From: "dfc PRR 7002" Subject: Re: [PRR] electrification Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 07:25:06 -0400 > I would like to know if anyone out there has the book, I >believe it's called "When the Steam Railroads Electrified ". The book is the third installment of a trilogy by Bill Middleton. The first two being "The Time of the Trolley" and "The Interurban Era". If you have an interest in electric traction this trio is worth the money. Thankfully Indiana University Press reprinted "When the Steam Railroads Electrified". Chapters cover Grand Central Terminal, New Haven, PRR into NYC, the Great Northern, the Milwaukee, several mining applications and Latin America. A new chapter brings one up to date on the Acela Express and electrification to Boston. The appendices include The technology of electrification; The motive power of electrification and The what, where and when of electrification. May I also suggest "Electric Traction on the Pennsylvania Railroad 1895-1968" by Michael Bezilla, copyright 1980 by Penn State University Press. Neither book has technical drawings, but I do not know what you are looking for. If you are close to a good book store go look before you buy or visit a person who has the books. Most museum archives on traction or the PRR may also have the books for you to peruse. DF Cramer PS: If you are near western Pennsylvania, you are welcome to visit me and view the books. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2002 16:25:55 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] electrification Michael Capone wrote: > I would like to know if anyone out there has the book, I believe it's called >"When the Steam Railroads Electrified ". Yes, little to add to previous comments. > Why I ask is I am thinking of buying the book and it's a bit expensive, and >I want to make sure it has the information I want. Not just the hows and whys, >I want info of the technical side of the electrification, i.e. how the locomotives > and the power plants were developed. How the testing was done and so forth. The only sources of detailed info i know of are various technical publications of the time. Some have been reprinted. Notably: "Electrification by Westinghouse' tho it has just one chapter on PRR. A better source is Proceedings of the AIEE (one of the predecessors to the IEEE). During the 30s, the designers presented professional papers at various AIEE meetings covering the electrification, power system locomotives, etc. Not available for purchase, but library work might find them, somewhere... best dwp ...the net of a million lies... -??? (tell me who,,,) There are many web sites, which say many things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Keith Pomroy" Subject: RE: [PRR] electrification Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2002 22:52:41 -0400 Listers, I also would recommend Carl Condit's book on New York's steam railroads and their electrifications. Condit is fairly technical both on the mechanics of electric motors and railroad applications and the geology of the New York area. The railroad map of the region begins to make some sense once you see the geological challenges the PRR and others faced. Plus, the book is a good primer on the development of the electric motor. (The B&O's pioneering electrification in Baltimore gets a lot of attention too.) Best, --Keith -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of davep Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 4:26 PM To: Michael Capone; PRR@yahoogroups.com Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] electrification Michael Capone wrote: > I would like to know if anyone out there has the book, I believe it's called >"When the Steam Railroads Electrified ". Yes, little to add to previous comments. > Why I ask is I am thinking of buying the book and it's a bit expensive, and >I want to make sure it has the information I want. Not just the hows and whys, >I want info of the technical side of the electrification, i.e. how the locomotives > and the power plants were developed. How the testing was done and so forth. The only sources of detailed info i know of are various technical publications of the time. Some have been reprinted. Notably: "Electrification by Westinghouse' tho it has just one chapter on PRR. A better source is Proceedings of the AIEE (one of the predecessors to the IEEE). During the 30s, the designers presented professional papers at various AIEE meetings covering the electrification, power system locomotives, etc. Not available for purchase, but library work might find them, somewhere... best dwp ...the net of a million lies... -??? (tell me who,,,) There are many web sites, which say many things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 01:29:50 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] dispel a few J-1 myths --part1_66.21dac73a.2a2b074e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, Are you steering these folks from first hand knowledge and recollection of from the photos (color and b&w) you've seen? I have a very good friend who flew helicopters during 1969 in Vietnam. He told me a story about the markings on one of his Company's birds in great detail. He remembered these personal markings as yellow. Well, one night we pulled out some old slides and there was the Huey just the way he remembered, except the markings were red. Photos especially color a a great help. One problem is that the standard roster shot at that time would have been a 3/4 wedge from track level rods down. You'll have to really look to find any down on shots of the tender. I have a copy of "THE PAINTING OF P.R.R. LOCOMOTIVES AND TENDERS" Special Publication No. 1, published by the Pennsylvania Research and Information Association (1972). The painting instructions they provide are dated October 8, 1929. While this information predates the J-1 class by some fourteen years there is considerable evidence that these paint practices continued through the end of steam operations. Dark Green Locomotive Finish (DGLF), the railroad called for the all locomotive wheels*, trailer truck frame*, wooden pilot beam, cylinder head, steam chest castings, cylinder jackets, boiler jacket (including inside cab), headlight, bell frame, sand box, dome, air reservoirs, running board facing strips, cab exterior (including doors) valve motion (painted parts), tender cistern exterior (sides, back, front end except coal space, molding strip between cistern and frame, tender frame (wood). to be. Black, the railroad called for locomotive wheels*, trailer truck frame*, steel pilot beam, pilot beam braces, round number plate (background), engine truck (except wheels), frames, braces, hand rails, running boards and brackets (except facing), steps, pipes, fixtures, brake rigging, deck plate, tender frame (steel), tender steps, tender trucks and wheels, tender coal space. *Please note DGLF and Black were optional for locomotive wheels and trailer truck frame. Front End Paint was used on the smokebox, stack, firebox (exposed portion), and the ash pan. Freight Car Color on the roof above rain gutters (repainting when only one coat is applied), the tender top of cistern (including rear of coal space). Three Parts Freight Car Color and One Part Black on wood cabs roof above rain gutters (repainting when two coats are applied). On steel cab roof above rain gutters (repainting when only one coat is applied). Equal Parts Freight Car Color and Black on wood cabs roof above rain gutters (new cabs), steel cab roof above rain gutters (new cabs and repainting when two or three coats are applied). Sash Color used on the cab window sash (side and rear). Interior Cab Green to the cab interior, including doors and seat boxes. Buff Lettering Color on freight and switching locomotives. All lettering on locomotive and tender, round number plate (number and border). This has gotten quite long, sorry about that. I do hope this helps. If you have other questions about this please contact me off list. Ed Martin... banned by Ed Hall, Director Cajon Division, Pacific Southwest Region, National Model Railroad Association --part1_66.21dac73a.2a2b074e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill,

Are you steering these folks from first hand knowledge and recollection of from the photos (color and b&w) you've seen?

I have a very good friend who flew helicopters during 1969 in Vietnam. He told me a story about the markings on one of his Company's birds in great detail. He remembered these personal markings as yellow. Well, one night we pulled out some old slides and there was the Huey just the way he remembered, except the markings were red.

Photos especially color a a great help. One problem is that the standard roster shot at that time would have been a 3/4 wedge from track level rods down. You'll have to really look to find any down on shots of the tender.

I have a copy of "THE PAINTING OF P.R.R. LOCOMOTIVES AND TENDERS" Special Publication No. 1, published by the Pennsylvania Research and Information Association (1972). The painting instructions they provide are dated October 8, 1929. While this information predates the J-1 class by some fourteen years there is considerable evidence that these paint practices continued through the end of steam operations.

Dark Green Locomotive Finish (DGLF), the railroad called for the all locomotive wheels*, trailer truck frame*, wooden pilot beam, cylinder head, steam chest castings, cylinder jackets, boiler jacket (including inside cab), headlight, bell frame, sand box, dome, air reservoirs, running board facing strips, cab exterior (including doors) valve motion (painted parts), tender cistern exterior (sides, back, front end except coal space, molding strip between cistern and frame, tender frame (wood). to be.

Black, the railroad called for locomotive wheels*, trailer truck frame*, steel pilot beam, pilot beam braces, round number plate (background), engine truck (except wheels), frames, braces, hand rails, running boards and brackets (except facing), steps, pipes, fixtures, brake rigging, deck plate, tender frame (steel), tender steps, tender trucks and wheels, tender coal space.

*Please note DGLF and Black were optional for locomotive wheels and trailer truck frame.

Front End Paint was used on the smokebox, stack, firebox (exposed portion), and the ash pan.

Freight Car Color on the roof above rain gutters (repainting when only one coat is applied), the tender top of cistern (including rear of coal space).

Three Parts Freight Car Color and One Part Black on wood cabs roof above rain gutters (repainting when two coats are applied). On steel cab roof above rain gutters (repainting when only one coat is applied).

Equal Parts Freight Car Color and Black on wood cabs roof above rain gutters (new cabs), steel cab roof above rain gutters (new cabs and repainting when two or three coats are applied).

Sash Color used on the cab window sash (side and rear).

Interior Cab Green to the cab interior, including doors and seat boxes.

Buff Lettering Color on freight and switching locomotives. All lettering on locomotive and tender, round number plate (number and border).

This has gotten quite long, sorry about that. I do hope this helps. If you have other questions about this please contact me off list.

Ed Martin... banned by Ed Hall, Director Cajon Division, Pacific Southwest Region, National Model Railroad Association --part1_66.21dac73a.2a2b074e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WBROUTE@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 11:47:56 EDT Subject: [PRR] PC/PRR car question --part1_48.c4dcaef.2a2b982c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, everyone I'm trying to help out a friend who took a picture back in the 70's of a PC car that is definitely X-PRR the car number is #495042. I have posted a photo on Trainorders.com I will include the link, although I'm not sure you can view the PIC without being a member. Right now I think you can see it even if your not a member. Thanks in advance. Kristopher Crawley --part1_48.c4dcaef.2a2b982c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, everyone I'm trying to help out a friend who took a picture back in the 70's of a PC car that is definitely X-PRR the car number is #495042.  I have posted a photo on Trainorders.com I will include the link, although I'm not sure you can view the PIC without being a member.  Right now I think you can see it even if your not a member.  

<http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?f=2&i=79293&t=79293>

Thanks in advance.  Kristopher Crawley --part1_48.c4dcaef.2a2b982c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 12:16:37 -0400 Subject: [PRR] P J & B [ Princeton Junction and Back] From: "M. E Allen" For any one who actually pays attention to these things: I just finished my annual three days at Princeton University's annual bacchanal celebrating the rites of spring and Budwiser. The Class of 1967 [35th] traditionally has a railroad theme for their parties. This year's T-Shirt was in MOW yellow with a large black keystone on the back lettered "P J & B Railroad Company" MEA ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 12:43:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PC/PRR car question By looking at the photo, it appears to be a old PRR X29 boxcar modified for MOW service. Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 14:50:12 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] S Scale H30A Hi All, Here is a scan of my just finished S Scale H30A. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/S_ScaleH30A.jpg I usually have about a 1-month attention span for any project. This must have been one month + 1 hour because, I just discovered it in my collection ready for paint after I reworked it and details added some time ago. I was very happy that I had the Builders photo, so I dove right in! The Return When Empty To Mapleton PA was made up of "Mapleton" from individual decal letters. FUN FUN FUN! I do not have the correct trucks as it appeared in the Builders photo, they are correct for the H30. I keep showing the S Scale and PRR Internet community my work because I want to show that the Mighty PRR is alive and well in S Scale today. It is thriving. This is not a scratchbuilt car. It was produced by River Raisin Models http://riverraisinmodels.com about 14 years ago. I am happy to say that the ranks of HO and O scale are 1 each less as of last week because of my promotional efforts. Enjoy, Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 21:00:18 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Techmoeller address From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Thanks to everyone who responded. Someone e-mailed John and he e-mailed me asking what was up before I had a chance to send one to him. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 02 Jun 2002 22:40:37 -0400 From: dwsnrhs@aol.com Subject: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum Commentary by David W. Seidel Horseshoe Curve Chapter Historian The announced financial crisis at Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum of May 23, 2002, is, of course, disconcerting and a cause of concern to the Horseshoe Curve Chapter. Our long association, if you will read the Chapter history on our webpage, details this history. The newspaper articles are self-explanatory. But by way of confirmation, the financial difficulties at the museum are not due to mis-management or malfeasance. Much commentary by other pens offer probable causes, some of which may be valid, but uninformed speculation can be deadly to the museum's current predicament. Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum, admittedly, has grown and developed significantly since the doors opened on the original building September 21, 1980. As one of founding members (and there were many of us), we did, in fact, have a dream for Altoona in founding this museum facility. The significant improvements with the Horseshoe Curve National Historic Site Development (1992) and the development of the Master Mechanic's Building (1998) have been dramatic. Speaking for myself, I probably never thought the museum would be the world-class facility it is today, in such a short span of time. In saying this, I must add that because it is "world-class", it is, and remains, a source of great pride to see such a facility in Altoona, Pennsylvania. And the improvements continue with the K-4 project and the roundhouse construction. But, gate receipts and other revenue from visitors, railfans, and the public at large are what keep the doors open. Daily operating expenses are high due to the significant electronics, specialized lighting, and of course, in winter, heat and maintenance. But this was a known reality at the time of development. A significant drop in tourism since the 911 disaster is partly to blame. Admittedly the quality of Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum would be more typically located in a larger population center. What is the solution? Better marketing? Better financial savvy? Retrenchment? As painful as it must have been, the museum board has placed the survival of the facility as the top most priority. In doing so, staff positions including management have been sacrificed, as has the current Board of Directors. But, please understand that this Board of Directors have all been highly dedicated people genuinely interested in the mission of the museum. A major re-organization is now underway, tapping other talent in the local financial and business community, and a business plan is being developed. One of the foremost assets of Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum has been the contagious and infectious enthusiasm of Mr. Cummins McNitt who came to the museum in the development phase of the Master Mechanics Building as Curator, and most recently as Executive Director. The responsibilities of any Executive Director are many and, to paraphrase former President Harry S. Truman, "the buck stops here" at the Executive Directors desk. However, from my perspective as a docent/volunteer, I sincerely hope Mr. McNitt is retained for his demonstrated dedication and the many talents he obviously contributes to ARMM. As plans evolve for re-organization and re-structuring a new museum Board, we as the railfan community, can either be part of the solution or be part of the problem. We all have this great forum in the year 2002 of the "world wide web", where communication is instantaneous and literally world-wide in seconds. We all have our opinions, rightly or wrongly, for that is the american way. But Freedom of Speech, while one of our basic constitutional rights, is also one of responsibility. Uninformed speculation, hearsay, and inuendo can be cancerous. It isn't just Altoona's museum, it is "OUR" museum. Take pride in all of it for it is a heritage that represents us all. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 08:06:29 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] S Scale H30A Bill, Nice looking car! I was going to pick up the F&C HO H30A at the recent SER NMRA meet, but when I talked to them, they indicated that the H30 would be available shortly (~3 months), and since the H30A is too late for me... Happy Rails Bruce >Hi All, > >Here is a scan of my just finished S Scale H30A. >http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/S_ScaleH30A.jpg I usually have about >a 1-month attention span for any project. This must have been one month + 1 >hour because, I just discovered it in my collection ready for paint after I >reworked it and details added some time ago. I was very happy that I had the >Builders photo, so I dove right in! The Return When Empty To Mapleton PA was >made up of "Mapleton" from individual decal letters. FUN FUN FUN! > >I do not have the correct trucks as it appeared in the Builders photo, they >are correct for the H30. I keep showing the S Scale and PRR Internet >community my work because I want to show that the Mighty PRR is alive and >well in S Scale today. It is thriving. This is not a scratchbuilt car. It >was produced by River Raisin Models http://riverraisinmodels.com about 14 >years ago. I am happy to say that the ranks of HO and O scale are 1 each >less as of last week because of my promotional efforts. > >Enjoy, > >Bill > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] P2k Vs. Walthers Fa's Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 16:15:57 +0000 What are the siginificant differences bewteen Walthers FA+B's vs. P2K? Thanks. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 12:31:06 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] P2k Vs. Walthers Fa's On Mon, 3 Jun 2002 ndbprr@att.net wrote: > What are the siginificant differences bewteen Walthers > FA+B's vs. P2K? Thanks. Norm Bell The Walthers (ex-Train Miniatures) shell is crude in comparison, though I vaguely recall it to be dimensionally accurate. I sold all of mine off. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 17:24:51 -0400 From: Michael Capone Subject: [PRR] electrification This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_jgQCZpJ9ANJfsOoAuY+NlQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Thank you all for your input. I am grateful to all, I've ordered the book (it has been updated to include the Amtrak part to Boston). I can't wait to start reading it. Though I'm also looking for a copy of "Electric Traction on the Pennsylvania Railroad". Someone wrote to me where I could find it, I e-mailed the bookstore with no answer as of yet. Once again thanks to all!! Mike --Boundary_(ID_jgQCZpJ9ANJfsOoAuY+NlQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Thank you all for your input. I am grateful to all, I've ordered the book (it has been updated to include the Amtrak part to Boston). I can't wait to start reading it. Though I'm also looking for a copy of "Electric Traction on the Pennsylvania Railroad". Someone wrote to me where I could find it, I e-mailed the bookstore with no answer as of yet. Once again thanks to all!!
 
Mike
--Boundary_(ID_jgQCZpJ9ANJfsOoAuY+NlQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "sjlash" Subject: [PRR] Off topic, photo in Ball Book Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 21:17:18 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C20B44.0AF141A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gentleman, This is sort of off topic. I am looking to recreate the = scene in Don Ball's book " ... Pennsy 40's and 50s..." on page 90. = There is a box car on the float that appears to be a single door car = painted silver with the Northern Pacific red, black and white circular = logo on the side of the "A" end, and a lettered circular stencil in red = on the door. Could some one steer me in the direction of either the = model of this or the decals? Please contact me off list. The other = cars on the float are identifiable. Thanks Jim sjlash@tcis.net=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C20B44.0AF141A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gentleman,  This is sort of off = topic.  I=20 am  looking to recreate the scene in Don Ball's book " ... = Pennsy 40's=20 and 50s..."   on page 90.  There is a box car on the = float that=20 appears to be a single door  car painted silver with the Northern = Pacific=20 red, black and white circular logo on the side of the =  "A" end,=20 and a lettered circular stencil in red on the door.  Could some one = steer=20 me in the direction of either the model of this or the decals?  = Please=20 contact me off list.  The other cars on the float are=20 identifiable.   Thanks Jim   sjlash@tcis.net =
------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C20B44.0AF141A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 22:47:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY In a message dated 6/2/02 10:49:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dwsnrhs@aol.com writes: << One of the foremost assets of Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum has been the contagious and infectious enthusiasm of Mr. Cummins McNitt who came to the museum in the development phase of the Master Mechanics Building as Curator, and most recently as Executive Director. The responsibilities of any Executive Director are many and, to paraphrase former President Harry S. Truman, "the buck stops here" >> I do not know the man or the situation, but if "the buck truly stops here" shouldn't he be the first cargo jettisoned to lighten the load for survival, rather than kept on the payroll, to captain the sinking ship? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 09:40:50 -0400 I do agree. Lighten the load and start anew. As the Russians say- Tuffshitskee. Mismanagement- gets 'em every time. I am all for a new board that will adhear to policy and procedure keeping the mission of the museum at heart and mind. Their is no reason why a museum with a wealth of history as Altoona cannot hold its own. If the exonerated board could not handle the job, it was their right to step up and admit to their inability to do the task at hand and allow a plan to be implemented to keep the expansion project on target. If they knew the mechanics building project was going to put them in the red, then why attempt it? Greg V ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 10:47 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY > In a message dated 6/2/02 10:49:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dwsnrhs@aol.com > writes: > > << One of the foremost assets of Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum has > been the contagious and infectious enthusiasm of Mr. Cummins McNitt who came > to the museum in the development phase of the Master Mechanics Building as > Curator, and most recently as Executive Director. The responsibilities of any > Executive Director are many and, to paraphrase former President Harry S. > Truman, "the buck stops here" >> > > I do not know the man or the situation, but if "the buck truly stops here" > shouldn't he be the first cargo jettisoned to lighten the load for survival, > rather than kept on the payroll, to captain the sinking ship? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "sjlash" Subject: Re: [PRR] Off topic, photo in Ball Book Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 16:29:59 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C20BE5.12238810 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evan,and All, Thanks for the reply.. I had already checked the same = sources. A note to one of the decal manufacturers provided the info. A = 50' Mechanical reefer and Microscale decals. Thanks again Jim Lash = PS An email address for NP Hist Society is, from my info, not = available ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RDG2124@aol.com=20 To: sjlash@tcis.net=20 Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 11:03 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Off topic, photo in Ball Book Jim,=20 What scale. Believe that Branchline offers/offered a 40' car in = this scheme. Do not know Branchline's website so check with our = sponsor, Merchandise Service, about this car.=20 If all else fails, then contact the NP technical and historical = society.=20 Good Luck,=20 Evan Leisey=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C20BE5.12238810 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Evan,and All, Thanks for the = reply.. I had=20 already checked the same sources.  A note to one of the decal = manufacturers=20 provided the info.  A 50' Mechanical reefer and Microscale = decals. =20 Thanks again  Jim Lash     PS  An email=20 address  for NP Hist Society is, from my info, not = available
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com=20
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 = 11:03=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Off topic, = photo in=20 Ball Book

Jim, =

 What=20 scale.   Believe that Branchline offers/offered a 40' car in = this=20 scheme.  Do not know Branchline's website so check with our = sponsor,=20 Merchandise Service, about this car.

 If all else fails,=20  then contact the NP technical and historical society. =

 Good=20 Luck,

  Evan Leisey = ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C20BE5.12238810-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] RATS! Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:55:08 -0400 Listers, A friend of mine is modeling an urban terminal in the late 30's-40's. He wants to have a B1 Rat. as his terminal switcher. We were wondering about the Keystones on the side as show here: http://community.webshots.com/scripts/slides.fcgi?end=0&first=1&albumID=3752 8921&security=SdTVgl&pos=6&time=-1 We were wondering if they were the same size as the numbered keystones on the GG1 since those are the only ones I can find where you can put your own #'s in. Also the Rats had number keystones on the ends. Were they the same size? I know Champ sells 4 keystones with 1 unnumbered and Microscale has a sheet that has 2 blanks but I believe they are all GG1 keystones. If the B1's are not the same size anyone know where to get them? Thanks Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 12:01:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] RATS! From: Jerry Britton On 6/5/02 11:55 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > A friend of mine is modeling an urban terminal in the late 30's-40's. He > wants to have a B1 Rat. as his terminal switcher. We were wondering about > the Keystones on the side as show here: > http://community.webshots.com/scripts/slides.fcgi?end=0&first=1&albumID=3752 > 8921&security=SdTVgl&pos=6&time=-1 > > We were wondering if they were the same size as the numbered keystones on > the GG1 since those are the only ones I can find where you can put your own > #'s in. Also the Rats had number keystones on the ends. Were they the same > size? I know Champ sells 4 keystones with 1 unnumbered and Microscale has a > sheet that has 2 blanks but I believe they are all GG1 keystones. If the > B1's are not the same size anyone know where to get them? > I'm sure Bruce Smith will chime in as soon as he gets this. He researched this years ago, when he custom finished a B1 for me...before I switched to N scale! He did a great job, and put the numbers inside the keystones. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 11:55:47 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] RATS! >On 6/5/02 11:55 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > >> A friend of mine is modeling an urban terminal in the late 30's-40's. He >> wants to have a B1 Rat. as his terminal switcher. We were wondering about >> the Keystones on the side as show here: >> http://community.webshots.com/scripts/slides.fcgi?end=0&first=1&albumID=3752 >> 8921&security=SdTVgl&pos=6&time=-1 >> >> We were wondering if they were the same size as the numbered keystones on >> the GG1 since those are the only ones I can find where you can put your own >> #'s in. Also the Rats had number keystones on the ends. Were they the same >> size? I know Champ sells 4 keystones with 1 unnumbered and Microscale has a >> sheet that has 2 blanks but I believe they are all GG1 keystones. If the >> B1's are not the same size anyone know where to get them? >> >I'm sure Bruce Smith will chime in as soon as he gets this. He researched >this years ago, when he custom finished a B1 for me...before I switched to N >scale! Hi gang! On the sides: 18" keystone, with number, centered on sides On the front/back: 12" keystone, with number on end doors We got the blank 18" keystones from Champ. My computer is really acting cranky today ("I'm sorry, but I cannot find your hard drive...") so I can't check for you, but they have a "keystone" set... Happy rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] RATS! Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 14:15:57 -0400 Bruce, What did you do about the 12" keystones for the end doors? Chris -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 12:56 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] RATS! >On 6/5/02 11:55 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > >> A friend of mine is modeling an urban terminal in the late 30's-40's. He >> wants to have a B1 Rat. as his terminal switcher. We were wondering about >> the Keystones on the side as show here: >> http://community.webshots.com/scripts/slides.fcgi?end=0&first=1&albumID=3752 >> 8921&security=SdTVgl&pos=6&time=-1 >> >> We were wondering if they were the same size as the numbered keystones on >> the GG1 since those are the only ones I can find where you can put your own >> #'s in. Also the Rats had number keystones on the ends. Were they the same >> size? I know Champ sells 4 keystones with 1 unnumbered and Microscale has a >> sheet that has 2 blanks but I believe they are all GG1 keystones. If the >> B1's are not the same size anyone know where to get them? >> >I'm sure Bruce Smith will chime in as soon as he gets this. He researched >this years ago, when he custom finished a B1 for me...before I switched to N >scale! Hi gang! On the sides: 18" keystone, with number, centered on sides On the front/back: 12" keystone, with number on end doors We got the blank 18" keystones from Champ. My computer is really acting cranky today ("I'm sorry, but I cannot find your hard drive...") so I can't check for you, but they have a "keystone" set... Happy rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 17:50:01 -0500 Subject: [PRR] GLa hopper From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" I have scanned an image of the GLa hopper at Hamburg, NY. There are actually two images. One the size of the original print and one enlarged so you can actually see the markings. Anyone want a copy - - send an e-mail. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 07:29:06 -0400 From: Rick Miskell Subject: [PRR] "MS60" Hi Group. I've noticed several references to an "MS60" on "24 hrs at Harrisburg" and in a couple other references I've accumulated but can't find this as a class anywhere. The same references note the existance of B60 and B60a as well as X-42's. Should I assume (never safe that's why I'm asking) this is really a B60 assigned to mail storage duties or is it a distinct class that no one seems to have data available for on the net? Thanks in advance. Rick Miskell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 09:02:29 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] RATS! --------------901E6941A5C7F37A21F801CC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have you considered printing them on a color laser printer and just gluing them on the model? I have been doing this for fluted, streamlined passenger car letterboards for some time now. Believe me its a hell of lot easier than spelling out RICHMOND FREDRICKSBURG AND POTOMAC one letter at a time from an alphabet set! When appropriate, and this may be one such case, I print them on clear plastic sheets used for transparency projections. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Chany, Christopher" wrote: > Bruce, > > What did you do about the 12" keystones for the end doors? > > Chris > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruce F. Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 12:56 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] RATS! > > >On 6/5/02 11:55 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > > > >> A friend of mine is modeling an urban terminal in the late 30's-40's. He > >> wants to have a B1 Rat. as his terminal switcher. We were wondering > about > >> the Keystones on the side as show here: > >> > http://community.webshots.com/scripts/slides.fcgi?end=0&first=1&albumID=3752 > >> 8921&security=SdTVgl&pos=6&time=-1 > >> > >> We were wondering if they were the same size as the numbered keystones on > >> the GG1 since those are the only ones I can find where you can put your > own > >> #'s in. Also the Rats had number keystones on the ends. Were they the > same > >> size? I know Champ sells 4 keystones with 1 unnumbered and Microscale > has a > >> sheet that has 2 blanks but I believe they are all GG1 keystones. If the > >> B1's are not the same size anyone know where to get them? > >> > >I'm sure Bruce Smith will chime in as soon as he gets this. He researched > >this years ago, when he custom finished a B1 for me...before I switched to > N > >scale! > > Hi gang! > On the sides: 18" keystone, with number, centered on sides > On the front/back: 12" keystone, with number on end doors > > We got the blank 18" keystones from Champ. My computer is really acting > cranky today ("I'm sorry, but I cannot find your hard drive...") so I can't > check for you, but they have a "keystone" set... > > Happy rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin > Franklin --------------901E6941A5C7F37A21F801CC Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have you considered printing them on a color laser printer and just gluing them on the model?   I have been doing this for fluted, streamlined passenger car letterboards for some time now.   Believe me its a hell of lot easier than spelling out RICHMOND FREDRICKSBURG AND POTOMAC one letter at a time from an alphabet set!  When appropriate, and this may be one such case, I print them on clear plastic sheets used for transparency projections.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================
"Chany, Christopher" wrote:

Bruce,

What did you do about the 12" keystones for the end doors?

Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce F. Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 12:56 PM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] RATS!

>On 6/5/02 11:55 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote:
>
>> A friend of mine is modeling an urban terminal in the late 30's-40's.  He
>> wants to have a B1 Rat. as his terminal switcher.  We were wondering
about
>> the Keystones on the side as show here:
>>
http://community.webshots.com/scripts/slides.fcgi?end=0&first=1&albumID=3752
>> 8921&security=SdTVgl&pos=6&time=-1
>>
>> We were wondering if they were the same size as the numbered keystones on
>> the GG1 since those are the only ones I can find where you can put your
own
>> #'s in.  Also the Rats had number keystones on the ends.  Were they the
same
>> size?  I know Champ sells 4 keystones with 1 unnumbered and Microscale
has a
>> sheet that has 2 blanks but I believe they are all GG1 keystones.  If the
>> B1's are not the same size anyone know where to get them?
>>
>I'm sure Bruce Smith will chime in as soon as he gets this. He researched
>this years ago, when he custom finished a B1 for me...before I switched to
N
>scale!

Hi gang!
On the sides:  18" keystone, with number, centered on sides
On the front/back:  12" keystone, with number on end doors

We got the blank 18" keystones from Champ.  My computer is really acting
cranky today ("I'm sorry, but I cannot find your hard drive...") so I can't
check for you, but they have a "keystone" set...

Happy rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin
Franklin

--------------901E6941A5C7F37A21F801CC-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 09:09:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] RATS! From: Jerry Britton On 6/6/02 9:02 AM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > Have you considered printing them on a color laser printer and just gluing > them on the model? I have been doing this for fluted, streamlined passenger > car letterboards for some time now. Believe me its a hell of lot easier than > spelling out RICHMOND FREDRICKSBURG AND POTOMAC one letter at a time from an > alphabet set! When appropriate, and this may be one such case, I print them > on clear plastic sheets used for transparency projections. > Both Microscale and Champ sell blank decal film for use in computer printers. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 12:31:11 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] RATS! --------------060607030706060105060602 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [snip] >> >Both Microscale and Champ sell blank decal film for use in computer >printers. > Also Walthers... I have made "Cornwall Railroad" decals for list member Nick Kulp on my color ink jet printer (I use the Walthers labels as they specifically say ink jet)... Before applying them, seal them with Dullcoat so the ink doesn't run. That MAY not be necessary with a color laser (as it doesn't really use ink)... Jeff Warner --------------060607030706060105060602 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit [snip] 

Both Microscale and Champ sell blank decal film for use in computer
printers.
Also Walthers...

I have made "Cornwall Railroad" decals for list member Nick Kulp on my color ink jet printer (I use the Walthers labels as they specifically say ink jet)...  Before applying them, seal them with Dullcoat so the ink doesn't run.  That MAY not be necessary with a color laser (as it doesn't really use ink)...

Jeff Warner
--------------060607030706060105060602-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 12:52:32 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Steam class repairs From: prrq2 I have been reading the interview with Clair Clugh in the Summer 1996 "Keystone". He mentions that there were 5 classes of steam repair, class 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. He does not elaborate on them, but infers that class 1 was the heaviest repair. Does anyone know what sort of repairs were included in each of the classes? This is a most interesting interview, lots of great info. TIA -- Bill Ayers Remembering the PRR in Crestline http://crestline.pennsyrr.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] K4 Question Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 14:38:34 -0400

I just got one of the new Spectrum K4's and I am considering doing some detail changes to make it more representative of the Post-War version. I am using the Kris Kollar article as a guide, but I am wondering about the water hatch. I have seen a few photos of Post-War K4 without the antenna. Does this mean that some K4's kept the original water hatch location if they did not have the antenna?
Thanks,
Eric
----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 12:29:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Bobby Bryzinski Subject: [PRR] South Wind drumhead Does anyone know of any good color photos or references for the "South Wind" passenger train drumhead? I have a good black and white photo from vol.II of Beebe's "The Trains We Rode", but no color info. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Bob Bryzinski __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam class repairs Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 15:37:56 -0400 I rember the tour guide at the shop tour at Steamtown going into a lot of detail about class repairs, what was included in each, etc. (This was a few years ago - before 1361 arrived. They were rebuilding their 0-6-0.) An e-mail to them might get some information. I'm also interested, so does anyone have a list they can send out via the list, or direct us to a website? I don't remember seeing anything on www.steamlocomotive.com about it. Bill Bigler Modeling Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "prrq2" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 1:52 PM Subject: [PRR] Steam class repairs > I have been reading the interview with Clair Clugh in the Summer 1996 > "Keystone". He mentions that there were 5 classes of steam repair, class 1, > 2, 3, 4, and 5. He does not elaborate on them, but infers that class 1 was > the heaviest repair. Does anyone know what sort of repairs were included in > each of the classes? This is a most interesting interview, lots of great > info. > > TIA > -- > Bill Ayers > Remembering the PRR in Crestline > http://crestline.pennsyrr.com/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam class repairs Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 15:57:45 -0400 Speaking of steam locomotive class repairs, does anyone know whether the shops at Renovo performed all classes of repairs? Especially during WWII? Does anyone know of information on which locmotive classes received which class of repair by year in Renovo? (I'll be really surprised if anyone , even on this list, can provide that last one, with the possible exception of Greg Stone [Mr. Renovo]) Bill Bigler Modeling Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: "prrq2" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam class repairs > I rember the tour guide at the shop tour at Steamtown going into a lot of > detail about class repairs, what was included in each, etc. (This was a few > years ago - before 1361 arrived. They were rebuilding their 0-6-0.) An > e-mail to them might get some information. I'm also interested, so does > anyone have a list they can send out via the list, or direct us to a > website? I don't remember seeing anything on www.steamlocomotive.com about > it. > > Bill Bigler > Modeling Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "prrq2" > To: "PRR-Talk" > Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 1:52 PM > Subject: [PRR] Steam class repairs > > > > I have been reading the interview with Clair Clugh in the Summer 1996 > > "Keystone". He mentions that there were 5 classes of steam repair, class > 1, > > 2, 3, 4, and 5. He does not elaborate on them, but infers that class 1 was > > the heaviest repair. Does anyone know what sort of repairs were included > in > > each of the classes? This is a most interesting interview, lots of great > > info. > > > > TIA > > -- > > Bill Ayers > > Remembering the PRR in Crestline > > http://crestline.pennsyrr.com/ > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] South Wind drumhead Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:02:15 -0400 If you can get a copy of the Tomar drumhead you should have the proper colors. Chris -----Original Message----- From: Bobby Bryzinski [mailto:bbryzinski@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 3:30 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] South Wind drumhead Does anyone know of any good color photos or references for the "South Wind" passenger train drumhead? I have a good black and white photo from vol.II of Beebe's "The Trains We Rode", but no color info. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Bob Bryzinski __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 18:38:13 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Dennison Switchmens' Strike, 1922 In a message dated 5/30/02 8:15:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > I worked as a PRR brakeman on the Lake Region (E & A) for several years > while > attending college. The authors comments about the 1941 firemen made me > remember friction between the "old timers,"those that hired out in the > 20's,and those that had a 1925 seniority date. My memory, which I don't > have much of any more was that the old timers had a grudge against the > 1925 > men. I never knew what that was - but I think it was a class of trainmen > that was hired during a strike. Does any one know if there were strike > breakers hired in 1925 or is just a case of an assumption a youngster make > that had no basis in fact. This was not mentioned in the book > One of those things that I picked up verbally years ago, and may or may not be completely correct -- Up to 1922, Dennison was the western end of many Panhandle Div runs out of Pittsburgh -- the mileage works out about right for a 110 mile day Pittsburgh to Dennison and Dennison to Columbus. Dennison had a roundhouse, even shops, and a large classification yard. However, about this time, apparently longer runs with a train became possible. Also, since Dennison supported no branches and only a modest originating traffic, there was even less reason for reclassifying trains there. Then (the story goes) the switchmen went out on strike. I don't know how the local switchmen behaved during the strike, but after settlement, the PRR (always one to do things their way) closed the Dennison Yard and ripped it out. By 1972, when I first saw the site, it had become a healthy second-growth forest lying on the north side of the main and east of town. Of course, today, that's not that unusual for a historic Pennsy yard. It occurs to me that the other effects of closing Dennison were: 1. to make more desirable those engines who could both grunt over the Panhandle Division and then make speed west to Columbus. 2. to focus terminal facilities at Columbus. I wish for more info on how PRR in Columbus grew in between 1893 (I have a map) and WW2. Rick Tipton Now contemplating an HO layout set in Columbus in the 50's or 60's. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 18:38:13 EDT Subject: [PRR] Dennison Switchmens' Strike, 1922 --part1_d8.18c2d6c1.2a313e55_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/30/02 8:15:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > I worked as a PRR brakeman on the Lake Region (E & A) for several years > while > attending college. The authors comments about the 1941 firemen made me > remember friction between the "old timers,"those that hired out in the > 20's,and those that had a 1925 seniority date. My memory, which I don't > have much of any more was that the old timers had a grudge against the > 1925 > men. I never knew what that was - but I think it was a class of trainmen > that was hired during a strike. Does any one know if there were strike > breakers hired in 1925 or is just a case of an assumption a youngster make > that had no basis in fact. This was not mentioned in the book > One of those things that I picked up verbally years ago, and may or may not be completely correct -- Up to 1922, Dennison was the western end of many Panhandle Div runs out of Pittsburgh -- the mileage works out about right for a 110 mile day Pittsburgh to Dennison and Dennison to Columbus. Dennison had a roundhouse, even shops, and a large classification yard. However, about this time, apparently longer runs with a train became possible. Also, since Dennison supported no branches and only a modest originating traffic, there was even less reason for reclassifying trains there. Then (the story goes) the switchmen went out on strike. I don't know how the local switchmen behaved during the strike, but after settlement, the PRR (always one to do things their way) closed the Dennison Yard and ripped it out. By 1972, when I first saw the site, it had become a healthy second-growth forest lying on the north side of the main and east of town. Of course, today, that's not that unusual for a historic Pennsy yard. It occurs to me that the other effects of closing Dennison were: 1. to make more desirable those engines who could both grunt over the Panhandle Division and then make speed west to Columbus. 2. to focus terminal facilities at Columbus. I wish for more info on how PRR in Columbus grew in between 1893 (I have a map) and WW2. Rick Tipton Now contemplating an HO layout set in Columbus in the 50's or 60's. --part1_d8.18c2d6c1.2a313e55_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 5/30/02 8:15:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


I worked as a PRR brakeman on the Lake Region (E & A) for several years while
attending college.  The authors comments about the 1941 firemen made me
remember friction between the "old timers,"those that hired out in the
20's,and those that  had a 1925 seniority date.  My memory, which I don't
have much of any more was that  the old timers had a grudge against the 1925
men.  I never knew what that was - but I think it was a class of trainmen
that was hired during a strike.  Does any one know if there were strike
breakers hired in 1925 or is just a case of an assumption a youngster make
that had no basis in fact.  This was not mentioned in the book


One of those things that I picked up verbally years ago, and may or may not be completely correct --

Up to 1922, Dennison was the western end of many Panhandle Div runs out of Pittsburgh -- the mileage works out about right for a 110 mile day Pittsburgh to Dennison and Dennison to Columbus.  Dennison had a roundhouse, even shops, and a large classification yard.

However, about this time, apparently longer runs with a train became possible.  Also, since Dennison supported no branches and only a modest originating traffic, there was even less reason for reclassifying trains there.

Then (the story goes) the switchmen went out on strike.  I don't know how the local switchmen behaved during the strike, but after settlement, the PRR (always one to do things their way) closed the Dennison Yard and ripped it out.  By 1972, when I first saw the site, it had become a healthy second-growth forest lying on the north side of the main and east of town.  Of course, today, that's not that unusual for a historic Pennsy yard.

It occurs to me that the other effects of closing Dennison were:
1. to make more desirable those engines who could both grunt over the Panhandle Division and then make speed west to Columbus.
2. to focus terminal facilities at Columbus.  I wish for more info on how PRR in Columbus grew in between 1893 (I have a map) and WW2.

Rick Tipton
Now contemplating an HO layout set in Columbus in the 50's or 60's. --part1_d8.18c2d6c1.2a313e55_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RStein1686@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 19:25:59 EDT Subject: [PRR] Books for sale For sale: 1. "Iron Horses across the Garden State" by Rosenbaum & Gallo (80pgs) 2."The Remarkable GG1" by Zimmerman (70pgs) 3."Trains of the Northeast Corridor" by Nelligan & Hartley (100 pgs) All of the above are 8 1/2 x 11 soft cover format books. $10 ea or 3 for $25 plus a bit for shipping. The following are large format hardbacks: 1."PRR 1940-1950" by Ball $25 2."Steam,Steel,&Stars" by Link $25 3."All Aboard" the golden age of American rail travel by Yenne $20 Shipping a bit extra. Please respond off list. Ron Stein near Philadelphia ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 19:45:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Altoona/Huntingdon Weekend Safari Greetings List, This weekend, I'll be headed out to Altoona with my two PRR buddies Ken Rideout and Greg Vlassopoulos. We''ll be gathering photos and info for the HO Altoona-Cresson layout we are building here in Philly. We are staying at the Tunnel Inn in Gallitzin. Saturday afternoon, we plan to head over to Huntingdon Pa to view HUNT Tower and check out the 60mph freight trains. Is this tower open on the weekends? We would like get inside if possible. Anyone have any info on HUNT Tower? Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson PRRT&HS PCRRHS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "sjlash" Subject: [PRR] OFF TOPIC/Dave Sweetland/photo credit Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 19:55:22 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C20D94.17F83AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List, Is there anyone out there who has an email address for Dave. = There is a photo credit I would like to discuss with him.. Date,etc. = If you could have him email me that would be great. Jim = sjlash@tcis.net=20 ------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C20D94.17F83AA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
List,  Is there anyone out there = who has an=20 email address for Dave.  There is a photo credit I would like to = discuss=20 with him..  Date,etc.  If you could have him email me that = would be=20 great.  Jim   sjlash@tcis.net =
------=_NextPart_000_002E_01C20D94.17F83AA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 22:25:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] "MS60" What the MS -60 means is that the equipment requirement is for 60' of mail storage not any certain car class. 2 X -29 class cars would fit the bill as well as 1 B-60. as long as 60' of mail storage is provided the equipment need is met. ----- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: RE: [PRR] K4 Question Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 23:15:44 -0400 Thanks for the information. My next question would be, what about the tender deck on 3750? Since this was the first K4 that I have seen, I would like to model her. Thanks, Eric > [Original Message] > From: Burnley, Charles > To: ealauterbach@earthlink.net > Date: 6/6/02 4:36:05 PM > Subject: RE: [PRR] K4 Question > > Eric, > > Many K4s' did not get train phones and thus probably retained the original > water hatches. One opening, > three separately opening lids. They were linked to open individually, or all > 3 at once. The hatch was cross- > ways on the tender deck about 2 feet from the rear edge of the cistern. > Check photographs, antenna-less tenders > probably kept the original hatches. The only thing that could fool you is if > the tender had the antenna's > removed, then the hatches would remain in the "new" location. Not many > photo's of tender tops, and way,way to much > research. Pick a photo of the engine you want to model & work from that. > Tenders were moved from engine to engine > quite often, especially in the late years. > Good luck. > > Buzz > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Lauterbach [mailto:ealauterbach@earthlink.net] > Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 2:39 PM > To: prr-talk > Subject: [PRR] K4 Question > > > > > > I just got one of the new Spectrum K4's and I am considering doing some > detail changes to make it more representative of the Post-War version. I am > using the Kris Kollar article as a guide, but I am wondering about the water > hatch. I have seen a few photos of Post-War K4 without the antenna. Does > this mean that some K4's kept the original water hatch location if they did > not have the antenna? > Thanks, > Eric > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For > assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --- Eric Lauterbach --- ealauterbach@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LKeough107@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 00:19:26 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] fan trips// Mini-Conventions --part1_3b.279cf95b.2a318e4e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry This sounds like a plausable thing to do and may enhance the overall organization which may lead to even greater attendance at annual conventions. I would be willing to assist in putting something together in Norfolk Va. Steve Keough PRRT&HS 4340 --part1_3b.279cf95b.2a318e4e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Barry
   This sounds like a plausable thing to do and may enhance the overall organization which may lead to even greater attendance at annual conventions.  I would be willing to assist in putting something together in Norfolk Va.
                                                                                    Steve Keough
                                                                                     PRRT&HS 4340 --part1_3b.279cf95b.2a318e4e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 23:07:32 -0700 From: Steve B Subject: [PRR] Re: South Wind drumhead I believe there's a photo of the South Wind's observation car in "Streamliner Memories" by Mike Schafer which shows the drumhead in color. Unfortunately, I'm away from home and can't check to be sure. However, I have a menu from the South Wind dining car with the weather vane design on it, in color, and would be happy to scan or photograph it for you this weekend. Contact me off list and let me know what resolution you need for the scan. Steve Beals Los Angeles Bobby Bryzinski wrote: > Does anyone know of any good color photos or > references for the "South Wind" passenger train > drumhead? I have a good black and white photo from > vol.II of Beebe's "The Trains We Rode", but no color > info. Any help is greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Bob Bryzinski ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 11:35:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Head End Equipment Lettering / Decal Project From: Jerry Britton When passenger equipment switched from Bronze Gold (Gold Leaf) to Dulux Gold (Buff) circa 1950, did head end equipment (i.e. B60's, BM70's, R50's) switch also? A private response received in advance says they did go to Dulux, but the question is "when"? My need-to-know is for 1954, but I am guessing that perhaps head-end equipment was not repainted that often during this era, so that perhaps these cars would still be in Bronze Gold. Any opinions? I am working with a major decal manufacturer to produce sets of correct PRR road numbers for various classes of passenger (non Pullman) cars so as to eliminate the need to piece together correct numbers. The good news is that it won't even be considered a special run. The manufacturer is going to add it to their regular line. I am currently planning to include several dozen P85br's and several dozen B60b's, but the sheet will also include some P70kr's, P70gsr's, D85c's, D85d's, some other diners yet to be determined, BM70k's, BM70m's, POC85br's, PLC85, perhaps R50's, and perhaps some others. If anyone has other suggestions, please contact me off-list. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 11:39:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports Update From: Jerry Britton As a dealer, I asked: > How are things looking for the J1e production schedule? > The response: > The demonstrator models should make it toward the end of this month, and the > production models are now expected early August. > I asked: > Anything new to report on the power plant and pulling capability? > The response: > > Yes, we have made substantial improvements. We had a new sample tested by > Dean Windsor, who conducts such tests for Railmodel Journal and he measured a > tractive force of 3.1 ounces, equivalent to 72.17 cars on level track and 14.5 > cars on a 4% grade. > Things are definitely looking up...other than the delay until August...but hey, let's get it right! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Head End Equipment Lettering / Decal Project Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:47:06 -0400 Jerry, Will this manufacturer also make these decals available in HO? I assume since your an n-scaler that is the scale that your working on getting the decals made in. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 16:09:52 +0000 Subject: [PRR] When passenger equipment switched from Bronze Gold (Gold Leaf) to Dulux Gold (Buff) circa 1950, did head end equipment (i.e. B60's, BM70's, R50's) switch also? A private response received in advance says they did go to Dulux, but the question is "when"? My need-to-know is for 1954, but I am guessing that perhaps head-end equipment was not repainted that often during this era, so that perhaps these cars would still be in Bronze Gold. Maybe Bill Volkmer would have the definitive answer since his first assignment was at the Penn coach yard at 30th ST. station but I would think that just by the shear numbers of cars that they were changed as shopped. Perhaps the name trains got full matched sets earlier. I would suspect that some lingered possibly into the 60's. I would be more concerned about when the new cars started to appear than the old ones disappear. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 12:19:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Head End Equipment Lettering / Decal Project From: Jerry Britton On 6/7/02 11:47 AM, Chany, Christopher at (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > > Will this manufacturer also make these decals available in HO? I assume > since your an n-scaler that is the scale that your working on getting the > decals made in. > Yes, that's the plan, though N scale was driving the need due to the size. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:11:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] R50b lettering (was Head End Equipment Lettering / Decal In a message dated 6/7/02 10:43:55 AM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << Any opinions? >> Not an opinion, but a question, specifically on the R50b. The latest Cylclopedia Vol. 7 which covers express reefers says the R50b switched to Deluxe gold in the 50's. This contradicts information in the Keystone of many years ago and some other sources saying these cars switched away from gold leaf lettering prior to World War II. Any answers from the list? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Athearn F-7's Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:30:08 -0400 Listers, For the 1955-1957 era, Would the Athearn f-7's normally be found in ABA or ABBA combinations? Chris Chany PS. Sorry Jerry you got this before I hit the wrong reply button when this went out the first time. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:17:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn F-7's On Fri, 7 Jun 2002, Chany, Christopher wrote: > Listers, > For the 1955-1957 era, Would the Athearn f-7's normally be found in ABA or > ABBA combinations? Chris, It depends on how Athearn sold them back them ;^) (in fact, isn't the Globe/Athearn F a 1960's product?) Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 15:20:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn F-7's Chris, Looking through some 1950s Pittsburgh Div. dispatch sheets, PRR ran the F-7s in ABA or ABBA sets depending on train tonnage. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Athearn F-7's Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:20:46 -0500 No. It cuased quite a sensation in the middle 50s, since it was (then) a highly detailed, plastic engine whose dummy sold for just 89 cents. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 2:17 PM To: Chany, Christopher Cc: 'Bobspf@aol.com'; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn F-7's On Fri, 7 Jun 2002, Chany, Christopher wrote: > Listers, > For the 1955-1957 era, Would the Athearn f-7's normally be found in ABA or > ABBA combinations? Chris, It depends on how Athearn sold them back them ;^) (in fact, isn't the Globe/Athearn F a 1960's product?) Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Athearn F-7's Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 15:42:33 -0400 OK guys it been a long week! I meant did the PRR's F-7's that the Athearn models portray run ABA or ABBA? thanks to Dave for taking me seriously:) Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 14:20:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] R50b lettering (was Head End Equipment Lettering / On Fri, 7 Jun 2002 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > Not an opinion, but a question, specifically on the R50b. The latest > Cylclopedia Vol. 7 which covers express reefers says the R50b switched to > Deluxe gold in the 50's. This contradicts information in the Keystone of > many years ago and some other sources saying these cars switched away from > gold leaf lettering prior to World War II. Any answers from the list? Yeah, I noticed that too. I think its an oops on the part of the Cyclopedia given the rather extensive history presented by one of our list member of lettering on the R50b (check the January archives) being Dulux well before WWII. I'd look for a correction in volume 8 . Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 16:28:52 EDT Subject: [PRR] Athearn F-7's In a message dated 6/7/02 2:17:33 PM Central Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << It depends on how Athearn sold them back them ;^) (in fact, isn't the Globe/Athearn F a 1960's product?) >> Answering both questions, Bruce's first, I think the Globe F came out in the early 50's . I think that is about right because it was one of the few model rail things I could afford in my teen years (about $1 if I remember, dummy unit only). I promptly painted it in a nice forest green, my version of DGLE as I knew it from other models :-). Pennsy went away from the 6000 horsepower sets beginning with the delivery of the F3 helpers in 1949 which were ABA. They also began breaking up the Erie-builts, for example, into AA and AB sets instead of ABA as delivered. I'm not in a position to look at my other references, but when did they start the MU jumper cables in the noses? After that any combination of diesels (except Baldwins) could be found. I presume the original question referred to the mainline. Single A or AA, AB combos were used on the Peoria branch, for example. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Athearn F-7's Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 20:31:29 +0000 I'm going to hazzard an educated guess but based on the fact that three set F3's were quickly upgraded to four units and 6000HP and three F7's should be 5250 HP that they were probably run as three unit sets in the flat lands and four unit sets of 7000HP on the Pgh and Middle divisions. Norm Bell > OK guys it been a long week! I meant did the PRR's F-7's that the Athearn > models portray run ABA or ABBA? thanks to Dave for taking me seriously:) > > Chris > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Athearn F-7's Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 15:45:45 -0500 The philosphy behind whether the units were run in sets of A-B-B-A or A-B-A is covered in the Herismaki books describing the transition from steam to diesel. I thin they are titled "Black Gold Black Diamonds" or something like that. -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com] Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 3:29 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Athearn F-7's In a message dated 6/7/02 2:17:33 PM Central Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << It depends on how Athearn sold them back them ;^) (in fact, isn't the Globe/Athearn F a 1960's product?) >> Answering both questions, Bruce's first, I think the Globe F came out in the early 50's . I think that is about right because it was one of the few model rail things I could afford in my teen years (about $1 if I remember, dummy unit only). I promptly painted it in a nice forest green, my version of DGLE as I knew it from other models :-). Pennsy went away from the 6000 horsepower sets beginning with the delivery of the F3 helpers in 1949 which were ABA. They also began breaking up the Erie-builts, for example, into AA and AB sets instead of ABA as delivered. I'm not in a position to look at my other references, but when did they start the MU jumper cables in the noses? After that any combination of diesels (except Baldwins) could be found. I presume the original question referred to the mainline. Single A or AA, AB combos were used on the Peoria branch, for example. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 18:39:42 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Athearn's F-7's Chris and all, I am surprised Dan Cupper didn't jump all over this... 3^) The answer can be found in the Withers Book on the F-units.The PRR broke up the set starting in the 50's as they were trying to set a standard for moving tonnage system wide. I am at work and can't give you the exact date the decision was made., but the book will tell you. I advise anyone wishng to get a good indepth look at Pennsy F-unit, but this book. This is not to say you won't see more than 3 units on a train, but it clearly documents when the PRR's buying patterns changed from 4 unit sets to 3 unit set and when they received more "A's" in their order to break up the B-uints from 4 unit sets. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 21:02:52 -0700 From: Steve Subject: [PRR] Re: South Wind drumhead Well, now that I'm home and have access to my books I have to admit I was guessing when I said the South Wind observation car was seen in "Streamliner Memories." The correct reference is "A Golden Decade of Trains: The 1950s In Color" by Robert R. Malinoski. Page four has a color photo of the author with PRR POC70R #1129 displaying the South Wind drumhead. The menu I mentioned in my previous post has the same design and colors except the rooster is in red rather than black as shown on the drumhead in the photo noted above. Steve Beals Los Angeles Bobby Bryzinski wrote: > Does anyone know of any good color photos or > references for the "South Wind" passenger train > drumhead? I have a good black and white photo from > vol.II of Beebe's "The Trains We Rode", but no color > info. Any help is greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Bob Bryzinski ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Black Gold, Black Diamonds Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 09:29:56 -0400 How many volumes of Black Gold, Black Diamonds have been released? I have the first two but can't for the life of me remember whether there was a third. TIA Bill Bigler Modeling Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Steam Locomotive Class Repairs Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 09:39:35 -0400 For those interested in this topic I have a thread going on Railfan-Message Index at: http://www.chaski.com/cgi-bin/webbbs_food/webbbs_cfg_rfan.pl?#3200 Check that site every few days for the latest. Interesting discussion with condradictory information (what else is new?). Bill Bigler Modeling Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 12:54:39 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Columbus replacing Dennison as a classification center/shops circa 1922? In a message dated 6/8/02 2:30:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:55:04 -0700 (PDT) > From: Bob Flores > Subject: Re: Dennison Switchmens' Strike, 1922 > > I am not sure if this has any realvance, but I think > these events occured shortly after construction about > 1920, and I will have to check the facts, of the > growth of the Columbus facilities. So there might be > some possibility that these functions were carried out > in Columbus, as opposed to Dennison. Does this sound > possible. I will check with Dick Jacobs, he could > very well know. I spoke with him the other day, and > he pointed out that the drawings that he has were from > 1921, I think. Columbus was a substantial facliity by > this time. Just a maybe?? > Bob Flores > Bob, I'm looking forward to hearing about this... I agree that Dennison could not have been shut down without corresponding changes already in place in Columbus. My guess is that (assuming my Dennison story isn't full of holes, always a possibility with oral history), like honest workmen in many other situations, the switchmen in 1921/22 just picked the dumbest possible time to strike. Incidentally -- whatever else you may say about the Teamsters Union past and present -- within the transportation industry, their headquarters unit is respected for its knowledge of business and economics. The Teamsters are savvy enough to know when to hold and when to fold, and have a good track record of getting the most for their employees with the least time off striking. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 12:54:39 EDT Subject: [PRR] Columbus replacing Dennison as a classification --part1_14c.f0683bc.2a3390cf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/8/02 2:30:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:55:04 -0700 (PDT) > From: Bob Flores > Subject: Re: Dennison Switchmens' Strike, 1922 > > I am not sure if this has any realvance, but I think > these events occured shortly after construction about > 1920, and I will have to check the facts, of the > growth of the Columbus facilities. So there might be > some possibility that these functions were carried out > in Columbus, as opposed to Dennison. Does this sound > possible. I will check with Dick Jacobs, he could > very well know. I spoke with him the other day, and > he pointed out that the drawings that he has were from > 1921, I think. Columbus was a substantial facliity by > this time. Just a maybe?? > Bob Flores > Bob, I'm looking forward to hearing about this... I agree that Dennison could not have been shut down without corresponding changes already in place in Columbus. My guess is that (assuming my Dennison story isn't full of holes, always a possibility with oral history), like honest workmen in many other situations, the switchmen in 1921/22 just picked the dumbest possible time to strike. Incidentally -- whatever else you may say about the Teamsters Union past and present -- within the transportation industry, their headquarters unit is respected for its knowledge of business and economics. The Teamsters are savvy enough to know when to hold and when to fold, and have a good track record of getting the most for their employees with the least time off striking. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_14c.f0683bc.2a3390cf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/8/02 2:30:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 3
   Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:55:04 -0700 (PDT)
   From: Bob Flores <bobflores99@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Dennison Switchmens' Strike, 1922

I am not sure if this has any realvance, but I think
these events occured shortly after construction about
1920, and I will have to check the facts, of the
growth of the Columbus facilities.  So there might be
some possibility that these functions were carried out
in Columbus, as opposed to Dennison.  Does this sound
possible.  I will check with Dick Jacobs, he could
very well know.  I spoke with him the other day, and
he pointed out that the drawings that he has were from
1921, I think.  Columbus was a substantial facliity by
this time.  Just a maybe??  
    Bob Flores


Bob,
I'm looking forward to hearing about this... I agree that Dennison could not have been shut down without corresponding changes already in place in Columbus.

My guess is that (assuming my Dennison story isn't full of holes, always a possibility with oral history), like honest workmen in many other situations, the switchmen in 1921/22 just picked the dumbest possible time to strike.

Incidentally -- whatever else you may say about the Teamsters Union past and present -- within the transportation industry, their headquarters unit is respected for its knowledge of business and economics.  The Teamsters are savvy enough to know when to hold and when to fold, and have a good track record of getting the most for their employees with the least time off striking.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_14c.f0683bc.2a3390cf_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 12:54:41 EDT Subject: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code --part1_189.8db04d8.2a3390d1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/7/02 12:33:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: "MS60" > From: "Rick Miskell" > Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 07:29:06 -0400 > > Hi Group. > I've noticed several references to an "MS60" on "24 hrs at Harrisburg" and > in a couple other references I've accumulated but can't find this as a > class > anywhere. The same references note the existance of B60 and B60a as well > as > X-42's. Should I assume (never safe that's why I'm asking) this is really > a > B60 assigned to mail storage duties or is it a distinct class that no one > seems to have data available for on the net? > Thanks in advance. > > Rick Miskell > Hi Rick -- a good question. MS60 isn't a real class. Didn't discussion a year or two ago decide this was code for any car with 60 feet of mail storage space in it? Thus, if I were the responsible car clerk, couldn't I dispatch... 1. a PRR B60b (from a cast of thousands) 2. an X42 (if one of the ten was available) 3. a New Haven 60' baggage -- or a Missouri Pacific one -- or available baggage cars from the ACL, FEC, SOU, L&N, SAL, C&O, etc. The PRR handled lots of other people's headend cars -- of course, they had to be all-steel east of Pittsburgh (thanks, Don Hess, for explaining the PRR's "firewall" for keeping wood-sheathed equipment out of the New York tunnels). I suppose in an emergency one could supply a car and a half of X29 BX's (the passenger-equipped mail storage version that sometimes carried REA markings). The one thing not allowed would be to dispatch a BM70 class -- these RPO cars had a postal compartment 60' long after conversion from the M70 family, but the RPO "furniture" would interfere with bulk carloading. I do find it fascinating that certain regularly scheduled headend hauls call for an X29, or a B60, yet others just specify an MS60 -- and this can be in the same train! Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_189.8db04d8.2a3390d1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/7/02 12:33:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: "MS60"
From: "Rick Miskell" <rmiskell+@pitt.edu>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 07:29:06 -0400

Hi Group.
I've noticed several references to an "MS60" on "24 hrs at Harrisburg" and
in a couple other references I've accumulated but can't find this as a class
anywhere.  The same references note the existance of B60 and B60a as well as
X-42's.  Should I assume (never safe that's why I'm asking) this is really a
B60 assigned to mail storage duties or is it a distinct class that no one
seems to have data available for on the net?
Thanks in advance.

Rick Miskell


Hi Rick -- a good question.

MS60 isn't a real class.  Didn't discussion a year or two ago decide this was code for any car with 60 feet of mail storage space in it?  Thus, if I were the responsible car clerk, couldn't I dispatch...

1. a PRR B60b (from a cast of thousands)
2. an X42 (if one of the ten was available)
3. a New Haven 60' baggage -- or a Missouri Pacific one -- or available baggage cars from the ACL, FEC, SOU, L&N, SAL, C&O, etc.  The PRR handled lots of other people's headend cars -- of course, they had to be all-steel east of Pittsburgh (thanks, Don Hess, for explaining the PRR's "firewall" for keeping wood-sheathed equipment out of the New York tunnels).

I suppose in an emergency one could supply a car and a half of X29 BX's (the passenger-equipped mail storage version that sometimes carried REA markings).  The one thing not allowed would be to dispatch a BM70 class -- these RPO cars had a postal compartment 60' long after conversion from the M70 family, but the RPO "furniture" would interfere with bulk carloading.

I do find it fascinating that certain regularly scheduled headend hauls call for an X29, or a B60, yet others just specify an MS60 -- and this can be in the same train!



Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_189.8db04d8.2a3390d1_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 19:14:46 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code Rick & List- According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct class. My list states the following: MS60- X-42 -60' Mail Storage Car-Blt.1950- #2540-2549- 2D-F32 1/53 ORPTE lists; MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 21:46:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code In a message dated 6/8/02 6:22:56 PM Central Daylight Time, docfoot@bellsouth.net writes: << According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct class. My list states the following: MS60- X-42 -60' Mail Storage Car-Blt.1950- #2540-2549- 2D-F32, etc >> I am intrigued by your input and it certainly is food for thought, but the X-42 was built in 1950 and my August 1945 passenger consists refer to MS60 and I believe my prewar consists do as well. I wonder if the reference in your ORPTE to X-42 after MS60 was not a mutually exclusive term, but merely gave the MS60 designation to the X42, among others. I confess all my research is secondary and is not primary, but my most recent understanding was as stated by a couple posters, that MS60 was the term for a postal requirement for 60 feet of mail storage space, to be filled by a B60, B70, two X29s, a B74, whatever met the minimum. Bob Zoeller Bayside, WI ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 21:50:46 -0400 I also have an equipment diagram that shows class MS60. It's shown on the same page as class B60 with the notation that the MS60 has stanchions while the B60 did not but were otherwise identical. Notes on a photocopy of the diagram from Bob Johnson mention that the MS60 was added to the diagram on 4/24/1916 and the photocopy's revision dated 6/8/31 has the MS60 crossed off. I'm not sure if in '31 the MS60's and B60's were merged and afterwards the MS60 became a proxy class as has been mentioned but it does appear that there was for a while at least a true class MS60. There's also an undated diagram for a MS70 which was never built... Also, it's obvious that the cars in the diagram I have aren't the cars mentioned by Edmond. His list is more indicative of the MS60 being an alias for other classes, in his example the X42's... Unfortunately the MS60 diagrams aren't on my site yet.. As soon as I find the time I have an inch thick pile of photocopies of passenger car diagrams from Bob to scan and these are in the stack.. Rob http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Dr. Edmond L. Freed Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 7:15 PM To: RickTipton@aol.com; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code Rick & List- According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct class. My list states the following: MS60- X-42 -60' Mail Storage Car-Blt.1950- #2540-2549- 2D-F32 1/53 ORPTE lists; MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 10:40:00 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Black Gold, Black Diamonds From: Jerry Britton On 6/8/02 9:29 AM, William Bigler at (wbigler@stny.rr.com) wrote: > How many volumes of Black Gold, Black Diamonds have been released? I have > the first two but can't for the life of me remember whether there was a > third. TIA > In the back of volume two, Hirskimaki states that the plan is for five volumes, with the fifth being a recap. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 11:31:17 -0700 Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code Hi Rob, Eddie, & list members, Rob wrote: > I also have an equipment diagram that shows class MS60. It's shown > on the same page as class B60 with the notation that the MS60 has > stanchions while the B60 did not but were otherwise identical. > Notes on a photocopy of the diagram from Bob Johnson mention that > the MS60 was added to the diagram on 4/24/1916 and the photocopy's > revision dated 6/8/31 has the MS60 crossed off. Also Eddie wrote: > According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct > class. This all is in sync with what I have & know about the class. I have a copy of PRR photo collection image #7453 entitled "MS-60 Postal Storage Car 7298, side view, reproduction" Image shows a plain B60 (not B60b) car, still as-built with the four windows on each side. The windows have security bars on the interior. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 11:31:17 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Passenger-equipped X29 w/o REA lettering Hi list, The MS-60 discussion got me thinking of another topic I have been meaning to ask about. Were passenger-equipped X29 cars always lettered for Railway Express Agency (or predecessor American Railway Express)? Or were some passenger-equipped X29 cars painted w/o REA lettering? I'm thinking that there must have been services for some of these cars, such as storage mail or movement of company supplies, which would have been entirely unrelated to REA in any way... Anyone know anything more definitive on this topic? - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 14:46:56 -0500 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] New PRR Diesel Book Have I missed the announcement but I noticed in the latest issue of Mainline Modeler that they are bringing out a book on PRR diesels 1924-1968. There can never be enough books written on the Pennsy. Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] PRR MP54 Model question From: "mkwb@excite.com" Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 19:17:41 -0400 (EDT) --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__2f1504fd1c3dc2a1f2b86f4154b00dce Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, Two questions concerning the model market for HO scale PRR MP54 MU cars: 1) I'm preparing to produce resin kits for these cars. (One-piece bodies, metal floors and trucks, pantographs.) Right now, I'm only planning to produce the coach version. Is there significant interest in the other types (combine, baggage, etc.)? Would anyone like to see these produced in addition to the coaches? 2) Does anyone have a Railworks MP54 powered or dummy coach they'd like to sell me? (Painted or unpainted, it doesn't matter.) If not, can you provide a lead? I know of a few places that have some 2-car sets, but I'd rather get just a single unit if possible. Thanks, Mike Bartel Imperial Hobby Productions http://ihphobby.tripod.com mkwb@excite.com ------------------------------------------------ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__2f1504fd1c3dc2a1f2b86f4154b00dce Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all,

Two questions concerning the model market for HO scale PRR MP54 MU cars:

1) I'm preparing to produce resin kits for these cars. (One-piece bodies, metal floors and trucks, pantographs.) Right now, I'm only planning to produce the coach version. Is there significant interest in the other types (combine, baggage, etc.)? Would anyone like to see these produced in addition to the coaches?

2) Does anyone have a Railworks MP54 powered or dummy coach they'd like to sell me? (Painted or unpainted, it doesn't matter.) If not, can you provide a lead? I know of a few places that have some 2-car sets, but I'd rather get just a single unit if possible.

Thanks,

Mike Bartel
Imperial Hobby Productions
http://ihphobby.tripod.com
mkwb@excite.com





Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web! --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__2f1504fd1c3dc2a1f2b86f4154b00dce-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 19:22:45 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0136_01C20FEB.08703DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I researched the B-60 history last year for publication and found = reference to B-60's that were outfitted with mail bag hanging hooks. = These appear to only have been in use for a short time then the cars = were remodeled and the mail fixtures scrapped. Below are several quotes = relating to the MS-60 that I wrote in my article.=20 PRR tracing C68288B "B60, MS60 General Arrangement" notes that "Windows = have been removed 4-25-1924". =20 In the late 1920's, the MS60's were phased out and rebuilt as B60's, = adding to the fleet. The actual date the phasing out process began may = coincide with the introduction of the B60b. This was an easy rebuild as = class MS60 differed from B60 in only three ways: by having stanchions = inside for hanging mail sacks, by the mail bag crash bars in the = windows, and the lettering "United States Mail Storage" instead of = listing an express company name.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RickTipton@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 12:54 PM Subject: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code In a message dated 6/7/02 12:33:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, = PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: Subject: "MS60" From: "Rick Miskell" Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 07:29:06 -0400 Hi Group. I've noticed several references to an "MS60" on "24 hrs at = Harrisburg" and in a couple other references I've accumulated but can't find this as = a class anywhere. The same references note the existance of B60 and B60a as = well as X-42's. Should I assume (never safe that's why I'm asking) this is = really a B60 assigned to mail storage duties or is it a distinct class that = no one seems to have data available for on the net? Thanks in advance. Rick Miskell Hi Rick -- a good question. MS60 isn't a real class. Didn't discussion a year or two ago decide = this was code for any car with 60 feet of mail storage space in it? = Thus, if I were the responsible car clerk, couldn't I dispatch... 1. a PRR B60b (from a cast of thousands) 2. an X42 (if one of the ten was available) 3. a New Haven 60' baggage -- or a Missouri Pacific one -- or = available baggage cars from the ACL, FEC, SOU, L&N, SAL, C&O, etc. The = PRR handled lots of other people's headend cars -- of course, they had = to be all-steel east of Pittsburgh (thanks, Don Hess, for explaining the = PRR's "firewall" for keeping wood-sheathed equipment out of the New York = tunnels). I suppose in an emergency one could supply a car and a half of X29 = BX's (the passenger-equipped mail storage version that sometimes carried = REA markings). The one thing not allowed would be to dispatch a BM70 = class -- these RPO cars had a postal compartment 60' long after = conversion from the M70 family, but the RPO "furniture" would interfere = with bulk carloading. I do find it fascinating that certain regularly scheduled headend = hauls call for an X29, or a B60, yet others just specify an MS60 -- and = this can be in the same train! Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0136_01C20FEB.08703DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I researched the B-60 history last year = for=20 publication and found reference to B-60's that were outfitted with mail = bag=20 hanging hooks.  These appear to only have been in use for a short = time then=20 the cars were remodeled and the mail fixtures scrapped.  Below are = several=20 quotes relating to the MS-60 that I wrote in my article. 

PRR tracing C68288B "B60, MS60 General Arrangement" notes that = "Windows have=20 been removed 4-25-1924". 

In the late 1920's, the MS60's were phased out and rebuilt as B60's, = adding=20 to the fleet. The actual date the phasing out process began may coincide = with=20 the introduction of the B60b. This was an easy = rebuild as=20 class MS60 differed from B60 in only three ways: by having stanchions = inside for=20 hanging mail sacks, by the mail bag crash bars in the windows, and the = lettering=20 "United States Mail Storage" instead of listing an express company name. =

 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RickTipton@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 = 12:54=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] MS60 a proxy = code

In a message dated 6/7/02 = 12:33:01 AM=20 Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 writes:


Subject: "MS60"
From: "Rick Miskell" <rmiskell+@pitt.edu>
Date: = Thu, 06=20 Jun 2002 07:29:06 -0400

Hi Group.
I've noticed several = references=20 to an "MS60" on "24 hrs at Harrisburg" and
in a couple other = references=20 I've accumulated but can't find this as a class
anywhere.  = The same=20 references note the existance of B60 and B60a as well = as
X-42's. =20 Should I assume (never safe that's why I'm asking) this is really = a
B60=20 assigned to mail storage duties or is it a distinct class that no=20 one
seems to have data available for on the net?
Thanks in=20 advance.

Rick Miskell


Hi Rick -- a good question.

MS60 isn't a = real=20 class.  Didn't discussion a year or two ago decide this was code = for any=20 car with 60 feet of mail storage space in it?  Thus, if I were = the=20 responsible car clerk, couldn't I dispatch...

1. a PRR B60b = (from a=20 cast of thousands)
2. an X42 (if one of the ten was = available)
3. a New=20 Haven 60' baggage -- or a Missouri Pacific one -- or available baggage = cars=20 from the ACL, FEC, SOU, L&N, SAL, C&O, etc.  The PRR = handled lots=20 of other people's headend cars -- of course, they had to be all-steel = east of=20 Pittsburgh (thanks, Don Hess, for explaining the PRR's "firewall" for = keeping=20 wood-sheathed equipment out of the New York tunnels).

I suppose = in an=20 emergency one could supply a car and a half of X29 BX's (the=20 passenger-equipped mail storage version that sometimes carried REA=20 markings).  The one thing not allowed would be to dispatch a BM70 = class=20 -- these RPO cars had a postal compartment 60' long after conversion = from the=20 M70 family, but the RPO "furniture" would interfere with bulk=20 carloading.

I do find it fascinating that certain regularly = scheduled=20 headend hauls call for an X29, or a B60, yet others just specify an = MS60 --=20 and this can be in the same train!



Rick = Tipton
Louisville=20 KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines = West=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0136_01C20FEB.08703DE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 22:35:40 -0400 From: Ken Meyer Subject: [PRR] Steam loco in Hockessin, DE Can anyone provide info about the 0-6-0 located at Rt. 41 near Valley Rd. in Hockessin, Delaware? Is there info on a website? Ken Meyer Bel Air, MD ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam loco in Hockessin, DE Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 23:43:48 -0400 Ken, Believe that is the power for the Wilmington & Western tourist railroad You might check to see if they are on http://www.traininc.org the Tourist Railway Association website.. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Meyer" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 10:35 PM Subject: [PRR] Steam loco in Hockessin, DE > Can anyone provide info about the 0-6-0 located at Rt. 41 near Valley > Rd. in Hockessin, Delaware? Is there info on a website? > Ken Meyer > Bel Air, MD > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KLJURY@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 07:20:34 EDT Subject: [PRR] 0-6-0 at Hockessin, De --part1_d8.18e6ce6f.2a35e582_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You may be asking about the PRR B6sa that is somewhat cosmetically restored and on display next to the highway. It is privately owned and was for years sitting forlorn at a steel mill in the Pittsburgh arzea until rescued several years ago. Missing a lot of parts but, hey, it survives! --part1_d8.18e6ce6f.2a35e582_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You may be asking about the PRR B6sa that is somewhat cosmetically
restored and on display next to the highway. It is privately owned and
was for years sitting forlorn at a steel mill in the Pittsburgh arzea until
rescued several years ago. Missing a lot of parts but, hey, it survives! --part1_d8.18e6ce6f.2a35e582_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:06:16 -0400 Rob: The scan of the B60 floorplan that you show on your site http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=bagg is the mail version of the baggage car. This version only lasted until about 1927(?), then was converted to a plain B60. This version as shown may be a modified MS60 car. Since the floor plan does not show windows in the walls, it may have been drawn after 1924 when the modification of closing up the 4 original window openings was apparently completed. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Schoenberg" To: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 11:17 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code > All I have are the equipment diagrams that show a sketch of > the major features and dimensions of the cars. > > The B60 diagrams I currently have online are at > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=bagg > The M60 and a few other variants of B60's are in the > coming soon pile. I can send you scans if you'd like.. > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lewis J. Matt PhD [mailto:lmatt@alltel.net] > Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 7:28 PM > To: Rob Schoenberg > Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code > > > Rob: > > I am ready to submit an article for publication on the B-60 (MS-60) and > would appreciate a copy of whatever you have on the subject. I would like > to incorporate all the info known if I can. I will await your reply. > > Lew Matt > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rob Schoenberg" > To: ; ; "PRR-Talk" > > Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 9:50 PM > Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code > > > > I also have an equipment diagram that shows class MS60. It's shown > > on the same page as class B60 with the notation that the MS60 has > > stanchions while the B60 did not but were otherwise identical. > > Notes on a photocopy of the diagram from Bob Johnson mention that > > the MS60 was added to the diagram on 4/24/1916 and the photocopy's > > revision dated 6/8/31 has the MS60 crossed off. > > > > I'm not sure if in '31 the MS60's and B60's were merged and afterwards > > the MS60 became a proxy class as has been mentioned but it does appear > > that there was for a while at least a true class MS60. > > > > There's also an undated diagram for a MS70 which was never built... > > > > Also, it's obvious that the cars in the diagram I have aren't the cars > > mentioned by Edmond. His list is more indicative of the MS60 being an > > alias for other classes, in his example the X42's... > > > > Unfortunately the MS60 diagrams aren't on my site yet.. As soon as I > > find the time I have an inch thick pile of photocopies of passenger car > > diagrams from Bob to scan and these are in the stack.. > > > > Rob > > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams > > -----Original Message----- > > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Dr. > > Edmond L. Freed > > Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 7:15 PM > > To: RickTipton@aol.com; PRR-Talk > > Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code > > > > > > Rick & List- > > > > According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct > > class. > > > > My list states the following: > > MS60- X-42 -60' Mail Storage Car-Blt.1950- #2540-2549- 2D-F32 > > > > 1/53 ORPTE lists; > > > > MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. > > > > Regards, > > > > Eddie > > > > Dr. Edmond L. Freed > > PRRT&HS # 156 > > Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 12:06:16 -0400 Rob: The scan of the B60 floorplan that you show on your site http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=bagg is the mail version of the baggage car. This version only lasted until about 1927(?), then was converted to a plain B60. This version as shown may be a modified MS60 car. Since the floor plan does not show windows in the walls, it may have been drawn after 1924 when the modification of closing up the 4 original window openings was apparently completed. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Schoenberg" To: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 11:17 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code > All I have are the equipment diagrams that show a sketch of > the major features and dimensions of the cars. > > The B60 diagrams I currently have online are at > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=bagg > The M60 and a few other variants of B60's are in the > coming soon pile. I can send you scans if you'd like.. > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lewis J. Matt PhD [mailto:lmatt@alltel.net] > Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 7:28 PM > To: Rob Schoenberg > Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code > > > Rob: > > I am ready to submit an article for publication on the B-60 (MS-60) and > would appreciate a copy of whatever you have on the subject. I would like > to incorporate all the info known if I can. I will await your reply. > > Lew Matt > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rob Schoenberg" > To: ; ; "PRR-Talk" > > Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 9:50 PM > Subject: RE: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code > > > > I also have an equipment diagram that shows class MS60. It's shown > > on the same page as class B60 with the notation that the MS60 has > > stanchions while the B60 did not but were otherwise identical. > > Notes on a photocopy of the diagram from Bob Johnson mention that > > the MS60 was added to the diagram on 4/24/1916 and the photocopy's > > revision dated 6/8/31 has the MS60 crossed off. > > > > I'm not sure if in '31 the MS60's and B60's were merged and afterwards > > the MS60 became a proxy class as has been mentioned but it does appear > > that there was for a while at least a true class MS60. > > > > There's also an undated diagram for a MS70 which was never built... > > > > Also, it's obvious that the cars in the diagram I have aren't the cars > > mentioned by Edmond. His list is more indicative of the MS60 being an > > alias for other classes, in his example the X42's... > > > > Unfortunately the MS60 diagrams aren't on my site yet.. As soon as I > > find the time I have an inch thick pile of photocopies of passenger car > > diagrams from Bob to scan and these are in the stack.. > > > > Rob > > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams > > -----Original Message----- > > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Dr. > > Edmond L. Freed > > Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 7:15 PM > > To: RickTipton@aol.com; PRR-Talk > > Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 a proxy code > > > > > > Rick & List- > > > > According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct > > class. > > > > My list states the following: > > MS60- X-42 -60' Mail Storage Car-Blt.1950- #2540-2549- 2D-F32 > > > > 1/53 ORPTE lists; > > > > MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. > > > > Regards, > > > > Eddie > > > > Dr. Edmond L. Freed > > PRRT&HS # 156 > > Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:49:11 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] PRR water companies Ever since the exchanges about NC/NG tower and the water-works in the Indian Creek valley, I've been combing the Dreaded Basement and have yet to find the @#$% book I cited. However, I did come up with the Valuation Report on PRR, circa 1918, which, under "Investments in Other Companies", sub-head "Affiliated noncarrier companies", sub-sub-head "Stocks", has a list which includes the following: Blair Gap Water Supply Company Blandburg Water Company Citizens Water Company of Scottdale Clearview Water Supply Company Dauphin Consolidated Water Supply Company Dunbar Water Supply Company Greenmount Water Supply Company High Ridge Water Supply Company Katherine Water Company Mountain Water Supply Company Nekoda Water Supply Company Octoraro Water Company Shamokin Dam Water Company South River Water Company Summit Water Supply Company Tipton Water Company <--- Attention, Rick. Trout Run Water Supply Company Winslow Water Company Persons interested in the amounts of the investments may consult: http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Corphist/ select "Pennsylvania Railroad" and then "Investment in Other..." All this proves nothing in particular, but does indicate that PRR had a keen interest in water. The Pennsylvania Company had a similarly long list of "other companies", but hardly any water companies. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:07:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY Hello List, Got back from Altoona yesterday and saw first hand the sad state of the Railroader's Museum. Just as I walked through the doors, two employees were crying. They had just lost thier jobs at the museum. I think only one person was working there. The gift shop was bare. Hoseshoe Curve wasn't too much better. Gift shop empty. Maybe two people working. The trees have not been cut,( as promised) and the GP-9 is slowly being vandalized. I guess the K4's Roundhouse Project will be put on hold. I really hope things work out for the museum. It's a great museum dedicated to the Pennsy,it's workforce, and the city of Altoona. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Summer 2002 Keystone Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 08:42:55 -0400 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C21145.82509550 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Listers, Got my Summer 2002 Keystone yesterday. There is a modeling article in it. "Scratch-building an NX23 Cabin Car" by Chuck Cover. I'll leave any comments up to the more knowledgeable denizens of the list. Chris Chany ------_=_NextPart_001_01C21145.82509550 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Listers,
 
Got my Summer 2002 Keystone yesterday.  There is a modeling article in it.  "Scratch-building an NX23 Cabin Car" by Chuck Cover.   I'll leave any comments up to the more knowledgeable denizens of the list.
 
