Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 08:10:21 +0900 From: K-Hiyama Subject: Re: [PRR] Movie: North by Northwest Lew and the Lists, Both locomotives hava just "SOUTHERN". The patchs covered to "PACIFIC". :-) The trains consists were following. 1. a "Black widow" F-unit with steam generater & 36in. DB fan. Maybe F5,F7,F9. 2. a "Blody nose" F9 without steam generater. 3. NYC baggage car. tow tone glay scheme. 4-6. Espee's "DayLight" scheme coachs. Please visit to my PRR model page http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Toys/9237/index.html Kazuaki Hiyama. from Japan. "Lewis J. Matt PhD" wrote: > The side of each loco was labeled "Southern" no Pacific was evident. :-) > > Lew > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 00:55:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Metrics Dick writes... << Just my 2 cents worth - notice that computers don't have a 1/4 a 1/2 or "cents" keys? They had to be dropped - for instruction keys and since it was no longer possible to use an "O" for a Zero or an "I" for a numeral 1.... >> Would it surprise anyone to see ½¢ or ¼¢ or ¾¢ on an email...? 3^) MY spell checker stops at your 1/4 but breezes by the ¼... Go figure? They are there you just need to know how to access them. When the world changes we Yanks think it should change for us... We even remind the masses of Americans that we are the biggest market for foreign goods there is. This might all be true but maybe the world will change again...? Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] Metrics Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:14:54 +0100 I would agree with the variations in the size of an inch, the Swedes had a large network of 3' gauge lines that were 891mm in Metric. This scales out as 35.078" British... As to the weird pre metric UK, what about the currency prior to 1971 when there were 240p to one Pound. Patrick Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew J Brown" To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 6:17 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Metrics > I think that the two reasons the Metric system took off worldwide are > simply: > > (a) Scientists love it; the one place the USA uses metric exclusively > is in science. The easy unit conversions and relatively logical > system just work better, and besides, a consistant language (English) > and measuring system (SI) worldwide are just so helpful for science. > > (b) No system that required the world to pick up one country's > traditional system was ever going to work. Metric, being nobody's > traditional system, was the only thing that stood a chance to become a > world standard. > > Remember, every European country had inches, pretty much. The problem > was, each of them had their *own* inch. Nobody was going to accept > one guy's inch over anyone else's. > > - > > The other part of it is simply that many countries' pre-Metric > measurement systems were very complicated. Look at the British > Imperial measurements, sometime. > > -Matt > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 06:22:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR power From: Jerry Britton On 7/31/02 5:35 PM, "KEMACPRR@aol.com" wrote: > I've heard on some other lists that Roco has announced the future production > of an HO scale GG-1. They also announced production of the AC 4400 and an > updated > FP-7 which is suppoused to come equipped with sound. The FP7 with sound will be in Tuscan five-stripe and marketed by ER Models. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 07:31:39 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR and PC Arranged Freight Schedules In a message dated 7/30/02 1:11:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] Changes over time in Arranged Freight > Schedules > From: "Gregg Mahlkov" > Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 22:53:40 -0400 > > List, > > Working in the PRR Traffic Department from 1962 to 1968 (and beyond with > PC), I recall that each one of us in Sales maintained a looseleaf Through > Freight Schedules book. We got revisions monthly, and they ran from a > couple > of pages to 50 pages or more. Not all changed times or blocks, many just > changed connections at origin, intermediate, or destination yards, but > there > WAS constant change. > > Gregg Mahlkov > Greg, Some kind soul at Columbus Division headquarters once gave me the corresponding PC binder and a large number of sets of insertions for the book. I keep hoping, in the aftermath of our move, that I will find my complete file of this material. In any case, I can attest that this "kit" contained frequent page changes, showing that these schedules continued to be altered a lot into PC days. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Access your PC just like Web Mail http://us.click.yahoo.com/r5uw2C/zncEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 07:31:39 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR and PC Arranged Freight Schedules --part1_150.11c13a5c.2a7a761b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/30/02 1:11:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] Changes over time in Arranged Freight > Schedules > From: "Gregg Mahlkov" > Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 22:53:40 -0400 > > List, > > Working in the PRR Traffic Department from 1962 to 1968 (and beyond with > PC), I recall that each one of us in Sales maintained a looseleaf Through > Freight Schedules book. We got revisions monthly, and they ran from a > couple > of pages to 50 pages or more. Not all changed times or blocks, many just > changed connections at origin, intermediate, or destination yards, but > there > WAS constant change. > > Gregg Mahlkov > Greg, Some kind soul at Columbus Division headquarters once gave me the corresponding PC binder and a large number of sets of insertions for the book. I keep hoping, in the aftermath of our move, that I will find my complete file of this material. In any case, I can attest that this "kit" contained frequent page changes, showing that these schedules continued to be altered a lot into PC days. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_150.11c13a5c.2a7a761b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/30/02 1:11:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PennsyWest] Changes over time in Arranged Freight  Schedules
From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 22:53:40 -0400

List,

Working in the PRR Traffic Department from 1962 to 1968 (and beyond with
PC), I recall that each one of us in Sales maintained a looseleaf Through
Freight Schedules book. We got revisions monthly, and they ran from a couple
of pages to 50 pages or more. Not all changed times or blocks, many just
changed connections at origin, intermediate, or destination yards, but there
WAS constant change.

Gregg Mahlkov


Greg,

Some kind soul at Columbus Division headquarters once gave me the corresponding PC binder and a large number of sets of insertions for the book.  I keep hoping, in the aftermath of our move, that I will find my complete file of this material.  In any case, I can attest that this "kit" contained frequent page changes, showing that these schedules continued to be altered a lot into PC days.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_150.11c13a5c.2a7a761b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 07:41:27 -0400 From: "Gluckman, Robert" Subject: [PRR] FOR SALE: Soho HO Brass PRR Broadway cars I have a number of Soho (and some other importers) HO brass PRR passenger cars for sale. If Interested, please contact me off-list. Bob Gluckman ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 08:09:09 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Metrics All of Medicine is also metric EXCEPT the scale and thermometer in your doc's office which are still in pounds (lb. a Latin leftover) and degrees Fahrenheit (sp?) since these are the units that most patients are used to being measured in.... All the worlds major scientific Medical literature is in English but all medications in metric grams, milligrams, milliliters and so on. The old "American" pharmacy system was in grains, drams, ounces and used a bizarre bunch of goofy written symbols-- including Rx-- that I can neither remember or reproduce. Mandatory PRR content: If you look in older ETTs, there are listings of all the contracted Railroad surgeons, hospitals and first aid stations. These guys were old enough to remember drams! Jim McDaniel, prescribing in Metric here in Delmarva and wishing I could still be a PRR doctor. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Metrics Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 12:56:21 +0000 As a chemical engineer I have no trouble going back and forth between metric and English measurement. I have always been somewhat amused that we have a metric monetary system that is the easiest to understand in the world yet we resist changing the English measurement system whereas other countries have ridiculous monetary systems they refuse to change and use metric measurement systems. Go figure! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 08:19:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: North by Northwest From: John Sheets In the beginning of the movie, Cary Grant is traveling NY to Chicago on 20th Century, there are shots at Grand Central and along the Hudson as the police stop to board the train. The arrival in Chicago is shot in LaSalle St Station, they walk the train into the waiting room, and pass the NYC E's in Lightning Bolt grey scheme. There are additional shots in the men's lounge as he shaves, and avoids the police. The end shot is an SP engine and some tough to ID cars. Odd that Hitchcock used that scene as they were so perfect at the beginning. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Metrics Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:03:22 -0500 Also as an chemical engineer, I note that there is a difference between SI and metric units, particularly with respect to pressure and viscosity. I believe that the SI system, which is not in wide-spread use outside of academia, uses the PASCAL as a unit of force, and a PASCAL-SEC as a unit of viscosity. In plants that I have worked in which employ the metric system, pressure is usually in (horrors!) kilograms-force/sq. cm. or bars, and viscosity is still in centipoise. It should also be pointed out that a lot of the equipment is still designed in the English system of measurement, but the spec sheets are in metric. I've seen many heat exchangers specified with 25.4 mm ( actually one inch) tubes. -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:56 AM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Metrics As a chemical engineer I have no trouble going back and forth between metric and English measurement. I have always been somewhat amused that we have a metric monetary system that is the easiest to understand in the world yet we resist changing the English measurement system whereas other countries have ridiculous monetary systems they refuse to change and use metric measurement systems. Go figure! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR power Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 14:13:58 +0000 Jerry and the List: I wonder if Roco/ER will re-tool the FP-7 shell. Especially the number boards. Overall, the shell is not too bad. I have about 3 of them when they were available from Atlas. Ted >From: Jerry Britton >To: Ken McCorry , PRR-Talk >Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR power >Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 06:22:07 -0400 > >On 7/31/02 5:35 PM, "KEMACPRR@aol.com" wrote: > > > I've heard on some other lists that Roco has announced the future >production > > of an HO scale GG-1. They also announced production of the AC 4400 and >an > > updated > > FP-7 which is suppoused to come equipped with sound. > >The FP7 with sound will be in Tuscan five-stripe and marketed by ER Models. >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > >"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of >Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana >products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", >the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- >Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are >providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit >our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. >------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Buffalo line Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 14:18:23 +0000 There is an article on Trains.com web page about aplhabet routes that may be old knowledge but according to the article NS is going to mothball the PRR Buffalo line. They intend to shift their traffic to the old D&H line which will eliminate Keating summit and the required helpers. According to the article this is the steepest grade in the east at 2.2%. They do not intend to take up the tracks but they don't intend to utilize it for the forseeable future. If the article is accurate the information is quite thorough and worth the time to read it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 longetivity Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:47:59 -0400 Claus and List: >From some PRR lists at the Penna. State Archives are the following totals of B60, B60A and B60B for January 1st of the listed years: Year B60 B60A B60B 1947 316 42 551 1950 313 42 550 1953 280 39 548 1956 115 38 544 1960 86 29 534 1964 24 11 398 1967 3 3 213 1968 0 0 179 Note that a few B60 cars were modified with low arch roofs replacing the clerestory. These were still Class B60 and are not separately identified in the original PRR lists. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Claus Schlund" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 10:56 PM Subject: [PRR] B60 longetivity > Hi, > > Some time back Lew Matt and I were trying to > get some rough idea how long > the original B60 class of baggage cars lasted > in service. > > Now please note, I'm not talking about the later > B60b class, with it's balloon roof. I'm talking about the > original B60 class, which had a clerestory roof as it's > major spotting feature. The B60 car class was older and > was built much earlier than the B60b, with the earliest B60 > cars being built about 20 years before the first B60b > was constructed. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:42:02 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Metrics In a message dated 8/1/02 9:03:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ndbprr@att.net writes: << I have always been somewhat amused that we have a metric monetary system >> Not to be overly argumentative but our monetary ststem, I would say, is Decimal, not Metric - and, I believe, predates the Napoleanic Metric Measurement system. RR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:46:07 -0400 Subject: [PRR] 1954 Arranged Freight Schedules From: Jerry Britton I analyzing the schedule of trains that crossed the Rockville Bridge and/or went through Harrisburg for inclusion in my operating session plans, which spans 3 p.m. to 11 p.m. based on the schedules as published on September 26, 1954. The total number of scheduled freight and passenger trains during this eight hour shift is 49. Non-scheduled trains include mineral trains, Enola-Rutherford interchange trains, and local freights. I arrived at the list of scheduled freights based on their inclusion in the Philadelphia Division Employee TimeTable (ETT). I then looked up their symbols in the Arranged Freight Service Schedule dated December 1954. There are several trains not included in the latter, so they were probably discontinued after September and before December. Can anyone tell me anything about them, such as nicknames or consists (blocks)? They are HP-1 which I believe to be Pitcairn to East St. Louis BF-7 " Enola to Buffalo PG-15 " Enola to Pittsburgh NL-7 " Enola to Crestline PG-7 " Enola to Pittsburgh I also consulted the 1952 edition of the Arranged Freight Service Schedule and they weren't listed there either. Does anyone have a freight schedule from 1954 that is EARLIER than the December edition that I have? Similarly, does anyone have an MP229 from 1954? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: howdy@qnet.com Subject: [PRR] Interactive Units Converter Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 17:46:07 GMT Hi all, This site should answer all your conversion questions. http://www.convert-me.com/en/ Howdy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:57:44 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Metrics I am not sure what this thread has to do with the PRR, but while we are on it I have always been amazed (and relieved) that the powers that be never tried to metricized time. 1 day = 10 chrons 1 chron (=2.4 hours) 1 millechron (mch) (= 0.144 minutes = 8.64 secs) The Broadway Ltd departs NYP at 7.5 ch (EST) [there, that keeps it kosher ;-) ] Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== VVA249@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/1/02 9:03:17 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ndbprr@att.net > writes: > > << I have always been somewhat amused that we have a metric monetary system > >> > > Not to be overly argumentative but our monetary ststem, I would say, is > Decimal, not Metric - and, I believe, predates the Napoleanic Metric > Measurement system. > RR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 14:05:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Metrics From: Jerry Britton On 8/1/02 1:57 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > I am not sure what this thread has to do with the PRR PRR came up a couple times during the conversation, but I have to agree, I think it is time to put this topic to rest... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] 1954 Arranged Freight Schedules Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 18:07:12 +0000 Hope you aren't planning to use a fast clock. That works out to one every ten minutes in real time. How big is your operating department budget? :-) > I analyzing the schedule of trains that crossed the Rockville Bridge and/or > went through Harrisburg for inclusion in my operating session plans, which > spans 3 p.m. to 11 p.m. based on the schedules as published on September 26, > 1954. > > The total number of scheduled freight and passenger trains during this eight > hour shift is 49. Non-scheduled trains include mineral trains, > Enola-Rutherford interchange trains, and local freights. > > I arrived at the list of scheduled freights based on their inclusion in the > Philadelphia Division Employee TimeTable (ETT). I then looked up their > symbols in the Arranged Freight Service Schedule dated December 1954. There > are several trains not included in the latter, so they were probably > discontinued after September and before December. Can anyone tell me > anything about them, such as nicknames or consists (blocks)? They are > > HP-1 which I believe to be Pitcairn to East St. Louis > BF-7 " Enola to Buffalo > PG-15 " Enola to Pittsburgh > NL-7 " Enola to Crestline > PG-7 " Enola to Pittsburgh > > I also consulted the 1952 edition of the Arranged Freight Service Schedule > and they weren't listed there either. > > Does anyone have a freight schedule from 1954 that is EARLIER than the > December edition that I have? > > Similarly, does anyone have an MP229 from 1954? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 14:14:32 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] 1954 Arranged Freight Schedules From: Jerry Britton On 8/1/02 2:07 PM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > Hope you aren't planning to use a fast clock. That > works out to one every ten minutes in real time. How > big is your operating department budget? :-) First, I said I was "analyzing" trains for inclusion. I did not say I was going to model all 49 trains! Yes, I plan to use a fast clock. Tentatively looking at 2:1, which would make for a four hour session. Everyone involved so far thinks this is fine and I've been through a few sessions of this length myself. IF, I said IF, I were to do all trains, that would average 13 per hour. The following would be considerations: * There are bottlenecks on the layout. Can close schedules be accomplished in compressed time, especially on routes such as Enola to Buffalo which will block all four tracks of the Rockville Bridge? * Would there be enough time to swap out power (if needed) at Harrisburg, as well as to shuffle cars (required on some trains)? * Can enough operators fit in the area to operate this many trains? I think the answer to all of these is "no". When I get closer to operating I will select which trains to model. Selection will be based on consist and schedule as main factors. BTW: For the vast majority of you that aren't on the Eastern Region's mailing list, my layout has been making steady progress. You can read about it and view photos at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ . ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:59:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Benjamin Sullivan Subject: [PRR] PRR magazine ads on Amazon.com's Z-Shops Hi all, I stumbled across this on Amazon.com's "Z-shops". Quite a neat collection of some PRR magazine ads up for bid. The link is a long one - copy and paste the ENTIRE link into your browser for this to work. http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/search-handle-url/104-4424658-5806367?ix=auction&rank=%2Benddate&fqp=org-unit-id%014%02site-org-unit-id%014%02enddate%010a-%02status%01open%02keywords%01pennsylvania%20railroad%02browse%0168457&sz=3&pg=1&page=1&size=50&rank=*&field-enddate=0a- You can't read ALL the text (some images are small) but there are some VERY interesting ones in there. I especially like the one from 1947 requesting increased freight rates! GO PRR! - Ben ===== ____________________________________________________________ Ride the East Broad Top RR! http://www.spikesys.com/EBT Rockhill Furnace, PA __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR power Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 15:50:17 -0400 How sure is this rumor about a GG1 from Rocco? The German website that seem to get news of new engines long before we do has nothing on it. I wonder if we will ever see a plastic P5a, now that would be cool. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 15:50:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR power From: Jerry Britton On 8/1/02 3:50 PM, Eric Lauterbach (ealauterbach@earthlink.net) wrote: > How sure is this rumor about a GG1 from Rocco? The German website that seem > to get news of new engines long before we do has nothing on it. I wonder if > we will ever see a plastic P5a, now that would be cool. Every November I run a survey across this list. The results are compiled and forwarded to key contacts at about a dozen manufacturers. The P5/P5a/modified has consistently been the highest requested electric loco. You can find the full results in the list archive if you search on "survey results". ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 16:03:51 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR power Unfortunately, P5s maybe very popular in our elite group, but they don't have the audience that GG-1s do. For a start GG-1s can (legitimately) be painted for PRR (6 schemes), PC, Conrail, Amtrak (several schemes) NJDOT, and the ever popular American RRs baby blue (BBLE?). I own two Alco Models brass P5s and they get extensive usage. The other night one of them hauled a 40 car freight up our long 2% grade at the Northshore Model RR Club! As happy as I am with them, I fear they are all I will ever have :-( -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > On 8/1/02 3:50 PM, Eric Lauterbach (ealauterbach@earthlink.net) wrote: > > > How sure is this rumor about a GG1 from Rocco? The German website that seem > > to get news of new engines long before we do has nothing on it. I wonder if > > we will ever see a plastic P5a, now that would be cool. > > Every November I run a survey across this list. The results are compiled and > forwarded to key contacts at about a dozen manufacturers. > > The P5/P5a/modified has consistently been the highest requested electric > loco. > > You can find the full results in the list archive if you search on "survey > results". > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:49:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] 1954 Arranged Freight Schedules Hi Jerry & List......... PRR Freight "BF-7" was out of Baltimore according to PRR Dec 1954 Arr. Freight. Checking Dispatch sheets to see if route via York Pa. or Port Road. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 19:18:16 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Freight Service Brief Books FYI - here is what I say about the subject of freight train operations and brief books specifically from, the E&P book - still underway. Revisions were made from time to time in block makeup, times, connections, as well as origin, destination and intermediate points. For example in 1927 EP-1 departed Conway at 2200, in 1929 at 0030, in 1931 at 2315, in 1937 at 0015, in 1941 at 2114, in 1946 at 0830, in 1956 at 0845 and in 1960 at 2030. Changes were made to accommodate changing traffic patterns and other service variations and ranged from a few to many pages. Given that the brief book was a dynamic document discussing any specific symbol's service over time with any degree of consistent accuracy is difficult. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 20:16:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 1954 Arranged Freight Schedules --part1_103.1935d740.2a7b294e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/01/2002 1:54:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > HP-1 which I believe to be Pitcairn to East St. Louis > BF-7 " Enola to Buffalo > PG-15 " Enola to Pittsburgh > NL-7 " Enola to Crestline > PG-7 " Enola to Pittsburgh > > For what it is worth from the April 29,1951 Pittsburgh Division ETT HP-1 terminated at Pitcairn not on the corresponding Panhandle Division ETT PG-7 terminated at Conemaugh No NL-7, PG-15 Sept. 26, 1948 ETT Pittsburgh Division HP-1 terminated at Pitcairn PG-7 terminated at Pitcairn No NL-7 or PG-15 >From April 24, 1955 Middle Division ETT PG-15 terminated at ANTIS Rich Orr --part1_103.1935d740.2a7b294e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/01/2002 1:54:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:


HP-1    which I believe to be Pitcairn to East St. Louis
   BF-7    " Enola to Buffalo
   PG-15   " Enola to Pittsburgh
   NL-7    " Enola to Crestline
   PG-7    " Enola to Pittsburgh



For what it is worth from the April 29,1951 Pittsburgh Division ETT
HP-1 terminated at Pitcairn  not on the corresponding Panhandle Division ETT
PG-7 terminated at Conemaugh
No NL-7, PG-15

Sept. 26, 1948 ETT Pittsburgh Division
HP-1 terminated at Pitcairn
PG-7 terminated at Pitcairn
No NL-7 or PG-15

From April 24, 1955 Middle Division ETT
PG-15 terminated at ANTIS

Rich Orr --part1_103.1935d740.2a7b294e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] New Roco models Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 18:15:48 -0700 Hey Gize... This was just posted to the SteamLoco group...I thought it might be pertanant to a particular thread that's running rampant in the list ;-) Bill Daniels (post follows) Hi guys, Today I received an email newsletter from All American Trains (www.aat-net.de), the German shop that seems to have all the news first... The owner of the shop visited the NMRA Ft. Lauderdale convention and talked to the E&R representatives. I've translated the news on the Roco/E&R partnership. Cornelius Koelewijn - Netherlands (Europe) ===== Roco & E&R Models USA Roco Austria and E&R announced a new partnership in July, whereby Roco will again enter the US market. Roco will not only produce locomotives and cars for the US market, but structures and electronic accessories as well. One of the first offerings will be a starter set with the Roco Digital Mouse II and a GP40. Each set contains three cars and Roco Line track. Paint schemes are UP and CSX. The FP7 model is totally remanufactured and available with decoder and sound only. Roadnames: Amtrak, BN, CP Rail, PRR; C&O and SP. The AC4400 is a entirely new model. Two roadnumbers for each road, with decoder and a third version with sound. Roadnames: CSX-, CNW, CP, SP and UP. Price and date of delivery t.b.a. Other plans: Challenger and GG1. At the Chicago Hobby Show in September Roco will announce another new 'modern' model. Roco will add new American models to the Minitank program. The 'old' freight car models are to be redone with Kadee compatible couplers and authentic loads. The American style digital wrecking crane will be offerend in CB&Q, AT&SF, UP, PRR und NYC. Roco will also offer an American version of the digital turntable. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 21:59:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] 1954 Arranged Freight Schedules..."BF-7" Jerry...... PRR train "BF-7" was pretty much a solid reefer train that was re-iced at Renovo. This train is on a CLY tower sheet from '54 but not sure of York or Port Road route. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] 1954 Arranged Freight Schedules..."BF-7" Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:34:50 -0400 Jerry, I don't know about 1954, but in 1966, virtually all traffic except the TrucTrains operated via the Port Road between Enola and Bay View Yard in Baltimore. If BF-7 was a reefer train, it would have traffic originated at Pot Yd, and it would be an easier, and electric, move via the Port Road. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Jerry Britton" ; Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:59 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] 1954 Arranged Freight Schedules..."BF-7" > Jerry...... > > PRR train "BF-7" was pretty much a solid reefer train that was > re-iced at Renovo. This train is on a CLY tower sheet from '54 but not > sure of York or Port Road route. > > Dave > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 00:39:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR power Hey Yuze Gize, It is interesting to note that Atlas doesn't show the Pennsy H-15-44 as one they plan to release. I was just wondering if they would just paint it in PRR to capture the market as Bachmann decided to do. Anyone interested in a Rock Island unit... LOL LOL LOL LOL Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] New Roco models Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:26:02 +0100 I assume they will fit RP25 wheels and not NEM. Their European models wheels have huge flanges as per NEM standards Patrick Grace www.prr.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 2:15 AM Subject: [PRR] New Roco models > Hey Gize... > > This was just posted to the SteamLoco group...I thought it > might be pertanant to a particular thread that's running > rampant in the list ;-) > > Bill Daniels > > (post follows) > > Hi guys, > > Today I received an email newsletter from All American > Trains > (www.aat-net.de), the German shop that seems to have > all the news > first... The owner of the shop visited the NMRA Ft. > Lauderdale > convention and talked to the E&R representatives. I've > translated the > news on the Roco/E&R partnership. > > Cornelius Koelewijn - Netherlands (Europe) > > > ===== > > > Roco & E&R Models USA > > Roco Austria and E&R announced a new partnership in > July, whereby Roco > will again enter the US market. Roco will not only > produce locomotives > and cars for the US market, but structures and > electronic accessories as > well. > > One of the first offerings will be a starter set with > the Roco Digital > Mouse II and a GP40. Each set contains three cars and > Roco Line track. > Paint schemes are UP and CSX. > > The FP7 model is totally remanufactured and available > with decoder and > sound only. Roadnames: Amtrak, BN, CP Rail, PRR; C&O > and SP. > > The AC4400 is a entirely new model. Two roadnumbers > for each road, with > decoder and a third version with sound. Roadnames: > CSX-, CNW, CP, SP and > UP. Price and date of delivery t.b.a. > > Other plans: Challenger and GG1. At the Chicago Hobby > Show in September > Roco will announce another new 'modern' model. > > Roco will add new American models to the Minitank > program. > > The 'old' freight car models are to be redone with > Kadee compatible > couplers and authentic loads. > > The American style digital wrecking crane will be > offerend in CB&Q, > AT&SF, UP, PRR und NYC. > Roco will also offer an American version of the > digital turntable. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR K4 #5484 W/Disk Drivers Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 07:52:34 -0400

Group,  I have been wanting for a while to model this locomotive and I am finally going to start on it using  a Bowser kit as my starting point. I am going to try to create my own Disk drivers.  I will let you know how that works later. But A couple questions I have are, 1st the front end throttle, Does anybody make one in brass? Or should I just try to reproduce it fom plastic? Secondly there are wash out plugs on the engineer side. Where can I get them?  And lastly I was going to remotor.  Should I just get a Helix Humper or Should I get NWSL gearbox and can motor? If I go with the gearbox is it worth all the aggrevation to put it in?

 

Thanks in advance 

Sam
 

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----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 08:06:07 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Freight Symbol BF-7 in 1954 From: Jerry Britton Thread started yesterday about freight symbol BF-7 in 1954. I reported that it was shown in the Philadelphia Division ETT as of 9/54 but was not in the Schedule of Arranged Freight Service as of 12/54. I was seeking block information as well as to confirm this was an Enola to Buffalo route. One person indicated the train originated in Baltimore, another in Pot Yard. All seemed to agree the destination was Buffalo, with reefers being re-iced at Renovo. Many questioned whether or not the train came north via the Northern Central Branch or via the Port Road. Here are some answers. * The Philadelphia Division ETT shows the train scheduled past Creswell and COLA. This places it on the Port Road route. * The same document shows the train scheduled past HARRIS at 7:45 p.m. and departing Harrisburg at 10:45 p.m. This means the train never even went to Enola! Did Harrisburg have a re-icing station? I'm guessing so, to account for the three hour layover of a reefer train. Where was the re-icing station in Harrisburg? The schedule goes on to show the train passing ROCKVILLE and heading into the Williamsport Division. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 08:21:34 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR K4 #5484 W/Disk Drivers Sam sez: >Group, I have been wanting for a while to model this locomotive and I am >finally going to start on it using a Bowser kit as my starting point. I >am going to try to create my own Disk drivers. I will let you know how >that works later. But A couple questions I have are, 1st the front end >throttle, Does anybody make one in brass? Or should I just try to >reproduce it fom plastic? Secondly there are wash out plugs on the >engineer side. Where can I get them? And lastly I was going to remotor. >Should I just get a Helix Humper or Should I get NWSL gearbox and can >motor? If I go with the gearbox is it worth all the aggrevation to put it >in? Gosh, sounds like fun! I would go with Helix Humper since it costs about the same as all the NWSL parts together, is basically a "drop in solution" and is available through our very own webmeister (http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR K4 #5484 W/Disk Drivers (fwd) Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 13:57:21 +0000 The disk drivers shouldn't be too difficult with a plastic overlay of the spoked wheels. there have been several articles over the years in MR showing how to do it as I recall. Good luck on the other issues. Hope it goes well. ---------------------- Forwarded Message: --------------------- From: "Bruce F. Smith" To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR K4 #5484 W/Disk Drivers Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 08:21:34 -0500 Sam sez: >Group, I have been wanting for a while to model this locomotive and I am >finally going to start on it using a Bowser kit as my starting point. I >am going to try to create my own Disk drivers. I will let you know how >that works later. But A couple questions I have are, 1st the front end >throttle, Does anybody make one in brass? Or should I just try to >reproduce it fom plastic? Secondly there are wash out plugs on the >engineer side. Where can I get them? And lastly I was going to remotor. >Should I just get a Helix Humper or Should I get NWSL gearbox and can >motor? If I go with the gearbox is it worth all the aggrevation to put it >in? Gosh, sounds like fun! I would go with Helix Humper since it costs about the same as all the NWSL parts together, is basically a "drop in solution" and is available through our very own webmeister (http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] New Roco models From: Matthew J Brown Date: 02 Aug 2002 07:59:17 -0700 "pgrace" writes: > I assume they will fit RP25 wheels and not NEM. > Their European models wheels have huge flanges as per NEM standards Of course: the Roco built locomotives for Proto 2000 were to RP25. They will, I'm sure, build them with their prospective market in mind -- it would be totally stupid to do otherwise. They *may*, as they've done before, make a NEM profiled version for European collectors, as they did with the USRA 2-8-8-2. -Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] New PRR power Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 08:50:56 -0700 Because the PRR H-16-44's had the late Phase 1 cab with no peripheral semi-circular windows (a.k.a. late Loewy cab) and the C-Liner truck instead of AAR B, maybe they plan to do a later run corresponding to the proto later models ('51 to intro of Phase 2 "Baby TM" body)? Just hoping! Elden -----Original Message----- From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com [mailto:TGREGMRTN@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 9:39 PM To: jerry@pennsyrr.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] New PRR power Hey Yuze Gize, It is interesting to note that Atlas doesn't show the Pennsy H-15-44 as one they plan to release. I was just wondering if they would just paint it in PRR to capture the market as Bachmann decided to do. Anyone interested in a Rock Island unit... LOL LOL LOL LOL Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:02:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR K4 #5484 W/Disk Drivers Sam, list, I'm not planning on K4s 5484, but I am planning on a K4sa, probably the 612. No one makes the front end throttle case that goes on and around the upper smokebox (or at least not Bowser, Cal Scale, PSC, LeeTown, Precision Scale Co, or Cary). I'm thinking styrene will be the way to go....grin! For washout plugs, try Cary 13-271 washout plugs. I haven't thought much about the steps hanging off the front ends of the left and right running boards along the boiler. Plastic would be easy, but probably fragile. I like the Alliance Locomotive repower kits a bunch. They're very quiet and smooth, and you only have to solder two wires to be in business. I have one NWSL gearbox conversion (my model of E6s 460) that runs perfectly, and two other conversions that run indifferently (my lack of skill in these matters is a factor, I'm sure). Doug --- Sam Vastano wrote, in part: But A couple questions I have are, 1st the front end throttle, Does anybody make one in brass? Or should I just try to reproduce it fom plastic? Secondly there are wash out plugs on the engineer side. Where can I get them?  And lastly I was going to remotor.  Should I just get a Helix Humper or Should I get NWSL gearbox and can motor? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR K4 #5484 W/Disk Drivers Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 13:52:14 -0400 Doug, Thanks for the info, I have been tossing the idea of using resin to fill in the spokes on the drivers to make them disk?? Anybody else ever try this? Will the resin stick to the metal? Thanks Sam >From: Doug Kisala >To: Sam Vastano , PRR talk >Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR K4 #5484 W/Disk Drivers >Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 10:02:44 -0700 (PDT) > >Sam, list, > >I'm not planning on K4s 5484, but I am planning on a >K4sa, probably the 612. No one makes the front end >throttle case that goes on and around the upper >smokebox (or at least not Bowser, Cal Scale, PSC, >LeeTown, Precision Scale Co, or Cary). I'm thinking >styrene will be the way to go....grin! For washout >plugs, try Cary 13-271 washout plugs. > >I haven't thought much about the steps hanging off the >front ends of the left and right running boards along >the boiler. Plastic would be easy, but probably >fragile. > >I like the Alliance Locomotive repower kits a bunch. >They're very quiet and smooth, and you only have to >solder two wires to be in business. > >I have one NWSL gearbox conversion (my model of E6s >460) that runs perfectly, and two other conversions >that run indifferently (my lack of skill in these >matters is a factor, I'm sure). > >Doug > >--- Sam Vastano wrote, in part: > >But A couple questions I have are, 1st the front end >throttle, Does anybody make one in brass? Or should I >just try to reproduce it fom plastic? Secondly there >are wash out plugs on the engineer side. Where can I >get them?  And lastly I was going to >remotor.  Should I just get a Helix Humper or >Should I get NWSL gearbox and can motor? > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better >http://health.yahoo.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Sam _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] New Roco models Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 19:58:13 +0100 Matt, I just wish they would fit their European models with RP25 wheels. Also their inter loco connections on the Swedish iron ore loco leave a lot to be desired.... Patrick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew J Brown" To: "pgrace" Cc: Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 3:59 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] New Roco models > "pgrace" writes: > > > I assume they will fit RP25 wheels and not NEM. > > Their European models wheels have huge flanges as per NEM standards > > Of course: the Roco built locomotives for Proto 2000 were to RP25. > They will, I'm sure, build them with their prospective market in mind > -- it would be totally stupid to do otherwise. > > They *may*, as they've done before, make a NEM profiled version for > European collectors, as they did with the USRA 2-8-8-2. > > -Matt > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:43:26 EDT Subject: [PRR] CL&N/DL&C/Mixed/McCullough Yard --part1_ce.2a663abb.2a7c9d4e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/1/02 11:50:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 18:44:56 -0500 > From: Richard Wallis > Subject: Unusual commuter service, Cincinnati-Lebanon in 1931 > > Listfellows: > > I stumbled over another timetable tidbit from the > November, 1931 "Official Guide" that may be of interest > to Lines Westers... > > It looks like an ordinary commuter schedule being > operated on the old CL&N branch from Cincinnati to > Lebanon, Ohio: a single round-trip daily except Sunday. > Inbound leaving Lebanon at 5:55 AM with arrival at the > old Court Street station at 7:30; outbound Monday-Friday > leaving Cincinnati at 5:20 Pm, and on saturday at 12:30 > PM (in the old days of 5-1/2 day workweeks, there were > usually early Saturday afternoon outbounds to accomodate > commuters). Sounds typical, except for one thing: these > trains were listed as "Mixed" trains--with freight > equipment tacked on. Imagine a commuter's reaction for > the occasional stop to set out a car;-). > > Richard Wallis > Probable reason -- not much freight traffic north of Blue Ash or so. John Hauck's Narrow Gauge in Ohio details the life and death of the CL&N. As an aside, this probably also represents the period when the track from Lebanon north to Lytle was gently abandoned in place. Hauck describes a really tough trip over this track in 1935, sort of an exploring trip with an engine and caboose. Believe this middle section was torn out in the Fifties; it was the poorest section built and stayed that way. Both ends of the Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern/Dayton Lebanon & Cincinnati were still open in the early 70's -- a southern stretch of the CL&N had been heavily industrialized circa WW1 and again WW2 and later, and was worked out of McCullough Yard in Norwood, where this former narrow gauge crossed the PRR's Richmond Branch. An expressway had wiped out the tunnel and hill down into Court Street (the southern terminus), but north of that there was still much traffic, including a GM Camaro assembly plant. Although GM is now gone, the CL&N is largely intact up to Lebanon and is operated by a short line. The north end hasn't made out so well, and is abandoned in its entirety, save one scrap from Clement on the Dayton-Xenia main south to a Delphi plant. This is part of what was PRR once designated the Clement - Hempstead Industrial Track. But the busy main route (in the Twenties) that hauled commuters NORTH out of Lebanon, through Centerville and Hempstead and down the hill into Dayton to stations at Brown Street (National Cash Register's manufacturing campus) and Washington Street (the north end, physically just south of Dayton Union Station) is but a bump on the landscape. Roger Rassche is sure to have more commentary -- he grew up near McCullough Yard and can remember the H-10-44's that smoked up the neighborhood. I have more of a tendency to remember de-turboed GP-20's at McCullough (late PC?). Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_ce.2a663abb.2a7c9d4e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/1/02 11:50:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 4
   Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 18:44:56 -0500
   From: Richard Wallis <rwallis1@earthlink.net>
Subject: Unusual commuter service, Cincinnati-Lebanon in 1931

Listfellows:

I stumbled over another timetable tidbit from the
November, 1931 "Official Guide" that may be of interest
to Lines Westers...

It looks like an ordinary commuter schedule being
operated on the old CL&N branch from Cincinnati to
Lebanon, Ohio: a single round-trip daily except Sunday.
Inbound leaving Lebanon at 5:55 AM with arrival at the
old Court Street station at 7:30; outbound Monday-Friday
leaving Cincinnati at 5:20 Pm, and on saturday at 12:30
PM (in the old days of 5-1/2 day workweeks, there were
usually early Saturday afternoon outbounds to accomodate
commuters).  Sounds typical, except for one thing: these
trains were listed as "Mixed" trains--with freight
equipment tacked on.  Imagine a commuter's reaction for
the occasional stop to set out a car;-).

Richard Wallis


Probable reason -- not much freight traffic north of Blue Ash or so.  John Hauck's Narrow Gauge in Ohio details the life and death of the CL&N.

As an aside, this probably also represents the period when the track from Lebanon north to Lytle was gently abandoned in place.  Hauck describes a really tough trip over this track in 1935, sort of an exploring trip with an engine and caboose.  Believe this middle section was torn out in the Fifties; it was the poorest section built and stayed that way.

Both ends of the Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern/Dayton Lebanon & Cincinnati were still open in the early 70's -- a southern stretch of the CL&N had been heavily industrialized circa WW1 and again WW2 and later, and was worked out of McCullough Yard in Norwood, where this former narrow gauge crossed the PRR's Richmond Branch.  An expressway had wiped out the tunnel and hill down into Court Street (the southern terminus), but north of that there was still much traffic, including a GM Camaro assembly plant.  Although GM is now gone, the CL&N is largely intact up to Lebanon and is operated by a short line.

The north end hasn't made out so well, and is abandoned in its entirety, save one scrap from Clement on the Dayton-Xenia main south to a Delphi plant.  This is part of what was PRR once designated the Clement - Hempstead Industrial Track.  But the busy main route (in the Twenties) that hauled commuters NORTH out of Lebanon, through Centerville and Hempstead and down the hill into Dayton to stations at Brown Street (National Cash Register's manufacturing campus) and Washington Street (the north end, physically just south of Dayton Union Station) is but a bump on the landscape.

Roger Rassche is sure to have more commentary -- he grew up near McCullough Yard and can remember the H-10-44's that smoked up the neighborhood.  I have more of a tendency to remember de-turboed GP-20's at McCullough (late PC?).

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_ce.2a663abb.2a7c9d4e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Freight Symbol BF-7 in 1954 Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 22:30:01 -0500 Hi Jerry--You wrote: > > The schedule goes on to show the train passing ROCKVILLE and heading into > the Williamsport Division. > Since this is 1954, I think it would be the Susquehanna Division. Very interesting routing. Have fun! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kris Kollar" Subject: [PRR] FA-@/FB-2 project Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 15:03:14 -0400 While on vacation I started my next project of PRR-izing a Proto 2000 FA2/B2 set of locomotives. I'm hoping someone can lead me to some clear reference photos of the tops of these beauties. Specifically I'm looking for shots of the exhaust stack circa 1955/56. If there are differences in their later years can someone explain them? Has any one had luck with the train phone stanchions that come down the front side of the A-unit? Are they made as an after market detail item? I was hoping they'd be in the Cal Scale kit but they were not. Also can anyone point me to the a good photo of how the train phone antennae comes down the back of the A unit? Thanks for all the help you've given in the past and I hope can provide again this time! Kris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] (PRR) Disk Drivers Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 19:44:46 -0400 Group, For anyone interested I posted a picture of the Bowser drivers I have converted to disk drivers. Here is the link.. http://groups.msn.com/Samstoys/samstrainphotos.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=36 The way I did it was to use the original spoke drivers and fill them with auto body filler(Bondo)making sure it went all the way through. Then I used an exacto knife with a strait edge I think it was a # 17 blade and carved out the bondo to the top of the spokes. After that I drilled the holes that I see in the photo of 5484. I have also used very heavy auto primer to prime them. This is the state you see them now. I used the thick auto primer to fill in any last imperfections. I will wait until tomorrow before I do my final sanding. Sam Vastano Sam _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] FA-@/FB-2 project Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 22:59:55 -0500 Hi Kris: Clear reference photos of the top of almost anything are hard to find. Pennsy Power III p. 304 may be useful. The exhaust stack was moved to the center line as the engines underwent modification from the air cooled tubocharger to a watercooled type. CalScale 190-460 mounted so the long dimension is across the car body will work. For the train phone stanchions over the windshield and down the side use Utah Pacific Antenna Mast 755-92. For the trainphone conduit down the rear of the unit I think Greg Martin has the info. I thought he had posted a photo on his site but it isn't there or else I am mistaken. Greg's article in Mainline Modeler August 1992 will be helpful to you. Have fun! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 08:10:56 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) Disk Drivers >Group, > >For anyone interested I posted a picture of the Bowser drivers I have >converted to disk drivers. Here is the link.. > >http://groups.msn.com/Samstoys/samstrainphotos.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=36 > >The way I did it was to use the original spoke drivers and fill them with >auto body filler(Bondo)making sure it went all the way through. Then I used >an exacto knife with a strait edge I think it was a # 17 blade and carved >out the bondo to the top of the spokes. After that I drilled the holes that >I see in the photo of 5484. I have also used very heavy auto primer to prime >them. This is the state you see them now. I used the thick auto primer to >fill in any last imperfections. I will wait until tomorrow before I do my >final sanding. Sam, I know this is a bit late in the process...but I would make the foillowing suggestion...you could make a "master" for the disk driver fairly easily using the driver centers you have now. Once the master is made, you can create a mold in rubber and cast driver centers in either metal (my pref) or resin. Happy rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] FA-@/FB-2 project Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:17:41 -0400 Kris- Detailing FA1's can be found at the below link. Their are up close photos and they also show the conduit running down the side of the windshield. You will need to do that yourself with thin gauge wire. Their is also a super detailed T1 and HH2 for your modeling viewing. Surf around the site. It has PRR quality. http://www.xclent.clara.net/model_locos/fa1_pic1.htm The guys who do the website are from England. They love the PRR. Then again, who doesn't. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Kris Kollar Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 3:03 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] FA-@/FB-2 project While on vacation I started my next project of PRR-izing a Proto 2000 FA2/B2 set of locomotives. I'm hoping someone can lead me to some clear reference photos of the tops of these beauties. Specifically I'm looking for shots of the exhaust stack circa 1955/56. If there are differences in their later years can someone explain them? Has any one had luck with the train phone stanchions that come down the front side of the A-unit? Are they made as an after market detail item? I was hoping they'd be in the Cal Scale kit but they were not. Also can anyone point me to the a good photo of how the train phone antennae comes down the back of the A unit? Thanks for all the help you've given in the past and I hope can provide again this time! Kris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) Disk Drivers Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 09:48:57 -0400 Bruce, I would entertain the idea of doing this again it wasn't really much work. I don't really want to pull mine apart at this point. Anybody want to send me a wheel set and I would be happy to re-do them. I guess we would need both small counterweight & large counterweight. Then we could get a mold made and cast them in metal. I would be all for it. Sam >From: "Bruce F. Smith" >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) Disk Drivers >Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 08:10:56 -0500 > > >Group, > > > >For anyone interested I posted a picture of the Bowser drivers I have > >converted to disk drivers. Here is the link.. > > > >http://groups.msn.com/Samstoys/samstrainphotos.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=36 > > > >The way I did it was to use the original spoke drivers and fill them with > >auto body filler(Bondo)making sure it went all the way through. Then I >used > >an exacto knife with a strait edge I think it was a # 17 blade and carved > >out the bondo to the top of the spokes. After that I drilled the holes >that > >I see in the photo of 5484. I have also used very heavy auto primer to >prime > >them. This is the state you see them now. I used the thick auto primer to > >fill in any last imperfections. I will wait until tomorrow before I do my > >final sanding. > >Sam, > >I know this is a bit late in the process...but I would make the foillowing >suggestion...you could make a "master" for the disk driver fairly easily >using the driver centers you have now. Once the master is made, you can >create a mold in rubber and cast driver centers in either metal (my pref) >or resin. > >Happy rails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin >Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Sam _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 08:52:20 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR: Query From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" I am involved in constructing a rather large two level layout with helices at both ends. Yesterday I spent about 4 hours laying tracks that pass under a 4 chute coaling facility. The two main lines pass under the center of the facility and two side tracks pass on the outsides. The question: did the PRR or other Class I operations place coaling facilities on main lines like this? The segment of PRR territory I am familiar with did not as far as I know. The layout was started by a PRR nut, so after I joined the club there are two of us. The layout is supposed to be midwestern so there will be PRR, NYC, IC, and a host of other road names represented. A large section of the East Broad Top is also under construction. Checkout the website: www.galvrail.org to get an idea of what is going on. Yesterday I ran my coal train on the layout for the first time. The pair of Erie-builts hauled 64 cars with no problem, even up the helix on one end. Now all I have to do is get my I-1 engines done and I will really be in business. There is an open house on August 24 from 11 to 5 for NMRA Division 8 (Lone Star) for those of you in the Houston-Galveston area. The web site has directions on how to get there. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 10:00:22 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Query From: Jerry Britton On 8/5/02 9:52 AM, Donald E. Harper, Jr (harperd@tamug.tamu.edu) wrote: > I am involved in constructing a rather large two level layout with helices > at both ends. Yesterday I spent about 4 hours laying tracks that pass > under a 4 chute coaling facility. The two main lines pass under the center > of the facility and two side tracks pass on the outsides. The question: > did the PRR or other Class I operations place coaling facilities on main > lines like this? Absolutely! The PRR had such facilities, though larger, at THORN and DENHOLM. I seem to recall "Triumph I" showing photos of one that was damaged by one of the floods along the Conemaugh. So there would be three examples. Even the Northern Central Branch had one (two tracks) around Hanover Junction! > The segment of PRR territory I am familiar with did not > as far as I know. You didn't say what specific territory you are modeling... > > The layout was started by a PRR nut, so after I joined the club there are > two of us. The layout is supposed to be midwestern so there will be PRR, > NYC, IC, and a host of other road names represented. A large section of the > East Broad Top is also under construction. Checkout the website: > www.galvrail.org > to get an idea of what is going on. > > Yesterday I ran my coal train on the layout for the first time. The pair of > Erie-builts hauled 64 cars with no problem, even up the helix on one end. > Now all I have to do is get my I-1 engines done and I will really be in > business. > > There is an open house on August 24 from 11 to 5 for NMRA Division 8 (Lone > Star) for those of you in the Houston-Galveston area. The web site has > directions on how to get there. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 09:14:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Query From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Thanks Jerry. I came onto this project in March, about a year and a half after it was started, so am still not clear if we are really modeling a specific territory. I'm having lunch with two of the guys who were involved from the start, so will find out. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: Jerry Britton >To: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" , PRR-Talk LIST >Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Query >Date: Mon, 05 Aug, 2002, 9:00 > > On 8/5/02 9:52 AM, Donald E. Harper, Jr (harperd@tamug.tamu.edu) wrote: > >> I am involved in constructing a rather large two level layout with helices >> at both ends. Yesterday I spent about 4 hours laying tracks that pass >> under a 4 chute coaling facility. The two main lines pass under the center >> of the facility and two side tracks pass on the outsides. The question: >> did the PRR or other Class I operations place coaling facilities on main >> lines like this? > > Absolutely! The PRR had such facilities, though larger, at THORN and > DENHOLM. I seem to recall "Triumph I" showing photos of one that was damaged > by one of the floods along the Conemaugh. So there would be three examples. > Even the Northern Central Branch had one (two tracks) around Hanover > Junction! > >> The segment of PRR territory I am familiar with did not >> as far as I know. > > You didn't say what specific territory you are modeling... >> >> The layout was started by a PRR nut, so after I joined the club there are >> two of us. The layout is supposed to be midwestern so there will be PRR, >> NYC, IC, and a host of other road names represented. A large section of the >> East Broad Top is also under construction. Checkout the website: >> www.galvrail.org >> to get an idea of what is going on. >> >> Yesterday I ran my coal train on the layout for the first time. The pair of >> Erie-builts hauled 64 cars with no problem, even up the helix on one end. >> Now all I have to do is get my I-1 engines done and I will really be in >> business. >> >> There is an open house on August 24 from 11 to 5 for NMRA Division 8 (Lone >> Star) for those of you in the Houston-Galveston area. The web site has >> directions on how to get there. >> >> > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 10:22:54 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Query From: Jerry Britton On 8/5/02 10:14 AM, Donald E. Harper, Jr (harperd@tamug.tamu.edu) wrote: > I came onto this project in March, about a year and a half after it was > started, so am still not clear if we are really modeling a specific > territory. I'm having lunch with two of the guys who were involved from the > start, so will find out. > George Pierson did an excellent job of modeling the DENHOLM coal wharf. His layout is on my site at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/ There are photos of the coal wharf. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 10:28:38 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] FA-@/FB-2 project Kris, I put trainfone antennae on FAs some years ago. For the antenna extensions which run down the side I used the antenna posts with the bolted square top. I forget who made these (Carey?), but I believe they are the type used on GP30s. I used only the top part with the post cut off. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Kris Kollar wrote: > While on vacation I started my next project of PRR-izing a Proto 2000 FA2/B2 > set of locomotives. I'm hoping someone can lead me to some clear reference > photos of the tops of these beauties. Specifically I'm looking for shots of > the exhaust stack circa 1955/56. If there are differences in their later > years can someone explain them? Has any one had luck with the train phone > stanchions that come down the front side of the A-unit? Are they made as an > after market detail item? I was hoping they'd be in the Cal Scale kit but > they were not. Also can anyone point me to the a good photo of how the > train phone antennae comes down the back of the A unit? > > Thanks for all the help you've given in the past and I hope can provide > again this time! > > Kris > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR: Query Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 10:44:35 -0400 Post review of George Pierson's Denholm coal wharf, did Denholm have a track for hoppers above it? If so, was their a long ascending trestle to connect to the yard? I thought Denholm had a coal bucket that carried the coal to the top of the wharf. What about Thorndale? Anyone know how coal was transported to the top of the wharf? Greg V. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 10:23 AM To: Donald E. Harper, Jr; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Query On 8/5/02 10:14 AM, Donald E. Harper, Jr (harperd@tamug.tamu.edu) wrote: > I came onto this project in March, about a year and a half after it was > started, so am still not clear if we are really modeling a specific > territory. I'm having lunch with two of the guys who were involved from the > start, so will find out. > George Pierson did an excellent job of modeling the DENHOLM coal wharf. His layout is on my site at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/ There are photos of the coal wharf. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 10:50:02 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Query From: Jerry Britton On 8/5/02 10:44 AM, Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr. (gregv@NetReach.Net) wrote: > Post review of George Pierson's Denholm coal wharf, did Denholm have a track > for hoppers above it? If so, was their a long ascending trestle to connect > to the yard? I thought Denholm had a coal bucket that carried the coal to > the top of the wharf. > Denholm had wide sweeping S curves that went into the woods and down a slope to meet the tracks in either direction. There are published photos of full-size steam locos pushing regular hoppers across the trestle. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:52:55 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Query Don asked >I am involved in constructing a rather large two level layout with helices >at both ends. Yesterday I spent about 4 hours laying tracks that pass >under a 4 chute coaling facility. The two main lines pass under the center >of the facility and two side tracks pass on the outsides. The question: >did the PRR or other Class I operations place coaling facilities on main >lines like this? The segment of PRR territory I am familiar with did not >as far as I know. Don, As Jerry said, the answer is YES! I have seen a number of photos in my "coffee table RR books". Your subsequent comments about location are important too...In general, coaling facilities were located spanning mainlines if they were intermediate coaling stops that a majority of locomotives would use...for example before a long grade so that a stop would not be needed on the hill, or it no service facilities were needed. Many of these "intermediate" facilities were retired by the use of larger tenders. >From your description, it sounds almost as if you are using the Tichy coaling tower. As Jerry mentions, Denholm and Thorndale had coal wharfs, which were much lower structures, but which were designed to handle up to 12 tracks in Thorndale's case. There are a number of examples of concrete towers such as the Tichy one (although I'm not sure if they are the same) located on PRR mains, mostly I think on Lines West. The coaling tower on your layout should be a required stop for steamers (make sure they take sand and water too...usually water plugs would be located to either side of the tower). Diseasels should have a restricted speed order for the area around the coal tower. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 10:18:52 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Query >On 8/5/02 10:44 AM, Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr. (gregv@NetReach.Net) wrote: > >> Post review of George Pierson's Denholm coal wharf, did Denholm have a track >> for hoppers above it? If so, was their a long ascending trestle to connect >> to the yard? I thought Denholm had a coal bucket that carried the coal to >> the top of the wharf. Jerry replied >Denholm had wide sweeping S curves that went into the woods and down a slope >to meet the tracks in either direction. There are published photos of >full-size steam locos pushing regular hoppers across the trestle. Ditto for Thorndale. The switch was off the south side of the main, west of the coaling wharf, and allowed full sized hoppers to be pushed on top of the wharf where they were dumped into the holding bins. Photos of Thorndale can be found in Triumph III (IIRC ). One area of discussion was the date Thorndale was taken out of service. The video Pennsy Steam and Electric Years, vol 1 has clear shots of Thorndale in service with electric catenary strung, meaning it lasted past 1938. It was not torn down until MUCH later. George pointed out to me that the Denholm/Thorndale wharfs were "modular"...that is they were set up with 3 track bays...now wouldn't it be neat if someone offered a kit that could be built in increments of 3 bays... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] GP-9B's Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 16:26:53 +0000 There are what appear to be conflciting black and white pictures of GP-9B's regarding the porthole window. Some look like the rim has chromed or brass finish that is several inches wide while others look like the rim is DGLE. Since I have not seen a color picture does anybody know what the original color for the porthole window rim is? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:31:52 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Railtongs Several weeks ago during discussions of work equipment I mentioned railtongs. Well in routing around the "stuff" today I found them. They are part of a set by Custom Finishes, #7283, w/ 39" magnet, hoistblock w/hook and railtongs. Sorry for the delay. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR: Query Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 13:42:11 -0400 Bruce- If a train were heading inbound to Broad Street, would that have been a facing point switch before the engine reached the tower? Also, do you know if the incline was a trestle or an embankment? Doesn't the main line ascend in elevation at Thorndale towards Parkesburg? I believe that is why the trestle was there, to coal engines for the push. Greg Vlassopoulos -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bruce F. Smith Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 11:19 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Query >On 8/5/02 10:44 AM, Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr. (gregv@NetReach.Net) wrote: > >> Post review of George Pierson's Denholm coal wharf, did Denholm have a track >> for hoppers above it? If so, was their a long ascending trestle to connect >> to the yard? I thought Denholm had a coal bucket that carried the coal to >> the top of the wharf. Jerry replied >Denholm had wide sweeping S curves that went into the woods and down a slope >to meet the tracks in either direction. There are published photos of >full-size steam locos pushing regular hoppers across the trestle. Ditto for Thorndale. The switch was off the south side of the main, west of the coaling wharf, and allowed full sized hoppers to be pushed on top of the wharf where they were dumped into the holding bins. Photos of Thorndale can be found in Triumph III (IIRC ). One area of discussion was the date Thorndale was taken out of service. The video Pennsy Steam and Electric Years, vol 1 has clear shots of Thorndale in service with electric catenary strung, meaning it lasted past 1938. It was not torn down until MUCH later. George pointed out to me that the Denholm/Thorndale wharfs were "modular"...that is they were set up with 3 track bays...now wouldn't it be neat if someone offered a kit that could be built in increments of 3 bays... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 14:01:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] GP-9B's --part1_71.2373d867.2a801788_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/5/2002 12:36:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ndbprr@att.net writes: > There are what appear to be conflciting black and white > pictures of GP-9B's regarding the porthole window. Some > look like the rim has chromed or brass finish that is > several inches wide while others look like the rim is > DGLE. Since I have not seen a color picture does > anybody know what the original color for the porthole > window rim is? Thanks, Norm Bell > > Norm, could these photo reflect units that are new vs. one that have gone through the paint shop? Most of the time railroad shop didn't bother with masking off small details like trim when it was time for a repaint. FWIW Todd Horton --part1_71.2373d867.2a801788_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/5/2002 12:36:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ndbprr@att.net writes:


There are what appear to be conflciting black and white
pictures of GP-9B's regarding the porthole window.  Some
look like the rim has chromed or brass finish that is
several inches wide while others look like the rim is
DGLE.  Since I have not seen a color picture does
anybody know what the original color for the porthole
window rim is?  Thanks, Norm Bell



Norm, could these photo reflect units that are new vs. one that have gone through the paint shop? Most of the time railroad shop didn't bother with masking off small details like trim when it was time for a repaint. FWIW Todd Horton --part1_71.2373d867.2a801788_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 13:37:48 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Thorndale coaling was [PRR]:Query Greg, >If a train were heading inbound to Broad Street, would that have been a >facing point switch before the engine reached the tower? Yes...nice track diagram in Triumph 3. Unfortunately, the interlocking diagram on Mark Bej's site is too new to show it! However, page 15 of the pdf of the track chart on Jerry's site http://kc.pennsyrr.com/maps/downloads/tc_phil_19xxA.pdf does show it nicely...if you can see the details ! It looks like the wharf is about MP35.8 and the switch is around MP37. >Also, do you know >if the incline was a trestle or an embankment? Embankment...99% sure on that. When the Thorndale wharf was removed from service the service track was cut off, but the wharf stood for years. >Doesn't the main line ascend >in elevation at Thorndale towards Parkesburg? I believe that is why the >trestle was there, to coal engines for the push. Actually, it goes up in both directions! In fact, the push was as often as not needed in the Paoli direction. The push could be either steam or electric (this was after all, the home of the FF2s!) Note too that trains coming from Park off the A&S had also just climbed out of the Susquehanna river valley from Columbia and needed to replenish coal as well. Once the wharf was removed from service, the PRR created a small helper engine service facility in Thorndale yard. This consisted of two Fairbanks-Morse "ash hoist" towers between the two helper tracks, one facing each track...These towers were "catalog items" that railroads ordered and PRR used for ash hoists and coal hoists in a number of loacation. They had an undertrack unloading area, a skip that was hoisted up and dumped and a chute feeding the next track over. AFAIK, at Thorndale, one was used as an ash hoist, but the other had a hopper of coal parked over the undertrack bin, and it was used to coal the helpers. Thus at Thorndale, the siding off the helper track held a hopper of coal for unloading and an "empty" hopper for ash loading...L1s on the helper track could dump their ashes and get a fresh load of coal. These towers are often mistaken for sand towers, but really, they don't look like sand towers at all! I'm hoping to convince Overland to offer these in HO in brass . Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:47:57 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR: re: Query From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" The Galveston Model Railroad layout is a free lance section of the United States sort of centered Chicago and heading both east to western Pennsylvania and west to wherever. So I guess artistic license runs the program. This coaling tower I'm installing the tracks for is within 10 car lengths of a ruling grade of about 2.5 to 3%. I sure would hate to be the engineman who had to stop and take on coal and then head up that grade. If you run a train at scale speed, it takes almost an hour to make a complete circuit. I don't remember the conversion to scale time - is it 7 to 1? Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 11:50:20 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Query --- Jerry Britton wrote: [...] > I seem to recall "Triumph I" showing photos of one... Pages 230-231. Rather different in design from Denholm, but a coal facility extending over main tracks none-the-less. > ...that was damaged by one of the floods along the Conemaugh. The 1936 flood, a/k/a The St. Patrick's Day Flood. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 15:36:10 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] FA-@/FB-2 project > Kris- > > Detailing FA1's can be found at the below link. Their are up close photos and they also show the conduit running down the side of the windshield< Hey Yuze Gize... The photo reference is for the FA-1 (Walthers) and not the Life Like FA-2's Kris is working on and there is a difference. I did help john with his FA-1 project and it can be used as the basis for the Life Like FA-1's as well. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 15:40:21 -0400 From: Zak Subject: Re: [PRR] FA-@/FB-2 project Hi, all, Try Cal-Scale part #190-402 - Antenna Support System - F Units (12/bag), and Model Supplies part #2506 - brass wire - .019" diameter (10/bag). Zak ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 15:54:26 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Query In a message dated 8/5/02 10:53:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gregv@NetReach.Net writes: << What about Thorndale? Anyone know how coal was transported to the top of the wharf? Greg V. >> Greg there was a track that curved to the south and ended up on the wharf. If you get up to Thorndale and go to the west end by the old PRR toolhouse on Rt 30 and take a look at the bridges next to the toolhouse the back bridge was for the track to the coal wharf. ---------------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:02:23 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Query Greg Thorndale was in a bowl between Paoli and Parkesburg. They pushed to Paoli, Parkesburg and up the P&T to I believe Howellville. At Howellville there was a center siding called the back off siding which allowed the pushers to cross over and return to Thorn. Back then a lot of EB coal was going to the piers at South Amboy via Thorn, the P&T, Trenton cutoff. In the steam years it was one of the last places in this area to see M-1's as they frequently powered the coal trains. - Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 20:29:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] '68 Mustangs westbound on PRR Greetings list...... While watching some home movies shot in late 1967 of PRR freights on Middle and Pittsburgh Div, I notice a TrucTrain with a block of autoracks on the end of this train. Not so odd. But these racks were hauling brand new 1968 Ford Mustangs. Question is: Where would the PRR pick up new '68 Mustangs? Pot Yard maybe? I only know of one Ford Plant on the PRR (in NJ). I didn't think Mustangs were built in the Eastern U.S. Appreciate any info on this subject. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 21:42:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] '68 Mustangs westbound on PRR --part1_ad.21517b30.2a808385_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You don't say which direction the trains were traveling but I am guessing westbound? Chris Baker chrisandbelton2@aol.com --part1_ad.21517b30.2a808385_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You don't say which direction the trains were traveling but I am guessing westbound?

Chris Baker
chrisandbelton2@aol.com --part1_ad.21517b30.2a808385_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Evans" Subject: Re: [PRR] '68 Mustangs westbound on PRR Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 18:45:07 -0700 Was the train westbound or eastbound? Mark T. Evans Anaheim, CA ----- Original Message ----- > While watching some home movies shot in late 1967 of PRR freights > on Middle and Pittsburgh Div, I notice a TrucTrain with a block of > autoracks on the end of this train. Not so odd. But these racks were > hauling brand new 1968 Ford Mustangs. > > Question is: Where would the PRR pick up new '68 Mustangs? [snip] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 22:10:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] '68 Mustangs westbound on PRR Those 1968 Mustangs are headed westbound on PRR mainline in Altoona. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 21:03:09 -0700 Subject: [PRR] The Bells of PRR Steam Hi, I've always painted the bells on my PRR steam models with brass paint, on the assumption that the prototype bells were regularly polished. And if one looks in the PRRT&HS painting guide pamphlet published many years ago, one learns that in the late 1920's instructions to loco crews did specifically say that the bells were to be polished daily. However, while looking thru the color photos in "The Many Faces of the Pennsy K4" I noticed that the bells in these color photos all seemed to be black, or really dark-colored in any case. Now the color photos are all from the 1950's and I thought that perhaps the bells were not polished any more by that late date. So I looked thru some older b&w photos, looking to see if the bells appeared to be as dark as the rest of the loco, or if they were lighter than the loco. Well, it seems that in most b&w photos, the bells appear equally as dark as the rest of the loco. In some b&w pics, the bells do appear to be significantly lighter in color, but in many, maybe even in most, they appear to be relatively dark. So, I'm left to wonder, what colors are other modelers using to paint their PRR steam loco bells? My era is 1929, and I'm sure this may affect things since loco maintenance changed over the course of time. Also, wether a loco was used in freight or passenger service may have some impact as well. I'm really not looking for the definitive answer, as there probably isn't one - just fishing for some "paint opinions" from others... - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 20:29:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] '68 Mustangs westbound on PRR Greetings list...... While watching some home movies shot in late 1967 of PRR freights on Middle and Pittsburgh Div, I notice a TrucTrain with a block of autoracks on the end of this train. Not so odd. But these racks were hauling brand new 1968 Ford Mustangs. Question is: Where would the PRR pick up new '68 Mustangs? Pot Yard maybe? I only know of one Ford Plant on the PRR (in NJ). I didn't think Mustangs were built in the Eastern U.S. Appreciate any info on this subject. Dave Hopson ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/it_ffB/R_ZEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Evans" Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 18:45:07 -0700 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] '68 Mustangs westbound on PRR Was the train westbound or eastbound? Mark T. Evans Anaheim, CA ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/it_ffB/R_ZEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 22:10:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] '68 Mustangs westbound on PRR Those 1968 Mustangs are headed westbound on PRR mainline in Altoona. Dave ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/09Lw8C/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 23:12:29 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] '68 Mustangs westbound on PRR Dave Hopson asked: Where would the PRR pick up new '68 Mustangs? Pot Yard maybe? I only know of one Ford Plant on the PRR (in NJ). I didn't think Mustangs were built in the Eastern U.S.. 1965 - 1970 Mustangs were built in three plants: Dearborn MI Metuchen NJ (now Edison after town boundaries were redrawn) San Jose CA (Milpitas, now the Great Mall of the Bay Area) Since the train was westbound on the Pittsburgh Division, it looks like your autoracks came from New Jersey. Ben Hom Owner, 1968 Ford Mustang Coupe, Vintage Burgundy, 289-4V ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/it_ffB/R_ZEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 07:15:59 -0400 From: TWRimer@uss.com Subject: [PRR] Re: GP-9b I have a black & white photo of a GP-9b from the mid 60's taken at Phillipston, Pa. that shows the porthole windows to be the same color as the body of the locomotive. I've seen these b units at Pitcairn, too, but have never seen one with brass or chrome window frames. Tom Rimer twrimer@uss.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:36:09 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] The Bells of PRR Steam --part1_17b.c769c35.2a811cb9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Claus & List, The depression appears to be the era when the highly polished locomotives disappeared. Photos prior to this era usually show light colored (polished) bells, whistles, headlamp rims, rods and such. After the depression, especially during WWII, the light colored accessories are now dark colored. Assume the cost of labor, lack of capitol and changes in management philosophy reduced maintenance routines to the essentials. Only the passenger fleets, "specials", and back-shopped locos appeared after that time with the brass polished. A very noteable example of this is the competition between the Pennsylvania RR and the Reading RR for the Philadelphia/Camden to the New Jersey shore resorts business. Once the depression hit, both roads quickly lost a lot of the polish on their trains and it was totally gone within a year of their forced marriage into the Pennnsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines. Evan Leisey --part1_17b.c769c35.2a811cb9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Claus & List,

  The depression appears to be the era when the highly polished locomotives disappeared.   Photos prior to this era usually show light colored (polished) bells, whistles, headlamp rims, rods and such.  After the depression, especially during WWII,  the light colored accessories are now dark colored.   Assume the cost of labor, lack of capitol and changes in management philosophy reduced maintenance routines to the essentials.

 Only the passenger fleets, "specials", and back-shopped locos appeared after that time with the brass polished.

  A very noteable example of this is the competition between the Pennsylvania RR and the Reading RR for the Philadelphia/Camden to the New Jersey shore resorts business.  Once the depression hit,  both roads quickly lost a lot of the polish on their trains and it was totally gone within a year of their forced marriage into the Pennnsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines.

 Evan Leisey --part1_17b.c769c35.2a811cb9_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] The Bells of PRR Steam Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:37:06 -0400 Hi Claus, My weathering techniques dictate I start with an "out of the shop" paint job and then weather from there. (just like the real thing). That means I start with a shiney brass bell. Then in the course of weathering, the bell accumulates road dirt and soot (just like the real thing). The final result is a brass bell considerably dulled and streaked. Upon close examination you can see the brass through the weathering but the overall dulling effect closely duplicates what you notice in the photographs. Hope this helps. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Claus Schlund [mailto:schlund@cwnet.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 12:03 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] The Bells of PRR Steam Hi, I've always painted the bells on my PRR steam models with brass paint, on the assumption that the prototype bells were regularly polished. And if one looks in the PRRT&HS painting guide pamphlet published many years ago, one learns that in the late 1920's instructions to loco crews did specifically say that the bells were to be polished daily. However, while looking thru the color photos in "The Many Faces of the Pennsy K4" I noticed that the bells in these color photos all seemed to be black, or really dark-colored in any case. Now the color photos are all from the 1950's and I thought that perhaps the bells were not polished any more by that late date. So I looked thru some older b&w photos, looking to see if the bells appeared to be as dark as the rest of the loco, or if they were lighter than the loco. Well, it seems that in most b&w photos, the bells appear equally as dark as the rest of the loco. In some b&w pics, the bells do appear to be significantly lighter in color, but in many, maybe even in most, they appear to be relatively dark. So, I'm left to wonder, what colors are other modelers using to paint their PRR steam loco bells? My era is 1929, and I'm sure this may affect things since loco maintenance changed over the course of time. Also, wether a loco was used in freight or passenger service may have some impact as well. I'm really not looking for the definitive answer, as there probably isn't one - just fishing for some "paint opinions" from others... - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. **************************************************************************** This e-mail and any attachment may contain information that is proprietary, privileged, confidential or subject to copyright belonging to Conectiv or its subsidiaries (Conectiv). This e-mail is intended solely for the use of the person to which it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, copying or other action taken in relation to the contents of and attachments to this e-mail is prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and permanently delete the original and any copy of this e-mail and any printout. Conectiv policy expressly prohibits employees from making Defamatory or offensive statements and infringing any copyright or any other legal right by email communications. Conectiv will not accept any liability in respect of such communications. The employee responsible will be personally liable for any damages or other liability so arising. **************************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 05:54:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Andrews Subject: [PRR] Chartiers branch Jim, I hope you had the opportunity to take one of last weekend's trips on the Ohio Central's line from Carnegie PA to Washington PA. Saturday's trip was a sellout and everything went extremely well. I was able to get a few pictures but I don't expect too much from them since they were taken from inside the train. I was surprised to see that the Canonsburg station is still standing. It's apparently being used for some sort of commercial activity and appears to be in pretty good shape. Donaldson Supply is still there and looks about as it did in 1950 only without the rail service. When the pictures come back, I'll contact you offline if any seem worthwhile. Joe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] FA-@/FB-2 project Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:52:19 -0500 I think the antennas you are talking about were made by ALCO, who imported brass diesels in the 1970s. They retiled for about $2.00 for about a dozen masts. I think they were also available in plastic. -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 9:29 AM To: Kris Kollar Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] FA-@/FB-2 project Kris, I put trainfone antennae on FAs some years ago. For the antenna extensions which run down the side I used the antenna posts with the bolted square top. I forget who made these (Carey?), but I believe they are the type used on GP30s. I used only the top part with the post cut off. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Kris Kollar wrote: > While on vacation I started my next project of PRR-izing a Proto 2000 FA2/B2 > set of locomotives. I'm hoping someone can lead me to some clear reference > photos of the tops of these beauties. Specifically I'm looking for shots of > the exhaust stack circa 1955/56. If there are differences in their later > years can someone explain them? Has any one had luck with the train phone > stanchions that come down the front side of the A-unit? Are they made as an > after market detail item? I was hoping they'd be in the Cal Scale kit but > they were not. Also can anyone point me to the a good photo of how the > train phone antennae comes down the back of the A unit? > > Thanks for all the help you've given in the past and I hope can provide > again this time! > > Kris > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] The Bells of PRR Steam Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:58:58 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C23D2F.E224E060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the book Setup Running, there is mention that the transition from locos with the brass polished happened when the railroad went from having each loco assigned to a particular engineer to having the locos pooled among the engineers... Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 8:36 AM To: schlund@cwnet.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] The Bells of PRR Steam Claus & List, The depression appears to be the era when the highly polished locomotives disappeared. Photos prior to this era usually show light colored (polished) bells, whistles, headlamp rims, rods and such. After the depression, especially during WWII, the light colored accessories are now dark colored. Assume the cost of labor, lack of capitol and changes in management philosophy reduced maintenance routines to the essentials. Only the passenger fleets, "specials", and back-shopped locos appeared after that time with the brass polished. A very noteable example of this is the competition between the Pennsylvania RR and the Reading RR for the Philadelphia/Camden to the New Jersey shore resorts business. Once the depression hit, both roads quickly lost a lot of the polish on their trains and it was totally gone within a year of their forced marriage into the Pennnsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines. Evan Leisey ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C23D2F.E224E060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In the=20 book Setup Running, there is mention that the transition from locos with = the=20 brass polished happened when the railroad went
from=20 having each loco assigned to a particular engineer to having the locos = pooled=20 among the engineers...
 
