Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 00:06:28 -0500 From: davep Subject: [PRR] A technical question about car floats Car floats were used by many RRs, more so in the past than presently. Many served in NY harbour, they crossed from Canada to US (Michigan), Milwaukee had some on the west coast of the US, Canadian West Coast had their share. A technical question tho: How Many Scoops of Ice Cream to make a Car Float? best dwp (PS: Happy 1 April....) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael DiMaio" Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 05:51:59 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Big Pennsy project!!! I am a fan of Microsoft's Train Simulator. A number of us have decided to rebuild the PRR's mainline in PA virtually. There are some going from Pittsburgh to Altoona, and others doing Philly to Harrisburg. Atleast one person is attempting to revbuild the mainline from NYC to Philly in this manner. The PRR line from DC to Philly is in operation. I, for better or worse, have taken on the route from Harrisburg to Altoona/ Tyrone. Using 3 dimensional cartographical software and USGS topographical maps I have just finished recreating in 3 dimensions all the topography of the main line from Steelton/Harrisburg to Tyrone/Altoona. The task of laying track or setting up a marker file which will tell me or others where to place the trackage. To do this I will again rely on USCS maps and overlays which show the trackage from the air. I have gone through what Jerry has available online as far as track maps go. If any one has clear maps that are on-line and easy to use, accesss to them would be appreciated. If any one has familiarity with MSTS and or its route editor, I would sure like some help in laying track. I will be uploading the Allegeny Mountains and all of the terrain from Altoona to Harrisburg at http://www.train-sim.com in the middle of the week., if any one is interested in downloading it. I am only concerned with thwe path of the Broadway Limited so, for that reason, although sidings will be provided, I do not plan to stray from the mainline. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SHanlon@dnr.state.md.us Subject: [PRR] conowingo line... Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 07:54:59 -0500 got this from our website... http://www.dnr.state.md.us/greenways/harford.html scroll to the bottom. Steven Hanlon Computer Information Services Specialist Information Technology Service 580 Taylor Ave., D4 Annapolis, Maryland 21401 Phone: 410-260-8955 Fax: 410-260-8373 ########################################### This message has been scanned for viruses. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 09:17:37 EST From: WAJK4@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Those other PRR E8s This subject came up about a week ago with some friends of mine. I vaguely remember one of them was scraped for some reason or the frame and motor were needed for another project out west, and the shell was offered to a few people, but I don't know where it ended up. As for the fate of the second unit, I cannot recall exactly, but I think it is stil owned privately. Please correct me if I am wrong. Walt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:25:25 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Those other PRR E8s --part1_45.153ada26.29d9c7d5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/1/2002 9:22:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, WAJK4@aol.com writes: > > This subject came up about a week ago with some friends of mine. I vaguely > remember one of them was scraped for some reason or the frame and motor > were needed for another project out west, and the shell was offered to a > few people, but I don't know where it ended up. As for the fate of the > second unit, I cannot recall exactly, but I think it is stil owned > privately. Please correct me if I am wrong. > > > Walt > > Walt, It seems that someone sent me info awhile back on one of these units. If I remember correctly the motor was removed and the unit was put on display in NE Alabama. Todd Horton --part1_45.153ada26.29d9c7d5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/1/2002 9:22:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, WAJK4@aol.com writes:



This subject came up about a week ago with some friends of mine.  I vaguely remember one of them was scraped for some reason or the frame and motor were needed for another project out west, and the shell was offered to a few people, but I don't know where it ended up.  As for the fate of the second unit, I cannot recall exactly, but I think it is stil owned privately.  Please correct me if I am wrong.


Walt



Walt, It seems that someone sent me info awhile back on one of these units. If I remember correctly the motor was removed and the unit was put on display in NE Alabama. Todd Horton --part1_45.153ada26.29d9c7d5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 10:14:02 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Excursion From: Jerry Britton Mark your calendars... > The "Broadway Limited" railfan excursion, sponsored by the Windy City > Chapter of the National Historic Railway Society (NHRS), is indeed set for > October 12-15 (Columbus Day weekend). > > The New York-Chicago round-trip excursion will commence at New York City > with pickups at Philadelphia and Harrisburg. Both coach seat and private car > accommodations will be available. > > The excursion will be headed by a pair of restored E8 diesel locomotives. > Most coaches will be MARC coaches that were once PRR sleeper cars. A > surviving mid-train lounge from the FALLS series will be in the consist, as > will a restored VIEW series observation bringing up the rear. > > The full itinerary and fare schedule will be released in about four weeks. > > If this trip is successful, there are already plans to do a "Penn Texas" > excursion in conjunction with the Missouri Pacific Society. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:56:52 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] More Broadway Limited M1 Information Gary sez: >Anyway, I am not into DCC but I was >alerted by Charles W. of this list, that Soundtraxx does not have a PRR >item in their inventory of sounds. Nope, although some of us think that the whistle on the British L-1 tank engine sounds an awful lot like a PRR banshee. Which, with your comment on boiler pressure, brings to mind a comment by OP Orr in Set Up Running. He noted that when boiler pressure was increased, the frequency of the banshee became so high as to be inaudible over at least half its range. > I remember awhile back that listers >were wishing for a GG-1 sound from them. Nothing ever come from >requests? I TRIED very hard to get this, to the point that we had lined up everything we needed (thanks again gang!) but my email and phone calls to Soundtraxx just resulted in one delay after another. I just gave up after a while. Hopefully QSI will pick up the banner. It was recommend by Charles that I make contact with >Soundtraxx and offer them the sounds of my PRR 3 Chime Whstle. if not >I suppose they will wait for 1361 to hit the rails again. Oh well, I >will post their response when I hear more Their reluctance is difficult to understand, since the tools are there to make a good recording and the applications are available (like a drop in decoder for the Bachman K4) >PS: Soundtraxx wanted me to send my Whistle out to them in Colorodo so >they could get the whistle sounds they are looking for. They have access >to steam. I said I don't think so! That is particularly odd since they told me that all they needed were high quality recordings, with no background. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Excursion Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 15:57:00 +0000 April Fools. Right? >From: Jerry Britton >To: PRR-Talk LIST >Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Excursion >Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 10:14:02 -0500 > >Mark your calendars... > > > > The "Broadway Limited" railfan excursion, sponsored by the Windy City > > Chapter of the National Historic Railway Society (NHRS), is indeed set >for > > October 12-15 (Columbus Day weekend). > > > > The New York-Chicago round-trip excursion will commence at New York City > > with pickups at Philadelphia and Harrisburg. Both coach seat and private >car > > accommodations will be available. > > > > The excursion will be headed by a pair of restored E8 diesel >locomotives. > > Most coaches will be MARC coaches that were once PRR sleeper cars. A > > surviving mid-train lounge from the FALLS series will be in the consist, >as > > will a restored VIEW series observation bringing up the rear. > > > > The full itinerary and fare schedule will be released in about four >weeks. > > > > If this trip is successful, there are already plans to do a "Penn Texas" > > excursion in conjunction with the Missouri Pacific Society. > >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 11:01:08 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Excursion From: Jerry Britton More details in. See http://www.pennsyrr.com/excursion/ >> Mark your calendars... >> >> >>> The "Broadway Limited" railfan excursion, sponsored by the Windy City >>> Chapter of the National Historic Railway Society (NHRS), is indeed set >> for >>> October 12-15 (Columbus Day weekend). >>> >>> The New York-Chicago round-trip excursion will commence at New York City >>> with pickups at Philadelphia and Harrisburg. Both coach seat and private >> car >>> accommodations will be available. >>> >>> The excursion will be headed by a pair of restored E8 diesel >> locomotives. >>> Most coaches will be MARC coaches that were once PRR sleeper cars. A >>> surviving mid-train lounge from the FALLS series will be in the consist, >> as >>> will a restored VIEW series observation bringing up the rear. >>> >>> The full itinerary and fare schedule will be released in about four >> weeks. >>> >>> If this trip is successful, there are already plans to do a "Penn Texas" >>> excursion in conjunction with the Missouri Pacific Society. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 11:15:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] More Broadway Limited M1 Information Bruce, Well, my 5 minute video of my PRR 3 Chime Whistle being blown is on its way to Soundtraxx. Plenty of sounds there for them to choose from. From short toots, low moans and grade crossing type screams. The ball is in their court. If they are serious they should consider these. If not they may wait for the 1361 to hit the rails (another 2 years?) to record the sounds they are after. By that time they may be behind the competitors. Now that QS1 is hitting the HO sound market, they may be the ones to wach?.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 08:44:26 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Hell Gate Models New Product Announcement From: "Douglas Nelson" Hell Gate Models is pleased to announce our next product: After much research and popular request from our customers, we have chosen our next project to follow up on our successful N Scale PRR B60b Baggage Car. We are making this special product available for the first time in any scale (other than 1:1). It will be sure to get those SPF juices flowing: The Raymond Lowey-designed official PRR Trash Receptacle in N Scale. This icon of streamlined design was Lowey's first of many projects for the PRR. The streamlined styling gave the effect that the trash can was moving even when standing still! This beauty is sure to spill up those N Scale passenger platforms. Finely cast in pure resin with simulated aluminum fluting, this item is ready to run. And best of all, there will be not more excuses for trash to litter your layout. Demand is expected to be very high, so get your orders in early. Quantity discounts available! If that isn't exciting enough for you, check our next product to follow soon: Our new N Scale PRR BM70k Railway Post Office/Baggage Cars. Visit the website: www.HellGateModels.com Sincerely: Hell Gate Models ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Hell Gate Models New Product Announcement Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:28:55 -0500 Happy April 1st! Bur really folks, does anyone have a picture of the "famous" trash can and where were they used. Chris (waiting for the z scale version)Chany -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Nelson [mailto:dougnelson@mindspring.com] Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 11:44 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Hell Gate Models New Product Announcement Hell Gate Models is pleased to announce our next product: After much research and popular request from our customers, we have chosen our next project to follow up on our successful N Scale PRR B60b Baggage Car. We are making this special product available for the first time in any scale (other than 1:1). It will be sure to get those SPF juices flowing: The Raymond Lowey-designed official PRR Trash Receptacle in N Scale. This icon of streamlined design was Lowey's first of many projects for the PRR. The streamlined styling gave the effect that the trash can was moving even when standing still! This beauty is sure to spill up those N Scale passenger platforms. Finely cast in pure resin with simulated aluminum fluting, this item is ready to run. And best of all, there will be not more excuses for trash to litter your layout. Demand is expected to be very high, so get your orders in early. Quantity discounts available! If that isn't exciting enough for you, check our next product to follow soon: Our new N Scale PRR BM70k Railway Post Office/Baggage Cars. Visit the website: www.HellGateModels.com Sincerely: Hell Gate Models ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 12:52:13 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Cove, Rockville, Enola Pics Posted From: Jerry Britton Was railfanning at Cove, Rockville, and Enola this past Friday. Posted the pics. Best bet is to go to the archive, do not select any search criteria, but set the sort to "Photo ID newest first". http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/photos/ Included are pics of the Rockville Bridge the day before its 100th birthday. Also, the ex-PRR turntable used in service at Enola. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 13:23:40 EST Subject: [PRR] Extra video and book Product of having too much "stuff". I found that by accident I have two of the following. If anyone is interested contact me offlist. Softcover publication "Heart of the PRR", Mainline Phila-Pitts, Kalmbach publication in Golden Yeras of Railroading series. Video PRR Powr Vol II from Railroad Video Productions. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "S J Lash" Subject: Re: [PRR] E.C.W Passenger Trucks Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:42:31 -0500 DR Freed, I just pulled up ECW's web site and can't find #'s 9042 or 9043. Possibly should they be 9052 and 9053? Jim Lash ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" To: ; ; Sent: Sunday, March 31, 2002 9:08 PM Subject: [PRR] E.C.W Passenger Trucks > Listers- > > Can anyone add a Pullman or PRR class number to the following ECW trucks: > For example- > #9007 = 41-BNO > > #9003 = > #9005 = > #9006 = > #9040 = > #9041 = > #9042 = > #9043 > > Thanks in advance, > > Eddie > Dr. Edmond L. Freed > PRRT&HS # 156 > Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 19:21:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Those other PRR E8s That's a sad ending for those E units. I saw them a few years back, up at Horseshoe Curve (with a Conrail SD40-2 leading). I think they were former PRR units(?) As a teenager, I would go to Bay Head N.J. to take photos of the E units in the yard. This was the Penn Central era but you could still see Keystones underneath the black paint. Got lucky one day and was offered a ride in one the old Es. The trailing unit was a E7. The last one on the system. Real lucky! Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 19:57:44 EST Subject: [PRR] Passenger car detail/kitbashing --part1_10e.ee4d972.29da5c08_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With the Branchline Pullmans delayed "indefinitely" and the selection of other manufacturers' heavyweight Pullmans being what they are (yuk!) one would think the NERS would be doing land-boom business on its Pullman detail parts business. After all, it's the best way to derive a favorite model using the Rivarossi 12&1 as a basis. However I have just learned that NERS parts supplies are dwindling rapidly at all the hobby shop locations I've searched. Has NERS gone under?? I have purchased a few brass cars recently but to outfit a fleet of trains in brass would be outrageously expensive -- and I'm not sure my motive power is capable of hauling a 10-car heavyweight consist of brass beauties. Any suggestions out there?? Thanks, Chris --part1_10e.ee4d972.29da5c08_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit With the Branchline Pullmans delayed "indefinitely" and the selection of other manufacturers' heavyweight Pullmans being what they are (yuk!) one would think the NERS would be doing land-boom business on its Pullman detail parts business.  After all, it's the best way to derive a favorite model using the Rivarossi 12&1 as a basis.  However I have just learned that NERS parts supplies are dwindling rapidly at all the hobby shop locations I've searched.  Has NERS gone under??