 
 
Chris Chany
------_=_NextPart_001_01C21145.82509550-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 08:11:43 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Paul Harvey's old adage "Nobody ever spent themselves rich." is correct. The Galveston Railroad Museum ran into similar problems a few years ago. Instead of being frugal, tons of money were spent (pissed away -pardon my French) on administration and a fiasco of a fund raising effort that cost something like $70,000 and netted $20,000. The Museum spiraled downward and eventually the bloated staff was pared to an Executive Director, a janitor, and 4 or 5 part timers who man the ticket booths. Car maintenance was never a priority under the old regime, and there is no money now, so it is creeping along whenever I can spend some time down there, or can attract volunteers to help. The Museum has been limping along like this since before I got involved in 1996. My observation after 6 years on the Board is that visitors will come to look at static displays only so many times. Something has to move. If the K-4 is ever finished, and they run it occasionally at Altoona, I suspect there will be a line out the door and down the street waiting to get in. Couple of weeks ago I spent a Saturday morning with a group of Girl Scouts who spent the night in our Pullman cars and gave them rides in the cab of our diesel switcher. They were thrilled beyond belief, and this has resulted in at least one Boy Scout Railroading Merit Badge class being scheduled, which will bring additional funds into the Museum coffers. The Altoona Museum was great when I visited a couple of years ago. Lots of interactive stuff in the building, very well presented displays, etc. BUT, Interactive and static displays will carry you only so far. People like to get up close and personal with real equipment, particularly running equipment. Perhaps Altoona should expand beyond what they were doing. Offer merit badge classes. Offer a "Hand on the Throttle" program (if there is anyplace to run an engine). Attract volunteers. A lot of rail nerds will jump at the chance to put in sweat equity if they have a chance of sitting at the throttle of a real engine. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: zootowerprr@webtv.net >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY >Date: Mon, 10 Jun, 2002, 21:07 > > > Hello List, > > Got back from Altoona yesterday and saw first hand the sad state of > the Railroader's Museum. Just as I walked through the doors, two > employees were crying. They had just lost thier jobs at the museum. I > think only one person was working there. The gift shop was bare. > Hoseshoe Curve wasn't too much better. Gift shop empty. Maybe two > people working. The trees have not been cut,( as promised) and the GP-9 > is slowly being vandalized. > I guess the K4's Roundhouse Project will be put on hold. I really > hope things work out for the museum. It's a great museum dedicated to > the Pennsy,it's workforce, and the city of Altoona. > > Dave Hopson > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 08:34:08 -0500 Last time I was at the Galveston RR museum, there was a poring rain. One of the cars leaked like a sieve. And all smelled very musty. This is a shame, since at least one of the Pullmans appears to represent a very early effort at conversion to all private room facilites, with compartments, drawing rooms, and double bed rooms. I remember one person (maybe you) who was in an adjeacent building running his trains on an HO layout. He dscribed the events you describe below. My question: has any of these events resulted in increased funding for the museum? -----Original Message----- From: Donald E. Harper, Jr [mailto:harperd@tamug.tamu.edu] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 8:12 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY Paul Harvey's old adage "Nobody ever spent themselves rich." is correct. The Galveston Railroad Museum ran into similar problems a few years ago. Instead of being frugal, tons of money were spent (pissed away -pardon my French) on administration and a fiasco of a fund raising effort that cost something like $70,000 and netted $20,000. The Museum spiraled downward and eventually the bloated staff was pared to an Executive Director, a janitor, and 4 or 5 part timers who man the ticket booths. Car maintenance was never a priority under the old regime, and there is no money now, so it is creeping along whenever I can spend some time down there, or can attract volunteers to help. The Museum has been limping along like this since before I got involved in 1996. My observation after 6 years on the Board is that visitors will come to look at static displays only so many times. Something has to move. If the K-4 is ever finished, and they run it occasionally at Altoona, I suspect there will be a line out the door and down the street waiting to get in. Couple of weeks ago I spent a Saturday morning with a group of Girl Scouts who spent the night in our Pullman cars and gave them rides in the cab of our diesel switcher. They were thrilled beyond belief, and this has resulted in at least one Boy Scout Railroading Merit Badge class being scheduled, which will bring additional funds into the Museum coffers. The Altoona Museum was great when I visited a couple of years ago. Lots of interactive stuff in the building, very well presented displays, etc. BUT, Interactive and static displays will carry you only so far. People like to get up close and personal with real equipment, particularly running equipment. Perhaps Altoona should expand beyond what they were doing. Offer merit badge classes. Offer a "Hand on the Throttle" program (if there is anyplace to run an engine). Attract volunteers. A lot of rail nerds will jump at the chance to put in sweat equity if they have a chance of sitting at the throttle of a real engine. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: zootowerprr@webtv.net >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY >Date: Mon, 10 Jun, 2002, 21:07 > > > Hello List, > > Got back from Altoona yesterday and saw first hand the sad state of > the Railroader's Museum. Just as I walked through the doors, two > employees were crying. They had just lost thier jobs at the museum. I > think only one person was working there. The gift shop was bare. > Hoseshoe Curve wasn't too much better. Gift shop empty. Maybe two > people working. The trees have not been cut,( as promised) and the GP-9 > is slowly being vandalized. > I guess the K4's Roundhouse Project will be put on hold. I really > hope things work out for the museum. It's a great museum dedicated to > the Pennsy,it's workforce, and the city of Altoona. > > Dave Hopson > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders museum Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:55:27 +0000 I think there are a couple of problems that can't be fixed. Altoona really isn't convenient even to those passing through PA on I-80 or the turnpike. The average tourist just isn't into a historical railroad presentaion for their vacation. Maybe someone into transportation history but most people want sonething fun and upbeat. Altoona isn't it and never will be unfortunately. Don't forget most out of state people are on their way somewhere and it would take a minimum of three hours to detour there. You have to really want to go there. Secondly, If I am an out of state visitor and I have a choice of Steamtown with running equipment or Altoona with a static display I am heading for Steamtown for the variety alone. We are biased in our assessment of what makes Altoona worth visiting. If you are Mom and Pop passing through and you have a choice of Gettysburg, Hershey, Steamtown or Altoona which one wins out? Probably not Altoona. If they put track three back on the curve so they don't interfere with NS trains and use it to run excursions up to Galitzen and back I'll be the first in line (so will a lot of other people probably). I go "home" to Philadelphia on rare occasions now. I used to go quite regularly when my parents were alive. I have only been able to stop at the curve twice in 30-40 visits east due to all the family considerations. When you have a drive to Chicago to complete you can't stay for very long. The Railroaders museum for me will be an after retirement event if it is still around then. Those of you who can jump in the car and take a day to visit the PRR don't know how fortunate you are. How many times a year do you visit? I doubt if you go there more than once or twice. I don't think the long term prognosis is good under any scenario. There just isn't a large enough, close enough interested population to make it go. Just my opinion, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:04:00 EDT Subject: [PRR] Tipton, Pennsylvania on the PRR --part1_8.278b355e.2a375d50_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/11/02 1:11:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: PRR water companies > From: "robert netzlof" > Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:49:11 -0700 (PDT) > > Ever since the exchanges about NC/NG tower and the > water-works in the Indian Creek valley, I've been > combing the Dreaded Basement and have yet to find the > @#$% book I cited. > > However, I did come up with the Valuation Report on > PRR, circa 1918, which, under "Investments in Other > Companies", sub-head "Affiliated noncarrier > companies", sub-sub-head "Stocks", has a list which > includes the following: > > Blair Gap Water Supply Company > Blandburg Water Company > Citizens Water Company of Scottdale > Clearview Water Supply Company > Dauphin Consolidated Water Supply Company > Dunbar Water Supply Company > Greenmount Water Supply Company > High Ridge Water Supply Company > Katherine Water Company > Mountain Water Supply Company > Nekoda Water Supply Company > Octoraro Water Company > Shamokin Dam Water Company > South River Water Company > Summit Water Supply Company > Tipton Water Company <--- Attention, Rick. > Trout Run Water Supply Company > Winslow Water Company > > Persons interested in the amounts of the investments > may consult: > > http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Corphist/ > > select "Pennsylvania Railroad" and then "Investment in > Other..." > > All this proves nothing in particular, but does > indicate that PRR had a keen interest in water. The > Pennsylvania Company had a similarly long list of > "other companies", but hardly any water companies. > > > > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > Thanks Bob, Tipton PA is a small town (and ETT point) between Altoona and Tyrone. As such, it seems reasonable that their water company fits the pattern of your list -- probably sources of locomotive water, for one thing. When I visited Tipton PA, I saw 1. the main line 2. the Tipton Volunteer Fire Department, and 3. the Tipton plant of PPG or PPG Paints As I say, it's a small town. Incidentally, I've never been able to pick up the tale of the naming of Tipton PA. Even though the bulk of American Tiptons lived in Maryland or points south and west, I've heard of a few Tiptons in central and northern Pennsylvania. Rick Tipton Only slightly behind on the geneology beloved of my Tipton cousins. Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_8.278b355e.2a375d50_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/11/02 1:11:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: PRR water companies
From: "robert netzlof" <wb3iqe@rocketmail.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 18:49:11 -0700 (PDT)

Ever since the exchanges about NC/NG tower and the
water-works in the Indian Creek valley, I've been
combing the Dreaded Basement and have yet to find the
@#$% book I cited.

However, I did come up with the Valuation Report on
PRR, circa 1918, which, under "Investments in Other
Companies", sub-head "Affiliated noncarrier
companies", sub-sub-head "Stocks", has a list which
includes the following:

Blair Gap Water Supply Company
Blandburg Water Company
Citizens Water Company of Scottdale
Clearview Water Supply Company 
Dauphin Consolidated Water Supply Company 
Dunbar Water Supply Company
Greenmount Water Supply Company
High Ridge Water Supply Company
Katherine Water Company
Mountain Water Supply Company
Nekoda Water Supply Company
Octoraro Water Company
Shamokin Dam Water Company
South River Water Company
Summit Water Supply Company
Tipton Water Company           <--- Attention, Rick.
Trout Run Water Supply Company
Winslow Water Company

Persons interested in the amounts of the investments
may consult:

http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Corphist/

select "Pennsylvania Railroad" and then "Investment in
Other..."

All this proves nothing in particular, but does
indicate that PRR had a keen interest in water. The
Pennsylvania Company had a similarly long list of
"other companies", but hardly any water companies.





=====
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob


Thanks Bob,

Tipton PA is a small town (and ETT point) between Altoona and Tyrone.  As such, it seems reasonable that their water company fits the pattern of your list -- probably sources of locomotive water, for one thing.

When I visited Tipton PA, I saw
1. the main line
2. the Tipton Volunteer Fire Department, and
3. the Tipton plant of PPG or PPG Paints
As I say, it's a small town.

Incidentally, I've never been able to pick up the tale of the naming of Tipton PA.  Even though the bulk of American Tiptons lived in Maryland or points south and west, I've heard of a few Tiptons in central and northern Pennsylvania.

Rick Tipton
Only slightly behind on the geneology beloved of my Tipton cousins.

Rick Tipton
Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana.
Email RickTipton@aol.com
Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please)
Wolf Penn Station
5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive
Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_8.278b355e.2a375d50_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders museum Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:04:51 -0500 I don't disagree with what your comments. It's rather unfortunate that about a decade ago, the politicians around Scranton had the political clout to develop Steam town. What wonders could have been done with this same money at Altoona. From any objective historical perspective, Altoona was a much more significant railroading town. -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 8:55 AM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders museum I think there are a couple of problems that can't be fixed. Altoona really isn't convenient even to those passing through PA on I-80 or the turnpike. The average tourist just isn't into a historical railroad presentaion for their vacation. Maybe someone into transportation history but most people want sonething fun and upbeat. Altoona isn't it and never will be unfortunately. Don't forget most out of state people are on their way somewhere and it would take a minimum of three hours to detour there. You have to really want to go there. Secondly, If I am an out of state visitor and I have a choice of Steamtown with running equipment or Altoona with a static display I am heading for Steamtown for the variety alone. We are biased in our assessment of what makes Altoona worth visiting. If you are Mom and Pop passing through and you have a choice of Gettysburg, Hershey, Steamtown or Altoona which one wins out? Probably not Altoona. If they put track three back on the curve so they don't interfere with NS trains and use it to run excursions up to Galitzen and back I'll be the first in line (so will a lot of other people probably). I go "home" to Philadelphia on rare occasions now. I used to go quite regularly when my parents were alive. I have only been able to stop at the curve twice in 30-40 visits east due to all the family considerations. When you have a drive to Chicago to complete you can't stay for very long. The Railroaders museum for me will be an after retirement event if it is still around then. Those of you who can jump in the car and take a day to visit the PRR don't know how fortunate you are. How many times a year do you visit? I doubt if you go there more than once or twice. I don't think the long term prognosis is good under any scenario. There just isn't a large enough, close enough interested population to make it go. Just my opinion, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:22:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders museum From: Jerry Britton What is the "financial foundation" of the Altoona museum... Strasburg is a state museum, Steamtown is a National park (or something). Is Altoona locally owned and operated? I agree that, with Altoona being somewhat landlocked, running excursions are probably the only thing that will save it long-term. The museum building is first-rate, but how many times can you look at the same stuff. The prototype collection is pretty poor, and in pretty poor shape. I think if they could arrange one excursion per day it would suffice. Perhaps all the way to Johnstown with a layover for the Johnstown flood museum. But one has to ask, if the museum folds (an extreme possibility), what happens to 1361? I certainly would hope that selfishness could be set aside and the unit willed (or at least loaned) to Strasburg. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mouldymay@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:33:07 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders museum --part1_9b.28b6f153.2a376423_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Altoona had one Railroad Scranton had at least eleven Railroads, Scranton was probably server by railroads than any other US City. Which is the most significant Railroad City? --part1_9b.28b6f153.2a376423_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Altoona had one Railroad
Scranton had at least eleven Railroads, Scranton was probably server by railroads than any other US City.
Which is the most significant Railroad City? --part1_9b.28b6f153.2a376423_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 10:44:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders museum From: Jerry Britton On 6/11/02 10:33 AM, Mouldymay@aol.com (Mouldymay@aol.com) wrote: > Altoona had one Railroad > Scranton had at least eleven Railroads, Scranton was probably server by > railroads than any other US City. > Which is the most significant Railroad City? And how many Canadian railroads came through? I have to ask since I know a good majority of the collection is Canadian...if only because they started so late! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:28:02 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders museum --part1_3c.1f830536.2a377102_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List, Ditto Norm Bell's comments on the RR's Museum. We visited the Curve and the museum last July on a trip "back" east from Colorado. The trip to Altoona from I-80 is not what one would call a tourist route In fact, if I hadn't grown up in Pa. with its narrow winding roads running past everyones' front porch, I would have found the drive a little stressful. The Turnpike route from the south is much better but still has some sections of narrow, open-access roads. The third route, only a railfan would consider this drive along the mainline from the east as timely. Yes, the museum first suffers from a location problem. Second, the other posting of the downfalls of a static museum is on the mark. The rusting hulks sitting outside can hardly evoke any emotion, whether you are a railfan or casual observer, of anything but decay due to lack of finances (a.k.a.: support). I belonged to the Rough & Tumble Engineers' Museum at Kinzers, Pa., a farm museum that was heavily into steam operations. Every May there was the spring clean up known as Shine-O-Rama where the equipment and the grounds were tidied up. The event was publicized with a fair number of engines under steam and there was a respectable turnout. At this event there would be several traction engines (steam tractors), the steam train ride and a few pieces of steam driven farm equipment in use. In August, there was the annual reunion, where engines were drawn in from all over the country plus Canada. This event lasted all week and had demonstrations ranging from making applebutter, steam models of all descriptions, operating stationary mill engines to traction engines operating a wide range of machinery. The spring event made a little operating income and the August show was the icing on the financial cake. Getting the drift? Annual events to attract gate revenues. Publicity to attract the general public and tour groups; tap the local businesses for support with the incitement of their gaining additional income from museum visitors. May be even a small gauged steam train pulling visitors around that large grassy area so that people not familiar with steam might get a hint of what the museum is about. Tripping out on the far side (this is reaching!), steam runs to the curve or the tunnels and back, may be once or twice a year. After all, Steamtown shouldn't be the only one to host an annual steam weekend. Lastly, if the museum were to adopt a more aggressive attitude towards attracting customers, an annual meeting of volunteers to do restoration work would be in order. Look at what the Friends of the Cumbres & Toltec have done to the old narrow gauge line in Colorado & New Mexico. Could we SPF types stand each others' company for a week or two during the year while doing restoration work? I was totally disheartened to see that GG-1 in such a forlorn state. These were the Queens, the hallmark of Pennsy electrification, which I remember racing by at 85 per on the Philly-Harrisburg passenger runs -- that rust cancered piece at the museum does not convey this. Just some thoughts. See you in your work clothes in Altoona sometime? I could force myself into an annual trip back to Pennsy. Evan Leisey --part1_3c.1f830536.2a377102_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List,

 Ditto Norm Bell's comments on the RR's Museum.  We visited the Curve and the museum last July on a trip "back" east from Colorado.  The trip to Altoona from I-80 is not what one would call a tourist route  In fact, if I hadn't grown up in Pa. with its narrow winding roads running past everyones' front porch,  I would have found the drive a little stressful.  The  Turnpike route from the south is much better but still has some sections of narrow, open-access roads. The third route, only a railfan would consider this drive along the mainline from the east as timely.  Yes,  the museum first suffers from a location problem.

 Second,  the other posting of the downfalls of a static museum is on the mark.  The rusting hulks sitting outside can hardly evoke any emotion, whether you are a railfan or casual observer,  of anything but decay due to lack of finances (a.k.a.: support).

 I belonged to the Rough & Tumble Engineers' Museum at Kinzers, Pa., a farm museum that was heavily into steam operations.  Every May there was the spring clean up known as Shine-O-Rama where the equipment and the grounds were tidied up.  The event was publicized with a fair number of engines under steam and there was a respectable turnout.  At this event  there would be several traction engines (steam tractors),  the steam train ride and a few pieces of steam driven farm equipment in use.  In August, there was the annual reunion, where engines were drawn in from all over the country plus Canada.  This event lasted all week and had demonstrations ranging from making applebutter, steam models of all descriptions, operating stationary mill engines to traction engines operating a wide range of machinery.  The spring event made a little operating income and the August show was the icing on the financial cake.  

 Getting the drift?  Annual events to attract gate revenues. Publicity to attract the general public and tour groups;  tap the local businesses for support with the incitement of their gaining additional income from museum visitors.  May be even a small gauged steam train pulling visitors around that large grassy area so that people not familiar with steam might get a hint of what the museum is about.  Tripping out on the far side (this is reaching!),  steam runs to the curve or the tunnels and back, may be once or twice a year.  After all,  Steamtown shouldn't be the only one to host an annual steam weekend.

 Lastly,  if the museum were to adopt a more aggressive attitude towards attracting customers,  an annual meeting of volunteers to do restoration work would be in order.  Look at what the Friends of the Cumbres & Toltec have done to the old narrow gauge line in Colorado & New Mexico.  Could we SPF types stand each others' company for a week or two during the year while doing restoration work?  I was totally disheartened to see that GG-1 in such a forlorn state.  These were the Queens, the hallmark of Pennsy electrification, which I remember racing by at 85 per on the Philly-Harrisburg passenger runs  -- that rust cancered piece at the museum does not convey this.

 Just some thoughts.  See you in your work clothes in Altoona sometime?  I could force myself into an annual trip back to Pennsy.

 Evan Leisey




--part1_3c.1f830536.2a377102_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Altoona and the museum Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:27:58 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01C2113B.09B9A820 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well- I listened to all your comments and have to voice my opinion. I was = with Dave Hopson this weekend. It was my first trip to the area and = here are my thoughts. Altoona is a phenomenal area to railfan. Nowhere in the world will you = find 3 (4) track main line mountain railroading. The museum was that = of world class exhibition. The exhibits are extremely interactive and = informative. Horseshoe Curve is an engineering marvel and the tunnels = are awesome. We photographed in detail from Alto to Cresson including = Alto tower, slope area, brickyard, MG tower, SF interlocking and the = slide, the old coke ovens by the slide, the portals on both sides, = Gallitzen, UN, AR, the return loops, rt 53 bridge area, and Cresson, = including many of the Lines West signal bridges. I had an incredible visit since the company I was with is very = knowledgible to the area, but the area is not conducive for a world = class museum. Altoona lost all of its industry with the PRR. In other areas, ie. = Philadelphia, you have large corporations/industry like the = pharmaceutical industry that aid in the funding process for education. = Also, other areas have a profficient convention and visitors bureau to = bring people to the area. Cambria and Blair counties dont have much to = offer in reference to facilities for conventions. I looked throught the = visitors guide and did not see much going on as of meeting/comvention = industry events. Furthermore, Horseshoe Curve is a discrace. The curve is so overgrown, = you hear engines, they pop out from the trees, then disappear within 20 = seconds. Numerous beautiful signs at the curve asking for donations so = $10,000 can be raised to match the $40,000 already allocated for tree = removal. How long has that sign been there? A while from what I hear. = The funicular was a waste of money. As beautiful as it is, it was not = needed for the amount of people visiting the curve. A 2-3 person = handicap accessible covered chair lift would have saved tons of money = and serve the purpose. Also, I am very disappointed that the Horseshoe = dedication stonework was removed.=20 I feel many wrong decisions were executed by management and they = obviously did not refer to consultants to do the job. Many company's = would jump at the chance to consult the board on what to do. I know a = few people that would only ask for travelling expenses be paid to come = and look at the situation and map out a plan for progression. As I walked into the museum, the employees at the front desk were crying = because they just lost their jobs. The future, from what I was told, is = to have the majority of the workforce be volunteers running the museum = and Horseshoe. =20 Not to mention, I asked if they had any souvenir whistles for my = nephew(and myself!). I was told how popular they are but they dont have = any in stock. Now it seems operating expenses are being shifted to = cover employee payroll cost. Things don't look good. They definitely = need 1361 running to bring in the people. A running steamer as famous = at 1361 would definitely brighten up the situation. On another note, the Tunnel Inn is thee place to stay. Mike, the owner = is very nice and the facility is spotless. For the price, you cant beat = it. www.thetunnelinn.com Their is something majestic about being on = top of the Allegheny Mountains where immigrant laborers with blood and = sweat handpicked their way through solid rockbed for the PRR and the = grade is at its climax. I hope the museum can get on track. It has so much to offer. The = directors need to get out and start promoting the place. It should have = busloads of school children from all the area schools withing 1 1/2 = hours driving time circumference visiting to learn how the PRR was so = successful at being the first and largest industry America ever had. I cannot wait to return to the area and travel off the beaten path to = those remote areas only seen by hiking in. Well worth the trip. Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr. Audio-Visual Solutions, Inc. ------=_NextPart_000_005D_01C2113B.09B9A820 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well-
 
I listened to all your comments and have to voice my = opinion.  I was with Dave Hopson this weekend.  It was my = first=20 trip to the area and here are my thoughts.
 
Altoona is a phenomenal area to railfan.  = Nowhere in the=20 world will you find  3 (4) track main line mountain = railroading.  The=20 museum was that of world class exhibition.  = The=20 exhibits are extremely interactive and informative.  Horseshoe = Curve is an=20 engineering marvel and the tunnels are awesome.  We photographed in = detail=20 from Alto to Cresson including Alto tower, slope area, brickyard, MG = tower, SF=20 interlocking and the slide, the old coke ovens by the slide, the portals = on both=20 sides, Gallitzen, UN, AR, the return loops, rt 53 bridge area, and = Cresson,=20 including many of the Lines West signal bridges.
 
I had an incredible visit since the company I was = with is very=20 knowledgible to the area, but the area is not conducive for a world = class=20 museum.
 
Altoona lost all of its industry with the PRR.  = In other=20 areas, ie. Philadelphia, you have large corporations/industry like the=20 pharmaceutical industry that aid in the funding process for = education. =20 Also, other areas have a profficient convention and visitors bureau to = bring=20 people to the area.  Cambria and Blair counties dont have much to = offer in=20 reference to facilities for conventions.  I looked throught the = visitors=20 guide and did not see much going on as of meeting/comvention industry=20 events.
 
Furthermore, Horseshoe Curve is a discrace.  = The curve is=20 so overgrown, you hear engines, they pop out from the trees, then = disappear=20 within 20 seconds.  Numerous beautiful signs at the curve asking = for=20 donations so $10,000 can be raised to match the $40,000 already = allocated for=20 tree removal.  How long has that sign been there?  A while = from what I=20 hear.  The funicular was a waste of money.  As beautiful as it = is, it=20 was not needed for the amount of people visiting the curve.  A 2-3 = person=20 handicap accessible covered chair lift would have saved tons of money = and serve=20 the purpose.  Also, I am very disappointed that the Horseshoe = dedication=20 stonework  was removed. 
 
I feel many wrong decisions were executed by = management and=20 they obviously did not refer to consultants to do the job.  Many = company's=20 would jump at the chance to consult the board on what to do.  I = know a few=20 people that would only ask for travelling expenses be paid to come and = look at=20 the situation and map out a plan for progression.
 
As I walked into the museum, the employees at the = front desk=20 were crying because they just lost their jobs.  The future, from = what I was=20 told, is to have the majority of the  workforce be volunteers = running the=20 museum and Horseshoe. 
 
Not to mention, I asked if they had any souvenir = whistles for=20 my nephew(and myself!). I was told how popular they are but they dont = have any=20 in stock.  Now it seems operating expenses are being shifted to = cover=20 employee payroll cost.  Things don't look good.  They = definitely need=20 1361 running to bring in the people.  A running steamer as famous = at 1361=20 would definitely brighten up the situation.
 
On another note, the Tunnel Inn is thee place to = stay. =20 Mike, the owner is very nice and the facility is spotless.  For the = price,=20 you cant beat it.  www.thetunnelinn.com  Their is = something=20 majestic about being on top of the Allegheny Mountains where immigrant = laborers=20 with blood and sweat handpicked their way through solid rockbed for the = PRR and=20 the grade is at its climax.
 
I hope the museum can get on track.  It has so = much to=20 offer.  The directors need to get out and start promoting the = place. =20 It should have busloads of school children from all the area schools = withing 1=20 1/2 hours driving time circumference visiting to learn how the PRR was = so=20 successful at being the first and largest industry America ever=20 had.
 
I cannot wait to return to the area and travel off = the beaten=20 path to those remote areas only seen by hiking in.  Well worth the=20 trip.
 
Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr.
Audio-Visual Solutions,=20 Inc.
------=_NextPart_000_005D_01C2113B.09B9A820-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:47:37 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders museum . . . .but how many cities in North America had a workforce of 16,000 soleoly in the railroad shops, let alone thousands more in train & engine, signal, dispatching, dining-car, office-force, and maintenance-of-way service? Just one. An easy test is to mention the name of the town to anyone at random and ask for a one-word response: When you say "Scranton," the first word that comes to mind is always "coal." When you say "Altoona," the reaction is invariably "railroad." First, last, and always. In Scranton, the railroads supported the coal industry, without which they would never have come to town. In Altoona, the railroad *was* the industry and, for better or worse, *was* the town. That's the distinctive that Altoona brings to the table in a museum and interpretive sense. Scranton has its own story to tell, and the two are not interchangeable. But a fact of life, as noted in many posts here, is that for current-day historic tourism attraction, they do compete. And for the record: -- The area had three short lines, not just the PRR (Wopsononock/Altoona Northern, Glen White, Kittanning Run/S.E.Baker). -- One would think that Chicago, St. Louis/East St. Louis, or Kansas City would easily take the record as city with the most U.S. railroads. Dan Cupper --------------------------- Mouldymay@aol.com wrote: > > Altoona had one Railroad > Scranton had at least eleven Railroads, Scranton was probably server > by railroads than any other US City. > Which is the most significant Railroad City? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 08:59:38 -0700 Subject: [PRR] PRR Tie Spec From: Greg Ritacco List, Does anyone have the specs for Pennsy ties, size 5 through 1? Also, I am looking for the spec for the tie used to hold the third rail, and the spacing, though from photos it looks like every fifth tie or so. Thanks much and any references are greatly appreciated. Greg. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:08:41 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders museum From: Jerry Britton A few thoughts -- if the museum can see itself through another year or two... * As I-99 made traveling to Altoona from the south easier, the north end is currently being extended through State College and will connect direct to I-80 to the east (somewhere near Bellefonte, I believe). This will greatly improve access from the east. * A few weeks ago the Wall Street Journal reported that, get ready for this, Johnstown is seeking to become a convention city! a new convention center is due to open next year. The thought is that since 9/11 many companies wish to avoid big cities. Well, we'll have to wait and see on this one! * Johnstown has a great story to tell (the Flood). Altoona should comarket since they are not far away. * Weekend excursions are a must. If the railroad won't even consider it, then they might as well pull the plug now. * The Curve is operated by the museum, not owned by it. But the attractiveness of the Curve will be increased by cutting down the trees. Forget the $50,000 required to trim. Why don't they just "donate" the resulting wood resources to the company that agrees to clear everything? Seems like a "no brainer" to me! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders museum Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:21:26 -0400 Four words will save the Museum: Thomas the Tank engine! Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:01:51 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Summer 2002 Keystone > Listers, Got my Summer 2002 Keystone yesterday. There is a >modeling article in it. "Scratch-building an NX23 Cabin Car" by Chuck >Cover. I'll leave any comments up to the more knowledgeable denizens of >the list. Chris Chany >From my first read through it seemed to be an interesting article. I am not sure of the quality of the Cannonball X23 parts used, but the article had a nice step by step description. One bone to pick is that it is not a "scratchbuilt" car but rather is clearly a "kitbashed" car! A quick check of the Model RR Warehouse pages http://www.mrrwarehouse.com/default.htm shows that they have an X23/R7 "kit" #840 that has "styrene sides, ends and unique hatches which allow building most any prototype X23, R7 or variation based upon them". I think that their PR might be a little excessive since I'm pretty sure that they only offer vertical sheathing for example...Westerfield is still promising the X23 shortly so it might bear waiting for his to show up! Its nice to see a short modeling article in the Keystone on a subject other than product reviews ;^) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 13:53:59 -0400 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re; Altoona Railroads Museam/ Scranton Folks, Geez, here I'm going to spend a couple days in Altoona next week, with the family no less, on my way east, and I'm starting to get a little discouraged. I was there almost exactly a year ago and the museam didn't seem too bad, but I was pressed for time and didn't stay very long. It sounds though like the place has really declined since then. Most likely after dragging everybody to the Curve, Cresson, the Portage railway site and Cassandra, the kids'll be more receptive to the water park than the museam in any event. As regards Scranton's railroads, I'm a little thrown off. I thought I was fairly familar with the existing railroads of half a century ago, but can't come with with nearly 11 lines for Scranton, at least in the 1950's. I come up with DL&W, Erie, O&W, CNJ, D&H and Laurel Line, though there may have been a shortline or two besides. But the O&W and Laurel Line folded up in the 1950's and the Erie was on a branch. This doesn't come close to comparing to places like Chicago in particular, St.Louie, KC, Buffalo, Minneapolis-St.Paul, Des Moines, Omaha, Memphis, Detroit or New Orleans. Perhaps I'm merely misunderstanding something here. I do agree beyond question that Scranton is better situated for tourist traffic and population centers. Certainly, fans in the PA area can be grateful for having Altoona, Steamtown, Strasburg and most PRRT&HS conventions in such a concentrated area. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: howdy@qnet.com Subject: [PRR] N5-c plans Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:29:51 GMT Hi all, I am planning on building a PRR N5c Cabin Car in 1/8" scale (7 1/2" guage) and am looking for some good dimemsionalized drawings on the net that I can use. If anyone can help, I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks in advance, Howdy Veihdeffer Palmdale, Ca. Transplanted from Clearfield, Pa. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re; Altoona Railroads Museum/ Scranton Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:29:58 -0400 Barry, While in Altoona, go to Lakemont amusement park, ride the oldest standing wooden roller coaster "Leap-the-dips" I believe it reaches an astonishing 12 mph. Try to catch the curve (the baseball team) Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: BPX29@aol.com [mailto:BPX29@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:54 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re; Altoona Railroads Museam/ Scranton Folks, Geez, here I'm going to spend a couple days in Altoona next week, with the family no less, on my way east, and I'm starting to get a little discouraged. I was there almost exactly a year ago and the museam didn't seem too bad, but I was pressed for time and didn't stay very long. It sounds though like the place has really declined since then. Most likely after dragging everybody to the Curve, Cresson, the Portage railway site and Cassandra, the kids'll be more receptive to the water park than the museam in any event. As regards Scranton's railroads, I'm a little thrown off. I thought I was fairly familar with the existing railroads of half a century ago, but can't come with with nearly 11 lines for Scranton, at least in the 1950's. I come up with DL&W, Erie, O&W, CNJ, D&H and Laurel Line, though there may have been a shortline or two besides. But the O&W and Laurel Line folded up in the 1950's and the Erie was on a branch. This doesn't come close to comparing to places like Chicago in particular, St.Louie, KC, Buffalo, Minneapolis-St.Paul, Des Moines, Omaha, Memphis, Detroit or New Orleans. Perhaps I'm merely misunderstanding something here. I do agree beyond question that Scranton is better situated for tourist traffic and population centers. Certainly, fans in the PA area can be grateful for having Altoona, Steamtown, Strasburg and most PRRT&HS conventions in such a concentrated area. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re; Altoona Railroads Museam/ Scranton Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:44:43 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 1:53 PM Subject: [PRR] Re; Altoona Railroads Museam/ Scranton Certainly, fans in the PA area can be grateful for having Altoona, Steamtown, Strasburg and most PRRT&HS conventions in such a concentrated area. Well, that's why its the PENNSYLVANIA Railroad! Lew Matt :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 14:32:37 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" >Marvin Caldwell asked: > My question: has any of these events resulted in increased funding for the > museum? Yes they have, and still do. Before I got involved with the Museum, the Museum had a running steam engine - #555, ex-Magma Arizona RR #5. I am told that people were lined up down the concourse, through the waiting room, and out onto the Strand waiting for a ride that was at best 3/4 of a mile long from the depot tracks to the UP interchange. I can believe it. I witnessed the train running one time and the 3 coaches were full. Problem was: they charged only a buck per person and there was a bloated administrative payroll. (Then some bozo fired the engine up wrong and she is out of commission for lack of at least $100,000.) Since I got involved with the Museum, I started the merit badge program. For one class a couple of years ago we (me and 5 other volunteers) taught 96 scouts. They and their adult supervisors brought in over $700 to the Museum in one day, which was more than the Museum took in in gate receipts for the entire month. We can count on a couple of thousand from the classes each year. Not much but better than nothing and sometimes we recruit members or volunteers. We have had several mid summer special events that have brought in between $10,000 and $30,000. The Galveston museum and, I suspect, the Altoona museum cannot survive on gate receipts alone. The folks at the Altoona Museum need to (IMHO, based on what I have observed): a) pare the paid staff and recruit volunteers b) recruit a board with business sense and start making hard decisions about cash flow (another of the Galveston museum's problems was that everyone with any political connections who liked trains got on the board and the result was chaos). c) start small programs that will bring in cash to supplement the gate receipts d) annual or semi annual special events that will really supplement gate receipts. e) make something move. But if they do, make sure the operators know what they are doing. Don Harper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:15:27 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re; Altoona Railroads Museum Hey Yuze Gize... I have read most of all the post over the past couple of weeks of the museum and it's problems. Sad to hear as I have a personal interest in the museum with the donatation of my Athearn/Genesis PRR Locomotives. The last time I check they were sitting in the curators desk drawer (if they are still there at all) and not on display with the photo Louis Marre supplied. Sad... I heard they wanted to put them on their little layout until I told them that if they were looking for that kind of locomotive I would build them some more durable locomotives. Unfortunately, I have never visited the museum, but I always believed that museums were forever. I have visitied a lot of Rail museums on the west coast and I must say they all seem to ebb and flow, just the nature of the beast. They all struggle for proper funding. I remmeber when the California State Railroad Muesum got it's BIG start everyone said that the Orange Empire Railway Museum would likely fold, and it hasn't and it has grown. These institutions all survive on volunteers and donations. Donations come often from private funding and govenment grants.Donations also iinclude museum piece in this case cars and locomotives and such. I am not sure what made it fall on tough times,poor management, poor funding, high ideals, and misdirected visions of the future... the list goes on and on. I have to agree that most Railroad museums offer a means to move people as an attaction, sometimes steam sometime other means. My question to that is does the Museum have the means to do that? Another thing that comes to mind is does the Museum have a public library/collection that is well cataloged and well maintained? This is always a problem even for historical societies, but like the California State Railroad Museum certainly a way to attract membership. The physical condition of a museum in it beginnings is usually taken with a grain of salt by the visitors, like me, they see this as a work in progress. Now that we all realize what reasons that make the museum a tough place to visit, Lord knows it has been 30 years since I have been in Aloona but that is what I think of when I think of THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD, but how can we help figure out why we should all attend this ICON of the industry, that should be the VISION. I hope to make it back next year, Good Lord willing. So far as seeing a K-4 running well, that would be nice but not what attracts me there. My hopes are that those that are involved with the museum would forget Scratton and focus on what is going on in Sacremento at the California State Railroad Museum. I hope that they realize that model diplays is a cheap way to archive all that the Pennsy was about, just as the displays that are at many other museums, and a real layout of the area like the one housed at the Washington State History Museum in Tacoma maintains with its active HO Scale Modelers. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:16:12 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C21163.4DEB5CA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris hit the nail on the head. Thomas the tank engine would do wonders = for the Museum. Barry, don't worry, the museum is still an awesome place = to visit, just don't expect personal attention - not enough people to do = that. As for the bozo who fired the engine up wrong, what is the possibility = that he=20 was the same bozo running 1361 without lubricating the bearings? If Jerry is correct about 9-11 and how Johnstown may be the site for future conventions, then that would save the entire area. Their is = so much history to offer conventioneers. Being in the meeting planning industry, I would most definitely be intereseted into hosting an event = in the Blair/Cambria County area. Johnstown and Altoona are too close to compete with one another for the same audience. The two should unite = and form a Johnstown/Altoona Area Convention Bureau or alliance and = schedule events around each others so the population from one can support the other. It would = be a win-win situation. For those interested , check out the Allegheny Mountains Convention and = Visitors Bureau at www.visitcentralpa.com This will give you an idea to = the area and what is happening at the moment. Going back to an old = talk-list subject, the Allegheny Ridge Heritage Discovery Center in = Altoona can surely support a PRRTHS National convention. =20 Lastly, it is great that Don is getting involve with Scouts and the = meritbadge project. I am an Eaglescout myself and the meritbadge is what = really got me interested in railroads, besides the one under the xmas = tree.=20 I am sure the museum will see profitable days in the future. It is a = matter of time, energy, and productive strategic marketing efforts in = conjunction with area industry. All things grow in time. Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr. Audio-Visual Solutions, Inc. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 3:32 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY > > >Marvin Caldwell asked: > > > My question: has any of these events resulted in increased funding = for the > > museum? > > Yes they have, and still do. > > Before I got involved with the Museum, the Museum had a running steam > engine - #555, ex-Magma Arizona RR #5. I am told that people were = lined up > down the concourse, through the waiting room, and out onto the Strand > waiting for a ride that was at best 3/4 of a mile long from the depot tracks > to the UP interchange. I can believe it. I witnessed the train = running one > time and the 3 coaches were full. Problem was: they charged only a buck > per person and there was a bloated administrative payroll. (Then some bozo > fired the engine up wrong and she is out of commission for lack of at least > $100,000.) > > Since I got involved with the Museum, I started the merit badge = program. > For one class a couple of years ago we (me and 5 other volunteers) = taught 96 > scouts. They and their adult supervisors brought in over $700 to the Museum > in one day, which was more than the Museum took in in gate receipts = for the > entire month. We can count on a couple of thousand from the classes = each > year. Not much but better than nothing and sometimes we recruit = members or > volunteers. > > We have had several mid summer special events that have brought in = between > $10,000 and $30,000. > > The Galveston museum and, I suspect, the Altoona museum cannot survive = on > gate receipts alone. The folks at the Altoona Museum need to (IMHO, based > on what I have observed): > > a) pare the paid staff and recruit volunteers > b) recruit a board with business sense and start making hard = decisions > about cash flow (another of the Galveston museum's problems was that > everyone with any political connections who liked trains got on the = board > and the result was chaos). > c) start small programs that will bring in cash to supplement the = gate > receipts > d) annual or semi annual special events that will really supplement = gate > receipts. > e) make something move. But if they do, make sure the operators know what > they are doing. > > Don Harper > > > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C21163.4DEB5CA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris hit the nail on the head.  Thomas the = tank engine=20 would do wonders for
the Museum.   Barry, don't worry, the = museum=20 is still an awesome place to
visit, just don't expect personal = attention -=20 not enough people to do that.

As for the bozo who fired the = engine up=20 wrong, what is the possibility that he
was the same bozo running = 1361=20 without lubricating the bearings?

If Jerry is correct about 9-11 = and how=20 Johnstown may be the site
for future conventions, then that would = save the=20 entire area.  Their is so
much history to offer = conventioneers. =20 Being in the meeting planning
industry, I would most definitely be=20 intereseted into hosting an event in
the Blair/Cambria County = area. =20 Johnstown and Altoona are too close to
compete with one another for = the same=20 audience.  The two should unite and
form a Johnstown/Altoona = Area=20 Convention Bureau  or alliance and schedule events around
each = others so=20 the population from one can support the other.  It would be = a
win-win=20 situation.
 
For those interested , check out the Allegheny = Mountains=20 Convention and Visitors Bureau at www.visitcentralpa.com  This = will give you=20 an idea to the area and what is happening at the moment.  Going = back to an=20 old talk-list subject, the Allegheny Ridge Heritage Discovery Center in = Altoona=20 can surely support a PRRTHS National convention. 
 
Lastly, it is great that Don is getting involve with = Scouts=20 and the meritbadge project. I am an Eaglescout myself and the meritbadge = is what=20 really got me interested in railroads, besides the one under the xmas = tree.=20
 
I am sure the museum will see profitable days in the = future.  It is a matter of time, energy, and productive strategic = marketing=20 efforts in conjunction with area industry.  All things grow in=20 time.
 
Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr.
Audio-Visual Solutions,=20 Inc.
 
 
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Donald E. = Harper,=20 Jr" <harperd@tamug.tamu.edu>
To: = <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: = [PRR]=20 ALTOONA RAILROADER'S MEMORIAL MUSEUM DIFFICULTY


>
>=20 >Marvin Caldwell asked:
>
> > My question:  has = any of=20 these events resulted in increased funding for
the
> >=20 museum?
>
> Yes they have, and still do.
>
> = Before I=20 got involved with the Museum, the Museum had  a running = steam
>=20 engine - #555, ex-Magma Arizona RR #5.  I am told that people were=20 lined
up
> down the concourse, through the waiting room, and = out onto=20 the Strand
> waiting for a ride that was at best 3/4 of a mile = long from=20 the depot
tracks
> to the UP interchange.  I can believe = it. =20 I witnessed the train running
one
> time and the 3 coaches were = full.    Problem was:  they charged only = a
buck
>=20 per person and there was a bloated administrative payroll.  (Then=20 some
bozo
> fired the engine up wrong and she is out of = commission for=20 lack of at
least
> $100,000.)
>
> Since I got = involved with=20 the Museum, I started the merit badge program.
> For one class a = couple of=20 years ago we (me and 5 other volunteers) taught
96
> = scouts.  They=20 and their adult supervisors brought in over $700 to = the
Museum
> in one=20 day, which was more than the Museum took in in gate receipts = for
the
>=20 entire month.  We can count on a couple of thousand from the = classes=20 each
> year.  Not much but better than nothing and sometimes = we=20 recruit members
or
> volunteers.
>
> We have had = several=20 mid summer special events that have brought in between
> $10,000 = and=20 $30,000.
>
> The Galveston museum and, I suspect, the = Altoona museum=20 cannot survive on
> gate receipts alone.   The folks at = the=20 Altoona Museum need to (IMHO,
based
> on what I have=20 observed):
>
> a)  pare the paid staff and recruit=20 volunteers
> b)  recruit a board with business sense and = start making=20 hard decisions
> about cash flow (another of the Galveston = museum's=20 problems was that
> everyone with any political connections who = liked=20 trains got on the board
> and the result was chaos).
> = c) =20 start small programs that will bring in cash to supplement the = gate
>=20 receipts
> d)  annual or semi annual special events that will = really=20 supplement gate
> receipts.
> e)  make something = move. =20 But if they do, make sure the operators know
what
> they are=20 doing.
>
> Don Harper
>
>
>=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------->=20 For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>
>

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C21163.4DEB5CA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mouldymay@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:46:08 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: Scranton Vs Altoona --part1_62.20f57e9d.2a37bb90_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I started the Altoona Vs. Scranton argument, when it was mentioned that Scranton was no railroad town. I wrote because any town with 10 or 11 trunk railroads should not be Pooh Pooh-Ed as not being a Railroad town. I am a Pennsylvanian, living in the suburban Philadelphia area and have no allegiance to either town. I agree that Steamtown was a political grab and wondered why the US put money in what amounted to a Canadian Steam Collection. The only good thing about the National RR museum is that it is located in Pennsylvania. My figure of 11 Railroads came from a friend who was born and raised in Scranton. I cannot verify his count, as he had chest pains one Saturday, last fall, went to the Doctor the next Tuesday and he was buried in Scranton on Friday of the same week. Looking at my old 1950's RR map book I find the following Trunk lines serving Scranton. DL&W, Lehigh Valley, Delaware & Hudson, Erie, Central of NJ, Pennsylvania, NYO&W, NY Susquehanna & Western. What the two additional roads counted by Joe, were, we will never find out, at least from him. Peter A. Tyrrell Jr. AKA Mouldymay --part1_62.20f57e9d.2a37bb90_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I started the Altoona Vs. Scranton argument, when it was mentioned that Scranton was no railroad town.  I wrote because any town with 10 or 11 trunk railroads should not be Pooh Pooh-Ed as not being a Railroad town.

I am a Pennsylvanian, living in the suburban Philadelphia area and have no allegiance to either town.  I agree that Steamtown was a political grab and wondered why the US put money in what amounted to a Canadian Steam Collection.  The only good thing about the National RR museum is that it is located in Pennsylvania.

My figure of 11 Railroads came from a friend who was born and raised in Scranton.  I cannot verify his count, as he had chest pains one Saturday, last fall, went to the Doctor the next Tuesday and he was buried in Scranton on Friday of the same week.  Looking at my old 1950's RR map book I find the following Trunk lines serving Scranton.

DL&W, Lehigh Valley, Delaware & Hudson, Erie, Central of NJ, Pennsylvania, NYO&W, NY Susquehanna & Western.

What the two additional roads counted by Joe, were, we will never find out, at least from him.


Peter A. Tyrrell Jr.
AKA Mouldymay

 --part1_62.20f57e9d.2a37bb90_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Scranton Vs Altoona Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:45:51 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C2116F.D4317BD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The PRR went to Wilkes Barre. Also, don't forget the electric Laurel = Line. Jeff Smith ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mouldymay@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 4:46 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: Scranton Vs Altoona I started the Altoona Vs. Scranton argument, when it was mentioned = that Scranton was no railroad town. I wrote because any town with 10 or = 11 trunk railroads should not be Pooh Pooh-Ed as not being a Railroad = town. I am a Pennsylvanian, living in the suburban Philadelphia area and = have no allegiance to either town. I agree that Steamtown was a = political grab and wondered why the US put money in what amounted to a = Canadian Steam Collection. The only good thing about the National RR = museum is that it is located in Pennsylvania. My figure of 11 Railroads came from a friend who was born and raised = in Scranton. I cannot verify his count, as he had chest pains one = Saturday, last fall, went to the Doctor the next Tuesday and he was = buried in Scranton on Friday of the same week. Looking at my old 1950's = RR map book I find the following Trunk lines serving Scranton. DL&W, Lehigh Valley, Delaware & Hudson, Erie, Central of NJ, = Pennsylvania, NYO&W, NY Susquehanna & Western. What the two additional roads counted by Joe, were, we will never find = out, at least from him. Peter A. Tyrrell Jr. AKA Mouldymay ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C2116F.D4317BD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The PRR went to Wilkes Barre.  = Also, don't=20 forget the electric Laurel Line.
 
Jeff Smith
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mouldymay@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 = 4:46=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Re: Scranton Vs=20 Altoona

I started = the Altoona=20 Vs. Scranton argument, when it was mentioned that Scranton was no = railroad=20 town.  I wrote because any town with 10 or 11 trunk railroads = should not=20 be Pooh Pooh-Ed as not being a Railroad town.

I am a=20 Pennsylvanian, living in the suburban Philadelphia area and have no = allegiance=20 to either town.  I agree that Steamtown was a political grab and = wondered=20 why the US put money in what amounted to a Canadian Steam = Collection. =20 The only good thing about the National RR museum is that it is located = in=20 Pennsylvania.

My figure of 11 Railroads came from a friend who = was born=20 and raised in Scranton.  I cannot verify his count, as he had = chest pains=20 one Saturday, last fall, went to the Doctor the next Tuesday and he = was buried=20 in Scranton on Friday of the same week.  Looking at my old 1950's = RR map=20 book I find the following Trunk lines serving = Scranton.

DL&W,=20 Lehigh Valley, Delaware & Hudson, Erie, Central of NJ, = Pennsylvania,=20 NYO&W, NY Susquehanna & Western.

What the two = additional roads=20 counted by Joe, were, we will never find out, at least from=20 him.


Peter A. Tyrrell Jr.
AKA=20 Mouldymay

 ------=_NextPart_000_0059_01C2116F.D4317BD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:53:07 -0400 Group, Couple of questions concerning this car. When was it put into service? How many were built? I noticed in Model Railroad Craftsman yesterday that Railworks is making an HO version. I was wondering if it would be appropriate for the late steam diesel era? Thanks in advance Sam Vastano McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. PH 724-368-8040 X243 Fax 724-368-9677 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 19:53:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. If you're looking for a great place to stay in the Altoona area, you must check out the Tunnel Inn in Gallitzin Pa. It's a really nice bed & breakfast inn. And the view can't be beat! The Inn is right at the Gallitzin Portals at the Jackson St. bridge. Cable TV and air conditioning in every room. A must if you take the wife and kids. The deck out back has an great view of the trains exiting the tunnels. I was told if you stand on the deck long enough, you may catch PRR's MAIL-9 with a T-1 with two K4s helpers on the point with 60 X29s,R50s, and a P70 rider coach. Maybe. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 21:14:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. --part1_90.272d181c.2a37fa5e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/11/02 5:02:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: > > > > If you're looking for a great place to stay in the Altoona area, > you must check out the Tunnel Inn in Gallitzin Pa. It's a really nice > bed & breakfast inn. And the view can't be beat! The Inn is right at > the Gallitzin Portals at the Jackson St. bridge. Cable TV and air > conditioning in every room. A must if you take the wife and kids. > The deck out back has an great view of the trains exiting the > tunnels. I was told if you stand on the deck long enough, you may catch > PRR's MAIL-9 with a T-1 with two K4s helpers on the point with 60 > X29s,R50s, and a P70 rider coach. Maybe. > > Dave > Dave, If you catch the Mail-9 you haven't been standing on the deck long enough... you've been standing at the bar to long ! ! :-) For my money, and IMHO, I'll take The Station Inn anyday over the Tunnel Inn! ! ! Jon S. --part1_90.272d181c.2a37fa5e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/11/02 5:02:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes:





     If you're looking for a great place to stay in the Altoona area,
you must check out the Tunnel Inn in Gallitzin Pa. It's a really nice
bed & breakfast inn. And the view can't be beat!  The Inn is right at
the Gallitzin Portals at the Jackson St. bridge. Cable TV and air
conditioning in every room. A must if you take the wife and kids.
      The deck out back has an great view of the trains exiting the
tunnels. I was told if you stand on the deck long enough, you may catch
PRR's MAIL-9 with a T-1 with two K4s helpers on the point with 60
X29s,R50s, and a P70 rider coach. Maybe.

Dave


Dave,
If you catch the Mail-9 you haven't  been standing on the deck long enough... you've been standing at the bar to long ! ! :-)
For my money, and IMHO, I'll take The Station Inn anyday over the Tunnel Inn! ! !

Jon S. --part1_90.272d181c.2a37fa5e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 21:52:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Jon, O.K. Maybe your right on the bar part. The Station Inn is nice to. Was there about 3 years ago. This was my first time at the Tunnel Inn. They both get high marks. We'll meet up in Altoona one day, have a few drinks,and we'll both watch MAIL-9 go by! :-) Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:00:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. --part1_14f.f2d06c6.2a380542_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/11/02 6:55:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: > > O.K. Maybe your right on the bar part. The Station Inn is nice to. > Was there about 3 years ago. This was my first time at the Tunnel Inn. > They both get high marks. > We'll meet up in Altoona one day, have a few drinks,and we'll both > watch > MAIL-9 go by! :-) > > Dave > Hey Dave- I truely look forward to it. Save me a space at the bar AND at trackside ! ! ! :-) Jon --part1_14f.f2d06c6.2a380542_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/11/02 6:55:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes:



    O.K.   Maybe your right on the bar part. The Station Inn is nice to.
Was there about 3 years ago. This was my first time at the Tunnel Inn.
They both get high marks.
     We'll meet up in Altoona one day, have a few drinks,and we'll both
watch
MAIL-9 go by! :-)

Dave


Hey Dave-
I truely look forward to it.  Save me a space at the bar AND at trackside ! ! ! :-)

Jon --part1_14f.f2d06c6.2a380542_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:19:12 EDT Subject: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? As in "Operation Market Garden" isn't the simple answer that ALTOONA is just one museum to far - not only that - they divided their forces and tryed to operate 2 or 3 sites when, perhaps they should have concentrated their activities at The Curve" and not gotten involved with all the rotting equipment downtown? I haven't been there in some time. but DOWNSIZING is a word that comes to mind. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Charles Ring Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:29:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > If you're looking for a great place to stay in the Altoona area, > you must check out the Tunnel Inn in Gallitzin Pa. It's a really nice > bed & breakfast inn. And the view can't be beat! The Inn is right at > the Gallitzin Portals at the Jackson St. bridge. Cable TV and air > conditioning in every room. A must if you take the wife and kids. > The deck out back has an great view of the trains exiting the > tunnels. I was told if you stand on the deck long enough, you may catch > PRR's MAIL-9 with a T-1 with two K4s helpers on the point with 60 > X29s,R50s, and a P70 rider coach. Maybe. > > Dave if only,,, A practical matter: how was it possible to run steamers in any but the shortest of tunnels? The smoke must have been enough to asphyixiate crew members? today's diesel fumes can't be real healthy either.. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCSUS]" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Scranton Vs Altoona Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:11:27 -0400 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2118C.8CECBEA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I don't think the LV, PRR, or NYS&W (actually WB&E) served Scranton proper but rather nearby Wilkes-Barre. And you list contains 8 RRs leaving 3 unaccounted for. Perhaps he included the Lehigh Valley Traction Company? His count may have included some older predescessor roads. For example the CNJ was known as the PRRofPA for a while and the Lehigh & Susquehanna before that. Or successor roads, such as Erie Lackawanna, Penn Central, ConRail, Canadian Pacific, etc. In any case, Scranton was most definately a RR town, seeing not only the number of RRs serving the coal mines there, but also the DL&Ws major shop complex which for a while built steam locos much like the PRR in Altoona, though on a lower order of magnitude (as would be expected for a road the size of the DL&W compared to the PRR). Bill -----Original Message----- From: Mouldymay@aol.com [mailto:Mouldymay@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 4:46 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: Scranton Vs Altoona I started the Altoona Vs. Scranton argument, when it was mentioned that Scranton was no railroad town. I wrote because any town with 10 or 11 trunk railroads should not be Pooh Pooh-Ed as not being a Railroad town. I am a Pennsylvanian, living in the suburban Philadelphia area and have no allegiance to either town. I agree that Steamtown was a political grab and wondered why the US put money in what amounted to a Canadian Steam Collection. The only good thing about the National RR museum is that it is located in Pennsylvania. My figure of 11 Railroads came from a friend who was born and raised in Scranton. I cannot verify his count, as he had chest pains one Saturday, last fall, went to the Doctor the next Tuesday and he was buried in Scranton on Friday of the same week. Looking at my old 1950's RR map book I find the following Trunk lines serving Scranton. DL&W, Lehigh Valley, Delaware & Hudson, Erie, Central of NJ, Pennsylvania, NYO&W, NY Susquehanna & Western. What the two additional roads counted by Joe, were, we will never find out, at least from him. Peter A. Tyrrell Jr. AKA Mouldymay ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2118C.8CECBEA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
I don't think the LV,  PRR, or NYS&W (actually WB&E) served Scranton proper but rather nearby Wilkes-Barre.  And you list contains 8 RRs leaving 3 unaccounted for.  Perhaps he included the Lehigh Valley Traction Company?  His count may have included some older predescessor roads.  For example the CNJ was known as the PRRofPA for a while and the Lehigh & Susquehanna before that. Or successor roads, such as Erie Lackawanna, Penn Central, ConRail, Canadian Pacific, etc.
 
In any case, Scranton was most definately a RR town, seeing not only the number of RRs serving the coal mines there, but also the DL&Ws major shop complex which for a while built steam locos much like the PRR in Altoona, though on a lower order of magnitude (as would be expected for a road the size of the DL&W compared to the PRR).
 
Bill
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Mouldymay@aol.com [mailto:Mouldymay@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 4:46 PM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Re: Scranton Vs Altoona

I started the Altoona Vs. Scranton argument, when it was mentioned that Scranton was no railroad town.  I wrote because any town with 10 or 11 trunk railroads should not be Pooh Pooh-Ed as not being a Railroad town.

I am a Pennsylvanian, living in the suburban Philadelphia area and have no allegiance to either town.  I agree that Steamtown was a political grab and wondered why the US put money in what amounted to a Canadian Steam Collection.  The only good thing about the National RR museum is that it is located in Pennsylvania.

My figure of 11 Railroads came from a friend who was born and raised in Scranton.  I cannot verify his count, as he had chest pains one Saturday, last fall, went to the Doctor the next Tuesday and he was buried in Scranton on Friday of the same week.  Looking at my old 1950's RR map book I find the following Trunk lines serving Scranton.

DL&W, Lehigh Valley, Delaware & Hudson, Erie, Central of NJ, Pennsylvania, NYO&W, NY Susquehanna & Western.

What the two additional roads counted by Joe, were, we will never find out, at least from him.


Peter A. Tyrrell Jr.
AKA Mouldymay

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2118C.8CECBEA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:09:39 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] How much water did they need in the age of steam? --- sjlash wrote: > Bob, It's no wonder the PRR was interested in these > water companies. From > what I've read and heard reference to, the older > steam locos ate twice as > much water as coal,oil or wood. Having more time than things to do in it, I dug out some sources. "Locomotive Boilers" International Textbook Company, Scranton copyright 1898, 1899, 1900 pg 43 says "In locomotive boilers, 1 pound of coal evaporates 6 to 9 pounds of water, according to the quality of coal, etc." Since 1 gallon of water weighs about 8 pounds ("A pint's a pound the world around"), 1 lb coal will evaporate .75 to 1.25 gal. water. "The Steam Locomotive in America" Alfred W. Bruce copyright 1952 pg 141 mentions a test of a "large 484 type" and says 110,000 lb of water were evaporated by 18,000 lb of coal. That's 6.11 lb water/lb coal. pg 143 talks about the Cole Ratios used in locomotive design and says they assume 6.75 lb water/lb coal. Online at http://www.cwrr.com/Lounge/Reference/baldwin/fig18.gif there is a chart showing coal vs. water consumption for tests of the Baldwin 60000 (the one in the Franklin Institute) at the Altoona test plant. Grabbing a couple pairs of numbers from there: 70000 lb water/11000 lb coal = 6.36 water/coal 40000 lb water/5000 lb coal = 8 water/coal So it appears that if you took off for a trip in your steam locomotive, intending to burn 10 tons of coal, you'd better figure on having 15000 to 20000 gallons of water on hand. Another view: A typical 1917 hopper car held 50 tons of coal. If burning all that in a steam locomotive, be prepared to supply 75000 to 100000 gallons of water. Westmoreland County folk may be interested in the following from the Baldwin 60000 report: "All of the tests were made with run-of-mine bituminous coal from the Keystone Coal and Coke Company's Crows Nest Mine at Hempfield, Westmoreland County, Pennsylvania. This coal is used at the test plant as standard freight locomotive coal." ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:20:33 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] How much water did they need in the age of steam? --- robert netzlof wrote: > 1 lb coal will evaporate .75 to 1.25 gal. water. and he should have said ".75 to 1.125". "I hate it when I'm the 'user' in 'user error'" ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:21:35 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Musuem Greetings to the List, I usually do not make a habit of responding to all the criticizm that I hear lobbed at out Museum but tonight I am going to make an exception. I want to set the record straight on several issues and address some that have been brought up. First of all Mr Hopson and his travelling partner were correct in several of their observations. Yes 5 people lost their jobs at the museum in an effort to cut back on expenses to keep the doors open. We considered these people part of the museum family and it hurt us to see them go but I will not appologize for this action as it had to be done. Secondly the gift shops at the Master Mechanics building and the Curve are horribly understocked. Well if you have read the paper we owe alot of money to our vendors who supply us with merchandise. They have all been very patient and helpful to us as we have promised to pay all back bills and some are allowing us to order more things in small quantities. We have restructured our finances so that gift shop money will only go to pay gift shop bills at this time. In the future "profits" will go into the big pot. We know that looks bad but we are working on it. Mr Hopson quipped that the "Quarter Roundhouse projet is probably on hold. Nothing is farther from the truth and such off the cuff uninformed statements do nothing but harm us. The Quarter Roundhouse has its own funding pool seperate from the general operating fund. We have the money in hand to complete the first phase of the Project which is not much more than you see in the yard now. Basically just a roof and Track. We have been Granted the money to complete Phase 2 which will complete the first bay and put in the 100 foot turntable. We have located one. This money is coming throught the Federal TEA-21 program and this money will not be in hand for awhile. We are doing everything we can to expedite that process and we are getting great support from PenDot whom the money comes to us through on this matter. In case you guys didnt know it , You cant cash those great big checks that they present to you when they announce the grants. The K4 project is alive and well. It too has its own funding pool. I have made several trips to Steamtown keeping up with the project. I have been involved in getting tools and supplies donated to the project and have worked closely with a local tool supplier to give us a big discount on anything we need. The project has a great supervisor in Barry Claar, he is a very knowledgeble man a suberb machinist and has a working knowledge of Steam. Mr Bill Fredrickson is our lead mechanic and is working full time on the project. I dont think we could get a better guy to do this for us. He and Barry have really turned this project around and got it rolling again. I dont have a finish date yet. There have been issues that have came up that have set us back several times. We have identified all the problems and are correcting them and moving forward. Be patient , this is going to be done correctly so we dont have to go back and do things over again. She will be worth the wait. Of course the K4 will run in excursion service. We have several options and are exploring them all. It probably wont run in just one place. The Trees at the Curve. Well they will be cut shortly. You people have no idea how many times we were ready to go to bid on this project and had to start back at square one because of Hoops that we had to jump through. The good old Indiana Bat even made an appearance and let to putting it on hold for a time. I spoke personally to the gentleman who owns the company that will be doing the work and it will start soon. waiting on one last permit or clearance from someone. And by the way we are giving him the wood and there is not that much millable lumber there . It is not that much of a no brainer Mr Britton Thomas the Tank Engine has been suggested as a savior. Well guess what. He is unavailable for about 2 years. All booked up . We have been told Altoona is the wrong place. Well guess what. It all happened in Altoona!!!!! The Curve is near .... you guessed it Altoona. We cant move that stuff and we cant move the museum. Enough said on that. But dont think that has not been brought to our attention before I hear alot of comments some helpful and informed and some not. But the thing I find most interesting is the I have Never seen any of you guys who seem to have all the answers at a single Board meeting. I have only missed one in the 5 years I have been involved with the museum. I have seen you trackside snapping photos of the E8's as they rumbled through the Brickyard and Past Alto . But did you guys but a railfest ticket or ride the train ? Some did and alot did not. I really dont appreciate comments like. " they obviously didn't know what they were doing" Well we may not have made every decision perfectly but We were here and involved in something and giving of our time and effort and money to make something wonderful happen. I dont reply to this list much because I am busy at night communicating with my comrads who are trying like hell to save this place. We are not sitting back pontificating on what other people should be doing , we are figuring out what we can do and then we are doing it. I have gone on long enough. I want all of you to know that I firmly believe that the majority of people want to see us succeed and that people are very curious about things like the curve and the K4 and mostly just want to know what is going on. What we need is allof you to help us out and support us. If you are going to slam us for what we are doing but dont want to help in any way then keep your comments to yourselves. Come to the place. Dave Hopson did and he brought a friend , I thank him with all sincerity. More of you need to come and buy a ticket and bring a friend. We have been getting tremendous support from our local business leaders and community and from our elected officials. Where we lack support the most is among the railfan community. Maybe we dont cater to you enough. We are working on that. Thank you for you time and indulgence in reading this. Dr Andy Mulhollen Secretary Executive Committee Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 23:22:40 -0400 The built date on the decals Railworks provided on the earlier run of the cars is 4/53... Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Sam Vastano Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 6:53 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car Group, Couple of questions concerning this car. When was it put into service? How many were built? I noticed in Model Railroad Craftsman yesterday that Railworks is making an HO version. I was wondering if it would be appropriate for the late steam diesel era? Thanks in advance Sam Vastano McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. PH 724-368-8040 X243 Fax 724-368-9677 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:08:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Charles, There were "blowers" on the East Portals of the Gallitzin Tunnels. They blew the smoke out in front of the trains. Most times, the steam locomotives leading the trains would cut the throttles back to cut the amount of smoke. The rear end helpers push then train through until the lead engines clear the west portals then pick up the pace. The rear end locomotives do the same when they reach the east portals and by the time most of the train is over the grade. Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:35:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] How much water did they need in the age of steam? On the lines west mainline with regular tenders: (prior to long distance tenders) water about every 50 miles Coal about every 100 miles Regards, Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 21:43:37 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Musuem From: "Douglas Nelson" Andy Mulhollen, thank you for your reply. A dose of reality was sorely needed in this unfortunate thread. This list is not the place for such uninformed gossip, complaining, and second guessing. Most of it is from people talking out their @#$%&s. Spreading these negative thoughts does only harm. I have spent alot of time in the region as I am lucky to have family there. Altoona and Johnstown are wonderful places that have seen an incredible growth of railroad and industrial tourism attractions that did not exist more that a few years ago. Much of the development was from Federal programs that provide for capital projects but not for operation. The transition to local operation is not always an easy one, but I am confident that they will work it out and be stronger in the future. If you have these negative thoughts, please express them in the privacy of your bathroom, preferably with the door closed. Doug Nelson. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:48:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Musuem Dr Mulhollen and List, Though people may have said things that you don't like to hear, I'm pretty sure most of us would help the RR Museum in any way we can. I've been roaming the rails of Altoona since the 1970s. When Altoona was just a railroad town. A Mecca for PRR fans. Some on this list were there during the steam era. Some take it personal when something is wrong on PRR town. You're right. I don't know the business end of the RR Museum or the Horseshoe Curve. But if you say we can come to a BoD meeting,I'd be there in a heartbeat. I hope things work out for the best. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 02:45:50 -0400 charles- believe it or not, the smell of fumes was not bad. isnt that a part of railfanning anyway. A day of railfanning would not be the same if you saw a diesel working its way up the mountain, but didnt hear or smell it. Jon S- heard the station inn lacks AC. Sorry, you can have that hotbox. Tunnel Inn is a bargain for the money. Besides, their is nothing like watching head end engines roll by the crest of the Allegheny's 2200 feet above sea level crawling at 3-4mph and slowly pick up speed followed by pushers with whining dynamic braking at 12mph. Not to mention 1 year old, very clean, and in a historic building. Greg Vlassopoulos ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Ring" To: ; Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:29 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. > > > zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > > > If you're looking for a great place to stay in the Altoona area, > > you must check out the Tunnel Inn in Gallitzin Pa. It's a really nice > > bed & breakfast inn. And the view can't be beat! The Inn is right at > > the Gallitzin Portals at the Jackson St. bridge. Cable TV and air > > conditioning in every room. A must if you take the wife and kids. > > The deck out back has an great view of the trains exiting the > > tunnels. I was told if you stand on the deck long enough, you may catch > > PRR's MAIL-9 with a T-1 with two K4s helpers on the point with 60 > > X29s,R50s, and a P70 rider coach. Maybe. > > > > Dave > > if only,,, > > A practical matter: how was it possible to run steamers in any but the > shortest of tunnels? The smoke must have been enough to asphyixiate crew > members? > > today's diesel fumes can't be real healthy either.. > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 05:48:24 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] FD-2 Queen Mary flat Sam and list, I don't know where Railworks got their date from. My Builders Photo listing has a built date of 4-52 and photo date of 5-52. I have approximately 30 photos of it under construction. It is very interesting how the depressed center body was fabricated. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "dfc PRR 7002" Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Musuem Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 06:03:29 -0400 Congratulations and good luck. As somewhat of a local, I live 70 miles away, I bring as many friends and visitors as I can to Altoona & the Curve. Most are not railfans and are impressed with this central Pennsylvania town and her museums. I have even took my high school band to march in the Miss Pennsylvania Pageant parade years ago and you should have seen the looks of joy when the people on the sidewalks saw my PRR belt buckle. I was lucky enough to ride behind the K-4 when she was first restored and look forward to many years of enjoyment. With retirement only a few years away, I look forward to some volunteer work there in addition to my duties at the Pennsylvanai Trolley Museum. Mr. Mulhollen is right, be part of the solution in saving our museums, do not sit and be an armchair quarterback. DF Cramer Instructor/Supervisor/Author--Pennysylvania Trolley Museum >From: andy mulhollen >To: prr talk >Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Musuem >Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:21:35 -0700 (PDT) > >Dr Andy Mulhollen >Secretary >Executive Committee >Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup >http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 07:09:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Musuem From: Jerry Britton On 6/11/02 11:21 PM, andy mulhollen at (prrdoc@yahoo.com) wrote: While I am pleased that someone directly involved in the museum responded... > Dr Andy Mulhollen > Secretary > Executive Committee > Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum I was taken aback by the unprofessionalism, poor grammar, and tone of his response. > But the thing I find most interesting > is the I have Never seen any of you guys who seem to > have all the answers at a single Board meeting. I don't recall being invited! When are they? Since they apparently are open to the public, please provide dates via the PRR-talk list. Since you've brought the openness of these meetings to light, please allow this list to be your FREE carrier of news to over 600 PRR fans. See, we are trying to help! > I have seen you trackside > snapping photos of the E8's as they rumbled through > the Brickyard and Past Alto . But did you guys but a > railfest ticket or ride the train ? Yes, every year for four years now. So please turn your "tone" off! I also visit with my son and daughter in the spring as well, so we actually visit twice a year. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:13:32 -0400 Boy, has the heat ever gotten to him! Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 7:53 PM Subject: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. > > If you're looking for a great place to stay in the Altoona area, > you must check out the Tunnel Inn in Gallitzin Pa. It's a really nice > bed & breakfast inn. And the view can't be beat! The Inn is right at > the Gallitzin Portals at the Jackson St. bridge. Cable TV and air > conditioning in every room. A must if you take the wife and kids. > The deck out back has an great view of the trains exiting the > tunnels. I was told if you stand on the deck long enough, you may catch > PRR's MAIL-9 with a T-1 with two K4s helpers on the point with 60 > X29s,R50s, and a P70 rider coach. Maybe. > > Dave > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:16:12 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C211E9.6A3F9840 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, the Station Inn catches all the trains, not just two tracks of = three and has its own bar. I forget whether it was air conditioned - = I've only been there in cooler weather. On the other hand, the view = from the Tunnel Inn can't be beat . . . at least not locally! Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JONS6755@aol.com=20 To: zootowerprr@webtv.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 9:14 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. In a message dated 6/11/02 5:02:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, = zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: If you're looking for a great place to stay in the Altoona = area, you must check out the Tunnel Inn in Gallitzin Pa. It's a really = nice bed & breakfast inn. And the view can't be beat! The Inn is right = at the Gallitzin Portals at the Jackson St. bridge. Cable TV and air conditioning in every room. A must if you take the wife and kids. The deck out back has an great view of the trains exiting the tunnels. I was told if you stand on the deck long enough, you may = catch PRR's MAIL-9 with a T-1 with two K4s helpers on the point with 60 X29s,R50s, and a P70 rider coach. Maybe. Dave Dave, If you catch the Mail-9 you haven't been standing on the deck long = enough... you've been standing at the bar to long ! ! :-) For my money, and IMHO, I'll take The Station Inn anyday over the = Tunnel Inn! ! ! Jon S. ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C211E9.6A3F9840 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, the Station Inn catches all the trains, = not just two=20 tracks of three and has its own bar.  I forget whether it was air=20 conditioned - I've only been there in cooler weather.  On the other = hand,=20 the view from the Tunnel Inn can't be beat . . . at least not=20 locally!
 
Bill Bigler
Modeling PRR Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport WWII
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 JONS6755@aol.com=20
To: zootowerprr@webtv.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 = 9:14=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel=20 Inn/Gallitzin Pa.

In a message dated 6/11/02 = 5:02:24 PM=20 Pacific Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net=20 writes:





     If you're looking = for a=20 great place to stay in the Altoona area,
you must check out the = Tunnel=20 Inn in Gallitzin Pa. It's a really nice
bed & breakfast inn. = And the=20 view can't be beat!  The Inn is right at
the Gallitzin = Portals at=20 the Jackson St. bridge. Cable TV and air
conditioning in every = room. A=20 must if you take the wife and = kids.
      The=20 deck out back has an great view of the trains exiting = the
tunnels. I was=20 told if you stand on the deck long enough, you may catch
PRR's = MAIL-9=20 with a T-1 with two K4s helpers on the point with 60
X29s,R50s, = and a P70=20 rider coach. Maybe.

Dave


Dave,
If = you catch=20 the Mail-9 you haven't  been standing on the deck long enough... = you've=20 been standing at the bar to long ! ! :-)
For my money, and IMHO, = I'll take=20 The Station Inn anyday over the Tunnel Inn! ! !

Jon S.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01C211E9.6A3F9840-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:20:26 -0400 I think the Altoona Museum is not only one too far but maybe one too many (in addition to not being near an interstate). There's Steamtown, Strasburg, RR Museum of PA, EBT, and a host of others in that part of the country. If downsizing is the answer, and it might be, let's be really careful we don't sacrifice the superb qualities of the Altoona museum. Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:19 PM Subject: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? > As in "Operation Market Garden" isn't the simple answer that ALTOONA is just > one museum to far - not only that - they divided their forces and tryed to > operate 2 or 3 sites when, perhaps they should have concentrated their > activities at The Curve" and not gotten involved with all the rotting > equipment downtown? > > I haven't been there in some time. but DOWNSIZING is a word that comes to > mind. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] How much water did they need in the age of steam? Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:24:51 -0400 Seems to me most steam engines needed to take water about once per division, which was about 100 miles during the heyday of steam. ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: "sjlash" ; Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:09 PM Subject: [PRR] How much water did they need in the age of steam? > --- sjlash wrote: > > Bob, It's no wonder the PRR was interested in these > > water companies. From > > what I've read and heard reference to, the older > > steam locos ate twice as > > much water as coal,oil or wood. > > Having more time than things to do in it, I dug out > some sources. > > "Locomotive Boilers" > International Textbook Company, Scranton > copyright 1898, 1899, 1900 > > pg 43 says "In locomotive boilers, 1 pound of coal > evaporates 6 to 9 pounds of water, according to the > quality of coal, etc." > > Since 1 gallon of water weighs about 8 pounds ("A > pint's a pound the world around"), 1 lb coal will > evaporate .75 to 1.25 gal. water. > > "The Steam Locomotive in America" > Alfred W. Bruce > copyright 1952 > > pg 141 mentions a test of a "large 484 type" and says > 110,000 lb of water were evaporated by 18,000 lb of > coal. That's 6.11 lb water/lb coal. > > pg 143 talks about the Cole Ratios used in locomotive > design and says they assume 6.75 lb water/lb coal. > > Online at > http://www.cwrr.com/Lounge/Reference/baldwin/fig18.gif > there is a chart showing coal vs. water consumption > for tests of the Baldwin 60000 (the one in the > Franklin Institute) at the Altoona test plant. > Grabbing a couple pairs of numbers from there: > 70000 lb water/11000 lb coal = 6.36 water/coal > 40000 lb water/5000 lb coal = 8 water/coal > > So it appears that if you took off for a trip in your > steam locomotive, intending to burn 10 tons of coal, > you'd better figure on having 15000 to 20000 gallons > of water on hand. > > Another view: A typical 1917 hopper car held 50 tons > of coal. If burning all that in a steam locomotive, be > prepared to supply 75000 to 100000 gallons of water. > > Westmoreland County folk may be interested in the > following from the Baldwin 60000 report: > > "All of the tests were made with run-of-mine > bituminous coal from the Keystone Coal and Coke > Company's Crows Nest Mine at Hempfield, Westmoreland > County, Pennsylvania. This coal is used at the test > plant as standard freight locomotive coal." > > > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:35:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Hello William, I stayed at the Station Inn during the summer months. It wasn't that bad. We had a room in east corner of the Inn. Windows on both sides of the room. The bar could be trouble for me. Not only will I see MAIL-9, I may see a M1 pulling a string of new GG1s east to Harrisburg. :-) Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Musuem Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:36:30 -0400 Wow! Thank you Andy! Nothing like publishing the truth to stop rumors in their tracks. I think communication is a major issue (and not easy to solve) in all these matters involving museums, historical preservation, and tourism. Please let us know how we can help, in addition to the obvious ("Send money; Come visit and spend money.") Respectfully (and appreciatively), Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "andy mulhollen" To: "prr talk" Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:21 PM Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Musuem > Greetings to the List, > I usually do not make a habit of responding to > all the criticizm that I hear lobbed at out Museum but > tonight I am going to make an exception. > I want to set the record straight on several > issues and address some that have been brought up. > First of all Mr Hopson and his travelling partner > were correct in several of their observations. Yes 5 > people lost their jobs at the museum in an effort to > cut back on expenses to keep the doors open. We > considered these people part of the museum family and > it hurt us to see them go but I will not appologize > for this action as it had to be done. Secondly the > gift shops at the Master Mechanics building and the > Curve are horribly understocked. Well if you have > read the paper we owe alot of money to our vendors who > supply us with merchandise. They have all been very > patient and helpful to us as we have promised to pay > all back bills and some are allowing us to order more > things in small quantities. We have restructured our > finances so that gift shop money will only go to pay > gift shop bills at this time. In the future "profits" > will go into the big pot. We know that looks bad but > we are working on it. > Mr Hopson quipped that the "Quarter Roundhouse > projet is probably on hold. Nothing is farther from > the truth and such off the cuff uninformed statements > do nothing but harm us. The Quarter Roundhouse has > its own funding pool seperate from the general > operating fund. We have the money in hand to complete > the first phase of the Project which is not much more > than you see in the yard now. Basically just a roof > and Track. We have been Granted the money to complete > Phase 2 which will complete the first bay and put in > the 100 foot turntable. We have located one. This > money is coming throught the Federal TEA-21 program > and this money will not be in hand for awhile. We are > doing everything we can to expedite that process and > we are getting great support from PenDot whom the > money comes to us through on this matter. In case you > guys didnt know it , You cant cash those great big > checks that they present to you when they announce the > grants. > The K4 project is alive and well. It too has its > own funding pool. I have made several trips to > Steamtown keeping up with the project. I have been > involved in getting tools and supplies donated to the > project and have worked closely with a local tool > supplier to give us a big discount on anything we > need. The project has a great supervisor in Barry > Claar, he is a very knowledgeble man a suberb > machinist and has a working knowledge of Steam. Mr > Bill Fredrickson is our lead mechanic and is working > full time on the project. I dont think we could get a > better guy to do this for us. He and Barry have > really turned this project around and got it rolling > again. I dont have a finish date yet. There have > been issues that have came up that have set us back > several times. We have identified all the problems > and are correcting them and moving forward. Be > patient , this is going to be done correctly so we > dont have to go back and do things over again. She > will be worth the wait. > Of course the K4 will run in excursion service. > We have several options and are exploring them all. > It probably wont run in just one place. > The Trees at the Curve. Well they will be cut > shortly. You people have no idea how many times we > were ready to go to bid on this project and had to > start back at square one because of Hoops that we had > to jump through. The good old Indiana Bat even made > an appearance and let to putting it on hold for a > time. I spoke personally to the gentleman who owns the > company that will be doing the work and it will start > soon. waiting on one last permit or clearance from > someone. And by the way we are giving him the wood > and there is not that much millable lumber there . It > is not that much of a no brainer Mr Britton > Thomas the Tank Engine has been suggested as a > savior. Well guess what. He is unavailable for > about 2 years. All booked up . > We have been told Altoona is the wrong place. > Well guess what. It all happened in Altoona!!!!! The > Curve is near .... you guessed it Altoona. We cant > move that stuff and we cant move the museum. Enough > said on that. But dont think that has not been brought > to our attention before > I hear alot of comments some helpful and informed > and some not. But the thing I find most interesting > is the I have Never seen any of you guys who seem to > have all the answers at a single Board meeting. I > have only missed one in the 5 years I have been > involved with the museum. I have seen you trackside > snapping photos of the E8's as they rumbled through > the Brickyard and Past Alto . But did you guys but a > railfest ticket or ride the train ? Some did and alot > did not. I really dont appreciate comments like. " > they obviously didn't know what they were doing" Well > we may not have made every decision perfectly but We > were here and involved in something and giving of our > time and effort and money to make something wonderful > happen. I dont reply to this list much because I am > busy at night communicating with my comrads who are > trying like hell to save this place. We are not > sitting back pontificating on what other people should > be doing , we are figuring out what we can do and then > we are doing it. > I have gone on long enough. I want all of you to > know that I firmly believe that the majority of people > want to see us succeed and that people are very > curious about things like the curve and the K4 and > mostly just want to know what is going on. What we > need is allof you to help us out and support us. If > you are going to slam us for what we are doing but > dont want to help in any way then keep your comments > to yourselves. Come to the place. Dave Hopson did and > he brought a friend , I thank him with all sincerity. > More of you need to come and buy a ticket and bring a > friend. We have been getting tremendous support from > our local business leaders and community and from our > elected officials. Where we lack support the most is > among the railfan community. Maybe we dont cater to > you enough. We are working on that. > Thank you for you time and indulgence in reading > this. > Dr Andy Mulhollen > Secretary > Executive Committee > Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:45:18 -0400 At the risk of "foaming at the mouth" this morning in response to an amazing number of posts in the last few days, it always seemed to me that the blowers should be on the uphill end of tunnels to blow the smoke out toward the rear of the train, instead of blowing it along in the same direction. Sort of like counterflow heat exchange - put the effort where it's needed most. Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Charles Ring" ; Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 12:08 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. > > Charles, > > There were "blowers" on the East Portals of the Gallitzin Tunnels. > They blew the smoke out in front of the trains. Most times, the steam > locomotives leading the trains would cut the throttles back to cut the > amount of smoke. The rear end helpers push then train through until the > lead engines clear the west portals then pick up the pace. > The rear end locomotives do the same when they reach the east > portals and by the time most of the train is over the grade. > Hope this helps. > > Dave > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:55:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. From: Jerry Britton On 6/12/02 8:45 AM, William Bigler (wbigler@stny.rr.com) wrote: > At the risk of "foaming at the mouth" this morning in response to an amazing > number of posts in the last few days, it always seemed to me that the > blowers should be on the uphill end of tunnels to blow the smoke out toward > the rear of the train, instead of blowing it along in the same direction. > Sort of like counterflow heat exchange - put the effort where it's needed > most. > While there may be a certain amount of logic to that... Consider when you stand close to the RoW and a freight runs by. It "pushes" a wall of air ahead of it and the ensuing "wave" of air follows the direction of the train. Granted a train in Tunnel Hill is not going fast, but you are talking about pushing the air against the direction of its normal flow. Also, blowing the smoke back through the tunnel would likely have some effect on passenger cars as they are not totally sealed. My two cent hypothesis! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:53:29 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C211EE.9F9C3B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable charles- furthermore- the blowers would push smoke and air through the tunnels at = a rate of 11mph so the locomotives could not exceed 11mph. Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr. Audio-Visual Solutions, Inc. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: To: "Charles Ring" ; Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 12:08 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. >=20 > Charles, >=20 > There were "blowers" on the East Portals of the Gallitzin = Tunnels. > They blew the smoke out in front of the trains. Most times, the steam > locomotives leading the trains would cut the throttles back to cut the > amount of smoke. The rear end helpers push then train through until = the > lead engines clear the west portals then pick up the pace. > The rear end locomotives do the same when they reach the east > portals and by the time most of the train is over the grade. > Hope this helps. >=20 > Dave >=20 >=20 > = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >=20 >=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C211EE.9F9C3B60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
charles-
 
furthermore- the blowers would push smoke and air = through the=20 tunnels at a rate of 11mph so the locomotives could not exceed=20 11mph.
 
Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr.
Audio-Visual Solutions,=20 Inc.
 
----- Original Message -----
To: "Charles Ring" <charlesr@infonline.net>; = <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 12:08 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin=20 Pa.

>
> =    =20 Charles,
>
>       There were = "blowers" on=20 the East Portals of the Gallitzin Tunnels.
> They blew the smoke = out in=20 front of the trains. Most times, the steam
> locomotives leading = the=20 trains would cut the throttles back to cut the
> amount of smoke. = The rear=20 end helpers push then train through until the
> lead engines clear = the=20 west portals then pick up the pace.
> =       The=20 rear end locomotives do the same when they reach the east
> = portals and by=20 the time most of the train is over the grade.
> Hope this = helps.
>=20
>  Dave
>
>
>=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------->=20 For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C211EE.9F9C3B60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:58:07 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car --part1_de.286123a7.2a389f5f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/11/02 6:59:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, svastano@hotmail.com writes: > Group, Couple of questions concerning this car. When was it put into > service? How many were built? I noticed in Model Railroad Craftsman > yesterday that Railworks is making an HO version. I was wondering if it > would be appropriate for the late steam diesel era? > > Thanks in advance > To Sam and others, The PRR FD2 "Queen Mary" depressed center flat car was built in April 1952. Only one car was built in this class and it was 470245. Andy Hart, PRRT&HS 92 --part1_de.286123a7.2a389f5f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/11/02 6:59:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, svastano@hotmail.com writes:


Group, Couple of questions concerning this car.  When was it put into
service? How many were built?  I noticed in Model Railroad Craftsman
yesterday that Railworks is making an HO version. I was wondering if it
would be appropriate for the late steam diesel era?

Thanks in advance


To Sam and others,

The PRR FD2 "Queen Mary" depressed center flat car was built in April 1952.  Only one car was built in this class and it was 470245.

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS 92
 --part1_de.286123a7.2a389f5f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:08:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. --part1_f5.1d2c78bf.2a38a1e3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/12/02 5:58:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: > > > > Hello William, > > I stayed at the Station Inn during the summer months. It wasn't > that bad. We had a room in east corner of the Inn. Windows on both sides > of the room. > The bar could be trouble for me. Not only will I see MAIL-9, I may > see a M1 pulling a string of new GG1s east to Harrisburg. :-) > > Dave > I too have stayed at The Station Inn during summer months and the lack of AC was really not a problem. Now this means a lot as I am a rather large fellow and, as I like to say, I even sweat in a snowstorm ! Tom Davis, the Innkeep is a top nocth fellow. Ypu arrive at the Inn with him being the owner... and you leave with him being your new best friend ! ! ! BTW, Dave, if we're going to see M1s... I'm already packing ! ! ! ;-) Jon S --part1_f5.1d2c78bf.2a38a1e3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/12/02 5:58:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes:





  Hello William,

      I stayed at the Station Inn during the summer months. It wasn't
that bad. We had a room in east corner of the Inn. Windows on both sides
of the room.
     The bar could be trouble for me. Not only will I see MAIL-9, I may
see a M1 pulling a string of new GG1s east to Harrisburg. :-)

    Dave


I too have stayed at The Station Inn during summer months and the lack of AC was really not a problem. Now this means a lot as I am a rather large fellow and, as I like to say, I even sweat in a snowstorm !  Tom Davis, the Innkeep is a top nocth fellow. Ypu arrive at the Inn with him being the owner... and you leave with him being your new best friend ! ! !
BTW, Dave, if we're going to see M1s... I'm already packing ! ! !  ;-)

Jon S --part1_f5.1d2c78bf.2a38a1e3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:08:14 -0400 When the blowers were placed in use, steam was in use. The smoke stack is in front of the cab, unless PRR planned to get a hold of some SP Cab Forwards. Greg V ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 8:45 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. > At the risk of "foaming at the mouth" this morning in response to an amazing > number of posts in the last few days, it always seemed to me that the > blowers should be on the uphill end of tunnels to blow the smoke out toward > the rear of the train, instead of blowing it along in the same direction. > Sort of like counterflow heat exchange - put the effort where it's needed > most. > > Bill Bigler > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Charles Ring" ; > Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 12:08 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. > > > > > > Charles, > > > > There were "blowers" on the East Portals of the Gallitzin Tunnels. > > They blew the smoke out in front of the trains. Most times, the steam > > locomotives leading the trains would cut the throttles back to cut the > > amount of smoke. The rear end helpers push then train through until the > > lead engines clear the west portals then pick up the pace. > > The rear end locomotives do the same when they reach the east > > portals and by the time most of the train is over the grade. > > Hope this helps. > > > > Dave > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:10:23 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C211F0.FBC1CAC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe the Queen Mary was to carry a press machine for a Pittsburg = area factory that was delivered in 5 parts. Mesta Press Load. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com=20 To: svastano@hotmail.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 8:58 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car In a message dated 6/11/02 6:59:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, = svastano@hotmail.com writes: Group, Couple of questions concerning this car. When was it put = into=20 service? How many were built? I noticed in Model Railroad Craftsman = yesterday that Railworks is making an HO version. I was wondering if = it=20 would be appropriate for the late steam diesel era? Thanks in advance To Sam and others, The PRR FD2 "Queen Mary" depressed center flat car was built in April = 1952. Only one car was built in this class and it was 470245. Andy Hart, PRRT&HS 92 ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C211F0.FBC1CAC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I believe the Queen Mary was to carry a press = machine for a=20 Pittsburg area factory that was delivered in 5 parts.  Mesta Press=20 Load.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 AHARTPRR137@aol.com
To: svastano@hotmail.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 = 8:58=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen = Mary"=20 Flat Car

In a = message dated=20 6/11/02 6:59:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, svastano@hotmail.com=20 writes:


Group, Couple of questions concerning this car.  = When was=20 it put into
service? How many were built?  I noticed in = Model=20 Railroad Craftsman
yesterday that Railworks is making an HO = version. I=20 was wondering if it
would be appropriate for the late steam = diesel=20 era?

Thanks in advance


To Sam and=20 others,

The PRR FD2 "Queen Mary" depressed center flat car was = built in=20 April 1952.  Only one car was built in this class and it was=20 470245.

Andy Hart, PRRT&HS=20 92
 ------=_NextPart_000_0068_01C211F0.FBC1CAC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:13:18 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C211F1.64291640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Tunnel Inn does lack a bar. BYOB. I didn't want to venture out to = a local Gallitzin Bar being in the middle of the Allegheny Mountains and = I am a city boy from Philadelphia. I didn;t fit in. I don't drive = around with a shotgun in my pick-ups rear window. Greg V ----- Original Message -----=20 From: William Bigler=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 8:16 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Well, the Station Inn catches all the trains, not just two tracks of = three and has its own bar. I forget whether it was air conditioned - = I've only been there in cooler weather. On the other hand, the view = from the Tunnel Inn can't be beat . . . at least not locally! Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JONS6755@aol.com=20 To: zootowerprr@webtv.net ; prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 9:14 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. In a message dated 6/11/02 5:02:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, = zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: If you're looking for a great place to stay in the Altoona = area, you must check out the Tunnel Inn in Gallitzin Pa. It's a really = nice bed & breakfast inn. And the view can't be beat! The Inn is right = at the Gallitzin Portals at the Jackson St. bridge. Cable TV and air conditioning in every room. A must if you take the wife and kids. The deck out back has an great view of the trains exiting = the tunnels. I was told if you stand on the deck long enough, you may = catch PRR's MAIL-9 with a T-1 with two K4s helpers on the point with 60 X29s,R50s, and a P70 rider coach. Maybe. Dave Dave, If you catch the Mail-9 you haven't been standing on the deck long = enough... you've been standing at the bar to long ! ! :-) For my money, and IMHO, I'll take The Station Inn anyday over the = Tunnel Inn! ! ! Jon S.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C211F1.64291640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The Tunnel Inn does lack a bar.  BYOB.  I = didn't=20 want to venture out to a local Gallitzin Bar being in the middle of the=20 Allegheny Mountains and I am a city boy from Philadelphia.  I = didn;t fit=20 in.  I don't drive around with a shotgun in my pick-ups rear=20 window.
 
Greg V
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 William=20 Bigler
Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 = 8:16=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel=20 Inn/Gallitzin Pa.

Well, the Station Inn catches all the trains, = not just=20 two tracks of three and has its own bar.  I forget whether it was = air=20 conditioned - I've only been there in cooler weather.  On the = other hand,=20 the view from the Tunnel Inn can't be beat . . . at least not=20 locally!
 
Bill Bigler
Modeling PRR Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport WWII
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 JONS6755@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 = 9:14=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel = Inn/Gallitzin Pa.

In a message = dated 6/11/02=20 5:02:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net=20 writes:





     If you're looking = for a=20 great place to stay in the Altoona area,
you must check out the = Tunnel=20 Inn in Gallitzin Pa. It's a really nice
bed & breakfast = inn. And=20 the view can't be beat!  The Inn is right at
the Gallitzin = Portals=20 at the Jackson St. bridge. Cable TV and air
conditioning in = every room.=20 A must if you take the wife and = kids.
     =20 The deck out back has an great view of the trains exiting = the
tunnels.=20 I was told if you stand on the deck long enough, you may = catch
PRR's=20 MAIL-9 with a T-1 with two K4s helpers on the point with = 60
X29s,R50s,=20 and a P70 rider coach.=20 Maybe.

Dave


Dave,
If you catch the = Mail-9=20 you haven't  been standing on the deck long enough... you've = been=20 standing at the bar to long ! ! :-)
For my money, and IMHO, I'll = take The=20 Station Inn anyday over the Tunnel Inn! ! !

Jon S.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0076_01C211F1.64291640-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:42:59 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? As a person that has not visited the museum as of yet, I cannot comment on the condition or lack of merchandise in the gift shop but I had visited the museum in 1991. It was small at the time but worth seeing. My biggest disappointment is the loss of the steps to Horseshoe Curve. I've only visited the Curve twice in my life but the visits were memorable. Once was before the 1361 was removed from the curve. It broke my heart to see a representative of the Glory Years of the PRR in such a state of disrepair. The engine was filthy, rusty, without a number plate, bell, or whistle. The second time was a few years later after the dismal replaced the K4. Both times I was honored to walk the slabs of stone that made up the "stairway to heavan". From info provided by other friends that have visited the Curve, the stairs are no longer accesable or have been removed. I don't konw if the info is correct but I was also told that there is now a fee to use the only method of access to the Curve, the tram. I readily admit that I am not a financial wizard or even remotely knowledgable about such things but why force people to pay for access to a great historical landmark. It's almost like charging a fee to visit the Gettysburg battlefields. One of my vacation trips for this year was to return to visit the Curve and the Museum. But if I cannot walk to the curve, I probably will only drive below the curve on the road and not ride the tram. Something has been lost to provide an unnecessary expense to people that simply do not want it. Whoever decided to remove the stone horseshoe at the curve should be pummeled with the stones. They represented a symbolic tribute to one of the world's engineering marvels. If they were in the way of the "upgrade", they should have been relocated, not thrown in the trash.Every photo and postcard of the PRR on the Curve showed that horseshoe. Now it's gone. I sincerely hope that the Museum will overcome this problem before we lose something that can never be replaced. BTW, I had the honor of speaking to Don Ball shortly before he passed away about the Steamtown relocation. He had dropped out of the committee for the project when the "politicians" that had no idea about how a railroad attraction should be built started their usual antics. The project lost a great resource for information and history because the politicians wanted to maintain their fifedoms. There was a wealth of American Steam equipment that could have been placed there but instead we now own a great deal of Canadian steam power with very little USA representation. He spoke of ex N&W power as well as a possibility of some Southern equipment. Grey and maroon have never been my favorite colors. Regards, Nick Kulp Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? From: "William Bigler" Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:20:26 -0400 I think the Altoona Museum is not only one too far but maybe one too many (in addition to not being near an interstate). There's Steamtown, Strasburg, RR Museum of PA, EBT, and a host of others in that part of the country. If downsizing is the answer, and it might be, let's be really careful we don't sacrifice the superb qualities of the Altoona museum. Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:43:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? From: Jerry Britton On 6/12/02 9:42 AM, Nick Kulp (caseyj@igateway.com) wrote: > My biggest disappointment is the loss of the steps to Horseshoe Curve. I've > only visited the Curve twice in my life but the visits were memorable. Once > was before the 1361 was removed from the curve. It broke my heart to see a > representative > of the Glory Years of the PRR in such a state of disrepair. The engine was > filthy, > rusty, without a number plate, bell, or whistle. The second time was a few > years > later after the dismal replaced the K4. Both times I was honored to walk the > slabs of stone that made up the "stairway to heavan". From info provided by > other friends that have visited the Curve, the stairs are no longer accesable > or have been removed. I don't konw if the info is correct but I was also told > that there is now a fee to use the only method of access to the Curve, the > tram. > I readily admit that I am not a financial wizard or even remotely knowledgable > about such things but why force people to pay for access to a great historical > landmark. It's almost like charging a fee to visit the Gettysburg > battlefields. > One of my vacation trips for this year was to return to visit the Curve and > the Museum. But if I cannot walk to the curve, I probably will only drive > below > the curve on the road and not ride the tram. Something has been lost to > provide > an unnecessary expense to people that simply do not want it. > The steps were replaced with concrete steps (105 if I recall; my kids counted at one point). As concrete goes, they are attractive as they meander up the grade. The tram is the alternative and I do not think this was a waste -- even aside from weather and accessibility concerns. My family frequently picnics at the curve. Ever try to carry coolers full of stuff up 10 stories? The fee is reasonable if there is a return on investment. The grounds have always appeared well-kept when I have been there. I cannot attest to the vandalism of the Geep, as I have not been there since last fall. The trees do, however, have to go. Get 'em down!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] How much water did they need in the age of steam? Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:52:11 -0400 List, I believe it was more often than that for water. The AN railroad, which I worked for for 18 years, is 96 miles long and had water towers 20-30 miles apart. It used Pacifics and Ten-Wheelers as road power with 8,000-10000 gal. tenders. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Bigler" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 8:24 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] How much water did they need in the age of steam? > Seems to me most steam engines needed to take water about once per division, > which was about 100 miles during the heyday of steam. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "robert netzlof" > To: "sjlash" ; > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 11:09 PM > Subject: [PRR] How much water did they need in the age of steam? > > > > --- sjlash wrote: > > > Bob, It's no wonder the PRR was interested in these > > > water companies. From > > > what I've read and heard reference to, the older > > > steam locos ate twice as > > > much water as coal,oil or wood. > > > > Having more time than things to do in it, I dug out > > some sources. > > > > "Locomotive Boilers" > > International Textbook Company, Scranton > > copyright 1898, 1899, 1900 > > > > pg 43 says "In locomotive boilers, 1 pound of coal > > evaporates 6 to 9 pounds of water, according to the > > quality of coal, etc." > > > > Since 1 gallon of water weighs about 8 pounds ("A > > pint's a pound the world around"), 1 lb coal will > > evaporate .75 to 1.25 gal. water. > > > > "The Steam Locomotive in America" > > Alfred W. Bruce > > copyright 1952 > > > > pg 141 mentions a test of a "large 484 type" and says > > 110,000 lb of water were evaporated by 18,000 lb of > > coal. That's 6.11 lb water/lb coal. > > > > pg 143 talks about the Cole Ratios used in locomotive > > design and says they assume 6.75 lb water/lb coal. > > > > Online at > > http://www.cwrr.com/Lounge/Reference/baldwin/fig18.gif > > there is a chart showing coal vs. water consumption > > for tests of the Baldwin 60000 (the one in the > > Franklin Institute) at the Altoona test plant. > > Grabbing a couple pairs of numbers from there: > > 70000 lb water/11000 lb coal = 6.36 water/coal > > 40000 lb water/5000 lb coal = 8 water/coal > > > > So it appears that if you took off for a trip in your > > steam locomotive, intending to burn 10 tons of coal, > > you'd better figure on having 15000 to 20000 gallons > > of water on hand. > > > > Another view: A typical 1917 hopper car held 50 tons > > of coal. If burning all that in a steam locomotive, be > > prepared to supply 75000 to 100000 gallons of water. > > > > Westmoreland County folk may be interested in the > > following from the Baldwin 60000 report: > > > > "All of the tests were made with run-of-mine > > bituminous coal from the Keystone Coal and Coke > > Company's Crows Nest Mine at Hempfield, Westmoreland > > County, Pennsylvania. This coal is used at the test > > plant as standard freight locomotive coal." > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:55:36 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 From: Jerry Britton Another thought on the subject... If the MS60 was once a real car, later refurbished to B60b, etc., and in later years an MS60 referred to 60' of mail storage space that could be met via a B60/B60b, X42, or a pair of X29's, might a BM70m also foot the bill? A BM70m has 60' of mail space. However, it also has windows, thus providing a certain lack of security. The 1954 New York Division Makeup of Trains often requires a "MS60, B60, or R50", so the R50's must have been used for dry storage from time to time. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:01:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] How much water did they need in the age of steam? From: Jerry Britton On 6/12/02 9:52 AM, Gregg Mahlkov (mahlkov@gtcom.net) wrote: > I believe it was more often than that for water. The AN railroad, which I > worked for for 18 years, is 96 miles long and had water towers 20-30 miles > apart. It used Pacifics and Ten-Wheelers as road power with 8,000-10000 > gal. tenders. > Obviously the terrain had something to do with it, but I agree, that PRR divisions were too large to stop once per division. Consider the Middle Division. Harrisburg is barely outside the division, in the Philadelphia Division. A passenger train heading west would water at the Hawestone track pans (short of Lewistown) and again at the ___ (Mapleton ?) track pans long before Altoona. And keep in mind that, although a slight grade, the Middle Division was relatively level. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:07:11 -0400 Greg & Group, Mesta Machine was in my home town that's why I am so interested in this car. I also saw a picture in Pennsy Power 3 that had something from some electric company. Looked like a huge generator. Does anybody know where the car was made? Thanks Sam >From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." >To: , , >Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car >Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:10:23 -0400 > >I believe the Queen Mary was to carry a press machine for a Pittsburg area >factory that was delivered in 5 parts. Mesta Press Load. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com > To: svastano@hotmail.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 8:58 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car > > > In a message dated 6/11/02 6:59:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >svastano@hotmail.com writes: > > > > Group, Couple of questions concerning this car. When was it put into > service? How many were built? I noticed in Model Railroad Craftsman > yesterday that Railworks is making an HO version. I was wondering if >it > would be appropriate for the late steam diesel era? > > Thanks in advance > > > > To Sam and others, > > The PRR FD2 "Queen Mary" depressed center flat car was built in April >1952. Only one car was built in this class and it was 470245. > > Andy Hart, PRRT&HS 92 > Sam Vastano McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. PH 724-368-8040 X243 Fax 724-368-9677 _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:16:13 -0400 Probably from Westinghouse. When Alco models made the "Queen Mary" it came with one set of trucks and 2 bodies, a depressed center and a well hole did the PRR switch the bodies or have 2 complete cars? Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Sam Vastano [mailto:svastano@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 10:07 AM To: gregv@NetReach.Net; AHARTPRR137@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car Greg & Group, Mesta Machine was in my home town that's why I am so interested in this car. I also saw a picture in Pennsy Power 3 that had something from some electric company. Looked like a huge generator. Does anybody know where the car was made? Thanks Sam >From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." >To: , , >Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car >Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:10:23 -0400 > >I believe the Queen Mary was to carry a press machine for a Pittsburg area >factory that was delivered in 5 parts. Mesta Press Load. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com > To: svastano@hotmail.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 8:58 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car > > > In a message dated 6/11/02 6:59:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >svastano@hotmail.com writes: > > > > Group, Couple of questions concerning this car. When was it put into > service? How many were built? I noticed in Model Railroad Craftsman > yesterday that Railworks is making an HO version. I was wondering if >it > would be appropriate for the late steam diesel era? > > Thanks in advance > > > > To Sam and others, > > The PRR FD2 "Queen Mary" depressed center flat car was built in April >1952. Only one car was built in this class and it was 470245. > > Andy Hart, PRRT&HS 92 > Sam Vastano McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. PH 724-368-8040 X243 Fax 724-368-9677 _________________________________________________________________ Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: howdy@qnet.com Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:21:50 GMT Sam and all, I just found this site that may help. Howdy http://southern.railfan.net/flat/cars/prr/245/prr470245.html > Greg & Group, > > Mesta Machine was in my home town that's why I am so interested in this car. > I also saw a picture in Pennsy Power 3 that had something from some electric > company. Looked like a huge generator. Does anybody know where the car was > made? > > Thanks > > Sam > > > >From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." > >To: , , > >Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car > >Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:10:23 -0400 > > > >I believe the Queen Mary was to carry a press machine for a Pittsburg area > >factory that was delivered in 5 parts. Mesta Press Load. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com > > To: svastano@hotmail.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 8:58 AM > > Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car > > > > > > In a message dated 6/11/02 6:59:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > >svastano@hotmail.com writes: > > > > > > > > Group, Couple of questions concerning this car. When was it put into > > service? How many were built? I noticed in Model Railroad Craftsman > > yesterday that Railworks is making an HO version. I was wondering if > >it > > would be appropriate for the late steam diesel era? > > > > Thanks in advance > > > > > > > > To Sam and others, > > > > The PRR FD2 "Queen Mary" depressed center flat car was built in April > >1952. Only one car was built in this class and it was 470245. > > > > Andy Hart, PRRT&HS 92 > > > > > > > Sam Vastano > McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. > PH 724-368-8040 X243 > Fax 724-368-9677 > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Charles Ring Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:23:30 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? Jerry Britton wrote: > > The steps were replaced with concrete steps (105 if I recall; my kids > counted at one point). As concrete goes, they are attractive as they meander > up the grade. > > The tram is the alternative and I do not think this was a waste -- even > aside from weather and accessibility concerns. My family frequently picnics > at the curve. Ever try to carry coolers full of stuff up 10 stories? > > The fee is reasonable if there is a return on investment. The grounds have > always appeared well-kept when I have been there. I cannot attest to the > vandalism of the Geep, as I have not been there since last fall. > > The trees do, however, have to go. Get 'em down!!! I was there last Friday and used the steps both up and down rather than wait for the "funicular" (a word I had never heard before). the GP-9's main problem that I could see is rust. The trees were the big disappointment. This was my first visit to the Curve (except maybe as a small child) and it took me a while to realize exactly where I was after getting to trackside. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Steam consumption Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:40:47 +0000 Several factors entered into how much water was used. One cubic foot of water equals about 960 cubic feet of steam. How fast you use that steam is the key. If an engine was using full cut off it would consume far more steam then if it was using reduced cut off. Lifting the pops threw steam away. Leaks also wasted steam. As I recall a Q2 could drain its tank in an hour running everything at full capacity. Engineers had tricks to minimize steam usage such as dropping the reverse lever to a near neutral position and reducing the cut off once a train was up to speed. Working upgrade with tonnage is obviously the worst scenario. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Sean121982@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:54:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. --part1_11a.1239f7bd.2a38baa3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/12/02 9:52:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, JONS6755@aol.com writes: > I too have stayed at The Station Inn during summer months and the lack of AC > was really not a problem. Now this means a lot as I am a rather large > fellow and, as I like to say, I even sweat in a snowstorm ! Jon, I agree. I'm also not the skinniest fellow on the planet, and when I stayed at the Station Inn during July of 1998, there was enough of a mountain breeze (as well as the wonderful aroma of a trio of big blue SD40-2s) coming in through the windows for me to be sleeping under the covers very comfortably. You really can't go wrong by staying there. Sean McDonnell --part1_11a.1239f7bd.2a38baa3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/12/02 9:52:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, JONS6755@aol.com writes:


I too have stayed at The Station Inn during summer months and the lack of AC was really not a problem. Now this means a lot as I am a rather large fellow and, as I like to say, I even sweat in a snowstorm !  

Jon,

I agree. I'm also not the skinniest fellow on the planet, and when I stayed at the Station Inn during July of 1998, there was enough of a mountain breeze (as well as the wonderful aroma of a trio of big blue SD40-2s) coming in through the windows for me to be sleeping under the covers very comfortably. You really can't go wrong by staying there.

Sean McDonnell --part1_11a.1239f7bd.2a38baa3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Another MP54 Question From: "mkwb@excite.com" Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:58:10 -0400 (EDT) --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__bc1309f2629121994fcaff297c6747cb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Folks, I just got a Railworks brass MP54 in HO scale. Can anyone tell me why the MP54 (according to the Railworks models) have Hyatt sideframes on one truck and different sideframes on the other truck? What type of truck was the other truck? Mike Bartel ------------------------------------------------ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__bc1309f2629121994fcaff297c6747cb Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Folks,

I just got a Railworks brass MP54 in HO scale. Can anyone tell me why the MP54 (according to the Railworks models) have Hyatt sideframes on one truck and different sideframes on the other truck? What type of truck was the other truck?

Mike Bartel


Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web! --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__bc1309f2629121994fcaff297c6747cb-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:06:31 -0400 From: davep Subject: [Fwd: [PRR] Steam consumption] >Several factors entered into how much water was used. >One cubic foot of water equals about 960 cubic feet of >steam. At some particular pressure... Depends on the boiler pressure... Water plug location is not an absolute index as a peddler freight would need water away from terminals... > Engineers had tricks to minimize steam usage such as > dropping the reverse lever to a near neutral position > and reducing the cut off once a train was up to speed. These 'tricks' were explicitly taught in company courses, text books, etc... best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Another MP54 Question Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:28:20 +0000 I believe that the MP54's only had one powered truck. the other was a trailer. Therefore the Hyatt's are on the powered truck. ( I think) NB > Hi Folks, > > I just got a Railworks brass MP54 in HO scale. Can anyone tell me why the MP54 > (according to the Railworks models) have Hyatt sideframes on one truck and > different sideframes on the other truck? What type of truck was the other > truck? > > Mike Bartel > > > > > ------------------------------------------------ > Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com > The most personalized portal on the Web! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:29:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] MS60 In a message dated 6/12/02 9:02:19 AM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << might a BM70m also foot the bill? A BM70m has 60' of mail space. However, it also has windows, thus providing a certain lack of security. The 1954 New York Division Makeup of Trains often requires a "MS60, B60, or R50", so the R50's must have been used for dry storage from time to time. >> I think someone on the list already pointed out that the BM70m did not have 60' of mail "storage" space, but 60' of mail sorting space. Re the R50, most Railway Express reefers in the country were used for general express or mail storage at one time or another, even more so in later years. As one example, I believe the GN steel reefers were probably used more in mail storage than anything else in their later years, especially on the Fast Mail northwest. Having seen those cars on locals into York in videos, I wonder if that was their usage then. Also re the R50, there was the special usage for milk service as well. Anyone know if they were iced much for that service? Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:31:21 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Another MP54 Question Mike asks, > Hi Folks, I just got a Railworks brass MP54 in HO scale. Can anyone >tell me why the MP54 (according to the Railworks models) have Hyatt >sideframes on one truck and different sideframes on the other truck? What >type of truck was the other truck? Mike Bartel Mike, I REALLY hope your not basing your production on Railworks . First, you don't identify the version of MP54 in question (original unpowered coach, powered coach...etc) In addition, not all powered MP54s were the same, as a set were built with more power to pull trailers. The truck sidefames (and wheelbase AFIKR) were different between the powered and non powered truck, and truck sideframes changed over the years, with different trucks on each end. I can reccomend several good sources of photographs that may help with this question. The MP54 article in the Keystone a couple issues back is a good place to start, followed by Under Pennsy Wires, and the Pennsy Power series. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:35:08 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? In a message dated 6/12/02 10:21:20 AM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << Ever try to carry coolers full of stuff up 10 stories? >> I have carried heavy tripods and camera equipment, plus cooler. Good exercise. However, that was when you could go up before the tram opened to view the morning trains. It seems to me that the hours were rather short or inconvenient the last time I was there. I suppose the vandalism accounts for the fact they didn't allow you in to park and walk up early or late. Is that still in effect? Bummer, if it is. Haven't been there in years. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 10:49:07 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car Sam asks: >Group, Couple of questions concerning this car. When was it put into >service? How many were built? I noticed in Model Railroad Craftsman >yesterday that Railworks is making an HO version. I was wondering if it >would be appropriate for the late steam diesel era? Chris sez, >Probably from Westinghouse. When Alco models made the "Queen Mary" it came >with one set of trucks and 2 bodies, a depressed center and a well hole did >the PRR switch the bodies or have 2 complete cars? The single FD2 car was built first in April of 1952, using span bolsters with salvaged 8 wheel tender trucks (most likely from scrapped T1s). The FW1 car body was subsequently built in 1953 to use the same span bolsters for a very specific load. Both car bodies were built by the PRR. It is not clear how often the FW2 body was used, and I would LOVE to see photos of it with a load. The FD2 body was used to transport a variety of cargos including machine press parts as well as Westinghouse generators. The car saw service through PC and well into Conrail. The car is preserved. The Railworks model (at least the factory paint on the one I saw) is incorrect in that the trucks were really black, NOT FCC as painted by RW. The RW model comes with BOTH bodies, as did the ALCO, and the undecs come with a decal sheet, which while it may be correct for some "phases", does not allow the car to be painted in all of its different "phases". I would LOVE to know where to find decals for this car! (guess I could try to get a set from RW!) I have one of the ALCO models (for which I paid about as much as the far superior RW model) and I'll tell you it REALLY eats space on a layout! It occupies about 1/3 of a yard siding on the layout I normally operate on , and the overhang is a killer on any kind of curve less than about 30-35" radius. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 11:13:37 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car >for a very specific load. Both car bodies were built by the PRR. It is >not clear how often the FW2 body was used, ^^^ Sorry, that should reaed FW1! Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 16:22:46 +0000 Wasn't there an interview with the superintndent of the car shop that built it or a Keystone article on the car a couple of years ago? I recall seeing pictures of it in the magazine. N Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:32:43 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Greetings to Jerry, Sean and the list: Remember that this is why so many people traveled via PRR to get to the Mountain House resort at Cresson (roughly 1 mile from where the Station Inn now stands) back in the 19th century. As a place for people to escape the heat and oppressiveness of both Pittsburgh and Philly, it was often advertised with one of its chief attributes being the cool mountain air. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:32:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Another MP54 Question In a message dated 6/12/02 10:38:39 AM Central Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << I REALLY hope your not basing your production on Railworks >> Or any brass model. Not to paint everyone with the same brush, because they vary in accuracy, but you could fill volumes with the inaccuracies in just PRR models. And that wouldn't even have room for the painting inaccuracies (such as $600 GN Glacier Green Pennsy locos and all those tuscan red freight cars). Or the shortcuts, like putting antennas on a 13F82 to represent a 13P75 behind a K4. Or using H21 ribs on an H25 model. Before I would lecture a resin kit manufacturer (I'm not talking about Sunshine and Westerfield who are in a class by themselves) to go back to original drawings, I guess I would even hedge my bet there. Use the drawings verified with good photos to make sure something like the drawing was ever actually built. Bob (owner of a few quasi-accurate brass models) Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:42:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. From: Jerry Britton On 6/12/02 12:32 PM, Dan Cupper (cupper@att.net) wrote: > Remember that this is why so many people traveled via PRR to get to the > Mountain House resort at Cresson (roughly 1 mile from where the Station > Inn now stands) back in the 19th century. As a place for people to > escape the heat and oppressiveness of both Pittsburgh and Philly, it was > often advertised with one of its chief attributes being the cool > mountain air. > While I have never stayed at The Station Inn -- I will, sometime -- I can vouch for the "coolness" of Cresson compared to other locales... Many years ago I went to my first RailFest with a few fellow members of the Northern Central Chapter. We left my place at 5 a.m. so we could be trackside early. The forecast for Altoona was mid-70's and sunny. We made a quick stop at McDonald's in Cresson for coffee, and were trackside at 7:10 a.m. The temperature was in the high 30's and we were all wearing shorts and short sleeves!!! In fact, we saw more than one helper set still bearing ice on the side from overnight! I never thought a morning could last so long! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:09:58 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] The Tunnel Inn/Gallitzin Pa. Greetings to Jerry and the List: Jerry Britton wrote: > > The forecast for Altoona was mid-70's and sunny.> > We ... were trackside at 7:10 a.m. The temperature was in the high 30's and we were all wearing shorts and short sleeves!!! > Also -- and I'm sure Dave Seidel and Andy Mulhollen will be nodding their heads on this one -- because of orographic lifting (a meteorological phenomenon) along the Allegheny Front, the top of the mountain often cooks up its own weather. They and I'm sure many others on the list have had the same experience as me -- either by car or train, departing a clear, sunny Altoona only to arrive in Gallitzin or Cresson minutes later to find snow, sleet, fog, driving rain, or high winds. And year-round, a rule of thumb seems to be that the temp is often at least 10 degrees cooler (and as Jerry reported, sometimes MUCH more) in Cresson/Gallitzin than it is in Altoona. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 13:21:18 -0400 From: Rick Miskell Subject: [PRR] Queen Mary 's other persona After a little discreet searching of the site Howdy referenced I came up with this: http://southern.railfan.net/flat/cars/prr/248/prr470248.html Don't know if the info is accurate but it's a start and references a Pic in PRR Color Guide Vol 2 Page 95. Rick C. F. "Rick" Miskell Operations Manager University of Pittsburgh Department of Biological Sciences A354 Langley Hall Pittsburgh, PA 15260 412-624-4274 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Good website Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 18:06:48 +0000 In the discussion about the Queen Mary was a URL to Tom Dashpit's web site. For those of you who haven't been there it is a great resource for all heavy duty cars especially his love for Schnabel cars. There are several pictures and descriptions of nearly every car known including the Westinghouse cars. It was an invaluable source while I was scratchbuilding my version of one of Westighouses cars. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Some museum observations Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:23:23 -0400 Jerry and list, If you permit, I would like to make some observations on the current debate over Pennsylvania museums from the point of view of someone who has not been in the general area in 22 years and hasn't been to Horseshoe Curve in 35 years. My initial reaction was one of surprise when the Railroader's Memorial Museum was first opened at Altoona, as I considered the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania at Strasburg as the "official" PRR museum after it got the collection from the Northumberland roundhouse. This was later replaced with the thought "Why isn't the 'Northumberland collection' at Altoona, after all, most of them were built there?" I fully understand the concept that the museum on Strasburg is supposed to preserve the mechanical or "object" history of the PRR, while the one at Altoona is supposed to preserve the human or "personal' history of the PRR's employees, but, honestly, does the average museumgoer understand the subtle difference? You all know the answer. >From what I gather, the Strasburg museum is having troubles keeping up with its collection as well. (Isn't the M1 buried in the mud?) Perhaps it's time for those of you living in Pennsylvania to work on your legislators to get all the PRR's historical artifacts in one museum, which at least for a historical perspective, should be in Altoona. After all, the PRR never even went to Strasburg, PA - that's why it had a short line! Just my nickel's worth (inflation you know).. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:34:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Some museum observations From: Jerry Britton On 6/12/02 2:23 PM, Gregg Mahlkov (mahlkov@gtcom.net) wrote: > My initial reaction was one of surprise when the Railroader's Memorial > Museum was first opened at Altoona, as I considered the Railroad Museum of > Pennsylvania at Strasburg as the "official" PRR museum after it got the > collection from the Northumberland roundhouse. This was later replaced with > the thought "Why isn't the 'Northumberland collection' at Altoona, after > all, most of them were built there?" I fully understand the concept that the > museum on Strasburg is supposed to preserve the mechanical or "object" > history of the PRR, while the one at Altoona is supposed to preserve the > human or "personal' history of the PRR's employees, but, honestly, does the > average museumgoer understand the subtle difference? You all know the > answer. The Strasburg museum is part of the Pennsylvania Museum Commission. It is not a "PRR museum", but rather a museum of the railroads of the state of Pennsylvania. PRR is prominent. I'm not sure of the structure of the Altoona museum. Until I hear otherwise, I believe it is an independent museum, locally operated. It is NOT part of the Pennsylvania Museum Commission as Strasburg is, nor is it federal, as Steamtown is. The PRR left its collection to the state of Pennsylvania which, in turn, transferred the collection to its own museum...Strasburg. > > From what I gather, the Strasburg museum is having troubles keeping up with > its collection as well. (Isn't the M1 buried in the mud?) Perhaps it's time > for those of you living in Pennsylvania to work on your legislators to get > all the PRR's historical artifacts in one museum, which at least for a > historical perspective, should be in Altoona. After all, the PRR never even > went to Strasburg, PA - that's why it had a short line! > The Strasburg museum is doing a five-star job. The problem is that equipment came in faster than could be managed, given the funding. They have an excellent rolling stock hall. Perhaps the finest I have seen anywhere. Everything inside is in top-notch shape. Outside there has been much more equipment than could be handled. Piece by piece things are getting attention. The outdoor yard has just had the majority of the trackwork replaced. This will facilitate future construction of a full roundhouse around the turntable. Once the trackwork was replaced, the M1 was moved "from the mud" out onto the very front track where it now greats visitors to the site! It's been given a cosmetic coat of paint and is scheduled for cosmetic restoration in three years. There is much more rolling stock on-site than there is inside storage. There is talk of a second rolling stock hall after the roundhouse is done. But the site slopes away from the current rolling stock hall, so a lot of fill would be required. Nevertheless, it is being discussed. To visit Strasburg, then Altoona, you will be ashamed of the prototype collection at Altoona. It is POOR!!! The Altoona museum, however, has a top-notch interpretive museum of the history of the railroad. Peter Barton did a phenomenal job of creating this masterpiece just a few years ago. The Strasburg museum continues to progress in this area, but will keep an emphasis on the proto collection for the foreseeable future. Overall scores... Strasburg A Altoona C Steamtown Haven't been there ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:39:56 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Some museum observations From: Jerry Britton Another observation... The state received the PRR collection early in the 1970's, I believe. The site at Strasburg was selected for the railroad museum based on other tourist attractions in the area. I don't know the history of the Altoona site, but I'd be willing to bet that the Altoona museum didn't get that property until later. IF that property had been available to the state at the time, I really think the state museum would be in Altoona. It would really be the best of both worlds...Altoona's interpretive museum and Strasburg's rolling stock collection. Millions have been invested in the facility at Strasburg. Were that not the case, I would be first in line to support the state taking over Altoona and moving the railroad museum there. People that want to see proto collections will travel hours to do so. Altoona currently does not have that draw. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Some museum observations Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:37:43 -0400 Don't forget, the museum in Strasburg is the RR Museum of PA, and as such has some Reading equipment. Should prob. have Lackawanna Equipment too, but Steamtown was Lackawanna Land (although they have little or no Lackawanna either!) And don't forget that when the PRR locomotives went to Strasburg there was no museum in Altoona, or a very small one. Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 2:23 PM Subject: [PRR] Some museum observations > Jerry and list, > > If you permit, I would like to make some observations on the current debate > over Pennsylvania museums from the point of view of someone who has not been > in the general area in 22 years and hasn't been to Horseshoe Curve in 35 > years. > > My initial reaction was one of surprise when the Railroader's Memorial > Museum was first opened at Altoona, as I considered the Railroad Museum of > Pennsylvania at Strasburg as the "official" PRR museum after it got the > collection from the Northumberland roundhouse. This was later replaced with > the thought "Why isn't the 'Northumberland collection' at Altoona, after > all, most of them were built there?" I fully understand the concept that the > museum on Strasburg is supposed to preserve the mechanical or "object" > history of the PRR, while the one at Altoona is supposed to preserve the > human or "personal' history of the PRR's employees, but, honestly, does the > average museumgoer understand the subtle difference? You all know the > answer. > > From what I gather, the Strasburg museum is having troubles keeping up with > its collection as well. (Isn't the M1 buried in the mud?) Perhaps it's time > for those of you living in Pennsylvania to work on your legislators to get > all the PRR's historical artifacts in one museum, which at least for a > historical perspective, should be in Altoona. After all, the PRR never even > went to Strasburg, PA - that's why it had a short line! > > Just my nickel's worth (inflation you know).. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Some museum observations Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 15:49:05 -0400 One problem is that the person who does such an outstanding job building, stocking, and opening museums gets rewarded by a promotion and a move. I believe Peter Barton went from Altoona to Sturbridge Village, Bill Withun went from Steamtown to the Smithsonian Institute in DC where I believe he oversees the railroad or transportation collection. Both their replacements had impossible jobs trying to fill their predecessor's shoes. It's the Peter Principle - people rise to their level of incompetence. Solution: Keep them in place, give them a fancier title, and lots more money. Save millions and greatly improve results in the long term. Just one SPF's opinion. I would give: Steamtown B Strasburg A Altoona B- (the museum is top notch, the collection has problems) Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Gregg Mahlkov" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 2:34 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Some museum observations > On 6/12/02 2:23 PM, Gregg Mahlkov (mahlkov@gtcom.net) wrote: > > > My initial reaction was one of surprise when the Railroader's Memorial > > Museum was first opened at Altoona, as I considered the Railroad Museum of > > Pennsylvania at Strasburg as the "official" PRR museum after it got the > > collection from the Northumberland roundhouse. This was later replaced with > > the thought "Why isn't the 'Northumberland collection' at Altoona, after > > all, most of them were built there?" I fully understand the concept that the > > museum on Strasburg is supposed to preserve the mechanical or "object" > > history of the PRR, while the one at Altoona is supposed to preserve the > > human or "personal' history of the PRR's employees, but, honestly, does the > > average museumgoer understand the subtle difference? You all know the > > answer. > > The Strasburg museum is part of the Pennsylvania Museum Commission. It is > not a "PRR museum", but rather a museum of the railroads of the state of > Pennsylvania. PRR is prominent. > > I'm not sure of the structure of the Altoona museum. Until I hear otherwise, > I believe it is an independent museum, locally operated. It is NOT part of > the Pennsylvania Museum Commission as Strasburg is, nor is it federal, as > Steamtown is. > > The PRR left its collection to the state of Pennsylvania which, in turn, > transferred the collection to its own museum...Strasburg. > > > > From what I gather, the Strasburg museum is having troubles keeping up with > > its collection as well. (Isn't the M1 buried in the mud?) Perhaps it's time > > for those of you living in Pennsylvania to work on your legislators to get > > all the PRR's historical artifacts in one museum, which at least for a > > historical perspective, should be in Altoona. After all, the PRR never even > > went to Strasburg, PA - that's why it had a short line! > > > The Strasburg museum is doing a five-star job. The problem is that equipment > came in faster than could be managed, given the funding. > > They have an excellent rolling stock hall. Perhaps the finest I have seen > anywhere. Everything inside is in top-notch shape. > > Outside there has been much more equipment than could be handled. Piece by > piece things are getting attention. The outdoor yard has just had the > majority of the trackwork replaced. This will facilitate future construction > of a full roundhouse around the turntable. > > Once the trackwork was replaced, the M1 was moved "from the mud" out onto > the very front track where it now greats visitors to the site! It's been > given a cosmetic coat of paint and is scheduled for cosmetic restoration in > three years. > > There is much more rolling stock on-site than there is inside storage. There > is talk of a second rolling stock hall after the roundhouse is done. But the > site slopes away from the current rolling stock hall, so a lot of fill would > be required. Nevertheless, it is being discussed. > > To visit Strasburg, then Altoona, you will be ashamed of the prototype > collection at Altoona. It is POOR!!! > > The Altoona museum, however, has a top-notch interpretive museum of the > history of the railroad. Peter Barton did a phenomenal job of creating this > masterpiece just a few years ago. The Strasburg museum continues to progress > in this area, but will keep an emphasis on the proto collection for the > foreseeable future. > > Overall scores... > Strasburg A > Altoona C > Steamtown Haven't been there > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Strasburg M1 Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:51:41 +0000 Other than money and the missing rods is ther any major reason the M1 at Strasburg couldn't be made operational at some point? I for one would love to see that engine in steam again. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg M1 Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 17:05:47 -0400 Keep in mind many years have been spent making a K-4 (1361) operational again, and who knows when it will be finished. Gotta think the M-1 would be much too big a stretch both in dollars and time. Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 4:51 PM Subject: [PRR] Strasburg M1 > Other than money and the missing rods is ther any major > reason the M1 at Strasburg couldn't be made operational > at some point? I for one would love to see that engine > in steam again. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] MP54 question From: "mkwb@excite.com" Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 18:51:01 -0400 (EDT) --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__a42200dfd9f943f0e4fffae2af35fd4d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi guys, Well, the responses I got were a big help..sort of. I'm not using the Railworks MP54 models in production of our kits, though they are providing some inspirations. The version I got was a set of 2 identical painted coaches (one powered model, one dummy model). Both have the sideframe differences. In fact, all the Railworks MP54s I looked at had the same sideframe difference. Other MP54 models I have seen have both trucks with Hyatt sideframes. I've heard of MP54s with other trucks. I am aware of MP54s having differences over the large number the PRR had in their fleet, but the reason I'm asking is to try and narrow it down to a single common version or two. I'd like some consensus on this, because I know if I did one thing wrong, you guys would be all over me. Here's your chance to help a manufacturer get it right- the first time! (By the way, please don't compare IHP to Sunshine or Westerfield or any other resin maker because we're not any of them, and we do things differently than any other maker does.) The question is: what PRR MP54 cars had what trucks, for what reasons, and at what times in their careers? Thanks for your help in advance, Mike Bartel IHP http://ihphobby.tripod.com ------------------------------------------------ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__a42200dfd9f943f0e4fffae2af35fd4d Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi guys,

Well, the responses I got were a big help..sort of.

I'm not using the Railworks MP54 models in production of our kits, though they are providing some inspirations. The version I got was a set of 2 identical painted coaches (one powered model, one dummy model). Both have the sideframe differences. In fact, all the Railworks MP54s I looked at had the same sideframe difference. Other MP54 models I have seen have both trucks with Hyatt sideframes. I've heard of MP54s with other trucks. I am aware of MP54s having differences over the large number the PRR had in their fleet, but the reason I'm asking is to try and narrow it down to a single common version or two. I'd like some consensus on this, because I know if I did one thing wrong, you guys would be all over me. Here's your chance to help a manufacturer get it right- the first time! (By the way, please don't compare IHP to Sunshine or Westerfield or any other resin maker because we're not any of them, and we do things differently than any other maker does.)

The question is: what PRR MP54 cars had what trucks, for what reasons, and at what times in their careers?

Thanks for your help in advance,

Mike Bartel
IHP
http://ihphobby.tripod.com

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The most personalized portal on the Web! --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__a42200dfd9f943f0e4fffae2af35fd4d-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:49:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? In a message dated 6/12/02 11:48:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, charlesr@infonline.net writes: << I was there last Friday and used the steps both up and down rather than wait for the "funicular" (a word I had never heard before). >> Take it that you've never been to Pittsburgh, then - at one time they had several. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 20:05:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum Jerry and list Andy may have made a mistake. I belive the meetings are open to members only. The meeting is in October,at least the one I attended and it was for members only. Speaking of membership. I'm curious how many on this list are members? I'm a life member of the museum. I visit a dozen plus times a year. I always toss a couple of bucks in the bucket and pay my admission. What have you done to support the museum?------Mark L----------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:23:34 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum Members of the List, I want to thank you all for the overwhelmingly supportive personal emails and postings to the list. There was only one person that took some personal shots at me for the way I presented my message. When I was writing that post, I had no idea that my Freshman English Professor Dr. Fitzpatrick (aka Jerry Britton) was online to critique me on my grammer and professionalism. I was hoping to be able to post information to the list on a regular basis, but if I am personally attacked and critisized just because people dont like what they read. I wont be doing it long. Personal hacks have no real place on this list. I realize that may of you purchased Railfest and excursion tickets, however many more did not. I was on the train all weekend, I saw the amount of people trackside and I saw the ticket sales numbers and they were not equal by a long shot. Our Board meetings are open to the Public as far as I know it is not restricted ot members. Voting rights at the annual meeting are however reserved for Life Members. Altoona City Counsel meetings are open to the public too. However I have never recieved an invitation to attend one of them. If I am interested enough in what is going on in the city government I have to pick up the phone and call City Hall and ask for the date and time of the next meeting. Thats all that had to be done if anyone had wanted to attend a Museum Board meeting, just call the museum and ask when and where. To say that you could never attend a meeting because you were not invited it not a valid arguement. Just an excuse. Board meetings are usually held the second thursday of each month on the third floor of the Master Mechanics Building at 5:30pm . These meetings have been suspended as the Board now consists of only 4 members and we meet several times a week at different times and locations as there is a tremendous amount of work to be done. The next full Board meeting will be in September after the Annual meeting of members. At that meeting the Life Members will be voting on the new board members. I will be posting more information as regularly as I can. Thanks for the support. PS does anyone know the phone # for HOOKED ON PHONICS. I guess I need it. Dr Andy Mulhollen Secretary Executive Committee Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:38:30 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] Altoona vs Strasburg Members of the List, I agree, our rolling stock has been left go. Thats why we are embarking on the Quarter Roundhouse Project. To house some of our gems like the Loretto and K4 and some other rare cars we have. Yes we do have a few noteworthy pieces rusting in the yard. We hope to be able to restore them when we have the place to do it and the money. You all must remember that the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania is a commonwealth institution. Its whole budget save what it makes at the gate is given to it by the Commonwealth of PA. The Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum is wholly owned by its members. It does recieve state and federal funding for special projects. But it recieves very little in the way of General Operating Funds from the Commonwealth. I know of no other freestanding Railroad museum that compares to us. There may be one but I don't know of it. I am sure I will be told in no uncertain terms by this list if I am wrong here. I would like to know if I am wrong. Thanks for listening Dr Andy Mulhollen Secretary Executive Committee Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 21:40:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, Weldon wrote: > Whatever, I did not see a post which indicate where the car is preserved. > > Could you tell us?? Well, I hate to even mention it given the discussion going on. (COME ON children, be HAPPY that PA has Strasburg, Scranton AND Altoona...geez, you whiners should be stuck someplace like Alabama, or, um,... Hamburg NY) The car is at the museum in Altoona, AFAIK. Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 22:53:30 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Strasburg Museum Hi All, I have been skimming the various museum threads. A recent one mentioned that it would be great if the M-1b could be restored to running condition. That would be my #2 choice, with the I-1 being a CLOSE first. I was on the tender deck of the M-1b taking photos and doing research about 7 years ago. There were large rods up on the tender deck back then. I heard a few things from a worker at the Museum. 1. They will not put a piece in the building that they do not own. That is why 4800 is outside, because it is owned by the (Lancaster?) chapter of the NHRS. 2. It is in the Museum charter that once the Museum takes ownership of any piece, it is NOT able to be restored to operating condition, OR ever leave the property. These are a few things I heard. I cannot say for sure if they are completely true. I am reserving my opinion of the Altoona museum for a more personal and private conversation because it would probably not be a popular one. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:51:45 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) "Queen Mary" Flat Car That Is correct we have the Queen Mary. Gary Price who was Secretary of the Board before I was had the foresight to ask Conrail to donate this One of a Kind to us several Years ago. She sits in our yard as we speak. She is big and beautiful with those T1 tender trucks under her..... Dr Andy Mulhollen Secretary Executive Committee Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum --- Bruce F Smith wrote: > On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, Weldon wrote: > > > Whatever, I did not see a post which indicate > where the car is preserved. > > > > Could you tell us?? > > Well, I hate to even mention it given the discussion > going on. (COME ON > children, be HAPPY that PA has Strasburg, Scranton > AND Altoona...geez, > you whiners should be stuck someplace like Alabama, > or, um,... Hamburg > NY) The car is at the museum in Altoona, AFAIK. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg M1 Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 23:26:46 -0400 norm- what glass pipe are you smoking. probably the same one the guy is smoking who has been talks about clearing the trees around the curve. why on earth would you need an engine as large and powerful as an M1 for excursion service? it not like the EPA is going to grant your wish and allow it to run in revenue service. or NS will put it in service between altoon and johnstown. gotta love you wishful thinkers. greg v ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 4:51 PM Subject: [PRR] Strasburg M1 > Other than money and the missing rods is ther any major > reason the M1 at Strasburg couldn't be made operational > at some point? I for one would love to see that engine > in steam again. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg Museum Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 23:36:04 -0400 Bill Lane Heard you chickened out on a ride to MG tower. You missed it. You should have went when you had the chance. Dave took me there. No police. Nothing. Only thing in site was a classic castle tower guarded by mountains between 2 lines west signal bridges and 6 axle monsters roaring up the mountain. You need to be more adventurous in life. You should change your name to Bill Lame. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Lane" To: "PRR Talk" Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 10:53 PM Subject: [PRR] Strasburg Museum > Hi All, > > I have been skimming the various museum threads. A recent one mentioned that > it would be great if the M-1b could be restored to running condition. That > would be my #2 choice, with the I-1 being a CLOSE first. > > I was on the tender deck of the M-1b taking photos and doing research about > 7 years ago. There were large rods up on the tender deck back then. > > I heard a few things from a worker at the Museum. > 1. They will not put a piece in the building that they do not own. That is > why 4800 is outside, because it is owned by the (Lancaster?) chapter of the > NHRS. > 2. It is in the Museum charter that once the Museum takes ownership of any > piece, it is NOT able to be restored to operating condition, OR ever leave > the property. > > These are a few things I heard. I cannot say for sure if they are completely > true. > > I am reserving my opinion of the Altoona museum for a more personal and > private conversation because it would probably not be a popular one. > > Thanks > Bill > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LKeough107@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 01:14:09 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Musuem --part1_183.9acb337.2a398421_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dr Andy It is obvious from the tone of your response to our forum that you may be taking the criticism personally. If the shoe fits..... This site was established and is still for those of us who are deeply interested in the historical aspect of the PRR. We are not simple minded "railfans" as you imply. There is a tremendous wealth of information available at this site that would do you well to explore. For you to casually refer to us as the uninformed is indeed an uninformed statement demonstrative of your tunnel vison. This site is home to professionals, professional educators, engineers, authors, railroad employees, historians, modelers and the like (Dr, Lawyer and Indian Chief) with a far greater interest in the historical preservation of the Pennsylvania Railroad than you project in your letter. We flesh things out in this forum, that is how new ideas are generated. To suggest that you have figured out all the problems and answers is quite arrogant and smug. If your Board of Directors has indeed been as diligent in the affairs of the museum as you say, it would not be in the shape it is today. Your museum is obviouly in dire need of an unbiased outside opinion. One with the best interests of the museum and the PRR at heart. (Big picture here). Simple business practice dictates that you pay for your merchandise with the profits your previous inventory has generated. The term stock turn applies here. Turning over your merchandise completely within a specified period of time. Any junior Naval Supply Corps Officer knows this. Surely a well informed board of directors would as well. If you had the appropriate personnel in place the instance of insuring a well stocked gift store would have never presented itself. But the issue of an unstocked gift store is only a small indicator of a much larger problem with the management and its spending habits. This is where key, volunteer, corporate executives serving as advisors to the board would make the difference in the operation and survival of the museum. I have visited both the curve and the museum downtown twice with my family and hope to do so again if that option is still available in the future. As you are obviously unaware, the members of this list are scattered far across this country as well as Canada, Australia and England. We are not all within driving range of the museum. Not even for weekend excursions. If I were, I would indeed be there to volunteer and do what I could to protect and support your museum, something I consider to be a vital part of the PRR history. If we all lived within driving distance, you would be financially solvent, simply from our visits and support. Finally, you suggest that if we can not say something positive about your operation then we should remain silent. Well, as an educated man I feel quite certain that you have at some point studied history and the Bill of Rights. Consequently I feel equally as certain that you are keenly aware that thousands upon thousands of men and women have sacrificed their lives so that we would have the right to freedom of speech. For you to suggest otherwise simply because we disagree with your thoughts and management style speaks volumes as to why the museum may be in the shape it is in today. You and your board of directors put the museum in the condition it is in today whether through uninformed decisions or mismanagement. That is not all that important now. That is the easy part, that is over. Set your ego aside. What needs to be done now is incorporate any and all sources of information and suggestion to resolve the problem and insure that it never happens again. By the way, I too very seldom speak up on the internet. Your scathing letter however certainly warrants a reply. Steve Keough --part1_183.9acb337.2a398421_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dr Andy
  It is obvious from the tone of your response to our forum that you may be taking the criticism personally.  If the shoe fits.....   This site was established and is still for those of us who are deeply interested in the historical aspect of the PRR.  We are not simple minded "railfans" as you imply.  There is a tremendous wealth of information available at this site that would do you well to explore.  For you to casually refer to us as the uninformed is indeed an uninformed statement demonstrative of your tunnel vison.  This site is home to professionals, professional educators, engineers,  authors, railroad employees, historians, modelers and the like (Dr, Lawyer and Indian Chief)  with a far greater interest in the historical preservation of the Pennsylvania Railroad than you project in your letter.  We flesh things out in this forum, that is how new ideas are generated.  To suggest that you have figured out all the proble   If your Board of Directors has indeed been as diligent in the affairs of the museum as you say, it would not be in the shape it is today.  Your museum is obviouly in dire need of an unbiased outside opinion.  One with the best interests of the museum and the PRR at heart.  (Big picture here).  Simple business practice dictates that you pay for your merchandise with the profits your previous inventory has generated.  The term stock turn applies here.  Turning over your merchandise completely within a specified period of time.  Any junior Naval Supply Corps Officer knows this.  Surely a well informed board of directors would as well.  If you had the appropriate personnel in place the instance of insuring a well stocked gift store would have never presented itself.  But the issue of an unstocked gift store is only a small indicator of a much larger problem with the management and its spending habits.  This is where key, volunte   I have visited both the curve and the museum downtown twice with my family and hope to do so again if that option is still available in the future.  As you are obviously unaware, the members of this list are scattered far across this country as well as Canada, Australia and England.  We are not all within driving range of the museum.  Not even for weekend excursions.  If I were, I would indeed be there to volunteer and do what I could to protect and support your museum, something I consider to be a vital part of the PRR history.  If we all lived within driving distance, you would be financially solvent, simply from our visits and support.
  Finally, you suggest that if we can not say something positive about your operation then we should remain silent.  Well, as an educated man I feel quite certain that you have at some point studied history and the Bill of Rights.  Consequently I feel equally as certain that you are keenly aware that thousands upon thousands of men and women have sacrificed their lives so that we would have the right to freedom of speech.  For you to suggest otherwise simply because we disagree with your thoughts and management style speaks volumes as to why the museum may be in the shape it is in today.  You and your board of directors put the museum in the condition it is in today whether through uninformed decisions or mismanagement. That is not all that important now. That is the easy part, that is over.  Set your ego aside.  What needs to be done now is incorporate any and all sources of information and suggestion to resolve the problem and insure that it never h   By the way, I too very seldom speak up on the internet.  Your scathing letter however certainly warrants a reply.
                                                                                      Steve Keough --part1_183.9acb337.2a398421_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 01:27:40 -0800 From: smartcommco@earthlink.net Subject: [PRR] Altoona Fairwell The Horror, When I was a small boy I would go down to Pennsylvania Station in New York City with my box of water colors and paint loving illustrations of the sparkling GG1's and their majestic consists of Tuscan red and gold. One day a man named Bill Strasser invited me up to his office in the station and gave me a stack of Pennsy magazines and a mailing tube of Pennsylvania Calendars. He was cleaning out his office before moving to 1 Penn Center. The mighty terminus was preparing to die. I continued my pilgrimage to the tracks and made the acquaintance of a Harrisburg Engineman named Bill Shipp who suggested I turn my paintings into Safety Posters. I did so and as a result, at the age of 14 I became the youngest employee of the PRR, developing Safety Materials for the New York, Middle and Pittsburgh Regions until the merger. I literally grew up on the PRR and their salary put me through school, while men such as Mr. Strasser, Grif Teller, Mel Jackman and the wonderful people at Al Paul Lefton set me on a highly successful career on Madison Avenue. These men are gone now and as Greg Martin so eloquently put it, so are the insights as to why and how they helped to create the "Standard Railroad of the World". The only thing that remains of any substance is the town of Altoona and the cultural history preserved by the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. Mr. Keough suggests we look at the "Big Picture" here. The Big Picture is abundantly clear. The Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum is about to die. The only memorial to the men and women who built the company we all profess to care so much about is in jeopardy of extinction. Our response has been to complain about the access from the Interstate, the fees on the funicular, the lack of merchandise in the gift shop, the grammar of the only Board Member who even cares enough to address these lists, the rust on the GP-9 and on and on. I contacted Mr. Levin and offered my services as a marketing person to the museum. He forwarded my credentials to Dr. Mullhollan. Dr. Mullhollan contacted me last week and asked for my help. I volunteered my services and the services of my firm pro bono, with two caveats. First, that our out of pocket expenses ( postage, duplicating, etc.) be covered and second that we be given the creative freedom to do what had to be done to bring the museum to the attention of those who could save it from a tragic demise. Dr. Mullhollan has yet to respond to our generous offer of assistance. So be it. I believe as many of you do, that the history of the PRR and Altoona are more important than the agendas, short comings, misgivings, short tempers and insensitivities of those charged with its stewardship. As such, whatever those issues may be, they should be overlooked in light of the seriousness of the situation. The fact is the current Board is the only hope we have of maintaining the integrity of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. As such they require all the morale, physical, verbal and financial support we can muster. For my part, first, I'm sending them a check. Second, I am offering the following advise for what it's worth. (which at my current monthly retainer fee is about $35,000) 1. The Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum has continually overlooked its most important selling point. It is the ONLY Railroad Memorial Museum in America. As such it should be positioned as a living tribute to those who have given their lives in the service of our nation's railroads. Those whose family members have lost their lives on the railroad should have those loved ones memorialized in Altoona, the nation's first "Railroad Town". Those names should be cast in Altoona brick and those bricks should be laid in state on the museum grounds. My grandfather died on the railroad and I would send a $100 donation to the museum to know his name would not be forgotten. I would also make it my business to visit the site of his memorial and make sure my children and their grandchildren did the same and that that Memorial lasted as long as I could support it. I'm sure that tens of thousands of other Americans would do the same. 2. The Pennsylvania Railroad was the birthplace of the modern day corporation. Every business in America owes its existence to the management principals developed by the PRR. This fact has not been celebrated by any museum in America as well as it has been celebrated at the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. The University of Pennsylvania's Wharton B-School, The University of Pittsburgh and Carnegie-Mellon should all be enlisted to support the development of a Pennsylvania Railroad Case Study Series based at the the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum with a percentage of the tuition going to support the museum. 3. Corporate America is faced with a diminishing audience for their network television efforts. As a result they are constantly searching for worthwhile endeavors to sponsor. A trip to any search engine and the typing in of the word "Railroad" will bring up more hits than Elvis or Jesus Christ. If railroads are more popular than either of those two gentlemen than a strong case can be made for Corporate Sponsorship of the Museum's restoration projects. Warren Buffet (Coca-Cola) Bill Gates ( Microsoft ) and many other corporate leaders are avid railfans. There's two to start with. 4. General Electric is a major vendor to America's railroads. GE owns NBC. Sponsor produced programming is the wave of the future ( Survivor, American Idol, etc.) General Electric should be approached by the NS PR Department to pitch the idea a weekly network television show to be produced about a Museum Director to takes a job in Altoona to save a dying Railroad Museum. Think it sounds far fetched? So did a lawyer who goes to Stuckyville and buys a bowling alley at the time. If GE baulks, GM should be next in line to pitch it to CBS, Fox and ABC. If successful, such a show would make Altoona a major tourist attraction. 5. Many of you are excellent photographers. Make some prints of your work. Donate them to the museum to sell in the gift shop. Many of you are model Railroaders. Donate a few cars or a locomotive to be sold in the gift shop. Those trainbooks you wife complains about that are gathering dust. Send a couple off to the gift shop. Start thinking of it as a Thrift Shop. Dr. Mullholan, do us all a favor. Go down to Mr. McNitts old office, open his desk drawer. Take out Greg Martin's beautiful Genesis F-Units. Take a picture of them ( or use my Genesis ad) put them on eBay, auction them off to the highest bidder. Ask the bidder to leave them on loan to the museum. Send them to President Bush for display in the White House. Send out a press release about the gift and the plight of the museum. 6. Everybody on this list. Send out ten letters to railfans you know. Ask them to send a $10 dollar donation to the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum in honor and memory of the men and women who made the Pennsylvania Railroad what it was. But please, please, please do something besides criticize. Or there will be nothing left to criticize. And a little bit of all of us will die with the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael DiMaio" Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 05:23:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Triumph Does any one have the email address of David Messer or Charles Roberts, both writers of Triumph, a History of the PRR?: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:41:59 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg M1 Other than money, there is no reason we can't build a new one, or a T1 or a J1 or a Q2 ... But that's a pretty good reason. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ndbprr@att.net wrote: > Other than money and the missing rods is ther any major > reason the M1 at Strasburg couldn't be made operational > at some point? I for one would love to see that engine > in steam again. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Strasburg M1 Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:58:42 +0000 I think the M1 is the greatest engine the PRR ever had. It is certainly a better choice than trying to rebuild the I1 rust bucket in New York. I was just curious if there was something major that would preclude it being rebuilt some day. And yes I do realize that money is a problem and stated so in my first line. however if I ever win the lottery and pay for the rebuild myself I have a list of people who won't get cab rides based on their sarcastic remarks. > norm- > > what glass pipe are you smoking. probably the same one the guy is smoking > who has been talks about clearing the trees around the curve. > > why on earth would you need an engine as large and powerful as an M1 for > excursion service? it not like the EPA is going to grant your wish and > allow it to run in revenue service. or NS will put it in service between > altoon and johnstown. > > gotta love you wishful thinkers. > > greg v > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "PRR-Talk" > Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 4:51 PM > Subject: [PRR] Strasburg M1 > > > > Other than money and the missing rods is ther any major > > reason the M1 at Strasburg couldn't be made operational > > at some point? I for one would love to see that engine > > in steam again. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Laird" Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 08:23:34 -0500 There has been much discussion lately on this list regarding the plight of the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. Some criticism, some presentation of the facts, and some positive ideas to help the situation. I am a long time Pennsy fan who remembers the PRR from my youth and although I now live in Texas, I still thirst for more pictures, stories, information, and opportunities to visit the remains of the Pennsy. I have made three trips east in the past several years with the specific goal to visit PRR related sites. Each time I have stopped at Altoona and visited the museum (the first time was before they moved into the new Master Mechanics building) and the curve. I would hate to loose these, or any other, PRR historical sites. I live a long way from PA, as do many, many other Pennsy fans, who as was previously stated live literally all over the world, and it is impossible for us to be there in person for the museum on a regular basis. However, I believe we all share the thirst for PRR information. The Altoona RR Memorial Museum has a tremendous wealth of that information. I would like to suggest that the museum develop some formal way of providing that information, for a fee, to all Pennsy fans. Things that come to mind are: A monthly magazine A series of videos Books based on material in the museum Photographs I am sure that there are many other ways to provide information and receive compensation, a win-win situation in my book. Lastly, I would like to suggest that each of us on the PRR-List send a donation to the museum today. Mine is in the mail. The address for the museum is: Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum, 1300 Nineth Street, Altoona, PA 16602. Bill Laird Canyon Lake, Texas ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:40:53 -0400 Andy, Please don't stop posting to and communicating via the list. It is an excellent forum and virtually all of us are interested in what's going on (the real information - not rumors and guesses). As for some people taking personal shots at you, I find that goes along with life. I get all sorts of personal shots taken at me, but I let them roll off like water off a duck's back and keep doing what I believe is right. As I told someone on the list, with respect to English and grammar (probably spelled wrong!), I don't know of too many steam locomotive engineers from the old days who had college degrees, but they sure have a lot of fascinating information and experiences. Hell, I have college degrees, but they're in engineering, not english. My english is as bad as a lot of others! So thanks again, Andy, and keep that information coming Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "andy mulhollen" To: "prr talk" Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 10:23 PM Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum > Members of the List, > I want to thank you all for the overwhelmingly > supportive personal emails and postings to the list. > There was only one person that took some personal > shots at me for the way I presented my message. When I > was writing that post, I had no idea that my Freshman > English Professor Dr. Fitzpatrick (aka Jerry Britton) > was online to critique me on my grammer and > professionalism. > I was hoping to be able to post information to > the list on a regular basis, but if I am personally > attacked and critisized just because people dont like > what they read. I wont be doing it long. Personal > hacks have no real place on this list. > I realize that may of you purchased Railfest and > excursion tickets, however many more did not. I was > on the train all weekend, I saw the amount of people > trackside and I saw the ticket sales numbers and they > were not equal by a long shot. > Our Board meetings are open to the Public as far > as I know it is not restricted ot members. Voting > rights at the annual meeting are however reserved for > Life Members. > Altoona City Counsel meetings are open to the > public too. However I have never recieved an > invitation to attend one of them. If I am interested > enough in what is going on in the city government I > have to pick up the phone and call City Hall and ask > for the date and time of the next meeting. Thats all > that had to be done if anyone had wanted to attend a > Museum Board meeting, just call the museum and ask > when and where. To say that you could never attend a > meeting because you were not invited it not a valid > arguement. Just an excuse. > Board meetings are usually held the second > thursday of each month on the third floor of the > Master Mechanics Building at 5:30pm . These meetings > have been suspended as the Board now consists of only > 4 members and we meet several times a week at > different times and locations as there is a tremendous > amount of work to be done. The next full Board meeting > will be in September after the Annual meeting of > members. At that meeting the Life Members will be > voting on the new board members. > I will be posting more information as regularly > as I can. Thanks for the support. > PS does anyone know the phone # for HOOKED ON PHONICS. > I guess I need it. > Dr Andy Mulhollen > Secretary > Executive Committee > Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Altoona Museum Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 09:52:52 -0400 Andy and List, Does anyone know whether cash gift contributions to the Altoona museum are tax deductible? And are they likely eligable for corporate matching gifts? Every little bit helps. Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Croyden station Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 14:00:19 +0000 Does anybody know a source where I can get pictures or plans to model Croyden station on the corridor? There is one picture on pennsy Power 2 but it isn't that great a shot. Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:04:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] How much water did they need in the age of steam? --part1_189.91ac6c1.2a3a0088_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List, I don't recall the book, in it a J1 was listed as using around three hundred (350) gallons per mile while climbing from Altoona to the tunnels. That is seven fifty gallon oil drums for us who need a visual aid. In the NYC's film "The Steam Locomotive, bear with me I know that is (was) the enemy, they mention that their Hudson's, also J1's, used almost three hundred gallons per mile on the NY City to Chicago passenger runs. On the WK&S tourist line near Allentown, Pa., back in the 60's when they ran a Baldwin Prairie (former BH&S #250, 2-6-2) with four coaches and an open gondola, the loco used about two thousand gallons per nine mile trip. That loco weighed in at just over ninety tons. Evan Leisey --part1_189.91ac6c1.2a3a0088_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List,

  I don't recall the book, in it a J1 was listed as using around three hundred (350) gallons per mile while climbing from Altoona to the tunnels.  That is seven fifty gallon oil drums for us who need a visual aid.  In the NYC's film "The Steam Locomotive, bear with me I know that is (was) the enemy, they mention that their Hudson's, also J1's, used almost three hundred gallons per mile on the NY City to Chicago passenger runs.

 On the WK&S tourist line near Allentown, Pa.,  back in the 60's when they ran a Baldwin Prairie (former BH&S #250, 2-6-2) with four coaches and an open gondola,  the loco used about two thousand gallons per nine mile trip.  That loco weighed in at just over ninety tons.

Evan Leisey
--part1_189.91ac6c1.2a3a0088_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:05:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum From: Jerry Britton I, too, have encouraged Dr. Mulhollen to continue to use this list as a forum to keep us apprised of the status of the Altoona museum. Perhaps I came across too personal -- as I sometimes do -- when I made the comments that struck a nerve...and led to my promotion as an English professor! (By the way, please see http://www.hookedonphonics.com/ !) Andy's initial post did indeed include some factual information and clarification that is important for us all to hear...and I encourage its continuance. My concerns, not intended to be taken so personally, were: * By making a post and signing one's title and "Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum" one is pretty much positioning themself as making an "official statement". That being said, the appearance needs to be professional. Instead, it was full of malformed sentences, some poor grammar, and a lot of missed punctuation. In hindsight, my comment should perhaps have been sent privately and read more as a suggestion. My mistake. * Andy made some assumptions that "implied" that the readership did not spend its money at the museum and its endeavors. I suspect that is a minority case. I have visited the museum no less than six times and have attended RailFest at least four times, including excursions fees. I did not take his statements personally, but reacted on behalf of what I felt was the majority. Perhaps as moderator of this list I should not have taken that liberty. In any event, what is important is helping the Altoona museum as we can. While some assert financial contributions, that may help in the short term. However, it is obvious that fundamental changes are in order or the museum will just be like a boat...a hole in the water into which you pour money! An anonymous writer provided several thoughts, one of which I found especially sound: Sell bricks engraved with the names of former PRR employees and sell them at $100 each. Harrisburg recently did this for Civil War vets for their Civil War Museum which is gaining national notoriety. Fund raising from the above needs to go into an endowment, not the general fund. Grow an endowment and use the interest to offset annual shortcomings. I've offered Andy the opportunity to provide Keystone Crossings with an ad for the random banner ad pool. It's not much, but it's something I can do. Andy: You indicated that board meetings were open to the public. Other members of the museum indicated they were not. As an officer of the museum, please confirm. If they are indeed open, I will add the schedule of meetings to the Timetable on Keystone Crossings. Then you can look forward to some new faces! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:50:28 -0400 From: Rick Miskell Subject: [PRR] re: Altoona Fairwell It amazes me that no response has been made, by the museum, to this offer. Here's a person who obviously knows how to get something done and they don't reply. Hmm...... I recently have come to the conclusion that banks and insurance companies are not your friends. Their mission in life is not to help you keep or protect your money, rather to make as much of your money theirs as possible. This is what concerned me when I read in the Post-Gazette that a retired banker had taken over the BOD. Business people with a bent for producing capital are a definite plus for the Board and for volunteers. A good finance person who is on your side is a definite plus. ALL the good finance people do not necessarily have bank work experience. I would be much more confidant about the future of the Museum if I read that retired/active business owners had been recruited to guide the turn around. C. F. "Rick" Miskell Operations Manager University of Pittsburgh Department of Biological Sciences A354 Langley Hall Pittsburgh, PA 15260 412-624-4274 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:06:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Fairwell In a message dated 6/13/02 3:29:02 AM Central Daylight Time, smartcommco@earthlink.net writes: << The Pennsylvania Railroad was the birthplace of the modern day corporation. >> Nice post. I have read somewhere that the Pennsylvania Railroad was the largest corporation in the world at one time. I can't find my source, but that is also an argument for its history. Its management, good or bad, conservative or not, met a challenge of managing something of a size not previously encountered, at least in a free society. As you point out, how the management and labor accomplished that is a story worth telling. Reminds me a little of my feelings when I finished Ambrose's book on the Transcontinental Railroad. Made you appreciate President Lincoln, those entrepreneurs,managers, and the Irish and Chinese workers (some of whose work is still traveled upon today). I'd like to see the Pennsy story. I am personally starting with Set Up Running, John Orr, which arrived in the mail yesterday. Your thoughts are a great departure from just trying to rearrange a few more buckets of rust in hopes people will want to visit. Bob (off to see UP Challenger 3985 at speed) Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:18:39 -0400 From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Speaking of Altoona AND Strasburg Gentry, Thanks for the advice and input regarding the Altoona area. I think what'll I do is stay at the Days Inn, seeing as how they have a good central location and offer deep discounts to Federal employees. Thanks too, for the reminder about Hosses', this is a definite must do (or must-eat); Lakemont Park sounds like a backup to keep the kids from going stir crazy from too much railfanning. The museum will also be a contender, depending on weather. I'm dissapointed that their bookshelves are reportably getting thin; last year I bought three books and a couple mags there. I'm wondering about another detail. I plan to stop by at Strasburg after leaving Altoona, enroute to South Jersey. It's hard to choose by looking at the map, but what's the better route timewise from Altoona to Strasburg? A person could either drop down to the I76 turnpike or take PA 22 along the old Middle Division. Naturally I'd prefer the scenic route along the railroad, but I don't want to use a lot of extra time. Anyone familar with the driving times of these two routes? Thanks again, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:31:22 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Speaking of Altoona AND Strasburg From: Jerry Britton On 6/13/02 11:18 AM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: > I'm wondering about another detail. I plan to stop by at Strasburg after > leaving Altoona, enroute to South Jersey. It's hard to choose by looking at > the map, but what's the better route timewise from Altoona to Strasburg? A > person could either drop down to the I76 turnpike or take PA 22 along the old > Middle Division. Naturally I'd prefer the scenic route along the railroad, but > I don't want to use a lot of extra time. Anyone familar with the driving times > of these two routes? Altoona to Harrisburg East exit of I-76 is about 2:15 (by way of I-99). Altoona to same by way of PA 22 can probably be done in about 2:30-2:45. However, the PA 22 route is one lane in areas and is subject to rush hours in Harrisburg. So timing of your trip is very important. >From the Harrisburg East exit, you can take PA 283 to Lancaster, then east on US 30 to Strasburg. This stretch will take about :45-:60, depending on the time of day. The route through Lancaster has been rebuilt so it will go pretty well. However, once you are on US 30 east of Lancaster it will slow down. You might want to look at turnpike exits east of Harrisburg, though I have never gone that way. I live just off I-83 between Harrisburg and York. I go south to York and east on US 30 and get to the museum at Strasburg in about an hour. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:55:20 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona to Strasburg Greetings to Barry and the List: Turnpike (I-76) and I-99 is definitely faster, with a 65 mph limit almost all of the distance, even though it is slightly longer than the William Penn Highway (US22) routing. I live in Harrisburg and several times a year make business trips to Altoona, usually out and back in one day. I usually go via Turnpike so as not to waste time, since I'm often heading for a meeting or appointment. Also, in the mornings, those school buses can slow things down on the two-lane areas west of Lewistown. I return via US220-PA453-US22 (follows the railroad most closely) in the evening when I'm not on such a tight schedule. Average times: Harrisburg to Altoona via Turnpike, 2:20 to 2:30; via Route 22, 2:45. On the latter, right now there's a lot of road reconstruction going on between the south end of the Lewistown Narrows and Amity Hall, with several single-lane restrictions (Mifflintown, Newport) in place. Between Harrisburg and Strasburg, no route is optimum at the moment. Ordinarily you'd do best to get off the Turnpike at Harrisburg East and use PA283 to US30, but reconstruction is under way betwen Middletown and Elizabethtown and it's down to one lane in each direction there, too. Staying on the Turnpike may save a few minutes to the Lebanon-Lancster interchange, but from there south to US30 at Lancaster is a slow two-lane PA 72. For this portion, Harrisburg to Strasburg, give yourself fully one hour via either routing. Hope this helps. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:46:02 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: Stationary decoders List members, As Jerry has stated, I have been using the NCE Switch-It devices on my layout for about a year. I built my layout to be as interactive with the operators as possible and thereby I chose to use only Caboose Industry hand-throws for all turnouts that were within reach of the aisle. I have over 35 turnouts on my layout and I host operating sessions once a month for 8-10 crew members plus a YM and Dispatcher. I also model in HO Scale. OLD pictures of my layout can be found at: kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/kulp/index.html When Jerry finally gets back to my place to take some updated pictures, this will be corrected. When my first session showed some problems with having turnouts thrown by the crews while the dispatcher maintained control over movements, my dispatcher asked if there was some way to put the turnouts under his control. Jeff Warner had shown me the NCE devices and after I tested one, I decided to give them a try with the 6 motorized switches on my layout. I am using a computer to control my signaling and the program needs to know switch positions as well. I had feedback to the system via the contacts on the Tortoise machines I had in place as well as micro switches on the hand throws. Jef is a computer wizard, bar none, and he had created a program using available Digitrax TSRs by John Kabat. Not only can you control locomotives, He added a program to control stationary decoders like the NCE Switch-It. We tested the devices during the second operating session of the year just prior to the PRRT&HS national convention and I had even added 8 more Tortoise machines to the layout to provide almost total control of the turnouts to the dispatcher during the session. The session was a great success and the dispatcher was amazed at how well the devices worked. The NCE devices use rail power to activate and drive the turnout motors. The only time there is any drain of power is when the motor is turning. The stall power is no worse than an engine setting on the rails with it's light on. The drawback is if you use power-routing switches. Some bone-headed throttle-jockey runs an open switch and your power district shuts down. A catch-22 is that if you use the same power district to throw the switch, you can't correct the situation because of the short killing the rail power. My solution was to power the switch from a different power district than the rails that it throws. The problem is non-existant if you use non-power routing switches. The NCE device permits you to use any available address instead of the mandatory consecutive addressing the DS54 requires. It is capable of handling a pair of motors per address if you have a situation like a cross-over on the mainline. They can be thrown from the throttles, a computer with appropriate software and auxilary buttons on the facia or a CTC panel at the dispatcher's station using RIX CTC controllers. As far as system feedback goes, whenever I check a turnout position on my throttle, it is always correct but I also do not shut down my DCS-100, I put it into sleep mode at the end of a session. In closing, I like the devices. They have opened up a whole new way of operation to my sessions and they have not detracted from the fun during an op session since the dispatcher is responsible for traffic flow. If anyone would like to see them in operation, a simple request is all that is needed to visit my layout. Preferrably a Sunday afternoon since I won't answer the phone on Saturdays out of consideration to the guys that help build my layout during a work session. Regards, Nick Kulp >Both lack auxiliary power inputs and I am wondering if having 100 turnouts >connected on a layout would cause a negative effect (though I will have four >power districts with their own boosters). Can anyone comment on the power >draw? > >FWIW, I consider the cost per turnout to be equal, even though the NCE is >slightly more expensive. > http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:41:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Stationary decoders From: Jerry Britton On 6/13/02 1:46 PM, Nick Kulp (caseyj@igateway.com) wrote: > As Jerry has stated, I have been using the NCE Switch-It devices on my layout > for about a year. Sorry, list, but Nick mistakenly responded on the wrong list...this was intended for the PRR-ER list! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Stationary decoders Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:54:11 -0500 Is there not a recent article in Model Raolroader about how to control switches fromtwo different locations? -----Original Message----- From: Nick Kulp [mailto:caseyj@igateway.com] Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 12:46 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Re: Stationary decoders List members, As Jerry has stated, I have been using the NCE Switch-It devices on my layout for about a year. I built my layout to be as interactive with the operators as possible and thereby I chose to use only Caboose Industry hand-throws for all turnouts that were within reach of the aisle. I have over 35 turnouts on my layout and I host operating sessions once a month for 8-10 crew members plus a YM and Dispatcher. I also model in HO Scale. OLD pictures of my layout can be found at: kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/kulp/index.html When Jerry finally gets back to my place to take some updated pictures, this will be corrected. When my first session showed some problems with having turnouts thrown by the crews while the dispatcher maintained control over movements, my dispatcher asked if there was some way to put the turnouts under his control. Jeff Warner had shown me the NCE devices and after I tested one, I decided to give them a try with the 6 motorized switches on my layout. I am using a computer to control my signaling and the program needs to know switch positions as well. I had feedback to the system via the contacts on the Tortoise machines I had in place as well as micro switches on the hand throws. Jef is a computer wizard, bar none, and he had created a program using available Digitrax TSRs by John Kabat. Not only can you control locomotives, He added a program to control stationary decoders like the NCE Switch-It. We tested the devices during the second operating session of the year just prior to the PRRT&HS national convention and I had even added 8 more Tortoise machines to the layout to provide almost total control of the turnouts to the dispatcher during the session. The session was a great success and the dispatcher was amazed at how well the devices worked. The NCE devices use rail power to activate and drive the turnout motors. The only time there is any drain of power is when the motor is turning. The stall power is no worse than an engine setting on the rails with it's light on. The drawback is if you use power-routing switches. Some bone-headed throttle-jockey runs an open switch and your power district shuts down. A catch-22 is that if you use the same power district to throw the switch, you can't correct the situation because of the short killing the rail power. My solution was to power the switch from a different power district than the rails that it throws. The problem is non-existant if you use non-power routing switches. The NCE device permits you to use any available address instead of the mandatory consecutive addressing the DS54 requires. It is capable of handling a pair of motors per address if you have a situation like a cross-over on the mainline. They can be thrown from the throttles, a computer with appropriate software and auxilary buttons on the facia or a CTC panel at the dispatcher's station using RIX CTC controllers. As far as system feedback goes, whenever I check a turnout position on my throttle, it is always correct but I also do not shut down my DCS-100, I put it into sleep mode at the end of a session. In closing, I like the devices. They have opened up a whole new way of operation to my sessions and they have not detracted from the fun during an op session since the dispatcher is responsible for traffic flow. If anyone would like to see them in operation, a simple request is all that is needed to visit my layout. Preferrably a Sunday afternoon since I won't answer the phone on Saturdays out of consideration to the guys that help build my layout during a work session. Regards, Nick Kulp >Both lack auxiliary power inputs and I am wondering if having 100 turnouts >connected on a layout would cause a negative effect (though I will have four >power districts with their own boosters). Can anyone comment on the power >draw? > >FWIW, I consider the cost per turnout to be equal, even though the NCE is >slightly more expensive. > http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:02:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? In a message dated 6/12/02 11:40:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jlrosen@wpa.net writes: << We always called em inclines. >> Funicular: (operative root word is a cord or fiber) refers to the cord or cable. Surprised that Mark Bey has not weighed it on this, as one series of meanings of the word has to due with his medical specialty. Nerves or bundles of nerves such as the spinal cord. It would be possible to have a single car or multiple car Funicular Railway (Like the cable S.F. cable car system) but term Funicular Raiway has come to mean systems like Pburgh's or Altoona's where the weight of the ascending car is fully or partially offsett by the descending car. Anyone care to comment on present or former locations, other than the ones cited above? Dick Ross, Cleveland. BTW - the idea of selling named bricks is not bad - but both Altoona and Strasburgh have been selling name plates for the memory of railroaders - for a long time - (My family bought 2 at Strsburgh, before the Altoona museum opened - The ones in Strasburgh are in the Rolling Stock Hall - the ones at Altoona were buried in the conference room, last time I was there.) Duplication of effort and duplication of fund raising - my feeling is that the downtown portion of the Altoona museum and anything salvageable, from the collection should be transferred to the Curve or to Strasburgh, in order to assure the survival of those 2 sites....... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:35:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum Sorry Jerry,I made a mistake. The meeting I attended was in late Sept. just before Railfest. It was the annual members only meeting.-----Mark---- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LKeough107@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 20:44:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Musuem --part1_168.f0c49c9.2a3a966d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sir Thank you for responding. I for one would like to thank you for your generosity in providign your services "pro bono" to the museum. Although I agree with the spirit of your letter I would like to disagree to oen particular part. As I am the author of the message you refer to, my reference to the "big picture" is simply this. The big picture is the historic value of the Pennsylvania Railroad. The big picture is the restoration of the PRR station in Latrobe Pa, the big picture is the preservation of PRR's first hump yard in Youngwood Pa. The big picture is in Enola, Philidelphia, & Pittsburgh. The big picture is the decaying round house in Ohio which was reported on this list several months ago, possibly a resource for materials for the quarter round house at Altoona. The big picture is the preservation of documents, artifacts and tangible items that remain from the PRR. The situation at Altoona is the current squeeky wheel and warrants immidiate attention. What needs to be done now is for all of us to put our shoulders together to rectify this situation and insure it does not happen again. Last night I responded to what I perceived as a very angry letter attacking this list and the many quality people that make it what it is. If you took offense to my response, sorry. But, I will not appologize for defending the integrity of this list and its subscribers. As you are well aware, I spoke up last night. But, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is and sent a donation today to the museum as Mr Bill Laird of Texas did earlier today. Take care. Steve Keough --part1_168.f0c49c9.2a3a966d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sir
  Thank you for responding.  I for one would like to thank you for your generosity in providign your services "pro bono" to the museum.  Although I agree with the spirit of your letter I would like to disagree to oen particular part.  As I am the author of the message you refer to, my reference to the "big picture" is simply this.  The big picture is the historic value of the Pennsylvania Railroad.  The big picture is the restoration of the PRR station in Latrobe Pa, the big picture is the preservation of PRR's first hump yard in Youngwood Pa.  The big picture is in Enola, Philidelphia, & Pittsburgh.  The big picture is the decaying round house in Ohio which was reported on this list several months ago, possibly a resource for materials for the quarter round house at Altoona.  The big picture is the preservation of documents, artifacts and tangible items that remain from the PRR.  The situation at Altoona is the current squeeky whee   What needs to be done now is for all of us to put our shoulders together to rectify this situation and insure it does not happen again.  Last night I responded to what I perceived as a very angry letter attacking this list and the many quality people that make it what it is.  If you took offense to my response, sorry.  But, I will not appologize for defending the integrity of this list and its subscribers.  As you are well aware, I spoke up last night.  But, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is and sent a donation today to the museum as Mr Bill Laird of Texas did earlier today.  Take care.
                                                                                                  Steve Keough --part1_168.f0c49c9.2a3a966d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] (PRR) Imperial Models Q2 Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:01:21 -0400 Group, This is a question for the HO modelers out there. I have a bad gearbox in this Q2 Does anyone know a drop in replacement? And while I am at it Should I get a can motor? Thanks for all the help on this. Sam Vastano McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. PH 724-368-8040 X243 Fax 724-368-9677 _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:23:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? --part1_139.fab90d6.2a3a9f83_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 06/13/2002 8:07:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, VVA249@aol.com writes: > Anyone care to comment on present or former locations, other than the > ones cited above? > > Johnstown -- first and only (I think) remaining automobile incline. At one time there were 11 of these in Pittsburgh. Rich Orr --part1_139.fab90d6.2a3a9f83_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 06/13/2002 8:07:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, VVA249@aol.com writes:


   Anyone care to comment on present or former locations, other than the
ones cited above?