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of = RDG2124@aol.com
Sent:=20 Tuesday, August 06, 2002 8:36 AM
To: schlund@cwnet.com;=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] The Bells of PRR=20 Steam

Claus &=20 List,

  The depression appears to be the era when = the highly=20 polished locomotives disappeared.   Photos prior to this era = usually=20 show light colored (polished) bells, whistles, headlamp rims, rods and = such.=20  After the depression, especially during WWII,  the light = colored=20 accessories are now dark colored.   Assume the cost of = labor, lack=20 of capitol and changes in management philosophy reduced maintenance = routines=20 to the essentials.

 Only the passenger fleets, = "specials", and=20 back-shopped locos appeared after that time with the brass polished.=20

  A very noteable example of this is the competition = between=20 the Pennsylvania RR and the Reading RR for the Philadelphia/Camden to = the New=20 Jersey shore resorts business.  Once the depression hit, =  both roads=20 quickly lost a lot of the polish on their trains and it was totally = gone=20 within a year of their forced marriage into the Pennnsylvania-Reading = Seashore=20 Lines.

 Evan Leisey = ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01C23D2F.E224E060-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Chartiers branch Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:20:13 -0500 Joe, A fellow PRR buff and I took the Sunday train. We railfanned the Pitssburgh, Fort Wayne, and Chicago mainline from Chicago to Pittsburgh. There are a surprising number of stations still intact, and there are many (colored)position lights located at some of the junctions along the line. We also visited Crestline. It was my buddy's first trip to the roundhouse, my third in about 5 years. Each time the place looks the much worser for wear. My interest on the Chartiers branch is that I grew up near it. As you probably know, next week's single trip on the Chartiers branch is sold out. Marvin L. Cadwell -----Original Message----- From: Joseph Andrews [mailto:joeandrews1@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:54 AM To: Jim Cullen; PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Chartiers branch Jim, I hope you had the opportunity to take one of last weekend's trips on the Ohio Central's line from Carnegie PA to Washington PA. Saturday's trip was a sellout and everything went extremely well. I was able to get a few pictures but I don't expect too much from them since they were taken from inside the train. I was surprised to see that the Canonsburg station is still standing. It's apparently being used for some sort of commercial activity and appears to be in pretty good shape. Donaldson Supply is still there and looks about as it did in 1950 only without the rail service. When the pictures come back, I'll contact you offline if any seem worthwhile. Joe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Trichtinger" Subject: RE: [PRR] Chartiers Branch Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 15:15:35 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Andrews" > I > was surprised to see that the Canonsburg station is > still standing. It's apparently being used for some > sort of commercial activity and appears to be in > pretty good shape. It's the Sons of Italy Social Hall. The Bridgeville and Boyce stations are also standing, Bridgeville as the public library, and Boyce as the Boyce Station Shops. The Bridgeville freight station is part of Silhol Lumber & Supply. The trip was great. I was particularly impressed by the attitude of the Ohio Central people, both in their knowledge of and respect for the PRR heritage of the line, and in their regard for the businesses along the route: they see them *all* as potential customers. Peace Kevin T. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 15:26:15 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Anyone Using Computer Dispatcher Pro? From: Jerry Britton Is there anyone on the list using Computer Dispatcher Pro from KAM Industries on their layout? I'd like to get in touch with other users and/or prospective users. Please reply off-list. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 16:58:00 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GP-9b --------------Boundary-00=_OWWFQL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is it possible guys, these "porthole" windows on the GP9 B were painted steel, with a rubber circular seal? Jim=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: TWRimer@uss.com=0D Date: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:14:34 AM=0D To: PRR-Talk=0D Subject: [PRR] Re: GP-9b=0D =0D I have a black & white photo of a GP-9b from the mid 60's taken=0D at Phillipston, Pa. that shows the porthole windows to be the=0D same color as the body of the locomotive. I've seen these=0D b units at Pitcairn, too, but have never seen one with brass or=0D chrome window frames.=0D =0D Tom Rimer=0D twrimer@uss.com=0D =0D =0D -----------------------------------------------------------------------=0D For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=0D =0D =2E --------------Boundary-00=_OWWFQL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0A
Is it possible guys, these "porthole" windows on the GP9 B wer= e=20 painted steel, with a rubber circular seal?   Jim
 
-------Original Message-------<= /I>
 
From: TWRimer@uss.com
Date: Tuesda= y, August=20 06, 2002 7:14:34 AM
To: PRR-Talk
Subject: [PR= R] Re:=20 GP-9b
 
I have a black & white photo of a GP-9b from t= he mid=20 60's taken
at Phillipston, Pa. that shows the porthole windows t= o be=20 the
same color as the body of the locomotive. I've seen theseb=20 units at Pitcairn, too, but have never seen one with brass or
ch= rome=20 window frames.

Tom Rimer
twrimer@uss.com


----= -------------------------------------------------------------------
Fo= r=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

.<= /TD>
=09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09
--------------Boundary-00=_OWWFQL80000000000000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: GP-9b Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 21:28:37 +0000 I am almost certian they were aluminum of some form when built. Subsequent painting may have resulted in just the glass being masked. I come to this conclusion based on current engine window frames from EMD which could be bad logic. The pictures sure look like some or all of the original engines had a large ring around the windows that is defnitely not DGLE. It may even have been romoved as cosmetic in rebuilds. The black and white pictures in Pennsy Power 2 sure look like this is the case. I was hoping for a definitive answer so I guess I'll just leave my GP9B with a DGLE window frame for now. > Is it possible guys, these "porthole" windows on the GP9 B were painted > steel, with a rubber circular seal? Jim > > > > -------Original Message------- > > > > From: TWRimer@uss.com > > Date: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:14:34 AM > > To: PRR-Talk > > Subject: [PRR] Re: GP-9b > > > > I have a black & white photo of a GP-9b from the mid 60's taken > > at Phillipston, Pa. that shows the porthole windows to be the > > same color as the body of the locomotive. I've seen these > > b units at Pitcairn, too, but have never seen one with brass or > > chrome window frames. > > > > Tom Rimer > > twrimer@uss.com > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 21:35:31 -0400 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: GP-9b FWIW: As I recall, the GP9b had two porthole windows, one on each side of the locomotve. One window was fixed the other opened out (like a ship's porthole), to allow the hostler visability when operating the unit with hostler's controls. These controls were as I recall on the right side of the unit where the engineer's control stand would be, but consisted of an independent brake, and cutout cock, a reverser and throttle. This may explain the apparent discrepancy in your photos. Incidently, "b" units had hostler controls to allow independent movement of the b unit within engine house or shop territory. Joe Witcofsky -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of TWRimer@uss.com Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:16 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Re: GP-9b I have a black & white photo of a GP-9b from the mid 60's taken at Phillipston, Pa. that shows the porthole windows to be the same color as the body of the locomotive. I've seen these b units at Pitcairn, too, but have never seen one with brass or chrome window frames. Tom Rimer twrimer@uss.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 12:49:26 +0200 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] Metrics (was: Wire & Steel Screw Gauges) Sorry to refer back to a mail that is a week old, but I was out of town, and that statment asks for correction: The DIN is the German Standards Institute and was founded in 1917 (thus a legacy of WW 1 and Kaiser Bill, not of Hitler). DIN did not invent SI or metric units, it just made them mandatory for use in German industry, long before Hitler´s time. The real driving force was the the war, as it asked for unification of the standards and measurements in the individual German dukedomes and kingdoms to facilitate wartime production. There are still some non-SI units in common usage here in Europe, as the Horse Power (car manufacturers have to state kW, but they all add the HP because costumers are used to it). With my American colleagues in science, discussion works usually quite well, because both side are used to convert units back and forth. Btw., scientific conferences can have some nice advantages in meeting people from all over the world. I remember a conference near Atlantic City NJ in 1998, when I met a local conference participant who was Pennsy fan. After some talk, he used a prolonged coffee break to take me by his car to a hobby shop in the vicinity where I could do my purchases, and I left US with a nice Proto 2000 GP9 in PRR-colours and some other stuff. This is the spririt I learned to love in you rail nuts, and I am grateful for it! Keep it that way! Burkhard Sanner VVA249@aol.com schrieb: > In a message dated 7/31/02 9:45:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > billd@gci-net.com writes: > > << I was totally unaware that the French (who invented the SI system) lost > the war. >> > > They did surrender to the Germans - and the current Metric "DIN" standards > are a legacy of Hitler, not Napolean. > > Dick > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 12:56:52 +0200 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: [PRR] ice for reefers and ice transport on railroads Dear list, speaking of measurement units, I was reminded in another topic: A rather unique US-unit is the refrigeration ton (RT), which once was very easy to understand, as long as ice was used dor cooling. It is the power a ton of ice (short, long, imperial or whatever ton, I don´t know), can deliver over one hour. It is still in use widely in the US HVAC-business, and equals 3.52 kW in cooling capacity. Now what was the average ice load of a reefer? What was the quality of insulation, and thus the required cooling load? Was the problem solved by calculation and engineering, or rather by experience, as it controls the time intervals for re-icing? And can somebody tell what is the cooling power of a typical mechanical reefer? I did read of railroads heavily involved in the business to hauling ice blocks from mountain lakes to the ice houses of breweries, dairy industry, etc. Examples are the Kettle River Valley railroad in BC, or the Swiss Jura-Simplon railroad in the Vallée du Joux. Ice harvesting and transport was a major business for them in the early 20th century. Did such business exist on the PRR too, e.g. from some higher elevation in the Appalachians? From where did the relevant industry in New York, Philly and Baltimore get the ice before mechanical refrigeration? And were was the ice for the reefer icing facilities on PRR from? Maybe someone can direct me to articles or a book, or just answer some of the questions. Thinking of ice cubes on a hot summer day, Burkhard Sanner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 07:02:35 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Metric system dates from 19th century In a message dated 8/7/2002 6:48:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Burkhard.Sanner@geolo.uni-giessen.de writes: << DIN did not invent SI or metric units >> The system was actually invented by the French at the turn of the 18th/19th century. It has been in use in the US since the 1850s, when the US Congress enacted a law that made the metric system an official, though alternate, system of measurement. For example, the system is discussed in the army ordnance manuals issued in the 1860s during the Civil War. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Chicago Chapter Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:52:54 +0000 Just in case there is someone who hasn't sent me an e mail regarding starting or beimg part of a Chicago chapter I would like to hear from you off list please. We should be having our first meeting sometime in the next 8-12 weeks to sign a charter and start to establish an agenda, location, etc. Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 12:56:12 EDT Subject: [PRR] Builders Plates Theft --part1_9.2c2a5639.2a82ab2c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A mid-western skunk(s) was/were at work recently. A collection of locomotive builders plates was recently stolened from the home of the collector's widow. The plates were obviously the object of the theft as nothing else in the house was touched. The plates are mostly, if not all, from Pennsylvania RR engines. Just learned of this at last night's round-robin work session and the individual relating the theft did not have the specifics with him. He will be passing the specifics on and they will be posted as soon as possible. Thank you for taking the time to read this off-subject message. Evan Leisey --part1_9.2c2a5639.2a82ab2c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  A mid-western skunk(s) was/were at work recently.

  A collection of locomotive builders plates was recently stolened from the home of the collector's widow.  The plates were obviously the object of the theft as nothing else in the house was touched.   The plates are mostly, if not all,  from Pennsylvania RR engines.  

 Just learned of this at last night's round-robin work session and the individual relating the theft did not have the specifics with him.  He will be passing the specifics on and they will be posted as soon as possible.

 Thank you for taking the time to read this off-subject message.

 Evan Leisey
  --part1_9.2c2a5639.2a82ab2c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 14:59:37 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Builders Plates Theft --part1_9a.29af304d.2a82c819_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If I were one of the members of the model railroad club in Altoona, who's name escapes me at the moment, I would take great interest in this. If those guys don't have a monitored alarm system they need one. Todd --part1_9a.29af304d.2a82c819_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If I were one of the members of the model railroad club in Altoona, who's name escapes me at the moment, I would take great interest in this. If those guys don't have a monitored alarm system they need one. Todd --part1_9a.29af304d.2a82c819_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Ex PRR coaches Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 19:53:46 +0000 There is an article on the Trains.com web site about the Panama Railroad. A second URL at the bottom of the article takes you to a listing of equipment being operated there. Nearly all of the coaches are ex PRR Budd coaches built in the early 50's that were leased from Amtrak. There is a complete list of the passenger equipment being utilzed. N. Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Builders Plates Theft Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 17:41:56 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C23E39.B931C5A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Theft is always an issue. The Reading Society of Model Engineers last year had their bus (used to store their modular layout) broken into and hundreds of cars were stolen. Then, they saw the cars popping up at the same model shows the club set up and was displaying the layout! Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of CENTGA@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 3:00 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Builders Plates Theft If I were one of the members of the model railroad club in Altoona, who's name escapes me at the moment, I would take great interest in this. If those guys don't have a monitored alarm system they need one. Todd ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C23E39.B931C5A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Theft=20 is always an issue.  The Reading Society of Model Engineers last = year had=20 their bus (used to store their modular layout) broken into and hundreds = of cars=20 were stolen. Then, they saw the cars popping up at the same model shows = the club=20 set up and was displaying the layout!
 
 
Greg=20 V
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of = CENTGA@aol.com
Sent:=20 Wednesday, August 07, 2002 3:00 PM
To:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Builders Plates=20 Theft

If I were=20 one of the members of the model railroad club in Altoona, who's name = escapes=20 me at the moment, I would take great interest in this. If those guys = don't=20 have a monitored alarm system they need one. Todd=20
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C23E39.B931C5A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: [PRR] PRR and RDG Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 01:36:31 -0400 For those who like the outdoors, I definitely suggest taking a leisure bike ride or walk on 2 trails that utilize existing railroad roadbeds. Yesterday I rode the Schuylkill River trail from Valley Forge Park to Oaks, then took the Perkiomen Trail from Oaks to Collegeville. The Schuylkill River trail's best asset is using the old stone arch bridge across the Perkiomen Creek along the old PRR secondary just before it reached the Goodrich Tire Plant. Then, along the Perkiomen Creek on the old RDG Perkiomen Branch. Goto traillink.com and you can search for a rail trial in your area. http://www.montcopa.org/parks/perkiomentrail/about_the_trail.htm The rails to trails organization is a great way to preserve old defunct rail lines include the numerous PRR rail lines no longer used. Greg V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 10:06:41 -0400 Subject: [PRR] When Normal Turnout Position is Thrown From: Jerry Britton Got a modeling question and I wonder how the prototype did it... I've got am 18 track staging yard that dwindles to a typical four track Pennsy main line. Right at the exit of staging is a full interlocking (12 turnouts) so any train can enter/exit any staging track to/from any main line track. Trains will always pass at low speed. To aid in the design and flow of the yard ladders, two of the turnouts at the yard end of the interlocking are oriented at an angle. If a train is on, let's say, the fourth ladder track and they need to stay on track four for the main, the first turnout they come to is actually "thrown" to maintain the normal route. The "closed" position would send them to track three. In each of the two cases involved, the turnouts are in pairs where one is "thrown" and one is "closed" to allow the crossover. My question is, when a normal position is "thrown", how would this be noted on a track chart (or control panel!)? You can view the track schematic online at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/images/example.gif The turnouts in question are parts of pairs 009 and 010. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 00:51:42 EDT Subject: [PRR] On the Lighter Side --part1_50.fa90d76.2a84a45e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spoke with a friend in the U.P. bridge engineering dept. today. I forget the location but watch for an article on dragging the rear of a unit coal train -- on its side for two miles. This happened on the U.P. and is a testament to the structural integrity of the tight-lock rotary couplers. Still waiting to hear what caused the train to stop, air line parted, crew saw the derailment or a radio call? Just when you think you heard it all! Evan Leisey --part1_50.fa90d76.2a84a45e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Spoke with a friend in the U.P. bridge engineering dept. today.  I forget the location but watch for an article on dragging the rear of a unit coal train -- on its side for two miles.

 This happened on the U.P. and is a testament to the structural integrity of the tight-lock rotary couplers.  Still waiting to hear what caused the train to stop,  air line parted, crew saw the derailment or a radio call?   Just when you think you heard it all!

Evan Leisey    --part1_50.fa90d76.2a84a45e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 00:56:56 EDT Subject: [PRR] Stolened Number Plates --part1_3d.226df77a.2a84a598_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, Believe the forwarded info. did not make it through. The items are as follows: Stolen PRR nbr plates: 8220-Round 2945-Round 4270-Round 650-Round 1071-Round 4471-Round 4305-Round 4245-Round 4237-Round 3315-Rectangular Cast Iron Whistle Board, probably in Keystone Shape Cast iron sign, white with black trim and lettering, "Look Out for the Locomotive" Mile post marker for St.L and Chicago, cloverleaf shaped, with 3 leaves, perhaps 289 is mileage on one side. Evan Leisey --part1_3d.226df77a.2a84a598_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List,

  Believe the forwarded info. did not make it through.   The items are as follows:

   Stolen PRR nbr plates:

           8220-Round
           2945-Round
           4270-Round
             650-Round
           1071-Round
           4471-Round
           4305-Round
           4245-Round
           4237-Round
           3315-Rectangular

Cast Iron Whistle Board, probably in Keystone Shape
Cast iron sign, white with black trim and lettering, "Look Out for the
Locomotive"
Mile post marker for St.L and Chicago, cloverleaf shaped, with 3 leaves,
perhaps 289 is mileage on one side.


Evan Leisey
--part1_3d.226df77a.2a84a598_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 07:53:49 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Re: When Normal Turnout Position is Thrown Jerry, As far as I know the PRR didn't indicate the normal route on track charts or diagrams. Rule 104 states (in part) "Non-interlocked switches and derails connected with main or secondary track are in the normal position when lined for movement on the main or secondary track involved, unless otherwise specified in the timetable." Then when you go to the ETT Special Instruction 1104 (rule number + 1000) one finds a listing by division of the normal position for movements where it varies from the rule. Perhaps on your control panel or model board you might want to show it as follows - When normal is for straight move --------------------------- ---\ \ \ \ When normal is for diverging move \ ------------\ -------------- \ \ (not exactly graphically correct but you should get the idea) The positions of the switch levers (toggle) for each turnout should be annotated "N" and "R" and when any turnout is lined for a diverging move, which is normal it would be in the "N" position, likewise when in the straight position for a non-diverging move it would be in the "R" position. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:17:06 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: When Normal Turnout Position is Thrown Jerry, The way the prototype MAY do it, is that a switch has two positions, stated two different ways: 1. Normal and Reverse. Normal shows the Green or white target, and Reverse shows a yellow or red target. Normal and Reverse are whichever position the railroad defines them. Normal is the way the switch is to be kept when not in use. Usually locked with a switch padlock, it is not unheard of for the padlock chain to be short enough that the switch cannot be locked in the Reverse position, if the switch stand design allows this, such as a low flopover lever type stand that has each handle latch on a separate switch timber. 2. Straight and Diverging. Usually Normal and straight are the same position. On a main track a diverging position that requires a speed reduction would be well documented in the Timetable. In a yard, with the attendant slow speeds, it should not be a big deal. One example of a diverging normal I can give existed in the Hyannis yard where a yard track connecting to the main track had a second switch extending to a short stub track. The two switches made a typical crossover configuration, and the switch connecting the stub track indicated Normal when lined for the main (it has since received a new banner and shows Reverse to the main, but had no banner for a few years and the person doing the installation was not around previously. It would not help things to change it now; the switch is effectively never used. Steve Bartlett Subject: From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 10:06:41 -0400 Got a modeling question and I wonder how the prototype did it... ......... In each of the two cases involved, the turnouts are in pairs where one is "thrown" and one is "closed" to allow the crossover. My question is, when a normal position is "thrown", how would this be noted on a track chart (or control panel!)? ....... Jerry Britton, SPF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] On the Lighter Side Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 08:24:28 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C23F7E.2D7A1580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit That is what happens when you get rid of a caboose and replace it with a flashing light. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 12:52 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; Reading-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] On the Lighter Side Spoke with a friend in the U.P. bridge engineering dept. today. I forget the location but watch for an article on dragging the rear of a unit coal train -- on its side for two miles. This happened on the U.P. and is a testament to the structural integrity of the tight-lock rotary couplers. Still waiting to hear what caused the train to stop, air line parted, crew saw the derailment or a radio call? Just when you think you heard it all! Evan Leisey ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C23F7E.2D7A1580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
That=20 is what happens when you get rid of a caboose and replace it with a = flashing=20 light.
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of = RDG2124@aol.com
Sent:=20 Friday, August 09, 2002 12:52 AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com;=20 Reading-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] On the Lighter=20 Side

Spoke with a=20 friend in the U.P. bridge engineering dept. today.  I forget the = location=20 but watch for an article on dragging the rear of a unit coal train -- = on its=20 side for two miles.

 This happened on the U.P. and is a = testament=20 to the structural integrity of the tight-lock rotary couplers. =  Still=20 waiting to hear what caused the train to stop,  air line parted, = crew saw=20 the derailment or a radio call?   Just when you think you = heard it=20 all!

Evan Leisey    =
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C23F7E.2D7A1580-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "David J. Vinci" Subject: Re: [PRR] On the Lighter Side Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 09:32:23 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C23F87.AA9C4CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ah, yes, the good old days "when steam was king and the rail were = shiney"... when you didn't need a satillite-link to talk to the engineer = from the cabin car.... when you could see one end of the train from the = other... this incident makes you wonder what would have happened to the crew if = there had been a cabin... gettin' dragged for two miles. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr.=20 To: RDG2124@aol.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; Reading-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 8:24 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] On the Lighter Side That is what happens when you get rid of a caboose and replace it with = a flashing light. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of = RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 12:52 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; Reading-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] On the Lighter Side Spoke with a friend in the U.P. bridge engineering dept. today. I = forget the location but watch for an article on dragging the rear of a = unit coal train -- on its side for two miles.=20 This happened on the U.P. and is a testament to the structural = integrity of the tight-lock rotary couplers. Still waiting to hear what = caused the train to stop, air line parted, crew saw the derailment or a = radio call? Just when you think you heard it all!=20 Evan Leisey =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C23F87.AA9C4CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ah, yes, the good old days = "when steam=20 was king and the rail were shiney"... when you didn't need a = satillite-link to=20 talk to the engineer from the cabin car.... when you could see one end = of the=20 train from the other...
this incident makes you = wonder what would=20 have happened to the crew if there had been a cabin... gettin' dragged = for two=20 miles.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Gregory=20 Vlassopoulos, Jr.
To: RDG2124@aol.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; Reading-Talk@dsop.com
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 = 8:24=20 AM
Subject: RE: [PRR] On the = Lighter=20 Side

That=20 is what happens when you get rid of a caboose and replace it with a = flashing=20 light.
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RDG2124@aol.com
Sent: = Friday,=20 August 09, 2002 12:52 AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; Reading-Talk@dsop.com
Sub= ject:=20 [PRR] On the Lighter Side

Spoke with a friend in the = U.P. bridge=20 engineering dept. today.  I forget the location but watch for = an=20 article on dragging the rear of a unit coal train -- on its side for = two=20 miles.

 This happened on the U.P. and is a testament to = the=20 structural integrity of the tight-lock rotary couplers.  Still = waiting=20 to hear what caused the train to stop,  air line parted, crew = saw the=20 derailment or a radio call?   Just when you think you = heard it=20 all!

Evan Leisey   =20
------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C23F87.AA9C4CA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] On the Lighter Side Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 09:51:08 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C23F8A.490E35E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank God cabin cars didn't make it to the tight-lock rotary coupler era. Then again, cabins would not have had this type of coupler installed in the first place. Come to think, I am surprised railroads have not come up with a continuous evaluating system for every axle on a 10 second repeated equipment failure search. Every 10 seconds, if an axle is not rotating the way it should or if it is not in the correct geometric plane with the rails, a signal goes off. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: David J. Vinci [mailto:vinci4@net-link.net] Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 9:32 AM To: Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr.; RDG2124@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; Reading-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] On the Lighter Side Ah, yes, the good old days "when steam was king and the rail were shiney"... when you didn't need a satillite-link to talk to the engineer from the cabin car.... when you could see one end of the train from the other... this incident makes you wonder what would have happened to the crew if there had been a cabin... gettin' dragged for two miles. ----- Original Message ----- From: Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr. To: RDG2124@aol.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; Reading-Talk@dsop.com Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 8:24 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] On the Lighter Side That is what happens when you get rid of a caboose and replace it with a flashing light. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RDG2124@aol.com Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 12:52 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; Reading-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] On the Lighter Side Spoke with a friend in the U.P. bridge engineering dept. today. I forget the location but watch for an article on dragging the rear of a unit coal train -- on its side for two miles. This happened on the U.P. and is a testament to the structural integrity of the tight-lock rotary couplers. Still waiting to hear what caused the train to stop, air line parted, crew saw the derailment or a radio call? Just when you think you heard it all! Evan Leisey ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C23F8A.490E35E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank=20 God cabin cars didn't make it to the tight-lock rotary coupler era. =  Then=20 again, cabins would not have had this type of coupler installed in the = first=20 place.  Come to think, I am surprised railroads have not come up = with a=20 continuous evaluating system for every axle on a 10 second repeated = equipment=20 failure search.  Every 10 seconds, if an axle is not rotating the = way it=20 should or if it is not in the correct geometric plane with the rails, a = signal=20 goes off. 
 
Greg=20 V
-----Original Message-----
From: David J. Vinci=20 [mailto:vinci4@net-link.net]
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 = 9:32=20 AM
To: Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr.; RDG2124@aol.com;=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com; Reading-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] = On the=20 Lighter Side

Ah, yes, the good old days = "when steam=20 was king and the rail were shiney"... when you didn't need a = satillite-link to=20 talk to the engineer from the cabin car.... when you could see one end = of the=20 train from the other...
this incident makes you = wonder what=20 would have happened to the crew if there had been a cabin... gettin' = dragged=20 for two miles.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Gregory=20 Vlassopoulos, Jr.
To: RDG2124@aol.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; Reading-Talk@dsop.com =
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 = 8:24=20 AM
Subject: RE: [PRR] On the = Lighter=20 Side

That is what happens when you get rid of a caboose and = replace it=20 with a flashing light.
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of RDG2124@aol.com
Sent: = Friday,=20 August 09, 2002 12:52 AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; Reading-Talk@dsop.com
Sub= ject:=20 [PRR] On the Lighter Side

Spoke with a friend in the = U.P. bridge=20 engineering dept. today.  I forget the location but watch for = an=20 article on dragging the rear of a unit coal train -- on its side = for two=20 miles.

 This happened on the U.P. and is a testament = to the=20 structural integrity of the tight-lock rotary couplers. =  Still=20 waiting to hear what caused the train to stop,  air line = parted, crew=20 saw the derailment or a radio call?   Just when you = think you=20 heard it all!

Evan Leisey   =20
------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C23F8A.490E35E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 16:52:08 -0400 Subject: [PRR] VO1000 in N Scale Announced by Atlas - No PRR!!! From: Jerry Britton Today Atlas announced the VO1000 in N scale. But they did not announce it in a PRR flavor!!! I am trying to convince Atlas to run it in Pennsy. The PRR had eight of these units, purchased in 1945. I don't care who you would purchase it from, but please let me know off-list if you would be interested (and how many) so I have some ammo to send back to Atlas. The announcement is at http://www.atlasrr.com/highlights/vo1000.asp Thanks. P.S. Does anyone have assignment info? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: STEVEGG1@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 17:21:04 EDT Subject: [PRR] NH FL-9 at Juniata shops --part1_28.2add59fd.2a858c40_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings all, Just got back from a great vacation in Altoona. If anyone is there this weekend you might want to check out the east end of the Juniata shops. Wednesday my wife and I spotted a McGinnis painted FL-9 2016 being moved. On thursday it was sitting near the Sheetz toward the east end of the buildings. Funny, prior to spotting it, I joked with my wife "guess it is a safe bet we won't see E units here". Well, I'll settle for F's!! Anyone know why it is there? Also, the curve has more photo windows now (as compared to last year). I suggest bringing a zoom (around 100) for shooting the west bound trains going through the signal bridge. Some nice shots of it from the park, but a small window. Steve Panopoulos --part1_28.2add59fd.2a858c40_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings all,
Just got back from a great vacation in Altoona. If anyone is there this weekend you might want to check out the east end of the Juniata shops. Wednesday my wife and I spotted a McGinnis painted FL-9 2016 being moved. On thursday it was sitting near the Sheetz toward the east end of the buildings. Funny, prior to spotting it, I joked with my wife "guess it is a safe bet we won't see E units here". Well, I'll settle for F's!! Anyone know why it is there?
Also, the curve has more photo windows now (as compared to last year). I suggest bringing a zoom (around 100) for shooting the west bound trains going through the signal bridge. Some nice shots of it from the park, but a small window.
Steve Panopoulos --part1_28.2add59fd.2a858c40_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: [PRR] Re: Coal sizes Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 19:22:24 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C23FDA.174C1E00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With all this talk about coaling wharfs, can someone provide me with the = names and sizes of coal?? As an example, someone told me that "Egg" = coal was roughly fist size and stoker coal was about the diameter of a = 50 cent piece. Or where can I get this info. Thanks All the best to you and yours = Weldon ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C23FDA.174C1E00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
With all this talk = about coaling=20 wharfs, can someone provide me with the names and sizes of coal??  = As an=20 example, someone told me that "Egg" coal was roughly fist size and = stoker coal=20 was about the diameter of a 50 cent piece.
 
Or where can I get this = info.
 
Thanks         &nbs= p;    =20 All the best to you and=20 yours           &n= bsp;    =20 Weldon
------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C23FDA.174C1E00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 19:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] NH FL-9 at Juniata shops All of the FL-9s are to be retired soon and most are for sale. Maybe she was there for a tune up before going to a private owner. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 19:38:10 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] NH FL-9 at Juniata shops Greetings to Steve and the List: Can't answer what it is doing in Altoona, but I saw it arriving in that area when I was at Horseshoe Curve on Monday evening. It was coupled in with the regular road power on an eastbound freight that was descending the mountain about 7:30 pm. Dan Cupper STEVEGG1@aol.com wrote: > > Greetings all, > Just got back from a great vacation in Altoona. If anyone is there > this weekend you might want to check out the east end of the Juniata > shops. Wednesday my wife and I spotted a McGinnis painted FL-9 2016 > being moved. On thursday it was sitting near the Sheetz toward the > east end of the buildings. Funny, prior to spotting it, I joked with > my wife "guess it is a safe bet we won't see E units here". Well, I'll > settle for F's!! Anyone know why it is there? > Also, the curve has more photo windows now (as compared to last year). > I suggest bringing a zoom (around 100) for shooting the west bound > trains going through the signal bridge. Some nice shots of it from the > park, but a small window. > Steve Panopoulos ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 19:35:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Alco C425 coming soon from Atlas. Greetings List, Good News: Those who model late PRR diesel era will be glad to hear that Atlas has annouced the Alco C425(phase 1) will be out in the Fall. Bad News: No PRR painted units. But the Penn Central units are exPRR so you can paint the phase 1 undecorated units to PRR. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 19:50:14 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] On the Lighter Side Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr. wrote: > Thank God cabin cars didn't make it to the tight-lock rotary coupler > era. Then again, cabins would not have had this type of coupler > installed in the first place. Come to think, I am surprised railroads > have not come up with a continuous evaluating system for every axle on a > 10 second repeated equipment failure search. Every 10 seconds, if an > axle is not rotating the way it should or if it is not in the correct > geometric plane with the rails, a signal goes off. This was evaluated by the industry, some years back. Might be worth a rethink, now, with technoprogress. Specifically, on a rail car axle assembly, there are a number of bolts. One of these was to be replaced by a 'smart bolt', to be made of hi strength alloy, since it would now be _hollow_. Inside would be: temperature sensor battery transmitter popout antenna. (microwave region) In case of 'hot box' (they happen with roller bearings, too, tho less frequently), this would activate and 'phone home' (cab mounted receiver.). Dunno why not proceded with, Assume cost, reliability. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 21:30:53 -0400 From: Mike Calo Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Coal sizes I don't think this answers your question, but it may be PRR and it talks about the gradiation of coal... http://web.ulib.csuohio.edu/SpecColl/glihc/stereovw/sv13204.html Mike Calo Annapolis MD ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 21:40:38 EDT Subject: [PRR] Stolen PRR Number Plates --part1_5f.2b590c33.2a85c916_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lists, The e-mail I received listing the items for some reason will not forward and a copy sent in my posting apparently did not fly either. Here is the list: PRR Round number plates: 650 1071 2945 3315 4237 4245 4270 4305 4471 One cast iron whistle board, probably Keystone shaped. One cast iron sign with white background and black trim lettered, "Look Out for the Locomotive". Mile post marker from the St. Louis & Chicago, cloverleaf shaped with three leaves, believed to have 289 as the mileage on one side. One tought occurs from passing on this list. There are the words "believed" and "probably" used in the description. Apparently the widow has a list but it lacks a few pertinent details to fully describe some of these items. Thought: Do you have a current, adequately detailed list of your collection? If your household is like mine, you are the only one that knows what you have, if you can remember everything you've collected over the years. Evan Leisey --part1_5f.2b590c33.2a85c916_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lists,

  The e-mail I received listing the items for some reason will not forward and a copy sent in my posting apparently did not fly either.  

  Here is the list:

  PRR Round number plates:

  650
  1071
  2945
  3315
  4237
  4245
  4270
  4305
  4471

  One cast iron whistle board, probably Keystone shaped.

  One cast iron sign with white background and black trim lettered,  "Look Out for  
  the Locomotive".

  Mile post marker from the St. Louis & Chicago,  cloverleaf shaped with three
  leaves,  believed to have 289 as the mileage on one side.

    One tought occurs from passing on this list.  There are the words "believed" and "probably" used in the description.  Apparently the widow has a list but it lacks a few pertinent details to fully describe some of these items.   Thought:  Do you have a current, adequately detailed list of your collection?   If your household is like mine,  you are the only one that knows what you have, if you can remember everything you've collected over the years.  

    Evan Leisey   --part1_5f.2b590c33.2a85c916_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom Mahon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Stolen PRR Number Plates Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 22:05:35 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C23FF0.E3431340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evan, Re your last, I just started to catalogue my stuff in Access. I know = there are more things in the house, but I can't readily locate them. = That would cause all kinds of consternation for my family. I will be = adding a location block in my templates. Tom Mahon ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RDG2124@aol.com=20 To: PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; = Reading-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 9:40 PM Subject: [PRR] Stolen PRR Number Plates Lists,=20 The e-mail I received listing the items for some reason will not = forward and a copy sent in my posting apparently did not fly either. =20 Here is the list:=20 PRR Round number plates:=20 650=20 1071=20 2945=20 3315=20 4237=20 4245=20 4270=20 4305=20 4471=20 One cast iron whistle board, probably Keystone shaped.=20 One cast iron sign with white background and black trim lettered, = "Look Out for =20 the Locomotive".=20 Mile post marker from the St. Louis & Chicago, cloverleaf shaped = with three=20 leaves, believed to have 289 as the mileage on one side.=20 One tought occurs from passing on this list. There are the words = "believed" and "probably" used in the description. Apparently the widow = has a list but it lacks a few pertinent details to fully describe some = of these items. Thought: Do you have a current, adequately detailed = list of your collection? If your household is like mine, you are the = only one that knows what you have, if you can remember everything you've = collected over the years. =20 Evan Leisey =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C23FF0.E3431340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Evan,
 
Re your last, I just started to = catalogue my stuff=20 in Access. I know there are more things in the house, but I can't = readily locate=20 them. That would cause all kinds of consternation for my family. I will = be=20 adding a location block in my templates.
 
Tom Mahon
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com=20
To: PassengerCarList@yahoogr= oups.com=20 ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; Reading-Talk@dsop.com
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 = 9:40=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Stolen PRR = Number=20 Plates

Lists,=20

  The e-mail I received listing the items for some = reason=20 will not forward and a copy sent in my posting apparently did not fly = either.=20  

  Here is the list: =

  PRR Round number=20 plates:

  650
  1071 =
  2945=20
  3315
  4237
  4245=20
  4270
  4305
  4471=20

  One cast iron whistle board, probably Keystone = shaped.=20

  One cast iron sign with white background and black = trim=20 lettered,  "Look Out for  
  the Locomotive".=20

  Mile post marker from the St. Louis & Chicago, =  cloverleaf shaped with three
  leaves, =  believed to=20 have 289 as the mileage on one side. =

    One=20 tought occurs from passing on this list.  There are the words = "believed"=20 and "probably" used in the description.  Apparently the widow has = a list=20 but it lacks a few pertinent details to fully describe some of these = items.=20   Thought:  Do you have a current, adequately detailed = list of=20 your collection?   If your household is like mine,  you = are the=20 only one that knows what you have, if you can remember everything = you've=20 collected over the years.  

    Evan = Leisey=20   ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C23FF0.E3431340-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] NH FL-9 at Juniata shops Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 05:23:49 -0400 Steve, Dan, List, etc.... The (2016) FL9 is reportedly at Juniata/Altoona for a frame-straightening after an accident. It passed through Conway Yard earlier in the week. Additional details are on the "OS/Sightings" page of my website at: www.forcomm.net/flagstop Terry Stuart The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP Railfan B&B 62 Beaver Street Fallston, PA 15066 www.forcomm.net/flagstop ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 09:08:57 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: Re: Coal sizes Neat picture. I don't have a 3-D viewer, but if I sit about 10 inches from the screen and cross my eyes just right, I can see the 3-D view in a third image that apears between the original two. It does give one a weird feeling in the head, though..... Steve Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Coal sizes From: "Mike Calo" Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 21:30:53 -0400 I don't think this answers your question, but it may be PRR and it talks about the gradiation of coal... http://web.ulib.csuohio.edu/SpecColl/glihc/stereovw/sv13204.html Mike Calo Annapolis MD ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 18:44:34 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Coal sizes --- Mike Calo wrote: > > http://web.ulib.csuohio.edu/SpecColl/glihc/stereovw/sv13204.html > This appears to be related to antracite coal. If I understand correctly, there was a trade association which in the 1920's or earlier set up a standard size system which was observed by all the mine operators. The size of coal, and many other minerals, is often given by screen sizes, such as 1 x 2, meaning "stays on a screen with 1 inch holes, passes a screen with two inch holes". Another form of the same is "+1 -2". (Astute readers may ask "Are those round holes or square holes?". Yes, it makes a difference, and the Bureau of Mines had at least one paper on the subject.) Bituminous coal appears to have not been as highly standardized, or not standardized until much more recently. I have a book somewhere in the Dreaded Basement which recites a list of 50 or so A x B screen sizes, states that all those sizes were called "egg coal" at one or more mines somewhere in the United States, and suggests that one should speak of screen sizes rather than use names in specifying soft coal size. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 07:46:58 -0400 From: Ike Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Coal sizes > Weldon Greiger wrote: > > With all this talk about coaling wharfs, can someone provide me with > the names and sizes of coal?? As an example, someone told me that > "Egg" coal was roughly fist size and stoker coal was about the > diameter of a 50 cent piece. > > Or where can I get this info. Since this is sent to the Reading list as well- Here is a page that gives Anthracite sizings- the first I found- http://www.weikelcoal.com/listofservices.html Culm (waste) was most commonly used in the Anthracite burning engines of the area...there was (and are) piles of it around.. As far as soft coal in PRR use, someone else maybe able to help... Can't tell you if it is graded differently... -- Yrs., Ike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 09:57:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Coal sizes In a message dated 8/11/02 6:49:18 AM, spank@epix.net writes: << > With all this talk about coaling wharfs, can someone provide me with > the names and sizes of coal?? As an example, someone told me that > "Egg" coal was roughly fist size and stoker coal was about the > diameter of a 50 cent piece. > > Or where can I get this info. >> I remember talking with a couple of Track Foremen. I remembered the general conversation because I had never before heard such a detailed knowledge of something I viewed as just crushed rock. The same kind of names and sizes apply to the crushed stone/rock that was/is used for ballast under track ties. Whether they are the same as those used for coal, I don't know but it is logical to assume they are if both are based on passing pieces of material through metal screening. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PAk4s@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 14:18:39 EDT Subject: [PRR] re:coal size This might help you with your question on coal size. When purchacing anthracite coal from a coal yard it is usually sold by name, not numerical size. IE: if I was to want coal for the stoker in my home, I would ask for "rice" not 1/4 inch coal. Rice is the smallest at about 1/4 inches and shaped like a grain of rice. Pea coal comes next an is about 1/2 inches thick. I have a free standing coal stoce in my livingroom and this is what I burn. There are at least 3 more common sizes of coal, stove- nut (sometimes called chestnut or wallnut)- and egg. I am not shure of these numerical sizes but it would not be too hard to find out if you are interested. Contact me offline at PAK4s@aol. I live in anthracite coal country and heat with it. It is one of our resources that fueled our industrial revolution. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 18:23:24 EDT Subject: [PRR] Coal sizes --part1_1a9.69a0dd5.2a883ddc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "FLY" was another size that was used in power plants where the coal was pulverized then mixed with water to be blown by air under pressure into the combustion chamber. Immediately after the hopper car was loaded it passed under a spray of water with some sort of binder that caused the surface layer to form a bond that reduced lost coal due to air movement over the load. One of the power plants in Philadelphia used this coal during the 60's and into the 80's. The process is the same as the Union Pacific turbine locomotive that burned pulverized coal. Off subject. Often when coal classification yards, such as the Reading's at St. Clair, Pa., were abandoned the fallen coal was recovered after the tracks were removed. Wonder what the useful lifetime of coal exposed to the elements is? Evan Leisey --part1_1a9.69a0dd5.2a883ddc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  "FLY" was another size that was used in power plants where the coal was pulverized then mixed with water to be blown by air under pressure into the combustion chamber.  Immediately after the hopper car was loaded it passed under a spray of water with some sort of binder that caused the surface layer to form a bond that reduced lost coal due to air movement over the load.  One of the power plants in Philadelphia used this coal during the 60's and into the 80's.  The process is the same as the Union Pacific turbine locomotive that burned pulverized coal.
 
  Off subject.  Often when coal classification yards, such as the Reading's at St. Clair, Pa., were abandoned the fallen coal was recovered after the tracks were removed.  Wonder what the useful lifetime of coal exposed to the elements is?

Evan Leisey


  --part1_1a9.69a0dd5.2a883ddc_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 20:50:18 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal sizes On Sun, 11 Aug 2002 RDG2124@aol.com (Evan) wrote: > Off subject. Often when coal classification yards, such as the Reading's > at St. Clair, Pa., were abandoned the fallen coal was recovered after the > tracks were removed. Wonder what the useful lifetime of coal exposed to the > elements is? How 'bout millions of years As I have said several times on this lis, although not recently, coal dust from the breakers in coal country, PA washed down the Susquehanna and settled in the basins behind various dams. The dust was dredged and used for fuel for the Holtwood power plant on the C&PD branch of the PRR. As many as FIFTY carloads a day were dredged out of the impoundment of the Safe Harbor dam! BTW, anyone with photos of this operation...i'm still looking for additional sources to put together an article for the Keystone! Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 22:15:58 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Bells --part1_155.1254d18d.2a88745e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Folks, I asked my father-in-law if there was a PRR rule that required engine crew to shine the bell on steam engines. He is a retired PRR/AMTRAK engineer and was a PRR fireman & engineer on steam. Here is his reply: "NO THAT IS NOT TRUE ,THE ENGINE HOUSE CREW WOULD DO THAT IF IT NEEDED TO BE DONE" Happy railroading. Bob Martin --part1_155.1254d18d.2a88745e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Folks,

I asked my father-in-law if there was a PRR rule that required engine crew to shine the bell on steam engines.  He is a retired PRR/AMTRAK engineer and was a PRR fireman & engineer on steam.  Here is his reply:

        
        "NO THAT IS NOT TRUE ,THE ENGINE HOUSE CREW WOULD DO
      THAT IF IT NEEDED TO BE DONE"

Happy railroading.

Bob Martin


--part1_155.1254d18d.2a88745e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 08:08:25 -0400 From: Ike Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal sizes RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > Off subject. Often when coal classification yards, such as the > Reading's at St. Clair, Pa., were abandoned the fallen coal was > recovered after the tracks were removed. Wonder what the useful > lifetime of coal exposed to the elements is? They are still using 100 y/o culm piles for fuel- -- Yrs., Ike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Coal sizes Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:28:25 -0400 y/o - what is this measurement? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Ike Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 8:08 AM To: RDG2124@aol.com Cc: Reading-Talk@dsop.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal sizes RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > Off subject. Often when coal classification yards, such as the > Reading's at St. Clair, Pa., were abandoned the fallen coal was > recovered after the tracks were removed. Wonder what the useful > lifetime of coal exposed to the elements is? They are still using 100 y/o culm piles for fuel- -- Yrs., Ike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Coal sizes Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:39:46 -0400 Year old -----Original Message----- From: Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr. [mailto:gregv@NetReach.Net] Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 9:28 AM To: Ike; RDG2124@aol.com Cc: Reading-Talk@dsop.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Coal sizes y/o - what is this measurement? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Ike Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 8:08 AM To: RDG2124@aol.com Cc: Reading-Talk@dsop.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal sizes RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > Off subject. Often when coal classification yards, such as the > Reading's at St. Clair, Pa., were abandoned the fallen coal was > recovered after the tracks were removed. Wonder what the useful > lifetime of coal exposed to the elements is? They are still using 100 y/o culm piles for fuel- -- Yrs., Ike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:53:37 +0000 Just got my 9/02 MR and Broadway Limited has a full page ad for E7A's due in 2003 for $225.00 each list. E7B's to follow later. No PRR listed and a funny choice with the P2K's flooding the market today. Standard Hobby Supply has a BL N&W A listed for advance reservations. Nobody has the M1 listed anywhere. Seems like a funny name for a company that hasn't and apparently isn't going to produce any PRR engines in spite of their name and claims. Anybody have any further input or knowledge? I am very confused. N Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 13:12:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines From: Jerry Britton On 8/12/02 12:53 PM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > Just got my 9/02 MR and Broadway Limited has a full page > ad for E7A's due in 2003 for $225.00 each list. E7B's > to follow later. No PRR listed and a funny choice with > the P2K's flooding the market today. Standard Hobby > Supply has a BL N&W A listed for advance reservations. > Nobody has the M1 listed anywhere. Seems like a funny > name for a company that hasn't and apparently isn't > going to produce any PRR engines in spite of their name > and claims. Anybody have any further input or > knowledge? I am very confused. N Bell > Comments from "this" dealer: 1) I was surprised that BLI went ahead with the announcement of a fourth locomotive -- and their first diesel -- before even getting their first locomotive out the door; 2) I was surprised at the choice of the EMD E7 as well, given the Life Like Proto unit still available via dealers and eBay at quite reasonable prices; 3) Given the EMD E7, I was surprised that there was not a PRR offering. However, I have not had the time to look at subtle differences in details...perhaps PRR will be a later run. 4) I was recently assured by BLI that the PRR M1's are still on track for December shipment. I don't know why "other" dealers are not marketing them as the part numbers and road numbers are readily available. I have taken dozens of orders from customers. 5) The N&W Class A was the third locomotive announced, but originally scheduled for release this fall, after the NYC J1e. I don't know for certain, but I think this was bumped to the spring. 6) The fourth steam locomotive BLI plans to produce is the T1. HOWEVER, there are no part numbers or road numbers specified yet, so I doubt anyone is taking reservations yet. "This" dealer is not. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:31:42 -0500 I just received an order from SHS, and the flyer they sent had asvance reservations for all three locos, The Hudson, the A, and the M1a/b. The flyer mentions 09/02, 10/02, and 01/03 for the expected delivery dates. So with the A scheduled ahead of the M, I would expect to see advance reservations for the A first. The September MR was the first I heard of the BLI E7. For me, this is welcome news, since I can't stand P2K's bogus nose. BLI has a high standard to live up to, as I'm sure everyone will compare the nose to the Highliners F-unit. Since PRR was not listed, I'm hoping BLI will produce the Phase II carbody as well. This would be correct for PRR post 1952/3. See RMC 5/2000 for more information on the carbody changes. Andy -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 11:54 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines Just got my 9/02 MR and Broadway Limited has a full page ad for E7A's due in 2003 for $225.00 each list. E7B's to follow later. No PRR listed and a funny choice with the P2K's flooding the market today. Standard Hobby Supply has a BL N&W A listed for advance reservations. Nobody has the M1 listed anywhere. Seems like a funny name for a company that hasn't and apparently isn't going to produce any PRR engines in spite of their name and claims. Anybody have any further input or knowledge? I am very confused. N Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 13:56:49 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines Our distributor has listed the M1 and I have on order. My understanding is that P2K's sales of E-units peaked and they will not rerun. Though certain road names are still around, others are fairly scarce. Problem is that the ones that are scarce have a few loyal followers looking for them, but IMO that market is not very deep. E.g., I know CB&Q and IC guys that are desperate for E's but they are not a huge number. I know a guy looking for Rock and I know a guy selling Rock Island--a mismatch like DGLE vs. Tuscan red. Again onesy-twosy. However, don't underestimate the RTR crowd who have money but not the ability to put a decoder, much less sound, in a locomotive (They'll then ask me to replace the Kadee clone couplers with NMRA horn-hook). I'll bet more BL locos are used straight DC with the sound kluge than used DCC. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:04:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines $225.00 each? Set or single unit? Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:13:20 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines From: Jerry Britton On 8/12/02 3:04 PM, zootowerprr@webtv.net (zootowerprr@webtv.net) wrote: > > $225.00 each? Set or single unit? > Single unit. Even with DCC and sound, seems a bit pricey compared to their steam locos. Perhaps the steam locos are "loss leaders" to get people into the new line. Then again, the N&W Class A does retail for $499! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 14:27:31 -0500 The ad says $225 sor a single unit. But examine this further. Several delears advance reservations (for the steamers) I've seen indicate a street price of 80% of list. This would indicate the BLI E-units could be had for $180. Let's give Broadway Limited the benefit of the doubt, and say the E-unit is comparable in quality to the Genesis F-Units. I think the Genesis units can be had for $80 - $90, and adding sound gets it into the BLI price range. I like my P2K E7s, but I'm always looking for better models, and am interested in this latest BLI announcement. Andy Cich -----Original Message----- $225.00 each? Set or single unit? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Grad crossings. Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 15:58:41 -0400 Listers, How well do the Walthers' RTR crossing gates compare to anything the PRR might have used around '57? How about the shanty? TIA. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:05:05 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal sizes >> Wonder what the useful >>lifetime of coal exposed to the elements is? > They are still using 100 y/o culm piles for fuel. Essentially forever. Coal occurs on the surface in many places Burning such is how humans found out about it. (That said: some grades may change properties with exposure...) -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 19:41:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines Andy & List, Well for $180 to $200, I really hope it's a great model. Lets hope for a PRR version with all the "candy"! (front lift rings,trainphone,etc.) I got one P2k E8. I've been trying to get more but no deal. Gone! Same with Athern Genesis F units. Gone! So there is a market for the E-units. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:07:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines In a message dated 8/12/02 6:47:42 PM Central Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: << I got one P2k E8. I've been trying to get more but no deal. Gone! Same with Athern Genesis F units. Gone! >> Respectfully, you may not be looking in the right places. In particular, the Genesis F units appear on eBay regularly. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 20:15:35 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: [PRR] Misplaced address --------------Boundary-00=_Z1ARWCW0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Morgan "ferro.........." Please contact me off list I misplaced your em= ail address. Sorry for the non-prr space guys. Jim sjlash@tcis.net --------------Boundary-00=_Z1ARWCW0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0A
Morgan "ferro.........."   Please contact me off=20 list I misplaced your email address.  Sorry for the non-p= rr=20 space guys.   Jim   sjlash@tcis.net
=09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09
--------------Boundary-00=_Z1ARWCW0000000000000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal sizes Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:53:33 +0000 How about millions of years since it is exposed to nearly everything in the ground including heat, water and various minerals. > >> Wonder what the useful > >>lifetime of coal exposed to the elements is? > > > They are still using 100 y/o culm piles for fuel. > Essentially forever. > > Coal occurs on the surface in many places > > Burning such is how humans found out about it. > > (That said: some grades may change properties > with exposure...) > > -- > best > dwp > > ...the net of a million lies... > Vernor Vinge > There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. > -me > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Coal sizes Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 07:56:40 -0500 Coal contains volatile organic material, such as methane,benzene, xylenes, and other chemicals. If coal is exposed to the elements, these materials will evaporate, and the compostion of the coal will change over time. -----Original Message----- From: davep [mailto:davep@quik.com] Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 5:05 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal sizes >> Wonder what the useful >>lifetime of coal exposed to the elements is? > They are still using 100 y/o culm piles for fuel. Essentially forever. Coal occurs on the surface in many places Burning such is how humans found out about it. (That said: some grades may change properties with exposure...) -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 08:21:35 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines Dave sez: > Well for $180 to $200, I really hope it's a great model. Lets hope >for a PRR version with all the "candy"! (front lift >rings,trainphone,etc.) Y'all keep amazing me... Bottom line...a P2K E unit is what, around $80? and Soundtraxx DCC (1st Gen EMP. LL plug n play) is $116...so the going price for a sound equipped E7 is $200...and you want MORE for LESS money? Frankly, I would expect slightly less detail than a P2K engine for the money you're going to be paying...it would seem like a decent value to me... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 14:31:32 +0000 The problem I see is what percent of the hobby usess DCC? Granted with time most will but it is definitely the minority for now. What use is a dcc dcoder or dcc sound to most of the hobby? That will certainly limit sales. > Dave sez: > > Well for $180 to $200, I really hope it's a great model. Lets hope > >for a PRR version with all the "candy"! (front lift > >rings,trainphone,etc.) > > Y'all keep amazing me... Bottom line...a P2K E unit is what, around $80? > and Soundtraxx DCC (1st Gen EMP. LL plug n play) is $116...so the going > price for a sound equipped E7 is $200...and you want MORE for LESS money? > Frankly, I would expect slightly less detail than a P2K engine for the > money you're going to be paying...it would seem like a decent value to me... > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:40:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 08/13/02 --part1_176.ce29f11.2a8a7457_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/13/02 1:12:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > They'll then ask me to replace the Kadee clone couplers with > NMRA horn-hook Sorry, but I gotta say it. Horn hooks, you gotta be kiddin'! The KD clones are not much better than horn hooks but . . . never mind, I'm preaching to the choir. We all must do a better job educating the RTR crowd. After all, they might be the future of model railroading. Regarding BLI, despite Jerry's faith in BLI, I am not going to hold my breath. Something seems to be very, very wrong at BLI. They seemed to have forgotten to learn how to crawl before trying to run. Seems to me that a new company trying to establish themselves and their credibility should at the very least, get their first product to market before touting numbers two, three and four. Bob Martin Pres, GM, Chief Maintainer Central Pennsylvania Railroad --part1_176.ce29f11.2a8a7457_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/13/02 1:12:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


They'll then ask me to replace the Kadee clone couplers with
NMRA horn-hook


Sorry, but I gotta say it.  Horn hooks, you gotta be kiddin'!  The KD clones are not much better than horn hooks but . . . never mind, I'm preaching to the choir.  We all must do a better job educating the RTR crowd.  After all, they might be the future of model railroading.  

Regarding BLI, despite Jerry's faith in BLI, I am not going to hold my breath.  Something seems to be very, very wrong at BLI.  They seemed to have forgotten to learn how to crawl before trying to run.  Seems to me that a new company trying to establish themselves and their credibility should at the very least, get their first product to market before touting numbers two, three and four.

