Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 02:27:41 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Advice Needed Pennsy Friends, I have added a map to the first page of the Northwestern Region Local Arranged Freight Service. What I need some feedback on the speed it takes to open the page. The url is: http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/NORTHWESTERN_REGION.htm Thanks, Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: [PRR] Montour interchanged with the Pennsy Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 04:58:17 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C28163.4B2ED120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 'Montour Memories' to be Recalled November 8th and 9th =20 A group of railfans with a special interest in the former Montour = Railroad will gather in Beaver County, PA the weekend of November 8th = and 9th, 2002, to research and celebrate the memory of their favorite = railroad. =20 'Montour Memories' will include a Friday evening dinner at The Grand = Valley Inn, 452 Constitution Blvd. (PA Rt. 51), Fallston, PA beginning = at 8:00P.M. Following the dinner for which attendees will order off the = menu, a program of Montour Railroad movies and slides will be presented. = In addition, Montour Railroad track charts, maps, photos, and other = memorabilia will be on display. =20 Featured presenter will be Gene P. Schaeffer, Montour Railroad employee = and photographer, who wrote 'The Montour Railroad' (Silver Brook = Junction Publishing Company, Telford, PA, c.1997), a soft-cover history = of the Western Pennsylvania coal hauler. =20 Also showing slides will be Joe Jack, recently-retired from the Norfolk = Southern, and one of Beaver County's foremost railfan photographers. =20 On Saturday, November 9th, Schaeffer will lead a guided tour of the = former Montour Railroad, much of which has been preserved as the Montour = Trail. The tour will include stops at tunnels and other points of = interest which still exist along the railroad's former route. The tour = will begin at 9:00A.M. at the Sports Complex on Neville Island, just = across from Corapolis, PA, where the Montour Railroad once interchanged = with the Pittsburgh & Lake Erie Railroad, now the mainline of CSX. =20 Reservations for the Friday evening dinner are strongly recommended and = may be made by calling The Fallston Flagstop Railfan B&B, 62 Beaver = Street, Fallston, PA at (724) 843-7023. =20 Additional information on the event is available from The Fallston = Flagstop. Their website is: www.forcomm.net/flagstop. =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C28163.4B2ED120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
'Montour Memories' to be Recalled November 8th and=20 9th
 
A group of railfans with a special interest in = the=20 former Montour Railroad will gather in Beaver County, PA the weekend of = November=20 8th and 9th, 2002, to research and celebrate the memory of their = favorite=20 railroad.
 
'Montour Memories' will include a Friday evening = dinner=20 at The Grand Valley Inn, 452 Constitution Blvd. (PA Rt. 51), Fallston, = PA=20 beginning at 8:00P.M.  Following the dinner for which attendees = will order=20 off the menu, a program of Montour Railroad movies and slides will be=20 presented.  In addition, Montour Railroad track charts, maps, = photos, and=20 other memorabilia will be on display.
 
Featured presenter = will be=20 Gene P. Schaeffer, Montour Railroad employee and photographer, who wrote = 'The=20 Montour Railroad' (Silver Brook Junction Publishing Company, Telford, = PA,=20 c.1997), a soft-cover history of the Western Pennsylvania coal=20 hauler.
 
Also showing slides will be Joe Jack, = recently-retired from=20 the Norfolk Southern, and one of Beaver County's foremost railfan=20 photographers.
 
On Saturday, November 9th, Schaeffer will = lead a=20 guided tour of the former Montour Railroad, much of which has been = preserved as=20 the Montour Trail.  The tour will include stops at tunnels and = other points=20 of interest which still exist along the railroad's former route.  = The tour=20 will begin at 9:00A.M. at the Sports Complex on Neville Island, just = across from=20 Corapolis, PA, where the Montour Railroad once interchanged with the = Pittsburgh=20 & Lake Erie Railroad, now the mainline of = CSX.
 
Reservations for=20 the Friday evening dinner are strongly recommended and may be made by = calling=20 The Fallston Flagstop Railfan B&B, 62 Beaver Street, Fallston, PA at = (724)=20 843-7023.
 
Additional information on the event is available = from The=20 Fallston Flagstop.  Their website is:  www.forcomm.net/flagstop. 

 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C28163.4B2ED120-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 07:58:16 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] 3 marker lights on tenders I have seen several photos of PRR steam locomotives that have 3 (!) marker lights on the rear of the tender -- notably E6's in Apex of the Atlantic and on models such as this D16sb: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1783125594&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1 I can grasp having two --so the rear and both sides are covered, but why three??? Jim McDaniel, mystified and blinded by the lights in Delmarva (where 1223 served her last days on the PRR) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jcfmmf@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 10:00:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] 3 marker lights on tenders --part1_9f.2fbf40ca.2af3f0fa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When running backwards outside of yard limits engines were required to show a white light in the direction of travel, hence the middle marker showed white. Didn't give much light I think but satisfied the rule. Jerry F --part1_9f.2fbf40ca.2af3f0fa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When running backwards outside of yard limits engines were required to show a white light in the direction of travel, hence the middle marker showed white. Didn't give much light I think but satisfied the rule.
Jerry F --part1_9f.2fbf40ca.2af3f0fa_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 10:25:41 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Online Businesses in Marysville PA From: Jerry Britton Since I will be modeling the PRR main through Marysville, Pa., I thought I'd better check to see if there were any online businesses there. I knew there was a freight/passenger station, and a yard there in 1954. But it hadn't occurred to me that there might be businesses as well. The CT1000E shows, 1/10 mile east of the station, an entry for a "C. R. Sadler". Does anyone know what this business was and which track it may have been off of? I know that today there is a "gas" company about 1/10 mile east. Perhaps "C.R. Sadler" was a fuel dealer then and it became what is there now. Anyone know? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 07:27:31 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] 3 marker lights on tenders --- "James L. McDaniel" wrote: > I have seen several photos of PRR steam locomotives that have 3 (!) > marker lights on the rear of the tender -- notably E6's in Apex of > the > Atlantic and on models such as this D16sb: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1783125594&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1 > > I can grasp having two --so the rear and both sides are covered, > but why > three??? I think there are two questions here: 1. What is that middle "marker" on the tender? 2. Are the lights on the model correct? As to 1, I agree with the thought that the middle one was white, to satisfy the rule requiring a white light when the engine was moving in reverse at night. Since there is a headlight on the tender in the picture, that moves right into #2. I think the lights shown on the model are not correct. The markers on the pilot beam appear to have white all around. There should be 1 red and 3 yellow on each. The lamps high up nesr the stack should have 2 white and 2 green. There's a 1925 rulebook online somewhere, perhaps at Mark Bej's site, which illustrates these points. Given that there is a headlight on the tender, the "middle marker" is not needed, but one might argue that before the headlight was installed the white lamp was needed, and why not leave it there so that when the headlight is removed some time in future there would be no need to re-install the white "marker". ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 09:49:41 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] 3 marker lights on tenders At 10:00 AM -0500 11/1/02, Jcfmmf@aol.com wrote: >When running backwards outside of yard limits engines were required to >show a white light in the direction of travel, hence the middle marker >showed white. Didn't give much light I think but satisfied the rule. Jerry >F I was going to say the same thing, however, in this case the loco shown also has a "backup light" in the form of a headlight. Is this just a goof on the part of the model builder? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] 3 marker lights on tenders Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 15:53:26 +0000 In PRR builders photos the railroad painted the side rods and marker lights white as I recall for the official photo. There are several examples in Pennsy Power. The person who did the front marker lights may have used one of those photos as a guide. Also don't overlook a wrongly built model either to have both the marker light and a headlight on the tender. Norm Bell > --- "James L. McDaniel" wrote: > > I have seen several photos of PRR steam locomotives that have 3 (!) > > marker lights on the rear of the tender -- notably E6's in Apex of > > the > > Atlantic and on models such as this D16sb: > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1783125594&ssPageName=ADME:B: > SS:US:1 > > > > I can grasp having two --so the rear and both sides are covered, > > but why > > three??? > > I think there are two questions here: > 1. What is that middle "marker" on the tender? > 2. Are the lights on the model correct? > > As to 1, I agree with the thought that the middle one was white, to > satisfy the rule requiring a white light when the engine was moving > in reverse at night. Since there is a headlight on the tender in the > picture, that moves right into #2. > > I think the lights shown on the model are not correct. The markers on > the pilot beam appear to have white all around. There should be 1 red > and 3 yellow on each. The lamps high up nesr the stack should have 2 > white and 2 green. > > There's a 1925 rulebook online somewhere, perhaps at Mark Bej's site, > which illustrates these points. > > Given that there is a headlight on the tender, the "middle marker" is > not needed, but one might argue that before the headlight was > installed the white lamp was needed, and why not leave it there so > that when the headlight is removed some time in future there would be > no need to re-install the white "marker". > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 10:13:17 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] 3 marker lights on tenders Sweet Old Bob sez: >Given that there is a headlight on the tender, the "middle marker" is >not needed, but one might argue that before the headlight was >installed the white lamp was needed, and why not leave it there so >that when the headlight is removed some time in future there would be >no need to re-install the white "marker". I wondered about the era, since the loco is painted for the 1920s-30s. The backup light may have been added at a later date and the model builder decided to put the marker on as well because it was correct for the era? Does anyone have a photo of a tender with both a center "marker" and headlight? A quick look throught the photos on Gary's pages (http://community-2.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA/) didn't show me any... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 11:22:58 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR I-1 3725 We should get the terminology right, guys. Markers (red/yellow) go on the pilot beam. Class lights (white or green) go on the smokebox. They indicate very different things. Steve Bartlett Brian J Carlson wrote: OK Don let me take a stab at answers to your questions/comments. ...... Markers are on the smokebox. ...... Brian ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:30:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Online Businesses in Marysville PA --part1_d3.146bdd12.2af41420_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry: If it was a corporation, you could check with the PA Dept. of State Bureau of Corporations for information. Also, you might want to check the state archives for corporate reports to the State. Rich Orr --part1_d3.146bdd12.2af41420_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry:

If it was a corporation, you could check with the PA Dept. of State Bureau of Corporations for information.  Also, you might want to check the state archives for corporate reports to the State.

Rich Orr --part1_d3.146bdd12.2af41420_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR I-1 3725 & "3 markers lights on tenders" Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 11:02:51 -0600 Hi Y'all! Greetings from Texas, where it's cold and rainy today. Hope y'all have it better. (Good day for being inside playing computer/railroads). And Markers (red/yellow) go on the tender (corners). Right? I tend to agree with those of us that think that modeler made a boo-boo. The 1925 Rule Book shows a white light (page 31 or 37 of 236) for "Engine running backward by night, without cars, or at the front of a train pulling cars." "White light on tender". But shows no "backup light". So the logic says the model should have either the middle marker OR a backup light, not both. Also, the markers should have yellow/amber to the sides and front. I am not mentioning the loco, only the tender. The loco needs some correction too. Anyone please correct me if I am wrong. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Bartlett" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, 01 November, 2002 10:22 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR I-1 3725 > We should get the terminology right, guys. Markers (red/yellow) go on > the pilot beam. Class lights (white or green) go on the smokebox. They > indicate very different things. > > Steve Bartlett > > Brian J Carlson wrote: > OK Don let me take a stab at answers to your questions/comments. > > ...... > > Markers are on the smokebox. ...... > Brian > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 13:04:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] 3 marker lights on tenders Bruce, That is one of my old websites you listed. You might want to try the ones listed in my sig below. Forget the K4 page though, that shouldn't apply because backup "headlights" were not applied to K4s's, normally.. The second one listed may be of help if the proper view is found. I would look but pretty busy right now....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR I-1 3725 & "3 markers lights on tenders" Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 13:33:07 -0500 Eat your hearts out y'all! I have a pair of those marker lights in my garage complete with electric illumination, and the old PRR paint stripped down to the bare brass (dome only), painted gloss black. While I was stripping the P-5s at Enola enginehouse for scrapping (that's how we kept the others running) many years ago, I saved out four of them. Two had cast iron domes and two had brass domes. Sold the two cast iron ones for a king's ransom a few years later, but hung onto the brass ones. They came off 4705. WDV P.S. I have a few of the builder's plates too, but they were cast aluminum. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of PennsyNut Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 12:03 PM To: PRR-Talk; Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR I-1 3725 & "3 markers lights on tenders" Hi Y'all! Greetings from Texas, where it's cold and rainy today. Hope y'all have it better. (Good day for being inside playing computer/railroads). And Markers (red/yellow) go on the tender (corners). Right? I tend to agree with those of us that think that modeler made a boo-boo. The 1925 Rule Book shows a white light (page 31 or 37 of 236) for "Engine running backward by night, without cars, or at the front of a train pulling cars." "White light on tender". But shows no "backup light". So the logic says the model should have either the middle marker OR a backup light, not both. Also, the markers should have yellow/amber to the sides and front. I am not mentioning the loco, only the tender. The loco needs some correction too. Anyone please correct me if I am wrong. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephen Bartlett" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, 01 November, 2002 10:22 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR I-1 3725 > We should get the terminology right, guys. Markers (red/yellow) go on > the pilot beam. Class lights (white or green) go on the smokebox. They > indicate very different things. > > Steve Bartlett > > Brian J Carlson wrote: > OK Don let me take a stab at answers to your questions/comments. > > ...... > > Markers are on the smokebox. ...... > Brian > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR I-1 3725 Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 11:43:56 -0700 Steve, For a I1s/a that was running prior to 1929, you would be correct. After 1929, the markers were removed from freight locomotives (same thing happened to passenger locomotives in 1939) and all freights were classed as extras. In 1940, the markers were moved to the top of the smokeboxes, and changed to the "new" style. Since this photo was taken in 1950, those are markers on the smokebox. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Fri, 01 Nov 2002 11:22:58 -0500 Stephen Bartlett wrote: > We should get the terminology right, guys. Markers > (red/yellow) go on > the pilot beam. Class lights (white or green) go on the > smokebox. They > indicate very different things. > > Steve Bartlett > > Brian J Carlson wrote: > OK Don let me take a stab at answers to your > questions/comments. > > ...... > > Markers are on the smokebox. ...... > Brian > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 10:53:35 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] 3 marker lights on tenders, some photos Pennsy Power: pg 35: H9s. Backup headlight, middle marker (I think). pg 53: L1s. No backup headlight, middle marker. pg 70: I1. Backup headlight, middle marker. pg 71: I1. Backup headlight, middle marker. pg 80: I1. No backup headlight, middle marker. pg 121: G5s. Backup headlight, middle marker, tender pilot. pg 202: 110-P-82 tender. No backup headlight, middle marker. same: 210-F-75A tender. No backup headlight, three markers recessed into end wall. pg 203: M1. No backup headlight, middle marker. Pennsy Power II: pg 36: L1. Backup headlight, no middle marker. pg 43: L1. Backup headlight and middle marker. pg 44: I1. No backup headlight, middle marker. pg 51: I1. Backup headlight and middle marker. pg 52: I1. Backup headlight and middle marker. pg 86: K4. No backup headlight, middle marker. Note: markers are on shelves on back wall of tender. pg 94: M1. No backup headlight, middle marker. Triumph I: pg 105: No backup headlight, no middle marker, kerosene markers, no date given. pg 201: auxiliary tender on ballast cleaner, backup headlight, middle marker. Triumph IV: pg 138: ?? No backup headlight, no middle marker, kerosene markers (ca. 1915) pg 216: view of a roundhouse, rear end of 9 tenders visible. Six have middle marker, three do not, none have backup headlights (ca. 1930) pg 235: ?? backup headlight, maybe middle marker. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 11:03:34 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Marker lamp color --- Bill Volkmer wrote: > Eat your hearts out y'all! I have a pair of those marker lights in > my > garage complete with electric illumination, and the old PRR paint > stripped down to the bare brass (dome only), painted gloss black. But... Shouldn't they be Brunswick^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Dark Locomotive Green (Enamel or Paint, choose one). ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: [PRR] RE: Marker lamp color Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 14:17:55 -0500 Yes they should, and I have given out many many babyfood jars of the stuff over the years to PROOVE to the great unwashed that it was indeed green and not black. However, when I decided to paint mine, the railroad had long since been dissolved to I used gloss black paint. Shame on me for doing so. What a heretic I am! WDV -----Original Message----- From: robert netzlof [mailto:wb3iqe@rocketmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 2:04 PM To: Bill Volkmer; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: Marker lamp color --- Bill Volkmer wrote: > Eat your hearts out y'all! I have a pair of those marker lights in > my > garage complete with electric illumination, and the old PRR paint > stripped down to the bare brass (dome only), painted gloss black. But... Shouldn't they be Brunswick^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Dark Locomotive Green (Enamel or Paint, choose one). ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 15:05:41 -0500 Subject: [PRR] For Sale: "The PRR in 1954" CD-ROM From: Jerry Britton (Pursuant to "For Sale" listings on the 1st and 15th days of the month...) I have a three-year long project that is finally coming to completion...a CD-ROM titled "The Pennsylvania Railroad in 1954". This CD contains dozens of original PRR documents from 1954 that have been meticulously scanned and converted into Acrobat PDF files. There are several thousand pages of documentation in all. The CD will be of ISO-9660 format, which is compatible with Windows, Macintosh, UNIX, and other operating systems. Adobe Acrobat Reader is required to read the files and is a free download. With only a few documents remaining to finish off, I expect to ship this product around December 1. It will DEFINITELY go out in December...finally! Among other documents, the CD includes: * Employee Timetables for ALL 19 division as of 9/26/54 * Numerous Public Timetables * All 11 issues of "The Pennsy", with extensive TrucTrain coverage * Substantial passenger roster coverage, including the Passenger Equipment Roster, the Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment (all roads), etc. * Additional freight service coverage, including excerpts from the Official Railway Equipment Register, the Schedule of Arranged Freight Service, etc. * Other supporting documents, including the Annual Report, etc. The price of this CD is $100. When you consider that a single employee timetable alone typically runs $20-30 at a show, you quickly realize what a value this product can be. You can review the details at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/*ws4d-db-query-QuickShow?DSOP-KCX4 I have invested a lot of funds in securing these documents. I had originally planned to create CD's for other years, but I have found it too cumbersome to manage. I plan to reinvest the proceeds in documents for posting (for free access) to the Keystone Crossings web site. Thank you for your support! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:10:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Marker lamp color Bob, No. Markers were painted Black like most add on appliances, ie: Headlight etc.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:23:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] 3 marker lights on tenders Bruce I found the evidence for your seek of finding 2 Markers, aux light and a Backup Light on a Tender. Page 85 Pennsylvania Steam Years Vol 2. I1sa 4521 Sept 1955 shows the back end of Tender. Seen are 2 Claw Foot Markers, Backup Headlight and with magnifing glass, the single clear lens Aux Light.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 12:43:25 -0800 (PST) From: Subject: [PRR] Yahoo! Auto Response I will be out of the office from Nov. 1 through Nov. 5. -------------------- Original Message: X-Track: 0: 100 X-Rocket-Server: 216.136.130.103 Return-Path: Received: from 205.238.246.32 (HELO dsop.com) (205.238.246.32) by mta407.mail.yahoo.com with SMTP; 01 Nov 2002 12:43:21 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 15:10:50 -0500 Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/01/02 From: "PRR-Talk" To: "PRR-Talk" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Sender: Precedence: Bulk List-Software: LetterRip Pro 3.0.7 by Fog City Software, Inc. List-Subscribe: List-Digest: List-Unsubscribe: PRR-Talk Digest - Friday, November 1, 2002 Advice Needed by "Randy Williamson" Montour interchanged with the Pennsy by "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] 3 marker lights on tenders Well, now I'm really confused. It seems that there are several ?four? variations on the theme. I assume that these lights are only lit when the tender is the last car of a train (i.e., a light engine) going forward or when the first car or a train running backwards. And does the era make any difference as it does with the lights on the front of an engine? ** 2 tender markers on the corners -- red rear and yellow front/sides ** 2 tender markers on the corner and a real backup light ** 3 tender markers -- two on the corners as above and 1 white to the rear in the center but only lit when running backwards ** 3 tender markers PLUS a real backup head light, which seems redundant. Jim McDaniel, in the dark about lights here in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:48:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] 3 marker lights on tenders Jim, I wouldn't call that 3rd center light a "Marker". It really isn't. It is different than the ones on the corners. Maybe that Westside D16sb model has 3 identical? Anyway, that smallish center light is only a one lens clear light and different type housing. I think Auxiliary Light is a more correct term. You are correct on the colors of the corner Markers, (Red to the rear, and Amber Amber Amber) all the way around until later when they dropped down to just red to the rear. In that instance they installed "Blanks" when they removed an amber lens. Same goes for the front pilot Markers. A Side note: I also have a pair of PRR Marker/Class Lights. However, Mine are the versions that came from the Box Cab Electrics. The pair I have are the "Class" Lights that were mounted high on the corner edge of P5a, L6 etc Class Locos. These were removed from Box Cabs in the late 1940's. They differ slightly from the common Claw Foot Markers. When the PRR Installed these on those Electric Locos they took the Claw Foot Base and cut the legs off leaving only the top have of the base and the helmet attached to that . They were then bolted to brackets on the Locos. You can view 1 of my Lights on my 3rd url listed below. About 3/4 the way down the page. Then look at some PRR Electric Photos of the 30's and 40's and you will see them in use.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 18:54:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] 3 marker lights on tenders Jim, List, Here is a quick link to the Class/Marker Light from a PRR Electric Loco: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/mark1.JPG Not quite sure if the lenses that is installed are correct. Got them that way. If these are indeed "Class Lights" they should be Clear Clear Green Green lens. Someday I will spend the money to get them. They are still made by Kopp Glass, Pgh Pa........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 19:54:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Main line at Spruce Creek. Greetings....... Can someone tell me if the mainline between Tunnel interlocking and Spruce interlocking (Spruce Creek Tunnels) was ever 4 tracked? Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 20:09:01 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] S Scale J-1 Hi All, Today was a very good day because I received my new S Scale J-1 from River Raisin Models. http://riverraisinmodels.com All I can say is it is simply AWESOME! http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/S_Scale_J-1.jpg This is a Key and Challenger Models J-1 on steroids. It is a man's locomotive that makes my M-1 look like a mere toy. Jim and Dan raise the quality and detail level with every project. They did not miss anything. It is a masterpiece on wheels in 1/64th. There are 3 different numbers that are factory painted, and unpainted as shown. I am sure they would welcome any inquires you have. They also did the C & O T-1 if you must have a matched set. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 20:33:59 -0500 From: John Ryan Subject: Re: [PRR] For Sale: "The PRR in 1954" CD-ROM Jerry, Does it have any "Make-Up of Trains" John Ryan Jerry Britton wrote: >(Pursuant to "For Sale" listings on the 1st and 15th days of the month...) > >I have a three-year long project that is finally coming to completion...a >CD-ROM titled "The Pennsylvania Railroad in 1954". > >This CD contains dozens of original PRR documents from 1954 that have been >meticulously scanned and converted into Acrobat PDF files. There are several >thousand pages of documentation in all. > >The CD will be of ISO-9660 format, which is compatible with Windows, >Macintosh, UNIX, and other operating systems. Adobe Acrobat Reader is >required to read the files and is a free download. > >With only a few documents remaining to finish off, I expect to ship this >product around December 1. It will DEFINITELY go out in December...finally! > >Among other documents, the CD includes: > > * Employee Timetables for ALL 19 division as of 9/26/54 > > * Numerous Public Timetables > > * All 11 issues of "The Pennsy", with extensive TrucTrain coverage > > * Substantial passenger roster coverage, including the > Passenger Equipment Roster, the Official Register of Passenger Train > Equipment (all roads), etc. > > * Additional freight service coverage, including excerpts from the > Official Railway Equipment Register, the Schedule of Arranged > Freight Service, etc. > > * Other supporting documents, including the Annual Report, etc. > >The price of this CD is $100. When you consider that a single employee >timetable alone typically runs $20-30 at a show, you quickly realize what a >value this product can be. > >You can review the details at > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/*ws4d-db-query-QuickShow?DSOP-KCX4 > >I have invested a lot of funds in securing these documents. I had originally >planned to create CD's for other years, but I have found it too cumbersome >to manage. I plan to reinvest the proceeds in documents for posting (for >free access) to the Keystone Crossings web site. > >Thank you for your support! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 20:52:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Main line at Spruce Creek. Can't answer the question, but speaking of Spruce Creek, how easy is it to hike into the tunnel area, especially from the west? We drove through there last week and it seemed as if the Espey Farm folks had everything posted, more or less blocking off the valley. They even had scary signs pointing to the river, asserting that the State of Pennsylvania had "no authority to declare the river navigable," so boaters were also discouraged from continuing downstream. It was getting late and we didn't want to linger, but have others been in there? And how about from the east (Tunnel interlocking) side? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 21:31:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] For Sale: "The PRR in 1954" CD-ROM From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" on 11/1/02 8:33 PM, John Ryan at RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net wrote: > Does it have any "Make-Up of Trains" > Yes. New York Division Make-Up of Trains from 1954. Shows exact consist, including car names in many cases, of all passenger trains passing through New York's Penn Station. Not just east-west trains, but all of the NY-Washington trains as well. Good question. I should have highlighted it. Thanks! P.S. No credit cards charged until ship time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 21:49:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] S Scale J-1 Bill, The J1 looks very very good! It captures the look nicely. Not familiar with S Scale and River Raisin, who is the builder? I am too deep into HO to switch. Although it does look tempting. I just recently found another HO Key J1a for my roster so I am in it even deeper....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 19:54:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Main line at Spruce Creek. Greetings....... Can someone tell me if the mainline between Tunnel interlocking and Spruce interlocking (Spruce Creek Tunnels) was ever 4 tracked? Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/jd3IAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 22:30:07 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Main line at Spruce Creek. Dave.          It sure was, at one time. That was when there was NO Tunnel Intl. My 1964 Altoona District Interlocking book shows TUNNEL added as a remote Intl 7-31-36. Would this be the time that the Spruce Creek tunnels were single tracked? Seems a bit early for that. Can someone answer that for sure? It was definitely shortly after the 1936 St. Patricks Day flood ravaged the area. Pat McKinney [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 22:19:39 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: RE: [PRR] S Scale J-1 Hi Gary, Thanks for the compliments, but they really should be addressed to River Raisin. I only showed a few broad views. The underside is as equally detailed. The builder is Boo Rim, which seems to be the current gold standard of builders. River Raisin is an S Scale only importer that has been producing quality models for at least 14 years now. I have supported them whenever I could. You could probably find a home for you HO if you tried. I was in HO for 10 years. I switched in 1988 before there were all of these fine PRR models we have now, and I NEVER looked back. Thanks Again, Bill -----Original Message----- From: Gary Mittner [mailto:mittner@webtv.net] Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 9:49 PM To: Bill Lane; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] S Scale J-1 Bill, The J1 looks very very good! It captures the look nicely. Not familiar with S Scale and River Raisin, who is the builder? I am too deep into HO to switch. Although it does look tempting. I just recently found another HO Key J1a for my roster so I am in it even deeper....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.404 / Virus Database: 228 - Release Date: 10/15/02 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 22:30:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Main line at Spruce Creek. --part1_f7.239544b6.2af4a0bf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 It sure was, at one time. That was when there was N= O Tunnel Intl. My=20 1964 Altoona District Interlocking book shows TUNNEL added as a remote Intl=20 7-31-36. Would this be the time that the Spruce Creek tunnels were single=20 tracked? Seems a bit early for that. Can someone answer that for sure? It wa= s=20 definitely shortly after the 1936 St. Patricks Day flood ravaged the area.=20 Pat McKinney --part1_f7.239544b6.2af4a0bf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dave.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 It sure was, at one time. That was when there was N= O Tunnel Intl. My 1964 Altoona District Interlocking book shows TUNNEL added= as a remote Intl 7-31-36. Would this be the time that the Spruce Creek tunn= els were single tracked? Seems a bit early for that. Can someone answer that= for sure? It was definitely shortly after the 1936 St. Patricks Day flood r= avaged the area.

Pat McKinney
 --part1_f7.239544b6.2af4a0bf_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 22:52:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Main line at Spruce Creek. Hello Pat & List........ In front of me,I have the 1951 "Spruce & Tunnel" interlocking chart. E/B track 1 goes through the "old tunnel" while W/B tracks 2 and 3 go through the "new tunnel". No number 4 track.Don't know the history of the Spruce Creek Tunnels but by looking at the charts, it appears that it was 4 tracks through the area at one time. Looks like west of Spruce tower ( to Forge interlocking ), the mainline was always 3 tracked. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 23:09:12 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Main line at Spruce Creek. Re the tunnels, Mike Bezilla's article in the January 1992 Railpace (which we were using as a guide) says "The northern bore carried two tracks until Conrail double-tracked the Middle Division in the 1980s." John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 23:09:46 EST Subject: [PRR] 1945 C.T.1000 C & 1945 C.T.1000 E for sale --part1_1c0.f91575.2af4aa0a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List. (Pursuant to "For Sale" listings on the 1st and 15th days of the month...) I have for sale a 1945 C.T. 1000 C and a 1945 C.T. 1000 E for sale 1945 C.T. 1000 C excellent cover front and back,solid binding with slight wear at bottom corner edges at the fold(expected), excellent clean pages. 1945 C.T. 1000 E excellent cover front and back with slight wear on right upper and lower corners of front cover,solid binding, 639 excellent clean pages except for pages 129 to 160 have a notch cut out with pages 149 to 160 also having top corner cut off. These are Phila Div. pages so my guess is this was used by a Phila Div. person. Please email off list for price and other questions. If there is that C.T.1000 W out there,I would like to trade the C.T.1000 C for a C.T.1000 W. Pat McKinney PKMac101@aol.com --part1_1c0.f91575.2af4aa0a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List.
     (Pursuant to "For Sale" listings on the 1st and 15th days of the month...)
I have for sale a 1945 C.T. 1000 C and a 1945 C.T. 1000 E for sale

1945 C.T. 1000 C  excellent cover front and back,solid binding with slight wear at       
                            bottom corner edges at the fold(expected), excellent clean
                            pages.
1945 C.T. 1000 E  excellent cover front and back with slight wear on right upper and
                            lower corners of front cover,solid binding, 639 excellent clean
                            pages except for pages 129 to 160 have a notch cut out with
                            pages 149 to 160 also having top corner cut off. These are Phila
                            Div. pages so my guess is this was used by a Phila Div. person.

   Please email off list for price and other questions.
   If there is that C.T.1000 W out there,I would like to trade the C.T.1000 C for a
   C.T.1000 W.

Pat McKinney
PKMac101@aol.com --part1_1c0.f91575.2af4aa0a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 21:22:35 -0800 From: Subject: [PRR] BP20's Folks, I am trying to track down the manufacturer of BP20 (A & B units). I once had their web site, but it appears that I lost it and my local hobby shop has informed me that they are no longer solvant. If he is wrong and they are still around, would someone kindly supply me with their website? Thanks in advance, Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Hal6963@aol.com Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 06:03:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Main line at Spruce Creek. --part1_1a0.b261a8e.2af50b1e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/1/2002 7:56:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: > Can someone tell me if the mainline between Tunnel interlocking > and Spruce interlocking (Spruce Creek Tunnels) was ever 4 tracked? > Thanks in advance. > Yes, Both tunnels were originally built with 2 tracks each. I have a post card circa 1910 and various other photos showing 4 tracks. Harold Modeling Spruce Creek in 1915 --part1_1a0.b261a8e.2af50b1e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/1/2002 7:56:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes:

Can someone tell me if the mainline between Tunnel interlocking
and Spruce interlocking (Spruce Creek Tunnels) was ever 4 tracked?
Thanks in advance.


Yes, Both tunnels were originally built with 2 tracks each.

I have a post card circa 1910 and various other photos showing 4 tracks.

Harold
Modeling Spruce Creek in 1915 --part1_1a0.b261a8e.2af50b1e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 22:52:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Main line at Spruce Creek. Hello Pat & List........ In front of me,I have the 1951 "Spruce & Tunnel" interlocking chart. E/B track 1 goes through the "old tunnel" while W/B tracks 2 and 3 go through the "new tunnel". No number 4 track.Don't know the history of the Spruce Creek Tunnels but by looking at the charts, it appears that it was 4 tracks through the area at one time. Looks like west of Spruce tower ( to Forge interlocking ), the mainline was always 3 tracked. Dave ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/jd3IAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 07:40:30 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] BP20's From: Jerry Britton On 11/2/02 12:22 AM, "cabincar01@earthlink.net" wrote: > I am trying to track down the manufacturer of BP20 (A & B units). I once had > their web site, but it appears that I lost it and my local hobby shop has > informed me that they are no longer solvant. If he is wrong and they are still > around, would someone kindly supply me with their website? Miracle Castings was the company that made the resin shells. I declared them "out of business" three years ago and was taken to task for it. Practically nothing has been heard from them or of them since. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2002 05:56:00 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] CT 1000 questions --- PKMac101@aol.com wrote: [...] > If there is that C.T.1000 W out there,I would like to trade the > C.T.1000 C for a C.T.1000 W. And that reminds me of some questions about CT1000's. Has anybody seen a CT1000W from 1945? Or, did the RR print just the "big book" (CT1000) and the E and C "little books"? Turning to 1923: At the time, the Lines West were divided into Northwestern and Southwestern Regions/Systems. So what CT1000's were there covering Lines West? CT1000W? Or maybe CT1000N and CT1000S? Has anyone seen anything other than the CT1000, CT1000E and CT1000C? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 08:30:13 -0800 From: Subject: [PRR] BP20's, success maybe Folks, Thanks for all the input, but I have to believe that Miracle Castings may be kaput. The ray of light in this case is that Dayna of Trainstuff is checking his "old" inventory for me. With my fingers crossed, Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2002 16:30:45 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] CT 1000 questions From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" on 11/2/02 8:56 AM, robert netzlof at wb3iqe@rocketmail.com wrote: > And that reminds me of some questions about CT1000's. > > Has anybody seen a CT1000W from 1945? Or, did the RR print just the > "big book" (CT1000) and the E and C "little books"? There was a CT1000W; I've seen one. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 00:37:25 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] PRR Diesel Pictorial Volume 7 and Pennsy Diesels 1924-1968 Hello list, My copies of PRR Diesel Pictorial Volume 7 and Pennsy Diesels 1924-1968 arrived yesterday. I really wish PRR Diesel Pictorial Volume 7: EMD E Units and Alco PAs had appeared about 5 years ago! On the bright side, I am repainting one of my grandfather's EP22s (E-8) and will be repainting my EP20 (E-7) shortly, so I'll be able to make good use of the material. For the E units, there are lots of nice photos, both as built and after modifications to the EP20s to improve cooling. There are also shots of the engines as renumbered for the impending PC merger and a roster with build dates, order numbers, renumberings to take the fleets (E units) through to the end of the PRR. Needless to say, the PAs didn't make it past 1962. The Hundman Publishing book Pennsy Diesels is something I've wanted for quite some time: a short history, with the fate of every unit up to and including the present day. For instance, I didn't know that some ex-PRR SD-45s still roam UP rails (albeit rebuilt to SD-40-2 standards). At first glance, the history may seem duplicative of Hirsimaki's Black Gold-Black Diamonds series. The history portion of the book (why PRR procured diesels, etc) is much shorter, and where the book does delve into history, it deals mainly with individual classes, to include assignments at various points in time. Photo quality in both books is quite good; black and white shows the details nicely for modellers. I would cheerfully recommend either both to serious or casual PRR fans. Doug __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 10:12:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Focal Orange? YEP! List, Last week I made mention of the restoration of an N5c. Work has been going on since mid-summer. Last week while at the worksite some torching to remove railings etc was being done. We noticed that the Conrail Blue paint was peeling off some angle when it was getting heated. We peeled off several blistering patches. On the under side of the blackish/torched CR Blue paint chip/peeling was the Focal Orange the PRR had applied in 1965. Between those 2 colors was PC Green Paint. Anyway, the Focal Orange color still retains it's original bright color from when it was applied 37 years ago. Protected from the elements by the other 2 coats of paint. Here is a photo of backside of this chip. Sorry, a little blury but you get the idea. http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000630.jpg Now Pete, you asked last week what was under the the Focal Orange. We looked yesterday. It appears it is the remnants of FCC color. It did not peel off with the other layers. It is permanantly attached to the metal. I first thought the color was actually rust. It was not. The color is a deep rich brown with just a tad or reddish to it. Must be because of the artificial pigments used in later years which had a darker shade. That's all to report on our findings....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh Railfanning Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 12:03:19 -0500 A friend and I will be railfanning Pittsburgh PA Wed though Sunday this week. What are the places to AVOID from the standpoint of either safety or security problems? Any problems in that area with people being hassled by security or law enforcement people? We plan to strictly stick to public property and use long lenses as needed. Suggestions on places to see would also be appreciated. Especially where/how to get a bird's eye view of the Ohio Connecting Bridge. We do have the Pentrex "Pittsburgh Mainline" video and other Pittsburgh railroad videos. Thanks! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 12:09:05 EST Subject: [PRR] Rail Weight --part1_12e.1a5e8d55.2af6b231_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I model 1950 and am doing the PR's mainline interchange with the Strasburg RR in Paradise, Pa.. Does anyone know what the Pennsy's mainline rail was at that time. I am assuming 110 lb.. Also, the PRR Schuylkill Division's interchange with the Reading Co. at Birdsboro will be modeled. PRR's rail weight on this branch was ? lbs. in 1950? Assuming 80 or 90 lb. here as the traffic was not that heavy or fast at this point. Many thanks, Evan Leisey --part1_12e.1a5e8d55.2af6b231_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit    I model 1950 and am doing the PR's mainline interchange with the Strasburg RR in Paradise, Pa..  Does anyone know what the Pennsy's mainline rail was at that time.  I am assuming 110 lb..

   Also,  the PRR Schuylkill Division's interchange with the Reading Co. at Birdsboro will be modeled.  PRR's rail weight on this branch was  ?  lbs. in 1950?  Assuming 80 or 90 lb. here as the traffic was not that heavy or fast at this point.

Many thanks,

Evan Leisey --part1_12e.1a5e8d55.2af6b231_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 12:20:00 EST Subject: [PRR] Similar List for BNSF? I've told a colleague about finding this list and how, even though I am not now a modeler, it has sharply revived my interest in an old employer, the Pennsy. He, it turns out, worked for a predecessor of what is, today, the Burlington Northern Santa Fe railroad. Is there a list for BNSF that is comparable to this list? If so, can you provide the address? Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 14:01:14 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Similar List for BNSF? --part1_43.14585f8e.2af6cc7a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is one on yahoogroups.com: BNSF Group is fairly active, but not so much as the several Santa Fe groups. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_43.14585f8e.2af6cc7a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is one on yahoogroups.com: BNSF

Group is fairly active, but not so much as the several Santa Fe groups.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_43.14585f8e.2af6cc7a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Rail Weight Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 14:10:35 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C28342.C74281E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evan: By 1950, the rails that made up the mainline tracks on the PRR typically = would be one of the following: 131 RE 133 PS/RE 140 PS/RE In HO scale, Code 83 rail would be a very good fit for these rail section= s. I believe that is what you should use for the mainline at the Stratsbu= rg interchange. For a branchline such as the Schuylkill, I would assume that the rail wou= ld mostly be 100 PS with some 130 PS. Code 70 is a even so slightly large= r in overall dimensions for 100 PS. That is what I use for 100 PS. 130 PS= is larger in height and width still, I think that Code 75 rail could app= roximate this rail section. On my Fort Wayne Division layout, I use Code 83 for 131/133/140 rail sect= ions on my mainline while Code 70 is used for 100 and 130 rail sections. I hope that this helps you out! Ted Andrews (a "rail" fan in more ways than one!!) =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 12:26 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Rail Weight =20 I model 1950 and am doing the PR's mainline interchange with the Stras= burg RR in Paradise, Pa.. Does anyone know what the Pennsy's mainline ra= il was at that time. I am assuming 110 lb.. Also, the PRR Schuylkill Division's interchange with the Reading Co. = at Birdsboro will be modeled. PRR's rail weight on this branch was ? l= bs. in 1950? Assuming 80 or 90 lb. here as the traffic was not that heav= y or fast at this point. Many thanks, Evan Leisey =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C28342.C74281E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Evan:
 
By 1950, the rails that made up the mainline tr= acks on the PRR typically would be one of the following:
=
 
131 RE
133 PS/RE
140 PS/RE
 
In HO scale, Code 83 rail would be a ver= y good fit for these rail sections. I believe that is what you = should use for the mainline at the Stratsburg interchange.
 
For a branchline such as the Schuylkill, I would=  assume that the rail would mostly be 100 PS with some 130= PS. Code 70 is a even so slightly larger in overall dimensions= for 100 PS. That is what I use for 100 PS. 130 PS is larger in heig= ht and width still, I think that Code 75 rail could approximate this rail= section.
 
On my Fort Wayne Division layout, = I use Code 83 for 131/133/140 rail sections on my mainline whil= e Code 70 is used for 100 and 130 rail sections.
 
=
I hope that this helps you out!
 
Te= d Andrews
(a "rail" fan in more ways than one!!)
&n= bsp;
----- Original Message -----
From: RDG212= 4@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, Nove= mber 03, 2002 12:26 PM
To: P= RR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [P= RR] Rail Weight
 
   I model= 1950 and am doing the PR's mainline interchange with the Strasburg RR in= Paradise, Pa..  Does anyone know what the Pennsy's mainline rail wa= s at that time.  I am assuming 110 lb..

   Also,&nb= sp; the PRR Schuylkill Division's interchange with the Reading Co. at Bir= dsboro will be modeled.  PRR's rail weight on this branch was <= U> ?  lbs. in 1950?  Assuming 80 or 90 lb. here as the traf= fic was not that heavy or fast at this point.

Many thanks,

= Evan Leisey
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C28342.C74281E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Focal Orange? YEP! Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 13:03:51 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C28339.74F9D5E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Gary! Thanks for that picture of "Focal Orange". Can you get a picture of = that FCC? That's more important to us modeling prior to 1950. > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000630.jpg >=20 > Now Pete, you asked last week what was under the the Focal Orange. We = looked yesterday. It appears it is the remnants of FCC color. It did not = peel off with the other layers. It is permanantly attached to the metal. = I first thought the color was actually rust. It was not. The color is a = deep rich brown with just a tad or reddish to it. Must be because of the = artificial pigments used in later years which had a darker shade. > Reason being that if the focal orange was almost "pristine", could it = not be so that the FCC is also "pristine". I suppose if not, then a = picture of it would not be feasible. The great thing about that focal = orange is that I can simply "save" it on my hard drive for future = reference. I have some color chips that I did scan and save, but the = FCC I have is not that "pristine", and as you well know, the FCC was not = the same on every car. Especially since you mention "deep rich brown = with just a tad or reddish to it". Thanks again. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C28339.74F9D5E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Gary!
 
Thanks for that picture of = "Focal=20 Orange".  Can you get a picture of that FCC?  That's more = important to=20 us modeling prior to 1950.
 
> http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000630.jpg >=20
> Now Pete, you asked last week what was under the  the = Focal=20 Orange. We looked yesterday. It appears it is the remnants of FCC color. = It did=20 not peel off with the other layers. It is permanantly attached to the=20 metal.  I first thought the color was actually rust. It was not. = The color=20 is a deep rich brown with just a tad or reddish to it. Must be because = of the=20 artificial pigments used in later years which had a darker shade.=20 >
 
Reason=20 being that if the focal orange was almost "pristine", could it not be so = that=20 the FCC is also "pristine".  I suppose if not, then a picture = of it=20 would not be feasible.  The great thing about that focal orange is = that I=20 can simply "save" it on my hard drive for future reference.  I have = some=20 color chips that I did scan and save, but the FCC I have is not that = "pristine",=20 and as you well know, the FCC was not the same on every car.  = Especially=20 since you mention "deep rich brown with just a tad or reddish to=20 it".

Thanks = again.
 
Morgan = Bilbo
Ferroequinologist
PRRTHS=20 #1204 and SPF
 ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C28339.74F9D5E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Rail Weight Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 14:44:22 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C28347.7FB0B900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evan, I believe the most common rail weight on the PRR main line was 140 PS, = or 140 lb. rail, with 152 PS used on curves. The Schuylkill Division may = have been 110 lbs though. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RDG2124@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 12:09 PM Subject: [PRR] Rail Weight I model 1950 and am doing the PR's mainline interchange with the = Strasburg RR in Paradise, Pa.. Does anyone know what the Pennsy's = mainline rail was at that time. I am assuming 110 lb.. Also, the PRR Schuylkill Division's interchange with the Reading = Co. at Birdsboro will be modeled. PRR's rail weight on this branch was = ? lbs. in 1950? Assuming 80 or 90 lb. here as the traffic was not that = heavy or fast at this point. Many thanks, Evan Leisey=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C28347.7FB0B900 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Evan,
 
I believe the most common rail weight on the PRR = main line was=20 140 PS, or 140 lb. rail, with 152 PS used on curves. The Schuylkill = Division may=20 have been 110 lbs though.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com=20
Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 = 12:09=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Rail = Weight

   I model 1950 and am doing the PR's = mainline=20 interchange with the Strasburg RR in Paradise, Pa..  Does anyone = know=20 what the Pennsy's mainline rail was at that time.  I am assuming = 110=20 lb..

   Also,  the PRR Schuylkill Division's = interchange=20 with the Reading Co. at Birdsboro will be modeled.  PRR's rail = weight on=20 this branch was  ?  lbs. in 1950?  Assuming 80 = or 90 lb.=20 here as the traffic was not that heavy or fast at this = point.

Many=20 thanks,

Evan Leisey ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C28347.7FB0B900-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 14:54:36 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Diesel Pictorial Volume 7 and Pennsy Diesels Doug, et al., Received my copy of "Diesels 1924-1968" just before going on vacation three weeks ago. I took it with me and read it during the two weeks I was gone. Overall it appears to be a nice presentation, however, I found a few discrepancies in at least three or four of the roster tallies at the end of the book. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 14:55:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Focal Orange? YEP! Morgan, We will be back on site next week and I will have camera in hand. I will se what I can get on the FCC color. Am I correct in that the shade of FCC changed from redish oxide brown to a more brown color. This was because of the change to articfical pigments then being used. Carl Izzo might step in and confirm this? The particular N5c we are restoring is x-PRR 477974. The only photo evidence we can come up with so far as to what PRR color/lettering this N5c wore was the "as delivered" no Keystone scheme of 1942. The photos we have are dated as late as 1957 still wering the as delivered lettering. We are not sure if this Cabin ever recieved the Shadow or Plain Keystone lettering prior to its getting the Focal Oange in 1965. Now, if that remnant of FCC is actually just that, it may be evidence of one of the later schemes due to its darker color than the 1940's era stuff. We just don't know. We need to come up with a photo of the 477974 after the 1957 era to see if this can back this theory up. The 477974 was assigned up in the north central reigion during the mid late 50's so it may have been skipped a later paint job and went straight to Focal Orange from the original 1942 paint job. Stay tuned again next week to see if I get a good shot of this FCC color...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] Rail Weight Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 22:18:26 +0000 >From what I have seen 152 (or sometimes 155) lb PS was used on all of the PRR's major main lines. There is still some left today on the Amtrak Harrisburg line, notably between OVERBROOK and PAOLI. You can compare it to contempoary 140 lb welded rail on ajdacent tracks. The 152 is nearly an inch taller and uses massive 8 bolt fishplates. The PRR used 130/133 on its secondard main lines (like to Atlantic City) with more typical 6 bolt fishplates. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 17:54:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Rail Weight In a message dated 11/3/02 4:23:47 PM Central Standard Time, evillmike@hotmail.com writes: << From what I have seen 152 (or sometimes 155) lb PS was used on all of the PRR's major main lines. >> I'm not sure that is even true East of Pittsburgh, but bow to the Lines East guys to confirm or deny. However re Lines West, In my files, I have a post from Richard Wallis of Lines West list. Ft. Wayne and St. Louis lines had some 140 lb. Balance of most other main lines West of Pittsburgh were 130-131 lb. There may have been an isolated stretch of 152 lb rail somewhere West of Pittsburgh but I don't know offhand where. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 20:47:22 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Rail Weight - Answered --part1_178.1123d1c2.2af72baa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many thanks for the volumes of information on the rail weight question. I did not realize that anything over 140 lb. existed in 1950. Evan Leisey --part1_178.1123d1c2.2af72baa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Many thanks for the volumes of information on the rail weight question.  I did not realize that anything over 140 lb. existed in 1950.

Evan Leisey --part1_178.1123d1c2.2af72baa_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RichofScot@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 21:19:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Main line at Spruce Creek. The Sept. 28, 1947 Middle Division ETT has three tracks from Tunnel to Forge. Track 1 Eastward Passenger, track 2 Westward freight, track 3 westward passenger. Also GO No. 1005 dated November 30, 1947 annulled special instruction 1502A as construction work in the westward tunnel between Spruce and Tunnel is completed. Hope this helps some. Rich Orr [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 21:57:23 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Rail Weight This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_ev3/QToCjRWAxQ/O6uTnKw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I went back to an article I had written about rail in the July 1995 issue of MRG. It was from a 13-part series and sez- "In the mid-'50s PRR had three standard section: 1) 155# was used in heavy-tonnage, high-speed trackage east of Altoona, between New York and Washington and between Canton and Mansfield, OH; 2) 140# was used on high-speed tracks that carried moderate tonnage; and 3) 133# was reserved for the light tonnage, mostly west of Columbus and Crestline. By the mid-'60s the general PRR standard was 140# AREA for mainline main-track and 115# for branchline main-track." Al --Boundary_(ID_ev3/QToCjRWAxQ/O6uTnKw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
I went back to an article I had written about rail in the July 1995 issue of MRG. It was from a 13-part series and sez-
 
"In the mid-'50s PRR had three standard section: 1) 155# was used in heavy-tonnage, high-speed trackage east of Altoona, between New York and Washington and between Canton and Mansfield, OH; 2) 140# was used on high-speed tracks that carried moderate tonnage; and 3) 133# was reserved for the light tonnage, mostly west of Columbus and Crestline. By the mid-'60s the general PRR standard was 140# AREA for mainline main-track and 115# for branchline main-track."
 
Al
--Boundary_(ID_ev3/QToCjRWAxQ/O6uTnKw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 22:59:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] Rail Weight List....... I have a 1945 Pittsburgh Div. Track Chart that includes all the rail weight of all main tracks between Slope and Penn. Staion ,Pittsburgh. I was suprised to see that most of the rail on the mainline was 131 lb. rail. In some places, 152 pound rail has been installed. Track 3 between Slope and GY has 152lb. Also 3 and 4 at SF interlocking. Between Cresson and Portage, track 3 has 152 lb rail. Seems like PRR must have been replacing a lot of the rail on the mainline at this time. It's full of mis-match rail sizes. Track 1 at the east end of Pitcairn Yard has a small section of 125 lb rail. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton" Subject: RE: [PRR] Focal Orange? YEP! Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 08:45:15 -0000 ~ Am I correct in that the shade of FCC changed from redish oxide ~brown to a more brown color. That's always's been my understanding, but if I'm right then old FCC is *really* bright not just "reddish brown" . My understanding is that the pigment was Fe2O3 or iron sesquioxide(also naturally occurring as red ochre or haematite). I don't know for certain that the PRR would have used manufactured pigments rather than natural, but these were already very common in the early 1900s - the use of the iron sesquioxide name rather than simply haematite perhaps suggests man-made rather than natural pigments. Naturally occurring forms can have significant variations in colour, but the purer manufactured pigment used in artist's colours is a very definite orangey-red. It's sold as Mars Red, available from any good artists supply store. When slightly begrimed it's a very close match to Modelflex Light Tuscan Oxide Red. The effect is very close to what you see in contemporary paintings - that of course might be due to Messrs Teller and company having used Mars Red as the basic colour in their paintings rather than anything significant. Aidrian --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 31/10/2002 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 07:44:11 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] MArs Red YEP! A quick google search turned up the following site which includes a color chip which looks FCC to my eyes: http://www.rfpaints.com/6-ColorCharts/MarsRed.htm Mars Red synthesized iron oxide, calcined The most intensely red of the mars colors. In a high key painting it appears almost brown. Surrounded by low key colors it can be strikingly saturated but never electric. Makes salmon pink tints [editorial comment: when it's mixed with a white pigment]. Similar to the natural ochres: English Red or Light Red. Mars colors are synthetically made iron oxides. They are the counterpart to natural ochres. The practice of manufacturing them goes back to the 17th century. The term "mars" refers to the Roman deity, who was the god of iron as well as war. The advantage of the synthetic pigment is that it is uniformly cleaner, brighter, and denser than the ochres. They have incredible tinting strength and opacity. Jim McDaniel, father of and son-in-law of artists but himself only able to paint houses, here in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 10:29:15 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports From: Jerry Britton BLI's web site shows the J1e Hudson as having shipped. Good news; we'll have some worthwhile opinions soon. On a sour note, I (with the support of others) submitted to BLI that one of the planned GG1's may have never existed. They announced and repeated the believed error in a recent Model Railroader ad. It is for a Tuscan GG1 with Gold Leaf lettering and stripes. To the best of our recollection, this would not have been. Can anyone tell me otherwise? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 17:27:05 -0500 Jerry and List, Regarding the BLI Tuscan Red GG1, you can change your sour note to sweet. There definitely were Tuscan Red GG1's with Gold Leaf Lettering in the five-stripe scheme. I finally remembered where I had seen this and located the color slides. They were among a bunch of duplicate slides I bought many years ago from the late Jim Kelly. Most of the originals had been taken by the late John Prophet. I'll list the slides, using Jim Kelly's catalog numbers, in case others on the list might have them and want to look for themselves: E19 - GG1 4913 at Newark, NJ 3/13/51. Slide noted as "First Runs of the Congressional". This is a close-up view of part of the side of the GG1, obviously freshly painted. Very bright glossy Tuscan Red with brilliantly reflective Gold striping and lettering. The Gold is a true 24- karat metallic gold, very different from the later Buff color. E18 - GG1 4911, same date, place and notation. An angled view of the locomotive - Tuscan Red with brightly reflective Gold Striping, not Buff. E 17 - GG1 4911, same date, place and notation. A going away view as above. E16 - GG1 4908, same date, place and notation. This one is perhaps the most interesting and convincing of the bunch. The front of the GG1 is in sunlight, the side in shadow. The front shows the Tuscan Red color very well, as expected. The side is so dark that you can't tell what color it was. The interesting and convincing thing is that even on the dark side, the Gold striping and lettering gleams like only true Gold Leaf can do. E12 - GG1 4909 at a grade crossing North of Princeton Jct., NJ in 1951 (month and day not given). This is a photo that Jim Kelly took himself. It shows a Tuscan Red GG1 with Gold Leaf striping and lettering. So, with just this small batch of photos, we know that there were at least four different GG1's with Gold Leaf striping and lettering. There may have been more. >From PRR drawings we know that the change from Gold Leaf to Buff striping and lettering occurred on 8-11-52 for diesel-electrics in passenger service and 10-13-52 for the lettering on passenger service steam locomotives and tenders. For most passenger cars the change from Gold Leaf to Imitation Gold Enamel occurred on 10-6-52. For passenger sevice diesel-electrics, 8-11-52 was also the date of change from "Dark Green Locomotive Paint" to "Synthetic Tuscan Red Enamel". The above photographic evidence shows that the change from dark green to Tuscan Red occurred earlier for GG1's than for other equipment, before the change to Buff lettering and striping. It would be nice to confirm this from PRR drawings. However, I don't have the GG1 painting and lettering arrangement drawing for this time period, so I can't check the notes on the drawing for colors and dates of change. If anyone knows the drawing number, I might be able to find it on the PRR microfilm. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 10:29 AM Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports > On a sour note, I (with the support of others) submitted to BLI that one of > the planned GG1's may have never existed. They announced and repeated the > believed error in a recent Model Railroader ad. It is for a Tuscan GG1 with > Gold Leaf lettering and stripes. To the best of our recollection, this would > not have been. Can anyone tell me otherwise? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] Walthers R50B Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 18:20:59 -0500 Just received some info on new products from Walthers and their HO R50B is scheduled for January release. Based on photo of model provided, it looks pretty darn good and the trucks are of better detail than Bachmann's. Car will be offered in three paint schemes - prewar, postwar and keystone herald (Walthers nomenclature, not mine) and three different car numbers per paint scheme plus undecorated. I certainly hope they make the trucks available separately. If I recall, someone on this list participated in this project and maybe can supply some info. as to whether Walthers will indeed offer the trucks separately. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 18:52:21 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports From: Jerry Britton On 11/4/02 5:27 PM, "Bob Johnson" wrote: > Regarding the BLI Tuscan Red GG1, you can change your sour note to sweet. > There definitely were Tuscan Red GG1's with Gold Leaf Lettering in the > five-stripe scheme. Kudos! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 18:54:07 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B From: Jerry Britton On 11/4/02 6:20 PM, "parkvarieties" wrote: > Just received some info on new products from Walthers and their HO R50B is > scheduled for January release. Based on photo of model provided, it looks > pretty darn good and the trucks are of better detail > than Bachmann's. Car will be offered in three paint schemes - prewar, > postwar and keystone herald (Walthers nomenclature, not > mine) and three different car numbers per paint scheme plus undecorated. > I certainly hope they make the trucks available separately. If I recall, > someone on this list participated in this project and maybe can supply some > info. as to whether Walthers will indeed offer the trucks separately. Great news for HO scalers, for sure! I believe the credit goes to Greg Martin, who's on a roll following up from his work on the Athearn Genesis F7's. So, Greg, what's your next project? ;) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 19:59:54 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B In a message dated 11/4/2002 6:54:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > Great news for HO scalers, for sure! I believe the credit goes to Greg > Martin, who's on a roll following up from his work on the > Athearn Genesis > F7's. So, Greg, what's your next project? ;) Jerry and all... The thanks goes out to all on the list for their appreciation in the PENNSY! To all thoose guys, especially Bruce Smith and andy miller for pushing me to getting it started. BUT... It would never have happened at all if it was not for BOB JOHNSON and his ability to supply all the technical data via the PRRT&HS. Bob you are the Man of the hour, who behind the scene did all the hard work to bring this project into a REALITY! Thanks Bob! Greg Martin NEXT UP A B60b and a completetion of the G38 and G38 project and on to the N8 and the H30. Who know from there. These are symbols of what the Pennsy was and still remains in all of us! Cross your finger for a J1-J1a! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 20:03:49 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports Jerry/list... I saw one of these today (but not running). The detailing is BETTER than the pre-production model and it is noticably heavier... I eagerly await a report of it's operations... Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 20:52:36 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Thanks To All I would like to thank and appreciate everyone who responded to my request. It shows that are a lot of people who are willing to help if asked. I have added maps to the Buckeye Region, Lake Region and Southwestern Region. Will be finishing the rest of the regions very soon. Randy http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 09:10:36 -0500 You can (also) find pictures of red GG-1's in my best selling novel - Pennsy Electric Years - Morning Sun Books. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Johnson Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 5:27 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports Jerry and List, Regarding the BLI Tuscan Red GG1, you can change your sour note to sweet. There definitely were Tuscan Red GG1's with Gold Leaf Lettering in the five-stripe scheme. I finally remembered where I had seen this and located the color slides. They were among a bunch of duplicate slides I bought many years ago from the late Jim Kelly. Most of the originals had been taken by the late John Prophet. I'll list the slides, using Jim Kelly's catalog numbers, in case others on the list might have them and want to look for themselves: E19 - GG1 4913 at Newark, NJ 3/13/51. Slide noted as "First Runs of the Congressional". This is a close-up view of part of the side of the GG1, obviously freshly painted. Very bright glossy Tuscan Red with brilliantly reflective Gold striping and lettering. The Gold is a true 24- karat metallic gold, very different from the later Buff color. E18 - GG1 4911, same date, place and notation. An angled view of the locomotive - Tuscan Red with brightly reflective Gold Striping, not Buff. E 17 - GG1 4911, same date, place and notation. A going away view as above. E16 - GG1 4908, same date, place and notation. This one is perhaps the most interesting and convincing of the bunch. The front of the GG1 is in sunlight, the side in shadow. The front shows the Tuscan Red color very well, as expected. The side is so dark that you can't tell what color it was. The interesting and convincing thing is that even on the dark side, the Gold striping and lettering gleams like only true Gold Leaf can do. E12 - GG1 4909 at a grade crossing North of Princeton Jct., NJ in 1951 (month and day not given). This is a photo that Jim Kelly took himself. It shows a Tuscan Red GG1 with Gold Leaf striping and lettering. So, with just this small batch of photos, we know that there were at least four different GG1's with Gold Leaf striping and lettering. There may have been more. >From PRR drawings we know that the change from Gold Leaf to Buff striping and lettering occurred on 8-11-52 for diesel-electrics in passenger service and 10-13-52 for the lettering on passenger service steam locomotives and tenders. For most passenger cars the change from Gold Leaf to Imitation Gold Enamel occurred on 10-6-52. For passenger sevice diesel-electrics, 8-11-52 was also the date of change from "Dark Green Locomotive Paint" to "Synthetic Tuscan Red Enamel". The above photographic evidence shows that the change from dark green to Tuscan Red occurred earlier for GG1's than for other equipment, before the change to Buff lettering and striping. It would be nice to confirm this from PRR drawings. However, I don't have the GG1 painting and lettering arrangement drawing for this time period, so I can't check the notes on the drawing for colors and dates of change. If anyone knows the drawing number, I might be able to find it on the PRR microfilm. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 10:29 AM Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports > On a sour note, I (with the support of others) submitted to BLI that one of > the planned GG1's may have never existed. They announced and repeated the > believed error in a recent Model Railroader ad. It is for a Tuscan GG1 with > Gold Leaf lettering and stripes. To the best of our recollection, this would > not have been. Can anyone tell me otherwise? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 08:40:35 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports >You can (also) find pictures of red GG-1's in my best selling novel - >Pennsy Electric Years - Morning Sun Books. > >WDV Bill, Indeed, your photos were very helpful with the Tuscan/dulux question! To clarify the issue, most secondary sources claim that 4908-4913 were painted Tuscan in 1952. This would be coincident with the introduction of dulux lettering and would have indicated that the Tuscan GG1s never had gold leaf lettering. Thus, the concern was that BLI was advertising for a paint scheme that never occurred (the mix of gold and tuscan). The existence of 1951 photographs provides evidence that these locos had gold lettering & stripes. I will say that I have been fooled many times by color photos in which I thought the lettering was gold and it was dulux, or vice versa, but if the dates on Bob's photos are solid, it seems like good evidence to me. So BLI's Tuscan/Gold scheme may be OK, but it is only appropriate for a year or so (1951 - early 1952) Obviously, the most appropriate reference would be a paint diagram that showed Tuscan with gold leaf, or your memory, if you remember such a phenomenon ! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 08:48:15 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B >Just received some info on new products from Walthers and their HO R50B is >scheduled for January release. Based on photo of model provided, it looks >pretty darn good and the trucks are of better detail >than Bachmann's. Car will be offered in three paint schemes - prewar, >postwar and keystone herald (Walthers nomenclature, not >mine) and three different car numbers per paint scheme plus undecorated. >I certainly hope they make the trucks available separately. If I recall, >someone on this list participated in this project and maybe can supply some >info. as to whether Walthers will indeed offer the trucks separately. > >Frank Brua Thanks for the "heads up" Frank! These are now listed on the Walther's site for "advance reservation" http://www.walthers.com/ (search for "R50") for $24.98 each, or 2 packs for $49.98. I couldn't find any photos online yet. I guess I need to wait and see what the "prewar" paint scheme looks like...I know I end up repainted the Botchman "prewar" cars to match 1944 practices. Hopefully, Walthers took our advice, has followed their own trend and provided a variety of grab iron options to allow various "versions" of the R50b to be modeled...In the end, I'm sure that I will have to order a bunch of these ! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 10:11:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] GG1 Gold/Buff Lettering and Stripes Hey Bruce......... I have a PRR Paint diagram for GG1s from 1952. These notes are on the diagram and read as followed: "gold leaf replaced by buff enamel. Three coats of dark green specified. Reference numbers for buff and dark green enamels shown. "Except 4908-4913 incl" Added to title. 10-6-52 (EL-27-52)" Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 10:36:56 -0500 Bruce et al, Have had a number of requests to post the Walthers R50B picture. You can view it at: www.provide.net/~parkvarieties/wkwr50b.jpg I am going to pursue Walthers about making the trucks available separately. Will let you guys know if they respond. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B >>Just received some info on new products from Walthers and their HO R50B is >>scheduled for January release. Based on photo of model provided, it looks >>pretty darn good and the trucks are of better detail >>than Bachmann's. Car will be offered in three paint schemes - prewar, >>postwar and keystone herald (Walthers nomenclature, not >>mine) and three different car numbers per paint scheme plus undecorated. >>I certainly hope they make the trucks available separately. If I recall, >>someone on this list participated in this project and maybe can supply some >>info. as to whether Walthers will indeed offer the trucks separately. >> >>Frank Brua > >Thanks for the "heads up" Frank! These are now listed on the Walther's >site for "advance reservation" http://www.walthers.com/ (search for "R50") >for $24.98 each, or 2 packs for $49.98. I couldn't find any photos online >yet. I guess I need to wait and see what the "prewar" paint scheme looks >like...I know I end up repainted the Botchman "prewar" cars to match 1944 >practices. Hopefully, Walthers took our advice, has followed their own >trend and provided a variety of grab iron options to allow various >"versions" of the R50b to be modeled...In the end, I'm sure that I will >have to order a bunch of these ! > >Happy Rails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 10:39:20 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports In a message dated 11/5/02 8:43:31 AM Central Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << So BLI's Tuscan/Gold scheme may be OK, but it is only appropriate for a year or so (1951 - early 1952) >> Bruce, you are giving the Pennsy a lot of credit for implementing paint schemes fast. I suspect you could cheat a little on that end date :-). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 Gold/Buff Lettering and Stripes Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 10:52:23 -0500 Dave, Thanks for the information from your drawing. What is the drawing number in the title block? And what tracing number does it supersede? There should be a note close to the title block that tells this and gives a reason why the old tracing was made obsolete. Other useful information would be the date of the drawing from the title block and the date the drawing was issued. A listing of the all the notes on the drawing and their dates would be very valuable. In particular is there a note that says something like "Except 4908-4913 incl" added? If so, that note and its date would be very significant. Is there anything that says something like "See tracing NNNNNN for 4908-4913 incl"? That tracing is the one we need to find. Thanks for any further help you can give. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Bruce F. Smith" ; ; Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:11 AM Subject: [PRR] GG1 Gold/Buff Lettering and Stripes > Hey Bruce......... > > I have a PRR Paint diagram for GG1s from 1952. These notes are on > the diagram and read as followed: > > "gold leaf replaced by buff enamel. Three coats of dark green > specified. Reference numbers for buff and dark green enamels shown. > "Except 4908-4913 incl" Added to title. > 10-6-52 (EL-27-52)" > > Hope this helps. > Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 10:22:38 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Frank, Thanks - looks nice! It looks like the "prewar" scheme is depicted and I like it. From the announcement, my wish about wire grabs has been answered! BTW, What the dickens is a "P70" truck? ;^) (looks like a 2D-P5?) We also suggested at least 10 numbers for each scheme...guess they didn't like that idea (I would also have gone for a painted, un-numbered car)...guess I'll be renubmering some of mine! Happy Rails Bruce >Bruce et al, > >Have had a number of requests to post the Walthers R50B picture. >You can view it at: >www.provide.net/~parkvarieties/wkwr50b.jpg > >I am going to pursue Walthers about making the trucks available separately. >Will let you guys know if they respond. >Frank Brua Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 11:39:17 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Tortoise Switch Machines From: Jerry Britton Not PRR, but I'm sure there are a lot of modelers on the list who use Tortoise switch machines... I have one instance where the hole for my switch machine comes through the subroadbed tight up against a benchwork joist. Yeah, I know, poor planning! Anyway, the hole is free and clear, but the alignment of the turnout is neither parallel or perpendicular to the joist, but on about a 35-degree angle. The Tortoise can't be mounted in the normal fashion as the corner of the case is in the way. The template for mounting the Tortoise offers two alternate locations. I believe one of these will work. But the instructions indicates that using these will "change the geometry of the spring wire. Request Application Note AN-6000-01." Anyone know where I can get this tech note? I'm sure I could figure it out by trial and error, but doing it right the first time sure would be helpful! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 10:41:23 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Re: GG1 Gold/Buff Lettering and Stripes >Hey Bruce......... > > I have a PRR Paint diagram for GG1s from 1952. These notes are on >the diagram and read as followed: > > "gold leaf replaced by buff enamel. Three coats of dark green >specified. Reference numbers for buff and dark green enamels shown. >"Except 4908-4913 incl" Added to title. >10-6-52 (EL-27-52)" > >Hope this helps. >Dave I don't know if it HELPS . I can see why everyone says these locos were painted tuscan in 1952!!! From the notation, it would seem that this occurred around October. Mostly, it causes me to ask more questions (Bob's list came in as I wrote this - I'd love to know the answeres too!) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 11:58:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 Gold/Buff Lettering and Stripes Bob & List.... This drawing I have is in real bad shape. I was just a kid when it was given to me a PRR worker and I didn't really take care of it. The corners are just about gone. All of the words "GOLD" have been crossed out and replaced with the word: "BUFF". More Tracing Nos....... "For Letters,see Tracing C-97662 Sheet 1" For Letters,see Tracing C 97663 Sheet 2 For Numerals, see Tracing C-15477 "This tracing supersedes B-405899 made obsolete on account of no longer using Futura lettering 7-12-41" "Tracing Number of Keystone on front door changed from D-443206 to D-424314 on acocount of replacing monogram with numerals." 3-3-54(EL-6-54)" "Roof-Black Asphaltum Paint- REF.47-556" "Car Body Painted with 3 coats of dark green locomotive enamel. REF. 47-2626" "All letters,numerals,striping and edging of Keystone,marked buff enamel, to be painted in buff lettering enamel. REF. 47-2616" "for marker light numerals, see Tracing E-95949" Hope this helps...... Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 Gold/Buff Lettering and Stripes Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 12:46:27 -0500 Dave, Bruce and List, Thanks again, Dave, for the information. At least you saved the drawing. There are things I didn't save, that I wish I had taken care of and still had. The key piece of information that you sent is the date 7-12-41 that the Futura drawing B-405899 was made obsolete. That will also be the title block date of the drawing you have. With that, I have a good chance of locating your drawing on the microfilm the next time I go to Lewistown - not until next week, unfortunately, so I won't be able to report on what I find until 11/17 or later. Perhaps the microfilm will be clear enough to read other notes near the edges. Can anybody confirm the date of first operation of the new equipment on the Congressional? Was it 3/13/51? If it was, that would tend to confirm the dates on the slides. I can readily believe that John Prophet would have arranged to be there on the first day to take photos. He would be unlikely to have labeled the slides "First Runs of the Congressional" if it weren't true. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Bob Johnson" ; Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 Gold/Buff Lettering and Stripes > Bob & List.... > > This drawing I have is in real bad shape. I was just a kid when it > was given to me a PRR worker and I didn't really take care of it. The > corners are just about gone. > All of the words "GOLD" have been crossed out and replaced with the > word: "BUFF". > More Tracing Nos....... > > "For Letters,see Tracing C-97662 Sheet 1" > For Letters,see Tracing C 97663 Sheet 2 > For Numerals, see Tracing C-15477 > > "This tracing supersedes B-405899 made obsolete on account of no > longer using Futura lettering 7-12-41" > "Tracing Number of Keystone on front door changed from D-443206 > to D-424314 on acocount of replacing monogram with numerals." > 3-3-54(EL-6-54)" > "Roof-Black Asphaltum Paint- REF.47-556" > "Car Body Painted with 3 coats of dark green locomotive > enamel. REF. 47-2626" > "All letters,numerals,striping and edging of Keystone,marked > buff enamel, to be painted in buff lettering enamel. REF. 47-2616" > "for marker light numerals, see Tracing E-95949" > > Hope this helps...... > > Dave Hopson > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 13:07:46 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 Gold/Buff Lettering and Stripes Greetings to Bob and the list: Should be easy enough to cross-check in microfilms of Phila. newspapers for that date, available at many larger libraries. I'll try to remember to look it up next time I'm at the State Library here in Harrisburg. The PRR put so much money into those trains, and with Budd being a hometown supplier, that I can't imagine the railroad would have done a stealth-style rollout. But stranger things have happened. Dan Cupper ---------------------------- Bob Johnson wrote: > > Dave, Bruce and List, > > Thanks again, Dave, for the information. At least you saved the drawing. > There are things I didn't save, that I wish I had taken care of and still > had. > > The key piece of information that you sent is the date 7-12-41 that the > Futura drawing B-405899 was made obsolete. That will also be the title > block date of the drawing you have. With that, I have a good chance of > locating your drawing on the microfilm the next time I go to Lewistown - not > until next week, unfortunately, so I won't be able to report on what I find > until 11/17 or later. Perhaps the microfilm will be clear enough to read > other notes near the edges. > > Can anybody confirm the date of first operation of the new equipment on the > Congressional? Was it 3/13/51? If it was, that would tend to confirm the > dates on the slides. I can readily believe that John Prophet would have > arranged to be there on the first day to take photos. He would be unlikely > to have labeled the slides "First Runs of the Congressional" if it weren't > true. > > Bob Johnson > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Bob Johnson" ; > Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 11:58 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 Gold/Buff Lettering and Stripes > > > Bob & List.... > > > > This drawing I have is in real bad shape. I was just a kid when it > > was given to me a PRR worker and I didn't really take care of it. The > > corners are just about gone. > > All of the words "GOLD" have been crossed out and replaced with the > > word: "BUFF". > > More Tracing Nos....... > > > > "For Letters,see Tracing C-97662 Sheet 1" > > For Letters,see Tracing C 97663 Sheet 2 > > For Numerals, see Tracing C-15477 > > > > "This tracing supersedes B-405899 made obsolete on account of no > > longer using Futura lettering 7-12-41" > > "Tracing Number of Keystone on front door changed from D-443206 > > to D-424314 on acocount of replacing monogram with numerals." > > 3-3-54(EL-6-54)" > > "Roof-Black Asphaltum Paint- REF.47-556" > > "Car Body Painted with 3 coats of dark green locomotive > > enamel. REF. 47-2626" > > "All letters,numerals,striping and edging of Keystone,marked > > buff enamel, to be painted in buff lettering enamel. REF. 47-2616" > > "for marker light numerals, see Tracing E-95949" > > > > Hope this helps...... > > > > Dave Hopson > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 13:22:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 Gold/Buff Lettering and Stripes --part1_57.146cc46a.2af96653_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/5/02 12:53:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobjohnson@alltel.net writes: > Can anybody confirm the date of first operation of the new equipment on the > Congressional? Was it 3/13/51? If it was, that would tend to confirm the > dates on the slides. I can readily believe that John Prophet would have > arranged to be there on the first day to take photos. He would be unlikely > to have labeled the slides "First Runs of the Congressional" if it weren't > true Hi Bob and others, Vol. 3 No. 3 (Spring 1983) issue of "The High Line", Phila. Chapter PRRT&HS has a reprint of Preliminary Instructions regarding "The Congressional" and "The Senator" cars. Two train sets were made up and exhibited prior to the cars being used in scheduled service. Congressional #1 was on display as follows: March 12, 1952 - New York and Newark March 13, 1952 - New York March 14, 1952 - Philadelphia Congressional #2 was on display as follows: March 5, 1952 - Philadelphia March 12, 1952 - Washington March 13, 1952 - Baltimore March 14, 1952 - Wilmington Senator equipment was on display at points on the New Haven RR from March 11 to March 14. 2 press trains were operated, one in each direction, on March 11, 1952. The cars entered regular service on Monday, March 17, 1952 in trains 176-177-152-153-120-131. The notation on John's slide has the right month and day but the wrong year. Best regards, Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_57.146cc46a.2af96653_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/5/02 12:53:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, bobjohnson@alltel.net writes:

Can anybody confirm the date of first operation of the new equipment on the
Congressional?  Was it 3/13/51?  If it was, that would tend to confirm the
dates on the slides.  I can readily believe that John Prophet would have
arranged to be there on the first day to take photos.  He would be unlikely
to have labeled the slides "First Runs of the Congressional" if it weren't
true


Hi Bob and others,

Vol. 3 No. 3 (Spring 1983) issue of "The High Line", Phila. Chapter PRRT&HS has a reprint of Preliminary Instructions regarding "The Congressional" and "The Senator" cars.  Two train sets were made up and exhibited prior to the cars being used in scheduled service.

Congressional #1 was on display as follows:

March 12, 1952 - New York and Newark
March 13, 1952 - New York
March 14, 1952 - Philadelphia

Congressional #2 was on display as follows:

March  5, 1952 - Philadelphia
March 12, 1952 - Washington
March 13, 1952 - Baltimore
March 14, 1952 - Wilmington

Senator equipment was on display at points on the New Haven RR from March 11 to March 14.

2 press trains were operated, one in each direction, on March 11, 1952.

The cars entered regular service on Monday, March 17, 1952 in trains 176-177-152-153-120-131.

The notation on John's slide has the right month and day but the wrong year.

Best regards,

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_57.146cc46a.2af96653_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] passenger car detail question Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 09:18:57 -0500 Friends: Can anyone tell me the name of the style of brakewheel used on PRR steel passenger cars? It is an attractive design consisting of 5 kidney shaped lobes, interconnected around the center shaft. Does anyone manufacture this wheel in HO scale for sale as a separate part? Lew Matt Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic and Energy Systems. Advocating sustainable composting toilets and gray water systems. Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B pricing Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 13:46:06 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B > for $24.98 each, or 2 packs for $49.98. How come if you buy a 2 pack it costs $.02 more???? Lew Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 14:23:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR N5c Update List, I have added a few more pics of the on going restortion of N5c 477974. They can be seen here if you wish to visit: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/BVJCN5c.html We are just scratching the surface as to what needs done.to get this back to close to an as delivered N5c ...... Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] December MR Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 19:30:14 +0000 Did anybody else get a screwed up copy? Mine has pages missing and duplicates of others. I only got the first and last page of the article on the Geeps. Fortunately the PRR layout article was complete. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] PRR PA's Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 19:32:10 +0000 If I am not mistaken the PRR only had ten PA's. Check the pictures of the front coupler opening. There are at least three different shapes to the opening. I would assume that they were all delivered about the same time. Any thoughts as to what accounts for the differences? Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 15:05:44 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR PA's From: Jerry Britton On 11/5/02 2:32 PM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > If I am not mistaken the PRR only had ten PA's. Correct...#5750-5759. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 14:23:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR N5c Update List, I have added a few more pics of the on going restortion of N5c 477974. They can be seen here if you wish to visit: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/BVJCN5c.html We are just scratching the surface as to what needs done.to get this back to close to an as delivered N5c ...... Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/jd3IAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 15:51:21 -0500 Norm, Of course, here in the boonies of the FLA panhandle we haven't gotten it yet! Call the 800 number and complain, they'll send another immediately. I sent an e-mail to tell them that some photos in an issue earlier this year had printing problems (ink blobs) as a "heads up" and two days later there was a new copy sent first class! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 2:30 PM Subject: [PRR] December MR > Did anybody else get a screwed up copy? Mine has pages missing and duplicates > of others. I only got the first and last page of the article on the Geeps. > Fortunately the PRR layout article was complete. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 15:47:27 -0500 Will the instructions tell us which paint to use to match the prepainted sides for painting the metal handrails? Garry Spear ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 15:50:58 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B >Will the instructions tell us which paint to use to match the prepainted >sides for painting the metal handrails? > >Garry Spear > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Garry, No problem there - paint em Black! The grabs on passenger equipment were painted black. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 Gold/Buff Lettering and Stripes Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 16:54:21 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C284EB.FCBE34E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andy and List, Thanks for the information on the display and first operation of "The = Congressional" and "The Senator". We're edging closer to the truth on = this matter. March 1952 is still seven months before the change from = Gold Leaf to Buff, shown on Dave's drawing as 10-6-52. The March 1952 = dates may make it possible for me to locate a lettering arrangement = drawing for GG1's 4908-4913. That's looking more and more like what we = need. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message -----=20 From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com=20 To: bobjohnson@alltel.net ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 Gold/Buff Lettering and Stripes Hi Bob and others, Vol. 3 No. 3 (Spring 1983) issue of "The High Line", Phila. Chapter = PRRT&HS has a reprint of Preliminary Instructions regarding "The = Congressional" and "The Senator" cars. Two train sets were made up and = exhibited prior to the cars being used in scheduled service. Congressional #1 was on display as follows: March 12, 1952 - New York and Newark March 13, 1952 - New York March 14, 1952 - Philadelphia Congressional #2 was on display as follows: March 5, 1952 - Philadelphia March 12, 1952 - Washington March 13, 1952 - Baltimore March 14, 1952 - Wilmington Senator equipment was on display at points on the New Haven RR from = March 11 to March 14. 2 press trains were operated, one in each direction, on March 11, = 1952. The cars entered regular service on Monday, March 17, 1952 in trains = 176-177-152-153-120-131. The notation on John's slide has the right month and day but the wrong = year. Best regards, Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C284EB.FCBE34E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Andy and List,
 
Thanks for the information on the = display and first=20 operation of "The Congressional" and "The Senator".  We're edging = closer to=20 the truth on this matter.  March 1952 is still seven months before = the=20 change from Gold Leaf to Buff, shown on Dave's drawing as 10-6-52.  = The=20 March 1952 dates may make it possible for me to locate a lettering = arrangement=20 drawing for GG1's 4908-4913.  That's looking more and more like = what we=20 need.
 
Bob Johnson
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 AHARTPRR137@aol.com
To: bobjohnson@alltel.net ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, November 05, = 2002 1:22=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 = Gold/Buff=20 Lettering and Stripes

Hi Bob and others,

Vol. 3 No. = 3 (Spring=20 1983) issue of "The High Line", Phila. Chapter PRRT&HS has a = reprint of=20 Preliminary Instructions regarding "The Congressional" and "The = Senator"=20 cars.  Two train sets were made up and exhibited prior to the = cars being=20 used in scheduled service.

Congressional #1 was on display as=20 follows:

March 12, 1952 - New York and Newark
March 13, 1952 = - New=20 York
March 14, 1952 - Philadelphia

Congressional #2 was on = display=20 as follows:

March  5, 1952 - Philadelphia
March 12, = 1952 -=20 Washington
March 13, 1952 - Baltimore
March 14, 1952 -=20 Wilmington

Senator equipment was on display at points on the = New Haven=20 RR from March 11 to March 14.

2 press trains were operated, one = in each=20 direction, on March 11, 1952.

The cars entered regular service = on=20 Monday, March 17, 1952 in trains 176-177-152-153-120-131.

The = notation=20 on John's slide has the right month and day but the wrong = year.

Best=20 regards,

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0053_01C284EB.FCBE34E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 17:13:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B pricing --part1_48.1470c8e6.2af99c73_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/5/02 2:03:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, lmatt@alltel.net writes: > >for $24.98 each, or 2 packs for $49.98. > > How come if you buy a 2 pack it costs $.02 more???? > > Lew Matt Hi Lew and others, Perhaps because it comes in a bigger box. You may also get only one set of handrails and grab irons, as well as one set of instructions. At least that's the way the 2 packs for the USRA gons and the REX express reefers came. Andy Hart --part1_48.1470c8e6.2af99c73_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/5/02 2:03:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, lmatt@alltel.net writes:

>for $24.98 each, or 2 packs for $49.98. 

How come if you buy a 2 pack it costs $.02 more????

Lew Matt


Hi Lew and others,

Perhaps because it comes in a bigger box.  You may also get only one set of handrails and grab irons, as well as one set of instructions.  At least that's the way the 2 packs for the USRA gons and the REX express reefers came.

Andy Hart --part1_48.1470c8e6.2af99c73_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Amtrak e-mal list Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 17:25:45 -0500 Anyone know whether there's an Amtrak e-mail list that would let me keep up with what Amtrak is doing in PRR territory (obligatory PRR content). Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] Trainfest Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 17:38:48 -0500

Can someone who is going to Trainfest please give those of us who live too far a report? I am curious as to the quality of the N&W Class A and what they have to say about their future releases.
Thanks,
Eric
----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: RE: [PRR] Trainfest Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 17:05:15 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C284ED.83789AB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Eric, I'm sure some cheesehead will report back to the list before I do. I plan to look for Broadway Ltd. At Trainfest. Want to see for myself the level of workmanship we can expect in future offerings. I will also be listening as well. Pete Reinhold Can someone who is going to Trainfest please give those of us who live too far a report? I am curious as to the quality of the N&W Class A and what they have to say about their future releases. Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C284ED.83789AB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Eric,

 

   I’m sure some cheesehead will report back to the list before I = do. I plan to look for Broadway Ltd. At Trainfest. Want to see for myself the level of workmanship we can expect in future offerings. I will also be listening as = well.

 

Pete = Reinhold

 

Can someone who is going to Trainfest please = give those of us who live too far a report? I am curious as to the quality of = the N&W Class A and what they have to say about their future = releases.

Thanks,

Eric

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C284ED.83789AB0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: [PRR] Walthers R50B Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 17:24:59 -0600 List, Can I assume that by 1950 all the R50B's were in postwar paint? Knowing just how dangerous it is to assume, Pete Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 19:08:43 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak e-mal list From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" on 11/5/02 5:25 PM, William Bigler at wbigler@stny.rr.com wrote: > Anyone know whether there's an Amtrak e-mail list that would let me keep up > with what Amtrak is doing in PRR territory (obligatory PRR content). > There is a low volume Amtrak list on Yahoo, but not segregated by territory. If you are interested in the central Pennsylvania area, I also host HarrisRailFan which you can learn about at http://lists.dsop.com . ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 19:13:02 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 Gold/Buff Lettering and Stripes Another question I have: I thought the silver G's were the ones repainted specifically for the Congressional. I wasn't aware the tuscan scheme was correlated with that train's debut. This is a question only, not a statement---I really don't know the answer. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 Gold/Buff Lettering and Stripes Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 19:44:44 -0500 Bob, I've always heard that the silver GG1's were so painted for the SAL's "Silver" trains, plus the ACL and SOU through trains, which were also almost all stainless steel cars. I know that's where I usually saw them when working in Baltimore. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GG1 Gold/Buff Lettering and Stripes > Another question I have: I thought the silver G's were the ones repainted > specifically for the Congressional. I wasn't aware the tuscan scheme was > correlated with that train's debut. This is a question only, not a > statement---I really don't know the answer. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 20:03:02 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B In a message Bruce Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) writes: > I guess I need to wait and see what the "prewar" paint scheme looks like...I know I end up repainted the Botchman "prewar" cars to match 1944 practices. Hopefully, Walthers took our advice, has followed their own trend and provided a variety of grab iron options to allow various "versions" of the R50b to be modeled...In the end, I'm sure that I will have to order a bunch of these ! > > Happy Rails > Bruce< Bruce and all, TRUST ME! They will be right! The only argument will be the actual color matches and that was my department and the Buff will be correct! So if you don't like the color WRITE ME! Please set aside past practices by other manufacturers and old bias'. Use an open mind and know that it is as correct as we could get it! I will give you the color amtches in the near future but let's let Walthers do as they ahve with their newest products and get them on the market first. You'll all be very happy! AGAIN, BOB YOU DA MAN! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 19:58:31 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - SD-45 From: Beth Caples Someone mentioned the other day of some PRR SD-45's still going strong today as rebuilt SD40-2's on UP! Could you please send me the Number series because I live near the Up mainline. I would love to photograph the ex -PRR units. Thanks, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 21:22:48 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Tortoise Switch Machines From: Roger P Hensley On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 11:39:17 -0500 Jerry Britton writes: > The template for mounting the Tortoise offers two alternate > locations. I > believe one of these will work. But the > instructions indicates that using these will "change the > geometry of the spring wire. Request Application Note > AN-6000-01." > > Anyone know where I can get this tech note? I'm sure I > could figure it out by trial and error, but doing it right the > first time sure would be helpful! That has to come from the manufacturer, but I'm not sure that will help that much if you are operating at an angle in addition to an offset. I had to use an offset on one of mine. I used the original wire to experiment with until I thought that I had the shape corrent and then I went to a slightly larger music wire to increase the hold. No problems after that. It did take two or three hours to get the shape that I needed. Roger Hensley === Railroads of Madison County === === http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ === ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 18:51:21 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Another color question All this talk about colors of GG1's and handrails reminds me of a different puzzle. If one of y'ns were to hop into a time machine, go to Latrobe, Pa. 50 years ago and engage me in conversation, the following might ensue: "Now tell me, young man, what color are the steam locomotives you see on the PRR?" "Well, sir, for the most part they are black." "You say 'for the most part'. What are the exceptions?" "Those streamlined T1 locomotives are a dark green color." I'm not claiming that DGLE is really black. But, my recollection from that time is as reported in the fictitious conversation above. That is, T1's were noticeably green, other steam locomotives weren't. Is this just a false recollection or were the T1's a lighter green than the run-of-the-mill steam? Or, were they usually cleaner? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 22:09:38 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Another color question In a message dated 11/5/02 8:58:05 PM Central Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: << Is this just a false recollection or were the T1's a lighter green than the run-of-the-mill steam? Or, were they usually cleaner? >> I have the same impression. They were probably cleaner at first, but do you suppose the difference might be the paint as applied to the sheet metal on the T1 versus that on a steel boiler? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 19:40:49 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Another color question --- Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/5/02 8:58:05 PM Central Standard Time, > wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > > << Is this just a false recollection or were the T1's a lighter > green > than the run-of-the-mill steam? Or, were they usually cleaner? >> > > I have the same impression. I'm not alone. > They were probably cleaner at first, > but do you > suppose the difference might be the paint as applied to the sheet > metal on > the T1 versus that on a steel boiler? I'm not sure what you're getting at. I would suppose that the paint on the boiler of a K4 might get hotter than the paint on the shroud of a T1; and, over time, that might darken the paint. But if that's going to make a marked difference in color, why wouldn't the temperature difference between the cab and the boiler or between the boiler and the tender show up as a color difference? Or am I missing something? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 23:47:17 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Another color question In a message dated 11/5/02 9:40:53 PM Central Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: << But if that's going to make a marked difference in color, why wouldn't the temperature difference between the cab and the boiler or between the boiler and the tender show up as a color difference? >> Good point. Have to look elsewhere for a reason :-). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 00:10:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B In a message dated 11/5/02 7:07:36 PM Central Standard Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: << I will give you the color amtches in the near future but let's let Walthers do as they have with their newest products and get them on the market first >> Sorry,can't wait. In addition to the R50B (already got my reservations in) I am delighted to see the announcement of the new Pullman-Standard 4-4-2, but what do they mean by PRR Late Scheme as far as the colors are concerned? 1947 with one stripe above and two stripes below the window in gold leaf ? That is later compared with FOM. Or the same layout in 1952 with Imitation Gold Enamel stripes? I assume the latter and I realize I will probably have a chance to talk with someone from Walthers in the next few days, but if you or another on the list have an immediate answer, I'd love to hear it. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 00:14:53 -0500 Gents; What document would guide me to this "1944 PRR practice" of car painting?? Earl Myers ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 8:03 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B > In a message Bruce Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) writes: > > > I guess I need to wait and see what the "prewar" paint scheme looks like...I know I end up repainted the Botchman "prewar" cars to match 1944 practices. Hopefully, Walthers took our advice, has followed their own trend and provided a variety of grab iron options to allow various "versions" of the R50b to be modeled...In the end, I'm sure that I will have to order a bunch of these ! > > > > Happy Rails > > Bruce< > > Bruce and all, > > TRUST ME! They will be right! The only argument will be the actual color matches and that was my department and the Buff will be correct! So if you don't like the color WRITE ME! Please set aside past practices by other manufacturers and old bias'. Use an open mind and know that it is as correct as we could get it! I will give you the color amtches in the near future but let's let Walthers do as they ahve with their newest products and get them on the market first. You'll all be very happy! AGAIN, BOB YOU DA MAN! > > Greg Martin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 08:09:40 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Another color question Boilers are lagged -- covered with asbestos and the sheathed in sheet steel so as to cover up much of the actual thick steel boiler plate and the attached "stuff", rivet heads and so on. This was both cosmetic and of some insulation value to keep the heat where it belonged. Fire boxes, smoke boxes and backheads were generally NOT lagged or sheathed. My vote is that soot and dirt made the DGLE look blacker. Jim McDaniel, speculating in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 08:07:46 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Another color question >> wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: >> >> << Is this just a false recollection or were the T1's a lighter >> green >> than the run-of-the-mill steam? Or, were they usually cleaner? >> --- Bobspf@aol.com wrote:> >I'm not sure what you're getting at. I would suppose that the paint >on the boiler of a K4 might get hotter than the paint on the shroud >of a T1; and, over time, that might darken the paint. > >But if that's going to make a marked difference in color, why >wouldn't the temperature difference between the cab and the boiler or >between the boiler and the tender show up as a color difference? >Or am I missing something? One word - Varnish I too have noted the phenomenon in photographs...GG1s look a lot greener than steamers. At least in part, this is due to the number of coats of varnish applied over the color. The varnish adds its own tint and protects the color coat from weathering as fast. in addition, passenger locos would have been polished on occaision. The challenge is duplicating this in paint...I used to scoff at those of you who said Grimy black was appropriate for PRR steamers...then I found out that Grimy black has GREEN in it...so it represents a darkened dirty DGLE...I still paint with DGLE and weather it down, as that will allow a freshly shopped K4 to ahve the correct green cast, but I can see how Grimy black would help the effort. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Another color question Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 14:15:28 +0000 I have this theory that the engines that ran on Lines West looked lighter than the engines that ran on the east end due to the dirt from the farms. By running through farm lands they picked up a coating of dust that would make them appear lighter - especially if they didn't get washed regularly. Sounds good anyway. > --- Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 11/5/02 8:58:05 PM Central Standard Time, > > wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > > > > << Is this just a false recollection or were the T1's a lighter > > green > > than the run-of-the-mill steam? Or, were they usually cleaner? >> > > > > I have the same impression. > > I'm not alone. > > > They were probably cleaner at first, > > but do you > > suppose the difference might be the paint as applied to the sheet > > metal on > > the T1 versus that on a steel boiler? > > I'm not sure what you're getting at. I would suppose that the paint > on the boiler of a K4 might get hotter than the paint on the shroud > of a T1; and, over time, that might darken the paint. > > But if that's going to make a marked difference in color, why > wouldn't the temperature difference between the cab and the boiler or > between the boiler and the tender show up as a color difference? > > Or am I missing something? > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 08:24:34 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B >Gents; > What document would guide me to this "1944 PRR practice" of car painting?? >Earl Myers My primary source is the guide to passenger car lettering and painting published by the PRRT&HS (sorry, I'm blanking on the title right now, since I haven't painted a passenger car in a couple years!). It has an easy to read chart that gives the schemes and appropriate dates. In addition, it has several lettering diagrams and lots of photos from all eras. Pete asked >Can I assume that by 1950 all the R50B's were in postwar paint? Good question - headend equipment didn't get the same atention as the rest of the fleet and the express reefers traveled the country, so you might have had some "dirty" prewar cars around...this does beg the question of the difference in the schemes. The most significant differences will be underbody/truck color (olive, with black appliances for "prewar", black for "postwar") and roof (car cement, a brownish black for "prewar", black for "postwar"). Lettering was buff long before WWII so the lettering shouldn't matter. In 1944, equipment had a mix of the schemes with black roofs and olive trucks. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 08:37:22 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Another color question ndbprr@att.net wrote: >I have this theory that the engines that ran on Lines West looked lighter >than >the engines that ran on the east end due to the dirt from the farms. By >running through farm lands they picked up a coating of dust that would make >them appear lighter - especially if they didn't get washed regularly. Sounds >good anyway. Absolutely! Weathering according to locale is a wonderful idea and REALLY helps set the schene. Soils change dramatically from region to region and weathering can definitely reflect that. Other characteristics of operation can also affect weathering. For example, locomotives used in areas with steeper grades would use a lot more sand and would have significant sand dust on their running gear. This is especailly true for helpers. Also, motors running on the electrified Wash - NY main would have very little exposure to steam locomotives and should show less smoke weathering than motors running on the freight only electrified lines. (NOTE that all motors used for passenger trains ought to show some smoke weathering due to the oil smoke from the steam heat boilers) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:08:18 EST Subject: [PRR] Off Subject: Mine Rescue Car No. 1 --part1_d2.20a19c03.2afa8a62_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lists, =A0=A0 I am involved with the restoration of this car.=A0 This car began lif= e in=20 August of 1882 as the "Palermo"=A0 built by Barney & Smith of Dayton, Ohio,= =A0=20 later to become part of the Wagner Palace Car Co..=A0 The car was built for=20= the=20 Vanderbilt-controlled New York Central (PRR List, sorry about having to=20 mention that name :-] ) Sleeping Car Co..=A0 This car, designed by Webster=20 Wagner, was first designated as B-15 1/2 and later as Plan 3023A. =A0=A0 Can anyone direct me to a source of drawings and documentation for th= e=20 Wagner (nee-Barney & Smith) passenger cars?=A0 The project is in need of=20 drawings to faithfully reconstruct the vestibules, buffers, buffer plates an= d=20 the buffer tread plate.=A0 We have photos of the as built interior but nothi= ng=20 for the end details.=A0 The car is to be restored to its as-delivered=20 configuration. =A0=A0 The car is currently located in Strasburg, Colorado (east of Denver)=20= at=20 Uhrich Locomotive Works were it has recently been delivered for restoration.= =20 Once restored, the car will be returned to a permanent display site in=20 Pueblo, Colorado.=20 Many thanks, Evan Leisey --part1_d2.20a19c03.2afa8a62_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lists,

=A0=A0 I am involved with the restoration of this car.=A0 This car began lif= e in
August of 1882 as the "Palermo"=A0 built by Barney & Smith of Dayton, Oh= io,=A0
later to become part of the Wagner Palace Car Co..=A0 The car was built for=20= the
Vanderbilt-controlled New York Central (PRR List, sorry about having to ment= ion that name :-]<= FONT COLOR=3D"#000000" style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=3D2 FAMILY= =3D"SANSSERIF" FACE=3D"Arial" LANG=3D"0"> ) Sleeping Car Co..=A0 This ca= r, designed by Webster Wagner, was first designated as B-15 1/2 and later as= Plan 3023A.

=A0=A0 Can anyone direct me to a source of drawings and documentation for th= e
Wagner (nee-Barney & Smith) passenger cars?=A0 The project is in need of=
drawings to faithfully reconstruct the vestibules, buffers, buffer plates an= d
the buffer tread plate.=A0 We have photos of the as built interior but nothi= ng
for the end details.=A0 The car is to be restored to its as-delivered config= uration.

=A0=A0 The car is currently located in Strasburg, Colorado (east of Denver)=20= at
Uhrich Locomotive Works were it has recently been delivered for restoration.= Once restored, the car will be returned to a permanent display site in Pueb= lo, Colorado.

Many thanks,

Evan Leisey

 --part1_d2.20a19c03.2afa8a62_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Another color question Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:30:55 -0500 I thought all the "lighters" were in New York Harbor and the Chesepeke Bay!!! Har Har. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 9:15 AM To: PRR-Talk; robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Another color question I have this theory that the engines that ran on Lines West looked lighter than the engines that ran on the east end due to the dirt from the farms. By running through farm lands they picked up a coating of dust that would make them appear lighter - especially if they didn't get washed regularly. Sounds good anyway. > --- Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 11/5/02 8:58:05 PM Central Standard Time, > > wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > > > > << Is this just a false recollection or were the T1's a lighter > > green > > than the run-of-the-mill steam? Or, were they usually cleaner? >> > > > > I have the same impression. > > I'm not alone. > > > They were probably cleaner at first, > > but do you > > suppose the difference might be the paint as applied to the sheet > > metal on > > the T1 versus that on a steel boiler? > > I'm not sure what you're getting at. I would suppose that the paint > on the boiler of a K4 might get hotter than the paint on the shroud > of a T1; and, over time, that might darken the paint. > > But if that's going to make a marked difference in color, why > wouldn't the temperature difference between the cab and the boiler or > between the boiler and the tender show up as a color difference? > > Or am I missing something? > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 10:39:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B pricing --part1_12d.1a6cce80.2afa919b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lew, When is the last time someone wanted your 2 cents worth?! :-) Evan --part1_12d.1a6cce80.2afa919b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lew,

   When is the last time someone wanted your 2 cents worth?!  :-)

Evan --part1_12d.1a6cce80.2afa919b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] TANGENT - Tortoise Switch Machines Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 09:04:52 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C285B6.9F600F50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Jerry, I agree with Roger that this application doesn't exactly apply to you. I had the same situation. I drilled an angled hole thru the frame member and then mounted the Tortoise on an angled block of wood. The wire had to be replaced with a longer one. That stiff piano wire may work. And the machine had to remain aligned in the same plane as the original would or you would have a strange arc on the wire as the machine did its thing. It may take some fooling around to get the proper range of motion from the wire, but you should get there. Elden - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C285B6.9F600F50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] TANGENT - Tortoise Switch Machines

Jerry,  I agree with Roger that this application = doesn't exactly apply to you.  I had the same situation.  I = drilled an angled hole thru the frame member and then mounted the = Tortoise on an angled block of wood.  The wire had to be replaced = with a longer one.  That stiff piano wire may work.  And the = machine had to remain aligned in the same plane as the original would = or you would have a strange arc on the wire as the machine did its = thing.  It may take some fooling around to get the proper range of = motion from the wire, but you should get there.

Elden

-

------_=_NextPart_001_01C285B6.9F600F50-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 12:28:29 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Another color question In a message dated 11/6/02 8:56:45 AM Central Standard Time, billd@gci-net.com writes: << Steam locomotive boilers NEVER showed their steel. It was covered with lagging and that was covered with a sheet steel jacket. >> I was hoping you guys would let me get by with that one, which I thought about after my original post :-). Not this group! Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 09:55:30 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Another color question, further thoughts > >> wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > >> > >> << Is this just a false recollection or were the T1's a lighter > >> green > >> than the run-of-the-mill steam? Or, were they usually cleaner? > >> To which "Bruce F. Smith" responded: > One word - Varnish > I too have noted the phenomenon in photographs...GG1s look a lot > greener > than steamers. At least in part, this is due to the number of > coats of > varnish applied over the color. The varnish adds its own tint and > protects > the color coat from weathering as fast. Thus reminded, I recall a treatise on artist's colors, primarily oil paints. The author made a point that the color and other aspects of the appearance of paints depends not just on the pigment, but also on the optical characteristics of the medium in which the pigment is dispersed. While not at issue in this, he cited examples of paintings in which formerly opaque coats of white lead had over a span of centuries become transperant, allowing patterns in the under painting to show though. His explanation was that the particles of white lead are actually tranperant and that the white color is due to a marked mis-match between the index of refraction of the particles and the linseed oil medium. Over time, the oil oxidizes, its index of refraction increases allowing light to enter and pass through the particles, rather than relecting at the oil/pigment interface. So, by applying varnish to a painted surface, it may be that subtle effects such as the foregoing allow light to better illuminate the green pigment, enhancing the green color. That is, more light actually gets to hit the green pigment and be altered by it. I suppose too that as time passed and the paint manufacturers came up with new improved formulations for the media, similar effects would alter the appearance of tried-and-true pigments. Perhaps the resident retired paint guy (Carl Izzo?) has some thoughts? Anyway, what had really been bothering me was the thought that maybe my memory had been playing tricks on me. Glad that that's not the case. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Another color question, further thoughts Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 19:42:25 +0000 I hadn't heard that G's were varnished previously. Bill Volkmer references "Miracle Polish" in his book on the electrics. I would bet the G's in passenger service went through the washer at Sunnyside on a regular basis and stayed cleaner because of it. I've seen some pictures of G's in freight service where they wouldn't get the washings that looked very washed out in regard to the color. > > >> wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > > >> > > >> << Is this just a false recollection or were the T1's a lighter > > >> green > > >> than the run-of-the-mill steam? Or, were they usually cleaner? > > >> > > > To which "Bruce F. Smith" responded: > > > One word - Varnish > > > I too have noted the phenomenon in photographs...GG1s look a lot > > greener > > than steamers. At least in part, this is due to the number of > > coats of > > varnish applied over the color. The varnish adds its own tint and > > protects > > the color coat from weathering as fast. > > Thus reminded, I recall a treatise on artist's colors, primarily oil > paints. The author made a point that the color and other aspects of > the appearance of paints depends not just on the pigment, but also on > the optical characteristics of the medium in which the pigment is > dispersed. > > While not at issue in this, he cited examples of paintings in which > formerly opaque coats of white lead had over a span of centuries > become transperant, allowing patterns in the under painting to show > though. His explanation was that the particles of white lead are > actually tranperant and that the white color is due to a marked > mis-match between the index of refraction of the particles and the > linseed oil medium. Over time, the oil oxidizes, its index of > refraction increases allowing light to enter and pass through the > particles, rather than relecting at the oil/pigment interface. > > So, by applying varnish to a painted surface, it may be that subtle > effects such as the foregoing allow light to better illuminate the > green pigment, enhancing the green color. That is, more light > actually gets to hit the green pigment and be altered by it. > > I suppose too that as time passed and the paint manufacturers came up > with new improved formulations for the media, similar effects would > alter the appearance of tried-and-true pigments. > > Perhaps the resident retired paint guy (Carl Izzo?) has some > thoughts? > > Anyway, what had really been bothering me was the thought that maybe > my memory had been playing tricks on me. Glad that that's not the case. > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now > http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: howdy@qnet.com Subject: [PRR] Phil Hastings Book Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 20:11:38 GMT Hello list, I hear that there is a Phil Hastings book on the Pennsy coming out. Any info on it? Howdy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 16:49:03 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Phil Hastings Book Howdy and others, Philip R. Hastings, "Portrait of the Pennsylvania Railroad" is advertised in the Dec 2002 "Trains" as available from Pine Tree Press on November 1, 2002. Doug Nelson, the author, asked me to review it right after the 2002 PRRT&HS annual meeting and before going to press. I was very impressed and think it's a terrific book. I will be reviewing it for the society. Here is part of my draft review comments. About Hastings - "Fortunately for us, to him the railroad was more than locomotives, cars and trains. He had an eye for composition that allowed him to capture the essence of the entire railroad, defining its character - the people, equipment, trains, structures, wayside and the landscape beyond. His genius photographic abilities have resulted in a truly outstanding documentation of American railroading." About Doug's editing - "He has put together some of the best of Phil Hastings' PRR photography, added excellent maps and arranged the photographs in a comprehensive and compelling manner." "This book is not only an excellent photograph source of the total PRR in action but the myriad of details, architecture, and landscape found along the right-of-way, beyond the trains themselves, also makes it a reference guide for the serious PRR modeler." Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 17:11:32 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B And where might we un-washed heathens get a copy of this fine document? It's not on the PRRT&HS web site --I already looked there! Jim McDaniel, Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 17:12:52 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Phil Hastings Book From: Jerry Britton On 11/6/02 3:11 PM, "howdy@qnet.com" wrote: > I hear that there is a Phil Hastings book on the > Pennsy coming out. Any info on it? It's due this month, authored by PRRT&HS member Doug Nelson. Merchandise Service has been advertising it for months! You can place orders online at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ms_ar.html . DISCLAIMER: I AM affiliated with Merchandise Service. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 17:51:26 -0500 Bruce et al: In 1955 I saw several R50s pass through Lancaster, PA wearing Futura lettering barely visible under a thick layer of grime. It sticks in my mind because I had never seen Futura lettering in person, on a car before. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 9:24 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B > >Gents; > > What document would guide me to this "1944 PRR practice" of car painting?? > >Earl Myers > > My primary source is the guide to passenger car lettering and painting > published by the PRRT&HS (sorry, I'm blanking on the title right now, since > I haven't painted a passenger car in a couple years!). It has an easy to > read chart that gives the schemes and appropriate dates. In addition, it > has several lettering diagrams and lots of photos from all eras. > > Pete asked > >Can I assume that by 1950 all the R50B's were in postwar paint? > > Good question - headend equipment didn't get the same atention as the rest > of the fleet and the express reefers traveled the country, so you might > have had some "dirty" prewar cars around...this does beg the question of > the difference in the schemes. The most significant differences will be > underbody/truck color (olive, with black appliances for "prewar", black for > "postwar") and roof (car cement, a brownish black for "prewar", black for > "postwar"). Lettering was buff long before WWII so the lettering shouldn't > matter. In 1944, equipment had a mix of the schemes with black roofs and > olive trucks. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B pricing Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 17:54:19 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C1_01C285BD.87EF1120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evan: Too long to remember. :-) Lew ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RDG2124@aol.com=20 To: AHARTPRR137@aol.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 10:39 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B pricing Lew, When is the last time someone wanted your 2 cents worth?! :-) Evan=20 ------=_NextPart_000_00C1_01C285BD.87EF1120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Evan:
 
Too long to remember.  = :-)
 
Lew
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com=20
To: AHARTPRR137@aol.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, November 06, = 2002 10:39=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers = R50B=20 pricing

Lew,

   When is the last time = someone=20 wanted your 2 cents worth?!  :-)

Evan = ------=_NextPart_000_00C1_01C285BD.87EF1120-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Another color question Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 18:06:09 -0500 Has anyone addressed the simplest answer for color differences between locomotives? Perhaps over the years they were painted with different paint chemistry/pigments and one had more "green" in than the others. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 12:28 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Another color question > In a message dated 11/6/02 8:56:45 AM Central Standard Time, > billd@gci-net.com writes: > > << Steam locomotive boilers NEVER showed their steel. It was > covered with lagging and that was covered with a sheet > steel jacket. >> > > I was hoping you guys would let me get by with that one, which I thought > about after my original post :-). Not this group! > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 18:20:23 EST Subject: [PRR] R50B Versions --part1_7c.30d43444.2afafdb7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walthers is listing a Pre-War, Post War and an REA/with Keystone car as limited editions. I believe the Post War is the one with just the car number and the small Keystone. What were the Pre-War and the REA cars like? I model 1950 so have already ordered the Pre-War models but am hesitating on the REA car a I don't know when it appeared. Was the post war seen by 1950? Many thanks, Evan Leisey --part1_7c.30d43444.2afafdb7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Walthers is listing a Pre-War, Post War and an REA/with Keystone car as limited editions.