I have purchased a few brass cars recently but to outfit a fleet of trains in brass would be outrageously expensive -- and I'm not sure my motive power is capable of hauling a 10-car heavyweight consist of brass beauties.  Any suggestions out there??

Thanks,
Chris --part1_10e.ee4d972.29da5c08_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Gondloa guru needed Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 21:59:02 -0500 Hi All, I had a potential customer ask the following question: I am just trying to confirm whether or not the upcoming Pennsy S Models G26 gondola is a match to Seaboard Air Line's GB 6500 series gondola, which were 65' long, had a 70 ton capacity, and had a 3'6" inside height... and had drop-ends. They were built by Pullman-Standard in 1949 to the AAR design. I question the use of his term of "match", however, perhaps you have a photo of the SAL car as a comparison. Please reply to billlane@snip.net, because I do not receive email from most of my groups. Thank You Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 21:59:02 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Gondloa guru needed Hi All, I had a potential customer ask the following question: I am just trying to confirm whether or not the upcoming Pennsy S Models G26 gondola is a match to Seaboard Air Line's GB 6500 series gondola, which were 65' long, had a 70 ton capacity, and had a 3'6" inside height... and had drop-ends. They were built by Pullman-Standard in 1949 to the AAR design. I question the use of his term of "match", however, perhaps you have a photo of the SAL car as a comparison. Please reply to billlane@snip.net, because I do not receive email from most of my groups. Thank You Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Access the Worlds Largest network of Web Developers & Designers Post your Project for FREE Designers & Developers Bid to get your Business http://us.click.yahoo.com/rXNj8C/W.zDAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: [AD] Re: [PRR] Passenger car detail/kitbashing Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 22:28:40 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C1D9CC.93389800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable NERS is still very much in business. He no longer distributes his = products through Walthers. You may order them direct from NERS. Or, we = have all available parts in stock. For currently available products, = please click on the NEW ENGLAND RAIL SERVICE listing on our web site at = http://www.onerrave.com. I hope this helps. Dennis Mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES (732) 271-0800 Voice http://www.onerrave.com (732) 271-0805 FAX 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 7:57 PM Subject: [PRR] Passenger car detail/kitbashing With the Branchline Pullmans delayed "indefinitely" and the selection = of other manufacturers' heavyweight Pullmans being what they are (yuk!) = one would think the NERS would be doing land-boom business on its = Pullman detail parts business. After all, it's the best way to derive a = favorite model using the Rivarossi 12&1 as a basis. However I have just = learned that NERS parts supplies are dwindling rapidly at all the hobby = shop locations I've searched. Has NERS gone under?? I have purchased a few brass cars recently but to outfit a fleet of = trains in brass would be outrageously expensive -- and I'm not sure my = motive power is capable of hauling a 10-car heavyweight consist of brass = beauties. Any suggestions out there?? Thanks, Chris=20 ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C1D9CC.93389800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
NERS is still very much in business.  He no longer distributes = his=20 products through Walthers.  You may order them direct from = NERS.  Or,=20 we have all available parts in stock.  For currently available = products,=20 please click on the NEW ENGLAND RAIL SERVICE listing on our web = site at http://www.onerrave.com.

I hope this helps.
 
Dennis
Mailto: dennis@onerrave.com
 
D & S=20 HOBBIES           =             &= nbsp;   =20 (732) 271-0800  Voice
http://www.onerrave.com  &= nbsp;          =20 (732) 271-0805  FAX
34 Main Street
South Bound Brook, NJ = 08880
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chrisandbelton2@aol.com
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 = 7:57=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Passenger car=20 detail/kitbashing

With the Branchline Pullmans delayed = "indefinitely" and the=20 selection of other manufacturers' heavyweight Pullmans being what they = are=20 (yuk!) one would think the NERS would be doing land-boom business on = its=20 Pullman detail parts business.  After all, it's the best way to = derive a=20 favorite model using the Rivarossi 12&1 as a basis.  However = I have=20 just learned that NERS parts supplies are dwindling rapidly at all the = hobby=20 shop locations I've searched.  Has NERS gone under??

I = have=20 purchased a few brass cars recently but to outfit a fleet of trains in = brass=20 would be outrageously expensive -- and I'm not sure my motive power is = capable=20 of hauling a 10-car heavyweight consist of brass beauties.  Any=20 suggestions out there??

