From: "Phil Paskos" Subject: Re: [PRR] H21 with differernt trucks Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 00:15:15 -0500 I wonder how much they cost against what they were using? Phil > Gary, > > I think that the problem with these was not the roller > bearings, but the placement of them inside the wheelface. > Maintenance would have been a real problem in this > extremely dirty application. Also I wonder if the shorter > axle and the attendant loading was a problem. And there is > the reality that they may have been too "different". As you > have probably noticed, inside bearings never did take off > for freight usage. > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > > On Sat, 30 Nov 2002 18:01:03 -0500 (EST) > mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) wrote: > > Bill, > > > > Those trucks were an experimental design with inside > > roller > > bearings. Timkin was invloved with these. I believe a > > 100 car train was > > equiped for a test. Not sure why the idea didn't fly. We > > all know what > > roller bearings can do...Gary > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Rick Schoch Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 01:00:25 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: [PRR-Modeling] H21 with different trucks Aren't these the inside-bearing trucks that the previous guys were talking about? Or am I missing something? HAHAHA...Anyway, they do look like an inaccessible maintenance problem, like the disc brakes the PRR also shunned on passenger cars. (I remember a Budd Silverliner which I'm pretty sure was 261 testing the tread brakes through Ardmore with the test wiring going through the windows.) Meself I remember 70 ton hoppers with Andrews trucks being pushed up Merion Hill by the BS24's. I remember comparing the bearings on those pushers with the outside bearings on what I now know were the E44's, and watching the caps go round, a little kid at ground level ca. 1961, then getting a better perspective and marveling at how the yellow ball cars had those outside bearing caps. I still have a thing for friction bearing Bettendorf trucks though. Tug ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> ˇFREE Health Insurance Quotes-eHealthInsurance.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/1.voSB/RnFFAA/46VHAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] H21 with differernt trucks Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 08:07:28 -0700 Bob and all. In the Wayner book, "CARS OF THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD", there is a picture of a coach (P70 I believe) equipped with inboard bearing trucks...remarkable similar to the Superliner truck of a more modern era...but it too was considered unsucessful at the time. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 10:10:51 EST Subject: [PRR] South Wind consists Just to add another detail to the NP dome issue, the book Midwest Florida Streamliners by R. LyleKey Jr. gives the years of operation for these cars as follows: 1959-60 South Wind and City of Miami 1964-68 South Wind and City of Miami As I previously indicated, this was the NP slab-side Budd dome car which later, to the best of my knowledge, was the dome on the Amrtrak Capitol Limited. >From 1971 to a date I haven't determined, domes returned to the Amtrak South Wind successor. Fluted side MP domes came to the IC City of Miami in 1968. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Holly Open House dates Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 10:25:37 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C29923.FD6C6640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lewis: I assume you could not make it on Saturday. You have a few = more dates. A surprise to me was a member brought up a version of the = Broadway Limited built by the late Bill Wolfer. I can't make it today, but hope to be there one day of the next two = weekends. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Weldon Greiger=20 To: Lewis J. Matt PhD=20 Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Holly Open House dates SURE!!! Take I-75 in Michigan to exit #98. Head west on East Holly = Road to the first traffic signal. ( about 5 miles) As you turn right at the light, we are the second door on the right. = The Club is in the old Holly Theatre. The old marquee is still visible. If you come from US 23, exit at the Linden/Silver Lake exit # 79. = Drive about 1 mile to Leroy in Fenton. Turn left and cross the former = GTW Holly Sub and turn right on to Main Street (Grange Hall Road). At = that point follow the signs, "To I-75". Travel about 4 miles and turn = right at the second traffic light. North Holly Road (Saginaw Street). = Drive about 1 mile south. On the left will be the old Holly Theatre. Come see the trains. Later in the day, I'll have my Q-2 and HH-1 = running. If anyone from this list identifies themselves, I'll drag out = 2 of George Kohs' GG-1's again later in the day. I will have an A-B set = of BP-20's running separately from a BP-20 A an EP-22 A paired = together. I may add an AP-2- (Alco PA to that duo) I also will have a = pair of I1sa's double headed. The GP-9 A and B will periodically run as = well. You want to see PRR in 2 rail "O" scale, today is the day. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lewis J. Matt PhD=20 To: Weldon Greiger=20 Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 7:34 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Holly Open House dates Since you responded on the PRR talk list, should we assume that we = are all invited? Wouldn't it be nice, then, to include directions? Lew Matt ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Weldon Greiger=20 To: Floydefoust@aol.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 9:20 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: Holly Open House dates Hi Floyd: We are open this weekend, Friday Saturday and Sunday = Noon to 5 PM. December 1 & 2 and December 8 & 9,, Y'all come !!! I will be there this Saturday All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Floydefoust@aol.com=20 To: crashtech@chartermi.net=20 Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 7:17 AM Subject: Holly Open House dates Hi Weldon, I haven't seen any flyers on your open house dates this holiday = season. Is the club open on weekends between now and Christmas? What = hours? Thanks, Floyd ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C29923.FD6C6640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lewis:   I = assume you could=20 not make it on Saturday.  You have a few more dates.  A = surprise to me=20 was a member brought up a version of the Broadway Limited built by the = late Bill=20 Wolfer.
 
I can't make it today, = but hope to be=20 there one day of the next two weekends.
 
All the best to you and = yours     Weldon
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Weldon=20 Greiger
Sent: Saturday, November 30, = 2002 9:50=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Holly = Open House=20 dates

SURE!!!   = Take I-75 in=20 Michigan to exit #98.  Head west on East Holly Road to the first = traffic=20 signal.  ( about 5 miles)
As you turn right at = the=20 light, we are the second door on the right.  The Club is in = the old=20 Holly Theatre.  The old marquee is still visible.
 
If you come from US = 23, exit at the=20 Linden/Silver Lake exit  # 79.  Drive about 1 mile to Leroy = in=20 Fenton.  Turn left and cross the former GTW Holly Sub and = turn right=20 on to Main Street (Grange Hall Road).  At that point follow the = signs,=20 "To I-75".  Travel about 4 miles and turn right at the = second=20 traffic light. North Holly Road (Saginaw Street).  Drive about 1 = mile=20 south.  On the left will be the old Holly Theatre.
 
Come see the = trains.  Later in=20 the day, I'll have my Q-2 and HH-1 running.  If anyone from this = list=20 identifies themselves, I'll drag out 2 of George Kohs' GG-1's again = later in=20 the day.  I will have an A-B set of BP-20's running separately = from =20 a BP-20 A an EP-22 A paired together. I may add an AP-2- (Alco PA = to that=20 duo)  I also will have a pair of I1sa's double headed.  The = GP-9 A=20 and B will periodically run as well.
 
You want to see PRR = in 2 rail "O"=20 scale, today is the day.
 
All the best to you = and=20 yours     Weldon
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lewis = J. Matt=20 PhD
Sent: Saturday, November 30, = 2002 7:34=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Holly = Open House=20 dates

Since you responded on the PRR talk = list,=20 should we assume that we are all invited?  Wouldn't it be nice, = then,=20 to include directions?
 
Lew Matt
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Weldon Greiger
To: Floydefoust@aol.com ; prr-talk@dsop.com
Sent: Friday, November 29, = 2002 9:20=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] Re: Holly = Open House=20 dates

Hi = Floyd:   We are=20 open this weekend, Friday Saturday and Sunday  Noon to 5=20 PM.
 
December 1 & = 2 and December=20 8 & 9,, Y'all come !!!
 
I will be there = this=20 Saturday
 
All the best to = you and=20 yours     Weldon
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Floydefoust@aol.com =
To: crashtech@chartermi.net =
Sent: Friday, November = 29, 2002=20 7:17 AM
Subject: Holly Open House = dates

Hi Weldon,

I haven't seen any flyers = on your=20 open house dates this holiday season.  Is the club open on = weekends=20 between now and Christmas?   What=20 hours?

Thanks,
Floyd=20 =
= ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C29923.FD6C6640-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 12:20:52 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] X33a Hi All, Does anyone have a good side shot of an X33a? I would prefer Shadow Keystone, but Circle Keystone would work too if all the data was legible. Any help would be most appreciated! Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 12:33:41 EST Subject: [PRR] Shadow Keystone and Circle keystone --part1_129.1c4885ef.2b1ba1f5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, I was wondering about the Shadow Keystones and the circle Keystones? Were these time specific, or put on certain cars? I suspect time specific! Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001 PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_129.1c4885ef.2b1ba1f5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List,

I was wondering about the Shadow Keystones and the circle Keystones?  Were these time specific, or put on certain cars?  I suspect time specific! 

Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
NMRA 122734 00 since Jan. 2001
PRRT&HS  #7136
List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo
 --part1_129.1c4885ef.2b1ba1f5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 12:20:52 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] X33a Hi All, Does anyone have a good side shot of an X33a? I would prefer Shadow Keystone, but Circle Keystone would work too if all the data was legible. Any help would be most appreciated! Thanks Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: [PRR] 5011 class Texans Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 15:41:59 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C29950.2F8872A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gents: Does anyone know who built the 5011 class Santa Fe Texas types that were = leased by the PRR? Larry ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C29950.2F8872A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gents:
 
Does anyone know who built the 5011 = class Santa Fe=20 Texas types that were leased by the PRR?
 