   I believe the Post War is the one with just the car number and the small Keystone.  What were the Pre-War and the REA cars like?  I model 1950 so have already ordered the Pre-War models but am hesitating on the REA car a I don't know when it appeared.  Was the post war seen by 1950?

Many thanks,

Evan Leisey --part1_7c.30d43444.2afafdb7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 18:24:57 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS book "Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Car Painting Re the availability of the PRRT&HS' "Pennsylvania Railroad Passenger Car Painting and Lettering" book - There might be a few copies left. Some might be slightly damaged - contact PRRT&HS Director Ivan Frantz at musictrain@juno.com and see what the situation is. He is now taking care of all book sales. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 19:20:56 -0800 From: Subject: [PRR] BP20s Success Guys, Good fortune smiled upon me as I have ordered two pair of said critters from Trainstuff, with the assistance of you gentlemen and Dayna Warner. Now where can I find a pair of BP60's? Thanks everyone. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2002 21:57:10 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Phil Hastings Book From: "Douglas Nelson" Howdy and list: The book is being shipped from the printer within a few days. When looking through the Hastings negatives, I was surprised with the amount of Pennsy photos (about 900 negatives) taken between 1948 and 1957. The photos cover a range of PRR locations including Enola, the Middle and Pittsburgh Divisions, Ohio, Renovo, Shamokin Branch, Elmira Branch, Maryland (electric territory), Camden, and other spots. Many of the photos have not been previously published and of course it has never been presented as a collection. For those of you not familiar with Philip Hastings, he almost single handedly changed railroad photography away from the standard 3/4 views to a style of photography that included the entire railroad landscape, showing trains within their context. He also has detail studies of locomotive closeups and railroad workers. I just received several proof sheets and I was quite surprised with the beauty and quality of the photos. Until now, I have been looking at the photos only from negatives and small contact prints. To see them in large, high-quality reproduction is very impressive. The printing is in duo-tone and varnished which gives these black and white photos good depth. I'm seeing details that I never previously noticed. Most of the photos a quite large, including several full-bleed photos that fill the 9.5" x 11" pages. Let me know if you need additional info. Doug Nelson. ---------- >From: howdy@qnet.com >To: PRR-talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] Phil Hastings Book >Date: Wed, Nov 6, 2002, 12:11 PM > > Hello list, > I hear that there is a Phil Hastings book on the > Pennsy coming out. Any info on it? > Howdy > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 04:53:09 -0800 (PST) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] PRR NYC marine dept. --0-107818887-1036673589=:31363 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, is there a book or a Keystone article about the PRR NYC marine dept.? Thanks, Geoffrey --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD --0-107818887-1036673589=:31363 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Hi, is there a book or a Keystone article about the PRR NYC marine dept.?

Thanks, Geoffrey


Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD --0-107818887-1036673589=:31363-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 10:23:44 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Class EH15 (F3, F7) Helpers in N Scale From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" Anyone intersted in N scale F3's or F7's factory painted as PRR class EH15 helpers, please visit the following site and respond accordingly... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/pleasemake_eh15.ws4d Please respond even if you previously responded to similar requests. Things are looking up! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 10:28:25 -0500 Subject: [PRR] F Unit Spotting Features From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" I've been working with Greg Martin on "F Unit Spotting Features". Together we've created a page on Keystone Crossings addressing the various phases of F3's, F5's, and F7's that the Pennsy had. The URL is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/motiveops/spotting_f.ws4d I still have permissions requests pending for example photographs. Also, Greg is still working on the F7 phases. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 12:16:55 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR Class BS10 Baldwin VO1000's in N Scale From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" Anyone intersted in N scale Baldwin VO1000's factory painted as PRR class BS10, please visit the following site and respond accordingly... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/pleasemake_bs10.ws4d ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 13:31:12 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] L1s #520 at Strasburg The State Railroad Museum at Strasburg has a program in effect to repaint their rolling stock using accurate paint and lettering schemes, which agree with the time period depicted by the hardware details on the equipment. The effort is a worthy attempt to avoid anachronisms in the museum pieces. PRRT&HS member Joe Acri is serving as their volunteer consultant and spends a lot of time locating the correct paint and lettering information. Carl Izzo and I have been helping as needed, as have some folks at Dupont. The current subject is L1s #520 and its 110P75a tender. Joe looked up the Historical Record Card for #520 and found that it's last major shopping, where betterments were applied, was January 7, 1952 at Altoona. We assume that the present equipment on the locomotive corresponds to what it had after that date. Early 1952 is the time period the Museum wants to duplicate in painting and lettering the locomotive and tender. They would like to know what pilot beam markings were on the locomotive in 1952. >From MP229 Divsion Assignment Lists, we know that #520 had been assigned to the Pittsburgh Division on 7-1-49, 10-1-51 and 4-1-52. A photograph taken in Pitcairn on 9-11-48 shows #520 with the marking "CP" in 3" letters on the engineer's side of the pilot beam, which agrees with Pittsburgh Division assignment. However, the other end of the pilot beam is obscured. Another photograph taken in Pitcairn on 8-27-49 shows #520 with the marking "PGH" on the fireman's end of the pilot beam, again consistent with the Pittsburgh Division assignment. However, the enginehouse symbol below "PGH" is obscured by other things in the photo. If #520 was assigned to Pitcairn, there would be the symbol "PNE" under "PGH". However, it could have been assigned to East Altoona or other locations. On March 1, 1951 the lettering drawing for assignment symbols was changed, calling for 1 3/4" letters and simplifying the lettering. In this style, a locomotive assigned to the Pitcairn Engine House on the Pittsburgh Division would have "CP"......................."PNE" on the pilot beam. Does anyone on the List have a photograph of L1s #520 taken in 1952 or 1953 that shows the pilot beam markings? We need to know the date and location of the photo, the symbols shown, and the size of lettering used. (I understand that many Central Region engine houses continued to use the 3" size after the 3-1-51 drawing change. Typically, the letter accompanying a lettering change instructed the shops to continue to use the old stencils until they were worn out. So, changes didn't necessarily occur instantaneously on the dates shown on the drawings.) Thanks, Bob Johnson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: [PRR] L1s #520 at Strasburg Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 13:31:12 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C28661.F041F7C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The State Railroad Museum at Strasburg has a program in effect to = repaint their rolling stock using accurate paint and lettering schemes, = which agree with the time period depicted by the hardware details on the = equipment. The effort is a worthy attempt to avoid anachronisms in the = museum pieces. PRRT&HS member Joe Acri is serving as their volunteer consultant and = spends a lot of time locating the correct paint and lettering = information. Carl Izzo and I have been helping as needed, as have some = folks at Dupont. The current subject is L1s #520 and its 110P75a tender. Joe looked up = the Historical Record Card for #520 and found that it's last major = shopping, where betterments were applied, was January 7, 1952 at = Altoona. We assume that the present equipment on the locomotive = corresponds to what it had after that date. Early 1952 is the time = period the Museum wants to duplicate in painting and lettering the = locomotive and tender. They would like to know what pilot beam markings = were on the locomotive in 1952. >From MP229 Divsion Assignment Lists, we know that #520 had been assigned = to the Pittsburgh Division on 7-1-49, 10-1-51 and 4-1-52. A photograph = taken in Pitcairn on 9-11-48 shows #520 with the marking "CP" in 3" = letters on the engineer's side of the pilot beam, which agrees with = Pittsburgh Division assignment. However, the other end of the pilot = beam is obscured. Another photograph taken in Pitcairn on 8-27-49 shows = #520 with the marking "PGH" on the fireman's end of the pilot beam, = again consistent with the Pittsburgh Division assignment. However, the = enginehouse symbol below "PGH" is obscured by other things in the photo. = If #520 was assigned to Pitcairn, there would be the symbol "PNE" under = "PGH". However, it could have been assigned to East Altoona or other = locations. On March 1, 1951 the lettering drawing for assignment symbols was = changed, calling for 1 3/4" letters and simplifying the lettering. In = this style, a locomotive assigned to the Pitcairn Engine House on the = Pittsburgh Division would have "CP"......................."PNE" on the = pilot beam. Does anyone on the List have a photograph of L1s #520 taken in 1952 or = 1953 that shows the pilot beam markings? We need to know the date and = location of the photo, the symbols shown, and the size of lettering = used. (I understand that many Central Region engine houses continued to = use the 3" size after the 3-1-51 drawing change. Typically, the letter = accompanying a lettering change instructed the shops to continue to use = the old stencils until they were worn out. So, changes didn't = necessarily occur instantaneously on the dates shown on the drawings.) Thanks, Bob Johnson ------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C28661.F041F7C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
The State Railroad Museum at Strasburg = has a=20 program in effect to repaint their rolling stock using accurate paint = and=20 lettering schemes, which agree with the time period depicted by the = hardware=20 details on the equipment.  The effort is a worthy attempt to avoid=20 anachronisms in the museum pieces.
 
PRRT&HS member Joe Acri is serving = as their=20 volunteer consultant and spends a lot of time locating the correct paint = and=20 lettering information.  Carl Izzo and I have been helping as = needed, as=20 have some folks at Dupont.
 
The current subject is L1s #520 and its = 110P75a=20 tender.  Joe looked up the Historical Record Card for #520 and = found that=20 it's last major shopping, where betterments were applied, was January 7, = 1952 at=20 Altoona.  We assume that the present equipment on the = locomotive=20 corresponds to what it had after that date.  Early 1952 is the = time=20 period the Museum wants to duplicate in painting and lettering the = locomotive=20 and tender.  They would like to know what pilot beam markings were = on the=20 locomotive in 1952.
 
From MP229 Divsion Assignment Lists, we = know that=20 #520 had been assigned to the Pittsburgh Division on 7-1-49, 10-1-51 and = 4-1-52.  A photograph taken in Pitcairn on 9-11-48 shows #520 with = the=20 marking "CP" in 3" letters on the engineer's side of the pilot beam, = which=20 agrees with Pittsburgh Division assignment.  However, the other end = of the=20 pilot beam is obscured.  Another photograph taken in Pitcairn on = 8-27-49=20 shows #520 with the marking "PGH" on the fireman's end of the pilot = beam, again=20 consistent with the Pittsburgh Division assignment.  However, the=20 enginehouse symbol below "PGH" is obscured by other things in the = photo. =20 If #520 was assigned to Pitcairn, there would be the symbol "PNE" under=20 "PGH".  However, it could have been assigned to East Altoona or = other=20 locations.
 
On March 1, 1951 the lettering drawing = for=20 assignment symbols was changed, calling for 1 3/4" letters and = simplifying the=20 lettering.  In this style, a locomotive assigned to the Pitcairn = Engine=20 House on the Pittsburgh Division would have = "CP"......................."PNE" on=20 the pilot beam.
 
Does anyone on the List have a = photograph of L1s=20 #520 taken in 1952 or 1953 that shows the pilot beam markings?  We = need to=20 know the date and location of the photo, the symbols shown, and the size = of=20 lettering used.  (I understand that many Central Region engine = houses=20 continued to use the 3" size after the 3-1-51 drawing change.  = Typically,=20 the letter accompanying a lettering change instructed the shops to = continue to=20 use the old stencils until they were worn out.  So, changes didn't=20 necessarily occur instantaneously on the dates shown on the=20 drawings.)
 
Thanks,
Bob Johnson
------=_NextPart_000_0072_01C28661.F041F7C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] BelDel connection Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 19:06:30 +0000 Where exactly did the BelDel connect to the mainline? I assume it was in the Wilmington area. Thanks, norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 15:04:07 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] BelDel connection Norm, et al., The BelDel Branch connected with the ML at Trenton, NJ. The Delmarva Branch connected with the ML at Wilmington, DE. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 15:16:09 -0500 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] HL 944 (Totally Off Subject - Somewhere Around Jupiter's This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_05uW3CFlQc7yvQFKEAEYPg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi, List (and I *know* this is a PRR List) I was wandering around the web today in search of info & pix on GP9s for detailing purposes. I recently acquired a couple of GP-18 dummy engines I was going to backdate and detail to GP-9 for another project. Then I hit on a truly unique GP9, although non-PRR. It's at: http://donross.railspot.com/dr899.htm As I know that some of the "Listers" know a lot about other quasi-RRs - the PRR being the only real RR - I was wondering if any of you have ever seen this weird animal or know anything about "Habco Loran". I've already done a mite of searching, but can't find zip. Thanks in advance for any guidance you can give me - offline. Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." --Boundary_(ID_05uW3CFlQc7yvQFKEAEYPg) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Hi, List (and I *know* this is a PRR List)
 
I was wandering around the web today in search of info & pix on GP9s for detailing purposes.  I recently acquired a couple of GP-18 dummy engines I was going to backdate and detail to GP-9 for another project.
 
Then I hit on a truly unique GP9, although non-PRR.  It's at:
 
 
As I know that some of the "Listers" know a lot about other quasi-RRs - the PRR being the only real RR - I was wondering if any of you have ever seen this weird animal or know anything about "Habco Loran".
 
I've already done a mite of searching, but can't find zip.
 
Thanks in advance for any guidance you can give me - offline.
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." 
--Boundary_(ID_05uW3CFlQc7yvQFKEAEYPg)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Not the BelDel Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 20:23:29 +0000 I had a brain cramp that I hope was temporary. I meant the DelMarVA line. I assume it came in somewhere around Edgemoor Yard. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] HL 944 (Totally Off Subject - Somewhere Around Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:30:36 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C2867B.00896960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Zak, Those locomotives were used to power the Loram rail grinding train. = Don't know if the outfit still goes by that name, but the rail grinding = trains are still running. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Zak=20 To: prr-talk=20 Sent: Thursday, November 07, 2002 3:16 PM Subject: [PRR] HL 944 (Totally Off Subject - Somewhere Around = Jupiter's 5th Moon) Hi, List (and I *know* this is a PRR List) I was wandering around the web today in search of info & pix on GP9s = for detailing purposes. I recently acquired a couple of GP-18 dummy = engines I was going to backdate and detail to GP-9 for another project. Then I hit on a truly unique GP9, although non-PRR. It's at: http://donross.railspot.com/dr899.htm As I know that some of the "Listers" know a lot about other quasi-RRs = - the PRR being the only real RR - I was wondering if any of you have = ever seen this weird animal or know anything about "Habco Loran". I've already done a mite of searching, but can't find zip. Thanks in advance for any guidance you can give me - offline. Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail."=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C2867B.00896960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Zak,
 
Those locomotives were used to power the Loram rail = grinding=20 train. Don't know if the outfit still goes by that name, but the rail = grinding=20 trains are still running.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Zak
Sent: Thursday, November 07, = 2002 3:16=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] HL 944 (Totally = Off=20 Subject - Somewhere Around Jupiter's 5th Moon)

Hi, List (and I *know* this is a PRR = List)
 
I was wandering around the web today in search = of info=20 & pix on GP9s for detailing purposes.  I = recently acquired a=20 couple of GP-18 dummy engines I was going to backdate and detail to=20 GP-9 for another project.
 
Then I hit on a truly unique GP9, = although=20 non-PRR.  It's at:
 
http://donross.railspot.co= m/dr899.htm
 
As I know that some of the "Listers" know a = lot about=20 other quasi-RRs - the PRR being the only real RR - I was wondering if = any of=20 you have ever seen this weird animal or know anything about "Habco=20 Loran".
 
I've already done a mite of searching, but = can't find=20 zip.
 
Thanks in advance for any guidance you can = give me -=20 offline.
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all = outgoing=20 mail." 
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C2867B.00896960-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] Walthers R50B Info. Update Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 16:23:45 -0500 I learned from communications with Walthers personnel that the R50b trucks are scheduled to be available separately; probably early in 2004. This fits the timing for the Budd car trucks which are now just being released as separate items. With respect to prewar and post war variations - the prewar will have brown roof, dark olive trucks and gold lettering. The post war version will have black roof and trucks with buff lettering. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 16:37:19 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] HL 944 (Totally Off Subject - Somewhere Around --------------040801030603050708080500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Zak: 1) For a bunch more pictures of Habco Loran stuff, look at: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/mow18.html 2) The following 2 lines are from a for-sale listing at trainutz.com... * HABCO 994-7 ~ HABCO-Loram 994 GP9M. Similar style to CF7 but with home-built prow nose for visibility. Near fresh two-tone brown with yellow safety markings. SUP, sharp sunny view at KC. FINE L Coone 1987 $7 * HABCO 6891-8 ~ HABCO-Loram 6891 GP7M. Similar style to CF7 but with home-built prow nose for visibility. Near fresh two-tone brown with yellow safety markings. SUP, sharp sunny view at KC. X-FINE P Hunnell 1991 $8 3) This is a slight guess, but I think the company is... http://www.loram.com/ Hope that helps a little... Jeff Warner --------------040801030603050708080500 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Zak:

1)  For a bunch more pictures of Habco Loran stuff, look at:

    http://www.northeast.railfan.net/mow18.html

2)  The following 2 lines are from a for-sale listing at trainutz.com...
  • HABCO 994-7 ~ HABCO-Loram 994 GP9M. Similar style to CF7 but with home-built prow nose for visibility. Near fresh two-tone brown with yellow safety markings. SUP, sharp sunny view at KC. FINE L Coone 1987 $7

  • HABCO 6891-8 ~ HABCO-Loram 6891 GP7M. Similar style to CF7 but with home-built prow nose for visibility. Near fresh two-tone brown with yellow safety markings. SUP, sharp sunny view at KC. X-FINE P Hunnell 1991 $8
3)  This is a slight guess, but I think the company is...

http://www.loram.com/

Hope that helps a little...

Jeff Warner
--------------040801030603050708080500-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 17:43:43 -0500 Subject: [PRR] "Trackside on the Pennsylvania Railroad" From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" I only learned of this book about six weeks ago, but fortunately it was from one of my existing publisher/distributors, so it was quite easy to get quickly. This new book, "Trackside on the Pennsylvania Railroad" by Jeff Scherb, is from Highlands Station...the folks who did the Techmoeller hopper book. (With apologies to John for perhaps botching his name!) Anyway, the gist of it is, the author basically took the old Maintenance of Way plans book -- which exists as low quality blueprints -- and meticulously transferred them into a CAD system. The result is the same book with superb quality, accurate drawings of all kinds of standard PRR structures, signs, bridges, signals, etc. For $16.95, it's a "must have" for modelers! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 17:46:30 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" Disclaimer: I am a BLI dealer, but since I am "sold out", this constitutes a public service announcement!!! About six weeks ago BLI announced that their first product, the NYC J1e Hudson, would arrive to dealers in three shipments, beginning in October and ending in December. I'm just passing on the news that Merchandise Service received its first shipment today...so ends the speculation...they exist!!! We'll all look forward to hearing feedback from those who purchased these units as BLI promises an extensive line of PRR locos. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:49:20 -0500 I received a portion of my Hudson shipments also and had the opportunity to put one through its paces in a layout setting. The engine does not have plated wheels which helps in its pulling power. The Hudson was able to pull 27 freight cars with Kadee trucks up a curving 2% grade with 38" radius without slipping. As a comparison, my Westside M1a with added weight in the boiler can only manage 22 cars up this grade. We had trouble avoiding jack-rabbit starts. Perhaps this problem will go away with break-in. Principal layout control is Aristo-Craft wireless and with their built-in delay circuitry (even on linear DC) we were unable to get the bell and whistle to function. We switched to a conventional MRC pack and had no trouble activating the bell and whistle. Sound quality is exellent and being able to hear the engine "panting" at low voltage before it moves out is neat. The engine does have some geartrain growl which I guess you are not supposed to hear with sound but you can. Would be interested in hearing other's comments., particularly regarding low speed operation. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: Jerry @ Pennsyrr To: PRR-talk Date: Thursday, November 07, 2002 5:53 PM Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports >Disclaimer: I am a BLI dealer, but since I am "sold out", this constitutes a >public service announcement!!! > >About six weeks ago BLI announced that their first product, the NYC J1e >Hudson, would arrive to dealers in three shipments, beginning in October and >ending in December. > >I'm just passing on the news that Merchandise Service received its first >shipment today...so ends the speculation...they exist!!! > >We'll all look forward to hearing feedback from those who purchased these >units as BLI promises an extensive line of PRR locos. >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region > Modeling the PRR in September 1954 > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] F Unit Spotting Features Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:42:20 -0600 Jerry and Greg--This a good addition to Keystone Crossings. I would like to suggest that you add the various Stewart HO F3 and F7 models in the appropriate places under "Accurate Models". Certainly they are not accurate out of the box, but neither is the Genesis F7. The Stewarts require replacing the pilot with the Intermountain part, but that is certainly no more difficult than adding nose lift rings and the trainphone antenna. Also the number boards must be replaced, but filling the existing holes is only tedious, not difficult. Nothing against Highliners for any phase and the Intermountain F7; it's just that Stewart is good, too, and probably runs a little better, especially with the older Kato drive. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] "Trackside on the Pennsylvania Railroad" Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2002 18:37:38 -0600 Hi! I have it, seen it, and concur completely. This was the book offered a few weeks ago in a combo with the PRR RR Steel Open Hopper Cars. Fantastic books for the price. (considering today's dollars and the fact that I am retired). Both books get my whole-hearted approval. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" To: "PRR-talk" Sent: Thursday, 07 November, 2002 04:43 PM Subject: [PRR] "Trackside on the Pennsylvania Railroad" > I only learned of this book about six weeks ago, but fortunately it was from > one of my existing publisher/distributors, so it was quite easy to get > quickly. > > This new book, "Trackside on the Pennsylvania Railroad" by Jeff Scherb, is > from Highlands Station...the folks who did the Techmoeller hopper book. > (With apologies to John for perhaps botching his name!) > > Anyway, the gist of it is, the author basically took the old Maintenance of > Way plans book -- which exists as low quality blueprints -- and meticulously > transferred them into a CAD system. The result is the same book with superb > quality, accurate drawings of all kinds of standard PRR structures, signs, > bridges, signals, etc. > > For $16.95, it's a "must have" for modelers! > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region > Modeling the PRR in September 1954 > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 00:48:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] F Unit Spotting Features Steve, Just an oversight on my part. My deepest pardon, please...3^) Jerry, I will try to get and update out to this weekend. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 02:01:45 EST Subject: [PRR] 2 questions- 1 on P2K heritage engines and the other on BLI --part1_16c.16c6159f.2afcbb59_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First, I see there is a PRR in the 0-6-0 Heritage steam, but how about the 0-8-0?? Is it close to a PRR engines?? Second, Did I miss something?? What happened to the M1B! It seems that shipping date got pushed way back! It snow the summer of 2003! I dont know if I can wait that long! :) I might have to go to the GG1, but I need more steam! Thanks Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_16c.16c6159f.2afcbb59_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit First, I see there is a PRR in the 0-6-0 Heritage steam, but how about the 0-8-0?? Is it close to a PRR engines??

Second, Did I miss something?? What happened to the M1B!  It seems that shipping date got pushed way back! It snow the summer of 2003!  I dont know if I can wait that long! :)  I might have to go to the GG1, but I need more steam!
Thanks

Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
PRRT&HS  #7136
List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo
 --part1_16c.16c6159f.2afcbb59_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 06:13:42 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] 2 questions- 1 on P2K heritage engines and the other From: Jerry Britton > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3119580823_5144497 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 11/8/02 2:01 AM, "USMCnewdog25431@cs.com" wrote: > Second, Did I miss something?? What happened to the M1B! It seems that > shipping date got pushed way back! It snow the summer of 2003! I dont know if > I can wait that long! :) I might have to go to the GG1, but I need more > steam! > That date was changed several months ago. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- --B_3119580823_5144497 Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] 2 questions- 1 on P2K heritage engines and the other on BL= I On 11/8/02 2:01 AM, "USMCnewdog25431@cs.com"= <USMCnewdog25431@cs.com> wrote:

Second, Did I miss som= ething?? What happened to the M1B!  It seems that shipping date got pus= hed way back! It snow the summer of 2003!  I dont know if I can wait th= at long! :)  I might have to go to the GG1, but I need more steam!

That date was changed several months ago= .
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com  &= nbsp;  Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossi= ngs",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "= Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "M= S", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------
 --B_3119580823_5144497-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 09:15:20 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Info. Update >I learned from communications with Walthers personnel that the R50b >trucks are scheduled to be available separately; probably early in 2004. >This fits the timing for the Budd car trucks which are now just being >released as separate items. >With respect to prewar and post war variations - the prewar will have >brown roof, dark olive trucks and gold lettering. The post war version >will have black roof and trucks with buff lettering. >Frank Brua RATS!!! So no matter what I do, I will have to completely reletter the bodies (since I need buff lettering with a cove "P" and "S") and possibly repaint the trucks/underframe...guess I'll be ordering the undec version and getting out the paint and decals! Now what color to paint the trucks/underframes is an interesting question. In reviewing Bob Johnson's VERY detailed email on the subject dated 6 Jan 2002 it would appear that my June, 1944 R50b fleet ought to be as follows: Tuscan Red body, Car Cement (black) roof, Tuscan Red underframe and equipment below the body (Trucks?) (6/13/41)** Buff Lettering (7-9-1936) Block Type Lettering with the spacing of the numerals at 5 5/8" (6/13/41) or Futura lettering, with no black outline (4-17-1939) and an olive underframe/trucks labeled "RAILWAY EXPRESS AGENCY" **There is some conflict in Bob's email here about truck color. The original color was olive. He notes the chage in "equipment below the body" to Tuscan in June 1941, and then notes that on 9-7-1944, the truck color was changed from black to Truck Green enamel...I missed the change to black ! BTW, the trucks changed back to black on 5-25-1945. So what is the going color as of June 1944? I had been working under the assumprion that it was olive...is it Tuscan? Shoot, I'll bet nobody makes buff Futura decals, do they?!! (I'll bet Martin would have, if Sunshine had released the R50b...) Grumble, Grumble.... Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 10:51:52 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Info. Update In a message dated 11/8/02 9:20:27 AM Central Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << So what is the going color as of June 1944? I had been working under the assumprion that it was olive...is it Tuscan? >> Boy you cram a lot in one email ! :-) I wonder what the actual practice was when trucks were repainted, i.e., how many times a shop guy looked around for truck green enamel. In other words, how many wound up black in any year after the war started? However, does anyone know how the Walthers body is made? That is, one piece body shell with a separate underbody. Could you just buy an equal number of prewar and postwar and swap bodies and underframes. Keep the set you want and sell the others at swap meets to those less particular (not me). But seriously, folks. The R50Bs, like the X29 REA cars, were so heavily weathered it would seem to me that you could buy the postwar version and weather the underframe and trucks with grimy black. As someone on this or another list mentioned, the latter has a shade of green to it. So much so that when I run a string of those prewar Bachmann P70s, most club members assumed the olive was weathered black. I haven't studied your notes on the lettering yet, but we don't know yet what Walthers is using for the postwar font yet, anyway. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Info. Update Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 11:23:14 -0500 Bruce and List, By an odd coincidence, last night I was reviewing the 1/6/02 email, trying to verify all the statements with the original sources. I found, as you did, that the truck color was not defined at one point. There seems to have been an omission or accidental deletion from the 1/6/02 list. (Computers are great, but it's too easy to accidentally delete something and not even realize that it's gone.) The 1/6/02 email includes the following statement: "j - On 6-13-1941 the lettering style was changed back to Block Type and the spacing of the numerals was increased to 5 5/8". The underframe and equipment below the body were changed from Olive to Tuscan Red." This should have been two statements, which I'll call j1 and j2, to avoid confusion with later statements in the original list: j1 - On 6-13-1941 the lettering style was changed back to Block Type and the spacing of the numerals was increases to 5 5/8". j2 - On 9-29-1943 the trucks were changed from Olive to Black and the underframe and equipment below the body were changed from Olive to Tuscan Red. Sorry for the confusion. In general, when the PRR referred to underbody equipment, they did not include the trucks in that designation. Regarding the composition of a fleet of R50b cars (or any cars with a substantial quantity), what you would have seen at a given time was a mix of the current and prior paint and lettering schemes. The exact mix depends on how often the cars were repainted. Unfortunately, that information isn't available. Since head end cars got extremely dirty, many of us feel they weren't repainted all that often, so a mix of styles would be typical, with the older ones being more weathered, the older they were. I'm not sure if you could weather a model with gold lettering to look like buff, but it might be worth your while to try one. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" To: Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 10:15 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Info. Update > RATS!!! So no matter what I do, I will have to completely reletter the > bodies (since I need buff lettering with a cove "P" and "S") and possibly > repaint the trucks/underframe...guess I'll be ordering the undec version > and getting out the paint and decals! Now what color to paint the > trucks/underframes is an interesting question. In reviewing Bob Johnson's > VERY detailed email on the subject dated 6 Jan 2002 it would appear that my > June, 1944 R50b fleet ought to be as follows: > > Tuscan Red body, Car Cement (black) roof, Tuscan Red underframe and > equipment below the body (Trucks?) (6/13/41)** > Buff Lettering (7-9-1936) > Block Type Lettering with the spacing of the numerals at 5 5/8" (6/13/41) or > Futura lettering, with no black outline (4-17-1939) and an olive > underframe/trucks > labeled "RAILWAY EXPRESS AGENCY" > > **There is some conflict in Bob's email here about truck color. The > original color was olive. He notes the chage in "equipment below the body" > to Tuscan in June 1941, and then notes that on 9-7-1944, the truck color > was changed from black to Truck Green enamel...I missed the change to black > ! BTW, the trucks changed back to black on 5-25-1945. So what is the > going color as of June 1944? I had been working under the assumprion > that it was olive...is it Tuscan? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 14:08:14 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Info. Update Bob said: >j1 - On 6-13-1941 the lettering style was changed back to Block Type and the >spacing of the numerals was increases to 5 5/8". > >j2 - On 9-29-1943 the trucks were changed from Olive to Black and the >underframe and equipment below the body were changed from Olive to Tuscan >Red. thanks for clearing that up! >Regarding the composition of a fleet of R50b cars (or any cars with a >substantial quantity), what you would have seen at a given time was a mix of >the current and prior paint and lettering schemes. The exact mix depends on >how often the cars were repainted. Unfortunately, that information isn't >available. Since head end cars got extremely dirty, many of us feel they >weren't repainted all that often, so a mix of styles would be typical, with >the older ones being more weathered, the older they were. I'm not sure if >you could weather a model with gold lettering to look like buff, but it >might be worth your while to try one. In some ways, I might be more inclined to get the post war cars, over spray the trucks grimy or olive, and weather over the P and S...so if you see a fleet of R50's lettered "_ENN_YLVANIA"...you'll know its me ! For that matter, I could just reletter the P and S with a cove lettered set...I'll still get an undec to do the Futura lettered reefer. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Info. Update Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 16:53:24 -0500 Bruce et al: I did a lot of train watching as a kid along the main line between Lancaster and Harrisburg. There were frequent "mail" trains that were my favorite because they invariably had two motors up front (I love double headed electrics). The trains consisted of numerous X29, R50, B60b and some R60 and assorted mail cars. The trains were so dirty I thought the box cars were painted dark gray, quite a contrast with the shiny varnish on the head end. An older and wiser railfan, fortunately, corrected my ignorance. I was thinking that you could literally paint several (a majority, actually) R50s grimy black with black and dark gray streaks and completely cover the lettering, only wiping off the "dirt" in the area where the car number is located. You could save yourself a lot of work and be even more prototypical than having a lightly weathered, or, god forbid, a SHINY train. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" To: Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 3:08 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Info. Update > Bob said: > >j1 - On 6-13-1941 the lettering style was changed back to Block Type and the > >spacing of the numerals was increases to 5 5/8". > > > >j2 - On 9-29-1943 the trucks were changed from Olive to Black and the > >underframe and equipment below the body were changed from Olive to Tuscan > >Red. > > thanks for clearing that up! > > >Regarding the composition of a fleet of R50b cars (or any cars with a > >substantial quantity), what you would have seen at a given time was a mix of > >the current and prior paint and lettering schemes. The exact mix depends on > >how often the cars were repainted. Unfortunately, that information isn't > >available. Since head end cars got extremely dirty, many of us feel they > >weren't repainted all that often, so a mix of styles would be typical, with > >the older ones being more weathered, the older they were. I'm not sure if > >you could weather a model with gold lettering to look like buff, but it > >might be worth your while to try one. > > In some ways, I might be more inclined to get the post war cars, over spray > the trucks grimy or olive, and weather over the P and S...so if you see a > fleet of R50's lettered "_ENN_YLVANIA"...you'll know its me ! For that > matter, I could just reletter the P and S with a cove lettered set...I'll > still get an undec to do the Futura lettered reefer. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Info. Update Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 16:47:25 -0600 Hey All! And what, pray tell, is wrong with "A SHINY TRAIN"? Are you going to tell me that the mighty PRR "never" had a pristine train? If so, my bubble has burst; just like when I found out there's no Santa Claus nor Easter Bunny. Seriously, I do like a nice looking train, that may have a few weathered cars, but the majority can be clean - as run through the car-washing system. And wouldn't that mean that the trucks are dirty, the roofs?, but the sides are clean. How about some help from the listers about that? Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" To: ; "Bruce F. Smith" Sent: Friday, 08 November, 2002 03:53 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Info. Update > Bruce et al: > > I did a lot of train watching as a kid along the main line between Lancaster > and Harrisburg. There were frequent "mail" trains that were my favorite > because they invariably had two motors up front (I love double headed > electrics). The trains consisted of numerous X29, R50, B60b and some R60 > and assorted mail cars. The trains were so dirty I thought the box cars > were painted dark gray, quite a contrast with the shiny varnish on the head > end. An older and wiser railfan, fortunately, corrected my ignorance. > > I was thinking that you could literally paint several (a majority, actually) > R50s grimy black with black and dark gray streaks and completely cover the > lettering, only wiping off the "dirt" in the area where the car number is > located. You could save yourself a lot of work and be even more > prototypical than having a lightly weathered, or, god forbid, a SHINY train. > > Lew > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce F. Smith" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 3:08 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Info. Update > > > > Bob said: > > >j1 - On 6-13-1941 the lettering style was changed back to Block Type and > the > > >spacing of the numerals was increases to 5 5/8". > > > > > >j2 - On 9-29-1943 the trucks were changed from Olive to Black and the > > >underframe and equipment below the body were changed from Olive to Tuscan > > >Red. > > > > thanks for clearing that up! > > > > >Regarding the composition of a fleet of R50b cars (or any cars with a > > >substantial quantity), what you would have seen at a given time was a mix > of > > >the current and prior paint and lettering schemes. The exact mix depends > on > > >how often the cars were repainted. Unfortunately, that information isn't > > >available. Since head end cars got extremely dirty, many of us feel they > > >weren't repainted all that often, so a mix of styles would be typical, > with > > >the older ones being more weathered, the older they were. I'm not sure > if > > >you could weather a model with gold lettering to look like buff, but it > > >might be worth your while to try one. > > > > In some ways, I might be more inclined to get the post war cars, over > spray > > the trucks grimy or olive, and weather over the P and S...so if you see a > > fleet of R50's lettered "_ENN_YLVANIA"...you'll know its me ! For that > > matter, I could just reletter the P and S with a cove lettered set...I'll > > still get an undec to do the Futura lettered reefer. > > > > Happy Rails > > Bruce > > > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > > __ > > / \ > > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 17:51:57 EST Subject: [PRR] Hero Engineer This is on the AP right now. FYI. "Nov 8, 2002 Tragedy Possibly Averted in Tennessee After Engineer Spots Vandalized Train Track The Associated Press NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) - A railroad engineer stopped a sightseeing train after noticing tampered-with tracks that could have sent the train and its 400 passengers off a bridge, officials said. Nashville & Eastern Railroad engineer Brent Thompson was in the cabin of the fall-foliage excursion train when he spotted extra tie plates wedged against the rails, the company said. Officials said the plates - which are normally used to stabilize tracks - could have plunged the train into the river below. "It was like a ramp that was used to get the wheels off the rails," said Craig Wade, vice president and general manager of the rail company. "There's no doubt in our mind that it was a deliberate try to derail the train." No one has been arrested in the Oct. 26 incident in rural Smith County, about 45 miles east of Nashville. AP-ES-11-08-02 1656EST This story can be found at: http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAWIDKNA8D.html" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Info. Update Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 18:09:03 -0500 Morgan, PRR did wash its passenger cars, but NOT its express boxcars nor its express reefers. I distinctly recally wondering how the shop crews could tell which car was which, they were soooo dirty. I grew up in the New York area, and PRR's express car fleet was a dirty as the New York Subway's fleet. Of that crew, I actually had the chief of its car department tell me that the dirt was better than paint for preventing rust! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "PennsyNut" To: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" ; Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Info. Update > Hey All! > > And what, pray tell, is wrong with "A SHINY TRAIN"? > > Are you going to tell me that the mighty PRR "never" had a pristine train? > > If so, my bubble has burst; just like when I found out there's no Santa > Claus nor Easter Bunny. > > Seriously, I do like a nice looking train, that may have a few weathered > cars, but the majority can be clean - as run through the car-washing system. > And wouldn't that mean that the trucks are dirty, the roofs?, but the sides > are clean. > > How about some help from the listers about that? > > Morgan Bilbo > Ferroequinologist > PRRTHS #1204 and SPF > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" > To: ; "Bruce F. Smith" > Sent: Friday, 08 November, 2002 03:53 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Info. Update > > > > Bruce et al: > > > > I did a lot of train watching as a kid along the main line between > Lancaster > > and Harrisburg. There were frequent "mail" trains that were my favorite > > because they invariably had two motors up front (I love double headed > > electrics). The trains consisted of numerous X29, R50, B60b and some R60 > > and assorted mail cars. The trains were so dirty I thought the box cars > > were painted dark gray, quite a contrast with the shiny varnish on the > head > > end. An older and wiser railfan, fortunately, corrected my ignorance. > > > > I was thinking that you could literally paint several (a majority, > actually) > > R50s grimy black with black and dark gray streaks and completely cover the > > lettering, only wiping off the "dirt" in the area where the car number is > > located. You could save yourself a lot of work and be even more > > prototypical than having a lightly weathered, or, god forbid, a SHINY > train. > > > > Lew > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bruce F. Smith" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 3:08 PM > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Info. Update > > > > > > > Bob said: > > > >j1 - On 6-13-1941 the lettering style was changed back to Block Type > and > > the > > > >spacing of the numerals was increases to 5 5/8". > > > > > > > >j2 - On 9-29-1943 the trucks were changed from Olive to Black and the > > > >underframe and equipment below the body were changed from Olive to > Tuscan > > > >Red. > > > > > > thanks for clearing that up! > > > > > > >Regarding the composition of a fleet of R50b cars (or any cars with a > > > >substantial quantity), what you would have seen at a given time was a > mix > > of > > > >the current and prior paint and lettering schemes. The exact mix > depends > > on > > > >how often the cars were repainted. Unfortunately, that information > isn't > > > >available. Since head end cars got extremely dirty, many of us feel > they > > > >weren't repainted all that often, so a mix of styles would be typical, > > with > > > >the older ones being more weathered, the older they were. I'm not sure > > if > > > >you could weather a model with gold lettering to look like buff, but it > > > >might be worth your while to try one. > > > > > > In some ways, I might be more inclined to get the post war cars, over > > spray > > > the trucks grimy or olive, and weather over the P and S...so if you see > a > > > fleet of R50's lettered "_ENN_YLVANIA"...you'll know its me ! For > that > > > matter, I could just reletter the P and S with a cove lettered > set...I'll > > > still get an undec to do the Futura lettered reefer. > > > > > > Happy Rails > > > Bruce > > > > > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > > > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > > > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > > > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > > > > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > > Franklin > > > __ > > > / \ > > > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > > > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ > | > > > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | > ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > > > > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > > > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Info. Update Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 00:15:43 +0000 There is nothing at all wrong with a shiny train. A dirty train is,...well,...dirty! - HANK > Bruce et al: > > I did a lot of train watching as a kid along the main line between Lancaster > and Harrisburg. There were frequent "mail" trains that were my favorite > because they invariably had two motors up front (I love double headed > electrics). The trains consisted of numerous X29, R50, B60b and some R60 > and assorted mail cars. The trains were so dirty I thought the box cars > were painted dark gray, quite a contrast with the shiny varnish on the head > end. An older and wiser railfan, fortunately, corrected my ignorance. > > I was thinking that you could literally paint several (a majority, actually) > R50s grimy black with black and dark gray streaks and completely cover the > lettering, only wiping off the "dirt" in the area where the car number is > located. You could save yourself a lot of work and be even more > prototypical than having a lightly weathered, or, god forbid, a SHINY train. > > Lew > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce F. Smith" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 3:08 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Info. Update > > > > Bob said: > > >j1 - On 6-13-1941 the lettering style was changed back to Block Type and > the > > >spacing of the numerals was increases to 5 5/8". > > > > > >j2 - On 9-29-1943 the trucks were changed from Olive to Black and the > > >underframe and equipment below the body were changed from Olive to Tuscan > > >Red. > > > > thanks for clearing that up! > > > > >Regarding the composition of a fleet of R50b cars (or any cars with a > > >substantial quantity), what you would have seen at a given time was a mix > of > > >the current and prior paint and lettering schemes. The exact mix depends > on > > >how often the cars were repainted. Unfortunately, that information isn't > > >available. Since head end cars got extremely dirty, many of us feel they > > >weren't repainted all that often, so a mix of styles would be typical, > with > > >the older ones being more weathered, the older they were. I'm not sure > if > > >you could weather a model with gold lettering to look like buff, but it > > >might be worth your while to try one. > > > > In some ways, I might be more inclined to get the post war cars, over > spray > > the trucks grimy or olive, and weather over the P and S...so if you see a > > fleet of R50's lettered "_ENN_YLVANIA"...you'll know its me ! For that > > matter, I could just reletter the P and S with a cove lettered set...I'll > > still get an undec to do the Futura lettered reefer. > > > > Happy Rails > > Bruce > > > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > > __ > > / \ > > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Walthers R50B Info. Update Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 08:39:40 -0500 I offer as further evidence to support Lew, the back cover of the Spring 1998 Keystone. While the car pictured is a BM70nb, not an R50b, and it was shot in 1966, its color accurately matches my memory of most head end stuff ut here in the wild Lines-West. Can anyone suggest a paint mix to get the color shown? Fred Rea > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" > To: ; "Bruce F. Smith" > Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 4:53 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Info. Update > > > > Bruce et al: > > > > I did a lot of train watching as a kid along the main line between > Lancaster > > and Harrisburg. There were frequent "mail" trains that were my favorite > > because they invariably had two motors up front (I love double headed > > electrics). The trains consisted of numerous X29, R50, B60b and some R60 > > and assorted mail cars. The trains were so dirty I thought the box cars > > were painted dark gray, quite a contrast with the shiny varnish on the > head > > end. An older and wiser railfan, fortunately, corrected my ignorance. > > > > I was thinking that you could literally paint several (a majority, > actually) > > R50s grimy black with black and dark gray streaks and completely cover the > > lettering, only wiping off the "dirt" in the area where the car number is > > located. You could save yourself a lot of work and be even more > > prototypical than having a lightly weathered, or, god forbid, a SHINY > train. > > > > Lew > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Subject: [PRR] R50B colors for 1948 Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 08:46:36 -0500 To phrase if for the true PRR fans, which of the two Walthers color schemes would be the least innacurate for 1948? . I want mine to have the correct colors under the weathering to comply with the recent psotings on this list. Fred Rea ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 21:39:31 EST Subject: [PRR] BLI GG1 and looking for Rick Crumrine --part1_c.1d0ac94.2afdcf63_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Which GG1 would be the most versatile for a 1940's-1950's time period? Pennsy Brunswick Green / Gold Leaf 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering Pennsy Brunswick Green / 'Buff' Broad Stripe / 16" Roman Lettering Tuscan Red / Gold Leaf 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering Pennsy Brunswick Green / Gold Leaf 5-Stripe / Futura Lettering Silver / Broad Stripe Pennsy Brunswick Green / 'Buff' 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering Tuscan Red / 'Buff' 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering I wont be able to afford more than one, but I would like one that could pull a passenger train or a freight if possible. I am also looking for more information on Rick Crumrines Waynesburg and Washington RR in the 2003 Great Model Railroads. I am trying to plan my first layout, and this one seems about what I want :) Of course I have someone to help me! Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_c.1d0ac94.2afdcf63_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Which GG1 would be the most versatile for a 1940's-1950's time period? 

Pennsy Brunswick Green / Gold Leaf 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering
Pennsy Brunswick Green / 'Buff' Broad Stripe / 16" Roman Lettering
Tuscan Red / Gold Leaf 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering

Pennsy Brunswick Green / Gold Leaf 5-Stripe / Futura Lettering

Silver / Broad Stripe

Pennsy Brunswick Green / 'Buff' 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering

Tuscan Red / 'Buff' 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering

I wont be able to afford more than one, but I would like one that could pull a passenger train or a freight if possible.

I am also looking for more information on Rick Crumrines Waynesburg and Washington RR in the 2003 Great Model Railroads.  I am trying to plan my first layout, and this one seems about what I want :)  Of course I have someone to help me!

Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
PRRT&HS  #7136
List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo
 --part1_c.1d0ac94.2afdcf63_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 21:59:06 EST Subject: [PRR] R50b accuracy --part1_6a.28dd1788.2afdd3fa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Has Walthers posted any pictures of their PRR R50b cars? I haven't found anything on their website other than the description listed for the advanced reservations. From the comments on this list about the accuracy of the painting and lettering on the Walthers cars, it sounds as if it would be better to start with the undecorated car.(?) Anyone have definite info. on the accuracy of the Walthers cars? Many thanks, Evan Leisey --part1_6a.28dd1788.2afdd3fa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit   Has Walthers posted any pictures of their PRR R50b cars?   I haven't found anything on their website other than the description listed for the advanced reservations.

  From the comments on this list about the accuracy of the painting and lettering on the Walthers cars,  it sounds as if it would be better to start with the undecorated car.(?)

  Anyone have definite info. on the accuracy of the Walthers cars?

Many thanks,

Evan Leisey --part1_6a.28dd1788.2afdd3fa_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 22:27:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Info. Update --part1_f6.23fcc434.2afdda97_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One COULD have one "shiny", non-dirty head-end car and be prototypical. Just say the car was freshly shopped. Even head-end cars had to be shopped now and then. Chris Baker #1918 --part1_f6.23fcc434.2afdda97_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One COULD have one "shiny", non-dirty head-end car and be prototypical.  Just say the car was freshly shopped.  Even head-end cars had to be shopped now and then.

Chris Baker
#1918 --part1_f6.23fcc434.2afdda97_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI GG1 and looking for Rick Crumrine Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 23:14:59 -0500 I am just wondering if Mike's fancy signature is causing as much troulble on other folks' computers as it is on mine. I can always tell when he's sent a message to PRR-talk - it takes my computer better than a minute to process it! Gregg Mahlkov (note that I changed this to plain text) ----- Original Message ----- From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com To: PENNSYmodeler@yahoogroups.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 9:39 PM Subject: [PRR] BLI GG1 and looking for Rick Crumrine Which GG1 would be the most versatile for a 1940's-1950's time period? Pennsy Brunswick Green / Gold Leaf 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering Pennsy Brunswick Green / 'Buff' Broad Stripe / 16" Roman Lettering Tuscan Red / Gold Leaf 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering Pennsy Brunswick Green / Gold Leaf 5-Stripe / Futura Lettering Silver / Broad Stripe Pennsy Brunswick Green / 'Buff' 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering Tuscan Red / 'Buff' 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering I wont be able to afford more than one, but I would like one that could pull a passenger train or a freight if possible. I am also looking for more information on Rick Crumrines Waynesburg and Washington RR in the 2003 Great Model Railroads. I am trying to plan my first layout, and this one seems about what I want :) Of course I have someone to help me! Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 23:36:43 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Info. Update In a message dated 11/8/02 4:54:59 PM Central Standard Time, PennsyNut@hotmail.com writes: << Seriously, I do like a nice looking train, that may have a few weathered cars, but the majority can be clean - as run through the car-washing system. >> No argument on the first class cars, but the express cars didn't make it to the car washers and that, combined with the fact they were traveling at passenger speeds in all weather and surrounding soils meant that a car 10 years out of the paint shop probably had 10 years worth of dirt on it. So in this case the weathered cars are the majority, with an occasional car fresh from the shop thrown in. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 21:17:31 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR SD-45's John, list, Glad to help. Please bear in mind I'm only quoting from Pennsy Diesels; I'm not an expert on internal combustion (diesels are fun to watch, though). This is not going to be exhaustive, but here goes. Starting on page 249 of the Pennsy Diesels book: Perusing this list was fun; I thought a lot of the ex-PRR engines had gone to scrap after leaving Conrail service, and it's nice to read about them earning their keep elsewhere. Lots of the engines have been upgraded to Dash Two electrical standards, and in the case of the SD45s, it seems that most have been rebuilt with 16 cylinder engines. PRR Number Last CR # New Owner & # SD40 6041 6994 SD40-2 CSX 8883 SD40 6043 6985 SD40-2 NS (PRR) 3439 SD40 6044 6973 SD40-2 CSX 8874 SD40 6045 6971 SD40-2 CSX 8873 SD40 6047 6982 SD40-2 NS (PRR) 3437 SD40 6049 6995 SD40-2 CSX 8884 SD45 6178 6178 MRL 371 SD45 6187 6187 UP 2687 SD40-3 SD48 6188 6188 UP 2684 SD40-3 SD45 6192 6192 UP 2731 SD45 6193 6193 UP 2671 SD45 6196 6196 UP 2751 SD45 6198 6198 UP 2691 SD45 6202 6202 UP 2690 SD45 6203 6203 UP 2686 SD45 6206 6206 UP 2730 There are more UP (ex-SP, ex CNW, ex CR, ex PC, ex PRR) diesels with PRR heritage. If your budget allows, pick up the book or borrow it through interlibrary loan. I miss watching trains stateside (engines that look like real engines as opposed to toys). Doug --- Beth Caples wrote: > > I saw your post the other day on PRR Talk. It > especially got my interest > going when you mentioned that there are some PRR > SD45's rebuilt as > SD40-2's still going strong for UP. Well I just > happen to live near > the UP mainline in central Missouri. I would love > to photograph them. > Could you give me the number series for these ex-PRR > loco's. Any help > would be greatly appreciated! > > Thanks, John Caples __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: [PRR] Re: Dirty Cars Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 11:02:31 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C287DF.80366360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! I looked very carefully at those pictures on the back cover of Keystone = Vol 31 # 1 Spring 1998, (as referred to in a prior message - sorry I = don't keep them on my computer, and don't remember the exact author or = "subject line") and (don't laugh) my wife scrutinized them also. We = came to the conclusion that they are the same color - under the dirt. = And, I stand corrected to all for stating that I thought passenger cars = were cleaner because of "car-washers". And I am herewith stating "Thank = You!" to all who corrected me. Now, if the head-end cars are left to get dirty/dirtier than the = coaches, sleepers, lounge cars, etc., then what I and my wife are saying = is that those cars are painted the same color originally. And the = reason that BM70nb is so much darker than the 10-6 in the lower photo is = because of that lack of washing/cleaning. Heck - even the number on the = BM70nb is hard to read! Now, as to what paint mix. I have no guess, nor suggestions; other than = to say: Do what I do! Mix your paint in a small cup in small = quantities until you get the match to the photo of whatever prototype of = whatever model you are going to paint. And as I have said elsewhere on = these lists, paint a sample - take it outside in sunlight - compare it = to that photo - and when satisfied, go paint that model. And don't = worry about the exact formulation of the paint. The next time you paint = a model, repeat the procedure and don't worry about "exact formulas". = No two cars are the exact same FCC. Or PCC. Or DGLE. Or any other. All this is IMHO. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C287DF.80366360 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi!
 
I looked very carefully at those = pictures on=20 the back cover of Keystone Vol 31 # 1 Spring 1998, (as referred to in a = prior=20 message - sorry I don't keep them on my computer, and don't remember the = exact=20 author or "subject line") and (don't laugh) my wife scrutinized = them=20 also.  We came to the conclusion that they are the same color - = under the=20 dirt.  And, I stand corrected to all for stating that I thought = passenger=20 cars were cleaner because of "car-washers".  And I am herewith = stating=20 "Thank You!" to all who corrected me.
 
Now, if the head-end cars are = left to get=20 dirty/dirtier than the coaches, sleepers, lounge cars, etc., then what I = and my=20 wife are saying is that those cars are painted the same color = originally. =20 And the reason that BM70nb is so much darker than the 10-6 in the lower = photo is=20 because of that lack of washing/cleaning.  Heck - even the number = on the=20 BM70nb is hard to read!
 
Now, as to what paint mix.  = I have no=20 guess, nor suggestions; other than to say:  Do what I do!  Mix = your=20 paint in a small cup in small quantities until you get the match to the = photo of=20 whatever prototype of whatever model you are going to paint.  And = as I have=20 said elsewhere on these lists, paint a sample - take it outside in = sunlight -=20 compare it to that photo - and when satisfied, go paint that = model.  And=20 don't worry about the exact formulation of the paint.  The next = time you=20 paint a model, repeat the procedure and don't worry about "exact=20 formulas".  No two cars are the exact same FCC.  Or PCC.  = Or=20 DGLE.  Or any other.
 
All this is IMHO.
 
Morgan = Bilbo
Ferroequinologist
PRRTHS=20 #1204 and SPF
------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C287DF.80366360-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Dirty Cars Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 12:39:35 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00C6_01C287ED.0F9950A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Morgan et al: I concur with the diversity of color in PRR prototype cars. May I = suggest if you are trying to match a color found in a photograph or = book, that the color used in the original car is very unstable and not a = good source from which to copy. Besides aging pigments and dyes of the = car's paint, the original photo's color rendering characteristics of = that car were severely influenced by the position of the sun (time of = day), season of the year, type of cloud cover and the then current = weather conditions. Even the color recording characteristics of film = from batch number to batch number changes. Published photos in = magazines and color books, are also beset by similar problems from inks, = besides, they are now second or third generation color samples as are = color photographs. Rather than allow yourself to be driven crazy by all = these considerations, paint your car whatever color you find = satisfactory TO YOU, under the lighting conditions in which the car will = be displayed. If it is for your railroad, check it for color = "accuracy" under your train layout lighting. If you intend to do a lot = of photography, do a test shot on transparency (slide) film using the = lights or flash you normally use for your photography. If YOU are happy = with the result, go for it! =20 I gave up on color matching years ago when I discovered how unstable the = original paint pigments were to weathering and how different shops = painted different cars with subtly different colors calling them by the = same name. I now use a consistent color, such as Floquill's Tuscan Red, = for my passenger cars and paint 1/3 of them with color straight from the = bottle, 1/3 with a little bit of black mixed in and the remainder with = some white or light yellow mixed in. This gives my fleet of cars the = slight variations in colors I have noticed while train watching. With = some cars misted with weathered black or grimy black, the number of = color variations extant is now quite great, just like the real ones. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: PennsyNut=20 To: PRR-Talk=20 Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 12:02 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: Dirty Cars Hi! I looked very carefully at those pictures on the back cover of = Keystone Vol 31 # 1 Spring 1998, (as referred to in a prior message - = sorry I don't keep them on my computer, and don't remember the exact = author or "subject line") and (don't laugh) my wife scrutinized them = also. We came to the conclusion that they are the same color - under = the dirt. And, I stand corrected to all for stating that I thought = passenger cars were cleaner because of "car-washers". And I am herewith = stating "Thank You!" to all who corrected me. Now, if the head-end cars are left to get dirty/dirtier than the = coaches, sleepers, lounge cars, etc., then what I and my wife are saying = is that those cars are painted the same color originally. And the = reason that BM70nb is so much darker than the 10-6 in the lower photo is = because of that lack of washing/cleaning. Heck - even the number on the = BM70nb is hard to read! Now, as to what paint mix. I have no guess, nor suggestions; other = than to say: Do what I do! Mix your paint in a small cup in small = quantities until you get the match to the photo of whatever prototype of = whatever model you are going to paint. And as I have said elsewhere on = these lists, paint a sample - take it outside in sunlight - compare it = to that photo - and when satisfied, go paint that model. And don't = worry about the exact formulation of the paint. The next time you paint = a model, repeat the procedure and don't worry about "exact formulas". = No two cars are the exact same FCC. Or PCC. Or DGLE. Or any other. All this is IMHO. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ------=_NextPart_000_00C6_01C287ED.0F9950A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Morgan et al:
 
I concur with the diversity of color in = PRR=20 prototype cars.  May I suggest if you are trying to match a color = found in=20 a photograph or book, that the color used in the original car is = very=20 unstable and not a good source from which to copy.  Besides aging = pigments=20 and dyes of the car's paint, the original photo's color rendering=20 characteristics of that car were severely influenced by the = position of the=20 sun (time of day), season of the year, type of cloud cover and the = then=20 current weather conditions.  Even the color recording = characteristics of=20 film from batch number to batch number changes.  Published photos = in=20 magazines and color books, are also beset by similar problems from inks, = besides, they are now second or third generation color samples as = are color=20 photographs.  Rather than allow yourself to be driven crazy by all = these=20 considerations, paint your car whatever color you find satisfactory = TO=20 YOU, under the lighting conditions in which the car will be=20 displayed.   If it is for your railroad, check it for=20 color "accuracy" under your train layout lighting.  If you = intend to=20 do a lot of photography, do a test shot on transparency (slide) film = using the=20 lights or flash you normally use for your photography.  If YOU are = happy=20 with the result, go for it! 
 
I gave up on color matching years ago = when I=20 discovered how unstable the original paint pigments were to weathering = and how=20 different shops painted different cars with subtly=20 different colors calling them by the same name.  I = now use a=20 consistent color, such as Floquill's Tuscan Red, for my passenger cars = and paint=20 1/3 of them with color straight from the bottle, 1/3 with a little = bit=20 of black mixed in and the remainder with some white or light yellow = mixed=20 in.  This gives my fleet of cars the slight variations in = colors I=20 have noticed while train watching.  With some cars misted with = weathered=20 black or grimy black, the number of color variations extant is now = quite=20 great, just like the real ones.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 PennsyNut
Sent: Saturday, November 09, = 2002 12:02=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Re: Dirty = Cars

Hi!
 
I looked very carefully at = those pictures=20 on the back cover of Keystone Vol 31 # 1 Spring 1998, (as referred to = in a=20 prior message - sorry I don't keep them on my computer, and don't = remember the=20 exact author or "subject line") and (don't laugh) my wife = scrutinized=20 them also.  We came to the conclusion that they are the same = color -=20 under the dirt.  And, I stand corrected to all for stating that I = thought=20 passenger cars were cleaner because of "car-washers".  And I am = herewith=20 stating "Thank You!" to all who corrected me.
 
Now, if the head-end cars are = left to get=20 dirty/dirtier than the coaches, sleepers, lounge cars, etc., then what = I and=20 my wife are saying is that those cars are painted the same color=20 originally.  And the reason that BM70nb is so much darker than = the 10-6=20 in the lower photo is because of that lack of washing/cleaning.  = Heck -=20 even the number on the BM70nb is hard to read!
 
Now, as to what paint = mix.  I have no=20 guess, nor suggestions; other than to say:  Do what I do!  = Mix your=20 paint in a small cup in small quantities until you get the match to = the photo=20 of whatever prototype of whatever model you are going to paint.  = And as I=20 have said elsewhere on these lists, paint a sample - take it outside = in=20 sunlight - compare it to that photo - and when satisfied, go paint = that=20 model.  And don't worry about the exact formulation of the = paint. =20 The next time you paint a model, repeat the procedure and don't worry = about=20 "exact formulas".  No two cars are the exact same FCC.  Or=20 PCC.  Or DGLE.  Or any other.
 
All this is IMHO.
 
Morgan=20 Bilbo
Ferroequinologist
PRRTHS #1204 and=20 SPF
------=_NextPart_000_00C6_01C287ED.0F9950A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI GG1 and looking for Rick Crumrine Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 12:42:08 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00E4_01C287ED.6AE84100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I vote for the Pennsy Brunswick Green / 'Buff' 5-Stripe / Clarendon = Lettering for this time period as being the most common or versatile. Lew Matt ----- Original Message -----=20 From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com=20 To: PENNSYmodeler@yahoogroups.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 9:39 PM Subject: [PRR] BLI GG1 and looking for Rick Crumrine Which GG1 would be the most versatile for a 1940's-1950's time period? = =20 Pennsy Brunswick Green / Gold Leaf 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering=20 Pennsy Brunswick Green / 'Buff' Broad Stripe / 16" Roman Lettering=20 Tuscan Red / Gold Leaf 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering=20 Pennsy Brunswick Green / Gold Leaf 5-Stripe / Futura Lettering=20 Silver / Broad Stripe=20 Pennsy Brunswick Green / 'Buff' 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering=20 Tuscan Red / 'Buff' 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering=20 I wont be able to afford more than one, but I would like one that = could pull a passenger train or a freight if possible. I am also looking for more information on Rick Crumrines Waynesburg = and Washington RR in the 2003 Great Model Railroads. I am trying to = plan my first layout, and this one seems about what I want :) Of course = I have someone to help me! Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo ------=_NextPart_000_00E4_01C287ED.6AE84100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I vote for the Pennsy Brunswick=20 Green / 'Buff' 5-Stripe / Clarendon Lettering for this time period as being the most common or=20 versatile.
 
Lew Matt
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 USMCnewdog25431@cs.com =
To: PENNSYmodeler@yahoogroups.c= om=20 ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Sent: Friday, November 08, 2002 = 9:39=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] BLI GG1 and = looking for=20 Rick Crumrine


Which GG1 would be the most versatile for a=20 1940's-1950's time period? 

Pennsy Brunswick Green / Gold Leaf 5-Stripe / = Clarendon=20 Lettering
Pennsy Brunswick Green / 'Buff' Broad Stripe / = 16" Roman=20 Lettering
Tuscan Red / Gold Leaf 5-Stripe / Clarendon=20 Lettering =

Pennsy Brunswick Green / Gold Leaf 5-Stripe / = Futura=20 Lettering =

Silver / Broad Stripe

Pennsy Brunswick Green / 'Buff' 5-Stripe / = Clarendon=20 Lettering =

Tuscan Red / 'Buff' 5-Stripe / Clarendon=20 Lettering

I wont be = able to afford=20 more than one, but I would like one that could pull a passenger train = or a=20 freight if possible.

I am also looking for more information on = Rick=20 Crumrines Waynesburg and Washington RR in the 2003 Great Model=20 Railroads.  I am trying to plan my first layout, and this one = seems about=20 what I want :)  Of course I have someone to help = me!

Mike=20 Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the=20 Transition period
PRRT&HS  #7136
List = Owner of=20 the Transition RR Modelers Group on=20 Yahoo
 ------=_NextPart_000_00E4_01C287ED.6AE84100-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James Taverna" Subject: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 17:25:47 -0500 I was very disappointed with the December MR article as it made the layout seem like it was the last word in PRR modeling. This was frustrating when you saw that the lettering schemes were not consistent, ie, pre war loco lettering with large keytone lettered cars, post '48 passenger cars and diesels. If the writing had been more oriented to a casual representation of the PRR, it would have been easier to deal with. Not trying to be a nit picker but there seem to be much better representations of the PRR to use. Jim Taverna _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 18:13:05 -0500 At least you got your magazine. I subscribe to them but I have not received my "MR" or "Trains' for December yet. So, your post is as frustrating to me as the article must have been to you! :<) Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Taverna" To: Sent: Saturday, November 09, 2002 5:25 PM Subject: [PRR] December MR Article > > I was very disappointed with the December MR article as it made the layout > seem like it was the last word in PRR modeling. This was frustrating when > you saw that the lettering schemes were not consistent, ie, pre war loco > lettering with large keytone lettered cars, post '48 passenger cars and > diesels. If the writing had been more oriented to a casual representation of > the PRR, it would have been easier to deal with. > Not trying to be a nit picker but there seem to be much better > representations of the PRR to use. > Jim Taverna > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 19:36:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] BLI GG1/High Intakes Any word if the BLI GG1s will have high intakes as a modification for us 1960s PRR modelers? Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TJ LInk" Subject: [PRR] Trackside on the Pennsylvania Railroad Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 20:47:08 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C28831.2BAC91A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jerry, List Where can I get a copy of this Book? Matt Link PRR T&HS #7140 Subject: "Trackside on the Pennsylvania Railroad" From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2002 17:43:43 -0500 I only learned of this book about six weeks ago, but fortunately it was = from one of my existing publisher/distributors, so it was quite easy to get quickly. This new book, "Trackside on the Pennsylvania Railroad" by Jeff Scherb, = is from Highlands Station...the folks who did the Techmoeller hopper book. (With apologies to John for perhaps botching his name!) Anyway, the gist of it is, the author basically took the old Maintenance = of Way plans book -- which exists as low quality blueprints -- and = meticulously transferred them into a CAD system. The result is the same book with = superb quality, accurate drawings of all kinds of standard PRR structures, = signs, bridges, signals, etc. For $16.95, it's a "must have" for modelers! -------------------------------------------------------------------------= Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C28831.2BAC91A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jerry, List
    Where can I get a copy of this Book?
        Matt Link
        PRR T&HS  = #7140
 
 
 
 
Subject: "Trackside on the Pennsylvania Railroad"
From: "Jerry @ = Pennsyrr" <jerry@pennsyrr.com>
Date: = Thu, 07 Nov=20 2002 17:43:43 -0500

I only learned of this book about six weeks = ago, but=20 fortunately it was from
one of my existing publisher/distributors, so = it was=20 quite easy to get
quickly.

This new book, "Trackside on the=20 Pennsylvania Railroad" by Jeff Scherb, is
from Highlands = Station...the folks=20 who did the Techmoeller hopper book.
(With apologies to John for = perhaps=20 botching his name!)

Anyway, the gist of it is, the author = basically took=20 the old Maintenance of
Way plans book -- which exists as low quality=20 blueprints -- and meticulously
transferred them into a CAD system. = The result=20 is the same book with superb
quality, accurate drawings of all kinds = of=20 standard PRR structures, signs,
bridges, signals, etc.

For = $16.95,=20 it's a "must have" for=20 modelers!
------------------------------------------------------------= -------------
Jerry=20 Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region
 Modeling = the PRR=20 in September 1954
  http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C28831.2BAC91A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 18:24:42 -0800 From: Peter Weiglin Subject: [PRR] Colors and lighting Morgan Bilbo wrote: "Now, as to what paint mix. I have no guess, nor suggestions; other than to say: Do what I do! Mix your paint in a small cup in small quantities until you get the match to the photo of whatever prototype of whatever model you are going to paint. And as I have said elsewhere on these lists, paint a sample - take it outside in sunlight - compare it to that photo - and when satisfied, go paint that model. And don't worry about the exact formulation of the paint. The next time you paint a model, repeat the procedure and don't worry about "exact formulas". No two cars are the exact same FCC. Or PCC. Or DGLE. Or any other." I agree that there has perhaps been too much nitpicking about exact color shades; maybe a computerized spectrowhizkawhoopie is the only tool that will satisfy some folks. Remember, we each see colors slightly differently; and nature makes things that were the same color once different as time passes. But there is one caution. Morgan says, "take it outside in sunlight." Not a bad start. And then lighten the color a bit to compensate for the fact that your layout lighting is not as bright as sunlight. For example, it's layout lighting that can make Dark Green Locomotive Enamel seem black when it isn't. Peter Weiglin San Mateo CA (Mainline Modeler Magazine) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 21:40:12 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Colors and lighting Morgan Bilbo wrote - take it outside in sunlight - compare it to that photo - and when satisfied, go paint that model. Morgan's idea of mixing paints individually for each model is interesting, will certainly give a variety of colors. But if you're never going to view it outside, why take it outside and fiddle around with lightening it for unnatural light. Why not just get it to the right shade, hue (whatever) under your layout lighting and paint it? Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 10:58:22 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI GG1 and looking for Rick Crumrine On Fri, 8 Nov 2002, Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > I am just wondering if Mike's fancy signature is causing as much troulble on > other folks' computers as it is on mine. I can always tell when he's sent a > message to PRR-talk - it takes my computer better than a minute to process > it! SpamAssassin decided it was spam! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 23:59:27 -0500 Jim Taverna wrote: "I was very disappointed with the December MR article as it made the layout seem like it was the last word in PRR modeling. This was frustrating when you saw that the lettering schemes were not consistent, i.e., pre war loco lettering with large keystone lettered cars, post '48 passenger cars and diesels." When it comes to openly criticizing a layout, it's always a tough call, especially when you consider if your own work can stand up to public scrutiny. (By the way, I'm a frequent contributor to the Rensselaer Model Railroad Society's New England. Berkshire, and Western layout. The home layout will have to wait until I retire from the Navy.) Nobody likes to have their work criticized, especially something as labor and time intensive as a layout. That being said, if you write your own copy and set up photography for your own layout (especially one that depicts a well-known prototype), you are opening up your work for public approval and/or criticism, and whether or not you succeed or fail is in your own hands. Unfortunately, I share Jim's disappointment in the layout article. Some of you might disagree with the importance placed on maintaining a consistent timeframe with rolling stock types and lettering schemes, but think of a layout as you would a period movie like "Saving Private Ryan." Even if you get the sets right, your work is diminished if you dress your actors in the wrong costume or miscast actors. (Let's face it - you're not going to hire Pauly Shore when you can get Tom Hanks.) Sadly, that's the problem with this layout article. The layout's scenery does a decent job of capturing the "look" of the Middle Division, but mixing up rolling stock periods really subtracts from the article - you see it on the splash page with the K4s with pre-war striping combined with post-war passenger cars and a CNJ "Coast Guard" boxcar in the background, and errors in some of the other photos don't help the case. Bottom line - do your homework before doing a layout feature! "Not trying to be a nit picker but there seem to be much better representations of the PRR to use." Jim's got a good point - how about a layout feature in print for some of the good Pennsy layouts out there that haven't been publicized yet? We've got some listmembers with some great concepts that beg for a layout feature once they get far enough along for pictures - Jerry Britton and Rick Tipton come to mind, especially since they're working on locations on the system that haven't been featured in a layout article yet. I like the Middle and the Curve as much as the next member on this list, but wouldn't you guys want to see other Pennsy layouts besides Horseshoe Curve for a change? (Ken McCorry is an exception, of course.) Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Colors and lighting Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 23:25:05 -0600 Absolutely no disagreement from me. I use the sun because I have no layout. When taking a model to a club or wherever to operate, the fact that it looks black does not bother me. DGLE does look black 95% of the time. That "green" tinge is just that - "a tinge". So lightening it a bit is fine. And as many have said elsewhere "You are the final Judge", so don't let anyone tell you what's right and wrong. One other thing, Peter, layout lighting is also very different - incandescent versus fluorescent for one thing. So you are right - after the sunlight test, take it inside to see if it still meets YOUR approval. YOU are the final judge, not the "onlookers" who may or may not be "nitpickers" or what's that word? "spectrowhizkawhoopie"? WOW! Does Webster have that yet? LOL Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Weiglin" To: Sent: Saturday, 09 November, 2002 08:24 PM Subject: [PRR] Colors and lighting > I agree that there has perhaps been too much nitpicking about exact color > shades; maybe a computerized spectrowhizkawhoopie is the only tool that will > satisfy some folks. Remember, we each see colors slightly differently; and > nature makes things that were the same color once different as time passes. > > But there is one caution. Morgan says, "take it outside in sunlight." Not a bad > start. And then lighten the color a bit to compensate for the fact that your > layout lighting is not as bright as sunlight. For example, it's layout lighting > that can make Dark Green Locomotive Enamel seem black when it isn't. > > Peter Weiglin > San Mateo CA > (Mainline Modeler Magazine) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Colors and lighting Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 23:36:59 -0600 Absolutely no disagreement from me. I use the sun because I have no layout. When taking a model to a club or wherever to operate, the fact that it looks black does not bother me. DGLE does look black 95% of the time. That "green" tinge is just that - "a tinge". So lightening it a bit is fine. And as many have said elsewhere "You are the final Judge", so don't let anyone tell you what's right and wrong. One other thing, Peter, layout lighting is also very different - incandescent versus fluorescent for one thing. So you are right - after the sunlight test, take it inside to see if it still meets YOUR approval. YOU are the final judge, not the "onlookers" who may or may not be "nitpickers" or what's that word? "spectrowhizkawhoopie"? WOW! Does Webster have that yet? LOL And Al, I use the sun as a basis. My thought is that we have to have a base to judge things against. I suppose if one never takes his/her equipment to another layout to operate, then it makes no difference. But I operate from time to time on other's layouts, and each lighting is different (as mentioned above). And yes, each model is indeed different, unless you are painting a bunch at one time and want them all to have the same "base" color. Weathering each as you like. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF Pete said: "I agree that there has perhaps been too much nitpicking about exact color shades; maybe a computerized spectrowhizkawhoopie is the only tool that will satisfy some folks. Remember, we each see colors slightly differently; and nature makes things that were the same color once different as time passes. But there is one caution. Morgan says, "take it outside in sunlight." Not a bad start. And then lighten the color a bit to compensate for the fact that your layout lighting is not as bright as sunlight. For example, it's layout lighting that can make Dark Green Locomotive Enamel seem black when it isn't." Al said: "Morgan Bilbo wrote - take it outside in sunlight - compare it to that photo - and when satisfied, go paint that model. Morgan's idea of mixing paints individually for each model is interesting, will certainly give a variety of colors. But if you're never going to view it outside, why take it outside and fiddle around with lightening it for unnatural light. Why not just get it to the right shade, hue (whatever) under your layout lighting and paint it?" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 01:56:14 EST Subject: [PRR] Is there a place to check the archives for this list? --part1_169.16dcf7c2.2aff5d0e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, I am finally going to go buy the recently released Walthers gons in PRR with the LCL containers (coke). I am sure this as already been well discussed so is there a way to search the archives of this list? Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_169.16dcf7c2.2aff5d0e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
List,

I am finally going to go buy the recently released Walthers gons in PRR with the LCL containers (coke).  I am sure this as already been well discussed so is there a way to search the archives of this list?


Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
PRRT&HS  #7136
List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo
 --part1_169.16dcf7c2.2aff5d0e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 05:04:55 -0500 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] Numberboard Lighting for a GEEP This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_BOW+yWdtuJdvMRDUi4NaJQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi, List. I am working with N-scale, and am using a LifeLike GP-18. Only the front (short-nose) numberboards can be lit, as there is no bulb at the back. This isn't a problem, as it's a one-engine/cabin car setup. Although there is very small space to work with inside the front nose, I can probably "baffle" it enough to where the headlight and numberboards are illuminated. The problem arises from the fact that the numbers must be white against a black background. The LifeLike shell comes with translucent numberboards, and I have the white decals. How can I (easily) make a black backing for these numberboards and have the numbering show through? My eyes aren't what they were 50-years ago, so using a #11 with black construction paper is kinda out of the question. ;-) Thanks in advance for assistance. Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." --Boundary_(ID_BOW+yWdtuJdvMRDUi4NaJQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Hi, List.
 
I am working with N-scale, and am using a LifeLike GP-18.  Only the front (short-nose) numberboards can be lit, as there is no bulb at the back.  This isn't a problem, as it's a one-engine/cabin car setup.
 
Although there is very small space to work with inside the front nose, I can probably "baffle" it enough to where the headlight and numberboards are illuminated.
 
The problem arises from the fact that the numbers must be white against a black background.
 
The LifeLike shell comes with translucent numberboards, and I have the white decals.
 
How can I (easily) make a black backing for these numberboards and have the numbering show through?  My eyes aren't what they were 50-years ago, so using a #11 with black construction paper is kinda out of the question.  ;-)
 
Thanks in advance for assistance.
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail."
 
--Boundary_(ID_BOW+yWdtuJdvMRDUi4NaJQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don E. Anderson, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Is there a place to check the archives for this list? Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 06:33:00 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C28883.052B1CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mike, If you go to http://lists.dsop.com/prr/ and go halfway down the page there is a "Public: Archives" hyperlink that will take you to the archives search engine. Don -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 01:56 To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Is there a place to check the archives for this list? List, I am finally going to go buy the recently released Walthers gons in PRR with the LCL containers (coke). I am sure this as already been well discussed so is there a way to search the archives of this list? Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C28883.052B1CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike,
 
If you go to http://lists.dsop.com/prr/ a= nd go=20 halfway down the page there is a "Public: Archives" hyperlink that will = take you=20 to the archives search engine.
 
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of=20 USMCnewdog25431@cs.com
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002=20 01:56
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Is = there a=20 place to check the archives for this list?


List,

I am finally going to go buy the = recently=20 released Walthers gons in PRR with the LCL containers (coke).  I = am sure=20 this as already been well discussed so is there a way to search the = archives=20 of this list?


Mike = Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the=20 Transition period
PRRT&HS  #7136
List = Owner of=20 the Transition RR Modelers Group on=20 Yahoo
 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C28883.052B1CC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 09:27:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article I too was a bit disappointed with the article (at least I got my copy!) but I think the way these magazines work, is the editor is always looking for material; he prints the best stuff he can find. Would it have been better to have run another Tehachapi Look layout, if nobody's sent him anything better with a PRR theme? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 10:02:08 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trackside on the Pennsylvania Railroad From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3119767328_70600_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit on 11/9/02 8:47 PM, TJ LInk at chef@richnet.net wrote: Where can I get a copy of this Book? Matt Link http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ms_new.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ --MS_Mac_OE_3119767328_70600_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] Trackside on the Pennsylvania Railroad on 11/9/02 8:47 PM, TJ LInk at chef@richnet.net wrote:

   Where can I get a copy of this Book?
       Matt Link

http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ms_new.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region
Modeling the PRR in September 1954
 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/

--MS_Mac_OE_3119767328_70600_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Numberboard Lighting for a GEEP Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 10:28:52 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C288A3.F71B3F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Zak, There are a number of decal makers that have what you need. I have used = MicroScale's N scale PRR Hood Unit Decal set, which has the black = background numberboards with white numbers in it. The white is = translucent while the black is opaque and they look GOOD when applied to = a GP18, RS11, etc. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Zak=20 To: prr-talk=20 Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 5:04 AM Subject: [PRR] Numberboard Lighting for a GEEP Hi, List. I am working with N-scale, and am using a LifeLike GP-18. Only the = front (short-nose) numberboards can be lit, as there is no bulb at the = back. This isn't a problem, as it's a one-engine/cabin car setup. Although there is very small space to work with inside the front nose, = I can probably "baffle" it enough to where the headlight and = numberboards are illuminated. The problem arises from the fact that the numbers must be white = against a black background. The LifeLike shell comes with translucent numberboards, and I have the = white decals. How can I (easily) make a black backing for these numberboards and = have the numbering show through? My eyes aren't what they were 50-years = ago, so using a #11 with black construction paper is kinda out of the = question. ;-) Thanks in advance for assistance. Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C288A3.F71B3F40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Zak,
 
There are a number of decal makers that have what = you need. I=20 have used MicroScale's N scale PRR Hood Unit Decal set, which has the = black=20 background numberboards with white numbers in it. The white is = translucent=20 while the black is opaque and they look GOOD when applied to a GP18, = RS11,=20 etc.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Zak
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 = 5:04=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] Numberboard = Lighting for a=20 GEEP

Hi, List.
 
I am working with N-scale, and am using a = LifeLike=20 GP-18.  Only the front (short-nose) numberboards can be lit, as = there is=20 no bulb at the back.  This isn't a problem, as it's a = one-engine/cabin=20 car setup.
 
Although there is very small space to work = with inside=20 the front nose, I can probably "baffle" it enough to where the = headlight and=20 numberboards are illuminated.
 
The problem arises from the fact that the = numbers must=20 be white against a black background.
 
The LifeLike shell comes with translucent = numberboards,=20 and I have the white decals.
 
How can I (easily) make a black backing for = these=20 numberboards and have the numbering show through?  My eyes aren't = what=20 they were 50-years ago, so using a #11 with black construction paper = is kinda=20 out of the question.  ;-)
 
Thanks in advance for assistance.
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all = outgoing=20 mail."
 
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C288A3.F71B3F40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S HOBBIES" Subject: Re: [PRR] Numberboard Lighting for a GEEP Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 10:35:10 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C287DB.ADC435E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For Bug Boards, try the Micro Scale 87205 for HO or 60205 for N. You = get a whole sheet of the white numbers on the black background. We = have a picture of the HO version under MICRO SCALE on our web site.=20 Dennis dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 Voice 732-565-1005 FAX ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gregg Mahlkov=20 To: Zak ; prr-talk=20 Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 10:28 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Numberboard Lighting for a GEEP Zak, There are a number of decal makers that have what you need. I have = used MicroScale's N scale PRR Hood Unit Decal set, which has the black = background numberboards with white numbers in it. The white is = translucent while the black is opaque and they look GOOD when applied to = a GP18, RS11, etc. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Zak=20 To: prr-talk=20 Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 5:04 AM Subject: [PRR] Numberboard Lighting for a GEEP Hi, List. I am working with N-scale, and am using a LifeLike GP-18. Only the = front (short-nose) numberboards can be lit, as there is no bulb at the = back. This isn't a problem, as it's a one-engine/cabin car setup. Although there is very small space to work with inside the front = nose, I can probably "baffle" it enough to where the headlight and = numberboards are illuminated. The problem arises from the fact that the numbers must be white = against a black background. The LifeLike shell comes with translucent numberboards, and I have = the white decals. How can I (easily) make a black backing for these numberboards and = have the numbering show through? My eyes aren't what they were 50-years = ago, so using a #11 with black construction paper is kinda out of the = question. ;-) Thanks in advance for assistance. Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." ------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C287DB.ADC435E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
For Bug Boards, try the Micro Scale 87205 for HO or 60205 for = N.  You=20 get a whole sheet of the white numbers on the = black  background.=20  We have a picture of the HO version under MICRO SCALE on our web = site.=20
 
Dennis
dennis@onerrave.com
 
D & S HOBBIES
http://www.onerrave.com
90A = Jersey=20 Avenue
New Brunswick, NJ 08901
 
732-565-1555       =20 Voice
732-565-1005        = FAX
 

 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Gregg = Mahlkov=20
To: Zak ; prr-talk
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 = 10:28=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Numberboard = Lighting=20 for a GEEP

Zak,
 
There are a number of decal makers that have what = you need.=20 I have used MicroScale's N scale PRR Hood Unit Decal set, which has = the black=20 background numberboards with white numbers in it. The white is=20 translucent while the black is opaque and they look GOOD when applied = to a=20 GP18, RS11, etc.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Zak
Sent: Sunday, November 10, = 2002 5:04=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] Numberboard = Lighting for=20 a GEEP

Hi, List.
 
I am working with N-scale, and am using a = LifeLike=20 GP-18.  Only the front (short-nose) numberboards can be lit, as = there=20 is no bulb at the back.  This isn't a problem, as it's a=20 one-engine/cabin car setup.
 
Although there is very small space to work = with inside=20 the front nose, I can probably "baffle" it enough to where the = headlight and=20 numberboards are illuminated.
 
The problem arises from the fact that the = numbers must=20 be white against a black background.
 
The LifeLike shell comes with translucent=20 numberboards, and I have the white decals.
 
How can I (easily) make a black backing for = these=20 numberboards and have the numbering show through?  My eyes = aren't what=20 they were 50-years ago, so using a #11 with black construction paper = is=20 kinda out of the question.  ;-)
 
Thanks in advance for = assistance.
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all = outgoing=20 = mail."
 
------=_NextPart_000_0070_01C287DB.ADC435E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 10:36:12 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article --part1_89.20b93d0f.2affd6ec_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, Other than the equipment anachronisms, the Dec. 2002 MR arcticle showed a very nice layout. The photo of Tuscan's main street certainly captures the feel of a scene along the Middle Div.; how many of us recall the milk trucks and those white posts instead of guard rails along the highway (watch it! you'll really date yourself if you admit to the posts). Are we being a little too picky here, afterall, how many of us model say, 2:30 p.m. on Sunday July 23, 1948? I would rather an article with a Pennsy theme than one with a NYC Mohawk passing a CNJ "Coast Guard" car. Now if you'll excuse me, as it is Sunday morning, I must go to confessional to ask forgiveness for my sin --- putting NYC Mohawk into print on the PRR List. :-) Evan Leisey --part1_89.20b93d0f.2affd6ec_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List,

   Other than the equipment anachronisms,  the Dec. 2002 MR arcticle showed a very nice layout.  The photo of Tuscan's main street certainly captures the feel of a scene along the Middle Div.; how many of us recall the milk trucks and those white posts instead of guard rails along the highway (watch it!  you'll really date yourself if you admit to the posts).  Are we being a little too picky here, afterall,  how many of us model say, 2:30 p.m. on Sunday July 23, 1948?

   I would rather an article with a Pennsy theme than one with a NYC Mohawk passing a CNJ "Coast Guard" car.

   Now if you'll excuse me, as it is Sunday morning, I must go to confessional to ask forgiveness for my sin --- putting NYC Mohawk into print on the PRR List.  :-)

Evan Leisey --part1_89.20b93d0f.2affd6ec_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 10:56:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Numberboard Lighting for a GEEP --part1_a6.2f68199e.2affdb9a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Zak, For a black background with illuminated numerals try this. Lightly airbrush the numberboard lens with white paint (I like Floquil Reefer White 50/50 with solvent for this) then let it dry for a week. Make sure the coat of white is very light, misted, as too heavy a coat will block the light. Next apply dry transfer numeral, any color will do, and shoot a light coat of black paint over it. Again let it dry for several days. Once dried, firmly press Scotch tape over the board and pull it off at a right-angle to the board's face. This will lift the transfer leaving a white numeral. If the numerals don't completely lift off then let the piece warm in the sun and repeat the Scotch tape step. I work in HO scale where this method has repeatedly yielded excellent results. Also, I highly recommend the use of Poly Scale's Plastic Prep before any plastics painting project. The Prep assures a clean surface for the paint to adhere to and it does a remarkable job of eliminating the static that attracks those nasty pieces of dust. Wash the piece in dish detergent, let air-dry then dip it in the Prep and again let it air-dry. Evan Leisey --part1_a6.2f68199e.2affdb9a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Zak,

  For a black background with illuminated numerals try this.   Lightly airbrush the numberboard lens with white paint (I like Floquil Reefer White 50/50 with solvent for this) then let it dry for a week. Make sure the coat of white is very light, misted, as too heavy a coat will block the light.  Next apply dry transfer numeral, any color will do, and shoot a light coat of black paint over it.  Again let it dry for several days.  Once dried,  firmly press Scotch tape over the board and pull it off at a right-angle to the board's face.  This will lift the transfer leaving a white numeral.  If the numerals don't completely lift off then let the piece warm in the sun and repeat the Scotch tape step.

  I work in HO scale where this method has repeatedly yielded excellent results.  Also,  I highly recommend the use of Poly Scale's Plastic Prep before any plastics painting project.  The Prep assures a clean surface for the paint to adhere to and it does a remarkable job of eliminating the static that attracks those nasty pieces of dust.  Wash the piece in dish detergent, let air-dry then dip it in the Prep and again let it air-dry.   

Evan Leisey --part1_a6.2f68199e.2affdb9a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S HOBBIES" Subject: Re: [PRR] Numberboard Lighting for a GEEP Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 12:01:16 -0500 My last response was on the availability of the decals without thinking about the application.....Duh, sorry. The original Micro Scale Bug Board (which appeared in a large assortment on the 8721 PRR set) were WHITE numbers on a BLACK background. When Micro Scale finally offered the 87205 set which was JUST the bug boards, it was also WHITE numbers on a BLACK background. The decal film was translucent and the effect (IMHO) of applying the numbers to an Athearn loco with the clear plastic number boards looked great. Micro Scale then IMPROVED their number board decals where they are now CLEAR numbers with a BLACK background. In order to give the numbers their correct white color, we use a strip of WHITE TRIM FILM on the number board before the bug boards are applied. Again, the white is translucent and light from behind gives the correct number board effect - at least for my use. Dennis dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 Voice 732-565-1005 FAX ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 12:48:46 -0500 From: Ken Meyer Subject: [PRR] Union and B&P towers List: I'd like to know what colors Union Tower and B&P Tower (Baltimore) would have been painted during the period 1947-48? Any info would be greatly appreciated. Ken Meyer Bel Air, Maryland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ken Meyer Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 12:48:46 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Union and B&P towers List: I'd like to know what colors Union Tower and B&P Tower (Baltimore) would have been painted during the period 1947-48? Any info would be greatly appreciated. Ken Meyer Bel Air, Maryland "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Christophe CHOJNA" Subject: [PRR] PRR Engines 1954 Roster NY Region Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 20:59:49 +0100 Hi ! I'm a new comer in american railroads. I'm planing a layout based on the PRR New York Region, circa '54. I would like to know which engines (diesel and/or steam)were operating in the area. Can anybody help ? Thanks, C.C. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 01:49:29 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_ecQcn0wmnR4CLLdKkOhnLw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I found it odd that their were no photos of any trains at the apex of the curve. Every Horseshoe curve layout previously photographed shows trains at the apex. Also, I dont think the layout has the stone horseshoe with the flag. I thought that goes without saying. Trees did look good in the photo with the City of Altoona" stone sign. Overall, the effort put forth does have a Pennsy feel. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 10:36 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article List, Other than the equipment anachronisms, the Dec. 2002 MR arcticle showed a very nice layout. The photo of Tuscan's main street certainly captures the feel of a scene along the Middle Div.; how many of us recall the milk trucks and those white posts instead of guard rails along the highway (watch it! you'll really date yourself if you admit to the posts). Are we being a little too picky here, afterall, how many of us model say, 2:30 p.m. on Sunday July 23, 1948? I would rather an article with a Pennsy theme than one with a NYC Mohawk passing a CNJ "Coast Guard" car. Now if you'll excuse me, as it is Sunday morning, I must go to confessional to ask forgiveness for my sin --- putting NYC Mohawk into print on the PRR List. :-) Evan Leisey --Boundary_(ID_ecQcn0wmnR4CLLdKkOhnLw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
I found it odd that their were no photos of any trains at the apex of the curve.  Every Horseshoe curve layout previously photographed shows trains at the apex.  Also, I dont think the layout has the stone horseshoe with the flag.  I thought that goes without saying.  Trees did look good in the photo with the City of Altoona" stone sign.  Overall, the effort put forth does have a Pennsy feel. 
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RDG2124@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 10:36 AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article

List,

   Other than the equipment anachronisms,  the Dec. 2002 MR arcticle showed a very nice layout.  The photo of Tuscan's main street certainly captures the feel of a scene along the Middle Div.; how many of us recall the milk trucks and those white posts instead of guard rails along the highway (watch it!  you'll really date yourself if you admit to the posts).  Are we being a little too picky here, afterall,  how many of us model say, 2:30 p.m. on Sunday July 23, 1948?

   I would rather an article with a Pennsy theme than one with a NYC Mohawk passing a CNJ "Coast Guard" car.

   Now if you'll excuse me, as it is Sunday morning, I must go to confessional to ask forgiveness for my sin --- putting NYC Mohawk into print on the PRR List.  :-)

Evan Leisey
--Boundary_(ID_ecQcn0wmnR4CLLdKkOhnLw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 01:58:43 EST Subject: [PRR] Milwaukee Trainfest photos N&W A, R50, 2dP5, 442, etc There was some interest on this list in the N&W A class from BLI, etc. Took photos today. I apologize in advance for not having time to set up website navigation and thumbnails and for the blurriness of a few photos where I wasn't able to brace camera for a steady closeup shot. But: There was a sample of the N&W A 2-6-6-4 hand built from tooled parts. It was nonoperating because a previous short had damaged circuitry. I can only say it has plenty of weight and BLI representative said it will pull 120 cars on level track (the production NYC J is purported to pull 60). BTW, in addition to other things, the J is stated to be more or less plug and play for a Seuthe smoke generator as well. Pictures: www.fleetofmodernism.com/aclass.jpg www.fleetofmodernism.com/aclassright.jpg www.fleetofmodernism.com/aclasscloseup.jpg www.fleetofmodernism.com/aclasstender.jpg Following are photos of Walthers R50. Tuscan is a little darker than the photos would indicate: www.fleetofmodernism.com/r50.jpg www.fleetofmodernism.com/r50side.jpg Closeup of 2DP5 truck. I can only say, wow! and double wow!: www.fleetofmodernism.com/2dp5.jpg My enthusiasm for the new smoothside 442 Pullman is a little dampened as they are starting with the prewar version. The C&NW sample being a prewar version with skirts removed postwar. Walthers representative said the postwar version depends on how well the prewar cars sell. See www.fleetofmodernism.com/442smooth.jpg However, though I didn't have any Sante Fe rivet counters around to help, the fluted side 442 looks to be a beautiful dead ringer for the Chief Indian Series prewar cars with skirts, used run-through on the Broadway up until the postwar Super Chief Imperial cars took over in the early to mid-50's. So much for the ECW kit laying in my to-do bin :-). See www.fleetofmodernism.com/442SanteFe.jpg Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 04:17:16 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] PRR engines on New York Division 1 March 1954 Christoper, list, I have a very faded copy of form MP229 from 1 March 1954. Pages 2-4 cover the steam, diesel, and electric engines operating on the New York Division as of that date. Steam classes E6s, G5s, H9s, H10s, K4s, L1s K4s engines were used primarily on the New York and Long Branch at this time. Electric classes B1, DD1, GG1, L6, O1a, O1c, R1 Diesel classes BS7 (Baldwin DS4-4-750 and S-8), AS10am (Alco RS-1), AS10as (Alco RS-1), AS10(Alco S2 and S4), AS10m (Alco S4), AS6(Alco S1 or S3), BS10 (Baldwin VO-1000), ES15m (EMD GP-7), ES12m (EMD SW7/SW9/SW1200), ES15ms (EMD GP-7), BS10a (Baldwin DS 4-4-1000), GS4 (GE 44 tonner) Builder's model info for the diesels taken from my copy of Pennsy Diesels. Rail motor cars 4658, 4660, 4666, 4668, and 4669 were also assigned to the New York Division. Doug --- Christophe CHOJNA wrote, in part: > > I'm planing a layout based on the PRR New York Region, circa '54. I would like to know which engines (diesel and/or steam)were operating in the area. > Can anybody help ? > Thanks, C.C. > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 08:37:02 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C2895D.81B3C000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The track plan is interesting but did you notice that the Curve = elevation is flat - 49" on each side? Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr To: RDG2124@aol.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com = Date: Monday, November 11, 2002 1:53 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article I found it odd that their were no photos of any trains at the apex of = the curve. Every Horseshoe curve layout previously photographed shows = trains at the apex. Also, I dont think the layout has the stone = horseshoe with the flag. I thought that goes without saying. Trees did = look good in the photo with the City of Altoona" stone sign. Overall, = the effort put forth does have a Pennsy feel. =20 -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of = RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 10:36 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article List, Other than the equipment anachronisms, the Dec. 2002 MR arcticle = showed a very nice layout. The photo of Tuscan's main street certainly = captures the feel of a scene along the Middle Div.; how many of us = recall the milk trucks and those white posts instead of guard rails = along the highway (watch it! you'll really date yourself if you admit = to the posts). Are we being a little too picky here, afterall, how = many of us model say, 2:30 p.m. on Sunday July 23, 1948? I would rather an article with a Pennsy theme than one with a NYC = Mohawk passing a CNJ "Coast Guard" car. Now if you'll excuse me, as it is Sunday morning, I must go to = confessional to ask forgiveness for my sin --- putting NYC Mohawk into = print on the PRR List. :-) Evan Leisey=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C2895D.81B3C000 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The track plan is interesting but did you notice = that the=20 Curve elevation is flat -
49" on each side?
Frank Brua
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr <gregvl@comcast.net>
To: = RDG2124@aol.com <RDG2124@aol.com>; PRR-Talk@dsop.com <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Monday, November 11, 2002 1:53 AM
Subject: RE: [PRR] = December MR=20 Article

I=20 found it odd that their were no photos of any trains at the apex of = the=20 curve.  Every Horseshoe curve layout previously photographed = shows trains=20 at the apex.  Also, I dont think the layout has the stone = horseshoe with=20 the flag.  I thought that goes without saying.  Trees did = look good=20 in the photo with the City of Altoona" stone sign.  Overall, the = effort=20 put forth does have a Pennsy feel. 
-----Original Message-----
From: = PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of=20 RDG2124@aol.com
Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 10:36=20 AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] = December MR=20 Article

List,

   = Other than=20 the equipment anachronisms,  the Dec. 2002 MR arcticle showed a = very=20 nice layout.  The photo of Tuscan's main street certainly = captures the=20 feel of a scene along the Middle Div.; how many of us recall the = milk trucks=20 and those white posts instead of guard rails along the highway = (watch=20 it!  you'll really date yourself if you admit to the = posts).  Are=20 we being a little too picky here, afterall,  how many of us = model say,=20 2:30 p.m. on Sunday July 23, 1948?

   I would = rather an=20 article with a Pennsy theme than one with a NYC Mohawk passing a CNJ = "Coast=20 Guard" car.

   Now if you'll excuse me, as it is = Sunday=20 morning, I must go to confessional to ask forgiveness for my sin --- = putting=20 NYC Mohawk into print on the PRR List.  :-)

Evan=20 Leisey
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C2895D.81B3C000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 08:41:01 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Notable Open Houses This Weekend From: Jerry Britton For those of you within a reasonable driving distance, I want to suggest a pair of open houses in north Delaware that are well worth a visit. Last year the "Boys and Their Toys Tour" hit both and everyone was really impressed. They are the layouts of Charlie Grant in Wilmington and Charlie Carangie in Newark. They are about 1/2 hour apart. Both are HO. Both model the same basic territory of Washington, DC to Wilmington, DE, plus the Port Road. Both excel in different areas. Charlie Grant's features a working hump yard...yes, "working" hump yard. Charlie Carangie's features an excellent Harrisburg station in a marvelous snow scene! So take a drive out and visit these layouts...you'll be glad you did! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 08:03:54 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI GG1/High Intakes > Any word if the BLI GG1s will have high intakes as a modification >for us 1960s PRR modelers? > > Dave Hopson I've had a couple emails in to them with that question for several weeks now...so far, no answer, but I doubt that they will do it as that high intakes varied greatly in intitial aopplication and were only applied to DGLE/single stripe scheme units. One suggestion would be to make an aftermarket part for the vent, however, you also need to obliterate the lower vent (at least in the case of the large high mount vents)...that could be a challenge on a cast metal body! I certainly wouldn't expect BLI to tool multiple different bodies given the price of the loco (and the track record..ie, no M1s) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 09:08:41 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article One thing I noticed from the layout schematic, there is no grade on the Horseshoe! Boy would that have simplified things for the Pennsy! Now, if I could only flatten my own troublesome helixes! -- John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 09:11:58 -0500 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] Numberboards for GEEPs This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_mRlBHFMY7FpSGbnjWdIsvw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT To all that sent ideas, suggestions and product info on my numberboard query, I give sincere thanks. It never fails to surprise me of how many ways there are to skin a cat...or in this case, a GEEP. Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." --Boundary_(ID_mRlBHFMY7FpSGbnjWdIsvw) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
To all that sent ideas, suggestions and product info on my numberboard query, I give sincere thanks.
 
It never fails to surprise me of how many ways there are to skin a cat...or in this case, a GEEP.
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail."
 
--Boundary_(ID_mRlBHFMY7FpSGbnjWdIsvw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 08:55:51 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI GG1 and looking for Rick Crumrine Mike asks: > Which GG1 would be the most versatile for a 1940's-1950's time period? I wont be able to afford more than one, but I would like one that could pull a passenger train or a freight if possible. Mike, The short answer is DGLE/5 stripe, gold for 1941-52+ (BLI #623). Beyond 1952, DGLE/5 stripe buff (BLI #629), and then in 1955 the DGLE/1 stripe (BLI #624). If you want power that is accurate for both freight and passenger, its a bit challenging as the number series above 4859 had 100 mph gearing and was more commonly used for passenger power...this is also likely to be the version BLI produces (drop coupler) as it fits their color schemes (see below)...unfortunatley for the PRR modeler, it means that unless we get lucky with Roco, we will have 3 different models, and not one of them good for GG1s 4801-4858!! Back in '52 the repaints happened pretty quickly so you would not see gold stripes into the late 1950's, however, some of the buff 5 stripers lasted a LONG time. 4801 was the last unit in this scheme in 1974 (it was modified w/toe rails in '67). Unfortunately, the BLI GG1 is unlikely to suit as I noted above since I'm guessing it has a drop coupler pilot. 4907 was photographed in DGLE/buff 5 stripe scheme in 1959 (after having been Tuscan/1 stripe for a while...there's a puzzle...how did it get a 5 stripe scheme after the intro of the 1 stripe scheme?). The Tuscan variants began in March 1952 with 4908-4913, perhaps with gold lettering and stripes. This scheme, if it existed, would have lasted around 6 to 9 months, and would only have been seen on the Senator and Congo. These motors would most likely have gotten buff stripes/lettering in late 1952. 4856, 4857, 4876 & 4929 were painted Tuscan/buff 5 stripe in 1953. Note that NJT #4877 received this scheme while still in service, but never wore it as a PRR engine! 4907 and 4916 were painted Tuscan red with an 8" wide yellow band and 16" Roman lettering in 1955. It would be EXTREMELY unlikely to see these motors on a freight. 4866, 4872, & 4880 were painted in the Silver scheme in 1955, but were repainted to DGLE within a year or two. It would have been VERY unusual to see these motors on a freight. I hope this helps! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:09:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Milwaukee Trainfest photos N&W A, R50, 2dP5, 442, etc Bob, Thanks for providing some sneek peaks of the new BL and Walthers stuff. Looks promising. The trucks do look good...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 11:19:50 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Milwaukee Trainfest photos N&W A, R50, 2dP5, 442, etc Does anyone know if the rear engine is articulated under the boiler like the front engine? I find this to be a disturbing feature in recently released HO articulates. GV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bobspf@aol.com Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 1:59 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Milwaukee Trainfest photos N&W A, R50, 2dP5, 442, etc There was some interest on this list in the N&W A class from BLI, etc. Took photos today. I apologize in advance for not having time to set up website navigation and thumbnails and for the blurriness of a few photos where I wasn't able to brace camera for a steady closeup shot. But: There was a sample of the N&W A 2-6-6-4 hand built from tooled parts. It was nonoperating because a previous short had damaged circuitry. I can only say it has plenty of weight and BLI representative said it will pull 120 cars on level track (the production NYC J is purported to pull 60). BTW, in addition to other things, the J is stated to be more or less plug and play for a Seuthe smoke generator as well. Pictures: www.fleetofmodernism.com/aclass.jpg www.fleetofmodernism.com/aclassright.jpg www.fleetofmodernism.com/aclasscloseup.jpg www.fleetofmodernism.com/aclasstender.jpg Following are photos of Walthers R50. Tuscan is a little darker than the photos would indicate: www.fleetofmodernism.com/r50.jpg www.fleetofmodernism.com/r50side.jpg Closeup of 2DP5 truck. I can only say, wow! and double wow!: www.fleetofmodernism.com/2dp5.jpg My enthusiasm for the new smoothside 442 Pullman is a little dampened as they are starting with the prewar version. The C&NW sample being a prewar version with skirts removed postwar. Walthers representative said the postwar version depends on how well the prewar cars sell. See www.fleetofmodernism.com/442smooth.jpg However, though I didn't have any Sante Fe rivet counters around to help, the fluted side 442 looks to be a beautiful dead ringer for the Chief Indian Series prewar cars with skirts, used run-through on the Broadway up until the postwar Super Chief Imperial cars took over in the early to mid-50's. So much for the ECW kit laying in my to-do bin :-). See www.fleetofmodernism.com/442SanteFe.jpg Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 10:38:41 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] Milwaukee Trainfest photos N&W A, R50, 2dP5, 442, etc >Does anyone know if the rear engine is articulated under the boiler like the >front engine? I find this to be a disturbing feature in recently released >HO articulates. > >GV It has to be, given the curves it will take (18"). Likewise they are advertising the T1 for 18" so it will be articulated like the Bowser version. The M1 and GG1 are also listed as having 18" min radius. Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:02:10 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article From: aurora7@juno.com Uh...I may be getting up to speak like a whiskey peddler at a revival meeting but... the only person this layout has to please is the modeler himself. I once saw a Horseshoe Curve model that included the natural rock formations taken from photographs along the curve. It was very impressive, and yes, I love to see any model scene that looks good enough to take the visitor back in time. Shouldn't the purpose of the particular guy's layout be to let him run Pennsy trains the way he remembers or wants to remember them? My Long Island Rail Road layout includes a Lines West tender on my H-10, and a pre-war K4 along with FM C-liners in 1963 paint. I know they don't "go together", but they go. Gives me great satisfaction. Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside a dog, it's too dark to read." - Groucho ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:14:08 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C289A5.BF0E9BD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The current issue has decided me that the "Railroader" is probably not = worth the effort any more! Though having spent two days trying to exhibit a layout in a hall that = felt like a sauna (28 centigrade) probably didn't improve my opinion! Patrick Grace www.prr.org.uk ------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C289A5.BF0E9BD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The current issue has decided me that = the=20 "Railroader" is probably not worth the effort any more!
Though having spent two days trying to = exhibit a=20 layout in a hall that felt like a sauna (28 centigrade) probably didn't = improve=20 my
opinion!
 