Bob Martin
Pres, GM, Chief Maintainer
Central Pennsylvania Railroad

--part1_176.ce29f11.2a8a7457_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:46:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines From: Jerry Britton On 8/13/02 10:31 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > The problem I see is what percent of the hobby usess > DCC? Granted with time most will but it is definitely > the minority for now. What use is a dcc dcoder or dcc > sound to most of the hobby? That will certainly limit > sales. BLI's sound ALSO works with traditional DC systems! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:52:51 -0400 If I heard correctly Broadway Limited sound cards will work with both DCC and good old straight DC. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 10:32 AM To: Bruce F. Smith; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines The problem I see is what percent of the hobby usess DCC? Granted with time most will but it is definitely the minority for now. What use is a dcc dcoder or dcc sound to most of the hobby? That will certainly limit sales. > Dave sez: > > Well for $180 to $200, I really hope it's a great model. Lets hope > >for a PRR version with all the "candy"! (front lift > >rings,trainphone,etc.) > > Y'all keep amazing me... Bottom line...a P2K E unit is what, around $80? > and Soundtraxx DCC (1st Gen EMP. LL plug n play) is $116...so the going > price for a sound equipped E7 is $200...and you want MORE for LESS money? > Frankly, I would expect slightly less detail than a P2K engine for the > money you're going to be paying...it would seem like a decent value to me... > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:54:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI From: Jerry Britton On 8/13/02 10:40 AM, Cprrboss@aol.com (Cprrboss@aol.com) wrote: > Regarding BLI, despite Jerry's faith in BLI, I am not going to hold my breath. > Something seems to be very, very wrong at BLI. They seemed to have forgotten > to learn how to crawl before trying to run. Seems to me that a new company > trying to establish themselves and their credibility should at the very least, > get their first product to market before touting numbers two, three and four. > Regarding my "faith" in BLI...I have tried to temper my posts with some concern. The models are excellent, but I have indeed cautioned that they should ship their first product before announcing more models. So, Bob and I are really in the same school of thought. I also posted my concern about Oriental Limited, the company that spawned BLI. They've been off the web for three months and claim its a combination of domain name dispute and concentration BLI. However, when one calls up their domain registration (http://www.netsol.com/cgi-bin/whois/whois?STRING=orientalltd.com&SearchType =do), the Administrative Contact -- who has ownership control -- is indeed Mr. Wentzel of BLI. Owning several domains myself, I don't see why this would keep Oriental off the web. I hope BLI works out. It looks like they have an excellent plan of releases. But I am very concerned about their survivability until such time that they actually ship a few models. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 09:35:11 -0500 I've never paid $80 for a P2K E7. More like $50, if you are patient. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 8:22 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines Dave sez: > Well for $180 to $200, I really hope it's a great model. Lets hope >for a PRR version with all the "candy"! (front lift >rings,trainphone,etc.) Y'all keep amazing me... Bottom line...a P2K E unit is what, around $80? and Soundtraxx DCC (1st Gen EMP. LL plug n play) is $116...so the going price for a sound equipped E7 is $200...and you want MORE for LESS money? Frankly, I would expect slightly less detail than a P2K engine for the money you're going to be paying...it would seem like a decent value to me... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:04:14 -0400 Do I hear Enron?????? I am very skeptical about this whole thing. I am in agreement that they need to get one product out before announcing 2nd 3rd & 4th releases! I will wait to part with my hard earned cash until I see real products. Sam Vastano >From: Jerry Britton >To: , PRR-Talk LIST >Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI >Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:54:17 -0400 > >On 8/13/02 10:40 AM, Cprrboss@aol.com (Cprrboss@aol.com) wrote: > > > Regarding BLI, despite Jerry's faith in BLI, I am not going to hold my >breath. > > Something seems to be very, very wrong at BLI. They seemed to have >forgotten > > to learn how to crawl before trying to run. Seems to me that a new >company > > trying to establish themselves and their credibility should at the very >least, > > get their first product to market before touting numbers two, three and >four. > > >Regarding my "faith" in BLI...I have tried to temper my posts with some >concern. The models are excellent, but I have indeed cautioned that they >should ship their first product before announcing more models. So, Bob and >I >are really in the same school of thought. > >I also posted my concern about Oriental Limited, the company that spawned >BLI. They've been off the web for three months and claim its a combination >of domain name dispute and concentration BLI. However, when one calls up >their domain registration >(http://www.netsol.com/cgi-bin/whois/whois?STRING=orientalltd.com&SearchType >=do), the Administrative Contact -- who has ownership control -- is indeed >Mr. Wentzel of BLI. Owning several domains myself, I don't see why this >would keep Oriental off the web. > >I hope BLI works out. It looks like they have an excellent plan of >releases. >But I am very concerned about their survivability until such time that they >actually ship a few models. >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Sam _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:05:49 -0400 I don't know about all of you, but a scam seems to be evident in my eyes. Again, this is my speculation, my opinion. The company is now taking orders for the 4th locomotive and the 1st one is not out yet? I have not seen any locomotive's yet. I thought the M was coming before the N & W "A" class. Now E7's! What happened to the T-1's. One thing I do keep seeing, the need to put money down on the "NEW" locomotive coming out! I am very weary of a company taking orders for locomotives that are expected to be in production, then announcing the launch of a new product when the existing line has yet to see the market. BLI is now on their forth product. If I stand incorrect, let me know, but BLI should still be on the NYC J class. I feel sorry for all of you who put your money down. If I also stand corrected, didn't Oriental Limited stick the shaft to dealers a few years back when they announced a limited run of diesels I forget which model), then after hitting the market via the dealers, another run of the same diesels was announced, therefore making the first run worth S%*T! Yes, the dealers got the shaft there. The company obviously operates on a different type of time line, one that I am skeptical of, and not interested in doing business with. I do hope things work out for all the people who put money down, I'll play it safe and take the back seat to this one. Greg V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:25:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines From: Jerry Britton On 8/13/02 12:05 PM, Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr. (gregv@NetReach.Net) wrote: > I don't know about all of you, but a scam seems to be evident in my eyes. > Again, this is my speculation, my opinion. I would not go that far. In a scam, there is a definite attempt by the scammer (BLI) to defraud its victims of something. While many dealers require down payments from customers for brass or "high end" plastic, it is the dealer who holds this down payment, not the manufacturer. So a scam on BLI's part would not get the funds. However, in the case of brass, the importer charges the dealer via a "pro forma" invoice (pay in advance) which is issued when the importer actually receives the product and is ready to ship to dealers. Yes, there is some risk at this point. However, BLI offers terms and also sells to dealers via distributors. Again, no apparent scam here. > > The company is now taking orders for the 4th locomotive and the 1st one is > not out yet? I have not seen any locomotive's yet. I thought the M was > coming before the N & W "A" class. Now E7's! What happened to the T-1's. > One thing I do keep seeing, the need to put money down on the "NEW" > locomotive coming out! The N&W Class A was the third loco announced, but was squeezed into the fall. I believe it has since been pushed to the spring. The web site does not show an ETA. The web site still shows the T1 as a future product. No part numbers or road numbers are offered, which "should" tell dealers "don't take reservations yet". > > I am very weary of a company taking orders for locomotives that are expected > to be in production, then announcing the launch of a new product when the > existing line has yet to see the market. BLI is now on their forth product. > If I stand incorrect, let me know, but BLI should still be on the NYC J > class. For a new company, I agree to some extent. But consider Atlas and Life Like. What would it be like if they only dealt with one model at a time? > > I feel sorry for all of you who put your money down. If I also stand > corrected, didn't Oriental Limited stick the shaft to dealers a few years > back when they announced a limited run of diesels I forget which model), > then after hitting the market via the dealers, another run of the same > diesels was announced, therefore making the first run worth S%*T! Yes, the > dealers got the shaft there. Those who put money down did so with an ETA -- the "E" meaning "estimated". So far, the only delay has been the NYC J1e. It had problems, which first-hand reports from the NMRA convention report have been fixed. It's currently three months late, but LL and Atlas often do the same. Those who pre-ordered an M1 due in December may still indeed see it in December. > > The company obviously operates on a different type of time line, one that I > am skeptical of, and not interested in doing business with. I do hope > things work out for all the people who put money down, I'll play it safe and > take the back seat to this one. > To each his own. While I am cautious, I do not yet have the concerns I had with Liberty Model Productions, Union Station Products, or Miracle Castings. Heck, three years ago I caught hell for declaring Miracle Castings comatose. After a long silence they spoke out and insisted I was wrong, unauthorized me as a dealer, and assured everyone that the next model would be out post haste. So, how many of you actually got their imminent FM H-16-44? Thought so! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: RE: [PRR] ice for reefers and ice transport on railroads Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 11:33:28 -0500 Burkhard Sanner inquired about ice harvesting and transport business. Did such business exist on the PRR too, e.g. from some higher elevation in the Appalachians? From where did the relevant industry in New York, Philly and Baltimore get the ice before mechanical refrigeration? And were was the ice for the reefer icing facilities on PRR from? ---------------------------------------- I have a Sanborn map of Elmira, New York. This map is from 1914, updated to 1932. It has a trackside building labeled "PENNSYLVANIA RR ICE HO." This building is located compass east of the turntable. (The Fruit Growers Express icing platform was located on the other end (compass south) of the yard.) The loading platform along the track scales out to about 100 feet long. This indicates to me that this was not used to ice reefers but used to unload cars of block ice. This ice was most likely stored for later use in reefers. It is interesting that this ice house does not appear on the 1950 Sanborn map. Perhaps "modern" ice making equipment had been installed by this time. I can only assume that ice was cut on the local lakes. Can any "locals" shed some light on this. Pete Reinhold Modeling the Elmira Branch 1950 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:49:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] ice for reefers and ice transport on railroads From: Jerry Britton On 8/13/02 12:33 PM, Pete Reinhold (preinhol@unidie.com) wrote: > Burkhard Sanner inquired about ice harvesting and transport business. > > Did such business exist on the PRR too, e.g. from > some higher elevation in the Appalachians? From > where did the relevant industry in New York, > Philly and Baltimore get the ice before mechanical > refrigeration? And were was the ice for the reefer > icing facilities on PRR from? I live between Harrisburg and York, PA, just off the Northern Central Branch. I have visited the local library and read the local histories and was quite surprised to find out how much RR activity went on in the area. There was an icing station at Cly, the first interlocking west of the merger of the Atglen & Susquehanna Branch and the Northern Central Branch. The local history reads that ice was cut from the Susquehanna River, which paralleled the right of way. I don't know how many months of the year they could harvest ice, but I assume they could store it a little longer than they could harvest it. This icing station also apparently provided ice for making ice cream at several plants in nearby York. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:15:29 -0400 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines Gentry, This thread reminds me of a cartoon in an old 50's era copy of MR. It showed a couple of exec types sitting around an office decorated with locomotive photos and other railroadania, looking over sheafs of letters. The fella behind the desk remarks, "Looks like our recently announched loco is really popular. Maybe we better get started on the planning"! Maybe some things haven't changed as much over the years as it sometimes seems. Oh well,I never had much use for $225 E units anyway. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:11:27 -0500 Hi All! And especially Greg! I not only agree, I practice what is preached here! Why would anyone send money to an unproven company. Just because they say they are connected with Oriental Limited? From what I can tell from the advertisements and what I see as factual information (Jerry and others), the whole BLI situation is very shaky! El Caveat Emptor! My Two Cents Worth! And IMHO! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist! PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, 13 August, 2002 11:05 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines > I don't know about all of you, but a scam seems to be evident in my eyes.> Again, this is my speculation, my opinion.> > The company is now taking orders for the 4th locomotive and the 1st one is> not out yet? I have not seen any locomotive's yet. I thought the M was > coming before the N & W "A" class. Now E7's! What happened to the T-1's.> One thing I do keep seeing, the need to put money down on the "NEW" > locomotive coming out!> > I am very weary of a company taking orders for locomotives that are expected > to be in production, then announcing the launch of a new product when the > existing line has yet to see the market. BLI is now on their forth product. > If I stand incorrect, let me know, but BLI should still be on the NYC J > class. > > I feel sorry for all of you who put your money down. If I also stand > corrected, didn't Oriental Limited stick the shaft to dealers a few years > back when they announced a limited run of diesels I forget which model), > then after hitting the market via the dealers, another run of the same > diesels was announced, therefore making the first run worth S%*T! Yes, the > dealers got the shaft there. > > The company obviously operates on a different type of time line, one that I > am skeptical of, and not interested in doing business with. I do hope > things work out for all the people who put money down, I'll play it safe and > take the back seat to this one. > > Greg V > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "wbigler" Subject: [PRR] Ice Harvesting and Storage Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:17:46 -0400 As far as I know ice could be harvested as long as the water was frozen to a depth of a foot or more. It could be stored all summer until the next winter harvesting season in properly constructed ice houses. Good ice houses had walls and ceilings of alternating layers of cork and air. The ice was packed as densly as possible. Where they could, they built them (all or partially) below ground level, or in the side of a hill. They sprayed water on the roofs in really hot weather to limit temperature rise. When they could, they tried to have them in the shade, out of the direct sun. Ice harvesting is shown in the video "261 and the Great Freight" which shows MLW 261 on a winter freight run out of Steamtown. I believe it's a Goodheart video and is still available. There is a list of PRR icing stations on the internet but I don't have access to it right now - hopefully in a day or two, if anyone is interested. Anyone have similar information on operation and locations of livestock exercise/watering stations, especially the one at Renovo PA? TIA. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Williamsport and Renovo during WWII . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "wbigler" Subject: [PRR] PRR Icing Station Locations & Elmira 1950 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:26:37 -0400 The URL for the list of icing stations on the PRR in 1950 is: http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/ICING_STA TIONS.htm Sorry it's so long. Elmira is still shown on this 1950 list. Not sure why it's not on the Sanborn map. By 1950 mechanical reefers were becoming more plentiful and some icing stations were being closed. They were virtually all gone by the mid '50s AFAIK. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling Williamsport & Renovo WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR Icing Station Locations & Elmira 1950 Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 12:45:38 -0500 Bill and List, Perhaps I was not totally clear in my first post. I was talking about the "ice house" not appearing on the 1950 map. The "icing station" (FGE) is on the 1950 map. Pete Reinhold Elmira Branch 1950 --------------------------- Elmira is still shown on this 1950 list. Not sure why it's not on the Sanborn map. By 1950 mechanical reefers were becoming more plentiful and some icing stations were being closed. They were virtually all gone by the mid '50s AFAIK. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling Williamsport & Renovo WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 14:29:41 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines Friends, Comments follow: The problem I see is what percent of the hobby usess DCC? Granted with time most will but it is definitely the minority for now. What use is a dcc dcoder or dcc sound to most of the hobby? That will certainly limit sales. > Dave sez: > > Well for $180 to $200, I really hope it's a great model. Lets hope > >for a PRR version with all the "candy"! (front lift > >rings,trainphone,etc.) > > Y'all keep amazing me... Bottom line...a P2K E unit is what, around $80? > and Soundtraxx DCC (1st Gen EMP. LL plug n play) is $116...so the going > price for a sound equipped E7 is $200...and you want MORE for LESS money? > Frankly, I would expect slightly less detail than a P2K engine for the > money you're going to be paying...it would seem like a decent value to me... > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin I just couldn't help noticing the comparison for these different brands but the comment about the DCC decoder got my attention. I don't want to start any flame war over the issue but, DCC is here already and it will become the defacto standard just like KayDee couplers. Those that want to have sound and the flexibility that DCC provides will benefit from the technology. Not everyone can benefit from DCC, especially those with extremely smaller, single-user layouts, but DCC, or Command Control, originally was where Sound-on-board was started. PFM Sound through the rails is not a self-contained sound system and it is NOT usable without the system. A looooong time ago, Modeltronics made a system that was independent but only provided chuff and airpumps. We were thrilled. If you used the speaker that came with the system, it sounded like two sandpaper blocks rubbing together, but it was still steam sound. The BLI system will be neither DCC or proprietory equipment dependent. It will work on both DC and DCC, plus it will come ready-to-run. I believe that thinking a decoder will detract from sales is like saying "automatic transmissions will never catch on in real cars." or "Who needs an icemaker when a guy will deliver it to your door for pennies?" The loco is a real bargain when you consider the $116 price tag for the SoundTraxx unit still requires a decent speaker plus the time to install the decoder (I know a small amount) after taking it apart, disconnecting the original light board, and reassembling it. Accept the future or become a classic car collector Regards, Nick Kulp http://www.igateway.com X-SpamDetect: low: Possible Junk Mail ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] Rare mileage trips followup Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 13:27:01 -0500 After attending the trip this past Saturday I was wondering if anyone else questioned the state of the motive power. The F7's functioned okay but what kind of a paint scheme is that? With the amount of people attending these trips (over 500 each trip at $35 each) at least $100 worth of spray paint would have looked better! Don't get me wrong the trip was priceless to go on, but a quick paint job would have been better! Did anyone else notice dates carved into the stone between Canonsburg and Houston on the bridge abutement heading home? It looked to be carved and stenciled over making it difficult to make out the dates. Any ideas what the dates were from? And lastly, if you did not get a chance to see the fancy paint job the entire train is in Canonsburg along Pike Street. Patrick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 18:49:05 +0000 Having been one who jumped on the PFM sound bandwagon I am being very cautious about getting into DCC. I have a lot of money invested that is absolutely useless if I want to switch as you mentioned. I also came to the conclusion that DCC is not in it's final form yet or cost justifiable to me. PFM sound is far cheaper and far more flexible than DCC sound. I also think that there will be features in the next 5 years that will make the present systems obsolete. Look at the Zimo system that can do things the NMRA standards don't even think about like send you an engine identity signal on start up so you know where every engine is on your system. I firmly believe that fiber optic transmissions from cab windows to a decdoder and on to a computer are doable and will be cheap in the time frame mentioned. Do I know of anyone planning to market such a system. A resounding no. But the high tech sector is on it's heals and looking for places to obtain markets however. Would I pay for a BLI engine with sound and a decoder at their current prices. I don't think so and don't intend to buy until I can get some feedback from users not the model press that have hand picked and tuned models sent to them. Would I buy a BLI or anybody else engine that I could run from the cab window with a virtual reality set of controls and operate like a real steam engine or diesel including reaching for the throttle and whistle cord. Sign me up at any price. I envision the choice of being fireman or engineer on my train and being able to view the railroad from the cab. Through virtual reality I can run even more like the real thing than even DCC offers. DCC is in its infancy to me and if I am right there will be a lot of old systems available at flea markets sooner than later without a lot of features that haven't even been thought of yet. I guess it is up to each of us to decide what we want and when to jump in. Norm Bell > Friends, > > Comments follow: > > The problem I see is what percent of the hobby usess > DCC? Granted with time most will but it is definitely > the minority for now. What use is a dcc dcoder or dcc > sound to most of the hobby? That will certainly limit > sales. > > > Dave sez: > > > Well for $180 to $200, I really hope it's a great model. Lets hope > > >for a PRR version with all the "candy"! (front lift > > >rings,trainphone,etc.) > > > Y'all keep amazing me... Bottom line...a P2K E unit is what, around $80? > > > and Soundtraxx DCC (1st Gen EMP. LL plug n play) is $116...so the going > > price for a sound equipped E7 is $200...and you want MORE for LESS money? > > > Frankly, I would expect slightly less detail than a P2K engine for the > > money you're going to be paying...it would seem like a decent value to me... > > > > Happy Rails > > Bruce > > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin > > > I just couldn't help noticing the comparison for these different brands but > the comment about the DCC decoder got my attention. I don't want to start any > flame war over the issue but, DCC is here already and it will become the defacto > standard just like KayDee couplers. Those that want to have sound and the > flexibility > that DCC provides will benefit from the technology. > > Not everyone can benefit from DCC, especially those with extremely smaller, > single-user layouts, but DCC, or Command Control, originally was where > Sound-on-board > was started. PFM Sound through the rails is not a self-contained sound system > and it is NOT usable without the system. A looooong time ago, Modeltronics made > a system that was independent but only provided chuff and airpumps. We were > thrilled. If you used the speaker that came with the system, it sounded like > two sandpaper blocks rubbing together, but it was still steam sound. > > The BLI system will be neither DCC or proprietory equipment dependent. It will > work on both DC and DCC, plus it will come ready-to-run. > > I believe that thinking a decoder will detract from sales is like saying > "automatic > transmissions will never catch on in real cars." or "Who needs an icemaker when > a guy will deliver it to your door for pennies?" > > The loco is a real bargain when you consider the $116 price tag for the > SoundTraxx > unit still requires a decent speaker plus the time to install the decoder (I > know a small amount) after taking it apart, disconnecting the original light > board, and reassembling it. > > Accept the future or become a classic car collector > > Regards, > Nick Kulp > > http://www.igateway.com > > X-SpamDetect: low: Possible Junk Mail > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: RE: [PRR] engines Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 14:20:12 -0500 Jerry and List, I 'm hoping that Broadway Limited can pull this off. Personally, I can see the advantages of a R-T-R, DCC & sound at the price of all the parts. More time to do other projects. I've been painting and installing PFM sound for years so I can see a big time savings in the locomotives offered today. And, I want Broadway Limited to do I's. Pete Reinhold Elmira Branch 1950 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] engines Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:32:15 -0400 Listers, I'm waiting for a J. On another note, Does anyone have an opinion on Dallee PRR sound systems? They seem to be PRR specific. Do they sound like PRR engines? Do you have to install them along with a separate DCC decoder to run the engine? Are they hard to install? TIA Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Pete Reinhold [mailto:preinhol@unidie.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 3:20 PM To: 'PRR-Talk LIST' Subject: RE: [PRR] engines Jerry and List, I 'm hoping that Broadway Limited can pull this off. Personally, I can see the advantages of a R-T-R, DCC & sound at the price of all the parts. More time to do other projects. I've been painting and installing PFM sound for years so I can see a big time savings in the locomotives offered today. And, I want Broadway Limited to do I's. Pete Reinhold Elmira Branch 1950 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:42:32 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] engines From: Jerry Britton On 8/13/02 3:32 PM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > > I'm waiting for a J. > > On another note, Does anyone have an opinion on Dallee PRR sound systems? > They seem to be PRR specific. > > Do they sound like PRR engines? > Do you have to install them along with a separate DCC decoder to run the > engine? > Are they hard to install? > I do not have first-hand experience from Dallee, but what I consistently hear is that in order to play one sound, it cuts off the previous sound. In other words, if you have the bell on and hit the whistle, the bell stops. Etc. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:52:03 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] BLI New Product announcements Morgan, Jerry and all, The use of civility is in order. That being said I think that Broadway Limited will in fact live up to all they have announced but... over time. We all know that they are committed to doing the J1e, that is real. What follows will be up to the actual producer (the plant making the locomotives for Tony). It sound like the producer is eager to get product into the starving market and is now throwing more product at Tony than he may have ask for. But Tony will do his best to market the product as well as he can in as timely a manner as the market will absorb. I also find it interesting that they have announced the diesel as quickly as they have. The E-7 is as good a choice as any with the Life Like's offering not going over as well as it could have had the nose been not been a stumbling block. I don't own one but have a couple MODEL POWER E-7's and they ain't all that bad, just dated technology. But there is always the fear on Tony's side that Life Like may elect to correct the nose on their offering, as we have seen Life Like correct many of their earlier models. I always welcome competition as it just makes us the winner. The price although seeming a bit high will likely come off a bit as it always does with the mail oder houses always cutting margins in order to meet the market head on. I like the Tony's ideas of SOUND for both DC and DCC and credit him for that and I would wager that the market will address this in the future. Tony, I say bully! But Tony, beware of the Front Range syndrome, make sure one project pays for the next and don't follow the advice of anyone but your gut! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:31:30 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] engines Chis sez: >I'm waiting for a J. > >On another note, Does anyone have an opinion on Dallee PRR sound systems? >They seem to be PRR specific. > >Do they sound like PRR engines? >Do you have to install them along with a separate DCC decoder to run the >engine? >Are they hard to install? Here is my first hand experience some 4 years ago... The sound units are BIG...they will fit in a Bowser T1 tender, JUST. They will NOT fit in an IHC Premier GG1. The sound is good, but only one sound can play at a time. Blow the whistle and no bell (just while the whistle sounds)...it isn't as bad as it sounds, but it isn't as good as Soundtrax either. Connection to DCC is simple. Dallee appears to have recently released an updated unit that may be considerably smaller than previous units. For the GG1, K4 and T1 its the only thing going right now (Is a Roco sound equipped GG1 in our very near future? Enquiring minds...). The Soundtraxx British L1 tank loco is the hands down winner if you want a PRR freight banshee whistle. Our attempts to get Soundtraxxx to do a GG1 fell flat...they were too busy with diseasels at the time. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAMMP236@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 17:50:44 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Re: PRR Icing Stations Locations & Elmira 1950s --part1_55.2bbb7f22.2a8ad934_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There was at least one PRR icing station that lasted into the Mid Sixtys. I remember cars being iced at Huntingdon PA into the mid sixtys. --part1_55.2bbb7f22.2a8ad934_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There was at least one PRR icing station that lasted into the Mid Sixtys.  I remember cars being iced at Huntingdon PA into the mid sixtys. --part1_55.2bbb7f22.2a8ad934_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 19:08:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines Hey Bruce...... I don't want more, I want it ALL! And some railroad model companies give thier all. A $200 plastic E-7 sounds like a lot of money even with sound. I saw the NYC J1e and I must say I wasn't impressed. Athearn-Genesis,Kato,and Life-Like P2K Steam Heritage lead the pack in plastic models. Some may disagree. I must agree with the earlier post about "announcing a 4th model when the first isn't out yet" theme. I'm just a PRR "rivet counter". I don't ask for much,just all of it! :-) "Dave sez" I LOVE THIS PRR LIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 19:45:19 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Ice Harvesting and Storage > Ice harvesting is shown in the video "261 and the Great Freight" which shows > MLW 261 on a winter freight run out of Steamtown. I believe it's a > Goodheart video and is still available. Since someone else mentioned the MILW 8)>> Current Milwaukee Rd magazine has an article on MILW Company Ice Cars. Seems Milw had a fleet of cars for moving company ice, from company icehouses (on company ponds?) to locations where needed. I would guess such arrangements were not unique. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 21:03:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines --part1_d2.1c71737c.2a8b067c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/13/02 7:17:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: > Dave, care to elaborate on this? I'm looking at the M1's but would like to know how they measure up. I agree about the E7, at that price I don't think they will sell many. It wouldn't surprised me to see Athearn do the E units in the Genesis line. Todd Horton --part1_d2.1c71737c.2a8b067c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/13/02 7:17:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes:


I saw the NYC J1e and I must say I wasn't impressed


Dave, care to elaborate on this? I'm looking at the M1's but would like to know how they measure up. I agree about the E7, at that price I don't think they will sell many. It wouldn't surprised me to see Athearn do the E units in the Genesis line. Todd Horton --part1_d2.1c71737c.2a8b067c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 21:15:09 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C2430E.813DA860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Gize: I have read this thread throughout this day. It interests me just like mo= st on this list. I do agree that BLI appears to be overly ambitious in an= nouncing 4 engines before the first is released. =20 At the same time, I am troubled in the talk of not buying any BLI stuff b= ecause of the premature announcements and the below-par performance of th= e J-1 prototype earlier this year. I recall Life Like in 1989 announcing plans for a "Proto 2000" series wit= h the BL-2 (of all engines, they picked this one as their first) as the f= irst production. I held my breath back then. After all, this was Life Lik= e, a.k.a. Life-less; by the 1980's this firm forged a well earned reputat= ion as being perhaps the worst model railroad manufacturer...even worse t= han Tyco! But I was surprise, in fact pleasantly stunned in the overall quality of = my Monon BL-2 that I bought as a Christmas present to myself on Dec. 24, = 1989. The engine was a pretty good runner and had detail parts such as ha= nd grabs, stantions and sun visors, securely attached to the model. I thi= nk that this was a first for a mass produced HO scale locomotive. As time went on, I kept an eye out on Life Like. As time went on, the dri= ves and especially the detail and paint finishes improved. Now, there are= more P2K boxes on my shelf than others. It did not happen overnight, but= Life Like not only set a new standard for hobby producers, but its produ= cts finally lived up to its name. Applying this to BLI, I will place an order for one J-1 Hudson. As time g= oes on, I know that this firm will produce better, more detailed engines.= The M-1's are third in line and should be better than the Hudson in term= s of detail and performance. =20 The bottom line is when you consider the price of the BLI M-1 ($279), I t= hink it is worth the purchase of 1 if it is an OK model, 2 if it is a ver= y good model, and 3 if it is an excellent model. That is how I will view = BLI. I will give them just as much of a chance as I did with Proto 2000, = Bachman Spectrum, and Athearn Genesis. High detailed plastic engines are the norm now. There are big players in = steam locomotive modeling such as P2K and Rivarossi. Bachman is re-toolin= g their engines with great results, and other well known firms such as Ma= rklin and Roco are now turning their sights toward the American market. =20 I think that the next few years are going to be exciting in model railroa= ding. :) Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C2430E.813DA860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
<= DIV> Gize:
 
I have read this thread thro= ughout this day. It interests me just like most on this list. I do agree = that BLI appears to be overly ambitious in announcing 4 engines before th= e first is released.
 
At the same time, I am= troubled in the talk of not buying any BLI stuff because of the prematur= e announcements and the below-par performance of the J-1 prototype earlie= r this year.
 
I recall Life Like in 1989 anno= uncing plans for a "Proto 2000" series with the BL-2 (of all engines= , they picked this one as their first) as the first production. I he= ld my breath back then. After all, this was Life Like, a.k.a. Life-l= ess; by the 1980's this firm forged a well earned reputation as bein= g perhaps the worst model railroad manufacturer...even worse than Tyco!
 
But I was surprise, in fact pleasantly s= tunned in the overall quality of my Monon BL-2 that I bought as a Christm= as present to myself on Dec. 24, 1989. The engine was a pretty = good runner and had detail parts such as hand grabs, stantions = and sun visors, securely attached to the model. I think that this wa= s a first for a mass produced HO scale locomotive.
 =
As time went on, I kept an eye out on Life Lik= e. As time went on, the drives and especially the detail and paint&n= bsp;finishes improved. Now, there are more P2K boxes on my shelf tha= n others. It did not happen overnight, but Life Like not only&n= bsp;set a new standard for hobby producers, but its products finally= lived up to its name.
 
Applying this to BLI,= I will place an order for one J-1 Hudson. As time goes on= , I know that this firm will produce better, more detailed engi= nes. The M-1's are third in line and should be better than the&= nbsp;Hudson in terms of detail and performance.
&nb= sp;
The bottom line is when you consider the price of the = ;BLI M-1 ($279), I think it is worth the purchase of = 1 if it is an OK model, 2 if it is a very good model, and 3 if it is= an excellent model. That is how I will view BLI. I will give them j= ust as much of a chance as I did with Proto 2000, Bachman = Spectrum, and Athearn Genesis.
 
High detailed= plastic engines are the norm now. There are big players in steam lo= comotive modeling such as P2K and Rivarossi. Bachman is re-tooling t= heir engines with great results, and other well known firms suc= h as Marklin and Roco are now turning their sights toward the Americ= an market. 
 
I think that the next = few years are going to be exciting in model railroading.  :)
<= DIV> 
 
Ted Andrews
Carmel, In= diana 
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C2430E.813DA860-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 22:27:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Rare mileage trips followup --part1_11c.1560f577.2a8b1a27_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/13/2002 2:42:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yunz@verizon.net writes: > After attending the trip this past Saturday I was wondering if anyone > else questioned the state of the motive power. The F7's functioned okay but > what kind of a paint scheme is that? With the amount of people attending > these trips (over 500 each trip at $35 each) at least $100 worth of spray > paint would have looked better! Don't get me wrong the trip was priceless > to go on, but a quick paint job would have been better! > > The F units were recently acquired from Gettysburg Railroad and are in the process of being refurbished. They were used because the air pollution regulations in Allegheny County would have been violated by the steam locomotives available and resulted in substantial fines if not prohibition of operation. Rich Orr --part1_11c.1560f577.2a8b1a27_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/13/2002 2:42:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yunz@verizon.net writes:


    After attending the trip this past Saturday I was wondering if anyone else questioned the state of the motive power. The F7's functioned okay but what kind of a paint scheme is that? With the amount of people attending these trips (over 500 each trip at $35 each) at least $100 worth of spray paint would have looked better! Don't get me wrong the trip was priceless to go on, but a quick paint job would have been better!

    
The F units were recently acquired from Gettysburg Railroad and are in the process of being refurbished.  They were used because the air pollution regulations in Allegheny County would have been violated by the steam locomotives available and resulted in substantial fines if not prohibition of operation.

Rich Orr --part1_11c.1560f577.2a8b1a27_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 22:35:52 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] RE: Ice Harvesting and Storage Bill Bigler said> "Where they could, they built them [ice houses] (all or partially) below ground level, or in the side of a hill." Although a lot of ice houses were built partially below ground, the best ones where those built into the side of a hill or above ground. One of the biggest threats to the deterioration of ice is standing water, which no longer is at the proper temperature to maintain its solid state and radiates heat. Any melt water that does occur from ice storage should be conducted away from the ice house ASAP to preclude its effect on the nearby ice. Doing this with a below ground house is difficult. An ice house built into a hill or above ground, if properly graded permits the melt water to be conducted away from the site. Hay and especially saw dust were also used as insulating materials. Look forward to seeing the list of PRR icing stations. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 00:47:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines Todd & list..... I'll just leave it at that..."not impressed". I guess I was hoping for something a little better than what I saw. Maybe it's not fair to compare BLI's J1e to Rivarossi's C&O Allegheny or P2K Steam Heritage's new Berkshire but thats just the way modelers are. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Thorndale Coal wharf Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:58:47 +0000 There was mention of the Throndale coal wharf in discussion in the past couple of weeks. I was just leafing through old Keystones and there is a picture in the winter 1991 issue showing the entire elevated structure with three H21's on top. N. Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 09:07:07 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Speaking of E Units... From: Jerry Britton Seems like just yesterday we were talking about EMD E units...okay, it was yesterday! Although Life Like doesn't show anything on their web site, Walthers is showing a new run of HO scale E8's...but no Pennsy!!! http://www.walthers.com/exec/newproducts/cr/200208/Locomotive ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:15:02 -0500 Did I miss something? The ad I saw for the E7s did not mention producing on based on the PRR. -----Original Message----- From: zootowerprr@webtv.net [mailto:zootowerprr@webtv.net] Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 6:08 PM To: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines Hey Bruce...... I don't want more, I want it ALL! And some railroad model companies give thier all. A $200 plastic E-7 sounds like a lot of money even with sound. I saw the NYC J1e and I must say I wasn't impressed. Athearn-Genesis,Kato,and Life-Like P2K Steam Heritage lead the pack in plastic models. Some may disagree. I must agree with the earlier post about "announcing a 4th model when the first isn't out yet" theme. I'm just a PRR "rivet counter". I don't ask for much,just all of it! :-) "Dave sez" I LOVE THIS PRR LIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:20:44 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines >Todd & list..... > > I'll just leave it at that..."not impressed". I guess I was hoping >for something a little better than what I saw. > Maybe it's not fair to compare BLI's J1e to Rivarossi's C&O >Allegheny or P2K Steam Heritage's new Berkshire but thats just the way >modelers are. > > Dave So Dave, I think I FINALLY understand...you would be happier if BLI charged $150 more, and the loco didn't come with sound or DCC, had traction tires like the Allegheny and, in the case of the recent Marklin/Trix Big Boy, had radically undersized drivers. ;^) I keep repeating myself here...for the price you CANNOT expect the detail of a P2K loco...that is completely unreasonable. I'm just tickled pink that an accurate plastic M1a is coming. I can "trick it out" with more details if I like. Would I like the detail of a P2K steamer? SURE, and I realize that when combined with sound and DCC that loco is gonna list for $500+...how many you gonna buy now? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Speaking of E Units... Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:34:21 +0000 Jerry and the List: Too bad. I was really hoping for 2 PRR E-8's in Brunswick Green (Pre-1952). Ted Andrews >From: Jerry Britton >To: PRR-Talk LIST >Subject: [PRR] Speaking of E Units... >Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 09:07:07 -0400 > >Seems like just yesterday we were talking about EMD E units...okay, it was >yesterday! > >Although Life Like doesn't show anything on their web site, Walthers is >showing a new run of HO scale E8's...but no Pennsy!!! > > http://www.walthers.com/exec/newproducts/cr/200208/Locomotive >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 09:34:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Speaking of E Units... From: Jerry Britton On 8/14/02 9:30 AM, Dennis @ D & S Hobbies (dennis@onerrave.com) wrote: > No Pennsy......yet!!!!! And they are making the E-8B unit to boot. > Uh, this is the Pennsy...we don't need no stinkin' B units!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:01:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines --part1_f7.1fbd4192.2a8bbcbc_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/14/2002 9:30:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > I keep repeating myself here...for the price you CANNOT expect the detail > of a P2K loco...that is completely unreasonable. I'm just tickled pink > that an accurate plastic M1a is coming. I can "trick it out" with more > details if I like. Would I like the detail of a P2K steamer? SURE, and I > realize that when combined with sound and DCC that loco is gonna list for > $500+...how many you gonna buy now? > Bruce, I haven't been following the threads on the J, so what is missing as far as detail goes? Todd --part1_f7.1fbd4192.2a8bbcbc_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/14/2002 9:30:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes:


I keep repeating myself here...for the price you CANNOT expect the detail
of a P2K loco...that is completely unreasonable.  I'm just tickled pink
that an accurate plastic M1a is coming.  I can "trick it out" with more
details if I like.  Would I like the detail of a P2K steamer?  SURE, and I
realize that when combined with sound and DCC that loco is gonna list for
$500+...how many you gonna buy now?


Bruce, I haven't been following the threads on the J, so what is missing as far as detail goes? Todd --part1_f7.1fbd4192.2a8bbcbc_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] BLI M1 Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:17:41 +0000 Since all they are showing is prototype photos aren't we jumping the gun a little assuming that everything will be up to snuff shape wise? Not being an NYC fan I can't tell you if the J1 is accurate or not but it is no gauruntee subsequent models will be accurate. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] BLI J1 Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 18:17:14 +0000 This review was on Trains.com website. Either they got a hand picked preproduction model or they are being released. NB Broadway Limited turns to a classic Hudson for its first release The New York Central class J-1e Hudson with sound runs on DC or DCC Broadway Limited Imports’ initial offering in its Paragon line is an HO scale New York Central J-1e Hudson that will run on either conventional DC or DCC. Broadway Limited’s much-anticipated HO scale New York Central class J-1e Hudson is here, and it’s sure to be the subject of much discussion among modelers, regardless of whether they’re fans of the Water Level Route. The plastic-and-metal ready-to-run locomotive features a built-in decoder that automatically senses if a DCC signal is present across the rails and automatically switches to either DCC or conventional DC operation, whichever is appropriate. In addition, it includes an innovative sound system that operates in either mode, and a bell and whistle that can be controlled via the direction switch in analog operation. (For more on how this feature operates, click on the link below for a Trains of Thought special feature by Tony Koester.) All of New York Central’s Hudsons were renowned, but no. 5344 was the queen of the fleet. It was not only the last of the Central’s famed J-1s, but it was later streamlined – twice. Its first shroud was for its service as the Commodore Vanderbilt, and its second was as the only member of class J-1 to receive the bullet- nosed gray shroud designed by Henry Dreyfuss for the 1938 version of the 20th Century Limited. It ended its service unstreamlined, but with Scullin disc drivers and a PT-class “centipede” tender. Its most famous role, however, may have been as the prototype for The Lionel Corp.’s prewar O scale Hudson, arguably the most significant model locomotive in history. Broadway Limited offers its model in three versions – as no. 5343, as no. 5344, and undecorated. Because only NYC nos. 5343 and 5344 received roller bearings on their driving (invisible on a model) and tender axles, the model is correct as delivered for only those two locomotives. With solid-bearing tender trucks, it could also represent nos. 5315-5342. A different tender would be required for it to represent one of the Big Four’s J-1e locomotives. Our sample came neatly painted as no. 5344 in its pre- Commodore days. The paint is neatly applied, but some of the plastic details are unpainted and contrast with the boiler. The metal running gear is quite handsome, and preliminary tests indicate that the model runs as advertised. The sound quality is good, and the tender features two downward-firing speakers. For a full report on this model, including performance testing, see the November 2002 issue of Model Railroader. – Terry Thompson, Editor, Model Railroader ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:28:20 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI J1 From: Jerry Britton On 8/14/02 2:17 PM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > This review was on Trains.com website. Either they got > a hand picked preproduction model or they are being > released. NB > They may indeed have one of the "regular" production units. They were/are supposed to ship this month. Note that the review is really just a teaser for the November issue, with no real "nuts and bolts" testing included. Since we just got the October issue last week, guess we have to wait another 3-4 weeks to find out if the unit passes muster. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:01:21 -0400 Subject: [PRR] The Intimidating Helix From: Jerry Britton I thought I'd share a few thoughts over the main list, in addition to my layout's list, about helix construction. My layout features three helixes. I had never built a helix before and it was quite an intimidating road block to getting the layout going. Thanks to a few fellow railroaders -- including Stan Ebersole in Emigsville who let me climb around inside his -- I composited everyone's pros and cons of design and came up with an adaptation of my own. Although I am only on the second turn, progress is rapid at this point. My helix has a rise of 4" per turn. The key to my design was to create a totally level "base" for the helix to sit on. The 1/2" plywood subroadbed is cut 1.5" wider than the roadbed on both sides. The roadbed is 1/2" homasote. This leaves a vertical clearance of 3". (Remember, I am in N scale!) The key to the design is that every 1/8 turn on the first turn a riser is placed. Each riser is 1/2" higher than the previous riser. By the time you get one turn around, you are 4" higher than the base. Once the first turn is installed, work goes much faster. With the 1/2" of plywood subroadbed for each new layer, a consistent rise of 3.5" is needed. This happens to be the dimension of a 2"x4" on edge. So I just insert scrap blocks of 2"x4"'s every 15" or so. These sit on the edges of the plywood that protrudes from the roadbed. Works great! My helix is five tracks and I can now do a 1/2 turn, with wiring, in about 3 hours. The result? One loco (Atlas Trainmaster) can pull 21 cars (Bowser H21a's) onto the helix at about 35% power. To maintain the climb, power needs to increase to about 50% power. Not bad considering this is a PRR layout and will feature 3-4 units at head! Another test: I positioned a decently weighted InterMountain tank car on the track at the top of the helix. It held its position, reaffirming that the grade was not too great. With a gentle nudge, it went down the helix smoothly, all the way to the bottom, maintaining a consistent speed. Sweet! The construction task I was dreading has now taken on the mood of "easy", though still time consuming. In just a few weeks I expect to be laying track into the south end of Harrisburg! ;-) I'll have updated pics posted soon. But you can look at month old photos, the layout design, join the layout mailing list, etc., at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:01:45 -0400 From: Godfrey Hall Subject: [PRR] J1 Hudson Now that I have had a chance to "play" with 2 different BLI Hudsons, I am pleased with the results. We all have our own levels of excellence and this model is well within mine. Two of our local hobby shops have samples lettered "not for resale"on the tenders, but who knows. the stores have been told that the models lettered for Toronto Hamilton & Buffalo Ry will be in stores in Sept., & and the rest in Oct. - godfrey hall ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Subject: [PRR] BLI Sound vs Aristo Craft R/C throttles Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:57:06 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007F_01C243AB.3D1EC310 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does any one know how the BLI sound system will work on the popular = Aristo-Craft R/C throttles? It is my understanding the BLI sound system responds to changing the DC = polarity while running. I think the R/C throttles ramp through zero for = a polarity change while underway. Has anybody tried this? Fred Rea ------=_NextPart_000_007F_01C243AB.3D1EC310 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does any one know how the BLI sound = system will=20 work on the popular Aristo-Craft R/C throttles?
 
It is my understanding the BLI sound = system=20 responds to changing the DC polarity while running.  I think the = R/C=20 throttles ramp through zero for a polarity change while = underway.
 
Has anybody tried this?
 
Fred Rea
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_007F_01C243AB.3D1EC310-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: RE: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 16:59:40 -0400 I have heard a couple reports from those who have seen a much more recent sample, within the past couple weeks. They seemed to be very impressed with the engine. It had very good pulling power and the sound was very nice. I seriously doubt that we have much to worry about with BLI being a "scam." My guess is that the amount of research, development, and production cost of just the samples of the J1e are probably very high. I think we all need to take a deep breath and take a good look at the J1e when it comes out. We should all be happy that a company is planning to make a Pennsy engine in plastic with sound! Many manufacturers seem to be reticent to make engines that ran on one road only unless it is a name articulated. Yet many seem ready to bury them based on a preproduction sample and a delay in their very first engine. I for one am impressed that they are taking the time to get their first engine right and were willing to show us a sample even though they knew it would not pull well. I sometimes wonder if some individuals are concerned about losing money they have invested on their brass engines. As for me, I would like to see a J1a, an I1sa, and a P5a. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 19:11:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited engines Bruce & List........... I'll stick with the 1960s PRR. Geeps,SD45s,and Alcos. And here's the best part. I have a sound chip in my head. Only I can hear it when my trains are running. I"m going to buy 8 BLI E-7s when they come out. I'll use them on my 60s era mail trains. :-) "Dave sez" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] BLI J1 Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:28:02 -0400 "Please, think before you make unwarranted accusations" Gregg- I only made a statement. We are entitled to our opinions. Heck, the way BLI is promoted, I would thing a few of you list members have some small fortunes invested in the company. The main reason for my initial statement is because of the "hype" surrounding this company and its products. I am truly interested in Pennsy steam. With their prices, I am very interested. After the results come in on the J(track test), I will make a decision to purchase an "M", if their are any left! That will be my luck. I would like to see nothing more than a new company succeed, but don't keep announcing new products when the first one is not at market yet. A few years ago, I thought I would never see steam make a comeback the way it has. This resurgence in steam has put a sock in the mouth of a few anti-steam members at a club I belong to. Ironically, a few jumped aboard to buy the C&O Allegheny. Hopefully, this trend will last a good more years. Can't stand to see a block on wheels gliding down the tracks. How about the QSI sound units for sale separately? That is of interest to me. The sound wave I heard on the net sounds good. Anyone have info on QSI and sound units? Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gregg Mahlkov Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 3:54 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Fw: [PRR] BLI J1 Jerry, Er, are you getting your magazines a month ahead of eveyone else? I know advertisers get copies a couple of weeks early, but a month? I just got September's MR last Friday and you already have October?. BTW, someone in Harrisburg has 2 N Scale Baldwin BP-20 shells for sale on eBay.. Tried to send you the auction but it wouldn't go through. Search on Baldwin BP-20" in the N scale category if you're interested. Since the subject is the BLI J1e, I'd like to offer my thoughts on some of the remarks made on PRR Talk. First, since no one can "manipulate the market" in railroad models as there is no monopoly, and AFAIK stock options are not available as no model railroad firm is large enough to be publicly traded, I fail to see how anyone can "smell an Enron". I do not know the people involved in Broadway Limited Inc. but I really think chicanery and theft are the last things on their mind. Overoptimism and lack of business acumen, possibly. Yes, there are a few crooks in business, as that bunch from Coudersport, PA, can attest, but far more fortunes have been lost to sheer stupidity than were ever lost to fraud and deceit. OTOH, I suppose some of you think that the PRR was run by a bunch of crooks and that's why PC bankrupted. Or was it just the NYC guys that were crooks? Please, think before you make unwarranted accusations.. I'll get off my soapbox.................. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" > To: ; "PRR-Talk LIST" > Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 2:28 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI J1 > > > > On 8/14/02 2:17 PM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > > > > > This review was on Trains.com website. Either they got > > > a hand picked preproduction model or they are being > > > released. NB > > > > > They may indeed have one of the "regular" production units. They were/are > > supposed to ship this month. > > > > Note that the review is really just a teaser for the November issue, with > no > > real "nuts and bolts" testing included. Since we just got the October > issue > > last week, guess we have to wait another 3-4 weeks to find out if the unit > > passes muster. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Thorndale Coal wharf Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 21:30:45 -0400 Were any Keystones done on Thorndale? Yard Track Plans? Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 8:59 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Thorndale Coal wharf There was mention of the Throndale coal wharf in discussion in the past couple of weeks. I was just leafing through old Keystones and there is a picture in the winter 1991 issue showing the entire elevated structure with three H21's on top. N. Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:38:06 -0400 From: John W Rosenbauer Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Sound vs Aristo Craft R/C throttles > Fred Rea wrote: > > Does any one know how the BLI sound system will work on the popular > Aristo-Craft R/C throttles? > > It is my understanding the BLI sound system responds to changing the > DC polarity while running. I think the R/C throttles ramp through > zero for a polarity change while underway. Aristo Train Engineer RC controllers use pulse width modulation to control speed. The output is a square wave from 0V to inputV at I believe about 25KHz. Varing the width of these pulses controls speed. Slow _[]___[]___[]__ Meduim_[-]__[-]__[-]__ Fast _[--]_[--]_[--]_ In largescale(1/29)input is typically 18 to 24 VDC. Polarity only changes when you push the reverse button to go the other way. Some sound systems see the pulses as full throttle and run wide open all the time. John W Rosenbauer --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Citizens Internet Services with Declude Virus v 1.57] ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Sound vs Aristo Craft R/C throttles Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:53:51 -0400 John and the list: Thanks John. I was only concerned about the ramping from forward to reverse. If I hit "change direction" while at speed a train slows down, then reverses. It is a ramping down of the output, not inertia. You can see the on-board lights (not on constant brightness circuits) dim, then get bright again. That would prevent using a rapid reversal to control things. Now that you point out they may be sensing the peak rather than the average voltage it sounds pretty bad for the entire sound system. A big downer for me. Operation on my layout is predicated on having wireless throttles. I was hoping to get at least a M1a and a T1, and hoping they might do a PRR J1. I'll keep my M order in place but keep looking for someone who has actually tried this combination. Fred Rea ----- Original Message ----- From: "John W Rosenbauer" Cc: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 10:38 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Sound vs Aristo Craft R/C throttles > > > > Fred Rea wrote: > > > > Does any one know how the BLI sound system will work on the popular > > Aristo-Craft R/C throttles? > > > > It is my understanding the BLI sound system responds to changing the > > DC polarity while running. I think the R/C throttles ramp through > > zero for a polarity change while underway. > > > Aristo Train Engineer RC controllers use pulse width modulation to > control speed. > > The output is a square wave from 0V to inputV at I believe about 25KHz. > > Varing the width of these pulses controls speed. > > Slow _[]___[]___[]__ Meduim_[-]__[-]__[-]__ Fast _[--]_[--]_[--]_ > > In largescale(1/29)input is typically 18 to 24 VDC. > > Polarity only changes when you push the reverse button to go the other > way. > > Some sound systems see the pulses as full throttle and run wide open > all the time. > > John W Rosenbauer > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Citizens Internet Services with Declude Virus v 1.57] > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 05:04:25 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: [PRR] Enola yard, circa 1955 question Hello all. I am trying to further my understanding of how Enola yard worked in the mid 1950's. I understand it had an east-bound hump and a west-bound hump. My question is regarding trains coming from the Maryland Division (B series) and trains such as the York (YE) local. Unless I'm wrong (and please tell me if I am), they had cars both east-bound (for places like Lancaster) and west-bound. How were these seperated out? Did the entire train run over the west-bound hump since it came from the "east"? Thanks in advance for any help. Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 08:17:33 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: BLI Sound vs Aristo Craft R/C throttles I use the Aristo RC as one of my O scale throttles. It has the option of a pure DC output, varying from 0 to max volts. The downside of DC mode is that there is no pulse to help motors that need it, start. Better can motors do well on pure DC. The downside of the Pulse Width Modulation mode is the high output voltage and the pulses themselves. Even on a locomotive with directional lighting, all the lights come on! A friend had his RDC car running on a nearby club that uses these throttles; one of the headlights exploded while the car was runnning. My railroad is equipped with Bruce Chubb's C/MRI system. The spikes from this throttle seriously interfere with the system, causing the block relays to drop out repeatedly, among other glitches. If the Aristo PWM causes problems you always have the option of pure DC output, selected by a switch on the base unit. As John Rosenbauer said, "Polarity only changes when you push the reverse button to go the other way." The voltage ramps down, polarity changes, and the output ramps up again. Steve Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] BLI Sound vs Aristo Craft R/C throttles From: "John W Rosenbauer" Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 22:38:06 -0400 > Fred Rea wrote: > > Does any one know how the BLI sound system will work on the popular > Aristo-Craft R/C throttles? > > It is my understanding the BLI sound system responds to changing the > DC polarity while running. I think the R/C throttles ramp through > zero for a polarity change while underway. Aristo Train Engineer RC controllers use pulse width modulation to control speed. The output is a square wave from 0V to inputV at I believe about 25KHz. Varing the width of these pulses controls speed. Slow _[]___[]___[]__ Meduim_[-]__[-]__[-]__ Fast _[--]_[--]_[--]_ In largescale(1/29)input is typically 18 to 24 VDC. Polarity only changes when you push the reverse button to go the other way. Some sound systems see the pulses as full throttle and run wide open all the time. John W Rosenbauen ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 09:01:46 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] Thorndale Coal wharf >Were any Keystones done on Thorndale? Yard Track Plans? > >Greg V Greg, There was one quite a few years back that had a "Thorndale Photo Album" but it was mostly pictures of locos. In the background of a number of shots you can see the FM ash/coal towers I was talking about earlier. Perhaps the best source of pictures and diagrams of Thorndale is Triumph II. A track diagram is on line at Jerry's site http://kc.pennsyrr.com/maps/downloads/tc_phil_19xxA.pdf and on Mark Bej's site you can find the interlocking diagram for Thorn, Caln and Downs at http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/thorn.gif Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Thorndale Coal wharf Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 10:12:33 -0400 The PRRT&HS book on Lewistown has a chapter with track plan for the Denholm coal wharf, and I understand that it and Thorndale were virtually identical. There are shots of Thorndale in some of the PRR videos - Digital Image Works has one and there is another somewhere that I don't recall (another in a continuing series of senior moments). Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII\ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." To: ; Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 9:30 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Thorndale Coal wharf > Were any Keystones done on Thorndale? Yard Track Plans? > > Greg V > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > ndbprr@att.net > Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 8:59 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Thorndale Coal wharf > > > There was mention of the Throndale coal wharf in > discussion in the past couple of weeks. I was just > leafing through old Keystones and there is a picture in > the winter 1991 issue showing the entire elevated > structure with three H21's on top. N. Bell > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 14:41:46 -0400 Subject: [PRR] BLI Review From: Jerry Britton Tony's Train Exchange has posted a review of the BLI NYC J1e Hudson... http://www.ttx-dcc.com/technews/brdwy_ltd_nyc.htm ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:43:02 EDT Subject: [PRR] Source of PRR Information I've noticed several request about PRR information, e.g., ice houses, coaling stations, track lay outs, etc. and am reminded of a source of information that might not be widely known. When I worked for the Pennsy, I was a "labor skate." I represented the company in matters of grievances and time cards against all of the Pennsy's unions. At some locations, it was the operating unions, at others, the non-ops and toward the end, against all. (I took my Railway Labor Act experience to a mjor airline and had a very nice career there.) Many grievances that couldn't be resolved went to the National Railway Adjustment Board (NRAB) for final and binding arbitration. The NRAB decisions, issued by Division, according to the type of union covered, were printed in black legal books. It was the style of both sides to make the presentations as extensive as possible, so each published case generally had a very extensive fact description along with as much contextual material as possible. The disciplinary cases included extensive description and historical practice. The cases I remember that I found especially interesting involved the engineers (BLE, BLF&E) disciplined fore "making excessive smoke" and the station baggagemen (BRAC) disciplined for "standing caskets on end." So, if you wanted to know about yard limits at a particular location, how the wash rack operated at Sunnyside Yard, what the jurisdiction of a particular signal tower might have been, the significance of the "west portal of Gould tunnel," what a fireman on a coal burning tug (the "Altoona") was paid when it replaced a diesel fired tug, hostler service, switching across a main, and so on, the NRAB decisions should certainly be a source of information. While I've not searched diligently, I've not been able to find the decisions on the internet and it has been many years since I saw one of the volumes of decisions. The old Pennsy decisions are out there, I'm just not sure where. If any one is that interested and is able to tracks NRAB decisions down, please post where/how you found them. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:10:37 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Source of PRR Information Greetings to Marty and the List: Conrail officials at the shops in Altoona donated a collection of these books to the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. The museum had an archivist/intern who was cataloguing these but he left to go to law school about the same time that the museum's financial crunch arrived, and he was not replaced. I'm sure that these books will be sorted and made available in the future, but right now would not be the best time to inquire while Cummins M., Andy M., and the other staff and committee members are focusing on reorganizing and keeping the doors open. Dan Cupper LAMAassoc@aol.com wrote: > > I've noticed several request about PRR information, e.g., ice houses, coaling > stations, track lay outs, etc. and am reminded of a source of information > that might not be widely known. > > When I worked for the Pennsy, I was a "labor skate." I represented the > company in matters of grievances and time cards against all of the Pennsy's > unions. At some locations, it was the operating unions, at others, the > non-ops and toward the end, against all. (I took my Railway Labor Act > experience to a mjor airline and had a very nice career there.) > > Many grievances that couldn't be resolved went to the National Railway > Adjustment Board (NRAB) for final and binding arbitration. The NRAB > decisions, issued by Division, according to the type of union covered, were > printed in black legal books. It was the style of both sides to make the > presentations as extensive as possible, so each published case generally had > a very extensive fact description along with as much contextual material as > possible. > > The disciplinary cases included extensive description and historical > practice. The cases I remember that I found especially interesting involved > the engineers (BLE, BLF&E) disciplined fore "making excessive smoke" and the > station baggagemen (BRAC) disciplined for "standing caskets on end." So, if > you wanted to know about yard limits at a particular location, how the wash > rack operated at Sunnyside Yard, what the jurisdiction of a particular signal > tower might have been, the significance of the "west portal of Gould > tunnel," what a fireman on a coal burning tug (the "Altoona") was paid when > it replaced a diesel fired tug, hostler service, switching across a main, and > so on, the NRAB decisions should certainly be a source of information. > > While I've not searched diligently, I've not been able to find the decisions > on the internet and it has been many years since I saw one of the volumes of > decisions. The old Pennsy decisions are out there, I'm just not sure where. > > If any one is that interested and is able to tracks NRAB decisions down, > please post where/how you found them. > > Regards, > > Marty > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:39:51 -0400 From: davep Subject: [PRR] Coal > How about millions of years since it Coal is a 'them', with a range of properties, depending on what type. > is exposed to nearly everything in the ground including > heat, water and various minerals. Varies with location. 'production' of coals requires more or less isolation from a great many things. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:52:58 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports - Straight From The President! From: Jerry Britton Got a letter from Broadway Limited Imports today (as a dealer). The letter was dated Aug. 12. I am sharing it here as it provides some info on the status of the company and the product line... ----(snip)---- "By now, our demonstrator models of the NYC J1e 4-6-4 have been shipped, and at the National Train Show in Ft. Lauderdale, FL they performed flawlessly for about 20,000 visitors. "While the project has run into some delays, it has been strictly a case of factory scheduling. We were a bit too optimistic when we issued our first announcements, but never-the-less have succeeded in presenting a 'break-through' product to the market. "Our first steam locomotive project has finally reached the production stage. The factory is getting ready to start making parts and do the assembly in earnest, a project which is expected to be completed in October of this year. "We therefore need to specify our final production quantities to the factory and will do so by Aug. 19th. "All advance orders for item numbers 10-001, 10-002 & 10-003 [the NYC J1e's] received by Aug. 19th will be guaranteed, but those received afterwards will be on a stand-by basis." ----(snip)---- The letter continues with some dealer particulars and is signed by Anton Wenzel, president. So, if anyone wants a NYC J1e, see your BLI-authorized dealer ASAP! The enclosed product listing also shows the N&W Class A and the PRR Class M1a/M1b as due in "Early 2003". The list includes the recently advertised EMD E7 units and shows them as due "in 2003". They have also announced the part numbers and road numbers for the PRR T1, due in 2003, as well as a USRA 2-8-2 Heavy for 2003. Again, see your BLI-authorized dealer for info and reservations. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 00:29:44 EDT Subject: [PRR] Very Specail Brnachline Car Prices Hey Yuze Gize, I just bought 7, new in the box, Branchline 50-foot box cars at lunch today (via a friend and his cell phone) at Longs Drugs for the low down dirty price of $3.97 per car. It's not on their website so call them. The roadnames were limited but what a deal and he (my friend) told me they had about 100 kits left. Some of the known roadnames were MONON, P&E, NYC, MEC, B&O, C&O some General American cars, Wabash ... and more. He told me there were no Pennsy cars, but build your fleet. So go get'um! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 08:29:10 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Very Specail Brnachline Car Prices While this may be a great bargain, I fear that it is a sign of yet another retailer throwing in the towel on kits! The whole world seems to be going RTR. Many manufacturers no longer make kits, Kadee never did, I/M hasn't announced one in a long time. I like building my trains. To me its a large part of the hobby. I already own over 600 cars and really don't need to buy more just to own them. I buy kits that are fun to build. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Hey Yuze Gize, > > I just bought 7, new in the box, Branchline 50-foot box cars at lunch today > (via a friend and his cell phone) at Longs Drugs for the low down dirty price > of $3.97 per car. It's not on their website so call them. The roadnames were > limited but what a deal and he (my friend) told me they had about 100 kits > left. Some of the known roadnames were MONON, P&E, NYC, MEC, B&O, C&O some > General American cars, Wabash ... and more. He told me there were no Pennsy > cars, but build your fleet. > > So go get'um! > > Greg Martin > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 08:40:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Very Specail Brnachline Car Prices From: Jerry Britton On 8/16/02 8:29 AM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > While this may be a great bargain, I fear that it is a sign of yet another > retailer throwing in the towel on kits! The whole world seems to be going > RTR. > Many manufacturers no longer make kits, Kadee never did, I/M hasn't announced > one > in a long time. I like building my trains. To me its a large part of the > hobby. I already own over 600 cars and really don't need to buy more just to > own > them. I buy kits that are fun to build. > IM usually announces one new kit per month, while releasing 5-7 RtR cars. In N scale there is a kit every other month or so, and 4-6 RtR per month. That doesn't mean every retailer offers them, it just means IM offers them. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:00:22 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Life Like to Re-Run PRR Class HH-1 From: Jerry Britton Life Like Heritage Series is re-running the HO scale 2-8-8-2's that are PRR's Class HH-1, purchased from the N&W. If you missed out on the first run, here's your chance. Contact your dealer of choice soon, as they are due to ship this September! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like to Re-Run PRR Class HH-1 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:21:18 -0400 I contacted Life Like regarding the "rerun". The 2-8-8-2's are part of the last run that were still in the warehouse. They are also "re-releasing" the last run of GP30's including the B&O and Reading units. It seems that the units were not a "scarce" as the distribution network would have you believe. It seems that most distributors are only ordering quantities that they have on preorder - with none ordered for their warehouse. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 9:00 AM Subject: [PRR] Life Like to Re-Run PRR Class HH-1 > Life Like Heritage Series is re-running the HO scale 2-8-8-2's that are > PRR's Class HH-1, purchased from the N&W. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:24:45 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Very Specail Brnachline Car Prices Larry, That's where I get my "exercise" ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Larry M Olsen wrote: > I agree with Andy. Kit building for me is one of the enjoyment of the hobby as well > as a good 'therapy' after a hard day. Except looking for the small parts that fall > onto the floor. > > "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > > > While this may be a great bargain, I fear that it is a sign of yet another > > retailer throwing in the towel on kits! The whole world seems to be going RTR. > > Many manufacturers no longer make kits, Kadee never did, I/M hasn't announced one > > in a long time. I like building my trains. To me its a large part of the > > hobby. I already own over 600 cars and really don't need to buy more just to own > > them. I buy kits that are fun to build. > > > > Regards, > > > > Andy Miller > > asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:35:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] "Ready to Run" vs Kits PRR List........... I must agree with Mr. Miller thread that kits maybe a thing of the past(on certain freight cars). But ever since InterMountain and Kadee introduced thier RTR freight cars, it's hard not to buy one. I bought two 60s era 60' boxcars from I/M. These super detail freight cars are hard to pass up. Thats seems to be the trend in model railroading. I understand that these RTR cars are hurting the decal industry. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Engines Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:38:26 +0000 Having just read Jerry's post about the 2-8-8-2 I wonder how many of us have an actual plan for purchasing locomotives and rolling stock? I have finally started to look at engine requirements and classes fairly seriously. For example, I really had to talk myself out of Stewarts first Baldwin offering since it was so rare on the PRR (8 total) but the S12 is far more typical and will be purchased probably in multiples. Then there are the G's. Can one ever have too many G's? Steam I am attempting to limit to one of each class as they would have been pretty much history in the Philadelphia area in the late 50's except for PRSL trains on rare occasions. J's, Q's, T1's, C1, S and the swoosh unfortunately can not be run prototypically but then neither can my E60CF's, E60CP's and AEM7 or my modern diesels which I pull out on occasion in a back to the future scenario. I have resisted the urge to get a 2-8- 8-2 as it never ran in the Philly area and is not a PRR prototype from Altoona. Many posts have talked about the ratio of rolling stock classes to be prototypical. How many of us really have the fortitude to be truly prototypical? Or are we all impulse buying suckers for whatever the manufacturers want us to buy this time? Can one ever have too many trains? (looking for a reason to justify buying a 2-8-8-2 against all common sense) Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:56:20 EDT Subject: [PRR] Very Special Branchline Car Prices In a message dated 8/16/02 7:35:22 AM Central Daylight Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << While this may be a great bargain, I fear that it is a sign of yet another retailer throwing in the towel on kits! >> I hope not, Andy, but I fear you may be right. Why should I pay double the price to someone to do the fun part? I have been fortunate to pick up a couple outstanding kits through guys on the Railroad Modeler list, and I have bought and sold some great kits on eBay, but eventually we'll all run out of our "stash". Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] Kits Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:03:31 -0400 Group, I agree with Andy, What is the fun of giving up your money and it is over. No anticipation of getting the kit home and getting started on it. Making sure all the details are properly located. Painting, Decaling. I am not a fan of any of the RTR engines or cars. To me I loose the fun in the hobby. I know there is a bunch of people out there that bash Bowser but I thrive on their engines. My K4 with Disk drivers is a challenge to me. I get so much enjoyment out of "Fixing" the problems. I am working out an idea right now to correct the runningboards on this engine it didn't have the step. But this is just my opinion. Thanks for listening! Sam Vastano >From: "Andrew S. Miller" >To: TGREGMRTN@aol.com >CC: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] Very Specail Brnachline Car Prices >Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 08:29:10 -0400 > >While this may be a great bargain, I fear that it is a sign of yet another >retailer throwing in the towel on kits! The whole world seems to be going >RTR. >Many manufacturers no longer make kits, Kadee never did, I/M hasn't >announced one >in a long time. I like building my trains. To me its a large part of the >hobby. I already own over 600 cars and really don't need to buy more just >to own >them. I buy kits that are fun to build. > >Regards, > >Andy Miller >asmiller@mitre.org > >================================================== >TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > > > Hey Yuze Gize, > > > > I just bought 7, new in the box, Branchline 50-foot box cars at lunch >today > > (via a friend and his cell phone) at Longs Drugs for the low down dirty >price > > of $3.97 per car. It's not on their website so call them. The roadnames >were > > limited but what a deal and he (my friend) told me they had about 100 >kits > > left. Some of the known roadnames were MONON, P&E, NYC, MEC, B&O, C&O >some > > General American cars, Wabash ... and more. He told me there were no >Pennsy > > cars, but build your fleet. > > > > So go get'um! > > > > Greg Martin > > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Sam _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Engines Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:08:47 -0400 Norm, One can never have too many trains. (He who dies with the most toys wins!) Actually I think it depends on the person. I once was talking to a member of The Keystone Model Railroad club, He had his PRR brass steam loco collection out on the table. He told me he was trying to get a model of every class/sub-class steam loco the PRR had. I believe at the time he had 3 left to get but he told me he didn't think that they would ever be made. They were very obscure if I remember. For him he could probably justify any purchase. For those of us modeling a specific area and time (like Jerry) its a lot harder. Then their are those modeling what I call "generic" Pennsy, no specific time or place its' easier for them. But again its your hobby and you should have fun and do what you like. Whose to say that in your miniature world a T1 didn't run into Manhattan Transfer in 1957. After all if your not actually going to string model catenary how can you justify having electrics. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 9:38 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Engines Having just read Jerry's post about the 2-8-8-2 I wonder how many of us have an actual plan for purchasing locomotives and rolling stock? I have finally started to look at engine requirements and classes fairly seriously. For example, I really had to talk myself out of Stewarts first Baldwin offering since it was so rare on the PRR (8 total) but the S12 is far more typical and will be purchased probably in multiples. Then there are the G's. Can one ever have too many G's? Steam I am attempting to limit to one of each class as they would have been pretty much history in the Philadelphia area in the late 50's except for PRSL trains on rare occasions. J's, Q's, T1's, C1, S and the swoosh unfortunately can not be run prototypically but then neither can my E60CF's, E60CP's and AEM7 or my modern diesels which I pull out on occasion in a back to the future scenario. I have resisted the urge to get a 2-8- 8-2 as it never ran in the Philly area and is not a PRR prototype from Altoona. Many posts have talked about the ratio of rolling stock classes to be prototypical. How many of us really have the fortitude to be truly prototypical? Or are we all impulse buying suckers for whatever the manufacturers want us to buy this time? Can one ever have too many trains? (looking for a reason to justify buying a 2-8-8-2 against all common sense) Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Very Specail Brnachline Car Prices Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:18:04 -0400 FWIW, Branchline has been investigating having their cars assembled. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 90A Jersey Avenue New Brunswick, NJ 08901 732-565-1555 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" To: "Larry M Olsen" Cc: ; Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 9:24 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Very Specail Brnachline Car Prices > Larry, > > That's where I get my "exercise" ;-) > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > Larry M Olsen wrote: > > > I agree with Andy. Kit building for me is one of the enjoyment of the hobby as well > > as a good 'therapy' after a hard day. Except looking for the small parts that fall > > onto the floor. > > > > "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > > > > > While this may be a great bargain, I fear that it is a sign of yet another > > > retailer throwing in the towel on kits! The whole world seems to be going RTR. > > > Many manufacturers no longer make kits, Kadee never did, I/M hasn't announced one > > > in a long time. I like building my trains. To me its a large part of the > > > hobby. I already own over 600 cars and really don't need to buy more just to own > > > them. I buy kits that are fun to build. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Andy Miller > > > asmiller@mitre.org > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:19:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Very Special Branchline Car Prices On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/16/02 7:35:22 AM Central Daylight Time, > asmiller@mitre.org writes: > > << While this may be a great bargain, I fear that it is a sign of yet another > retailer throwing in the towel on kits! >> I absolutely don't favor RTR over kits, though I am not averse to RTR. With that caveat... > I hope not, Andy, but I fear you may be right. Why should I pay double the > price to someone to do the fun part? Want to come over here and do the fun part for free? I have enough to keep you in "fun" for quite some time, and I don't seem to have said time... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:27:30 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Engines From: Jerry Britton On 8/16/02 10:08 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > Actually I think it depends on the person. I once was talking to a member > of The Keystone Model Railroad club, He had his PRR brass steam loco > collection out on the table. He told me he was trying to get a model of > every class/sub-class steam loco the PRR had. I believe at the time he had > 3 left to get but he told me he didn't think that they would ever be made. > They were very obscure if I remember. For him he could probably justify any > purchase. For those of us modeling a specific area and time (like Jerry) > its a lot harder. Then their are those modeling what I call "generic" > Pennsy, no specific time or place its' easier for them. But again its your > hobby and you should have fun and do what you like. Whose to say that in > your miniature world a T1 didn't run into Manhattan Transfer in 1957. After > all if your not actually going to string model catenary how can you justify > having electrics. It's not that hard to make a fleet based on time. My first step was to list all of the classes. Then I removed those that were built AFTER my time period. For example, the Diesel Cross Reference page on Keystone Crossings shows the year each class first appeared in the roster. That narrows it down greatly for diesels. Eventually the Steam Roster on my site will have the deroster date for all steam. I am working on that offline and will not be posting until complete. The other factor that affects choosing a time is paint scheme. For me, I wanted my passenger fleet to have both single side stripe and five stripe. I also wanted some of both DGLE and Tuscan. Single wide stripe started in 1954. Tuscan started in 1952. So I had to go for 1954 or after. Since steam ended in 1957, I picked the earliest year that met my diesel needs (1954) so I could have the greatest variety of steam. I do plan to flex a bit. I will purchase a Life Like 2-8-8-2 when they come out next spring. They were retired in 1949. If a K5 ever comes out, I'll likely snag one. I forget when they retired, but it was definitely before 1954. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:40:25 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Engines Norm asks: >Having just read Jerry's post about the 2-8-8-2 I wonder >how many of us have an actual plan for purchasing >locomotives and rolling stock? OK so count me as anal...I do. In modeling June 1944, I use the charts in the Hirmanski book for the ratios of steamers in the location I model...for example 1 H6sb:1 H8:30 H9. This cahrt also pointed out to me the need for more L1s locos and the M1as I have on order from BLI! In addition, I plan to have roughly 2 GG1s in freight service for every 3 P5As, and if possible the 2:1 ration of boxcabs to modifieds withing the P5A fleet (BLI, PLEASE do the P5A!!). As for freight cars, I'm estimating an active fleet of 500 for the layout. Since the PRR home road percentage was right around 50%, I'll need 250 PRR cars. They distribution is based on the actual car numbers for 1943-45 divided by 1000 (see http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/carclasses.html) with some leeway for additional cars not in the top 30 classes and extras for cars in the top classes in specific service (such as flats with war material). For foreign road cars, I am following the approximate percentages of the actual car fleet ownership...since the car service routing rules virtually evaporated during WWII. Thus, since UP had one of the largest fleets of house cars, I'll have a substantial nubmer of UP boxcars on the layout. Another example of this would be the flat car fleet with SP having the largest fleet by far. Of course, to accurately do all this, I'm heavily invested in resin kits and I spend a fair amount of time browsing the ORER ! >Or are we all impulse buying suckers for >whatever the manufacturers want us to buy this time? Can >one ever have too many trains? (looking for a reason to >justify buying a 2-8-8-2 against all common sense) Norm Of course, you do have to get a littel wild from time to time...just reserved a BLI T1 through Jerry's site...gotta to have one even if they are too modern for me...along those same lines, I have an FF2, and will most likely pick up a couple of E33s to do in PC or CR...and would certainly get a couple of E44s if they were to come out in plastic. They wouldn't run in ops sessions on the layout, but I could update the details and shoot pictures of them . Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:11:01 -0400 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Kits vs RTR, Engines & such Gentlemen, You guys have really hit some of my bottons this morning.. and I'm very grateful! I just had a strangely related experience in the hobby shop yesterday. My local dealer (who actually is friendly plus gives 20% discounts)had just gotten in my latest fix: Northeastern flooring, roofs, centersills, etc and a load of NERS and BCW parts. The dealer was unloading an incoming shipment that included, of all things, RTR Athearn cars. Ready to run Athearn! Not three minutes later a fella comes in and begins scooping them up, proclaiming how great the hobby was getting. Being a friendly sort, he asked me what I was going to do with all the sticks and do-dads I had piled up. I told him I'd recently gotten some old Walthers section sleepers and was going to try doing modernized versions, ala Pennsy, of the 12 and 14 section cars, as well as a modernized D78 version, etc. This guy actually began laughing and must have thought I was doing some sort of psych ward therapy. I wonder how typical this guy is becoming, where the idea of building even a ten minute Athearn car, let alone kitbashing, is beyond his abilaties and/or desires? To tell the truth, this shop only stocks IM in rtr versions, though he'll gladly order the kits. I imagine the manurfacturers increase their profit margins widely by having their cars assembled in Red China, which would add only marginally to the cost while doubling the price. But,as someone else pointed out, why pay somebody else, particularly someone whose government dispises my country, to build it for me? And the hit on the decal industry does indeed seem foreboding, if Champ is folding up rather than looking for a buyer to carry on. Engines are another interesting topic. Like Norm pointed out, do we really need all this? Personally, I don't care how many E units P2K and BLI, et al turn out, my old Model Power and Hobbytown grinders run just fine. And I should go out and buy T1's, Hudsons and such just because they're really nice? Naw. I've got plenty of kits and projects stacked up in the basement to last me, though I must admit I still scour the swap meets for classic era kits. And I keep gradually thinning down the not so hot older plastic cars to make room in the yard for Bowsers, Westerfields, Tichy and Branchline cars. Heck, I even enjoy the Huff & Puff wooden kits when I can find them, though most shops have never heard of such contraptions. But buying because it's new and nice? I dunno, I just can't see it. Leaves me half wondering if being such an old dinosaur is good or bad, but as long as the hobby makes a guy happy I guess it doesn't matter. I just have a suspicion that some of the new trends may be changing the popular face of the hobby and whether that's a baleful thing or not remains to be seen. Regards, Barry Peltier ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÅ¢¶¬²+-jwÂ+a¶¬–+-þ™^jǯŠÈ­†ÛiÿÿåŠËlýÛ(§÷( !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:27:38 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Kits vs RTR, Engines & such Having started this, I can see it has gone far enough for me to send out the reply I original sent only to Bob Zoeller: I can see the future now. For just twice the cost of a kit (no longer available) the manufacturer have the fun of building the car for you. For just three times the cost, he will store it (sorry "collect it") for you as well. You will be sent a Certificate of Ownership to hang on the wall of your train room to show all your friends just how much money you have spend on trains. The absence of any real models in the room will give you just that much more wall space for the certificates. You can arrange the certificates into interesting consists and discuss how prototypical they are with others on the internet. You can even buy and sell the certificates on eBay, saving substantial shipping cost and not needing the foto usually used in an auction since all certificates will look pretty much the same ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== BPX29@aol.com wrote: > Gentlemen, > You guys have really hit some of my bottons this morning.. and I'm very grateful! I just had a strangely related experience in the hobby shop yesterday. My local dealer (who actually is friendly plus gives 20% discounts)had just gotten in my latest fix: Northeastern flooring, roofs, centersills, etc and a load of NERS and BCW parts. The dealer was unloading an incoming shipment that included, of all things, RTR Athearn cars. Ready to run Athearn! Not three minutes later a fella comes in and begins scooping them up, proclaiming how great the hobby was getting. Being a friendly sort, he asked me what I was going to do with all the sticks and do-dads I had piled up. I told him I'd recently gotten some old Walthers section sleepers and was going to try doing modernized versions, ala Pennsy, of the 12 and 14 section cars, as well as a modernized D78 version, etc. This guy actually began laughing and must have thought I was doing some sort of psych ward therapy. > I wonder how typical this guy is becoming, where the idea of building even a ten minute Athearn car, let alone kitbashing, is beyond his abilaties and/or desires? To tell the truth, this shop only stocks IM in rtr versions, though he'll gladly order the kits. I imagine the manurfacturers increase their profit margins widely by having their cars assembled in Red China, which would add only marginally to the cost while doubling the price. But,as someone else pointed out, why pay somebody else, particularly someone whose government dispises my country, to build it for me? And the hit on the decal industry does indeed seem foreboding, if Champ is folding up rather than looking for a buyer to carry on. > > Engines are another interesting topic. Like Norm pointed out, do we really need all this? Personally, I don't care how many E units P2K and BLI, et al turn out, my old Model Power and Hobbytown grinders run just fine. And I should go out and buy T1's, Hudsons and such just because they're really nice? Naw. I've got plenty of kits and projects stacked up in the basement to last me, though I must admit I still scour the swap meets for classic era kits. And I keep gradually thinning down the not so hot older plastic cars to make room in the yard for Bowsers, Westerfields, Tichy and Branchline cars. Heck, I even enjoy the Huff & Puff wooden kits when I can find them, though most shops have never heard of such contraptions. But buying because it's new and nice? I dunno, I just can't see it. Leaves me half wondering if being such an old dinosaur is good or bad, but as long as the hobby makes a guy happy I guess it doesn't matter. I just have a suspicion that some of the new trends may be > changing the popular face of the hobby and whether that's a baleful thing or not remains to be seen. > Regards, > Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:46:26 -0400 Subject: [PRR] RtR vs. Kits From: Jerry Britton Just my two cents... Granted I am in N scale now, but my opinion holds true for even when I was in HO. I prefer Ready-to-Run, if the quality is good. For a layout of the size I want, I need hundreds of cars. Consider how much time it takes to build up a car of the caliber of Red Caboose, InterMountain, or Westerfield. Then multiply that by a few hundred times. Ouch! I'll be dead and buried by the time I get enough cars on the layout! I'd rather concentrate my time on building the layout, it's scenery and details, and fully exploiting the capabilities of DCC and dispatching. I suspect many others with larger layouts would tend to agree with me. I also suspect that many of those who prefer the kits fall into one of two categories: 1) currently not building a layout (for space, relocation, or other reasons), or 2) they have no layout, don't plan on building one, and participate at a club. To each their own... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:49:34 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Kits vs RTR, Engines & such Having poked my fun at RTR, I ought to temper my comments. I suppose if I were just starting out in the hobby and my model building skills were still being developed, I might want to fill in my roster with RTR equipment. Similarly, if I were building a layout and most of my construction time was being absorbed in benchwork, or wiring, or scenery, I might need to put off my car building pleasures to a later time and fill in my fleet with RTR. Alternately, if I just did not enjoy building trains (or was a total klutz), but loved railroads anyway, I might want to pay someone to build it all for me. Look at the growing number of ads for companies which will build the whole RR for you! My fear is that the sum of all these groups will kill the market for kits. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org This is weird. Its not often that I reply to my own e-mail! ================================================== "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > Having started this, I can see it has gone far enough for me to send out the reply I original sent only to Bob Zoeller: > > I can see the future now. For just twice the cost of a kit (no longer available) > the manufacturer have the fun of building the car for you. For just three times > the cost, he will store it (sorry "collect it") for you as well. You will be > sent a Certificate of Ownership to hang on the wall of your train room to show > all your friends just how much money you have spend on trains. The absence of > any real models in the room will give you just that much more wall space for the > certificates. You can arrange the certificates into interesting consists and > discuss how prototypical they are with others on the internet. You can even buy > and sell the certificates on eBay, saving substantial shipping cost and not > needing the foto usually used in an auction since all certificates will look > pretty much the same ;-) > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > BPX29@aol.com wrote: > > > Gentlemen, > > You guys have really hit some of my bottons this morning.. and I'm very grateful! I just had a strangely related experience in the hobby shop yesterday. My local dealer (who actually is friendly plus gives 20% discounts)had just gotten in my latest fix: Northeastern flooring, roofs, centersills, etc and a load of NERS and BCW parts. The dealer was unloading an incoming shipment that included, of all things, RTR Athearn cars. Ready to run Athearn! Not three minutes later a fella comes in and begins scooping them up, proclaiming how great the hobby was getting. Being a friendly sort, he asked me what I was going to do with all the sticks and do-dads I had piled up. I told him I'd recently gotten some old Walthers section sleepers and was going to try doing modernized versions, ala Pennsy, of the 12 and 14 section cars, as well as a modernized D78 version, etc. This guy actually began laughing and must have thought I was doing some sort of psych ward therapy. > > I wonder how typical this guy is becoming, where the idea of building even a ten minute Athearn car, let alone kitbashing, is beyond his abilaties and/or desires? To tell the truth, this shop only stocks IM in rtr versions, though he'll gladly order the kits. I imagine the manurfacturers increase their profit margins widely by having their cars assembled in Red China, which would add only marginally to the cost while doubling the price. But,as someone else pointed out, why pay somebody else, particularly someone whose government dispises my country, to build it for me? And the hit on the decal industry does indeed seem foreboding, if Champ is folding up rather than looking for a buyer to carry on. > > > > Engines are another interesting topic. Like Norm pointed out, do we really need all this? Personally, I don't care how many E units P2K and BLI, et al turn out, my old Model Power and Hobbytown grinders run just fine. And I should go out and buy T1's, Hudsons and such just because they're really nice? Naw. I've got plenty of kits and projects stacked up in the basement to last me, though I must admit I still scour the swap meets for classic era kits. And I keep gradually thinning down the not so hot older plastic cars to make room in the yard for Bowsers, Westerfields, Tichy and Branchline cars. Heck, I even enjoy the Huff & Puff wooden kits when I can find them, though most shops have never heard of such contraptions. But buying because it's new and nice? I dunno, I just can't see it. Leaves me half wondering if being such an old dinosaur is good or bad, but as long as the hobby makes a guy happy I guess it doesn't matter. I just have a suspicion that some of the new trends may > be > > changing the popular face of the hobby and whether that's a baleful thing or not remains to be seen. > > Regards, > > Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Subject: [PRR] Kits vs RTR Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:59:11 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C2451C.555B41C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think, like most of model railroading, the trend to RTR is a function = of the economy and the demographics of hobbyists. Model railroading got its start in the depression. The entertainment = cost ($/hour) made it very attractive. People had time but no money. = Even in the 1950's Model Railroader had a regular feature called the = "Dollar Car". Plans, photos, text and a parts list for a freight car = for under a dollar (less T/C). Now it is just the opposite, but the pendulum may be swinging back soon. There is also another effect. I was a kid of the late 40's-early 50's. = Nothing made me happier than leaving a hobby shop with a fist full of = strip wood and a pair of trucks. Now I still love kits, particularly = kit bashing plastic structures. But most of the few old wood craftsman = kits I was delighted to find on E-Bay remain unbuilt. Why? Simple, = loss of eyesight and manual dexterity. I am 64. There is another school. My son is 30 and also an active model = railroader. He buys RTR locos and a fist full of detail parts I can't = even see, paint and decals. He turns locos that already are beyond our = dreams in the early years into even more detailed models. My hope is the hobby will continue to thrive with enough on the market = to satisfy al these approaches. Fred Rea PS Yes, I do laugh at people asking to have someone retro fit X2f = couples to a Life-Like loco for them! I am open minded, but there is a = limit! ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C2451C.555B41C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think, like most of model = railroading, the trend=20 to RTR is a function of the economy and the demographics of=20 hobbyists.
 