Thanks,
Chris=20 ------=_NextPart_000_005A_01C1D9CC.93389800-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] PRR X30 Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 01:24:13 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1D9E5.191DB500 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Anybody know if a good picture of this Fire Engine carrying boxcar = exists?? Earl Myers ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1D9E5.191DB500 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Anybody know if a good picture of this = Fire Engine=20 carrying boxcar exists??
Earl Myers
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C1D9E5.191DB500-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:59:49 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Signals Question From: "Douglas Nelson" Pennsy signals are a subject of much mystery to many of us. I wonder if there is a simple answer to the following question? In a 1956 photo of the signal bridge that sat about a quarter mile west of AR Tower (Gallitzen) there are four tracks and four targets (facing eastbound trains), each with a different arrangement of lights. The southernmost track signal (#0 Track on the diagram) shows only three horizontal lights: o o o The next signal (Siding #1 on the diagram) has the full 7 lights: o o o o o o o The next track (labeled #1 Track Ewd. Frt.) has 5 lights with the following pattern: o o o o o The northernmost track (labeled #2 Track Ewd. Pass.) has 5 lights with the following pattern: o o o o o The question is why are these all different? Why no approach and no proceed on some tracks? Seems like a simple question, I suspect the answer is not so simple, but any help is appreciated. Thanks, Doug Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Nelson" Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 22:59:49 -0800 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Signals Question Pennsy signals are a subject of much mystery to many of us. I wonder if there is a simple answer to the following question? In a 1956 photo of the signal bridge that sat about a quarter mile west of AR Tower (Gallitzen) there are four tracks and four targets (facing eastbound trains), each with a different arrangement of lights. The southernmost track signal (#0 Track on the diagram) shows only three horizontal lights: o o o The next signal (Siding #1 on the diagram) has the full 7 lights: o o o o o o o The next track (labeled #1 Track Ewd. Frt.) has 5 lights with the following pattern: o o o o o The northernmost track (labeled #2 Track Ewd. Pass.) has 5 lights with the following pattern: o o o o o The question is why are these all different? Why no approach and no proceed on some tracks? Seems like a simple question, I suspect the answer is not so simple, but any help is appreciated. Thanks, Doug Nelson ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> *** Save Time & Money *** Outsource Your Database Design & Development at Elance Post Your Project for FREE. Click Here. http://us.click.yahoo.com/RgjnMD/HB0DAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals Question Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 00:39:06 -0800 The short answer is that only the lights needed to display all appropriate indications for a given situation are used. So the question is how do you determine the appropriate set of indications needed for a given situation. That's complicated to outline how to determine the set, but is fairly easy to work backwards and figure out why the set was determined the way it was. The signals in question are (in order mentioned) 10R, 2R, 4R, and 6R. You'll want to have http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/ar.gif open for reference. You'll also want open a copy of the rule book to the signal indication section to see what the aspects look like and what they mean. 10R only needs a horizontal top arm, because it can only display Medium clear, Slow Approach, and Restricting. Medium clear (30mph) is the most favorable indication possible because all routes use the diverging side of switch 3. Medium clear would be given for the route towards 20R on the siding (switch 5 normal). Slow Approach (15mph,prepared to stop at next signal) would be displayed across switch 5 reverse, because its a #10 switch, or if 20R on the siding is displaying a stop indication. Restricting would be displayed if the track to the next signal was occupied. 2R has all three arms in the top head because it can display Clear (maximum authorized speed) and Approach (stop at next signal). These indications would be used when the route contains no diverging movements across a switch (ie straight ahead to 20R). Clear or Approach would be chosen based on the indication on the next signal (20R). Notice the medium clear (30mph) is not possible because any diverging routes are across #10 switches, and require 15mph. Therefore Slow Approach (15mph, prepare to stop at next signal) would be used for diverging moves here. Approach Slow (slowdown to 15mph for next signal) is theoretically possible, but there is no way to determine if it was wired to display this indication. It would be proper to use it if 20R was displaying Slow Approach (15mph), but often Approach was used instead of Approach Slow. 4R has two arms in the top head. Clear is not possible here because ... shoot ... someone help me out ... I was on a roll. 16R (the next signal) appears to be able to display Approach Medium (slowdown to 30mph for next signal) because of the bottom vertical. Medium Clear (30mph) would be the only other possibility but doesn't seem appropriate because there's no diverging routes possible. So 4R should be able to display at least the same as 16R if not better (Approach Medium or Clear which would be better), but the diagram shows neither of these are possible. This 4R, 16R, 20R sequence is beyond me. We'll have to seek the advice of someone who actually does signals for a living. Or quite possibly the drawing is wrong. Can you check your photo to see if maybe there is a vertical on the bottom head of 4R? A bottom vertical would make sense on 4R allowing Approach Medium. Anyway, on to 6R. 6R has no diverging routes, however, the stopping distance to 18R is not sufficient to display approach. In general, to display Approach (stop at next signal), the train must be able to get stopped from (at least) 30mph. Since 667+75 feet to 18R is insufficient to stop a 30mph train, this signal displays SlowApproach instead when 18R is at Stop. Slow Approach only requires the train to get stopped from 15mph because the train must not be exceeding 15mph when it passes the Slow Approach. For completeness, note that 18R displays the same indications as 6R for the same reasons, 16R I can't explain, and 20R on Frt#1 displays the same indications as 10R for the same reasons. I'll pose the 4R, 16R, 20R sequence to the PRRSignaling list where there are signaling professionals. John -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Nelson To: PRR@yahoogroups.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Monday, April 01, 2002 11:11 PM Subject: [PRR] Signals Question >Pennsy signals are a subject of much mystery to many of us. I wonder if >there is a simple answer to the following question? In a 1956 photo of the >signal bridge that sat about a quarter mile west of AR Tower (Gallitzen) >there are four tracks and four targets (facing eastbound trains), each with >a different arrangement of lights. > >The southernmost track signal (#0 Track on the diagram) shows only three >horizontal lights: > >o o o > >The next signal (Siding #1 on the diagram) has the full 7 lights: > > o o >o o o > o o > > >The next track (labeled #1 Track Ewd. Frt.) has 5 lights with the following >pattern: > > o >o o o > o > > >The northernmost track (labeled #2 Track Ewd. Pass.) has 5 lights with the >following pattern: > > o >o o o > o > > >The question is why are these all different? Why no approach and no proceed >on some tracks? Seems like a simple question, I suspect the answer is not >so simple, but any help is appreciated. > >Thanks, >Doug Nelson > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 07:27:18 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Listers, I have been asked to be one of the open house layout tours for the convention in Camp Hill, Pa. this year in May. I had accepted and the crew and I are in the process of doing some cosmetic improvements involving scenery. For those of you that visited the Cornwall Railroad during the 2000 convention there will be several new items. 1. I have installed a signaling system using Bruce Chubb's Computer Model Railroad Interface. (about 75% complete) 2. I have rebuilt the trackwork in the Lebanon Yard area and double-ended the yard. 3. There are two new industrial areas on the layout, Colebrook and Calcite Quarry. 4. Mock-ups and pictures of the prototype Cornwall Mines crusher are located at the Cornwall mine area. The area will be extensively remodeled later this year to actually include a model of the crusher to more closely represent the prototype. 5. The infamous Gate at the entrance of the layoutis being replaced with a drop-in bridge. Humidity and temperature changes have required this change to improve reliability. 6. I have added a dispatcher's desk out of the layout area. My dispatcher, Steve Mallery, can follow train movements via a graphic CTC display on the main computer that controls the signaling system and now throw switches using a laptop through the Loconet. If anyone from the committee can contact me, I would appreciate it. I have not yet heard from anyone regarding my participation beyond the original request from Jerry. People will need maps to my home or at least instructions. I'd prefer they were distributed by the organizers as I can't respond to all requests for directions. Regards and I hope to see many of you in May. I will only be participating in the Friday tour, the lack of visitors on the Sunday tour has prompted this decision. Only 4 people showed up on Sunday during the 2000 convention versus the 75 visitors I had on Friday night between 7PM and 9PM. Cheers, Nick Kulp http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 08:03:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention From: Jerry Britton On 4/2/02 7:27 AM, Nick Kulp (caseyj@igateway.com) wrote: > If anyone from the committee can contact me, I would appreciate it. I have not > yet heard from anyone regarding my participation beyond the original request > from Jerry. People will need maps to my home or at least instructions. I'd > prefer > they were distributed by the organizers as I can't respond to all requests for > directions. > No alarms needed. All is well. Brochures will be complete this week. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] "P" Company Stantions Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 13:42:15 +0000 Gentlemen: I am looking for some brass bridge railing/stantions for an upcoming project. I believe that the "P" Co. imported some, both the 2 and 3 rail versions. Right now I am looking for the two rail version, about 250 scale feet. Does anyone know where these are still being sold? TIA Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 12:57:41 -0500 From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals Question On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 12:39:06AM -0800, John Cooper wrote: > The short answer is that only the lights needed to display all > appropriate indications for a given situation are used. > > So the question is how do you determine the appropriate set of > indications needed for a given situation. That's complicated to outline how > to determine the set, but is fairly easy to work backwards and figure out why > the set was determined the way it was. Actually, I'll disagree with John slightly. I think it can be quite difficult in some situations to "get in the signal [design] engineer's head" based on an interlocking diagram alone. Observing from the field gives you essentially the same info that you get from an interlocking diagram. In places where you have straight trackage and repetitive, uncomplicated interlockings, this may be easy. (But note that I said may be, not is.) In places like AR, it can be quite difficult because of the curves, tunnels, and hills producing limited sighting distances; and to that add the very complicated trackage arrangements. > The signals in question are (in order mentioned) 10R, 2R, 4R, and 6R. > You'll want to have http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/ar.gif > open for reference. You'll also want open a copy of the rule book to the > signal indication section to see what the aspects look like and what they > mean. The PRR rulebook can be found at http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Bor1956/ > 10R only needs a horizontal top arm [...] > 2R has all three arms in the top head [...] > 4R has two arms in the top head. Clear is not possible here because ... > shoot ... someone help me out ... I was on a roll. I think I can help. Briefly, it's because of the short-block signaling (if that's the correct term) needed because of the short block following [in advance of] the 16R signal. Blocks shorter than braking distance require some subtle changes in the signal aspect sequence - something I have had the opportunity to observe closely at the former HUDSON interlocking (may he rest in peace) near me, but have not had the chance to observe at AR. To flesh this out some: observe from the interlocking diagram that the distance from 4R to 16R is only 742 feet. This is much less than braking distance. If 16R were at Stop, a train going full speed would have a hard time stopping before reaching 16R. The solution at HUDSON, which had a similar short block, was that the signal in the rear, analogous to AR's 4R signal, would show Slow Approach, not Approach, and that the signal in the rear of _that_ one (analogous to AR's 14R signal) would be the one showing Approach. But this does not answer why 4R has no Clear aspect. Look at the diagram again and notice that there are 742 feet from 4R to 16R, and only 932 additional feet, for a total of 1674 feet, to 20R. At 20R the track goes through the curved side of a #15 switch. This distance is still, I suspect, much less than braking distance. Thus, given the distance, 4R must prepare the engineer not only for the portion of the interlocking directly in front of AR tower, but also for the reversed #21 switch. So, if a route were cleared the entire way through the interlocking via #1 track, I would suspect that the aspects would be as follows: 20R - Medium Clear 16R - Approach Medium 4R - Approach Note I am speculating. It would be nice to find someone that has the aspect tree for this interlocking to confirm. Why not Approach Medium at 4R? It _could_ be used, but the diagram indicates no vertical position on the lower arm of 4R. Why would it have not been put in? I suspect so that the same aspect is not repeated on 2 subsequent signals - something which signal engineers try to avoid. > 16R (the next signal) > appears to be able to display Approach Medium (slowdown to 30mph for next > signal) because of the bottom vertical. Medium Clear (30mph) would be the > only other possibility but doesn't seem appropriate because there's no > diverging routes possible. So 4R should be able to display at least the > same as 16R if not better (Approach Medium or Clear which would be better), > but the diagram shows neither of these are possible. This 4R, 16R, 20R > sequence is beyond me. We'll have to seek the advice of someone who > actually does signals for a living. Or quite possibly the drawing is wrong. > Can you check your photo to see if maybe there is a vertical on the bottom > head of 4R? A bottom vertical would make sense on 4R allowing Approach > Medium. > Anyway, on to 6R. 6R has no diverging routes, however, the stopping > distance to 18R is not sufficient to display approach. In general, to > display Approach (stop at next signal), the train must be able to get > stopped from (at least) 30mph. Since 667+75 feet to 18R is insufficient to > stop a 30mph train, this signal displays SlowApproach instead when 18R is at > Stop. > Slow Approach only requires the train to get stopped from 15mph because the > train must not be exceeding 15mph when it passes the Slow Approach. And this is very similar to what I described above for HUDSON. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 11:57:56 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Re: Signals Question From: "Douglas Nelson" On closer examination, I now see that there are lower signals on the bridge, but without the targets, making them hard to pick out. For those interested, I have posted the photo on the PRRsignaling (yahoo groups) photo page (I could not seem to post it to the PRR-FAX photo section??). Thanks for the several responses. Doug. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 15:15:29 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Signals Question This raises another signals question I have always had. Why does the lower signal never have a target background, or at best only a background behind the "green" aspect? It seems that is the easiest way to tell a PRR position light from a N&W one. The N&W seemed to use full targets behind both. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Douglas Nelson wrote: > On closer examination, I now see that there are lower signals on the bridge, > but without the targets, making them hard to pick out. > > For those interested, I have posted the photo on the PRRsignaling (yahoo > groups) photo page (I could not seem to post it to the PRR-FAX photo > section??). > > Thanks for the several responses. > > Doug. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 16:33:48 -0500 From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Signals Question On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 03:15:29PM -0500, Andrew S. Miller wrote: > This raises another signals question I have always had. Why does the lower > signal never have a target background, or at best only a background behind the > "green" aspect? It seems that is the easiest way to tell a PRR position light > from a N&W one. The N&W seemed to use full targets behind both. PRR practice varied on this. I do not know of any PRR documentation stating general rules for when to use what target, but this does not mean such does not exist. >From my own person observation I can give you this much: 1) Interlocking signals often had full targets for both the upper and lower arm. (Note that the full target for the lower arm was not a circle, but had cut-outs on both sides.) This is particularly true west of signals on signal bridges. 2) Distant signals (the signal immediately in the rear of ("before") the home signal) usually had a full target for the upper arm and only the narrow vertical target on the lower arm. 3) In electrified territory, where signals were often placed on the vertical catenary post, the lower arm often had only the narrow vertical target, not the full lower target with the cut off sides. Speculation: this might have been done because of clearance reasons. 4) In many other situations, there seemed (to me) to be no rhyme or reason. I have seen lower arms with: only a vertical | or diagonal / or \ aspect and with a full target a vertical and 1 diagonal aspect, but with only a narrow vertical target all 3 aspects | / \, but with only a narrow vertical target. 5) I do not ever recall seeing a single lower marker light with any sort of target around it. 6) There were only 2 locations to my knowledge where the upper arm had no target at all, and both of these were special signals with short inter-lamp spacing due to the cramped quarters. 7) I have never PRR employ the N&W practice of using a narrow target, placed horizontally, on the upper arm of a signal. N&W often did this on signals whose upper arm only had a horizontal aspect. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John Cooper" Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals Question Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:52:31 -0800 -----Original Message----- From: Mark Bej To: John Cooper Cc: Douglas Nelson ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 9:57 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Signals Question >On Tue, Apr 02, 2002 at 12:39:06AM -0800, John Cooper wrote: > >> So the question is how do you determine the appropriate set of >> indications needed for a given situation. That's complicated to outline how >> to determine the set, but is fairly easy to work backwards and figure out why >> the set was determined the way it was. > >Actually, I'll disagree with John slightly. I think it can be quite difficult >in some situations to "get in the signal [design] engineer's head" based on >an interlocking diagram alone. Observing from the field gives you essentially >the same info that you get from an interlocking diagram. In places where you >have straight trackage and repetitive, uncomplicated interlockings, this may >be easy. (But note that I said may be, not is.) In places like AR, it can be >quite difficult because of the curves, tunnels, and hills producing limited >sighting distances; and to that add the very complicated trackage arrangements. > Point taken, as I discovered with the 4R,16R,20R sequence. >So, if a route were cleared the entire way through the interlocking via >#1 track, I would suspect that the aspects would be as follows: > 20R - Medium Clear > 16R - Approach Medium > 4R - Approach I assume an Approach Medium in advance of that at 14R? This is a very unusual progression. Surely there must be some engineers on-line somewhere that can confirm this. And what about the diverging route over 7 reverse? As a #15 switch, a Medium Clear would seem appropriate, but there is no bottom vertical. I checked the photo Doug posted and indeed the bottom vertical is not present. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2002 17:12:32 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Signals Question As an additional note, I have noticed that there is no PRR aspect (other than interlocking) in which the lower head shows "red". That makes the green-only, and the clipped sides targets possible. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR X30 Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:21:34 -0500 I know of 1 page 34 of Bill Caloroso's Elmira Branch book. Car was 1 specially made for the Lafarge Fire Truck Company. I didn't see any in the 3 color guides but it was a quick flip. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: Earl Myers To: PRR Talk Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 1:24 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR X30 Anybody know if a good picture of this Fire Engine carrying boxcar exists?? Earl Myers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR X30 Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:57:42 -0500 Isn't it the American LaFrance company? There's also a photo of the X30 lettered "Experimental" in Wayner's Cars of the Pennsy book... For a diagram and a tiny bit more info, see my web page at: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=X30 Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Brian J Carlson Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 6:22 PM To: Earl Myers Cc: PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR X30 I know of 1 page 34 of Bill Caloroso's Elmira Branch book. Car was 1 specially made for the Lafarge Fire Truck Company. I didn't see any in the 3 color guides but it was a quick flip. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: Earl Myers To: PRR Talk Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 1:24 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR X30 Anybody know if a good picture of this Fire Engine carrying boxcar exists?? Earl Myers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] USRA 0-6-0 Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:32:32 -0500

Has there been any word on when these will actually be out? I heard that there was an undecorated one at the Hobby Show last weekend. Also, has anyone heard wether the Pennsy version will be in DGLE and have the Pennsy head light and generator placement?
Thanks,
Eric
 