Patrick Grace
 
www.prr.org.uk
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0047_01C289A5.BF0E9BD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:27:43 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article From: Jerry Britton On 11/11/02 12:02 PM, aurora7@juno.com (aurora7@juno.com) wrote: > the only person this layout has to please is the modeler himself. > I once saw a Horseshoe Curve model that included the natural rock > formations taken from photographs along the curve. It was very > impressive, and yes, I love to see any model scene that looks good enough > to take the visitor back in time. Shouldn't the purpose of the > particular guy's layout be to let him run Pennsy trains the way he > remembers or wants to remember them? You're absolutely right. It was designed for him and all it needs to please is him. The tip off to the die-hards should have been the word "Brunswick" in the name of the layout. Then again how would it have sounded if it were named "The Tuscan and Dark Green Locomotive Enamel Railroad"!!! Here's my two cents... Everyone has a right to model what they want and to exercise modelers license. If you truly freelance, as the owner of the layout in question did, you invite criticism when you include an actual location and use the actual location's name. By having a curve and naming it Horseshoe Curve, you invite criticism. If he had made the same curve but called it Buff Curve, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Those who freelance, in my opinion, should stay away from real place names. A few years back MR did a layout series on the Middle Division. Yes, it captured some elements of the PRR, but not operations-wise. But it didn't include any real place names, so it was good. Bob Martin, close by in Emigsville PA, mimicks the PRR with his Central Pennsylvania Railroad. You can recognize the PRR relationship, but none of the places use real names. He did an excellent job. Another comment was made about the MR layout being "yet another Horseshoe Curve". I agree, the Horseshoe Curve is way overdone. The only reason it appears on my layout is that it happened to work out that way. My priority was doing Harrisburg, to a super level of accuracy...which we can debate in a few years! When I added the upper level, I wanted to feature helper ops on a long grade. I also happen to love Cresson. Horseshoe Curve fell into the plan by accident. Many may be thrilled by it, once completed, but I could care less to a large degree. By the way, Cresson will be done to a super level of accuracy as well...thanks to Pat McK's valuation maps!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 11:55:29 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article Richard points out: >Uh...I may be getting up to speak like a whiskey peddler at a revival >meeting but... >the only person this layout has to please is the modeler himself. A sensitive issue and as Richard quite rightly points out, the first person we ougth to please with our modeling is ourselves...However, it is also extremely important the historical accuracy be addressed when things "Pennsy" are printed in a national magazine...even if it that magazinee has recently turned into the USA Today of Modeling Railroading. To that end, we ought to politely and as non-critcally as possible address the innaccuracies without being judgemental. It should neither be a crime to live with inconsistencies, nor to point them out. After all, there is a brass K4, beautifully custom painted in the 1930's passenger stripes, on my livingroom shelf, with a modern front end...I hadn't a clue it was wrong when I bought it! Happy Rails, from a rivet counter Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:56:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] Milwaukee Trainfest photos N&W A, R50, 2dP5, 442, etc Greg, If you are referring to the way Lifelike enginerred the Y3 to be articulated at the rear engine pivot point and if you are dis-satisfied with that, why not just place a dab of ACC to achor that pivot point? Seriously, is this possible? You may have to run on 36 inch radius but you will have a fix to the articulated rear engine. Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gary Farmer" Subject: [PRR] Hep with names Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 13:08:56 -0500 Hi list, I need help finding out who 3 men were, whom I believe would have been in some sort of executive/managerial position with the PRR. The 3 men for whom I'm looking for information, along with approximate dates that they worked for the RR: Paul W. Van Camp (from the mid-1940's) E.C. Amey (from the mid-1950's) J.W. Lightner (from the mid- 1960's) Anybody out there with a PRR phone book, or other books that can help? Thanks! Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 13:19:42 -0500 Hear! Hear! Model railroading is supposed to be fun. MR fancies itself as a mass market publication. If the spread were in the Keystone I could understand the dismay. (I don the bunker gear) ;-) Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 12:02 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article > Uh...I may be getting up to speak like a whiskey peddler at a revival > meeting but... > the only person this layout has to please is the modeler himself. > I once saw a Horseshoe Curve model that included the natural rock > formations taken from photographs along the curve. It was very > impressive, and yes, I love to see any model scene that looks good enough > to take the visitor back in time. Shouldn't the purpose of the > particular guy's layout be to let him run Pennsy trains the way he > remembers or wants to remember them? My Long Island Rail Road layout > includes a Lines West tender on my H-10, and a pre-war K4 along with FM > C-liners in 1963 paint. I know they don't "go together", but they go. > Gives me great satisfaction. > > Richard Glueck > Peace of the Planet Farm > Winterport, Maine > > "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside a > dog, it's too dark to read." - Groucho > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:38:53 -0600 Some of the world's greatest nitpickers with respect to layouts are those that have no layout of their own. -----Original Message----- From: Tom Mahon [mailto:tmahon@adelphia.net] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 12:20 PM To: aurora7@juno.com Cc: PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article Hear! Hear! Model railroading is supposed to be fun. MR fancies itself as a mass market publication. If the spread were in the Keystone I could understand the dismay. (I don the bunker gear) ;-) Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 12:02 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article > Uh...I may be getting up to speak like a whiskey peddler at a revival > meeting but... > the only person this layout has to please is the modeler himself. > I once saw a Horseshoe Curve model that included the natural rock > formations taken from photographs along the curve. It was very > impressive, and yes, I love to see any model scene that looks good enough > to take the visitor back in time. Shouldn't the purpose of the > particular guy's layout be to let him run Pennsy trains the way he > remembers or wants to remember them? My Long Island Rail Road layout > includes a Lines West tender on my H-10, and a pre-war K4 along with FM > C-liners in 1963 paint. I know they don't "go together", but they go. > Gives me great satisfaction. > > Richard Glueck > Peace of the Planet Farm > Winterport, Maine > > "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside a > dog, it's too dark to read." - Groucho > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:52:03 +0000 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article bobsin@nac.net wrote: >I too was a bit disappointed with the article (at least I got my copy!) >but I think the way these magazines work, is the editor is always >looking for material; he prints the best stuff he can find. Would it >have been better to have run another Tehachapi Look layout, if >nobody's sent him anything better with a PRR theme? > >John Bobsin > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > The Model Railroader has been sitting on my article for Federal Street ( PRR's Whitehall branch in Southside Pittsburgh c. 1950 ) for some 18 months. Though I've been paid for my efforts it would be nice to see it in print one day. -- Regards, John H. Wright Washington, England Web sites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ http://www.xclent.clara.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Milwaukee Trainfest photos N&W A, R50, 2dP5, 442, etc Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:51:24 +0000 I'm not sure that would accomplish anything other than make it unusable. In a real articulated isn't the pivot on the front set above the rear set of wheels so the whole mass can swing from the rearmost point? As I recall on articluated models the pivot is moved forward over the third set or center set of drivers. Locking the rear set could cause the rear drivers of the front set to derail due to the lateral forces being generated by trying to swing the front set from to far forward a pivot point while the rear set is still trying to go straight. With large enough radius curves it might not be a problem but it might be an expensive way to find out too. Then again I could be out to lunch with this theory. > Greg, > > If you are referring to the way Lifelike enginerred the Y3 to be > articulated at the rear engine pivot point and if you are dis-satisfied > with that, why not just place a dab of ACC to achor that pivot point? > Seriously, is this possible? You may have to run on 36 inch radius but > you will have a fix to the articulated rear engine. Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Randy Williamson" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Engines 1954 Roster NY Region Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 13:03:45 -0600 Try my website: http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/NEW%20YOR K%20REGION%20-%20HOME.htm Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christophe CHOJNA" To: Sent: Sunday, November 10, 2002 1:59 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Engines 1954 Roster NY Region > > Hi ! > > I'm a new comer in american railroads. I'm planing a layout based on the PRR > New York Region, circa '54. I would like to know which engines (diesel > and/or steam)were operating in the area. > Can anybody help ? > Thanks, C.C. > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online > http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 14:09:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article --part1_93.2601852c.2b015a7b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm amazed and shocked at the many posts blasting this guy and his railroad.= =20 If he had declared this to be a 100% accurate replica of the Pennsy Middle=20 Division I would have to agree with all the negative posts. However, it's=20 just his personal interpretation of the Pennsy so whatever he thinks looks=20 good is correct. After all it's his money, time and energy that produced the= =20 railroad.=20 While there are aspects that I didn't care for I can see no reason to=20 belittle his obvious love of the Pennsy and his railroad. Since he didn't as= k=20 anyone here his opinion on what and what not to include on the layout I don'= t=20 see where anyone here has a right to dictate what he should or should not be= =20 including.=20 How many of you slamming the guy have gotten far enough along with your=20 layouts to get them in MR or any other magazine? I think we should be glad t= o=20 see another Pennsy layout instead of the way-too-many Union Pacific and=20 Tehachapi Loop railroads ....or.....shudder.......NYC!! As long as SOMEONE=20 is modeling the Pennsy it will always be alive. My congratulations to the guy for getting MR to run such a nice artilce on=20 his railroad. My 2=A2 Roger W. Huber........PRR lover (among others) --part1_93.2601852c.2b015a7b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm amazed and shocked at the many posts blasting this= guy and his railroad. If he had declared this to be a 100% accurate replica= of  the Pennsy Middle Division I would have to agree with all the nega= tive posts. However, it's just his personal interpretation of the Pennsy so=20= whatever he thinks looks good is correct. After all it's his money, time and= energy that produced the railroad.

While there are aspects that I didn't care for I can see no reason to belitt= le his obvious love of the Pennsy and his railroad. Since he didn't ask anyo= ne here his opinion on what and what not to include on the layout I don't se= e where anyone here has a right to dictate what he should or should not be i= ncluding.

How many of you slamming the guy have gotten far enough along with your layo= uts to get them in MR or any other magazine? I think we should be glad to se= e another Pennsy layout instead of the way-too-many Union Pacific and Tehach= api Loop railroads ....or.....shudder.......NYC!!  As long as SOMEONE i= s modeling the Pennsy it will always be alive.

My congratulations to the guy for getting MR to run such a nice artilce on h= is railroad.

My 2=A2
Roger W. Huber........PRR lover (among others) --part1_93.2601852c.2b015a7b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 14:32:39 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Milwaukee Trainfest photos N&W A, R50, 2dP5, 442, etc --part1_45.1fef0756.2b015fd7_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/2002 12:05:57 PM Central Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: > if you are dis-satisfied > with that, why not just place a dab of ACC to achor that pivot point? > That is my quick fix to P2K passenger unit swinging coupler pockets. Styrne blocks and epoxy to fix them in place. Allows me to still remove the body without fooling around with couplers and solves the operational problem of the tinplate curve mechanism. Bob Zoeller --part1_45.1fef0756.2b015fd7_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/2002 12:05:57 PM Central Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes:


if you are dis-satisfied
with that, why not just place a dab of ACC to achor that pivot point?


That is my quick fix to P2K passenger unit swinging coupler pockets.  Styrne blocks and epoxy to fix them in place.  Allows me to still remove the body without fooling around with couplers and solves the operational problem of the tinplate curve mechanism.

Bob Zoeller --part1_45.1fef0756.2b015fd7_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:01:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] Milwaukee Trainfest photos N&W A, R50, 2dP5, 442, etc Norm, ACCing the rear engine "stiff" will not have an ill effect on the front engine (as long as you don't try to travel around sharp curves). As I mentioned, you may now need to negotiate a minimum of 36" radius if one wants to rid of rear engine articulation. As long as the front engine pivots this will work. Case in point, the Oriental Powerhouse 2-8-8-2 I just worked on for someone. The rear engine is anchored. It will not move. However, the front engine pivots freely at the pivot point between the 2 sets of engines. The pivot point is under the rear set of cylinders. I would have to inspect my Proto 2-8-8-2 to see where the pivot for the front engine is but it has to be between the 2 sets of engines. If it is, ACCing the rear engine will work. (By the way, It is Impossible to have the pivot point within the front engine making the rear set of drivers part of the rear engine) Myself I do not mind the dual articulation because I don't plan on running on tight curves where it will be noticable.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:18:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] Milwaukee Trainfest photos N&W A, R50, 2dP5, 442, etc Norm, Just looked at my Proto 2-8-8-2. Should have looked at it before my last post. This beast is built enirely different than the Oriental 2-8-8-2 I was referring to, which IS properly articulated like the prototype You are partly correct. On the Proto loco the front engine pivot point is between the 2nd and 3rd drivers. Completely independent from the rear engine, no connecton at all except for the universal/shaft inside the boiler. By the way, the pivot point for the rear engine is between the 2nd and 3rd driver also. After looking at the Proto 2-8-8-2, it is possible for one to ACC the rear engine to keep it from swinging. If not ACC then possibly reworking the screw assembly with lock washers might do the trick too. Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Milwaukee Trainfest photos N&W A, R50, 2dP5, 442, etc Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 14:30:17 -0600 The old Rivarossi articulated were designed in a similar fashion so that both sets of drivers moved. This was done to accommodate the running of the locomotive on sharp radii curves. -----Original Message----- From: mittner@webtv.net [mailto:mittner@webtv.net] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 2:19 PM To: ndbprr@att.net Cc: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Milwaukee Trainfest photos N&W A, R50, 2dP5, 442, etc Norm, Just looked at my Proto 2-8-8-2. Should have looked at it before my last post. This beast is built enirely different than the Oriental 2-8-8-2 I was referring to, which IS properly articulated like the prototype You are partly correct. On the Proto loco the front engine pivot point is between the 2nd and 3rd drivers. Completely independent from the rear engine, no connecton at all except for the universal/shaft inside the boiler. By the way, the pivot point for the rear engine is between the 2nd and 3rd driver also. After looking at the Proto 2-8-8-2, it is possible for one to ACC the rear engine to keep it from swinging. If not ACC then possibly reworking the screw assembly with lock washers might do the trick too. Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 16:48:19 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article Either Shakespeare or the Bible says: "Let he who is guiltless cast the first stones." I assume that each of you criticizing the PRR layout has a finished spread that is complete and perfect in every way with NO compromises, NO errors, and NO personal touches. . . . and that all the steam engines are prototypical and actually run on coal, not 12 volts. (Did the PRR have any helixes?) It's a hobby guys, lighten up! The fellow obviously enjoys the hobby and should be congratulated for spreading the good word about the PRR, even if his layout doesn't meet some peoples "standards." Jim McDaniel, 2c worth from Delmarva, where I compromise on my modeling and do it my way ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: RE: [PRR] Milwaukee Trainfest photos N&W A, R50, 2dP5, 442, etc Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:30:29 -0500 Not meaning to sound like an elitist, but I wonder how many people with 18 inch curves are spending over $300 on an engine? I have both an Powerhouse 2-8-8-2 and a Akane Allegheny, and both did fine on my old layout which had few curves of 22 inch. I would think that the Class A could handle a 22 inch curve which you can buy off the shelf. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:38:59 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article Jim said> Either Shakespeare or the Bible says: "Let he who is guiltless cast the first stones." It was Jesus when the Pharisees confronted Him with a prostitute to be punished by stoning - the standard punishment for adultery. They were trying to trap Him. His answer was "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." John 8:7 NIV. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:46:00 -0500 Friends: John's layout is superb! I saw it first hand on my last trip across the pond and was more than suitably impressed. For the life of me, I can't understand why there is a delay in publishing it. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "John H. Wright" To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 7:52 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article > bobsin@nac.net wrote: > > >I too was a bit disappointed with the article (at least I got my copy!) > >but I think the way these magazines work, is the editor is always > >looking for material; he prints the best stuff he can find. Would it > >have been better to have run another Tehachapi Look layout, if > >nobody's sent him anything better with a PRR theme? > > > >John Bobsin > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > > > > > > The Model Railroader has been sitting on my article for Federal Street > ( PRR's Whitehall branch in Southside Pittsburgh c. 1950 ) for some 18 > months. Though I've been paid for my efforts it would be nice to see > it in print one day. > > -- > Regards, > John H. Wright > Washington, England > Web sites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ > http://www.xclent.clara.net > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 15:51:25 -0700 John, I suspect that you are the victim of MR's latest phase..."Mediocre Modeling for Mega Profits". Face it, your models are just too good for their precieved clientele...take their money and run! (but you are right...it would be nice to see your work in MR...I might even buy a copy again!) Bill Daniels, who is getting sick and tired of "Model Railroading for Dummies!" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:50:18 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009D_01C289AA.CC1D19A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Roger, I applaud you! Lew Matt ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Huber25@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 2:09 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article I'm amazed and shocked at the many posts blasting this guy and his = railroad. If he had declared this to be a 100% accurate replica of the = Pennsy Middle Division I would have to agree with all the negative = posts. However, it's just his personal interpretation of the Pennsy so = whatever he thinks looks good is correct. After all it's his money, time = and energy that produced the railroad.=20 While there are aspects that I didn't care for I can see no reason to = belittle his obvious love of the Pennsy and his railroad. Since he = didn't ask anyone here his opinion on what and what not to include on = the layout I don't see where anyone here has a right to dictate what he = should or should not be including.=20 How many of you slamming the guy have gotten far enough along with = your layouts to get them in MR or any other magazine? I think we should = be glad to see another Pennsy layout instead of the way-too-many Union = Pacific and Tehachapi Loop railroads ....or.....shudder.......NYC!! As = long as SOMEONE is modeling the Pennsy it will always be alive. My congratulations to the guy for getting MR to run such a nice = artilce on his railroad. My 2=A2 Roger W. Huber........PRR lover (among others)=20 ------=_NextPart_000_009D_01C289AA.CC1D19A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Roger, I applaud you!
 
Lew Matt
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Huber25@aol.com=20
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 = 2:09=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR=20 Article

I'm amazed and shocked at the many posts blasting = this guy=20 and his railroad. If he had declared this to be a 100% accurate = replica=20 of  the Pennsy Middle Division I would have to agree with all the = negative posts. However, it's just his personal interpretation of the = Pennsy=20 so whatever he thinks looks good is correct. After all it's his money, = time=20 and energy that produced the railroad.

While there are aspects = that I=20 didn't care for I can see no reason to belittle his obvious love of = the Pennsy=20 and his railroad. Since he didn't ask anyone here his opinion on what = and what=20 not to include on the layout I don't see where anyone here has a right = to=20 dictate what he should or should not be including.

How many of = you=20 slamming the guy have gotten far enough along with your layouts to get = them in=20 MR or any other magazine? I think we should be glad to see another = Pennsy=20 layout instead of the way-too-many Union Pacific and Tehachapi Loop = railroads=20 ....or.....shudder.......NYC!!  As long as SOMEONE is modeling = the Pennsy=20 it will always be alive.

My congratulations to the guy for = getting MR=20 to run such a nice artilce on his railroad.

My 2=A2
Roger W. = Huber........PRR lover (among others) = ------=_NextPart_000_009D_01C289AA.CC1D19A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:58:15 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article From: Roger P Hensley On Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:52:03 +0000 "John H. Wright" writes: > The Model Railroader has been sitting on my article for > Federal Street ( PRR's Whitehall branch in Southside > Pittsburgh c. 1950 ) for some 18 months. Though I've been > paid for my efforts it would be nice to see it in print one day. I will look forward to seeing that in print! :-) Roger Hensley === Railroads of Madison County === === http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ === ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:04:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI GG1/High Intakes Bruce & list...... It would be nice if BLI did do a run of the post-1958 style carbody (High Intake with plated over body intake). But an aftermarket part would be nice too. Don't know exact number, but didn't PRR modify almost half the fleet? Well, if the post-'58 carbody is never made, I won't complain. A lot of unmodified GG1s did make it to end. I'll just have to choose the correct unmodified PRR and Penn Central numbers. It's funny how some GG1s made it all the way to the 1980s with original carbodies while others were modified. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: [PRR] Milwaukee Trainfest photos N&W A, R50, 2dP5, 442, etc Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 17:10:58 -0600 Eric wrote: Not meaning to sound like an elitist, but I wonder how many people with 18 inch curves are spending over $300 on an engine? ------------------ I've have been shocked by what people buy. Many swap meet "steals" are folks selling off stuff that won't run on their snap-track layouts. Sometimes folks just don't consider the layout when buying that new piece of equipment. This is most likely the reason that most of these loco's MUST run on an 18" radius. Remember, beginner HO has an 18 inch radius as a defacto standard. Pete Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:19:50 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article It is not unusual for magazines to sit on articles as well as just photos for long periods of time. When Rail Model Journal came to photograph my layout, it was almost a year before the article appeared in print. However, I have always heard that Kalmbach seems to be especially bad. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:22:29 -0500 Al et al: That reminds me, MR has an article of mine since 1983. I better start checking up on that. Thanks for the heads up! Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 6:19 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article > It is not unusual for magazines to sit on articles as well as just > photos for long periods of time. When Rail Model Journal came to > photograph my layout, it was almost a year before the article appeared > in print. However, I have always heard that Kalmbach seems to be > especially bad. > > Al > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 18:32:45 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article Lew said>That reminds me, MR has an article of mine since 1983. I better start checking up on that. Thanks for the heads up! Wow, that might just be a new record. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:02:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] Focal Orange? YEP! List, I was at the N5c restoration site Saturday and snapped a photo of the Freight Car Color (FCC) that is adorned under the CR Blue, PC Green and Focal Orange paints (some partially seen in the pic). Not sure if you can interpret the FCC color or not via the net, but it is there when seen in person. http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000638.jpg Also partially seen in the pic is a restored N8 waiting another round of restoration. 10 years ago it got the full treatment. Rust---An Unbelievable Thing......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:28:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article//Pennsy Impressions Gents, What with all the discussion of the Pennsy layout in December MR, I thought I better page through a copy at the local shop. (I haven't been getting MR since my year's $19.95 subscription, courtesy of the coupon in a Branchline box car kit, ran out. I had enough enough sticker shock after paying $14.32 for a copy of Classic Trains and Great Model Railroads. Two mags, whew!) At any rate, I didn't think the layout was all that bad. I gather it's based on the owner's recollections of the Pennsy, and who's to say him nay? I did catch sight of that too-late CNJ car at a loading dock, but probably wouldn't have if no one had mentioned it. And I noticed a lot of the same quandry I'm going thorugh: lots of off the shelf equipment. But I certainly can't fault the layout owner for that. How many Athearns can you put on the rails for the same time spent on one Westerfield? After spending five hours today laying one brick passenger platform on my own layout, I can only marvel at the time put into that model railroad. I should live so long, at the rate I'm progressing! I'll also extend credit to anyone taking on that big a chunk of the PRR. And no less so for basing it on impressions. I can't even concieve of how I'd try converting my own memories to scale. Riding a very fast General east across the Indiana cornfileds, miles and miles of blazing mills through Pittsburgh in the wee hours, GG1's knocking off ninety with a Washington express or Clocker, MP54's getting rattled by passing mainliners, cinders and high speed over on Pennsy's poverty stricken cousin PRSL, a local freight riding the elevated line down to Berks and Front Streets, keystone whistle posts a few miles from the Strait of Mackinaw, signal bridges all along the line, rowhouses lining an elevated main...man oh man, too much for my basement. Afraid I've had to bite off a smaller mouthfull, and I'm down to being happy to model a single "Pennsy-type" city, if I can give it the right feeling. MR? Heck, I'll be happy if my friends say, "Geez, that does remind me of the Pennsy". Regards folks, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FredAbend@aol.com Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:42:00 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI GG1/High Intakes Dave and List... I did an article on the high intakes that was in the Spring 1983 Pennsy Journal. I found that at least 39 of the fleet had high intakes. I say at least because there were four I could not find photos to check. These intakes were not uniform. There were at least five variations for which I found 20, 2, 10, 1, and 6 examples of each. They were quite different so that would create some challenges.... Fred Abendschein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:54:28 -0500 Subject: [PRR] MP229 Question From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" Though I have "too much" of some things PRR, I have yet to collect a single copy of an MP229! Other than listing the road numbers of all locos assigned to a particular division, does the detail go so far as to indicate which train(s) each loco protects? This info must be on some Pennsy document, somewhere! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:26:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI GG1/High Intakes Fred & list....... Thanks for the 'heads up" on the Pennsy Journal article. I don't have any of those magazine but a freind ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 20:39:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI GG1/High Intakes Fred & List............ Sorry about the half email. Like I was saying, I don't have any Pennsy Journal magazines but my friend has all of them. I have many photos of GG1s with various types of high intakes. I've seen photos of HO GG1s modified by modelers with high intakes and they looked pretty good. But like Bruce said, the metal body on BLI"s GG1 will make it tough. Guess we'll have to wait and see. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article//Pennsy Impressions Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 01:59:26 +0000 BARRY - Your comments on the DecMR Article are kind, pertinent and in good taste. For all those who claim they are not nitpicking, their words belie their bull. Not only do they take to task others because they (the self-appointed doyens) are not pleased with another's work, but they demean the efforts made by someone who didn't do it in the first place for their pleasure. For those who prefer to proceed and have a good time at model railroading more power to you ! For all the carpers and smarty pants who are so good that they must look down on another's efforts: may someone sand yor rails with steel wool, may all your benchwork warp any may the fleas of a thousand camels infest your scenery! -HANK ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 00:13:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] R50b accuracy Evan, I think that Bob Johnson and I can attest to the accuracy of the paint and lettering as we walled Walthers through the steps. I understand that TRAINFEST in Milwaukee had at least some painted and lettered samples there. Did anyone one on the list attend? Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 00:38:43 EST Subject: [PRR] Perils of Prototyping (PRR Layout in December MR) --part1_6d.1e17edc.2b01ede3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 5:52:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > You're absolutely right. It was designed for him and all it needs to please > is him. > > The tip off to the die-hards should have been the word "Brunswick" in the > name of the layout. Then again how would it have sounded if it were named > "The Tuscan and Dark Green Locomotive Enamel Railroad"!!! > > Here's my two cents... > > Everyone has a right to model what they want and to exercise modelers > license. > > If you truly freelance, as the owner of the layout in question did, you > invite criticism when you include an actual location and use the actual > location's name. By having a curve and naming it Horseshoe Curve, you > invite > criticism. If he had made the same curve but called it Buff Curve, we > wouldn't be having this conversation. > > Those who freelance, in my opinion, should stay away from real place names. > A few years back MR did a layout series on the Middle Division. Yes, it > captured some elements of the PRR, but not operations-wise. But it didn't > include any real place names, so it was good. > > Bob Martin, close by in Emigsville PA, mimicks the PRR with his Central > Pennsylvania Railroad. You can recognize the PRR relationship, but none of > the places use real names. He did an excellent job. > > Another comment was made about the MR layout being "yet another Horseshoe > Curve". I agree, the Horseshoe Curve is way overdone. The only reason it > appears on my layout is that it happened to work out that way. My priority > was doing Harrisburg, to a super level of accuracy...which we can debate in > a few years! When I added the upper level, I wanted to feature helper ops > on > a long grade. I also happen to love Cresson. Horseshoe Curve fell into the > plan by accident. Many may be thrilled by it, once completed, but I could > care less to a large degree. By the way, Cresson will be done to a super > level of accuracy as well...thanks to Pat McK's valuation maps!!! > Hello fellow listers, I've been following the commentary on Mike Shanahan's PRR layout in December 2002 Model Railroader. Given my last layout's departures from reality, maybe I shouldn't comment. But: I look at the article and see a number of things that, from a strictly prototype viewpoint, bother me: 1. I doubt we'd often see J-1's and articulateds together near Horseshoe Curve. Remember that to anybody but a rabid PRR railfan, this mismatch would be invisible. 2. The engine fleet is mostly late 40's/early 50's, but the lead photo shows a K4s displaying both the postwar beauty treatment and a striped tender that I doubt survived the Thirties. Wow! 3. The car fleet ranges from CK to late 50's and (that Coast Guard CNJ box) even later. The coal loader picture shows a red PRR H43? hopper in phase SK2a lettering from 1957-1960. Of course , in the real world the H43 didn't come along until 1964, was in black, and was too late to carry that lettering. And on p120, I think I see an N8 with an unshaded keystone (1961 at the earliest). But I'm a car lettering freak, and again this sort of anachronism doesn't register on most modelers' meters. 4. Similarly, the lead photo has a Southern Railway "Green Light to Innovations" trailer showing -- a scheme several months too late even for my departed June 1968 layout. 5. I'm conditioned to seeing the uphill tracks on The Curve weathered in "sand", whereas the downhill tracks would be much darker. The layout as shown appears to have shiny? nickel silver rail sides all around. 6. Finally, I would have been happier if the article had been titled "Horseshoe Curve in the late 40's", because there isn't a diesel in sight. 7. I'm sure other PRR nitpickers can find additional issues with the layout as shown in the magazine. Here, on this list, for Pennsy fanatics only, it may be OK to discuss these things, at least in moderation. ON THE OTHER HAND, if you'll allow me: 1. Mike Shanahan has put a great deal of effort into this layout, and as a model railroad, it really looks good. Look at the level of detail, quality of finish, and complexity of what has been taken on. The scenery looks good (not always true on a larger model railroad), and the loco paint (Mike's specialty) shows very well. This layout is clearly a labor of love, and it's a more successful effort than many. 2. I dare say Lou Sassi has done his usual skillful job of photography. Each scene is nicely lit, has good depth of field, and shows another interesting aspect of the layout. 3. You can bet the Kalmbach team put some effort into bringing this article to publication. The editing and captions are intelligent, and the full-color "map" of the layout by Rick Johnson and Elizabeth Rowan looks good and helps tell the story. Good work like this isn't cheap. 4. Despite us few, Model Railroader magazine's audience is model railroaders, not prototype hounds. Most readers will never, never, ever notice the things that send us screaming out of the room. 5. The hard facts in the magazine business is, the editors of Model Railroader can look around for all the great prototype layouts they can find. However, they are going to publish the articles that are offered to them -- and this one was. This article was good enough to make publication (and Lou's photos probably voted twice, as they should). So this is what is set before the model railroading public this month. As always, the rule is "if you want to see something different in the magazine, you have to write it yourself" -- and provide photos. MEANWHILE, BACK AT PRR PROTOTYPE MODELING: I have long noticed that bad things can happen when a modeler gets wrapped up in zealous attention to the prototype. The first of these is that he can become a scale rule Richard -- usually followed by losing his friends and alienating acquaintances if he's not careful. The simple truth is that most modelers don't WANT to know that stuff, and are really bummered when you point it out. After long and sad experience with this, I try not to offer ANY criticisms unless they are solicited. The other guy is entitled to enjoy his hobby without having some spoilsport ruin it. The second vice I see in attention to the prototype is that the most slavish prototypers are by far the slowest builders of layouts. In fact, you could almost say that, if you know enough about the prototype, you will never get it modeled . Of course, I'm hoping this law is repealed for Jerry and me and others now attempting prototype-oriented layouts. But it's a real hurdle to get over. I leave you with the prayer that you always view model railroads (including your own) with a kindly eye, and try to identify what's best, not worst, about any piece of work. Prototyping's fun, but life's too short for us to expect all model railroading to be true to our own vision -- and that includes, of course, our own layouts. It's tough to recreate something as good as the Pennsy. Keep the faith -- but keep it fun... and thanks for listening. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_6d.1e17edc.2b01ede3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/11/02 5:52:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


You're absolutely right. It was designed for him and all it needs to please
is him.

The tip off to the die-hards should have been the word "Brunswick" in the
name of the layout. Then again how would it have sounded if it were named
"The Tuscan and Dark Green Locomotive Enamel Railroad"!!!

Here's my two cents...

Everyone has a right to model what they want and to exercise modelers
license.

If you truly freelance, as the owner of the layout in question did, you
invite criticism when you include an actual location and use the actual
location's name. By having a curve and naming it Horseshoe Curve, you invite
criticism. If he had made the same curve but called it Buff Curve, we
wouldn't be having this conversation.

Those who freelance, in my opinion, should stay away from real place names.
A few years back MR did a layout series on the Middle Division. Yes, it
captured some elements of the PRR, but not operations-wise. But it didn't
include any real place names, so it was good.

Bob Martin, close by in Emigsville PA, mimicks the PRR with his Central
Pennsylvania Railroad. You can recognize the PRR relationship, but none of
the places use real names. He did an excellent job.

Another comment was made about the MR layout being "yet another Horseshoe
Curve". I agree, the Horseshoe Curve is way overdone. The only reason it
appears on my layout is that it happened to work out that way. My priority
was doing Harrisburg, to a super level of accuracy...which we can debate in
a few years! When I added the upper level, I wanted to feature helper ops on
a long grade. I also happen to love Cresson. Horseshoe Curve fell into the
plan by accident. Many may be thrilled by it, once completed, but I could
care less to a large degree. By the way, Cresson will be done to a super
level of accuracy as well...thanks to Pat McK's valuation maps!!!



Hello fellow listers,

I've been following the commentary on Mike Shanahan's PRR layout in December 2002 Model Railroader.  Given my last layout's departures from reality, maybe I shouldn't comment.  But:

I look at the article and see a number of things that, from a strictly prototype viewpoint, bother me:
1.  I doubt we'd often see J-1's and articulateds together near Horseshoe Curve.  Remember that to anybody but a rabid PRR railfan, this mismatch would be invisible.
2. The engine fleet is mostly late 40's/early 50's, but the lead photo shows a K4s displaying both the postwar beauty treatment and a striped tender that I doubt survived the Thirties.  Wow!
3.  The car fleet ranges from CK to late 50's and (that Coast Guard CNJ box) even later.  The coal loader picture shows a red PRR H43? hopper in phase SK2a lettering from 1957-1960.  Of course , in the real world the H43 didn't come along until 1964, was in black, and was too late to carry that lettering.  And on p120, I think I see an N8 with an unshaded keystone (1961 at the earliest).  But I'm a car lettering freak, and again this sort of anachronism doesn't register on most modelers' meters.
4.  Similarly, the lead photo has a Southern Railway "Green Light to Innovations" trailer showing -- a scheme several months too late even for my departed June 1968 layout.
5.  I'm conditioned to seeing the uphill tracks on The Curve weathered in "sand", whereas the downhill tracks would be much darker.  The layout as shown appears to have shiny? nickel silver rail sides all around.
6.  Finally, I would have been happier if the article had been titled "Horseshoe Curve in the late 40's", because there isn't a diesel in sight. 
7.  I'm sure other PRR nitpickers can find additional issues with the layout as shown in the magazine.

Here, on this list, for Pennsy fanatics only, it may be OK to discuss these things, at least in moderation.

ON THE OTHER HAND, if you'll allow me:

1.  Mike Shanahan has put a great deal of effort into this layout, and as a model railroad, it really looks good.  Look at the level of detail, quality of finish, and complexity of what has been taken on.  The scenery looks good (not always true on a larger model railroad), and the loco paint (Mike's specialty) shows very well.  This layout is clearly a labor of love, and it's a more successful effort than many.
2.  I dare say Lou Sassi has done his usual skillful job of photography.  Each scene is nicely lit, has good depth of field, and shows another interesting aspect of the layout.
3.  You can bet the Kalmbach team put some effort into bringing this article to publication.  The editing and captions are intelligent, and the full-color "map" of the layout by Rick Johnson and Elizabeth Rowan looks good and helps tell the story.  Good work like this isn't cheap.
4.  Despite us few, Model Railroader magazine's audience is model railroaders, not prototype hounds.  Most readers will never, never, ever notice the things that send us screaming out of the room.
5.  The hard facts in the magazine business is, the editors of Model Railroader can look around for all the great prototype layouts they can find.  However, they are going to publish the articles that are offered to them -- and this one was.  This article was good enough to make publication (and Lou's photos probably voted twice, as they should).  So this is what is set before the model railroading public this month.  As always, the rule is "if you want to see something different in the magazine, you have to write it yourself" -- and provide photos.

MEANWHILE, BACK AT PRR PROTOTYPE MODELING:

I have long noticed that bad things can happen when a modeler gets wrapped up in zealous attention to the prototype.  The first of these is that he can become a scale rule Richard -- usually followed by losing his friends and alienating acquaintances if he's not careful.  The simple truth is that most modelers don't WANT to know that stuff, and are really bummered when you point it out.  After long and sad experience with this, I try not to offer ANY criticisms unless they are solicited.  The other guy is entitled to enjoy his hobby without having some spoilsport ruin it.

The second vice I see in attention to the prototype is that the most slavish prototypers are by far the slowest builders of layouts.  In fact, you could almost say that, if you know enough about the prototype, you will never get it modeled <G>.  Of course, I'm hoping this law is repealed for Jerry and me and others now attempting prototype-oriented layouts.  But it's a real hurdle to get over.

I leave you with the prayer that you always view model railroads (including your own) with a kindly eye, and try to identify what's best, not worst, about any piece of work.  Prototyping's fun, but life's too short for us to expect all model railroading to be true to our own vision -- and that includes, of course, our own layouts.  It's tough to recreate something as good as the Pennsy.

Keep the faith -- but keep it fun... and thanks for listening.

                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_6d.1e17edc.2b01ede3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 22:45:55 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] MP229 Question Jerry, list, MP229 doesn't indicate which train(s) each engine is intended to work on. Like everyone else, I'm curious to find this information myself. Doug --- "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" wrote, in part: > > > Other than listing the road numbers of all locos > assigned to a particular division, does the detail go so far as to indicate which train(s) each loco > protects? __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:50:45 -0000 I critising the layout, I know what it is like to try and get an article published and to build a layout and the layout itself seems to be a nice one.. My objection is more to the way that MR seems to be "dumbing down" in terms of content. Patrick Grace www.prr.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Buchan" To: Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 11:19 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article > It is not unusual for magazines to sit on articles as well as just > photos for long periods of time. When Rail Model Journal came to > photograph my layout, it was almost a year before the article appeared > in print. However, I have always heard that Kalmbach seems to be > especially bad. > > Al > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 06:38:24 -0500 From: TWRimer@uss.com Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/12/02 RE: John's PRR article in MODEL RAILROADER I hear ya John. MR bought an article off of me in 1967 on scratchbuilding A Pennsy X-29 boxcar. They have yet to publish it ! Admitedly, a plastic version of the boxcar was introduced shortly after they bought my article that sold for about $3.00 (less than my scratchbuilt version) but it was still very disappointing. I have had magazines hold articleswell over a year without paying for them. I yanked an article from RMC after they sat on it for a long period of time and submitted it to another magazine - who promptly published and paid for it. The "other" magazines in the hobby are usually quite anxious to receive quality articles. Tom Rimer twr2244@aol.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] R50b accuracy Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 08:37:04 -0500 Friends: Whatever the condition, I think Walthers R50 is (will be) the most accurate, affordable R50 on the market. I intend to buy a six-pack and do whatever it takes to make those cars look right on a layout (to me). Bravo to Walthers! Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 12:13 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] R50b accuracy > Evan, > > I think that Bob Johnson and I can attest to the accuracy of the paint and > lettering as we walled Walthers through the steps. I understand that > TRAINFEST in Milwaukee had at least some painted and lettered samples there. > Did anyone one on the list attend? > > Greg Martin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 08:26:26 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI GG1/High Intakes Dave writes: > It would be nice if BLI did do a run of the post-1958 style carbody >(High Intake with plated over body intake). But an aftermarket part >would be nice too. Don't know exact number, but didn't PRR modify almost >half the fleet? > Well, if the post-'58 carbody is never made, I won't complain. A lot >of unmodified GG1s did make it to end. I'll just have to choose the >correct unmodified PRR and Penn Central numbers. Dave, I did a LOT of research into this area, even tho the mods are post my era, to suggest numbers to BLI for their #624 Pennsy Brunswick Green / 'Buff' Broad Stripe / 16" Roman Lettering. As noted, locos with this paint scheme are often modified with new vents and toe rails, and as Fred and I have noted, all vents are not created equal. There are a number of photos of motors without mods in this scheme, and then appearing with mods in this scheme. Again, ASSUMING BLI is doing the drop coupler pilot, locos in the 4859-4937 series, appearing in DGLE/1 stripe and remaining unmodified for the entire period (confirmed by unmodified photos post PRR) are: 4859, (preserved in Harrisburg PA in DGLE/buff 5 stripe and **which has a flat pilot-must have gotten swapped!) 4874 4877 (NJT painted, ran and preserved in Tuscan/5 stripe - a scheme it never wore for PRR - Hoboken NJ) 4882 (the last GG1 operated for NJT , preserved in black, Elkhart IN) 4909 (preserved, private owner, being restored to Tuscan/5 stripe) 4913 (preserved in Tuscan/5 stripe, Altoona) 4918 (preserved in St. Louis, unknown paint) 4919 (preserved in DGLE/buff 5 stripe, Roanoke, Va.) 4935 (preserved at RR musuem of Pa in DGLE/buff 5 stripe) Personally, I'd go for 4935, based on the later history of the loco...back then, she was just another unmodified GG1, and I kinda like that irony !! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:12:45 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Mineral Traffic in 1954 From: Jerry Britton I'm tweaking my operations plan for my model railroad, set in 1954, with Harrisburg as well as the Eastern Slope included. I've updated the draft of the Dispatcher's sheet at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/scenario1.html I'm showing full coal loads heading east as extras. I reviewed the list archives, and it looks like the same hoppers were used westbound for iron ore. Is this correct? Or were another type of cars used? (I know the iron ore loads look significantly different due to the weight.) What I am getting at is, should I have trains of empty hoppers heading west, or do I just fill them with iron ore? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Mineral Traffic in 1954 Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:46:08 -0500 You are partially correct. In 1954 there were a sizeable fleet of hoppers that were in the famous "triangle service." That is.......... The loads of iron ore went west from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh and off loaded in the steel mills. The empties were distributed throughout the western Penna. Coal fields and some of the coal went back east to Philadelphia, but a lot of it went north to Ashtabula. Empties then went to Erie where they were loaded with iron ore from Minnesota. These were then shipped to Bethlehem Steel via the Shamokin Branch, made famous by Clarence Weaver with his great movies of the I-1s on the Shamokin grade. They were given to the Lehigh Valley RR at Mt. Carmel for delivery to Bethlehem Steel in Bethlehem. Some of the Bethlehem hoppers I believe wound up with locally mined anthracite in them back down to Philadelphia for ocean loading and completed the cirle. The triangle name is mine, I don't know what the PRR really called it. By 1957 this was no longer the case. Erie ore dock was closed, the I-1s scrapped, Bethlehem steel was getting pellets from Liberia as were the mills in Pittsburgh and the ore jennys were created about three years later as the H-21s and GLa fleet totally disintegrated. The anthracite business pooped out about that time, the Bethlehem Steel mill later closed, the Pennsy folded and the whole scene generally went to Hell in a Handbasket. It is good you are modeling 1954. Lots more was happening on the railroad scene in those days. Bill Volkmer -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 11:13 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Mineral Traffic in 1954 I'm tweaking my operations plan for my model railroad, set in 1954, with Harrisburg as well as the Eastern Slope included. I've updated the draft of the Dispatcher's sheet at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/scenario1.html I'm showing full coal loads heading east as extras. I reviewed the list archives, and it looks like the same hoppers were used westbound for iron ore. Is this correct? Or were another type of cars used? (I know the iron ore loads look significantly different due to the weight.) What I am getting at is, should I have trains of empty hoppers heading west, or do I just fill them with iron ore? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:39:59 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Mineral Traffic in 1954 From: Jerry Britton On 11/12/02 11:46 AM, Bill Volkmer (bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com) wrote: > You are partially correct. In 1954 there were a sizeable fleet of > hoppers that were in the famous "triangle service." Excellent response...thanks, Bill. I thought the year 1954 was an important part of the question as I had recollected that the ore jennies were not yet built. Unless I hear contradictory leads, I'll go with "coal east" and "iron ore west". > > That is.......... The loads of iron ore went west from Philadelphia to > Pittsburgh and off loaded in the steel mills. The empties were > distributed throughout the western Penna. Coal fields and some of the > coal went back east to Philadelphia, but a lot of it went north to > Ashtabula. Empties then went to Erie where they were loaded with iron > ore from Minnesota. These were then shipped to Bethlehem Steel via the > Shamokin Branch, made famous by Clarence Weaver with his great movies of > the I-1s on the Shamokin grade. They were given to the Lehigh Valley RR > at Mt. Carmel for delivery to Bethlehem Steel in Bethlehem. Some of the > Bethlehem hoppers I believe wound up with locally mined anthracite in > them back down to Philadelphia for ocean loading and completed the > cirle. The triangle name is mine, I don't know what the PRR really > called it. > > By 1957 this was no longer the case. Erie ore dock was closed, the I-1s > scrapped, Bethlehem steel was getting pellets from Liberia as were the > mills in Pittsburgh and the ore jennys were created about three years > later as the H-21s and GLa fleet totally disintegrated. The anthracite > business pooped out about that time, the Bethlehem Steel mill later > closed, the Pennsy folded and the whole scene generally went to Hell in > a Handbasket. It is good you are modeling 1954. Lots more was > happening on the railroad scene in those days. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:44:38 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Mineral Traffic in 1954 Jerry, If the coal was headed east to a dock for transfer to a coal vessel and that dock was adjacent to or near an ore facility, and there was an ore boat unloading, and there was a need for mty hoppers at that time, and the type of hoppers were compatible with the steel mills unloading facilities it's possible they would have been used for a return westward ore movement west. If none of the above "phases of the moon" were in line they most likely would have returned mty. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:55:22 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Mineral Traffic in 1954 The P&E ore dock in Erie closed in 1960 the coal dock in 1964. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 11:09:58 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Mineral Traffic in 1954 >On 11/12/02 11:46 AM, Bill Volkmer (bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com) wrote: > >> You are partially correct. In 1954 there were a sizeable fleet of >> hoppers that were in the famous "triangle service." > Jerry replied >Excellent response...thanks, Bill. I thought the year 1954 was an important >part of the question as I had recollected that the ore jennies were not yet >built. > >Unless I hear contradictory leads, I'll go with "coal east" and "iron ore >west". Jerry, If I interpret Bill's response, you need to consider the volume...that is that the westward ore traffic would outnumber the eastward coal traffic by a significant margin, since the hoppers had so many ways to come back east (Bill's triangle). Or do I have this backward, and the coal traffic would really outnumber the ore (providing a ready source of emptys for the Philly ore docks and requiring shipping empties wets for the coal fields)? In addition, these trains appear (from Bill's response) to be handled very differently than unit trains...however, you might consider a "unit train" approach for the layout ...the good news (or is it bad news?) is that your coal trains shouldn't match your ore trains, either in car numbers, or numbers of cars. >From an ops standpoint (veering tangentially from PRR), how easy would it be to have an "ore train" that ran from Philly (staging) to Pittsburgh (staging), and was then restaged for the next ops session on your layout (and likewise "coal trains" headed east)? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Fw: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:13:26 -0000 I should have said I am NOT cruising the PRR layout... Patrick Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: "pgrace" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 10:50 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article > > > I critising the layout, I know what it is like to try and get an article > published and to build a layout and the layout itself seems to be a nice > one.. > My objection is more to the way that MR seems to be "dumbing down" in terms > of content. > > Patrick Grace > > www.prr.org.uk > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Buchan" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 11:19 PM > Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article > > > > It is not unusual for magazines to sit on articles as well as just > > photos for long periods of time. When Rail Model Journal came to > > photograph my layout, it was almost a year before the article appeared > > in print. However, I have always heard that Kalmbach seems to be > > especially bad. > > > > Al > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:16:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Mineral Traffic in 1954 From: Jerry Britton On 11/12/02 12:09 PM, Bruce F. Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > > From an ops standpoint (veering tangentially from PRR), how easy would it > be to have an "ore train" that ran from Philly (staging) to Pittsburgh > (staging), and was then restaged for the next ops session on your layout > (and likewise "coal trains" headed east)? My plan is to do both, concurrently, with separate trains. But since the Bowser H21a's need weight added, it's a problem to model empty trains! I anticipate Bowser will do the Gla's in N scale at some point as well. I'm buying them by the dozen in Circle Keystone as quickly as they come out! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Fw: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:36:33 -0000 I should have said I am NOT critising the PRR layout... *** spell checker..... Patrick Grace > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "pgrace" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 10:50 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article > > > > > > > > I critising the layout, I know what it is like to try and get an article > > published and to build a layout and the layout itself seems to be a nice > > one.. > > My objection is more to the way that MR seems to be "dumbing down" in > terms > > of content. > > > > Patrick Grace > > > > www.prr.org.uk > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Al Buchan" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 11:19 PM > > Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article > > > > > > > It is not unusual for magazines to sit on articles as well as just > > > photos for long periods of time. When Rail Model Journal came to > > > photograph my layout, it was almost a year before the article appeared > > > in print. However, I have always heard that Kalmbach seems to be > > > especially bad. > > > > > > Al > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:54:35 +0000 I don't think it is a case of dumbing down as much as it is a case of younger editors who don't have the whole picture (hopefully yet). The article on Geeps completely left out GP9b's for example. I checked and there was no reference anywhere in either the Geep article or the spotting differences feature. I got to see different handrial stanchions ( be still my heart!) but no GP9b's. I think they are just ignorant at this point of some of the transition years knowledge and they didn't even bother to check any of the spotting guides. I'd bet that if they did an article on Amtrak they could tell you the hour certain paint schemes were placed in service. I think they view most of us who model the transition years as dinosaurs and relics and a pain in the *** to a large degree. We aren't the future. We are the past. Lets face it most of us model what we saw as kids or teenagers. A person who is forty probably doesn't remember much of anything about the last years of passenger service before amtrak. I am amazed at the amount of coverage the PRR and PRR layouts have gotten recently. There are probably circulation numbers that justify printing anything about the PRR or ATSF they can get. Although previous postings would argue that point. They just don't have the first hand knowledge to understand what the PRR was and the old guard that does is fading quickly now. Particularly at Kalmbach. > I should have said I am NOT cruising the PRR layout... > > Patrick Grace > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "pgrace" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 10:50 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article > > > > > > > > I critising the layout, I know what it is like to try and get an article > > published and to build a layout and the layout itself seems to be a nice > > one.. > > My objection is more to the way that MR seems to be "dumbing down" in > terms > > of content. > > > > Patrick Grace > > > > www.prr.org.uk > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Al Buchan" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 11:19 PM > > Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article > > > > > > > It is not unusual for magazines to sit on articles as well as just > > > photos for long periods of time. When Rail Model Journal came to > > > photograph my layout, it was almost a year before the article appeared > > > in print. However, I have always heard that Kalmbach seems to be > > > especially bad. > > > > > > Al > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 13:41:02 -0500 From: Tom Hayden Subject: [PRR] Perils of Prototyping (PRR Layout in December MR) Rick, Your post was right on. Very well balanced. It's a tricky issue, in that all this "prototype" stuff is what so many of us on this site are interested in, yet the modeling hobby has room for so many skills and interests, that this can get in the way of good interchanges of ideas and appreciation of accomplishments. When I first read the "prototype" comments I found them interesting and informative, but overly critical. Then when others criticized the critics I felt an agreement, but realized the "prototypers" had a useful view too. Now your post has aligned it all for me and hopefully for others. Thanks for the wisdom. Tom Hayden PRRT&HS # 6975 >PRR-Talk Digest - Tuesday, November 12, 2002 > > Perils of Prototyping (PRR Layout in December MR) > by ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Mineral Traffic in 1954 (and later!) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 10:55:11 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C28A7D.075FD020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Al, Bill, and all; Can I ask some additional general questions about traffic a little further west; Pittsburgh? I understand that many of the Pittsburgh mills received their coal from the SW Pa steel company-owned coal mines. Although much of this came down river by barge, some came via PRR rails. Some of the SW Pa-generated coal in fact was shipped out of Shire Oaks, thru Pitcairn, and on to Bethlehem in Johnstown. I am not aware of any coal that was coming into this area from elsewhere (makes sense). But is this true? If ore by the 60's was coming out of Phila, was some small amount also coming off the lakes? Wasn't USSteel still mining out of Minnesota, putting it on boats and offloading for shipment into Pgh via the B&LE and URR? Did PRR have a similar arrangement still in place? Weren't there movements still being made of ore coming out of Whiskey Island (Cleveland)? Were they back-hauling at all on these movements, assuming they were using hoppers? Given that the jennies were not being used for coal, did they always go back to Phila mty? What was the PRR rationale on the use of these cars since they were limited to single-product/one-way movements (generally-I mean they were not designed for efficient hauling of coal, after all!)? Did any of the jennies go to the lakes? As an aside, I still find lots of pellets along the right-of-way all the way up the Monongahela branch to where Wheeling-Pitt must have received ore shipments from the PRR. Does this make sense? Given the amount of coal traffic originating on the Mon, does it not seem sensible that the PRR would have tended to use hoppers in the ore traffic so that they would have had a backhaul (bituminous coal to Phila for boat shipment elsewhere)? And where was the limestone (and other fluxing agents) being used in Pgh coming from? I remember lots of B&O and Reading hoppers, as well as two-bay PRR hoppers, coming from the east into Pitcairn with loads (not to the top!)of crushed limestone, manganese, and other stuff for the furnaces. Where were these guys originating? It seemed that by my time, some of this additive stuff was being shipped in in covered hoppers (H30s, H33s, H34s) as well as foreign stuff (B&O). Does anyone know anything about this? I look forward to any insight you can provide! Thanks, Elden ------_=_NextPart_001_01C28A7D.075FD020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Mineral Traffic in 1954 (and later!)

Al, Bill, and all;
Can I ask some additional general questions about = traffic a little further west; Pittsburgh?
I understand that many of the Pittsburgh mills = received their coal from the SW Pa steel company-owned coal = mines.  Although much of this came down river by barge, some came = via PRR rails.  Some of the SW Pa-generated coal in fact was = shipped out of Shire Oaks, thru Pitcairn, and on to Bethlehem in = Johnstown.  I am not aware of any coal that was coming into this = area from elsewhere (makes sense).  But is this true?

  If ore by the 60's was coming out of Phila, = was some small amount also coming off the lakes?  Wasn't USSteel = still mining out of Minnesota, putting it on boats and offloading for = shipment into Pgh via the B&LE and URR?  Did PRR have a = similar arrangement still in place?  Weren't there movements still = being made of ore coming out of Whiskey Island (Cleveland)?  Were = they back-hauling at all on these movements, assuming they were using = hoppers?  Given that the jennies were not being used for coal, did = they always go back to Phila mty?  What was the PRR rationale on = the use of these cars since they were limited to single-product/one-way = movements (generally-I mean they were not designed for efficient = hauling of coal, after all!)?  Did any of the jennies go to the = lakes?  As an aside, I still find lots of pellets along the = right-of-way all the way up the Monongahela branch to where = Wheeling-Pitt must have received ore shipments from the PRR.  Does = this make sense? 

   Given the amount of coal traffic = originating on the Mon, does it not seem sensible that the PRR would = have tended to use hoppers in the ore traffic so that they would have = had a backhaul (bituminous coal to Phila for boat shipment = elsewhere)?

   And where was the limestone (and other = fluxing agents) being used in Pgh coming from?  I remember lots of = B&O and Reading hoppers, as well as two-bay PRR hoppers, coming = from the east into Pitcairn with loads (not to the top!)of crushed = limestone, manganese, and other stuff for the furnaces.  Where = were these guys originating?  It seemed that by my time, some of = this additive stuff was being shipped in in covered hoppers (H30s, = H33s, H34s) as well as foreign stuff (B&O).  Does anyone know = anything about this?

   I look forward to any insight you can = provide!
Thanks,
Elden

------_=_NextPart_001_01C28A7D.075FD020-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 14:18:26 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Blowers at Tunnel Hill / Attn: Bob Johnson From: Jerry Britton Folks, in about three months I am going to be in need of some data that I don't have today, in order to more accurately model the Tunnel Hill area. I'm set on schematics and track arrangements, but could use the following: 1) Valuation maps of the EAST side of Tunnel Hill. This would give me the track spacing between the bores and the "footprint" of the blowers and support buildings. 2) Drawings of the blowers and/or support buildings. 3) Photographs of the blowers and/or support buildings. If anyone has these materials, has access to these materials, or otherwise knows of anyone who has access to these materials, please get in touch with me off-list. Bob Johnson: Has anything along these lines turned up yet in the archives at the station? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] MP229 Question Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 12:10:18 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C28A87.855D56A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Doug, Jerry, and all; The following info has been related to me by various folks over the years, and like all PRR info, should be not considered definitive, just that it did happen this way as part of normal day-to-day operations of a big corporation... Not only does the MP229 not indicate what trains they might have been assigned to, but it really also only indicates the person to whom they were assigned for "maintenance". This would be equivalent to the "boilerwash" type of maintenance (as applied to specific engines, steam, electric, OR diesel-electric), I have been told. Not necessarily the yard or facility in which they worked, or that which they spent most of their time, even. For example, the code each engine carried relates to the individual to which the engine was assigned for maintenance, which the engine might only report to (as example) once every month/months. The engine may have spent all the remainder of that time (while not either enroute to or from the maintenance facility or actually there getting maintained) at a completely different location within the region. Again, it depended on a lot of things. And this assumes also that there was no "balancing" of regional assignments occuring in between MP229 dates. If in reality the PRR needed some more drag freight power in the Pittsburgh Region on such and such a date, and there was a surplus elsewhere, then those engines might have been temporarily reassigned. This IS visible in some places in the MP229 where you see a Chesapeake Region DS 4-4-10 (BS10) reassigned elsewhere. Why? Because they had no need for it in the Chesapeake and did in Pgh? Possibly. I think the value of the MP229 is as a general guide, but don't go giving yourselves headaches about this stuff. If you want to use a set of Sharks on your Middle Division layout, do it! Who cares if they were assigned for maintenace to Crestline! They were all over Pittsburgh! In fact, they were all over other parts of the system. The fact is that the traffic dictated engine assignments, not the other way around. In addition, another interesting thing is that the VAST majority of photos seem to disagree with the rigid application of the MP229s! YES, PRR diesels, particularly transfers and road freights, went all over the place. Granted, shifters usually stayed within their region, and most likely in close proximity to their assigned maintenance point, but you have more flexibility than the concept would seem to indicate. Have fun, Elden P.S. If you want to talk about the Mon Div/Br, just drop me a line. -----Original Message----- From: Doug Kisala [mailto:dougkisala@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 10:46 PM To: Jerry @ Pennsyrr Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] MP229 Question Jerry, list, MP229 doesn't indicate which train(s) each engine is intended to work on. Like everyone else, I'm curious to find this information myself. Doug --- "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" wrote, in part: > > > Other than listing the road numbers of all locos > assigned to a particular division, does the detail go so far as to indicate which train(s) each loco > protects? __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C28A87.855D56A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] MP229 Question

Doug, Jerry, and all;
        The = following info has been related to me by various folks over the years, = and like all PRR info, should be not considered definitive, just that = it did happen this way as part of normal day-to-day operations of a big = corporation...

        Not only = does the MP229 not indicate what trains they might have been assigned = to, but it really also only indicates the person to whom they were = assigned for "maintenance".  This would be equivalent to = the "boilerwash" type of maintenance (as applied to specific = engines, steam, electric, OR diesel-electric), I have been told.  = Not necessarily the yard or facility in which they worked, or that = which they spent most of their time, even.

        For = example, the code each engine carried relates to the individual to = which the engine was assigned for maintenance, which the engine might = only report to (as example) once every month/months.  The engine = may have spent all the remainder of that time (while not either enroute = to or from the maintenance facility or actually there getting = maintained) at a completely different location within the region.  = Again, it depended on a lot of things.  And this assumes also that = there was no "balancing" of regional assignments occuring in = between MP229 dates.  If in reality the PRR needed some more drag = freight power in the Pittsburgh Region on such and such a date, and = there was a surplus elsewhere, then those engines might have been = temporarily reassigned.  This IS visible in some places in the = MP229 where you see a Chesapeake Region DS 4-4-10 (BS10) reassigned = elsewhere.  Why?  Because they had no need for it in the = Chesapeake and did in Pgh?  Possibly.

        I think = the value of the MP229 is as a general guide, but don't go giving = yourselves headaches about this stuff.  If you want to use a set = of Sharks on your Middle Division layout, do it!  Who cares if = they were assigned for maintenace to Crestline!  They were all = over Pittsburgh!  In fact, they were all over other parts of the = system.  The fact is that the traffic dictated engine assignments, = not the other way around.  In addition, another interesting thing = is that the VAST majority of photos seem to disagree with the rigid = application of  the MP229s!  YES, PRR diesels, particularly = transfers and road freights, went all over the place.  Granted, = shifters usually stayed within their region, and most likely in close = proximity to their assigned maintenance point, but you have more = flexibility than the concept would seem to indicate.

Have fun,
Elden
P.S. If you want to talk about the Mon Div/Br, just = drop me a line.

-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Kisala [mailto:dougkisala@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 10:46 PM
To: Jerry @ Pennsyrr
Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] MP229 Question


Jerry, list,

MP229 doesn't indicate which train(s) each engine is
intended to work on.  Like everyone else, I'm = curious
to find this information myself.

Doug


--- "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" = <jerry@pennsyrr.com> wrote, in
part:
> >
> Other than listing the road numbers of all = locos
> assigned to a particular division, does the = detail
go so far as to indicate which train(s) each = loco
> protects?


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2

---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C28A87.855D56A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Mineral Traffic in 1954 (and later!) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:30:03 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C28A71.228E8BE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Mineral Traffic in 1954 (and later!)Elden, You forget that PRR had a large ore dock at Ashtabula, and large amounts = of ore originated there that moved to steel mills at Youngstown and = Pittsburgh. There were a lot of coal mines on the Cadiz Branch in = Eastern Ohio moving coal to mills in Western Pa. and Eastern Ohio. Large = amounts of limestone still originate on the former PRR line that ran = from Crestline to Toledo that moved East to the same mills. I spent 7 = months as the PRR's rate clerk in the traffic department in Cleveland in = 1964 and had a good friend in the Coal Department.. Gregg Mahlkov. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: ELDEN GATWOOD=20 To: 'Al Buchan' ; 'PRR-Talk LIST'=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 1:55 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Mineral Traffic in 1954 (and later!) Al, Bill, and all;=20 Can I ask some additional general questions about traffic a little = further west; Pittsburgh?=20 I understand that many of the Pittsburgh mills received their coal = from the SW Pa steel company-owned coal mines. Although much of this = came down river by barge, some came via PRR rails. Some of the SW = Pa-generated coal in fact was shipped out of Shire Oaks, thru Pitcairn, = and on to Bethlehem in Johnstown. I am not aware of any coal that was = coming into this area from elsewhere (makes sense). But is this true? If ore by the 60's was coming out of Phila, was some small amount = also coming off the lakes? Wasn't USSteel still mining out of = Minnesota, putting it on boats and offloading for shipment into Pgh via = the B&LE and URR? Did PRR have a similar arrangement still in place? = Weren't there movements still being made of ore coming out of Whiskey = Island (Cleveland)? Were they back-hauling at all on these movements, = assuming they were using hoppers? Given that the jennies were not being = used for coal, did they always go back to Phila mty? What was the PRR = rationale on the use of these cars since they were limited to = single-product/one-way movements (generally-I mean they were not = designed for efficient hauling of coal, after all!)? Did any of the = jennies go to the lakes? As an aside, I still find lots of pellets = along the right-of-way all the way up the Monongahela branch to where = Wheeling-Pitt must have received ore shipments from the PRR. Does this = make sense? =20 Given the amount of coal traffic originating on the Mon, does it = not seem sensible that the PRR would have tended to use hoppers in the = ore traffic so that they would have had a backhaul (bituminous coal to = Phila for boat shipment elsewhere)? And where was the limestone (and other fluxing agents) being used = in Pgh coming from? I remember lots of B&O and Reading hoppers, as well = as two-bay PRR hoppers, coming from the east into Pitcairn with loads = (not to the top!)of crushed limestone, manganese, and other stuff for = the furnaces. Where were these guys originating? It seemed that by my = time, some of this additive stuff was being shipped in in covered = hoppers (H30s, H33s, H34s) as well as foreign stuff (B&O). Does anyone = know anything about this? I look forward to any insight you can provide!=20 Thanks,=20 Elden=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C28A71.228E8BE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Mineral Traffic in 1954 (and = later!)
Elden,
 
You forget that PRR had a large ore dock at = Ashtabula, and=20 large amounts of ore originated there that moved to steel mills at = Youngstown=20 and Pittsburgh. There were a lot of coal mines on the Cadiz Branch in = Eastern=20 Ohio moving coal to mills in Western Pa. and Eastern Ohio. Large amounts = of=20 limestone still originate on the former PRR line that ran from Crestline = to=20 Toledo that moved East to the same mills. I spent 7 months as the PRR's = rate=20 clerk in the traffic department in Cleveland in 1964 and had a good = friend in=20 the Coal Department..
 
Gregg Mahlkov.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 ELDEN=20 GATWOOD
To: 'Al Buchan' ; 'PRR-Talk = LIST'=20
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, = 2002 1:55=20 PM
Subject: RE: [PRR] Mineral = Traffic in=20 1954 (and later!)

Al, Bill, and all;
Can I = ask some=20 additional general questions about traffic a little further west;=20 Pittsburgh?
I understand that many of the = Pittsburgh=20 mills received their coal from the SW Pa steel company-owned coal = mines. =20 Although much of this came down river by barge, some came via PRR = rails. =20 Some of the SW Pa-generated coal in fact was shipped out of Shire = Oaks, thru=20 Pitcairn, and on to Bethlehem in Johnstown.  I am not aware of = any coal=20 that was coming into this area from elsewhere (makes sense).  But = is this=20 true?

  If ore by the 60's was coming out of Phila, = was some=20 small amount also coming off the lakes?  Wasn't USSteel still = mining out=20 of Minnesota, putting it on boats and offloading for shipment into Pgh = via the=20 B&LE and URR?  Did PRR have a similar arrangement still in=20 place?  Weren't there movements still being made of ore coming = out of=20 Whiskey Island (Cleveland)?  Were they back-hauling at all on = these=20 movements, assuming they were using hoppers?  Given that the = jennies were=20 not being used for coal, did they always go back to Phila mty?  = What was=20 the PRR rationale on the use of these cars since they were limited to=20 single-product/one-way movements (generally-I mean they were not = designed for=20 efficient hauling of coal, after all!)?  Did any of the jennies = go to the=20 lakes?  As an aside, I still find lots of pellets along the = right-of-way=20 all the way up the Monongahela branch to where Wheeling-Pitt must have = received ore shipments from the PRR.  Does this make sense?  =

   Given the amount of coal traffic = originating on=20 the Mon, does it not seem sensible that the PRR would have tended to = use=20 hoppers in the ore traffic so that they would have had a backhaul = (bituminous=20 coal to Phila for boat shipment elsewhere)?

   And where was the limestone (and other = fluxing=20 agents) being used in Pgh coming from?  I remember lots of = B&O and=20 Reading hoppers, as well as two-bay PRR hoppers, coming from the east = into=20 Pitcairn with loads (not to the top!)of crushed limestone, manganese, = and=20 other stuff for the furnaces.  Where were these guys = originating? =20 It seemed that by my time, some of this additive stuff was being = shipped in in=20 covered hoppers (H30s, H33s, H34s) as well as foreign stuff = (B&O). =20 Does anyone know anything about this?

   I look forward to any insight you can=20 provide!
Thanks,
Elden=20

------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C28A71.228E8BE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:28:20 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Mineral Traffic in 1954 (and later!) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_jx7UmBB3AyCVlwX4CidG8w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Elden, et al., Yes there was still a lot of ex-lake ore coming out of Cleveland in the 60's, but mostly in the form of taconite pellets as I recall. I think Ashtabula might have still be an active ore dock at that time, but I would have to dig back into my archives to verify. Off the top of my head I forget - too darn long ago that I was on the Lake Division. A lot of ex-lake ore was coming out of the B&LE's Conneaut dock also and a fair amount was being interchanged to the PRR at Shenango on the E&P. The Cleveland coal dock closed in 1962, Erie in 1964 so the PRR coal you're talking about was going mostly to Ashtabula for transloading. The PRR had an agreement with the NYC that permitted to movement of mty hoppers on the LS&MS between Sandusky and Erie so as to minimize the PRR's having to run back into the interior of Ohio to reposition mty coal hoppers for ore loads. If my memory serves me right some of the limestone was out from around Toledo. I remember TM2 (Toledo-Mingo) wrecking one night on the Bayard Branch at East Rochester, OH and we had limestone of all types all over the landscape. Even took out a through plate girder bridge in the process. I think some of it might have also been local to the furnace. The type of car to use in hauling iron ore is primarily a function of what type of unloading facilities are at the receiving mill and what type of cars are available at or near the docks at the time an ore boat is ready to unload. The balance of car supply at a combination coal and ore dock was a tricky affair. Hauling coal north (west) and ore south (east) to and from the lakes was the best of both worlds and the B&LE was a master at balancing this traffic. Of course that was it's predominant traffic. The timing of ore boat and coal boat arrivals was sometimes a problem for car supply. When a coal boat showed up it needed to be loaded, stat. When an ore boat arrived its load could always be put in ground storage, but this was not usually desirable because it meant double handling. But it was done on certain occasions for specific reasons. All of this was coordinated by the Coal and Ore Exchange in Cleveland. Al --Boundary_(ID_jx7UmBB3AyCVlwX4CidG8w) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Elden, et al.,
 
Yes there was still a lot of ex-lake ore coming out of Cleveland in the 60's, but mostly in the form of taconite pellets as I recall. I think Ashtabula might have still be an active ore dock at that time, but I would have to dig back into my archives to verify. Off the top of my head I forget - too darn long ago that I was on the Lake Division. A lot of ex-lake ore was coming out of the B&LE's Conneaut dock also and a fair amount was being interchanged to the PRR at Shenango on the E&P. The Cleveland coal dock closed in 1962, Erie in 1964 so the PRR coal you're talking about was going mostly to Ashtabula for transloading. The PRR had an agreement with the NYC that permitted to movement of mty hoppers on the LS&MS between Sandusky and Erie so as to minimize the PRR's having to run back into the interior of Ohio to reposition mty coal hoppers for ore loads.
 
If my memory serves me right some of the limestone was out from around Toledo. I remember TM2 (Toledo-Mingo) wrecking one night on the Bayard Branch at East Rochester, OH and we had limestone of all types all over the landscape. Even took out a through plate girder bridge in the process.
I think some of it might have also been local to the furnace.
 
The type of car to use in hauling iron ore is primarily a function of what type of unloading facilities are at the receiving mill and what type of cars are available at or near the docks at the time an ore boat is ready to unload. The balance of car supply at a combination coal and ore dock was a tricky affair. Hauling coal north (west) and ore south (east) to and from the lakes was the best of both worlds and the B&LE was a master at balancing this traffic. Of course that was it's predominant traffic. The timing of ore boat and coal boat arrivals was sometimes a problem for car supply. When a coal boat showed up it needed to be loaded, stat. When an ore boat arrived its load could always be put in ground storage, but this was not usually desirable because it meant double handling. But it was done on certain occasions for specific reasons. All of this was coordinated by the Coal and Ore Exchange in Cleveland.
 
Al
 
 
--Boundary_(ID_jx7UmBB3AyCVlwX4CidG8w)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:31:38 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Mineral Traffic in 1954 (and later!) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_/cum37QyvqKtyoSscE1GyA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT With Greg in traffic, Bill in the mechanical and myself in the MW and later operations planning department, if we all got together we could tell one heck of a story. Al --Boundary_(ID_/cum37QyvqKtyoSscE1GyA) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
With Greg in traffic, Bill in the mechanical and myself in the MW and later operations planning department, if we all got together we could tell one heck of a story.
 
Al
--Boundary_(ID_/cum37QyvqKtyoSscE1GyA)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:52:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Challenger K4s List, I seen a pic of the pre-production model of the Challenger Imports 1940 Streamlined K4 in the Dec. MR. Not much details about the loco. Checked Challenger's website and not much more there. Bottom line- Anyone know what this K4 will cost? I hate to ask but gota know. A guess would be 1600.00? TIA, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Mineral Traffic in 1954 (and later!) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 15:44:27 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C28AA5.705FF910 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Oh man, I am salivating now! Please do so! Maybe this has the makings of a convention talk? -----Original Message----- From: Al Buchan [mailto:abbuchan1@comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 2:32 PM To: 'Gregg Mahlkov'; ELDEN GATWOOD; 'PRR-Talk LIST' Subject: RE: [PRR] Mineral Traffic in 1954 (and later!) With Greg in traffic, Bill in the mechanical and myself in the MW and later operations planning department, if we all got together we could tell one heck of a story. Al ------_=_NextPart_001_01C28AA5.705FF910 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Message
Oh man, I am salivating now!  Please do so!
Maybe this has the makings of a convention talk?
-----Original Message-----
From: Al Buchan [mailto:abbuchan1@comcast.net]
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 2:32 PM
To: 'Gregg Mahlkov'; ELDEN GATWOOD; 'PRR-Talk LIST'
Subject: RE: [PRR] Mineral Traffic in 1954 (and later!)

With Greg in traffic, Bill in the mechanical and myself in the MW and later operations planning department, if we all got together we could tell one heck of a story.
 
Al
------_=_NextPart_001_01C28AA5.705FF910-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Challenger K4s Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 18:48:17 -0500 Based on normal brass mark-ups, the MSRP for this engine should be around $1525.00. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: Gary Mittner To: PRR-Modeling@egroups.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 5:56 PM Subject: [PRR] Challenger K4s List, I seen a pic of the pre-production model of the Challenger Imports 1940 Streamlined K4 in the Dec. MR. Not much details about the loco. Checked Challenger's website and not much more there. Bottom line- Anyone know what this K4 will cost? I hate to ask but gota know. A guess would be 1600.00? TIA, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Cedco calendar picture for November Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 21:59:30 +0000 I just looked closely at the Cedco calendar November picture of two SD45's on Horsehoe curve with the caption they were struggling westward. It dawned on me they aren't westbound they are helpers on the rear of an eastbound train as they are on the second track from the inside of the curve and there is a cabin car clearly visible bewteen the second engine and the train. Cedco strikes again! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 19:44:52 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Mineral Traffic in 1954 In a message dated 11/12/02 11:27:26 AM Central Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << But since the Bowser H21a's need weight added, it's a problem to model empty trains! >> Jerry, I picked up some weight by using the steel weights as a pattern to cut out lead sheet replacements. Intermountain metal wheelsets added a little as well. HO, but principle should apply in N as well. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 20:23:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Cedco calendar picture for November I noticed that also. I guess they (Cedco) didn't see the red markers on the nose and the headlight was out. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 17:43:27 -0800 Subject: [PRR] PRR engines on New York Division 1 March 1954 Hi Doug and Christophe, As Doug began to hint at, a lot of the steam and electric power was limited to very, very specific routes. The steam passenger power (E6s, G5s, K4s) would have been limited to NY&LB runs, possibly as far east as Exchange Place, and also on Trenton-to-seashore runs. B1 world have been seen exclusively in Sunnyside Yard. DD1 was limited to third-rail territory. O1a, O1c seem to have seen a lot of use hauling Lehigh Valley trains between Penn STation and the LV NK tower, where the trains were handed off to the LV. GG1, R1 were the passenger train work-horses, as well as freight-hauling GG1 locos. L6 was seen only as a switcher in Sunnyside Yard >Rail motor cars 4658, 4660, 4666, 4668, and 4669 were >also assigned to the New York Division. So where were the rail motor cars used? Does anyone know? - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:12:57 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article As to whether MR is still worth it, I can see the point of the question. More and more, it's becoming mostly a showplace for fine photography. Very seldom any more do we see real advances in the state of the art, techniques, and so on. It all comes back to "they print what they can get." Of course, years ago, many of the advances came from Editor Linn Westcott himself! Things like Twin-T, first transistor throttle, L-girder construction, hardshell scenery . . . Anyway, at least it's not produced by Time-Warner or somebody like that. In that case we'd probably see ads for Viagra! John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:39:50 +0000 I have seen a steady decline in the company starting with the death of Al Kalmbach. I can remember when the new items reviewed were purchased at hobby shops to insure that the quality of the sample represented what was being sold. Now the only products that get reviewed are the freebies that producers have to fork over for the publicity MR can provide. I am highly skeptical when I see a brass sanding tower for four figures reviewed and then see the same item show up on Hedigers layout. Either they pay employees far more than I think or there are perks to the job. In the meantime the cost of the magazine keeps escalating and the quality is declining. The current philosopy seems to be featuring the guys who have bought the most P2K and Kato engines. I dropped my subscription for ten years and only bought the issues that had information on the PRR or other items I thought I would be interested in. Since my local hobby shop owner has retired I have renewed ny subscription but I sure wish there was an alternative as I would drop MR in a heartbeat. > As to whether MR is still worth it, I can see the point of the > question. More and more, it's becoming mostly a showplace for > fine photography. Very seldom any more do we see real advances > in the state of the art, techniques, and so on. It all comes back to > "they print what they can get." Of course, years ago, many of the > advances came from Editor Linn Westcott himself! Things like > Twin-T, first transistor throttle, L-girder construction, hardshell > scenery . . . Anyway, at least it's not produced by Time-Warner or > somebody like that. In that case we'd probably see ads for Viagra! > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:24:31 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article OK gang, this is getting waaaay tangential >Now the only products that get reviewed are the freebies that producers >have to fork over for the publicity MR can provide. I am highly skeptical >when >I see a brass sanding tower for four figures reviewed and then see the same >item show up on Hedigers layout. Either they pay employees far more than I >think or there are perks to the job. AFAIK, it has been a long standing policy of MR to accept freebies for review and then for employees to take them home or for them to go to MR's layout...heck in many cases, they've spent some time building a kit! This obviously means that what is interesting to them gets grabbed for review. Another "unwritten rule" was "if you can't say something nice, don't review it". However I had noticed some pretty critical (not cranky, but pointing out factual problems) reviews over the past two years, mostly penned by Andy Sperandeo...notice who ISN'T editor of MR anymore? IMHO, the editorial quality dipped with the rapid departure of Andy Sperandeo, and that may be just breaking in a new editor...I've noticed lots more typos, factual slips and other errors. In addition, I would expect Andy to recognize the inconsistency in having a modern K4 in old style paint, and to either not use the photo, or reshoot it. The new kid (Tony?), is from the toy train set and while he isn't anti-prototype, he isn't the dyed in the wool prototype modeler that Andy is, so he just wouldn't know, or maybe not even care... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:27:03 -0500 I finally received my copies of MR and "Trains" in today's mail. All I can say is that the layout in question looks good, very good, compared to many featured in the past, and it IS a representation of the PRR, not UP or BNSF. I think much of the criticism here has been unwarranted and nitpicking in nature. Remember the parable about "sour grapes'? As to MR's direction, I think Kalmbach is thrashing around, trying to stem the loss of readership without realizing that it has affected ALL magazines, and "dumbing down" MR (and Trains) is not going to get those readers back. No printed material is adequately proofread these days. Spellcheckers and "syntax checkers" are sure not BS proof. I get some real bellylaughs from the spellchecker on my machine. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:12 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article > As to whether MR is still worth it, I can see the point of the > question. More and more, it's becoming mostly a showplace for > fine photography. Very seldom any more do we see real advances > in the state of the art, techniques, and so on. It all comes back to > "they print what they can get." Of course, years ago, many of the > advances came from Editor Linn Westcott himself! Things like > Twin-T, first transistor throttle, L-girder construction, hardshell > scenery . . . Anyway, at least it's not produced by Time-Warner or > somebody like that. In that case we'd probably see ads for Viagra! > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:38:49 -0600 I think one of the real problems with the model railroading hobby is that it is aging and not attracting many young people. I'm sure that MR realizes this in its marketing demographics, and is trying to adjust to attract younger readers. I think their "World's Greatest Hobby" campaign is part of this effort. From our perspective, the quality of the magazine has deteriorated, but from Kalmbach's perspective, the decrease in circulation is life threatening. I also think Trains has gone down hill. I don't think the editor of that magazine has any feel for railroading whatsoever, certainly not passenger service, for which I suspect he has never ridden on a train! -----Original Message----- From: Gregg Mahlkov [mailto:mahlkov@gtcom.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 4:27 PM To: bobsin@nac.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article I finally received my copies of MR and "Trains" in today's mail. All I can say is that the layout in question looks good, very good, compared to many featured in the past, and it IS a representation of the PRR, not UP or BNSF. I think much of the criticism here has been unwarranted and nitpicking in nature. Remember the parable about "sour grapes'? As to MR's direction, I think Kalmbach is thrashing around, trying to stem the loss of readership without realizing that it has affected ALL magazines, and "dumbing down" MR (and Trains) is not going to get those readers back. No printed material is adequately proofread these days. Spellcheckers and "syntax checkers" are sure not BS proof. I get some real bellylaughs from the spellchecker on my machine. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:12 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article > As to whether MR is still worth it, I can see the point of the > question. More and more, it's becoming mostly a showplace for > fine photography. Very seldom any more do we see real advances > in the state of the art, techniques, and so on. It all comes back to > "they print what they can get." Of course, years ago, many of the > advances came from Editor Linn Westcott himself! Things like > Twin-T, first transistor throttle, L-girder construction, hardshell > scenery . . . Anyway, at least it's not produced by Time-Warner or > somebody like that. In that case we'd probably see ads for Viagra! > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:56:22 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article --part1_129.1afc3e11.2b0440a6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/13/2002 5:29:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: > No printed material is adequately proofread these days. Spellcheckers and > "syntax checkers" are sure not BS proof. I get some real bellylaughs from > the spellchecker on my machine. > In my leaning tower of "things-to-do" is to ride _Trains_ for using "moray" for "moire" on p. 62 of the October 2002 issue to describe the new NJT paint job (the motors run on the former PRR, so topic is still there). Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_129.1afc3e11.2b0440a6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/13/2002 5:29:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes:


No printed material is adequately proofread these days. Spellcheckers and
"syntax checkers" are sure not BS proof. I get some real bellylaughs from
the spellchecker on my machine.


In my leaning tower of "things-to-do" is to ride _Trains_ for using "moray"
for "moire" on p. 62 of the October 2002 issue to describe the new NJT
paint job (the motors run on the former PRR, so topic is still there).

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_129.1afc3e11.2b0440a6_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:57:13 -0500 Gee, didn't the Viagra run on the NYC? Lew Matt :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:12 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article > As to whether MR is still worth it, I can see the point of the > question. More and more, it's becoming mostly a showplace for > fine photography. Very seldom any more do we see real advances > in the state of the art, techniques, and so on. It all comes back to > "they print what they can get." Of course, years ago, many of the > advances came from Editor Linn Westcott himself! Things like > Twin-T, first transistor throttle, L-girder construction, hardshell > scenery . . . Anyway, at least it's not produced by Time-Warner or > somebody like that. In that case we'd probably see ads for Viagra! > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:28:33 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] New Item on the Web site I have added a new page on the web site. A photo gallery of pictures from my collection. I will be adding to it as times goes on. http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/photo_gallery.htm Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PCL] BLI Hudson Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:54:21 -0500 Forwarded from the Passenger Car List, a review of the Broadway Limited Class J1e Hudson by Alex Schneider: The test train consisted of eight Rivarossi or similar passenger cars, three MDC express reefers, one Ambroid reefer on CV trucks. Most of the Rivarossi wheels were replaced with 33" metal wheels (NWSL, Kadee, etc.), the size chosen to conform to the tread diameter of the original wheels so I did not need to modify coupler mounting heights nor trim brake shoes. The test train was assembled from whatever was handy and I did not attempt to find my heaviest or worst-rolling cars. As previously mentioned, grade was 2% (1" in 4 feet). However some additional resistance was introduced by curves of approximately 36" radius. Couplers on Rivarossi cars were truck mounted McHenrys. Couplers between two of the MDC reefers were NMRA (I use them as adapter cars for visiting cars or engines not equipped with Kadees.) I reserved this engine at my local hobby shop months ago, and picked it up last Friday when they called me. Alex Schneider ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I received my BLI Hudson last Thursday, and had the opportunity to test the model during the Rensselaer Model Railroad Society's quarterly operating session on the New England, Berkshire and Western. Appearance: I obtained one of the unlettered versions, as the model is not offered in postwar NYC lettering. (Before you NYC-phobes start cursing me, I will be modeling Englewood after retiring from the Navy, and will need a good stable of NYC and RI power to go along with the Pennsy locomotives.) While not as highly detailed as a comparable Key offering (which would set you back $1K), the detailing is excellent, and accurately captures the appearance of the prototype. A nice touch is that the running gear isn't shiny, making weathering much easier. DCC: The locomotive comes with a pre-programmed sound decoder set on the default locomotive number setting of "3." I was able to operate the locomotive complete with sound immediately after putting it on the track. Sound quality is excellent, though the default sound settings are quite loud! Operation: The locomotive ran smoothly, though some gear noise was present at first. Turning on the sound drowned out the gear noise, though! ;-) We put the locomotive on the point of Train #34, the northbound Richelieu Shore Express, 9 cars consisting of an Athearn Express Reefer (a quick and dirty conversion to resemble an NYC express reefer), Athearn Baggage (NYC), Roundhouse Models brass NYC 70 ft Heavyweight Coach (NEB&W), Eastern Car Works Osgood-Bradley ("American Flyer") coach (through coach off of the B&M), Walthers Budd coach (NYC), Walthers Budd dinner (NYC), Bachmann 8-1-2 Pullman (NYC), Rivarossi 12-1 Pullman (NYC), and a Rivarossi Budd Observation (NYC). (Like many of you, we're still working on getting more accurate passenger cars on the layout - passenger cars are one of the last things all of us have to make do with available models more often than not due to the unique nature of each railroad's equipment). Total weight of the train: 55.75 ounces. The locomotive easily took the train up a long 2% grade from Cohoes to Summit. (Trackplan at http://railroad.union.rpi.edu/images/trackplans/Plan-of-layout.JPG) IMHO, this model is an excellent value for the price: a good looking, excellent running model with a pre-installed sound decoder that's ready to go out of the box. Count me in for an M1! Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Challenger K4s Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 20:58:00 -0500 Gary, A paid reservation ($30) will get you this model at www.ballsofbrass.com for $1,337.15. I've purchased from BOB for over 15 years without a single problem. BTW, $3,542.90 will get you the complete 7-car South Wind including streamlined K4s #2665. Jerry Breon Reading, PA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 5:52 PM Subject: [PRR] Challenger K4s > List, > > I seen a pic of the pre-production model of the Challenger Imports > 1940 Streamlined K4 in the Dec. MR. Not much details about the loco. > Checked Challenger's website and not much more there. Bottom line- > Anyone know what this K4 will cost? I hate to ask but gota know. A guess > would be 1600.00? TIA, ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 21:40:14 -0500 Let us hope that your musings are not readily heard. Many of us fit the demographic :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:12 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article > As to whether MR is still worth it, I can see the point of the > question. More and more, it's becoming mostly a showplace for > fine photography. Very seldom any more do we see real advances > in the state of the art, techniques, and so on. It all comes back to > "they print what they can get." Of course, years ago, many of the > advances came from Editor Linn Westcott himself! Things like > Twin-T, first transistor throttle, L-girder construction, hardshell > scenery . . . Anyway, at least it's not produced by Time-Warner or > somebody like that. In that case we'd probably see ads for Viagra! > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 22:39:16 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article Bob- I can't agree with you more. The quality has definitely been steadily decreasing as the price continues to increase. I, like you only purchase the issues that have relavent articles. The total number of issues I purchase is still less than the yearly subscription. The mag seems to be 1 big advertisement anymore. gregv -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:40 PM To: PRR-Talk; bobsin@nac.net Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article I have seen a steady decline in the company starting with the death of Al Kalmbach. I can remember when the new items reviewed were purchased at hobby shops to insure that the quality of the sample represented what was being sold. Now the only products that get reviewed are the freebies that producers have to fork over for the publicity MR can provide. I am highly skeptical when I see a brass sanding tower for four figures reviewed and then see the same item show up on Hedigers layout. Either they pay employees far more than I think or there are perks to the job. In the meantime the cost of the magazine keeps escalating and the quality is declining. The current philosopy seems to be featuring the guys who have bought the most P2K and Kato engines. I dropped my subscription for ten years and only bought the issues that had information on the PRR or other items I thought I would be interested in. Since my local hobby shop owner has retired I have renewed ny subscription but I sure wish there was an alternative as I would drop MR in a heartbeat. > As to whether MR is still worth it, I can see the point of the > question. More and more, it's becoming mostly a showplace for > fine photography. Very seldom any more do we see real advances > in the state of the art, techniques, and so on. It all comes back to > "they print what they can get." Of course, years ago, many of the > advances came from Editor Linn Westcott himself! Things like > Twin-T, first transistor throttle, L-girder construction, hardshell > scenery . . . Anyway, at least it's not produced by Time-Warner or > somebody like that. In that case we'd probably see ads for Viagra! > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:26:54 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Work Equipment Quite some time ago Rick Tipton mentioned my use of the term "Work Equipment" as opposed to "MW Equipment." Well I have finally gotten around to expressing some thoughts on the subject. Many people loosely applied the term "maintenance-of-way" to all equipment used in company service. Although the MW department did have a lot of work equipment it was not the only department that did. The PRR "work equipment" used in company service was in fact assigned to other departments that shared equal stature with the MW department, to wit the Material and Stores Department and the Mechanical Department. I offer the following as a general guideline: Most wreck derricks and wreck trains were assigned to the mechanical department as they were used to right and rerail equipment and the mechanical folks were responsible for clearing wrecks. However, most cranes (locomotive, Burro and crawler) were assigned to the MW department as they were used to perform track maintenance work. Most camp cars (class XL and passenger) were assigned to the MW department as they were used to house the roving maintenance gangs. However, these same style cars used in wreck trains were assigned to the mechanical department. The camp cars in the MW department were further assigned to bridge and building (B&B) gangs, communication and signal (C&S) gangs or track gangs. However, these further distributions are usually difficult to discern. Equipment used in wire trains and the motor cars converted to tower cars were assigned to the electric traction (ET) department. Company service boxcars (gray or yellow) were typically found in MW service as tool and supply or material and supply cars. However, some gray cars were assigned to the material and stores folks. The freight car red boxcars (S cars) were typically assigned to the material and stores department for the transport of supplies. Company service flat cars were typically assigned to the MW department, except the wheel cars, which were in the stores department transporting wheel sets for the mechanical guys. Gons were also mostly with the MW folks. Company service hoppers were typically assigned to the MW department, for ballast service. Although, some were used to haul ashes. Flangers, snowplows and Jordan spreaders were in the MW department. Tank cars used for the movement of new and used POL products and covered hoppers used for sand service were assigned to the stores department. Company service cabins were assigned to either the MW department for work train use or the mechanical department for wreck train use. The poling cars were probably assigned to the Chief of Transportation for use in yard shifting. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Work Equipment Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 09:56:42 -0500 We had a pretty good fleet of tank cars hauling diesel fuel from So. Philadelphia to (most) everywhere. Switchers were usually fueled by local fuel dealers in their trucks. The used lube oil was hauled in company tank cars to So. Altoona for reclamation. As you mentioned, the stores department used a bunch of flat end X-29s painted grey that were tacked onto the rear of many passenger trains passing through Altoona. These usually contained journal bearings that had been re-babbited at S. Altoona foundries plus rewound traction motors, and other rebuilt diesel parts. S. Altoona was an interesting place. It was the one place on the PRR where the men worked piecework and boy did they work! Every movement counted twice. They had one eye on their work and the other eye on their paycheck! Them were the days. WDV PS. Somewhere I have a semi-complete list of all the Pullman cars we converted to MW service, names versus MW numbers. Will publish it when I get around to it, if it hasn't been done before. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Al Buchan Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 9:27 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Work Equipment Quite some time ago Rick Tipton mentioned my use of the term "Work Equipment" as opposed to "MW Equipment." Well I have finally gotten around to expressing some thoughts on the subject. Many people loosely applied the term "maintenance-of-way" to all equipment used in company service. Although the MW department did have a lot of work equipment it was not the only department that did. The PRR "work equipment" used in company service was in fact assigned to other departments that shared equal stature with the MW department, to wit the Material and Stores Department and the Mechanical Department. I offer the following as a general guideline: Most wreck derricks and wreck trains were assigned to the mechanical department as they were used to right and rerail equipment and the mechanical folks were responsible for clearing wrecks. However, most cranes (locomotive, Burro and crawler) were assigned to the MW department as they were used to perform track maintenance work. Most camp cars (class XL and passenger) were assigned to the MW department as they were used to house the roving maintenance gangs. However, these same style cars used in wreck trains were assigned to the mechanical department. The camp cars in the MW department were further assigned to bridge and building (B&B) gangs, communication and signal (C&S) gangs or track gangs. However, these further distributions are usually difficult to discern. Equipment used in wire trains and the motor cars converted to tower cars were assigned to the electric traction (ET) department. Company service boxcars (gray or yellow) were typically found in MW service as tool and supply or material and supply cars. However, some gray cars were assigned to the material and stores folks. The freight car red boxcars (S cars) were typically assigned to the material and stores department for the transport of supplies. Company service flat cars were typically assigned to the MW department, except the wheel cars, which were in the stores department transporting wheel sets for the mechanical guys. Gons were also mostly with the MW folks. Company service hoppers were typically assigned to the MW department, for ballast service. Although, some were used to haul ashes. Flangers, snowplows and Jordan spreaders were in the MW department. Tank cars used for the movement of new and used POL products and covered hoppers used for sand service were assigned to the stores department. Company service cabins were assigned to either the MW department for work train use or the mechanical department for wreck train use. The poling cars were probably assigned to the Chief of Transportation for use in yard shifting. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 10:21:20 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Work Equipment In a message dated 11/14/02 8:51:16 AM Central Standard Time, bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com writes: << Will publish it when I get around to it, if it hasn't been done before. >> Pennsy Journal about 18 years ago, but probably worth repeating (and updating for accuracy) for the many who don't have a copy. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 10:22:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Work Equipment Thanks, Al and Bill, for the posts. Both are now in my permanent local file. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:02:43 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article > I also think Trains has gone down hill. I don't think the > editor of that magazine has any feel for railroading whatsoever, > certainly not passenger service, The majority of trains (and RR profits) are in freight, rather than passengers. There are magazines dedicated to passenger service. > for which I suspect he has never ridden on a train! Nor have, i suspect, a majority of his readers... I make no assertion that passenger service ought to be excluded. However for a magazine to write largely of a minority service, or one of the past, may not be advisable. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:30:55 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article > OK gang, this is getting waaaay tangential >>Now the only products that get reviewed are the freebies that producers >>have to fork over for the publicity MR can provide. I am highly skeptical >>when I see a brass sanding tower for four figures reviewed >>and then see the same item show up on Hedigers layout. > AFAIK, it has been a long standing policy of MR to accept freebies for > review and then for employees to take them home or for them to go to MR's > layout...heck in many cases, they've spent some time building a kit! Uhmmmmm. This is more or less universal in all 'interest' mags. It was an open secret (after it came out) that one of the 'best car of the year' awards went, routinely, to whichever car company donated to the relevant automag the nicest, or most, 'demo pool' vehicles. A friend who wrote for pc mags in the early days RAPIDLY found that product reviews always had to be positive, even if only faintly so. I've no clue if the latter applies elsewhere... > This obviously means that what is interesting to them gets > grabbed for review. Another "unwritten rule" was "if you > can't say something nice, don't review it". hmmmmmm best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:19:22 -0600 My statements regarding passenger service were based on an editorial the guy had written several months ago. There are many trade journals available dedicated to freight service. Trains has been a magazine that attempts to bridge the gap between the strictly rade journal approach and railfan approach. At least when Mogan ran the magazine, there was an understanding of the problems of involving passenger service. As for its current coverage of passenger service, I suspect that Trains' readership would fall off much faster if the decision was made to balance coverage in the magazine on the basis of the source of railroad revenues. -----Original Message----- From: davep [mailto:davep@quik.com] Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 12:03 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article > I also think Trains has gone down hill. I don't think the > editor of that magazine has any feel for railroading whatsoever, > certainly not passenger service, The majority of trains (and RR profits) are in freight, rather than passengers. There are magazines dedicated to passenger service. > for which I suspect he has never ridden on a train! Nor have, i suspect, a majority of his readers... I make no assertion that passenger service ought to be excluded. However for a magazine to write largely of a minority service, or one of the past, may not be advisable. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:33:40 -0500 From: bearcreekwest@netscape.net Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article >>Marvin Cadwell wrote >>I think one of the real problems with the model railroading hobby is that >>it is aging and not attracting many young people. One has only to wade through the thread on the article in the December MR and part of the reason becomes obvious. If it ain't perfect, don't even try. Why would young people getting started in the hobby wish to endure this type of environment? Don Luke Tucson, AZ wannabe PRR modeler __________________________________________________________________ The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:07:18 -0500 I find the commentary about the Editor of "Trains" highly amusing, as he the the ONLY Editor the magazine has ever had that actually WORKED in the industry, as a Trainmaster for the KCS! While I don't agree with everything he says, I didn't agree with everything DPM said either, but he sure had a fine command of the English language. The so-called "trade" publications are nothing more than catalogs for the railroad supply industry these days. If you think MR toadies to the model manufacturers and distributors, read "Railway Age" or "Progressive Railroading". Beginning with John Knieling, with whom I also disagreed, "TRAINS" has shown a willingness to tell the emperor he's naked on occasion. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "'davep'" ; Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 2:19 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article > My statements regarding passenger service were based on an editorial the guy > had written several months ago. > > There are many trade journals available dedicated to freight service. > Trains has been a magazine that attempts to bridge the gap between the > strictly rade journal approach and railfan approach. At least when Mogan > ran the magazine, there was an understanding of the problems of involving > passenger service. As for its current coverage of passenger service, I > suspect that Trains' readership would fall off much faster if the decision > was made to balance coverage in the magazine on the basis of the source of > railroad revenues. > > -----Original Message----- > From: davep [mailto:davep@quik.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 12:03 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article > > > > I also think Trains has gone down hill. I don't think the > > > editor of that magazine has any feel for railroading whatsoever, > > > certainly not passenger service, > > The majority of trains (and RR profits) are in freight, rather > than passengers. > There are magazines dedicated to passenger service. > > > for which I suspect he has never ridden on a train! > > Nor have, i suspect, a majority of his readers... > I make no assertion that passenger service ought to be > excluded. However for a magazine to write largely > of a minority service, or one of the past, may not be > advisable. > > best > dwp > > ...the net of a million lies... > Vernor Vinge > There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. > -me > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] December MR PRR article Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:59:03 +0000 I just visited the Trains.com website and they have a feature on this article. In spite of my vast dislike of Kalmbach I have to say that the one picture of Horseshoe posted which isn't in the magazine captures the look of the real thing to me. It is a shot looking right at the viewing area. yes the staircase and the funicular, the grade, parking lot and lower level buildings aren't there (yet?). but it looks good to me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 15:13:29 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article Don sez: >One has only to wade through the thread on the article in the December >MR and part of the reason becomes obvious. If it ain't perfect, don't >even try. Why would young people getting started in the hobby wish to >endure this type of environment? > >Don Luke >Tucson, AZ >wannabe PRR modeler Don, I can see your point, up to a point, which is why I said earlier that the critique ought not to be personal, but factual. For example, the layout was touted as 1950's, yet the paint scheme on that K4 doesn't come close. Why is that important? Well, I have very nearly the same steamer (brass) on my shelf, since when I bought it I had little or no knowledge of PRR steam loco paint. I also bought athearn hw passenger cars lettered PRR (English Model RR Supply), not knowing that the PRR had no cars like those. Did I care when I bought them? Well, I probably wouldn't have purchased them if I had known that they weren't prototypical. So as a neophyte PRR modeler, I would have appreciated the correct info. The concern is that by publishing examples without correcting the factual errors, the magazine promulgates innaccuracies. Sure, its his RR and he can do what he wants...durn tootin, but MR has an editorial responsibility to point out that "the K4 sports an 1930's style paint scheme because the author was fond of it" or something along those lines to avoid misinforming or confusing the "wannabe PRR modeler". I honestly don't see that as something that should scare away a younger modeler, nor do I think a reasoned and well thought out critique ought to have that impact...rather I would hope that it would provide goals to aspire to. We've had this discussion a number of times on this list over the years, and it seems to always boil down to the same issues...its my RR vs. the need to be accurate. I do have to admit that it seems to me the majority of folks in the former camp are lurkers who don't otherwise contribute to this list ;^). I would suggest that we continue as we have, welcoming critiques of published material (as by publishing it, critiques ARE INVITED) but trying hard to ensure that the critiques are strictly factual, and not personal. IF I ever get that layout built, AND MR finds it suitable for a piece, I for one would park my anachronisms on the shelf. That K4 will most likely appear on eBay soon. I could repaint it, but the modern front end is wrong for my layout too :^( (something else I learned later) Now, for that open house, I might just run an anachronism or two...to see how y'all do...you'd be free to try to find them ! Of course, I'm working on getting my reweigh dates to within 40 months prior to June, 1944, so you'd have to look somewhere else for errors (Hehehe!!!). Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR PRR article Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 16:48:08 -0500 When I visited Horseshoe Curve in the mid-1960's, all that was there was a gravel parking lot and a minimal staircase up to track level, where 1361 was parked. So, the funicular??? and lower level buildings??? definitely should not be there in the 1950's. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 3:59 PM Subject: [PRR] December MR PRR article > I just visited the Trains.com website and they have a feature on this article. > In spite of my vast dislike of Kalmbach I have to say that the one picture of > Horseshoe posted which isn't in the magazine captures the look of the real > thing to me. It is a shot looking right at the viewing area. yes the > staircase and the funicular, the grade, parking lot and lower level buildings > aren't there (yet?). but it looks good to me > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:27:26 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Al Buchan's work equipment guidelines In a message dated 11/14/02 4:39:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 8 > Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:39:53 -0500 > From: Al Buchan > Subject: Work Equipment > > Quite some time ago Rick Tipton mentioned my use of the term "Work > Equipment" and opposed to "MW Equipment." > > Well I have finally gotten around to expressing some thoughts on the > subject. Many people loosely applied the term "maintenance-of-way" to > all equipment used in company service. Although the MW department did > have a lot of work equipment it was not the only department that did. > The PRR "work equipment" used in company service was in fact assigned to > other departments that shared equal stature with the MW department, to > wit the Material and Stores Department and the Mechanical Department. > > I offer the following as a general guideline: > > Most wreck derricks and wreck trains were assigned to the mechanical > department as they were used to right and rerail equipment and the > mechanical folks were responsible for clearing wrecks. However, most > cranes (locomotive, Burro and crawler) were assigned to the MW > department as they were used to perform track maintenance work. > > Most camp cars (class XL and passenger) were assigned to the MW > department as they were used to house the roving maintenance gangs. > However, these same style cars used in wreck trains were assigned to the > mechanical department. The camp cars in the MW department were further > assigned to bridge and building (B&B) gangs, communication and signal > (C&S) gangs or track gangs. However, these further distributions are > usually difficult to discern. Equipment used in wire trains and the > motor cars converted to tower cars were assigned to the electric > traction (ET) department. > > Company service boxcars (gray or yellow) were typically found in MW > service as tool and supply or material and supply cars. However, some > gray cars were assigned to the material and stores folks. The freight > car red boxcars (S cars) were typically assigned to the material and > stores department for the transport of supplies. > > Company service flat cars were typically assigned to the MW > department, except the wheel cars, which were in the stores department > transporting wheel sets for the mechanical guys. Gons were also mostly > with the MW folks. > > Company service hoppers were typically assigned to the MW department, > for ballast service. Although, some were used to haul ashes. > > Flangers, snowplows and Jordan spreaders were in the MW department. > > Tank cars used for the movement of new and used POL products and > covered hoppers used for sand service were assigned to the stores > department. > > Company service cabins were assigned to either the MW department for > work train use or the mechanical department for wreck train use. > > The poling cars were probably assigned to the Chief of Transportation > for use in yard shifting. > > Al > Thanks, Al. BTW, my initial question came from an Ian Fischer question. I believe he commented that PRR documentation used the phrase "work equipment" more than it did "maintenance of way equipment". I'm glad he saw fit to sharpen our use of PRR terminology, and I'm glad of your detailed exposition. I'm still not 100% sure of the "rules" for: 1. when a car appears in the gray or yellow dress of work-assigned equipment with the 490,000-series company service number 2. when Lines West company service numbers in the 990,000-series disappeared (notice that cabin numbers, e.g. N6b, lasted in the 980,000-series until the cars were scrapped in the 60's). 3. when a car appears in FCC but with a 490,000-series number (e.g. 'S' cars in company material service). 4. how late it was that revenue cars (e.g. H30 covered hoppers) went into company service (e.g. locomotive sand), but nobody bothered to renumber them out of their revenue numbers. We had an H30 with sand parked at the Fort Wayne roundhouse for the two years I was there (1981-1983), and it was still in its PRR revenue number. Fortunately, we modelers can always rely on the pictures for "correct" usage. Once again, Al, thanks for your guidelines. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 18:27:26 EST Subject: [PRR] Al Buchan's work equipment guidelines --part1_89.20e4056b.2b058b5e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/14/02 4:39:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 8 > Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:39:53 -0500 > From: Al Buchan > Subject: Work Equipment > > Quite some time ago Rick Tipton mentioned my use of the term "Work > Equipment" and opposed to "MW Equipment." > > Well I have finally gotten around to expressing some thoughts on the > subject. Many people loosely applied the term "maintenance-of-way" to > all equipment used in company service. Although the MW department did > have a lot of work equipment it was not the only department that did. > The PRR "work equipment" used in company service was in fact assigned to > other departments that shared equal stature with the MW department, to > wit the Material and Stores Department and the Mechanical Department. > > I offer the following as a general guideline: > > Most wreck derricks and wreck trains were assigned to the mechanical > department as they were used to right and rerail equipment and the > mechanical folks were responsible for clearing wrecks. However, most > cranes (locomotive, Burro and crawler) were assigned to the MW > department as they were used to perform track maintenance work. > > Most camp cars (class XL and passenger) were assigned to the MW > department as they were used to house the roving maintenance gangs. > However, these same style cars used in wreck trains were assigned to the > mechanical department. The camp cars in the MW department were further > assigned to bridge and building (B&B) gangs, communication and signal > (C&S) gangs or track gangs. However, these further distributions are > usually difficult to discern. Equipment used in wire trains and the > motor cars converted to tower cars were assigned to the electric > traction (ET) department. > > Company service boxcars (gray or yellow) were typically found in MW > service as tool and supply or material and supply cars. However, some > gray cars were assigned to the material and stores folks. The freight > car red boxcars (S cars) were typically assigned to the material and > stores department for the transport of supplies. > > Company service flat cars were typically assigned to the MW > department, except the wheel cars, which were in the stores department > transporting wheel sets for the mechanical guys. Gons were also mostly > with the MW folks. > > Company service hoppers were typically assigned to the MW department, > for ballast service. Although, some were used to haul ashes. > > Flangers, snowplows and Jordan spreaders were in the MW department. > > Tank cars used for the movement of new and used POL products and > covered hoppers used for sand service were assigned to the stores > department. > > Company service cabins were assigned to either the MW department for > work train use or the mechanical department for wreck train use. > > The poling cars were probably assigned to the Chief of Transportation > for use in yard shifting. > > Al > Thanks, Al. BTW, my initial question came from an Ian Fischer question. I believe he commented that PRR documentation used the phrase "work equipment" more than it did "maintenance of way equipment". I'm glad he saw fit to sharpen our use of PRR terminology, and I'm glad of your detailed exposition. I'm still not 100% sure of the "rules" for: 1. when a car appears in the gray or yellow dress of work-assigned equipment with the 490,000-series company service number 2. when Lines West company service numbers in the 990,000-series disappeared (notice that cabin numbers, e.g. N6b, lasted in the 980,000-series until the cars were scrapped in the 60's). 3. when a car appears in FCC but with a 490,000-series number (e.g. 'S' cars in company material service). 4. how late it was that revenue cars (e.g. H30 covered hoppers) went into company service (e.g. locomotive sand), but nobody bothered to renumber them out of their revenue numbers. We had an H30 with sand parked at the Fort Wayne roundhouse for the two years I was there (1981-1983), and it was still in its PRR revenue number. Fortunately, we modelers can always rely on the pictures for "correct" usage. Once again, Al, thanks for your guidelines. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_89.20e4056b.2b058b5e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/14/02 4:39:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 8
   Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:39:53 -0500
   From: Al Buchan <abbuchan1@comcast.net>
Subject: Work Equipment

Quite some time ago Rick Tipton mentioned my use of the term "Work
Equipment" and opposed to "MW Equipment."