Model railroading got its start in the=20 depression.  The entertainment cost ($/hour) made it very = attractive.=20 People had time but no money.   Even in the 1950's Model = Railroader=20 had a regular feature called the "Dollar Car".  Plans, photos, text = and a=20 parts list for a freight car for under a dollar (less T/C).
 
Now it is just the opposite, but the = pendulum may=20 be swinging back soon.
 
There is also another effect.  I = was a kid of=20 the late 40's-early 50's.  Nothing made me happier than leaving a = hobby=20 shop with a fist full of strip wood and a pair of trucks.  Now I = still love=20 kits, particularly kit bashing plastic structures.  But most of the = few old=20 wood craftsman kits I was delighted to find on E-Bay remain = unbuilt. =20 Why?  Simple, loss of eyesight and manual dexterity.  I = am=20 64.
 
There is another school.  My son = is 30 and=20 also an active model railroader.  He buys RTR locos and a fist full = of=20 detail parts I can't even see, paint and decals. He turns locos = that=20 already are beyond our dreams in the early years into even more detailed = models.
 
My hope is the hobby will continue to = thrive with=20 enough on the market to satisfy al these approaches.
 
Fred Rea
 
PS Yes, I do laugh at people asking to = have someone=20 retro fit X2f couples to a Life-Like loco for them!   I am = open=20 minded, but there is a limit!
------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C2451C.555B41C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:04:25 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] RtR vs. Kits From: Roger P Hensley On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:46:26 -0400 Jerry Britton writes > I also suspect that many of those who prefer the kits fall > into one of two categories: 1) currently not building a layout > (for space, relocation, or other reasons), or 2) they have no > layout, don't plan on building one, and participate at a club. Or are retired and just flat out don't have the money to spend on RTR no matter how nice. Yes, I have a layout and can't think of one better car that I own that wasn't a kit. I do still have one Bachmann coil car, one Life Like Santa Fe Box and two Tyco flatcars that I keep around for the grandkids. > To each their own... Yep. And the Iceman has his pick. Roger Hensley === Railroads of Madison County === === http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ === ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] RtR vs. Kits Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:19:08 +0000 I for one drool over the Kaydee cars but at $25.00 a pop I would be scared to run one. All I can see are pieces coming off after the derailment or trip into the big chasm! Norm Bell > On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:46:26 -0400 Jerry Britton > writes > > I also suspect that many of those who prefer the kits fall > > into one of two categories: 1) currently not building a layout > > (for space, relocation, or other reasons), or 2) they have no > > layout, don't plan on building one, and participate at a club. > > Or are retired and just flat out don't have the money to spend > on RTR no matter how nice. Yes, I have a layout and can't > think of one better car that I own that wasn't a kit. I do still > have one Bachmann coil car, one Life Like Santa Fe Box and > two Tyco flatcars that I keep around for the grandkids. > > > To each their own... > > Yep. And the Iceman has his pick. > > Roger Hensley > > === Railroads of Madison County === > === http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ === > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] "Ready to Run" vs Kits Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:34:24 -0500 Sometimes the RTR kits have features I don't want. I prefer to machine screw on my trucks. And, while the detail has improved on those provided with the RTRs, I prefer to install my own, usually sprung trucks. So except for the Kadees, I ususally don't buy the RTR version. -----Original Message----- From: zootowerprr@webtv.net [mailto:zootowerprr@webtv.net] Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 8:36 AM To: asmiller@mitre.org; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] "Ready to Run" vs Kits PRR List........... I must agree with Mr. Miller thread that kits maybe a thing of the past(on certain freight cars). But ever since InterMountain and Kadee introduced thier RTR freight cars, it's hard not to buy one. I bought two 60s era 60' boxcars from I/M. These super detail freight cars are hard to pass up. Thats seems to be the trend in model railroading. I understand that these RTR cars are hurting the decal industry. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Kits vs RTR, Engines & such Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:37:50 -0500 Having don business in the Orient, I don't think the People's Republic of China, or their leaders, despise the United States of America, or their people. -----Original Message----- From: BPX29@aol.com [mailto:BPX29@aol.com] Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 10:11 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Kits vs RTR, Engines & such Gentlemen, You guys have really hit some of my bottons this morning.. and I'm very grateful! I just had a strangely related experience in the hobby shop yesterday. My local dealer (who actually is friendly plus gives 20% discounts)had just gotten in my latest fix: Northeastern flooring, roofs, centersills, etc and a load of NERS and BCW parts. The dealer was unloading an incoming shipment that included, of all things, RTR Athearn cars. Ready to run Athearn! Not three minutes later a fella comes in and begins scooping them up, proclaiming how great the hobby was getting. Being a friendly sort, he asked me what I was going to do with all the sticks and do-dads I had piled up. I told him I'd recently gotten some old Walthers section sleepers and was going to try doing modernized versions, ala Pennsy, of the 12 and 14 section cars, as well as a modernized D78 version, etc. This guy actually began laughing and must have thought I was doing some sort of psych ward therapy. I wonder how typical this guy is becoming, where the idea of building even a ten minute Athearn car, let alone kitbashing, is beyond his abilaties and/or desires? To tell the truth, this shop only stocks IM in rtr versions, though he'll gladly order the kits. I imagine the manurfacturers increase their profit margins widely by having their cars assembled in Red China, which would add only marginally to the cost while doubling the price. But,as someone else pointed out, why pay somebody else, particularly someone whose government dispises my country, to build it for me? And the hit on the decal industry does indeed seem foreboding, if Champ is folding up rather than looking for a buyer to carry on. Engines are another interesting topic. Like Norm pointed out, do we really need all this? Personally, I don't care how many E units P2K and BLI, et al turn out, my old Model Power and Hobbytown grinders run just fine. And I should go out and buy T1's, Hudsons and such just because they're really nice? Naw. I've got plenty of kits and projects stacked up in the basement to last me, though I must admit I still scour the swap meets for classic era kits. And I keep gradually thinning down the not so hot older plastic cars to make room in the yard for Bowsers, Westerfields, Tichy and Branchline cars. Heck, I even enjoy the Huff & Puff wooden kits when I can find them, though most shops have never heard of such contraptions. But buying because it's new and nice? I dunno, I just can't see it. Leaves me half wondering if being such an old dinosaur is good or bad, but as long as the hobby makes a guy happy I guess it doesn't matter. I just have a suspicion that some of the new trends may be changing the popular face of the hobby and whether that's a baleful thing or not remains to be seen. Regards, Barry Peltier SڲȬµ©Ü{­?Øb²X¬¶(tm)^jǯSÈ­?Ûiÿùb²Û²S\ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Kits vs RTR, Engines & such Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:39:52 -0500 Why not do this for currently constructed brass. They are too expensive to risk operation on a layout. Besides, the more realistic ones can't even negotiate 34" radius curves. -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 10:28 AM To: BPX29@aol.com Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Kits vs RTR, Engines & such Having started this, I can see it has gone far enough for me to send out the reply I original sent only to Bob Zoeller: I can see the future now. For just twice the cost of a kit (no longer available) the manufacturer have the fun of building the car for you. For just three times the cost, he will store it (sorry "collect it") for you as well. You will be sent a Certificate of Ownership to hang on the wall of your train room to show all your friends just how much money you have spend on trains. The absence of any real models in the room will give you just that much more wall space for the certificates. You can arrange the certificates into interesting consists and discuss how prototypical they are with others on the internet. You can even buy and sell the certificates on eBay, saving substantial shipping cost and not needing the foto usually used in an auction since all certificates will look pretty much the same ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== BPX29@aol.com wrote: > Gentlemen, > You guys have really hit some of my bottons this morning.. and I'm very grateful! I just had a strangely related experience in the hobby shop yesterday. My local dealer (who actually is friendly plus gives 20% discounts)had just gotten in my latest fix: Northeastern flooring, roofs, centersills, etc and a load of NERS and BCW parts. The dealer was unloading an incoming shipment that included, of all things, RTR Athearn cars. Ready to run Athearn! Not three minutes later a fella comes in and begins scooping them up, proclaiming how great the hobby was getting. Being a friendly sort, he asked me what I was going to do with all the sticks and do-dads I had piled up. I told him I'd recently gotten some old Walthers section sleepers and was going to try doing modernized versions, ala Pennsy, of the 12 and 14 section cars, as well as a modernized D78 version, etc. This guy actually began laughing and must have thought I was doing some sort of psych ward therapy. > I wonder how typical this guy is becoming, where the idea of building even a ten minute Athearn car, let alone kitbashing, is beyond his abilaties and/or desires? To tell the truth, this shop only stocks IM in rtr versions, though he'll gladly order the kits. I imagine the manurfacturers increase their profit margins widely by having their cars assembled in Red China, which would add only marginally to the cost while doubling the price. But,as someone else pointed out, why pay somebody else, particularly someone whose government dispises my country, to build it for me? And the hit on the decal industry does indeed seem foreboding, if Champ is folding up rather than looking for a buyer to carry on. > > Engines are another interesting topic. Like Norm pointed out, do we really need all this? Personally, I don't care how many E units P2K and BLI, et al turn out, my old Model Power and Hobbytown grinders run just fine. And I should go out and buy T1's, Hudsons and such just because they're really nice? Naw. I've got plenty of kits and projects stacked up in the basement to last me, though I must admit I still scour the swap meets for classic era kits. And I keep gradually thinning down the not so hot older plastic cars to make room in the yard for Bowsers, Westerfields, Tichy and Branchline cars. Heck, I even enjoy the Huff & Puff wooden kits when I can find them, though most shops have never heard of such contraptions. But buying because it's new and nice? I dunno, I just can't see it. Leaves me half wondering if being such an old dinosaur is good or bad, but as long as the hobby makes a guy happy I guess it doesn't matter. I just have a suspicion that some of the new trends may be > changing the popular face of the hobby and whether that's a baleful thing or not remains to be seen. > Regards, > Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:35:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] RTR vs. Kits List.. I think kits will still be around for a while. I just don't have the time to build them like I used to. I hope that doesn't make me a bad model railroader. Like Mr. Britton says: "I prefer Ready to Run if the quality is good". Kits are fun to build. It's also fun to just put it a RTR car on the layout and run it. As for the prices on some of the cars,(I/M,Kadee), you pay for what you get. The InterMountain 60' boxcar I spoke of earlier list for $27.95. I paid 21.00 at Timonium. The car is equipped with airhoses, cut levers, draft gear, working doors, and scale grab irons. I don't know if $21.00 is a lot of money for this freight car but it works for me. And all I have to do is weather it and it's done. Now Athearn is offering RTR cars. I haven't seen a Walthers kit in a while. "To build or not to build,that is the question." Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:05:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [PRR] "Ready to Run" vs Kits Do you guys remember those PRR ore car kits. I can't remember who made them but they were tough to build. I tried to build one but it took to long for just one car. Now if Kadee or InterMountain came out with a PRR correct G39 ore jenny "RTR", for $21.00 to 25.00 or a two-pack for $35.00, would you buy! They wouldn't be able to build enough to satisfy the PRR modelers. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Kits vs. Pre-assembled in N scale Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:27:51 -0400 Jerry and list, As an N scale modeler, I was happy to see both InterMountain and Roundhouse offering car kits in addition to the resin kits offered by Fine N Scale. It is now becoming difficult to find kits for InterMountain and Roundhouse cars, as they seem to be sending all their production to China to satisfy the non-modeler, "collector" and "operator" market. Well, when it come to refrigerator cars, I prefer to run mine in the "ventilator" mode, with the ice hatches in the "up" position. Guess what, they glue 'em "down" on the pre-assembled cars! I'm now retired, so time is not a factor, but I'd buy a kit over a pre-assembled car, even at the same price, for the enjoyment of saying "I built that". Funny, this subject seems to be appearing in Forums as well. And, yes, I DO have a layout. Iit will be on display at the Wiregrass NRHS Train Show in Dothan, AL, on September 28th, and I'll be using my PRR H3. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Engines Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:53:32 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C24513.29825E20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Listers! Just some quick thoughts "off the top of my head"! For some of the same reasons Norm posts - I never bought a GG1 because = to me it means stringing wire - phooey! Likewise, I never bought big = power, J's, T's, etc. The largest engine I have is the I-1, then L's, = H's etc. But it takes a lot of "fortitude". I recently was tempted on = a brass M-1 for a very reasonable price, but did resist. Boy is that = ever hard to do! So Norm, and all you other guyz, take a deep breath, hold it for a = second, and wait for something better to come along that IS in your = mindset, what you want! Kind of like being in your favorite restaurant, ordering more than you = can eat, and wishing you could eat all night the kind of food you like = and don't want to ever stop eating. To me, buying an exact replica of = what I want/need is the same - it satisfies the hunger - for a time, and = then you get hungry again. :) :) Happy Rails and all that sort of stuff! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist! PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut!=20 ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C24513.29825E20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Listers!
 
Just some quick thoughts "off = the top of my=20 head"!
 
For some of the same reasons = Norm posts - I=20 never bought a GG1 because to me it means stringing wire - phooey!  = Likewise, I never bought big power, J's, T's, etc.  The largest = engine I=20 have is the I-1, then L's, H's etc.  But it takes a lot of=20 "fortitude".  I recently was tempted on a brass M-1 for a very = reasonable price, but did resist.  Boy is that ever hard to=20 do!
 
So Norm, and all you other guyz, = take a deep=20 breath, hold it for a second, and wait for something better to come = along that=20 IS in your mindset, what you want!
 
Kind of like being in = your favorite=20 restaurant, ordering more than you can eat, and wishing you could eat = all night=20 the kind of food you like and don't want to ever stop eating.  = To me,=20 buying an exact replica of what I want/need is the same - it satisfies = the=20 hunger - for a time, and then you get hungry again.  :) =20 :)
 
Happy Rails and all that = sort of=20 stuff!
 
Morgan=20 Bilbo
Ferroequinologist!
PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy = Nut! 
 
------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C24513.29825E20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:59:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Very Special Branchline Car Prices In a message dated 8/16/02 9:25:55 AM Central Daylight Time, shadow@dementia.org writes: << I have enough to keep you in "fun" for quite some time, and I don't seem to have said time... >> Focus helps. With only a switching layout at home and since I can't totally overwhelm the club layout with Pennsy stuff, I can take the time to build equipment to prototype to satisfy me. I f I had a big home layout, I too would have a lot of trainfiller cars to satisfy my first love, operation. However, even if I had a big basement, I would no longer build a large complex layout, recognizing there is life outside model railroading and it would take too much time. BTW, if you think you don't have time now, wait until you retire. Then you will have none:-). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Engines, Kits, RTR, Plastic, Brass Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:53:56 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C24523.FBB96B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi All - Again! Taking some time to reflect, and to clarify what I said before: Barry Peltier hit the nail on the head. What is this hobby becoming? I = too, experience the same thing in the hobby shop (I too, have a nice = "discount oriented" shop); wherein someone comes in, buys all the RTR = stuff he can get his hands on (also, please note - he/she doesn't give a = darn what roads, or if they are correct or not), and looks at me like I = am a strange weirdo for buying "parts". And if you can do it with a = smile, ask him/her if he/she knows the "X" railroad did not have that = car he/she is buying. The answer is "I don't care" and "What/or why do = you care?". And I agree about the "old" Hobbytown, even with the noise, = they do the job - just like Bowser - nothing hauls like them both. Barry: what's = "=16S=B2=C8=B5=A9{=08?=D8=B2X=B6Tj=C7S=C8?=DB=FF=F9=B2=DB=B2S" for? Are = you swearing? At what or who? HA! As to whether we "need" all this stuff - it's just like a lot of other = things. Why do we need all those MR and RMC (and many others - do you = save National Geographic's? Sorry for off-list topic) magazines. I = have MR back to 1948 and RMC back to somewhere near; and they take up = valuable space, and why? Because I enjoy looking back at articles like = the "Dollar Car" series. As for the train collectors, referring to brass, that's another facet of = this hobby. So, to each his own. Model Railroading is Fun! The other thing that helps keep me sane (what?), is to think of my = budget. So, I keep a mental note to "not spend over $xxx.xx", and it = helps keep me from buying a NYC Hudson (ugh!). I know it compares to a = loco plus sound. Side note: if BLI brings in the M-1 with sound that = operates on regular DC - I may weaken yet! And that means stretching = that budget. No more Steak and Ales! Buy more TV dinners! HA! Jerry: What's this stretching? The logic of having a "retired in 1949" = 2-8-8-2 is all right because it's feasible. Having a GP9 is a slight = stretch, but having an ATSF 2-10-4 (wasn't that 1956 or 1957) would be a = "no-no stretch" because it's not feasible on a 1954 layout. That GP9 = came out in 1955, so ???? HA! Bruce: I am sorry, but there's no way you can ever have a PRR roster of = locos and cars and such! Unless you have a building the size of a = football field to build the layout in. Or would a football field be big = enough? HA! And diesels on a PRR 1944 layout? An ES-6 or BS10 maybe. = And here's one I'm not sure of, were there Ajax brakes yet? So = selective compression is your only choice. All this is IMHO! And no offense intended! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist! PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C24523.FBB96B80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi All - Again!
 
Taking some time to reflect, and = to clarify=20 what I said before:
 
Barry Peltier hit the nail on = the=20 head.  What is this hobby becoming?  I too, experience the = same thing=20 in the hobby shop (I too, have a nice "discount oriented" shop); wherein = someone=20 comes in, buys all the RTR stuff he can get his hands on (also, please = note -=20 he/she doesn't give a darn what roads, or if they are correct or not), = and looks=20 at me like I am a strange weirdo for buying "parts".  And if you = can do it=20 with a smile, ask him/her if he/she knows the "X" railroad did not have = that car=20 he/she is buying.  The answer is "I don't care" and "What/or = why do=20 you care?".  And I agree about the "old" Hobbytown, even with the = noise,=20 they do the job - just like Bowser - nothing hauls like them = both.
 
Barry:  what's "=16S=B2=C8=B5=A9{=08?=D8=B2X=B6Tj=C7S=C8?=DB=FF=F9=B2=DB= =B2S" for?  Are you swearing?  At what = or=20 who?  HA!
 
As to whether we "need" all this = stuff -=20 it's just like a lot of other things.  Why do we need all those MR = and RMC=20 (and many others - do you save National Geographic's?  Sorry for = off-list=20 topic) magazines.  I have MR back to 1948 and RMC back to somewhere = near;=20 and they take up valuable space, and why?  Because I enjoy looking = back at=20 articles like the "Dollar Car" series.
 
As for the train collectors, = referring to=20 brass, that's another facet of this hobby.  So, to each his = own. =20 Model Railroading is Fun!
 
The other thing that helps keep = me sane=20 (what?), is to think of my budget.  So, I keep a mental note = to "not=20 spend over $xxx.xx", and it helps keep me from buying a NYC Hudson=20 (ugh!).  I know it compares to a loco plus sound.  Side note: = if BLI=20 brings in the M-1 with sound that operates on regular DC - I may weaken=20 yet!  And that means stretching that budget.  No more Steak = and=20 Ales!  Buy more TV dinners!  HA!
 
Jerry:  What's this = stretching? =20 The logic of having a "retired in 1949" 2-8-8-2 is all right because = it's=20 feasible.  Having a GP9 is a slight stretch, but having an ATSF = 2-10-4=20 (wasn't that 1956 or 1957) would be a "no-no stretch" because it's not = feasible=20 on a 1954 layout.  That GP9 came out in 1955, so ???? =20 HA!
 
Bruce:  I am sorry, but = there's no way=20 you can ever have a PRR roster of locos and cars and such!  Unless = you have=20 a building the size of a football field to build the layout in.  Or = would a=20 football field be big enough?  HA!   And diesels on a PRR = 1944=20 layout?  An ES-6 or BS10 maybe.  And here's one I'm not sure = of, were=20 there Ajax brakes yet?  So selective compression is your only=20 choice.
 
All this is IMHO!  And no = offense=20 intended!
 
Morgan=20 Bilbo
Ferroequinologist!
PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy = Nut!
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C24523.FBB96B80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:18:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Kits vs RTR, Engines & such Barry, You didn't say what age the guy was who scooped up the Athearn RTR. My observation is that oldtimers fall in at least two categories: those who buy a bundle of sticks (:-)) and those who have spent a lifetime assembling Athearn screwdriver kits and think they have 50 years of modeling experience. There is hope. We have had some turnover of their ranks in our club because of other interests (home layouts, sports, girls) but our 14 year olds have been some of our top modelers. I sold them some of my undec cars and locos. They paint, decal, weather, add cabshades and other details.One builds his own track cleaning cars ala Centreline in shop at school. If I could sum them up, I would say that they almost never leave even a RTR loco or car alone. They bravely bash up a decorated Kato loco with number paintouts and leasing reporting marks, rust and mud. In addition, one of our 30-somethings who recently joined does the same. He models some Penn Central and Rock Island in that 70's era so he HAS to weather :-). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Aug 02 14:23:15 EDT From: LINKM@timken.com Subject: [PRR] KITS FOR RELAXATION LISTERS: Since everyone is sounding off about this topic, please allow me to indulge als o. Being a younger fella (27) and having subscribed to MR for several years, I have found that the best (in my humble opinoin) layouts are the ones where the builders have taken the extra pains to construct most of their own items. Take the Franklin and South Manchester for example. In my circumstance, I am about t o build my very first layout. (room is still in construction stages) Meanwhile I have set up a small workshop in which I build my fleet of cars and locomotive s. I am particularly fond of Bowser kits. I find great satisfaction and relaxat ion in the construction of their locomotive kits, and find that their freight c ars suit my needs most adequatly. When I hone my modeling skills in my little w orkshop, I should be ready somewhat to takle a lifelong ambition: Modeling the Crestline roundhouse in HO scale for my personal layout. I would like to have a round 50 locomotives (30 stall roundhouse needs a few!) After completing my fir st kit, an I1sa, (thanks to a few listers for their painting tips!) I am eager to build the rest of the fleet myself. I just hope that someday bowser will off er the Q-2 and J-1 as part of their line. Thanks to all for reading my rambling s! TTFN Matt Link PRR T&HS #7140 Vice President - Crestline Roundhouse Preservation Society Wishing this year was 1946! ********************************************************************** This message and any attachments are intended for the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not forward, copy, print, use or disclose this communication to others; also please notify the sender by replying to this message, and then delete it from your system. The Timken Company ********************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 14:51:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] "Ready to Run" vs Kits In a message dated 8/16/02 12:22:01 PM Central Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: << Now if Kadee or InterMountain came out with a PRR correct G39 ore jenny "RTR", for $21.00 to 25.00 or a two-pack for $35.00, would you buy! They wouldn't be able to build enough to satisfy the PRR modelers. >> But do they have to be completely RTR? I grant you that if you are building up 48 Bowser hoppers, it could get tedious, but OTOH, I am glad a "screwdriver" kit is available for a reasonable price. By the same token, I am OK with building a couple Westerfield kits for token GLCA's in my fleet, but am hoping Bowser will tool a K7 stockcar kit as I wouldn't relish the idea of doing a train of them in resin. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:12:25 -0700 From: Steve B Subject: Re: [PRR] Engines Bruce F. Smith wrote: >In modeling June 1944, I use the charts in >the Hirmanski book for the ratios of steamers >in the location I model. > I haven't been on the list very long and am just returning to the hobby after many years. I also recently became a PRRT&HS member. I am not familiar with the Hirmanski book. I did an Internet search for this author without success. Is this reference still available? I'm modeling the Indianapolis Union Station in the 1949-1951 time period. Most of my fleet will be passenger cars with K4s and early diesel locomotives (plus appropriate equipment for the NYC, Monon and B&O who shared the terminal). However, there were several team tracks and company freight houses in the vicinity of the Union Station that I'd also like to model. So I'll need to know what PRR motive power was used for freight and switching in my area (Lines West) for the time period in which I'm working. Regards, Steve Beals Los Angeles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:22:20 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Engines From: Jerry Britton On 8/16/02 3:12 PM, Steve B (paradise@pacbell.net) wrote: > Bruce F. Smith wrote: > >> In modeling June 1944, I use the charts in >> the Hirmanski book for the ratios of steamers >> in the location I model. >> > I haven't been on the list very long and am just returning to the hobby > after many years. I also recently became a PRRT&HS member. I am not > familiar with the Hirmanski book. I did an Internet search for this > author without success. Is this reference still available? First, welcome! This book is actually a series. Volumes 1 and 2 are out. They are still available. The publisher is Mileposts Publishing. (My company, Merchandise Service -- see below -- sells these books but they are out of stock and can be ordered.) The author expects the series to run five volumes in all. Last I heard the third volume was due by the end of this year. > > I'm modeling the Indianapolis Union Station in the 1949-1951 time > period. Most of my fleet will be passenger cars with K4s and early > diesel locomotives (plus appropriate equipment for the NYC, Monon and > B&O who shared the terminal). However, there were several team tracks > and company freight houses in the vicinity of the Union Station that I'd > also like to model. So I'll need to know what PRR motive power was used > for freight and switching in my area (Lines West) for the time period in > which I'm working. > Will have to defer the question on the appropriate freight classes to one of our Lines West experts...Rick Tipton, are you listening? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:27:05 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] K7s (was: "Ready to Run" vs Kits) Here here! Pray for K7s (and K8s). And pray they are kits. I can't build NF-1 (50 cars) if they are all RTR and $25 ea! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/16/02 12:22:01 PM Central Daylight Time, > zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: > > << Now if Kadee or InterMountain came out with a PRR correct G39 > ore jenny "RTR", for $21.00 to 25.00 or a two-pack for $35.00, would you > buy! They wouldn't be able to build enough to satisfy the PRR modelers. >> > > But do they have to be completely RTR? I grant you that if you are building > up 48 Bowser hoppers, it could get tedious, but OTOH, I am glad a > "screwdriver" kit is available for a reasonable price. By the same token, I > am OK with building a couple Westerfield kits for token GLCA's in my fleet, > but am hoping Bowser will tool a K7 stockcar kit as I wouldn't relish the > idea of doing a train of them in resin. > > Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Life Like to Re-Run PRR Class HH-1 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:35:05 -0400 I still see the HH-1 around. They didn't sell out completely. I am happy they are doing a second run. Hope they do it with a different number? They should run it as a kit. I'd buy one. Then I could figure out how to stuff weight in the boiler so it pulls more than it does. Everyone needs a HH-1, at least for display. Their is nothing like seeing the gleam on a child's face when they look at a large steam locomotive with all its articulating parts. Kits will always be around. Let those who want rtr- buy it. If that's what it will take to keep mgf's thriving in the business, I could care less. As long as they don't forget the discriminating prototype modeler with borderline Obsessive Compulsive Disorder trying desperately to reach 100% reduced accuracy. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 9:00 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Life Like to Re-Run PRR Class HH-1 Life Like Heritage Series is re-running the HO scale 2-8-8-2's that are PRR's Class HH-1, purchased from the N&W. If you missed out on the first run, here's your chance. Contact your dealer of choice soon, as they are due to ship this September! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:36:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Engines In a message dated 8/16/02 2:20:00 PM, paradise@pacbell.net writes: << I haven't been on the list very long and am just returning to the hobby after many years. I also recently became a PRRT&HS member. I am not familiar with the Hirmanski book. I did an Internet search for this author without success. Is this reference still available? I'm modeling the Indianapolis Union Station in the 1949-1951 time period. Most of my fleet will be passenger cars with K4s and early diesel locomotives (plus appropriate equipment for the NYC, Monon and B&O who shared the terminal). However, there were several team tracks and company freight houses in the vicinity of the Union Station that I'd also like to model. So I'll need to know what PRR motive power was used for freight and switching in my area (Lines West) for the time period in which I'm working. Regards, Steve Beals Los Angeles >> When I worked for the Pennsy in Indianapolis, my office was on the 4th floor of Union Station (1963?). I mentioned this to a corespondent (whose name escapes me at the moment) who told me that he had written a history of Indianapolis Union Station that was to be published later this year by Guild Press (Indiana). They have a web site which you might want to check. As I mentioned yesterday, however, my bet would be that there was a train/engine service grievance filed from 1947 to 1953 that went to the NRAB for final and binding arbitration and that the printed decision has a section on "Facts" that would exactly answer your question and provide the names of the people who were actually involved. When I lived in Los Angeles, I'd already abandoned the Pennsy for the airlines so I never used the NRAB case books. But, if you want to follow up, start with the librarian at Boalt Hall, the law school at UCLA. She may know who in the area has a public access collection of the black books in which the decisions were printed. And, if you do follow up, please post where you found the decisions and whether my recollection of the case content is accurate. HTH. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:53:50 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] RtR vs. Kits Jerry (jerry@pennsyrr.com) writes: > Just my two cents... > > Granted I am in N scale now, but my opinion holds true for even when I was in HO. I prefer Ready-to-Run, if the quality is good.< Jerry and all, We who have been in the hobby for years realize that especially in N Scale the cars have normally been offered to the market as PRE ASSEMBLED. Not a bad thing just the norm for that end of the hobby. But until KADEE introduced their, at the time, spendy Ready to Run PS-1 car pre-assembled was relegated to low end line cars (Like the old Life Like stuff and Bachmann), so we in HO scale were caught off guard with the introduction of the KADEE cars. IMHO the KADEE cars were viewed as COLLECTOR CARS and to some degree still are. I personally know great nit-picking modelers that buy these car before they are "Sold Out" with little regard as to whether they fit their modeling era... GO FIGURE? Now the rest of the hobby seems to be headed that way, just look around, LIFE LIKE, ATHEARN, ATHEARN GENESIS, ATLAS, INTERMOUNTAIN and others are headed that way too. And we the MODELERS have little impact on the market anymore at least for now. But as I have seen in this hobby, what goes around comes around. I am just as guilty of buying a couple Ready to Run car, but only becasue that was the only way they were offered but I only own one KADEE PS-1, I will stick with my Intermountain kits I stashed years ago. But, had the Branchline Kit (in this case) been offered at one third their normal retail would I have bought 7 , not likely. I still have time to build kits, like I told Andy privately, what the heck am I now going to do on those marthon Friday night kit building sessions, listening to the baseball game and late night radio? I hope the trends hold for the manufacturers or someone is going to get hurt... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] RtR vs. Kits Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 20:23:20 +0000 IMHO the KADEE cars > were viewed as COLLECTOR CARS and to some degree still are. If I bought one it sure would be. The fear of derailing a $25.00 car and subsequent damage would concern me about as much as a real railroad. I can see my heart rate being 0 when one of those headed into the great abyss! They are far too costly for my abilities and treasurer. Norm Bell > Jerry (jerry@pennsyrr.com) writes: > > > Just my two cents... > > > > Granted I am in N scale now, but my opinion holds true for even when I was in > HO. I prefer Ready-to-Run, if the quality is good.< > > Jerry and all, > > We who have been in the hobby for years realize that especially in N Scale the > cars have normally been offered to the market as PRE ASSEMBLED. Not a bad thing > just the norm for that end of the hobby. But until KADEE introduced their, at > the time, spendy Ready to Run PS-1 car pre-assembled was relegated to low end > line cars (Like the old Life Like stuff and Bachmann), so we in HO scale were > caught off guard with the introduction of the KADEE cars. IMHO the KADEE cars > were viewed as COLLECTOR CARS and to some degree still are. I personally know > great nit-picking modelers that buy these car before they are "Sold Out" with > little regard as to whether they fit their modeling era... GO FIGURE? > > Now the rest of the hobby seems to be headed that way, just look around, LIFE > LIKE, ATHEARN, ATHEARN GENESIS, ATLAS, INTERMOUNTAIN and others are headed that > way too. And we the MODELERS have little impact on the market anymore at least > for now. But as I have seen in this hobby, what goes around comes around. I am > just as guilty of buying a couple Ready to Run car, but only becasue that was > the only way they were offered but I only own one KADEE PS-1, I will stick with > my Intermountain kits I stashed years ago. But, had the Branchline Kit (in this > case) been offered at one third their normal retail would I have bought 7 , not > likely. I still have time to build kits, like I told Andy privately, what the > heck am I now going to do on those marthon Friday night kit building sessions, > listening to the baseball game and late night radio? I hope the trends hold for > the manufacturers or someone is going to get hurt... > > Greg Martin > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Engines Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:28:46 -0400 I too have a plan for purchasing locomotives - so I must be anal too. I'm modeling Williamsport & Renovo Divisions during WWII, so I'm buying the locomotives that were used on those divisions at that time, in the proportion they existed on those divisions on the PRR. Ditto for freight cars and buildings (mostly kit-bashes). As for the great Kadee and I/M kits - if building kits is your thing, you won't be happy. Operating is my thing, so this saves me time and gets me operating quicker. I buy rtr locomotives when they're available, and add details if needed as time permits (so far it never has!). Just one SPF's opinion and approach. Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" To: Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 10:40 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Engines > Norm asks: > >Having just read Jerry's post about the 2-8-8-2 I wonder > >how many of us have an actual plan for purchasing > >locomotives and rolling stock? > > OK so count me as anal...I do. In modeling June 1944, I use the charts in > the Hirmanski book for the ratios of steamers in the location I model...for > example 1 H6sb:1 H8:30 H9. This cahrt also pointed out to me the need for > more L1s locos and the M1as I have on order from BLI! In addition, I plan > to have roughly 2 GG1s in freight service for every 3 P5As, and if possible > the 2:1 ration of boxcabs to modifieds withing the P5A fleet (BLI, PLEASE > do the P5A!!). > > As for freight cars, I'm estimating an active fleet of 500 for the layout. > Since the PRR home road percentage was right around 50%, I'll need 250 PRR > cars. They distribution is based on the actual car numbers for 1943-45 > divided by 1000 (see > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/carclasses.html) with > some leeway for additional cars not in the top 30 classes and extras for > cars in the top classes in specific service (such as flats with war > material). For foreign road cars, I am following the approximate > percentages of the actual car fleet ownership...since the car service > routing rules virtually evaporated during WWII. Thus, since UP had one of > the largest fleets of house cars, I'll have a substantial nubmer of UP > boxcars on the layout. Another example of this would be the flat car fleet > with SP having the largest fleet by far. Of course, to accurately do all > this, I'm heavily invested in resin kits and I spend a fair amount of time > browsing the ORER ! > > >Or are we all impulse buying suckers for > >whatever the manufacturers want us to buy this time? Can > >one ever have too many trains? (looking for a reason to > >justify buying a 2-8-8-2 against all common sense) Norm > > Of course, you do have to get a littel wild from time to time...just > reserved a BLI T1 through Jerry's site...gotta to have one even if they are > too modern for me...along those same lines, I have an FF2, and will most > likely pick up a couple of E33s to do in PC or CR...and would certainly get > a couple of E44s if they were to come out in plastic. They wouldn't run in > ops sessions on the layout, but I could update the details and shoot > pictures of them . > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Kits vs RTR, Engines & such Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:31:00 -0400 What a concept - Virtual model railroading! Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" To: Cc: Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 11:27 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Kits vs RTR, Engines & such Having started this, I can see it has gone far enough for me to send out the reply I original sent only to Bob Zoeller: I can see the future now. For just twice the cost of a kit (no longer available) the manufacturer have the fun of building the car for you. For just three times the cost, he will store it (sorry "collect it") for you as well. You will be sent a Certificate of Ownership to hang on the wall of your train room to show all your friends just how much money you have spend on trains. The absence of any real models in the room will give you just that much more wall space for the certificates. You can arrange the certificates into interesting consists and discuss how prototypical they are with others on the internet. You can even buy and sell the certificates on eBay, saving substantial shipping cost and not needing the foto usually used in an auction since all certificates will look pretty much the same ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== BPX29@aol.com wrote: > Gentlemen, > You guys have really hit some of my bottons this morning.. and I'm very grateful! I just had a strangely related experience in the hobby shop yesterday. My local dealer (who actually is friendly plus gives 20% discounts)had just gotten in my latest fix: Northeastern flooring, roofs, centersills, etc and a load of NERS and BCW parts. The dealer was unloading an incoming shipment that included, of all things, RTR Athearn cars. Ready to run Athearn! Not three minutes later a fella comes in and begins scooping them up, proclaiming how great the hobby was getting. Being a friendly sort, he asked me what I was going to do with all the sticks and do-dads I had piled up. I told him I'd recently gotten some old Walthers section sleepers and was going to try doing modernized versions, ala Pennsy, of the 12 and 14 section cars, as well as a modernized D78 version, etc. This guy actually began laughing and must have thought I was doing some sort of psych ward therapy. > I wonder how typical this guy is becoming, where the idea of building even a ten minute Athearn car, let alone kitbashing, is beyond his abilaties and/or desires? To tell the truth, this shop only stocks IM in rtr versions, though he'll gladly order the kits. I imagine the manurfacturers increase their profit margins widely by having their cars assembled in Red China, which would add only marginally to the cost while doubling the price. But,as someone else pointed out, why pay somebody else, particularly someone whose government dispises my country, to build it for me? And the hit on the decal industry does indeed seem foreboding, if Champ is folding up rather than looking for a buyer to carry on. > > Engines are another interesting topic. Like Norm pointed out, do we really need all this? Personally, I don't care how many E units P2K and BLI, et al turn out, my old Model Power and Hobbytown grinders run just fine. And I should go out and buy T1's, Hudsons and such just because they're really nice? Naw. I've got plenty of kits and projects stacked up in the basement to last me, though I must admit I still scour the swap meets for classic era kits. And I keep gradually thinning down the not so hot older plastic cars to make room in the yard for Bowsers, Westerfields, Tichy and Branchline cars. Heck, I even enjoy the Huff & Puff wooden kits when I can find them, though most shops have never heard of such contraptions. But buying because it's new and nice? I dunno, I just can't see it. Leaves me half wondering if being such an old dinosaur is good or bad, but as long as the hobby makes a guy happy I guess it doesn't matter. I just have a suspicion that some of the new trends may be > changing the popular face of the hobby and whether that's a baleful thing or not remains to be seen. > Regards, > Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:29:20 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Kits, Layouts and RTR From: Roger P Hensley I didn't keep the message, but someone remonded us that Model Railroading is Fun! (It used to say that right there on the cover.) Thanks. That's right and the messages here today show that there are probably as many ways to enjoy the hobby as there are people in the hobby. If buying RTR (and the quality of these entries IS excellent) whether or not they are correct for a particular roadname is what you want, it's your railroad. You can do as you please. How many of us started with RTR before we found Athearn and MDC and then the craftsman kits? I started my kids with Life Like and Tyco and then moved them up as their interest grew. Personaly, I am not very likely to build a real craftsman kit any longer, but I still enjoy kitbashing and scratchbuilding an occasional structure. Right now, I am making changes to the electronics on my railroad to bring it into the 90s from the 70s where it has been. (This century will have to wait.) Who am I to tell someone that what they are doing is wrong? I had that a number of years ago when I was open for a layout tour. Two gentlemen informed me that a particular private car owned never painted anything in that scheme. Wrong-O Buffalo Breath. I had the photos to prove it. Why did I have to? Hmmm? When I had my model railroad shop in the 80s, I used to tell my newbie customers that they could do pretty much whatever they wanted to do, but "If you say that this is the PRR in Anderson Indiana in the summer of 1954, you better be right because someone will know." Model railroading is fun. Thanks for reminding me. :-) Roger Hensley === Railroads of Madison County === === http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ === ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:45:08 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] Attention Listmembers The railroad antique roadshow event that we had hoped to have this weekend had to be cancelled due to lack of manpower. I regret this had to be cancelled , hopfully we can do it in the future . Thanks, Dr Andy Mulhollen Secretary Board of Directors Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:59:02 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Engines From: John Sheets > I have resisted the urge to get a 2-8- > 8-2 as it never ran in the Philly area and is not a PRR > prototype from Altoona. Don't know about the USRA L2a mikes, but L1's in Philadelphia area ? While they may have been more popular on Lines West, they did so run in Greater Philadelphia...... Ball's book, PRR 1940-1950's has one at Thorndale in pusher service. In Pennsy Power, they show L-1's at S. Philadelphia, ZOO Tower, and heading up north out of Philadelphia to Hazelton. I have photo of one on the Trenton Cutoff on a work train in 1954. ....and some of the L-1's were built at Juniata John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:08:15 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] RtR vs. Kits Norm sez: >If I bought one it sure would be. The fear of derailing >a $25.00 car and subsequent damage would concern me >about as much as a real railroad. I can see my heart >rate being 0 when one of those headed into the great >abyss! They are far too costly for my abilities and >treasurer. Norm Bell Gee Norm, My layout to be would give you ulcers! Many of the locos are brass because, well, they have to be (nobody makes a plastic P5A) and many of the freight cars will be worth lots more tahn a $25 KADEE...since they will be $25 resin kits with all that effort put into them...I'll tell you one thing, I am not buildingin and buying them to just sit on the shelf! I'm headed down the home stretch building the remaining 3 Westerfiled XLs for my wreck train...next maybe the wire train or the crawler crane/carrier/idler combo... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:20:21 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Engines >> I have resisted the urge to get a 2-8- >> 8-2 as it never ran in the Philly area and is not a PRR >> prototype from Altoona. > >Don't know about the USRA L2a mikes, but L1's in Philadelphia area ? While >they may have been more popular on Lines West, they did so run in Greater >Philadelphia...... Ball's book, PRR 1940-1950's has one at Thorndale in >pusher service. > >In Pennsy Power, they show L-1's at S. Philadelphia, ZOO Tower, and heading >up north out of Philadelphia to Hazelton. > >I have photo of one on the Trenton Cutoff on a work train in 1954. > >....and some of the L-1's were built at Juniata > >John Um I think that was an HH1 (2-8-8-2) not an L1s (which as you say were common in the Philly area). The HH1s were based in Enola for the first year or two, and may have run as far east as Thorndale. One is documented on the Elmira Branch in "Set Up Running". L2s are not listed as assigned to any division around Philly in 1944, so they were a non starter with me, as was the recent P2K USRA 0-6-0. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Engines Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:47:58 -0400 Of course one good thing about model railroading (which is fun) is that you can run things that never ran but should have, such as a Q-2 on the Williamsport Division, etc, etc. So much railroading, so little time and money! Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" To: Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 5:20 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR Engines > >> I have resisted the urge to get a 2-8- > >> 8-2 as it never ran in the Philly area and is not a PRR > >> prototype from Altoona. > > > >Don't know about the USRA L2a mikes, but L1's in Philadelphia area ? While > >they may have been more popular on Lines West, they did so run in Greater > >Philadelphia...... Ball's book, PRR 1940-1950's has one at Thorndale in > >pusher service. > > > >In Pennsy Power, they show L-1's at S. Philadelphia, ZOO Tower, and heading > >up north out of Philadelphia to Hazelton. > > > >I have photo of one on the Trenton Cutoff on a work train in 1954. > > > >....and some of the L-1's were built at Juniata > > > >John > > Um I think that was an HH1 (2-8-8-2) not an L1s (which as you say were > common in the Philly area). The HH1s were based in Enola for the first > year or two, and may have run as far east as Thorndale. One is documented > on the Elmira Branch in "Set Up Running". L2s are not listed as assigned > to any division around Philly in 1944, so they were a non starter with me, > as was the recent P2K USRA 0-6-0. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Intimidating Helix Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 20:13:03 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR ER" Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 3:01 PM Subject: [PRR] The Intimidating Helix > I thought I'd share a few thoughts over the main list, in addition to my > layout's list, about helix construction. > > My layout features three helixes. I had never built a helix before and it > was quite an intimidating road block to getting the layout going. > > Thanks to a few fellow railroaders -- including Stan Ebersole in Emigsville > who let me climb around inside his -- I composited everyone's pros and cons > of design and came up with an adaptation of my own. > > Although I am only on the second turn, progress is rapid at this point. > > My helix has a rise of 4" per turn. The key to my design was to create a > totally level "base" for the helix to sit on. The 1/2" plywood subroadbed is > cut 1.5" wider than the roadbed on both sides. The roadbed is 1/2" homasote. > This leaves a vertical clearance of 3". (Remember, I am in N scale!) > > The key to the design is that every 1/8 turn on the first turn a riser is > placed. Each riser is 1/2" higher than the previous riser. By the time you > get one turn around, you are 4" higher than the base. > > Once the first turn is installed, work goes much faster. With the 1/2" of > plywood subroadbed for each new layer, a consistent rise of 3.5" is needed. > This happens to be the dimension of a 2"x4" on edge. So I just insert scrap > blocks of 2"x4"'s every 15" or so. These sit on the edges of the plywood > that protrudes from the roadbed. Works great! > > My helix is five tracks and I can now do a 1/2 turn, with wiring, in about 3 > hours. > > The result? One loco (Atlas Trainmaster) can pull 21 cars (Bowser H21a's) > onto the helix at about 35% power. To maintain the climb, power needs to > increase to about 50% power. Not bad considering this is a PRR layout and > will feature 3-4 units at head! > > Another test: I positioned a decently weighted InterMountain tank car on the > track at the top of the helix. It held its position, reaffirming that the > grade was not too great. With a gentle nudge, it went down the helix > smoothly, all the way to the bottom, maintaining a consistent speed. Sweet! > > The construction task I was dreading has now taken on the mood of "easy", > though still time consuming. In just a few weeks I expect to be laying track > into the south end of Harrisburg! ;-) > > I'll have updated pics posted soon. But you can look at month old photos, > the layout design, join the layout mailing list, etc., at > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Trainz Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 20:15:05 -0400 Anyone have experience with the Trainz simulation program? Can you create and run sections of the PRR on it? Leaning curve: difficulty? Time for non computer nerds like me? TIA Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 20:58:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] RtR vs. Kits Hey Bruce........... No one makes a plastic P5A. Rail Classics is doing them in brass. They are ready to run! Boxcab and Modified. How many are you getting. :-) Dave sez ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:06:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] RtR vs. Kits Who said that Kadee and InterMountain were collector cars? Thats strange. Mine go right on the layout. As for derailments. I'll just have to reroute all trains over New Portage Branch. Dave Modeling Pittsburgh Div. 1964-1972 HO Scale. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 21:12:57 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RTR vs. Kits --part1_159.12a53a49.2a8efd19_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List, Come on gang. What would a cold, miserable winter's evening be without a kit to work on? Or any other evening for that matter?? Evan Leisey --part1_159.12a53a49.2a8efd19_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List,

  Come on gang.  What would a cold, miserable winter's evening be without a kit to work on?  Or any other evening for that matter??

Evan Leisey

--part1_159.12a53a49.2a8efd19_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 11:36:50 +1000 From: "Mick Molloy" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainz On 16/08/2002 at 8:15 PM William Bigler did electronicly scribble: >Anyone have experience with the Trainz simulation program? Can you create >and run sections of the PRR on it? Leaning curve: difficulty? Time for >non >computer nerds like me? > >TIA > >Bill Bigler >Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. And thus finishes this communication from William Bigler Hi Bill and other listers, I have been playing with Auran's Trainz program for nearly a year now, and I can say that it is an excellent program. It was, at first, promoted as at virtual model railroading program. However it has grown to something much greater than that. >Can you create and run sections of the PRR on it? As with all model railroading, you are only limited by the amount of effort you put into it. I put together a medium sized route and offered it for download. Two weeks later and it has been grabbed by over 230 people! There are some beautiful examples of Pennsy items with the latest version (PRR prototypical catenary, for example) Leaning curve: difficulty? Time for non computer nerds like me? All I can tell you is that my seven and ten year old sons use it and have a load of fun with it The interface in the route editor (maker) is fairly straight forward and easy to navigate. I had a layout up and running only hours after getting the program. Best of all there is a demo version available. I'll find out where and post its address ASAP. Yes, I am enthusiastic about this program. This is because I see the potential for the future of Trainz [Vested interest declaration: I am a beta tester for Trainz] Pennsy Australia's No:1 SPF Happy Rails ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 11:47:46 +1000 From: "Mick Molloy" Subject: [PRR] Trainz Demo link Further to my earlier post here is the link to Trainz demo version: http://www.gamesdomain.com/demos/demo/1605.html Mick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Trainz Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 22:35:53 -0400 Are you refering to Microsoft Train Simulator. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Mick Molloy Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 9:37 PM To: PRR Talk Discussion Group Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainz On 16/08/2002 at 8:15 PM William Bigler did electronicly scribble: >Anyone have experience with the Trainz simulation program? Can you create >and run sections of the PRR on it? Leaning curve: difficulty? Time for >non >computer nerds like me? > >TIA > >Bill Bigler >Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. And thus finishes this communication from William Bigler Hi Bill and other listers, I have been playing with Auran's Trainz program for nearly a year now, and I can say that it is an excellent program. It was, at first, promoted as at virtual model railroading program. However it has grown to something much greater than that. >Can you create and run sections of the PRR on it? As with all model railroading, you are only limited by the amount of effort you put into it. I put together a medium sized route and offered it for download. Two weeks later and it has been grabbed by over 230 people! There are some beautiful examples of Pennsy items with the latest version (PRR prototypical catenary, for example) Leaning curve: difficulty? Time for non computer nerds like me? All I can tell you is that my seven and ten year old sons use it and have a load of fun with it The interface in the route editor (maker) is fairly straight forward and easy to navigate. I had a layout up and running only hours after getting the program. Best of all there is a demo version available. I'll find out where and post its address ASAP. Yes, I am enthusiastic about this program. This is because I see the potential for the future of Trainz [Vested interest declaration: I am a beta tester for Trainz] Pennsy Australia's No:1 SPF Happy Rails ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:31:30 +1000 From: "Mick Molloy" Subject: RE: [PRR] Trainz Hi Greg, No, I wasn't speaking about MS Train Simulator It is a fine program and I have a copy myself. I was talking about Auran's program, TRAINZ. While it is similar in some respects, the focus is a little different. To save space on the list, rather than get into a lengthy discussion about Trainz, may I suggest that you, and anyone else who is interested look at the following URL http://www.auran.com/trainz/default.htm Mick *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 16/08/2002 at 10:35 PM Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr. did electronicly scribble: >Are you refering to Microsoft Train Simulator. > >Greg V > >-----Original Message----- >From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Mick >Molloy >Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 9:37 PM >To: PRR Talk Discussion Group >Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainz > > >On 16/08/2002 at 8:15 PM William Bigler did electronicly scribble: > >>Anyone have experience with the Trainz simulation program? Can you create >>and run sections of the PRR on it? Leaning curve: difficulty? Time for >>non >>computer nerds like me? >> >>TIA >> >>Bill Bigler >>Modeling PRR Renovo & >> Williamsport WWII >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > >And thus finishes this communication from William Bigler > > >Hi Bill and other listers, > >I have been playing with Auran's Trainz program for nearly a year now, and >I >can say that it is an excellent program. > >It was, at first, promoted as at virtual model railroading program. >However it has grown to something much greater than that. > >>Can you create and run sections of the PRR on it? >As with all model railroading, you are only limited by the amount of effort >you put into it. >I put together a medium sized route and offered it for download. >Two weeks later and it has been grabbed by over 230 people! > >There are some beautiful examples of Pennsy items with the latest version >(PRR prototypical catenary, for example) > >Leaning curve: difficulty? Time for non computer nerds like me? > >All I can tell you is that my seven and ten year old sons use it and have a >load of fun with it >The interface in the route editor (maker) is fairly straight forward and >easy to navigate. >I had a layout up and running only hours after getting the program. > >Best of all there is a demo version available. I'll find out where and post >its address ASAP. > >Yes, I am enthusiastic about this program. >This is because I see the potential for the future of Trainz > >[Vested interest declaration: I am a beta tester for Trainz] > >Pennsy >Australia's No:1 SPF >Happy Rails > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. And thus finishes this communication from Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Subject: Re: [PRR] Trainz Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 23:48:20 -0400 I have TrainZ and it is a nice program. However the simulation portion is a bit simplistic compared to MSTS. In fact it seems like a sim of a model railroad. However, there is an update (Service Pack 3) that sounds like a major improvement. I have not had time to install it. If you want a nice PRR sim try Trainmaster 4. The Graphics for the scenery is a bit crude compared to MSTS. But, I get the impression that the dynamics of the sim are much more realistic. It includes the line from Altoona up to the curve, through the tunnels and back down again. I also love the line from Denver up through the Moffat tunnel. Has any one with experience as a mainline locomotive engineer tried any of the programs? I would love to hear their comments. Fred Rea ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 8:15 PM Subject: [PRR] Trainz > Anyone have experience with the Trainz simulation program? Can you create > and run sections of the PRR on it? Leaning curve: difficulty? Time for non > computer nerds like me? > > TIA > > Bill Bigler > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:07:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] "Ready to Run" vs Kits --part1_19d.71c3f98.2a8f2613_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/16/2002 12:22:01 PM Central Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: > > > Do you guys remember those PRR ore car kits. I can't remember who > made them but they were tough to build. I tried to build one but it took > to long for just one car. > Now if Kadee or InterMountain came out with a PRR correct G39 > ore jenny "RTR", for $21.00 to 25.00 or a two-pack for $35.00, would you > buy! They wouldn't be able to build enough to satisfy the PRR modelers. > > Hi, That pricing wouldn't be too bad for RTR. I have lived in my little railroad world with one philosophy, get the kit and build it, if its not available as a kit, then kitbash if possible if not buy RTR or brass. Over the years I've managed to build up a decent representation of PRR equipment. The biggest problem being, I bought what grabbed me, now I find out it doesn't always go with a particular time period. About like the time I took 2 AHM E8's and cut them up to make a B unit. Then I tried to find a picture to detail from. Talk about embarassed. I gave it to a buddy who modeled UP. The main ingredient in being successful is to have a focus. Then work towards it. I admit to having a very few Kadee cars, cars I could get no other way. I'm 59 so I no longer have the dexterity or eyesight of my youth, but I still build kits. I got kind of worried when I saw how many Branchline kits I had and hadn't built one yet. So I started building a few of the new kits. They weren't so bad, especially not once you get past the first one. I do have preferences between the brands as to which are more fun to build. I still get pissed when I look at my Eastern depressed center flat I botched, but it wasn't one I categorized as a newer kit. I wish I still had the editorial from the MR in the 50's about the King who got into Model Railroading and hired the finest craftsmen to build it for him. I think of that editorial and realize the hobbist who buys RTR as a rule is missing the most satisfying experience in the hobby. But the fact that we have the option is part of what makes this the greatest hobby in the world. Back to lurking. Al --part1_19d.71c3f98.2a8f2613_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/16/2002 12:22:01 PM Central Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes:




       Do you guys remember those PRR ore car kits. I can't remember who
made them but they were tough to build. I tried to build one but it took
to long for just one car.
        Now if Kadee or InterMountain came out with a PRR correct G39
ore jenny "RTR", for $21.00 to 25.00 or a two-pack for $35.00, would you
buy! They wouldn't be able to build enough to satisfy the PRR modelers.
       
     


Hi,
That pricing wouldn't be too bad for RTR. I have lived in my little railroad world with one philosophy, get the kit and build it, if its not available as a kit, then kitbash if possible if not buy RTR or brass. Over the years I've managed to build up a decent representation of PRR equipment. The biggest problem being, I bought what grabbed me, now I find out it doesn't always go with a particular time period. About like the time I took 2 AHM E8's and cut them up to make a B unit. Then I tried to find a picture to detail from. Talk about embarassed. I gave it  to a buddy who modeled UP. The main ingredient in being successful is to have a focus. Then work towards it. I admit to having a very few Kadee cars, cars I could get no other way.

I'm 59 so I no longer have the dexterity or eyesight of my youth, but I still build kits. I got kind of worried when I saw how many Branchline kits I had and hadn't built one yet. So I started building a few of the new kits. They weren't so bad, especially not once you get past the first one. I do have preferences between the brands as to which are more fun to build. I still get pissed when I look at my Eastern depressed center flat I botched, but it wasn't one I categorized as a newer kit.

I wish I still had the editorial from the MR in the 50's about the King who got into Model Railroading and hired the finest craftsmen to build it for him. I think of that editorial and realize the hobbist who buys RTR as a rule is missing the most satisfying experience in the hobby. But the fact that we have the option is part of what makes this the greatest hobby in the world.

Back to lurking.
Al --part1_19d.71c3f98.2a8f2613_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 07:40:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Andrews Subject: [PRR] RTR vs kits This has been an interesting thread. When I was working part time in a hobby shop, we had a regular customer whose only purchases were trucks and couplers. I think he was the only one who ever bought horn-hook couplers. He was an older gentleman who was very proud of the fact that he scratch built almost everything. He used corrugated cardboard from light bulb packaging for car ends and dress snaps for brake wheels. I forget what paint he used but it wasn't model railroad paint. He brought some of his cars in to show us his work. It was, very frankly, quite crude. The paint was sloppy, the hand lettering crooked and out of scale and the whole car in general looked like the work of a young child. The quality issues might have been due to poor eyesight and diminished manual dexterity. I don't know, but the point is that he was happy and proud of his work and isn't that the whole point of the hobby? There is enough room in this hobby for everyone's approach to it. Joe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 09:16:37 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Kits vs. Pre-assembled in N scale Hi Gregg & list members, With respect to freight car kits, Gregg wrote: > I'm now retired, so time is not a factor, but I'd buy a kit over a > pre-assembled car, even at the same price, for the enjoyment of saying "I > built that". I enjoy building kits as well. I'll further add that I do a better, more careful assembly job than someone who is getting paid pennies an hour to do this all day long. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:48:51 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 08/16/02 From: John Sheets > Um I think that was an HH1 (2-8-8-2) not an L1s (which as you say were > common in the Philly area). The HH1s were based in Enola for the first > year or two, and may have run as far east as Thorndale. One is documented > on the Elmira Branch in "Set Up Running". L2s are not listed as assigned > to any division around Philly in 1944, so they were a non starter with me, > as was the recent P2K USRA 0-6-0. Bruce No it was L-1's read the post, it says there are pictures, have never seen an HH-1 in Philadelphia area Jhon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] National Hobby Supply Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:38:35 -0400

I don't want to sound paranoid, but I would like some advice on whether I should be concerned. I preordered two of the Life-Like Heritage Pennsy 0-6-0's so early, I was one of the first ones to even reserve an 0-6-0 at National Hobby. All the other dealers seem to have gotten in at least a few of the Pennsy, but National Hobby has yet to get one in. I am wondering if this seems a little odd. One person I talked to even said something about having some Pennsy come in already. They do say they will be getting more in, but I wonder if that is true. I beginning to wonder if I should just cancel my reservation at National Hobby Supply and look elsewhere before these engines become scarce. I have shopped there in the past because they are local for me, only about 20 minutes away.
Thanks,
Eric
----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 18:30:13 -0400 From: dwsnrhs@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 longetivity In a message dated Wed, 31 Jul 2002 9:56:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, schlund@cwnet.com writes: > Hi, > > Some time back Lew Matt and I were trying to > get some rough idea how long > the original B60 class of baggage cars lasted > in service. > > Now please note, I'm not talking about the later > B60b class, with it's balloon roof. I'm talking about the > original B60 class, which had a clerestory roof as it's > major spotting feature. The B60 car class was older and > was built much earlier than the B60b, with the earliest B60 > cars being built about 20 years before the first B60b > was constructed. > > Searching thru the ORER is inconclusive, since the ORER > does not list baggage cars by class, and it's impossible > to distinguish the B60 cars from the B60b cars in the ORER > listings. > > So I've looked thru books, searching for dated > photos with B60 class cars in them, and in particular > looking for photos dated as late as possible. > So far, I've found the following: > > (1) "The Many Faces of the Pennsy K4" pg 49 May 1956 > (2) "I Remember Pennsy" pg 14 Aug 1955 > > So the initial conclusion is that the B60 class lasted > at least into May 1956. However, it is entirely > possible that B60 cars lasted beyond this date - after all, > absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence, > right? Also, my book collection is entirely slanted towards > steam, and steam disappeared in the late 1950's, so I have > very few books with photos after that date. > > Anyone else have any thoughts on this? Anyone out there > seen a picture of a diesel pulling a train with > a B60 in it? Preferably with a date on the photo? > > - Claus Hello to List; Just from observation only, my perception is that the B-60 class cars lasted well into the Penn-Central era and up to formation of Amtrak. Penn Central passenger trains were noted for much head-end equipment as observed here in Altoona, PA. The Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS has B-60 No. 9055 in restored form but located on the property of Union Tank Car Co., here in Altoona. In addition during 1969, three B-60 baggage cars were outfitted in Altoona Car Shop for the Golden Spike Limited. Painted with Silver rooves, silver trucks and what I call "robin-egg blue" car bodies, the cars traveled the continent as exhibition cars containing artifacts of United States history. Hope this helps. Dave Seidel, Altoona, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 21:45:09 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] National Hobby Supply --part1_3d.22cded95.2a905625_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/17/02 6:35:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ealauterbach@earthlink.net writes: > I don't want to sound paranoid, but I would like some advice on whether I > should be concerned. I preordered two of the Life-Like Heritage Pennsy > 0-6-0's so early, I was one of the first ones to even reserve an 0-6-0 at > National Hobby. All the other dealers seem to have gotten in at least a few > of the Pennsy, but National Hobby has yet to get one in. I am wondering if > this seems a little odd. One person I talked to even said something about > having some Pennsy come in already. They do say they will be getting more > in, but I wonder if that is true. I beginning to wonder if I should just > cancel my reservation at National Hobby Supply and look elsewhere before > these engines become scarce. I have shopped there in the past because they > are local for me, only about 20 minutes away. > Thanks, > Eric > > Eric, These guys always scare me when it comes to reservations. I never know if I'll get what I ordered or not. The best way to do business with them is in person IMO. One company that has NEVER messed up or "lost" an order for me is Trainworld Todd Horton, Not far up the road from NHS --part1_3d.22cded95.2a905625_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/17/02 6:35:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ealauterbach@earthlink.net writes:


I don't want to sound paranoid, but I would like some advice on whether I should be concerned. I preordered two of the Life-Like Heritage Pennsy 0-6-0's so early, I was one of the first ones to even reserve an 0-6-0 at National Hobby. All the other dealers seem to have gotten in at least a few of the Pennsy, but National Hobby has yet to get one in. I am wondering if this seems a little odd. One person I talked to even said something about having some Pennsy come in already. They do say they will be getting more in, but I wonder if that is true. I beginning to wonder if I should just cancel my reservation at National Hobby Supply and look elsewhere before these engines become scarce. I have shopped there in the past because they are local for me, only about 20 minutes away.
Thanks,
Eric



Eric, These guys always scare me when it comes to reservations. I never know if I'll get what I ordered or not. The best way to do business with them is in person IMO. One company that has NEVER messed up or "lost" an order for me is Trainworld Todd Horton,  Not far up the road from NHS --part1_3d.22cded95.2a905625_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 22:55:09 EDT Subject: [PRR] Resv. -- off subject --part1_174.d2e596b.2a90668d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List, Noted some comments about reservation that were never filled by "XYZ" hobbies. Don't be too hard on your retailer as it is very likely that they do not get all that they ordered or have to order in minimum or case quantities that are not financially viable for them. The reputable shops will not take reservations for all that they have ordered and will only book to around 80%, therefore, hopefully, getting enough to cover the reservation plus have a few for the shelf and to cover any defective units. An extreme example was at a shop where I worked that placed a sizeable order for a limited run diesel loco. Several confirmation checks were done by the shop as the delivery date kept slipping and each time the vendor confirmed the ordered was good. When finally released, the shipment never showed up while many other shops received theirs. When the vendor was contacted as to the order, the response was -- get this one --- we never had an order from you. Why do hobby shop owners go gray early?! Bottom line -- try your list sponsor, Merchandise Service, first. I sure I am like the rest of you SPF's, which highly enjoy this free list service. Evan Leisey --part1_174.d2e596b.2a90668d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List,

  Noted some comments about reservation that were never filled by "XYZ" hobbies.

  Don't be too hard on your retailer as it is very likely that they do not get all that they ordered or have to order in minimum or case quantities that are not financially viable for them.  The reputable shops will not take reservations for all that they have ordered and will only book to around 80%, therefore, hopefully, getting enough to cover the reservation plus have a few for the shelf and to cover any defective units.

  An extreme example was at a shop where I worked that placed a sizeable order  for a limited run diesel loco.  Several confirmation checks were done by the shop as the delivery date kept slipping and each time the vendor confirmed the ordered was good.  When finally released, the shipment never showed up while many other shops received theirs.  When the vendor was contacted as to the order,  the response was -- get this one  ---  we never had an order from you.  Why do hobby shop owners go gray early?!

  Bottom line -- try your list sponsor, Merchandise Service, first.  I sure I am like the rest of you SPF's, which highly enjoy this free list service.

Evan Leisey --part1_174.d2e596b.2a90668d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 01:00:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] 1944 MP229 is online Steve, list, Other listmembers might have mentioned this already, but the 1944 PRR MP229 (Assignment of Locomotives) has been posted online. While too early for your timeframe, it should help you with typical steam classes. http://www.wsbcos.com/mp229/mp229.htm This breaks out PRR engines by division. I'm not sure who did this, but I really appreciate their effort, and I use it regularly for my circa 1948 NY&LB. Doug --- Steve B wrote, in part: So I'll need to know what PRR motive power was used > for freight and switching in my area (Lines West) > for the time period in which I'm working. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 01:39:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] HO grab irons for X-29s in brass? Hello list, I have five of my Red Caboose HO X-29s here with me in Italy. They're beautiful cars, but most of the grab irons (especially those on the left side) didn't survive the movers. I purchased Detail Associates FC 6209 freight car grabs, which seem to be the right shape and size (please let me know if they're not). I looked through my Walthers catalog and didn't see this part in brass; it would be more durable than the flexible plastic DA uses, and more suited to my frequent moves. Does anyone make HO grab irons for X-29s in brass? Doug __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:53:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Resv. -- off subject From: Jerry Britton > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3112512789_3449642 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 8/17/02 10:55 PM, "RDG2124@aol.com" wrote: > Bottom line -- try your list sponsor, Merchandise Service, first. I s= ure I > am like the rest of you SPF's, which highly enjoy this free list service. >=20 >=20 I appreciate Evan=B9s unsolicted plug. His comments are very accurate about manufacturers often continuing to accept orders from retailers and then shorting them when the product comes in. Yes, it happens to Merchandise Service as well. However, we=B9ve been lucky. As far as I can recall, we=B9ve only been shorted in 3-4 instances over the past couple of years. The most recent was Key Imports N scale J1=B9s. We have two units on =B3stand by=B2. Your business is appreciated, but I cannot guarantee perfection. All retailers are at the mercy of the manufacturers and the distributors. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- --B_3112512789_3449642 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] Resv. -- off subject On 8/17/02 10:55 PM, "RDG2124@aol.com" <R= DG2124@aol.com> wrote:

  Bottom = line -- try your list sponsor, Merchandise Service, first.  I sure I am= like the rest of you SPF's, which highly enjoy this free list servic= e.


I appreciate Evan’s unsolicted plug. His comments are very acc= urate about manufacturers often continuing to accept orders from retailers a= nd then shorting them when the product comes in.

Yes, it happens to Merchandise Service as well. However, we’ve been l= ucky. As far as I can recall, we’ve only been shorted in 3-4 instances= over the past couple of years. The most recent was Key Imports N scale J1&#= 8217;s. We have two units on “stand by”.

