Message

140 PS/RE

In HO scale, Code 83 rail would be a ver= y good fit for these rail sections. I believe that is what you = should use for the mainline at the Stratsburg interchange.

For a branchline such as the Schuylkill, I would= assume that the rail would mostly be 100 PS with some 130= PS. Code 70 is a even so slightly larger in overall dimensions= for 100 PS. That is what I use for 100 PS. 130 PS is larger in heig= ht and width still, I think that Code 75 rail could approximate this rail= section.

On my Fort Wayne Division layout, = I use Code 83 for 131/133/140 rail sections on my mainline whil= e Code 70 is used for 100 and 130 rail sections.

I hope that this helps you out!

Te= d Andrews

(a "rail" fan in more ways than one!!)

&n= bsp;

----- Original Message -----

From: RDG212= 4@aol.com

Sent: Sunday, Nove= mber 03, 2002 12:26 PM

To: P= RR-Talk@dsop.com

Subject: [P= RR] Rail Weight

I model= 1950 and am doing the PR's mainline interchange with the Strasburg RR in= Paradise, Pa.. Does anyone know what the Pennsy's mainline rail wa= s at that time. I am assuming 110 lb..

Also,&nb= sp; the PRR Schuylkill Division's interchange with the Reading Co. at Bir= dsboro will be modeled. PRR's rail weight on this branch was <= U> ? lbs. in 1950? Assuming 80 or 90 lb. here as the traf= fic was not that heavy or fast at this point.

Many thanks,

= Evan Leisey

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C28342.C74281E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Focal Orange? YEP! Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 13:03:51 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C28339.74F9D5E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Gary! Thanks for that picture of "Focal Orange". Can you get a picture of = that FCC? That's more important to us modeling prior to 1950. > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000630.jpg >=20 > Now Pete, you asked last week what was under the the Focal Orange. We = looked yesterday. It appears it is the remnants of FCC color. It did not = peel off with the other layers. It is permanantly attached to the metal. = I first thought the color was actually rust. It was not. The color is a = deep rich brown with just a tad or reddish to it. Must be because of the = artificial pigments used in later years which had a darker shade. > Reason being that if the focal orange was almost "pristine", could it = not be so that the FCC is also "pristine". I suppose if not, then a = picture of it would not be feasible. The great thing about that focal = orange is that I can simply "save" it on my hard drive for future = reference. I have some color chips that I did scan and save, but the = FCC I have is not that "pristine", and as you well know, the FCC was not = the same on every car. Especially since you mention "deep rich brown = with just a tad or reddish to it". Thanks again. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRTHS #1204 and SPF ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C28339.74F9D5E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Gary!

Thanks for that picture of = "Focal=20 Orange". Can you get a picture of that FCC? That's more = important to=20 us modeling prior to 1950.

> http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/Im000630.jpg >=20
> Now Pete, you asked last week what was under the the = Focal=20 Orange. We looked yesterday. It appears it is the remnants of FCC color. = It did=20 not peel off with the other layers. It is permanantly attached to the=20 metal. I first thought the color was actually rust. It was not. = The color=20 is a deep rich brown with just a tad or reddish to it. Must be because = of the=20 artificial pigments used in later years which had a darker shade.=20 >

Reason=20 being that if the focal orange was almost "pristine", could it not be so = that=20 the FCC is also "pristine". I suppose if not, then a picture = of it=20 would not be feasible. The great thing about that focal orange is = that I=20 can simply "save" it on my hard drive for future reference. I have = some=20 color chips that I did scan and save, but the FCC I have is not that = "pristine",=20 and as you well know, the FCC was not the same on every car. = Especially=20 since you mention "deep rich brown with just a tad or reddish to=20 it".

Thanks = again.