Larry
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C29950.2F8872A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 17:28:14 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] 5011 class Texans Greetings to Larry and the List: 25 engines, blt by Baldwin 1944, road #s 5011-5035 Source: Drury's Guide to North American Steam Locomotives, Kalmbach. Dan Cupper --------------------------- > Larry Reynolds wrote: > > Gents: > > Does anyone know who built the 5011 class Santa Fe Texas types that > were leased by the PRR? > > Larry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 16:42:43 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - H-21 with different trucks] From: Beth Caples Those trucks are cool. I should model them them just because they are different. Then listen to the critics who say "It ain't prototypical"! Then show them the evidence! John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] 5011 class Texans Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 16:06:36 -0700 FWIW, almost all of Santa Fe's steam locomotives were built by Baldwin...including these. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Sun, 1 Dec 2002 15:41:59 -0500 "Larry Reynolds" wrote: > Gents: > > Does anyone know who built the 5011 class Santa Fe Texas > types that were leased by the PRR? > > Larry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 21:15:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Shadow Keystone and Circle keystone Mike, They are time specific. The shadow Keystone was applied beginning in February 1954 and lasted until 1959. Following the shadow keystone was the plain keystone which lasted until the end of PRR. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: SUVCWORR@aol.com From: RichofScot@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 21:20:48 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] X33a Bill: There are two side shots of the X33a in the PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment vol 2 pg 42. Both as SK2a and all the data is readily visible. Rich Orr "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 21:20:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] X33a Bill: There are two side shots of the X33a in the PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment vol 2 pg 42. Both as SK2a and all the data is readily visible. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] 46th St and Race St Engine Houses Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 19:37:54 -0800 It seems there are a number of yards that need to be addressed. I can only remember as far back as the Penn Central doing some light switching in the area, so perhaps someone can fill in all the details for me. According to the map of Zoo on Mark Bej's site, there was something called the 37th street yard behind Zoo tower between 40th street and the start up to the highline. I think I've seen photos of coal cars in this yard. Was this storage for the power plant near 30th st station? Not on the map, but I've seen pictures, was another yard on the Pittsburgh-NY side of the Zoo Wye. I'm recalling an arial photo in Pennsy Power 3, I think. What was this called, and what was it for? Then between 40th and 44th sts, was just running tracks? At least that's what it was during Penn Central. Then west of 44th st, the tracks widen out into another yard. Is this what is being referred to as 46th st yard? Then things narrow and go under the track 4 jumpover at 52nd and more yard tracks continue all the way to Overbrook. Is this what is being referred to as 52nd st yard? This had passenger equipment at one time? I seem to recall it mainly having high-cube box cars. John -----Original Message----- From: Bill To: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Cc: John Cooper ; zootowerprr@webtv.net ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, November 29, 2002 4:55 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] 46th St and Race St Engine Houses >Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr wrote: >> >> Down by 46th street was the engine terminal, freight transfer, and freight >> yard. 52nd was for coaches. The yard spans a good number of block before >> 46th and after 52nd. 46th street yard then continues directly into Zoo >> interlock then 30th street. > >The coach yard extended to at least the 57th/59th Street bridge (which >currently divides the abandoned Acme warehouse from Pierce-Phelps at the >railroad level). The Overbrook High baseball field was on the >Pierce-Phelps side and was also a staging area for the PRSL coaches. >One of the PHL Chapter PRRT&HS members told me of the experience of >playing on '37 'Brook baseball team and seeing one of the streamlined >K4's being out in the yard area. He lost his concentration so >much/often from staring at the engine that the coach took him out of the >game! > >Bill Morlitz > > > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of John >> Cooper >> Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 1:59 PM >> To: zootowerprr@webtv.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com >> Subject: Re: [PRR] 46th St and Race St Engine Houses >> >> > The 46th street Engine House was "in" the 52nd Street Yard. 48th >> >and Parkside Ave was the location of the roundhouse. >> >> Looking at some maps and satelite imagery, it looks like it would have been >> in the "northeast" corner of the yard, out where some running tracks ran >> along the north perimeter of the yard. Is this correct? The satelite >> imagery from 1992 shows something round in that area. Would that have been >> the turntable? >> >> > "Race St." is the engine pit at 30th Street Station next to the >> >Penn Coach Yard. >> >> Oh, I know where that is. Thanks. >> >> John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 23:50:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] 46th St and Race St Engine Houses Hello John, The "37 Street Yard" at one time was used to store passenger equipment. That was before 30th street station,Penn Coach yard was completed. Like you, most of the photos I've seen of the 37th street yards had loaded coal cars. "MI" Switch Cabin (44th Street) was at the west end of the 37th street yard. I don't know why the coal being stored at 37th street but there were a few large coal dealers on Parkside Ave. The other yard you are referring to is the Mantua Freight yard. That was for E/B trains out of 52nd yard. Later years it held M of W and bad order cars. PRR closed up shop in the 1960s. Penn Central was still using parts of 52nd street yard. Lots of weeds. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Dec 2002 23:49:41 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] 46th St and Race St Engine Houses John Cooper asked> Not on the map, but I've seen pictures, was another yard on the Pittsburgh-NY side of the Zoo Wye. I'm recalling an aerial photo in Pennsy Power 3, I think. What was this called, and what was it for? We called it Mantua yard - it was the Philadelphia Division's MW yard. I ordered work trains out of there when General Foreman on the track lowering project on ML NY-PHL between 33rd and Diamond Streets in 1964. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 00:06:28 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. via Lines West) In a message dated 11/21/02 1:11:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > Subject: TRS-Tank Reefer Stock > From: "Al Buchan" > Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:12:29 -0500 > > Well at least one person wanted to hear more about the PRR westbound TRS > arranged freight service. > > Because of the imbalance of loads eastward and mtys westward in tank, > reefer and stock cars the PRR ran mty trains of these classes of cars > back west using the arranged freight symbol TRS - Tanks-Reefers-Stock. > These ran at least in the 1920s and 1930s. I don't have any 1940s > arranged freight service schedules, but they don't appear in the 1950 > ones I have. Here's the line up of daily TRS trains from the January > 1928 GN 234-A. > > TRS > > 1 Meadows-Chicago 4:00 p.m. - 6:30 p.m. 4th day > 3 Harrisburg-East St. Louis 7:30 p.m. - 12:30 a.m. 5th day > 5 Greenville-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 2:00 p.m.- 8:00 p.m. > 7 Waverly-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 4:00 p.m.-10:00 p.m. > 9 Bay View-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3, or PG19) 2:00 a.m.-11:30 a.m. > 11 52d Street (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 3:00 a.m.-1:00 > p.m. > 13 Conway-Crestline 4:30 p.m.-12:01 p.m. > 15 Altoona-Crestline (included mty foreign boxcars)1:30 a.m.-10:00 a.m. > 29 Greenwich (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 6:00 p.m.-7:00 > a.m. > 33 Edge Moor-Harrisburg 8:30 p.m.-8:00 a.m. > > PG19 was a Harrisburg-Pitcairn train > > > Al > Just a thought, but... When I look at these schedules, I'm struck by the wonders of the Per Diem system that existed back then. Basically, one of the few cost items a railroad could actually see (and therefore attempt to control) was per diem, the rental charge paid daily for a foreign car remaining on the railroad at midnight. Sometimes management went ape over this. Many are the tales of local operations that nightly sought to dump foreign cars on somebody else's tracks by 11:59 pm -- it's always seemed the smaller the road, the more bizarre the tale (see for example the recent book on the Interstate Railroad). On the other hand, here we find the mighty Pennsylvania Railroad with some of the same problems. Of course, as a terminating railroad, the PRR will always receive more carloads than it can load back. Most roads found they had 4 eastbounds for every westbound; the Pennsy had to be similar. And for specialized equipment, it's often impossible to find loads for the return trip -- that's part of the problem when you have specialized equipment. In addition, there was always the operating attitude that loads were important, and empties were just a nuisance. In reality, the empty return cycle was vital to maintain traffic. Especially for these tanks, stock, and reefers, the supply of cars was finite. If the cars were not returned promptly, there would be no more loads. And so the Pennsy organized itself to return these special cars, perhaps more swiftly than for regular boxes, gons, and hoppers. Also, this special service may have been aimed toward the special interchange points used for perishable traffic -- in towns like Cincinnati, I've learned that perishables and stock had their own interchange arrangement, different from the masses of "dead freight". You could also see perishables trains coming out of Chicago, departing from differentiated yards/interchange points. Normally the empties were headed back to these same points. Given all this, it's still interesting how these schedules are arranged. Notice that all the western TRS cars for Chicago or for St. Louis funnel into two trains west of Pittsburgh -- TRS1 and TRS3. The quirky thing about this is that (if I'm reading the schedule right), the Chicago train arrives with 11 hours 30 minutes until midnight (the per diem hour). But the St. Louis schedule arrives with 23 hours and 30 minutes until midnight. I don't think this timing is an accident. Both these places were termed "gateways", which in the peculiar language of traffic means bottleneck. Ridiculous as it might seem to an outsider, doing interchange in a big town, through a forest of interlockings and under various dispatchers and authorities, was the toughest job in railroading, and took forever, with wild delays every day. Chicago was bad enough. But I've heard rumors that St. Louis was much worse -- even with the TRRA handling the lion's share of interchange traffic -- and this schedule seems to confirm it. BTW, no facts at all, but I've also heard rumors that two of the PRR's least productive yards were Undercliff in Cincinnati and Rose Lake in St. Louis. Other than age and the fact they were both "westbound" terminals (i.e., most of their traffic was interchanged), I have no idea why. One request -- please, no notes about "I can't believe X took so long". As an operator of 2600 assigned appliance cars in the 70's, my organization was lucky to load each of our cars once every 28 days -- when the weather was OK and there was no grain harvest to siphon off cars. Turnover got worse if you did something really stupid like load a car to New England. Railroading used to be SLOW, guys. It's one of the things that lost so much traffic to trucks. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 00:08:32 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. via Lines West) In a message dated 11/21/02 1:11:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > Subject: TRS-Tank Reefer Stock > From: "Al Buchan" > Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:12:29 -0500 > > Well at least one person wanted to hear more about the PRR westbound TRS > arranged freight service. > > Because of the imbalance of loads eastward and mtys westward in tank, > reefer and stock cars the PRR ran mty trains of these classes of cars > back west using the arranged freight symbol TRS - Tanks-Reefers-Stock. > These ran at least in the 1920s and 1930s. I don't have any 1940s > arranged freight service schedules, but they don't appear in the 1950 > ones I have. Here's the line up of daily TRS trains from the January > 1928 GN 234-A. > > TRS > > 1 Meadows-Chicago 4:00 p.m. - 6:30 p.m. 4th day > 3 Harrisburg-East St. Louis 7:30 p.m. - 12:30 a.m. 5th day > 5 Greenville-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 2:00 p.m.- 8:00 p.m. > 7 Waverly-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 4:00 p.m.-10:00 p.m. > 9 Bay View-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3, or PG19) 2:00 a.m.-11:30 a.m. > 11 52d Street (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 3:00 a.m.-1:00 > p.m. > 13 Conway-Crestline 4:30 p.m.-12:01 p.m. > 15 Altoona-Crestline (included mty foreign boxcars)1:30 a.m.-10:00 a.m. > 29 Greenwich (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 6:00 p.m.-7:00 > a.m. > 33 Edge Moor-Harrisburg 8:30 p.m.-8:00 a.m. > > PG19 was a Harrisburg-Pitcairn train > > > Al > Just a thought, but... When I look at these schedules, I'm struck by the wonders of the Per Diem system that existed back then. Basically, one of the few cost items a railroad could actually see (and therefore attempt to control) was per diem, the rental charge paid daily for a foreign car remaining on the railroad at midnight. Sometimes management went ape over this. Many are the tales of local operations that nightly sought to dump foreign cars on somebody else's tracks by 11:59 pm -- it's always seemed the smaller the road, the more bizarre the tale (see for example the recent book on the Interstate Railroad). On the other hand, here we find the mighty Pennsylvania Railroad with some of the same problems. Of course, as a terminating railroad, the PRR will always receive more carloads than it can load back. Most roads found they had 4 eastbounds for every westbound; the Pennsy had to be similar. And for specialized equipment, it's often impossible to find loads for the return trip -- that's part of the problem when you have specialized equipment. In addition, there was always the operating attitude that loads were important, and empties were just a nuisance. In reality, the empty return cycle was vital to maintain traffic. Especially for these tanks, stock, and reefers, the supply of cars was finite. If the cars were not returned promptly, there would be no more loads. And so the Pennsy organized itself to return these special cars, perhaps more swiftly than for regular boxes, gons, and hoppers. Also, this special service may have been aimed toward the special interchange points used for perishable traffic -- in towns like Cincinnati, I've learned that perishables and stock had their own interchange arrangement, different from the masses of "dead freight". You could also see perishables trains coming out of Chicago, departing from differentiated yards/interchange points. Normally the empties were headed back to these same points. Given all this, it's still interesting how these schedules are arranged. Notice that all the western TRS cars for Chicago or for St. Louis funnel into two trains west of Pittsburgh -- TRS1 and TRS3. The quirky thing about this is that (if I'm reading the schedule right), the Chicago train arrives with 11 hours 30 minutes until midnight (the per diem hour). But the St. Louis schedule arrives with 23 hours and 30 minutes until midnight. I don't think this timing is an accident. Both these places were termed "gateways", which in the peculiar language of traffic means bottleneck. Ridiculous as it might seem to an outsider, doing interchange in a big town, through a forest of interlockings and under various dispatchers and authorities, was the toughest job in railroading, and took forever, with wild delays every day. Chicago was bad enough. But I've heard rumors that St. Louis was much worse -- even with the TRRA handling the lion's share of interchange traffic -- and this schedule seems to confirm it. BTW, no facts at all, but I've also heard rumors that two of the PRR's least productive yards were Undercliff in Cincinnati and Rose Lake in St. Louis. Other than age and the fact they were both "westbound" terminals (i.e., most of their traffic was interchanged), I have no idea why. One request -- please, no notes about "I can't believe X took so long". As an operator of 2600 assigned appliance cars in the 70's, my organization was lucky to load each of our cars once every 28 days -- when the weather was OK and there was no grain harvest to siphon off cars. Turnover got worse if you did something really stupid like load a car to New England. Railroading used to be SLOW, guys. It's one of the things that lost so much traffic to trucks. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 00:06:28 EST Subject: [PRR] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. via Lines West) --part1_84.3628cc0.2b1c4454_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/21/02 1:11:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > Subject: TRS-Tank Reefer Stock > From: "Al Buchan" > Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:12:29 -0500 > > Well at least one person wanted to hear more about the PRR westbound TRS > arranged freight service. > > Because of the imbalance of loads eastward and mtys westward in tank, > reefer and stock cars the PRR ran mty trains of these classes of cars > back west using the arranged freight symbol TRS - Tanks-Reefers-Stock. > These ran at least in the 1920s and 1930s. I don't have any 1940s > arranged freight service schedules, but they don't appear in the 1950 > ones I have. Here's the line up of daily TRS trains from the January > 1928 GN 234-A. > > TRS > > 1 Meadows-Chicago 4:00 p.m. - 6:30 p.m. 4th day > 3 Harrisburg-East St. Louis 7:30 p.m. - 12:30 a.m. 5th day > 5 Greenville-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 2:00 p.m.- 8:00 p.m. > 7 Waverly-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 4:00 p.m.-10:00 p.m. > 9 Bay View-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3, or PG19) 2:00 a.m.-11:30 a.m. > 11 52d Street (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 3:00 a.m.-1:00 > p.m. > 13 Conway-Crestline 4:30 p.m.-12:01 p.m. > 15 Altoona-Crestline (included mty foreign boxcars)1:30 a.m.-10:00 a.m. > 29 Greenwich (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 6:00 p.m.-7:00 > a.m. > 33 Edge Moor-Harrisburg 8:30 p.m.-8:00 a.m. > > PG19 was a Harrisburg-Pitcairn train > > > Al > Just a thought, but... When I look at these schedules, I'm struck by the wonders of the Per Diem system that existed back then. Basically, one of the few cost items a railroad could actually see (and therefore attempt to control) was per diem, the rental charge paid daily for a foreign car remaining on the railroad at midnight. Sometimes management went ape over this. Many are the tales of local operations that nightly sought to dump foreign cars on somebody else's tracks by 11:59 pm -- it's always seemed the smaller the road, the more bizarre the tale (see for example the recent book on the Interstate Railroad). On the other hand, here we find the mighty Pennsylvania Railroad with some of the same problems. Of course, as a terminating railroad, the PRR will always receive more carloads than it can load back. Most roads found they had 4 eastbounds for every westbound; the Pennsy had to be similar. And for specialized equipment, it's often impossible to find loads for the return trip -- that's part of the problem when you have specialized equipment. In addition, there was always the operating attitude that loads were important, and empties were just a nuisance. In reality, the empty return cycle was vital to maintain traffic. Especially for these tanks, stock, and reefers, the supply of cars was finite. If the cars were not returned promptly, there would be no more loads. And so the Pennsy organized itself to return these special cars, perhaps more swiftly than for regular boxes, gons, and hoppers. Also, this special service may have been aimed toward the special interchange points used for perishable traffic -- in towns like Cincinnati, I've learned that perishables and stock had their own interchange arrangement, different from the masses of "dead freight". You could also see perishables trains coming out of Chicago, departing from differentiated yards/interchange points. Normally the empties were headed back to these same points. Given all this, it's still interesting how these schedules are arranged. Notice that all the western TRS cars for Chicago or for St. Louis funnel into two trains west of Pittsburgh -- TRS1 and TRS3. The quirky thing about this is that (if I'm reading the schedule right), the Chicago train arrives with 11 hours 30 minutes until midnight (the per diem hour). But the St. Louis schedule arrives with 23 hours and 30 minutes until midnight. I don't think this timing is an accident. Both these places were termed "gateways", which in the peculiar language of traffic means bottleneck. Ridiculous as it might seem to an outsider, doing interchange in a big town, through a forest of interlockings and under various dispatchers and authorities, was the toughest job in railroading, and took forever, with wild delays every day. Chicago was bad enough. But I've heard rumors that St. Louis was much worse -- even with the TRRA handling the lion's share of interchange traffic -- and this schedule seems to confirm it. BTW, no facts at all, but I've also heard rumors that two of the PRR's least productive yards were Undercliff in Cincinnati and Rose Lake in St. Louis. Other than age and the fact they were both "westbound" terminals (i.e., most of their traffic was interchanged), I have no idea why. One request -- please, no notes about "I can't believe X took so long". As an operator of 2600 assigned appliance cars in the 70's, my organization was lucky to load each of our cars once every 28 days -- when the weather was OK and there was no grain harvest to siphon off cars. Turnover got worse if you did something really stupid like load a car to New England. Railroading used to be SLOW, guys. It's one of the things that lost so much traffic to trucks. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_84.3628cc0.2b1c4454_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/21/02 1:11:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:



Subject: TRS-Tank Reefer Stock
From: "Al Buchan" <abbuchan1@comcast.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:12:29 -0500

Well at least one person wanted to hear more about the PRR westbound TRS
arranged freight service.

Because of the imbalance of loads eastward and mtys westward in tank,
reefer and stock cars the PRR ran mty trains of these classes of cars
back west using the arranged freight symbol TRS - Tanks-Reefers-Stock.
These ran at least in the 1920s and 1930s. I don't have any 1940s
arranged freight service schedules, but they don't appear in the 1950
ones I have. Here's the line up of daily TRS trains from the January
1928 GN 234-A.

TRS

1  Meadows-Chicago 4:00 p.m. - 6:30 p.m. 4th day
3  Harrisburg-East St. Louis 7:30 p.m. - 12:30 a.m. 5th day
5  Greenville-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 2:00 p.m.- 8:00 p.m.
7  Waverly-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 4:00 p.m.-10:00 p.m.
9  Bay View-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3, or PG19) 2:00 a.m.-11:30 a.m.
11 52d Street (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 3:00 a.m.-1:00
p.m.
13 Conway-Crestline 4:30 p.m.-12:01 p.m.
15 Altoona-Crestline (included mty foreign boxcars)1:30 a.m.-10:00 a.m.
29 Greenwich (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 6:00 p.m.-7:00
a.m.
33 Edge Moor-Harrisburg 8:30 p.m.-8:00 a.m.

PG19 was a Harrisburg-Pitcairn train


Al


Just a thought, but...

When I look at these schedules, I'm struck by the wonders of the Per Diem system that existed back then.  Basically, one of the few cost items a railroad could actually see (and therefore attempt to control) was per diem, the rental charge paid daily for a foreign car remaining on the railroad at midnight. 

Sometimes management went ape over this.  Many are the tales of local operations that nightly sought to dump foreign cars on somebody else's tracks by 11:59 pm -- it's always seemed the smaller the road, the more bizarre the tale (see for example the recent book on the Interstate Railroad).

On the other hand, here we find the mighty Pennsylvania Railroad with some of the same problems.  Of course, as a terminating railroad, the PRR will always receive more carloads than it can load back.  Most roads found they had 4 eastbounds for every westbound; the Pennsy had to be similar.  And for specialized equipment, it's often impossible to find loads for the return trip -- that's part of the problem when you have specialized equipment.  In addition, there was always the operating attitude that loads were important, and empties were just a nuisance.

In reality, the empty return cycle was vital to maintain traffic.  Especially for these tanks, stock, and reefers, the supply of cars was finite.  If the cars were not returned promptly, there would be no more loads.  And so the Pennsy organized itself to return these special cars, perhaps more swiftly than for regular boxes, gons, and hoppers.  Also, this special service may have been aimed toward the special interchange points used for perishable traffic -- in towns like Cincinnati, I've learned that perishables and stock had their own interchange arrangement, different from the masses of "dead freight".  You could also see perishables trains coming out of Chicago, departing from differentiated yards/interchange points.  Normally the empties were headed back to these same points.

Given all this, it's still interesting how these schedules are arranged.  Notice that all the western TRS cars for Chicago or for St. Louis funnel into two trains west of Pittsburgh -- TRS1 and TRS3.  The quirky thing about this is that (if I'm reading the schedule right), the Chicago train arrives with 11 hours 30 minutes until midnight (the per diem hour).  But the St. Louis schedule arrives with 23 hours and 30 minutes until midnight.

I don't think this timing is an accident.  Both these places were termed "gateways", which in the peculiar language of traffic means bottleneck.  Ridiculous as it might seem to an outsider, doing interchange in a big town, through a forest of interlockings and under various dispatchers and authorities, was the toughest job in railroading, and took forever, with wild delays every day.

Chicago was bad enough.  But I've heard rumors that St. Louis was much worse -- even with the TRRA handling the lion's share of interchange traffic -- and this schedule seems to confirm it.  BTW, no facts at all, but I've also heard rumors that two of the PRR's least productive yards were Undercliff in Cincinnati and Rose Lake in St. Louis.  Other than age and the fact they were both "westbound" terminals (i.e., most of their traffic was interchanged), I have no idea why.

One request -- please, no notes about "I can't believe X took so long".  As an operator of 2600 assigned appliance cars in the 70's, my organization was lucky to load each of our cars once every 28 days -- when the weather was OK and there was no grain harvest to siphon off cars.  Turnover got worse if you did something really stupid like load a car to New England.  Railroading used to be SLOW, guys.  It's one of the things that lost so much traffic to trucks.

                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_84.3628cc0.2b1c4454_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 00:08:32 EST Subject: [PRR] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. via Lines West) --part1_f2.25a8533c.2b1c44d0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/21/02 1:11:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > Subject: TRS-Tank Reefer Stock > From: "Al Buchan" > Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:12:29 -0500 > > Well at least one person wanted to hear more about the PRR westbound TRS > arranged freight service. > > Because of the imbalance of loads eastward and mtys westward in tank, > reefer and stock cars the PRR ran mty trains of these classes of cars > back west using the arranged freight symbol TRS - Tanks-Reefers-Stock. > These ran at least in the 1920s and 1930s. I don't have any 1940s > arranged freight service schedules, but they don't appear in the 1950 > ones I have. Here's the line up of daily TRS trains from the January > 1928 GN 234-A. > > TRS > > 1 Meadows-Chicago 4:00 p.m. - 6:30 p.m. 4th day > 3 Harrisburg-East St. Louis 7:30 p.m. - 12:30 a.m. 5th day > 5 Greenville-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 2:00 p.m.- 8:00 p.m. > 7 Waverly-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 4:00 p.m.-10:00 p.m. > 9 Bay View-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3, or PG19) 2:00 a.m.-11:30 a.m. > 11 52d Street (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 3:00 a.m.-1:00 > p.m. > 13 Conway-Crestline 4:30 p.m.-12:01 p.m. > 15 Altoona-Crestline (included mty foreign boxcars)1:30 a.m.-10:00 a.m. > 29 Greenwich (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 6:00 p.m.-7:00 > a.m. > 33 Edge Moor-Harrisburg 8:30 p.m.-8:00 a.m. > > PG19 was a Harrisburg-Pitcairn train > > > Al > Just a thought, but... When I look at these schedules, I'm struck by the wonders of the Per Diem system that existed back then. Basically, one of the few cost items a railroad could actually see (and therefore attempt to control) was per diem, the rental charge paid daily for a foreign car remaining on the railroad at midnight. Sometimes management went ape over this. Many are the tales of local operations that nightly sought to dump foreign cars on somebody else's tracks by 11:59 pm -- it's always seemed the smaller the road, the more bizarre the tale (see for example the recent book on the Interstate Railroad). On the other hand, here we find the mighty Pennsylvania Railroad with some of the same problems. Of course, as a terminating railroad, the PRR will always receive more carloads than it can load back. Most roads found they had 4 eastbounds for every westbound; the Pennsy had to be similar. And for specialized equipment, it's often impossible to find loads for the return trip -- that's part of the problem when you have specialized equipment. In addition, there was always the operating attitude that loads were important, and empties were just a nuisance. In reality, the empty return cycle was vital to maintain traffic. Especially for these tanks, stock, and reefers, the supply of cars was finite. If the cars were not returned promptly, there would be no more loads. And so the Pennsy organized itself to return these special cars, perhaps more swiftly than for regular boxes, gons, and hoppers. Also, this special service may have been aimed toward the special interchange points used for perishable traffic -- in towns like Cincinnati, I've learned that perishables and stock had their own interchange arrangement, different from the masses of "dead freight". You could also see perishables trains coming out of Chicago, departing from differentiated yards/interchange points. Normally the empties were headed back to these same points. Given all this, it's still interesting how these schedules are arranged. Notice that all the western TRS cars for Chicago or for St. Louis funnel into two trains west of Pittsburgh -- TRS1 and TRS3. The quirky thing about this is that (if I'm reading the schedule right), the Chicago train arrives with 11 hours 30 minutes until midnight (the per diem hour). But the St. Louis schedule arrives with 23 hours and 30 minutes until midnight. I don't think this timing is an accident. Both these places were termed "gateways", which in the peculiar language of traffic means bottleneck. Ridiculous as it might seem to an outsider, doing interchange in a big town, through a forest of interlockings and under various dispatchers and authorities, was the toughest job in railroading, and took forever, with wild delays every day. Chicago was bad enough. But I've heard rumors that St. Louis was much worse -- even with the TRRA handling the lion's share of interchange traffic -- and this schedule seems to confirm it. BTW, no facts at all, but I've also heard rumors that two of the PRR's least productive yards were Undercliff in Cincinnati and Rose Lake in St. Louis. Other than age and the fact they were both "westbound" terminals (i.e., most of their traffic was interchanged), I have no idea why. One request -- please, no notes about "I can't believe X took so long". As an operator of 2600 assigned appliance cars in the 70's, my organization was lucky to load each of our cars once every 28 days -- when the weather was OK and there was no grain harvest to siphon off cars. Turnover got worse if you did something really stupid like load a car to New England. Railroading used to be SLOW, guys. It's one of the things that lost so much traffic to trucks. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_f2.25a8533c.2b1c44d0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/21/02 1:11:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:



Subject: TRS-Tank Reefer Stock
From: "Al Buchan" <abbuchan1@comcast.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:12:29 -0500

Well at least one person wanted to hear more about the PRR westbound TRS
arranged freight service.