Your business is appreciated, but I cannot guarantee perfection. All retail= ers are at the mercy of the manufacturers and the distributors.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com  &= nbsp;  Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossi= ngs",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "= Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "M= S", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------
 --B_3112512789_3449642-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO grab irons for X-29s in brass? Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:20:50 -0400 Doug Kisala wrote: "I purchased Detail Associates FC 6209 freight car grabs, which seem to be the right shape and size (please let me know if they're not)." The DA grabs are nicely detailed, but they're too long for most applications, including Class X29 boxcars. "I looked through my Walthers catalog and didn't see this part in brass; it would be more durable than the flexible plastic DA uses, and more suited to my frequent moves. Does anyone make HO grab irons for X-29s in brass?" This part, in the correct length, screams out to be mass-maketed in brass because of durability issues. I plan on traveling with rolling stock to various prototype modeler meets in the coming year, and dealing with broken plastic grabs or paint that won't stay on Derlin grabs gets pretty old in a hurry. However, in the meantime, Ted Culotta posted on the Steam Era Freight Cars Website how to upgrade Proto 2000 kit bracket grab irons with wire which can be applied to other manufacturers' parts as well: http://www.steamfreightcars.com/modeling/articles/bracketsmain.html If you haven't been to this website yet, you're missing out (and that's not because I post content there)! Ben Hom There are NO dashes in PRR freight car classes... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 21:53:20 -0400 From: Ken Meyer Subject: [PRR] MP 229 List, In the "M.P. 229 - Assignment of Locomotives" there is reference to "Locomotives and Tenders Equipped for Back-Up Service." What qualifies a tenders for this service? Ken Meyer Bel Air, Maryland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] MP 229 Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 19:58:09 -0700 Ken, Usually this meant that the tender was equipped with a pilot. Anybody else out there know more? Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Sun, 18 Aug 2002 21:53:20 -0400 Ken Meyer wrote: > List, > In the "M.P. 229 - Assignment of Locomotives" there is > reference to > "Locomotives and Tenders Equipped for Back-Up Service." > What qualifies a > tenders for this service? > Ken Meyer > Bel Air, Maryland > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 23:41:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] MP 229 "Equipped for Back up Service" usally meant headlight and markers on tender. Locomotive does not have to be turned for swiitching. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 10:47:28 +0200 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] Engines "Chany, Christopher" scribit: > After all if your not actually going to string model catenary how can you > justify > having electrics. Well, for those built in Altoona, they all had to be transported over non-electrified rails to reach their working area. And if you are modeling later years, e.g. the one GG1 that broke into the basement of Washington Union Station was rebuild in Altoona AFAIK, and had to be moved back to service from there. Fun in the hobby for me is also some "modelers license", as long as it is prototypical in general, and I can find or invent a convincing story. I love the forms of the GG1, and I own one, however, I do not want to mess around with those wires. So my justification for buying was easy to find. And with older stuff, why should I not start a railway museum on my pike, with enthusiast runs then and now? For me, modeling and railroading is fun, and history is fun, too! Burkhard ____ Burkhard Sanner Lahnau, Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 08:50:11 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: P5As was Re: [PRR] RtR vs. Kits Hey Dave, Y'all said: > No one makes a plastic P5A. Rail Classics is doing them in brass. >They are ready to run! >Boxcab and Modified. How many are you getting. :-) Don't I know it!...However, 1) RC has yet to actually produce a loco (the E6 was cancelled due to lack of reservations) 2) I haven't the faintest how much they will cost (I guestimate in the range of $800-$1000 each...I need 6-7 modifieds and and an additional 5-6 boxcabs but I can't afford THAT kind of hit) 3) Months ago I was told that the "reservations are soft" meaning that, while I did my part and reserved 2 modifieds, y'all have been slow to join in and it may never get produced! Right now, I have 5 ALCO P5A boxcabs in the "shops" (hardly RTR!). These are getting remotored with cans and DCC. In addition, I remove the upper marker lights, and at the moment, one is lying in unsoldered pieces on my desk after trying to remove the window/louver assembly in order to replace it with more prototyical louvers for 1944. Of course I also have an ALCO P5A modified, but since it is welded, I can only have one, it has to be #4770, and for me its a "time warp" since #4770 was returned after her rebuild in January 1945! I do also have an Overland P5A modified, but they really are "rare" and pretty pricey for the quality. So the bottom line for me is that I need 10-13 MORE P5A locos (OK, one could be a P5 and I could run the P5B through on occaision)...so I need BROADWAY LIMITED to do the P5 in plastic (You listening BROADWAY? or hey, EDDY, how about RAIL CLASSICS jumping onto the BLI bandwagon? The P5 is routinely the #1 loco on Jerry's HO survey, year after year after year...). Sometime over a beer, I'll talk about the steamers I need (Hey BLI...how 'bout an L1s after y'all do my P5s...I need 5 or 6!!) Are you starting to understand why I think BLI has such a great idea? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Engines Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:47:56 +0000 For years I fought doing catenary and the gremlins of how do I do it. My last RR had both mains covered and while not up to prototypical snuff was good enough to get many comments. It is like any other aspect that once you jump in and give it a try in isn't tedious at all and is a very satsifying aspect of modeling the PRR. The one thing I learned was to make sure that there are areas without catenary where you can rerail or place equipment on the tracks. N Bell > "Chany, Christopher" scribit: > > > After all if your not actually going to string model catenary how can you > > justify > > having electrics. > > Well, for those built in Altoona, they all had > to be transported over non-electrified rails > to reach their working area. And if you are > modeling later years, e.g. the one GG1 that > broke into the basement of Washington Union > Station was rebuild in Altoona AFAIK, and > had to be moved back to service from there. > > Fun in the hobby for me is also some "modelers > license", as long as it is prototypical in general, > and I can find or invent a convincing story. > I love the forms of the GG1, and I own one, > however, I do not want to mess around with > those wires. So my justification for buying was > easy to find. And with older stuff, why should > I not start a railway museum on my pike, with > enthusiast runs then and now? > > For me, modeling and railroading is fun, and > history is fun, too! > > Burkhard > > ____ > > Burkhard Sanner > Lahnau, Germany > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:49:46 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Gettysburg Show From: Jerry Britton Went to the Gettysburg show for the first time...not for my own benefit, but for the benefit of house guests. Boy, what a disappointment! Hard to believe its put on by the same folks that do the Timonium shows four times a year! Scratch this one off the calendar! More bad news (for some): Model Railroad Stoneworks is discontinuing their N scale line. They haven't sold an N scale Rockville Bridge in many months. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: P5As was Re: [PRR] RtR vs. Kits Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:19:15 -0700 Reality check time, Bruce... Just for grins and giggles just how many P5's do you think the market can handle now...and remember, in plastic, you need to sell a couple of thousand of these to realize the cost of diework...maybe a quarter of a mil for each body? At $250.00 (wholesale) each you would need to sell at least 1000 of these to even break even (and that's before the cost of the drive, frame, assembly, preproduction, sales, distrubution and money costs... It's a nice pipe dream (and I would love to be able to buy some of these in plastic...) but it probably ain't gonna happen...at least in this lifetime. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Gettysburg Show Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:03:32 -0400 Must agree. I was there on Sunday. Purposely went for super detail parts. Not 1 table had anything from Cal-scale, Cary, etc. Horrible show for the 2 hours ride. GV -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 11:50 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Gettysburg Show Went to the Gettysburg show for the first time...not for my own benefit, but for the benefit of house guests. Boy, what a disappointment! Hard to believe its put on by the same folks that do the Timonium shows four times a year! Scratch this one off the calendar! More bad news (for some): Model Railroad Stoneworks is discontinuing their N scale line. They haven't sold an N scale Rockville Bridge in many months. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: P5As was Re: [PRR] RtR vs. Kits Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:08:38 +0000 I've always thought that the B,O, and P classes could be made as a flat kit that the modeler could assemble. The ends are the same and the sides could be designed in a way to snap off the unwanted portions. Aren't the wheels all 6'? so the mechanisms are just multiples of wheel numbers. That way the die work could be spread out over several different kits. I have two of the Alco P5's that I call the grinders. There are an incredible number of drive gears and idlers down one side of the inside of the frame. They run but they sure let you know they are coming. They make Hobbytown drives seem downright quiet. > Reality check time, Bruce... > > Just for grins and giggles just how many P5's do you think > the market can handle now...and remember, in plastic, you > need to sell a couple of thousand of these to realize the > cost of diework...maybe a quarter of a mil for each body? > At $250.00 (wholesale) each you would need to sell at least > 1000 of these to even break even (and that's before the > cost of the drive, frame, assembly, preproduction, sales, > distrubution and money costs... > > It's a nice pipe dream (and I would love to be able to buy > some of these in plastic...) but it probably ain't gonna > happen...at least in this lifetime. > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: P5As was Re: [PRR] RtR vs. Kits Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:46:18 -0700 You know, this wouldn't be such a bad idea, except that the market is going towards ready-to-run instead of kits. Too bad...it's a shame that it's going that way. I agree that the flat kit might be otherwise viable. Bill Daniels On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:08:38 +0000 ndbprr@att.net wrote: > I've always thought that the B,O, and P classes could be > made as a flat kit that the modeler could assemble. The > ends are the same and the sides could be designed in a > way to snap off the unwanted portions. Aren't the wheels > all 6'? so the mechanisms are just multiples of wheel > numbers. That way the die work could be spread out over > several different kits. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:14:48 EDT Subject: [PRR] F&C H30 resin kit --part1_168.125fd4ea.2a929da8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit F&C was at Atlanta this past weekend. He had a lot of new kits to show off. Has anyone built one of these new one piece covered hoppers yet? Todd Horton --part1_168.125fd4ea.2a929da8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit F&C was at Atlanta this past weekend. He had a lot of new kits to show off. Has anyone built one of these new one piece covered hoppers yet?  Todd Horton --part1_168.125fd4ea.2a929da8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 14:32:49 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: P5As was Re: [PRR] RtR vs. Kits We tossed this idea around a few years ago...problem is that the bodies aren't identical...the B is narrower than the P5, O and L boxcabs, the sides are very different and can't be made modular...and it doesn't get me the P5A modifieds I REALLY need (heck I can get the brass boxcabs and rebuilt them!). Also, the B1 drivers are smaller, 62" IIRC than the P5 or O1 (72"). Obviously, a limited audience loco might be better suited for the resin casters, but the chassis is really the hang up here. For a P5, you're starting from scratch and the resin casters by and large aren't set up to make chassis. With the P5 series, you do have the option of 4 bodies on one (OK two) chassis, since you have the P5 boxcab, the P5A boxcab, the P5A modified and the P5B (which would need some mods to the chassis (and the mods would need different lead/trailing trucks...). As for how many could be sold?...beats me, but I'm pretty sure that it would be more than 1000 ...after all, if an E44 came out in plastic, how many folks would buy one of those? I know I would want a couple! Happy Rails Bruce >You know, this wouldn't be such a bad idea, except that the >market is going towards ready-to-run instead of kits. Too >bad...it's a shame that it's going that way. I agree that >the flat kit might be otherwise viable. > >Bill Daniels Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:38:47 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: source for HO Branchline PRR X-44? Walt & lisy, Al's Hobby Shop in Elmhurst , IL had a 4 pack of the 40' X43b in 1957 repaint shadow keystone and at least one of the 50' cars in the counter display. Phone 630-832-4908 Fax 630-832-3812 Web http://www.alshobbyshop.com I have no afiliation except as long time customer. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Walther's Passenger Cars Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:46:13 -0400 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C247B8.3F16005A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Listers, Are Walther's 3 new passenger cars: Baggage-Dorm, 46 seat coach, Grill diner, good for the PRR? I see that they are lettered for PRR but they don't look PRR.; Chris Chany ------_=_NextPart_001_01C247B8.3F16005A Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Listers,
 
Are Walther's 3 new passenger cars:  Baggage-Dorm, 46 seat coach,  Grill diner,  good for the PRR?  I see that they are lettered for PRR but they don't look PRR.;
 
 
 
Chris Chany
------_=_NextPart_001_01C247B8.3F16005A-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:33:42 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Comments on NY Harbor Book Hello all, I would like any comments you might have on the Morning Sun books New York Harbor Railroads in Color, Vol 1 & 2 by Thomas Flagg. In particular, what is the coverage of PRR, and especially, the PRR's navy - tugs, lighters, barges etc? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:23:19 EDT Subject: Re: P5As was Re: [PRR] RtR vs. Kits Bruce you might want to try and contact Marklin. I've heard that their next US items will be a PRR piece and not a steamer. With Roco announcing the HO GG-1 it would be a shame if both Marklin and Roco did a G at the same time. -------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Whistle Sign Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:33:59 -0400 Patrick, Sounds an awful lot to me like something of recent manufacture. I worked for the PRR as well as for a short line that operated some ex-PRR track in Indiana, and I never saw any whistleposts except those with the cast keystone. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 5:09 PM Subject: [PRR] Whistle Sign > I recently picked up a keystone shaped whistle sign. Sign is aluminum with Scotchbrite white with black border and "W". The back of the sign is black, not painted but also an adhesive covering. Signs is flat and does not have any holes. Looking on the web I found drawings from 1905 and 1968. The 1905's are cast and the 1968 signs are square. Any idea of a drawing for my particular sign or a date range? Sign is in mint condition and was stamped for the basic shape but looks cut for the upper keystone angles. > > Any help appreciated, > > Patrick > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] F&C H30 resin kit Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 17:35:13 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_053B_01C247A6.C67C66E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Todd--I have built two for a friend. When I was done with them, = painted and weathered, I thought they were gorgeous. They are in the = mail to him now; I think he will like them, too. F&C modeled the = H30a; I heard somewhere (Steam Freight Cars List?) that a slightly = different H30 is coming. The prototype H30 was more numerous. =20 Please, don't anyone be persuaded that this is a "one piece" kit. The = center sill and hoppers are one piece, but that is all. I strongly = recommend that before anyone attempts one of these, try a Bowser or = better yet an Eastern Car Works covered hopper kit. And replace the = cast ladder grabs with separate wire pieces. It would also be best to = have a little experience with other resin kits. Model/Prototype issues--(1) The model has raised portions on the roof = and the hatches which may not be on the prototype. This question was = asked but not answered on this list earlier this summer. These raised = portions are readily filed/sanded off before assembly, but I left mine = on since no one came forward with a response and no photos that I had = provided a good view of the roof. (2) Photos included in the = instructions are somewhat grainy and sufficient info is not provided = about how the brake gear under the B end slope sheet is to be installed. = Other published photos were not much help either. This area is almost = always in the shadows. Construction--As with any covered hopper kit, difficulties will occur at = the corners with ladders. This one was no exception. Everything must = be assembled square, of course. A piece is provided for the left = upright of the side ladder. This piece and the end casting have NBW = detail and indentations for the wire ladder steps. However, the details = are not aligned properly and, if not compensated for, the ladder rungs = will be angled instead of horizontal. I would be glad to answer any more specific questions off list. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_053B_01C247A6.C67C66E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Todd--I have built two for a = friend.  When=20 I was done with them, painted and weathered, I thought they were = gorgeous. =20 They are in the mail to him now;  I think he will like them,=20 too.   F&C modeled the H30a;  I heard somewhere = (Steam=20 Freight Cars List?) that a slightly different H30 is coming.  The = prototype=20 H30 was more numerous. 
 
Please, don't anyone be persuaded that = this is a=20 "one piece" kit.  The center sill and hoppers are one piece, but = that is=20 all.  I strongly recommend that before anyone attempts one of = these,=20 try a Bowser or better yet an Eastern Car Works covered hopper = kit.  And=20 replace the cast ladder grabs with separate wire pieces.  It would = also be=20 best to have a little experience with other resin kits.
 
Model/Prototype issues--(1) The model = has raised=20 portions on the roof and the hatches which may not be on the = prototype. =20 This question was asked but not answered on this list earlier this = summer. =20 These raised portions are readily filed/sanded off before assembly, but = I left=20 mine on since no one came forward with a response and no photos that I = had=20 provided a good view of the roof.  (2)  Photos included in the = instructions are somewhat grainy and sufficient info is not provided = about how=20 the brake gear under the B end slope sheet is to be installed.  = Other=20 published photos were not much help either.  This area is almost = always in=20 the shadows.
 
Construction--As with any covered = hopper kit,=20 difficulties will occur at the corners with ladders.  This one was = no=20 exception.  Everything must be assembled square, of course.  A = piece=20 is provided for the left upright of the side ladder.  This piece = and the=20 end casting have NBW detail and indentations for the wire ladder = steps. =20 However, the details are not aligned properly and, if not compensated = for, the=20 ladder rungs will be angled instead of horizontal.
 
I would be glad to answer any more = specific=20 questions off list.
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_053B_01C247A6.C67C66E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:34:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: P5As was Re: [PRR] RtR vs. Kits Hey Bruce, I plan to grab 3 P5a electrics when Rail Classics releases them. Two Boxcabs and a Modified. I don't know if I want to weather them or not. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:40:45 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Walther's Passenger Cars --part1_185.cf7fc7c.2a92dbfd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit None of those cars were ever owned by the PRR although similar cars were operated over the Washington - New York mainline in other railroads' through trains. Walther's has produced 2 Budd cars which are prototypical for the Pennsy. The Lounge car is based upon the circa-1952 class PP85 1DR, 29-seat Parlor cars that were operated on the Congressionals (NYP-WAS) and Senators (BOS-WAS) There were sixteen of those cars and at least some lasted up until Amtrak. The paint scheme on the Walther's car is representative of the Pennsy's Congressional/Senator equipment. The other Walther's model that works for the Pennsy is the 52-seat coach which represents a class P85eR. There were ten of these coaches owned by the PRR and numbered 4058 - 4067. They were delivered in March 1947 and assigned to Seaboard Air Line's Silver Meteor service. The black lettering on the silver letterboard was intended to allow the Pennsy cars to blend in with the rest of the Meteor's consist. Most Budd-built Pennsy equipment of the era was painted over in Tuscan red, despite the stainless steel fluted sides. Chris Baker --part1_185.cf7fc7c.2a92dbfd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit None of those cars were ever owned by the PRR although similar cars were operated over the Washington - New York mainline in other railroads' through trains.

Walther's has produced 2 Budd cars which are prototypical for the Pennsy.

The Lounge car is based upon the circa-1952 class PP85 1DR, 29-seat Parlor cars that were operated on the Congressionals (NYP-WAS) and Senators (BOS-WAS)  There were sixteen of those cars and at least some lasted up until Amtrak.  The paint scheme on the Walther's car is representative of the Pennsy's Congressional/Senator equipment. 

The other Walther's model that works for the Pennsy is the 52-seat coach which represents a class P85eR.  There were ten of these coaches owned by the PRR and numbered 4058 - 4067.  They were delivered in March 1947 and assigned to Seaboard Air Line's Silver Meteor service.  The black lettering on the silver letterboard was intended to allow the Pennsy cars to blend in with the rest of the Meteor's consist.  Most Budd-built Pennsy equipment of the era was painted over in Tuscan red, despite the stainless steel fluted sides.

Chris Baker --part1_185.cf7fc7c.2a92dbfd_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 20:04:17 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 08/19/02 --part1_ca.fe0efa0.2a92e181_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I also went to Gettysburg and thought it was a pretty good show considering the size. I came home broke! Picked up a U23B for $15 less than seen anywhere including the New York mail order houses plus found a couple other good buys. Did spend a little more than expected on Digitrax decoders and fortunately I was not looking for detail type stuff "'cuz there weren't none". Several others folks in my CPRR operating group also found some great buys. I guess it's all in what you're looking for and how broke you are when you leave. Bob Martin --part1_ca.fe0efa0.2a92e181_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I also went to Gettysburg and thought it was a pretty good show considering the size.   I came home broke!  Picked up a U23B for $15 less than seen anywhere including the New York mail order houses plus found a couple other good buys.  Did spend a little more than expected on Digitrax decoders and fortunately I was not looking for detail type stuff "'cuz there weren't none".  Several others folks in my CPRR operating group also found some great buys.  I guess it's all in what you're looking for and how broke you are when you leave.

Bob Martin

    --part1_ca.fe0efa0.2a92e181_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:00:20 -0400 From: Ken Meyer Subject: [PRR] MP 229 - back-up service List, Would locomotives with tenders NOT equipped for back-up service (large headlight, marker lights, cab signal pick-up bar) be restricted to yard limits only. Ken Meyer, Bel Air, Maryland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:39:07 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Whistle Signs I own what I believe to be an original, though I did not "liberate" it personally. It is cast iron, (weighs in the neighborhood of 25 # ) 16 1/4" high and includes a 3" round I.D. "collar" cast integrally, for post mounting, on the rear. (Tapped 1/2-13 for a set screw) The back is painted black, and # M53845 (The mold #?) is cast into the piece - A lot of the ones around here, on lines that the N&W got - at the creation of Conrail were "vandalized" into a rhomboid, by knocking off, with a mallet, the top portion of the key. Still a Keystone, just not a PRR keystone. Later signs added to these lines were equivalent to "no parking" signs, but sized and shaped like the professionally vandalized keystones. The interesting thing about these is that Pennsy, apparently, considered "Whistle" to be a command verb - not a noun, because the comparable, and really rare, "in town" sign telling enginemen to use the Bell featured the letter "R" as in "Ring," not the letter "B" as in "Bell." Dick Ross, Cleveland, ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:54:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] F&C H30 resin kit --part1_23.22d0538b.2a92fb53_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/19/02 5:45:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > > Dang, missed him! (Actually, I picked up 11 kits from Steve and Sharon in > Greenville in May). I have not actually built the H30A kit but it has had > good reviews. When I saw them in Greenville, Sharon indicated that the H30 > was coming shortly...did they have it yet? I wonder how their MP54 project > is coming as well... > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce, they had the H30 kits in Atlanta. I didn't buy any because I wasn't sure if it was a good kit or not. He had a built up version on display, it looked very good. No mention of the MP-54. Todd Horton --part1_23.22d0538b.2a92fb53_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/19/02 5:45:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes:



Dang, missed him! (Actually, I picked up 11 kits from Steve and Sharon in
Greenville in May).  I have not actually built the H30A kit but it has had
good reviews.  When I saw them in Greenville, Sharon indicated that the H30
was coming shortly...did they have it yet?  I wonder how their MP54 project
is coming as well...

Happy Rails
Bruce



Bruce, they had the H30 kits in Atlanta. I didn't buy any because I wasn't sure if it was a good kit or not. He had a built up version on display, it looked very good. No mention of the MP-54. Todd Horton --part1_23.22d0538b.2a92fb53_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:00:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Whistle Signs --part1_74.21986dcb.2a92fca4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/19/02 9:46:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, VVA249@aol.com writes: > > > > > > I own what I believe to be an original, though I did not "liberate" it > personally. It is cast iron, (weighs in the neighborhood of 25 # ) 16 1/4" > high and includes a 3" round I.D. "collar" cast integrally, for post > mounting, on the rear. (Tapped 1/2-13 for a set screw) The back is painted > Mine is just like the one you mention. I think any of them made from aluminum is a repo. FWIW Todd Horton --part1_74.21986dcb.2a92fca4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/19/02 9:46:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, VVA249@aol.com writes:







   I own what I believe to be an original, though I did not "liberate" it
personally. It is cast iron, (weighs in the neighborhood of 25 # ) 16 1/4"
high and includes a 3" round I.D. "collar" cast integrally, for post
mounting, on the rear. (Tapped 1/2-13 for a set screw) The back is painted
black


Mine is just like the one you mention. I think any of them made from aluminum is a repo. FWIW Todd Horton --part1_74.21986dcb.2a92fca4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Ken Meyer Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:00:20 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] MP 229 - back-up service List, Would locomotives with tenders NOT equipped for back-up service (large headlight, marker lights, cab signal pick-up bar) be restricted to yard limits only. Ken Meyer, Bel Air, Maryland ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:25:06 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Microscale's decal sheet 60-66 To PRR list and Bernie Kempinsky, Hi, An informational item for N and HO scalers decaling PRR K4 class locos. While I'm working in N scale, this is relevant to Hugely Oversized modelers as well... On Microscale's decal sheet 60-66 "Pennsylvania Steam Locos" you will find the following number sequences which can be used on PRR K4 locos AS-IS without any splicing - so when modeling a K4, selecting one of these numbers will make the decaling job just a little bit easier! While I have not checked, I assume the HO sheet has the same number sequences, and therefore this might apply there as well. 8 12 299 837 945 3762 3882 Bernie: These numbers might be good candidates for inclusion on the next run of Alkem PRR number plates as keystone plates - between your number plates and the Microscale decal sheet, this would make modeling the above locos a snap. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 21:45:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] F&C H30 resin kit Todd, list, I ordered an H30A in late May. Mine is almost ready for decals now. This is my 8th resin kit and my first resin covered hopper. It is a nice kit; directions aren't as good as Sunshine or Westerfield, but I was able to find enough prototype photos to make up for things. I picked an H30a that ran on roller bearing trucks for variety. This would not be a good choice for a first resin kit (pick a boxcar); resin hoppers are challenging (not F&C specific) for me. Doug --- CENTGA@aol.com wrote: > F&C was at Atlanta this past weekend. He had a lot > of new kits to show off. > Has anyone built one of these new one piece covered > hoppers yet? Todd Horton > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Whistle Signs Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:16:04 -0500 My understanding is that they Keystone cast iron whistle signs were strewn all over the right of way of the Sandusky branch once the N&W took over. -----Original Message----- From: VVA249@aol.com [mailto:VVA249@aol.com] Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 8:39 PM To: mahlkov@gtcom.net; yunz@verizon.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Whistle Signs I own what I believe to be an original, though I did not "liberate" it personally. It is cast iron, (weighs in the neighborhood of 25 # ) 16 1/4" high and includes a 3" round I.D. "collar" cast integrally, for post mounting, on the rear. (Tapped 1/2-13 for a set screw) The back is painted black, and # M53845 (The mold #?) is cast into the piece - A lot of the ones around here, on lines that the N&W got - at the creation of Conrail were "vandalized" into a rhomboid, by knocking off, with a mallet, the top portion of the key. Still a Keystone, just not a PRR keystone. Later signs added to these lines were equivalent to "no parking" signs, but sized and shaped like the professionally vandalized keystones. The interesting thing about these is that Pennsy, apparently, considered "Whistle" to be a command verb - not a noun, because the comparable, and really rare, "in town" sign telling enginemen to use the Bell featured the letter "R" as in "Ring," not the letter "B" as in "Bell." Dick Ross, Cleveland, ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Microscale's decal sheet 60-66 Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:18:25 -0500 Check the color consistency if you choose to use Microscale decals from different sheets. I've noticed significant differences between sheets even with the same catalog number. -----Original Message----- From: Claus Schlund [mailto:schlund@cwnet.com] Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 11:25 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Cc: bkempins@ida.org Subject: [PRR] Microscale's decal sheet 60-66 To PRR list and Bernie Kempinsky, Hi, An informational item for N and HO scalers decaling PRR K4 class locos. While I'm working in N scale, this is relevant to Hugely Oversized modelers as well... On Microscale's decal sheet 60-66 "Pennsylvania Steam Locos" you will find the following number sequences which can be used on PRR K4 locos AS-IS without any splicing - so when modeling a K4, selecting one of these numbers will make the decaling job just a little bit easier! While I have not checked, I assume the HO sheet has the same number sequences, and therefore this might apply there as well. 8 12 299 837 945 3762 3882 Bernie: These numbers might be good candidates for inclusion on the next run of Alkem PRR number plates as keystone plates - between your number plates and the Microscale decal sheet, this would make modeling the above locos a snap. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pete Reinhold" Subject: [PRR] H21a Questions Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:22:38 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C2483B.E80865D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry and list, I've been looking at the book on PRR open hoppers and photos of H21 hoppers. I have noted that a lot of '50s era photos show the original hand brake on some these cars. My limited research leads me to believe that when AB brakes were applied it does not mean that power hand brake was also applied. Was the power hand brake only used on the H21e rebuilds? Speaking of AB brakes, how many of the H21s had been converted to AB brakes by 1950. Was the change from top operated couplers and carmer cut levers to bottom operated couplers and rod cut levers part of a rebuild program or just normal maintenance. Does anyone (other than Sunshine Models) offer a carmer cut lever in HO? A more general question. When did the PRR start using smooth back wheels when replacing worn out wheels? Thanks in advance, Pete Reinhold Elmira branch in 1950 ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C2483B.E80865D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Jerry and list,

 

  = I’ve been looking at the book on PRR open hoppers and photos of H21 hoppers. I = have noted that a lot of ‘50s era photos show the original hand brake on some = these cars. My limited research leads me to believe that when AB brakes were = applied it does not mean that power hand brake was also applied. Was the power = hand brake only used on the H21e rebuilds?

 

   = Speaking of AB brakes, how many of the H21s had been converted to AB brakes by = 1950.

 

  Was = the change from top operated couplers and carmer cut = levers to bottom operated couplers and rod cut levers part of a rebuild program or = just normal maintenance. Does anyone (other than Sunshine Models) offer a = carmer cut lever in = HO?

 

  A more general question. When did the PRR start = using smooth back wheels when replacing worn out wheels?

 

Thanks in advance,

Pete Reinhold

Elmira branch in = 1950

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C2483B.E80865D0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Engines Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:10:45 -0400 Listers, While we're on the topic of trying to fit our favorite PRR engines into the era/locale we want to model, I have the following question: I am a fan of the "transfer units" whether they be Baldwin or Lima-Hamilton. When did they arrive on the property and when did they last to? Also were any stationed in the state of Pennsylvania? Thanks in advance. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:28:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Engines From: Jerry Britton On 8/20/02 1:10 PM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > While we're on the topic of trying to fit our favorite PRR engines into the > era/locale we want to model, I have the following question: I am a fan of > the "transfer units" whether they be Baldwin or Lima-Hamilton. When did > they arrive on the property and when did they last to? Also were any > stationed in the state of Pennsylvania? > Info from the Motive Ops section of Keystone Crossings: The Lima Hamilton T2500's, PRR class LS25 (13 units5 and LS25m (9 units), arrived on the PRR in 1950. I don't have documents and photos to look at, but Baldwin had a model RT-624. It think it was a "transfer" type loco as above. If it is, it was PRR class BS24 (2 units) and BS24m (21 units) and first arrived in 1951. There were 21 units in this class. I do not readily have data on how long they were rostered or where they were assigned. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Engines Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:47:59 +0000 Pennsy Power 2 shows a pair on an ore transfer run from south Philadelphia the Bethlehem, PA. Most pictures show them in drag freight type usage so I would expect them to have congregated where coal and ore were prevalent. Most were probably in the Pittsburgh/West Virginia area and coal mine runs. > Listers, > > While we're on the topic of trying to fit our favorite PRR engines into the > era/locale we want to model, I have the following question: I am a fan of > the "transfer units" whether they be Baldwin or Lima-Hamilton. When did > they arrive on the property and when did they last to? Also were any > stationed in the state of Pennsylvania? > > Thanks in advance. > > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:03:22 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: P5As was Re: [PRR] RtR vs. Kits Evan sez: >If one version of the P5 could be acquired then body casting kits for the >other version of the P5 would be feasible. I would certainly be in line >for a few box cab and at least one center cab P5. Evan Leisey You know, that's a GREAT idea! That way, the manufacturer needs only do the tooling for say...the P5A modified body...then the resin gang can come in with additional bodies, and the tooling for the drive train can be used for these too...I've always said that the hang up was the drive train. So if we could get mass production of a drive then the other versions can follow. I can scratchbuild a boxcab if I need to (the modifieds are a lot harder due to the curves!) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:08:33 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: P5As was Re: [PRR] RtR vs. Kits > Hey Bruce, > > I plan to grab 3 P5a electrics when Rail Classics releases them. >Two Boxcabs and a Modified. I don't know if I want to weather them or >not. > > Dave Hmmm, I've only seen one shot of a clean P5 after about 1938...that was the 4700 excursion that is in all the books. They never saw the wash rack, and only very occaisionally did they get a bucket scrub...heck, I think some enginemen sware the dirt held them together and helped plug some of the holes! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:15:49 -0400 Subject: Re: P5As was Re: [PRR] RtR vs. Kits From: Jerry Britton On 8/20/02 2:03 PM, Bruce F. Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > Evan sez: > >> If one version of the P5 could be acquired then body casting kits for the >> other version of the P5 would be feasible. I would certainly be in line >> for a few box cab and at least one center cab P5. Evan Leisey > > You know, that's a GREAT idea! That way, the manufacturer needs only do > the tooling for say...the P5A modified body...then the resin gang can come > in with additional bodies, and the tooling for the drive train can be used > for these too...I've always said that the hang up was the drive train. So > if we could get mass production of a drive then the other versions can > follow. I can scratchbuild a boxcab if I need to (the modifieds are a lot > harder due to the curves!) > Ahem...don't forget the N scale versions, Bruce! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Chicago Chapter Meeting Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:52:10 +0000 Just in case there is anyone who hasn't read about our effort we will be having an organizational meeting (read 1st meeting!!!)on October 5, 2002. This is a unique chance to be a charter member of a new PRRT&HS chapter. We already have someone who is willing to share information he has collected. We will have time to do some railfanning after the meeting of PRR and/or other railroads in the area. There are several motels within blocks of where we will have our initial meeting which is on a Saturday afternoon. We have interest from people in Wisconsin through Michigan and even one from the Pittsburgh area. Please contact me off list if you want me to include you in our mailings as we get closer to 10/5 - 44 days to go. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: P5As was Re: [PRR] RtR vs. Kits Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:26:23 -0400 Listers, Bruce Smith wrote: after all, if an E44 came out in plastic, how many folks would buy one of those? I know I would want a couple! We met get an idea of how well a limited appeal electric will do when Bachman brings out their E-33. Who knows if it does well an E-44 might follow and maybe if it does well they will decide to bring out older juice jacks. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:32:07 EDT Subject: Re: P5As was Re: [PRR] RtR vs. Kits --part1_18a.cc12efb.2a940147_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/20/02 2:18:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > I've only seen one shot of a clean P5 after about 1938...that was the 4700 > excursion that is in all the books. They never saw the wash rack, and only > very occaisionally did they get a bucket scrub...heck, I think some > enginemen sware the dirt held them together and helped plug some of the > holes! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > Hi Bruce and others, On Page 42 of Morning Sun Books' "Pennsy Electric Years", Bill Volkmer writes "The P-5's, thanks to the interested management at Enola where they were maintained, would get a bucket-and-brush bath once a month in the roundhouse where there was no overhead wire to interfere with the washing." I know that Bill speaks from personal experience and several photos in the book back up his statement. Best regards, Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_18a.cc12efb.2a940147_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/20/02 2:18:12 PM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes:


I've only seen one shot of a clean P5 after about 1938...that was the 4700
excursion that is in all the books.  They never saw the wash rack, and only
very occaisionally did they get a bucket scrub...heck, I think some
enginemen sware the dirt held them together and helped plug some of the
holes!

Happy Rails
Bruce


Hi Bruce and others,

On Page 42 of Morning Sun Books' "Pennsy Electric Years", Bill Volkmer writes "The P-5's, thanks to the interested management at Enola where they were maintained, would get a bucket-and-brush bath once a month in the roundhouse where there was no overhead wire to interfere with the washing."  I know that Bill speaks from personal experience and several photos in the book back up his statement.

Best regards,

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_18a.cc12efb.2a940147_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] Engines Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:13:07 +0100 The Colour guides to PRR diesels suggest that Baldwin transfer units were active into the mid 60's in both the Altoona/Cresson area and around Philadelphia. The Lima units seem to have been based further west. Patrik Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Chany, Christopher" ; Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 6:47 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Engines > Pennsy Power 2 shows a pair on an ore transfer run from > south Philadelphia the Bethlehem, PA. Most pictures > show them in drag freight type usage so I would expect > them to have congregated where coal and ore were > prevalent. Most were probably in the Pittsburgh/West > Virginia area and coal mine runs. > > Listers, > > > > While we're on the topic of trying to fit our favorite PRR engines into the > > era/locale we want to model, I have the following question: I am a fan of > > the "transfer units" whether they be Baldwin or Lima-Hamilton. When did > > they arrive on the property and when did they last to? Also were any > > stationed in the state of Pennsylvania? > > > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Chris Chany > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:15:10 -0400 From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Metric system dates from 19th century On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 07:02:35AM -0400, LeeRainey@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/7/2002 6:48:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > Burkhard.Sanner@geolo.uni-giessen.de writes: > > << DIN did not invent SI or metric units >> > > The system was actually invented by the French at the turn of the 18th/19th > century. It has been in use in the US since the 1850s, when the US Congress > enacted a law that made the metric system an official, though alternate, > system of measurement. For example, the system is discussed in the army > ordnance manuals issued in the 1860s during the Civil War. > > Lee Rainey Sorry for re-resurrecting an old thread, the very beginning of which I managed to miss ... I believe Congress's adoption of the metric system was the 1870s, but I may be wrong. However, saying that the metric system was adopted as an "alternate" system of measurement gives I believe the wrong impression. Congress merely passed a law making use of the metric system officially sanctioned -- meaning that it was henceforth official that one could use the system. There was nothing saying that metric was alternate, subsidiary, etc. Note, however, that there is nothing making the English system official in the U.S. The National Institute of Standars and Technology (former National Bureau of Standards) refers to the English system as the "U.S. Customary System". I.e., it is by custom - individual agreement/contract - that this system is used in the US. Besides, wholesale conversion of the US to metric is not within the purview of the US government, though it (the gov't) has grown large enough in the last half-century that, if it chose to do business exclusively in the metric system, essentially all businesses would be forced to go along. For the record, there was EXTENSIVE and SERIOUS discussion regarding systems of units in the railroad trade press of the late 1880s and all through the 1890s. One final note for you English system snobs :-) --- remember that the US was the FIRST country to invent and implement a decimal system[*]. Yes, Virginia, our monetary system of 100 cents = 10 dimes = 1 dollar was a RADICAL concept in its day (as were many other late 1700s American concepts, at the time). We stepped away from the 240 pence = 20 shillings = 1 pound system, and even this equality does not begin to demonstrate the complexity of the old British monetary units, what with halfpennies, florins, half-crowns, crowns, guineas, etc. that came with it. If *we* had been the ones to carry the decimal concept forward into units other than money, and not the French, we would have been just as snobbishly looking down our noses at the Canadians and British as they got away from their old system of units, rather than being the last country of any significant size to adopt a decimal system for all units. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:21:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR: train ride From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" It ain't PRR, but if anyone on the list in the Houston-Galveston area wants to take a train ride for free, now is your chance. The Galveston RR Museum is sponsoring rides on Amtrak from Galveston to Houston on Sunday and Monday, September 1 and 2. Reservations are required. To see the time table and obtain the reservation number, visit the Museum web page: www.tamug.tamu.edu/rrmuseum Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:23:38 -0400 From: Chris Brandt Subject: Re: [PRR] Metric system dates from 19th century Imagine what a PRR timetable would have looked like had the metric system been brought to it's logical conclusion -- decimal time. http://zapatopi.net/metrictime.html Mark Bej wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 07:02:35AM -0400, LeeRainey@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 8/7/2002 6:48:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > Burkhard.Sanner@geolo.uni-giessen.de writes: > > > > << DIN did not invent SI or metric units >> > > > > The system was actually invented by the French at the turn of the 18th/19th > > century. It has been in use in the US since the 1850s, when the US Congress > > enacted a law that made the metric system an official, though alternate, > > system of measurement. For example, the system is discussed in the army > > ordnance manuals issued in the 1860s during the Civil War. > > > > Lee Rainey > > Sorry for re-resurrecting an old thread, the very beginning of which I > managed to miss ... > > I believe Congress's adoption of the metric system was the 1870s, but I > may be wrong. > > However, saying that the metric system was adopted as an "alternate" system > of measurement gives I believe the wrong impression. Congress merely passed > a law making use of the metric system officially sanctioned -- meaning that > it was henceforth official that one could use the system. There was nothing > saying that metric was alternate, subsidiary, etc. > > Note, however, that there is nothing making the English system official in > the U.S. The National Institute of Standars and Technology (former National > Bureau of Standards) refers to the English system as the "U.S. Customary > System". I.e., it is by custom - individual agreement/contract - that this > system is used in the US. Besides, wholesale conversion of the US to metric > is not within the purview of the US government, though it (the gov't) has > grown large enough in the last half-century that, if it chose to do business > exclusively in the metric system, essentially all businesses would be forced > to go along. > > For the record, there was EXTENSIVE and SERIOUS discussion regarding systems > of units in the railroad trade press of the late 1880s and all through the > 1890s. > > One final note for you English system snobs :-) --- remember that the US was > the FIRST country to invent and implement a decimal system[*]. Yes, Virginia, > our monetary system of 100 cents = 10 dimes = 1 dollar was a RADICAL concept > in its day (as were many other late 1700s American concepts, at the time). > We stepped away from the 240 pence = 20 shillings = 1 pound system, and even > this equality does not begin to demonstrate the complexity of the old British > monetary units, what with halfpennies, florins, half-crowns, crowns, guineas, > etc. that came with it. If *we* had been the ones to carry the decimal concept > forward into units other than money, and not the French, we would have been > just as snobbishly looking down our noses at the Canadians and British as they > got away from their old system of units, rather than being the last country > of any significant size to adopt a decimal system for all units. > > -- > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- Chris Brandt cobrandt@eclipse.net http://pennsylvaniarailroad.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 06:29:04 -0400 From: Dale Dembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] Whistle Signs Several years ago we were able to ride from Marion to Bellevue on an excursion run (behind N&W 611!). I can tell you that there were many, many PRR whistle signs with the top part of the keystone cut off to make the posts look more like squared-off traditional N&W whistle posts. "Cadwell, Marvin L" wrote: > My understanding is that they Keystone cast iron whistle signs were strewn > all over the right of way of the Sandusky branch once the N&W took over. > > -----Original Message----- > From: VVA249@aol.com [mailto:VVA249@aol.com] > Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 8:39 PM > To: mahlkov@gtcom.net; yunz@verizon.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Whistle Signs > > I own what I believe to be an original, though I did not "liberate" it > personally. It is cast iron, (weighs in the neighborhood of 25 # ) 16 1/4" > high and includes a 3" round I.D. "collar" cast integrally, for post > mounting, on the rear. (Tapped 1/2-13 for a set screw) The back is painted > black, and # M53845 (The mold #?) is cast into the piece - > A lot of the ones around here, on lines that the N&W got - at the > creation of Conrail were "vandalized" into a rhomboid, by knocking off, with > > a mallet, the top portion of the key. Still a Keystone, just not a PRR > keystone. Later signs added to these lines were equivalent to "no parking" > signs, but sized and shaped like the professionally vandalized keystones. > The interesting thing about these is that Pennsy, apparently, considered > > "Whistle" to be a command verb - not a noun, because the comparable, and > really rare, "in town" sign telling enginemen to use the Bell featured the > letter "R" as in "Ring," not the letter "B" as in "Bell." > > Dick Ross, > Cleveland, > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Engines Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:30:46 -0700 Hi Chris, I am also a big fan of the Transfer units. The Limas came in 1950 and 51, I believe. None of the Lima units were stationed in Pa., but some of the m.u. eqpt ones made it on tranfer runs out of Mingo, usually in pairs. However, most of the time they stayed in Ohio. The non-m.u. ones were stationed in places like Columbus, Cinci and Chicago, again, I believe. They were used as "hump" engines, although they really only did heavy switching. The RT-624's were found many places, as some have mentioned, Philly and Pgh. The late ones with double-equlaized trucks were based in Philly and did ore runs. The ones I remember in Pgh were (I think I remember) 8954 which was a non-dynamic Commonwealth trucked unit that I used to see west of Pgh on transfers and around Conway. It was filthy all the time and got no cleaning prior to its disappearance, which I think was around '66. Then there were 8959 and 8960 which were dynamic eqpt Commonwealth trucked units that operated out of Pitcairn. They did hump service and transfers, but no really long runs like to Altoona if I remember correctly. They may have been retired a little earlier, but I used to see them in the Mon Valley. There were others that did helper service out of Conemaugh going east in earlier days (1950's?), but I was not around to see them in that service. If you want to chat about modeling these guys, drop me a line. I have plans..... Elden -----Original Message----- From: Chany, Christopher [mailto:cpc1@westchestergov.com] Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 10:11 AM Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Engines Listers, While we're on the topic of trying to fit our favorite PRR engines into the era/locale we want to model, I have the following question: I am a fan of the "transfer units" whether they be Baldwin or Lima-Hamilton. When did they arrive on the property and when did they last to? Also were any stationed in the state of Pennsylvania? Thanks in advance. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 21:06:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Comments on NY Harbor Book --part1_188.cc5cd7f.2a94418b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/19/02 5:41:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > I would like any comments you might have on the Morning Sun books New York > Harbor Railroads in Color, Vol 1 & 2 by Thomas Flagg. > > In particular, what is the coverage of PRR, and especially, the PRR's navy > - tugs, lighters, barges etc? > > Bruce, the book is good IMO, it shows several shots of PRR tugs. The barges don't get as much coverage but you see a few shots of them in dry dock repair areas. My only complaint is that it seems that most of the photos are from the 60's and later. Todd Horton --part1_188.cc5cd7f.2a94418b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/19/02 5:41:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes:


I would like any comments you might have on the Morning Sun books New York
Harbor Railroads in Color, Vol 1 & 2 by Thomas Flagg.

In particular, what is the coverage of PRR, and especially, the PRR's navy
- tugs, lighters, barges etc?



Bruce, the book is good IMO, it shows several shots of PRR tugs. The barges don't get as much coverage but you see a few shots of them in dry dock repair areas. My only complaint is that it seems that most of the photos are from the 60's and later. Todd Horton --part1_188.cc5cd7f.2a94418b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 21:07:43 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] F&C H30 resin kit --part1_16d.12741b8e.2a9441df_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/19/02 6:43:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, steveh@dotstar.net writes: > > Please, don't anyone be persuaded that this is a "one piece" kit. The > center sill and hoppers are one piece, but that is all. I strongly > recommend that before anyone attempts one of these, try a Bowser or better > yet an Eastern Car Works covered hopper kit. And replace the cast ladder > grabs with separate wire pieces. It would also be best to have a little > experience with other resin kits > Thanks Steve, I was under the impression that the body was a one piece casting. Any idea how long it took you to build this kit? Todd Horton --part1_16d.12741b8e.2a9441df_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/19/02 6:43:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, steveh@dotstar.net writes:



Please, don't anyone be persuaded that this is a "one piece" kit.  The center sill and hoppers are one piece, but that is all.  I strongly recommend that before anyone attempts one of these, try a Bowser or better yet an Eastern Car Works covered hopper kit.  And replace the cast ladder grabs with separate wire pieces.  It would also be best to have a little experience with other resin kits


Thanks Steve, I was under the impression that the body was a one piece casting. Any idea how long it took you to build this kit? Todd Horton --part1_16d.12741b8e.2a9441df_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 21:09:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Whistle Signs --part1_16c.12755a17.2a944260_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/20/02 9:24:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cadwelml@bp.com writes: > My understanding is that they Keystone cast iron whistle signs were strewn > all over the right of way of the Sandusky branch once the N&W took over. > > What was the reason for this? Todd Horton --part1_16c.12755a17.2a944260_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/20/02 9:24:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, cadwelml@bp.com writes:


My understanding is that they Keystone cast iron whistle signs were strewn
all over the right of way of the Sandusky branch once the N&W took over.



What was the reason for this? Todd Horton --part1_16c.12755a17.2a944260_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] F&C H30 resin kit Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:30:17 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0109_01C24899.29101070 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Todd--I think I spent about three evenings on each one plus = paint/decals/weathering. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL >Thanks Steve, I was under the impression that the body was a one piece = casting. Any idea how long it took you to >build this kit? Todd Horton=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0109_01C24899.29101070 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Todd--I think I spent about three = evenings on=20 each one plus paint/decals/weathering.
 
Steve=20 Hoxie
Pensacola FL


>Thanks Steve, I was under the impression = that the=20 body was a one piece casting. Any idea how long it took you to >build = this=20 kit? Todd Horton
------=_NextPart_000_0109_01C24899.29101070-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 01:17:42 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Transfer Locos --part1_126.158b252e.2a947c76_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recall these units making it to Reading, Pa. and up the PRR's Schuylkill Div. into the Pottsville area into the mid to late 60's. Normal power on this div. was the EMD roadswitchers "Geeps". On a Penn Valley video they show one running in the 50's up this div. at Mt. Carbon between Port Clinton and Pottsville. Evan Leisey --part1_126.158b252e.2a947c76_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recall these units making it to Reading, Pa. and up the PRR's Schuylkill Div. into the Pottsville area into the mid to late 60's. Normal power on this div. was the EMD roadswitchers "Geeps".

 On a Penn Valley video they show one running in the 50's up this div. at Mt. Carbon between Port Clinton and Pottsville.

 Evan Leisey --part1_126.158b252e.2a947c76_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] Engines Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:06:25 +0100 Hi Chris & Elden, There was a RMC article some years ago about making a Baldwin transfer unit using 2 Stewart AS616 bodies. Patrick Grace www.prr.org.uk From: "ELDEN GATWOOD" To: "Chany, Christopher" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 12:30 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Engines > Hi Chris, I am also a big fan of the Transfer units. The Limas came in > 1950 and 51, I believe. None of the Lima units were stationed in Pa., but > some of the m.u. eqpt ones made it on tranfer runs out of Mingo, usually in > pairs. However, most of the time they stayed in Ohio. The non-m.u. ones > were stationed in places like Columbus, Cinci and Chicago, again, I believe. > They were used as "hump" engines, although they really only did heavy > switching. The RT-624's were found many places, as some have mentioned, > Philly and Pgh. The late ones with double-equlaized trucks were based in > Philly and did ore runs. The ones I remember in Pgh were (I think I > remember) 8954 which was a non-dynamic Commonwealth trucked unit that I used > to see west of Pgh on transfers and around Conway. It was filthy all the > time and got no cleaning prior to its disappearance, which I think was > around '66. Then there were 8959 and 8960 which were dynamic eqpt > Commonwealth trucked units that operated out of Pitcairn. They did hump > service and transfers, but no really long runs like to Altoona if I remember > correctly. They may have been retired a little earlier, but I used to see > them in the Mon Valley. There were others that did helper service out of > Conemaugh going east in earlier days (1950's?), but I was not around to see > them in that service. If you want to chat about modeling these guys, drop > me a line. I have plans..... > Elden > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chany, Christopher [mailto:cpc1@westchestergov.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 10:11 AM > Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: RE: [PRR] Engines > > > Listers, > > While we're on the topic of trying to fit our favorite PRR engines into the > era/locale we want to model, I have the following question: I am a fan of > the "transfer units" whether they be Baldwin or Lima-Hamilton. When did > they arrive on the property and when did they last to? Also were any > stationed in the state of Pennsylvania? > > Thanks in advance. > > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Engines Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 06:05:41 -0400 Patrick Grace wrote: There was a RMC article some years ago about making a Baldwin transfer unit using 2 Stewart AS616 bodies. "A kitbashed Baldwin center-cab from Stewart AS616's," Railroad Model Craftsman, June 1995, page 69. (Courtesy http://index.mrmag.com/). Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Engines Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:59:22 -0400 How is the MRC June 1995 article with respect to the prototype? Does the article show how to accurately kitbash a center cab unit? Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Benjamin Frank Hom Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 6:06 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Cc: pgrace; ELDEN GATWOOD; Chany, Christopher Subject: Re: [PRR] Engines Patrick Grace wrote: There was a RMC article some years ago about making a Baldwin transfer unit using 2 Stewart AS616 bodies. "A kitbashed Baldwin center-cab from Stewart AS616's," Railroad Model Craftsman, June 1995, page 69. (Courtesy http://index.mrmag.com/). Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:14:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Engines On Wed, 21 Aug 2002, pgrace wrote: > Hi Chris & Elden, > > There was a RMC article some years ago about making a Baldwin transfer unit > using 2 Stewart AS616 bodies. and it was wrong. he spliced two bodies at the cab, end to end. you also need to remove a portion of the long hoods. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Engines Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:25:14 -0700 Hi again all; I tried a kit bash right after Stewart came out with the AS-16/AS-616 shell. There are (of course) major problems, although the basic materials are usable. You have to cut up the hood sides into pieces and reassemble them, something I did for one of my AS-616's, but it is difficult. I think Derrick is correct, you have to remove (at least) one set of hood doors, plus make up some stuff from scratch. If you are going to do a dynamic-eqpt unit it is even more cutting, plus you have to find a dynamic grid substitute (x4). You have to cut and recess the hoodtop grilles. You have to raise the entire hood assembly about a foot by splicing in styrene, then cut the walkways into pieces and do that "step" thing in the running boards. You have to create a new cab roof and bottom. And keep it straight! That is where I blew it. The assembly is rather easy to get crooked, but I know someone out there can do it. I am always surprised how few unusual diesels are being put together/kitbashed by modelers. Particularly the cool first gen stuff. I know there are lots of modelers out there more talented than me, so it is disappointing that someone is not doing some of the unique stuff. I have seen a Lima Transfer built almost from scratch. NEAT! For instance, someday I plan to do one of the late RS-12's that PRR had, some in the late 810x series. They had slightly longer frames, one more hood door, and a higher short hood than the standard RS-12 body, but were substantially the same otherwise. They look really odd, but kind of cool, and certainly different from anything out there. I like 8107 with the plow. 8110 in particular is really cool, with the steam generator and other neat details. I have also bashed an FM H-12-44 from the Walthers that turned out neat, and also an H-20-44 from an old Alco brass model (yes, it needed a LOT of work) which is one of my favorites. Has anyone bashed a PRR trainmaster? Yes, they are very different from the Athearn. I hope you all take this as a challenge! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr. [mailto:gregv@NetReach.Net] Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 6:59 AM To: Benjamin Frank Hom; prr-talk@dsop.com Cc: pgrace; ELDEN GATWOOD; Chany, Christopher Subject: RE: [PRR] Engines How is the MRC June 1995 article with respect to the prototype? Does the article show how to accurately kitbash a center cab unit? Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Benjamin Frank Hom Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 6:06 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Cc: pgrace; ELDEN GATWOOD; Chany, Christopher Subject: Re: [PRR] Engines Patrick Grace wrote: There was a RMC article some years ago about making a Baldwin transfer unit using 2 Stewart AS616 bodies. "A kitbashed Baldwin center-cab from Stewart AS616's," Railroad Model Craftsman, June 1995, page 69. (Courtesy http://index.mrmag.com/). Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 12:34:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] Engines On Wed, 21 Aug 2002, ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > which is one of my favorites. Has anyone bashed a PRR trainmaster? Yes, > they are very different from the Athearn. I hope you all take this as a > challenge! You have to dink with the fans, carve off some louvers, and something I'm forgetting. It didn't seem that big a deal to me. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Engines Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:55:46 -0400 Looking at Stewart Hobbies home page, the AS-616 goes for $115 with the Stewart drive. 2 would bring the price to $230. I seen brass transfer units for as low as $250 at shows. I am assuming that for now, brass is the easier way to go with respect to price. Reviewing Elden's take on the project, it seems much time and scratch building is required to make kitbash the unit. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ELDEN GATWOOD Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 12:25 PM To: Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr.; Benjamin Frank Hom; prr-talk@dsop.com Cc: pgrace; ELDEN GATWOOD; Chany, Christopher Subject: RE: [PRR] Engines Hi again all; I tried a kit bash right after Stewart came out with the AS-16/AS-616 shell. There are (of course) major problems, although the basic materials are usable. You have to cut up the hood sides into pieces and reassemble them, something I did for one of my AS-616's, but it is difficult. I think Derrick is correct, you have to remove (at least) one set of hood doors, plus make up some stuff from scratch. If you are going to do a dynamic-eqpt unit it is even more cutting, plus you have to find a dynamic grid substitute (x4). You have to cut and recess the hoodtop grilles. You have to raise the entire hood assembly about a foot by splicing in styrene, then cut the walkways into pieces and do that "step" thing in the running boards. You have to create a new cab roof and bottom. And keep it straight! That is where I blew it. The assembly is rather easy to get crooked, but I know someone out there can do it. I am always surprised how few unusual diesels are being put together/kitbashed by modelers. Particularly the cool first gen stuff. I know there are lots of modelers out there more talented than me, so it is disappointing that someone is not doing some of the unique stuff. I have seen a Lima Transfer built almost from scratch. NEAT! For instance, someday I plan to do one of the late RS-12's that PRR had, some in the late 810x series. They had slightly longer frames, one more hood door, and a higher short hood than the standard RS-12 body, but were substantially the same otherwise. They look really odd, but kind of cool, and certainly different from anything out there. I like 8107 with the plow. 8110 in particular is really cool, with the steam generator and other neat details. I have also bashed an FM H-12-44 from the Walthers that turned out neat, and also an H-20-44 from an old Alco brass model (yes, it needed a LOT of work) which is one of my favorites. Has anyone bashed a PRR trainmaster? Yes, they are very different from the Athearn. I hope you all take this as a challenge! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr. [mailto:gregv@NetReach.Net] Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 6:59 AM To: Benjamin Frank Hom; prr-talk@dsop.com Cc: pgrace; ELDEN GATWOOD; Chany, Christopher Subject: RE: [PRR] Engines How is the MRC June 1995 article with respect to the prototype? Does the article show how to accurately kitbash a center cab unit? Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Benjamin Frank Hom Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 6:06 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Cc: pgrace; ELDEN GATWOOD; Chany, Christopher Subject: Re: [PRR] Engines Patrick Grace wrote: There was a RMC article some years ago about making a Baldwin transfer unit using 2 Stewart AS616 bodies. "A kitbashed Baldwin center-cab from Stewart AS616's," Railroad Model Craftsman, June 1995, page 69. (Courtesy http://index.mrmag.com/). Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 14:06:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] Engines On Wed, 21 Aug 2002, Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr. wrote: > Looking at Stewart Hobbies home page, the AS-616 goes for $115 with the > Stewart drive. 2 would bring the price to $230. I seen brass transfer You only need 1 drive. You get an extra shell and an extra frame as parts for a few bucks. Sadly the trucks he has now aren't quite as accurate as the old Athearn trucks. > units for as low as $250 at shows. I am assuming that for now, brass is the > easier way to go with respect to price. Reviewing Elden's take on the > project, it seems much time and scratch building is required to make kitbash > the unit. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:33:04 -0400 From: "Richard Poole" Subject: [PRR] PASSENGER DIESEL COLOR GENTLEMEN, I am building a model, in 1.6 scale, of a PRR, FP-7a, number 9833. It can be seen on page #106 in DON BALL, Jr's book "THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD 1940s-1050s". I have paint in spray cans that is very close to an EXACT match for the paint on NEW, PRR B-60 baggage cars and P-70 passenger cars. My question is this . . . Were PRR's passenger diesels painted the same color as the B-60s and P-70s when both were NEW? Were the "E" passenger units painted the same color as the "FP", four axle, passenger equipt units such as the 9833 mentioned earlier? The picture in Mr. Ball's book looks orangish to me. Given the color holding qualities of the paint in the 1950s, this picture might only reflect the correct color in a much faded condition. The striping appears to be the same yellow color as the striping on the PRR, "Green", freight units and not the soft gold of the passenger equipment! THANKS in advance for any info on this subject. -- DICK POOLE -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:39:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] Cary PRR Marker Lights --part1_107.16b987a3.2a95465b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, I have these in my possession, but they are not what I thought they were! I thought they were lanterns for a caboose, but they aren't! The part number is ML-106, and is 2 w/bracket 4 plain. What are these?? I couldn't find them in my Walthers catalog....I need to decide if I want to keep these or get rid of them! thanks in advance, Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_107.16b987a3.2a95465b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List,

I have these in my possession, but they are not what I thought they were!  I thought they were lanterns for a caboose, but they aren't!  The part number is ML-106, and is 2 w/bracket 4 plain.

What are these??  I couldn't find them in my Walthers catalog....I need to decide if I want to keep these or get rid of them!

thanks in advance,
Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
PRRT&HS  #7136
List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo
--part1_107.16b987a3.2a95465b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] Engines Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:38:28 +0100 I accepted the problems inherent with the AS616 bodies to make my model, however at the time the Withers book on Baldwin road units hadn't come out and I couldn't find a drawing anywhere. There is a company in Lancashire who do brass etches as a scratch building aid, I am planning to contact them to find out what they charge for semi custom work... There is a review of a coach kit of theirs in the current issue of Continental Modeller. Patrick Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: "ELDEN GATWOOD" To: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." ; "Benjamin Frank Hom" ; Cc: "pgrace" ; "ELDEN GATWOOD" ; "Chany, Christopher" Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 5:25 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Engines > Hi again all; > I tried a kit bash right after Stewart came out with the AS-16/AS-616 shell. > There are (of course) major problems, although the basic materials are > usable. You have to cut up the hood sides into pieces and reassemble them, > something I did for one of my AS-616's, but it is difficult. I think > Derrick is correct, you have to remove (at least) one set of hood doors, > plus make up some stuff from scratch. If you are going to do a dynamic-eqpt > unit it is even more cutting, plus you have to find a dynamic grid > substitute (x4). You have to cut and recess the hoodtop grilles. You have > to raise the entire hood assembly about a foot by splicing in styrene, then > cut the walkways into pieces and do that "step" thing in the running boards. > You have to create a new cab roof and bottom. And keep it straight! That > is where I blew it. The assembly is rather easy to get crooked, but I know > someone out there can do it. > I am always surprised how few unusual diesels are being put > together/kitbashed by modelers. Particularly the cool first gen stuff. I > know there are lots of modelers out there more talented than me, so it is > disappointing that someone is not doing some of the unique stuff. I have > seen a Lima Transfer built almost from scratch. NEAT! For instance, > someday I plan to do one of the late RS-12's that PRR had, some in the late > 810x series. They had slightly longer frames, one more hood door, and a > higher short hood than the standard RS-12 body, but were substantially the > same otherwise. They look really odd, but kind of cool, and certainly > different from anything out there. I like 8107 with the plow. 8110 in > particular is really cool, with the steam generator and other neat details. > I have also bashed an FM H-12-44 from the Walthers that turned out neat, and > also an H-20-44 from an old Alco brass model (yes, it needed a LOT of work) > which is one of my favorites. Has anyone bashed a PRR trainmaster? Yes, > they are very different from the Athearn. I hope you all take this as a > challenge! > Elden > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr. [mailto:gregv@NetReach.Net] > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 6:59 AM > To: Benjamin Frank Hom; prr-talk@dsop.com > Cc: pgrace; ELDEN GATWOOD; Chany, Christopher > Subject: RE: [PRR] Engines > > > How is the MRC June 1995 article with respect to the prototype? Does the > article show how to accurately kitbash a center cab unit? > > Greg V > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Benjamin > Frank Hom > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 6:06 AM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Cc: pgrace; ELDEN GATWOOD; Chany, Christopher > Subject: Re: [PRR] Engines > > Patrick Grace wrote: > > There was a RMC article some years ago about making a Baldwin transfer unit > using 2 Stewart AS616 bodies. > > > "A kitbashed Baldwin center-cab from Stewart AS616's," Railroad Model > Craftsman, June 1995, page 69. > (Courtesy http://index.mrmag.com/). > > > Ben Hom > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:47:00 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PASSENGER DIESEL COLOR From: Jerry Britton On 8/21/02 3:33 PM, Richard Poole (Dpoole17@PAnetwork.com) wrote: > I am building a model, in 1.6 scale, of a PRR, FP-7a, number 9833. It can > be seen on page #106 in DON BALL, Jr's book "THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD > 1940s-1050s". > I have paint in spray cans that is very close to an EXACT match for the > paint on NEW, PRR B-60 baggage cars and P-70 passenger cars. My question is > this . . . Were PRR's passenger diesels painted the same color as the B-60s > and P-70s when both were NEW? Were the "E" passenger units painted the same > color as the "FP", four axle, passenger equipt units such as the 9833 > mentioned earlier? > The picture in Mr. Ball's book looks orangish to me. Given the color > holding qualities of the paint in the 1950s, this picture might only reflect > the correct color in a much faded condition. The striping appears to be the > same yellow color as the striping on the PRR, "Green", freight units and not > the soft gold of the passenger equipment! > THANKS in advance for any info on this subject. The FP7's were in Tuscan at some point. One of the books (probably Morning Sun's PRR Diesels series) has a photo of a Tuscan FP7. Yes, same color as the cars. The FP7's also appeared in DGLE. What I don't know is, were they delivered in DGLE, switched to Tuscan with other passenger engines in 1952, and perhaps back to DGLE when they returned to all-freight duty. The Don Ball book has poor color reproduction...and fades over time as well. As for the color of the striping, the passenger units used "Bronze Gold" originally, and then changed to "Dulux Gold" in the late 40's. The latter was a yellow look. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PASSENGER DIESEL COLOR Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:01:46 +0000 I think your color reference should be the society drift cards and not pictures in any book. The reasons are numerous: 1. The films of that era are notorious for changing colors with time and lighting often changed the colors captured immediately since they were so slow in film speed 2. Color reproduction in books can vary significantly due to dye lots, runs, plate wear, etc. 3. Color drift cards are kept out of light so UV light doesn't change the color and only used for brief periods as a color match before being kept protected 4. UV light definitely lightened all equipment and colors with time. 5. Standard color for all passenger cars was Tuscan red as far as I know (and some diesels but not many). Norm Bell > GENTLEMEN, > > I am building a model, in 1.6 scale, of a PRR, FP-7a, number 9833. It can > be seen on page #106 in DON BALL, Jr's book "THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD > 1940s-1050s". > I have paint in spray cans that is very close to an EXACT match for the > paint on NEW, PRR B-60 baggage cars and P-70 passenger cars. My question is > this . . . Were PRR's passenger diesels painted the same color as the B-60s and > P-70s when both were NEW? Were the "E" passenger units painted the same color > as the "FP", four axle, passenger equipt units such as the 9833 mentioned > earlier? > The picture in Mr. Ball's book looks orangish to me. Given the color > holding qualities of the paint in the 1950s, this picture might only reflect the > correct color in a much faded condition. The striping appears to be the same > yellow color as the striping on the PRR, "Green", freight units and not the soft > gold of the passenger equipment! > THANKS in advance for any info on this subject. > > -- > DICK POOLE > -- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 15:07:41 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] PASSENGER DIESEL COLOR Dick Poole asks: > I have paint in spray cans that is very close to an EXACT match for >the paint on NEW, PRR B-60 baggage cars and P-70 passenger cars. My >question is this . . . Were PRR's passenger diesels painted the same color >as the B-60s and P-70s when both were NEW? Were the "E" passenger units >painted the same color as the "FP", four axle, passenger equipt units such >as the 9833 mentioned earlier? > The picture in Mr. Ball's book looks orangish to me. Given the color >holding qualities of the paint in the 1950s, this picture might only >reflect the correct color in a much faded condition. The striping appears >to be the same yellow color as the striping on the PRR, "Green", freight >units and not the soft gold of the passenger equipment! Dick, Sorry for the heresy, and the flames this will spark, but there is NO WAY you can trust those beeeeeeyoutiful color books! Color reproduction suffers at several levels, the first being the film used...Kodachrome was/is biased toward the red/orange end of the spectrum (on purpose) while Ektachrome was/is biased towards the blue-green. Thus, the color of the items, even in original slides and prints was never an exact duplicate of the "true color". Follow this up with the fact that film isn't stable forever. Then, you have to trust that the printer got the mixes right too. Thus, 'bout the only way to know that you have the right color is a "color drift card" or a paint chip...after that its all guess work! The good news is that if anyone tells you that your car doesn't match the picture, you can smile and say "the picture is wrong"! Now if we could just get the NMRA judges to understand this little piece of science fact ! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PASSENGER DIESEL COLOR Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:11:50 -0400 List: S'pose I'm feelin' lazy and want to buy a can of spray paint to match the PRR tuscan used on passenger cars and Diesels. What would you recommend? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PASSENGER DIESEL COLOR > Dick Poole asks: > > I have paint in spray cans that is very close to an EXACT match for > >the paint on NEW, PRR B-60 baggage cars and P-70 passenger cars. My > >question is this . . . Were PRR's passenger diesels painted the same color > >as the B-60s and P-70s when both were NEW? Were the "E" passenger units > >painted the same color as the "FP", four axle, passenger equipt units such > >as the 9833 mentioned earlier? > > The picture in Mr. Ball's book looks orangish to me. Given the color > >holding qualities of the paint in the 1950s, this picture might only > >reflect the correct color in a much faded condition. The striping appears > >to be the same yellow color as the striping on the PRR, "Green", freight > >units and not the soft gold of the passenger equipment! > > Dick, > > Sorry for the heresy, and the flames this will spark, but there is NO WAY > you can trust those beeeeeeyoutiful color books! Color reproduction > suffers at several levels, the first being the film used...Kodachrome > was/is biased toward the red/orange end of the spectrum (on purpose) while > Ektachrome was/is biased towards the blue-green. Thus, the color of the > items, even in original slides and prints was never an exact duplicate of > the "true color". Follow this up with the fact that film isn't stable > forever. Then, you have to trust that the printer got the mixes right too. > Thus, 'bout the only way to know that you have the right color is a "color > drift card" or a paint chip...after that its all guess work! The good news > is that if anyone tells you that your car doesn't match the picture, you > can smile and say "the picture is wrong"! Now if we could just get the > NMRA judges to understand this little piece of science fact ! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Cary PRR Marker Lights Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:27:21 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C24938.01EB76C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mike- What you have are the marker lights for steam locomotives. The 2 with the bracket are on the sides of the smokebox. Because the smokebox is round, they had a bracket that extended form the smokebox giving the marker light a flat surface for mounting. The other four – 2 go on the pilot, the other 2 go on the tender. They are lights marking what type of train is being pulled. Other railroads used flags in front of the locomotive. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 3:39 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Cary PRR Marker Lights List, I have these in my possession, but they are not what I thought they were! I thought they were lanterns for a caboose, but they aren't! The part number is ML-106, and is 2 w/bracket 4 plain. What are these?? I couldn't find them in my Walthers catalog....I need to decide if I want to keep these or get rid of them! thanks in advance, Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C24938.01EB76C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mike-

 

Wh= at you have are the marker lights for steam locomotives.=A0 The 2 with the bracket are on the sides of the = smokebox.=A0 Because the smokebox is round, = they had a bracket that extended form the smokebox giving the marker light a flat = surface for mounting.=A0 The other four = =96 2 go on the pilot, the other 2 go on the tender.=A0 They are lights marking what type of train is being pulled.=A0 Other railroads used flags in = front of the locomotive.