--- Eric Lauterbach
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
 

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:43:58 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA 0-6-0 In a message dated 4/2/02 10:26:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, ealauterbach@earthlink.net writes: << Also, has anyone heard wether the Pennsy version will be in DGLE and have the Pennsy head light and generator placement? >> More important question is whether a PRR version will have the standard Pennsy smoke door - Photographic evidence indicates that the USRA headlight and smokebox was very short lived - If they ever even entered servivce that way (photos I have show a standard PRR electric headlamp on what looks to be an oil headlamp bracket) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA 0-6-0 Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:16:40 -0500 List: What about the running board ridge on the cab side above the old USRA running board? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 10:43 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] USRA 0-6-0 > In a message dated 4/2/02 10:26:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, > ealauterbach@earthlink.net writes: > > << Also, has anyone heard wether the Pennsy version will be in DGLE and have > the Pennsy head light and generator placement? >> > > More important question is whether a PRR version will have the standard > Pennsy smoke door - Photographic evidence indicates that the USRA headlight > and smokebox was very short lived - If they ever even entered servivce that > way (photos I have show a standard PRR electric headlamp on what looks to be > an oil headlamp bracket) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR X30 Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 23:21:12 -0500 Thanks, Bill, my bad, I should have read the complete caption. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Laird" To: "Brian J Carlson" Cc: "Talk PRR" Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 7:37 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR X30 > The company that built the fire trucks was "American LaFrance". > > Bill Laird > (Firefighter, many long years ago) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian J Carlson" > To: "Earl Myers" > Cc: "PRR Talk" > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 5:21 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR X30 > > > > I know of 1 page 34 of Bill Caloroso's Elmira Branch book. Car was 1 > > specially made for the Lafarge Fire Truck Company. I didn't see any in the > 3 > > color guides but it was a quick flip. > > > > Brian > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Earl Myers > > To: PRR Talk > > Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 1:24 AM > > Subject: [PRR] PRR X30 > > > > > > Anybody know if a good picture of this Fire Engine carrying boxcar > > exists?? > > Earl Myers > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "dfc PRR 7002" Subject: Re: [PRR] Rau Display at The Library Company Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 06:05:00 -0500 The Rau exhibit was well worth the trip. After a drive across the commonwealth, my wife and I took the Media Local into Suburban Station and walked a few short blocks to The Library Company. To be able to see these 18x22 original images was breathtaking. The photograph of Johnstown after the flood was very haunting as several buildings that are still there today were very noticable. The clarity of the images was well worth the visit. Thank you to Dan Cupper for the recommendation. I cannot wait to read the book. On a side note, has anyone else noticed that the new Kimmel Center for the Performing Arts looks a lot like the old train shed at the extinct Broad Street Station? DF Cramer--Teacher-Trombonist-Conductor-Historian www.geocities.com/armconband _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 06:25:50 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Derailment Near Altoona, PA From: Jerry Britton Don't know if you've heard about this, but I got a call from Bill Lewis (president, Northern Central Chapter PRRT&HS) last evening, who heard from Tim Treaster in Lewistown. Apparently they are building a new road in Altoona that parallels the right of way from 24th Street to the Brickyard Crossing. Word has it that a grader rolled over and into a westbound coal train. This train, in turn, knocked into an eastbound truck train, and it into yet a third train. System was totally closed as of last evening! On 4/2/02 7:46 PM, NS Service Alert at (owner-alert@nscorp.com) wrote: > > Norfolk Southern Service Alert > > Derailment Near Altoona, PA > > April 2, 2002 > > A Norfolk Southern train derailed 10 miles west of Altoona, PA, > Tuesday, April 2, 2002, blocking all mainlines. > > Efforts are currently underway to clear and repair the tracks. > Traffic moving through this area may incur delays. Updates > will be posted as details are made available. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SHanlon@dnr.state.md.us Subject: [PRR] NS on fire at Altoona Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:31:59 -0500 http://www.wtajtv.com/pixpage.html -steve hanlon ########################################### This message has been scanned for viruses. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Altoona wreck Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 16:47:24 +0000 This link will take you to a brief article on the event. There is a second page of pictures you can access from the link. Except for the injury it doesn't appear to be too serious an event. www.geocities.com/cprg44/00NP/nws.html ------------------------------------------------ Get the award winning ISP, AT&T WorldNet Service http://download.att.net/webtag ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 08:52:02 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Derailment Near Altoona, PA --- Jerry Britton wrote: [...] > Apparently they are building a new road in Altoona > that parallels the right > of way from 24th Street to the Brickyard Crossing. > Word has it that a grader > rolled over and into a westbound coal train. This > train, in turn, knocked > into an eastbound truck train, and it into yet a > third train. That is what I heard as of WTAJ noon news (2 April). However, the 11:00 pm news sounded more like: 1) Container/Trailer train derailed, cause not known 2) Coal trains (both empty) derailed by collision with cars from first train 3) Cars from one coal train fell over and around the backhoe, trapping the operator As noted in another post, www.wtajtv.com has several photos, some of them taken by a doctor on the medevac helicopter. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Derailment Near Altoona, PA Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 11:06:34 -0600 No disruption in service would have ocurred if Conrail had not abandoned Muleshoe! -----Original Message----- From: robert netzlof [mailto:wb3iqe@rocketmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 10:52 AM To: Jerry Britton; PRR-Talk; Conrail-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Derailment Near Altoona, PA --- Jerry Britton wrote: [...] > Apparently they are building a new road in Altoona > that parallels the right > of way from 24th Street to the Brickyard Crossing. > Word has it that a grader > rolled over and into a westbound coal train. This > train, in turn, knocked > into an eastbound truck train, and it into yet a > third train. That is what I heard as of WTAJ noon news (2 April). However, the 11:00 pm news sounded more like: 1) Container/Trailer train derailed, cause not known 2) Coal trains (both empty) derailed by collision with cars from first train 3) Cars from one coal train fell over and around the backhoe, trapping the operator As noted in another post, www.wtajtv.com has several photos, some of them taken by a doctor on the medevac helicopter. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 09:11:03 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] The derailment near Altoona WTAJ just (12:05 3 April) aired an interview with a guy wearing an NS hard hat. He said: 1) A portion of the hillside gave way, dumping rocks and dirt into the side of an empty coal train. 2) Cars from the empty coal train "bulged out" into the container train on the next track. 3) Cars from the container train, in turn, pushed cars of a loaded coal train on the third track off the track. The pictures in the background of all this showed several backhoes moving dirt and rocks. Several NS TopGons sitting clear of the track, one on its side looking very burned. I heard no definite statement, but thought I saw at least one track clear through the site. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 12:12:10 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Derailment Near Altoona, PA From: Jerry Britton On 4/3/02 12:06 PM, Cadwell, Marvin L (cadwelml@bp.com) wrote: > No disruption in service would have ocurred if Conrail had not abandoned > Muleshoe! > ...or kept a fourth track in service (debatable). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 09:12:27 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Derailment Near Altoona, PA --- "Cadwell, Marvin L" wrote: > No disruption in service would have ocurred if > Conrail had not abandoned > Muleshoe! That thought did cross my mind. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 12:30:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona wreck --part1_157.badf928.29dc9623_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/3/02 8:59:18 AM Pacific Standard Time, ndbprr@att.net writes: > Except for the injury it doesn't > appear to be too serious an event. > Injury or no injury. . . Any accident of this magnitude that shuts down the entire three track main line of a major railroad is a "serious event" ! Jon S. --part1_157.badf928.29dc9623_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/3/02 8:59:18 AM Pacific Standard Time, ndbprr@att.net writes:


Except for the injury it doesn't
appear to be too serious an event.


Injury or no injury. . . Any accident of this magnitude that shuts down the entire three track main line of a major railroad is a "serious event" !

Jon S. --part1_157.badf928.29dc9623_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 12:33:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Derailment Near Altoona, PA --part1_f8.193fc809.29dc96f0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/3/02 9:27:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > ...or kept a fourth track in service (debatable). > Murphys Law says... If there still was a forth track still in service we would have a forth train involved in this mess ! ! ;-) Jon S. --part1_f8.193fc809.29dc96f0_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/3/02 9:27:09 AM Pacific Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:


...or kept a fourth track in service (debatable).


Murphys Law says... If there still was a forth track still in service we would have a forth train involved in this mess ! !  ;-)

Jon S. --part1_f8.193fc809.29dc96f0_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SHanlon@dnr.state.md.us Subject: [PRR] of Muleshoe Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 12:34:01 -0500 >:No disruption in service would have ocurred if Conrail had >:not abandoned Muleshoe! we all know the reasons behind CR abandoning Muleshoe. Sure traffic would be kept moving, but a bottleneck would have occurred at the wye and thus the railroad would have been jammed to the hilt. they would have had to stage the trains on the main so the helpers would never have to deadhead up or down the mountian blocking the route. if they left the Holidaysburg and Peterburg branch in place, they would have had an easier time of getting eastbound loads out of the way. PRR had a great deal of redundant lines, but they were not there to keep trains moving, they existed in a time when there were line-side customers. -steve hanlon ########################################### This message has been scanned for viruses. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona wreck Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 17:52:52 +0000 I didn't say it wasn't serious. I said it wasn't too serious. I doubt if the clean up will take very long to get at least two of the tracks back in service in a short period of time. No engines were involved. There doesn't appear to be any signaling or other infrastucture damaged. There were no hazardous materials involved. Etc. The costs should be minimal for this type of event. Yes it shuts down the hill while they clean it up but it could have been a lot worse. The train coming down grade could have piled a lot more cars into the event. So it remains more of an incovenience and delay then something that is going to require days and millions to repair. It is a minor wreck compared to the potential. They will shove the cars down the embankment and have things rolling again in fairly short order. The cost of the wreck and this is the first one to shut down the hill that I remember is probably far less than the cost would have been to maintain Muleshoe for all these years it has been gone. > In a message dated 4/3/02 8:59:18 AM Pacific Standard Time, ndbprr@att.net > writes: > > > > Except for the injury it doesn't > > appear to be too serious an event. > > > > Injury or no injury. . . Any accident of this magnitude that shuts down the > entire three track main line of a major railroad is a "serious event" ! > > Jon S. ------------------------------------------------ Get the award winning ISP, AT&T WorldNet Service http://download.att.net/webtag ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Al Buchan Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 14:16:33 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Roberta Adams It is with much regret that I advise you that PRRT&HS President Dick Adams' wife Roberta, has passed away. A service will be held at 11 AM at The Pine Street Presbyterian Church, 310 North Third Street, Harrisburg, PA on Saturday 6 April 2002. (717-238-9304) Al ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Outsource Your Web Design & Development with Elance Save Time & Money Post Your Project for FREE http://us.click.yahoo.com/jXNj8C/O.zDAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 03 Apr 2002 14:16:33 -0500 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] Roberta Adams It is with much regret that I advise you that PRRT&HS President Dick Adams' wife Roberta, has passed away. A service will be held at 11 AM at The Pine Street Presbyterian Church, 310 North Third Street, Harrisburg, PA on Saturday 6 April 2002. (717-238-9304) Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 21:24:28 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona wreck When I got to the area around 1:30pm, track 1 was passable and traffic was moving. Track 2 was cleared, with a speed restriction and a guard posted, at 2:02pm. The "last" westbound on track 1 cleared at 2:09pm. The speed restriction was from milepost 239.0 to 240.0, and nothing was visible from the road aside from Hulcher's trailers, which were parked at the brickyard crossing. While I was there, they brought all their equipment out and started loading it. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 21:42:22 -0600 Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR those other E-8s From: Beth Caples The other unit #5898 was sold to the St. Louis Iron Mountain and Southern RR near Cape Girardeau, MO. I saw the unit there in Nov. of 2000 and it still looked "intact". It had surface rust and was not polished like I saw it when it ran on the Blue Mountain and Reading RR. It was a sad sight but from what I understand the new owners do have future plans for the loco. John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 21:42:22 -0600 Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR those other E-8s From: Beth Caples The other unit #5898 was sold to the St. Louis Iron Mountain and Southern RR near Cape Girardeau, MO. I saw the unit there in Nov. of 2000 and it still looked "intact". It had surface rust and was not polished like I saw it when it ran on the Blue Mountain and Reading RR. It was a sad sight but from what I understand the new owners do have future plans for the loco. John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 23:59:50 EST Subject: [PRR] New PRR decals Just a heads up . Some of the new PRR decals I mentioned which were at the East Coast Hobby show have hit the streets. The 87-21 diesel set and the 87-1210 cabin car set are at hobby shops this week. I picked up my sets at Rule's in Manheim Pa this afternoon. ---------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 08:21:03 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Model Room Howdy Y'all, 28 modeling days to the annual meeting! I hope you modelers are working on something to bring! In keeping with the idea of bringing models that "match" some of the presentations, I opened a Westerfield GRa kit last night...don't know if that one will make it to the meeting! One other thing...please let me know OFF list (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) if 1) You are planning on shipping models to the meeting and 2) if you would need a "return" shipping pickup at the hotel. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 07:34:04 -0800 (PST) From: Benjamin Sullivan Subject: [PRR] BR&P style interlocking tower in Buzzard's Bay, MA (?) Hi all, In a thread from a few months back there was a discussion about the concrete, "pagoda-style" roof interlocking towers located on the BR&P (Buffalo, Rochester & Pittsburgh). I think I stumbled onto a photo of a similar tower, this one located in Buzzard's Bay, MA - ex. NYNH&H RR Co. http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?200203050912292889.jpg:byrail::byrail%3A3%3ACape_Cod_Central I haven't seen too many of these, then again I haven't been researching this, just happened upon it. Would this make #5 on your list Bob? (See message below) Ben Sullivan PRRT&HS #6998 Date: Saturday, December 29, 2001 at 9:41 PM (show header) From: robert netzlof (wb3iqe@rocketmail.com) Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Interlocking Tower No reason it should, for it was built by the Buffalo, Rochester and Pittsburgh Railway. It is one of 4 that I know of: 1) C&M Junction, a couple miles SE of DuBois. 2) The one you saw. 3) About 12 miles north of DuBois, where the Erie-owned West Clarion RR left/joined the BR&P. 4) Ashford, NY where the Buffalo and Rochester lines diverged. There were other BR&P towers, but I know of no others of that design. The BR&P main line was extensively re-located/re-built in the first decade of the 20th century and those towers date from that time. The B&O bought the BR&P in 1931. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 11:51:19 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Updated Story Behind Derailment at Altoona From: Jerry Britton What follows is the most thorough explanation I have seen yet about the Altoona wreck. Pictures can be seen at the following but it takes awhilte to download. http://www.wtajtv.com/pixpage.html MAJOR DERAILMENT BLOCKS TRIPLE MAIN IN ALTOONA, PA: What may have started as a routine day for one Norfolk Southern maintenance worker, ended in a nightmare for him and the railroad company as a whole. A large backhoe tractor was working along the railroad's busy triple-track Pittsburgh Line, just west of Altoona, Pennsylvania, when it allegedly slid off an embankment and into the side of westbound empty hopper train 593-01 on number three track. The 3,794-ton, 128-car train experienced an emergency brake application after the tractor impacted the train and derailed thirteen hoppers at 16:30 EST yesterday afternoon. Train 593-01 cars derailed into the side of double-stack train 20G-02, operating eastbound on number two track, derailing fifteen double-stack well cars and sparking a fire. Simultaneously, 12,730-ton, 95-car loaded coal train 506-02, operating eastbound on number one track, was impacted by derailing double-stack wells and sent one coal hopper off the rails. Fire from the wreckage quickly spread to the adjacent hillside, ridden with dry brush. Wreckage blocked all three tracks of the Pittsburgh Line, just east of the McGarvey Signal at milepost 239.7. The backhoe operator was trapped for a period of time, however escaped serious injury and spent the night in an Altoona hospital. None of the train crews were injured in the mishap. Two divisions of Hulcher Wrecking Services were dispatched to the scene and were expected to arrive before 01:00 EST. Acccording to Norfolk Southern, number one track would be back in service as soon as the single derailed coal hopper was rerailed and train 506-01 cleared from the line. Trackage was not damaged under the wrecked coal hopper and officials expected to have trains rolling through the area by early this morning, albeit with slow orders in place. Firefighters on the ground were assisted by helicopters dropping water to help extinguish the mountain fire that consumed several acres. Railroad crews were expected to replace at least eighty feet of trackage on number two track and more than 120-feet of trackage on number three track. Crews from Hulcher and the railroad were constructing a new access road along the Pittsburgh Line between 24th Street and the Mill Run Road (Brickyard) grade crossing. Amtrak canceled service between Altoona and Pittsburgh, busing passengers around the wreckage. Norfolk Southern held dozens of trains on either side of the wreckage, staging them for movement through the wreck site today. An investigation is under way to determine how the tractor wound up fouling the right-of-way and the circumstances behind the derailment. (Information courtesy of Kevein Burkholder/Eastern Rail News ) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Altoona wreck Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 17:12:12 +0000 In looking at the pictures the empty westbound hoppers appear to be silver. Would that make them Maintenance of way hoppers or ballast cars? I am surprised that up grade hoppers would derail in the numbers they did. I would have thought that the application of brakes and uphill drag would have stopped them pretty quickly unless they were moving at a pretty good clip. I also wonder if the vibration of three trains is what caused the backhoe to start sliding? Norm Bell ------------------------------------------------ Get the award winning ISP, AT&T WorldNet Service http://download.att.net/webtag ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 12:42:57 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] BR&P style interlocking tower in Buzzard's Bay, MA (?) This style of tower was very common on the NH. Buzzards Bay is just one of them. Many more exist on the corridor. The B&M had at least one that I have heard of. I was surprised to hear that the prototype for the Ertl model was the BR&P. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Benjamin Sullivan wrote: > Hi all, > > In a thread from a few months back there was a discussion about the concrete, > "pagoda-style" roof interlocking towers located on the BR&P (Buffalo, Rochester > & Pittsburgh). I think I stumbled onto a photo of a similar tower, this one > located in Buzzard's Bay, MA - ex. NYNH&H RR Co. > > http://photos.nerail.org/showpic/?200203050912292889.jpg:byrail::byrail%3A3%3ACape_Cod_Central > > I haven't seen too many of these, then again I haven't been researching this, > just happened upon it. Would this make #5 on your list Bob? (See message below) > > Ben Sullivan > PRRT&HS #6998 > > Date: > Saturday, December 29, 2001 at 9:41 PM (show header) > > From: > robert netzlof (wb3iqe@rocketmail.com) > > Subject: > Re: [PRR] Pennsy Interlocking Tower > > No reason it should, for it was built by the Buffalo, > Rochester and Pittsburgh Railway. It is one of 4 that > I know of: > > 1) C&M Junction, a couple miles SE of DuBois. > 2) The one you saw. > 3) About 12 miles north of DuBois, where the > Erie-owned West Clarion RR left/joined the BR&P. > 4) Ashford, NY where the Buffalo and Rochester lines > diverged. > > There were other BR&P towers, but I know of no others > of that design. The BR&P main line was extensively > re-located/re-built in the first decade of the 20th > century and those towers date from that time. The B&O > bought the BR&P in 1931. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:11:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona wreck In a message dated 4/4/02 11:18:56 AM Central Standard Time, ndbprr@att.net writes: << In looking at the pictures the empty westbound hoppers appear to be silver. Would that make them Maintenance of way hoppers or ballast cars? >> Pictures are pretty dim, but look like regular unit train coal hopper/gons to me. I think these were originally made from aluminum. Are other materials such as unpainted alloy steel used now as well? Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 13:17:12 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Rt. 39 Bridge Over RoW in Harrisburg From: Jerry Britton Route 39 (aka Lingoestown Road) crosses the ex-PRR main line just below Rockville and about 1/4 mile inland from the river. Today the bridge is a typical steel/concrete structure. Does anyone know what kind of bridge was here prior...back in the 1950's days? I am making the assumption that Route 39 was in existence then, perhaps not by that name. On my layout I have compressed the distance from State Street in Harrisburg to Route 39 to "zero". I am considering using a view block through the layout with the corresponding bridges on either side. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Altoona wreck Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:48:08 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" To: Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 3:47 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona wreck > Folks, > > It looks to me from viewing the TV Station's web pictures, that the cars > derailed were NS's "Top Gon" coal gondolas made from hoppers. NS Painted > these gray to insure they were not mistaken for hoppers at the mines. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 1:11 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona wreck > > > > In a message dated 4/4/02 11:18:56 AM Central Standard Time, > ndbprr@att.net > > writes: > > > > << In looking at the pictures the empty westbound hoppers > > appear to be silver. Would that make them Maintenance > > of way hoppers or ballast cars? >> > > > > Pictures are pretty dim, but look like regular unit train coal hopper/gons > to > > me. I think these were originally made from aluminum. Are other materials > > such as unpainted alloy steel used now as well? > > > > Bob Zoeller > > > > Bob Zoeller > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 05 Apr 2002 10:02:34 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] RE: Altoona wreck/NS hoppers Reply to: RE: Altoona wreck/NS hoppers Norm Bell wrote: "In looking at the pictures the empty westbound hoppers appear to be silver. Would that make them Maintenance of way hoppers or ballast cars?" I believe these are NS "Top Gon" coal gondolas. Not for MOW or Ballast service, but coal cars. Not sure what color NS paints their MOW equipment. According to this site: http://www.krunk.org/~joeshaw/pics/ns/coal-gon/ they *are* aluminum. I thought Top Gons were conversions from steel hoppers and just repainted, but apparently not. Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 10:28:30 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Altoona wreck/NS hoppers --part1_70.1aabd0c1.29df1c9e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 04/05/2002 10:09:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, ddrew@channing-bete.com writes: > they *are* aluminum. I thought Top Gons were conversions > from steel hoppers and just repainted, but apparently not. > > Doug, If you get close enough and can read the fine print on the side of the Top Gons, you will see a "Rebodied" date. Most of these were rebodied in the 80's and early 90's. The original cars were 60's vintage. Rich Orr --part1_70.1aabd0c1.29df1c9e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 04/05/2002 10:09:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, ddrew@channing-bete.com writes:


they *are* aluminum. I thought Top Gons were conversions
from steel hoppers and just repainted, but apparently not.



Doug,

If you get close enough and can read the fine print on the side of the Top Gons, you will see a "Rebodied" date.  Most of these were rebodied in the 80's and early 90's.  The original cars were 60's vintage.  

Rich Orr --part1_70.1aabd0c1.29df1c9e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 11:34:23 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Web Hosting From: Jerry Britton The Internet costs of providing railroad web and list services through Desktop Solutions are offset by financial support from advertisers and companies that have their commercial web hosting via the system. We only solicit enough commercial web hosting business to offset our costs. Though there is no jeopardy for current services, we recently have lost two of our commercial hosting customers. They have grown to a point that they are both taking their systems in-house. Therefore, I am looking to replace this lost income with new hosting customers. If your company has a need for hosting, we offer several plans, from a Basic plan to a full eCommerce plan. We are also introducing a new Entry Level eCommerce Plan. It has a limit of 100 products and customer payments are received via PayPal only. For more information, please see http://www.dsop.com/webhosting.ws4d Please contact sales@dsop.com off-list for more information. Thank you. I repeat, current railroad list and web services are not at risk. Unlike Yahoo, we are not inserting ads into list mail, we are not inserting ads randomly as you search the list archives, and we are not releasing your e-mail address information to e-mail marketers (this happened last week, if you didn't know). With the exception of the sole rotating banner ads that top some web pages, we do not plan any changes. Continue to enjoy! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 11:36:17 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] "The Rockville Limited" From: Jerry Britton For some reason, this list member did not wish to post direct... On 4/5/02 11:30 AM, James Kelling (james.kelling@nara.gov) wrote: > You may want to point out to your list members that a PRR boxcar (built 3-51) > sits on the right just after you pass the Conowingo dam overpass. Its shadow > Keystone is barely visible on the side that you will see, but looks better on > the other side. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 11:39:55 -0500 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] of Muleshoe --On Wednesday, April 3, 2002 12:34 -0500 SHanlon@dnr.state.md.us wrote: > >> :No disruption in service would have ocurred if Conrail had >> :not abandoned Muleshoe! > > PRR had a great deal of redundant lines, but they were not there to keep > trains moving, they existed in a time when there were line-side customers. ---------------- A couple observations that may, if you wish, be taken as questions needing an answer/reply: 1) The paper mill (now just an envelop making plant) at Williamsburg on the Little Juniata and the small stone quarry a few miles east of Hollidaysburg were hardly justification enough to construct the high fill and miles of winding grade through subsistence farming and hunt-for-food country that is the Petersburg cut-off. 2) I thought the Petersburg cut-off was constructed specifically to allow through traffic of a bulk-tonnage nature to bypass Altoona congestion. 3) The geniuses in the Main Line of Public Works built the New Portage line (muleshoe curve and tunnel), not the PRR. 4) I thought that the only reason the PRR/PC maintained the Petersburg cut-off/new portage line as long as it did was as a by-pass. Of course, PC might have kept it going because it was too high and dry to have six feet of roadbed washed out by flooding, thereby justifying abandonment! Vagel Keller Pittsburgh ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SHanlon@dnr.state.md.us Subject: RE: [PRR] of Muleshoe Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 12:09:43 -0500 >:The paper mill (now just an envelop making plant) at >:Williamsburg on the Little Juniata and the small stone quarry a few miles east of >:Hollidaysburg were hardly justification enough to construct the high fill >:and miles of winding grade through subsistence farming and hunt-for-food >:country that is the Petersburg cut-off. >:2) I thought the Petersburg cut-off was constructed >:specifically to allow >:through traffic of a bulk-tonnage nature to bypass Altoona congestion. the "petersburg cut-off" is not a cut-off. it was the original alignment of the main line. the new line was built to tyrone as the cut-off. >:3) The geniuses in the Main Line of Public Works built the >:New Portage line (muleshoe curve and tunnel), not the PRR. correct, but the PRR did use and use it they did. millions of tons were carried over the route to get slow moving coal and empties out of the way of the express trains. >:4) I thought that the only reason the PRR/PC maintained the >:Petersburg cut-off/new portage line as long as it did was as a by-pass. >:Of course, PC might have kept it going because it was too high and dry to >:have six feet of roadbed washed out by flooding, thereby justifying abandonment! late prr/pc did not have the traffic volume and they just didn't use it "as much" or if a train was to be routed south to hollidaysburg/bedford/toward cumberland. -steve ########################################### This message has been scanned for viruses. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson) Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 18:52:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] of Muleshoe Talking to some PRR/PC employees in the Altoona area, the New Portage Branch was kept for mostly westbound ore drags. A PRR dispatcher told me that once a w/b ore train got past SLOPE interlocking, the mainline was down to three tracks because of the slow movement of those trains. Ore trains had to have at least 8 diesels (midtrain,rearend) just to do 15-20mph. In the 1960s, the Pennsy was still using that line for such trains. The first time I visited the Horseshoe/Gallitzin area was in 1975. The line was overgrown with weeds, but PC was still using it. I not sure but i think PC stop using it for ore drags by then. Just locals out of Hollidaysburg. I don't think that the New Portage Branch could handle a 12,000 ton ore train by the mid 70s. The track looked real bad. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: [PRR] Possible virus Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 01:02:46 +0000 Subject: ALERT TO A VIRUS Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:47:03 EST Subject: Virus (FOR THOSE THAT DONT KNOW, "WATCH" STANDS FOR THE WORLD TRADE CENTER......WHICH MAKES THIS VIRUS REALLY DANGEROUS BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL OPEN IT RIGHT AWAY.....THINKING ITS A STORY RELATING TO 9/11.....PLEASE BE CAREFUL....... :) BIGGS TROUBLE !!!! DO NOT OPEN "WATCH Survivor"! It is a virus that will erase your whole "CO" drive. It will come to you in the form of an I-Mail from a familiar person. I repeat, a friend sent it to me, but called and warned me before I opened it. He was not so lucky and now he can't even start his computer! Forward this to everyone in your address book. I would rather receive this 25 times than not at all. If you receive an email called "WATCH Survivor" Do Not Open It. Delete it right away! This virus removes all dynamic link libraries (.dll files) from your computer. ------------------------------------------------ Get the award winning ISP, AT&T WorldNet Service http://download.att.net/webtag ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 20:18:20 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Layout Tours From: "Jerry @ pennsyrr.com" This evening I have finalized the layout tour arrangements for this year's convention. You may view details at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/prrths/. There are six layouts off-site plus one modular layout on-site. Five are HO scale, one is N scale, and one is 1" scale. Four run on Digitrax DCC. One runs on live steam. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@pennsyrr.com http://kc.pennsyrr.com Modeling the PRR in 1954 in N scale -- http//kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2002 21:25:27 EST Subject: [PRR] N.S. Wreek Questions --part1_156.bc661d5.29dfb697_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Two questions about the N.S. wreek of earler this week. One, which direction was the mixed freight on the center track traveling, east or west? And Two, does anyone know if there where any UPS containers or trailers mixed into the train? Any help would be appreciated! Thanks Jon S. --part1_156.bc661d5.29dfb697_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Two questions about the N.S. wreek of earler this week. One, which direction was the mixed freight on the center track traveling, east or west?  And Two, does anyone know if there where any UPS containers or trailers mixed into the train?
Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks
Jon S. --part1_156.bc661d5.29dfb697_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2002 20:54:18 -0600 Subject: [PRR] PRR (sort of): Montour RR From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Yunz I have always been partial to the Montour RR. I played at Montour Junction on the P&LE when I was a kid, and a lot of my family roots, going back to my gr-gr-gr-gr-great grandfather, is in Imperial, right on the Montour line. It is, as you are all aware, difficult to get cars lettered for the Montour, even though Montour hoppers were a common sight in PRR (and P&LE) coal drags. This may be remedied in the near future. I queried the folks at Longview Shops (http://members.aol.com/longvwshop/LVS/LVSMR.htm) specialists in Pittsburgh area railroading, about whether they ever planned on making Montour hopper decals in the 17000 series for USRA hoppers. Here is their reply: - - - - - From: LongvwShop@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 19:09:29 EST To: polychaete@ev1.net Subject: Re: Montour RR Hi Don, We are hoping this year to do a bunch of different USRA hopper schemes on the Accurail cars. These will be very low volume, limited run kit projects. For the Montour that would include the 15000, 16000, and 17000 series in possibly a couple schemes each but definately as they were delivered and as well, the 17000 "Coal goes to war" scheme. We are not started on these yet but would like to get them completed this year. Ed LVS - - - - - So if any of you besides me is interested in getting a bunch of USRA hoppers and lettering them for the Montour, drop these guys a line and encourage them to get to work. By the way, Accurail has a single Montour hopper in the 17000 series available. To see what the lettering would look like, check it out at: http://www.accurail.com/accurail/art/2500/2526.jpg Don Harper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 08:45:20 -0500 From: WAJK4@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Rockville Bridge Party If I remember correctly, today is the party for Rockville Bridge in Marysville. I heard that there is going to be a post card offered for the first time today with a special cancelation during this event. If anyone is going today I have a request to make... please pick up three of the postcards for me and I will make sure to pay you for them as well as postage. Please contact me off of this list if you are able to do this for me. Thank you very much. Walt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Kevin Trichtinger" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR (sort of): Montour RR Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 09:27:25 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" > Yunz > It is, as you are all aware, difficult to get cars lettered for the > Montour, even though Montour hoppers were a common sight in PRR (and P&LE) > coal drags. This may be remedied in the near future. > Good news indeed. Montour hoppers were a staple on the PRR Chartiers branch, from the interchange at Hills Station. I can remember them sometimes outnumbering the PRR hoppers. They're one of the things I can really use. That, and an N6b. And Longview Shops does very nice work. I've got a few of their P&WV channel side hoppers. Peace Kevin T. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 21:36:52 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR EMD E Units --part1_11b.ea1361e.29e10ac4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, Did the Pennsy own E units prior to the purchase of the E-7? Many thanks, Evan Leisey --part1_11b.ea1361e.29e10ac4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List,