  Well I have finally gotten around to expressing some thoughts on the
subject.  Many people loosely applied the term "maintenance-of-way" to
all equipment used in company service. Although the MW department did
have a lot of work equipment it was not the only department that did.
The PRR "work equipment" used in company service was in fact assigned to
other departments that shared equal stature with the MW department, to
wit the Material and Stores Department and the Mechanical Department.

  I offer the following as a general guideline:

  Most wreck derricks and wreck trains were assigned to the mechanical
department as they were used to right and rerail equipment and the
mechanical folks were responsible for clearing wrecks. However, most
cranes (locomotive, Burro and crawler) were assigned to the MW
department as they were used to perform track maintenance work.

  Most camp cars (class XL and passenger) were assigned to the MW
department as they were used to house the roving maintenance gangs.
However, these same style cars used in wreck trains were assigned to the
mechanical department. The camp cars in the MW department were further
assigned to bridge and building (B&B) gangs, communication and signal
(C&S) gangs or track gangs. However, these further distributions are
usually difficult to discern. Equipment used in wire trains and the
motor cars converted to tower cars were assigned to the electric
traction (ET) department.

  Company service boxcars (gray or yellow) were typically found in MW
service as tool and supply or material and supply cars. However, some
gray cars were assigned to the material and stores folks. The freight
car red boxcars (S cars) were typically assigned to the material and
stores department for the transport of supplies.

  Company service flat cars were typically assigned to the MW
department, except the wheel cars, which were in the stores department
transporting wheel sets for the mechanical guys. Gons were also mostly
with the MW folks.

  Company service hoppers were typically assigned to the MW department,
for ballast service. Although, some were used to haul ashes.

  Flangers, snowplows and Jordan spreaders were in the MW department.

  Tank cars used for the movement of new and used POL products and
covered hoppers used for sand service were assigned to the stores
department.

  Company service cabins were assigned to either the MW department for
work train use or the mechanical department for wreck train use.

  The poling cars were probably assigned to the Chief of Transportation
for use in yard shifting.

Al


Thanks, Al.  BTW, my initial question came from an Ian Fischer question.  I believe he commented that PRR documentation used the phrase "work equipment" more than it did "maintenance of way equipment".  I'm glad he saw fit to sharpen our use of PRR terminology, and I'm glad of your detailed exposition.

I'm still not 100% sure of the "rules" for:
1. when a car appears in the gray or yellow dress of work-assigned equipment with the 490,000-series company service number
2. when Lines West company service numbers in the 990,000-series disappeared (notice that cabin numbers, e.g. N6b, lasted in the 980,000-series until the cars were scrapped in the 60's).
3. when a car appears in FCC but with a 490,000-series number (e.g. 'S' cars in company material service).
4. how late it was that revenue cars (e.g. H30 covered hoppers) went into company service (e.g. locomotive sand), but nobody bothered to renumber them out of their revenue numbers.  We had an H30 with sand parked at the Fort Wayne roundhouse for the two years I was there (1981-1983), and it was still in its PRR revenue number.

Fortunately, we modelers can always rely on the pictures for "correct" usage.

Once again, Al, thanks for your guidelines.

                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_89.20e4056b.2b058b5e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: v-scarpitti@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] December MR Article Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 23:29:21 +0000 Hey fellows this is supposed to be fun! If TRAINS and any of the trade publications really were doing their job the fiasco at AMTRAK would have been exposed long before GUNN arrived on the scene. TRAINS has become nothing more than an extention of the AMTRAK PR machine. Phillips and Johnston wrote puff pieces to protect their sources; no different than the Philadelphia Inquirer during the Rendell Administration.The trade publications cater to the Consulting Firms who buy the bulk of the adv space. If you want to go to real in-depth reporting look at the Fortune Articles on the PRR during the 30's, 40's and 50's. Anyone with half a brain and anywhere near AMTRAK knew that it was mis-managed and going down the tubes, but TRAINS had ED Elllis as a contributer at the same time he was in charge of the mail and express debacle. Talk about interest conflicts! AMTRAK has become the sacred cow of the rail media. TRAINS could be considered the house organ for NARP. The real "stuff" is found in publications such as the Keystone and other publications considered on the fringe. Where would we all be without the Keystone and its ilk? Three Cheers for Chuck Blardone!!!!!!! Bennettg > My statements regarding passenger service were based on an editorial the guy > had written several months ago. > > There are many trade journals available dedicated to freight service. > Trains has been a magazine that attempts to bridge the gap between the > strictly rade journal approach and railfan approach. At least when Mogan > ran the magazine, there was an understanding of the problems of involving > passenger service. As for its current coverage of passenger service, I > suspect that Trains' readership would fall off much faster if the decision > was made to balance coverage in the magazine on the basis of the source of > railroad revenues. > > -----Original Message----- > From: davep [mailto:davep@quik.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 12:03 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article > > > > I also think Trains has gone down hill. I don't think the > > > editor of that magazine has any feel for railroading whatsoever, > > > certainly not passenger service, > > The majority of trains (and RR profits) are in freight, rather > than passengers. > There are magazines dedicated to passenger service. > > > for which I suspect he has never ridden on a train! > > Nor have, i suspect, a majority of his readers... > I make no assertion that passenger service ought to be > excluded. However for a magazine to write largely > of a minority service, or one of the past, may not be > advisable. > > best > dwp > > ...the net of a million lies... > Vernor Vinge > There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. > -me > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:19:06 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Al Buchan's work equipment guidelines In a message dated 11/14/02 5:47:57 PM, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << Most wreck derricks and wreck trains were assigned to the mechanical > department as they were used to right and rerail equipment and the > mechanical folks were responsible for clearing wrecks. However, most > cranes (locomotive, Burro and crawler) were assigned to the MW > department as they were used to perform track maintenance work. >> While I believe that folks engaged in wreck service were specifically covered by the collective bargaining agreements, I do recall that the wreck train and its equipment were universally referred to as "the hook." Wheels on the ground? Call out "the hook." Engineers in yard service were often able to rerail grounded cars using wooden wedges. It was much faster than calling out the hook. There were engineers in the New York area who, when they retracked a car in this fashion, work that involved nothing more than moving the engine forward at a low speed and at the command of someone on the ground, would put in a time claim for a day's pay at the rate of an Operating Engineer. The Pennsy did not have Operating Engineers, i.e., those who drive/operate construction equipment, but the engineers (BLE, at the time) felt they were due an additional day's pay. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:23:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR Fans Vs. Trains Magazine Are we upset with Trains magazine because they don't cater to the PRR fans? Are we upset with Trains magazine because instead of TrucTrains, they show Double-Stacks. Are we upset with the magazine because they moved on after 1968? No Keystones on the cover of Trains? Or is that a UP shield? K4s or AEM7s? Has Trains magazine changed or we as PRR fans changed? Or have we not changed with the times? So what will it take to make "Trains" magazine great? I think "Trains" is a good magazine. Not a great magazine. Some issues are better than others. But thats just me. That's my 5 cents worth. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Fans Vs. Trains Magazine Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 00:40:46 +0000 I don't care for Trains because I am not interested in the myriad of short lines and conglomerates of today. Believe it or not I find it all very confusing. I enjoy Classic Trains on occasion but I would rather put the money toward the society publications when I can as they give me far more information I can use. > > > Are we upset with Trains magazine because they don't cater to the > PRR fans? Are we upset with Trains magazine because instead of > TrucTrains, they show Double-Stacks. Are we upset with the magazine > because they moved on after 1968? No Keystones on the cover of Trains? > Or is that a UP shield? K4s or AEM7s? > > Has Trains magazine changed or we as PRR fans changed? Or have we > not changed with the times? So what will it take to make "Trains" > magazine great? > > I think "Trains" is a good magazine. Not a great magazine. Some > issues are better than others. But thats just me. That's my 5 cents > worth. > > Dave > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Al Buchan Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:36:31 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] Al Buchan's work equipment guidelines This is in response to some of Rick's questions. I'm still not 100% sure of the "rules" for: 1. when a car appears in the gray or yellow dress of work-assigned equipment with the 490,000-series company service number ----------------------------------------------- If it's a class XL it's most likely in MW camp car or mechanical wreck train service. If it's a class X23 or X26 (usually with windows) it's more than likely in MW service as a tool, tool & supply, or tool & material car. If it's a class X25, X28 or X29 with windows it's more than likely in MW service. If it's a class X28 or X29 without windows it's probably either an MW tool & supply car or in stores department service. If it has steam and communicating lines it's in stores service. Note the "S" symbol really didn't start until later. For example the X28 on page 13 of the current HighLine, although, captioned as being a MW car, is in fact a stores and material car in dedicated service between Wilmington shops and Sunnyside yard hauling mechanical department parts. ============================================== 2. when Lines West company service numbers in the 990,000-series disappeared (notice that cabin numbers, e.g. N6b, lasted in the 980,000-series until the cars were scrapped in the 60's). ---------------------------------------------- Don't know the answer to this yet. ============================================== 3. when a car appears in FCC but with a 490,000-series number (e.g. 'S' cars in company material service). ---------------------------------------------- It's in material and stores department service, includes boxcars, all tank cars, covered hoppers, and flats for wheel transport. ============================================== 4. how late it was that revenue cars (e.g. H30 covered hoppers) went into company service (e.g. locomotive sand), but nobody bothered to renumber them out of their revenue numbers. We had an H30 with sand parked at the Fort Wayne roundhouse for the two years I was there (1981-1983), and it was still in its PRR revenue number. ---------------------------------------------- I think after the merger the PRR work equipment numbering scheme went by the boards. Cars were pressed into company service w/o number changes. Also, I believe the PC eventually adopted some other work equipment numbering scheme. There were also so unusual adaptations of the "S" symbol following the merger. ============================================== Fortunately, we modelers can always rely on the pictures for "correct" usage. ---------------------------------------------- Yes, but only if you know what the date of the picture is, especially around merger time. If there are more questions I'll try to answer them. Al "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:36:31 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] Al Buchan's work equipment guidelines This is in response to some of Rick's questions. I'm still not 100% sure of the "rules" for: 1. when a car appears in the gray or yellow dress of work-assigned equipment with the 490,000-series company service number ----------------------------------------------- If it's a class XL it's most likely in MW camp car or mechanical wreck train service. If it's a class X23 or X26 (usually with windows) it's more than likely in MW service as a tool, tool & supply, or tool & material car. If it's a class X25, X28 or X29 with windows it's more than likely in MW service. If it's a class X28 or X29 without windows it's probably either an MW tool & supply car or in stores department service. If it has steam and communicating lines it's in stores service. Note the "S" symbol really didn't start until later. For example the X28 on page 13 of the current HighLine, although, captioned as being a MW car, is in fact a stores and material car in dedicated service between Wilmington shops and Sunnyside yard hauling mechanical department parts. ============================================== 2. when Lines West company service numbers in the 990,000-series disappeared (notice that cabin numbers, e.g. N6b, lasted in the 980,000-series until the cars were scrapped in the 60's). ---------------------------------------------- Don't know the answer to this yet. ============================================== 3. when a car appears in FCC but with a 490,000-series number (e.g. 'S' cars in company material service). ---------------------------------------------- It's in material and stores department service, includes boxcars, all tank cars, covered hoppers, and flats for wheel transport. ============================================== 4. how late it was that revenue cars (e.g. H30 covered hoppers) went into company service (e.g. locomotive sand), but nobody bothered to renumber them out of their revenue numbers. We had an H30 with sand parked at the Fort Wayne roundhouse for the two years I was there (1981-1983), and it was still in its PRR revenue number. ---------------------------------------------- I think after the merger the PRR work equipment numbering scheme went by the boards. Cars were pressed into company service w/o number changes. Also, I believe the PC eventually adopted some other work equipment numbering scheme. There were also so unusual adaptations of the "S" symbol following the merger. ============================================== Fortunately, we modelers can always rely on the pictures for "correct" usage. ---------------------------------------------- Yes, but only if you know what the date of the picture is, especially around merger time. If there are more questions I'll try to answer them. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:27:44 -0600 From: Greg Johnson Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article This getting way off topic, but I did ask Jim Hediger about the MR review policy. Here is his reply: Greg: Regarding our product review samples: As the product review editor, I make the initial selection with input from our other staff members and approval from Terry Thompson our editor. In general, I try to assign reviews according to our staff members' interests to take advantage of their experience. The items reviewed come from a number of sources, generally depending upon value. The more expensive items are borrowed from the manufacturer and returned after the review is completed. Less expensive R-T-R items (usually $100 or less) may be provided by the manufacturers with the understanding that the item must be from the regular production run. If I think what we receive is hand-picked or tuned up, I check it against samples at our local hobby shops to make sure they're the same. We also have a budget to buy items from our dealers. We usually buy anything that requires major construction as these items cannot be returned. Following the review, we give the model to the builder/reviewer if they can use it, or put it in storage for future use in other MR projects, show displays, etc. In any case, the objective is to obtain and review the same product a reader would purchase. Regards, Jim Hediger, senior editor MODEL RAILROADER Magazine ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 20:58:53 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Framed Don Wood Hi All, I have finally framed the Don Wood photos that I got at the 2002 PRR convention. I won one of them at the banquet. (the color print "Portrait of a Lady.) However, my black and white "Woods Curve" print is much more special to me, as it is a REAL Don Wood photo. Don explained to me when I bought it that it is one of the last prints that HE printed on his enlarger from an original negative. As a photographer myself, I thought this to be very significant. I placed them over my S Scale model display track. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/Framed_Don_Wood.jpg Enjoy! Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 21:08:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Framed Don Wood From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" on 11/14/02 8:58 PM, Bill Lane at billlane@comcast.net wrote: > I have finally framed the Don Wood photos that I got at the 2002 PRR > convention. I won one of them at the banquet. (the color print "Portrait of > a Lady.) However, my black and white "Woods Curve" print is much more > special to me, as it is a REAL Don Wood photo. Don explained to me when I > bought it that it is one of the last prints that HE printed on his enlarger > from an original negative. As a photographer myself, I thought this to be > very significant. > > I placed them over my S Scale model display track. > http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/Framed_Don_Wood.jpg > An excellent choice..."Woods Curve" is one of my favorites as well. On my N scale layout, the actual "Woods Curve" location will be modeled, between VIEW/Duncannon and Cove. The year is 1954 and you'll see a young Don Wood taking photos trackside! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:16:25 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] A paper on tank cars I stumbled onto a lengthy article on tank cars, starting with early experiments in the Pennsylvania oil fields. It can be found at: http://www.oilhistory.com/pages/TankCars.html The PRR connection is, of course, that much of the oil produced in the northwestern PA oil fields was shipped via PRR and subsidiaries. Also, Thomas A. Scott is mentioned once, in a not entirely flattering anecdote. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 08:05:24 -0500 Subject: [PRR] For Sale: "The PRR in 1954" CD-ROM From: Jerry Britton (Pursuant to "For Sale" listings on the 1st and 15th days of the month...) I have a three-year long project that is finally coming to completion...a CD-ROM titled "The Pennsylvania Railroad in 1954". This CD contains dozens of original PRR documents from 1954 that have been meticulously scanned and converted into Acrobat PDF files. There are several thousand pages of documentation in all. The CD will be of ISO-9660 format, which is compatible with Windows, Macintosh, UNIX, and other operating systems. Adobe Acrobat Reader is required to read the files and is a free download. With only a few documents remaining to finish off, I expect to ship this product around December 1. It will DEFINITELY go out in December...finally! Among other documents, the CD includes: * Employee Timetables for ALL 19 division as of 9/26/54 * Numerous Public Timetables * All 11 issues of "The Pennsy", with extensive TrucTrain coverage * Substantial passenger roster coverage, including the Passenger Equipment Roster, the Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment (all roads), etc. * Additional freight service coverage, including excerpts from the Official Railway Equipment Register, the Schedule of Arranged Freight Service, etc. * Other supporting documents, including the Annual Report, etc. The price of this CD is $100. When you consider that a single employee timetable alone typically runs $20-30 at a show, you quickly realize what a value this product can be. You can review the details at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/*ws4d-db-query-QuickShow?DSOP-KCX4 I have invested a lot of funds in securing these documents. I had originally planned to create CD's for other years, but I have found it too cumbersome to manage. I plan to reinvest the proceeds in documents for posting (for free access) to the Keystone Crossings web site. Thank you for your support! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:19:15 -0500 Subject: [PRR] 6th Annual Modeling Needs Survey! -- From: Jerry Britton Time for the 6th Annual "Keystone Crossings/PRR-Talk" Modeling Needs Survey! I will summarize the results to the list as well as to several dozen model manufacturers. Every year some of our highest requests show up within the next 24 months. Please participate by listing up to three PRR products that you would like to see produced in each of the categories listed. Only the first three in each category will be considered; others will be discarded. Please try to be specific with the PRR class. If you are looking for mass quantities, indicate that as well. Please DO NOT include models of classes that have already been announced for production. Respond by replying to this message, but send it to me only (not to the list) at "jerry@pennsyrr.com" and send by Friday, November 22, 4:30 p.m. When submitting, please APPEND the subject line with your scale. Thank you! (You can view last year's results at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/Forms/email/*ws4d-db-query-Show.ws4d?*ws4d-db-query-S how***MJL-BAJ-157160159158163159-1460***-Email_Archive***-***email(directory )***.ws4d?email/results(R).html , just make sure you remove any line breaks if you copy/paste it into your browser.) Thank you! YOUR SCALE: STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: STRUCTURES DESIRED: OTHER DESIRED: ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 13:42:28 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article > Hey fellows this is supposed to be fun! Fun has multiple definitions.... > If TRAINS and any of the trade publications really were > doing their job ...as does 'their job'. Whether TRAINS regards investigative journalism as 'their job' THEY get to decide. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 15:26:33 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] PRR Employees While I don't know the number of employees for the PRR, I did find a "FORTUNE 500" equivalent while doing a grad school paper a few years back. This is 1907 data for gross sales/receipts or some equivalent in thousands of 1907 dollars. Table 1 is industrial companies: 1 U.S. Steel 2,450 2 Standard Oil of NJ 574 3 Bethlehem Steel 382 4 Armour 314 5 Swift 306 6 Midvale Steel & Ordinance 270 (later part of Beth Steel) 7 International Harvester 265 8 E.I.DuPont 263 9 U.S. Rubber 258 10 Phelps Dodge 232 11 General Electric 232 12 Anaconda Copper 226 13 American Smelting 222 14 Standard Oil of NY 204 15 Singer 193 16 Ford Motor Co 166 17 Westinghouse Electric 166 18 American Tobacco 164 19 Jones & Laughlin Steel 160 20 Union Carbide & Carbon 156 Now, if you include the railroads in the listings (note #1!): 1 PRR !!! 2,663 2 U.S. Steel 2,450 3 SP 1,788 4 NYC 1,786 5 UP 1,034 6 ATSF 847 7 B&O 841 8 GN 761 9 ACL 756 10 NP 736 11 CB&Q/CS 729 12 SRR 716 13 NYNH&H 694 14 CM&StP 691 15 Erie 600 16 C&NW 593 17 Standard Oil of NJ 574 18 IC 566 19 Reading 500 20 MP 405 For what its worth WALMART is number 1 now with $25 Billion revenues 168 UP $11.9B 60000 employees 211 BNSF 9.2B 39000 238 CSX 8.1 42000 283 NS 6.2 31000 Jim McDaniel, here in Delmarva where the ESHR isn't even in the Fortune 5000... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Work Equipment Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 12:12:34 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C28CE3.560777B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Bill, Al and all; Thanks for all this fascinating info! I remember switchers parked (when not out and about being used) at local yards that had no engine facilities, usually close to the little "yard office" the PRR maintained. It seems that these engines usually had their engine running most of the time. Did they not shut it down because it was hard to re-start? Did they have to shut it down during refueling by those little local fuel dealer trucks? What determined where they kept these little local switchers? And how did PRR ensure that someone didn't climb up on it and "take it for a spin"? Also, I seem to remember (at Pitcairn and Conemaugh, at least) strings of UTLX tank cars (usually eight or so at a time) spotted near the fuel rack at these big terminals. What determined the use of PRR diesel fuel tanks cars (TM-8's?) versus use of leased cars? Or were these UTLX tanks just there for some other purpose? Thanks for any insight you can provide! And have a great weekend, too! Elden ------_=_NextPart_001_01C28CE3.560777B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Work Equipment

Bill, Al and all;
Thanks for all this fascinating info!
I remember switchers parked (when not out and about = being used) at local yards that had no engine facilities, usually close = to the little "yard office" the PRR maintained.  It = seems that these engines usually had their engine running most of the = time.  Did they not shut it down because it was hard to = re-start?  Did they have to shut it down during refueling by those = little local fuel dealer trucks?  What determined where they kept = these little local switchers?  And how did PRR ensure that someone = didn't climb up on it and "take it for a spin"?

Also, I seem to remember (at Pitcairn and Conemaugh, = at least) strings of UTLX tank cars (usually eight or so at a time) = spotted near the fuel rack at these big terminals.  What = determined the use of PRR diesel fuel tanks cars (TM-8's?) versus use = of leased cars?  Or were these UTLX tanks just there for some = other purpose?

Thanks for any insight you can provide!
And have a great weekend, too!
Elden


------_=_NextPart_001_01C28CE3.560777B0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Work Equipment Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 15:56:28 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C28CBF.8FD701F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The engines were kept running mainly to prevent freezing up in the winter. If they shut them down in the summer or winter, because there was no other locomotive in the area, and the batteries were low or dead, then there was nothing to jump start the dead unit. The fuel truck fueled the unit while it was running (as they still do today). I have no idea what their choice of tank car entailed. I would assume that if they ran out of company tank cars they used leased cars. It wasn't until 1958 or so that they put in the big fueling farm at S. Philadelphia for systemwide distribution as I remember it. The reverser handle and brake handle(s) were kept locked up in the yard office which thwarted intruders from taking the idling units. I do remember at Canton, the B&O kept an Alco S-2 and shut it down even during the winter but they had some sort of a screwy water heater hooked up that circulated warm water throughout the unit while down. Where did they leave the yard switchers at outlying points? Wherever there was a yard office and switching activity. For example based in Canton, we had units at Salem, Alliance, New Philadelphia, Orrville, and Massilon in addition to the ones stationed in Canton. For the Alco Switchers, we burned Ashland Oil #1 Diesel because it burned cleaner and the valves didn't carbon up as bad when they idled in cold weather. Saved on head changeouts. At Northumberland, all units made it home every night except the RS-11 stationed at Weigh Scales. In Chicago, we had units overnighting at Proctor and Gamble, Campbells Soup, Damen Ave (CNW Interchange) 55th St. Yard, and Valparaiso (the dummies). We had an itinerant fuel truck that trotted around town refueling. At Renovo we had units stationed at Emporium (helpers) and Lock Haven. Elmira had units at Sodus Point (Coal Dock) and Pen Yan (A&P Catchup Factory). Hope this helps. Bill Volkmer -----Original Message----- From: ELDEN GATWOOD [mailto:ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com] Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 3:13 PM To: 'Bill Volkmer'; 'Al Buchan'; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: RE: [PRR] Work Equipment Bill, Al and all; Thanks for all this fascinating info! I remember switchers parked (when not out and about being used) at local yards that had no engine facilities, usually close to the little "yard office" the PRR maintained. It seems that these engines usually had their engine running most of the time. Did they not shut it down because it was hard to re-start? Did they have to shut it down during refueling by those little local fuel dealer trucks? What determined where they kept these little local switchers? And how did PRR ensure that someone didn't climb up on it and "take it for a spin"? Also, I seem to remember (at Pitcairn and Conemaugh, at least) strings of UTLX tank cars (usually eight or so at a time) spotted near the fuel rack at these big terminals. What determined the use of PRR diesel fuel tanks cars (TM-8's?) versus use of leased cars? Or were these UTLX tanks just there for some other purpose? Thanks for any insight you can provide! And have a great weekend, too! Elden ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C28CBF.8FD701F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Work Equipment

The engines were kept running = mainly to prevent freezing up in the winter.  If they shut them down in the summer or winter, because there was = no other locomotive in the area, and the batteries were low or dead, then = there was nothing to jump start the dead unit.

 

The fuel truck fueled the unit = while it was running (as they still do today).

 

I have no idea what their choice of = tank car entailed.  I would = assume that if they ran out of company tank cars they used leased cars.  It wasn’t until 1958 or = so that they put in the big fueling farm at S. Philadelphia for systemwide distribution as I remember = it.

 

The reverser handle and brake handle(s) were kept locked up in the yard office which thwarted intruders from taking the idling = units.

 

I do remember at Canton, the = B&O kept an Alco S-2 and shut it down even during the winter but they had some = sort of a screwy water heater hooked up that circulated warm water  throughout the unit while = down.

 

Where did they leave the yard = switchers at outlying points?  Wherever = there was a yard office and switching activity.  For example based in Canton, we had units at Salem, Alliance, New Philadelphia, Orrville, and Massilon in addition to the = ones stationed in Canton.  For the Alco Switchers, we burned Ashland Oil #1 Diesel because it burned cleaner and = the valves didn’t carbon up as bad when they idled in cold = weather.   Saved = on head changeouts.

 

At Northumberland, all units made = it home every night except the RS-11 stationed at Weigh = Scales.

 

In = Chicago, we had units overnighting at = Proctor and Gamble, Campbells Soup, = Damen Ave (CNW Interchange)  = 55th St. Yard, and Valparaiso (the dummies).  We had an itinerant fuel truck that trotted around town = refueling.

 

At Renovo we had units stationed at Emporium (helpers) and Lock Haven.

 

Elmira had units at Sodus Point (Coal Dock) and Pen Yan  (A&P Catchup Factory).

 

 

 

Hope this helps. =

 

Bill = Volkmer

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: ELDEN GATWOOD [mailto:ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com]
Sent: Friday, November = 15, 2002 3:13 PM
To: 'Bill Volkmer'; 'Al = Buchan'; 'PRR-Talk'
Subject: RE: [PRR] Work = Equipment

 

Bill, Al and all;
Thanks for all this = fascinating info!
I remember switchers = parked (when not out and about being used) at local yards that had no engine = facilities, usually close to the little "yard office" the PRR = maintained.  It seems that these engines usually had their engine running most of the time.  Did they not shut it down because it was hard to = re-start?  Did they have to shut it down during refueling by those little local = fuel dealer trucks?  What determined where they kept these little local switchers?  And how did PRR ensure that someone didn't climb up on = it and "take it for a spin"?

Also, I seem to remember (at Pitcairn and = Conemaugh, at least) strings of UTLX tank cars (usually eight or so at a time) = spotted near the fuel rack at these big terminals.  What determined the use = of PRR diesel fuel tanks cars (TM-8's?) versus use of leased cars?  Or = were these UTLX tanks just there for some other = purpose?

Thanks for any insight you can = provide!
And have a great = weekend, too!
Elden =

 

------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C28CBF.8FD701F0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 15:45:26 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Work Equipment From: Jerry Britton On 11/15/02 3:12 PM, ELDEN GATWOOD (ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com) wrote: > I remember switchers parked (when not out and about being used) at local yards > that had no engine facilities, usually close to the little "yard office" the > PRR maintained. It seems that these engines usually had their engine running > most of the time. Did they not shut it down because it was hard to re-start? > Did they have to shut it down during refueling by those little local fuel > dealer trucks? What determined where they kept these little local switchers? > And how did PRR ensure that someone didn't climb up on it and "take it for a > spin"? > Even today the railroads leave locomotives running. I think it is typical of the diesel technology being more efficient when it is warm. As for security, there is something the engineers take when they leave the cab, akin to a key, but they can take it without shutting down. I recall that right after NS took over Conrail that the entire system became a "parking lot". There were complaints locally (New Cumberland, Pa.) that a crew left a set of units (no train) running...for three weeks!!! It was covered extensively in the local media. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:02:19 EST Subject: [PRR] Conversion table, Pullman names to work equipment numbers --part1_ff.20e7ed9c.2b06badb_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/14/02 6:35:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > PS. Somewhere I have a semi-complete list of all the Pullman cars we > converted to MW service, names versus MW numbers. Will publish it when > I get around to it, if it hasn't been done before. I understand the Bob Reid list of Pullman conversions, published many moons ago, is incomplete and may contain errors. It would be a public service for you to pub your list and get it vetted against any other sources, preferably before Al Buchan and associates go to print with their epic on PRR work equipment. In any case, will be eager to see such a list from an authoritative source. Thanks in advance... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_ff.20e7ed9c.2b06badb_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/14/02 6:35:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


PS.  Somewhere I have a semi-complete list of all the Pullman cars we
converted to MW service, names versus MW numbers.  Will publish it when
I get around to it, if it hasn't been done before.


I understand the Bob Reid list of Pullman conversions, published many moons ago, is incomplete and may contain errors.  It would be a public service for you to pub your list and get it vetted against any other sources, preferably before Al Buchan and associates go to print with their epic on PRR work equipment.

In any case, will be eager to see such a list from an authoritative source.  Thanks in advance...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_ff.20e7ed9c.2b06badb_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 16:24:35 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Work Equipment This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_RFpDiIImenDr6Pqvv9Ypxg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Re outlying shifters. On the E&P we had one at Westinghouse (heavy transformer division) in Sharon and one at Sharpsville for Shenango Furnace and Mercer Tube. All the rest were at Wheatland yard. Al --Boundary_(ID_RFpDiIImenDr6Pqvv9Ypxg) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Re outlying shifters.
 
On the E&P we had one at Westinghouse (heavy transformer division) in Sharon and one at Sharpsville for Shenango Furnace and Mercer Tube. All the rest were at Wheatland yard.
 
Al
--Boundary_(ID_RFpDiIImenDr6Pqvv9Ypxg)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Work Equipment Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 13:29:27 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C28CEE.1360A0C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Al, Bill, Jerry; Thanks for the great feedback once again! And have a great weekend, Elden ------_=_NextPart_001_01C28CEE.1360A0C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] Work Equipment
Al,=20 Bill, Jerry;
Thanks=20 for the great feedback once again!
And=20 have a great weekend,
Elden
 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C28CEE.1360A0C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Work Equipment Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 13:48:39 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C28CF0.C1EDEBF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Al, Bill, Jerry and all; I remember watching two units at 30th St. yard (South Side Pittsburgh). I seem to recall (could be wrong) an SW-9 or 1200 and a GP-7 that they used there, plus at least one SW-1 that they used on the Whitehall branch. Because they had gotten rid of the big engine facility there some time earlier, there was only a small yard office. They did not have a fueling facility, so I could never figure out how that managed to keep those engines going 24 hours a day without seemingly local source of fuel. I guess I never saw the fuel trucks! They also had a bunch of Baldwin switchers further up river on the Mon Branch (former Division; big branch!), apparently at least one of which (I think) they had at Kenny/Thomson yard, one at Wilson yard, and one at Duquesne, and perhaps even more at Brownsville and other smaller (I mean relative to someplace like Conway!) yards. I don't think they drove these engines all the way back to Shire Oaks each day (or night). Interestingly, I never saw any of the Alco switchers they had assigned to this part of the railroad; only parked continuously at Conway in a long line shut down. Despite the fact that they had LOTS of RS-3's, both in passenger and freight service, plus the biggest blocks of FA/FB's and many of the PA's, too, toward their last years. I've always wondered why they had all these active Alco road units, but chose to park their Alco switchers in favor of EMD and Baldwins! Any ideas? I thought they had the same engines in them (244's?). Also, Bill, I talked to a gent some time ago that ran diesels on the Mon, who said that aside from the service guys hating to change out FM's bottom bearings, the engine men liked them (and the Baldwins) because they had more pulling power than the EMD's. I guess the H-20-44's (FS20) one fault with them was the lack of a toilet, which kept them rather local. Any thoughts on this? Have a great one, guys! I am really loving all this discussion. Elden ------_=_NextPart_001_01C28CF0.C1EDEBF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Al,=20 Bill, Jerry and all;
I=20 remember watching two units at 30th St. yard (South Side = Pittsburgh).  I=20 seem to recall (could be wrong) an SW-9 or 1200 and a GP-7 that they = used there,=20 plus at least one SW-1 that they used on the Whitehall branch.  = Because=20 they had gotten rid of the big engine facility there some time earlier, = there=20 was only a small yard office.  They did not have a fueling = facility, so I=20 could never figure out how that managed to keep those engines going 24 = hours a=20 day without seemingly local source of fuel.  I guess I never saw = the fuel=20 trucks!  They also had a bunch of Baldwin switchers further up = river on the=20 Mon Branch (former Division; big branch!), apparently at least one of = which (I=20 think) they had at Kenny/Thomson yard, one at Wilson yard, and one at = Duquesne,=20 and perhaps even more at Brownsville and other smaller (I mean relative = to=20 someplace like Conway!) yards.  I don't think they drove these = engines all=20 the way back to Shire Oaks each day (or night).  Interestingly, I = never saw=20 any of the Alco switchers they had assigned to this part of the = railroad; only=20 parked continuously at Conway in a long line shut down.  Despite = the fact=20 that they had LOTS of RS-3's, both in passenger and freight service, = plus the=20 biggest blocks of FA/FB's and many of the PA's, too, toward their last=20 years.  I've always wondered why they had all these active Alco = road units,=20 but chose to park their Alco switchers in favor of EMD and = Baldwins! =20 Any ideas?  I thought they had the same engines in them=20 (244's?).
  Also, Bill, I talked to a gent some time ago that ran = diesels on=20 the Mon, who said that aside from the service guys hating to change out = FM's=20 bottom bearings, the engine men liked them (and the Baldwins) because = they had=20 more pulling power than the EMD's.  I guess the H-20-44's = (FS20) one=20 fault with them was the lack of a toilet, which kept them rather = local. =20 Any thoughts on this?
Have a great one, guys!  I am really loving all this=20 discussion.
Elden
 
------_=_NextPart_001_01C28CF0.C1EDEBF0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gary Farmer" Subject: [PRR] Penn Central wanted to trade for PRR Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:02:43 -0500 Hi gang, I realize that I'm a cat in a pack of dogs (meaning dogs in the most endearing sense), but I am a (BIG) Penn Central fan. Why am I sending this email to a PRR list? Because over the past 5 years, I have made many good trades with PRR fans. It's simple- your PC railroadiana in trade for my PRR railroadiana. I have traded bells, tower signs, switch keys, police badges, etc. for Penn Central items. If you hate the PC, but have Penn Central items lying around, we need to talk! I also have several other good traders right now, including Western Md. RY, Northern Central & Newport & Sherman's Valley (narrow guage). What PC do you have for me?? Gary Farmer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:33:17 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Doug Nelson & Philip Hastings From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" My congratulations go out to PRRT&HS member and fellow N scale modeler Doug Nelson on the release of his new book "Philip R. Hastings: Portrait of the Pennsylvania Railroad". Doug, living on the left coast, made a wonderful discovery, that a local organization had the Philip Hasting collection of railroad photographs, which included a trove of PRR photos. What Rau did for the PRR in the 1890's, Hastings did for the PRR in the 1950's. His work frequented Trains magazine, including the April 1957 issue which had the article "World's Busiest Mountain Railroad". >From a production standpoint, this book is first rate. I have a background in publishing and Doug and his publisher made excellent choices of paper and in reproducing the photos. I haven't had time yet to read the text and take a critical look at each photo, but a quick look provided some immediate appreciation: * a shot of an I1 going through a truss bridge on the Elmira Branch * a great shot inside the Enola roundhouse * an I1 creekside on the H&P branch * shots inside the Renovo roundhouse * an absolutely spectacular shot of an I1 on a high bridge over the Rock Stream Gorge on the Elmira Branch near Seneca Lake (where can I order a reprint of this shot?) * a great shot of an F30 modified for early TrucTrain service and carrying one of the 26-28' curbside door trailers that we need so bad in HO and N scales! To tell you the truth, I am enjoying this a lot more than the Rau book! More later... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: [PRR] Shifters, Switchers and such Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 17:45:12 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C28CCE.BF7A2540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All! Here I am again, this subject comes up again and again. How do you = define "Shifter" and "Switcher"? Or "Shunter" or some other? Several years ago, on one of these PRR lists, I was reprimanded for = calling them "Switchers". I tried to explain myself by saying that = IMHO, I believe that steam engines used in switching service were called = Shifters; and that when diesels came in, they were called Switchers. I = was told that was wrong. That there were all sorts of exceptions. But I still see both words interchanged on these lists. All you "real" = PRR men - is there a definitive answer? Or does it really not matter? = And I really don't give a hoot what other railroads called (past tense) = or even call (present tense) them. My only interest is PRR. Therefore, = there are no cabooses, no way cars, only cabins. And there are no black = engines, only DGLE. And all good railroads ended in 1968. Sorry about bringing this up again! Grin! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C28CCE.BF7A2540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All!
 
Here I am again, this subject = comes up again=20 and again.  How do you define "Shifter" and "Switcher"?  Or = "Shunter"=20 or some other?
 
Several years ago, on one of = these PRR=20 lists, I was reprimanded for calling them "Switchers".  I tried to = explain=20 myself by saying that IMHO, I believe that steam engines used in = switching=20 service were called Shifters; and that when diesels came in, they were = called=20 Switchers.  I was told that was wrong.  That there were all = sorts of=20 exceptions.
 
But I still see both words = interchanged on=20 these lists.  All you "real" PRR men - is there a definitive = answer? =20 Or does it really not matter?  And I really don't give a hoot what = other=20 railroads called (past tense) or even call (present = tense) them. =20 My only interest is PRR.  Therefore, there are no cabooses, no way = cars,=20 only cabins.  And there are no black engines, only=20 DGLE.  And all good railroads ended in 1968.
 
Sorry about bringing this up = again! =20 Grin!
 
Morgan = Bilbo
Ferroequinologist
PRRTHS=20 #1204 and SPF
------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C28CCE.BF7A2540-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 19:48:56 -0800 Subject: [PRR] X-29 and others Hi, I recommend list members interested in PRR class X29 boxcars peruse the URL below, looking at the articles under the heading "X28/29, M-26/-27 Proposed 1923 ARA Design and Related Box and Auto Cars by Ted Culotta" It is excellent reading. http://www.steamfreightcars.com/calendar/2002/nap02/sunnap02main.html - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 19:48:56 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Clearance cars and sand Al wrote: > Well I have finally gotten around to expressing some thoughts on the >subject. Many people loosely applied the term "maintenance-of-way" to all >equipment used in company service. Although the MW department did have a >lot of work equipment it was not the only department that did. The PRR >"work equipment" used in company service was in fact assigned to other >departments that shared equal stature with the MW department, to wit the >Material and Stores Department and the Mechanical Department. Thanks you Al for the excellent mini-treatise on the topic. I have a couple of question, for Al or anyone else who cares to chime in... (1) Q: To what department were the clearance cars assigned? (2) Q: In the 1920's, how was sand transported to engine terminals? Remember, this was before the era of the covered hopper! - In open cars such as gons/hoppers? - In boxcars, possibly bagged (much like cement shipments of that era)? - Some other way? Thanks for any thoughts on these topics! - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 23:06:00 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] RE: Clearance cars and sand Claus, et al., Both excellent questions. I believe the clearance car was in the MW department, but I will check with an old friend of mine who rode the car and give you all a definite answer. I'll check with some of mechanical friends on the pre-LO delivery of sand. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 23:15:05 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Shifters, Switchers and such This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_0XgZqd3jAlHukLsgCEE6JQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Morgan, This is a question that I had also. In doing research for the E&P book I came across the use of shifter for both steam and diesel engines assigned to that service. This was in official correspondence. Switcher was also used later on. I don't ever recall the use of the term "shunter" on the PRR but that doesn't mean it wasn't used somewhere. There was a great deal of local language that was used in some places but not others. For example when we would take a track out of service for maintenance, and traffic in one direction was required to run against the current of traffic (which was the official correct term) in some places it was called "single lining," in others it was called "running upside down." Al --Boundary_(ID_0XgZqd3jAlHukLsgCEE6JQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Morgan,
 
This is a question that I had also. In doing research for the E&P book I came across the use of shifter for both steam and diesel engines assigned to that service. This was in official correspondence. Switcher was also used later on. I don't ever recall the use of the term "shunter" on the PRR but that doesn't mean it wasn't used somewhere. There was a great deal of local language that was used in some places but not others.
 
For example when we would take a track out of service for maintenance, and traffic in one direction was required to run against the current of traffic (which was the official correct term) in some places it was called "single lining," in others it was called "running upside down."
 
Al
 
--Boundary_(ID_0XgZqd3jAlHukLsgCEE6JQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 21:51:10 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Philip Hastings PRR Book From: "Douglas Nelson" Jerry and List: Jerry asked if it is possible to order prints of Philip Hastings photos from the book. Prints for personal use can be ordered from the library for about $17 for an 8x10 print, plus shipping. You can order by faxing a copy of the photo, or contact me an I can give you the negative number. Below is the contact info for the library: California State Railroad Museum Library tel: 916-323-8073 fax: 916-327-5655 email: library@californiastaterailroadmuseum.org Doug Nelson ---------- >From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" >To: PRR-talk >Subject: [PRR] Doug Nelson & Philip Hastings >Date: Fri, Nov 15, 2002, 2:33 PM > > My congratulations go out to PRRT&HS member and fellow N scale modeler Doug > Nelson on the release of his new book "Philip R. Hastings: Portrait of the > Pennsylvania Railroad". > > Doug, living on the left coast, made a wonderful discovery, that a local > organization had the Philip Hasting collection of railroad photographs, > which included a trove of PRR photos. > > What Rau did for the PRR in the 1890's, Hastings did for the PRR in the > 1950's. His work frequented Trains magazine, including the April 1957 issue > which had the article "World's Busiest Mountain Railroad". > > From a production standpoint, this book is first rate. I have a background > in publishing and Doug and his publisher made excellent choices of paper and > in reproducing the photos. > > I haven't had time yet to read the text and take a critical look at each > photo, but a quick look provided some immediate appreciation: > > * a shot of an I1 going through a truss bridge on the Elmira Branch > > * a great shot inside the Enola roundhouse > > * an I1 creekside on the H&P branch > > * shots inside the Renovo roundhouse > > * an absolutely spectacular shot of an I1 on a high bridge over the Rock > Stream Gorge on the Elmira Branch near Seneca Lake (where can I order a > reprint of this shot?) > > * a great shot of an F30 modified for early TrucTrain service and carrying > one of the 26-28' curbside door trailers that we need so bad in HO and N > scales! > > To tell you the truth, I am enjoying this a lot more than the Rau book! > > More later... > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region > Modeling the PRR in September 1954 > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 02:27:47 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Shifters, Switchers and such This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_ruUJFV+33FgSj6a6UG+0hQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT MessageI believe on the island of Sodor, under the direction of Sir Topemhat, the action of switching is refered to as shunting. As you may not know, the show originated in England. Shunt engines in the UK are switch engines in the US. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Al Buchan Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 11:15 PM To: 'PennsyNut'; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: RE: [PRR] Shifters, Switchers and such Morgan, This is a question that I had also. In doing research for the E&P book I came across the use of shifter for both steam and diesel engines assigned to that service. This was in official correspondence. Switcher was also used later on. I don't ever recall the use of the term "shunter" on the PRR but that doesn't mean it wasn't used somewhere. There was a great deal of local language that was used in some places but not others. For example when we would take a track out of service for maintenance, and traffic in one direction was required to run against the current of traffic (which was the official correct term) in some places it was called "single lining," in others it was called "running upside down." Al --Boundary_(ID_ruUJFV+33FgSj6a6UG+0hQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
I believe on the island of Sodor, under the direction of Sir Topemhat, the action of switching is refered to as shunting.  As you may not know, the show originated in England.  Shunt engines in the UK are switch engines in the US.
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Al Buchan
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 11:15 PM
To: 'PennsyNut'; 'PRR-Talk'
Subject: RE: [PRR] Shifters, Switchers and such

Morgan,
 
This is a question that I had also. In doing research for the E&P book I came across the use of shifter for both steam and diesel engines assigned to that service. This was in official correspondence. Switcher was also used later on. I don't ever recall the use of the term "shunter" on the PRR but that doesn't mean it wasn't used somewhere. There was a great deal of local language that was used in some places but not others.
 
For example when we would take a track out of service for maintenance, and traffic in one direction was required to run against the current of traffic (which was the official correct term) in some places it was called "single lining," in others it was called "running upside down."
 
Al
 
--Boundary_(ID_ruUJFV+33FgSj6a6UG+0hQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 09:04:44 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] PRR Layout tours Hi All, I went to tour Charlie Carangie and Charlie Grant's layouts last night in Delaware. I have been to Charlie Carangie's many times before. It was my first visit to Charlie Grant's. They are both a must see for fans of Pennsy Catenary! Here are a few photos from last night. I have a Fuji S602 digital camera. Some photos were taken without a tripod and with the available light at about a 3 second exposure. I think it still gets the point across. I shot them at the lowest resolution because I knew I was going to post them here. I have some that are really chunky if you want to zoom around them. I will email them to you if you don't have HOTMAIL. I also included a shot of my oh so bored wife in the mix. Just don't tell her...... Some of the links are pretty big, so give them time to load! Enjoy! http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/Charlie_Carangie.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/Charlie_Grant1.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/Charlie_Grant2.jpg Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 09:04:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Clearance cars and sand From: Jerry Britton On 11/15/02 11:06 PM, "Al Buchan" wrote: > I believe the clearance car was in the MW department, but I will check > with an old friend of mine who rode the car and give you all a definite > answer. > May have been in MW dept., but numerous sources say it ran as a "passenger extra". --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mdimaio@ids.net Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 12:13:19 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Greiff Teller Calendar Pictures Who holds the copyright for the various Greiff Teller PRR Calendar pictures? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] Lines West talk list Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 14:20:28 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C28D7B.503464E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gents; Anyone out there know if there is a Lines West talk list or such?? Earl Myers ------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C28D7B.503464E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gents;
 Anyone out there know if there is = a Lines=20 West talk list or such??
Earl Myers
------=_NextPart_000_0067_01C28D7B.503464E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 16:17:16 -0500 From: Dale Dembinski Subject: [PRR] Weekend Chief 2003 PRR Calendar? Does anyone know if Weekend Chief will be publishing a 2003 PRR calendar? For those who are unaware, their 2002 PRR calendar consisted of reprints of PRR ads from the 40-60s. It is very nice. Nice enough that I am looking for the 2003 edition. Expanding this thought a bit, how about a 2003 PRR calendar roundup? I know CEDCO does one, as does Audio-Visual Designs and their B&W large format. I personally don't care for the CEDCO calendars, except the Ted Rose version. Are their other publishers of PRR calendars? Thanks, Dale ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] USRA 0-6-0 steamers in the PRR system, class B28s Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 16:42:43 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C28D8F.2F26B1E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gents; I understand maybe 30 of them were in service till 1948 or so, numbered = sporadically between 7007-9495. Can anybody tell me where they were say = 1944 and what they were used for (I assume switching/shunting or...?). Were these used as yard goats or at the roundhouses, maybe as tank = engines?? Earl Myers ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C28D8F.2F26B1E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gents;
 I understand maybe 30 of them = were in service=20 till 1948 or so, numbered sporadically between 7007-9495. Can anybody = tell me=20 where they were say 1944 and what they were used for (I assume=20 switching/shunting or...?).
 Were these used as yard goats or = at the=20 roundhouses, maybe as tank engines??
Earl Myers
------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C28D8F.2F26B1E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 17:49:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] BLI Hudson, Jerry, List, There have been many reviews of the new NYC Hudson prior to and after its release. Here is my 2 cents worth. I received my Hudson several days ago. Having seen the first sample and later preproduction dealer samples and now having seen the production run, I like what I see! Much improved appearances over the early samples. No plastic looking add on pipes etc. All is blended together nicely. Although I havn't took the scale rule out yet it does compare well to one of the best HO Scale Hudsons ever made, the Westside/Mizuno NYC J1e. I set them side by side and compared the 2. Not perfect mirror images but damn close. In some cases I like certain details on the BLI J1e than that found on the Brass model. Operation: I have no DCC so my little tests was done on a short be of track. Sound volume is excellent! The number of features that I could get using a regular transformer work quite well. I did notice the 4 exhaust rate per revolution varied/advanced a bit, but you really have to look to see this. With a little more practice I am sure I can get a good routine down using all the available features. The one con (if you really want to call it that) I can see is the blurr of the chuffs when the J1e is at speed. It almost blends into one steady shh-hh-hh-hh. No real breaks between chuffs. But this is only at speed. What I would really like to see now from BLI is either an I1sa or a B6sb. This is why. The sounds this J1e makes while moving around in a yard at a slow speed would be perfect for a PRR "Shifter" such as the B6sb or a slow moving drag freight such as the I1sa. Slow speeds like that with each chuff being noticable could send shivers up your spine. The only thing missing would be the smells and sights of steam, the sound would be there. Do I recommend this J1e or possibly any future releases. Uhhhhhhh, YES! Thats my 2 cents. Add that with the many other reviews and you can decide if you need one......Gary PS: Why I bought a NYC J1e you ask? Someday I would like to model the "Great Race" with the K4s of course ahead by a nose....... Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:13:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA 0-6-0 steamers in the PRR system, class B28s B28S were mosty a "lines west" creature - If they were delivered with auotomotive style headlight - used with other line and wooden "coalboards" they didn't last long, they quickly got PRR style electric headlights (some mounted on oil type mounting brackets) and PRR style smoke box fronts. If you are modeling this - an A-5 (0-4-0) front end is about right for the B-28 (0-6-0) - sorta light by PRR standards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 23:28:22 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR E7's from BLI --part1_38.315745f9.2b0874e6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know that Broadway Limited has announced E7's but they don't show PRR as one of the roadnames. My first though when I heard that BLI was going to do them was why?, Life Like had done them already although I know there are some issues with the contours on the nose. I was looking over the new Withers book and I had a few ideas. If Broadway Limited were to offer the E7's as modified by the PRR I think they could have a winner on their hands. They need to do them with the antenna, nose lift rings, modified number boards, and the 3 cab vents the railroad added by removing one of the side windows. I know there are a few more but these are the major differences. Todd Horton --part1_38.315745f9.2b0874e6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know that Broadway Limited has announced E7's but they don't show PRR as one of the roadnames. My first though when I heard that BLI was going to do them was why?, Life Like had done them already although I know there are some issues with the contours on the nose. I was looking over the new Withers book and I had a few ideas. If Broadway Limited were to offer the E7's as modified by the PRR I think they could have a winner on their hands. They need to do them with the antenna, nose lift rings, modified number boards, and the 3 cab vents the railroad added by removing one of the side windows. I know there are a few more but these are the major differences. Todd Horton --part1_38.315745f9.2b0874e6_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR E7's from BLI Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 01:43:22 -0600 At Trainfest in Milwaukee, I asked Anton of BLI if the reason that PRR was not on the first release was that they had the Phase II carbodies (Filter & window modification you mentioned, and others) planned. He said they wouldn't do the Phase II, since not many roads had them. I know that PRR & NYC had Phase II, but I'm not sure what other roads had them. His excuse for not including PRR in the release was in order to do the PRR properly, they would require antennas, and BLI didn't want to do the antennas. I'm hoping his answer was a smokescreen, and they really have the Phase II body planned. I wholeheartedly agree, a Phase II would be a real winner. For those that don't know, what is called the Phase II car body is a modification made in the early 50's to increase cooling. I'm aware of 4 changes. First, as Todd mentioned, the 3 filters added to the side, where 1 window was replaced. 2nd, an opening was added on the upper rear panel. Next, the filter behind the cab door was changed (P2K has this part, check their DGLE EP20's vs their Tuscan EP20's). Finally, the roof openings were changed. I initially thought the changes occured when the units were repainted Tuscan. However, I have found photos of DGLE units with original numberboards that have the Phase II changes. For those that want a Phase II car body, RMC had an article that described the kitbash. I also heard on another list that Delta Models plans to release resin parts 1st Quarter 2003 that will make this kitbash easier. Andy Cich -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of CENTGA@aol.com Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 10:28 PM To: PRR-TALK@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR E7's from BLI I know that Broadway Limited has announced E7's but they don't show PRR as one of the roadnames. My first though when I heard that BLI was going to do them was why?, Life Like had done them already although I know there are some issues with the contours on the nose. I was looking over the new Withers book and I had a few ideas. If Broadway Limited were to offer the E7's as modified by the PRR I think they could have a winner on their hands. They need to do them with the antenna, nose lift rings, modified number boards, and the 3 cab vents the railroad added by removing one of the side windows. I know there are a few more but these are the major differences. Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 02:02:33 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] 1944 MP229 is online Hello list, One of our group was interested in B29s assignments circa 1944. The 1944 MP229 (assignment of locomotives) is online and you can research until your eyes glaze over (grin!). Here's the URL. http://www.wsbcos.com/mp229/mp229.htm Doug __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 08:00:12 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Clearance Car Claus and others interested in the clearance car. The clearance car was in the Clearance Department of the Chief Engineer's Office. The Clearance Department was made up of: Clearance Engineer, Jack Greenlee, Asst. Clearance Eng. Andy Bodner and Clearance Car Operators Dave Likens and Earl Snyder. The car was designed by the Mechanical Department and the Chief Engineer's Clearance Department and was built at the railroad's Altoona Works in Altoona, PA in 1950. Earl Snyder BTW, other railroads leased the car and its operating crew. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 08:02:08 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Delivering Sand Claus and others interested in the delivering of sand before the use of covered hoppers. This is from my mechanical department experts. Sand was shipped in various ways, gondola, hopper and boxcar. When shipped in open gondolas it was naturally wet ("green sand"), and needed to be dried. A clam shell crane usually deposited it in a hopper (not a railroad car) where it was dried before entering the "dry storage bin." It was then fed to the loco sand box by gravity. Some sand structures were part of the coal dock, others separate units altogether. At smaller locations green sand was placed in the drier by wheelbarrow or locomotive crane clamshell and then blown up to overhead tanks. Some points such as the large enginehouses - East Altoona, Enola, Harrisburg, etc. had coal-sand docks that used the same hoist buckets to take the green sand to the storage tanks and coal to the coal bin---utilizing the same pit to dump in. At these locations we received the sand in older more obsolete open-top hoppers H22s, 25s, 31s etc. Of course it also was wet and had to be dried before it could be blown up into the dry sand bins of the coal dock or where ever else it was kept before dumping it into locomotive sand boxes. The drying operation was tedious and a little labor intensive with a laborer shoveling the wet sand into a hopper that surrounded the drying stove. As the sand dried it fell into a collection "room" below the stove from which, when enough had accumulated, it was blown to the overhead bins. The sand house was always warm in the winter and thus became the collection point for those less inspired to earn their pay, and had to be cleared out regularly. Some small enginehouses also had their sand shipped dry in X29s or other box cars in heavy paper bags. It's not sure if it was dried, bagged and shipped from the large enginehouses, or bought commercially. Carl Korn and Bob Watson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 10:03:35 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Weekend Chief 2003 PRR Calendar Dale, I am pretty sure the John is not making a PRR calendar. He was having difficulty finding suitable photos that have not been uses 100 times before, so he offered the collection of the photos to the Phila. Chapter of the PRR T&HS about 2 years ago. He would still print it, but give most of the profits to the Phila. Chapter. No one took the lead on the photo collection to the best of my knowledge. I have all of the Weekend Chief PRR calendars for the past 10 years. I to will miss it. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:01:34 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Main Line in Jersey City Maybe this was discussed at the time (last summer) so if so, apologies, but did we note that abandonment at that time by Conrail of a few miles of the original PRR main line, namely what was left east of Hack (east of the old Marion Jct actually), through Journal Square (Waldo tower area)? If there is any service on the remaining line it must be practically nonexistent and the rails seem to show no use. Of course, the PATH system continues to operate through the cut, so we could argue that the PRR main survives. The line in recent years connected with the Conrail River Line, ex-Erie I think, running north through the west side of Hoboken and then to the ex-West Shore tunnel; this is being given over to the new light rail system, thus the abandonment through Waldo. (Interestingly, my Steam Powered Video 1993 Northeast atlas shows the line as abandoned already, a bit premature!) This raises a question or two in my mind. Presumably the line through western Jersey City underwent major reconstruction at the time of the H&M construction and the opening of Penn Station; do both the Hackensack River drawbridges date from this era? What was there originally, when all PRR trains ran to Jersey City? And after the rebuild, how did the remaining PRR trains serving Jersey City operate (e.g. the Broker, running into the 1950s?) We see those memorable shots of the Broker along Raritan Bay in the last years, but how did the train run through Jersey City? Did these trains run on the H&M tracks, on the high-level Hackensack River bridge; or did they take the low-level bridge currently used by CSX/NS freights, leading (today, anyway) to the yards? With apologies to Lines West fans for raising yet another Big Red Subway topic. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KLJURY@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 11:42:52 EST Subject: [PRR] Coal wharves --part1_8b.20cd3a71.2b09210c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Speaking of coal docks or wharves does anyone know how many PRR coal wharves still exist? Is there still one standing in the abandoned yard at Port Carbon on the Schuylkill branch near Pottsville? --part1_8b.20cd3a71.2b09210c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Speaking of coal docks or wharves does anyone know how many PRR
coal wharves still exist? Is there still one standing in the abandoned yard
at Port Carbon on the Schuylkill branch near Pottsville? --part1_8b.20cd3a71.2b09210c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Evans" Subject: RE: [PRR] Lines West talk list Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 09:03:07 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C28E18.24FD8930 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Earl, Try the Yahoo Groups PennsyWest List: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PennsyWest/?yguid=1481934 Mark T. Evans Anaheim, CA ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C28E18.24FD8930 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Earl,
 
Try = the Yahoo=20 Groups PennsyWest List:
 
http:/= /groups.yahoo.com/group/PennsyWest/?yguid=3D1481934
 
Mark T.=20 Evans
Anaheim,=20 CA
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C28E18.24FD8930-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:09:20 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR E7's from BLI Actually what we see and call a Phase 2 was actually field modifications to an EMD recommendation for increased airflow to the E-7s. Some railroads never modified there E-7 saying that the other roads just never ran them fast enough, so says the "Q" guys. Andy Cich writes... << For those that don't know, what is called the Phase II car body is a modification made in the early 50's to increase cooling. I'm aware of 4 changes. First, as Todd mentioned, the 3 filters added to the side, where 1 window was replaced. 2nd, an opening was added on the upper rear panel. Next, the filter behind the cab door was changed (P2K has this part, check their DGLE EP20's Vs their Tuscan EP20's). Finally, the roof openings were changed.>> These changes started showing up in the first quarter of 1951, I have not pinned it down closer than that yet. They came in stages not all at once. The roof changes consisted of the louvers on the roof being replaced with wire grating, "chicken wire." <> The number boards were a separate change implemented by the PRR at a different time and not all units were converted by the end of the 50's. Also as axles were changed out the bearing types were swapped out as well. Also watch, there are 3 different pilot types as well. <> Delta Models already has the parts for the roof conversion, a must for the modeler that models 1953 and beyond, the question is which units to use and I have to say the Model Powers/Con Cor are very nice, but I understand there are some issues with the later units drive trains. There is an ALINE Power repower kit for these. I will work on a similar piece like the F units for the E units that Jerry has posted to his site. "All in good time my little pretty..." Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:13:41 -0500 From: Dale Dembinski Subject: [PRR] Re: Weekend Chief 2003 PRR Calendar What an absolute shame. One would think that such a calendar would be a great moneymaker for the PRRT&HS, and a great vehicle to reach out to new members. I believe the N&W and NKP societies publish their own calendars, and there may be others. I noticed that unless I missed something, there have been no other posts on PRR calendars. So with Weekend Chief leaving the market, we now only have the CEDCO calendar and the Audio-Visual Design calendar. They are both nice calendars, but it is nicer to have a choice between three or more calendars. Dale Bill Lane wrote: > Dale, > > I am pretty sure the John is not making a PRR calendar. He was having > difficulty finding suitable photos that have not been uses 100 times before, > so he offered the collection of the photos to the Phila. Chapter of the PRR > T&HS about 2 years ago. He would still print it, but give most of the > profits to the Phila. Chapter. No one took the lead on the photo collection > to the best of my knowledge. > > I have all of the Weekend Chief PRR calendars for the past 10 years. I to > will miss it. > > Thanks > Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:44:33 -0500 From: Dale Dembinski Subject: [PRR] Reproduction PRR Depot Posters I see that there is a firm offering full-size 27 X 36 inch PRR reproduction advertising posters on eBay for $25. It is the PRR poster WASHINGTON - THE CITY BEAUTIFUL that shows the capital dome in the background with a GGI in the foreground. This firm has been offering this poster regularly for the past few weeks. Did this company purchase the reprint rights to this poster, or is it OK to reproduce artwork after a certain point? If I had one of the original Washington posters myself I wouldn't be too happy because this will reduce their selling value. I guess it would be better if the reproductions were smaller than the originals, so you could tell you were getting a reproduction, and they would not take away any value fromt the originals. However, since these posters are difficult to find, I hope they do other PRR posters, so I can pick a couple up for my collection. Personally, I would be interested in a Christmas poster that has the tuscan PRR diesels visible through a holly wreath in a window. It was on the rear cover of a KEYSTONE years ago. But these don't seem to ever become available. (if you have one of these and want to let it go, email me! - ddembinski@centurytel.net) Here's a link to the WASHINGTON - THE CITY BEAUTIFUL poster on Bay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=736311549 Dale ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI Hudson Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:43:17 -0500 I wonder what Pennsy steam engines would be feasible for BLI to come out with. I would guess that the Bachmann K4 might deter BLI from doing a K4. My guess would be that a H, I J, and L would all be feasible. (I didn't include the T1 and M1a/b b/c they are already announced) I would if either of the S's would be a possibility just because they are so unique. It will be interesting to see what will come out next. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 14:37:19 -0500 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] Reproduction PRR Depot Posters Dale Dembinski wrote: > > I see that there is a firm offering full-size 27 X 36 inch PRR > reproduction advertising posters on eBay for $25. It is the PRR poster > WASHINGTON - THE CITY BEAUTIFUL that shows the capital dome in the > background with a GGI in the foreground. This firm has been offering > this poster regularly for the past few weeks. > > Did this company purchase the reprint rights to this poster, or is it OK > to reproduce artwork after a certain point? > > If I had one of the original Washington posters myself I wouldn't be too > happy because this will reduce their selling value. I guess it would be > better if the reproductions were smaller than the originals, so you > could tell you were getting a reproduction, and they would not take away > any value fromt the originals. > > However, since these posters are difficult to find, I hope they do other > PRR posters, so I can pick a couple up for my collection. > > Personally, I would be interested in a Christmas poster that has the > tuscan PRR diesels visible through a holly wreath in a window. It was on > the rear cover of a KEYSTONE years ago. But these don't seem to ever > become available. (if you have one of these and want to let it go, email > me! - ddembinski@centurytel.net) > > Here's a link to the WASHINGTON - THE CITY BEAUTIFUL poster on Bay: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=736311549 > > Dale If they do have reproduction rights, they better get the year right. This is listed as a PRR poster from 1931! :) Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR Question on Consumers perspective. Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:00:17 -0500 Group, I am in the midst of going back to school and getting my masters degree. I know, what does that have to do with PRR and this group? I am doing research for my economics class for our term paper and the paper has to deal with the demand of consumers. My paper's topic is what drives PRR model railroaders to purchase their models? Any and all comments would be appreciated. Factors such as price, quality, kit or RTR are what I am keying on but I want to be sure I am heading in the right direction. Also do you think that the economy has a bearing on what the major manufactures produce? Thank you in advance! Hope I am not straying too far from the subject of PRR. Sam Vastano _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:10:27 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Question on Consumers perspective. From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" on 11/17/02 3:00 PM, Sam Vastano at svastano@hotmail.com wrote: > My paper's topic is what drives PRR model railroaders > to purchase their models? Insanity!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:21:22 -0500 From: Dale Dembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] Reproduction PRR Depot Posters --------------4F90D6201B96E13AE59BEC01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit They don't care as long as they sell the posters! Bill wrote: > Dale Dembinski wrote: > > > > I see that there is a firm offering full-size 27 X 36 inch PRR > > reproduction advertising posters on eBay for $25. It is the PRR poster > > WASHINGTON - THE CITY BEAUTIFUL that shows the capital dome in the > > background with a GGI in the foreground. This firm has been offering > > this poster regularly for the past few weeks. > > > > Did this company purchase the reprint rights to this poster, or is it OK > > to reproduce artwork after a certain point? > > > > If I had one of the original Washington posters myself I wouldn't be too > > happy because this will reduce their selling value. I guess it would be > > better if the reproductions were smaller than the originals, so you > > could tell you were getting a reproduction, and they would not take away > > any value fromt the originals. > > > > However, since these posters are difficult to find, I hope they do other > > PRR posters, so I can pick a couple up for my collection. > > > > Personally, I would be interested in a Christmas poster that has the > > tuscan PRR diesels visible through a holly wreath in a window. It was on > > the rear cover of a KEYSTONE years ago. But these don't seem to ever > > become available. (if you have one of these and want to let it go, email > > me! - ddembinski@centurytel.net) > > > > Here's a link to the WASHINGTON - THE CITY BEAUTIFUL poster on Bay: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=736311549 > > > > Dale > > If they do have reproduction rights, they better get the year right. > This is listed as a PRR poster from 1931! :) > > Bill Morlitz > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------4F90D6201B96E13AE59BEC01 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit They don't care as long as they sell the posters!

Bill wrote:

Dale Dembinski wrote:
>
> I see that there is a firm offering full-size 27 X 36 inch PRR
> reproduction advertising posters on eBay for $25.  It is the PRR poster
> WASHINGTON - THE CITY BEAUTIFUL  that shows the capital dome in the
> background with a GGI in the foreground.  This firm has been offering
> this poster regularly for the past few weeks.
>
> Did this company purchase the reprint rights to this poster, or is it OK
> to reproduce artwork after a certain point?
>
> If I had one of the original Washington posters myself I wouldn't be too
> happy because this will reduce their selling value. I guess it would be
> better if the reproductions were smaller than the originals, so you
> could tell you were getting a reproduction, and they would not take away
> any value fromt the originals.
>
> However, since these posters are difficult to find, I hope they do other
> PRR posters, so I can pick a couple up for my collection.
>
> Personally, I would be interested in a Christmas poster that has the
> tuscan PRR diesels visible through a holly wreath in a window. It was on
> the rear cover of a KEYSTONE years ago.  But these don't seem to ever
> become available. (if you have one of these and want to let it go, email
> me!  - ddembinski@centurytel.net)
>
> Here's a link to the WASHINGTON - THE CITY BEAUTIFUL poster on Bay:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=736311549
>
> Dale

If they do have reproduction rights, they better get the year right.
This is listed as a PRR poster from 1931!   :)

Bill Morlitz

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

--------------4F90D6201B96E13AE59BEC01-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:27:57 -0500 From: John Ryan Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR E7's from BLI Overland has marketed an E-7 drive. John Ryan Snip ><the kitbash. I also heard on another list that Delta Models plans to release >resin parts 1st Quarter 2003 that will make this kitbash easier. >Andy Cich>> > >Delta Models already has the parts for the roof conversion, a must for the >modeler that models 1953 and beyond, the question is which units to use and I >have to say the Model Powers/Con Cor are very nice, but I understand there >are some issues with the later units drive trains. There is an ALINE Power >repower kit for these. > >Snip > >Greg Martin > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:31:00 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Coal wharves This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_w5gjxrQ8WMxT5SJNKJkaDw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Re still standing coal wharves. The lower concrete section of the coal facility at Wheatland Yard on the E&P was still standing in 2001. Al --Boundary_(ID_w5gjxrQ8WMxT5SJNKJkaDw) Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message
Re still standing coal wharves.
 
The lower concrete section of the coal facility at Wheatland Yard on the E&P was still standing in 2001.
 
Al
--Boundary_(ID_w5gjxrQ8WMxT5SJNKJkaDw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:42:12 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: Clearance cars and sand Jerry said of the clearance car> May have been in MW dept., but numerous sources say it ran as a "passenger extra". Yes it's true the clearance car ran as a passenger extra when in operation, but what it ran as and what department it was in has no correlation. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 13:13:09 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Weekend Chief 2003 PRR Calendar Hi All, Speaking of Audio-Visual Calendars does anyone have a URL for them? Did a Google search and way to many "audio-visual design" hits. Thanks in advance. Respectfully, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 16:36:20 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Weekend Chief 2003 PRR Calendar From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" on 11/17/02 4:13 PM, Ron Dugas at rond@efn.org wrote: > Speaking of Audio-Visual Calendars does anyone have a URL for them? Did > a Google search and way to many "audio-visual design" hits. > http://www.audiovisualdesigns.com/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 20:06:28 EST Subject: [PRR] Lines West list... --part1_1c4.1b979b6.2b099714_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/17/02 1:11:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Gents; > Anyone out there know if there is a Lines West talk list or such?? > Earl Myers > Hi Earl, Yes - we are called PennsyWest and are (alas) accessed via Yahoo.com. Just as with Lines West trains, the traffic is a little lighter, but we do have fun examining PRR's "Lines West of Pittsburgh and Erie". Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1c4.1b979b6.2b099714_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/17/02 1:11:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Gents;
Anyone out there know if there is a Lines West talk list or such??
Earl Myers
<emyers5@neo.rr.com>


Hi Earl,

Yes - we are called PennsyWest and are (alas) accessed via Yahoo.com.  Just as with Lines West trains, the traffic is a little lighter, but we do have fun examining PRR's "Lines West of Pittsburgh and Erie".

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West
--part1_1c4.1b979b6.2b099714_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:42:31 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Question on Consumers perspective. Sam: Besides Jerry's very good answer , I do some repair work for a hobby shop and there are two groups of people buying PRR equipment I see. 1) The "around the XMAS tree" crowd. They are looking for RTR, cheap equipment and don't care less if PRR never had Tuscan F7's. The Athearn units look fine pulling the Athearn streamline passenger cars... (Note: the newer Athearn Genesis line does NOT fit into this class and are made for group 2 below). These people buy PRR because they remember seeing it as a kid. A lot go for Lionel or MTH in addition to the HO Athearn... Some can be convinced to pay for a Spectrum steam engine (especially the K4's), but very few are willing to pay more for the Athearn Genesis or Mantua... Athearn is most popular with Mantua diesels a close second (of course, this was all before Mantua ceased to exist)... In my opinion, this is DEFINITELY a major influence on companies like Athearn... Since group 2 would not buy Tuscan F7s... 2) The prototype modelers. These are the people with the year-round layouts in various degrees of seriousness. As you could tell from looking at the December MR thread on this group recently, there is a group who would NEVER buy anything non-prototypical. Price is not a real issue with these people (most have brass)... RTR is not a real issue either... Most assemble/paint/kitbash their own models. There are people (such as myself and the gentleman in the December MR) that take a slightly less prototypical approach. We "freelance" model railroads BASED on the PRR. As Jerry eloquently puts it, we try to capture the "flavor" of the PRR without accurately modeling actual locations, etc... We all have a slightly different degree of what is "acceptable". My personal opinions follow (and do not necessarily reflect anybody else's): 1) It does NOT bother me that the Bachmann K4 has the wrong size drivers. It does bother me that it does not run well. Power pickup can be a problem, and both of my two "hesitate" at middle speed ranges, even with back-EMF decoders. It bothers me that the P2K Heritage 0-6-0 can not pull 5 cars up a 2% grade. I bothers me that the Heritage 0-8-0 needs wipers installed on the tender in order not to stall on unpowered frogs. 2) I put antenna sets on all prototypically correct cabins, locomotives. 3) I use passenger locos in passenger service and freight in freight (with some such as the M-1 being dual service). 4) I run a different "mix" of cars than what PRR did. I do not worry about what percentage of hoppers should be class H21a... 5) I go so far as to try and make sure that my steam generator equiped RS-12 is actually a road number that HAD a steam generator. In summary, I am looking for good looking, good running models that are at least very close for PRR prototypes. I will (and have) paid more for some of the better Stewart, P2K Heritage models -- but I expect them to work well. I am greatly disappointed in the pulling power of the Heritage 0-6-0... I am in the process of replacing some old (mostly Athearn) "Sante Fe" PRR models (PRR models based on SF prototype) with more accurate models. While I can tolerate extra rivets, I can not tolerate cars the derail, uncouple, or cause problems to operation (and I frequently back 30 car trains up grade). Main factors I consider: 1) Is the model accurate for my era of the PRR? 2) Will it run/look good? 3) Is it something my railroad could use (T1's didn't run on my part of the PRR)? 4) Can I afford it (or can I find a way :-) )? Sam asks... > Also do you think that the economy has a bearing on what the major > manufactures produce? This is getting away from the PRR, but I have an associate's degree in Business administration and I think (and this also may or may not be accurate in any way)... 1) The economy effects what consumers purchase. (If you don't think so, talk to my friends who have been laid off or had spouses laid off recently). 2) In today's economy, any company that wants to stay in business needs to pay attention to the consumers. 3) A company has 2 choices in today's economy. First, make cheap products for the XMAS tree crowd and for grandfathers to buy for their grandchildren for XMAS (see Athearn). Second, they can make new products that the prototype modeler HAS to have. Best recent PRR examples... Heritage HH-1, Stewart VO-1000... These are models only done before in brass and therefore fall into a market niche. I suspect the BLI M-1 will also be in this group shortly. 4) Offer something new and exciting... Best example -- BLI and it's built in sound. I know two PRR modelers who purchased NYC hudsons to decide how many M1's they wanted to buy. The other side -- whichever company offered "another F unit" most recently (probably still without antennas and possibly with the wrong paint scheme and pilot). Personal opinion--biggest improvement all companies could make in PRR diesels -- GET THE COLOR RIGHT!!!! Or, in the very least, make the B unit the SAME color as the A unit (LL P1K C-Liners). Well, that's my 2 cents worth -- feel free to flame away. Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWSNRHS@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:53:53 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Weekend Chief 2003 PRR Calendar --part1_83.23b38964.2b09be51_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/17/2002 4:25:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, rond@efn.org writes: > > > Hi All, > > Speaking of Audio-Visual Calendars does anyone have a URL for them? Did > a Google search and way to many "audio-visual design" hits. > > Thanks in advance. > > Respectfully, > Check out: AUDIO VISUALS CALENDAR PRR Dave Seidel, Altoona PA --part1_83.23b38964.2b09be51_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/17/2002 4:25:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, rond@efn.org writes:




Hi All,

Speaking of Audio-Visual Calendars does anyone have a URL for them? Did
a Google search and way to many "audio-visual design" hits.

Thanks in advance.

Respectfully,


Check out:   AUDIO VISUALS CALENDAR PRR

Dave Seidel, Altoona PA --part1_83.23b38964.2b09be51_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 00:38:45 -0500 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Shifters, Switchers and such --On Sunday, November 17, 2002 1:10 AM -0500 PRR-Talk wrote: > Subject: RE: [PRR] Shifters, Switchers and such > From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr" > Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 02:27:47 -0500 > > I believe on the island of Sodor, under the direction of Sir > Topemhat, the action of switching is refered to as shunting. As you may > not know, the show originated in England. Shunt engines in the UK are > switch engines in the US. Perhaps in that part of the US that is irrelevant, heh, heh. But on the Standard Railroad of the World (with apologies to the Raj) they were SHIFTERS. Vagel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 00:50:04 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] 6th Annual Modeling Needs Survey! -- --part1_12f.1b6e65b6.2b09d98c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/15/02 11:27:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > Please try to be specific with the PRR class. If you are looking for mass > quantities, indicate that as well. Please DO NOT include models of classes > that have already been announced for production. > What about models that were announced eons ago that have little if any hope of ever becoming a reality at the hands of the villainous manufacturer who made the announcement? (I am specifically referring to Branchline's long-awaited heavyweight Pullmans.) Chris Baker #1918 --part1_12f.1b6e65b6.2b09d98c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/15/02 11:27:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

Please try to be specific with the PRR class. If you are looking for mass
quantities, indicate that as well. Please DO NOT include models of classes
that have already been announced for production.


What about models that were announced eons ago that have little if any hope of ever becoming a reality at the hands of the villainous manufacturer who made the announcement?  (I am specifically referring to Branchline's long-awaited heavyweight Pullmans.)

Chris Baker #1918 --part1_12f.1b6e65b6.2b09d98c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 00:56:08 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article --part1_144.2e8cc37.2b09daf8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/14/02 6:48:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, v-scarpitti@att.net writes: > The majority of trains (and RR profits) are in freight, rather > > than passengers. > > There are magazines dedicated to passenger service. > What magazines are dedicated to passenger service? Passenger Train Journal went kaput years ago, merged into Pacific Rail News or something and now carries very little intercity passenger rail news. Face it, TRAINS is it for rail-focused publications that inform about passenger service. Chris Baker #1918 --part1_144.2e8cc37.2b09daf8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/14/02 6:48:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, v-scarpitti@att.net writes:

The majority of trains (and RR profits) are in freight, rather
>  than passengers.
>  There are magazines dedicated to passenger service.


What magazines are dedicated to passenger service?  Passenger Train Journal went kaput years ago, merged into Pacific Rail News or something and now carries very little intercity passenger rail news.  Face it, TRAINS is it for rail-focused publications that inform about passenger service.

Chris Baker #1918 --part1_144.2e8cc37.2b09daf8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:37:52 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Question on Consumers perspective. Sam, This may make your paper harder to write(grin!), but here goes. As a kid, I liked steam engines. Over time (courtesy of several visits to the RR Museum of PA and the Strasburg RR as a kid), the PRR virus bit, and I began buying everything I could afford that was lettered for PRR (mostly Athearn freight cars, an MDC PRRish 2-6-2, a Bowser H9s, and some Eastern Car Works passenger cars). Being a lone wolf modeler, I didn't have a lot of prototype info beyond a few books and the modelling articles I saw. After I joined the PRRT&HS in 1993, I became a lot more era specific, and I relettered a lot of my early equipment to fit my interest in 1948 (circle keystone in, shadow keystone out...grin!). As my income has improved, I have become somewhat less price sensitive; I even purchased a Lambert H6sb a few years ago. I still like to build kits (putting me out of phase with hobby trends). Since I move a lot, I'm concerned about durability. I purchase more Bowser steamers because I can easily get parts for them, I can detail them to suite my tastes, and I have built enough of them that I can get them to run smoothly. First cost is somewhat less of a factor; I buy the more expensive Bowser engine kits (vs Bachmann K4s) because my cost per hour of hobby fun is less. If I buy a $200 kit (kit, superdetails, and repower kit from Alliance) and spend 50 hours building it, my cost per hour is less than buying a $100 engine and plopping it on the track. As always, bear in mind that I don't have space for a layout. I would think that with the economy currently being not so stellar, that modelers would try to stretch their dollars and build more kits. However, the current trend in the hobby seems to be towards ready to run.... Doug --- Sam Vastano wrote, in part: > Group, > > I am doing research for my economics class for our term paper and the paper has to deal with the > demand of consumers. My paper's topic is what drives > PRR model railroaders to purchase their models? Any and all comments would be appreciated. Factors such as price, quality, kit or RTR are what I am keying on but I want to be sure I am heading in the right direction. Also do you think that the economy has a bearing on what the major manufactures produce? Thank you in advance! > > > Sam Vastano > > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 22:46:00 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI Eric, list, My suggestion for BLI would be an H6sb with the air tank on the pilot deck and power reverse (1940s-50s). PRR, LIRR, PRSL, and B&O modelers (not to mention several short lines)can all use this engine (there are substantial detail differences for the B&O E-24a version, but the basic boiler and chassis remain). There were about 540 H6sb over the years and 30 E-24a (about 200 H6, 1200 H6a, 600 H6b, and just shy of 200 E-24s were built altogether). While most PRR H6sb were gone by 1950, two (2846 and 3110) lingered until 1955 and the last B&O E-24a were retired in 1956 (the derived L1 0-8-0 lasted until the end of B&O steam in 1958). As a small engine (for the 40s and 50s), the H6sb fit just about everywhere. Doug --- Eric Lauterbach wrote, in part: > I wonder what Pennsy steam engines would be feasible > for BLI to come out with. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Phil Paskos" Subject: Re: [PRR] 1944 MP229 is online Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 07:27:13 -0500 Doug's list is of great help to me as I own a M1a 6715 in 1" live steam scale. What I need is how to label the pilot correctly. I know it was assigned to Enola (EE?) , but what is the 3 letter code on the right of the pilot? Or better yet, Where can I find these listings? Phil > Hello list, > > One of our group was interested in B29s assignments > circa 1944. > > The 1944 MP229 (assignment of locomotives) is online > and you can research until your eyes glaze over > (grin!). > > Here's the URL. > > http://www.wsbcos.com/mp229/mp229.htm > > Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR Question on Consumers Perspective. Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:08:09 -0500 Just wanted to give a big thank you to all who responded top my questions! It will be a great help in writing my paper. Thanks Sam Vastano _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 05:42:17 -0800 (PST) From: Randolph Harrison Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Layout tours --0-317756116-1037626937=:81231 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii What impressive catenary work! do these gentlemen give tours to people that they don't know? Like me for instance? If so, how do I get in touch with them? Randy Harrison Bill Lane wrote:Hi All, I went to tour Charlie Carangie and Charlie Grant's layouts last night in Delaware. I have been to Charlie Carangie's many times before. It was my first visit to Charlie Grant's. They are both a must see for fans of Pennsy Catenary! Here are a few photos from last night. I have a Fuji S602 digital camera. Some photos were taken without a tripod and with the available light at about a 3 second exposure. I think it still gets the point across. I shot them at the lowest resolution because I knew I was going to post them here. I have some that are really chunky if you want to zoom around them. I will email them to you if you don't have HOTMAIL. I also included a shot of my oh so bored wife in the mix. Just don't tell her...... Some of the links are pretty big, so give them time to load! Enjoy! http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/Charlie_Carangie.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/Charlie_Grant1.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/Charlie_Grant2.jpg Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site --0-317756116-1037626937=:81231 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

What impressive catenary work! do these gentlemen give tours to people that they don't know? Like me for instance? If so, how do I get in touch with them?

Randy Harrison

 Bill Lane <billlane@comcast.net> wrote:

Hi All,

I went to tour Charlie Carangie and Charlie Grant's layouts last night in
Delaware. I have been to Charlie Carangie's many times before. It was my
first visit to Charlie Grant's. They are both a must see for fans of Pennsy
Catenary!

Here are a few photos from last night. I have a Fuji S602 digital camera.
Some photos were taken without a tripod and with the available light at
about a 3 second exposure. I think it still gets the point across. I shot
them at the lowest resolution because I knew I was going to post them here.
I have some that are really chunky if you want to zoom around them. I will
email them to you if you don't have HOTMAIL. I also included a shot of my oh
so bored wife in the mix. Just don't tell her......

Some of the links are pretty big, so give them time to load!

Enjoy!

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/Ch Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site --0-317756116-1037626937=:81231-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:44:11 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Cornwall Railroad Op session 11/16 a success Listers, I want to thanks everyone that offered suggestions about the photographer that visited during my op session on Saturday 11/16/2002. The op session was scheduled for 1:00PM and some of the crew arrived between 12:00 and 12:45PM. The photographer arrived around 12:30. He stayed until a little after 1:45. I was able to talk to him about the layout and the purpose of the op session. Since he was a free-lance photographer he had not discussed what the article was about with the reporter that interviewed me on Tuesday nor had he been briefed very well. The op session started after he took a few pictures of the layout. When things got rolling the only evidence he was around was when I saw his flash go off. He took pictures of the dispatcher's panel and our dispatcher, Brad White. He was impressed that so many people would travel from as far away as Erie, Pa. to my home in Shermans Dale, Pa. just outside of Harrisburg. He asked "how many people do this sort of thing?" and I told him there are literally hundreds, if not thousands, of modelers that operate their railroads rather than run them in circles. He was really interested in the fact that we communicated with radios instead of just talking to each other. When I told him that the radios only provided access to the dispatcher for traffic movement he got a better picture of their purpose. Although he didn't want to take a throttle to test drive a small commuter train he got a different understanding of what we are all about. After he left, the session lasted until around 4:30 and the crews retired to the local pizza shop for the after-session critique. I was really impressed that the session went so smoothly even though all but 4 people had ever operated on or even seen my layout before. The new dispatcher had only about 10 minutes to take a look around the layout and get a small briefing on the CTC panel before the trains started moving. He performed like he had been dispatching for the Cornwall Railroad for years. Great job Brad !! Only two members couldn't make it and had to cancel at the last minute but that didn't cause any real problems for the session. We were able to run all but two trains on the schedule nad we even had a situation where an Eastbound coal drag stalled on the hill and we were forced to call out a helper from the engine facilities in Lickdale. The traffic was augmented by light engine moves from all over the railroad and there was a lot of traffic that didn't show up on the schedule. Power had to be turned on the wye at Lebanon for turn crews and the Lebanon YM was kept very busy all day, even with two crews helping him. This was the first session in over 9 months and although it took almost a month to make the layout operable again after it had been down since February, the addition of the new turntable and engine facilities proved to be a good addition. I am planning to continue my sessins on a regular monthly basis now. I have learned to think hard about projects that will disable operations until they are finished and from now on, they will need to be very important to do that. I will be posting my crew calls for my sessions on this board as well as the Callboard lists. Contact information is available through the Callboard for those interested. My enthusiasm has been revived after several failed attempts over the past year. Be prepared for the crew calls and please join us if you are available. Regards, Nick Kulp President and hired lackey grade 3 Cornwall Railroad http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 08:50:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Layout tours From: Jerry Britton On 11/18/02 8:42 AM, Randolph Harrison (hbcrandy@yahoo.com) wrote: > What impressive catenary work! do these gentlemen give tours to people that > they don't know? Like me for instance? If so, how do I get in touch with them? > The layouts in question were among the 86 or so layouts in southeastern PA, Delaware, and south Jersey that opened for this year's season. Yes, these are open to the public!!! Charlie Grant and Charlie Corangi are among those open nearly every year. If you missed the chance over the past weekend, they will be open again this year. Check the Timetable page on my web site... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/timetable.ws4d In fact, they are both open again this Friday evening. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 07:15:59 -0700 Doug and list, While I agree that an H6sb would be a nice choice for BLI, a much better choice would be an H9s...they were a whole LOT more common, were everywhere, are still a small locomotive, and using the boiler and tender (assuming they do the 7000 gal low tender) you could also do an E6s. I believe that the boiler for the G5 was the same as well (with a steel cab). As things go on for BLI, an H6sb/B&O E24a could be done later on. And I sincerely hope that the Bachmann K4s would not deter BLI from considering a K4s/L1s in the future... While some of you may say "but Bowser does it already" the Bowser H9s-E6s boiler is totally wrong. And don't get me started about the Bowser "low" tender! Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 09:21:13 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Question on Consumers perspective. Dear Sam and others: Having taken just enough economics to be dangerous -- health care econ at that for a Masters in Health Administration -- I can say that you are treading on very shaky ground trying to do a paper on this topic. The amount of info published available is likely none... Hobby spending is use of discretionary income and very much less predictable than spending for food and shelter so that the usual rules don't/won't apply. I think that the comments made earlier on type 1 grandfathers vs Type 2 PRR modelers are quite accurate and reflect your dilemma. Which group are you going to believe? The results of any survey you do for your paper will depend on whom you ask. . . and all of us on this list fall into the latter group! When a manufacturer offers a product, he will have to decide which market segment he is going after since rarely will one product please BOTH groups in the case of PRR products or any other specific railroad. If it fits the Type I budget, its not likely accurate enough for Type 2. If it is for Type 2, it's too expensive for Group I compared to other offerings in the same scale (i.e. N or HO) although they will buy very costly O gauge and G gauge items that aren't accurate! I really think there are two subgroup in type 2: the true rivet counters (no offense intended) who will pay almost any price IF it's really correct -- i.e., $1600 brass and such, and the others (like me) who will pay for "good enough" PRR models that run well, are the correct color, lettering and that come close to fitting the era we are interested in. This seems to be the growing segment of the overall market as witnessed by the growing number and quality of products offered by P2K, Branchline, Genesis and so on. This of course applies to ALL prototype RRs: we are lucky that there are enough PRR modelers that manufacturers will make PRR specific models. Now, to answer your questions: Sam says: "Factors such as price, quality, kit or RTR are what I am keying on. . .do you think that the economy has a bearing?" I buy items that fit my needs first and foremost based on modeling Delmarva in the early 50s. I think that this era is the most popular because it can be both steam and diesel and it's the time I remember from my childhood. [I am 51 but grew up as an Army brat in Europe, Utah, Georgia and Alabama. I moved to Virginia just AFTER the N&W dropped their steam!!] I believe MR mag did a survey a while back on the issue of scale, era, etc. I like kits but will buy RTR. Part of the enjoyment for me is making something creative and opening a box just doesn't do it. I'm a confirmed do-it-yourself type so I may be biased here. Price is somewhat important in that I have many other things to buy beside trains -- books, music, woodworking tools, college tuition for kids and so on. I will gladly pay more for a correct model than for an incorrect one, more for good performance and more for an American made (there are a few...) I won't pay for "limited editions", "collectors items" and all the other permutations that manufacturers come up with to increase price. I buy retail when I can to support the hobby shop guys who have to earn a living too. The economy doesn't have too much of an effect on my buying habits but I think it does have an effect on manufacturers ability to produce NEW models because of the cost of capital and all that. Hope this helps your paper, Jim McDaniel, spending hobby dollars here in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 11:40:01 -0500 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] 1944 MP229 is online Phil, I am not at home so I cannot give a more specific answer at this time. In one of the early issues of the Keystone (I seemed to recall it was in volume 9 or 10 not sure) there was an article which explained the pilot markings and included a number of the codes. One was the Division assignement, the round house within the division where the loco was maintained. I don't recall the others. I will check on the issue when I get home. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:27:20 EST Subject: [PRR] Buyers and manufacturers --part1_74.267c4509.2b0a7cf8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/17/02 4:19:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@ dsop.com writes: > Subject: PRR Question on Consumers perspective. > From: "Sam Vastano" > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:00:17 -0500 > > Group, > > I am in the midst of going back to school and getting my masters degree. I > know, what does that have to do with PRR and this group? I am doing > research > for my economics class for our term paper and the paper has to deal with > the > demand of consumers. My paper's topic is what drives PRR model railroaders > to purchase their models? Any and all comments would be appreciated. > Factors such as price, quality, kit or RTR are what I am keying on but I > want to be sure I am heading in the right direction. Also do you think that > > the economy has a bearing on what the major manufactures produce? Thank > you > in advance! Hope I am not straying too far from the subject of PRR. > > > Sam Vastano Sam, Far be it from me to attempt to describe what Pennsy modelers buy and why. The strongest motivation may be the distinctness of a model from what has come before (different in prototype, in level of detail, or in level of overall quality and fidelity), but the purchase by knowledgeable fans is most strongly driven by the model stirring the emotions -- that is, evoking the prototype. Basically, a good model stirs exciting memories of the railroad. I like your separate question on what manufacturers produce. In the past decade, we saw CAD and digital mold machining make new plastic models cheaper to introduce. We also saw the opening of China as a place to get the manufacturing done. OTOH, with a blazing economy, we've also seen the advent of the $25 freight car -- whether the quality justifies it or not. Some friends close to manufacturers make it very clear that the economy has everything to do with what manufacturers produce. A manufacturer has to get a payback relatively quickly from his investment. If a new item is going to sell briskly, more new items are developed, tooled, and introduced. With the economy slowing in the past two years, we've seen many promised new items stretch out into the future. What's really being introduced is instead new paint and lettering on existing bodies. We can expect as the economy improves (2003?) and employment starts to come back (2004?) that there will be a renewed rush to tool up for new products. OTOH, that rush will last only if buyers return with the spending levels they did before. If buyers are cautious with their bucks, I believe we'll continue to see new products, but at a much-reduced rate of introduction. BTW, the other economic effect to beware of is production cost. Right now, we can source better-than-US quality for peanuts, making the $25 car a great deal for its importer. But eventually the Chinese standard of living will rise, pricing China out of this market (as happened to Japanese brass long ago). Who knows if we can source to another country where the work ethic is strong, manufacturing skills and infrastructure is in place, and the people will work for very low pay? Maybe by then it will be the USA (not entirely a good thought). Rick Tipton Supply Chain Management/Logistics Consultant Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_74.267c4509.2b0a7cf8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/17/02 4:19:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: PRR Question on Consumers perspective.
From: "Sam Vastano" <svastano@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:00:17 -0500

Group,

I am in the midst of going back to school and getting my masters degree. I
know, what does that have to do with PRR and this group? I am doing research
for my economics class for our term paper and the paper has to deal with the
demand of consumers. My paper's topic is what drives PRR model railroaders
to purchase their models?  Any and all comments would be appreciated. 
Factors such as price, quality, kit or RTR are what I am keying on but I
want to be sure I am heading in the right direction. Also do you think that
the economy has a bearing on what the major manufactures produce?  Thank you
in advance!  Hope I am not straying too far from the subject of PRR.


Sam Vastano


Sam,

Far be it from me to attempt to describe what Pennsy modelers buy and why.  The strongest motivation may be the distinctness of a model from what has come before (different in prototype, in level of detail, or in level of overall quality and fidelity), but the purchase by knowledgeable fans is most strongly driven by the model stirring the emotions -- that is, evoking the prototype.  Basically, a good model stirs exciting memories of the railroad.

I like your separate question on what manufacturers produce.  In the past decade, we saw CAD and digital mold machining make new plastic models cheaper to introduce.  We also saw the opening of China as a place to get the manufacturing done.  OTOH, with a blazing economy, we've also seen the advent of the $25 freight car -- whether the quality justifies it or not.

Some friends close to manufacturers make it very clear that the economy has everything to do with what manufacturers produce.  A manufacturer has to get a payback relatively quickly from his investment.  If a new item is going to sell briskly, more new items are developed, tooled, and introduced.  With the economy slowing in the past two years, we've seen many promised new items stretch out into the future.  What's really being introduced is instead new paint and lettering on existing bodies.

We can expect as the economy improves (2003?) and employment starts to come back (2004?) that there will be a renewed rush to tool up for new products.  OTOH, that rush will last only if buyers return with the spending levels they did before.  If buyers are cautious with their bucks, I believe we'll continue to see new products, but at a much-reduced rate of introduction.

BTW, the other economic effect to beware of is production cost.  Right now, we can source better-than-US quality for peanuts, making the $25 car a great deal for its importer.  But eventually the Chinese standard of living will rise, pricing China out of this market (as happened to Japanese brass long ago).  Who knows if we can source to another country where the work ethic is strong, manufacturing skills and infrastructure is in place, and the people will work for very low pay?  Maybe by then it will be the USA (not entirely a good thought).

Rick Tipton
Supply Chain Management/Logistics Consultant
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_74.267c4509.2b0a7cf8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:27:18 EST Subject: [PRR] Nobody ever apologized before (Hackensack draws, etc.) --part1_199.10c76720.2b0a7cf6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/17/02 4:19:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > This raises a question or two in my mind. Presumably the line > through western Jersey City underwent major reconstruction at the > time of the H&M construction and the opening of Penn Station; do > both the Hackensack River drawbridges date from this era? What > was there originally, when all PRR trains ran to Jersey City? And > after the rebuild, how did the remaining PRR trains serving Jersey > City operate (e.g. the Broker, running into the 1950s?) We see > those memorable shots of the Broker along Raritan Bay in the last > years, but how did the train run through Jersey City? Did these > trains run on the H&M tracks, on the high-level Hackensack River > bridge; or did they take the low-level bridge currently used by > CSX/NS freights, leading (today, anyway) to the yards? > > With apologies to Lines West fans for raising yet another Big Red > Subway topic. > > John Bobsin > John, This is interesting stuff. I even understand some of it. And we don't apologize when we periodically flood you with postings on the Great Unknown West -- it's all PRR. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_199.10c76720.2b0a7cf6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/17/02 4:19:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


This raises a question or two in my mind.  Presumably the line
through western Jersey City underwent major reconstruction at the
time of the H&M construction and the opening of Penn Station; do
both the Hackensack River drawbridges date from this era?  What
was there originally, when all PRR trains ran to Jersey City?  And
after the rebuild, how did the remaining PRR trains serving Jersey
City operate (e.g. the Broker, running into the 1950s?)  We see
those memorable shots of the Broker along Raritan Bay in the last
years, but how did the train run through Jersey City?  Did these
trains run on the H&M tracks, on the high-level Hackensack River
bridge; or did they take the low-level bridge currently used by
CSX/NS freights, leading (today, anyway) to the yards?

With apologies to Lines West fans for raising yet another Big Red
Subway topic.

John Bobsin

John,

This is interesting stuff.  I even understand some of it.  And we don't apologize when we periodically flood you with postings on the Great Unknown West <G> -- it's all PRR.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_199.10c76720.2b0a7cf6_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Buyers and manufacturers Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 17:56:57 +0000 There is also a very interesting factor in the purchase of models that seems to be changing to a degree. The rarer the prototype the more interest in purchasing a model of it. N Bell > In a message dated 11/17/02 4:19:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@ > dsop.com writes: > > > > Subject: PRR Question on Consumers perspective. > > From: "Sam Vastano" > > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:00:17 -0500 > > > > Group, > > > > I am in the midst of going back to school and getting my masters degree. I > > know, what does that have to do with PRR and this group? I am doing > > research > > for my economics class for our term paper and the paper has to deal with > > the > > demand of consumers. My paper's topic is what drives PRR model railroaders > > to purchase their models? Any and all comments would be appreciated. > > Factors such as price, quality, kit or RTR are what I am keying on but I > > want to be sure I am heading in the right direction. Also do you think that > > > > the economy has a bearing on what the major manufactures produce? Thank > > you > > in advance! Hope I am not straying too far from the subject of PRR. > > > > > > Sam Vastano > > Sam, > > Far be it from me to attempt to describe what Pennsy modelers buy and why. > The strongest motivation may be the distinctness of a model from what has > come before (different in prototype, in level of detail, or in level of > overall quality and fidelity), but the purchase by knowledgeable fans is most > strongly driven by the model stirring the emotions -- that is, evoking the > prototype. Basically, a good model stirs exciting memories of the railroad. > > I like your separate question on what manufacturers produce. In the past > decade, we saw CAD and digital mold machining make new plastic models cheaper > to introduce. We also saw the opening of China as a place to get the > manufacturing done. OTOH, with a blazing economy, we've also seen the advent > of the $25 freight car -- whether the quality justifies it or not. > > Some friends close to manufacturers make it very clear that the economy has > everything to do with what manufacturers produce. A manufacturer has to get > a payback relatively quickly from his investment. If a new item is going to > sell briskly, more new items are developed, tooled, and introduced. With the > economy slowing in the past two years, we've seen many promised new items > stretch out into the future. What's really being introduced is instead new > paint and lettering on existing bodies. > > We can expect as the economy improves (2003?) and employment starts to come > back (2004?) that there will be a renewed rush to tool up for new products. > OTOH, that rush will last only if buyers return with the spending levels they > did before. If buyers are cautious with their bucks, I believe we'll > continue to see new products, but at a much-reduced rate of introduction. > > BTW, the other economic effect to beware of is production cost. Right now, > we can source better-than-US quality for peanuts, making the $25 car a great > deal for its importer. But eventually the Chinese standard of living will > rise, pricing China out of this market (as happened to Japanese brass long > ago). Who knows if we can source to another country where the work ethic is > strong, manufacturing skills and infrastructure is in place, and the people > will work for very low pay? Maybe by then it will be the USA (not entirely a > good thought). > > Rick Tipton > Supply Chain Management/Logistics Consultant > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 13:40:56 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] 6th Annual Modeling Needs Survey! -- From: Jerry Britton Reminder, four more days to submit your opinions. If you need a fresh copy of the survey form, please let me know by e-mail. Thanks. On 11/15/02 11:19 AM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > Time for the 6th Annual "Keystone Crossings/PRR-Talk" Modeling Needs Survey! > > Respond by replying to this message, but send it to me only (not to the > list) at "jerry@pennsyrr.com" and send by Friday, November 22, 4:30 p.m. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 13:58:46 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Layout tours Bill, Any railroad with this cat would be worth a trip, but what scale are these layouts? Thanks, Steve Bartlett Bill Lane wrote: Hi All, I went to tour Charlie Carangie and Charlie Grant's layouts last night in Delaware. I have been to Charlie Carangie's many times before. It was my first visit to Charlie Grant's. They are both a must see for fans of Pennsy Catenary!... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:04:12 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Layout tours From: Jerry Britton On 11/18/02 1:58 PM, Stephen Bartlett (tower.op@verizon.net) wrote: > Any railroad with this cat would be worth a trip, but what scale are > these layouts? They are both HO scale. > > Thanks, > > Steve Bartlett > > > Bill Lane wrote: > > Hi All, > > I went to tour Charlie Carangie and Charlie Grant's layouts last night > in > Delaware. I have been to Charlie Carangie's many times before. It was my > first visit to Charlie Grant's. They are both a must see for fans of > Pennsy > Catenary!... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 14:12:30 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/18/02 --part1_1be.14c29853.2b0a959e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/18/02 1:11:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Re: [PRR] PRR Question on Consumers perspective. > by "Jeff Warner" Very well put, Jeff! I applaud your analysis. While I'm here, I have something to say to the many of you commenting on the Dec MR PRR article: please, please give it a rest for cryin' out loud! Enuff already! Bob Martin --part1_1be.14c29853.2b0a959e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/18/02 1:11:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Re: [PRR] PRR Question on Consumers perspective.
         by "Jeff Warner" <jeffrywarner@suscom.net>
Very well put, Jeff!  I applaud your analysis.  

While I'm here, I have something to say to the many of you commenting on the Dec MR PRR article:  please, please give it a rest for cryin' out loud!  Enuff already!

