From: "Phil Paskos" Subject: Re: [PRR] H21 with differernt trucks Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 00:15:15 -0500 I wonder how much they cost against what they were using? Phil > Gary, > > I think that the problem with these was not the roller > bearings, but the placement of them inside the wheelface. > Maintenance would have been a real problem in this > extremely dirty application. Also I wonder if the shorter > axle and the attendant loading was a problem. And there is > the reality that they may have been too "different". As you > have probably noticed, inside bearings never did take off > for freight usage. > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > > On Sat, 30 Nov 2002 18:01:03 -0500 (EST) > mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) wrote: > > Bill, > > > > Those trucks were an experimental design with inside > > roller > > bearings. Timkin was invloved with these. I believe a > > 100 car train was > > equiped for a test. Not sure why the idea didn't fly. We > > all know what > > roller bearings can do...Gary > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Rick Schoch Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 01:00:25 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR-Modeling] H21 with different trucks Aren't these the inside-bearing trucks that the previous guys were talking about? Or am I missing something? HAHAHA...Anyway, they do look like an inaccessible maintenance problem, like the disc brakes the PRR also shunned on passenger cars. (I remember a Budd Silverliner which I'm pretty sure was 261 testing the tread brakes through Ardmore with the test wiring going through the windows.) Meself I remember 70 ton hoppers with Andrews trucks being pushed up Merion Hill by the BS24's. I remember comparing the bearings on those pushers with the outside bearings on what I now know were the E44's, and watching the caps go round, a little kid at ground level ca. 1961, then getting a better perspective and marveling at how the yellow ball cars had those outside bearing caps. I still have a thing for friction bearing Bettendorf trucks though. Tug ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> ˇFREE Health Insurance Quotes-eHealthInsurance.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/1.voSB/RnFFAA/46VHAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] H21 with differernt trucks Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 08:07:28 -0700 Bob and all. In the Wayner book, "CARS OF THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD", there is a picture of a coach (P70 I believe) equipped with inboard bearing trucks...remarkable similar to the Superliner truck of a more modern era...but it too was considered unsucessful at the time. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 10:10:51 EST Subject: [PRR] South Wind consists Just to add another detail to the NP dome issue, the book Midwest Florida Streamliners by R. LyleKey Jr. gives the years of operation for these cars as follows: 1959-60 South Wind and City of Miami 1964-68 South Wind and City of Miami As I previously indicated, this was the NP slab-side Budd dome car which later, to the best of my knowledge, was the dome on the Amrtrak Capitol Limited. >From 1971 to a date I haven't determined, domes returned to the Amtrak South Wind successor. Fluted side MP domes came to the IC City of Miami in 1968. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Holly Open House dates Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 10:25:37 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C29923.FD6C6640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lewis: I assume you could not make it on Saturday. You have a few = more dates. A surprise to me was a member brought up a version of the = Broadway Limited built by the late Bill Wolfer. I can't make it today, but hope to be there one day of the next two = weekends. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Weldon Greiger=20 To: Lewis J. Matt PhD=20 Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Holly Open House dates SURE!!! Take I-75 in Michigan to exit #98. Head west on East Holly = Road to the first traffic signal. ( about 5 miles) As you turn right at the light, we are the second door on the right. = The Club is in the old Holly Theatre. The old marquee is still visible. If you come from US 23, exit at the Linden/Silver Lake exit # 79. = Drive about 1 mile to Leroy in Fenton. Turn left and cross the former = GTW Holly Sub and turn right on to Main Street (Grange Hall Road). At = that point follow the signs, "To I-75". Travel about 4 miles and turn = right at the second traffic light. North Holly Road (Saginaw Street). = Drive about 1 mile south. On the left will be the old Holly Theatre. Come see the trains. Later in the day, I'll have my Q-2 and HH-1 = running. If anyone from this list identifies themselves, I'll drag out = 2 of George Kohs' GG-1's again later in the day. I will have an A-B set = of BP-20's running separately from a BP-20 A an EP-22 A paired = together. I may add an AP-2- (Alco PA to that duo) I also will have a = pair of I1sa's double headed. The GP-9 A and B will periodically run as = well. You want to see PRR in 2 rail "O" scale, today is the day. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lewis J. Matt PhD=20 To: Weldon Greiger=20 Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 7:34 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Holly Open House dates Since you responded on the PRR talk list, should we assume that we = are all invited? Wouldn't it be nice, then, to include directions? Lew Matt ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Weldon Greiger=20 To: Floydefoust@aol.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 9:20 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: Holly Open House dates Hi Floyd: We are open this weekend, Friday Saturday and Sunday = Noon to 5 PM. December 1 & 2 and December 8 & 9,, Y'all come !!! I will be there this Saturday All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Floydefoust@aol.com=20 To: crashtech@chartermi.net=20 Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 7:17 AM Subject: Holly Open House dates Hi Weldon, I haven't seen any flyers on your open house dates this holiday = season. Is the club open on weekends between now and Christmas? What = hours? Thanks, Floyd ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C29923.FD6C6640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lewis:   I = assume you could=20 not make it on Saturday.  You have a few more dates.  A = surprise to me=20 was a member brought up a version of the Broadway Limited built by the = late Bill=20 Wolfer.
 
I can't make it today, = but hope to be=20 there one day of the next two weekends.
 
All the best to you and = yours     Weldon
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Weldon=20 Greiger
Sent: Saturday, November 30, = 2002 9:50=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Holly = Open House=20 dates

SURE!!!   = Take I-75 in=20 Michigan to exit #98.  Head west on East Holly Road to the first = traffic=20 signal.  ( about 5 miles)
As you turn right at = the=20 light, we are the second door on the right.  The Club is in = the old=20 Holly Theatre.  The old marquee is still visible.
 
If you come from US = 23, exit at the=20 Linden/Silver Lake exit  # 79.  Drive about 1 mile to Leroy = in=20 Fenton.  Turn left and cross the former GTW Holly Sub and = turn right=20 on to Main Street (Grange Hall Road).  At that point follow the = signs,=20 "To I-75".  Travel about 4 miles and turn right at the = second=20 traffic light. North Holly Road (Saginaw Street).  Drive about 1 = mile=20 south.  On the left will be the old Holly Theatre.
 
Come see the = trains.  Later in=20 the day, I'll have my Q-2 and HH-1 running.  If anyone from this = list=20 identifies themselves, I'll drag out 2 of George Kohs' GG-1's again = later in=20 the day.  I will have an A-B set of BP-20's running separately = from =20 a BP-20 A an EP-22 A paired together. I may add an AP-2- (Alco PA = to that=20 duo)  I also will have a pair of I1sa's double headed.  The = GP-9 A=20 and B will periodically run as well.
 
You want to see PRR = in 2 rail "O"=20 scale, today is the day.
 
All the best to you = and=20 yours     Weldon
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lewis = J. Matt=20 PhD
Sent: Saturday, November 30, = 2002 7:34=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Holly = Open House=20 dates

Since you responded on the PRR talk = list,=20 should we assume that we are all invited?  Wouldn't it be nice, = then,=20 to include directions?
 
Lew Matt
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Weldon Greiger
To: Floydefoust@aol.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com
Sent: Friday, November 29, = 2002 9:20=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] Re: Holly = Open House=20 dates

Hi = Floyd:   We are=20 open this weekend, Friday Saturday and Sunday  Noon to 5=20 PM.
 
December 1 & = 2 and December=20 8 & 9,, Y'all come !!!
 
I will be there = this=20 Saturday
 
All the best to = you and=20 yours     Weldon
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Floydefoust@aol.com =
To: crashtech@chartermi.net =
Sent: Friday, November = 29, 2002=20 7:17 AM
Subject: Holly Open House = dates

Hi Weldon,

I haven't seen any flyers = on your=20 open house dates this holiday season.  Is the club open on = weekends=20 between now and Christmas?   What=20 hours?

Thanks,
Floyd=20 =
= ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C29923.FD6C6640-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 12:20:52 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] X33a Hi All, Does anyone have a good side shot of an X33a? I would prefer Shadow Keystone, but Circle Keystone would work too if all the data was legible. Any help would be most appreciated! Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 12:33:41 EST Subject: [PRR] Shadow Keystone and Circle keystone --part1_129.1c4885ef.2b1ba1f5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, I was wondering about the Shadow Keystones and the circle Keystones? Were these time specific, or put on certain cars? I suspect time specific! Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001 PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_129.1c4885ef.2b1ba1f5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List,

I was wondering about the Shadow Keystones and the circle Keystones?  Were these time specific, or put on certain cars?  I suspect time specific! 

Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001
PRRT&HS  #7136
List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo
 --part1_129.1c4885ef.2b1ba1f5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 12:20:52 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] X33a Hi All, Does anyone have a good side shot of an X33a? I would prefer Shadow Keystone, but Circle Keystone would work too if all the data was legible. Any help would be most appreciated! Thanks Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: [PRR] 5011 class Texans Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 15:41:59 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C29950.2F8872A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gents: Does anyone know who built the 5011 class Santa Fe Texas types that were = leased by the PRR? Larry ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C29950.2F8872A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gents:
 
Does anyone know who built the 5011 = class Santa Fe=20 Texas types that were leased by the PRR?
 
Larry
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C29950.2F8872A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 17:28:14 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] 5011 class Texans Greetings to Larry and the List: 25 engines, blt by Baldwin 1944, road #s 5011-5035 Source: Drury's Guide to North American Steam Locomotives, Kalmbach. Dan Cupper --------------------------- > Larry Reynolds wrote: > > Gents: > > Does anyone know who built the 5011 class Santa Fe Texas types that > were leased by the PRR? > > Larry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 16:42:43 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - H-21 with different trucks] From: Beth Caples Those trucks are cool. I should model them them just because they are different. Then listen to the critics who say "It ain't prototypical"! Then show them the evidence! John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] 5011 class Texans Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 16:06:36 -0700 FWIW, almost all of Santa Fe's steam locomotives were built by Baldwin...including these. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Sun, 1 Dec 2002 15:41:59 -0500 "Larry Reynolds" wrote: > Gents: > > Does anyone know who built the 5011 class Santa Fe Texas > types that were leased by the PRR? > > Larry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 21:15:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Shadow Keystone and Circle keystone Mike, They are time specific. The shadow Keystone was applied beginning in February 1954 and lasted until 1959. Following the shadow keystone was the plain keystone which lasted until the end of PRR. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: SUVCWORR@aol.com From: RichofScot@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 21:20:48 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] X33a Bill: There are two side shots of the X33a in the PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment vol 2 pg 42. Both as SK2a and all the data is readily visible. Rich Orr "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 21:20:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] X33a Bill: There are two side shots of the X33a in the PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment vol 2 pg 42. Both as SK2a and all the data is readily visible. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] 46th St and Race St Engine Houses Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 19:37:54 -0800 It seems there are a number of yards that need to be addressed. I can only remember as far back as the Penn Central doing some light switching in the area, so perhaps someone can fill in all the details for me. According to the map of Zoo on Mark Bej's site, there was something called the 37th street yard behind Zoo tower between 40th street and the start up to the highline. I think I've seen photos of coal cars in this yard. Was this storage for the power plant near 30th st station? Not on the map, but I've seen pictures, was another yard on the Pittsburgh-NY side of the Zoo Wye. I'm recalling an arial photo in Pennsy Power 3, I think. What was this called, and what was it for? Then between 40th and 44th sts, was just running tracks? At least that's what it was during Penn Central. Then west of 44th st, the tracks widen out into another yard. Is this what is being referred to as 46th st yard? Then things narrow and go under the track 4 jumpover at 52nd and more yard tracks continue all the way to Overbrook. Is this what is being referred to as 52nd st yard? This had passenger equipment at one time? I seem to recall it mainly having high-cube box cars. John -----Original Message----- From: Bill To: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Cc: John Cooper ; zootowerprr@webtv.net ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, November 29, 2002 4:55 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] 46th St and Race St Engine Houses >Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr wrote: >> >> Down by 46th street was the engine terminal, freight transfer, and freight >> yard. 52nd was for coaches. The yard spans a good number of block before >> 46th and after 52nd. 46th street yard then continues directly into Zoo >> interlock then 30th street. > >The coach yard extended to at least the 57th/59th Street bridge (which >currently divides the abandoned Acme warehouse from Pierce-Phelps at the >railroad level). The Overbrook High baseball field was on the >Pierce-Phelps side and was also a staging area for the PRSL coaches. >One of the PHL Chapter PRRT&HS members told me of the experience of >playing on '37 'Brook baseball team and seeing one of the streamlined >K4's being out in the yard area. He lost his concentration so >much/often from staring at the engine that the coach took him out of the >game! > >Bill Morlitz > > > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of John >> Cooper >> Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 1:59 PM >> To: zootowerprr@webtv.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com >> Subject: Re: [PRR] 46th St and Race St Engine Houses >> >> > The 46th street Engine House was "in" the 52nd Street Yard. 48th >> >and Parkside Ave was the location of the roundhouse. >> >> Looking at some maps and satelite imagery, it looks like it would have been >> in the "northeast" corner of the yard, out where some running tracks ran >> along the north perimeter of the yard. Is this correct? The satelite >> imagery from 1992 shows something round in that area. Would that have been >> the turntable? >> >> > "Race St." is the engine pit at 30th Street Station next to the >> >Penn Coach Yard. >> >> Oh, I know where that is. Thanks. >> >> John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 23:50:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] 46th St and Race St Engine Houses Hello John, The "37 Street Yard" at one time was used to store passenger equipment. That was before 30th street station,Penn Coach yard was completed. Like you, most of the photos I've seen of the 37th street yards had loaded coal cars. "MI" Switch Cabin (44th Street) was at the west end of the 37th street yard. I don't know why the coal being stored at 37th street but there were a few large coal dealers on Parkside Ave. The other yard you are referring to is the Mantua Freight yard. That was for E/B trains out of 52nd yard. Later years it held M of W and bad order cars. PRR closed up shop in the 1960s. Penn Central was still using parts of 52nd street yard. Lots of weeds. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 23:49:41 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] 46th St and Race St Engine Houses John Cooper asked> Not on the map, but I've seen pictures, was another yard on the Pittsburgh-NY side of the Zoo Wye. I'm recalling an aerial photo in Pennsy Power 3, I think. What was this called, and what was it for? We called it Mantua yard - it was the Philadelphia Division's MW yard. I ordered work trains out of there when General Foreman on the track lowering project on ML NY-PHL between 33rd and Diamond Streets in 1964. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 00:06:28 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. via Lines West) In a message dated 11/21/02 1:11:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > Subject: TRS-Tank Reefer Stock > From: "Al Buchan" > Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:12:29 -0500 > > Well at least one person wanted to hear more about the PRR westbound TRS > arranged freight service. > > Because of the imbalance of loads eastward and mtys westward in tank, > reefer and stock cars the PRR ran mty trains of these classes of cars > back west using the arranged freight symbol TRS - Tanks-Reefers-Stock. > These ran at least in the 1920s and 1930s. I don't have any 1940s > arranged freight service schedules, but they don't appear in the 1950 > ones I have. Here's the line up of daily TRS trains from the January > 1928 GN 234-A. > > TRS > > 1 Meadows-Chicago 4:00 p.m. - 6:30 p.m. 4th day > 3 Harrisburg-East St. Louis 7:30 p.m. - 12:30 a.m. 5th day > 5 Greenville-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 2:00 p.m.- 8:00 p.m. > 7 Waverly-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 4:00 p.m.-10:00 p.m. > 9 Bay View-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3, or PG19) 2:00 a.m.-11:30 a.m. > 11 52d Street (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 3:00 a.m.-1:00 > p.m. > 13 Conway-Crestline 4:30 p.m.-12:01 p.m. > 15 Altoona-Crestline (included mty foreign boxcars)1:30 a.m.-10:00 a.m. > 29 Greenwich (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 6:00 p.m.-7:00 > a.m. > 33 Edge Moor-Harrisburg 8:30 p.m.-8:00 a.m. > > PG19 was a Harrisburg-Pitcairn train > > > Al > Just a thought, but... When I look at these schedules, I'm struck by the wonders of the Per Diem system that existed back then. Basically, one of the few cost items a railroad could actually see (and therefore attempt to control) was per diem, the rental charge paid daily for a foreign car remaining on the railroad at midnight. Sometimes management went ape over this. Many are the tales of local operations that nightly sought to dump foreign cars on somebody else's tracks by 11:59 pm -- it's always seemed the smaller the road, the more bizarre the tale (see for example the recent book on the Interstate Railroad). On the other hand, here we find the mighty Pennsylvania Railroad with some of the same problems. Of course, as a terminating railroad, the PRR will always receive more carloads than it can load back. Most roads found they had 4 eastbounds for every westbound; the Pennsy had to be similar. And for specialized equipment, it's often impossible to find loads for the return trip -- that's part of the problem when you have specialized equipment. In addition, there was always the operating attitude that loads were important, and empties were just a nuisance. In reality, the empty return cycle was vital to maintain traffic. Especially for these tanks, stock, and reefers, the supply of cars was finite. If the cars were not returned promptly, there would be no more loads. And so the Pennsy organized itself to return these special cars, perhaps more swiftly than for regular boxes, gons, and hoppers. Also, this special service may have been aimed toward the special interchange points used for perishable traffic -- in towns like Cincinnati, I've learned that perishables and stock had their own interchange arrangement, different from the masses of "dead freight". You could also see perishables trains coming out of Chicago, departing from differentiated yards/interchange points. Normally the empties were headed back to these same points. Given all this, it's still interesting how these schedules are arranged. Notice that all the western TRS cars for Chicago or for St. Louis funnel into two trains west of Pittsburgh -- TRS1 and TRS3. The quirky thing about this is that (if I'm reading the schedule right), the Chicago train arrives with 11 hours 30 minutes until midnight (the per diem hour). But the St. Louis schedule arrives with 23 hours and 30 minutes until midnight. I don't think this timing is an accident. Both these places were termed "gateways", which in the peculiar language of traffic means bottleneck. Ridiculous as it might seem to an outsider, doing interchange in a big town, through a forest of interlockings and under various dispatchers and authorities, was the toughest job in railroading, and took forever, with wild delays every day. Chicago was bad enough. But I've heard rumors that St. Louis was much worse -- even with the TRRA handling the lion's share of interchange traffic -- and this schedule seems to confirm it. BTW, no facts at all, but I've also heard rumors that two of the PRR's least productive yards were Undercliff in Cincinnati and Rose Lake in St. Louis. Other than age and the fact they were both "westbound" terminals (i.e., most of their traffic was interchanged), I have no idea why. One request -- please, no notes about "I can't believe X took so long". As an operator of 2600 assigned appliance cars in the 70's, my organization was lucky to load each of our cars once every 28 days -- when the weather was OK and there was no grain harvest to siphon off cars. Turnover got worse if you did something really stupid like load a car to New England. Railroading used to be SLOW, guys. It's one of the things that lost so much traffic to trucks. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 00:08:32 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. via Lines West) In a message dated 11/21/02 1:11:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > Subject: TRS-Tank Reefer Stock > From: "Al Buchan" > Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:12:29 -0500 > > Well at least one person wanted to hear more about the PRR westbound TRS > arranged freight service. > > Because of the imbalance of loads eastward and mtys westward in tank, > reefer and stock cars the PRR ran mty trains of these classes of cars > back west using the arranged freight symbol TRS - Tanks-Reefers-Stock. > These ran at least in the 1920s and 1930s. I don't have any 1940s > arranged freight service schedules, but they don't appear in the 1950 > ones I have. Here's the line up of daily TRS trains from the January > 1928 GN 234-A. > > TRS > > 1 Meadows-Chicago 4:00 p.m. - 6:30 p.m. 4th day > 3 Harrisburg-East St. Louis 7:30 p.m. - 12:30 a.m. 5th day > 5 Greenville-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 2:00 p.m.- 8:00 p.m. > 7 Waverly-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 4:00 p.m.-10:00 p.m. > 9 Bay View-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3, or PG19) 2:00 a.m.-11:30 a.m. > 11 52d Street (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 3:00 a.m.-1:00 > p.m. > 13 Conway-Crestline 4:30 p.m.-12:01 p.m. > 15 Altoona-Crestline (included mty foreign boxcars)1:30 a.m.-10:00 a.m. > 29 Greenwich (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 6:00 p.m.-7:00 > a.m. > 33 Edge Moor-Harrisburg 8:30 p.m.-8:00 a.m. > > PG19 was a Harrisburg-Pitcairn train > > > Al > Just a thought, but... When I look at these schedules, I'm struck by the wonders of the Per Diem system that existed back then. Basically, one of the few cost items a railroad could actually see (and therefore attempt to control) was per diem, the rental charge paid daily for a foreign car remaining on the railroad at midnight. Sometimes management went ape over this. Many are the tales of local operations that nightly sought to dump foreign cars on somebody else's tracks by 11:59 pm -- it's always seemed the smaller the road, the more bizarre the tale (see for example the recent book on the Interstate Railroad). On the other hand, here we find the mighty Pennsylvania Railroad with some of the same problems. Of course, as a terminating railroad, the PRR will always receive more carloads than it can load back. Most roads found they had 4 eastbounds for every westbound; the Pennsy had to be similar. And for specialized equipment, it's often impossible to find loads for the return trip -- that's part of the problem when you have specialized equipment. In addition, there was always the operating attitude that loads were important, and empties were just a nuisance. In reality, the empty return cycle was vital to maintain traffic. Especially for these tanks, stock, and reefers, the supply of cars was finite. If the cars were not returned promptly, there would be no more loads. And so the Pennsy organized itself to return these special cars, perhaps more swiftly than for regular boxes, gons, and hoppers. Also, this special service may have been aimed toward the special interchange points used for perishable traffic -- in towns like Cincinnati, I've learned that perishables and stock had their own interchange arrangement, different from the masses of "dead freight". You could also see perishables trains coming out of Chicago, departing from differentiated yards/interchange points. Normally the empties were headed back to these same points. Given all this, it's still interesting how these schedules are arranged. Notice that all the western TRS cars for Chicago or for St. Louis funnel into two trains west of Pittsburgh -- TRS1 and TRS3. The quirky thing about this is that (if I'm reading the schedule right), the Chicago train arrives with 11 hours 30 minutes until midnight (the per diem hour). But the St. Louis schedule arrives with 23 hours and 30 minutes until midnight. I don't think this timing is an accident. Both these places were termed "gateways", which in the peculiar language of traffic means bottleneck. Ridiculous as it might seem to an outsider, doing interchange in a big town, through a forest of interlockings and under various dispatchers and authorities, was the toughest job in railroading, and took forever, with wild delays every day. Chicago was bad enough. But I've heard rumors that St. Louis was much worse -- even with the TRRA handling the lion's share of interchange traffic -- and this schedule seems to confirm it. BTW, no facts at all, but I've also heard rumors that two of the PRR's least productive yards were Undercliff in Cincinnati and Rose Lake in St. Louis. Other than age and the fact they were both "westbound" terminals (i.e., most of their traffic was interchanged), I have no idea why. One request -- please, no notes about "I can't believe X took so long". As an operator of 2600 assigned appliance cars in the 70's, my organization was lucky to load each of our cars once every 28 days -- when the weather was OK and there was no grain harvest to siphon off cars. Turnover got worse if you did something really stupid like load a car to New England. Railroading used to be SLOW, guys. It's one of the things that lost so much traffic to trucks. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 00:06:28 EST Subject: [PRR] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. via Lines West) --part1_84.3628cc0.2b1c4454_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/21/02 1:11:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > Subject: TRS-Tank Reefer Stock > From: "Al Buchan" > Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:12:29 -0500 > > Well at least one person wanted to hear more about the PRR westbound TRS > arranged freight service. > > Because of the imbalance of loads eastward and mtys westward in tank, > reefer and stock cars the PRR ran mty trains of these classes of cars > back west using the arranged freight symbol TRS - Tanks-Reefers-Stock. > These ran at least in the 1920s and 1930s. I don't have any 1940s > arranged freight service schedules, but they don't appear in the 1950 > ones I have. Here's the line up of daily TRS trains from the January > 1928 GN 234-A. > > TRS > > 1 Meadows-Chicago 4:00 p.m. - 6:30 p.m. 4th day > 3 Harrisburg-East St. Louis 7:30 p.m. - 12:30 a.m. 5th day > 5 Greenville-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 2:00 p.m.- 8:00 p.m. > 7 Waverly-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 4:00 p.m.-10:00 p.m. > 9 Bay View-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3, or PG19) 2:00 a.m.-11:30 a.m. > 11 52d Street (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 3:00 a.m.-1:00 > p.m. > 13 Conway-Crestline 4:30 p.m.-12:01 p.m. > 15 Altoona-Crestline (included mty foreign boxcars)1:30 a.m.-10:00 a.m. > 29 Greenwich (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 6:00 p.m.-7:00 > a.m. > 33 Edge Moor-Harrisburg 8:30 p.m.-8:00 a.m. > > PG19 was a Harrisburg-Pitcairn train > > > Al > Just a thought, but... When I look at these schedules, I'm struck by the wonders of the Per Diem system that existed back then. Basically, one of the few cost items a railroad could actually see (and therefore attempt to control) was per diem, the rental charge paid daily for a foreign car remaining on the railroad at midnight. Sometimes management went ape over this. Many are the tales of local operations that nightly sought to dump foreign cars on somebody else's tracks by 11:59 pm -- it's always seemed the smaller the road, the more bizarre the tale (see for example the recent book on the Interstate Railroad). On the other hand, here we find the mighty Pennsylvania Railroad with some of the same problems. Of course, as a terminating railroad, the PRR will always receive more carloads than it can load back. Most roads found they had 4 eastbounds for every westbound; the Pennsy had to be similar. And for specialized equipment, it's often impossible to find loads for the return trip -- that's part of the problem when you have specialized equipment. In addition, there was always the operating attitude that loads were important, and empties were just a nuisance. In reality, the empty return cycle was vital to maintain traffic. Especially for these tanks, stock, and reefers, the supply of cars was finite. If the cars were not returned promptly, there would be no more loads. And so the Pennsy organized itself to return these special cars, perhaps more swiftly than for regular boxes, gons, and hoppers. Also, this special service may have been aimed toward the special interchange points used for perishable traffic -- in towns like Cincinnati, I've learned that perishables and stock had their own interchange arrangement, different from the masses of "dead freight". You could also see perishables trains coming out of Chicago, departing from differentiated yards/interchange points. Normally the empties were headed back to these same points. Given all this, it's still interesting how these schedules are arranged. Notice that all the western TRS cars for Chicago or for St. Louis funnel into two trains west of Pittsburgh -- TRS1 and TRS3. The quirky thing about this is that (if I'm reading the schedule right), the Chicago train arrives with 11 hours 30 minutes until midnight (the per diem hour). But the St. Louis schedule arrives with 23 hours and 30 minutes until midnight. I don't think this timing is an accident. Both these places were termed "gateways", which in the peculiar language of traffic means bottleneck. Ridiculous as it might seem to an outsider, doing interchange in a big town, through a forest of interlockings and under various dispatchers and authorities, was the toughest job in railroading, and took forever, with wild delays every day. Chicago was bad enough. But I've heard rumors that St. Louis was much worse -- even with the TRRA handling the lion's share of interchange traffic -- and this schedule seems to confirm it. BTW, no facts at all, but I've also heard rumors that two of the PRR's least productive yards were Undercliff in Cincinnati and Rose Lake in St. Louis. Other than age and the fact they were both "westbound" terminals (i.e., most of their traffic was interchanged), I have no idea why. One request -- please, no notes about "I can't believe X took so long". As an operator of 2600 assigned appliance cars in the 70's, my organization was lucky to load each of our cars once every 28 days -- when the weather was OK and there was no grain harvest to siphon off cars. Turnover got worse if you did something really stupid like load a car to New England. Railroading used to be SLOW, guys. It's one of the things that lost so much traffic to trucks. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_84.3628cc0.2b1c4454_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/21/02 1:11:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:



Subject: TRS-Tank Reefer Stock
From: "Al Buchan" <abbuchan1@comcast.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:12:29 -0500

Well at least one person wanted to hear more about the PRR westbound TRS
arranged freight service.

Because of the imbalance of loads eastward and mtys westward in tank,
reefer and stock cars the PRR ran mty trains of these classes of cars
back west using the arranged freight symbol TRS - Tanks-Reefers-Stock.
These ran at least in the 1920s and 1930s. I don't have any 1940s
arranged freight service schedules, but they don't appear in the 1950
ones I have. Here's the line up of daily TRS trains from the January
1928 GN 234-A.

TRS

1  Meadows-Chicago 4:00 p.m. - 6:30 p.m. 4th day
3  Harrisburg-East St. Louis 7:30 p.m. - 12:30 a.m. 5th day
5  Greenville-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 2:00 p.m.- 8:00 p.m.
7  Waverly-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 4:00 p.m.-10:00 p.m.
9  Bay View-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3, or PG19) 2:00 a.m.-11:30 a.m.
11 52d Street (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 3:00 a.m.-1:00
p.m.
13 Conway-Crestline 4:30 p.m.-12:01 p.m.
15 Altoona-Crestline (included mty foreign boxcars)1:30 a.m.-10:00 a.m.
29 Greenwich (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 6:00 p.m.-7:00
a.m.
33 Edge Moor-Harrisburg 8:30 p.m.-8:00 a.m.

PG19 was a Harrisburg-Pitcairn train


Al


Just a thought, but...

When I look at these schedules, I'm struck by the wonders of the Per Diem system that existed back then.  Basically, one of the few cost items a railroad could actually see (and therefore attempt to control) was per diem, the rental charge paid daily for a foreign car remaining on the railroad at midnight. 

Sometimes management went ape over this.  Many are the tales of local operations that nightly sought to dump foreign cars on somebody else's tracks by 11:59 pm -- it's always seemed the smaller the road, the more bizarre the tale (see for example the recent book on the Interstate Railroad).

On the other hand, here we find the mighty Pennsylvania Railroad with some of the same problems.  Of course, as a terminating railroad, the PRR will always receive more carloads than it can load back.  Most roads found they had 4 eastbounds for every westbound; the Pennsy had to be similar.  And for specialized equipment, it's often impossible to find loads for the return trip -- that's part of the problem when you have specialized equipment.  In addition, there was always the operating attitude that loads were important, and empties were just a nuisance.

In reality, the empty return cycle was vital to maintain traffic.  Especially for these tanks, stock, and reefers, the supply of cars was finite.  If the cars were not returned promptly, there would be no more loads.  And so the Pennsy organized itself to return these special cars, perhaps more swiftly than for regular boxes, gons, and hoppers.  Also, this special service may have been aimed toward the special interchange points used for perishable traffic -- in towns like Cincinnati, I've learned that perishables and stock had their own interchange arrangement, different from the masses of "dead freight".  You could also see perishables trains coming out of Chicago, departing from differentiated yards/interchange points.  Normally the empties were headed back to these same points.

Given all this, it's still interesting how these schedules are arranged.  Notice that all the western TRS cars for Chicago or for St. Louis funnel into two trains west of Pittsburgh -- TRS1 and TRS3.  The quirky thing about this is that (if I'm reading the schedule right), the Chicago train arrives with 11 hours 30 minutes until midnight (the per diem hour).  But the St. Louis schedule arrives with 23 hours and 30 minutes until midnight.

I don't think this timing is an accident.  Both these places were termed "gateways", which in the peculiar language of traffic means bottleneck.  Ridiculous as it might seem to an outsider, doing interchange in a big town, through a forest of interlockings and under various dispatchers and authorities, was the toughest job in railroading, and took forever, with wild delays every day.

Chicago was bad enough.  But I've heard rumors that St. Louis was much worse -- even with the TRRA handling the lion's share of interchange traffic -- and this schedule seems to confirm it.  BTW, no facts at all, but I've also heard rumors that two of the PRR's least productive yards were Undercliff in Cincinnati and Rose Lake in St. Louis.  Other than age and the fact they were both "westbound" terminals (i.e., most of their traffic was interchanged), I have no idea why.

One request -- please, no notes about "I can't believe X took so long".  As an operator of 2600 assigned appliance cars in the 70's, my organization was lucky to load each of our cars once every 28 days -- when the weather was OK and there was no grain harvest to siphon off cars.  Turnover got worse if you did something really stupid like load a car to New England.  Railroading used to be SLOW, guys.  It's one of the things that lost so much traffic to trucks.

                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_84.3628cc0.2b1c4454_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 00:08:32 EST Subject: [PRR] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. via Lines West) --part1_f2.25a8533c.2b1c44d0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/21/02 1:11:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > Subject: TRS-Tank Reefer Stock > From: "Al Buchan" > Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:12:29 -0500 > > Well at least one person wanted to hear more about the PRR westbound TRS > arranged freight service. > > Because of the imbalance of loads eastward and mtys westward in tank, > reefer and stock cars the PRR ran mty trains of these classes of cars > back west using the arranged freight symbol TRS - Tanks-Reefers-Stock. > These ran at least in the 1920s and 1930s. I don't have any 1940s > arranged freight service schedules, but they don't appear in the 1950 > ones I have. Here's the line up of daily TRS trains from the January > 1928 GN 234-A. > > TRS > > 1 Meadows-Chicago 4:00 p.m. - 6:30 p.m. 4th day > 3 Harrisburg-East St. Louis 7:30 p.m. - 12:30 a.m. 5th day > 5 Greenville-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 2:00 p.m.- 8:00 p.m. > 7 Waverly-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 4:00 p.m.-10:00 p.m. > 9 Bay View-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3, or PG19) 2:00 a.m.-11:30 a.m. > 11 52d Street (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 3:00 a.m.-1:00 > p.m. > 13 Conway-Crestline 4:30 p.m.-12:01 p.m. > 15 Altoona-Crestline (included mty foreign boxcars)1:30 a.m.-10:00 a.m. > 29 Greenwich (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 6:00 p.m.-7:00 > a.m. > 33 Edge Moor-Harrisburg 8:30 p.m.-8:00 a.m. > > PG19 was a Harrisburg-Pitcairn train > > > Al > Just a thought, but... When I look at these schedules, I'm struck by the wonders of the Per Diem system that existed back then. Basically, one of the few cost items a railroad could actually see (and therefore attempt to control) was per diem, the rental charge paid daily for a foreign car remaining on the railroad at midnight. Sometimes management went ape over this. Many are the tales of local operations that nightly sought to dump foreign cars on somebody else's tracks by 11:59 pm -- it's always seemed the smaller the road, the more bizarre the tale (see for example the recent book on the Interstate Railroad). On the other hand, here we find the mighty Pennsylvania Railroad with some of the same problems. Of course, as a terminating railroad, the PRR will always receive more carloads than it can load back. Most roads found they had 4 eastbounds for every westbound; the Pennsy had to be similar. And for specialized equipment, it's often impossible to find loads for the return trip -- that's part of the problem when you have specialized equipment. In addition, there was always the operating attitude that loads were important, and empties were just a nuisance. In reality, the empty return cycle was vital to maintain traffic. Especially for these tanks, stock, and reefers, the supply of cars was finite. If the cars were not returned promptly, there would be no more loads. And so the Pennsy organized itself to return these special cars, perhaps more swiftly than for regular boxes, gons, and hoppers. Also, this special service may have been aimed toward the special interchange points used for perishable traffic -- in towns like Cincinnati, I've learned that perishables and stock had their own interchange arrangement, different from the masses of "dead freight". You could also see perishables trains coming out of Chicago, departing from differentiated yards/interchange points. Normally the empties were headed back to these same points. Given all this, it's still interesting how these schedules are arranged. Notice that all the western TRS cars for Chicago or for St. Louis funnel into two trains west of Pittsburgh -- TRS1 and TRS3. The quirky thing about this is that (if I'm reading the schedule right), the Chicago train arrives with 11 hours 30 minutes until midnight (the per diem hour). But the St. Louis schedule arrives with 23 hours and 30 minutes until midnight. I don't think this timing is an accident. Both these places were termed "gateways", which in the peculiar language of traffic means bottleneck. Ridiculous as it might seem to an outsider, doing interchange in a big town, through a forest of interlockings and under various dispatchers and authorities, was the toughest job in railroading, and took forever, with wild delays every day. Chicago was bad enough. But I've heard rumors that St. Louis was much worse -- even with the TRRA handling the lion's share of interchange traffic -- and this schedule seems to confirm it. BTW, no facts at all, but I've also heard rumors that two of the PRR's least productive yards were Undercliff in Cincinnati and Rose Lake in St. Louis. Other than age and the fact they were both "westbound" terminals (i.e., most of their traffic was interchanged), I have no idea why. One request -- please, no notes about "I can't believe X took so long". As an operator of 2600 assigned appliance cars in the 70's, my organization was lucky to load each of our cars once every 28 days -- when the weather was OK and there was no grain harvest to siphon off cars. Turnover got worse if you did something really stupid like load a car to New England. Railroading used to be SLOW, guys. It's one of the things that lost so much traffic to trucks. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_f2.25a8533c.2b1c44d0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/21/02 1:11:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:



Subject: TRS-Tank Reefer Stock
From: "Al Buchan" <abbuchan1@comcast.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:12:29 -0500

Well at least one person wanted to hear more about the PRR westbound TRS
arranged freight service.

Because of the imbalance of loads eastward and mtys westward in tank,
reefer and stock cars the PRR ran mty trains of these classes of cars
back west using the arranged freight symbol TRS - Tanks-Reefers-Stock.
These ran at least in the 1920s and 1930s. I don't have any 1940s
arranged freight service schedules, but they don't appear in the 1950
ones I have. Here's the line up of daily TRS trains from the January
1928 GN 234-A.

TRS

1  Meadows-Chicago 4:00 p.m. - 6:30 p.m. 4th day
3  Harrisburg-East St. Louis 7:30 p.m. - 12:30 a.m. 5th day
5  Greenville-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 2:00 p.m.- 8:00 p.m.
7  Waverly-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 4:00 p.m.-10:00 p.m.
9  Bay View-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3, or PG19) 2:00 a.m.-11:30 a.m.
11 52d Street (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 3:00 a.m.-1:00
p.m.
13 Conway-Crestline 4:30 p.m.-12:01 p.m.
15 Altoona-Crestline (included mty foreign boxcars)1:30 a.m.-10:00 a.m.
29 Greenwich (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 6:00 p.m.-7:00
a.m.
33 Edge Moor-Harrisburg 8:30 p.m.-8:00 a.m.

PG19 was a Harrisburg-Pitcairn train


Al


Just a thought, but...

When I look at these schedules, I'm struck by the wonders of the Per Diem system that existed back then.  Basically, one of the few cost items a railroad could actually see (and therefore attempt to control) was per diem, the rental charge paid daily for a foreign car remaining on the railroad at midnight. 

Sometimes management went ape over this.  Many are the tales of local operations that nightly sought to dump foreign cars on somebody else's tracks by 11:59 pm -- it's always seemed the smaller the road, the more bizarre the tale (see for example the recent book on the Interstate Railroad).

On the other hand, here we find the mighty Pennsylvania Railroad with some of the same problems.  Of course, as a terminating railroad, the PRR will always receive more carloads than it can load back.  Most roads found they had 4 eastbounds for every westbound; the Pennsy had to be similar.  And for specialized equipment, it's often impossible to find loads for the return trip -- that's part of the problem when you have specialized equipment.  In addition, there was always the operating attitude that loads were important, and empties were just a nuisance.

In reality, the empty return cycle was vital to maintain traffic.  Especially for these tanks, stock, and reefers, the supply of cars was finite.  If the cars were not returned promptly, there would be no more loads.  And so the Pennsy organized itself to return these special cars, perhaps more swiftly than for regular boxes, gons, and hoppers.  Also, this special service may have been aimed toward the special interchange points used for perishable traffic -- in towns like Cincinnati, I've learned that perishables and stock had their own interchange arrangement, different from the masses of "dead freight".  You could also see perishables trains coming out of Chicago, departing from differentiated yards/interchange points.  Normally the empties were headed back to these same points.

Given all this, it's still interesting how these schedules are arranged.  Notice that all the western TRS cars for Chicago or for St. Louis funnel into two trains west of Pittsburgh -- TRS1 and TRS3.  The quirky thing about this is that (if I'm reading the schedule right), the Chicago train arrives with 11 hours 30 minutes until midnight (the per diem hour).  But the St. Louis schedule arrives with 23 hours and 30 minutes until midnight.

I don't think this timing is an accident.  Both these places were termed "gateways", which in the peculiar language of traffic means bottleneck.  Ridiculous as it might seem to an outsider, doing interchange in a big town, through a forest of interlockings and under various dispatchers and authorities, was the toughest job in railroading, and took forever, with wild delays every day.

Chicago was bad enough.  But I've heard rumors that St. Louis was much worse -- even with the TRRA handling the lion's share of interchange traffic -- and this schedule seems to confirm it.  BTW, no facts at all, but I've also heard rumors that two of the PRR's least productive yards were Undercliff in Cincinnati and Rose Lake in St. Louis.  Other than age and the fact they were both "westbound" terminals (i.e., most of their traffic was interchanged), I have no idea why.

One request -- please, no notes about "I can't believe X took so long".  As an operator of 2600 assigned appliance cars in the 70's, my organization was lucky to load each of our cars once every 28 days -- when the weather was OK and there was no grain harvest to siphon off cars.  Turnover got worse if you did something really stupid like load a car to New England.  Railroading used to be SLOW, guys.  It's one of the things that lost so much traffic to trucks.

                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_f2.25a8533c.2b1c44d0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Al Buchan Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 04:14:45 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. via Lines The other interesting thing about the TRS movements is: The tankers were mostly private owned cars and were pretty much commodity specific unless you wanted to clean them out, not worth it for what little liquid back haul there might have been. Back in those pre continental pipeline days most of it was probably e'wd POL products, not all of the sophisticated haz mat chemicals and gases we ship today. The stock cars were pretty much tainted for any loads other than animals and maybe hides (which usually went in tainted boxcars) and the relatively small doors precluded loading much anyway. I did see some NP stock cars back in the '70s being used in MW service hauling ties. I put a photo of it in the MRG article on tie renewal. The reefers, some private owned, but not all, had to be kept pristine for meat and perishable loading so one was somewhat restricted as what could be reloaded. I have seen them back haul newspapers and magazines. Al "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 04:14:45 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. The other interesting thing about the TRS movements is: The tankers were mostly private owned cars and were pretty much commodity specific unless you wanted to clean them out, not worth it for what little liquid back haul there might have been. Back in those pre continental pipeline days most of it was probably e'wd POL products, not all of the sophisticated haz mat chemicals and gases we ship today. The stock cars were pretty much tainted for any loads other than animals and maybe hides (which usually went in tainted boxcars) and the relatively small doors precluded loading much anyway. I did see some NP stock cars back in the '70s being used in MW service hauling ties. I put a photo of it in the MRG article on tie renewal. The reefers, some private owned, but not all, had to be kept pristine for meat and perishable loading so one was somewhat restricted as what could be reloaded. I have seen them back haul newspapers and magazines. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 01:41:35 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. via Lines Hi Rick, All, Just a couple more parts to the puzzle: >From Pitt. Ett #31 4/28/40 TRS-1 daily by? "BO" at 6:00 PM "C" at 8:00 PM "JD" at 8:40 PM "DR" at 9:15 PM "WG" at 11:15 PM "CM" at 12:30 AM TRS-3 daily by? "WG" at 3:00 PM >From Pitt. ETT #12 4/24/49 TRS-7 daily by? Slope at 7:15 PM "C" at 10:00 PM "JD" at 11:00 PM TRS-9 daily by? Slope at 7:45 AM "C" at 9:45 AM "JD" at 10:45 AM So, it seems that as late as 1949 there were still two of them scheduled. I'll be including them in my ops. Thanks for the heads-up on these, Al. Respectfully, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:34:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. via Lines In a message dated 12/1/02 11:21:23 PM, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << When I look at these schedules, I'm struck by the wonders of the Per Diem system that existed back then. Basically, one of the few cost items a railroad could actually see (and therefore attempt to control) was per diem, the rental charge paid daily for a foreign car remaining on the railroad at midnight. >> We used to call this charge "demurrage". Railroads paid a fee for the use of another carriers cars after a certain time. Getting cars back to the owner to avoid this daily charge was the basis for the motto, "Don't Stand Me Still." I also remember a revenue producing activity on the Pennsy where we'd set aside a track in a yard and do repair work to foreign cars, grab irons, etc. The was a billing convention attached to the larger interline agreement that required repairs on defective foreign cars before the moved much further and to guarantee that a carrier would actually repair a car rather than moose it to the next interchange, billable rates were pretty good. This turned into a revenue producing activity. I noted the previous messages on the movement of empty cars. The one that always interested me was the annual migration of empty box cars on the Pennsy. Yards had cooper tracks. We'd hire provisional labor (most would be called the "homeless" today) to clean and recooper cars. The waste from the cars, just dumped on the ground, smelled to high heaven and attracked/fed some of the biggest rats I ever saw. The doors would be blocked open and the cars cleaned on the inside. Then, a piece of plywood like material would be fastened in the doorhole, leaving the top half open. The box cars would be sent west in great numbers to accommodate the annual grain harvests. Grain would be poured through the open portion of the doorhole into the empty box. The cars would then move to harbors (Baltimore?) for shipping and to elevators for local storage. The availability of these fleets of coopered boxes was an annual debate and was actually a newsworthy item that was covered in the business sections of Midwest newspapers. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Randy" Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:09:06 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. via Lines West) According to the 1955 freight schedules WC-1's consist included empty tank cars and empty Packing House Company refrigerator cars from New York and Brooklyn Piers and stations, Jersey City, NYC RR, 68th St. for Enola and beyond. Randy "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Randy" Subject: Re: [PRR] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. via Lines Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:09:06 -0500 According to the 1955 freight schedules WC-1's consist included empty tank cars and empty Packing House Company refrigerator cars from New York and Brooklyn Piers and stations, Jersey City, NYC RR, 68th St. for Enola and beyond. Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:12:39 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article belatedly: > Some of the world's greatest nitpickers with respect to > layouts are those that have no layout of their own. If a layout be presented as fantasy, or 'an interpretation', fine. If a layout be presented as a representation of an existing, or past, real railroad, that really existed, as it existed on a specific date, then, i suggest comments as to accuracy are apropos, regardless of source. Some nits are bigger than others. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Work Equipment Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:24:44 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 15 Nov, "Bill Volkmer" wrote: > At Northumberland, all units made it home every night except the RS-11 > stationed at Weigh Scales. [ ... ] Did Wilkes-Barre have a set of assigned locos? The CT1000e notes "shops" there, but I'm still looking for more info about them, and pictures. Thanks! Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:22:14 -0600 Get a life -----Original Message----- From: davep [mailto:davep@quik.com] Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 10:13 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article belatedly: > Some of the world's greatest nitpickers with respect to > layouts are those that have no layout of their own. If a layout be presented as fantasy, or 'an interpretation', fine. If a layout be presented as a representation of an existing, or past, real railroad, that really existed, as it existed on a specific date, then, i suggest comments as to accuracy are apropos, regardless of source. Some nits are bigger than others. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. via Lines Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:29:20 -0500 Marty and list, "Per Diem", or as it is now known "car hire", is TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from "Demurrage". Car hire is paid from one railroad to another for the use of its equiment, while demurrage is charged to CUSTOMERS for detaining cars on sidetrack for longer than the "free time" specified in the Demurrage Tariff. This used to be 24 hours from the first 7:00 AM to load, and 48 hours from the first 7:00 AM to unload, with weekends free if the car still in free time. There was normally no "free time" involved in car hire, except in reciprocal switching, where the car remained in the road haul carrier's account. Car hire is now paid in hourly and mileage increments and is deregulated, resulting in much "horse-trading" among the few Class I's left. The little guys just get screwed. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 10:34 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. via Lines West) > > In a message dated 12/1/02 11:21:23 PM, RickTipton@aol.com writes: > > << > When I look at these schedules, I'm struck by the wonders of the Per Diem > system that existed back then. Basically, one of the few cost items a > railroad could actually see (and therefore attempt to control) was per diem, > the rental charge paid daily for a foreign car remaining on the railroad at > midnight. > >> > > We used to call this charge "demurrage". Railroads paid a fee for the use of > another carriers cars after a certain time. Getting cars back to the owner to > avoid this daily charge was the basis for the motto, "Don't Stand Me Still." > > I also remember a revenue producing activity on the Pennsy where we'd set > aside a track in a yard and do repair work to foreign cars, grab irons, etc. > The was a billing convention attached to the larger interline agreement that > required repairs on defective foreign cars before the moved much further and > to guarantee that a carrier would actually repair a car rather than moose it > to the next interchange, billable rates were pretty good. This turned into a > revenue producing activity. > > I noted the previous messages on the movement of empty cars. The one that > always interested me was the annual migration of empty box cars on the > Pennsy. Yards had cooper tracks. We'd hire provisional labor (most would be > called the "homeless" today) to clean and recooper cars. The waste from the > cars, just dumped on the ground, smelled to high heaven and attracked/fed > some of the biggest rats I ever saw. The doors would be blocked open and the > cars cleaned on the inside. Then, a piece of plywood like material would be > fastened in the doorhole, leaving the top half open. The box cars would be > sent west in great numbers to accommodate the annual grain harvests. Grain > would be poured through the open portion of the doorhole into the empty box. > The cars would then move to harbors (Baltimore?) for shipping and to > elevators for local storage. > > The availability of these fleets of coopered boxes was an annual debate and > was actually a newsworthy item that was covered in the business sections of > Midwest newspapers. > > Regards, Marty > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:56:38 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Cadwell, Marvin L wrote: > Get a life The quest for historical accuracy does not preclude a life. Justify your question. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 12:19:44 -0500 From: davep Subject: [PRR] High Tension/William Wister Haines Conversation with a friend reminds me... How about a novel about life on a crew installing RR catenary? It's been written: High Tension by William Wister Haines. The catch is its way out of print, no copies on ebay, nor alibris.com, nor Amazon. So it has to be dug out of used book stores. Haines wrote lots of Hollywood movies, (cf www.imdb.com). High Tension was a four part serial in Saturday Evening Post, 1938, reprinted at the time in book form. One report says that Haines worked as a lineman, dunno... To me, most of the technodetail rings true... best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: howdy@qnet.com Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:24:10 GMT Good morning List, I have been reading the comments on the Dec article since the Dec MR came out. I have come to the conclusion that people have a lot more space for their model railroads than I do. My calculations show that it would take a room 20' X 30' to do "just" the horseshoe curve in HO scale. From what I have been reading, if you don't do it exactly right, you can't do it at all. I wonder how many modelers are going to have to change the name of the curve on their layout. I really wonder if anyone has built a horseshoe curve to scale. I'll stop here before I wonder too far and get lost. I just hope that if there is anyone else out there building a model railroad based on the Pennsy he has not be scared off from sharing it with the rest of us. Howdy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:58:21 EST Subject: [PRR] CK to SK1a in 1954 --part1_151.183bc6e0.2b1d155d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/2/02 12:12:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > List, > > I was wondering about the Shadow Keystones and the circle Keystones? Were > these time specific, or put on certain cars? I suspect time specific! > > Mike Schock > Mike, See (my) extended discussion of these phases in last summer's Keystone. The short answer is that CK was replaced by the first of four SK schemes in January of 1954. The last of the four SK schemes was replaced by Plain Keystone in 1961. As we're trying to demonstrate in the Keystone article, the dates of these phases were essentially the same for boxcars, covered hoppers, flats, stock cars, open hoppers, and cabin cars. BTW, if you're a modeler, sometimes too much knowledge can get you into trouble. I have a friend with a beautiful Rio Grande layout set around 1950, and one of his PRR cars is a beautifully weathered X48 PS1, which of course was delivered in early 1954 in SK1a. He's asked me if the car's too new -- and I answered "don't ask". It looks great on the layout -- even if it's an anachronism (don't tell him). Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_151.183bc6e0.2b1d155d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/2/02 12:12:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


List,

I was wondering about the Shadow Keystones and the circle Keystones?  Were
these time specific, or put on certain cars?  I suspect time specific! 

Mike Schock


Mike,

See (my) extended discussion of these phases in last summer's Keystone.  The short answer is that CK was replaced by the first of four SK schemes in January of 1954.  The last of the four SK schemes was replaced by Plain Keystone in 1961.

As we're trying to demonstrate in the Keystone article, the dates of these phases were essentially the same for boxcars, covered hoppers, flats, stock cars, open hoppers, and cabin cars.

BTW, if you're a modeler, sometimes too much knowledge can get you into trouble.  I have a friend with a beautiful Rio Grande layout set around 1950, and one of his PRR cars is a beautifully weathered X48 PS1, which of course was delivered in early 1954 in SK1a.  He's asked me if the car's too new -- and I answered "don't ask".
It looks great on the layout -- even if it's an anachronism (don't tell him).

                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_151.183bc6e0.2b1d155d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 16:09:36 -0500 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] EFS17m #7187 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_XEH/wfAsIrpS2wD2B64SPQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello, List. Yesterday I 'won' on ebay the subject n-scale GP9, and spent a few fruitless hours during the night trying to pin down where the engine's home base was. I started with Keystone Crossings, and hit as many links as I could before my brain fizzled @ 0400. Could someone point me to a database where I could dig the information out? Thanks in advance. Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." --Boundary_(ID_XEH/wfAsIrpS2wD2B64SPQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Hello, List.
 
Yesterday I 'won' on ebay the subject n-scale GP9, and spent a few fruitless hours during the night trying to pin down where the engine's home base was.
 
I started with Keystone Crossings, and hit as many links as I could before my brain fizzled @ 0400.
 
Could someone point me to a database where I could dig the information out?  Thanks in advance.
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail."
 
--Boundary_(ID_XEH/wfAsIrpS2wD2B64SPQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Bowser hoppers reviewed in 1/03 MR Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 21:43:14 +0000 Are the Bowser hoppers reviewed in the January '03 MR just a new paint scheme or are they a new model of the GLa? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] EFS17m #7187 Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:22:50 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C29A27.71179C50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 7187 was based at Enola from the time it was built, until almost the end of the Pennsy when the GP-9 fleet was dispersed to outlying points. I believe most were re-assigned to the Columbus area. At the height of the Geep era there were 314 GP-9s assigned to Enola which meant at least 10 MIs each day of the month. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Zak Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 4:10 PM To: prr-talk Subject: [PRR] EFS17m #7187 Hello, List. Yesterday I 'won' on ebay the subject n-scale GP9, and spent a few fruitless hours during the night trying to pin down where the engine's home base was. I started with Keystone Crossings, and hit as many links as I could before my brain fizzled @ 0400. Could someone point me to a database where I could dig the information out? Thanks in advance. Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C29A27.71179C50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

7187 was based at Enola from the = time it was built, until almost the end of the Pennsy when the GP-9 fleet was dispersed to outlying points.  I believe most were re-assigned = to the Columbus area.  At the = height of the Geep era there were 314 GP-9s assigned to Enola = which meant at least 10 MIs each day of the = month.

 

Bill = V.

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf = Of Zak
Sent: Monday, December = 02, 2002 4:10 PM
To: prr-talk
Subject: [PRR] EFS17m = #7187

 

Hello, = List.

 

Yesterday I 'won' on ebay = the subject n-scale GP9, and spent a few fruitless hours during the night = trying to pin down where the engine's home base was.

 

I started with Keystone = Crossings, and hit as many links as I could before my brain fizzled @ = 0400.

 

Could someone point me to a = database where I could dig the information out?  Thanks in = advance.

 

Zak=


"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail."
 

------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C29A27.71179C50-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:18:40 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser hoppers reviewed in 1/03 MR >Are the Bowser hoppers reviewed in the January '03 MR just a new paint scheme >or are they a new model of the GLa? Thanks, Norm Bell Norm, The web site indicates that PRR Plain keystone (the scheme reviewed) is on its third series...so I think that MR just got around to reviewing the car. I think I posted my preliminary review to PRR-talk on 10/19/01, more than a YEAR ago . BTW, the MR review was of note in several respects. First, as expected, it utterly fails to note any of the shortcomings of the car (e.g. the poorly done Wine door lock and absent cross braces, both done WAYYY better on the H21a). In addition, about the only critical statement made in the review is technically incorrect! The review states that cars were converted to power handbrakes at some point and the model can be modified to reflect this. However, IRRC, Teichmoeller's book indicates that many (most?) of these cars (except BW) were equipped with staff brakes until scrapping. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:27:17 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Bowser N5 paint Hey, did I miss somehting? I was just scrolling through the Bowser site and noticed that 3 of 4 N5c paint schemes for "old style" had FCC cupolas and roofs! Is this now the standard for these kits? If it is...way to go Bowser (finally)! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 21:03:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Kris Kollar built the beautiful L1s --part1_51.280b3ff6.2b1d6adb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/25/2002 12:47:39 AM Central Standard Time, dougkisala@yahoo.com writes: > > Kris Kollar built the beautiful L1s Mike that appeared > in Mainline Modeller in 2000. I don't want to steal > credit for his excellent work. I highly recommend the > articles, which appeared in the January and February > 2000 issues, for anyone interested in detailing an > L1s. > > Photos of Kris's K-4 are on the web at : http://www.rpmrail.org/1Person.htm Al --part1_51.280b3ff6.2b1d6adb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/25/2002 12:47:39 AM Central Standard Time, dougkisala@yahoo.com writes:



Kris Kollar built the beautiful L1s Mike that appeared
in Mainline Modeller in 2000.  I don't want to steal
credit for his excellent work.  I highly recommend the
articles, which appeared in the January and February
2000 issues, for anyone interested in detailing an
L1s. 



Photos of Kris's K-4 are on the web at :
http://www.rpmrail.org/1Person.htm

Al --part1_51.280b3ff6.2b1d6adb_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:08:34 -0800 Subject: [PRR] research on the Manhattan Transfer Hi, I was recently in touch with Roger Keyser, with regard to some research on the Manhattan Transfer station. In a message to me, he wrote the following: It seems to me that a few nice photos at M.T. appeared, sometime ago, in one of the magazines........either in The Keystone or the Philadelphia Chapter's High Line. Anyone know anything more specific on the above? I'd like to obtain a copy of this, but without more info I won't be able to do much. Any help or clues appreciated. Thanks - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Frank & Andrea Amato" Subject: [PRR] Trackside Philly content Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 20:38:59 -0600 Hi all, I'm finalizing my Xmas book list, and I'd like to know the extent of PRR coverage in Morning Sun's Trackside Philadelphia. Specifically, any Delaware Avenue Branch coverage? Thanks in advance, Frank ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] High Tension/William Wister Haines Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 22:53:02 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 2 Dec, davep wrote: > Conversation with a friend reminds me... > > How about a novel about life on a crew installing > RR catenary? > > It's been written: > High Tension > by William Wister Haines. > > The catch is its way out of print, no copies on ebay, > nor alibris.com, nor Amazon. So it has to be dug out > of used book stores. Three copies are available through www.abebooks.com, for $35 or $45. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 22:49:31 EST Subject: [PRR] Budd-Michelon Car --part1_91.26e6d73b.2b1d83cb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Was perusing a consignment book at Caboose Hobbies, Illustrated Treasury of Budd Passenger Cars, 1931 - 1981. It showed all of the Budd-Michelon cars including the Pennsy car. An unusual feature was that the Pennsy car had a trailer car which none of the other pictured Michelon cars had. Also, the Pennsy car was the only one to have the headlight mounted above the front windows instead of below it as on the other cars. Both the power car and the trailer had six wheel trucks with no means of passing between cars while in motion. Unfortunately there was only a floor plan drawing of the standard design for this car which does not match the Pennsy car with its trailer car. The book does not go into much detail and is basically a "pictures with captions" book. Evan Leisey --part1_91.26e6d73b.2b1d83cb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit    Was perusing a consignment book at Caboose Hobbies,  Illustrated Treasury of Budd Passenger Cars, 1931 - 1981.  It showed all of the Budd-Michelon cars including the Pennsy car.   An unusual feature was that the Pennsy car had a trailer car which none of the other pictured Michelon cars had.  Also, the Pennsy car was the only one to have the headlight mounted above the front windows instead of below it as on the other cars.  Both the power car and the trailer had six wheel trucks with no means of passing between cars while in motion. 
   Unfortunately there was only a floor plan drawing of the standard design for this car which does not match the Pennsy car with its trailer car.  The book does not go into much detail and is basically a "pictures with captions" book.

Evan Leisey --part1_91.26e6d73b.2b1d83cb_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 22:48:58 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] High Tension/William Wister Haines On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, davep wrote: > Conversation with a friend reminds me... > > How about a novel about life on a crew installing > RR catenary? > > It's been written: > High Tension > by William Wister Haines. > > The catch is its way out of print, no copies on ebay, > nor alibris.com, nor Amazon. So it has to be dug out now that my order is confirmed i will tell you that abebooks.com shows a few copies available;-) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 22:55:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] 46th St and Race St Engine Houses John........ I do belive that is Valley Tower. I'm looking at my interlocking charts from 1959 and "Valley" is remote from Overbrook Tower (6-3-1941). Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 23:20:59 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] The foolishness of grain car supply In a message dated 12/2/02 10:34:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, LAMA assoc writes: > > > I noted the previous messages on the movement of empty cars. The one that > always interested me was the annual migration of empty box cars on the > Pennsy. Yards had cooper tracks. We'd hire provisional labor (most would be > called the "homeless" today) to clean and recooper cars. The waste from the > cars, just dumped on the ground, smelled to high heaven and attracked/fed > some of the biggest rats I ever saw. The doors would be blocked open and > the cars cleaned on the inside. Then, a piece of plywood like material > would be fastened in the doorhole, leaving the top half open. The box cars > would be sent west in great numbers to accommodate the annual grain > harvests. Grain would be poured through the open portion of the doorhole > into the empty box. The cars would then move to harbors (Baltimore?) for > shipping and to elevators for local storage. > > The availability of these fleets of coopered boxes was an annual debate and > was actually a newsworthy item that was covered in the business sections of > Midwest newspapers. > > Regards, Marty > Marty and all, Always a fascinating subject -- we had assigned 40' DF cars without wood linings and would still get them back, two months late, after harvest season, smelling of rotten grain that hung behind the DF bars. Just the thing to load brand new GE appliances in! Incidentally, you mention the annual tea dance called "car availability". The original theory must have been that railroads were so profitable that they could keep extra cars around for use just a few weeks a year. Then mechanized harvesting came in, and as an ag friend of mine put it, "you could harvest out a county in two weeks instead of the six it used to take". This meant the local railroad road got ONE turn on its grain cars during the harvest, instead of the former two or more. Things were just as silly at the other end -- ports or terminal elevators couldn't unload all those cars promptly, and the backed-up cars became a giant warehouse on wheels. The common man had been taught that a railroad was a monopoly (true), and that it could be an endless fount of both taxes and services (false) -- when railroads went broke, it was considered unnatural or bad management, and they were "reorganized" to continue operations. Also, remember that railroading wasn't just a "monopoly", it was a monopoly regulated by the United States Congress through their agent, the Interstate Commerce Commission. That's right, the ICC didn't report to the executive branch -- it was a creation of the legislature. Thus, every elevator operator had two Senators and a Representative on speed-dial -- and if the railroad didn't come up with the cars, then the political blackmail started via the ICC. As long as the Congress, the ICC, and the newspapers could be trusted to raise a stink over car supply ("an obligation of a regulated carrier") every fall, this was a perennial discussion, with lots of heat and absolutely no light. The last thing anybody wanted to say was, nobody wanted all those extra cars except the elevator operators, and they only wanted them for a few weeks a year -- as long as they didn't have to pay for them. At the same time, notice nobody beat up the truckers -- you couldn't haul grain in a dry van, and there were only so many grain trucks out there. There was no assumption of "serving the common good" nor "obscene profits" for the grain truckers. Even before general rail deregulation, the concept of multicar rates for 100-ton grain hoppers started to take off. This had a number of beneficial effects. First, the smallest elevators couldn't ship multicar -- usually, couldn't even top load a grain hopper. Then, the lower rates available for multicar put additional cost pressure on the little elevator, their profits disappeared, and many closed. And finally, not every little branch line could handle 100-ton cars, so the business was further concentrated. Contraction fed on itself -- as branch lines' shippers lost business, the branch lines themselves lost carloadings and became abandonment candidates. In addition, the remaining elevators found that there were only so many grain hoppers out there. Some leased covered hoppers of their own, and some didn't, but all transitioned to more of a year-around shipper, storing the harvest bulge closer to its origin. The cries of the grain shipper was heard no more in the halls of Congress. Once the railroads got the ball rolling on grain hoppers, there was a frenzy of 40 foot boxcar scrappings (and a few lengthenings to 50 feet). Basically, almost the whole fleet of unequipped 40 foot cars disappeared between 1968 and 1978, and the face of American railroading was changed forever. This was one of the major effects that took the Equipment Register from 1.7 million cars to 0.7 million cars -- and made the jumbo covered hopper the most numerous type of car. One more thing -- not all Congressmen were as dumb as you might think. After some years of attending the annual frenzied Congressional investigations into boxcar supply, one congressman stated "the problem of boxcar supply is as substantial as shadows dancing on the wall of a cave". One can read more about this in Ralph Nader's The Interstate Commerce Omission and, I believe, Albro Martin's Enterprise Denied -- good books that dealt with old subjects in surprising new ways. Hope this entertained you... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 23:20:59 EST Subject: [PRR] The foolishness of grain car supply --part1_184.12d67c34.2b1d8b2b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/2/02 10:34:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, LAMA assoc writes: > > > I noted the previous messages on the movement of empty cars. The one that > always interested me was the annual migration of empty box cars on the > Pennsy. Yards had cooper tracks. We'd hire provisional labor (most would be > called the "homeless" today) to clean and recooper cars. The waste from the > cars, just dumped on the ground, smelled to high heaven and attracked/fed > some of the biggest rats I ever saw. The doors would be blocked open and > the cars cleaned on the inside. Then, a piece of plywood like material > would be fastened in the doorhole, leaving the top half open. The box cars > would be sent west in great numbers to accommodate the annual grain > harvests. Grain would be poured through the open portion of the doorhole > into the empty box. The cars would then move to harbors (Baltimore?) for > shipping and to elevators for local storage. > > The availability of these fleets of coopered boxes was an annual debate and > was actually a newsworthy item that was covered in the business sections of > Midwest newspapers. > > Regards, Marty > Marty and all, Always a fascinating subject -- we had assigned 40' DF cars without wood linings and would still get them back, two months late, after harvest season, smelling of rotten grain that hung behind the DF bars. Just the thing to load brand new GE appliances in! Incidentally, you mention the annual tea dance called "car availability". The original theory must have been that railroads were so profitable that they could keep extra cars around for use just a few weeks a year. Then mechanized harvesting came in, and as an ag friend of mine put it, "you could harvest out a county in two weeks instead of the six it used to take". This meant the local railroad road got ONE turn on its grain cars during the harvest, instead of the former two or more. Things were just as silly at the other end -- ports or terminal elevators couldn't unload all those cars promptly, and the backed-up cars became a giant warehouse on wheels. The common man had been taught that a railroad was a monopoly (true), and that it could be an endless fount of both taxes and services (false) -- when railroads went broke, it was considered unnatural or bad management, and they were "reorganized" to continue operations. Also, remember that railroading wasn't just a "monopoly", it was a monopoly regulated by the United States Congress through their agent, the Interstate Commerce Commission. That's right, the ICC didn't report to the executive branch -- it was a creation of the legislature. Thus, every elevator operator had two Senators and a Representative on speed-dial -- and if the railroad didn't come up with the cars, then the political blackmail started via the ICC. As long as the Congress, the ICC, and the newspapers could be trusted to raise a stink over car supply ("an obligation of a regulated carrier") every fall, this was a perennial discussion, with lots of heat and absolutely no light. The last thing anybody wanted to say was, nobody wanted all those extra cars except the elevator operators, and they only wanted them for a few weeks a year -- as long as they didn't have to pay for them. At the same time, notice nobody beat up the truckers -- you couldn't haul grain in a dry van, and there were only so many grain trucks out there. There was no assumption of "serving the common good" nor "obscene profits" for the grain truckers. Even before general rail deregulation, the concept of multicar rates for 100-ton grain hoppers started to take off. This had a number of beneficial effects. First, the smallest elevators couldn't ship multicar -- usually, couldn't even top load a grain hopper. Then, the lower rates available for multicar put additional cost pressure on the little elevator, their profits disappeared, and many closed. And finally, not every little branch line could handle 100-ton cars, so the business was further concentrated. Contraction fed on itself -- as branch lines' shippers lost business, the branch lines themselves lost carloadings and became abandonment candidates. In addition, the remaining elevators found that there were only so many grain hoppers out there. Some leased covered hoppers of their own, and some didn't, but all transitioned to more of a year-around shipper, storing the harvest bulge closer to its origin. The cries of the grain shipper was heard no more in the halls of Congress. Once the railroads got the ball rolling on grain hoppers, there was a frenzy of 40 foot boxcar scrappings (and a few lengthenings to 50 feet). Basically, almost the whole fleet of unequipped 40 foot cars disappeared between 1968 and 1978, and the face of American railroading was changed forever. This was one of the major effects that took the Equipment Register from 1.7 million cars to 0.7 million cars -- and made the jumbo covered hopper the most numerous type of car. One more thing -- not all Congressmen were as dumb as you might think. After some years of attending the annual frenzied Congressional investigations into boxcar supply, one congressman stated "the problem of boxcar supply is as substantial as shadows dancing on the wall of a cave". One can read more about this in Ralph Nader's The Interstate Commerce Omission and, I believe, Albro Martin's Enterprise Denied -- good books that dealt with old subjects in surprising new ways. Hope this entertained you... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_184.12d67c34.2b1d8b2b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/2/02 10:34:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, LAMA assoc writes:



I noted the previous messages on the movement of empty cars. The one that always interested me was the annual migration of empty box cars on the Pennsy. Yards had cooper tracks. We'd hire provisional labor (most would be called the "homeless" today) to clean and recooper cars. The waste from the cars, just dumped on the ground, smelled to high heaven and attracked/fed some of the biggest rats I ever saw. The doors would be blocked open and the cars cleaned on the inside. Then, a piece of plywood like material would be fastened in the doorhole, leaving the top half open. The box cars would be sent west in great numbers to accommodate the annual grain harvests. Grain would be poured through the open portion of the doorhole into the empty box. The cars would then move to harbors (Baltimore?) for shipping and to elevators for local storage.

The availability of these fleets of coopered boxes was an annual debate and was actually a newsworthy item that was covered in the business sections of Midwest newspapers.

Regards,  Marty


Marty and all,

Always a fascinating subject -- we had assigned 40' DF cars without wood linings and would still get them back, two months late, after harvest season, smelling of rotten grain that hung behind the DF bars.  Just the thing to load brand new GE appliances in!

Incidentally, you mention the annual tea dance called "car availability".  The original theory must have been that railroads were so profitable that they could keep extra cars around for use just a few weeks a year.  Then mechanized harvesting came in, and as an ag friend of mine put it, "you could harvest out a county in two weeks instead of the six it used to take".  This meant the local railroad road got ONE turn on its grain cars during the harvest, instead of the former two or more.

Things were just as silly at the other end -- ports or terminal elevators couldn't unload all those cars promptly, and the backed-up cars became a giant warehouse on wheels.

The common man had been taught that a railroad was a monopoly (true), and that it could be an endless fount of both taxes and services (false) -- when railroads went broke, it was considered unnatural or bad management, and they were "reorganized" to continue operations.  Also, remember that railroading wasn't just a "monopoly", it was a monopoly regulated by the United States Congress through their agent, the Interstate Commerce Commission.  That's right, the ICC didn't report to the executive branch -- it was a creation of the legislature.  Thus, every elevator operator had two Senators and a Representative on speed-dial -- and if the railroad didn't come up with the cars, then the political blackmail started via the ICC.

As long as the Congress, the ICC, and the newspapers could be trusted to raise a stink over car supply ("an obligation of a regulated carrier") every fall, this was a perennial discussion, with lots of heat and absolutely no light.  The last thing anybody wanted to say was, nobody wanted all those extra cars except the elevator operators, and they only wanted them for a few weeks a year -- as long as they didn't have to pay for them.

At the same time, notice nobody beat up the truckers -- you couldn't haul grain in a dry van, and there were only so many grain trucks out there.  There was no assumption of "serving the common good" nor "obscene profits" for the grain truckers.

Even before general rail deregulation, the concept of multicar rates for 100-ton grain hoppers started to take off.   This had a number of beneficial effects.  First, the smallest elevators couldn't ship multicar -- usually, couldn't even top load a grain hopper.  Then, the lower rates available for multicar put additional cost pressure on the little elevator, their profits disappeared, and many closed.  And finally, not every little branch line could handle 100-ton cars, so the business was further concentrated.  Contraction fed on itself -- as branch lines' shippers lost business, the branch lines themselves lost carloadings and became abandonment candidates.

In addition, the remaining elevators found that there were only so many grain hoppers out there.  Some leased covered hoppers of their own, and some didn't, but all transitioned to more of a year-around shipper, storing the harvest bulge closer to its origin.  The cries of the grain shipper was heard no more in the halls of Congress.