Morgan = Bilbo
Ferroequinologist
PRRTHS=20 #1204 and SPF

------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C28339.74F9D5E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Rail Weight Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 14:44:22 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C28347.7FB0B900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evan, I believe the most common rail weight on the PRR main line was 140 PS, = or 140 lb. rail, with 152 PS used on curves. The Schuylkill Division may = have been 110 lbs though. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RDG2124@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 12:09 PM Subject: [PRR] Rail Weight I model 1950 and am doing the PR's mainline interchange with the = Strasburg RR in Paradise, Pa.. Does anyone know what the Pennsy's = mainline rail was at that time. I am assuming 110 lb.. Also, the PRR Schuylkill Division's interchange with the Reading = Co. at Birdsboro will be modeled. PRR's rail weight on this branch was = ? lbs. in 1950? Assuming 80 or 90 lb. here as the traffic was not that = heavy or fast at this point. Many thanks, Evan Leisey=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C28347.7FB0B900 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Evan,

I believe the most common rail weight on the PRR = main line was=20 140 PS, or 140 lb. rail, with 152 PS used on curves. The Schuylkill = Division may=20 have been 110 lbs though.

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----

From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com=20

To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com

Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 = 12:09=20 PM

Subject: [PRR] Rail = Weight

I model 1950 and am doing the PR's = mainline=20 interchange with the Strasburg RR in Paradise, Pa.. Does anyone = know=20 what the Pennsy's mainline rail was at that time. I am assuming = 110=20 lb..

Also, the PRR Schuylkill Division's = interchange=20 with the Reading Co. at Birdsboro will be modeled. PRR's rail = weight on=20 this branch was ? lbs. in 1950? Assuming 80 = or 90 lb.=20 here as the traffic was not that heavy or fast at this = point.

Many=20 thanks,

Evan Leisey ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C28347.7FB0B900-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 14:54:36 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Diesel Pictorial Volume 7 and Pennsy Diesels Doug, et al., Received my copy of "Diesels 1924-1968" just before going on vacation three weeks ago. I took it with me and read it during the two weeks I was gone. Overall it appears to be a nice presentation, however, I found a few discrepancies in at least three or four of the roster tallies at the end of the book. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 14:55:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Focal Orange? YEP! Morgan, We will be back on site next week and I will have camera in hand. I will se what I can get on the FCC color. Am I correct in that the shade of FCC changed from redish oxide brown to a more brown color. This was because of the change to articfical pigments then being used. Carl Izzo might step in and confirm this? The particular N5c we are restoring is x-PRR 477974. The only photo evidence we can come up with so far as to what PRR color/lettering this N5c wore was the "as delivered" no Keystone scheme of 1942. The photos we have are dated as late as 1957 still wering the as delivered lettering. We are not sure if this Cabin ever recieved the Shadow or Plain Keystone lettering prior to its getting the Focal Oange in 1965. Now, if that remnant of FCC is actually just that, it may be evidence of one of the later schemes due to its darker color than the 1940's era stuff. We just don't know. We need to come up with a photo of the 477974 after the 1957 era to see if this can back this theory up. The 477974 was assigned up in the north central reigion during the mid late 50's so it may have been skipped a later paint job and went straight to Focal Orange from the original 1942 paint job. Stay tuned again next week to see if I get a good shot of this FCC color...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] Rail Weight Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 22:18:26 +0000 >From what I have seen 152 (or sometimes 155) lb PS was used on all of the PRR's major main lines. There is still some left today on the Amtrak Harrisburg line, notably between OVERBROOK and PAOLI. You can compare it to contempoary 140 lb welded rail on ajdacent tracks. The 152 is nearly an inch taller and uses massive 8 bolt fishplates. The PRR used 130/133 on its secondard main lines (like to Atlantic City) with more typical 6 bolt fishplates. _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 17:54:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Rail Weight In a message dated 11/3/02 4:23:47 PM Central Standard Time, evillmike@hotmail.com writes: << From what I have seen 152 (or sometimes 155) lb PS was used on all of the PRR's major main lines. >> I'm not sure that is even true East of Pittsburgh, but bow to the Lines East guys to confirm or deny. However re Lines West, In my files, I have a post from Richard Wallis of Lines West list. Ft. Wayne and St. Louis lines had some 140 lb. Balance of most other main lines West of Pittsburgh were 130-131 lb. There may have been an isolated stretch of 152 lb rail somewhere West of Pittsburgh but I don't know offhand where. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 20:47:22 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Rail Weight - Answered --part1_178.1123d1c2.2af72baa_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many thanks for the volumes of information on the rail weight question. I did not realize that anything over 140 lb. existed in 1950. Evan Leisey --part1_178.1123d1c2.2af72baa_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Many thanks for the volumes of information on the rail weight question. I did not realize that anything over 140 lb. existed in 1950.