Johnstown -- first and only (I think) remaining automobile incline.  At one time there were 11 of these in Pittsburgh.

Rich Orr --part1_139.fab90d6.2a3a9f83_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:36:04 -0400 From: Godfrey Hall Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? There were 2 "incline railways" @ the turn of the century in Hamilton, ON Canada - Godfrey Hall VVA249@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/12/02 11:40:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jlrosen@wpa.net > writes: > > << We always called em inclines. >> > Funicular: (operative root word is a cord or fiber) refers to the cord or > cable. > Surprised that Mark Bey has not weighed it on this, as one series of > meanings of the word has to due with his medical specialty. Nerves or bundles > of nerves such as the spinal cord. > It would be possible to have a single car or multiple car Funicular > Railway (Like the cable S.F. cable car system) but term Funicular Raiway has > come to mean systems like Pburgh's or Altoona's where the weight of the > ascending car is fully or partially offsett by the descending car. > Anyone care to comment on present or former locations, other than the > ones cited above? > > Dick Ross, > Cleveland. > > BTW - the idea of selling named bricks is not bad - but both Altoona and > Strasburgh have been selling name plates for the memory of railroaders - for > a long time - (My family bought 2 at Strsburgh, before the Altoona museum > opened - The ones in Strasburgh are in the Rolling Stock Hall - the ones at > Altoona were buried in the conference room, last time I was there.) > Duplication of effort and duplication of fund raising - my feeling is > that the downtown portion of the Altoona museum and anything salvageable, > from the collection should be transferred to the Curve or to Strasburgh, in > order to assure the survival of those 2 sites....... > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:48:00 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Altoona... never say Fairwell Harry, This is a most generous offer... I admire your gift and hope the museum's BoD see it as a once in a life time gift. smartcommco@earthlink.net writes: > I contacted Mr. Levin and offered my services as a marketing person to the museum. He forwarded my credentials to Dr. Mullhollan. Dr. Mullhollan contacted me last week and asked for my help. I volunteered my services and the services of my firm pro bono, with two caveats. First, that our out of pocket expenses (postage, duplicating, etc.) be covered and second that we be given the creative freedom to do what had to be done to bring the museum to the attention of those who could save it from a tragic demise. Dr. Mullhollan has yet to respond to our generous offer of assistance. So be it.< One can only hope that they see your vision and take advantage of your offer. I think the idea of auctioning off the Athearn Genises F-Unit set and the ad as well as the photo I worked from would is fanstic and hopefully make a nice little package that could help in some small way to aid the museum. I will take this one step furhter and donate to the museum in the name of Mr. David Sweetland my Life Like ALCo PA/B set as a permanent part of the museums display in the same manner. Perhaps we could convince Mr. Sweetland to loan us his origainl slides that I worked from just one more time for duplication to make the package complete. Again, allowing them to be auctioned off to the highest bidder and I bet I could get Life Like to be the opening bidder. I was given a photo from the John D. Hahn collection by Mr. Paul Withers of an EMD F-3 A/A set of diesel locomotives to work from for an upcoming poject, again I would be willing to donate these to the museum as a package in the name of the late John D Hahn, Paul Withers and Dan Cupper, the keepers of the keys to Jo Again, I always believed a museum was forever... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:44:54 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Altoona... never say Fairwell Harry, This is a most generous offer... I admire your gift and hope the museum's BoD see it as a once in a life time gift. smartcommco@earthlink.net writes: > I contacted Mr. Levin and offered my services as a marketing person to the museum. He forwarded my credentials to Dr. Mullhollan. Dr. Mullhollan contacted me last week and asked for my help. I volunteered my services and the services of my firm pro bono, with two caveats. First, that our out of pocket expenses (postage, duplicating, etc.) be covered and second that we be given the creative freedom to do what had to be done to bring the museum to the attention of those who could save it from a tragic demise. Dr. Mullhollan has yet to respond to our generous offer of assistance. So be it.< One can only hope that they see your vision and take advantage of your offer. I think the idea of auctioning off the Athearn Genises F-Unit set and the ad as well as the photo I worked from would is fanstic and hopefully make a nice little package that could help in some small way to aid the museum. I will take this one step furhter and donate to the museum in the name of Mr. David Sweetland my Life Like ALCo PA/B set as a permanent part of the museums display in the same manner. Perhaps we could convince Mr. Sweetland to loan us his origainl slides that I worked from just one more time for duplication to make the package complete. Again, allowing them to be auctioned off to the highest bidder and I bet I could get Life Like to be the opening bidder. I was given a photo from the John D. Hahn collection by Mr. Paul Withers of an EMD F-3 A/A set of diesel locomotives to work from for an upcoming poject, again I would be willing to donate these to the museum as a package in the name of the late John D Hahn, Paul Withers and Dan Cupper, the keepers of the keys to Jo Again, I always believed a museum was forever... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 00:00:17 -0400 From: dwsnrhs@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum Greetings to List; There was a recent thread in the subject discussion wondering "how" and "why" there came to be a museum in Altoona. The answer to this is in the history of the Horseshoe Curve chapter NRHS at www.trainweb.org/horseshoecruve-nrhs. But, since I was around in those days, here goes. During 1964 and 1965 Altoona was aware that the Commonwealth of PA intended to build the Railroad Museum of PA, and, as would be expected, Altoona competed for the site location as did other locales, especially Lancaster County. At the time, Altoona had significant intact PRR infrastructure, especially the PRR Test Plant and Locomotive Test Rack. Lancaster had Tourism established. Altoona lacked a "Senior" politician. Lancaster did not. And the rest is history. No sour grapes, just facts and that's the way it was. Altoona's disappointment was of significant magnitude and a big let-down, however. In 1966, I and about 5 other persons, answered an adv in the local paper placed by the Blair County Tourist and Convention Bureau to explore ways and means to establish a railroad museum for Altoona. While the initial meeting brought no answers, the group bonded in a common cause. From this grew a loose-knit organization known as the Altoona Railway Museum Club and we started to explore the issue, and began to sponsor various PRR-related historical displays in store windows and other locations to generate an awareness of the Altoona heritage. In 1967, the members of the Altoona Railway Museum Club became aware of an organization known as the National Railway Historical Society. ARMC applied for a charter and the Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS was granted that charter on May 11, 1968. Almost simultaneous to the granting of the NRHS charter, the new Horseshoe Curve Chapter gained two new members: Mr. and Mrs. Raymond Garvin. Mr. Garvin came to Altoona from Bradford to head up the Blair County Tourist and Convention Bureau, became aware of our group and joined. Mr. Garvin later moved to the position of Marketing Director of Central Counties Bank. However, he was in a position of influence in the community and through his efforts and leadership, (Altoona) Railroader's Memorial Museum was officially chartered as a PA non-profit corporation (on paper) in 1972, just 4 years after the granting of the NRHS charter. Through his continued leadership, ARMM slowly began to take shape, mostly on paper, but with it's roots in the Horseshoe Curve Chapter. A board was formed and efforts to increase heritage awareness and raise funds continued. At the time when the "pet rock" was popular, museum members got seed money by selling baby food jars of steam locomotive exhaust cinders for a dollar per jar. With the subsequent purchase and arrival in Altoona of the first significant piece of rolling stock for the museum, Charles M. Scshwab's private railroad car, the "Loretto", (From the Magee Transportation Museum at Bloomsburg, PA) the museum project gained greater credibility. Gradually, however, the (Altoona) Railroader's Memorial Museum gained a life of it's own and, although born in and through the Horseshoe Curve Chapter, became a separate entity of necessity. Finally, museum doors in the one-story (now building B) opened on September 21, 1980. The Altoona museum is a private non-profit corporation, built and constructed without government grants or funds. Local contributions and a capital fund-raising campaign built the intial facility. The original mortage of $500,000. was paid off by the museum's 5th birthday. And the rest is history, as they say. Today, ARMM is a multi-million dollar non-profit corporation with state-of-the-art facilities. State and private grants have assisted in capital expansion projects, but is still a non-governmentally supported operation as far as the general funding stream goes. Regardless of the present difficulties, we in Altoona value this museum and are proud of it. And, Pennsylvania is fortunate to be home to many superb transportation museums, the hallmark of which is that none duplicate each other in the story told. As a docent and museum volunteer, I can see the benefits to the greater Altoona area when I talk with and explain this valuable heritage to tours of school students, especially in the elementary and middle school ranges. We must see that the story continues. ARMM hopes for your support, both financial and, if not, in spirit. Dave Seidel Chapter Historian, Horseshoe Curve Chapter NRHS PRRT&HS member ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 21:02:04 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum Members of the List, I am very impressed with this group of people. I am sorry if I sounded like I thought the people on this list were dumb. They are uninformed at times about things but I am hoping to keep you all informed. I was overjoyed to hear some of you guys are sending a donation. Please, if you send a donation write on the check on on a note with it that you are a member of this group. I would very much like to see that all of you are given credit together as members of this group. If you have already sent a donation but did not identify yourself as a prrtalk member then please email me off list so I can tell Mary to watch for them so I can put your name with the rest of the guys. I did reply to Mr Webber asking for some more info. I guess I sent it to the wrong address, I did not blow him off. Just a misunderstanding. I have emailed him again at the address he gave to the list. This is a very generous offer that he has made. I hear concerns about Memorial Hall. It is in Building B (the origional Museum building) . It looks the same as the day it was started , which is really not that good. Remodeling Memorial Hall is high on the priority list of things to do when the dust settles and we are on firm financial ground again. We already have the plans drawn up. It will look very nice when it is done. I think it is probably the single most significant place in the museum as it is where we pay tribute to those who made the PRR great. We are hoping to actually start holding memorial services there on a regular basis. This is part of the refocusing of museum priorities. We had a meeting today of the Chairman of several of the Committees that are in place. We have several active committes made up of community leaders and business people who are volunteering their time to the cause. While I cannot give you alot of details about the meeting . There are alot of things in the works. We hope to have alot more special programs including a possible Antique Roadshow type program for Railroad Collectibles. Sounds like fun to me. I just wanted to give you an example. I am heading up the Railfest efforts at this time. I am looking for good ideas of things to have in the yard for Railfest this year. If anyone has a good idea please email me offlist I am all ears. I have some ideas of my own but I would like input from this group. Thanks for your time. Dr Andy Mulhollen Secretary Executive Committee Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:13:10 +0000 There were several in Cincinatti at one time and there is one in Chatanooga. Also one at the Royal Gorge that takes you down to the bottom. But on the PRR I have no idea. N Bell > In a message dated 06/13/2002 8:07:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > VVA249@aol.com writes: > > > > Anyone care to comment on present or former locations, other than the > > ones cited above? > > > > > > Johnstown -- first and only (I think) remaining automobile incline. At one > time there were 11 of these in Pittsburgh. > > Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 11:55:08 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C2139A.54990140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What in he world is an automobile incline? Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message -----=20 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com=20 To: VVA249@aol.com ; Prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 9:23 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? In a message dated 06/13/2002 8:07:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, = VVA249@aol.com writes:=20 Anyone care to comment on present or former locations, other than = the=20 ones cited above?=20 Johnstown -- first and only (I think) remaining automobile incline. = At one time there were 11 of these in Pittsburgh.=20 Rich Orr ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C2139A.54990140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What in he world is an automobile = incline?
 
Bill Bigler
Modeling PRR Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport WWII
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 SUVCWORR@aol.com=20
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 = 9:23=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A = MUSEUM TO=20 FAR?

In a = message dated=20 06/13/2002 8:07:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, VVA249@aol.com writes:


   Anyone care to comment on present or = former=20 locations, other than the
ones cited above?=20



Johnstown -- first and only (I think) = remaining=20 automobile incline.  At one time there were 11 of these in = Pittsburgh.=20

Rich Orr ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01C2139A.54990140-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:16:55 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? --- William Bigler wrote: > What in he world is an automobile incline? An incline equiped to carry automobiles, that is, a flat platform you candrive onto and be whisked up (or down) the hill. There may be a more generic term, but I don't know what it is. In Pittsburgh, some of the inclines were so equiped in pre-automobile days to allow horse-drawn wagons to get up hills without working the horses to death. Given that many early cars and trucks were rather low-powered, they too needed such a service. I believe the motivation in Johnstown was to provide an escape route in the event of another flood. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:30:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? From: Jerry Britton On 6/14/02 12:16 PM, robert netzlof (wb3iqe@rocketmail.com) wrote: > An incline equiped to carry automobiles, that is, a > flat platform you candrive onto and be whisked up (or > down) the hill. There may be a more generic term, but > I don't know what it is. > > In Pittsburgh, some of the inclines were so equiped in > pre-automobile days to allow horse-drawn wagons to get > up hills without working the horses to death. Given > that many early cars and trucks were rather > low-powered, they too needed such a service. > > I believe the motivation in Johnstown was to provide > an escape route in the event of another flood. > > I was in Johnstown a few weekends ago and witnessed two autos make the trip. Interesting. A pedestrian could get a round trip for $4. I believe an auto and its driver could go one way for $6, but don't quote me! It doesn't save a ton of driving, so I guess it's just a novelty for some. I believe you are correct in indicating the original intent was an escape route in the event of another flood (following the most famous one in 1899). I also seem to recall that the upper hills were not yet very settled. The incline provided transportation to and from the city to encourage people to move uphill. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:59:16 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] When was MS60 really a proxy code? Seems to mean more than X42 In a message dated 6/8/02 7:14:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, docfoot@bellsouth.net writes: > Rick & List- > > According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct > class. > > My list states the following: > MS60- X-42 -60' Mail Storage Car-Blt.1950- #2540-2549- 2D-F32 > > 1/53 ORPTE lists; > > MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. > > Regards, > > Eddie > > Dr. Edmond L. Freed > PRRT&HS # 156 > Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO > Hi Eddie, Thanks for the input. As you show, the ORPTE's do not list class designations, and so conclusions from there are dependent on deduction. For example, we have to recognize the ten X42's (when they show up in the ORPTE) by their numbers (2540-49), and by their fairly unique AAR Mechanical Code (MR). I've never seen a photo of an X42 where it was identified as an MS60. The car itself is always lettered X42. But I notice also their description as "Postal Storage Cars". In other postings, we learn that some B60 cars were once equipped with bag hooks and designated as MS60's -- but it's said they were redesignated to B60b's? in the Twenties? Thirties?. A 1939 consist starts out with a definition list for the equipment called out, and includes B50, B60, B70, and MS60 -- nevertheless, many other "nonclass" designations like BG for baggage and EXP for express. As late as 1950 I find a note in a New York Division train consist that 4 series of cars are "Baggage cars equipped with permanent swinging mail stanchions". The numbers given are B60b's, though not identified as such there. Total cars equipped could be as high as 539. In 1950, the consist books call for a large number of MS60 cars. In fact, #13 alone calls for 15 MS60. I think this alone rules out X42's being all of the mysterious MS60. OTOH, X42's had to be part of them, as they are not called out separately in these consists, even though they're known to be active on these trains. Eddie, can you identify the source of the line you cite as "my list"? Could it be indicating that X42 class were part of an MS60 grouping for operations purposes? With a little more evidence, I'm willing to believe: 1. MS60 was once a class designation for a B60 variant, but disappeared as a mechanical department class long ago. 2. In planning consists (which are issued by the operating department), post-WW2, the MS60 refers to a number of different cars (including B60 and X42 and foreign cars that wound up online) that can provide a 60' mail storage space. 3. MS60 may or may not refer to B60b's with permanent mail stanchions (5600-5797, 7435-7439, 9000-9200, 9270-9404). Question: is it just chance that some B60b's with gold stars (indicating toilet, etc. for express messenger) fit in these number series? 4. I'm not sure how pure we can get on this. For example, in a Sept 1953 consist, #4 carries an MS-60 carrying NEWSWEEK daily from Dayton to New York, but on Tuesday that car is replaced by two B60's, one of them a sealed car. Another car in the same train is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh, and a third is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh ex. Sunday. There's a lot we don't know. For example, is MS60 a code for storage of US mail only? Or would any 60' space (say, for Railway Express) be tagged MS60? Judging from the email traffic, this subject is of interest to many. Thanks to all who contributed info so far... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Deo18C/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:59:16 EDT Subject: [PRR] When was MS60 really a proxy code? Seems to mean more than --part1_de.2883aabb.2a3b7ae4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/8/02 7:14:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, docfoot@bellsouth.net writes: > Rick & List- > > According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct > class. > > My list states the following: > MS60- X-42 -60' Mail Storage Car-Blt.1950- #2540-2549- 2D-F32 > > 1/53 ORPTE lists; > > MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. > > Regards, > > Eddie > > Dr. Edmond L. Freed > PRRT&HS # 156 > Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO > Hi Eddie, Thanks for the input. As you show, the ORPTE's do not list class designations, and so conclusions from there are dependent on deduction. For example, we have to recognize the ten X42's (when they show up in the ORPTE) by their numbers (2540-49), and by their fairly unique AAR Mechanical Code (MR). I've never seen a photo of an X42 where it was identified as an MS60. The car itself is always lettered X42. But I notice also their description as "Postal Storage Cars". In other postings, we learn that some B60 cars were once equipped with bag hooks and designated as MS60's -- but it's said they were redesignated to B60b's? in the Twenties? Thirties?. A 1939 consist starts out with a definition list for the equipment called out, and includes B50, B60, B70, and MS60 -- nevertheless, many other "nonclass" designations like BG for baggage and EXP for express. As late as 1950 I find a note in a New York Division train consist that 4 series of cars are "Baggage cars equipped with permanent swinging mail stanchions". The numbers given are B60b's, though not identified as such there. Total cars equipped could be as high as 539. In 1950, the consist books call for a large number of MS60 cars. In fact, #13 alone calls for 15 MS60. I think this alone rules out X42's being all of the mysterious MS60. OTOH, X42's had to be part of them, as they are not called out separately in these consists, even though they're known to be active on these trains. Eddie, can you identify the source of the line you cite as "my list"? Could it be indicating that X42 class were part of an MS60 grouping for operations purposes? With a little more evidence, I'm willing to believe: 1. MS60 was once a class designation for a B60 variant, but disappeared as a mechanical department class long ago. 2. In planning consists (which are issued by the operating department), post-WW2, the MS60 refers to a number of different cars (including B60 and X42 and foreign cars that wound up online) that can provide a 60' mail storage space. 3. MS60 may or may not refer to B60b's with permanent mail stanchions (5600-5797, 7435-7439, 9000-9200, 9270-9404). Question: is it just chance that some B60b's with gold stars (indicating toilet, etc. for express messenger) fit in these number series? 4. I'm not sure how pure we can get on this. For example, in a Sept 1953 consist, #4 carries an MS-60 carrying NEWSWEEK daily from Dayton to New York, but on Tuesday that car is replaced by two B60's, one of them a sealed car. Another car in the same train is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh, and a third is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh ex. Sunday. There's a lot we don't know. For example, is MS60 a code for storage of US mail only? Or would any 60' space (say, for Railway Express) be tagged MS60? Judging from the email traffic, this subject is of interest to many. Thanks to all who contributed info so far... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_de.2883aabb.2a3b7ae4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/8/02 7:14:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, docfoot@bellsouth.net writes:


Rick & List-

According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct class.

My list states the following:
MS60- X-42 -60' Mail Storage Car-Blt.1950-     #2540-2549-    2D-F32   

1/53 ORPTE lists;

MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars.

Regards,

Eddie

Dr. Edmond L. Freed
PRRT&HS # 156
Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO


Hi Eddie,

Thanks for the input.  As you show, the ORPTE's do not list class designations, and so conclusions from there are dependent on deduction.  For example, we have to recognize the ten X42's (when they show up in the ORPTE) by their numbers (2540-49), and by their fairly unique AAR Mechanical Code (MR).

I've never seen a photo of an X42 where it was identified as an MS60.  The car itself is always lettered X42.  But I notice also their description as "Postal Storage Cars".

In other postings, we learn that some B60 cars were once equipped with bag hooks and designated as MS60's -- but it's said they were redesignated to B60b's? in the Twenties? Thirties?.  A 1939 consist starts out with a definition list for the equipment called out, and includes B50, B60, B70, and MS60 -- nevertheless, many other "nonclass" designations like BG for baggage and EXP for express.  As late as 1950 I find a note in a New York Division train consist that 4 series of cars are "Baggage cars equipped with permanent swinging mail stanchions".  The numbers given are B60b's, though not identified as such there.   Total cars equipped could be as high as 539.

In 1950, the consist books call for a large number of MS60 cars.  In fact, #13 alone calls for 15 MS60.  I think this alone rules out X42's being all of the mysterious MS60.  OTOH, X42's had to be part of them, as they are not called out separately in these consists, even though they're known to be active on these trains.

Eddie, can you identify the source of the line you cite as "my list"?  Could it be indicating that X42 class were part of an MS60 grouping for operations purposes?

With a little more evidence, I'm willing to believe:
1. MS60 was once a class designation for a B60 variant, but disappeared as a mechanical department class long ago.
2. In planning consists (which are issued by the operating department), post-WW2, the MS60 refers to a number of different cars (including B60 and X42 and foreign cars that wound up online) that can provide a 60' mail storage space.
3. MS60 may or may not refer to B60b's with permanent mail stanchions (5600-5797, 7435-7439, 9000-9200, 9270-9404).  Question: is it just chance that some B60b's with gold stars (indicating toilet, etc. for express messenger) fit in these number series?
4.  I'm not sure how pure we can get on this.  For example, in a Sept 1953 consist, #4 carries an MS-60 carrying NEWSWEEK daily from Dayton to New York, but on Tuesday that car is replaced by two B60's, one of them a sealed car.  Another car in the same train is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh, and a third is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh ex. Sunday.

There's a lot we don't know.  For example, is MS60 a code for storage of US mail only?  Or would any 60' space (say, for Railway Express) be tagged MS60?

Judging from the email traffic, this subject is of interest to many.  Thanks to all who contributed info so far...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_de.2883aabb.2a3b7ae4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:57:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? --part1_108.133d44f7.2a3b8892_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 06/14/2002 12:02:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wbigler@stny.rr.com writes: > What in he world is an automobile incline? > > Bill Bigler > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > It is like any other incline/funicular only large enough and powerful enough to carry automobiles up and down the incline. Rich Orr --part1_108.133d44f7.2a3b8892_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 06/14/2002 12:02:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wbigler@stny.rr.com writes:


What in he world is an automobile incline?

Bill Bigler
Modeling PRR Renovo &
    Williamsport WWII


It is like any other incline/funicular only large enough and powerful enough to carry automobiles up and down the incline.

Rich Orr --part1_108.133d44f7.2a3b8892_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 14:07:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? From: Jerry Britton On 6/14/02 1:57 PM, SUVCWORR@aol.com (SUVCWORR@aol.com) wrote: > In a message dated 06/14/2002 12:02:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > wbigler@stny.rr.com writes: > > > What in he world is an automobile incline? > > Bill Bigler > Modeling PRR Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > > > It is like any other incline/funicular only large enough and powerful enough > to carry automobiles up and down the incline. > Just so happens somebody did a web page on the Johnstown funicular... http://www.funimag.com/funimag10/JOHNSTOW.HTM ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 19:11:40 +0000 actually as long as the load is BALANCED and the cable is strong enough there really isn't a limit to how much weight you can move up or down the inlcine. All you need to do is overcome the forces of friction. That is how the Portage railroad moved barges and trains over the mountains when built. > In a message dated 06/14/2002 12:02:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > wbigler@stny.rr.com writes: > > > > What in he world is an automobile incline? > > > > Bill Bigler > > Modeling PRR Renovo & > > Williamsport WWII > > > > It is like any other incline/funicular only large enough and powerful enough > to carry automobiles up and down the incline. > > Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:09:55 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh inclines Someone rashly said "...Pittsburgh had 11...". See: http://www.sgi.net/marbles/may96/incl2.html for information on the *15* inclines in Pittsburgh. Please note that the Monogahela Incline (both of them)) on its way from Carson St. to the top of Mt. Washington passed over the tracks of the PCC&StL (Pittsburgh and Steubenville, actually). Also, the Penn Incline passed over the full width of the yards at the Pennsylvania Station, thus doubly preserving topicality. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 15:13:20 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR: X-29 photos From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Listers I have scanned a side view slide of PRR MW X-29 box car #489546 that sat on the wreck train siding at Sewickley, PA, for months at a time. I'm not used to the slide scanner and am having trouble getting the brightness and contrast just right. By Monday I hope to have scans of the B end, details of the B end showing the cut lever and brake chain attachment to the shaft, and a couple of shots of the underside detail. These shots were taken in July 1995. I have not seen this car for two or three years, and a MW worker at Penn Station in Pittsburgh told me it was going to be scrapped. It is MW yellow, very rusty, with shadow keystone. Using my microscope I can see a build month of 10, but rust is covering the year. If anyone knows the year of construction, I'd appreciate receiving the info. If anyone outside my list of permanent photo recipients wants copies let me know. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 13:21:33 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh inclines A few minutes ago I rashly claimed there had been 15 inclines in Pittsburgh. See: http://pittsburgh.miningco.com/cs/transhistory/ then click on "Chronology of Pittsburgh inclines" for a look at a mere whisper of data on *19* inclines. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Faniculars and Inclines Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:28:20 -0400 Whoops! I sent this to the wrong list by mistake. Here's your copy; > I believe the first and original incline was on the "Isle of Capri" in > Italy. It's still in operation and was (and is to this day) called a > Funicular. Perhaps you remember the childhood song "Faniculi, Fanicula." > That refers to (or came from) faniculars. I rode the Capri funicua a couple > years ago. Fantastic place, Capri. I recommend it. Not trains though! Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:38:17 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR-Modeling] When was MS60 really a proxy code? Seems to mean > RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > Hi Eddie, > Thanks for the input. As you show, the ORPTE's do not list class > designations, and so conclusions from there are dependent on deduction. For > example, we have to recognize the ten X42's (when they show up in the ORPTE) > by their numbers (2540-49), and by their fairly unique AAR Mechanical Code > (MR). I've never seen a photo of an X42 where it was identified as an MS60. The > car itself is always lettered X42. But I notice also their description as > "Postal Storage Cars". Rick & Lists- I based my statement on a list that I have developed for the year 1953. The only info I could find on MS60 were the numbers 2540-2549. The 1/53 ORPTE lists these cars as: MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. No other cars on this ORPTE are listed as MR- Postal storage. All of the numbers you have listed are noted as: BE- Baggage-Express-steel. Therefore, I deduced that MS60 was a distinct class. > As late as 1950 I find a note in a New York Division > train consist that 4 series of cars are "Baggage cars equipped with permanent > swinging mail stanchions". The numbers given are B60b's, though not > identified as such there. "Permanent swinging mail stanchions" are the hooks attached to the cars at the doors for mail pickup. I think they were used on RPO's, not on Mail-Storage cars. > In 1950, the consist books call for a large number of MS60 cars. In fact, > #13 alone calls for 15 MS60. I think this alone rules out X42's being all of > the mysterious MS60. OTOH, X42's had to be part of them, as they are not > called out separately in these consists, even though they're known to be > active on these trains. X42 cars were built in 1950. I do not know whether MS60 was used on Baggage cars prior to 1953. It is certainly possible, but as my interest lies in 1953, I have never researched it further. > Eddie, can you identify the source of the line you cite as "my list"? Could > it be indicating that X42 class were part of an MS60 grouping for operations > purposes? I have created a personal list using the cars listed on the 1/53 ORPTE. It includes class, names, numbers, length, paint, trucks & other info. It was compiled from every book I own, info found on web sites & reviewing several thousand e-mail messages. Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO > > With a little more evidence, I'm willing to believe: > 1. MS60 was once a class designation for a B60 variant, but disappeared as a > mechanical department class long ago. > 2. In planning consists (which are issued by the operating department), > post-WW2, the MS60 refers to a number of different cars (including B60 and > X42 and foreign cars that wound up online) that can provide a 60' mail > storage space. > 3. MS60 may or may not refer to B60b's with permanent mail stanchions > (5600-5797, 7435-7439, 9000-9200, 9270-9404). Question: is it just chance > that some B60b's with gold stars (indicating toilet, etc. for express > messenger) fit in these number series? > 4. I'm not sure how pure we can get on this. For example, in a Sept 1953 > consist, #4 carries an MS-60 carrying NEWSWEEK daily from Dayton to New York, > but on Tuesday that car is replaced by two B60's, one of them a sealed car. > Another car in the same train is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh, > and a third is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh ex. Sunday. > > There's a lot we don't know. For example, is MS60 a code for storage of US > mail only? Or would any 60' space (say, for Railway Express) be tagged MS60? > > Judging from the email traffic, this subject is of interest to many. Thanks > to all who contributed info so far... > > Rick Tipton > > In a message dated 6/8/02 7:14:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > docfoot@bellsouth.net writes: > > > Rick & List- > > According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct > > class. > > My list states the following: > > MS60- X-42 -60' Mail Storage Car-Blt.1950- #2540-2549- 2D-F32 > > 1/53 ORPTE lists; > > MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Deo18C/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:38:17 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] When was MS60 really a proxy code? > RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > Hi Eddie, > Thanks for the input. As you show, the ORPTE's do not list class > designations, and so conclusions from there are dependent on deduction. For > example, we have to recognize the ten X42's (when they show up in the ORPTE) > by their numbers (2540-49), and by their fairly unique AAR Mechanical Code > (MR). I've never seen a photo of an X42 where it was identified as an MS60. The > car itself is always lettered X42. But I notice also their description as > "Postal Storage Cars". Rick & Lists- I based my statement on a list that I have developed for the year 1953. The only info I could find on MS60 were the numbers 2540-2549. The 1/53 ORPTE lists these cars as: MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. No other cars on this ORPTE are listed as MR- Postal storage. All of the numbers you have listed are noted as: BE- Baggage-Express-steel. Therefore, I deduced that MS60 was a distinct class. > As late as 1950 I find a note in a New York Division > train consist that 4 series of cars are "Baggage cars equipped with permanent > swinging mail stanchions". The numbers given are B60b's, though not > identified as such there. "Permanent swinging mail stanchions" are the hooks attached to the cars at the doors for mail pickup. I think they were used on RPO's, not on Mail-Storage cars. > In 1950, the consist books call for a large number of MS60 cars. In fact, > #13 alone calls for 15 MS60. I think this alone rules out X42's being all of > the mysterious MS60. OTOH, X42's had to be part of them, as they are not > called out separately in these consists, even though they're known to be > active on these trains. X42 cars were built in 1950. I do not know whether MS60 was used on Baggage cars prior to 1953. It is certainly possible, but as my interest lies in 1953, I have never researched it further. > Eddie, can you identify the source of the line you cite as "my list"? Could > it be indicating that X42 class were part of an MS60 grouping for operations > purposes? I have created a personal list using the cars listed on the 1/53 ORPTE. It includes class, names, numbers, length, paint, trucks & other info. It was compiled from every book I own, info found on web sites & reviewing several thousand e-mail messages. Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO > > With a little more evidence, I'm willing to believe: > 1. MS60 was once a class designation for a B60 variant, but disappeared as a > mechanical department class long ago. > 2. In planning consists (which are issued by the operating department), > post-WW2, the MS60 refers to a number of different cars (including B60 and > X42 and foreign cars that wound up online) that can provide a 60' mail > storage space. > 3. MS60 may or may not refer to B60b's with permanent mail stanchions > (5600-5797, 7435-7439, 9000-9200, 9270-9404). Question: is it just chance > that some B60b's with gold stars (indicating toilet, etc. for express > messenger) fit in these number series? > 4. I'm not sure how pure we can get on this. For example, in a Sept 1953 > consist, #4 carries an MS-60 carrying NEWSWEEK daily from Dayton to New York, > but on Tuesday that car is replaced by two B60's, one of them a sealed car. > Another car in the same train is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh, > and a third is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh ex. Sunday. > > There's a lot we don't know. For example, is MS60 a code for storage of US > mail only? Or would any 60' space (say, for Railway Express) be tagged MS60? > > Judging from the email traffic, this subject is of interest to many. Thanks > to all who contributed info so far... > > Rick Tipton > > In a message dated 6/8/02 7:14:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > docfoot@bellsouth.net writes: > > > Rick & List- > > According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct > > class. > > My list states the following: > > MS60- X-42 -60' Mail Storage Car-Blt.1950- #2540-2549- 2D-F32 > > 1/53 ORPTE lists; > > MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:40:21 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR MP54 Info Hi Mike, I'm posting this reply to the list so that the listers can double check me ! >That's about the only information I've gotten from my inquiry on this >board that even began to answer my question, but it still doesn't tell >me everything. It seemed a logical reason just by looking at it, and >it's what I need to know for sure. What cars changed, to what trucks, >and at what point in their careers? Where can I find this out? OK, here's what I've found in a first scan of my reference material: 1) As you may realize, the use of the generic class "MP54" for electrically powered cars is incorrect. On the PRR, class MP54 were unpowered coaches without pantographs, propulsion equipment or controls. When built, these cars received plain bearing trucks (2C-P1) with a 7'0" wheelbase. 2C-P2 plain journal trucks with an 8'0" wheelbase were applied at some point. These are early trucks with channel or I-beam sideframes. 2) When initially modified to use as self propelled cars, the class was changed to MP54E1. The power truck was located under the pantograph, and is shown in plans to have an 8'8" wheelbase while the non-powered truck has a 8'0" wheelbase. As far as I can tell, the power truck was class 2D6P1 with an 8'8" wheelbase and plain bearings. The unpowered truck remained as before. Coincident were the creations of classes MPB54BE1 (combine), MB62E1 (baggage) and MBM62E1 (baggage-mail). 3) An additional group of 201 cars were added from 1926-30, including the only cars (69) built from scratch for use as self-propelled cars, creating class MP54E2 (and additional combined, baggage and mail classes in the E2 group). A builder's photo from this group implies that at least some of these cars were built with what you refer to as "Hyatt" trucks. This is probably a poor choice of terminology. These trucks appear to be class 2D8P1, with roller bearings (identified as SKF in the Keystone 33(3), 2000) and an 8'8" wheelbase. 4) Between 1932 and 1937 approximately 46 motorized cars were converted to class E3 including 38 coaches and 8 baggage. These motors may have been equipped with class 2D8P1 trucks as well. In addition 4 unpowered baggage mail cars and 43 coaches were converted to classed MBM62T and MP54T, retaining their earlier trucks and were semipermanently coupled to the power cars. Note: I thought that some of these cars had their back vestibule windows blanked out, but the only photo I've seen is of a MP54E2... 5) Sometime around 1934, MP54E1-3 appear in photos with a mix of trucks. In some cases, earlier photos show two 2D8P1 trucks first, followed by replacement of the unpowered truck with what appears to be a earlier 2C-P2 truck. Others may have had only their original power truck replaced with a 2D8P1 truck. Plain bearing nonpowered trucks were still in use into the 1960's. 6) When upgraded to MP54E5/E6 standards in the 1950's many of these cars received 2D12P1 trucks with an 8'10" wheelbase, Timken roller bearings and traction motors on both trucks. References: The Keystone, Autumn 2000 (vol 33 no 3). Pennsy Car Plans, Robert J. Wayner, 1969 Pennsylvania Railroad Heavyweight Passenger Equipment Plan and Photo Book, N.J.International Inc, 1984 Pennsy Power II, Staufer Under Pennsy Wires, Carlton Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:42:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Columbus replacing Dennison as a classification Also app;ies to watering distances... A piece of "oral" history from the "docent" at the Dennison depot museum - last time I was there a few summers ago - Their Depot is a RR - WW2 museum dedicated to the "Doughnut Dollies" at their Depot during WW2, They played up the fact that by WW2 they were a "Tank Town" - and proud of it - trains generally stopped only to take water at tank Local ladies fed the troops, as there was not much else around the Depot. Last time I was there, they did have a neat little lunch room in the depot - with WW2 era music and 48 star flags. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 19:21:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] When was MS60 really a proxy code? Seems to mean Rick, I was looking at my PRR East-West Passenger Consist Book, and I notice the on a lot of the trains, "MS60" have the letter "X" next to the code meaning "REA Express" Also so note:"all MS60 Express and Paper Cars are to be R50 or X29 type unless otherwise indicated." Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] (PRR) Imperial Models Q2 Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 20:12:27 -0400 Howdy Sam and List: It was a battle, but I found it. The Gear Box Shawn Stevens thegearbox@terragon.com 541-862-2039 I had the chance to talk to Shawn, he remembered my K4s (it wasn't in that bad a shape). He has just completed working on a Q2 - re-motor, DCC, paint and such stuff. I highly recommend him - good communications throughout the project. He does steam and diesel - any scale. Good luck and please let me know how it turns out! Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com.trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Sam Vastano Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 9:01 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] (PRR) Imperial Models Q2 Group, This is a question for the HO modelers out there. I have a bad gearbox in this Q2 Does anyone know a drop in replacement? And while I am at it Should I get a can motor? Thanks for all the help on this. Sam Vastano McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. PH 724-368-8040 X243 Fax 724-368-9677 _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:45:22 -0700 (PDT) From: joe hildenbrand Subject: [PRR] Exton Frieghts & LD trains Hello, Well, I just moved back to the Philadelphia area from Texas. It’s great to be back in the area and have been frequently checking out the area rail scene on a daily basis. Did Amtrak slow their speeds for the Three Rivers and the Pennsylvanian? Both of the eastbound and westbound trains I saw the last week cruised by really slow, even along the big straightaway at Exton and running two hours late. The slow speeds were confirmed when a SEPTA passed by the same location deadheading from Thorndale, it was moving! I noticed the track was in terrible condition. Lot’s of spikes were missing or lifted halfway out, ties were disintegrated, and track #2 around Exton was horrible. Which brings me to the original intent of this message. How frequently is the track used? And when, and how often do the local freights run on the track? I remember seeing some trains traveling from the steel plants in Coatsville to points east. How often do these run and is there a set schedule they follow? Joe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 22:12:38 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] PRR H30a Hi All, I was just experimenting with my new Fuji S602 digital camera. I replaced the previous photo of my recently finished S Scale H30a from my scanner with one taken in my studio setting. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/S_ScaleH30A.jpg This camera is SO much more light sensitive then my film cameras. I have my studio flash turned all the way down. Please give the photo a look. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:16:44 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR-Modeling] When was MS60 really a proxy code? Seems to mean more than X42 A thought. Perhaps the MS60 describes the usage of the car, not the physical car. Some mail cars were locked and sealed at the originating Post Office and delivered to the receiving Post Office still locked. i.e. the car was used for mail storage. Other cars were not sealed and could be used for the delivery and receipt of bagged mail at various stops. Just a though. Garry -----Original Message----- From: Dr. Edmond L. Freed [SMTP:docfoot@bellsouth.net] Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 5:38 PM To: RickTipton@aol.com; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; PRR@egroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR-Modeling] When was MS60 really a proxy code? Seems to mean more than X42 > RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > Hi Eddie, > Thanks for the input. As you show, the ORPTE's do not list class > designations, and so conclusions from there are dependent on deduction. For > example, we have to recognize the ten X42's (when they show up in the ORPTE) > by their numbers (2540-49), and by their fairly unique AAR Mechanical Code > (MR). I've never seen a photo of an X42 where it was identified as an MS60. The > car itself is always lettered X42. But I notice also their description as > "Postal Storage Cars". Rick & Lists- I based my statement on a list that I have developed for the year 1953. The only info I could find on MS60 were the numbers 2540-2549. The 1/53 ORPTE lists these cars as: MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. No other cars on this ORPTE are listed as MR- Postal storage. All of the numbers you have listed are noted as: BE- Baggage-Express-steel. Therefore, I deduced that MS60 was a distinct class. > As late as 1950 I find a note in a New York Division > train consist that 4 series of cars are "Baggage cars equipped with permanent > swinging mail stanchions". The numbers given are B60b's, though not > identified as such there. "Permanent swinging mail stanchions" are the hooks attached to the cars at the doors for mail pickup. I think they were used on RPO's, not on Mail-Storage cars. > In 1950, the consist books call for a large number of MS60 cars. In fact, > #13 alone calls for 15 MS60. I think this alone rules out X42's being all of > the mysterious MS60. OTOH, X42's had to be part of them, as they are not > called out separately in these consists, even though they're known to be > active on these trains. X42 cars were built in 1950. I do not know whether MS60 was used on Baggage cars prior to 1953. It is certainly possible, but as my interest lies in 1953, I have never researched it further. > Eddie, can you identify the source of the line you cite as "my list"? Could > it be indicating that X42 class were part of an MS60 grouping for operations > purposes? I have created a personal list using the cars listed on the 1/53 ORPTE. It includes class, names, numbers, length, paint, trucks & other info. It was compiled from every book I own, info found on web sites & reviewing several thousand e-mail messages. Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO > > With a little more evidence, I'm willing to believe: > 1. MS60 was once a class designation for a B60 variant, but disappeared as a > mechanical department class long ago. > 2. In planning consists (which are issued by the operating department), > post-WW2, the MS60 refers to a number of different cars (including B60 and > X42 and foreign cars that wound up online) that can provide a 60' mail > storage space. > 3. MS60 may or may not refer to B60b's with permanent mail stanchions > (5600-5797, 7435-7439, 9000-9200, 9270-9404). Question: is it just chance > that some B60b's with gold stars (indicating toilet, etc. for express > messenger) fit in these number series? > 4. I'm not sure how pure we can get on this. For example, in a Sept 1953 > consist, #4 carries an MS-60 carrying NEWSWEEK daily from Dayton to New York, > but on Tuesday that car is replaced by two B60's, one of them a sealed car. > Another car in the same train is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh, > and a third is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh ex. Sunday. > > There's a lot we don't know. For example, is MS60 a code for storage of US > mail only? Or would any 60' space (say, for Railway Express) be tagged MS60? > > Judging from the email traffic, this subject is of interest to many. Thanks > to all who contributed info so far... > > Rick Tipton > > In a message dated 6/8/02 7:14:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > docfoot@bellsouth.net writes: > > > Rick & List- > > According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct > > class. > > My list states the following: > > MS60- X-42 -60' Mail Storage Car-Blt.1950- #2540-2549- 2D-F32 > > 1/53 ORPTE lists; > > MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. > > "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(C(.`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`] <```0````0`````P``, 4````+``\.``````(!_P\!````10`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````%!24D!Y86AO;V=R;W5P6%H;V]G`/9?`0```!0```!04E) >6%H;V]G6%H;V]G6%H;V]G6%H;V]G6%H;V]G6%H;V]G6%H;V]G6%H;V]G2!A('!R;WAY M(&-O9&4_("!3965M'D@8V]D93\@(%-E96US('1O(&UE86X@;6]R92!T:&%N(%@T,@`` M```"`7$``0```!8````!PA1W1M0*ZG+!@#01UI<;1$535 `````>`!X,`0`` M``4```!33510`````!X`'PP!````$P```&=S<&5A0"0 M&E #(!I1%V%3OP-P&# `P ,1&E$$('<$D-,8, D`8VL)@" `@`PG@':!;4TU44#IN9!U@`A :L$ 9`"- <\L(8!;P M+A8@=%TM-3> #P9@`C WYS>@:61A>7<:@"WP%B @-E :@ '0,*$1<#4Z,S@7 M@$T[=]14;S?G4AM@:P=@!3 I`B! 80;P+@6@;3OA%X!24BU-!'$@P!5PZ$!Y M81<`;PG "& M`7] T4$?0B]#/T1/15] Y4 294>]+50'0&M 9(TZT'! 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Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Garry Spear Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR-Modeling] When was MS60 really a Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:16:44 -0400 A thought. Perhaps the MS60 describes the usage of the car, not the physical car. Some mail cars were locked and sealed at the originating Post Office and delivered to the receiving Post Office still locked. i.e. the car was used for mail storage. Other cars were not sealed and could be used for the delivery and receipt of bagged mail at various stops. Just a though. Garry -----Original Message----- From: Dr. Edmond L. Freed [SMTP:docfoot@bellsouth.net] Sent: Friday, June 14, 2002 5:38 PM To: RickTipton@aol.com; PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com; PRR@egroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR-Modeling] When was MS60 really a proxy code? Seems to mean more than X42 > RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > Hi Eddie, > Thanks for the input. As you show, the ORPTE's do not list class > designations, and so conclusions from there are dependent on deduction. For > example, we have to recognize the ten X42's (when they show up in the ORPTE) > by their numbers (2540-49), and by their fairly unique AAR Mechanical Code > (MR). I've never seen a photo of an X42 where it was identified as an MS60. The > car itself is always lettered X42. But I notice also their description as > "Postal Storage Cars". Rick & Lists- I based my statement on a list that I have developed for the year 1953. The only info I could find on MS60 were the numbers 2540-2549. The 1/53 ORPTE lists these cars as: MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. No other cars on this ORPTE are listed as MR- Postal storage. All of the numbers you have listed are noted as: BE- Baggage-Express-steel. Therefore, I deduced that MS60 was a distinct class. > As late as 1950 I find a note in a New York Division > train consist that 4 series of cars are "Baggage cars equipped with permanent > swinging mail stanchions". The numbers given are B60b's, though not > identified as such there. "Permanent swinging mail stanchions" are the hooks attached to the cars at the doors for mail pickup. I think they were used on RPO's, not on Mail-Storage cars. > In 1950, the consist books call for a large number of MS60 cars. In fact, > #13 alone calls for 15 MS60. I think this alone rules out X42's being all of > the mysterious MS60. OTOH, X42's had to be part of them, as they are not > called out separately in these consists, even though they're known to be > active on these trains. X42 cars were built in 1950. I do not know whether MS60 was used on Baggage cars prior to 1953. It is certainly possible, but as my interest lies in 1953, I have never researched it further. > Eddie, can you identify the source of the line you cite as "my list"? Could > it be indicating that X42 class were part of an MS60 grouping for operations > purposes? I have created a personal list using the cars listed on the 1/53 ORPTE. It includes class, names, numbers, length, paint, trucks & other info. It was compiled from every book I own, info found on web sites & reviewing several thousand e-mail messages. Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO > > With a little more evidence, I'm willing to believe: > 1. MS60 was once a class designation for a B60 variant, but disappeared as a > mechanical department class long ago. > 2. In planning consists (which are issued by the operating department), > post-WW2, the MS60 refers to a number of different cars (including B60 and > X42 and foreign cars that wound up online) that can provide a 60' mail > storage space. > 3. MS60 may or may not refer to B60b's with permanent mail stanchions > (5600-5797, 7435-7439, 9000-9200, 9270-9404). Question: is it just chance > that some B60b's with gold stars (indicating toilet, etc. for express > messenger) fit in these number series? > 4. I'm not sure how pure we can get on this. For example, in a Sept 1953 > consist, #4 carries an MS-60 carrying NEWSWEEK daily from Dayton to New York, > but on Tuesday that car is replaced by two B60's, one of them a sealed car. > Another car in the same train is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh, > and a third is an MS60 or R50 or B60 daily to Pittsburgh ex. Sunday. > > There's a lot we don't know. For example, is MS60 a code for storage of US > mail only? Or would any 60' space (say, for Railway Express) be tagged MS60? > > Judging from the email traffic, this subject is of interest to many. Thanks > to all who contributed info so far... > > Rick Tipton > > In a message dated 6/8/02 7:14:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > docfoot@bellsouth.net writes: > > > Rick & List- > > According to my records & the 1953 ORPTE, MS60 was a separate, distinct > > class. > > My list states the following: > > MS60- X-42 -60' Mail Storage Car-Blt.1950- #2540-2549- 2D-F32 > > 1/53 ORPTE lists; > > MR- Postal Storage-steel- #2540-2549- 60'- 62'7"- 10 cars. > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Deo18C/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 11:17:02 -0400 How about posting membership information, cost etc., for all of us? Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Lehman" To: "Jerry Britton" ; Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 8:05 PM Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum > Jerry and list > > Andy may have made a mistake. I belive the meetings are open to members > only. The meeting is in October,at least the one I attended and it was > for members only. > > Speaking of membership. I'm curious how many on this list are members? > > I'm a life member of the museum. I visit a dozen plus times a year. I > always toss a couple of bucks in the bucket and pay my admission. What > have you done to support the museum?------Mark L----------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 08:46:48 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR MP54 Info Hi Bruce, In his excellent post, Bruce wrote: > 1) As you may realize, the use of the generic class "MP54" for > electrically powered cars is incorrect. On the PRR, class MP54 were > unpowered coaches without pantographs, propulsion equipment or controls. > When built, these cars received plain bearing trucks (2C-P1) with a 7'0" > wheelbase. 2C-P2 plain journal trucks with an 8'0" wheelbase were applied > at some point. These are early trucks with channel or I-beam sideframes. I believe this is not exactly correct. The class mP54 was the locomotive-hauled coach. Note lower-case "m". Lower-case "m" indicated the car was designed for eventual upgrade to MU operation, but was not presently so equipped. Cars equipped for MU operation all had upper-case letter "M" in the classification, such as MP54e1, etc. This is from the 1931 "Classification of Cars" by the PRR. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 08:46:48 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] When was MS60 really a proxy code? Seems to mean more Hi Rick & list members, In his excellent post, Rick stated: > In other postings, we learn that some B60 cars were once equipped with bag > hooks and designated as MS60's -- but it's said they were redesignated to > B60b's? A minor quibble, but I believe it was stated they were redesignated to B60's, not B60b's. A different car class, that looked very different. Also, the B60b was not built until approx 1925 or so. The first B60, OTOH, was probably built around 1909. - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR MP54 Info From: "mkwb@excite.com" Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 12:01:53 -0400 (EDT) --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__9b57a2bc1061cdf1df1b7ab5a9ec1f75 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Bruce, for your research and information. It will be a great help in planning the kit. Now, can anyone point me in the direction of a drawings source for these trucks, or a source of good close-up photos? Mike Bartel IHP --- On Sat 06/15, Claus Schlund wrote: From: Claus Schlund [mailto: schlund@cwnet.com] To: prr-talk@dsop.com,smithbf@mail.auburn.edu Date: Sat 06/15 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR MP54 Info > Hi Bruce, > > In his excellent post, Bruce wrote: > > > 1) As you may realize, the use of the generic class "MP54" > for > > electrically powered cars is incorrect. On the PRR, class MP54 were > > unpowered coaches without pantographs, propulsion equipment or > controls. > > When built, these cars received plain bearing trucks (2C-P1) with a > 7'0" > > wheelbase. 2C-P2 plain journal trucks with an 8'0" wheelbase > were applied > > at some point. These are early trucks with channel or I-beam > sideframes. > > I believe this is not exactly correct. > > The class mP54 was the locomotive-hauled coach. Note > lower-case "m". Lower-case > "m" indicated the car was designed for eventual upgrade > to MU operation, but was not presently so equipped. > > Cars equipped for MU operation all had upper-case letter "M" > in the classification, such as MP54e1, etc. > > This is from the 1931 "Classification > of Cars" by the PRR. > > - Claus > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ------------------------------------------------ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__9b57a2bc1061cdf1df1b7ab5a9ec1f75 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Bruce, for your research and information. It will be a great help in planning the kit. Now, can anyone point me in the direction of a drawings source for these trucks, or a source of good close-up photos?

Mike Bartel
IHP





--- On Sat 06/15, Claus Schlund < schlund@cwnet.com > wrote:
From: Claus Schlund [mailto: schlund@cwnet.com]
To: prr-talk@dsop.com,smithbf@mail.auburn.edu
Date: Sat 06/15
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR MP54 Info

> Hi Bruce,
>
> In his excellent post, Bruce wrote:
>
> > 1) As you may realize, the use of the generic class "MP54"
> for
> > electrically powered cars is incorrect. On the PRR, class MP54 were
> > unpowered coaches without pantographs, propulsion equipment or
> controls.
> > When built, these cars received plain bearing trucks (2C-P1) with a
> 7'0"
> > wheelbase. 2C-P2 plain journal trucks with an 8'0" wheelbase
> were applied
> > at some point. These are early trucks with channel or I-beam
> sideframes.
>
> I believe this is not exactly correct.
>
> The class mP54 was the locomotive-hauled coach. Note
> lower-case "m". Lower-case
> "m" indicated the car was designed for eventual upgrade
> to MU operation, but was not presently so equipped.
>
> Cars equipped for MU operation all had upper-case letter "M"
> in the classification, such as MP54e1, etc.
>
> This is from the 1931 "Classification
> of Cars" by the PRR.
>
> - Claus
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>

Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web! --EXCITEBOUNDARY_000__9b57a2bc1061cdf1df1b7ab5a9ec1f75-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Speaking of Altoona Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 12:26:14 -0400 I would like to recommend an inexpensive family restaurant in Altoona with excellent food and an operating G scale model train in the non-smoking dining room. It is the R Waffle House, on the street leading in to Altoona at exit 17. The R represents the first initial of four brothers that own and operate the restaurant. The railroad presence is prevalent in the restaurant via artifacts, posters and photos, and the food is excellent. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2002 11:18 AM Subject: [PRR] Speaking of Altoona AND Strasburg > Gentry, > Thanks for the advice and input regarding the Altoona area. I think what'll I do is stay at the Days Inn, seeing as how they have a good central location and offer deep discounts to Federal employees. Thanks too, for the reminder about Hosses' ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 13:26:33 -0400 Question re: Memorial Hall: Remodeling it will require people's time and especially money. How much space (sq.ft.) do the actual displays occupy? Could that space be made available in the main museum buiding to permit moving the Memorial Hall display to the same building as the rest of the museum? This would save the cost of remodeling (which could be applied to other projects), and perhaps the Memorial Hall building could be sold, leased, or rented to rais additional funds. I still have not received a reply to my question of whether money donations to the museum are tax deductible. My gift (and hopefully corporate match) are waiting for that information. Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 15:47:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum Membership. For Lew and those interested in membership here is what I have. This is from 2001 so it may have changed. You may want to call to confirm the prices.814-946-0834 Individual-25$ Senior-20$ Student-10$ Family-60$ Educator-20$ Railfan-150$ Lots of goodies with this one! Lifetime-500$ Contributor-1000$ HS Curve-5$ this may be a misprint. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 16:09:35 EDT Subject: [PRR] HO GG-1 --part1_3d.1fc32c8c.2a3cf8ff_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, I am considering a brass GG-1 in HO scale. I am not a collector preferring to operate models in a prototypical manner. The goal is modeling a prototypical length Congressional. What is the best performing model to date, or if none are good runners, then which is the best candidate for rework?? Repowering and regearing are not a concern; the performance (tracking) of the articulated running gear is. Also, is there still a commercial source of prototypical catenary towers that would span three to four tracks? There was a source back in the 80 's early 90's time frame but do not recall the name. Many thanks in advance, Evan Leisey --part1_3d.1fc32c8c.2a3cf8ff_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List,

 I am considering a brass GG-1 in HO scale.  I am not a collector preferring to operate models in a prototypical manner.  The goal is modeling a prototypical length Congressional.

 What is the best performing model to date,  or if none are good runners, then which is the best candidate for rework??  Repowering and regearing are not a concern; the performance (tracking) of the articulated running gear is.

 Also,  is there still a commercial source of prototypical catenary towers that would span three to four tracks?  There was a source back in the 80 's early 90's time frame but do not recall the name.

 Many thanks in advance,

 Evan Leisey --part1_3d.1fc32c8c.2a3cf8ff_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 19:39:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] HO GG-1 A company called" Model Memories" makes PRR style cat poles. Not sure if they still make catenary. Email:modelmemor@aol.com. Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 21:17:43 -0400 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Some museum observations --On Wednesday, June 12, 2002 14:39 -0400 Jerry Britton wrote: > Another observation... > > ... The > site at Strasburg was selected for the railroad museum based on other > tourist attractions in the area. > This is a good point. It all had to do with potential vistorship. Strasburg is on the fringe of the Wash-Balto-Philly-NYC megalopolis. Altoona is off of the map of the known world, as far as the casual tourist from Megalopolis is concerned. And that's today! "Back then" there was no Bud Shuster Highway or four-lane US 22. Lest we forget, there was at least one other candidate for the RRMofPA: Mount Union (or have we forgotten that narrow gauge railroads were plentiful in this state?). Mt. Union is STILL a bear to get to. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 19:58:00 -0700 (PDT) From: andy mulhollen Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. Prices Greetings to the list, I have seen some questions about the pricing structure of admissions and memberships. They were correctly posted by one member but these will be changing in the near future. The marketing committee is restructuring the fee schedule to be more attractive. I dont have any final numbers yet but when I do I will post them. I can tell you that a Blair County Family Combo Pack is going to be offered soon. It will consist of 4 Adult Combo passes (Museum and HSC) for $10. Additional tickets at $3 per person. All the buyer has to do is show he is from Blair county. That is a pretty good deal and is meant to get the local folks out to the museum. Many of them have never been here and we understand that pricing is an issue to the local folks. This is a pilot program and is for a "limited time" whatever that may be. It may be altered or extended other groups depending on the response. That has yet to be seen. Comments on this are welcome. I continue to plug away at getting Railfest together and have recieved some great ideas from List Members. Thanks again for your support Dr Andy Mulhollen Secretary Executive Committee Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] HO GG-1 Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 00:24:40 -0400 Their web site is: http://www.info-4u.com/modelmemories/ Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of zootowerprr@webtv.net Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 7:40 PM To: RDG2124@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] HO GG-1 A company called" Model Memories" makes PRR style cat poles. Not sure if they still make catenary. Email:modelmemor@aol.com. Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 07:10:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Andrews Subject: [PRR] Altoona museum Re: the subject of Altoona being off the beaten path: Whenever possible, on our trips from eastern PA to Pittsburgh to see the Pirates play, we try to stop in Altoona, go to the museum, the curve and whatever else we have time for. We couldn't help but notice that it's almost impossible to get a motel room on weekends that Penn State is playing a home game. My point is that people will come to an area no matter how "remote" if you give them a good enough reason. Joe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 10:34:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum Bill writes,,, << I still have not received a reply to my question of whether money donations to the museum are tax deductible. >> I would also be interested in more information on donations and where exactly they are to be send so I can pass it along to some interested parties in the Southwest who are not connected to a computer. Also the membership information as well. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. Prices Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 11:09:54 -0400 Andy and List, Re: Railfest: The features that keep me coming back (and would continue to), are shop tours and excursions. If we ever get to the point where 1361 might lead an excursion (WOW!) I'd not only come myself, I'd bring everyone I possibly could, even to the point of chartering buses. Note I would both ride the train(s) and photograph from trackside. Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "andy mulhollen" To: "prr talk" Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 10:58 PM Subject: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. Prices > Greetings to the list, > I have seen some questions about the pricing > structure of admissions and memberships. They were > correctly posted by one member but these will be > changing in the near future. The marketing committee > is restructuring the fee schedule to be more > attractive. I dont have any final numbers yet but when > I do I will post them. > I can tell you that a Blair County Family Combo > Pack is going to be offered soon. It will consist of > 4 Adult Combo passes (Museum and HSC) for $10. > Additional tickets at $3 per person. All the buyer has > to do is show he is from Blair county. That is a > pretty good deal and is meant to get the local folks > out to the museum. Many of them have never been here > and we understand that pricing is an issue to the > local folks. This is a pilot program and is for a > "limited time" whatever that may be. It may be altered > or extended other groups depending on the response. > That has yet to be seen. Comments on this are > welcome. > I continue to plug away at getting Railfest > together and have recieved some great ideas from List > Members. > Thanks again for your support > Dr Andy Mulhollen > Secretary > Executive Committee > Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 11:19:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] 1361 List, The mention of 1361 made me think for a second. I couldn't remember if this happened or not. Since the restoration of the K back in 1985-1986, has the 1361 ever snuck a trip up Horseshoe during any of its excursions/test runs of that time period? I can't remember ever seeing any pics.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MarkCFry@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 12:15:59 EDT Subject: [PRR] Tender for Wreck Train service --part1_5f.28fde55c.2a3e13bf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List; I am in the process of assembling the components needed for modeling a PRR Wreck train in HO scale. One item I still need is a tender for the crane. I am using the Tichy crane and I understand there were specific tenders used for this service, but I do not know what there were. If someone could provide some insight on specifically the type of tender(s) used and why these were used, it would be very helpful. Also, does anyone know of any HO scale sources for these type(s) of acceptable tenders? Thanks in advance! Mark Frysztacki --part1_5f.28fde55c.2a3e13bf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List;

I am in the process of assembling the components needed for modeling a PRR Wreck train in HO scale.  One item I still need is a tender for the crane.  I am using the Tichy crane and I understand there were specific tenders used for this service, but I do not know what there were.  

If someone could provide some insight on specifically the type of tender(s) used and why these were used, it would be very helpful.  Also, does anyone know of any HO scale sources for these type(s) of acceptable tenders?

Thanks in advance!

Mark Frysztacki --part1_5f.28fde55c.2a3e13bf_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 12:47:48 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender for Wreck Train service In a message dated 6/16/02 11:19:05 AM Central Daylight Time, MarkCFry@aol.com writes: << Also, does anyone know of any HO scale sources for these type(s) of acceptable tenders? >> A Bowser tender could be used, which one depending on era. I don't know if any of the tenders off the Bachmann K4 have ever been used. I'd sure like to know if they were as I have so many in the scrap bin, along with their accompanying locos. Both of the above raise a question. Am I wrong in assuming that these tenders were used for water only and that the small amount of coal involved (I believe some cranes also had oil-fueled boilers) would be carried on the crane? If so, to be correct one would have to fabricate an empty tender coal bin interior, a pretty substantial project on a Bowser metal tender. Actually, even if the tender carried coal, it would be so little, you would still have to fabricate an interior. I'd appreciate any information from the list commenting on the above. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 13:02:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum. Prices Bill & List, 1361 leading an excursion around Horseshoe Curve! WOW is right! Standing room only in the city of Altoona. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] 1361 Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 16:49:54 -0400 Not that I'm aware of, but at my age it would be good if someone else could confirm. Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 11:19 AM Subject: [PRR] 1361 > List, > > The mention of 1361 made me think for a second. I couldn't remember > if this happened or not. Since the restoration of the K back in > 1985-1986, has the 1361 ever snuck a trip up Horseshoe during any of its > excursions/test runs of that time period? I can't remember ever seeing > any pics.....Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 19:05:20 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Photo track Hi All, I had many nice emails commenting on my S Scale H30a. Thanks to all of you. I thought I would share with you my S Scale photo track that made it possible. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/PhotoTrack.jpg I made a hand laid single track 3 ' long. I used tie plates, splicer bars and almost 800 spikes in that length. The one side is a continuous scene. The other is 3 small scenes about 1' long. It is elevated 4 inches to look like an embankment because I like the photo view that is looking slightly upward to the car. http://www.pennsysmodels.com/px29side-2_small.jpg Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 19:54:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Photo track Hey Bill, That Photo track looks great. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 22:17:00 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Various Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum questions/issues Greetings to Bill and the List: William Bigler wrote: > > I still have not received a reply to my question of whether money donations to the museum are tax deductible. My gift (and hopefully corporate match) are waiting for that information. The museum holds IRS 501(c)3 designation, meaning that yes, contributions are tex-deductible. If you need verification to provide to your employer for a matching grant, contact the museum at 814-946-0834 or director@railroadcity.com. Also, in response to a different thread: Engine 1361 has never returned to the Curve since the day in September 1985 when it was removed from its perch up there. ARMM board member Andy Mulhollen has posted a request for ideas for activities for Railfest. Please take his request seriously. With NS about to close down Sam Rea Shops and the highly charged political/public debate that's been swirling for months around that proposal (and now, actual decision), it's both unlikely and unrealistic to think that the railroad will allow a shop tour this year. The shakeout is that, absent that, the museum needs other attractions to draw people. No idea is too far-ranging or outrageous to at least suggest, so let him hear from you. Dan Cupper occasional consultant to ARMM & board member emeritus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 21:50:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] HO Tender for Wreck Train service Mark, list, PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment, Volume 3 has a couple of good shots of former 90F82 and former 210F75 tenders in work train service. The 90F82 was used behind I1sa engines, while the 210F75 was used with M1 engines. Trainstuff LLC has a resin kit for the 90F82. As a stand in, you could modify a USRA tender (currently sold separately by Bowser in zinc and Athearn in plastic and also available, albeit with locomotives, from Rivarossi, Bachmann, and IHC) by changing the steps and adding a front coupler for starters. The 210F75s in work train service were much less common; the Bowser coast to coast tender is a starting point in zinc; it's the only non-brass 210F75 that I know of. PRR may have used other types of tenders in work train service; fellow listers, please pipe up if you know of them! Doug --- MarkCFry@aol.com wrote, in part: One item I still need is a tender for the crane. I > am using the Tichy crane and I understand there were > specific tenders used for this service,... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TJ LInk" Subject: [PRR] Juniata Shops Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 06:34:29 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C215C9.088467A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List: Out here on Lines West I've been hearing that Norfolk & Southern = wants to close down the Juniata Shops. Is this true? I realize that = these are redundantly close to their Roanoke shops. From this list, = I've gathered that they have, or will, close the Samuel Rea shops in = Hollidaysburg. The information I have about Juniata comes from a former = NS (Conrail before that, PC before them both) employee who retired two = years ago. Can anyone take a stab at this? Thank You Matt Link PRR T&HS #7120 Vice President, Crestline Roundhouse Preservation Society PRR in Crestline, 1946 - HO scale (forthcoming) ------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C215C9.088467A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
List:
        Out here on Lines West I've = been=20 hearing that Norfolk & Southern wants to close down the Juniata = Shops. Is=20 this true?  I realize that these are redundantly close to their = Roanoke=20 shops.  From this list, I've gathered that they have, or will, = close the=20 Samuel Rea shops in Hollidaysburg.  The information I have about = Juniata=20 comes from a former NS (Conrail before that, PC before them both) = employee who=20 retired two years ago.  Can anyone take a stab at this?  Thank = You
 
Matt Link
PRR T&HS #7120
Vice President, Crestline Roundhouse Preservation Society
PRR in Crestline, 1946 - HO scale = (forthcoming)
------=_NextPart_000_0014_01C215C9.088467A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 07:20:38 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/17/02 In the late 70's I was called by a friend from the South Penn Model reailroad club in Lancaster to "drop whatever you're doing, grab a camera, and get to the Lancaster passenger station. There's been a wreck." I did what he said and got there in about 1/2 hour from Lebanon, Pa. I found the tracks clogged with ballast, twisted orange hopper cars, two orange "Great Pumpkin" EMD Geeps, and two PC wreck trains working under the cat from both ends. One was just arriving from Philadelphia powered by a black PC RS-3. I was able to watch two skilled crane operators work beneath the wire as gracefully as a Maestro conducting the London Symphony Orchestra. Both cranes were steam powered and the wreck trains had tenders for each crane. they appeared to be K4 or L1 tenders, painted yellow, and Pennsylvania still on their sides. If I had the capability to scan the slides I took, I would post them. The tender on the Phila-based train had no coal in the bunker. I'm not sure if the crain was oil fired or coal. Regards, Nick Kulp Subject: HO Tender for Wreck Train service From: "Doug Kisala" Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 21:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Mark, list, PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment, Volume 3 has a couple of good shots of former 90F82 and former 210F75 tenders in work train service. The 90F82 was used behind I1sa engines, while the 210F75 was used with M1 engines. Trainstuff LLC has a resin kit for the 90F82. As a stand in, you could modify a USRA tender (currently sold separately by Bowser in zinc and Athearn in plastic and also available, albeit with locomotives, from Rivarossi, Bachmann, and IHC) by changing the steps and adding a front coupler for starters. The 210F75s in work train service were much less common; the Bowser coast to coast tender is a starting point in zinc; it's the only non-brass 210F75 that I know of. PRR may have used other types of tenders in work train service; fellow listers, please pipe up if you know of them! Doug http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 07:58:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Juniata Shops From: Jerry Britton On 6/17/02 6:34 AM, TJ LInk (chef@richnet.net) wrote: > Out here on Lines West I've been hearing that Norfolk & Southern wants > to close down the Juniata Shops. Is this true? I realize that these are > redundantly close to their Roanoke shops. From this list, I've gathered that > they have, or will, close the Samuel Rea shops in Hollidaysburg. The > information I have about Juniata comes from a former NS (Conrail before that, > PC before them both) employee who retired two years ago. Can anyone take a > stab at this? Thank You > Old news. Keeping the shops open was one of the "unwritten deals" NS agreed to in order to have the merger approved. About a year after the merger they tried to close the shops but came under fire and backed off. Then the representative from Blair county (?) retired and NS pressed again, unchallenged. The current closure announcement came just before RailFest last year, if I recall. All but a done deal. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:42:35 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender for Wreck Train service >In a message dated 6/16/02 11:19:05 AM Central Daylight Time, >MarkCFry@aol.com writes: << Also, does anyone > know of any HO scale sources for these type(s) of acceptable tenders? >> > Bob replies: >Both of the above raise a question. Am I wrong in assuming that these >tenders were used for water only and that the small amount of coal involved >(I believe some cranes also had oil-fueled boilers) would be carried on the >crane? If so, to be correct one would have to fabricate an empty tender >coal bin interior, a pretty substantial project on a Bowser metal tender. >Actually, even if the tender carried coal, it would be so little, you would >still have to fabricate an interior. Okay, first, a true SPF calls them "derricks", not cranes . And, the steam fired ones did have coal bunkers, yes, but these did not carry enough coal for long jobs, and so when the derrick was coal fired, the coal bunker often remained in service on the tender. When the coal fired cranes were converted to oil, the tender bunker was converted as well. Photos of both are in the Pennsy color guides 1 & 2. For the Tichy 120 ton derrick the tender could be class 90F75 (from an L1s, Bowser) or the Trainstuff 90F82. Whatever you do, do NOT use the Tichy boom car! Use a class FM flat (Sunshine) or GR (F&C) or GRA (Westerfield) gon. Since you are using this derrick, the most appropriate camp cars are tool car, cable car, riding/locker car, commissary car, and your email came just I was starting to assemble mine! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:52:11 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO GG-1 Evan asks: >List, I am considering a brass GG-1 in HO scale. I am not a collector >preferring to operate models in a prototypical manner. The goal is >modeling a prototypical length Congressional. What is the best >performing model to date, or if none are good runners, then which is the >best candidate for rework?? Evan, The Precision Scale GG-1 of a few years ago (6-8 IIRC) was pretty nice. The drive train runs faily reliably, although mine had a short in it that I have to fix (still ). I felt the the detail for the price was good. These are running in the $450-$500 range right now. I did notice that a number had only so-so paint jobs when released, but my 4800 looks spot on. As has been noted, Model Memories catenary is very accurate, but when looking to build a layout's worth, you'd better be RICH! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:55:59 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR]PRR MP54 Info Claus sez: >The class mP54 was the locomotive-hauled coach. Note >lower-case "m". Lower-case >"m" indicated the car was designed for eventual upgrade >to MU operation, but was not presently so equipped. > >Cars equipped for MU operation all had upper-case letter "M" >in the classification, such as MP54e1, etc. > >This is from the 1931 "Classification >of Cars" by the PRR. Claus, Thanks for that note! Secondary sources, notorious for their ability to alter history, fail to use that designation . I will assume that the conversion of mP54 coaches to MP54T trailers also resulted in the change of case in the class designation, as these cars did have full controls for multiple unit running... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] HO GG-1 Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 10:08:26 -0400 I have a Precision Scale GG-1 4800. It acts like its geared for drag freight service. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 9:52 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] HO GG-1 Evan asks: >List, I am considering a brass GG-1 in HO scale. I am not a collector >preferring to operate models in a prototypical manner. The goal is >modeling a prototypical length Congressional. What is the best >performing model to date, or if none are good runners, then which is the >best candidate for rework?? Evan, The Precision Scale GG-1 of a few years ago (6-8 IIRC) was pretty nice. The drive train runs faily reliably, although mine had a short in it that I have to fix (still ). I felt the the detail for the price was good. These are running in the $450-$500 range right now. I did notice that a number had only so-so paint jobs when released, but my 4800 looks spot on. As has been noted, Model Memories catenary is very accurate, but when looking to build a layout's worth, you'd better be RICH! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: howdy@qnet.com Subject: [PRR] 1522 to cease operation Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:15:29 GMT Good morning list, Sorry this is not PRR related, but I thought I would send it along anyway. If you go this year, you can still see and ride behind the last of the breed. - Howdy SLSTA PRESS RELEASE On Wednesday, June 12, 2002, the St. Louis Steam Train Association Board of Directors met in a special Board meeting to assess the current situation and future prospects for continued operations of locomotive SLSF 1522. The Board decided that this would be the last season of operations for the 1522 by the SLSTA. The SLSTA is an all-volunteer, not-for-profit organization established in 1986 to restore, maintain, and operate the engine. Over the past 14 years, the engine has traveled extensively across the heartland of the US, including representing Burlington Northern Santa Fe, the successor to the St. Louis-San Francisco (Frisco) Railroad, which ordered the locomotive from the Baldwin Locomotive Company in 1926. The 1522 is one of the oldest main line operating steam locomotives in the country, and the only current example of a "Mountain" type 4-8-2 wheel arrangement in operation. The action of the Board was in response to the spiraling costs of insurance, the limited accessibility to major railroad mainlines for excursions, required work on the engine to comply with newly enacted Federal boiler regulations, and the volunteer nature of the SLSTA's membership. "No matter how hard we try, how much our group wants to continue operating the engine, or how businesslike we attempt to run our organization, the simple fact is we can no longer sustain the economic requirements for operating and maintaining this remarkable piece of equipment in today's world," said Robert C. Meier, President of the SLSTA. The 1522 is owned by St. Louis County and is a part of the collection of railroad artifacts of the Museum of Transportation. The engine and other rolling stock are leased by SLSTA from the County. SLSTA commenced rehabilitation of the engine in 1985, and has operated it on major railroads throughout the Midwest since 1988. Last year the 1522 was the motive power on BNSF's Employee Appreciation Special, running over 4000 miles from St. Louis through Missouri, Oklahoma, Texas and Kansas. The engine also ran an excursion for the National Railway Historical Society national convention. After fifteen years of service, the Museum of Transportation's operating steam locomotive and ambassador artifact, Frisco 1522 will be featured as a major exhibit at the Museum in 2003. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 10:46:33 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Various Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum Andy et.al.: Is it out of the question to arrange one or more trips to Lock Haven. I am thinking that a joint venture with the NIttany & Bald Eagle may be possible using the RDCs. Since the Nittany & BE has given NS running rights over its tracks, perhaps a short term grant of running rights to the N&BE for Railfest may be doable. If Lock Have is out of the question, perhaps only going to Belfonte is workable. The historically society runs the RDCs during the summer on weekends between Tyrone and Bellfonte so all that would be needed is running rights to Altoona and insurance. A further expansion of this idea would be to use passenger cars pulled by N&BE locomoitves. I know similar excursions have been run as Amtrak extras to decrease the cost of the insurance. Just a thought. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 13:10:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender for Wreck Train service In a message dated 6/17/02 10:32:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << Okay, first, a true SPF calls them "derricks", not cranes >> The Tichey model is a 100 ton "crane" copied by MTH in "O" scale. I believe that only the larger "cranes" (200-250 Ton - like the Athearn model were called "Derricks" Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 13:29:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender for Wreck Train service Guys, I always heard them called "Derricks" in railroad lingo. I will have to check out that old video of the Red Arrow Wreck. (I will get back on that) It was a PRR Film of the recovery and they had script included with the scenes. I believe they used the term "Steam Derricks" but will check. There were 5 or 6 120-150 ton "Derricks" there for the retreival of the K's. Now another term to throw out there is the word "Wreckers" Hmmm, is that a more modern term? Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:31:09 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender for Wreck Train service Dick, Well, we both are wrong! I thought that the cut-off was around 10-15 tons or less for cranes vs derricks. When I looked at Rob's pages at http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/ I noticed that on the PRR tracings, derricks of 50, 100, 120, 150, 200, 250 tons are called "wrecking cranes"...oh well! AFAIK, the Tichy model is called a "120 ton Brownhoist Crane". Based on my comparison to photos, like the ones in the Color Guides and a great shot on George Elwood's site (that has shut down) http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/prr/prr497013alb.jpg , these are very very close for PRR 120 ton "wrecking cranes" Happy Rails Bruce >In a message dated 6/17/02 10:32:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > ><< Okay, first, a true SPF calls them "derricks", not cranes >> > >The Tichey model is a 100 ton "crane" copied by MTH in "O" scale. > >I believe that only the larger "cranes" (200-250 Ton - like the Athearn model >were called "Derricks" > >Dick Ross Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 10:32:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Benjamin Sullivan Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/12/02 These historical landmarks don't just pay for themselves, in most instances. If you have to pay a few bucks to ride a tram, consider it a donation to be able to actually access the area. The grass doesn't mow itself. The trees don't trim themselves. The fences don't paint themselves... Most US National Parks charge access fees to help pay the costs. It's simple. I consider it a privilege to access these places (historical or natural signifigance), and paying a fee is something I do gladly. I live near Washington DC, so I am no stranger to free museums and parks - we have some of the best in the world here. But, I will say, take a look around at MOST of the nation's historical landmarks. Quite a few of them are nothing more than overgrown patches of scrub brush and a pile of stones and a plaque on a sign post if you are lucky. Sure, visiting these places can elicit an unparalleled nostalgia for the fan (I have shed tears walking through Mount Union Yard on the East Broad Top, imagining the place 60 years ago), and can provide incredible resources for historical purposes (measuring building foundations, etc). Be thankful that there even *is* a "Horseshoe Curve" site that you can access and view (albeit there are issues - discussed in earlier PRR Talk posts) trains passing today. I have not yet visited the Curve or Altoona (they're on my list, now that my wedding is past!) so I can not attest to their condition personally. I'm just thankful that when I do go, I'm not climbing a dirt path through 50-foot-high trees and scrub brush, up some dirt trail to a heavily wooded viewing area akin to most railroad right-of-way. Dealing with the change and loss of these treasures is a VERY tough issue. Ben Sullivan PRRT&HS 6998 > Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? > From: "Nick Kulp" > Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:42:59 -0400 > > As a person that has not visited the museum as of yet, I cannot comment on > the > condition or lack of merchandise in the gift shop but I had visited the > museum > in 1991. It was small at the time but worth seeing. > > My biggest disappointment is the loss of the steps to Horseshoe Curve. I've > only visited the Curve twice in my life but the visits were memorable. Once > was before the 1361 was removed from the curve. It broke my heart to see a > representative > of the Glory Years of the PRR in such a state of disrepair. The engine was > filthy, > rusty, without a number plate, bell, or whistle. The second time was a few > years > later after the dismal replaced the K4. Both times I was honored to walk the > slabs of stone that made up the "stairway to heavan". From info provided by > other friends that have visited the Curve, the stairs are no longer accesable > or have been removed. I don't konw if the info is correct but I was also told > that there is now a fee to use the only method of access to the Curve, the > tram. > I readily admit that I am not a financial wizard or even remotely > knowledgable > about such things but why force people to pay for access to a great > historical > landmark. It's almost like charging a fee to visit the Gettysburg > battlefields. > One of my vacation trips for this year was to return to visit the Curve and > the Museum. But if I cannot walk to the curve, I probably will only drive > below > the curve on the road and not ride the tram. Something has been lost to > provide > an unnecessary expense to people that simply do not want it. > > Whoever decided to remove the stone horseshoe at the curve should be pummeled > with the stones. They represented a symbolic tribute to one of the world's > engineering > marvels. If they were in the way of the "upgrade", they should have been > relocated, > not thrown in the trash.Every photo and postcard of the PRR on the Curve > showed > that horseshoe. Now it's gone. > > I sincerely hope that the Museum will overcome this problem before we lose > something > that can never be replaced. > > BTW, I had the honor of speaking to Don Ball shortly before he passed away > about > the Steamtown relocation. He had dropped out of the committee for the project > when the "politicians" that had no idea about how a railroad attraction > should > be built started their usual antics. The project lost a great resource for > information > and history because the politicians wanted to maintain their fifedoms. There > was a wealth of American Steam equipment that could have been placed there > but > instead we now own a great deal of Canadian steam power with very little USA > representation. He spoke of ex N&W power as well as a possibility of some > Southern > equipment. Grey and maroon have never been my favorite colors. > > Regards, > Nick Kulp __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 13:48:39 -0400 Subject: George Elwood's Site (Was Re: [PRR] Tender for Wreck From: Jerry Britton On 6/17/02 1:31 PM, Bruce F. Smith (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > AFAIK, the Tichy model is called a "120 ton Brownhoist Crane". Based on my > comparison to photos, like the ones in the Color Guides and a great shot on > George Elwood's site (that has shut down) > http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/prr/prr497013alb.jpg , these are very very > close for PRR 120 ton "wrecking cranes" > I didn't realize George's site had gone off the air. Interesting reading the ISP's (railfan.net) vs. George's versions of the story. George is currently soliciting donations to pay for the costs of bringing the site in-house. Boy is he in for a shock...seems to think ordering and paying for a line is all there is to it! He'll need to learn to maintain a web server (not just pages) plus the in's and out's of domain name service. Hopefully he can pull it off. He has quite a collection. Unfortunately, the donation model simply does not work...although it may take him a year or two to learn that. Been there, done that! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 14:07:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender for Wreck Train service Guys, Just viewed that short PRR Movie I have on video. Again, this is the retreival work of the 2 K4's from the Red Arrow wreck. The script included at the begining of the tape uses the words: "2 150 Ton Derricks and 2 250 Ton Derricks" used for the work. Also on this short video tape is the retreival work of the J1a that derailed 2 miles east of Horseshoe Curve in the 1940's. Again the movie used the word "Derricks". It appears that 5-6 120 tonners did the work here. Being these were PRR made Movies from the Test Dept., the term "Derricks" must have been what was used on the Pennsy, at least during the time period these films were made.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/12/02 Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 18:10:11 +0000 Most US National Parks charge > access fees to help pay the costs Actually tax dollars pay the bulk. The fees are just to limit people from coming who really haven't made up their minds. I am no stranger to free museums and parks - we > have some of the best in the world here Once again you don't have free parks. ALl of us in the country who never even get to see them are picking up your tab through their "donations". > These historical landmarks don't just pay for themselves, in most instances. If > you have to pay a few bucks to ride a tram, consider it a donation to be able > to actually access the area. The grass doesn't mow itself. The trees don't trim > themselves. The fences don't paint themselves... Most US National Parks charge > access fees to help pay the costs. It's simple. I consider it a privilege to > access these places (historical or natural signifigance), and paying a fee is > something I do gladly. > > I live near Washington DC, so I am no stranger to free museums and parks - we > have some of the best in the world here. But, I will say, take a look around at > MOST of the nation's historical landmarks. Quite a few of them are nothing more > than overgrown patches of scrub brush and a pile of stones and a plaque on a > sign post if you are lucky. Sure, visiting these places can elicit an > unparalleled nostalgia for the fan (I have shed tears walking through Mount > Union Yard on the East Broad Top, imagining the place 60 years ago), and can > provide incredible resources for historical purposes (measuring building > foundations, etc). > > Be thankful that there even *is* a "Horseshoe Curve" site that you can access > and view (albeit there are issues - discussed in earlier PRR Talk posts) trains > passing today. I have not yet visited the Curve or Altoona (they're on my list, > now that my wedding is past!) so I can not attest to their condition > personally. I'm just thankful that when I do go, I'm not climbing a dirt path > through 50-foot-high trees and scrub brush, up some dirt trail to a heavily > wooded viewing area akin to most railroad right-of-way. Dealing with the change > and loss of these treasures is a VERY tough issue. > > Ben Sullivan > PRRT&HS 6998 > > > Subject: Re: [PRR] ALTOONA: A MUSEUM TO FAR? > > From: "Nick Kulp" > > Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:42:59 -0400 > > > > As a person that has not visited the museum as of yet, I cannot comment on > > the > > condition or lack of merchandise in the gift shop but I had visited the > > museum > > in 1991. It was small at the time but worth seeing. > > > > My biggest disappointment is the loss of the steps to Horseshoe Curve. I've > > only visited the Curve twice in my life but the visits were memorable. Once > > was before the 1361 was removed from the curve. It broke my heart to see a > > representative > > of the Glory Years of the PRR in such a state of disrepair. The engine was > > filthy, > > rusty, without a number plate, bell, or whistle. The second time was a few > > years > > later after the dismal replaced the K4. Both times I was honored to walk the > > slabs of stone that made up the "stairway to heavan". From info provided by > > other friends that have visited the Curve, the stairs are no longer accesable > > or have been removed. I don't konw if the info is correct but I was also told > > that there is now a fee to use the only method of access to the Curve, the > > tram. > > I readily admit that I am not a financial wizard or even remotely > > knowledgable > > about such things but why force people to pay for access to a great > > historical > > landmark. It's almost like charging a fee to visit the Gettysburg > > battlefields. > > One of my vacation trips for this year was to return to visit the Curve and > > the Museum. But if I cannot walk to the curve, I probably will only drive > > below > > the curve on the road and not ride the tram. Something has been lost to > > provide > > an unnecessary expense to people that simply do not want it. > > > > Whoever decided to remove the stone horseshoe at the curve should be pummeled > > with the stones. They represented a symbolic tribute to one of the world's > > engineering > > marvels. If they were in the way of the "upgrade", they should have been > > relocated, > > not thrown in the trash.Every photo and postcard of the PRR on the Curve > > showed > > that horseshoe. Now it's gone. > > > > I sincerely hope that the Museum will overcome this problem before we lose > > something > > that can never be replaced. > > > > BTW, I had the honor of speaking to Don Ball shortly before he passed away > > about > > the Steamtown relocation. He had dropped out of the committee for the project > > when the "politicians" that had no idea about how a railroad attraction > > should > > be built started their usual antics. The project lost a great resource for > > information > > and history because the politicians wanted to maintain their fifedoms. There > > was a wealth of American Steam equipment that could have been placed there > > but > > instead we now own a great deal of Canadian steam power with very little USA > > representation. He spoke of ex N&W power as well as a possibility of some > > Southern > > equipment. Grey and maroon have never been my favorite colors. > > > > Regards, > > Nick Kulp > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] (PRR ) Imperial Models Q2 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 08:01:07 -0400 Group, Just to let you know I have fixed the gearbox on this loco. I had worn areas where it rode on the axel. I used brass sheet and soldered pieces in and used the dremel to recreate the opening and all is fine now. Thanks for all the input!!!! Sam Vastano McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. PH 724-368-8040 X243 Fax 724-368-9677 _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 08:41:42 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Cranes vs. Derricks This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_ozu74fkVOaNtiKY5qyvw2A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Mark and other PRR wreck train, derrick and crane fans, The crane vs. derrick terminology on the PRR is interesting. When looking at the equipment diagrams there are generally two designations for on-track equipment outfitted with booms for lifting, etc. The terms are "crane" (with its lifting capacity indicated and usually modified by the additional words - locomotive, gasoline, oil burning, etc) and "wrecking crane" (with its lifting capacity indicated - although I have one diagram labeled - "50 ton Steam Derrick"). Usually anything with a lifting capacity over 25 tons was referred to in the field as a derrick (mostly 50, 100, 120, 150 and 200 ton), anything below was a crane, even though the official configuration tracings referred to them as wrecking cranes. Typically derricks were used in wreck service while cranes were used for MW work. Also I believe many of the wrecking cranes remained as steam powered until the end. Then of course there was the crawler crane equipment (in MW service) which Bruce Smith commented on the other day (and to which I don't believe any replies were given), which I have not forgotten and hopefully will comment on soon. And of course the smaller capacity Burro crane type equipment also in MW service. Al --Boundary_(ID_ozu74fkVOaNtiKY5qyvw2A) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Mark and other PRR wreck train, derrick and crane fans,
 
The crane vs. derrick terminology on the PRR is interesting. When looking at the equipment diagrams there are generally two designations for on-track equipment outfitted with booms for lifting, etc. The terms are "crane" (with its lifting capacity indicated and usually modified by the additional words - locomotive, gasoline, oil burning, etc) and "wrecking crane" (with its lifting capacity indicated - although I have one diagram labeled - "50 ton Steam Derrick").
 