Once the railroads got the ball rolling on grain hoppers, there was a frenzy of 40 foot boxcar scrappings (and a few lengthenings to 50 feet).  Basically, almost the whole fleet of unequipped 40 foot cars disappeared between 1968 and 1978, and the face of American railroading was changed forever.  This was one of the major effects that took the Equipment Register from 1.7 million cars to 0.7 million cars -- and made the jumbo covered hopper the most numerous type of car.

One more thing -- not all Congressmen were as dumb as you might think.  After some years of attending the annual frenzied Congressional investigations into boxcar supply, one congressman stated "the problem of boxcar supply is as substantial as shadows dancing on the wall of a cave". 

One can read more about this in Ralph Nader's The Interstate Commerce Omission and, I believe, Albro Martin's Enterprise Denied -- good books that dealt with old subjects in surprising new ways.

Hope this entertained you...


                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_184.12d67c34.2b1d8b2b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 09:45:21 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: The foolishness of grain car supply In a message dated 12/2/02 10:20:59 PM, RickTipton writes: << Rick Tipton - Louisville KY (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) >> Rick - Thank you. Very interesting message. I left the Pennsy in 1966. But, I recall a section of almost every yard that was used to clean grain cars. In fact, many yards developed a distictive stench from the grain that was swept onto the ground and then rotted in the summer heat. I didn't realize the changes in grain handling nor the drop in the aggregate car inventory. Very interesting. I was on the Buckeye (Cincinnati) in the Swift Building from 6/1961 to 11/1962 and then went Indianapolis (Division?) and then Cleveland (Lake Division?). Again, thanks. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Grain Car cleanout tracks etc. Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 10:09:40 -0500 We had grain car cleanout tracks at Elmira, Buffalo, and Northumberland on the Northern Division. The troops used to sell the "sweepings" to the local chicken farmers and put the revenue into the "coffee fund". This paid for Christmas Parties and company picnics galore. In Northumberland Enginehouse we remodeled the entire office complex with paint and carpeting courtesy of the cleanout track. Them were the daze. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of LAMAassoc@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 9:45 AM To: RickTipton@aol.com; PennsyWest@egroups.com; PRR@egroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: The foolishness of grain car supply In a message dated 12/2/02 10:20:59 PM, RickTipton writes: << Rick Tipton - Louisville KY (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) >> Rick - Thank you. Very interesting message. I left the Pennsy in 1966. But, I recall a section of almost every yard that was used to clean grain cars. In fact, many yards developed a distictive stench from the grain that was swept onto the ground and then rotted in the summer heat. I didn't realize the changes in grain handling nor the drop in the aggregate car inventory. Very interesting. I was on the Buckeye (Cincinnati) in the Swift Building from 6/1961 to 11/1962 and then went Indianapolis (Division?) and then Cleveland (Lake Division?). Again, thanks. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 10:06:16 -0500 From: davep Subject: Michelin Re: [PRR] Budd-Michelon Car > Was perusing a consignment book at Caboose Hobbies, > Illustrated Treasury of Budd Passenger Cars, 1931 - 1981. > It showed all of the Budd-Michelon Web based and other searches work best when spelt as the manufacturer spelt it: Michelin (the tire company.....) (this is neither a spelling 'plaint, nor a nit pick.... 8)>>) -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 10:06:40 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] High Tension/William Wister Haines >> High Tension >> by William Wister Haines. >>The catch is its way out of print, no copies on ebay, >>nor alibris.com, nor Amazon. So it has to be dug out > now that my order is confirmed i will tell you that > abebooks.com shows a few copies available;-) Good. Missed those. And. I have one. Not for sale 8)>> (just thought some others might enjoy...) -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Al Buchan Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 10:22:10 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR] Re: The foolishness of grain car supply Re cleaning cars. The clean out tracks in yards were used for cleaning out all sorts of left over commodities and packaging/bracing materials left in cars by consignees. Consignees were required to cleanout cars before releasing them for pickup by the serving road. But from what I observed, during my years in the field, not too many complied with this requirement. Shippers weren't too pleased to get a car that required cleaning before they could load it. Therefore, the railroads were saddled with the car cleaning chore. We had a cleanout track in Wheatland yard, however, most of the left over materials were wood bracing, cardboard, and metal strapping left over from load bracing and packaging. We mostly cleaned boxcars, gons and flatcars. Fortunately grain was not a very large commodity in the Shenango Valley. Car cleaning was done by my MW trackmen when they had time. Al "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 10:22:10 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: The foolishness of grain car supply Re cleaning cars. The clean out tracks in yards were used for cleaning out all sorts of left over commodities and packaging/bracing materials left in cars by consignees. Consignees were required to cleanout cars before releasing them for pickup by the serving road. But from what I observed, during my years in the field, not too many complied with this requirement. Shippers weren't too pleased to get a car that required cleaning before they could load it. Therefore, the railroads were saddled with the car cleaning chore. We had a cleanout track in Wheatland yard, however, most of the left over materials were wood bracing, cardboard, and metal strapping left over from load bracing and packaging. We mostly cleaned boxcars, gons and flatcars. Fortunately grain was not a very large commodity in the Shenango Valley. Car cleaning was done by my MW trackmen when they had time. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Kris Kollar L1s Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 15:29:17 +0000 I went to the URl listed and found the work Kris did to be excellent. Do any finished pictures in DGLE exist yet? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:55:01 -0800 (PST) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] Walthers Pullman-Standard 6-6-4 Sleeper --0-2050811003-1038934501=:61995 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii function SetDomain(d) { document.domain = d; }Hi, I saw that Walthers has a Pullman-Standard 6-6-4 Sleeper detailed for GN, ATSF, C&NW, SP, NP, Amtrak, D&RGW and PRR late scheme listed for februari 2003. http://www.walthers.com/exec/newproducts/ni/200302/Passenger Will this be another accurate new PRR model? Thanks, Geoffrey --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-2050811003-1038934501=:61995 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hi, I saw that Walthers has a Pullman-Standard 6-6-4 Sleeper detailed for GN, ATSF, C&NW, SP, NP, Amtrak, D&RGW and PRR late scheme listed for februari 2003. http://www.walthers.com/exec/newproducts/ni/200302/Passenger

Will this be another accurate new PRR model?

Thanks, Geoffrey


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-2050811003-1038934501=:61995-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers Pullman-Standard 6-6-4 Sleeper Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 17:33:56 +0000 Geoffrey and the List: I do not believe that the Pennsy ever had 6-6-4 sleepers. I do know that the NYC did but not the Pennsy. Ted Andrews >From: Geoffrey Van Dooren >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] Walthers Pullman-Standard 6-6-4 Sleeper >Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:55:01 -0800 (PST) > > >function SetDomain(d) { document.domain = d; }Hi, I saw that Walthers has a >Pullman-Standard 6-6-4 Sleeper detailed for GN, ATSF, C&NW, SP, NP, Amtrak, >D&RGW and PRR late scheme listed for februari 2003. >http://www.walthers.com/exec/newproducts/ni/200302/Passenger > >Will this be another accurate new PRR model? > >Thanks, Geoffrey > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up n _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 12:56:26 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers Pullman-Standard 6-6-4 Sleeper From: Jerry Britton On 12/3/02 12:33 PM, Ted Andrews (ted_andrews@msn.com) wrote: > I do not believe that the Pennsy ever had 6-6-4 sleepers. I do know that the > NYC did but not the Pennsy. Since you say you do not "believe", I'll concur. No 6-6-4's owned by the Pennsy. > > Ted Andrews > >> From: Geoffrey Van Dooren >> To: prr-talk@dsop.com >> Subject: [PRR] Walthers Pullman-Standard 6-6-4 Sleeper >> Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:55:01 -0800 (PST) >> >> >> function SetDomain(d) { document.domain = d; }Hi, I saw that Walthers has a >> Pullman-Standard 6-6-4 Sleeper detailed for GN, ATSF, C&NW, SP, NP, Amtrak, >> D&RGW and PRR late scheme listed for februari 2003. >> http://www.walthers.com/exec/newproducts/ni/200302/Passenger >> >> Will this be another accurate new PRR model? >> ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 12:59:07 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers Pullman-Standard 6-6-4 Sleeper The PRR never had any 6-6-4s. Neither did any of the connecting RRs that I can think of, except for the NH. These cars are apparently based on the PS pre-war versions of the cars. The NH is a post-war car, so its only a stand-in; but I may use it anyway, out of frustration! The ATSF 4-4-2 was a common transcon sleeper on the Broadway. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Geoffrey Van Dooren wrote: > Hi, I saw that Walthers has a Pullman-Standard 6-6-4 Sleeper detailed > for GN, ATSF, C&NW, SP, NP, Amtrak, D&RGW and PRR late scheme listed > for februari 2003. > http://www.walthers.com/exec/newproducts/ni/200302/Passenger > > Will this be another accurate new PRR model? > > Thanks, Geoffrey -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 13:08:50 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Walthers new passenger cars At: http://www.walthers.com/exec/newproducts/ni/200303/Passenger Walthers announced two cars which are of interest to PRR fans. The 4-4-2 is a prewar car which was on the PRR. Maybe they will do it in FOM colors some day :-))) PRR P85b coaches were 44 seat cars. Will the new Rivarossi 44 seat coaches be P85bs? :-))) At $40 each they better be much better than the old AHM stuff! (proper weight, proper trucks, proper paint, working diaphragms, interiors...) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 14:00:10 -0500 Subject: [PRR] It's That Time of Year, My Friends... From: Jerry Britton Time to decorate... http://kc.pennsyrr.com Seasons Greetings to All! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 14:53:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Summerhill Br/ Jumpover Pat and those interested Found a 1910 tack chart in T1 page 205.It shows the Summerhill branch connecting at "W" right at the interlocking. Anyone have a real track chart to confirm this? The same track shows the jumpover at mile post 265. Its Western connection on track four is at about mile post 264.5. A half mile or so before "W" Seems awful steep a ? What was the "Jumpover" at mile 265 used for? Was it for returning helpers to the South Fork Branch? East bound trains from the South Fork branch would have there helpers put on at "Fork" yes,no,maybe?--------Mark L----------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 15:49:11 EST Subject: [PRR] Cooper Tracks --part1_b9.2ade6dd4.2b1e72c7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For Rick (or Mark) I read, with interest, the grain car saga. I am not familiar, however, with the term cooper tracks or to "recooper cars". The term(s) obviously have something to do with getting box cars ready for grain service. Anyhow, please explain. BOB MARTIN, President & General Manager Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) A Penn Family Line --part1_b9.2ade6dd4.2b1e72c7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For Rick (or Mark)

I read, with interest, the grain car saga.  I am not familiar, however, with the term cooper tracks or to "recooper cars".  The term(s) obviously have something to do with getting box cars ready for grain service.  Anyhow, please explain.


BOB MARTIN, President & General Manager
Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale)
A Penn Family Line

--part1_b9.2ade6dd4.2b1e72c7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Cooper Tracks Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 16:14:23 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C29AE7.0BAA53B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The box cars used in grain service (Generally X-29s in later years) had a heavy cardboard liner stapled to the insides of the cars over the doorways. The wooden lining had the bottom two or three slats left open so that any grain that got behind the lining would fall to the floor and could be shoveled out or swept out. The consignees frequently used the box cars that were emptied out, out back, as trash receptacles and would throw reams of computer paper, old packing crates, cardboard boxes and what have you into the car. Before the car could be spotted for the next grain shipment, it had to go past a cooper track or cleanout track where the broken wood slats were replaced and the cardboard liners stapled into place. Bill Volkmer (Ex- PRR, still railroading 34 years later) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Cprrboss@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 3:49 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Cooper Tracks For Rick (or Mark) I read, with interest, the grain car saga. I am not familiar, however, with the term cooper tracks or to "recooper cars". The term(s) obviously have something to do with getting box cars ready for grain service. Anyhow, please explain. BOB MARTIN, President & General Manager Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) A Penn Family Line ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C29AE7.0BAA53B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The box cars = used in grain service (Generally X-29s in later years) had a heavy cardboard = liner stapled to the insides of the cars over the doorways.  The wooden lining had the = bottom two or three slats left open so that any grain that got behind the lining would = fall to the floor and could be shoveled out or swept = out.

 

The consignees frequently used the = box cars that were emptied out, out back, as trash receptacles and would = throw reams of computer paper, old packing crates, cardboard boxes and what = have you into the car.  Before the = car could be spotted for the next grain shipment, it had to go past a cooper track = or cleanout track where the broken wood slats were replaced and the = cardboard liners stapled into place.

 

Bill Volkmer (Ex- PRR, still = railroading 34 years later)

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf = Of Cprrboss@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December = 03, 2002 3:49 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Cooper = Tracks

 

For Rick (or Mark)

I read, with interest, the grain car saga.  I am not familiar, = however, with the term cooper tracks or to "recooper cars".  The = term(s) obviously have something to do with getting box cars ready for grain = service.  Anyhow, please explain.


BOB MARTIN, President & General Manager
Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) = (HO Scale)
A Penn Family Line

------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C29AE7.0BAA53B0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 16:23:59 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Cooper Tracks This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_R9CETJrlRX2mx/XnA3g6mQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Bob and other fans of coopering, Try not to get all cooped up over this. ;^ ) Cooper tracks were where boxcars that needed recoopering were spotted to be recoopered by the coopers. In other word, have repairs made to the cars interior wood lining by specialized carpenters. Any holes in grain cars permitted lading lose and a claim against the carrier, also permitted the entrance of rodents. As a noun, a cooper is a person who makes wooden tubs and barrels/ casks - or repairs wooded vessels. As a verb, to cooper or coopering (or recooper) is to is to make or repair the above. To work as a cooper. A cooperage is the products of a cooper or the place where coopers work (factory). Al --Boundary_(ID_R9CETJrlRX2mx/XnA3g6mQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Bob and other fans of coopering,
 
Try not to get all cooped up over this.  ;^ )
 
Cooper tracks were where boxcars that needed recoopering were spotted to be recoopered by the coopers.
 
In other word, have repairs made to the cars interior wood lining by specialized carpenters.
Any holes in grain cars permitted lading lose and a claim against the carrier, also permitted the entrance of rodents.
 
As a noun, a cooper is a person who makes wooden tubs and barrels/ casks - or repairs wooded vessels.
 
As a verb, to cooper or coopering (or recooper) is to is to make or repair the above. To work as a cooper.
 
A cooperage is the products of a cooper or the place where coopers work (factory). 
 
Al
--Boundary_(ID_R9CETJrlRX2mx/XnA3g6mQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 15:28:54 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Fw: Locomotives on the Marietta Branch? From: jeffrey d thomas I am trying to find out what locomotives, both steam and diesel, were used on the Marietta branch in the 1950's. I grew up there, but don't remember what engines were used. I saw some type steam engine there in the early 1950's, then it was all diesel. I do know that a pair of H20-44's were used sometime in the mid. 1950's. Thanks. Jeff Thomas Denton, Tx. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 13:45:36 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Summerhill Br/ Jumpover Hi Mark, All, OK, Mark. I'll try to piece it together with my inexpert observations from several resources. (And, please, anyone that knows this better feel free to jump in with info/corrections.) >From my "1953" Pitt. Div. Track Chart: Pitt. Div. starts at M.P. 237.3 according to chart. Summerhill Branch East Connection appears to be approx M.P. 264.1 (East of the South Fork Jumpover turnout by approx .3 mile.) Summerhill Branch West Connection appears to be approx M.P. 265.9 (Just west of the East Signal Bridge (2658?) of "SO" Interlocking) There is a note on the chart that states: "S.B. ?? Jumpover 264.51". The ?? are unreadable letters on my copy. It lines up with the actual bridge, not the east turnout, on the chart. >From my 1940 & 1949 Pitt. Div. ETTs: "W" is 26.5 miles west of Altoona Station which is .9 miles east of the Division Point (Approx Slope Tower) Doing the math would put "W" at M.P. 262.9. "W" is not clearly labeled on the Track Chart. Looking at my Track Chart and trying to cross reference to Mark Bej's site I am finding it difficult to pin down exactly just what and where "W" is/was. I see that it apparently gets it's name from Wilmore. I see a pair of signal bridges on the Interlocking Diagram for "SO/W" at Mark's site that are numbered 2612/2613 and 2636. Is this the interlocking? There are no crossovers. Do they only control access to and from the South Fork Branch? >From the 1945 CT1000C: Jct. Summerhill Branch East Conn. is 26.4 miles from Altoona St. Doing the math would put that at M.P. 262.8? Jct. Summerhill Branch West Conn. is 28.4 miles from Altoona St. Doing the math would put that at M.P. 264.8? So, I guess the bottom line is I am not going to be a lot of help here. The "Official Documents" seem to disagree by approx 1 mile +/- on the exact locations of these features. Of course I do not discount my inexperience in interpreting these documents as the source of the errors. As for what the Jumpover was used for I always "assumed" it was for trains of empties heading southward onto the branch to avoid having to cross the other three mains. If helpers were added to eastbounds off the branch at "Fork" it would make sense they would also use it to return to the branch. Hope I haven't confused things more. Respectfully, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Fw: Locomotives on the Marietta Branch? Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 17:02:44 -0500 Marietta Branch had 8939-8942 FS-20ms in the early 1960s when I was assigned to Canton Enginehouse as General Foreman of the Diesel Shop. We also used RS-1s 5632-33-34 to Switch Dover/New Philadelphia and kept them at Cambridge a lot. Interchanged with the B&O there and switched the coal mine at Dexter City. Canton Diesel Shop was closed in 1964. Bill Volkmer (Ex- PRR Functionary) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of jeffrey d thomas Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 4:29 PM To: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Fw: Locomotives on the Marietta Branch? I am trying to find out what locomotives, both steam and diesel, were used on the Marietta branch in the 1950's. I grew up there, but don't remember what engines were used. I saw some type steam engine there in the early 1950's, then it was all diesel. I do know that a pair of H20-44's were used sometime in the mid. 1950's. Thanks. Jeff Thomas Denton, Tx. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 16:01:19 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Re: Grain Car CLeanout Tracks From: John Sheets > > Grain Car cleanout tracks etc. Speaking of those large rats, when I worked for the Milwaukee Road in Bensenville, Illinois, we had some that used to hang out down by the car sheds and engine terminal and drank the diesel fuel that mixed with spilled grain, hide and meat remnants, and washings from the meat reefers and hide cars. What a diet !! John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 17:15:27 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Cooper Tracks So, presumably, after the day was done, the coopers (and the coopered or recoopered cars) ... um ... recooperated?? :-))) -- Mark On Tue, Dec 03, 2002 at 04:23:59PM -0500, Al Buchan wrote: > Bob and other fans of coopering, > > Try not to get all cooped up over this. ;^ ) > > Cooper tracks were where boxcars that needed recoopering were spotted to > be recoopered by the coopers. > > In other word, have repairs made to the cars interior wood lining by > specialized carpenters. > Any holes in grain cars permitted lading lose and a claim against the > carrier, also permitted the entrance of rodents. > > As a noun, a cooper is a person who makes wooden tubs and barrels/ casks > - or repairs wooded vessels. > > As a verb, to cooper or coopering (or recooper) is to is to make or > repair the above. To work as a cooper. > > A cooperage is the products of a cooper or the place where coopers work > (factory). > > Al -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Grain Car CLeanout Tracks Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 16:18:22 -0600 Any cock roaches in addtion to the rats? At one of our refineries, the ONLY thing thats lived in some of our process are were these huge cock roaches! -----Original Message----- From: John Sheets [mailto:john@mpa-inc.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 4:01 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Re: Grain Car CLeanout Tracks > > Grain Car cleanout tracks etc. Speaking of those large rats, when I worked for the Milwaukee Road in Bensenville, Illinois, we had some that used to hang out down by the car sheds and engine terminal and drank the diesel fuel that mixed with spilled grain, hide and meat remnants, and washings from the meat reefers and hide cars. What a diet !! John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Cooper Tracks Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 22:51:01 +0000 Your defintion is pretty much what I expected but it sure is a long way from making barrels to lining box cars! I wonder if the term started from making tank cars and water towers and the need for leak free seams. There may actually have been some coopers in railroad employ at one time. > Bob and other fans of coopering, > > Try not to get all cooped up over this. ;^ ) > > Cooper tracks were where boxcars that needed recoopering were spotted to > be recoopered by the coopers. > > In other word, have repairs made to the cars interior wood lining by > specialized carpenters. > Any holes in grain cars permitted lading lose and a claim against the > carrier, also permitted the entrance of rodents. > > As a noun, a cooper is a person who makes wooden tubs and barrels/ casks > - or repairs wooded vessels. > > As a verb, to cooper or coopering (or recooper) is to is to make or > repair the above. To work as a cooper. > > A cooperage is the products of a cooper or the place where coopers work > (factory). > > Al > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 18:04:22 -0500 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] Cooper Tracks - What about 'yards'? Now that last message made me both cringe and laugh, however.... ....My Father worked as a car repairman on the PRR for 40+ years in Buffalo. I distinctly remember him speaking at times about the "cooper yard". Of course, I only remember his last fifteen-or-so years before he retired (I was a surprise to both Mom & Dad!), but I *do* remember him using that term on many occasions. Now, I know that as a car repairman he was moved around to different yards - kinda like the Army moved me to different bases - but they were all within driving distance of Buffalo. Did the PRR have any facility in that neck of the woods where they had a "yard" dedicated to "coopering", or might it just have been a bit of PRR slang that the repairmen used? "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Al Buchan" Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Cooper Tracks > > So, presumably, after the day was done, the coopers > (and the coopered or recoopered cars) ... um ... > recooperated?? > > :-))) > > -- > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KLJURY@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 18:34:09 EST Subject: [PRR] grain cars --part1_6d.38a8fa3.2b1e9971_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I remember the cooper cars from the early to mid sixties coming to the team track in Millersburg, Pa in July for the wheat harvest. They always had a hard time getting enought cars and it was always interesting to see all the foreign road cars the PRR would round up and send down from Northumberland on the LN-2 local. When did the railroads eventually switch over to covered hoppers on a large scale and do away with the cooper cars? --part1_6d.38a8fa3.2b1e9971_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I remember the cooper cars from the early to mid sixties coming to
the team track in Millersburg, Pa in July for the wheat harvest. They
always had a hard time getting enought cars and it was always interesting to see all the foreign road cars the PRR would round up and
send down from Northumberland on the LN-2 local.
  When did the railroads eventually switch over to covered hoppers
on a large scale and do away with the cooper cars?
 --part1_6d.38a8fa3.2b1e9971_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 19:17:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Cooper Tracks - What about 'yards'? In a message dated 12/3/02 5:16:13 PM, casimer.zakrzewski@us.army.mil writes: << Did the PRR have any facility in that neck of the woods where they had a "yard" dedicated to "coopering", or might it just have been a bit of PRR slang that the repairmen used? >> I don't recall any yard that was a "coopering" yard. However, in season, I could see several tracks in a given yard set aside for the purpose. As I mentioned in a previous message, I also recall that it was a revenue producing activity to repair the cars of other carriers while we had them. I bellieve your father was a member of the TWU. He was too high priced to do the coopering of cars. But, it was his trade to repair them. So, on a seasonal basis, I could see him reporting to a marginal portion of a classification yard to repair cars while they stood being cleaned. He might call this the cooper yard. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 18:22:54 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: Locomotives on the Marietta Branch? From: jeffrey d thomas Thanks for the info Mr. Volkmer. Info on the Marietta branch is pretty hard to come by. I have two more questons about motive power on the branch. 1. Did the RS1's ever go all the way to Marietta? 2. What would have been the last steam engines used on the branch just prior to diesels taking over? Thanks for any info you can provide. I sure wish I had taken photos when I was growing up in Marietta. Jeff Thomas ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 19:48:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Summerhill Br/ Jumpover Mark........... The South Folk jump-over is not steep as it looks on the track chart. The mainline is dropping down while the South Fork is rising slightly from "W" interlocking. (1945 PRR track charts, Pittsburgh Div. "A" District interlocking charts) Westbound empties could only enter the South Fork Branch at "W". I guess a reverse move at SO tower would tie the mainline up. Running west on E/B track 1 seven miles from NY Tower was probably out of the question. Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Bad odors, books and authors Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 22:55:51 -0500 Phew, Poo and Boo! Phew, because I just finished reading "The Philadelphia and Erie Railroad" by H. T. Rosenberger. It was one of the hardest book to read that I ever encountered (harder than Advanced Organic Chemistry and Differential Equations). Poo, because the smelled of mildew. In fact, I noticed that when I brought it home, It was put in the garage for a year to dissipate the odor and recently brought into the house. Finally, Boo, because the author is more opinionated and anti-PRR than Charles S. Roberts of "Triumph" fame. For example, Rosenberger blamed the PRR for impeding the development of Northeastern Pennsylvania. He also stated "The blocking operation of the PRR (by leasing the P and E) was not in the national interest..." The book is essentially riddled with these comments. However, the final touch was a commendation on the dust cover written by Milton J. Shapp, the Governor who gave us one of the most onerous taxes in the history of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Phew, Poo and Boo! The one good thing I learned from the book was Rosenberger's statement "...William B. Sipes' "The Pennsylvania Railroad: Its origin, Construction, Condition and Connections was issued by the Passenger Department of the PRR"... I missed that fact when I read my copy of the Sipes book. Carl P. Izzo PRRT&HS 832 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cooper Tracks Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:40:01 -0500 good one! ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Al Buchan" Cc: ; Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Cooper Tracks > > So, presumably, after the day was done, the coopers > (and the coopered or recoopered cars) ... um ... > recooperated?? > > :-))) > > -- > Mark > > On Tue, Dec 03, 2002 at 04:23:59PM -0500, Al Buchan wrote: > > Bob and other fans of coopering, > > > > Try not to get all cooped up over this. ;^ ) > > > > Cooper tracks were where boxcars that needed recoopering were spotted to > > be recoopered by the coopers. > > > > In other word, have repairs made to the cars interior wood lining by > > specialized carpenters. > > Any holes in grain cars permitted lading lose and a claim against the > > carrier, also permitted the entrance of rodents. > > > > As a noun, a cooper is a person who makes wooden tubs and barrels/ casks > > - or repairs wooded vessels. > > > > As a verb, to cooper or coopering (or recooper) is to is to make or > > repair the above. To work as a cooper. > > > > A cooperage is the products of a cooper or the place where coopers work > > (factory). > > > > Al > > -- > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] grain cars Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:04:45 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C29B6B.CF6EB460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Northumberland cleanout track was closed in 1963. Elmira, and Buffalo were still busy into the 1970s. The NYC bought a huge fleet of covered hoppers in the early 1960s that were prone to derailments because they were top heavy and gyrated off the tracks, only on the PRR. My guess would be the early 1960s when the covered hoppers started to take over. I remember one year they were so short of cars that grain was actually shipped in open topped coal hoppers. I bet the rain did a number on THAT! The grains from Spain, come mostly by plane? Bill Volkmer (curmudgeon at large) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of KLJURY@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 6:34 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] grain cars I remember the cooper cars from the early to mid sixties coming to the team track in Millersburg, Pa in July for the wheat harvest. They always had a hard time getting enought cars and it was always interesting to see all the foreign road cars the PRR would round up and send down from Northumberland on the LN-2 local. When did the railroads eventually switch over to covered hoppers on a large scale and do away with the cooper cars? ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C29B6B.CF6EB460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Northumberland = cleanout track was closed in 1963.  = Elmira, and = Buffalo were still busy into the 1970s.  The NYC bought a huge fleet of = covered hoppers in the early 1960s that were prone to derailments because they = were top heavy and gyrated off the tracks, only on the PRR.  My guess would be the early = 1960s when the covered hoppers started to take over.  I remember one year they were so short of cars that grain was = actually shipped in open topped coal hoppers.  I bet the rain did a number on THAT!

 

The grains from = Spain, come mostly by plane?

 

Bill Volkmer (curmudgeon at = large)

 

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf = Of KLJURY@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December = 03, 2002 6:34 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] grain = cars

 

I remember = the cooper cars from the early to mid sixties coming to
the team track in Millersburg, Pa in July for the wheat harvest. = They
always had a hard time getting enought cars and it was always = interesting to see all the foreign road cars the PRR would round up and
send down from Northumberland on the LN-2 local.
  When did the railroads eventually switch over to covered = hoppers
on a large scale and do away with the cooper cars?

------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C29B6B.CF6EB460-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Locomotives on the Marietta Branch? Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:07:23 -0500 I don't remember exactly, but I think a pair of RS-1s made it down there occasionally. As I recall they only went south of Dexter City three days per week and traffic was minimal down there. Steam was all gone by the time I arrived on the scene. I would imagine they used either H or L class. Bill Volkmer -----Original Message----- From: jeffrey d thomas [mailto:jthomasmet@juno.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 7:23 PM To: bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com Cc: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: Locomotives on the Marietta Branch? Thanks for the info Mr. Volkmer. Info on the Marietta branch is pretty hard to come by. I have two more questons about motive power on the branch. 1. Did the RS1's ever go all the way to Marietta? 2. What would have been the last steam engines used on the branch just prior to diesels taking over? Thanks for any info you can provide. I sure wish I had taken photos when I was growing up in Marietta. Jeff Thomas ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] Cooper Tracks - What about 'yards'? Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:43:33 -0500 I remember getting one of the biggest scares of my life one day at the cleanout track in Northumberland. You see the cleanout track was located adjacent to the coal wharf and more succinctly over the ashpit. The ashpit was full of ashes and the area where the "cleanings" were swept out of the boxcars was also a part of the ash dump. Every so many days, they would just light a match to the box car cleanings and burn the trash up atop the locomotive ashes. Well, one day during my watch there, after the cleanout track had been closed, the ashpit caught fire. We put fire hoses up there for days on end and were not making any progress towards putting the fire out. One day I inadvertently stepped off the pit coping and went knee deep into BURNING ASHES. That was like drowning in quicksand that was ON FIRE!!!!! I managed to hoist myself up out of the burning ashes using the rail head in the process, but it was a harrowing experience to say the least. It took several weeks to finally extinguish the smoldering fire of ashes and boxcar cleanings left there over the previous 50 years. Bill Volkmer (never a fireman on the PRR) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of LAMAassoc@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 7:17 PM To: casimer.zakrzewski@us.army.mil; prr-talk@dsop.com Cc: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Subject: Re: [PRR] Cooper Tracks - What about 'yards'? In a message dated 12/3/02 5:16:13 PM, casimer.zakrzewski@us.army.mil writes: << Did the PRR have any facility in that neck of the woods where they had a "yard" dedicated to "coopering", or might it just have been a bit of PRR slang that the repairmen used? >> I don't recall any yard that was a "coopering" yard. However, in season, I could see several tracks in a given yard set aside for the purpose. As I mentioned in a previous message, I also recall that it was a revenue producing activity to repair the cars of other carriers while we had them. I bellieve your father was a member of the TWU. He was too high priced to do the coopering of cars. But, it was his trade to repair them. So, on a seasonal basis, I could see him reporting to a marginal portion of a classification yard to repair cars while they stood being cleaned. He might call this the cooper yard. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 07:33:42 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Homer City, PRR coal trains Back in October of 1999, you asked PRR-Talk: I would like some information on the Indiana Branch of the PRR that went from Blairsville to Indiana, PA. When I was a kid growing up in New Castle, PA, I used to stay at my aunt and uncle's house in the summer. They lived near Homer City, PA. The Pennsy ran right in front of my grandfather's store (and home) and I watched the PRR send empties to Indiana and bring loads back to Blairsville. What I can't figure out is where the loaded hoppers came from. There are no coal mines in Indiana and all the maps show the PRR ending in Indiana. (end quote) I recently raised this question on the B&O group at groups.yahoo.com. Today I got an answer which fills the bill nicely. Apparently there was a 3 or 4 track yard "on the south edge of Indiana" (about where Kovalchick has his salvage yard these days) called Indiana Transfer where PRR would leave empty hoppers. Those would be picked up by B&O trains heading north from Vintondale and taken to a yard, Cummings Yard, between Earnest and Creekside. B&O trains from Riker Yard would distribute the empties to mines on the B&O and return the loads to Cummings. Trains going to Vintondale would drop the loaded cars at Indiana Transfer, where PRR would pick them up and move them south down the Indiana Branch. He emphasized that only coal was handled at Indiana Transfer. This arrangement differed from normal interchange in that the cars left at Indiana Transfer by PRR were not "turned over to B&O" but loaded and returned to Indiana Transfer. It would seem, based on what he said, that on the B&O track between Indiana and Creekside, one would have seen northbound trains with some loaded (B&O coal from Vintondale) and some empty (PRR from Indiana Transfer) cars in the same train. Anyway, what he says neatly explains what you saw. The map that I snipped and sent to you is just plain misleading, as it suggests that PRR had trackage rights on the B&O which apparently they did not have. Bob Netzlof ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 07:51:26 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] South Fork Stuff, errata A week or two ago I posted some data regarding the South Fork Branch. In it, I mentioned the Beaver Branch, a branch of the South Fork Branch. The data from the 1900 CT1000 regarding A. J. Perley, and comments about the branch apparently having been built as a logging railroad were correct. However, the data on construction dates drawn from the Valuation Report are in error. It appears that there were two Beaver Branches. One, from Lovett to Lloydell, branched off the South Fork Branch. The other branched off the Moshannon and Clearfield Branch a couple of miles south of Osceola Mills. Apparently the ICC's entries naming the Beaver Branch in the Development of Fixed Physical Property referred to the one up by Osceola Mills. Apologies for the confusion. Mea culpa. But TWO with the same name? Who would have thunk it. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 11:37:35 EST Subject: [PRR] Recoop --part1_154.1861867e.2b1f894f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/4/02 1:11:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Your defintion is pretty much what I expected but it sure is a long way from > > making barrels to lining box cars! I wonder if the term started from > making > tank cars and water towers and the need for leak free seams. There may > actually have been some coopers in railroad employ at one time. > > Bob and other fans of coopering, > > > > Try not to get all cooped up over this. ;^ ) > > > > Cooper tracks were where boxcars that needed recoopering were spotted to > > be recoopered by the coopers. > > > > In other word, have repairs made to the cars interior wood lining by > > specialized carpenters. > > Any holes in grain cars permitted lading lose and a claim against the > > carrier, also permitted the entrance of rodents. > > > > As a noun, a cooper is a person who makes wooden tubs and barrels/ casks > > - or repairs wooded vessels. > > > > As a verb, to cooper or coopering (or recooper) is to is to make or > > repair the above. To work as a cooper. > > > > A cooperage is the products of a cooper or the place where coopers work > > (factory). > > > > Al > By the 1970's, it had been years since any GE appliances were shipped in rectangular wood boxes -- everything was packaged in the familiar heavy corrugated cardboard cartons, probably because of speed (on the assembly line), space (in the boxcar), and cost (of materials and especially labor). Corrugated also adds some shock-absorbing capability. Nevertheless, if it became necessary to repair or replace a carton, the appliance was moved to an area still called "recoop". So at least in our industry, the repair of the ancestral appliance box was considered cooperage (or recooperage). Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_154.1861867e.2b1f894f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/4/02 1:11:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Your defintion is pretty much what I expected but it sure is a long way from
making barrels to lining box cars!  I wonder if the term started from making
tank cars and water towers and the need for leak free seams.  There may
actually have been some coopers in railroad employ at one time.
> Bob and other fans of coopering,
> 
> Try not to get all cooped up over this.  ;^ )
> 
> Cooper tracks were where boxcars that needed recoopering were spotted to
> be recoopered by the coopers.
> 
> In other word, have repairs made to the cars interior wood lining by
> specialized carpenters.
> Any holes in grain cars permitted lading lose and a claim against the
> carrier, also permitted the entrance of rodents.
> 
> As a noun, a cooper is a person who makes wooden tubs and barrels/ casks
> - or repairs wooded vessels.
> 
> As a verb, to cooper or coopering (or recooper) is to is to make or
> repair the above. To work as a cooper.
> 
> A cooperage is the products of a cooper or the place where coopers work
> (factory).
> 
> Al


By the 1970's, it had been years since any GE appliances were shipped in rectangular wood boxes -- everything was packaged in the familiar heavy corrugated cardboard cartons, probably because of speed (on the assembly line), space (in the boxcar), and cost (of materials and especially labor).  Corrugated also adds some shock-absorbing capability.

Nevertheless, if it became necessary to repair or replace a carton, the appliance was moved to an area still called "recoop".  So at least in our industry, the repair of the ancestral appliance box was considered cooperage (or recooperage).

                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_154.1861867e.2b1f894f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Recoop Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:11:19 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C29B8E.41A7C310 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK Sportsfans, try this one on: When the Metroliners were built, the Parlor Cars were all GE equipped and the coach cars received Westinghouse motors and controls, in the proud PRR tradition of "sharing the wealth." The lead cars on the Metroliner expresses were always GE-equipped parlor cars. As luck would have it, the GE cars being in the lead at 90 per down the corridor would take the hit whenever a Metroliner struck a foreign object on the tracks, causing damage to the traction motors and controls (GE of course). This made the out of service score on GE-versus-Westinghouse disproportionately large. So the burning question becomes, "Since a great many of the objects struck were washing machines, did anybody keep score on whether they were predominately Westinghouse washing machines, or GE washing machines? This was sort of the PRR version of MONTEZUMA's REVENGE? Bill Volkmer (Ex- GE Warranty administrator at Erie Works) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of RickTipton@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 11:38 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Recoop In a message dated 12/4/02 1:11:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: Your defintion is pretty much what I expected but it sure is a long way from making barrels to lining box cars! I wonder if the term started from making tank cars and water towers and the need for leak free seams. There may actually have been some coopers in railroad employ at one time. > Bob and other fans of coopering, > > Try not to get all cooped up over this. ;^ ) > > Cooper tracks were where boxcars that needed recoopering were spotted to > be recoopered by the coopers. > > In other word, have repairs made to the cars interior wood lining by > specialized carpenters. > Any holes in grain cars permitted lading lose and a claim against the > carrier, also permitted the entrance of rodents. > > As a noun, a cooper is a person who makes wooden tubs and barrels/ casks > - or repairs wooded vessels. > > As a verb, to cooper or coopering (or recooper) is to is to make or > repair the above. To work as a cooper. > > A cooperage is the products of a cooper or the place where coopers work > (factory). > > Al By the 1970's, it had been years since any GE appliances were shipped in rectangular wood boxes -- everything was packaged in the familiar heavy corrugated cardboard cartons, probably because of speed (on the assembly line), space (in the boxcar), and cost (of materials and especially labor). Corrugated also adds some shock-absorbing capability. Nevertheless, if it became necessary to repair or replace a carton, the appliance was moved to an area still called "recoop". So at least in our industry, the repair of the ancestral appliance box was considered cooperage (or recooperage). Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C29B8E.41A7C310 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

OK Sportsfans, try this one on:

 

When the Metroliners were built, the Parlor Cars were all GE equipped and the coach cars = received Westinghouse motors and controls, in the proud PRR tradition of = “sharing the wealth.”

 

The lead cars on the Metroliner expresses were always GE-equipped parlor cars.  As luck would have it, the GE = cars being in the lead at 90 per down the corridor would take the hit whenever a = Metroliner struck a foreign object on the tracks, = causing damage to  the traction motors and controls (GE of course).  This made the out of service = score on GE-versus-Westinghouse disproportionately large.

 

So the burning question becomes, = “Since a great many of the objects struck were washing machines, did anybody = keep score on whether they were predominately Westinghouse washing machines, = or GE washing machines?

 

This was sort of the PRR version of = MONTEZUMA’s = REVENGE?

 

Bill Volkmer (Ex- GE Warranty administrator at Erie Works)

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf = Of RickTipton@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, December = 04, 2002 11:38 AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] = Recoop

 

In a message dated 12/4/02 = 1:11:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:



Your defintion is pretty = much what I expected but it sure is a long way from
making barrels to lining box cars!  I wonder if the term started = from making
tank cars and water towers and the need for leak free seams.  There = may
actually have been some coopers in railroad employ at one time.
> Bob and other fans of coopering,
> 
> Try not to get all cooped up over this.  ;^ )
> 
> Cooper tracks were where boxcars that needed recoopering were = spotted to
> be recoopered by the coopers.
> 
> In other word, have repairs made to the cars interior wood lining = by
> specialized carpenters.
> Any holes in grain cars permitted lading lose and a claim against = the
> carrier, also permitted the entrance of rodents.
> 
> As a noun, a cooper is a person who makes wooden tubs and barrels/ = casks
> - or repairs wooded vessels.
> 
> As a verb, to cooper or coopering (or recooper) is to is to make = or
> repair the above. To work as a cooper.
> 
> A cooperage is the products of a cooper or the place where coopers = work
> (factory).
> 
> Al



By the 1970's, it had been years since any GE appliances were shipped in rectangular wood boxes -- everything was packaged in the familiar heavy corrugated cardboard cartons, probably because of speed (on the assembly = line), space (in the boxcar), and cost (of materials and especially = labor).  Corrugated also adds some shock-absorbing capability.

Nevertheless, if it became necessary to repair or replace a carton, the appliance was moved to an area still called "recoop".  So = at least in our industry, the repair of the ancestral appliance box was = considered cooperage (or recooperage).

       &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;         Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
            &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;    Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
            &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;    And Remembering PRR Lines West

------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C29B8E.41A7C310-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Frank & Andrea Amato" Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 18:36:33 GMT Subject: [PRR] Reefer traffic -- Buffalo line Hi all, I read with interest the recent discussion of PRR reefer traffic. It got me thinking, however, of this type of traffic on the Buffalo line. The (1960) BF- train schedules all show blocks of "perishables". Did these come from NKP, Wabash, or CN interchanges in Buffalo? Seems strange, in that the PRR could have shipped direct from Chicago... Thanks in advance, Frank ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:44:15 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: Locomotives on the Marietta Branch? From: jeffrey d thomas Thanks guys for the Marietta branch info. I have found that photos and info about the Marietta Branch, especially the southern end, are about nonexistant. That part of Ohio was really remote before I77 was constructed in the mid 60's. I guess that is why few, if any, railfans documented operations on that line. I remember seeing one steam engine in the very earily 50's, but don't remember any details as I was only about 4 years old. I do remember the FM's, some GP's in the late 60's and early 70's, and what may have been the last train into Marietta before PC abandonment. I think the last freaght train into town had an F7 and a GP9. One of the engines derailed on a short passing track in town. The train sat there over a week before it was rerailed. I never saw another train in town. Darn, why didn't I take pictures? Jeff Thomas ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Randy" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic -- Buffalo line Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:13:19 -0500 I would believe that they received most of their perishable traffic from the Wabash and CN in Buffalo. NKP interchanged heavily with the Lackawanna and Lehigh Valley. Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] East West GG1 Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 13:16:46 -0600 Just found this picture on eBay, East West Railroad GG1. Looks in good condition for its age. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=130&item=744340553 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] East West GG1 Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:50:34 -0500 List, That's a photo put out by the AAR. Back in those days, they airbrushed out the members' names on rolling stock and put either East & West or North & South on any photograph used or sold by the AAR. Guess they felt they couldn't play favorites.. They usually just left steam locomotive tenders blank! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 2:16 PM Subject: [PRR] East West GG1 > Just found this picture on eBay, East West Railroad GG1. Looks in good condition for its age. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=130&item=744340553 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic -- Buffalo line Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:56:25 -0500 List, A lot of produce was shipped unsold, was sold enroute and "diverted". Since PRR owned the Wabash, it had quite open routing in connection with that line. So, a California shipper could ship to himself at Buffalo via ATSF-Kansas City-WAB and sell to cities on the PRR, DL&W, LV, D&H, or NH. So, he was covered from Washington to Boston! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank & Andrea Amato" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 1:36 PM Subject: [PRR] Reefer traffic -- Buffalo line > > Hi all, > > I read with interest the recent discussion of PRR reefer traffic. It got me > thinking, however, of this type of traffic on the Buffalo line. > > The (1960) BF- train schedules all show blocks of "perishables". Did these > come from NKP, Wabash, or CN interchanges in Buffalo? Seems strange, in that > the PRR could have shipped direct from Chicago... > > Thanks in advance, > > Frank > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 11:59:55 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] East West GG1 --- yunz@verizon.net wrote: > Just found this picture on eBay, East West Railroad GG1. Looks in > good condition for its age. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=130&item=744340553 Sometime around 50 years ago the Association of American Railroads put out a group of a dozen or so pictures of trains, cars being loaded, other typical railroad scenes. In order to not favor any one railroad, every visible road name was altered to either "East and West Railroad" or "North and South Railroad". They even altered the little letters on the car ends to "E&W" or "N&S". (Perhaps an E&W Railway slipped in somewhere.) As I recall they even changed the letters in some well-known heralds. Five or 6 years ago a restaurant opened in the old BR&P station in Ridgway, PA, and they had the whole set framed and hanging on the dining room walls. Alas, the restaurant folded and goodness knows what happened to the pictures. I had a set of them but they were lost in a great clean-up campaign at my "home of record" while I was in the army. (pause for wailing and gnashing of teeth). ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Reefer traffic -- Buffalo line Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 15:14:41 -0500 The lumber companies did this (probably still do) also. They would ship a carload of lumber out of Oregon and it would travel up and down the PRR until a bidder would pay a high enough price to get instant delivery. But was even more amazing was a carload of cookies I once saw routed from Cincinnati to Cleveland to Pittsburgh to Buffalo to Baltimore, all aboard the Pennsy. Seems like the shipper wanted to pad the PRR's pockets or something. I never did find out why the crazy routing. Bill Volkmer (Never was able to figure the PRR out) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Gregg Mahlkov Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 2:56 PM To: amato@revealed.net; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic -- Buffalo line List, A lot of produce was shipped unsold, was sold enroute and "diverted". Since PRR owned the Wabash, it had quite open routing in connection with that line. So, a California shipper could ship to himself at Buffalo via ATSF-Kansas City-WAB and sell to cities on the PRR, DL&W, LV, D&H, or NH. So, he was covered from Washington to Boston! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank & Andrea Amato" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 1:36 PM Subject: [PRR] Reefer traffic -- Buffalo line > > Hi all, > > I read with interest the recent discussion of PRR reefer traffic. It got me > thinking, however, of this type of traffic on the Buffalo line. > > The (1960) BF- train schedules all show blocks of "perishables". Did these > come from NKP, Wabash, or CN interchanges in Buffalo? Seems strange, in that > the PRR could have shipped direct from Chicago... > > Thanks in advance, > > Frank > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 16:15:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] B6sb List, Here is a quick note on my newest project and response to Lew's Challenge on scratch building. The 1:29th Scale B6sb is under way. Still working on the Cab but it is progressing well. The Basic Cab is fabricated and awaits detailing with Rivits and Window Frames. Here are some pics. http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000692.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000693.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000694.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000695.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000696.jpg Next update will be when the Cab is completed, less paint of course....Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 16:53:30 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Recoop This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_5/J0iY5K0k964s7Bg21jzA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Bill V said - This made the out of service score on GE-versus-Westinghouse disproportionately large. So the burning question becomes, "Since a great many of the objects struck were washing machines, did anybody keep score on whether they were predominately Westinghouse washing machines, or GE washing machines? This was sort of the PRR version of Montezuma's REVENGE? We might need our We-sting-[w]ho-use Metroliner Field Engineer guru Bob Coldcutts to weight in on this matter. I think Bob may have been tossing Westinghouse washers from preceding freight trains, just to make the GEs look bad. ;^ ) Al Butane --Boundary_(ID_5/J0iY5K0k964s7Bg21jzA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Bill V said - This made the out of service score on GE-versus-Westinghouse disproportionately large.  So the burning question becomes, “Since a great many of the objects struck were washing machines, did anybody keep score on whether they were predominately Westinghouse washing machines, or GE washing machines?

This was sort of the PRR version of Montezuma's REVENGE?

 
 
 
We might need our We-sting-[w]ho-use Metroliner Field Engineer guru Bob Coldcutts to weight in on this matter.  I think Bob may have been tossing Westinghouse washers from preceding freight trains, just to make the GEs look bad.  ;^ ) 
 
Al Butane
 

 

--Boundary_(ID_5/J0iY5K0k964s7Bg21jzA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/04/02 Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 20:33:22 -0500 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Bill Volkmer wrote: Subject: RE: [PRR] Recoop From: "Bill Volkmer" Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:11:19 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0050_01C29B8E.41A7C310 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK Sportsfans, try this one on: When the Metroliners were built, the Parlor Cars were all GE equipped and the coach cars received Westinghouse motors and controls, in the proud PRR tradition of "sharing the wealth." The lead cars on the Metroliner expresses were always GE-equipped parlor cars. As luck would have it, the GE cars being in the lead at 90 per down the corridor would take the hit whenever a Metroliner struck a foreign object on the tracks, causing damage to the traction motors and controls (GE of course). This made the out of service score on GE-versus-Westinghouse disproportionately large. So the burning question becomes, "Since a great many of the objects struck were washing machines, did anybody keep score on whether they were predominately Westinghouse washing machines, or GE washing machines? This was sort of the PRR version of MONTEZUMA's REVENGE? Bill Volkmer (Ex- GE Warranty administrator at Erie Works) Hi Bill: Although I can't give you an absolute answer to the question, the following information will assist the investigating committee in their conclusion. Since the GE washing machines were top loaders and the Westinghouse machines were front loaders, it depended on their position as they were struck. The engineers at the Westinghouse Columbus plant claimed the front loaders were invincible. Carl P. Izzo Fellow Scientist (Retired) Westinghouse Research Labs (Expired) . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bad odors, books and authors Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 21:48:58 -0500 I read this a couple years ago & I agree about it being a tough read. About 800 pages, and much of it dealing with the finance end of things - hence the subtitle "... Its Place in America's Economic History" or something like that. It also had its share of interesting information. The route chosen went through higher grades at Kane & Warren most likely because of Thomas Leiper Kane & Thomas Struthers, who held small amounts of stock and wanted it to pass through their towns, when an alternate route from Driftwood to Franklin, then on to Erie, would have provided the lowest grade across the Allegheny Mtn. The rail line from Erie to the Ohio line which eventually ended up becoming part of the NY Central's main line was built in violation of the charter of the builder, and could have been assigned to the P&E by PA's legislature. This might have funnelled all the east/west traffic down the P&E down to Philly instead of NY. Instead, the just made the builder buy stock in the P&E. It also showed how the PRR took advantage (to put it mildly) of its leased lines. The PRR installed its own men as directors of the P&E (I believe Cassatt was president before becoming the same for the PRR). It used independent freight companies (Empire Line) to handle the traffic at low cost to these companies (& low profits for the P&E). The main stockholders of the Empire Line were PRR officials. It required the P&E to constantly upgrade the line to the PRR's standards. Thus the P&E stockholders never got anything, while the PRR got all the profits. It appeared the PRR leased it to keep it away from other railroads, but never really wanted it to do anything to develop any further traffic. The book would have been much better from a railfan's point of view if all the finance stuff was deleted. --- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carl Izzo" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 10:55 PM Subject: [PRR] Bad odors, books and authors > > Phew, Poo and Boo! Phew, because I just finished reading "The Philadelphia > and Erie Railroad" by H. T. Rosenberger. It was one of the hardest book to > read that I ever encountered (harder than Advanced Organic Chemistry and > Differential Equations). Poo, because the smelled of mildew. In fact, I > noticed that when I brought it home, It was put in the garage for a year to > dissipate the odor and recently brought into the house. Finally, Boo, > because the author is more opinionated and anti-PRR than Charles S. Roberts > of "Triumph" fame. For example, Rosenberger blamed the PRR for impeding the > development of Northeastern Pennsylvania. He also stated "The blocking > operation of the PRR (by leasing the P and E) was not in the national > interest..." The book is essentially riddled with these comments. However, > the final touch was a commendation on the dust cover written by Milton J. > Shapp, the Governor who gave us one of the most onerous taxes in the history > of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Phew, Poo and Boo! > > The one good thing I learned from the book was Rosenberger's statement > "...William B. Sipes' "The Pennsylvania Railroad: Its origin, Construction, > Condition and Connections was issued by the Passenger Department of the > PRR"... I missed that fact when I read my copy of the Sipes book. > > Carl P. Izzo > PRRT&HS 832 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 22:26:37 EST Subject: [PRR] R50B --part1_b7.2af29e0c.2b20216d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How far ranging were the these cars? Just found a photo with one in the background in Dallas, Texas in 55. Until this photo I assumed they stayed pretty close to home rails. Many thanks, Evan Leisey --part1_b7.2af29e0c.2b20216d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit    How far ranging were the these cars?  Just found a photo with one in the background in Dallas, Texas in 55.  Until this photo I assumed they stayed pretty close to home rails.

Many thanks,

Evan Leisey --part1_b7.2af29e0c.2b20216d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 08:16:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Summerhill Br/ Jumpover Thanks for the info Ron and Dave.That pinpoints the locations pretty well. Anyone know how the jumpover was actually used at South Fork? Was it for returning West bound empties? Is it physically possible to drag a string of empty hoppers up and over that jumpover? ---Mark L----- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:31:33 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Shadow Keystone and Circle keystone --part1_65.39f424f.2b20d965_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all with the help on this! Now so far it looks like I am safe with what I have :) Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001 PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_65.39f424f.2b20d965_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all with the help on this! Now so far it looks like I am safe with what I have :)

Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001
PRRT&HS  #7136
List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo
 --part1_65.39f424f.2b20d965_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:57:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Towers on the SO Branch. Were there Towers on the South Fork Branch? One of the locals told me there was a tower at Sidman but it was destroyed along with the station by a derailment.------Mark----- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 15:12:16 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Towers on the SO Branch. From: Jerry Britton On 12/5/02 2:57 PM, Mark Lehman (L1sDRIVER@webtv.net) wrote: > Were there Towers on the South Fork Branch? One of the locals told me > there was a tower at Sidman but it was destroyed along with the station > by a derailment.------Mark----- > As of the 9/54 ETT for the Pittsburgh division, there were no interlockings, interlocking stations, or block stations, other than "W" where the branch met the main. The ETT provides the following mileage map for the South Fork Branch: 0.0 W - Interlocking and Block Station (controlled by SO) 1.5 South Fork 2.1 JK - Block-limit Station 4.2 St. Michael 5.7 Lovett 5.8 LV - Block-limit station (controlled by FK) 13.3 HC - Block-limit station (controlled by SO when FK not in service) Interestingly, there is no reference to the location of FK, which controls two block-limit stations! Perhaps this is the tower at Sidman that was taken out and perhaps the ETT was not properly updated. I've certainly seen this happen before. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 15:27:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Wilmore station Anyone know at what mile post the original (pre 1900/realignment) Wilmore station was located? Most of that original Prr Row Is still there. I'm curious were the station was located. I wonder how much the distance changed between Johnstown and Galitzin after the realignment? The distance must have gotten shorter and the mile posts changed, Was there an original "W" tower closer to Wilmore? Block signal maybe? ----Mark------ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 16:07:17 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Trust plates Hi All, I have PRR drawing D-402029 "Equipment Trust Badge Plate." Besides showing the plate construction, it lists the trust series from approximately E to Q, and some of the equipment built with those trusts. Does anyone know what series would have been used to build X-29s in the 1928 to 1932 time period? What equipment was built with the trusts previous to "E"? Finally, this drawing was superseded by drawing C-436776. Does anyone have this drawing? Thanks in advance, Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:07:04 EST Subject: [PRR] Maybe they were diversions... --part1_7f.3047f8df.2b2119f8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/4/02 5:03:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Hi all, > > I read with interest the recent discussion of PRR reefer traffic. It got > me > thinking, however, of this type of traffic on the Buffalo line. > > The (1960) BF- train schedules all show blocks of "perishables". Did these > come from NKP, Wabash, or CN interchanges in Buffalo? Seems strange, in > that > the PRR could have shipped direct from Chicago... > > Thanks in advance, > > Frank > Don't discount the wierd process called "diversion in transit". So far as I know, diversion was used for fruits and vegetables and also for some lumber loads; there was a type of railroad tariff that allowed for it. Basically, it was impossible to know ahead of shipment where a carload would be needed. Think about it -- Toledo might need a carload of cherries 8 days from now, and it might not. Certainly it would be a disaster for two carloads to arrive the same day, as much of the fruit would be ruined before it could be wholesaled off. Instead the western or southern shipper would load the cars, and send them off to a fictional terminal as far away as possible. While the car was redballed toward the consuming areas, brokers were on the phone trying to sell the carload. When a sale was made, then the car could be ordered diverted to its market. The art in all this was to route a car so it traveled steadily toward or past the industrial northeast, but could be rerouted and then delivered quickly to some US population center. It sounds silly, but was actually an efficient way to distribute these perishables -- if the diversion was well done, a car already rolling could be spotted for unloading in less than two days after the diversion order was issued. In the case you cite, the Grand Trunk Western/Canadian National would have been an obvious route to use (initially). So would the Wabash, operating through Canada. Diversion from either route would lead to the PRR at Buffalo. OTOH, a car routed Nickel Plate or NYC/Lake Shore around the south side of Lake Erie could also be diverted onto the PRR at Buffalo -- just as you're seeing. Certainly, there were more direct ways to reach the northeast. And many of them involved other roads who were working very hard to move the traffic faster than the Pennsy could. However, when a carload was going to unload somewhere on the Pennsy, it could be diverted out of anybody's train. I suspect that's what we're seeing here. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_7f.3047f8df.2b2119f8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/4/02 5:03:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Hi all,

I read with interest the recent discussion of PRR reefer traffic.  It got me
thinking, however, of this type of traffic on the Buffalo line. 

The (1960) BF- train schedules all show blocks of "perishables".  Did these
come from NKP, Wabash, or CN interchanges in Buffalo?  Seems strange, in that
the PRR could have shipped direct from Chicago...

Thanks in advance,

  Frank


Don't discount the wierd process called "diversion in transit".  So far as I know, diversion was used for fruits and vegetables and also for some lumber loads; there was a type of railroad tariff that allowed for it.

Basically, it was impossible to know ahead of shipment where a carload would be needed.  Think about it -- Toledo might need a carload of cherries 8 days from now, and it might not.  Certainly it would be a disaster for two carloads to arrive the same day, as much of the fruit would be ruined before it could be wholesaled off.  Instead the western or southern shipper would load the cars, and send them off to a fictional terminal as far away as possible.  While the car was redballed toward the consuming areas, brokers were on the phone trying to sell the carload.  When a sale was made, then the car could be ordered diverted to its market.

The art in all this was to route a car so it traveled steadily toward or past the industrial northeast, but could be rerouted and then delivered quickly to some US population center.  It sounds silly, but was actually an efficient way to distribute these perishables -- if the diversion was well done, a car already rolling could be spotted for unloading in less than two days after the diversion order was issued.

In the case you cite, the Grand Trunk Western/Canadian National would have been an obvious route to use (initially).  So would the Wabash, operating through Canada.  Diversion from either route would lead to the PRR at Buffalo.  OTOH, a car routed Nickel Plate or NYC/Lake Shore around the south side of Lake Erie could also be diverted onto the PRR at Buffalo -- just as you're seeing.

Certainly, there were more direct ways to reach the northeast.  And many of them involved other roads who were working very hard to move the traffic faster than the Pennsy could.  However, when a carload was going to unload somewhere on the Pennsy, it could be diverted out of anybody's train.  I suspect that's what we're seeing here.


                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_7f.3047f8df.2b2119f8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Maybe they were diversions... Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 22:10:28 +0000 That reminds me of a Mickey Mouse Club feature when I was a tad bit younger about some kid in California that harvested his potatos and the trip around Tehachapi loop. That car got sold somewhere on the trip east as I recall and everybody lived happily ever after. Norm Bell > In a message dated 12/4/02 5:03:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > > > Hi all, > > > > I read with interest the recent discussion of PRR reefer traffic. It got > > me > > thinking, however, of this type of traffic on the Buffalo line. > > > > The (1960) BF- train schedules all show blocks of "perishables". Did these > > come from NKP, Wabash, or CN interchanges in Buffalo? Seems strange, in > > that > > the PRR could have shipped direct from Chicago... > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > Frank > > > > Don't discount the wierd process called "diversion in transit". So far as I > know, diversion was used for fruits and vegetables and also for some lumber > loads; there was a type of railroad tariff that allowed for it. > > Basically, it was impossible to know ahead of shipment where a carload would > be needed. Think about it -- Toledo might need a carload of cherries 8 days > from now, and it might not. Certainly it would be a disaster for two > carloads to arrive the same day, as much of the fruit would be ruined before > it could be wholesaled off. Instead the western or southern shipper would > load the cars, and send them off to a fictional terminal as far away as > possible. While the car was redballed toward the consuming areas, brokers > were on the phone trying to sell the carload. When a sale was made, then the > car could be ordered diverted to its market. > > The art in all this was to route a car so it traveled steadily toward or past > the industrial northeast, but could be rerouted and then delivered quickly to > some US population center. It sounds silly, but was actually an efficient > way to distribute these perishables -- if the diversion was well done, a car > already rolling could be spotted for unloading in less than two days after > the diversion order was issued. > > In the case you cite, the Grand Trunk Western/Canadian National would have > been an obvious route to use (initially). So would the Wabash, operating > through Canada. Diversion from either route would lead to the PRR at > Buffalo. OTOH, a car routed Nickel Plate or NYC/Lake Shore around the south > side of Lake Erie could also be diverted onto the PRR at Buffalo -- just as > you're seeing. > > Certainly, there were more direct ways to reach the northeast. And many of > them involved other roads who were working very hard to move the traffic > faster than the Pennsy could. However, when a carload was going to unload > somewhere on the Pennsy, it could be diverted out of anybody's train. I > suspect that's what we're seeing here. > > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 16:39:40 -0600 Subject: [PRR] PRR: question From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Can someone supply me with the snail mail address for Semaphore Records. I ordered two copies of one of their PRR CDs and they stiffed me on one. Can't find the packaging. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:53:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Towers on the SO Branch. "FK" that is interesting,Jerry. The mileage 13.3 is about right for Windber. Maybe "FK" was used to control the "Y" at Windber were the line split.----Mark---- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 18:08:16 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR: question Try doing a search on www.Trains.com -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Donald E. Harper, Jr Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 5:40 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] PRR: question Can someone supply me with the snail mail address for Semaphore Records. I ordered two copies of one of their PRR CDs and they stiffed me on one. Can't find the packaging. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 19:50:24 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Towers on the SO Branch. Referring to the Sept. 1948 and April, 1951 ETT. FK was located 1.5 miles from W and is listed as station signals not a block station or interlock. This would indicate that it was in the South Fork station. Sidman is located south of ST. Michael and is also known as Lovett Station. So the block limit station LV at Lovett is the most likely remnant of any Tower at Sidman. At HC the South Fork branch divided into the South Fork secondary and the Paint Creek and Shade Creek branch. The South Fork secondary went to Windber Jct. (2.8 miles from HC) and gave rise to the Windber secondary which served Eureka mines 35, 38, and 42. The Paint Creek and Shade Creek branch divided at the Shade Creek Branch Jct 1.8 miles from HC and the Paint Creek branch continued to Central City 18.2 miles fro HC. There is no listing for the Shade Creek branch beyond the jct. It may have been abandoned already. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:57:57 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] R50B Hi Evan, R50b cars traveled inthe Santa Fe "Fast Mail" to the west coast! - Claus From: RDG2124@aol.com Date sent: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 22:26:37 EST Subject: [PRR] R50B To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > How far ranging were the these cars? Just found a photo with one in the > background in Dallas, Texas in 55. Until this photo I assumed they stayed > pretty close to home rails. > > Many thanks, > > Evan Leisey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 15:01:59 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Towers on the SO Branch. Hi Mark, Jerry, All, The 1949 Pitt. ETT agrees with Jerry's and, in addition, fixes the location of FK at South Fork. 1.5 miles from "W". It is listed under the "Station Signals" column. ETT further refers to FK as a "Train Order Office other than Block Station". JK, LV & HC formerly listed as "Block Stations" now listed as "Block Limit Stations". JK, LV & HC controlled by FK, when open, SO, otherwise. The 1940 Pitt. ETT gives more: 0.0 South Fork Branch Junction 1.2 SM (Block Station) 1.5 South Fork (FK) 1.7 JK (Block Station) 2.2 FY (Block Station) 4.2 St. Michael 5.0 Creslo 5.1 CO (Block Station) 5.7 Lovett (LV) (Block Station) 9.1 Salix 9.9 SU (Block Station) 11.6 Elton 13.8 HC (Block Station) 14.9 Paint Creek Branch Jct. (PJ) (Block Station) 15.5 Scalp Level 16.5 Windber 16.6 Windber Branch Jct. 17.1 WD (Block Station) 18.2 Eureka No. 34 23.3 Arrow FK, LV & PJ listed in the "Signal Stations" column. FK further referred to as "Train Order Office other than Block Station". Noted: All "Block Stations unattended and controlled by FK, when open, SO, otherwise. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 16:07:17 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Trust plates Hi All, I have PRR drawing D-402029 "Equipment Trust Badge Plate." Besides showing the plate construction, it lists the trust series from approximately E to Q, and some of the equipment built with those trusts. Does anyone know what series would have been used to build X-29s in the 1928 to 1932 time period? What equipment was built with the trusts previous to "E"? Finally, this drawing was superseded by drawing C-436776. Does anyone have this drawing? Thanks in advance, Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] water plugs & Lines West Signal bridges Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 01:25:23 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C29CC6.593505E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gents; Does anybody know where I could obtain drawings for the above?? I have drawings (diagrams) for the square cornered signal bridges. The = ones prevelant "over here" are the ones with the rounded corners and = heavy looking round corner braces. Any advice would be most appreciated. Earl Myers PRR Canton District, 1944 ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C29CC6.593505E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gents;
 Does anybody know where I could = obtain=20 drawings for the above??
 I have drawings (diagrams) for = the square=20 cornered signal bridges. The ones prevelant "over here" are the ones = with the=20 rounded corners and heavy looking round corner braces.
Any advice would be most = appreciated.
Earl Myers
PRR Canton District,=20 1944
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C29CC6.593505E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR (Econimics Survey) Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 08:01:42 -0500 Group, Her is the results of my Economics survey. Survey for Economics of Model Trains Scale that you model? HO N O S Other Scales 16 2 2 1 1 1. Why did they start modeling trains? Yourself Ancestor Other 1 6 24 2. When purchasing Rank these items. Price Quality Detail Accuracy DCC Compatable Era 103 137 100 114 36 155 3. Kit or RTR All else being equal Kit RTR 18 13 4. Kit or RTR in present state of MFG Kit RTR 19 12 5. MFG most bank for the buck. Bowser Life Like Atlas Accurail Athearn Spectrum/Bachman Westerfield 20 5 2 1 2 2 1 Walthers Other 1 2 6. Best Manufacturer leaving price out of the equasion Alpha Products Brass Bowser Life Like Atlas Branch Line Spectrum 1 11 7 4 1 1 1 Westerfield Red Caboose Other 4 2 2 7. Where do you prefer to purchase? E-bay Local Mail Order Train Shows Other 5 17 10 3 1 8. Has purchasing habits changed in last 3 years? Yes No 23 8 9. Have spending habits changed since 9-11? Yes No 3 28 10. Change in you life resulting in change in purchasing? Children House Retired Job Other No 6 6 7 3 3 8 11. Era modeled? Steam Diesel Transition Electric 5 4 21 4 12. Do you have your own Layout? Yes No 19 12 13 If no do you belong to a club? Yes No 11 10 _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 08:42:26 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Towers on the SO Branch. --part1_64.293d8402.2b220342_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rich & Mark The Shade Creek Br.,not the Paint Creek Br.,went to Central City and southward to the area called Gahagan. It ended there and none of the main was abandoned that I know of. The Paint Creek Br is the one that does not show anything from the jct. If you look at the ETT again you will also note that the South Fork goes right on to the Windber Br at the jct and the Windber ends at Arrow,no mention of where the South Fork ends. With all the mines working at that time,especially during WWII, I would liked to have seen how all the trains moved around in the large manual blocks with only one of block-limit station "FK" is marked on my 1966 track chart and it appears above where the yard office is located. That would make better sense,an operator at the yard office controlling everything on the branch. It gets confusing reading the ETT's as the mileage given seems to differ somewhat over time. Will have to check the valuation sheets to see where they have zero. 1966 trackchart has zero north of Maple St.,approx.where the east leg of the wye connects to the track coming from "W". ETT's seems to start at "W". That is approx a 1.1 mile difference. Pat McKinney --part1_64.293d8402.2b220342_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rich & Mark
         The Shade Creek Br.,not the Paint Creek Br.,went to Central City and southward to the area called Gahagan. It ended there and none of the main was  abandoned that I know of. The Paint Creek Br is the one that does not show anything from the jct. If you look at the ETT again you will also note that the South Fork goes right on to the Windber Br at the jct and the Windber ends at Arrow,no mention of where the South Fork ends. With all the mines working at that time,especially during WWII, I would liked to have seen how all the trains moved around in the large manual blocks with only one of block-limit station
    "FK" is marked on my 1966 track chart and it appears above where the yard office is located. That would make better sense,an operator at the yard office controlling everything on the branch. It gets confusing reading the ETT's as the mileage given seems to differ somewhat over time. Will have to check the valuation sheets to see where they have zero. 1966 trackchart has zero north of Maple St.,approx.where the east leg of the wye connects to the track coming from "W". ETT's seems to start at "W". That is approx a 1.1 mile difference.

Pat McKinney --part1_64.293d8402.2b220342_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:30:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Towers on the SO Branch. Thanks guys,this is good stuff. "FK" =Fork.It makes sense. I misread Jerry's post with FK at mile 13.3. It would indeed be interesting to witness the operation of the line especially when passenger service was still going.-----Mark------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:42:02 EST Subject: [PRR] R50B on AT&SF --part1_4e.150748b9.2b221f4a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First, other than knowing that the AT&SF corp. logo is still the third most recognized company symbol in America, I am totally ignorant of the Santa Fe operations. Am interested in the interchange of headend cars to the Santa Fe's Fast Mail. Over what period were the Pennsy's class R50B express cars handled on the Santa Fe? Were they handled prior to WWII? What is a good reference on the Santa Fe's passneger/mail/express service after WWI, in particularly the Fast Mail. Many thanks, Evan Leisey --part1_4e.150748b9.2b221f4a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   First,  other than knowing that the AT&SF corp. logo is still the third most recognized company symbol in America,  I am totally ignorant of the Santa Fe operations.

  Am interested in the interchange of headend cars to the Santa Fe's Fast Mail.  Over what period were the Pennsy's class R50B express cars handled on the Santa Fe?  Were they handled prior to WWII?  What is a good reference on the Santa Fe's passneger/mail/express service after WWI, in particularly the Fast Mail.

Many thanks,

Evan Leisey --part1_4e.150748b9.2b221f4a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 12:49:33 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] R50B on AT&SF > First, other than knowing that the AT&SF corp. logo is still the third >most recognized company symbol in America, I am totally ignorant of the >Santa Fe operations. Am interested in the interchange of headend cars >to the Santa Fe's Fast Mail. Over what period were the Pennsy's class >R50B express cars handled on the Santa Fe? Were they handled prior to >WWII? What is a good reference on the Santa Fe's passneger/mail/express >service after WWI, in particularly the Fast Mail. Many thanks, Evan >Leisey Evan Check out the web pages on Steve Sandifer's site on the fast mail at: http://www.trainweb.org/jssand/FM%20War/Intro.htm Steve also has a nice page on "foreighn" PRR cars on teh Santa Fe at: http://www.trainweb.org/jssand/Foreign/PRR.htm Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 22:40:14 +0000 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] HO Turnout Frog Castings. Dear all, Re the Alexander Models frog castings I was involved with a few months ago ....... Details of these whitemetal 'Manganese steel' frog castings for use in HO turnout construction are now on Dave Alexander's website: http://www.xclent.clara.net/alexander-models/home.htm Prices and shipping costs are in stated in dollars. There is also a reference to a UK firm, C & L Finescale and their website, who amongst other useful things produce flat bottom rail in steel and nickel silver. -- Regards, John H. Wright Washington, England Web sites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ http://www.xclent.clara.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mike Morrow" Subject: [PRR] Elmira Branch Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 17:49:57 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C29D4F.E3DEC580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has "The Keystone" ever run any articles on the Elmira Branch? I checked = the PRRT&HS website for available back issues and the list of articles = in them. Is there a database somewhere that has an archive of past = issues? Thanks Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 The Elmira Branch 1956-57 ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C29D4F.E3DEC580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Has "The Keystone" ever run any = articles on the=20 Elmira Branch? I checked the PRRT&HS website for available back = issues and=20 the list of articles in them. Is = there a database=20 somewhere that has an archive of past issues? Thanks
 
Mike Morrow
PRRT&HS #6703
The Elmira Branch=20 1956-57
------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C29D4F.E3DEC580-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 18:34:46 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] HO Turnout Frog Castings. Re the Alexander Models frog castings Looks good. Is it supposed to be a railbound manganese frog or a solid manganese frog? The main difference being in the bolt detail. We desperately need somebody to do a more modern guard rail, such as the cast one piece manganese-steel one. The only thing available is the standard rail section type guard rail. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 22:10:17 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Head end cars on PRR trains In a message dated 12/6/02 12:10:35 PM Central Standard Time, lmatt@alltel.net writes: << What classification is the 1958 car you are referring to here? >> I am not sure what you mean by classification. Suffice it to say that it was the REA express reefer built in the mid 1950's of riveted construction. It is the car recently introduced by Walthers in paint schemes of three eras and was used country-wide for many years. Atlantic Coast Line also tacked 50 cars onto the order so that is a correct paint scheme. Can't believe some of those ACL cars didn't make it up the corridor on the Pennsy in passenger interchange service, though I've never seen a photo. Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 21:26:27 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] R50B on AT&SF From: "Douglas Nelson" Evan: A good reference for the Sante Fe Fast Mail is the second quarter 1997 issue of The Warbonnet (magazine of the Santa Fe Railway Historical & Modeling Society). The entire issue is about the Fast Mail and includes information on consists and foreign cars. Doug Nelson. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/06/02 Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 11:37:00 -0500 Hi Don: Their address is hard to find. It is listed on the booklet accompanying a 2 CD set of The Std. RR of the World as: Semaphore Records/ Dynagroove Trust P. O. Box 3044 Princeton, NJ 08540 Hope this helps, Carl P. Izzo -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Donald E. Harper, Jr Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 5:40 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] PRR: question Can someone supply me with the snail mail address for Semaphore Records. I ordered two copies of one of their PRR CDs and they stiffed me on one. Can't find the packaging. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 16:08:13 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: PRR C&M photos and information From: jeffrey d thomas Thanks, that is some great information. If anyone ever needs any details about the online industries in the Marietta area, let me know. Jeff Thomas Denton, Tx. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 22:46:48 EST Subject: [PRR] Looking for a list of must have PRR books..... --part1_186.125e8bee.2b241aa8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, With Christmas coming I was wondering what we would consider the must have books for a PRR modeler modeling the 1940's- 1950's. Also where would you suggest finding them? Used or new doesn't matter (but used would be cheaper :))! By the way, I personally like lots of color pictures!!! What about this one? Alexander, Edwin P. The Pennsylvania Railroad: A Pictorial History. New York: Bonanza Books, 1967Hard Cover. I found this one used online for $10, Is this one?? Maybe this list should be put in the files section of the group? Thanks in advance, Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001 PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_186.125e8bee.2b241aa8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List,

With Christmas coming I was wondering what we would consider the must have books for a PRR modeler modeling the 1940's- 1950's. 