 Did the Pennsy own E units prior to the purchase of the E-7?

Many thanks,

Evan Leisey --part1_11b.ea1361e.29e10ac4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR EMD E Units Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 22:17:41 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C1DDB8.DE20D860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Evan,=20 Remember, the PRR was busy trying to perfect the T1 duplex, so did not = order passenger Diesels until after World War II, by which time the E7 = was in production. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RDG2124@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 9:36 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR EMD E Units List,=20 Did the Pennsy own E units prior to the purchase of the E-7?=20 Many thanks,=20 Evan Leisey=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C1DDB8.DE20D860 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Evan,
 
Remember, the PRR was busy trying to perfect the T1 = duplex, so=20 did not order passenger Diesels until after World War II, by which time = the E7=20 was in production.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com=20
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 = 9:36=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] PRR EMD E = Units

List, =

 Did=20 the Pennsy own E units prior to the purchase of the E-7?

Many = thanks,=20

Evan Leisey ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C1DDB8.DE20D860-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 08:32:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR EMD E units --part1_26.25d1a3b5.29e19672_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, Thanks for the responses to the question of the Pennsy ever having E units earlier than the E-6 diesels. Many thanks, Evan Leisey --part1_26.25d1a3b5.29e19672_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List,

 Thanks for the responses to the question of the Pennsy ever having E units earlier than the E-6 diesels.  

Many thanks,

Evan Leisey --part1_26.25d1a3b5.29e19672_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] a bunch of (B-1) Rats Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 08:55:53 -0400 Hi All, There was some recent discussion on my S Scale list about the B-1 Rat switcher, because of the photos I posted of Keith Thompson's beautiful Scratchbuilt B-1. I purchased the following photo yesterday at the Phila. Chapter meeting of the PRR T&HS because I thought it was interesting. http://users.snip.net/~billlane/b1.jpg The back says it is 46th St. in Philadelphia 2-62. Enjoy! Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 08:55:53 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] a bunch of (B-1) Rats Hi All, There was some recent discussion on my S Scale list about the B-1 Rat switcher, because of the photos I posted of Keith Thompson's beautiful Scratchbuilt B-1. I purchased the following photo yesterday at the Phila. Chapter meeting of the PRR T&HS because I thought it was interesting. http://users.snip.net/~billlane/b1.jpg The back says it is 46th St. in Philadelphia 2-62. Enjoy! Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Find the Best Software/ Application Developers at Elance Post Your Project for FREE to receive Competitive Proposals from multiple vendors http://us.click.yahoo.com/DmjnND/8A0DAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 07:56:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Andrews Subject: [PRR] Rockville Limited My wife and I are really looking forward to next Saturday's trip. Jerry's original post mentioned parking in a nearby parking deck. Does anyone know for sure that the deck will be open that early on a saturday morning? I'm kind of leery of parking all day on a city street that's 80 miles from home. Joe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 11:56:39 -0400

Has anyone heard when they will have samples of their upcoming Hudson available for viewing? Last I head they were supposed to have samples in March. I am waiting until I see the Hudson before making a decision on the M1b.
Eric
 
--- Eric Lauterbach
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
 

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 16:01:39 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR's first two E units In a message dated 4/7/02 2:12:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Subject: PRR EMD E Units From: Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 21:36:52 EST --part1_11b.ea1361e.29e10ac4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, Did the Pennsy own E units prior to the purchase of the E-7? Many thanks, Evan Leisey >> Evan, No. One of my all-time favorite Trains magazine articles was "A Reputation for Reliability" by W.A. Gardner, in January 1979 trains. It describes the installation at Harrisburg of the first two E-7A's (5900+5901) in "early fall 1945", arriving the same day as the first two production T-1's (5501 and 5501). This yarn goes on to reveal that at 6 months, these E's, running every day, had accumulated 69000 miles, while the highest-mileage T-1 had run "only 2800". Note that both models were brand new and going through their teething problems. But the diesel availablity was much higher. Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 21:51:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Discussion Wwb --part1_93.1b127461.29e25187_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All of this weekend, whenever I try to go to the Discussion Web on the PRRT& HS site, all I can get is a pop-up for the Yellow Pages. Is there something wrong with their site or is the problem my system?? Someone please advise. Thanks, Chris --part1_93.1b127461.29e25187_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All of this weekend, whenever I try to go to the Discussion Web on the PRRT&HS site, all I can get is a pop-up for the Yellow Pages.  Is there something wrong with their site or is the problem my system??  Someone please advise.

Thanks,
Chris
 --part1_93.1b127461.29e25187_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Discussion Wwb Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 22:04:57 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C1DE80.4152A540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris; I just tried the site...OK from here (Lines West). Earl Myers ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 9:51 PM Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Discussion Wwb All of this weekend, whenever I try to go to the Discussion Web on the = PRRT&HS site, all I can get is a pop-up for the Yellow Pages. Is there = something wrong with their site or is the problem my system?? Someone = please advise. Thanks, Chris ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C1DE80.4152A540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris;
 I just tried the site...OK from = here (Lines=20 West).
Earl Myers
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chrisandbelton2@aol.com =
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 = 9:51=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS = Discussion=20 Wwb

All of this weekend, whenever I try to go to the = Discussion=20 Web on the PRRT&HS site, all I can get is a pop-up for the Yellow=20 Pages.  Is there something wrong with their site or is the = problem my=20 system??  Someone please=20 advise.

Thanks,
Chris
 ------=_NextPart_000_0034_01C1DE80.4152A540-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 22:48:50 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Discussion Wwb Chrisandbelton2@aol.com wrote: > > All of this weekend, whenever I try to go to the Discussion Web on the > PRRT&HS site, all I can get is a pop-up for the Yellow Pages. Is > there something wrong with their site or is the problem my system?? > Someone please advise. > > Thanks, > Chris Chris, The site is working fine as of 10:48 PM EDT. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Discussion Wwb Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 23:34:48 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C1DE8C.CECCCAC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable must be your end of the system. prrths web discussion is working fine. http://prrths.com/InfoDefault.htm greg v ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Chrisandbelton2@aol.com=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 9:51 PM Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Discussion Wwb All of this weekend, whenever I try to go to the Discussion Web on the = PRRT&HS site, all I can get is a pop-up for the Yellow Pages. Is there = something wrong with their site or is the problem my system?? Someone = please advise. Thanks, Chris ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C1DE8C.CECCCAC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
must be your end of the system.   prrths = web=20 discussion is working fine.
http://prrths.com/InfoDefault.= htm
greg v
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Chrisandbelton2@aol.com =
Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 = 9:51=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS = Discussion=20 Wwb

All of this weekend, whenever I try to go to the = Discussion=20 Web on the PRRT&HS site, all I can get is a pop-up for the Yellow=20 Pages.  Is there something wrong with their site or is the = problem my=20 system??  Someone please=20 advise.