Usually anything with a lifting capacity over 25 tons was referred to in the field as a derrick (mostly 50, 100, 120, 150 and 200 ton), anything below was a crane, even though the official configuration tracings referred to them as wrecking cranes. Typically derricks were used in wreck service while cranes were used for MW work.
 
Also I believe many of the wrecking cranes remained as steam powered until the end.
 
Then of course there was the crawler crane equipment (in MW service) which Bruce Smith commented on the other day (and to which I don't believe any replies were given), which I have not forgotten and hopefully will comment on soon. And of course the smaller capacity Burro crane type equipment also in MW service.
 
Al
 
 
--Boundary_(ID_ozu74fkVOaNtiKY5qyvw2A)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] PBS show on Streamliners Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 13:02:18 +0000 The Gary Indiana PBS station had a two hour back to back presentation called Streamliner on the American Experience last night. My reception of this in Chicago was such that it was barely visible but it ran the gamut from the Zephyrs through the post war trains. There was at least one shot of a G in the presentation calling it part of the post war modernization. The films of the name trains was excellent from the lttle I could see of it. Is this an old or a new show? Highly worth asking your PBS station to run it if you haven't seen it. norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 09:26:28 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] PBS show on Streamliners Two hours? The American Experience/Streamliners segment runs an hour, unless they patched it together with something else? Or ran in pledge breaks? (Or I'm confused....) Indeed, some good visuals. Some minor technical quibbles, IIR. PBS reran it a week or so ago, nationwide. I believe it first ran last fall. Available for purchase for US$19.98 from www.npr.org and navigate down to the sales/american experience tapes. (I won't even TRY to do the direct link....) (as to placing the GG1 in post war: Weirdest guest appearance of a GG1 is in a History Channel segment on Hitler (ok: lot of those...). They are rambling on about Hitler traveling around Germany and cut to: A grainy PRR (or newsreel?) Publicity movie of a GG1 pacing a streamlined steamer... Apparently shot from a low flying plane...) ndbprr@att.net wrote: > The Gary Indiana PBS station had a two hour back to back > presentation called Streamliner on the American > Experience last night. My reception of this in Chicago > was such that it was barely visible but it ran the gamut > from the Zephyrs through the post war trains. There was > at least one shot of a G in the presentation calling it > part of the post war modernization. The films of the > name trains was excellent from the lttle I could see of > it. Is this an old or a new show? Highly worth asking > your PBS station to run it if you haven't seen it. >norm Bell -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: howdy@qnet.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PBS show on Streamliners Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 13:33:35 GMT Norm and all, Check out the History Channel web site www.thehistorychannel.com search for streamliner, they list two tapes, "Trains Unlimited: Built for Speed" $14.95 "Trains Unlimited: The American Stramliner" $19.95 I think the latter is the one you saw. I saw it about a year ago and even remembered where I saw it. Howdy > The Gary Indiana PBS station had a two hour back to back > presentation called Streamliner on the American > Experience last night. My reception of this in Chicago > was such that it was barely visible but it ran the gamut > from the Zephyrs through the post war trains. There was > at least one shot of a G in the presentation calling it > part of the post war modernization. The films of the > name trains was excellent from the lttle I could see of > it. Is this an old or a new show? Highly worth asking > your PBS station to run it if you haven't seen it. norm > Bell > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 10:33:26 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Life Like Announcements From: Jerry Britton Life Like just made their [quarterly?] new product announcements. No PRR. They announced SD60M's, DL109's, and a Heritage 2-8-4. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 08:43:17 -0700 Subject: [PRR] PRR Tie Spec From: Greg Ritacco Listers, Does anyone have the specs for Pennsy ties, size 5 through 1? Also, I am looking for the spec for the tie used to hold the third rail, and the spacing, though from photos it looks like every fifth tie or so. Thanks much and any references are greatly appreciated. Greg. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 13:47:58 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Crawler Cranes was Cranes vs. Derricks Al sez: >Then of course there was the crawler crane equipment (in MW service) >which Bruce Smith commented on the other day (and to which I don't >believe any replies were given), which I have not forgotten and hopefully >will comment on soon. And of course the smaller capacity Burro crane type >equipment also in MW service. Al Al, I wait with baited breath! In looking at the photo of a crawler crane on a GRA in one of the Color Guides, it seems the ends of the GRA have been removed. This looks like a pretty easy kitbash with the Westerfield kit (which is NOT one of the easiest to build), but I'm willing to bet that it would compromise the stregth of the sides! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:33:44 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Help on B60, B60a, B60b, Gold Stars In a message dated 6/16/02 1:11:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Hi Rick & list members, > > In his excellent post, Rick stated: > > > In other postings, we learn that some B60 cars were once equipped with > bag > > hooks and designated as MS60's -- but it's said they were redesignated to > > > B60b's? > > A minor quibble, but > I believe it was stated they were redesignated to B60's, not B60b's. > A different car class, that looked very different. Also, the B60b > was not built until approx 1925 or so. The first B60, OTOH, > was probably built around 1909. > > - Claus > Claus, Thanks for correction. Made this mistake because in the late period I model, it seems every B60 one sees is a B60b. Let me throw out two open questions: 1. In the 40's, the 50's, and the 60's, what 60 foot baggage car number series were NOT B60b? 2. And (again), in what number series can we confirm Gold Star cars, equipped for the needs of an express agent ("express messenger") with toilet, lights, desk, etc.? Rick Tipton [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:33:51 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Some codes that appear with MS60 in consists In a message dated 6/14/02 7:21:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: > Rick, > > I was looking at my PRR East-West Passenger Consist Book, and I > notice the on a lot of the trains, "MS60" have the letter "X" next to > the code meaning "REA Express" > Also so note:"all MS60 Express and Paper Cars are to be R50 or X29 > type unless otherwise indicated." > > Dave > Which Consist Book are you looking at? the X for Railway Express is possible, but conflicts with usage in some of the consist books I have. Some examples available to me: 1. 1939 "Pennsylvania Railroad -- Western Region -- Consists and Established Connections -- Passenger Trains -- Number 30". In this listing, A means daily except Sunday, B means daily except Monday, and X in the schedule column means "when needed". Equipment symbols include B-50 (Baggage car) B-60 (Baggage car), B-70 (Baggage car, scenery), and MS-60 (mail storage car). There are no codes cited for sealed cars nor for Railway Express assignments. In the actual listings, #11 (the Fast Mail) carries a list of "EXP B-60" out of New York for Memphis, New Orleans, Oklahoma City, Laredo, Houston, and 2 St Louis cars. I'm not certain whether an "EXP B-60" means operated for Railway Express, but it's a good possibility. At the same time, it carries MS-60's as follows: New York-KC Philadelphia-St. Louis New York-St. Louis (Mexican) New York-St. Louis (space-used basis) New York-St. Louis (open) I interpret this last "open" to mean mail bags go on and off this car at any logical stop between New York and St. Louis. It happens the next car listed is M-70, an RPO from Pittsburgh to St. Louis, so having an adjacent open car for completed bags is a real asset. Then the next car is MS-60 Pittsburgh to St. Louis -- presumably presorted St. Louis mail that doesn't need to be touched. 2. The next kind of consist I have is from a Bob Reid publication and was from April 1950 "The Pennsylvania Railroad -- Make-Up of Trains -- New York Division No. 19". This one includes a number of goodies: A. lists of headend cars and their equipment. Examples: 1. B74 horse cars having overhead water tanks (5820-5824, 5849, 5850, 5855, 5861, 5869. 2. baggage cars marked with star (scattered numbers from 6004 to 9384). 3. class M-70B 6501-6531 had full 70' Mail Apartment, except 6507 and 6509, which had 60' Mail Apartment and 10' "Baggage End". 4. lists individual BM70's with 30', 25', and 15' RPO compartments. 5, lists number series of baggage cars with Permanent Swinging Mail Stanchions (5600-5797, 7435-7939, 9000-9200, 9270-9404). To answer my own earlier question, about 50 Gold Star cars are sprinkled in these last two series. B. Train listings here in 1950 use lots of the MS-60 designation. To pick on #11, the St. Louis Mail, again, its makeup on Tuesday through Saturday was: MS60 to KC MS60 (X for sealed) to Texarkana MS60 to Los Angeles MS60 (Solid) to St. Louis (Mexican) MS60 (Open) to St. Louis M70 to Pittsburgh with Letter End East BM70 to Pittsburgh with Letter End West (obviously, these two RPO's were replaced at Pittsburgh for the run to St. Louis) MS60 to Pittsburgh MS60 to Council Bluffs MS60 to Chicago via Pittsburgh B60 (X) Jersey City to Pittsburgh with papers P70 to Pittsburgh as a rider car 3. A 1953 consist shows similar info -- "Pennsylvania Railroad Consists of Inter-Regional Passenger Trains, effective Sept 27, 1953". These consists are footnoted that the (X) means "car sealed for destination". Number 11's consist west of Pittsburgh carried: 9 MS60 7 MS60 (X) to St. Louis and cities beyond via MP 2 "R50 or X29" 3 B60 2 B60 Gold Star 3 R50 5 X29 1 BM70M 1 P70 1 more rider coach I'm not sure what this tells us, but the clues seem to indicate that the MS60 requirements were large over a long period of time, going along with Pennsy's massive movement of both presorted and RPO-distributed mail. Note that MS60 and B60 (and B60 Gold Star) are found on the same train, and that X42 class is never called out in these operating department plans, possibly because there were so few, but more probably because they were only a small source of the total storage mail cars. Incidentally, I rechecked my files, and every mention of the X42 refers to it as a "mail storage" car. Interior equipment is not mentioned. Note also that we haven't proved that MS60 was "storage mail" only. True, it seems strongly implied, but we haven't really established that MS60 included no Railway Express business. Sorting out the truth here remains an interesting problem... my impression is that we're still like the blind men examining the elephant -- each building his picture from the part of the elephant we've touched. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:33:45 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] "Columbus" view is probably St. Louis west of SLUS + SLUS Express Facilities Walt, A little while back you were commenting that the picture of the City of Cincinnati sleeper on p28 of PRR Color Guide 3 is incorrectly identified as Columbus. In Color Guide 2, page 9, Colonial Dames appears in the same scene, with exactly the same lighting, identified as the St. Louis coach yard. Everything I know implies this is a TRRA facility lying just west of the Station, although that's my deduction, not fact. A further guess is that the PRR cars are on the west wye throat, being switched into the station, and that the two-story building behind them was built circa 1904 for the United States Express Company. At that time, Railway Express was not consolidated, and SLUS's reconstruction made room for the 5 express companies. Reading from the main north (to the right), their assigned spaces were US Express, Wells Fargo, American Express, Pacific Express, and Adams Express. After merger, American Railway Express and then (by the time the pix were taken) Railway Express Agency would be the tenant in all these spaces. TRRA maps call the coach yard visible behind the express facility "21st Street Coach yard". Incidentally, both pix are by the late Paul C. Winters and are dated 4 days apart in October 1961. I have no explanation for the date discrepancy, but thank goodness for Paul's body of work on freight and passenger cars. Rick Tipton [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:33:51 EDT Subject: [PRR] Some codes that appear with MS60 in consists --part1_aa.d2fa34b.2a41013f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/14/02 7:21:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: > Rick, > > I was looking at my PRR East-West Passenger Consist Book, and I > notice the on a lot of the trains, "MS60" have the letter "X" next to > the code meaning "REA Express" > Also so note:"all MS60 Express and Paper Cars are to be R50 or X29 > type unless otherwise indicated." > > Dave > Which Consist Book are you looking at? the X for Railway Express is possible, but conflicts with usage in some of the consist books I have. Some examples available to me: 1. 1939 "Pennsylvania Railroad -- Western Region -- Consists and Established Connections -- Passenger Trains -- Number 30". In this listing, A means daily except Sunday, B means daily except Monday, and X in the schedule column means "when needed". Equipment symbols include B-50 (Baggage car) B-60 (Baggage car), B-70 (Baggage car, scenery), and MS-60 (mail storage car). There are no codes cited for sealed cars nor for Railway Express assignments. In the actual listings, #11 (the Fast Mail) carries a list of "EXP B-60" out of New York for Memphis, New Orleans, Oklahoma City, Laredo, Houston, and 2 St Louis cars. I'm not certain whether an "EXP B-60" means operated for Railway Express, but it's a good possibility. At the same time, it carries MS-60's as follows: New York-KC Philadelphia-St. Louis New York-St. Louis (Mexican) New York-St. Louis (space-used basis) New York-St. Louis (open) I interpret this last "open" to mean mail bags go on and off this car at any logical stop between New York and St. Louis. It happens the next car listed is M-70, an RPO from Pittsburgh to St. Louis, so having an adjacent open car for completed bags is a real asset. Then the next car is MS-60 Pittsburgh to St. Louis -- presumably presorted St. Louis mail that doesn't need to be touched. 2. The next kind of consist I have is from a Bob Reid publication and was from April 1950 "The Pennsylvania Railroad -- Make-Up of Trains -- New York Division No. 19". This one includes a number of goodies: A. lists of headend cars and their equipment. Examples: 1. B74 horse cars having overhead water tanks (5820-5824, 5849, 5850, 5855, 5861, 5869. 2. baggage cars marked with star (scattered numbers from 6004 to 9384). 3. class M-70B 6501-6531 had full 70' Mail Apartment, except 6507 and 6509, which had 60' Mail Apartment and 10' "Baggage End". 4. lists individual BM70's with 30', 25', and 15' RPO compartments. 5, lists number series of baggage cars with Permanent Swinging Mail Stanchions (5600-5797, 7435-7939, 9000-9200, 9270-9404). To answer my own earlier question, about 50 Gold Star cars are sprinkled in these last two series. B. Train listings here in 1950 use lots of the MS-60 designation. To pick on #11, the St. Louis Mail, again, its makeup on Tuesday through Saturday was: MS60 to KC MS60 (X for sealed) to Texarkana MS60 to Los Angeles MS60 (Solid) to St. Louis (Mexican) MS60 (Open) to St. Louis M70 to Pittsburgh with Letter End East BM70 to Pittsburgh with Letter End West (obviously, these two RPO's were replaced at Pittsburgh for the run to St. Louis) MS60 to Pittsburgh MS60 to Council Bluffs MS60 to Chicago via Pittsburgh B60 (X) Jersey City to Pittsburgh with papers P70 to Pittsburgh as a rider car 3. A 1953 consist shows similar info -- "Pennsylvania Railroad Consists of Inter-Regional Passenger Trains, effective Sept 27, 1953". These consists are footnoted that the (X) means "car sealed for destination". Number 11's consist west of Pittsburgh carried: 9 MS60 7 MS60 (X) to St. Louis and cities beyond via MP 2 "R50 or X29" 3 B60 2 B60 Gold Star 3 R50 5 X29 1 BM70M 1 P70 1 more rider coach I'm not sure what this tells us, but the clues seem to indicate that the MS60 requirements were large over a long period of time, going along with Pennsy's massive movement of both presorted and RPO-distributed mail. Note that MS60 and B60 (and B60 Gold Star) are found on the same train, and that X42 class is never called out in these operating department plans, possibly because there were so few, but more probably because they were only a small source of the total storage mail cars. Incidentally, I rechecked my files, and every mention of the X42 refers to it as a "mail storage" car. Interior equipment is not mentioned. Note also that we haven't proved that MS60 was "storage mail" only. True, it seems strongly implied, but we haven't really established that MS60 included no Railway Express business. Sorting out the truth here remains an interesting problem... my impression is that we're still like the blind men examining the elephant -- each building his picture from the part of the elephant we've touched. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_aa.d2fa34b.2a41013f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/14/02 7:21:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes:


Rick,

      I was looking at my PRR East-West Passenger Consist Book, and I
notice the on a lot of the trains, "MS60" have the letter "X" next to
the code meaning "REA Express"
      Also so note:"all MS60 Express and Paper Cars are to be R50 or X29
type unless otherwise indicated."

Dave


Which Consist Book are you looking at?  the X for Railway Express is possible, but conflicts with usage in some of the consist books I have.  Some examples available to me:

1. 1939 "Pennsylvania Railroad -- Western Region -- Consists and Established Connections -- Passenger Trains -- Number 30".  In this listing, A means daily except Sunday, B means daily except Monday, and X in the schedule column means "when needed".  Equipment symbols include B-50 (Baggage car) B-60 (Baggage car), B-70 (Baggage car, scenery), and MS-60 (mail storage car).  There are no codes cited for sealed cars nor for Railway Express assignments.

In the actual listings, #11 (the Fast Mail) carries a list of "EXP B-60" out of New York for Memphis, New Orleans, Oklahoma City, Laredo, Houston, and 2 St Louis cars.  I'm not certain whether an "EXP B-60" means operated for Railway Express, but it's a good possibility.  At the same time, it carries MS-60's as follows:
New York-KC
Philadelphia-St. Louis
New York-St. Louis (Mexican)
New York-St. Louis (space-used basis)
New York-St. Louis (open)

I interpret this last "open" to mean mail bags go on and off this car at any logical stop between New York and St. Louis.  It happens the next car listed is M-70, an RPO from Pittsburgh to St. Louis, so having an adjacent open car for completed bags is a real asset. Then the next car is
MS-60 Pittsburgh to St. Louis  -- presumably presorted St. Louis mail that doesn't need to be touched.

2. The next kind of consist I have is from a Bob Reid publication and was from April 1950  "The Pennsylvania Railroad -- Make-Up of Trains -- New York Division No. 19".  This one includes a number of goodies:

A. lists of headend cars and their equipment.  Examples:
       1. B74 horse cars having overhead water tanks (5820-5824, 5849, 5850, 5855, 5861, 5869.
       2. baggage cars marked with star (scattered numbers from 6004 to 9384).
       3. class M-70B 6501-6531 had full 70' Mail Apartment, except 6507 and 6509, which had 60' Mail Apartment and 10' "Baggage End".
       4. lists individual BM70's with 30', 25', and 15' RPO compartments.
       5, lists number series of baggage cars with Permanent Swinging Mail Stanchions (5600-5797, 7435-7939, 9000-9200, 9270-9404).  To answer my own earlier question, about 50 Gold Star cars are sprinkled in these last two series.

B. Train listings here in 1950 use lots of the MS-60 designation.  To pick on #11, the St. Louis Mail, again, its makeup on Tuesday through Saturday was:
MS60 to KC
MS60 (X for sealed) to Texarkana
MS60 to Los Angeles
MS60 (Solid) to St. Louis (Mexican)
MS60 (Open) to St. Louis
M70 to Pittsburgh with Letter End East
BM70 to Pittsburgh with Letter End West (obviously, these two RPO's were replaced at Pittsburgh for the run to St. Louis)
MS60 to Pittsburgh
MS60 to Council Bluffs
MS60 to Chicago via Pittsburgh
B60 (X) Jersey City to Pittsburgh with papers
P70 to Pittsburgh as a rider car

3.  A 1953 consist shows similar info -- "Pennsylvania Railroad Consists of Inter-Regional Passenger Trains, effective Sept 27, 1953".  These consists are footnoted that the (X) means "car sealed for destination".  Number 11's consist  west of Pittsburgh carried:
9 MS60
7 MS60 (X) to St. Louis and cities beyond via MP
2 "R50 or X29"
3 B60
2 B60 Gold Star
3 R50
5 X29
1 BM70M
1 P70
1 more rider coach


I'm not sure what this tells us, but the clues seem to indicate that the MS60 requirements were large over a long period of time, going along with Pennsy's massive movement of both presorted and RPO-distributed mail.  Note that MS60 and B60 (and B60 Gold Star) are found on the same train, and that X42 class is never called out in these operating department plans, possibly because there were so few, but more probably because they were only a small source of the total storage mail cars. 

Incidentally, I rechecked my files, and every mention of the X42 refers to it as a "mail storage" car.  Interior equipment is not mentioned.

Note also that we haven't proved that MS60 was "storage mail" only.  True, it seems strongly implied, but we haven't really established that MS60 included no Railway Express business.  Sorting out the truth here remains an interesting problem...  my impression is that we're still like the blind men examining the elephant -- each building his picture from the part of the elephant we've touched.



Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_aa.d2fa34b.2a41013f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:33:45 EDT Subject: [PRR] "Columbus" view is probably St. Louis west of SLUS + SLUS --part1_176.9ebd45f.2a410139_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt, A little while back you were commenting that the picture of the City of Cincinnati sleeper on p28 of PRR Color Guide 3 is incorrectly identified as Columbus. In Color Guide 2, page 9, Colonial Dames appears in the same scene, with exactly the same lighting, identified as the St. Louis coach yard. Everything I know implies this is a TRRA facility lying just west of the Station, although that's my deduction, not fact. A further guess is that the PRR cars are on the west wye throat, being switched into the station, and that the two-story building behind them was built circa 1904 for the United States Express Company. At that time, Railway Express was not consolidated, and SLUS's reconstruction made room for the 5 express companies. Reading from the main north (to the right), their assigned spaces were US Express, Wells Fargo, American Express, Pacific Express, and Adams Express. After merger, American Railway Express and then (by the time the pix were taken) Railway Express Agency would be the tenant in all these spaces. TRRA maps call the coach yard visible behind the express facility "21st Street Coach yard". Incidentally, both pix are by the late Paul C. Winters and are dated 4 days apart in October 1961. I have no explanation for the date discrepancy, but thank goodness for Paul's body of work on freight and passenger cars. Rick Tipton --part1_176.9ebd45f.2a410139_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Walt,

A little while back you were commenting that the picture of the City of Cincinnati sleeper on p28 of PRR Color Guide 3 is incorrectly identified as Columbus.  In Color Guide 2, page 9, Colonial Dames appears in the same scene, with exactly the same lighting, identified as the St. Louis coach yard.  Everything I know implies this is a TRRA facility lying just west of the Station, although that's my deduction, not fact. 

A further guess is that the PRR cars are on the west wye throat, being switched into the station, and that the two-story building behind them was built circa 1904 for the United States Express Company.  At that time, Railway Express was not consolidated, and SLUS's reconstruction made room for the 5 express companies.  Reading from the main north (to the right), their assigned spaces were US Express, Wells Fargo, American Express, Pacific Express, and Adams Express.  After merger, American Railway Express and then (by the time the pix were taken) Railway Express Agency would be the tenant in all these spaces.  TRRA maps call the coach yard visible behind the express facility "21st Street Coach yard".

Incidentally, both pix are by the late Paul C. Winters and are dated 4 days apart in October 1961.  I have no explanation for the date discrepancy, but thank goodness for Paul's body of work on freight and passenger cars.


Rick Tipton
 --part1_176.9ebd45f.2a410139_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 17:33:41 EDT Subject: [PRR] MS60 sealed --part1_15d.f92797d.2a410135_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/16/02 7:37:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:16:44 -0400 > From: Garry Spear > Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] Re: When was MS60 really a proxy code? Seems to > mean more than X42 > > A thought. Perhaps the MS60 describes the usage of the car, not the > physical car. Some mail cars were locked and sealed at the originating > Post Office and delivered to the receiving Post Office still locked. i.e. > the car was used for mail storage. Other cars were not sealed and could be > > used for the delivery and receipt of bagged mail at various stops. > > Just a though. > > Garry > Actually, the 1950 and 1953 consists I've been studying shows the symbol (X) for sealed on some MS60's and other cars. Therefore, I doubt MS60 is a code for sealed mail only. Rick Tipton --part1_15d.f92797d.2a410135_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/16/02 7:37:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 1
   Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:16:44 -0400
   From: Garry Spear <gspear01@erols.com>
Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] Re: When was MS60 really a proxy code?  Seems to mean more than X42

A thought.  Perhaps the MS60 describes the usage of the car, not the
physical car.  Some mail cars were locked and sealed at the originating
Post Office and delivered to the receiving Post Office still locked.  i.e.
the car was used for mail storage.  Other cars were not sealed and could be
used for the delivery and receipt of bagged mail at various stops.

Just a though.

Garry


Actually, the 1950 and 1953 consists I've been studying shows the symbol (X) for sealed on some MS60's and other cars.  Therefore, I doubt MS60 is a code for sealed mail only.


Rick Tipton
 --part1_15d.f92797d.2a410135_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:28:41 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] FD-2 Queen Mary Flat photos Hi All, As a favor to PRR TALK list member Sam V., I have uploaded the 3 Builders photos of the FD-2 Queen Mary Flat car as per an earlier thread. He could not open the attachments. They are 8 x 10 at 300 DPI, so they are pretty good quality. I scanned them directly from my 4 x 5 copy negs, so they are not as perfect as if I printed them. Download and save while you can folks. I am only keeping these links live for a few days. I hope this is appreciated. My last post was returned to me by someone with a completely unrelated topic attacking me. This is the kind of person I AM! http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/FD2end.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/FD234view.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/FD2side.jpg Enjoy, Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:04:50 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Help on B60, B60a, B60b, Gold Stars RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > Thanks for correction. Made this mistake because in the late period I model, > it seems every B60 one sees is a B60b. Let me throw out two open questions: > 1. In the 40's, the 50's, and the 60's, what 60 foot baggage car number > series were NOT B60b? > 2. And (again), in what number series can we confirm Gold Star cars, equipped > for the needs of an express agent ("express messenger") with toilet, lights, > desk, etc.? > > Rick Tipton > Rick- I offer this for your perusal. I hope it can answer your qustions. Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO Car Class Info Baggage- B50- 54'' Baggage Express-50'7" interior-ACS #10001 B60- 60' Baggage-Ventilator Type-61' interior #5403,07,12,37,39 B60- 60' Baggage Express-60'3" interior- P.S.M.S. #5600-68,5673-5725,5736-5797 B60- 60' Baggage Express-60'3" interior #5935-68,5971,5980-5997 B60- 60' Baggage Express-60'3" interior #6624-6650 B60- 60' Baggage Express-60' interior #7312-22,7329,32,39 B60- 60' Baggage Express-60'3" interior #7292-97,7324 B60- 60' Baggage Express-ACF-60' interior-1924 #7376,93 B60- 60' Baggage Express-ACF-60'3" interior-1924 #7408-7418 B60- 60' Baggage Express-60' interior #7422-7424 B60- 60' Baggage Express-60'3" interior #9668-9710, 9715-9776 B60A- 60' Baggage Express-60' interior- P.S.M.S. #5669-5672 B60A- 60' Baggage Express-60' interior #5972-5980 B60A-60' Baggage- Auto End Door B60B-60' Baggage- Balloon Type B60B-60' Baggage-60'3" interior #6129-50,52-56,59-60 B60B-60' Baggage-60' interior #6151,57,58,6261-63 B60B-60' Baggage-60'3" interior #6164-6478 B60B- 60' Baggage Express-60' interior- P.S.M.S. #7435-7500 B60B- 60' Baggage Express-60' interior- P.S.M.S. #7708-7720,7723-7735 B60B- 60' Baggage Express-60' interior-Blt.1928- P.S.M.S. #7797-7939 B60B-60' Express Messenger-60' interior-REA Gold Star-P.S.M.S. #9009,9033,9050,9056,9060,9072 B60B-60' Baggage-60' interior-Blt.-St. Louis-1928- P.S.M.S. #9010-32,9034-49,9051-55,9057-59,9061-71,9073-9100 B60B-60' Baggage-ACF-60' interior-1928-P.S.M.S. #9101-9140,9142-9173,9175-9188,9190-9199 B60B-60' Baggage-60' interior-P.S.M.S. #9141,9174,9189,9200 B60B-63' Express Messenger-60' interior-REA Gold Star-1928 #9201-58,9261-9399 B60B-60' Baggage-60' interior-P.S.M.S. #9270-9399 B60B-60' Express Messenger-60' interior-REA Gold Star-P.S.M.S. #9272,76,80,81,85,88,90,91,93,94,97 B60B-60' Exp. Messenger-60' inter.-REA Gold Star-1928-P.S.M.S. #9303,04,11,12,14,17,23,29,30,35,36,41,44,45,46,57,58.60,61,63-66,69 B60B-60' Express Messenger-60' interior-REA Gold Star-P.S.M.S. #9371,73,75,76,84,86,87,89,95,97 B60B-60' Baggage-60' interior-P.S.M.S. #9400-04 B62- 62' Baggage Express #7940-53 x Gone by 1953 B70-70' Baggage- Blt. 1928 #6000-03,05-25,27-54 B70-70' Baggage Express Messenger-REA Gold Star #6004,6026 B70A-70' Theater scenery express-End doors #6055-6061,6063-6084,6086-6099 B70A-70' Theater scenery express-End doors- Blt.1928 #6062, 6085 B70B- 70' Baggage car-E-457879A-conv. from BM70K, BM70KA #6100-02,05,07,24,26,27,29,34,35 B70B- 70' Baggage car-E-457876A-conv. from BM70KA-1955 #6101,03,04,06,09-11,20,21,23,25,28,32,36,38,40,41,42 B70B- 70' Baggage car-E-457873A-conv. from BM70KA #6108,13,22,37 B70B- 70' Baggage car-E-457877A-conv. from BM70L 1955 #6112,6114-19 x B70B- 70' Baggage car-E-457875A-conv. from BM70K #6130.31,33,39,43 B70B- 70' Baggage car-E-457881A-conv. from BM70K #6144 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:04:50 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Help on B60, B60a, B60b, Gold Stars RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > Thanks for correction. Made this mistake because in the late period I model, > it seems every B60 one sees is a B60b. Let me throw out two open questions: > 1. In the 40's, the 50's, and the 60's, what 60 foot baggage car number > series were NOT B60b? > 2. And (again), in what number series can we confirm Gold Star cars, equipped > for the needs of an express agent ("express messenger") with toilet, lights, > desk, etc.? > > Rick Tipton > Rick- I offer this for your perusal. I hope it can answer your qustions. Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO Car Class Info Baggage- B50- 54'' Baggage Express-50'7" interior-ACS #10001 B60- 60' Baggage-Ventilator Type-61' interior #5403,07,12,37,39 B60- 60' Baggage Express-60'3" interior- P.S.M.S. #5600-68,5673-5725,5736-5797 B60- 60' Baggage Express-60'3" interior #5935-68,5971,5980-5997 B60- 60' Baggage Express-60'3" interior #6624-6650 B60- 60' Baggage Express-60' interior #7312-22,7329,32,39 B60- 60' Baggage Express-60'3" interior #7292-97,7324 B60- 60' Baggage Express-ACF-60' interior-1924 #7376,93 B60- 60' Baggage Express-ACF-60'3" interior-1924 #7408-7418 B60- 60' Baggage Express-60' interior #7422-7424 B60- 60' Baggage Express-60'3" interior #9668-9710, 9715-9776 B60A- 60' Baggage Express-60' interior- P.S.M.S. #5669-5672 B60A- 60' Baggage Express-60' interior #5972-5980 B60A-60' Baggage- Auto End Door B60B-60' Baggage- Balloon Type B60B-60' Baggage-60'3" interior #6129-50,52-56,59-60 B60B-60' Baggage-60' interior #6151,57,58,6261-63 B60B-60' Baggage-60'3" interior #6164-6478 B60B- 60' Baggage Express-60' interior- P.S.M.S. #7435-7500 B60B- 60' Baggage Express-60' interior- P.S.M.S. #7708-7720,7723-7735 B60B- 60' Baggage Express-60' interior-Blt.1928- P.S.M.S. #7797-7939 B60B-60' Express Messenger-60' interior-REA Gold Star-P.S.M.S. #9009,9033,9050,9056,9060,9072 B60B-60' Baggage-60' interior-Blt.-St. Louis-1928- P.S.M.S. #9010-32,9034-49,9051-55,9057-59,9061-71,9073-9100 B60B-60' Baggage-ACF-60' interior-1928-P.S.M.S. #9101-9140,9142-9173,9175-9188,9190-9199 B60B-60' Baggage-60' interior-P.S.M.S. #9141,9174,9189,9200 B60B-63' Express Messenger-60' interior-REA Gold Star-1928 #9201-58,9261-9399 B60B-60' Baggage-60' interior-P.S.M.S. #9270-9399 B60B-60' Express Messenger-60' interior-REA Gold Star-P.S.M.S. #9272,76,80,81,85,88,90,91,93,94,97 B60B-60' Exp. Messenger-60' inter.-REA Gold Star-1928-P.S.M.S. #9303,04,11,12,14,17,23,29,30,35,36,41,44,45,46,57,58.60,61,63-66,69 B60B-60' Express Messenger-60' interior-REA Gold Star-P.S.M.S. #9371,73,75,76,84,86,87,89,95,97 B60B-60' Baggage-60' interior-P.S.M.S. #9400-04 B62- 62' Baggage Express #7940-53 x Gone by 1953 B70-70' Baggage- Blt. 1928 #6000-03,05-25,27-54 B70-70' Baggage Express Messenger-REA Gold Star #6004,6026 B70A-70' Theater scenery express-End doors #6055-6061,6063-6084,6086-6099 B70A-70' Theater scenery express-End doors- Blt.1928 #6062, 6085 B70B- 70' Baggage car-E-457879A-conv. from BM70K, BM70KA #6100-02,05,07,24,26,27,29,34,35 B70B- 70' Baggage car-E-457876A-conv. from BM70KA-1955 #6101,03,04,06,09-11,20,21,23,25,28,32,36,38,40,41,42 B70B- 70' Baggage car-E-457873A-conv. from BM70KA #6108,13,22,37 B70B- 70' Baggage car-E-457877A-conv. from BM70L 1955 #6112,6114-19 x B70B- 70' Baggage car-E-457875A-conv. from BM70K #6130.31,33,39,43 B70B- 70' Baggage car-E-457881A-conv. from BM70K #6144 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 20:28:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: Some codes that appear with MS60 in consists Rick & List, I should have stated the years. Sorry about that. The two consist books I have in front of me right now are the 1964 and 1967 PRR East- West Consist of Passenger Trains. This is the era I model. I had these books out to see when PRR started to add "Flexi-Vans" to the consist of the mail amd passenger trains. Your books are earlier than mine so a lot of changes took place. I too have heard that the symbol "X" is a sealed car. In the Oct. 64 book the "X" symbol may mean sealed car. On Train 3 (Penn Texas) states: "REX 8200 series cars, NEWSWEEK Mag. to L.A." But has other MS60 codes with "X" behind them. On Train 15, NY to Pittsburgh M&E, one of the MS60 (X) cars is marked "Baby Chicks". Dave Hopson PRRT&HS,PCRRHS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] PRR B-6sa, No. 60 Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 22:26:17 -0400 This is an up-date on messages concerning PRR B-6sa, No. 60, currently residing at Hochessin, DE. That locomotive and tender were owned by Cemline Corporation in Cheswick, PA. They manufactured hot water tanks, and were not a steel mill. They bought the locomotive from the PRR to use as a stationary boiler. In early 1981, one of our members spotted it in the weeds outside the plant between old State Route 28 and the Allegheny River (practically under the Bessemer RR bridge). There was a tree growing through the tender floor. Many parts were missing at the time. In May 1981, The Pittsburgh Chapter PRRT&HS, decided to save her. Incidentally, I was president of the Pittsburgh Chapter at that time. After negotiating with Cemline, the PRRT&HS agreed to pay them $4000.00 (scrap value). The BOD approved the purchase and Jim Lynch, PRRT&HS Sec. at the time, drew up the agreement which stipulated that the B-6sa had to be removed by October 31, 1980. Cemline was given a $1000.00 down payment. We had work parties there every weekend making the B-6sa ready to move. We planned to move her by rail. We failed in our efforts. Conrail was really not interested in helping. They would have to put in a switch, as well as move the telephone wires. After repeated pleas to them for help went unanswered, we had to abandon the project. Cemline kept the B-6sa and the $1000.00. The only consolation we had was, we tried. So much for the "best laid plans of mice and men". Carl P. Izzo President for Life Pittsburgh Chapter PRRT&HS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:28:41 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] FD-2 Queen Mary Flat photos Hi All, As a favor to PRR TALK list member Sam V., I have uploaded the 3 Builders photos of the FD-2 Queen Mary Flat car as per an earlier thread. He could not open the attachments. They are 8 x 10 at 300 DPI, so they are pretty good quality. I scanned them directly from my 4 x 5 copy negs, so they are not as perfect as if I printed them. Download and save while you can folks. I am only keeping these links live for a few days. I hope this is appreciated. My last post was returned to me by someone with a completely unrelated topic attacking me. This is the kind of person I AM! http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/FD2end.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/FD234view.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/FD2side.jpg Enjoy, Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 01:18:26 EDT Subject: [PRR] possible new PRR steamers in HO Got to see the new Walthers dealer survey last weekend. It had about 6-8 potential new Rivarossi steamers that Walthers is thinking about. Two have potential for PRR fans. A USRA 2-10-2 with a listing for PRR roadname could be a N-2 I believe. Also included was a 2-10-4 with C&O, PRR, KCS and others that I can't remember. They showed a picture of the C&O version but the PRR isn't that different but for front end cab, and tender fo the major differences. They also had a 3400 series SF Hudson , a heavy USRA 2-8-2, a 4-4-2, 4-6-0 and one other I can't remember. Anyway looks like we might get some more PRR steamers. ---------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] possible new PRR steamers in HO Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:07:15 -0400 Does this mean we might actually get a J? Chris Chany Ken wrote: "Also included was a 2-10-4 with C&O, PRR, KCS and others that I can't remember. They showed a picture of the C&O version but the PRR isn't that different but for front end cab, and tender fo the major differences. " ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 10:12:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] possible new PRR steamers in HO From: Jerry Britton On 6/19/02 10:07 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > Does this mean we might actually get a J? I'd bet on Broadway Limited Imports. Would be a logical choice following the M1 and T1. > > Chris Chany > > Ken wrote: > "Also included was a 2-10-4 with C&O, PRR, KCS and others > that I can't remember. They showed a picture of the C&O version but the PRR > isn't that different but for front end cab, and tender fo the major > differences. " > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 12:03:52 -0400 From: Zak Subject: Re: [PRR] PBS show on Streamliners For those interested, I did a search using "Trains Unlimited" as search words, and there is a whole series of stuff on that site. Zak ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2002 9:33 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PBS show on Streamliners > Norm and all, > Check out the History Channel web site > > www.thehistorychannel.com > > search for streamliner, they list two tapes, > > "Trains Unlimited: Built for Speed" $14.95 > > "Trains Unlimited: The American Stramliner" $19.95 > > I think the latter is the one you saw. I saw it about a year ago and even > remembered where I saw it. > > Howdy > > > > > The Gary Indiana PBS station had a two hour back to back > > presentation called Streamliner on the American > > Experience last night. My reception of this in Chicago > > was such that it was barely visible but it ran the gamut > > from the Zephyrs through the post war trains. There was > > at least one shot of a G in the presentation calling it > > part of the post war modernization. The films of the > > name trains was excellent from the lttle I could see of > > it. Is this an old or a new show? Highly worth asking > > your PBS station to run it if you haven't seen it. norm > > Bell > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 12:17:11 -0700 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re:FD-2 Queen Mary Flat photos Awesome car, Bill, Thanks very much. Steve Bartlett Subject: FD-2 Queen Mary Flat photos From: "Bill Lane" Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:28:41 -0400 Hi All, As a favor to PRR TALK list member Sam V., I have uploaded the 3 Builders photos of the FD-2 Queen Mary Flat car as per an earlier thread ...... I hope this is appreciated. My last post was returned to me by someone with a completely unrelated topic attacking me. This is the kind of person I AM! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 19:35:01 -0700 From: Subject: [PRR] Pennsy sleepers Ok Guys, I stumbled onto IHC's 8-1-2 sleeper at the local hobby shop and would like to "Pennsy-ize" a pair. I would appreciate info leading to "typical" room layout and underbody diagrams. I have visited Mr. Spear's site and have gleaned the info there (car names/numbers as well a/c type). Any books out there (available at this time) that can assist me? This is of course assuming that the IHC 8-1-2 fits a Pennsy prototype. Thanks, Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 22:30:13 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR Coaches from UP From: John Sheets In the late 50 or in the 60's (?) PRR bought a bunch of coaches from the Union Pacific, they were reworked and repainted and used on long distance trains. Does anyone know the PRR class and road numbers of these cars? Where they fully lettered or just got keystones and numbers? Thanks John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Rea" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy sleepers Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 00:16:09 -0400 Walt and the List: I also picked up a pair of IHC 8-1-2s. Nicer than I expected. Similar to the classic Rivarossi 12-1. I will probably add weight in the under frame install KD couplers and wheel sets, then adjust the bolster height accordingly, add NERS A/C ducts and American Ltd diaphragms. I also got an IHC interior for each one. The interior kit is very nice. It includes berths and partitions. I have already noted one problem though. The entire floor plan seems shifted about 1/16" toward one end of the car. This makes the partitions between sections shift enough hat you see them through the window. I have not assembled them yet but I think I can cure this by elongating the holes in the floor. Have any of you tried this? Fred Rea ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 10:35 PM Subject: [PRR] Pennsy sleepers > > Ok Guys, > I stumbled onto IHC's 8-1-2 sleeper at the local hobby shop and would like to "Pennsy-ize" a pair. I would appreciate info leading to "typical" room layout and underbody diagrams. I have visited Mr. Spear's site and have gleaned the info there (car names/numbers as well a/c type). Any books out there (available at this time) that can assist me? > > This is of course assuming that the IHC 8-1-2 fits a Pennsy prototype. > > Thanks, > Walt Prusick > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 01:07:32 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy sleepers Walt- Hope this helps you. HW 8 Sec 1 Dr 2 Cmp-Pl. 3979A Lot 6353 #8599- "Arthur Brisbane" from "Andrew W. Mellon" 4/40- PRR paint-Seats 23 2411 HW 8 Sec 1 Dr 2 Cmp-Pl. 3979A Lot 6353-6377 #8600-8602,8606-07- "Oak"- PRR paint-Seats 23 2411 HW 8 Sec 1 Dr 2 Cmpt-Plan 3979A Lot 6205 #8603-8605-"Cent"- PRR paint-Seats 23 2411 HW 8 Sec 1 Dr 2 Cmpt-Pl. 3979A Lot 6377 #8608-"George Westinghouse"from "Willow Oak" 5/40-Pull. paint 2411 HW 8 Sec 1 Dr 2 Cmpt-Pl. 3979A Lot 6353-6359-6377 #8609-8617- "Oaks"- PRR paint-Seats 23 2411 Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO Fred Rea wrote: > Walt and the List: > > I also picked up a pair of IHC 8-1-2s. Nicer than I expected. Similar to > the classic Rivarossi 12-1. I will probably add weight in the under frame > install KD couplers and wheel sets, then adjust the bolster height > accordingly, add NERS A/C ducts and American Ltd diaphragms. I also got an > IHC interior for each one. > > Fred Rea > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 10:35 PM > Subject: [PRR] Pennsy sleepers > > > Ok Guys, > > I stumbled onto IHC's 8-1-2 sleeper at the local hobby shop and would like to "Pennsy-ize" a pair. This is of course assuming that the IHC 8-1-2 fits a Pennsy prototype. > > > > Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 05:01:48 -0700 From: Subject: [PRR] Pennsy sleepers 2 List, Fred & Doc Pretty much my intentions Fred, but watch stripping the decorated models. I used brake fluid initially (it made the plastic bodies brittle while not removing the paint) so I used ScaleCoat Stripper (which crazed the roof and window glazing). My recommendations, use brake fluid for the roof and Scalcoat for the body. A few years back one of the magazines did a very nice 2 part on heavyweight sleepers (covering the 8-1-2 and 12-1), gaving "typical" layouts for the underbody accessories and other info. I have those issues somewhere. Anyway, I to was impressed with the cars and bought the heavyweight observation. Not a bad deal for under $10. Thanks, Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 08:41:24 -0400 From: TWRimer@uss.com Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/20/02 RE:possible new PRR steamers in HO Was I dreaming or did I read in this digest several months ago that Bowser has a PRR B6sb 0-6-0 in the works? Their website doesn't mention it and no one that I talk to seems to know anything about it (including one hobby shop owner). If this wasn't wishfull thinking on my part, does anyone know when the locomotive is slatted to be available? Tom Rimer twrimer@uss.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 08:56:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Future HO Products From: Jerry Britton On 6/20/02 8:41 AM, TWRimer@uss.com (TWRimer@uss.com) wrote: > Was I dreaming or did I read in this digest several months ago that Bowser > has a PRR B6sb > 0-6-0 in the works? Their website doesn't mention it and no one that I > talk to seems to > know anything about it (including one hobby shop owner). If this wasn't > wishfull thinking > on my part, does anyone know when the locomotive is slatted to be > available? > You were not dreaming. Bowser does indeed have a B6 on the workbench. Design has been complete and, if I recall, the boiler is done. Lee doesn't yet have an ETA, pricing, etc., but you can bet it will be at least early 2003. Probably well into next year, actually. The next HO scale car will be the N8 cabin. Again, no ETA, but I expect early 2003 with a chance for late 2002. There are also a variety of tender doghouses coming. I don't know if these will bear the Bowser or the Cal Scale name. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] travel to Strasburg and Lancaster Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 09:36:15 -0400 Friends: If any of you are going to the Lancaster area to visit the Strasburg RR or the PA RR Museum, be advised that the Dept of Environmental Protection has closed the Red Caboose Lodge and their restaurant because of polluted water. The gift shop is open. Lew Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic and Energy Systems Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 09:58:02 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] travel to Strasburg and Lancaster From: Jerry Britton On 6/20/02 9:36 AM, Lewis J. Matt PhD (lmatt@alltel.net) wrote: > If any of you are going to the Lancaster area to visit the Strasburg RR or > the PA RR Museum, be advised that the Dept of Environmental Protection has > closed the Red Caboose Lodge and their restaurant because of polluted water. > The gift shop is open. > Does the gift shop sell bottled water? ;-) Had to ask! Do you know, was the problem their own, or polluted well water? I've never stayed there since I love close by (an hour), but it seems like a neat place. I'd hate to see it close for any length of time. Do they have any ex-PRR cabins? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] travel to Strasburg and Lancaster Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 10:01:42 -0400 The Red Caboose Lodge has a nitrite/nitrate polluted well. They are supposedly building a water treatment facility on site. Don't know the construction timeline. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 9:58 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] travel to Strasburg and Lancaster > On 6/20/02 9:36 AM, Lewis J. Matt PhD (lmatt@alltel.net) wrote: > > > If any of you are going to the Lancaster area to visit the Strasburg RR or > > the PA RR Museum, be advised that the Dept of Environmental Protection has > > closed the Red Caboose Lodge and their restaurant because of polluted water. > > The gift shop is open. > > > Does the gift shop sell bottled water? ;-) Had to ask! > > Do you know, was the problem their own, or polluted well water? > > I've never stayed there since I love close by (an hour), but it seems like a > neat place. I'd hate to see it close for any length of time. > > Do they have any ex-PRR cabins? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 10:41:36 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] travel to Strasburg and Lancaster Jerry Britton wrote: > > the Red Caboose Lodge ... Do they have any ex-PRR cabins? Greetings to Jerry and the List: Yes, several, including one N5C that's lettered for Lionel Lines and, I believe, the "correct" Lionel number, 53-6417! Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAMMP236@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 18:28:42 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re PRR coaches from up --part1_cd.192ffcca.2a43b11a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Penn Central bought a small number of coaches from the UP in the mid 70s. The cars were painted Penn Central's passenger green. To the dismay of many the leg rests were removed from the cars. The cars were assigned to the BROADWAY LIMITED and lasted until Amtrak. I believe there is a video out on the history of The Broadway Limited that pictures these cars. Bill --part1_cd.192ffcca.2a43b11a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Penn Central bought a small number of coaches from the UP in the mid 70s.  The cars were painted Penn Central's passenger green. To the dismay of many the leg rests were removed from the cars. The cars were assigned to the BROADWAY LIMITED and lasted until Amtrak.  I believe there is a video out on the history of The Broadway Limited that pictures these cars.
                                                                         Bill --part1_cd.192ffcca.2a43b11a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 20:54:14 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: Talk about Freudian slips... From: "Jerry @ pennsyrr.com" on 6/20/02 7:01 PM, robert netzlof at wb3iqe@rocketmail.com wrote: > Since a motel was being discussed, your comment, "I've > never stayed there since I love close by..." caused me > to laugh, loudly. > > Still snickering, > Bob sent this to me privately, but he must have been about the tenth person that did so. Geez, I don't do this often, but it shows someone is reading what I type! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@pennsyrr.com http://kc.pennsyrr.com Modeling the PRR in 1954 in N scale -- http//kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] FD-2 Queen Mary Flat Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 21:40:45 -0400 Bill & Group, I just received my Railworks HO Model today. It is factory painted but they painted the trucks tuscan??? From Bill's photos the trucks look black or a version of black. Am I correct? I feel the detail on this is outstanding, But I am not a rivet counter. It will definitely take up some room on the layout. It is about 17" long. I just had to share this with the group. Sam Vastano >From: Bill Lane >To: S Trains , S Scale List >, PRR Fax , PRR Modeling >, PRR Talk >Subject: [PRR] FD-2 Queen Mary Flat photos >Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 18:28:41 -0400 > >Hi All, > >As a favor to PRR TALK list member Sam V., I have uploaded the 3 Builders >photos of the FD-2 Queen Mary Flat car as per an earlier thread. He could >not open the attachments. They are 8 x 10 at 300 DPI, so they are pretty >good quality. I scanned them directly from my 4 x 5 copy negs, so they are >not as perfect as if I printed them. Download and save while you can folks. >I am only keeping these links live for a few days. > >I hope this is appreciated. My last post was returned to me by someone with >a completely unrelated topic attacking me. This is the kind of person I AM! > >http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/FD2end.jpg > >http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/FD234view.jpg > >http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/FD2side.jpg > >Enjoy, > >Bill > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Sam Vastano McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. PH 724-368-8040 X243 Fax 724-368-9677 Bill _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 21:59:53 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy sleepers --part1_168.f6207fc.2a43e299_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hope you can live with the weird proportions of the letterboard and lower side panels - they are not accurate. If you are sticking with these I recommend changing out the trucks. Even the vintage Rivarossi trucks are better than the newer IHC ones but all have the wrong size wheels (33" diameter instead of the correct 36"). Also, both car ends should be identical. The end with the angled side panels is the proper one for both ends as there is a vestibule on both ends of the car. Chris Baker --part1_168.f6207fc.2a43e299_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hope you can live with the weird proportions of the letterboard and lower side panels - they are not accurate.  If you are sticking with these I recommend changing out the trucks.  Even the vintage Rivarossi trucks are better than the newer IHC ones but all have the wrong size wheels (33" diameter instead of the correct 36").  Also, both car ends should be identical.  The end with the angled side panels is the proper one for both ends as there is a vestibule on both ends of the car.

Chris Baker
 --part1_168.f6207fc.2a43e299_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 22:37:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Future HO Products - Very old news A Bowser B-6 would, in fact, be very old news - English Model Co., a Penn Line; Bowser predecessor, offered one - comparable to the Tyco big Six - almost fifty years ago - I have on of the plastic unpowered ones purchased for 98 cents ! Dick Ross, Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Future HO Products - Very old news Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 23:19:16 -0400 Dick, Are you sure it wasn't an A5 0-4-0? I distinctly recall English putting one of those out at the same time as the Berkshire plastic model. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 20, 2002 10:37 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Future HO Products - Very old news > A Bowser B-6 would, in fact, be very old news - > English Model Co., a Penn Line; Bowser predecessor, offered one - comparable > to the Tyco big Six - almost fifty years ago - I have on of the plastic > unpowered ones purchased for 98 cents ! > > Dick Ross, > Cleveland > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 21:02:09 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] travel to Strasburg and Lancaster From: "Douglas Nelson" > If any of you are going to the Lancaster area to visit the Strasburg RR or > the PA RR Museum, be advised that the Dept of Environmental Protection has > closed the Red Caboose Lodge and their restaurant because of polluted water. > The gift shop is open. Someone must have flushed while the train was still in the station. Doug. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 05:31:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Andrews Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona museum Yes, we hit the museum almost every time if time permits and I always buy a book or a sweatshirt or something even if I don't need the item. Another interesting thing - we do shopping when we're in Altoona. Prices seem to be better than in our part of the state and stores (even grocery stores) seem to have products that we don't see at home. On one occasion in a Logan Valley Mall store, while chatting with the sales girl we mentioned why we were visiting Altoona and she was absolutely astounded. She had lived her entire life in Altoona and this was the first inkling she ever had that anyone would travel to Altoona "just to see trains". Joe --- ndbprr@att.net wrote: > My point is > > that people will come to an area no matter how > > "remote" if you give them a good enough reason > > How many of those people had out of state license > plates? > > It is one thing to detour on a six hour drive. It > is > quite another to detour on a ten or 12 hour drive. > You > also didn't mention whether you visited the museum > or > not. Norm Bell > > Re: the subject of Altoona being off the beaten > path: > > Whenever possible, on our trips from eastern PA to > > Pittsburgh to see the Pirates play, we try to stop > in > > Altoona, go to the museum, the curve and whatever > else > > we have time for. We couldn't help but notice that > > it's almost impossible to get a motel room on > weekends > > that Penn State is playing a home game. . > > Joe > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 08:01:35 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] FD-2 Queen Mary Flat Sam asks: >I just received my Railworks HO Model today. It is factory painted but they >painted the trucks tuscan??? From Bill's photos the trucks look black or a >version of black. Am I correct? As I noted last week, every photo I have seen of this car shows black trucks. Methinks Railworks missed on that detail however, a quick airbrush job should fix the problem...BTW, the axles were NOT numbered in the PRR era, so no need to worry about decaling the trucks once you're done repainting them. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona museum Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:17:53 -0400 Joe wrote: "while chatting with the sales girl we mentioned why we were visiting Altoona and she was absolutely astounded. She had lived her entire life in Altoona and this was the first inkling she ever had that anyone would travel to Altoona "just to see trains"." My next question is does the young lady know the significance of the "trains" to Altoona? If not maybe the museum can come up with a one day program for the middle school and/or high school students history classes that shows the importance of trains to their hometown. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 09:34:25 -0700 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: travel to Strasburg and Lancaster That's the trouble with the help you get nowadays. Time was, when the conductor would have come around and locked the toilets for the station stop. (After giving due warning, of course). Steve Bartlett 2 Subject: Re: [PRR] travel to Strasburg and Lancaster From: "Douglas Nelson" Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 21:02:09 -0700 .... Someone must have flushed while the train was still in the station. Doug. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona museum Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 15:08:06 +0000 Joe: I had a similar experience in 1990. I was on the highway bridge overlooking Alto Tower taking pictures. A woman crossing the bridge asked me what I was doing. When I told her that I travelled form Chicago just to take pictures of trains, she was surprised. But then she said that it sounded like a nice leisure activity to persue. Ted M. Andrews Carmel, Indiana >From: Joseph Andrews >To: ndbprr@att.net, PRR-Talk >Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona museum >Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 05:31:12 -0700 (PDT) > >Yes, we hit the museum almost every time if time >permits and I always buy a book or a sweatshirt or >something even if I don't need the item. Another >interesting thing - we do shopping when we're in >Altoona. Prices seem to be better than in our part of >the state and stores (even grocery stores) seem to >have products that we don't see at home. On one >occasion in a Logan Valley Mall store, while chatting >with the sales girl we mentioned why we were visiting >Altoona and she was absolutely astounded. She had >lived her entire life in Altoona and this was the >first inkling she ever had that anyone would travel to >Altoona "just to see trains". >Joe >--- ndbprr@att.net wrote: > > My point is > > > that people will come to an area no matter how > > > "remote" if you give them a good enough reason > > > > How many of those people had out of state license > > plates? > > > > It is one thing to detour on a six hour drive. It > > is > > quite another to detour on a ten or 12 hour drive. > > You > > also didn't mention whether you visited the museum > > or > > not. Norm Bell > > > Re: the subject of Altoona being off the beaten > > path: > > > Whenever possible, on our trips from eastern PA to > > > Pittsburgh to see the Pirates play, we try to stop > > in > > > Altoona, go to the museum, the curve and whatever > > else > > > we have time for. We couldn't help but notice that > > > it's almost impossible to get a motel room on > > weekends > > > that Penn State is playing a home game. . > > > Joe > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > > > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit >http://lists.dsop.com. > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup >http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:18:24 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona museum Greetings to Chris and the List: The Altoona Railroads Memorial Museum already does pursue linkages like this with the Altoona Area School District and other districts. A couple of weeks ago while I was there doing research, two busloads of Hollidaysburg elementary students were visiting (they were eating their lunch next to the X29). Also, AASD has used museum staff as well as outside RR history specialists to present RR history seminars to social-studies and history teachers during in-service days. Dan Cupper -------------------------------------------- Chany, Christopher wrote: > > Joe wrote: > > "while chatting with the sales girl we mentioned why we were visiting > Altoona and she was absolutely astounded. She had > lived her entire life in Altoona and this was the > first inkling she ever had that anyone would travel to > Altoona "just to see trains"." > > My next question is does the young lady know the significance of the > "trains" to Altoona? If not maybe the museum can come up with a one day > program for the middle school and/or high school students history classes > that shows the importance of trains to their hometown. > > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 12:30:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona museum From: Jerry Britton On 6/21/02 12:18 PM, Dan Cupper (cupper@att.net) wrote: > The Altoona Railroads Memorial Museum already does pursue linkages like > this with the Altoona Area School District and other districts. A couple > of weeks ago while I was there doing research, two busloads of > Hollidaysburg elementary students were visiting (they were eating their > lunch next to the X29). Also, AASD has used museum staff as well as > outside RR history specialists to present RR history seminars to > social-studies and history teachers during in-service days. > Perhaps the museum should try marketing to schools that are further away...perhaps as far as 90 minutes. They could have school seminars in September/early October and provide free or very low cost admission to the museum for the students. While there, talk up RailFest and send them home with info to lure the entire family back. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona museum Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 17:53:22 +0000 While schools offer the possibility of future enthusiasts they don't solve the immediate prblem of revenues. If anything they require a larger expenditure to staff such events or programs. The immediate need is for revenue generation. Selling access to PRR or railroad related data or information is the only immediate thing I can think of. If they offered internet research for hourly fees many of us not in the area could do a lot more than we currently can. N Bell > On 6/21/02 12:18 PM, Dan Cupper (cupper@att.net) wrote: > > > The Altoona Railroads Memorial Museum already does pursue linkages like > > this with the Altoona Area School District and other districts. A couple > > of weeks ago while I was there doing research, two busloads of > > Hollidaysburg elementary students were visiting (they were eating their > > lunch next to the X29). Also, AASD has used museum staff as well as > > outside RR history specialists to present RR history seminars to > > social-studies and history teachers during in-service days. > > > Perhaps the museum should try marketing to schools that are further > away...perhaps as far as 90 minutes. They could have school seminars in > September/early October and provide free or very low cost admission to the > museum for the students. While there, talk up RailFest and send them home > with info to lure the entire family back. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Brass model boxes Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 18:02:20 +0000 I work for a company that produces foam cushioning for high value added items. I have access to polyurethane foam that is charcoal in color. Would anybody be interested in replacement foam for brass or other models for a $5.00 price plus shipping? I may also have the ability to replicate the original cutouts if a tracing is sent along with dimensions for an additional fee of a couple of dollars. Please contact me off line if such an idea appeals to anyone. Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] FD-2 Queen Mary Flat Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 14:59:14 -0400 Bruce, I feel the same as you, I think they should be black. Railworks has also a different build date compared to Bill's photos. The have it marked as 4-53 and Bill's photos show 4-52????? Sam V >From: "Bruce F. Smith" >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] FD-2 Queen Mary Flat >Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 08:01:35 -0500 > >Sam asks: > >I just received my Railworks HO Model today. It is factory painted but >they > >painted the trucks tuscan??? From Bill's photos the trucks look black or >a > >version of black. Am I correct? > >As I noted last week, every photo I have seen of this car shows black >trucks. Methinks Railworks missed on that detail however, a quick >airbrush job should fix the problem...BTW, the axles were NOT numbered in >the PRR era, so no need to worry about decaling the trucks once you're done >repainting them. > >Happy Rails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin >Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Sam Vastano McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. PH 724-368-8040 X243 Fax 724-368-9677 _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] research the PRR Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 19:29:43 +0000 I have asked this question on other boards and have never really gotten any definitive asnwer so I figured I would try it here. how does one go about researching information. I know that with access to LEwisburg and Altoona, the Hatley museum and other museums that information can be obtained. how does one know where to start? How does one find local information like what was the PRR like in Warsaw, Indiana in the 30's etc. Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 15:37:00 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] FD-2 Queen Mary Flat Bruce, Look at your basic PRR painting spec's for the time... If I am not mistaken you will find that they call for trucks to be paint PRR Freight car color unless repainted then they are to be painted black. But, from a modeler standpoint they should be a grimmy dark color regardless from weather and age. Once your ready to weather the car, and providing the car is going to show some miles on her, then try Testors #1188 Rubber in the ¼ oz. bottles and add ink to highlight the journals ect. Then a light coat of dust, this should do the trick and then let the guys agrue the color as you watch her roll past the near by township... 3^) Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 15:43:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] research the PRR From: Jerry Britton On 6/21/02 3:29 PM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > I have asked this question on other boards and have > never really gotten any definitive asnwer so I figured I > would try it here. how does one go about researching > information. I know that with access to LEwisburg and > Altoona, the Hatley museum and other museums that > information can be obtained. how does one know where to > start? How does one find local information like what > was the PRR like in Warsaw, Indiana in the 30's etc. That is probably one of several "Golden Questions". I have a major project I am trying to complete at this time, but afterwards I want to tackle at least some aspects of this. It's a shame, the museums and the government have TONS of info. But nobody knows how to get at it. You could take a day off and go to Hagley, for instance, and by closing time you might have just figured out -- more or less -- how the entire archive is structured. You'll walk away empty, but boggled by what all "must be there"! I've had such experiences doing genealogical work at the State Library of Pennsylvania, which isn't open on weekends. They have an entire special room on the subject, but it takes a full day to figure out what is there. Then you go back another time and actually start opening things. Since I am only 15 minutes from downtown Harrisburg, I will likely first tackle the state archives. It may help that one of the staffers is a Society member! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 13:17:42 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Wheeling Coal RR? Yesterday I was looking at an old map: Electric Railway Map of Pennsylvania Public Service Commission 1918 The title notwithstanding, the map showed steam railroads as well. According to the key, black lines indicated steam RR's, solid black line = existing, dotted line = under construction. In the lower left corner of the state, there was a dotted line which entered from the WVa panhandle running along Wheeling Creek which, in PA is also the Washington-Greene County line. It angled a bit northward into Wash. County and ended at Hackney, a station on the Waynesburg and Washington. The map didn't show enough of WVa to know where the western end would have been but Wheeling Creek does go to Wheeling (duh). The dotted line was marked "Wheeling Coal R. R. (P. R. R.)" That was the first I've heard of such a railroad. The current topographic maps show nothing. Does anyone know if it ever got beyond the talking stage? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 16:16:40 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] FD-2 Queen Mary Flat Greg sez: >Look at your basic PRR painting spec's for the time... If I am not >mistaken you will find that they call for trucks to be paint PRR Freight >car color unless repainted then they are to be painted black. They are definitely black in the builders photos and in every other photo I've seen. The most likely explanation of this deviance from specs is that the trucks were not new, but were re-used from T1 tenders. Interestingly, they are clearly newly painted in the builders shots. >But, from a modeler standpoint they should be a grimmy dark color >regardless from weather and age. Once your ready to weather the car, and >providing the car is going to show some miles on her, then try Testors >#1188 Rubber Yeah, its like the age old question - "was the bottom of that car black?"...well if it didn't start that way, it sure got that way pretty quick! Now the bad news...since 9-11 I can't get Testors paint shipped to me by Walthers! Seems they won't ship the volatile solvents...I made a "rubber" of my own with a 1 to 1 mix of Polyscale engine black and tarnished black...great color for weathering tank cars too! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] FD-2 Queen Mary Flat Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 14:29:00 -0700 Hi all! Unless there were some special instructions otherwise for this specific car, the following applies: "Trucks: On new cars the assembled trucks, new or reconditioned, except wheels, are to be painted with one coat of Hard Drying Black Enamel, Acct. 47, Ref. 2016. In the painting procedures that follow where mention is made to the painting of cars all over, trucks are not included as it is the intention that, except on new cars, the trucks be not painted." (date Jan 13, 1953) Have a good weekend! Elden -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 2:17 PM To: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] FD-2 Queen Mary Flat Greg sez: >Look at your basic PRR painting spec's for the time... If I am not >mistaken you will find that they call for trucks to be paint PRR Freight >car color unless repainted then they are to be painted black. They are definitely black in the builders photos and in every other photo I've seen. The most likely explanation of this deviance from specs is that the trucks were not new, but were re-used from T1 tenders. Interestingly, they are clearly newly painted in the builders shots. >But, from a modeler standpoint they should be a grimmy dark color >regardless from weather and age. Once your ready to weather the car, and >providing the car is going to show some miles on her, then try Testors >#1188 Rubber Yeah, its like the age old question - "was the bottom of that car black?"...well if it didn't start that way, it sure got that way pretty quick! Now the bad news...since 9-11 I can't get Testors paint shipped to me by Walthers! Seems they won't ship the volatile solvents...I made a "rubber" of my own with a 1 to 1 mix of Polyscale engine black and tarnished black...great color for weathering tank cars too! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 18:39:35 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] J-1 numbers Hi All, This is from my friend Jim Kindraka of River Raisin Models who is doing the J-1 in S Scale www.riverraisinmodels.com Please reply to him at raisinone@wideopenwest.com We realize the ratio of with and without antennas, however theirs will all have antennas. PRR J1 Engines, 65 total: 6150 - 6174; 6435 - 6474 PRR J1a Engines, 60 total: 6401 - 6434; 6475 - 6500 We will paint and letter three locomotive numbers, probably we'll do one J1a and 2 J1's. Since they will all have the antenna systems so I will have to find photographic proof that the engine number actually had the antennas. I have enough information to do that now, assuming I have the correct numbers assigned to J1's and J1a's. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 18:39:35 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] J-1 numbers Hi All, This is from my friend Jim Kindraka of River Raisin Models who is doing the J-1 in S Scale www.riverraisinmodels.com Please reply to him at raisinone@wideopenwest.com We realize the ratio of with and without antennas, however theirs will all have antennas. PRR J1 Engines, 65 total: 6150 - 6174; 6435 - 6474 PRR J1a Engines, 60 total: 6401 - 6434; 6475 - 6500 We will paint and letter three locomotive numbers, probably we'll do one J1a and 2 J1's. Since they will all have the antenna systems so I will have to find photographic proof that the engine number actually had the antennas. I have enough information to do that now, assuming I have the correct numbers assigned to J1's and J1a's. Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 20:03:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Trees at the Curve Just read a post on another forum that said the tree trimming had begun. Can anyone confirm this? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 20:32:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Trees at the Curve I hope that is true! The true wonder of the Curve has been hidden for too many years now. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 20:34:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] Huh? Excuse me, but where is ESSINGTON? I happen to be familiar with the PRR from Pittsburgh West, as far as I know, Altoona is near Valhalla, and the GG-1's operated in France. Just before our first PRRT&HS convention, at Strasburg, my brother proudly mentiomed that he'd managed to score reservations at the Holiday Inn. A friend, familiar with the area didn't remember a Holiday Inn. Sure enough, when our confirmation arrived, they had us in Sroudsburg which, I understand, is in a much different part of Pa. RR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 23:42:26 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona museum --part1_15c.f3b82bb.2a454c22_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Face it, the public in general believes that railroads are a thing of the past. Just wait until Amtrak is drastically downsized to experience what the public perception is. Unless you are a railfan, rail historian or a model railroader, you probably have no idea that there ever was a "Pennsylvania Railroad", as hard as that is for most of us to believe. Evan Leisey --part1_15c.f3b82bb.2a454c22_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Face it,  the public in general believes that railroads are a thing of the past.  Just wait until Amtrak is drastically downsized to experience what the public perception is.  Unless you are a railfan, rail historian or a model railroader,  you probably have no idea that there ever was a "Pennsylvania Railroad",  as hard as that is for most of us to believe.

Evan Leisey

--part1_15c.f3b82bb.2a454c22_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 02:47:31 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Magazines west In a message dated 6/19/02 1:11:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > > I should have stated the years. Sorry about that. The two consist > books I have in front of me right now are the 1964 and 1967 PRR East- > West Consist of Passenger Trains. This is the era I model. I had these > books out to see when PRR started to add "Flexi-Vans" to the consist of > the mail amd passenger trains. > Your books are earlier than mine so a lot of changes took place. I > too have heard that the symbol "X" is a sealed car. In the Oct. 64 book > the "X" symbol may mean sealed car. > On Train 3 (Penn Texas) states: "REX 8200 series cars, NEWSWEEK Mag. > to L.A." But has other MS60 codes with "X" behind them. > On Train 15, NY to Pittsburgh M&E, one of the MS60 (X) cars is marked > "Baby Chicks". > > Dave Hopson > PRRT&HS,PCRRHS > Thanks, Dave. The baby chicks is a provocative marking -- it's hard to believe this traffic was moving Railway Express in the 60's. It also raises the question of an express rider in that MS60 -- of course, almost by definition, you don't have express messengers in a "mail storage car", but if MS60 means having mail storage racks ("mail stanchions") and that helps you stack crates of live chicks, I guess you go with it. Oh yeah -- New York City is a strange point of origination for baby chicks. Looking at the REA 8200 car -- I'm guessing this is an ex-troop sleeper operated by REA (8263 is shown in Vic Roseman's REA book). Did this load of NEWSWEEKs for LA originate at NY Penn Station, or is it picked up at Dayton? Obviously it's routed on #3 via St. Louis. Incidentally, back in 1953, #4 (the eastbound Penn Texas) carried one to two B-60's of the Dayton-to-New York NEWSWEEK, switched in during the Dayton Station stop. Reason I ask is that many mags (including NEWSWEEK and US News and World Report) were printed in Dayton OH, loaded into headend equipment on Dayton Union Station's two northside express platform tracks, and headed for LA, Dallas, San Francisco etc. on PRR westbounds, interchanging at St. Louis. Both Chuck Hitchcock (of ATSF fame in Kansas City) and I have had a lot of fun modeling this headend traffic on our respective HO pikes. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Formerly operating the Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 02:47:31 EDT Subject: [PRR] Magazines west --part1_32.28b89873.2a457783_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/19/02 1:11:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > > I should have stated the years. Sorry about that. The two consist > books I have in front of me right now are the 1964 and 1967 PRR East- > West Consist of Passenger Trains. This is the era I model. I had these > books out to see when PRR started to add "Flexi-Vans" to the consist of > the mail amd passenger trains. > Your books are earlier than mine so a lot of changes took place. I > too have heard that the symbol "X" is a sealed car. In the Oct. 64 book > the "X" symbol may mean sealed car. > On Train 3 (Penn Texas) states: "REX 8200 series cars, NEWSWEEK Mag. > to L.A." But has other MS60 codes with "X" behind them. > On Train 15, NY to Pittsburgh M&E, one of the MS60 (X) cars is marked > "Baby Chicks". > > Dave Hopson > PRRT&HS,PCRRHS > Thanks, Dave. The baby chicks is a provocative marking -- it's hard to believe this traffic was moving Railway Express in the 60's. It also raises the question of an express rider in that MS60 -- of course, almost by definition, you don't have express messengers in a "mail storage car", but if MS60 means having mail storage racks ("mail stanchions") and that helps you stack crates of live chicks, I guess you go with it. Oh yeah -- New York City is a strange point of origination for baby chicks. Looking at the REA 8200 car -- I'm guessing this is an ex-troop sleeper operated by REA (8263 is shown in Vic Roseman's REA book). Did this load of NEWSWEEKs for LA originate at NY Penn Station, or is it picked up at Dayton? Obviously it's routed on #3 via St. Louis. Incidentally, back in 1953, #4 (the eastbound Penn Texas) carried one to two B-60's of the Dayton-to-New York NEWSWEEK, switched in during the Dayton Station stop. Reason I ask is that many mags (including NEWSWEEK and US News and World Report) were printed in Dayton OH, loaded into headend equipment on Dayton Union Station's two northside express platform tracks, and headed for LA, Dallas, San Francisco etc. on PRR westbounds, interchanging at St. Louis. Both Chuck Hitchcock (of ATSF fame in Kansas City) and I have had a lot of fun modeling this headend traffic on our respective HO pikes. Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Formerly operating the Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_32.28b89873.2a457783_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/19/02 1:11:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:




    I should have stated the years. Sorry about that. The two consist
books I have in front of me right now are the 1964 and 1967 PRR East-
West Consist of Passenger Trains. This is the era I model. I had these
books out to see when PRR started to add "Flexi-Vans" to the consist of
the mail amd passenger trains.
     Your books are earlier than mine so a lot of changes took place. I
too have heard that the symbol "X" is a sealed car. In the Oct. 64 book
the "X" symbol may mean sealed car.
    On Train 3 (Penn Texas) states: "REX 8200 series cars, NEWSWEEK Mag.
to L.A." But has other MS60 codes with "X" behind them.
   On Train 15, NY to Pittsburgh M&E, one of the MS60 (X) cars is marked
"Baby Chicks".

Dave Hopson
PRRT&HS,PCRRHS


Thanks, Dave.  The baby chicks is a provocative marking -- it's hard to believe this traffic was moving Railway Express in the 60's.  It also raises the question of an express rider in that MS60 -- of course, almost by definition, you don't have express messengers in a "mail storage car", but if MS60 means having mail storage racks ("mail stanchions") and that helps you stack crates of live chicks, I guess you go with it.  Oh yeah -- New York City is a strange point of origination for baby chicks.