Also where would you suggest finding them? Used or new doesn't matter (but used would be cheaper :))!  By the way, I personally like lots of color pictures!!!

What about this one? Alexander, Edwin P. The Pennsylvania Railroad: A Pictorial History. New York: Bonanza Books, 1967Hard Cover.
I found this one used online for $10, Is this one??

Maybe this list should be put in the files section of the group?
Thanks in advance,

Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001
PRRT&HS  #7136
List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo
 --part1_186.125e8bee.2b241aa8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 01:30:07 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for a list of must have PRR books..... Mike, list, What follows are some of my favorites. Pennsy Steam: A to T (Carleton, 1989, out of print) Pennsy Steam Years, Volume 2 (Morning Sun, in print) Pennsylvania RR: 1940s-1950s (by Don Ball...take the text with a grain of salt, but the pictures are great) Pennsy Power III (Staufer Publishing) Black Gold-Black Diamonds, Volume 2 (by Eric Hirsimaki) You can find errors in all of these books (and many more in books I haven't mentioned, but that's another story). I don't own the Alexander book, so I can't comment on it. I have had good customer service from Raritan Bay Hobbies (www.raritanbayhobbies.com) and from our listmeister Jerry's Merchandise Service. For used books, consider Ron's Books; good selection, but fairly high prices. Other listmembers, what additions do you have to this book list? Doug --- USMCnewdog25431@cs.com wrote, in part : > List, > > With Christmas coming I was wondering what we would > consider the must have books for a PRR modeler modeling the 1940's- 1950's. > > > Also where would you suggest finding them? > What about this one? Alexander, Edwin P. The > Pennsylvania Railroad: A Pictorial History. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 06:53:19 -0500 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for a list of must have PRR books..... Doug, Mike and List, Allow me to throw out the following for consideration: 1. Set Up Running by John Orr. A biography of his father, O.P. Orr, who was an engineer on the PRR from 1904 to 1949. John describes with great detail the physical surroundings of the areas his father worked. While some of it falls somewhat outside your 1940's~1950's parameter, it is one of the best/easiest 'reads' of any book I've recently read. 2. Philip Hastings/Portrait of the Pennsylvania Railroad by Douglas Nelson. If you're going to model the transition era, this is the book. At yesterday's PHL Chapter PRRT&HS meeting, I didn't meet anybody who didn't sing the praises of this book as one of the best ever. 3. Crossroads of Commerce by Dan Cupper. Simply put, it has Grif Teller's paintings. You can look at them for a long time and let your imagination wander. What other inspiration does a modeler need? 4. Choose from the Trackside PRR books from Morning Sun: North of Washington and Under Pennsy Wires. Both are excellent photo histories. 5. My favorite Morning Sun book is PRR: Hudson to Horseshoe by William Volkmer Bill Morlitz >Doug Kisala wrote: > > Mike, list, > > What follows are some of my favorites. > > Pennsy Steam: A to T (Carleton, 1989, out of print) > > Pennsy Steam Years, Volume 2 (Morning Sun, in print) > > Pennsylvania RR: 1940s-1950s (by Don Ball...take the > text with a grain of salt, but the pictures are great) > > Pennsy Power III (Staufer Publishing) > > Black Gold-Black Diamonds, Volume 2 (by Eric > Hirsimaki) > > You can find errors in all of these books (and many > more in books I haven't mentioned, but that's another > story). > > I don't own the Alexander book, so I can't comment on > it. > > I have had good customer service from Raritan Bay > Hobbies (www.raritanbayhobbies.com) and from our > listmeister Jerry's Merchandise Service. For used > books, consider Ron's Books; good selection, but > fairly high prices. > > Other listmembers, what additions do you have to this > book list? > > Doug > > --- USMCnewdog25431@cs.com wrote, in part : > > List, > > > > With Christmas coming I was wondering what we would > > consider the must have books for a PRR modeler > modeling the 1940's- 1950's. > > > > > Also where would you suggest finding them? > > > What about this one? Alexander, Edwin P. The > > Pennsylvania Railroad: A Pictorial History. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Phil Paskos" Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for a list of must have PRR books..... Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 07:38:31 -0500 Add Alvin Staufer's Pennsy Power (1) Steam and Electric locos 1900-1957. That one is up to at least printing # 14 and I just bought a new copy at the Allentown train meet a few weeks ago. Phil > Mike, list, > > What follows are some of my favorites. > > Pennsy Steam: A to T (Carleton, 1989, out of print) > > Pennsy Steam Years, Volume 2 (Morning Sun, in print) > > Pennsylvania RR: 1940s-1950s (by Don Ball...take the > text with a grain of salt, but the pictures are great) > > Pennsy Power III (Staufer Publishing) > > Black Gold-Black Diamonds, Volume 2 (by Eric > Hirsimaki) > > You can find errors in all of these books (and many > more in books I haven't mentioned, but that's another > story). > > I don't own the Alexander book, so I can't comment on > it. > > I have had good customer service from Raritan Bay > Hobbies (www.raritanbayhobbies.com) and from our > listmeister Jerry's Merchandise Service. For used > books, consider Ron's Books; good selection, but > fairly high prices. > > Other listmembers, what additions do you have to this > book list? > > Doug > > --- USMCnewdog25431@cs.com wrote, in part : > > List, > > > > With Christmas coming I was wondering what we would > > consider the must have books for a PRR modeler > modeling the 1940's- 1950's. > > > > > Also where would you suggest finding them? > > > What about this one? Alexander, Edwin P. The > > Pennsylvania Railroad: A Pictorial History. > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] B6sb Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 08:13:37 -0500 Gary: I am anxiously awaiting the completion of your B6. It is always a pleasure to see your consummate skill at building things, especially those things that are not available commercially. I find it exciting to know that there are still people "out there" who can do things with brass, styrene, cardstock etc., and wind up with something PRR. BRAVO! Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 4:15 PM Subject: [PRR] B6sb > List, > > Here is a quick note on my newest project and response to Lew's > Challenge on scratch building. The 1:29th Scale B6sb is under way. Still > working on the Cab but it is progressing well. The Basic Cab is > fabricated and awaits detailing with Rivits and Window Frames. Here are > some pics. > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000692.jpg > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000693.jpg > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000694.jpg > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000695.jpg > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000696.jpg > > Next update will be when the Cab is completed, less paint of > course....Thanks, Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 10:52:58 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Looking for a list of must have PRR books..... This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_uYeuHwg2/Kt07aK9FPRF3A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Mike, For good pictures my choices are: For overall views of the PRR in action "The Pennsylvania Railroad - 1940s-1950s" by Don Ball - which I understand has recently been re-released. "Phillip R Hastings- Portrait of The Pennsylvania Railroad" by Doug Nelson - brand new just our. For equipment photos - the Morning Sun series "PRR Color Guides," Volumes 1-3. For diesel power - "Pennsy Diesels 1924-1968" by Douglas and Weighlin - brand new just out The series "Pennsylvania Railroad - Diesel Locomotive Pictorial" Volumes 1-7, Withers Publishing For steam and electric power - "Pennsy Power" Volumes 1-3 by Staufer For electric power - 'The Penny's P5 Electrics" by the PRRT&HS There are also several books covering various aspects of PRR history and operations that are not major picture books, and therefore not listed above. Check out any of the online used book sites or Amazon.com Al --Boundary_(ID_uYeuHwg2/Kt07aK9FPRF3A) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Mike,
 
For good pictures my choices are:
 
For overall views of the PRR in action
"The Pennsylvania Railroad - 1940s-1950s" by Don Ball - which I understand has recently been re-released.
"Phillip R Hastings- Portrait of The Pennsylvania Railroad" by Doug Nelson - brand new just our.
 
For equipment photos - the Morning Sun series "PRR Color Guides," Volumes 1-3.
 
For diesel power -
"Pennsy Diesels 1924-1968" by Douglas and Weighlin - brand new just out
The series "Pennsylvania Railroad - Diesel Locomotive Pictorial"  Volumes 1-7, Withers Publishing
 
For steam and electric power -
"Pennsy Power" Volumes 1-3 by Staufer
 
For electric power -
'The Penny's P5 Electrics" by the PRRT&HS
 
There are also several books covering various aspects of PRR history and operations that are not major picture books, and therefore not listed above.
 
Check out any of the online used book sites or Amazon.com
 
Al
--Boundary_(ID_uYeuHwg2/Kt07aK9FPRF3A)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KLJURY@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 11:29:10 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Must have books --part1_153.188bc911.2b24cd56_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While not in hard cover form the series of soft cover books on PRR diesels by Withers Publishing is an absolute must have for anyone intrested in the PRR in the 1940's and 50's. You can get them from witherspublishing.com. --part1_153.188bc911.2b24cd56_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While not in hard cover form the series of soft cover books on PRR
diesels by Withers Publishing is an absolute must have for anyone
intrested in the PRR in the 1940's and 50's. You can get them from
witherspublishing.com. --part1_153.188bc911.2b24cd56_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 11:38:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Head end cars on PRR trains In a message dated 12/8/02 7:06:53 AM Central Standard Time, lmatt@alltel.net writes: << By classification, I meant the PRR car type designation such as X29, X43, etc. >> Not being PRR cars, I believe they are AAR (not PRR) class BR . Refrigerator Express. An insulated car constructed and equipped for pasenger train service, having ice bunkers or ice boxes. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] Spectrum K4 Question Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 13:09:46 -0500

Looking at my Spectrum  K4, there is one thing that really bothers me about it. The pilot appears too far out front. Has anyone tried to correct this on the new version of this engine. If so, how easy is it and is it worth the effort?
Thanks,
Eric Lauterbach
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Spectrum K4 Question Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 15:25:05 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C29ECD.FC705620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eric, It is common on model locomotives to enlarge the wheelbase of the lead = truck and move the pilot forward to permit to lead truck to swing on the = much sharper than prototype curves of most model railroads. I wouln't = fool with it unles you have 60 inch minimum radius curves! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Eric Lauterbach=20 To: prr-talk=20 Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 1:09 PM Subject: [PRR] Spectrum K4 Question Looking at my Spectrum K4, there is one thing that really bothers me = about it. The pilot appears too far out front. Has anyone tried to = correct this on the new version of this engine. If so, how easy is it = and is it worth the effort? Thanks, Eric Lauterbach = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- = For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C29ECD.FC705620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Eric,
 
It is common on model locomotives to enlarge the = wheelbase of=20 the lead truck and move the pilot forward to permit to lead truck to = swing on=20 the much sharper than prototype curves of most model railroads. I = wouln't fool=20 with it unles you have 60 inch minimum radius curves!
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Eric Lauterbach
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 = 1:09=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Spectrum K4 = Question

Looking at my Spectrum  K4, there is one thing that really = bothers=20 me about it. The pilot appears too far out front. Has anyone tried to = correct=20 this on the new version of this engine. If so, how easy is it and is = it worth=20 the effort?
Thanks,
Eric=20 = Lauterbach
--------------------------------------------------= ---------------------=20 For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C29ECD.FC705620-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 16:08:05 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Railfanning Sunbury, Northumberland, Shamokin Branch From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" I had never railfanned the eastern shore of the Susquehanna, until yesterday. Actually the destination was Shamokin, but I chose a diverse route! Followed the RoW from ROCKVILLE through Millersburg, etc., to Sunbury. Found the Sunbury station quite easily. It looks pretty good. Have some pics to post tomorrow. Headed onward to just shy of Northumberland. Did cross the river, took some pics of the RR bridge, then returned to the park on the island on the North Branch of the Susquehanna. Took more pics. Then back to Sunbury. Took Rt 61 towards Shamokin. Both Reading and PRR rails are still in place. At Paxinos and Weigh Scales it was very easy to find the sites of so many of those well-known photographs of the ore traffic in the area. Thanks to "The Ore Train" video and the Prophet recordings, it was very surreal as you could almost imagine the trains coming up the grade. The 8 inches of snow on the ground just added to the effect. The huge Glen Burn Colliery on the west side of Shamokin is gone, but left behind are dozens of covered up "holes in the wall". The culm piles are immense. Will post pics of this as well. In Shamokin, there are only one set of tracks, still coming right through the streets. I think, however, these are the Reading tracks. But I could be wrong. Did travel on up to St. Michael since I had some extra time. Nothing worth noting. Returned to Shamokin for the main event... After many years of wanting to do it, I finally visited the Lower Antracite Model Railroad Club, home of the "Shamokin Valley Lines". The layout was featured in Model Railroader in 1999 and features excellent recreations of both the Reading and PRR lines from Northumberland, through Sunbury, Shamokin, to St. Michaels. If you've seen the prototype, scenes on the model are easily recognized. The MR article doesn't do justice to the sheer size of this layout. It deserves a visit if you are at all close. Well done! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 20:31:39 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Trust Plates Part deaux Hi All, OK, I am getting desperate here. I am getting trust plates made for a brass X-29 project, and I really need the following. Could you please look at you photos of standard X-29s and see if they have a trust plate on them? This would include REA versions as well. If they do, could you please tell me what the series of the trust is? If you could designate which is which, or better yet send me a scan of the photo, it would be MOST appreciated! Thank you in advance. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 20:31:39 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Trust Plates Part deaux Hi All, OK, I am getting desperate here. I am getting trust plates made for a brass X-29 project, and I really need the following. Could you please look at you photos of standard X-29s and see if they have a trust plate on them? This would include REA versions as well. If they do, could you please tell me what the series of the trust is? If you could designate which is which, or better yet send me a scan of the photo, it would be MOST appreciated! Thank you in advance. Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 22:36:56 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Spectrum K4 Question This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_l/5xBSOTMGqjKGpxNTuBZw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT If you want to start getting in manufacturers specs and how they compare to the prototype, then you will have a very large task on your hands. I am trying to figure a way to lower the pilot on a Bowser M1 because the bottom of the pilot seems to be much higher off the top of the rail than the prototype. Plastic K4 Spectrum pilot should not be too difficult to mount closer to the frame. Greg v -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gregg Mahlkov Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 3:25 PM To: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; prr-talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Spectrum K4 Question Eric, It is common on model locomotives to enlarge the wheelbase of the lead truck and move the pilot forward to permit to lead truck to swing on the much sharper than prototype curves of most model railroads. I wouln't fool with it unles you have 60 inch minimum radius curves! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric Lauterbach To: prr-talk Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 1:09 PM Subject: [PRR] Spectrum K4 Question Looking at my Spectrum K4, there is one thing that really bothers me about it. The pilot appears too far out front. Has anyone tried to correct this on the new version of this engine. If so, how easy is it and is it worth the effort? Thanks, Eric Lauterbach ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --Boundary_(ID_l/5xBSOTMGqjKGpxNTuBZw) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
If you want to start getting in manufacturers specs and how they compare to the prototype, then you will have a  very large task on your hands.  I am trying to figure a way to lower the pilot on a Bowser M1 because the bottom of the pilot seems to be much higher off the top of the rail than the prototype.  Plastic K4 Spectrum pilot should not be too difficult to mount closer to the frame.
 
Greg v
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gregg Mahlkov
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 3:25 PM
To: ealauterbach@earthlink.net; prr-talk
Subject: Re: [PRR] Spectrum K4 Question

Eric,
 
It is common on model locomotives to enlarge the wheelbase of the lead truck and move the pilot forward to permit to lead truck to swing on the much sharper than prototype curves of most model railroads. I wouln't fool with it unles you have 60 inch minimum radius curves!
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 1:09 PM
Subject: [PRR] Spectrum K4 Question

Looking at my Spectrum  K4, there is one thing that really bothers me about it. The pilot appears too far out front. Has anyone tried to correct this on the new version of this engine. If so, how easy is it and is it worth the effort?
Thanks,
Eric Lauterbach
----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
--Boundary_(ID_l/5xBSOTMGqjKGpxNTuBZw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 07:40:34 EST Subject: [PRR] Vital PRR books --part1_67.40a6e3a.2b25e942_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/8/02 1:12:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > List, > > With Christmas coming I was wondering what we would consider the must have > books for a PRR modeler modeling the 1940's- 1950's. > > Also where would you suggest finding them? Used or new doesn't matter (but > used would be cheaper :))! By the way, I personally like lots of color > pictures!!! > > What about this one? Alexander, Edwin P. The Pennsylvania Railroad: A > Pictorial History. New York: Bonanza Books, 1967Hard Cover. > I found this one used online for $10, Is this one?? > > Maybe this list should be put in the files section of the group? > Thanks in advance, > > Mike Schock > Sandusky, Ohio > Mike, The first question I would have is "what part of the country are you interested in?". And are you a modeler (you answered that), an ops hound, or a historian (we've got all three active on this list. As a freight car enthusiast, I think the 3 Color Guides are vital (Vols 2 and 3 by Ian Fischer are particularly good). John Teichmoeller's steel hopper car book digs deep into the subject of open hoppers; likely you'll want it too. These books, of course, have a systemwide appeal. A fact of many/most Pennsy books is that they concentrate on the Eastern Region divisions of the Pennsy. The older the book, the more this is true -- and the Alexander book you cite (much text, limited pix) is Of course, to tons of Pennsy fans, Harrisburg IS the West -- this is natural. Anyway, be aware that the older books have little to offer west of The Curve, except for occasional shots of maybe passenger trains on approach to Chicago Union Station. So -- I look at my bookshelf and see a great many PRR books that tell me about places I haven't been -- but if your interests are more localized, then we need to be more specific about which books will help you. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_67.40a6e3a.2b25e942_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/8/02 1:12:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


List,

With Christmas coming I was wondering what we would consider the must have
books for a PRR modeler modeling the 1940's- 1950's. 

Also where would you suggest finding them? Used or new doesn't matter (but
used would be cheaper :))!  By the way, I personally like lots of color
pictures!!!

What about this one? Alexander, Edwin P. The Pennsylvania Railroad: A
Pictorial History. New York: Bonanza Books, 1967Hard Cover.
I found this one used online for $10, Is this one??

Maybe this list should be put in the files section of the group?
Thanks in advance,

Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio


Mike,

The first question I would have is "what part of the country are you interested in?".   And are you a modeler (you answered that), an ops hound, or a historian (we've got all three active on this list.

As a freight car enthusiast, I think the 3 Color Guides are vital (Vols 2 and 3 by Ian Fischer are particularly good).  John Teichmoeller's steel hopper car book digs deep into the subject of open hoppers; likely you'll want it too.  These books, of course, have a systemwide appeal.

A fact of many/most Pennsy books is that they concentrate on the Eastern Region divisions of the Pennsy.  The older the book, the more this is true -- and the Alexander book you cite (much text, limited pix) is Of course, to tons of Pennsy fans, Harrisburg IS the West -- this is natural.  Anyway, be aware that the older books have little to offer west of The Curve, except for occasional shots of maybe passenger trains on approach to Chicago Union Station. 

So -- I look at my bookshelf and see a great many PRR books that tell me about places I haven't been -- but if your interests are more localized, then we need to be more specific about which books will help you.

                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_67.40a6e3a.2b25e942_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] M1 Question (was Spectrum K4 Question) Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 06:29:44 -0700 Greg and all, Unless you have vertical curves approximating the prototype I would strongly suggest leaving the pilot on the M1 alone. Otherwise you would be opening up a big can of worms. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:43:05 -0600 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] B60 kit questions Hello, all, This is a question/request for those of you who have (or have assembled) the B60 (actually a B60b) kit from Bethlehem Car Works. The decal set that comes with the kit from Middle Division has (if I remember right) three different lettering styles for the car. I am in need of the earliest of the three, a gold-leaf PENNSYLVANIA and the "American Railway Express" especially. Since most of you are modeling the later versions, if you still have the earlier part of this decal set around, I'd be interested in purchasing that part from you. Please contact me off-list if you can help. Thanks! George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:55:11 -0600 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] Early express box car and cabin car lettering Hello, everyone, I need some info on how the PRR lettered its boxcars and crew cars (more on this below) in dedicated express service in c.1920. There was a piece in the KEYSTONE a few years ago on this but the illustrated lettering was for cabin cars and mostly for period when Railway Express had been formed. But in 1920 it was still American Railway Express on the PRR. The boxcars in 1920 were primarily the X25's but there may have been some XL's still in this service. I'm guessing that the lettering specific to express service was laid out pretty much like we see in the later Railway Express era on, say, the express X29's, but more details would be appreciated. RE crew cars, a number of N5 cabin cars were in this service, as well as some wooden combines, such as the class Og. For the N5 lettering see KEYSTONE 29:2, pp. 50-51, for the lettering. It is essentially the style of lettering for express service of the later Railway Express era. But how would this have looked on the Og cars - where would the "AMERICAN RAILWAY EXPRESS" be placed? TIA, George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 10:20:40 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] M1 Question (was Spectrum K4 Question) Didnt look at the Spectrum K4 yet. I figured a way to shortend and lower the height on an M1 pilot. I took 2 pieces of a thicker sheet of brass, drilled and taped 0-80 holes through the 2 pieces with the pilot support stem in the middle. I then did the same to the support stem extending outward from the front of the cylinder/steam chest on the frame. Then drilled & tapped 0-80 there also. Now, the 2 joining pieces are side by side with a fairly good representation of pilot height and distance from the smokebox. Furthermore, If your good with measuring, you can use the 2 0-80 screws on the pilot side of the equation to bolster a Kadee coupler draft box for an operating pilot coupler using the side holes on the coupler box. Keep in mind, the space through the solid Post War pilot is small, so you are not going to get any side swing motion on the coupler, but it does work. I took another alternative with the pilot coupler. I scrapped the gear box theory since no coupler side motion worked, and just used a piece of .125 brass tubing to support the coupler(perfect size for diameter of the hole in the coupler's anchor end), and drill taped a 2-56 into the pilot straight up into the Reservoir Air tank that sits on top of the pilot. Just some options for those interested in doing pilot modifications. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of billd@gci-net.com Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 8:30 AM To: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr; Gregg Mahlkov; ealauterbach@earthlink.net; prr-talk Subject: Re: [PRR] M1 Question (was Spectrum K4 Question) Greg and all, Unless you have vertical curves approximating the prototype I would strongly suggest leaving the pilot on the M1 alone. Otherwise you would be opening up a big can of worms. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 16:23:44 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR C&M photos and information Here's the info on the C&M that Jeff had attached to his first message. Al ================== Locomotive Road Numbers C&M Went Diesel in 1950-51 FM H-20-44 Road Numbers as added in 1950 8937 8938 8940 8941 Two more added in 1956, Road Numbers 8939 8942 Alco RS-3 Road Numbers as of 1950 8892 8888 8990 9094 Alco S-4 Road Number 8901 Baldwin Road Number 5600 Late Steam Locomotives Steam phased out by 1953 L-1 Mikes Road #'s 138 4111 1338 6264 Consolidation 1760 Early Steam Locomotives Consolidation 589 Operations notes Steam era Consolidation switched yard at Cambridge and Newcomers. Freight and coal drags handled by L-1's Gas-Electric (Doodlebugs) handled passenger service Freight traffic was grain, coal, brick, lumber and general freight for station delivery. Engines turned on turntable at Cambridge and wye at Marietta, Newcomerstown and Bayard yards Light engine service at Cambridge. Major service at Dennison, OH Water, coal and engine repair located at Cambridge Early Diesel era (1950 through 1965) Coal mine runs were often 100+ car trains, usually handled by FM's Freight locals were RS-3's from Cambridge to Marietta Freight locals were RS-3's from Cambridge to Newcomerstown and Dover Baldwin switcher worked Newcomerstown and Cambridge yards Some F-9's saw freight service during wreck period Freight traffic was grain, coal, brick, lumber and general freight for station delivery. Light engine and fuel service at Cambridge Late Diesel era GP-9's handled all the C&M north and south of Cambridge Baldwin switcher lasted for a short while at Cambridge and Alco S-4 at Newcomerstown yards Freight traffic was grain for farmers co-ops, coal and brick Enjoy. Jeff Taylor ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 19:31:22 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Early express box car and cabin car lettering Hi George, I face a similar question, as I model PRR in 1929, the year of the formation of REA. Therefore, I'd like to have some cars lettered ARE! For an ARE-lettered X-29, see http://PRR.Railfan.net/documents/Information/1928-06.html/page11.gif Also, there were express-service Rf and R-7 reefers in service at this time, lettered (IIRC) ARE. A pic shows up on page 160 of Triumph 5. It shows a train of these powered by a K4 running past Manhattan Transfer. K4 still has low-sided (70-p-70?) tender and has square oil headlight. As is usual for the Triumph series, the caption is incorrect and refers to this as a freight train. - Claus Date sent: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:55:11 -0600 From: gpierson@trnty.edu To: PRR list , PRR-talk Subject: [PRR] Early express box car and cabin car lettering > Hello, everyone, > > I need some info on how the PRR lettered its boxcars and crew cars (more on > this below) in dedicated express service in c.1920. There was a piece in the > KEYSTONE a few years ago on this but the illustrated lettering was for cabin > cars and mostly for period when Railway Express had been formed. But in 1920 > it was still American Railway Express on the PRR. > > The boxcars in 1920 were primarily the X25's but there may have been some XL's > still in this service. I'm guessing that the lettering specific to express > service was laid out pretty much like we see in the later Railway Express era > on, say, the express X29's, but more details would be appreciated. > > RE crew cars, a number of N5 cabin cars were in this service, as well as some > wooden combines, such as the class Og. For the N5 lettering see KEYSTONE > 29:2, pp. 50-51, for the lettering. It is essentially the style of lettering > for express service of the later Railway Express era. But how would this have > looked on the Og cars - where would the "AMERICAN RAILWAY EXPRESS" be placed? > > TIA, > > George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 02:57:11 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Some Assignments of Appliance Cars In a message dated 12/7/02 8:37:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, Mizebooks@hotmail.com writes: > POOL > > > AT is General Electric Appliance Park in Louisville. > > > > > > Stuart > Stuart, Pool AA was my pool at GE Appliance Park Louisville. We started circa 1958? with 40 footers (8 foot doors, mostly DF bars). I think the fleet was from 26 roads, and included L&N blue cars with late 50's "Old Reliable" script on them in yellow. Also included were PRR X29F rebuilds turned out by Altoona in "SK2a" shaded keystone lettering of the late 50's. These X29F's had Spartan TriBelts, which turned out to be inferior to Evans' DF bars. Then sometime after 1968 we received our first 60 foot high cubes (10 foot doors), which had low-pressure (air) bulkheads to lock the loads in place. More trivia -- the first 60 foot appliance high cubes were designed by Robert Reebie's marketing gang at NYC and were designed for the Frigidaire plant in Dayton (technically, Moraine City). However, these cars were delivered in PC green as X64's, and were soon followed by the X64A's (I never knew the difference except car numbers). As GM's Frigidaire Division fell on hard times (and eventually shut down -- the name was sold to White Consolidated Industries, who now makes and markets Frigidaire), we got more and more of this X64 Frigidaire Fleet reassigned to us in Louisville. But our 60' assigned fleet was diverse, too, with many UP, B&O (blue), L&N (blue), Southern, and others -- all contributed to the pool by those roads getting a linehaul. There was another fleet of similar cars assigned to our "Hotpoint" factory in Cicero IL, switched by the B&O Chicago Terminal RR. For some reason that fleet had PRR X29G forties instead of X29F's. And there was a third fleet in Columbia MD switched by the B&O. The Columbia fleet was all 60' high cubes because they only handled longhauls to our Regional Distribution Centers -- no 40' cars because virtually all customer orders shipped from there were close enough for trucks. Finally, there was a fleet for our Bloomington refrigerator plant (on the Monon), which built side-by-sides. These wouldn't fit two-high in a 60' hicube, and cars we received from that plant tended to be 50 footers. I'm not sure if they originally had a fleet of forties or not. Oh yes - pool AJ was for our competitor Whirlpool Evansville, a refrigerator plant. Trivia -- some of their cars weren't much like ours. In the Seventies, that location was using a number of 50 foot UP cars that had had their roofs raised to accomodate refrigerators stacked two high. They also had some ugly ducklings (tall 40 footers), some converted from regular cars and some purpose-built like the Athearn car. And there was a vast fleet of 40 foot DF cars like ours, with the usual large fraction of L&N (blue) and Southern boxes (too old to have "Green Light for Innovations). I know less about various appliance factories in northern Ohio -- apparently the Whirlpool plant in Marion OH may have had some 40' ugly duckling high cubes up there, in a pool switched by the Erie. There were plants on the PRR's "Fort Wayne" line in Mansfield, but I never knew much about their assigned cars. I've also seen pix of cars I believe were assigned to plant(s) in Columbus on the PRR/Panhandle, but lack good data here. As discussed most recently on the L&N list, these equipped cars were moved under AAR Car Service Directive 145. We used to tease our traffic manager because his initials were also "CSD" -- actually, Charlie Davis probably had a lot to do with AAR setting up CSD 145. Our in-house yard at Appliance Park in suburban Louisville had 3 (GE industrial) switchers working 3 shifts and 13 miles of track, with the Southern taking about half the originations out the north end (Buechel KY on the line to Danville and then Cincinnati or Chattanooga) and the L&N pulling out the south end on an extension of the "Ford spur" which led from us to Strawberry/Osborne Yard. As mentioned, the assignment of cars to our pool under CSD 145 meant we didn't have to worry about loading a UP car to the east or a PC car to the West Coast. In fact, the L&N would pull out just about as many Southern cars as it did L&N. We used to ship roughly 25,000 carloads a year, or averaging a little over 110 on days the plant was running. For the car enthusiast, one of the big transitions in the early 70's was the rebuilding of Monon forties at South Louisville Shops into "new" blue DF cars for us. Most of the original fleet of assigned forties (e.g. PRR, SP, Southern) tended to soldier on in their original paint until they were dragged away to the scrapyard. For the modeler, these appliance cars are a little tricky. The DF forties might have appeared on any line from any of our locations to anywhere there was a rail customer (and this could be a franchised distributor until late in the 60's). The 60 foot (and maybe 40') high cubes treaded only certain routes going to and from distribution centers from the factory. Thus, you either saw a lot of these cars (possibly running in cuts) or you didn't see any. Of course, the same comments apply to CSD 145 cars (boxes or trilevels) equipped for auto/auto parts service. BTW, our output to the northeast left Louisville on either the L&N's Short Line, or on Southern trains to Danville and then Cincinnati. From interchange in Cincinnati, at least half these cars ran up the PRR through Columbus and to points east. For those of you who want more info (like specific car numbers), I would have to dig into some old slides and papers -- but it could happen some day. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 02:57:11 EST Subject: [PRR] Some Assignments of Appliance Cars --part1_180.12894ccd.2b26f857_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/7/02 8:37:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, Mizebooks@hotmail.com writes: > POOL > > > AT is General Electric Appliance Park in Louisville. > > > > > > Stuart > Stuart, Pool AA was my pool at GE Appliance Park Louisville. We started circa 1958? with 40 footers (8 foot doors, mostly DF bars). I think the fleet was from 26 roads, and included L&N blue cars with late 50's "Old Reliable" script on them in yellow. Also included were PRR X29F rebuilds turned out by Altoona in "SK2a" shaded keystone lettering of the late 50's. These X29F's had Spartan TriBelts, which turned out to be inferior to Evans' DF bars. Then sometime after 1968 we received our first 60 foot high cubes (10 foot doors), which had low-pressure (air) bulkheads to lock the loads in place. More trivia -- the first 60 foot appliance high cubes were designed by Robert Reebie's marketing gang at NYC and were designed for the Frigidaire plant in Dayton (technically, Moraine City). However, these cars were delivered in PC green as X64's, and were soon followed by the X64A's (I never knew the difference except car numbers). As GM's Frigidaire Division fell on hard times (and eventually shut down -- the name was sold to White Consolidated Industries, who now makes and markets Frigidaire), we got more and more of this X64 Frigidaire Fleet reassigned to us in Louisville. But our 60' assigned fleet was diverse, too, with many UP, B&O (blue), L&N (blue), Southern, and others -- all contributed to the pool by those roads getting a linehaul. There was another fleet of similar cars assigned to our "Hotpoint" factory in Cicero IL, switched by the B&O Chicago Terminal RR. For some reason that fleet had PRR X29G forties instead of X29F's. And there was a third fleet in Columbia MD switched by the B&O. The Columbia fleet was all 60' high cubes because they only handled longhauls to our Regional Distribution Centers -- no 40' cars because virtually all customer orders shipped from there were close enough for trucks. Finally, there was a fleet for our Bloomington refrigerator plant (on the Monon), which built side-by-sides. These wouldn't fit two-high in a 60' hicube, and cars we received from that plant tended to be 50 footers. I'm not sure if they originally had a fleet of forties or not. Oh yes - pool AJ was for our competitor Whirlpool Evansville, a refrigerator plant. Trivia -- some of their cars weren't much like ours. In the Seventies, that location was using a number of 50 foot UP cars that had had their roofs raised to accomodate refrigerators stacked two high. They also had some ugly ducklings (tall 40 footers), some converted from regular cars and some purpose-built like the Athearn car. And there was a vast fleet of 40 foot DF cars like ours, with the usual large fraction of L&N (blue) and Southern boxes (too old to have "Green Light for Innovations). I know less about various appliance factories in northern Ohio -- apparently the Whirlpool plant in Marion OH may have had some 40' ugly duckling high cubes up there, in a pool switched by the Erie. There were plants on the PRR's "Fort Wayne" line in Mansfield, but I never knew much about their assigned cars. I've also seen pix of cars I believe were assigned to plant(s) in Columbus on the PRR/Panhandle, but lack good data here. As discussed most recently on the L&N list, these equipped cars were moved under AAR Car Service Directive 145. We used to tease our traffic manager because his initials were also "CSD" -- actually, Charlie Davis probably had a lot to do with AAR setting up CSD 145. Our in-house yard at Appliance Park in suburban Louisville had 3 (GE industrial) switchers working 3 shifts and 13 miles of track, with the Southern taking about half the originations out the north end (Buechel KY on the line to Danville and then Cincinnati or Chattanooga) and the L&N pulling out the south end on an extension of the "Ford spur" which led from us to Strawberry/Osborne Yard. As mentioned, the assignment of cars to our pool under CSD 145 meant we didn't have to worry about loading a UP car to the east or a PC car to the West Coast. In fact, the L&N would pull out just about as many Southern cars as it did L&N. We used to ship roughly 25,000 carloads a year, or averaging a little over 110 on days the plant was running. For the car enthusiast, one of the big transitions in the early 70's was the rebuilding of Monon forties at South Louisville Shops into "new" blue DF cars for us. Most of the original fleet of assigned forties (e.g. PRR, SP, Southern) tended to soldier on in their original paint until they were dragged away to the scrapyard. For the modeler, these appliance cars are a little tricky. The DF forties might have appeared on any line from any of our locations to anywhere there was a rail customer (and this could be a franchised distributor until late in the 60's). The 60 foot (and maybe 40') high cubes treaded only certain routes going to and from distribution centers from the factory. Thus, you either saw a lot of these cars (possibly running in cuts) or you didn't see any. Of course, the same comments apply to CSD 145 cars (boxes or trilevels) equipped for auto/auto parts service. BTW, our output to the northeast left Louisville on either the L&N's Short Line, or on Southern trains to Danville and then Cincinnati. From interchange in Cincinnati, at least half these cars ran up the PRR through Columbus and to points east. For those of you who want more info (like specific car numbers), I would have to dig into some old slides and papers -- but it could happen some day. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_180.12894ccd.2b26f857_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/7/02 8:37:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, Mizebooks@hotmail.com writes:


POOL
> > AT is General Electric Appliance Park in Louisville.
> >
> > Stuart


Stuart,

Pool AA was my pool at GE Appliance Park Louisville.  We started circa 1958? with 40 footers (8 foot doors, mostly DF bars).  I think the fleet was from 26 roads, and included L&N blue cars with late 50's "Old Reliable" script on them in yellow.  Also included were PRR X29F rebuilds turned out by Altoona in "SK2a" shaded keystone lettering of the late 50's.  These X29F's had Spartan TriBelts, which turned out to be inferior to Evans' DF bars. 

Then sometime after 1968 we received our first 60 foot high cubes (10 foot doors), which had low-pressure (air) bulkheads to lock the loads in place.  More trivia -- the first 60 foot appliance high cubes were designed by Robert Reebie's marketing gang at NYC and were designed for the Frigidaire plant in Dayton (technically, Moraine City).  However, these cars were delivered in PC green as X64's, and were soon followed by the X64A's (I never knew the difference except car numbers).  As GM's Frigidaire Division fell on hard times (and eventually shut down -- the name was sold to White Consolidated Industries, who now makes and markets Frigidaire), we got more and more of this X64 Frigidaire Fleet reassigned to us in Louisville.  But our 60' assigned fleet was diverse, too, with many UP, B&O (blue), L&N (blue), Southern, and others -- all contributed to the pool by those roads getting a linehaul.

There was another fleet of similar cars assigned to our "Hotpoint" factory in Cicero IL, switched by the B&O Chicago Terminal RR.  For some reason that fleet had PRR X29G forties instead of X29F's.  And there was a third fleet in Columbia MD switched by the B&O.  The Columbia fleet was all 60' high cubes because they only handled longhauls to our Regional Distribution Centers -- no 40' cars because virtually all customer orders shipped from there were close enough for trucks. 

Finally, there was a fleet for our Bloomington refrigerator plant (on the Monon), which built side-by-sides.  These wouldn't fit two-high in a 60' hicube, and cars we received from that plant tended to be 50 footers.  I'm not sure if they originally had a fleet of forties or not.

Oh yes - pool AJ was for our competitor Whirlpool Evansville, a refrigerator plant.  Trivia -- some of their cars weren't much like ours.  In the Seventies, that location was using a number of 50 foot UP cars that had had their roofs raised to accomodate refrigerators stacked two high.  They also had some ugly ducklings (tall 40 footers), some converted from regular cars and some purpose-built like the Athearn car.  And there was a vast fleet of 40 foot DF cars like ours, with the usual large fraction of L&N (blue) and Southern boxes (too old to have "Green Light for Innovations).

I know less about various appliance factories in northern Ohio -- apparently the Whirlpool plant in Marion OH may have had some 40' ugly duckling high cubes up there, in a pool switched by the Erie.  There were plants on the PRR's "Fort Wayne" line in Mansfield, but I never knew much about their assigned cars.  I've also seen pix of cars I believe were assigned to plant(s) in Columbus on the PRR/Panhandle, but lack good data here.

As discussed most recently on the L&N list, these equipped cars were moved under AAR Car Service Directive 145.  We used to tease our traffic manager because his initials were also "CSD" -- actually, Charlie Davis probably had a lot to do with AAR setting up CSD 145.  Our in-house yard at Appliance Park in suburban Louisville had 3 (GE industrial) switchers working 3 shifts and 13 miles of track, with the Southern taking about half the originations out the north end (Buechel KY on the line to Danville and then Cincinnati or Chattanooga) and the L&N pulling out the south end on an extension of the "Ford spur" which led from us to Strawberry/Osborne Yard.  As mentioned, the assignment of cars to our pool under CSD 145 meant we didn't have to worry about loading a UP car to the east or a PC car to the West Coast.  In fact, the L&N would pull out just about as many Southern cars as it did L&N.  We used to ship roughly 25,000 carloads a year, or aver
For the car enthusiast, one of the big transitions in the early 70's was the rebuilding of Monon forties at South Louisville Shops into "new" blue DF cars for us.  Most of the original fleet of assigned forties (e.g. PRR, SP, Southern) tended to soldier on in their original paint until they were dragged away to the scrapyard.

For the modeler, these appliance cars are a little tricky.  The DF forties might have appeared on any line from any of our locations to anywhere there was a rail customer (and this could be a franchised distributor until late in the 60's).  The 60 foot (and maybe 40') high cubes treaded only certain routes going to and from distribution centers from the factory.  Thus, you either saw a lot of these cars (possibly running in cuts) or you didn't see any.  Of course, the same comments apply to CSD 145 cars (boxes or trilevels) equipped for auto/auto parts service.

BTW, our output to the northeast left Louisville on either the L&N's Short Line, or on Southern trains to Danville and then Cincinnati.  From interchange in Cincinnati, at least half these cars ran up the PRR through Columbus and to points east.  For those of you who want more info (like specific car numbers), I would have to dig into some old slides and papers -- but it could happen some day.

                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_180.12894ccd.2b26f857_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Keystone Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 17:37:15 +0000 Two of us got our Winter Keystone yesterday in the Chicago area. Has anyone else gotten them yet? if so when? Thanks ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:45:24 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone From: Jerry Britton On 12/10/02 12:37 PM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > Two of us got our Winter Keystone yesterday in the Chicago area. Has anyone > else gotten them yet? if so when? Thanks > Got mine last Friday (southcentral Pennsylvania). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 11:56:17 -0600 Norm and List, Received my Keystone yesterday (Monday) also. Pete Reinhold Prairie Du Sac, WI Two of us got our Winter Keystone yesterday in the Chicago area. Has anyone else gotten them yet? if so when? Thanks -----------------------------------------------------------------------o m. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:16:02 +0000 Got mine Friday too. Ted Indianapolis >From: Jerry Britton >To: , PRR-Talk LIST >Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone >Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:45:24 -0500 > >On 12/10/02 12:37 PM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > > > Two of us got our Winter Keystone yesterday in the Chicago area. Has >anyone > > else gotten them yet? if so when? Thanks > > >Got mine last Friday (southcentral Pennsylvania). >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 13:13:27 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone It arrived in the Boston area Saturday. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Two of us got our Winter Keystone yesterday in the Chicago area. Has anyone > else gotten them yet? if so when? Thanks > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 14:53:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone --part1_3d.28d34811.2b27a027_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mine arrived last Friday in Altoona, Pa. Pat McKinney --part1_3d.28d34811.2b27a027_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mine arrived last Friday in Altoona, Pa.

Pat McKinney --part1_3d.28d34811.2b27a027_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:06:17 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2A087.75A36C8E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Got mine last Friday in Putnam Valley NY (50mi north of NYC) Chris ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2A087.75A36C8E Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Got mine last Friday in Putnam Valley NY (50mi north of NYC)
 
Chris
------_=_NextPart_001_01C2A087.75A36C8E-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:50:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone List, Not wanting to sound snobby or anything, but are we going to go thru this Keystone questionere every quater when the issue is due? The Keystone gets to the subscribers when it gets there. Its not a competition on who gets it first or the wonders were their issue is. If you are paid up, you will receive, sooner or later.....Just my 2 cents and probably 5 dozen other's as well.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:52:50 -0500 Subject: END THREAD! Re: [PRR] Keystone From: Jerry Britton On 12/10/02 3:50 PM, Gary Mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote: > Not wanting to sound snobby or anything, but are we going to go thru > this Keystone questionere every quater when the issue is due? The > Keystone gets to the subscribers when it gets there. Its not a > competition on who gets it first or the wonders were their issue is. If > you are paid up, you will receive, sooner or later.....Just my 2 cents > and probably 5 dozen other's as well.....Gary > Gary is right. Let's say we cut this off here and drop subsequent comments...unless they pertain to the articles in this issue themselves. Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmaster ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 15:08:23 -0600 At least with respect to the convention, it may make quite a difference when society material is received, especially when certain convention events (such as the steel mill tour) are limited to a first come, first serve basis. I know this was a complaint of one of the attendees last year, who sent his payment for the steel mile tour immediately after his receiving his application, only to be turned down because he was too late. I realize if one has a computer, one might have been aware of the tour before the convention packet was sent. But not every one has a computer or access to the PRR website. -----Original Message----- From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 2:50 PM To: jerry@pennsyrr.com Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone List, Not wanting to sound snobby or anything, but are we going to go thru this Keystone questionere every quater when the issue is due? The Keystone gets to the subscribers when it gets there. Its not a competition on who gets it first or the wonders were their issue is. If you are paid up, you will receive, sooner or later.....Just my 2 cents and probably 5 dozen other's as well.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Frank & Andrea Amato" Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:23:44 GMT Subject: [PRR] Shackamaxon Hi all, I'm sketching the Delaware Avenue section of my N scale layout plan, trying to squeeze in the Shackamaxon yard and freight house at the north end of the branch. The "High Line" back issues covering Del Ave are inspiring! Anyway, where was the Pennsylvania Sugar Co located, in relation to Shack yard? The CTC-1000 shows 5 (!) sidings right at the yard location... Also, any pictures of this area out there? I have the Phila Terminal Triumph book, which has some great maps, and there are a few shots in the Morning Sun PRR books. I live in Iowa now, otherwise I'd head down to U of Penn for some quality research! Thanks in advance! Frank ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:36:59 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Keystone In answer to Marvin's comment about the arrival of materials from the PRRT&HS. Annual meeting materials as well as membership renewal forms are sent out under separate cover not with "The Keystone." It's true that some people had a leg up last year because of the ability provided by posting the annual meeting sign-up form on the internet. That affected both the vendor's ability to get tables and participant's ability to make the steel tour. I think that we might only post the program online this year and not do the registration form, however, that will be up to the PHL Chapter. Having said that, everybody is still at the mercy of the US Postal Service distribution patterns and there isn't anything the society can do about that! FYI I still haven't gotten my annual membership renewal and "Keystone" auction form yet. I've actually given up on them as being lost. As it stands at the present time there may be several tours this year, one Thursday afternoon, two Friday morning, both repeated in the afternoon and a combination tour on Sunday. Plus there will be an opportunity to do local area railfanning all day Friday, with hopefully a railfans guide to the local area. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 17:46:21 -0500 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > Two of us got our Winter Keystone yesterday in the Chicago area. Has anyone > else gotten them yet? if so when? Thanks I received mine last Friday here in the Philadelphia area. Chuck did a really great job as usual. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 18:06:57 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Columbia-Wrightsville Bridge (was [PRR] Keystone) It seemed from the article, and would explain why the bridge was so bizarre looking, that it had been designed with the idea that an upper deck could be added for other traffic; Was there a reference in the article I missed other than where they decided not to spend the extra money on adding one? One wonders if the bridge would survive today had it gotten a deck, and presumably said deck would have been 2 lanes, so I'll further guess that: -the 1930 Lincoln Highway bridge would have happened later -we'd still have ended up with a pre-expressway Lincoln Highway bridge It would have been the opposite of the B&O (Pittsburgh & Western) bridge at Foxburg, (where the eastern approach bridged the PRR's Allegheny Valley line) where the rails were on the upper deck. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Laird" Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 17:23:02 -0600 Mine arrived yesterday in central Texas. Bill Laird Canyon Lake, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 11:37 AM Subject: [PRR] Keystone > Two of us got our Winter Keystone yesterday in the Chicago area. Has anyone > else gotten them yet? if so when? Thanks > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] X42 mail storage car Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 18:57:25 -0500 Gary: Do you know where I can get a copy of the magazines ( I believe RMC and MR respectively ) that featured the prototype drawing of the X42 60' mail storage car and a kitbash article of the same? Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: "Jerry Britton" Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 3:50 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone > List, > > Not wanting to sound snobby or anything, but are we going to go thru > this Keystone questionere every quater when the issue is due? The > Keystone gets to the subscribers when it gets there. Its not a > competition on who gets it first or the wonders were their issue is. If > you are paid up, you will receive, sooner or later.....Just my 2 cents > and probably 5 dozen other's as well.....Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] X42 mail storage car Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:49:01 -0500 Lew Matt asked: Do you know where I can get a copy of the magazines ( I believe RMC and MR respectively) that featured the prototype drawing of the X42 60' mail storage car and a kitbash article of the same? Lew, the RMC article features drawings by Chuck Yungkurth, text by Richard Burg, a 3/4 B end builder's photo of PRR 2548, and a photo of PC 37791 (a SK paint-out, indicating some cars got repainted into SK schemes). It's on page 76 of the October 1999 RMC, still available from Carstens @ $4.50 each (PO Box 700, Newton NJ 07860, (800) 474-6995), although you can probably get it cheaper at a hobby shop that stocks back issues or on a dealer's table at a swap meet. I tried looking for the MR article on the Model Train Magazine Index (http://index.mrmag.com), but had no luck getting it to come up. IIRC, the kitbash article dates back from the early 1970s. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:40:50 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Convention Tour Registration From: "Douglas Nelson" For us geographically disadvantaged members on the left coast, the web posting of the convention registration forms evened the playing field for us and actually gave us a chance to attend the tour. For the record, we also returned our registration via Express Mail. In previous years, we never had a chance to attend the popular tours. The steel mill tour was great! Doug Nelson Mill Valley, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] X42 mail storage car Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 08:34:34 -0500 The March, 1979 issue of the Snapper has a kitbash article on the X42. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: Benjamin Frank Hom To: Lewis J. Matt PhD Cc: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 9:52 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] X42 mail storage car >Lew Matt asked: >Do you know where I can get a copy of the magazines ( I believe RMC and MR >respectively) that featured the prototype drawing of the X42 60' mail >storage car and a kitbash article of the same? > >Lew, the RMC article features drawings by Chuck Yungkurth, text by Richard >Burg, a 3/4 B end builder's photo of PRR 2548, and a photo of PC 37791 (a SK >paint-out, indicating some cars got repainted into SK schemes). It's on >page 76 of the October 1999 RMC, still available from Carstens @ $4.50 each >(PO Box 700, Newton NJ 07860, (800) 474-6995), although you can probably get >it cheaper at a hobby shop that stocks back issues or on a dealer's table at >a swap meet. > >I tried looking for the MR article on the Model Train Magazine Index >(http://index.mrmag.com), but had no luck getting it to come up. IIRC, the >kitbash article dates back from the early 1970s. > > >Ben Hom > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] E bay car Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:59:23 +0000 There is an REA car on E bay that is up today. It is an MDC box in Tuscan with Pennsylvania on the left side and Railway Express Agency on the right side. Aside from the car issue is this a legitimate paint scheme becasue I don't recall ever seeing it before. Thanks, N Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR T1 Headlight on snout. Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:02:49 -0500 Group, Sitting here at work with T1 # 5536 on my desktop and just was wondering what the 2nd headlight was used for on the T1? Any special purpose? Was it used when they were specials? Just wondering... Sam Vastano PRR SPF With accounting degree.....Should have been born 50 years earlier! _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:39:13 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] E bay car Norm, If it's MDC it can't be an X29 and as far as I can recall the only boxcars w/ both PRR and REA lettering were class X29. Yes, there were class X29 boxcars w/ PRR and REA lettering in the CK scheme. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 18:21:35 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - We're Back! From: Jerry Britton The ice storm in the northeast knocked out power in our area from about 2:30 p.m. until 6:15 p.m. Temperatures are rising, so hopefully the juice will keep flowing! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmaster ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:09:51 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR T1 Headlight on snout. >Group, > >Sitting here at work with T1 # 5536 on my desktop and just was wondering >what the 2nd headlight was used for on the T1? Any special purpose? Was it >used when they were specials? Just wondering... > >Sam Vastano Sam, I've heard it called a "fog light"...if that helps clear things up ! I know that it was not a standard headlight nor was a gyralight or mars light. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:13:25 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR T1 Headlight on snout. Wasn't the top one a MARS light? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Sam Vastano wrote: > Group, > > Sitting here at work with T1 # 5536 on my desktop and just was wondering > what the 2nd headlight was used for on the T1? Any special purpose? Was it > used when they were specials? Just wondering... > > Sam Vastano > > PRR SPF With accounting degree.....Should have been born 50 years earlier! > > _________________________________________________________________ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:46:52 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] NS to close e/b hump at Conway Here's the story: www.timesonline.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=6348330&BRD=2305&PAG=461&dept_id=478569&rfi=6 Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:52:29 -0500 From: Zak Subject: Re: [PRR] E bay car List, I do not know if the link below bears a lot on your question, but it has some neat info on X29 cars. As usual, I found it by accident while wandering around the web. http://www.trainweb.org/jssand/Foreign/PRR.htm Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: ; "'PRR-Talk'" Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 2:39 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] E bay car > Norm, > > If it's MDC it can't be an X29 and as far as I can recall the only > boxcars w/ both PRR and REA lettering were class X29. > Yes, there were class X29 boxcars w/ PRR and REA lettering in the CK > scheme. > > Al > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 19:29:12 -0600 From: gpierson@trnty.edu Subject: [PRR] X23 Senior moment Hi, everyone, OK, I'm not that old but dog-goned if my memory doesn't need some occasional group assistance. For example, I could swear that in some PRR-related book or magazine I've seen a good photo of an X23 boxcar lettered for the PRR Union Line, with the circle-star logo. I need to find that photo for reference purposes but I've tried a number of books and magazines from my collection and come up blank. What I want to know is how they located the circle-star logo amidst the copious outside bracing of the X23. Help! George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] E bay car Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:04:21 -0500 Norm Bell asked: There is an REA car on E bay that is up today. It is an MDC box in Tuscan with Pennsylvania on the left side and Railway Express Agency on the right side. Aside from the car issue is this a legitimate paint scheme because I don't recall ever seeing it before. Norm, is this the car? I couldn't find any MDC car fitting your description: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1923527878 Aside from the incorrect car and the fact that the lettering is poorly done, this is a legitimate scheme - one that was applied to approximately 800 Class X29 express boxcars between 1930 and 1954. Here's a photo of a restored express car at the Valley Railroad Museum: http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/prr/prr-xm-9495.jpg There's a shop photo of PRR 2185 in Brady McGuire's article in the Summer 1998 Keystone. The reason you haven't noticed this scheme before is because it's normally underneath a ton of grime! As for the auction, hope the buyer's happy with the purchase - $20.50 is probably a bit much for a Mantua boxcar. Check your local hobby shops - you might be able to turn a profit from someone's dead stock! One more thing - please include the eBay item number if you have questions on a particular item - it makes the one in question a lot easier to find! Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: [PRR] X23 Senior moment Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 22:58:37 -0500 George Pierson asked: ...I could swear that in some PRR-related book or magazine I've seen a good photo of an X23 boxcar lettered for the PRR Union Line, with the circle-star logo. I need to find that photo for reference purposes but I've tried a number of books and magazines from my collection and come up blank. What I want to know is how they located the circle-star logo amidst the copious outside bracing of the X23. George, check with Gary Rausch. He has a photo of an X23 with the Union Line circle-star logo in the slide show he uses for his Pennsy Boxcar clinic. The only reason I remember it because the car in question has a coaling tower lying on top of it after a tornado dropped it on top of the car. The boxcar is in surprisingly good shape considering the circumstances, proof positive that the design was somewhat overbuilt! Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 00:38:33 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR T1 Headlight on snout. In a message dated 12/11/02 1:12:48 PM Central Standard Time, svastano@hotmail.com writes: << Sitting here at work with T1 # 5536 on my desktop and just was wondering what the 2nd headlight was used for on the T1 >> Everything I have ever read about the second lights on T1s or K4s was that they were fog lights. In fact I have read in the last week or two a narrative stating that a lot of the K4s engineers liked to use them alone in the fog. Others liked to use both lights under certain circumstances. Now I wish I could remember where I read it. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 21:53:02 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Differences between B6 subclasses Hi Doug, W/ regard to the B6sb, you wrote: > Around 1924, the cylinder slant on the B6sb was > changed and the large cab (similar to H9s, E6s, etc) > was changed to one that was similar to a K4s/L1s/I1sa > cab (8 feet long for the older cabs, about 6 feet long > for the small steel cabs). I'm a little uncler on the exact meaning. Did you intend to say that all further NEW production of B6sb locos (after 1924) had these new characteristics, or did you mean that existing locos were CONVERTED to these characteristics? - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 06:44:32 -0500 From: TWRimer@uss.com Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/12/02 Mainline Models 50' wooden Express reefer A friend asked me to build a PRR lettered Mainline Models express reefer for him. This is a kit from the 1960's or perhaps even earlier. The sides, letterboards, and ends are prepainted tuscan and lettered for Pennsy, but the directions indicate that the roof should be painted buff. I can't recall ever seeing a PRR (or for that matter any other railroad) with a buff colored roof. The car has a fishbelly underframe and was produced with many different roadnames. First, did the PRR ever have such a piece of rolling stock, and if so, was the roof truely buff? It just seems natural that the roof , grab irons, reefer hinges, brake wheel, and underframe should be black. Is anyone familiar with early Pennsy express reefers? Tom Rimer twr2244@aol.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:29:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR T1 Headlight on snout. In a message dated 12/11/02 11:45:57 PM, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << Everything I have ever read about the second lights on T1s or K4s was that they were fog lights. In fact I have read in the last week or two a narrative stating that a lot of the K4s engineers liked to use them alone in the fog. Others liked to use both lights under certain circumstances. Now I wish I could remember where I read it. >> Not quite on point, but it is one of my favorite recollections of my years on the Pennsy. I was riding an engine pulling a train (CBF-1, CBF-2 ?) from Buffalo to somewhere south and east. We were moving at night, through a light snow and through very rural territory and things were just about on automatic. I noticed that the engineer didn't seem to have his hands on the controls that he should have had them on. He explained that there were so many deer around that, at night, the engine's headlight would freeze them on the track and that, if the engine hit a deer, the engineer had the responsibility of cleaning the remains off the front of the engine. So, he rode with one hand on the headlight switch and the other on the whistle. When he saw a deer on the tracks, he'd flip off the lights and "unfreeze" the deer, then blow the whistle and scare him off the track. He did this several times during the trip. The second light might have been aimed off center to give the engineer same ambient light at a time when, for some reason, he did not want a powerful main beam directly to the front. A sharp curve might be such a situation. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 20:57:17 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk passenger sharks From: Beth Caples How close does the wheel base of a DL-109 compare to that of a shark nose passenger diesel? I have been wanting to kit bash one in HO for years but no one makes a suitable chassis to use as a starting point! John Caples p.s. You know what will happen. As soon as I build one. It will come out in r.t.r. plastic! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 01:34:08 -0400 From: A Samostie Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk passenger sharks Dear John, I'd love to have an A1A-A1A sharknose also... and am still not quite "sold" on the new Roco B-B freight sharks. I don't know why, but those clear plastic numberboards just turn me off. Sure, I could just replace the numberboards... but I'd rather have a realistic unit that is truly "ready to run," like comparable LifeLike Proto 2000 models. But, looking at a photo of the PRR passenger sharks in The Second Diesel Spotter's Guide, the A1A trucks appear to be similar to those on the Alco PA, but I'm not sure if the wheelbase is comparable. (Where the heck would you get a DL109 chassis to cannibalize anyway, the only DL109 models I've seen weren't exactly cheap enough to throw away the shells). When did the last passenger sharks disappear from the PRR roster? Cheers, Alan Samostie ELHS #3178 Beth Caples wrote: > > How close does the wheel base of a DL-109 compare to that of a shark nose > passenger diesel? I have been wanting to kit bash one in HO for years > but no one makes a suitable chassis to use as a starting point! John > Caples > p.s. You know what will happen. As soon as I build one. It will come out > in r.t.r. plastic! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 01:49:03 EST Subject: [PRR] MDC Office of Prototype Distortion --part1_2f.318ceaee.2b2adcdf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/12/02 1:12:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: E bay car > From: > Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:59:23 +0000 > > There is an REA car on E bay that is up today. It is an MDC box in Tuscan > with > Pennsylvania on the left side and Railway Express Agency on the right side. > > Aside from the car issue is this a legitimate paint scheme becasue I don't > recall ever seeing it before. Thanks, N Bell > Another of MDC's jokes in bad taste. I believe this was included with a set that purportedly put various roads' express box (AAR Mech Code BX) markings on their rather generic pre-WW2 steel box. No relation to reality... BTW, Railway Prototype Cyclopedia #6 has a very nice article on BX cars, including several PRR X29 and X42 pix as well as the headend boxes of other roads (ACL, UP, CNW, etc.) Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_2f.318ceaee.2b2adcdf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/12/02 1:12:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: E bay car
From: <ndbprr@att.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:59:23 +0000

There is an REA car on E bay that is up today.  It is an MDC box in Tuscan with
Pennsylvania on the left side and Railway Express Agency on the right side.
Aside from the car issue is this a legitimate paint scheme becasue I don't
recall ever seeing it before.  Thanks, N Bell


Another of MDC's jokes in bad taste.  I believe this was included with a set that purportedly put various roads' express box (AAR Mech Code BX) markings on their rather generic pre-WW2 steel box.  No relation to reality...

BTW, Railway Prototype Cyclopedia #6 has a very nice article on BX cars, including several PRR X29 and X42 pix as well as the headend boxes of other roads (ACL, UP, CNW, etc.)
                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_2f.318ceaee.2b2adcdf_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 01:49:08 EST Subject: [PRR] Fog blind --part1_1ab.d934fe9.2b2adce4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/12/02 1:12:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR T1 Headlight on snout. > From: "Bruce F. Smith" > Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:09:51 -0600 > > >Group, > > > >Sitting here at work with T1 # 5536 on my desktop and just was wondering > >what the 2nd headlight was used for on the T1? Any special purpose? Was it > >used when they were specials? Just wondering... > > > >Sam Vastano > > Sam, > > I've heard it called a "fog light"...if that helps clear things up ! I > know that it was not a standard headlight nor was a gyralight or mars > light. > > Happy Rails > Bruce Sounds good -- you have to experience northern Indiana's fogs to believe them. Running across the Fort Wayne at 80 plus while flying blind took courage. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_1ab.d934fe9.2b2adce4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/12/02 1:12:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR T1 Headlight on snout.
From: "Bruce F. Smith" <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:09:51 -0600

>Group,
>
>Sitting here at work with T1 # 5536 on my desktop and just was wondering
>what the 2nd headlight was used for on the T1? Any special purpose? Was it
>used when they were specials? Just wondering...
>
>Sam Vastano

Sam,

I've heard it called a "fog light"...if that helps clear things up <G>!  I
know that it was not a standard headlight nor was a gyralight or mars light.

Happy Rails
Bruce


Sounds good -- you have to experience northern Indiana's fogs to believe them.  Running across the Fort Wayne at 80 plus while flying blind took courage.