Bob Martin



--part1_1be.14c29853.2b0a959e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: [PRR] Re: H6sb Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:11:38 -0600 I totally agree! My favorite engine of all time! There were not enough Lamberts imported. And the price has gone too high for those available. So if BLI would come out with the PRR H6/H6a/H6b/H6sb/B&O E24a, I think that would be great. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Kisala" To: ; Sent: Monday, 18 November, 2002 12:46 AMSubject: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI> Eric, list, > My suggestion for BLI would be an H6sb with the air tank on the pilot deck and power reverse (1940s-50s).> > PRR, LIRR, PRSL, and B&O modelers (not to mention several short lines)can all use this engine (there are substantial detail differences for the B&O E-24a version, but the basic boiler and chassis remain). > > There were about 540 H6sb over the years and 30 E-24a> (about 200 H6, 1200 H6a, 600 H6b, and just shy of 200> E-24s were built altogether). While most PRR H6sb> were gone by 1950, two (2846 and 3110) lingered until > 1955 and the last B&O E-24a were retired in 1956 (the> derived L1 0-8-0 lasted until the end of B&O steam in> 1958).> > As a small engine (for the 40s and 50s), the H6sb fit> just about everywhere.> Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Question on Consumers perspective. Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 12:44:21 -0600 Hi! I would like to jump in here for a quick moment. I am a member of some other Consumer type groups (on and off web). A recent query was about what I thought about our economy and how it's going based upon the news media, the 9/11 crisis, what kind of investments I make, etc. My response is this: No matter what happens in our "total" economy, a hobby is always going to be on our list. I personally believe that the American people can and will weather any storm. No matter what "we" spend our money on, and the "dollar" amounts will vary - of course - the American people can and will spend money on hobbies. I know senior citizens (in their 80's) that still buy some hobby materials, maybe mostly magazines. (sorry that this is slightly off target, but!) I am retired, on fixed income, but manage to budget enough money to buy "some" PRR stuff; and always will. Even if it's a kit that winds up on the shelf. I think there a lot of you out there "in the same boat" that probably do the same. If you have more fortitude, the kit will not wind up on the shelf, it gets assembled. The "type 1" PRR fan is what we all were in the beginning, when younger, thought Lionel was "the greatest" and so on. As we became "type 2" or "sub-class", and our expenditures became more "exact", we grow into careful modelers. Buying more accurate PRR etc. But I go back to my original contention. The world may go to He*& in a handbasket, but we PRR SPF's will always find money and time to "play trains" in the greatest hobby in the world. All IMHO. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rick Kolbe" Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 13:57:04 -400 Subject: [PRR] PRR Questions Sam, There are a number of interesting things that I have observed in my rather brief association with purchasing PRR items. First as background, I chose the PRR because of a basic interest in this railroad that has some roots in my childhood. Although I don't know all the sources, it probably has to do with my brother's Lionel trains and those infamous Pennsy N5c cabin cars. When I decided about 6 years ago to get into HO modeling, I selected the PRR for some innate reasons. It just appealed to me. Ever since that time, I have been buying PRR equipment, sometimes making poor choices, while other times being the blind squirrel and finding some nice, prototypic equipment by good fortune. In my purchasing process, I have been pretty active in ebay. That has shown me a couple of things... If the same item is up for sale on ebay, say a Proto 2000 SW9/12000, the Pennsy item will likely have a bid and will sell at a higher price than a comparable item with other RR's paint schemes. I have seen B&O or C&O items go without bids or at substantially lower final bid prices. It seems to me that this phenomenon indicates some real preference and desire for PRR equipment in the marketplace and that the PRR has a great deal of appeal (or else we PRR modelers are just stupid and bidding up these items -- that is a plausible hypothesis too -- though I hope not). When new locos come out, the PRR decorated version usually becomes one of the first sold out by mail order firms (MB Klein, National Hobby Supply, etc. -- primarily those advertising in MR and RMC). While that certainly can be a function of a number of things (i.e, number of locos done by the mfr. in PRR schemes), it might also suggest that there is fairly high demand for quality PRR items. I think it is the latter given the ebay behavior described previously. Price is always a factor, but if the item looks good, operates well, and is either close to prototypic or can be made so relatively easily, that has the most impact on my decision to put the item on my PRR shopping list. The prototypic nature of the item becomes more important the more you know about the PRR, in my estimation. Since the PRR was had some unique qualities (which does make it an interesting RR in and of itself), for me it has become important to capture those idiosyncrasies. For me, there is some type of majesty in the PRR. It was a great railroad for many years and as such can be included among one of the many success stories of American business. I like to be associated with a winner and the PRR was a winner organization for a very long time. When I first read books like Staufer's Pennsy Power and Don Ball's 1940s-1950s Pennsylvania Railroad, I knew right away that I had picked the right railroad. A trip to the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania and Altoona/Horseshoe Curve also helped nail down my preference. There are so many significant things about the PRR that it is both an interesting and challenging railroad to model. For example, you have interesting terrain to model when you do the PRR. Unlike the midwestern railroads where you could easily get by with relatively flat (and subsequently boring) terrain, the Pennsy battled substantial terrain with its doubled headers and helper locos to keep the trains moving. That certainly makes for interesting modeling of terrain and operations. The fact that the PRR ran steam into the mid-1950s also makes it a very interesting railroad for me because I really like steam AND first generation diesels. Also, the 1950s is a time that I can relate to, even if it is the era of my birth. So, this is a double reason why the PRR works, the time frame and the type of motive power come together to make it appealing. The PRR had some awesome motive power, especially steam, and so if I ever get enough money, I can outfit my railroad with some pretty interesting (for me and anyone who visits my layout) locos. That certainly had some impact on my decision to model the PRR. Good luck with your project. Hope these comments help. Consider these to be from a novice of the PRR compared to others in this forum. Rick Kolbe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:04:19 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Questions On Mon, 18 Nov 2002, Rick Kolbe wrote: > When new locos come out, the PRR decorated version usually > becomes one of the first sold out by mail order firms (MB Klein, > National Hobby Supply, etc. -- primarily those advertising in MR > and RMC). While that certainly can be a function of a number of > things (i.e, number of locos done by the mfr. in PRR schemes), it Easiest to strip. At least for the Kato SD40s I'm told this is true. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:18:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Interesting Detail Lists, I recently acquired several vintage photographs which I assume was taken by the PRR or the builder of this particular building. The building, The Pennsylvania Railroads Freight Terminal in Pittsburgh is the main subject in the photos. The photos are dated 12-27-29. I would guess these photos were taken of the newly completed terminal? But anyway, what caught my eye is something else other than the buildings and platforms. On the right hand side of the photo looking slightly down river (the Allegheney River) one can see the double deck Ft Wayne Bridge. No big deal but there, as plane as day, are 2 of the largest Keystones I have ever seen. Never before had I seen a photo of this bridge showing any Keystones. They appear to be about 20 feet tall. I have included 2 photos below. The first is a photo of the photo. (Scanner isn't working) The second is a closeup of the Ft Wayne Bridge showing the Keystones, one on each side. A little blurry but, you get the idea. http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000655.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000654.jpg Is there any other photos that show this feature on the bridge? Wonder what ever happened to them. Anyone want to do some scuba work?.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Question on Consumers perspective. Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 20:33:24 -0000 Sam, I started PRR modelling when the price of the European (Swedish) models I was using hit stg1000 ( pounds sterling ). So initially it was the price/quality of even relatively cheap American models ( e.g. Athearn stg 25 ish ), compared with European prototypes and the UK market at the time made Model Power look good.... Now having learnt more about the subject I buy models in three groups: 1. PRR models of good quality such as Red Caboose for eventual home use, and suitable for the Pittsburgh region in the period 1957 - 1963. Also suitable non PRR stock 2. PRR models still suitable under 1 above but of lower quality e.g. Walthers X29 for use on my exhibition layout, as all stock is handled while fiddling between switching operations. 3. Non PRR stock which the general public in the UK would expect to see on an American layout e.g. billboard reefers. This group is only used for exhibition purposes where the public are invited... In many ways I prefer kits as they give me some "play value" prior to building the planned home layout. Just to note currently prices in the UK are approximately in sterling: Athearn 5.00 Bowser 10.00 Branchline 15.00 Athearn locos from 28 P2K from 50 regards, Patrick Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Vastano" To: ; Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 8:00 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Question on Consumers perspective. > Group, > > I am in the midst of going back to school and getting my masters degree. I > know, what does that have to do with PRR and this group? I am doing research > for my economics class for our term paper and the paper has to deal with the > demand of consumers. My paper's topic is what drives PRR model railroaders > to purchase their models? Any and all comments would be appreciated. > Factors such as price, quality, kit or RTR are what I am keying on but I > want to be sure I am heading in the right direction. Also do you think that > the economy has a bearing on what the major manufactures produce? Thank you > in advance! Hope I am not straying too far from the subject of PRR. > > > Sam Vastano > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 20:34:38 -0000 I agree!!! Also what about a B6 of some sort?? Patrick Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Doug Kisala" ; ; Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 2:15 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI > Doug and list, > > While I agree that an H6sb would be a nice choice for BLI, > a much better choice would be an H9s...they were a whole > LOT more common, were everywhere, are still a small > locomotive, and using the boiler and tender (assuming they > do the 7000 gal low tender) you could also do an E6s. I > believe that the boiler for the G5 was the same as well > (with a steel cab). As things go on for BLI, an H6sb/B&O > E24a could be done later on. > > And I sincerely hope that the Bachmann K4s would not deter > BLI from considering a K4s/L1s in the future... > > While some of you may say "but Bowser does it already" the > Bowser H9s-E6s boiler is totally wrong. And don't get me > started about the Bowser "low" tender! > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] Buyers and manufacturers Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 20:37:09 -0000 That's true! Roco have just done a model of the LKAB C-C + C-C iron ore electric (only 6 double units) and they are now planning to do the previous loco as the current model had been so successful... Patrick Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" ; Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 5:56 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Buyers and manufacturers > There is also a very interesting factor in the purchase of models that seems to > be changing to a degree. The rarer the prototype the more interest in > purchasing a model of it. N Bell > > In a message dated 11/17/02 4:19:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@ > > dsop.com writes: > > > > > > > Subject: PRR Question on Consumers perspective. > > > From: "Sam Vastano" > > > Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2002 15:00:17 -0500 > > > > > > Group, > > > > > > I am in the midst of going back to school and getting my masters degree. I > > > know, what does that have to do with PRR and this group? I am doing > > > research > > > for my economics class for our term paper and the paper has to deal with > > > the > > > demand of consumers. My paper's topic is what drives PRR model railroaders > > > to purchase their models? Any and all comments would be appreciated. > > > Factors such as price, quality, kit or RTR are what I am keying on but I > > > want to be sure I am heading in the right direction. Also do you think that > > > > > > the economy has a bearing on what the major manufactures produce? Thank > > > you > > > in advance! Hope I am not straying too far from the subject of PRR. > > > > > > > > > Sam Vastano > > > > Sam, > > > > Far be it from me to attempt to describe what Pennsy modelers buy and why. > > The strongest motivation may be the distinctness of a model from what has > > come before (different in prototype, in level of detail, or in level of > > overall quality and fidelity), but the purchase by knowledgeable fans is most > > strongly driven by the model stirring the emotions -- that is, evoking the > > prototype. Basically, a good model stirs exciting memories of the railroad. > > > > I like your separate question on what manufacturers produce. In the past > > decade, we saw CAD and digital mold machining make new plastic models cheaper > > to introduce. We also saw the opening of China as a place to get the > > manufacturing done. OTOH, with a blazing economy, we've also seen the advent > > of the $25 freight car -- whether the quality justifies it or not. > > > > Some friends close to manufacturers make it very clear that the economy has > > everything to do with what manufacturers produce. A manufacturer has to get > > a payback relatively quickly from his investment. If a new item is going to > > sell briskly, more new items are developed, tooled, and introduced. With the > > economy slowing in the past two years, we've seen many promised new items > > stretch out into the future. What's really being introduced is instead new > > paint and lettering on existing bodies. > > > > We can expect as the economy improves (2003?) and employment starts to come > > back (2004?) that there will be a renewed rush to tool up for new products. > > OTOH, that rush will last only if buyers return with the spending levels they > > did before. If buyers are cautious with their bucks, I believe we'll > > continue to see new products, but at a much-reduced rate of introduction. > > > > BTW, the other economic effect to beware of is production cost. Right now, > > we can source better-than-US quality for peanuts, making the $25 car a great > > deal for its importer. But eventually the Chinese standard of living will > > rise, pricing China out of this market (as happened to Japanese brass long > > ago). Who knows if we can source to another country where the work ethic is > > strong, manufacturing skills and infrastructure is in place, and the people > > will work for very low pay? Maybe by then it will be the USA (not entirely a > > good thought). > > > > Rick Tipton > > Supply Chain Management/Logistics Consultant > > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:45:30 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI From: Jerry Britton On 11/18/02 3:34 PM, PGrace (pgrace@aspects.net) wrote: > I agree!!! > > Also what about a B6 of some sort?? > While it will be a kit, and likely a "composite" of B6 subclasses, Bowser is working on one. This was announced publicly some time ago. As of a few months ago, the boiler was done and the tooling was turning towards the details. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:18:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Interesting Detail Lists, I recently acquired several vintage photographs which I assume was taken by the PRR or the builder of this particular building. The building, The Pennsylvania Railroads Freight Terminal in Pittsburgh is the main subject in the photos. The photos are dated 12-27-29. I would guess these photos were taken of the newly completed terminal? But anyway, what caught my eye is something else other than the buildings and platforms. On the right hand side of the photo looking slightly down river (the Allegheney River) one can see the double deck Ft Wayne Bridge. No big deal but there, as plane as day, are 2 of the largest Keystones I have ever seen. Never before had I seen a photo of this bridge showing any Keystones. They appear to be about 20 feet tall. I have included 2 photos below. The first is a photo of the photo. (Scanner isn't working) The second is a closeup of the Ft Wayne Bridge showing the Keystones, one on each side. A little blurry but, you get the idea. http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000655.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000654.jpg Is there any other photos that show this feature on the bridge? Wonder what ever happened to them. Anyone want to do some scuba work?.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 15:03:54 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Question on Consumers perspective. Patrick sez: >Just to note currently prices in the UK are approximately in sterling: > >Athearn 5.00 >Bowser 10.00 >Branchline 15.00 > >Athearn locos from 28 >P2K from 50 Right now the pound is about $1.58, so that gives you some idea of the relative cost. BTW, a nice site to convert currency is http://www.x-rates.com/ so that you can see it in dollars The dollar is at a fairly weak point against the pound right now...good for Patrick, but I'm going to wait before picking up a DJH 2-8-0 kit http://www.djhmodelloco.co.uk/acatalog/DJH_Model_Locomotive_American_HO_Scale_Ki ts__76.html to model a US export steamer headed overseas. Not too typical for a PRR modeler in the US to have to watch the exchange rates for the best deal is it?!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Phil Paskos" Subject: [PRR] Attachments/pictures(off topic) Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:02:53 -0500 I have a suggestion. I know some members know about this, but some may not. I also know that following these suggestions is extra work for those that do it. If you are looking for pictures or even Photo/ text files, and you want to print them on a quality printer you want and need as big a file as you can handle with a lot of (DPI) Dots per inch. If you want to send that picture via e-mail or on a web page, you'll get excellent results by sending them in 72DPI and a file size (use the JPG format) of no more than 50 K. They'll look great on the screen and take much less time to download. I know this may mean saving the picture in 2 files on your computer and not all the software that everyone has easily supports doing this. I use Corel Photo Paint, but it's not the only game in town that gives you this kind of control. Thanks to all who responded to my plea for help in figuring out Locomotive Assignment symbols and for finding where all the Locomotives were assigned. Phil ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 17:31:54 -0500 I wonder if they can get the sound equipment small enough for the B6? I still think a couple I1sa double heading around my layout with sound would be really cool, with maybe a J1a going opposite on my other track. I can dream! I am surprised that someone hasn't done a J1a with a C&O T1 at the same time. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 16:52:30 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI >I wonder if they can get the sound equipment small enough for the B6? I >still think a couple I1sa double heading around my layout with sound would >be really cool, with maybe a J1a going opposite on my other track. I can >dream! I am surprised that someone hasn't done a J1a with a C&O T1 at the >same time. >Eric I think that they all want a B6 so that they can then bitch about how it won't pull squat! You can get the sound in there, but don't expect the volume of the NYC J. I'm voting for the I1 (like you), the L1 (since there were more of these in the Philly Division in 1944 than any other steamer) and the H9, since that it what the PRR used for yard power and locals in many, many places...and it outnumbers the H6sb, H8 and H10 something like 15 or 30 to 1 in the Philly Division! Besides, I already have an H6sb...Railworks . The J1 would be just about useless for me (not that I wouldn't buy one, just to have it!) since I doubt too many ran east of Enola in 1944! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: [PRR] A thank you to the military...1,454,505 to date..... Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 23:19:30 +0000 Subject: MILITARY THANKS Subject: DOD thank you card Military Thanks! If you are so inclined, visit the Department of Defense web page below and sign a brief message thanking the men and women of the U.S. military services for defending our freedom. The compiled list of names will be sent out to our soldiers at the end of the month. So far, there are only about 1,261,557 names. What a shame. National Military Appreciation Month http://www.defendamerica.mil/nmam.html takes 10 seconds...literally (please pass it on to your email friends) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Interesting Detail Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 18:28:33 -0500 Gary: If you want to make really good, sharp, crisp edged close-ups with your digital camera, get a cheap set of proxar lenses. These are sold in sets of three (usually) of diopter powers +1, +2 and +4 and are designed to screw onto your camera lens. Each lens is made with a male screw thread to fit standard 35mm cameras on one side and a mating female thread on the other. I picked up a set of three lenses with an odd screw thread diameter, 48mm, in a red velvet lined leather case at a flea market for 25 cents. It is next to impossible to get a reasonably priced set of these lenses made to fit a digital camera. When you take a close up picture with the digital camera, just hold the proxar lens in front of your camera lens with your other (left?) hand while tripping the shutter with the right. The correct orientation of the proxar lens is to have threaded side against the camera, with the lens centered as much as possile. This reduces distortion even though you will get acceptable results any way. If I am doing a lot of close up photography with my digital, I lightly rubber cement the outside ring of my camera lens with rubber cement for paper and when it is tacky, press the proxar lens onto it. Then you don't have to hold it in place. The rubber cement comes right off and cleans up with just a little rubbing when you take the lens off. I use the +1 for most scenes, with the +2 for real closeups of scenes. Occasionally, I use +4 to document specific details on a model. You can screw the lenses together to make +3, +5, +6 and +7. +7 will give you the details of a gnats eye! Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: ; Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 3:18 PM Subject: [PRR] Interesting Detail > Lists, > > I recently acquired several vintage photographs which I assume was > taken by the PRR or the builder of this particular building. The > building, The Pennsylvania Railroads Freight Terminal in Pittsburgh is > the main subject in the photos. The photos are dated 12-27-29. I would > guess these photos were taken of the newly completed terminal? But > anyway, what caught my eye is something else other than the buildings > and platforms. On the right hand side of the photo looking slightly down > river (the Allegheney River) one can see the double deck Ft Wayne > Bridge. No big deal but there, as plane as day, are 2 of the largest > Keystones I have ever seen. Never before had I seen a photo of this > bridge showing any Keystones. They appear to be about 20 feet tall. I > have included 2 photos below. The first is a photo of the photo. > (Scanner isn't working) The second is a closeup of the Ft Wayne Bridge > showing the Keystones, one on each side. A little blurry but, you get > the idea. > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000655.jpg > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000654.jpg > > Is there any other photos that show this feature on the bridge? Wonder > what ever happened to them. Anyone want to do some scuba work?.....Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 18:48:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI In a message dated 11/18/02 2:58:40 PM Central Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << While it will be a kit, and likely a "composite" of B6 subclasses, Bowser is working on one. This was announced publicly some time ago. As of a few months ago, the boiler was done and the tooling was turning towards the details. >> I can live with a lot of the Bowser quirks, but they could improve things immensely by coming into the 21st Century and making the locos DCC friendly. However, the plus of a Bowser B6 is that it would probably pull more cars than the prototype, if that is important to you. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 18:54:32 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI In a message dated 11/18/02 5:00:15 PM Central Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << The J1 would be just about useless for me (not that I wouldn't buy one, just to have it!) since I doubt too many ran east of Enola in 1944! >> OTOH, the only GG1 that made it to Illinois is the one in the museum at Union :-). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:26:55 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] 1944 MP229 is online --part1_171.1748d56a.2b0afb6f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phil: The article was in the Keystone Vol. 5 No. 1 March 1972. The correct lettering and what the letters mean depends on the time frame you are modeling. Generally, the left letters are the region and the Division. The right letters are the Engine house. The Central Region used three sets of letters -- the left the region and grand division, the right the division over the engine house E.g.. CN BUF EZ Central Region, Northern Division, Buffalo Division, Ebenezer Engine House all references are facing the front of the locomotive The engine house indicates where the monthly inspections and boiler washes were to be done. EE = Eastern Region Eastern Pennsylvania Division EE ETE = East Trenton Eng. House Phila Division EE WM = West Morrisville Eng. House Phila Division EE WPS = old 46th St. Phila Eng. House Phila Division EE WE = 46th St. Phila Eng House Phila Division EE WPH = West Phila 31st Eng House Phila Division EE LR = Lancaster Eng. House Phila Division EE HEH1= Harrisburg No 1. Eng. House (old) Phila. Div. EE HEH2= Harrisburg No 2 Eng House (old) Phila. Div EE HBG = Harrisburg Eng. house Phila Div EE EEH = Enola Eng. House Phila Div. EE EA = East Altoona Eng. House Middle Div. In March1951 after the grand division were abolished new symbols for the region and division were adopted and in April 1956 new symbols were adopted for the new system of nine regions. If you have specific symbols you need or need check, e-mail me directly. Rich Orr --part1_171.1748d56a.2b0afb6f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phil:

The article was in the Keystone Vol. 5 No. 1 March 1972.

The correct lettering and what the letters mean depends on the time frame you are modeling.  Generally, the left letters are the region and the Division.  The right letters are the Engine house.  The Central Region used three sets of letters -- the left the region and grand division, the right the division over the engine house

E.g..

CN             BUF
                   EZ

Central Region, Northern Division, Buffalo Division, Ebenezer Engine House

all references are facing the front of the locomotive
The engine house indicates where the monthly inspections and boiler washes were to be done.

EE = Eastern Region Eastern Pennsylvania Division

EE        ETE = East Trenton Eng. House Phila Division
EE        WM = West Morrisville Eng. House Phila Division
EE        WPS = old 46th St. Phila Eng. House Phila Division
EE        WE = 46th St. Phila Eng House Phila Division
EE        WPH = West Phila 31st Eng House Phila Division
EE        LR = Lancaster Eng. House Phila Division
EE        HEH1= Harrisburg No 1. Eng. House (old) Phila. Div.
EE        HEH2= Harrisburg No 2 Eng House (old) Phila. Div
EE        HBG = Harrisburg Eng. house Phila Div
EE        EEH = Enola Eng. House Phila Div.
EE        EA = East Altoona Eng. House Middle Div.

In March1951 after the grand division were abolished new symbols for the region and division were adopted and in April 1956 new symbols were adopted for the new system of nine regions.

If you have specific symbols you need or need check, e-mail me directly.

Rich Orr --part1_171.1748d56a.2b0afb6f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:48:34 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C28F4C.3E58F920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob: There was two GG-1's that made it to the Windy City. One is at the museum= in Union. The other was sent to the 1949 Railroad Fair in Chicago. I wo= nder if there were any photos of this G' when it was in transit, west of = Harrisburg? Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: Bobspf@aol.com Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 7:02 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI =20 In a message dated 11/18/02 5:00:15 PM Central Standard Time, =20 smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << The J1 would be just about useless for me (not that I wouldn't buy one, just to have it!) since I doubt too many ran east of Enola in 1944! >> OTOH, the only GG1 that made it to Illinois is the one in the museum at U= nion =20 :-). =20 Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C28F4C.3E58F920 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob:
 
There was two GG-1's that made it to the Windy City.&= nbsp;One is at the museum in Union. The other was sent to the&n= bsp;1949 Railroad Fair in Chicago.  I wonder if there were any photo= s of this G' when it was in transit, west of Harrisburg?
=
 
Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana
=   
 
----- Original Messa= ge -----
From: Bobspf@aol.com
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI
 <= /DIV>In a message dated 11/18/02 5:00:15 PM Central Standard Time,
sm= ithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes:

<< The J1
would be just abo= ut useless for me (not that I wouldn't buy one, just to
have it!) sinc= e I doubt too many ran east of Enola in 1944! >>

OTOH, the o= nly GG1 that made it to Illinois is the one in the museum at Union
:-= ). 

Bob Zoeller

-------------------------------------= ----------------------------------
For assistance with this list, plea= se visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C28F4C.3E58F920-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:53:34 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C28F4C.F0D6F160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob and the List: I stand corrected. It was not 1949 but rather July 20, 1948. The GG-1 tha= t was sent out to the Chicago Railroad Fair was No. 4912. Ted =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: Bobspf@aol.com Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 7:02 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI =20 In a message dated 11/18/02 5:00:15 PM Central Standard Time, =20 smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << The J1 would be just about useless for me (not that I wouldn't buy one, just to have it!) since I doubt too many ran east of Enola in 1944! >> OTOH, the only GG1 that made it to Illinois is the one in the museum at U= nion =20 :-). =20 Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C28F4C.F0D6F160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob and the Li= st:
 
I stand corrected. It was not 1949 but r= ather July 20, 1948. The GG-1 that was sent out to the Chicago Railr= oad Fair was No. 4912.
 
Ted 
=
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Bobspf@aol.com
Sent: Mond= ay, November 18, 2002 7:02 PM
To= : PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject:= Re: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI
 
In a message d= ated 11/18/02 5:00:15 PM Central Standard Time,
smithbf@mail.auburn.e= du writes:

<< The J1
would be just about useless for me (= not that I wouldn't buy one, just to
have it!) since I doubt too many = ran east of Enola in 1944! >>

OTOH, the only GG1 that made i= t to Illinois is the one in the museum at Union
:-). 

Bo= b Zoeller

--------------------------------------------------------= ---------------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lis= ts.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C28F4C.F0D6F160-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:05:09 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: H6sb Bowser has been working on this engine and I expect it to be out shortly. I heard the tooling for the boiler and tender are completed. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of PennsyNut Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 1:12 PM To: Doug Kisala; ealauterbach@earthlink.net; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: H6sb I totally agree! My favorite engine of all time! There were not enough Lamberts imported. And the price has gone too high for those available. So if BLI would come out with the PRR H6/H6a/H6b/H6sb/B&O E24a, I think that would be great. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Kisala" To: ; Sent: Monday, 18 November, 2002 12:46 AMSubject: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI> Eric, list, > My suggestion for BLI would be an H6sb with the air tank on the pilot deck and power reverse (1940s-50s).> > PRR, LIRR, PRSL, and B&O modelers (not to mention several short lines)can all use this engine (there are substantial detail differences for the B&O E-24a version, but the basic boiler and chassis remain). > > There were about 540 H6sb over the years and 30 E-24a> (about 200 H6, 1200 H6a, 600 H6b, and just shy of 200> E-24s were built altogether). While most PRR H6sb> were gone by 1950, two (2846 and 3110) lingered until > 1955 and the last B&O E-24a were retired in 1956 (the> derived L1 0-8-0 lasted until the end of B&O steam in> 1958).> > As a small engine (for the 40s and 50s), the H6sb fit> just about everywhere.> Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 19:07:29 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Main Line in Jersey City Hi John, >This raises a question or two in my mind. Presumably the line >through western Jersey City underwent major reconstruction at the >time of the H&M construction and the opening of Penn Station; do >both the Hackensack River drawbridges date from this era? As I have studied the area for research for my home layout, I will try to answer as best I can, altho I am far from an expert, and there are still many unanswered questions in my own head! In all probability, I will likely introduce yet MORE questions and ambiguities in my reply! My knowlege is mostly centered on the route from Manhattan Transfer (present-day Hudson tower) to the Bergen Hill tunnel portals - an area distinct from, yet intertwined with, the Jersey City line you asked about. First, I'll comment on the Penn Station line, and will comment on the Jersey City line further down. Some of the Penn Station line is well covered by a series of maps done by the Army in the 1930's to document maritime facilities - this is the "Port Map" series people occasionally speak of. It is also possible to railfan and view this entire area, as it is mostly still accessible via service roads, and in some cases via nearby parking lots and/or abandoned industrial property. Also, the views out the front window from the front car on PATH are still excellent, with PATH covering a short portion only. As to the Penn Station construction, an entirely new double-track line left the original Jersey City main at a point about 1 or 2 miles east of Manhattan Transfer. I believe this spot is known as Kearny Junction - I'm doing this from memory now and so I might be mistaken on the name. It is also the location of "Substation 3", one of the substations built to provide the required DC power for the third rail (substation 3 is still standing). In any case, this was and still is the area of the "flying junction" between the Penn Station line and the line to Jersey City, and is still in service today, altho slightly altered present day to accomodate a connection built with the former Lackawanna allowing trains on the ex-Lackawanna line direct access to Penn Station. The Penn Station line, built on fill which was brought up by the tunnel construction and was known as the "High Line" then ran thru the meadows (swamps, really) to the tunnel portals at Bergen Hill. This entire line, when constructed, was done under the ownership of the Pennsylvania Tunnel and Terminal Company (PT&T), presumably a holding company set up by PRR, and line is refered to as such on the Army's Port maps. Some distance east from Kearny Junction, maybe 2 miles or so, is the Hackensack swing bridge (note, SWING bridge, this is not one of the two above-referenced lift bridges), which was built as part of the Penn Station project. There are two sets of power line towers there - the originals (for DC electrifications, unused today but standing) and the later ones added for the AC catenary electrification (added later, still in use). Much of the above is documented in the book "Penn Station: It's Tunnels and Side-rodders" by Westing. for those interested in this area, this title is a "must-have". Used copies are not that much money. >What >was there originally, when all PRR trains ran to Jersey City? Well, I dunno, but read further... >And >after the rebuild, how did the remaining PRR trains serving Jersey >City operate (e.g. the Broker, running into the 1950s?) We see >those memorable shots of the Broker along Raritan Bay in the last >years, but how did the train run through Jersey City? Did these >trains run on the H&M tracks, on the high-level Hackensack River >bridge; or did they take the low-level bridge currently used by >CSX/NS freights, leading (today, anyway) to the yards? The PRR trains serving Jersey City (Exchange Place) all ran on what you refered to as the "H&M" tracks. In fact, these were NOT H&M tracks, they were PRR tracks, built and signaled to PRR standards, and this section was refered to as the "Joint Service District" - joint because both PRR and H&M trains used this line. And as an aside, H&M motormen who worked this section of the H&M were required to be PRR-qualified for exactly this reason - they were on PRR tracks at that point! When riding PATH today on this line, from the front car, you can still see the overhead catenary supports, and, in places, the overhead catenary wire is still hanging there, unpowered and sagging because it is not held in tension anymore. The bridge used was/is the bridge still used today by PATH. I believe you would have called this the "high-level" bridge. You are correct that there is a shortage of photos showing this section of the Broker's run. However, there is at least one published photo in a book I have (sorry, title escapes me just this moment, altho author might have been Kramer) which shows a K4 and passenger cars, possibly the Broker, in the cut near Journal Square. The photo shows third rail is installed on some(?) of the tracks for H&M use. >With apologies to Lines West fans for raising yet another Big Red >Subway topic. Big Red Subway is right! Most cars on the H&M system were painted black. But, the H&M cars on the Manhattan Transfer/Newark route were painted RED for a reason! I hope this wasn't too far afield, and that this answers your questions to at least some extent. As you can tell, this is an area of great interest to me, so if you have any further questions or comments or amplifications, I'm all ears! - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 22:12:00 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI I would definitely like to see a manufacturer produce a PRR J class in plastic or Bowser. This locomotive will also be marketable to C&O fans as well. One can only imagine the drawbar pull of a Bowser J. I did hear people say Bowser has considered it. Who knows, with all the steam engines being marketed over the past 5 years, I do like what I see. Honestly, P2K really needs to work on pulling power. The B28 is hideous, but has nice detail. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Eric Lauterbach Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 5:32 PM To: prr-talk Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI I wonder if they can get the sound equipment small enough for the B6? I still think a couple I1sa double heading around my layout with sound would be really cool, with maybe a J1a going opposite on my other track. I can dream! I am surprised that someone hasn't done a J1a with a C&O T1 at the same time. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Les Zody" Subject: [PRR] any prr in seattle ? Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 20:13:08 -0800 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C28F3E.E906B370 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi list, Not into a group,or should I say starting a group but it would be gre= at to find someone with an interest in the prr in the Seattle area? Can E-mail off line . Zodyfamily@msn.com Hope t= o hear from you Les Z ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C28F3E.E906B370 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi list,
=
    Not into a group,or should I say starting a grou= p but it would be great to find someone with an interest in the prr in th= e Seattle area?
Can E-mail off line .     = Zodyfamily@msn.com
&= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;            =       Hope to hear from you    Le= s Z

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C28F3E.E906B370-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2002 21:28:11 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] War Department 2-8-0's and the PRR I followed the link to the DJH American HO 2-8-0. Spiffy, and it started a home movie playing inside my head. In the days of my youth during WW2 (the Big One), while I still lived on Railroad Street in Latrobe, a couple trains of such 2-8-0's passed by on their way eastward. They were on their own wheels, and as I recall, coupled with their "native" European-style buffers and links. At each end of the train was a flat car, which I assume was being used as a coupler adapter car. I've often wondered about that, but take refuge in the thought that many curious things were done in aid of the war effort which in normal times would have been strictly forbidden. Each (I'm pretty sure I saw just two) was a train by itself, that is, no other cars save for the flat cars and a caboose. At the time I guessed they were coming from Lima, OH, as I didn't and still don't know of any locomotive works west of Latrobe other than Porter, who I don't think ever built anything of that size. However, at 190+ UK pounds a pop, I think I will refrain from modelling a train of 20 or so. Related recollections: Some time shortly after the war, at least one train of similar steam locomotives went east on flat cars. Those, I was told, were on their way to Russia and were built to the Russian 5-foot gauge. The tenders were, I believe lettered "UNRRA" which I think stood for "United Nations Relief and Reconstruction Administration". Less remarkable were several shipments of kits for European-style 4-wheel box cars. When the war ended, several car loads of such kits ended up on a siding on the west side of Latrobe. They stayed there for a long time, a few years as I recall, then one day they went away. I have heard folk-lore to the effect that somebody in the late 1950's discovered a warehose full of WW2-vintage motorcycle parts. In his efforts to buy the parts, he discovered that the Defense Department had completly lost track of them. Given that, losing a few car loads of box car kits would not be surprising. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Phil Paskos" Subject: Re: [PRR] 1944 MP229 is online Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 00:59:12 -0500 This is a great list! Thanks to Rich and Greg for also responding to my query on assignments. Phil (Much snipped) > If you have specific symbols you need or need check, e-mail me directly. > > Rich Orr > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] War Department 2-8-0's and the PRR Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:47:33 -0000 Just for information some of the Russian 2-10-0's built during the war ended up in Finland when relations with Russia broke down, they were known as "Trumans". Patrick Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 5:28 AM Subject: [PRR] War Department 2-8-0's and the PRR > I followed the link to the DJH American HO 2-8-0. Spiffy, and it > started a home movie playing inside my head. > > In the days of my youth during WW2 (the Big One), while I still lived > on Railroad Street in Latrobe, a couple trains of such 2-8-0's passed > by on their way eastward. They were on their own wheels, and as I > recall, coupled with their "native" European-style buffers and links. > At each end of the train was a flat car, which I assume was being > used as a coupler adapter car. > > I've often wondered about that, but take refuge in the thought that > many curious things were done in aid of the war effort which in > normal times would have been strictly forbidden. > > Each (I'm pretty sure I saw just two) was a train by itself, that is, > no other cars save for the flat cars and a caboose. At the time I > guessed they were coming from Lima, OH, as I didn't and still don't > know of any locomotive works west of Latrobe other than Porter, who I > don't think ever built anything of that size. > > However, at 190+ UK pounds a pop, I think I will refrain from > modelling a train of 20 or so. > > Related recollections: > > Some time shortly after the war, at least one train of similar steam > locomotives went east on flat cars. Those, I was told, were on their > way to Russia and were built to the Russian 5-foot gauge. The tenders > were, I believe lettered "UNRRA" which I think stood for "United > Nations Relief and Reconstruction Administration". > > Less remarkable were several shipments of kits for European-style > 4-wheel box cars. When the war ended, several car loads of such kits > ended up on a siding on the west side of Latrobe. They stayed there > for a long time, a few years as I recall, then one day they went > away. > > I have heard folk-lore to the effect that somebody in the late 1950's > discovered a warehose full of WW2-vintage motorcycle parts. In his > efforts to buy the parts, he discovered that the Defense Department > had completly lost track of them. Given that, losing a few car loads > of box car kits would not be surprising. > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site > http://webhosting.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 07:55:32 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI Of course Delmarva never had either a GG1 or a J1 or even an M1.... I voted for an L1s (in the survey) as the predominant steam freight power down this way. Jim McDaniel, here in Delmarva with no mountains, no hills and not many curves ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:08:04 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] War Department 2-8-0's and the PRR For those who are interested, the US Army Transportation Corps Museum at Fort Eustis, VA (near Newport News of I-64 and the old C&O mainline) has one of these 2-8-0s on display along with some other RR stuff they have collected. It's a nice small museum that is great for 13 year old boys and their dads (voice of experience) see: http://www.eustis.army.mil/dptmsec/museum.htm Jim McDaniel, in Delmarva on the other side of the big bridge ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Laird" Subject: Re: [PRR] War Department 2-8-0's and the PRR Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:24:56 -0600 Robert Netzlof wrote on Nov. 18, 2002, in part: > Each (I'm pretty sure I saw just two) was a train by itself, that is, > no other cars save for the flat cars and a caboose. At the time I > guessed they were coming from Lima, OH, as I didn't and still don't > know of any locomotive works west of Latrobe other than Porter, who I > don't think ever built anything of that size. > According to the 13th edition of the Porter Steam Locomotives, Light & Heavy Catalog, republished by A.C Kalmbach Memorial Library, page 75, Porter did offer a 2-8-0 "Consolidation". The photograph caption states the one shown was 36" gauge. There is a footnote that states "We are prepared to build additional sizes for coal, wood or oil fuel". A quick review of the locomotive roster in the back of the catalog shows a handful built in 36" gauge and at least one built in standard gauge and delivered in Pennsylvania in 1923 to the Monongahela Railway as locomotive #123. Bill Laird Canyon Lake, Texas ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:14:12 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Who Among You... From: Jerry Britton List... I'm pleased to make mention that all of this talk about PRR steam locomotives has caught the attention of a well known manufacturer. This manufacturer has asked me to put them in touch with a small panel of PRR steam locomotive experts with whom they can consult. I am going to start by involving Gary Mittner and Bruce Smith, if they agree. Gary has a huge library of photos and seems to know PRR steam pretty well. While Bruce's specialty is electrics, he knows steam fairly well but, more importantly, really pays attention to detail. Other than them, I need to ask "who among you really knows PRR steam?" Please DO NOT nominate yourself! I want to get a feel for who you think, among your peers on the list, really seems to know their stuff. This isn't necessarily a confidentiality issue as much as it is that a manufacturer needs to work with a small group to get anything done. Having public discussions will not be productive. Please contact me with your nominations. I plan to give the manufacturer five names, of whom I've already filled two. Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Laird" Subject: Re: [PRR] War Department 2-8-0's and the PRR Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 06:39:13 -0600 Robert Netzlof wrote on Nov. 18, 2002, in part: > Some time shortly after the war, at least one train of similar steam > locomotives went east on flat cars. Those, I was told, were on their > way to Russia and were built to the Russian 5-foot gauge. The tenders > were, I believe lettered "UNRRA" which I think stood for "United > Nations Relief and Reconstruction Administration". > The 13th edition Porter Locomotive catalog locomotive roster lists thirty-three 0-8-0 in 30" gauge delivered between Sept. 1945 and April 1946 and lettered for the UNRRA, which according to the catalog stood for "United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration". There are also sixteen 0-8-0 locomotives in 29 1/2" gauge listed for delivery to the U.S.S.R. in late 1944 and early 1945. There are many other locomotives of all sizes listed as constructed during the war for the U.S. Army in various gauges for delivery to a variety of European countries. PRR content? Many of these must have been transported via the PRR to eastern seaports for embarkation. Bill Laird Canyon Lake, Texas ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 09:04:42 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Paul Backenstose From: Jerry Britton Paul: Please contact me off-list. Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 09:19:36 EST Subject: [PRR] Philip R. Hastings: Portrait of the Pennsylvania Railroad For those who have this book, any evaluations? I believe Hastings was one of the pioneers to get away from the 3/4 angle, rods-down views. To narrow the focus, (1) are the selected shots of his more progressive approach? (2) Do they include more than the locomotives (3) Are they mostly previously unpublished? (4) Much content West of Pittsburgh? (5) Predominant era? Sorry for the laundry list of questions. Narrowing the shopping list for Mrs. Santa Claus. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 09:39:34 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Philip R. Hastings: Portrait of the Pennsylvania In a message dated 11/19/02 8:31:32 AM Central Standard Time, I wrote: << 5) Predominant era? >> No need to answer. The book publicity states the 50's. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Phil Paskos" Subject: [PRR] M1a reassignment Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 09:36:18 -0500 With all the help I've gotten from the list I'm now assigning M1a 6715 to the Eastern Pennsylvania Division and the West Phila. 31st Enginehouse. EE WPH. By the way, I have another question for the group. Alvin Staufer in his book Pennsy Power refers to the Buffalo Boxcar in the section on the M's. What is he referring to? Phil ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 08:45:11 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] War Department 2-8-0's and the PRR Bob sez: >I followed the link to the DJH American HO 2-8-0. Spiffy, and it >started a home movie playing inside my head. > >In the days of my youth during WW2 (the Big One), while I still lived >on Railroad Street in Latrobe, a couple trains of such 2-8-0's passed >by on their way eastward. They were on their own wheels, and as I >recall, coupled with their "native" European-style buffers and links. >At each end of the train was a flat car, which I assume was being >used as a coupler adapter car. This was almost certainly true. In later years the same technique was used to deliver trains of subway cars. >However, at 190+ UK pounds a pop, I think I will refrain from >modelling a train of 20 or so. Uh, yeah (OUCH!)...I was definitley thinking either a flat car load, or a single loco, with US couplers, dead in tow. I wonder if they charge less for not including the motor ? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 09:50:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Philip R. Hastings: Portrait of the From: Jerry Britton On 11/19/02 9:19 AM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: > For those who have this book, any evaluations? I believe Hastings was one > of the pioneers to get away from the 3/4 angle, rods-down views. To narrow > the focus, (1) are the selected shots of his more progressive approach? (2) > Do they include more than the locomotives (3) Are they mostly previously > unpublished? (4) Much content West of Pittsburgh? (5) Predominant era? > > Sorry for the laundry list of questions. Narrowing the shopping list for > Mrs. Santa Claus. > My opinion is obviously biased, as I sell this book. I made some initial comments last Friday, upon receiving my supply. Personally, as a modeler of 1954, this book blew me away. It leaves me wanting to see the other 650 shots that weren't included in the book! The Rau book of last year was proclaimed for its wide-angle shots from the 1890's. Hastings might as well be Rau reincarnated into the 1950's. Some of the shots are just plain "spectacular". There are at least four that I am going to order reprints of for decorating my train room! The shots do indeed contain more than just the locomotive, though there are a couple of stand-outs that are just the locomotive. Most are previously unpublished, though there are some that were featured in the landmark April 1957 article in "Trains" magazine. Little content, if any, from west of Pittsburgh. Most is Altoona area, a decent amount around Enola, and a good bit from the Elmira Branch. Era is 1950's. Production quality of the book is first rate. Paper selection is excellent and the photos are done as duotones, which makes them "pop out" at the reader. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:27:31 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Philip R. Hastings: Portrait of the Pennsylvania Greetings to Bob and the List: Don't have a copy yet, but I saw preproduction proofs of the book and can answer some of your questions. 1. Yes, almost all of the shots reflect the photojournalism approach rather than the "official record" approach. There are some night views, for example, including one or more views at AR Tower. 2. Almost implicit in the answer given above, yes, they include more than locomotives. Most show the trains and engines in geographic context a la Victor Hand. 3. Almost all are previously unpublished. 4. Some content west of Pittsburgh (some at Columbus, some on the PFtW&C), but not much. Hastings photographed PRR on three kinds of occasions, which shaped his choices of locations: when he was traveling, when he was on assignment for TRAINS magazine, and when he was stationed at bases during his military hitch. As one might expect, the book contains coverage of Harrisburg/Enola/Rockville; Altoona/Gallitzin/H&P Secondary; Pittsburgh/South Side/Wilkinsburg; Maryland; Camden/PRSL; and perhaps most different from the standard east-west geographical fare served up in most PRR books, a chapter on the Northern Region: Shamokin ore trains/I1s, Renovo yard/shops, Olean/freight-converted Alco PA helpers, Sodus Point, etc. Hope this helps. Dan Cupper Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > > For those who have this book, any evaluations? I believe Hastings was one > of the pioneers to get away from the 3/4 angle, rods-down views. To narrow > the focus, (1) are the selected shots of his more progressive approach? (2) > Do they include more than the locomotives (3) Are they mostly previously > unpublished? (4) Much content West of Pittsburgh? (5) Predominant era? > > Sorry for the laundry list of questions. Narrowing the shopping list for > Mrs. Santa Claus. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 10:55:36 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Collapsed ramp kills rail worker From: Jerry Britton >From the Harrisburg Patriot News today... Collapsed ramp kills rail worker Tuesday, November 19, 2002 >From staff and wire reports A Blair County man was killed in East Pennsboro Twp. yesterday when the hydraulic ramp on which he was working collapsed on him, officials said. Dennis Sellers, 49, of Hollidaysburg, died of chest injuries shortly before noon yesterday in the Norfolk Southern railroad yards, said Cumberland County Coroner Mike Norris. Norfolk Southern spokesman Rudy Husband said that Sellers, a railroad employee, was working on a hydraulic ramp, which weighed nearly 4,000 pounds, when it collapsed on him. The accident happened in an outdoor area several hundred yards away from the building where most railroad car maintenance is done, Husband said. Although he wouldn't say what kind of work Sellers was doing, he said officials were investigating whether he had followed safety procedures. No autopsy was planned on Sellers, Norris said, adding that his investigation into the death is continuing. He declined to release any more details about the death. The railroad car maintenance shop where Sellers worked has an excellent safety record, Husband said. He said the shop continued its operations yesterday after Sellers was killed. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:03:03 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Philip R. Hastings: Portrait of the Pennsylvania In my opinion it is one of the best PRR picture books to come down the line in a long time. This book is not only an excellent photograph source of the PRR in action but the myriad of details, architecture, and landscape found along the right-of-way, beyond the trains themselves, also makes it a reference guide for the serious PRR modeler. I will be reviewing it for the PRRT&HS and will give it outstanding grades. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 11:32:09 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Main Line in Jersey City Claus answered quite a few of my questions! So it would seem that the Jersey City trains operating after Penn Station and the High Line were built operated by what are today the PATH tracks. Track configurations have no doubt changed since through passenger service ended; and may have been different before and after Manhattan Transfer was elminated with the AC electrification. But where did the PRR trains enter and leave the joint service tracks? Would this have been west of Journal Square? What track did the Broker etc run on through the Journal Square area -- certainly not on the H&M platform tracks, I think. At the western end, there would have been crossovers in the area of Hudson/Manhattan Transfer, of course. I don't have much in the way of references for this era, but I do have the January 1930 Official Guide reprint (sadly, falling apart year by year unfortunately). The "Broker" was not identified as such, but it was the only NY&LB train to Jersey City. But there were loads of locals, notably South Amboy trains, and a handful of main line locals too, operating out of Jersey City. Interestingly, none of these trains stopped at Manhattan Transfer; no need, of course, since they had steam power all the way; but Penn Station passengers were instructed to "change cars at Newark." Hudson Terminal passengers, of course, were told to change at Jersey City for these trains. Some of the locals (but not the Broker!) stopped at Marion, west of Journal Square; I imagine this is in the area of Marion Junction, where the interchange line to the north departed. (Today, Conrail has reconfigured the whole area with a new connection.) I can remember a grade crossing in the area, roughly where a pedestrian overpass exists today as a replacement. This again raises the issue of just which tracks these trains used through the area, how they got to the passenger "joint service" tracks, and where the Marion platform may have been. Today the PATH system is scrupulously careful to isolate their tracks from mainline tracks, no doubt to avoid the need to comply with mainline railroad safety rules -- quite a change from the joint service days! John Bobsin Basking Ridge, NJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Paul Backenstose Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:13:43 -0500 Paul, Didn't know you were on the list. Congrats on getting 2 layout photos published in the Walther's catalog. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal Marshalling Yards Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 13:25:43 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 15 Oct, Jerry Britton wrote: > You often read of "coal marshalling yards" in layout descriptions of the > Virginian, N&W, etc. These are yards at the confluence of branches where > short trains of coal are staged into longer trains for transport to the > cities. Jerry, sorry for the month-late reply, but I've been researching the Wilkes-Barre branch with an eye toward modelling it, and I have come to the conclusion that the Honey Pot yard's sole job was marshalling coal from the adjacent Glen Lyon and West Nanticoke branches (Susquehanna Breaker #6 and Colliery #7, respectively); CT1000e (thanks very much!) says that there's a scale there, and the oddball yard layout (from the 1962 track chart, thanks very much!) looks like it's dedicated to weighing and sorting hoppers (although I have several conflicting theories about which way they went through the scale(?) bottleneck). Arranged Freight shows no trains originating or terminating there; all non-local non-mineral trains are to/from Buttonwood and W-B connecting. The 1962 chart doesn't show Colliery #7 on the W.Nanticoke Branch (the 1945 CT1000e notes its existence), so I must suppose that it was closed by then. The gradient part of the chart extends well beyond the track shown, and the CT1000e gives mileage to the colliery, so we can deduce where it was, but not the track arrangement. Is there an online track chart of the W-B branch from 1954 or before? Are there track charts on CD-ROM #4? For your own research, I'd suggest that you look for scales in the CT1000 where non-mineral freights don't go, and track charts that don't look like freight classification or interchange yards. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] GP-35 question Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 14:12:24 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C28FD5.AF25EEE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" PRR-Listers: Which phase or phases of the GP-35 did the Pennsy own? TIA Ted Andrews ------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C28FD5.AF25EEE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
PRR-Listers:
 
Which phase or phases of the GP-35 did the&nb= sp;Pennsy own?
 
TIA
 
<= DIV>Ted Andrews

------=_NextPart_001_0001_01C28FD5.AF25EEE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 16:01:47 -0500 From: JRobb123@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] War Department 2-8-0's and the PRR This may be off the subject a bit but if anyone cares to spend the money for a DJH kit I am sure a very enjoyable modelling experience will be had. I have built the DJH USRA Light Pacific and Light Mikado and they are fabulous performers and of quite good detail. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 16:50:25 -0500 Judging from the reviews of the new Hudson, I would think that a plastic J1 if done right would pull just fine. Also, it looks like the market is going away from kits for engines. Plus, one with sound would be awesome. Eric > I would definitely like to see a manufacturer produce a PRR J class in > plastic or Bowser. This locomotive will also be marketable to C&O fans as > well. One can only imagine the drawbar pull of a Bowser J. I did hear > people say Bowser has considered it. Who knows, with all the steam engines > being marketed over the past 5 years, I do like what I see. > > Honestly, P2K really needs to work on pulling power. The B28 is hideous, > but has nice detail. > > Greg V > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 22:28:04 +0000 How close is the NYC J1 Engine through the drive train to a K4S? Are the cylinders and driver diameters the same or close? How hard would it be to use a Bachman K4 shell and trailing truck to make a decent K4? That could be an interesting conversion if possible. Beside you get to trash a NYC engine in the process which should make all PRR fans ecstatic. Norm Bell > Judging from the reviews of the new Hudson, I would think that a plastic J1 > if done right would pull just fine. Also, it looks like the market is going > away from kits for engines. Plus, one with sound would be awesome. > Eric > > > I would definitely like to see a manufacturer produce a PRR J class in > > plastic or Bowser. This locomotive will also be marketable to C&O fans as > > well. One can only imagine the drawbar pull of a Bowser J. I did hear > > people say Bowser has considered it. Who knows, with all the steam > engines > > being marketed over the past 5 years, I do like what I see. > > > > Honestly, P2K really needs to work on pulling power. The B28 is hideous, > > but has nice detail. > > > > Greg V > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:55:08 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C28FF4.CCBB14C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marvin and the List: You are correct regarding the GG-1 that went to the Elkhart museum. Howev= er, prior to 1968, No. 4912 may have been the only GG-1 that traveled wes= t of Altoona. =20 Ted Andrews =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: Cadwell, Marvin L Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 3:48 PM To: 'Ted Andrews'; Bobspf@aol.com; PRR Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI =20 Is not a third GG-1 in Elkhart, Ind. at a New York Central Museum? -----Original Message----- From: Ted Andrews [mailto:Ted_Andrews@msn.com] Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 8:49 PM To: Bobspf@aol.com; PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI Bob: =20 There was two GG-1's that made it to the Windy City. One is at the museum= in Union. The other was sent to the 1949 Railroad Fair in Chicago. I wo= nder if there were any photos of this G' when it was in transit, west of = Harrisburg? =20 Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: Bobspf@aol.com Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 7:02 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI =20 In a message dated 11/18/02 5:00:15 PM Central Standard Time, =20 smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << The J1 would be just about useless for me (not that I wouldn't buy one, just to have it!) since I doubt too many ran east of Enola in 1944! >> OTOH, the only GG1 that made it to Illinois is the one in the museum at U= nion =20 :-). =20 Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C28FF4.CCBB14C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Marvin and the= List:
 
You are correct regarding the GG-1&nb= sp;that went to the Elkhart museum. However, prior to 1968, No.= 4912 may have been the only GG-1 that traveled west of Al= toona.
 
Ted Andrews  
&= nbsp;
----- Original Message -----
From: Cad= well, Marvin L
Sent: Tuesday= , November 19, 2002 3:48 PM
To:<= /B> 'Ted Andrews'; Bobspf@aol.com; PRR Talk
Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI
 =
Is not a third GG-1 in Elkhart, Ind. at a N= ew York Central Museum?
-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Andrews [mailto:Ted= _Andrews@msn.com]
Sent: Monday, November 18, 2002 8:49 PM
To: Bobspf@aol.com; PRR Talk
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR subjec= ts for BLI

Bob:
 
Th= ere was two GG-1's that made it to the Windy City. One is at the mus= eum in Union. The other was sent to the 1949 Railroad Fair= in Chicago.  I wonder if there were any photos of this G' when it w= as in transit, west of Harrisburg?
 
Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana
  
 
<= DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----
From: = Bobspf@aol.com
Sent: Monday,= November 18, 2002 7:02 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI
 
In a message date= d 11/18/02 5:00:15 PM Central Standard Time,
smithbf@mail.auburn.edu = writes:

<< The J1
would be just about useless for me (not= that I wouldn't buy one, just to
have it!) since I doubt too many ran= east of Enola in 1944! >>

OTOH, the only GG1 that made it t= o Illinois is the one in the museum at Union
:-). 

Bob Z= oeller

-----------------------------------------------------------= ------------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.= dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_001_0002_01C28FF4.CCBB14C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 17:47:29 -0500 Norm, Wrong valve gear. By the time NYC got the the J1e they were using Baker valve gear. Only PRR engines with Baker valve gear were, guess what, the J1's!! K4's used Walshaerts. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 5:28 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR subjects for BLI > How close is the NYC J1 Engine through the drive train to a K4S? Are the > cylinders and driver diameters the same or close? How hard would it be to use a > Bachman K4 shell and trailing truck to make a decent K4? That could be an > interesting conversion if possible. Beside you get to trash a NYC engine in > the process which should make all PRR fans ecstatic. Norm Bell > > Judging from the reviews of the new Hudson, I would think that a plastic J1 > > if done right would pull just fine. Also, it looks like the market is going > > away from kits for engines. Plus, one with sound would be awesome. > > Eric > > > > > I would definitely like to see a manufacturer produce a PRR J class in > > > plastic or Bowser. This locomotive will also be marketable to C&O fans as > > > well. One can only imagine the drawbar pull of a Bowser J. I did hear > > > people say Bowser has considered it. Who knows, with all the steam > > engines > > > being marketed over the past 5 years, I do like what I see. > > > > > > Honestly, P2K really needs to work on pulling power. The B28 is hideous, > > > but has nice detail. > > > > > > Greg V > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:40:10 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] December MR Article >> The majority of trains (and RR profits) are in freight, rather > > than passengers. > > There are magazines dedicated to passenger service. > What magazines are dedicated to passenger service? I had not noticed the departure of PTJ. > Passenger Train Journal went kaput years ago, merged into Pacific > Rail News or something and now carries very little intercity > passenger rail news. Face it, TRAINS is it for rail-focused > publications that inform about passenger service. Its their magazine: I suggest they get to pick the business model, chose their customers, etc. - best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:48:24 -0500 From: davep Subject: Linquistics... Re: [PRR] Shifters, Switchers and such >> I believe on the island of Sodor, under the direction of Sir >> Topemhat, Any relation to The Fat Controller? (Hint: Sir TophamHat is a FICTION introduced to be Politically Correct.) >> the action of switching is refered to as shunting. As you >>may not know, the show originated in England. Shunt engines >> in the UK are switch engines in the US. ....on some RRs.... > Perhaps in that part of the US that is irrelevant, heh, heh. >But on the Standard Railroad of the World (with apologies to > the Raj) they were SHIFTERS. Sometimes. Usage of words CHANGES over time. Comparing PRR Usage from one time to that from another will reveal changes. Ferinstance: When electrics were young they were Electric Engines Over time, they were also Electric Locomotives Latterly, they were mostly Motors or Electric Motors or Electric Units EACH of these usages exists in PRR documents at one time or another... At any one time usage may be consistent. Over time, it will usually vary. Thus 'shifter', 'shunter', etc may all be apt at some specific time.... -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:03:09 EST Subject: Re: Linquistics... Re: [PRR] Shifters, Switchers and such --part1_107.1b56c7fa.2b0c2b3d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/19/2002 6:58:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, davep@quik.com writes: > Any relation to The Fat Controller? > Not to be confused with Fatty, der Prokurist? Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_107.1b56c7fa.2b0c2b3d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/19/2002 6:58:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, davep@quik.com writes:


Any relation to The Fat Controller?


Not to be confused with Fatty, der Prokurist?

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_107.1b56c7fa.2b0c2b3d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:19:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] GP-35 question Ted PRR's GP35 carbody was the "1a" phase. No "hump" roof line between cab and exhaust stack. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 19:45:42 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] GP-35 question On Tue, 19 Nov 2002 zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > PRR's GP35 carbody was the "1a" phase. Actually, not all the PRR units had the same body style. Take a look at http://users.inna.net/~jaydeet/gp35.htm The phases don't correspond with Kato's phasing, but they're still not all the same, as detailed at the bottom and verified by photographic evidence. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: [PRR] RTR vs Kits Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:58:37 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0098_01C28FFD.AAE49480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! I'd like to ask: Bowser advertises both kits and RTR versions of their = locos. How many of you purchase the RTR? So, if all the discussions relating to "what sells and what doesn't = sell" are to mean anything, don't we have to take that into = consideration? I want to see a good kit or RTR version of the PRR H6, H6b, H6sb, etc.; = with air tank mounted on the pilot beam and without, etc. In other = words, the hobby needs a good H6. The only ones I've ever known of are = brass, and beyond economic feasibility. And at this point, with the way = the hobby is going, and plastic locos with sound above $200, well - I = guess we have to live with it. So, whether some manufacturer brings out = a H6, a H9, or a L1 really doesn't matter a lot. What does matter is = how well the first one sells. And if the first one sells, then more = will follow. Having said that - we already have "inexpensive" H9 and = L1, but NOT the H6. All IMHO, and may God bless the PRR SPF's that are on this list - and = the Yahoo ones as well. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ------=_NextPart_000_0098_01C28FFD.AAE49480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi!
 
I'd like to ask:  Bowser = advertises=20 both kits and RTR versions of their locos.  How many of you = purchase the=20 RTR?
 
So, if all the discussions = relating to "what=20 sells and what doesn't sell" are to mean anything, don't we have to take = that=20 into consideration?
 
I want to see a good kit or RTR = version of=20 the PRR H6, H6b, H6sb, etc.; with air tank mounted on the = pilot beam=20 and without, etc.  In other words, the hobby needs a good H6.  = The=20 only ones I've ever known of are brass, and beyond economic = feasibility. =20 And at this point, with the way the hobby is going, and plastic locos = with sound=20 above $200, well - I guess we have to live with it.  So, whether = some=20 manufacturer brings out a H6, a H9, or a L1 really doesn't matter a = lot. =20 What does matter is how well the first one sells.  And if the first = one=20 sells, then more will follow.  Having said that - we already have=20 "inexpensive" H9 and L1, but NOT the H6.
 
All IMHO, and may God bless the = PRR SPF's=20 that are on this list - and the Yahoo ones as well.
 
Morgan = Bilbo
Ferroequinologist
PRRTHS=20 #1204 and SPF
------=_NextPart_000_0098_01C28FFD.AAE49480-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:35:27 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] RTR vs Kits From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" on 11/19/02 7:58 PM, PennsyNut at PennsyNut@hotmail.com wrote: > I'd like to ask: Bowser advertises both kits and RTR versions of their locos. > How many of you purchase the RTR? Bowser doesn't offer all of their locos in RtR. In fact, the ones that are offered RtR are not always available. Furthermore, the RtR units do not have the optional "deluxe detail kit" installed. It is just the base model. On some of the kits, you can order a "Deluxe Kit". This not only includes the aforementioned "deluxe detail kit", but the base kit comes predrilled for the details. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:41:06 EST Subject: Re: Linquistics... Re: [PRR] Shifters, Switchers and such In a message dated 11/19/02 5:58:54 PM, davep@quik.com writes: << Sometimes. Usage of words CHANGES over time. Comparing PRR Usage from one time to that from another will reveal changes. Ferinstance: When electrics were young they were Electric Engines Over time, they were also Electric Locomotives Latterly, they were mostly Motors or Electric Motors or Electric Units EACH of these usages exists in PRR documents at one time or another... At any one time usage may be consistent. Over time, it will usually vary. Thus 'shifter', 'shunter', etc may all be apt at some specific time.... >> IIRC, the switchers we used in NYC to move passenger cars through the tunnels underneath Penn Station were called "rats." Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 20:53:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] GP-35 question Derrick & Ted....... I did use the Kato carbody as a reference. Few years back I bought an undec. GP35 phase 1a carbody to paint as PRR. Kato's 1a carbody matches PRR GP35 exactly. I also used "PRR-Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Vol. 3" to match Kato's "phase1a" to actual PRR GP35s. Some PRR GP35s did have different hood door patterns. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: Re: [PRR] RTR vs Kits Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:05:41 -0500 I have seen the RTR Bowser engines and they just don't compare in looks to the new stuff. Many of the newer plastic compares very favorably to brass. The Rivarossi Allegheny has even better detail in many respect than my Akane Allegheny, and my Bachmann Russian comes very close to my PFM Russian. None of the Bowser RTR comes close to any of the Sunset (that crappy K4 excluded), GEM, or PFM Pennsy Stuff. Another thing to consider is that we may be seeing more metal boilers with plastic details. The upcoming Bachmann USRA 2-6-6-2 is rumored to have a metal boiler and I think that there USRA Heavy due out next year does have a metal boiler. My guess is that there are some people who enjoy building a kit, but as far as sales go, the old style metal kits can not compete with the new RTR plastic in todays model train market. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: Linquistics... Re: [PRR] Shifters, Switchers and such Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:21:03 -0500 I met the real Fat Controller on my last trip over the pond. His first name is Simon and he lives in Surry. He allowed me to try on his yellow vest and top hat before he shunted off for a "Thomas" appearance. Both were much too big for me. By god, he's waaaaay bigger than me! And I am big. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "davep" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 6:48 PM Subject: Linquistics... Re: [PRR] Shifters, Switchers and such > >> I believe on the island of Sodor, under the direction of Sir > >> Topemhat, > > Any relation to The Fat Controller? > (Hint: > Sir TophamHat is a FICTION introduced to be Politically > Correct.) > > >> the action of switching is refered to as shunting. As you > > >>may not know, the show originated in England. Shunt engines > > >> in the UK are switch engines in the US. > ....on some RRs.... > > > > Perhaps in that part of the US that is irrelevant, heh, heh. > > >But on the Standard Railroad of the World (with apologies to > > > the Raj) they were SHIFTERS. > > Sometimes. > Usage of words CHANGES over time. Comparing PRR Usage > from one time to that from another will reveal changes. > Ferinstance: > When electrics were young they were > Electric Engines > Over time, they were also > Electric Locomotives > Latterly, they were mostly > Motors or Electric Motors > or > Electric Units > > EACH of these usages exists in PRR documents at one > time or another... > > At any one time usage may be consistent. Over time, > it will usually vary. Thus 'shifter', 'shunter', > etc may all be apt at some specific time.... > -- > best > dwp > > ...the net of a million lies... > Vernor Vinge > There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. > -me > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" To: From: bobsin@nac.net, PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:29:01 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Main Line in Jersey City Hi John, >Claus answered quite a few of my questions! So it would seem >that the Jersey City trains operating after Penn Station and the >High Line were built operated by what are today the PATH tracks. > >Track configurations have no doubt changed since through >passenger service ended; and may have been different before and >after Manhattan Transfer was elminated with the AC electrification. >But where did the PRR trains enter and leave the joint service >tracks? Would this have been west of Journal Square? I'm not entirely sure, but I always thought it was EAST of Journal Square. But I don't know exactly where. I have some recollection of reading someplace (pretty vague statement, right? I believe it was in a Stauffer book or in a Carleton book, possibly Pennsy Steam A-T) that the Broker's K4 loco would be serviced mid-day at Meadows, and then the crew would run the K4 backward (tender-first) thru the PRR main located just north of the H&M Journal Square station (the PRR main was immediately adjoining the H&M tracks, and located within the same rock cut as the H&M tracks & station) and then the K4 would back onto (and couple) with it's cut of cars at Exchange Place for the evening run of the Broker to the NY&LB. >What >track did the Broker etc run on through the Journal Square area -- >certainly not on the H&M platform tracks, I think. At the western >end, there would have been crossovers in the area of >Hudson/Manhattan Transfer, of course. I have at home a photocopy of the track arrangement for the Journal Square area - I'm sorry, but I don't remember right off for what year tho! It shows exact ownership and maintenance responsibility for every single track in the area. I got this from the NJ Historical Society in Newark. There were also documents describing how electrical usage was measured on the Joint Service line, and how it was to be billed and accounted for, etc. Remember, Journal Square was the "hand-off" point, where the H&M trains left the Joint-Service Area and switched over onto their own mains, which went into the tunnel a little further east of there. I believe PRR trains could not run on tracks which had H&M platforms adjoining the track, because of clearance. The H&M cars were narrower than standard railroad equipment, thus the H&M platforms were closer to the tracks, close enuf that standard equipment probably would not clear. It was this very fact that necessitated gantlet track on the two outer tracks at Manhattan Transfer. PRR equipment making a station stop at Manhattan Transfer used the outer gantlet, and H&M trains used the inner gantlet, to position them several inches closer to the platform. As an aside, the NJ Historical Society in Newark inherited the entire H&M archive when PATH no longer wanted it - it is a MASSIVE archive, one could easily take a week or more to go thru it, and I only had a few hours! Still, it was truly a moving experience. I mean, I actually HELD IN MY HAND an original document SIGNED by Sam Rea! The documents there are wonderful to look thru, and of course H&M and PRR were quite inter-twined in many ways, especially in this geographic area. >I don't have much in the way of references for this era A lot of my info comes from "H&M Revisited" By Carleton. >but I do have >the January 1930 Official Guide reprint (sadly, falling apart year by >year unfortunately). The "Broker" was not identified as such, but it >was the only NY&LB train to Jersey City. But there were loads of >locals, notably South Amboy trains, and a handful of main line >locals too, operating out of Jersey City. >Interestingly, none of >these trains stopped at Manhattan Transfer; no need, of course, >since they had steam power all the way; but Penn Station >passengers were instructed to "change cars at Newark." Hudson >Terminal passengers, of course, were told to change at Jersey City >for these trains. Interesting that the trains did not stop at the Transfer. So for folks going to, say, 14th Street in Manhattan, there was no easy connection for the H&M service to this station! Remember, at this date H&M did not go to PRR's Newark Station - that didn't happen until about 1934 after the completion of the new Newark station building. >Some of the locals (but not the Broker!) stopped at Marion, west of >Journal Square; I imagine this is in the area of Marion Junction, >where the interchange line to the north departed. (Today, Conrail >has reconfigured the whole area with a new connection.) I can >remember a grade crossing in the area, roughly where a pedestrian >overpass exists today as a replacement. This again raises the >issue of just which tracks these trains used through the area, how >they got to the passenger "joint service" tracks, and where the >Marion platform may have been. I always thought the Marion station was gone quite early, like gone by the 1910's or so. Obviously I was wrong! You mentioned a grade crossing at Marion - can you imagine how busy this crossing must have been in the 1920's and 1930's?!? With the near-constant parade of H&M and PRR trains, the gates must have been down fully half the time! People probably had to sprint across the tracks to avoid getting hit by a train! >Today the PATH system is scrupulously careful to isolate their >tracks from mainline tracks, no doubt to avoid the need to comply >with mainline railroad safety rules -- quite a change from the joint >service days! It also makes things easier for both organizations. No need to coordinate anything between two disparate offices, each can operate with total independence from the other. John, I highly recommend you and I get together the next time I am in the New York area and that the two of us ride PATH out to Newark and back together - I think the two of us would have a great time! What do you think? - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 21:23:36 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Philip R. Hastings: Portrait of the Pennsylvania From: "Douglas Nelson" Bob and List: My thanks to Jerry, Al, and Dan for responding to the questions about my book. As the author, I thought that I would provide some additional response: > (1) are the selected shots of his more progressive approach? > (2) Do they include more than the locomotives My interest in Hastings is his broad portrayal of railroads which includes both wide landscapes and upclose studies. There are plenty of trains, but also structures, signals, and other features of the railroad landscape. Another theme is Hastings use of railroad workers in many of his photos. > (3) Are they mostly previously unpublished? I do not have an exact count, but many (maybe most?) of the photos are previously unpublished, but I believe that even the previously published shots have probably never been seen as the large, high quality reproductions that appear in the book. The difference between the varnished duotone prints in the book, and the small 1950's Trains magazine prints is like day and night. I was very impressed myself when I saw the book. The other value is having them presented in one volume as a collection. > (4) Much content West of Pittsburgh? Although not in a separate chapter, there are a few photos from Columbus, Ohio in the introduction. I was limited to what Hastings shot. > (5) Predominant era? All of the photos were taken between 1948 and 1957. It is interesting that when steam was gone from the PRR in 1957, so was Hastings. It is a great pleasure for me to share these photos with others. Hastings' work is very significant and I think that Hastings has been under-represented since his death in 1987. I welcome hearing your thoughts on the book. Doug Nelson. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Martin Skrzetuszewski" Subject: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:03:49 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C29073.BDB21A80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All, I am building a model railroad in N scale inspired by the Middle = Division of the Pennsylvania Railroad circa 1954 (but more 1951-1955). = Trains have been running on it for 13 years but it is no way finished! I run a block train of PFE/FGE cars but I have run a cut of ATSF reefers = from the start (as I liked the look of them and they were readily = available). The ATSF cars (several of which I have owned for 30 years!), = are those made by Atlas/Rivarossi of the "R-40-23" type, numbered ATSF = 8155 and lettered "Route of El Capitan" on both sides - a nice model but = completely wrong. As cash permits, I will be replacing these with = Intermountain SFRD cars. I have received a lot of info on the cars from = the santafemodellers group, but the amount of SFRD reefer working = onto/across PRR is still a bit of a mystery to me. So, I have a few unanswered questions on reefer working circa 1954 which = I hope a group member may be able to answer. >From this group's archive correspondence, I believe that PFE & FGE cars = worked together as block trains from western gateway to Enola, and that = SFRD cars did not work in the same block. What is a good ratio for PFE = to FGE cars in a block train? The route of preference to the east coast for SFRD block trains seems to = have been via the Erie, but some SFRD cars did serve the produce market = at Pittsburgh. Did SFRD cars work to, say, Philadelphia or Baltimore = over the Middle Division? Did non-PFE/FGE cars work as part of a block of mixed reefers, or as = part of a merchandise train from the west coast? Sorry if this sounds a = bit naive. Any suggestions for other marks of reefer that would have worked with = the SFRD cars regularly Pittsburgh-Enola circa 1954? FGE Paint Scheme - I have some Red Caboose FGE reefers which have a = built date of 1938. I have seen photos of FGE cars from the late 1950's = with black bands above and below the "F.G.E.-REFRIGERATOR" lettering. = The 1938 scheme model cars do not have the bands - Could someone tell me = if this 1938 paint scheme is good for 1954? I hope that you will not think I am "nit-picking". Even though my = layout, although based round Mifflin, is not going to be an accurate = model of that or the surrounding locations, I would like to get the = trains as accurate as I can - particularly as there is so much more = choice in N-scale these days. Many thanks in anticipation of your help, Martin Skrzetuszewski London, England ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C29073.BDB21A80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, = 2002 7:58=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] RTR vs = Kits

Hi!
 
I'd like to ask:  Bowser = advertises=20 both kits and RTR versions of their locos.  How many of you = purchase the=20 RTR?
 
So, if all the discussions = relating to=20 "what sells and what doesn't sell" are to mean anything, don't we have = to take=20 that into consideration?
 
I want to see a good kit or = RTR version of=20 the PRR H6, H6b, H6sb, etc.; with air tank mounted on the = pilot beam=20 and without, etc.  In other words, the hobby needs a good = H6.  The=20 only ones I've ever known of are brass, and beyond economic = feasibility. =20 And at this point, with the way the hobby is going, and plastic locos = with=20 sound above $200, well - I guess we have to live with it.  So, = whether=20 some manufacturer brings out a H6, a H9, or a L1 really doesn't matter = a=20 lot.  What does matter is how well the first one sells.  And = if the=20 first one sells, then more will follow.  Having said that - we = already=20 have "inexpensive" H9 and L1, but NOT the H6.
 
All IMHO, and may God bless = the PRR SPF's=20 that are on this list - and the Yahoo ones as well.
 
Morgan=20 Bilbo
Ferroequinologist
PRRTHS #1204 and=20 SPF
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C2908D.0A69F5A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] GP-35 question Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:55:40 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C290B5.A7F6E0D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi all; >From what I remember, the first issue of the kato GP-35 matched the first series of PRR GP-35's almost exactly. These are what folks are now calling the "Phase 1a", right? They had the full set of hood door latches. The follow-on sub-phase (Phase 1b) had the "few latch" door, which only had handles every so often, and was also modeled later by Kato, but I believe not in PRR paint? I think this was otherwise the same car body. I believe the first number series (Phase 1a's) for PRR was 2252-2308 or so. The two kato GP-35's that came out in that original series were numbered correctly, but had buff numbers (should have been scotchlite yellow) and not particularly good keys on them. The DGLE color looked OK to me, but was objectionable to some. They needed to have the equipment box added to the right side and relocated top of short hood grab, plus some mods to the m.u. The PRR also had some of the Phase 1b's that I believe began at 2309, with the few latch doors, which could be modeled with that later Kato model, or by shaving off the appropriate latcvhes off a Phase 1a. I do not know if they did the Phase 2 GP-35, which had the thinner side sill and roof top bulge. Because I am doing this off the top of my head, if you are serious about doing one of these, please check this info out. I am sure I got something wrong, but it should get you going the right direction. Best of luck, Elden - ------_=_NextPart_001_01C290B5.A7F6E0D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] GP-35 question

Hi all;
From what I remember, the first issue of the kato = GP-35 matched the first series of PRR GP-35's almost exactly.  = These are what folks are now calling the  "Phase 1a", = right?  They had the full set of hood door latches.  The = follow-on sub-phase (Phase 1b) had the "few latch" door, = which only had handles every so often, and was also modeled later by = Kato, but I believe not in PRR paint?  I think this was otherwise = the same car body. I believe the first number series (Phase 1a's) for = PRR was 2252-2308 or so.  The two kato GP-35's that came out in = that original series were numbered correctly, but had buff numbers = (should have been scotchlite yellow) and not particularly good keys on = them.  The DGLE color looked OK to me, but was objectionable to = some.  They needed to have the equipment box added to the right = side and relocated top of short hood grab, plus some mods to the = m.u.  The PRR also had some of the Phase 1b's that I believe began = at 2309, with the few latch doors, which could be modeled with that = later Kato model, or by shaving off the appropriate latcvhes off a = Phase 1a.  I do not know if they did the Phase 2 GP-35, which had = the thinner side sill and roof top bulge.  Because I am doing this = off the top of my head, if you are serious about doing one of these, = please check this info out.  I am sure I got something wrong, but = it should get you going the right direction.

Best of luck,
Elden

-

------_=_NextPart_001_01C290B5.A7F6E0D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:14:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 From: Jerry Britton On 11/20/02 12:00 PM, Dan Cupper (cupper@att.net) wrote: > > Swift Co. had a packing house in Harrisburg, north of the PRR passenger > station and not far from where Harris Tower still stands. Photos from > the 50s do show red Swift reefers in the area. > Hey, got my attention!!! I've only developed the specifics of my layout through HARRIS, at MP 104.0. I just glanced at the 1945 CT1000e and see the entries as follows: MP 104.2 Swift & Co. No. 1 and United Ice and Coal Co. No. 1 What side of the tracks was it on? I'm guessing on the (railroad) south side, along present day 7th (?) Street? I say that because at the same MP is listed Harrisburg Steel, which extends quite a distance on the (railroad) north side of the tracks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:31:55 -0500 Gents; Anybody know if those same red Swift reefers existed in1945 or earlier (WW2 years)????? Earl Myers ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Cupper" To: "Martin Skrzetuszewski" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 > Greetings to Martin and the List: > > Swift Co. had a packing house in Harrisburg, north of the PRR passenger > station and not far from where Harris Tower still stands. Photos from > the 50s do show red Swift reefers in the area. > > Dan Cupper > > > > Martin Skrzetuszewski wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > I am building a model railroad in N scale inspired by the Middle > > Division of the Pennsylvania Railroad circa 1954 (but more 1951-1955). > > Trains have been running on it for 13 years but it is no way finished! > > > > I run a block train of PFE/FGE cars but I have run a cut of ATSF > > reefers from the start (as I liked the look of them and they were > > readily available). The ATSF cars (several of which I have owned for > > 30 years!), are those made by Atlas/Rivarossi of the "R-40-23" > > type, numbered ATSF 8155 and lettered "Route of El Capitan" on both > > sides - a nice model but completely wrong. As cash permits, I will be > > replacing these with Intermountain SFRD cars. I have received a lot of > > info on the cars from the santafemodellers group, but the amount of > > SFRD reefer working onto/across PRR is still a bit of a mystery to me. > > > > So, I have a few unanswered questions on reefer working circa 1954 > > which I hope a group member may be able to answer. > > > > From this group's archive correspondence, I believe that PFE & FGE > > cars worked together as block trains from western gateway to Enola, > > and that SFRD cars did not work in the same block. What is a good > > ratio for PFE to FGE cars in a block train? > > > > The route of preference to the east coast for SFRD block trains seems > > to have been via the Erie, but some SFRD cars did serve the produce > > market at Pittsburgh. Did SFRD cars work to, say, Philadelphia or > > Baltimore over the Middle Division? > > > > Did non-PFE/FGE cars work as part of a block of mixed reefers, or as > > part of a merchandise train from the west coast? Sorry if this sounds > > a bit naive. > > > > Any suggestions for other marks of reefer that would have worked with > > the SFRD cars regularly Pittsburgh-Enola circa 1954? > > > > FGE Paint Scheme - I have some Red Caboose FGE reefers which have a > > built date of 1938. I have seen photos of FGE cars from the late > > 1950's with black bands above and below the "F.G.E.-REFRIGERATOR" > > lettering. The 1938 scheme model cars do not have the bands - Could > > someone tell me if this 1938 paint scheme is good for 1954? > > > > I hope that you will not think I am "nit-picking". Even though my > > layout, although based round Mifflin, is not going to be an accurate > > model of that or the surrounding locations, I would like to get the > > trains as accurate as I can - particularly as there is so much more > > choice in N-scale these days. > > > > Many thanks in anticipation of your help, > > Martin Skrzetuszewski > > London, England > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:39:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 From: Jerry Britton On 11/20/02 12:00 PM, Dan Cupper (cupper@att.net) wrote: > Swift Co. had a packing house in Harrisburg, north of the PRR passenger > station and not far from where Harris Tower still stands. Photos from > the 50s do show red Swift reefers in the area. > This sent me scurrying for "red Swift reefers" in N scale. No such luck. InterMountain currently has white Swift "Premium" reefers, though! Dan: I'm guessing the Swift plant must've been about where the Greyhound bus station was for a few years (when it had left the train station). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] GP-35 question Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:44:56 -0800 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C290BC.89E0AED0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Yeah, Right out of the bag, they did not do as good a job as they could have with the finish. Those numbers were baaad. However, they dress up into a nice model with some work, and sure run nice! Unfortunate fat railings, but awful nice detail work on the shell. Elden -----Original Message----- From: Derrick J Brashear [mailto:shadow@dementia.org] Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 9:00 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] GP-35 question On Wed, 20 Nov 2002, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > From what I remember, the first issue of the kato GP-35 matched the first > series of PRR GP-35's almost exactly. These are what folks are now calling > the "Phase 1a", right? Yeah, "them's the ones" > the first number series (Phase 1a's) for PRR was 2252-2308 or so. The two > kato GP-35's that came out in that original series were numbered correctly, > but had buff numbers (should have been scotchlite yellow) and not > particularly good keys on them. The DGLE color looked OK to me, but was > objectionable to some. It was less "green" than the SD40, and so not as bad, but it still looked too "green" to me; That's subjective, granted. But the big annoyance (I think; the model isn't handy) is the font used for the numbers on the cab isn't even close. If I have some time I have undecs of all 3 shells somewhere. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C290BC.89E0AED0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] GP-35 question

Yeah, Right out of the bag, they did not do as good a = job as they could have with the finish.  Those numbers were = baaad.  However, they dress up into a nice model with some work, = and sure run nice!  Unfortunate fat railings, but awful nice = detail work on the shell.

Elden

-----Original Message-----
From: Derrick J Brashear [mailto:shadow@dementia.org]
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 9:00 AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] GP-35 question


On Wed, 20 Nov 2002, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote:

> From what I remember, the first issue of the = kato GP-35 matched the first
> series of PRR GP-35's almost exactly.  = These are what folks are now calling
> the  "Phase 1a", right?  =

Yeah, "them's the ones"

> the first number series (Phase 1a's) for PRR was = 2252-2308 or so.  The two
> kato GP-35's that came out in that original = series were numbered correctly,
> but had buff numbers (should have been = scotchlite yellow) and not
> particularly good keys on them.  The DGLE = color looked OK to me, but was
> objectionable to some.

It was less "green" than the SD40, and so = not as bad, but it still looked
too "green" to me; That's subjective, = granted. But the big annoyance (I
think; the model isn't handy) is the font used for = the numbers on the cab
isn't even close.

If I have some time I have undecs of all 3 shells = somewhere.



---------------------------------------------------------------= --------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C290BC.89E0AED0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:25:24 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR] RTR vs Kits Listers, Caldwell's note is essentially correct but I have made observations about traction tires that make me shy away from them. Rivarossi was using traction tires in the 60's when they first came out. You could load a loco up with 50 cars and it would pull them without a driver slip. Therein lies the hidden danger. I was operating a display in the hobby shop where I worked. We had a small layout with a grade. The "loco of the day" was a Rivarossi Pacific and 10 lighted passenger cars. The loco was running for about two hours when it suddenly stopped. After we took it into the shop to find out why we noticed a "smell" coming from the loco. The loco had completely melted the plastic motor mount in the frame. It appears that the traction tires didn't permit the loco to slip it's drivers and the excess current finally overheated the motor. We tend to forget that models do not "scale" their weight and we expect way too much in respect to their size. As far as brass vs plastic traction I have seen several brass locomotives (other than PFM) that have fallen well below acceptable levels. Today's brass locos are not designed for the people that want to run them. They are made for the scurge of our hobby called "collectors". These people buy them as "investments" for profit. The locos are so finely detailed that they are almost non-functional. Buffer plates that do not permit the drivers to tolerate small deviations in trackwork. Details that do not permit the pilot wheels to take curves less than 50" radius. And prices that make them compete with used cars. I know the days of the $49.95 brass NYC hudsons are gone forever but let us not forget that if weighted and BALANCED properly, a plastic loco will perform admirably. Recently I took one of my new P2k 0-8-0 switchers to an op session. The owner has a stable of beautiful brass locomotives that run, look, and sound great but his stable of decent shifters is somewhat lacking. Since I prefer to run steam, I took my home-road loco to work the yard. He was very skepticle about the capability of the plastic loco to work the yard but when I pulled the longest string in the yard, about 20 cars, he had to admit that it would work out. That little engine worked the entire session without missing a beat. On the other hand, this weekend I hooked up my P2K HH1 to a string of 18 hoppers and it stalled on a curving 1.75% grade and required helpers. Big engine, no traction. I also witnessed a beautiful Key M1, factory painted, that couldn't pull 7 cars up a 1.5% grade. At the time, the loco sold for $465.00 in 1985. By todays prices that would be around $1800.00 or better. I'll take a plastic locomotive over that kind of performance any day. Comparing brass and plastic is like comparing apples and red-painted oranges. They look the same from a distance but are totally different. My opinion is offered freely and is worth twice as much. Regards, Nick Kulp From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:26:55 -0600 While your Bachmann Russian detail-wise comes very close to your PFM engine, I suspect in tractive effort the two are no where near comparable. This is because the weight of the brass engine. I think the tractive effort of the Bachmann is under 2 oz., which means it will probably have problems pulling itself up moderate grades. This is one of the inherent problems associated with the P2K, Genesis, and Bachmann steam locomotives. The shear weight of the brass engine contributes to its pulling power. Not so with the new plastic models. While the lack of tractive effort may not be so noticeable in the larger, new plastic steam engines (such as the P2K 2-8-8-2), it is very pronounced in the smaller engines, particularly in the aforementioned 2-10-0 and the 0-6-0 from Life Like. One "fix" to this problem is the traction tire - I believe all the Rivarossi locomotives (including the new 2-6-6-6) have one. Of course, this can lead to a certain "wobbling" when the locomotive moves down the track! http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:43:32 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 I realized that this info is not specifically relevant to the current discussion of 1950s reefer traffic, but interesting nevertheless. Because of the imbalance of loaded traffic east and mtys west for tank cars, reefers and stock cars the PRR ran several trains of mtys westward with the symbol TRS (Tank,Reefer,Stock) in the 1920s and 1930s. If you all are interested I'll post additional info about these trains (TRS 1,3,5,7,1 9,11,13,15, and 330, which originated and terminated at different locations. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:46:38 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Swift Reefers (was Reefer traffic in 1954) >Gents; > Anybody know if those same red Swift reefers existed in1945 or earlier (WW2 >years)????? >Earl Myers Earl, Richard Hendrickson, over on the Steam Era FC list said that Swift reefers first go a large red SWIFT logo on the right side before 1949 and sometime after 1947. The bright red and white Swift cars began to appear as early as April, 1950. An example of this is shown on the model at http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-2571 a Walther's Meat reefer. This General American built "belt rail" reefer was built post war (a few were built prior to WWII, but not the Walthers car). Swift had a sizeable reefer fleet in WW2, just not as vivid . Sunshine offers a number of appropriate Swift cars in HO. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Frank & Andrea Amato" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:07:03 -0600 Jerry, et al: I believe that Micro-Trains and MDC both make a suitable 34' version of the Swift cars (N scale I should specify). I don't know of a correct decal set, but I'm certain I saw decorated versions at some point... Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Dan Cupper" ; "Martin Skrzetuszewski" Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 > On 11/20/02 12:00 PM, Dan Cupper (cupper@att.net) wrote: > > > Swift Co. had a packing house in Harrisburg, north of the PRR passenger > > station and not far from where Harris Tower still stands. Photos from > > the 50s do show red Swift reefers in the area. > > > This sent me scurrying for "red Swift reefers" in N scale. No such luck. > InterMountain currently has white Swift "Premium" reefers, though! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] RTR vs Kits Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:44:54 -0600 From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" I can't comment on the recent brass releases. It is difficult to justify purchasing a locomotive for more than a typical home entertainment center costs. I do have a PFM Frisco decapod which I purchased in the 1970s which can easily handle 35 average weighted and trucks HO cars on flat terrain. And, there is plenty of room in the boiler of this engine to add more weight. I have bought one of Bachmann's new decapods. I note that in one of the model magazines reviews that the tractive effort of this locomotive is less than 1.5 oz. This engine will require a lot of tweaking to bring it up to its brass equivalent in pulling power. I agree entirely with Nick's statement about traction tires. -----Original Message----- From: Nick Kulp [mailto:caseyj@igateway.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 12:25 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] RTR vs Kits Listers, Caldwell's note is essentially correct but I have made observations about traction tires that make me shy away from them. Rivarossi was using traction tires in the 60's when they first came out. You could load a loco up with 50 cars and it would pull them without a driver slip. Therein lies the hidden danger. I was operating a display in the hobby shop where I worked. We had a small layout with a grade. The "loco of the day" was a Rivarossi Pacific and 10 lighted passenger cars. The loco was running for about two hours when it suddenly stopped. After we took it into the shop to find out why we noticed a "smell" coming from the loco. The loco had completely melted the plastic motor mount in the frame. It appears that the traction tires didn't permit the loco to slip it's drivers and the excess current finally overheated the motor. We tend to forget that models do not "scale" their weight and we expect way too much in respect to their size. As far as brass vs plastic traction I have seen several brass locomotives (other than PFM) that have fallen well below acceptable levels. Today's brass locos are not designed for the people that want to run them. They are made for the scurge of our hobby called "collectors". These people buy them as "investments" for profit. The locos are so finely detailed that they are almost non-functional. Buffer plates that do not permit the drivers to tolerate small deviations in trackwork. Details that do not permit the pilot wheels to take curves less than 50" radius. And prices that make them compete with used cars. I know the days of the $49.95 brass NYC hudsons are gone forever but let us not forget that if weighted and BALANCED properly, a plastic loco will perform admirably. Recently I took one of my new P2k 0-8-0 switchers to an op session. The owner has a stable of beautiful brass locomotives that run, look, and sound great but his stable of decent shifters is somewhat lacking. Since I prefer to run steam, I took my home-road loco to work the yard. He was very skepticle about the capability of the plastic loco to work the yard but when I pulled the longest string in the yard, about 20 cars, he had to admit that it would work out. That little engine worked the entire session without missing a beat. On the other hand, this weekend I hooked up my P2K HH1 to a string of 18 hoppers and it stalled on a curving 1.75% grade and required helpers. Big engine, no traction. I also witnessed a beautiful Key M1, factory painted, that couldn't pull 7 cars up a 1.5% grade. At the time, the loco sold for $465.00 in 1985. By todays prices that would be around $1800.00 or better. I'll take a plastic locomotive over that kind of performance any day. Comparing brass and plastic is like comparing apples and red-painted oranges. They look the same from a distance but are totally different. My opinion is offered freely and is worth twice as much. Regards, Nick Kulp From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:26:55 -0600 While your Bachmann Russian detail-wise comes very close to your PFM engine, I suspect in tractive effort the two are no where near comparable. This is because the weight of the brass engine. I think the tractive effort of the Bachmann is under 2 oz., which means it will probably have problems pulling itself up moderate grades. This is one of the inherent problems associated with the P2K, Genesis, and Bachmann steam locomotives. The shear weight of the brass engine contributes to its pulling power. Not so with the new plastic models. While the lack of tractive effort may not be so noticeable in the larger, new plastic steam engines (such as the P2K 2-8-8-2), it is very pronounced in the smaller engines, particularly in the aforementioned 2-10-0 and the 0-6-0 from Life Like. One "fix" to this problem is the traction tire - I believe all the Rivarossi locomotives (including the new 2-6-6-6) have one. Of course, this can lead to a certain "wobbling" when the locomotive moves down the track! http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 15:29:15 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: [PRR] [Fwd: [soundtraxx] Re: Baldwins & Fairbanks Morse] --------------010102090509020700030807 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All: I know that, usually, cross posts are frowned upon, but... This was posted on the Soundtraxx list and it should be of great interest to all of us PRR folks with C-liners and Erie Builts... Yesterday, I e-mailed soundtraxx asking if they had any plans to add Fairbanks Morse to their line of sound decoders. Today I received a response stating that Fairbanks Morse will be added to the product line sometime during the first quarter of 2003. Santa's bringing me two S scale FM SP Blackwidow trainmasters so I told soundtraxx to put me on the list for two units -- YEAH! John Gibson Rocklin, CA posted to PRR Talk by Jeff Warner --------------010102090509020700030807 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All:

I know that, usually, cross posts are frowned upon, but...

This was posted on the Soundtraxx list and it should be of great interest to all of us PRR folks with C-liners and Erie Builts...

Yesterday, I e-mailed soundtraxx asking if they had any plans to add 

Fairbanks Morse to their line of sound decoders.  Today I received a 

response stating that Fairbanks Morse will be added to the product 

line sometime during the first quarter of 2003.



Santa's bringing me two S scale FM SP Blackwidow trainmasters so I 

told soundtraxx to put me on the list for two units -- YEAH!



John Gibson

Rocklin, CA







posted to PRR Talk by Jeff Warner
--------------010102090509020700030807-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 15:38:00 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 Cousin Bruce wrote (incorrectly !): The bottom line though is that produce was not a big item for the PRR to haul, so reefers should be small percentage of the cars on the layout. Well, it depend on which PRR we are talking about. There was a huge amount of reefer traffic NORTH on the Delmarva Division, mostly FGE cars with Eastern Shore produce. In fact, that's why the NYP&N was built by Cassatt and Scott: to get produce and seafood north to Philly and NYC. They also captured traffic from the Carolinas. There is a photo of a reefer block being pulled out of Cape Charles by an L1s in Balls 50s book. Jim McDaniel, here in Delmarva where we still grow the worlds best Vegetables! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 15:49:50 -0500 Awright, guys, I know a little bit about this, as I was the Pennsylvania Railroad's Sales Representative assigned to the Pennsylvania Produce Terminal in Baltimore, Maryland, in 1965 and 1966, when the PRR decided it was losing its a** on perishable traffic and started a marketing study to decide what to do about it. Since there was no "marketing department" in those days, it fell upon sales and rates to do the work. Therefore, I dealt not only with Baltimore, but had discussions with my counterparts at other locations. Generally, the terminals had about 20 to 30 brokers, each specializing in specific items, like Florida citrus, California fruits, California veggies, Rio Grande Valley veggies (you guys haven't mentioned that yet). Produce and citrus from Florida came in FGE controlled reefers, primarily. These were FGE, WFE. and BREX. California veggies came mostly in PFE's as ATSF did not get into the Imperial Valley, but Calfornia fruit (citrus, grapes, etc) was split between SFRD and PFE with Sunkist tending toward SFRD. Rio Grande Valley came in some PFE's and some ART's (which came off the Wabash at Logansport). Apples came in WFE, NP, and PFE cars from the Northwest. Really, you could almost look at a car's reporting marks and tell which broker it belonged to! As to what I recommended, the brokers had not had an increase in rent since the terminal opened in 1935 (30 years), so PRR quadrupled the rent. Several brokers threatened bodily harm to the person responsible, but I knew to keep my mouth shut!!!!!!! The Florida citrus guy threatened to move to the B&O and he was told good riddance, as PRR had a 44 mile haul from Pot. Yd.. We were 45 dollars in the hole BEFORE transportation expenses. So, East of Conway, reefers from St. Louis (PFE), Logansport (ART), and Chicago (SFRD) were mixed into blocks for Baltimore, Philadelphia, etc.. Now, as to N scale, since I model PRR in that scale. M-T had a red 40' swift reefer (49400) that can be found), MDC has a 36' one, but the roof is the same red as the sides (wrong!), and I-M has made one, along with many others. I have a Dubuque and an Armour. I-M has made a steel R-40-23 in FGE (at least 12 numbers) and is planning to offer a wood FGE reefer from FGE plans soon in N scale. I have M-T wood ones with Clover House dry transfers. FGE stayed with wood longer than PFE or SFRD. Martin mentions the FGE cars with the two black stripes. These are NOT refrigerator cars, but insulated boxcars that when in Fruit Growers marks, went by RBNX. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank & Andrea Amato" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 > > Jerry, et al: > > I believe that Micro-Trains and MDC both make a suitable 34' version of the > Swift cars (N scale I should specify). I don't know of a correct decal set, > but I'm certain I saw decorated versions at some point... > > Frank > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jerry Britton" > To: "Dan Cupper" ; "Martin Skrzetuszewski" > > Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" > Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 11:39 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 > > > > On 11/20/02 12:00 PM, Dan Cupper (cupper@att.net) wrote: > > > > > Swift Co. had a packing house in Harrisburg, north of the PRR passenger > > > station and not far from where Harris Tower still stands. Photos from > > > the 50s do show red Swift reefers in the area. > > > > > This sent me scurrying for "red Swift reefers" in N scale. No such luck. > > InterMountain currently has white Swift "Premium" reefers, though! > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:01:36 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: Linquistics... Re: [PRR] Shifters, Switchers and such > IIRC, the switchers we used in NYC to move passenger cars > through the tunnels underneath Penn Station were called > "rats." I've a friend with that problem on his Model RR... ...and at least one 'display layout' in the UK has a motorized mouse which runs to a schedule... best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] [Fwd: [soundtraxx] Re: Baldwins & Fairbanks Morse] Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:18:38 +0000 I assume those trainmasters are SP because they will be the easiest to repaint DGLE. N Bell > All: > > I know that, usually, cross posts are frowned upon, but... > > This was posted on the Soundtraxx list and it should be of great > interest to all of us PRR folks with C-liners and Erie Builts... > > Yesterday, I e-mailed soundtraxx asking if they had any plans to add > Fairbanks Morse to their line of sound decoders. Today I received a > response stating that Fairbanks Morse will be added to the product > line sometime during the first quarter of 2003. > > Santa's bringing me two S scale FM SP Blackwidow trainmasters so I > told soundtraxx to put me on the list for two units -- YEAH! > > John Gibson > Rocklin, CA > > > > posted to PRR Talk by Jeff Warner > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:44:53 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Model tractive effort (was RTR vs Kits) In a message dated 11/20/02 12:42:53 PM Central Standard Time, caseyj@igateway.com writes: << The locos are so finely detailed that they are almost non-functional. >> My 30 year old Gem H10 had the water scoop modeled in the down position. Made it a little tough to go through switches. Having done our track cleaning study, I would not only not buy a loco with a traction tire, I would push for banning them from our club layout. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:10:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] GP-35 question Kato's painted PRR GP35s were really BAAAD! I always bought the undecs. But they run and pull better than any other HO diesel on the market. Kato has annouced a PRR SD45. Just add signal box,MU line,and Sinclair antenna. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:12:29 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] TRS-Tank Reefer Stock Well at least one person wanted to hear more about the PRR westbound TRS arranged freight service. Because of the imbalance of loads eastward and mtys westward in tank, reefer and stock cars the PRR ran mty trains of these classes of cars back west using the arranged freight symbol TRS - Tanks-Reefers-Stock. These ran at least in the 1920s and 1930s. I don't have any 1940s arranged freight service schedules, but they don't appear in the 1950 ones I have. Here's the line up of daily TRS trains from the January 1928 GN 234-A. TRS 1 Meadows-Chicago 4:00 p.m. - 6:30 p.m. 4th day 3 Harrisburg-East St. Louis 7:30 p.m. - 12:30 a.m. 5th day 5 Greenville-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 2:00 p.m.- 8:00 p.m. 7 Waverly-West Morrisville (to TRS1) 4:00 p.m.-10:00 p.m. 9 Bay View-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3, or PG19) 2:00 a.m.-11:30 a.m. 11 52d Street (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 3:00 a.m.-1:00 p.m. 13 Conway-Crestline 4:30 p.m.-12:01 p.m. 15 Altoona-Crestline (included mty foreign boxcars)1:30 a.m.-10:00 a.m. 29 Greenwich (PHL)-Harrisburg (to TRS1, TRS3 or PG19) 6:00 p.m.-7:00 a.m. 33 Edge Moor-Harrisburg 8:30 p.m.-8:00 a.m. PG19 was a Harrisburg-Pitcairn train Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] TRS-Tank Reefer Stock Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:23:49 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C290CA.5A2A2460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! Now you got me interested! In stock car movement. I know PRR didn't = have many (K8 comes to mind), but in reference to the thread on TRS, = what info is available on what railroad's stock cars traveled the PRR? Thanks. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C290CA.5A2A2460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi!
 
Now you got me interested!  = In stock=20 car movement.  I know PRR didn't have many (K8 comes to mind), but = in=20 reference to the thread on TRS, what info is available on what = railroad's stock=20 cars traveled the PRR?
 
Thanks.
 
Morgan = Bilbo
Ferroequinologist
PRRTHS=20 #1204 and SPF
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C290CA.5A2A2460-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:45:18 -0400 From: A Samostie Subject: [PRR] PRR-DL&W Interchange Dear Group, A forwarded message of PRR interest from the erielack mailgroup. Cheers, Alan Samostie -------- Original Message -------- Subject: (erielack) PRR Interchange Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 00:05:06 -0500 From: "Schuyler G Larrabee" Reply-To: "Schuyler G Larrabee" To: "Erie Lackawanna List" A friend, infected with PRR disease, wants to know what might have been interchanged between the PRR and DL&W in West Nanticoke, PA. And in Northumberland, PA. And why would PRR or DL&W shortline themselves by interchanging anything which was going to go up or down the Susquehanna Valley between those points before they had to. (My sense on the last point is that they didn't absent shipper's instructions to do so.) I think the time period in question here is 40's-50's. Anyone here know anything about this? SGL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:48:16 -0400 From: A Samostie Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-DL&W Interchange Dear Group, A couple of responses to the PRR-DL&W interchange question from the erielack mailgroup. Cheers, Alan Samostie > ----- Original Message ----- From: "David J. Monte Verde" "David J. Monte Verde" wrote: > > I think the most common thing that the DL&W and PRR interchanged was DL&W > Anthracite originated coal to PRR and PRR originated bituminous coal to the > DL&W. > "This only my opinion, and I may be wrong" Regards David MV > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janet & Randy Brown" SGL and PRR friend -- In those days, every freight shipment moved on a published rate and every rate applied subject to a route. Absent other provisions, the route was that found in the general routing guides of the participating carriers which, indeed, tending to long haul the publishing carrier. If the PRR, say, and the DL&W worked together to establish a rate for a specific commodity between a point on the DL&W and a point on the PRR, they might negotiate an intermediate interchange to give each of them some linehaul revenue. Otherwise, the short-hauled carrier might have to levy a switching charge in addition to the through rate, such charge to be added to the through charge at the customer's expense. There was nothing optional or discretionary in the determination of charges. They were govereed by tariffs filed with and enforced by the ICC, whose general rule was that the rate applied must be that which produced the lowest cost to the customer -- unless the customer had included on the bill of lading specific routing instructions to the contrary. Books have been written about and archives filled with rate disputes and the Federal and state laws governing. Let it suffice that if the PRR and DL&W interchanged at Nanticoke, there was a valid tariff provision compelling them to do so. Not permitting -- compelling. Randy Brown ELHS#16, who spent much of his working life in those disputes. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:42:14 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR-DL&W Interchange Alan, Schuyler, et al., Re: what might have been interchanged between the PRR and DL&W in West Nanticoke, PA. And in Northumberland, PA. My SWAG is most of it was anthracite coal from the DL&W northeastern anthracite mines to fuel dealers located in hamlets of any size on the PRR. Anthracite coal was once the fuel of choice for home heating. Also as fact, at one time the PRR transshipped anthracite coal from the P&E coal docks in Erie, so some of it may have been that traffic also. When both the E&P and P&E coal docks in Erie were operational the E&P was sometimes called the bituminous dock while the P&E was the anthracite dock. Al ======================== -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of A Samostie Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:45 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR-DL&W Interchange Dear Group, A forwarded message of PRR interest from the erielack mailgroup. Cheers, Alan Samostie -------- Original Message -------- Subject: (erielack) PRR Interchange Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 00:05:06 -0500 From: "Schuyler G Larrabee" <> Reply-To: "Schuyler G Larrabee" To: "Erie Lackawanna List" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-DL&W Interchange Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:05:30 -0500 I seem to recall that it was strictly traffic to and from the Berwick area. Mostly box cars from the Berwick ACF plant, later Berwick Forge Co. BF built box cars for a while too. There were other local industries up and down the line as well. Don't ever recall any hoppers during my tenure there which was short. One thing we did interchange about three times a year was the circus train (James Strates Shows) that played at Binghamton (E-L), then York, Pa. (PRR), then backtracked to Bloomsburg (E-L), then back onto the PRR for the trip to Florida for the winter. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of A Samostie Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:48 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-DL&W Interchange Dear Group, A couple of responses to the PRR-DL&W interchange question from the erielack mailgroup. Cheers, Alan Samostie > ----- Original Message ----- From: "David J. Monte Verde" "David J. Monte Verde" wrote: > > I think the most common thing that the DL&W and PRR interchanged was DL&W > Anthracite originated coal to PRR and PRR originated bituminous coal to the > DL&W. > "This only my opinion, and I may be wrong" Regards David MV > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janet & Randy Brown" SGL and PRR friend -- In those days, every freight shipment moved on a published rate and every rate applied subject to a route. Absent other provisions, the route was that found in the general routing guides of the participating carriers which, indeed, tending to long haul the publishing carrier. If the PRR, say, and the DL&W worked together to establish a rate for a specific commodity between a point on the DL&W and a point on the PRR, they might negotiate an intermediate interchange to give each of them some linehaul revenue. Otherwise, the short-hauled carrier might have to levy a switching charge in addition to the through rate, such charge to be added to the through charge at the customer's expense. There was nothing optional or discretionary in the determination of charges. They were govereed by tariffs filed with and enforced by the ICC, whose general rule was that the rate applied must be that which produced the lowest cost to the customer -- unless the customer had included on the bill of lading specific routing instructions to the contrary. Books have been written about and archives filled with rate disputes and the Federal and state laws governing. Let it suffice that if the PRR and DL&W interchanged at Nanticoke, there was a valid tariff provision compelling them to do so. Not permitting -- compelling. Randy Brown ELHS#16, who spent much of his working life in those disputes. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:06:13 -0500 Subject: [PRR] New TV Series From: Jerry Britton Okay, last night I sat through two hours of the season finale of "The Bachelor", as my wife watched it. Fortunately, the ol' laptap was close at hand to save me from a fate worse than death. Then I thought... What if they took an SPF and sat him in front of 25 locomotives. After a week he'd kick 10 of them off the show; down to 15. And so on and so forth until, after six weeks, he had to choose his favorite locomotive! Sorry, couldn't resist that one! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:59:06 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] New TV Series .... Which reminds me. TV can sneak up on you. HGTV (cable: home & Garden), I dropped into the middle of a segment on a restored PRR Station/hotel. Someplace Rural, I'm guessing along the Low Grade? Active CR (older video?) line adjacent, PRR Transmission line poles in place. Never did mention the location, in what I saw. SAID to have been owned by a retired president of the PRR??? best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:18:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] New TV Series Jerry, I would end up picking Kay-4..... Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:22:37 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] New TV Series From: Jerry Britton On 11/21/02 11:18 AM, Gary Mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote: > I would end up picking Kay-4..... > Not gonna go for the "Hippo", huh? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:48:25 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Sam's the Masters candidate (Buyers and Manufacturers) In a message dated 11/20/02 9:13:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > Rick: > > Not sure I understand your "thread". Are you seeking information that we > are > supposed to reply to? If so, what? Perhaps you might run some polls on the > list if you need specific data. Just a suggestion. Good luck in the Masters > > program! > > Dave > Dave, Thanks Dave, but I got my MBA a coon's age ago. I'll bet you're responding to a scrambled derivative message I've seen, part the question from Sam Vastano (masters candidate) and part my answer, followed by my signature block. I know that "Buyers and Manufacturers" was the subject I sent in answer to Sam's original question. Nevertheless (from the standpoint of an old market researcher), you bring up a good point. I'd suggest that, now that many textual answers have been posted on PRR-Modeling, PRR-Fax, and maybe PRR-Talk, Sam might put together a "structured instrument" (in English, a questionnaire) that he can use as part of his thesis. When it comes to buying model railroad equipment, and why we buy what we buy, and why manufacturers make what they make, everyone on any of these lists IS an expert witness! Best of luck to Sam... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:48:25 EST Subject: [PRR] Sam's the Masters candidate (Buyers and Manufacturers) --part1_1a6.c56368c.2b0e6859_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/20/02 9:13:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > Rick: > > Not sure I understand your "thread". Are you seeking information that we > are > supposed to reply to? If so, what? Perhaps you might run some polls on the > list if you need specific data. Just a suggestion. Good luck in the Masters > > program! > > Dave > Dave, Thanks Dave, but I got my MBA a coon's age ago. I'll bet you're responding to a scrambled derivative message I've seen, part the question from Sam Vastano (masters candidate) and part my answer, followed by my signature block. I know that "Buyers and Manufacturers" was the subject I sent in answer to Sam's original question. Nevertheless (from the standpoint of an old market researcher), you bring up a good point. I'd suggest that, now that many textual answers have been posted on PRR-Modeling, PRR-Fax, and maybe PRR-Talk, Sam might put together a "structured instrument" (in English, a questionnaire) that he can use as part of his thesis. When it comes to buying model railroad equipment, and why we buy what we buy, and why manufacturers make what they make, everyone on any of these lists IS an expert witness! Best of luck to Sam... Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_1a6.c56368c.2b0e6859_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/20/02 9:13:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes:


Rick:

Not sure I understand your "thread". Are you seeking information that we are
supposed to reply to? If so, what? Perhaps you might run some polls on the
list if you need specific data. Just a suggestion. Good luck in the Masters
program!

Dave


Dave,

Thanks Dave, but I got my MBA a coon's age ago.  I'll bet you're responding to a scrambled derivative message I've seen, part the question from Sam Vastano (masters candidate) and part my answer, followed by my signature block.  I know that "Buyers and Manufacturers" was the subject I sent in answer to Sam's original question.

Nevertheless (from the standpoint of an old market researcher), you bring up a good point.  I'd suggest that, now that many textual answers have been posted on PRR-Modeling, PRR-Fax, and maybe PRR-Talk, Sam might put together a "structured instrument" (in English, a questionnaire) that he can use as part of his thesis.

When it comes to buying model railroad equipment, and why we buy what we buy, and why manufacturers make what they make, everyone on any of these lists IS an expert witness!  Best of luck to Sam...