 

Gr= eg V

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf = Of USMCnewdog25431@cs.com
Sent: Wednesday, August = 21, 2002 3:39 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Cary PRR = Marker Lights

 

List,

I have these in my possession, but they are not what I thought they = were!  I thought they were lanterns for a caboose, but they aren't! =  The part number is ML-106, and is 2 w/bracket 4 plain.

What are these??  I couldn't find them in my Walthers catalog....I = need to decide if I want to keep these or get rid of them!

thanks in advance,
Mike Schock =
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
PRRT&HS  #7136
List = Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo <= /p>

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C24938.01EB76C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] PASSENGER DIESEL COLOR Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:35:46 -0500 Within but a short time out of the shop, the colors of a newly painted prototype changed due to exposure to the sun and other environmental elements. Paints were much less resistant to these effects than paints produced now. Moreover, there were variations even with the same color standard between various shops on the same railroad. The biases associated with slide films are well known. But even here, note the slight differences when two particular cars purported to be painted the same color appear on the same slide. So I've yet to figure out what is and is not accurate with respect to color. -----Original Message----- From: Gregg Mahlkov [mailto:mahlkov@gtcom.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 4:12 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com; Bruce F. Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] PASSENGER DIESEL COLOR List: S'pose I'm feelin' lazy and want to buy a can of spray paint to match the PRR tuscan used on passenger cars and Diesels. What would you recommend? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PASSENGER DIESEL COLOR > Dick Poole asks: > > I have paint in spray cans that is very close to an EXACT match for > >the paint on NEW, PRR B-60 baggage cars and P-70 passenger cars. My > >question is this . . . Were PRR's passenger diesels painted the same color > >as the B-60s and P-70s when both were NEW? Were the "E" passenger units > >painted the same color as the "FP", four axle, passenger equipt units such > >as the 9833 mentioned earlier? > > The picture in Mr. Ball's book looks orangish to me. Given the color > >holding qualities of the paint in the 1950s, this picture might only > >reflect the correct color in a much faded condition. The striping appears > >to be the same yellow color as the striping on the PRR, "Green", freight > >units and not the soft gold of the passenger equipment! > > Dick, > > Sorry for the heresy, and the flames this will spark, but there is NO WAY > you can trust those beeeeeeyoutiful color books! Color reproduction > suffers at several levels, the first being the film used...Kodachrome > was/is biased toward the red/orange end of the spectrum (on purpose) while > Ektachrome was/is biased towards the blue-green. Thus, the color of the > items, even in original slides and prints was never an exact duplicate of > the "true color". Follow this up with the fact that film isn't stable > forever. Then, you have to trust that the printer got the mixes right too. > Thus, 'bout the only way to know that you have the right color is a "color > drift card" or a paint chip...after that its all guess work! The good news > is that if anyone tells you that your car doesn't match the picture, you > can smile and say "the picture is wrong"! Now if we could just get the > NMRA judges to understand this little piece of science fact ! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cary PRR Marker Lights Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 16:55:01 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_007C_01C24933.7D2F3240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike--Those are markers for steam engines before the modernized front = end was developed in the late 40's. The lights with brackets are = intended to be mounted on the smokebox; of the others, one pair on the = pilot and one on the tender. I vote you get rid of them and send them = to me! =20 Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_007C_01C24933.7D2F3240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike--Those are markers for steam = engines before=20 the modernized front end was developed in the late 40's.  The = lights with=20 brackets are intended to be mounted on the smokebox; of the others, one = pair on=20 the pilot and one on  the tender.  I vote you get rid of them = and send=20 them to me! 
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
 ------=_NextPart_000_007C_01C24933.7D2F3240-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] Scratchbuilding/kitbashing Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 18:41:05 -0400 > ELDEN GATWOOD wrote: > " I am always surprised how few unusual diesels are being put > together/kitbashed by modelers. Particularly the cool first gen stuff. I > know there are lots of modelers out there more talented than me, so it is > disappointing that someone is not doing some of the unique stuff. " > Elden, I'm not surprised at all. I'm old enough to remember articles in MR and RMC where fellows scratchbuilt Baldwin road switcher bodies out of sheet styrene and filler putty and put them on Hobbytown drives, or somehow bashed an Athearn GP7 into a creditable model of MLW RS18 (this was a years before the Atlas RS11). Some guy was building beautiful smoothside streamliner cars by laminating tissue paper and some type of dope over wooden forms to create the shell of a car. Really don't see those kinds of articles any more (though I admit that my local shop doesn't stock Model Railroading, RailModel Journal or Mainline Modeler, whose articles are usually more scratch/bash oriented). And really, why would you, with Proto 2000, Proto 1000, Stewart and others coming out with "less-common" prototypes such as VO1000's, C-liners, Erie-builts, Alco RSD's and BLW RS12's at a quality that pretty much beats scratchbuilding. Granted, it's unlikely that anyone is going to be marketing a Lima-Hamilton dual-engine transfer unit in plastic anytime soon... Many of today's modeling articles are about detailing tweaks applied to purchased equipment to model a specific prototype. Also, I think in our acquisitive, wealthy, time-pressed world the tendency is to buy what you need, rather than scratchbuilding or kitbashing. That's great for me (the original Mr. Thumbs), as it means more variety of products in the market (i.e.one mfr's several fairly-accurate variants of a plastic GP7 unit depending on road name, but you pay a price for those variants). Another testimony to this is the sudden surge of high-quality (P2K, Intermountain, Branchline) ready to run cars now on the market. This may be a factor of low wage rates in China, but also indicates there are modelers not wanting to spend their few hobby hours putting together car kits with many individual parts. The tendency these days (at least in my neck of the woods) seems to be to build as large a layout as possible, requiring mass quantities of equipment to operate on it (particularly if that layout is of a PRR mainline). Here again, the tendency would then be to buy quality off the shelf pre-built, or wait for P2K, Genesis or Stewart to develop it for you. Scratchbuilding is too time-consuming, often the results are less than satisfactory, and a month after you finish the project a better-detailed and more accurate version is imported in plastic from China. Doug "the old geezer" Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "David J. Vinci" Subject: Re: [PRR] Scratchbuilding/kitbashing Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 19:03:38 -0400 Hi Doug, Somehow the modeling community seems to have lost something... there is some scratchbuilding going on but it seems that most of it is in the area of structures. The example that leaps to mind is the crowd that models the steel industry. Sure, the Walthers mills are a good start but there's a lot more to build... ore transfer bridges, open hearth plants, bessmer converter plants, etc. But... when I want to scratchbuild something, car or structure, I have to order each thing I need as the local hobby shops don't carry much. Even detail parts that you'd think would be a common thing, like trash cans, barrels, mail boxes, marker lamp jewels, engine crew figures, etc. have to be ordered. I get told that "there's no market for these items", I have some trouble believeing that but there it is. Lots of times I get the feeling that locally at least, I'm all alone in detailing the layout. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:32:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Comments on NY Harbor Book --part1_105.1aa383c6.2a958b14_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bruce's question on this book brings up another point. On the back cover (dust jacket) there is a photo of a Long Island tug pushing two car floats up river. On the right float it appears to be a PRR X-32 round roof box. The roof looks black from this over head shot. Did the PRR paint them that way or is this just dirt and grime? The reason I question this is that the TA&G got some these cars second hand (maybe DT&I?) and the roofs were clearly black on those cars. Todd Horton --part1_105.1aa383c6.2a958b14_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bruce's question on this book brings up another point. On the back cover (dust jacket) there is a photo of a Long Island tug pushing two car floats up river. On the right float it appears to be a PRR X-32 round roof box. The roof looks black from this over head shot. Did the PRR paint them that way or is this just dirt and grime? The reason I question this is that the TA&G got some these cars second hand (maybe DT&I?) and the roofs were clearly black on those cars. Todd Horton --part1_105.1aa383c6.2a958b14_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 20:43:43 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PASSENGER DIESEL COLOR --part1_b8.2c55a026.2a958dbf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/21/2002 5:00:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > The FP7's were in Tuscan at some point. One of the books (probably Morning > Sun's PRR Diesels series) has a photo of a Tuscan FP7. > > Yes, same color as the cars. > > The FP7's also appeared in DGLE. What I don't know is, were they delivered > in DGLE, switched to Tuscan with other passenger engines in 1952, and > perhaps back to DGLE when they returned to all-freight duty. > > Jerry et al.: Only the first 4 FP7 units were painted in tuscan five stripe. All others were delivered in DGLE single stripe freight scheme. The 4 tuscan units are 9832, 9833, 9834, 9835. F7B units 9832B and 9834B were also delivered in tuscan 5 stripe. Rich Orr --part1_b8.2c55a026.2a958dbf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/21/2002 5:00:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:


The FP7's were in Tuscan at some point. One of the books (probably Morning
Sun's PRR Diesels series) has a photo of a Tuscan FP7.

Yes, same color as the cars.

The FP7's also appeared in DGLE. What I don't know is, were they delivered
in DGLE, switched to Tuscan with other passenger engines in 1952, and
perhaps back to DGLE when they returned to all-freight duty.



Jerry et al.:

Only the first 4 FP7 units were painted in tuscan five stripe.  All others were delivered in DGLE single stripe freight scheme.  The 4 tuscan units are 9832, 9833, 9834, 9835.  F7B units 9832B and 9834B were also delivered in tuscan 5 stripe.

Rich Orr --part1_b8.2c55a026.2a958dbf_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "HENRY SHAEFER" Subject: Re: [PRR] Scratchbuilding/kitbashing Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 21:12:27 -0400 ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C24957.739A7540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable You are not alone I kitbash and superdetail locomotives and rolling stock= . Everyone looks at me like I'm crazy when I ask for stuff like can moto= rs and heaheadlight castings. Hank ----- Original Message ----- From: David J. Vinci Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 8:20 PM To: Doug Drew; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: Re: [PRR] Scratchbuilding/kitbashing Hi Doug, Somehow the modeling community seems to have lost something... there is s= ome scratchbuilding going on but it seems that most of it is in the area of structures. The example that leaps to mind is the crowd that models the steel industry. Sure, the Walthers mills are a good start but there's a = lot more to build... ore transfer bridges, open hearth plants, bessmer conver= ter plants, etc. But... when I want to scratchbuild something, car or structu= re, I have to order each thing I need as the local hobby shops don't carry mu= ch. Even detail parts that you'd think would be a common thing, like trash ca= ns, barrels, mail boxes, marker lamp jewels, engine crew figures, etc. have t= o be ordered. I get told that "there's no market for these items", I have some trouble believeing that but there it is. Lots of times I get the feeling that locally at least, I'm all alone in detailing the layout. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C24957.739A7540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

You are not alon= e I kitbash and superdetail locomotives and rolling stock.  Everyone= looks at me like I'm crazy when I ask for stuff like can motors and heah= eadlight castings.

 

Hank

 
&= nbsp;
----- Original Message -----
From: Dav= id J. Vinci
Sent: Wednesday,= August 21, 2002 8:20 PM
To:= Doug Drew; 'PRR-Talk'
Subject:<= /B> Re: [PRR] Scratchbuilding/kitbashing
 
Hi Doug,<= BR>Somehow the modeling community seems to have lost something... there i= s some
scratchbuilding going on but it seems that most of it is in the= area of
structures.  The example that leaps to mind is the crowd= that models the
steel industry.  Sure, the Walthers mills are a = good start but there's a lot
more to build... ore transfer bridges, op= en hearth plants, bessmer converter
plants, etc. But... when I want to= scratchbuild something, car or structure,
I have to order each thing = I need as the local hobby shops don't carry much.
Even detail parts th= at you'd think would be a common thing, like trash cans,
barrels, mail= boxes, marker lamp jewels, engine crew figures, etc. have to
be order= ed.  I get told that "there's no market for these items", I have
= some trouble believeing that but there it is.  Lots of times I get t= he
feeling that locally at least, I'm all alone in detailing the layou= t.
Dave



-----------------------------------------------= ------------------------
For assistance with this list, please visit h= ttp://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C24957.739A7540-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:23:04 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Engines In a message dated 8/21/02 1:04:05 PM Central Daylight Time, gregv@NetReach.Net writes: << I seen brass transfer units for as low as $250 at shows. >> An LS25 just went last week for a little under $620 or so on eBay, but your are correct, if you are lucky you can get deals at swap meets. And that LS25 model is pretty rudimentary as far as brass is concerned. It is thinly coined, but I think only 500 or so were made. I have a quasi-LS25 from Hobbytown---looks like a couple Athearn switcher hoods and a GE cab from somewhere. Gives the feel, though not the accuracy of the prototype. Good mechanism though. Sure is a conversation stopper out here in cheeseland. Bob Zoeller Bayside, Wisconsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:32:48 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PASSENGER DIESEL COLOR In a message dated 8/21/02 4:19:54 PM Central Daylight Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: << S'pose I'm feelin' lazy and want to buy a can of spray paint to match the PRR tuscan used on passenger cars and Diesels. What would you recommend? >> Tuscan isn't bad in most of the paint lines, but I just got lazy and bought a can of Scalecoat II spray in tuscan. Look great to me and Scalecoat has a reputation, well deserved IMNSHO, for accuracy to PRR and some other rail colors. However, a can of their freight car color is closer to the mid-50's and later color, as used on Bowser cars. Too dark and maroonish for pre-1954. Again, IMNSHO. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Scratchbuilding/kitbashing Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:25:40 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C24961.AE5D4A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friends: "I saw the enemy and they are us" (pogo) We are part of the problem of a = lack of scratchbuilders. There is so much ready to roll stuff = available, that a beginner's skills are always compared to the well = tooled plastic or brass models. The competition of the rtr models is = intimidating to neophytes because the press and the rivet counters = immediately jump all over the poor guy (or gal) for missing this or = that. When I started scratchbuilding, commercial steam loco generators = were just a lump of metal, marker lights were crude and a beginners = skills were on par with commercial stuff. I never felt intimidated by = rtr stuff and I learned all the techniques necessary for credible = scratchbuilding. =20 During the late 1980s, I backed off the superdetails and went backwards = in detail level to an earlier period; only putting in the details you = can see and for moving trains, that's not much! Modelbuilding became a = lot more fun. I remember using nail heads to simulate MU connector = plugs, filed down rail spikes to make smoke box front details and finish = nails for passenger steam traps. No one does this kind of detail = anymore, they insist on lost wax brass, super detail. From arms length, = you can't really tell the difference.=20 If we, as an organization, wish to revise scratchbuilding in the hobby, = we are going to have to restrain the criticism given to novices for = their first couple of attempts. It might be a good idea to sponsor a = "scratchbuilt" category for judging at our annual conference. Maybe go = a little further, and divide that category into novice, amature, = accomplished and professional. Lew =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: HENRY SHAEFER=20 To: David J. Vinci ; Doug Drew ; 'PRR-Talk'=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 9:12 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Scratchbuilding/kitbashing You are not alone I kitbash and superdetail locomotives and rolling = stock. Everyone looks at me like I'm crazy when I ask for stuff like = can motors and heaheadlight castings. Hank ----- Original Message ----- From: David J. Vinci Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 8:20 PM To: Doug Drew; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: Re: [PRR] Scratchbuilding/kitbashing Hi Doug, Somehow the modeling community seems to have lost something... there = is some scratchbuilding going on but it seems that most of it is in the area = of structures. The example that leaps to mind is the crowd that models = the steel industry. Sure, the Walthers mills are a good start but = there's a lot more to build... ore transfer bridges, open hearth plants, bessmer = converter plants, etc. But... when I want to scratchbuild something, car or = structure, I have to order each thing I need as the local hobby shops don't = carry much. Even detail parts that you'd think would be a common thing, like = trash cans, barrels, mail boxes, marker lamp jewels, engine crew figures, etc. = have to be ordered. I get told that "there's no market for these items", I = have some trouble believeing that but there it is. Lots of times I get = the feeling that locally at least, I'm all alone in detailing the = layout. Dave = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C24961.AE5D4A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Friends:
 
"I saw the enemy and they are us" (pogo) We are = part of=20 the problem of a lack of scratchbuilders.  There is so much ready = to roll=20 stuff available, that a beginner's skills are always compared to the = well tooled=20 plastic or brass models.  The competition of the rtr models is = intimidating to neophytes because the press and the rivet counters = immediately=20 jump all over the poor guy (or gal) for missing this or that.  When = I=20 started scratchbuilding, commercial steam loco generators were just a = lump of=20 metal, marker lights were crude and a beginners skills were on par with=20 commercial stuff.  I never felt intimidated by rtr stuff and I = learned all=20 the techniques necessary for credible scratchbuilding.  =
 
During the late 1980s, I backed off the = superdetails and=20 went backwards in detail level to an earlier period; only putting in the = details=20 you can see and for moving trains, that's not much!  Modelbuilding = became a=20 lot more fun.  I remember using nail heads to simulate MU connector = plugs,=20 filed down rail spikes to make smoke box front details and finish nails = for=20 passenger steam traps.  No one does this kind of detail anymore, = they=20 insist on lost wax brass, super detail.  From arms length, you = can't really=20 tell the difference. 
 
If we, as an organization, wish to revise scratchbuilding in the hobby, we are going = to have to=20 restrain the criticism given to novices for their first couple of=20 attempts.  It might be a good idea to sponsor a "scratchbuilt"=20 category for judging at our annual conference.  Maybe go a = little=20 further, and divide that category into novice, amature,=20 accomplished and professional.
 
Lew 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 HENRY = SHAEFER=20
To: David J. Vinci ; Doug=20 Drew ; 'PRR-Talk'
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, = 2002 9:12=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR]=20 Scratchbuilding/kitbashing

You are not alone I kitbash and superdetail locomotives and rolling = stock.  Everyone looks at me like I'm crazy when I ask for stuff = like can=20 motors and heaheadlight castings.

 

Hank

 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 David J. Vinci
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, = 2002 8:20=20 PM
To: Doug Drew; = 'PRR-Talk'
Subject: Re: [PRR]=20 Scratchbuilding/kitbashing
 
Hi Doug,
Somehow the modeling community seems to = have=20 lost something... there is some
scratchbuilding going on but it = seems=20 that most of it is in the area of
structures.  The example = that=20 leaps to mind is the crowd that models the
steel industry.  = Sure,=20 the Walthers mills are a good start but there's a lot
more to = build...=20 ore transfer bridges, open hearth plants, bessmer = converter
plants, etc.=20 But... when I want to scratchbuild something, car or structure,
I = have to=20 order each thing I need as the local hobby shops don't carry = much.
Even=20 detail parts that you'd think would be a common thing, like trash=20 cans,
barrels, mail boxes, marker lamp jewels, engine crew = figures, etc.=20 have to
be ordered.  I get told that "there's no market for = these=20 items", I have
some trouble believeing that but there it = is.  Lots=20 of times I get the
feeling that locally at least, I'm all alone = in=20 detailing the=20 = layout.
Dave



------------------------------------------= -----------------------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit=20 http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_000_0033_01C24961.AE5D4A40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 00:22:25 EDT Subject: [PRR] OT-Visiting Wisconsin Will the list member who asked me about touring Wisconsin please resend his message offlist. I inadvertantly deleted it before I could reply. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 07:23:40 -0400 Subject: [PRR] RE: Scratchbuilding I have read the posts recently and I agree with the fact that the quality of today's R-T-R equipment makes it tough for someone that has 10 thumbs to get close. In the 1980's I wasn't able to afford brass but I wanted a PRR J1 so bad I could taste it. I was working in a hobby shop in Allentown and in our unclaimed repair area was a box of "parts" covered in about 1/2" of dust. I asked the owner how much he wanted for them and he said "give me $10.00 snd it's yours". The parts included a tarnished, scratch-built brass boiler of a PRR J1a, a piece of notched, brass bar-stock, a set of drivers, the complete set of side-rods including the Baker valve gear, lead, and trailing trucks and a Bowser tender that had the rivet detail filed off. There was also a container of screws and a DC71 motor. Up to this point, the only PRR steam I had were three Bowser locos. A K4, an L1, and a I1. Since I had assembled them and they ran well, I took my junk box home and started working on the loco. After a couple of nights I had the engine assembled. I hooked up the leads to the frame of the loco and tender and the drivers moved as smooth as silk. I painted the loco, decaled it, and it ran on my layout for a long time until I tore the layout down and moved. I still have the engine but it has been "retired" since I purchased a Gem J1a a while back. The loco was crude, ungainly, and the tender was way wrong but it was "MY" J1 and it held the rails like it was weded to them. A few years ago a friend of mine had a used magazine resale business and he would often find old model railroading magazines with interesting articles for me. In a May 1951 issue of RMC or MR (I can't remember which) was an article on scratch-building a PRR J1. To my surprise, it was the exact locomotive I had in my posession. The magazine is in my archives somewhere. I just wanted to share this with the group since most of the articles in today's model press would never have run this article since the results were so crude. We have truly lost our acceptance of that type of model because of the higher standards of today's models. I for one would be reluctant to submit an article like this to a magazine for fear they would cancel my subscription. . Regards, Nick Kulp http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:28:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Scratchbuilding List, It would be interesting to see these scratch built models that have been shared with the group. Please, if possible, post some pics for us to see. I have never really did any scratch building in HO. I did however build old craftsman kits and modified them to a better result. Not sure if I even have any of those items anymore. More current items cause many people to upgrade. The only real scratch built stuff I did and still have are the 4 G 1:29th Scale PRR Cabins (N5b N6b N8 and N5c) that have been seen here and other places.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: Scratchbuilding Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 10:23:27 -0400 At the Gettysburg show, I was told that I am the only person he knows who superdetail's locomotives anymore. Last year, I did a K4. I researched the project extensively. I searched for Model Railroader issues November 1949 to February 1950 that had a five part article on scratch building a K4 by M. D. Thornburgh. When I say scratch, I mean from scratch. To build a locomotive today as they have done in early years, we perceive it as impossible. I don't see why it is such a hassle to add detail parts to an already formed locomotive. It is not like we're rolling the boiler, rigging the brakes, turning the wheels. Scratch building locomotives is definitely a lost art. I strongly feel it is a reflection of our society. Years ago, the metal industry was big. Many modelers worked in and around industry where they noticed how metals were forged, bent, etc. Seeing the process and how machines did it, they got hold of smaller scale machines to do the work for modeling. Evan though there are more modelers now than years ago, we are moving out of the industrial age and migrating toward other means of income generating work, including computers. This all comes back to play about RTR locomotives, kits, and paying the high price for brass to get the accurate model you want. Those working don't want to be bothered with assembling kits or superdetailing. The later will remain for those who strive for near perfect prototype accuracy. Greg V ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Scratchbuilding/kitbashing Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 10:31:35 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C249C7.17528A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can motor? What is that, a motor in a can? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of HENRY SHAEFER Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 9:12 PM To: David J. Vinci; Doug Drew; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: Re: [PRR] Scratchbuilding/kitbashing You are not alone I kitbash and superdetail locomotives and rolling stock. Everyone looks at me like I'm crazy when I ask for stuff like can motors and heaheadlight castings. Hank ----- Original Message ----- From: David J. Vinci Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 8:20 PM To: Doug Drew; 'PRR-Talk' Subject: Re: [PRR] Scratchbuilding/kitbashing Hi Doug, Somehow the modeling community seems to have lost something... there is some scratchbuilding going on but it seems that most of it is in the area of structures. The example that leaps to mind is the crowd that models the steel industry. Sure, the Walthers mills are a good start but there's a lot more to build... ore transfer bridges, open hearth plants, bessmer converter plants, etc. But... when I want to scratchbuild something, car or structure, I have to order each thing I need as the local hobby shops don't carry much. Even detail parts that you'd think would be a common thing, like trash cans, barrels, mail boxes, marker lamp jewels, engine crew figures, etc. have to be ordered. I get told that "there's no market for these items", I have some trouble believeing that but there it is. Lots of times I get the feeling that locally at least, I'm all alone in detailing the layout. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C249C7.17528A00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ca= n motor?  What is that, a motor in a = can?

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf = Of HENRY SHAEFER
Sent: Wednesday, August = 21, 2002 9:12 PM
To: David J. Vinci; Doug = Drew; 'PRR-Talk'
Subject: Re: [PRR] Scratchbuilding/kitbashing

 

You are not = alone I kitbash and superdetail locomotives and rolling stock.  Everyone = looks at me like I'm crazy when I ask for stuff like can motors and heaheadlight castings.

 <= /font>

Hank

 <= /font>

 <= /font>

----- Original Message -----

From: David J. = Vinci

Sent: Wednesday, = August 21, 2002 8:20 PM

To: Doug Drew; = 'PRR-Talk'

Subject: Re: [PRR] Scratchbuilding/kitbashing

 <= /font>

Hi Doug,
Somehow the modeling community seems to have lost something... there is = some
scratchbuilding going on but it seems that most of it is in the area = of
structures.  The example that leaps to mind is the crowd that = models the
steel industry.  Sure, the Walthers mills are a good start but = there's a lot
more to build... ore transfer bridges, open hearth plants, bessmer = converter
plants, etc. But... when I want to scratchbuild something, car or = structure,
I have to order each thing I need as the local hobby shops don't carry = much.
Even detail parts that you'd think would be a common thing, like trash = cans,
barrels, mail boxes, marker lamp jewels, engine crew figures, etc. have = to
be ordered.  I get told that "there's no market for these items", I have
some trouble believeing that but there it is.  Lots of times I get = the
feeling that locally at least, I'm all alone in detailing the = layout.
Dave



----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit = http://lists.dsop.com.

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C249C7.17528A00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Scratch building Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 14:56:15 +0000 I'm not so sure that scratch building was ever a choice but a necessity. Which of us builds our own TV or stereo or computer? You could do that with Heathkits at one time. Not any more. I remember when the hobby consisted of switchers and tank engines labeled for PRR and ATSF all of which needed to be built by the owner and hand laid track was the only choice. Irv Athearn was a God send to the hobby with his detail and pricing. The same for brass track with fiber ties. The PRR wasn't a backwoods short line using hand me down equipment and all trains run as extras consisting of two cars. We model what was the largest railroad of it's day. I will eventually have a Philly - Trenton RR that will have trains running through just as fast as the signals allow. I could never do that if I scratch built everything. I think the "good enough" philosophy is the best one. I marvel at people who can figure out how to make realistic rolling stock and details. I am extremely grateful for all the quality plastic at reasonable prices more though. You would be surprised what people don't see when the trains are rolling. Frank Ellison removed the lead truck on one of crack passenger engines on the Delta Lines because it kept derailing. It took his operators over two years to realize it. So the collison posts on my Bowser N5C's arent perfect. They are the best out there and 99.99% of the people watching don't give a rat's rear end. They just say, "Oh I remember those cars". When the railroad is done ( if I live long enough ) I can then start to improve everything if I choose to. Yes I have brass and yes I try my best to make it as authnetic as possible ( how many of you have applied the water and fuel oil filler or the bottom stripe decals to your gg1"S?) but why reinvent the wheel? If you get great pleasure taking two years to scratch an F7 more power to you. Most of us want the pleasure of running trains not knowing how to duplicate an engine frame or bracing. I often toy with the idea of a live steamer and would build a K4 or M1. Then I realize how much more I can accomplish in HO in the five or six years it would take and shelve the idea. There is room for all of us. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 07:52:36 -0700 Subject: RE: [PRR] Scratchbuilding/kitbashing Hi Gregory, Gregory asked: > Can motor? What is that, a motor in a can? Well, basically, yes it is. It is a motor design. A can motor has magnets totally surrounding the armature - around all 360 degrees of it. This is as opposed to an "open-frame" motor, which has magnets only over a portion of the rotation, typically near the "top" and "bottom", altho it does not have to be that way, could be on the sides if you put the motor on it's side, right? Point is, in an open-frame design there are sections of the armature not covered by magnets. - Claus > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of HENRY SHAEFER > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 9:12 PM > To: David J. Vinci; Doug Drew; 'PRR-Talk' > Subject: Re: [PRR] Scratchbuilding/kitbashing > > You are not alone I kitbash and superdetail locomotives and rolling stock. > Everyone looks at me like I'm crazy when I ask for stuff like can motors and > heaheadlight castings. > > Hank > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David J. Vinci > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 8:20 PM > To: Doug Drew; 'PRR-Talk' > Subject: Re: [PRR] Scratchbuilding/kitbashing > > Hi Doug, > Somehow the modeling community seems to have lost something... there is some > scratchbuilding going on but it seems that most of it is in the area of > structures. The example that leaps to mind is the crowd that models the > steel industry. Sure, the Walthers mills are a good start but there's a lot > more to build... ore transfer bridges, open hearth plants, bessmer converter > plants, etc. But... when I want to scratchbuild something, car or structure, > I have to order each thing I need as the local hobby shops don't carry much. > Even detail parts that you'd think would be a common thing, like trash cans, > barrels, mail boxes, marker lamp jewels, engine crew figures, etc. have to > be ordered. I get told that "there's no market for these items", I have > some trouble believeing that but there it is. Lots of times I get the > feeling that locally at least, I'm all alone in detailing the layout. > Dave > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:08:20 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: Scratchbuilding Reminds me of an old bit of doggerel, must've come from RMC, Breathes there a man with soul so dead, Who never to his guests has said, "These cars came from my dealer's shelf; But look, this one, I built myself!" Somebody will no doubt remind us of the author of this; but I recall the next line was something like, "Imagine, (long time author and scratchbuilder) Bill Schopp never wrote poetry like this!" John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] Scratchbuilding/kitbashing Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 12:10:19 -0700 Guys, Both I and the guy that won first place at the convention entered scratchbuilt cars (No, I'm sorry, I used commercial ends with some mods and Bowser Crown trucks so it really wasn't scratchbuilt), and we took 1st and 2nd. My car was not as good as the commercially available stuff (no way, no how), but I guess I felt that if you are going to enter a contest, you should enter stuff you did yourself. I just weather things well. I rarely see plastic (kit or otherwise) freight cars entered, and most of the diesels and structures are at least heavily kitbashed. I think that most folks entering would be a little embarassed to enter a car that they had not performed major work on. I now think that is a mistake. I sure would like to see more cars at the meet, regardless of heritage. If a car looks great, we should go for it. I have talked to too many folks that are intimidated to enter in contests, which is why there was a move at this year's convention to just bring anything and only those that wanted to compete did. Some really impressive stuff showed up. No, I do not scratch because I like to, but to get a car that no one has that I need for good representation. I am too klutzy for me to be a good scratchbuilder. However, there are a lot of them out there. I would also be the last person to criticize anyone for their approach, or how well they did on it. The stuff on my layout is a combo of RTR, kits, resin, brass and mostly scratch, but only because I am trying to build a representative fleet. I am sure most of you are the same. I sure hope all of us that will attend future meets, or share photos with the group at large, will show anything that they feel good about. And, please consider if you are attending next year's meet to bring some of your stuff. This year's turnout was quite a bit better than last, and I, for one, really want to see your stuff next year! Have a good one, Elden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] COLOR Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 12:23:40 -0700 Hi all; I keep forgetting to bring this up, basically because you are all correct. There is no ONE color mix that is correct, even for the same time period. But did you know the real reason "why"? Well, the PRR had at least five or six different types of paint that were applied to freight cars, cabins, and diesels that were all referred to as "freight car color". You know how some folks think that gons or covered hoppers were a different color from boxes? Or from hoppers? Well, you were right! PRR had freight car colors that had different properties. They used different types of paint for different purposes. The covered hoppers got "alkali resistant" FCC paint, the boxes did not. So, do what you want with paint. Anyone who criticizes you for color is off base. Elden -------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: [PRR] Scratchbuilding/kitbashing Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:27:13 -0400 Excellent points, Lew. Your resourcefulness in creating your detail parts is another trait that modelers of today seem to lack -- if it's not available from Details West or Cal-Scale, forget it. Foggy memory says that there was an article in MR a few years back, by a fellow who made all manner of diesel detail parts from things one could easily find around the house. I think this gets back to one's focus in the hobby -- you apparently are a train operator, and so it's less important that a car buried in a yard have its full complement of brake gear underneath, as it is unlikely to be seen from the usual vantage point. Personally, I'm staying away from those gorgeous P2K cars, as their level of detailing will make all my Athearn/ Roundhouse/ Accurail cars 'obsolete'. I'm trying to maintain an equivalent level of detail (or lack of it) throughout the car fleet -- weathering (how many modelers even weather their cars?), proper weighting and good wheels, yes; individual grabs and ladders, see-through roofwalks, etc., no. I did recently add wire brake rigging to an Athearn reefer I was shaking together, it was indeed fun and made construction of that car a little more challenging and therefore rewarding. Of course, Mr. Thumbs broke a drill in the process... however, I can't see spending the time involved on that one car to convert my entire fleet. There are trains to run! So Lew, those steam traps: bend a finishing nail at a couple of different angles, drill a hole in the car floor and install? Will be a problem for me, I have to use talgo trucks on my passenger cars, my 24" min. radius hidden-track curvature won't allow body mounts, even with free-swinging couplers. Weighting to NMRA standards and metal RP25 wheels seems to solve any talgo-induced derailment antics. > ---------- > From: Lewis J. Matt PhD > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 10:25 PM > To: HENRY SHAEFER; David J. Vinci; Doug Drew; 'PRR-Talk' > Subject: Re: [PRR] Scratchbuilding/kitbashing > > Friends: > > "I saw the enemy and they are us" (pogo) We are part of the problem of a > lack of scratchbuilders. There is so much ready to roll stuff available, > that a beginner's skills are always compared to the well tooled plastic or > brass models. The competition of the rtr models is intimidating to > neophytes because the press and the rivet counters immediately jump all > over the poor guy (or gal) for missing this or that. When I started > scratchbuilding, commercial steam loco generators were just a lump of > metal, marker lights were crude and a beginners skills were on par with > commercial stuff. I never felt intimidated by rtr stuff and I learned all > the techniques necessary for credible scratchbuilding. > > During the late 1980s, I backed off the superdetails and went backwards in > detail level to an earlier period; only putting in the details you can see > and for moving trains, that's not much! Modelbuilding became a lot more > fun. I remember using nail heads to simulate MU connector plugs, filed > down rail spikes to make smoke box front details and finish nails for > passenger steam traps. No one does this kind of detail anymore, they > insist on lost wax brass, super detail. From arms length, you can't > really tell the difference. > > If we, as an organization, wish to revise scratchbuilding in the hobby, we > are going to have to restrain the criticism given to novices for their > first couple of attempts. It might be a good idea to sponsor a > "scratchbuilt" category for judging at our annual conference. Maybe go a > little further, and divide that category into novice, amature, > accomplished and professional. > > Lew > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: HENRY SHAEFER > To: David J. Vinci ; Doug Drew ; 'PRR-Talk' > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 9:12 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Scratchbuilding/kitbashing > > > You are not alone I kitbash and superdetail locomotives and rolling > stock. Everyone looks at me like I'm crazy when I ask for stuff like can > motors and heaheadlight castings. > > > > Hank > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: David J. Vinci > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 8:20 PM > To: Doug Drew; 'PRR-Talk' > Subject: Re: [PRR] Scratchbuilding/kitbashing > > Hi Doug, > Somehow the modeling community seems to have lost > something... there is some > scratchbuilding going on but it seems that most of it is in > the area of > structures. The example that leaps to mind is the crowd > that models the > steel industry. Sure, the Walthers mills are a good start > but there's a lot > more to build... ore transfer bridges, open hearth plants, > bessmer converter > plants, etc. But... when I want to scratchbuild something, > car or structure, > I have to order each thing I need as the local hobby shops > don't carry much. > Even detail parts that you'd think would be a common thing, > like trash cans, > barrels, mail boxes, marker lamp jewels, engine crew > figures, etc. have to > be ordered. I get told that "there's no market for these > items", I have > some trouble believeing that but there it is. Lots of times > I get the > feeling that locally at least, I'm all alone in detailing > the layout. > Dave > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] X32 roof color Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 12:37:42 -0700 Hi again; Todd, Many PRR cars had asphaltum painted on the roof during shopping, particularly these early guys, as they leaked a lot due to their construction. Shop folks slopped on the asphaltum on cars that had been reported with roof leaks. You will notice many photos of X31, X32, X33 with a much darker color running on the roof running right down to (and often including) the top rivet strip/structural juncture between roof and side. If they were shopping for heavy repair, the asphaltum would have been painted over with FC color, but that paint did not stay on over asphaltum for long and you end up with the cars having a brown/black-looking roof. I usually simulate it by overpainting my "not recently shopped" cars with a grungy burnt umber/black mix, then weathering over that. It looks pretty good. Elden -----Original Message----- From: CENTGA@aol.com [mailto:CENTGA@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 5:32 PM To: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu; prr-talk@dsop.com; STMFC@egroups.com; wdstephens@prodigy.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Comments on NY Harbor Book Bruce's question on this book brings up another point. On the back cover (dust jacket) there is a photo of a Long Island tug pushing two car floats up river. On the right float it appears to be a PRR X-32 round roof box. The roof looks black from this over head shot. Did the PRR paint them that way or is this just dirt and grime? The reason I question this is that the TA&G got some these cars second hand (maybe DT&I?) and the roofs were clearly black on those cars. Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] PASSENGER DIESEL COLOR Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 11:45:03 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C249D1.5A8EDDA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Listers: Just for the record of color from slides/film/pictures. As mentioned by Marvin: "> The biases associated with slide films are well known. But even = here, note > the slight differences when two particular = cars purported to be painted the > same color appear on the same slide. So I've yet to figure out what is = and > is not accurate with respect to color." And as mentioned by Bruce: "...Kodachrome > was/is biased toward the red/orange end of = the spectrum (on purpose) while > Ektachrome was/is biased = towards the blue-green. Thus, the color of the > items, even in = original slides and prints was never an exact duplicate of = > the "true color". Follow this up with the fact that film = isn't stable > forever." I have some slides from the 1960's that were taken side by side with = Kodachrome 64, Kodachrome 12 (or whatever slooooow film), Ektachrome 64 = (my favorite), some Ektachrome 160, Agfa ?, Ansco ?, and many more. The Ansco have faded and are no longer usefull for color. All the rest = are still reasonably good. All are stored at room temperature in metal = slide boxes as "individual" slides (not bunched together). As Bruce mentioned, the Kodachrome are reddish, the Ektachrome are = bluish. But, using common sense, and comparing as many slides as = possible side by side of reasonably close pictures of reasonably close = prototype cars. (It's impossible to have different pictures/slides of = the same car with different films. Not all were taken at the same = time.) But I do have slides taken on the same day, same area, mostly = same cars by different people using different cameras, films, etc. But = looking at these slides comparing side by side - you can tell the = differences and can make an educated decision of which color you wish to = use on your model. The old Vanishing Vista postcards are among the best = available, and comparing them with the Ektachrome you can get a = relatively accurate color. IMHO! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist! PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! ------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C249D1.5A8EDDA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Listers:
 
Just for the record of color = from=20 slides/film/pictures.
 
As mentioned by = Marvin:
 
"> The biases=20 associated with slide films are well known.  But even here,=20 note           &nb= sp; =20 > the slight differences when two particular cars purported to be = painted=20 the
> same color appear on the same slide. So I've yet to figure = out what=20 is=20 and           &nbs= p;     =20 > is not accurate with respect to color."
And as mentioned by=20 Bruce:
 
"...Kodachrome        &n= bsp;  =20 > was/is biased toward the red/orange end of the spectrum (on = purpose)=20 while            = >=20 Ektachrome was/is biased towards the blue-green.  Thus, the color = of=20 the        > items, even in = original=20 slides and prints was never an exact duplicate of   =20             =    =20     > the "true color".  Follow this up with the = fact=20 that film isn't=20 stable            = >=20 forever."
 
I have some slides from = the 1960's=20 that were taken side by side with Kodachrome 64, Kodachrome 12 (or = whatever=20 slooooow film), Ektachrome 64 (my favorite), some Ektachrome 160, Agfa = ?, Ansco=20 ?, and many more.
 
The Ansco have faded and are no = longer usefull=20 for color.  All the rest are still reasonably good.  All = are=20 stored at room temperature in metal slide boxes as "individual" slides = (not=20 bunched together).
 
As Bruce mentioned, the Kodachrome = are reddish,=20 the Ektachrome are bluish.  But, using common sense, and comparing = as many=20 slides as possible side by side of reasonably close pictures of = reasonably close=20 prototype cars.  (It's impossible to have different pictures/slides = of the=20 same car with different films.  Not all were taken at the same = time.) =20 But I do have slides taken on the same day, same area, mostly same cars = by=20 different people using different cameras, films, etc.  But looking = at these=20 slides comparing side by side - you can tell the differences and can = make an=20 educated decision of which color you wish to use on your model.  = The old=20 Vanishing Vista postcards are among the best available, and comparing = them with=20 the Ektachrome you can get a relatively accurate color.  = IMHO!
 
Morgan=20 Bilbo
Ferroequinologist!
PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy = Nut!
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_001C_01C249D1.5A8EDDA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 16:50:15 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] COLOR In a message dated Thu, 22 Aug 2002 2:23:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com writes: > > > Hi all; I keep forgetting to bring this up, basically because you are all > correct. There is no ONE color mix that is correct, even for the same time > period. But did you know the real reason "why"? > Well, the PRR had at least five or six different types of paint that were > applied to freight cars, cabins, and diesels that were all referred to as > "freight car color". You know how some folks think that gons or covered > hoppers were a different color from boxes? Or from hoppers? Well, you were > right! > PRR had freight car colors that had different properties. They used > different types of paint for different purposes. The covered hoppers got > "alkali resistant" FCC paint, the boxes did not. So, do what you want with > paint. Anyone who criticizes you for color is off base. > Elden > > -------------- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. And if you go back before synthentic paints (early 50's) the specification for freight car color was natural pigmented iron sesquioxide. Each paint shop acquired the paint locally so the local clay pigments resulted in different colors. My grandfather used to tell me he could tell which shop had painted the car when in new paint by the color without refering to the shop code. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "David J. Vinci" Subject: Re: [PRR] Scratchbuilding/kitbashing Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 16:54:39 -0400 Here's a blast from the past... I'm still running a few paper sided cars right along with the P2K tank cars, Train Mineatures X29 box cars, Athearn cars, MDC cars, Silver Streak cars, Ye Olde Huff N Puff Cars and Red Caboose Box cars. They each have their place and they're all appropriately weathered. Some have cast on detail and some have applied detail. For example my Old Frothingslosh reefer made from Bullitin car sides has all wire grabs and home made brake detail. I mean the layout wouldn't be the same without the whimsey and the biffy car. I always figured the thing was the trip not the destination so some cars and engines are detailed to the max and others are not. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Drew" To: "'PRR-Talk'" ; "'Lewis J. Matt PhD'" Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 3:27 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Scratchbuilding/kitbashing > Excellent points, Lew. > > Your resourcefulness in creating your detail parts is another trait that > modelers of today seem to lack -- if it's not available from Details West or > Cal-Scale, forget it. Foggy memory says that there was an article in MR a > few years back, by a fellow who made all manner of diesel detail parts from > things one could easily find around the house. > > I think this gets back to one's focus in the hobby -- you apparently are a > train operator, and so it's less important that a car buried in a yard have > its full complement of brake gear underneath, as it is unlikely to be seen > from the usual vantage point. > > Personally, I'm staying away from those gorgeous P2K cars, as their level of > detailing will make all my Athearn/ Roundhouse/ Accurail cars 'obsolete'. > I'm trying to maintain an equivalent level of detail (or lack of it) > throughout the car fleet -- weathering (how many modelers even weather their > cars?), proper weighting and good wheels, yes; individual grabs and ladders, > see-through roofwalks, etc., no. I did recently add wire brake rigging to an > Athearn reefer I was shaking together, it was indeed fun and made > construction of that car a little more challenging and therefore rewarding. > Of course, Mr. Thumbs broke a drill in the process... however, I can't see > spending the time involved on that one car to convert my entire fleet. There > are trains to run! > > So Lew, those steam traps: bend a finishing nail at a couple of different > angles, drill a hole in the car floor and install? Will be a problem for me, > I have to use talgo trucks on my passenger cars, my 24" min. radius > hidden-track curvature won't allow body mounts, even with free-swinging > couplers. Weighting to NMRA standards and metal RP25 wheels seems to solve > any talgo-induced derailment antics. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 19:09:32 EDT Subject: Re: P5As was Re: [PRR] RtR vs. Kits --part1_158.12e8def6.2a96c92c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/20/2002 2:35:06 PM Central Daylight Time, cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: > > Listers, > > Bruce Smith wrote: > after all, if an E44 came out in plastic, how many folks would > buy one of those? I know I would want a couple! > > We met get an idea of how well a limited appeal electric will do when > Bachman brings out their E-33. > > Who knows if it does well an E-44 might follow and maybe if it does well > they will decide to bring out older juice jacks. > > Hi IMHO, the E-44 would have a broader appeal than the E-33. It kind of scares me that the potential for an affordable E-44 could depend on sales of an E-33. I'm good for several E-44's, I can't say the same for the E-33's. Do you think a vote might sway the potential developers of the model? Al --part1_158.12e8def6.2a96c92c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 08/20/2002 2:35:06 PM Central Daylight Time, cpc1@westchestergov.com writes:



Listers,

Bruce Smith wrote:
after all, if an E44 came out in plastic, how many folks would
buy one of those?  I know I would want a couple!

We met get an idea of how well a limited appeal electric will do when
Bachman brings out their  E-33.

Who knows if it does well an E-44 might follow and maybe if it does well
they will decide to bring out older juice jacks.



Hi
IMHO, the E-44 would have a broader appeal than the E-33. It kind of scares me that the potential for an affordable E-44 could depend on sales of an E-33. I'm good for several E-44's, I can't say the same for the E-33's. Do you think a vote might sway the potential developers of the model?
Al --part1_158.12e8def6.2a96c92c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 19:23:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: P5As was Re: [PRR] RtR vs. Kits On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 AlbertSR@aol.com wrote: > Hi > IMHO, the E-44 would have a broader appeal than the E-33. It kind of scares > me that the potential for an affordable E-44 could depend on sales of an > E-33. I'm good for several E-44's, I can't say the same for the E-33's. Do > you think a vote might sway the potential developers of the model? Get them for a drive (or hopefully at least trucks) to repower your Rivarossi U25C ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 20:11:58 -0400 From: John Ryan Subject: [PRR] Re: P5As The E-33 would have appeal for NH, N&W and VGN as well as PRR. John Ryan Derrick J Brashear wrote: >On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 AlbertSR@aol.com wrote: > >>Hi >>IMHO, the E-44 would have a broader appeal than the E-33. It kind of scares >>me that the potential for an affordable E-44 could depend on sales of an >>E-33. I'm good for several E-44's, I can't say the same for the E-33's. Do >>you think a vote might sway the potential developers of the model? >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 20:50:06 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] RE: Cary PRR Marker Lights The lamps on the boiler were "classification" lights used to show sections of regular trains (green) or extras (white), lit at night but flags (same colors) during the day. Markers were on the pilot and tender deck, to denote a complete train. When the PRR stopped using classification lights and flags the markers were placed on the boiler. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 21:57:41 -0400 From: davep Subject: E33 Re: [PRR] Re: P5As In addition to the 'E 33' at Roanaoke, another is in CT, last seen in 'restoration area' near, but not at, the Valley Railroad. I've one of the 'Lionel' Rubber Band 'E33s' (Bo Bo trucks... 8)>>) Enthusiastically, if poorly assembled by a Much Younger Me. VGN paint.... John Ryan wrote: > The E-33 would have appeal for NH, N&W and VGN as well as PRR. > > John Ryan > > Derrick J Brashear wrote: > >> On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 AlbertSR@aol.com wrote: >> >>> Hi >>> IMHO, the E-44 would have a broader appeal than the E-33. It kind of >>> scares me that the potential for an affordable E-44 could depend on >>> sales of an E-33. I'm good for several E-44's, I can't say the same >>> for the E-33's. Do you think a vote might sway the potential >>> developers of the model? best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: [PRR] dual mode decoder? Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:01:53 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C24A27.8645DA60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am presently working on a Bowser engine that I will run in a club with DC. DCC is in the near future. Is their a decoder that will detect if the track is DC or DCC(dual mode) Who makes it and about how much do they cost? The motor is isolated from the frame. Greg V ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C24A27.8645DA60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am presently working on a Bowser engine that I will run in a = club with DC.  DCC is in the near = future.  Is their a decoder that will = detect if the track is DC or DCC(dual mode)  Who  makes it and = about how much do they cost?  The = motor is isolated from the frame.

 

Greg V

------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C24A27.8645DA60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:15:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] H21a Questions In a message dated 8/20/02 12:32:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, preinhol@unidie.com writes: << Was the change from top operated couplers and carmer cut levers to bottom operated couplers and rod cut levers part of a rebuild program or just normal maintenance. >> I believe, from reading Teichmoeller, 1.) that the bottom operating Carmer cut lever may have been used since it was less expensive and 2.) may have been "outlawed" by some point in time because persons climbing between stopped cars could cause accidental uncoupling, when the train restarted, by steping on the lever. Dick Ross, Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:29:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] dual mode decoder? In a message dated 8/22/02 9:12:21 PM Central Daylight Time, gregv@NetReach.Net writes: << Is their a decoder that will detect if the track is DC or DCC(dual mode) >> You can leave DC mode enabled in most decoders. Your loco will then operate in either mode. However, some DCC clubs in this area (ours included) make it a policy that all locos have DC disabled to operate on the club layout. There have reportedly been some glitches encountered with DC-enabled locos on the system (I've never personally experienced them). It only takes about 30 seconds to change back and forth. Atlas decoders also have a mechanical switching method which require removing the body to access, as well as the usual DC enable/disable in software. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:40:04 EDT Subject: Re: P5As was Re: [PRR] RtR vs. Kits In a message dated 8/22/02 7:42:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, shadow@dementia.org writes: << IMHO, the E-44 would have a broader appeal than the E-33. It kind of scares > me that the potential for an affordable E-44 could depend on sales of an > E-33. I'm good for several E-44's, I can't say the same for the E-33's. Do > you think a vote might sway the potential developers of the model? Get them for a drive (or hopefully at least trucks) to repower your Rivarossi U25C ;-) >> You won't have to worry about repowering your old AHM U-25c's much longer. Walthers sent out a sheet to hobby shops listing future new projects and the U-25 c was one of them with a brand new drive. Also included was a new series of heavyweight passenger cars from Rivarossi not the old ones redone. ---------------------------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 23:35:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Cary PRR Marker Lights --part1_6a.24e70189.2a97078c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hmmm...Thanks for the information! It doesn't seem I will have any use for these since I model more 40's and 50's! I haven't paid the guy for these yet, but if anyone wants them he wanted $4 so I'd sell them for $4. Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo --part1_6a.24e70189.2a97078c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hmmm...Thanks for the information! It doesn't seem I will have any use for these since I model more 40's and 50's!
I haven't paid the guy for these yet, but if anyone wants them he wanted $4 so I'd sell them for $4.
Mike Schock
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
PRRT&HS  #7136
List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo
--part1_6a.24e70189.2a97078c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: Cary PRR Marker Lights Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 23:45:27 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C24A35.FDE8A6C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Keystone Spring 2002 issue had an article done by Elmer M. Steuernagel on the 1922-1957 two piece cast iron electric marker/classification lamps. Check out pgs 30,31,34. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of USMCnewdog25431@cs.com Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:36 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Cary PRR Marker Lights Hmmm...Thanks for the information! It doesn't seem I will have any use for these since I model more 40's and 50's! I haven't paid the guy for these yet, but if anyone wants them he wanted $4 so I'd sell them for $4. Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period PRRT&HS #7136 List Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C24A35.FDE8A6C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The Keystone Spring 2002 issue had an article done by = Elmer M. Steuernagel on the 1922-1957 two piece cast iron electric = marker/classification lamps.=A0 Check out pgs = 30,31,34.

 

Gr= eg V

 

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf = Of USMCnewdog25431@cs.com
Sent: Thursday, August = 22, 2002 11:36 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: = Cary PRR Marker Lights

 

Hmmm...Thanks for the information! It doesn't seem I will have any use for these since = I model more 40's and 50's!
I haven't paid the guy for these yet, but if anyone wants them he wanted = $4 so I'd sell them for $4.
Mike Schock =
Sandusky, Ohio
Modeling The PRR and some B&O in the Transition period
PRRT&HS  #7136
List = Owner of the Transition RR Modelers Group on Yahoo <= /p>

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C24A35.FDE8A6C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 08:24:07 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: E33/E44 was Re: [PRR] P5As >The E-33 would have appeal for NH, N&W and VGN as well as PRR. > >John Ryan So really the bottom line is...Since both model are common to the PC/CR market, is the the combined NH, N&W, VGN market larger or smaller than the PRR, Amtrak market? I duuno... BTW, I looked at Standard Hobby's catalog yesterday and they are advertising the E33 at for release 9/02, with a "set of 2" retailing at $130, listing at $73.99. I'll save the editorial comments until I get to see the actual loco (ie...is it a stunningly inexpensive, well done loco, or a classic "Botchman" special? ) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: E33/E44 was Re: [PRR] P5As Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 13:39:27 +0000 Although I think the E33 market is bigger didn't NJT also have a couple of E44's? Also, didn't PC and CR run them for a while? Muskingham Electric fans are probably our there in droves just waiting for their version. > >The E-33 would have appeal for NH, N&W and VGN as well as PRR. > > > >John Ryan > > So really the bottom line is...Since both model are common to the PC/CR > market, is the the combined NH, N&W, VGN market larger or smaller than the > PRR, Amtrak market? I duuno... > > BTW, I looked at Standard Hobby's catalog yesterday and they are > advertising the E33 at for release 9/02, with a "set of 2" retailing at > $130, listing at $73.99. I'll save the editorial comments until I get to > see the actual loco (ie...is it a stunningly inexpensive, well done loco, > or a classic "Botchman" special? ) > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 08:53:43 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: E33/E44 was Re: [PRR] P5As >Although I think the E33 market is bigger didn't NJT >also have a couple of E44's? Also, didn't PC and CR run >them for a while? Muskingham Electric fans are probably >our there in droves just waiting for their version. Yes, I think NJT did, but like Amtrak, they weren't seen very much! I didn't mention PC or CR in either list, as I noted that they were "common" to both locos...so both E33 and E44 would appeal to those markets. ME's locos were (are) really E50's with some differences from the E44, so those would be a kitbash, but a fun project. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Anderson Charles L CRPH Subject: [PRR] Unsubscribe... Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 10:20:31 -0400 This message is in MIME format. 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Please = discontinue my subscription..

 

=

UNSUBSCRIBE

 

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=
------_=_NextPart_001_01C24AB0.3CFE8D50-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] H21a Questions Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:26:48 -0400 I thought the Carmer Cut lever was outlawed because the motion to activate un-coupling was to push downward. With weather conditions, dirt, etc. that builds up on cars, brakemen either died or were injured from their hands slipping off the lever and their body weight momentum caused them to fall into the path of the cars. Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of VVA249@aol.com Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 10:16 PM To: preinhol@unidie.com; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] H21a Questions In a message dated 8/20/02 12:32:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, preinhol@unidie.com writes: << Was the change from top operated couplers and carmer cut levers to bottom operated couplers and rod cut levers part of a rebuild program or just normal maintenance. >> I believe, from reading Teichmoeller, 1.) that the bottom operating Carmer cut lever may have been used since it was less expensive and 2.) may have been "outlawed" by some point in time because persons climbing between stopped cars could cause accidental uncoupling, when the train restarted, by steping on the lever. Dick Ross, Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Aerotrain Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 18:44:01 +0000 Aerotrain pictures are few and far between. Does anybody know what help if any it required to get over the curve? Was it a pusher or on the front end? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:53:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Aerotrain Norm, Never seen photos of the Aerotrain with helpers of any kind. Evidently the 8, 9 or 10 car train had no problem attacking the curve.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:56:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Aerotrain From: Jerry Britton On 8/23/02 2:44 PM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > Aerotrain pictures are few and far between. Does > anybody know what help if any it required to get over > the curve? Was it a pusher or on the front end? All of the photos I have seen show it on its own. Helpers on a passenger train, I think, were always at the front...for safety reasons. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 15:03:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Aerotrain --part1_27.2c7df52d.2a97e11e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/23/02 2:52:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ndbprr@att.net writes: > Aerotrain pictures are few and far between. Does > anybody know what help if any it required to get over > the curve? Was it a pusher or on the front end? > Thanks, Norm Bell > Hi Norm and others, Videos of the Aerotrain are quite numerous. One of Clarence Weaver's shows the Aerotrain climbing the Horseshoe Curve unassisted. It didn't require much power to pull 10 little bus-body cars up the grade. Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_27.2c7df52d.2a97e11e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/23/02 2:52:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ndbprr@att.net writes:


Aerotrain pictures are few and far between.  Does
anybody know what help if any it required to get over
the curve?  Was it a pusher or on the front end? 
Thanks, Norm Bell


Hi Norm and others,

Videos of the Aerotrain are quite numerous.  One of Clarence Weaver's shows the Aerotrain climbing the Horseshoe Curve unassisted.  It didn't require much power to pull 10 little bus-body cars up the grade.

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 --part1_27.2c7df52d.2a97e11e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Conan Evans" Subject: RE: [PRR] Aerotrain Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 15:06:23 -0400 I've never seen any pics to document helpers required on the Aerotrain. The whole concept there was to have a light weight train set. The thing was light and road rough in part I guess because of it's light weight, according to reports... like underweight model freight cars do. PRR Power II has some scenes of the Aerotrain on the east slope, westbound. Conan Evans Bristow, VA -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of ndbprr@att.net Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 2:44 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Aerotrain Aerotrain pictures are few and far between. Does anybody know what help if any it required to get over the curve? Was it a pusher or on the front end? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Aug 02 16:36:36 EDT From: LINKM@timken.com Subject: [PRR] PRR H-21a QUESTION Guys, I also read Techimoller's PRR steel open hopper book and I remember reading tha t the Carmer cut levers were especially dangerous in the wintertime as the coup lers could have ice build up on the mechanism. Also, workers had to push down o n them, and if they slipped off, they could fall on the rail and be seriously i njured during say a hump type operation if the train was moving. Matt Link PRR T&HS #7140 Vice President - Crestline Roundhouse Preservation Society Modeling Crestline in HO scale - 1946 ********************************************************************** This message and any attachments are intended for the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not forward, copy, print, use or disclose this communication to others; also please notify the sender by replying to this message, and then delete it from your system. The Timken Company ********************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 17:49:07 -0400 (EDT) From: chaslett@cse.l-3com.com Subject: [PRR] Fall NMRA MER Conventoin in Cherry Hill NJ Hi to all, Just wanted to pass this on to all the modelers on the list. The Fall Mid-East Region NMRA convention will be right in the heart of PRSL country, Friday, October 4th through Sunday October 6th, in Cherry Hill NJ at the Clarion hotel. Included as one of the tours is a trip down to the Cape May Court House area to ride on the Cape May Seashore Lines' 50 year old RDCs from the early diesel days of the PRSL. They have several of the original units up and running, 50 years after they were originally obtained by the Pennsy & Reading from Budd. The line also owns a PRR diesel used on special runs & dinner trains. Several PRRT&HS member's layouts will also be open for the convention. Web site for convention info is http://home.earthlink.net/~mikemcnh/boxcar/fall02.html Anyone who wants to know more, please e-mail me DIRECTLY at carl.haslett@L-3Com.com Carl Haslett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Baldwin Locomotive Works Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 23:26:14 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C24AFC.790CEF20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BLW has always been an area of fascination for me. It was enormous, yet I have found no historical society for it. I am most interested in a track diagram and photos from the Eddystone Plant. Does anyone have any info on BLW. I am seeking more than what was published in the Fred Westing book. I read somewhere that their was a fire that destroyed many documents. Is their any truth to the fire? By the way, the PRR mainline tower that once controlled the interlock still stands just south of interstate 95. Boarded up and about to fall over. Greg V ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C24AFC.790CEF20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

BLW has always been an area of fascination for me.  It was enormous, yet I have = found no historical society for it.  I am most interested in a track diagram and photos from the Eddystone Plant.  Does anyone have any info on = BLW.  I am seeking more than what = was published in the Fred Westing book.  = I read somewhere that their was a fire that destroyed many documents.  Is their any truth to the fire? =

 

 By the way, the = PRR mainline tower that once controlled the interlock still stands just = south of interstate 95.  Boarded up = and about to fall over.

 

Greg V

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C24AFC.790CEF20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 11:26:32 -0400 Subject: Re: E33/E44 was Re: [PRR] P5As From: "M. E Allen" NJT did acquire some E44s [8 comes to mind but I would have to check] in its early days as part of an equipment swap. The idea was supposedly to replace Gs on some heavy pasenger trains. Then they discovered that they wouldn't fit through the tunnel. MEA On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 08:53:43 -0500 "Bruce F. Smith" writes: > >Although I think the E33 market is bigger didn't NJT also have a couple of E44's? Also, didn't PC and CR run them for a while? Muskingham Electric fans are probably our there in droves just waiting for their version. > > Yes, I think NJT did, but like Amtrak, they weren't seen very much! I didn't mention PC or CR in either list, as I noted that they were "common" to both locos...so both E33 and E44 would appeal to those markets. ME's locos were (are) really E50's with some differences from the E44, so those would be a kitbash, but a fun project. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - > Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ > ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ > __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | > ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 > 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] Baldwin Locomotive Works Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:12:29 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C24B80.A97EED00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A few books come to mind: History of the Baldwin Locomotive Works 1831-1923 Published by Baldwin  Good luck finding this one The Baldwin Locomotive Works 1831-1912 A Study in American Industrial Practice By John K. Brown Published by The Johns Hopkins University Press  still available Like the title says  a study The Story of Eddystone A pictorial account of the Baldwin locomotive works in 1928 Published by Glenwood Publishers Page 74 has a plan of the Eddystone Works Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Volume 2  Baldwin Switchers and Road Switchers Volume 4  Baldwin Cab and Transfer Units By John D. Hahn, Jr. Published by Withers Publishing Jerry may have them in stock? **all you guys looking for the big transfer units** Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com.trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr. Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 11:26 PM To: PRR Talk List Subject: [PRR] Baldwin Locomotive Works BLW has always been an area of fascination for me. It was enormous, yet I have found no historical society for it. I am most interested in a track diagram and photos from the Eddystone Plant. Does anyone have any info on BLW. I am seeking more than what was published in the Fred Westing book. I read somewhere that their was a fire that destroyed many documents. Is their any truth to the fire? By the way, the PRR mainline tower that once controlled the interlock still stands just south of interstate 95. Boarded up and about to fall over. Greg V ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C24B80.A97EED00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

A = few books come to mind:

 

Hi= story of the Baldwin Locomotive Works = 1831-1923

Pu= blished by Baldwin – Good luck finding this = one

 

Th= e Baldwin Locomotive Works 1831-1912

A = Study in American Industrial Practice

By= John K. Brown

Pu= blished by The Johns Hopkins University Press – still = available

Li= ke the title says – a study

 

Th= e Story of Eddystone

A pictorial account of the Baldwin locomotive works in = 1928

Pu= blished by Glenwood  = Publishers

Pa= ge 74 has a plan of the Eddystone Works

 

Pe= nnsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial

Vo= lume 2 – Baldwin Switchers and Road Switchers

Vo= lume 4 – Baldwin Cab and Transfer Units

By= John D. Hahn, Jr.

Pu= blished by Withers Publishing

Je= rry may have them in stock?

**= all you guys looking for the big transfer = units**

 

 

Cos

=

Wayne S. = Betty

Cos Communications, Inc.

=

Small = business IT services.

=

 

Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road

=

NMRA, = MER, Susquehanna Div, 11

=

NHRS, = Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061

=

http://www.wsbcos.com.trainsmenu.htm

at the west end of the PRR electrified = zone

=

<= span class=3DEmailStyle17> 

-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf = Of Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr.
Sent: Friday, August 23, = 2002 11:26 PM
To: PRR Talk List
Subject: [PRR] Baldwin = Locomotive Works

 

BLW has always been an area of fascination for me.  It was enormous, yet = I have found no historical society for it.  I am most interested in a track diagram and photos from the = Eddystone Plant.  Does anyone have = any info on BLW.  I am seeking more = than what was published in the Fred Westing book.  I read somewhere that their was a fire that destroyed many documents.  Is their any = truth to the fire?

 

 By the way, the PRR mainline tower that once controlled the interlock still = stands just south of interstate 95.  Boarded up and about to fall = over.