                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_1ab.d934fe9.2b2adce4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 10:11:35 +0100 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: [PRR] Rivarossi passenger cars - new tooling Hello list, looking through the new announcements on Walthers website I found a new edition of the Smoothside Passenger cars. They look as if Walthers had used the principle of theBudd corrugated cars sold under the Walthers brand, and equipped it with new sides, running it under Rivarossi name. This would make for some very nice cars from a technical point of view, with the working diaphragms, interiors, etc. the Walthers Budd cars have. And they will look good for Uncle Pete or other roads. But what with Pennsy? Is there any exact match for PRR with this cars? I own some of the older Rivarossi smoothsides, equipped with new couplers etc., and I know (and also laerned from list members some time ago), that several of these cars were modeled to PRR prototypes. However, the new series is something completely different, with the Budd cars as the basic design. I wonder how those new cars now will fit for a Pennsy Streamliner. By now, only the 44-seat-coach has been announced, however, other cars might follow (hopefully no PRR-domecar as in the old 1930s Era series; the full set has already been announced for UP). The pic can be found: http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/635-6669 Why are there always newer, better things to buy? My budget does not keep up with that pace! Burkhard Sanner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk passenger sharks Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:09:28 -0500 Alan wrote: (Where the heck would you get a DL109 chassis to cannibalize anyway, the only DL109 models I've seen weren't exactly cheap enough to throw away the shells). Alan, Life-Like P1000 is coming out with a DL109. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] MP-54's Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 13:51:08 +0000 Were the MP-54's limited to the PRR or did the Long Island have them also? What was the disposition of them? Were they all scrapped or were some sold to other railroads near the end? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk passenger sharks Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:10:25 -0600 For HO, the P100 Dl-109s are out on the street. -----Original Message----- From: A Samostie [mailto:quahog@sprint.ca] Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 11:34 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk passenger sharks Dear John, I'd love to have an A1A-A1A sharknose also... and am still not quite "sold" on the new Roco B-B freight sharks. I don't know why, but those clear plastic numberboards just turn me off. Sure, I could just replace the numberboards... but I'd rather have a realistic unit that is truly "ready to run," like comparable LifeLike Proto 2000 models. But, looking at a photo of the PRR passenger sharks in The Second Diesel Spotter's Guide, the A1A trucks appear to be similar to those on the Alco PA, but I'm not sure if the wheelbase is comparable. (Where the heck would you get a DL109 chassis to cannibalize anyway, the only DL109 models I've seen weren't exactly cheap enough to throw away the shells). When did the last passenger sharks disappear from the PRR roster? Cheers, Alan Samostie ELHS #3178 Beth Caples wrote: > > How close does the wheel base of a DL-109 compare to that of a shark nose > passenger diesel? I have been wanting to kit bash one in HO for years > but no one makes a suitable chassis to use as a starting point! John > Caples > p.s. You know what will happen. As soon as I build one. It will come out > in r.t.r. plastic! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] MP-54's Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:19:39 -0500 Norm, The LIRR had MP-54's including double-deckers. They had 3rd rail shoes and no pantographs Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:41:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk passenger sharks In a message dated 12/13/02 7:15:29 AM Central Standard Time, cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: << Life-Like P1000 is coming out with a DL109. >> Correction. Has come out. I have my GM&O (www.fleetofmodernism.com/dl109.jpg). List $75.00. No DCC socket but it does have an isolated motor. As usual it has numbered solder pads on the circuit board to attach decoder leads, but NO F---- instructions or a wiring diagram except a note on the PC board where to cut the traces for DCC operation. Apparently, no one at the company here or in China can write or the low price of P1K precludes the cost of paper. Looks to be the same PC board as the Erie-built--haven't run it all out yet so don't know if it has the Erie-builts jackrabbit mechanism. Instructions for installing a decoder in the Erie-built in the old MR review had an error in the numbering of the connections. The unit also has a gaping hole where the pilot should be to accomodate a coupler for the 18 inch radius trainset crowd. This loco may hands-down be the heaviest HO diesel yet produced---it pegs my scale, so I can't tell exactly how heavy. Since the weight conforms to the shape of the DL109 nose, you would have to do a heavy duty cutting or milling job to keep it to fit a BP20 shell. Excuse the following OT digression for this list. I am not a GM&O rivet counter so don't know if it is accurate for their specific loco. I would expect they would model the New Haven version most accurately as they purchased most of them, but that is a guess. The Erie-built more closely followed the PRR version, to the chagrin of the Milwaukee modelers around here. That said, you may think the DL109 is either the ugliest loco ever devised or it has a morbidly fascinating appeal to you---I fall in the latter category. In the GM&O colors it is a beautiful model. It is also encouraging because, though they served more railroads, the Erie-built and DL-109 production offer hope that a BP20 (mandatory PRR content) could be done someday. Allowing for parallex error, I measure the center to center wheelbase of the model as 42 feet 10 inches. My understanding is that the trucks on the Erie-built were the PA trucks and not quite accurate, though passable. The same may apply with the DL109 for use under a BP20. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:43:40 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi passenger cars - new tooling Burkhard Sanner wrote: (in part) > wonder how those > new cars now will fit for a Pennsy Streamliner. > By now, only the 44-seat-coach has been > announced, however, other cars might > follow (hopefully no PRR-domecar as in > the old 1930s Era series; the full set has > already been announced for UP). The pic > can be found: > http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/635-6669 > > Why are there always newer, better things to > buy? My budget does not keep up with that pace! > > Burkhard Sanner > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Well you can save your money on this one. From the photo it is clear that the 44 seat coach looks no more like a PRR P85b 44 seat coach than the dome cars did! It appears to be the UP car (in PRR paint). I'm still waiting for DesPlaines Hobbies to release the ex-Middle Division cars. I saw the pilots at a Springfield show 2 YEARS AGO. They are gorgeous. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] MP-54's Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:54:16 -0500 At least one LI MP-54 made it to Branford for preservation. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 8:51 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] MP-54's Were the MP-54's limited to the PRR or did the Long Island have them also? What was the disposition of them? Were they all scrapped or were some sold to other railroads near the end? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:46:24 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54's The double deckers were MP72 (I think). But the LIRR did have lots of MP54s, both with monitor and arch roofs. Many of the P54s (no motors) were also sold to the B&M. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Chany, Christopher" wrote: > Norm, > > The LIRR had MP-54's including double-deckers. They had 3rd rail shoes and > no pantographs > > Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] MP-54's Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:48:25 -0500 Norm, LIRR had MP54 cars with 3rd rail shoes & no pantographs. PRSL also had MP54 cars with trolley poles (no pantograph) and 3rd rail shoes for Camden to Millville service. All were scrapped in the late 40's early 50's. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 8:51 AM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] MP-54's Were the MP-54's limited to the PRR or did the Long Island have them also? What was the disposition of them? Were they all scrapped or were some sold to other railroads near the end? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. 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This was hardly ready-to-run, but definitely beautiful-to-look at :-) I don't know if they are still available. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== A Samostie wrote: > Dear John, > > I'd love to have an A1A-A1A sharknose also... and am still not quite > "sold" on the new Roco B-B freight sharks. I don't know why, but those > clear plastic numberboards just turn me off. Sure, I could just replace > the numberboards... but I'd rather have a realistic unit that is truly > "ready to run," like comparable LifeLike Proto 2000 models. > > But, looking at a photo of the PRR passenger sharks in The Second Diesel > Spotter's Guide, the A1A trucks appear to be similar to those on the > Alco PA, but I'm not sure if the wheelbase is comparable. (Where the > heck would you get a DL109 chassis to cannibalize anyway, the only DL109 > models I've seen weren't exactly cheap enough to throw away the shells). > > When did the last passenger sharks disappear from the PRR roster? > > Cheers, > Alan Samostie > > ELHS #3178 > > Beth Caples wrote: > > > > How close does the wheel base of a DL-109 compare to that of a shark nose > > passenger diesel? I have been wanting to kit bash one in HO for years > > but no one makes a suitable chassis to use as a starting point! John > > Caples > > p.s. You know what will happen. As soon as I build one. It will come out > > in r.t.r. plastic! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk passenger sharks Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:00:52 +0000 The DL109 is one butt ugly engine in my opinion. Anybody who wants to canibalize one for the running gear and chassis has my thumbs up. I never did understand the fascination with why modelers wanted that one. > Alan wrote: > (Where the heck would you get a DL109 chassis to cannibalize anyway, the > only DL109 > models I've seen weren't exactly cheap enough to throw away the shells). > > Alan, > > Life-Like P1000 is coming out with a DL109. > > > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk passenger sharks Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 09:23:47 -0600 Latest GATS in Wheaton had them available for $50.00. And, they are ugly. But, some people would also consider the Baldwin Centipedes and some of their other "baby face" engines just as ugly. -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 9:01 AM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com; Chany, Christopher Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk passenger sharks The DL109 is one butt ugly engine in my opinion. Anybody who wants to canibalize one for the running gear and chassis has my thumbs up. I never did understand the fascination with why modelers wanted that one. > Alan wrote: > (Where the heck would you get a DL109 chassis to cannibalize anyway, the > only DL109 > models I've seen weren't exactly cheap enough to throw away the shells). > > Alan, > > Life-Like P1000 is coming out with a DL109. > > > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 13:55:32 -0400 From: A Samostie Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54's and PRR electrification Dear Group, As a native of Long Island, I am familiar with the history of the LIRR and the MP54 cars. I don't recall what particular model of MUs were still operating on the Long Beach Branch in the late 60s and early 70s, but I do remember they were ancient. My question is, were PRR's pantograph-equipped MP54s used on all of the ex-PRR lines currently operated by NJT and SEPTA? Or, were locomotive-hauled commuter trains the norm on the Corridor and other lines? Any guesses as to why third rail electrification was not used more widely on the PRR system? Also, when was electrification on the PRSL abandoned? Was the entire Camden - Atlantic City route electrified? I recall reading about a tragic accident in which an electrified train ran off an open drawbridge on this line, electrocuting those inside... seems odd that would result in complete abandonment of electrification, though. Cheers, Alan Samostie ELHS #3178 "Burnley, Charles" wrote: > > Norm, > > LIRR had MP54 cars with 3rd rail shoes & no pantographs. > PRSL also had MP54 cars with trolley poles (no pantograph) > and 3rd rail shoes for Camden to Millville service. All were scrapped > in the late 40's early 50's. > > Buzz > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "monchie" Subject: RE: [PRR] MP-54's and PRR electrification Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 13:43:24 -0500 MP54s were used extensively on the Philly area commuter lines, at least in the 50s and 60s. The first Silverliners appeared in the late 50s/early 60s, but didn't entirely replace the old red cars, some of which lasted into the late 70s Conrail era. I believe the MP54s were also used on the New York-Trenton and New York-Philadelphia locals. However, I think some of the North Jersey Coast Line trains were pulled by GG1's, probably the through trains to Bay Head, since the line was only partially electrified. IIRC they switched the GG1 for a diesel at South Amboy. But I've also seen pictures of MP54s on the electrified portion of the NJCL. - monchie -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of A Samostie Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 12:56 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54's and PRR electrification Dear Group, As a native of Long Island, I am familiar with the history of the LIRR and the MP54 cars. I don't recall what particular model of MUs were still operating on the Long Beach Branch in the late 60s and early 70s, but I do remember they were ancient. My question is, were PRR's pantograph-equipped MP54s used on all of the ex-PRR lines currently operated by NJT and SEPTA? Or, were locomotive-hauled commuter trains the norm on the Corridor and other lines? Any guesses as to why third rail electrification was not used more widely on the PRR system? Also, when was electrification on the PRSL abandoned? Was the entire Camden - Atlantic City route electrified? I recall reading about a tragic accident in which an electrified train ran off an open drawbridge on this line, electrocuting those inside... seems odd that would result in complete abandonment of electrification, though. Cheers, Alan Samostie ELHS #3178 "Burnley, Charles" wrote: > > Norm, > > LIRR had MP54 cars with 3rd rail shoes & no pantographs. > PRSL also had MP54 cars with trolley poles (no pantograph) > and 3rd rail shoes for Camden to Millville service. All were scrapped > in the late 40's early 50's. > > Buzz > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 13:45:35 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Pics from Sunbury, Shamokin From: Jerry Britton I have added to my photo database the pics I took last weekend. They include several shots of the Sunbury passenger station (in snow), the bridges over the Susquehanna River near Northumberland, the remains of the Glen Burn Colliery at Shamokin, and shots of the layout at the Lower Anthracite Model Railroad Club. URL is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/photos/ If you leave the search form blank and click Search, it will show the most recent photos first. Enjoy! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 13:51:01 -0500 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54's and PRR electrification Alan and folks, Glad to see someone bring up the electrification on the PRSL (former West Jersey & Seashore) trackage. Actually, only one of the Pennsy-related Camden-Atlantic City lines was electrified, using third rail with trolley wire in some places in and near Camden. This was the longer route via Newfield, rather than the present line via Hammondton. The electrification was early in the 20th century (1906-?)and is well covered in the book "By Rail to the Boardwalk". There were some tragic accidents early in the life of this service, with one train derailing on a misaligned drawbridge near Atlantic City. A number of passengers drowned in that incident. Through service from Camden to AC was discontinued in the 1930's, though the electric service to Millville continued into the late 1940's (1948/49, I'm not sure which without checking the books). Running alongside the MP54's was a fleet of wooden MU cars of modest size and looking much like interurban cars, mostly coachs but with a few RPO and staight baggage cars, all powered. Someone imported brass versions of these cars years ago and I would dearly love to own some. All were third-rail powered, though they had trolley poles as well on each end. MR published plans for these in the late 1970's and I've been tinkering with scratchbuilding some. The sight of some of these decrepid cars rolling along the single track south of Glassboro would make an appealing layout scene, though very decidedly Back Road as far as Pennsy lines go! Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] MP-54's and PRR electrification Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 14:00:07 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: A Samostie [mailto:quahog@sprint.ca] Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 12:56 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54's and PRR electrification My question is, were PRR's pantograph-equipped MP54s used on all of the ex-PRR lines currently operated by NJT and SEPTA? Or, were locomotive-hauled commuter trains the norm on the Corridor and other lines? After electrification of the lines out of Philly, including the Main Lines, MP54's were used on local runs ( Phila - Paoli, or Phila - Trenton, or Trenton - New York for example) Through runs (Phila - New York) were locomotive hauled passenger car trains. Any guesses as to why third rail electrification was not used more widely on the PRR system? Third Rail territory was energized with 600v D.C. as opposed to 11,000v A.C. for the overhead catenary. The greater efficiency of high voltage A.C. (root-mean-square... whatever) for transmission over long distances was safer for the public and much more economically practical. Also, when was electrification on the PRSL abandoned? Was the entire Camden - Atlantic City route electrified? I recall reading about a tragic accident in which an electrified train ran off an open drawbridge on this line, electrocuting those inside... seems odd that would result in complete abandonment of electrification, though. I'm at work, so I don't have exact dates. The line from Camden to Atlantic City via the Newfield Branch was electrified (3rd rail,with trolley pole use in isolated stretches such as Gloucester City). The line split at Newfield with the other leg going on into Millville. The wreck was at the Atlantic City Drawbridge over Beach Thorofare. The deaths were from drowning, not electrocution. The line from AC to Newfield was de-energized prior to the WJ&S and ACRR merger in 1933 which created the PRSL. This was an economic move, as was the merger, and not a result of the accident. The Millville line was kept electrified for commuter service until the late 1940's. Again, economics was it's demise. Hope this helps, and has a minimum of errors. Buzz C > > Norm, > > LIRR had MP54 cars with 3rd rail shoes & no pantographs. > PRSL also had MP54 cars with trolley poles (no pantograph) > and 3rd rail shoes for Camden to Millville service. All were scrapped > in the late 40's early 50's. > > Buzz > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 14:04:51 -0500 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54's and PRR electrification Folks, another assignment for MP54's were the Baltimore-Washington commuter locals, if I'm recalling correctly. Also, wasn't there a Harrisburg-Lancaster MP commuter run using these cars? I'm not aware of any NY-Philley trains that were strictly MP trains, though it may well be a case that I simply don't know about them, being so used to seeing GG1's used in that service. NY-Trenton brings Philley so close that perhaps some of the real plug runs did have such equipment. Some of the offhour trains were in no hurry, to be sure. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "monchie" Subject: RE: [PRR] MP-54's and PRR electrification Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 14:50:16 -0500 I don't remember the NYC-Philly locals myself, but my dad was a car inspector at Suburban Station and he mentioned them on a few occasions. Apparently some MP54 trains originated at Suburban Station and ran all the way to NYC Penn Station, making most if not all local stops. - monchie -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of BPX29@aol.com Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 2:05 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54's and PRR electrification Folks, another assignment for MP54's were the Baltimore-Washington commuter locals, if I'm recalling correctly. Also, wasn't there a Harrisburg-Lancaster MP commuter run using these cars? I'm not aware of any NY-Philley trains that were strictly MP trains, though it may well be a case that I simply don't know about them, being so used to seeing GG1's used in that service. NY-Trenton brings Philley so close that perhaps some of the real plug runs did have such equipment. Some of the offhour trains were in no hurry, to be sure. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:11:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Budd-Pioneer 3 MP85 High Speed Test Hello PRR list, In 1966 & 67, the Department of Transportation tested a four car set of MP85s of the PRR mainline from NYC to Washington DC. My question is did the MP85s belong to the D.O.T. or PRR? And what happen to the cars once the test were over? If the MP85s went to the PRR when the test were complete, what were the munbers of the cars? Any help appreciated. Thanks... Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:13:41 EST Subject: [PRR] RE: DL-109 and Passenger Sharks compared --part1_112.1bceaf5f.2b2b9975_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From MR Cyclopedia Vol 2 Diesels DL-109 Shark Truck Wheelbase 15'4" note 15'6" Truck centers 46' 3.5" 43'0" EngineWheelbase 58' 6" 61' 9.5" Wheels 40" 42" Length 74'6.5" 80'0" Note: truck wheelbase on the plan is inconsistent shown as 15'4" and 15'6" Ray Burghart SPF for over 50 years --part1_112.1bceaf5f.2b2b9975_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From MR Cyclopedia Vol 2 Diesels
                                        DL-109                       Shark

Truck Wheelbase                15'4"  note                          15'6"

Truck centers                      46' 3.5"                        43'0"

EngineWheelbase                58' 6"                         61' 9.5"   

Wheels                                    40"                               42"

Length                                 74'6.5"                              80'0"

Note: truck wheelbase on the plan is inconsistent shown as 15'4" and 15'6"

Ray Burghart
SPF for over 50 years --part1_112.1bceaf5f.2b2b9975_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Budd-Pioneer 3 MP85 High Speed Test Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:49:56 -0500 The car remained in service. The last time the PRRT&HS meeting was in Altoona the cars were headed west to be destroyed at the DOT testing facility in a study on front end collisions. One of the cars derailed at the brickyard. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: zootowerprr@webtv.net [mailto:zootowerprr@webtv.net] Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 3:12 PM To: PRRCatenaryElectrics@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Budd-Pioneer 3 MP85 High Speed Test Hello PRR list, In 1966 & 67, the Department of Transportation tested a four car set of MP85s of the PRR mainline from NYC to Washington DC. My question is did the MP85s belong to the D.O.T. or PRR? And what happen to the cars once the test were over? If the MP85s went to the PRR when the test were complete, what were the munbers of the cars? Any help appreciated. Thanks... Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Classic Trains Mag Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:56:00 -0500 Listers, Has anyone purchased the Classic Trains special mag. "DREAM TRAINS" I was wondering how good the article on The Congressional was? Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Miracle Castings Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 20:58:50 +0000 I know there has been disussion about MC but I am finally prepared to bite the bullet on BP20's and I can't get to their web page. Are they our of business at this point? Thanks, NB ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54's and PRR electrification Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:05:30 -0500 List, Re; thw WJ&S-PRSL electrification in southern New Jersey, IIRC it was terminated because the State of New Jersey banned the use of wooden passenger cars sometime around 1948 and PRSL didn't have enough steel MP54's to continue the service. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "monchie" To: ; Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 2:50 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] MP-54's and PRR electrification > I don't remember the NYC-Philly locals myself, but my dad was a car > inspector at Suburban Station and he mentioned them on a few occasions. > Apparently some MP54 trains originated at Suburban Station and ran all > the way to NYC Penn Station, making most if not all local stops. > > - monchie > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of > BPX29@aol.com > Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 2:05 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54's and PRR electrification > > Folks, > another assignment for MP54's were the Baltimore-Washington commuter > locals, if I'm recalling correctly. Also, wasn't there a > Harrisburg-Lancaster MP commuter run using these cars? > I'm not aware of any NY-Philley trains that were strictly MP trains, > though it may well be a case that I simply don't know about them, being > so used to seeing GG1's used in that service. NY-Trenton brings Philley > so close that perhaps some of the real plug runs did have such > equipment. Some of the offhour trains were in no hurry, to be sure. > Regards, > Barry Peltier > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Miracle Castings Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:22:15 -0500 We have not been able to get ANY of their products for over a year. That said, I believe that A.B. Charles & Son in Pittsburgh, PA may still have them in stock. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com featuring over 10,000 in stock items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 Voice 732-565-1005 FAX ---------- Original Message ----------- From: ndbprr@att.net To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk) Sent: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 20:58:50 +0000 Subject: [PRR] Miracle Castings > I know there has been disussion about MC but I am finally prepared > to bite the bullet on BP20's and I can't get to their web page. Are > they our of business at this point? Thanks, NB > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------- End of Original Message ------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Foley, Jim" Subject: [PRR] B&P-PB&W FRT OPERATIONS BETWEEN 1895-1905 Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:28:05 -0500 This msg has been posted previously on the PRR Tech & Hist Society List and responded to by Chris Baer. Any contribution by the PRR-Talk List members will be greatly appreciated. -------------------------------------------------------------- INFO NEEDED ON B&P-PB&W FRT OPERATIONS BETWEEN 1895-1905 OVERVIEW PRECEDING QUESTIONS Looking for information on Baltimore & Potomac-PB&W freight operations between Balto Bayview and Washington Yard from between 1895 and 1905 just prior to the opening of Potomac Yard. After Pot Yd was opened in 1906, all operations for all roads changed dramatically, and we have a fairly good amount of (but not nearly all) documentation from that time period on those initial operations. We have not had access to complete B&P or PB&W annual reports at this time, but supported by ACL, SAL, RF&P and WS annual reports and other RF&P-Pot Yd original company materials and sources, we do know that around 1900-1905 PRR did make classifications for southbound through freight cars for the Washington Southern-RF&P connections at Richmond at: Greenville and Harcimus Cove (from float connections), Meadows, Waverly, Edge Moor, and Bayview for MD5, MD13, MD11, MD7, MD3 and several daily sections of these and other symbol trains and the B4, B6, etc trains from Enola. In turn the RF&P-WS generally moved through northbound connecting merchandise (mdse) and perishable (pble) and stock cars from the ACL and SAL at Richmond to Bennings Relay Yard using qualified RF&P-WS crews (we do know for a fact by crew operating agreements and rates of pay books in our possession, they actually moved the trains (after 1901) from Richmond (Acca, Boulton, Clopton and Hermitage) to and from Benning's Relay Yard- not Washington (Jersey) Yard). The northbound trains were generally blocked solid from Acca (either mdse or pble or both) for the North Jersey Terminals area, Edge Moor, Bayview or Enola. Stock on short time and re-icers went to either Bayview, Enola or Edge Moor depending on icing instructions or stock rest expiration time. The NB trains were Advance MD4, BP4, MD16, MD4, BP2, MD18, MD6, MD12 and the necessary daily sections of these trains that RF&P-WS relayed to the PRR. THE QUESTIONS ARE: 1. What was the standard type of PRR Sys frt service eng used in 1905 over the B&P between Balto Bayview (exclusive of the B&P Tunnel and Winans helpers); were they often double or tripple headed over the B&P in both directions?? Were engs still assigned to individual enginemen; if so when was the practice stopped ?? 2. What were their 1905 tonnage ratings north and south over the B&P between Fulton and Washington Yard (not Bennings) 3. Are the actual PRR frt train numbers or symbols for that time period known; we know that the above symbol trains were operating from Pot Yd in 1911; are any PRR schedule and blocking books available (1904-05) for the time period prior to Pot Yd opening in 1906 ?? How was the PRR Freight Train Symbol System devised and organized ??. 4. Did through PRR freight trains operate from Edge Moor or the North Jersey Terminals to/from Benning's Relay Yard direct, or did all crews change at Edge Moor. Did through crews operate from Enola to Bennings or only to Bayview. We would greatly appreciate any info or additional comments or insight on the above. Thanks Jim Foley CSX Clearance Bureau Jax Formerly RF&P Pot Yd (1966-1992) jim_foley@csx.com Bill Griffin Jr Director Personnel and Labor Relations RF&P and CSX Retired ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk passenger sharks Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 17:00:30 -0500 Norm Bell wrote: The DL109 is one butt ugly engine in my opinion. Anybody who wants to cannibalize one for the running gear and chassis has my thumbs up. I never did understand the fascination with why modelers wanted that one. Hey, but if you model Englewood (mandatory Pennsy content), you'll need not only RI DL109's, but RI 621, "Christine," Rock Island's (in)famous EMD re-engined DL109! Another part of one of the greatest railroad shows on earth! ndbprr@att.net Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: [PRR] Re: Exchange Place Previous Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 18:24:22 -0500 Group: A few weeks someone on this list was making inquiries about Exchange Place. I lost my emails and address book when my computer went south. Would the person making those inquiries please contact me via this list. I, also, am trying to model Exchange Place. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 18:44:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] Budd-Pioneer 3 MP85 High Speed Test Thanks Chris............... Did you happen to catch a car number? I remember the derailment at the Brickyard involving the Silverliners but I didn't know those were the original DOT test cars. Now that I think about it, a Phila Chapter PRRT&HS member has that derailment on tape as it happened. I hope he comes to the next meeting! Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Exchange Place Previous Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 18:52:45 -0500 Hi Bob: That was part of the lost info. I have a home office and therefore I do not have to worry about a boss wondering what the @#$%@$#^ I am doing on the computer. On the other hand, with my work load, I am the only one available to get the work done. And of course work comes first. That is how I pay for my toys. Back to the point, I did have some info to share about Exchange Place, but not the time to respond. I wish you and Claus would have responded to the list and not off line. There was someone, possibly Claus, who specifically wrote about modeling Exchange Place. In addition, I would like to contact that person as well. I have some photocopies from the Jersey Journal newspaper, part of a track plan courtesy of Chris Baer. Some info from a visit to the Hagley Museum and personal memories, as I was born and raised in Jersey City. I just received an aerial photo from the Fairchild Aerial Photo collection at UCLA. There was a William Brennen who supplied some photos to one of the Morning Star Books. I have made some cursory efforts to contact him to see if he has any other photos, possibly for sale. Any help along the way would be appreciated. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 6:36 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Exchange Place Previous > Hi Weldon, > > Not sure if this is what you were referring to, but I had posted an > inquiry about how the trains operating out of Exchange Place were handled > in later years, for example, how the Broker from Exchange Place to Bay > Head operated through and west of Journal Square. Subsequently, Claus > Schlund and I had some off-line correspondence that was most helpful. > > Is this what you were referring to? > > Regards, > > John Bobsin > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] Budd-Pioneer 3 MP85 High Speed Test Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 01:02:07 +0000 The High Speed test cars were owned by the US DOT, not the PRR. The ones destroyed in Colorado were no more than 4 of the 6 original Pioneer III cars, obtained from SEPTA. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] DOT Cars: Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 20:19:51 -0500 Found additional photos and information in: Paul Carleton's "Under Pennsy Wires" page 266 William Volkmer's "Pennsy Electric Years" pages 114 & 115 Interesting photo in Carleton's book - showing a front end treatment on T1. The caption says that they did not have seats installed and lost the front end treatment by mid 1968 Volkmer's book has a good overview of the project, the also point out that the cars also tested on the RDG. Even better news (for me) proof that all of the original 50 Metroliners started life with keystones. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com.trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 20:17:02 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Passenger sharks From: Beth Caples Thank's to all who took their time to answer my Question! Well it sounds like the DL109 is a good starting point. Or should I say the best alternative so far. When the NMRA National Convention was in St. Louis a few years back. I asked the people at Life like if they would consider a Pass. shark. I received a flat NO! Only PRR had them. Not enough people but PRR fans would buy them. Can't recoup the cost! My argument is this. It is one of the most beautiful pass. diesels ever made. Other people will buy them just for that. How many non PRR fans bought a K-4!!!! Also to answer an earlier question. 1964-65 was the last year for the pass. sharks. John Caples p.s. Yes the DL109 is an ugly beast. That is probably it's selling point. It looks brutal and looks powerful. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 23:02:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] DOT Cars: Thanks Wayne.......... I forgot about the photos in "Pennsy Electric Years". Great color shot of MP85 "T-1" without the nose cone. When you look at photos of the DOT test cars and the PRR Metroliner cars, the nose cones are almost identical. In "Pennsy Electric Years", does the Metroliner cars sit lower than the DOT MP85 cars? Maybe it's the way it looks in the photos. I haven't rode a MP85 in years. Went to Harrisburg and the ride was not bad. And the air conditioning worked! Maybe if the rails were welded, it would have been a better ride. We bounced around a bit but I managed to get some sleep. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:33:38 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR on foreign lines --part1_17e.1380239f.2b2c1cb2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Check out Steve Sandifer's web page under Foreign Passenger Cars on the AT& SF. http://www.trainweb.org/jssand/Foreign/ForeignCars.htm There are several PRR passenger cars and headend cars shown with brief references to the trains, places and times they appeared. Great R50B shots. Yes, the cars are clean enough to see all of the lettering details. Evan Leisey --part1_17e.1380239f.2b2c1cb2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Check out Steve Sandifer's web page under Foreign Passenger Cars on the AT&SF.

   http://www.trainweb.org/jssand/Foreign/ForeignCars.htm

   There are several PRR passenger cars and headend cars shown with brief references to the trains, places and times they appeared. Great R50B shots.  Yes, the cars are clean enough to see all of the lettering details.

Evan Leisey
 --part1_17e.1380239f.2b2c1cb2_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] DOT Cars: Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 00:39:50 -0500 Dave: Just a guess - but deck height would have to be the same for both vehicles. The deck level opened at "high level platform" height. The difference in looks could be the inside frame trucks on the MP85s and the DOT cars vs the outside frame trucks on the Metroliners. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com.trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone -----Original Message----- From: zootowerprr@webtv.net [mailto:zootowerprr@webtv.net] Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 11:03 PM To: Wayne S. Betty; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRRCatenaryElectrics@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [PRR] DOT Cars: Thanks Wayne.......... I forgot about the photos in "Pennsy Electric Years". Great color shot of MP85 "T-1" without the nose cone. When you look at photos of the DOT test cars and the PRR Metroliner cars, the nose cones are almost identical. In "Pennsy Electric Years", does the Metroliner cars sit lower than the DOT MP85 cars? Maybe it's the way it looks in the photos. I haven't rode a MP85 in years. Went to Harrisburg and the ride was not bad. And the air conditioning worked! Maybe if the rails were welded, it would have been a better ride. We bounced around a bit but I managed to get some sleep. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 13:12:49 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Train Consists & Cars --part1_19b.d83a819.2b2ccea1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I placed a pre-pub order for the book referenced above from TLC Publishing, Inc. The reply I got to my order was "due Fall" with a note that asked me to be patient as things sometimes get delayed. So, has anybody heard any news about the release of this book? Thanks in advance, Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 --part1_19b.d83a819.2b2ccea1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I placed a pre-pub order for the book referenced above from TLC Publishing, Inc.  The reply I got to my order was "due Fall" with a note that asked me to be patient as things sometimes get delayed.  So, has anybody heard any news about the release of this book?

Thanks in advance,
Chris Baker
PRRT&HS #1918 --part1_19b.d83a819.2b2ccea1_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Exchange Place Previous Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 20:17:11 +0000 I've found that a Terraserver picture can help establish long gone right of ways and track locations in some cases. It might be worth seeing if they have a satelite view of the area and then zoom in. > Hi Bob: That was part of the lost info. I have a home office and > therefore I do not have to worry about a boss wondering what the @#$%@$#^ I > am doing on the computer. On the other hand, with my work load, I am the > only one available to get the work done. And of course work comes first. > That is how I pay for my toys. > > Back to the point, I did have some info to share about Exchange Place, but > not the time to respond. I wish you and Claus would have responded to the > list and not off line. > > There was someone, possibly Claus, who specifically wrote about modeling > Exchange Place. In addition, I would like to contact that person as well. > > I have some photocopies from the Jersey Journal newspaper, part of a track > plan courtesy of Chris Baer. Some info from a visit to the Hagley Museum > and personal memories, as I was born and raised in Jersey City. > > I just received an aerial photo from the Fairchild Aerial Photo collection > at UCLA. > > There was a William Brennen who supplied some photos to one of the Morning > Star Books. I have made some cursory efforts to contact him to see if he > has any other photos, possibly for sale. > > Any help along the way would be appreciated. > > All the best to you and yours Weldon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 6:36 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Exchange Place Previous > > > > Hi Weldon, > > > > Not sure if this is what you were referring to, but I had posted an > > inquiry about how the trains operating out of Exchange Place were handled > > in later years, for example, how the Broker from Exchange Place to Bay > > Head operated through and west of Journal Square. Subsequently, Claus > > Schlund and I had some off-line correspondence that was most helpful. > > > > Is this what you were referring to? > > > > Regards, > > > > John Bobsin > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 16:50:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Passenger Train Consists & Cars From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3122729405_100026_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit on 12/14/02 1:12 PM, Chrisandbelton2@aol.com at Chrisandbelton2@aol.com wrote: I placed a pre-pub order for the book referenced above from TLC Publishing, Inc. The reply I got to my order was "due Fall" with a note that asked me to be patient as things sometimes get delayed. So, has anybody heard any news about the release of this book? I've heard Spring. (dealer hat on) My regular book distributor told me he won't work with the publisher due to constant delays and problems in getting product. (/dealer hat off) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ --MS_Mac_OE_3122729405_100026_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] PRR Passenger Train Consists & Cars on 12/14/02 1:12 PM, Chrisandbelton2@aol.com at Chrisandbelton2@aol.com wro= te:

I placed a pre-pub order for = the book referenced above from TLC Publishing, Inc.  The reply I got to= my order was "due Fall" with a note that asked me to be patient a= s things sometimes get delayed.  So, has anybody heard any news about t= he release of this book?


I've heard Spring.

(dealer hat on)
My regular book distributor told me he won't work with the publisher due to= constant delays and problems in getting product.
(/dealer hat off)
------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region
Modeling the PRR in September 1954
 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/

--MS_Mac_OE_3122729405_100026_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 14:27:39 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Passenger Train Consists & Cars From: "Douglas Nelson" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3122720859_61026_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I called TLC a few days ago and they said that the book has been delayed, but should be ready in February. Doug. ---------- From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Train Consists & Cars Date: Sat, Dec 14, 2002, 10:12 AM I placed a pre-pub order for the book referenced above from TLC Publishing, Inc. The reply I got to my order was "due Fall" with a note that asked me to be patient as things sometimes get delayed. So, has anybody heard any news about the release of this book? Thanks in advance, Chris Baker PRRT&HS #1918 --MS_Mac_OE_3122720859_61026_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] PRR Passenger Train Consists & Cars I called TLC a few days ago and they said that the book has been delayed, b= ut should be ready in February.

Doug.

----------
From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Train Consists & Cars
Date: Sat, Dec 14, 2002, 10:12 AM


I placed a pre-pub order for = the book referenced above from TLC Publishing, Inc.  The reply I got to= my order was "due Fall" with a note that asked me to be patient a= s things sometimes get delayed.  So, has anybody heard any news about t= he release of this book?

Thanks in advance,
Chris Baker
PRRT&HS #1918
--MS_Mac_OE_3122720859_61026_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] (PRR) Bowser K4 with Disk Drivers progress Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 17:33:34 -0500 Group, Here is a link to the scan of the K4 I am building with Disk Drivers. Finally have a bit of time to work on it. Christmas Break and Economics Paper done! http://groups.msn.com/Samstoys/samstrainphotos.msnw?Page=Last Sam Vastano _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 17:57:49 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Passenger Train Consists & Cars In a message dated 12/14/02 3:52:09 PM Central Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << My regular book distributor told me he won't work with the publisher due to constant delays and problems in getting product. >> I wonder how long the SP guys had to wait for their book. Reason I ask is that the SP consist book has been in the regular book distribution channels, i.e. Border's,on the shelf, easy to get. So, however long the wait, once the book was released, it seemed to be readily and steadily available. Unless the publisher gave Border's preference. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Passenger Train Consists & Cars Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 20:09:08 -0500 Bob Zoeller wrote: I wonder how long the SP guys had to wait for their book. Reason I ask is that the SP consist book has been in the regular book distribution channels, i.e. Border's,on the shelf, easy to get. So, however long the wait, once the book was released, it seemed to be readily and steadily available. Unless the publisher gave Border's preference. I reserved a copy of the SP book before publication - it was delayed about six weeks. The publisher did send a heads-up that the book would be late. Border's does seem to carry quite a few of this publisher's books. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 18:26:43 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] South Fork Branch, Berwind-White, long I recently borrowed a copy of "The History of Berwind", published privately by the company in 1993. There are a couple of paragraphs on pages 43-44 which bear on the South Fork Branch. After talking about Berwind-White's acquisition of tens of thousands of acres of coal rights, the book says: "As production started in these new fields, there was no industry-wide perception that this area had vast enormous stores of mineral wealth... Edward [Berwind] tried to convince the railroad directors to build a branch line of only ten miles to connect his new mines with its main tracks, an act which wouild ensure quick delivery of Eureka coal to the coast. "'The Railway World' [no issue cited] reported Edward's lack of success with the railroad officers and his solution to his shipping problems: [here begins quote from The Railway World] "With all the progress that Mr. Berwind has made in building up the coal trade with the steamships coming into New York harbor and with all the possibilities for a greater development of this trade, the Pennsylvania officiers could not see that it would be profitable for the railroad company to build the connecting line. "So sure was Mr. Berwind that he was right, that he determined to have th erailroad built at his own expense. He supplied $300,000 to build the road and advanced $173,000 to get it into operation. The Pennsylvania Railroad supervised the construction and agreed to acquire the stock by paying for it out of the earnings derived on the tonnage from the mined reached by the road. Ten cents per ton of the earnings was applied in payment of the stock and thus the Pennsylvania Railroad acquired every share of the stock of the branch line built to Scalp Level, paying therefore entirely out of the roads earnings from the coal profits." If you're interested, the Penn State library has a copy of "The History of Berwind". The book is devoted more to the Berwind family than to the mining company. I hesitate to say "fluff", but I am very glad I was able to borrow it, rather than buy it. A couple other things from the book: Some time ago, based on data from the old CT1000's, I said "there were some low-numbered Eureka collieries in the Clearfield/Moshannon district". According to the book, Eureka #1 was at Houtzdale. Furhter, ads reproduced in the book tout the Celebrated Clearfield Coal. When BWCMCo was incorporated, Jan. 22, 1886, the corporation acquired Eureka #2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7; [note that #1 is apparently gone] Excelsior #1, 2, 3; Ocean #1, 2, 3; Atlantic #1, 2, Pacific #1, 2, 3; Goss Run, Mapleton, Cataract, and Karthaus. It doesn't say where those collieries were located. All had been operated by Berwind, White and Company, a partnership. I don't think there was a Central Clearing House for Colliery Names, hence such names may not be unique. There were a couple Atlantic and Ocean Collieries in Westmoreland County. The former were in Derry Township, served by a branch from Derry. The latter were southwest of Youngwood, along the Yukon Branch, if I recall correctly. The 1923 CT1000 calls them "Ocean Colliery #whatever (B-W C. M. Co.) Perhaps the coal mined there did not fit the specs of Eureka Coal. There are some photos of Eureka #22, and 29, both said to be in Clearfield County. The first BWCMCo colliery in the the Windber area was #30, so I suspect that 1 through 29 were all in Clearfield and maybe Jefferson Counties. One last gasp: Berwind-White reorganized as Berwind Corporation and got out of the mining business. Among other things, they lease coal property, and on a page devoted to that, there is a photo of a mine said to be working coal under such a lease. I can't prove it, and the book is no help, but I'd swear it was the Quecreek mine of recent fame. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 21:28:02 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] South Fork Branch, Berwind-White, long From: "Douglas Nelson" When visiting the area, the coal mining heritage museum in Windber is worth a visit. It is located in the Berwind-White office building and the former PRR passenger station is nearby. Doug Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 04:38:26 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Nice work on Sam's K4s Sam, list, The picture is really nice; it looks like some very good work on your part to create the disc drivers. Which K4s/K4sa are you modeling? I saw the front end throttle box by the stack and immediately began thinking of K4sa 612 (one of my favorites). Doug --- Sam Vastano wrote, in part: > > > Here is a link to the scan of the K4 I am building > with Disk Drivers. > > > http://groups.msn.com/Samstoys/samstrainphotos.msnw?Page=Last > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 07:44:05 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Passenger Train Consists & Cars I have ordered books directly from them and find them to be responsive and honest. TLC is owned by Tom Dixon (C&O Historical Society) who has lots of other irons in fires. He will tell you when a project is delayed. He doesn't do the actual printing so he's at the mercy of authors, editors and printers ... Jim McDaniel, collecting books in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] Re: Nice work on Sam's K4s Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 07:45:12 -0500 Doug & List, I am modeling K4 5494. I wish I had a digital camera so I could get better photos. The photo you see is with my flat bed scanner with a towel over the model. I put a helix humper in it Wow what a difference!. Front end throttel is kinda crude but I am no expert. Thanks Sam Vastano >From: Doug Kisala >To: Sam Vastano , PRR talk >Subject: Nice work on Sam's K4s >Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 04:38:26 -0800 (PST) > >Sam, list, > >The picture is really nice; it looks like some very >good work on your part to create the disc drivers. > >Which K4s/K4sa are you modeling? I saw the front end >throttle box by the stack and immediately began >thinking of K4sa 612 (one of my favorites). > >Doug > > >--- Sam Vastano wrote, in part: > > > > > Here is a link to the scan of the K4 I am building > > with Disk Drivers. > > > > > >http://groups.msn.com/Samstoys/samstrainphotos.msnw?Page=Last > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. >http://mailplus.yahoo.com _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 09:27:31 -0500 Subject: [PRR] FOR SALE: "The Pennsylvania Railroad in 1954" CD-ROM Now From: Jerry Britton Pursuant to list rules of For Sale posts on 1st & 15th of month... After several long years in production, it's finally here: "The Pennsylvania Railroad in 1954" from Desktop Solutions. A cd-rom collection of sixty vintage PRR documents from the transition era year in Adobe Acrobat PDF format. Included are the Book of Rules, Arranged Freight Schedule, Official Railway Equipment Register, Makeup of Trains, Passenger Equipment Roster, Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment, Official Guide to the Railways, all 19 divisional Employee Timetables, dozens of Public Timetables, and still more! The disc is in ISO-9660 format, which is usable by Windows, Macintosh, UNIX, and many other platforms. Requires Adobe Acrobat Reader, which is a free download. A "must have" for every modeler/historian of the 1950's! Price $100. http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ms_new.html You can not only order via the above URL, but also get a listing of all 60 documents contained on the disk. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Laird" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Passenger Train Consists & Cars Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 09:39:14 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C2A41D.D4B16E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris Baker wrote, at 12:12 PM on December 14, 2002: I placed a pre-pub order for the book referenced above from TLC = Publishing, Inc. The reply I got to my order was "due Fall" with a note = that asked me to be patient as things sometimes get delayed. So, has = anybody heard any news about the release of this book? Chris and list: Yesterday I received the following notice by mail from Tom Dixon, TLC = Publishing "Thanks for your Order! Attached is a receipt and data on when each of the backordered books is = expected to be released. I apologise for tardiness in acknowledging your order and for the wait = on some of the books, which are extended beyond the publication dates = originally advertised. Thanks very much for your business and kind patience. I appreciate it! Sincerely, (signed) Tom Dixon TLC Publishing" Note: attached was a list of 9 railraoad books, including the one I had = ordered (PRR Psgr Train Consists & Cars 1952 - Vol. 1 - E-W Trains), = with an indicated due date of March. The other books listed indicated due dates from Jan. through Apr. Bill Laird Canyon Lake, Texas ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C2A41D.D4B16E80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris Baker wrote, at 12:12 PM on December 14,=20 2002:
 
I placed a pre-pub order for the book referenced = above from=20 TLC Publishing, Inc.  The reply I got to my order was "due Fall" = with a=20 note that asked me to be patient as things sometimes get delayed.  = So, has=20 anybody heard any news about the release of this book?

Chris and=20 list:
 
Yesterday I received the following notice by mail = from Tom=20 Dixon, TLC Publishing
 
"Thanks for your Order!
 
Attached is a receipt and data on when each of the = backordered=20 books is expected to be released.
 
I apologise for tardiness in acknowledging your = order and for=20 the wait on some of the books, which are extended beyond the publication = dates=20 originally advertised.
 
Thanks very much for your business and kind = patience.  I=20 appreciate it!
 
Sincerely,
(signed)
Tom Dixon
 TLC Publishing"
 
Note: attached was a list of 9 railraoad books, = including the=20 one I had ordered (PRR Psgr Train Consists & Cars 1952 - Vol. 1 - = E-W=20 Trains), with an indicated due date of March.
The other books listed indicated due dates from Jan. = through=20 Apr.
 
Bill Laird
Canyon Lake, Texas
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C2A41D.D4B16E80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 12:26:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] InterMountain PRR B60s (RTR) There was some buzz on the PC List and the Atlas Forum about InterMountain releasing a painted and ready to run (HO) B60. Did anyone hear anything about this? Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 12:52:48 -0500 From: Mark Kerlick Subject: [PRR] For sale Last if anyone is interested http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=484&item=1924537534&rd=1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] InterMountain PRR B60s (RTR) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 13:15:23 -0500 Dave Hopson wrote: There was some buzz on the PC List and the Atlas Forum about InterMountain releasing a painted and ready to run (HO) B60. Did anyone hear anything about this? Not yet, but it doesn't surprise me. Intermountain has allied with Tichy and Bethlehem Car Works to have their kits assembled in China and marketed RTR. Bethelehem already has assembled versions of their Reading Company coaches and combines in RDG and B&M. The assembled B60s should sell well, but not as well as they should because the marketplace at large doesn't know how wide ranging these cars were. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] InterMountain PRR B60s (RTR) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 13:19:24 -0500 Ben Hom wrote: Intermountain has allied with Tichy and Bethlehem Car Works to have their kits assembled in China and marketed RTR. BTW, add A-Line's intermodal cars and Des Plaines Valley's Centralia Car Shops caboose kits to the list. http://www.intermountain-railway.com/distrib.html Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 15:32:26 EST Subject: [PRR] HO Buildings & Scenery for sale --part1_d3.168915ad.2b2e40da_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All building kits are HO. The scenery is more or less universal. Offers will be handled on the basis of email date and time. First come first served. 95% of the items are still shrink wrapped, all are new in the box. All serious offers will be considered. I have not changed the prices, but any and all reasonable offers will be considered. Shipping is the responsibility of the purchaser. Money orders will ship upon receipt. Orders paid for be check will be held til check clears. For more details or any items of interest please contact me at: albertsr@attbi.com My AOL email box is a black hole with more than 900 message most of the time. Manufacturer Kit No. Price Woodland Senics Tommy's Treehouse M107 7.50 Ernie's Fruit Stand M109 7.00 Tombstones D201 4.50 Micro Engineering Groger's Grocery 70-604 9.50 Model Power Farm House #433 15.00 Grandma's House #487 15.00 Con Cor Ma's Place #9051 10.70 California Model Co Interlocking Tower & Shed #61 11.75 DMK Fuel Oil Distributorship KH102 6.00 Walthers Don's Shoe Store 933-3000 11.00 Farmers Co-op Elevator 933-3036 23.00 Interstate Fuel & Oil 933-3006 23.50 Pikestuff Tool & Handcar Shed #0006 2.50 Design Preservation *Skip's Chicken & Ribs #105 8.00 Carol's Corner Cafe' #113 9.00 Carr's Parts #116 10.00 Seymour Building #121 9.00 *Front St Bldg #120 9.00 Roberts Dry Goods #102 8.00 *Kelly's Saloon #101 8.00 *Other Corner Cafe #115 9.00 Freight Depot #107 9.00 Shultz's Garage #201 8.00 Walker Bldg #204 9.00 *Laube's Linen Mill #106 9.00 C Smith Packing #203 9.00 City Cab Co #112 9.00 Cuttings Scissors Co #103 9.00 B Moore Catalog Showroom #104 9.00 --part1_d3.168915ad.2b2e40da_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
All building kits are HO. The scenery is more or less universal. Offers will be handled on the basis of email date and time. First come first served. 95% of the items are still shrink wrapped, all are new in the box. All serious offers will be considered.

I have not changed the prices, but any and all reasonable offers will be considered. Shipping is the responsibility of the purchaser. Money orders will ship upon receipt. Orders paid for be check will be held til check clears.  For more details or any items of interest please contact me at:

albertsr@attbi.com

My AOL email box is a black hole with more than 900 message most of the time.

Manufacturer Kit No. Price


Woodland Senics
Tommy's Treehouse M107 7.50
Ernie's Fruit Stand M109 7.00
Tombstones D201 4.50


Micro Engineering
Groger's Grocery 70-604 9.50


Model Power
Farm House #433 15.00
Grandma's House #487 15.00


Con Cor
Ma's Place #9051 10.70


California Model Co
Interlocking Tower & Shed #61 11.75


DMK
Fuel Oil Distributorship KH102 6.00


Walthers
Don's Shoe Store 933-3000 11.00
Farmers Co-op Elevator 933-3036 23.00
Interstate Fuel & Oil 933-3006 23.50


Pikestuff
Tool & Handcar Shed #0006 2.50


Design Preservation
*Skip's Chicken & Ribs #105 8.00
Carol's Corner Cafe' #113 9.00
Carr's Parts #116 10.00
Seymour Building #121 9.00
*Front St Bldg #120 9.00
Roberts Dry Goods #102 8.00
*Kelly's Saloon #101 8.00
*Other Corner Cafe #115 9.00
Freight Depot #107 9.00
Shultz's Garage #201 8.00
Walker Bldg #204 9.00
*Laube's Linen Mill #106 9.00
C Smith Packing #203 9.00
City Cab Co #112 9.00
Cuttings Scissors Co #103 9.00
B Moore Catalog Showroom #104 9.00
 --part1_d3.168915ad.2b2e40da_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 16:57:24 -0600 Subject: [PRR] "The Panhandle" In Illinois From: Bill & Bobbie Molony I am researching the west end of "The Panhandle" in Illinois and am in need of photos from any time period. The specific locations that I am interested in are Lansing, Bernice Jct, Dolton, Riverdale, West Pullman, Washington Heights, Beverly Hills, and 59th Street Yard. Assistance in locating photos or other information about this portion of the PRR would be greatly appreciated. Bill Molony, Blackhawk Chapter, NRHS Lockport, IL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:16:24 -0500 From: Ken Meyer Subject: [PRR] 5906 PRR class AS10s List: What can you tell me about this Alco Road-Switcher? I know it was assigned to the Maryland Division according to M.P. 229 Assignment of Locomotives from 7/1/49 to 3/1/56. And in Pennsy Power II (page 213) notes that it changed class to ARS10sx and re-numbered to 9916. In Don Ball, Jr.'s [PRR 40s-50s], on page 93 he mentions an AS-10. Could this be 5906? Thanks for any bit of info. Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS 694 Bel Air, Maryland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ken Meyer Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:16:24 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] 5906 PRR class AS10s List: What can you tell me about this Alco Road-Switcher? I know it was assigned to the Maryland Division according to M.P. 229 Assignment of Locomotives from 7/1/49 to 3/1/56. And in Pennsy Power II (page 213) notes that it changed class to ARS10sx and re-numbered to 9916. In Don Ball, Jr.'s [PRR 40s-50s], on page 93 he mentions an AS-10. Could this be 5906? Thanks for any bit of info. Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS 694 Bel Air, Maryland "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] 5906 PRR class AS10s Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:52:36 -0500 Ken: Alco RS1 #5906 (PRR class AS-10s) builders number 76214, built 12/48, Renumbered 9916 2/67 and re-classed ARS-10sx (no MU) To Penn Central - off the roster by 6/73 "Penn Central System Bi-Annual" by Robert H. Reid "Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial, Volume 1 - Alco RS series" by John Hahn Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com.trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Ken Meyer Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 10:16 PM To: PRR-Talk; PRR Fax Subject: [PRR] 5906 PRR class AS10s List: What can you tell me about this Alco Road-Switcher? I know it was assigned to the Maryland Division according to M.P. 229 Assignment of Locomotives from 7/1/49 to 3/1/56. And in Pennsy Power II (page 213) notes that it changed class to ARS10sx and re-numbered to 9916. In Don Ball, Jr.'s [PRR 40s-50s], on page 93 he mentions an AS-10. Could this be 5906? Thanks for any bit of info. Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS 694 Bel Air, Maryland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:17:56 -0600 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] 5906 PRR class AS10s Hi Ken--I think in Ball's PRR 40s-50s he intended to mean AS-10 generically, without any subclassification. From Withers PRR Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Vol. 1, 5906 was the Pennsy's first road switcher, acquired specifically to power Baltimore to Parkton commuters, the only class AS-10s. It was equipped with steam generator, cab signals, no trainphone antenna, and no MU equipment. There are two photos on p. 11, one in 1958 in Parkton with a passenger car, the other at some later year as a yard switcher. The photo on p. 93 of Ball's book is probably 5906. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Meyer" To: "PRR-Talk" ; "PRR Fax" Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 9:16 PM Subject: [PRR] 5906 PRR class AS10s > List: > What can you tell me about this Alco Road-Switcher? > I know it was assigned to the Maryland Division according to M.P. 229 > Assignment of Locomotives from 7/1/49 to 3/1/56. > And in Pennsy Power II (page 213) notes that it changed class to ARS10sx > and re-numbered to 9916. > In Don Ball, Jr.'s [PRR 40s-50s], on page 93 he mentions an AS-10. Could > this be 5906? > Thanks for any bit of info. > Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS 694 > Bel Air, Maryland > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] 5906 PRR class AS10s Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 22:17:56 -0600 Hi Ken--I think in Ball's PRR 40s-50s he intended to mean AS-10 generically, without any subclassification. From Withers PRR Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Vol. 1, 5906 was the Pennsy's first road switcher, acquired specifically to power Baltimore to Parkton commuters, the only class AS-10s. It was equipped with steam generator, cab signals, no trainphone antenna, and no MU equipment. There are two photos on p. 11, one in 1958 in Parkton with a passenger car, the other at some later year as a yard switcher. The photo on p. 93 of Ball's book is probably 5906. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Meyer" To: "PRR-Talk" ; "PRR Fax" Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 9:16 PM Subject: [PRR] 5906 PRR class AS10s > List: > What can you tell me about this Alco Road-Switcher? > I know it was assigned to the Maryland Division according to M.P. 229 > Assignment of Locomotives from 7/1/49 to 3/1/56. > And in Pennsy Power II (page 213) notes that it changed class to ARS10sx > and re-numbered to 9916. > In Don Ball, Jr.'s [PRR 40s-50s], on page 93 he mentions an AS-10. Could > this be 5906? > Thanks for any bit of info. > Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS 694 > Bel Air, Maryland > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] T1 hauled Broadway Limited? From: Matthew J Brown Date: 16 Dec 2002 00:54:43 -0800 When would have been the last (approx) time one would have seen the Broadway hauled by a T1, and would it have been the prewar train at that time, or the new postwar one? -Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 06:07:12 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] T1 hauled Broadway Limited? From: Jerry Britton On 12/16/02 3:54 AM, "Matthew J Brown" wrote: > When would have been the last (approx) time one would have seen the > Broadway hauled by a T1, and would it have been the prewar train at > that time, or the new postwar one? > T1's weren't even built until the 40's, so not pre-war. Definitely through the late 40's, perhaps until 1950-52. This is just a "starting point". I'm sure others can refine it further. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] T1 hauled Broadway Limited? Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 07:23:23 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C2A4D4.04475180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think that the 2 prototypes (6110 & 6111) were probably used on the Br= oadway on and off starting in 1942. The rest of the T-1 fleet, built and = completed in 1946, would have also had the opportunity to pull the Broadw= ay up until 1948, when passenger engines such as E's, PA's, Centi's, BP-2= 0's arrived in masse. From 1945 to 1948, the Broadway may have been pulle= d by a variety of both steam and diesel. As far as the pre-war passenger equipment is concerned, that hung around = on the Broadway until the arrival of the ACF cars in 1948. I think that o= nce those cars arrived, the PRR management would be rather insistent that= the new diesels would be pulling the new light-weight cars. (Has anyone = seen photos to the contrary regarding this?) =20 Hence, I would assume that the best time to have seen a T-1 pulling the B= roadway would be from 1942 to 1948, with the frequency peaking from 1946 = to 1948. I hope that this helps but please feel free to add, modify, and rebuke. Ted Andrews =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Britton Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 6:16 AM To: Matthew J Brown; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] T1 hauled Broadway Limited? =20 On 12/16/02 3:54 AM, "Matthew J Brown" wrote: > When would have been the last (approx) time one would have seen the > Broadway hauled by a T1, and would it have been the prewar train at > that time, or the new postwar one? > =20 T1's weren't even built until the 40's, so not pre-war. Definitely throug= h the late 40's, perhaps until 1950-52. This is just a "starting point". I'm sure others can refine it further. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C2A4D4.04475180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think that&n= bsp;the 2 prototypes (6110 &  6111) were probably used on the Br= oadway on and off starting in 1942. The rest of the T-1 fleet,&= nbsp;built and completed in 1946, would have also had the opportunity to = pull the Broadway up until 1948, when passenger engines such as E's,= PA's, Centi's, BP-20's arrived in masse. From 1945 to 1948, the Bro= adway may have been pulled by a variety of both steam and diesel.
 
As far as the pre-war passenger equipment is c= oncerned, that hung around on the Broadway until the arrival of the ACF c= ars in 1948. I think that once those cars arrived, the PRR management wou= ld be rather insistent that the new diesels would be pulling the&nbs= p;new light-weight cars. (Has anyone seen photos to the contrary&nbs= p;regarding this?)
 
Hence, I would assu= me that the best time to have seen a T-1 pulling the Broad= way would be from 1942 to 1948, with the frequency peaking from= 1946 to 1948.
 
I hope that this helps b= ut please feel free to add, modify, and rebuke.
 
Ted Andrews  
 
= ----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry Britton
Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 6:16 AM
<= DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">To: Matthew J Brown; PRR-Talk
=
Subject: Re: [PRR] T1 hauled Broa= dway Limited?
 
On 12/16/02 3:54 AM, "Matthew J Brow= n" <morven@byz.org> wrote:

> When would have been the las= t (approx) time one would have seen the
> Broadway hauled by a T1, = and would it have been the prewar train at
> that time, or the new = postwar one?
>
T1's weren't even built until the 40's, so not p= re-war. Definitely through
the late 40's, perhaps until 1950-52.
This is just a "starting point". I'm sure others can refine it further.=
---------------------------------------------------------------------=
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com&n= bsp;    Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", = a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller o= f model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the w= eb site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing= lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purch= ase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Interne= t endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise= .pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!---------------= --------------


-----------------------------------------------= ------------------------
For assistance with this list, please visit h= ttp://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C2A4D4.04475180-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 09:01:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] T1 hauled Broadway Limited? In a message dated 12/16/02 3:00:40 AM Central Standard Time, morven@byz.org writes: << When would have been the last (approx) time one would have seen the Broadway hauled by a T1, and would it have been the prewar train at that time, or the new postwar one? >> In December 1946, the PRR listed the proposed assignments for the dieselization of the Blue Ribbon fleet. By December 1947 the next batch of 6 E7 ABA sets, plus other builder's locos, arrived. Thus by 1948 the likelihood of a T1 on the Broadway was slim . New ACF cars begin arriving in in 1948, but the Pullman-Standard tail cars Mountain View and Tower View, lounge cars Harbor Rest and Harbor Cove, Creek duplex cars, and pool 10-6s did not arrive until first half 1949. By that time chances of a T1 on the Broadway were slim to none. As usual, never say never, but a T1 pulling the complete new postwar Broadway wasn't very likely. As a matter of fact, I suspect that by 1949 even a diesel breakdown would probably call for either another passenger diesel or double-headed K4s before a T1. There are multiple video shots of diesels pulling the Broadway with the mixed consists of 1948 and 1938 cars during the transition. Haven't seen one with a T1 but it is possible one exists. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] T1 hauled Broadway Limited? Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 09:31:54 -0600 Is there any documented proof that the T-1 ever hauled the Broadway? -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com] Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 8:01 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] T1 hauled Broadway Limited? In a message dated 12/16/02 3:00:40 AM Central Standard Time, morven@byz.org writes: << When would have been the last (approx) time one would have seen the Broadway hauled by a T1, and would it have been the prewar train at that time, or the new postwar one? >> In December 1946, the PRR listed the proposed assignments for the dieselization of the Blue Ribbon fleet. By December 1947 the next batch of 6 E7 ABA sets, plus other builder's locos, arrived. Thus by 1948 the likelihood of a T1 on the Broadway was slim . New ACF cars begin arriving in in 1948, but the Pullman-Standard tail cars Mountain View and Tower View, lounge cars Harbor Rest and Harbor Cove, Creek duplex cars, and pool 10-6s did not arrive until first half 1949. By that time chances of a T1 on the Broadway were slim to none. As usual, never say never, but a T1 pulling the complete new postwar Broadway wasn't very likely. As a matter of fact, I suspect that by 1949 even a diesel breakdown would probably call for either another passenger diesel or double-headed K4s before a T1. There are multiple video shots of diesels pulling the Broadway with the mixed consists of 1948 and 1938 cars during the transition. Haven't seen one with a T1 but it is possible one exists. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:26:08 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Berwind-White/Clearfield County collieries/South Fork stuff A couple days ago I mentioned that Berwind-White C. M. Co., the corporation, had at its formation in January of 1886 acquired properties owned by the Berwind, White partnership, including several Ocean and Atlantic collieries. I said that there were several Ocean and Atlantic collieries in Westmoreland County, and suggested that these were the ones mentioned in the Berwind history. Wrong. History of Clearfield County Lewis Cass Aldrich D. Mason & Co. Syracuse, N. Y. 1887 In the chapter on coal mining in Clearfield County, several Ocean and a couple Atlantic collieries are mentioned. All of them began life under the ownership of others but were at various times before 1887 acquired by Berwind, White or Berwind-White. That doesn't althetyhe fact that BWCMCo. did own several Ocean Collieries in Westmoreland County, but those apparently were not the Ocean Collieries acquired at the beginning of the corporation's life. The Karthaus and Cataract mines mentioned as part of the original group of mines were, at that time, served by the Susquehanna and Clearfield, a PRR subsidiary built in 1884, which ran along the West Branch from Karthaus to Keating. It was later sold to the NYC (or its Beech Creek subsidiary). Schotter notes in his PRR history that the PRR sold the S&C in 1900, since it "...failed to develop a remunerative traffic." Perhaps that disappointment contributed to the PRR's reluctance to honor E. J. Berwind's request that they build the South Fork Branch? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] T1 hauled Broadway Limited? Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 20:40:48 +0000 I am venturing into speculation here but I suspect that the number of times a T would have been used would be very few. With the on time guaruntees and loading wouldn't two K4's with 12 drive wheels have better tractive force and adhesion than the T with 8 wheels? Wouldn't they also be able to start a train quicker, pull more weight, and keep going in the event one failed among other issues. The Broadway was not the place to experiment in my opinion. How about the odds of a K4 as the road engine and a t-1 as the helper? Don't think I have ever seen that combination pictured. > In a message dated 12/16/02 3:00:40 AM Central Standard Time, morven@byz.org > writes: > > << When would have been the last (approx) time one would have seen the > Broadway hauled by a T1, and would it have been the prewar train at > that time, or the new postwar one? >> > > In December 1946, the PRR listed the proposed assignments for the > dieselization of the Blue Ribbon fleet. By December 1947 the next batch of 6 > E7 ABA sets, plus other builder's locos, arrived. Thus by 1948 the > likelihood of a T1 on the Broadway was slim . > > New ACF cars begin arriving in in 1948, but the Pullman-Standard tail cars > Mountain View and Tower View, lounge cars Harbor Rest and Harbor Cove, Creek > duplex cars, and pool 10-6s did not arrive until first half 1949. By that > time chances of a T1 on the Broadway were slim to none. As usual, never say > never, but a T1 pulling the complete new postwar Broadway wasn't very likely. > As a matter of fact, I suspect that by 1949 even a diesel breakdown would > probably call for either another passenger diesel or double-headed K4s before > a T1. > > There are multiple video shots of diesels pulling the Broadway with the mixed > consists of 1948 and 1938 cars during the transition. Haven't seen one with > a T1 but it is possible one exists. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] 5906 PRR class AS10s Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:51:42 -0500 When I was assigned to Canton Diesel Shop in 1963, the 5906 was used as a hump engine and, because it was equipped with a steam generator, was called upon, on occasion to assist passenger trains to Pittsburgh (on the point no less, with the fireman riding in the E-units behind) when the steam generators were not putting out enough steam during extremely cold weather. Bill Volkmer (Ex- PRR) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Wayne S. Betty Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 10:53 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] 5906 PRR class AS10s Ken: Alco RS1 #5906 (PRR class AS-10s) builders number 76214, built 12/48, Renumbered 9916 2/67 and re-classed ARS-10sx (no MU) To Penn Central - off the roster by 6/73 "Penn Central System Bi-Annual" by Robert H. Reid "Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial, Volume 1 - Alco RS series" by John Hahn Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com.trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Ken Meyer Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2002 10:16 PM To: PRR-Talk; PRR Fax Subject: [PRR] 5906 PRR class AS10s List: What can you tell me about this Alco Road-Switcher? I know it was assigned to the Maryland Division according to M.P. 229 Assignment of Locomotives from 7/1/49 to 3/1/56. And in Pennsy Power II (page 213) notes that it changed class to ARS10sx and re-numbered to 9916. In Don Ball, Jr.'s [PRR 40s-50s], on page 93 he mentions an AS-10. Could this be 5906? Thanks for any bit of info. Ken Meyer, PRRT&HS 694 Bel Air, Maryland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:44:50 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Erratum I found this phrase in my post regarding Berwind-White: "That doesn't althetyhe fact that BWCMCo. did own several Ocean Collieries in Westmoreland County,..." For "althetyhe", read "alter the". And yes, I ran a spell-checker, and no, I have no clue what happened. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 22:39:59 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: [PRR] Decoders -Does Soundtraxx manufacture a decoder that can pass for a PRR M1 class whistle? I know the whistles are not exact to PRR, but which sound decoder can I go with to somewhat meet my need? -I have a sound cam installed, do decoders have input for synchronized chuff? -Any other suggestions (serious ones, please? -All of the above are in effect until QSI fulfills their exclusivity contract with BLI and releases sound decoders independently! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 08:00:06 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Decoders Greg, From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr" Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 22:39:59 -0500 -Does Soundtraxx manufacture a decoder that can pass for a PRR M1 class whistle? I know the whistles are not exact to PRR, but which sound decoder can I go with to somewhat meet my need? -I have a sound cam installed, do decoders have input for synchronized chuff? Soundtraxx has two decoders that I know of that support the cam option. One is the DSX (no motor drivers) the other is the DSD with motor drivers. To the best of my knowledge, the LCL decoders that have variable whistle functions do not have cam support. I have seen some references to newer LCL decoders with cam support but I have not seen one yet. The LCL is the best choice, if they have revised their decoders to accomodate cam support, since the single-tone whistle is close to the PRR banshee shriek they used on freight locomotives. One choice is the DSX "peanut" whistle for sound and cam support and a cheap, second decoder for the motor drivers. Fair warning ! If you choose the DSD decoder be aware that it has a drift problem when a short occurs on a Digitrax system. Evidence with two different locomotives on two different layouts, one is mine, the other is Larry Reynolds. This does not happen every time but it does occur often enough to warrant caution as to where you have the loco sitting idle. The sound of a locomotive hitting the bottom of the turntable pit is quite disturbing, especially when the sound unit does not activate in "drift" mode. Good luck, Nick Kulp http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 09:09:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Decoders Greg, According to Soundtraxx's email to me awhile back, they, Soundtraxx, is waiting for K4s 1361 to finish being rebuilt. Once finished they plan on getting the PRR Whistle sound from that loco to put in their sound boads. That email to me was their response for my offer of letting them record my K4 Whislte sounds I have on my website for their use. They listened to my K4 Whislte files and I even sent my Video of the Whistle being Blown. There is aprox 10 minutes worth of sounds on the video. They declined to use it for their sound board. They said they didn't hear a sequence they are after. They insisted I send my K4 Whistle to them so they could record what they wanted. (they have a source for steam out there in Colorodo) I told them, Yea, Right!!! So I guess you will have to wait several more years for a nice PRR Whistle to be released. But I am guessing QS1 will be released first, although probably not as good as a Soundtraxx.....Gary PS: The K4 and M1 Whistle were the same type 3 Chime. In fact my Whistle is stamped for both K4s 5343 and M1 6998. Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: [PRR] Bowser Boilers Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 09:12:26 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2A5AC.6AE362C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have acquired several Bowser boilers as part of a package deal. Is = there any way to ID the boiler to an application, e.g. H, E, G, K, L, = etc? I have tried to match them up with the catalog pictures, but still = having trouble discerning.=20 Thanks. Tom Mahon ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2A5AC.6AE362C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have acquired several Bowser boilers = as part of a=20 package deal. Is there any way to ID the boiler to an application, e.g. = H, E, G,=20 K, L, etc? I have tried to match them up with the catalog pictures, but = still=20 having trouble discerning.
 
Thanks.
 
Tom Mahon
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C2A5AC.6AE362C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Chicago Terminal Chapter Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 14:41:50 +0000 In the event there is anyone new to the list in the Chicago area we are very successfully getting a Chicago chapter off the ground. We now have between 15 and 20 people who plan to have our second meeting on 1/4/02 in Homewood, Illinois. We have two people who worked Engelwood Tower and I just heard from a person who worked in the PRR rate department. If you want more information please feel free to e mail me as anyone is welcome to come that is able. We are meeting on a Saturday afternoon so you should have plenty of time to make it a one day event within 200-250 miles if you need to. This is a chance to be a charter member of a group that has aspiratins of hosting the National Convention some day ( but not for awhile!). Better yet we don't have any membership dues at this point. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 09:50:24 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Decoders In a message dated 12/17/02 7:08:30 AM Central Standard Time, caseyj@igateway.com writes: << since the single-tone whistle is close to the PRR banshee shriek they used on freight locomotives. >> Unfortunately, I thought the M1s all had multichime whistles. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:57:47 -0800 (PST) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] streamlined K4s --0-264373812-1040158667=:58079 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, how many streamlined K4's were used by the PRR? When were they constructed and when were they scrapped? Where there other streamlined locomotives on the Pennsy? Thanks, Geoffrey --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-264373812-1040158667=:58079 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi, how many streamlined K4's were used by the PRR?
When were they constructed and when were they scrapped?

Where there other streamlined locomotives on the Pennsy?
Thanks, Geoffrey


Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now --0-264373812-1040158667=:58079-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 19:40:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser Boilers --part1_153.1910f36b.2b311dea_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/17/02 9:19:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, tmahon@adelphia.net writes: > I have acquired several Bowser boilers as part of a package deal. Is there > any way to ID the boiler to an application, e.g. H, E, G, K, L, etc? The H & E are the same (four window cab) the K & L are the same casting (two window cab) the "G" if you have one, is the E-H boiler, with the K-L cab. --part1_153.1910f36b.2b311dea_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/17/02 9:19:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, tmahon@adelphia.net writes:


I have acquired several Bowser boilers as part of a package deal. Is there any way to ID the boiler to an application, e.g. H, E, G, K, L, etc?


The H & E are the same (four window cab) the K & L are the same casting (two window cab) the "G" if you have one, is the E-H boiler, with the K-L cab.