Because of the imbalance of loads eastward and mtys westward in tank,
reefer and stock cars the PRR ran mty trains of these classes of cars
back west using the arranged freight symbol TRS - Tanks-Reefers-Stock.
These ran at least in the 1920s and 1930s. I don't have any 1940s
arranged freight service schedules, but they don't appear in the 1950
ones I have. Here's the line up of daily TRS trains from the January
1928 GN 234-A.

TRS

1  Meadows-Chicago 4:00 p.m. - 6:30 p.m. 4th day
3  Harrisburg-East St. Louis 7:30 p.m. - 12:30 a.m. 5th day
5  Greenville-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 2:00 p.m.- 8:00 p.m.
7  Waverly-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 4:00 p.m.-10:00 p.m.
9  Bay View-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3, or PG19) 2:00 a.m.-11:30 a.m.
11 52d Street (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 3:00 a.m.-1:00
p.m.
13 Conway-Crestline 4:30 p.m.-12:01 p.m.
15 Altoona-Crestline (included mty foreign boxcars)1:30 a.m.-10:00 a.m.
29 Greenwich (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 6:00 p.m.-7:00
a.m.
33 Edge Moor-Harrisburg 8:30 p.m.-8:00 a.m.

PG19 was a Harrisburg-Pitcairn train


Al


Just a thought, but...

When I look at these schedules, I'm struck by the wonders of the Per Diem system that existed back then.  Basically, one of the few cost items a railroad could actually see (and therefore attempt to control) was per diem, the rental charge paid daily for a foreign car remaining on the railroad at midnight. 

Sometimes management went ape over this.  Many are the tales of local operations that nightly sought to dump foreign cars on somebody else's tracks by 11:59 pm -- it's always seemed the smaller the road, the more bizarre the tale (see for example the recent book on the Interstate Railroad).

On the other hand, here we find the mighty Pennsylvania Railroad with some of the same problems.  Of course, as a terminating railroad, the PRR will always receive more carloads than it can load back.  Most roads found they had 4 eastbounds for every westbound; the Pennsy had to be similar.  And for specialized equipment, it's often impossible to find loads for the return trip -- that's part of the problem when you have specialized equipment.  In addition, there was always the operating attitude that loads were important, and empties were just a nuisance.

In reality, the empty return cycle was vital to maintain traffic.  Especially for these tanks, stock, and reefers, the supply of cars was finite.  If the cars were not returned promptly, there would be no more loads.  And so the Pennsy organized itself to return these special cars, perhaps more swiftly than for regular boxes, gons, and hoppers.  Also, this special service may have been aimed toward the special interchange points used for perishable traffic -- in towns like Cincinnati, I've learned that perishables and stock had their own interchange arrangement, different from the masses of "dead freight".  You could also see perishables trains coming out of Chicago, departing from differentiated yards/interchange points.  Normally the empties were headed back to these same points.

Given all this, it's still interesting how these schedules are arranged.  Notice that all the western TRS cars for Chicago or for St. Louis funnel into two trains west of Pittsburgh -- TRS1 and TRS3.  The quirky thing about this is that (if I'm reading the schedule right), the Chicago train arrives with 11 hours 30 minutes until midnight (the per diem hour).  But the St. Louis schedule arrives with 23 hours and 30 minutes until midnight.

I don't think this timing is an accident.  Both these places were termed "gateways", which in the peculiar language of traffic means bottleneck.  Ridiculous as it might seem to an outsider, doing interchange in a big town, through a forest of interlockings and under various dispatchers and authorities, was the toughest job in railroading, and took forever, with wild delays every day.

Chicago was bad enough.  But I've heard rumors that St. Louis was much worse -- even with the TRRA handling the lion's share of interchange traffic -- and this schedule seems to confirm it.  BTW, no facts at all, but I've also heard rumors that two of the PRR's least productive yards were Undercliff in Cincinnati and Rose Lake in St. Louis.  Other than age and the fact they were both "westbound" terminals (i.e., most of their traffic was interchanged), I have no idea why.

One request -- please, no notes about "I can't believe X took so long".  As an operator of 2600 assigned appliance cars in the 70's, my organization was lucky to load each of our cars once every 28 days -- when the weather was OK and there was no grain harvest to siphon off cars.  Turnover got worse if you did something really stupid like load a car to New England.  Railroading used to be SLOW, guys.  It's one of the things that lost so much traffic to trucks.