                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_1a6.c56368c.2b0e6859_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: Re: [PRR] New TV Series Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 07:51:29 -0900 Pass on the "Mikes" too. *groan* ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Gary Mittner" Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 7:22 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] New TV Series > On 11/21/02 11:18 AM, Gary Mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote: > > > I would end up picking Kay-4..... > > > Not gonna go for the "Hippo", huh? ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: RE: [PRR] New TV Series Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:11:16 -0600 Not gonna go for the "Hippo", huh? ;-) ------------------ Come on now, ya gotta love a gal that's in it for the long haul. Them big girls got more to love. Pete Reinhold Elmira Branch 1950 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:22:42 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] New TV Series From: Jerry Britton On 11/21/02 12:11 PM, Pete Reinhold (preinhol@unidie.com) wrote: > Not gonna go for the "Hippo", huh? ;-) > ------------------ > Come on now, ya gotta love a gal that's in it for the long haul. Them > big girls got more to love. > One thing you can say about the I-1...nice tanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Sam's the Masters candidate (Buyers and Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:27:05 -0500 Rick, I might just do that. I have got quite a few responses but I think I can get better data with a stardardized form.. Going away for the weekend so it will have to be next week some time. Thanks to all who responded... Sam Vastano >From: RickTipton@aol.com >Reply-To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com >To: PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com, PRR@egroups.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR-Modeling] Sam's the Masters candidate (Buyers and >Manufacturers) >Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:48:25 EST > >In a message dated 11/20/02 9:13:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, >PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > > > > Rick: > > > > Not sure I understand your "thread". Are you seeking information that we > > are > > supposed to reply to? If so, what? Perhaps you might run some polls on >the > > list if you need specific data. Just a suggestion. Good luck in the >Masters > > > > program! > > > > Dave > > > >Dave, > >Thanks Dave, but I got my MBA a coon's age ago. I'll bet you're responding >to a scrambled derivative message I've seen, part the question from Sam >Vastano (masters candidate) and part my answer, followed by my signature >block. I know that "Buyers and Manufacturers" was the subject I sent in >answer to Sam's original question. > >Nevertheless (from the standpoint of an old market researcher), you bring >up >a good point. I'd suggest that, now that many textual answers have been >posted on PRR-Modeling, PRR-Fax, and maybe PRR-Talk, Sam might put together >a >"structured instrument" (in English, a questionnaire) that he can use as >part >of his thesis. > >When it comes to buying model railroad equipment, and why we buy what we >buy, >and why manufacturers make what they make, everyone on any of these lists >IS >an expert witness! Best of luck to Sam... > > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:46:28 -0500 OK- Here's one for you (Bet you didn't know department). In 1963 when I was working night Asst. Foreman at 59th Street Enginehouse, there was a small railroad (NYC subsidiary) known as the Chicago River and Indiana RR which owned a 100% Lima diesel switcher fleet. Locally they were known as the "CJ", short for Chicago Junction, and they switched a produce terminal where the Stock Yards once were, locally known as "The Freezers". Blocks of reefers would come into the Freezers from western origins and be opened up for inspection of their lading by vegetable brokers. These guys would squeeze the lettuce or bananas or whatever and make a judgment call on the condition (i.e. ripeness) of the veggies and fruits. They would then mark down the car numbers and phone their buyers in Philadelphia as to how much they should bid on the contents of each car at the Philadelphia grocery auction. Once the car was locked up again, it was on a VERY tight timetable to make auction by 3 AM the second day out which meant that the PRR had to hustle those babies. If the train (CG-8) was late and the cars didn't make the 3 AM auction, they sat another 24 hours and the lettuce began to wilt, naturally. When the lettuce wilted, the guilty parties on the Pennsy were made to wilt along with them! So there. Aren't you glad to know that little bit of trivia? And by the way, CG-8 always received GG-1s or E-44s at Enola. No P-5s on THAT run! WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 9:51 AM To: PRR-Talk; Bruce F. Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 You touched on southern trains but what was the car of choice for say the orange and grapefruit traffic out of Florida as well as onions out of Georgia? What about other centers of produce in the south? Thanks, Norm Bell > Martin asks some great questions about reefer traffic on the PRR. > > >I believe that PFE & FGE cars worked together as block trains from > >western gateway to Enola, and that SFRD cars did not work in the same > >block. What is a good ratio for PFE to FGE cars in a block train? The > >route of preference to the east coast for SFRD block trains seems to have > >been via the Erie, but some SFRD cars did serve the produce market at > >Pittsburgh. > > The route of preference for PFE was also Erie, according to Tony Thompson, > PFE fact guru. SFRD cars did make appearance in Pittsburgh and at other > places on the system. Usually not in solid blocks, but as small numbers of > cars with specific produce. I have seen photos of SFRD reefers in > Blatimore harbor loading bananas. > > >Did SFRD cars work to, say, Philadelphia or Baltimore over the Middle > >Division? Did non-PFE/FGE cars work as part of a block of mixed > >reefers, or as part of a merchandise train from the west coast? > > As for eastbound reefer traffic, reefers from a variety of areas with a > variety of produce for the Pittsburgh, Philly and local markets in betwixt > would have been collected at western gateways such as Chicago and St. > Louis. These would have reflected a variety of owners, in part depending > on the region that the produce came from and that in turn depended on the > season. Unlike the left coast, you would not see solid trains of one > company hauling one commodity. These would have been collected into > expedited blocks and perhaps even whole trains of reefers, however, the PRR > had a lot of trouble getting this to work (hence PFE and SFRD's preference > for the Erie). During the first half of WWII, you could see reefers and > stock cars being expedited by being added to oil trains. > > >Sorry if this sounds a bit naive. Any suggestions for other marks of > >reefer that would have worked with the SFRD cars regularly > >Pittsburgh-Enola circa 1954? > > Don't forget that reefers worked other traffic besides Left coast crops. > There was a strong Northbound traffic in Peaches. The "peach train" worked > north to Baltimore and then up the Northern Central to Harrisburg and WEST > to Pittsburgh. This was described in the Keystone a few issues back (IIRC > the T1 issue). Other traffic might include fresh mushrooms (usually in > R50Bs on passenger trains) and New Jersey crops (tomatoes etc) for > Pittsburgh. > > >Any suggestions for other marks of reefer that would have worked with the > >SFRD cars regularly Pittsburgh-Enola circa 1954? FGE Paint Scheme - I > >have some Red Caboose FGE reefers which have a built date of 1938. > > I'll not comment on Red Caboose's imagination other to say that the only > correct FGE reefers produced in HO currently are in resin (I know you are > in N - don't know the status there). IM is reportedly releasing a new HO > FGE reefer. As for your car fleet of produce reefers...it should be > dominated with FGE/WFE/BREX (mostly FGE). A minority of cars should be PFE > and an even smaller number SFRD. You can also throw in a few URTX, CNW, > GTW (NICE HO resin kit from Nowest) and even some MDT (NYC - boo hiss) > reefers. The bottom line though is that produce was not a big item for the > PRR to haul, so reefers should be small percentage of the cars on the > layout. As some have said, they treated it too much like coal! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: RE: [PRR] New TV Series Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:37:01 -0600 One thing you can say about the I-1...nice tanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- However, they have been known to be pushy!!! Pete Reinhold Elmira Branch 1950 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:33:42 -0500 Correction. It was train SP-8. CG-8 went to Greenville! -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 12:48 PM To: Bill Volkmer Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 On 11/21/02 12:46 PM, Bill Volkmer (bvolkmer@herzogcompanies.com) wrote: > So there. Aren't you glad to know that little bit of trivia? And by > the way, CG-8 always received GG-1s or E-44s at Enola. No P-5s on THAT > run! > Particularly good info for me...thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:44:53 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Bowser B6 From: Jerry Britton Listers... Bowser (http://www.bowser-trains.com/) has posted a pre-production photo of their new B-6 0-6-0 on their web site. The loco will feature a zinc die cast body, cylinder, frame, back plate, can motor with gear box. It will have all the holes drilled for the brass superdetail parts & the slope back tender from the PRR A-5. It is due out next year. There are no part numbers or prices yet, so no use in asking!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:00:40 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] New TV Series Are we overlooking the GiGi one? ------------------------------------ Jerry Britton wrote: > > On 11/21/02 11:18 AM, Gary Mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote: > > > I would end up picking Kay-4..... > > > Not gonna go for the "Hippo", huh? ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:55:28 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Bowser B6 From: Jerry Britton On 11/21/02 2:44 PM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > Bowser (http://www.bowser-trains.com/) has posted a pre-production photo of > their new B-6 0-6-0 on their web site. The loco will feature a zinc die cast > body, cylinder, frame, back plate, can motor with gear box. It will have all > the holes drilled for the brass superdetail parts & the slope back tender from > the PRR A-5. It is due out next year. > I took a quick look at the three B6 photos on Gary's page (http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com) and, overlooking possible future detail parts, find the following: * Overall look and feel of all three subclasses represented. * The model has a flat edge supporting the boiler, for a stretch just ahead of the firebox. The prototype does not show this in any of the three photos. I suspect it was required to make room for the motor. * Don't know the name of the part, but the "pipes" that angle downward from the sides of the smokehouse into the cylinders are about 60 degrees on the model. On the prototype they are nearly vertical. The photo of #7566 doesn't appear to have this feature at all. Overall, looking pretty decent! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Frank & Andrea Amato" Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:59:09 GMT Subject: [PRR] Watsontown circa 1959 Listvolk! I continue to refine my N scale layout plan, and need some help finalizing my 1959-era version of Watsontown. I found the Berwick branch track chart (1962) on KC.com - it shows 4 tracks on the Buffalo line where the branch diverges. I also have the 1945 CTC-1000 that documents what industries existed. What I *can't* find is a chart of the mainline track, sidings, etc. I plan to have the Berwick branch disappear behind the backdrop at Watsontown, and also have some industries for local switching... Thanks in advance, Frank ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:45:22 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Bowser B6 Jerry sez: >I took a quick look at the three B6 photos on Gary's page >(http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com) and, overlooking possible future detail >parts, find the following: > >* Overall look and feel of all three subclasses represented. Well, not quite! The three subclasses are: B6s B6sa - note that these have radial stay fireboxes, not belpaire, so the Bowser model is definitely NOT suitable here B6sb >* The model has a flat edge supporting the boiler, for a stretch just ahead >of the firebox. The prototype does not show this in any of the three photos. >I suspect it was required to make room for the motor. > >* Don't know the name of the part, but the "pipes" that angle downward from >the sides of the smokehouse into the cylinders are about 60 degrees on the >model. On the prototype they are nearly vertical. The photo of #7566 doesn't >appear to have this feature at all. These are the steam pipes, #7566 is a B6s, and the B6s, like the H8 had internal steam pipes. The added angle is almost certainly due to the need to the use of a non scale wheel. The wheel moves the rods out, making it necessary to move the cylinders out. I notice reason for encouragement and disappointment in the sample...did anyone else note that the model has a CAN MOTOR and GEAR BOX?!!! On the down side, the thickness of the cab and the crude windows just won't stand the light of day next to the current plastic steamers...this is one area where metal just can't compete, and what is that thing on top of the cab supposed to be, a hatch? Likewise, those slabs of metal along the boiler that purport to be walkways. Finally, I'm pretty sure that the area behind the rear driver all the way to the back of the loco just doesn't look like THAT (another big ole hunk o'metal)! The bottom line is that this is classic Bowser with a few upgrades...certainly not state-of-the-art :^( Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:45:51 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 From: "Douglas Nelson" > This sent me scurrying for "red Swift reefers" in N scale. No such luck. Jerry: Micro Trains made the red Swift reefer in N Scale some time ago and should not be too hard to find. Also, I believe that Brooklyn Locomotive Works (BLWNscale.com) had them made by Intermountain. Doug. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:06:19 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Re: New TV series From: John Sheets RE: > What if they took an SPF and sat him in front of 25 locomotives. After a > week he'd kick 10 of them off the show; down to 15. And so on and so forth > until, after six weeks, he had to choose his favorite locomotive > What if they took an SPF and sat him in front of 25 locomotives. After a > week he'd kick 10 of them off the show; down to 15. And so on and so forth > until, after six weeks, he had to choose his favorite locomotive >GiGi > Not gonna go for the "Hippo", huh? ;-) Come on now, ya gotta love a gal that's in it for the long haul. > > Pass on the "Mikes" too. > > *groan* >nice tanks You guys have entirely too much free time !!! John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:05:44 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Bowser B6 Jerry, They are called "steam delivery pipes" and they deliver the steam to the cylinders. 7566 apparently has inside steam delivery pipes. That is, they are cast into the cylinder saddle. The M1a has this feature also. That is one of the features which distinguish it from an M1. I don't know if that was a difference between the B6s and later subclasses or if 7566 is a one-off experiment. The frame of the prototype is fabricated from steel angles and bars and has hollow spaces which don't appear on the after portion of the frame extension under the cab in the model. Also the frame extension under the cab on the prototype is tapered upward on the bottom. Perhaps the production model will capture this taper. I suspect that the slope of the steam delivery pipes is due to the thicker tread width of HO model wheels and the heavier side rod and valve gear on the model. This pushes the main rod further outboard than it would be on the prototype and was compensated for by Bowser by spreading the cylinders further apart causing the angle on the steam delivery pipes - just a guess. One solution to alleviate this problem is to make the drivers code 88 rather than code 110. This is becoming an increasingly popular feature in freight and passenger car car wheel sets. I hope Bowser considers it. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > On 11/21/02 2:44 PM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > > > Bowser (http://www.bowser-trains.com/) has posted a pre-production photo of > > their new B-6 0-6-0 on their web site. The loco will feature a zinc die cast > > body, cylinder, frame, back plate, can motor with gear box. It will have all > > the holes drilled for the brass superdetail parts & the slope back tender from > > the PRR A-5. It is due out next year. > > > I took a quick look at the three B6 photos on Gary's page > (http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com) and, overlooking possible future detail > parts, find the following: > > * Overall look and feel of all three subclasses represented. > > * The model has a flat edge supporting the boiler, for a stretch just ahead > of the firebox. The prototype does not show this in any of the three photos. > I suspect it was required to make room for the motor. > > * Don't know the name of the part, but the "pipes" that angle downward from > the sides of the smokehouse into the cylinders are about 60 degrees on the > model. On the prototype they are nearly vertical. The photo of #7566 doesn't > appear to have this feature at all. > > Overall, looking pretty decent! > ----------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser B6 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:05:44 -0600 Jerry & List, I'm sure the folks at Bowser have thought about leaving room for a decoder if they are going to be using a can motor. Have they also thought about room for a sound decoder too. Room to mount a sound cam on an axel? Should be able to fit a speaker in the tender with room to spare. I'll always give up a little weight for sound. Thanks for the heads up Jerry. Pete Reinhold Excitable Boy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: New TV series Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:17:17 +0000 Well this is one time if you want to play the game go ahead. I think I'll play the field and have them all. > RE: > > > What if they took an SPF and sat him in front of 25 locomotives. After a > > week he'd kick 10 of them off the show; down to 15. And so on and so forth > > until, after six weeks, he had to choose his favorite locomotive > > > What if they took an SPF and sat him in front of 25 locomotives. After a > > week he'd kick 10 of them off the show; down to 15. And so on and so forth > > until, after six weeks, he had to choose his favorite locomotive > > >GiGi > > > Not gonna go for the "Hippo", huh? ;-) Come on now, ya gotta love a gal > that's in it for the long haul. > > > > > Pass on the "Mikes" too. > > > > *groan* > > >nice tanks > > You guys have entirely too much free time !!! > > John > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: New TV series Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:29:21 -0500 So what's "an SPF?" -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of John Sheets Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 4:06 PM To: PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] Re: New TV series RE: > What if they took an SPF and sat him in front of 25 locomotives. After a > week he'd kick 10 of them off the show; down to 15. And so on and so forth > until, after six weeks, he had to choose his favorite locomotive > What if they took an SPF and sat him in front of 25 locomotives. After a > week he'd kick 10 of them off the show; down to 15. And so on and so forth > until, after six weeks, he had to choose his favorite locomotive >GiGi > Not gonna go for the "Hippo", huh? ;-) Come on now, ya gotta love a gal that's in it for the long haul. > > Pass on the "Mikes" too. > > *groan* >nice tanks You guys have entirely too much free time !!! John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:21:52 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: New TV series Jerry/all: Can we vote all the NS locomotives off the island??? I believe they are the weakest link. ;-) Jeff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:18:22 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Watsontown circa 1959 On Thu, 21 Nov 2002, Frank & Andrea Amato wrote: > > Listvolk! > > I continue to refine my N scale layout plan, and need some help > finalizing my 1959-era version of Watsontown. > > I found the Berwick branch track chart (1962) on KC.com - it shows 4 tracks > on the Buffalo line where the branch diverges. I also have the 1945 CTC-1000 > that documents what industries existed. There's a 1937 chart at http://prr.dementia.org/documents/bellefonte_br_tc_1937.pdf by the way > What I *can't* find is a chart of the mainline track, sidings, etc. I know I have one, I see I haven't scanned it yet. I actually have a pile of stuff scanned and not uploaded yet. I should do something about it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] New TV Series Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:35:19 -0500 What about the girl in the "G" string? Larry ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Cupper To: Jerry Britton Cc: Gary Mittner ; PRR-Talk LIST Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 3:00 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] New TV Series > Are we overlooking the GiGi one? > > ------------------------------------ > Jerry Britton wrote: > > > > On 11/21/02 11:18 AM, Gary Mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote: > > > > > I would end up picking Kay-4..... > > > > > Not gonna go for the "Hippo", huh? ;-) > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:36:22 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: New TV series Bill V. asked what is a SPF = Southern Pacific Fan ;^) Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:51:42 -0500 From: Nick Kulp Subject: Re: [PRR] New TV Series --=====================_7990698==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Listers, I am truly shocked and appalled by this affrontary. All of these inuendos, really !!! All you can think about is the "Bachelor" When a truly educational program was on CBS. I like the skirting on those streamliners much better than "Mikes" After it was over there were really no more "secrets" left. I think the wings came from a UP cab unit though but the headlights were definitely on high-beam. Sorry, I couldn't resist. When a guy is forced to watch a show like the bachelor, the wife should at least permit him to tape the other show. Nick --=====================_7990698==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Listers,

I am truly shocked and appalled by this affrontary. All of these inuendos, really !!! All you can think about is the "Bachelor" When a truly educational program was on CBS. I like the skirting on those streamliners much better than "Mikes" After it was over there were really no more "secrets" left. I think the wings came from a UP cab unit though but the headlights were definitely on high-beam.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. When a guy is forced to watch a show like the bachelor, the wife should at least permit him to tape the other show.

Nick --=====================_7990698==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Bowser B6 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:50:44 +0000 Bruce wrote: >I notice reason for encouragement and disappointment in the sample...did >anyone else note that the model has a CAN MOTOR and GEAR BOX?!!! On the >down side, the thickness of the cab and the crude windows just won't stand >the light of day next to the current plastic steamers...this is one area >where metal just can't compete, and what is that thing on top of the cab >supposed to be, a hatch? Likewise, those slabs of metal along the boiler >that purport to be walkways. Finally, I'm pretty sure that the area behind >the rear driver all the way to the back of the loco just doesn't look like >THAT (another big ole hunk o'metal)! The bottom line is that this is >classic Bowser with a few upgrades...certainly not state-of-the-art :^( I quite agree. I HUGE improvement that Bowser should have done was to have a while metal boiler THEN proved a entire cab, walkways, and tender shell in plastic. These would, like thier rolling stock, would have delicate detail that would rival brass. The impovements of the plastic tender shell would also be a push to DCC and sound systems. The combination of a metal boiler, brass chassis, lost wax parts AND plastic parts to enhance detail is the way to go. I wish that Bowser did that on the B6. Still, I will buy one. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] New TV Series Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:01:01 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0093_01C2917F.91B7A140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nick: I think we're ALL sick! Larry ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Nick Kulp=20 To: PRR-Talk=20 Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 4:51 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] New TV Series Listers, I am truly shocked and appalled by this affrontary. All of these = inuendos, really !!! All you can think about is the "Bachelor" When a = truly educational program was on CBS. I like the skirting on those = streamliners much better than "Mikes" After it was over there were = really no more "secrets" left. I think the wings came from a UP cab unit = though but the headlights were definitely on high-beam. Sorry, I couldn't resist. When a guy is forced to watch a show like = the bachelor, the wife should at least permit him to tape the other = show. Nick=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0093_01C2917F.91B7A140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nick:
 
I think we're ALL = sick!
 
Larry
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Nick=20 Kulp
Sent: Thursday, November 21, = 2002 4:51=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] New TV = Series

Listers,

I am truly = shocked and=20 appalled by this affrontary. All of these inuendos, really !!! All you = can=20 think about is the "Bachelor" When a truly educational program was on = CBS. I=20 like the skirting on those streamliners much better than "Mikes" After = it was=20 over there were really no more "secrets" left. I think the wings came = from a=20 UP cab unit though but the headlights were definitely on=20 high-beam.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. When a guy is forced to = watch a=20 show like the bachelor, the wife should at least permit him to tape = the other=20 show.

Nick ------=_NextPart_000_0093_01C2917F.91B7A140-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Phil Paskos" Subject: Re: [PRR] [Fwd: [soundtraxx] Re: Baldwins & Fairbanks Morse] Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:59:24 -0500 Hopefully they mean it this time. They made that same promise over 2 years ago. Phil > I assume those trainmasters are SP because they will be the easiest to repaint > DGLE. N Bell > > All: > > > > I know that, usually, cross posts are frowned upon, but... > > > > This was posted on the Soundtraxx list and it should be of great > > interest to all of us PRR folks with C-liners and Erie Builts... > > > > Yesterday, I e-mailed soundtraxx asking if they had any plans to add > > Fairbanks Morse to their line of sound decoders. Today I received a > > response stating that Fairbanks Morse will be added to the product > > line sometime during the first quarter of 2003. > > > > Santa's bringing me two S scale FM SP Blackwidow trainmasters so I > > told soundtraxx to put me on the list for two units -- YEAH! > > > > John Gibson > > Rocklin, CA > > > > > > > > posted to PRR Talk by Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] New TV Series Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:29:28 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C2917B.29991B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Like the Victoria Secrets show? ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Nick Kulp=20 To: PRR-Talk=20 Sent: Thursday, 21 November, 2002 03:51 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] New TV Series Listers, I am truly shocked and appalled by this affrontary. All of these = inuendos, really !!! All you can think about is the "Bachelor" When a = truly educational program was on CBS. I like the skirting on those = streamliners much better than "Mikes" After it was over there were = really no more "secrets" left. I think the wings came from a UP cab unit = though but the headlights were definitely on high-beam. Sorry, I couldn't resist. When a guy is forced to watch a show like = the bachelor, the wife should at least permit him to tape the other = show. Nick ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C2917B.29991B60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Like the Victoria Secrets = show?
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Nick=20 Kulp
Sent: Thursday, 21 November, = 2002 03:51=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] New TV = Series

Listers,

I am truly = shocked and=20 appalled by this affrontary. All of these inuendos, really !!! All you = can=20 think about is the "Bachelor" When a truly educational program was on = CBS. I=20 like the skirting on those streamliners much better than "Mikes" After = it was=20 over there were really no more "secrets" left. I think the wings came = from a=20 UP cab unit though but the headlights were definitely on=20 high-beam.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. When a guy is forced to = watch a=20 show like the bachelor, the wife should at least permit him to tape = the other=20 show.

Nick ------=_NextPart_000_0052_01C2917B.29991B60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] New TV Series Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:46:47 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C29185.F71631E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable O.K., PRR now stands for Pun Riddled Railfans. Louis Rukeyser nor Bennett Cerf youse gize ain't!!! Boo....Hiss....... Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Larry Reynolds=20 To: PRR-Talk ; Nick Kulp=20 Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] New TV Series Nick: I think we're ALL sick! Larry ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Nick Kulp=20 To: PRR-Talk=20 Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 4:51 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] New TV Series Listers, I am truly shocked and appalled by this affrontary. All of these = inuendos, really !!! All you can think about is the "Bachelor" When a = truly educational program was on CBS. I like the skirting on those = streamliners much better than "Mikes" After it was over there were = really no more "secrets" left. I think the wings came from a UP cab unit = though but the headlights were definitely on high-beam. Sorry, I couldn't resist. When a guy is forced to watch a show like = the bachelor, the wife should at least permit him to tape the other = show. Nick=20 ------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C29185.F71631E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
O.K.,
 
PRR now stands for Pun Riddled = Railfans.
 
Louis Rukeyser nor Bennett Cerf youse gize=20 ain't!!!
 
Boo....Hiss.......
 
Gregg Mahlkov
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Larry = Reynolds=20
To: PRR-Talk ; Nick=20 Kulp
Sent: Thursday, November 21, = 2002 5:01=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] New TV = Series

Nick:
 
I think we're ALL = sick!
 
Larry
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Nick Kulp
Sent: Thursday, November 21, = 2002 4:51=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] New TV = Series

Listers,

I am = truly shocked=20 and appalled by this affrontary. All of these inuendos, really !!! = All you=20 can think about is the "Bachelor" When a truly educational program = was on=20 CBS. I like the skirting on those streamliners much better than = "Mikes"=20 After it was over there were really no more "secrets" left. I think = the=20 wings came from a UP cab unit though but the headlights were = definitely on=20 high-beam.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. When a guy is forced to = watch a=20 show like the bachelor, the wife should at least permit him to tape = the=20 other show.

Nick =
------=_NextPart_000_002D_01C29185.F71631E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 23:24:18 +0000 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: New TV series John Sheets wrote:
RE:



  
What if they took an SPF and sat him in front of 25 locomotives. After a

week he'd kick 10 of them off the show; down to 15. And so on and so forth

until, after six weeks, he had to choose his favorite locomotive

    


  
What if they took an SPF and sat him in front of 25 locomotives. After a

week he'd kick 10 of them off the show; down to 15. And so on and so forth

until, after six weeks, he had to choose his favorite locomotive

    


  
GiGi

    


  
Not gonna go for the "Hippo", huh?  ;-)  Come on now, ya gotta love a gal

    
that's in it for the long haul.



  
Pass on the "Mikes" too.



*groan*

    


  
nice tanks

    


You guys have entirely too much free time !!!
A certain US radio station which shall be nameless tells me that the programme some of you folks should really be watching is 'Victoria's Secrets' ......   my pure and innocent mind tells me that  has got to be about the fascinating working practices of one of London's best loved stations :-)    


-- 

Regards,

John H. Wright

Washington, England

Web sites at:   http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ 

                http://www.xclent.clara.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Bowser B6 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:12:00 -0700 I was going through my copy of Pennsy Power III and was suprised to see a photo of B6sb 1661 which also appears to be equipped with inside delivery pipes. Most B6sb's did have the outside delivery (and the last 5 delivered had outside slanting cylinders). In addition perusal of the book showed that 7136, 7540, and 7969 were also equipped with inside steam delivery. In Don Ball's color book apparently 4001 also has inside delivery (but a better shot is Pennsy Steam A to T (second edition) definately shows the 4001 as having the outside pipes (curiouser and courioser...) A clue might be that the locomotive without the outside pipes in Carlton's book is classed as class B6s. It might be that these locomotives were converted to superheated from saturated (called "soakers" on some roads) hence the inside delivery. But I really don't know for sure. I don't know the ins and outs of shifter nomenclature...anyone out there know what subclass "b" stood for (I do know that subclass "a" was a radial equipped firebox). Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Bowser B6 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:12:50 -0700 Oh, one more item...remember this is a pre-production model. It may well be equipped with the cylinder saddle from a A5s model for photo purposes. Hence the extreme slant of the delivery pipes. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Bowser B6 Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:20:39 -0700 Bruce, and all Maybe someone out there could prevail on Bowser to alter their models to plastic cabs and tenders...I agree that this is the achilles heel of Bowser's models. But, then I shouldn't complain too loudly...if I were a (say) NYC modeler I would be up fecal creek with out a manual propelsive device when it comes to modeling steam. Let alone diesel (and yes, the Genesis NYC F3's are very nice) At least we PRR types have most major classes avialable as relatively decent models, always available (of course, the Bowser E6s/H9s is the exception...these particular kits have an ancestry that is older than I am!) I for one will be getting some B6sb's...(anyone want a fairly decent Am Flyer B6sb lettered for Erie? Cheap?) And Bruce, the lateset run of the A5s does also come with a can motor (but mine is a little older, and I have the Alliance drive for it!) Now all I need is some ambition to do these up. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 22:02:40 -0500 Subject: [PRR] F30d / ORER Lookup Needed From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" In 1954, the PRR modified a number of F30 flats to F30d for the initial TrucTrain service. Can someone do a lookup in an ORER after 6/54 and tell me how many cars were converted and, if possible, what road numbers? Also, these cars were transferred, along with the F39's, to TTX when it was formed. Anyone know when that was? Thanks! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 22:14:50 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Differences between B6 subclasses Bill, list, I'm doing this from memory; listmembers, please help out if I confuse any dates or numbers. In the beginning, there was the B6, first built in 1902 with a Belpaire firebox, about 41 feet of grate area, piston valves, and Stephenson valve gear. B6s engines got supeheaters (I think two remained saturated until retirement, but I'm away from my reference material), but retained inside steam pipes and the Stephenson valve gear. I have not heard of any B6s to B6sb conversions (at least they don't show up in Edson's PRR All-time Steam Roster), but I have learned the hard way to avoid blanket statements with the PRR...grin! In 1913, the B6sa appeared with a radial stay firebox, about 61 feet of grate area, piston valves, superheated as built, and with Walschaerts valve gear. In 1916, the B6sb arrived with a Belpaire firebox, about 61 square feet of grate area, and Walschaerts valve gear. Around 1924, the cylinder slant on the B6sb was changed and the large cab (similar to H9s, E6s, etc) was changed to one that was similar to a K4s/L1s/I1sa cab (8 feet long for the older cabs, about 6 feet long for the small steel cabs). Doug --- billd@gci-net.com wrote, in part: > ...anyone out > there know what subclass "b" stood for (I do know > that > subclass "a" was a radial equipped firebox). > __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:30:18 EST Subject: [PRR] FGEX from the south -- I overrepresent FGEX for effect --part1_2b.31a1c147.2b0f7d5a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/20/02 11:11:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > You touched on southern trains but what was the car of choice for say the > orange and grapefruit traffic out of Florida as well as onions out of > Georgia? > What about other centers of produce in the south? Thanks, Norm Bell > Hi Norm, Since ACL, SAL, L&N, and Southern were all members/co-owners of FGE, I think the answer has to be FGEX. Basically nobody else operated fruit/vegetable reefers in the south. Apart from that, I choose to model with the rule of thumb that a PRR layout can't have too many Fruit Growers Express cars. I conciously exclude WFEX and Burlington reefers, simply because what I saw delivering loads in my part of the world (Ohio) was straight FGEX. BTW, I believe I was still seeing FGEX ice reefers under load as late as 1974 -- which is pretty darn late for a nonmechanical reefer. In fact, I was still seeing a few FGEX woodies almost that late, but only in midsummer. Amazing! Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_2b.31a1c147.2b0f7d5a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/20/02 11:11:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


You touched on southern trains but what was the car of choice for say the
orange and grapefruit traffic out of Florida as well as onions out of Georgia? 
What about other centers of produce in the south?  Thanks, Norm Bell


Hi Norm,

Since ACL, SAL, L&N, and Southern were all members/co-owners of FGE, I think the answer has to be FGEX.  Basically nobody else operated fruit/vegetable reefers in the south.

Apart from that, I choose to model with the rule of thumb that a PRR layout can't have too many Fruit Growers Express cars.  I conciously exclude WFEX and Burlington reefers, simply because what I saw delivering loads in my part of the world (Ohio) was straight FGEX.  BTW, I believe I was still seeing FGEX ice reefers under load as late as 1974 -- which is pretty darn late for a nonmechanical reefer.  In fact, I was still seeing a few  FGEX woodies almost that late, but only in midsummer.  Amazing!

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_2b.31a1c147.2b0f7d5a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:30:17 EST Subject: [PRR] FGE-built RBL's (two black stripes) aren't reefers --part1_15.2cbcdec.2b0f7d59_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/20/02 7:17:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Martin mentions the FGE cars with the two black stripes. These are NOT > refrigerator cars, but insulated boxcars that when in Fruit Growers marks, > went by RBNX. > > Gregg Mahlkov > I could be wrong, but so far my exposure to photos tells me the black band cars are not FGE reefers. I've got plenty of photo index evidence that standard FGE paint from 1952 or before applied to the reefers is a yellow car with red ends. The lettering is black and in a readily recognizable FGE standard typeface, without striping on the sides. Normally, the lettering on the right end says "Refrigerator". FGE cars back to at least 1929 were similar, but some did not say "Fruit Growers Express" above the reporting marks. Basically, the "1938" scheme cited is good for as long as ice reefers lasted. As Greg points out, the two black stripes on a yellow car is an FGE-built (Alexandria VA shop?) insulated box car. These RBL's ("bunkerless refrigerators" with loader equipment for cartoned groceries etc.) from FGE appeared around 1962. FGE operated some in the RBNX reporting mark, but provided (leased?) the same car to many of its members, including PRR, B&O, L& N, and Southern. Thus, the PRR had RBL cars (in 40' and 50') painted in this scheme, but with PRR reporting marks. Note that the PRR cars had their reporting marks in a roman similar to phase SK2a, not in the lettering style of PK cars then being painted at Altoona. However, other roads (L&N and Southern for sure) carried a version of their particular contemporary typeface (e.g. L&N in standard bold italic, and Southern spelled out in its squared gothic). After merger, PC cars might be seen with the slanted PC. A detail to watch for in pix of these cars is that the 1963 scheme had "Fruit Growers Express" on the left between the lines, typically with "Insulated" between them on the right. In 1964, "Fruit Growers Express" moved to the right, and had the legend "For Greatest Efficiency" echeloned below it. This scheme apparently lasted to 1972, when the stripes and red ends were dropped in favor of a cheaper all-yellow. Another fun thing to watch is that the two black lines did not extend under the ladder on the right end of the carside. A couple of us modelers drove Rich Meyer (Champion Decals) absolutely crazy at NMRA conventions back in the 70's until he issued the decal set for this two-stripe car in self defense. I'll let someone else explain the blue and white variant of the two-stripe scheme that was peculiar to the N&W starting in about 1964 (contemporary with their merger and adoption of the "moon" or "hamburger" logo). Hope this helps... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_15.2cbcdec.2b0f7d59_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/20/02 7:17:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Martin mentions the FGE cars with the two black stripes. These are NOT
refrigerator cars, but insulated boxcars that when in Fruit Growers marks,
went by RBNX.

Gregg Mahlkov


I could be wrong, but so far my exposure to photos tells me the black band cars are not FGE reefers.  I've got plenty of photo index evidence that standard FGE paint from 1952 or before applied to the reefers is a yellow car with red ends.  The lettering is black and in a readily recognizable FGE standard typeface, without striping on the sides.  Normally, the lettering on the right end says "Refrigerator".  FGE cars back to at least 1929 were similar, but some did not say "Fruit Growers Express" above the reporting marks.  Basically, the "1938" scheme cited is good for as long as ice reefers lasted.

As Greg points out, the two black stripes on a yellow car is an FGE-built  (Alexandria VA shop?) insulated box car.  These RBL's ("bunkerless refrigerators" with loader equipment for cartoned groceries etc.) from FGE appeared around 1962.  FGE operated some in the RBNX reporting mark, but provided (leased?) the same car to many of its members, including PRR, B&O, L&N, and Southern.  Thus, the PRR had RBL cars (in 40' and 50') painted in this scheme, but with PRR reporting marks.

Note that the PRR cars had their reporting marks in a roman similar to phase SK2a, not in the lettering style of PK cars then being painted at Altoona.  However, other roads (L&N and Southern for sure) carried a version of their particular contemporary typeface (e.g. L&N in standard bold italic, and Southern spelled out in its squared gothic).  After merger, PC cars might be seen with the slanted PC.

A detail to watch for in pix of these cars is that the 1963 scheme had "Fruit Growers Express" on the left between the lines, typically with "Insulated" between them on the right.  In 1964, "Fruit Growers Express" moved to the right, and had the legend "For Greatest Efficiency" echeloned below it.  This scheme apparently lasted to 1972, when the stripes and red ends were dropped in favor of a cheaper all-yellow. 

Another fun thing to watch is that the two black lines did not extend under the ladder on the right end of the carside.

A couple of us modelers drove Rich Meyer (Champion Decals) absolutely crazy at NMRA conventions back in the 70's until he issued the decal set for this two-stripe car in self defense.  I'll let someone else explain the blue and white variant of the two-stripe scheme that was peculiar to the N&W starting in about 1964 (contemporary with their merger and adoption of the "moon" or "hamburger" logo).

Hope this helps...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_15.2cbcdec.2b0f7d59_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 07:30:19 EST Subject: [PRR] Buffalo Boxcar --part1_c.2ca96f8.2b0f7d5b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/19/02 5:54:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > By the way, I have another question for the group. Alvin Staufer in his book > Pennsy Power refers to the Buffalo Boxcar in the section on the M's. What > is he referring to? > > Phil > IIRC, this is the nickname of a daily merchandise freight dispatched out of Enola Yard for Buffalo (Ebeneezer?). It probably got more than its fair share of photography, probably because of a daylight departure and scenic opportunities on the Rockville Bridge and up the east bank of the Susquehanna (paralleled by a road for miles if memory serves). Anyway, its schedule drew an M1. Perhaps another lister remembers its symbol. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_c.2ca96f8.2b0f7d5b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/19/02 5:54:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


By the way, I have another question for the group. Alvin Staufer in his book
Pennsy Power refers to the Buffalo Boxcar in the section on  the M's.  What
is he referring to?

Phil


IIRC, this is the nickname of a daily merchandise freight dispatched out of Enola Yard for Buffalo (Ebeneezer?).  It probably got more than its fair share of photography, probably because of a daylight departure and scenic opportunities on the Rockville Bridge and up the east bank of the Susquehanna (paralleled by a road for miles if memory serves).  Anyway, its schedule drew an M1.  Perhaps another lister remembers its symbol.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_c.2ca96f8.2b0f7d5b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:29:47 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] FGE-built RBL's (two black stripes) aren't reefers From: Jerry Britton On 11/22/02 7:30 AM, RickTipton@aol.com (RickTipton@aol.com) wrote: > I could be wrong, but so far my exposure to photos tells me the black band > cars are not FGE reefers. I've got plenty of photo index evidence that > standard FGE paint from 1952 or before applied to the reefers is a yellow car > with red ends. What was the paint scheme after 1952...like 1954? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:30:39 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] FGE-built RBL's (two black stripes) RickTipton@aol.com wrote: (in part) > . . . > As Greg points out, the two black stripes on a yellow car is an FGE-built > (Alexandria VA shop?) insulated box car. These RBL's ("bunkerless > refrigerators" with loader equipment for cartoned groceries etc.) from FGE > appeared around 1962. -- I could swear I saw a color photo on a Cedco PRR Calendar several years ago showing a J1 pulling a train headed by a pair of RBNX 40' cars with black stripes on a yellow car. Were there still J's in 1962! My guess is that that photo was taken much earlier and that these cars were therefore first delivered in the mid 50s Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:52:22 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Mail Server Issue From: Jerry Britton Listers... My mail/dns server is being "testy" today. It was slowing down yesterday and I rebooted it this morning, around 6:30 a.m. A short time later it locked up. We've rebooted and it locked up again after a short time. This cycle has repeated several times. A side note: while it is up, it is postmarking messages for 1956. Trying to change the date instigates a lock up. This evening I will be taking the server offline for 30-90 minutes to check cables, reinstall the o/s, or move the installation to a standby machine. So don't be alarmed if you can't get through...we will be back!!! On a good note: Even with the lockups and down time, messages are still getting through faster than Yahoo!!! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:04:56 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR Books vs. Models From: Jerry Britton I was looking ahead to what is coming in PRR over the next few months. Aside from BLI's announcements and the Walthers R50b's, not much! Seems like there is a bit of a PRR model drought! On the flip side, the past two months have seen the release of SEVEN PRR BOOKS!!! They are: Triumph V (Roberts) Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Vol. 7 (Withers) Pennsy Diesels 1924-1968: A-6 to EF-36 (Hundman) Pennsylvania Railroad Color Pictorial - Volume Three (Sweetland, Four Ways West) Trackside on the Pennsylvania: Standard Plans of the Standard Railroad of the World: Structures, Bridges, Signals and Signs (Scherb, Highlands Station) Philip R. Hastings: Portrait of the Pennsylvania Railroad (Nelson Pine Tree Press) Pennsylvania Railroad Under Wires (Middleton, Kalmbach) Doug Nelson's "Hastings" book is clearly the standout. But boy have there been a lot of releases lately! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rdhess10@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:05:34 EST Subject: [PRR] Shark Numberboards --part1_108.1b568ebf.2b0fa1be_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, I'm building an HO A-B set of PRR sharks with Hobbytown drives and Mantua metal shells. Does anyone know where I can find numberboards for the A unit? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Bob Hess --part1_108.1b568ebf.2b0fa1be_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List,      
      I'm building an HO A-B set of PRR sharks with Hobbytown drives and Mantua metal shells.  Does anyone know where I can find numberboards for the A unit?
      Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks in advance.

Bob Hess

--part1_108.1b568ebf.2b0fa1be_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] Re: Differences between B6 subclasses Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 08:16:53 -0700 Sounds good to me, Doug. I just didn't dig out my copy of Edson since I was looking for photos. I know that the idea of the B6sa has been addressed before (I speculated that these were built with radial stay fireboxes since they were intended for use with "belt line" roads (like Washington Terminal) where shop forces might not be familiar with Belpaire fireboxes.) I must not have been paying attention to the cab changes(the small cab was a more modern steel design) and the change of cylinder slant also went over my head (I know that the last 5 A5s had the new slant). Guess I'm going to have to pay more attention to photos of shifters! Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Books vs. Models Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:26:17 -0500 The SPF's just "can't get enough of it?" -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 10:05 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] PRR Books vs. Models I was looking ahead to what is coming in PRR over the next few months. Aside from BLI's announcements and the Walthers R50b's, not much! Seems like there is a bit of a PRR model drought! On the flip side, the past two months have seen the release of SEVEN PRR BOOKS!!! They are: Triumph V (Roberts) Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Vol. 7 (Withers) Pennsy Diesels 1924-1968: A-6 to EF-36 (Hundman) Pennsylvania Railroad Color Pictorial - Volume Three (Sweetland, Four Ways West) Trackside on the Pennsylvania: Standard Plans of the Standard Railroad of the World: Structures, Bridges, Signals and Signs (Scherb, Highlands Station) Philip R. Hastings: Portrait of the Pennsylvania Railroad (Nelson Pine Tree Press) Pennsylvania Railroad Under Wires (Middleton, Kalmbach) Doug Nelson's "Hastings" book is clearly the standout. But boy have there been a lot of releases lately! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 10:52:09 -0500 Subject: FW: [PRR] 6th Annual Modeling Needs Survey! -- From: Jerry Britton Five and a half more hours to get your surveys in... Thanks to all who have participated thus far! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ------ Forwarded Message > From: Jerry Britton > Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 11:19:15 -0500 > To: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: [PRR] 6th Annual Modeling Needs Survey! -- > > Time for the 6th Annual "Keystone Crossings/PRR-Talk" Modeling Needs Survey! > > I will summarize the results to the list as well as to several dozen model > manufacturers. Every year some of our highest requests show up within the > next 24 months. > > Please participate by listing up to three PRR products that you would like > to see produced in each of the categories listed. Only the first three in > each category will be considered; others will be discarded. > > Please try to be specific with the PRR class. If you are looking for mass > quantities, indicate that as well. Please DO NOT include models of classes > that have already been announced for production. > > Respond by replying to this message, but send it to me only (not to the > list) at "jerry@pennsyrr.com" and send by Friday, November 22, 4:30 p.m. > > When submitting, please APPEND the subject line with your scale. > > Thank you! > > (You can view last year's results at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/Forms/email/*ws4d-db-query-Show.ws4d?*ws4d-db-query-S > how***MJL-BAJ-157160159158163159-1460***-Email_Archive***-***email(directory > )***.ws4d?email/results(R).html , just make sure you remove any line breaks > if you copy/paste it into your browser.) > > Thank you! > > YOUR SCALE: > > STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: > > > > ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: > > > > DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: > > > > FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: > > > > NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: > > > > PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: > > > > STRUCTURES DESIRED: > > > > OTHER DESIRED: > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------ End of Forwarded Message ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 11:01:48 -0500 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser B6 Folks, I took a gander at Bowser's website, and was pleased to see the photo they've posted on their new kit. Guess that answers my question regarding the status of this model. I don't think it looks too bad, considering the model is in the pre-production stage. Course, I go back to the Penn Line days and may have less fastidious/demanding/dainty tastes than some, but I certainly plan to add one to the roster. The can motor's a new one on me, as regards Bowser kits, but it might be a nice touch. To be truthful, I've always had excellent slow-speed results using the old DC-series open frames with pulse power, so if the performance actually gets even better, this should be a real sweet yard goat. This looks promising. Regards folks, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser B6 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:27:39 -0000 I have just had a chance to look at the photo on the web page and I feel that even at 3' range the cab walls are too thick, however I will probably buy one and then contact an etched brass company in northern England to do me a better cab PS is anyone going to the model railway show at the NEC in Birmingham (UK) next weekend? Patrick Grace www.prr.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 06:13:41 -0500 From: Zak Subject: [PRR] Roco curved N scale switches This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_WhHW1SlsyQvsZU+jtpcKhQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Hi, all. I'm considering bidding on a pair of Roco switches on eBay - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19127&item=1790152770 - and when I look at them, for some reason I think something is wrong with them. I'm not familiar with the Roco brand, or curved switches. If any of you more knowledgeable persons could take a quick peek at them and give me a "heads up" yay or nay, I really would appreciate it. Thanks in advance. Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." --Boundary_(ID_WhHW1SlsyQvsZU+jtpcKhQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Hi, all.
 
I'm considering bidding on a pair of Roco switches on eBay - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19127&item=1790152770 - and when I look at them, for some reason I think something is wrong with them.
 
I'm not familiar with the Roco brand, or curved switches.  If any of you more knowledgeable persons could take a quick peek at them and give me a "heads up" yay or nay, I really would appreciate it.
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail."
 
--Boundary_(ID_WhHW1SlsyQvsZU+jtpcKhQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:28:36 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TrucTrain Trailers From: Jerry Britton Anyone know (or have) a source of roster information for TrucTrain trailers? Though I am interested in the 26-28' versions that were around in 1954, I think it would be worthwhile to put all the info on Keystone Crossings if it is available somewhere. Also, anyone know who the manufacturer of the many trailers were? Are any of them "popular"/"standard" trailers that were common elsewhere? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Books vs. Models Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:50:34 -0500 Jerry: You've got to be kidding. The R50b is a deluge all by itself! Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 10:04 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR Books vs. Models > I was looking ahead to what is coming in PRR over the next few months. Aside > from BLI's announcements and the Walthers R50b's, not much! Seems like there > is a bit of a PRR model drought! > > On the flip side, the past two months have seen the release of SEVEN PRR > BOOKS!!! > > They are: > Triumph V (Roberts) > Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Vol. 7 (Withers) > Pennsy Diesels 1924-1968: A-6 to EF-36 (Hundman) > Pennsylvania Railroad Color Pictorial - Volume Three (Sweetland, > Four Ways West) > Trackside on the Pennsylvania: Standard Plans of the Standard Railroad > of the World: Structures, Bridges, Signals and Signs (Scherb, > Highlands Station) > Philip R. Hastings: Portrait of the Pennsylvania Railroad (Nelson > Pine Tree Press) > Pennsylvania Railroad Under Wires (Middleton, Kalmbach) > > Doug Nelson's "Hastings" book is clearly the standout. But boy have there > been a lot of releases lately! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] TrucTrain Trailers Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 12:21:30 -0600 Jerry, To answer your two most recent questions, you need to get a copy of the August 1992 Keystone (Vol 25 #3). There is an extensive article on TrucTrain service. It has a list of the F30d flat cars converted for TrucTrain use (Table of Road Numbers). The article says 500 75' flats were transferred to Trailer Train Company in early 1956, when TTX was formed. Later in 1956, 86 of the 115 F30d's were transferred. Even later, 200 F30a's were purchased from the PRR. The article also has good information and photos of the trailers. I don't have time to give more specific answers now. After the weekend, I can transcribe the list of F30d's for Keystone Crossings. Andy Cich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:44:37 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Roco curved N scale switches From: Roger P Hensley This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_01a1.626b.3c42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If they are untested, why are there insulating rail joiners on them? They 'look' alright. They are like the old Atlas turnout with the momentary powered switch machine. In other words, you only feed power to either side with a momebtary switch. One lead is common and one each to 'throw' the turnout. Don't know about the rail height. Hope this was of some help. On Fri, 22 Nov 2002 06:13:41 -0500 Zak writes: Hi, all. I'm considering bidding on a pair of Roco switches on eBay - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19127&item=1790152 770 - and when I look at them, for some reason I think something is wrong with them. I'm not familiar with the Roco brand, or curved switches. If any of you more knowledgeable persons could take a quick peek at them and give me a "heads up" yay or nay, I really would appreciate it. Thanks in advance. Zak "Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing mail." Roger Hensley === Railroads of Madison County === === http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ === ----__JNP_000_01a1.626b.3c42 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If they are untested, why are there insulating rail joiners on
them? They 'look' alright. They are like the old Atlas turnout
with the momentary powered switch machine. In other words,
you only feed power to either side with a momebtary switch. 
One lead is common and one each to 'throw' the turnout. Don't
know about the rail height.
 
Hope this was of some help.
 
On Fri, 22 Nov 2002 06:13:41 -0500 Zak <casimer.zakrzewski@us.army.= mil>=20 writes:
Hi, all.
 
I'm considering bidding on a pair of Roco = switches on=20 eBay - http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&= amp;category=3D19127&item=3D1790152770=20 - and when I look at them, for some reason I think something is wrong = with=20 them.
 
I'm not familiar with the Roco brand, or curved=20 switches.  If any of you more knowledgeable persons could take a = quick=20 peek at them and give me a "heads up" yay or nay, I really would=20 appreciate it.
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Zak

"Norton Anti-Virus is used for all outgoing=20 mail."
 
 

Roger Hensley

=3D=3D=3D = Railroads of Madison=20 County =3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ =3D=3D=3D ----__JNP_000_01a1.626b.3c42-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:23:32 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] TrucTrain Trailers Isn't the F30 the car Bowser does? Wouldn't it be nice if Bowser did the early TT version of the F30 complete with an appropriate early 50s PRR trailer! They did a variation of their H21 for the bizarre ice breaker car, how about the much more common F30 variant. Come to think of it, Bowser is also into trailers! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Andy Cich wrote: > Jerry, > > To answer your two most recent questions, you need to get a copy of the > August 1992 Keystone (Vol 25 #3). There is an extensive article on > TrucTrain service. It has a list of the F30d flat cars converted for > TrucTrain use (Table of Road Numbers). The article says 500 75' flats were > transferred to Trailer Train Company in early 1956, when TTX was formed. > Later in 1956, 86 of the 115 F30d's were transferred. Even later, 200 > F30a's were purchased from the PRR. The article also has good information > and photos of the trailers. > > I don't have time to give more specific answers now. After the weekend, I > can transcribe the list of F30d's for Keystone Crossings. > > Andy Cich > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 14:27:01 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] TrucTrain Trailers From: Jerry Britton On 11/22/02 2:23 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > Isn't the F30 the car Bowser does? Wouldn't it be nice if Bowser did the > early TT version of the F30 complete with an appropriate early 50s PRR > trailer! They did a variation of their H21 for the bizarre ice breaker car, > how about the much more common F30 variant. Come to think of it, Bowser is > also into trailers! > Yes, and that's the bottom line of my research. Of course, I'm pushing for N scale! Those in HO have their F30, which can be made an F30d fairly easily. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 13:57:04 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser B6 From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" I just took a look at the photo on the Bowser web page. SURELY they aren't going to offer this engine with brass drivers! Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Martin Skrzetuszewski" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:29:22 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008A_01C29265.D76EA4E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob, Thanks for the info. WFE and BREX ice reefers are available in N. I will put them on my list = for Santa! I have a trio of Microtrains C&NW wood reefers in green/yellow - I = bought them years ago when we had a couple of model shops that stocked US-N in = the south of England - sadly, no more. Intermountain do a steel reefer in = C&NW colors, together with Swift, Rath & Armour, but the color schemes for = these last 3 seem a bit modern for '54. I will have to look again to see = whether they do a URTX/Milwaukee car. Santa is going to be busy!....... Many thanks for your help, Martin S. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 > In a message dated 11/20/02 3:14:38 AM Central Standard Time, > martinskrzetuszewski@lineone.net writes: > > << What is a good ratio for PFE to FGE cars in a block train? >> > > Can't tell you that ratio, but for variety on the PFE, throw in a = Western > Pacific lettered car (WP logo on one side). Since the Western Fruit Express > (Great Northern) and Burlington Refrigerator Express were associated = with > FGE, throw in a car or two of those (1:1:7 is the total ratio in that pool) > as well. I also add a C&NW car or two (the green and yellow ones = began to > replace gray about your time period, 1954, I believe) and a Milwaukee (URTX) > And, though I don't know how much went East of Pittsburgh, the meat packers > contributed traffic as well. Swift and Armour had cars. And Kahn, = Roth (a > mispelling or a different company from Rath?), and Oscar Meyer = contracted > cars from National Car Company, a full-blown subsidiary of FGE, = though, > again, an Easterner would have to say how far those brands made it to = the > East Coast. Westbound trains are listed as carrying empty packing = house cars > from Enola for connection to Chicago and Northwestern and Chicago, > Milwaukee, St. Paul, and Pacific. > > Don't know how many of the above are available in N. > > Bob Zoeller ------=_NextPart_000_008A_01C29265.D76EA4E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob,
Thanks=20 for the info.

WFE and BREX ice reefers are available in N. I will = put=20 them on my list for
Santa!

I have a trio of Microtrains = C&NW wood=20 reefers in green/yellow - I bought
them years ago when we had a = couple of=20 model shops that stocked US-N in the
south of England - sadly, no = more.=20 Intermountain do a steel reefer in C&NW
colors, together with = Swift, Rath=20 & Armour, but the color schemes for these
last 3 seem a bit = modern for=20 '54. I will have to look again to see whether
they do a = URTX/Milwaukee car.=20 Santa is going to be busy!.......

Many thanks for your = help,
Martin=20 S.

----- Original Message -----
From: <Bobspf@aol.com>
To:=20 <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 2:00 PM
Subject: = Re: [PRR]=20 Reefer traffic in 1954


> In a message dated 11/20/02 = 3:14:38 AM=20 Central Standard Time,
> martinskrzetuszewski@lineone.net writes:
>
> << What is a good ratio for PFE = to FGE=20 cars in a block train? >>
>
> Can't tell you = that  ratio,=20 but for variety on the PFE, throw in a Western
> Pacific lettered = car (WP=20 logo on one side).  Since the Western Fruit
Express
> = (Great=20 Northern) and Burlington Refrigerator Express were associated = with
> FGE,=20 throw in a car or two of those (1:1:7 is the total ratio in=20 that
pool)
> as well.  I also add a C&NW car or two = (the green=20 and yellow ones began to
> replace  gray about your time = period,=20 1954, I believe) and a Milwaukee
(URTX)
> And, though I don't = know how=20 much went East of Pittsburgh, the meat
packers
> contributed = traffic as=20 well.  Swift and Armour had cars.  And Kahn, = Roth
(a
>=20 mispelling or a different company from Rath?), and Oscar Meyer=20 contracted
> cars from National Car Company,  a full-blown = subsidiary=20 of  FGE, though,
> again, an Easterner would have to say how = far=20 those brands made it to the
> East Coast. Westbound trains are = listed as=20 carrying empty packing house
cars
> from Enola for connection = to=20 Chicago and Northwestern  and Chicago,
> Milwaukee, St. Paul, = and=20 Pacific.
>
> Don't know how many of the above are available = in=20 N.
>
> Bob Zoeller

------=_NextPart_000_008A_01C29265.D76EA4E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Martin Skrzetuszewski" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:33:12 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00B5_01C29266.609B38A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bruce, Thanks for your reply. It answers most of my questions completely! I had = the impression that PFE was a bigger player in the PRR reefer business than = it really was. I spent a lot of my railway career in England up to 1994 looking after = the maintenance and repair of freight & MOW cars - I am a freight car = addict! I already have too many freight cars to run on the layout at one time, but = I still ultimately want to get enough reefers for a second train. There is = so much more choice these days and they are just so addictive! Many thanks for your help. Martin S. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce F. Smith To: Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 > Martin asks some great questions about reefer traffic on the PRR. > > The route of preference for PFE was also Erie, according to Tony = Thompson, > PFE fact guru. SFRD cars did make appearance in Pittsburgh and at = other > places on the system. Usually not in solid blocks, but as small = numbers of > cars with specific produce. I have seen photos of SFRD reefers in > Blatimore harbor loading bananas. > > As for eastbound reefer traffic, reefers from a variety of areas with = a > variety of produce for the Pittsburgh, Philly and local markets in = betwixt > would have been collected at western gateways such as Chicago and St. > Louis. These would have reflected a variety of owners, in part = depending > on the region that the produce came from and that in turn depended on = the > season. Unlike the left coast, you would not see solid trains of one > company hauling one commodity. These would have been collected into > expedited blocks and perhaps even whole trains of reefers, however, = the PRR > had a lot of trouble getting this to work (hence PFE and SFRD's = preference > for the Erie). During the first half of WWII, you could see reefers = and > stock cars being expedited by being added to oil trains. > > Don't forget that reefers worked other traffic besides Left coast = crops. > There was a strong Northbound traffic in Peaches. The "peach train" worked > north to Baltimore and then up the Northern Central to Harrisburg and = WEST > to Pittsburgh. This was described in the Keystone a few issues back = (IIRC > the T1 issue). Other traffic might include fresh mushrooms (usually = in > R50Bs on passenger trains) and New Jersey crops (tomatoes etc) for > Pittsburgh. > > I'll not comment on Red Caboose's imagination other to say that the = only > correct FGE reefers produced in HO currently are in resin (I know you = are > in N - don't know the status there). IM is reportedly releasing a new = HO > FGE reefer. As for your car fleet of produce reefers...it should be > dominated with FGE/WFE/BREX (mostly FGE). A minority of cars should = be PFE > and an even smaller number SFRD. You can also throw in a few URTX, = CNW, > GTW (NICE HO resin kit from Nowest) and even some MDT (NYC - boo hiss) > reefers. The bottom line though is that produce was not a big item = for the > PRR to haul, so reefers should be small percentage of the cars on the > layout. As some have said, they treated it too much like coal! > > Happy Rails > Bruce ------=_NextPart_000_00B5_01C29266.609B38A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bruce,
Thanks for your reply. It answers most of my = questions=20 completely! I had the
impression that PFE was a bigger player in the = PRR=20 reefer business than it
really was.

I spent a lot of my = railway career=20 in England up to 1994 looking after the
maintenance and repair of = freight=20 & MOW cars - I am a freight car addict! I
already have too many = freight=20 cars to run on the layout at one time, but I
still ultimately want to = get=20 enough reefers for a second train. There is so
much more choice these = days=20 and they are just so addictive!

Many thanks for your = help.
Martin=20 S.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce F. Smith = <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
To: <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, = 2002 2:43=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954


> Martin = asks some=20 great questions about reefer traffic on the PRR.
>
> The = route of=20 preference for PFE was also Erie, according to Tony Thompson,
> = PFE fact=20 guru.  SFRD cars did make appearance in Pittsburgh and at = other
>=20 places on the system.  Usually not in solid blocks, but as small=20 numbers
of
> cars with specific produce.  I have seen = photos of=20 SFRD reefers in
> Blatimore harbor loading = bananas.
>
> As for=20 eastbound reefer traffic, reefers from a variety of areas with a
> = variety=20 of produce for the Pittsburgh, Philly and local markets in = betwixt
> would=20 have been collected at western gateways such as Chicago and St.
>=20 Louis.  These would have reflected a variety of owners, in part=20 depending
> on the region that the produce came from and that in = turn=20 depended on the
> season.  Unlike the left coast, you would = not see=20 solid trains of one
> company hauling one commodity. These would = have been=20 collected into
> expedited blocks and perhaps even whole trains of = reefers, however, the
PRR
> had a lot of trouble getting this = to work=20 (hence PFE and SFRD's preference
> for the Erie).  During the = first=20 half of WWII, you could see reefers and
> stock cars being = expedited by=20 being added to oil trains.
>
> Don't forget that reefers = worked=20 other traffic besides Left coast crops.
> There was a strong = Northbound=20 traffic in Peaches.  The "peach train"
worked
> north to = Baltimore=20 and then up the Northern Central to Harrisburg and WEST
> to=20 Pittsburgh.  This was described in the Keystone a few issues back=20 (IIRC
> the T1 issue).  Other traffic might include fresh = mushrooms=20 (usually in
> R50Bs on passenger trains) and New Jersey crops = (tomatoes=20 etc) for
> Pittsburgh.
>
> I'll not comment on Red = Caboose's=20 imagination other to say that the only
> correct FGE reefers = produced in=20 HO currently are in resin (I know you are
> in N - don't know the = status=20 there).  IM is reportedly releasing a new HO
> FGE = reefer.  As=20 for your car fleet of produce reefers...it should be
> dominated = with=20 FGE/WFE/BREX (mostly FGE).  A minority of cars should = be
PFE
> and=20 an even smaller number SFRD.  You can also throw in a few URTX,=20 CNW,
> GTW (NICE HO resin kit from Nowest) and even some MDT (NYC = - boo=20 hiss)
> reefers.  The bottom line though is that produce was = not a=20 big item for
the
> PRR to haul, so reefers should be small = percentage=20 of the cars on the
> layout.  As some have said, they treated = it too=20 much like coal!
>
> Happy Rails
>=20 Bruce

------=_NextPart_000_00B5_01C29266.609B38A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Martin Skrzetuszewski" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:34:48 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00D2_01C29266.99AA75C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gregg, Many thanks for your interesting posting. It answers many of my = questions completely. I have added an ebay sort by "N-scale reefer" to my favorites to see if = I can pick up some of the older MT and IMR cars. What really caused me concern re the double lines on FGE cars, was a = video shot of such cars being loaded onto a ferry in the last days of LIRR = steam c1954/5. Having looked again at the shot, I see that these are not ice reefers. Thanks once again. Regards, Martin S. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gregg Mahlkov Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:49 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 > Awright, guys, > > I know a little bit about this, as I was the Pennsylvania Railroad's = Sales > Representative assigned to the Pennsylvania Produce Terminal in = Baltimore, > Maryland, in 1965 and 1966, when the PRR decided it was losing its a** = on > perishable traffic and started a marketing study to decide what to do about > it. Since there was no "marketing department" in those days, it fell = upon > sales and rates to do the work. Therefore, I dealt not only with Baltimore > > ..........Martin mentions the FGE cars with the two black stripes. = These are NOT > refrigerator cars, but insulated boxcars that when in Fruit Growers = marks, > went by RBNX. > > Gregg Mahlkov ------=_NextPart_000_00D2_01C29266.99AA75C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gregg,
Many=20 thanks for your interesting posting. It answers many of my=20 questions
completely.

I have added an ebay sort by "N-scale = reefer" to=20 my favorites to see if I
can pick up some of the older MT and IMR=20 cars.

What really caused me concern re the double lines on FGE = cars, was=20 a video
shot of such cars being loaded onto a ferry in the last days = of LIRR=20 steam
c1954/5. Having looked again at the shot, I see that these are = not=20 ice
reefers.

Thanks once again.
Regards,
Martin = S.

-----=20 Original Message -----
From: Gregg Mahlkov <mahlkov@gtcom.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:49 PM
Subject: = Re: [PRR]=20 Reefer traffic in 1954

> Awright, guys,
>
> I know = a=20 little bit about this, as I was the Pennsylvania Railroad's = Sales
>=20 Representative assigned to the Pennsylvania Produce Terminal in=20 Baltimore,
> Maryland, in 1965 and 1966, when the PRR decided it = was=20 losing its a** on
> perishable traffic and started a marketing = study to=20 decide what to do
about
> it. Since there was no "marketing = department"=20 in those days, it fell upon
> sales and rates to do the work. = Therefore, I=20 dealt not only with
Baltimore <snipped>
>
>=20 ..........Martin mentions the FGE cars with the two black stripes. = These
are=20 NOT
> refrigerator cars, but insulated boxcars that when in Fruit = Growers=20 marks,
> went by RBNX.
>
> Gregg=20 Mahlkov


------=_NextPart_000_00D2_01C29266.99AA75C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Martin Skrzetuszewski" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:35:49 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00ED_01C29266.BDE95460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gregg, Many thanks for your interesting posting. It answers many of my = questions completely. I have added an ebay sort by "N-scale reefer" to my favorites to see if = I can pick up some of the older MT and IMR cars. What really caused me concern re the double lines on FGE cars, was a = video shot of such cars being loaded onto a ferry in the last days of LIRR = steam c1954/5. Having looked again at the shot, I see that these are not ice reefers. Thanks once again. Regards, Martin S. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gregg Mahlkov Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:49 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 > Awright, guys, > > I know a little bit about this, as I was the Pennsylvania Railroad's = Sales > Representative assigned to the Pennsylvania Produce Terminal in = Baltimore, > Maryland, in 1965 and 1966, when the PRR decided it was losing its a** = on > perishable traffic and started a marketing study to decide what to do about > it. Since there was no "marketing department" in those days, it fell = upon > sales and rates to do the work. Therefore, I dealt not only with Baltimore > > ..........Martin mentions the FGE cars with the two black stripes. = These are NOT > refrigerator cars, but insulated boxcars that when in Fruit Growers = marks, > went by RBNX. > > Gregg Mahlkov ------=_NextPart_000_00ED_01C29266.BDE95460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gregg,
Many=20 thanks for your interesting posting. It answers many of my=20 questions
completely.

I have added an ebay sort by "N-scale = reefer" to=20 my favorites to see if I
can pick up some of the older MT and IMR=20 cars.

What really caused me concern re the double lines on FGE = cars, was=20 a video
shot of such cars being loaded onto a ferry in the last days = of LIRR=20 steam
c1954/5. Having looked again at the shot, I see that these are = not=20 ice
reefers.

Thanks once again.
Regards,
Martin = S.

-----=20 Original Message -----
From: Gregg Mahlkov <mahlkov@gtcom.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:49 PM
Subject: = Re: [PRR]=20 Reefer traffic in 1954

> Awright, guys,
>
> I know = a=20 little bit about this, as I was the Pennsylvania Railroad's = Sales
>=20 Representative assigned to the Pennsylvania Produce Terminal in=20 Baltimore,
> Maryland, in 1965 and 1966, when the PRR decided it = was=20 losing its a** on
> perishable traffic and started a marketing = study to=20 decide what to do
about
> it. Since there was no "marketing = department"=20 in those days, it fell upon
> sales and rates to do the work. = Therefore, I=20 dealt not only with
Baltimore <snipped>
>
>=20 ..........Martin mentions the FGE cars with the two black stripes. = These
are=20 NOT
> refrigerator cars, but insulated boxcars that when in Fruit = Growers=20 marks,
> went by RBNX.
>
> Gregg=20 Mahlkov


------=_NextPart_000_00ED_01C29266.BDE95460-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 15:48:52 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 From: Jerry Britton On 11/22/02 3:33 PM, Martin Skrzetuszewski (martinskrzetuszewski@lineone.net) wrote: > IM is reportedly releasing a new HO >> FGE reefer. Bruce: How is IM's current (though out of stock) N scale FGE reefer? http://www.intermountain-railway.com/n/html/65508.htm ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Open Houses Sort of Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:45:59 -0500 Listers, Anyone know if the new Oxford firehouse is having it's auction this coming Wed. Also what type of stuff is auctioned? Brass P2k PRR? An inquiring SPF (who will be visiting his mom outside of Hershey) wants to know! Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KLJURY@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 16:46:34 EST Subject: [PRR] Buffalo Boxcar --part1_64.2898e454.2b0fffba_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beleive these were the BF4 eastbound and BF5 westbound --part1_64.2898e454.2b0fffba_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Beleive these were the BF4 eastbound and BF5 westbound --part1_64.2898e454.2b0fffba_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:45:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Open Houses Sort of From: Jerry Britton On 11/22/02 4:45 PM, "Chany, Christopher" wrote: > Anyone know if the new Oxford firehouse is having it's auction this coming > Wed. Also what type of stuff is auctioned? Brass P2k PRR? > > An inquiring SPF (who will be visiting his mom outside of Hershey) wants to > know! > Yes, it is on for this Wednesday. I got a postcard. I forget the details, as I knew I couldn't attend and threw it out. I think it starts at 7. Usually goes till well after midnight. Usually a lot of railroadiana, books, etc. A large portion of the model trains are, shall I say, junk! But there are some gems. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Laird" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Books vs. Models Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 18:42:11 -0600 Jerry wrote, in part: > I was looking ahead to what is coming in PRR over the next few months. Aside >from BLI's announcements and the Walthers R50b's, not much! Seems like there > is a bit of a PRR model drought! Maybe not all bad. Wallet is getting a little dry. Gives me a chance to save up for the BLI releases next year. Bill Laird Canyon Lake, Texas ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 20:53:30 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TrucTrain Follow Up From: "Jerry @ Pennsyrr" Shortly after my original post this morning, I was reminded of the Autumn 1992 issue of The Keystone, which featured an article on TrucTrain service. An outstanding question is an actual numerical roster, but I've been referred to the back of an ORER (Official Railroad Equipment Register), which I have yet to do. However, here are some details... No disputing that the first flats in use were 115 F30d's that were modified to accommodate tie downs and circus-style loading. These 50' cars were the only flats in service from the inauguration of service in July 1954 (it was announced in June 1954) until the 75' F39's began arriving in December 1954. Prior to this service, the PRR already had a substantial fleet of 24' to 26' smooth side or rib side trailers with side doors and a rounded front end. The paint scheme was bright red with "PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD" appearing diagonally from lower left to upper right, with a keystone logo at each end of the text. Within the keystone were the words "KEYSTONE MERCHANDISE SERVICE". The upper left corner of the trailer contained the words "PICKUP AND DELIVERY" and the lower right corner the words "DOOR TO DOOR SERVICE". There was additional text and graphics on the front and rear, but it is too extensive to go into here. There didn't seem to be a rhyme or reason as to trailer numbers. All examples were all numbers. The above trailers existed before inauguration of PRR's TOFC service. But as of the beginning of the new service, the PRR leased 150 new 30' Fruehauf trailers. These had numbers that started with "30" to indicate the length, then "C" (in the case of a dry van), then the actual trailer number (three digits). The paint scheme was the same as for the shorter trailers, but had the PRR initials inside the keystone instead. These were still single-axle with a side door, but with a squared front. The TOFC service ran on the LCL symbol trains, which often also contained "Merchandise Service" cars. It was 1955 until dedicated trains carried only trailers under symbol TT. In March 1955 PRR started carrying other trailers (non PRR). At this time the PRR purchased more trailers from Fruehauf and Trailmoble, including 32' dry vans from Fruehauf. Lettering was modified slightly to contain the slogan "TrucTrain" on the side. Skipping way ahead, the disk "TrucTrain" logo didn't come into use until the 1960's. My intent herein was to discuss the initial service and to point out what was not included in the initial service (>30' trailers, flats). For more info, see the issue of The Keystone. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Regional Superintendent, PRR Eastern Region Modeling the PRR in September 1954 http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 21:28:05 EST Subject: [PRR] South Fork,Paint Creek & Shade Creek Branchs --part1_77.2cc0674.2b1041b5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List.=20 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 This a bit lengthy and may be somewhat confusing to some=20= but after=20 recently doing tie renewal work on the former South Fork,Paint Creek & Shade= =20 Creek branchs,I started looking into their beginings and need some help with= =20 dates=20 =A0=A0 The South Fork RR was opened for traffic to Dunlo,Pa on Aug.15th,1891= ,two=20 years after the dam of the old Western reservoir collapsed causing the=20 Johnstown flood. This road and the Scalp Level RR,which was formed later,wer= e=20 built for the purpose of developing an important coal producing territory in= =20 Western Penna.=20 The two roads were merged in 1902 under the name South Fork Railroad=20 Company and owned nearly 45 miles of railroad at the time it was absorbed by= =20 the PRR in 1903.(This from"The Growth And Development Of The Pennsylvania=20 Railroad Company 1846-1926") This I have known as long as I have had that=20 book. What I am looking for are some dates as the South Fork Br work=20 progressed. Also dates of the building of the Paint Creek Br.=20 =A0=A0 The 1905 CT1000 shows the South Fork Br( 20.7 miles) & Paint Creek Br= . ( 1.7 miles) but no Shade Creek Br yet. Looking for a date the Shade Creek B= r=20 started. =A0 The 1911 CT1000 now shows the Shade Creek Br ( 6.8 miles) which would be= =20 ending just south of Seanor. Also there is now 1.2 less miles from Alt. Sta.= =20 to all points listed( maybe from new realignment improvements?) =A0 The 1915 CT1000 shows the Shade Creek being 15.6 miles which would be=20 ending at Cairnbrook. Looking for date of this extension =A0 The 1918 CT1000 E&W now shows a East & West Jct points for the South For= k.=20 The East jct.(1.5 miles east of station), I figure must be what was the piec= e=20 of=20 track that was the jumpover, just west of the Summerhill Br. east jct. The=20 West=20 jct.is 0.3 miles west of the South Fork station. The Shade Creek Br. now is=20 17.5 miles long which would make it end just south of Central City. Looking=20 for a date=20 of this extension and when the jumpover was built. =A0 The 1923 CT1000C shows no changes to Shade Creek Br. but has a piece of=20 track 0.2 miles further than the end of track that goes to a mine. =A0 The 1945 CT1000C shows the Shade Creek was extended an additional 2.2=20 miles. Looking for a date on this extension. I did find that what was new MP 18.0 was a concrete MP as it is now broken off but laying in the ditch line=20 covered with leaves.I did not find an orig MP 19.0,only the new MP from a=20 renumbering( which I did for the transportation dept in 1982)=20 =A0 I do not have the timetables needed but some where in a Pgh Div. ETT is=20= a=20 G.O. changing 3706 ft of the Paint Creek Br and all of the Shade Creek Br to= =20 the Central Secondary. Looking for that ETT number and date. =A0=A0 A final note is that the South Fork( to the jct of the Paint Creek=20 Br),that 3706 ft=20 of the remaining Paint Creek Br & all of the Shade Creek Br were later=20 changed=20 to reflect the entire line being called the South Fork. That portion of the=20 orig. South Fork that went to Windber and finally Ashtola now ends at the PA RT 56= =20 crossing south of Windber as the remainder has been abandoned and removed.=20 Would like a date on that abandonment. I am not sure what remains of the=20 former Windber Br,if it is intact or was abandoned. Any info. and dates on=20 this would be helpful. =A0 Thank you to all that can help. Pat McKinney =A0=A0=20 =A0=20 --part1_77.2cc0674.2b1041b5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List.
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 This a bit lengthy and may be somewhat confusing to some=20= but after
recently doing tie renewal work on the former South Fork,Paint Creek & S= hade
Creek branchs,I started looking into their beginings and need some help with=
dates
=A0=A0 The South Fork RR was opened for traffic to Dunlo,Pa on Aug.15th,1891= ,two
years after the dam of the old Western reservoir collapsed causing the Johns= town flood. This road and the Scalp Level RR,which was formed later,were bui= lt for the purpose of developing an important coal producing territory in We= stern Penna.
The two roads were merged in 1902 under the name South Fork Railroad
Company and owned nearly 45 miles of railroad at the time it was absorbed by=
the PRR in 1903.(This from"The Growth And Development Of The Pennsylvania Ra= ilroad Company 1846-1926") This I have known as long as I have had that
book. What I am looking for are some dates as the South Fork Br work
progressed. Also dates of the building of the Paint Creek Br.
=A0=A0 The 1905 CT1000 shows the South Fork Br( 20.7 miles) & Paint Cree= k Br.
( 1.7 miles) but no Shade Creek Br yet. Looking for a date the Shade Creek B= r started.
=A0 The 1911 CT1000 now shows the Shade Creek Br ( 6.8 miles) which would be=
ending just south of Seanor. Also there is now 1.2 less miles from Alt. Sta.= to all points listed( maybe from new realignment improvements?)
=A0 The 1915 CT1000 shows the Shade Creek being 15.6 miles which would be ending at Cairnbrook. Looking for date of this extension
=A0 The 1918 CT1000 E&W now shows a East & West Jct points for the S= outh Fork. The East jct.(1.5 miles east of station), I figure must be what w= as the piece of
track that was the jumpover, just west of the Summerhill Br. east jct. The W= est
jct.is 0.3 miles west of the South Fork station. The Shade Creek Br. now is=20= 17.5 miles long which would make it end just south of Central City. Looking=20= for a date
of this extension and when the jumpover was built.
=A0 The 1923 CT1000C shows no changes to Shade Creek Br. but has a piece of=20=
track 0.2 miles further than the end of track that goes to a mine.
=A0 The 1945 CT1000C shows the Shade Creek was extended an additional 2.2 miles. Looking for a date on this extension. I did find that what was new MP=
18.0 was a concrete MP as it is now broken off but laying in the ditch line=20=
covered with leaves.I did not find an orig MP 19.0,only the new MP from a re= numbering( which I did for the transportation dept in 1982)
=A0 I do not have the timetables needed but some where in a Pgh Div. ETT is=20= a
G.O. changing 3706 ft of the Paint Creek Br and all of the Shade Creek Br to=
the Central Secondary. Looking for that ETT number and date.
=A0=A0 A final note is that the South Fork( to the jct of the Paint Creek Br= ),that 3706 ft
of the remaining Paint Creek Br & all of the Shade Creek Br were later c= hanged
to reflect the entire line being called the South Fork. That portion of the=20= orig.
South Fork that went to Windber and finally Ashtola now ends at the PA RT 56= crossing south of Windber as the remainder has been abandoned and removed.=20= Would like a date on that abandonment. I am not sure what remains of the for= mer Windber Br,if it is intact or was abandoned. Any info. and dates on this= would be helpful.
=A0 Thank you to all that can help.

Pat McKinney
=A0=A0
=A0
--part1_77.2cc0674.2b1041b5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:03:16 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Concrete mileposts --part1_b7.2a63a174.2b1049f4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List. When did they start to use concrete mileposts? What was the reason for going to concrete rather than making the familiar castiron ones? Thanks to all who respond. Pat McKinney --part1_b7.2a63a174.2b1049f4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List.
        When did they start to use concrete mileposts? What was the reason for going to concrete rather than making the familiar castiron ones? Thanks to all who respond.

Pat McKinney --part1_b7.2a63a174.2b1049f4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 22:16:27 EST Subject: [PRR] TrucTrain trailers In a message dated 11/22/02 11:38:20 AM Central Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << Anyone know (or have) a source of roster information for TrucTrain trailers? Though I am interested in the 26-28' versions that were around in 1954, I think it would be worthwhile to put all the info on Keystone Crossings if it is available somewhere. Also, anyone know who the manufacturer of the many trailers were? Are any of them "popular"/"standard" trailers that were common elsewhere? >> In addition to the Keystone article mentioned, PPIII has some photos of trucks. I believe Fruehauf was the main manufacturer of PRR trucks. I have bought a couple of the Sheepscot models and am waiting for the Fruehauf and other trailers of OnTrak (sp?) to come out (see Walthers and Bethlehem Car Works websites). But those are HO. I have been accumulating enough "stuff" to do a TrucTrain. Finally gonna build the 10 Walthers F39s in the apartment storage locker to run a TrucTrain at the club. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: Re: [PRR] TrucTrain trailers Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 00:34:27 -0500 Gebts; Another PRR circa 1944 question.....what type of "truc-train" equipment existed then by whatever name? Anybody know where photos exist of that type of trailering in that era? Earl Myers PRR in 1943/44 Canton District ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 10:16 PM Subject: [PRR] TrucTrain trailers > In a message dated 11/22/02 11:38:20 AM Central Standard Time, > jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > > << Anyone know (or have) a source of roster information for TrucTrain > trailers? > > Though I am interested in the 26-28' versions that were around in 1954, I > think it would be worthwhile to put all the info on Keystone Crossings if it > is available somewhere. > > Also, anyone know who the manufacturer of the many trailers were? Are any of > them "popular"/"standard" trailers that were common elsewhere? >> > > In addition to the Keystone article mentioned, PPIII has some photos of > trucks. I believe Fruehauf was the main manufacturer of PRR trucks. I have > bought a couple of the Sheepscot models and am waiting for the Fruehauf and > other trailers of OnTrak (sp?) to come out (see Walthers and Bethlehem Car > Works websites). But those are HO. > > I have been accumulating enough "stuff" to do a TrucTrain. Finally gonna > build the 10 Walthers F39s in the apartment storage locker to run a TrucTrain > at the club. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Martin Skrzetuszewski" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 06:14:49 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005E_01C292B7.A0E30C20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dan & Bruce, Thanks for the info. There is a nice (but small) shot dated Dec '56 of = an L-1s working tender-first, what I suppose is an Enola-Harrisburg = transfer, with a red Swift reefer at the head on p73 of Pennsy Steam Years 2. I assume they must have worked westward out of Enola? Regards, Martin S. ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Cupper Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 5:00 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 > Greetings to Martin and the List: > > Swift Co. had a packing house in Harrisburg, north of the PRR = passenger > station and not far from where Harris Tower still stands. Photos from > the 50s do show red Swift reefers in the area. From: Bruce F. Smith Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 6:46 PM Subject: [PRR] Swift Reefers (was Reefer traffic in 1954) > >Gents; > > Anybody know if those same red Swift reefers existed in1945 or = earlier (WW2 > >years)????? > >Earl Myers > > Earl, > > Richard Hendrickson, over on the Steam Era FC list said that Swift = reefers > first go a large red SWIFT logo on the right side before 1949 and = sometime > after 1947. The bright red and white Swift cars began to appear as = early > as April, 1950. An example of this is shown on the model at > http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-2571 a Walther's Meat = reefer. > This General American built "belt rail" reefer was built post war (a = few > were built prior to WWII, but not the Walthers car). Swift had a = sizeable > reefer fleet in WW2, just not as vivid . Sunshine offers a number = of > appropriate Swift cars in HO. > > Happy Rails > Bruce ------=_NextPart_000_005E_01C292B7.A0E30C20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dan &=20 Bruce,
Thanks for the info. There is a nice (but small) shot dated = Dec '56 of=20 an
L-1s working tender-first, what I suppose is an Enola-Harrisburg=20 transfer,
with a red Swift reefer at the head on p73 of Pennsy Steam = Years=20 2.

I assume they must have worked westward out of=20 Enola?

Regards,
Martin S.

----- Original Message = -----
From:=20 Dan Cupper <cupper@att.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, = 2002 5:00=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954

> Greetings to = Martin=20 and the List:
>
> Swift Co. had a packing house in = Harrisburg, north=20 of the PRR passenger
> station and not far from where Harris Tower = still=20 stands. Photos from
> the 50s do show red Swift reefers in the=20 area.

From: Bruce F. Smith <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 6:46 PM
Subject: = [PRR]=20 Swift Reefers (was Reefer traffic in 1954)

> = >Gents;
> >=20 Anybody know if those same red Swift reefers existed in1945 or=20 earlier
(WW2
> >years)?????
> >Earl = Myers
>
>=20 Earl,
>
> Richard Hendrickson, over on the Steam Era FC list = said=20 that Swift reefers
> first go a large red SWIFT logo on the right = side=20 before 1949 and sometime
> after 1947.  The bright red and = white=20 Swift cars began to appear as early
> as April, 1950.  An = example of=20 this is shown on the model at
> http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-2571 a Walther's Meat reefer.
> This = General=20 American built "belt rail" reefer was built post war (a few
> were = built=20 prior to WWII, but not the Walthers car).  Swift had a = sizeable
>=20 reefer fleet in WW2, just not as vivid <G>.  Sunshine offers = a number=20 of
> appropriate Swift cars in HO.
>
> Happy = Rails
>=20 Bruce


------=_NextPart_000_005E_01C292B7.A0E30C20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:09:47 +0000 From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser B6 Donald E. Harper, Jr wrote: >I just took a look at the photo on the Bowser web page. SURELY they aren't >going to offer this engine with brass drivers! > >Don Harper >Texas A&M Marine Lab >5007 Avenue U >Galveston, TX 77551 >409/740-4540 > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > Seems an odd colour for brass IMHO ...... more of a phosphor-bronze colour ...... though the limitations of colour rendition via all the digital stuff might not be reliable. Brass wheels would be a retrograde step and would need to be replaced on any model I acquired. I look on the Bowser locos as kits with potential, ...... the latest ones that is. The B6sb seems to fit this bill. The older Bowser ( old Penn Line stuff etc. ) have too many crude innacuracies in boiler / firebox shape that rule them out as far as I'm concerned. But their latest offerings from the A5 onwards are much better. The bottom line for me, is how would the B6sb look alongside my brass locos. Looking at the web site picture I would say OK. bearing in mind that a lot of metal would need to be ground away to 'thin' down appearance ...... cab, footplate etc. and detail parts added. This work is part and parcel of what you need to do with a Bowser kit IMHO, and should be accepted as such. If you can't / won't do this ...... then you can't expect the loco to look as good as latest plastic 'steam'. -- Regards, John H. Wright Washington, England Web sites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ http://www.xclent.clara.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 05:45:03 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] B6 subclasses, with source citations. Hello list, Here's some info on the B6 subclasses, courtesty of Edson's PRR All-time Steam Roster, MP109J (1948) and Pennsy Power 3. The B6 (22 x 24 cyls, 205lbs boiler pressure, 170,000 pounds weight, 36,144 pounds tractive force) was built from 1903 to 1913; 79 engines were built by Juniata (54), Baldwin (15), and Lima (10). All but 9 were later superheated and gained a bit of weight (174,000 pounds). Grate area was 41.25 square feet. These engines all carried Lines West numbers. Based on looking at photos (PRR Power 3, page 64, top of B6s 7136 as superheated), when superheated, these engines retained inside steam pipes. In 1911, the saturated B6a appeared. None were built for PRR, but 10 were built by Juniata for Washington Terminal (20-29). Most dimension similar to the B6, but grate area increased to 61.67 square feet, and weight of the saturated engines was 174,000 pounds. These engines, and all subsequent B6 subclasses, had Walschaerts valve gear and outside steam pipes. 55 B6sa were built by Juniata for PRR use in 1913-1912 (a further pair were built for Washington Terminal). These engines carried Lines East numbers. Weight of these superheated engines increased to 177350 pounds. 5 of this class (in addition to the two built for Washington Terminal) were sold to Washington Terminal in the 1930s. A sixth engine was sold in September 1952 to the Cemline Corporation to supply steam. That engine, number 60, still exists in Delaware. 238 B6sb engines with Belpaire fireboxes were built in the years 1916 (107), 1917 (34), 1923-24 (34), and 1926 (60). All were built by Juniata. These engines were the heaviest of all the B6 subclasses, weighing 180,300 pounds. Grate area was effectively the same as the earlier B6a/B6sa; B6sb had 61.57 square feet. See Pennsy Power 3, page 64 for shots of B6sb 660 (built 10/17); she has a large steel cab that's about 8 feet long. B6sb 1670 preserved at Strasburg has the large cab and inward sloping cylinders. See the top of page 65 for a shot of B6sb 6356, built in 1926. She has a short steel cab very similar to the cab on an A5s, and cylinders that don't slope inward at the top. The last 60 built (6341-6400) were like this. I have not yet found a photo of a 1923-24 built B6sb. I had thought the changeover from the large cab to small cab and from inward sloping cylinders to outward sloping cylinders occurred in 1923-24, but I'm not sure. The 1926 built engines had power reverses as built. I'm not sure about any of the smaller engines. Time to do some more research! Doug __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 05:56:02 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] 1923-24 built B6sb had large cab, outward sloping cylinders Hello list, I was just looking at the Rails Northeast page (www.northeastrailfan.net) and found this shot of B6sb 4137 (Juniata c/n 3862, built 2/24, dropped 6/53). Here's the URL. http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr4137s.jpg If all of the 1923-24 B6sb were like this (with the PRR, trust, but get photos...grin!), the Bowser model is going to be most appropriate for a 1916-1917 built B6sb, such as the preserved 1670. I haven't found a shot of the right side of a 1923-24 built B6sb to see if they were built with power reverses...time to look at more pictures! Doug __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] TrucTrain trailers Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:42:23 -0500 Earl, The PRR did not initiate "TrucTrain" type service until 1954. The PRR did have some trucks and trailers used in the LCL business in major cities like New York and Philadelphia to provide pick up and delivery. The few photos I have seen of 1930's era trucks indicate that the angled "Pennsylvania Railroad" was in use back then. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Earl Myers" To: ; Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 12:34 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] TrucTrain trailers > Gebts; > Another PRR circa 1944 question.....what type of "truc-train" equipment > existed then by whatever name? Anybody know where photos exist of that type > of trailering in that era? > Earl Myers > PRR in 1943/44 > Canton District > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 10:16 PM > Subject: [PRR] TrucTrain trailers > > > > In a message dated 11/22/02 11:38:20 AM Central Standard Time, > > jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > > > > << Anyone know (or have) a source of roster information for TrucTrain > > trailers? > > > > Though I am interested in the 26-28' versions that were around in 1954, I > > think it would be worthwhile to put all the info on Keystone Crossings if > it > > is available somewhere. > > > > Also, anyone know who the manufacturer of the many trailers were? Are any > of > > them "popular"/"standard" trailers that were common elsewhere? >> > > > > In addition to the Keystone article mentioned, PPIII has some photos of > > trucks. I believe Fruehauf was the main manufacturer of PRR trucks. I > have > > bought a couple of the Sheepscot models and am waiting for the Fruehauf > and > > other trailers of OnTrak (sp?) to come out (see Walthers and Bethlehem Car > > Works websites). But those are HO. > > > > I have been accumulating enough "stuff" to do a TrucTrain. Finally gonna > > build the 10 Walthers F39s in the apartment storage locker to run a > TrucTrain > > at the club. > > > > Bob Zoeller > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 10:24:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] South Fork,Paint Creek & Shade Creek Branchs Pat......... I dug out the PRR South Fork Branch track charts for 1950 and 1957. The the 1950 track chart has the line all the way to Ashtola. "End of Main Track" at Rummel. From there to Ashtola is classed a siding. The 1957 charts show lines ends at Rummel. Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 11:20:38 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/23/02 --part1_bb.29f06969.2b1104d6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Somebody asked a question about the "Oxford" auction Thanksgiving eve. It's in "New Oxford" (Oxford is another town in south easter PA) and it's sponsored by the Conestoga or Conewago or Conea something model railroad club. It cost's $2 to get in, starts at 7 p.m and runs until??? I've been attending for 30 years and used to hang around until 1-2 a.m. The last 5 or so boring though and I find myself leaving earlier and earlier; last year around 9:30. It's become a mostly paper auction but occasionally something worthwhile pops up like some nice cars and or maybe even a locomotive. Once in awhile, there's a realy find in the paper or other railroad collectible. You pays your money and you takes your chances. Most of my operating group and other folks I know, attend for the social nature. Good food, good company. And, one other thing, the auctioneer is Bob Charles, past President of the NMRA. He is an honest to goodnest real auctioneer and keeps the auction moving and humorous. BOB MARTIN, President & General Manager Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) --part1_bb.29f06969.2b1104d6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Somebody asked a question about the "Oxford" auction Thanksgiving eve.  It's in "New Oxford" (Oxford is another town in south easter PA) and it's sponsored by the Conestoga or Conewago or Conea something model railroad club.

It cost's $2 to get in, starts at 7 p.m and runs until???  I've been attending for 30 years and used to hang around until 1-2 a.m.    The last 5 or so boring though and I find myself leaving earlier and earlier; last year around 9:30.  It's become a mostly paper auction but occasionally something worthwhile pops up like some nice cars and or maybe even a locomotive.  Once in awhile, there's a realy find in the paper or other railroad collectible.   You pays your money and you takes your chances.

Most of my operating group and other folks I know, attend for the social nature.  Good food, good company.  And, one other thing, the auctioneer is Bob Charles, past President of the NMRA.  He is an honest to goodnest real auctioneer and keeps the auction moving and humorous.

BOB MARTIN, President & General Manager
Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale)

--part1_bb.29f06969.2b1104d6_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rdhess10@aol.com Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 13:37:13 EST Subject: [PRR] Shark Nunber Boards --part1_90.2f82ae29.2b1124d9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Listers, I'm building an HO A-B set of PRR sharks with Hobbytown drives and Mantua metal shells. Can anyone tell me where to find number boards for the A unit? I Can't find the type needed in the Walthers catalog. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Bob Hess --part1_90.2f82ae29.2b1124d9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Listers,

      I'm building an HO A-B set of PRR sharks with Hobbytown drives and Mantua metal shells.  Can anyone tell me where to find number boards for the A unit?  I Can't find the type needed in the Walthers catalog.
      Any suggestions would be appreciated.  Thanks in advance.

Bob Hess --part1_90.2f82ae29.2b1124d9_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: [PRR] PRR SPF's in Texas Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 13:00:49 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007D_01C292F0.58AE00C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! There is going to be a first ever meeting of PRR SPF's in Texas. This first meeting will be on 7 December 2001 at the Railroad Museum at = 214 27th Street in Galveston TX. Because there's other stuff going on, = the island will be crowded - to say the least. Motels on the island = will be outrageously priced, find one on the mainland and drive down. = Traffic will be murder, so if interested in directions, etc. contact me = off-list. Even though this is starting off in the Eastern part of the state, we = welcome PRR SPF's from anywhere in the area. Maybe even those of you in = Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana and New Mexico may want to be a part of = this. One concept is to have a round robin meeting once, twice, three = or four times a year. All depending on what the group decides to do, = and where we all live. If we have enough PRRTHS members, we could = possibly form a chapter. Because this is brand new, the possibilities = are endless. But the main idea will be for us SPF's to get together. = Just because we're 1,546 miles from Harrisburg PA don't mean there = aren't PRR SPF's in this part of the world. :) and :-) and :~) Or = does that look like a smirk? Lastly, just because I'm sending this to "modelers" groups, don't mean = you "have to model"; if you don't "model", but have an interest, y'all = will be welcome. I met a train buff at a train show that did not model = at all, he just liked to come and "drool". He expressed an interest in = what we're doing, but doesn't have a PC. I don't know yet what he'll = do, but my point is that this is not "just" for modelers. It's for = SPF's - you know - us Slobbering Pennsy Freaks. I personally don't like = "Slobbering" or "Freaks", but rather "Superb Pennsy Fans"! :) Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF PS I've not contacted PRRTHS yet about chapter. I'm waiting till we = decide if that's what we really want; and how many are actual PRRTHS = members. ------=_NextPart_000_007D_01C292F0.58AE00C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi!
 
There is going to be a first = ever meeting=20 of PRR SPF's in Texas.
 
This first meeting will = be on 7=20 December 2001 at the Railroad Museum at 214 27th Street in = Galveston=20 TX.  Because there's other stuff going on, the island will be = crowded - to=20 say the least.  Motels on the island will be outrageously priced, = find one=20 on the mainland and drive down.  Traffic will be murder, so if = interested=20 in directions, etc. contact me off-list.
 
Even though this is starting off = in the=20 Eastern part of the state, we welcome PRR SPF's from anywhere in the = area. =20 Maybe even those of you in Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana and New Mexico = may want=20 to be a part of this.  One concept is to have a round robin meeting = once,=20 twice, three or four times a year.  All depending on what the group = decides=20 to do, and where we all live.  If we have enough PRRTHS = members, we=20 could possibly form a chapter.  Because this is brand new, the=20 possibilities are endless.  But the main idea will be for us SPF's = to get=20 together.  Just because we're 1,546 miles from Harrisburg PA don't = mean=20 there aren't PRR SPF's in this part of the world.  :) and :-)=20 and  :~)    Or does that look like a = smirk?
 
Lastly, just because I'm sending = this to=20 "modelers" groups, don't mean you "have to model"; if you=20 don't "model", but have an interest, y'all will be welcome.  I = met a=20 train buff at a train show that did not model at all, he just liked to = come and=20 "drool".  He expressed an interest in what we're doing, but doesn't = have a=20 PC.  I don't know yet what he'll do, but my point is that this is = not=20 "just" for modelers.  It's for SPF's - you know - us Slobbering = Pennsy=20 Freaks.  I personally don't like "Slobbering" or "Freaks", but = rather=20 "Superb Pennsy Fans"!  :)
 
Morgan = Bilbo
Ferroequinologist
PRRTHS=20 #1204 and SPF
 
PS  I've not contacted = PRRTHS yet about=20 chapter.  I'm waiting till we decide if that's what we really want; = and how=20 many are actual PRRTHS members.
------=_NextPart_000_007D_01C292F0.58AE00C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 18:32:23 EST Subject: [PRR] South Wind consists Does anyone have a consist for the South Wind in the earliest years of the NPdome era (when did that lease arrangement start, BTW?). Preferably one which gives the car and railroad owner. I have seen FEC fluted baggage cars, for example. Thanks, Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser B6 Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 17:21:10 -0700 John and list, Just wondering if somebody out there could do the modern cab in brass as an etching (to replace the cast cab on these locomotives), or even better do both cabs as brass etchings. This would go far towards making these models more up-to date. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Sat, 23 Nov 2002 08:09:47 +0000 "John H. Wright" wrote: > Donald E. Harper, Jr wrote: > > >I just took a look at the photo on the Bowser web page. > SURELY they aren't > >going to offer this engine with brass drivers! > > > >Don Harper > >Texas A&M Marine Lab > >5007 Avenue U > >Galveston, TX 77551 > >409/740-4540 > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > > > > > Seems an odd colour for brass IMHO ...... more of a > phosphor-bronze colour ...... though the limitations of > colour rendition via all the digital stuff might not be > reliable. Brass wheels would be a retrograde step and > would need to be replaced on any model I acquired. > > I look on the Bowser locos as kits with potential, > ...... the latest ones that is. The B6sb seems to fit > this bill. The older Bowser ( old Penn Line stuff etc. ) > have too many crude innacuracies in boiler / firebox > shape that rule them out as far as I'm concerned. But > their latest offerings from the A5 onwards are much > better. > > The bottom line for me, is how would the B6sb look > alongside my brass locos. Looking at the web site > picture I would say OK. bearing in mind that a lot of > metal would need to be ground away to 'thin' down > appearance ...... cab, footplate etc. and detail parts > added. This work is part and parcel of what you need to > do with a Bowser kit IMHO, and should be accepted as > such. If you can't / won't do this ...... then you > can't expect the loco to look as good as latest plastic > 'steam'. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:43:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser B6 Bill, A company used to make these. Mellor. Great little items. Now defunct. Can still be found at train shows if your lucky... Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 20:57:25 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: [PRR] More TRS trains Hello, Al described the arranged westward movement of empty tank cars, reefers and stock cars in the 20's and 30's on the PRR, and noted that the service was no longer listed in the 1950 ETTs. My June 20, 1943 copy of the Philadelphia Division "Special Instructions to Time-table No. 4" includes the following four daily TRS trains. TRS-5: the only listed time is BANKS, 2:00 am TRS-15: Ma 10:45 am, Earnest 11:25 am, Park 12:30, Columbia 2:30 pm, Harris 4:30 pm, Banks 7:30 pm TRS-39: Paoli 1:00 pm, Park 1:50 pm, Columbia 3:45 pm, (arrive) Harris 6:00 pm TRS-9: Paoli 5:00 pm, Park 6:00 pm, Columbia 8:10 pm, Day 10:30 pm, Banks 1:45 am Thanks to Al for pointing out another interesting piece of operation...I guess that the the afternoon will see two of these trains pass COLA in just slightly over an hour! So, I DO have a place for all the reefers I've been eyeing! Now for a few correct PRR stock cars...I need K7As and K8s, since I don't think solid blocks of NP cars (the Central Valley kit) or P2K cars would be accurate! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce. F. Smith ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:03:54 EST Subject: [PRR] B-6 and steam loco cabs With all the talk about the cast on cabs on Bowser loco's and the used to be Mellor brass cabs why doesn't somebody consider gettin a manufacturer to make a plastic PRR steam cab ala Cannon diesel cabs. Great detail possibilitie sinside and out. Easy to work on and takes weight off steamers where it's not needed ( behind the drivers ). A number of people have complained about the pulling capabilities of the new steamers that have plastic boilers. The Bowser line has the metal boiler for weight where it is needed. Imagine a Bowser I-1 boiler minus stack, cab. running boards with seperate detail parts for these items. A can motor with a gearbox, all driver electrical pickup and a plastic tender shell with nickel silver wheels ,metal frame with holes for sound speakers. All wheel pickup on tender and seperate detail parts for tender. You'd have a steamer that pulls is easier to detail ( Bowser already makes all the detail parts ) and is maintainable with replacement parts . Would be nice wouldn't it. ------------------------ Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] (PRR) Economics Survey. Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 08:21:03 -0500 Group, I was given some advice to create a survey to help my Economics Final paper. I appreciate all the responses so far! Please indulge me once again, This I hope will put all the responses on an even playing field. I will give a week time frame to get the survey back to me. Please have them back to me by December 1st. I will then post the results of the survey. Well here it goes. I have geared the questions so that is doesn't matter what scale you are working in, but probably the majority of us are either N or HO. Please state scale you work in first then answer the following questions. 1. How many of us started modeling trains because you yourself or an ancestor used to work on the railroad or the PRR in particular? Please chose one.... Yourself Ancestor Other reason 2. When purchasing modeling equipment, please rate the following highest to lowest the priority you put on these particular items. Price Quality Detail Accuracy DCC Compatible Era 3. Which do you prefer Kit or RTR? All other factors being equal.... Such as Price, Quality, ETC... 4. Which do you prefer Kit or RTR in the present state of manufactured products? 5. What manufacturer gives the most bang for your buck in PRR equipment? Price vs Quality/Accuracy 6. What manufacturer does the best job at representing, our love, the PRR? If price wasn't a factor. 7. Where do you prefer to purchase? E-bay, Local hobby shop, Mail order, Etc. 8. Has your purchasing habits changed in the last 3 years? If so How & Why? 9. Do you feel your spending habits have changed since 9-11? Yes No? 10. Has any other siginificant change or changes in your life changed your spending habits? Examples Building a new home, Children, Retiring. 11. Which Era do you model? Steam, Diesel, Transition, Electric? 12. Do you have your own layout? Yes, No. If no do you belong to a club? _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 08:59:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] B-6 and steam loco cabs Ken, Geez, (except for a metal boiler) you just described a BLI Loco perfectly! . I would much rather see them make an I1sa with their technology rather than Bowser (or someone else) upgrading their rendition of an I1. With their new Hudson, and with no real noticeable weight of that loco, it pulls considerably well. An I1sa with smaller drivers with BLI technolgy, I can imagine a nice 40-50 car train with no problem at all. And sound to boot!....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] More TRS trains Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 09:13:13 -0600 Hi! And now you're leading to what I wanted to know. The stock cars. Which ones did make it on the PRR? ie, which other railroads: C&NW? NP? MILW? Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] B-6 and steam loco cabs Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 08:41:39 -0700 Gary, Ken and all, My only complaint about the BLI line is that if you miss the run you are sh*t out of luck...currently I've been unemployed for almost a year and cannot justify spending the money for one or more of the M1a's that I would truly love to get. Once they are gone, that's it folks!...it pay collector's prices on Ebay. At least with Bowser they are around for a while... Bill Daniels Deepest, darkest, Tucson, AZ On Sun, 24 Nov 2002 08:59:51 -0500 (EST) mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) wrote: > Ken, > > Geez, (except for a metal boiler) you just > described a BLI Loco > perfectly! . I would much rather see them make an I1sa > with their > technology rather than Bowser (or someone else) upgrading > their > rendition of an I1. With their new Hudson, and with no > real noticeable > weight of that loco, it pulls considerably well. An I1sa > with smaller > drivers with BLI technolgy, I can imagine a nice 40-50 > car train with > no problem at all. And sound to boot!....Gary > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:51:02 -0500 From: Nick Kulp Subject: [PRR] Re: B-6 and steam loco cabs --=====================_5718171==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Ken, Several years ago MDC made a more accurate boiler for the PRR E6. There was even an article in MR on using the Bowser mechanism, which was far superior to the MDC mechanism, and cross-kitting the two. MDC had a few plastic parts that mated up with the cast boiler. I actualy did the conversion and it looked and ran well. At one time I had one of every Bowser loco available in PRR with the exception of the M1a, G5, and A5. They were not available yet. The main reason I had them was because they were affordable compared to brass, the only othe alternative for PRR steam. I learned how to make the mechanisms run smoothly and they were a lot of fun to detail, although my skills could use more work. The biggest problem with Bowser locos is the fact that they still do not provide a can motor and their fantastic Pittman motors simply draw too much current for DCC. I have converted two 2-10-0 I1s to can motors but the effort almost required a complete machine shop. I added an NWSL 36-1 gearbox and can motor, plus a cam for sound (never installed). The engines run beautifully but my passion is operation, not the building of the equipment. I currently have another 2-10-0 mechanism and a Cary boiler with all of the brass parts needed to build it, including the air tanks for the pilot. I will probably never build it because I have two brass decapods that fill my requirements. They run smoother and do not require assembly. I also bought them at a lower price than a Bowser kit without detail parts. I know that is unusual but it can still be done today if you are patient. I like Bowser since they are still made in the USA but they need to update their technology. Mantua was an early manufacturer that lost out because of this. I would hate to see this happen to Bowser. DCC compatibility is a big factor in today's market and Bowser just does not meet it. Just my opinion, Nick Kulp >With all the talk about the cast on cabs on Bowser loco's and the used to be >Mellor brass cabs why doesn't somebody consider gettin a manufacturer to make >a plastic PRR steam cab ala Cannon diesel cabs. Great detail possibilitie >sinside and out. Easy to work on and takes weight off steamers where it's not >needed ( behind the drivers ). A number of people have complained about the >pulling capabilities of the new steamers that have plastic boilers. The >Bowser line has the metal boiler for weight where it is needed. Imagine a >Bowser I-1 boiler minus stack, cab. running boards with seperate detail parts >for these items. A can motor with a gearbox, all driver electrical pickup and >a plastic tender shell with nickel silver wheels ,metal frame with holes for >sound speakers. All wheel pickup on tender and seperate detail parts for >tender. You'd have a steamer that pulls is easier to detail ( Bowser already >makes all the detail parts ) and is maintainable with replacement parts . >Would be nice wouldn't it. ------------------------ Ken McCorry > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >End of PRR-Talk Digest > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --=====================_5718171==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Ken,

Several years ago MDC made a more accurate boiler for the PRR E6. There was even an article in MR on using the Bowser mechanism, which was far superior to the MDC mechanism, and cross-kitting the two. MDC had a few plastic parts that mated up with the cast boiler. I actualy did the conversion and it looked and ran well.

At one time I had one of every Bowser loco available in PRR with the exception of the M1a, G5, and A5. They were not available yet. The main reason I had them was because they were affordable compared to brass, the only othe alternative for PRR steam. I learned how to make the mechanisms run smoothly and they were a lot of fun to detail, although my skills could use more work. The biggest problem with Bowser locos is the fact that they still do not provide a can motor and their fantastic Pittman motors simply draw too much current for DCC. I have converted two 2-10-0 I1s to can motors but the effort almost required a complete machine shop. I added an NWSL 36-1 gearbox and can motor, plus a cam for sound (never installed). The engines run beautifully but my passion is operation, not the building of the equipment.