 --part1_153.1910f36b.2b311dea_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 17:24:07 -0800 (PST) From: "Matthew J. Brown" Subject: Bowser question, was Re: [PRR] Bowser Boilers Which brings to mind a question I had: in the opinion of list members, which Bowser kits can (with work) produce good results, and which aren't worth bothering with? I've never built one, and would like to. Also, which would be a good one to start with -- the A5s? -Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 00:12:11 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: Bowser question, was Re: [PRR] Bowser Boilers In my opinion, the K is the easiest if you build as a basic kit with a superdetailing kit. The running boards are part of the boiler. Unless you want to go the extra mile and cut them off, they look good as is. If you replace the motor with a Helix-Humper motor with the motor mount, it will run 10x better. Their is not too much piping on the K4, unless you go with a prototype that had extra piping. Keep the model to an earlier year of production, and the locomotive will have clean longitudinal lines with less piping. Best of all, you can easily pull 10-14 cars behind it with no problem. Contact me off list for more information. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Matthew J. Brown Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 8:24 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Bowser question, was Re: [PRR] Bowser Boilers Which brings to mind a question I had: in the opinion of list members, which Bowser kits can (with work) produce good results, and which aren't worth bothering with? I've never built one, and would like to. Also, which would be a good one to start with -- the A5s? -Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 22:36:51 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser Boilers Tom, list Some of the boilers have part numbers cast into the inner top of the boiler which may help you. I only have one Bowser engine with the older lead boiler, but all of the Bowser engines I've built with zinc boilers have the part number cast in. You should be able to reference that to the parts list that Bowser includes with their catalog. Doug --- Tom Mahon wrote: > I have acquired several Bowser boilers as part of a > package deal. Is there any way to ID the boiler to > an application, e.g. H, E, G, K, L, etc? I have > tried to match them up with the catalog pictures, > but still having trouble discerning. > > Thanks. > > Tom Mahon __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: Bowser question, was Re: [PRR] Bowser Boilers Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:39:22 -0500 Matt, I would start vert simple Such as an Atlantic or the T1 both have very few parts I know I say the T1 but it has been the easiest kit I have put together. Very little in terms of detail parts and all the holes are drilled. Just my opinion Sam Vastano >From: "Matthew J. Brown" >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: Bowser question, was Re: [PRR] Bowser Boilers >Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 17:24:07 -0800 (PST) > >Which brings to mind a question I had: in the opinion of list members, >which Bowser kits can (with work) produce good results, and which aren't >worth bothering with? I've never built one, and would like to. > >Also, which would be a good one to start with -- the A5s? > >-Matt > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. my _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 08:10:06 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Helix humpers There have been quite a few members mentioning that they are converting their Bowser locomotives with the Helix Humper conversions. I have done this with a K4 and I have some mixed feelings about the coversion. True the can motor makes the Bowser more DCC compatible but the cheap, 3-pole motor used in the Helix Humper makes the locomotive run terribly. The Pittman 5-pole motor is a power hog and will blow a decoder in a heartbeat, but there aren't enough OOOOOs in SmOOOOTH to define it's performance. For the cost, I would take one of the KATO or NWSL motors and put the humper gear on it. It is not a 'plug n play' installation but the results are much better. I have also taken a NWSL 36-1 idler gear set and a NWSL can motor to convert a I1. It was a lot of work but the results were unbelievable. I even had room for a flywheel. The loco crawls and has a moderate coasting action. The loco's detailing is lacking but I cannot complain about the performance. This is my opinion, given freely and worth exactly that, Nick Kulp http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: Bowser question, was Re: [PRR] Bowser Boilers Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 08:55:04 -0500 Matt, Most of my "good" locomotives are Penn Line or Bowser. (I'm dating myself). The first was an E6s for hitting a home run in Little League. This engine is still in service 40 some years later (rods and valve gear assembly replaced only once). The last three I built were the M1b, the I1sa (improved boiler) and the T1. I don't want to brag, but the results were mistaken for imported brass pieces. With the detail parts available and a little extra effort these make very convincing models. Yeah, they are not super, super accurate, but they are so damn close most people will be impressed. Plus, they are good durable runners and excellent pullers. Hope this helps. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Matthew J. Brown [mailto:morven@byz.org] Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 8:24 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Bowser question, was Re: [PRR] Bowser Boilers Which brings to mind a question I had: in the opinion of list members, which Bowser kits can (with work) produce good results, and which aren't worth bothering with? I've never built one, and would like to. Also, which would be a good one to start with -- the A5s? -Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:59:30 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: Bowser question, was Re: [PRR] Bowser Boilers Sam Suggests: >I would start vert simple Such as an Atlantic or the T1 both have very few >parts I know I say the T1 but it has been the easiest kit I have put >together. Very little in terms of detail parts and all the holes are >drilled. I would second the T1. The "new" kit (now 5-6 yrs old) is a vast improvement on the old, comes drilled for most of the detail parts, goes together well, and actually represents at least one prototype (#5511 - modified front end with fully shrouded tender)! As for the E6, there is a FANTASTIC article "Apex of the Atlantics - superdetailing Bowser PRR 4-4-2's" in the December 1990 Model Railroader, page 116, by Tom Busack, which build both an as built and a "modernized" version. Mine is currently sitting in the "to do" project pile, since Rail Classics dropped their project (not their fault - apparently no-one wants a high quality brass E6...) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Bowser E6 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 14:22:01 +0000 I built one of those about fifteen years ago. It waddles down the track. It yaws side to side and up and down in an oscilating motion. Never could figure out what was causing it. Bowser exchanged the drivers and axles and it still does it. Now it sits at the roundhouse. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 08:45:47 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] streamlined K4s >Hi, how many streamlined K4's were used by the PRR? When were they >constructed and when were they scrapped? Where there other streamlined >locomotives on the Pennsy? Thanks, Geoffrey Paraphrasing Doug Kisala, Gary Mittner & Dan Cupper back in 1998 & 1999 (from the PRR-talk archives) Dan said: "PRR had five streamlined K4s, all retrofitted with sheet-metal skirting, none built new with streamlining. No. 3768 was the first, converted in 1936, and this is the classic Loewy design with the fat fairing over the pilot area. Loewy used a similar design with the S1, which was completed in early 1939 as a built-new streamlined engine. The others, which wore the design you cited, were converted 1940-41 and they were 1120, 2665, 3678, and 5338. They did not have a winged keystone on the front, but a cast keystone numberplate that was shaped to match the spherical outline of the nose-cone fairing. Actually, the 3768 was streamlined without any keystone markings at all on the tender, only lettering. On the front, the PRR logo was high up on the front of the skyline casing, but later was moved down to just above the headline, probably to satisfy image-conscious PRR officials who may have felt that Loewy's subtle treatment of the keystone was not prominent enough." Summarizing data from Gary and Doug: 3768 - streamlined 1936, 180P75, then 110P75...painted "bronze" (shrouded at least until '45, "normal" in '50). Four other K4s were streamlined to a more limited extent 1120 - streamlined 1940, sold for scrap 12/54(shrouded at least until '45) 2665 - streamlined 1940 and sold for scrap in 1955 (shrouded at least until '48) 3678 - streamlined 1941 and sold for scrap in 1957 5338 - streamlined in 1941, sold for scrap in October 1955, shrouded until scrapping? In addition to the K4s, the PRR had several other "streamlined" locomotive classes, all built as streamliners. Among these would be: S1 - the "Big Engine" built in 1938(?), scrapped around 1950 T1 - 52 locos, prototypes 6110, 6111 built in 1942, fleet built in 1945, scrapped in 1952-53 Q1 - This loco, the "test bed" that led to the Q2 was built in 1943-4 (IIRC) and was quickly deshrouded. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser E6 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 09:54:03 -0500 Check drivers in quarter. Check valve gear hanger is square across frame, and parallel to drivers. Check pilot truck spring tension & washer locations. Check lateral play between drivers and sideframe. Disassemble drivers, add brass or fiber washers between drivers and frame Check machined axel-ways in frame for out of square, or out of round. If none of the above, leave on storage track at roundhouse. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:22 AM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Bowser E6 I built one of those about fifteen years ago. It waddles down the track. It yaws side to side and up and down in an oscilating motion. Never could figure out what was causing it. Bowser exchanged the drivers and axles and it still does it. Now it sits at the roundhouse. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser E6 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 15:12:22 +0000 Done all of the mentioned plus some others. I even tried using a dial indicator to see if the wheels were on at 90 degrees to the axles. Think the last idea is the one I will use. > Check drivers in quarter. > Check valve gear hanger is square across frame, and > parallel to drivers. > Check pilot truck spring tension & washer locations. > Check lateral play between drivers and sideframe. > Disassemble drivers, add brass or fiber washers between > drivers and frame > Check machined axel-ways in frame for out of square, > or out of round. > If none of the above, leave on storage track at roundhouse. > > Buzz > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:22 AM > To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Bowser E6 > > > I built one of those about fifteen years ago. It waddles down the track. > It > yaws side to side and up and down in an oscilating motion. Never could > figure > out what was causing it. Bowser exchanged the drivers and axles and it > still > does it. Now it sits at the roundhouse. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > **************************************************************************** > This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, > privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or > its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of > the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient > of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, > copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments > to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this > e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete > the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy > expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements > and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email > communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such > communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any > damages or other liability so arising. > **************************************************************************** > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 11:05:03 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser E6 Norm- You need to play with it to fine tune it. Is your good? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:22 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Bowser E6 I built one of those about fifteen years ago. It waddles down the track. It yaws side to side and up and down in an oscilating motion. Never could figure out what was causing it. Bowser exchanged the drivers and axles and it still does it. Now it sits at the roundhouse. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 11:13:59 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser E6 Meant to ask about your track. It is in good shape? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:05 AM To: ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser E6 Norm- You need to play with it to fine tune it. Is your good? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:22 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Bowser E6 I built one of those about fifteen years ago. It waddles down the track. It yaws side to side and up and down in an oscilating motion. Never could figure out what was causing it. Bowser exchanged the drivers and axles and it still does it. Now it sits at the roundhouse. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 11:13:12 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Helix humpers I recently completed a Bowser M1b which runs flawless with a NWSL 20328-9 16K rpm motor and 36:1 gearbox. Much work was required to install the new drive train. Helix Humper is the way to go if you don't want to go the route of semi-modest modifications for gearbox placement. Also, the M1b has excellent slow starting and pulling power that is comparable to none. You can weigh down any plastic model and it won't be a Bowser. You will need to learn how to drill into a cast boiler. Get ready to break some bits. Don't sweat it. Breaking bits is part of the learning process with Bowser engines. Guaranteed when finished, you will be extremely happy from your accomplishment. Nothing pulls like Bowser. Nick, I am interested in you concept of utilizing a Helix Humper worm with a NWSL motor. Does the diameter of the hole in the worm match the NWSL axle? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Nick Kulp Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 8:10 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Helix humpers There have been quite a few members mentioning that they are converting their Bowser locomotives with the Helix Humper conversions. I have done this with a K4 and I have some mixed feelings about the coversion. True the can motor makes the Bowser more DCC compatible but the cheap, 3-pole motor used in the Helix Humper makes the locomotive run terribly. The Pittman 5-pole motor is a power hog and will blow a decoder in a heartbeat, but there aren't enough OOOOOs in SmOOOOTH to define it's performance. For the cost, I would take one of the KATO or NWSL motors and put the humper gear on it. It is not a 'plug n play' installation but the results are much better. I have also taken a NWSL 36-1 idler gear set and a NWSL can motor to convert a I1. It was a lot of work but the results were unbelievable. I even had room for a flywheel. The loco crawls and has a moderate coasting action. The loco's detailing is lacking but I cannot complain about the performance. This is my opinion, given freely and worth exactly that, Nick Kulp http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser E6 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:28:10 -0600 Hi Bob and Listers: Obviously, it's not the drivers/axles. It's the frame. The grooves cut for the driver axles are not aligned properly. You simply replace the frame. Probably still available from Bowser. I had purchased the P-L H9 back in 1956 or so, and bought a second frame, drivers, and side rods. Never needed them, so "just goes to show you" how some products last and last and "just like the Energizer Bunny". :) Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, 18 December, 2002 08:22 AM Subject: [PRR] Bowser E6 > I built one of those about fifteen years ago. It waddles down the track. It > yaws side to side and up and down in an oscilating motion. Never could figure > out what was causing it. Bowser exchanged the drivers and axles and it still > does it. Now it sits at the roundhouse. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:46:29 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Helix humpers From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" > Nothing pulls like Bowser. Amen, amen, amen. Don Harper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Morgan Bilbo" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser E6 Apology Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:50:10 -0600 Hello again. I apologize to Norm. Where I got Bob, ?? Must have been a senior moment. And others have given a better answer than I. So "park it"! :) :) _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 12:00:36 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser E6 The E, K, and H have their axels against the frame. The M has bearing seats for the axel bearings. Norm may want to take the frame apart and file the inside of the frame for smoothness. All in all, it seems you need to take the locomotive to someone who has experience with fine tuning a drive train-something that comes with numerous building projects. Charles Burnley noted a good few possiblities to the engine not running properly. I found it most important that the wheels, without motor connected, roll freely across a glass or formica tabletop. If it does not, then it will not run smooth when the motor drives the engine. This is how I validate how fluid in motion the valve gear is operating. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of PennsyNut Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:28 AM To: ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser E6 Hi Bob and Listers: Obviously, it's not the drivers/axles. It's the frame. The grooves cut for the driver axles are not aligned properly. You simply replace the frame. Probably still available from Bowser. I had purchased the P-L H9 back in 1956 or so, and bought a second frame, drivers, and side rods. Never needed them, so "just goes to show you" how some products last and last and "just like the Energizer Bunny". :) Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, 18 December, 2002 08:22 AM Subject: [PRR] Bowser E6 > I built one of those about fifteen years ago. It waddles down the track. It > yaws side to side and up and down in an oscilating motion. Never could figure > out what was causing it. Bowser exchanged the drivers and axles and it still > does it. Now it sits at the roundhouse. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 12:11:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser E6 List, I always read and had the impression (not sure where I got this from) that all 4-4-2 Atlantics (prototype and models) had the tendencies to bob and appear to gallop down the track. Sure enough, way back I had an old Penn Line that was a dud of an engine. I then purchased the Brass E5 Atlantic from Alco Models. Big Mistake. Stay away from that Loco! It ran worse than the Penn Line. Anyway, both locos were never worth owning. I took a chance by purchasing several Key Import 4-4-2's (E3sd and E7s). Whew, they don't bob at all. So the theory of all Atlantics having bad chassis isn't true at all. I would blame the Bowser/PennLine bobbing/limping problem on misaligned axel slots, if ever so slight. If you got a good runner, feel very lucky....Gary. Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: Re: Bowser question, was Re: [PRR] Bowser Boilers Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 12:12:44 -0500 One thing to keep in mind about the T1 is that BLI is coming out with their sound equipped T1 late next year. At a street price of around $300 it looks to be a great deal. Eric Lauterbach > [Original Message] > From: Bruce F. Smith > To: > Date: 12/18/02 8:59:30 AM > Subject: Re: Bowser question, was Re: [PRR] Bowser Boilers > > Sam Suggests: > >I would start vert simple Such as an Atlantic or the T1 both have very few > >parts I know I say the T1 but it has been the easiest kit I have put > >together. Very little in terms of detail parts and all the holes are > >drilled. > > I would second the T1. The "new" kit (now 5-6 yrs old) is a vast > improvement on the old, comes drilled for most of the detail parts, goes > together well, and actually represents at least one prototype (#5511 - > modified front end with fully shrouded tender)! > > As for the E6, there is a FANTASTIC article "Apex of the Atlantics - > superdetailing Bowser PRR 4-4-2's" in the December 1990 Model Railroader, > page 116, by Tom Busack, which build both an as built and a "modernized" > version. Mine is currently sitting in the "to do" project pile, since Rail > Classics dropped their project (not their fault - apparently no-one wants a > high quality brass E6...) > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser E6 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 17:27:16 +0000 I have to admit I didn't consider the frame to be the problem as it was one of the built up brass ones. I'll check that out when I have time. Norm bell > The E, K, and H have their axels against the frame. The M has bearing > seats for the axel bearings. Norm may want to take the frame apart and > file the inside of the frame for smoothness. > > All in all, it seems you need to take the locomotive to someone who has > experience with fine tuning a drive train-something that comes with numerous > building projects. Charles Burnley noted a good few possiblities to the > engine not running properly. I found it most important that the wheels, > without motor connected, roll freely across a glass or formica tabletop. If > it does not, then it will not run smooth when the motor drives the engine. > This is how I validate how fluid in motion the valve gear is operating. > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of PennsyNut > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:28 AM > To: ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser E6 > > > Hi Bob and Listers: > > Obviously, it's not the drivers/axles. It's the frame. The grooves cut for > the driver axles are not aligned properly. You simply replace the frame. > Probably still available from Bowser. > > I had purchased the P-L H9 back in 1956 or so, and bought a second frame, > drivers, and side rods. Never needed them, so "just goes to show you" how > some products last and last and "just like the Energizer Bunny". :) > > Morgan Bilbo > Ferroequinologist > PRRTHS #1204 and SPF > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "PRR-Talk" > Sent: Wednesday, 18 December, 2002 08:22 AM > Subject: [PRR] Bowser E6 > > > > I built one of those about fifteen years ago. It waddles down the track. > It > > yaws side to side and up and down in an oscilating motion. Never could > figure > > out what was causing it. Bowser exchanged the drivers and axles and it > still > > does it. Now it sits at the roundhouse. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser E6 Now Frame Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 11:32:09 -0600 Hi again! Greg just lit up a light bulb in my head! :) All locos-when building from scratch, or when reassembling a brass loco - Place the drivers in the frame and roll on a piece of glass, just like Greg said. Do NOT do anything else until you are satisfied with the way they roll. Then, and only then, proceed with the assembly/reassembly. Bowser E6s's are the same as my H9s. You fasten the bottom plate on the frame. Then, retest on the glass, etc. Each time you make a change, retest on the glass. If this sounds oversimplified, it is! In no way am I trying to insult anyone's intelligence. You just have to take it one step at a time. I remember working on my Gem/Olympia H10s. I had all the parts all over the place, and had to do much the same thing; and it took "forever"! :) One more idea, when "filing the inside of the frame", use care. I used a pipe cleaner and "jewelers rouge" (or some thing like it). And be careful to not "over file". Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr" To: "PennsyNut" ; ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, 18 December, 2002 11:00 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser E6 > The E, K, and H have their axels against the frame. The M has bearing > seats for the axel bearings. Norm may want to take the frame apart and > file the inside of the frame for smoothness. > > All in all, it seems you need to take the locomotive to someone who has > experience with fine tuning a drive train-something that comes with numerous > building projects. Charles Burnley noted a good few possiblities to the > engine not running properly. I found it most important that the wheels, > without motor connected, roll freely across a glass or formica tabletop. If > it does not, then it will not run smooth when the motor drives the engine. > This is how I validate how fluid in motion the valve gear is operating. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 12:46:08 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser E6 Now Frame The role test should be done with the side rods on the locomotive. If it doesnt role freely, it most likely is the quartering. DO NOT TRUST BOWSER. I alway test the quartering of the drivers prior to building the engine. Keep in mind, it is a kit you are building. Another possibility is that the work done on riviting is too tight, causing kinking in the valve gear. Furthermore, if you replace the gear on the drive axle to put a new NWSL gearbox in, remember to put a shim of brass while pressing the wheel back on. I had an experience when I first started with my NWSL gear puller/press pressing the embossed counterweight on the drive wheel causing the wheel to be pressed onto the axle at a slight degree off 90- The wheel was not accurately perpendicular to the drive axle. Minimal at best, but when the wheels started turning, it took a serious toll on the performance of the locomotive. Also when done, run the engine very slow. Note where kinking occurs. You have to analyze the motion of the engine to see the problem. View it from all 4 angles. It is a learning experience. Put in the time, and you will succeed. Then everyone will envy you for your ability to make a steam loco run like it should, FLAWLESS. -----Original Message----- From: PennsyNut [mailto:PennsyNut@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 12:32 PM To: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr; ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser E6 Now Frame Hi again! Greg just lit up a light bulb in my head! :) All locos-when building from scratch, or when reassembling a brass loco - Place the drivers in the frame and roll on a piece of glass, just like Greg said. Do NOT do anything else until you are satisfied with the way they roll. Then, and only then, proceed with the assembly/reassembly. Bowser E6s's are the same as my H9s. You fasten the bottom plate on the frame. Then, retest on the glass, etc. Each time you make a change, retest on the glass. If this sounds oversimplified, it is! In no way am I trying to insult anyone's intelligence. You just have to take it one step at a time. I remember working on my Gem/Olympia H10s. I had all the parts all over the place, and had to do much the same thing; and it took "forever"! :) One more idea, when "filing the inside of the frame", use care. I used a pipe cleaner and "jewelers rouge" (or some thing like it). And be careful to not "over file". Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr" To: "PennsyNut" ; ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, 18 December, 2002 11:00 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser E6 > The E, K, and H have their axels against the frame. The M has bearing > seats for the axel bearings. Norm may want to take the frame apart and > file the inside of the frame for smoothness. > > All in all, it seems you need to take the locomotive to someone who has > experience with fine tuning a drive train-something that comes with numerous > building projects. Charles Burnley noted a good few possiblities to the > engine not running properly. I found it most important that the wheels, > without motor connected, roll freely across a glass or formica tabletop. If > it does not, then it will not run smooth when the motor drives the engine. > This is how I validate how fluid in motion the valve gear is operating. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 12:51:19 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: Bowser question, was Re: [PRR] Bowser Boilers "BLI is coming out with their sound equipped T1 late next year" ????? Let us see the PRR M, N&W Y, PRR GG1. No offense, their production schedule is a few years off. Take a look at the below link for those interested in working a Bowser T1 to it's best ability. http://www.xclent.clara.net/model_locos/t1_1.htm -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Eric Lauterbach Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 12:13 PM To: prr-talk Subject: Re: Bowser question, was Re: [PRR] Bowser Boilers One thing to keep in mind about the T1 is that BLI is coming out with their sound equipped T1 late next year. At a street price of around $300 it looks to be a great deal. Eric Lauterbach > [Original Message] > From: Bruce F. Smith > To: > Date: 12/18/02 8:59:30 AM > Subject: Re: Bowser question, was Re: [PRR] Bowser Boilers > > Sam Suggests: > >I would start vert simple Such as an Atlantic or the T1 both have very few > >parts I know I say the T1 but it has been the easiest kit I have put > >together. Very little in terms of detail parts and all the holes are > >drilled. > > I would second the T1. The "new" kit (now 5-6 yrs old) is a vast > improvement on the old, comes drilled for most of the detail parts, goes > together well, and actually represents at least one prototype (#5511 - > modified front end with fully shrouded tender)! > > As for the E6, there is a FANTASTIC article "Apex of the Atlantics - > superdetailing Bowser PRR 4-4-2's" in the December 1990 Model Railroader, > page 116, by Tom Busack, which build both an as built and a "modernized" > version. Mine is currently sitting in the "to do" project pile, since Rail > Classics dropped their project (not their fault - apparently no-one wants a > high quality brass E6...) > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Microsoft Train simulator Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 17:56:49 +0000 It appears I am getting this for Christmas. Has anyone done any PRR engines or routes that are available as add ons? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:09:12 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Microsoft Train simulator I would have given you my copy. It sucks. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 12:57 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Microsoft Train simulator It appears I am getting this for Christmas. Has anyone done any PRR engines or routes that are available as add ons? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: RE: Bowser question, was Re: [PRR] Bowser Boilers Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:17:12 -0500 Yes, I think BLI has named a lot of projects. But judging by the just released Hudson and the sample of the Class A, I think their engines will be worth the wait. Having a T1 that is already built, painted, and has sound is going to be very nice. Waiting until late 2003 or even early 2004 will not be that bad. Plus, they have a GG1 and a M1a/b coming out too. Eric > "BLI is coming out with their sound equipped T1 late next year" ????? Let us > see the PRR M, N&W Y, PRR GG1. No offense, their production schedule is a > few years off. > > Take a look at the below link for those interested in working a Bowser T1 to > it's best ability. > http://www.xclent.clara.net/model_locos/t1_1.htm > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Eric > Lauterbach > Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 12:13 PM > To: prr-talk > Subject: Re: Bowser question, was Re: [PRR] Bowser Boilers > > > One thing to keep in mind about the T1 is that BLI is coming out with their > sound equipped T1 late next year. At a street price of around $300 it looks > to be a great deal. > Eric Lauterbach > > > [Original Message] > > From: Bruce F. Smith > > To: > > Date: 12/18/02 8:59:30 AM > > Subject: Re: Bowser question, was Re: [PRR] Bowser Boilers > > > > Sam Suggests: > > >I would start vert simple Such as an Atlantic or the T1 both have very > few > > >parts I know I say the T1 but it has been the easiest kit I have put > > >together. Very little in terms of detail parts and all the holes are > > >drilled. > > > > I would second the T1. The "new" kit (now 5-6 yrs old) is a vast > > improvement on the old, comes drilled for most of the detail parts, goes > > together well, and actually represents at least one prototype (#5511 - > > modified front end with fully shrouded tender)! > > > > As for the E6, there is a FANTASTIC article "Apex of the Atlantics - > > superdetailing Bowser PRR 4-4-2's" in the December 1990 Model Railroader, > > page 116, by Tom Busack, which build both an as built and a "modernized" > > version. Mine is currently sitting in the "to do" project pile, since > Rail > > Classics dropped their project (not their fault - apparently no-one wants > a > > high quality brass E6...) > > > > Happy Rails > > Bruce > > > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > > __ > > / \ > > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser E6 Now Frame Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 12:45:05 -0600 My biggest problem with regaering is putting the drive wheel back on the axle so that it is precisely perpendicular to the axle. This is a much more difficult task than re-quartering this driver. And it is rarely addressed in the hobby magazines. -----Original Message----- From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr [mailto:gregvl@comcast.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:46 AM To: PennsyNut; ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser E6 Now Frame The role test should be done with the side rods on the locomotive. If it doesnt role freely, it most likely is the quartering. DO NOT TRUST BOWSER. I alway test the quartering of the drivers prior to building the engine. Keep in mind, it is a kit you are building. Another possibility is that the work done on riviting is too tight, causing kinking in the valve gear. Furthermore, if you replace the gear on the drive axle to put a new NWSL gearbox in, remember to put a shim of brass while pressing the wheel back on. I had an experience when I first started with my NWSL gear puller/press pressing the embossed counterweight on the drive wheel causing the wheel to be pressed onto the axle at a slight degree off 90- The wheel was not accurately perpendicular to the drive axle. Minimal at best, but when the wheels started turning, it took a serious toll on the performance of the locomotive. Also when done, run the engine very slow. Note where kinking occurs. You have to analyze the motion of the engine to see the problem. View it from all 4 angles. It is a learning experience. Put in the time, and you will succeed. Then everyone will envy you for your ability to make a steam loco run like it should, FLAWLESS. -----Original Message----- From: PennsyNut [mailto:PennsyNut@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 12:32 PM To: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr; ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser E6 Now Frame Hi again! Greg just lit up a light bulb in my head! :) All locos-when building from scratch, or when reassembling a brass loco - Place the drivers in the frame and roll on a piece of glass, just like Greg said. Do NOT do anything else until you are satisfied with the way they roll. Then, and only then, proceed with the assembly/reassembly. Bowser E6s's are the same as my H9s. You fasten the bottom plate on the frame. Then, retest on the glass, etc. Each time you make a change, retest on the glass. If this sounds oversimplified, it is! In no way am I trying to insult anyone's intelligence. You just have to take it one step at a time. I remember working on my Gem/Olympia H10s. I had all the parts all over the place, and had to do much the same thing; and it took "forever"! :) One more idea, when "filing the inside of the frame", use care. I used a pipe cleaner and "jewelers rouge" (or some thing like it). And be careful to not "over file". Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr" To: "PennsyNut" ; ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, 18 December, 2002 11:00 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser E6 > The E, K, and H have their axels against the frame. The M has bearing > seats for the axel bearings. Norm may want to take the frame apart and > file the inside of the frame for smoothness. > > All in all, it seems you need to take the locomotive to someone who has > experience with fine tuning a drive train-something that comes with numerous > building projects. Charles Burnley noted a good few possiblities to the > engine not running properly. I found it most important that the wheels, > without motor connected, roll freely across a glass or formica tabletop. If > it does not, then it will not run smooth when the motor drives the engine. > This is how I validate how fluid in motion the valve gear is operating. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:50:46 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Microsoft Train simulator Check out www.train-sim.com. They have some PRR equipment available for free download. Jeff ndbprr@att.net wrote: >It appears I am getting this for Christmas. Has anyone done any PRR engines or >routes that are available as add ons? > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:54:07 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports Update From: Jerry Britton Here's an update on BLI: There will be a second run of NYC J1e Hudson's, but it will be VERY LIMITED. It is due in February, with three road numbers. The difference is the lettering will be BLOCK instead of ORIGINAL. This is due to demand. These are due in February 2003. The balance of the original run is due in about three weeks. The N&W Class A is still due in March, as last updated. The PRR GG1 is still due in March, but only in three paint schemes (out of nine). Some "on the ball" listers informed them that paint wasn't the only difference and I think it got them to pull the other schemes until unique details are worked out. The other schemes will follow. The EMD E7's have seen their paint schemes reduced to four, but still due in April 2003. Other paint schemes will follow. The PRR M1's remain on schedule, as last announced, for June 2003. The USRA Heavy 2-8-2's have seen their paint schemes reduced to four, but still due in August 2003. The PRR T1's remain on schedule, as last announced, for October 2003. It looks like they will be taking on more of an InterMountain model...create a new unit, and then come out with a few paint schemes at a time, and keep the model available. We'll see. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:55:39 -0500 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] remotoring Nick, and others, While on the subject of Helix Humpers and NWSL motors, I have a question. Have you guys found the current series of NWSL motors to be just as good as the Sagami motors they used to sell? About 2 years ago I repowered an AHM J1 with a new NWSL (2236xx). The motor itself had a noticeable cogging action as you spin the shaft in your hand. And when I installed it, it ran smoothly but had a whirring and a whining noise, which I attributed to the old AHM gears). Then I replaced the NWSL motor with a Sagami (2231XX) and it is smoother and MUCH quieter. Also none of the three Sagami motors I have used have had any of the cogging action I observe on this one NWSL motor. Is this a common difference between the old Sgamai motors and the new NWSL motors. Or did I just happen to get a troubled NWSL motor? Thanks, Tom Hayden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:54:34 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser E6 Now Frame Yes I agree. It is rarely addressed. Furthermore, it is becoming a lost art with all the RTR kits available. Practice makes perfect. Get eye level with the press. Press it on slightly, then put it in the frame and spin it. See how the wheel spins to make sure it spins parallel to the frame. Then press it on more, and continue the process until you press the driver onto the axle and check the gauge of the wheels. Patience is a virtue. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: Cadwell, Marvin L [mailto:cadwelml@bp.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 1:45 PM To: 'Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr'; PennsyNut; ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser E6 Now Frame My biggest problem with regaering is putting the drive wheel back on the axle so that it is precisely perpendicular to the axle. This is a much more difficult task than re-quartering this driver. And it is rarely addressed in the hobby magazines. -----Original Message----- From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr [mailto:gregvl@comcast.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 11:46 AM To: PennsyNut; ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser E6 Now Frame The role test should be done with the side rods on the locomotive. If it doesnt role freely, it most likely is the quartering. DO NOT TRUST BOWSER. I alway test the quartering of the drivers prior to building the engine. Keep in mind, it is a kit you are building. Another possibility is that the work done on riviting is too tight, causing kinking in the valve gear. Furthermore, if you replace the gear on the drive axle to put a new NWSL gearbox in, remember to put a shim of brass while pressing the wheel back on. I had an experience when I first started with my NWSL gear puller/press pressing the embossed counterweight on the drive wheel causing the wheel to be pressed onto the axle at a slight degree off 90- The wheel was not accurately perpendicular to the drive axle. Minimal at best, but when the wheels started turning, it took a serious toll on the performance of the locomotive. Also when done, run the engine very slow. Note where kinking occurs. You have to analyze the motion of the engine to see the problem. View it from all 4 angles. It is a learning experience. Put in the time, and you will succeed. Then everyone will envy you for your ability to make a steam loco run like it should, FLAWLESS. -----Original Message----- From: PennsyNut [mailto:PennsyNut@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 12:32 PM To: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr; ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser E6 Now Frame Hi again! Greg just lit up a light bulb in my head! :) All locos-when building from scratch, or when reassembling a brass loco - Place the drivers in the frame and roll on a piece of glass, just like Greg said. Do NOT do anything else until you are satisfied with the way they roll. Then, and only then, proceed with the assembly/reassembly. Bowser E6s's are the same as my H9s. You fasten the bottom plate on the frame. Then, retest on the glass, etc. Each time you make a change, retest on the glass. If this sounds oversimplified, it is! In no way am I trying to insult anyone's intelligence. You just have to take it one step at a time. I remember working on my Gem/Olympia H10s. I had all the parts all over the place, and had to do much the same thing; and it took "forever"! :) One more idea, when "filing the inside of the frame", use care. I used a pipe cleaner and "jewelers rouge" (or some thing like it). And be careful to not "over file". Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr" To: "PennsyNut" ; ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, 18 December, 2002 11:00 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser E6 > The E, K, and H have their axels against the frame. The M has bearing > seats for the axel bearings. Norm may want to take the frame apart and > file the inside of the frame for smoothness. > > All in all, it seems you need to take the locomotive to someone who has > experience with fine tuning a drive train-something that comes with numerous > building projects. Charles Burnley noted a good few possiblities to the > engine not running properly. I found it most important that the wheels, > without motor connected, roll freely across a glass or formica tabletop. If > it does not, then it will not run smooth when the motor drives the engine. > This is how I validate how fluid in motion the valve gear is operating. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser E6 Now Frame Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 14:14:08 -0500 Guys, NWSL, or someone out there makes a quartering jig that aligns everything for you. I forget.....Anyone else remember??? Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Cadwell, Marvin L [mailto:cadwelml@bp.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 1:45 PM To: 'Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr'; PennsyNut; ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser E6 Now Frame My biggest problem with regaering is putting the drive wheel back on the axle so that it is precisely perpendicular to the axle. This is a much more difficult task than re-quartering this driver. And it is rarely addressed in the hobby magazines. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: Re: [PRR] Microsoft Train simulator Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:26:00 -0900 You can find GG1s in all paint schemes. I tried an expansion that extended the NEC to North Philadelphia, but I had problems getting to work. Train-sim.com has tons of good stuff. My only problem with Train Simulator is that it is a massive hard disk hog. Especially when you you start adding on third party locos/rolling stock/scenery. But a fun product nevertheless. -alex ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 8:56 AM Subject: [PRR] Microsoft Train simulator > It appears I am getting this for Christmas. Has anyone done any PRR engines or > routes that are available as add ons? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:38:34 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser E6 Now Frame >Guys, > >NWSL, or someone out there makes a quartering jig >that aligns everything for you. >I forget.....Anyone else remember??? > >Buzz NWSL, The Quarterer Walthers Part # 53-444, p. 922 Walthers 2003 HO Scale Reference HO scale, $33.95, currently in stock at Walthers The Quarterer II Professional For HO,S,On3 size drivers,up to 1.5"(39mm) dia,min..0135"(3.35mm)crank throw Walthers Part # 53-644, p. 922 Walthers 2003 HO Scale Reference HO scale, $125.95, currently in stock at Walthers The Quarterer III Professional For S, O, G Scale Wheels up to 2" Diameter - 1/4" & 6.0mm Axle Carrier Sets Walthers Part # 53-674, p. 922 Walthers 2003 HO Scale Reference You can get these cheaper from MicroMark, but the info is from the Walthers web site (http://www.walthers.com) AND REMEMBER, THE STANDARD RAILROAD OF THE WORLD HAD THE OPPOSITE (left handed) LEAD FROM EVERYONE ELSE!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:21:40 EST Subject: [PRR] T1 (was Bowser question) In a message dated 12/18/02 12:03:04 PM Central Standard Time, gregvl@comcast.net writes: << "BLI is coming out with their sound equipped T1 late next year" ????? Let us see the PRR M, N&W Y, PRR GG1. No offense, their production schedule is a few years off. >> I don't think the T1 is promised until 2004. I will finish my Bowser with Helix humper. BTW, someone said the Helix Humper had a three-pole motor. The ones I have sure don't run like a 3-pole motor. Have they changed the motor recently? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:27:03 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] remotoring In a message dated 12/18/02 1:26:00 PM Central Standard Time, thayden@keithley.com writes: << Or did I just happen to get a troubled NWSL motor? >> I haven't had a problem with the cogging, but there is a high frequency whine on the motors in my J1 and I1 at speed. Otherwise, mine do run great though. The whine may be due to the top speed of about 60mph at speed step 126 on the DCC, though I have the low speed high torque motors. At low speeds the I1 in particular ( a United) quiets down quite a bit. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:29:12 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser E6 Now Frame In a message dated 12/18/02 1:27:35 PM Central Standard Time, Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com writes: << NWSL, or someone out there makes a quartering jig that aligns everything for you. I forget.....Anyone else remember??? >> It is NWSL. I have only tried it once, unsuccessfully. Not sure if I can blame the tool, the operator, or the fact I was trying to fix one of the 4 lousy Spectrum K4s from the earlier batches and there just isn't much you can do with them to fix the "lope". Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 17:17:38 -0500 From: Nick Kulp Subject: [PRR] Re: remotoring --=====================_13745361==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Tom, Because of my frugality (I'm Cheap), I purchased the motors a while back, more than 5 years ago. I haven't tried any of the new motors as of yet. I have, however, tried one of the new P2K motors in a Westside K5. It had an open frame motor for a long time and I rarely run passenger trains so I didn't convert it. I had gotten a motor for an 0-8-0 from a basket case P2K loco so I gave it a try. The RPMs aren't as high but it helps to keep the Lionel runners at a more normal speed. It is VERY smooth. BTW if anyone is looking for a Cary boilered I1 with ALL of the castings, full instructions, and a can-motored Bowser mechanism. I have one (shell unbuilt) available. Contact me off-list if interested. I'll never complete it. Merry Christmas (or whatever holiday you celebrate), Nick Kulp >Nick, and others, > >While on the subject of Helix Humpers and NWSL motors, I have a question. >Have you guys found the current series of NWSL motors to be just as good as >the Sagami motors they used to sell? About 2 years ago I repowered an AHM >J1 with a new NWSL (2236xx). The motor itself had a noticeable cogging >action as you spin the shaft in your hand. And when I installed it, it ran >smoothly but had a whirring and a whining noise, which I attributed to the >old AHM gears). Then I replaced the NWSL motor with a Sagami (2231XX) and >it is smoother and MUCH quieter. Also none of the three Sagami motors I >have used have had any of the cogging action I observe on this one NWSL >motor. Is this a common difference between the old Sgamai motors and the >new NWSL motors. Or did I just happen to get a troubled NWSL motor? > >Thanks, Tom Hayden --=====================_13745361==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Tom,

Because of my frugality (I'm Cheap), I purchased the motors a while back, more than 5 years ago. I haven't tried any of the new motors as of yet. I have, however, tried one of the new P2K motors in a Westside K5. It had an open frame motor for a long time and I rarely run passenger trains so I didn't convert it. I had gotten a motor for an 0-8-0 from a basket case P2K loco so I gave it a try. The RPMs aren't as high but it helps to keep the Lionel runners at a more normal speed. It is VERY smooth.

BTW if anyone is looking for a Cary boilered I1 with ALL of the castings, full instructions, and a can-motored Bowser mechanism. I have one (shell unbuilt) available. Contact me off-list if interested. I'll never complete it.

Merry Christmas (or whatever holiday you celebrate),
Nick Kulp

Nick, and others,

While on the subject of Helix Humpers and NWSL motors, I have a question.
Have you guys found the current series of NWSL motors to be just as good as
the Sagami motors they used to sell? About 2 years ago I repowered an AHM
J1 with a new NWSL (2236xx). The motor itself had a noticeable cogging
action as you spin the shaft in your hand. And when I installed it, it ran
smoothly but had a whirring and a whining noise, which I attributed to the
old AHM gears). Then I replaced the NWSL motor with a Sagami (2231XX) and
it is smoother and MUCH quieter. Also none of the three Sagami motors I
have used have had any of the cogging action I observe on this one NWSL
motor. Is this a common difference between the old Sgamai motors and the
new NWSL motors. Or did I just happen to get a troubled NWSL motor?

Thanks,   Tom Hayden
--=====================_13745361==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: RE: [PRR] T1 (was Bowser question) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 18:03:14 -0500 The T1 is listed as late 2003 on the BLI website. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: Bowser question, was Re: [PRR] Bowser Boilers Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 19:21:24 -0500 Dear Matt: I have built at least two of every thing Bowser made, as well as the Penn Line and the English brand kit models. Some of the Bowser, like the K4s and the H9 I have built and detailed by the dozen over the years. They are all wonderful kits and produce very good models commensurate with your skill and patience. I highly recommend the Bowser line as you will wind up with a loco that will closely rival the detail of anything else you can buy and will outperform and outpull those other engines by 10 times. Unless you are into DCC, use the Pittman motor that comes with the kit. It is an Amp-hog but can drive your loco at 1 inch per hour. Each kit has some drawback or problem with detail accuracy, but these are only readily noticeable to the expert modelers and the nitpickers. The expert modelers just "rebuild" the problem if possible, replace parts or disguise it. NOTE, the problems I am referring to are all minor, i.e., the wrong style tender, wrong tender trucks etc. Parts are available from other manufacturers to make these corrections or they can be scratchbuilt. Nothing in this world is perfect, but your Bowser loco can come pretty darn close. My recommendation for a first kit would be the consolidation. There is a lot of prototype information available both written and pictorial to detail one of these engines for anywhere/anytime on the PRR line; they aren't too expensive, and details are available from a lot of manufacturers to do almost everything you want. They can easily negotiate up to 16 inch radius curves (good for industrial yards and intercity) and were actively used for many years on the PRR. You can use yours for switching, branchline operations, mainline freight or helper, depending on your era. The H9 is a very versatile prototype as well as an interesting, but not too difficult kit. If you file off the Belpaire boiler shoulders, and replace domes and details, it makes a credible NYC 080, too! :-) E-mail me if you need any help/advice putting your Bowser kit together. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew J. Brown" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 8:24 PM Subject: Bowser question, was Re: [PRR] Bowser Boilers > Which brings to mind a question I had: in the opinion of list members, > which Bowser kits can (with work) produce good results, and which aren't > worth bothering with? I've never built one, and would like to. > > Also, which would be a good one to start with -- the A5s? > > -Matt > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser E6 Now Frame Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 19:06:44 -0600 Hi All! > The role test should be done with the side rods on the locomotive. If it doesn't role freely, it most likely is the quartering. DO NOT TRUST BOWSER. I always test the quartering of the drivers prior to building the engine. Keep in mind, it is a kit you are building..........................And I say to that "Amen!" It's okay, Greg, you can tell us to do the test with side rods on the loco. I just hope you don't mean to wait till all the side rods are on, with all the screws in each driver. I prefer to do it one step at a time. In other words, I test each step, not jump to put side rods on, test, and find a bind; and then - try to find it! No, I check for that bind, wobble, etc. each and every time I put in a screw or two. For example, on an H9s, there's four axles to play with. If you have the side rods screwed in all, how do you find the bind? I am disagreeing friendly! Not trying to tell you or anyone "how to do it", only how I do it! Norm's problem is wobble, and he has an E6s, so he's got it easier than on an H9s. As for wobble being more prevalent on a 2 axle engine, that may be true. I sure don't know anything about the prototype. I never saw one in action other than on film, and most of the time, I'm drooling so bad, I can't even remember if it was wobbling. Grin! By the way, I'm proud to be a SPF, even if it means "Slobbering", because that's what a true modeler does when he/she sees The Favorite Railroad! > > Another possibility is that the work done on riviting is too tight, causing kinking in the valve gear..........................Again, I say "Amen!" > It is a learning experience. Put in the time, and you will succeed. Then everyone will envy you for your ability to make a steam loco run like it should, FLAWLESS...............................Greg - I couldn't have said it better! I never knew Bowser used a brass frame. That should make this all easier. The Zamak frames I have are holding up very well though! Hope this all helps you, Norm! I'm sure there's more email coming! Grin! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 07:29:04 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser E6 Now FrameSubject: Listers, When quartering the drivers on a PRR locomotive, don't forget that PRR used left-hand lead rather than the "normal" right-hand lead. I once bought a used PRR L1 that someone had regeared. When he reassembled it, he reversed the drivers on the loco and caused a short. To solve it he reversed the tender trucks. The loco looked strange to me when I set it on my layout. I finally saw what he did after I had it double-headed with another PFM 2-8-2. He never looked at which side was insulated. I took it apart and "restored" it back to the correct lead. Regards, Nick Kulp From: "Burnley, Charles" Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 14:14:08 -0500 Guys, NWSL, or someone out there makes a quartering jig that aligns everything for you. I forget.....Anyone else remember??? Buzz http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: Bowser question, was Re: [PRR] Bowser Boilers Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 08:32:03 -0500 Dick: The G5 is one of those lovely long legged ladies that waltzes down the track, and I know the love affair of which you speak. G5's don't take a whole lot of work to make them look impressive and I believe that all the detail parts are available commercially except for the smoke deflector on the cab roof. Finding prototype photos on which to base your detailing is a little more difficult I don't remember if the G5 had the lead or zamack boiler. You drill them differently. In a lead boiler, the bit MUST be sharp, use very little pressure, drill slowly and lubricate your bit with beeswax (the real stuff, not paraffin) Just drill into the beeswax each time before starting a hole, back out about every .010 inch and relubricate. This requires tremendous patience, but patience is cheaper than those small drills. Lead and lead alloys are very soft and have a tendency to "grab" the drill bit and hold on. That's when they break. It's almost impossible to get a broken drill tip from a lead hole, you have to drill alongside. To start a hole, use a large, sharp sewing needle or a very small, fine pointed hobby knife blade twirled over the spot to start your drill. Obviously, if you are starting an .080" hole you will use the pin and a 3/64" hole you can use the hobby knife. Zamack or zinc based white metal is rather hard and can be drilled using conventional drilling wisdom. Center punches and 3 in 1 oil are good for drilling in white metal. I have had good results with dry silicon powder mixed with oil for a drilling lubricant. White metal castings have exactly the opposite drilling characteristics of the lead. Zinc can be hard and brittle and its brittleness is not uniform within the metal. Your drill starts OK, then hits a hard spot and breaks. Again, it is almost impossible to remove a broken-off tip from the metal. Use a new, sharp drill. Keep drill speed high and feed with a push in lightly, pull back a little motion until the hole is at the required depth. Keep lubricant flowing over the drill hole to reduce drill breakage. Assemble the tender first since you will need it for electrical pickup. The tender is white metal and square so it is easier to begin learning the idiosyncrasies of machining. Paint the insulated side of each of the tender trucks on the bottom any bright color so you can easily see if the trucks have been turned or reversed and are creating a short. When you assemble the tender frame, use plastic tubing and washers to create insulated bushings for the tender truck screw to electrically isolate the tender trucks from the body. Feed an insulated wire from the truck screws to the loco for power. Use a micro miniature plugs to make the electrical connection between loco and tender as you will be connecting and disconnecting numerous times during the assembly for testing. An electrically neutral tender shell can be coupled prototypically closer to the loco without shorting. Also, you can make the fireman's apron or floor plate out of brass without sparks! The metal tender coupler will not be an electrical conductor either, and you can couple onto brass cars with no arcing. The other guys are giving good advice about assembling the wheels and making sure they are very free rolling. Don't put the valve gear on until the siderods and connecting rods work flawlessly. At this stage, assemble with the motor and run for a bit. Remove the motor to fit the valve gear. Check each side independently for free rolling characteristics before checking them together. I always use the tender that comes with the kit, but I understand that it is the wrong one. I'm not sure where you can get the right one. Perhaps Bruce Smith will know. He is very knowledgeable of the prototype. If you need anything else, just ask. Have fun! Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 8:43 PM Subject: Re: Bowser question, was Re: [PRR] Bowser Boilers > Lew: > I'd like to hear what you think of the Bowser G5 kit. I am a LIRR fan > and would consider purchasing one or two if I can make them look as good > as my GEM brass model. I've never drilled a metal boiler or installed > detail fittings, but the G5 is a "love object" of mine, and I'd like to > not only own one, but support Bowser's line as well. > > Dick > > Richard Glueck > Peace of the Planet Farm > Winterport, Maine > > "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside a > dog, it's too dark to read." - Groucho > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 09:29:51 -0500 From: Jim Cleveland Subject: [PRR] Looking for info/photos of the PRR Rochester NY branch Specifically for photos of steam or diesel trains/consists taken in the Southern Tier of NY (Nunda, Portageville, Belfast, et al). It's of great interest to me, as I live next to the abandoned railroad bed. Thanks. Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 10:45:02 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Staging Lighting From: Jerry Britton I asked this of the LDSIG list and got only one response! I have a staging area that is underneath the main level. It won't be used for switching or fiddling, just parking trains. During maintenance periods, temporary lighting (e.g. Trouble light) can be used. During op sessions I expect to keep this level either dark or dimmed. That said, has anyone tried to light such an area using the Christmas lights that come in a string where the bulbs are arranged end-to-end and are inside a clear plastic (flexible) tube? They come in like 40' lengths and I am thinking they "might" be enough light for this purpose. They also would be low voltage and low heat. Anyone try this? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 10:52:47 -0500 (EST) From: Will Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Staging Lighting Jerry Our club uses normal xmas lights in hidden staging areas....just a string of them cool white mini lights....work great and can be tacked under the benchwork so you only see the light and not the bulbs/wires Will Semanchuk-Enser Blue Moon Internet Corp General Manager www.bluemoon.net Internet Access & Web Hosting www.railfan.net Railfan Network Services On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Jerry Britton wrote: >I asked this of the LDSIG list and got only one response! > >I have a staging area that is underneath the main level. It won't be used >for switching or fiddling, just parking trains. > >During maintenance periods, temporary lighting (e.g. Trouble light) can be >used. > >During op sessions I expect to keep this level either dark or dimmed. > >That said, has anyone tried to light such an area using the Christmas lights >that come in a string where the bulbs are arranged end-to-end and are inside >a clear plastic (flexible) tube? They come in like 40' lengths and I am >thinking they "might" be enough light for this purpose. They also would be >low voltage and low heat. > >Anyone try this? >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:39:33 -0500 From: Zak Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Staging Lighting You give no specifics of how your staging area is enclosed, so I'm only going to offer a word of caution, as I deal with 'puters a bit. Even though your proposed lighting has low wattage and (initially) low heat, you must insure that there is proper ventilation in that staging area. If there isn't enough airflow, you'll get a heat buildup if the lights are on long enough, which may be dangerous. One alternative I can offer is using a low wattage florescent light and fixture, like those used over a kitchen sink. Just my 2-cents. Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 10:45 AM Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Staging Lighting > I asked this of the LDSIG list and got only one response! > > I have a staging area that is underneath the main level. It won't be used > for switching or fiddling, just parking trains. > > During maintenance periods, temporary lighting (e.g. Trouble light) can be > used. > > During op sessions I expect to keep this level either dark or dimmed. > > That said, has anyone tried to light such an area using the Christmas lights > that come in a string where the bulbs are arranged end-to-end and are inside > a clear plastic (flexible) tube? They come in like 40' lengths and I am > thinking they "might" be enough light for this purpose. They also would be > low voltage and low heat. > > Anyone try this? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:43:55 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Staging Lighting Jerry: The Steigel Valley club (Manheim) uses the normal minil cool white lights with very good results. I haven't seen the ones you described. There is plenty of light with the mini lights... Also, they should be on sale after Christmas at Walmart, Kmart, CVS, etc. for about 75% to 90% off... Jeff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:13:01 -0600 From: Chuck Bowman Subject: [PRR] Helix Humper Motors I'm also interested it what someone said in the past two days re the quality of the Helix Humper motors - namely that they are cheap three-pole motors. Has something changed recently? Can anyone verify the nature andquality of the current motors supplied in this line? chuck Charles H. Bowman Phone 979-690-7095 Lah Lah Farm Fax 979-690-8069 13350 Hopes Creek Road Cell 979-587-1386 College Station TX 77845-9250 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] TANGENT - Staging Lighting Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 12:27:29 -0500 Jerry, What you are describing sounds like "Tivoli" type lights. The Casino's down here use them all the time for accent lights (chasers, flashers, etc.) I believe they come in various wattages as well as variable so you can control the brightness. you can also paint the tube to block out lights if you desire. Don't now the price, but they are very reliable and long lasting. Sounds like a good choice. Reguards, Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 10:45 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Staging Lighting I asked this of the LDSIG list and got only one response! I have a staging area that is underneath the main level. It won't be used for switching or fiddling, just parking trains. During maintenance periods, temporary lighting (e.g. Trouble light) can be used. During op sessions I expect to keep this level either dark or dimmed. That said, has anyone tried to light such an area using the Christmas lights that come in a string where the bulbs are arranged end-to-end and are inside a clear plastic (flexible) tube? They come in like 40' lengths and I am thinking they "might" be enough light for this purpose. They also would be low voltage and low heat. Anyone try this? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Walthers 60-foot Boxcars Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:24:21 +0000 PRR Listers: I was looking at a Walthers 60-foot Pullman Standard boxcar the other day. It was the single, sliding door version. This car appears to resemble the PRR X-61 boxcar. Has anyone done a review of this car to confirm its accuracy for an X-61? TIA Ted Andrews _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] PRR memories Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 18:46:25 +0000 Merry Christmas to everyone. May your favorite seasonal memory of the PRR bring you some happiness this season. Norm bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 14:02:25 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR memories From: Jerry Britton On 12/19/02 1:46 PM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > Merry Christmas to everyone. May your favorite seasonal memory of the PRR > bring you some happiness this season. Best wishes to all as well! Yes, it's that time of year when I -- for my son -- get out the K-line train for under the tree. You know, the F7's painted for freight service pulling the PRR passenger train, complete with vista dome. Yikes! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR memories Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 13:30:34 -0600 List, Ya just have to have da train under the tree this time of year. And yes, PRR is my favorite "flavor" of train. Happy Holidays Pete Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 11:54:11 -0800 (PST) From: Chris Sawicki Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Staging Lighting Jerry- I saw strings of Christmas lights used over lower deck staging on Harry Daniels huge layout on the Houston layout tour. It was effective and like you said, no heat build up. --- Jerry Britton wrote: > I asked this of the LDSIG list and got only one > response! > > I have a staging area that is underneath the main > level. It won't be used > for switching or fiddling, just parking trains. > > During maintenance periods, temporary lighting (e.g. > Trouble light) can be > used. > > During op sessions I expect to keep this level > either dark or dimmed. > > That said, has anyone tried to light such an area > using the Christmas lights > that come in a string where the bulbs are arranged > end-to-end and are inside > a clear plastic (flexible) tube? They come in like > 40' lengths and I am > thinking they "might" be enough light for this > purpose. They also would be > low voltage and low heat. > > Anyone try this? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N > Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" > mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] Greetings Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 14:55:40 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C2A76E.B2850B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am a Retired Military Man (BMCM E-9) USCG and I am retired off the = Railroad having started Firing on the old PT Div. Phila. Pa. 1948 and = then went into the CG. Have worked on the Frisco and MD & DE RR also. I am looking for an EMT TT for the Delmarva Div. to borrow. for article = I am writing for the Keystome magazine about the DM&V Secondary line = from Harrington, DE. to Franklin City, VA. ------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C2A76E.B2850B60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am a Retired Military Man (BMCM E-9)   USCG and I am = retired=20 off the Railroad having started Firing on the old PT Div. Phila. Pa. = 1948 and=20 then went into the CG. Have worked on the Frisco and MD & DE RR = also.
 
I am looking for an EMT TT for the Delmarva Div. to borrow. for = article I=20 am writing for the Keystome magazine about the DM&V Secondary line = from=20 Harrington, DE. to Franklin City, VA.
------=_NextPart_000_004A_01C2A76E.B2850B60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 15:18:35 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Staging Lighting > Jerry- I saw strings of Christmas lights used over > lower deck staging on Harry Daniels huge layout on the > Houston layout tour. It was effective and like you > said, no heat build up. My first thought was of the Rope Lights, Which was where 'this' started. Another possibility might be: holiday microlights, cut into suitable sublengths, would run off the 12VAC bulk supply commonly found. Or other bulk supply, rather than running 110VAC... Cautions re heat are valid, this can sneak up: unless the lamps are Really Sealed In, likely not a problem. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:37:54 -0400 From: A Samostie Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR memories Dear Group, Absoulutely, gotta have the 18" radius snap-track circle under the Christmas tree... no kids or grandkids required! But, if you got 'em, it's never never too early to start them with a love of trains. Blame my dad for all this... got my start in railroading with two Penn Central F units and a string of freight cars. (Penn Central was a "new" railroad back then). Of course, at age 3, it was more fun to cause derailments than prevent them. Merry Everything, Alan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 18:56:49 -0500 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] PRR memories This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_ulveXmAIoZxYUBTaNJmWOg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Dear List, My own kids are gone here and yon, and I have no grandkids, but I still remember the X-Mas when my Father first stuck a Lionel 027 set under the tree. I guess I was four or five. That was about '51 or '52....but I must be wrong as I'm only "39" now! ;-) I remember thinking that he must have got it from where he worked - the PRR - and brought it home. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all. Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." --Boundary_(ID_ulveXmAIoZxYUBTaNJmWOg) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Dear List,
 
My own kids are gone here and yon, and I have no grandkids, but I still remember the X-Mas when my Father first stuck a Lionel 027 set under the tree.  I guess I was four or five.
 
That was about '51 or '52....but I must be wrong as I'm only "39" now!  ;-)
 
I remember thinking that he must have got it from where he worked - the PRR - and brought it home.
 
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all.
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail."
 
--Boundary_(ID_ulveXmAIoZxYUBTaNJmWOg)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Al Buchan Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:17:15 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR publicty photos PRR friends, I received an email today from friend and contributing editor to "Classic Trains" magazine, John Gruber, asking for assistance on an article he is putting together about PRR publicity photos and photography. His message is below. Can anyone here assist John or know of some sources he might tap into. I suggest that you contact John directly at jgruber@execpc.com Thanx. Al ======================================= Al, I have done a fair amount of research for an article on PRR publicity photos and photography. So far, I have not been able to find anything about the people photos in the Beebe/Clegg book, "The Trains We Rode," volume one. These include photos, attributed to the Pennsylvania Railroad, on pages 558 (also in the Mutual Magazine, June 1924), 575, and 621. Might anyone in your organization be familiar with these publicity photos? John Gruber "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:17:15 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] PRR publicty photos PRR friends, I received an email today from friend and contributing editor to "Classic Trains" magazine, John Gruber, asking for assistance on an article he is putting together about PRR publicity photos and photography. His message is below. Can anyone here assist John or know of some sources he might tap into. I suggest that you contact John directly at jgruber@execpc.com Thanx. Al ======================================= Al, I have done a fair amount of research for an article on PRR publicity photos and photography. So far, I have not been able to find anything about the people photos in the Beebe/Clegg book, "The Trains We Rode," volume one. These include photos, attributed to the Pennsylvania Railroad, on pages 558 (also in the Mutual Magazine, June 1924), 575, and 621. Might anyone in your organization be familiar with these publicity photos? John Gruber ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: [PRR] PRR memories Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:18:13 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C2A79B.C1C41DA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Season's Greetings, My mother bought my Dad the set that I have now in December 1945, a = couple of weeks before I was born. They were living with my maternal = grandparents and when my dad set up the set, plugged it in and turned it = on, all the lights in the neighborhood went out, to the absolute delight = of my grandfather. They found out later that a reveler had crashed into = a utiity pole and caused the outage. My Dad gave me the set when I was three. They were MY trains and my four = sisters were envious. To this day they cannot figure out how I knew that = they had run the trains when I was out of the house. And, ... I'm not = sure I ever will tell them. However, I have made some amends. I gave = each of them a custom assembled set in HO about 10 years ago. I am = currently assembling a set for my neice's son for his first Christmas. Have a great holiday! >From frosty New Hampshire, Tom Mahon ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C2A79B.C1C41DA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Season's Greetings,
 
My mother bought my Dad the set that I = have now in=20 December 1945, a couple of weeks before I was born. They were = living with=20 my maternal grandparents and when my dad set up the set, plugged it in = and=20 turned it on, all the lights in the neighborhood went out, to the = absolute=20 delight of my grandfather. They found out later that a reveler had = crashed into=20 a utiity pole and caused the outage.
 
My Dad gave me the set when I was = three. They were=20 MY trains and my four sisters were envious. To this day they cannot = figure out=20 how I knew that they had run the trains when I was out of the house. = And, ...=20 I'm not sure I ever will tell them. However, I have made some amends. I = gave=20 each of them a custom assembled set in HO about 10 years ago. I am = currently=20 assembling a set for my neice's son for his first = Christmas.
 
Have a great holiday!
 
From frosty New Hampshire,
 
Tom Mahon
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C2A79B.C1C41DA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 20:42:38 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR memories Greetings to Norm, Jerry and the List: Getting Lionel PRR S2 turbine 681 at age 5 for Christmas 1955, with a tender lettered PENNSYLVANIA instead of LIONEL LINES. Knowing, even at that age, that the red keystone with gold trim on the front of my engine was the same detail in miniature as those I saw on M1s going past Lewistown station. Dan Cupper ============================================================ ...And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flock by night. An angel of the Lord appeared to them and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy ... Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ the Lord." -- Luke 2:8-11 ============================================================ ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > Merry Christmas to everyone. May your favorite seasonal memory of the PRR > bring you some happiness this season. Norm bell > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR memories Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 19:47:36 -0600 Hi All! I would like to add my "Merry Everything" to this. As for derailments, another kid and I would get together with 2 locos and run them into each other and smash them. That's how I got a BIG whipping! The loco broke, and never ran again. Lionel Zamak! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----- Original Message ----- From: "A Samostie" To: Sent: Thursday, 19 December, 2002 05:37 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR memories > > Dear Group, > > Absoulutely, gotta have the 18" radius snap-track circle under the > Christmas tree... no kids or grandkids required! But, if you got 'em, > it's never never too early to start them with a love of trains. > > Blame my dad for all this... got my start in railroading with two Penn > Central F units and a string of freight cars. (Penn Central was a "new" > railroad back then). Of course, at age 3, it was more fun to cause > derailments than prevent them. > > Merry Everything, > Alan > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR memories Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 02:07:09 +0000 DAN - Thank you very much for the kind seasonal thoughts. And for reminding us of what this season is really all about. May He be with you and all this list for this season and all time. HANK > Greetings to Norm, Jerry and the List: > > > Getting Lionel PRR S2 turbine 681 at age 5 for Christmas 1955, with a > tender lettered PENNSYLVANIA instead of LIONEL LINES. Knowing, even at > that age, that the red keystone with gold trim on the front of my engine > was the same detail in miniature as those I saw on M1s going past > Lewistown station. > > Dan Cupper > > ============================================================ > ...And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping > watch over their flock by night. An angel of the Lord appeared to them > and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. > But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of > great joy ... Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; > he is Christ the Lord." > -- Luke 2:8-11 > ============================================================ > > ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > > > Merry Christmas to everyone. May your favorite seasonal memory of the PRR > > bring you some happiness this season. Norm bell > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR memories Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 21:24:30 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00CF_01C2A7A5.04996780 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ho, Ho, Ho: I got an American Flyer K4s with three freight cars and a caboose for = Christmas when I was 5. I can still smell the "smoke" as it chuffed its = way around the oval of track. My grandson, who is two, will be getting = a Thomas the Tank engine wooden push train with wood track. The kid is = getting this because he always makes a bee-line to any Thomas trains. = At the store last week, he was pushing this Thomas around and making a = choo-choo sound. No one told him steam engines make that sound, he just = came up with it spontaneously! Merry Christmas ------=_NextPart_000_00CF_01C2A7A5.04996780 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ho, Ho, Ho:
 
I got an American Flyer K4s with three = freight cars=20 and a caboose for Christmas when I was 5.  I can still smell the = "smoke" as=20 it chuffed its way around the oval of track.  My grandson, who is = two, will=20 be getting a Thomas the Tank engine wooden push train with wood = track.  The=20 kid is getting this because he always makes a bee-line to any Thomas=20 trains.  At the store last week, he was pushing this Thomas around = and=20 making a choo-choo sound.  No one told him steam engines make that = sound,=20 he just came up with it spontaneously!
 
Merry Christmas
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_00CF_01C2A7A5.04996780-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 21:35:24 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR (LIRR) Memories From: aurora7@juno.com Not a Christmas memory, but worthy of it - Sitting with my big brother in a section of unused concrete sewer pipe, trackside in Mineola, watching the last few commuter runs being pulled by G5's on their way into Jamaica. My brother would buy us Hostess chocolate cupcakes, 2 for 10 cents, and we ate like kings! Of course, 10 cents was worth something in 1954! One of my best memories of too many years past. My best holiday wishes to all PRR group contributers! Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society." -Mark Twain ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Yesteryear-InterMountain C.F.Simonin tank car Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 21:49:42 -0500 Lists, Have y'all seen the new Intermountain special run tank car from Yesteryear Models of the orange and black C. F. Simonin Sons Vegetable Oil, Philadelphia, PA, cars? A good PRR customer - and one of the "Sons", Charlie Simonin, was in the PRR Sales Department in Philadelphia. PRR had a habit of hiring offspring of major customers' major stockholders. Anyhow, here's an attractive car with PRR ties. I picked up my N scale car from Wig Wag Trains LLC. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 21:50:29 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR memories This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_BIuvyPqJUWTCkxl56jl83Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Lew, I think maybe your grandson has been sneaking peaks at your steam videos. ;^ ) Dan, Thanx for the memories. I also got the Lionel class S2 complete with work/wreck train - side dump, flat w/ pipe, wreck derrick and idler car. All set up hidden under the couch. I was into MW operations even back then. I never made the connection to now, but maybe that's why I ended up in the PRR MW department. ;^ ) Great scripture also Dan, thanx. Al <>< --Boundary_(ID_BIuvyPqJUWTCkxl56jl83Q) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Lew,
 
I think maybe your grandson has been sneaking peaks at your steam videos. ;^ )
 
 
Dan,
 
Thanx for the memories. I also got the Lionel class S2 complete with work/wreck train - side dump, flat w/ pipe, wreck derrick and idler car. All set up hidden under the couch. I was into MW operations even back then. I never made the connection to now, but maybe that's why I ended up in the PRR MW department. ;^ )
 
Great scripture also Dan, thanx.
 
 
Al  <><
--Boundary_(ID_BIuvyPqJUWTCkxl56jl83Q)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:19:09 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR memories --part1_1a9.e0570a5.2b33e62d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/19/2002 9:40:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, lmatt@alltel.net writes: > I got an American Flyer K4s with three freight cars and a caboose for > Hate to be a "rivet counter" to your memory, but the American Flyer PRR Pacific was based on the K5. Ours was purchased c. 1950, and in was still stored in its original corrugated cardboard roll when it was destroyed in a flood while in use for a second generation, c. 1970. I remember a major project of replacing the original hook couplers with knuckles sometime in the late 1950's, so that newer cars could be added to the by then rather large collection. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_1a9.e0570a5.2b33e62d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/19/2002 9:40:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, lmatt@alltel.net writes:


I got an American Flyer K4s with three freight cars and a caboose for Christmas when I was 5.


Hate to be a "rivet counter" to your memory, but the American Flyer PRR
Pacific was based on the K5. Ours was purchased c. 1950, and in was
still stored in its original corrugated cardboard roll when it was destroyed
in a flood while in use for a second generation, c. 1970. I remember a
major project of replacing the original hook couplers with knuckles sometime
in the late 1950's, so that newer cars could be added to the by then rather
large collection.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_1a9.e0570a5.2b33e62d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 22:23:04 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: TANGENT - Staging Lighting Jerry, I used this type lighting for the same thing: a four track staging yard in O scale. The overhead structure is about a foot to sixteen inches above the staging yard. Assuming we are talking about the same thing...I like it very much. Can't remember the brand name - I may have the literature, if I can find it. Mine is full 120 volts, with each 16 inch length of bulbs a string in series, then the next 16 inches, etc. The plastic tubing is fairly heavy and stiff, so it is not a flimsy assembly. It definitely provides plenty of light. It is sold in packaged lengths and in bulk by the foot. Steve Bartlett Jerry Britton wrote: .... That said, has anyone tried to light such an area using the Christmas lights that come in a string where the bulbs are arranged end-to-end and are inside a clear plastic (flexible) tube? They come in like 40' lengths and I am thinking they "might" be enough light for this purpose. They also would be low voltage and low heat. Anyone try this? Jerry Britton, SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 23:09:58 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Greetings On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, edmund burbage wrote: > I am looking for an EMT TT for the Delmarva Div. to borrow. for article > I am writing for the Keystome magazine about the DM&V Secondary line > from Harrington, DE. to Franklin City, VA. What year? There are at least 2 for download at http://prr.dementia.org/documents/documents.html if you can handle PDF. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 23:40:09 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Grogan, the Sandusky Branch, and the "Shawnee" In a message dated 12/18/02 6:08:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 05:51:20 -0000 > From: "thirdbird1 " > Subject: Re: Columbus Yards was: Prisons and the Pennsy > > I can tell you that the connection tracks to the N&W from Grogan were > called Pennor and came out onto the N&W near the east end of Joyce > Avenue Yard, (JO) just west of the bridge over the B&O-PRR > (Panhandle). Was Pennor just bypass tracks around Joyce Avenue Yard, was it a relay yard, or did any switching go on there? If a relay yard, I assume this is where N& W dropped trains for the Pennsy, with Grogan later doing any classification necessary. > Also, it's interesting to know that the railroad map changed in the > area of the fairgrounds sometime during the first couple of decades > of the last century. I've been told that the PRR once went up the > east side of the fairgrounds and curved around to it's present > alignment, somewhere in the area of the state highway garage that may > still be located in the southeast corner of the fairgrounds. > > Dave > Dave, I can confirm that in 1893, that antique alignment was still in. A map of Columbus facilities put out by the N&W shows a Columbus, Shawnee, and Hocking RR (later T&OC/NYC) that crossed the Pennsy out at East Columbus and worked its way westward along the north side of what we recognize as N&W's Joyce Avenue Yard. Its terminal, paralleling Joyce Avenue, is what we call Pennor. On this map the CS&H (the Shawnee, not to be confused with the C&O's Hocking Valley RR) ends up against the PRR Akron Branch (Cleveland Akron & Columbus). On the west side of the Akron Branch is the terminal of the "Sandusky Short Line", and the two terminals lie end to end across the Akron. This track layout (and the fact these two roads are in a different color than anything else on the map) confirm that the two roads were under common control in 1893 -- and not part of the Pennsy System at the time. Further research in CS&H timetables and in Mundy's and other financial references confirms this. When we examine the Sandusky Short Line on this map, we find that its yards do not extend as far to the west as Grogan later will, and that the main trickles north through property that may not yet be the Ohio State Fairgrounds. Also, this 1893 SSL yard is crossed by a number of neighborhood streets, and has an engine terminal (roundhouse) on its northwest corner. We can see that the Big Four is already in place on the west side of the Fairgrounds. BTW, the CCC&StL or Big 4, a longtime NYCS affiliate, goes up through Delaware Ohio and meets its Indianapolis main at Burt Tower, Galion OH. This B4 line carried Cincinnati and Columbus traffic up toward Cleveland, in competition with the Pennsy's Akron Branch, but over a much flatter profile. The above is fact. I'd like to know more, but what follows is not completely confirmed: 1. I think in 1893, the CS&H was hauling coal out of the Zanesville area and handing it over to the Sandusky Short Line to go to Lake Erie. Around that time, the CS&H public timetable included passenger trains of both roads, but the trip was always broken at Columbus (presumably Columbus Union Depot). 2, 1893 is one of those years where boom turned to bust. I think within three years, the CS&H found itself in deep financial trouble and not only lost the Sandusky Short LIne but may itself have been partially dismembered. 3. When the Sandusky Short Line was picked up by the Pennsy, it became the natural outlet for N&W coal. It was simple to connect the Sandusky Short Line's main with the west end of Joyce Avenue. But N&W trains soon became too long for the SSL's puny yard to receive or relay, so Grogan Yard was built (year pretty vague; a good guess is between 1896 and 1916). This involved not only a longer yard, but significant elevation to keep from cutting off all the neighborhood's streets. 4. Grogan Yard was now too long for Sandusky Branch trains to go north through the fairgrounds. The new yard's west end curved north only as it approached the Big Four. However, there wasn't land available to go north along the Big Four, and so the reinforced concrete trestlework was built OVER the west edge of the Ohio State Fairgrounds. Approximately at the north end of the fairgrounds, the Sandusky Branch rejoined its original right of way. 5. Presumably the former main through the fairgrounds was cut off or became an industrial track. When I was a small child, I saw an Ohio Railroads display standing on this track during the Ohio State Fair. And maps of later periods do show track still diagonal across the area. 6. Incidentally, I believe all the "elevation" work at Grogan and along the Fairgrounds actually reduced grades, as ground level is lower to the west as you approach the valley of the Olentangy River (a Scioto tributary). The elevation of the yard and Fairgrounds viaduct flatten this out. 7. This left the Columbus Shawnee & Hocking with no friendly connections in Columbus. It's possible they couldn't even negotiate trackage rights on anybody's line to reach Columbus Union Station. All in all, the Shawnee line that came up Columbus' east side and ended at (or parallel to) Pennor was almost useless. The remaining CS&H track around eastern Columbus became an industrial branch line, and by the time I saw it in late Sixties was in poor condition. 8. What eventually happened (when the CS&H was absorbed into the Toledo & Ohio Central camp) is that a new entry to Columbus was built around the south side and up the Scioto River. Rather than use Columbus Union Station, the T& OC built its own rather ornate station (1906?) west of downtown Columbus. This became the T&OC's Western Branch, crossing PRR's Little Miami at Scioto Tower, and eventually meeting the older Eastern Branch at Stanley Yard in Toledo. Like the old CS&H, the T&OC was a coal powerhouse, moving Ohio and West Virginia coal through Columbus to Lake Erie in competition with the PRR's Sandusky Branch and with a double track extension of the C&O/Hocking Valley. 9. One thing I wish historians would explain to me is, with this part of Ohio a hotbed of Big 4 activity, how did the Toledo & Ohio Central come under control of the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern? Sure, they all became "New York Central Lines", but even though under Vanderbilt ownership, did they also act as competitors? 10. Another story we need is why most of the PRR lines around Columbus were early consolidated into the Panhandle, but the Cleveland Akron & Columbus stayed separate until the Pennsylvania Ohio & Detroit "last garbage collection" consolidation of the mid twenties? Let's finish up with some better-established facts: 1. The Sandusky Branch became part of the N&W when they merged the Nickel Plate, Wabash, etc. in 1964. It has continued to be an example of Big Coal, putting on a great show for lineside railfans in Columbus and up in Marion OH, where it and the C&O (both double track) crossed the combined Erie and Big Four "Bee Line" (Cleveland to St. Louis. 2. Apparently, there has always been questions about "Where's Grogan Yard?" Pennsy yards in Columbus were many, because no less than five ancestors met there (a good subject for another posting). Grogan must have been the least known -- for one thing, no passenger trains have run up its line for many years. It should have been a magnet for fans during the "Atcheson Topeka & Ohio" year of leased Santa Fe Texans, but even then the power left it and went down to St. Clair Avenue for service -- that's where we see all the Phil Hastings shots, the movies, etc. I figure this St. Clair Avenue photo location was inevitable -- not only was it the main PRR engine facility in town, but also it was on the north edge of downtown's street grid, and easy to find. Why look for Grogan when the steam engines were parked right in front of you? The confusion among fans was only increased in the Nineties when the late Ted Rose (bless him) painted the concrete coaling tower at St. Clair Avenue and mistakenly named the picture "Grogan Yard". It's my favorite Rose watercolor, but inevitably fans will be mistakenly calling this spot "Grogan" well into this century. Incidentally, I notice that questions about Grogan Yard crop up on one list or another about every 6 months. I'm not sure why. Someday someone will write a book on the railroads in Columbus, with decent maps showing their evolution and period pix of the goodies that used to run there. In the meantime, we will have to make do with the standard two pictures per color book (usually one of them miscaptioned), and no maps. A challenge -- what Pennsy maps and track charts of the Columbus area are extant? I'm probably going to try modeling from about US Tower west through Columbus Union Depot, and would like to find out just how much trouble I'm in. Of course, I'd love to model from St. Clair Avenue shops west, but basements just don't come that big, not even in Louisville. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 23:40:09 EST Subject: [PRR] Grogan, the Sandusky Branch, and the "Shawnee" --part1_136.1830dd83.2b33f929_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/18/02 6:08:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 05:51:20 -0000 > From: "thirdbird1 " > Subject: Re: Columbus Yards was: Prisons and the Pennsy > > I can tell you that the connection tracks to the N&W from Grogan were > called Pennor and came out onto the N&W near the east end of Joyce > Avenue Yard, (JO) just west of the bridge over the B&O-PRR > (Panhandle). Was Pennor just bypass tracks around Joyce Avenue Yard, was it a relay yard, or did any switching go on there? If a relay yard, I assume this is where N& W dropped trains for the Pennsy, with Grogan later doing any classification necessary. > Also, it's interesting to know that the railroad map changed in the > area of the fairgrounds sometime during the first couple of decades > of the last century. I've been told that the PRR once went up the > east side of the fairgrounds and curved around to it's present > alignment, somewhere in the area of the state highway garage that may > still be located in the southeast corner of the fairgrounds. > > Dave > Dave, I can confirm that in 1893, that antique alignment was still in. A map of Columbus facilities put out by the N&W shows a Columbus, Shawnee, and Hocking RR (later T&OC/NYC) that crossed the Pennsy out at East Columbus and worked its way westward along the north side of what we recognize as N&W's Joyce Avenue Yard. Its terminal, paralleling Joyce Avenue, is what we call Pennor. On this map the CS&H (the Shawnee, not to be confused with the C&O's Hocking Valley RR) ends up against the PRR Akron Branch (Cleveland Akron & Columbus). On the west side of the Akron Branch is the terminal of the "Sandusky Short Line", and the two terminals lie end to end across the Akron. This track layout (and the fact these two roads are in a different color than anything else on the map) confirm that the two roads were under common control in 1893 -- and not part of the Pennsy System at the time. Further research in CS&H timetables and in Mundy's and other financial references confirms this. When we examine the Sandusky Short Line on this map, we find that its yards do not extend as far to the west as Grogan later will, and that the main trickles north through property that may not yet be the Ohio State Fairgrounds. Also, this 1893 SSL yard is crossed by a number of neighborhood streets, and has an engine terminal (roundhouse) on its northwest corner. We can see that the Big Four is already in place on the west side of the Fairgrounds. BTW, the CCC&StL or Big 4, a longtime NYCS affiliate, goes up through Delaware Ohio and meets its Indianapolis main at Burt Tower, Galion OH. This B4 line carried Cincinnati and Columbus traffic up toward Cleveland, in competition with the Pennsy's Akron Branch, but over a much flatter profile. The above is fact. I'd like to know more, but what follows is not completely confirmed: 1. I think in 1893, the CS&H was hauling coal out of the Zanesville area and handing it over to the Sandusky Short Line to go to Lake Erie. Around that time, the CS&H public timetable included passenger trains of both roads, but the trip was always broken at Columbus (presumably Columbus Union Depot). 2, 1893 is one of those years where boom turned to bust. I think within three years, the CS&H found itself in deep financial trouble and not only lost the Sandusky Short LIne but may itself have been partially dismembered. 3. When the Sandusky Short Line was picked up by the Pennsy, it became the natural outlet for N&W coal. It was simple to connect the Sandusky Short Line's main with the west end of Joyce Avenue. But N&W trains soon became too long for the SSL's puny yard to receive or relay, so Grogan Yard was built (year pretty vague; a good guess is between 1896 and 1916). This involved not only a longer yard, but significant elevation to keep from cutting off all the neighborhood's streets. 4. Grogan Yard was now too long for Sandusky Branch trains to go north through the fairgrounds. The new yard's west end curved north only as it approached the Big Four. However, there wasn't land available to go north along the Big Four, and so the reinforced concrete trestlework was built OVER the west edge of the Ohio State Fairgrounds. Approximately at the north end of the fairgrounds, the Sandusky Branch rejoined its original right of way. 5. Presumably the former main through the fairgrounds was cut off or became an industrial track. When I was a small child, I saw an Ohio Railroads display standing on this track during the Ohio State Fair. And maps of later periods do show track still diagonal across the area. 6. Incidentally, I believe all the "elevation" work at Grogan and along the Fairgrounds actually reduced grades, as ground level is lower to the west as you approach the valley of the Olentangy River (a Scioto tributary). The elevation of the yard and Fairgrounds viaduct flatten this out. 7. This left the Columbus Shawnee & Hocking with no friendly connections in Columbus. It's possible they couldn't even negotiate trackage rights on anybody's line to reach Columbus Union Station. All in all, the Shawnee line that came up Columbus' east side and ended at (or parallel to) Pennor was almost useless. The remaining CS&H track around eastern Columbus became an industrial branch line, and by the time I saw it in late Sixties was in poor condition. 8. What eventually happened (when the CS&H was absorbed into the Toledo & Ohio Central camp) is that a new entry to Columbus was built around the south side and up the Scioto River. Rather than use Columbus Union Station, the T& OC built its own rather ornate station (1906?) west of downtown Columbus. This became the T&OC's Western Branch, crossing PRR's Little Miami at Scioto Tower, and eventually meeting the older Eastern Branch at Stanley Yard in Toledo. Like the old CS&H, the T&OC was a coal powerhouse, moving Ohio and West Virginia coal through Columbus to Lake Erie in competition with the PRR's Sandusky Branch and with a double track extension of the C&O/Hocking Valley. 9. One thing I wish historians would explain to me is, with this part of Ohio a hotbed of Big 4 activity, how did the Toledo & Ohio Central come under control of the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern? Sure, they all became "New York Central Lines", but even though under Vanderbilt ownership, did they also act as competitors? 10. Another story we need is why most of the PRR lines around Columbus were early consolidated into the Panhandle, but the Cleveland Akron & Columbus stayed separate until the Pennsylvania Ohio & Detroit "last garbage collection" consolidation of the mid twenties? Let's finish up with some better-established facts: 1. The Sandusky Branch became part of the N&W when they merged the Nickel Plate, Wabash, etc. in 1964. It has continued to be an example of Big Coal, putting on a great show for lineside railfans in Columbus and up in Marion OH, where it and the C&O (both double track) crossed the combined Erie and Big Four "Bee Line" (Cleveland to St. Louis. 2. Apparently, there has always been questions about "Where's Grogan Yard?" Pennsy yards in Columbus were many, because no less than five ancestors met there (a good subject for another posting). Grogan must have been the least known -- for one thing, no passenger trains have run up its line for many years. It should have been a magnet for fans during the "Atcheson Topeka & Ohio" year of leased Santa Fe Texans, but even then the power left it and went down to St. Clair Avenue for service -- that's where we see all the Phil Hastings shots, the movies, etc. I figure this St. Clair Avenue photo location was inevitable -- not only was it the main PRR engine facility in town, but also it was on the north edge of downtown's street grid, and easy to find. Why look for Grogan when the steam engines were parked right in front of you? The confusion among fans was only increased in the Nineties when the late Ted Rose (bless him) painted the concrete coaling tower at St. Clair Avenue and mistakenly named the picture "Grogan Yard". It's my favorite Rose watercolor, but inevitably fans will be mistakenly calling this spot "Grogan" well into this century. Incidentally, I notice that questions about Grogan Yard crop up on one list or another about every 6 months. I'm not sure why. Someday someone will write a book on the railroads in Columbus, with decent maps showing their evolution and period pix of the goodies that used to run there. In the meantime, we will have to make do with the standard two pictures per color book (usually one of them miscaptioned), and no maps. A challenge -- what Pennsy maps and track charts of the Columbus area are extant? I'm probably going to try modeling from about US Tower west through Columbus Union Depot, and would like to find out just how much trouble I'm in. Of course, I'd love to model from St. Clair Avenue shops west, but basements just don't come that big, not even in Louisville. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_136.1830dd83.2b33f929_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/18/02 6:08:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 5
   Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 05:51:20 -0000
   From: "thirdbird1 <thirdbird1@msn.com>" <thirdbird1@msn.com>
Subject: Re: Columbus Yards was: Prisons and the Pennsy

I can tell you that the connection tracks to the N&W from Grogan were
called Pennor and came out onto the N&W near the east end of Joyce
Avenue Yard, (JO) just west of the bridge over the B&O-PRR
(Panhandle).