Evan Leisey --part1_178.1123d1c2.2af72baa_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RichofScot@aol.com Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 21:19:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Main line at Spruce Creek. The Sept. 28, 1947 Middle Division ETT has three tracks from Tunnel to Forge. Track 1 Eastward Passenger, track 2 Westward freight, track 3 westward passenger. Also GO No. 1005 dated November 30, 1947 annulled special instruction 1502A as construction work in the westward tunnel between Spruce and Tunnel is completed. Hope this helps some. Rich Orr [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2002 21:57:23 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: RE: [PRR] Rail Weight This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_ev3/QToCjRWAxQ/O6uTnKw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT I went back to an article I had written about rail in the July 1995 issue of MRG. It was from a 13-part series and sez- "In the mid-'50s PRR had three standard section: 1) 155# was used in heavy-tonnage, high-speed trackage east of Altoona, between New York and Washington and between Canton and Mansfield, OH; 2) 140# was used on high-speed tracks that carried moderate tonnage; and 3) 133# was reserved for the light tonnage, mostly west of Columbus and Crestline. By the mid-'60s the general PRR standard was 140# AREA for mainline main-track and 115# for branchline main-track." Al --Boundary_(ID_ev3/QToCjRWAxQ/O6uTnKw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Message

I went back to an article I had written about rail in the July 1995 issue of MRG. It was from a 13-part series and sez-

"In the mid-'50s PRR had three standard section: 1) 155# was used in heavy-tonnage, high-speed trackage east of Altoona, between New York and Washington and between Canton and Mansfield, OH; 2) 140# was used on high-speed tracks that carried moderate tonnage; and 3) 133# was reserved for the light tonnage, mostly west of Columbus and Crestline. By the mid-'60s the general PRR standard was 140# AREA for mainline main-track and 115# for branchline main-track."