Thanks,
Chris
 ------=_NextPart_000_002C_01C1DE8C.CECCCAC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Discussion Wwb Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 23:35:26 -0400 mr morlitz- how nice to see you again greg v ----- Original Message ----- From: "prrbill" Cc: Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 10:48 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Discussion Wwb > Chrisandbelton2@aol.com wrote: > > > > All of this weekend, whenever I try to go to the Discussion Web on the > > PRRT&HS site, all I can get is a pop-up for the Yellow Pages. Is > > there something wrong with their site or is the problem my system?? > > Someone please advise. > > > > Thanks, > > Chris > > Chris, > > The site is working fine as of > 10:48 PM EDT. > > Bill Morlitz > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 08:44:51 +0200 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR EMD E Units RDG2124@aol.com scribit: > Did the Pennsy own E units prior to the purchase of the > E-7? No, the new Kalmbach book on E-units has a list that shows PRR receiving only E7 and E8. (To be careful: Am I right to have understood that some listers do not trust Kalmbach´s publications too much?) Btw.: I just good copies of the Wither´s pictorial books on Baldwin switchers and on Baldwin cab units. I saw on many of the photos multiple(5?)-chime horns on BF-16. Can anyone tell me where to get such part for upgrading my E+R/Roco shark nose? Regards, Burkhard Sanner Lahnau, Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] EMD E units: Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 07:46:36 -0400 Howdy All: This months NRHS, National Railway Bulletin has the story of the Pennsy Passenger diesel fleet - specifically the E units. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS 7061 http://www.wsbcos.com.trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] a bunch of (B-1) Rats Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 08:19:29 -0400 This looks like a scrap line? Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Bill Lane [mailto:billlane@snip.net] Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2002 8:56 AM To: S Scale List; PRR Talk; PRR Modeling; PRR Fax Subject: [PRR] a bunch of (B-1) Rats Hi All, There was some recent discussion on my S Scale list about the B-1 Rat switcher, because of the photos I posted of Keith Thompson's beautiful Scratchbuilt B-1. I purchased the following photo yesterday at the Phila. Chapter meeting of the PRR T&HS because I thought it was interesting. http://users.snip.net/~billlane/b1.jpg The back says it is 46th St. in Philadelphia 2-62. Enjoy! Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 08:49:42 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Two New Withers Publishing Books Coming From: Jerry Britton Withers has two new books coming... "Rockville Bridge: Rails Across the Susquehanna", to be released in 3-4 weeks, by Harrisburg railroad historian/author Dan Cupper, with photos by Jim Bradley, Ken Murry, Don Wood and many others. Vintage illustrations and photos by Harold Brett, Grif Teller, Frederick Gutekunst, W.T. Purviance, and William H. Rau. For the first time, the complete story of this famous 1902 railroad landmark. For 100 years, Rockville Bridge has stood the longest stone-arch and concrete railroad bridge in the world, crossing the Susquehanna River five miles north of Harrisburg, Pa. Now comes the first-ever full story of its planning, construction, featured use in calendar advertising, endurance in floods, even its 1997 partial collapse and million-dollar repair. 200+ photos, 112 pages, 5 maps. Dan had the blueline proofs of this book at the Rockville Bridge birthday celebration in Marysville on April 6. Looks real good! "Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial Vol. 7", to be released May 15, continues the series started by John D. Hahn, Jr., and Withers Publishing in 1995, we are pleased to announce the seventh softcover book in a series that covers the diesel fleet of the Pennsylvania Railroad. Each book pictorially covers particular groups of PRR locomotives, including complete roster data and specifications of each model featured. This book pictorially covers the passenger cab units built by the Electro-Motive Division of General Motors - E7 and E8 models - and Alco - PA and PB models. Units are pictured as-built from the factory, working during the glory days of the PRR, and finally wearing Penn Central compatible numbers and faded coats of Tuscan red. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Tom Kane Subject: RE: [PRR] Possible virus Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 07:02:24 -0700 According to McAfee website this is a hoax. -----Original Message----- From: hanel29@att.net [mailto:hanel29@att.net] Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 8:03 PM To: mpalko4@juno.com; baobrien@hotmail.com; pmendenhall3@comcast.net; MroseEd@AOL.COM; lachman@adelphia.ney; garykendig@earthlink.net; JJS71SJ@msn.com; bighipp@usnetway.com; TEVENSKI@AOL.COM; jenglisch@worldnet.att.net; ashbaby180@AOL.COM; niki8675309@hotmail.com; CookRN@comcast.net; JANIKJOK@AOL.COM; PAD3@comcast.net; MAPA321@AOL.COM; whb@epix.net; USMC5SBC@AOL.COM; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Possible virus Subject: ALERT TO A VIRUS Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 19:47:03 EST Subject: Virus (FOR THOSE THAT DONT KNOW, "WATCH" STANDS FOR THE WORLD TRADE CENTER......WHICH MAKES THIS VIRUS REALLY DANGEROUS BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL OPEN IT RIGHT AWAY.....THINKING ITS A STORY RELATING TO 9/11.....PLEASE BE CAREFUL....... :) BIGGS TROUBLE !!!! DO NOT OPEN "WATCH Survivor"! It is a virus that will erase your whole "CO" drive. It will come to you in the form of an I-Mail from a familiar person. I repeat, a friend sent it to me, but called and warned me before I opened it. He was not so lucky and now he can't even start his computer! Forward this to everyone in your address book. I would rather receive this 25 times than not at all. If you receive an email called "WATCH Survivor" Do Not Open It. Delete it right away! This virus removes all dynamic link libraries (.dll files) from your computer. ------------------------------------------------ Get the award winning ISP, AT&T WorldNet Service http://download.att.net/webtag ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 10:59:06 -0400 From: Carl Starr Subject: [PRR] Williamsport Loco in the river Does any body know if this is a true story ? If so, what is the story? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR's first two E units Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 16:14:34 +0000 That article also states that the person in charge of Harrisburg power immediately concluded that the E's must have had bad (soft) wheels when told they needed turning because none of the T-1's did. It was only when confronted with the relaibility of the E7's compared to the T-1's in the form of the mileage they had racked up did the point become obvious. Also mentioned was that they were assigned to the Detroit Arrow so "when" they failed it would be on a lesser train. And as I recall the guy who wrote the article was a PRR employee assigned to babysit the units and decided on the spot that his future was definitely with EMD rather than the PRR and joined them as a trouble shooter. His remeniscences are a fascinating story about early problems and engineer caused situations. > In a message dated 4/7/02 2:12:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com > writes: > > << Subject: PRR EMD E Units > From: > Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 21:36:52 EST > > > --part1_11b.ea1361e.29e10ac4_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > List, > > Did the Pennsy own E units prior to the purchase of the E-7? > > Many thanks, > > Evan Leisey > >> > Evan, > > No. One of my all-time favorite Trains magazine articles was "A Reputation > for Reliability" by W.A. Gardner, in January 1979 trains. It describes the > installation at Harrisburg of the first two E-7A's (5900+5901) in "early fall > 1945", arriving the same day as the first two production T-1's (5501 and > 5501). > > This yarn goes on to reveal that at 6 months, these E's, running every day, > had accumulated 69000 miles, while the highest-mileage T-1 had run "only > 2800". Note that both models were brand new and going through their teething > problems. But the diesel availablity was much higher. > > Rick Tipton > Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder > plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and > other railroadiana. > Email RickTipton@aol.com > Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) > Wolf Penn Station > 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive > Prospect, KY 40059-9197 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------------------------------------------------ Get the award winning ISP, AT&T WorldNet Service http://download.att.net/webtag ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 12:22:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR's first two E units From: Jerry Britton On 4/8/02 12:14 PM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > That article also states that the person in charge of > Harrisburg power immediately concluded that the E's must > have had bad (soft) wheels when told they needed turning > because none of the T-1's did. It was only when > confronted with the relaibility of the E7's compared to > the T-1's in the form of the mileage they had racked up > did the point become obvious. Also mentioned was that > they were assigned to the Detroit Arrow so "when" they > failed it would be on a lesser train. And as I recall > the guy who wrote the article was a PRR employee > assigned to babysit the units and decided on the spot > that his future was definitely with EMD rather than the > PRR and joined them as a trouble shooter. His > remeniscences are a fascinating story about early > problems and engineer caused situations. My "recollection" was that the first set of E7 units were assigned to the "Liberty Limited". ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR's first two E units Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 11:24:00 -0500 In assigning these units to the Red Arrow, was there any political consideration - EMD being a division of General Motors, whose headquarters was in Detroit? -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 11:15 AM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com; RickTipton@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR's first two E units That article also states that the person in charge of Harrisburg power immediately concluded that the E's must have had bad (soft) wheels when told they needed turning because none of the T-1's did. It was only when confronted with the relaibility of the E7's compared to the T-1's in the form of the mileage they had racked up did the point become obvious. Also mentioned was that they were assigned to the Detroit Arrow so "when" they failed it would be on a lesser train. And as I recall the guy who wrote the article was a PRR employee assigned to babysit the units and decided on the spot that his future was definitely with EMD rather than the PRR and joined them as a trouble shooter. His remeniscences are a fascinating story about early problems and engineer caused situations. > In a message dated 4/7/02 2:12:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com > writes: > > << Subject: PRR EMD E Units > From: > Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 21:36:52 EST > > > --part1_11b.ea1361e.29e10ac4_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > List, > > Did the Pennsy own E units prior to the purchase of the E-7? > > Many thanks, > > Evan Leisey > >> > Evan, > > No. One of my all-time favorite Trains magazine articles was "A Reputation > for Reliability" by W.A. Gardner, in January 1979 trains. It describes the > installation at Harrisburg of the first two E-7A's (5900+5901) in "early fall > 1945", arriving the same day as the first two production T-1's (5501 and > 5501). > > This yarn goes on to reveal that at 6 months, these E's, running every day, > had accumulated 69000 miles, while the highest-mileage T-1 had run "only > 2800". Note that both models were brand new and going through their teething > problems. But the diesel availablity was much higher. > > Rick Tipton > Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder > plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and > other railroadiana. > Email RickTipton@aol.com > Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) > Wolf Penn Station > 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive > Prospect, KY 40059-9197 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------------------------------------------------ Get the award winning ISP, AT&T WorldNet Service http://download.att.net/webtag ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 15:13:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR N5c, Hi Guys, Well, I finished what I set out to do. Model each of the 4 major classes (N5b, N6b, N5c and N8) of PRR Cabin Cars. About a year ago I started. Just yesterday I completed work on the 4th, the N5c. Again these were built to G (1:29th) Scale. The N5c went rather quickly, about 2 months off and on. Of the 4 I built, the N8 ranks as the one I like best, then the N5c, N6b and then the N5b. To view the N5c project you can visit here: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/GN5C-index.html To see each of the cabins you can visit the 3rd webpage listed below and then proceed to page 2, about half way down. There are clickable links to each project. Now to take a break and sometime this summer start on that B6sb....Thanks again to all who shared prototype info concerning these cabins, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 16:16:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-Modeling] PRR N5c, Al, Bill, Tug, List Thanks for the pep talks! Tug, Yep! it's a model. I tried to capture some of the last photos at a low angle view with the camera so it would appear more life like. It worked! For anyone in the Pittsburgh area, I will (most likely) have these 4 PRR Cabns on display at the Model Train Show/Sale that will be sponsored by the Beaver County Model Railroad Club. It will be held April 21st from 10-3 at the Center Stage Hall in Center Twp. Email for more directions if interested. Besides the train sale, there will be a Div 2 NMRA meeting held after the show. They usually hold a model contest so I figured to enter the 4 cabins. Still most likely won't be at Camp Hill. Sorry......Thanks again, Gary...... Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 19:43:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Purposed 7500 HP Electric Freight Locomotives,Pittsburgh Greetings List, I just received a rare PRR/Westinghouse book about the huge electric locomotives that PRR requested to be built for the electric territory and the extension of the catenary from Harrisburg to Conway. Another lines to be electrified were the Sang Hollow Extention and the Conemaugh Mainline. This book has the tonnage ratings for pulling freight trains over the Middle Division, then from E. Altoona to Gallitzin, then to Conway. And also to Conway via the Conemaugh Division under catenary! All the plans, blueprints, parts needed to build these massive electrics are listed in the book. So far what I've read, the PRR wanted these electric to share the same parts with the GG1s and the P5a. Both purposed electrics have sixteen driving wheels. One looks like a long shark nose diesel, and the other one looks like PRR's E3c but much longer. 140' 8'' to be exact! I'm in the process of getting it scanned so everyone can see what could have happened if the PRR strung the wires to Pittsburgh. The request from PRR is dated June 6, 1947. Can you imagine electrics on Horseshoe Curve with GG1s or a J1 as a helper. Now there is supposed to be another PRR/Westinghouse book on the "new" GG1 that they planning to build to run west from Harrisburg. A longer version with two more sets of drivers. Maybe one day that book will be discovered. I'll post some info out of the book later. I'll also bring this book to the PRRT&HS meet in Harrisburg. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 21:58:22 -0400 From: "Richard Poole" Subject: [PRR] NS 6779 Looking for some info on NORFOLK SOUTHERN 6779, an SD 50 or 60. 1. What was the CONRAIL number? 2. Is it still BLUE? 3. Where is it hanging out? I see plenty of NS trains passing thru the HARRISBURG PENNSYLVANIA AMTRAK PASSENGER STATION but have yet to see the 6779. I see number just ahead and just behind but the 6779 is missing. 4. What is it . . . An SD-?? (I know it is a "Wide-Body" cab unit) I built a one inch scale live steam model of PRR's M-1b and used the 6779 as the number. I would like a photo of the NS 6779 for my collection. -- DICK POOLE -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson) Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 22:08:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Purposed 7500 HP Electric Freight Bill, I did talk to a few folks at the chapter meeting about this book. Then the "whats ifs" started to hit us. This would have changed the Pennsy forever. If the PRR went with the 1938 plan to go with catenary over the mountains, the T1s and Texas-types may have never been built. Now thats something to think about. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 22:12:47 -0400 From: "H.&S." Subject: [PRR] E-7 units Hello all.... Its a shame more wer'nt saved.....but its a tribute to these engines that one of PRR's very first....5901 is the only E-7 anywhere still extant today. That and the men who saved it. (read about that in the same issue of TRAINS). Til Later H. Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 22:25:08 -0400 From: "H.