Was Pennor just bypass tracks around Joyce Avenue Yard, was it a relay yard, or did any switching go on there?  If a relay yard, I assume this is where N&W dropped trains for the Pennsy, with Grogan later doing any classification necessary.

Also, it's interesting to know that the railroad map changed in the
area of the fairgrounds sometime during the first couple of decades
of the last century.  I've been told that the PRR once went up the
east side of the fairgrounds and curved around to it's present
alignment, somewhere in the area of the state highway garage that may
still be located in the southeast corner of the fairgrounds.

Dave


Dave,

I can confirm that in 1893, that antique alignment was still in.  A map of Columbus facilities put out by the N&W shows a Columbus, Shawnee, and Hocking RR (later T&OC/NYC) that crossed the Pennsy out at East Columbus and worked its way westward along the north side of what we recognize as N&W's Joyce Avenue Yard.  Its terminal, paralleling Joyce Avenue, is what we call Pennor.

On this map the CS&H (the Shawnee, not to be confused with the C&O's Hocking Valley RR) ends up against the PRR Akron Branch (Cleveland Akron & Columbus).  On the west side of the Akron Branch is the terminal of the "Sandusky Short Line", and the two terminals lie end to end across the Akron.  This track layout (and the fact these two roads are in a different color than anything else on the map) confirm that the two roads were under common control in 1893 -- and not part of the Pennsy System at the time.  Further research in CS&H timetables and in Mundy's and other financial references confirms this.

When we examine the Sandusky Short Line on this map, we find that its yards do not extend as far to the west as Grogan later will, and that the main trickles north through property that may not yet be the Ohio State Fairgrounds.  Also, this 1893 SSL yard is crossed by a number of neighborhood streets, and has an engine terminal (roundhouse) on its northwest corner.  We can see that the Big Four is already in place on the west side of the Fairgrounds.  BTW, the CCC&StL or Big 4, a longtime NYCS affiliate, goes up through Delaware Ohio and meets its Indianapolis main at Burt Tower, Galion OH.  This B4 line carried Cincinnati and Columbus traffic up toward Cleveland, in competition with the Pennsy's Akron Branch, but over a much flatter profile.

The above is fact.  I'd like to know more, but what follows is not completely confirmed:

1.  I think in 1893, the CS&H was hauling coal out of the Zanesville area and handing it over to the Sandusky Short Line to go to Lake Erie.  Around that time, the CS&H public timetable included passenger trains of both roads, but the trip was always broken at Columbus (presumably Columbus Union Depot).

2,  1893 is one of those years where boom turned to bust.  I think within three years, the CS&H found itself in deep financial trouble and not only lost the Sandusky Short LIne but may itself have been partially dismembered.

3.   When the Sandusky Short Line was picked up by the Pennsy, it became the natural outlet for N&W coal.  It was simple to connect the Sandusky Short Line's main with the west end of Joyce Avenue.  But N&W trains soon became too long for the SSL's puny yard to receive or relay, so Grogan Yard was built (year pretty vague; a good guess is between 1896 and 1916).  This involved not only a longer yard, but significant elevation to keep from cutting off all the neighborhood's streets.

4.  Grogan Yard was now too long for Sandusky Branch trains to go north through the fairgrounds.  The new yard's west end curved north only as it approached the Big Four.  However, there wasn't land available to go north along the Big Four, and so the reinforced concrete trestlework was built OVER the west edge of the Ohio State Fairgrounds.  Approximately at the north end of the fairgrounds, the Sandusky Branch rejoined its original right of way. 

5.  Presumably the former main through the fairgrounds was cut off or became an industrial track.  When I was a small child, I saw an Ohio Railroads display standing on this track during the Ohio State Fair.  And maps of later periods do show track still diagonal across the area.

6.  Incidentally, I believe all the "elevation" work at Grogan and along the Fairgrounds actually reduced grades, as ground level is lower to the west as you approach the valley of the Olentangy River (a Scioto tributary).   The elevation of the yard and Fairgrounds viaduct flatten this out.

7.  This left the Columbus Shawnee & Hocking with no friendly connections in Columbus.  It's possible they couldn't even negotiate trackage rights on anybody's line to reach Columbus Union Station.  All in all, the Shawnee line that came up Columbus' east side and ended at (or parallel to) Pennor was almost useless.  The remaining CS&H track around eastern Columbus became an industrial branch line, and by the time I saw it in late Sixties was in poor condition.

8.  What eventually happened (when the  CS&H was absorbed into the Toledo & Ohio Central camp) is that a new entry to Columbus was built around the south side and up the Scioto River.  Rather than use Columbus Union Station, the T&OC built its own rather ornate station (1906?) west of downtown Columbus.  This became the T&OC's Western Branch, crossing PRR's Little Miami at Scioto Tower, and eventually meeting the older Eastern Branch at Stanley Yard in Toledo.  Like the old CS&H, the T&OC was a coal powerhouse, moving Ohio and West Virginia coal through Columbus to Lake Erie in competition with the PRR's Sandusky Branch and with a double track extension of the C&O/Hocking Valley.

9.  One thing I wish historians would explain to me is, with this part of Ohio a hotbed of Big 4 activity, how did the Toledo & Ohio Central come under control of the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern?  Sure, they all became "New York Central Lines", but even though under Vanderbilt ownership, did they also act as competitors?

10.  Another story we need is why most of the PRR lines around Columbus were early consolidated into the Panhandle, but the Cleveland Akron & Columbus stayed separate until the Pennsylvania Ohio & Detroit "last garbage collection" consolidation of the mid twenties?

Let's finish up with some better-established facts:

1.  The Sandusky Branch became part of the N&W when they merged the Nickel Plate, Wabash, etc. in 1964.  It has continued to be an example of Big Coal, putting on a great show for lineside railfans in Columbus and up in Marion OH, where it and the C&O (both double track) crossed the combined Erie and Big Four "Bee Line" (Cleveland to St. Louis.

2.  Apparently, there has always been questions about "Where's Grogan Yard?"  Pennsy yards in Columbus were many, because no less than five ancestors met there (a good subject for another posting).  Grogan must have been the least known -- for one thing, no passenger trains have run up its line for many years.  It should have been a magnet for fans during the "Atcheson Topeka & Ohio" year of leased Santa Fe Texans, but even then the power left it and went down to St. Clair Avenue for service -- that's where we see all the Phil Hastings shots, the movies, etc.  I figure this St. Clair Avenue photo location was inevitable -- not only was it the main PRR engine facility in town, but also it was on the north edge of downtown's street grid, and easy to find.  Why look for Grogan when the steam engines were parked right in front of you?

The confusion among fans was only increased in the Nineties when the late Ted Rose (bless him) painted the concrete coaling tower at St. Clair Avenue and mistakenly named the picture "Grogan Yard".  It's my favorite Rose watercolor, but inevitably fans will be mistakenly calling this spot "Grogan" well into this century.

Incidentally, I notice that questions about Grogan Yard crop up on one list or another about every 6 months.  I'm not sure why.

Someday someone will write a book on the railroads in Columbus, with decent maps showing their evolution and period pix of the goodies that used to run there.  In the meantime, we will have to make do with the standard two pictures per color book (usually one of them miscaptioned), and no maps.

A challenge -- what Pennsy maps and track charts of the Columbus area are extant?  I'm probably going to try modeling from about US Tower west through Columbus Union Depot, and would like to find out just how much trouble I'm in.  Of course, I'd love to model from St. Clair Avenue shops west, but basements just don't come that big, not even in Louisville.



                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_136.1830dd83.2b33f929_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "edmund burbage" Subject: [PRR] re: Don Barnes inquiry? Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 00:26:07 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C2A7BE.63F32860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was a Master Chief Boatswain Mate.(E-9) leeprrswitchkey@msn.com ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C2A7BE.63F32860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I was a Master Chief Boatswain Mate.(E-9)
 
leeprrswitchkey@msn.com
= ------=_NextPart_000_003E_01C2A7BE.63F32860-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 21:49:15 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] I've had no problems with Helix Humpers Chuck, list, I have had no problems with any of the Bowser repower kits (from ALCO or Alliance). Unlike Nick Kulp (and most of the folks on the list) my job precludes a layout at this time. I do have a test oval. I have run my repowered Bowser K4s with a dozen ECW & Bachmann P70s on 22" radius curves for half an hour without problems (no motor overheating, etc). I have not torture tested my other repowered engines (such as my I1sa), but none of my repowering projects have had any major problems. So far I've done two K4s, one H9s, one L1s, and one I1sa. By no means do I intend this to invalidate the observations of others; everyone's experience tends to be a bit different. Doug --- Chuck Bowman wrote: > I'm also interested it what someone said in the past > two days re the > quality of the Helix Humper motors - namely that > they are cheap three-pole > motors. Has something changed recently? Can anyone > verify the nature > andquality of the current motors supplied in this > line? > > chuck > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 02:09:11 EST Subject: [PRR] We ought to be having this discussion on LDSIG --part1_1e.52b98f0.2b341c17_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/19/02 8:21:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: TANGENT - Staging Lighting > From: "Jerry Britton" > Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 10:45:02 -0500 > > I asked this of the LDSIG list and got only one response! > > I have a staging area that is underneath the main level. It won't be used > for switching or fiddling, just parking trains. > > During maintenance periods, temporary lighting (e.g. Trouble light) can be > used. > > During op sessions I expect to keep this level either dark or dimmed. > > That said, has anyone tried to light such an area using the Christmas > lights > that come in a string where the bulbs are arranged end-to-end and are > inside > a clear plastic (flexible) tube? They come in like 40' lengths and I am > thinking they "might" be enough light for this purpose. They also would be > low voltage and low heat. > > Anyone try this? > Jerry, I'm vastly surprised that you got few answers -- OTOH, I think this has come up on that list in the past (when I was on that list) and would be in archive. Do check the LDSIG's archives on this one. Need I point out that, if a list has gone crazy on some subject in the recent past, not many souls will respond again to a new requester. Incidentally, much as I hate to cover up staging tracks, it looks like I'll have to (in spades) on the new layout. I'm curious how much headroom/handroom you have above your N scale staging? Also, assuming these lights are a good idea, are you going to put them on a switch or relay so they're only on when needed? -- for example, when the access doors are opened. I might have some concern about heat buildup -- especially if the lights are incandescent and the area is enclosed in front by wood panels or curtains. Having said that, I admit that I (and everyone else committing layout-building crime this winter) should probably be on the ldsig list, and be dues-paying members of the LDSIG organization. Coincidentally, I'm told that something is being done about the dearth of LDSIG publications. More info as I hear it... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_1e.52b98f0.2b341c17_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/19/02 8:21:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: TANGENT - Staging Lighting
From: "Jerry Britton" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 10:45:02 -0500

I asked this of the LDSIG list and got only one response!

I have a staging area that is underneath the main level. It won't be used
for switching or fiddling, just parking trains.

During maintenance periods, temporary lighting (e.g. Trouble light) can be
used.

During op sessions I expect to keep this level either dark or dimmed.

That said, has anyone tried to light such an area using the Christmas lights
that come in a string where the bulbs are arranged end-to-end and are inside
a clear plastic (flexible) tube? They come in like 40' lengths and I am
thinking they "might" be enough light for this purpose. They also would be
low voltage and low heat.

Anyone try this?


Jerry,

I'm vastly surprised that you got few answers -- OTOH, I think this has come up on that list in the past (when I was on that list) and would be in archive.  Do check the LDSIG's archives on this one.

Need I point out that, if a list has gone crazy on some subject in the recent past, not many souls will respond again to a new requester.

Incidentally, much as I hate to cover up staging tracks, it looks like I'll have to (in spades) on the new layout.  I'm curious how much headroom/handroom you have above your N scale staging?  Also, assuming these lights are a good idea, are you going to put them on a switch or relay so they're only on when needed? -- for example, when the access doors are opened.  I might have some concern about heat buildup -- especially if the lights are incandescent and the area is enclosed in front by wood panels or curtains.

Having said that, I admit that I (and everyone else committing layout-building crime this winter) should probably be on the ldsig list, and be dues-paying members of the LDSIG organization.  Coincidentally, I'm told that something is being done about the dearth of LDSIG publications.  More info as I hear it...


                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_1e.52b98f0.2b341c17_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 02:09:14 EST Subject: [PRR] Shawnee addendum (Sandusky Branch) --part1_149.5878030.2b341c1a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've already posted comments based on an 1893 map of Columbus railroad facilites. In addition: The 1901 public timetable from the Shawnee (Columbus Shawnee and Hocking) confirms that 1. The Shawnee is in receivership at that date 2. The Sandusky line (later PRR Sandusky Branch and after 1964 part of the Norfolk & Western) is still associated with it, although the passenger train schedules don't seem to be "through schedules"; i.e., everybody changes trains at Columbus. My copy of Burgess & Kennedy doesn't state the year of purchase, but mentions the "dismemberment upon foreclosure" of the Shawnee in 1902. The language suggests that the Shawnee, already in receivership, had failed to come to arrangements with a mortgage holder, and lost the Sandusky Line property, which was then sold to a Pennsy System affiliate (Pennsylvania Company?). B& K comment that "the remainder of this property, the line from Columbus to Shawnee, southeast of Columbus, was acquired by the New York Central" -- however, other sources make me suspect the eventual NYC acquisition was more complicated than B&K indicate. BTW, it's folklore among Pennsy fans that the Sandusky Branch was busy during the "lake" season, and almost dead through the winter, when shallow Lake Erie froze over. Challenge -- do we really know this is so, or is this a nice story for the railfans? What do we know of online businesses, interchange between the Branch and all those roads crossing it, etc.? To look at our picture books, the Branch appeared the day before the Santa Fe steam power was leased, lasted one year to be shot by Phil Hastings so there'd be pictures in Trains magazine and The Mohawk that Refused to Abdicate, and then disappeared again with dieselization .. Can anyone cite evidence of life on the Branch in any other year? P.S. When I caught up with Grogan Yard circa 1972, it was being used as a parking lot for old and damaged boxcars -- probably waiting for the scrapper. X31's, X43's, and more, looking unloved. By then, the coal trains just rolled on by on the main to Sandusky. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_149.5878030.2b341c1a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've already posted comments based on an 1893 map of Columbus railroad facilites.  In addition:

The 1901 public timetable from the Shawnee (Columbus Shawnee and Hocking) confirms that
1.  The Shawnee is in receivership at that date
2.  The Sandusky line (later PRR Sandusky Branch and after 1964 part of the Norfolk & Western) is still associated with it, although the passenger train schedules don't seem to be "through schedules"; i.e., everybody changes trains at Columbus.

My copy of Burgess & Kennedy doesn't state the year of purchase, but mentions the "dismemberment upon foreclosure" of the Shawnee in 1902.  The language suggests that the Shawnee, already in receivership, had failed to come to arrangements with a mortgage holder, and lost the Sandusky Line property, which was then sold to a Pennsy System affiliate (Pennsylvania Company?).  B&K comment that "the remainder of this property, the line from Columbus to Shawnee, southeast of Columbus, was acquired by the New York Central" -- however, other sources make me suspect the eventual NYC acquisition was more complicated than B&K indicate.

BTW, it's folklore among Pennsy fans that the Sandusky Branch was busy during the "lake" season, and almost dead through the winter, when shallow Lake Erie froze over.  Challenge -- do we really know this is so, or is this a nice story for the railfans?  What do we know of online businesses, interchange between the Branch and all those roads crossing it, etc.? 

To look at our picture books, the Branch appeared the day before the Santa Fe steam power was leased, lasted one year to be shot by Phil Hastings so there'd be pictures in Trains magazine and The Mohawk that Refused to Abdicate, and then disappeared again with dieselization <G>..  Can anyone cite evidence of life on the Branch in any other year?

P.S.  When I caught up with Grogan Yard circa 1972, it was being used as a parking lot for old and damaged boxcars -- probably waiting for the scrapper.  X31's, X43's, and more, looking unloved.  By then, the coal trains just rolled on by on the main to Sandusky.

                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_149.5878030.2b341c1a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 02:09:14 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Shawnee addendum (Sandusky Branch) I've already posted comments based on an 1893 map of Columbus railroad facilites. In addition: The 1901 public timetable from the Shawnee (Columbus Shawnee and Hocking) confirms that 1. The Shawnee is in receivership at that date 2. The Sandusky line (later PRR Sandusky Branch and after 1964 part of the Norfolk & Western) is still associated with it, although the passenger train schedules don't seem to be "through schedules"; i.e., everybody changes trains at Columbus. My copy of Burgess & Kennedy doesn't state the year of purchase, but mentions the "dismemberment upon foreclosure" of the Shawnee in 1902. The language suggests that the Shawnee, already in receivership, had failed to come to arrangements with a mortgage holder, and lost the Sandusky Line property, which was then sold to a Pennsy System affiliate (Pennsylvania Company?). B& K comment that "the remainder of this property, the line from Columbus to Shawnee, southeast of Columbus, was acquired by the New York Central" -- however, other sources make me suspect the eventual NYC acquisition was more complicated than B&K indicate. BTW, it's folklore among Pennsy fans that the Sandusky Branch was busy during the "lake" season, and almost dead through the winter, when shallow Lake Erie froze over. Challenge -- do we really know this is so, or is this a nice story for the railfans? What do we know of online businesses, interchange between the Branch and all those roads crossing it, etc.? To look at our picture books, the Branch appeared the day before the Santa Fe steam power was leased, lasted one year to be shot by Phil Hastings so there'd be pictures in Trains magazine and The Mohawk that Refused to Abdicate, and then disappeared again with dieselization .. Can anyone cite evidence of life on the Branch in any other year? P.S. When I caught up with Grogan Yard circa 1972, it was being used as a parking lot for old and damaged boxcars -- probably waiting for the scrapper. X31's, X43's, and more, looking unloved. By then, the coal trains just rolled on by on the main to Sandusky. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 06:28:57 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] We ought to be having this discussion on LDSIG From: Jerry Britton On 12/20/02 2:09 AM, "RickTipton@aol.com" wrote: > I'm vastly surprised that you got few answers -- OTOH, I think this has come > up on that list in the past (when I was on that list) and would be in archive. > Do check the LDSIG's archives on this one. Couldn't find anything the way I searched... > > Need I point out that, if a list has gone crazy on some subject in the recent > past, not many souls will respond again to a new requester. > > Incidentally, much as I hate to cover up staging tracks, it looks like I'll > have to (in spades) on the new layout. I'm curious how much headroom/handroom > you have above your N scale staging? Also, assuming these lights are a good > idea, are you going to put them on a switch or relay so they're only on when > needed? -- for example, when the access doors are opened. I might have some > concern about heat buildup -- especially if the lights are incandescent and > the area is enclosed in front by wood panels or curtains. The staging level is 15" below the main level, inclusive of the framing for the main level. The main level overhangs the staging level by 4" and a curtain will hang from the underside of the overhang. This will allow some heat, if there is any, to escape. The lights will be on a switch, or even a dimmer. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] RDC's Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:45:57 +0000 I know the PRR never bought any RDC's but did they ever test them and where? How long were they on the system? It seems strange that with Budd headquartered in Philadelphia that the PRR didn't support them in the venture. Or was the idea of passenger service ending already a foregone conclusion by that time? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Electronic Newsletter Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 14:16:53 +0000 I just wanted to publically thank Al for his efforts. The information and effort are much appreciated. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] RDC's Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:21:29 -0500 I don't know the exact answer to that but because the PRSL went big on them, I am sure they were under consideration at the time. I seem to remember in the early 1950s when Budd came out with the RDC the big push was on the NYC to cut down the crew size to two men at the most, possibly one on the branch lines. The Unions said "NO WAY JOSÉ to that one and the concept was a flop. The NYC abandoned service on the branch lines that the RDCs were bought for and they plugged four packs together from Albany to Boston with three (or was it four)man crews. Bill Volkmer (never worked for the NYC) -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 8:46 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] RDC's I know the PRR never bought any RDC's but did they ever test them and where? How long were they on the system? It seems strange that with Budd headquartered in Philadelphia that the PRR didn't support them in the venture. Or was the idea of passenger service ending already a foregone conclusion by that time? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:24:15 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Electronic Newsletter From: Jerry Britton On 12/20/02 9:16 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > I just wanted to publically thank Al for his efforts. The information and > effort are much appreciated. > I agree. The PRRT&HS eNews has been a great addition to the Society's offerings. Those who are not members of the Society are urged to join! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] RDC's Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:28:31 -0500 I don't know specifically about the PRR, but the P-RSL did have 12 RDC-1's. This was part of an agreement with the ICC that said that if the railroad would by the 12 RDC's they would reduce the ordered rebuild of (60) P70 coaches to P70fbR by 20. Since these were Pennsy coaches and were being rebuilt PRR, maybe this was Pennsy's way of supporting Budd. BTW, The RDC's did run into 30th Street Station, so maybe this would qualify as a PRR operation???. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 8:46 AM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] RDC's I know the PRR never bought any RDC's but did they ever test them and where? How long were they on the system? It seems strange that with Budd headquartered in Philadelphia that the PRR didn't support them in the venture. Or was the idea of passenger service ending already a foregone conclusion by that time? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 09:52:20 -0600 From: Chuck Bowman Subject: [PRR] G5 Lew, Dick, List, I had a good experience with building my G5s, including all of the superdetail parts from Bowser/Cal Scale. Unfortunately I don't recall the boiler metal either. Mine is about 12 years old, and runs fine, albeit with a very slight "waddle", which I don't mind. The real ones were reportedly not the smoothest-riding! I do all my drilling by hand, using a good pin vise. It takes longer, and bits still break on occasion. But the "grabbing" is quite minimal. I always purchase high-speed-steel bits. The cab roof wind deflector is Bowser part 90322; its in the parts list on their web site for $2.50. You should be able to purchase it directly. If you are a glutton for punishment, you can do what I did with the tender. The main problem is that the rear section of the tender is too high. Working from photos in the Staufer books, I lowered the deck of the water tank (ie behind the coal slope sheet) by cutting it off with a saw just below the top rivet line (thus preserving the rivets), filing down the sides to the correct level, and reattaching the deck with ACC. I'm sure its not a perfect rendition, but the appearance is much improved compared to an unmodified tender. I also chose to install a rear headlight and a rear hencoop pilot on my tender. A number of the Pittsburgh tenders were so-equipped, because some of the commuter lines had no facilities for turning the engines. chuck Charles H. Bowman Phone 979-690-7095 Lah Lah Farm Fax 979-690-8069 13350 Hopes Creek Road Cell 979-587-1386 College Station TX 77845-9250 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 11:16:41 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists Hello all, My better half, long a supporter of my peculiar addiction and who has oft sported an ACL Champion T-shirt to train meets, has acquired an ACL P2K E6A/B set. Having no regard for my rivet counting, she is now threatening to run it on my layout (should it get built) of the PRR in Columbia PA in June 1944 (http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/Homerr.html). In a DESPERATE attempt to maintain SOME prototypical authenticity, I have come up with the following scenario...The ACL has sent an E6 A/B set north on the Champion for Public Relations appearances in Washington D.C. and New York. Running North from DC the train is detoured off of the main at Perryville and onto the A&S due to a wreck in Elkton Md. The train runs to Columbia, the power is moved to the rear (and the A unit turned on the table in Columbia). The train then runs out the Columbia branch to Lancaster, and back in to N. Philly and on to NY....how's that? I would like to assemble a passable version of the Champion for my lovely spouse, to run behind her E units. In searching the net, and the archives of the above groups, I have learned much regarding the joint NY-Florida trains. However I haven't been able to find the crucial two items, so I seek your assistance... 1) A typical consist or consists for the Champion for 1944 (how did the consists change over the route?) - I do know that prewar Budd P85R coaches from the PRR for this train were stainless, not Tuscan, and had purple letterboards...which should be a fun change. 2) The models available in HO for this consist, accurate and stand-ins. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:56:39 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists Bruce, You've got good news and bad news. Being war time, no new equipment would yet have been delivered and the Champion would be running its pre-war all Budd stuff. Of course, being war time, it might be running anything, and no one would be allowed to photograph it! The good news is that you only need to consider a few types of cars since the pre-war Champion was an all-coach train. You need the observation, a diner, a combine and , a few coaches. The bad news is that other than brass, I don't know of accurate models for any of this stuff! All the new Walthers' cars are distinctively post war. Athearn's cars are closer to correct, but of course they are woefully short. My post war Champion has been running for years with a stretched Athearn observation with new window panels. You might look at the new ECW NYC Budd coaches. I know nothing about them, but they might be close. I would suggest that you invest in the book "From NY To Florida by Streamliner" or some such. Its a perfect bound paperback and sells for around $30. Its the best resource I know of for photos of this train. It has a whole section of the PRR's part in this service. I believe that the Champion also appears in one of the Train Shed reprints of the Car Builders Cyclopedia on Passenger Trains. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: > Hello all, > > My better half, long a supporter of my peculiar addiction and who has oft > sported an ACL Champion T-shirt to train meets, has acquired an ACL P2K > E6A/B set. Having no regard for my rivet counting, she is now threatening > to run it on my layout (should it get built) of the PRR in Columbia PA in > June 1944 (http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/Homerr.html). > In a DESPERATE attempt to maintain SOME prototypical authenticity, I have > come up with the following scenario...The ACL has sent an E6 A/B set north > on the Champion for Public Relations appearances in Washington D.C. and New > York. Running North from DC the train is detoured off of the main at > Perryville and onto the A&S due to a wreck in Elkton Md. The train runs to > Columbia, the power is moved to the rear (and the A unit turned on the > table in Columbia). The train then runs out the Columbia branch to > Lancaster, and back in to N. Philly and on to NY....how's that? > > I would like to assemble a passable version of the Champion for my lovely > spouse, to run behind her E units. In searching the net, and the archives > of the above groups, I have learned much regarding the joint NY-Florida > trains. However I haven't been able to find the crucial two items, so I > seek your assistance... > > 1) A typical consist or consists for the Champion for 1944 (how did the > consists change over the route?) - I do know that prewar Budd P85R coaches > from the PRR for this train were stainless, not Tuscan, and had purple > letterboards...which should be a fun change. > > 2) The models available in HO for this consist, accurate and stand-ins. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dave Vinci" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR memories Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:14:50 -0500 When I was 5 my Grandfather took me down to 30th Street station to see the trains a few days before Christmas. We went down to the platforms and after he spoke with the engineer I was lifted up onto the the engineer's seat in a GG1. I can remember that experience like it was yesterday... even the cab signals and the engineer showing me the dead-man's pedal. When Christmas morning arrived there was a set of Lionel trains under the tree, mostly Pennsy. Just the engine was lettered for Lionel #224. I still have the trains and still set 'em up under the tree. Makes me remember that Christmas long ago when I sat in a GG1. Merry Christmas All! Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR memories Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:29:36 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Zak [mailto:casimer.zakrzewski@us.army.mil] Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 6:57 PM To: prr-talk Subject: [PRR] PRR memories Just had to jump in on the memories thread, as I had many great ones that propelled me into a lifetime of modeling the PRR and more recently focusing on the PRSL. Born in Atlantic City, I grew up in Pleasantville. I could hear and see the trains in and out of A.C. cross the meadows. I got my first Lionel's at about 3 or 4. Two Scout sets on a Christmas Garden 4x8 under the tree. Dad was not a model railroader but the thing grew every year into a 4x8 w/ a2x4 "L" extension now up on legs in the sun-parlor. He was also rather amazing, as are most Dads. He worked the night shift for the Post Office in A.C. Before Christmas, while I was in school, he would design this year's layout (they were all different each year). In the basement, with the door locked he would lay out all the track and switches, wire it, test it, and make sure everything worked. Then on Christmas Eve, after we (I had a sister by then) were in bed, he would dismantle the layout, remove all the furniture from the sun-parlor, carry the platform(s) up the outside stairway, set it up, re-attach the track and swirches, rewire everything, and make sure it worked. Then he would go to work...on Christmas Eve. After Mom finished decorating the tree (we weren't allowed to see anything...Santa brought it!!) she would do the garden. Grass, ballast, houses, cars, trucks, people, etc and the remainder of the rolling stock. Dad woul get home about 7:30 AM. My sister and I had been awake all night, and weren't allowed out of the bedroom untill he got in and settled. Talk about awesome Christmas mornings. We were literally in shock. This went on every Christmas for our entire childhood. What memories!! It still influences me to this day. Thing can never be the same as the were those many years ago....but I always have a layout and Christmas garden.... even today. Thanks for letting me share. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year Buzz **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:54:59 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists Hi Andy, You said: >The good news is that you only need to consider a few types of cars since the >pre-war Champion was an all-coach train. You need the observation, a >diner, a >combine and , a few coaches. Hmmmm...I found the 1941 Tamaimi Champion (East and West Coast trains) schedule at http://www.getcruising.com/gfx/rails/acltc41.jpg (which is part of the Florida Online Rails Museum http://www.getcruising.com/rails/museum.html) Apparently the name Tamaimi Champion was used until a wreck in 1943, after which the term was dropped in favor of just "Champion". I immediately noted that the East and West Coast trains do not appear to be sections combined at some point, but rather seperate trains, since the former departs NYC at 5:30 PM and the later at 12:30 PM. The schedule says for the East Coast Tamaimi Champion: "Stainless steel streamlined coaches with individual reclining seats - all reserved, and dressing lounge rooms. Passenger representative, maid, coach attendants add to your comfort and enjoyment. PLUS modern Pullman sleeping cars. And - A beautiful tavern-lounge car, radio equipped, for the enjoyment of all coach and all Pullman passengers" The description of the West Coast Tamaimi Champion is identical except it adds the note "between Wahington and Tampa" for the tavern-lounge, implying to me that the East Coast version had that car all the way. So are the Pullmans and the tavern-lounge equipment short-term parts of the consist that are dropped after 1941, or equipment that is only used south of D.C., or are you perhaps mistaken about the "all coach" makeup of the train ? One other interesting note about the schedule...the West Coast train stops in Newark, North Philly, Philly (30th), Baltimore and Washington. The East Coast version eliminated the North Philly stop. The North Philly stop was 2:40 PM southbound, 2:45 PM northbound...implying that that West Coast Champions staged at meet very close to or at North Philly. The northbound West Coast Champion arrived at New York at 4:15 PM prior to the 5:30 departure of the southbound East Coast Champion, so there was no meet of these trains (other than in/under New york), and the northbound East Coast Champion had an 11:55 AM arrival in New York, precluding any meets with other Champions while on PRR property. >The bad news is that other than brass, I don't know >of accurate models for any of this stuff! All the new Walthers' cars are >distinctively post war. Sheesh, my wife is as bad as my daughter (4.5 yrs old), who wants a complete NH Yankee Clipper, including the 4-6-4 shoreliner! Actually, I shouldn't say that...my wife would just couple the E6s onto an all PRR consist or a freight and be happy . Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR memories Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 19:01:43 +0000 How many of us remember putting the nickle in the slot so the K4 in the glass case would run at 30th ST.? > When I was 5 my Grandfather took me down to 30th Street station to see the > trains a few days before Christmas. We went down to the platforms and after > he spoke with the engineer I was lifted up onto the the engineer's seat in a > GG1. I can remember that experience like it was yesterday... even the cab > signals and the engineer showing me the dead-man's pedal. When Christmas > morning arrived there was a set of Lionel trains under the tree, mostly > Pennsy. Just the engine was lettered for Lionel #224. I still have the > trains and still set 'em up under the tree. Makes me remember that > Christmas long ago when I sat in a GG1. > > Merry Christmas All! > > Dave > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 19:04:54 +0000 Ball's book on the PRR shows ACL E units at 30th St. I don't think it was the big snow fiasco with the G's. It was becasue of some other reason that I don't remember (senior moments make life interesting to say the least!). You could also run NRHS fan trips on the PRR with them. > Hello all, > > My better half, long a supporter of my peculiar addiction and who has oft > sported an ACL Champion T-shirt to train meets, has acquired an ACL P2K > E6A/B set. Having no regard for my rivet counting, she is now threatening > to run it on my layout (should it get built) of the PRR in Columbia PA in > June 1944 (http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/Homerr.html). > In a DESPERATE attempt to maintain SOME prototypical authenticity, I have > come up with the following scenario...The ACL has sent an E6 A/B set north > on the Champion for Public Relations appearances in Washington D.C. and New > York. Running North from DC the train is detoured off of the main at > Perryville and onto the A&S due to a wreck in Elkton Md. The train runs to > Columbia, the power is moved to the rear (and the A unit turned on the > table in Columbia). The train then runs out the Columbia branch to > Lancaster, and back in to N. Philly and on to NY....how's that? > > I would like to assemble a passable version of the Champion for my lovely > spouse, to run behind her E units. In searching the net, and the archives > of the above groups, I have learned much regarding the joint NY-Florida > trains. However I haven't been able to find the crucial two items, so I > seek your assistance... > > 1) A typical consist or consists for the Champion for 1944 (how did the > consists change over the route?) - I do know that prewar Budd P85R coaches > from the PRR for this train were stainless, not Tuscan, and had purple > letterboards...which should be a fun change. > > 2) The models available in HO for this consist, accurate and stand-ins. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 14:14:17 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] FW: [PRR-FAX] Obituary Received this message from a former PRR associate of mine. Al ================= I received word this morning of the death of W. D. (Bill) Edson. He had been the NYC Chief Mechanical Engineer until the merger, and then went to FRA and played a strong part in the formation of Amtrak where he later became its first CMO. He was also the compiler of many motive power rosters most notably of the NYC and PRR ("Pennsy Steam and Electric"). He was an exemplary railroad historian and collector. His eyesight had been failing and he suffered from Parkinson's, but had maintained his interest and activities until he fell last week and died from his injuries yesterday (12-19-02). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 14:26:44 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Obituary From: Jerry Britton On 12/20/02 2:14 PM, Al Buchan (abbuchan1@comcast.net) wrote: > I received word this morning of the death of W. D. (Bill) Edson. Thanks for passing this on, Al. I, for one, have benefited from Mr. Edson's work. Thanks, Bill! This has really been a year for PRR-related losses. Given that the railroad has been gone for 34 years, I suspect from here on out there will be a lot of such announcements. I was pleased in the eNews to read that Society membership is above 3,100. We need to do everything we can to recruit the younger generations to get involved. In my opinion, we need to maintain close to 3,000 in order to keep The Keystone in its current (high quality) form. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 14:45:21 -0500 You might also try the NKP Car Co. They have several brass sides that would be appropriate for the champion Larry On Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:56:39 -0500 "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > Bruce, > > You've got good news and bad news. Being war time, no > new equipment would yet > have been delivered and the Champion would be running its > pre-war all Budd stuff. > Of course, being war time, it might be running anything, > and no one would be > allowed to photograph it! > > The good news is that you only need to consider a few > types of cars since the > pre-war Champion was an all-coach train. You need the > observation, a diner, a > combine and , a few coaches. The bad news is that other > than brass, I don't know > of accurate models for any of this stuff! All the new > Walthers' cars are > distinctively post war. Athearn's cars are closer to > correct, but of course they > are woefully short. My post war Champion has been > running for years with a > stretched Athearn observation with new window panels. > You might look at the new > ECW NYC Budd coaches. I know nothing about them, but > they might be close. > > I would suggest that you invest in the book "From NY To > Florida by Streamliner" > or some such. Its a perfect bound paperback and sells > for around $30. Its the > best resource I know of for photos of this train. It > has a whole section of the > PRR's part in this service. I believe that the Champion > also appears in one of the > Train Shed reprints of the Car Builders Cyclopedia on > Passenger Trains. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > > > "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: > > > Hello all, > > > > My better half, long a supporter of my peculiar > addiction and who has oft > > sported an ACL Champion T-shirt to train meets, has > acquired an ACL P2K > > E6A/B set. Having no regard for my rivet counting, she > is now threatening > > to run it on my layout (should it get built) of the PRR > in Columbia PA in > > June 1944 > (http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/Homerr.html). > > In a DESPERATE attempt to maintain SOME prototypical > authenticity, I have > > come up with the following scenario...The ACL has sent > an E6 A/B set north > > on the Champion for Public Relations appearances in > Washington D.C. and New > > York. Running North from DC the train is detoured off > of the main at > > Perryville and onto the A&S due to a wreck in Elkton > Md. The train runs to > > Columbia, the power is moved to the rear (and the A > unit turned on the > > table in Columbia). The train then runs out the > Columbia branch to > > Lancaster, and back in to N. Philly and on to > NY....how's that? > > > > I would like to assemble a passable version of the > Champion for my lovely > > spouse, to run behind her E units. In searching the > net, and the archives > > of the above groups, I have learned much regarding the > joint NY-Florida > > trains. However I haven't been able to find the > crucial two items, so I > > seek your assistance... > > > > 1) A typical consist or consists for the Champion for > 1944 (how did the > > consists change over the route?) - I do know that > prewar Budd P85R coaches > > from the PRR for this train were stainless, not Tuscan, > and had purple > > letterboards...which should be a fun change. > > > > 2) The models available in HO for this consist, > accurate and stand-ins. > > > > Happy Rails > > Bruce > > > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be > happy" - Benjamin Franklin > > __ > > / \ > > __<+--+>________________\__/___ > ____________________________________ > > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ > __ __ __ __ | > > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | > ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > > > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 > 0-0-0 > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. > > -- > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Web mail provided by NuNet, Inc. The Premier National provider. http://www.nni.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 13:48:01 -0600 About 10 years ago, a soft cover book was publsihed detailing, on a nearly year-by-year basis, the consists of all the NY-Fla trains. Maybe somone can recall the name of this book? -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 11:17 AM To: RAILROADmodeler@yahoogroups.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists Hello all, My better half, long a supporter of my peculiar addiction and who has oft sported an ACL Champion T-shirt to train meets, has acquired an ACL P2K E6A/B set. Having no regard for my rivet counting, she is now threatening to run it on my layout (should it get built) of the PRR in Columbia PA in June 1944 (http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/Homerr.html). In a DESPERATE attempt to maintain SOME prototypical authenticity, I have come up with the following scenario...The ACL has sent an E6 A/B set north on the Champion for Public Relations appearances in Washington D.C. and New York. Running North from DC the train is detoured off of the main at Perryville and onto the A&S due to a wreck in Elkton Md. The train runs to Columbia, the power is moved to the rear (and the A unit turned on the table in Columbia). The train then runs out the Columbia branch to Lancaster, and back in to N. Philly and on to NY....how's that? I would like to assemble a passable version of the Champion for my lovely spouse, to run behind her E units. In searching the net, and the archives of the above groups, I have learned much regarding the joint NY-Florida trains. However I haven't been able to find the crucial two items, so I seek your assistance... 1) A typical consist or consists for the Champion for 1944 (how did the consists change over the route?) - I do know that prewar Budd P85R coaches from the PRR for this train were stainless, not Tuscan, and had purple letterboards...which should be a fun change. 2) The models available in HO for this consist, accurate and stand-ins. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: [PRR] Wives and Trains Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 14:21:15 -0600 Hi All! For the wife, just give her an H9s. Then, she can run freight, passenger and/or switch (excuse me, shift). :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" To: Sent: Friday, 20 December, 2002 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists > Sheesh, my wife is as bad as my daughter (4.5 yrs old), who wants a complete NH Yankee Clipper, including the 4-6-4 shoreliner! Actually, I shouldn't say that...my wife would just couple the E6s onto an all PRR consist or a freight and be happy . On the other hand, did the PRR use E6s in freight? I don't see why not! Probably not in shifting though! and :) You are lucky. My granddaughter wants a Hippopotamus. The ones in the zoo, not our beloved "Hippo's". However, she does know what a train is. And at 4.5 years old, that's an accomplishment (for me!) Double Grins! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:19:16 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Electronic Newsletter And those who have e-mail should also participate in the PRRTHS web discussion. It is an excellent way to promote the society and it's site. Check it out at http://prrths.com/InfoDefault.htm Many PRR-Talk members can contribute to the society's website evan if they are not members. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 9:24 AM To: ndbprr@att.net; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Electronic Newsletter On 12/20/02 9:16 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > I just wanted to publically thank Al for his efforts. The information and > effort are much appreciated. > I agree. The PRRT&HS eNews has been a great addition to the Society's offerings. Those who are not members of the Society are urged to join! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KLJURY@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:29:53 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR memories --part1_165.186c16e7.2b34e5d1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I grew up in Millersburg, Pa in the 40's and 50's. It is halfway between Sunbury and Harrisburg on the Buffalo Line, thus it had a water tower and standpipe for M1's, I1's, L1's & H10's to water at when needed which was an operation I often watched. This was just over the hill from my grandparents' house so when we gathered for Christmas dinner we would make home made ice cream. The closest source of good ice was the huge icecicles formed by the overflow pipe on the water tank. Dad & I would go and chop off enough chunks to fill a galvanized tub and put it in the trunk of our '48 Dodge sedan. Haven;t had home made ice cream that good in many years; had to have been the PRR ice! --part1_165.186c16e7.2b34e5d1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I grew up in Millersburg, Pa in the 40's and 50's. It is halfway between
Sunbury and Harrisburg on the Buffalo Line, thus it had a water tower and standpipe for M1's, I1's, L1's & H10's to water at when needed
which was an operation I often watched. This was just over the hill
from my grandparents' house so when we gathered for Christmas
dinner we would make home made ice cream. The closest source
of good ice was the huge icecicles formed by the overflow pipe on
the water tank. Dad & I would go and chop off enough chunks to fill
a galvanized tub and put it in the trunk of our '48 Dodge sedan.
  Haven;t had home made ice cream that good in many years; had to have been the PRR ice!
 --part1_165.186c16e7.2b34e5d1_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] Lower level staging Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:08:05 -0500 Guys, I don't see much difference between talking about steam loco model building techniques, and talking about layout construction techniques -- they both have their application to PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD model railroading... I have a lower-level staging yard my present layout that is under another strata of visible layout, and would recommend to anyone considering doing the same, DON'T!!! Had I to do it over again, I would have the visible trackwork running in FRONT of the staging yard, so to have full access to the hidden staging yard from above. Odd thing is, it isn't the switchwork that has the problems. My layout is in an old stone-walled New England cellar, and after a surprisingly short time of inactivity, spiders or daddy long-legs build webs in there on the straight storage tracks which interfere with good conduction on the rails. Railroading on the web, as it were. A major pain in the butt to get under there and manually clean track, track cleaning cars don't seem to get the job done thoroughly. However, Jerry, it sounds as if you have more room between levels than I do, and N-scale being half the height of HO also helps. A fellow whose two-level layout I operate on uses strings of those "Rope Lights" (I think that's a brand name) for lighting on the lower level of his layout. I don't think two strings as he uses them really provide enough light, it's as if you're operating in twilight or early dawn all the time. However for your proposed application, Jerry, such lighting would probably be sufficient, and while the 'ropes' get warm to the touch, you don't get the heat buildup you would with normal incandescents. Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:25:13 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Membership There have been a couple of messages today referring to membership in the PRRT&HS. For those PRR fans on this list that are not members of the society. I offer the following. We are currently in our annual membership renewal phase, so this would be a good time to join for 2003. Regular Membership in USA and Canada is $35.00 US. Sustaining Membership is $45.00. Contributing Membership is $50.00. Foreign postage is $10.00 additional per year. The Society, * publishes a quarterly magazine, "The Keystone" (typically 60+ pages, slick paper w/ color photos), which is one of, if not the, best railroad historical publications. * publishes a monthly electronic newsletter "e-NEWS," which reports on society news. * publishes books. The three most recent offerings are on the class P5 motor, Lewistown and Altoona. * holds an annual meeting during the first weekend in May, during which you get a chance to meet many PRR enthusiasts, learn something about various aspects of the PRR from the programs presented, participate in or view a model contest, and get a chance to acquire PRR models and memorabilia from vendors. The 2003 meeting will be in Philadelphia, 2004 in Cincinnati, 2005 and 2006 in Camp Hill. * operates an archive for PRR materials in the historic former PRR station in Lewistown, PA, which the society completely restored. The archives are still undergoing start up and are not yet open to the membership at large. Volunteers are still needed to complete the archival work. In addition to the National organization there are several official regional chapters throughout the US. New members can join by sending their membership payment to: PRRT&HS PO Box 712 Altoona, PA 16603-0712 Renewals go to: PRRT&HS PO Box 460 Glenmoore, PA 19343-0460 Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 17:49:26 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Lower level staging --part1_146.5b3b0cf.2b34f876_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/20/2002 5:18:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, DDrew@channing-bete.com writes: > I have a lower-level staging yard my present layout that is under another > strata of visible layout, and would recommend to anyone considering doing > the same, DON'T!!! > > Had I to do it over again, I would have the visible trackwork running in > FRONT of the staging yard, > > Amen to that. Had mode 1 on my first layout and it was horrible. After we > moved, rebuilt in mode 2 and am very glad I did. > > Lee Rainey --part1_146.5b3b0cf.2b34f876_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/20/2002 5:18:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, DDrew@channing-bete.com writes:


I have a lower-level staging yard my present layout that is under another
strata of visible layout, and would recommend to anyone considering doing
the same, DON'T!!!

Had I to do it over again, I would have the visible trackwork running in
FRONT of the staging yard,

Amen to that. Had  mode 1 on my first layout and it was horrible. After we moved, rebuilt in mode 2 and am very glad I did.

Lee Rainey


 --part1_146.5b3b0cf.2b34f876_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Membership Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:46:04 -0600 And I would like to second Mr. Buchan. Al does a really great job on the "eNEWS". The quarterly Keystone is at the top of the magazine art. Far superior to many other pubs I get. And now that there's Chicago and Texas chapters in the making! Wow! Timing is great! The best moneys worth in today's market. And a good return on investment. Those four Keystones alone are worth the price. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF President of pending PRRTHS Texas chapter Member of Trinity Valley Railroad Historical Association in Fort Worth TX Inactive member of Illinois Tech Model Railroaders in Chicago IL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, 20 December, 2002 04:25 PM Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Membership > There have been a couple of messages today referring to membership in > the PRRT&HS. > > For those PRR fans on this list that are not members of the society. I > offer the following. > > We are currently in our annual membership renewal phase, so this would > be a good time to join for 2003. > > Regular Membership in USA and Canada is $35.00 US. > Sustaining Membership is $45.00. > Contributing Membership is $50.00. > Foreign postage is $10.00 additional per year. > > The Society, > > * publishes a quarterly magazine, "The Keystone" (typically 60+ pages, > slick paper w/ color photos), which is one of, if not the, best railroad > historical publications. > > * publishes a monthly electronic newsletter "e-NEWS," which reports on > society news. > > * publishes books. The three most recent offerings are on the class P5 > motor, Lewistown and Altoona. > > * holds an annual meeting during the first weekend in May, during which > you get a chance to meet many PRR enthusiasts, learn something about > various aspects of the PRR from the programs presented, participate in > or view a model contest, and get a chance to acquire PRR models and > memorabilia from vendors. The 2003 meeting will be in Philadelphia, 2004 > in Cincinnati, 2005 and 2006 in Camp Hill. > > * operates an archive for PRR materials in the historic former PRR > station in Lewistown, PA, which the society completely restored. The > archives are still undergoing start up and are not yet open to the > membership at large. Volunteers are still needed to complete the > archival work. > > In addition to the National organization there are several official > regional chapters throughout the US. > > New members can join by sending their membership payment to: > > PRRT&HS > PO Box 712 > Altoona, PA 16603-0712 > > Renewals go to: > > PRRT&HS > PO Box 460 > Glenmoore, PA 19343-0460 > > Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 16:51:23 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Re: 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists Hello again, Thanks to Andy Miller and others, followed by some web site searching, I found that the official roster of the 1939 Champion was made up of 3 identical trainsets, one supplied by FEC and two by ACL: baggage-dorm-coach coach (60 seat) coach (60 seat) diner coach (60 seat) coach (52 seat w/hostess) tavern-lounge-observation (round end) Interestingly, the Champion got the name Tamiami Champion in 1941, and lost it in 1944. Also in 1944, the summer version of the Champion carried heavyweight Pullmans (Branchline...someday my cars will come...). I also found that the ACL-SAL Historical Society offers a window insert for a Rivarossi car for the 1939 ACL Baggage-dorm-coach, as well as the 1939 SAL Silver Meteor 60 seat coach. 1) Are these even worth looking at? 2) Is the Riv car a prewar Budd? 3) Any idea if the SAL coach work for an ACL coach? Now what to do about the diner and observation.... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 18:16:50 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] H31c Hi All, I am planning on doing a lot of painting over the holiday. I am wondering if the H31c in original Shadow Keystone was Freight Car Red or black? I am looking at the photo on Pg. 67 of John Teichmoeller's hopper book. If the car is FCR, it does not appear to have a shadow on the keystone. Please reply to billlane@comcast.net because I do not receive email from most of my lists. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR memories Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 18:58:33 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C2A859.CB25C100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 My memory was getting a HO scale train set for Christmas in 1973. It was= Cox train set (for a short time, Cox was actually marketing Athearn trai= ns under its name) featuring a Southern Pacific GP-35. I still have the c= ars and engine which I have weathered. This train set was sort of my "Red Rider BB gun" gift. It remains as the = best gift I have ever gotten for Christmas. While the Pennsy is Number 1 = in my modeling preferences, the Espee has a small but special niche in my= modeling heart.........there is something about 6-axle tunnel motors bat= tling the snow capped mountains of the Sierra Nevada that really embody t= his time of year. =20 But as for the Pennsylvania, click on the following link to what I think = is one of the best Pennsy-Christmas pictures ever taken. http://www.trainweb.org/fwarailfan/contributor/scb-adams.jpg Merry Christmas to all on PRR-Talk!!! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana Modeling the Fort Wayne Line in Indiana (as well as the South Bend Branch= ) ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C2A859.CB25C100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
 My memory was get= ting a HO scale train set for Christmas in 1973. It was Cox train set (fo= r a short time, Cox was actually marketing Athearn trains under its name)= featuring a Southern Pacific GP-35. I still have the cars and engine whi= ch I have weathered.
 
This train set was sort= of my "Red Rider BB gun" gift. It remains as the best gift I have ever g= otten for Christmas. While the Pennsy is Number 1 in my modeling pre= ferences, the Espee has a small but special niche in my modeling heart...= ......there is something about 6-axle tunnel motors battling the snow cap= ped mountains of the Sierra Nevada that really embody this time of year. =
 
But as for the Pennsylvania, click on the f= ollowing link to what I think is one of the best Pennsy-Christmas picture= s ever taken.
 
 
Merry Chr= istmas to all on PRR-Talk!!!
 
Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana
 
Modeling the Fort Wa= yne Line in Indiana (as well as the South Bend Branch)
 <= /DIV> ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C2A859.CB25C100-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] We ought to be having this discussion on LDSIG Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 18:55:39 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C2A859.63A04A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry we use strings of clear Christmas lights to light up two of the = staging yards on the Model RR club of Buffalo HO layout. they work = great and don't put out much heat or use alot of amps. Brian ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RickTipton@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 2:09 AM Subject: [PRR] We ought to be having this discussion on LDSIG In a message dated 12/19/02 8:21:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, = PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: Subject: TANGENT - Staging Lighting From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 10:45:02 -0500 I asked this of the LDSIG list and got only one response! I have a staging area that is underneath the main level. It won't be = used for switching or fiddling, just parking trains. During maintenance periods, temporary lighting (e.g. Trouble light) = can be used. During op sessions I expect to keep this level either dark or = dimmed. That said, has anyone tried to light such an area using the = Christmas lights that come in a string where the bulbs are arranged end-to-end and = are inside a clear plastic (flexible) tube? They come in like 40' lengths and I = am thinking they "might" be enough light for this purpose. They also = would be low voltage and low heat. Anyone try this? Jerry, I'm vastly surprised that you got few answers -- OTOH, I think this = has come up on that list in the past (when I was on that list) and would = be in archive. Do check the LDSIG's archives on this one. Need I point out that, if a list has gone crazy on some subject in the = recent past, not many souls will respond again to a new requester. Incidentally, much as I hate to cover up staging tracks, it looks like = I'll have to (in spades) on the new layout. I'm curious how much = headroom/handroom you have above your N scale staging? Also, assuming = these lights are a good idea, are you going to put them on a switch or = relay so they're only on when needed? -- for example, when the access = doors are opened. I might have some concern about heat buildup -- = especially if the lights are incandescent and the area is enclosed in = front by wood panels or curtains. Having said that, I admit that I (and everyone else committing = layout-building crime this winter) should probably be on the ldsig list, = and be dues-paying members of the LDSIG organization. Coincidentally, = I'm told that something is being done about the dearth of LDSIG = publications. More info as I hear it... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C2A859.63A04A00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jerry we use strings of clear Christmas = lights to=20 light up two of the staging yards on the Model RR club of Buffalo HO=20 layout.  they work great and don't put out much heat or use alot of = amps.
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RickTipton@aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 = 2:09=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] We ought to be = having this=20 discussion on LDSIG

In a message dated 12/19/02 8:21:47 PM Eastern = Standard=20 Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 writes:


Subject: TANGENT - Staging Lighting
From: "Jerry = Britton"=20 <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
Date:=20 Thu, 19 Dec 2002 10:45:02 -0500

I asked this of the LDSIG = list and=20 got only one response!

I have a staging area that is = underneath the=20 main level. It won't be used
for switching or fiddling, just = parking=20 trains.

During maintenance periods, temporary lighting (e.g. = Trouble=20 light) can be
used.

During op sessions I expect to keep = this level=20 either dark or dimmed.

That said, has anyone tried to light = such an=20 area using the Christmas lights
that come in a string where the = bulbs are=20 arranged end-to-end and are inside
a clear plastic (flexible) = tube? They=20 come in like 40' lengths and I am
thinking they "might" be enough = light=20 for this purpose. They also would be
low voltage and low=20 heat.

Anyone try = this?


Jerry,

I'm vastly=20 surprised that you got few answers -- OTOH, I think this has come up = on that=20 list in the past (when I was on that list) and would be in = archive.  Do=20 check the LDSIG's archives on this one.

Need I point out that, = if a=20 list has gone crazy on some subject in the recent past, not many souls = will=20 respond again to a new requester.

Incidentally, much as I hate = to cover=20 up staging tracks, it looks like I'll have to (in spades) on the new=20 layout.  I'm curious how much headroom/handroom you have above = your N=20 scale staging?  Also, assuming these lights are a good idea, are = you=20 going to put them on a switch or relay so they're only on when needed? = -- for=20 example, when the access doors are opened.  I might have some = concern=20 about heat buildup -- especially if the lights are incandescent and = the area=20 is enclosed in front by wood panels or curtains.

Having said = that, I=20 admit that I (and everyone else committing layout-building crime this = winter)=20 should probably be on the ldsig list, and be dues-paying members of = the LDSIG=20 organization.  Coincidentally, I'm told that something is being = done=20 about the dearth of LDSIG publications.  More info as I hear=20 it...


         &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;      =20 Rick Tipton - Louisville=20 = KY
           &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;    =20 Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div.=20 = 1966-1968)
          = ;            =       =20 And Remembering PRR Lines West =
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C2A859.63A04A00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Breon" Subject: [PRR] PRR H-31c Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 19:11:43 -0500 Bill Lane writes: "I am planning on doing a lot of painting over the holiday. I am wondering if the H31c in original Shadow Keystone was Freight Car Red or black?" Bill, For what its worth, I have a factory painted Overland PRR H-31c which is freight car color with the non-shadow keystone. Can't say if it is accurate or not, but I would be glad to email you a photo if you like. BTW, I checked out the Galveston Model RR Club site today after reading a post about you guys forming a PRRT&HS chapter down there. Looks pretty good. I recognized Ray's steel mill buildings as I knew him from his Orange Blossom Hobby days. Jerry Breon Reading, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR memories Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 15:21:20 -0900 Nice shot Ted. The Strasburg RR has a great computer wallpaper picture of #31. I'm looking for a Pennsy winter shot suitable for desktop wallpaper. Though any Pennsy snow pictures would be welcome. Please share links... (on or off list).. thanks. -alesx ----- Original Message ----- But as for the Pennsylvania, click on the following link to what I think is one of the best Pennsy-Christmas pictures ever taken. http://www.trainweb.org/fwarailfan/contributor/scb-adams.jpg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 19:37:54 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Lower level staging From: Jerry Britton On 12/20/02 5:08 PM, "Doug Drew" wrote: > However, Jerry, it sounds as if you have more room between levels than I do, > and N-scale being half the height of HO also helps. > 14" between levels in a new construction basement, with thermal sealed walls and an pest maintenance contract! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:21:29 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists --part1_1bd.1890b3e1.2b351c19_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The old HO-scale Rivarossi Budd coach (long out of production) has vexed a large number of modelers. While the car is clearly based upon a prewar Budd design, nobody I know has been able to pinpoint a definitive prototype. I've been told it's something southeastern, like SAL, ACL, RF&P, or FEC, but none of the photos in my Budd book match it. Now, the Walther's Budd coaches (of which there are two) might be more up your alley: In all of my Budd Company documentation I could not find many 46-seat coaches. There are many 50-seat cars, a number of 40- and 44-seat cars, lots of 52-seat cars and a healthy dose of 46-seat dome/coaches. There were only three 46-seat coaches listed - all belonging to the Atlantic Coast Line (cars #221 - 223), and also containing a stewardess' room. These cars were built by Budd in 1946-47 and used in New York-to-Florida service on the road's Champion trains. With the 52-seat coach, we have a car that saw service on several railroads. Many railroads had similar (but not identical) cars. The prototype for the Walthers model is a 1947 product that was owned by the Seaboard Air Line; Richmond, Fredericksburg and Potomac; and the Pennsylvania Railroad. The PRR, RF&P and SAL cars were originally used in joint New York-to-Florida service, although some of them later migrated to other services on the routes of their owner railroads. The Walthers model is right on for these cars! Chris Baker #1918 --part1_1bd.1890b3e1.2b351c19_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The old HO-scale Rivarossi Budd coach (long out of production) has vexed a large number of modelers.  While the car is clearly based upon a prewar Budd design, nobody I know has been able to pinpoint a definitive prototype.  I've been told it's something southeastern, like SAL, ACL, RF&P, or FEC, but none of the photos in my Budd book match it.

Now, the Walther's Budd coaches (of which there are two) might be more up your alley:

In all of my Budd Company documentation I could not find many 46-seat coaches.  There are many 50-seat cars, a number of 40- and 44-seat cars, lots of 52-seat cars and a healthy dose of 46-seat dome/coaches.  There were only three 46-seat coaches listed - all belonging to the Atlantic Coast Line (cars #221 - 223), and also containing a stewardess' room.  These cars were built by Budd in 1946-47 and used in New York-to-Florida service on the road's Champion trains.

With the 52-seat coach, we have a car that saw service on several railroads.  Many railroads had similar (but not identical) cars.  The prototype for the Walthers model is a 1947 product that was owned by the Seaboard Air Line; Richmond, Fredericksburg and Potomac; and the Pennsylvania Railroad.  The PRR, RF&P and SAL cars were originally used in joint New York-to-Florida service, although some of them later migrated to other services on the routes of their owner railroads.  The Walthers model is right on for these cars!

Chris Baker #1918 --part1_1bd.1890b3e1.2b351c19_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:26:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists --part1_ac.3435fca1.2b351d5f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps you are thinking of By Streamliner New York to Florida written by Joseph M Welsh and published in 1994 by Andover Junction Publications, Andover, NJ. CBaker --part1_ac.3435fca1.2b351d5f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Perhaps you are thinking of By Streamliner New York to Florida written by Joseph M Welsh and published in 1994 by Andover Junction Publications, Andover, NJ.

CBaker --part1_ac.3435fca1.2b351d5f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:55:57 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists --part1_3c.295ffef7.2b35242d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One other thought about the Walthers cars and the Florida streamliners: The latest offering to come from Walthers (Dec 2002) is a bobtail observation car. The inspiration for the model is a six-car series (#6600 - 6605) of Seaboard Air Line Tavern-Observation cars that were delivered to the railroad in 1947. These six cars were assigned to the Silver Meteor consists when Seaboard took that train to daily departures for both coasts of Florida. The cars survived into the merger between the Seaboard and the Atlantic Coast Line railroads, becoming Seaboard Coast Line cars #5840 - 5845. The SCL made an interesting modification to the rear ends of cars #5850, 5843 and 5844. A special housing and a diaphragm were added to facilitate mid-train operation of those cars. There appears to be some dimensional problems with the Walthers model's roof-mounted taillight -- the fixture seems to be grossly oversized. Walthers will provide alternate roofs with or without the rear taillight, based upon the railroad livery being sold. All of the Seaboard cars did have this fixture. Additionally, the Seaboard cars originally had full skirting. The Walthers cars will either feature or omit this element, again based upon the railroad livery being applied. --part1_3c.295ffef7.2b35242d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One other thought about the Walthers cars and the Florida streamliners:

The latest offering to come from Walthers (Dec 2002) is a bobtail observation car.  The inspiration for the model is a six-car series (#6600 - 6605) of Seaboard Air Line Tavern-Observation cars that were delivered to the railroad in 1947.  These six cars were assigned to the Silver Meteor consists when Seaboard took that train to daily departures for both coasts of Florida.  The cars survived into the merger between the Seaboard and the Atlantic Coast Line railroads, becoming Seaboard Coast Line cars #5840 - 5845.  The SCL made an interesting modification to the rear ends of cars #5850, 5843 and 5844.  A special housing and a diaphragm were added to facilitate mid-train operation of those cars.  There appears to be some dimensional problems with the Walthers model's roof-mounted taillight -- the fixture seems to be grossly oversized.  Walthers will provide alternate roofs with or without the rear taillight, based upon the railroad livery being sold.&n --part1_3c.295ffef7.2b35242d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 18:16:50 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] H31c Hi All, I am planning on doing a lot of painting over the holiday. I am wondering if the H31c in original Shadow Keystone was Freight Car Red or black? I am looking at the photo on Pg. 67 of John Teichmoeller's hopper book. If the car is FCR, it does not appear to have a shadow on the keystone. Please reply to billlane@comcast.net because I do not receive email from most of my lists. Thanks Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR memories Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 21:57:04 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C2A872.BBB47860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh, my gosh, you've destroyed my most cherished childhood memory!!! = :-) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: BBReynolds@aol.com=20 To: lmatt@alltel.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 10:19 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR memories In a message dated 12/19/2002 9:40:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, = lmatt@alltel.net writes:=20 I got an American Flyer K4s with three freight cars and a caboose = for Christmas when I was 5. Hate to be a "rivet counter" to your memory, but the American Flyer = PRR=20 Pacific was based on the K5. Ours was purchased c. 1950, and in was=20 still stored in its original corrugated cardboard roll when it was = destroyed=20 in a flood while in use for a second generation, c. 1970. I remember a = major project of replacing the original hook couplers with knuckles = sometime=20 in the late 1950's, so that newer cars could be added to the by then = rather=20 large collection.=20 Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA=20 ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C2A872.BBB47860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Oh, my gosh, you've destroyed my most = cherished=20 childhood memory!!!     :-)
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 BBReynolds@aol.com
To: lmatt@alltel.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Thursday, December 19, = 2002 10:19=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR = memories

In a = message dated=20 12/19/2002 9:40:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, lmatt@alltel.net writes: =


I got an American Flyer K4s with three freight cars and = a=20 caboose for Christmas when I was 5.

Hate to be a = "rivet=20 counter" to your memory, but the American Flyer PRR
Pacific was = based on=20 the K5. Ours was purchased c. 1950, and in was
still stored in its = original corrugated cardboard roll when it was destroyed
in a = flood while=20 in use for a second generation, c. 1970. I remember a
major = project of=20 replacing the original hook couplers with knuckles sometime
in the = late=20 1950's, so that newer cars could be added to the by then rather =
large=20 collection.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, = Glenside=20 PA ------=_NextPart_000_003B_01C2A872.BBB47860-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 22:19:00 -0500 Howdy Bruce: Your roundhouse foreman, hostler, grease monkeys and car knockers are loving you for this little exercise - and bringing every piece of brass in the Philadelphia division to this little domain to boot too! Disconnect an AB set of some other roads passenger engines, turn only the A unit (was ACL fussy about the A and B end of a B unit? How about ACL's traveling ARF - whose qualified to run an E6 on the PRR?) Put all the MU, Steam, and air lines back together (yea I know you said June of "44) but I bet the steam lines are connected between the two units. Plus you get to turn all those seats! Wouldn't it be easier to turn the whole set on the bridge wye? I looked at your plan - by the way it looks great, but you don't have the bridge in - looks like maybe some more design time? I've just finished my first overall design for the same general area - only 20 to 30 years latter. When my wife says that she thinks those UP engines with the nice wings on the front would add a dash of color to all that black, I say no way - What's that dear - time to wash the dishes - you bet I'll be right there! Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com.trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] H31c Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 23:32:43 -0500 Bill Lane asked: I am wondering if the H31c in original Shadow Keystone was Freight Car Red or black? I am looking at the photo on Pg. 67 of John Teichmoeller's hopper book. If the car is FCR, it does not appear to have a shadow on the keystone. Freight car color until March 1957, then black. PRR 221183, the car in the Teichmoeller book, shows a reweigh date of 1955 and a photo date of 1963 - I agree that the shadow on the keystone is not visible, something I've noticed on other black and white photos of other red hopper cars (PRR 189470, Class H21A, Teichmoeller, p 45 - the shadow is visible, but just). It's also possible that the car was repainted in 1957 and not reweighed, somewhat unlikely, given this car has gone 8 years without reweighing, which is longer than the normal 48 or 60 months. The Morning Sun color guides only show one Class H31C hopper car (PRR Color Guide Vol 1, p 58) - PRR 221080, 3/6/1976, Derry PA. Car is painted black with PK lettering. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 04:50:09 -0800 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] Another Christmas... Another Christmas, and the Pennsylvania Railroad seems so far away. Was it really that many Christmases ago that a Lionel 6-8-6 (number 671) first graced our living room floor? Like most kids, I got much more satisfaction out of my S2 than the PRR ever got out of the large one. Was it that many Christmases ago that relatives arrived on the Congressional, and were met at the real Penn Station in New York? Was it that many Christmases ago that we saw GG1s gliding through spotty snow, across the aromatic Jersey Meadows, mixed with Tuscan MU sets and older electrics? It was indeed many Christmases ago, when in some facilities; shops, offices, stations, etc.; Penn folks put up some Christmas decorations; even lights and in one lonely tower, there proudly stood a small, scrawny reject from a Christmas tree lot. The season was not forgotten. Nor is the railroad. And now some of the people who are interested in the history and configuration of the Standard Railroad of the World, were not around to witness its painful desecration, demise and downfall at the hands of scoundrels to whom it was worth more dead than alive. We welcome them. But the Penn people remembered Christmas, and each other, and the God that they knew oversaw their railroad. Ushers, Trainmen, Conductors, and passengers, all seemed brighter, more alive, more cheerful at Christmas; it seemed easier for human beings to relate to each other. It's a spirit that continues today, of course; but there's a special memory of the days of the Keystone. The people made the railroad a special place at Christmas. In our hearts at Christmas, maybe the PRR isn't so far away after all. You have my best wishes for a Merry Christmas, Happy Holiday (as appropriate) and a New Year that brings you and yours more than you ever thought it could. Peter Weiglin San Mateo, CA **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is opinionated, proprietary, privileged, confidential or terminally heartwarming. This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person or group to which it is addressed. If you are breathing, you are considered an intended recipient. If you are not breathing, please call 9-1-1 immediately. Note that some contents of this or similar e-mails may cause one or more readers to take offense at its content or style, or reference to a railroad, model, technique, or product with which the recipient might not be as enamored as the sender. This is called "opinion," which in most cases is not unlawful. Should the recipient not share that opinion, he or she is perfectly free to offer and defend any countervailing argument, no matter how stupid. The sender accepts no liability for any consequential damages brought about by this communication, including damage caused through rapturous agreement with any of the sentiments herein. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 23:32:43 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] H31c Bill Lane asked: I am wondering if the H31c in original Shadow Keystone was Freight Car Red or black? I am looking at the photo on Pg. 67 of John Teichmoeller's hopper book. If the car is FCR, it does not appear to have a shadow on the keystone. Freight car color until March 1957, then black. PRR 221183, the car in the Teichmoeller book, shows a reweigh date of 1955 and a photo date of 1963 - I agree that the shadow on the keystone is not visible, something I've noticed on other black and white photos of other red hopper cars (PRR 189470, Class H21A, Teichmoeller, p 45 - the shadow is visible, but just). It's also possible that the car was repainted in 1957 and not reweighed, somewhat unlikely, given this car has gone 8 years without reweighing, which is longer than the normal 48 or 60 months. The Morning Sun color guides only show one Class H31C hopper car (PRR Color Guide Vol 1, p 58) - PRR 221080, 3/6/1976, Derry PA. Car is painted black with PK lettering. Ben Hom "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 09:25:13 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Pennsy S Models Update Hi All, We have updated our website www.pennsysmodels.com for our S Scale X-29. Please give it a look. There are some new detail photos on the pilot model page. We realize that it has far too long to get this project to completion. However, I can say with complete confidence that we are going to produce the cars as I have envisioned, without compromise, and detail for detail. We were not satisfied with our builder's ability to make castings. So, we have been contracting with American brass master makers and casters at an EXTREME added cost to compliment the awesome sheet metal skills of our builder. We still have room for your order for any of the versions. Here is the PDF file for the order form. http://www.pennsysmodels.com/X29%20Order%20Form.pdf We are approximately 80% sold out at this point. Contact us at info@pennsysmodels.com with any questions you have. Dan and I would like to thank you for your patience, and wish you Happy Holidays Thank You, Bill Lane Dan Mastrobuono Pennsy S Models ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 11:14:09 -0500 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_sMN4sBR2RFn77w8HVVVOkw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Chris Baker wrote: ...."In all of my Budd Company documentation I could not find many 46-seat coaches. There are many 50-seat cars, a number of 40- and 44-seat cars, lots of 52-seat cars and a healthy dose of 46-seat dome/coaches. There were only three 46-seat coaches listed - all belonging to the Atlantic Coast Line (cars #221 - 223), and also containing a stewardess' room. These cars were built by Budd in 1946-47 and used in New York-to-Florida service on the road's Champion trains. The Walthers narrative description of the 46 seat coaches describes then as having 48 seats, of which "46 are assigned to passengers, while two are held for the Conductor and Car Attendant". (Paraphrased from the ad in MR). So actually it is a 48 seat car. Most coaches had seating capacity divided by 4, of course there were always exceptions. The only 48 seaters I recall operating on former PRR territory were the Lightweight coaches on the Southerner/Southern Crescent, but these were built by PS. Budd did build some 36 (40?) seat coaches for the C&O's "Chessie" trainsets. (There was a large lounge on one end of the car instead of revenue seats), and these cars were acquired by the ACL. But I don't think these cars resemble the Walthers cars at all. Many times model manufacturers base their offerings on prototype manufacturers origional plans, and concept drawings, rather than modified or customized production units. Thus the model of the "----------" does not resemble the actual prototype. For instance, the contemporary Acela trainsets contain numerous modifications that were installed after production but prior to delivery. Each trainset is unique in configuration as no two are the same, (Which is partially why the program has so many problems connected with it). JW --Boundary_(ID_sMN4sBR2RFn77w8HVVVOkw) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
 
Chris Baker wrote: ...."In all of my Budd Company documentation I could not find many 46-seat coaches.  There are many 50-seat cars, a number of 40- and 44-seat cars, lots of 52-seat cars and a healthy dose of 46-seat dome/coaches.  There were only three 46-seat coaches listed - all belonging to the Atlantic Coast Line (cars #221 - 223), and also containing a stewardess' room.  These cars were built by Budd in 1946-47 and used in New York-to-Florida service on the road's Champion trains.