I currently have another 2-10-0 mechanism and a Cary boiler with all of the brass parts needed to build it, including the air tanks for the pilot. I will probably never build it because I have two brass decapods that fill my requirements. They run smoother and do not require assembly. I also bought them at a lower price than a Bowser kit without detail parts. I know that is unusual but it can still be done today if you are patient.

I like Bowser since they are still made in the USA but they need to update their technology. Mantua was an early manufacturer that lost out because of this. I would hate to see this happen to Bowser. DCC compatibility is a big factor in today's market and Bowser just does not meet it.

Just my opinion,
Nick Kulp


With all the talk about the cast on cabs on Bowser loco's and the used to be
Mellor brass cabs why doesn't somebody consider gettin a manufacturer to make
a plastic PRR steam cab ala Cannon diesel cabs. Great detail possibilitie
sinside and out. Easy to work on and takes weight off steamers where it's not
needed ( behind the drivers ). A number of people have complained about the
pulling capabilities of the new steamers that have plastic boilers. The
Bowser line has the metal boiler for weight where it is needed. Imagine a
Bowser I-1 boiler minus stack, cab. running boards with seperate detail parts
for these items. A can motor with a gearbox, all driver electrical pickup and
a plastic tender shell with nickel silver wheels ,metal frame with holes for
sound speakers. All wheel pickup on tender and seperate detail parts for
tender.  You'd have a steamer that pulls is easier to detail ( Bowser already
makes all the detail parts ) and is maintainable with replacement parts .
Would be nice wouldn't it. ------------------------   Ken McCorry

----------------------------------------------------------------------
End of PRR-Talk Digest

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
--=====================_5718171==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:37:32 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: B-6 and steam loco cabs In a message dated 11/24/02 9:56:57 AM Central Standard Time, caseyj@mail.igateway.com writes: << I currently have another 2-10-0 mechanism and a Cary boiler with all of the brass parts needed to build it, including the air tanks for the pilot. I will probably never build it because I have two brass decapods that fill my requirements. They run smoother and do not require assembly. I also bought them at a lower price than a Bowser kit without detail parts. I know that is unusual but it can still be done today if you are patient. >> I have exactly your experience. A Cary boiler, every kind of brass detail part, a very smooth running open-frame Bowser mechanism, a replacement Helix Humper. And even a brass version of the original tenders that went with the loco (all gone by at least 1949), picked up on eBay. However, for $200, I bought a United I1, $30 NWSL low-speed high torque can motor, and with a paint job I was off and running with one of the smoothest runners on our club layout, top speed (thanks to the motor), about 60mph at full throttle (fun to let the throttle jockeys try and run fast :-)). The Cary boiler,et al, sit. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:44:52 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR SPF's in Texas Hopefully at some point you will want to ride in the former PRR P70 coaches on the "Hill Country Flyer" running out of the Austin, TX area. Great fun. Dennis PRRT&HS #1974 In a message dated 11/23/02 3:10:50 PM, PennsyNut@hotmail.com writes: << Hi! There is going to be a first ever meeting of PRR SPF's in Texas. This first meeting will be on 7 December 2001 at the Railroad Museum at 214 27th Street in Galveston, TX. Because there's other stuff going on, the island will be crowded - to say the least. Motels on the island will be outrageously priced, find one on the mainland and drive down. Traffic will be murder, so if interested in directions, etc. contact me off-list. Even though this is starting off in the Eastern part of the state, we welcome PRR SPF's from anywhere in the area. Maybe even those of you in Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana and New Mexico may want to be a part of this. One concept is to have a round robin meeting once, twice, three or four times a year. All depending on what the group decides to do, and where we all live. If we have enough PRRTHS members, we could possibly form a chapter. Because this is brand new, the possibilities are endless. But the main idea will be for us SPF's to get together. Just because we're 1,546 miles from Harrisburg, PA don't mean there aren't PRR SPF's in this part of the world. :) and :-) and :~) Or does that look like a smirk? Lastly, just because I'm sending this to "modelers" groups, don't mean you "have to model"; if you don't "model", but have an interest, y'all will be welcome. I met a train buff at a train show that did not model at all, he just liked to come and "drool". He expressed an interest in what we're doing, but doesn't have a PC. I don't know yet what he'll do, but my point is that this is not "just" for modelers. It's for SPF's - you know - us Slobbering Pennsy Freaks. I personally don't like "Slobbering" or "Freaks", but rather "Superb Pennsy Fans"! :) Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF PS I've not contacted PRRTHS yet about chapter. I'm waiting till we decide if that's what we really want; and how many are actual PRRTHS members. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: Re: [PRR] B-6 and steam loco cabs Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:36:49 -0500 My guess is that we will see re releases of these engines. Life-Like's steam engines have all been re released. With as much money as these companies are spending on tooling, it only makes financial sense to re release the engine every once in a while. While we might not see the M1a/b for a few years, my guess is that we will see it again. One of the reasons that there is a limited production run is so that they can move on to the next engine. So if you can't afford them now, just wait they will be back again. Eric > My only complaint about the BLI line is that if you miss > the run you are sh*t out of luck...currently I've been > unemployed for almost a year and cannot justify spending > the money for one or more of the M1a's that I would truly > love to get. Once they are gone, that's it folks!...it pay > collector's prices on Ebay. At least with Bowser they are > around for a while... > > Bill Daniels > Deepest, darkest, Tucson, AZ > > On Sun, 24 Nov 2002 08:59:51 -0500 (EST) > mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) wrote: > > Ken, > > > > Geez, (except for a metal boiler) you just > > described a BLI Loco > > perfectly! . I would much rather see them make an I1sa > > with their > > technology rather than Bowser (or someone else) upgrading > > their > > rendition of an I1. With their new Hudson, and with no > > real noticeable > > weight of that loco, it pulls considerably well. An I1sa > > with smaller > > drivers with BLI technolgy, I can imagine a nice 40-50 > > car train with > > no problem at all. And sound to boot!....Gary > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: B-6 and steam loco cabs Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:41:58 -0600 Hi! And that makes three of us! At least as for having that Cary boiler, all the brass parts, and smooth running mechanism - although mine just has the Pittman. Need to get can and convert. But, I don't have a brass I1. How many more PRR SPF's have a Penn-Line/Bowser mechanism, Cary boiler, and brass parts? Maybe we should form a "cry on my shoulder" club. Grin! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF "I currently have another 2-10-0 mechanism and a Cary boiler with all of the brass parts needed to build it, including the air tanks for the pilot. I will probably never build it because I have two brass decapods that fill my requirements. They run smoother and do not require assembly. I also bought them at a lower price than a Bowser kit without detail parts. I know that is unusual but it can still be done today if you are patient." "I have exactly your experience. A Cary boiler, every kind of brass detail part, a very smooth running open-frame Bowser mechanism, a replacement Helix Humper. And even a brass version of the original tenders that went with the loco (all gone by at least 1949), picked up on eBay." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:48:01 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] TrucTrain Trailers Andy and all, While in Naperville many of us discovered Stan Radarwysk (sp?) has produced the proper side rails that made the reproduction of the F30D so difficult. They are laser cut styrene and each strip (retail 5 bucks) will do one cars. He has also released a decal set for the PR version of the car which matches the stake pockets to a TEE. Nicely done. When I was doing the Scuttlebutt Column I did several write ups on Stan's line of products and BTW Stan will be in Cocoa Beach this January, anyone here planning on going? Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: [PRR] PRR SPF's in Texas/Southwest Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:39:28 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C293B6.872E88E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All! Don said: "We need to determine some of this BEFORE the meeting. A lot = of prospective members aren't able to attend. OK y'all. Who is = interested in forming a chapter to be named later, and how long have you been a member of the = PRRT&HS. I am, and have been a member since 1997 (I think - have to = look at my card at home). There's one. Do I hear others?" >From what I have, Charles Bowman, Bob Hornsby, Bill Laird, Dominic = Mazoch, Chris Sawicki, you Don Harper and I Morgan Bilbo are members. = Also some others that have just joined, so not named here. Since what years? I can't even = remember how long I've been a member. But that makes seven. We need 10 = I think? I don't know yet how many years we must have been a member. So, as Don says"LET'S HERE FROM YOU". We need your member number and = either the year you joined or how many years. I am inclined to think a = "guess" is going to be okay. Especially if you are like Don and I. It = was more than a few! :) And this request is to ALL who are interested = in a PRRTHS Texas/Southwest chapter. For those of you who are in OK, = AR, LA or NM; please don't hesitate to tell us what you think. The more = the merrier! Grin! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF PS This is a repeat of what I sent to the Yahoo groups. I can't send to = Yahoo from Hotmail, and can't send to PRR-Talk from Yahoo. ------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C293B6.872E88E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All!
 
Don said: "We = need to=20 determine some of this BEFORE the meeting. A lot of prospective members = aren't=20 able to attend. OK y'all. Who is interested in forming achapter to be = named=20 later, and how long have you been a member of the PRRT&HS. I am, = and have=20 been a member since 1997 (I think - have to look at my card athome). = There's=20 one. Do I hear others?"
 
From what I have, Charles Bowman, Bob Hornsby, Bill = Laird, Dominic=20 Mazoch, Chris Sawicki, you Don Harper and I Morgan Bilbo are members. = Also some=20 others thathave just joined, so not named here. Since what years? I = can't even=20 remember how long I've been a member. But that makes seven. We need 10 = I=20 think? I don't know yet how many years we must have been a=20 member.
 
So, as Don says"LET'S HERE = FROM=20 YOU".  We need your member number and either the year you joined or = how=20 many years.  I am inclined to think a "guess" is going to be=20 okay.  Especially if=20 you are like Don and I.  It was more than a few!  :)  And = this=20 request is to ALL who are interested in a PRRTHS Texas/Southwest = chapter. =20 For those of you who are in OK, AR, LA or NM; please don't hesitate to = tell us=20 what you think.  The more the merrier!  = Grin!
 
Morgan = Bilbo
Ferroequinologist
PRRTHS #1204 and = SPF
 
PS This is a repeat of what = I sent to=20 the Yahoo groups.  I can't send to Yahoo from Hotmail, and can't = send to=20 PRR-Talk from Yahoo.
------=_NextPart_000_0040_01C293B6.872E88E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: B-6 and steam loco cabs Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:24:03 -0700 Morgan and all, Some years ago I picked up a new Bowser I1s kit with the new boiler...having once owned a Cary boiler it is better detailed than the Cary boiler...crisper detail and the weight isn't that bad. The Helix Humper/Alco/Alliance Models drive is a good and reasonable upgrade to these. The cab thickness isn't all that bad either...as per my previous posts regarding this, either a plastic cab (a la Cannon) or etched brass would be an idea (anyone out there got any ideas about doing a plastic cab???) whose time has come. Ever since I discovered that PRR stacks (and folded up tender scoops) are available as brass castings I have looked again at Bowser kits...Doug Kisla's L1s shows how good these can look with some detailing (and Doug used an older boiler casting...the new ones are much better!) Interestingly enough, Jerry has mentioned that another company is extremely interested in doing some PRR steam in plastic...haven't heard anymore since the announcement but that is another idea. Between Bowser, BLI, the unknown company and old (and reasonably priced) brass the modeling future for PRR seems pretty secure...for now. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Sun, 24 Nov 2002 11:41:58 -0600 "PennsyNut" wrote: > Hi! > > And that makes three of us! At least as for having that > Cary boiler, all > the brass parts, and smooth running mechanism - although > mine just has the > Pittman. Need to get can and convert. But, I don't have > a brass I1. How > many more PRR SPF's have a Penn-Line/Bowser mechanism, > Cary boiler, and > brass parts? Maybe we should form a "cry on my shoulder" > club. Grin! > > Morgan Bilbo > Ferroequinologist > PRRTHS #1204 and SPF > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: B-6 and steam loco cabs Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 12:40:35 -0700 On Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:51:02 -0500 Nick Kulp wrote: > Several years ago MDC made a more accurate boiler for the > PRR E6. There was even an article in MR on using the > Bowser mechanism, which was far superior to the MDC > mechanism, and cross-kitting the two. MDC had a few > plastic parts that mated up with the cast boiler. I > actualy did the conversion and it looked and ran well. I've been tempted to do this, with the MDC boiler/cab/tender and a Bowser H9s drive...it should be doable. (just change the sand dome to a round dome from the saddle dome found on most of the E6s's) > > The > biggest problem with Bowser locos is the fact that they > still do not provide a can motor and their fantastic > Pittman motors simply draw too much current for DCC. I > have converted two 2-10-0 I1s to can motors but the > effort almost required a complete machine shop. Nick, Have you tried the Alliance motor repowering kit? While not exactly a drop-in (at least on the L1s I have) it dosen't require a machine shop to install, and it should improve operation and be DCC compatible. Bowser's new version of the DC-71 is also supposed to be DCC compatible and is equipped with a skewed armature, and is a $14.95 trade-in (with your old DC-71) from Bowser. As long as you already have the kit and all the parts to go, why not just go for it? I never have heard of a modeler who had "too many" locomotives! Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: B-6 and steam loco cabs Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 13:57:58 -0600 Hi! I will second Bill's motion "I never have heard of a modeler who had "too many" locomotives!". And further more, what is "too many"? Especially steamers. I suppose one could have too many diesels? Grin! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:16:49 -0400 From: A Samostie Subject: Re: [PRR] South Wind consists Dear Bob and Group, I notice that the 1930s era South Wind in HO scale is again being advertised by Challenger Imports, Ltd. See page 43 of December 2002 Railroad Model Craftsman. The Budd fluted-side consist is accompanied by a streamlined PRR K-4. The bullet-end observation car shown in the Challenger Imports ad features a keystone-shaped South Wind drumhead. Was the South Wind a "pure PRR consist" during this era? Or, did it always carry L&N, ACL and FEC cars in addition to PRR cars? If it did carry cars from the partner roads, were the cars all in the same paint scheme for "pool service", or mix-n-match? I always though it interesting that the NP dome cars found their way south during the winter months... during later years, the consist must have been a cavalcade of paint schemes. Cheers, Alan Samostie ELHS #3178 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > > Does anyone have a consist for the South Wind in the earliest years of the > NPdome era (when did that lease arrangement start, BTW?). Preferably one > which gives the car and railroad owner. I have seen FEC fluted baggage cars, > for example. > > Thanks, > > Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] TrucTrain Trailers Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 16:38:13 -0600 Greg, I was at Naperville, and somehow I missed these. Do you have any contact info for Stan? (I'm not going to even try to spell his last name.) Thanks, Andy Cich -----Original Message----- From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com [mailto:TGREGMRTN@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 11:48 AM To: asmiller@mitre.org; ajc5150@insightbb.com Cc: jerry@pennsyrr.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] TrucTrain Trailers Andy and all, While in Naperville many of us discovered Stan Radarwysk (sp?) has produced the proper side rails that made the reproduction of the F30D so difficult. They are laser cut styrene and each strip (retail 5 bucks) will do one cars. He has also released a decal set for the PR version of the car which matches the stake pockets to a TEE. Nicely done. When I was doing the Scuttlebutt Column I did several write ups on Stan's line of products and BTW Stan will be in Cocoa Beach this January, anyone here planning on going? Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 18:04:49 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR SPF's in Texas/Southwest --part1_57.14dfb410.2b12b511_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Guys. I'm here too! I'm a member and (unfortunately) live in Pasadena, Texas. There's another member close by, in Deer Park, who has been a member for a long time but isn't online. I'll get with him as I'm sure he'll want to attend. Another member, who has joined in the past 2 years, is in Houston and I'm sure he'll also want to be a part. So there's three more SPF's in the Houston area. Roger Huber --part1_57.14dfb410.2b12b511_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Guys.

I'm here too! I'm a member and (unfortunately) live in Pasadena, Texas. There's another member close by, in Deer Park, who has been a member for a long time but isn't online. I'll get with him as I'm sure he'll want to attend. Another member, who has joined in the past 2 years, is in Houston and I'm sure he'll also want to be a part. So there's three more SPF's in the Houston area.

Roger Huber --part1_57.14dfb410.2b12b511_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser B6 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 19:33:58 -0500 Gary: Do you know anyone that has an unbuilt Mellor cab for sale? I would like to make a pattern. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: Cc: "John H. Wright" ; Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 8:43 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser B6 > Bill, > > A company used to make these. Mellor. Great little items. Now > defunct. Can still be found at train shows if your lucky... Gary > > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 19:52:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Lew, Not anymore. I did have several when I was using Boswer locos for my roster. I applied them on an English 0-4-0 and a Cary M1a. Sold the locos and now don't have any. Included with these were not just the Cab overlay but also the Roof Hatch, Deflector, Window Frames and Arm Rest. Shouldn't be too hard for someone to experiment with sheet styrene and a Bowser Loco. I was hoping to get to my scratch built G Scale B6sb by now but nothing yet. I plan on using my Sunset HO B6sb for measurments when I do start. The Cab will be first up. Same technique should be able to get things acomplished in either scale.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:17:59 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] South Fork Branch stuff, somewhat long Pat McKinney recently raised a host of questions regarding the South Fork Branch, and its branches, most of which I can't answer. But in trying, I did find some things I thought interesting. The canal reservoir not only prevented rail access to the coal fields of northern Somerset county, it also blocked access for forestry. By 1890, the only major stands of virgin hemlock in the state were on the western flanl of Allegheny Mountain south of the Conemaugh River. This is covered in: Stemwinders in the Laurel Highlands Book #13 Logging Railroad Era in Pensylvania Benjamin B. F. Kline, Jr. Pages 1301 - 1335 (pages 1 - 35 of book 13) talk about the Babcock Lumber Co., the biggie, and several smaller operators. It appears from the material there that some of the PRR branches in that territory may have begun life as logging railroads. In particular, the Beaver Branch appears to have been built by the South Fork Lumber Co. in 1896 or 1897. That company was purchased by Allen P. Perley and Wm. Howard in Feb., 1898. In Feb., 1900, Howard sold out to Perley. The 1900 CT1000 nearly all customers on the Beaver Branch to be A. P. Perley. (The 1900 CT1000 is available online at kc.pennsyrr.com). Babcock used the name Ashtola and Allegheny Mountain for his railroad, which wandered all over the territory. His main mills were at Arrow and Ashtola. It is said that his trains used the PRR to connect the two mills until someone higher up in the PRR told him to stop doing that, whereupon he built his own line from near Ashtola to Arrow. It is also said that Babcock Shay's bailed out PRR locomotives which were overloaded. "A coal mine was opened at the near-by community of Havego. The combination of loaded coal cars from the mine and 25 cars of lumber from each of the Babcock mills occasionally overtaxed the capacity of the two Class I (H-1) locomotives assigned to the branch." Turning to the Valuation Report (available online at broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Corphist/), Development of Fixed Physical Property has: Acquired by construction: Beaver Branch near Coal Run Jct, Pa., extended 1905, 0.72 mi. South Fork Branch, South Fork to near Summerhill, Pa., 1906 1.99 mi. Ednie Branch near Coal Run Jct, Pa., extended 1914, 1.44 mi. Shade Creek Branch near Scalp Level, Pa., extended 1914, 8.75 mi. Reitz Branch, near Cairnbrook, Pa., 1915, 1.09 mi. Acquired by purchase and merger: From South Fork Railroad Company (of 1902),Apr. 1, 1903: Constructed by that company: near Llanfair, Pa., extension 1902 1.28 mi. Branch to Eureka #39 mine near Scalp Level, Pa., 1901-2, 6.80 mi. Constructed by South Fork Railroad Company (of 1890): South Fork to Llanfair, Pa., 1891-2 8.12 mi. Lovett to Lloydell, Pa., 1896-8, 4.05 mi. Constructed by Scalp Level Railroad Company: Lovett to Scalp Level, Pa., 1897 10.36 mi. Scalp Level to Ashtola, Pa., 1898 6.21 mi. Paint Creek Branch, near Scalp Level, Pa., 1897, 1.64 mi. Eureka Branch #31, near Scalp Level, Pa., 1898, 0.74 mi. Eureka Branch #32, near Scalp Level, Pa., 1898, 0.78 mi. Eureka Branch #34, near Scalp Level, Pa., 1898, 0.35 mi. Eureka Branch #35, near Scalp Level, Pa., 1898, 0.76 mi. Eureka Branch #36, near Scalp Level, Pa., 1899, 1.00 mi. Eureka Branch #37, near Scalp Level, Pa., 1900, 1.45 mi. Curry Mills Branch, near Windber, Pa., 1899, 1.40 mi. I have a copy of: Report of the Water Supply Commission of Pennsylvania 1912 Harrisburg, Pa. Wm. Stanley Ray, State Printer 1914 Chapter 11 is titled "Failures and Partial Failures of Dams in Pennsylvania" and of course, they report on the dam failure which precipitated the Johnstown Flood of 1889. That report concludes that the original construction of the dam allowed insufficient discharge through the spillway and that that was the cause of the failure. This is in contrast to more recent accounts which claim tha the dam failed due to improper repairs made some time after the dam passed into private ownership. Trusting that someone wil find this interesting, ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:21:41 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] South Fork Stuff, errata That should have been "...western flank of Allegheny Mountain"". I have no idea what a "flanl" is, and doubt that there is one in Cambria or Somerset Counties. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ShenangoRS@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 20:24:28 EST Subject: [PRR] Test --part1_41.27281614.2b12d5cc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Test --part1_41.27281614.2b12d5cc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Test --part1_41.27281614.2b12d5cc_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 22:04:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] South Wind consists --part1_f4.25385c8a.2b12ed39_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The original consist was always pure PRR -- at least through the 40's. The NP and other railroad cars didn't appear in the consist until the early 1950's at the earliest. I believe the NP car was brokered by Pullman. Chris Baker --part1_f4.25385c8a.2b12ed39_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The original consist was always pure PRR -- at least through the 40's.  The NP and other railroad cars didn't appear in the consist until the early 1950's at the earliest.  I believe the NP car was brokered by Pullman.

Chris Baker
 --part1_f4.25385c8a.2b12ed39_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 23:35:57 EST Subject: Re: RE: [PRR] TrucTrain Trailers Listers, The correct spelling is Stan Rydarowicz, and his phone number is 330-799-5321 in Youngstown, Ohio. I don't believe that he has e-mail yet. Dennis PRRT&HS #1974 In a message dated 11/24/02 6:46:28 PM, ajc5150@insightbb.com writes: << Greg, I was at Naperville, and somehow I missed these. Do you have any contact info for Stan? (I'm not going to even try to spell his last name.) Thanks, Andy Cich >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 00:21:08 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Update on RB/RBL in FGE two-striper paint (two phases, 1955 and 1964?) In a message dated 11/23/02 8:33:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:30:39 -0500 > From: "Andrew S. Miller" > Subject: Re: FGE-built RBL's (two black stripes) aren't reefers > > RickTipton@aol.com wrote: (in part) > > > . . . > > > As Greg points out, the two black stripes on a yellow car is an FGE-built > > (Alexandria VA shop?) insulated box car. These RBL's ("bunkerless > > refrigerators" with loader equipment for cartoned groceries etc.) from > FGE > > appeared around 1962. > > -- > > I could swear I saw a color photo on a Cedco PRR Calendar several years ago > showing a J1 pulling a train > headed by a pair of RBNX 40' cars with black stripes on a yellow car. > Were there still J's in 1962! My > guess is that that photo was taken much earlier and that these cars were > therefore first delivered in the > mid 50s > > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > Andy and all, I'm delighted to be wrong and that there is earlier evidence of the earlier of the two-stripe phases. I thought it was really flaky that I had photos of the one subphase from 1963 and then a second paint subphase featuring "For Greatest Efficiency" appeared the next year. Remember, I'm working from the published photos I have indexed for myself. I apologize for putting out some info that's less than accurate. Given that, let's see what we really know: 1. All the evidence available shows that the two-stripers were indeed RB (insulated boxcars) or RBL (insulated boxcars with loader equipment such as DF bars). Common is the "Insulated" or "Insulated - Cushioned" inscription on these cars, where FGE reefers say "Ventilator and Refrigerator" (circa 1929) or "Refrigerator" (postwar?). Thus, two-stripers aren't reefers. 2. When its member railroads needed specialized equipment, FGE was willing to buy/build it and lease it to a member. Since special traffic can be won and lost, this was an efficient arrangement, as the car could always be switched to another railroad's leased pool. And maintenance could be done in FGE's dedicated facilities. The same efficiency later caused a bigger pool of railroads to form TTX for specialty flatcars. 3. It would be interesting to find out the story of why PRR chose to acquire the X53 and X54/X54A insulated box cars when the FGE capability was already there. Finance? Power struggle? Empire building? Different specs? 4. There are pictures of 40 foot RBL's dressed in the first two-stripe scheme that overlapped PRR steam (I've received two mentions of pictures, although I haven't yet caught up with these pix myself). Andy (above) cites these cars with RBNX reporting marks. This strongly suggests the 40-foot RBL's came into the FGE fleet no later than 1956. 5. Notice I didn't say these 40 foot cars had PRR reporting marks -- that remains to be proved -- but I'm pretty sure I've seen slides of such cars, and there are some plausible entries in the ORER. 6. Reviewing some of my indexed pics, I find (in the PC Color Guide) three 40 foot cars in FGE paint. Although all have PC reporting marks as photographed, two of them are ACF cars built 1955, and one of these still carries the first two-stripe subphase. I'd love to accept this photo as an as-built paint scheme, but FGE repainted their fleet a lot more frequently than the average freight car, so we have to be cautious -- the photo shows fading paint in 1976, along with that built date of 1955. The second of these ACF 1955 cars shown was repainted in 1973 in the all-yellow, stripeless scheme introduced 1972. The third 40 footer was built 1961 by FGE Alexandria, and even though repainted in 1971 retains the earlier phase of FGE two-stripe scheme. 7. Another intriguing take from the PC Color Guide is that most of the FGE cars shown with PC reporting marks preceded the merger, and almost certainly carried PRR reporting marks as built. 8. Notice we're not seeing the second (1964) "For Greatest Efficiency" subphase of the two-stripers on any of these 40 foot cars. Certainly, it would be a squeeze to put the echeloned slogan onto the 40 foot car. Not proven, but it's possible the 1964 subphase was only used on 50 foot cars. If you include all roads participating in FGE leasing, there are many photos extant -- see the Color Guides for B&O, C&O, L&N, N&W, Southern, etc. 9. I have still found very few photos of the 50 foot FGE cars in the first (1955?) phase of two-stripe. I think this is because the lion's share of 50 footers were built 1964-1972. Of the second ("For Greatest Efficiency") two-stripe scheme, there are plenty of photos of 50 footers in various road names (RBNX and owner railroads) to show that this scheme was standard, numerous, and seen widely in its period. In fact, even though repainting into the economy all-yellow scheme started in 1972, this second phase of two-stripers was easy to photograph through the 70's. 10. BTW, the colors of these two-striper cars were described as "Pittsburgh Yellow", "Freight Car Color " (red), and "Black" in Craig Bossler's B&O Color Guide. It may be safe to assume the same colors were being applied to contemporary FGE reefers, whether ice-cooled or mechanical. 11. In the 1972-and-later period, FGE boxcars start looking a lot more orange in the pix I have. However, this is a hypothesis to be tested, not a statement of proven fact. Hope this makes sense to you. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> ·FREE Health Insurance Quotes-eHealthInsurance.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/1.voSB/RnFFAA/46VHAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 00:21:24 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] A FGE ice reefer paint recap. Some additional notes on FGE ice reefer lettering: I'm assuming that the main business of Fruit Growers Express was the refrigerated transport of fruits and vegetables originated on its members' lines. Fruit Growers Express ice reefers (AAR Mechanical Code RS, typically) looked almost the same throughout the periods of interest to most modelers. For a long time, FGE used the same red ends, yellow sides, and distinctive black lettering. Cars lettered in this scheme would say "Fruit Growers Express" on the left side, above the reporting marks. Note that after National Car Line was merged into FGE (what year?), the National Cars used the same lettering but with "National Car Line" on the left, and with MNX or other reporting marks. Some differences with time: 1. As shown in the 1940 Car Builders Cyclopedia, the FGEX car in 1929 had "Ventilator and Refrigerator" in three lines on the right side of the car. Fruit Growers Express is on the left, over a reporting marks package which is a sandwich of F.G.E.X. and the car number between two horizontal one inch lines. There's some reason to believe all this was still standard lettering in 1948, but I need more proof on this. 2. By 1952, the lettering on the right side had been simplified to "Refrigerator", which stayed with icers til the end. 3. By 1961, the reporting marks package on the left side of the carside had lost the two horizontal bars and the periods, and was just FGEX (or some other reporting marks) over the number. A minority of cars carried FHIX marks, but the ones I know are only on cars built by Pacifiic Car & Foundry. Since PCF was a builder for Western Fruit Express, there is some possibility these FHIX cars joined the FGE fleet as a result of FGE assuming the operating contract for WFE (again, year?). I'll bet the info in The Great Yellow Fleet, a book I don't have, would amplify the details of all this greatly. But I'll repeat, the FGE painting stayed very much the same from 1929 or earlier, down to the bitter end of ice reefers sometime in the 70's. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> ·FREE Health Insurance Quotes-eHealthInsurance.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/1.voSB/RnFFAA/46VHAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 00:21:08 EST Subject: [PRR] Update on RB/RBL in FGE two-striper paint (two phases, 1955 --part1_17a.125f41e5.2b130d44_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/23/02 8:33:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:30:39 -0500 > From: "Andrew S. Miller" > Subject: Re: FGE-built RBL's (two black stripes) aren't reefers > > RickTipton@aol.com wrote: (in part) > > > . . . > > > As Greg points out, the two black stripes on a yellow car is an FGE-built > > (Alexandria VA shop?) insulated box car. These RBL's ("bunkerless > > refrigerators" with loader equipment for cartoned groceries etc.) from > FGE > > appeared around 1962. > > -- > > I could swear I saw a color photo on a Cedco PRR Calendar several years ago > showing a J1 pulling a train > headed by a pair of RBNX 40' cars with black stripes on a yellow car. > Were there still J's in 1962! My > guess is that that photo was taken much earlier and that these cars were > therefore first delivered in the > mid 50s > > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > Andy and all, I'm delighted to be wrong and that there is earlier evidence of the earlier of the two-stripe phases. I thought it was really flaky that I had photos of the one subphase from 1963 and then a second paint subphase featuring "For Greatest Efficiency" appeared the next year. Remember, I'm working from the published photos I have indexed for myself. I apologize for putting out some info that's less than accurate. Given that, let's see what we really know: 1. All the evidence available shows that the two-stripers were indeed RB (insulated boxcars) or RBL (insulated boxcars with loader equipment such as DF bars). Common is the "Insulated" or "Insulated - Cushioned" inscription on these cars, where FGE reefers say "Ventilator and Refrigerator" (circa 1929) or "Refrigerator" (postwar?). Thus, two-stripers aren't reefers. 2. When its member railroads needed specialized equipment, FGE was willing to buy/build it and lease it to a member. Since special traffic can be won and lost, this was an efficient arrangement, as the car could always be switched to another railroad's leased pool. And maintenance could be done in FGE's dedicated facilities. The same efficiency later caused a bigger pool of railroads to form TTX for specialty flatcars. 3. It would be interesting to find out the story of why PRR chose to acquire the X53 and X54/X54A insulated box cars when the FGE capability was already there. Finance? Power struggle? Empire building? Different specs? 4. There are pictures of 40 foot RBL's dressed in the first two-stripe scheme that overlapped PRR steam (I've received two mentions of pictures, although I haven't yet caught up with these pix myself). Andy (above) cites these cars with RBNX reporting marks. This strongly suggests the 40-foot RBL's came into the FGE fleet no later than 1956. 5. Notice I didn't say these 40 foot cars had PRR reporting marks -- that remains to be proved -- but I'm pretty sure I've seen slides of such cars, and there are some plausible entries in the ORER. 6. Reviewing some of my indexed pics, I find (in the PC Color Guide) three 40 foot cars in FGE paint. Although all have PC reporting marks as photographed, two of them are ACF cars built 1955, and one of these still carries the first two-stripe subphase. I'd love to accept this photo as an as-built paint scheme, but FGE repainted their fleet a lot more frequently than the average freight car, so we have to be cautious -- the photo shows fading paint in 1976, along with that built date of 1955. The second of these ACF 1955 cars shown was repainted in 1973 in the all-yellow, stripeless scheme introduced 1972. The third 40 footer was built 1961 by FGE Alexandria, and even though repainted in 1971 retains the earlier phase of FGE two-stripe scheme. 7. Another intriguing take from the PC Color Guide is that most of the FGE cars shown with PC reporting marks preceded the merger, and almost certainly carried PRR reporting marks as built. 8. Notice we're not seeing the second (1964) "For Greatest Efficiency" subphase of the two-stripers on any of these 40 foot cars. Certainly, it would be a squeeze to put the echeloned slogan onto the 40 foot car. Not proven, but it's possible the 1964 subphase was only used on 50 foot cars. If you include all roads participating in FGE leasing, there are many photos extant -- see the Color Guides for B&O, C&O, L&N, N&W, Southern, etc. 9. I have still found very few photos of the 50 foot FGE cars in the first (1955?) phase of two-stripe. I think this is because the lion's share of 50 footers were built 1964-1972. Of the second ("For Greatest Efficiency") two-stripe scheme, there are plenty of photos of 50 footers in various road names (RBNX and owner railroads) to show that this scheme was standard, numerous, and seen widely in its period. In fact, even though repainting into the economy all-yellow scheme started in 1972, this second phase of two-stripers was easy to photograph through the 70's. 10. BTW, the colors of these two-striper cars were described as "Pittsburgh Yellow", "Freight Car Color " (red), and "Black" in Craig Bossler's B&O Color Guide. It may be safe to assume the same colors were being applied to contemporary FGE reefers, whether ice-cooled or mechanical. 11. In the 1972-and-later period, FGE boxcars start looking a lot more orange in the pix I have. However, this is a hypothesis to be tested, not a statement of proven fact. Hope this makes sense to you. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_17a.125f41e5.2b130d44_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/23/02 8:33:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 1
   Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 09:30:39 -0500
   From: "Andrew S. Miller" <asmiller@mitre.org>
Subject: Re: FGE-built RBL's (two black stripes) aren't reefers

RickTipton@aol.com wrote: (in part)

> . . .

> As Greg points out, the two black stripes on a yellow car is an FGE-built
> (Alexandria VA shop?) insulated box car.  These RBL's ("bunkerless
> refrigerators" with loader equipment for cartoned groceries etc.) from FGE
> appeared around 1962.

--

I could swear I saw a color photo on a Cedco PRR Calendar several years ago showing a J1 pulling a train
headed by a pair of RBNX 40' cars with black stripes on a yellow car.   Were there still J's in 1962! My
guess is that that photo was taken much earlier and that these cars were therefore first delivered in the
mid 50s


Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org



Andy and all,

I'm delighted to be wrong and that there is earlier evidence of the earlier of the two-stripe phases.  I thought it was really flaky that I had photos of the one subphase from 1963 and then a second paint subphase featuring "For Greatest Efficiency" appeared the next year.  Remember, I'm working from the published photos I have indexed for myself.  I apologize for putting out some info that's less than accurate.

Given that, let's see what we really know:
1.  All the evidence available shows that the two-stripers were indeed RB (insulated boxcars) or RBL (insulated boxcars with loader equipment such as DF bars).  Common is the "Insulated" or "Insulated - Cushioned" inscription on these cars, where FGE reefers say "Ventilator and Refrigerator" (circa 1929) or "Refrigerator" (postwar?).  Thus, two-stripers aren't reefers.

2.  When its member railroads needed specialized equipment, FGE was willing to buy/build it and lease it to a member.  Since special traffic can be won and lost, this was an efficient arrangement, as the car could always be switched to another railroad's leased pool.  And maintenance could be done in FGE's dedicated facilities.  The same efficiency later caused a bigger pool of railroads to form TTX for specialty flatcars.

3.  It would be interesting to find out the story of why PRR chose to acquire the X53 and X54/X54A insulated box cars when the FGE capability was already there.  Finance?  Power struggle?  Empire building?  Different specs?

4.  There are pictures of 40 foot RBL's dressed in the first two-stripe scheme that overlapped PRR steam (I've received two mentions of pictures, although I haven't yet caught up with these pix myself).  Andy (above) cites these cars with RBNX reporting marks.  This strongly suggests the 40-foot RBL's came into the FGE fleet no later than 1956.

5.  Notice I didn't say these 40 foot cars had PRR reporting marks -- that remains to be proved -- but I'm pretty sure I've seen slides of such cars, and there are some plausible entries in the ORER.

6.  Reviewing some of my indexed pics, I find (in the PC Color Guide) three 40 foot cars in FGE paint.  Although all have PC reporting marks as photographed, two of them are ACF cars built 1955, and one of these still carries the first two-stripe subphase.  I'd love to accept this photo as an as-built paint scheme, but FGE repainted their fleet a lot more frequently than the average freight car, so we have to be cautious -- the photo shows fading paint in 1976, along with that built date of 1955.  The second of these ACF 1955 cars shown was repainted in 1973 in the all-yellow, stripeless scheme introduced 1972.  The third 40 footer was built 1961 by FGE Alexandria, and even though repainted in 1971 retains the earlier phase of FGE two-stripe scheme.

7.  Another intriguing take from the PC Color Guide is that most of the FGE cars shown with PC reporting marks preceded the merger, and almost certainly carried PRR reporting marks as built.

8.  Notice we're not seeing the second (1964) "For Greatest Efficiency" subphase of the two-stripers on any of these 40 foot cars.  Certainly, it would be a squeeze to put the echeloned slogan onto the 40 foot car.  Not proven, but it's possible the 1964 subphase was only used on 50 foot cars.   If you include all roads participating in FGE leasing, there are many photos extant -- see the Color Guides for B&O, C&O, L&N, N&W, Southern, etc.

9.  I have still found very few photos of the 50 foot FGE cars in the first (1955?) phase of two-stripe.  I think this is because the lion's share of 50 footers were built 1964-1972.  Of the second ("For Greatest Efficiency") two-stripe scheme, there are plenty of photos of 50 footers in various road names (RBNX and owner railroads) to show that this scheme was standard, numerous, and seen widely in its period.  In fact, even though repainting into the economy all-yellow scheme started in 1972, this second phase of two-stripers was easy to photograph through the 70's.

10.  BTW, the colors of these two-striper cars were described as "Pittsburgh Yellow", "Freight Car Color " (red), and "Black" in Craig Bossler's B&O Color Guide.  It may be safe to assume the same colors were being applied to contemporary FGE reefers,  whether ice-cooled or mechanical.

11.  In the 1972-and-later period, FGE boxcars start looking a lot more orange in the pix I have.  However, this is a hypothesis to be tested, not a statement of proven fact.

Hope this makes sense to you.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_17a.125f41e5.2b130d44_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 00:21:24 EST Subject: [PRR] A FGE ice reefer paint recap. --part1_133.18107bb6.2b130d54_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some additional notes on FGE ice reefer lettering: I'm assuming that the main business of Fruit Growers Express was the refrigerated transport of fruits and vegetables originated on its members' lines. Fruit Growers Express ice reefers (AAR Mechanical Code RS, typically) looked almost the same throughout the periods of interest to most modelers. For a long time, FGE used the same red ends, yellow sides, and distinctive black lettering. Cars lettered in this scheme would say "Fruit Growers Express" on the left side, above the reporting marks. Note that after National Car Line was merged into FGE (what year?), the National Cars used the same lettering but with "National Car Line" on the left, and with MNX or other reporting marks. Some differences with time: 1. As shown in the 1940 Car Builders Cyclopedia, the FGEX car in 1929 had "Ventilator and Refrigerator" in three lines on the right side of the car. Fruit Growers Express is on the left, over a reporting marks package which is a sandwich of F.G.E.X. and the car number between two horizontal one inch lines. There's some reason to believe all this was still standard lettering in 1948, but I need more proof on this. 2. By 1952, the lettering on the right side had been simplified to "Refrigerator", which stayed with icers til the end. 3. By 1961, the reporting marks package on the left side of the carside had lost the two horizontal bars and the periods, and was just FGEX (or some other reporting marks) over the number. A minority of cars carried FHIX marks, but the ones I know are only on cars built by Pacifiic Car & Foundry. Since PCF was a builder for Western Fruit Express, there is some possibility these FHIX cars joined the FGE fleet as a result of FGE assuming the operating contract for WFE (again, year?). I'll bet the info in The Great Yellow Fleet, a book I don't have, would amplify the details of all this greatly. But I'll repeat, the FGE painting stayed very much the same from 1929 or earlier, down to the bitter end of ice reefers sometime in the 70's. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_133.18107bb6.2b130d54_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some additional notes on FGE ice reefer lettering:

I'm assuming that the main business of Fruit Growers Express was the refrigerated transport of fruits and vegetables originated on its members' lines. 

Fruit Growers Express ice reefers (AAR Mechanical Code RS, typically) looked almost the same throughout the periods of interest to most modelers.  For a long time, FGE used the same red ends, yellow sides, and distinctive black lettering.  Cars lettered in this scheme would say "Fruit Growers Express" on the left side, above the reporting marks.  Note that after National Car Line was merged into FGE (what year?), the National Cars used the same lettering but with "National Car Line" on the left, and with MNX or other reporting marks.  Some differences with time:

1.  As shown in the 1940 Car Builders Cyclopedia, the FGEX car in 1929 had "Ventilator and Refrigerator" in three lines on the right side of the car.  Fruit Growers Express is on the left, over a reporting marks package which is a sandwich of F.G.E.X. and the car number between two horizontal one inch lines.  There's some reason to believe all this was still standard lettering in 1948, but I need more proof on this.

2.  By 1952, the lettering on the right side had been simplified to "Refrigerator", which stayed with icers til the end.

3.  By 1961, the reporting marks package on the left side of the carside had lost the two horizontal bars and the periods, and was just FGEX (or some other reporting marks) over the number.  A minority of cars carried FHIX marks, but the ones I know are only on cars built by Pacifiic Car & Foundry.  Since PCF was a builder for Western Fruit Express, there is some possibility these FHIX cars joined the FGE fleet as a result of FGE assuming the operating contract for WFE (again, year?).

I'll bet the info in The Great Yellow Fleet, a book I don't have, would amplify the details of all this greatly.  But I'll repeat, the FGE painting stayed very much the same from 1929 or earlier, down to the bitter end of ice reefers sometime in the 70's.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_133.18107bb6.2b130d54_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 00:36:17 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] B-6 and steam loco cabs Bill- Don't be so sure about BLI and collector status. Look at P2K and the HH1. The HH1 was announced as a limited run model. Long and behold, it is being run again. If BLI is cracked up to be all that everyone is talking about, I find it difficult to believe they will not run a very successful locomotive like the PRR M class more than once. Speaking of BLI, is their any word on a definite date for the M class to arrive, outside of the advertisements in MR? GV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of billd@gci-net.com Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 10:42 AM To: Gary Mittner; KEMACPRR@aol.com Cc: PRR-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] B-6 and steam loco cabs Gary, Ken and all, My only complaint about the BLI line is that if you miss the run you are sh*t out of luck...currently I've been unemployed for almost a year and cannot justify spending the money for one or more of the M1a's that I would truly love to get. Once they are gone, that's it folks!...it pay collector's prices on Ebay. At least with Bowser they are around for a while... Bill Daniels Deepest, darkest, Tucson, AZ On Sun, 24 Nov 2002 08:59:51 -0500 (EST) mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) wrote: > Ken, > > Geez, (except for a metal boiler) you just > described a BLI Loco > perfectly! . I would much rather see them make an I1sa > with their > technology rather than Bowser (or someone else) upgrading > their > rendition of an I1. With their new Hudson, and with no > real noticeable > weight of that loco, it pulls considerably well. An I1sa > with smaller > drivers with BLI technolgy, I can imagine a nice 40-50 > car train with > no problem at all. And sound to boot!....Gary > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 22:40:00 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Kris Kollar built the beautiful L1s Morgan, Bill, list, Kris Kollar built the beautiful L1s Mike that appeared in Mainline Modeller in 2000. I don't want to steal credit for his excellent work. I highly recommend the articles, which appeared in the January and February 2000 issues, for anyone interested in detailing an L1s. I am using his article for reference as I built my model of L1s 520. I can only hope that my L1s will turn out anywhere near as nicely as his...grin! Doug __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 02:02:16 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Kris Kollar built the beautiful L1s Doug- The Logan Society of Model Engineers club in Souderton, PA just north of Philadelphia has a member who scratchbuilt 2 L1 locos. I gave up on evan thinking about his method when he tried to explain how he uses triginometry to lay out the boiler in 2 dimension before he rolls the brass into 3d. His work is incredible. His name is Rich Defres. GV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Doug Kisala Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 1:40 AM To: billd@gci-net.com; prr-talk@dsop.com; PennsyNut@hotmail.com Subject: [PRR] Kris Kollar built the beautiful L1s Morgan, Bill, list, Kris Kollar built the beautiful L1s Mike that appeared in Mainline Modeller in 2000. I don't want to steal credit for his excellent work. I highly recommend the articles, which appeared in the January and February 2000 issues, for anyone interested in detailing an L1s. I am using his article for reference as I built my model of L1s 520. I can only hope that my L1s will turn out anywhere near as nicely as his...grin! Doug __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 02:28:02 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: [PRR] Re: [Conductor] Other Alternatives - JMRI All: 1) I am in no way affilitated with JMRI, other than down-loading their product. 2) I have a Digitrax Chief connected to a PC via an MS-100. I have 11 NCE Switch-it's to control main-line switches. 3) The following are my opinions and do not reflect anything else I recently downloaded their product to test. I was VERY impressed with it. It is an excellent interface. It does not currently do the sort of CTC screens that other products can. It is well written, however. I have found no bugs. The only "problem" I had is that I first tried it on an old (PII - 133 Mhz) laptop running Windows 95. I have to idea how the program would have worked, because JAVA would not load on that machine. I then "upgraded" my computer on the layout to a PII - 150 Mhz desktop. JAVA loaded fine, their program better. I have watched the program evolve over the past several months (without actually being able to run it until last month), and JMRI seems very receptive to user input (Bob actually tried to help me get JAVA on the laptop -- without success -- because of the limitations of the laptop) and they have kept up with new product releases (such as screens for programming the newer decoders). In my opinion, it's worth the time to download and check it out. It seems real flexible also. More programming would probably be involved than a package already targeted for CTC use, but, it may be worth the time to look at it. That's my 2 cents worth for today. Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 00:47:52 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: B-6 and steam loco cabs Add another name to the list. We are a dying breed. Keep in mind though, we have the ability to think problems through in their entirety. Nowadays, you have people that take it off the shelf and run the model. God forbid the wheels are out of gauge, not that smooth of a running model, etc. these individuals sulk in misery because they don't know how to take an engine apart, let alone super detail and re-gear it. It is the same reason we took math in school, it helps one in problem solving. Evanthough computers and calculators do the work for the most part now. I don't care what anyone has to say about Bowser. They pull better than any other mgf of locomotives. Hack off the cab of the B6 and make your own out of brass stock. Take a NWSL riviter and add the details. I'm sure everyone who bakes a cake for the holidays will let everyone else know about their achievement. Do the same with your Bowser. I must agree they need to pick up the pace with technology. GV ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 03:17:27 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [Conductor] Other Alternatives - JMRI All: Sorry. I accidently sent this to the wrong list. With apologies, Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 06:48:09 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] comments on the Bowser B-6 Hi All, It is a little obvious that Bowser is thinking about or is making a B-6. There were too many "how good is to going to be" messages for me to read. I say JUST BE GLAD that Bowser is making one! If the quality is not up to your standards, buy a Key at $700.00! I too have many of the pieces in S Scale that Bowser has done. But they are all brass. You can buy them for $10-20.00 In spite of that fact, I have heard many should ofs, could ofs, and would be better if comments about their products. Take a $100,000.00 gamble of your own money, and produce something yourself! It's REAL fun. You get to do all the research, market analysis, and manufacturing, only to get trashed on a train email list because someone saw a pre-production sample model with a few errors at a train show. A B-6 is and has been my most wanted engine in S Scale for years. In reality, as with the X-29, I am probably going to be the one who has to import it at $1000.00 +. Just be happy with what you have guys..... It's only trains! Nuff said, Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: jngrailroad@attbi.com Subject: [PRR] Need PRR Tower Plans Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:53:00 +0000 Hello, I want to scratch build an HO PRR interlocking tower for my Johnstown & Gerryville Railroad and need a source for a set of plans. This model will be done in HO. I'm interested in a tower built of wood. Send my your ideas. Regards...John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 07:44:50 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Dispatcher needed for future op sessions Members, Last session was great. I plan to maintain a regular schedule for my op sessions now that the layout is back in operation after an almost 8 month hiatus. I have run into a snag. My dispatcher has become too busy to attend my sessions and that puts me in a considerably bad situation. I've installed Tortoise motors, at his request, and NCE SwitchIt devices to almost all of my mainline switches so he could control them while dispatching (remember, he is a NS dispatcher and you know they are control freaks ). Since NS has taken so many dispatchers out of service, his schedule has become random so he cannot commit to being at my sessions any longer. He has also started to hold his own monthly op sessions on his new layout and I am sure that also has a lot to do with his free time and availability. The dispatcher position is a semi-critical position if operators know how to throw switches with their throttles, but I don't know how the sessions would be without him. I use car cards for traffic movement and I used to use ShipIt but it proved to be too rigid. I have operated on layouts without a dispatcher and enjoyed it but I know some operators do not care for this method. The dispatcher sits at his desk and cannot see the layout but watches a monitor that shows occupancy, switch position, and signal aspect. There are some dark areas on the layout but that is being remedied. I have just ordered the last two cards for the computer interface. That will complete the C/MRI installation. Detectors and signals must be built and installed but that will happen in time. The same situation has occured with my own work crew members. They have built their own layouts over the past two or three years and now hold their own op sessions on Saturdays. Living in the Harrisburg area with the small number of modelers that enjoy realistic operation, the sessions have started to conflict with the available crew members in the area. I am currently looking for serious modelers willing to work on my layout two Saturdays per month on a regular basis. The work sessions are held at 7:00PM and usually last until 10:00-10:30PM. Depending what we get into, thay can last longer. Because of the large size of the layout I require help to complete projects for the op sessions. Regular work crew members get first bid at op session positions and also have the benefit of home-made treats during the work sessions. There is no financial obligation to join the work sessions but there is a time commitment. The op sessions require a radio for communications purposes and I recommend the purchase of a Digitrax throttle for them as well. I have a few spares but the crewmen's needs overwhelm them in a short time. I make this offer to modelers that do not or cannot have a layout but want to work on a large club-sized layout without a financial obligation or club politics. Since I foot the bills, I have the final word on project priority. There is plenty of electronics work, as well as structure-building, track-laying (some hand-laying), and scenery. Scenery is the lowest priority since that does not help with the actual physical plant required for op sessions although there is scenery on several portions of the layout. Fortunately, Thanks to other lists I belong to, I have a decent number of people that are willing to travel to join the op sessions and they are not affected. I can usually get the 8-12 operators necessary for my sessions. If there is anyone that would like to become the dispatcher for future op sessions or join the work crew, please contact me off-list at caseyj@igateway.com I live in the Harrisburg, Pa area and we operate on the third Saturday of the month at 1:00PM Thanks, Nick Kulp http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:04:05 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Need PRR Tower Plans From: Jerry Britton On 11/25/02 6:53 AM, jngrailroad@attbi.com (jngrailroad@attbi.com) wrote: > I want to scratch build an HO PRR interlocking tower for my Johnstown & > Gerryville Railroad and need a source for a set of plans. This model will be > done in HO. I'm interested in a tower built of wood. Send my your ideas. The new book on PRR structures (from Highlands Station) has plans. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Need PRR Tower Plans Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:07:44 -0500 Buy the Gloor Craft "Jacks" Tower. It's wood, has a bay, and is a nice size. It's not scratchbuilding but it is close enough. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: jngrailroad@attbi.com [mailto:jngrailroad@attbi.com] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 6:53 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Need PRR Tower Plans Hello, I want to scratch build an HO PRR interlocking tower for my Johnstown & Gerryville Railroad and need a source for a set of plans. This model will be done in HO. I'm interested in a tower built of wood. Send my your ideas. Regards...John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] comments on the Bowser B-6 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:53:00 -0500 Dear friends: I have been listening to the negative bullshit about the shortcomings of model train manufacturer's products for most of the latter part of my life, and I am tired of hearing the same whining over and over. When I first started in model railroading, MOST of the PRR models had to be scratch built, you had to take the very little that was available and kitbash it into whatever you could. . Many people made very credible X29s from cardstock, shim wood and brass and aluminum foil/sheeting. You did the best you could with the rivet detail. One trick was to layout the rivets on a sheet of aluminum foil with a pencil point and glue it to cardstock. My buddies and I got together and mass produced about 100 PRR three bay hoppers this way for our layouts. We were very appreciative of English , Penn Line and Bowser kit manufacturers and built a lot of Bowser products. We made our own super details for them (custom brass parts were hard to come by) out of filed solder bar stock and brass rod turned in a hand drill (read that NOT electric) shaped with jewelers files. I used to have several accurately super detailed Bowser locos with really fine, thin cabs and walkways, because I made replacement cabs from laminated index cards with rivets embossed on the outer layer of cards with a blunt pin. These cabs had open hatches, armrests, handrails, seats, cab curtains and tender aprons for the firemen. Now I'm older and even though I can afford some of the "good stuff". I still appreciate seeing an article about how to super detail a Bowser loco. If you think a cab is too thick, then make one that is thinner. It doesn't take that long to do, but you have use more than more than your reflex medulla coupled to a flapping tongue to achieve it. NOW, darn it, quit-yur-bichin and get to work! Lets see how many of you complainers are willing to buy a B6 and make it look like a B6 from a prototype photo? Maybe we should have a separate model category at the PRRT&HS conference in May of 2004 with a society offered cash prize for the best reworked Bowser loco? Maybe money from this group could be offered for the prize. That might be a better use for the cyber dues than the nebulous stuff that has been considered, and will have a greater impact on the hobby of building modeling railroad equipment. The manufacturers need our ongoing support, first in getting the info to manufacture, then our support to buy the product and also our support to show others in the hobby how to CHANGE or MODIFY the things that aren't to the degree of scale we think they should be, CHEAPLY, using COMMIN materials. Send these project results into the railroad magazines with a nicely written article of the kitbash methods used. That will show everybody and get more youngsters involved. That will sell more products. That will encourage the manufacturers to make more different models. That will make all of us happy. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Lane" To: "PRR Modeling" ; "PRR Talk" Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 6:48 AM Subject: [PRR] comments on the Bowser B-6 > Hi All, > > It is a little obvious that Bowser is thinking about or is making a B-6. > There were too many "how good is to going to be" messages for me to read. I > say JUST BE GLAD that Bowser is making one! If the quality is not up to your > standards, buy a Key at $700.00! I too have many of the pieces in S Scale > that Bowser has done. But they are all brass. You can buy them for $10-20.00 > In spite of that fact, I have heard many should ofs, could ofs, and would be > better if comments about their products. > > Take a $100,000.00 gamble of your own money, and produce something yourself! > It's REAL fun. You get to do all the research, market analysis, and > manufacturing, only to get trashed on a train email list because someone saw > a pre-production sample model with a few errors at a train show. > > A B-6 is and has been my most wanted engine in S Scale for years. In > reality, as with the X-29, I am probably going to be the one who has to > import it at $1000.00 +. > > Just be happy with what you have guys..... It's only trains! > > Nuff said, > > Bill > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:10:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] South Fork Branch stuff, somewhat long Bob and Pat. Thanks for really confusing me. I didn't realize the "SO" Branch was made up of so many different lines. What a bowl of spaghetti! -----anyway Bob wrote: "Acquired by construction: South Fork Branch, South Fork to near Summerhill, Pa., 1906 1.99 mi." Is this the "Flyover" track that connected at "W"? The distance sounds right. -----------Mark L-------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] comments on the Bowser B-6 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:17:30 -0600 Fortunately, I don't think the art described below is entirely lost. I seem to recall several recent convention winners in the steam locomotive class that were upgraded Bowsers, and they were very hard to tell from a brass import. -----Original Message----- From: Lewis J. Matt PhD [mailto:lmatt@alltel.net] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 7:53 AM To: Bill Lane; PRR Modeling; PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] comments on the Bowser B-6 Dear friends: I have been listening to the negative bullshit about the shortcomings of model train manufacturer's products for most of the latter part of my life, and I am tired of hearing the same whining over and over. When I first started in model railroading, MOST of the PRR models had to be scratch built, you had to take the very little that was available and kitbash it into whatever you could. . Many people made very credible X29s from cardstock, shim wood and brass and aluminum foil/sheeting. You did the best you could with the rivet detail. One trick was to layout the rivets on a sheet of aluminum foil with a pencil point and glue it to cardstock. My buddies and I got together and mass produced about 100 PRR three bay hoppers this way for our layouts. We were very appreciative of English , Penn Line and Bowser kit manufacturers and built a lot of Bowser products. We made our own super details for them (custom brass parts were hard to come by) out of filed solder bar stock and brass rod turned in a hand drill (read that NOT electric) shaped with jewelers files. I used to have several accurately super detailed Bowser locos with really fine, thin cabs and walkways, because I made replacement cabs from laminated index cards with rivets embossed on the outer layer of cards with a blunt pin. These cabs had open hatches, armrests, handrails, seats, cab curtains and tender aprons for the firemen. Now I'm older and even though I can afford some of the "good stuff". I still appreciate seeing an article about how to super detail a Bowser loco. If you think a cab is too thick, then make one that is thinner. It doesn't take that long to do, but you have use more than more than your reflex medulla coupled to a flapping tongue to achieve it. NOW, darn it, quit-yur-bichin and get to work! Lets see how many of you complainers are willing to buy a B6 and make it look like a B6 from a prototype photo? Maybe we should have a separate model category at the PRRT&HS conference in May of 2004 with a society offered cash prize for the best reworked Bowser loco? Maybe money from this group could be offered for the prize. That might be a better use for the cyber dues than the nebulous stuff that has been considered, and will have a greater impact on the hobby of building modeling railroad equipment. The manufacturers need our ongoing support, first in getting the info to manufacture, then our support to buy the product and also our support to show others in the hobby how to CHANGE or MODIFY the things that aren't to the degree of scale we think they should be, CHEAPLY, using COMMIN materials. Send these project results into the railroad magazines with a nicely written article of the kitbash methods used. That will show everybody and get more youngsters involved. That will sell more products. That will encourage the manufacturers to make more different models. That will make all of us happy. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Lane" To: "PRR Modeling" ; "PRR Talk" Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 6:48 AM Subject: [PRR] comments on the Bowser B-6 > Hi All, > > It is a little obvious that Bowser is thinking about or is making a B-6. > There were too many "how good is to going to be" messages for me to read. I > say JUST BE GLAD that Bowser is making one! If the quality is not up to your > standards, buy a Key at $700.00! I too have many of the pieces in S Scale > that Bowser has done. But they are all brass. You can buy them for $10-20.00 > In spite of that fact, I have heard many should ofs, could ofs, and would be > better if comments about their products. > > Take a $100,000.00 gamble of your own money, and produce something yourself! > It's REAL fun. You get to do all the research, market analysis, and > manufacturing, only to get trashed on a train email list because someone saw > a pre-production sample model with a few errors at a train show. > > A B-6 is and has been my most wanted engine in S Scale for years. In > reality, as with the X-29, I am probably going to be the one who has to > import it at $1000.00 +. > > Just be happy with what you have guys..... It's only trains! > > Nuff said, > > Bill > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] TrucTrain Trailers Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:23:15 -0600 Stan also makes a kit-bash for those unusual panel side hoppers used by the Wabash and other railraods. I beliive his kits include details for the inside as well as the outside walls. -----Original Message----- From: Andy Cich [mailto:ajc5150@insightbb.com] Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 4:38 PM To: Prr-talk; TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: RE: [PRR] TrucTrain Trailers Greg, I was at Naperville, and somehow I missed these. Do you have any contact info for Stan? (I'm not going to even try to spell his last name.) Thanks, Andy Cich -----Original Message----- From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com [mailto:TGREGMRTN@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 11:48 AM To: asmiller@mitre.org; ajc5150@insightbb.com Cc: jerry@pennsyrr.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] TrucTrain Trailers Andy and all, While in Naperville many of us discovered Stan Radarwysk (sp?) has produced the proper side rails that made the reproduction of the F30D so difficult. They are laser cut styrene and each strip (retail 5 bucks) will do one cars. He has also released a decal set for the PR version of the car which matches the stake pockets to a TEE. Nicely done. When I was doing the Scuttlebutt Column I did several write ups on Stan's line of products and BTW Stan will be in Cocoa Beach this January, anyone here planning on going? Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:25:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Need PRR Tower Plans John, I agree with Chris. Start with the Gloor Craft Kit. You don't need to follow the directions completely. I have 2 of these Towers. One I built per instructions, the other I modified with a Brick first floor. I didn't want a specific PRR Tower and this combination Brick/Wood looks great. Similar to a "mini" PRR Tower which names escaps me at this minute. I can get a photo of the model on line if you wish to see it. Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:00:51 -0500 Subject: [PRR] "Boys 'n Their Toys Tour II" Recap From: Jerry Britton The second annual "Boys 'n Their Toys Tour II" was a great success yesterday. We had four minivans full of participants from the York and Harrisburg area that trekked down to see Paul Backenstose's and Ken McCorry's layouts. Thanks, guys, for welcoming the public into your layouts!!! We had radios in the cars and jabbered back and forth in both directions...trying to stump each other on PRR trivia on the way home. On the trip down we followed the main line through Gap to Downingtown. We had lunch at the McDonald's in Thorndale, where you can sit facing the tracks. Of course, nothing came by. Interesting to note that there is still a PRR tool shed in tact at Thorndale. It's just east of the McDonald's. Paul had e-mailed me directions to his house. I guess he didn't take me seriously when I said we were coming as a "tour". He seemed somewhat stunned when we overran his abode!!! Nice layout, and nice adaptation of an Armstrong plan. Excellent PRR flavor and plenty of staging for involved operations! Ken's house was so busy they had folks helping cars to park! There were so many people there, it was like parking at the Penn State game the day before...maybe we should plan a tailgate party next time! When we arrived it was packed shoulder to shoulder, but thinned out after about a half an hour. There were, if I recall, five trains running. The ore train was at least sixty cars long. There was also a pig train, a coal train, a grain train, and a general merchandise train. Snappers provided a push of the Keating Summit, which has been expanded over the past two years. A lot of scenery has been completed since my last visit, and the site has been updated to 1976 with the formation of Conrail. If Broadway Limited Imports pans out, Ken is considering backdating to 1956. My camera's nicad's went dead near the end. They are recharging now, so it will be tomorrow until I post the digital pics I took. Again, Paul and Ken, thank you for opening up! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:30:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Need PRR Tower Plans John, I just remembered the Tower name the model Brick/Wood structure resembles a bit. . "HUNT" ---Huntingdon, Pa. .....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Kris Kollar built the beautiful L1s Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 07:49:36 -0700 Doug, I would like to apologize to both Kris and you for the error...Kris's model is wonderful and like you an inspiration for my Bowser L1s that never seems to get anywhere these days (isn't that the case for most of us!). Bill Daniels, frustrated L1s builder Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:03:17 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PCL] PRR D78 striping bobspf@aol.com wrote: (in part) > My dream is to someday do that to all my Rivarossi smoothside > cars, especially the lettering. After I complete painting all the window > frames stainless. > > > Bob Zoeller > > ================================================== Bob, I have repainted and relettered all of my AHM/Rivarossi cars (10-6s, 12-5s, 2-1 Obs, and some kit bashed 12-4s, 2br lounges, 6 br lounges, and a 2-1-1- obs) It makes all the difference in the world. I produced the stainless steel window frames by first painting the car silver and then masking the windows with stick-on price tag labels. No one makes a label of the right size, so I needed to slice the label diagonally and use half a label for each corner. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:07:18 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser B6 Just as an aside, my two models of a B-6 are brass. They were imported many, many years ago by AHM. They were very rudimentary models and required much detailing. The interesting point is that they cost me $19 each! I often remark to people that I own brass locomotives that cost less than the current Walthers' catalog - not the price IN the Walthers' catalog, the price OF the Walthers' catalog! ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "John H. Wright" wrote: > Donald E. Harper, Jr wrote: > > >I just took a look at the photo on the Bowser web page. SURELY they aren't > >going to offer this engine with brass drivers! > > > >Don Harper > >Texas A&M Marine Lab > >5007 Avenue U > >Galveston, TX 77551 > >409/740-4540 > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > > > > > Seems an odd colour for brass IMHO ...... more of a phosphor-bronze > colour ...... though the limitations of colour rendition via all the > digital stuff might not be reliable. Brass wheels would be a retrograde > step and would need to be replaced on any model I acquired. > > I look on the Bowser locos as kits with potential, ...... the latest > ones that is. The B6sb seems to fit this bill. The older Bowser ( old > Penn Line stuff etc. ) have too many crude innacuracies in boiler / > firebox shape that rule them out as far as I'm concerned. But their > latest offerings from the A5 onwards are much better. > > The bottom line for me, is how would the B6sb look alongside my brass > locos. Looking at the web site picture I would say OK. bearing in > mind that a lot of metal would need to be ground away to 'thin' down > appearance ...... cab, footplate etc. and detail parts added. This > work is part and parcel of what you need to do with a Bowser kit IMHO, > and should be accepted as such. If you can't / won't do this ...... > then you can't expect the loco to look as good as latest plastic 'steam'. > > -- > Regards, > John H. Wright > Washington, England > Web sites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ > http://www.xclent.clara.net > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: [PCL] PRR D78 striping Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 09:18:58 -0600 An alternative was of producing the stainless steel window frames is with silver striping decals. I've seen it done, and it is very effective. -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 9:03 AM To: PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk; PRR Modeling Subject: [PRR] Re: [PCL] PRR D78 striping bobspf@aol.com wrote: (in part) > My dream is to someday do that to all my Rivarossi smoothside > cars, especially the lettering. After I complete painting all the window > frames stainless. > > > Bob Zoeller > > ================================================== Bob, I have repainted and relettered all of my AHM/Rivarossi cars (10-6s, 12-5s, 2-1 Obs, and some kit bashed 12-4s, 2br lounges, 6 br lounges, and a 2-1-1- obs) It makes all the difference in the world. I produced the stainless steel window frames by first painting the car silver and then masking the windows with stick-on price tag labels. No one makes a label of the right size, so I needed to slice the label diagonally and use half a label for each corner. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 08:36:50 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] South Fork Branch stuff, somewhat long --- Mark Lehman wrote: > Bob and Pat. Thanks for really confusing me. I didn't realize the > "SO" > Branch was made up of so many different lines. What a bowl of > spaghetti! The territory was known to contain coal and timber resources but access was denied, until 1889, by the South Fork Dam. Meanwhile, other mines and other forests elsewhere in the state were becoming exhausted but in the process mining and forestry companies were piling up money from their operations. When the flood took out the dam, it became possible to develop those resources and there existed companies with the financial resources to do that quickly on a large scale, and the motivation in that their existing properties were petering out. To be cute about it, the failure of the dam yielded two floods. The first, of water below the dam; the second, of economic development above the dam. > Bob wrote: > > "Acquired by construction: > South Fork Branch, > South Fork to near Summerhill, Pa., 1906 1.99 mi." > Is this the "Flyover" track that connected at "W"? The distance > sounds right. That would be my bet, but I don't know. 1906 seems the right time for a lot of improvements on the Pittsbugh Division. To add to the confusion, later in the list of "Acquired by construction" there is an entry: Summerhill Branch, South Fork to near Summerhill, Pa., date of construction not obtained, 1.99 mi. Sounds like they're talking about the same 1.99 miles of track, but that the ICC report compiler got confused himself. Or perhaps I'm confused. Or were there two more-or-less parallel tracks (in addition to the main line) between South Fork and Summerhill? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus – Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 11:48:57 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Survey Results of the 6th Annual Needs Survey (LONG) From: Jerry Britton Here are the results of the 6th Annual "Keystone Crossings/PRR-Talk" Modeling Needs Survey! The results will be sent to several dozen model manufactuers. Each year a few of our highest ranking items are either produced or announced. This survey seems to have some effect on production. This year the survey went out to approximately 600 subscribers. We received 59 responses...a 10% return. Thank you for your participation! Respondents were asked to list their top three desired models within each classification. Any additional entries within a classification were discarded. Products are in order of votes received WITHOUT consideration of multiple sales per vote, though some are noted (one line of comment per vote). Those receiving an equal number of votes are in no particular order. Some of the answers were subject to interpretation. I did the best I could! ----------------------------------HO SCALE--------------------------------- STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: (14) J1 series <----Bowser abandoned their project!!! <------THIRD YEAR AT THE TOP!!!! (11) I1 series three (7) H10 at least six (6) L1 series three to five (5) H6 series (5) H9 series three to four (4) E6 series (4) K4 series (4) G5 <----Bowser kit available again (3) S2 (3) Q2 (3) D16 series (3) B6 series (3) M1 series <-----due 6/03 from Broadway Limited (2) S1 (2) N2 series at least six (2) N1 (2) C1 (2) E2 (1) E3 (1) K2 series (1) T1 series <-----due 9/03 from Broadway Limited ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: (MP series is under passenger equipment) (18) P5 series <----THIRD YEAR AT THE TOP!!! ten (10) E44 series two (6) B1 (1) DD2 (1) GG1 <----announced by Broadway Limited for 3/03 (1) DD1 (1) #10001 switcher kit (1) PRSL-WJS MP0a MU ??? (1) FF2 (1) DD2 (1) E2 (1) R1 (1) R5 (1) E33 DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: (9) BP60 "Centipedes" (Baldwin DR 12-8-30 paired) (7) BP20 Passenger Sharks (Baldwin DRS 6-4-2000) (5) FS20 (FM H-20-44) (5) BS24 transfer unit (Baldwin RT624) (4) AF24 (Alco DL640/RS27) (3) BF15 Freight Shark (Baldwin DR 4-4-15) (2) BF16 (accurate) (Baldwin RF16) (2) EF15/EH15 (EMD F3) <-----already done! (2) GF25a (GE U25c) (1) AS18am (Alco RSD12) (1) BS6 (Baldwin VO660) (1) AS10a (Alco T6) (1) BS7 (Baldwin DS 4-4-750) (1) EP22 (EMD E8) <-----already done! (1) ?? (DL600b) (1) LS25 (LH T2500) (1) (GEW 350 Doodlebug) (1) EP20 (accurate) (EMD E7) (1) (RDC-1) (1) AF36 (Alco C636) (1) FS24m (FM Trainmaster) FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: (6) K7 multiples (5) K8 (4) X29b large numbers (4) H25 (4) X58 (3) H30 covered hopper (3) G38/G39 Ore gennies large quantities (2) FGEX reefers ten to twenty (2) X29d large numbers (2) X26c large numbers (2) X23 (2) G31 (1) F22 (1) any well flat (1) H21a without the reinforcing angle (1) X38 (1) anything from 1920's easier than Westerfield (1) X29 with patch plates already on lower side sills (1) GR/Gra (1) G22 (2) G27 (1) auto racks (1) F30d (TrucTrain) (1) X57 (1) X59 (1) X40b (1) F41 (1) X41c (1) Gla (Red Caboose quality) (1) GLc (1) H32 (1) GLx (1) Glca (1) H31c (1) X51 (1) G36 with coil steel hoods (1) any accurate pre-war cars (1) depressed center flat <---available from Eastern Car Works (1) X28 (1) X26 (1) G28 (1) G32 NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: (14) N6 series about ten (8) N8 (3) FM "Tower Car" (2) NX23 (2) Ballast cleaning train (2) ND (2) Derrick crane (1) test weight car (1) work caboose (1) Clearance Car <---was done by Rail Works (1) XL Camp Cars RtR PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: (8) MP54 series (3) P54 (3) MP85 Silverliner (2) Keystone tubular cars (2) "Fleet of Modernism" set (2) X42 mail storage car (2) B60b <----try Eastern Car Works RtR (2) smoothside post-war <----not precise enough!= (2) B70 (2) P70 RtR (2) P85 RtR (1) PK series (1) Pullman 8-Lounge (1) Pullman 12-1 (1) Pullman troop sleeper/ACF kitchen (1) Pullman Troop Sleeper/Kitchen (1) pre-war cars <----not precise enough!= (1) BM70ka (1) "Queen Mary" observation (1) 28-1 hw parlor (1) MB70ka (1) P70kr <------available as sides, core kit (1) Congo coaches (1) Congo observation (1) Congo two-unit diner (1) "Trailblazer" recreation car (1) bBM62/mBM62T (1) Core kit for P70 cars (1) MB70m (1) POC70 RtR (1) Aerotrain (1) BM70c (1) PBM70 (1) any hw Pullman or Parlor (1) PB54 (1) Budd streamline cars (1) POS211 (1) BM70k STRUCTURES DESIRED: (7) Medium brick tower COLA, HUNT (5) Small passenger station cheaper than American Model Builders kit Moorestown Cape May Court House or Tuckahoe (3) Elevated crossing shanty (3) Large brick tower ZOO, Rockville (3) coaling tower (2) Lines West station (1) Medium passenger station Lancaster, Johnstown (1) Pittsburgh Station (1) Lines West roundhouse Canton, Crestline, etc. (1) Hulett ore unloader (1) PFW&C Chicago River South Branch Bridge (1) stone arch bridges (1) water column (1) South Amboy enginehouse (1) Steel water tower (1) FM ash/coal hoist (Thorndale) (1) Double track trestle kit (1) Lines West tower (1) Passenger station shed, like Philly before fire (1) Tool house OTHER DESIRED: (7) signals (4) dwarf signals (3) (accurate) four track signal bridge (2) tug boat (2) PRR fencing (2) PRR catenary components <---check Model Memories (2) Laser cut signs, whistle posts, etc. (1) Lower quadrant semaphores (1) Watering standpipes, delivery pipes (1) 32' Fruehauff trailers (1) Klamer cut levers (1) N2sa conversion boiler for Bowser USRA 2-10-2 (1) PRR Crew Bus (1) 1950's Greyhound Bus (1) PnP sound decoder for Bachmann K4 (1) interlocking apparatus (relay cases, switch machines, etc.) (1) car float bridges (1) (accurate) pre-1950's vehicles (1) PRR station lamp posts (1) 40' Fruehauf trailer <----try Bethlehem Car Works ----------------------------------N SCALE--------------------------------- STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: (3) I1 two of them two of them (3) K4s eight to ten of them three to four of them two to three of them (3) H10 series five of them (2) B6 (2) M1 two of them (1) H9 (1) G5 (1) K2 (1) 0-4-0 (1) T1 two of them (1) E6 (1) H9 (1) F3c (1) H6sb ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: (MP series is under passenger equipment) (5) P5 series nine to twelve (4) GG1 nine to twelve (3) E44 two of them (2) B1/B3 three B1's (1) L5 (1) E33 DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: (3) BP60/BH50 Centipedes (Baldwin DR 12-8-30 paired) (5) EF15/EH15 (EMD F3) <---preannounced by InterMountain (1) EF15a (EMD F7) <---preannounced by InterMountain (2) BP20 Passenger Sharks (Baldwin DR 6-4-20) three A's and two B's (2) ES6 (EMD SW1) (1) FS10 (FM H 10-44) four of them (1) EP22's from Kato in single stripe (EMD E8's) (1) ES15m (EMD GP7) w/torpedo tubes (1) Alco S2 (1) EFS17m (EMD GP9) (updated) (1) ES15ax/ES17m (EMD SD7/SD9) (updated) (1) GS4 (GE 44 tonner) (1) AS10 (Alco S2) (1) AF25 (Alco C425) (1) AF27 (Alco C628) (1) EPF15 (EMD FP7) FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: (5) F30/F30d (latter for TrucTrain) twelve to twenty four of them would purchase at least fifty F30d (2) F39a (2) X23 (1) H21 (clamshell) (1) G25 (1) four wheel tank car (1) any Lines West box car for 1950 sixty of them (1) open auto rack six of them (1) G38/G39 ore jennies six to twelve of them (1) any stock car (1) H30 covered hopper (1) Gla (1) H25 (1) X29b/X29d/X29g twenty or so (1) X43b NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: (6) N8 four of them two of them four of them (4) N5c <-----unofficially announced by Bowser four of them twelve of them (3) N6 four of them (2) Z74 (1) ND cabin (1) Y1/Y3 scale test car (1) 150 ton wreck derrick PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: (3) MP54/PPB54 two to four of them (2) BM70/BM70m two to four of them five to seven of BM70m (2) R50b <-------there is someone working on this!!! twenty four of them (2) P70 series (1) hw 8sec-1dr-2cmpt plan 3979a (1) hw 14sec plan 3958a at least five (1) D70cR/D70dR two sets (1) D85a four of them (1) D78 (1) M70 (1) PB70 (1) Aerotrain (1) 1948 Broadway Limited set (1) MP85 (1) P70r (1) PS106 STRUCTURES DESIRED: (9) PRR towers MG, ALTO, MO, ZOO, ROCKVILLE, VIEW, BANKS, etc. (MG is definitely the most popular) (1) PRR skewed stone arch bridges (1) passenger station (1) Pedestrian Bridge (4th Street Altoona) (1) Small freight station OTHER DESIRED: (2) 30' Fruehauf TrucTrain trailer would buy a bunch would buy fifty to sixty (2) 26' to 28' Keystone Merchandise Service trailers twenty four of them would buy at least ten (2) PRR pipe fence (1) PRR dwarf signals (working, of course) (1) PRR semaphore signals (1) Two wheel baggage cart (1) (Accurate) scale lighting kits for signal bridges and masts six to twelve of them (1) laser etched mileposts, whistle posts, other signs ----------------------------------O SCALE 2-RAIL---------------------------- STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: (1) (Baldwin AS-16) FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: (1) H30 covered hopper NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: (1) MP54 (1) P70fbR coach w/clerestory roof (1) PB70 STRUCTURES DESIRED: (1) PRR tower OTHER DESIRED: ----------------------------------S SCALE ---------------------------- STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: (1) H9 (1) E6 ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: (1) BF15/BF16 Freight Shark FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: STRUCTURES DESIRED: (1) Lines West brick depot (1) Middle division wood tower JACKS OTHER DESIRED: ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 12:35:23 From: dmurphy Subject: [PRR] RR stuff in Bloomington, Il. Greetings to the list! I am spending next weekend in Bloomongton, Il. Are there any hobby shops or railroad related sites there? Any model railroad open houses? Thanks. Don Murphy Recreating Operations on the Renovo Division of the PRR Circa 1946 dmurphy@velocity.net ________________________________________________ Velocity.Net Webmail 2.0 -- http://www.velocity.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:09:55 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Micro-Trains #45140 PRR F30 From: Jerry Britton Gents... Micro-Trains body style 45000 is a 50' flat with fishbelly sides. They have released three road numbers for the PRR under 45140 over the past 10 years. These cars are lettered for class F30. Question: How close are these cars to "real" F30's, without counting rivets? Perhaps more importantly, if you applied details to make it an F30d, repainted, relettered the car and put an accurate 30' Fruehauf "TrucTrain" trailer on it, would you notice the underlying problems with the car itself? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:00:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Micro-Trains #45140 PRR F30 From: Jerry Britton On 11/25/02 1:09 PM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > Gents... > > Micro-Trains body style 45000 is a 50' flat with fishbelly sides. They have > released three road numbers for the PRR under 45140 over the past 10 years. > These cars are lettered for class F30. > > Question: How close are these cars to "real" F30's, without counting rivets? > > Perhaps more importantly, if you applied details to make it an F30d, > repainted, relettered the car and put an accurate 30' Fruehauf "TrucTrain" > trailer on it, would you notice the underlying problems with the car itself? Follow up: I'm more concerned with overall length, shape of side, type of truck... Rob Shoenburg's site shows what truck is on the other subclasses of F30's, but not the F30d's. The Micro-Trains model comes with Bettendorf trucks, one source says. The side brake wheel would need to be shaved off and the 14 post holes on each side would need to be shaved off and replaced with 13 equally spaced ones. Would have to add a few TrucTrain details: brake wheel on the end, fifth wheel, four steel posts on sides (to hold trailer if chains break), perforated "I" beam along top sides of car to which chains attach, and plates on opposite corners of ends of car which fold down to allow "circus style" loading from car to car. Looks pretty do-able, however, if the Micro-Trains flat provides a good starting point. That's where I need help. Looks like a new decal set is in order as well. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Survey Results of the 6th Annual Needs Survey (LONG) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:20:04 -0500 Some comments on the wants. First, I thought my ballast train was an impossibility because of how much detail it has; until I saw: Hulett ore unloader. I take one too. Some of these are in the works (sort of) in HO E44 series maybe from Bachman after the E33 E33 from Bachman (1) PRSL-WJS MP0a MU I believe MTS was working on one of these as a kit years ago but had problems with one of the parts. NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: N6 series (doesn't the Model Power N6 make a passable model) test weight car Try Stewart (the metal kit co. not the plastic diesel co.) or Walthers Aerotrain (Bowser) STRUCTURES DESIRED: (5) Small passenger station cheaper than American Model Builders kit ( Steel water tower Isn't the Tichy one close enough Tool house (doesn't Bethlehem make one along with Micro-scale (2) PRR fencing (available) (1) PRR station lamp posts ( Railworks had a prototype of these at a trainshow. He said the main problem was getting 2 wires for lighting up the double lamp ones.) Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:23:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] South Fork Branch stuff, somewhat long I'm familiar with the Summerhill branch. It was a separate parallel line that ran from just East of SO tower along the North side of the river. it rejoined the mainline at W tower. The line was laid on the Portage RR ROW. This line is probably what the ICC compiler was referring to.---------Mark L-------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] New trackage from the Conemaugh Secondary Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:39:12 +0000 I found this article interesting. It is from the Trains.com web site. Does anyone know if this will happen or not? Norfolk Southern aims to create coal shortcut in Pennsylvania Friday News Wire Extra, November 22, 2002 by Bill Stephens It’s not often that a railroad can shave more than 100 miles off an existing route by building about 5 miles of new track. But that’s just what Norfolk Southern is proposing to do in western Pennsylvania, where a new 5 1/4-mile line would create a shortcut by linking the NS Conemaugh Line with NS’s isolated Shelocta Secondary. The driving force behind the $30 million project is coal and the roundabout route it must take from the Monongahela coal fields of southwestern Pennsylvania and northern West Virginia to the Reliant Energy Keystone Generating Plant in Shelocta, Pa., a small place just northwest of the city of Indiana, Pa., and about 50 miles by the most direct highway route northeast from Pittsburgh. The project in late November received a favorable preliminary environmental review from the Surface Transportation Board, and while public comment has not yet been received by the Board, it is likely to approve the project. NS says the new route will make operations more efficient, increase capacity, and enable it to snare some coal traffic that now moves to the power plant by truck. Currently, NS sends about five loaded coal trains a week to the plant on what it calls the Northern Route, which goes a roundabout way through the mountains: northeast from the Pittsburgh area, then east, then southwest to Shelocta, which is on a branch that presently dead-ends beyond there, 5 miles short of the Conemaugh Line. (The Conemaugh, a former P:ennsylvania Railroad route, is a secondary main line, an alternate to NS’s former PRR east-west main between the Pittsburgh and [Pa.] areas.) The coal loads begin their trip at Shire Oaks Yard in Elrama, Pa., on NS’s Mon Line along the Monongahela River south of Pittsburgh, and make their way up through Pittsburgh to Freeport Junction, Pa., on the Conemaugh Line. From there they move by trackage rights on two of the Genesee & Wyoming family’s short lines, first the Pittsburg & Shawmut northeast to West Mosgrove, Pa., where they must climb up to gain the Buffalo & Pittsburgh’s high Allegheny River bridge. From there they proceed east on the B&P to Riker Yard near Punxsutawney, Pa., then use B&P’s Riker Running Track to nearby Cloe, Pa., where they gain a former B&O branch, still owned by CSX, and head southwest to Creekside, Pa. From Creekside on southwest to the Keystone plant, the ex-B&O line is owned by NS as the Shelocta Secondary, inherited from Conrail. For the coal loads and then the empties, it’s a round trip of 443 miles. NS’s new proposed so-called Southern Route, which would be made possible by construction of the new 5 1/4-mile connection, would trim that to a 341-mile round trip. NS labels the proposed new link the Saltsburg Connection. It would diverge northeast from the Conemaugh Line at Saltsburg, gaining the Shelocta Secondary at Clarksburg. The track exists from Clarksburg to Shelocta, 11 miles, but is out of service and would be rebuilt. NS tabs the total cost of the project at $30 million, $20 million of which would be for the Saltsburg Connection, plus the rehabililtation of the 11-mile segment and a new connection to the Keystone plant’s spur. After the Saltsburg Connection is built, the trains would follow their existing route on the Conemaugh Line to Freeport but continue east on the Conemaugh to Saltsburg. The new route would do more than simply knock miles off the trip. NS hauls 2.3 million tons of coal a year to the Keystone plant, but the plant receives about half its coal by truck — 2.2 million tons of central Pennsylvania coal a year. NS figures it can snag at least some of that truck-hauled coal by building the connection. The present Northern Route is curvy and has a ruling grade of 1.83%. Coal trains are limited to 100 cars and require 4 six-axle locomotives with self- steering trucks, or 8 four-axle units. The proposed Southern Route, with grades not exceeding 1%, will be able to handle 130-car trains with just 3 six-axle units, NS says. That means NS could haul 2.3 million tons a year to the plant using just 164 130-car unit trains on the Southern Route, vs. 213 100-car trains on the Northern Route. The existing route is also operating at capacity, NS says, hindering its ability to send more coal to the plant. But the new route could handle seven longer trains a week, NS says. Once the STB approves the project, it would take about 18 months for NS to complete construction and open the route, NS spokesman Rudy Husband said. The project essentially will reverse the traffic flow on the Shelocta Secondary, which was built by the Buffalo, Rochester & Pittsburgh to haul coal from area mines northward to the Great Lakes at Buffalo and Rochester. CSX inherited former BR&P lines through BR&P successor Baltimore & Ohio, and spun off the route to Genesee & Wyoming’s Buffalo & Pittsburgh as part of a lease and purchase transaction in 1988. B&P stopped serving the Ridge and Indiana Subdivisions – which includes the route from Cloe to Shelocta and Clarksburg – in 1994. A year later, Conrail purchased the Ridge Sub and leased the connecting portion of the Indiana Sub from CSX (for whom it was also isolated) so CR could haul coal to the Keystone plant. All the Conrail lines in this region went to NS in the 1999 Conrail split, which created the isolated 30-mile route NS operates today between Cloe and Shelocta and must access by trackage rights. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:55:51 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] New trackage from the Conemaugh Secondary From: Jerry Britton On 11/25/02 2:39 PM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > I found this article interesting. It is from the Trains.com web site. Does > anyone know if this will happen or not? > First I've heard of it...and even though only 5 miles or so long, will be the most ambitious tracklaying in Pennsylvania in a few years!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:25:40 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Survey Results of the 6th Annual Needs Survey (LONG) On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Jerry Britton wrote: > ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: [] > (1) E33 Bachmann's doing one in HO. Test shots have been shown. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 16:27:02 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] Survey Results of the 6th Annual Needs Survey (LONG) On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Chany, Christopher wrote: > (2) PRR fencing (available) Who makes fence, as opposed to just stachions? There *was* the brass fence, but as far as I know, now you can get one of the 2 styles of stanchions (but not both) in plastic. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 17:23:48 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] New trackage from the Conemaugh Secondary From: Paul W Metzger In some conversations I have had with NS crews, they have said that it will definitely happen, it's just a matter of when. NS had been planning this route for almost 2 years now. I thought that they had already started working on it. I live near Etna, PA, where the Shelocta crews work out of. The Shire Oaks crews bring the trains to Etna, and the Shelocta crews take them the rest of the way. Paul On Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:39:12 +0000 ndbprr@att.net writes: > I found this article interesting. It is from the Trains.com web > site. Does > anyone know if this will happen or not? > > Norfolk Southern aims to create coal shortcut in Pennsylvania > Friday News Wire Extra, November 22, 2002 > by Bill Stephens > > > It’s not often that a railroad can shave more than 100 miles off an > existing > route by building about 5 miles of new track. > > But that’s just what Norfolk Southern is proposing to do in western > > Pennsylvania, where a new 5 1/4-mile line would create a shortcut by > linking > the NS Conemaugh Line with NS’s isolated Shelocta Secondary. > > The driving force behind the $30 million project is coal and the > roundabout > route it must take from the Monongahela coal fields of southwestern > > Pennsylvania and northern West Virginia to the Reliant Energy > Keystone > Generating Plant in Shelocta, Pa., a small place just northwest of > the city of > Indiana, Pa., and about 50 miles by the most direct highway route > northeast > from Pittsburgh. > > The project in late November received a favorable preliminary > environmental > review from the Surface Transportation Board, and while public > comment has not > yet been received by the Board, it is likely to approve the project. > > > NS says the new route will make operations more efficient, increase > capacity, > and enable it to snare some coal traffic that now moves to the power > plant by > truck. > > Currently, NS sends about five loaded coal trains a week to the > plant on what > it calls the Northern Route, which goes a roundabout way through the > mountains: > northeast from the Pittsburgh area, then east, then southwest to > Shelocta, > which is on a branch that presently dead-ends beyond there, 5 miles > short of > the Conemaugh Line. (The Conemaugh, a former P:ennsylvania Railroad > route, is a > secondary main line, an alternate to NS’s former PRR east-west main > between the > Pittsburgh and [Pa.] areas.) > > The coal loads begin their trip at Shire Oaks Yard in Elrama, Pa., > on NS’s Mon > Line along the Monongahela River south of Pittsburgh, and make their > way up > through Pittsburgh to Freeport Junction, Pa., on the Conemaugh Line. > From there > they move by trackage rights on two of the Genesee & Wyoming > family’s short > lines, first the Pittsburg & Shawmut northeast to West Mosgrove, > Pa., where > they must climb up to gain the Buffalo & Pittsburgh’s high Allegheny > River > bridge. From there they proceed east on the B&P to Riker Yard near > Punxsutawney, Pa., then use B&P’s Riker Running Track to nearby > Cloe, Pa., > where they gain a former B&O branch, still owned by CSX, and head > southwest to > Creekside, Pa. From Creekside on southwest to the Keystone plant, > the ex-B&O > line is owned by NS as the Shelocta Secondary, inherited from > Conrail. > > For the coal loads and then the empties, it’s a round trip of 443 > miles. NS’s > new proposed so-called Southern Route, which would be made possible > by > construction of the new 5 1/4-mile connection, would trim that to a > 341-mile > round trip. NS labels the proposed new link the Saltsburg > Connection. It would > diverge northeast from the Conemaugh Line at Saltsburg, gaining the > Shelocta > Secondary at Clarksburg. The track exists from Clarksburg to > Shelocta, 11 > miles, but is out of service and would be rebuilt. NS tabs the total > cost of > the project at $30 million, $20 million of which would be for the > Saltsburg > Connection, plus the rehabililtation of the 11-mile segment and a > new > connection to the Keystone plant’s spur. > > After the Saltsburg Connection is built, the trains would follow > their existing > route on the Conemaugh Line to Freeport but continue east on the > Conemaugh to > Saltsburg. > > The new route would do more than simply knock miles off the trip. NS > hauls 2.3 > million tons of coal a year to the Keystone plant, but the plant > receives about > half its coal by truck — 2.2 million tons of central Pennsylvania > coal a year. > NS figures it can snag at least some of that truck-hauled coal by > building the > connection. > > The present Northern Route is curvy and has a ruling grade of 1.83%. > Coal > trains are limited to 100 cars and require 4 six-axle locomotives > with self- > steering trucks, or 8 four-axle units. The proposed Southern Route, > with grades > not exceeding 1%, will be able to handle 130-car trains with just 3 > six-axle > units, NS says. > > That means NS could haul 2.3 million tons a year to the plant using > just 164 > 130-car unit trains on the Southern Route, vs. 213 100-car trains on > the > Northern Route. The existing route is also operating at capacity, NS > says, > hindering its ability to send more coal to the plant. But the new > route could > handle seven longer trains a week, NS says. Once the STB approves > the project, > it would take about 18 months for NS to complete construction and > open the > route, NS spokesman Rudy Husband said. > > The project essentially will reverse the traffic flow on the > Shelocta > Secondary, which was built by the Buffalo, Rochester & Pittsburgh to > haul coal > from area mines northward to the Great Lakes at Buffalo and > Rochester. > > CSX inherited former BR&P lines through BR&P successor Baltimore & > Ohio, and > spun off the route to Genesee & Wyoming’s Buffalo & Pittsburgh as > part of a > lease and purchase transaction in 1988. B&P stopped serving the > Ridge and > Indiana Subdivisions – which includes the route from Cloe to > Shelocta and > Clarksburg – in 1994. > > A year later, Conrail purchased the Ridge Sub and leased the > connecting portion > of the Indiana Sub from CSX (for whom it was also isolated) so CR > could haul > coal to the Keystone plant. All the Conrail lines in this region > went to NS in > the 1999 Conrail split, which created the isolated 30-mile route NS > operates > today between Cloe and Shelocta and must access by trackage rights. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: RE: [PRR] comments on the Bowser B-6 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:26:27 -0500 I for one am very happy that many of us are not "just glad that Bowser is making a B6." When someone is just happy that a particular item is made, then the quality of the goods suffers. A clear example of this is the American made cars of the late 1970's. There was not enough demand for quality cars and the quality of cars suffered. The same can be said of the model engines. For a long time we were just happy with what was made, but now there is lots of competition. This is why we now have the nice products from Life-Like, the updated Rivarossi engines, the Spectrum line of Bachmann steam, and now it looks like BLI. If we do not demand quality engines, then we will not get quality engines! Also, another note with the B6 is that relatively inexpensive brass B6's can be found. So if you include the time investment in the Bowser engine, then it might come close to a brass B6 in cost. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRPaul@aol.com Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:34:22 EST Subject: [PRR] Found Film Someone left a roll of film at my layout during yesterday's Open House. If it is yours, please contact me directly to claim it. Paul Backenstose prrpaul@aol.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: RE: [PRR] Survey Results of the 6th Annual Needs Survey (LONG) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:33:23 -0500 No big surprise on the J1a being top in the steam category. I had a discussion with someone on this list about the J1a, and there was speculation that companies may avoid it because it does not fit the 18 inch curve rule. I would think this may be an exception to this rule because it should work on 22 inch (my Westside did on my first layout) and it also makes a C&O engine. I do seem to remember someone discussing a questionaire from a manufacturer that asked about engines and one of them was a "2-10-4." Remember Bachmann sold a 2-10-4 that it put under the boiler of a ATSF 4-8-4, so it can be done. I would even bet that in the next couple years we will see either a ATSF 2-10-4 or a Pennsy J1a or both. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 18:51:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Survey Results of the 6th Annual Needs Survey (LONG) In a message dated 11/25/02 5:42:07 PM Central Standard Time, ealauterbach@earthlink.net writes: << I would think this may be an exception to this rule because it should work on 22 inch (my Westside did on my first layout) >> My Gem J1 will gently ease around a perfectly laid 24 inch curve, so I suspect if anyone made an effort they could get one to operate on a smaller radius. However, I would sure hope that isn't a barrier, in any case. I suspect they could sell out a run of J1s to those who want the most powerful nonarticulated locomotive and have the minimum radii to support it. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Laurie Cooper" Subject: [PRR] E33 vs E44 Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 17:35:09 -0800 Does anyone know if the wheel base and frame of an E33 have the same dimensions as an E44? Are the trucks the same? John -----Original Message----- From: Derrick J Brashear To: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Monday, November 25, 2002 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Survey Results of the 6th Annual Needs Survey (LONG) >On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Jerry Britton wrote: > > >> ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: > >[] >> (1) E33 > >Bachmann's doing one in HO. Test shots have been shown. > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 21:18:30 -0500 From: bearcreekwest@netscape.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Survey Results of the 6th Annual Needs Survey Listed under "other" category for wants is "1950's Greyhound Bus" American Precision Models produces a Flxible Clipper bus from the 1941-1951 timeframe that is decorated for Trailways. http://www.modelbuses.com/ Don Luke Tucson, AZ __________________________________________________________________ The NEW Netscape 7.0 browser is now available. Upgrade now! http://channels.netscape.com/ns/browsers/download.jsp Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 21:34:54 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] E33 vs E44 On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, Laurie Cooper wrote: > Does anyone know if the wheel base and frame of an E33 have the same > dimensions as an E44? Are the trucks the same? Trucks are the same (as they are for the U25C also) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 19:08:25 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] New trackage from the Conemaugh Secondary At the risk of straining topicality to the breaking point, I reply: --- ndbprr@att.net wrote: > I found this article interesting. It is from the Trains.com web > site. Does > anyone know if this will happen or not? > Norfolk Southern aims to create coal shortcut in Pennsylvania > Friday News Wire Extra, November 22, 2002 > by Bill Stephens > > It’s not often that a railroad can shave more than 100 miles off an > existing > route by building about 5 miles of new track. > > But that’s just what Norfolk Southern is proposing to do in western > Pennsylvania, where a new 5 1/4-mile line would create a shortcut > by linking > the NS Conemaugh Line with NS’s isolated Shelocta Secondary. Well, Rudy Husband should know, but to me, it looks more like 4 miles. > The driving force behind the $30 million project is coal and the > roundabout > route it must take from the Monongahela coal fields of southwestern > Pennsylvania and northern West Virginia to the Reliant Energy > Keystone > Generating Plant in Shelocta, Pa., a small place just northwest of > the city of > Indiana, Pa., and about 50 miles by the most direct highway route > northeast > from Pittsburgh. > > The project in late November received a favorable preliminary > environmental > review from the Surface Transportation Board, and while public > comment has not > yet been received by the Board, it is likely to approve the > project. There has, however, been a lot of negative talk from folks in Clarksburg. In the past two years there have been signs of activity, to wit: lots of survey markers in the general vicinity of the current end of track near Clarksburg, brush and weed cutting along much of the line, new antenna pole and (apparently) radio repeater at the summit between Clarksburg and Shelocta. > NS says the new route will make operations more efficient, increase > capacity, > and enable it to snare some coal traffic that now moves to the > power plant by > truck. > > Currently, NS sends about five loaded coal trains a week to the > plant on what > it calls the Northern Route, which goes a roundabout way through > the mountains: > northeast from the Pittsburgh area, then east, then southwest to > Shelocta, > which is on a branch that presently dead-ends beyond there, 5 miles > short of > the Conemaugh Line. (The Conemaugh, a former P:ennsylvania Railroad > route, is a > secondary main line, an alternate to NS’s former PRR east-west main > between the > Pittsburgh and [Pa.] areas.) It appears that the junction of the new line with the old PRR Conemaugh Division will be near the western portal of the tunnel just east of Saltsburg. That's the tunnel which was built as part of the 1950's relocation brought on by the Conemaugh Dam. According to the topographic maps, the elevation of the track there is a mere 40 feet lower than the end of track at Clarksburg. The valley between those points is quite broad and gentle. > The coal loads begin their trip at Shire Oaks Yard in Elrama, Pa., > on NS’s Mon > Line along the Monongahela River south of Pittsburgh, and make > their way up > through Pittsburgh to Freeport Junction, Pa., on the Conemaugh > Line. From there > they move by trackage rights on two of the Genesee & Wyoming > family’s short > lines, first the Pittsburg & Shawmut northeast to West Mosgrove, > Pa., where > they must climb up to gain the Buffalo & Pittsburgh’s high > Allegheny River > bridge. From there they proceed east on the B&P to Riker Yard near > Punxsutawney, Pa., and to do that they have to climb over the summit at Dayton, Pa, which was one of the "hard places" on the BR&P. > then use B&P’s Riker Running Track to nearby > Cloe, Pa., where they gain a former B&O branch, still owned by > CSX, and head southwest to Creekside, Pa. Which means two more summits. The last, Barton Hill, is along US119 and in days past I drove that road frequently. It was not uncommon to see multiple diesels working their butts off to drag coal up that hill at 10 mph or maybe a bit less. > From Creekside on southwest to the Keystone plant, > the ex-B&O line is owned by NS as the Shelocta Secondary, > inherited from Conrail. On that line, about two years ago, maybe three, a loaded coal gondola rocked badly enough to snag the superstructure of an ex-BR&P truss just south of Creekside and took the bridge down. It seems there was an unfortunate relationship between the period of oscillation of the cars and the frequency with which they passed over joints in the rails. > For the coal loads and then the empties, it’s a round trip of 443 > miles. NS’s > new proposed so-called Southern Route, which would be made possible > by > construction of the new 5 1/4-mile connection, would trim that to a > 341-mile > round trip. NS labels the proposed new link the Saltsburg > Connection. It would > diverge northeast from the Conemaugh Line at Saltsburg, gaining the > Shelocta > Secondary at Clarksburg. The track exists from Clarksburg to > Shelocta, Well, there is a stretch just south of the switch to the power plant where the rails were removed years ago. > 11 miles, but is out of service and would be rebuilt. I'm not sure that B&O put much money into maintenance and everything has just been sitting there, ties rotting, rails rusting, for a couple of decades (or maybe more). > NS tabs the total cost of > the project at $30 million, $20 million of which would be for the > Saltsburg > Connection, plus the rehabililtation of the 11-mile segment and a > new > connection to the Keystone plant’s spur. The switch is facing point for trains coming from the north. Under the new arrangement, trains would approach from the south, hence the need for a new connection. > After the Saltsburg Connection is built, the trains would follow > their existing > route on the Conemaugh Line to Freeport but continue east on the > Conemaugh to > Saltsburg. > > The new route would do more than simply knock miles off the trip. > NS hauls 2.3 > million tons of coal a year to the Keystone plant, but the plant > receives about > half its coal by truck — 2.2 million tons of central Pennsylvania > coal a year. > NS figures it can snag at least some of that truck-hauled coal by > building the > connection. > > The present Northern Route is curvy and has a ruling grade of > 1.83%. Not sure where that is. I'd bet on Mosgrove, as the climb up out of the river bottoms is quite abrupt. (The BR&P built a very high bridge across the Allegheny). Mosgrove is a few miles north of Kittaning (nowhere near Kittaning Point, y'ns easterners). The highway from Kittaning to Mosgrove runs along the grade of the old Allegheny Valley RR (later PRR) which is easily visible beside the road. > Coal > trains are limited to 100 cars and require 4 six-axle locomotives > with self- > steering trucks, They've been using SD80MACs, two fore, two aft. > or 8 four-axle units. Mainly GE units, as I recall, 4 on each end but for the past couple years, SD80's. > The proposed Southern Route, with grades > not exceeding 1%, will be able to handle 130-car trains with just 3 > six-axle units, NS says. > > That means NS could haul 2.3 million tons a year to the plant using > just 164 > 130-car unit trains on the Southern Route, vs. 213 100-car trains > on the > Northern Route. The existing route is also operating at capacity, > NS says, > hindering its ability to send more coal to the plant. But the new > route could > handle seven longer trains a week, NS says. Once the STB approves > the project, > it would take about 18 months for NS to complete construction and > open the > route, NS spokesman Rudy Husband said. There has also been talk of running coal trains past Shelocta to Creekside, then down the old BR&P Indiana Branch through Indiana to another power plant near Homer City. That one seemed to excite even more NIMBYism than the Saltsburg connection (but there are more people in Indiana than in Clarksburg, so I guess it figures). Currently the Homer City plant gets its coal by truck from a rail-to-truck transfer located on the former PRR Indiana Branch just off US22 outside Blairsville. Doing that would probably mean redoing the track at Creekside as the existing switch to the Indiana Branch is trailing point for traffic from Shelocta. Also, there is a tunnel on the northern outskirts of Indiana which, last I heard, was in questionable condition. But that line about "...we could run 7 longer trains per week..." makes me wonder if NS is thinking of more than just replacing trucks at Shelocta. > The project essentially will reverse the traffic flow on the > Shelocta > Secondary, which was built by the Buffalo, Rochester & Pittsburgh > to haul coal > from area mines northward to the Great Lakes at Buffalo and > Rochester. Well, yeah, but when you think on it, the current pattern (loads south, empties north) reverses the original pattern. The new way (loads north, empties south) puts things back the way they were when the BR&P engineers laid things out. As you may have gathered, this has been a hot topic on some other e-mail groups. Indeed, it was probably five years ago that I first heard rumors of it. On a related note, the BR&P had a branch off the Ridge Branch which went to McIntyre, then to Jacksonville, and southward to a mine about a mile north of the Conemaugh River. Somewhere, I think in Chris Baer's chronology on the PRRT&HS Phila. Chapter's web site, I read that there had been serious consideration given to building a connection from the Conemaugh division to the BR&P McIntyre Branch. Don't remember the time frame, and in any case, that connection would have been several miles up the Conemaugh from the connection discussed above. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:21:26 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Varied South Wind consists In a message dated 11/25/02 12:27:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] South Wind consists > From: "A Samostie" > Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:16:49 -0400 > > > Dear Bob and Group, > > I notice that the 1930s era South Wind in HO scale is again being > advertised by Challenger Imports, Ltd. See page 43 of December 2002 > Railroad Model Craftsman. The Budd fluted-side consist is accompanied > by a streamlined PRR K-4. The bullet-end observation car shown in the > Challenger Imports ad features a keystone-shaped South Wind drumhead. > > Was the South Wind a "pure PRR consist" during this era? > Or, did it always carry L&N, ACL and FEC cars in addition to PRR cars? > If it did carry cars from the partner roads, were the cars all in the > same paint scheme for "pool service", or mix-n-match? > > I always though it interesting that the NP dome cars found their way > south during the winter months... during later years, the consist must > have been a cavalcade of paint schemes. > > Cheers, > Alan Samostie > > ELHS #3178 > Gentlemen, My first question would be, did the South Wind run in the 30's (it did not, and certainly not with that Budd consist). The train began Dec 19, 1940, and sleepers were added April 24, 1949 (Midwest Florida Sunliners). Pictures of the first southbound trhough Louisville show the Budd consist of coaches and diner. Legend has it that the PRR and the ACL each contributed a "pure" consist. However, in the sample of color photos I've seen from Louisville railfans of the postwar era: 1. Not once did PRR units get photographed with a pure PRR consist (I CAN find this in black and white in 1949). 2. Not once did ACL units get photographed with a pure ACL consist. 3. FEC streamlined baggage cars were common. Of course, they matched the ACL equipment fairly well. ACL heavyweight baggages also appeared. OTOH, L& N headend equipment was scarce. And the South Wind didn't work mail, so RPO's are not visible. 4. Consist scrambling goes back to at least July 1948, when the Wind was still pulled by K4's and T1's. 5. The later the picture, the more scrambled the consist. In later years, one almost gets the impression that the Chicago coach yard was including any ACL equipment they had on hand, especially on the headend, and then making it up the balance out of the PRR fleet. OTOH, who can prove they weren't simply returning whatever the ACL dispatched to them out of Jacksonville? Most probably a classic case of what happens when a car misses its departure due to mechanical problems. Soon, things get all mixed up (this happened to unit train hoppers, too). 6. The leased NP dome shows up in one 1967 shot of the northbound South Wind approaching Louisville. It also shows up in Midwest Florida Sunliners in April 1968, nearing the end of its last season on the South Wind. My impression is, the dome didn't run for many winter seasons. 7. Of course, we have to factor in the well-known tendency of railfans to lens the strange, the unusual, and the discordant. I don't imagine railfans in 1950 were any different -- and that might account for all the variety in these shots. 8. I doubt any modelers will really want to run these mixtures of cars. Lots of modelers want "pretty" trains, all in one paint scheme. Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> ·FREE Health Insurance Quotes-eHealthInsurance.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/1.voSB/RnFFAA/46VHAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:21:26 EST Subject: [PRR] Varied South Wind consists --part1_1a7.c921848.2b145ed6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/25/02 12:27:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] South Wind consists > From: "A Samostie" > Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:16:49 -0400 > > > Dear Bob and Group, > > I notice that the 1930s era South Wind in HO scale is again being > advertised by Challenger Imports, Ltd. See page 43 of December 2002 > Railroad Model Craftsman. The Budd fluted-side consist is accompanied > by a streamlined PRR K-4. The bullet-end observation car shown in the > Challenger Imports ad features a keystone-shaped South Wind drumhead. > > Was the South Wind a "pure PRR consist" during this era? > Or, did it always carry L&N, ACL and FEC cars in addition to PRR cars? > If it did carry cars from the partner roads, were the cars all in the > same paint scheme for "pool service", or mix-n-match? > > I always though it interesting that the NP dome cars found their way > south during the winter months... during later years, the consist must > have been a cavalcade of paint schemes. > > Cheers, > Alan Samostie > > ELHS #3178 > Gentlemen, My first question would be, did the South Wind run in the 30's (it did not, and certainly not with that Budd consist). The train began Dec 19, 1940, and sleepers were added April 24, 1949 (Midwest Florida Sunliners). Pictures of the first southbound trhough Louisville show the Budd consist of coaches and diner. Legend has it that the PRR and the ACL each contributed a "pure" consist. However, in the sample of color photos I've seen from Louisville railfans of the postwar era: 1. Not once did PRR units get photographed with a pure PRR consist (I CAN find this in black and white in 1949). 2. Not once did ACL units get photographed with a pure ACL consist. 3. FEC streamlined baggage cars were common. Of course, they matched the ACL equipment fairly well. ACL heavyweight baggages also appeared. OTOH, L& N headend equipment was scarce. And the South Wind didn't work mail, so RPO's are not visible. 4. Consist scrambling goes back to at least July 1948, when the Wind was still pulled by K4's and T1's. 5. The later the picture, the more scrambled the consist. In later years, one almost gets the impression that the Chicago coach yard was including any ACL equipment they had on hand, especially on the headend, and then making it up the balance out of the PRR fleet. OTOH, who can prove they weren't simply returning whatever the ACL dispatched to them out of Jacksonville? Most probably a classic case of what happens when a car misses its departure due to mechanical problems. Soon, things get all mixed up (this happened to unit train hoppers, too). 6. The leased NP dome shows up in one 1967 shot of the northbound South Wind approaching Louisville. It also shows up in Midwest Florida Sunliners in April 1968, nearing the end of its last season on the South Wind. My impression is, the dome didn't run for many winter seasons. 7. Of course, we have to factor in the well-known tendency of railfans to lens the strange, the unusual, and the discordant. I don't imagine railfans in 1950 were any different -- and that might account for all the variety in these shots. 8. I doubt any modelers will really want to run these mixtures of cars. Lots of modelers want "pretty" trains, all in one paint scheme. Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_1a7.c921848.2b145ed6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/25/02 12:27:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] South Wind consists
From: "A Samostie" <quahog@sprint.ca>
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:16:49 -0400


Dear Bob and Group,

I notice that the 1930s era South Wind in HO scale is again being
advertised by Challenger Imports, Ltd.  See page 43 of December 2002
Railroad Model Craftsman.  The Budd fluted-side consist is accompanied
by a streamlined PRR K-4.  The bullet-end observation car shown in the
Challenger Imports ad features a keystone-shaped South Wind drumhead.