                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_f2.25a8533c.2b1c44d0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Al Buchan Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 04:14:45 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. via Lines The other interesting thing about the TRS movements is: The tankers were mostly private owned cars and were pretty much commodity specific unless you wanted to clean them out, not worth it for what little liquid back haul there might have been. Back in those pre continental pipeline days most of it was probably e'wd POL products, not all of the sophisticated haz mat chemicals and gases we ship today. The stock cars were pretty much tainted for any loads other than animals and maybe hides (which usually went in tainted boxcars) and the relatively small doors precluded loading much anyway. I did see some NP stock cars back in the '70s being used in MW service hauling ties. I put a photo of it in the MRG article on tie renewal. The reefers, some private owned, but not all, had to be kept pristine for meat and perishable loading so one was somewhat restricted as what could be reloaded. I have seen them back haul newspapers and magazines. Al "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 04:14:45 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. The other interesting thing about the TRS movements is: The tankers were mostly private owned cars and were pretty much commodity specific unless you wanted to clean them out, not worth it for what little liquid back haul there might have been. Back in those pre continental pipeline days most of it was probably e'wd POL products, not all of the sophisticated haz mat chemicals and gases we ship today. The stock cars were pretty much tainted for any loads other than animals and maybe hides (which usually went in tainted boxcars) and the relatively small doors precluded loading much anyway. I did see some NP stock cars back in the '70s being used in MW service hauling ties. I put a photo of it in the MRG article on tie renewal. The reefers, some private owned, but not all, had to be kept pristine for meat and perishable loading so one was somewhat restricted as what could be reloaded. I have seen them back haul newspapers and magazines. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 01:41:35 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. via Lines Hi Rick, All, Just a couple more parts to the puzzle: >From Pitt. Ett #31 4/28/40 TRS-1 daily by? "BO" at 6:00 PM "C" at 8:00 PM "JD" at 8:40 PM "DR" at 9:15 PM "WG" at 11:15 PM "CM" at 12:30 AM TRS-3 daily by? "WG" at 3:00 PM >From Pitt. ETT #12 4/24/49 TRS-7 daily by? Slope at 7:15 PM "C" at 10:00 PM "JD" at 11:00 PM TRS-9 daily by? Slope at 7:45 AM "C" at 9:45 AM "JD" at 10:45 AM So, it seems that as late as 1949 there were still two of them scheduled. I'll be including them in my ops. Thanks for the heads-up on these, Al. Respectfully, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:34:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. via Lines In a message dated 12/1/02 11:21:23 PM, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << When I look at these schedules, I'm struck by the wonders of the Per Diem system that existed back then. Basically, one of the few cost items a railroad could actually see (and therefore attempt to control) was per diem, the rental charge paid daily for a foreign car remaining on the railroad at midnight. >> We used to call this charge "demurrage". Railroads paid a fee for the use of another carriers cars after a certain time. Getting cars back to the owner to avoid this daily charge was the basis for the motto, "Don't Stand Me Still." I also remember a revenue producing activity on the Pennsy where we'd set aside a track in a yard and do repair work to foreign cars, grab irons, etc. The was a billing convention attached to the larger interline agreement that required repairs on defective foreign cars before the moved much further and to guarantee that a carrier would actually repair a car rather than moose it to the next interchange, billable rates were pretty good. This turned into a revenue producing activity. I noted the previous messages on the movement of empty cars. The one that always interested me was the annual migration of empty box cars on the Pennsy. Yards had cooper tracks. We'd hire provisional labor (most would be called the "homeless" today) to clean and recooper cars. The waste from the cars, just dumped on the ground, smelled to high heaven and attracked/fed some of the biggest rats I ever saw. The doors would be blocked open and the cars cleaned on the inside. Then, a piece of plywood like material would be fastened in the doorhole, leaving the top half open. The box cars would be sent west in great numbers to accommodate the annual grain harvests. Grain would be poured through the open portion of the doorhole into the empty box. The cars would then move to harbors (Baltimore?) for shipping and to elevators for local storage. The availability of these fleets of coopered boxes was an annual debate and was actually a newsworthy item that was covered in the business sections of Midwest newspapers. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Randy" Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:09:06 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. via Lines West) According to the 1955 freight schedules WC-1's consist included empty tank cars and empty Packing House Company refrigerator cars from New York and Brooklyn Piers and stations, Jersey City, NYC RR, 68th St. for Enola and beyond. Randy "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Randy" Subject: Re: [PRR] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. via Lines Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:09:06 -0500 According to the 1955 freight schedules WC-1's consist included empty tank cars and empty Packing House Company refrigerator cars from New York and Brooklyn Piers and stations, Jersey City, NYC RR, 68th St. for Enola and beyond. Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:12:39 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article belatedly: > Some of the world's greatest nitpickers with respect to > layouts are those that have no layout of their own. If a layout be presented as fantasy, or 'an interpretation', fine. If a layout be presented as a representation of an existing, or past, real railroad, that really existed, as it existed on a specific date, then, i suggest comments as to accuracy are apropos, regardless of source. Some nits are bigger than others. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Work Equipment Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:24:44 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 15 Nov, "Bill Volkmer" wrote: > At Northumberland, all units made it home every night except the RS-11 > stationed at Weigh Scales. [ ... ] Did Wilkes-Barre have a set of assigned locos? The CT1000e notes "shops" there, but I'm still looking for more info about them, and pictures. Thanks! Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 10:22:14 -0600 Get a life -----Original Message----- From: davep [mailto:davep@quik.com] Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 10:13 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article belatedly: > Some of the world's greatest nitpickers with respect to > layouts are those that have no layout of their own. If a layout be presented as fantasy, or 'an interpretation', fine. If a layout be presented as a representation of an existing, or past, real railroad, that really existed, as it existed on a specific date, then, i suggest comments as to accuracy are apropos, regardless of source. Some nits are bigger than others. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. via Lines Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:29:20 -0500 Marty and list, "Per Diem", or as it is now known "car hire", is TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from "Demurrage". Car hire is paid from one railroad to another for the use of its equiment, while demurrage is charged to CUSTOMERS for detaining cars on sidetrack for longer than the "free time" specified in the Demurrage Tariff. This used to be 24 hours from the first 7:00 AM to load, and 48 hours from the first 7:00 AM to unload, with weekends free if the car still in free time. There was normally no "free time" involved in car hire, except in reciprocal switching, where the car remained in the road haul carrier's account. Car hire is now paid in hourly and mileage increments and is deregulated, resulting in much "horse-trading" among the few Class I's left. The little guys just get screwed. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 10:34 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Some thoughts on returning empty cars (esp. via Lines West) > > In a message dated 12/1/02 11:21:23 PM, RickTipton@aol.com writes: > > << > When I look at these schedules, I'm struck by the wonders of the Per Diem > system that existed back then. Basically, one of the few cost items a > railroad could actually see (and therefore attempt to control) was per diem, > the rental charge paid daily for a foreign car remaining on the railroad at > midnight. > >> > > We used to call this charge "demurrage". Railroads paid a fee for the use of > another carriers cars after a certain time. Getting cars back to the owner to > avoid this daily charge was the basis for the motto, "Don't Stand Me Still." > > I also remember a revenue producing activity on the Pennsy where we'd set > aside a track in a yard and do repair work to foreign cars, grab irons, etc. > The was a billing convention attached to the larger interline agreement that > required repairs on defective foreign cars before the moved much further and > to guarantee that a carrier would actually repair a car rather than moose it > to the next interchange, billable rates were pretty good. This turned into a > revenue producing activity. > > I noted the previous messages on the movement of empty cars. The one that > always interested me was the annual migration of empty box cars on the > Pennsy. Yards had cooper tracks. We'd hire provisional labor (most would be > called the "homeless" today) to clean and recooper cars. The waste from the > cars, just dumped on the ground, smelled to high heaven and attracked/fed > some of the biggest rats I ever saw. The doors would be blocked open and the > cars cleaned on the inside. Then, a piece of plywood like material would be > fastened in the doorhole, leaving the top half open. The box cars would be > sent west in great numbers to accommodate the annual grain harvests. Grain > would be poured through the open portion of the doorhole into the empty box. > The cars would then move to harbors (Baltimore?) for shipping and to > elevators for local storage. > > The availability of these fleets of coopered boxes was an annual debate and > was actually a newsworthy item that was covered in the business sections of > Midwest newspapers. > > Regards, Marty > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:56:38 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, Cadwell, Marvin L wrote: > Get a life The quest for historical accuracy does not preclude a life. Justify your question. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 12:19:44 -0500 From: davep Subject: [PRR] High Tension/William Wister Haines Conversation with a friend reminds me... How about a novel about life on a crew installing RR catenary? It's been written: High Tension by William Wister Haines. The catch is its way out of print, no copies on ebay, nor alibris.com, nor Amazon. So it has to be dug out of used book stores. Haines wrote lots of Hollywood movies, (cf www.imdb.com). High Tension was a four part serial in Saturday Evening Post, 1938, reprinted at the time in book form. One report says that Haines worked as a lineman, dunno... To me, most of the technodetail rings true... best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: howdy@qnet.com Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:24:10 GMT Good morning List, I have been reading the comments on the Dec article since the Dec MR came out. I have come to the conclusion that people have a lot more space for their model railroads than I do. My calculations show that it would take a room 20' X 30' to do "just" the horseshoe curve in HO scale. From what I have been reading, if you don't do it exactly right, you can't do it at all. I wonder how many modelers are going to have to change the name of the curve on their layout. I really wonder if anyone has built a horseshoe curve to scale. I'll stop here before I wonder too far and get lost. I just hope that if there is anyone else out there building a model railroad based on the Pennsy he has not be scared off from sharing it with the rest of us. Howdy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 14:58:21 EST Subject: [PRR] CK to SK1a in 1954 --part1_151.183bc6e0.2b1d155d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/2/02 12:12:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > List, > > I was wondering about the Shadow Keystones and the circle Keystones? Were > these time specific, or put on certain cars? I suspect time specific! > > Mike Schock > Mike, See (my) extended discussion of these phases in last summer's Keystone. The short answer is that CK was replaced by the first of four SK schemes in January of 1954. The last of the four SK schemes was replaced by Plain Keystone in 1961. As we're trying to demonstrate in the Keystone article, the dates of these phases were essentially the same for boxcars, covered hoppers, flats, stock cars, open hoppers, and cabin cars. BTW, if you're a modeler, sometimes too much knowledge can get you into trouble. I have a friend with a beautiful Rio Grande layout set around 1950, and one of his PRR cars is a beautifully weathered X48 PS1, which of course was delivered in early 1954 in SK1a. He's asked me if the car's too new -- and I answered "don't ask". It looks great on the layout -- even if it's an anachronism (don't tell him). Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_151.183bc6e0.2b1d155d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/2/02 12:12:13 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


List,

I was wondering about the Shadow Keystones and the circle Keystones?  Were
these time specific, or put on certain cars?  I suspect time specific! 

Mike Schock


Mike,

See (my) extended discussion of these phases in last summer's Keystone.  The short answer is that CK was replaced by the first of four SK schemes in January of 1954.  The last of the four SK schemes was replaced by Plain Keystone in 1961.

As we're trying to demonstrate in the Keystone article, the dates of these phases were essentially the same for boxcars, covered hoppers, flats, stock cars, open hoppers, and cabin cars.

BTW, if you're a modeler, sometimes too much knowledge can get you into trouble.  I have a friend with a beautiful Rio Grande layout set around 1950, and one of his PRR cars is a beautifully weathered X48 PS1, which of course was delivered in early 1954 in SK1a.  He's asked me if the car's too new -- and I answered "don't ask".
It looks great on the layout -- even if it's an anachronism (don't tell him).

                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_151.183bc6e0.2b1d155d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 16:09:36 -0500 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] EFS17m #7187 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_XEH/wfAsIrpS2wD2B64SPQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hello, List. Yesterday I 'won' on ebay the subject n-scale GP9, and spent a few fruitless hours during the night trying to pin down where the engine's home base was. I started with Keystone Crossings, and hit as many links as I could before my brain fizzled @ 0400. Could someone point me to a database where I could dig the information out? Thanks in advance. Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." --Boundary_(ID_XEH/wfAsIrpS2wD2B64SPQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Hello, List.
 
Yesterday I 'won' on ebay the subject n-scale GP9, and spent a few fruitless hours during the night trying to pin down where the engine's home base was.
 
I started with Keystone Crossings, and hit as many links as I could before my brain fizzled @ 0400.
 
Could someone point me to a database where I could dig the information out?  Thanks in advance.
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail."
 
--Boundary_(ID_XEH/wfAsIrpS2wD2B64SPQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Bowser hoppers reviewed in 1/03 MR Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 21:43:14 +0000 Are the Bowser hoppers reviewed in the January '03 MR just a new paint scheme or are they a new model of the GLa? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] EFS17m #7187 Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 17:22:50 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C29A27.71179C50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 7187 was based at Enola from the time it was built, until almost the end of the Pennsy when the GP-9 fleet was dispersed to outlying points. I believe most were re-assigned to the Columbus area. At the height of the Geep era there were 314 GP-9s assigned to Enola which meant at least 10 MIs each day of the month. Bill V. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Zak Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 4:10 PM To: prr-talk Subject: [PRR] EFS17m #7187 Hello, List. Yesterday I 'won' on ebay the subject n-scale GP9, and spent a few fruitless hours during the night trying to pin down where the engine's home base was. I started with Keystone Crossings, and hit as many links as I could before my brain fizzled @ 0400. Could someone point me to a database where I could dig the information out? Thanks in advance. Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C29A27.71179C50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

7187 was based at Enola from the = time it was built, until almost the end of the Pennsy when the GP-9 fleet was dispersed to outlying points.  I believe most were re-assigned = to the Columbus area.  At the = height of the Geep era there were 314 GP-9s assigned to Enola = which meant at least 10 MIs each day of the = month.