--Boundary_(ID_ev3/QToCjRWAxQ/O6uTnKw)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 22:59:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] Rail Weight List....... I have a 1945 Pittsburgh Div. Track Chart that includes all the rail weight of all main tracks between Slope and Penn. Staion ,Pittsburgh. I was suprised to see that most of the rail on the mainline was 131 lb. rail. In some places, 152 pound rail has been installed. Track 3 between Slope and GY has 152lb. Also 3 and 4 at SF interlocking. Between Cresson and Portage, track 3 has 152 lb rail. Seems like PRR must have been replacing a lot of the rail on the mainline at this time. It's full of mis-match rail sizes. Track 1 at the east end of Pitcairn Yard has a small section of 125 lb rail. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton" Subject: RE: [PRR] Focal Orange? YEP! Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 08:45:15 -0000 ~ Am I correct in that the shade of FCC changed from redish oxide ~brown to a more brown color. That's always's been my understanding, but if I'm right then old FCC is *really* bright not just "reddish brown" . My understanding is that the pigment was Fe2O3 or iron sesquioxide(also naturally occurring as red ochre or haematite). I don't know for certain that the PRR would have used manufactured pigments rather than natural, but these were already very common in the early 1900s - the use of the iron sesquioxide name rather than simply haematite perhaps suggests man-made rather than natural pigments. Naturally occurring forms can have significant variations in colour, but the purer manufactured pigment used in artist's colours is a very definite orangey-red. It's sold as Mars Red, available from any good artists supply store. When slightly begrimed it's a very close match to Modelflex Light Tuscan Oxide Red. The effect is very close to what you see in contemporary paintings - that of course might be due to Messrs Teller and company having used Mars Red as the basic colour in their paintings rather than anything significant. Aidrian --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 31/10/2002 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 07:44:11 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] MArs Red YEP! A quick google search turned up the following site which includes a color chip which looks FCC to my eyes: http://www.rfpaints.com/6-ColorCharts/MarsRed.htm Mars Red synthesized iron oxide, calcined The most intensely red of the mars colors. In a high key painting it appears almost brown. Surrounded by low key colors it can be strikingly saturated but never electric. Makes salmon pink tints [editorial comment: when it's mixed with a white pigment]. Similar to the natural ochres: English Red or Light Red. Mars colors are synthetically made iron oxides. They are the counterpart to natural ochres. The practice of manufacturing them goes back to the 17th century. The term "mars" refers to the Roman deity, who was the god of iron as well as war. The advantage of the synthetic pigment is that it is uniformly cleaner, brighter, and denser than the ochres. They have incredible tinting strength and opacity. Jim McDaniel, father of and son-in-law of artists but himself only able to paint houses, here in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 10:29:15 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports From: Jerry Britton BLI's web site shows the J1e Hudson as having shipped. Good news; we'll have some worthwhile opinions soon. On a sour note, I (with the support of others) submitted to BLI that one of the planned GG1's may have never existed. They announced and repeated the believed error in a recent Model Railroader ad. It is for a Tuscan GG1 with Gold Leaf lettering and stripes. To the best of our recollection, this would not have been. Can anyone tell me otherwise? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 17:27:05 -0500 Jerry and List, Regarding the BLI Tuscan Red GG1, you can change your sour note to sweet. There definitely were Tuscan Red GG1's with Gold Leaf Lettering in the five-stripe scheme. I finally remembered where I had seen this and located the color slides. They were among a bunch of duplicate slides I bought many years ago from the late Jim Kelly. Most of the originals had been taken by the late John Prophet. I'll list the slides, using Jim Kelly's catalog numbers, in case others on the list might have them and want to look for themselves: E19 - GG1 4913 at Newark, NJ 3/13/51. Slide noted as "First Runs of the Congressional". This is a close-up view of part of the side of the GG1, obviously freshly painted. Very bright glossy Tuscan Red with brilliantly reflective Gold striping and lettering. The Gold is a true 24- karat metallic gold, very different from the later Buff color. E18 - GG1 4911, same date, place and notation. An angled view of the locomotive - Tuscan Red with brightly reflective Gold Striping, not Buff. E 17 - GG1 4911, same date, place and notation. A going away view as above. E16 - GG1 4908, same date, place and notation. This one is perhaps the most interesting and convincing of the bunch. The front of the GG1 is in sunlight, the side in shadow. The front shows the Tuscan Red color very well, as expected. The side is so dark that you can't tell what color it was. The interesting and convincing thing is that even on the dark side, the Gold striping and lettering gleams like only true Gold Leaf can do. E12 - GG1 4909 at a grade crossing North of Princeton Jct., NJ in 1951 (month and day not given). This is a photo that Jim Kelly took himself. It shows a Tuscan Red GG1 with Gold Leaf striping and lettering. So, with just this small batch of photos, we know that there were at least four different GG1's with Gold Leaf striping and lettering. There may have been more. >From PRR drawings we know that the change from Gold Leaf to Buff striping and lettering occurred on 8-11-52 for diesel-electrics in passenger service and 10-13-52 for the lettering on passenger service steam locomotives and tenders. For most passenger cars the change from Gold Leaf to Imitation Gold Enamel occurred on 10-6-52. For passenger sevice diesel-electrics, 8-11-52 was also the date of change from "Dark Green Locomotive Paint" to "Synthetic Tuscan Red Enamel". The above photographic evidence shows that the change from dark green to Tuscan Red occurred earlier for GG1's than for other equipment, before the change to Buff lettering and striping. It would be nice to confirm this from PRR drawings. However, I don't have the GG1 painting and lettering arrangement drawing for this time period, so I can't check the notes on the drawing for colors and dates of change. If anyone knows the drawing number, I might be able to find it on the PRR microfilm. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 10:29 AM Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports > On a sour note, I (with the support of others) submitted to BLI that one of > the planned GG1's may have never existed. They announced and repeated the > believed error in a recent Model Railroader ad. It is for a Tuscan GG1 with > Gold Leaf lettering and stripes. To the best of our recollection, this would > not have been. Can anyone tell me otherwise? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] Walthers R50B Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2002 18:20:59 -0500 Just received some info on new products from Walthers and their HO R50B is scheduled for January release. Based on photo of model provided, it looks pretty darn good and the trucks are of better detail than Bachmann's. Car will be offered in three paint schemes - prewar, postwar and keystone herald (Walthers nomenclature, not mine) and three different car numbers per paint scheme plus undecorated. I certainly hope they make the trucks available separately. If I recall, someone on this list participated in this project and maybe can supply some info. as to whether Walthers will indeed offer the trucks separately. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 18:52:21 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports From: Jerry Britton On 11/4/02 5:27 PM, "Bob Johnson" wrote: > Regarding the BLI Tuscan Red GG1, you can change your sour note to sweet. > There definitely were Tuscan Red GG1's with Gold Leaf Lettering in the > five-stripe scheme. Kudos! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 18:54:07 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B From: Jerry Britton On 11/4/02 6:20 PM, "parkvarieties" wrote: > Just received some info on new products from Walthers and their HO R50B is > scheduled for January release. Based on photo of model provided, it looks > pretty darn good and the trucks are of better detail > than Bachmann's. Car will be offered in three paint schemes - prewar, > postwar and keystone herald (Walthers nomenclature, not > mine) and three different car numbers per paint scheme plus undecorated. > I certainly hope they make the trucks available separately. If I recall, > someone on this list participated in this project and maybe can supply some > info. as to whether Walthers will indeed offer the trucks separately. Great news for HO scalers, for sure! I believe the credit goes to Greg Martin, who's on a roll following up from his work on the Athearn Genesis F7's. So, Greg, what's your next project? ;) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 19:59:54 -0500 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B In a message dated 11/4/2002 6:54:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > Great news for HO scalers, for sure! I believe the credit goes to Greg > Martin, who's on a roll following up from his work on the > Athearn Genesis > F7's. So, Greg, what's your next project? ;) Jerry and all... The thanks goes out to all on the list for their appreciation in the PENNSY! To all thoose guys, especially Bruce Smith and andy miller for pushing me to getting it started. BUT... It would never have happened at all if it was not for BOB JOHNSON and his ability to supply all the technical data via the PRRT&HS. Bob you are the Man of the hour, who behind the scene did all the hard work to bring this project into a REALITY! Thanks Bob! Greg Martin NEXT UP A B60b and a completetion of the G38 and G38 project and on to the N8 and the H30. Who know from there. These are symbols of what the Pennsy was and still remains in all of us! Cross your finger for a J1-J1a! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 20:03:49 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports Jerry/list... I saw one of these today (but not running). The detailing is BETTER than the pre-production model and it is noticably heavier... I eagerly await a report of it's operations... Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2002 20:52:36 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Thanks To All I would like to thank and appreciate everyone who responded to my request. It shows that are a lot of people who are willing to help if asked. I have added maps to the Buckeye Region, Lake Region and Southwestern Region. Will be finishing the rest of the regions very soon. Randy http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Volkmer" Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 09:10:36 -0500 You can (also) find pictures of red GG-1's in my best selling novel - Pennsy Electric Years - Morning Sun Books. WDV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Bob Johnson Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 5:27 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports Jerry and List, Regarding the BLI Tuscan Red GG1, you can change your sour note to sweet. There definitely were Tuscan Red GG1's with Gold Leaf Lettering in the five-stripe scheme. I finally remembered where I had seen this and located the color