Looking at the REA 8200 car -- I'm guessing this is an ex-troop sleeper operated by REA (8263 is shown in Vic Roseman's REA book).  Did this load of NEWSWEEKs for LA originate at NY Penn Station, or is it picked up at Dayton?  Obviously it's routed on #3 via St. Louis.  Incidentally, back in 1953, #4 (the eastbound Penn Texas) carried one to two B-60's of the Dayton-to-New York NEWSWEEK, switched in during the Dayton Station stop.

Reason I ask is that many mags (including NEWSWEEK and US News and World Report) were printed in Dayton OH, loaded into headend equipment on Dayton Union Station's two northside express platform tracks, and headed for LA, Dallas, San Francisco etc. on PRR westbounds, interchanging at St. Louis.  Both Chuck Hitchcock (of ATSF fame in Kansas City) and I have had a lot of fun modeling this headend traffic on our respective HO pikes.


                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Formerly operating the Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968)
                                    And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_32.28b89873.2a457783_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 07:36:38 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Thank you Rick Hi All, While I have had the new Keystone for over 1 week now, I have not had much of a chance to read it. Kudos to Rick Tipton for his excellent covered hopper article. They are worth their weight in gold to me. Coincidentally, I just finished my H30a when it arrived. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JM_CASSATT_JR@webtv.net (Jim Cassatt,Jr) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 08:18:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/21/02 One place to start for research is to obtain a copy of Dan Cupper's "The Pennsylvania Railroad It's place in History 1846-1996"" This book is an excellent research guide and will get you started in the right direction. Thomas Taber has a Railroad Periodicals Index book from 1831-1999. These two reference tools can get you started in the right direction. Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 07:36:38 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Thank you Rick Hi All, While I have had the new Keystone for over 1 week now, I have not had much of a chance to read it. Kudos to Rick Tipton for his excellent covered hopper article. They are worth their weight in gold to me. Coincidentally, I just finished my H30a when it arrived. Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:08:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Thank you Rick In a message dated 6/22/02 6:42:25 AM Central Daylight Time, billlane@comcast.net writes: << Kudos to Rick Tipton for his excellent covered hopper article. >> Not to resurrect a dead horse, but the first post on the list on this issue commented and had a question on the modeling article in the NX23. No quarrel with the information as such nor the author's talents, but this is a prime example of why I oppose modeling articles in the Keystone. That article will be out of date in a short time. The awesome article by Rick which covers the prototype covered hopper lettering schemes has immensely more material for modeling purposes which is timeless. Fortunately, the NX23 article didn't take up much space, but I hope it is not a trend. I keep many prototype magazines---only clip a few articles from model magazines. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Today's Railroads (was Altoona Museum) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:41:37 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C219D9.62AB8240 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Actually, I believe the railroads haul more ton miles of freight today = than they did at the height of the mighty PRR. It's just that with = computers, radios, and other technology we do it with fewer tracks, = larger freight cars, much heavier and longer trains, higher speeds (for = freight - no drag era on the UP triple track) longer divisions, longer = blocks (distances between signals) fewer division point inspections, = smaller train crews, virtually no towers and block stations, many fewer = employees, and many fewer stops for re-classification of cars. Now, = that all greatly reduces the appeal for railfans, but the railroads are = indeed alive and well. Just one SPF's opinion. Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RDG2124@aol.com=20 To: cpc1@westchestergov.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 11:42 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona museum Face it, the public in general believes that railroads are a thing of = the past. Just wait until Amtrak is drastically downsized to experience = what the public perception is. Unless you are a railfan, rail historian = or a model railroader, you probably have no idea that there ever was a = "Pennsylvania Railroad", as hard as that is for most of us to believe.=20 Evan Leisey=20 ------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C219D9.62AB8240 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Actually, I believe the railroads haul more ton = miles of=20 freight today than they did at the height of the mighty PRR.  It's = just=20 that with computers, radios, and other technology we do it with fewer = tracks,=20 larger freight cars, much heavier and longer trains, higher speeds (for = freight=20 - no drag era on the UP triple track) longer divisions, longer blocks = (distances=20 between signals) fewer division point inspections, smaller train crews,=20 virtually no towers and block stations, many fewer employees, and many = fewer=20 stops for re-classification of cars.  Now, that all greatly reduces = the=20 appeal for railfans, but the railroads are indeed alive and = well.
 
Just one SPF's opinion.
 
Bill Bigler
Modeling PRR Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport WWII
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com=20
To: cpc1@westchestergov.com ; = PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 = 11:42=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona = museum

Face it, =  the=20 public in general believes that railroads are a thing of the past. =  Just=20 wait until Amtrak is drastically downsized to experience what the = public=20 perception is.  Unless you are a railfan, rail historian or a = model=20 railroader,  you probably have no idea that there ever was a=20 "Pennsylvania Railroad",  as hard as that is for most of us to = believe.=20

Evan Leisey

------=_NextPart_000_002F_01C219D9.62AB8240-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: Re: [PRR] research the PRR Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 11:27:47 -0400 Gents; I would go one step further with this research issue. As an example; I re entered the relm of trains after a 40 year absence about 2.5 years ago.....For a new guy on the block, just FINDING where the collections and archieves are a BIG pain! This is especially true for the PRR items because there is apparently so much out there not collated in one place. Seems half the fun of this hobby is "the thrill of the hunt" for prototypical information but it does take a lot of time even with computers. As Jerry stated, once a "gold mine" (since I am new, it kinda feels like that) is found, what do they have and how do you cut "to the quick" to access it?? I live 4 hours (lines) WEST of Altoona but find myself going back there once or twice a year just to learn more of the PRR in general. Looks like Harrisburg is next as I have found the Pa. State Archieves........while I am on the "podium" here, where else is/are there information "gold mines" on the prr? The various websites; The Hagely; Pa., State Archieves; Lewistown; some Smithsonian sources?? I am mainly refering to drawings and rolling stock photos at this point. There doesn't seem to be ONE place to start at on the onfo pyrimid. Thankfully, computers let me find you guys which is but one leg of that huge pyrimid. New guys certainly could use a checklist!! Earl Myers PRRT&HS Member (Lines West) New member, BoD CRPS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 3:43 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] research the PRR > On 6/21/02 3:29 PM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > > > I have asked this question on other boards and have > > never really gotten any definitive asnwer so I figured I > > would try it here. how does one go about researching > > information. I know that with access to LEwisburg and > > Altoona, the Hatley museum and other museums that > > information can be obtained. how does one know where to > > start? How does one find local information like what > > was the PRR like in Warsaw, Indiana in the 30's etc. > > That is probably one of several "Golden Questions". > > I have a major project I am trying to complete at this time, but afterwards > I want to tackle at least some aspects of this. > > It's a shame, the museums and the government have TONS of info. But nobody > knows how to get at it. > > You could take a day off and go to Hagley, for instance, and by closing time > you might have just figured out -- more or less -- how the entire archive is > structured. You'll walk away empty, but boggled by what all "must be there"! > > I've had such experiences doing genealogical work at the State Library of > Pennsylvania, which isn't open on weekends. They have an entire special room > on the subject, but it takes a full day to figure out what is there. Then > you go back another time and actually start opening things. > > Since I am only 15 minutes from downtown Harrisburg, I will likely first > tackle the state archives. It may help that one of the staffers is a Society > member! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Today's Railroads (was Altoona Museum) Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 12:16:43 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C219E6.AC00C7E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill, what you say about the volume of freight is trus in absolute = terms, however, as a percentage of the total volume shipped, the = railroad share has continued to decline. The Penn Central, with its = emphasis on the "major shippers", ran off a lot of the PRR's smaller = customers. Conrail, by taking over only certain lines, ran off a great = deal more. When railroad marketing and prticing were deregulated in = 1980, the existing managers were ill-equipped to work a price driven = environment, and the new hires had absolutely no understanding of the = transportation marketplace (Believe me, it ain't like selling soap to = consumers!) The disinterest in railroads by the "public" began when Amtrak took over = passenger operations, as this was always the only interface the general = public ever had with the PRR. The railroads are "alive", but they definitely aren't "well", as current = pricing levels are insufficient to justify replacement of equipment as = it wears out. Just the opinions of a former PRR sales and marketing = type! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: William Bigler=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; cpc1@westchestergov.com ; RDG2124@aol.com=20 Cc: Al Werner ; Dick Perry=20 Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2002 10:41 AM Subject: [PRR] Today's Railroads (was Altoona Museum) Actually, I believe the railroads haul more ton miles of freight today = than they did at the height of the mighty PRR. It's just that with = computers, radios, and other technology we do it with fewer tracks, = larger freight cars, much heavier and longer trains, higher speeds (for = freight - no drag era on the UP triple track) longer divisions, longer = blocks (distances between signals) fewer division point inspections, = smaller train crews, virtually no towers and block stations, many fewer = employees, and many fewer stops for re-classification of cars. Now, = that all greatly reduces the appeal for railfans, but the railroads are = indeed alive and well. Just one SPF's opinion. Bill Bigler Modeling PRR Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RDG2124@aol.com=20 To: cpc1@westchestergov.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 11:42 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona museum Face it, the public in general believes that railroads are a thing = of the past. Just wait until Amtrak is drastically downsized to = experience what the public perception is. Unless you are a railfan, = rail historian or a model railroader, you probably have no idea that = there ever was a "Pennsylvania Railroad", as hard as that is for most = of us to believe.=20 Evan Leisey=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C219E6.AC00C7E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bill, what you say about the volume of freight is = trus in=20 absolute terms, however, as a percentage of the total volume shipped, = the=20 railroad share has continued to decline. The Penn Central, with its = emphasis on=20 the "major shippers", ran off a lot of the PRR's smaller customers. = Conrail, by=20 taking over only certain lines, ran off a great deal more. When railroad = marketing and prticing were deregulated in 1980, the existing managers = were=20 ill-equipped to work a price driven environment, and the new hires had=20 absolutely no understanding of the transportation marketplace (Believe = me, it=20 ain't like selling soap to consumers!)
 
The disinterest in railroads by the "public" began = when Amtrak=20 took over passenger operations, as this was always the only interface = the=20 general public ever had with the PRR.
 
The railroads are "alive", but they definitely = aren't "well",=20 as current  pricing levels are insufficient to justify replacement = of=20 equipment as it wears out.  Just the opinions of a former PRR sales = and=20 marketing type!
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 William=20 Bigler
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; cpc1@westchestergov.com ; = RDG2124@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2002 = 10:41=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] Today's = Railroads (was=20 Altoona Museum)

Actually, I believe the railroads haul more = ton miles of=20 freight today than they did at the height of the mighty PRR.  = It's just=20 that with computers, radios, and other technology we do it with fewer = tracks,=20 larger freight cars, much heavier and longer trains, higher speeds = (for=20 freight - no drag era on the UP triple track) longer divisions, longer = blocks=20 (distances between signals) fewer division point inspections, smaller = train=20 crews, virtually no towers and block stations, many fewer employees, = and many=20 fewer stops for re-classification of cars.  Now, that all greatly = reduces=20 the appeal for railfans, but the railroads are indeed alive and=20 well.
 
Just one SPF's opinion.
 
Bill Bigler
Modeling PRR Renovo=20 &
     Williamsport WWII
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com=20
To: cpc1@westchestergov.com = ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2002 = 11:42=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona = museum

Face it, =  the=20 public in general believes that railroads are a thing of the past.=20  Just wait until Amtrak is drastically downsized to experience = what the=20 public perception is.  Unless you are a railfan, rail historian = or a=20 model railroader,  you probably have no idea that there ever = was a=20 "Pennsylvania Railroad",  as hard as that is for most of us to = believe.=20

Evan Leisey=20

------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C219E6.AC00C7E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 12:38:07 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Today's Railroads Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > Bill, what you say about the volume of freight is trus in absolute > terms, however, as a percentage of the total volume shipped, the > railroad share has continued to decline. RR share is rising, roughly equal to trucks, at 33%, and taking share from trucks. This is tonne-mi basis. The stats can be done by dollar value of cargo (rail loses: one does not ship a packet of diamonds by rail. Mostly). So one needs to say which measure. Ton-mile basis, US rail is taking share from trucks. > The disinterest in railroads by the "public" began when Amtrak took over > passenger operations, as this was always the only interface the general > public ever had with the PRR. I suggest 'the railraods' may ne be qual to 'PRR'. I suggest, further, that the public abandoned (largely) rail for cars (later: a/c) for personal travel from 1920ish on. cf any referenc ebook. > The railroads are "alive", but they definitely aren't "well", as > current pricing levels are insufficient to justify replacement of > equipment as it wears out. This will come as a shock to the RRs which have been paying dividends, taxes and world class wages. cf the stock prices (not an absolute index, but part of the mix.) Whether the ton-milage is up or down, relative to some past point, i can't say. TO the extent that they pay taxes, wages, and take traffic NOW from trucks, i suggest they are sucessful. To the extent that the (freight) RRs have not (as the airlines) run bleating for fed subsisides, i suggest they must be succeeding at SOMETHING. I suspect the ton-mile (or dollar-mile) split to rail is down from, say 50 years, or 75 years, ago. The modal split is different going to change. I suggest (as above) _freight_ rail is succesful, and growing. (The stats are accurate, tho i lack a convenient cite.) best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 12:59:44 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] More FD-2 photos Hi All, In the last installment of the FD-2 photo Giveaway Sweepstakes, I present to you for your downloading pleasure 3 more photos. They are an 8 x 10 600 DPI file each, so AOL and dial up users will have to wait a little while for the reward. Download and safe folks. This is a limited time offer, though not valid in Pennsylvania, New Jersey and parts of Grand Rapids Michigan. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/FD2pose.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/FD2unload1.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/FD2unload2.jpg Enjoy! Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 12:55:18 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Huh? VVA249 said> "Excuse me, but where is ESSINGTON?" =============================================== Direct from the May 2002 edition of the PRRT&HS e-NEWS 2003 ANNUAL MEETING Philadelphia Chapter President Al Giannantonio reports that the 2003 meeting will be held at the Ramada Inn in Essington, PA, which is just south of the Philadelphia Airport on I-95 near the old Baldwin Locomotive Works. The meeting will be held from noon Thursday, 1 May through Saturday evening, 3 May. Details will be posted in the following months. Any one interested in making a presentation should contact e-NEWS editor Al Buchan who will be organizing the program again this year. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Today's Railroads Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 13:28:26 -0400 Dave, All you have to look at is the average age of many types of freight cars. The vast majority of boxcars are over 30 years old. Covered hoppers aren't much better when you look at the railroad-marked fleet. I was directly involved in negotiating freight rates and car hire rates for the Apalachicola Northern Railroad and freight rates for St. Joe Forest Products Co., so have direct experience in the field. Therer are large chunks of current rail traffic that aren't paying their fully allocated costs and as long as the trucks and barges operate on heavily subsidized rights of way this will be the case. When the cars wear out, the railroads will forfeit this traffic. We as taxpayers pay almost $20,000 per bargeload to move barges on the Apalachicola-Flint-Chattahoochee Rivers system! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "davep" Cc: "William Bigler" ; ; ; ; "Al Werner" ; "Dick Perry" Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2002 12:38 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Today's Railroads > Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > > Bill, what you say about the volume of freight is trus in absolute > > terms, however, as a percentage of the total volume shipped, the > > railroad share has continued to decline. > > > RR share is rising, roughly equal to trucks, at 33%, > and taking share from trucks. This is tonne-mi basis. > The stats can be done by dollar value of cargo (rail > loses: one does not ship a packet of diamonds by rail. > Mostly). So one needs to say which measure. Ton-mile > basis, US rail is taking share from trucks. > > > > The disinterest in railroads by the "public" began when Amtrak took over > > passenger operations, as this was always the only interface the general > > public ever had with the PRR. > > > I suggest 'the railraods' may ne be qual to 'PRR'. > I suggest, further, that the public abandoned (largely) > rail for cars (later: a/c) for personal travel from > 1920ish on. cf any referenc ebook. > > > > The railroads are "alive", but they definitely aren't "well", as > > current pricing levels are insufficient to justify replacement of > > equipment as it wears out. > > This will come as a shock to the RRs which have been paying > dividends, taxes and world class wages. cf the stock > prices (not an absolute index, but part of the mix.) > > Whether the ton-milage is up or down, relative to some > past point, i can't say. TO the extent that they > pay taxes, wages, and take traffic NOW from trucks, > i suggest they are sucessful. To the extent that the > (freight) RRs have not (as the airlines) run bleating > for fed subsisides, i suggest they must be succeeding > at SOMETHING. > > I suspect the ton-mile (or dollar-mile) split to rail is > down from, say 50 years, or 75 years, ago. The modal > split is different going to change. I suggest (as above) > _freight_ rail is succesful, and growing. (The stats > are accurate, tho i lack a convenient cite.) > > best > dwp > > ...the net of a million lies... > Vernor Vinge > There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. > -me > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 10:48:07 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Magazines west Hi everyone, Pardon my ignorance, but where is Pittsburgh M&E? I know where Pittsburgh is, but M&E? - Claus From: RickTipton@aol.com Date sent: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 02:47:31 EDT Subject: [PRR] Magazines west To: zootowerprr@webtv.net, PRR-Talk@dsop.com, PennsyWest@egroups.com, PRR@egroups.com, PRR-Modeling@egroups.com > In a message dated 6/19/02 1:11:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > > > > > > > I should have stated the years. Sorry about that. The two consist > > books I have in front of me right now are the 1964 and 1967 PRR East- > > West Consist of Passenger Trains. This is the era I model. I had these > > books out to see when PRR started to add "Flexi-Vans" to the consist of > > the mail amd passenger trains. > > Your books are earlier than mine so a lot of changes took place. I > > too have heard that the symbol "X" is a sealed car. In the Oct. 64 book > > the "X" symbol may mean sealed car. > > On Train 3 (Penn Texas) states: "REX 8200 series cars, NEWSWEEK Mag. > > to L.A." But has other MS60 codes with "X" behind them. > > On Train 15, NY to Pittsburgh M&E, one of the MS60 (X) cars is marked > > "Baby Chicks". > > > > Dave Hopson > > PRRT&HS,PCRRHS > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 12:59:44 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] More FD-2 photos Hi All, In the last installment of the FD-2 photo Giveaway Sweepstakes, I present to you for your downloading pleasure 3 more photos. They are an 8 x 10 600 DPI file each, so AOL and dial up users will have to wait a little while for the reward. Download and safe folks. This is a limited time offer, though not valid in Pennsylvania, New Jersey and parts of Grand Rapids Michigan. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/FD2pose.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/FD2unload1.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/FD2unload2.jpg Enjoy! Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 16:20:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Magazines west --part1_39.28f0b5cd.2a463618_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The reference means a New York-to-Pittsburgh Mail & Express train. --part1_39.28f0b5cd.2a463618_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The reference means a New York-to-Pittsburgh Mail & Express train. --part1_39.28f0b5cd.2a463618_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Today's Railroads Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 15:59:35 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C21A05.CE2B5460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 Greg wrote: "All you have to look at is the average age of many types of = freight cars. The vast majority of boxcars are over 30 years old. Covered hoppers aren'= t much better when you look at the railroad-marked fleet". =20 Could one big factor be that cars since the 1960's are better built than = their counterparts in the first half of the 20th century? When I worked f= or Conrail in the mid-80's, Conrail was both buying new auto boxcars but = also rebuilding their 60-foot and 86-foot boxcar fleets. Many of these ca= rs were former PRR built in the '50's and '60's; they are still in servic= e for both the NS and CSX. Likewise, many of the Trailer - Train 89' flat= cars from the 1960's are still in service. =20 I don't know if the there is a reluctance by the modern railroads to repl= ace cars that currently meet needs, especially if they can be re-built fo= r extended service lives. I think you are right about the state-subsidized airlines and barges that= the public pays. I railroads may be getting some type of assistance but = it is nowhere close the what the trucks, barges, and airlines get. I also think that the railroad management in today's railroads are incred= ibly short sighted and never plan out 5 to 10 years into the future. I re= ally believe that they are willing to sell out a portion of next years pr= ofits just to satisfy the shareholders for the present quarter. Apparentl= y, the are some investors who think that railroads can be like tech and d= ot.com stocks with double-digit profits......even though railroads have h= istorically had low rates of return. My two cents worth.... Ted Andrews =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C21A05.CE2B5460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
<= DIV> 
=

Greg wrote: "All you have to look at is the average age of many types= of freight cars.
The vast majority of boxcars are over 30 years old. = Covered hoppers aren't
much better when you look at the railroad-marke= d fleet".

Could one big factor be that cars since the 1960's are = better built than their counterparts in the first half of the 20th centur= y? When I worked for Conrail in the mid-80's, Conrail was both buying new= auto boxcars but also rebuilding their 60-foot and 86-foot boxcar fleets= . Many of these cars were former PRR built in the '50's and '60's; they&n= bsp;are still in service for both the NS and CSX. Likewise, many of the T= railer - Train 89' flatcars from the 1960's are still in service.

I don't know if the there is a reluctance by the modern railroads to rep= lace cars that currently meet needs, especially if they can be re-built f= or extended service lives.

I think you are right about the state-s= ubsidized airlines and barges that the public pays. I railroads may be ge= tting some type of assistance but it is nowhere close the what the trucks= , barges, and airlines get.

I also think that the railroad managem= ent in today's railroads are incredibly short sighted and never plan out = 5 to 10 years into the future. I really believe that they are willing to = sell out a portion of next years profits just to satisfy the shareholders= for the present quarter. Apparently, the are some investors who think th= at railroads can be like tech and dot.com stocks with double-digit profit= s......even though railroads have historically had low rates of return.

My two cents worth....

 

Ted Andrews

&nbs= p;

 

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C21A05.CE2B5460-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 14:31:39 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Magazines west --- RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > Thanks, Dave. The baby chicks is a provocative > marking -- it's hard to > believe this traffic was moving Railway Express in > the 60's. I can't speak for the 60's, but in the 50's my grandfather was still getting chicks by US Mail. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Magazines west Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 18:00:13 -0400 Chicks by US Mail? Now that program I've got to try! Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: ; ; ; ; ; Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2002 5:31 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Magazines west > --- RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > > Thanks, Dave. The baby chicks is a provocative > > marking -- it's hard to > > believe this traffic was moving Railway Express in > > the 60's. > > I can't speak for the 60's, but in the 50's my > grandfather was still getting chicks by US Mail. > > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 18:00:13 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Magazines west Chicks by US Mail? Now that program I've got to try! Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" Subject: Re: [PRR] Magazines west > I can't speak for the 60's, but in the 50's my grandfather was still getting > chicks by US Mail. > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 17:23:42 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Today's Railroads From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3107611422_467975_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ted Andrews said: >I don't know if the there is a reluctance by the modern railroads to replace cars that currently meet needs, especially if they can be re-built for extended service lives. < Maybe some are reluctant, but BNSF is not. They have had hundreds of monster covered hoppers built since 1999. I forget the overall length, but they are so large, and carry so much grain, that they tear up the rails because of their weight. And the cars themselves are in for repair pretty often. Trinity Rail Service in Galveston usually has one or two of them in the shop for repair at any given time. Don Harper --MS_Mac_OE_3107611422_467975_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] Today's Railroads
Ted Andrews said:

>I don't know if the there is a reluctance by the modern railroads to re= place cars that currently meet needs, especially if they can be re-built for= extended service lives. <

Maybe some are reluctant, but BNSF is not.  They have had hundreds of = monster covered hoppers built since 1999.  I forget the overall length,= but they are so large, and carry so much grain, that they tear up the rails= because of their weight.  And the cars themselves are in for repair pr= etty often.  Trinity Rail Service in Galveston usually has one or two o= f them in the shop for repair at any given time.

Don Harper

 

--MS_Mac_OE_3107611422_467975_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: [PRR] Life Like Proto 1000 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 18:15:23 -0500 Hi Listers, I have a question, re.problem, with the Proto 1000 engines. I own a C-Liner. There are several different friends of mine that have the F-3's and Erie builts. In all, there are 29 powered locos between us. We have DCC and know how to "manipulate the cv's". All the locos run like Jackrabbits. None of the Life Like Proto 2000's run this badly. We contacted Life Like with no response. So, who among you can help? We want to get better control of these locos. Those of you that can "manipulate the cv's on DCC", please help! Give some specific directions on which cv's have what values? Thanks in advance. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist! PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! And Here's Hoping You Can Keep The Wheels On The Rails! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like Proto 1000 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 21:03:21 -0400 Morgan: Are you MUing these locos? If you are, they will buck terribly when going down grade. Also, what decoder are you using? I have P1K C-Lines MU'd in a ABA set that were running very badly. I have since changed over to Lenz back EMF decoders and they now run extremely well. I have change ALL of my Protos over with excellant results. I have also changed over most of my steam to BEMF decoders and the results are to die for! I run with a Digitrax Chief system, but swear by the Lenz BEMF decoder. Try them, you wont want anything else. Larry Reynolds ----- Original Message ----- From: PennsyNut To: ; Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2002 7:15 PM Subject: [PRR] Life Like Proto 1000 > Hi Listers, > > I have a question, re.problem, with the Proto 1000 engines. I own a > C-Liner. There are several different friends of mine that have the F-3's > and Erie builts. In all, there are 29 powered locos between us. We have > DCC and know how to "manipulate the cv's". All the locos run like > Jackrabbits. None of the Life Like Proto 2000's run this badly. We > contacted Life Like with no response. > > So, who among you can help? We want to get better control of these locos. > Those of you that can "manipulate the cv's on DCC", please help! > > Give some specific directions on which cv's have what values? > > Thanks in advance. > > Morgan Bilbo > Ferroequinologist! > PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! > And Here's Hoping You Can Keep The Wheels On The Rails! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like Proto 1000 Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 21:09:40 -0400 Morgan: Are you MUing these locos? If you are, they will buck terribly when going down grade. Also, what decoder are you using? I have P1K C-Lines MU'd in a ABA set that were running very badly. I have since changed over to Lenz back EMF decoders and they now run extremely well. I have change ALL of my Protos over with excellent results. I have also changed over most of my steam to BEMF decoders and the results are to die for! I run with a Digitrax Chief system, but swear by the Lenz BEMF decoder. Try them, you wont want anything else. Larry Reynolds ----- Original Message ----- From: PennsyNut To: ; Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2002 7:15 PM Subject: [PRR] Life Like Proto 1000 > Hi Listers, > > I have a question, re.problem, with the Proto 1000 engines. I own a > C-Liner. There are several different friends of mine that have the F-3's > and Erie builts. In all, there are 29 powered locos between us. We have > DCC and know how to "manipulate the cv's". All the locos run like > Jackrabbits. None of the Life Like Proto 2000's run this badly. We > contacted Life Like with no response. > > So, who among you can help? We want to get better control of these locos. > Those of you that can "manipulate the cv's on DCC", please help! > > Give some specific directions on which cv's have what values? > > Thanks in advance. > > Morgan Bilbo > Ferroequinologist! > PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! > And Here's Hoping You Can Keep The Wheels On The Rails! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 21:18:37 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Today's Railroads In a message dated 6/22/02 5:11:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Ted_Andrews@msn.com writes: << Could one big factor be that cars since the 1960's are better built than their counterparts in the first half of the 20th century? >> I have to disagree with this statement - PRR had the reputation of totally overbuilding it's cars and rebuilding them as necessary. Pennsy classes GS and H-21 (or their 3 bay rebuilds) would probably be running today if it were not for the more recently enacted mandatory retirement rules ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 21:55:06 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like Proto 1000 --------------Boundary-00=_UNY4G6G0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Larry, and Guys, The July issue of Railroad Model Craftsman has an arti= cle about "back emf". The article is an ongoing series about DCC by Don Fiehmann. The P1k issue is addrerssed at length. It may be worth it to check it out. Jim Lash=0D =0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: Larry Reynolds=0D Date: Saturday, June 22, 2002 9:13:14 PM=0D To: PennsyNut; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; prr-modeling@yahoogroups.com=0D Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like Proto 1000=0D =0D Morgan:=0D =0D Are you MUing these locos? If you are, they will buck terribly when going= =0D down grade. Also, what decoder are you using? I have P1K C-Lines MU'd in = a=0D ABA set that were running very badly. I have since changed over to Lenz=0D back EMF decoders and they now run extremely well. I have change ALL of m= y=0D Protos over with excellent results. I have also changed over most of my=0D steam to BEMF decoders and the results are to die for! I run with a=0D Digitrax Chief system, but swear by the Lenz BEMF decoder. Try them, you=0D wont want anything else.=0D =0D Larry Reynolds=0D =0D =0D ----- Original Message -----=0D From: PennsyNut =0D To: ; =0D Sent: Saturday, June 22, 2002 7:15 PM=0D Subject: [PRR] Life Like Proto 1000=0D =0D =0D > Hi Listers,=0D >=0D > I have a question, re.problem, with the Proto 1000 engines. I own a=0D > C-Liner. There are several different friends of mine that have the F-3'= s=0D > and Erie builts. In all, there are 29 powered locos between us. We have= =0D > DCC and know how to "manipulate the cv's". All the locos run like=0D > Jackrabbits. None of the Life Like Proto 2000's run this badly. We=0D > contacted Life Like with no response.=0D >=0D > So, who among you can help? We want to get better control of these loco= s.=0D > Those of you that can "manipulate the cv's on DCC", please help!=0D >=0D > Give some specific directions on which cv's have what values?=0D >=0D > Thanks in advance.=0D >=0D > Morgan Bilbo=0D > Ferroequinologist!=0D > PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut!=0D > And Here's Hoping You Can Keep The Wheels On The Rails!=0D >=0D > -----------------------------------------------------------------------= =0D > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=0D =0D =0D -----------------------------------------------------------------------=0D For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=0D =0D =2E --------------Boundary-00=_UNY4G6G0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0A
Larry, and Guys,   The July issue of Railroad Model=20 Craftsman has an article about "back emf".  The article is an = ongoing=20 series about DCC by Don Fiehmann.  The P1k issue is addrerssed= at=20 length.  It may be worth it to check it out.  Jim Lash
 
-------Original Message-------<= /I>
 
From: Larry Reynolds
Date: Saturd= ay, June=20 22, 2002 9:13:14 PM
To: PennsyNut; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; prr-modeling@yahoogrou= ps.com
Subject: Re:= [PRR] Life=20 Like Proto 1000
 
Morgan:

Are you MUing these locos? If you a= re,=20 they will buck terribly when going
down grade. Also, what decode= r are=20 you using? I have P1K C-Lines MU'd in a
ABA set that were runnin= g very=20 badly. I have since changed over to Lenz
back EMF decoders and t= hey now=20 run extremely well. I have change ALL of my
Protos over with exc= ellent=20 results. I have also changed over most of my
steam to BEMF decod= ers and=20 the results are to die for! I run with a
Digitrax Chief system, = but=20 swear by the Lenz BEMF decoder. Try them, you
wont want anything= =20 else.

Larry Reynolds


----- Original Message=20 -----
From: PennsyNut <PennsyNut@hotmail.com>=
To:=20 <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>;= <prr-modeling@yahoogrou= ps.com>
Sent:=20 Saturday, June 22, 2002 7:15 PM
Subject: [PRR] Life Like Proto=20 1000


> Hi Listers,
>
> I have a question,= =20 re.problem, with the Proto 1000 engines. I own a
> C-Liner. T= here=20 are several different friends of mine that have the F-3's
> a= nd Erie=20 builts. In all, there are 29 powered locos between us. We have
&= gt; DCC=20 and know how to "manipulate the cv's". All the locos run like
&g= t;=20 Jackrabbits. None of the Life Like Proto 2000's run this badly. We<= BR>>=20 contacted Life Like with no response.
>
> So, who among= you=20 can help? We want to get better control of these locos.
> Tho= se of=20 you that can "manipulate the cv's on DCC", please help!
>
= >=20 Give some specific directions on which cv's have what=20 values?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Morgan=20 Bilbo
> Ferroequinologist!
> PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, An= d a=20 true Pennsy Nut!
> And Here's Hoping You Can Keep The Wheels = On The=20 Rails!
>
>=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------= ----
>=20 For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

.<= /TD>
=09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09
--------------Boundary-00=_UNY4G6G0000000000000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 23:46:57 -0400 From: Ken Meyer Subject: [PRR] Timonium, MD Show Did anyone attend the Great Scale Train Show in Timoniun, MD this week? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 00:05:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Timonium, MD Show I was there this morning. The usual crowd. I saw the new HO PRR SD35 by Atlas. It looked nice. I thought the new book about PRR's E7/E8s would be out, it's not. Lots of good stuff to buy. Not enough money. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 01:20:35 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like Proto 1000 In a message dated 6/22/02 8:17:42 PM Central Daylight Time, pennsyrr@rcn.com writes: << I have since changed over to Lenz back EMF decoders and they now run extremely well. >> I have tried just about every combination of CV values to get these POS to run right. Do the back EMF decoders solve the jackrabbit problem or just the MU backlashing? Even the latter sounds intriguing since my E7's run smoothly but don't MU well together. The Erie-builts, however, don't even run adequately as a single unit---baffling as it is the only loco I have among about 30 with decoders that behaves that way. And I am talking about P2K, Atlas, Mashima, Stewart, old Atlas-Kato, Walthers, Bachmann Spectrum , NWSL-powered steamers, Helix-humper-powered steamers, Athearn Genesis, Model Power new and old. I am intrigued by the other post about the RMC article---haven't read the magazine in about 5 years---guess I'll pick it up. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: [PRR] Life Like and Decoders Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 00:22:27 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C21A4C.0DFCC060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Listers, Larry & Jim, Sorry about not including enough details. My C-Liner has a Digitrax = DH121. Some of the others have different decoders, not sure about Lenz. = My question is not about decoders. And, we are aware of "backlash" in = multi-unit lash-ups. As a matter of fact, the F-3's in an A-B-A lash-up = runs okay - except for the following. Take any LLP1 engine, put it on the track, and it runs like a scared = jackrabbit. Top speed over 100 mph. Install a decoder, try to cut the = top voltage in half (as in cv 05 set at 128), like 8 volts (remember DCC = has 16 volts on the rail), and it still runs rapid. Also, turn the = throttle up one or two "notches" or "marks on the dial" of a controller, = and it's already running fast. In other words, I can not get it to = start slow and increase speed gradually. It runs too fast at too soon a = throttle setting. Is this clear? And, the owners of the F-3 and Erie Built both experience the same = problem. We all run our trains at quarter throttle to keep the speed = realistic. Remember SPF's, the freight engines were geared for 50 mph. = So you don't want to be running a 20 car freight train with one unit at = 70 or 100 mph. And I will say one thing, the C-Liner with 10 to 20 cars = and an N-6 with lit markers looks fantastic, turn the lights down low to = get the effect of the lights and WOW! And just to make this all the more frustrating, is that the LLP2 engines = don't seem to have this problem. And did Life Like tell us they are the = same mechanisms in both LLP1 and LLP2? I don't think so! Thanks again in advance! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist! PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C21A4C.0DFCC060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Listers, Larry & = Jim,
 
Sorry about not including enough = details.  My C-Liner has a Digitrax DH121.  Some of the others = have=20 different decoders, not sure about Lenz.  My question is not about=20 decoders.  And, we are aware of "backlash" in multi-unit = lash-ups.  As=20 a matter of fact, the F-3's in an A-B-A lash-up runs okay - except for = the=20 following.
 
Take any LLP1 engine, put it on = the track,=20 and it runs like a scared jackrabbit.  Top speed over 100 = mph. =20 Install a decoder, try to cut the top voltage in half (as in cv 05 set = at 128),=20 like 8 volts (remember DCC has 16 volts on the rail), and it still runs=20 rapid.  Also, turn the throttle up one or two "notches" or "marks = on the=20 dial" of a controller, and it's already running fast.  In other = words, I=20 can not get it to start slow and increase speed gradually.  It runs = too=20 fast at too soon a throttle setting.  Is this clear?
 
And, the owners of the F-3 and = Erie Built=20 both experience the same problem.  We all run our trains at quarter = throttle to keep the speed realistic.  Remember SPF's, the freight = engines=20 were geared for 50 mph.  So you don't want to be running a 20 car = freight=20 train with one unit at 70 or 100 mph.  And I will say one thing, = the=20 C-Liner with 10 to 20 cars and an N-6 with lit markers looks fantastic, = turn the=20 lights down low to get the effect of the lights and WOW!
 
And just to make this all the = more=20 frustrating, is that the LLP2 engines don't seem to have this = problem.  And=20 did Life Like tell us they are the same mechanisms in both LLP1 and = LLP2? =20 I don't think so!
 
Thanks again in = advance!
 
Morgan=20 Bilbo
Ferroequinologist!
PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy = Nut!
------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C21A4C.0DFCC060-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 01:35:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] Life Like and Decoders In a message dated 6/23/02 12:27:55 AM Central Daylight Time, PennsyNut@hotmail.com writes: << And did Life Like tell us they are the same mechanisms in both LLP1 and LLP2? I don't think so! >> I don't think so either and I am equally baffled because I was under the same impression, i.e., the P1K had same mechanism, but cast-on or no grabs, details, etc, compared to P2K. And the Erie-built also looks good with antennas, etc. It just runs crazier than any loco I have owned in the last 15 years. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 02:09:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like and Decoders In a message dated 6/22/02 10:43:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << I am equally baffled because I was under the same impression, i.e., the P1K had same mechanism, but cast-on or no grabs, details, etc., compared to P2K. And the Erie-built also looks good with antennas, etc. >> Bob and all, Nope, the Proto 1000 series is produced over seas like the Proto 2000 but in a completely different factory and by a different company. Actually this was smart thinking on Life Like's part as by doing so they could continue to offer new products wit out becoming so bogged down as other companies have with tooling time and shots, ect. And I still never have figured out why Life Like never offered the F-3 as Western Maryland #51 and 52 as they are textbook copies. I guess to get mine I will have to strip and start over. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like and Decoders Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 09:45:49 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01C21A9A.C1880D80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Morgan: I'm having some trouble with my computer so I'm not sure if this e mail = went through. If it did, I'm sorry for the duplication. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: PennsyNut=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; prr-modeling@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 1:22 AM Subject: [PRR] Life Like and Decoders Hi Listers, Larry & Jim, =20 Sorry about not including enough details. My C-Liner has a Digitrax = DH121. Some of the others have different decoders, not sure about Lenz. = My question is not about decoders. And, we are aware of "backlash" in = multi-unit lash-ups. As a matter of fact, the F-3's in an A-B-A lash-up = runs okay - except for the following. =20 Take any LLP1 engine, put it on the track, and it runs like a scared = jackrabbit. Top speed over 100 mph. Install a decoder, try to cut the = top voltage in half (as in cv 05 set at 128), like 8 volts (remember DCC = has 16 volts on the rail), and it still runs rapid. Also, turn the = throttle up one or two "notches" or "marks on the dial" of a controller, = and it's already running fast. In other words, I can not get it to = start slow and increase speed gradually. It runs too fast at too soon a = throttle setting. Is this clear? =20 And, the owners of the F-3 and Erie Built both experience the same = problem. We all run our trains at quarter throttle to keep the speed = realistic. Remember SPF's, the freight engines were geared for 50 mph. = So you don't want to be running a 20 car freight train with one unit at = 70 or 100 mph. And I will say one thing, the C-Liner with 10 to 20 cars = and an N-6 with lit markers looks fantastic, turn the lights down low to = get the effect of the lights and WOW! =20 And just to make this all the more frustrating, is that the LLP2 = engines don't seem to have this problem. And did Life Like tell us they = are the same mechanisms in both LLP1 and LLP2? I don't think so! =20 Thanks again in advance! =20 Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist! PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! ------=_NextPart_000_005C_01C21A9A.C1880D80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Morgan:
 
I'm having some trouble with my = computer so I'm not=20 sure if this e mail went through.  If it did, I'm sorry for the=20 duplication.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 PennsyNut
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; prr-modeling@yahoogroups.com =
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 = 1:22 AM
Subject: [PRR] Life Like and=20 Decoders

Hi Listers, Larry & = Jim,
 
Sorry about not including = enough=20 details.  My C-Liner has a Digitrax DH121.  Some of the = others have=20 different decoders, not sure about Lenz.  My question is not = about=20 decoders.  And, we are aware of "backlash" in multi-unit = lash-ups. =20 As a matter of fact, the F-3's in an A-B-A lash-up runs okay - except = for the=20 following.
 
Take any LLP1 engine, put it = on the track,=20 and it runs like a scared jackrabbit.  Top speed over 100 = mph. =20 Install a decoder, try to cut the top voltage in half (as in cv 05 set = at=20 128), like 8 volts (remember DCC has 16 volts on the rail), and it = still runs=20 rapid.  Also, turn the throttle up one or two "notches" or "marks = on the=20 dial" of a controller, and it's already running fast.  In other = words, I=20 can not get it to start slow and increase speed gradually.  It = runs too=20 fast at too soon a throttle setting.  Is this clear?
 
And, the owners of the F-3 and = Erie Built=20 both experience the same problem.  We all run our trains at = quarter=20 throttle to keep the speed realistic.  Remember SPF's, the = freight=20 engines were geared for 50 mph.  So you don't want to be running = a 20 car=20 freight train with one unit at 70 or 100 mph.  And I will say one = thing,=20 the C-Liner with 10 to 20 cars and an N-6 with lit markers looks = fantastic,=20 turn the lights down low to get the effect of the lights and = WOW!
 
And just to make this all the = more=20 frustrating, is that the LLP2 engines don't seem to have this = problem. =20 And did Life Like tell us they are the same mechanisms in both LLP1 = and=20 LLP2?  I don't think so!
 
Thanks again in = advance!
 
Morgan=20 Bilbo
Ferroequinologist!
PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true = Pennsy=20 Nut!
------=_NextPart_000_005C_01C21A9A.C1880D80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like and Decoders Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 09:51:48 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C21A9B.9770CB80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Morgan: I'm having some difficulty with my computer and I'm not sure if this = reply went through. If it did, I'm sorry for the duplication. Here = goes: Take any LLP1 engine, put it on the track, and it runs like a scared = jackrabbit. Top speed over 100 mph. Install a decoder, try to cut the = top voltage in half (as in cv 05 set at 128), like 8 volts (remember DCC = has 16 volts on the rail), and it still runs rapid. Also, turn the = throttle up one or two "notches" or "marks on the dial" of a controller, = and it's already running fast. In other words, I can not get it to = start slow and increase speed gradually. It runs too fast at too soon a = throttle setting. Is this clear? Morgan, trust me, the Lenz BEMF will SOLVE this jackrabbit problem. = You'll not be sorry that you tried it. =20 And, the owners of the F-3 and Erie Built both experience the same = problem=20 =20 And just to make this all the more frustrating, is that the LLP2 engines = don't seem to have this problem. And did Life Like tell us they are the = same mechanisms in both LLP1 and LLP2? I don't think so! I have experience problems with the P2Ks also, although not as bad as = the P1Ks. Morgan, for my own satisfaction, I just tested one P1K C-liner with a 25 = car freight. I ran it from Slope to Tunnelhill on my railroad, a = distance of 108 feet with a ruling grade of about 1.6%. The thing ran = flawlessly at a throttle setting of 1. That's right, I said ONE! It = didn't reach track speed until the throttle was up to 50. When it = reached Scotch Run Curve, the steepest area of my East Slope, I stopped = the train and re-started it again at a setting of 1. It rolled at a = speed of seven ties in ten seconds, never stalling. =20 I'm telling you Morgan, you'll love these decoders. I've, so far, = changed out 49 of them and will never buy another type again. =20 =20 A few more points: =20 1) I don't own stock or have any business affiliation with Lenz. = I don't know any of the people that work there. =20 2) I understand that Digitrax also makes a BEMF decoder. I can't speak = for the Digitrax brand, only have tried the Lenz. =20 =20 3) I have never had to fool with the CV's, I use the decoders with the = factory settings. =20 4) I have installed the BEMF in an AT&SF 2-10-4 Texas type brass = locomotive, (ya I know, foreign power, but the Pennsy did lease some). = I can run this loco through a #6 crossover at a speed setting of one and = the engine wont miss a beat. I have counted the cadence of the exhaust, = (Soundtrax DSX also installed), at a rate of one driver revolution per = ten seconds. I only bring this up as this engine, due to it's long = wheelbase, was a terrible runner through curves.=20 =20 5) There are two downsides to the Lenz BEMF decoder. First, the engine = will not slow down going up a hill. I agree that this is not = prototypical, but it's far better than jackrabbit starts and bucking on = the down grades. And two,....... You'll be spending a lot of money on = new decoders once you get hooked. =20 =20 Larry Reynolds =20 =20 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: PennsyNut=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; prr-modeling@yahoogroups.com=20 Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 1:22 AM Subject: [PRR] Life Like and Decoders Hi Listers, Larry & Jim, =20 Sorry about not including enough details. My C-Liner has a Digitrax = DH121. Some of the others have different decoders, not sure about Lenz. = My question is not about decoders. And, we are aware of "backlash" in = multi-unit lash-ups. As a matter of fact, the F-3's in an A-B-A lash-up = runs okay - except for the following. =20 Take any LLP1 engine, put it on the track, and it runs like a scared = jackrabbit. Top speed over 100 mph. Install a decoder, try to cut the = top voltage in half (as in cv 05 set at 128), like 8 volts (remember DCC = has 16 volts on the rail), and it still runs rapid. Also, turn the = throttle up one or two "notches" or "marks on the dial" of a controller, = and it's already running fast. In other words, I can not get it to = start slow and increase speed gradually. It runs too fast at too soon a = throttle setting. Is this clear? =20 And, the owners of the F-3 and Erie Built both experience the same = problem. We all run our trains at quarter throttle to keep the speed = realistic. Remember SPF's, the freight engines were geared for 50 mph. = So you don't want to be running a 20 car freight train with one unit at = 70 or 100 mph. And I will say one thing, the C-Liner with 10 to 20 cars = and an N-6 with lit markers looks fantastic, turn the lights down low to = get the effect of the lights and WOW! =20 And just to make this all the more frustrating, is that the LLP2 = engines don't seem to have this problem. And did Life Like tell us they = are the same mechanisms in both LLP1 and LLP2? I don't think so! =20 Thanks again in advance! =20 Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist! PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! ------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C21A9B.9770CB80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Morgan:
 
I'm having some difficulty with my = computer and I'm=20 not sure if this reply went through.  If it did, I'm sorry for the=20 duplication.  Here goes:
 
Take any LLP1 engine, = put it on the=20 track, and it runs like a scared jackrabbit.  Top speed over 100 = mph. =20 Install a decoder, try to cut the top voltage in half (as in cv 05 set = at 128),=20 like 8 volts (remember DCC has 16 volts on the rail), and it still runs=20 rapid.  Also, turn the throttle up one or two "notches" or "marks = on the=20 dial" of a controller, and it's already running fast.  In other = words, I=20 can not get it to start slow and increase speed gradually.  It runs = too=20 fast at too soon a throttle setting.  Is this clear?
 
Morgan, trust me, the Lenz BEMF will = SOLVE this=20 jackrabbit problem.  You'll not be sorry that you tried = it.
 
And, the owners of the = F-3 and Erie=20 Built both experience the same problem
 
 
And just to make this = all the more=20 frustrating, is that the LLP2 engines don't seem to have this = problem.  And=20 did Life Like tell us they are the same mechanisms in both LLP1 and = LLP2? =20 I don't think so!
 
I have experience problems with the = P2Ks also,=20 although not as bad as the P1Ks.
 
Morgan, for my own satisfaction, I = just tested=20 one P1K C-liner with a 25 car freight.  I ran it from Slope to = Tunnelhill=20 on my railroad, a distance of 108 feet with a ruling grade of about = 1.6%. =20 The thing ran flawlessly at a throttle setting of 1.  That's right, = I said=20 ONE!  It didn't reach track speed until the throttle was up to = 50.  When it reached Scotch Run Curve, the steepest area of my East = Slope,=20 I stopped the train and re-started it again at a  setting of = 1.  It=20 rolled at a speed of seven ties in ten seconds, never=20 stalling.
 
I'm telling you Morgan, you'll love = these=20 decoders.  I've, so far, changed out 49 of them and will never buy = another=20 type again.  
 
A few more points:
 
1) I don't own stock or have any = business=20 affiliation with Lenz. <VBG>  I don't know any of the people = that=20 work there.
 
2) I understand that Digitrax also = makes a BEMF=20 decoder.  I can't speak for the Digitrax brand, only have tried the = Lenz. 
 
3) I have never had to fool with the = CV's, I use=20 the decoders with the factory settings.
 
4) I have installed the BEMF in an = AT&SF 2-10-4=20 Texas type brass locomotive, (ya I know, foreign power, but the Pennsy = did lease=20 some).  I can run this loco through a #6 crossover at a = speed setting=20 of one and the engine wont miss a beat.  I have counted the cadence = of the=20 exhaust, (Soundtrax DSX also installed), at a rate of one driver = revolution per=20 ten seconds.  I only bring this up as this engine, due to it's long = wheelbase, was a terrible runner through curves. 
 
5) There are two downsides to the = Lenz BEMF=20 decoder.  First, the engine will not slow down going up a = hill. =20 I agree that this is not prototypical, but it's far better than = jackrabbit=20 starts and bucking on the down grades.  And two,....... You'll be = spending=20 a lot of money on new decoders once you get hooked. =20 <VVBG>  
 
Larry Reynolds 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 PennsyNut
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com ; prr-modeling@yahoogroups.com =
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 = 1:22 AM
Subject: [PRR] Life Like and=20 Decoders

Hi Listers, Larry & = Jim,
 
Sorry about not including = enough=20 details.  My C-Liner has a Digitrax DH121.  Some of the = others have=20 different decoders, not sure about Lenz.  My question is not = about=20 decoders.  And, we are aware of "backlash" in multi-unit = lash-ups. =20 As a matter of fact, the F-3's in an A-B-A lash-up runs okay - except = for the=20 following.
 
Take any LLP1 engine, put it = on the track,=20 and it runs like a scared jackrabbit.  Top speed over 100 = mph. =20 Install a decoder, try to cut the top voltage in half (as in cv 05 set = at=20 128), like 8 volts (remember DCC has 16 volts on the rail), and it = still runs=20 rapid.  Also, turn the throttle up one or two "notches" or "marks = on the=20 dial" of a controller, and it's already running fast.  In other = words, I=20 can not get it to start slow and increase speed gradually.  It = runs too=20 fast at too soon a throttle setting.  Is this clear?
 
And, the owners of the F-3 and = Erie Built=20 both experience the same problem.  We all run our trains at = quarter=20 throttle to keep the speed realistic.  Remember SPF's, the = freight=20 engines were geared for 50 mph.  So you don't want to be running = a 20 car=20 freight train with one unit at 70 or 100 mph.  And I will say one = thing,=20 the C-Liner with 10 to 20 cars and an N-6 with lit markers looks = fantastic,=20 turn the lights down low to get the effect of the lights and = WOW!
 
And just to make this all the = more=20 frustrating, is that the LLP2 engines don't seem to have this = problem. =20 And did Life Like tell us they are the same mechanisms in both LLP1 = and=20 LLP2?  I don't think so!
 
Thanks again in = advance!
 
Morgan=20 Bilbo
Ferroequinologist!
PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true = Pennsy=20 Nut!
------=_NextPart_000_0075_01C21A9B.9770CB80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 10:27:15 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like and Decoders Morgan: Not to sound like a Lenz commercial, but I have also done what Larry Reynolds has suggested and I am thrilled with the results (for the record, I'm the one that told Larry to try them). I have swapped over to 56 of the Lenz back-EMF decoders now. I started because of the MU problem (I have a 2.1% grade), but the performance at slow speeds you get from the locos is so good, I am changing over exclusively to back-EMF decoders. Where a P1K engine road speed would be somewhere around 10 or 12 on the throttle with a DH121 installed, it is in the mid 50's with a Lenz back-EMF installed. You then get 50 speed steps on the lower end to control all those speeds in between rather than 10... I also have gotten good results (not of the MU problem, but of the jack-rabbit problem) by using a Digitrax decoder (like the DZ121) that support MID and MAX voltages in 128 speed step mode (the DH-121 only supports them in 28 speed step mode). However, the DZ121 is no cheaper than the Lenz decoder and the back-EMF control does help a little with MUing, even on good-running engines (like Kato or Atlas). To borrow disclaimers (slightly modified) from Larry, 1) I also don't own stock or have any business affiliation with Lenz (other than satisfied customer). 2) Digitrax also makes BEMF decoders. In my opinion, they are harder to set up. Lenz decoders work straight out of the packet with no programming needed of the back-EMF CV's (although they are there). 3) I have a 30" minimum radius on my layout and in experimenting with brass engines of 4-8-4 and 4-8-2 types, they would hesitate around some of the curves. The back-EMF makes them run smooth through the tight curves. In my experience, the back-EMF decoders can help engines with problems (like the P1K/P2K on grades) run much better. Second, they can take good running engines (like my Kato F7 set) and make them GREAT running engines. Go buy one or two of these and experiment. You won't be sorry. Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Proto 2000 Engine Question Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 09:47:26 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C21A9A.FB69DCE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PRR Gize: I have noticed that P2K engines, especially the Geeps, run much slower th= an Athearn and Atlas counterparts. For example, I have three PRR GP-30's.= When I put them on my layout to run my Truc Train, I can get about 30-40= mph out them with full throttle. In contrast, my E-8's run fine even whe= n I MU them. It seems that nearly all of the P2K Geeps that I have seen p= erform the same way; they run slow and even slower when you MU them. Although there have been recent threads on P2K / P1K engines and DCC, I h= ave decided not to have DCC on my layout. =20 So my questions are for the P2K Geeps: =20 1. Do these engines have different gearing ratios? 2. Are the diodes and resistors on the engines' circuit board contributin= g the slower performance? =20 3. If answer to Question 2 is yes, which resistors or diodes should be di= sabled to improve the engine's performance? 4. Have any of you removed the entire circuit board and run the engines t= hat way? If I do this, are there any things that I should know about? Thank you in advance for any information that you can relate to me. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C21A9A.FB69DCE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
PRR Gize:
 
I have noticed that P2K engines, especially the = Geeps, run much slower than Athearn and Atlas counterparts. For example, = I have three PRR GP-30's. When I put them on my layout to run my Truc Tra= in, I can get about 30-40 mph out them with full throttle. In contra= st, my E-8's run fine even when I MU them. It seems that nearly all = of the P2K Geeps that I have seen perform the same way; they run slow and= even slower when you MU them.
 
Although ther= e have been recent threads on P2K / P1K engines and DCC, I have deci= ded not to have DCC on my layout. 
 
So my questions are for the P2K Geeps:
 
1. = Do these engines have different gearing ratios?
 
<= DIV>2. Are the diodes and resistors on the engines' circuit boa= rd contributing the slower performance?
 
3. If answer to Question 2 is yes, which resistors or diodes should be = disabled to improve the engine's performance?
 
4. Have any of you removed the entire circuit board and run the en= gines that way? If I do this, are there any things that I should kno= w about?
 
Thank you in advance for = any information that you can relate to me.
 
<= DIV> 
Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana  &= nbsp;
 
   

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C21A9A.FB69DCE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 2000 Engine Question Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 13:11:54 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C21AB7.8BB49440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ted Andrews=20 To: PRR Talk=20 Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 10:47 AM Subject: [PRR] Proto 2000 Engine Question Ted: Here's my two cents:=20 =20 questions are for the P2K Geeps:=20 1. Do these engines have different gearing ratios? Yes 2. Are the diodes and resistors on the engines' circuit board = contributing the slower performance?=20 Yes 3. If answer to Question 2 is yes, which resistors or diodes should be = disabled to improve the engine's performance? Don't know for sure, best to do some trial and error. If you = bypass the diodes you'll blow your headlights. You may be better off = adding diodes to your other engines. 4. Have any of you removed the entire circuit board and run the = engines that way? If I do this, are there any things that I should know = about? Yes, I have removed the entire circuit board so I could install = decoders without worrying about the auto reverse headlight that the = circuit board provides. Since you're not running with DCC, you'd loose = that feature along with the constant lighting effect. You'll also have = to change the headlight to a 12 volt lamp. =20 BTW, why not DCC? It puts a whole new level into your rr fun. Also, = you could fix this current problem by adjusting the speed steps, et = cetera. Larry =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C21AB7.8BB49440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ted = Andrews=20
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 = 10:47=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] Proto 2000 = Engine=20 Question

Ted:  Here's my two = cents: 
 
 
 questions are for the P2K Geeps:
 
1. Do these engines have different gearing ratios?
 
    Yes
 
2. Are the diodes and resistors on the engines' circuit = board=20 contributing the slower performance?
 
    Yes
 
3. If answer to Question 2 is yes, which resistors or diodes = should be=20 disabled to improve the engine's performance?
 
    Don't know for sure, best to do some trial and = error.  If you bypass the diodes you'll blow your = headlights.  You=20 may be better off adding diodes to your other engines.
 
4. Have any of you removed the entire circuit board and run=20 the engines that way? If I do this, are there any things = that I=20 should know about?
 
    Yes, I have removed the entire circuit board = so I=20 could install decoders without worrying about the auto reverse = headlight that=20 the circuit board provides.  Since you're not running with DCC,=20 you'd loose that feature along with the constant lighting = effect. =20 You'll also have to change the headlight to a 12 volt=20 lamp.  
 
BTW, why not DCC?  It puts a whole new level into your = rr=20 fun.  Also, you could fix this current problem by adjusting the = speed=20 steps, et cetera.
 
Larry 
 
 
 
 
   

------=_NextPart_000_003F_01C21AB7.8BB49440-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 14:13:04 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Re: Crawler cranes Bruce and other crawler crane fans, My tardy reply to Bruce's 29 May post. PRR CG1, pg. 108, crawler crane on a class GRA gondola. This crane is close to the Woodland Scenics crawler crane. I agree with Bruce about the Woodland Scenics crawler track section being about the best there is on the market. I also agree with his comments about the Sheepscot boom (Walthers 668-75004) which is a 35’ boom w/ two 20’ inserts. The 35’ boom is okay and the two extra 20’ inserts could work as a flat bed load for one of your semi-trailers. Custom Finishing also makes a boom (Walthers 247-70001) which is for their Model 40 Burro crane. Although both booms are etched brass, I recall the Custom Finishing boom uses a fold-at-the-seam assembly methodology, while Sheepscot is individual pieces making its assembly a bit more tricky. Note the GRA is sans ends as well as its sides between the second and last (outer) stakes. The remaining side stakes (ribs) are cut short above the second horizontal board. PRR CG2, pg. 114, crawler crane again on a class GRA gondola. The cab on this older boxier crane would require scratch building. The Woodland Scenics crawler track section and either booms would be good starters. PRR CG3, pg. 126, crawler crane dismounted is an even older style box cab with tapered ends, also would require scratch building and again with the Woodland Scenics tracks and either booms. Lest one get the idea that all crawler cranes were carried on class GRA gons, I have pictures of them on class FM flat cars also. I am not familiar with the Sheepscot truck mounted crane, other than a small drawing in the Walthers’ catalog so can’t really comment on it. Wiking once made a nice crawler crane cab molded in yellow/orange plastic w/ clear plastic windows. I have a couple and once and awhile I see one at a RR model flea market affair (last one I bought was at Timonium). The tracks and boom were toy like but the replacements mentioned above are available. It, like the other crane housings is not exactly accurate but good enough for a layout grade model. Some other outfit also made a crane I think a Bucyrus-Erie or something like that but couldn’t find it in the latest Walthers’ catalog – maybe I’m just not looking hard enough. While in the process of putting together this response Walt Stafa asked about colors. Most crawler crane pictures I have or have seen, show them as yellow, even when carried on the pre-1953 gray scheme flats and gons. But of course a few photos do not make it gospel. Never say never! BTW I hope to start working soon with Micro-scale decals on producing PRR work equipment decals for a variety of equipment in all schemes CK, SK and PK. I hope to include decals for crawler cranes as well as the ETLC leased vehicles, here again in at least two schemes - old and newer. MS is interested and we have made connection, at this time I'm waiting on the graphic artist to schedule me in. As a sidebar I know the Tichy idler car is not correct for the PRR. But the PRR did use a car of similar configuration as idlers for crawler cranes. Idlers were necessary as the boom protrudes beyond the end of the car. See PRR CG2, pg. 88. This is a class FXL car meaning it’s a flat car converted from a class XL boxcar and was assigned as an idler car for a crawler crane. The house on the end is “living” space as these cars were called “living and idler” cars. The PRR’s 1941 roster of company service work equipment lists only a total of 19 of these “living and idler” cars out of the 5000+ pieces of work equipment, so they were kind of rare. They were numbered 497872, 497873 and 497896-497912. The car in the photo, PRR 497900, is on the way to scrapping in 1954. I don’t remember seeing any in the 1960s but they may have been around that late. You know some things get squirreled away and hang on. Now there’s a nice project for next year’s PRRT&HS annual meeting model contest - a crawler crane on class GRA gon or class FM flat car with a class FXL idler. I’d paint both cars gray and use a yellow crane. So let’s get to work, there’s some scratch building to do here. Hope this is what you were looking for Bruce. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] P2K USRA 0-6-0 Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 14:51:55 -0400

Aren't these things due out in a few weeks. Has anyone heard anything yet about what the Pennsy version will look like. The ad in Mainline Modeler seems to indicate that some will not have the clear vision tender. I don't think the Pennsy USRA 0-6-0 ever got a clear vision tender.
Eric
 
--- Eric Lauterbach
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
 

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RHS1066@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 15:51:09 EDT Subject: [PRR] flextrack installation Hi all; I'm searching for the correct installation proceedure for laying Atlas code 100 flextrack in HO guage. My model railroad club layed about 75 sections of 3 foot track since September of last year. During this time the building temperature stayed fairly constant (75 degrees). Last week, someone reset the thermostat lower than normal. The rails contracted and gaps which were around one eighth of an inch opened up and actually stopped a f-7 loco. ( a real show stopper!) This is a new layout built on 3/4 inch plywood, with cork roadbed. We installed the movable rails back to back on most of the layout. My question is: When laying this flextrack should one alternate movable rail to non-movable to have more ability to adjust gaps to compensate for expansion and contraction. Also how much air-gap is normal for proper installation. We have spent a lot of time on the track trying to do it right, but we are all just learning and getting frustrated. We're planning on installing a locking cover on the stat, but 50 degree air comes out of the ceiling ducts any time the AC is running. Hope there's somebody on the "list" who can give us some guidance. Thanks for any replys,Rich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:01:55 -0400 From: Godfrey Hall Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto 2000 Engine Question --------------9BF2859EB00FD4933E46BBDB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ted Andrews > To: PRR Talk > Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 10:47 AM > Subject: [PRR] Proto 2000 Engine Question > Ted: Here's another two cents: questions are for the P2K > Geeps: (also P2K SW's) Are the diodes and resistors on the > engines' circuit board contributing the slower performance? > Yes ! Have any of you removed the entire circuit board > and run the engines that way? If I do this, are there any > things that I should know about? > > The reason the P2K units run slow is the board controls the > directional lighting & soaks up over 2 volts !You will loose > that feature along with the constant lighting effect. > You'll also have to change the headlight to a 12 volt lamp. > > the wiring is set up to make DCC installation easy. red & > black from the trucks, orange & gray from the motor. connect > red & orange, gray & black, and you should be running! > > I now can run my P2K's with stewart, kato, & atlas with NO > problems > > godfrey hall > > > > > > > --------------9BF2859EB00FD4933E46BBDB Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  
  
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, June 23, 2002 10:47 AM
Subject: [PRR] Proto 2000 Engine Question
 Ted:  Here's another two cents:  questions are for the P2K Geeps: (also P2K SW's)  Are the diodes and resistors on the engines' circuit board contributing the slower performance?
     Yes ! Have any of you removed the entire circuit board and run the engines that way? If I do this, are there any things that I should know about?

The reason the P2K units run slow is the board controls the directional lighting & soaks up over 2 volts !You will loose that feature along with the constant lighting effect.  You'll also have to change the headlight to a 12 volt lamp. 
the wiring is set up to make DCC installation easy. red & black from the trucks, orange & gray from the motor. connect red & orange, gray & black, and you should be running!

I now can run my P2K's with stewart, kato, & atlas with NO problems

godfrey hall
 
 
 
 
      
 

--------------9BF2859EB00FD4933E46BBDB-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] flextrack installation Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:32:43 -0500 Hi! What part of the country are you in? A gap of 1/8" is more than we get in Texas. Our usual procedure is to solder several sections together (especially around curves), and let the "gap" occur on the straight. But our gaps have never been more than 1/32". And this is Texas, with A/C only during the times we are at the club - Thursday and Saturday from 6:30 PM or so. The rest of the time, the building is not A/C. This means over 100º. When the A/C runs, it gets down to a "liveable" 80º or so. In winter, when no heat, it's been as low as 40º. Again, gaps no more than 1/32". Sorry I can't help more! But try soldering around the curves for sure. Probably over bridges and such too. That reduces accidents. By the way, it doesn't make any difference whether code 100, code 83 or code 70, Atlas, Micro-Engineering, Shinohara, brass, nickel-silver or what. There's always some expansion/contraction! Could it be something other than temperature? How about humidity? Barometric pressure? I am sure someone knows! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist! PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, 23 June, 2002 2:51 PM Subject: [PRR] flextrack installation "Hi all; I'm searching for the correct installation proceedure for laying Atlas code 100 flextrack in HO guage. My model railroad club layed about 75 sections of 3 foot track since September of last year. During this time the building temperature stayed fairly constant (75 degrees). Last week, someone reset the thermostat lower than normal. The rails contracted and gaps which were around one eighth of an inch opened up and actually stopped a f-7 loco. (a real show stopper!) This is a new layout built on 3/4 inch plywood, with cork roadbed. We installed the movable rails back to back on most of the layout. My question is: When laying this flextrack should one alternate movable rail to non-movable to have more ability to adjust gaps to compensate for expansion and contraction. Also how much air-gap is normal for proper installation. We have spent a lot of time on the track trying to do it right, but we are all just learning and getting frustrated. We're planning on installing a locking cover on the stat, but 50 degree air comes out of the ceiling ducts any time the AC is running. Hope there's somebody on the "list" who can give us some guidance. Thanks for any replys,Rich" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: [PRR] Questions re, Keystone Summer 2002 Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:37:42 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C21AD4.4BBC0F40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Listers! Latest Keystone is the greatest I've seen. Specifically the article on = boiler explosions - wow! Or really should say - WOW! However, I do = have a question about that type of accident. It doesn't specify if they all had Belpaire fireboxes or not. = (obviously the CB&Q # 6151 didn't). Does anyone have any additional = input as to how PRR's record compares with any/all other railroads? I = mean 74 out of how many thousands upon thousands of locomotives! Not a = bad record at all, as far as I can tell. But, other railroads may have = better or worse. And assuming that the Belpaire was stronger than = others, was the PRR's record the best? Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist! PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C21AD4.4BBC0F40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Listers!
 
Latest Keystone is the greatest = I've=20 seen.  Specifically the article on boiler explosions - wow!  = Or really=20 should say - WOW!  However, I do have a question about that type of = accident.
 
It doesn't specify if they all = had Belpaire=20 fireboxes or not.  (obviously the CB&Q # 6151 = didn't).  Does=20 anyone have any additional input as to how PRR's record compares with = any/all=20 other railroads?   I mean 74 out of how many thousands upon = thousands=20 of locomotives!  Not a bad record at all, as far as I can = tell.  But,=20 other railroads may have better or worse.  And assuming that the = Belpaire=20 was stronger than others, was the PRR's record the best?
 
Morgan=20 Bilbo
Ferroequinologist!
PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy = Nut!
 
------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C21AD4.4BBC0F40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 19:50:36 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Crawler cranes From: jeffrey d thomas This topic got me to thinking about the cranes I saw on work trains on the Marietta branch when I was a kid. All the crawler cranes I saw were yellow. In fact over the years, all the crawler cranes I have seen in railroad service have been yellow. I have always assumed they paint them yellow for safety purposes, as only a couple of crawler crane manufacturers painted their cranes yellow as a standard company color.Only American Hoist and Derrick used a MOW type yellow as their standard color. Little Giant had an off-white or light yellow color, and Unit had a similar off-white, light yellow color. Bucyrus Erie used maroon over off-white or dark green over off-white. Northwest used orange and black. Linkbelt and Manitowoc used red, and Koehring used red, orange, or orange and blue. Jeff Thomas Denton, Tx. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AVRR436@aol.com Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:36:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Today's Railroads --part1_1aa.41b4040.2a47dfa4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The AAR Interchange Rules prohibiting cars in interchange service are 40 years on cars built prior to July 1974. If a car was built prior to 1974 but was rebuilt in accordance with Rule 88 including AAR approval, it can remain in interchange service for 50 years from the original built date. Cars built between 1964 and June 1974 may receive extended service (EXS) allowing them to remain in interchange service for 50 years even if they were not rebuilt. However, EXS must be approved by the AAR based on a thorough inspection and upgrading of specific components. Cars built July 1974 or after are automatically considered 50 year cars. That is because they are built to standards and requirements adopted at that time by the AAR. The one exception is that TTX Company received authorization to operate autorack equipment up to 65 years of age. This was approved by both the AAR and FRA. The reason is that racks are anticipated to be retired at about 30-35 years making a car body with only 15 - 20 years remaining life not a good candidate for having a new rack applied. Those approved for the 65-year life were the newer flush deck type standard level (1966+) and low level cars (1974+). Therefore, the PRR cars built up to the end will become prohibited in interchange in 2018 even if they were rebuilt (1968+50). Except for EXS and the 65-year life extension on autoracks, there has been no major change to the AAR Rules regarding age of cars in interchange service for several years. In a message dated 6/22/02 8:27:26 PM Central Daylight Time, VVA249@aol.com writes: > Subj: Re: [PRR] Today's Railroads > Date: 6/22/02 8:27:26 PM Central Daylight Time > From: VVA249@aol.com > Sender: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > > > > > In a message dated 6/22/02 5:11:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > Ted_Andrews@msn.com writes: > > << Could one big factor be that cars since the 1960's are better built than > their counterparts in the first half of the 20th century? >> > > I have to disagree with this statement - PRR had the reputation of totally > overbuilding it's cars and rebuilding them as necessary. > Pennsy classes GS and H-21 (or their 3 bay rebuilds) would probably be > running today if it were not for the more recently enacted mandatory > retirement rules > > --part1_1aa.41b4040.2a47dfa4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The AAR Interchange Rules prohibiting cars in interchange service are 40 years on cars built prior to July 1974.  If a car was built prior to 1974 but was rebuilt in accordance with Rule 88 including AAR approval, it can remain in interchange service for 50 years from the original built date.  

Cars built between 1964 and June 1974 may receive extended service (EXS) allowing them to remain in interchange service for 50 years even if they were not rebuilt.  However, EXS must be approved by the AAR based on a thorough inspection and upgrading of specific components.

Cars built July 1974 or after are automatically considered 50 year cars.  That is because they are built to standards and requirements adopted at that time by the AAR.   

The one exception is that TTX Company received authorization to operate autorack equipment up to 65 years of age.  This was approved by both the AAR and FRA.  The reason is that racks are anticipated to be retired at about 30-35 years making a car body with only 15 - 20 years remaining life not a good candidate for having a new rack applied.  Those approved for the 65-year life were the newer flush deck type standard level (1966+) and low level cars (1974+).

Therefore, the PRR cars built up to the end will become prohibited in interchange in 2018 even if they were rebuilt (1968+50).  Except for EXS and the 65-year life extension on autoracks, there has been no major change to the AAR Rules regarding age of cars in interchange service for several years.

In a message dated 6/22/02 8:27:26 PM Central Daylight Time, VVA249@aol.com writes:



Subj: Re: [PRR] Today's Railroads
Date: 6/22/02 8:27:26 PM Central Daylight Time
From:    VVA249@aol.com
Sender:    PRR-Talk@dsop.com
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In a message dated 6/22/02 5:11:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Ted_Andrews@msn.com writes:

<< Could one big factor be that cars since the 1960's are better built than
their counterparts in the first half of the 20th century?  >>

I have to disagree with this statement - PRR had the reputation of totally
overbuilding it's cars and rebuilding them as necessary.
Pennsy classes GS and H-21 (or their 3 bay rebuilds) would probably be
running today if it were not for the more recently enacted mandatory
retirement rules







--part1_1aa.41b4040.2a47dfa4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 23:44:04 -0400 From: Nick Kulp Subject: [PRR] P1K dismals, diodes, and other topics --=====================_2688504==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Listers, In the last few digests there was a question about a non-DCC layout, P1K diesels and slow speeds involving some GP30 and some E-8s vs Athearn and Atlas locos. Depending on how old these latter diesels are, they probably do not have the diode board to maintain the "constant lighting" that P1k and P2K locos have. The older locos had lights directly connected to the rail pickups and the intensity would fluctuate with the power applied. Later on some engineers found out that a diode could act as a voltage drop and they could connect a low voltage (1.5 Volts) bulb in series to the motor leads and the light would remain bright. LifeLike and modern manufacturers have used that in their locos ever since and on a non-DCC layout, the loco loses the first 1.5-3 Volts before it moves. That is one of the reasons newer locos that are DCC ready do not perform as well on DC layouts. Today's technology is geared toward DCC, just like the previous generation's technology was geared toward "magic" like transistor throttles and cab-control. I'm not saying it's better, just stating a fact. Older locos also have more power-hungry motors that required heavy power to run two or three engines. Gearing is also different from manufacturer to manufacturer. LifeLike even had different motors for the same loco (Alco PA) when they discovered that they screwed up the gearing and used the EMD switcher motor. The loco ran too slow so LifeLike rewound the motors instead of properly regearing the loco and they ended up destroying decoders due to the back-emf created when the loco stopped. Suggestion: Standardise on newer locos and sell off the old Athearn to finance the new equipment. The locos should then have similar motors and characteristics. Keep in mund that most locos that run on DC will not have the same control characteristics as one run on a DCC layout with a decoder. (apples and oranges) Since non-DCC loco running characteristics can only be changed by gear or motor changes, standardise on these things as well. In the end you will probably spend more than converting to a DCC system but sometimes the challenge is worth it if that is where your interest lies. Try buying several motors and doing RPM tests. When you find several that perform the same, use these in locos that you will mu together. I'm sure there are some old MR and RMC issues that will go into equalizing performance on locos that might help. Good luck in your quest, Nick Kulp >I have noticed that P2K engines, especially the Geeps, run much slower th= >an Athearn and Atlas counterparts. For example, I have three PRR GP-30's.= >When I put them on my layout to run my Truc Train, I can get about 30-40= >mph out them with full throttle. In contrast, my E-8's run fine even whe= >n I MU them. It seems that nearly all of the P2K Geeps that I have seen p= >erform the same way; they run slow and even slower when you MU them. >Although there have been recent threads on P2K / P1K engines and DCC, I h= >ave decided not to have DCC on my layout. =20 >So my questions are for the P2K Geeps: =20 >1. Do these engines have different gearing ratios? >2. Are the diodes and resistors on the engines' circuit board contributin= >g the slower performance? =20 >3. If answer to Question 2 is yes, which resistors or diodes should be di= >sabled to improve the engine's performance? >4. Have any of you removed the entire circuit board and run the engines t= >hat way? If I do this, are there any things that I should know about? --=====================_2688504==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Listers,

In the last few digests there was a question about a non-DCC layout, P1K diesels and slow speeds involving some GP30 and some E-8s vs Athearn and Atlas locos. Depending on how old these latter diesels are, they probably do not have the diode board to maintain the "constant lighting" that P1k and P2K locos have.

The older locos had lights directly connected to the rail pickups and the intensity would fluctuate with the power applied. Later on some engineers found out that a diode could act as a voltage drop and they could connect a low voltage (1.5 Volts) bulb in series to the motor leads and the light would remain bright. LifeLike and modern manufacturers have used that in their locos ever since and on a non-DCC layout, the loco loses the first 1.5-3 Volts before it moves. That is one of the reasons newer locos that are DCC ready do not perform as well on DC layouts.

Today's technology is geared toward DCC, just like the previous generation's technology was geared toward "magic" like transistor throttles and cab-control. I'm not saying it's better, just stating a fact. Older locos also have more power-hungry motors that required heavy power to run two or three engines. Gearing is also different from manufacturer to manufacturer. LifeLike even had different motors for the same loco (Alco PA) when they discovered that they screwed up the gearing and used the EMD switcher motor. The loco ran too slow so LifeLike rewound the motors instead of properly regearing the loco and they ended up destroying decoders due to the back-emf created when the loco stopped.

Suggestion:

Standardise on newer locos and sell off the old Athearn to finance the new equipment. The locos should then have similar motors and characteristics. Keep in mund that most locos that run on DC will not have the same control characteristics as one run on a DCC layout with a decoder. (apples and oranges) Since non-DCC loco running characteristics can only be changed by gear or motor changes, standardise on these things as well. In the end you will probably spend more than converting to a DCC system but sometimes the challenge is worth it if that is where your interest lies. Try buying several motors and doing RPM tests. When you find several that perform the same, use these in locos that you will mu together. I'm sure there are some old MR and RMC issues that will go into equalizing performance on locos that might help.