Was the South Wind a "pure PRR consist" during this era?
Or, did it always carry L&N, ACL and FEC cars in addition to PRR cars?
If it did carry cars from the partner roads, were the cars all in the
same paint scheme for "pool service", or mix-n-match?

I always though it interesting that the NP dome cars found their way
south during the winter months... during later years, the consist must
have been a cavalcade of paint schemes.

Cheers,
Alan Samostie
<quahog at sprint.ca>
ELHS #3178


Gentlemen,

My first question would be, did the South Wind run in the 30's (it did not, and certainly not with that Budd consist).  The train began Dec 19, 1940, and sleepers were added April 24, 1949 (Midwest Florida Sunliners).  Pictures of the first southbound trhough Louisville show the Budd consist of coaches and diner.

Legend has it that the PRR and the ACL each contributed a "pure" consist.  However, in the sample of color photos I've seen from Louisville railfans of the postwar era:

1.  Not once did PRR units get photographed with a pure PRR consist (I CAN find this in black and white in 1949).

2.  Not once did ACL  units get photographed with a pure ACL consist.

3.  FEC streamlined baggage cars were common.  Of course, they matched the ACL equipment fairly well.  ACL heavyweight baggages also appeared.  OTOH, L&N headend equipment was scarce.  And the South Wind didn't work mail, so RPO's are not visible.

4.  Consist scrambling goes back to at least July 1948, when the Wind was still pulled by K4's and T1's.

5.  The later the picture, the more scrambled the consist.  In later years, one almost gets the impression that the Chicago coach yard was including any ACL equipment they had on hand, especially on the headend, and then making it up the balance out of the PRR fleet.  OTOH, who can prove they weren't simply returning whatever the ACL dispatched to them out of Jacksonville?  Most probably a classic case of what happens when a car misses its departure due to mechanical problems.  Soon, things get all mixed up (this happened to unit train hoppers, too).

6.  The leased NP dome shows up in one 1967 shot of the northbound South Wind approaching Louisville.  It also shows up in Midwest Florida Sunliners in April 1968, nearing the end of its last season on the South Wind.  My impression is, the dome didn't run for many winter seasons.

7.  Of course, we have to factor in the well-known tendency of railfans to lens the strange, the unusual, and the discordant.  I don't imagine railfans in 1950 were any different -- and that might account for all the variety in these shots.

8.  I doubt any modelers will really want to run these mixtures of cars.  Lots of modelers want "pretty" trains, all in one paint scheme.

Rick Tipton
Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana.
Email RickTipton@aol.com
Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please)
Wolf Penn Station
5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive
Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_1a7.c921848.2b145ed6_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 00:21:36 EST Subject: [PRR] Survey response --part1_182.127c9d1a.2b145ee0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/24/02 4:23:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Group, > > I was given some advice to create a survey to help my Economics Final > paper. > I appreciate all the responses so far! Please indulge me once again, > This > I hope will put all the responses on an even playing field. I will give a > week time frame to get the survey back to me. Please have them back to me > by > December 1st. I will then post the results of the survey. Well here it > goes. > I have geared the questions so that is doesn't matter what scale you are > working in, but probably the majority of us are either N or HO. Please > state scale you work in first then answer the following questions. > > 1. How many of us started modeling trains because you yourself or an > ancestor used to work on the railroad or the PRR in particular? Please > chose one.... Yourself Ancestor X Other reason > > 2. When purchasing modeling equipment, please rate the following highest to > > lowest the priority you put on these particular items. > > Price 5 > Quality 2 > Detail 4 > Accuracy 3 > DCC Compatible 6 > Era 1 > > 3. Which do you prefer Kit or RTR? All other factors being equal.... Such > as Price, Quality, ETC... RTR gets used first, assuming it doesn't need a lot of modification. > > 4. Which do you prefer Kit or RTR in the present state of manufactured > products? RTR > > 5. What manufacturer gives the most bang for your buck in PRR equipment? > Price vs Quality/Accuracy Bowser, because street prices are low. But Intermountain does much nicer equipment. > > 6. What manufacturer does the best job at representing, our love, the PRR? > If price wasn't a factor. Lifelike P2K (I run diesels) > > 7. Where do you prefer to purchase? E-bay, Local hobby shop, Mail order, > Etc. Mail order > > 8. Has your purchasing habits changed in the last 3 years? If so How & > Why? Bought a new house and the economy sank. Both market and my consulting opportunities went south. So I spend much less. > > 9. Do you feel your spending habits have changed since 9-11? Yes No? No. My spending had already slowed down with the economy. > > 10. Has any other siginificant change or changes in your life changed your > spending habits? Examples Building a new home, Children, Retiring. Buying a house. > > 11. Which Era do you model? Steam, Diesel, Transition, Electric? 1966-68 -- transition between 1st and 2nd generation diesels > > 12. Do you have your own layout? Yes, No. If no do you belong to a club? > > Tore down home layout 6 months ago for move. Building a new one. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_182.127c9d1a.2b145ee0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/24/02 4:23:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Group,

I was given some advice to create a survey to help my Economics Final paper.
  I appreciate all the responses so far!  Please indulge me once again, This
I hope will put all the responses on an even playing field. I will give a
week time frame to get the survey back to me. Please have them back to me by
December 1st. I will then post the results of the survey. Well here it goes.
  I have geared the questions so that is doesn't matter what scale you are
working in, but probably the majority of us are either N or HO.  Please
state scale you work in first then answer the following  questions.

1. How many of us started modeling trains because you yourself or an
ancestor used to work on the railroad or the PRR in particular?  Please
chose one.... Yourself   Ancestor   X Other reason

2. When purchasing modeling equipment, please rate the following highest to
lowest the priority you put on these particular items.

Price 5
Quality 2
Detail 4
Accuracy 3
DCC Compatible 6
Era 1

3. Which do you prefer Kit or RTR?  All other factors being equal.... Such
as Price, Quality, ETC...


RTR gets used first, assuming it doesn't need a lot of modification.


4. Which do you prefer Kit or RTR in the present state of  manufactured
products?


RTR


5. What manufacturer gives the most bang for your buck in PRR equipment? 
Price vs Quality/Accuracy


Bowser, because street prices are low.  But Intermountain does much nicer equipment.


6. What manufacturer does the best job at representing, our love, the PRR?
If price wasn't a factor.


Lifelike P2K (I run diesels)


7. Where do you prefer to purchase? E-bay, Local hobby shop, Mail order,
Etc.


Mail order


8. Has your purchasing habits changed in the last 3 years?  If so How & Why?


Bought a new house and the economy sank.  Both market and my consulting opportunities went south.  So I spend much less.


9. Do you feel your spending habits have changed since 9-11?  Yes No?


No.  My spending had already slowed down with the economy.


10. Has any other siginificant change or changes in your life changed your
spending habits?  Examples  Building a new home, Children, Retiring.


Buying a house.


11. Which Era do you model? Steam, Diesel, Transition, Electric?


1966-68 -- transition between 1st and 2nd generation diesels


12. Do you have your own layout? Yes, No. If no do you belong to a club?



Tore down home layout 6 months ago for move.  Building a new one.


                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_182.127c9d1a.2b145ee0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 22:21:19 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Aerial photos, in color I found a collection of satellite views of Pennsylvania, housed at Penn State. The text says that the images date from 1998 thru 2000. There is a large collection of data available only to government agencies and schools, but there are some images available to SPFs. Before I give the URL, some cautions: 1. These files are huge, on the order of 10 megabytes each. Going thru my mom and pop ISP, that's about 35 minutes to download one. 2. Practice saying "Patience is a virtue and ought to be cultivated." Do this until it comes trippingly to the tongue. 3. As I was waiting for the thing to download, I scrolled here and there in the part which had downloaded. Big mistake. I induced terminal confusion in my browser and he decided not to display anything (although he kept on downloading). Your milage may vary. The URL: http://www.pasda.psu.edu/access/index.shtml The files are said to be 30 x 30 minutes (latitude and longitude). However, they overlap, so I suspect each is somewhat bigger. To give an idea of scale, file 4107802T.jpg has Clearfield at the top, Altoona, the curve, and Huntingdon at the bottom. Regarding overlap, the apex of the curve and one of the reservoirs is in the very top right corner of 4007803T. The whole curve is well in from the left edge of 4107802T. So, the lower left corner of 4107802T overlaps the upper right corner of 4007803T. (Those names will make more sense once you look at the index at the URL cited above.) The level of detail is not great. However, on 4007803T I was able to pick out the grade of the New Portage Branch. On 4107802T, the curve is easily seen, as well as the whole main line as far east as Huntingdon. I think I was able to pick out at least part of the old Petersburg Branch as well. While this collection covers only Pennsylvania, it appears that there may be other similar collections for other states. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bennett Levin Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:20:21 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Varied South Wind consists As an interesting aside, A>C> Gilbert had a feature on the South Wind in one of their promotional pieces in the late 1940's. IIRC it had interesting shots of the K4 being serviced in Chicago. Bennett Levin RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 11/25/02 12:27:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > > Subject: Re: [PRR] South Wind consists > > From: "A Samostie" > > Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:16:49 -0400 > > > > > > Dear Bob and Group, > > > > I notice that the 1930s era South Wind in HO scale is again being > > advertised by Challenger Imports, Ltd. See page 43 of December 2002 > > Railroad Model Craftsman. The Budd fluted-side consist is accompanied > > by a streamlined PRR K-4. The bullet-end observation car shown in the > > Challenger Imports ad features a keystone-shaped South Wind drumhead. > > > > Was the South Wind a "pure PRR consist" during this era? > > Or, did it always carry L&N, ACL and FEC cars in addition to PRR cars? > > If it did carry cars from the partner roads, were the cars all in the > > same paint scheme for "pool service", or mix-n-match? > > > > I always though it interesting that the NP dome cars found their way > > south during the winter months... during later years, the consist must > > have been a cavalcade of paint schemes. > > > > Cheers, > > Alan Samostie > > > > ELHS #3178 > > > > Gentlemen, > > My first question would be, did the South Wind run in the 30's (it did not, > and certainly not with that Budd consist). The train began Dec 19, 1940, and > sleepers were added April 24, 1949 (Midwest Florida Sunliners). Pictures of > the first southbound trhough Louisville show the Budd consist of coaches and > diner. > > Legend has it that the PRR and the ACL each contributed a "pure" consist. > However, in the sample of color photos I've seen from Louisville railfans of > the postwar era: > > 1. Not once did PRR units get photographed with a pure PRR consist (I CAN > find this in black and white in 1949). > > 2. Not once did ACL units get photographed with a pure ACL consist. > > 3. FEC streamlined baggage cars were common. Of course, they matched the > ACL equipment fairly well. ACL heavyweight baggages also appeared. OTOH, L& > N headend equipment was scarce. And the South Wind didn't work mail, so > RPO's are not visible. > > 4. Consist scrambling goes back to at least July 1948, when the Wind was > still pulled by K4's and T1's. > > 5. The later the picture, the more scrambled the consist. In later years, > one almost gets the impression that the Chicago coach yard was including any > ACL equipment they had on hand, especially on the headend, and then making it > up the balance out of the PRR fleet. OTOH, who can prove they weren't simply > returning whatever the ACL dispatched to them out of Jacksonville? Most > probably a classic case of what happens when a car misses its departure due > to mechanical problems. Soon, things get all mixed up (this happened to unit > train hoppers, too). > > 6. The leased NP dome shows up in one 1967 shot of the northbound South Wind > approaching Louisville. It also shows up in Midwest Florida Sunliners in > April 1968, nearing the end of its last season on the South Wind. My > impression is, the dome didn't run for many winter seasons. > > 7. Of course, we have to factor in the well-known tendency of railfans to > lens the strange, the unusual, and the discordant. I don't imagine railfans > in 1950 were any different -- and that might account for all the variety in > these shots. > > 8. I doubt any modelers will really want to run these mixtures of cars. > Lots of modelers want "pretty" trains, all in one paint scheme. > > Rick Tipton > Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder > plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and > other railroadiana. > Email RickTipton@aol.com > Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) > Wolf Penn Station > 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive > Prospect, KY 40059-9197 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. > > To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = > PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 08:20:21 -0500 From: Bennett Levin Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Varied South Wind consists As an interesting aside, A>C> Gilbert had a feature on the South Wind in one of their promotional pieces in the late 1940's. IIRC it had interesting shots of the K4 being serviced in Chicago. Bennett Levin RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 11/25/02 12:27:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > > Subject: Re: [PRR] South Wind consists > > From: "A Samostie" > > Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 17:16:49 -0400 > > > > > > Dear Bob and Group, > > > > I notice that the 1930s era South Wind in HO scale is again being > > advertised by Challenger Imports, Ltd. See page 43 of December 2002 > > Railroad Model Craftsman. The Budd fluted-side consist is accompanied > > by a streamlined PRR K-4. The bullet-end observation car shown in the > > Challenger Imports ad features a keystone-shaped South Wind drumhead. > > > > Was the South Wind a "pure PRR consist" during this era? > > Or, did it always carry L&N, ACL and FEC cars in addition to PRR cars? > > If it did carry cars from the partner roads, were the cars all in the > > same paint scheme for "pool service", or mix-n-match? > > > > I always though it interesting that the NP dome cars found their way > > south during the winter months... during later years, the consist must > > have been a cavalcade of paint schemes. > > > > Cheers, > > Alan Samostie > > > > ELHS #3178 > > > > Gentlemen, > > My first question would be, did the South Wind run in the 30's (it did not, > and certainly not with that Budd consist). The train began Dec 19, 1940, and > sleepers were added April 24, 1949 (Midwest Florida Sunliners). Pictures of > the first southbound trhough Louisville show the Budd consist of coaches and > diner. > > Legend has it that the PRR and the ACL each contributed a "pure" consist. > However, in the sample of color photos I've seen from Louisville railfans of > the postwar era: > > 1. Not once did PRR units get photographed with a pure PRR consist (I CAN > find this in black and white in 1949). > > 2. Not once did ACL units get photographed with a pure ACL consist. > > 3. FEC streamlined baggage cars were common. Of course, they matched the > ACL equipment fairly well. ACL heavyweight baggages also appeared. OTOH, L& > N headend equipment was scarce. And the South Wind didn't work mail, so > RPO's are not visible. > > 4. Consist scrambling goes back to at least July 1948, when the Wind was > still pulled by K4's and T1's. > > 5. The later the picture, the more scrambled the consist. In later years, > one almost gets the impression that the Chicago coach yard was including any > ACL equipment they had on hand, especially on the headend, and then making it > up the balance out of the PRR fleet. OTOH, who can prove they weren't simply > returning whatever the ACL dispatched to them out of Jacksonville? Most > probably a classic case of what happens when a car misses its departure due > to mechanical problems. Soon, things get all mixed up (this happened to unit > train hoppers, too). > > 6. The leased NP dome shows up in one 1967 shot of the northbound South Wind > approaching Louisville. It also shows up in Midwest Florida Sunliners in > April 1968, nearing the end of its last season on the South Wind. My > impression is, the dome didn't run for many winter seasons. > > 7. Of course, we have to factor in the well-known tendency of railfans to > lens the strange, the unusual, and the discordant. I don't imagine railfans > in 1950 were any different -- and that might account for all the variety in > these shots. > > 8. I doubt any modelers will really want to run these mixtures of cars. > Lots of modelers want "pretty" trains, all in one paint scheme. > > Rick Tipton > Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder > plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and > other railroadiana. > Email RickTipton@aol.com > Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) > Wolf Penn Station > 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive > Prospect, KY 40059-9197 > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> > ·FREE Health Insurance Quotes-eHealthInsurance.com > http://us.click.yahoo.com/1.voSB/RnFFAA/46VHAA/raYplB/TM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. > > To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = > PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 09:50:35 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Aerial photos, in color On Mon, 25 Nov 2002, robert netzlof wrote: > I found a collection of satellite views of Pennsylvania, housed at > Penn State. The text says that the images date from 1998 thru 2000. > There is a large collection of data available only to government > agencies and schools, but there are some images available to SPFs. Old news. These are the same images terraserver.microsoft.com serves. Other states (Among them Ohio, New York, New Jersey, Indiana, West Virginia) also have aerial photos available, but notably not Maryland. Delaware's are reduced resolution. > While this collection covers only Pennsylvania, it appears that there > may be other similar collections for other states. PA has zipped TIFFs online. Good because anything can read them. Bad because they're big. Most other states have MrSid compressed images. Good because they're small. Bad because MrSid isn't a public format, so if you're not using Windows (maybe MacOS now also) uncompressing them is relatively (not absolutely) hard. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 10:02:44 -0500 Subject: [PRR] "Boys 'n Their Toys Tour II" Photos Posted From: Jerry Britton I just finished posting the photos from our tour last weekend. If you go to the search form at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/photos/ and leave the search criteria empty it will automatically show you the most recent photos first. Shots 410-374 are from Ken McCorry's layout. Shots 373-364 are from Paul Backenstose's layout. Pay particular attention to shots 369 and 368 as the camera flash reflected off the marker jewels and made a nice effect. With regard to model pics, I seem to have gotten down aperture priority on the digital camera. I'm getting good depth of field (focal range) now. Next thing to work on is lighting. Shots 363-356 are from Strasburg. The M1 is now out along the highway and looks real good as you enter the area. Now they just need to install a steam generator and a Soundtraxx decoder and your heart will really thump when you arrive! Enjoy the pics... Starting tomorrow morning I'll be offline for a few days. Everyone have a safe and pleasant Thanksgiving holiday! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Caliciotti" Subject: [PRR] penrose and stadium Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:07:55 +0000
Hello all,
 
    I've never seen a photo of Penrose or Stadium towers.  Anyone have any photos?
 
 
Thank you

Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 11:14:35 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Aerial photos, in color Bob points out that I'm confused. He's right. The SPOT imagery is IMO not nearly as useful as the USGS data that Terraserver also has and that PASDA is exporting from the NAPP program: It's not nearly as detailed. I rate it "don't bother". 10 meters per pixel is crap compared to one meter per pixel. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: [PRR] Was B6 - Now HH-1 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:59:21 -0500 The Life-Like/Heritage PRR HH-1's are NOT being rerun. The "new" models are from the same production run as the original release. They are he "overage" that distributors did not preorder. It is somewhat interesting (at leaset to my warped mind) that there were not enough locos in the distribution chain to satisfy the demand and yet there were models sitting in storage. By the way, the "rerelease" of selected GP30's are also left overs - NOT reruns. The distribution channel (with a VERY few exceptions) has the mentality that P2K/Heritage products will NOT be stocked and they only order enough to cover their preorders. Of course, this is just my opinion and I could be wrong. ;o) Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com featuring over 10,000 in stock items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 Voice 732-565-1005 FAX ---------- Original Message ----------- From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr To: billd@gci-net.com, Gary Mittner , KEMACPRR@aol.com Sent: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 00:36:17 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR] B-6 and steam loco cabs > Bill- > > Don't be so sure about BLI and collector status. Look at P2K and > the HH1. The HH1 was announced as a limited run model. Long and > behold, it is being run again. If BLI is cracked up to be all that ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] Was B6 - Now HH-1 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 18:50:34 -0000 Roco, seem to be doing the HH1, at least in Europe, so perhaps they will release it under their own banner?? Patrick Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 5:59 PM Subject: [PRR] Was B6 - Now HH-1 > The Life-Like/Heritage PRR HH-1's are NOT being rerun. The "new" models are > from the same production run as the original release. They are he "overage" > that distributors did not preorder. > > It is somewhat interesting (at leaset to my warped mind) that there were not > enough locos in the distribution chain to satisfy the demand and yet there > were models sitting in storage. By the way, the "rerelease" of selected > GP30's are also left overs - NOT reruns. > > The distribution channel (with a VERY few exceptions) has the mentality that > P2K/Heritage products will NOT be stocked and they only order enough to cover > their preorders. > > Of course, this is just my opinion and I could be wrong. ;o) > > Dennis > > mailto: dennis@onerrave.com > > D & S HOBBIES > http://www.onerrave.com featuring over 10,000 in stock items > 90A Jersey Avenue > New Brunswick, NJ 08901 > > 732-565-1555 Voice > 732-565-1005 FAX > > ---------- Original Message ----------- > From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr > To: billd@gci-net.com, Gary Mittner , KEMACPRR@aol.com > Sent: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 00:36:17 -0500 > Subject: RE: [PRR] B-6 and steam loco cabs > > > Bill- > > > > Don't be so sure about BLI and collector status. Look at P2K and > > the HH1. The HH1 was announced as a limited run model. Long and > > behold, it is being run again. If BLI is cracked up to be all that > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Was B6 - Now HH-1 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:49:25 -0600 Dennis, If what you say is indeed the case, why are nearly all the P2k engines available at deep discounts from their list prices? -----Original Message----- From: Dennis @ D & S Hobbies [mailto:dennis@onerrave.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 11:59 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Was B6 - Now HH-1 The Life-Like/Heritage PRR HH-1's are NOT being rerun. The "new" models are from the same production run as the original release. They are he "overage" that distributors did not preorder. It is somewhat interesting (at leaset to my warped mind) that there were not enough locos in the distribution chain to satisfy the demand and yet there were models sitting in storage. By the way, the "rerelease" of selected GP30's are also left overs - NOT reruns. The distribution channel (with a VERY few exceptions) has the mentality that P2K/Heritage products will NOT be stocked and they only order enough to cover their preorders. Of course, this is just my opinion and I could be wrong. ;o) Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com featuring over 10,000 in stock items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 Voice 732-565-1005 FAX ---------- Original Message ----------- From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr To: billd@gci-net.com, Gary Mittner , KEMACPRR@aol.com Sent: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 00:36:17 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR] B-6 and steam loco cabs > Bill- > > Don't be so sure about BLI and collector status. Look at P2K and > the HH1. The HH1 was announced as a limited run model. Long and > behold, it is being run again. If BLI is cracked up to be all that ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:19:28 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Was B6 - Now HH-1 From: Jerry Britton On 11/26/02 1:49 PM, Cadwell, Marvin L (cadwelml@bp.com) wrote: > If what you say is indeed the case, why are nearly all the P2k engines > available at deep discounts from their list prices? I can concur with what Dennis said. When these "announcements" first hit the Life Like web site, I contacted them. They told me this was product still in the warehouse from the original run. Go figure, during the first run many distributors were telling dealers they were sold out (at least in the case of the HH-1). > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis @ D & S Hobbies [mailto:dennis@onerrave.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 11:59 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Was B6 - Now HH-1 > > > The Life-Like/Heritage PRR HH-1's are NOT being rerun. The "new" models > are > from the same production run as the original release. They are he > "overage" > that distributors did not preorder. > > It is somewhat interesting (at leaset to my warped mind) that there were not > > enough locos in the distribution chain to satisfy the demand and yet there > were models sitting in storage. By the way, the "rerelease" of selected > GP30's are also left overs - NOT reruns. > > The distribution channel (with a VERY few exceptions) has the mentality that > > P2K/Heritage products will NOT be stocked and they only order enough to > cover > their preorders. > > Of course, this is just my opinion and I could be wrong. ;o) > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: RE: [PRR] Was B6 - Now HH-1 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 14:39:43 -0500 Couldn't tell you. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com featuring over 10,000 in stock items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 Voice 732-565-1005 FAX ---------- Original Message ----------- From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "'Dennis @ D & S Hobbies'" , PRR-Talk@dsop.com Sent: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 12:49:25 -0600 Subject: RE: [PRR] Was B6 - Now HH-1 > Dennis, > > If what you say is indeed the case, why are nearly all the P2k > engines available at deep discounts from their list prices? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dennis @ D & S Hobbies [mailto:dennis@onerrave.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 11:59 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Was B6 - Now HH-1 > > The Life-Like/Heritage PRR HH-1's are NOT being rerun. The "new" models > are > from the same production run as the original release. They are he > "overage" > that distributors did not preorder. > > It is somewhat interesting (at leaset to my warped mind) that there > were not > > enough locos in the distribution chain to satisfy the demand and yet > there were models sitting in storage. By the way, the "rerelease" > of selected GP30's are also left overs - NOT reruns. > > The distribution channel (with a VERY few exceptions) has the > mentality that > > P2K/Heritage products will NOT be stocked and they only order enough > to cover their preorders. > > Of course, this is just my opinion and I could be wrong. ;o) > > Dennis > > mailto: dennis@onerrave.com > > D & S HOBBIES > http://www.onerrave.com featuring over 10,000 in stock items > 90A Jersey Avenue > New Brunswick, NJ 08901 > > 732-565-1555 Voice > 732-565-1005 FAX > > ---------- Original Message ----------- > From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr > To: billd@gci-net.com, Gary Mittner , KEMACPRR@aol.com > Sent: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 00:36:17 -0500 > Subject: RE: [PRR] B-6 and steam loco cabs > > > Bill- > > > > Don't be so sure about BLI and collector status. Look at P2K and > > the HH1. The HH1 was announced as a limited run model. Long and > > behold, it is being run again. If BLI is cracked up to be all that > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------- End of Original Message ------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Was B6 - Now HH-1 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:09:01 +0000 So if I understand this thread once they are gone so is the possibility of spare parts. In the case of BLI that would mean that if that high tech decoder/sound system printed circuit board fails a purchaser may have no options too replace it. Or am I over reaching? > The Life-Like/Heritage PRR HH-1's are NOT being rerun. The "new" models are > from the same production run as the original release. They are he "overage" > that distributors did not preorder. > > It is somewhat interesting (at leaset to my warped mind) that there were not > enough locos in the distribution chain to satisfy the demand and yet there > were models sitting in storage. By the way, the "rerelease" of selected > GP30's are also left overs - NOT reruns. > > The distribution channel (with a VERY few exceptions) has the mentality that > P2K/Heritage products will NOT be stocked and they only order enough to cover > their preorders. > > Of course, this is just my opinion and I could be wrong. ;o) > > Dennis > > mailto: dennis@onerrave.com > > D & S HOBBIES > http://www.onerrave.com featuring over 10,000 in stock items > 90A Jersey Avenue > New Brunswick, NJ 08901 > > 732-565-1555 Voice > 732-565-1005 FAX > > ---------- Original Message ----------- > From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr > To: billd@gci-net.com, Gary Mittner , KEMACPRR@aol.com > Sent: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 00:36:17 -0500 > Subject: RE: [PRR] B-6 and steam loco cabs > > > Bill- > > > > Don't be so sure about BLI and collector status. Look at P2K and > > the HH1. The HH1 was announced as a limited run model. Long and > > behold, it is being run again. If BLI is cracked up to be all that > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:15:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Was B6, Now HH1, Back to B6 List, Yesterday Lew put a Challenge to this list. Can't remember it word for word but it was a Challenge. I for one am up for that Challenge, sort of. I am not working on an upgrade of a Bowser loco but something more in line with my taste and needs. A Large Scale B6sb. Lew's comments was all I needed to get started with this project that was in much delay since my 4 Cabins were finished. Yesterday prelim work on the Cab (which started this Bowser debate) began. Here is a quick pic of what has been do so far. http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000692.jpg If the cab work goes well, then the rest of the loco will follow. I believe the steps I took for this cab can also be done in HO Scale if an upgrade of a Bowser casting is wanted. So the sga of the B6sb in underway. It will be more time consuming than the Cabins but I am hopeful it will turn out to resemble something that roamed PRR rails....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Was B6 - Now HH-1 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:28:13 -0500 I believe that the electronics are provided by QSI and they are based in the US. At this point, to my knowledge, the boards are NOT available separately. I am hopeful that they will eventually be available for sale without the BLI loco. It is possible that the deal with BLI gave QSI an "in" with low cost, Asian manufacturers. In electronics, it appears that pricing is based on volume - the more made the less expensive per unit. Here's hoping to a large volume of BLI locos and QSI sound units that may be available separately in the future. It would be NICE to have more than one primary provider of DCC/Sound decoders. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com featuring over 10,000 in stock items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 Voice 732-565-1005 FAX ---------- Original Message ----------- From: ndbprr@att.net To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com (PRR-Talk), "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Sent: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:09:01 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] Was B6 - Now HH-1 > So if I understand this thread once they are gone so is the > possibility of spare parts. In the case of BLI that would mean that > if that high tech decoder/sound system printed circuit board fails a > purchaser may have no options too replace it. Or am I over reaching? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] FD2 drawings Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 17:14:43 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C2956F.4FED5EA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello listmembers, Does anyone have a set of detailed drawings for this = car they would be willing to share? I will pay for a copy of these. This = is for a winter project of mine. If not does anyone know were I could = find this info? Thanks Ken. ------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C2956F.4FED5EA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello listmembers, Does anyone have a = set of=20 detailed drawings for this car they would be willing to share? I will = pay for a=20 copy of these. This is for a winter project of mine. If not does = anyone=20 know were I could find this info? Thanks Ken.
------=_NextPart_000_0049_01C2956F.4FED5EA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Was B6 - Now HH-1 Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:50:38 -0600 Hi! Talk about being confused about marketing! I don't understand. If the theory is to sell as many as can be produced, then why not offer it separate in addition to in the BLI Locos to increase sales? DUH! And - How could anyone argue with some competition for Soundtraxx? A Denver based outfit that refuses to admit there's any PRR railfans wanting sound in their locos. This list has had many a person admonishing those of us who complain. But, look at what we contend with! Manufacturers who refuse to put antennae's on diesels because the market is too small, but then make FM C-Liners with different paint schemes on the A and B. And Soundtraxx. -Phooey! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF > It is possible that the deal with BLI gave QSI an "in" with low cost, Asian manufacturers. In electronics, it appears that pricing is based on volume - the more made the less expensive per unit. Here's hoping to a large volume of BLI locos and QSI sound units that may be available separately in the future. It would be NICE to have more than one primary provider of DCC/Sound decoders. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: [PRR] Anyon in Lexington, Ohio Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:51:36 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0B56_01C2956C.153B2740 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Listers: Anyon on the List in or near Lexington, Ohio? Please contact = me off list. PRR related. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_0B56_01C2956C.153B2740 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Listers:  Anyon on the List in or = near=20 Lexington, Ohio?  Please contact me off list.  PRR=20 related.
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
------=_NextPart_000_0B56_01C2956C.153B2740-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 19:29:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] penrose and stadium Photo of "Stadium" tower (built 1942) can be found in the Autumn-Winter 1989 issue of the High Line magazine on page 17. "Penrose" interlocking was built in late 1946 and "remote controlled" from Stadium Tower in 1949. Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 21:36:05 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Survey Results of the 6th Annual Needs Survey (LONG) > > Here are the results of the 6th Annual "Keystone Crossings/PRR-Talk" > Modeling Needs Survey! > > The results will be sent to several dozen model manufactuers. Each year a > few of our highest ranking items are either produced or announced. This > survey seems to have some effect on production. > > This year the survey went out to approximately 600 subscribers. We received > 59 responses...a 10% return. Thank you for your participation! > > Respondents were asked to list their top three desired models within each > classification. Any additional entries within a classification were > discarded. > > Products are in order of votes received WITHOUT consideration of multiple > sales per vote, though some are noted (one line of comment per vote). Those > receiving an equal number of votes are in no particular order. > > Some of the answers were subject to interpretation. I did the best I could! > > ----------------------------------HO SCALE--------------------------------- >[SNIP]< > DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: >{SNIP< >(2) EF15/EH15 (EMD F3) ***AVAILIBLE! [SNIP] > (1) BS6 (Baldwin VO660)***RETRO A STEWART [SNIP] > (1) EP22 (EMD E8) ****COMING AGAIN FROM LLP2K [SNIP] > (1) EP20 (accurate) (EMD E7)****COMING from BLI > (1) (RDC-1)****AVAILIBLE LIFE LIKE P1K [SNIP] > (1) FS24m (FM Trainmaster)**** FIX ATHEARN > > FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: [SNIP] > (4) X58 **** COMING > (3) H30 covered hopper **** COMING > (3) G38/G39 Ore gennies *** COMING > (2) FGEX reefers *** WHICH? [SNIP] > (2) G31 **** COMING [SNIP} > (1) X29 with patch plates already on lower side sills *** EASY TO MODEL [SNIP} > (1) auto racks *** TRY ACCURAIL AVAILIBLE > (1) F30d (TrucTrain)*** CALL STAN Radarowicz for the parts [SNIP} > (1) G32 **** Coming And So On.... More things are coming... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 22:03:57 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Survey Results of the 6th Annual Needs Survey (LONG) On Tue, 26 Nov 2002 TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > >[SNIP]< > > DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: > > (1) FS24m (FM Trainmaster)**** FIX ATHEARN I didn't vote for it, because, well, that was my solution, but the Athearn trucks are crude and there's no replacement for them, either. > > FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: > [SNIP] > > (4) X58 **** COMING >From whom? > And So On.... More things are coming... Until I have it in my hands, or I hear about it from a vendor known to deliver, it doesn't exist. Someone elsewhere said he was going to have molds cut of the EMD T-6. That was probably 6 years ago. When asked, he said his mold-maker died. I believe him, too, but it was "coming" and I still don't have it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 07:31:16 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] "1963" FGE two-striper RBL lettering spotted in 1952? In a message dated 11/26/02 8:58:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:06:29 EST > From: BlackDiamondRR@cs.com > Subject: Re: Update on RB/RBL in FGE two-striper paint (two phases, 195... > > Rick, I just saw a photo, not real clear, but definitely an RB 40' 2 stripe > > plug door insulated box behind Pennsy steam (a B6 switcher) taken in > Oct.1952. The photo is in Pennsy Steam Years volume #1 by Sweetland, pg > 110. > This is a color shot. Bud Rindfleisch Folks, By some bizarre miracle, I have that book on hand. Bud is right. The car's the second behind the engine, but it's easy to see that its lettering is "Fruit Growers Express" on the left and "Insulated" on the right. Unfortunately, the reporting mark is not distinct enough for us to get marks or a car number. If this Marvin Cohen photo of B6 #1485 at Altoona Works is indeed from October 1952, then this earlier of the 2 two-striper schemes existed years before our previous evidence indicated, and was probably the painting standard for these cars from 1952 to at least 1964. Nice spotting, Bud -- and thanks for the assist. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 07:31:16 EST Subject: [PRR] "1963" FGE two-striper RBL lettering spotted in 1952? --part1_14e.17e66d4d.2b161514_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/26/02 8:58:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:06:29 EST > From: BlackDiamondRR@cs.com > Subject: Re: Update on RB/RBL in FGE two-striper paint (two phases, 195... > > Rick, I just saw a photo, not real clear, but definitely an RB 40' 2 stripe > > plug door insulated box behind Pennsy steam (a B6 switcher) taken in > Oct.1952. The photo is in Pennsy Steam Years volume #1 by Sweetland, pg > 110. > This is a color shot. Bud Rindfleisch Folks, By some bizarre miracle, I have that book on hand. Bud is right. The car's the second behind the engine, but it's easy to see that its lettering is "Fruit Growers Express" on the left and "Insulated" on the right. Unfortunately, the reporting mark is not distinct enough for us to get marks or a car number. If this Marvin Cohen photo of B6 #1485 at Altoona Works is indeed from October 1952, then this earlier of the 2 two-striper schemes existed years before our previous evidence indicated, and was probably the painting standard for these cars from 1952 to at least 1964. Nice spotting, Bud -- and thanks for the assist. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_14e.17e66d4d.2b161514_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/26/02 8:58:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 2
   Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 10:06:29 EST
   From: BlackDiamondRR@cs.com
Subject: Re: Update on RB/RBL in FGE two-striper paint (two phases, 195...

Rick, I just saw a photo, not real clear, but definitely an RB 40' 2 stripe
plug door insulated box behind Pennsy steam (a B6 switcher) taken in
Oct.1952. The photo is in Pennsy Steam Years volume #1 by Sweetland, pg 110.
This is a color shot. Bud Rindfleisch


Folks,

By some bizarre miracle, I have that book on hand.  Bud is right.  The car's the second behind the engine, but it's easy to see that its lettering is "Fruit Growers Express" on the left and "Insulated" on the right.  Unfortunately, the reporting mark is not distinct enough for us to get marks or a car number.

If this Marvin Cohen photo of B6 #1485 at Altoona Works is indeed from October 1952, then this earlier of the 2 two-striper schemes existed years before our previous evidence indicated, and was probably the painting standard for these cars from 1952 to at least 1964.

Nice spotting, Bud -- and thanks for the assist.

                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_14e.17e66d4d.2b161514_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 07:31:07 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: HTML formatting on PRR messages --part1_107.1bb1e800.2b16150b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/26/02 2:37:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, john@mpa-inc.com writes: > Rick > > Can you turn off HTML formatting on your email ? > > Thanks > John > John, No, I can't defeat it. I hate the stuff, and used to ask others to turn it off. I've never understood why it's desirable or even acceptable for simple email. AOL users lost the ability to turn this crap off with AOL 5.0. Ever since, AOL has pretended this isn't a problem for anybody. Seemingly my only choice is to change ISP's -- something I've been unwilling to do as long as I was in the middle of the Jack Fravert auctions. Also, my family thinks AOL is really great. I notice that some email lists manage to filter out the HTML portions of my messages. Still others won't accept my messages at all, as they deem HTML portions too likely to contain viruses. Since I don't fully understand the spread of capabilities here, our moderator and sysop Jerry Britton may choose to comment on the problem. I definitely notice my HTML echoing on PRR-Talk. Sorry it's irritating you. Believe me, it irritates me worse -- seeing all my messages strung out twice. Makes me feel bad every time I see it -- a total waste of bandwidth (yours and mine). Apologies to everyone for AOL's pigheadedness and my inability to get a better ISP. PS -- I know the dodge to avoid getting HTML'd by using a different browser. Unfortunately, it requires you to be online. But I'm a dialup with only one phone line, so I use "flash sessions" to upload and download in the middle of the night. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_107.1bb1e800.2b16150b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/26/02 2:37:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, john@mpa-inc.com writes:


Rick

Can you turn off HTML formatting on your email ?

Thanks
John


John,

No, I can't defeat it.  I hate the stuff, and used to ask others to turn it off.  I've never understood why it's desirable or even acceptable for simple email.

AOL users lost the ability to turn this crap off with AOL 5.0.  Ever since, AOL has pretended this isn't a problem for anybody.  Seemingly my only choice is to change ISP's -- something I've been unwilling to do as long as I was in the middle of the Jack Fravert auctions.  Also, my family thinks AOL is really great.

I notice that some email lists manage to filter out the HTML portions of my messages.  Still others won't accept my messages at all, as they deem HTML portions too likely to contain viruses.  Since I don't fully understand the spread of capabilities here, our moderator and sysop Jerry Britton may choose to comment on the problem.  I definitely notice my HTML echoing on PRR-Talk.

Sorry it's irritating you.  Believe me, it irritates me worse -- seeing all my messages strung out twice.  Makes me feel bad every time I see it -- a total waste of bandwidth (yours and mine).

Apologies to everyone for AOL's pigheadedness and my inability to get a better ISP.

PS -- I know the dodge to avoid getting HTML'd by using a different browser.  Unfortunately, it requires you to be online.  But I'm a dialup with only one phone line, so I use "flash sessions" to upload and download in the middle of the night.

                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_107.1bb1e800.2b16150b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: HTML formatting on PRR messages Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:02:12 +0000 When I had AOL I would sign on and go to the internet and come back in through AOL.com. As I remember that is not html. When I was done responding to PRR- talk I would just go back to the regular AOL. You may want to try that. Norm Bell > In a message dated 11/26/02 2:37:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, > john@mpa-inc.com writes: > > > > Rick > > > > Can you turn off HTML formatting on your email ? > > > > Thanks > > John > > > > John, > > No, I can't defeat it. I hate the stuff, and used to ask others to turn it > off. I've never understood why it's desirable or even acceptable for simple > email. > > AOL users lost the ability to turn this crap off with AOL 5.0. Ever since, > AOL has pretended this isn't a problem for anybody. Seemingly my only choice > is to change ISP's -- something I've been unwilling to do as long as I was in > the middle of the Jack Fravert auctions. Also, my family thinks AOL is > really great. > > I notice that some email lists manage to filter out the HTML portions of my > messages. Still others won't accept my messages at all, as they deem HTML > portions too likely to contain viruses. Since I don't fully understand the > spread of capabilities here, our moderator and sysop Jerry Britton may choose > to comment on the problem. I definitely notice my HTML echoing on PRR-Talk. > > Sorry it's irritating you. Believe me, it irritates me worse -- seeing all > my messages strung out twice. Makes me feel bad every time I see it -- a > total waste of bandwidth (yours and mine). > > Apologies to everyone for AOL's pigheadedness and my inability to get a > better ISP. > > PS -- I know the dodge to avoid getting HTML'd by using a different browser. > Unfortunately, it requires you to be online. But I'm a dialup with only one > phone line, so I use "flash sessions" to upload and download in the middle of > the night. > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Building a new Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Weinschenker" Subject: [PRR] Washington PA Engine Facilities Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:36:37 -0500 Greetings- My name is Jim Weinschenker and I am authoring a new book about the Waynesburg & Washington RR, the first narrow gauge owned by the mighty Pennsy. I have located well over 200 unpublished photographs with about 180 or so appearing in the book. The book will be released October 2003. However, I am having difficulty locating photographs and/or maps/trackcharts of the Washington PA engine facilities. Does anyone know where I could pick up some of this information? Thanks for your time and the book may be pre-ordered by going to www.lightirondigest.com website, clicking on "Books & Plans", and then scrolling down to my book. Sincerely yours, JIM Jim Weinschenker 775 Race Street Waynesburg, PA 15370 M2FQ Publications, Accounts Manager http://www.lightirondigest.com/ http://www.narrowtracks.com/wwrr/index.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 09:42:43 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: [PRR] Open House Schuylkill Valley Model RR Club is open again for the holidays. 400 South Main Street Phoenixville, PA 19460 610-935-1126 Saturdays and Sundays 1-5 PM Nov 30 Dec 1, 7, 8, Jan 4, 5, 11, 12, 18, 19. Modeling Philadelphia to Reading on the Schuylkill Valley RR. Much PRR equiptment runs, mostly steam. K4s, HH1's, AS616's, FA1/FB1. 30 years in the making. branch line connects an entire mountain logging diorama to the mainline-connecting Reading with Philadelphia. Need directions? contact me via email. Greg V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Thanksgiving Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:24:06 +0000 Just thought I would take the time to say Happy Thanksgiving to the many contributers to the PRR discussion. May your Thanksgviving dinner be in the diner of the train of your choice somewhere on the great Pennsylvania Railroad. Mine will mentally be on the Afternoon Congressional somwhere south of Philadelphia. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: [PRR] Re: Olde Fashion Christmas Open House Shows Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:58:47 -0500 Holly, Michigan The Detroit Model Railroad Club - 68 years old. 2 rail "O" Scale. Layout room multi level, 36' wide by 120 feet long. Open house dates this weekend. Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Noon to 5 PM. 104 North Saginaw Street 248-634-5811 for directions. Heavy weight PRR passenger train pulled by a variety of steam and diesel power. K-4's, E-8's, Baldwin Sharks A-B-A set. Freight, pulled by GP-9, A & B (Yes a GP-9B cabless) Q-2, I-1, M-1a and HH1. Come see the trains. Contact me for more info. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: Re: [PRR] Was B6 - Now HH-1 Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:55:46 -0500 Lets give them a little time first. They just released their first engine and only have a sample of their second for show. I hope they do release the sound boards and I wouldn't be surprised if QSI did this themselves. QSI used to big the sound card provider for MTH trains (Ogauge). Eric > [Original Message] > From: PennsyNut > To: PRR-Talk > Date: 11/26/02 5:50:38 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Was B6 - Now HH-1 > > Hi! > > Talk about being confused about marketing! I don't understand. > > If the theory is to sell as many as can be produced, then why not offer it > separate in addition to in the BLI Locos to increase sales? > > DUH! > > And - How could anyone argue with some competition for Soundtraxx? A Denver > based outfit that refuses to admit there's any PRR railfans wanting sound in > their locos. > > This list has had many a person admonishing those of us who complain. But, > look at what we contend with! Manufacturers who refuse to put antennae's on > diesels because the market is too small, but then make FM C-Liners with > different paint schemes on the A and B. And Soundtraxx. -Phooey! > > Morgan Bilbo > Ferroequinologist > PRRTHS #1204 and SPF > > > It is possible that the deal with BLI gave QSI an "in" with low cost, > Asian manufacturers. In electronics, it appears that pricing is based on > volume - the more made the less expensive per unit. Here's hoping to a > large volume of BLI locos and QSI sound units that may be available > separately in the future. It would be NICE to have more than one primary > provider of DCC/Sound decoders. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 11:09:34 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: HTML formatting on PRR messages - OT Hi Rick, All, Say Rick. Just what exactly is your email doing so that you "definitely notice my HTML echoing on PRR-Talk"? I don't see anything in your post that appears to be html, nor do I see it on at least two other lists: PRR-FAX & PRR-Modeling. On the latter two lists there is a note at the bottom that states: "[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]". I've seen posts from people in the past that had what appeared to be the same text repeated in html format below the message. Is this what you are referring to? I am not seeing this in your posts. In other words, your posts seem to be ok as far as I can tell. Am I missing something here? Respectfully, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Olde Fashion Christmas Open House Shows Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 12:32:21 -0700 Weldon, If I am not mistaken, this is the club that used to be at the Michigan State Fairgrounds, correct? How long have you been in Holly? Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:28:26 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: HTML formatting on PRR messages - OT When I get an email message in HTML, my mail application asks me if I want to open it in a browser, or read it as plain text; presumably, the mail app converts it to plain text in this case. Almost all "spam" messages seem to arrive as HTML these days. But the peculiar thing is, I have many correspondents on AOL, and this seldom if ever happens; this leads me to believe that most AOL subscribers send their mail as plain text. I asked one of them and he says no problem, he sends all his mail as text. I believe he is on the latest AOL software. Maybe different AOL subscribers have different AOL software or something? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:41:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Was B6 - Now HH-1 My guess is BLI has a contract/deal with QSI for those new DC type sound boards. This deal would include not supplying these boards to any other company (or individual) or for marketing these themselves for a agreed upon time period. I know if I was BLI this would be a requirement. I am sure other companies are scrambling for a copy of this sound board to have duplicated for production of their future products that may compete with BLI. One must keep up with the Jones's you know. Again, this is speculation and I could be completely off base......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bejm@eeg.ccf.org Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 15:51:52 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] penrose and stadium On Tue, Nov 26, 2002 at 07:29:16PM -0500, zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > > Photo of "Stadium" tower (built 1942) can be found in the > Autumn-Winter 1989 issue of the High Line magazine on page 17. > "Penrose" interlocking was built in late 1946 and "remote > controlled" from Stadium Tower in 1949. Hope this helps. Diagrams are on my site, http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/ Look under Philadelphia branches. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] "1963" FGE two-striper RBL lettering Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:45:47 -0500 I posted my reply last Saturday but I am reposting it since I am not sure if it made it to the list. On Saturday at the Hamburg NY train show I purchased a Bob's photo of one such Pennsy car. RBNX 81176 with a new date of 4-55. The car includes the following. "When Empty Return to PRR Railroad Camp Hill Pa." The photograph is a going away shot of L1 110 in what I think is Enola Yard. So the cars were available at the tail end of the steam era. What industry in Camp Hill would use these cars? I am going to look into modeling this car at some point. In addition I have a photo of RBNX 80998 which is in the same number series, and shows a built date of 3-53. The Jan 1955 Westerfield Equipment Register lists 994 cars in the 80,000 - 81,999 at that point. The listing also hasa star next to it denoting an addition to the register. Brian carlson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 17:45:47 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR-Modeling] "1963" FGE two-striper RBL lettering spotted in 1952? I posted my reply last Saturday but I am reposting it since I am not sure if it made it to the list. On Saturday at the Hamburg NY train show I purchased a Bob's photo of one such Pennsy car. RBNX 81176 with a new date of 4-55. The car includes the following. "When Empty Return to PRR Railroad Camp Hill Pa." The photograph is a going away shot of L1 110 in what I think is Enola Yard. So the cars were available at the tail end of the steam era. What industry in Camp Hill would use these cars? I am going to look into modeling this car at some point. In addition I have a photo of RBNX 80998 which is in the same number series, and shows a built date of 3-53. The Jan 1955 Westerfield Equipment Register lists 994 cars in the 80,000 - 81,999 at that point. The listing also hasa star next to it denoting an addition to the register. Brian carlson "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Olde Fashion Christmas Open House Shows Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:06:43 -0500 Great memory Bill!!! We moved to Holly after we were booted out of the Fairgrounds. The Club was at the Fairgrounds from 1957 to 1973. Now we own our building so barring some unforeseen event, we are here to stay. Come and see us if you can. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Weldon Greiger" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 2:32 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Olde Fashion Christmas Open House Shows > Weldon, > > If I am not mistaken, this is the club that used to be at > the Michigan State Fairgrounds, correct? How long have you > been in Holly? > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Olde Fashion Christmas Open House Shows Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 01:03:06 -0500 Bill: I realize this is a bit off topic, but, I and one other Club member are PRR freaks to keep this message on the PRR. In fact part of the new layout, 1974 to present, is called the Middle Division and mountainous with three tunnels on a double track main line, ALA west of Altoona. The other PRR guy did most of the design and layout of the track plan. He could not convince the Club to do four tracks. BTW, the ex PM 1223, (sister to the OPERATING ex PM 1225 out of Owosso, Michigan) was removed from the Fairgrounds by the Michigan National Guard by using "snap track". They leap frogged sections of track from the Grandstands to the nearby CN, former Grand Trunk Holly subdivision on to Grand Haven, MI where she has been cosmetically restored along with an old caboose in a park, near a coaling tower. With the exception of the track on which 1223 sets the rest of the track had been abandoned and removed some years ago. If there is a way to post some photos, I'll have prints made from my slides taken there last year. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Weldon Greiger" Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Olde Fashion Christmas Open House Shows > Weldon, > > I remember seeing it when I was a kid...mostly remember the > dime-operated control panels out front. And the ex-C&O, > ex-PM Berk (since it is an ex-PM locomotive, it is a Berk > and not a Kanawa). Wonder where it is these days? > > Would love to visit someday, but it's a wee bit of a drive > from my place... > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > > On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 19:06:43 -0500 > "Weldon Greiger" wrote: > > Great memory Bill!!! We moved to Holly after we were > > booted out of the > > Fairgrounds. The Club was at the Fairgrounds from 1957 > > to 1973. > > > > Now we own our building so barring some unforeseen event, > > we are here to > > stay. Come and see us if you can. > > > > All the best to you and yours Weldon > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 07:34:07 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Research libraries/profit centers/thoughts on nonprofit preferences In a message dated 11/27/02 4:36:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 00:54:31 -0600 > From: Richard Wallis > Subject: Re: Friendly library? > > > > RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > > I can't remember -- is this library friendly to researchers, or is it the > one > > in St. Louis run by the library director/MBA who discovered a new "profit > > center" and price-gouges for access, copies, and publication rights? > Note: > > I'm operating from hearsay, not experience -- but my research-librarian > > sister (MLS and MBA) confirms that some nonprofits now operate on the > basis > > of funding/overfunding their budgets from users. > > I think that's a big ten-four, good buddy. I know that acquiring > permission for one measly photo > was going to cost me an astronomical sum, including research time > calculated on the quarter-hour, > and a splendiferous charge for repro and usage. Needless to say, I quickly > took my business > elsewhere--up the street to the Missouri Historical Society. > > Richard Wallis > I know that since Charles S. Roberts' lambasting of the PRRT&HS in Triumph II this is a touchy subject with many of us... but here we see much the same greedy behavior exhibited by a nonprofit that Roberts criticized in his essay "The Virulent Nonprofit Virus". We don't agree on everything, but I do agree with Mr. Roberts that nonprofits should remember why they are given preferential regulatory and tax treatment by governments. The legal theory is that they exist to promote the public good -- not to maximize their incomes (or their donations, for that matter). Acting as a monopolist when pricing access to scarce resources is hard to defend. The public has a right to protest against this when it occurs. Notice I didn't say I agree with everything Mr. Roberts said in his essay. I have at least some reason to believe he was angry with the PRRT&HS because his "open sesame" at the time didn't work. Of course, given the status of our archives at the time, I suspect we couldn't have honored his requests with a gun held on us. Add to that his frustration at the criticism of Triumph I for many small errors and poorly selected terms that I suppose only a battery of old PRR hands could have eliminated from his manuscript, and I suspect publisher/author Roberts was smoking worse than a poorly fired T1. Certainly, he gave us in PRRT&HS a terrible black eye that we will live with for years, because the readership of his books is much larger than Society membership. Nevertheless, he brought up some good points for "nonprofit governance". Nonprofits can't get away with abusing the public forever. Nonprofits will have to clean up their own act, or politicians/regulators will be empowered to do this for them. He also points out that each of us can decide before our demise where our collections will be donated. Anyway, given Richard Wallis' experience, that's one library I won't steer archive materials toward. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 07:34:07 EST Subject: [PRR] Research libraries/profit centers/thoughts on nonprofit --part1_173.12016af1.2b17673f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/27/02 4:36:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 00:54:31 -0600 > From: Richard Wallis > Subject: Re: Friendly library? > > > > RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > > I can't remember -- is this library friendly to researchers, or is it the > one > > in St. Louis run by the library director/MBA who discovered a new "profit > > center" and price-gouges for access, copies, and publication rights? > Note: > > I'm operating from hearsay, not experience -- but my research-librarian > > sister (MLS and MBA) confirms that some nonprofits now operate on the > basis > > of funding/overfunding their budgets from users. > > I think that's a big ten-four, good buddy. I know that acquiring > permission for one measly photo > was going to cost me an astronomical sum, including research time > calculated on the quarter-hour, > and a splendiferous charge for repro and usage. Needless to say, I quickly > took my business > elsewhere--up the street to the Missouri Historical Society. > > Richard Wallis > I know that since Charles S. Roberts' lambasting of the PRRT&HS in Triumph II this is a touchy subject with many of us... but here we see much the same greedy behavior exhibited by a nonprofit that Roberts criticized in his essay "The Virulent Nonprofit Virus". We don't agree on everything, but I do agree with Mr. Roberts that nonprofits should remember why they are given preferential regulatory and tax treatment by governments. The legal theory is that they exist to promote the public good -- not to maximize their incomes (or their donations, for that matter). Acting as a monopolist when pricing access to scarce resources is hard to defend. The public has a right to protest against this when it occurs. Notice I didn't say I agree with everything Mr. Roberts said in his essay. I have at least some reason to believe he was angry with the PRRT&HS because his "open sesame" at the time didn't work. Of course, given the status of our archives at the time, I suspect we couldn't have honored his requests with a gun held on us. Add to that his frustration at the criticism of Triumph I for many small errors and poorly selected terms that I suppose only a battery of old PRR hands could have eliminated from his manuscript, and I suspect publisher/author Roberts was smoking worse than a poorly fired T1. Certainly, he gave us in PRRT&HS a terrible black eye that we will live with for years, because the readership of his books is much larger than Society membership. Nevertheless, he brought up some good points for "nonprofit governance". Nonprofits can't get away with abusing the public forever. Nonprofits will have to clean up their own act, or politicians/regulators will be empowered to do this for them. He also points out that each of us can decide before our demise where our collections will be donated. Anyway, given Richard Wallis' experience, that's one library I won't steer archive materials toward. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_173.12016af1.2b17673f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/27/02 4:36:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 3
   Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 00:54:31 -0600
   From: Richard Wallis <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Friendly library?



RickTipton@aol.com wrote:

> I can't remember -- is this library friendly to researchers, or is it the one
> in St. Louis run by the library director/MBA who discovered a new "profit
> center" and price-gouges for access, copies, and publication rights?  Note:
> I'm operating from hearsay, not experience -- but my research-librarian
> sister (MLS and MBA) confirms that some nonprofits now operate on the basis
> of funding/overfunding their budgets from users.

I think that's a big ten-four, good buddy.  I know that acquiring permission for one measly photo
was going to cost me an astronomical sum, including research time calculated on the quarter-hour,
and a splendiferous charge for repro and usage.  Needless to say, I quickly took my business
elsewhere--up the street to the Missouri Historical Society.

Richard Wallis


I know that since Charles S. Roberts' lambasting of the PRRT&HS in Triumph II this is a touchy subject with many of us... but here we see much the same greedy behavior exhibited by a nonprofit that Roberts criticized in his essay "The Virulent Nonprofit Virus".

We don't agree on everything, but I do agree with Mr. Roberts that nonprofits should remember why they are given preferential regulatory and tax treatment by governments.  The legal theory is that they exist to promote the public good -- not to maximize their incomes (or their donations, for that matter).  Acting as a monopolist when pricing access to scarce resources is hard to defend.  The public has a right to protest against this when it occurs.

Notice I didn't say I agree with everything Mr. Roberts said in his essay.  I have at least some reason to believe he was angry with the PRRT&HS because his "open sesame" at the time didn't work.  Of course, given the status of our archives at the time, I suspect we couldn't have honored his requests with a gun held on us.  Add to that his frustration at the criticism of Triumph I for many small errors and poorly selected terms that I suppose only a battery of old PRR hands could have eliminated from his manuscript, and I suspect publisher/author Roberts was smoking worse than a poorly fired T1.  Certainly, he gave us in PRRT&HS a terrible black eye that we will live with for years, because the readership of his books is much larger than Society membership.

Nevertheless, he brought up some good points for "nonprofit governance".  Nonprofits can't get away with abusing the public forever.   Nonprofits will have to clean up their own act, or politicians/regulators will be empowered to do this for them.  He also points out that each of us can decide before our demise where our collections will be donated.

Anyway, given Richard Wallis' experience, that's one library I won't steer archive materials toward.


                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_173.12016af1.2b17673f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: [PRR] 46th St and Race St Engine Houses Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 09:27:44 -0800 Where was 46th St engine house? I know where 44th st and 52nd st is. Was this in the 52nd street yard somewhere? Where was the Race St engine house? John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 13:11:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] 46th St and Race St Engine Houses Yes John, The 46th street Engine House was "in" the 52nd Street Yard. 48th and Parkside Ave was the location of the roundhouse. "Race St." is the engine pit at 30th Street Station next to the Penn Coach Yard. Hope this helps. Happy Thanksgiving! Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] 46th St and Race St Engine Houses Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2002 10:58:59 -0800 > The 46th street Engine House was "in" the 52nd Street Yard. 48th >and Parkside Ave was the location of the roundhouse. Looking at some maps and satelite imagery, it looks like it would have been in the "northeast" corner of the yard, out where some running tracks ran along the north perimeter of the yard. Is this correct? The satelite imagery from 1992 shows something round in that area. Would that have been the turntable? > "Race St." is the engine pit at 30th Street Station next to the >Penn Coach Yard. Oh, I know where that is. Thanks. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 07:37:42 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Wrapping up FGE's insulated box car schemes? In a message dated 11/28/02 1:09:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > I posted my reply last Saturday but I am reposting it since I am not sure if > it made it to the list. On Saturday at the Hamburg NY train show I > purchased a Bob's photo > of one such Pennsy car. RBNX 81176 with a new date of 4-55. The car > includes > the following. "When Empty Return to PRR Railroad Camp Hill Pa." The > photograph is a going away shot of L1 110 in what I think is Enola Yard. So > the cars were available at the tail end of the steam era. What industry in > Camp Hill would use these cars? I am going to look into modeling this car > at some point. > > In addition I have a photo of RBNX 80998 which is in the same number > series, > and shows a built date of 3-53. > > The Jan 1955 Westerfield Equipment Register lists 994 cars in the 80,000 - > 81,999 at that point. The listing also hasa star next to it denoting an > addition to the register. > > Brian carlson > > Brian, Interesting how this is shaking out. I'm assuming that both the cars you're talking about now are 40' plug door insulated box cars, yellow with red ends, and have the two black stripes with "Fruit Growers Express" between them on the left and "Insulated" on the right. Even though we have a Marvin Cohen shot (number not legible as reproduced in Pennsy Steam Years V1) at Altoona dated October 1952 (and Marvin took a large number of pix with comparable dates on the Middle Division that October), I had trouble verifying the car with an ORER. Like your 1955 edition, the January 1953 ORER (reprinted by NMRA) shows an RBNX series 80000 to 80999, but with no car total, as if the installation of cars was contemplated but had not begun. However, we know some of these listings could lag reality at times. Tentatively, I've concluded that this earlier two-striper scheme started with RBNX cars no later than Oct 1952, and continued to 1969 or later as the standard scheme for 40' cars, including cars with FGE-owner reporting marks (definitely including PRR, as such cars survived into Penn Central days). It's clear that some of these 40 footers were built by ACF instead of FGE. For those that care, I'm coding this scheme as IFGE52 in my records, meaning Insulated Box, Fruit Growers Express, appearing 1952. IFGE52 was also the scheme used on the earliest 50-footers that FGE was building for its members. Earliest appearance of the For Greatest Efficiency scheme was 1964, so I'm coding this IFGE64. The two stripes disappeared in 1972, which created an insulated boxcar with lettering almost exactly the same lettering style and layout FGE mechanical reefers carried since 1965. On RB/RBL's, I call this IFGE72, and there are many, many published photos of these cars. By 1974, FGE insulated boxcars were receiving a much oranger paint new or as shopped. Tentatively, I've tagged this IFGE74o to remind me to look for the orange paint. As we all know, yellow and orange are hard colors for printers to render accurately, but there seems to be no doubt that yellow changed to orange about this time. Now is everyone totally confused? Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 07:37:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: HTML formatting on PRR messages --part1_1a0.c8f1cbd.2b18b987_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/28/02 1:09:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: HTML formatting on PRR messages > From: > Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:02:12 +0000 > > When I had AOL I would sign on and go to the internet and come back in > through > AOL.com. As I remember that is not html. When I was done responding to > PRR- > talk I would just go back to the regular AOL. You may want to try that. > Norm > Bell > Hi Norm, That's the workaround I was talking about. You have to go online to do that -- not an option for a busy household with a teenager, fax traffic, and one phone line. I compose throughout the day (and night). My traffic accumulates, and one automatic up/download runs in the very early morning. So I can't avoid spamming my fellows with that @%$#@ HTML garbage. Again, sorry. My apologies to all PRR-Talkers. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_1a0.c8f1cbd.2b18b987_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/28/02 1:09:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: HTML formatting on PRR messages
From: <ndbprr@att.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2002 14:02:12 +0000

When I had AOL I would sign on and go to the internet and come back in through
AOL.com.  As I remember that is not html. When I was done responding to PRR-
talk I would just go back to the regular AOL.  You may want to try that.  Norm
Bell


Hi Norm,

That's the workaround I was talking about.  You have to go online to do that -- not an option for a busy household with a teenager, fax traffic, and one phone line.

I compose throughout the day (and night).  My traffic accumulates, and one automatic up/download runs in the very early morning.  So I can't avoid spamming my fellows with that @%$#@ HTML garbage.  Again, sorry.  My apologies to all PRR-Talkers.


                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_1a0.c8f1cbd.2b18b987_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 07:37:42 EST Subject: [PRR] Wrapping up FGE's insulated box car schemes? --part1_17d.12ab6da2.2b18b996_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/28/02 1:09:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > I posted my reply last Saturday but I am reposting it since I am not sure if > it made it to the list. On Saturday at the Hamburg NY train show I > purchased a Bob's photo > of one such Pennsy car. RBNX 81176 with a new date of 4-55. The car > includes > the following. "When Empty Return to PRR Railroad Camp Hill Pa." The > photograph is a going away shot of L1 110 in what I think is Enola Yard. So > the cars were available at the tail end of the steam era. What industry in > Camp Hill would use these cars? I am going to look into modeling this car > at some point. > > In addition I have a photo of RBNX 80998 which is in the same number > series, > and shows a built date of 3-53. > > The Jan 1955 Westerfield Equipment Register lists 994 cars in the 80,000 - > 81,999 at that point. The listing also hasa star next to it denoting an > addition to the register. > > Brian carlson > > Brian, Interesting how this is shaking out. I'm assuming that both the cars you're talking about now are 40' plug door insulated box cars, yellow with red ends, and have the two black stripes with "Fruit Growers Express" between them on the left and "Insulated" on the right. Even though we have a Marvin Cohen shot (number not legible as reproduced in Pennsy Steam Years V1) at Altoona dated October 1952 (and Marvin took a large number of pix with comparable dates on the Middle Division that October), I had trouble verifying the car with an ORER. Like your 1955 edition, the January 1953 ORER (reprinted by NMRA) shows an RBNX series 80000 to 80999, but with no car total, as if the installation of cars was contemplated but had not begun. However, we know some of these listings could lag reality at times. Tentatively, I've concluded that this earlier two-striper scheme started with RBNX cars no later than Oct 1952, and continued to 1969 or later as the standard scheme for 40' cars, including cars with FGE-owner reporting marks (definitely including PRR, as such cars survived into Penn Central days). It's clear that some of these 40 footers were built by ACF instead of FGE. For those that care, I'm coding this scheme as IFGE52 in my records, meaning Insulated Box, Fruit Growers Express, appearing 1952. IFGE52 was also the scheme used on the earliest 50-footers that FGE was building for its members. Earliest appearance of the For Greatest Efficiency scheme was 1964, so I'm coding this IFGE64. The two stripes disappeared in 1972, which created an insulated boxcar with lettering almost exactly the same lettering style and layout FGE mechanical reefers carried since 1965. On RB/RBL's, I call this IFGE72, and there are many, many published photos of these cars. By 1974, FGE insulated boxcars were receiving a much oranger paint new or as shopped. Tentatively, I've tagged this IFGE74o to remind me to look for the orange paint. As we all know, yellow and orange are hard colors for printers to render accurately, but there seems to be no doubt that yellow changed to orange about this time. Now is everyone totally confused? Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Building a new Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_17d.12ab6da2.2b18b996_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/28/02 1:09:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


I posted my reply last Saturday but I am reposting it since I am not sure if
it made it to the list.  On Saturday at the Hamburg NY train show I
purchased a Bob's photo
of one such Pennsy car. RBNX 81176 with a new date of 4-55. The car includes
the following. "When Empty Return to PRR Railroad Camp Hill Pa." The
photograph is a going away shot of L1 110 in what I think is Enola Yard. So
the cars were available at the tail end of the steam era. What industry in
Camp Hill would use these cars?  I am going to look into modeling this car
at some point.

In addition I have a photo of RBNX 80998 which is in the same number series,
and shows a built date of 3-53.

The Jan 1955 Westerfield Equipment Register lists 994 cars in the 80,000 -
81,999 at that point. The listing also hasa star next to it denoting an
addition to the register.

Brian carlson



Brian,

Interesting how this is shaking out.  I'm assuming that both the cars you're talking about now are 40' plug door insulated box cars, yellow with red ends, and have the two black stripes with "Fruit Growers Express" between them on the left and "Insulated" on the right.  Even though we have a Marvin Cohen shot (number not legible as reproduced in Pennsy Steam Years V1) at Altoona dated October 1952 (and Marvin took a large number of pix with comparable dates on the Middle Division that October), I had trouble verifying the car with an ORER.

Like your 1955 edition, the January 1953 ORER (reprinted by NMRA) shows an RBNX series 80000 to 80999, but with no car total, as if the installation of cars was contemplated but had not begun.  However, we know some of these listings could lag reality at times.

Tentatively, I've concluded that this earlier two-striper scheme started with RBNX cars no later than Oct 1952, and continued to 1969 or later as the standard scheme for 40' cars, including cars with FGE-owner reporting marks (definitely including PRR, as such cars survived into Penn Central days).  It's clear that some of these 40 footers were built by ACF instead of FGE.

For those that care, I'm coding this scheme as IFGE52 in my records, meaning Insulated Box, Fruit Growers Express, appearing 1952.

IFGE52 was also the scheme used on the earliest 50-footers that FGE was building for its members. 

Earliest appearance of the For Greatest Efficiency scheme was 1964, so I'm coding this IFGE64.

The two stripes disappeared in 1972, which created an insulated boxcar with lettering almost exactly the same lettering style and layout FGE mechanical reefers carried since 1965.  On RB/RBL's, I call this IFGE72, and there are many, many published photos of these cars.

By 1974, FGE insulated boxcars were receiving a much oranger paint new or as shopped.  Tentatively, I've tagged this IFGE74o to remind me to look for the orange paint.  As we all know, yellow and orange are hard colors for printers to render accurately, but there seems to be no doubt that yellow changed to orange about this time.

Now is everyone totally confused?


                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Building a new Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Buckeye Div. 1966-1968)
                             And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_17d.12ab6da2.2b18b996_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: [PRR] Re: Holly Open House dates Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 09:20:30 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C29788.8FE08E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Floyd: We are open this weekend, Friday Saturday and Sunday Noon = to 5 PM. December 1 & 2 and December 8 & 9,, Y'all come !!! I will be there this Saturday All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Floydefoust@aol.com=20 To: crashtech@chartermi.net=20 Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 7:17 AM Subject: Holly Open House dates Hi Weldon, I haven't seen any flyers on your open house dates this holiday = season. Is the club open on weekends between now and Christmas? What = hours? Thanks, Floyd ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C29788.8FE08E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Floyd:   = We are open=20 this weekend, Friday Saturday and Sunday  Noon to 5 = PM.
 
December 1 & 2 and = December 8=20 & 9,, Y'all come !!!
 
I will be there this=20 Saturday
 
All the best to you and = yours     Weldon
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Floydefoust@aol.com
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 = 7:17=20 AM
Subject: Holly Open House = dates

Hi=20 Weldon,

I haven't seen any flyers on your open house dates this = holiday=20 season.  Is the club open on weekends between now and=20 Christmas?   What hours?

Thanks,
Floyd=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C29788.8FE08E40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 08:11:25 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] "Chronology of the PRR" Two or three years ago I thought I saw a collection of files by Chris Baer under the general title "Chronology of the PRR" on the PRRT&HS web site (or was it the Phila. Chapter web site?). Either way, I went looking today and couldn't find it. Is it somewhere else, or has it been removed, or... ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 11:17:13 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] "Chronology of the PRR" On Fri, 29 Nov 2002, robert netzlof wrote: > Two or three years ago I thought I saw a collection of files by Chris > Baer under the general title "Chronology of the PRR" on the PRRT&HS > web site (or was it the Phila. Chapter web site?). > > Either way, I went looking today and couldn't find it. Is it > somewhere else, or has it been removed, or... http://www.prrths.com/Phila_hagley_intro.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 10:32:05 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] "Chronology of the PRR" From: William Ayers Bob, It is the Philly Chapter. The URL is: http://www.prrths.com/Phila_hagley_intro.htm -- Bill Ayers Remembering the PRR in Crestline http://crestline.pennsyrr.com > From: robert netzlof > Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 08:11:25 -0800 (PST) > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] "Chronology of the PRR" > > Two or three years ago I thought I saw a collection of files by Chris > Baer under the general title "Chronology of the PRR" on the PRRT&HS > web site (or was it the Phila. Chapter web site?). > > Either way, I went looking today and couldn't find it. Is it > somewhere else, or has it been removed, or... > > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. > http://mailplus.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 15:35:19 -0500 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr Subject: RE: [PRR] 46th St and Race St Engine Houses Down by 46th street was the engine terminal, freight transfer, and freight yard. 52nd was for coaches. The yard spans a good number of block before 46th and after 52nd. 46th street yard then continues directly into Zoo interlock then 30th street. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of John Cooper Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 1:59 PM To: zootowerprr@webtv.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] 46th St and Race St Engine Houses > The 46th street Engine House was "in" the 52nd Street Yard. 48th >and Parkside Ave was the location of the roundhouse. Looking at some maps and satelite imagery, it looks like it would have been in the "northeast" corner of the yard, out where some running tracks ran along the north perimeter of the yard. Is this correct? The satelite imagery from 1992 shows something round in that area. Would that have been the turntable? > "Race St." is the engine pit at 30th Street Station next to the >Penn Coach Yard. Oh, I know where that is. Thanks. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:00:00 -0500 From: Bill Subject: Re: [PRR] 46th St and Race St Engine Houses Gregory Vlassopoulos Jr wrote: > > Down by 46th street was the engine terminal, freight transfer, and freight > yard. 52nd was for coaches. The yard spans a good number of block before > 46th and after 52nd. 46th street yard then continues directly into Zoo > interlock then 30th street. The coach yard extended to at least the 57th/59th Street bridge (which currently divides the abandoned Acme warehouse from Pierce-Phelps at the railroad level). The Overbrook High baseball field was on the Pierce-Phelps side and was also a staging area for the PRSL coaches. One of the PHL Chapter PRRT&HS members told me of the experience of playing on '37 'Brook baseball team and seeing one of the streamlined K4's being out in the yard area. He lost his concentration so much/often from staring at the engine that the coach took him out of the game! Bill Morlitz > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of John > Cooper > Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2002 1:59 PM > To: zootowerprr@webtv.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] 46th St and Race St Engine Houses > > > The 46th street Engine House was "in" the 52nd Street Yard. 48th > >and Parkside Ave was the location of the roundhouse. > > Looking at some maps and satelite imagery, it looks like it would have been > in the "northeast" corner of the yard, out where some running tracks ran > along the north perimeter of the yard. Is this correct? The satelite > imagery from 1992 shows something round in that area. Would that have been > the turntable? > > > "Race St." is the engine pit at 30th Street Station next to the > >Penn Coach Yard. > > Oh, I know where that is. Thanks. > > John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: [PRR] Re: Holly Open House dates Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 21:36:48 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C297EF.6BF15070 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gee Floyd: BIG MISTAKE ON THE OPEN HOUSE DATES. I was looking at = 2001. This weekend Friday, Saturday and Sunday. BUT, we will be open the = next two weekends, December 7&8 and December 14 and 15. Sorry for the confusion; All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Floydefoust@aol.com=20 To: crashtech@chartermi.net=20 Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 7:17 AM Subject: Holly Open House dates Hi Weldon, I haven't seen any flyers on your open house dates this holiday = season. Is the club open on weekends between now and Christmas? What = hours? Thanks, Floyd ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C297EF.6BF15070 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gee Floyd:   = BIG =20 MISTAKE ON THE OPEN HOUSE DATES.   I was looking at = 2001.
 
This weekend Friday, = Saturday and=20 Sunday.  BUT,  we will be open the next two weekends, December = 7&8=20 and December 14 and 15.
 
Sorry for the = confusion;
 
All the best to you and = yours     Weldon
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Floydefoust@aol.com
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 = 7:17=20 AM
Subject: Holly Open House = dates

Hi=20 Weldon,

I haven't seen any flyers on your open house dates this = holiday=20 season.  Is the club open on weekends between now and=20 Christmas?   What hours?

Thanks,
Floyd=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C297EF.6BF15070-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 16:38:45 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] H21 with differernt trucks Hi All, Here is a photo that I just bought of an H21 with very different trucks. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/H21_Neat_Trucks.jpg Enjoy, Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 18:01:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] H21 with differernt trucks Bill, Those trucks were an experimental design with inside roller bearings. Timkin was invloved with these. I believe a 100 car train was equiped for a test. Not sure why the idea didn't fly. We all know what roller bearings can do...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 18:21:47 -0500 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] FD-2 drawings Hi All, Does anyone have drawings, preferably PPR, of the FD-2? General arrangements would be great. If not, did Mainline Modeler or similar do a feature article on it? As always, I will buy or trade for whatever you have. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 19:08:15 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: Re: [PRR] H21 with differernt trucks --------------Boundary-00=_R1ZEQL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, Just saw your new picture. Do you have any idea why there are wha= t appear to be two holes in each wheel? Heat dissipation=0D maybe? I have never seen trucks like these. There is a repack date o= f (?) 1930 on it. Could these have been experimental? Jim=0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Bill Lane=0D Date: Saturday, November 30, 2002 16:43:39=0D To: PRR Modeling; PRR Talk; PRR Fax=0D Subject: [PRR] H21 with differernt trucks=0D =0D Hi All,=0D =0D Here is a photo that I just bought of an H21 with very different trucks.=0D http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/H21_Neat_Trucks.jpg=0D =0D Enjoy,=0D =0D Bill=0D =0D =0D -----------------------------------------------------------------------=0D For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=0D =0D =2E=20 --------------Boundary-00=_R1ZEQL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill,  Just saw your new picture.  Do you have any idea wh= y there are what appear to be two holes in each  whee= l?  Heat dissipation
 maybe?    I have never = seen trucks like these.  There is a repack date of (?) 1930 on it.&n= bsp; Could these have been experimental?  Jim
-------Original Message-------
 
From: Bill Lane
Date: Saturday, No= vember 30, 2002 16:43:39
Subject: [PRR] H21= with differernt trucks
 
Hi All,

Here is a photo that I just bought of an = H21 with very different trucks.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/H= 21_Neat_Trucks.jpg

Enjoy,

Bill


-------------= ----------------------------------------------------------
For assista= nce with this list, please visit http:/= /lists.dsop.com.

.
--------------Boundary-00=_R1ZEQL80000000000000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 18:01:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] H21 with differernt trucks Bill, Those trucks were an experimental design with inside roller bearings. Timkin was invloved with these. I believe a 100 car train was equiped for a test. Not sure why the idea didn't fly. We all know what roller bearings can do...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 18:21:47 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] FD-2 drawings Hi All, Does anyone have drawings, preferably PPR, of the FD-2? General arrangements would be great. If not, did Mainline Modeler or similar do a feature article on it? As always, I will buy or trade for whatever you have. Thanks Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 16:38:45 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] H21 with differernt trucks Hi All, Here is a photo that I just bought of an H21 with very different trucks. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/H21_Neat_Trucks.jpg Enjoy, Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:37:54 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] FD-2 drawings Hello All, I`ve heard that the Oct, 1964 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman has drawings. Ken. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Lane" To: "PRR Talk" ; "PRR Modeling" ; "PRR Fax" Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 6:21 PM Subject: [PRR] FD-2 drawings > Hi All, > > Does anyone have drawings, preferably PPR, of the FD-2? General arrangements > would be great. If not, did Mainline Modeler or similar do a feature article > on it? As always, I will buy or trade for whatever you have. > > Thanks > Bill > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] FD-2 drawings Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:37:54 -0500 Hello All, I`ve heard that the Oct, 1964 issue of Railroad Model Craftsman has drawings. Ken. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Lane" To: "PRR Talk" ; "PRR Modeling" ; "PRR Fax" Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 6:21 PM Subject: [PRR] FD-2 drawings > Hi All, > > Does anyone have drawings, preferably PPR, of the FD-2? General arrangements > would be great. If not, did Mainline Modeler or similar do a feature article > on it? As always, I will buy or trade for whatever you have. > > Thanks > Bill > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] H21 with differernt trucks Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 19:47:03 -0700 Gary, I think that the problem with these was not the roller bearings, but the placement of them inside the wheelface. Maintenance would have been a real problem in this extremely dirty application. Also I wonder if the shorter axle and the attendant loading was a problem. And there is the reality that they may have been too "different". As you have probably noticed, inside bearings never did take off for freight usage. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Sat, 30 Nov 2002 18:01:03 -0500 (EST) mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) wrote: > Bill, > > Those trucks were an experimental design with inside > roller > bearings. Timkin was invloved with these. I believe a > 100 car train was > equiped for a test. Not sure why the idea didn't fly. We > all know what > roller bearings can do...Gary > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:06:42 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] H21 with differernt trucks --- billd@gci-net.com wrote: > I think that the problem with these was not the roller > bearings, but the placement of them inside the wheelface. > Maintenance would have been a real problem in this > extremely dirty application. Also I wonder if the shorter > axle and the attendant loading was a problem. And there is > the reality that they may have been too "different". As you > have probably noticed, inside bearings never did take off > for freight usage. Perhaps Timken designed them that way to emphasize the low maintenance aspect of roller bearings? There is a photo in a recent book on ACF cars showing a two-bay hopper with similar trucks. It was one of two demonstrators built for Timken some time after the H21's (butI don't remember the date). ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:14:25 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] H21 with differernt trucks --- sjlash wrote: > There is a repack date of (?) 1930 on it. I think that date is the date the car was last weighed to determine light weight. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Hi All,
I am building a model railroad in N = scale inspired=20 by the Middle Division of the Pennsylvania Railroad circa 1954 (but more 1951-1955). Trains have been running on = it for 13=20 years but it is no way finished!
 
I run a block train of PFE/FGE cars but = I=20 have run a cut of ATSF reefers from the start (as I liked the look = of them=20 and they were readily available). The ATSF=20 cars (several of which I have owned for 30 years!), are those made by=20 Atlas/Rivarossi of the "R-40-23" type, numbered ATSF 8155 and = lettered=20 "Route of El Capitan" on both sides - a nice model but completely = wrong. As=20 cash permits, I will be replacing these with Intermountain SFRD = cars. I=20 have received a lot of info on the cars from the santafemodellers group, = but the=20 amount of SFRD reefer working onto/across PRR is still a bit of a = mystery to=20 me.
 
So, I have a few unanswered=20 questions on reefer working circa 1954 which I hope a group = member may=20 be able to answer.
 
From this group's archive = correspondence, I believe=20 that PFE & FGE cars worked together as block trains from western = gateway to=20 Enola, and that SFRD cars did not work in the same block. What is a good = ratio=20 for PFE to FGE cars in a block train?
 
The route of preference to the east = coast for SFRD=20 block trains seems to have been via the Erie, but some SFRD cars did serve the produce market at Pittsburgh. Did=20 SFRD cars work to, say, Philadelphia or Baltimore over the Middle=20 Division?
 
Did non-PFE/FGE cars work as = part of=20 a block of mixed reefers, or as part of a merchandise train from = the west=20 coast? Sorry if this sounds a bit naive.
 
Any suggestions for other marks of = reefer that=20 would have worked with the SFRD cars regularly Pittsburgh-Enola circa=20 1954?
 
FGE Paint Scheme - I=20 have some Red Caboose FGE reefers which have a built date of 1938. I = have seen=20 photos of FGE cars from the late 1950's with black bands above and below = the=20 "F.G.E.-REFRIGERATOR" lettering. The 1938 scheme model cars do not have = the=20 bands - Could someone tell me if this=20 1938 paint scheme is good for 1954?
 
I hope = that you will=20 not think I am "nit-picking". Even though my layout, although based = round=20 Mifflin, is not going to be an accurate model of that or the surrounding = locations, I would like to get the trains as accurate as I can -=20 particularly as there is so much more choice in N-scale these=20 days.
 
Many thanks in anticipation of your=20 help,
Martin Skrzetuszewski
London,=20 England
------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C29073.BDB21A80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: FredAbend@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 05:54:41 EST Subject: Re: Linquistics... Re: [PRR] Shifters, Switchers and such And here in Columbia "shifter" took on still another meaning... When the PRR had extensive yards here and crews had to do shifting they'd need meals they could eat on the fly so to speak. Local eateries came up with ways to quickly put a sandwich together that a crewman could grab and run. These sandwiches, essentially subs or hoagies, were known as "shifters." Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] B&P Junction for Ken Meyer: Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:14:23 -0500 Hey Ken: I tried to email you - maybe you received it by now? It bounced back right after I sent it - Any way I found another that you might like. A low level shot of two G's going through B&P Junction from 1939. http://www.wsbcos.com/dwk/dwk042.jpg Warning this is a big file (for Ken) 550+k Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com.trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:21:56 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR stations There are a few stations left here in the Virginia part of Delmarva and a few in Maryland. Some photos are available in the PRR-Delmarva section of Yahoo. >From North to south: Lee Burbage owns and has restored an old station in Maryland near Ocean City but I can't remember the place name! 1. Salisbury still exists, used by NS 2. Princess Anne is a ?private dwelling 3. Pocomoke City is restored and used by the city as a meeting room, etc. 4. New Church has been moved away from the railroad and is a private dwelling 5. Hopeton is relocated to Parksley and restored as the Eastern Shore Railway Museum along with a watch shanty, tool house and some non-Prr rolling stock. 6, 7, 8. The freight stations at Onley, Melfa and Cheriton are still in place 9. The Belle Haven Station is moved and partly restored at Exmore 10. The Weirwood station is across the road at Riggins Trailer park 11. Bloxom was moved and is being restored in Cape Charles next to the CC Historical Society Museum, an old DP&L power generation station. 12. The Kiptopeake station was moved across Rte 13 and is next to the last gas station going south And there are several original building still in the RR yards at Cape Charles, in cluding the Edward Richardsons deck house, but no stations. The ? original Little Creek Engine House is still in use. I'm sure I forgot something but it's a start. Jim McDaniel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: Linquistics... Re: [PRR] Shifters, Switchers and such Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:28:24 -0500 Just another note of trivia on shifter, way back when (early 70's) the Donegal School district (next door to Columbia - for those not familiar with Lancaster County) had a sandwich called a "shifter". It was a sub on a hamburger bun. I checked with my kids - they do not recall this delicacy. I always wondered where it came from. Thanks Fred! Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com.trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of FredAbend@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 5:55 AM To: davep@quik.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: Linquistics... Re: [PRR] Shifters, Switchers and such And here in Columbia "shifter" took on still another meaning... When the PRR had extensive yards here and crews had to do shifting they'd need meals they could eat on the fly so to speak. Local eateries came up with ways to quickly put a sandwich together that a crewman could grab and run. These sandwiches, essentially subs or hoagies, were known as "shifters." Fred ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 09:00:30 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 In a message dated 11/20/02 3:14:38 AM Central Standard Time, martinskrzetuszewski@lineone.net writes: << What is a good ratio for PFE to FGE cars in a block train? >> Can't tell you that ratio, but for variety on the PFE, throw in a Western Pacific lettered car (WP logo on one side). Since the Western Fruit Express (Great Northern) and Burlington Refrigerator Express were associated with FGE, throw in a car or two of those (1:1:7 is the total ratio in that pool) as well. I also add a C&NW car or two (the green and yellow ones began to replace gray about your time period, 1954, I believe) and a Milwaukee (URTX) And, though I don't know how much went East of Pittsburgh, the meat packers contributed traffic as well. Swift and Armour had cars. And Kahn, Roth (a mispelling or a different company from Rath?), and Oscar Meyer contracted cars from National Car Company, a full-blown subsidiary of FGE, though, again, an Easterner would have to say how far those brands made it to the East Coast. Westbound trains are listed as carrying empty packing house cars from Enola for connection to Chicago and Northwestern and Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul, and Pacific. Don't know how many of the above are available in N. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] RTR vs Kits Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:26:55 -0600 While your Bachmann Russian detail-wise comes very close to your PFM engine, I suspect in tractive effort the two are no where near comparable. This is because the weight of the brass engine. I think the tractive effort of the Bachmann is under 2 oz., which means it will probably have problems pulling itself up moderate grades. This is one of the inherent problems associated with the P2K, Genesis, and Bachmann steam locomotives. The shear weight of the brass engine contributes to its pulling power. Not so with the new plastic models. While the lack of tractive effort may not be so noticeable in the larger, new plastic steam engines (such as the P2K 2-8-8-2), it is very pronounced in the smaller engines, particularly in the aforementioned 2-10-0 and the 0-6-0 from Life Like. One "fix" to this problem is the traction tire - I believe all the Rivarossi locomotives (including the new 2-6-6-6) have one. Of course, this can lead to a certain "wobbling" when the locomotive moves down the track! -----Original Message----- From: Eric Lauterbach [mailto:ealauterbach@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 8:06 PM To: PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] RTR vs Kits I have seen the RTR Bowser engines and they just don't compare in looks to the new stuff. Many of the newer plastic compares very favorably to brass. The Rivarossi Allegheny has even better detail in many respect than my Akane Allegheny, and my Bachmann Russian comes very close to my PFM Russian. None of the Bowser RTR comes close to any of the Sunset (that crappy K4 excluded), GEM, or PFM Pennsy Stuff. Another thing to consider is that we may be seeing more metal boilers with plastic details. The upcoming Bachmann USRA 2-6-6-2 is rumored to have a metal boiler and I think that there USRA Heavy due out next year does have a metal boiler. My guess is that there are some people who enjoy building a kit, but as far as sales go, the old style metal kits can not compete with the new RTR plastic in todays model train market. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:43:27 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 Martin asks some great questions about reefer traffic on the PRR. >I believe that PFE & FGE cars worked together as block trains from >western gateway to Enola, and that SFRD cars did not work in the same >block. What is a good ratio for PFE to FGE cars in a block train? The >route of preference to the east coast for SFRD block trains seems to have >been via the Erie, but some SFRD cars did serve the produce market at >Pittsburgh. The route of preference for PFE was also Erie, according to Tony Thompson, PFE fact guru. SFRD cars did make appearance in Pittsburgh and at other places on the system. Usually not in solid blocks, but as small numbers of cars with specific produce. I have seen photos of SFRD reefers in Blatimore harbor loading bananas. >Did SFRD cars work to, say, Philadelphia or Baltimore over the Middle >Division? Did non-PFE/FGE cars work as part of a block of mixed >reefers, or as part of a merchandise train from the west coast? As for eastbound reefer traffic, reefers from a variety of areas with a variety of produce for the Pittsburgh, Philly and local markets in betwixt would have been collected at western gateways such as Chicago and St. Louis. These would have reflected a variety of owners, in part depending on the region that the produce came from and that in turn depended on the season. Unlike the left coast, you would not see solid trains of one company hauling one commodity. These would have been collected into expedited blocks and perhaps even whole trains of reefers, however, the PRR had a lot of trouble getting this to work (hence PFE and SFRD's preference for the Erie). During the first half of WWII, you could see reefers and stock cars being expedited by being added to oil trains. >Sorry if this sounds a bit naive. Any suggestions for other marks of >reefer that would have worked with the SFRD cars regularly >Pittsburgh-Enola circa 1954? Don't forget that reefers worked other traffic besides Left coast crops. There was a strong Northbound traffic in Peaches. The "peach train" worked north to Baltimore and then up the Northern Central to Harrisburg and WEST to Pittsburgh. This was described in the Keystone a few issues back (IIRC the T1 issue). Other traffic might include fresh mushrooms (usually in R50Bs on passenger trains) and New Jersey crops (tomatoes etc) for Pittsburgh. >Any suggestions for other marks of reefer that would have worked with the >SFRD cars regularly Pittsburgh-Enola circa 1954? FGE Paint Scheme - I >have some Red Caboose FGE reefers which have a built date of 1938. I'll not comment on Red Caboose's imagination other to say that the only correct FGE reefers produced in HO currently are in resin (I know you are in N - don't know the status there). IM is reportedly releasing a new HO FGE reefer. As for your car fleet of produce reefers...it should be dominated with FGE/WFE/BREX (mostly FGE). A minority of cars should be PFE and an even smaller number SFRD. You can also throw in a few URTX, CNW, GTW (NICE HO resin kit from Nowest) and even some MDT (NYC - boo hiss) reefers. The bottom line though is that produce was not a big item for the PRR to haul, so reefers should be small percentage of the cars on the layout. As some have said, they treated it too much like coal! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:51:23 +0000 You touched on southern trains but what was the car of choice for say the orange and grapefruit traffic out of Florida as well as onions out of Georgia? What about other centers of produce in the south? Thanks, Norm Bell > Martin asks some great questions about reefer traffic on the PRR. > > >I believe that PFE & FGE cars worked together as block trains from > >western gateway to Enola, and that SFRD cars did not work in the same > >block. What is a good ratio for PFE to FGE cars in a block train? The > >route of preference to the east coast for SFRD block trains seems to have > >been via the Erie, but some SFRD cars did serve the produce market at > >Pittsburgh. > > The route of preference for PFE was also Erie, according to Tony Thompson, > PFE fact guru. SFRD cars did make appearance in Pittsburgh and at other > places on the system. Usually not in solid blocks, but as small numbers of > cars with specific produce. I have seen photos of SFRD reefers in > Blatimore harbor loading bananas. > > >Did SFRD cars work to, say, Philadelphia or Baltimore over the Middle > >Division? Did non-PFE/FGE cars work as part of a block of mixed > >reefers, or as part of a merchandise train from the west coast? > > As for eastbound reefer traffic, reefers from a variety of areas with a > variety of produce for the Pittsburgh, Philly and local markets in betwixt > would have been collected at western gateways such as Chicago and St. > Louis. These would have reflected a variety of owners, in part depending > on the region that the produce came from and that in turn depended on the > season. Unlike the left coast, you would not see solid trains of one > company hauling one commodity. These would have been collected into > expedited blocks and perhaps even whole trains of reefers, however, the PRR > had a lot of trouble getting this to work (hence PFE and SFRD's preference > for the Erie). During the first half of WWII, you could see reefers and > stock cars being expedited by being added to oil trains. > > >Sorry if this sounds a bit naive. Any suggestions for other marks of > >reefer that would have worked with the SFRD cars regularly > >Pittsburgh-Enola circa 1954? > > Don't forget that reefers worked other traffic besides Left coast crops. > There was a strong Northbound traffic in Peaches. The "peach train" worked > north to Baltimore and then up the Northern Central to Harrisburg and WEST > to Pittsburgh. This was described in the Keystone a few issues back (IIRC > the T1 issue). Other traffic might include fresh mushrooms (usually in > R50Bs on passenger trains) and New Jersey crops (tomatoes etc) for > Pittsburgh. > > >Any suggestions for other marks of reefer that would have worked with the > >SFRD cars regularly Pittsburgh-Enola circa 1954? FGE Paint Scheme - I > >have some Red Caboose FGE reefers which have a built date of 1938. > > I'll not comment on Red Caboose's imagination other to say that the only > correct FGE reefers produced in HO currently are in resin (I know you are > in N - don't know the status there). IM is reportedly releasing a new HO > FGE reefer. As for your car fleet of produce reefers...it should be > dominated with FGE/WFE/BREX (mostly FGE). A minority of cars should be PFE > and an even smaller number SFRD. You can also throw in a few URTX, CNW, > GTW (NICE HO resin kit from Nowest) and even some MDT (NYC - boo hiss) > reefers. The bottom line though is that produce was not a big item for the > PRR to haul, so reefers should be small percentage of the cars on the > layout. As some have said, they treated it too much like coal! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 10:12:57 -0500 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] RTR vs Kits/// BOWSER 0-6-0 Folks, Speaking of Bowser, does anyone know the status of the Pennsy B6 model from them? Is it still on, for that matter? I'm wondering as well if this engine would a kit or RTR, metal or plastic, etc. Anyone have any info? Thanks, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 10:19:21 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] RTR vs Kits/// BOWSER 0-6-0 From: Jerry Britton On 11/20/02 10:12 AM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: > Speaking of Bowser, does anyone know the status of the Pennsy B6 model from > them? Is it still on, for that matter? > I'm wondering as well if this engine would a kit or RTR, metal or plastic, > etc. > Anyone have any info? Definitely "on". Definitely a kit. Lee told me about two months ago the boiler was done and they were working on the masters for all the details. No ETA as of yet, but I'm guessing some time in 2003 and not later. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 10:54:20 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Open Houses This Weekend From: Jerry Britton Once again I would like to draw attention to open houses this weekend... This Friday evening, if you missed them last weekend, both Charlie Carangie and Charlie Grant are open in northern Delaware. Both feature NEC with catenary and extensions up the Port Road. Charlie G has a working hump yard and Charlie C has an excellent Harrisburg station snow scene. On Sunday, turn your attention to Downingtown, Pa. Both Paul Backenstose and Ken McCorry will be open. Paul did a session at a convention a few years back on "Adding PRR Details to your Layout". Model Railroader once called Ken McCorry's the "World's Largest Home Layout"...and that was before he added an addition! This is the only time these two layouts will be open this year. For more information, including addresses suitable for MapBlast, see http://kc.pennsyrr.com/timetable.ws4d Enjoy! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:03:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] 6th Annual Modeling Needs Survey! -- From: Jerry Britton Two more days to get your surveys in! Thanks to all who have responded thus far. We have about a 5% response rate, which is typical of surveys. I'd like to get it up to around 10%, so please take a few minutes and respond if you haven't already. Thanks! On 11/15/02 11:19 AM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > Time for the 6th Annual "Keystone Crossings/PRR-Talk" Modeling Needs Survey! > > I will summarize the results to the list as well as to several dozen model > manufacturers. Every year some of our highest requests show up within the > next 24 months. > > Please participate by listing up to three PRR products that you would like > to see produced in each of the categories listed. Only the first three in > each category will be considered; others will be discarded. > > Please try to be specific with the PRR class. If you are looking for mass > quantities, indicate that as well. Please DO NOT include models of classes > that have already been announced for production. > > Respond by replying to this message, but send it to me only (not to the > list) at "jerry@pennsyrr.com" and send by Friday, November 22, 4:30 p.m. > > When submitting, please APPEND the subject line with your scale. > > Thank you! > > (You can view last year's results at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/Forms/email/*ws4d-db-query-Show.ws4d?*ws4d-db-query-S > how***MJL-BAJ-157160159158163159-1460***-Email_Archive***-***email(directory > )***.ws4d?email/results(R).html , just make sure you remove any line breaks > if you copy/paste it into your browser.) > > Thank you! > > YOUR SCALE: > > STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: > > > > ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: > > > > DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: > > > > FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: > > > > NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: > > > > PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: > > > > STRUCTURES DESIRED: > > > > OTHER DESIRED: > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] 6th Annual Modeling Needs Survey! -- Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:22:26 -0500 Remember Guys, If you want your voice heard this is a great way to do it especially if we do better than the percent reply of a typical survey. Now I better get working on mine. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 11:03 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] 6th Annual Modeling Needs Survey! -- Two more days to get your surveys in! Thanks to all who have responded thus far. We have about a 5% response rate, which is typical of surveys. I'd like to get it up to around 10%, so please take a few minutes and respond if you haven't already. Thanks! On 11/15/02 11:19 AM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > Time for the 6th Annual "Keystone Crossings/PRR-Talk" Modeling Needs Survey! > > I will summarize the results to the list as well as to several dozen model > manufacturers. Every year some of our highest requests show up within the > next 24 months. > > Please participate by listing up to three PRR products that you would like > to see produced in each of the categories listed. Only the first three in > each category will be considered; others will be discarded. > > Please try to be specific with the PRR class. If you are looking for mass > quantities, indicate that as well. Please DO NOT include models of classes > that have already been announced for production. > > Respond by replying to this message, but send it to me only (not to the > list) at "jerry@pennsyrr.com" and send by Friday, November 22, 4:30 p.m. > > When submitting, please APPEND the subject line with your scale. > > Thank you! > > (You can view last year's results at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/Forms/email/*ws4d-db-query-Show.ws4d?*ws4d-db-query-S > how***MJL-BAJ-157160159158163159-1460***-Email_Archive***-***email(directory > )***.ws4d?email/results(R).html , just make sure you remove any line breaks > if you copy/paste it into your browser.) > > Thank you! > > YOUR SCALE: > > STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: > > > > ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: > > > > DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: > > > > FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: > > > > NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: > > > > PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: > > > > STRUCTURES DESIRED: > > > > OTHER DESIRED: > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:00:53 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefer traffic in 1954 Greetings to Martin and the List: Swift Co. had a packing house in Harrisburg, north of the PRR passenger station and not far from where Harris Tower still stands. Photos from the 50s do show red Swift reefers in the area. Dan Cupper > Martin Skrzetuszewski wrote: > > Hi All, > I am building a model railroad in N scale inspired by the Middle > Division of the Pennsylvania Railroad circa 1954 (but more 1951-1955). > Trains have been running on it for 13 years but it is no way finished! > > I run a block train of PFE/FGE cars but I have run a cut of ATSF > reefers from the start (as I liked the look of them and they were > readily available). The ATSF cars (several of which I have owned for > 30 years!), are those made by Atlas/Rivarossi of the "R-40-23" > type, numbered ATSF 8155 and lettered "Route of El Capitan" on both > sides - a nice model but completely wrong. As cash permits, I will be > replacing these with Intermountain SFRD cars. I have received a lot of > info on the cars from the santafemodellers group, but the amount of > SFRD reefer working onto/across PRR is still a bit of a mystery to me. > > So, I have a few unanswered questions on reefer working circa 1954 > which I hope a group member may be able to answer. > > From this group's archive correspondence, I believe that PFE & FGE > cars worked together as block trains from western gateway to Enola, > and that SFRD cars did not work in the same block. What is a good > ratio for PFE to FGE cars in a block train? > > The route of preference to the east coast for SFRD block trains seems > to have been via the Erie, but some SFRD cars did serve the produce > market at Pittsburgh. Did SFRD cars work to, say, Philadelphia or > Baltimore over the Middle Division? > > Did non-PFE/FGE cars work as part of a block of mixed reefers, or as > part of a merchandise train from the west coast? Sorry if this sounds > a bit naive. > > Any suggestions for other marks of reefer that would have worked with > the SFRD cars regularly Pittsburgh-Enola circa 1954? > > FGE Paint Scheme - I have some Red Caboose FGE reefers which have a > built date of 1938. I have seen photos of FGE cars from the late > 1950's with black bands above and below the "F.G.E.-REFRIGERATOR" > lettering. The 1938 scheme model cars do not have the bands - Could > someone tell me if this 1938 paint scheme is good for 1954? > > I hope that you will not think I am "nit-picking". Even though my > layout, although based round Mifflin, is not going to be an accurate > model of that or the surrounding locations, I would like to get the > trains as accurate as I can - particularly as there is so much more > choice in N-scale these days. > > Many thanks in anticipation of your help, > Martin Skrzetuszewski > London, England ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:00:08 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] GP-35 question On Wed, 20 Nov 2002, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > From what I remember, the first issue of the kato GP-35 matched the first > series of PRR GP-35's almost exactly. These are what folks are now calling > the "Phase 1a", right? Yeah, "them's the ones" > the first number series (Phase 1a's) for PRR was 2252-2308 or so. The two > kato GP-35's that came out in that original series were numbered correctly, > but had buff numbers (should have been scotchlite yellow) and not > particularly good keys on them. The DGLE color looked OK to me, but was > objectionable to some. It was less "green" than the SD40, and so not as bad, but it still looked too "green" to me; That's subjective, granted. But the big annoyance (I think; the model isn't handy) is the font used for the numbers on the cab isn't even close. If I have some time I have undecs of all 3 shells somewhere. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] RTR vs Kits Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 12:04:55 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C2908D.0A69F5A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am strictly a kit person and have several Bowser RTR locomotives on my = pike. My favorite part of the hobby is operations and I really don't = like the fussy detail work of building models. Others feel just the = opposite, which is what makes this such a great hobby - something for = everybody. I've noted that the Bowser RTR locos need some tuning up to = get a really smooth running locomotive. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message -----=20 From: PennsyNut=20 To: PRR Talk=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 7:58 PM Subject: [PRR] RTR vs Kits Hi! I'd like to ask: Bowser advertises both kits and RTR versions of = their locos. How many of you purchase the RTR? So, if all the discussions relating to "what sells and what doesn't = sell" are to mean anything, don't we have to take that into = consideration? I want to see a good kit or RTR version of the PRR H6, H6b, H6sb, = etc.; with air tank mounted on the pilot beam and without, etc. In = other words, the hobby needs a good H6. The only ones I've ever known = of are brass, and beyond economic feasibility. And at this point, with = the way the hobby is going, and plastic locos with sound above $200, = well - I guess we have to live with it. So, whether some manufacturer = brings out a H6, a H9, or a L1 really doesn't matter a lot. What does = matter is how well the first one sells. And if the first one sells, = then more will follow. Having said that - we already have "inexpensive" = H9 and L1, but NOT the H6. All IMHO, and may God bless the PRR SPF's that are on this list - and = the Yahoo ones as well. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C2908D.0A69F5A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am strictly a kit person and have several = Bowser RTR=20 locomotives on my pike.  My favorite part of the hobby = is operations=20 and I really don't like the fussy detail work of building models.  = Others=20 feel just the opposite, which is what makes this such a great hobby - = something=20 for everybody.  I've noted that the Bowser RTR locos need some = tuning up to=20 get a really smooth running locomotive.
 
Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR = Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport WWII
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 PennsyNut