slides. They were among a bunch of duplicate slides I bought many years ago from the late Jim Kelly. Most of the originals had been taken by the late John Prophet. I'll list the slides, using Jim Kelly's catalog numbers, in case others on the list might have them and want to look for themselves: E19 - GG1 4913 at Newark, NJ 3/13/51. Slide noted as "First Runs of the Congressional". This is a close-up view of part of the side of the GG1, obviously freshly painted. Very bright glossy Tuscan Red with brilliantly reflective Gold striping and lettering. The Gold is a true 24- karat metallic gold, very different from the later Buff color. E18 - GG1 4911, same date, place and notation. An angled view of the locomotive - Tuscan Red with brightly reflective Gold Striping, not Buff. E 17 - GG1 4911, same date, place and notation. A going away view as above. E16 - GG1 4908, same date, place and notation. This one is perhaps the most interesting and convincing of the bunch. The front of the GG1 is in sunlight, the side in shadow. The front shows the Tuscan Red color very well, as expected. The side is so dark that you can't tell what color it was. The interesting and convincing thing is that even on the dark side, the Gold striping and lettering gleams like only true Gold Leaf can do. E12 - GG1 4909 at a grade crossing North of Princeton Jct., NJ in 1951 (month and day not given). This is a photo that Jim Kelly took himself. It shows a Tuscan Red GG1 with Gold Leaf striping and lettering. So, with just this small batch of photos, we know that there were at least four different GG1's with Gold Leaf striping and lettering. There may have been more. >From PRR drawings we know that the change from Gold Leaf to Buff striping and lettering occurred on 8-11-52 for diesel-electrics in passenger service and 10-13-52 for the lettering on passenger service steam locomotives and tenders. For most passenger cars the change from Gold Leaf to Imitation Gold Enamel occurred on 10-6-52. For passenger sevice diesel-electrics, 8-11-52 was also the date of change from "Dark Green Locomotive Paint" to "Synthetic Tuscan Red Enamel". The above photographic evidence shows that the change from dark green to Tuscan Red occurred earlier for GG1's than for other equipment, before the change to Buff lettering and striping. It would be nice to confirm this from PRR drawings. However, I don't have the GG1 painting and lettering arrangement drawing for this time period, so I can't check the notes on the drawing for colors and dates of change. If anyone knows the drawing number, I might be able to find it on the PRR microfilm. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 10:29 AM Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports > On a sour note, I (with the support of others) submitted to BLI that one of > the planned GG1's may have never existed. They announced and repeated the > believed error in a recent Model Railroader ad. It is for a Tuscan GG1 with > Gold Leaf lettering and stripes. To the best of our recollection, this would > not have been. Can anyone tell me otherwise? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 08:40:35 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports >You can (also) find pictures of red GG-1's in my best selling novel - >Pennsy Electric Years - Morning Sun Books. > >WDV Bill, Indeed, your photos were very helpful with the Tuscan/dulux question! To clarify the issue, most secondary sources claim that 4908-4913 were painted Tuscan in 1952. This would be coincident with the introduction of dulux lettering and would have indicated that the Tuscan GG1s never had gold leaf lettering. Thus, the concern was that BLI was advertising for a paint scheme that never occurred (the mix of gold and tuscan). The existence of 1951 photographs provides evidence that these locos had gold lettering & stripes. I will say that I have been fooled many times by color photos in which I thought the lettering was gold and it was dulux, or vice versa, but if the dates on Bob's photos are solid, it seems like good evidence to me. So BLI's Tuscan/Gold scheme may be OK, but it is only appropriate for a year or so (1951 - early 1952) Obviously, the most appropriate reference would be a paint diagram that showed Tuscan with gold leaf, or your memory, if you remember such a phenomenon ! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 08:48:15 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B >Just received some info on new products from Walthers and their HO R50B is >scheduled for January release. Based on photo of model provided, it looks >pretty darn good and the trucks are of better detail >than Bachmann's. Car will be offered in three paint schemes - prewar, >postwar and keystone herald (Walthers nomenclature, not >mine) and three different car numbers per paint scheme plus undecorated. >I certainly hope they make the trucks available separately. If I recall, >someone on this list participated in this project and maybe can supply some >info. as to whether Walthers will indeed offer the trucks separately. > >Frank Brua Thanks for the "heads up" Frank! These are now listed on the Walther's site for "advance reservation" http://www.walthers.com/ (search for "R50") for $24.98 each, or 2 packs for $49.98. I couldn't find any photos online yet. I guess I need to wait and see what the "prewar" paint scheme looks like...I know I end up repainted the Botchman "prewar" cars to match 1944 practices. Hopefully, Walthers took our advice, has followed their own trend and provided a variety of grab iron options to allow various "versions" of the R50b to be modeled...In the end, I'm sure that I will have to order a bunch of these ! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 10:11:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] GG1 Gold/Buff Lettering and Stripes Hey Bruce......... I have a PRR Paint diagram for GG1s from 1952. These notes are on the diagram and read as followed: "gold leaf replaced by buff enamel. Three coats of dark green specified. Reference numbers for buff and dark green enamels shown. "Except 4908-4913 incl" Added to title. 