The Walthers narrative description of the 46 seat coaches describes then as having 48 seats, of which "46 are assigned to passengers, while two are held for the Conductor and Car Attendant". (Paraphrased from the ad in MR). So actually it is a 48 seat car. Most coaches had seating capacity divided by 4, of course there were always exceptions. The only 48 seaters I recall operating on former PRR territory were the Lightweight coaches on the Southerner/Southern Crescent, but these were built by PS.  Budd did build some 36 (40?) seat coaches for the C&O's "Chessie" trainsets. (There was a large lounge on one end of the car instead of revenue seats), and these cars were acquired by the ACL. But  I don't think these cars resemble the Walthers cars at all. 
 
Many times model manufacturers base their offerings on prototype manufacturers origional plans, and concept drawings, rather than modified or customized production units. Thus the model of the "----------" does not resemble the actual prototype. For instance, the contemporary Acela trainsets contain numerous modifications that were installed after production but prior to delivery. Each trainset is unique in configuration as no two are the same, (Which is partially why the program has so many problems connected with it).
 
JW
--Boundary_(ID_sMN4sBR2RFn77w8HVVVOkw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 19:16:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] B6sb Update Lew, List, Been busy continuing work on the PRR B6sb all week long. Some real progress is being made. Many many hours are also involved. I have taken some more photos of the Loco as the progress continues. They can be seen at the url's that follow. Among the views you will see is the addition of major structual parts (walk way etc) and a handful of aplliances and detail work. Still no major problem encountered that has given me fits! Some tedius work such as the Pop Valves, Whistle and Power Reverse are the latest additions. All those scratch built from Brass and or Styrene or a combination of both. The Domes were salvaged from an aristo 0-4-0 but needed modified to look appropriate for the 0-6-0. Still awaiting rivits (about 800) for the cab. With the addition of Railings, Airpump and a bit more piping, I can soon jump to the Chassis. Here are 10 photos of the recent progress. The last 2 show what the B6sb looks like as of right now. Thanks, Gary http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000723.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000724.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000726.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000729.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000730.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000731.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000746.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000747.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000748.jpg Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] B6sb Update Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 11:47:36 -0000 Garry, Your model looks like it's going to be superb! Patrick Grace www.prr.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 12:16 AM Subject: [PRR] B6sb Update > Lew, List, > > Been busy continuing work on the PRR B6sb all week long. Some real > progress is being made. Many many hours are also involved. I have taken > some more photos of the Loco as the progress continues. They can be seen > at the url's that follow. Among the views you will see is the addition > of major structual parts (walk way etc) and a handful of aplliances and > detail work. Still no major problem encountered that has given me fits! > Some tedius work such as the Pop Valves, Whistle and Power Reverse are > the latest additions. All those scratch built from Brass and or Styrene > or a combination of both. The Domes were salvaged from an aristo 0-4-0 > but needed modified to look appropriate for the 0-6-0. Still awaiting > rivits (about 800) for the cab. With the addition of Railings, Airpump > and a bit more piping, I can soon jump to the Chassis. > > Here are 10 photos of the recent progress. The last 2 show what the > B6sb looks like as of right now. Thanks, Gary > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000723.jpg > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000724.jpg > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000726.jpg > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000729.jpg > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000730.jpg > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000731.jpg > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000746.jpg > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000747.jpg > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000748.jpg > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 11:47:40 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] More Big Four bridge questions In a message dated 12/21/02 10:02:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 10:39:19 EST > From: Midlandblb@cs.com > Subject: Re: Colgate Clock, Jeffersonville IN > > Rick: > > Thanks for the come back. You also answered another question of mine; > whose > bridge was just east of the I65 bridge (currently "approachless"). Because the Big Four bridge is obvious alonside the Interstate bridge spanning the Ohio, I've received more than one panicky message asking when "the Pennsy bridge" was abandoned (wrong bridge). The NYC's operations once off their B&O trackage rights were called the "Louisville & Jeffersonville Bridge & Railroad Company" (wow, they used to put all the initials on the tenders of their switchers). Since L&JB&RRCo is quite a mouthful, and since it was controlled through the CCC&StL (Big Four), the whole thing (the bridge, its approaches, and a yard each in Jeffersonville and Louisville) was called "the Big Four" around here. But it > > brings up (unfortunately) a couple of other questions: > > 1. What roads (besides NYC) used this Big Four bridge? There was a trolley or interurban that once had rights on the Big Four Bridge. No other steam road used it. This was part of the reason it was abandoned by PC in favor of the Pennsy bridge. IIRC, the Preston Street Yard remnant on the Louisville end of the bridge operated on for a little while in PC years after the bridge link was dismembered. This tiny yard was there mostly because of a contract to service C&O trains coming in Ashland-Winchester-Lexington and then on L&N trackage rights Lexington-Frankfort-Shelbyville-Louisville. Of course, besides the Pennsy and the NYC, all steam roads approaching from the Indiana side (B&O, Monon, Southern) had long used the Kentucky & Indiana Terminal Railroad, and thus crossed the river on the K&IT bridge from New Albany IN (below the Falls of the Ohio). > > 2. What the heck are the plans for the monster? > > Thanks. > > Les > Problematical. It would have been demolished with its approaches if that hadn't constituted a navigation hazard. Despite the periodic civic calls to turn the Big Four Bridge into apartments, a pedestrian walkway, or who knows what, I'd bet it stands there and rusts until something gives way. Then its demolition will have to be undertaken, river traffic or not. Sad, but it's just one more surviving artifact of a time when expensive, solidly-built civil engineering works were the prudent (and profitable) way to run a railroad. At least the Pennsy Bridge (a mile long across the Falls and rebuilt with double track in 1917) is used every day by successor shortline Louisville & Indiana, and also by CSX industrial jobs working north of the river. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 11:47:40 EST Subject: [PRR] More Big Four bridge questions --part1_198.12b9bb52.2b3746ac_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/21/02 10:02:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 10:39:19 EST > From: Midlandblb@cs.com > Subject: Re: Colgate Clock, Jeffersonville IN > > Rick: > > Thanks for the come back. You also answered another question of mine; > whose > bridge was just east of the I65 bridge (currently "approachless"). Because the Big Four bridge is obvious alonside the Interstate bridge spanning the Ohio, I've received more than one panicky message asking when "the Pennsy bridge" was abandoned (wrong bridge). The NYC's operations once off their B&O trackage rights were called the "Louisville & Jeffersonville Bridge & Railroad Company" (wow, they used to put all the initials on the tenders of their switchers). Since L&JB&RRCo is quite a mouthful, and since it was controlled through the CCC&StL (Big Four), the whole thing (the bridge, its approaches, and a yard each in Jeffersonville and Louisville) was called "the Big Four" around here. But it > > brings up (unfortunately) a couple of other questions: > > 1. What roads (besides NYC) used this Big Four bridge? There was a trolley or interurban that once had rights on the Big Four Bridge. No other steam road used it. This was part of the reason it was abandoned by PC in favor of the Pennsy bridge. IIRC, the Preston Street Yard remnant on the Louisville end of the bridge operated on for a little while in PC years after the bridge link was dismembered. This tiny yard was there mostly because of a contract to service C&O trains coming in Ashland-Winchester-Lexington and then on L&N trackage rights Lexington-Frankfort-Shelbyville-Louisville. Of course, besides the Pennsy and the NYC, all steam roads approaching from the Indiana side (B&O, Monon, Southern) had long used the Kentucky & Indiana Terminal Railroad, and thus crossed the river on the K&IT bridge from New Albany IN (below the Falls of the Ohio). > > 2. What the heck are the plans for the monster? > > Thanks. > > Les > Problematical. It would have been demolished with its approaches if that hadn't constituted a navigation hazard. Despite the periodic civic calls to turn the Big Four Bridge into apartments, a pedestrian walkway, or who knows what, I'd bet it stands there and rusts until something gives way. Then its demolition will have to be undertaken, river traffic or not. Sad, but it's just one more surviving artifact of a time when expensive, solidly-built civil engineering works were the prudent (and profitable) way to run a railroad. At least the Pennsy Bridge (a mile long across the Falls and rebuilt with double track in 1917) is used every day by successor shortline Louisville & Indiana, and also by CSX industrial jobs working north of the river. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_198.12b9bb52.2b3746ac_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/21/02 10:02:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 2
   Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 10:39:19 EST
   From: Midlandblb@cs.com
Subject: Re: Colgate Clock, Jeffersonville IN

Rick:

Thanks for the come back.  You also answered another question of mine; whose
bridge was just east of the I65 bridge (currently "approachless").


Because the Big Four bridge is obvious alonside the Interstate bridge spanning the Ohio, I've received more than one panicky message asking when "the Pennsy bridge" was abandoned (wrong bridge).  The NYC's operations once off their B&O trackage rights were called the "Louisville & Jeffersonville Bridge & Railroad Company" (wow, they used to put all the initials on the tenders of their switchers).  Since L&JB&RRCo is quite a mouthful, and since it was controlled through the CCC&StL (Big Four), the whole thing (the bridge, its approaches, and a yard each in Jeffersonville and Louisville) was called "the Big Four" around here.


But it

brings up (unfortunately) a couple of other questions:

1. What roads (besides NYC) used this Big Four bridge?


There was a trolley or interurban that once had rights on the Big Four Bridge.  No other steam road used it.  This was part of the reason it was abandoned by PC in favor of the Pennsy bridge. 

IIRC, the Preston Street Yard remnant on the Louisville end of the bridge operated on for a little while in PC years after the bridge link was dismembered.  This tiny yard was there mostly because of a contract to service C&O trains coming in Ashland-Winchester-Lexington and then on L&N trackage rights Lexington-Frankfort-Shelbyville-Louisville.

Of course, besides the Pennsy and the NYC, all steam roads approaching from the Indiana side (B&O, Monon, Southern) had long used the Kentucky & Indiana Terminal Railroad, and thus crossed the river on the K&IT bridge from New Albany IN (below the Falls of the Ohio).


2. What the heck are the plans for the monster?

Thanks.

Les


Problematical.  It would have been demolished with its approaches if that hadn't constituted a navigation hazard.

Despite the periodic civic calls to turn the Big Four Bridge into apartments, a pedestrian walkway, or who knows what, I'd bet it stands there and rusts until something gives way.  Then its demolition will have to be undertaken, river traffic or not.

Sad, but it's just one more surviving artifact of a time when expensive, solidly-built civil engineering works were the prudent (and profitable) way to run a railroad.  At least the Pennsy Bridge (a mile long across the Falls and rebuilt with double track in 1917) is used every day by successor shortline Louisville & Indiana, and also by CSX industrial jobs working north of the river.

                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_198.12b9bb52.2b3746ac_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 14:06:27 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] B6sb Update Gary, Excellent - will look for this at the 2004 annual meeting in Cincinnati. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] More Big Four bridge questions Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 21:57:51 +0000 I read thirty years ago in Trains about someeone at one of the railroads commenting that were it not for the weight of steam engines and the subseqsequent infrastructure required that the railroads would never have been able to increase car loadings to the point they were at thirty years ago and there was no way they could have afforded to upgrade the bridges let alone the track. > In a message dated 12/21/02 10:02:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, > PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 10:39:19 EST > > From: Midlandblb@cs.com > > Subject: Re: Colgate Clock, Jeffersonville IN > > > > Rick: > > > > Thanks for the come back. You also answered another question of mine; > > whose > > bridge was just east of the I65 bridge (currently "approachless"). > > Because the Big Four bridge is obvious alonside the Interstate bridge > spanning the Ohio, I've received more than one panicky message asking when > "the Pennsy bridge" was abandoned (wrong bridge). The NYC's operations once > off their B&O trackage rights were called the "Louisville & Jeffersonville > Bridge & Railroad Company" (wow, they used to put all the initials on the > tenders of their switchers). Since L&JB&RRCo is quite a mouthful, and since > it was controlled through the CCC&StL (Big Four), the whole thing (the > bridge, its approaches, and a yard each in Jeffersonville and Louisville) was > called "the Big Four" around here. > > > But it > > > > brings up (unfortunately) a couple of other questions: > > > > 1. What roads (besides NYC) used this Big Four bridge? > > There was a trolley or interurban that once had rights on the Big Four > Bridge. No other steam road used it. This was part of the reason it was > abandoned by PC in favor of the Pennsy bridge. > > IIRC, the Preston Street Yard remnant on the Louisville end of the bridge > operated on for a little while in PC years after the bridge link was > dismembered. This tiny yard was there mostly because of a contract to > service C&O trains coming in Ashland-Winchester-Lexington and then on L&N > trackage rights Lexington-Frankfort-Shelbyville-Louisville. > > Of course, besides the Pennsy and the NYC, all steam roads approaching from > the Indiana side (B&O, Monon, Southern) had long used the Kentucky & Indiana > Terminal Railroad, and thus crossed the river on the K&IT bridge from New > Albany IN (below the Falls of the Ohio). > > > > > 2. What the heck are the plans for the monster? > > > > Thanks. > > > > Les > > > > Problematical. It would have been demolished with its approaches if that > hadn't constituted a navigation hazard. > > Despite the periodic civic calls to turn the Big Four Bridge into apartments, > a pedestrian walkway, or who knows what, I'd bet it stands there and rusts > until something gives way. Then its demolition will have to be undertaken, > river traffic or not. > > Sad, but it's just one more surviving artifact of a time when expensive, > solidly-built civil engineering works were the prudent (and profitable) way > to run a railroad. At least the Pennsy Bridge (a mile long across the Falls > and rebuilt with double track in 1917) is used every day by successor > shortline Louisville & Indiana, and also by CSX industrial jobs working north > of the river. > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West ue ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 21:46:35 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: RE: [PRR] 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists On Fri, 20 Dec 2002, Wayne S. Betty wrote: > Howdy Bruce: > > Your roundhouse foreman, hostler, grease monkeys and car knockers are loving > you for this little exercise - and bringing every piece of brass in the > Philadelphia division to this little domain to boot too! Can you hear them yellin on the phone?? > Disconnect an AB set of some other roads passenger engines, turn only the A > unit (was ACL fussy about the A and B end of a B unit? How about ACL's > traveling ARF - whose qualified to run an E6 on the PRR?) Yeah, you'll need the ACL crew, plus a PRR guide > Put all the MU, Steam, and air lines back together (yea I know you said June > of "44) but I bet the steam lines are connected between the two units. > Plus you get to turn all those seats! > Wouldn't it be easier to turn the whole set on the bridge wye? Um, what wye? ;^) If you're talking about the wrightsville bridge, it only connected on to one side (the east) on the Columbia side. I'm not sure the E6 could make the radius, it was PRETTY tight. With the passengers aboard the train, I doubt you'd turn the seats, but you know, I wonder if they would turn the train on the wye at Perryville, drag it backward to Columbia and then haul it forward from Columbia on. There is certainly precident for movements through Columbia to bypass wrecks between Perryville and Philly. > I looked at your plan - by the way it looks great, but you don't have the > bridge in - looks like maybe some more design time? Safe Harbor? Its there, just not, draw on the plan, since I was using a handicapped piece of software (so far, the only knock I support on my beloved Macs is that there ain't a decent piece of layout design software!) > When my wife says that she thinks those UP engines with the nice wings on > the front would add a dash of color to all that black, I say no way - > What's that dear - time to wash the dishes - you bet I'll be right there! Yeah, there's no accounting for taste. My little girl Brianna (age 4.5) is demanding that I paint the Walthers Russel plow I'm detailing in the YELLER PRR MOW scheme, and worse still, she won't let me strip the pretty blue CR N5 I got cheap! Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 00:12:04 -0500 From: "Charles Ring, W3NU" Subject: [PRR] scoundrels Peter Weiglin wrote: > ree lot. The season was not forgotten. > > Nor is the railroad. And now some of the people who are interested in the > history and configuration of the Standard Railroad of the World, were not around > to witness its painful desecration, demise and downfall at the hands of > scoundrels to whom it was worth more dead than alive. We welcome them. Those despicable scoundrels seem to have been a model for many more of their ilk in more recent years. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Video Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 07:25:58 -0500 There is an ad in the winter issue of Classic Trains for an outfit called Revelation Video of Tallmadge, OH advertising a video on the Broadway Limited - complete story from 1902-1995. Has anyone seen or own this video that can comment on its content and quality? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 07:59:45 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] B6sb Update Nice work -- and lots of it! What are the brass (?) "rivets" on the smokebox? Jim McDaniel, envious in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 09:09:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Video In a message dated 12/23/02 6:34:02 AM Central Standard Time, parkvarieties@provide.net writes: << There is an ad in the winter issue of Classic Trains for an outfit called Revelation Video of Tallmadge, OH advertising a video on the Broadway Limited - complete story from 1902-1995. Has anyone seen or own this video that can comment on its content and quality? >> Yes, I have it. The footage of the last run is OK, being current video, as you might expect. I haven't looked at it in some time. Mainly because, as I remember, the archival footage is not all that great, either subject-wise or photographically. I rank it in the bottom 10% of the 100 or so videos I own. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Video Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 10:51:33 -0500 Seems to me I've seen this one. Revelation assembles videos from 8mm movie film and video submitted by fans/customers - some quite good, some not so. The Broadway video is a collection of Broadway footage over the years from these sources. Some of Revelation's stuff is pretty good, and is certainly not stuff you'll see elsewhere, and their prices are reasonable. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "parkvarieties" To: "PRR- Talk" Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 7:25 AM Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Video > There is an ad in the winter issue of Classic Trains for an outfit called > Revelation Video of Tallmadge, OH advertising a video on the Broadway > Limited - complete story from 1902-1995. Has anyone seen or own this video > that can comment on its content and quality? > Thanks. > Frank Brua > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FredAbend@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 14:10:43 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists Bruce and List, Here's the consist for Atlantic Coast Line West Coast Champion, #91, leaving Richmond on 18 Nov 1944 (Saturday): ACL 517: E6A ACL 754: E6B ACL 514: E6A ACL 506: Express ACL 2: Postal ACL 1618: Express ACL 677: Baggage-coach ACL 1116: Coach ACL Albany: Diner ACL Virginia: Buffet Lounge ACL 1129: Coach ACL 1044: Coach ACL 1127: Coach ACL 1128: Coach Cape Fortunas: 10 section, 1 D. R., 2 Compts. Commodore: 6 Single B. R., Dining Lounge Poplar Summit: 6 section, 6 Double B. R. Winthrop College: 10 section, 1 Compt., 2 Double B. R. ACL Charleston: Diner Puerto Rico: 10 section, 1 D. R., 2 Compts. Algonquin Park: 8 sections. 1 D. R., 2 Compts. One event similar to the one you hypothesize for Columbia I experienced over 26 years ago in Columbia on the night of 1 Dec 1976 (Wednesday). Somewhere between Perryville and Philadelphia something happened that caused at least five Amtrak Northeast Corridor passenger trains to detour through Columbia. I never did find out the cause. The standard operation was for a train to arrive in Columbia, the power run around, couple up again, and head out of town on the appropriate route (Port Road (ultimately) for southbounds and A&S for northbounds). The railroad brought car inspectors down from Harrisburg to assure that everything was OK before departing. You could run your operation similarly. With an ABA you need only do a run-around. As Columbia Yard was still open car inspectors would probably have been more readily available. One of the trains was #87, the Champion, with GG1s 910 (ex-PRR 4910) and 902 (ex-PRR 4899). Amtrak also brought a GG1 down for protection and spotted it on Manor Backoff. So, Bruce, for only the cost of another ACL E6A and however many cars you need (18 maximum) you have a wonderful excuse to spot a G on the Backoff. The wreck crew had better clean the source up quick 'cause otherwise you're going to have a lot more south-of-Washington trains to model! :-) Everyone have a Merry Christmas! Fred Abendschein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: [PRR] Re: Hat Badges Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 14:35:20 -0500 I recently acquired a PRR hat badge. It exactly the same shape as a Conductor hat badge that I have. This one is "USHER". Who was an usher and what did they do? Anyone out there collect hat badges?? What were the other titles if you will, I remember seeing "Stationmaster" at the Newark, NJ PRR station in the '50's. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 14:48:46 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Hat Badges Why they "Ushed" of course, just like they do in theaters. I believe they were the people who guided passengers at stations; checked their tickets as they entered the platform stairs, and told them where to stand for the car they were assigned to. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Weldon Greiger wrote: > I recently acquired a PRR hat badge. It exactly the same shape as a > Conductor hat badge that I have. > > This one is "USHER". > > Who was an usher and what did they do? > > Anyone out there collect hat badges?? > > What were the other titles if you will, I remember seeing "Stationmaster" at > the Newark, NJ PRR station in the '50's. > > All the best to you and yours Weldon > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: [PRR] RE: [FC] PRR G29 c/d or G30a Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 12:06:21 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2AABE.C317F2F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all; Have any of you ever done, or seen done, either a PRR G29c/d or G30a? I understand that Sunshine did not do this one, but I have seen one of these somewhere. The war emegency versions with wood replaced with steel? Have any of you done a G30 from the new Tichy war emergency 52'6" gon kit? What did it entail? What changes need to be made to the brake arrangement? Any thoughts on these gons? Thanks! Elden Oh, and what is the upshot with the recent discussions on the G38 and G39? Any info would be appreciated! ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2AABE.C317F2F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [FC] PRR G29 c/d or G30a

Hi all;  Have any of you ever done, or seen = done, either a PRR G29c/d or G30a?  I understand that Sunshine did = not do this one, but I have seen one of these somewhere.  The war = emegency versions with wood replaced with steel?  Have any of you = done a G30 from the new Tichy war emergency 52'6" gon kit?  = What did it entail?  What changes need to be made to the brake = arrangement?  Any thoughts on these gons?

Thanks!
Elden

Oh, and what is the upshot with the recent = discussions on the G38 and G39?  Any info would be = appreciated!

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2AABE.C317F2F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 15:12:36 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists Bruce, Thanx for the credit. I guess I'm now obligated to answer some of the questions if I can ;-) 1) Are these even worth looking at? Yes the Rivarossi cars are nicely done models of something. 2) Is the Riv car a prewar Budd? No, they are a post war Budd as identified by the smooth letterboard and rounded vestibule door. Typical owners of such cars were PRR, CPR, ATSF, UP(?) 3) Any idea if the SAL coach work for an ACL coach? If you mean the new Walthers SAL coach, it's very close. I use them for ACL. I painter the roof and trucks black. The ACL cars were 54 seat, not 52. So there is half a window difference. But they ar post war cars and not the kind you need for the original Champs. Have you looked at the new Eastern Car works Empire State Express coach? Someone posted photos of the car parts recently. I now regret not having saved them. They are Budd of the right era, but I don't know how close the window arrangement is. I know the era is right because I always remember how annoyed the NYC's marketing department was at not being able to get front page coverage when the train was inaugurated on Dec 7 1941 ! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Bruce F. Smith" wrote: > Hello again, > > Thanks to Andy Miller and others, followed by some web site searching, I > found that the official roster of the 1939 Champion was made up of 3 > identical trainsets, one supplied by FEC and two by ACL: > > baggage-dorm-coach > coach (60 seat) > coach (60 seat) > diner > coach (60 seat) > coach (52 seat w/hostess) > tavern-lounge-observation (round end) > > Interestingly, the Champion got the name Tamiami Champion in 1941, and lost > it in 1944. Also in 1944, the summer version of the Champion carried > heavyweight Pullmans (Branchline...someday my cars will come...). > > I also found that the ACL-SAL Historical Society offers a window insert for > a Rivarossi car for the 1939 ACL Baggage-dorm-coach, as well as the 1939 > SAL Silver Meteor 60 seat coach. > > 1) Are these even worth looking at? > 2) Is the Riv car a prewar Budd? > 3) Any idea if the SAL coach work for an ACL coach? > > Now what to do about the diner and observation.... > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 15:23:30 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Hat Badges Ushers were used in larger stations with multiple platform tracks and assisted passengers as required, giving directions, checking tickets, etc. They usually worked under the direction of the Station Master. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 14:31:47 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists On Mon, 23 Dec 2002, Andrew S. Miller wrote: > Have you looked at the new Eastern Car works Empire State Express coach? Someone > posted photos of the car parts recently. I now regret not having saved them. They > are Budd of the right era, but I don't know how close the window arrangement is. > I know the era is right because I always remember how annoyed the NYC's marketing > department was at not being able to get front page coverage when the train was > inaugurated on Dec 7 1941 ! The ECW coaches sound like a possibility! As usual, they haven't updated their web site to reflect it either. I'm left wondering if I couldn't use it, much as the Riv coach was intended, as a core for the window strips from the ACL-SAL historical society. The possibility to add a PRR P85R or RF&P coach doing the same thing with a bit o'bashing is an appealing one as well. Dang, this is getting to be an involved project! Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 15:43:00 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists From: John Sheets the book, "Trackside, Philadelphia" has a photo of a PRR switcher pulling several brand new ACL cars just out of the Budd Company plant on Hunting Park Avenue John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 15:47:33 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Re: Budd RDC's From: John Sheets > I know the PRR never bought any RDC's but did they ever test them and where? > > How long were they on the system? It seems strange that with Budd > headquartered in Philadelphia that the PRR didn't support them in the > venture. Of course, while the PRR did not buy RDC's they did purchase a large number of Budd passenger cars, especially the Congo cars, and lastly, the Metroliners from Budd Company, although they really did not get into service fully until PC John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 18:07:18 -0500 From: Subject: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Closed to Visitors I visited Altoona on Saturday and was disappointed that both the Railroaders Memorial Museum and Horseshoe Curve are closed. I assume that this is a seasonal closure due to the museum's financial problems. Obviously an unfortunate situation, especially during the holiday period. Although others have criticized what the museum did in redeveloping Horseshoe Curve, I thought that it was good to create more of a destination for visitors. The shorter hours were unfortunate, but understandable. However, now that they cannot affort to staff the site, I believe that this is not acceptable to close the site to people that are willing to climb the steps. The parking lot was gated, so it was not possible to park. While there are other good places to watch trains in the area, this most sacred of sites. This is like closing a national park. I did not see this anywhere in the railroad press. Does anyone have additional information? Thanks, Doug Nelson P.S. I was aware of the museum's problems and was considering a membership or donation, and making some purchases in the store on my visit. Unfortunately, that was not possible either. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 18:55:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Closed to Visitors Hello Doug.......... The Horseshoe Curve "officially" closes every winter for the last few years. But railfans still manage to get up in the park area. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Rowilki@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:31:25 EST Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh routing I've always been curious about how trains from west of Rochester destined toPitcairn yard were routed other than through Pennsylvania station. Can anyone help with that information? THANKS P S - excuse this red back ground - I can't figure out how to get rid of it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh routing Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 20:30:28 -0500 >I've always been curious about how trains from west of Rochester destined >toPitcairn yard were routed other than through Pennsylvania station. Can >anyone help with that information? THANKS > Ft. Wayne Line to CP BELLE, the across the OC Bridge to CP 2 (Esplen), east on the Mon Line to the Port Perry Bridge, then back across the river to CP WING and Pitcarin. All double-stacks and other high cars MUST go this "South Side" (of Pittsburgh) route. Terry Stuart The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP Railfan B&B 62 Beaver Street Fallston, PA 15066 www.forcomm.net/flagstop ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] Alliance, Ohio and Orville, Ohio yard charts Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 20:25:36 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C2AAC1.736C90A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gents; Just spent the day railfanning these two areas. Anybody know where to = get the charts of the old yards??? Earl Myers PRR, Canton District, 1944 ------=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C2AAC1.736C90A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gents;
 Just spent the day railfanning = these two=20 areas. Anybody know where to get the charts of the old = yards???
Earl Myers
PRR, Canton District,=20 1944
------=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C2AAC1.736C90A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 21:12:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists --part1_139.18dd57c0.2b391c82_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, while I know of no HO-scale match for a P85R, the Budd 52-seat coach is an exact match for a PRR P85E -- of which there were 10 cars. In addition, the Seaboard Air Line owned 7 cars and the RF&P owned 8. All were delivered to the respective owners from Budd in early 1947, and were used in the Silver Meteor trains. Chris Baker #1918 --part1_139.18dd57c0.2b391c82_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, while I know of no HO-scale match for a P85R, the Budd 52-seat coach is an exact match for a PRR P85E -- of which there were 10 cars.  In addition, the Seaboard Air Line owned 7 cars and the RF&P owned 8.  All were delivered to the respective owners from Budd in early 1947, and were used in the Silver Meteor trains.

Chris Baker #1918 --part1_139.18dd57c0.2b391c82_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 21:25:33 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists --part1_17a.140e63c2.2b391f9d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oops! I meant to say the WALTHERS Budd 52-seat model is an exact match for the ten PRR P85E's.... CBaker --part1_17a.140e63c2.2b391f9d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oops!  I meant to say the WALTHERS Budd 52-seat model is an exact match for the ten PRR P85E's....

CBaker --part1_17a.140e63c2.2b391f9d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] Canton District, Alliance and Prville Yards, 1944 Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 21:56:56 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_023B_01C2AACE.363AC000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gents; Anybody have any yard charts for these two areas back about WW2? Earl Myers Louisville, Ohio ------=_NextPart_000_023B_01C2AACE.363AC000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gents;
 Anybody have any yard charts for = these two=20 areas back about WW2?
Earl Myers
Louisville, = Ohio
------=_NextPart_000_023B_01C2AACE.363AC000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 23:40:09 -0500 From: AVRR436@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh routing Some of the traffic moved onto the Conemaugh Mainline at Federal Street, past CQ to UY where it took the west leg of the wye onto the Brilliant Branch. It then took the Brilliant Branch to CM where it joined the Pittsburgh Mainline and headed east to Pitcairn. Helpers were added to some of the trains at Sharpsburg for the steep climb up the Brilliant Branch. The bridge across the Allegheny River at UY was taken out of service sometime in the 1980's. In a message dated 12/23/2002 7:31:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rowilki writes: > > Subj: [PRR] Pittsburgh routing > Date: 12/23/2002 7:31:25 PM Eastern Standard Time > From: Rowilki@aol.com > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Sent from the Internet (Details) > > > > > I've always been curious about how trains from west of Rochester destined > toPitcairn yard were routed other than through Pennsylvania station. Can > anyone help with that information? THANKS > > P S - excuse this red back ground - I can't figure out how to get rid of it. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 05:01:35 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C2AB09.88BC6AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris: As luck would have it, I just last night, numbered a Walthers 52 seat = coach for a P85R. Walthers decals, (which fell apart by the way), lead = you to believe that the cars are, indeed, P85R's. So here's my = question. Do you know the numbers for the P85E's? Thanks, Larry ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com=20 To: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu ; asmiller@mitre.org=20 Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists Well, while I know of no HO-scale match for a P85R, the Budd 52-seat = coach is an exact match for a PRR P85E -- of which there were 10 cars. = In addition, the Seaboard Air Line owned 7 cars and the RF&P owned 8. = All were delivered to the respective owners from Budd in early 1947, and = were used in the Silver Meteor trains. Chris Baker #1918=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C2AB09.88BC6AA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris:
 
As luck would have it, I just last = night, numbered=20 a Walthers 52 seat coach for a P85R.  Walthers decals, (which fell = apart by=20 the way), lead you to believe that the cars are, indeed, P85R's.  = So here's=20 my question.  Do you know the numbers for the P85E's?
 
Thanks,
 
Larry
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chrisandbelton2@aol.com
To: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu ; asmiller@mitre.org
Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 = 9:12=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: 1940s=20 PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists

Well, while I know of no HO-scale match for a = P85R, the=20 Budd 52-seat coach is an exact match for a PRR P85E -- of which there = were 10=20 cars.  In addition, the Seaboard Air Line owned 7 cars and the = RF&P=20 owned 8.  All were delivered to the respective owners from Budd = in early=20 1947, and were used in the Silver Meteor trains.

Chris Baker = #1918=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C2AB09.88BC6AA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 06:44:31 -0800 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] Ushers Yup - the Ushers guided passengers in large stations. The corresponding title (and hat badge) on the New York Central was "Gateman." Quite a few folks collect hat badges, it seems. Check out eBAY under "Railroadiana." Some modern kiddie badges infest that list, but there's a number of authentic relics there. Bring money. Peter Weiglin San Mateo, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 10:29:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Cab Interrior List, Anyone know of a photo showing the cab interrior/backhead of a B6sb? I thought sure there was one in my 1947 Locomotive Cyclopedia, but there wasn't. If anyone remembers seeing a photo of the B6sb backhead, please let me know what book, mag etc to look in. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Belmont branch Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 15:48:13 +0000 Did Reading transfers ever venture onto the PRR from the Belmont branch? If so what was their destination. What color were Reading cabeese before the yellow and green scheme? Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Belmont branch Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 11:05:41 -0500 The cabeese were a grimy boxcar red. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 10:48 AM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Belmont branch Did Reading transfers ever venture onto the PRR from the Belmont branch? If so what was their destination. What color were Reading cabeese before the yellow and green scheme? Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: howdy@qnet.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Cab Interrior Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 16:08:52 GMT Gary, There is an article on the B6SB in the Jan/Feb 1999 "S Gaugian" page 27. I don't know if there is a pic in there or not. Howdy > List, > > Anyone know of a photo showing the cab interrior/backhead of a B6sb? > I thought sure there was one in my 1947 Locomotive Cyclopedia, but there > wasn't. If anyone remembers seeing a photo of the B6sb backhead, please > let me know what book, mag etc to look in. Thanks, Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Q1 Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 17:32:38 +0000 PRR engines had a left hand lead so what was the lead on the rear engine. Since the engine was turned around did that make it a right hand lead or did they make the rear engine a right hand lead on the left side? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 13:06:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: 1940s PRR/RFP/ACL/FEC Champion consists --part1_1bf.18f66276.2b39fc38_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The PRR P85E cars were #4058 - 4067 inclusive, delivered March 1947. The Seaboard cars were #6215 - 6226 inclusive, delivered January - March 1947. The RF&P cars were #850 - 857 inclusive, delivered April 1947. All were delivered in unpainted natural stainless livery. The Pennsylvania cars had 'Pennsylvania' on their letterboards in traditional PRR lettering style but black letters on natural stainless background instead of gold on Tuscan background. The Walthers car comes painted correctly for the "as delivered" paint scheme. --part1_1bf.18f66276.2b39fc38_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The PRR P85E cars were #4058 - 4067 inclusive, delivered March 1947.
The Seaboard cars were #6215 - 6226 inclusive, delivered January - March 1947.
The RF&P cars were #850 - 857 inclusive, delivered April 1947.

All were delivered in unpainted natural stainless livery.  The Pennsylvania cars had 'Pennsylvania' on their letterboards in traditional PRR lettering style but black letters on natural stainless background instead of gold on Tuscan background.  The Walthers car comes painted correctly for the "as delivered" paint scheme. --part1_1bf.18f66276.2b39fc38_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 13:49:03 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] looking for Kris Kollar Kris., Please email me as I have lost your eamil address. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] Test Shots of the GG1 are on BLI website Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 14:59:11 -0500

Test shots of the GG1 are on the BLI website.
 
Eric Lauterbach
 
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 10:29:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Cab Interrior List, Anyone know of a photo showing the cab interrior/backhead of a B6sb? I thought sure there was one in my 1947 Locomotive Cyclopedia, but there wasn't. If anyone remembers seeing a photo of the B6sb backhead, please let me know what book, mag etc to look in. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Horseshoe Curve Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 17:27:51 -0500 I was told by the folks at the Horseshoe Curve park headquarters that for access to the curve outside regular visiting hours to just park off the roadway and walk up to the curve. The steps can be easily accessed around the right side of the building. However, they may have changed their policy, and do be careful in the winter as the steps can be slippery and you could lay there a long time before anyone finds you. However, this time of year the leaves are off the trees for good viewing. Merry Christmas! Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 09:57:28 +1100 From: "Mick Molloy" Subject: [PRR] Seasons Greetings Hello Everyone, Just a quick note to all my fellow Pennsyphiles..... Wishing you and your families a happy and safe Christmas/Holiday >From Mick, Eileen & the tribe (The Pennsy Downunder!) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 17:07:26 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - wire train car #495200 From: Beth Caples Does anyone out there have photo's or drawings of car #495200 ? It use to sit at the Harrisburg Station for years around the late 1970's - early 80's. I believe that it was a BP-70 combine that was converted to a MOW car. It also had round windows like the MP-54's on the A end of the car. B end ? Car was equipped with 6 wheel trucks and a cupola on the roof in the center of the car. Above the baggage end was a pantograph. I believe this car might have been used for wire inspection? Any info. would be greatly appreciated! John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 18:05:56 -0500 From: Rob Schoenberg Subject: [PRR] Standard MOW & signal plans Hi all, I'm looking for more Pennsy Standard MOW and Signal Plans to fill in holes on my website... If you don't already know, there's a pretty large collection of PRR standard MOW and signal plans on my website. (There are almost 700 MOW plans and 170 signal plans online!) MOW Plans: http://prr.railfan.net/standards Signal Plans: http://prr.railfan.net/signalstandards There are still a ton of plans that are missing and I'm looking to find them! A few missing plans are listed in the list of plans as "needed" but there are many more that aren't... If you have any plans that I'm missing or know where I can find more please e-mail me! Even if you only have one or two plans that are missing, every one helps! (The only plans I can't use are those from copyrighted books!) I want to say THANKS to Pat McKinney and Walter Staffa for supplying the bulk of the plans and to Gene Deimling and Mike O. Brown for filling in some holes! Also, if anyone has an original PRR plan book for sale, I'm looking for one for my collection! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Test Shots of the GG1 are on BLI website Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 23:05:29 +0000 My first impression is somewhat ho hum. The body sections in the area of the windows are incredibley thick and more reminiscent of the old Penn Line shell. The underside shows plans for two motors - that is good. Hopefully some more work will be done on the shell as it should be a good puller. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 19:10:02 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: [PRR] Holiday wishes --------------Boundary-00=_Q4FNG6G0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Merry Christmas to all. May the Joy of this special season be with= all of you and your families throughout the year. Jim Lash=20 --------------Boundary-00=_Q4FNG6G0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Merry Christmas to all.   &nb= sp;    May the Joy of this special season be with all= of you  and your families throughout the year.    Ji= m Lash 
--------------Boundary-00=_Q4FNG6G0000000000000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 17:27:51 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Horseshoe Curve I was told by the folks at the Horseshoe Curve park headquarters that for access to the curve outside regular visiting hours to just park off the roadway and walk up to the curve. The steps can be easily accessed around the right side of the building. However, they may have changed their policy, and do be careful in the winter as the steps can be slippery and you could lay there a long time before anyone finds you. However, this time of year the leaves are off the trees for good viewing. Merry Christmas! Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Subject: RE: [PRR] Test Shots of the GG1 are on BLI website Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 23:45:24 -0500 Picture: http://www.broadway-limited.com/gg1thumb/gg1sampleshots.jpg Humm. are the ends round (incorrect, like the penn line & AHM), or parabolic? Garry Spear -----Original Message----- From: Eric Lauterbach [SMTP:ealauterbach@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, December 24, 2002 2:59 PM To: prr-talk Subject: [PRR] Test Shots of the GG1 are on BLI website << File: ATT00000.htm >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Rowilki@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 12:28:42 EST Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh routing Thanks to everyone for the info on how freight trains off the Fort Wayne got through Pittsburgh to Pitcairn yard. This makes me think about hearing my father and his friends who were PRR engineers talk about taking trains to Pitcairn after W.W.II when the city was trying to clean up the air. There was one spot along the line where the city kept inspectors stationed waiting for a steam train to come by because the engine would be working hard and putting out a lot of smoke and if the engineer did not back off to reduce the smoke the inspector would cite the train for air pollution and the engineer would be called in for some kind of trial with the trainmaster and the RR would be fined. The problem was that if he backed off to much the train would not be able to maintain speed and possibly not make it over the grade without a pusher. As this being Christmas day I remember that during W.W.II and for sever years after we always had Christmas without my father as he and most other train service people were not allowed to "mark off" as the railroad maintained its full train schedule. How times and the economy have changed ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: [PRR] Re: Identify PRR M of W car Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 19:51:26 -0500 Is there a roster of PRR passenger cars converted to Maintenance of Way Service? Last week I observed a former PRR Pullman car which had been converted to M of W service, in Yellow. The car was on the Western Michigan shortline, Coopersville and Marne. The number was PRR 493827. Additional reporting marks were, RLSX 5180. Sorry it was too dark to photograph, but close enough to me to get back there within a few months to photograph. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] E7's Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 00:40:54 +0000 My understanding on PRR E7's was that they couldn't get enough air into the carbody (for combustion I assume) and added the second grill at the rear of the cab at the top and the three little openings toward the front under the first window. BUt looking at SP&S units in Mainline Modeler some had the second rear grill added and some didn't and none had the three little openings in the front. Was the PRR the only one to have a particular problem or how did other RR's solve the problem? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 01:18:17 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Identify PRR M of W car There are rosters out there but nothing complete. The car you saw 493827 was the ex PRR 8651 the La Reine . It was a 10 section 1 drawing room , 1 compartment car. It was leased to the PRR in Dec 1948 from Pullman and withdrawn from lease on June 1960. It was a plan 3973A diagram 63 lot 6300 car in Pullman classification. I show a picture in Pennsy Power 3 page 418. Hope this helps ---------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 20:41:25 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Cedco PRR calendar game Hi All, For the past 3 years, I have opened my new Cedco PRR calendar on Christmas morning with the following game. I flip through and within 5 seconds, try to guess the town where the photo was taken. I did pretty well this year. I had only one completely wrong. (FEB. 3 GG1) I thought it was Frankford Junction. My guess was written in the text of the caption for 3 more. (Close!) I had the rest correct. Try it yourself with the new one, or an old one. You CAN"T throw them out! Here is my on line holiday greeting. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/Xmas2002.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/XmasTree2002.jpg Happy Holidays, Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 07:24:23 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Identify PRR M of W car According to the markings the 493827 was assigned to a track gang (MW Department), but I can't make out the classification below the word "TRACK." If we could figure that out we would know what the car was used for. It looks like it might say "RS-32," which would make it a Recreation/Riding-Sleeping car for 32 men. But I can't be too sure from my copy of the printed photo if that's correct. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 10:18:38 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT-Back On The Air From: Jerry Britton Our upstream Internet service provider, Epix, was knocked off the net from approximately noon yesterday (12/25) until sometime overnight last night. As of this morning at 6:30 a.m., everything was working fine. (I hate when this happens over the holidays!) Hope everyone had a safe and happy holiday...back to chatting! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmaster ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 12:14:32 -0500 Subject: [PRR] DGLE Paint Mix For Use On Wood? From: Jerry Britton Has anyone experimented with paint mixes at national home centers (Lowe's, Home Depot, etc.) to try to make a DGLE (Dark Green Locomotive Enamel) mix for use on wood? I'm leaning towards using it on the fascia and exposed benchwork of my layout. I do have a PRRT&HS color drift card, but I figure most stores would look at it and say "That's black!" What does our esteemed color expert, Mr. Carl Izzo, have to say on the subject? (Not to shun our "esteemed model color expert, Dr. Bruce Smith!) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 11:51:29 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Identify PRR M of W car From: aurora7@juno.com Another great addition would be a roster of PRR steam tenders which saw second lives in M of W yellow or as storage bunkers. How many of these still exist? Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society." -Mark Twain ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] DGLE Paint Mix For Use On Wood? Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 12:35:07 -0500 Jerry, Most full-service paint stores will color match your sample with a computer color reader. I would suggest going a little "greener" than DGLE (but not much) for the fascia and be sure to apply it over a good primer. I use Zinzer 1-2-3. Don't forget the bronze gold pin striping :-). Jerry Breon Reading, PA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 12:14 PM Subject: [PRR] DGLE Paint Mix For Use On Wood? > Has anyone experimented with paint mixes at national home centers (Lowe's, > Home Depot, etc.) to try to make a DGLE (Dark Green Locomotive Enamel) mix > for use on wood? > > I'm leaning towards using it on the fascia and exposed benchwork of my > layout. I do have a PRRT&HS color drift card, but I figure most stores would > look at it and say "That's black!" > > What does our esteemed color expert, Mr. Carl Izzo, have to say on the > subject? (Not to shun our "esteemed model color expert, Dr. Bruce Smith!) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 12:34:36 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] DGLE Paint Mix For Use On Wood? From: Jerry Britton On 12/26/02 12:35 PM, Jerry Breon (jbreon@email.msn.com) wrote: > Most full-service paint stores will color match your sample with a > computer color reader. I would suggest going a little "greener" than DGLE > (but not much) for the fascia and be sure to apply it over a good primer. I > use Zinzer 1-2-3. Thanks! > Don't forget the bronze gold pin striping :-). I am, in fact, pondering pin-striping! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] DGLE Paint Mix For Use On Wood? Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 12:36:15 -0500 Jerry, I took the color drift card to a Tru-Value hardware store. They put in in the paint mix computer and came up with a formulation. I believe it is Benjamin Moore. The guy who helped me wrote the mix on the tint base can it has about 5 things in it. He was amazed that the computer could tell it wasn't black paint. I also instead to paint the fascia DGLE. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 12:37:26 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PSA to N Scalers... From: Jerry Britton Public Service Announcement to N scalers... Last week Bowser shipped a third series of 12 road numbers of the N scale H21a hoppers in Circle Keystone livery. I figured I make mention, as I know a lot folks, myself included, want hundreds of these cars, so you have to buy 'em up as soon as they come out! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 13:40:30 -0500 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] CV station in Harrisburg Listers: Does anyone know when the Cumberland Valley station in Harrisburg was torn down? Was it still standing in 1953-54? TIA. Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 13:44:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] CV station in Harrisburg From: Jerry Britton On 12/26/02 1:40 PM, Dr. Edmond L. Freed (docfoot@bellsouth.net) wrote: > Does anyone know when the Cumberland Valley station in Harrisburg was > torn down? > Was it still standing in 1953-54? > Yes, it was still there in 1954. I needed to find this out for my own modeling. Not sure when it was actually removed. This photo (http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/images/gg1_4911.jpg), dated 1959, shows the CV station in the background. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: [PRR] Scalecoat Brusnwick Green Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 13:51:03 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00DC_01C2ACE5.D4FAF520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guys: I'm going to paint a Q2 in DGLE. In the past I've used Scalecoat = Brunswick Green, but Scalecoat has change to a much greener shade. (I = think they've been talking to the model loco manufactures!) I want to = mix the paint with black and I'm unsure of what mixture to use. My = instincts tell me to mix 1:1. Does anyone have experience here? Thanks, Larry ------=_NextPart_000_00DC_01C2ACE5.D4FAF520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Guys:
 
I'm going to paint a Q2 in DGLE.  = In the past=20 I've used Scalecoat Brunswick Green, but Scalecoat has change to a much = greener=20 shade.  (I think they've been talking to the model loco=20 manufactures!)  I want to mix the paint with black and I'm = unsure of=20 what mixture to use.  My instincts tell me to mix 1:1.  Does = anyone=20 have experience here?
 
Thanks,
 
Larry
------=_NextPart_000_00DC_01C2ACE5.D4FAF520-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 14:06:45 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Scalecoat Brusnwick Green This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_+LfuaF0H2Pb0AkyaQ0EKXQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Larry- Scalecoats shades are different because everytime the company contracts with a new paint manufacturer, the formula's are different. First, look at the bottom of the bottle for color. I had 2 bottles purchased at the same time with different shades. If you are going to mix engine black into it, mix the brunswick green into the black to lighten it up. If you try to darken the BG, you will put the entire bottle of black in. My experience, I tried to darken BG with loco black. I put the entire bottle of black and was left with 2-thirds bottle of BG. Needless to say, I did not go out to purchase more black. At my club, the engine has been named "The Green Hornet." You will get much better results starting with the black and lightening up the shade. Add the BG, mix and test. If not satisfied, keep adding the BG until you get the color you want. Dont be so picky about the shade, because once the engines were in use, in the elements, with the sun beating on them, they changed almost instantly. Plus, weathering the locomotive( Q2's took a beating) will cover anyone's gripes about the color. Futhermore, by the time the Q2's came along, locomotives were not being washed regularly as the PRR did in earlier days of steam. My experience with Scalecoat. Great engine to weather. Lots of dirt, sand, and grime. Weather it like they worked- No time for a oily steam clean. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Larry Reynolds Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 1:51 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Scalecoat Brusnwick Green Guys: I'm going to paint a Q2 in DGLE. In the past I've used Scalecoat Brunswick Green, but Scalecoat has change to a much greener shade. (I think they've been talking to the model loco manufactures!) I want to mix the paint with black and I'm unsure of what mixture to use. My instincts tell me to mix 1:1. Does anyone have experience here? Thanks, Larry --Boundary_(ID_+LfuaF0H2Pb0AkyaQ0EKXQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Larry-
 
Scalecoats shades are different because everytime the company contracts with a new paint manufacturer, the formula's are different.  First, look at the bottom of the bottle for color.  I had 2 bottles purchased at the same time with different shades.  If you are going to mix engine black into it, mix the brunswick green into the black to lighten it up.  If you try to darken the BG, you will put the entire bottle of black in.  My experience, I tried to darken BG with loco black.  I put the entire bottle of black and was left with 2-thirds bottle of BG.  Needless to say, I did not go out to purchase more black.  At my club, the engine has been named "The Green Hornet."  You will get much better results starting with the black and lightening up the shade.   Add the BG, mix and test.  If not satisfied, keep adding the BG until you get the color you want.
 
Dont be so picky about the shade, because once the engines were in use, in the elements, with the sun beating on them, they changed almost instantly.  Plus, weathering the locomotive( Q2's took a beating) will cover anyone's gripes about the color.  Futhermore, by the time the Q2's came along, locomotives were not being washed regularly as the PRR did in earlier days of steam.
 
My experience with Scalecoat.  Great engine to weather.  Lots of dirt, sand, and grime.  Weather it like they worked-  No time for a oily steam clean.
 
Greg V
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Larry Reynolds
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 1:51 PM
To: PRR-Talk
Subject: [PRR] Scalecoat Brusnwick Green

Guys:
 
I'm going to paint a Q2 in DGLE.  In the past I've used Scalecoat Brunswick Green, but Scalecoat has change to a much greener shade.  (I think they've been talking to the model loco manufactures!)  I want to mix the paint with black and I'm unsure of what mixture to use.  My instincts tell me to mix 1:1.  Does anyone have experience here?
 
Thanks,
 
Larry
--Boundary_(ID_+LfuaF0H2Pb0AkyaQ0EKXQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:28:13 -0500 From: "Michael A. Hmel" Subject: Fw: [PRR] DGLE Paint Mix For Use On Wood? Hello List , In an earlier message Mr Breon suggested the color be a little " greener " . This defeats using the computer match- ing process . If you chose this option I would suggest going to a " paint store " . Its not so easy to just " green " up a color . Several colors / tints may be needed to achieve this . You'll need a really experienced paint mixing employee to adjust down the color from the computer matched sample formula . I've been in the painting business for twenty years and have found only a handful of guys capable of doing this . Today , everyone is so dependant on the " computer formula " they have no idea on how to adjust it . Also , if the color is computer matched from a glossy sample there can be a difference in say a flat or low sheen color you want . These colors usually appear lighter , because they haven't any sheen to conduct light . Mike ( PRRT&HS ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Breon" To: "Jerry Britton" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 12:35 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] DGLE Paint Mix For Use On Wood? I would suggest going a little "greener" than DGLE > (but not much) for the fascia and be sure to apply it over a good primer > Jerry Breon > Reading, PA > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 15:46:27 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] E7's Norm Bell writes > My understanding on PRR E7's was that they couldn't get enough air into the carbody (for combustion I assume) and added the second grill at the rear of the cab at the top and the three little openings toward the front under the first window. BUt looking at SP&S units in Mainline Modeler some had the second rear grill added and some didn't and none had the three little openings in the front. Was the PRR the only one to have a particular problem or how did other RR's solve the problem?< Norm and All, The issues were airflow related, but it was related to cooling. I have stated before that my friends that model the CB&Q laugh and say that it isn't a cooling issue it was just that the PRR just never ran them fast enough. The airflow was increased (and mod's made starting in early 1951, by photo evidence)by adding air induction vents to the side of the carbody and also just below the roof line at the rear end of the unit. the other modifactions required were to remove the louvers above the radiators and replace them with internal shutters and "chicken wire". The roof wire grill work is now available from Detla Models (I bought mine some time back)and corrects this feature for the Cary, Model Power/Con Cor and Life Like E-7's (and from what appears to be the soon to be released BLI units). I have always wished that the feature would be offered on plastic locomotive offering as MOST Railroads made the modifactions. I also wish that someone would publish good roof top photos of the whole affair. If you look and I mean hard you can find them. All those great overhead publicity phots taken in Chicago are fine, but I wish they would have done it more often after 1953 so we could see the change more clearly. Greg Martin ˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙˙ŢśŹ˛+-jwÂ+aśŹ–+-ţ™^jÇŻŠČ­†Űi˙˙ĺŠËlýŰ(§÷( !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Rubber tired switchers (shifters?) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 15:56:09 -0500 Listers, Does anyone know where one can find plans (HO) for the rubber tired switchers used in Baltimore? Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 21:24:33 -0500 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: [PRR] Cedco PRR calendar game I like to try and figure out the captions. For the month of February 2003 it states about the GG1... ..."Inspired by artist Raymond Loewy's S-1 and T-1 duplexes, the actual design was done by Baldwin in Eddystone, Pennsylvania." Bill Lane wrote: > > Hi All, > > For the past 3 years, I have opened my new Cedco PRR calendar on Christmas > morning with the following game. I flip through and within 5 seconds, try to > guess the town where the photo was taken. I did pretty well this year. I had > only one completely wrong. (FEB. 3 GG1) I thought it was Frankford Junction. > My guess was written in the text of the caption for 3 more. (Close!) I had > the rest correct. Try it yourself with the new one, or an old one. You CAN"T > throw them out! > > Here is my on line holiday greeting. > > http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/Xmas2002.jpg > > http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/XmasTree2002.jpg > > Happy Holidays, > > Bill > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- Chris Brandt cobrandt@eclipse.net http://pennsylvaniarailroad.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 20:42:02 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Cedco PRR calendar game On Thu, 26 Dec 2002, Chris Brandt wrote: > I like to try and figure out the captions. > For the month of February 2003 it states about the GG1... > > ..."Inspired by artist Raymond Loewy's S-1 and T-1 duplexes, the actual > design was done by Baldwin in Eddystone, Pennsylvania." Yeah, that's the great thing about CEDCO...never let the facts get in the way of a caption ! Lets do the time warp again...!! Bruce !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 20:42:02 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Cedco PRR calendar game On Thu, 26 Dec 2002, Chris Brandt wrote: > I like to try and figure out the captions. > For the month of February 2003 it states about the GG1... > > ..."Inspired by artist Raymond Loewy's S-1 and T-1 duplexes, the actual > design was done by Baldwin in Eddystone, Pennsylvania." Yeah, that's the great thing about CEDCO...never let the facts get in the way of a caption ! Lets do the time warp again...!! Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 00:22:47 EST Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] DGLE Paint Mix For Use On Wood? --part1_31.31e5edaa.2b3d3da7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I guess I just don't understand wanting one thing and creating another and trying to convince oneself that it is all the same thing. DGLE can likely be had from your local Glidden Dealer under the name of Brunswick Green. Tell them the color is an archive color of pre 1968 and they might come up with a mix that matches DGLE as they did produce this color to match DGLE for Pullman... Now ask me why for Pullman. That's an interesting story. But please don't put five stripes on a greenish black color. YUCK! Greg Martin > >I would suggest going a little "greener" than DGLE (but not much) for the > fascia and be sure to apply it over a good primer... > > Jerry Breon > > Reading, PA > --part1_31.31e5edaa.2b3d3da7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I guess I just don't understand wanting one thing and creating another and trying to convince oneself that it is all the same thing.  DGLE can likely be had from your local Glidden Dealer under the name of Brunswick Green. Tell them the color is an archive color of pre 1968 and they might come up with a mix that matches DGLE as they did produce this color to match DGLE for Pullman... Now ask me why for Pullman.  That's an interesting story.  But please don't put five stripes on a greenish black color. YUCK!

Greg Martin

>I would suggest going a little "greener" than DGLE (but not much) for the fascia and be sure to apply it over a good primer...
> Jerry Breon
> Reading, PA


 --part1_31.31e5edaa.2b3d3da7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 06:21:48 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] FW: [PRR-FAX] Bill Edson FYI: A memorial service for W. D. Edson will be held at 11:00 AM on Monday, December 30 at the Bradley Hills Presbyterian Church on Bradley Blvd. in Bethesda, Md. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] Early 20th century railroading Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 08:54:54 -0500 Friends: Here is an article from the National Geographic magazine from the middle of the 20th century. Interesting general information with some specific PRR. Lew http://www.railroadextra.com/ngstory.Html Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic and Energy Systems. Advocating sustainable composting toilets and gray water systems. Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 09:23:07 -0500 From: davep Subject: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 > I like to try and figure out the captions. THAT caption ia unfigureoutable. > For the month of February 2003 it states about the GG1... >> ..."Inspired by artist Raymond Loewy's S-1 and T-1 >>duplexes..." ??? Very Difficult for GG1 to have been inspired by loks which did not exist yet. There is much mythology, including some in print, about Raymond Loewy and the PRR. (I'll post more, with references, in 'a little while'.) In short: Loewy did not design the GG1 (he modified it.) Loewy's Autobiography is quite clear on this, and is available, either in original, or reprint. Also, the PRRT&HS (or is it H&T?) has an extended article, with references, on this. (I'm not 'attacking Loewy', simply dealing in facts.) best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 10:26:54 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 Furthermore, the often stated claim to give Raymond Lowey full credit for the "design" of the GG-1 treats the locomotive as if it were only a work of art. It was a great machine, and a such its design was by George Gibbs and the engineering departments at the PRR, GE, and Westinghouse. Raymond Lowey just diddled with the cosmetics of the shell! Raymond Lowey painted five stripes on the GG-1 and everyone else's inspired work was forgotten. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== davep wrote: > > I like to try and figure out the captions. > > THAT caption ia unfigureoutable. > > > For the month of February 2003 it states about the GG1... > >> ..."Inspired by artist Raymond Loewy's S-1 and T-1 > > >>duplexes..." > > ??? > Very Difficult for GG1 to have been inspired > by loks which did not exist yet. > > There is much mythology, including some in print, > about Raymond Loewy and the PRR. (I'll post more, > with references, in 'a little while'.) > > In short: > Loewy did not design the GG1 (he modified it.) > Loewy's Autobiography is quite clear on this, and > is available, either in original, or reprint. > > Also, the PRRT&HS (or is it H&T?) has an extended > article, with references, on this. > > (I'm not 'attacking Loewy', simply dealing in facts.) > > best > dwp > > ...the net of a million lies... > Vernor Vinge > There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. > -me > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:20:51 +0000 Well he did a little more than that on the G but I basicaly agree he was ahead of his time with his self promotion and arrogance about his importance. The other side of the coin is that his designs are very very good. The GG1 and the Studebaker Avanti are still contemporary after all these years. > Furthermore, the often stated claim to give Raymond Lowey full credit for > the "design" of the GG-1 treats the locomotive as if it were only a work of > art. It was a great machine, and a such its design was by George Gibbs and > the engineering departments at the PRR, GE, and Westinghouse. Raymond > Lowey just diddled with the cosmetics of the shell! Raymond Lowey painted > five stripes on the GG-1 and everyone else's inspired work was forgotten. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > davep wrote: > > > > I like to try and figure out the captions. > > > > THAT caption ia unfigureoutable. > > > > > For the month of February 2003 it states about the GG1... > > >> ..."Inspired by artist Raymond Loewy's S-1 and T-1 > > > > >>duplexes..." > > > > ??? > > Very Difficult for GG1 to have been inspired > > by loks which did not exist yet. > > > > There is much mythology, including some in print, > > about Raymond Loewy and the PRR. (I'll post more, > > with references, in 'a little while'.) > > > > In short: > > Loewy did not design the GG1 (he modified it.) > > Loewy's Autobiography is quite clear on this, and > > is available, either in original, or reprint. > > > > Also, the PRRT&HS (or is it H&T?) has an extended > > article, with references, on this. > > > > (I'm not 'attacking Loewy', simply dealing in facts.) > > > > best > > dwp > > > > ...the net of a million lies... > > Vernor Vinge > > There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. > > -me > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > -- > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:27:34 -0500 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 davep wrote: >>SNIPPED<< > > Also, the PRRT&HS (or is it H&T?) has an extended > article, with references, on this. >Dave, It's the PRRT&HS - Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society. By the way, on another forum (O Gauge Railroad magazine), we had a thread about the GG1. Besides the fact that the PRR is probably the most popular RR to model, what other railroad has over 10% of any class locomotive preserved (excluding one off's) such as the remaining 16 of 139 GG1's? Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:31:24 -0500 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > > Furthermore, the often stated claim to give Raymond Lowey full credit for > the "design" of the GG-1 treats the locomotive as if it were only a work of > art. It was a great machine, and a such its design was by George Gibbs and > the engineering departments at the PRR, GE, and Westinghouse. Raymond > Lowey just diddled with the cosmetics of the shell! Raymond Lowey painted > five stripes on the GG-1 and everyone else's inspired work was forgotten. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org Andy, Not lessening the engineering department's efforts in any way but let's not leave out Lowey's idea of the welding of the body. At the very least, that's made "Old Rivets" unique. Lowey was hired as a graphic designer and he did his job superbly. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 12:19:05 -0500 Gentlemen: I would like to shed some light on Raymond Lowey and his projects including his work with the Pennsylvania Railroad. You see, my father worked for Lowey as a automobile designer in the 1950's and 1960's. Even in automobile styling projects, there was a common misconception of who really designed these cars. For example, my father's crowning achievement was the Studebaker Avanti project; my father and Tom Kellogg were the co-designers of the Avanti. Raymond Lowey did not design the Avanti but merely oversaw the project. As my father explained to me, Lowey had an eye for industrial styling and what client was looking for. He also had a great ability to gather a team of designers together and motivate them for a project. But as for artistic abilities, my father related that Lowey could do basic sketching but that was about it. I think that it is a truthful statement to say that the T-1 Duplex was styled by Raymond Lowey Associates. It would be inaccurate, however, to say that the T-1 was designed by Lowey himself. Likewise, it is accurate to say that the Studebaker Avanti was designed by Raymond Lowey Associates. But it was not designed by Raymond Lowey. My father related to me that there was a designer that worked for Lowey in the 1940's and early 1950's who really influenced the Lowey railroad projects including the PRR, Baldwin (Sharks), and Fairbanks Morse. His name was Carl Otto. According to my father as well as other Lowey designers, Otto was the one would really designed many of the locomotive stylings that we know and admire. In summary, I would would say that Lowey had a great eye for styling and how to meet the needs of his clients. He also put together great but small teams of designers and motive them to work on given project. But to get him full 100 percent credit for various projects is very misleading. I would liken it to something like a major newspaper like the Chicago Tribune. It has an Editor in Chief, Associate Editors, Assistant Editors, and dozens if not hundreds of reporters. The would be erroneous to say that every story in every section of the newspaper was written by the Editor in Chief. I believe that that is what has happened with Raymond Lowey and his various projects including the GG-1. Ted M. Andrews son of Robert F. Andrews (Co-designer of the Studebaker Avanti) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" To: "davep" Cc: Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 10:26 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 > Furthermore, the often stated claim to give Raymond Lowey full credit for > the "design" of the GG-1 treats the locomotive as if it were only a work of > art. It was a great machine, and a such its design was by George Gibbs and > the engineering departments at the PRR, GE, and Westinghouse. Raymond > Lowey just diddled with the cosmetics of the shell! Raymond Lowey painted > five stripes on the GG-1 and everyone else's inspired work was forgotten. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > davep wrote: > > > > I like to try and figure out the captions. > > > > THAT caption ia unfigureoutable. > > > > > For the month of February 2003 it states about the GG1... > > >> ..."Inspired by artist Raymond Loewy's S-1 and T-1 > > > > >>duplexes..." > > > > ??? > > Very Difficult for GG1 to have been inspired > > by loks which did not exist yet. > > > > There is much mythology, including some in print, > > about Raymond Loewy and the PRR. (I'll post more, > > with references, in 'a little while'.) > > > > In short: > > Loewy did not design the GG1 (he modified it.) > > Loewy's Autobiography is quite clear on this, and > > is available, either in original, or reprint. > > > > Also, the PRRT&HS (or is it H&T?) has an extended > > article, with references, on this. > > > > (I'm not 'attacking Loewy', simply dealing in facts.) > > > > best > > dwp > > > > ...the net of a million lies... > > Vernor Vinge > > There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. > > -me > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > -- > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 12:31:10 -0500 Friends: (I have to add my 2 cents here since the G motor is one of my favorite locos.) The GG1 is representative of the best of early 20th century synergistic engineering and design. There was/is little that could be improved, even 50 years later. The welded into one-piece body; the cast steel frame; the AC motors and quill drive, and the sleek, smooth surface design and paint scheme were all state of the art in the 1930's and remained "modern" up to the last runs of the G's in the 60's and 70's. Even today, when people see the G motors in museums, they don't think of them as pre WW II because they STILL look contemporary. If Brunnel's "Great Eastern" marks the beginning of the steel age, then the GG1 marks the apex of its perfection, preserving the flavor of that era in a timeless design. BTW, another of my favorite "timeless" Lowey designs is the bullet shaped trash can with the spring loaded lid. Looks as good today as it did when he designed them for PRR in the 1930's. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill" To: "Andrew S. Miller" Cc: "davep" ; Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 11:31 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 > "Andrew S. Miller" wrote > > > > Furthermore, the often stated claim to give Raymond Lowey full credit for > > the "design" of the GG-1 treats the locomotive as if it were only a work of > > art. It was a great machine, and a such its design was by George Gibbs and > > the engineering departments at the PRR, GE, and Westinghouse. Raymond > > Lowey just diddled with the cosmetics of the shell! Raymond Lowey painted > > five stripes on the GG-1 and everyone else's inspired work was forgotten. > > > > Regards, > > > > Andy Miller > > asmiller@mitre.org > > Andy, > > Not lessening the engineering department's efforts in any way but let's > not leave out Lowey's idea of the welding of the body. At the very > least, that's made "Old Rivets" unique. Lowey was hired as a graphic > designer and he did his job superbly. > > Bill Morlitz > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 13:27:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 In a message dated 12/27/02 9:33:44 AM Central Standard Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << Raymond Lowey just diddled with the cosmetics of the shell! >> Yeah, and Shakespeare just happened to get the words in the dictionary in the right order. Seriously, Raymond Loewy, the father of Industrial Design, never claimed to design the Locomotive. Specifically, he "acted as consulting designer in the styling of these engines." (his words). If the public gives him more credit than some may feel he deserves or the public short changes the actual locomotive mechanical and electrical design engineers, well that is the public---the same public that pays people millions of dollars to put balls in holes or lip-synch to amplified music. I think most SPFs can put his contribution to aesthetics in perspective compared to the technical merits of the loco and its performance longevity which are products of others. Bob (self-confessed Loewyphile) Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:24:10 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 > << Raymond Loewy just diddled with the cosmetics of the shell! >> > Yeah, Indeed. > and Shakespeare just happened to get the words in the > dictionary in the right order. To extend the metaphor: SOMEone (unknown) wrote a book. Loewy Edited it. Again: Compare 'the shape' or R1, of 4899 GG1 (pre Loewy) and any welded GG1 (post Loewy editing.) > Seriously, Raymond Loewy, the father of Industrial Design, Along with a good many other people. cf Loewy's autobiography. > never claimed to design the Locomotive. Specifically, he > "acted as consulting designer in the styling of these > engines." (his words). These do not appear in his autobiography. (tho they may elsewhere). I would fiends them apt IF the history: GG1 4899 ('Rivets') was done, running, tested before Loewy got involved. > If the public gives him more credit than some may feel he > deserves Or than he himself spoke for in his autobiography. > or the public short changes the actual locomotive > mechanical and electrical design engineers, well that is > the public Who know what they are told. Seems reasonable to revisit the facts, as they become known. And for relatively authoritative sources to take some care. > I think most SPFs can put his contribution to aesthetics > in perspective Compare the shapes as above. 4899/Rivets was done before Loewy's involvement, according to Loewy. > compared to the technical merits of the loco and its > performance longevity which are products of others. ...as was the shape. According to Loewy. -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:28:35 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 > BTW, another of my favorite "timeless" Lowey Loewy. 8)>> > designs is the bullet shaped trash can with the spring > loaded lid. The common modern one is nought to do with PRR. Dunno if to do with Loewy, or what. The exhibit at the Hagley includes a pic of the PRR/Penn Station can: Squareish 'greek ornament' around the base. > Looks as good today Where is it illustrated? -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 21:34:29 +0000 Since Loewey had absolutely no involvement with the R1 it is not a valid comparison to compare it to the GG1 anymore than it is to comapre a P5a or a B1 to a G. Different animals and different shapes completely. If you want to compare 4800 to the production models your comments could be a viable arguement. Yes the changes were what made the G the beloved engine it became. Yes there is a vast esthetic difference in the two. I believe most of us will be very opinionated as to the Loewey involvement however. Some of do not care for him due to his vast attitude of superiority and arrogance. Others see him as a genius. there will never be definitive concensus (at least in my lifetime). > > << Raymond Loewy just diddled with the cosmetics of the shell! >> > > > Yeah, > > Indeed. > > > and Shakespeare just happened to get the words in the > > > dictionary in the right order. > > To extend the metaphor: > SOMEone (unknown) wrote a book. Loewy Edited it. > Again: > Compare 'the shape' or R1, of 4899 GG1 (pre Loewy) > and any welded GG1 (post Loewy editing.) > > > Seriously, Raymond Loewy, the father of Industrial Design, > > Along with a good many other people. > cf Loewy's autobiography. > > > never claimed to design the Locomotive. Specifically, he > > > "acted as consulting designer in the styling of these > > > engines." (his words). > These do not appear in his autobiography. > > (tho they may elsewhere). I would fiends them apt > IF the history: > GG1 4899 ('Rivets') was done, running, > tested before Loewy got involved. > > > > If the public gives him more credit than some may feel he > > > deserves > > Or than he himself spoke for in his autobiography. > > > or the public short changes the actual locomotive > > > mechanical and electrical design engineers, well that is > > > the public > > Who know what they are told. Seems reasonable to > revisit the facts, as they become known. And for > relatively authoritative sources to take some care. > > > > I think most SPFs can put his contribution to aesthetics > > > in perspective > > Compare the shapes as above. 4899/Rivets was done > before Loewy's involvement, according to Loewy. > > > > compared to the technical merits of the loco and its > > > performance longevity which are products of others. > ...as was the shape. According to Loewy. > > > -- > best > dwp > > ...the net of a million lies... > Vernor Vinge > There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. > -me > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:41:56 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 >>Furthermore, the often stated claim to give Raymond Lowey (Loewy) >> full credit for the "design" of the GG-1 Which apparently originates in the fan community, including authors, or, at least, not with Loewy. >> treats the locomotive as if it were only a work of art. It >> was a great machine, and a such its design was by George >> Gibbs and the engineering departments at the PRR, GE, and >> Westinghouse. Raymond Loewy just diddled with the cosmetics >> of the shell! Raymond Loewy painted five stripes on the >> GG-1 and everyone else's inspired work was forgotten. > Not lessening the engineering department's efforts in any > way but let's not leave out Lowey's Loewy's 8)>> > idea of the welding of the body. ...and rearranging the cooling.... > At the very least, that's made "Old Rivets" unique. Loewy was > hired as a graphic designer An _Industrial Designer_. Includes engineering concerns. I don't think 'Graphic Designer' existed yet... ===================and to save another post===================== Raymond Loewy Associates did not exist until well after GG1 timeframe. ca 1944. Dunno how this matches to S1, etc, certainly postdates GG1 and K4 jobs. However (and his autobiography makes this clear) there were employees from early on. How accurately the credits get sliced and diced, i dunno. -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:52:10 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 > Since Loewey Loewy 8)>> > had absolutely no involvement with the R1 it is not a valid > comparison to compare it to the GG1 They came out at the same time, and to the same goal. GG1 and R1 look alike. cf any reference, the P5 book has all illustrated. p 100 and 106... > anymore than it is to comapre a P5a or a B1 to a G. Indeed. aa 'G' is a 4-6-0 steamer, if i recall. 8)>> Came in several classes. > Different animals and different shapes completely. I guess i have a different definition of different. R1 looks a lot like a GG1 or a P5 Modified. > If you want to compare 4800 to the production models I did. > your comments could be a viable arguement. I believe they are. In fact, the similarity of R1 and GG1/Rivets (both pre Loewy) is the point. > Yes the changes were what made the G the beloved engine > it became. Perhaps. We shall never know. > Yes there is a vast esthetic difference in the two. Which two? > I believe most of us will be very opinionated as to the > Loewey involvement however. Some of [us] do not care > for him due to his vast attitude of superiority and > arrogance. Others see him as a genius. There will never > be definitive consensus (at least in my lifetime). As to the fact that the shape existed pre Loewy, consensus is sort of irrelevant. It Existed. It existed, in two forms, pre-Loewy: GG1/Rivets and R1 -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 17:00:55 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 On Fri, 27 Dec 2002 ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Yes there is a vast esthetic difference in the two. I believe most of us will > be very opinionated as to the Loewey involvement however. Some of do not care > for him due to his vast attitude of superiority and arrogance. Others see him > as a genius. there will never be definitive concensus (at least in my > lifetime). Can we at least agree that his name was spelled "Loewy" and not Lowey, Leowey, Leowy or any of the other variants? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 17:39:00 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 --part1_199.12f8d6bc.2b3e3084_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/27/2002 11:29:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, prrbill@op.net writes: >Besides the fact that the PRR is probably >the most popular RR to model, what other railroad has over 10% of any >class locomotive preserved (excluding one off's) such as the remaining >16 of 139 GG1's? The eight preserved (out of twenty-five) UP Big Boys? Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_199.12f8d6bc.2b3e3084_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/27/2002 11:29:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, prrbill@op.net writes:

>Besides the fact that the PRR is probably
>the most popular RR to model, what other railroad has over 10% of any
>class locomotive preserved (excluding one off's) such as the remaining
>16 of 139 GG1's?