Good luck in your quest,
Nick Kulp

I have noticed that P2K engines, especially the Geeps, run much slower th=
an Athearn and Atlas counterparts. For example, I have three PRR GP-30's.=
When I put them on my layout to run my Truc Train, I can get about 30-40=
mph out them with full throttle. In contrast, my E-8's run fine even whe=
n I MU them. It seems that nearly all of the P2K Geeps that I have seen p=
erform the same way; they run slow and even slower when you MU them.
Although there have been recent threads on P2K / P1K engines and DCC, I h=
ave decided not to have DCC on my layout. =20
So my questions are for the P2K Geeps: =20
1. Do these engines have different gearing ratios?
2. Are the diodes and resistors on the engines' circuit board contributin=
g the slower performance? =20
3. If answer to Question 2 is yes, which resistors or diodes should be di=
sabled to improve the engine's performance?
4. Have any of you removed the entire circuit board and run the engines t=
hat way? If I do this, are there any things that I should know about?
--=====================_2688504==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 06:44:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Andrews Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona museum Indeed, one of my co-workers, a college graduate in his 30's and a pretty bright fellow who lived his entire life in PA had never heard of the PENNSY. I'm still not sure whether I convinced him or not that I didn't make the whole thing up. Joe --- RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > Face it, the public in general believes that > railroads are a thing of the > past. Just wait until Amtrak is drastically > downsized to experience what the > public perception is. Unless you are a railfan, > rail historian or a model > railroader, you probably have no idea that there > ever was a "Pennsylvania > Railroad", as hard as that is for most of us to > believe. > > Evan Leisey > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] Today's Railroads Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:22:29 +0000 Marvin: You give good examples. I worked for Conrail in the mid-80's in the MW Department. Even then, Conrail was investing hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions in new ties, ballast, rail, and signals on a given railroad line. Within a few years of that investment, the line was downgraded, single-tracked, or abandoned all together. Conrail called this reversal "rationization" projects. I call it short sighted mis-management with no long term planning. ALLOT of money was wasted that could have been kept as profits. I write this as a former Conrail stockholder. Ted Andrews >From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" >To: "'Ted Andrews'" , Gregg Mahlkov >, davep >CC: William Bigler , PRR Talk , >cpc1@westchestergov.com, RDG2124@aol.com, Al Werner , >Dick Perry >Subject: RE: [PRR] Today's Railroads >Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:15:02 -0500 > >As part of the short-sightedness mentioned below, one need only look as >CSXT, who single tracked the old B&O main west of Willard only to invest in >putting the track back in. With respect to Conrail, there were few delays >while the old PRR Middle Division remained triple-tracked....Now... > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELDEN GATWOOD Subject: RE: [PRR] box/covered hopper roof material? Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:46:24 -0700 Folks, It might have been discussed in the past but I can't seem to find this info. Can anyone tell me which classes of boxcars and covered hoppers had galvanized roofs? Can anyone also tell me what boxcars might have been assigned to the "alkali trade"? Thanks! Elden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Charles Ring Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 11:56:00 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Today's Railroads Ted Andrews wrote: > Marvin: > > You give good examples. I worked for Conrail in the mid-80's in the MW > Department. Even then, Conrail was investing hundreds of thousands of > dollars if not millions in new ties, ballast, rail, and signals on a given > railroad line. Within a few years of that investment, the line was > downgraded, single-tracked, or abandoned all together. > > Conrail called this reversal "rationization" projects. I call it short > sighted mis-management with no long term planning. ALLOT of money was wasted > that could have been kept as profits. I write this as a former Conrail > stockholder. In the light of recent revelations of boundless corporate corruption, I have to wonder if a lot of that waste was deliberate - contracts going to top execs' cronies etc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Custom Railway Supply Question Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:25:54 +0000 PRR-Gize: I am looking for a part made by the Custom Railway Supply. It is a part number 212-101, the engine, builder and tender plate data for the A-5s (0-4-0) switcher. The engine number is 730. I am fully aware that this part is no longer made and Custom Railway Supply is now out of business. If any of you should have this part and would be willing to sell, please contact me off list at ted_andrews@msn.com Thanks in advance! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Today's Railroads Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:34:16 -0400 Charles, No, most of it was just lack of long term planning. Corruption was always present, even in PRR days, when Vice President's wives were given directorships of subsidiaries like System Parking and Manor Real Estate. Blatant corruption was caught and punished, witness the GM of the PC's Southwestern Region and his automobile freight claim racket. After I left Conrail in 1978, I used to badger Dick Hasselman about changing main lines to "find the longest distance between any two points on Conrail", whenever I ran onto him at a Rail Shippers' meeting or similar venue. At the time, I controlled a couple of thousand carloads annually to Conrail. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles Ring" To: "Ted Andrews" ; "PRR Talk" Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Today's Railroads > > > Ted Andrews wrote: > > > Marvin: > > > > You give good examples. I worked for Conrail in the mid-80's in the MW > > Department. Even then, Conrail was investing hundreds of thousands of > > dollars if not millions in new ties, ballast, rail, and signals on a given > > railroad line. Within a few years of that investment, the line was > > downgraded, single-tracked, or abandoned all together. > > > > Conrail called this reversal "rationization" projects. I call it short > > sighted mis-management with no long term planning. ALLOT of money was wasted > > that could have been kept as profits. I write this as a former Conrail > > stockholder. > > In the light of recent revelations of boundless corporate corruption, I have to > wonder if a lot of that waste was deliberate - contracts going to top execs' > cronies etc. > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:43:22 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Today's Railroads >>Conrail called this reversal "rationization" projects. I call it short >>sighted mis-management with no long term planning. ALLOT of money was wasted >>that could have been kept as profits. I write this as a former Conrail >>stockholder. > In the light of recent revelations of boundless corporate corruption, I have to > wonder if a lot of that waste was deliberate - contracts going to top execs' > cronies etc. A bit of historic perspective. for near 60 years, RRs could NOT abandon track. (without HUGE procedurla barriers). If retained it HAD to be kept minimally up. I suggest that Government Edicts deserve a word of 'credit' here. -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 12:57:15 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona museum From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Don't be surprised that your college graduate friend never heard of the Pennsy. As a bonus question on an exam this morning I asked who succeeded Pres. Kennedy after he was assassinated. I think three of the students knew, and one of those was an older student seeking a second degree. These are all reasonably intelligent persons. They just don't know any history at all. Pennsy is so far down the list of things to remember it isn't on the radar screen. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: Joseph Andrews >To: RDG2124@aol.com, PRR-Talk >Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona museum >Date: Mon, 24 Jun, 2002, 8:44 > > Indeed, one of my co-workers, a college graduate in > his 30's and a pretty bright fellow who lived his > entire life in PA had never heard of the PENNSY. I'm > still not sure whether I convinced him or not that I > didn't make the whole thing up. > Joe > --- RDG2124@aol.com wrote: >> Face it, the public in general believes that >> railroads are a thing of the >> past. Just wait until Amtrak is drastically >> downsized to experience what the >> public perception is. Unless you are a railfan, >> rail historian or a model >> railroader, you probably have no idea that there >> ever was a "Pennsylvania >> Railroad", as hard as that is for most of us to >> believe. >> >> Evan Leisey >> >> >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona museum Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:51:07 -0400 Don, You realize tbe inevitable question, don't you? Three out of how many? Five? Fifty? Five hundred? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 1:57 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona museum > Don't be surprised that your college graduate friend never heard of the > Pennsy. As a bonus question on an exam this morning I asked who succeeded > Pres. Kennedy after he was assassinated. I think three of the students > knew, and one of those was an older student seeking a second degree. These > are all reasonably intelligent persons. They just don't know any history at > all. Pennsy is so far down the list of things to remember it isn't on the > radar screen. > > > Don Harper > Texas A&M Marine Lab > 5007 Avenue U > Galveston, TX 77551 > 409/740-4540 > > > ---------- > >From: Joseph Andrews > >To: RDG2124@aol.com, PRR-Talk > >Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona museum > >Date: Mon, 24 Jun, 2002, 8:44 > > > > > Indeed, one of my co-workers, a college graduate in > > his 30's and a pretty bright fellow who lived his > > entire life in PA had never heard of the PENNSY. I'm > > still not sure whether I convinced him or not that I > > didn't make the whole thing up. > > Joe > > --- RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > >> Face it, the public in general believes that > >> railroads are a thing of the > >> past. Just wait until Amtrak is drastically > >> downsized to experience what the > >> public perception is. Unless you are a railfan, > >> rail historian or a model > >> railroader, you probably have no idea that there > >> ever was a "Pennsylvania > >> Railroad", as hard as that is for most of us to > >> believe. > >> > >> Evan Leisey > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:52:30 -0400 From: pennsyneil@comcast.net Subject: [PRR] HO Tower Hi Group Over the weekend a fellow Pennsy nut told me of a brick tower in HO . Problem is that I can't remember who makes its. Anyone know? My friend said that there was an add in MR. Thanks Neil ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:15:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Tower From: Jerry Britton On 6/24/02 2:52 PM, pennsyneil@comcast.net (pennsyneil@comcast.net) wrote: > Over the weekend a fellow Pennsy nut told me of a brick tower in HO . > Problem is that I can't remember who makes its. Anyone know? My friend said > that there was an add in MR. > Don't remember the "who", but it appeared in Model Railroader about 2-4 months ago in the News section. Had a photo, which should make it easier to find. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] box/covered hopper roof material? Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:19:30 -0500 My granfather worked for the "Diamond Alkalie Company" They mmade products from brine. The principal solid product was soda ash (sodium carbonate). This material would have been transported in bulk via covered hopper, as a solution in tank cars, and in box cars as anhydrous bagged solids. -----Original Message----- From: ELDEN GATWOOD [mailto:ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com] Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 10:46 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] box/covered hopper roof material? Folks, It might have been discussed in the past but I can't seem to find this info. Can anyone tell me which classes of boxcars and covered hoppers had galvanized roofs? Can anyone also tell me what boxcars might have been assigned to the "alkali trade"? Thanks! Elden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Today's Railroads Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 14:24:38 -0500 I don't know, but I think a lot of what goes on is corporate stupidity, or brown nosing up to the boss. That is if one line needs "rationalization", then they all do, and therefore let's do it. This mentality pervades large corporations. Railroads have been in the cost cutting mode since deregulation, and I don't think they have given much thought to expanding their business. Despite all the rhetoric, the primary purpose of breaking up Conrail is to reduce competition - this generally occurs when a business is declining, not expanding. -----Original Message----- From: Charles Ring [mailto:charlesr@infonline.net] Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 10:56 AM To: Ted Andrews; PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Today's Railroads Ted Andrews wrote: > Marvin: > > You give good examples. I worked for Conrail in the mid-80's in the MW > Department. Even then, Conrail was investing hundreds of thousands of > dollars if not millions in new ties, ballast, rail, and signals on a given > railroad line. Within a few years of that investment, the line was > downgraded, single-tracked, or abandoned all together. > > Conrail called this reversal "rationization" projects. I call it short > sighted mis-management with no long term planning. ALLOT of money was wasted > that could have been kept as profits. I write this as a former Conrail > stockholder. In the light of recent revelations of boundless corporate corruption, I have to wonder if a lot of that waste was deliberate - contracts going to top execs' cronies etc. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Charles Ring Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:40:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Today's Railroads "Cadwell, Marvin L" wrote: > I don't know, but I think a lot of what goes on is corporate stupidity, or > brown nosing up to the boss. That is if one line needs "rationalization", > then they all do, and therefore let's do it. This mentality pervades large > corporations. Railroads have been in the cost cutting mode since > deregulation, and I don't think they have given much thought to expanding > their business. Despite all the rhetoric, the primary purpose of breaking > up Conrail is to reduce competition - this generally occurs when a business > is declining, not expanding. > the matter of spending huge money on assets then abandoning them soon after also reminds me of the US Navy practice of putting major ships through incredibly costly upgrades and repairs, only to decommision the ship next time one glances abck. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] HO Tower Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:52:36 -0400 Try the April or May issue of MR or RMC I believe the company is TRL. I tried e-mailing the company but it got kicked back. Was trying to find out what tower it is based on. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 3:15 PM To: pennsyneil@comcast.net; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Tower On 6/24/02 2:52 PM, pennsyneil@comcast.net (pennsyneil@comcast.net) wrote: > Over the weekend a fellow Pennsy nut told me of a brick tower in HO . > Problem is that I can't remember who makes its. Anyone know? My friend said > that there was an add in MR. > Don't remember the "who", but it appeared in Model Railroader about 2-4 months ago in the News section. Had a photo, which should make it easier to find. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:55:01 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] flextrack installation Her's a suggestion for the expansion problem that worked for our Southern California Modular club that used to set up inside as well as outside. Leave gaps (Cut at anything but a right angle) about every 10 feet of track teh tinknes of a Dremel Cutter blade. Again not at right angles so that the rail will expand and slide by each other. It works. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:01:17 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Source for Middle Division Decals Jan, The best place... DesPaines Hobbies in the greater Chicago Area! Have a Pennsy Day Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:14:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] flextrack installation In a message dated 6/24/02 3:05:05 PM Central Daylight Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: << Leave gaps (Cut at anything but a right angle) about every 10 feet of track teh tinknes of a Dremel Cutter blade. Again not at right angles so that the rail will expand and slide by each other. It works. >> Also stagger the gaps on the two rails. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:25:29 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] AHM J1 I have an AHM Brass J1, and after 30 years of wonderful service the worm in its KTM gearbox is worn beyond service. Does anyone know where I can obtain a replacement KTM worm or gear box. Is KTM still in business? Does anyone import and carry their products? I would like to avoid replacing the entire gearbox with one from NWSL, since that is an entirely different set of gear geometry and would necessitate pulling the driver and replacing the gear. (And then requartering the driver!) As far as I can tell the gear is still serviceable but the worm is beyond hope. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona museum Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:24:20 -0500 One needs only watch that portion of Jay Leno's show when hea asks college kids historical questions to realize how true Don's observations are. -----Original Message----- From: Donald E. Harper, Jr [mailto:harperd@tamug.tamu.edu] Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 12:57 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona museum Don't be surprised that your college graduate friend never heard of the Pennsy. As a bonus question on an exam this morning I asked who succeeded Pres. Kennedy after he was assassinated. I think three of the students knew, and one of those was an older student seeking a second degree. These are all reasonably intelligent persons. They just don't know any history at all. Pennsy is so far down the list of things to remember it isn't on the radar screen. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: Joseph Andrews >To: RDG2124@aol.com, PRR-Talk >Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona museum >Date: Mon, 24 Jun, 2002, 8:44 > > Indeed, one of my co-workers, a college graduate in > his 30's and a pretty bright fellow who lived his > entire life in PA had never heard of the PENNSY. I'm > still not sure whether I convinced him or not that I > didn't make the whole thing up. > Joe > --- RDG2124@aol.com wrote: >> Face it, the public in general believes that >> railroads are a thing of the >> past. Just wait until Amtrak is drastically >> downsized to experience what the >> public perception is. Unless you are a railfan, >> rail historian or a model >> railroader, you probably have no idea that there >> ever was a "Pennsylvania >> Railroad", as hard as that is for most of us to >> believe. >> >> Evan Leisey >> >> >> > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] AHM J1 Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:33:03 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C21B9C.CFC46D00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andy: The last time I purchased a KTM box, (for an AHM J1, by the way), it = came from Precision Scale. I went for the 36:1 ratio and what a = difference that made in performance. They still supply the 27:1 box, = but the worm should be the same P.D. in both cases. I don't blame you, = I also don't care for the business of replacing the gear. Larry Reynolds ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Andrew S. Miller=20 To: PRR Modeling ; PRR-Talk=20 Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 4:25 PM Subject: [PRR-Modeling] AHM J1 I have an AHM Brass J1, and after 30 years of wonderful service the = worm in its KTM gearbox is worn beyond service. Does anyone know where I can obtain a replacement KTM worm or gear box. Is KTM still in business? Does anyone import and carry their products? I would like = to avoid replacing the entire gearbox with one from NWSL, since that is = an entirely different set of gear geometry and would necessitate pulling the driver and replacing the gear. (And then requartering the = driver!) As far as I can tell the gear is still serviceable but the worm is beyond hope. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= Sharing and enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better = reproduce the PRR in miniature !=20 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C21B9C.CFC46D00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Andy:
 
The last time I purchased a KTM box, = (for an AHM=20 J1, by the way), it came from Precision Scale.  I went for the 36:1 = ratio=20 and what a difference that made in performance.  They still supply = the 27:1=20 box, but the worm should be the same P.D. in both cases.  I don't = blame=20 you, I also don't care for the business of replacing the gear. =20 <VBG>
 
Larry Reynolds
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Andrew S.=20 Miller
To: PRR Modeling ; PRR-Talk
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 = 4:25 PM
Subject: [PRR-Modeling] AHM = J1

I have an AHM Brass J1, and after 30 years of = wonderful=20 service the worm
in its KTM gearbox is worn beyond = service.  =20 Does anyone know where I
can obtain a replacement KTM worm or gear = box. Is=20 KTM still in
business?  Does anyone import and carry their=20 products?  I would like to
avoid replacing the entire gearbox = with one=20 from NWSL, since that is an
entirely different set of gear geometry = and=20 would necessitate pulling
the driver and replacing the gear.  = (And=20 then requartering the driver!)
As far as I can tell the gear is = still=20 serviceable but the worm is
beyond = hope.
--
Regards,

Andy=20 = Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D




Sharing = and enjoying our memories and materials and methods to better = reproduce the=20 PRR in miniature !

To unsubscribe from this group, send an = email=20 = to:
PRR-Modeling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



Y= our=20 use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of = Service.=20
------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C21B9C.CFC46D00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 16:34:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] AHM J1 Andy,         I actually heard that KTM is coming back into business. Not sure where I heard this, maybe the PRR Convention? I have yet however, seen anything in print about this news. Maybe this is what the hobby needs. KTM was known for very durable mechs, they were made for running!. Much better than most Korean stuff mow days. Maybe thats why your's is worn, it may have a million miles (scale miles of course) on it?......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona museum Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 20:49:17 +0000 My experience way back when in school was that they don't teach the last fifty years until it is in perspective. As a kid in the 50's Eisenhower was President to us. It wasn't until he died that we ever heard anything about the Second World War and his command and role. Both my wife and I attended some of the best public schools in the country at that time. our parents were shocked that we didn't know about him being a General but nobody ever told us being born right after the war. Norm Bell > One needs only watch that portion of Jay Leno's show when hea asks college > kids historical questions to realize how true Don's observations are. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Donald E. Harper, Jr [mailto:harperd@tamug.tamu.edu] > Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 12:57 PM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona museum > > > Don't be surprised that your college graduate friend never heard of the > Pennsy. As a bonus question on an exam this morning I asked who succeeded > Pres. Kennedy after he was assassinated. I think three of the students > knew, and one of those was an older student seeking a second degree. These > are all reasonably intelligent persons. They just don't know any history at > all. Pennsy is so far down the list of things to remember it isn't on the > radar screen. > > > Don Harper > Texas A&M Marine Lab > 5007 Avenue U > Galveston, TX 77551 > 409/740-4540 > > > ---------- > >From: Joseph Andrews > >To: RDG2124@aol.com, PRR-Talk > >Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona museum > >Date: Mon, 24 Jun, 2002, 8:44 > > > > > Indeed, one of my co-workers, a college graduate in > > his 30's and a pretty bright fellow who lived his > > entire life in PA had never heard of the PENNSY. I'm > > still not sure whether I convinced him or not that I > > didn't make the whole thing up. > > Joe > > --- RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > >> Face it, the public in general believes that > >> railroads are a thing of the > >> past. Just wait until Amtrak is drastically > >> downsized to experience what the > >> public perception is. Unless you are a railfan, > >> rail historian or a model > >> railroader, you probably have no idea that there > >> ever was a "Pennsylvania > >> Railroad", as hard as that is for most of us to > >> believe. > >> > >> Evan Leisey > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona museum Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:58:43 -0500 I too went to school in the 50s. While I can't vouch for the quality of my schools, I learned that not only was he a General in WWII, but that he was president of Columbia University prior to becoming President of the United States, and that he authored a book, Crusade In Europe, describing his experience as Commander-in-Chief of the European War effort. We also learned the similar material about the Democratic candidate, Adlai Stevenson, who Ike ran against in his presidential campaign. -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 3:49 PM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com; Cadwell, Marvin L Subject: RE: [PRR] Altoona museum My experience way back when in school was that they don't teach the last fifty years until it is in perspective. As a kid in the 50's Eisenhower was President to us. It wasn't until he died that we ever heard anything about the Second World War and his command and role. Both my wife and I attended some of the best public schools in the country at that time. our parents were shocked that we didn't know about him being a General but nobody ever told us being born right after the war. Norm Bell > One needs only watch that portion of Jay Leno's show when hea asks college > kids historical questions to realize how true Don's observations are. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Donald E. Harper, Jr [mailto:harperd@tamug.tamu.edu] > Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 12:57 PM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona museum > > > Don't be surprised that your college graduate friend never heard of the > Pennsy. As a bonus question on an exam this morning I asked who succeeded > Pres. Kennedy after he was assassinated. I think three of the students > knew, and one of those was an older student seeking a second degree. These > are all reasonably intelligent persons. They just don't know any history at > all. Pennsy is so far down the list of things to remember it isn't on the > radar screen. > > > Don Harper > Texas A&M Marine Lab > 5007 Avenue U > Galveston, TX 77551 > 409/740-4540 > > > ---------- > >From: Joseph Andrews > >To: RDG2124@aol.com, PRR-Talk > >Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona museum > >Date: Mon, 24 Jun, 2002, 8:44 > > > > > Indeed, one of my co-workers, a college graduate in > > his 30's and a pretty bright fellow who lived his > > entire life in PA had never heard of the PENNSY. I'm > > still not sure whether I convinced him or not that I > > didn't make the whole thing up. > > Joe > > --- RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > >> Face it, the public in general believes that > >> railroads are a thing of the > >> past. Just wait until Amtrak is drastically > >> downsized to experience what the > >> public perception is. Unless you are a railfan, > >> rail historian or a model > >> railroader, you probably have no idea that there > >> ever was a "Pennsylvania > >> Railroad", as hard as that is for most of us to > >> believe. > >> > >> Evan Leisey > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 20:12:45 -0400 (EDT) From: chaslett@cse.l-3com.com Subject: Re: [PRR] 1361 > > List, > The mention of 1361 made me think for a second. I couldn't remember > if this happened or not. Since the restoration of the K back in > 1985-1986, has the 1361 ever snuck a trip up Horseshoe during any of its > excursions/test runs of that time period? I can't remember ever seeing > any pics.....Gary No. Trials & trips were out to Duncansville (WYE) and back, and of course down to Tyrone and up the Bald Eagle Branch to the Bellfonte area, and even down to York for a week, but not the Curve.....yet.... Carl Haslett, still holding out hope ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 21:48:35 -0400 From: Dale Dembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] 1361 Maybe a deal could be worked out between Altoona and Cresson on the use/route of 1361 once it is returned to service? Dale From "texdom52167" on the OhioRailroadsList: I know this is out of the Area but thought I would post it anyways, This is a project I have been involved in for some time. >From the Hood County News: Cresson train supporters making tracks (Friday, June 21, 2002) The sleepy town of Cresson could see a building boom if it becomes the stop for a steam locomotive excursion train, train supporters predict. The city could see an influx of motels, restaurants and other attractions if it becomes a stop on a Fort Worth Stockyards to Granbury run or a Cleburne to Granbury run, says planner Shane Hopkins. Interested residents are urged to chug-a-lug on down to the Historic Cresson School on Thursday, July 18. That's because there will be a 7 p.m. town hall meeting on the proposed excursion train, says Hopkins, a Cleburne computer specialist and railroad buff. The town hall meeting will be in conjunction with the Cresson City Council meeting. The steam locomotive train would be similar to what's being operated by the Fort Worth-based Tarantula train. The Tarantula at one point included Granbury in its destinations, but Grapevine is now its primary destination. Cresson is an ideal stop for a steam locomotive because it has a "Y," or triangle, configuration that allows trains to turn around, Hopkins pointed out. That would be crucial in making Cresson a stop on the train's route, said Hopkins. Supporters have discussed too obtaining grants to build a new Cresson railroad depot on the site of the former one if the excursion train comes. Hopkins said the Cleburne to Cresson to Granbury run would begin with more modern diesel engines and fairly modern passenger cars. The vintage steam locomotive and vintage passenger cars would come later, he said. Planners have options on two locomotives and some passenger cars in Canada, Hopkins reported. One of the locomotives would sport the name "Cresson Flyer," he said. Those locomotives and cars could begin a limited run as early as November or December, while the steam locomotive could start its run in 18 months to two years, estimated Hopkins. The train would initially operate on weekends only, with scheduling such that one group of passengers could go from Cleburne to Granbury, deboard, and the train could reboard with passengers wanting to go to Cresson and back, Hopkins said. For the steam locomotive, planners have in mind the historic engine Santa Fe No. 3417. The locomotive is presently in Cleburne and played a big part in Cleburne's railroad past. The locomotive was built in 1919 at the Baldwin Locomotive Works in Pennsylvania and is in "fantastic shape," said Hopkins. The engine's boiler needs to be patched in a couple of places and other work has to be done, he stated. Hopkins estimated the restoration might cost from $750,000 to $1 million. At one point, the 3417 was considered for the Tarantula line. The 3417 spent much of its working life in Cleburne, but at one point was used to haul troop trains across the San Gabriel Mountains in California during World War II, Hopkins said. The locomotive was completely rebuilt in the 1940s. The 3417 was retired in 1954 and donated to the city of Cleburne the next year, said Hopkins. There are seven engineers still alive in Cresson who ran the 3417, Hopkins stated. Workers have already spent $10,000 removing asbestos from the 3417's engine. Cleburne voters approved a half-cent sales tax that would help fund the construction of a "working" railroad museum in that city, Hopkins said. A restored 3417 would be the centerpiece of the museum, he stated. Working with Hopkins is Michael Percifield, who's a licensed steam locomotive engineer. At one point, Percifield was an engineer for the Tarantula train. Planners do have some financial backing lined up for the excursion train, but Hopkins didn't reveal the backer's identity. Jack Farr, who owns Cresson's MotorSport Ranch, supports the plan, but points out that at present, there's nothing for train passengers to do if they deboarded during a Cresson stopover. Hopkins agrees, but said people should look at the possibilities. "What I like about Cresson is there's nothing there," he said. "Cresson has an open ticket to design itself around this. There's a tremendous amount of flexibility." Along with the train, the MotorSport Ranch could attract motels and other facilities, stated Hopkins. The excursion train could haul up to 1,600 passengers a weekend, Hopkins said. "That's a lot of people coming through Cresson," he stated. The train's run would first begin with a Fort Worth Stockyards to Cresson to Granbury run, Hopkins said. Next would follow the Cleburne to Cresson to Granbury run, he stated. To bring the steam locomotive excursion train to Granbury would require Granbury to commit to building a turnaround for the train, Hopkins pointed out. chaslett@cse.l-3com.com wrote: > > > > List, > > > The mention of 1361 made me think for a second. I couldn't remember > > if this happened or not. Since the restoration of the K back in > > 1985-1986, has the 1361 ever snuck a trip up Horseshoe during any of its > > excursions/test runs of that time period? I can't remember ever seeing > > any pics.....Gary > > No. > > Trials & trips were out to Duncansville (WYE) and back, > and of course down to Tyrone and up the Bald Eagle Branch > to the Bellfonte area, and even down to York for a week, > but not the Curve.....yet.... > > Carl Haslett, still holding out hope > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 22:44:18 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Models --part1_191.8d70308.2a493302_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List, Ran across this vendor, Imperial Hobby Producs, on the CNJ list. They offer several models for the northeastern RR's. Such as the MP54 and the Budd Silverliner commuter coaches. Site: http://ihphobby.tripod.com Has anyone had any experience with their models? Evan Leisey --part1_191.8d70308.2a493302_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List,

 Ran across this vendor,  Imperial Hobby Producs, on the CNJ list.  They offer several models for the northeastern RR's.  Such as the MP54 and the Budd Silverliner commuter coaches.   Site:   http://ihphobby.tripod.com

 Has anyone had any experience with their models?

Evan Leisey

--part1_191.8d70308.2a493302_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 07:32:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/22/02 --part1_88.1a138bfb.2a49aeb3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/22/02 1:05:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Bill, what you say about the volume of freight is trus in absolute = > terms, however, as a percentage of the total volume shipped, the = > railroad share has continued to decline. The Penn Central, with its = > emphasis on the "major shippers", ran off a lot of the PRR's smaller = > customers. Conrail, by taking over only certain lines, ran off a great = > deal more. When railroad marketing and prticing were deregulated in = > 1980, the existing managers were ill-equipped to work a price driven = > environment, and the new hires had absolutely no understanding of the = > transportation marketplace (Believe me, it ain't like selling soap to = > consumers!) > Compare three theoretical ways to measure freight market share: 1. Share of ton miles. 30%? Easy to document, but almost irrelevant in a postindustiral country. This measure makes the railroads look healthy, but most of the rails' ton miles are commodities so cheap they almost don't move -- and may not tomorrow. 2. Share of revenue. 10%? Truckers and airlines get paid well for what they move. Railroads don't, since delivery is unreliable (death to most marketeers of most goods). 3. Share of net income. 3-5%? Moving large but marginal chunks of traffic, railroads profit much less from their operations than do trucks or airlines. Profit margins are skimpy. Which leads us to two of my favorite laws of business: Tipton's First Law of Business: If it doesn't make a profit, it won't exist long. Tipton's Second Law of Business: When the profit departs a business, the fun departs with it. Rick Tipton Senior Consultant, PennTexas Associates Consultants in Logistics and Distribution --part1_88.1a138bfb.2a49aeb3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/22/02 1:05:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Bill, what you say about the volume of freight is trus in absolute =
terms, however, as a percentage of the total volume shipped, the =
railroad share has continued to decline. The Penn Central, with its =
emphasis on the "major shippers", ran off a lot of the PRR's smaller =
customers. Conrail, by taking over only certain lines, ran off a great =
deal more. When railroad marketing and prticing were deregulated in =
1980, the existing managers were ill-equipped to work a price driven =
environment, and the new hires had absolutely no understanding of the =
transportation marketplace (Believe me, it ain't like selling soap to =
consumers!)


Compare three theoretical ways to measure freight market share:

1. Share of ton miles.  30%? Easy to document, but almost irrelevant in a postindustiral country.  This measure makes the railroads look healthy, but most of the rails' ton miles are commodities so cheap they almost don't move -- and may not tomorrow.

2. Share of revenue.  10%?  Truckers and airlines get paid well for what they move.  Railroads don't, since delivery is unreliable (death to most marketeers of most goods).

3. Share of net income.  3-5%?  Moving large but marginal chunks of traffic, railroads profit much less from their operations than do trucks or airlines.  Profit margins are skimpy.

Which leads us to two of my favorite laws of business:

Tipton's First Law of Business:  If it doesn't make a profit, it won't exist long.

Tipton's Second Law of Business:  When the profit departs a business, the fun departs with it.

Rick Tipton
Senior Consultant, PennTexas Associates
Consultants in Logistics and Distribution
 --part1_88.1a138bfb.2a49aeb3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:17:59 -0400 From: davep Subject: [PRR] Modern (freight) RRs > 1. Share of ton miles. 30%? Higher. And rising. Taking share from trucks. > Easy to document, but almost irrelevant in a > postindustiral country. Someone has to move the chems to make the post industrial, the coal to power the plants, the plastics to make the computer cases, the lumber, the ag products. > This measure makes the railroads look healthy, Rising profits, rising taxes paid, rising jobs make 'em look healthy to me... > but most of the rails' ton miles are commodities so cheap they > almost don't move -- and may not tomorrow. I doubt coal will stop, or chems. > 2. Share of revenue. 10%? Truckers and airlines get paid > well for what they move. Railroads don't, since delivery > is unreliable (death to most marketeers of most goods). An irrelevant (more or less) to others... I suggest that not all traffic needs to move to the same norms. I suggest that RRs may do well if the serve those shippers they serve BEST, and leave other traffic to others... > 3. Share of net income. 3-5%? Moving large but marginal chunks of > traffic, railroads profit much less from their operations than do trucks > or airlines. Hmmmmm. Which airlines? Last i heard most were in financial trouble, parking planes, being offered government loans (which, granted, most have not taken up....) > Profit margins are skimpy. > Which leads us to two of my favorite laws of business: > Tipton's First Law of Business: If it doesn't make a profit, it won't > exist long. RRs make profits. They make more profits now than in 1960. Off hand, those profits are rising. (plus or minus 'short term economic fluctuations'.) > Tipton's Second Law of Business: When the profit departs a business, > the fun departs with it. 'fun', i suggest is a multi valued function. RRs exist to move stuff, rather than to have fun (am i being too literal? 8)>>). Some one has a classic rule of economics, roughly: Do one thing. Do it well. Obviously, this can be carried too far (eg: minimal business in buggy whips, not zero, but minimal...). best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 05:47:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Andrews Subject: RE: [PRR] Today's Railroads Conrail was never intended to be a permanent entity. Conrail, like Amtrak, was a meant to be a temporary emergency stopgap to prevent an impending disaster. I have no doubt that the big private railroads were very dismayed to see it succeed. Joe --- "Cadwell, Marvin L" wrote: > > > I don't know, but I think a lot of what goes on is > corporate stupidity, or > brown nosing up to the boss. That is if one line > needs "rationalization", > then they all do, and therefore let's do it. This > mentality pervades large > corporations. Railroads have been in the cost > cutting mode since > deregulation, and I don't think they have given much > thought to expanding > their business. Despite all the rhetoric, the > primary purpose of breaking > up Conrail is to reduce competition - this generally > occurs when a business > is declining, not expanding. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles Ring [mailto:charlesr@infonline.net] > Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 10:56 AM > To: Ted Andrews; PRR Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] Today's Railroads > > > > > Ted Andrews wrote: > > > Marvin: > > > > You give good examples. I worked for Conrail in > the mid-80's in the MW > > Department. Even then, Conrail was investing > hundreds of thousands of > > dollars if not millions in new ties, ballast, > rail, and signals on a given > > railroad line. Within a few years of that > investment, the line was > > downgraded, single-tracked, or abandoned all > together. > > > > Conrail called this reversal "rationization" > projects. I call it short > > sighted mis-management with no long term planning. > ALLOT of money was > wasted > > that could have been kept as profits. I write this > as a former Conrail > > stockholder. > > In the light of recent revelations of boundless > corporate corruption, I have > to > wonder if a lot of that waste was deliberate - > contracts going to top execs' > cronies etc. > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:54:54 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Today's Railroads > Conrail was never intended to be a permanent entity. > Conrail, like Amtrak, was a meant to be a temporary > emergency stopgap to prevent an impending disaster. I don't recall that, but i could be wrong. > I have no doubt that the big private railroads were very > dismayed to see it succeed. Conrail WAS a private RR. (hint: it paid BACK the loans...) Arguably, the private rods were overjoyed, since they bought it... best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 06:07:33 -0700 From: Subject: [PRR] Rail economics, then and now Guys, Although I find the discussion concerning the rise/fall of profits, the rise/fall of material shipped and so forth fascinating, one basic fact is being totally ignored. THE PENNSY DEPENDED ON STEEL PRODUCTION! I make this statement because I have seen this first hand, having lived (and worked) in the steel mills in the Pittsburgh area. I am of the opinion that the Pennsy relied upon the shipping of raw material (coal, limestone and iron ore) to make steel, and then furnished the means to ship the product to market. I would hazzard the guess that the volume of manufacturing has shrunk to a dim reminder of manufacturers along the mainline. When was the last time anyone has seen a "black snake" rolling along the iron in Pennsy country? (with the exception of those unit trains headed out.) I personally find the discussion of theories enchanting, but the reality is that the need to ship isn't what it used to be in the 50's and 60's. I apologize if I have trodden on anyone's toes, that wasn't my intention. enough said, Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Today's Railroads Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:13:34 -0500 It was never intended to be a government supported entity. In this regard, it achieved self-sufficiently. It was a PRIVATE business decision to break it up. It was supported of course by a compliant Surface Transportation Board. -----Original Message----- From: Joseph Andrews [mailto:joeandrews1@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 25, 2002 7:48 AM To: Cadwell, Marvin L; PRR-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] Today's Railroads Conrail was never intended to be a permanent entity. Conrail, like Amtrak, was a meant to be a temporary emergency stopgap to prevent an impending disaster. I have no doubt that the big private railroads were very dismayed to see it succeed. Joe --- "Cadwell, Marvin L" wrote: > > > I don't know, but I think a lot of what goes on is > corporate stupidity, or > brown nosing up to the boss. That is if one line > needs "rationalization", > then they all do, and therefore let's do it. This > mentality pervades large > corporations. Railroads have been in the cost > cutting mode since > deregulation, and I don't think they have given much > thought to expanding > their business. Despite all the rhetoric, the > primary purpose of breaking > up Conrail is to reduce competition - this generally > occurs when a business > is declining, not expanding. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles Ring [mailto:charlesr@infonline.net] > Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 10:56 AM > To: Ted Andrews; PRR Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] Today's Railroads > > > > > Ted Andrews wrote: > > > Marvin: > > > > You give good examples. I worked for Conrail in > the mid-80's in the MW > > Department. Even then, Conrail was investing > hundreds of thousands of > > dollars if not millions in new ties, ballast, > rail, and signals on a given > > railroad line. Within a few years of that > investment, the line was > > downgraded, single-tracked, or abandoned all > together. > > > > Conrail called this reversal "rationization" > projects. I call it short > > sighted mis-management with no long term planning. > ALLOT of money was > wasted > > that could have been kept as profits. I write this > as a former Conrail > > stockholder. > > In the light of recent revelations of boundless > corporate corruption, I have > to > wonder if a lot of that waste was deliberate - > contracts going to top execs' > cronies etc. > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 12:12:42 -0400 From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Today's Railroads In a message dated Tue, 25 Jun 2002 7:54:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, davep@quik.com writes: > Conrail WAS a private RR. > (hint: it paid BACK the loans...) > Arguably, the private rods were overjoyed, since > they bought it... Conrail was a government subsidized entity until the US Dept of Transportation issued an IPO. The funds generated from the IPO (i.e., investors) repaid the bulk of the Federal money used to salvage the rail industry in the Northeast not Conrail. This allowed Conrail to become privately held with relatively little debt to no debt. Only after the infusion of public money and time to reorganize itself did Conrail become profitable. Only after the management proved they could operate the road profitably did the Federal government sell the road thourgh the IPO. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 11:28:16 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Re: Crawler cranes Al sez: >PRR CG1, pg. 108, crawler crane on a class GRA gondola. >Note the GRA is sans ends as well as its sides between the >second and last (outer) stakes. The remaining side stakes (ribs) are cut >short above the second horizontal board. >Lest one get the idea that all crawler cranes were carried on class GRA >gons, I have pictures of them on class FM flat cars also. Do the FM flats have side boards? The GRA bash actually looks pretty "easy" in HO with a Westerfield 4553 kit. The sides might be a tad delicate without ends, but careful attention to the undeframe will help that. In addition to the cut down sides, there appears to be an added "top sill" to the sides and metal plated were bolted to the sill where the sides were removed to provide tie downs for the boom. >While in the process of putting together this response Walt Stafa asked >about colors. Most crawler crane pictures I have or have seen, show them as >yellow, even when carried on the pre-1953 gray scheme flats and gons. But >of course a few photos do not make it gospel. Never say never! Interesting! I would have guessed gray or black. I noticed that there can be quite a lot of lettering on a crawler including the number of its assigned carrier car. >BTW I hope to start working soon with Micro-scale decals on producing PRR >work equipment decals for a variety of equipment in all schemes CK, SK and >PK. Neat! For those not familiar with the available PRR MOW decals, Westerfield makes a set for the XL camp cars and Sunshine has a very nice set with their MOW FM (see more below) >PRR CG2, pg. 88. This is a class FXL car meaning it's a flat car converted >from a class XL boxcar and was assigned as an idler car for a crawler crane. >The house on the end is "living" space as these cars were called "living and >idler" cars. The PRR's 1941 roster of company service work equipment lists >only a total of 19 of these "living and idler" cars out of the 5000+ pieces >of work equipment, so they were kind of rare. They were numbered 497872, >497873 and 497896-497912. The car in the photo, PRR 497900, is on the way to >scrapping in 1954. Were they all class FXL? Sunshine sells a variant of the FM with the "house" on the end. In comparing the Sunshine kit and the photo of the FXL, it looks like the "house" is very close. The Sunshine kit includes the EXACT assignment lettering of the FXL in the CG2 photo, right down to the same number for the crawler crane! Makes me wonder if Martin made a small booboo and thought the photo was an FM? >Now there's a nice project for next year's PRRT&HS annual meeting >model contest - a crawler crane on class GRA gon or class FM flat car with a >class FXL idler. I'd paint both cars gray and use a yellow crane. So let's >get to work, there's some scratch building to do here. You are an evil man Al! I've been looking at the FXL picture for a LONG time, and I think its a relatively straight forward "bash". I'd start with a Westerfield XL, add a wood deck, a few stake pockets and the house (perhaps from the Sunshine FM?). Do you or any of our listers have any additional photos of "living and idler" cars that I might be able to work from? Of course, there are a few models in the queue before this! I'm in the middle of building the rest of my wreck train (westerfield XLs) so I have three XL kits in progress, and then there is the wire train... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 19:07:17 EDT Subject: [PRR] Life Like Proto 1000 and Lenz BEMF decoders I note that the new BEMF decoder from Lenz is listed as .5Amp capacity. Anyone know if this will handle the P1K Erie-built? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 19:22:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] ex-PRR Conway Yard Westbound Hump closed. Speaking of today's railroads, I just found out that NS has shut down the westbound hump at Conway. Don't know if you guys know about this or not. Sign of the Times? Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 19:31:34 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like Proto 1000 and Lenz BEMF decoders The Lenz decoders list a "continuous" capacity as compared to Digitrax's policy of listing a "max" capacity. Bottom line is that the Lenz decoders will work fine in the P1K Erie-Builts (and all other recent P1K/P2K locos with the exception of the P2K PA's that have the re-wound motors with an extremely high amperage pull). I have been running my P1K Erie Builts for months with the Lenz back-EMF's installed with no problems. Jeff Warner Bobspf@aol.com wrote: >I note that the new BEMF decoder from Lenz is listed as .5Amp capacity. >Anyone know if this will handle the P1K Erie-built? > >Bob Zoeller > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 22:30:59 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: [PRR] C-Liner/Lenz BEMF decoders --------------Boundary-00=_NBKAG6G0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gang, While talking to a local modeler and repairman, his statement to m= e was to the effect: fix mechanical problems mechanicaly and electronic p= roblems electronically.. His experience in the past few years with both P= lk and P2k units is that the problems more often than not involve the exc= essive gear "play" in the gear towers, primarily the "play" in the worm g= ear. He has replaced the axle and gear with one from Athearn which helps= reduce the "play" between the two gears, and has not had to mess with th= e "cv,s" or use the BEMF decoders. Hope this helps Jim=20 --------------Boundary-00=_NBKAG6G0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0A
Gang,  While talking to a local modeler and repairman, hi= s=20 statement to me was to the effect: fix mechanical problems mechanic= aly and=20 electronic problems electronically.. His experience in the past few= years=20 with both Plk and P2k units is that the problems more often th= an not=20 involve the excessive gear "play" in the gear towers, primarily the= "play"=20 in the worm gear.  He has replaced the axle and gear= with=20 one from Athearn which helps reduce the "play" between the two= =20 gears, and has not had to mess with the "cv,s" or use the BEMF= =20 decoders.  Hope this helps    =20 Jim 
=09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09
--------------Boundary-00=_NBKAG6G0000000000000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 22:50:46 EDT Subject: [PRR] South Jersey Question Folks, Last week I was visiting my cousin in Glassboro, NJ and came across something that got my curiosity up. Coming into town on Hwy 322 from the turnpike, I crossed a single track railroad that appeared to be in fairly decent shape. Later in the evening I was riding with my cousin and caught a glimpse of another line to the west of this line, though not while using hwy 322. This second line was obviously abandoned; it had two tracks still inbedded in the road, though I don't know if this had been double tracked or a single with a passing siding. I only caught a passing glimpse to the south of the crossing, but it was heavily grown over with small trees and large bushes extending along the right of way. My question is, what are these lines? PRSL certainly, but is the existing single track line the old route to Millville? I know there was once a junction in this town, but this is way out of my territory and don't know anything about current rail operations in South Jersey. Anybody aware? Thanks, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 00:38:45 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liner/Lenz BEMF decoders --------------080903070309050403000301 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim: This is where Larry Reynolds and myself started in trying to fix the P1K/P2K "bucking" problem on grades. What we found is that the problem was specific to DCC. With the dummy plug in, the problem did not exist. I did try to get the play out of the worm gear using thrust washers with minimal success. I did not go so far as to replace all the parts you mentioned and that certainly may be an answer... To me, the additional of a BEMF decoder compared to a "normal" decoder is less than the cost and time needed to rebuild the gear towers with Athearn parts. As for "messing with CV's", the Lenz BEMF decoders work straight out of the package. They are no harder to program than any other decoder. (The Digitrax BEMF do require quite a bit of "messing"). For the record, NONE of this should be necessary. Why can't LL make a loco that runs without needing all these tweaks???? For the price, I don't think it's too much to expect (and yes, I have told LL that over the phone for all the good it did me)... Jeff Warner sjlash wrote: > Gang, While talking to a local modeler and repairman, his statement > to me was to the effect: fix mechanical problems mechanicaly and > electronic problems electronically.. His experience in the past few > years with both Plk and P2k units is that the problems more often than > not involve the excessive gear "play" in the gear towers, primarily > the "play" in the worm gear. He has replaced the axle and gear with > one from Athearn which helps reduce the "play" between the two > gears, and has not had to mess with the "cv,s" or use the BEMF > decoders. Hope this helps Jim > > > > --------------080903070309050403000301 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jim:

This is where Larry Reynolds and myself started in trying to fix the P1K/P2K "bucking" problem on grades.  What we found is that the problem was specific to DCC.   With the dummy plug in, the problem did not exist.  I did try to get the play out of the worm gear using thrust washers with minimal success.  I did not go so far as to replace all the parts you mentioned and that certainly may be an answer...

To me, the additional of a BEMF decoder compared to a "normal" decoder is less than the cost and time needed to rebuild the gear towers with Athearn parts.   As for "messing with CV's", the Lenz BEMF decoders work straight out of the package.  They are no harder to program than any other decoder. (The Digitrax BEMF do require quite a bit of "messing").  

For the record, NONE of this should be necessary.  Why can't LL make a loco that runs without needing all these tweaks????  For the price, I don't think it's too much to expect (and yes, I have told LL that over the phone for all the good it did me)...

Jeff Warner

sjlash wrote:
Gang,  While talking to a local modeler and repairman, his statement to me was to the effect: fix mechanical problems mechanicaly and electronic problems electronically.. His experience in the past few years with both Plk and P2k units is that the problems more often than not involve the excessive gear "play" in the gear towers, primarily the "play" in the worm gear.  He has replaced the axle and gear with one from Athearn which helps reduce the "play" between the two gears, and has not had to mess with the "cv,s" or use the BEMF decoders.  Hope this helps     Jim 





--------------080903070309050403000301-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 07:34:01 EDT Subject: [PRR] Humidity swelling in the summer (not thermal expansion) --part1_66.230868f9.2a4b00a9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/23/02 10:40:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: flextrack installation > From: > Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 15:51:09 EDT > > Hi all; > > I'm searching for the correct installation proceedure for laying Atlas code > > 100 flextrack in HO guage. My model railroad club layed about 75 sections > of > 3 foot track since September of last year. During this time the building > temperature stayed fairly constant (75 degrees). Last week, someone > reset > the thermostat lower than normal. The rails contracted and gaps which were > around one eighth of an inch opened up and actually stopped a f-7 loco. > ( > a real show stopper!) This is a new layout built on 3/4 inch plywood, > with > cork roadbed. We installed the movable rails back to back on most of the > layout. > > My question is: When laying this flextrack should one alternate movable > rail > to non-movable to have more ability to adjust gaps to compensate for > expansion and contraction. Also how much air-gap is normal for proper > installation. We have spent a lot of time on the track trying to do it > right, > but we are all just learning and getting frustrated. > > We're planning on installing a locking cover on the stat, but 50 degree air > > comes out of the ceiling ducts any time the AC is running. Hope there's > somebody on the "list" who can give us some guidance. > > Thanks for any replys,Rich This is likely a humidity problem -- everybody "knows" rails are longer when warmer and shorter when they get colder, but actually the coefficient of thermal expansion is too small to generate these problems indoors (consult a physics or materials book). I suspect that when you set your thermostat lower, the AC pulled more moisture out of the air. You could check this with a hygrometer (humidity gauge). Here in Louisville it goes from quite humid in the summer to fairly dry in the winter -- both heating and AC will make the air in your home dryer than it is outside. First winter 24 years ago, I got a quarter inch gap in a 50 foot run of track -- the wooden benchwork, plywood subroadbed, and homasote roadbed was tied to the walls, and humidity shrinkage pulled the tracks apart in the center of a long run. Another time, our air conditioning was off for 3 weeks, and S curves (lengthwise compression loading) appeared everywhere the track wasn't held down tightly by glued ballast. Yes, solder curves and switch ladders together. Elsewhere, presolder 2 pieces of flextrack together with wire connections at both rail joiners. Then lay your straight runs. At the ends of a 6 to 8 foot run, leave a small gap and don't solder your joiners. This will distribute wintertime/dry air gapping Other folks swear by paint-sealing all wood and Homasote. I didn't resort to this in the last layout, although I do like to spray the top of Homasote a dark gray for looks -- better in case the layer of ballast has any holes in it. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Formerly operating the Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West --part1_66.230868f9.2a4b00a9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/23/02 10:40:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: flextrack installation
From: <RHS1066@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 15:51:09 EDT

Hi all;

I'm searching for the correct installation proceedure for laying Atlas code
100 flextrack in HO guage.  My model railroad club layed about 75 sections of
3 foot track since September of last year. During this time the building
temperature stayed fairly constant (75 degrees).    Last week, someone reset
the thermostat lower than normal. The rails contracted and gaps which were
around  one eighth of an inch opened    up and actually stopped a f-7 loco. (
a real show stopper!)   This is a new  layout built on 3/4 inch plywood, with
cork roadbed.  We installed the movable rails back to back on most of the
layout.

My question is: When laying this flextrack should one alternate movable rail
to non-movable to have more ability to adjust gaps to compensate for
expansion and contraction.  Also how much air-gap is normal for proper
installation. We have spent a lot of time on the track trying to do it right,
but we are all just learning and getting frustrated.

We're planning on installing a locking cover on the stat, but 50 degree air
comes out of the ceiling  ducts any time the AC is running. Hope there's
somebody on the "list" who can give us some guidance.   

Thanks for  any replys,Rich


This is likely a humidity problem -- everybody "knows" rails are longer when warmer and shorter when they get colder, but actually the coefficient of thermal expansion is too small to generate these problems indoors (consult a physics or materials book).  I suspect that when you set your thermostat lower, the AC pulled more moisture out of the air.  You could check this with a hygrometer (humidity gauge).

Here in Louisville it goes from quite humid in the summer to fairly dry in the winter -- both heating and AC will make the air in your home dryer than it is outside.  First winter 24 years ago, I got a quarter inch gap in a 50 foot run of track -- the wooden benchwork, plywood subroadbed, and homasote roadbed was tied to the walls, and humidity shrinkage pulled the tracks apart in the center of a long run.  Another time, our air conditioning was off for 3 weeks, and S curves (lengthwise compression loading) appeared everywhere the track wasn't held down tightly by glued ballast.

Yes, solder curves and switch ladders together.  Elsewhere, presolder 2 pieces of flextrack together with wire connections at both rail joiners.  Then lay your straight runs.  At the ends of a 6 to 8 foot run, leave a small gap and don't solder your joiners.  This will distribute wintertime/dry air gapping

Other folks swear by paint-sealing all wood and Homasote.  I didn't resort to this in the last layout, although I do like to spray the top of Homasote a dark gray for looks -- better in case the layer of ballast has any holes in it.

Til the next train out,
                             Rick Tipton - Louisville KY
                             Formerly operating the Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968)
                                    And Remembering PRR Lines West
--part1_66.230868f9.2a4b00a9_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 07:38:32 -0400 From: davep Subject: [PRR] RRs of today (ot) [ad rem the health of the RR industry....] ================================================================= Carload freight at highest level this year on U.S. railroads WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Carload freight on U.S. railroads reached its highest level this year during the week ended June 15, while intermodal traffic continued its recent surge, the Association of American Railroads (AAR) reported. Carload freight totaled 348,048 cars, up 6.6 percent from the corresponding week last year, with loadings up 13.0 percent in the West but down 0.4 percent in the East. Intermodal traffic, which is not included in the carload data, totaled 188,993 trailers and containers, up 9.1 percent from the comparable week last year. This was the second highest volume for any week this year and the tenth consecutive weekly increase from year earlier levels. Total volume was estimated at 28.9 billion ton-miles, up 5.5 percent from last year's 24th week. Fourteen of 19 commodity groups were up from last year, with loadings of metallic ores up 43.1 percent; stone, clay and glass products up 9.7 percent; crushed stone, sand and gravel up 7.4 percent; and coal up 6.9 percent. Coke volume was down 4.8 percent from last year while loadings of primary forest products decreased 3.7 percent. On the intermodal side, container volume rose 14.1 percent while trailer traffic fell 3.1 percent from last year. The AAR also reported the following cumulative totals for U.S. railroads during the first 24 weeks of 2002: 7,784,420 carloads, down 2.6 percent from last year; intermodal volume of 4,173,848 trailers and containers, up 3.7 percent; and total volume of an estimated 668.3 billion ton?miles, down 1.5 percent from last year's first 24 weeks. Railroads reporting to AAR account for 90 percent of U.S. carload freight and 97 percent of rail intermodal volume. When the U.S. operations of Canadian railroads are included, the figures increase to 96 percent and 99 percent. Railroads provide more than 40 percent of the nation's intercity freight transportation, more than any other mode, and rail traffic figures are regarded as an important economic indicator. Intermodal traffic was up but carload volume was down on Canadian railroads during the week ended June 15. Intermodal traffic totaled 40,886 trailers and containers, up 16.6 percent from last year. Carload volume was 59,785 cars, down 1.1 percent from the comparable week last year. Cumulative originations for the first 24 weeks of 2002 on the Canadian railroads totaled 1,458,152 carloads, down 3.0 percent from last year, and 884,940 trailers and containers, up 6.6 percent from last year. Combined cumulative volume for the first 24 weeks of 2002 on 16 reporting U.S. and Canadian railroads totaled 9,242,572 carloads, down 2.7 percent from last year and 5,058,788 trailers and containers, up 4.2 percent from last year. The AAR also reported that carload freight on the Mexican railroad Transportacion Ferroviaria Mexicana (TFM) during the week ended June 15 totaled 10,744 cars originated or received from connecting lines, up 18.6 percent from last year. TFM reported intermodal volume of 4,164 trailers or containers, up 13.5 percent from the 24th week of 2001. For the first 24 weeks of 2002, TFM reported cumulative volume of 248,646 cars, down 3.0 percent from last year, and 85,909 trailers or containers, up 5.1 percent. AAR is the world's leading railroad policy, research and technology organization focusing on the safety and productivity of rail carriers. ==================================================== -- best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 07:58:32 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Internet Service Providers From: Jerry Britton Please DO NOT reply on list. This information is for a subset of our subscribers and is provided in case they are not aware of business news that relates to their Internet Service Provider. ADELPHIA has filed for bankruptcy. This has been anticipated and has finally come to pass. It is unknown if there will be an interruption in Internet service or not. WORLDCOM, which owns MCI, will be huge in the news today. They "cooked their books" over the past five quarters and hid over 4 billion in expenses as "capital expenditures". Not so. One analyst on CNNfn quipped that the company will not survive and will go into bankruptcy. Wanna guess who their auditor was? Yup, Andersen. I provide this info, as if you have one of these companies as your ISP you might want to "start looking" in order to have adequate time to make a peaceful transition. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liner/Lenz BEMF decoders Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 08:03:05 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C21CE7.E6F600A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jeff and Jim and all: I do agree with Jim's repairman, the P2K and P1K play between the worm = and gear is excessive. A reduction in diametral pitch may help, but = this is easier said then done. I have noticed that many locomotive = manufacturers will use a single lead worm and mesh it with a spur gear, = which in the gear world is an absolute no-no. In the model train word, = however, this seems to work ok. Reason, worm gear drives, particularly = single lead, act as back stops when the turning effort is from the low = end of the gear train. If we had too little gear backlash, we'd = probably experience a lot of bucking on the down grade as the train will = try to push the loco causing the gear box to "brake" the engine's speed. = Too much backlash seems to cause problems as well. I must agree with = my good friend Jeff, that it's an easy fix to use a BEMF decoder. = Especially since there are additional benefits such as better, no, MUCH = better low end speed control, et cetera. By the way, in the mechanical = power transmission industry, many things that are mechanical problems = are fixed with electrical solutions. Larry =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jeff Warner=20 To: sjlash=20 Cc: PRR- Talk=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 12:38 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liner/Lenz BEMF decoders Jim: This is where Larry Reynolds and myself started in trying to fix the = P1K/P2K "bucking" problem on grades. What we found is that the problem = was specific to DCC. With the dummy plug in, the problem did not = exist. I did try to get the play out of the worm gear using thrust = washers with minimal success. I did not go so far as to replace all the = parts you mentioned and that certainly may be an answer... To me, the additional of a BEMF decoder compared to a "normal" decoder = is less than the cost and time needed to rebuild the gear towers with = Athearn parts. As for "messing with CV's", the Lenz BEMF decoders work = straight out of the package. They are no harder to program than any = other decoder. (The Digitrax BEMF do require quite a bit of "messing"). = For the record, NONE of this should be necessary. Why can't LL make a = loco that runs without needing all these tweaks???? For the price, I = don't think it's too much to expect (and yes, I have told LL that over = the phone for all the good it did me)... Jeff Warner sjlash wrote: Gang, While talking to a local modeler and repairman, his = statement to me was to the effect: fix mechanical problems mechanicaly = and electronic problems electronically.. His experience in the past few = years with both Plk and P2k units is that the problems more often than = not involve the excessive gear "play" in the gear towers, primarily the = "play" in the worm gear. He has replaced the axle and gear with one = from Athearn which helps reduce the "play" between the two gears, and = has not had to mess with the "cv,s" or use the BEMF decoders. Hope this = helps Jim =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C21CE7.E6F600A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jeff and Jim and all:
 
I do agree with Jim's repairman, the = P2K and P1K=20 play between the worm and gear is excessive.  A reduction in = diametral=20 pitch may help, but this is easier said then done.  I have = noticed=20 that many locomotive manufacturers will use a single lead worm and = mesh it=20 with a spur gear, which in the gear world is an absolute no-no.  In = the=20 model train word, however, this seems to work ok.  Reason, worm = gear=20 drives, particularly single lead, act as back stops when the=20 turning effort is from the low end of the gear train.  If = we had=20 too little gear backlash, we'd probably experience a lot of = bucking on=20 the down grade as the train will try to push the loco causing the = gear box=20 to "brake" the engine's speed.  Too much backlash seems to cause = problems=20 as well.  I must agree with my good friend Jeff, that it's an = easy fix=20 to use a BEMF decoder.  Especially since there are additional = benefits such=20 as better, no, MUCH better low end speed control, et = cetera.  By=20 the way, in the mechanical power transmission industry, many things = that=20 are mechanical problems are fixed with electrical = solutions.
 
Larry 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jeff=20 Warner
To: sjlash
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 = 12:38=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liner/Lenz = BEMF=20 decoders

Jim:

This is where Larry Reynolds and myself = started in=20 trying to fix the P1K/P2K "bucking" problem on grades.  What we = found is=20 that the problem was specific to DCC.   With the dummy plug in, = the=20 problem did not exist.  I did try to get the play out of the worm = gear=20 using thrust washers with minimal success.  I did not go so far = as to=20 replace all the parts you mentioned and that certainly may be an=20 answer...

To me, the additional of a BEMF decoder compared to a = "normal" decoder is less than the cost and time needed to rebuild the = gear=20 towers with Athearn parts.   As for "messing with CV's", the Lenz = BEMF=20 decoders work straight out of the package.  They are no harder to = program=20 than any other decoder. (The Digitrax BEMF do require quite a bit of=20 "messing").  

For the record, NONE of this should be = necessary.=20  Why can't LL make a loco that runs without needing all these = tweaks????=20  For the price, I don't think it's too much to expect (and yes, I = have=20 told LL that over the phone for all the good it did me)...

Jeff = Warner

sjlash wrote:
Gang,  While talking to a local modeler and = repairman, his=20 statement to me was to the effect: fix mechanical problems = mechanicaly=20 and electronic problems electronically.. His experience in the = past=20 few years with both Plk and P2k units is that the = problems more=20 often than not involve the excessive gear "play" in the gear = towers,=20 primarily the "play" in the worm gear.  He has = replaced the=20 axle and gear with one from Athearn which helps reduce=20 the "play" between the two gears, and has not had to = mess=20 with the "cv,s" or use the BEMF decoders.  Hope this=20 helps     Jim 

<= /BLOCKQUOTE>

------=_NextPart_000_0036_01C21CE7.E6F600A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 09:20:24 -0400 (EDT) From: chaslett@cse.l-3com.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Trees at the Curve Hi to all, Yes, the tree removal and brush / weed trimming at the Curve has begun! According to my sister in Altoona, it was reported last evening on their local TV news. Carl Haslett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 09:30:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Trees at the Curve From: Jerry Britton On 6/26/02 9:20 AM, chaslett@cse.l-3com.com (chaslett@cse.l-3com.com) wrote: > Yes, the tree removal and brush / weed trimming at the Curve has begun! > According to my sister in Altoona, it was reported last evening on > their local TV news. > This is EXCELLENT news! That means there should be a clear view for RailFest! Now the question is, how much will be done? The original plan, as I read about two years ago, was to do the area in the center of the curve and two "windows" on the approaches...not the entire curve itself. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] RRs of today (ot) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 09:58:11 -0400 Dave, These figures are what used to be called the CS54 Report of the AAR. In the mid 1960's, the PRR alone showed around 40,000 cars weekly Loaded on Line. For the Week Ending June 15, 2002, ALL THE CLASS I's show only 59,785. I know cars are larger. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "davep" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 7:38 AM Subject: [PRR] RRs of today (ot) > [ad rem the health of the RR industry....] > ================================================================= > Carload freight at highest level this year on U.S. railroads > WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Carload freight on U.S. railroads reached its > highest level this year during the week ended June 15, while intermodal > traffic continued its recent surge, the Association of American > Railroads (AAR) reported. > > Carload freight totaled 348,048 cars, up 6.6 percent from the > corresponding week last year, with loadings up 13.0 percent in the West > but down 0.4 percent in the East. > > Intermodal traffic, which is not included in the carload data, totaled > 188,993 trailers and containers, up 9.1 percent from the comparable week > last year. This was the second highest volume for any week this year and > the tenth consecutive weekly increase from year earlier levels. Total > volume was estimated at 28.9 billion ton-miles, up 5.5 percent from last > year's 24th week. > > Fourteen of 19 commodity groups were up from last year, with loadings of > metallic ores up 43.1 percent; stone, clay and glass products up 9.7 > percent; crushed stone, sand and gravel up 7.4 percent; and coal up 6.9 > percent. Coke volume was down 4.8 percent from last year while loadings > of primary forest products decreased 3.7 percent. On the intermodal > side, container volume rose 14.1 percent while trailer traffic fell 3.1 > percent from last year. > > The AAR also reported the following cumulative totals for U.S. railroads > during the first 24 weeks of 2002: 7,784,420 carloads, down 2.6 percent > from last year; intermodal volume of 4,173,848 trailers and containers, > up 3.7 percent; and total volume of an estimated 668.3 billion > ton?miles, down 1.5 percent from last year's first 24 weeks. > > Railroads reporting to AAR account for 90 percent of U.S. carload > freight and 97 percent of rail intermodal volume. When the U.S. > operations of Canadian railroads are included, the figures increase to > 96 percent and 99 percent. Railroads provide more than 40 percent of the > nation's intercity freight transportation, more than any other mode, and > rail traffic figures are regarded as an important economic indicator. > > Intermodal traffic was up but carload volume was down on Canadian > railroads during the week ended June 15. Intermodal traffic totaled > 40,886 trailers and containers, up 16.6 percent from last year. Carload > volume was 59,785 cars, down 1.1 percent from the comparable week last year. > > Cumulative originations for the first 24 weeks of 2002 on the Canadian > railroads totaled 1,458,152 carloads, down 3.0 percent from last year, > and 884,940 trailers and containers, up 6.6 percent from last year. > > Combined cumulative volume for the first 24 weeks of 2002 on 16 > reporting U.S. and Canadian railroads totaled 9,242,572 carloads, down > 2.7 percent from last year and 5,058,788 trailers and containers, up 4.2 > percent from last year. > > The AAR also reported that carload freight on the Mexican railroad > Transportacion Ferroviaria Mexicana (TFM) during the week ended June 15 > totaled 10,744 cars originated or received from connecting lines, up > 18.6 percent from last year. TFM reported intermodal volume of 4,164 > trailers or containers, up 13.5 percent from the 24th week of 2001. For > the first 24 weeks of 2002, TFM reported cumulative volume of 248,646 > cars, down 3.0 percent from last year, and 85,909 trailers or > containers, up 5.1 percent. > > AAR is the world's leading railroad policy, research and technology > organization focusing on the safety and productivity of rail carriers. > ==================================================== > -- > best > dwp > > ...the net of a million lies... > Vernor Vinge > There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. > -me > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Farquhar" Subject: Re: [PRR] Humidity swelling in the summer (not thermal expansion) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:49:41 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C21D07.8E705BE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As on the prototype, consider three things when laying rail, drainage, = drainage, and drainage. For our Model RRs, consider sealing the = homosote, sealing the homosote, sealing the homosote (if you use it of = course....GRIN). Then the rest is moot. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RickTipton@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 7:34 AM Subject: [PRR] Humidity swelling in the summer (not thermal expansion) In a message dated 6/23/02 10:40:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, = PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: Subject: flextrack installation From: Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 15:51:09 EDT Hi all;=20 I'm searching for the correct installation proceedure for laying = Atlas code=20 100 flextrack in HO guage. My model railroad club layed about 75 = sections of=20 3 foot track since September of last year. During this time the = building=20 temperature stayed fairly constant (75 degrees). Last week, = someone reset=20 the thermostat lower than normal. The rails contracted and gaps = which were=20 around one eighth of an inch opened up and actually stopped a = f-7 loco. (=20 a real show stopper!) This is a new layout built on 3/4 inch = plywood, with=20 cork roadbed. We installed the movable rails back to back on most = of the=20 layout.=20 My question is: When laying this flextrack should one alternate = movable rail=20 to non-movable to have more ability to adjust gaps to compensate for = expansion and contraction. Also how much air-gap is normal for = proper=20 installation. We have spent a lot of time on the track trying to do = it right,=20 but we are all just learning and getting frustrated. We're planning on installing a locking cover on the stat, but 50 = degree air=20 comes out of the ceiling ducts any time the AC is running. Hope = there's=20 somebody on the "list" who can give us some guidance. =20 Thanks for any replys,Rich This is likely a humidity problem -- everybody "knows" rails are = longer when warmer and shorter when they get colder, but actually the = coefficient of thermal expansion is too small to generate these problems = indoors (consult a physics or materials book). I suspect that when you = set your thermostat lower, the AC pulled more moisture out of the air. = You could check this with a hygrometer (humidity gauge). Here in Louisville it goes from quite humid in the summer to fairly = dry in the winter -- both heating and AC will make the air in your home = dryer than it is outside. First winter 24 years ago, I got a quarter = inch gap in a 50 foot run of track -- the wooden benchwork, plywood = subroadbed, and homasote roadbed was tied to the walls, and humidity = shrinkage pulled the tracks apart in the center of a long run. Another = time, our air conditioning was off for 3 weeks, and S curves (lengthwise = compression loading) appeared everywhere the track wasn't held down = tightly by glued ballast. Yes, solder curves and switch ladders together. Elsewhere, presolder = 2 pieces of flextrack together with wire connections at both rail = joiners. Then lay your straight runs. At the ends of a 6 to 8 foot = run, leave a small gap and don't solder your joiners. This will = distribute wintertime/dry air gapping Other folks swear by paint-sealing all wood and Homasote. I didn't = resort to this in the last layout, although I do like to spray the top = of Homasote a dark gray for looks -- better in case the layer of ballast = has any holes in it.=20 Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Formerly operating the Panhandle Route in = HO (Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C21D07.8E705BE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As on the prototype, consider three = things when=20 laying rail, drainage, drainage, and drainage.  For our Model RRs, = consider=20 sealing the homosote, sealing the homosote, sealing the homosote (if you = use it=20 of course....GRIN).  Then the rest is moot.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RickTipton@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 = 7:34=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] Humidity = swelling in the=20 summer (not thermal expansion)

In a message dated 6/23/02 = 10:40:26 PM=20 Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 writes:


Subject: flextrack installation
From: <RHS1066@aol.com>
Date: = Sun, 23 Jun=20 2002 15:51:09 EDT

Hi all;

I'm searching for the = correct=20 installation proceedure for laying Atlas code
100 flextrack in = HO=20 guage.  My model railroad club layed about 75 sections of
3 = foot=20 track since September of last year. During this time the building=20
temperature stayed fairly constant (75 = degrees).    Last=20 week, someone reset
the thermostat lower than normal. The rails=20 contracted and gaps which were
around  one eighth of an = inch=20 opened    up and actually stopped a f-7 loco. (
a = real=20 show stopper!)   This is a new  layout built on 3/4 = inch=20 plywood, with
cork roadbed.  We installed the movable rails = back to=20 back on most of the
layout.

My question is: When laying = this=20 flextrack should one alternate movable rail
to non-movable to = have more=20 ability to adjust gaps to compensate for
expansion and=20 contraction.  Also how much air-gap is normal for proper=20
installation. We have spent a lot of time on the track trying to = do it=20 right,
but we are all just learning and getting = frustrated.

We're=20 planning on installing a locking cover on the stat, but 50 degree = air=20
comes out of the ceiling  ducts any time the AC is running. = Hope=20 there's
somebody on the "list" who can give us some=20 guidance.   

Thanks for  any=20 replys,Rich

This is likely a humidity problem -- everybody = "knows"=20 rails are longer when warmer and shorter when they get colder, but = actually=20 the coefficient of thermal expansion is too small to generate these = problems=20 indoors (consult a physics or materials book).  I suspect that = when you=20 set your thermostat lower, the AC pulled more moisture out of the = air. =20 You could check this with a hygrometer (humidity gauge).

Here = in=20 Louisville it goes from quite humid in the summer to fairly dry in the = winter=20 -- both heating and AC will make the air in your home dryer than it is = outside.  First winter 24 years ago, I got a quarter inch gap in = a 50=20 foot run of track -- the wooden benchwork, plywood subroadbed, and = homasote=20 roadbed was tied to the walls, and humidity shrinkage pulled the = tracks apart=20 in the center of a long run.  Another time, our air conditioning = was off=20 for 3 weeks, and S curves (lengthwise compression loading) appeared = everywhere=20 the track wasn't held down tightly by glued ballast.

Yes, = solder curves=20 and switch ladders together.  Elsewhere, presolder 2 pieces of = flextrack=20 together with wire connections at both rail joiners.  Then lay = your=20 straight runs.  At the ends of a 6 to 8 foot run, leave a small = gap and=20 don't solder your joiners.  This will distribute wintertime/dry = air=20 gapping

Other folks swear by paint-sealing all wood and = Homasote. =20 I didn't resort to this in the last layout, although I do like to = spray the=20 top of Homasote a dark gray for looks -- better in case the layer of = ballast=20 has any holes in it.

Til the next train=20 = out,
           = ;            =      =20 Rick Tipton - Louisville=20 = KY
           &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;    =20 Formerly operating the Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR = Columbus Div.=20 = 1968)
          &nbs= p;            = ;            = =20 And Remembering PRR Lines West =
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C21D07.8E705BE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Humidity swelling in the summer (not thermal expansion) Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:23:55 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C21D03.F56157E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! I hate to disagree, but IMHO, the sealing is optional. Here in Texas, = at the Texas Western Model Railroad Club in South Fort Worth, where we = get some humidity, a large temperature variation, we do have some = swelling. But we do not seal or paint the homosote in any way, and have = had none of the problems y'all have been talking about. Why? I = couldn't begin to say! As for rail expansion/contraction, yes, we = solder around curves, and usually every two sections of track, leaving = gaps every other section on straights. No gaps on curves. That' asking = for trouble! All this is IMHO, so deal with that homosote accordingly. = Seal if you must! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist! PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Farquhar=20 To: RickTipton@aol.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, 26 June, 2002 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Humidity swelling in the summer (not thermal = expansion) As on the prototype, consider three things when laying rail, drainage, = drainage, and drainage. For our Model RRs, consider sealing the = homosote, sealing the homosote, sealing the homosote (if you use it of = course....GRIN). Then the rest is moot. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RickTipton@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 7:34 AM Subject: [PRR] Humidity swelling in the summer (not thermal = expansion) In a message dated 6/23/02 10:40:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, = PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: Subject: flextrack installation From: Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 15:51:09 EDT Hi all;=20 I'm searching for the correct installation proceedure for laying = Atlas code=20 100 flextrack in HO guage. My model railroad club layed about 75 = sections of=20 3 foot track since September of last year. During this time the = building=20 temperature stayed fairly constant (75 degrees). Last week, = someone reset=20 the thermostat lower than normal. The rails contracted and gaps = which were=20 around one eighth of an inch opened up and actually stopped a = f-7 loco. (=20 a real show stopper!) This is a new layout built on 3/4 inch = plywood, with=20 cork roadbed. We installed the movable rails back to back on most = of the=20 layout.=20 My question is: When laying this flextrack should one alternate = movable rail=20 to non-movable to have more ability to adjust gaps to compensate = for=20 expansion and contraction. Also how much air-gap is normal for = proper=20 installation. We have spent a lot of time on the track trying to = do it right,=20 but we are all just learning and getting frustrated. We're planning on installing a locking cover on the stat, but 50 = degree air=20 comes out of the ceiling ducts any time the AC is running. Hope = there's=20 somebody on the "list" who can give us some guidance. =20 Thanks for any replys,Rich This is likely a humidity problem -- everybody "knows" rails are = longer when warmer and shorter when they get colder, but actually the = coefficient of thermal expansion is too small to generate these problems = indoors (consult a physics or materials book). I suspect that when you = set your thermostat lower, the AC pulled more moisture out of the air. = You could check this with a hygrometer (humidity gauge). Here in Louisville it goes from quite humid in the summer to fairly = dry in the winter -- both heating and AC will make the air in your home = dryer than it is outside. First winter 24 years ago, I got a quarter = inch gap in a 50 foot run of track -- the wooden benchwork, plywood = subroadbed, and homasote roadbed was tied to the walls, and humidity = shrinkage pulled the tracks apart in the center of a long run. Another = time, our air conditioning was off for 3 weeks, and S curves (lengthwise = compression loading) appeared everywhere the track wasn't held down = tightly by glued ballast. Yes, solder curves and switch ladders together. Elsewhere, = presolder 2 pieces of flextrack together with wire connections at both = rail joiners. Then lay your straight runs. At the ends of a 6 to 8 = foot run, leave a small gap and don't solder your joiners. This will = distribute wintertime/dry air gapping Other folks swear by paint-sealing all wood and Homasote. I didn't = resort to this in the last layout, although I do like to spray the top = of Homasote a dark gray for looks -- better in case the layer of ballast = has any holes in it.=20 Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Formerly operating the Panhandle Route = in HO (Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C21D03.F56157E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi!
 
I hate to disagree, but IMHO, = the sealing is=20 optional.  Here in Texas, at the Texas Western Model Railroad Club = in South=20 Fort Worth, where we get some humidity, a large temperature variation, = we do=20 have some swelling.  But we do not seal or paint the homosote in = any way,=20 and have had none of the problems y'all have been talking about. =20 Why?  I couldn't begin to say!  As for rail = expansion/contraction,=20 yes, we solder around curves, and usually every two sections of track, = leaving=20 gaps every other section on straights.  No gaps on curves.  = That'=20 asking for trouble!  All this is IMHO, so deal with that homosote=20 accordingly.  Seal if you must!
 
Morgan=20 Bilbo
Ferroequinologist!
PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy = Nut!
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John = Farquhar=20
To: RickTipton@aol.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, 26 June, 2002 = 10:49=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Humidity = swelling in=20 the summer (not thermal expansion)

As on the prototype, consider = three things=20 when laying rail, drainage, drainage, and drainage.  For our = Model RRs,=20 consider sealing the homosote, sealing the homosote, sealing the = homosote (if=20 you use it of course....GRIN).  Then the rest is = moot.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RickTipton@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, = 2002 7:34=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] Humidity = swelling in the=20 summer (not thermal expansion)

In a message dated = 6/23/02 10:40:26 PM=20 Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 writes:


Subject: flextrack installation
From: <RHS1066@aol.com>
Date: = Sun, 23 Jun=20 2002 15:51:09 EDT

Hi all;

I'm searching for the = correct=20 installation proceedure for laying Atlas code
100 flextrack in = HO=20 guage.  My model railroad club layed about 75 sections of =
3 foot=20 track since September of last year. During this time the building=20
temperature stayed fairly constant (75 = degrees).   =20 Last week, someone reset
the thermostat lower than normal. The = rails=20 contracted and gaps which were
around  one eighth of an = inch=20 opened    up and actually stopped a f-7 loco. ( =
a real=20 show stopper!)   This is a new  layout built on 3/4 = inch=20 plywood, with
cork roadbed.  We installed the movable = rails back=20 to back on most of the
layout.

My question is: When = laying=20 this flextrack should one alternate movable rail
to = non-movable to=20 have more ability to adjust gaps to compensate for
expansion = and=20 contraction.  Also how much air-gap is normal for proper=20
installation. We have spent a lot of time on the track trying = to do it=20 right,
but we are all just learning and getting=20 frustrated.

We're planning on installing a locking cover on = the=20 stat, but 50 degree air
comes out of the ceiling  ducts = any time=20 the AC is running. Hope there's
somebody on the "list" who can = give us=20 some guidance.   

Thanks for  any=20 replys,Rich


This is likely a humidity problem -- everybody = "knows"=20 rails are longer when warmer and shorter when they get colder, but = actually=20 the coefficient of thermal expansion is too small to generate these = problems=20 indoors (consult a physics or materials book).  I suspect that = when you=20 set your thermostat lower, the AC pulled more moisture out of the = air. =20 You could check this with a hygrometer (humidity gauge).

Here = in=20 Louisville it goes from quite humid in the summer to fairly dry in = the=20 winter -- both heating and AC will make the air in your home dryer = than it=20 is outside.  First winter 24 years ago, I got a quarter inch = gap in a=20 50 foot run of track -- the wooden benchwork, plywood subroadbed, = and=20 homasote roadbed was tied to the walls, and humidity shrinkage = pulled the=20 tracks apart in the center of a long run.  Another time, our = air=20 conditioning was off for 3 weeks, and S curves (lengthwise = compression=20 loading) appeared everywhere the track wasn't held down tightly by = glued=20 ballast.

Yes, solder curves and switch ladders = together. =20 Elsewhere, presolder 2 pieces of flextrack together with wire = connections at=20 both rail joiners.  Then lay your straight runs.  At the = ends of a=20 6 to 8 foot run, leave a small gap and don't solder your = joiners.  This=20 will distribute wintertime/dry air gapping

Other folks swear = by=20 paint-sealing all wood and Homasote.  I didn't resort to this = in the=20 last layout, although I do like to spray the top of Homasote a dark = gray for=20 looks -- better in case the layer of ballast has any holes in it.=20

Til the next train=20 = out,
           = ;            =      =20 Rick Tipton - Louisville=20 = KY
           &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;    =20 Formerly operating the Panhandle Route in HO
(Pennsylvania RR = Columbus=20 Div.=20 = 1968)
          &nbs= p;            = ;            = =20 And Remembering PRR Lines West=20
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C21D03.F56157E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:58:14 -0400 From: Nick Kulp Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/26/02 --=====================_2991836==.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Jim and listers, I too operate on Larry Reynold's layout, Jeff Warner's, and I have a group that operates on mine as well. I have been a repairman for two hobby shops in the past and I still work on locos on occasion for friends. The LifeLike gear trains are indeed sloppy and could benefit from a small dose of quality control to eliminate the massive backlash in their geartrain. It certainly depends on where your interests lie. If you choose to buy new gears, tear apart the existing mechanism, and spend the time performing this "surgery". Then by all means, do it. Then, if you are running DCC, buy a non-Lenz decoder and hope that you have repaired the problem. I don't know Jim's repairman, nor his experience and I certainly do not mean to imply he is wrong, on the contrary, he is correct in his statement. A complete regearing and thrust washer installation would solve the problem. The logical question is WHY DO YOU HAVE TO DO THIS ??? We spend premium dollars for these locos, LifeLike is well aware of the problem (it has existed since their release of the first loco in 1992). If you are running DCC the simplest solution is to buy the LENZ decoders and the problem is SOLVED. I have seen it and it works EVERY TIME with no exceptions. Locos that would fight each other going downgrade run like Swiss watches. There is no need for argument here. If you buy LifeLike locos and run DCC. Use a Lenz Back EMF decoder if you want the loco to perform. Or spend EXTRA money and replace the gears and then pay for another decoder. I have several of the affected locos, some of which, like the Alco FAs are sold as AB sets. They do NOT mu together without bucking on downgrades. I like the simple solution so I can spend moretime running trains than working on manufacturer's poor quality control. Until LifeLike admits the problem the LENZ decoders will fix the problem fora small price. Sorry for the rant but this is a sore subject since LifeLike continues to sell poor mechanisms at high prices. Regards, Nick Kulp >PRR-Talk Digest - Wednesday, June 26, 2002 > > Re: [PRR] C-Liner/Lenz BEMF decoders > by "Jeff Warner" > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liner/Lenz BEMF decoders >From: "Jeff Warner" >Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 00:38:45 -0400 > > >--------------080903070309050403000301 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Jim: > >This is where Larry Reynolds and myself started in trying to fix the >P1K/P2K "bucking" problem on grades. What we found is that the problem >was specific to DCC. With the dummy plug in, the problem did not >exist. I did try to get the play out of the worm gear using thrust >washers with minimal success. I did not go so far as to replace all the >parts you mentioned and that certainly may be an answer... > >To me, the additional of a BEMF decoder compared to a "normal" decoder >is less than the cost and time needed to rebuild the gear towers with >Athearn parts. As for "messing with CV's", the Lenz BEMF decoders work >straight out of the package. They are no harder to program than any >other decoder. (The Digitrax BEMF do require quite a bit of "messing"). > >For the record, NONE of this should be necessary. Why can't LL make a >loco that runs without needing all these tweaks???? For the price, I >don't think it's too much to expect (and yes, I have told LL that over >the phone for all the good it did me)... > >Jeff Warner > >sjlash wrote: > > > Gang, While talking to a local modeler and repairman, his statement > > to me was to the effect: fix mechanical problems mechanicaly and > > electronic problems electronically.. His experience in the past few > > years with both Plk and P2k units is that the problems more often than > > not involve the excessive gear "play" in the gear towers, primarily > > the "play" in the worm gear. He has replaced the axle and gear with > > one from Athearn which helps reduce the "play" between the two > > gears, and has not had to mess with the "cv,s" or use the BEMF > > decoders. Hope this helps Jim > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------080903070309050403000301 >Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Jim: > >This is where Larry Reynolds and myself started in trying to fix the >P1K/P2K "bucking" problem on grades. What we found is that the problem >was specific to DCC. With the dummy plug in, the problem did not >exist. I did try to get the play out of the worm gear using thrust >washers with minimal success. I did not go so far as to replace all the >parts you mentioned and that certainly may be an answer... > >To me, the additional of a BEMF decoder compared to a "normal" decoder is >less than the cost and time needed to rebuild the gear towers with Athearn >parts. As for "messing with CV's", the Lenz BEMF decoders work straight >out of the package. They are no harder to program than any other decoder. >(The Digitrax BEMF do require quite a bit of "messing"). > >For the record, NONE of this should be necessary. Why can't LL make a >loco that runs without needing all these tweaks???? For the price, I >don't think it's too much to expect (and yes, I have told LL that over the >phone for all the good it did me)... > >Jeff Warner > >sjlash wrote: >>Gang, While talking to a local modeler and repairman, his statement to >>me was to the effect: fix mechanical problems mechanicaly and electronic >>problems electronically.. His experience in the past few years with both >>Plk and P2k units is that the problems more often than not involve the >>excessive gear "play" in the gear towers, primarily the "play" in the >>worm gear. He has replaced the axle and gear with one from Athearn which >>helps reduce the "play" between the two gears, and has not had to mess >>with the "cv,s" or use the BEMF decoders. Hope this helps Jim >> >> > > > >--------------080903070309050403000301-- > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >End of PRR-Talk Digest > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --=====================_2991836==.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Jim and listers,

I too operate on Larry Reynold's layout, Jeff Warner's, and I have a group that operates on mine as well. I have been a repairman for two hobby shops in the past and I still work on locos on occasion for friends. The LifeLike gear trains are indeed sloppy and could benefit from a small dose of quality control to eliminate the massive backlash in their geartrain. It certainly depends on where your interests lie. If you choose to buy new gears, tear apart the existing mechanism, and spend the time performing this "surgery". Then by all means, do it. Then, if you are running DCC, buy a non-Lenz decoder and hope that you have repaired the problem.

I don't know Jim's repairman, nor his experience and I certainly do not mean to imply he is wrong, on the contrary, he is correct in his statement. A complete regearing and thrust washer installation would solve the problem. The logical question is WHY DO YOU HAVE TO DO THIS ??? We spend premium dollars for these locos, LifeLike is well aware of the problem (it has existed since their release of the first loco in 1992).

If you are running DCC the simplest solution is to buy the LENZ decoders and the problem is SOLVED. I have seen it and it works EVERY TIME with no exceptions. Locos that would fight each other going downgrade run like Swiss watches. There is no need for argument here. If you buy LifeLike locos and run DCC. Use a Lenz Back EMF decoder if you want the loco to perform. Or spend EXTRA money and replace the gears and then pay for another decoder. I have several of the affected locos, some of which, like the Alco FAs are sold as AB sets. They do NOT mu together without bucking on downgrades. I like the simple solution so I can spend moretime running trains than working on manufacturer's poor quality control. Until LifeLike admits the problem the LENZ decoders will fix the problem fora small price.

Sorry for the rant but this is a sore subject since LifeLike continues to sell poor mechanisms at high prices.

Regards,
Nick Kulp

PRR-Talk Digest - Wednesday, June 26, 2002

  Re: [PRR] C-Liner/Lenz BEMF decoders
          by "Jeff Warner" <jeffrywarner@suscom.net>


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liner/Lenz BEMF decoders
From: "Jeff Warner" <jeffrywarner@suscom.net>
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 00:38:45 -0400


--------------080903070309050403000301
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jim:

This is where Larry Reynolds and myself started in trying to fix the
P1K/P2K "bucking" problem on grades.  What we found is that the problem
was specific to DCC.   With the dummy plug in, the problem did not
exist.  I did try to get the play out of the worm gear using thrust
washers with minimal success.  I did not go so far as to replace all the
parts you mentioned and that certainly may be an answer...

To me, the additional of a BEMF decoder compared to a "normal" decoder
is less than the cost and time needed to rebuild the gear towers with
Athearn parts.   As for "messing with CV's", the Lenz BEMF decoders work
straight out of the package.  They are no harder to program than any
other decoder. (The Digitrax BEMF do require quite a bit of "messing"). 

For the record, NONE of this should be necessary.  Why can't LL make a
loco that runs without needing all these tweaks????  For the price, I
don't think it's too much to expect (and yes, I have told LL that over
the phone for all the good it did me)...

Jeff Warner

sjlash wrote:

> Gang,  While talking to a local modeler and repairman, his statement
> to me was to the effect: fix mechanical problems mechanicaly and
> electronic problems electronically.. His experience in the past few
> years with both Plk and P2k units is that the problems more often than
> not involve the excessive gear "play" in the gear towers, primarily
> the "play" in the worm gear.  He has replaced the axle and gear with
> one from Athearn which helps reduce the "play" between the two
> gears, and has not had to mess with the "cv,s" or use the BEMF
> decoders.  Hope this helps     Jim
>
>
>
>



--------------080903070309050403000301
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jim:

This is where Larry Reynolds and myself started in trying to fix the P1K/P2K "bucking" problem on grades.  What we found is that the problem was specific to DCC.   With the dummy plug in, the problem did not exist.  I did try to get the play out of the worm gear using thrust washers with minimal success.  I did not go so far as to replace all the parts you mentioned and that certainly may be an answer...

To me, the additional of a BEMF decoder compared to a "normal" decoder is less than the cost and time needed to rebuild the gear towers with Athearn parts.   As for "messing with CV's", the Lenz BEMF decoders work straight out of the package.  They are no harder to program than any other decoder. (The Digitrax BEMF do require quite a bit of "messing"). 

For the record, NONE of this should be necessary.  Why can't LL make a loco that runs without needing all these tweaks????  For the price, I don't think it's too much to expect (and yes, I have told LL that over the phone for all the good it did me)...