10-6-52 (EL-27-52)" Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 10:36:56 -0500 Bruce et al, Have had a number of requests to post the Walthers R50B picture. You can view it at: www.provide.net/~parkvarieties/wkwr50b.jpg I am going to pursue Walthers about making the trucks available separately. Will let you guys know if they respond. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:09 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B >>Just received some info on new products from Walthers and their HO R50B is >>scheduled for January release. Based on photo of model provided, it looks >>pretty darn good and the trucks are of better detail >>than Bachmann's. Car will be offered in three paint schemes - prewar, >>postwar and keystone herald (Walthers nomenclature, not >>mine) and three different car numbers per paint scheme plus undecorated. >>I certainly hope they make the trucks available separately. If I recall, >>someone on this list participated in this project and maybe can supply some >>info. as to whether Walthers will indeed offer the trucks separately. >> >>Frank Brua > >Thanks for the "heads up" Frank! These are now listed on the Walther's >site for "advance reservation" http://www.walthers.com/ (search for "R50") >for $24.98 each, or 2 packs for $49.98. I couldn't find any photos online >yet. I guess I need to wait and see what the "prewar" paint scheme looks >like...I know I end up repainted the Botchman "prewar" cars to match 1944 >practices. Hopefully, Walthers took our advice, has followed their own >trend and provided a variety of grab iron options to allow various >"versions" of the R50b to be modeled...In the end, I'm sure that I will >have to order a bunch of these ! > >Happy Rails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 10:39:20 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports In a message dated 11/5/02 8:43:31 AM Central Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << So BLI's Tuscan/Gold scheme may be OK, but it is only appropriate for a year or so (1951 - early 1952) >> Bruce, you are giving the Pennsy a lot of credit for implementing paint schemes fast. I suspect you could cheat a little on that end date :-). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 Gold/Buff Lettering and Stripes Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 10:52:23 -0500 Dave, Thanks for the information from your drawing. What is the drawing number in the title block? And what tracing number does it supersede? There should be a note close to the title block that tells this and gives a reason why the old tracing was made obsolete. Other useful information would be the date of the drawing from the title block and the date the drawing was issued. A listing of the all the notes on the drawing and their dates would be very valuable. In particular is there a note that says something like "Except 4908-4913 incl" added? If so, that note and its date would be very significant. Is there anything that says something like "See tracing NNNNNN for 4908-4913 incl"? That tracing is the one we need to find. Thanks for any further help you can give. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Bruce F. Smith" ; ; Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 10:11 AM Subject: [PRR] GG1 Gold/Buff Lettering and Stripes > Hey Bruce......... > > I have a PRR Paint diagram for GG1s from 1952. These notes are on > the diagram and read as followed: > > "gold leaf replaced by buff enamel. Three coats of dark green > specified. Reference numbers for buff and dark green enamels shown. > "Except 4908-4913 incl" Added to title. > 10-6-52 (EL-27-52)" > > Hope this helps. > Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 10:22:38 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers R50B Frank, Thanks - looks nice! It looks like the "prewar" scheme is depicted and I like it. From the announcement, my wish about wire grabs has been answered! BTW, What the dickens is a "P70" truck? ;^) (looks like a 2D-P5?) We also suggested at least 10 numbers for each scheme...guess they didn't like that idea (I would also have gone for a painted, un-numbered car)...guess I'll be renubmering some of mine! Happy Rails Bruce >Bruce et al, > >Have had a number of requests to post the Walthers R50B picture. >You can view it at: >www.provide.net/~parkvarieties/wkwr50b.jpg > >I am going to pursue Walthers about making the trucks available separately. >Will let you guys know if they respond. >Frank Brua Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 05 Nov 2002 11:39:17 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Tortoise Switch Machines From: Jerry Britton Not PRR, but I'm sure there are a lot of modelers on the list who use Tortoise switch machines... I have one instance where the hole for my switch machine comes through the subroadbed tight up against a benchwork joist. Yeah, I know, poor planning! Anyway, the hole is free and clear, but the alignment of the turnout is neither parallel or perpendicular to the joist, but on about a 35-degree angle. The Tortoise can't be mounted in the normal fashion as the corner of the case is in the way. The template for mounting the Tortoise offers two alternate locations. I believe one of these will work. But the instructions indicates that using these will "change the geometry of the spring wire. Request Application Note AN-6000-01." Anyone know where I can get this tech note? I'm sure I could figure it out by trial and error, but doing it right the first time sure would be helpful! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2002 10:41:23 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Re: GG1 Gold/Buff Lettering and Stripes >Hey Bruce......... > > I have a PRR Paint