 

Greg V

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C24B80.A97EED00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mouldymay@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:35:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Baldwin Locomotive Works --part1_ce.2b85c4d2.2a993a08_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Speaking of Baldwin History. John E. Dupont, who shot the wrestler and is currently in jail, is the Maternal Grandson of William Liseter Austin, former President of Baldwin. --part1_ce.2b85c4d2.2a993a08_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Speaking of Baldwin History.  John E. Dupont, who shot the wrestler and is currently in jail, is the Maternal Grandson of William Liseter Austin, former President of Baldwin. --part1_ce.2b85c4d2.2a993a08_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 14:02:37 -0700 From: Subject: [PRR] 1944 AAR boxcar = X35? hey guys, I have a C& BT 1944 AAR boxcar and would like to do her in Pennsy ala 1952. In looking over the candidates I believe that it almost matches an X35. I say almost because the number of panels on the model are 6 to left and right of door, but the X35 has 5. Door width matches at 6', and the ends "appear" to match. My questions are: 1. Is the X35 a "1944 AAR boxcar".(If answered in the affermative, go on to 2-4) 2. What door is appropriate. 3. What is the number series. 4. Does it follow "standard" lettering (again 1952) Any help is appreciated. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 17:09:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin Locomotive Works In a message dated 8/24/02 2:22:01 PM, cos@mycyberlink.net writes: << History of the Baldwin Locomotive Works 1831-1923 Published by Baldwin Good luck finding this one >> Actually, this one appears to be available on CD-ROM for $25 plus shipping and handling. See "http://www.historybroker.com/cds/cd2.htm". I didn't check any of the others, but a Google search might locate a copy easily. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:16:02 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin Locomotive Works > In a message dated 8/24/02 2:22:01 PM, cos@mycyberlink.net writes: > History of the Baldwin Locomotive Works 1831-1923 > Published by Baldwin Good luck finding this one To which LAMAssoc@aol.com wrote: > Actually, this one appears to be available on CD-ROM for $25 plus > shipping and handling. > See "http://www.historybroker.com/cds/cd2.htm". > > I didn't check any of the others, but a Google search might locate > a copy easily. To which I add: For books, search at www.abebooks.com. That turned up 6 or 7 copies of a 1971 reprint, priced in the range $17 and up, and 4 or 5 copies of the original, starting around $125. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Charles Ring CSRE CBNT W3NU Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 20:35:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Baldwin Locomotive Works robert netzlof wrote: > > In a message dated 8/24/02 2:22:01 PM, cos@mycyberlink.net writes: > > > History of the Baldwin Locomotive Works 1831-1923 > > Published by Baldwin Good luck finding this one > > To which LAMAssoc@aol.com wrote: > > > Actually, this one appears to be available on CD-ROM for $25 plus > > shipping and handling. > > See "http://www.historybroker.com/cds/cd2.htm". > > > > I didn't check any of the others, but a Google search might locate > > a copy easily. > > To which I add: > > For books, search at www.abebooks.com. > > That turned up 6 or 7 copies of a 1971 reprint, priced in the range > $17 and up, and 4 or 5 copies of the original, starting around $125. > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob It's also reproduced at the front of Fred Westing's 1966 book "The Locomotives that Baldwin built", which I have. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] 1944 AAR boxcar = X35? Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 19:41:01 -0500 Hi Walt--In a word, no. The 1944 AAR design boxcar led to PRR classes X43, X43a, and X43b, all with 7 ft door, also X43c with 8 ft door. For the X35, from The Keystone, December 1981, in the article entitled "The Pennsylvania Box Car of World War II". The article concerns mainly the X37 and X38 series, but provides the following with regard to the X35: "The X37 box car was based on the X35; a single car numbered 36986 which PRR built as a sample of the 1932 AAR Standard Box Car design. It had a capacity of 50 tons and inside dimensions of 40'-6" long, 8'-9 1/8" wide and 9'-4" high...." and "...6'-0" doorway..." and "...the car was carried on the roster until after the war." Have fun! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Frank Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] 1944 AAR boxcar = X35? Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:48:08 -0400 Walt Prusick asked: I have a C&BT 1944 AAR boxcar and would like to do her in Pennsy ala 1952. In looking over the candidates I believe that it almost matches an X35. I say almost because the number of panels on the model are 6 to left and right of door, but the X35 has 5. Door width matches at 6', and the ends "appear" to match. My questions are: 1. Is the X35 a "1944 AAR boxcar?" Steve Hoxie answered: In a word, no. The 1944 AAR design boxcar led to PRR classes X43, X43a, and X43b, all with 7 ft door, also X43c with 8 ft door. Walt, if you have one of the C&BT 12-panel cars, it does NOT match any PRR prototype but matches ATSF and D&RGW prototypes. For a summary of Postwar AAR Boxcar prototypes compiled by Ed Hawkins, go to Ted Culotta's Steam Era Freight Car Website: http://www.steamfreightcars.com/prototype/frtcars/postwaraarpdf.html More information and photos are in the October 1999, November 1999, and January 2000 issues of Railmodel Journal; the Railmodel Journal compendium Book I: Boxcars, and Santa Fe Boxcars 1869-1953 (John Dobyne). Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 19:44:29 -0400 From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Re: From: Garry Spear Subject: [PRR] Re: From: Garry Spear > Mark, > Sorry, but the Spanish system of money 100 centavos = 1 dollar well > predates the US system. In fact Spanish dollars were legal tender in this > country until the 1850s. Find a knowledgeable coin collector and talk with > them. > Garry Spear Actually, it turns out we're BOTH wrong. The first was Russia, 1704. We were either second or third, depending on what "partially decimal" means (in reference to Spain's system). But we're not WAY off topic, and I'll spare the bandwidth. Anyone who wants details, please email me in private. Garry, you'll get the full gory details I was able to scrounge up. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 20:59:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: E33/E44 was Re: [PRR] P5As M.E. Allen sez: "they (E44s) wouldn't fit through the tunnel." In mid 1960s, PRR tested coal train through tunnel pulled by E44s. The idea was to hand off train to the New Haven. PRR had no trouble squeezing E44 through tunnel. Trouble came when NH diesels tried to pull off with train when many couplers broke (from strain of Hudson Tunnel grade). I think the count was about 20. The article is in old "Pennsy"(?) magazine. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: E33/E44 was Re: [PRR] P5As Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 21:30:44 -0400 I can't see how E44's would have been suitable for passenger service at all. They had no steam generator for earlier passenger trains, nor head end power for post-Amtrak trains. Since they were never intended as passenger power, might have been a problem to find the space all in one place to put in a steam generator, or hep transformers. BTW, anyone interested in a Brill lightweight gas-electric like PRR's? Edwards Rail Motor Car has one, completely rebuilt, for $95,000. Gregg Mahlkov Dave writes: M.E. Allen sez: "they (E44s) wouldn't fit through the tunnel." In mid 1960s, PRR tested coal train through tunnel pulled by E44s. The idea was to hand off train to the New Haven. PRR had no trouble squeezing E44 through tunnel. Trouble came when NH diesels tried to pull off with train when many couplers broke (from strain of Hudson Tunnel grade). I think the count was about 20. The article is in old "Pennsy"(?) magazine. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 22:10:12 -0400 Subject: Re: E33/E44 was Re: [PRR] P5As In Timetable #21, 4/24/66, GG1 and E44 classes are treated identically as far as movement restrictions. There is a note that more than two GG1s are restricted through the tunnels, but this does not apply to E44s. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: E33/E44 was Re: [PRR] P5As Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 22:28:28 -0400 I can vouch for what happened if 3 GG1's had to start a train in the B&P tunnel - all the lights in Penn Station, Baltimore, went out!! They were flourescent and the voltage dropped below 80 volts. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 10:10 PM Subject: Re: E33/E44 was Re: [PRR] P5As > In Timetable #21, 4/24/66, GG1 and E44 classes are treated > identically as far as movement restrictions. There is a note that > more than two GG1s are restricted through the tunnels, but this > does not apply to E44s. > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:03:48 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Class E44 in North River Tunnels Somebody within the past few days stated the reason the class E44 units were not used in the North River Tunnels was they didn't fit. Well I remember in the 1960s a test freight (coal) train was run through the North River Tunnels with three class E44 units in the lead! The reason it was not done again was the grades present in the tunnel. A quick check of SI 1160-A1a (Engine and Special Load Restrictions) for the New York Division (Eastern Region) shows the class GG1 and E44 in the same column (6) which means anywhere a GG1 could or could not go an E44 could or could not go. The third listing in that SI covers the territory from Sunnyside to West Portal North River Tunnels and the GG1 and E44 ARE NOT restricted there from. Please check your facts first, we already have enough urban legends afloat. Thanx. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 03:35:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Class E44 in North River Tunnels From: "M. E Allen" Al, Dave, et alia; I apologize for not making this clear in my original post. I know about the coal train tests and the restrictions or rather the lack there of. The context of what I said was specifically about NJ Transit's use of E44s Pulling out my notes from a conversation with an NJ Transit Official in 1990 - the reason he gave us for the engines never going into service was "Clearance problems resulting from re-profiling track in the tunnels." This was Transit's public reasoning. The reality of a clearance diagram probably had nothing to do with the decision. MEA On Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:03:48 -0400 Al Buchan writes: > Somebody within the past few days stated the reason the class E44 units were not used in the North River Tunnels was they didn't fit. Well I remember in the 1960s a test freight (coal) train was run through the North River Tunnels with three class E44 units in the lead! The reason it was not done again was the grades present in the tunnel. A quick check of SI 1160-A1a (Engine and Special Load Restrictions) for the New York Division (Eastern Region) shows the class GG1 and E44 in the same column (6) which means anywhere a GG1 could or could not go an E44 could or could not go. The third listing in that SI covers the territory from Sunnyside to West Portal North River Tunnels and the GG1 and E44 ARE NOT restricted there from. Please check your facts first, we already have enough urban legends afloat. Thanx. > Al ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 09:15:07 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Class E44 in North River Tunnels > I apologize for not making this clear in my original post. I know about > the coal train tests and the restrictions or rather the lack there of. > The context of what I said was specifically about NJ Transit's use of > E44s. > Pulling out my notes from a conversation with an NJ Transit Official in > 1990 - the reason he gave us for the engines never going into service was > "Clearance problems resulting from re-profiling track in the tunnels." This was 1990. What was the date on the ETT cited earlier? PRR? If so, things May have Legitimately changed. And anyone who authorizes an 'unusual' move had better be Real Sure. If, ferinstance, track was reballasted, etc, in the interim... cf the (apparently True) tale of the first GG1 to NH... >> were not used in the North River Tunnels was they didn't fit. Well I >> remember in the 1960s a test freight (coal) train was run through the >> North River Tunnels with three class E44 units in the lead! Indeed. and the tunnel(s) may have been reballasted between 1960 and 1990... best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 09:28:05 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: E33/E44 was Re: [PRR] P5As > I can't see how E44's would have been suitable for >passenger service at all. The test and discussion was about _coal_ trains..: >> "they (E44s) wouldn't fit through the tunnel." >> In mid 1960s, PRR tested coal train through tunnel pulled by E44s. >> The idea was to hand off train to the New Haven. PRR had no trouble >> squeezing E44 through tunnel. Trouble came when NH diesels tried to pull >> off with train when many couplers broke (from strain of Hudson Tunnel >> grade). I think the count was about 20. >> The article is in old "Pennsy"(?) magazine. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: E33/E44 was Re: [PRR] P5As Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 09:45:43 -0400 Dave, The discussion was about NEW JERSEY TRANSIT'S purchase of E44's and then not using them. I was not aware that NJT was a big operator of coal trains! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "davep" To: Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 9:28 AM Subject: Re: E33/E44 was Re: [PRR] P5As > > I can't see how E44's would have been suitable for > > >passenger service at all. > > The test and discussion was about _coal_ trains..: > > > >> "they (E44s) wouldn't fit through the tunnel." > > >> In mid 1960s, PRR tested coal train through tunnel pulled by E44s. > >> The idea was to hand off train to the New Haven. PRR had no trouble > >> squeezing E44 through tunnel. Trouble came when NH diesels tried to pull > >> off with train when many couplers broke (from strain of Hudson Tunnel > >> grade). I think the count was about 20. > >> The article is in old "Pennsy"(?) magazine. > > > best > dwp > > ...the net of a million lies... > Vernor Vinge > There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. > -me > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 09:46:02 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: E33/E44 was Re: [PRR] P5As The cited text use was about coal trains in 1960s. The cited exclusion was about NJT ca 1990. In 30 years things can change.... Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > Dave, > > The discussion was about NEW JERSEY TRANSIT'S purchase of E44's and then not > using them. I was not aware that NJT was a big operator of coal trains! > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "davep" > To: > Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 9:28 AM > Subject: Re: E33/E44 was Re: [PRR] P5As > > > >>>I can't see how E44's would have been suitable for >>> >>>passenger service at all. >>> >>The test and discussion was about _coal_ trains..: >> >> >> >>>> "they (E44s) wouldn't fit through the tunnel." >>>> >>>> In mid 1960s, PRR tested coal train through tunnel pulled by E44s. >>>> The idea was to hand off train to the New Haven. PRR had no trouble >>>> squeezing E44 through tunnel. Trouble came when NH diesels tried to >>>> > pull > >>>> off with train when many couplers broke (from strain of Hudson Tunnel >>>> grade). I think the count was about 20. >>>> The article is in old "Pennsy"(?) magazine. >>>> >> >>best >>dwp >> >>...the net of a million lies... >>Vernor Vinge >>There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. >>-me >> >> >>----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >> >> > > > -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 07:56:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Benjamin Sullivan Subject: [PRR] DelMarVa B6sb? Hello PRR-Talk-ers, I was down in DelMarVa this weekend (Selbyville, Frankford, Millford, Georgetown, Dover, etc.) visiting friends. I remember hearing somewhere that there is a PRR B6sb located somewhere out there. I'm curious where that PRR B6sb is located. Is it still on DelMarVa? Is it elsewhere? Is it hidden? Is it a myth?! Thanks! - Ben Sullivan ===== ____________________________________________________________ Ride the East Broad Top RR! http://www.spikesys.com/EBT Rockhill Furnace, PA __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 13:23:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Class E44 in North River Tunnels I have an Amtrak operating timetable from 1991; I can no longer find any mention of E44s. So by that year I guess it was a moot question. Freight trains through the tunnels were limited to 50 cars, could not contain placarded cars, etc, etc. All Conrail diesels were restricted through the tunnels, by the way. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 13:30:44 -0400 Subject: Re: E33/E44 was Re: [PRR] P5As If NJT was thinking of powering passenger movements into NYP using E44s, perhaps they were thinking of using power cars to provide HEP. Now, power cars have diesel engines; not sure they would have been allowed in this territory! If NJT actually acquired E44s, what else could they have been thinking of? Ballast trains between Rahway and Matawan maybe? Pretty unlikely. The unthinkable? That they bought the E44s without considering the HEP question! Stranger things have happened. How many years did NJT hold a fleet of Arrow MUs in mothballs waiting for the electrification of the Morris & Essex lines to be done in 1984? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: E33/E44 was Re: [PRR] P5As Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 18:12:07 +0000 Since they were electrics to begin with how difficult would it have been to tap into the power at the right voltage to provide HEP requirements? It seems to me that they could have found a place for a step down transformer or whatever equipment was required. I suspect that the PCB problem may have been more of a factor in what doomed them rather than size. Norm Bell > If NJT was thinking of powering passenger movements into NYP > using E44s, perhaps they were thinking of using power cars to > provide HEP. Now, power cars have diesel engines; not sure they > would have been allowed in this territory! If NJT actually acquired > E44s, what else could they have been thinking of? Ballast trains > between Rahway and Matawan maybe? Pretty unlikely. The > unthinkable? That they bought the E44s without considering the > HEP question! Stranger things have happened. How many years > did NJT hold a fleet of Arrow MUs in mothballs waiting for the > electrification of the Morris & Essex lines to be done in 1984? > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 14:31:17 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: E33/E44 was Re: [PRR] P5As ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Since they were electrics to begin with how difficult > would it have been to tap into the power at the right > voltage to provide HEP requirements? 1) They were proposed to move coal trains.... 2) The main power was/is 25 Hz. HEP needs 60 Hz. (E60 used motor alternator, AEM-7 uses inverter). best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 18:07:16 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: A funny website Anyone else get this - supposdly from rob, but the real sender is buried in the trailer. I did not open it and don't think it would be a good idea. Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:20:27 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR: Pulling power From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" The Proto Erie Builts are great engines. I have my duo pulling 72 hopper cars and a cabin car around the Galveston Model RR Club layout, including up 2 and 3% grades. The engines have so much pull I think they will handle 100 cars. Operating this long train is great. You can actually see the slack run in and out while starting up and stopping. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LAMAassoc@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 18:34:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Pulling power In a message dated 8/26/02 5:26:47 PM, harperd@tamug.tamu.edu writes: << Operating this long train is great. You can actually see the slack run in and out while starting up and stopping. >> I believe we used to discipline engineers when they started and didn't gradually pull out all the slack. If they started too abruptly, they would actually pull out a draw bar. At least, that is how I recall it. Regards, Marty ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:06:29 EDT Subject: [PRR] NJT'S Silver and Black E-44s --part1_a5.2c8e8b2b.2a9c0e75_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The plan was to combine components of the E-44s and the some of the remaining E-8s units to come up with a dual mode loco. However for various reasons it was deemed unworkable. Ray Burghart SPF for over 50 years --part1_a5.2c8e8b2b.2a9c0e75_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The plan was to combine components of the E-44s and the some of the remaining E-8s units to come up with a dual mode loco. However for various reasons it was deemed unworkable.

Ray Burghart
SPF for over 50 years --part1_a5.2c8e8b2b.2a9c0e75_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 21:39:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] NJT'S Silver and Black E-44s Ray wrote: (NJT's) plan was to combine components of the E-44s and the some of the remaining E-8s units to come up with a dual mode loco. However for various reasons it was deemed unworkable. +++++++++++ Hmm, dual-mode, as in AC + Diesel? Always wondered why NJT didn't go the route of Metro-North, with Diesel/DC engines (FL9s and the new Genesis dual-mode types). Those third rails do extend to the west portal of the North River tunnel, I believe. Or perhaps practical use would require extending the DC electrification further west to allow changeover -- might be chancy to depend on engines changing power modes on the High Line in the rush hour! John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 21:57:18 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] NJT'S Silver and Black E-44s bobsin@nac.net wrote: > Ray wrote: >> (NJT's) plan was to combine components of the E-44s and the some of the >> remaining E-8s units to come up with a dual mode loco. However for >> various reasons it was deemed unworkable. > Hmm, dual-mode, as in AC + Diesel? Always wondered why NJT didn't go the > route of Metro-North, with Diesel/DC engines (FL9s and the new Genesis > dual-mode types). Depending on the exact time frame, there were several failed efforts at dual mode on the LIRR. NJT may have decided to Not Step Into that Swamp. (Dual mode diesel/thrid rail is easier than dual mode Diesel AC. AND detailed examination of the FL9 introduction shows Many Problems. > Those third rails do extend to the west portal of the > North River tunnel, I believe. Or perhaps practical use would require > extending the DC electrification further west to allow changeover -- > might be chancy to depend on engines changing power modes on the High > Line in the rush hour! EXACTLY. NH did not change power going up the grade under 'knick' tower, but further out... best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 22:38:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] NJT'S Silver and Black E-44s 0100,0100,0100dwp wrote, Depending on the exact time frame, there were several failed efforts at dual mode on the LIRR. ++++++++= Well, the LIRR does have a smattering of dual-service trains today, if their current public timetables are to be believed. 'Course, we shouldn't forget the ultimate solution to single-seat rides: the DD1! Recently I unearthed a June, 1941 LIRR public system timetable; there are quite a few trains straight through from New York to the steam branches; typical time at Jamaica (to change engines) was only four minutes, only a minute or so longer than allowed when the passengers switched trains. How long will it take them to duplicate the service of 60 years ago? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Budd doodlebug Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 13:08:39 +0000 Budd made a stainless steel fluted self propelled car with rubber tires that the PRR tried on the Norristown branch. Trains had a brief article on it many years ago. It was a disaster because it kept getting flat tires. Does anybody know of any good pictures or drawings that I could use to build one? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 09:17:37 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Pulling power Don, How many of the 72 hopper fit on the 3% grade at the same time? That's about 36 feet of train! I know Galveston is a large club and I'd love to see it some day. My son is living in Houston so its not beyond reason, even though I'm a Bostonian. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Donald E. Harper, Jr" wrote: > The Proto Erie Builts are great engines. I have my duo pulling 72 hopper > cars and a cabin car around the Galveston Model RR Club layout, including up > 2 and 3% grades. The engines have so much pull I think they will handle 100 > cars. > > Operating this long train is great. You can actually see the slack run in > and out while starting up and stopping. > > Don Harper > Texas A&M Marine Lab > 5007 Avenue U > Galveston, TX 77551 > 409/740-4540 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:25:40 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Budd doodlebug Norm asks >Budd made a stainless steel fluted self propelled car >with rubber tires that the PRR tried on the Norristown >branch. Trains had a brief article on it many years >ago. It was a disaster because it kept getting flat >tires. Does anybody know of any good pictures or >drawings that I could use to build one? Norm, I think htis was a 2 unit set, and Michelin was involved, hence the rubber tires on the wheels. There is at least one good shot of the units taken on the Octoraro branch in Oxford. The picture is in the Octoraro Branch reprint of the High Line and I beleive it also appears in Pennsy Power III (IIRC). The cars were painted Tuscan, and were very "home made" in appearance. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR: Pulling power Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 09:36:16 -0400 Are the cars NMRA weighted? Is the track tangent or on a curve.? I do believe they can pull many cars. I have an A-B-A set of P1K Erie builts and pulled a 65 car train over a friends layout with no problems. 1 area of the layout has a 3% grade with an S curve. They do pull well. When it comes to diesels, P2K puts out a great product. My question is what manufacturer of headlights(12volt?) should I use to put into P2K FA-1 units to get rid of the LED they have (for DCC) operation? I heard a few theory's on this. The LED pre-installed is just not bright enough. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andrew S. Miller Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 9:18 AM To: Donald E. Harper, Jr Cc: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Pulling power Don, How many of the 72 hopper fit on the 3% grade at the same time? That's about 36 feet of train! I know Galveston is a large club and I'd love to see it some day. My son is living in Houston so its not beyond reason, even though I'm a Bostonian. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Donald E. Harper, Jr" wrote: > The Proto Erie Builts are great engines. I have my duo pulling 72 hopper > cars and a cabin car around the Galveston Model RR Club layout, including up > 2 and 3% grades. The engines have so much pull I think they will handle 100 > cars. > > Operating this long train is great. You can actually see the slack run in > and out while starting up and stopping. > > Don Harper > Texas A&M Marine Lab > 5007 Avenue U > Galveston, TX 77551 > 409/740-4540 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:42:29 -0500 Subject: FW: [PRR] PRR: Pulling power From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" The 3% is not long, but is the ruling grade on the layout. The two units and probably 5 or 6 cars fit on the 3%, but then the grade is about 1.5% for about 5 feet, so the engines are still pulling uphill. I've seen other diesel units stall out on the 3% grade with far fewer cars than the Erie-builts pulled. Proto did a very nice job on those engines. Someday we'll get more photos posted on the web site. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- From: "Andrew S. Miller" To: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Pulling power Date: Tue, 27 Aug, 2002, 8:17 Don, How many of the 72 hopper fit on the 3% grade at the same time? That's about 36 feet of train! I know Galveston is a large club and I'd love to see it some day. My son is living in Houston so its not beyond reason, even though I'm a Bostonian. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Donald E. Harper, Jr" wrote: > The Proto Erie Builts are great engines. I have my duo pulling 72 hopper > cars and a cabin car around the Galveston Model RR Club layout, including up > 2 and 3% grades. The engines have so much pull I think they will handle 100 > cars. > > Operating this long train is great. You can actually see the slack run in > and out while starting up and stopping. > > Don Harper > Texas A&M Marine Lab > 5007 Avenue U > Galveston, TX 77551 > 409/740-4540 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:16:43 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: FW: [PRR] PRR: Pulling power I have an A-B-A set of Erie Builts, but typical of my experience, I built them from the Miracle Castings resin shells with modified Athearn drives. They have huge instrument can motors in them and lead everywhere there is spare room (which is not much). I chose Erie builts because they had the room for all that stuff. Sure enough, 6 months after I paid over $100 each for the shells, and drive components, (I had bought the motors many years ago) P1K released their Erie builts for $39 (+/-). Now I find out that the P1Ks pull almost as well as mine! :-( However, I have had my trio pulling 70 car coal drags up 2.5% grades with a , 36" rad curve, with the entire train on the grade, and half of it on the curve. And I can stop and restart on the hill. So I guess I should quit griping and be satisfied that I got the monster pullers that I wanted. I have 3 more of those motors left and my dream project is to build a set of Baldwin rectifier electrics for them. They too were slow speed monster pullers with room in the shell for these motors. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Donald E. Harper, Jr" wrote: > The 3% is not long, but is the ruling grade on the layout. The two units > and probably 5 or 6 cars fit on the 3%, but then the grade is about 1.5% for > about 5 feet, so the engines are still pulling uphill. I've seen other > diesel units stall out on the 3% grade with far fewer cars than the > Erie-builts pulled. Proto did a very nice job on those engines. > > Someday we'll get more photos posted on the web site. > > Don Harper > Texas A&M Marine Lab > 5007 Avenue U > Galveston, TX 77551 > 409/740-4540 > > ---------- > From: "Andrew S. Miller" > To: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Pulling power > Date: Tue, 27 Aug, 2002, 8:17 > > Don, > > How many of the 72 hopper fit on the 3% grade at the same time? That's > about 36 > feet of train! I know Galveston is a large club and I'd love to see it some > day. > My son is living in Houston so its not beyond reason, even though I'm a > Bostonian. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > "Donald E. Harper, Jr" wrote: > > > The Proto Erie Builts are great engines. I have my duo pulling 72 hopper > > cars and a cabin car around the Galveston Model RR Club layout, including up > > 2 and 3% grades. The engines have so much pull I think they will handle 100 > > cars. > > > > Operating this long train is great. You can actually see the slack run in > > and out while starting up and stopping. > > > > Don Harper > > Texas A&M Marine Lab > > 5007 Avenue U > > Galveston, TX 77551 > > 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Budd doodlebug Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 10:19:50 -0400 I believe there are plans in the "Wayner plan book" Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: E33/E44 was Re: [PRR] P5As From: Matthew J Brown Date: 27 Aug 2002 08:23:34 -0700 davep writes: > ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > > Since they were electrics to begin with how difficult would it have > > been to tap into the power at the right voltage to provide HEP > > requirements? > > 1) They were proposed to move coal trains.... There are two seperate discussions going on here and I think you've confused them. One was the PRR testing coal trains through the tunnel using E44 units. The other was NJT's apparent acquisition of E44s and then deciding they could not fit through the tunnels (accurately or falsely, who knows?) It has to my knowledge not been stated what NJT thought they wanted from E44s, but I doubt it was coal trains. It's possible that they didn't even think about whether E44 units were passenger compatible or not before doing that deal. -Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Chicago Chapter PRRT&HS Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 15:47:20 +0000 Our first meeting is set for 10/5/02 in south suburban Chicago. Anyone who hasn't gotten a direct e mail from me and wants to be included please send me an e mail and I will forward all the information. We have a good nucleus that semms very excited about getting this off the ground. If you know of anyone in the Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin area let them know as we want to hit the ground running. Who knows, in a couple of years you may be able to ride a train to the national convention in Chicago. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 12:24:49 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Derailment at Cove From: Jerry Britton With apologies if you aren't interested, but there is a derailment on the former PRR, former CR mainline between Marysville and Duncannon, approximately across from the Cove diner. Students were evacuated from the nearby Susquenita schools and sent home. That's all I know so far. (Can the NS dispatcher on the HarrisRailFan list provide any more info direct to me that I can repost?) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RBurg74133@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 12:35:35 EDT Subject: [PRR] RE: The Budd Michelin Cars --part1_34.2c72ad7c.2a9d0457_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There small plans and pictures in "The Passenger Car Library" #4 Mid- Atlantic RailRoads by David Randall. IMHO they are butt ugly and any attempts at modeling should be against the law account possible damage to the modeling gene pool. Ray Burghart SPF for over 50 years --part1_34.2c72ad7c.2a9d0457_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There small plans and pictures in "The Passenger Car Library" #4 Mid- Atlantic RailRoads
by David Randall. IMHO they are butt ugly and any attempts at modeling should be against the law account possible damage to the modeling gene pool.

Ray Burghart
SPF for over 50 years --part1_34.2c72ad7c.2a9d0457_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Pulling power Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 12:49:22 -0500 Hi Greg --For your FA-1 headlight, discard the P2K LED and wire direct to the decoder's white and blue wires a T1 LED and 1K ohm resitor. It looks great with that big Alco headlight. I use Hosfelt Electronics P/N 33-129; for orders call 1-800-524-6464. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 13:53:16 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: E33/E44 was Re: [PRR] P5As >>>Since they were electrics to begin with how difficult would it have >>>been to tap into the power at the right voltage to provide HEP >>>requirements? >>1) They were proposed to move coal trains.... > There are two seperate discussions going on here and I think you've > confused them. There is one discussion, history of the E44. One assertion was they would not fit, and NJT said so, Another assertion was that they WOULD fit and PRR said so, with the coal trains brought up as a case in point. Same lok, same subject: would they fit in the tunnels. > One was the PRR testing coal trains through the tunnel > using E44 units. cf above. > The other was NJT's apparent acquisition of E44s and > then deciding they could not fit through the tunnels > (accurately or falsely, who knows?) cf above. > It has to my knowledge not been stated what NJT thought they wanted > from E44s, but I doubt it was coal trains. It's possible that they > didn't even think about whether E44 units were passenger compatible or > not before doing that deal. IIR, AMTRAK assigned some to work train service. (or am i hallucinating???) This would seem rather an extravagance for NJT (tho i could be wrong...), and diesels, not requiring power, are more flexible in this regard.. best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 13:58:45 -0400 Subject: [PRR] More on the Cove Derailment From: Jerry Britton >From the WGAL web site: -----(snip)-------- Police: Train Falls Onto Vehicles Derailment Causes Traffic Problems POSTED: 10:05 a.m. EDT August 27, 2002 UPDATED: 12:05 p.m. EDT August 27, 2002 Police are reporting a train derailment along Routes 11/15 in Perdix, Perry County. Police said two cars of the 154-car train jumped the track. Seven other cars fell on two vehicles. The vehicles were empty. No on was injured in the derailment. The train was carrying Styrofoam packing material. The derailment is causing some traffic problems. Routes 11/15 are closed between Interstate 81 and Routes 22/322. -----(snip)-------- Hmmm, styrofoam...and they evacuated the schools? Wonder if the cars that were hit were on 11/15 or railfans parked on the shoulder? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 14:26:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Photographing the Rockville Bridge From: Jerry Britton On 8/27/02 1:44 PM, Earl Myers (emyers5@neo.rr.com) wrote: > I was just in that area Sunday trying to find a good spot to view/photo the > Rockville bridge. Anyone know where to go to do this and avoid all the leafy > trees on US11/15?? Maybe on the east side of the river?? The view isn't what it used to be. Boy, even 20 years ago it was a lot better! On the west side, on route 11/15, you can barely fit on the shoulder just south of the bridge. From there you can get a view of most of the bridge. Proceed on 11/15 a few hundred yards more, and just past being perpendicular to the bridge, a bluff rises from the grade of the highway. Park by the billboard. There is a trail that leads behind the billboard to the top of the bluff, which is covered with rock. From there you can get a decent high vantage point of most of the bridge. Unfortunately, from there you can't see anything coming from the east (Enola) or the west (Marysville). Also be very careful. It is about a 40' drop straight down to the tracks! Another nice spot, though low angle, is to take the subway under the tracks at Marysville, turn right, and head south. There is a mini-park just north of the bridge. This affords a view looking east where I have taken some nice shots. Continue south on this road and there will be a view looking north. You can get the entire length of the bridge in here. There is a section of rapids on the river as a reference to location. (If you continue south you will go across the new bridge that replaced the "old iron bridge" over the throat of Enola Yard.) I haven't been on the east side for years so I can't make any recommendations. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: E33/E44 was Re: [PRR] P5As Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 15:19:04 -0400 I took a look at the equipment diagrams on my website and the clearance envelopes of the GG1 and E44 look just about the same. The lock down pantograph height of both is 15' and the E44 is an inch or so narrower... It would seem that if an E44 can't make it through the tunnels anymore than neither could a G! The diagrams are at: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=ele Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of davep > Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 1:53 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: E33/E44 was Re: [PRR] P5As > > > >>>Since they were electrics to begin with how difficult would it have > >>>been to tap into the power at the right voltage to provide HEP > >>>requirements? > > >>1) They were proposed to move coal trains.... > > > There are two seperate discussions going on here and I think you've > > confused them. > > There is one discussion, history of the E44. > One assertion was they would not fit, and NJT said > so, Another assertion was that they WOULD fit > and PRR said so, with the coal trains brought up > as a case in point. > Same lok, same subject: would they fit in the > tunnels. > > > One was the PRR testing coal trains through the tunnel > > using E44 units. > > cf above. > > > The other was NJT's apparent acquisition of E44s and > > then deciding they could not fit through the tunnels > > > (accurately or falsely, who knows?) > cf above. > > > > It has to my knowledge not been stated what NJT thought they wanted > > from E44s, but I doubt it was coal trains. It's possible that they > > didn't even think about whether E44 units were passenger compatible or > > not before doing that deal. > > IIR, AMTRAK assigned some to work train service. > (or am i hallucinating???) > This would seem rather an extravagance for NJT > (tho i could be wrong...), and diesels, not > requiring power, are more flexible in this regard.. > > best > dwp > > ...the net of a million lies... > Vernor Vinge > There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. > -me > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 15:54:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Oriental Limited Web Site From: Jerry Britton Another "not so good" sign... The Oriental Limited URL (http://www.orientalltd.com) is once again responding. Unfortunately, it brings up a generic site of Internet links. A WhoIs lookup reveals the owner to be in Hong Kong. Until recently, it was still registered to Mr. Wetzel of Oriental Limited and Broadway Limited Imports. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:06:03 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Budd doodlebug In a message dated 8/27/02 8:33:22 AM Central Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << The cars were painted Tuscan, and were very "home made" in appearance. >> Was it delivered in stainless and painted tuscan when it was repowered later? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 20:08:27 EDT Subject: [PRR] Indianapolis power, post WW2 --part1_105.1af409ed.2a9d6e7b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/16/02 4:11:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > I'm modeling the Indianapolis Union Station in the 1949-1951 time > > period. Most of my fleet will be passenger cars with K4s and early > > diesel locomotives (plus appropriate equipment for the NYC, Monon and > > B&O who shared the terminal). However, there were several team tracks > > and company freight houses in the vicinity of the Union Station that I'd > > also like to model. So I'll need to know what PRR motive power was used > > for freight and switching in my area (Lines West) for the time period in > > which I'm working. > > > Will have to defer the question on the appropriate freight classes to one > of > our Lines West experts...Rick Tipton, are you listening? ;-) > Actually, I was on vacation when this was posted. I'd guess Vic Paynter in Indy probably has better resources for an answer but... According to the photos taken by my late friend Jack Fravert in Louisville, power in the immediate postwar era was: B6sb C1 H10 J1 K4 in quantity N2sa (USRA as rebuilt in 1926 with Belpaire) and Indy may have also seen the USRA L2's out of Cincinnati. Then as dieselization rolled in, the passenger trains from Chicago to Louisville (through Indy) saw BP-20's. Those on the St. Louis main started out with Alco PA's and other exotica, but quickly lost assignments to EMD E's due to reliability problems. In the 50's, freight steam was replaced by F-3/F-7 consists, and the passenger trains were handled by E-7/E-8. Meantime, steam switchers gave way to FM H-10-44's, and Lima transfer engines worked Hawthorne Yard. In 1953, the two Madison Hill SD-7's showed up based in Indy for maintenance. Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_105.1af409ed.2a9d6e7b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/16/02 4:11:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


> I'm modeling the Indianapolis Union Station in the 1949-1951 time
> period.  Most of my fleet will be passenger cars with K4s and early
> diesel locomotives (plus appropriate equipment for the NYC, Monon and
> B&O who shared the terminal).  However, there were several team tracks
> and company freight houses in the vicinity of the Union Station that I'd
> also like to model.  So I'll need to know what PRR motive power was used
> for freight and switching in my area (Lines West) for the time period in
> which I'm working.
>
Will have to defer the question on the appropriate freight classes to one of
our Lines West experts...Rick Tipton, are you listening?  ;-)


Actually, I was on vacation when this was posted.  I'd guess Vic Paynter in Indy probably has better resources for an answer but...

According to the photos taken by my late friend Jack Fravert in Louisville, power in the immediate postwar era was:

B6sb
C1
H10
J1
K4 in quantity
N2sa (USRA as rebuilt in 1926 with Belpaire)

and Indy may have also seen the USRA L2's out of Cincinnati.

Then as dieselization rolled in, the passenger trains from Chicago to Louisville (through Indy) saw BP-20's.  Those on the St. Louis main started out with Alco PA's and other exotica, but quickly lost assignments to EMD E's due to reliability problems. 

In the 50's, freight steam was replaced by F-3/F-7 consists, and the passenger trains were handled by E-7/E-8.  Meantime, steam switchers gave way to FM H-10-44's, and Lima transfer engines worked Hawthorne Yard.  In 1953, the two Madison Hill SD-7's showed up based in Indy for maintenance.


Rick Tipton
Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana.
Email RickTipton@aol.com
Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please)
Wolf Penn Station
5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive
Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_105.1af409ed.2a9d6e7b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 20:42:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Budd doodlebug --part1_178.da1489e.2a9d7673_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have seen some early photos and drawings that indicate the cars were delivered in natural stainless steel with a black "PENNSYLVANIA" on the letterboards. Chris Baker chrisandbelton2@aol.com --part1_178.da1489e.2a9d7673_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have seen some early photos and drawings that indicate the cars were delivered in natural stainless steel with a black "PENNSYLVANIA" on the letterboards.

Chris Baker
chrisandbelton2@aol.com --part1_178.da1489e.2a9d7673_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 20:39:31 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: More on the Cove derailment From: John Sheets > Hmmm, styrofoam...and they evacuated the schools? That stuff gives off nasty fumes when it burns John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 21:56:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: More on the Cove derailment In a message dated 8/27/02 8:52:22 PM Central Daylight Time, john@mpa-inc.com writes: << That stuff gives off nasty fumes when it burns >> Yes, don't use the Woodland Scenics (and other) hotwires on styrofoam insulation, white, pink, or blue without very good ventilation or respirator. WS advertises their own material as safe---dunno what it is made of. Perhaps it is safe, but is lousy insulation :-). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: More on the Cove derailment Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 14:14:18 -0400 > ><< That stuff gives off nasty fumes when it burns >> > I read no mention of any fire. The decision to send the students home may be a much more practical one. Speaking as a retired teacher, no student will pay attention to anything going on in a classroom with a derailment/clean-up going on right across the road. If that's the school I think it is, the derailment was in full view of probably half the classrooms. At that point, a teacher simply gives up. The principal made the right decision, IMO. Terry Stuart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 00:20:30 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: More on the Cove derailment Greetings to Terry, Bob, Jerry and the List W. Terry Stuart wrote: > ><< That stuff gives off nasty fumes when it burns >> > I read no mention of any fire. No fire: one car loaded with lumber, one with (as noted) styrofoam pellets, one or two tank cars loaded with denatured alcohol. In all, eight cars were involved, according to news reports. The decision to send the students home may > be a much more practical one. True, but not exactly for the reason of distraction. The derailment did take place right across the Route 11-15 highway from Susquenita High School (which has large windows looking out on the ex-PRR Middle Division main line), Middle School, and Elementary School. This is what the Susquenita School District officials told reporters: The highway and traffic patterns were so disrupted by that point that had they waited to dismiss until the normal 3 or 3:30 quitting time, the school buses would have been so delayed by detours and congestion (just *try* driving on that stretch of 11-15 any time after 4 pm to the end of the evening rush hour!) that some kids would have been getting home at 7 o'clock at night. As noted, all of the district's schools are at the same campus so bus access and circulation would have been a nightmare. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:53:02 +0200 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] Budd doodlebug Here in Europe, Michelin did promote using rubber tires on railrod equipment since the late 20s. They built some self-propelled rail cars for French railways, called "Michelines" (Maerklin used to have one in HO some years ago). They built also some 1-m-gauge cars for use in French colonies in Africa. I have read several articles on the Michelines and remember to have seen a photo of one built in collaboration with Budd. I will try to dig it out. After the war, Micheline proposed tire trucks for stainless steel ("Inox") equipment of the French National Railway SNCF. They had a whole Michelin train, each truck with 5 axles and 10 rubber tires (so there is some redundancy...). Also the Swiss Federal Railway SBB made tests with those tire trucks under their lightweight steel equipment. Today, rubber tires are used on parts of the Paris Metro, however, they have an additional concrete track beside the rails. The reason for using rubber tires in France are IMHO: - Smoother ride through a kind of extra suspension - Michelin being quite a strong company in the French economy and politics, looking for other fields of a market. Happy rails, Burkhard Sanner ndbprr@att.net schrieb: > Budd made a stainless steel fluted self propelled car > with rubber tires that the PRR tried on the Norristown > branch. Trains had a brief article on it many years > ago. It was a disaster because it kept getting flat > tires. Does anybody know of any good pictures or > drawings that I could use to build one? Thanks, Norm > Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 06:19:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: More on the Cove derailment From: Jerry Britton On 8/28/02 12:20 AM, "Dan Cupper" wrote: > Greetings to Terry, Bob, Jerry and the List > > W. Terry Stuart wrote: >> >> << That stuff gives off nasty fumes when it burns >> >> I read no mention of any fire. > > No fire: one car loaded with lumber, one with (as noted) styrofoam > pellets, one or two tank cars loaded with denatured alcohol. In all, > eight cars were involved, according to news reports. > > The decision to send the students home may >> be a much more practical one. > > > True, but not exactly for the reason of distraction. The derailment did > take place right across the Route 11-15 highway from Susquenita High > School (which has large windows looking out on the ex-PRR Middle > Division main line), Middle School, and Elementary School. This is what > the Susquenita School District officials told reporters: The highway and > traffic patterns were so disrupted by that point that had they waited to > dismiss until the normal 3 or 3:30 quitting time, the school buses would > have been so delayed by detours and congestion (just *try* driving on > that stretch of 11-15 any time after 4 pm to the end of the evening rush > hour!) that some kids would have been getting home at 7 o'clock at > night. As noted, all of the district's schools are at the same campus so > bus access and circulation would have been a nightmare. > But the other half of it is, they closed 11/15. So as a working parent you learn that the school district is sending your kids home but you have no practical way to get home yourself! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 06:26:20 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: Cove Derailment From: Jerry Britton We have a NS Harrisburg East dispatcher on the HarrisRailFan list who reported the following to me direct... > Train was the !4G, derailment began at the 6th car thru the 14th car, > a covered hopper loaded with styrofoam pellets split open, This can cause an > inhalant hazard from the dust generated. The auto's involved belonged to > fisherman that walked down over the bank to fish. (not too happy when the > found out they were tresspassing where they parked their cars) Hulcher > arrived on scene late morning, by 2pm tracks 1 and 2 main were open, but > signal system was still out. Additional comment: I don't know the exact spot where the cars were parked, but I often park at the large pullover area opposite the Cove Diner. I'd bet the front bumper of my car is no more than 15' from the Controlled Siding (nee PRR Track One). However, the "No Tresspassing" signs are just outside the ballasted area, of which I am outside of. That tells me that the pullover area is not tresspassing and is not NS property. My comment's intent is not to challenge NS's property bounds, but it sounds like maybe their signs are on telephone poles for convenience sake but are not actually on the property line. I'm not sure how this would unfold were a case to go to court involving a railfan that was parked on what appeared to not be NS property and was not doing any harm to the railroad. I would hope under such a circumstance the NS police would politely ask them to move and that would be the end of it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 07:24:29 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR: Pulling power Greg, From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." My question is what manufacturer of headlights(12volt?) should I use to put into P2K FA-1 units to get rid of the LED they have (for DCC) operation? I heard a few theory's on this. The LED pre-installed is just not bright enough. I have not seen the "insides" of the Erie-Builts but I have several P2K diesels and they all had light bulbs. Is this something new? LifeLike uses a bulb that is not a 12 Volt bulb and the diode network they use for directional and constant lighting drops the voltage to close to 2 volts. When you convert the locos to DCC the bulbs get VERY bright for just a short time. Stewart diesels and Athearn Genisis steam locos both use Yellow LEDs for their headlights but the Yellow LED makes the headlight look like an oil lamp. I changed the LED in my VO1000 to a "White" LED I bought from Digi-Key for $3.00. It made a dramatic change. I can now use the loco as a weed burner or use it to light up my yard for night photography. I'm sure there is a happy medium somewhere. Good luck, Nick Kulp http://www.igateway.com X-SpamDetect: low: Multiple spaces ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 07:56:40 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: More on the Cove derailment >><< That stuff gives off nasty fumes when it burns >> > I read no mention of any fire. Once a derailment takes place 'anything' can (and has....) happened. Securing the area, & getting 'high value' risks out of the way seems apropos. I suspect its SOP... best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 08:52:10 -0400 Subject: [PRR] ANNOUNCEMENT -- New List on DCC Dispatching From: Jerry Britton (Please excuse this semi-off topic post that is likely of interest to a subset of subscribers.) I am pleased to announce a new list, TheConductor, which is for discussion of the numerous DCC dispatching products offered by KAM Industries. Their products include Train Server, Engine Commander, Classic Panel, Layout Commander, and Computer Dispatcher Pro. The latter is a DCC version of the actual software used for CTC on 21 Class I railroads! This list is independent of KAM Industries and thus provides an unbiased forum. I'll point out, however, that the list is "blessed" by KAM and there will soon be links on their web pages to the list page. The list is not only for registered users of KAM's products, but also for prospective buyers who want to research the product and ask pre-purchase questions. Users of other dispatching systems are also encouraged to join, whether to "lurk" or otherwise participate. For more information or to subscribe, please visit the list's home page at http://lists.dsop.com As with any new list, traffic will be light until we get enough subscribers to start effective conversation. Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Budd doodlebug Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 13:03:08 +0000 There are a couple of rapid transit systems in the US ( subway, metro, tube, etc.)that operate on pneumatic rubber tires on concrete tracks. They have a flanged wheel as I recall that is fractions of an inch above the rail and the flange is used to steer the cars. In the event of a tire failure the metal wheel takes over. Purpose is to provide a smoother ride. I think Washington DC and maybe LA systems are this type. I am sure somebody who knows will correct me. I think a model of the Budd Michelin car would be a unique addition to my PRR that could be built from the sides of a fluted car fairly easily. There is no question the car as built was a dismal failure with numerous breakdowns due to tire problems. > Here in Europe, Michelin did promote using rubber tires > on railrod equipment since the late 20s. They built some > self-propelled rail cars for French railways, called > "Michelines" (Maerklin used to have one in HO some > years ago). > They built also some 1-m-gauge cars for use in > French colonies in Africa. > I have read several articles on the Michelines > and remember to have seen a photo of one > built in collaboration with Budd. I will try to > dig it out. > After the war, Micheline proposed tire trucks > for stainless steel ("Inox") equipment of the > French National Railway SNCF. They had > a whole Michelin train, each truck with 5 axles > and 10 rubber tires (so there is some > redundancy...). Also the Swiss Federal Railway > SBB made tests with those tire trucks under > their lightweight steel equipment. > > Today, rubber tires are used on parts of the > Paris Metro, however, they have an additional > concrete track beside the rails. > > The reason for using rubber tires in France > are IMHO: > - Smoother ride through a kind of extra suspension > - Michelin being quite a strong company in the > French economy and politics, looking for other > fields of a market. > > Happy rails, > > Burkhard Sanner > > > ndbprr@att.net schrieb: > > > Budd made a stainless steel fluted self propelled car > > with rubber tires that the PRR tried on the Norristown > > branch. Trains had a brief article on it many years > > ago. It was a disaster because it kept getting flat > > tires. Does anybody know of any good pictures or > > drawings that I could use to build one? Thanks, Norm > > Bell > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:19:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Budd doodlebug --part1_135.1398cc30.2a9e27f6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/28/2002 9:10:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, ndbprr@att.net writes: (Anent rubber-tired transit cars): > I think > Washington DC and maybe LA systems are this type. I am > sure somebody who knows will correct me. Montreal and some of the Mexico City lines are of this type. DC and LA are both steel wheel on steel rail. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_135.1398cc30.2a9e27f6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/28/2002 9:10:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, ndbprr@att.net writes:

(Anent rubber-tired transit cars):

I think
Washington DC and maybe LA systems are this type. I am
sure somebody who knows will correct me.


Montreal and some of the Mexico City lines are of this type.
DC and LA are both steel wheel on steel rail.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_135.1398cc30.2a9e27f6_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Budd doodlebug Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:46:11 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C24E77.BE37D500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are also airport transit systems that use rubber tired vehicles = between terminals. Atlanta and Orlando come to mind. Bruce mentioned the = only North American subway systems. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: BBReynolds@aol.com=20 To: ndbprr@att.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 9:19 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Budd doodlebug In a message dated 8/28/2002 9:10:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, = ndbprr@att.net writes:=20 (Anent rubber-tired transit cars):=20 I think=20 Washington DC and maybe LA systems are this type. I am=20 sure somebody who knows will correct me.=20 Montreal and some of the Mexico City lines are of this type.=20 DC and LA are both steel wheel on steel rail.=20 Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C24E77.BE37D500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There are also airport transit systems that use = rubber tired=20 vehicles between terminals. Atlanta and Orlando come to mind. Bruce = mentioned=20 the only North American subway systems.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 BBReynolds@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 28, = 2002 9:19=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Budd = doodlebug

In a = message dated=20 8/28/2002 9:10:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, ndbprr@att.net writes: =

(Anent=20 rubber-tired transit cars):

I think
Washington DC and maybe LA systems are this = type. I=20 am
sure somebody who knows will correct me.

Montreal and some of = the Mexico=20 City lines are of this type.
DC and LA are both steel wheel on = steel rail.=20

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside = PA=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C24E77.BE37D500-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:46:53 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Patriot News Article on Cove Derailment From: Jerry Britton The web site for the Harrisburg Patriot News has an extensive story on yesterday's derailment at Cove (MP 116). You can read it at http://www.pennlive.com/news/patriotnews/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_stand ard.xsl?/base/news/103052701628370.xml Some local residents are complaining about the proximity of the tracks to their houses...and the fact that there is no protection between the tracks and route 11/15. Gee, wasn't the railroad there FIRST!!! Idiots! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:59:48 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] RS-3 Antennas I just (almost) finished a pair of HO MDC models of Alco RS-3s in PRR configuration. I would like to install the roof-top trainphone antenna, but CalScale does not appear to make a kit for these. They only list RS-1, RS-11, and RS12s. Does anyone know if another mfr makes them? -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 10:02:53 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Budd doodlebug --part1_1ba.5840861.2a9e320d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/28/2002 9:48:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: > There are also airport transit systems that use rubber tired vehicles > between terminals. Atlanta and Orlando come to mind. Bruce mentioned the > only North American subway systems. > > This is getting off-topic, but the subject was the Michelin-style combination rubber tire/steel wheel, as seen in the Budd doodlebug on the PRR: in North America, that system is used only in Montreal and Mexico City. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_1ba.5840861.2a9e320d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/28/2002 9:48:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes:


There are also airport transit systems that use rubber tired vehicles between terminals. Atlanta and Orlando come to mind. Bruce mentioned the only North American subway systems.



This is getting off-topic, but the subject was the Michelin-style combination
rubber tire/steel wheel, as seen in the Budd doodlebug on the PRR: in North
America, that system is used only in Montreal and Mexico City.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_1ba.5840861.2a9e320d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian L. Brooks" Subject: RE: [PRR] RS-3 Antennas Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 10:31:34 -0500 Andy, It used to be Cal-Scale part 190-401. Have these been discontinued? Brian -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andrew S. Miller Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 9:00 AM To: ndbprr@att.net Cc: PRR-Talk; PRR Modeling Subject: [PRR] RS-3 Antennas I just (almost) finished a pair of HO MDC models of Alco RS-3s in PRR configuration. I would like to install the roof-top trainphone antenna, but CalScale does not appear to make a kit for these. They only list RS-1, RS-11, and RS12s. Does anyone know if another mfr makes them? -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] PRR Drawings and misc. Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 10:11:52 -0500 Just an FYI,I found some original drawings on eBay for brake hardware and gauges. Search by seller since items are in multiple categories, seller name = wburket12st Some photos and other items too. Patrick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 11:17:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Drawings and misc. From: Jerry Britton On 8/28/02 11:11 AM, yunz@verizon.net (yunz@verizon.net) wrote: > Just an FYI,I found some original drawings on eBay for brake hardware and > gauges. Search by seller since items are in multiple categories, seller name = > wburket12st > > Some photos and other items too. > I just snagged a 1923 Passenger Equipment Roster! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] RS-3 Antennas Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 10:27:26 -0500 In the past Bowser (Cal-Scale) has manufactured the trainphone antenna for the RS-3. I own at least two or three of these kits, and have installed them on two of my Atlas units. While not now manufactured, I suspect the kits might be still available at hobby shops which stock such parts. -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 9:00 AM To: ndbprr@att.net Cc: PRR-Talk; PRR Modeling Subject: [PRR] RS-3 Antennas I just (almost) finished a pair of HO MDC models of Alco RS-3s in PRR configuration. I would like to install the roof-top trainphone antenna, but CalScale does not appear to make a kit for these. They only list RS-1, RS-11, and RS12s. Does anyone know if another mfr makes them? -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:02:10 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] RS-3 Antennas Thanx to all who pointed me to the part number. While I could not find them in the current catalog, they do appear on the website and are show as "In Stock"! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Cadwell, Marvin L" wrote: > In the past Bowser (Cal-Scale) has manufactured the trainphone antenna for > the RS-3. I own at least two or three of these kits, and have installed > them on two of my Atlas units. While not now manufactured, I suspect the > kits might be still available at hobby shops which stock such parts. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] > Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 9:00 AM > To: ndbprr@att.net > Cc: PRR-Talk; PRR Modeling > Subject: [PRR] RS-3 Antennas > > I just (almost) finished a pair of HO MDC models of Alco RS-3s in PRR > configuration. I would like to install the roof-top trainphone antenna, but > CalScale does not appear to make a kit for these. They only list RS-1, > RS-11, > and RS12s. Does anyone know if another mfr makes them? > -- > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org\ -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Charles Ring CSRE CBNT W3NU Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:14:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: More on the Cove derailment davep wrote: > >><< That stuff gives off nasty fumes when it burns >> > > > I read no mention of any fire. > > Once a derailment takes place 'anything' > can (and has....) happened. Securing the area, > & getting 'high value' risks out of the way > seems apropos. I suspect its SOP... > > best > dwp Another factor is that schools nowadays have lawsuit on the mind every moment, even more than we all do. Schools now are a very strange world where otherwise unthinkable decisions are made all the time. Re fire, and re distraction, in 1962 I was in my 5th grade classroom when the worst fire in the town's history raged one block away. Not only was there no evacuation, but kids who looked out the window at the fire got their knuckles rapped. Never a happy medium. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 11:27:14 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Pulling power From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" The cars are weighted, although not completely up to NMRA recommendations. As long as they stay on the rails, I ain't gonna mess with weights. The 3% has a slight curve and at the top, where it drops to a 1.5% or so it goes into a fairly sharp curve. Once out of the curve the track is still up hill for about 3 feet. So, the engines have to do some pulling. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." >To: "Andrew S. Miller" , "Donald E. Harper, Jr" >Cc: "PRR-Talk" >Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR: Pulling power >Date: Tue, 27 Aug, 2002, 8:36 > > Are the cars NMRA weighted? Is the track tangent or on a curve.? I do > believe they can pull many cars. I have an A-B-A set of P1K Erie builts and > pulled a 65 car train over a friends layout with no problems. 1 area of > the layout has a 3% grade with an S curve. They do pull well. When it comes > to diesels, P2K puts out a great product. > > My question is what manufacturer of headlights(12volt?) should I use to put > into P2K FA-1 units to get rid of the LED they have (for DCC) operation? I > heard a few theory's on this. The LED pre-installed is just not bright > enough. > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andrew S. > Miller > Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 9:18 AM > To: Donald E. Harper, Jr > Cc: PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: Pulling power > > Don, > > How many of the 72 hopper fit on the 3% grade at the same time? That's > about 36 > feet of train! I know Galveston is a large club and I'd love to see it some > day. > My son is living in Houston so its not beyond reason, even though I'm a > Bostonian. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > "Donald E. Harper, Jr" wrote: > >> The Proto Erie Builts are great engines. I have my duo pulling 72 hopper >> cars and a cabin car around the Galveston Model RR Club layout, including > up >> 2 and 3% grades. The engines have so much pull I think they will handle > 100 >> cars. >> >> Operating this long train is great. You can actually see the slack run in >> and out while starting up and stopping. >> >> Don Harper >> Texas A&M Marine Lab >> 5007 Avenue U >> Galveston, TX 77551 >> 409/740-4540 >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > -- > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] RS-3 Antennas Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 17:38:44 +0100 Andy, Cal Scale do an RS3 antenna part 190-401 Patrick Grace www.prr.org.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" To: Cc: "PRR-Talk" ; "PRR Modeling" Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 2:59 PM Subject: [PRR] RS-3 Antennas > I just (almost) finished a pair of HO MDC models of Alco RS-3s in PRR > configuration. I would like to install the roof-top trainphone antenna, but > CalScale does not appear to make a kit for these. They only list RS-1, RS-11, > and RS12s. Does anyone know if another mfr makes them? > -- > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:44:34 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Traffic on the New Portage Branch From: Jerry Britton On my layout, at the east entrance to the tunnels at Tunnel Hill, I was planning to extend the two tracks to the New Portage Branch to the edge of the layout, leaving them non-functional. Bill Lewis was over a few nights ago and, like always, said "well make it work, somehow!" My layout will not be lacking for activity, but I am revisiting the dead/living status of my New Portage Branch. Along those lines, I need some feedback... "Harrumph I" indicates that the eastbound track (that would be the higher one that comes off of track 1 of the main as it exits the Portage tunnel) was removed circa 1955 after being used as a siding for some time. Okay, so I model it and fill it with weeds! "Harrumph" further indicates the westbound track (which joins track three just before entering the Allegheny tunnel) was removed in 1981. I'm guessing this happened just before/as a result of construction of the new Route 22 highway up the Sugar Run valley. The text indicates that coal off the branch was headed WEST, including to Johnstown. Can anyone confirm this? (Photos show that some of the mines on this branch were immediately east of the connection to the main line.) I know most of the Cresson Branch coal came east. The Irvona Branch coal entered the main westbound. I had always assumed that it did then what it often does now...stop, run the power around, and head east. What else can anyone tell me about typical traffic on the New Portage? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:06:19 -0400 Subject: [PRR] P. E. Gamber From: Gary Rowe I will see my 80+-year-old uncle this weekend, Paul Gamber, who worked in passenger service out of Harrisburg. I would like to tell him if there are friends of his on this list since he now has a computer and could be in touch. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:59:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Traffic on the New Portage Branch On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Jerry Britton wrote: > "Harrumph" further indicates the westbound track (which joins track three > just before entering the Allegheny tunnel) was removed in 1981. I'm guessing > this happened just before/as a result of construction of the new Route 22 > highway up the Sugar Run valley. I haven't found documentation that that project began that early yet, but probably mostly due to not looking in the right place. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:18:05 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Ebensburg Junction From: Jerry Britton Anyone know of published web photos of Ebensburg Junction? This is the junction of the Black Lick Extension with the Cresson Branch, just west of Cresson. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAMMP236@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 17:12:11 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re Portage Branch --part1_108.17153988.2a9e96ab_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Both the Eastbound and Westbound tracks of the New Portage Branch lasted untill their removal in the 80s. --part1_108.17153988.2a9e96ab_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Both the Eastbound and Westbound tracks of the New Portage Branch lasted untill their removal in the 80s. --part1_108.17153988.2a9e96ab_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] Traffic on the New Portage Branch Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 18:11:40 -0400 Jerry- I think you have the right idea with the 2 tracks leading off the benchwork. A friend of mine is modeling Altoona to Cresson, including the tunnels. It looks excellent, with the 2 tracks coming in from off the layout and with 2 huge scratch built blowers to blow the smoke through the tunnel. To keep your layout prototypical with Horseshoe(if you are modeling it) I would not deviate from your plan. If you keep changing while the project is in motion, the overall project will suffer. Good Luck Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 2:45 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Traffic on the New Portage Branch On my layout, at the east entrance to the tunnels at Tunnel Hill, I was planning to extend the two tracks to the New Portage Branch to the edge of the layout, leaving them non-functional. Bill Lewis was over a few nights ago and, like always, said "well make it work, somehow!" My layout will not be lacking for activity, but I am revisiting the dead/living status of my New Portage Branch. Along those lines, I need some feedback... "Harrumph I" indicates that the eastbound track (that would be the higher one that comes off of track 1 of the main as it exits the Portage tunnel) was removed circa 1955 after being used as a siding for some time. Okay, so I model it and fill it with weeds! "Harrumph" further indicates the westbound track (which joins track three just before entering the Allegheny tunnel) was removed in 1981. I'm guessing this happened just before/as a result of construction of the new Route 22 highway up the Sugar Run valley. The text indicates that coal off the branch was headed WEST, including to Johnstown. Can anyone confirm this? (Photos show that some of the mines on this branch were immediately east of the connection to the main line.) I know most of the Cresson Branch coal came east. The Irvona Branch coal entered the main westbound. I had always assumed that it did then what it often does now...stop, run the power around, and head east. What else can anyone tell me about typical traffic on the New Portage? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 18:50:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Traffic on the New Portage Branch --part1_161.13076c98.2a9eadb8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry. The sw to the eastbound "PS" sdg remained until after the retirement of the New Portage Br. This sdg remained as there was someone interested loading coal on the short sdg as it was cut off when the stone arch bridge that supported it over Sugar Run road was removed when PennDOT moved Sugar Run road for the new Rt 22 to be built. The sw off #3 track was removed sometime after 1981 when the New Portage was abandoned. The state helped push the abandonment through its approval process as this would save them millions of dollars by not building a bridge over tracks that were no longer going to be used. Coal from the Irvona would come off the branch and go westward on 5 west,along side then #4 main, or go north up the Cresson Br. to "PLUG" in the PARK yd, then proceed east after running around the train. If I recall you are doing the time period around 1954. You could keep the sw off #1 at "SF" and go down the PS sdg. Hide the track and make it loop around so as to return to #3 track. Pat McKinney --part1_161.13076c98.2a9eadb8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry.
           The sw to the eastbound "PS" sdg remained until after the retirement of the New Portage Br. This sdg remained as there was someone interested loading coal on the short sdg as it was cut off when the stone arch bridge that supported it over Sugar Run road was removed when PennDOT moved Sugar Run road for the new Rt 22 to be built. The sw off #3 track was removed sometime after 1981 when the New Portage was abandoned. The state helped push the abandonment through its approval process as this would save them millions of dollars by not building a bridge over tracks that were no longer going to be used. 
    Coal from the Irvona would come off the branch and go westward on 5 west,along side then #4 main, or go north up the Cresson Br. to "PLUG" in the PARK yd, then proceed east after running around the train.
    If I recall you are doing the time period around 1954. You could keep the sw off #1 at "SF" and go down the PS sdg. Hide the track and make it loop around so as to return to #3 track.

Pat McKinney --part1_161.13076c98.2a9eadb8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 19:09:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Traffic on the New Portage Branch Hello Jerry, If you model the Steam era, don't "weed" the siding. That didn't happen unit late PRR,early PC days. The "New Portage Sec. Trk." which ducks under Trks. 1 and 2 was the track most of the trains would use. In the 1940s and 50s, there was a "Route Indicator" signal which lit up "3" or "4" for westbounds off the branch. I took photos the SF interlocking back in the mid 1970s from Tunnel Hill. I think by that time Ore trains stayed on the mainline. The track didn't look like it could handle a 10,000 ton ore train. Conrail was still running a once a week "junk train" west out of Hollidaysburg when the line closed. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 19:20:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Traffic on the New Portage Branch --part1_4d.2330c273.2a9eb4da_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry. One more item. The remaining coke ovens that are still visible would have need a way to move the coke they produced. I am thinking that this would also have been loaded somewhere in the same area that the coal was loaded,although this is way to early for you to model. There were areas still visible where coal was loaded from spilled coal,the remains of timber loading docks,the ground contours up until the double stack project filled almost all of the area up from the rock and dirt spoils of the tunnels and changed other ground contours. There were two remaining coal mines still listed in the 1945 CT 1000 C. The Bennington "B" Coll. at MP 46.4 & Tunnel Coll. at MP 46.5. Both were the Argyle Coal Co. Hard to say if they were still producing in 1954. Pat --part1_4d.2330c273.2a9eb4da_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry.
        One more item. The remaining coke ovens that are still visible would have need a way to move the coke they produced. I am thinking that this would also have been loaded somewhere in the same area that the coal was loaded,although this is way to early for you to model. There were areas still visible where coal was loaded from spilled coal,the remains of timber loading docks,the ground contours up until the double stack project filled almost all of the area up from the rock and dirt spoils of the tunnels and changed other ground contours.
   There were two remaining coal mines still listed in the 1945 CT 1000 C. The Bennington "B" Coll. at MP 46.4 & Tunnel Coll. at MP 46.5. Both were the Argyle Coal Co. Hard to say if they were still producing in 1954.