Jeff Warner

sjlash wrote:
Gang,  While talking to a local modeler and repairman, his statement to me was to the effect: fix mechanical problems mechanicaly and electronic problems electronically.. His experience in the past few years with both Plk and P2k units is that the problems more often than not involve the excessive gear "play" in the gear towers, primarily the "play" in the worm gear.  He has replaced the axle and gear with one from Athearn which helps reduce the "play" between the two gears, and has not had to mess with the "cv,s" or use the BEMF decoders.  Hope this helps     Jim





--------------080903070309050403000301--


----------------------------------------------------------------------
End of PRR-Talk Digest

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
--=====================_2991836==.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] South Jersey Question Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 05:37:26 +0000 The active line was the old PRSL WJ&S mainline to Vineland and Millville. The abandonned line was the old PRSL Bridgeton Branch via Elmer. The tracks stop just a short ways past the crossing. Glassboro was a pretty active station and junction that until 1948 formed the primary terminus of the WJ&S electric interurban service from Camden. The whole Glassboro complex contained the station building, an interlocking tower, a split platform serving the Millville line and the Bridgeton branch, a freight station, 3-4 car storage tracks, an industrial siding and a wye track. Most of these or their foundations are still within the triangle bounded by the road w/ the 2 track crossing you saw and the Glassboro station building, all heavily grown over of course. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:59:43 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Township Sues Red Caboose Motel From: Jerry Britton Headline from today... (http://www.msnbc.com/local/wgal/A1238905.asp) Township Sues Red Caboose Motel LANCASTER, Pa., 10:26 a.m. EDT June 26, 2002 - There is more trouble for Lancaster County's Red Caboose Motel located near Strasburg. Paradise Township is suing the motel, saying it failed to maintain its sewage treatment system after a sewer leak on the lawn. The state Department of Environmental Protection shut down the motel 13 days ago for not fixing unhealthy nitrate levels in its drinking water. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 15:45:16 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Re: Crawler cranes Do the FM flats have side boards? --------------- Yes, the slide I have of the class FM flat w/ crawler crane has a single side board, about 8" high. It must be fixed directly to the deck as there are no stakes in any of the pockets. It also has the crane boom tie down ears (see below). =============== In addition to the cut down sides, there appears to be an added "top sill" to the sides and metal plates were bolted to the sill where the sides were removed to provide tie downs for the boom. --------------- Yes, there is a "top sill" across the remaining sides, and in the void between the first and second stakes where the side is removed there is a 1" (+/-) thick steel plate attached to the side sill (four all together), which is an anchor point (tie down ears) for the crane boom while traveling to and from a work site. Remember when operating, the speed of train is dependent on the crane (a.k.a. rotating machinery) being boom forward or boom trailing. =============== Were they all class FXL? --------------- It's difficult to tell from the 1941 roster what the classes are as they aren't listed. There is just a code number (probably some accounting code). However, of the 19 "living and idler" cars (which all have the same code number), the photos of the two I have seen (different numbers) are class FXL. So it is quite possible they were all FXL and Martin did make an error in assuming the basic car was a class FM. I had another MW friend of mind recently make the same mistake until I pointed out the XL rather than FM spotting features of the car, it's easy to do. Perhaps somebody who knows Martin can put him in touch with me and I could check out the photo from whence he made the model and see for sure what it is. From what I have heard about his seal for accuracy, he should be interested. I looked at my inbuilt Sunshine FM kit and the house he has in it would certainly work on the proposed Westerfield XL conversion bash. Making it either a Westershine or Sunfield kit, possibly the subject for a short one page modeling article for "The Keystone." Speaking of modeling articles in "The Keystone," if someone who lives near me (Mt. Laurel, NJ) would take some photos I might just get around to writing up how to convert the Eastern Car Works class P70 coaches into wreck train cars, one Cable and Tool car and one Commissary-Riding-Locker car. -------------------- Bruce when you get to the wire train we should start a thread about that, as Westefield's kits are somewhat lacking with the correct window/door configuration. I have some ideas of how to mod/bash those also. -------------------- BTW after several years of procrastination I finally gave Al Westerfield, during this year's annual meeting, the drawings of the flanger blade and lifting mechanisms that he needed to make a class XL flanger. The print copies came from the PRRT&HS Lewistown archives, and were fished out of the equipment drawing files by Bob Johnson. They are part of the drawings that can be ordered from microfilm. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 16:13:49 -0400 From: bearcreekwest@netscape.net Subject: [PRR] RE: P2K / P1K BEMF fix Larry Reynolds writes Jeff and Jim and all: > I do agree with Jim's repairman, the P2K and P1K play between the worm > and gear is excessive. A reduction in diametral pitch > may help, but this is easier said then done. I have noticed that many > locomotive manufacturers will use a single lead worm and > mesh it with a spur gear, which in the gear world is an absolute no-no. > In the model train word, however, this seems to work ok. > Reason, worm gear drives, particularly single lead, act as back stops > when the turning effort is from the low end of the gear train. > If we had too little gear backlash, we'd probably experience a lot of > bucking on the down grade as the train will try to push the loco > causing the gear box to "brake" the engine's speed. Too much backlash > seems to cause problems as well. I must agree with > my good friend Jeff, that it's an easy fix to use a BEMF decoder. > Especially since there are additional benefits such as > better, no, MUCH better low end speed control, et cetera. By the way, in > the mechanical power transmission industry, many > things that are mechanical problems are fixed with electrical solutions. I have a set of four of the P2K FA1/FB1s and have been following the discussion on the BEMF decoders. The decoders I currently have installed are definately allowing the engines to dance down the track. I assume that if one puts in Soundtraxx decoders that the bucking will still be a problem unless the mechanical approach is taken (Athearn gears and axles). __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 17:49:20 EDT Subject: [PRR] Tenders and water hatches again. Picked up a 130F82 tender for my I1. My information says the last of these was converted to 130P75s by 1949. So still OK for my 1950+/- modeling era. However, I suspect most early on had the doghouse added. Most of the photos I have seen indicate this doghouse was placed far to the rear of the tender. This raises the question of the transverse water hatch in that location. I have a quasi 130P75 with antennas and the two hatches parallel in the longitudinal direction to accomodate the antenna. Can anyone steer me to print or web photos or layouts of the tops of these 130F82s with doghouses? Were any of the doghouses forward enough to clear the as-delivered hatch? Of course, I could always punt and leave the doghouse off, but again, I suspect most had this added very early. And then my next question will be a source for the doghouse, though the one in the so-so pictures I have looks to lend itself to scratch building. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Larry Reynolds" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: P2K / P1K BEMF fix Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 18:03:46 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR- Talk" Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:13 PM Subject: [PRR] RE: P2K / P1K BEMF fix > > I have a set of four of the P2K FA1/FB1s and have been following the > discussion on the BEMF decoders. The decoders I currently have installed > are definately allowing the engines to dance down the track. I assume > that if one puts in Soundtraxx decoders that the bucking will still > be a problem unless the mechanical approach is taken (Athearn gears > and axles). Here's the approach that I'd take. Gut one of the units, you'll never need all four powered as one lashup anyway, and install a Soundtrax DSX decoder in what will now be the dummy. That way all other units can have a BEMF decoder without worrying about the space problem. Larry > Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ > > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 18:29:34 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Pennsy S Models X-29 update Hi All, It has been a while since I have posted an update on the Pennsy S Models X-29 project. www.pennsysmodels.com I have seen photos of a MUCH improved pilot model this week. Our builder is bringing it with him when he returns to New Jersey in 2 weeks. We will get new photos on the website a lot faster now that I have a digital camera. We still have a few cars left if you are interested. Once we start to build a version, we will lock in a production number. The Railway Express version is first. We are making arrangements to show the new car at the NASG Convention in Cleveland. http://www.cvsga.org Thank You, Bill Lane Pennsy S Models ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 20:35:12 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/26/02 --part1_141.10910ee4.2a4bb7c0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/26/02 10:01:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Yes, solder curves and switch ladders together. Elsewhere, presolder 2 > pieces of flextrack together with wire connections at both rail joiners. > Then lay your straight runs. At the ends of a 6 to 8 foot run, leave a > small > gap and don't solder your joiners. This will distribute wintertime/dry air > gapping > I'm from York, PA and use Atlas flex track 100% on my HO layout. We have similar conditions described for Louisville. My train room is also the home of the boiler so winter is warm and dry. During the summer, I have a small AC to take out excess humidity and, a de-humidifier if it get's real bad (which it rarely does). Follow Rick's advice and you shouldn't have any problems. One additional recommendation I have is at the end of a 6-9 foot run where you don't solder the joiner be sure to jump around the joiner. Better yet, just add feeders every 3-5 feet, especially if you're using DCC. On the few occasions I've had a problem it was almost always in hidden area's where I did not ballast and occured at the beginning of the two seasonal changes i.e. winter when the heat comes on and early summer when the humidity starts to build. BOB MARTIN, President & General Manager Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) A Penn Family Line 45 W. Locust Lane, York, PA 17402 cprrboss@aol.com 717-848-3640 --part1_141.10910ee4.2a4bb7c0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/26/02 10:01:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Yes, solder curves and switch ladders together.  Elsewhere, presolder 2
pieces of flextrack together with wire connections at both rail joiners.  
Then lay your straight runs.  At the ends of a 6 to 8 foot run, leave a small
gap and don't solder your joiners.  This will distribute wintertime/dry air
gapping


I'm from York, PA and use Atlas flex track 100% on my HO layout.   We have similar conditions described for Louisville.  My train room is also the home of the boiler so winter is warm and dry.  During the summer, I have a small AC to take out excess humidity and, a de-humidifier if it get's real bad (which it rarely does).  Follow Rick's advice and you shouldn't have any problems.  One additional recommendation I have is at the end of a 6-9 foot run where you don't solder the joiner be sure to jump around the joiner.  Better yet, just add feeders every 3-5 feet, especially if you're using DCC.  On the few occasions I've had a problem it was almost always in hidden area's where I did not ballast and occured at the beginning of the two seasonal changes i.e. winter when the heat comes on and early summer when the humidity starts to build.  

BOB MARTIN, President & General Manager
Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale)
A Penn Family Line
45 W. Locust Lane, York, PA  17402
cprrboss@aol.com     717-848-3640
--part1_141.10910ee4.2a4bb7c0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 21:48:41 -0400 (Eastern Standard Time) From: "sjlash" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: P2K / P1K BEMF fix --------------Boundary-00=_51DCQL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, The only locos I addressed to my repairman were the Erie bilts and CLiners. The List came up with some of the "E" units from P2k. I'm no= t sure if any other units in either the Plk or P2k have the same problem. = Jim=0D -------Original Message-------=0D =0D From: bearcreekwest@netscape.net=0D Date: Wednesday, June 26, 2002 4:17:52 PM=0D To: PRR- Talk=0D Subject: [PRR] RE: P2K / P1K BEMF fix=0D =0D Larry Reynolds writes=0D Jeff and Jim and all:=0D =0D > I do agree with Jim's repairman, the P2K and P1K play between the worm = > and gear is excessive. A reduction in diametral pitch=0D > may help, but this is easier said then done. I have noticed that many > locomotive manufacturers will use a single lead worm and=0D > mesh it with a spur gear, which in the gear world is an absolute no-no.= > In the model train word, however, this seems to work ok. =0D > Reason, worm gear drives, particularly single lead, act as back stops > when the turning effort is from the low end of the gear train. =0D > If we had too little gear backlash, we'd probably experience a lot of > bucking on the down grade as the train will try to push the loco=0D > causing the gear box to "brake" the engine's speed. Too much backlash > seems to cause problems as well. I must agree with=0D > my good friend Jeff, that it's an easy fix to use a BEMF decoder. > Especially since there are additional benefits such as=0D > better, no, MUCH better low end speed control, et cetera. By the way, i= n > the mechanical power transmission industry, many=0D > things that are mechanical problems are fixed with electrical solutions= =2E=0D =0D I have a set of four of the P2K FA1/FB1s and have been following the =0D discussion on the BEMF decoders. The decoders I currently have installed=0D are definately allowing the engines to dance down the track. I assume=0D that if one puts in Soundtraxx decoders that the bucking will still=0D be a problem unless the mechanical approach is taken (Athearn gears=0D and axles).=0D =0D =0D __________________________________________________________________=0D Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/=0D =0D Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail netscape.com/=0D =0D =0D -----------------------------------------------------------------------=0D For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.=0D =0D =2E --------------Boundary-00=_51DCQL80000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =0D =0A
Hi,  The only locos I addressed to my repairman were the = Erie=20 bilts and CLiners.  The List   came up with some of = the "E"=20 units from P2k.  I'm not sure if any other units in either the= Plk or=20 P2k have the same problem.  Jim
-------Original Message-------<= /I>
 
From: bearcreekwest@netscape.n= et
Date: Wednes= day, June=20 26, 2002 4:17:52 PM
To: PRR- Talk
Subject: [PR= R] RE: P2K=20 / P1K BEMF fix
 
Larry Reynolds writes
Jeff and Jim and=20 all:

> I do agree with Jim's repairman, the P2K and P1K p= lay=20 between the worm > and gear is excessive. A reduction in diametr= al=20 pitch
> may help, but this is easier said then done. I have n= oticed=20 that many > locomotive manufacturers will use a single lead worm= =20 and
> mesh it with a spur gear, which in the gear world is an= =20 absolute no-no. > In the model train word, however, this seems t= o work=20 ok.
> Reason, worm gear drives, particularly single lead, ac= t as=20 back stops > when the turning effort is from the low end of the = gear=20 train.
> If we had too little gear backlash, we'd probably=20 experience a lot of > bucking on the down grade as the train wil= l try=20 to push the loco
> causing the gear box to "brake" the engine= 's=20 speed. Too much backlash > seems to cause problems as well. I mu= st=20 agree with
> my good friend Jeff, that it's an easy fix to us= e a=20 BEMF decoder. > Especially since there are additional benefits s= uch=20 as
> better, no, MUCH better low end speed control, et cetera= =2E By=20 the way, in > the mechanical power transmission industry, many>=20 things that are mechanical problems are fixed with electrical=20 solutions.

I have a set of four of the P2K FA1/FB1s and have= been=20 following the
discussion on the BEMF decoders. The decoders I=20 currently have installed
are definately allowing the engines to = dance=20 down the track. I assume
that if one puts in Soundtraxx decoders= that=20 the bucking will still
be a problem unless the mechanical approa= ch is=20 taken (Athearn gears
and=20 axles).


________________________________________________= __________________
Your=20 favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Exper= ience=20 the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/<= /A>

Get=20 your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/<= /A>


----------------------------------------------------------= -------------
For=20 assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

.<= /TD>
=09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09 =09
--------------Boundary-00=_51DCQL80000000000000-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tenders and water hatches again. Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 21:47:53 -0500 Hi Bob--You wrote > > Picked up a 130F82 tender for my I1. My information says the last of these > was converted to 130P75s by 1949. > Not sure of your info source, but there were several I1's with 130F82 tenders after 1949. A source for several photos is "Pennsylvania Railroad's Elmira Branch". In any event I agree you are OK for 1950. > > However, I suspect most early on had the doghouse added. Most of the photos I > have seen indicate this doghouse was placed far to the rear of the tender. > This raises the question of the transverse water hatch in that location. I > have a quasi 130P75 with antennas and the two hatches parallel in the > longitudinal direction to accomodate the antenna. Can anyone steer me to > print or web photos or layouts of the tops of these 130F82s with doghouses? > Were any of the doghouses forward enough to clear the as-delivered hatch? > To answer you last question first, I don't think so. When the doghouse was applied to a 130F--, 110F--, 210F--, or 250F-- tender, for clearance reasons it could not protrude above the tender deck as much as on a 90F82 or the 90F75 used with the L1. If you look for it this height difference is quite noticeable. Thus some of the "living space" was below the tank deck on your 130F82. Access was provided by a ladder on the rear of the tender, of course, but thru a cutout on the rear tender wall into a sort of well to reach the doghouse door. I think with that arrangement you would be quite safe in saying that adding a doghouse to these tenders required moving the water hatch. One photo that shows this cutout is of 4524 in the Elmira Branch book on pg. 22. > > And then my next question will be a source for the doghouse, though the one > in the so-so pictures I have looks to lend itself to scratch building. > Trainstuff LLC includes a resin doghouse with their 90F82. A recent comment by Jerry Britton indicated Bowser is working on one. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 00:44:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] Tenders and water hatches again. Steve, Bob, list, According to Keyser's tender articles (Spring 1988 Keystone), the last 130F82a were converted to 130P75 by 1949. According to Keyser, starting in 1954, a few (possibly only four) 130P75 were converted back to 130F82a. The lone 130F82 was HC1s 3700's tender, which, unsurprisingly, found it's way to a class I1s/I1sa engine after the HC1s was scrapped in 1929. Doug As always, searching for an accurate and affordable 110P75a (grin!) --- Steve Hoxie wrote, in part: > > Picked up a 130F82 tender for my I1. My > information says the last of > these > > was converted to 130P75s by 1949. > > > Not sure of your info source, but there were several > I1's with 130F82 > tenders after 1949. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 08:53:38 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Track Cleaning Cars From: Jerry Britton I'm looking for a specific company that makes track cleaning cars. I know they do N scale, perhaps HO as well. Anyway, some of their cars used liquid, had stones, and brushes, all on one car, for around $100 list. I think one of their cars was called the "Hurricane" or something. Are the above clues enough for anyone to ID the company or point me to their web site? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 07:55:04 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tenders and water hatches again. Bob sez: >Picked up a 130F82 tender for my I1. My information says the last of these >was converted to 130P75s by 1949. At least four were converted back to 130F82a and were seen through the '50s and these show up in the Elmira Branch book Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 09:03:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Tenders and water hatches again. In a message dated 6/27/02 2:52:56 AM Central Daylight Time, dougkisala@yahoo.com writes: << According to Keyser, starting in 1954, a few (possibly only four) 130P75 were converted back to 130F82a. The lone 130F82 was HC1s 3700's tender, which, unsurprisingly, found it's way to a class I1s/I1sa engine after the HC1s was scrapped in 1929. >> This great article has a few confusing areas. BTW, I thought the "A" suffix was a Keyser invention and convenience, but in reading the fine print, I surmise it was an official one. The tender I have is a first version 130F82A by his charts, the last of which was converted by 1949, by the article. What is confusing is the reference to the second group of 130F82A and the quantity. It is not clear if the "-4" refers to quantity or the month of April for "extinction". It refers to a creation in 1953 and "extinction" in 1958. However, the 130F82A in this group is the modified second version with a longer coal bunker and different rivet patterns. In other words, it is a reconverted 130P75, which probably means that if it is one which had the inductive trainphone antenna, it had the parallel hatches in the longitudinal direction. Doghouse type, if any, is another question. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 09:19:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Tenders and water hatches again. In a message dated 6/27/02 8:05:52 AM Central Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << At least four were converted back to 130F82a and were seen through the '50s and these show up in the Elmira Branch book >> Now all I have to do is come up with $145-175 for this soft cover book :-). In lieu of that, could someone who has it advise if: 1. The rivet pattern is the original 8 vertical strips on tender side. Or, as I previously surmised, are they conversions from the long-coal bunker 130P75? 2. The locos have a doghouse and where longitudinally it is located. 3. The locos have an antenna 4. There is a view of the tender hatch arrangement. Bob (Thinking about all the times I passed up the book on the bargain sale tables in the Midwest) Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 09:23:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Tunnel Hill in N Scale From: Jerry Britton Last evening while working on my N scale "Eastern Region" the crew became restless. Now, I can understand the doldrums setting in when there are literally hundreds of pieces of flex to lay in just the staging yards. But Jeff and Rich got a bit to antsy and bolted ahead to put in Tunnel Hill. Take a look... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/tunnel_hill.JPG Seriously, good progress is being made on the layout. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] (PRR) Covered Hoppers Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:02:38 -0400 Group, After reading the latest Keystone, I was wondering who makes a suitable HO scale covered hopper for the PRR??? Thanks Sam Vastano McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. PH 724-368-8040 X243 Fax 724-368-9677 _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:19:53 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) Covered Hoppers Sam asks: >After reading the latest Keystone, I was wondering who makes a suitable HO >scale covered hopper for the PRR??? Sam, F&C (Funaro & Carmelengo) just recently released a revamped (and much improved I'm told) kit for the H30A. In speaking with Steve Funaro a few weeks ago, he indicated that they will also be releasing an H30 shortly (2-3 months). You should note that F&C kits list at around $25-$30, but that they often have "buy one, get one free" sales...so don't be too tempted by that ebay price of $19.95 . No web site that I know of...contact info is: Rd 3 Box 2800, Honesdale, Pa 18431 Phone: 570-224-4989 Westerfield (http://users.multipro.com/westerfield/) sells a kit (#7463) for the GLE hoppers converted from GLB hoppers. List is $30. This kit is a bit more expensive than other Westerfields since the body is a SOLID casting that you apply parts to. More modern hoppers? Well, for me the world stops in 1944, so... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:40:39 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) Covered Hoppers Funero & Camerlengo has just re-released their H30. They also had an H32 in their catalog, although I suspect that it too is being redone and is now unavailable. I have had great success (IMHO) converting the old MDC covered hopper into an H33. It involved adding a center rib, adding a new roof over the old one, adding new square hatches and other roof detail, and adding the fascia on the sides and ends. Its not as difficult as this list makes it sound. It was a lot easier than building the F&C kit. Unfortunately, the H33 was a rather small (in PRR stds) class. Anything later than the H33 is off my modeling radar screen. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Sam Vastano wrote: > Group, > > After reading the latest Keystone, I was wondering who makes a suitable HO > scale covered hopper for the PRR??? > > Thanks > > Sam Vastano > McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. > PH 724-368-8040 X243 > Fax 724-368-9677 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liner/Lenz BEMF decoders Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 12:01:28 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C21DD2.5E741A00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! Chalk me up as another one to whole heartedly agree with you - "Why = can't LL make a loco that runs without needing all these tweaks????" with the possible exception of - "For the price, I don't think it's too = much to expect" I firmly believe that any manufacturer should make it a point to make = sure that whatever product he/she produces or imports should be the = "best that it can be". There's no excuse for low standards. As for = price, P1K's are now selling for $40 and less. Model Expo is selling = the F-3's for $30 and I've seen the Bachmann Gas-Electric's for $20 from = some other mass selling web site. So, for $20 to $40 I can accept a = lower quality than having to pay upwards of $80 for better quality - = such as Athearn Genesis, InterMountain or Stewarts. But when P2K sells = for $80 or so with really good detail, and then runs like the listers = have described, there's no excuse. And it's bad business. So, for the record. I own one P1K C-Liner; period. I will not purchase = any more LL products. I own NO Bachmann. I own and like Athearn, both = the old-timers and the Genesis. IMHO, that's all I need (for now). = I'll probably change my mind later. HA! I can't afford the Stewarts, = InterMountain or Kato's. Besides, how many diesels can one own? HA! We must remember that even with the best of manufacturers/importers, = there's always additional work. Look at Athearn Genesis's F-7. It took = Greg Martin to make it an acceptable Pennsy unit. Athearn didn't even = attempt to add proper details such as antennae. Then, we get MRC bring = out their F-7 with antennae; but who wants it unless for the toy trade? = Again, IMHO. The only way for manufacturers to get the message is for us modelers to = "not purchase" unacceptable merchandise. Just because it's the "only = thing available", doesn't mean we must buy it. One last thought on price. Back in 1958 or 1959 (who can remember that = far back?), when I purchased my Penn Line Pennsy H-9, it was $33 retail. = Today, the Bowser version is $150+ (don't have exact figure). But, it = still requires a lot of work (enjoyable for sure) to get it right. But = look at what you get. Now, that C-Liner was $40, and it's "ready to = run". So, the value for the dollar is a lot better today. IMHO. Thanks for letting me vent. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist! PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! ------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C21DD2.5E741A00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi!
 
Chalk me up as another one to = whole=20 heartedly agree with you -=20 "Why can't LL make a loco that runs without needing all = these=20 tweaks????"
with the possible = exception of -=20 "For the price, I don't = think it's=20 too much to expect"
 
I firmly believe that any = manufacturer=20 should make it a point to make sure that whatever product he/she = produces or=20 imports should be the "best that it can be".  There's no excuse for = low=20 standards.  As for price, P1K's are now selling for $40 and = less. =20 Model Expo is selling the F-3's for $30 and I've seen the Bachmann=20 Gas-Electric's for $20 from some other mass selling web site.  So, = for $20=20 to $40 I can accept a lower quality than having to pay upwards of $80 = for better=20 quality - such as Athearn Genesis, InterMountain or Stewarts.  But = when P2K=20 sells for $80 or so with really good detail, and then runs like the = listers have=20 described, there's no excuse.  And it's bad business.
 
So, for the record.  I own = one P1K=20 C-Liner; period.  I will not purchase any more LL products.  I = own NO=20 Bachmann.  I own and like Athearn, both the old-timers and the=20 Genesis.  IMHO, that's all I need (for now).  I'll probably = change my=20 mind later.  HA!  I can't afford the Stewarts, InterMountain = or=20 Kato's.  Besides, how many diesels can one own?  = HA!
 
We must remember that even with = the best of=20 manufacturers/importers, there's always additional work.  Look at = Athearn=20 Genesis's F-7.  It took Greg Martin to make it an acceptable Pennsy = unit.  Athearn didn't even attempt to add proper details such as=20 antennae.  Then, we get MRC bring out their F-7 with antennae; but = who=20 wants it unless for the toy trade?  Again, IMHO.
 
The only way for manufacturers = to get the=20 message is for us modelers to "not purchase" unacceptable = merchandise. =20 Just because it's the "only thing available", doesn't mean we must buy=20 it.
 
One last thought on price.  = Back in=20 1958 or 1959 (who can remember that far back?), when I purchased my Penn = Line=20 Pennsy H-9, it was $33 retail.  Today, the Bowser version is=20 $150+ (don't have exact figure).  But, it still requires a lot = of work=20 (enjoyable for sure) to get it right.  But look at what you = get.  Now,=20 that C-Liner was $40, and it's "ready to run".  So, the value for = the=20 dollar is a lot better today.  IMHO.
 
Thanks for letting me = vent.
 
Morgan=20 Bilbo
Ferroequinologist!
PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy = Nut!
 
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0062_01C21DD2.5E741A00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] PRR car classes... Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:22:21 -0400 Guys, As part of adding equipment diagrams to my site I've been compiling a list of PRR freight and passenger base car classes. Here's what I've come up with so far. I've tried to guess the origin of the name, and capitalized the class letters in the description name that appear to relate to the class letter(s). Am I missing any class types? Are my descriptions accurate? Does anyone have an idea why C was used originally for parlors and Y was used for test weight cars? They're the only ones where I can't make a guess how the letters relate to the names ... (If you can live with S=Stick for poling cars and Z=biZness for business cars...) Rob http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams Pennsy car classes A to Z A tAnk car* B Baggage BD Baggage Dormitory BM Baggage Mail C parlor* D Dining E Express* F Flatcar FG Flatcar Gun* FG Flatcar converted from Gondola FD Flatcar Depressed FW Flatcar Well FX Flatcar converted from boXcar G Gondola GM Gasoline, Mechanical drive GEW Gasoline Electric, Westinghouse GEG Gasoline Electric, General electric H Hopper H Hand car* HP Headend Power K stocK car L charcoaL car* M Mail MB Motor Baggage MBM Motor Baggage Mail MP Motor Passenger MPB Motor Passenger Baggage MS Mail Storage N cabiN O cOmbined passenger and baggage* OEW Oil Electric, Westinghouse OEG Oil Electric, General electric P Passenger PB Passenger Baggage PBM Passenger Baggage Mail PC Passenger Cafe PDB Passenger Dormitory Baggage PL Passenger Lounge PLB Passenger Lounge Baggage PLC Passenger Lounge Cafe POC Passenger Observation Cafe POS Passenger Observation Sleeper PP Passenger Parlor PS Passenger Sleeper R Refrigerator car S polling (Stick?) car T Tool car* T Trailer TM Tank car TP Tank car (Pressurized) U dUmp car W Wreck crane X boXcar Y test weight Z business, (biZness?) Containers - so what do these mean? DD DB Drop Bottom? SD SDR OB SD HB Hopper bottom? TD Truck body, Detachable Notes: The * after the name denotes a class type that was only used in early classification systems. Some of this comes from fuzzy memories of a presentation that Ian Fisher (I think) did a a PRRTHS meeting a few years ago. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] (PRR) Covered Hoppers Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 13:27:53 -0400 Sam & the list, Atlas did the H34 subclasses and H45's in HO. Also Eastern Car works has a kitbash kit for a dryflo hopper (forget the class). Has anyone else on list built one of these? How did it turn out? Walthers and Con-cor also did two bay airslide hoppers. I also forget the class on these... You can check out my fairly outdated listing of model hopper kits at: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/Modelpage.html?type=hoppers for some more info on some of these... If anyone on the list has any updates for this page, I'd appreciate it! Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andrew S. > Miller > Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 12:41 PM > To: Sam Vastano > Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) Covered Hoppers > > > Funero & Camerlengo has just re-released their H30. They also > had an H32 in > their catalog, although I suspect that it too is being redone and is now > unavailable. > > I have had great success (IMHO) converting the old MDC covered > hopper into an > H33. It involved adding a center rib, adding a new roof over the old one, > adding new square hatches and other roof detail, and adding the > fascia on the > sides and ends. Its not as difficult as this list makes it > sound. It was a lot > easier than building the F&C kit. Unfortunately, the H33 was a > rather small > (in PRR stds) class. > > Anything later than the H33 is off my modeling radar screen. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > Sam Vastano wrote: > > > Group, > > > > After reading the latest Keystone, I was wondering who makes a > suitable HO > > scale covered hopper for the PRR??? > > > > Thanks > > > > Sam Vastano > > McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. > > PH 724-368-8040 X243 > > Fax 724-368-9677 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 14:09:04 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] MOW FXL was Re: Crawler cranes Al, Thanks for the detailed answers! >So it is quite possible they were all FXL and Martin did make an error >in assuming the basic car was a class FM. I had another MW friend of mind >recently make the same mistake until I pointed out the XL rather than FM >spotting features of the car, it's easy to do. Perhaps somebody who knows >Martin can put him in touch with me and I could check out the photo from >whence he made the model and see for sure what it is. From what I have heard >about his seal for accuracy, he should be interested. I looked at my inbuilt >Sunshine FM kit and the house he has in it would certainly work on the >proposed Westerfield XL conversion bash. Making it either a Westershine or >Sunfield kit, possibly the subject for a short one page modeling article for >"The Keystone." It looks as if I'm going to do the "Westershine" bash of an FXL. One MINOR problem I noted in looking at the parts last night is that the Westerfield XL side sills will not work as is. They represent only the visible portion and not the entire sill...so time to scratchbuild that part. On top of that, the Westerfield floor will need to be slightly narrowed as it sits on top of the XL sill now. I'll have to take pictures as I go along! The plan I have is as follows: 1) Scratchbuild full height XL side sills using the XL kit as examples (Unless anyone has a general arrangement drawing of the FXL they wish to share!) 2) Narrow the Westerfield XL floor (underbody) and use the Westerfield underbody components 3) use Westerfield XL end sills 4) use real wood planking for the deck of the flat 5) use the Sunshine "house" 6) salvage stake pockets from an FM kit (Sunshine or F&C) 7) scratchbuild or modify Sunshine FM side boards 8) paint body grey (Poly Scale D&H grey) and underbody black (PolyScale Steam loco black) and decal with Sunshine MOW FM and Westerfield MOW XL sets. Comments, suggestions, photos etc are most welcome ! I will definitely have this car at the PRRT&HS meeting in Essington (finished or not!!) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 14:39:21 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Wire Trains (was Crawler cranes) Al says: >Bruce when you get to the wire train we should start a thread about that, as >Westefield's kits are somewhat lacking with the correct window/door >configuration. I have some ideas of how to mod/bash those also. Al, et. al., Consider that thread started ! A few years ago, Al sent me a photocopy of the right side (from the B end) of class XL #492338, a wire train riding car. The car appears briefly in the video "Pennsy Steam and Electric Years, vol 1" on the Thorndale wire train. The car has an unusual window arrangement that does not match the other XL riding cars, a pantograph, a cupola (which although it superficially looks like an N5 cupola is too small to be one) and a rear platform, with caboose (N5 style) steps. Do the windows on the XL camp cars match any of the available castings? I was thinking of buying a commisary car, cutting the windows out of the sides and scratchbuilding new sides, a cupola and a new roof . The MP54 pantograph coming from IHB should work perfectly for this car! Of course, I could take the easy road..."Pennsy Steam and Electric Years, vol 1" also shows a wire train with an XL Tool car equipped with a pantograph. I put the decals on a GRA last night for the cable supply car...is it my imagination or does the set supplied with the Westerfield MOW GRA not do the grey MOW scheme very well? It had PENNSYLVANIA underlined and no lines on the numbers...I pilfered some parts of a MOW XL set to letter the car for #498433, a GRA built 8-12 and which made it into AMTRAK in wire train service (and of which Al once sent me a photocopy!) I am getting ready to scratchbuild the tower cars on two Sunshine FM flats (one of which will donate the "house" for my FXL project )...this just looks to be a basic scratchbuild! Lots of dimensional lumber, a few metal plates, and a few nbw castings. A general arrangement drawing of the tower would be useful too... Oh yeah, in 1944, the Thorndale wire train was powered by an E3sd...and I picked up one of those at the PRRT&HS meeting this year. I'm good to go! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:16:57 EDT Subject: [PRR] South Jersey Question--Thank You Folks, Thanks for the replies regarding my Glassboro, NJ question. I'm thankful to learn that 'ghost' line I glimpsed wasn't the Millville line. It didn't seem likely that line would be torn up, but in today's railroad climate, who knows? Thanks again, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:16:38 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] MORE free PRR Builder's photos Hi All. Al Buchan asked me to scan the 3 NX23 Cabin interior Builders photos I had for a restoration project, so here they are. You could rename them to the E numbers in the corner. I think that makes about 8 free builders photo downloads from me in about 2 weeks. Does anyone else want to participate too? I don't have ALL of them (yet!) You could be nice and too a few my way! http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/NX23_1_300DPI.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/NX23_2_300DPI.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/NX23_3_300DPI.jpg As before, download and save because I am taking them down in about 1 week. Enjoy! Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:04:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR car classes... --part1_41.1f4f5196.2a4d100a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The 'C' used to designate "parlor cars" was derived from the phrase Club car. Chris Baker --part1_41.1f4f5196.2a4d100a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The 'C' used to designate "parlor cars" was derived from the phrase Club car.

Chris Baker
 --part1_41.1f4f5196.2a4d100a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tenders and water hatches again. Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:21:48 -0500 Bob--In response to your request for more info on the 130F82a tenders- I1sa 4524 seems to be the most photogenic, appearing in the Keystone tender article in the Spring 1988 issue on page 32 (only "524" is visible), in addition to the Elmira Branch book. That should answer your questions except for the tender hatch arrangement. An excellent photo of the rear of a 130F82a with I1s 4669 appears in Pennsy Steam Years Vol 3 on pg. 49. The cutout in the rear tender wall at the top of the ladder is clearly shown, and the perspective gives an idea of how close the doghouse is to the rear of the tender. It is an excellent photo to aid in locating all the details on the tender rear. This tender, like the one on 4524, has nine vertical rivet rows. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: gregv@NetReach.Net Subject: Re: [PRR] Township Sues Red Caboose Motel Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:47:51 US/Eastern I expected to stay there for Pennsy Days. I cancelled well in advanced to the cancellation cutoff date. The Red Caboose Motel never reversed charges on my credit card. I am now in a dispute for 109.89? Who knows. They blamed the non-response to their nitrate H2O problems, only they were shut down two weeks after my initial request for my money return. Now where do I go for my money? Greg Vlassopoulos > Headline from today... (http://www.msnbc.com/local/wgal/A1238905.asp) > > Township Sues Red Caboose Motel > > LANCASTER, Pa., 10:26 a.m. EDT June 26, 2002 - There is more trouble for > Lancaster County's Red Caboose Motel located near Strasburg. > > Paradise Township is suing the motel, saying it failed to maintain its > sewage treatment system after a sewer leak on the lawn. > > The state Department of Environmental Protection shut down the motel 13 days > ago for not fixing unhealthy nitrate levels in its drinking water. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:50:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Tenders and water hatches again. In a message dated 6/27/02 8:35:28 PM Central Daylight Time, steveh@dotstar.net writes: << An excellent photo of the rear of a 130F82a with I1s 4669 appears in Pennsy Steam Years Vol 3 on pg. 49. The cutout in the rear tender wall at the top of the ladder is clearly shown, and the perspective gives an idea of how close the doghouse is to the rear of the tender. It is an excellent photo to aid in locating all the details on the tender rear. This tender, like the one on 4524, has nine vertical rivet rows. >> Thanks, Steve, for the tip. You are correct---it answers a lot of questions. At this point, I am going to leave my 130F82A in its pristine condition and assume it is one which never got a doghouse and was one of the last to be converted to 130P75 in 1949. At least until I find evidence to the contrary. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 21:36:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) Covered Hoppers Sam, list, My Funaro and Camerlengo H30a (red car, white decals) just arrived. The resin is now like a Sunshine or Westerfield kit, ie very nice. I have barely started assembly by cleaning up flash from the castings, so I don't have much more to say. I'm rather curious myself as to whether or not the Bowser 70 ton covered hopper could be made into a decent layout quality PRR model. Any thoughts? Doug --- Sam Vastano wrote, in part: > Group, > > After reading the latest Keystone, I was wondering > who makes a suitable HO > scale covered hopper for the PRR??? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 20:16:38 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] MORE free PRR Builder's photos Hi All. Al Buchan asked me to scan the 3 NX23 Cabin interior Builders photos I had for a restoration project, so here they are. You could rename them to the E numbers in the corner. I think that makes about 8 free builders photo downloads from me in about 2 weeks. Does anyone else want to participate too? I don't have ALL of them (yet!) You could be nice and too a few my way! http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/NX23_1_300DPI.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/NX23_2_300DPI.jpg http://mywebpages.comcast.net/billlane/NX23_3_300DPI.jpg As before, download and save because I am taking them down in about 1 week. Enjoy! Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 02:02:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) Covered Hoppers dougkisala@yahoo.com writes: << I'm rather curious myself as to whether or not the Bowser 70 ton covered hopper could be made into a decent layout quality PRR model. Any thoughts? Doug >> Doug, It would depend on how much work you are willing to do but I have started one for an article. It is only good for the H-33. The toughest part is that the side post's are supposed to be "Z-Bar" rather than REFC (round edged flanged channels). Then there is the issue of the roof hatch spacing, but it will look great when complete, Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 09:49:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] K4 Photo, List, This isn't an ebay sales pitch but go look at this item if you wish. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2116640349. I was alerted of this by someone who had a question on it's future (wondered if it was scrapped afterwards) of this K4. Looks pretty bad. But, according to records this particular K4 wasn't cut up til 1947. 13 more years of faithful service! Look at that damage. New boiler, drivers? and cylindesr to say the least was required for repair. Just goes to show you how the Pennsy felt about their #1 mainline Passenger Class Loco. All but the most severe of wrecks could take out a K4 for good....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) Covered Hoppers Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 09:47:46 -0400 Thanks for all who responded. Sam >From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com >To: dougkisala@yahoo.com >CC: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) Covered Hoppers >Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 02:02:54 EDT > >dougkisala@yahoo.com writes: > ><< I'm rather curious myself as to whether or not the Bowser 70 ton covered >hopper could be made into a decent layout quality PRR model. Any thoughts? >Doug >> > >Doug, > >It would depend on how much work you are willing to do but I have started >one >for an article. It is only good for the H-33. The toughest part is that the >side post's are supposed to be "Z-Bar" rather than REFC (round edged >flanged >channels). Then there is the issue of the roof hatch spacing, but it will >look great when complete, > >Greg Martin > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Sam Vastano McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. PH 724-368-8040 X243 Fax 724-368-9677 _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:47:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) Covered Hoppers --part1_91.1f2b0b93.2a4ddf2e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What about the ConCor airslide hopper? I have two of them with Wabash decals but have not found any photos of them. The Wabash decals show four different lettering schemes and assume they are valid as Wabash only does prototypical work. Any comments on a PRR covered hopper from this model and decal set? Many thanks, Evan Leisey --part1_91.1f2b0b93.2a4ddf2e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What about the ConCor airslide hopper?  I have two of them with Wabash decals but have not found any photos of them.  The Wabash decals show four different lettering schemes and assume they are valid as Wabash only does prototypical work.   Any comments on a PRR covered hopper from this model and decal set?

Many thanks,

Evan Leisey
--part1_91.1f2b0b93.2a4ddf2e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Charles Ring Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 13:38:47 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 Photo, Gary Mittner wrote: > List, > > This isn't an ebay sales pitch but go look at this item if you wish. > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2116640349. I was > alerted of this by someone who had a question on it's future (wondered > if it was scrapped afterwards) of this K4. Looks pretty bad. But, > according to records this particular K4 wasn't cut up til 1947. 13 more > years of faithful service! Look at that damage. New boiler, drivers? and > cylindesr to say the least was required for repair. Just goes to show > you how the Pennsy felt about their #1 mainline Passenger Class Loco. > All but the most severe of wrecks could take out a K4 for good....Gary If that engine was returned to service I have to wonder about the wisdom of doing so. Not only the cost but the certainty of concealed damage that could cause trouble later. It reminds me of the story of the engine that Casey Jones died in - it was repaired and was involved in several later derailment deaths including when it was being hauled away for scrapping in the 1930's. Rather than believe in hexes etc I figure it was somehow out of alignment even after repair in some way that the technology of the time could not detect. GG1 4876 wasn't damaged anywhere near that bad in the 1953 runaway wreck so I can see it made sense to return it to service. What I don't understand is how they got it out of that basement, even in pieces. To anyone: are there any pics online of the recovery operation on 4876? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Howdy" Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:22:09 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 Photo, Charles, I got this bit of info from http://spikesys.com/GG1/ The 4876 lost its brakes and pulled the Federal Express right into Washington Terminal, crashed into the concourse and fell into the basement. It was cut up into small sections so it could be removed from the basement, shipped back to Altoona for reassembly. It was returned to service and still survives today! Howdy On 28 Jun 2002, at 13:38, Charles Ring wrote: Gary Mittner wrote: > List, > > This isn't an ebay sales pitch but go look at this item if you > wish. > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2116640349. I was > alerted of this by someone who had a question on it's future > (wondered if it was scrapped afterwards) of this K4. Looks pretty > bad. But, according to records this particular K4 wasn't cut up til > 1947. 13 more years of faithful service! Look at that damage. New > boiler, drivers? and cylindesr to say the least was required for > repair. Just goes to show you how the Pennsy felt about their #1 > mainline Passenger Class Loco. All but the most severe of wrecks > could take out a K4 for good....Gary If that engine was returned to service I have to wonder about the wisdom of doing so. Not only the cost but the certainty of concealed damage that could cause trouble later. It reminds me of the story of the engine that Casey Jones died in - it was repaired and was involved in several later derailment deaths including when it was being hauled away for scrapping in the 1930's. Rather than believe in hexes etc I figure it was somehow out of alignment even after repair in some way that the technology of the time could not detect. GG1 4876 wasn't damaged anywhere near that bad in the 1953 runaway wreck so I can see it made sense to return it to service. What I don't understand is how they got it out of that basement, even in pieces. To anyone: are there any pics online of the recovery operation on 4876? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:30:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 Photo, From: Jerry Britton On 6/28/02 2:22 PM, Howdy (howdy@QNET.COM) wrote: > The 4876 lost its brakes and pulled the Federal Express right into > Washington Terminal, crashed into the concourse and fell into the > basement. It was cut up into small sections so it could be removed from > the basement, shipped back to Altoona for reassembly. It was returned > to service and still survives today! Bob Martin in Emigsville (York) is a member of the Northern Central Chapter of the Society. His father was the fireman on that fateful run. Bob had his layout open for the convention this year, and in his rec room shared many photos of the crash. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Howdy" Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 11:28:33 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 Photo, Charles, A nice article on the crash with pics can be found at... http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/prr4876-crash.html Howdy On 28 Jun 2002, at 13:38, Charles Ring wrote: Gary Mittner wrote: > List, > > This isn't an ebay sales pitch but go look at this item if you > wish. > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2116640349. I was > alerted of this by someone who had a question on it's future > (wondered if it was scrapped afterwards) of this K4. Looks pretty > bad. But, according to records this particular K4 wasn't cut up til > 1947. 13 more years of faithful service! Look at that damage. New > boiler, drivers? and cylindesr to say the least was required for > repair. Just goes to show you how the Pennsy felt about their #1 > mainline Passenger Class Loco. All but the most severe of wrecks > could take out a K4 for good....Gary If that engine was returned to service I have to wonder about the wisdom of doing so. Not only the cost but the certainty of concealed damage that could cause trouble later. It reminds me of the story of the engine that Casey Jones died in - it was repaired and was involved in several later derailment deaths including when it was being hauled away for scrapping in the 1930's. Rather than believe in hexes etc I figure it was somehow out of alignment even after repair in some way that the technology of the time could not detect. GG1 4876 wasn't damaged anywhere near that bad in the 1953 runaway wreck so I can see it made sense to return it to service. What I don't understand is how they got it out of that basement, even in pieces. To anyone: are there any pics online of the recovery operation on 4876? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Alex Charyna" Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 Photo, Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 10:38:56 -0800 Speaking of chopped up GG1s, I read somewhere (maybe Pennsy Electric Years), that there was a GG1 cut in half, and used for a snow plow. I think it was based out of Wilmington through the 80s.... Don't recall the number. Does anyone have pictures of this thing? Did it get an official name? GG1/2? thanks.. -alex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howdy" To: "Charles Ring" Cc: Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 10:22 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 Photo, > Charles, > > I got this bit of info from http://spikesys.com/GG1/ > > The 4876 lost its brakes and pulled the Federal Express right into > Washington Terminal, crashed into the concourse and fell into the > basement. It was cut up into small sections so it could be removed from > the basement, shipped back to Altoona for reassembly. It was returned > to service and still survives today! > Howdy > > On 28 Jun 2002, at 13:38, Charles Ring wrote: > > > > Gary Mittner wrote: > > > List, > > > > This isn't an ebay sales pitch but go look at this item if you > > wish. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2116640349. I was > > alerted of this by someone who had a question on it's future > > (wondered if it was scrapped afterwards) of this K4. Looks pretty > > bad. But, according to records this particular K4 wasn't cut up til > > 1947. 13 more years of faithful service! Look at that damage. New > > boiler, drivers? and cylindesr to say the least was required for > > repair. Just goes to show you how the Pennsy felt about their #1 > > mainline Passenger Class Loco. All but the most severe of wrecks > > could take out a K4 for good....Gary > > If that engine was returned to service I have to wonder about the > wisdom of doing so. Not only the cost but the certainty of > concealed > damage that could cause trouble later. It reminds me of the story of > the engine that Casey Jones died in - it was repaired and was involved > in several later derailment deaths including when it was being hauled > away for scrapping in the 1930's. Rather than believe in hexes etc I > figure it was somehow out of alignment even after repair in some way > that the technology of the time could not detect. > > GG1 4876 wasn't damaged anywhere near that bad in the 1953 runaway > wreck so I can see it made sense to return it to service. What I don't > understand is how they got it out of that basement, even in pieces. To > anyone: are there any pics online of the recovery operation on 4876? > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR]GG1 was K4 Photo, Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 14:50:52 -0400 I believe Pennsy Power 2 or 3 has a photo. It wasn't really used as a plow but to remove snow/ice from switches. Great project for a kitbash. Anyone know when it was cut in half? Was the other half scrapped? I assume it would be a called a G_ whatever the next number was for the G class. This would probably make it the last operating G class loco. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Alex Charyna [mailto:alex@arclyte.com] Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 2:39 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 Photo, Speaking of chopped up GG1s, I read somewhere (maybe Pennsy Electric Years), that there was a GG1 cut in half, and used for a snow plow. I think it was based out of Wilmington through the 80s.... Don't recall the number. Does anyone have pictures of this thing? Did it get an official name? GG1/2? thanks.. -alex ----- Original Message ----- From: "Howdy" To: "Charles Ring" Cc: Sent: Friday, June 28, 2002 10:22 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] K4 Photo, > Charles, > > I got this bit of info from http://spikesys.com/GG1/ > > The 4876 lost its brakes and pulled the Federal Express right into > Washington Terminal, crashed into the concourse and fell into the > basement. It was cut up into small sections so it could be removed from > the basement, shipped back to Altoona for reassembly. It was returned > to service and still survives today! > Howdy > > On 28 Jun 2002, at 13:38, Charles Ring wrote: > > > > Gary Mittner wrote: > > > List, > > > > This isn't an ebay sales pitch but go look at this item if you > > wish. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2116640349. I was > > alerted of this by someone who had a question on it's future > > (wondered if it was scrapped afterwards) of this K4. Looks pretty > > bad. But, according to records this particular K4 wasn't cut up til > > 1947. 13 more years of faithful service! Look at that damage. New > > boiler, drivers? and cylindesr to say the least was required for > > repair. Just goes to show you how the Pennsy felt about their #1 > > mainline Passenger Class Loco. All but the most severe of wrecks > > could take out a K4 for good....Gary > > If that engine was returned to service I have to wonder about the > wisdom of doing so. Not only the cost but the certainty of > concealed > damage that could cause trouble later. It reminds me of the story of > the engine that Casey Jones died in - it was repaired and was involved > in several later derailment deaths including when it was being hauled > away for scrapping in the 1930's. Rather than believe in hexes etc I > figure it was somehow out of alignment even after repair in some way > that the technology of the time could not detect. > > GG1 4876 wasn't damaged anywhere near that bad in the 1953 runaway > wreck so I can see it made sense to return it to service. What I don't > understand is how they got it out of that basement, even in pieces. To > anyone: are there any pics online of the recovery operation on 4876? > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: [PRR]GG1 was K4 Photo, Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 16:50:56 -0400 Listers, I was looking at the photo and noticed that the front pantograph is up. I assume that this happened during the crash. The back pantograph seems to be missing. http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/prr4876-crash.jpg Thanks Bill for the photos. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 15:57:47 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith" Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: [PRR]GG1 was K4 Photo, Chris sez: >I was looking at the photo and noticed that the front pantograph is up. I >assume that this happened during the crash. The back pantograph seems to be >missing. > >http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/prr4876-crash.jpg Well, not missing as much as flattened back toward the end of the unit. I'm sure you're right about the front pan, as it would have been torn off by the wall if it was up. I was interested to read in the P5 book from the PRRT&HS (BUY YOURS NOW!!) that the pans automatically dropped in a number of "emergency" situations. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: [PRR]GG1 was K4 Photo, Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 21:19:55 +0000 By the way, the site of the crash is nowhere near where the tracks end today. About ten years ago I had a long time employee show me the exact location and it is more than 100' in front of where the tracks now end. Norm Bell > Chris sez: > > >I was looking at the photo and noticed that the front pantograph is up. I > >assume that this happened during the crash. The back pantograph seems to be > >missing. > > > >http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/prr4876-crash.jpg > > Well, not missing as much as flattened back toward the end of the unit. > I'm sure you're right about the front pan, as it would have been torn off > by the wall if it was up. I was interested to read in the P5 book from the > PRRT&HS (BUY YOURS NOW!!) that the pans automatically dropped in a number > of "emergency" situations. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 19:51:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] GG1/Wash DC Crash List, Looking at the photos of GG1 4876 inside the terminal, it looks like the one end of the G fell through the floor with the other above the floor line of the station. The reports always say that the locomotive fell through the floor. My question is: did they have to lower the G into the basement to put in the temporary floor? Or did they build the floor around 4876? Thanks in advance. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Township Sues Red Caboose Motel Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 20:01:13 -0400 I assume when you say you are "in dispute" that you have filed an official dispute form with your credit card company. This should be an effective way to get your money back. You can also file a claim in small claims court through a local PA magistrate and sue them for the charge and court costs (about $95.00). BTW, the owner used to be John Denlinger. The info you supplied in this letter indicates that the caboose lodge had a septic malfunction that went uncorrected and then contaminated their own well. As a certified Sewage Enforcement Officer for PA, I know how reluctant a municipality is to start any action against a violator, it must be a significant violation (dangerous to the community and the party make NO effort to repair. Should give everyone something to think about, for ever staying at that motel. If they avoid repairing something that dangerous, what other maintenance has been deferred or neglected? Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Jerry Britton" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Township Sues Red Caboose Motel > I expected to stay there for Pennsy Days. I cancelled well in advanced to the > cancellation cutoff date. The Red Caboose Motel never reversed charges on my > credit card. I am now in a dispute for 109.89? Who knows. They blamed the > non-response to their nitrate H2O problems, only they were shut down two weeks > after my initial request for my money return. Now where do I go for my money? > > Greg Vlassopoulos > > > > Headline from today... (http://www.msnbc.com/local/wgal/A1238905.asp) > > > > Township Sues Red Caboose Motel > > > > LANCASTER, Pa., 10:26 a.m. EDT June 26, 2002 - There is more trouble for > > Lancaster County's Red Caboose Motel located near Strasburg. > > > > Paradise Township is suing the motel, saying it failed to maintain its > > sewage treatment system after a sewer leak on the lawn. > > > > The state Department of Environmental Protection shut down the motel 13 days > > ago for not fixing unhealthy nitrate levels in its drinking water. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 20:10:54 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Township Sues Red Caboose Motel From: Jerry Britton On 6/28/02 8:01 PM, Lewis J. Matt PhD at (lmatt@alltel.net) wrote: > The info you supplied in this letter indicates that the caboose lodge had a > septic malfunction that went uncorrected and then contaminated their own > well. As a certified Sewage Enforcement Officer for PA, I know how > reluctant a municipality is to start any action against a violator, it must > be a significant violation (dangerous to the community and the party make NO > effort to repair. Should give everyone something to think about, for ever > staying at that motel. If they avoid repairing something that dangerous, > what other maintenance has been deferred or neglected? > I think the two violations are separate issues. The contaminant quoted in the water was nitrate...presumably fertilizer runoff from the farmlands adjoining. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 20:24:32 EDT Subject: [PRR] EMD GP-30 --part1_159.101e976c.2a4e5840_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List, Did the Pennsy own any of the early production units? The notable feature is that both cab sides were of equal length, whereas the later units had eleven inches added to the firemans' side to give the fireman and head brakeman more leg room. All photos I have found show the later production units with the extended cab side. Many thanks in advance, Evan Leisey --part1_159.101e976c.2a4e5840_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List,

  Did the Pennsy own any of the early production units?  The notable feature is that both cab sides were of equal length, whereas the later units had eleven inches added to the firemans' side to give the fireman and head brakeman more leg room.

  All photos I have found show the later production units with the extended cab side.

Many thanks in advance,

Evan Leisey --part1_159.101e976c.2a4e5840_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 00:06:37 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Re: 4876 at Washington Union Station Greetings to Norm and the List: This was and is the legacy of the ill-advised 1970s attempt to turn Washington Union Station into a D.C. visitor center. The stub-end tracks were cut back, forcing passengers to hoof it to get to and from a temporary shoebox-sized station/waiting room. During the station's renovation in the 1980s, the stub tracks were re-extended southward but with the other redevelopment plans, it wasn't deemed feasible to return them to their original length. I seem to recall that if you go down into the (basement) food court and know where to look, you can see where the damaged wall was patched. At that time it was above a pizza stand. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: gregv@netreach.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Township Sues Red Caboose Motel Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 01:24:48 US/Eastern I found it odd that they asked for the full room charge in advance as a room hold. I work in the meeting/event planning industry and was never asked to pay in-full prior to receiving services. Yes, I am in the process of collecting my money via the credit card company. I am going to make one last attempt/phone call to collect before filing. It is a shame. It is a unique venue. When Conrail was selling off the N-5's, they were asking scrap value, I heard around 2,000-2,500. They would evan ship it anywhere on their system just to get rid of them. I hope they work out the problem, but everyone be aware of the circumstances. Thanks Greg Vlassopoulos > I assume when you say you are "in dispute" that you have filed an official > dispute form with your credit card company. This should be an effective way > to get your money back. You can also file a claim in small claims court > through a local PA magistrate and sue them for the charge and court costs > (about $95.00). BTW, the owner used to be John Denlinger. > > The info you supplied in this letter indicates that the caboose lodge had a > septic malfunction that went uncorrected and then contaminated their own > well. As a certified Sewage Enforcement Officer for PA, I know how > reluctant a municipality is to start any action against a violator, it must > be a significant violation (dangerous to the community and the party make NO > effort to repair. Should give everyone something to think about, for ever > staying at that motel. If they avoid repairing something that dangerous, > what other maintenance has been deferred or neglected? > > Lew > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "Jerry Britton" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" > > Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2002 5:47 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Township Sues Red Caboose Motel > > > > I expected to stay there for Pennsy Days. I cancelled well in advanced to > the > > cancellation cutoff date. The Red Caboose Motel never reversed charges on > my > > credit card. I am now in a dispute for 109.89? Who knows. They blamed > the > > non-response to their nitrate H2O problems, only they were shut down two > weeks > > after my initial request for my money return. Now where do I go for my > money? > > > > Greg Vlassopoulos > > > > > > > Headline from today... (http://www.msnbc.com/local/wgal/A1238905.asp) > > > > > > Township Sues Red Caboose Motel > > > > > > LANCASTER, Pa., 10:26 a.m. EDT June 26, 2002 - There is more trouble for > > > Lancaster County's Red Caboose Motel located near Strasburg. > > > > > > Paradise Township is suing the motel, saying it failed to maintain its > > > sewage treatment system after a sewer leak on the lawn. > > > > > > The state Department of Environmental Protection shut down the motel 13 > days > > > ago for not fixing unhealthy nitrate levels in its drinking water. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > > > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > > > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > > > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 13:04:33 +0200 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] Township Sues Red Caboose Motel Jerry Britton scribit: > I think the two violations are separate issues. The contaminant quoted in > the water was nitrate...presumably fertilizer runoff from the farmlands > adjoining. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > Well, nitrate (and nitrite being even more a problem) is a typical problem resulting from over-fertilizing in agriculture, but the source could be the sewer nevertheless. With all that nitrogen in the sewage (e.g. from ammonia), and an oxidizing ground water, nitrate would be the result. And the nitrite content is a good indicator for that, a it shows a partial oxidation only. (excuse this tangent; as a geologist I could not help but comment...) I thought it a nice idea to stay one day at the Red Caboose motel, with its unique atmosphere (I have only seen it from outside by now, and never stayed in that area when visiting the Railraod Museum or the steam railroad). Seems it is too late, and I have to make other plans once I get the next chance to see the area. Burkhard Sanner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LKeough107@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:54:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Township Sues Red Caboose Motel --part1_13f.10962d66.2a4f1607_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Burkhard and list Just to add to this vein. I stayed at the Red Caboose with my family about 10 years ago. We thouroughly enjoyed our visit. One thing I noticed inparticulay, while we were there, was the way the Amish were fertilizing their fields. The family that owned the field right next to the Red Caboose (across the tracks, same side of the road) had a horse drawn cart filled with what appeared and smelled to be raw cow manure. They had a devise at the end of the wagon ( much like the flap sander from dremmel motor tool) that would fling the manure where ever it would land. In the operation I witnessed they were laying the manure on fairly thick (no pun intended). The time of year was late September so I don't know if this was a standard practice. I have no idea if this is even a contributing factor the the current problem. But, since this vein was going, I thought I would record my observations for the list. I really hope this situation is resolved in that I would definately like to stay there once more now that the children are grown. Ya'll take care. Steve Keough --part1_13f.10962d66.2a4f1607_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Burkhard and list
  Just to add to this vein.  I stayed at the Red Caboose with my family about 10 years ago.  We thouroughly enjoyed our visit.  One thing I noticed inparticulay, while we were there, was the way the Amish were fertilizing their fields.  The family that owned the field right next to the Red Caboose (across the tracks, same side of the road) had a horse drawn cart filled with what appeared and smelled to be raw cow manure.  They had a devise at the end of the wagon ( much like the flap sander from dremmel motor tool) that would fling the manure where ever it would land. In the operation I witnessed they were laying the manure on fairly thick (no pun intended).  The time of year was late September so I don't know if this was a standard practice. 
  I have no idea if this is even a contributing factor the the current problem.  But, since this vein was going, I thought I would record my observations for the list.  I really hope this situation is resolved in that I would definately like to stay there once more now that the children are grown.  Ya'll take care.
                                                                                              Steve Keough --part1_13f.10962d66.2a4f1607_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 10:20:09 -0400 From: davep Subject: Farming...Re: [PRR] Township Sues Red Caboose Motel LKeough107@aol.com wrote: > Burkhard and list > Just to add to this vein. I stayed at the Red Caboose with my family > about 10 years ago. We thouroughly enjoyed our visit. One thing I > noticed inparticulay, while we were there, was the way the Amish were > fertilizing their fields. The family that owned the field right next to > the Red Caboose (across the tracks, same side of the road) had a horse > drawn cart filled with what appeared and smelled to be raw cow manure. > They had a devise at the end of the wagon ( much like the flap sander > from dremmel motor tool) that would fling the manure where ever it would > land. It's called (oddly) a Manure Spreader. Used to standard on all farms with cows (welll: All I Ever Saw) in the US. Horse or tractor operated... I've No Clue how well it fits with modern environmental regulation, but it makes the fields grow... (I am reminded of sitting behind two Nice Ladies from Manhattan, on a fan trip, (GG1 drawn), to Strasburg, years ago. Overheard: Oh. Look at the farms. Do you suppose they have Cows on those farms? I suppose for a Manhattanite it was reasonable question...) best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1/Wash DC Crash Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 12:40:37 -0400 My question is: did they have to >lower the G into the basement to put in the temporary floor? Or did they >build the floor around 4876? When I saw the wreck scene the day after it happened, the G was completely below the floor level. I don't know if it landed that way, or if they had moved it in prepartation for recovery. One of the passenger cars jack-knifed and punched a hole into the vaulted roof, meaning it went nearly vertical. Quite a scene. Andrew Harmantas, SPF from near C&O Milepost FM Zero. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Charles Ring Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 13:03:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRR]GG1 was K4 Photo, "Chany, Christopher" wrote: > I believe Pennsy Power 2 or 3 has a photo. It wasn't really used as a plow > but to remove snow/ice from switches. > > Great project for a kitbash. > > Anyone know when it was cut in half? Was the other half scrapped? I assume > it would be a called a G_ whatever the next number was for the G class. This > would probably make it the last operating G class loco. I have a picture of the "half-G" on one of my computers, need to find t. IIRC it was 4846. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Charles Ring Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 13:21:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] 4876 wreck Howdy wrote: > Charles, > > I got this bit of info from http://spikesys.com/GG1/ > > The 4876 lost its brakes and pulled the Federal Express right into > Washington Terminal, crashed into the concourse and fell into the > basement. It was cut up into small sections so it could be removed from > the basement, shipped back to Altoona for reassembly. It was returned > to service and still survives today! > Howdy I have seen the pics and info there and a few others of 4876 and its passenger cars after the crash but none of the process of removing it from the building. Other than the car body, I can't figure how it would be possible to split a GG1 into more than two major pieces without destroying it. Traction motors removed maybe? Charles Ring Jr. (son of two PRR people, grandson of one and nephew of two.) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Cprrboss@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 13:34:29 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/29/02 --part1_49.1fac5115.2a4f49a5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, Re: GG1 4876 crash. My father-in-law, John Moyer, was the fireman on that train. He's alive and well and living in York, PA. I have most, if not all, of his documents relating to the crash, i.e. reports of the investigation, many newspaper articles, photos, etc, etc. If anyone would like to look at the documents you are more than welcome to look at them at my home. I could also arrange for you to meet with and talk to John if you wish. Contact me at my email address or phone or snail mail. BOB MARTIN, President & General Manager Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale) A Penn Family Line 45 W. Locust Lane, York, PA 17402 cprrboss@aol.com 717-848-3640 --part1_49.1fac5115.2a4f49a5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List,

Re:  GG1 4876 crash.

My father-in-law, John Moyer, was the fireman on that train.  He's alive and well and living in York, PA.  I have most, if not all, of his documents relating to the crash, i.e.  reports of the investigation, many newspaper articles, photos, etc, etc.  

If anyone would like to look at the documents you are more than welcome to look at them at my home.  I could also arrange for you to meet with and talk to John if you wish.

Contact me at my email address or phone or snail mail.

BOB MARTIN, President & General Manager
Central Pennsylvania Railroad (CPRR) (HO Scale)
A Penn Family Line
45 W. Locust Lane, York, PA  17402
cprrboss@aol.com     717-848-3640
--part1_49.1fac5115.2a4f49a5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 15:20:01 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] 4876 wreck --part1_18a.9ee7141.2a4f6261_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/29/2002 1:37:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, charlesr@infonline.net writes: >Other than the car body, I can't figure how it would be >possible to split a GG1 into more than two major pieces without destroying >it. Traction motors removed maybe? A GG1 is already built in three pieces: two cast steel frames, articulated in the center, which carry all the forces of draft and buff, with the traction motors mounted on the frames and geared to the driving axles, ducts for motor cooling air, plus the "engine" trucks at each end, and brake gear; everything else is in the carbody, which was a bridge structure, with portal braces in the cab area (which made for the cramped operating compartments). The carbody was carried on the underframes on two pinned bolsters, located on the frames between the trucks and the drivers. Other than the bolster pins, there was no physical connection between the carbody and the frames other than electrical wiring and brake piping. For pictures, Middleton's _When the Steam Roads Electrified_ has shots of a GG1 carbody being lowered onto the frames (p. 327) and of the frames from above at the Wilmington shop (p. 355); there is also a shot of the Washington accident on p. 337 from an angle which shows the frames having dropped from beneath the carbody. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_18a.9ee7141.2a4f6261_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/29/2002 1:37:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, charlesr@infonline.net writes:

>Other than the car body, I can't figure how it would be
>possible to split a GG1 into more than two major pieces without destroying
>it. Traction motors removed maybe?

A GG1 is already built in three pieces: two cast steel frames, articulated in the
center, which carry all the forces of draft and buff, with the traction motors
mounted on the frames and geared to the driving axles, ducts for motor cooling
air, plus the "engine" trucks at each end, and brake gear; everything else is in
the carbody, which was a bridge structure, with portal braces in the cab area
(which made for the cramped operating compartments). The carbody was carried
on the underframes on two pinned bolsters, located on the frames between the
trucks and the drivers. Other than the bolster pins, there was no physical
connection between the carbody and the frames other than electrical wiring
and brake piping. For pictures, Middleton's _When the Steam Roads
Electrified_ has shots of a GG1 carbody being lowered onto the frames
(p. 327) and of the frames from above at the Wilmington shop (p. 355);
there is also a shot of the Washington accident on p. 337 from an angle
which shows the frames having dropped from beneath the carbody.

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA --part1_18a.9ee7141.2a4f6261_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 21:18:34 -0400 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: [PRR]GG1 was K4 Photo, Sorry to say I missed most of this string. FWIW, the 4846 was already in G 1/2 mode in December 1969. It was used to blow out snow fouled switches within the Wilmington Shop/ Wilmington Enginehouse complex. It did not carry a road number, and did not leave shop territory. It had a propensity to derail, so it was used rarely. JW -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Charles Ring Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 1:04 PM To: Chany, Christopher; PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRR]GG1 was K4 Photo, "Chany, Christopher" wrote: > I believe Pennsy Power 2 or 3 has a photo. It wasn't really used as a plow > but to remove snow/ice from switches. > > Great project for a kitbash. > > Anyone know when it was cut in half? Was the other half scrapped? I assume > it would be a called a G_ whatever the next number was for the G class. This > would probably make it the last operating G class loco. I have a picture of the "half-G" on one of my computers, need to find t. IIRC it was 4846. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Charles Ring Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 21:55:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRR]GG1 was K4 Photo, Joe Witcofsky wrote: > Sorry to say I missed most of this string. FWIW, the 4846 was already in G > 1/2 mode in December 1969. It was used to blow out snow fouled switches > within the Wilmington Shop/ Wilmington Enginehouse complex. > It did not carry a road number, and did not leave shop territory. > It had a propensity to derail, so it was used rarely. > > JW Why was it converted? Was the other half damaged beyond repair somehow? Why did it derail often? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] 4876 wreck Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 21:10:38 -0700 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C21FB1.6AED3C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I remember reading the complete report from the investigation once. = It's available online somewhere, though I forget where. It's on the = website of the federal agency responsible for investigating such things. = It was a very interesting read. In summary, the angle cock on the = third car somehow got knocked closed south of Baltimore. =20 There were all sorts of other interesting wreck investigations too. = Most interesting to me were some near Zoo: a head-on at K-Zoo on track = 4, derail/death crossing 2 to 1 at K-Zoo, a sideswipe upperlevel of 30th = st over the schuylkill river. Couldn't find the one where the train = lost it's brakes into suburban station tk 11 though. =20 For those interested, the link is probably somewhere in the archives - = search on another 4876 wreck discussion within the last two years. =20 John -----Original Message----- From: BBReynolds@aol.com To: charlesr@infonline.net ; = prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Saturday, June 29, 2002 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] 4876 wreck =20 =20 In a message dated 6/29/2002 1:37:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, = charlesr@infonline.net writes:=20 =20 >Other than the car body, I can't figure how it would be=20 >possible to split a GG1 into more than two major pieces without = destroying=20 >it. Traction motors removed maybe?=20 =20 A GG1 is already built in three pieces: two cast steel frames, = articulated in the=20 center, which carry all the forces of draft and buff, with the = traction motors=20 mounted on the frames and geared to the driving axles, ducts for = motor cooling=20 air, plus the "engine" trucks at each end, and brake gear; = everything else is in=20 the carbody, which was a bridge structure, with portal braces in the = cab area=20 (which made for the cramped operating compartments). The carbody was = carried=20 on the underframes on two pinned bolsters, located on the frames = between the=20 trucks and the drivers. Other than the bolster pins, there was no = physical=20 connection between the carbody and the frames other than electrical = wiring=20 and brake piping. For pictures, Middleton's _When the Steam Roads=20 Electrified_ has shots of a GG1 carbody being lowered onto the = frames=20 (p. 327) and of the frames from above at the Wilmington shop (p. = 355);=20 there is also a shot of the Washington accident on p. 337 from an = angle=20 which shows the frames having dropped from beneath the carbody.=20 =20 Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C21FB1.6AED3C40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I remember reading the complete report from the = investigation=20 once.  It's available online somewhere, though I forget = where.  It's=20 on the website of the federal agency responsible for investigating such=20 things.  It was a very interesting read.  In summary, the = angle cock=20 on the third car somehow got knocked closed south of = Baltimore.
 
There were all sorts of other interesting wreck = investigations=20 too.  Most interesting to me were some near Zoo: a head-on at K-Zoo = on=20 track 4, derail/death crossing 2 to 1 at K-Zoo, a sideswipe upperlevel = of 30th=20 st over the schuylkill river.  Couldn't find the one where the = train lost=20 it's brakes into suburban station tk 11 though.
 
For those interested, the link is probably somewhere = in the=20 archives - search on another 4876 wreck discussion within the last two=20 years.
 
John
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 BBReynolds@aol.com = <BBReynolds@aol.com>
To: = charlesr@infonline.net = <charlesr@infonline.net>; = prr-talk@dsop.com <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Saturday, June 29, 2002 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] = 4876=20 wreck

In a=20 message dated 6/29/2002 1:37:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, charlesr@infonline.net = writes:=20

>Other than the car body, I can't figure how it would be=20
>possible to split a GG1 into more than two major pieces = without=20 destroying
>it. Traction motors removed maybe?

A GG1 = is=20 already built in three pieces: two cast steel frames, articulated in = the=20
center, which carry all the forces of draft and buff, with the = traction=20 motors
mounted on the frames and geared to the driving axles, = ducts for=20 motor cooling
air, plus the "engine" trucks at each = end, and=20 brake gear; everything else is in
the carbody, which was a = bridge=20 structure, with portal braces in the cab area
(which made for = the=20 cramped operating compartments). The carbody was carried
on the=20 underframes on two pinned bolsters, located on the frames between = the=20
trucks and the drivers. Other than the bolster pins, there was = no=20 physical
connection between the carbody and the frames other = than=20 electrical wiring
and brake piping. For pictures, Middleton's = _When the=20 Steam Roads
Electrified_ has shots of a GG1 carbody being = lowered onto=20 the frames
(p. 327) and of the frames from above at the = Wilmington shop=20 (p. 355);
there is also a shot of the Washington accident on p. = 337 from=20 an angle
which shows the frames having dropped from beneath the = carbody.=20

Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside = PA=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C21FB1.6AED3C40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 14:48:41 -0400 From: davep Subject: [PRR] OT [Fwd: [MILW] Shipping of Live Fish on the Milwaukee.] Discard if of no interest... In view of the recent thread on various live livestock, this seemed permissible: ============================================================= -------- Original Message -------- From: - Sun Jun 30 13:53:39 2002 Over a year ago, their was an interesting thread on this list on the shipping of live fish by the Milwaukee- centering on Iowa and Wisconsin. Cecil Cook has a number of photos that he took in Lansing, Iowa in the early 1950s of a Milwaukee baggage car full of fish at Lansing, being transported by a way freight presumably to Marquette or Savanna for forwarding in passenger service on to Chicago, the East Coast, or to ? Denver. These live fish, almost all carp caught in the Mississippi, and subsequently fattened up on corn in river-side ponds would have been destined for Kosher markets- presumably for gelfeltefish. Wetmoc added to the thread by recalling that during his days as a passenger engineman in the early fifties that they would routinely pick up every Sunday in Madison a NYC baggage car full of live fish (carp) for New York with a messenger on board. Very little information on this unusual service surfaced at the time, or since, and it continues to be somewhat of a mystery. I have talked to Cecil Cook, and he has been unable to add very much. Yesterday morning, Mrs. A and I visited Lansing, a very pleasant Iowa town on the upper Mississippi not too far south of the Minnesota border, and noted a sign on one of the ancient river-side buildings "Museum". It was not open ("1-4 PM, Saturdays and Sundays"), but the door was ajar. We parked our car, the rear bumper of which only barely cleared the main line of the IMRL (nee Milwaukee) line that was traversing the street lengthwise. A very nice lady was sweeping things out, and after prostrating myself and offering up our next new born, we were allowed the private free run of the place. It was extremely interesting, and besides a lot of information and a lot of photos on steamboat days (a sometimes- consuming side interest), the major exhibits all centered on the carp fishing industry that supported the town for decades, and I learned a great deal about Milwaukee and the fish industry. There were a great number of undated photos of baggage carts stacked high with iced wood boxes full of dressed fish being loaded in the baggage section of the motor train that used to go to Dubuque (? - I am temporarily devoid of any access to reference materials). The amount being shipped would seem to challenge the amount of space in the car. In each picture that showed the train, the trailing passenger coach was one of the beautiful arch-transom wood cars that originally came from the Spirit Lake line in Idaho. Most interesting were undated photos of the cars for shipping the live fish: they were all Baltimore & Ohio c. 70-75' steel baggage cars in an 800 series (as well as I could read) with two windows on each side besides the doors. One photo showed three of these cars in Lansing, and another photo featured the messenger on board by name, a man from Ohio. Presumably, these cars would have been picked up by a way freight to be forwarded on to the east (Philadelphia/Baltimore most likely) at Marquette, either by the night time SIOUX, or by the daytime MINNESOTA MARQUETTE. I do not recall when the motor train ceased to operate, but in any case, it could not have handled these cars. No photos of the Milwaukee cars used in this live fish service came to light in the museum, and one wonders whether the car pictured so many times by Cecil Cook was instead filled with iced dressed fish for Chicago. If so, this would have to be very unusual for such a perishable cargo to be shipped in an uninsulated and unaccompanied car in way freight service. The fresh fish industry in Lansing declined in the fifties- and trucks were used increasingly in shipments. It ceased altogether by about 1980. An irony: during the last years, the industry was owned by a local company just over the hill right here in Spirit Lake, IOWA, which for decades, and still today, raises pond corn fed carp for the New York market. They always have shipped by truck, however, even when the Milwaukee and the Rock Island both had fine passenger services into the town. Denny ================================================== best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 17:12:55 -0400 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: [PRR]GG1 was K4 Photo, -----Original Message----- From: Charles Ring [mailto:charlesr@infonline.net] Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 9:55 PM To: Joe Witcofsky; PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRR]GG1 was K4 Photo, Charles Ring wrote: > "Why was it converted? Was the other half damaged beyond repair somehow? Why did it derail often?" A. Don't really know. Generally a GG-1 was set aside when it was no longer economicly viable to repair or rebuild it. Wilmington Locomotive Shop General Foreman Joe Kepner was noted for many innovations with the GG1. Possibly he saw some use for a snow blower, had the material, workforce and time and experimented. It derailed primarily because of deplorable track within the confines of the shop and engine terminal. Also, when running reverse, the single rigid frame which held the 3 drive axels had no give. Therefore.......... JW ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gripp, William [NCSUS]" Subject: RE: [PRR] RE: [PRR]GG1 was K4 Photo, Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 17:18:11 -0400 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2207B.6F641580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Actually 1/2 a GG1 would be a G not a 1/2 G. =B^) > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles Ring [mailto:charlesr@infonline.net] > Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 9:55 PM > To: Joe Witcofsky; PRR Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRR]GG1 was K4 Photo, > > > > > Joe Witcofsky wrote: > > > Sorry to say I missed most of this string. FWIW, the 4846 > was already in G > > 1/2 mode in December 1969. It was used to blow out snow > fouled switches > > within the Wilmington Shop/ Wilmington Enginehouse complex. > > It did not carry a road number, and did not leave shop territory. > > It had a propensity to derail, so it was used rarely. > > > > JW > > Why was it converted? Was the other half damaged beyond > repair somehow? Why > did it derail often? > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C2207B.6F641580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [PRR] RE: [PRR]GG1 was K4 Photo,

Actually 1/2 a GG1 would be a G not a 1/2 G.  = =3DB^)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Ring [mailto:charlesr@infonline.net= ]
> Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 9:55 PM
> To: Joe Witcofsky; PRR Talk
> Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRR]GG1 was K4 = Photo,
>
>
>
>
> Joe Witcofsky wrote:
>
> > Sorry to say I missed most of this string. = FWIW, the 4846
> was already in G
> > 1/2 mode in December 1969. It was used to = blow out snow
> fouled switches
> > within the Wilmington Shop/ Wilmington = Enginehouse complex.
> > It did not carry a road number, and did = not leave shop territory.
> > It had a propensity to derail, so it was = used rarely.
> >
> > JW
>
> Why was it converted? Was the other half = damaged beyond
> repair somehow? Why
> did it derail often?
>
>
>
>
>
> = --------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C2207B.6F641580-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 17:33:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] (LOCO) MP:229 List, Need some help on a particular Locomotive. Anyone have an MP:229 from the era of 1948-1952? If so can you please email off list for the particulars I need to know. My latest is from 1943 but that dosn't help me too much....Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 19:12:25 EDT Subject: [PRR] Atlas H34 cars --part1_dc.19390bea.2a50ea59_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/27/02 8:18:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Atlas did the H34 subclasses To be exact, Atlas has the later PS-2 2003 cf body, and so can only do H34C (first or second order) and H34D. Model Die Casting's PS-2 offering is still the closest to H34, H34A, and H34B. Believe my Atlas 3-pack includes one H34C in SK1b lettering, one in SK2a, and one in PK. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_dc.19390bea.2a50ea59_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/27/02 8:18:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Atlas did the H34 subclasses


To be exact, Atlas has the later PS-2 2003 cf body, and so can only do H34C (first or second order) and H34D.  Model Die Casting's PS-2 offering is still the closest to H34, H34A, and H34B.

Believe my Atlas 3-pack includes one H34C in SK1b lettering, one in SK2a, and one in PK.

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_dc.19390bea.2a50ea59_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 19:19:07 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: [PRR]GG1 was K4 Photo, > Actually 1/2 a GG1 would be a G not a 1/2 G. =B^) I suggest what it would be would depend on what OTHER 'G' class wheel arrangements pre-existed. Thus: GG1 was first 'articulated' 'G'. G referred to 4-6-0 (or 2-Co-0) wheel arrangement. Had there been (I get slovenly on steamers) previous 'G' (and i think there were...) the 'snow blower' would gave been Gn, where 'n' was the next available sequence number. (or maybe not, as PRR changed the numbering scheme around 1950...) As to origins, SOMEthing ran into a Track Maintenance machine about that time. I VAGUELY recall that was donor for 'Franken G', but may be rong.. (And back at Union Station: Someone might advise the web site stating '4867's brakes failed' that, as noted here: the TRAIN brakes failed (got disabled). 4867's brakes did what they could. (Old Joke: Why did it take them so long to get the lok OUT of the basement? That's where the checked luggage room was. And no one had the ticket for the lok...) best dwp ...the net of a million lies... Vernor Vinge There are Many Web Sites which Say Many Things. -me ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 19:42:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] (LOCO) MP:229 Hello Gary, I have a MP-229 from that era. What do you need? Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 17:33:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] (LOCO) MP:229 List, Need some help on a particular Locomotive. Anyone have an MP:229 from the era of 1948-1952? If so can you please email off list for the particulars I need to know. My latest is from 1943 but that dosn't help me too much....Thanks, Gary ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Free $5 Love Reading Risk Free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/3PCXaC/PfREAA/Ey.GAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 22:24:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] GG-1 (ODD) One thing you learn early is not to assume anything about the way PRR classed stuff. (Most people would have thought that the P-5a "Modifieds" would have been a seperate class) How the 1/2 G might have been classed would have been based on whether it was still "self propelled" and/or capable of moving anything in addition to itself. If classed as a Loco it could have been a "G-6" or a "G-1" - since all of them had long since been scrapped - there would also be a precedent for calling it a "G -odd" or a "G-28 or 29" (Experimental) Precedents for Both My guess, If the accounting dept had taken it as a loss, that it would have acquired some "MOW" classification - BTW what class were the Russell Plows? RR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 23:19:38 -0400 From: dwsnrhs@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] 4876 wreck In a message dated Sat, 29 Jun 2002 11:10:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, johncoop@ix.netcom.com writes: > I remember reading the complete report from the investigation once. It's available online somewhere, though I forget where. It's on the website of the federal agency responsible for investigating such things. It was a very interesting read. In summary, the angle cock on the third car somehow got knocked closed south of Baltimore. > > There were all sorts of other interesting wreck investigations too. Most interesting to me were some near Zoo: a head-on at K-Zoo on track 4, derail/death crossing 2 to 1 at K-Zoo, a sideswipe upperlevel of 30th st over the schuylkill river. Couldn't find the one where the train lost it's brakes into suburban station tk 11 though. > > For those interested, the link is probably somewhere in the archives - search on another 4876 wreck discussion within > the last two years. > > John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 23:28:52 -0400 From: dwsnrhs@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] 4876 wreck In a message dated Sat, 29 Jun 2002 11:10:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, johncoop@ix.netcom.com writes: > > Subj: Re: [PRR] 4876 wreck > Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 11:10:38 PM Eastern Standard Time > From: "John Cooper" > To: > Sent from the Internet (Details) > > > I remember reading the complete report from the investigation once. It's available online somewhere, though I forget where. It's on the website of the federal agency responsible for investigating such things. It was a very interesting read. In summary, the angle cock on the third car somehow got knocked closed south of Baltimore. > > There were all sorts of other interesting wreck investigations too. Most interesting to me were some near Zoo: a head-on at K-Zoo on track 4, derail/death crossing 2 to 1 at K-Zoo, a sideswipe upperlevel of 30th st over the schuylkill river. Couldn't find the one where the train lost it's brakes into suburban station tk 11 though. > > For those interested, the link is probably somewhere in the archives - search on another 4876 wreck discussion within > the last two years. > > John A report of the Washington D. C. terminal wreck with GG-1 # 4876 is available from official ICC reports on the investigation. Go to: http://specialcollections.tasc.dot.gov. Click on ICC Historical Railroad Investigation Reports. Use the dark blue left margin heading for TABLE OF CONTENTS. A list of years will appear. The report will be listed under 1953 and for the Washington Union Terminal NOT PRR. This same list will locate a variety of PRR accident reports for interesting perusal. Dave Seidel, Altoona, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!!