 

Bill = V.

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf = Of Zak
Sent: Monday, December = 02, 2002 4:10 PM
To: prr-talk
Subject: [PRR] EFS17m = #7187

 

Hello, = List.

 

Yesterday I 'won' on ebay = the subject n-scale GP9, and spent a few fruitless hours during the night = trying to pin down where the engine's home base was.

 

I started with Keystone = Crossings, and hit as many links as I could before my brain fizzled @ = 0400.

 

Could someone point me to a = database where I could dig the information out?  Thanks in = advance.

 

Zak=


"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail."
 

------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C29A27.71179C50-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:18:40 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser hoppers reviewed in 1/03 MR >Are the Bowser hoppers reviewed in the January '03 MR just a new paint scheme >or are they a new model of the GLa? Thanks, Norm Bell Norm, The web site indicates that PRR Plain keystone (the scheme reviewed) is on its third series...so I think that MR just got around to reviewing the car. I think I posted my preliminary review to PRR-talk on 10/19/01, more than a YEAR ago . BTW, the MR review was of note in several respects. First, as expected, it utterly fails to note any of the shortcomings of the car (e.g. the poorly done Wine door lock and absent cross braces, both done WAYYY better on the H21a). In addition, about the only critical statement made in the review is technically incorrect! The review states that cars were converted to power handbrakes at some point and the model can be modified to reflect this. However, IRRC, Teichmoeller's book indicates that many (most?) of these cars (except BW) were equipped with staff brakes until scrapping. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 16:27:17 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Bowser N5 paint Hey, did I miss somehting? I was just scrolling through the Bowser site and noticed that 3 of 4 N5c paint schemes for "old style" had FCC cupolas and roofs! Is this now the standard for these kits? If it is...way to go Bowser (finally)! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 21:03:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Kris Kollar built the beautiful L1s --part1_51.280b3ff6.2b1d6adb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/25/2002 12:47:39 AM Central Standard Time, dougkisala@yahoo.com writes: > > Kris Kollar built the beautiful L1s Mike that appeared > in Mainline Modeller in 2000. I don't want to steal > credit for his excellent work. I highly recommend the > articles, which appeared in the January and February > 2000 issues, for anyone interested in detailing an > L1s. > > Photos of Kris's K-4 are on the web at : http://www.rpmrail.org/1Person.htm Al --part1_51.280b3ff6.2b1d6adb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/25/2002 12:47:39 AM Central Standard Time, dougkisala@yahoo.com writes:



Kris Kollar built the beautiful L1s Mike that appeared
in Mainline Modeller in 2000.  I don't want to steal
credit for his excellent work.  I highly recommend the
articles, which appeared in the January and February
2000 issues, for anyone interested in detailing an
L1s. 



Photos of Kris's K-4 are on the web at :
http://www.rpmrail.org/1Person.htm

Al --part1_51.280b3ff6.2b1d6adb_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 18:08:34 -0800 Subject: [PRR] research on the Manhattan Transfer Hi, I was recently in touch with Roger Keyser, with regard to some research on the Manhattan Transfer station. In a message to me, he wrote the following: It seems to me that a few nice photos at M.T. appeared, sometime ago, in one of the magazines........either in The Keystone or the Philadelphia Chapter's High Line. Anyone know anything more specific on the above? I'd like to obtain a copy of this, but without more info I won't be able to do much. Any help or clues appreciated. Thanks - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Frank & Andrea Amato" Subject: [PRR] Trackside Philly content Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 20:38:59 -0600 Hi all, I'm finalizing my Xmas book list, and I'd like to know the extent of PRR coverage in Morning Sun's Trackside Philadelphia. Specifically, any Delaware Avenue Branch coverage? Thanks in advance, Frank ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] High Tension/William Wister Haines Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 22:53:02 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 2 Dec, davep wrote: > Conversation with a friend reminds me... > > How about a novel about life on a crew installing > RR catenary? > > It's been written: > High Tension > by William Wister Haines. > > The catch is its way out of print, no copies on ebay, > nor alibris.com, nor Amazon. So it has to be dug out > of used book stores. Three copies are available through www.abebooks.com, for $35 or $45. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 22:49:31 EST Subject: [PRR] Budd-Michelon Car --part1_91.26e6d73b.2b1d83cb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Was perusing a consignment book at Caboose Hobbies, Illustrated Treasury of Budd Passenger Cars, 1931 - 1981. It showed all of the Budd-Michelon cars including the Pennsy car. An unusual feature was that the Pennsy car had a trailer car which none of the other pictured Michelon cars had. Also, the Pennsy car was the only one to have the headlight mounted above the front windows instead of below it as on the other cars. Both the power car and the trailer had six wheel trucks with no means of passing between cars while in motion. Unfortunately there was only a floor plan drawing of the standard design for this car which does not match the Pennsy car with its trailer car. The book does not go into much detail and is basically a "pictures with captions" book. Evan Leisey --part1_91.26e6d73b.2b1d83cb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit    Was perusing a consignment book at Caboose Hobbies,  Illustrated Treasury of Budd Passenger Cars, 1931 - 1981.  It showed all of the Budd-Michelon cars including the Pennsy car.   An unusual feature was that the Pennsy car had a trailer car which none of the other pictured Michelon cars had.  Also, the Pennsy car was the only one to have the headlight mounted above the front windows instead of below it as on the other cars.  Both the power car and the trailer had six wheel trucks with no means of passing between cars while in motion. 
   Unfortunately there was only a floor plan drawing of the standard design for this car which does not match the Pennsy car with its trailer car.  The book does not go into much detail and is basically a "pictures with captions" book.