Pat --part1_4d.2330c273.2a9eb4da_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 19:27:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Traffic on the New Portage Branch Hey Pat,,,,,,, I've always heard stories about PennDot building a bridge over the New Portage Branch. I thought it might have been an "urban legend". The new US22 would have had to be much steeper to clear the tracks. Was US22 designed during the Penn Central era when the railroad wanted to keep the New Portage? Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:29:50 -0300 From: A Samostie Subject: [PRR] PRR Catenary Structures on Secondary Lines in North Jersey Dear Group, I have joined PRR-Talk to find answers to a few long-standing questions I've had... this is a rare venture outside of DL&W/Erie/EL subject matter for me, so if any of these questions seem obvious to PRR experts, please bear with me. I have a number of questions about ex-PRR secondary lines in North Jersey. To my knowledge, the only PRR electrified lines in North Jersey were the Northeast Corridor itself, the Newark Freight Bypass and the NY&LB (as far as South Amboy, now Long Branch). Were there others? I have seen catenary-style support structures along secondary lines that I don't believe were ever electrified. For example, there are catenary-style structures at CR's Brown's Yard along Middlesex County Road 516 in Old Bridge / Browntown. I'm guessing the track parelleling County Road 516 was ex-PRR, but I'm not sure. Was my guess correct? Did it connect to the NY&LB at Matawan? Why the catenary support structures in these areas? Did the PRR plan to electrify the secondary freight lines? Were the catenary-style towers used in place of regular lineside poles just because they were "mass produced" and readily available? Did other non-electrified railroads in North Jersey use PRR-style catenary structures for some reason? (I'm thinking of PRR influence on the Lehigh Valley and CNJ). On previous trips, I've also noticed catenary supports above abandoned rights-of-way that seem to wander across the Jersey Meadows "to nowhere." Where did these lines go? (N.B.: These appeared to be PRR-style towers, not DL&W style). I've even seen catenary-style towers parallel to NY440 (West Shore Expwy.) on Staten Island. Now, I know PRR at one time had a joint interest with the B&O in the Staten Island lines... but catenary supports on Staten Island???? Hope you can explain. Cheers, Alan Samostie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 19:58:45 -0400 From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Catenary Structures on Secondary Lines in North On Wed, Aug 28, 2002 at 08:29:50PM -0300, A Samostie wrote: > > I have a number of questions about ex-PRR secondary lines in North > Jersey. To my knowledge, the only PRR electrified lines in North Jersey > were the Northeast Corridor itself, the Newark Freight Bypass and the > NY&LB (as far as South Amboy, now Long Branch). Were there others? A, one that I can think off immediately was a portion of the Jamesburg Branch, which ran east from MIDWAY tower on the main line (Monmouth Jct., north of Princeton) to Jamestown, where this branch joined the Amboy Secondary Track. >From there, electrification proceeded N (not sure what the TT direction was) on the Amboy Secondary all the way to where this track joined the NY&LB in South Amboy. So, along with the NY&LB and the Perth Amboy & Woodbridge branch, one had an electrified bypass around the PRR mainline. Despite taking most of their catenary down in the mid-1980s, Conrail left the catenary on this branch in place until after 1990 (anyone have an exact date)? > I have seen catenary-style support structures along secondary lines that > I don't believe were ever electrified. For example, there are > catenary-style structures at CR's Brown's Yard along Middlesex County > Road 516 in Old Bridge / Browntown. There was a Block-Limit Station on the Amboy Secondary called "OB", which I suspect is Old Bridge, though I'm not positive. I can't cross-reference against Cty. 516 for you, though. There were, in fact, PRR-style catenary structures in various locations that carried only high tension lines and no catenary. > Did other non-electrified railroads in North Jersey use PRR-style > catenary structures for some reason? > (I'm thinking of PRR influence on the Lehigh Valley and CNJ). The Reading's cat poles around Philly are somewhat similar to the PRR's in that they are built from I-beams. However, closer inspection will reveal that the types of electric lines, their placement on the poles, etc., are all different. One of the truly neat things that the railfan has in the eastern Pa. / N.J. area, and that I sorely miss since moving out here to the Midwest, is the variety of RoW styles. Combine it with signal styles, and you could often quickly identify the railroad whose RoW you were crossing on some road bridge. Where I am not there was much less of that, and Merger Mania has reduced even more the amount of distinctiveness there once was. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 23:01:48 -0400 From: bearcreekwest@netscape.net Subject: [PRR] eBay item This item is on eBay for those who might be interested. CUSTOM BRASS PRR LIMA-HAMILTON CENTER CAB EBay Item # 1761537462 Ends : Sep-01-02 08:57:39 PDT __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:05:01 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Traffic on the New Portage Branch From: "Douglas Nelson" Jerry and list: The New Portage route (Muleshoe), combined with the Hollidaysburg & Petersburg Branch formed a bypass around congested Altoona. In your era of mid-1950s, mixed freights and ore trains sometimes used this routing for westbound trains. I'm not sure how much coal was in this area, but imported ore was probably headed westbound to Johnstown and Pittsburgh. With all the coal around Johnstown from the South Fork Branch, I'm not sure where coal would come from to travel westbound over the New Portage Branch. The Hollidaysburg & Petersburg Branch was relatively busy in the 1950's. Most or all of this traffic must have continued up the New Portage route because I don't believe the Hollidaysburg Branch had a westbound connection to the Main Line at Alto. Doug Nelson. ---------- >From: Jerry Britton >To: PRR-Talk LIST >Subject: [PRR] Traffic on the New Portage Branch >Date: Wed, Aug 28, 2002, 11:44 AM > > On my layout, at the east entrance to the tunnels at Tunnel Hill, I was > planning to extend the two tracks to the New Portage Branch to the edge of > the layout, leaving them non-functional. > > Bill Lewis was over a few nights ago and, like always, said "well make it > work, somehow!" > > My layout will not be lacking for activity, but I am revisiting the > dead/living status of my New Portage Branch. Along those lines, I need some > feedback... > > "Harrumph I" indicates that the eastbound track (that would be the higher > one that comes off of track 1 of the main as it exits the Portage tunnel) > was removed circa 1955 after being used as a siding for some time. Okay, so > I model it and fill it with weeds! > > "Harrumph" further indicates the westbound track (which joins track three > just before entering the Allegheny tunnel) was removed in 1981. I'm guessing > this happened just before/as a result of construction of the new Route 22 > highway up the Sugar Run valley. > > The text indicates that coal off the branch was headed WEST, including to > Johnstown. Can anyone confirm this? (Photos show that some of the mines on > this branch were immediately east of the connection to the main line.) > > I know most of the Cresson Branch coal came east. The Irvona Branch coal > entered the main westbound. I had always assumed that it did then what it > often does now...stop, run the power around, and head east. > > What else can anyone tell me about typical traffic on the New Portage? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Keith Pomroy" Subject: RE: [PRR] Patriot News Article on Cove Derailment Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 01:58:41 -0400 Two problems here: the idiots among the public who know nothing about the infrastructure that surrounds them and Norfolk Southern, which has been abysmal at public relations. NS had better wake up and realize that it lives in a political world, a world that can turn very quickly against it and crush it. Yet, the company has not made even minimal attempts at local public relations in Pennsylvania or down here in Virginia, thinking that its revenue comes only from large, distant shippers. Well, those shippers may be nice guys, but politicians will respond to voters' concerns and can easily re-regulate railroads and thereby make it too expensive for those shippers to use NS or any other railroad for that matter (or even operate in the U.S.). So, if the American railroad industry is going to be anything more than four or five coal conveyor belts radiating out of Wyoming, the industry might consider spending a little effort at putting itself in the public eye in a positive way. (And enlisting railfans in the effort.) BTW, half the guys in my office think that all railroads ought to be torn up-they are under the misconception that they are all government owned, money-losing and dangerous anachronisms. Not a pretty sample of political opinion. Sorry to sound scary, but that's the way the layperson is thinking, with all the recent news. PRR content: like the canary in the coal mine, it was the PRR's difficulties after WW2 that heralded and generated (in large part) the problems leading to the formation of Amtrak and Conrail and the ultimate emergence of four mega-systems in the U.S. -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2002 9:47 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST; Conrail-Talk LIST; Harrisburg Rail Fan List Subject: [PRR] Patriot News Article on Cove Derailment The web site for the Harrisburg Patriot News has an extensive story on yesterday's derailment at Cove (MP 116). You can read it at http://www.pennlive.com/news/patriotnews/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_stand ard.xsl?/base/news/103052701628370.xml Some local residents are complaining about the proximity of the tracks to their houses...and the fact that there is no protection between the tracks and route 11/15. Gee, wasn't the railroad there FIRST!!! Idiots! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 06:17:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Traffic on the New Portage Branch From: Jerry Britton On 8/29/02 12:05 AM, "Douglas Nelson" wrote: > The New Portage route (Muleshoe), combined with the Hollidaysburg & > Petersburg Branch formed a bypass around congested Altoona. In your era of > mid-1950s, mixed freights and ore trains sometimes used this routing for > westbound trains. I'm not sure how much coal was in this area, but imported > ore was probably headed westbound to Johnstown and Pittsburgh. With all the > coal around Johnstown from the South Fork Branch, I'm not sure where coal > would come from to travel westbound over the New Portage Branch. > Pat McKinney confirms that even the coal from the Irvona Branch, which enters the main headed westbound at Cresson, normally heads east. There is no suggestion that coal heads west OVER the New Portage Branch, but rather just the coal that originates on the branch very near the summit. And that source is "Harrumph I", so it's not real credible. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 08:25:14 -0400 Subject: [PRR] "Capitol West" Excursion Slated - Oct 5-6 (LONG) From: Jerry Britton The Harrisburg Chapter, NRHS is selling tickets for a train excursion from Harrisburg to Altoona, Pa. and return on October 5, 2002. The excursion will feature coach seating, optional, extra-fare seating on a private car, a ride around the world-famous Horseshoe Curve, and a train pulled by a pair of immaculately restored, vintage passenger diesel locomotives. There is also the opportunity to extend your visit to two days, with a train ride to Pittsburgh and an overnight stay at the Westin Hotel included. The chartered train, called the "Capitol West", will depart the Harrisburg Amtrak Station at 7:45 a.m. After a non-stop run to Altoona, where additional passengers may board, the train will climb the Allegheny front, traversing majestic Horseshoe Curve en route. After tunneling under the crest at Gallitzin, the train will make a loop and return to Altoona for detraining of all passengers at 12:15 p.m. Riders will then be able to participate in all the activities of RailFest -- a celebration of Altoona railroad heritage. A barbeque chicken dinner will be available Saturday to all RailFest attendees. Passengers returning to Harrisburg Saturday night will travel by chartered buses boarding at the Museum. The excursion will go to Pittsburgh Saturday night and park in the Amtrak station. Passengers choosing this option will stay at the Westin Hotel, within easy walking distance of the station. On Sunday, October 6, they will reboard the train for the return to Altoona. At the conclusion of RailFest on Sunday, they will ride the train back to Harrisburg. The locomotives for the excursion are privately owned by the Juniata Terminal Company and are restored to their original Pennsylvania Railroad colors and numbers. They were built in the 1950's and were last used by Conrail to power its executive train. The coach cars for the train are air-conditioned and restroom equipped. There is no food service available on the train, but guests are welcome to bring their own food along. If you lean toward riding in style, two private cars -- the "Kitchi Gammi" (seating 20) and the "Dover Harbor" (seating 24) -- are your answer. You will have seats on these cars for the trip around Horseshoe Curve and, if staying two days, to Pittsburgh and back to Harrisburg. RailFest 2002 is a two-day event centered around the Railroaders Memorial Museum in altoona, which is reached by a footbridge from the train station. The museum houses numerous exhibits and displays of the rich railroading tradition of Altoona and its citizens. Free shuttle bus service to the Horseshoe Curve is included with the ticket price. RailFest admission also includes free entry to the Allegheny Portage Railroad National Historic Site and the newly-opened Staple Bend Tunnel, both of which must be reached by car from Altoona. Fares for the "Capitol West" are $100 each for coach seats and $200 each for private car seats for Saturday. Included in the cost is the train fare to and around the Curve, admission to RailFest, the chicken dinner, the shuttle bus in Altoona, and the bus (Saturday) back to Harrisburg. Children under the age of two sitting on the lap of a parent or guardian are free. Fares for the extension to Pittsburgh are $250 for coach and $350 for private car. This fare includes the entire train trip, RailFest, shuttle bus, chicken dinner on Saturday, and the hotel room. Fares are also available for passengers who want to stay overnight in Altoona Saturday and return on the excursion train. The departure from Altoona on Sunday only is scheduled for 5:30 p.m. (tentative) and arrival in Harrisburg should be approximately 8:30 p.m. Tickets may be ordered from Harrisburg Chapter NRHS, RailFest Trip, 637 Walnut Street, Harrisburg PA 17101-1924. Checks MUST accompany an order and should be made payable to "Harrisburg Chapter NRHS". PLEASE INCLUDE A STAMPED, SELF-ADDRESSED ENVELOPE FOR MAILING OF YOUR TICKETS. There are no refunds given on purchased tickets. Tickets may be ordered by credit card by calling 717-232-6221 (answering machine) and leaving a call-back number. The RailFest web site is http://www.railroadcity.com. The Harrisburg Chapter web site is http://hrhs-hbg.pennsyrr.com. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 08:25:48 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] DelMarVa B6sb? Rumor, and one net listing of PRR steam, says it was at the Eastern Shore railway Museum in Parksley once upon a time...but not that I know of or remember in my 20 years here. It is also rumored to be or have been at the Wilmington & Western RR for a while. Jim McDaniel. wishing for steam on Delmarva (Nassawadox to be specific) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 08:43:09 -0400 Subject: [PRR] "Susquehannock" Excursion Slated for Oct 19-20 (LONG) From: Jerry Britton The Harrisburg Chapter, NRHS is selling tickets for a two-day train excursion from Harrisburg to Clearfield, PA on October 19 and 20, 2002. The excursion will feature coach seating in two coaches, with optional, extra-fare seating on a private parlor car, on a train pulled by a pair of immaculately restored, vintage PRR passenger diesel locomotives along with eight other privately owned cars. The chartered train, called the "Susquehannock", will leave from the Harrisburg Amtrak station at 8:30 a.m. on October 19. It will then run non-stop to Clearfield, PA via Norfolk Southern's freight-only Buffalo Line and R.J. Corman Railroad's ex-NYC line from Keating to Clearfield -- a total distance of over 260 miles. After dinner, passengers will be bussed to local motels for the night. Motel arrangements have been made by the Clearfield Chamber of Commerce. A list of available motels is below. Motel reservations are the responsibility of the individual traveler. On Sunday, October 20, the train will board at the R.J. Corman yard in Clearfield and will tour most of the Corman system, including places such as Bigler and Cherry Tree. After Sunday's trip, coach passengers will return to Harrisburg by chartered bus, the cost of which is included in the ticket price. Arrival time at Harrisburg's Amtrak station is estimated to be 9 p.m. Depending on time, a stop for a light snack may be held en route to Harrisburg. The locomotives for the excursion are the Juniata Terminal Company's E8's that have been restored to their original Pennsylvania Railroad colors and numbers. They were built in the 1950's and were last used by Conrail to power its executive train. The coaches for the train are air-conditioned and restroom-equipped. Food service consists of a boxed lunch for Saturday and a chicken barbeque on Saturday night at the county fairgrounds. Sunday's lunch will be at your own expense and will be available to all passengers at the Cherry Tree Community Park. The coach fare for the two-day trip, boarding only at Harrisburg, is $275. This pays for round trip transportation (train and bus), Saturday's lunch and dinner, and a special gift package. All other costs, including room charges, are the responsibility of the individual. Coach passengers cannot board at Philadelphia. Tickets are extremely limited, please order early to insure a seat. Tickets may be ordered from Harrisburg Chapter NRHS, Susquehannock Trip, 283 Tanger Road, Boiling Springs PA 17007. Checks MUST accompany an order and should be made payable to "Harrisburg Chapter NRHS". Individuals desiring to travel together should order tickets in the same envelope. Sorry, no credit cards can be accepted. PLEASE INCLUDE A STAMPED, SELF-ADDRESSED ENVELOPE FOR MAILING OF YOUR TICKETS. There are no refunds given on purchased tickets. Motel reservations in Clearfield are your responsibility. When reserving a room, please advise that this is a group rate listed under the Clearfield Chamber of Commerce. The motels are: Comfort Inn (814-768-6400) at $50/night; Super 8 (814-768-7580) at $47/night; or the Budget Inn (814-765-2639) at $40/night. You will be bussed from Saturday night dinner to the motels, and picked up again on Sunday morning. ----------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, President jbritton@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. Web hosting and design http://www.dsop.com "Merchandise Service" Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 09:07:00 -0400 Subject: [PRR] "Royal Blue" Excursion Slated for October 27 (LONG) From: Jerry Britton The Harrisburg Chapter, NRHS is selling tickets for a spectacular, one-day train excursion from Baltimore, MD to Philadelphia, PA on October 27, 2002. The excursion will feature very limited seating on a private parlor/lounge/buffet car, as part of a train pulled by a pair of immaculately restored, vintage PRR passenger diesel locomotives along with Several other privately owned cars. The special train, called the "Royal Blue", in celebration of the famous B&O passenger train on the same route, will leave from the B&O Museum, Pratt and Poppleton Streets in Baltimore at 7:30 a.m. On Sunday, October 27. It will run to Philadelphia over the route of the original "Royal Blue". The CSX (ex-B&O) main line will be used from the Museum to Park Junction in Philadelphia. The train will continue on the ex-RDG line to CP River, where it will why and return to CP Phil via the ex-PRR High Line. It will terminate at Amtrak's 30th Street Station. Food service, consisting of light breakfast out of Baltimore and a lunch and beverages, is included. Precise arrival time in Philadelphia is not known due to the complexity of the route and the need to subordinate this train to CSX's scheduled flow of traffic. The actual routing in Philadelphia is subject to railroad approval and operational needs. Your car for this trip will be a former Budd-built Southern Pacific "French Quarter" lounge car that then became Amtrak's "LePub" lounge car on the night train to Montreal. The car was completely rebuilt by Juniata Terminal and numbered 1157. The rebuild included the application of stainless steel smooth sides. It contains 15 swivel parlor chairs rescued from a New Haven "American Flyer" parlor, six lounge seats and 24 seats in six booths with tables. Only 40 seats will be sold. A full buffet section will provide food service that is included in the price. The locomotives for the excursion are the Juniata Terminal Company's E8's that have been restored to their original Pennsylvania Railroad colors and Numbers (5809 and 5711). They were built in the 1950's and were last used by Conrail to power its executive train. Tickets are extremely limited, please order early to insure a seat. Return transportation to your point of origin is your responsibility. Ticket price is $300 per person. Tickets may be ordered from Harrisburg Chapter NRHS, Royal Blue Trip, 283 Tanger Road, Boiling Springs PA 17007. Checks MUST accompany an order and should be made payable to "Harrisburg Chapter NRHS". Individuals desiring to travel together should order tickets in the same envelope. Sorry, no credit cards can be accepted. PLEASE INCLUDE A STAMPED, SELF-ADDRESSED ENVELOPE FOR MAILING OF YOUR TICKETS. There are no refunds given on purchased tickets. ----------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, President jbritton@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. Web hosting and design http://www.dsop.com "Merchandise Service" Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 08:38:26 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR: The just when you think you got it all figured out From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" All I finally got my hands on a Proto 2000 USRA PRR B28s 0-6-0. Super details. Great looking engine. BUT. The whistle is on the left side. Couldn't believe it. Thought the manufacturers made a mistake, especially after searching through the Pennsy Power series and Pennsy Steam and finding that every photo shows a right side whistle. Then I looked in the Cyclopedia and, lo and behold, the line drawing for an USRA 0-6-0 shows the whistle on the left side, and canted just as it is on the model. Not only that, but several railroads left the whistle on the left side. PRR, however, moved it over to the right side. So.....has anyone attempted to move the whistle on their model? Do I shear off the whistle and install it in a new hole on the other side of the dome? Does the whistle pop out of its mounting hole easily? I can't tell if the paint is black or DGLE (looks a little like the latter - greenish tinge). Anyone know how to match the paint? No point in reinventing the wheel if someone already has done these things. And then the question arises, who blew the whistle on the engines having a left side whistle? That is usually the engineman's job. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Excursions Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 14:16:24 +0000 What's Bennet trying to do - see how fast he can get those engines in for class overhauls? :-) I trust that all these trips are self supporting from that aspect. Thanks for being so generous and willing Bennet. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:22:51 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Irvona Branch Coal Operations at Cresson From: Jerry Britton Yesterday Pat McKinney confirmed that for my 1954 era the Irvona Branch coal trafficing was similar to what I have seen in recent years. Coal coming off the Irvona Branch meets the main line at Cresson, facing westward. The majority of these trains either a) head west on track five, parallel to the main line, run around the train, then head east; or b) head west on the Cresson Branch into Park yard and perform the run around, then head east on the main. (This I have NOT seen in recent years.) Based on that, I have the following question(s) which may, at this point in time, be largely answered by conjecture. In reality, a double run-around would be required. The first would be to move the cabin car to the other end of the train. The second would be to put the power where the cabin car had been. Would the same road crew have brought the train up the branch AND then continued with it east on the main? I'm guessing not, which could make it easier to deal with the run arounds, particularly with the yard option, as you could just use a different cabin car. With the Cresson engine facility serving not only helpers but also the Cresson branch, this would facilitate swapping power as well. Anyone have first-hand knowledge from the 1950's? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:29:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Excursions From: Jerry Britton On 8/29/02 10:16 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > What's Bennet trying to do - see how fast he can get > those engines in for class overhauls? :-) I trust that > all these trips are self supporting from that aspect. > Thanks for being so generous and willing Bennet. >From what I hear, they are QUITE profitable. The Harrisburg Chapter ran the dual Harrisburg-Philadelphia-Port Road excursions to create an endowment for their HARRIS tower. I believe they were quite excited about the proceeds from those trips. The sponsors are happy, the riders are happy, rail fans are happy, and I bet Bennett is having a great time, so what more could you ask for? ;-) Pssst, Bennett...please save me a seat to the PRRT&HS convention in Cincinnati in 2004!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KLJURY@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 10:48:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR 643 --part1_17a.db99ad5.2a9f8e52_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The only operable PRR steam loco B4A 0-6-0 #643 owned by the Williams Grove Historical Steam Engine Assn. & normally operated this week every year will not be running this year. The story I got was that in spite of extensive testing by the group a new state bolier inspector's test on crown sheet thickness failed. The group maintains he did not do a correct test and will get a certified bolier inspector to confirm the results, but couldn't get new tests done before the operating week came upon them. The 643 is sitting behind the enginehouse coupled to the N6b cabin with a new wooden ramp built up to the cab deck so visitors can get a look inside the cab. Venerable old re-enghined Whitcomb #8 is being repainted and will pull a single car for passengers down the 1 mile plus line so there will be train rides thru Labor Day. The group will welcome any donations towards keeping 643 running for many years to come, even if they have to replace the crown sheet over the winter. If you get a chance come out to the steam engine show an support them. There are at least a dozen and a half steam traction engines on site, some with ex=PRR & Rdg whistles that sound great. Also this weekend there will be miniature live steamers operaing on a circlE fo track. For sveral years previously they had been on display only but will be operatinf the finely built PRR classes of models which is a sight to see in itself! Williams Grove is off Rt 15 approx 15 mi. south of Harrisburg near the towns of Grantham and Dillsburg. As a post note the Whitcomb was former PP&L Holtwood swicther which switched coal dredged at Safe Harbor & transported via PRR downriver to Holtwood on the Port Road. --part1_17a.db99ad5.2a9f8e52_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The only operable  PRR steam loco B4A 0-6-0 #643 owned by the
Williams Grove Historical Steam Engine Assn. & normally operated
this week every year will not be running this year. The story I got was
that in spite of extensive testing by the group a new  state bolier
inspector's test on crown sheet thickness failed. The group maintains
he did not do a correct test and will get a certified bolier inspector to
confirm the results, but couldn't get new tests done before the operating
week came upon them.
  The 643 is sitting behind the enginehouse coupled to the N6b cabin
with a new wooden ramp built up to the cab deck so visitors can get a
look inside the cab. Venerable old re-enghined Whitcomb #8 is being
repainted and will pull a single car for passengers down the 1 mile plus line so there will be train rides thru  Labor Day.
  The group will welcome any donations towards keeping 643 running
for many years to come, even if they have to replace the crown sheet
over the winter. If you get a chance come out to the steam engine show
an support them. There are at least a dozen and a half steam traction
engines on site, some with ex=PRR & Rdg whistles that sound great.
Also this weekend there will be miniature live steamers operaing on
a circlE fo track. For sveral years previously they had been on display
only but will be operatinf the finely built PRR classes of models which
is a sight to see in itself!
  Williams Grove is off Rt 15 approx 15 mi. south of Harrisburg  near
the towns of Grantham and Dillsburg.
  As a post note the Whitcomb was former PP&L Holtwood swicther
which switched coal dredged at Safe Harbor & transported via PRR
downriver to Holtwood on the Port Road. --part1_17a.db99ad5.2a9f8e52_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] traffic on the New Portage secondary Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 12:50:34 -0400 As Doug Nelson says, the New Portage/H&P branch was used as a relief line. I also remember seeing it in Burgess and Kennedy as originally being called a "low grade line" -- maybe using it reduced the overall grade between Petersburg and Gallitzin via the H&P/New Portage, versus via the Spruce Creek tunnels on the main. Remember, the PRR main was not always located in the most optimal routing for operations (witness the main line between Conpitt Jct. and Pittsburgh station -- the Conemaugh valley to the Allegheny valley was the obvious "engineers" route, but that's not where the people were...) This "low grade" route, I think, was established around the time of the four-tracking of the Pittsburgh division, as a route for overflow traffic when the main line was congested (my guess: particularly at night when the passenger fleet was streaming over the Curve); as a route for slow traffic such as mineral trains or empties in order to keep the main line fluid (amazing that even a four-track main line wasn't enough to handle Pennsy's enormous traffic over the mountain); and as a bypass in the case of a massive derailment or other accident (such as the Red Arrow wreck) that would block the main line for many hours, or days. Anyone know if the New Portage was also used to return helpers back to Altoona? I assume New Portage trains also received helpers at Altoona or Hollidaysburg, it would be interesting to know if the New Portage was ever used to return light helpers to Altoona when the main was busy. A lot longer route to do that kind of thing, though... I think with the reduction of the overall number of trains being operated due to dieselization and the general decline in traffic post-war, the New Portage branch probably turned into a line chiefly for mineral trains and empties, and as an emergency bypass for preference trains. There's a shot in Pennsy Power 2 of a WB train coming off the New Portage at the east portal of the Gallitzin tunnels, looks like its an iron ore train, or empty hoppers (as I remember, the hoppers looked empty, but hopper ore trains were deceiving.) Jerry, as far as coal moving west- or east-bound and being "logical" vs. location of mines, remember that there are different qualities of bituminous coal, the two basics being "steam coal" for power generation, and "metallurgical coal" that's used to manufacture coke for blast furnaces. This steam coal/metallurgical coal situation could mean that loads of coal from one location could be headed in the direction of the area of other mines, as the 'wrong-routed coal' might have properties that the more-local variety didn't have. This brings up a question that I've wondered about -- in areas where there were local bituminous coal mines, did home coal-furnace users burn bituminous coal rather than anthracite, as (I assume) it would be cheaper? Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 13:02:19 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] traffic on the New Portage secondary From: Jerry Britton On 8/29/02 12:50 PM, Doug Drew (DDrew@channing-bete.com) wrote: > As Doug Nelson says, the New Portage/H&P branch was used as a relief line. I > also remember seeing it in Burgess and Kennedy as originally being called a > "low grade line" -- maybe using it reduced the overall grade between > Petersburg and Gallitzin via the H&P/New Portage, versus via the Spruce > Creek tunnels on the main. If I'm not mistaken, the grade was actually GREATER on the New Portage route. Also, regarding coal, there were several mines located ON the New Portage Branch. Notably, one only 1/2 mile or so east of SF where the branch rejoined the main line at Tunnel Hill. "Harrumph I" indicates that this coal went west, to Johnstown. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: [PRR] traffic on the New Portage secondary Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 13:17:12 -0400 Jerry Britton wrote: > If I'm not mistaken, the grade was actually GREATER on the New Portage > route. > > Also, regarding coal, there were several mines located ON the New Portage > Branch. Notably, one only 1/2 mile or so east of SF where the branch > rejoined the main line at Tunnel Hill. "Harrumph I" indicates that this > coal > went west, to Johnstown. > Doug Drew wrote: Could very well be, for the portion between Hollidaysburg and Tunnel Hill. I think B&K may have been referring to the H&P portion of that alternate route as the "low grade line". Sorry if I confused matters. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Doug Drew, SOB. "I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member!" -- Groucho Marx Subscriber to PRR-talk, because if you model 1950's USA standard gauge railroading, you ARE a PRR modeler! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 13:34:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] traffic on the New Portage secondary On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Jerry Britton wrote: > > As Doug Nelson says, the New Portage/H&P branch was used as a relief line. I > > also remember seeing it in Burgess and Kennedy as originally being called a > > "low grade line" -- maybe using it reduced the overall grade between > > Petersburg and Gallitzin via the H&P/New Portage, versus via the Spruce > > Creek tunnels on the main. > > If I'm not mistaken, the grade was actually GREATER on the New Portage > route. Ruling grade on the New Portage was 2.23% westward, flat eastbound. (District A Branches Track Chart, 12/31/57) Ruling grade on the east slope was 2.10% westbound, 1.59% eastbound. (District A Main Line Track Chart, 12/31/57) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 13:50:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] traffic on the New Portage secondary On Thu, 29 Aug 2002, Derrick J Brashear wrote: > Ruling grade on the east slope was 2.10% westbound, 1.59% eastbound. > (District A Main Line Track Chart, 12/31/57) Ooops, the 1.59% eastbound should have said "west slope, 1.59% eastbound" I have the charts covering the H&P and the main line east of Altoona somewhere; I can look at those but I think the main line had a more severe grade, also. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 14:34:21 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Excursions Thus far all of the trips beside the Northern Express have be designed to benefit Charities in the local area. The profit from the Altoona trips benefit the RR Memorial Museum. The Clearfield trips benefit a consortium of local Clearfield Charities. The E units are a real "loss" leader attraction. Just as the NS and RJ Corman do not make money on their effort, I doubt if I do also. I guess that puts me the the major leagues. Anyway I think a lot of people get a lot of pleasure seeing Eric's handy work and do really appreciate his efforts. I can also tell you that the planning of these trips is pretty much a full time effort. Not only do I have to deal with the freight railroads, but also AMTRAK. Then there is the issue of water, ice, sewage, fuel, route guides, parking, security, etc., etc...... I can also tell you directly that NS has been very community oriented in allowing and approving these trips. The trips are a disruption to their normally scheduled operations and burn up crews that would normally be assigned to profitable freight service. Next time the railfan community thinks ill of NS, take a moment to consider what they are doing to allow you to enjoy either a ride or a visual experience along the right-of-way. Needless to say, consider the additional liability that they expose themselves to my having to worry about chasers, and photo-phomers as well as the just plain curious that flock to the tracks to see what's coming. RJ Corman and the Clearfield Community have gone far beyond what would be expected. In the case of the Altoona trips on October 5 & 6 please consider buying a ticket to ride as the museum is in dire need of your support at this critical time. We have obtained permission from NS to run on the West Slope on Saturday late afternoon and Sunday morning. This is a ideal opportunity to by a ticket to enjoy yourself and support the museum. There is little in it for Eric and myself except the sense of satisfaction of seeing so many people look at something that evokes pleasant memories of a better time. We both spend long hours preparing for the trips and during the operation of the trips. Please buy a ticket and support the museum. ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > What's Bennet trying to do - see how fast he can get > those engines in for class overhauls? :-) I trust that > all these trips are self supporting from that aspect. > Thanks for being so generous and willing Bennet. Norm > Bell > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 16:35:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] traffic on the New Portage secondary Doug & List, The PRR would prefer westbound ore drags to use the New Portage Branch for several reasons. Once an ore train got past "Slope" interlocking, the 4 track mainline was down to three. All of the other w/b trains had to bunch up on the other westbound track. On a good day, ore trains from Alto to Gallitzin via the mainline could take over 1 hour to get there. And thats with 4 units up front, 2 mid-train and 2 rear end helpers. Most trains would creep along at 10 to 20 mph. Ore trains were known for stalling. Once a 10 to 12,000 ton ore drag stalls, you either had to break the train or back the train to Altoona. A PRRT&HS member who is also an engineer on the Pittsburgh Div. told me about the days of ore trains on the New Portage Branch and the Mainline. He simply said: "It was a long and slow ride." Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 16:36:17 -0400 From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] traffic on the New Portage secondary On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 12:50:34PM -0400, Doug Drew wrote: > the most optimal routing for operations (witness the main line between > Conpitt Jct. and Pittsburgh station -- the Conemaugh valley to the Allegheny > valley was the obvious "engineers" route, but that's not where the people > were...) As I recall, there were other reasons at the time (1840s), as Greensburg, Latrobe, et alii were not nearly as large as now. Details as to why the line went via there and not the Conemaugh River can be had on the First Report of the Chief Engineer of the PRR document, reprinted by PRRTHS a few years ago, but also available on my site http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Engrrept/ -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 14:36:42 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] traffic on the New Portage secondary --- Mark Bej wrote: > On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 12:50:34PM -0400, Doug Drew wrote: > > the most optimal routing for operations (witness the main line > between > > Conpitt Jct. and Pittsburgh station -- the Conemaugh valley to > the Allegheny > > valley was the obvious "engineers" route, but that's not where > the people > > were...) > > As I recall, there were other reasons at the time (1840s), as > Greensburg, > Latrobe, et alii were not nearly as large as now.... Latrobe was a lot smaller. The town was formed out of farm fields in the early 1850's. Chartered as a borough in 1854. Avoiding the Conemaugh Valley may have been due to the exitance of the Western Division canal occupying the only available route in a couple of tight places. Note that the Western Penna RR (which became the Conemaugh Division of PRR) was built under a requirement that the canal had to be maintained and operated until the RR was complete. The WPRR did a couple very odd things, routewise, which make little sense except for the need to not disrupt the canal. Much of the Conemaugh Line below Avonmore now rests on what used to be the canal, due to extensive rebuilding, apparently around 1907. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: [PRR] traffic on the New Portage secondary Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 18:00:06 -0400 Thanks, Mark. In the 1840's, *most* towns in western PA weren't as big as they are now ;-) Based on a brief skim, it looks like the objective was to get from Pittsburgh to Blairsville with the least amount of track miles while maintaining a reasonable grade, which Thomson was able to accomplish. Makes sense, given the construction technology of the time, the train sizes of the time and probably a limited budget. I had thought I had read (not in Thomson's report, but elsewhere) that there were a lot of state politics involved in the determination of the route, that's why it went over hill and dale from the Monongahela to the Conemaugh, rather than down the relatively flat Conemaugh valley to the Allegheny, thence to Pittsburg(h). Reading between the lines, I wonder if Thomson was putting forth a rationale for routing the way he more or less had to, to keep the politicians controlling the railroad's destiny happy. I find it difficult to swallow that going up Braddock hill to Swissvale, Liberty et al was preferable engineering-wise to following the Monongahela valley to its confluence. But then, I've only skimmed Thomson's report, YMMV. Doug Drew > ---------- > From: Mark Bej > Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 4:36 PM > To: Doug Drew > Cc: 'PRR-Talk' > Subject: Re: [PRR] traffic on the New Portage secondary > > On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 12:50:34PM -0400, Doug Drew wrote: > > the most optimal routing for operations (witness the main line between > > Conpitt Jct. and Pittsburgh station -- the Conemaugh valley to the > Allegheny > > valley was the obvious "engineers" route, but that's not where the > people > > were...) > > As I recall, there were other reasons at the time (1840s), as Greensburg, > Latrobe, et alii were not nearly as large as now. Details as to why the > line went via there and not the Conemaugh River can be had on the First > Report of the Chief Engineer of the PRR document, reprinted by PRRTHS > a few years ago, but also available on my site > http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Engrrept/ > > -- > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 19:25:12 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Railroad Books For Sale For sale: The American Railroad Passenger Car John White- 1985 Vol.1 & 2. $40 + postage The History of the Pennsylvania Railroad Timothy Jacobs- 1994- $15 + postage Please E-mail me directly if interested. Thanks, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 19:25:12 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Railroad Books For Sale For sale: The American Railroad Passenger Car John White- 1985 Vol.1 & 2. $40 + postage The History of the Pennsylvania Railroad Timothy Jacobs- 1994- $15 + postage Please E-mail me directly if interested. Thanks, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 19:25:12 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] Railroad Books For Sale For sale: The American Railroad Passenger Car John White- 1985 Vol.1 & 2. $40 + postage The History of the Pennsylvania Railroad Timothy Jacobs- 1994- $15 + postage Please E-mail me directly if interested. Thanks, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 19:54:17 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Calenders For Sale List- I have the following PRR Calenders for sale. $12 each + postage. All are like new. Most have never been unrolled. 1981 1982 1983 1985 1986 1990 1991 1992 1995 Thanks, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 19:54:17 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] PRR Calenders For Sale List- I have the following PRR Calenders for sale. $12 each + postage. All are like new. Most have never been unrolled. 1981 1982 1983 1985 1986 1990 1991 1992 1995 Thanks, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 22:22:22 -0300 From: A Samostie Subject: [PRR] PRR and Reading Suburban Phila. Lines Dear Group, Try as I might, I've never quite been able to figure out which lines currently operated by SEPTA are ex-Reading operations, and which are ex-PRR. Things get complicated because points on opposite sides of Center City Philadelphia share the same "R" number. R7 Chestnut Hill East trains run through to R7 Trenton, and R8 Chestnut Hill West trains run through to R8 Fox Chase. Both of these seem to be "improbable combinations" to me, and I'm guessing they were operated as completely separate lines in pre-SEPTA days. Also, the R2 timetable shows trains originating in Wilmington running through to Norristown, which is the R6 line... yet R6 Cynwyd trains don't run through to Norristown! Help!! I've completed the ones I'm sure of; hope y'all can help me understand by completing the list. R1 Airport: (Did airport service exist at all prior to SEPTA?) R1 Glenside: R2 Marcus Hook - Wilmington / Newark: PRR (Northeast Corridor) R2 Warminster: R3 Media - Elwyn: R3 West Trenton: Why is there no R4? R5 Thorndale - Paoli: PRR (Harrisburg main line) R5 Lansdale - Doylestown: R6 Norristown: R6 Cynwyd: R7 Chestnut Hill East: R7 Trenton: PRR (Northeast Corridor) R8 Fox Chase: R8 Chestnut Hill West: Norristown High Speed Line: Cheers, Alan ELHS #3178 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and Reading Suburban Phila. Lines Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 18:00:25 -0800 I've never figured out the rationale behind the numbering scheme, but here's how it works out. For PRR fans: >From the perspective of leaving Suburban Station westbound through 30th St Station. R1 - Airport. This uses some old B&O right-of-way, I believe it started up in 1984. Comes off mainline South of Arsenal R2 - Marcus Hook / Wilmington / Newark,DE. (PRR, NEC) R3 - Media / Elwyn (old PRR West Chester line). I think Septa is planning to go to Wawa on this line. R4 - Isn't one. I heard this was supposed to be the Newtown Square branch, but I'm not anyone is sure. R5 - Paoli / Thorndale. (PRR - Harrisburg ML) Septa used to go to as far as Parkesburg (5yrs+). R6 - Cynwyd. (PRR) Originally as far as Norristown, but cut back in the 80s. This is a proposed route for the Schuylkill Valley Metro, or whatever it's called today. R7 - Trenton (PRR,NEC) R8 - (PRR) Chestnut Hill Branch. Comes off of the NEC at North Philadelphia. Built to compete with Reading service to Chestnut Hill. Reading Fans: Leaving Reading Terminal (NB) or Market East (EB). Not sure of TT direction. R1 - Glenside (Orginally West Trenton, before that became R3) R2 - Warminster. IIRC, used to go to Hatboro in Rdg days. R3 - West Trenton R4 - ??? (Not even sure what this COULD be. Maybe call potential Bethlehem trains R4s?, change Doylestown to exclusively R5) R5 - Lansdale / Doylestown R6 - Norristown R7 - Chestnut Hill The Norristown High Speed line was a private company. The Pennsylvania & Western wanted to compete with the PRR between Philly and Pittsburgh. The made it to Stratford. That section was eventually abandoned. I suspect that the routing has to do with traffic loading and need for additional cars on some lines. But I'm not exactly sure. -alex ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregory Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR and Reading Suburban Phila. Lines Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 22:59:19 -0400 Alan- As Alex shows, the lines are mixed. You are getting confused as they converge into 30th street station, then onto Suburban Station, the original end of the PRR main line after Broad Street station was razed. When Septa took over and the city subway tunnel was built, this connected the PRR with the Reading Lines. The subway ducts into the city just west of City Hall. Then underground onto Suburban and Market East Stations. The track then travels directly under the Reading Terminal ( now the PA Convention Center) and northward. As the line passes under Spring Garden Street, it comes above ground and continues onto the old Reading viaduct line that used to carry the RDG trains into Reading Terminal. The Septa line converges where the RDG Green Street engine facility used to be. Ironically, the elevated RDG line that is no longer used is still electrified from the Callowhill Street Sub station. This is where the northern half of Septa gets power for the catenary. Septa uses the Reading Nicetown shops for their suburban routes to service the Silverliners, etc. Also, they built a new facility in Overbrook next to the old Acme warehouse just west of 46th street. North of the city, Septa uses more Reading lines. Chestnut Hill west that terminates on Germantown Ave and Fox Chase lines use ex-PRR. Chestnut Hill branch still branches off at North Philly, where the tower and station still stand with 8 tracks on the main, including high platforms. Sorry, no more GG1s pulling freights past North Philly. If your luck, you may see a pair of nicely restored E-8s with a wide stripe pass by. All in all, it is confusing. Mostly, you have to learn both the PRR and the RDG to get the just of the old Rights of Way. Mostly all Septa tracks southward and westward are PRR. Northward are a mix of PRR and RDG. http://www.septa.org/parking_project/fullmap_septa.html Greg V -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Alex Charyna Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:00 PM To: PRR-Talk Posting Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR and Reading Suburban Phila. Lines I've never figured out the rationale behind the numbering scheme, but here's how it works out. For PRR fans: >From the perspective of leaving Suburban Station westbound through 30th St Station. R1 - Airport. This uses some old B&O right-of-way, I believe it started up in 1984. Comes off mainline South of Arsenal R2 - Marcus Hook / Wilmington / Newark,DE. (PRR, NEC) R3 - Media / Elwyn (old PRR West Chester line). I think Septa is planning to go to Wawa on this line. R4 - Isn't one. I heard this was supposed to be the Newtown Square branch, but I'm not anyone is sure. R5 - Paoli / Thorndale. (PRR - Harrisburg ML) Septa used to go to as far as Parkesburg (5yrs+). R6 - Cynwyd. (PRR) Originally as far as Norristown, but cut back in the 80s. This is a proposed route for the Schuylkill Valley Metro, or whatever it's called today. R7 - Trenton (PRR,NEC) R8 - (PRR) Chestnut Hill Branch. Comes off of the NEC at North Philadelphia. Built to compete with Reading service to Chestnut Hill. Reading Fans: Leaving Reading Terminal (NB) or Market East (EB). Not sure of TT direction. R1 - Glenside (Orginally West Trenton, before that became R3) R2 - Warminster. IIRC, used to go to Hatboro in Rdg days. R3 - West Trenton R4 - ??? (Not even sure what this COULD be. Maybe call potential Bethlehem trains R4s?, change Doylestown to exclusively R5) R5 - Lansdale / Doylestown R6 - Norristown R7 - Chestnut Hill The Norristown High Speed line was a private company. The Pennsylvania & Western wanted to compete with the PRR between Philly and Pittsburgh. The made it to Stratford. That section was eventually abandoned. I suspect that the routing has to do with traffic loading and need for additional cars on some lines. But I'm not exactly sure. -alex ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 08:05:02 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] DelMarVa B6sb? I saw this several places on the web including the following: http://prr.railfan.net/lists/PRRSteamers.html and I quote: "East Shore Railroad, Parksley, VA 60 - 0-6-0 B6sa (now at W&WRR - see below)" "W&WRR (private,stored), Hockessin, DE 60 - B-6sb 0-6-0 " The B-6sa on the Wilmington & Western in Hockessin Delawareis easily seen. It's stored on a siding at where the tracks cross route 41 in "downtown" Hockessin (i.e., suburban Wilmington). It's parked behind 2 Reading MU's (in Septa paint). It can be seen easily without entering railroad property from the parking lot of an office/professional building complex off Yorklyn Road (the traffic light on route 41). I've no knowledge of steam restoration work, but to me this engine seems _at best_ a candidate for cosmetic-only restoration. It's pretty sad looking."-- Gary Weaver Here's some more info on #60-- "It was bougth by the Cemline Corp in the early 50s to be used as a stationary boiler. i saw it around 1980. It was in Harmarville PA, (photo) just over the hillside from route 28, directly underneath the bridge of the Pennsylvaina Turnpike. It was pretty well stripped and had no lettering visible but you could stilll climb in it like a kid even though it was sitting amongst trees and weeds and brush. it was close to a large corrugated industrial building, but was out of sight of almost everyone. I went back several years later and the engine was gone."-- Mike Kraynak, Pittsburgh, PA www.steamlocomotive.com has the following: Steam Locomotive Search 2 search keyword(s): PRR 0-6-0 No. Class F.M. Whyte Gauge Railroad Line Location Status 60 B6sa 0-6-0 4'-8½" PRR Wilmington & Western Railroad, Hockessin, DE private, stored 0-6-0 4'-8½" PRR behind freight station, Nassau Rd and New Rd, Nassau, DE unknown I obviously can't vouch for the accuracy of any of this but it's interesting anyway. Jim McDaniel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] ruling grade on the mountain Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 08:38:59 -0400 Derrick Brashear wrote: Ruling grade on the east slope was 2.10% westbound, 1.59% eastbound. (District A Main Line Track Chart, 12/31/57) Doug Drew replies: ...and the 2.10% portion was on the "slide" between the crest of the grade east of AR and Benny, wasn't it, a section of the main usually used only for eastbound traffic? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 09:34:20 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR and Reading Suburban Phila. Lines A one line explanation for all this is that they connected the PRR and RDG through Center City, and the "confusing" SEPTA routes invariably have an ex-PRR line running through to an ex-RDG line; the PRR line of course is the end that goes through 30th St. And one tiny typo, I believe the High-Speed Line is ex-Philadelphia & Western, not "Pennsylvania & Western." John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 10:08:35 EDT Subject: [PRR] Bel-Del Book Hello Listers, Recently there was a thread about the PRR Bel-Del Branch. This past week I saw a copy of "Down Along the Old Bel-Del" by Warren F. Lee at a book store in Morristown, NJ. The book was in excellent condition and the price was listed at $34.95. If anyone is interested, I suggest they visit the shop's website which is: www.bookshopmorris.com Andy Hart, PRRT&HS #92 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 10:21:43 -0400 From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] traffic on the New Portage secondary On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 06:00:06PM -0400, Doug Drew wrote: > Thanks, Mark. > In the 1840's, *most* towns in western PA weren't as big as they are now ;-) I meant, of course, even in relation to the size of Phila and Pgh at the time. But I should have said so, which is why I allowed myself to bet the butt of your joke ... -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Doug Drew Subject: RE: [PRR] traffic on the New Portage secondary Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 10:49:14 -0400 Gee, Mark, sorry if I offended you. Didn't realize you'd take such umbrage at my little joke. > ---------- > From: Mark Bej > Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 10:21 AM > To: Doug Drew > Cc: 'Mark Bej'; 'PRR-Talk' > Subject: Re: [PRR] traffic on the New Portage secondary > > On Thu, Aug 29, 2002 at 06:00:06PM -0400, Doug Drew wrote: > > Thanks, Mark. > > In the 1840's, *most* towns in western PA weren't as big as they are now > ;-) > > I meant, of course, even in relation to the size of Phila and Pgh at the > time. > > But I should have said so, which is why I allowed myself to bet the butt > of > your joke ... > > -- > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 12:16:42 -0400 From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] traffic on the New Portage secondary On Fri, Aug 30, 2002 at 10:49:14AM -0400, Doug Drew wrote: > Gee, Mark, sorry if I offended you. Didn't realize you'd take such umbrage > at my little joke. I guess I'm not doing very well tranmitting emotion in email. Sorry. I did NOT take any umbrage, but rather, enjoyed your joke. And since we've strayed from PRR, I'll shut up. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 12:26:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] ruling grade on the mountain On Fri, 30 Aug 2002, Doug Drew wrote: > Derrick Brashear wrote: > > Ruling grade on the east slope was 2.10% westbound, 1.59% eastbound. > (District A Main Line Track Chart, 12/31/57) > > Doug Drew replies: > > ...and the 2.10% portion was on the "slide" between the crest of the grade > east of AR and Benny, wasn't it, a section of the main usually used only for > eastbound traffic? That wouldn't be a westbound controlling grade, then, would it? ;-) They show grades for tracks 1&2 ("eastward tracks") and 3&4 ("westward tracks") and the eastward downgrade on the slide is of course steeper. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] E44's Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 16:40:28 +0000 The picture Kalmbach is trying to hawk today is of a Virgian rectifier engine at Roanoke. The caption states something about a Virginian E44 being taken in the yard there. What does that make the E44's - E 55's? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 12:45:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] E44's On Fri, 30 Aug 2002 ndbprr@att.net wrote: > The picture Kalmbach is trying to hawk today is of a > Virgian rectifier engine at Roanoke. The caption states > something about a Virginian E44 being taken in the yard > there. What does that make the E44's - E 55's? VGN had E33s. The Muskingum Electric units were E50-equivalent as were (I think) the late E44s the PRR got (E44a class) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Emerson" Subject: [PRR] Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 09:56:19 -0700 I apologize if this question is off the normal subject. Does anyone have any information about Arroyo, PA. My understanding is that it was a "rail crossroads' in the early years. Jim Emerson Lake Oswego, Oregon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 10:26:51 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] --- Jim Emerson <jemerson@sterlink.net> wrote: > I apologize if this question is off the normal subject. Does > anyone have > any information about Arroyo, PA. My understanding is that it was > a "rail > crossroads' in the early years. The only Arroyo, PA I know of, and the only one known to the Geographic Name Information System at http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnis/web_query.gnis_web_query_form is on the Clarion River, downstream from Ridgway, PA, between Portland Mills and Hallton. The GNIS lists it as a "populated place" which, here in 2002 is quite an exaggeration. There once was a tannery there, and a town for the workers. Only one railroad, the Clarion River RR, a wholly owned (but isolated) subsidiary of the Pittsburg, Shawmut and Northern. Fortunately for preserving topicality, the CRRR built a bridge across Toby Creek (a tributary of the Clarion River) to a connection with the Ridgway Branch of the PRR. More info is available, should you care; e-mail me privately if you want. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] DelMarVa B6sb? Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 13:28:47 -0500 I think Car Izzo provided what happened to the #60 B6sa stored at Hamarville just a short time ago on this same forum. -----Original Message----- From: James L. McDaniel [mailto:jlmcdaniel@esva.net] Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 7:05 AM To: edmund burbage; PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] DelMarVa B6sb? I saw this several places on the web including the following: http://prr.railfan.net/lists/PRRSteamers.html and I quote: "East Shore Railroad, Parksley, VA 60 - 0-6-0 B6sa (now at W&WRR - see below)" "W&WRR (private,stored), Hockessin, DE 60 - B-6sb 0-6-0 " The B-6sa on the Wilmington & Western in Hockessin Delawareis easily seen. It's stored on a siding at where the tracks cross route 41 in "downtown" Hockessin (i.e., suburban Wilmington). It's parked behind 2 Reading MU's (in Septa paint). It can be seen easily without entering railroad property from the parking lot of an office/professional building complex off Yorklyn Road (the traffic light on route 41). I've no knowledge of steam restoration work, but to me this engine seems _at best_ a candidate for cosmetic-only restoration. It's pretty sad looking."-- Gary Weaver Here's some more info on #60-- "It was bougth by the Cemline Corp in the early 50s to be used as a stationary boiler. i saw it around 1980. It was in Harmarville PA, (photo) just over the hillside from route 28, directly underneath the bridge of the Pennsylvaina Turnpike. It was pretty well stripped and had no lettering visible but you could stilll climb in it like a kid even though it was sitting amongst trees and weeds and brush. it was close to a large corrugated industrial building, but was out of sight of almost everyone. I went back several years later and the engine was gone."-- Mike Kraynak, Pittsburgh, PA www.steamlocomotive.com has the following: Steam Locomotive Search 2 search keyword(s): PRR 0-6-0 No. Class F.M. Whyte Gauge Railroad Line Location Status 60 B6sa 0-6-0 4'-8½" PRR Wilmington & Western Railroad, Hockessin, DE private, stored 0-6-0 4'-8½" PRR behind freight station, Nassau Rd and New Rd, Nassau, DE unknown I obviously can't vouch for the accuracy of any of this but it's interesting anyway. Jim McDaniel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] DelMarVa B6sb? Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 19:07:46 +0000 I wonder what the $ difference is to restore a switcher compared to a road engine? I suspect that the only difference is the material costs. > I think Car Izzo provided what happened to the #60 B6sa stored at Hamarville > just a short time ago on this same forum. > > -----Original Message----- > From: James L. McDaniel [mailto:jlmcdaniel@esva.net] > Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 7:05 AM > To: edmund burbage; PRR Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] DelMarVa B6sb? > > > I saw this several places on the web including the following: > > http://prr.railfan.net/lists/PRRSteamers.html > and I quote: > > "East Shore Railroad, Parksley, VA > 60 - 0-6-0 B6sa (now at W&WRR - see below)" > > "W&WRR (private,stored), Hockessin, DE > 60 - B-6sb 0-6-0 > > " The B-6sa on the Wilmington & Western in Hockessin Delawareis > easily seen. It's stored on a siding at where the tracks cross route 41 > in "downtown" Hockessin (i.e., suburban Wilmington). It's parked behind > 2 Reading MU's (in Septa paint). It can be seen easily without entering > railroad property from the parking lot of an office/professional > building complex off Yorklyn Road (the traffic light on route 41). I've > no knowledge of steam restoration work, but to me this engine seems _at > best_ a candidate for cosmetic-only restoration. It's pretty sad > looking."-- Gary Weaver > > Here's some more info on #60-- "It was bougth by the Cemline > Corp in the early 50s to be used as a stationary boiler. i saw it around > 1980. It was in Harmarville PA, (photo) just over the hillside from > route 28, directly underneath the bridge of the Pennsylvaina Turnpike. > It was pretty well stripped and had no lettering visible but you could > stilll climb in it like a kid even though it was sitting amongst trees > and weeds and brush. it was close to a large corrugated industrial > building, but was out of sight of almost everyone. I went back several > years later and the engine was gone."-- Mike Kraynak, Pittsburgh, PA > > www.steamlocomotive.com has the following: > > Steam Locomotive Search > > 2 search keyword(s): PRR 0-6-0 > > No. Class F.M. Whyte Gauge Railroad Line Location Status > > 60 B6sa 0-6-0 4'-8½" PRR Wilmington & Western Railroad, > Hockessin, DE private, stored > 0-6-0 4'-8½" PRR behind freight station, Nassau > Rd and New Rd, Nassau, DE unknown > > I obviously can't vouch for the accuracy of any of this but it's > interesting anyway. > > Jim McDaniel > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] K4 modifications Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 18:30:12 -0400

Does anyone know what year the automatic lubricator on the fireman's side and the stoker were added to the K4? Just kind of curious.
Thanks,
Eric
----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 21:09:54 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Catenary Structures on Secondary Lines in North I'm sure Mark's answers are authoritative, and I can't comment on catenary support design. The "tracks equipped for AC operation" in Timetable # 21, April, 1966, goes on for several pages. Much of this is a list of specific yard and other non-main trackage. Major trackage not to overlook (in NJ only): Jersey City Branch, Hudson to Waldo (including the H&M/PATH tracks, over part of which unused catenary still hangs). Tracks to Harsimus Cove ("all tracks Waldo to JH", I'm not sure where JH was) ; and -- get this -- "Former Jersey City Branch No. 1 track, Waldo to 835 feet east to refuel GG-1 engines" !! -- oh, those thirsty steam boilers!) Passaic & Harsimus Branch (the Newark freight bypass referred to in the original post) Greenville Branch (Greenville Yard to Lane); various tracks at Greenville, including to some float bridges Perth Amboy & Woodbridge Branch (Union to SA; mentioned in original post) Jamesburg Branch (which Mark mentioned, JG (Jamesburg) to Midway) (timetable direction JG to Midway is westward) Princeton Branch (Nassau to Princeton) East and West Legs of Wye at Millham (Trenton area) Amboy Secondary (SA to JG; this does indeed cross NJ Route 516 at Old Bridge) (timetable direction SA to JG is westward) Also electrified: No. 1 Running Track, OB to East End, 2.2 mi east; No. 2 Running Track, CQ to Deep Cut -- about 1.6 mi west of SA at South Amboy) A short piece of the Bordentown Branch at Trenton (180 feet west of interlocking limits) Millstone Running Track, electrified County to 1700 ft west (Jersey Avenue station today) Rocky Hill Running Track, Midway to 730 ft west ++++++++++ In the Philadelphia area, but still in NJ, note that catenary existed over the bridge to Jersey interlocking, and some tracks beyond Jersey. In earlier times, I believe the passenger station at Jersey City had AC electrification, no? Someday I'd like to hear the story of the folks at the Standard Railroad who maintained all the timetables! John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 21:15:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Catenary Structures on Secondary Lines in North Oh yes, since Brown Yard was of special interest, catenary was provided for: No. 1 track, empty car yard West end of tracks No. 2 through 7, empty car yard for 500 feet East end tracks No. 1 to 18 Loaded Car Yard for 500 feet; and Loaded Car Yard Ladder. No. 2 Stock Ground track for 445 feet at west end. This doesn't help much without a track diagram, but it gives you an idea of how many tracks they had. Brown was 1.3 miles east of Old Bridge. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 21:42:44 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] DelMarVa B6sb? Greetings to James, Marvin, Norm and the List: I saw No. 60 this afternoon. No SEPTA MUs around it now, but a UP caboose is stored on the same siding. By the looks of the now-non-vertical rust streaks on the main driver counterweight, it appears as if the engine was recently moved a few feet; perhaps someone's intent was to keep the axles and driving boxes lightly exercised. A reasonably recent coat of paint gives it a fresh look and makes it appear to be far from derelict. But it would need many tens of thousands of dollars to return it to even a semblance of static-display condition. Boiler and firebox jacketing is missing; tender side sheets are rusted through in many places; pilot and running boards are missing; cab front wall is fragmentary. But it's PRR and fortunate we are that it's still around! Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------- ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > I wonder what the $ difference is to restore a switcher > compared to a road engine? I suspect that the only > difference is the material costs. > > I think Car Izzo provided what happened to the #60 B6sa stored at Hamarville > > just a short time ago on this same forum. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: James L. McDaniel [mailto:jlmcdaniel@esva.net] > > Sent: Friday, August 30, 2002 7:05 AM > > To: edmund burbage; PRR Talk > > Subject: Re: [PRR] DelMarVa B6sb? > > > > > > I saw this several places on the web including the following: > > > > http://prr.railfan.net/lists/PRRSteamers.html > > and I quote: > > > > "East Shore Railroad, Parksley, VA > > 60 - 0-6-0 B6sa (now at W&WRR - see below)" > > > > "W&WRR (private,stored), Hockessin, DE > > 60 - B-6sb 0-6-0 > > > > " The B-6sa on the Wilmington & Western in Hockessin Delawareis > > easily seen. It's stored on a siding at where the tracks cross route 41 > > in "downtown" Hockessin (i.e., suburban Wilmington). It's parked behind > > 2 Reading MU's (in Septa paint). It can be seen easily without entering > > railroad property from the parking lot of an office/professional > > building complex off Yorklyn Road (the traffic light on route 41). I've > > no knowledge of steam restoration work, but to me this engine seems _at > > best_ a candidate for cosmetic-only restoration. It's pretty sad > > looking."-- Gary Weaver > > > > Here's some more info on #60-- "It was bougth by the Cemline > > Corp in the early 50s to be used as a stationary boiler. i saw it around > > 1980. It was in Harmarville PA, (photo) just over the hillside from > > route 28, directly underneath the bridge of the Pennsylvaina Turnpike. > > It was pretty well stripped and had no lettering visible but you could > > stilll climb in it like a kid even though it was sitting amongst trees > > and weeds and brush. it was close to a large corrugated industrial > > building, but was out of sight of almost everyone. I went back several > > years later and the engine was gone."-- Mike Kraynak, Pittsburgh, PA > > > > www.steamlocomotive.com has the following: > > > > Steam Locomotive Search > > > > 2 search keyword(s): PRR 0-6-0 > > > > No. Class F.M. Whyte Gauge Railroad Line Location Status > > > > 60 B6sa 0-6-0 4'-8½" PRR Wilmington & Western Railroad, > > Hockessin, DE private, stored > > 0-6-0 4'-8½" PRR behind freight station, Nassau > > Rd and New Rd, Nassau, DE unknown > > > > I obviously can't vouch for the accuracy of any of this but it's > > interesting anyway. > > > > Jim McDaniel > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:06:37 -0300 From: A Samostie Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Catenary Structures on Secondary Lines Dear Bob and Group, Thanks! I now understand why there are catenary supports wandering across the Jersey Meadows to nowhere... seems there were more electrified lines in the area than I was aware of. Was the entire "Chemical Coast Line" electrified? Now... as for other electrified lines (again, keeping in mind I'm not a PRR expert): Other than Philadelphia suburban territory, the ones I'm aware of are: - the PRR Main to Harrisburg - the Atglen & Susquehanna "low grade line" paralleling the main - the Columbia and Port Deposit cutoff in Maryland - Potomac Yard in Alexandria, VA Any others in Maryland or Delaware? Were there electrified bypasses around the Wilmington and Baltimore stations? And... any guesses on the Staten Island catenary supports? Cheers, Alan ELHS #3178 bobsin@nac.net wrote: > > I'm sure Mark's answers are authoritative, and I can't comment on > catenary support design. > > The "tracks equipped for AC operation" in Timetable # 21, April, > 1966, goes on for several pages. Much of this is a list of specific > yard and other non-main trackage. > > Major trackage not to overlook (in NJ only): > > Jersey City Branch, Hudson to Waldo (including the H&M/PATH > tracks, over part of which unused catenary still hangs). Tracks to > Harsimus Cove ("all tracks Waldo to JH", I'm not sure where JH > was) ; and -- get this -- "Former Jersey City Branch No. 1 track, > Waldo to 835 feet east to refuel GG-1 engines" !! -- oh, those > thirsty steam boilers!) > > Passaic & Harsimus Branch (the Newark freight bypass referred to > in the original post) > > Greenville Branch (Greenville Yard to Lane); various tracks at > Greenville, including to some float bridges > > Perth Amboy & Woodbridge Branch (Union to SA; mentioned in > original post) > > Jamesburg Branch (which Mark mentioned, JG (Jamesburg) to > Midway) (timetable direction JG to Midway is westward) > > Princeton Branch (Nassau to Princeton) > > East and West Legs of Wye at Millham (Trenton area) > > Amboy Secondary (SA to JG; this does indeed cross NJ Route > 516 at Old Bridge) (timetable direction SA to JG is westward) Also > electrified: No. 1 Running Track, OB to East End, 2.2 mi east; No. > 2 Running Track, CQ to Deep Cut -- about 1.6 mi west of SA at > South Amboy) > > A short piece of the Bordentown Branch at Trenton (180 feet west > of interlocking limits) > > Millstone Running Track, electrified County to 1700 ft west (Jersey > Avenue station today) > > Rocky Hill Running Track, Midway to 730 ft west > > ++++++++++ > > In the Philadelphia area, but still in NJ, note that catenary existed > over the bridge to Jersey interlocking, and some tracks beyond > Jersey. > > In earlier times, I believe the passenger station at Jersey City had > AC electrification, no? > > Someday I'd like to hear the story of the folks at the Standard > Railroad who maintained all the timetables! > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:34:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Catenary Structures on Secondary Lines Hello Alan, There was a freight bypass around Wilmington Del. called the "Shellpot Branch" which was electrified. A two track branch about 6 miles long. Branch is still there (with cat poles still in place). I don't think it's being used(?). Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] DelMarVa B6sb? Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 20:26:36 -0700 Dan and all, The lack of lagging on the boiler actually is a good thing. The old asbestos-based magnesia lagging was not only dangerous, but also it held moisture next to the boiler shell. Having been removed, there is a signifantally lower chance that the boiler shell will be subjected to rust. The jacketing that is gone is relatively simple to replace with sheet steel. Most of the other things you noticed actually are relatively minor...but as you mentioned the cost of rebuilding is pretty high, both in material and labor. Steam died because it was expensive to maintain. Today, with no infrastructure in existance to support regular maintenance, and few people trained in steam plant maintenance, it is extremely expensive. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Fri, 30 Aug 2002 21:42:44 -0400 Dan Cupper wrote: > Greetings to James, Marvin, Norm and the List: > > I saw No. 60 this afternoon. No SEPTA MUs around it now, > but a UP > caboose is stored on the same siding. By the looks of the > now-non-vertical rust streaks on the main driver > counterweight, it > appears as if the engine was recently moved a few feet; > perhaps > someone's intent was to keep the axles and driving boxes > lightly > exercised. A reasonably recent coat of paint gives it a > fresh look and > makes it appear to be far from derelict. But it would > need many tens of > thousands of dollars to return it to even a semblance of > static-display > condition. Boiler and firebox jacketing is missing; > tender side sheets > are rusted through in many places; pilot and running > boards are missing; > cab front wall is fragmentary. But it's PRR and fortunate > we are that > it's still around! > > Dan Cupper > > ----------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 23:40:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Catenary Structures on Secondary Lines On Fri, 30 Aug 2002 zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > Hello Alan, > > There was a freight bypass around Wilmington Del. called the > "Shellpot Branch" which was electrified. A two track branch about 6 > miles long. > Branch is still there (with cat poles still in place). I don't > think it's being used(?). Wasn't this the branch Delaware was going to pay to upgrade the bridge on and NS was going to pay rent for each carload that crossed it? (Something which would have been announced in the last 2 months or so) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 01:06:23 -0300 From: A Samostie Subject: Re: [PRR] Wilmington Area (was re: Catenary Structures) Dear Derrick, That plan to rehab the Shellpot Branch sounds familiar, yes. But, I always wondered why they don't just use the Reading spur to Pigeon Point to reach that area. The branch terminates at a carfloat right next to the Del. Memorial Bridge. (That is, if that track still exists). There is also a track that approaches the river just north of New Castle... not sure who that track belonged to, though. Cheers, Alan ELHS #3178 Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > On Fri, 30 Aug 2002 zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > > > Hello Alan, > > > > There was a freight bypass around Wilmington Del. called the > > "Shellpot Branch" which was electrified. A two track branch about 6 > > miles long. > > Branch is still there (with cat poles still in place). I don't > > think it's being used(?). > > Wasn't this the branch Delaware was going to pay to upgrade the bridge on > and NS was going to pay rent for each carload that crossed it? > (Something which would have been announced in the last 2 months or so) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 00:14:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Catenary Structures on Secondary Lines Derrick....... I don't know what the story is on the Shellpot Branch. I did hear something about NS may start running trains on this line again. Who knows. Never thought I'd see thru freights on the exPRR main south of Philly again. Hope it happens! Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 00:26:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Wilmington Area (was re: Catenary Structures) On Sat, 31 Aug 2002, A Samostie wrote: > > Dear Derrick, > > That plan to rehab the Shellpot Branch sounds familiar, yes. But, I http://communities.prodigy.net/trains/cnsnews.htm http://www.bmwe.org/NW/2002/05MAY/86.htm http://www.construction.com/NewsCenter/Headlines/ENR/20020604a.jsp so, yeah, it's real. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 09:39:22 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] DelMarVa B6sb? From: aurora7@juno.com With regard to B6sa #60, the very fact that someone invests the cost of a paint job is testimony to the fact she is cared for. The cost of rehabilitating the old girl would be outrageous, but just as another has pointed out, she is Pennsy. As long as her tank and cab are still extant, somebody can be getting drawings, measurements and photographs. Replacing many of her parts is simply a necessity when restoring static steam. Her wheels, frame, and cylinders are the priceless parts. It may be beyond "reason" to rebuild her for operation, but it's a little like restoring some of Europe's cathedrals after the war. It isn't a matter of cost effectiveness, it's a matter of saving what once was for future generations. Somebody give me tonight's winning lottery numbers, and you'll see some steam restoration. Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "Time flies like the wind. Fruit flies like a banana" - Groucho ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 10:05:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] DelMarVa B6sb? List, I have read descriptions of what the #60 looked like while it was sitting in Cheswick/Springdale/Turnpike Bridge area for all those years. I would really like to see a photo of it today as it is now. Dan, did you snap any? Any on the net? The owner, whomever it is, should consider donating the B6sa to the Museum in Strasburg. It would be taken care of (cosmetically) in due time. Waiting and letting the loco sit for another dozen years will of course see the loco deteriorate even further, perhaps even further than what a static restoration can handle. ....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 11:50:20 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Catenary Structures on Secondary Lines This could go on for a long time; just one thing, for all the Conrail fans out there who have forgotten where all the lines came from, the Chemical Coast line was the Jersey Central! No catenary there. In Pennsylvania and Delaware, the major lines that were electrified (not including what is still in service): 36 St Connection (still electrified?) Grays Ferry Branch, Zoo to Arsenal West Chester Branch all the way to West Chester (wires still up past Media?) West Philadelphia Elevated (Zoo to Brill) Delaware Extension (Arsenal to Broad St. OH Bridge) Schuylkill Branch shows wires only to Man (Manayunk) as today; but did they go further? Weren't there cat bridges at Norristown, or am I confusing the Reading?) Trenton Branch (the Philadelphia freight bypass) Philadelphia & Thorndale Branch (Dale to Thorn, 10 mi.) The DRR&BCo Branch (Delaware River bridge, Frankford Jct) Shellpot Branch (Ragan on the Main Line, to Bridge) Columbia and Port Deposit Branch And yard and running tracks beyond number. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mouldymay@aol.com Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 12:11:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Catenary Structures on Secondary Lines --part1_a4.2b563aa8.2aa24499_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Part of the old Newtown Square Branch, a line which was never electrified, has Poles which were installed about the mid 50's by the Philadelphia Electric Company, to carry their lines along the RR right of way. These lines and poles are on both sides of the track and constructed in the same manner as the PRR built catenary systems, with horizontal members crossing the track to support a catenary. Was it the PRR's policy to require electric Companies using their right of way to construct their supports to accommodate a possible future electrification program? --part1_a4.2b563aa8.2aa24499_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Part of the old Newtown Square Branch, a line which was never electrified, has Poles which were installed about the mid 50's by the Philadelphia Electric Company, to carry their lines along the RR right of way.  These lines and poles are on both sides of the track and constructed in the same manner as the PRR built catenary systems, with horizontal members crossing the track to support a catenary.  Was it the PRR's policy to require electric Companies using their right of way to construct their supports to accommodate a possible future electrification program? --part1_a4.2b563aa8.2aa24499_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Catenary Structures on Secondary Lines Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 08:25:57 -0800 Interesting question. The Kensington & Tacony branch is also the same way. It runs from Holmesburg Junction under I-95 to State Road and down. When I first saw it, I thought it was electrified. But it turns out, they were only PRR catenary poles running PECO lines. However, the Bustleton Branch has some power lines over part of it's ROW (Roughly running parallel to Grant Ave, between Bustleton Ave and Blue Grass). They seem to be of a new vintage, and do not look like PRR poles. -alex ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 8:11 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Catenary Structures on Secondary Lines > Part of the old Newtown Square Branch, a line which was never electrified, > has Poles which were installed about the mid 50's by the Philadelphia > Electric Company, to carry their lines along the RR right of way. These > lines and poles are on both sides of the track and constructed in the same > manner as the PRR built catenary systems, with horizontal members crossing > the track to support a catenary. Was it the PRR's policy to require electric > Companies using their right of way to construct their supports to accommodate > a possible future electrification program? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 13:17:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Wilmington Area (was re: Catenary Structures) --part1_36.2cdd227f.2aa25411_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Shellpot branch was also designed to served as a bypass to the Wilmington passenger station. I believe the rebuilding has been planned to get under way soon, now that the State of Delaware has struck a deal with NS to finance the refurbishment of the bridge on the line. --part1_36.2cdd227f.2aa25411_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Shellpot branch was also designed to served as a bypass to the Wilmington passenger station.  I believe the rebuilding has been planned to get under way soon, now that the State of Delaware has struck a deal with NS to finance the refurbishment of the bridge on the line. --part1_36.2cdd227f.2aa25411_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 13:53:02 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Catenary Structures on Secondary Lines Construction of power lines along rail ROW can be deceiving. When I was in the Army at Fort Monmouth, 1968-9, I and other resident railfans watched with great interest the march of what looked like catenary structure poles down the Jersey Central's Southern Divison past our offices. Alas, they're still there, carrying power to the people but not to any trains, although the end of that freight-only line in Red Bank now joins the now-electrified, ex- NY&LB main, and could be a subject some day for an extension of the Greater Pennsy Catenary Diaspora. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 14:47:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Catenary Structures on Secondary Lines The "Fort Washington Branch" was a little known electrified line of the Chestnut Hill Branch. This line connected with the Trenton Cutoff at Whitemarsh. Another line not mentioned here is the "York Haven Line" from Cly (A&S Branch) to DAY interlocking,Enola. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 15:17:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] DelMarVa B6sb? Before you all wax eloquent on this - I believe that this loco has a radial stay, not Belpaire, firebox ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 15:23:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] DelMarVa B6sb? Radiual stay or Belpaire has nothing to do with it. It is a PRR Class Loco and a PRR Built Loco...... Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 17:22:37 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Wilmington-area B6sa (was [PRR] DelMarVa B6sb?) Which makes this the right moment to change the thread title to B6sa, and the location of the locomotive, because Route 41 in the suburbs of Wilmington is not exactly DelMarVa-land. Dan Cupper --------------------------------------- VVA249@aol.com wrote: > > Before you all wax eloquent on this - I believe that this loco has a > radial stay, not Belpaire, firebox ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] DelMarVa B6sb? Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 14:23:49 -0700 Since this locomotive is a B6sa, that is correct. Not all PRR designed locomotives were equipped with the Belpaire firebox. Why this particular class was equipped with a radial stayed firebox instead of the more common (on the PRR) firebox is a mystery to me. Could be that the locomotive was designed for service on non-PRR roads, and be serviced by non-PRR workers, so it was equipped with a more common firebox staying...but that is only a guess on my part. Anybody out there know for sure? Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Sat, 31 Aug 2002 15:17:30 EDT VVA249@aol.com wrote: > Before you all wax eloquent on this - I believe that ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 17:42:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] DelMarVa B6sb? Bill, Not sure of the reason a Class B6sa was constructed. Although not plentyful like the sisters B8 and B6sb's classes, they did have 55 of them on their roster. Will read some tonight to see if a reason is given as to their being built. They appear identical to the B6sb except for the formentoned Radial Stay fire box.......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] DelMarVa B6sb? Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 15:04:48 -0700 Gary, I don't know why either, but as you say there were 55 of them, not counting the two for Washington Terminal (Nos 30 & 31). My guess is just that, a guess, but then it makes sense. At least on alternate third Tuesdays on months without an "R" in the name! And the very ineresting thing is that aside from the radial stayed firebox they were identical to the standard B6sb (and if the subclass is any indication, were constructed before the B6sb's were...let me check my copy of Edson...(imagine the "thinking" song from Jeopardy playing here!)...yup...in fact they were constructed from 1913-14, and B6sb's started to be built in 1916 through 1926. Interesting. On Sat, 31 Aug 2002 17:42:47 -0400 (EDT) mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) wrote: > Bill, > > Not sure of the reason a Class B6sa was constructed. > Although not > plentyful like the sisters B8 and B6sb's classes, they > did have 55 of > them on their roster. Will read some tonight to see if a > reason is given > as to their being built. They appear identical to the > B6sb except for > the formentoned Radial Stay fire box.......Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical > Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 18:24:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] DelMarVa B6sb? Bill, I too was Surprised to read the B6sa was built prior to the B6sb's. I thought they were built dring the same period. Now, here is my guess. Maybe it was just a stepping stone to the eventual B6sb? The B6 was not super heated, the B8 was not super heated. The B6sa was. The "s" meant superheated and the "a" meant a subclass. But still, why no Belpaire till the B6sb? Hmmm....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] Whistle Sign Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:09:37 -0500 I recently picked up a keystone shaped whistle sign. Sign is aluminum with Scotchbrite white with black border and "W". The back of the sign is black, not painted but also an adhesive covering. Signs is flat and does not have any holes. Looking on the web I found drawings from 1905 and 1968. The 1905's are cast and the 1968 signs are square. Any idea of a drawing for my particular sign or a date range? Sign is in mint condition and was stamped for the basic shape but looks cut for the upper keystone angles. Any help appreciated, Patrick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 22:40:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Don't Stand Me Still Jerry & List............ The song "Don't Stand Me Still" can be heard on the "PRR Power-Vol 4" video tape by Railroad Video Productions. A lot of PRR fans have this tape and don't realize the song is at the end. Maybe that's where you heard it. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Charles Ring W3NU Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 23:07:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Don't Stand Me Still zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > Jerry & List............ > > The song "Don't Stand Me Still" can be heard on the "PRR > Power-Vol 4" video tape by Railroad Video Productions. A lot of PRR fans > have this tape and don't realize the song is at the end. Maybe that's > where you heard it. > > Dave > Is it, as I faintly recall, based on the song "Dont Fence Me In"? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 23:48:02 -0400 From: IK3 Subject: Re: [PRR] Don't Stand Me Still zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > > Jerry & List............ > > The song "Don't Stand Me Still" can be heard on the "PRR > Power-Vol 4" video tape by Railroad Video Productions. A lot of PRR fans > have this tape and don't realize the song is at the end. Maybe that's > where you heard it. That's the one. -- Yrs., Ike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Randy Williamson" Subject: [PRR] Interesting Operation Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 23:19:35 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0176_01C276FC.D2EAE200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Browsing through the Eastern Region Employee Timetable and under Freight = Train Operations they have the following rule: Movements Over Firing Range - Frankford Arsenal 1155-A23. (Phila. Div.) Before entering Frankford Arsenal from the = Naught track, movements must stop and obtain permission from guard = stationed at gate. Movements must not be made over firing range while red flag at range = target is displayed or the red blinker lights are operating at range = target or Proof House. Randy http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.h= tm ------=_NextPart_000_0176_01C276FC.D2EAE200 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Browsing through the Eastern Region = Employee=20 Timetable and under Freight Train Operations they have the following=20 rule:
 
Movements Over Firing Range = - Frankford=20 Arsenal
1155-A23. (Phila. = Div.) =20 Before entering Frankford Arsenal from the Naught track, = movements must=20 stop and obtain permission from guard stationed at = gate.
    Movements must = not be made=20 over firing range while red flag at range target is displayed or the red = blinker=20 lights are operating at range target or Proof = House.
 
Randy
http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSche= dules/HOME.htm
------=_NextPart_000_0176_01C276FC.D2EAE200-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Randy Williamson" Subject: [PRR] Updates to my website Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 02:05:43 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C27714.07D228E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable After a long hiatus due to the terminal illness of my wife, I have = started to update my website. Making it easier to navigate was the = first to be finished. Will be adding new information to the website in = the coming weeks. Randy Williamson http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.h= tm ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C27714.07D228E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
After a long hiatus due to the terminal = illness of my wife, I have started to update my website.  = Making it=20 easier to navigate was the first to be finished. Will be adding new = information=20 to the website in the coming weeks.
 
Randy Williamson
http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSche= dules/HOME.htm
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C27714.07D228E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 03:27:19 -0700 From: Subject: [PRR] RE(PRR)B70 Gentlemen, Recently Chris Chaney asked if anyone here had the notes for building a layout quality B70 from that old stand by, the Athearn baggage. I have yet to see any responses, and would like to do the kitbash as well. Was there a response (which I missed), if so please include me in the loop. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 06:50:23 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] phosphorous bronze strips Hi, Does anyone know where I can get phosphorous bronze strips or sheets approx. .008 to .020 thick? Please reply to billlane@comcast.net Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 06:59:06 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Car Builders Cyclopedia Hi All, Does anyone know what year the Car Builders Cyclopedia 19th edition is? Please reply to billlane@comcast.net Thank you Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!!