The eight preserved (out of twenty-five) UP Big Boys?

 Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_199.12f8d6bc.2b3e3084_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 18:46:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] GG1 # 4866 "Silver GG1" Hello List, For about a month now, I've been sorting through a PRR and early Penn Central slide collection. Today I came across an "odd-ball" or maybe a "rare bird" I found some slides of GG-1 # 4866 (Silver paint) on a fan trip(?) on the Port Road near COLA Tower. Maybe a fan trip. The first four cars are P70 coaches then some long distance coaches, P85 type. I don't think it's a detour train from Harrisburg. Lots of people standing around train. The train is headed east but I don't know if she's headed for Lancaster (Columbia Branch) or Perryville. The slides are not marked so I can't give a date. Anyone know of a fan trip with a Silver G on the Port Road? Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 00:05:09 +0000 PRR paid MR. Leowy a lot of money for his consultantship. They did not quibble about who in his shop did what or got what share of the credit.The PRR basked in the limelight afforded to those modern enough to employ professional designers; much as did NYC with Otto Kuhler. To snipe at Leowy for what he did is revisionism run to it's lowest form: nitpicking. You may as well do the same to Thomas Alva Edison and Walter Elias Disney. Happy New Year, HANK. > > << Raymond Loewy just diddled with the cosmetics of the shell! >> > > > Yeah, > > Indeed. > > > and Shakespeare just happened to get the words in the > > > dictionary in the right order. > > To extend the metaphor: > SOMEone (unknown) wrote a book. Loewy Edited it. > Again: > Compare 'the shape' or R1, of 4899 GG1 (pre Loewy) > and any welded GG1 (post Loewy editing.) > > > Seriously, Raymond Loewy, the father of Industrial Design, > > Along with a good many other people. > cf Loewy's autobiography. > > > never claimed to design the Locomotive. Specifically, he > > > "acted as consulting designer in the styling of these > > > engines." (his words). > These do not appear in his autobiography. > > (tho they may elsewhere). I would fiends them apt > IF the history: > GG1 4899 ('Rivets') was done, running, > tested before Loewy got involved. > > > > If the public gives him more credit than some may feel he > > > deserves > > Or than he himself spoke for in his autobiography. > > > or the public short changes the actual locomotive > > > mechanical and electrical design engineers, well that is > > > the public > > Who know what they are told. Seems reasonable to > revisit the facts, as they become known. And for > relatively authoritative sources to take some care. > > > > I think most SPFs can put his contribution to aesthetics > > > in perspective > > Compare the shapes as above. 4899/Rivets was done > before Loewy's involvement, according to Loewy. > > > > compared to the technical merits of the loco and its > > > performance longevity which are products of others. > ...as was the shape. According to Loewy. > > > -- > best > dwp > > ...the net of a million lies... > Vernor Vinge > There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. > -me > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:59:31 -0800 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] Loewy and Sharks The design firm of Hadley, Ryder and Peterson designed the "sharknose" diesel carbody for Baldwin. Not Raymond Loewy. First use was on the BP-20 "passenger sharks." Peter Weiglin San Mateo, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 20:59:28 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 --part1_131.1887ae33.2b3e5f80_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List. The GG1 was more of a redesign of the Baldwin Westinghouse New Haven EP3 concept with its 2-C+C-2 arrangement. The Electrical Engineer Duer of the PRR along with Baldwin,Westinghouse,GE & Gibb & Hill Consulting Engineers worked on the project to design the GG1.They built the body to work on that wheel arrangement because the EP3 proved reductions in lateral forces,had good tracking characteristics,quality riding and lower axle weights(although the GG1 did have higher loadings than the EP3). Since Baldwin-Westinghouse built the R1 and GE built the GG1 at the same time for testing and they have the same body style(as per PRR management request to remove the operating cabs from the front) who exactly came up with the body style they used if they are pre-Loewy? Did Loewy just change the way the outer body shell was constructed by going welded instead of rivets and changed the stripping? Or was he involved in both? Pat McKinney --part1_131.1887ae33.2b3e5f80_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List.
        The GG1 was more of a redesign of the Baldwin Westinghouse New Haven EP3 concept with its 2-C+C-2 arrangement. The Electrical Engineer Duer of the PRR along with Baldwin,Westinghouse,GE & Gibb & Hill Consulting Engineers worked on the project to design the GG1.They built the body to work on that wheel arrangement because the EP3 proved reductions in lateral forces,had good tracking characteristics,quality riding and lower axle weights(although the GG1 did have higher loadings than the EP3).
    Since Baldwin-Westinghouse built the R1 and GE built the GG1 at the same time for testing and they have the same body style(as per PRR management request to remove the operating cabs from the front) who exactly came up with the body style they used if they are pre-Loewy? Did Loewy just change the way the outer body shell was constructed by going welded instead of rivets and changed the stripping? Or was he involved in both?

Pat McKinney --part1_131.1887ae33.2b3e5f80_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 21:58:38 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 > PRR paid MR. Leowy To mispell his name might indicate a certain lack of regard for Mr Loewy. > a lot of money for his consultantship. They did not quibble > about who in his shop did what or got what share of the credit.The PRR basked > in the limelight afforded to those modern enough to employ professional > designers; much as did NYC with Otto Kuhler. To snipe at Leowy for what he did > is revisionism run to it's lowest form: nitpicking. ...and to credit him for what he did not do is to discredit those who did. I suggest that quoting Loewy's autobiography hardly qualifies as 'revisionism. Simple History. -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/27/02 Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 22:06:17 -0500 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Jerry, Jerry & Chris: I have only three things to say on the subject: 1. "Ah, the wonders of science!" 2. " Don't make it as green as my 1957 model Athern rubber band drive F- units." 3. "Nuff said" Happy New Year to you and yours! Carl P. Izzo Industrial Paint consultant Esteemed Color Expert PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] DGLE Paint Mix For Use On Wood? From: "Jerry Breon" Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 12:35:07 -0500 Jerry, Most full-service paint stores will color match your sample with a computer color reader. I would suggest going a little "greener" than DGLE (but not much) for the fascia and be sure to apply it over a good primer. I use Zinzer 1-2-3. Don't forget the bronze gold pin striping :-). Jerry Breon Reading, PA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 12:14 PM Subject: [PRR] DGLE Paint Mix For Use On Wood? > Has anyone experimented with paint mixes at national home centers (Lowe's, > Home Depot, etc.) to try to make a DGLE (Dark Green Locomotive Enamel) mix > for use on wood? > > I'm leaning towards using it on the fascia and exposed benchwork of my > layout. I do have a PRRT&HS color drift card, but I figure most stores would > look at it and say "That's black!" > > What does our esteemed color expert, Mr. Carl Izzo, have to say on the > subject? (Not to shun our "esteemed model color expert, Dr. Bruce Smith!) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] DGLE Paint Mix For Use On Wood? From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 12:34:36 -0500 On 12/26/02 12:35 PM, Jerry Breon (jbreon@email.msn.com) wrote: > Most full-service paint stores will color match your sample with a > computer color reader. I would suggest going a little "greener" than DGLE > (but not much) for the fascia and be sure to apply it over a good primer. I > use Zinzer 1-2-3. Thanks! > Don't forget the bronze gold pin striping :-). I am, in fact, pondering pin-striping! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: [PRR] DGLE Paint Mix For Use On Wood? From: "Chany, Christopher" Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 12:36:15 -0500 Jerry, I took the color drift card to a Tru-Value hardware store. They put in in the paint mix computer and came up with a formulation. I believe it is Benjamin Moore. The guy who helped me wrote the mix on the tint base can it has about 5 things in it. He was amazed that the computer could tell it wasn't black paint. I also instead to paint the fascia DGLE. Chris Chany ---------------------------------------------------------------------- with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 22:12:21 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 > The GG1 was more of a redesign of the Baldwin Westinghouse New > Haven EP3 concept with its 2-C+C-2 arrangement. Or the Less well known 2-C+C-2 at C U T. The link to the NH loks is more direct, including PRR Borrowing one for testing. > The Electrical Engineer Duer of the PRR along with Baldwin, > Westinghouse, GE & Gibbs & Hill Consulting Engineers worked > on the project to design the GG1. They built the body to work > on that wheel arrangement Within limits, the shape of the 'tin' is independent of the wheel arrangement. > because the EP3 proved reductions in lateral forces, had good > tracking characteristics, quality riding and lower axle weights > (although the GG1 did have higher loadings than the EP3). > Since Baldwin-Westinghouse built the R1 and GE built the GG1 > at the same time for testing and they have the same body style > (as per PRR management request to remove the operating cabs > from the front) who exactly came up with the body style THAT is the question I have been chasing for some years. > they used if they are pre-Loewy? They are pre-Loewy. So says Loewy. > Did Loewy just change the way the outer body shell was > constructed by going welded instead of rivets and changed > the striping? Add a few odds and ends (changing the air inlets) and that is what LOEWY (and his contracts) said he did. > Or was he involved in both? LOEWY says his first involvement was after GG1/Rivets and R1 existed In Metal, after 'the shape' was set. (I crafted a text file with all this in it. 8)>> Including page numbers....) =============================================================== Raymond Loewy and the GG1 There seems to be ongoing confusion on the involvement of Raymond Loewy with the GG1. Loewy's autobiography, Never Leave Well Enough Alone, is quite clear. Picking up about page 136, he describes being shown a photograph of 'a locomotive' (unidentified, but 4899/Rivets). He is told, roughly: We have built one as an experiment, and will build more. What do you suggest? Loewy was given a shape, that existed in steel. After study, Loewy suggested, in part: change to welding change in painting relocation of ventilation louvers. and a few other odds and ends (not described, in detail, by him.). The origin of the shape is totally unclear. GG1 4899/R1 4800 had the shape before Loewy was associated with the PRR. One possibility is the PRR L5 motors, of the late 1920s. While rectangular, the 'massing' was the same, with 'noses'. The R1/GG1 version 'smoothed' this, 'sandblasted' it. Loewy substituted welding, and modified the painting. Other predecessors, perhaps, were the NY Central 'S motors', and the Milwaukee Road BiPolars. Its not clear if 'the shape' came from Westinghouse, GE or PRR, or ?? For references: Never Leave Well Enough Alone Raymond Loewy Available used, or as reprint: ISBN 0-8018-7211-1 The Pennsy's P5 Electrics F Westing, M Bezilla, R L Keyser ISBN 0-9663191-3-3 The Keystone, Volume 24, No 1, Spring 1991 A Special Issue dedicated to Raymond Loewy and the PRR. Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society Magazine. The first, from P 135 (of the reprint edition) tells the story, in narrative form. Its a tad confusing, as the first part of the chapter is in 1947ish, with the PRR Related portion in 1934. Later pictures include a 'P5 Modified' identified as a GG1. The second includes coverage of 'all' the PRR Electrics, with dates, which is handy. The Keystone issue covers the history of the relationship between Raymond Loewy and the PRR, in several articles. The largest is the Masters Thesis in Historic Preservation, prepared by Anita Pins in 1978. which paraphrases Loewy's account of the GG1. Also included are summary descriptions of 'each' contract between PRR and Loewy. Additionally, The Hagley Museum, in Wilmington, DE, www.hagley.org holds many of the Loewy Organization papers, including the contracts (?) AND is hosting a Loewy Exhibition. (and: the museum gift shop sells the Loewy Autobiography.) ============================================================ -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Phil Paskos" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 # 4866 "Silver GG1" Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 00:42:42 -0500 We are all guilty of taking photographs that we don't date or identify the place . When are we going to learn. All of us. I'm also a member of CTHS.( Reading Company and Technical Historical Society). Every month one of the members brings photographs trying to find out where and when they were taken. And yes I'm guilty as well. Phil > Hello List, > > For about a month now, I've been sorting through a PRR and early > Penn Central slide collection. Today I came across an "odd-ball" or > maybe a "rare bird" > I found some slides of GG-1 # 4866 (Silver paint) on a fan trip(?) > on the Port Road near COLA Tower. Maybe a fan trip. The first four cars > are P70 coaches then some long distance coaches, P85 type. I don't think > it's a detour train from Harrisburg. Lots of people standing around > train. The train is headed east but I don't know if she's headed for > Lancaster (Columbia Branch) or Perryville. The slides are not marked so > I can't give a date. > Anyone know of a fan trip with a Silver G on the Port Road? Any > help is appreciated. Thanks in advance. > > Dave Hopson > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 01:32:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 In a message dated 12/27/02 3:28:50 PM Central Standard Time, davep@quik.com writes: << Specifically, he > "acted as consulting designer in the styling of these > engines." (his words). These do not appear in his autobiography. >> In his book, Locomotive, he makes that statement in the legend under one of the GG1 photos. And you are correct, he didn't call himself the father of industrial design. That is a quote from a Time magazine article on industrial design in general about three years ago. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 # 4866 "Silver GG1" Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 13:54:57 +0000 Bill Volkmer has a picture of one at Columbia on a fan trip that say's ,"belived to be the fall of 1955" since they weren't around long that is about the best refernece I can find. > We are all guilty of taking photographs that we don't date or identify the > place . When are we going to learn. All of us. I'm also a member of > CTHS.( Reading Company and Technical Historical Society). Every month one of > the members brings photographs trying to find out where and when they were > taken. > > And yes I'm guilty as well. > Phil > > > Hello List, > > > > For about a month now, I've been sorting through a PRR and early > > Penn Central slide collection. Today I came across an "odd-ball" or > > maybe a "rare bird" > > I found some slides of GG-1 # 4866 (Silver paint) on a fan trip(?) > > on the Port Road near COLA Tower. Maybe a fan trip. The first four cars > > are P70 coaches then some long distance coaches, P85 type. I don't think > > it's a detour train from Harrisburg. Lots of people standing around > > train. The train is headed east but I don't know if she's headed for > > Lancaster (Columbia Branch) or Perryville. The slides are not marked so > > I can't give a date. > > Anyone know of a fan trip with a Silver G on the Port Road? Any > > help is appreciated. Thanks in advance. > > > > Dave Hopson > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 00:31:14 -0500 From: "Michael A. Hmel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 List , Does anyone know the exact compensation he received for his work and the time that was spent on this project ? Mike Hmel ( PRRT&HS ) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 12:14:57 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Scalecoat Brusnwick Green This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Yv6s6yYNmj/N0yxvf+gV4w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I dont know about the elements being more harsh on paint years ago as opposed to today. Keep in mind, their was no EPA back in the day. A main ingredient in paint at one time was Lead. Lead, being a metal, expands and contracts with the object it is on. Much like bridges now. Bridge painters need to paint with Lead Free products. If a bridge has an existing Lead based paint on it, the removal of the paint is very labor intesive because drop clothes need to surround the entire structure. INot to mention the cost of the project. If any Lead chips fall into a water supply system, the paint removal contractor will receive a very heavy fine. This is why our larger, older bridge structures need to be painted more frequently than in previous years. Lead free paint does not expand and contract with the structure as cooperatively as Lead based paints. The paint flakes, and the steel is exposes. I would think locomotives are the same. In earlier days, paint jobs would last much longer. But I am sure technology in the enamel industry has also changed. -----Original Message----- From: Cadwell, Marvin L [mailto:cadwelml@bp.com] Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 1:19 PM To: 'Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr'; Larry Reynolds; PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] Scalecoat Brusnwick Green I've had the same problem described below with Floquil. And I suspect the railroad also had the same problem, especially between shops at different locations. And the elements were probably much more severe on paint 50-60 years ago than they are today. -----Original Message----- From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr [mailto:gregvl@comcast.net] Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 1:07 PM To: Larry Reynolds; PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] Scalecoat Brusnwick Green Larry- Scalecoats shades are different because everytime the company contracts with a new paint manufacturer, the formula's are different. First, look at the bottom of the bottle for color. I had 2 bottles purchased at the same time with different shades. If you are going to mix engine black into it, mix the brunswick green into the black to lighten it up. If you try to darken the BG, you will put the entire bottle of black in. My experience, I tried to darken BG with loco black. I put the entire bottle of black and was left with 2-thirds bottle of BG. Needless to say, I did not go out to purchase more black. At my club, the engine has been named "The Green Hornet." You will get much better results starting with the black and lightening up the shade. Add the BG, mix and test. If not satisfied, keep adding the BG until you get the color you want. Dont be so picky about the shade, because once the engines were in use, in the elements, with the sun beating on them, they changed almost instantly. Plus, weathering the locomotive( Q2's took a beating) will cover anyone's gripes about the color. Futhermore, by the time the Q2's came along, locomotives were not being washed regularly as the PRR did in earlier days of steam. My experience with Scalecoat. Great engine to weather. Lots of dirt, sand, and grime. Weather it like they worked- No time for a oily steam clean. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Larry Reynolds Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 1:51 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Scalecoat Brusnwick Green Guys: I'm going to paint a Q2 in DGLE. In the past I've used Scalecoat Brunswick Green, but Scalecoat has change to a much greener shade. (I think they've been talking to the model loco manufactures!) I want to mix the paint with black and I'm unsure of what mixture to use. My instincts tell me to mix 1:1. Does anyone have experience here? Thanks, Larry --Boundary_(ID_Yv6s6yYNmj/N0yxvf+gV4w) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
I dont know about the elements being more harsh on paint years ago as opposed to today.   Keep in mind, their was no EPA back in the day.  A main ingredient in paint at one time was Lead.  Lead, being a metal, expands and contracts with the object it is on.   Much like bridges now.  Bridge painters need to paint with Lead Free products.  If a bridge has an existing Lead based paint on it, the removal of the paint is very labor intesive  because drop clothes need to surround the entire structure.  INot to mention the cost of the project.  If any Lead chips fall into a water supply system, the paint removal contractor will receive a very heavy fine.  This is why our larger, older bridge structures need to be painted more frequently than in previous years.  Lead free paint does not expand and contract with the structure as cooperatively as Lead based paints.  The paint flakes, and the steel is exposes.
 
I would think locomotives are the same.  In earlier days, paint jobs would last much longer.  But I am sure technology in the enamel industry has also changed.
-----Original Message-----
From: Cadwell, Marvin L [mailto:cadwelml@bp.com]
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 1:19 PM
To: 'Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr'; Larry Reynolds; PRR-Talk
Subject: RE: [PRR] Scalecoat Brusnwick Green

I've had the same problem described below with Floquil.  And I suspect the railroad also had the same problem, especially between shops at different locations.  And the elements were probably much more severe on paint 50-60 years ago than they are today.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr [mailto:gregvl@comcast.net]
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 1:07 PM
To: Larry Reynolds; PRR-Talk
Subject: RE: [PRR] Scalecoat Brusnwick Green

Larry-
 
Scalecoats shades are different because everytime the company contracts with a new paint manufacturer, the formula's are different.  First, look at the bottom of the bottle for color.  I had 2 bottles purchased at the same time with different shades.  If you are going to mix engine black into it, mix the brunswick green into the black to lighten it up.  If you try to darken the BG, you will put the entire bottle of black in.  My experience, I tried to darken BG with loco black.  I put the entire bottle of black and was left with 2-thirds bottle of BG.  Needless to say, I did not go out to purchase more black.  At my club, the engine has been named "The Green Hornet."  You will get much better results starting with the black and lightening up the shade.   Add the BG, mix and test.  If not satisfied, keep adding the BG until you get the color you want.
 
Dont be so picky about the shade, because once the engines were in use, in the elements, with the sun beating on them, they changed almost instantly.  Plus, weathering the locomotive( Q2's took a beating) will cover anyone's gripes about the color.  Futhermore, by the time the Q2's came along, locomotives were not being washed regularly as the PRR did in earlier days of steam.
 
My experience with Scalecoat.  Great engine to weather.  Lots of dirt, sand, and grime.  Weather it like they worked-  No time for a oily steam clean.
 
Greg V
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Larry Reynolds
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 1:51 PM
To: PRR-Talk
Subject: [PRR] Scalecoat Brusnwick Green

Guys:
 
I'm going to paint a Q2 in DGLE.  In the past I've used Scalecoat Brunswick Green, but Scalecoat has change to a much greener shade.  (I think they've been talking to the model loco manufactures!)  I want to mix the paint with black and I'm unsure of what mixture to use.  My instincts tell me to mix 1:1.  Does anyone have experience here?
 
Thanks,
 
Larry
--Boundary_(ID_Yv6s6yYNmj/N0yxvf+gV4w)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 17:23:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 # 4866 "Silver GG1" Thanks!!!!......... Well you've answered my question. I checked Mr. Volkmer's "Pennsy Electric Years" on page 35 and there she is. That silver scheme looks good when it's clean. On the slides I have of 4866, she's has her train in front of COLA tower. It's too bad they couldn't keep her clean. Once the rust ran off the pantogragh, the paint job was ruined. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] GG1 # 4866 "Silver GG1" Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 17:51:00 -0500 There is a shot of it in my book "Pennsy Electric Years" Morning Sun Books Page 35 taken by Nelson Bowers. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of zootowerprr@webtv.net Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 6:47 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRRCatenaryElectrics@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] GG1 # 4866 "Silver GG1" Hello List, For about a month now, I've been sorting through a PRR and early Penn Central slide collection. Today I came across an "odd-ball" or maybe a "rare bird" I found some slides of GG-1 # 4866 (Silver paint) on a fan trip(?) on the Port Road near COLA Tower. Maybe a fan trip. The first four cars are P70 coaches then some long distance coaches, P85 type. I don't think it's a detour train from Harrisburg. Lots of people standing around train. The train is headed east but I don't know if she's headed for Lancaster (Columbia Branch) or Perryville. The slides are not marked so I can't give a date. Anyone know of a fan trip with a Silver G on the Port Road? Any help is appreciated. Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 21:12:32 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Re: Horseshoe Curve Closed to Visitors From: "Douglas Nelson" I will stand corrected and make a correction. I was wrong that the curve being closed in winter is new. I have been there in winter, but I guess it was before the new visitor "improvements." I believe that the Railroaders Memorial Museum being closed is new and unfortunate. A couple of responses in this thread referred to the National Park Service. The NPS was involved in the design and development of the "improvements" at Horseshoe Curve, but the site is operated by the Railroaders Memorial Museum and not the NPS. The site is not an NPS property. Doug Nelson. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 00:41:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Loewy and Sharks --part1_67.5c78f89.2b3fe505_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter what hair are you trying to split? YOU WROTE: > The design firm of Hadley, Ryder and Peterson designed the "sharknose" > diesel carbody for Baldwin. Not Raymond Loewy. First use was on the BP-20 > "passenger sharks." > Peter Weiglin > San Mateo, CA > Raymond Loewy was called in by Baldwin to improve the looks (re-style) of the DR-6-4-2000 as Pennsy was finalizing the first purchase. Remember Loewy was an industrial designer and his job was to "develop" the design or concept. It is reported he took the design from the T-1 but I believe it was of a new concept altogether. The concept was two fold "conceive speed with grace" and get away from the EMD "Bull Dog" appearance. Now true Loewy didn't design the locomotive layout but he did design the concept. If you have documentation that says otherwise I would love to see it as it would be ground breaking news to me. Greg Martin --part1_67.5c78f89.2b3fe505_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter what hair are you trying to split?  YOU WROTE:

The design firm of Hadley, Ryder and Peterson designed the "sharknose" diesel carbody for Baldwin.  Not Raymond Loewy.  First use was on the BP-20 "passenger sharks."
Peter Weiglin
San Mateo, CA


Raymond Loewy was called in by Baldwin to improve the looks (re-style) of the DR-6-4-2000 as Pennsy was finalizing the first purchase. Remember Loewy was an industrial designer and his job was to "develop" the design or concept. It is reported he took the design from the T-1 but I believe it was of a new concept altogether. The concept was two fold "conceive speed with grace" and get away from the EMD "Bull Dog" appearance.  Now true Loewy didn't design the locomotive layout but he did design the concept. If you have documentation that says otherwise I would love to see it as it would be ground breaking news to me.

Greg Martin  --part1_67.5c78f89.2b3fe505_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 11:06:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] GG1 # 4866 "Silver GG1" Thanks Bill, I'm convinced that the photo in your book and the slides I have are the same fan trip. Maybe if I'm lucky,I'll find more slides of that fan trip. Thanks...... Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 19:57:38 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Raymond Loewy and the GG1 Michael A. Hmel wrote: > List: > Does anyone know the exact compensation he received for > his work Not mentioned in what I have (Autobiography, PRRT&H Society 'Keynote' article.) > and the time that was spent on this project? Unclear. 2-4 months? That was start to finish, with other projects running, time for PRR to implement the welded version, etc... Loewy casually estimates savings of a million or so from welding, 'millions' in savings over the life of the units. I respectfully suggest a certain amount of 'handwaving' in those figures. 8)>> -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 21:02:02 -0800 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] Baldwin Sharknose design Folks: Let's start with what I said in a posting on Friday, December 27, 2002 at 8:00 PM: "The design firm of Hadley, Ryder and Peterson designed the "sharknose" diesel carbody for Baldwin. Not Raymond Loewy. First use was on the BP-20 "passenger sharks." Greg Martin took issue with that statement. The statement was taken from Page 81 of the book, "Pennsy Diesels 1924-1968", by Kenneth L. Douglas and this writer, along with the comment that Mr. Loewy has often been mistakenly credited with the design. The source was John Kirkland, retired Baldwin manager, whom Ken and I interviewed on a number of occasions at his home. Mr. Kirkland was at Baldwin at the time those units were being designed, and was involved in the process. We included the statement in the book in an unqualified way because we were both surprised at Mr. Kirkland's unequivocal assertion of Loewy non-involvement. His statement was published; it appears in Mr. Kirkland's book, "The Diesel Builders, Volume 3, Baldwin", on Page 124. As with a number of other issues, Mr. Kirkland characterized the Loewy involvement as "another railfan mythical story, but not what happened." Regrettably, John Kirkland is no longer in a position to confirm this today. We will, however, continue to regard him as the best source, until and unless either (a) Something turns up that shows Mr. Loewy being hired and John's memory being in error, or biased; or (b) Something turns up showing that Hadley, Ryder and Peterson used Mr. Loewy as a subcontrator. Peter Weiglin San Mateo, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 01:14:20 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Baldwin Sharknose design --part1_79.5c31cca.2b413e3c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter and Ken Douglas in context... > Folks: > > Let's *>SNIP SNIP<* > >The statement was taken from Page 81 of the book, "Pennsy Diesels > 1924-1968," by Kenneth L. Douglas and this writer, along with the comment > that Mr. Loewy has often been mistakenly credited with the design.< That much I gathered... Nothing against the book (actually I haven't bought it yet), I just question the source of the statement... > > >The source was John Kirkland, retired Baldwin manager, whom Ken and I > interviewed on a number of occasions at his home. Mr. Kirkland was at > Baldwin at the time those units were being designed, and was involved in > the process. We included the statement in the book in an unqualified way > because we were both surprised at Mr. Kirkland's unequivocal assertion of > Loewy noninvolvement.< My question here is whether Mr. Kirkland was a member of the design team? or just "involved in the process..." Pride make men say strong statements. Here's one and I quote from a well known source, Diesels From Eddystone: The Story of Baldwin Diesel Locomotives by G. W. Dozal and SF Dozal, "When PRR and Baldwin men had huddled together to hammer out the details of the order, Pennsy's favorite industrial stylist, Raymond Loewy, was put to work to improve the units looks." I can see no reason to disbelieve what Dozal and Dozal has written as there was never a retraction or a written dispute that I am aware of. But I am not sure that they interviewed the Loewy people to verify this either, but I do think they would have researched it at Baldwin... 3^) > His statement was published; it appears in Mr. Kirkland's book, "The Diesel > Builders, Volume 3, Baldwin," on Page 124. As with a number of other > issues, Mr. Kirkland characterized the Loewy involvement as "another > railfan mythical story, but not what happened." > > Regrettably, John Kirkland is no longer in a position to confirm this > today. We will, however, continue to regard him as the best source, until > and unless either > > (a) Something turns up that shows Mr. Loewy being hired and John's memory > being in error, or biased; or > > (b) Something turns up showing that Hadley, Ryder and Peterson used Mr. > Loewy as a subcontractor. > > Peter Weiglin > San Mateo, CA I would think that if such a strong statement was to be taken as fact I would research it with the Loewy people as well. I can see why the PRR would call in Raymond to help in the creation of concept and design and I can see why Baldwin (Kirkland) might not want to credit it to him. I can see no proof to dispel the belief that Raymond Loewy was indeed involved in the Sharknose design. If we take what we read as fact, I guess I like the Dozal and Dozal fact better. Did you ever in your research question or interview Dozal and Dozal? I would consider them at least expert testimony. Greg Martin Salem, OR --part1_79.5c31cca.2b413e3c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter and Ken Douglas in context...

Folks:

Let's *>SNIP SNIP<*


>The statement was taken from Page 81 of the book, "Pennsy Diesels 1924-1968," by Kenneth L. Douglas and this writer, along with the comment that Mr. Loewy has often been mistakenly credited with the design.<



That much I gathered... Nothing against the book (actually I haven't bought it yet), I just question the source of the statement...


>The source was John Kirkland, retired Baldwin manager, whom Ken and I interviewed on a number of occasions at his home.  Mr. Kirkland was at Baldwin at the time those units were being designed, and was involved in the process. We included the statement in the book in an unqualified way because we were both surprised at Mr. Kirkland's unequivocal assertion of Loewy noninvolvement.<


My question here is whether Mr. Kirkland was a member of the design team? or just "involved in the process..." Pride make men say strong statements.

Here's one and I quote from a well known source, Diesels From Eddystone: The Story of Baldwin Diesel Locomotives by G. W.  Dozal and SF Dozal, "When PRR and Baldwin men had huddled together to hammer out the details of the order, Pennsy's favorite industrial stylist, Raymond Loewy, was put to work to improve the units looks." I can see no reason to disbelieve what Dozal and Dozal has written as there was never a retraction or a written dispute that I am aware of.  But I am not sure that they interviewed the Loewy people to verify this either, but I do think they would have researched it at Baldwin... 3^)

His statement was published; it appears in Mr. Kirkland's book, "The Diesel Builders, Volume 3, Baldwin," on Page 124. As with a number of other issues, Mr. Kirkland characterized the Loewy involvement as "another railfan mythical story, but not what happened."

Regrettably, John Kirkland is no longer in a position to confirm this today.  We will, however, continue to regard him as the best source, until and unless either

(a) Something turns up that shows Mr. Loewy being hired and John's memory being in error, or biased; or

(b) Something turns up showing that Hadley, Ryder and Peterson used Mr. Loewy as a subcontractor.

Peter Weiglin
San Mateo, CA



I would think that if such a strong statement was to be taken as fact I would research it with the Loewy people as well. I can see why the PRR would call in Raymond to help in the creation of concept and design and I can see why Baldwin (Kirkland) might not want to credit it to him. I can see no proof to dispel the belief that Raymond Loewy was indeed involved in the Sharknose design. If we take what we read as fact, I guess I like the Dozal and Dozal fact better. Did you ever in your research question or interview Dozal and Dozal? I would consider them at least expert testimony.

Greg Martin
Salem, OR



--part1_79.5c31cca.2b413e3c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Identify PRR M of W car Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 13:24:13 -0500 I will get a new photo as she is now, within two weeks and possibly get the info not clear in your photo. I'd be happy to get the new photos to you if you wish. Great New Year to all!!! All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: ; Cc: Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 7:24 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Identify PRR M of W car > According to the markings the 493827 was assigned to a track gang (MW > Department), but I can't make out the classification below the word > "TRACK." If we could figure that out we would know what the car was used > for. It looks like it might say "RS-32," which would make it a > Recreation/Riding-Sleeping car for 32 men. But I can't be too sure from > my copy of the printed photo if that's correct. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 13:43:01 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Identify PRR M of W car Weldon, If the class designation below the word "TRACK" is still showing just scan the reporting marks and other info and forward as an attachment. Thanx. Happy New Year to you and Ken as well. Al -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Weldon Greiger Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 1:24 PM To: Al Buchan; KEMACPRR@aol.com Cc: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Identify PRR M of W car I will get a new photo as she is now, within two weeks and possibly get the info not clear in your photo. I'd be happy to get the new photos to you if you wish. Great New Year to all!!! All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: ; Cc: Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 7:24 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Identify PRR M of W car > According to the markings the 493827 was assigned to a track gang (MW > Department), but I can't make out the classification below the word > "TRACK." If we could figure that out we would know what the car was > used for. It looks like it might say "RS-32," which would make it a > Recreation/Riding-Sleeping car for 32 men. But I can't be too sure > from my copy of the printed photo if that's correct. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:16:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] B6sb Update Lists, I have been a rather busy little bee over the past week or so on B6sb Model. I have taken more photos of the progress and listed them on my 1:29th Scale B6sb Webpage. The progress can be viewed here: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/B6sb.html I am open for any comments and or suggestions on the yet to be decided construction technique of the chassis. I have no machine shop. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] B6sb Update Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:54:22 +0000 Have you thought of writing up the steps for publication? You are making my efforts look bad. You have done more on this engine in the last two weeks then I have done on my entire railroad in the last year! Do you give lessons? Norm Bell > Lists, > > I have been a rather busy little bee over the past week or so on B6sb > Model. I have taken more photos of the progress and listed them on my > 1:29th Scale B6sb Webpage. The progress can be viewed here: > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/B6sb.html I am open for any > comments and or suggestions on the yet to be decided construction > technique of the chassis. I have no machine shop. Thanks, Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:16:37 -0500 From: jrobb123@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] B6sb Update Outstanding project! Keep up the good work. I realize it would be a lot of work but I agree that a construction article would certainly be an inspiration to any model railroader. After viewing the excellent photographs my enthusiasm for completing some projects has been rekindled. Joe Robbins HO, Gauge 1, and 1.5" scale modeler ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Middle division train sim Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 21:25:57 +0000 My web search didn't come up with anything but the article in MR this month indicates a Harrisburg to Galitzen train sim is out there somewhere. Anybody know how to find it? thanks, NB ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:58:24 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] PRR Equipment Trusts Hi All, I have posted to every list and asked everyone I knew looking for the trusts used to make standard X-29s, but to no avail. A friend posted my quest to the Yahoo Steam Era Freight Car group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC The Holy Grail arrived in my inbox about 1 hour ago. I would like to publicly thank Tim Gilbert tgilbert@sunlink.net for researching the trusts and responding. Feel free to add to the listing. However, please do not hit reply, because I have a lot of names in the BCC. There are a few entries with *** after them. These are where I have added the car classes as listed on the charts of PRR trust plate drawing # D402029. Thank You Bill >From the 1930 MOODY's: Series A - $31,500,000 issued March 1, 1923; $2,100,000 due annually each March 1st until 1938. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on the following equipment: - "190 steel passenger cars, 60 steel passenger combines, 475 heavy freight locomotives & tenders." Original Cost of Equipment - $39,277,248. Series B - $20,100,000 issued April 1, 1924; $1,340,000 due annually each April 1st until 1939. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on the following equipment: - 8,000 steel X-28 boxcars, 1,000 K-8 Stock Cars, 3,000 X-28 Automobile Cars. Original Cost of Equipment - $25,325,000. Series C - $15,750,000 issued October 1, 1924; $1,050,000 due annually each October 1st until 1939. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on the following equipment - 10,000 steel boxcars (no mention of sub-type). Original Cost of Equipment - $21,112,000. Series D - $17,030,000 issued May 15, 1926; $1,310,000 due annually on each May 15 until 1941. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on the following equipment - 200 Heavy Locomotives, 2,000 steel Boxcars, 74 Steel Passenger Cars, 7 Steel Passenger Combines, 125 Steel Baggage Express Cars, 8 Steel Passenger & Cafe Cars and 20 Steel Electric Passenger Cars. Original Cost of Equipment - $24,291,793. Additional in the 1940 MOODY's: Series E - $15,282,000 issued January 15, 1935; $566,000 due semi-annually on each January 15th and July 15th until 1949. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on the following equipment - 5,500 Boxcars and 1,500 Flat Cars. Original Cost of Equipment - $16,294,607. (Series E replaced temporary certificates issued May 16, June 21 and August 23, 1934.) ***X31 F30a X31F X31a built before 11-1-35 Series F - $17,945,000 issued July 15, 1935; $485,000 due semiannually each January 15th and July 15th until 1954. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured in: - 59 Electric Freight Locomotives, 28 Electric Passenger Locomotives, and 14 Electric Switching Locomotives. Original Cost for Equipment was $22,095,362. Series G - $18,420,000 issued December 1, 1935; $1,228,000 due each December 1st until 1950. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on: - 3,000 Steel Automobile Cars, 4,700 Steel Boxcars, 450 Steel Covered (Cement) Hoppers and 2,000 Steel Mill Gondolas. Original Cost of Equipment was $24,593,354. *** X31a built after 11-1-35 Series H - $7,740,000 issued May 1, 1937; $516,000 due annually each May 1st until 1952. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan secured upon the following new equipment costing $10,047,570: - 850 Steel Automobile Cars, 1,500 Steel (with wood floors) Mill-type Gondolas, 300 Steel Covered Hoppers and 11 High Speed Electric Passenger Locomotives. Series I - $6,330,000 issued July 1, 1938; $422,000 payable each July 1st until 1953. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on: - 1,000 Gondolas, 8 "Special Type Freight Cars" (?), 2 Experimental Passenger Coaches and 20 Electric Passenger Locomotives. Original Cost not to be less than $8,456,000. Series J - $8,865,000 issued October 1, 1939; $591,000 due each October 1st until 1954. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on the following new equipment: - 1,000 Steel Single-Door Boxcars, 1,500 Steel Double Door Automobile Cars and 20 Electric Passenger Locomotives for high-speed, heavy passenger train service. Original Cost was estimated to be $11,820,000. Series K - $7,995,000 issued July 1, 1940; $533,000 due each July 1st until 1955. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on the following new equipment: - 200 All-Steel Mill Gondolas, 1,900 Steel (with wood floor) mill Gondolas, 225 Steel Covered Hopper Cars, 20 Steel Heavy Duty Flat Cars, 200 All-Steel Cabin cars, 25 Steam Locomotive Tenders, 2 4-4-4-4 High Speed Passenger Locomotives with Tenders and 8 Lightweight Passenger Train Cars. Original Cost was estimated to be $9,993,750. Additional in the 1945 MOODY's: Series L - $11,925,000 issued February 1, 1941; $795,000 due each February 1st until 1956. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on new equipment comprising: - 2,000 Steel Boxcars, 2,500 All-Steel Gondolas, 200 All-Steel Cabin Cars and 5 Electric Passenger Locomotives. Original Cost of Equipment was $15,529,337. Series M - $18,465,000 issued on January 1, 1942; $1,231,000 due each January 1st through 1957. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on new equipment comprising: - 893 Boxcars, 1,211 Hoppers, 1,000 Gondolas, 20 Flat Cars, 12 Locomotive Tenders, 56 Steam Freight Engines and 20 Electric Passenger Engines. Original Cost was estimated to be $23,972,970. Series N - $12,240,000 issued March 1, 1943; $816,000 payable each March 1st through 1958. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on: - 5 Electric Passenger Locomotives, 51 Steam Locomotives, 30 Steam Locomotive Tenders, 1,000 Composite Gondolas, and 6 Diesel Switching Locomotives. Original Cost was approximately $15,300,000. Trust Agreement provided for contingency that US Gov't. might not approve all equipment. Series O - $4,155,000 issued February 1st, 1944; $277,000 due each February 1st through 1959. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured by: - 18 2-10-4 Steam Locomotives and Tenders, 200 X-38 Steel Boxcars, 300 X-38 Steel Boxcars with End Doors. Original Cost estimated to be $5,193,750. Trust Agreement provided for contingency that US Gov't. might not approve all equipment. Series P - $6,000,000 issued February 1, 1945; $400,000 due each February 1st through 1960. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured by: - 25 4-4-6-4 Steam Locomotives and Tenders, 10 X-40 All-Steel Boxcars, 290 X-41 All-Steel Boxcars and 200 X-41 All-Steel Boxcars with End Doors with estimated cost of $7,500,000. Trust Agreement provided for contingency that US Gov't. might not approve all equipment. Series Q - $18,135,000 issued July 1, 1945; $686,000 due each July 1st through 1960. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia secured by new equipment costing an estimated $22,668,750 comprising: - 45 T1 4-4-4-4 Steam Passenger Locomotives and Tenders, 2 600hp Diesel Switching Locomotives, 7 600-660hp Diesel Switching Locomotives, 3 1000hp Diesel Switching Locomotives, 92 All-Steel Passenger Cars, 5 All-Steel Baggage Lounge Cars, 5 All-Steel Dining Cars, 5 All-Steel Kitchen-Dormitory Cars, 5 All-Steel Observation-Lounge-Buffet Cars and 300 All-Steel 70-ton Covered Hoppers. Trust Agreement provided for contingency that US Gov't. might not approve all equipment. Notes: 1) Sources are the 1930, 1940 & 1945 MOODY's STEAM RAILROAD ANNUALS. If requested, I can provide more Equipment Trusts issued from 1947 and 1962-63 from other MOODY's. 2) The Trustee for all these Equipment Trusts was the Fidelity-Philadelphia Trust Co. 3) The equipment described is pretty much as MOODY's described it. Perhaps some PRR guru can provide Types (e.g. X29, etc.) and numbers of car series. 4) The only Equipment Trusts which could include X29's were Series C (October 1, 1924) & Series D (May 15, 1926). 5) Equipment Trusts were only one way to finance the acquisition of equipment. Other ways included Cash, Conditional Sales Agreements, etc. Equipment Trusts Certificates issued under the Philadelphia Plan did not represent a direct obligation of the railroad. Their security consisted of the equipment leased to the railroad and the lease both which were held by the trustee in trust for the benefit of the holders of the certificates. The leasing railroad, however, did guarantee the certificates. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mdimaio@ids.net Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 20:08:46 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR Middle Division I know where it is.. it is on my computer since I am the designer of the thing! Frank Musick should not have let the cat out of the bag. There are screen shots available in the fora at http://www.train- sim.com Currently, the last task to be done is to complete the installation of signals. Currently the signals reach from Harrisburg to Lewistown. They should all be in place by the end of January. Additionally, activities have to be designed and loco packs have to be put together. I project a release date in March. Be warned, the route has been fictionalized to a certain degree. The real Middle Division, as can be see in the real world or in the video "The Pennsylvanian" put out by Trainfans, Inc, is rather boring. All cities are on the route and one fictional community has been added. I am about to put the route up for beta testing for any one who is capable of developing loco packs or designing activities. The route starts at mile post 102 and ends at mile post 248. Michael DiMaio NB wrote: >My web search didn't come up with anything but the article in MR >this month i>ndicates a Harrisburg to Galitzen train sim is out there >somewhere. Anybody >know how to find it? thanks, NB ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 14:16:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] B6sb Update Lists, I have been a rather busy little bee over the past week or so on B6sb Model. I have taken more photos of the progress and listed them on my 1:29th Scale B6sb Webpage. The progress can be viewed here: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/B6sb.html I am open for any comments and or suggestions on the yet to be decided construction technique of the chassis. I have no machine shop. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:58:24 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Equipment Trusts Hi All, I have posted to every list and asked everyone I knew looking for the trusts used to make standard X-29s, but to no avail. A friend posted my quest to the Yahoo Steam Era Freight Car group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC The Holy Grail arrived in my inbox about 1 hour ago. I would like to publicly thank Tim Gilbert tgilbert@sunlink.net for researching the trusts and responding. Feel free to add to the listing. However, please do not hit reply, because I have a lot of names in the BCC. There are a few entries with *** after them. These are where I have added the car classes as listed on the charts of PRR trust plate drawing # D402029. Thank You Bill >From the 1930 MOODY's: Series A - $31,500,000 issued March 1, 1923; $2,100,000 due annually each March 1st until 1938. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on the following equipment: - "190 steel passenger cars, 60 steel passenger combines, 475 heavy freight locomotives & tenders." Original Cost of Equipment - $39,277,248. Series B - $20,100,000 issued April 1, 1924; $1,340,000 due annually each April 1st until 1939. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on the following equipment: - 8,000 steel X-28 boxcars, 1,000 K-8 Stock Cars, 3,000 X-28 Automobile Cars. Original Cost of Equipment - $25,325,000. Series C - $15,750,000 issued October 1, 1924; $1,050,000 due annually each October 1st until 1939. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on the following equipment - 10,000 steel boxcars (no mention of sub-type). Original Cost of Equipment - $21,112,000. Series D - $17,030,000 issued May 15, 1926; $1,310,000 due annually on each May 15 until 1941. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on the following equipment - 200 Heavy Locomotives, 2,000 steel Boxcars, 74 Steel Passenger Cars, 7 Steel Passenger Combines, 125 Steel Baggage Express Cars, 8 Steel Passenger & Cafe Cars and 20 Steel Electric Passenger Cars. Original Cost of Equipment - $24,291,793. Additional in the 1940 MOODY's: Series E - $15,282,000 issued January 15, 1935; $566,000 due semi-annually on each January 15th and July 15th until 1949. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on the following equipment - 5,500 Boxcars and 1,500 Flat Cars. Original Cost of Equipment - $16,294,607. (Series E replaced temporary certificates issued May 16, June 21 and August 23, 1934.) ***X31 F30a X31F X31a built before 11-1-35 Series F - $17,945,000 issued July 15, 1935; $485,000 due semiannually each January 15th and July 15th until 1954. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured in: - 59 Electric Freight Locomotives, 28 Electric Passenger Locomotives, and 14 Electric Switching Locomotives. Original Cost for Equipment was $22,095,362. Series G - $18,420,000 issued December 1, 1935; $1,228,000 due each December 1st until 1950. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on: - 3,000 Steel Automobile Cars, 4,700 Steel Boxcars, 450 Steel Covered (Cement) Hoppers and 2,000 Steel Mill Gondolas. Original Cost of Equipment was $24,593,354. *** X31a built after 11-1-35 Series H - $7,740,000 issued May 1, 1937; $516,000 due annually each May 1st until 1952. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan secured upon the following new equipment costing $10,047,570: - 850 Steel Automobile Cars, 1,500 Steel (with wood floors) Mill-type Gondolas, 300 Steel Covered Hoppers and 11 High Speed Electric Passenger Locomotives. Series I - $6,330,000 issued July 1, 1938; $422,000 payable each July 1st until 1953. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on: - 1,000 Gondolas, 8 "Special Type Freight Cars" (?), 2 Experimental Passenger Coaches and 20 Electric Passenger Locomotives. Original Cost not to be less than $8,456,000. Series J - $8,865,000 issued October 1, 1939; $591,000 due each October 1st until 1954. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on the following new equipment: - 1,000 Steel Single-Door Boxcars, 1,500 Steel Double Door Automobile Cars and 20 Electric Passenger Locomotives for high-speed, heavy passenger train service. Original Cost was estimated to be $11,820,000. Series K - $7,995,000 issued July 1, 1940; $533,000 due each July 1st until 1955. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on the following new equipment: - 200 All-Steel Mill Gondolas, 1,900 Steel (with wood floor) mill Gondolas, 225 Steel Covered Hopper Cars, 20 Steel Heavy Duty Flat Cars, 200 All-Steel Cabin cars, 25 Steam Locomotive Tenders, 2 4-4-4-4 High Speed Passenger Locomotives with Tenders and 8 Lightweight Passenger Train Cars. Original Cost was estimated to be $9,993,750. Additional in the 1945 MOODY's: Series L - $11,925,000 issued February 1, 1941; $795,000 due each February 1st until 1956. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on new equipment comprising: - 2,000 Steel Boxcars, 2,500 All-Steel Gondolas, 200 All-Steel Cabin Cars and 5 Electric Passenger Locomotives. Original Cost of Equipment was $15,529,337. Series M - $18,465,000 issued on January 1, 1942; $1,231,000 due each January 1st through 1957. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on new equipment comprising: - 893 Boxcars, 1,211 Hoppers, 1,000 Gondolas, 20 Flat Cars, 12 Locomotive Tenders, 56 Steam Freight Engines and 20 Electric Passenger Engines. Original Cost was estimated to be $23,972,970. Series N - $12,240,000 issued March 1, 1943; $816,000 payable each March 1st through 1958. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured on: - 5 Electric Passenger Locomotives, 51 Steam Locomotives, 30 Steam Locomotive Tenders, 1,000 Composite Gondolas, and 6 Diesel Switching Locomotives. Original Cost was approximately $15,300,000. Trust Agreement provided for contingency that US Gov't. might not approve all equipment. Series O - $4,155,000 issued February 1st, 1944; $277,000 due each February 1st through 1959. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured by: - 18 2-10-4 Steam Locomotives and Tenders, 200 X-38 Steel Boxcars, 300 X-38 Steel Boxcars with End Doors. Original Cost estimated to be $5,193,750. Trust Agreement provided for contingency that US Gov't. might not approve all equipment. Series P - $6,000,000 issued February 1, 1945; $400,000 due each February 1st through 1960. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia Plan and secured by: - 25 4-4-6-4 Steam Locomotives and Tenders, 10 X-40 All-Steel Boxcars, 290 X-41 All-Steel Boxcars and 200 X-41 All-Steel Boxcars with End Doors with estimated cost of $7,500,000. Trust Agreement provided for contingency that US Gov't. might not approve all equipment. Series Q - $18,135,000 issued July 1, 1945; $686,000 due each July 1st through 1960. Security - Issued under the Philadelphia secured by new equipment costing an estimated $22,668,750 comprising: - 45 T1 4-4-4-4 Steam Passenger Locomotives and Tenders, 2 600hp Diesel Switching Locomotives, 7 600-660hp Diesel Switching Locomotives, 3 1000hp Diesel Switching Locomotives, 92 All-Steel Passenger Cars, 5 All-Steel Baggage Lounge Cars, 5 All-Steel Dining Cars, 5 All-Steel Kitchen-Dormitory Cars, 5 All-Steel Observation-Lounge-Buffet Cars and 300 All-Steel 70-ton Covered Hoppers. Trust Agreement provided for contingency that US Gov't. might not approve all equipment. Notes: 1) Sources are the 1930, 1940 & 1945 MOODY's STEAM RAILROAD ANNUALS. If requested, I can provide more Equipment Trusts issued from 1947 and 1962-63 from other MOODY's. 2) The Trustee for all these Equipment Trusts was the Fidelity-Philadelphia Trust Co. 3) The equipment described is pretty much as MOODY's described it. Perhaps some PRR guru can provide Types (e.g. X29, etc.) and numbers of car series. 4) The only Equipment Trusts which could include X29's were Series C (October 1, 1924) & Series D (May 15, 1926). 5) Equipment Trusts were only one way to finance the acquisition of equipment. Other ways included Cash, Conditional Sales Agreements, etc. Equipment Trusts Certificates issued under the Philadelphia Plan did not represent a direct obligation of the railroad. Their security consisted of the equipment leased to the railroad and the lease both which were held by the trustee in trust for the benefit of the holders of the certificates. The leasing railroad, however, did guarantee the certificates. "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 21:39:37 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Interesting hopper Hi All, Here is an interesting hopper that was in with a group of PRR Builders photos I just bought. It is too early for my era. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/Penn_Gas_Hopper.jpg I have never seen the paint scheme before. The writing on the back says Gla at East Altoona. Enjoy! Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 20:41:25 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: [PRR] NKP PRR car kits Happy Holidays! I just recieved my PB70D from NKP...now I have to build the thing ! Having never ventured into the area of brass car sides, I have a couple of questions: 1) It looks as if the first step is to attach the vestibule doors to the sides. How do I do this? solder or glue? 2) Once I get the doors on, how do I make the grabs stay on? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 21:39:37 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Interesting hopper Hi All, Here is an interesting hopper that was in with a group of PRR Builders photos I just bought. It is too early for my era. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/Penn_Gas_Hopper.jpg I have never seen the paint scheme before. The writing on the back says Gla at East Altoona. Enjoy! Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 22:11:17 -0500

I was looking at brass engines on ebay recently out of boredom and saw a couple Sunset K4's. Having owned one of these engines and having been very dissatisfied with it, it got me thinking about what have been the worst Pennsy models. This engine gets my nomination along with the PFM I1 with the wrong size boiler. 
Eric Lauterbach
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 22:27:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines Eric, The worst of all PRR Steamers was the Alco Models E5s 4-4-2. I know, I had one years ago when it first come out. I have yet known of any that actually had good service for its owner. The tender was just as bad, a make believe class. Speaking of the PFM I1s. I have always heard of this skinny boiler run of 1 year (1971?). Recently I have heard that it really wasn't a skinny boiler after all. I heard that the position of the dual airtanks were at a lower level making the boiler appear undersize. This I believe came from Howard Zane on an eBay auction. I havn't been able to confirm this myself by inspecting the different runs. And Yes, stay away from that very poor rendition of a K4 from Sunset Prestige Models. I rank that as #2 on the list of Junk.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: Re: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 22:34:45 -0500 I had a brass dealer tell me that the way to tell if my PFM I1 boiler was the wrong size was to see if the boiler front from my PFM L1 would fit perfectly in it. Of the Sunset steamers, I have been pleased with all mine except the K4. The A5 and B6sb seem to be very good deals. Eric Lauterbach ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 22:43:44 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines Since you didn't limit this to steam or brass, how about the Athearn F7 in tuscan passenger scheme. Jeff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen R. (Steve) Sejda" Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 23:00:10 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines The infamous Tyco GG1.... shoulda' been used in those "This is your brain on drugs... Any Questions?" commercials. Happy New Year to All! Steve Sejda On 30 Dec 2002 at 22:11, Eric Lauterbach wrote: > I was looking at brass engines on ebay recently out of boredom and saw > a couple Sunset K4's. Having owned one of these engines and having > been very dissatisfied with it, it got me thinking about what have > been the worst Pennsy models. This engine gets my nomination along > with the PFM I1 with the wrong size boiler. Eric Lauterbach > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Phil Paskos" Subject: Re: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 00:38:39 -0500 Speaking of GG1's, the shrunken Lionel's were pretty bad. Phil > The infamous Tyco GG1.... shoulda' been used in those "This is your brain on > drugs... Any Questions?" commercials. > > Happy New Year to All! > > Steve Sejda > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 06:30:15 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C2B096.14930E80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've had my Sunset K4s with long haul tender for 25 years. I've had the gear tower replaced, drivers re-quartered (by the Gear Box) and filled the boiler with lead. It has pulled 16 cars - 3 brass, 4 Bachmann and 9 AHM with new trucks or wheelsets without the least bit of trouble. Runs like a champ - DCC and sound next. My vote for worst brass is the Alco Models Alco RSD15 - can't get all three axils on a truck to run together - gears don't mesh too well - two axils are okay though - big loss in pulling power. Plastic would be the Model Power E7 with its super big can motor, yea it has great low end torque - but it doesn't go more than 25 smph. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com.trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Eric Lauterbach Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 10:11 PM To: prr-talk Subject: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines I was looking at brass engines on ebay recently out of boredom and saw a couple Sunset K4's. Having owned one of these engines and having been very dissatisfied with it, it got me thinking about what have been the worst Pennsy models. This engine gets my nomination along with the PFM I1 with the wrong size boiler. Eric Lauterbach ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C2B096.14930E80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I&= #8217;ve had my Sunset K4s with long haul tender for 25 years.  I’ve had the gear tower replaced, drivers = re-quartered (by the Gear Box) and filled the boiler with = lead.

It= has pulled 16 cars – 3 brass, 4 Bachmann and 9 AHM with new trucks or = wheelsets without the least bit of trouble. Runs like a champ – DCC and = sound next.

&n= bsp;

My= vote for worst brass is the Alco Models Alco RSD15 – can’t get = all three axils on a truck to run together – gears don’t mesh too well – = two axils are okay though – big loss in pulling power.

&n= bsp;

Pl= astic would be the Model Power E7 with its super big can motor, yea it has = great low end torque – but it doesn’t go more than 25 = smph.

 

 

Cos

=

Wayne S. = Betty

Cos Communications, Inc.

=

Small = business IT services.

=

 

Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road

=

NMRA, = MER, Susquehanna Div, 11

=

NHRS, = Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061

=

http://www.wsbcos.com.trainsmenu.htm

at the west end of the PRR electrified = zone

=

<= span class=3DEmailStyle16> 

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf = Of Eric Lauterbach
Sent: Monday, December = 30, 2002 10:11 PM
To: prr-talk
Subject: [PRR] What are = the worst models of Pennsy Engines

 

I was looking at brass engines on ebay recently out of = boredom and saw a couple Sunset K4's. Having owned one of these engines and having = been very dissatisfied with it, it got me thinking about what have been the = worst Pennsy models. This engine gets my nomination along with the PFM I1 with = the wrong size boiler. 

Eric Lauterbach

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0000_01C2B096.14930E80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 07:19:30 -0500 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines Gents, Boy oh boy, that's a tough question, but I have a hands (and thumbs) down candidate: the PFM/Tenshodo F7 cab unit. If they offered their FT in Pennsy, which I think they did, that would be the worst looking of all. In fact, the nose on these units make the old Varney F3 look like an Athearn Genesis unit. By the way, didn't PFM use their K4 boiler for the I1, at least initially? Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 13:53:15 +0000 I can't believe the number of people that buy those Tyco G's on E Bay. Maybe because everybody trying to sell them say's, "RARE!!!". > Speaking of GG1's, the shrunken Lionel's were pretty bad. > > Phil > > > The infamous Tyco GG1.... shoulda' been used in those "This is your brain > on > > drugs... Any Questions?" commercials. > > > > Happy New Year to All! > > > > Steve Sejda > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:02:01 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines With the five stripes changing over to one very broad stripe on the nose! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jeff Warner wrote: > Since you didn't limit this to steam or brass, how about the Athearn F7 > in tuscan passenger scheme. > > Jeff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:28:05 +0000 Andy, Jeff, and the List: It was bad enough for Athearn to come out with a tuscan red F-7 and a 5-stripe, brunswick green F-7 back in the '50's/'60's. But to continuously offer these two engines over the years TO THIS VERY DAY is reason that the Athearn PRR F-7 (non Genesis) should at least get honorable mention. Don't you think that they would have gotten a "few" letters over the years pointing out the errors? On a related note, Athearn just released an A-B set of their old F-7 in NYC lightning stripes. Very nice. It would be neat if they did that for the Pennsylvania...correct shade of brunswick green with a SINGLE stripe, just like the prototypes. :) If they did a great job on them, I would buy a set. Happy New Year! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana >From: "Andrew S. Miller" >To: Jeff Warner >CC: prr-talk >Subject: Re: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines >Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:02:01 -0500 > >With the five stripes changing over to one very broad stripe on the nose! > >Regards, > >Andy Miller >asmiller@mitre.org > >================================================== >Jeff Warner wrote: > > > Since you didn't limit this to steam or brass, how about the Athearn F7 > > in tuscan passenger scheme. > > > > Jeff > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail&xAPID=42&PS=47575&PI=7324&DI=7474&SU= http://www.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/getmsg&HL=1216hotmailtaglines_addphotos_3mf ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 06:39:16 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Alco __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 11:30:09 -0500 From: Tom Hayden Subject: Re: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines List, Maybe we can settle this. First, I did contact Howard Zane directly after his e-bay comment on the I-1 and he wrote, " I mis-spoke. The air tanks were larger in the second run causing the pilot deck platform to be higher" so it's not just that the tanks were "raised" on later runs, but were actually larger tanks. More importantly I did a small study of the boiler diameters - more correctly,smokebox diameters- based on models I owned or had access to. Here's what I have so far : I have checked the drawings from Alvin Stauffer's small (3"x8") book of PRR loco drawings (with numerical dimensions provided) and confirming that with measurements taken on a few scale drawings I have of the I1 and M1. These are the dimensions at the smokebox: I1, M1, M1a, are all 88.5" K4, L1 are 82 " In measuring all the models I and others own : I1's Key I1 .984 = 85.6" (2.9 " under) PennLine I1 .945 = 82.2" (darn close for a K4) Bowser I1 1.044 = 90.8" (2.3 " over ) ( this is the new zinc casting) PFM I1 1.013 = 88.1 (darn close) (friend's msmt on his late "correct" size) Sunset I1 1.036 = 90.1 (1.6" over) (friend's msmt on his model) M1's Gem M1a(2) 1.025 = 89.2" (0.7 " over) Sunset M1a 1.025 = 89.2" (0.7" over) K4s/L1's PFM K4s .964 = 83.9" (1.9" over) (my msmt on MY model) PFM K4s .9725 = 84.6 (2.6" over) (friend's msmt on his model) PFM L1 .970 = 84.4 (2.4" over) Red Ball K4 .962 = 83.7 (1.7" over) Penn Line K4 .945 = 82.2 (darn close) I am guessing that the difference in PFM K4s dimensions are due to different measurement technique by two different people, but such a small difference could also be due to different runs. My measurements were made directly across the smokebox front. If anyone out there has a PFM I1s with the "smaller" looking boiler, maybe they could make a measurement and add to this. Regards, Tom Hayden >Subject: Re: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines >From: "Gary Mittner" >Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 22:27:10 -0500 (EST) > >Eric, > > > Speaking of the PFM I1s. I have always heard of this skinny boiler >run of 1 year (1971?). Recently I have heard that it really wasn't a >skinny boiler after all. I heard that the position of the dual airtanks >were at a lower level making the boiler appear undersize. This I believe >came from Howard Zane on an eBay auction. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:17:24 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/31/02 --part1_10d.1d677fc6.2b434744_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Worst PRR locomotive models - how about all of the PRR steam engine's out there without a belpair boiler. Yuk! Bob Martin --part1_10d.1d677fc6.2b434744_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Worst PRR  locomotive models - how about all of the PRR steam engine's out there without a belpair boiler.  Yuk!

Bob Martin --part1_10d.1d677fc6.2b434744_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:33:13 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/31/02 On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 Cprrboss@aol.com wrote: > Worst PRR locomotive models - how about all of the PRR steam engine's out > there without a belpair boiler. Yuk! That's not strictly true. There were after all "foreign road" purchases, predecessor road units, and USRA units. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr6100@aol.com Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 15:56:13 EST Subject: [PRR] (no subject) --part1_104.236b532e.2b435e6d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What are the best models of pennsy engines? Who cares about junk. --part1_104.236b532e.2b435e6d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What are the best models of pennsy engines? Who cares about junk. --part1_104.236b532e.2b435e6d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:07:25 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject) On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 Prr6100@aol.com wrote: > What are the best models of pennsy engines? Who cares about junk. I can't tell you about brass, but the Athearn Genesis F-7s have to be either the best or right up there. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 15:05:50 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: [PRR] Best/Worst - Walthers Budd cars This just in! Walthers will run the Budd Co dome cars in PRR. This is an ADVANCE RESERVATION item. You know how fast the Budd cars go so you'd better get yours while they last!! Just trying to be a helpful public servant ;^) (Here's hoping Walther's bases future PRR work on sales of the R50B, not the Budd dome!) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:21:50 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C2B0E8.B9582CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My vote goes to S-Helper Service for there F-7 and SW-1, fantastic = details. Just an S-scalers opinion. Ken ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Prr6100@aol.com=20 To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 3:56 PM Subject: [PRR] (no subject) What are the best models of pennsy engines? Who cares about junk.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C2B0E8.B9582CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 My vote goes to S-Helper Service = for=20 there F-7 and SW-1, fantastic details. Just an S-scalers opinion.=20 Ken
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Prr6100@aol.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, December 31, = 2002 3:56=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] (no = subject)

What are the best models = of pennsy=20 engines? Who cares about junk. = ------=_NextPart_000_0061_01C2B0E8.B9582CA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:22:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject) It is always nice to knoow what models to stay away from, that is why the question for the worse models ever. Here is another candidate for the worse. Anyone remember the styrene PRR Cabin Cars (N5c and N6b) from Casey's Trains? My God, how could someone package a kit like that. I would be embarassed if I did that.         As for the best? It is hard to beat the Key J1 J1a Locos.......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/31/02 Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:26:06 -0700 As I sent to the previous poster...don't forget the ones that Altoona built, such as class B6sa and (how could I forget) J1 and J1a... But, then these are 12" to the foot scale... Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:33:13 -0500 (EST) Derrick J Brashear wrote: > On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 Cprrboss@aol.com wrote: > > > Worst PRR locomotive models - how about all of the PRR > steam engine's out > > there without a belpair boiler. Yuk! > > That's not strictly true. There were after all "foreign > road" purchases, > predecessor road units, and USRA units. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:35:05 -0500 One of the reasons I ask the question was because I was curious about which models to stay way from. I have always heard that the GEM T1 is not a very good model, is this true? Eric Lauterbach ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 16:17:35 -0600 While a superb running locomotive, the Westside M1a had a multitude of detail inaccuracies, such as a poor representation of the feed water heater, etc. -----Original Message----- From: Tom Hayden [mailto:thayden@keithley.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:30 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines List, Maybe we can settle this. First, I did contact Howard Zane directly after his e-bay comment on the I-1 and he wrote, " I mis-spoke. The air tanks were larger in the second run causing the pilot deck platform to be higher" so it's not just that the tanks were "raised" on later runs, but were actually larger tanks. More importantly I did a small study of the boiler diameters - more correctly,smokebox diameters- based on models I owned or had access to. Here's what I have so far : I have checked the drawings from Alvin Stauffer's small (3"x8") book of PRR loco drawings (with numerical dimensions provided) and confirming that with measurements taken on a few scale drawings I have of the I1 and M1. These are the dimensions at the smokebox: I1, M1, M1a, are all 88.5" K4, L1 are 82 " In measuring all the models I and others own : I1's Key I1 .984 = 85.6" (2.9 " under) PennLine I1 .945 = 82.2" (darn close for a K4) Bowser I1 1.044 = 90.8" (2.3 " over ) ( this is the new zinc casting) PFM I1 1.013 = 88.1 (darn close) (friend's msmt on his late "correct" size) Sunset I1 1.036 = 90.1 (1.6" over) (friend's msmt on his model) M1's Gem M1a(2) 1.025 = 89.2" (0.7 " over) Sunset M1a 1.025 = 89.2" (0.7" over) K4s/L1's PFM K4s .964 = 83.9" (1.9" over) (my msmt on MY model) PFM K4s .9725 = 84.6 (2.6" over) (friend's msmt on his model) PFM L1 .970 = 84.4 (2.4" over) Red Ball K4 .962 = 83.7 (1.7" over) Penn Line K4 .945 = 82.2 (darn close) I am guessing that the difference in PFM K4s dimensions are due to different measurement technique by two different people, but such a small difference could also be due to different runs. My measurements were made directly across the smokebox front. If anyone out there has a PFM I1s with the "smaller" looking boiler, maybe they could make a measurement and add to this. Regards, Tom Hayden >Subject: Re: [PRR] What are the worst models of Pennsy Engines >From: "Gary Mittner" >Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 22:27:10 -0500 (EST) > >Eric, > > > Speaking of the PFM I1s. I have always heard of this skinny boiler >run of 1 year (1971?). Recently I have heard that it really wasn't a >skinny boiler after all. I heard that the position of the dual airtanks >were at a lower level making the boiler appear undersize. This I believe >came from Howard Zane on an eBay auction. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/31/02 Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:19:50 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C2B0F9.35349920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Cprrboss@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:17 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/31/02 Worst PRR locomotive models - how about all of the PRR steam engine's out there without a belpair boiler. Yuk! Bob Martin The J1's look okay, and I would not turn one away either. I may think twice about an N2 too. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com.trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C2B0F9.35349920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf = Of Cprrboss@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, December = 31, 2002 2:17 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Re: = PRR-Talk Digest - 12/31/02

 

Worst PRR  locomotive models - how about all of the PRR steam engine's = out there without a belpair boiler.  Yuk!

Bob Martin

=

 

 

Th= e J1’s look okay, and I would not turn one away = either.

I = may think twice about an N2 too.

 

Cos

=

Wayne S. = Betty

Cos Communications, Inc.

=

Small = business IT services.

=

 

Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road

=

NMRA, = MER, Susquehanna Div, 11

=

NHRS, = Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061

=

http://www.wsbcos.com.trainsmenu.htm

at the west end of the PRR electrified = zone

=

<= span class=3DEmailStyle15> 

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C2B0F9.35349920-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 19:06:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject) In a message dated 12/31/02 3:13:22 PM Central Standard Time, shadow@dementia.org writes: << I can't tell you about brass, but the Athearn Genesis F-7s have to be either the best or right up there. >> Once you remove the extra horn and do something (don't know what, yet) about the mediocre mechanism. But on the bright side, the colors are right and the shell casting is great. BTW, they still haven't solved the problem of the popoff stainless grilles, but I can't fault them for that---no one else has, either. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 19:10:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Best/Worst - Walthers Budd cars In a message dated 12/31/02 3:13:24 PM Central Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << Here's hoping Walther's bases future PRR work on sales of the R50B >> I liked the R50b sample I saw, but I have been informed by one Walthers employee acquaintance that the sample was handpainted and we will probably all be even more pleased with the production paint jobs. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 19:14:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject) In a message dated 12/31/02 3:26:24 PM Central Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << Anyone remember the styrene PRR Cabin Cars (N5c and N6b) from Casey's Trains? >> Gary you win. Nothing in model railroading comes close to that "kit". I regret to this day that I did not follow up on my intent to notify Kalmbach of that most misleading advertisement. Bob (Wanna buy one?) Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 19:21:01 -0500 I don't have a Gem T-1. But from the photos that I have seen, it lacks a lot of detail. I think that the overall proportions of the engine look good. However, I do not know anything about the running gear. Gem units imported from Seiko were sort of iffy. I own two Seiko M-1's and they run great. However, I have heard others with some pretty bad experiences with their M-1's (binding value assemblies, wheels that are not true, etc. I also am wondering about the S-1 (6-4-4-6). I know that Gem came out with one about 1968. Then NJI / Custom Brass came out with one in 1981. Lastly, Key imports came out with one in the mid-90's. While I would acknowledge that the Key imports is the best overall, it is the most expensive. If you find one for sale, be prepared to pay at least $1800. My question is: which of the Gem or NJI units is the better of the two? The NJI would have more detail than the Gem, but I do not know about overall proportions and quality of the drive train. Any thoughts or comments? TIA Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Lauterbach" To: "prr-talk" Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] (no subject) > One of the reasons I ask the question was because I was curious about which > models to stay way from. I have always heard that the GEM T1 is not a very > good model, is this true? > Eric Lauterbach > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 20:11:51 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] The worst nah, this is the worst Bob Martin writes: > Worst PRR locomotive models - how about all of the PRR > steam engine's out there without a belpair boiler. Yuk! > > Bob Martin Hey Bob, I hope you are not talking about the Life Like P2K USRA 0-6-0 as it is a viable locomotive and the Athearn USRA is nice albeit the boiler diameter is TOO SMALL! But I have to agree all of the "toyish steam locos" that the industry have passed off on us with Pennsylvania on the side are usless. I have two Con Cor E-7 at home that I will use for my PRR units and I have to say that maybe I was lucky 'cause mine run like watches and at reasonable speeds. One basket case that wasn't mentioned was the Atlas RS-3...YUCK! It might run nice but trash the shell and pair it with a plastic Hobbytown shell or an MDC(better choice)and do the necesssary mod's. Or just rework the original MDC underframe (which I love) or better yet buy the new one that has the near LL P2k powerframe. Greg Martin Salem, OR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 21:11:55 -0500 From: bearcreekwest@netscape.net Subject: [PRR] eBay items - Passenger Sharks For those who might have an interest, there are two AB pairs of BP20 units for sale on eBay - one unpainted, the other painted. Auction for these items ends on Jan 5. Auction numbers are #3103733305 and #3103733315. __________________________________________________________________ The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!!