Evan Leisey --part1_91.26e6d73b.2b1d83cb_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 22:48:58 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] High Tension/William Wister Haines On Mon, 2 Dec 2002, davep wrote: > Conversation with a friend reminds me... > > How about a novel about life on a crew installing > RR catenary? > > It's been written: > High Tension > by William Wister Haines. > > The catch is its way out of print, no copies on ebay, > nor alibris.com, nor Amazon. So it has to be dug out now that my order is confirmed i will tell you that abebooks.com shows a few copies available;-) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 22:55:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] 46th St and Race St Engine Houses John........ I do belive that is Valley Tower. I'm looking at my interlocking charts from 1959 and "Valley" is remote from Overbrook Tower (6-3-1941). Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 23:20:59 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] The foolishness of grain car supply In a message dated 12/2/02 10:34:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, LAMA assoc writes: > > > I noted the previous messages on the movement of empty cars. The one that > always interested me was the annual migration of empty box cars on the > Pennsy. Yards had cooper tracks. We'd hire provisional labor (most would be > called the "homeless" today) to clean and recooper cars. The waste from the > cars, just dumped on the ground, smelled to high heaven and attracked/fed > some of the biggest rats I ever saw. The doors would be blocked open and > the cars cleaned on the inside. Then, a piece of plywood like material > would be fastened in the doorhole, leaving the top half open. The box cars > would be sent west in great numbers to accommodate the annual grain > harvests. Grain would be poured through the open portion of the doorhole > into the empty box. The cars would then move to harbors (Baltimore?) for > shipping and to elevators for local storage. > > The availability of these fleets of coopered boxes was an annual debate and > was actually a newsworthy item that was covered in the business sections of > Midwest newspapers. > > Regards, Marty > Marty and all, Always a fascinating subject -- we had assigned 40' DF cars without wood linings and would still get them back, two months late, after harvest season, smelling of rotten grain that hung behind the DF bars. Just the thing to load brand new GE appliances in! Incidentally, you mention the annual tea dance called "car availability". The original theory must have been that railroads were so profitable that they could keep extra cars around for use just a few weeks a year. Then mechanized harvesting came in, and as an ag friend of mine put it, "you could harvest out a county in two weeks instead of the six it used to take". This meant the local railroad road got ONE turn on its grain cars during the harvest, instead of the former two or more. Things were just as silly at the other end -- ports or terminal elevators couldn't unload all those cars promptly, and the backed-up cars became a giant warehouse on wheels. The common man had been taught that a railroad was a monopoly (true), and that it could be an endless fount of both taxes and services (false) -- when railroads went broke, it was considered unnatural or bad management, and they were "reorganized" to continue operations. Also, remember that railroading wasn't just a "monopoly", it was a monopoly regulated by the United States Congress through their agent, the Interstate Commerce Commission. That's right, the ICC didn't report to the executive branch -- it was a creation of the legislature. Thus, every elevator operator had two Senators and a Representative on speed-dial -- and if the railroad didn't come up with the cars, then the political blackmail started via the ICC. As long as the Congress, the ICC, and the newspapers could be trusted to raise a stink over car supply ("an obligation of a regulated carrier") every fall, this was a perennial discussion, with lots of heat and absolutely no light. The last thing anybody wanted to say was, nobody wanted all those extra cars except the elevator operators, and they only wanted them for a few weeks a year -- as long as they didn't have to pay for them. At the same time, notice nobody beat up the truckers -- you couldn't haul grain in a dry van, and there were only so many grain trucks out there. There was no assumption of "serving the common good" nor "obscene profits" for the grain truckers. Even before general rail deregulation, the concept of multicar rates for 100-ton grain hoppers started to take off. This had a number of beneficial effects. First, the smallest elevators couldn't ship multicar -- usually, couldn't even top load a grain hopper. Then, the lower rates available for multicar put additional cost pressure on the little elevator, their profits disappeared, and many closed. And finally, not every little branch line could handle 100-ton cars, so the business was further concentrated. Contraction fed on itself -- as branch lines' shippers lost business, the branch lines themselves lost carloadings and became abandonment candidates. In addition, the remaining elevators found that there were only so many grain hoppers out there. Some leased covered hoppers of their own, and some didn't, but all transitioned to more of a year-around shipper, storing the harvest bulge closer to its origin. The cries of the grain shipper was heard no more in the halls of Congress. Once the railroads got the ball rolling on grain hoppers, there was a frenzy of 40 foot boxcar scrappings (and a few lengthenings to 50 feet). Basically, almost the whole fleet of unequipped 40 foot cars disappeared between 1968 and 1978, and the face of American railroading was changed forever. This was one of the major effects that took the Equipment Register from 1.7 million cars to 0.7 million cars -- and made the jumbo covered hopper the most numerous type of car. One more thing -- not all Congressmen were as dumb as you might think. After some years of attending the annual frenzied Congressional investigations into boxcar supply, one congressman stated "the problem of boxcar supply is as substantial as shadows dancing on the wall of a cave". One can read more about this in Ralph Nader's The Interstate Commerce Omission and, I believe, Albro Martin's Enterprise Denied -- good books that dealt with old subjects in surprising new ways. Hope this entertained you... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 23:20:59 EST Subject: [PRR] The foolishness of grain car supply --part1_184.12d67c34.2b1d8b2b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/2/02 10:34:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, LAMA assoc writes: > > > I noted the previous messages on the movement of empty cars. The one that > always interested me was the annual migration of empty box cars on the > Pennsy. Yards had cooper tracks. We'd hire provisional labor (most would be > called the "homeless" today) to clean and recooper cars. The waste from the > cars, just dumped on the ground, smelled to high heaven and attracked/fed > some of the biggest rats I ever saw. The doors would be blocked open and > the cars cleaned on the inside. Then, a piece of plywood like material > would be fastened in the doorhole, leaving the top half open. The box cars > would be sent west in great numbers to accommodate the annual grain > harvests. Grain would be poured through the open portion of the doorhole > into the empty box. The cars would then move to harbors (Baltimore?) for > shipping and to elevators for local storage. > > The availability of these fleets of coopered boxes was an annual debate and > was actually a newsworthy item that was covered in the business sections of > Midwest newspapers. > > Regards, Marty > Marty and all, Always a fascinating subject -- we had assigned 40' DF cars without wood linings and would still get them back, two months late, after harvest season, smelling of rotten grain that hung behind the DF bars. Just the thing to load brand new GE appliances in! Incidentally, you mention the annual tea dance called "car availability". The original theory must have been that railroads were so profitable that they could keep extra cars around for use just a few weeks a year. Then mechanized harvesting came in, and as an ag friend of mine put it, "you could harvest out a county in two weeks instead of the six it used to take". This meant the local railroad road got ONE turn on its grain cars during the harvest, instead of the former two or more. Things were just as silly at the other end -- ports or terminal elevators couldn't unload all those cars promptly, and the backed-up cars became a giant warehouse on wheels. The common man had been taught that a railroad was a monopoly (true), and that it could be an endless fount of both taxes and services (false) -- when railroads went broke, it was considered unnatural or bad management, and they were "reorganized" to continue operations. Also, remember that railroading wasn't just a "monopoly", it was a monopoly regulated by the United States Congress through their agent, the Interstate Commerce Commission. That's right, the ICC didn't report to the executive branch -- it was a creation of the legislature. Thus, every elevator operator had two Senators and a Representative on speed-dial -- and if the railroad didn't come up with the cars, then the political blackmail started via the ICC. As long as the Congress, the ICC, and the newspapers could be trusted to raise a stink over car supply ("an obligation of a regulated carrier") every fall, this was a perennial discussion, with lots of heat and absolutely no light. The last thing anybody wanted to say was, nobody wanted all those extra cars except the elevator operators, and they only wanted them for a few weeks a year -- as long as they didn't have to pay for them. At the same time, notice nobody beat up the truckers -- you couldn't haul grain in a dry van, and there were only so many grain trucks out there. There was no assumption of "serving the common good" nor "obscene profits" for the grain truckers. Even before general rail deregulation, the concept of multicar rates for 100-ton grain hoppers started to take off. This had a number of beneficial effects. First, the smallest elevators couldn't ship multicar -- usually, couldn't even top load a grain hopper. Then, the lower rates available for multicar put additional cost pressure on the little elevator, their profits disappeared, and many closed. And finally, not every little branch line could handle 100-ton cars, so the business was further concentrated. Contraction fed on itself -- as branch lines' shippers lost business, the branch lines themselves lost carloadings and became abandonment candidates. In addition, the remaining elevators found that there were only so many grain hoppers out there. Some leased covered hoppers of their own, and some didn't, but all transitioned to more of a year-around shipper, storing the harvest bulge closer to its origin. The cries of the grain shipper was heard no more in the halls of Congress. Once the railroads got the ball rolling on grain hoppers, there was a frenzy of 40 foot boxcar scrappings (and a few lengthenings to 50 feet). Basically, almost the whole fleet of unequipped 40 foot cars disappeared between 1968 and 1978, and the face of American railroading was changed forever. This was one of the major effects that took the Equipment Register from 1.7 million cars to 0.7 million cars -- and made the jumbo covered hopper the most numerous type of car. One more thing -- not all Congressmen were as dumb as you might think. After some years of attending the annual frenzied Congressional investigations into boxcar supply, one congressman stated "the problem of boxcar supply is as substantial as shadows dancing on the wall of a cave". One can read more about this in Ralph Nader's The Interstate Commerce Omission and, I believe, Albro Martin's Enterprise Denied -- good books that dealt with old subjects in surprising new ways. Hope this entertained you... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_184.12d67c34.2b1d8b2b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/2/02 10:34:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, LAMA assoc writes:



I noted the previous messages on the movement of empty cars. The one that always interested me was the annual migration of empty box cars on the Pennsy. Yards had cooper tracks. We'd hire provisional labor (most would be called the "homeless" today) to clean and recooper cars. The waste from the cars, just dumped on the ground, smelled to high heaven and attracked/fed some of the biggest rats I ever saw. The doors would be blocked open and the cars cleaned on the inside. Then, a piece of plywood like material would be fastened in the doorhole, leaving the top half open. The box cars would be sent west in great numbers to accommodate the annual grain harvests. Grain would be poured through the open portion of the doorhole into the empty box. The cars would then move to harbors (Baltimore?) for shipping and to elevators for local storage.

The availability of these fleets of coopered boxes was an annual debate and was actually a newsworthy item that was covered in the business sections of Midwest newspapers.

Regards,  Marty


Marty and all,

Always a fascinating subject -- we had assigned 40' DF cars without wood linings and would still get them back, two months late, after harvest season, smelling of rotten grain that hung behind the DF bars.  Just the thing to load brand new GE appliances in!

Incidentally, you mention the annual tea dance called "car availability".  The original theory must have been that railroads were so profitable that they could keep extra cars around for use just a few weeks a year.  Then mechanized harvesting came in, and as an ag friend of mine put it, "you could harvest out a county in two weeks instead of the six it used to take".  This meant the local railroad road got ONE turn on its grain cars during the harvest, instead of the former two or more.

Things were just as silly at the other end -- ports or terminal elevators couldn't unload all those cars promptly, and the backed-up cars became a giant warehouse on wheels.

The common man had been taught that a railroad was a monopoly (true), and that it could be an endless fount of both taxes and services (false) -- when railroads went broke, it was considered unnatural or bad management, and they were "reorganized" to continue operations.  Also, remember that railroading wasn't just a "monopoly", it was a monopoly regulated by the United States Congress through their agent, the Interstate Commerce Commission.  That's right, the ICC didn't report to the executive branch -- it was a creation of the legislature.  Thus, every elevator operator had two Senators and a Representative on speed-dial -- and if the railroad didn't come up with the cars, then the political blackmail started via the ICC.

As long as the Congress, the ICC, and the newspapers could be trusted to raise a stink over car supply ("an obligation of a regulated carrier") every fall, this was a perennial discussion, with lots of heat and absolutely no light.  The last thing anybody wanted to say was, nobody wanted all those extra cars except the elevator operators, and they only wanted them for a few weeks a year -- as long as they didn't have to pay for them.

At the same time, notice nobody beat up the truckers -- you couldn't haul grain in a dry van, and there were only so many grain trucks out there.  There was no assumption of "serving the common good" nor "obscene profits" for the grain truckers.

Even before general rail deregulation, the concept of multicar rates for 100-ton grain hoppers started to take off.   This had a number of beneficial effects.  First, the smallest elevators couldn't ship multicar -- usually, couldn't even top load a grain hopper.  Then, the lower rates available for multicar put additional cost pressure on the little elevator, their profits disappeared, and many closed.  And finally, not every little branch line could handle 100-ton cars, so the business was further concentrated.  Contraction fed on itself -- as branch lines' shippers lost business, the branch lines themselves lost carloadings and became abandonme