&S." Subject: [PRR] Ex-Pennsy carfloat still with us. Hello.... As some here know i work at a local shipyard in the Tidewater,Va. area....also i work part-time for another yard.....Colonna's Shipyard (of NW and Winston O. Link fame, and yes i have been to the exact spot the picture was taken). Anyway i was called in last week to work on a barge and on the marine railway next to it was a carfloat barge called the "Nandua"...For those who don't know this carfloat is owned by the Eastern Shore RR. It was formerly called the Capt.Edward Richardson....a name it was given when built by the PRR in 1948. This carfloat was the largest and last built for the PRR. Over the years its changed ownership, and had its main track deck replaced ,and even sank once, but over 50 years later its still doing (abet not as often) what the PRR built it for. It long ago lost its wheel house,rudders and steam donkey engines (the wheel house survives as a yard office for the E.S.RR.). Its now at Colonna's for some much needed rest and repair...and hopefully some paint. Thought some of you might like to know..... Til Later H. Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Purposed 7500 HP Electric Freight Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 12:56:25 +0000 The PRR would still have needed something for west of Pittsburgh had they electirfied that far. Would a modern M2 have sufficed? Or how about a K6? I believe that the cost of having done the electrification to Pittsburgh would have resulted in a debt load that would have precluded the development of any further steam and in all probability may have resulted in the PRR testing or buying diesels as early as the FT for the west end. The again they still needed something for racing across the west end so nothing may have changed except the quantities of engines. > Bill, > > I did talk to a few folks at the chapter meeting about this > book. Then the "whats ifs" started to hit us. This would have changed > the Pennsy forever. > If the PRR went with the 1938 plan to go with catenary over > the mountains, the T1s and Texas-types may have never been built. Now > thats something to think about. > > Dave > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------------------------------------------------ Get the award winning ISP, AT&T WorldNet Service http://download.att.net/webtag ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Purposed 7500 HP Electric Freight Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 10:10:51 -0400 Dave wrote: Now there is supposed to be another PRR/Westinghouse book on the "new" GG1 that they planning to build to run west from Harrisburg. A longer version with two more sets of drivers. Maybe one day that book will be discovered. I'll post some info out of the book later. I'll also bring this book to the PRRT&HS meet in Harrisburg. Listers, At last year's PRRT&HS meeting I remember Bill Lewis (president of the North Central Chapter) mentioned that while working at the Lewistown archives he saw the plans to a "Super GG1" Now if we can just get them to show up at the meeeting! Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bruce Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Purposed 7500 HP Electric Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 10:13:49 -0400 As long as we're speculating, what if the plan to extend the catenary over the mountains had been delayed until after WW II and then adopted instead of the rush to buy diesels. The new steam power , T1's , J1's , and Q2's , might then have completed normal service lives west of Pittsburgh as mainline power, instead of making premature trips to the scrapper. One wonders how the Q2's would have done in modern fast speed freight service (over 50 mph). Older steam power would have served for the branchlines as it in fact they did for a while.. This leaves few if any diesels except for switchers before say the mid 1950's. The first major purchases would then have been road switchers like the GP7's and GP9's to replace the older steamers. What would happen when the mainline steam power starts getting old could go one of two ways. The first and most obvious is replacement by diesels in the 1970's. The second, most likely if steam survived till the first big oil shortage, would be a new generation of steam locomotives of radically different design that burned pulverized coal in a fluid bed combustion chamber. The improved combustion would have been mandated by new pollution standards. I recall reading about a proposed design for such a locomotive. Looked a little like a cross between the Q1 (piston and wheel arrangements) and the Norfolk and Western's Jawn Henry. Bruce > The PRR would still have needed something for west of > Pittsburgh had they electirfied that far. Would a modern > M2 have sufficed? Or how about a K6? I believe that > the cost of having done the electrification to > Pittsburgh would have resulted in a debt load that would > have precluded the development of any further steam and > in all probability may have resulted in the PRR testing > or buying diesels as early as the FT for the west end. > The again they still needed something for racing across > the west end so nothing may have changed except the > quantities of engines. > > Bill, > > > > I did talk to a few folks at the chapter meeting about this > > book. Then the "whats ifs" started to hit us. This would have changed > > the Pennsy forever. > > If the PRR went with the 1938 plan to go with catenary over > > the mountains, the T1s and Texas-types may have never been built. Now > > thats something to think about. > > > > Dave > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ------------------------------------------------ > Get the award winning ISP, AT&T WorldNet Service > http://download.att.net/webtag > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Purposed 7500 HP Electric Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 16:00:36 -0400 Friends: If we are going to "what if", how about an electrified Sam Ray line all the way to Chicago? That would have put the NYC out of business quick!! Probably cut an easy 2 hours off the trip from NY to Chi. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Andrews" To: ; "PRR-Talk" ; "Dave Hopson" Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 10:13 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Purposed 7500 HP Electric FreightLocomotives,PittsburghDiv. > As long as we're speculating, what if the plan to extend the catenary over > the mountains had been delayed until after WW II and then adopted instead of > the rush to buy diesels. The new steam power , T1's , J1's , and Q2's , > might then have completed normal service lives west of Pittsburgh as > mainline power, instead of making premature trips to the scrapper. One > wonders how the Q2's would have done in modern fast speed freight service > (over 50 mph). Older steam power would have served for the branchlines as it > in fact they did for a while.. > > This leaves few if any diesels except for switchers before say the mid > 1950's. The first major purchases would then have been road switchers like > the GP7's and GP9's to replace the older steamers. What would happen when > the mainline steam power starts getting old could go one of two ways. The > first and most obvious is replacement by diesels in the 1970's. The second, > most likely if steam survived till the first big oil shortage, would be a > new generation of steam locomotives of radically different design that > burned pulverized coal in a fluid bed combustion chamber. The improved > combustion would have been mandated by new pollution standards. I recall > reading about a proposed design for such a locomotive. Looked a little like > a cross between the Q1 (piston and wheel arrangements) and the Norfolk and > Western's Jawn Henry. > > Bruce > > > The PRR would still have needed something for west of > > Pittsburgh had they electirfied that far. Would a modern > > M2 have sufficed? Or how about a K6? I believe that > > the cost of having done the electrification to > > Pittsburgh would have resulted in a debt load that would > > have precluded the development of any further steam and > > in all probability may have resulted in the PRR testing > > or buying diesels as early as the FT for the west end. > > The again they still needed something for racing across > > the west end so nothing may have changed except the > > quantities of engines. > > > Bill, > > > > > > I did talk to a few folks at the chapter meeting about this > > > book. Then the "whats ifs" started to hit us. This would have changed > > > the Pennsy forever. > > > If the PRR went with the 1938 plan to go with catenary over > > > the mountains, the T1s and Texas-types may have never been built. Now > > > thats something to think about. > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ------------------------------------------------ > > Get the award winning ISP, AT&T WorldNet Service > > http://download.att.net/webtag > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Super "G" Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 21:03:23 +0000 I thought a prototype was built as a potential engine. Wasn't there one experimental that was not a elegant as a G but had the same basic shape other than the R1? I recall a 2-D-D-2 of some type that was the Baltimore helper for awhile. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Super "G" Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 17:21:40 -0400 Twern't a 2-D-D-2, but a DD2, which was a 2-B-B-2! Gregg Malhkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 5:03 PM Subject: [PRR] Super "G" > I thought a prototype was built as a potential engine. > Wasn't there one experimental that was not a elegant as > a G but had the same basic shape other than the R1? I > recall a 2-D-D-2 of some type that was the Baltimore > helper for awhile. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 16:27:49 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Super "G" >I thought a prototype was built as a potential engine. >Wasn't there one experimental that was not a elegant as >a G but had the same basic shape other than the R1? I >recall a 2-D-D-2 of some type that was the Baltimore >helper for awhile. You are thinking of the DD-2, #5800, a 2-B-B-2 electric, built in 1938 and pictured here http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/htm/bvpr043.htm from the Bill Volkmer collection. No HO models that I am aware of...(it is on the "to do" list at Rail Classics, but that list is pretty long and the E6 just fell off it) Speaking of the R1, Locomotive Workshop was going to offer a brass R1 kit in O scale, but there isn't anything on their web site... http://www.locomotiveworkshop.com which isn't too detailed anyway. Anyone know if they are releasing this? I'd love one in HO! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Super "G" Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 17:37:26 -0400 Friends: To my best recollection, the only electric engine prototype ever built by the PRR for possible use west of Harrisburg was the FF1, big Liz. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." To: Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 5:27 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Super "G" > >I thought a prototype was built as a potential engine. > >Wasn't there one experimental that was not a elegant as > >a G but had the same basic shape other than the R1? I > >recall a 2-D-D-2 of some type that was the Baltimore > >helper for awhile. > > You are thinking of the DD-2, #5800, a 2-B-B-2 electric, built in 1938 and > pictured here http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/htm/bvpr043.htm from the > Bill Volkmer collection. No HO models that I am aware of...(it is on the > "to do" list at Rail Classics, but that list is pretty long and the E6 just > fell off it) > > Speaking of the R1, Locomotive Workshop was going to offer a brass R1 kit > in O scale, but there isn't anything on their web site... > http://www.locomotiveworkshop.com which isn't too detailed anyway. Anyone > know if they are releasing this? I'd love one in HO! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 21:08:08 -0400 From: Keith B Thompson Subject: Re: [PRR] Super "G" "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: > You are thinking of the DD-2, #5800, a 2-B-B-2 electric, built in 1938 and > pictured here http://davesrailpix.railfan.net/prr/htm/bvpr043.htm from the > Bill Volkmer collection. No HO models that I am aware of...(it is on the > "to do" list at Rail Classics, but that list is pretty long and the E6 just > fell off it) If you come to the convention this year there will be an S scale DD-2 for your viewing pleasure... :) kbt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "S J Lash" Subject: Re: [PRR] NS 6779 Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 21:41:54 -0400 Dick According to the Conrail Cyclopedia web site 6779 was an SD 50 blt in 1984. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Poole" To: "CONRAIL TALK" ; "PRR TALK" Sent: Monday, April 08, 2002 9:58 PM Subject: [PRR] NS 6779 > Looking for some info on NORFOLK SOUTHERN 6779, an SD 50 or 60. > > 1. What was the CONRAIL number? > 2. Is it still BLUE? > 3. Where is it hanging out? I see plenty of NS trains passing thru the HARRISBURG PENNSYLVANIA AMTRAK PASSENGER STATION but have yet to see the 6779. I see number just ahead and just behind but the 6779 is missing. > 4. What is it . . . An SD-?? (I know it is a "Wide-Body" cab unit) > > I built a one inch scale live steam model of PRR's M-1b and used the 6779 as the number. I would like a photo of the NS 6779 for my collection. > > -- > DICK POOLE > -- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson) Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 22:10:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Purposed 7500 HP Electric Here's a sample of this purposed PRR Electric for crossing the Alleghany Mountains. Dimensions: Wheel Arrangment 4-4-4-4 (each car body) Lenth over couple faces 140' 8" Lenth of Car body 68' 7" (2) Height over locked down panto. 15' 0" Width over cab sheets 10' 0-1/4'' Total wheel base 126' 2'' Wheel Diameter 44'' Total Weight 720,000 Horsepower 7500 HP Short Time Overload 10000 HP MAX Speed 65mph Continuous Tractive Eff. at 65 mph: 47500 @ 32.5 mph............86500 lbs @ 15 mph............120000 lbs Starting Tractive Eff.......180000 lbs Max Starting Eff...........250000 lbs Dynamic Braking Retarding Eff...............................140000 @ 20mph ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 20:33:59 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Toluidine Red Hi, Does anyone on the list know if one of the available colors in the Floquil (solvent-based) paint line is a reasonable match for the "toluidine red" used on PRR keystone number plates? I'm not trying to be the "paint police" here - I'm not seeking an exact match, just something that is a sufficiently close approximation. Thanks - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 23:39:44 -0400 From: "H.&S." Subject: [PRR] Super G Hi..... Perhaps PRR was thinking of something like the massive Great Northern Class Y-1? engine.... You know that huge post WWII diesel cab nosed double ended locomotive. And if i recall right it had an extra set of drivers on each engine truck. I'm not talking about Milwalkee's Little Joes..... This GN engine was bigger. Til Later H. Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 21:06:17 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Super G --- "H.&S." wrote: > Perhaps PRR was thinking of something like the > massive Great Northern Class Y-1? engine.... > You know that huge post WWII diesel cab nosed > double ended locomotive. And if i recall right > it had an extra set of drivers on each engine truck. It was class W-1, according to "When the Steam Railroads Electrified". It was a B-D+D-B motor/generator unit rated at 5000 HP continous, starting tractive effort 180,000 lbs. Class Y-1 was a 2-C+C-2 boxcab, also MG power, and as you may recall, ended up on the PRR as class FF2. There was also a class Y-1a which had a double-end EMD-style body, rebuilt from a wrecked Y-1 and some EMD body parts. It too ended up on PRR as a parts mine for the FF2's Recall also that the Virginian had a thundering great class EL-2B, B-B-B-B under each of two car bodies. They were also MG units, rated at 6800 HP, 162,000 lbs tractive effort, continuous. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: STEVEGG1@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 02:31:06 EDT Subject: [PRR] Sat Harrisburg Train Excursion question --part1_132.bf817b3.29e5362a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings all, Does anyone know if this Sat's special from Harrisburg to Harrisburg will have any stops/ runbys? Thanks!!! Steve --part1_132.bf817b3.29e5362a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings all,
Does anyone know if this Sat's special from Harrisburg to Harrisburg will have any stops/ runbys?
Thanks!!!
Steve --part1_132.bf817b3.29e5362a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Apr 02 03:49:39 EDT From: LINKM@timken.com Subject: [PRR] What If List: While we are on thw "what if" subject, we could also explore the possibi lities about steam locomotive development in the 1930's. What if the PRR would have made a move similar to the K-4s and L-1s classes and developed a modern p assenger loco, say a 4-6-4 under an M-1's boiler, utilizing standard machinery for both. Perhaps if the J-1 would have been looked into before the war, we co uld have had a passenger version of the big brute in say a 4-8-4 wheel arrangem ent and the J would have had the more traditional belpair firebox on the boiler . Would it have been more successful? Maybe they could have developed an Alto ona redesigned Lima Allegheny................... Matt Link Remembering the PRR in Crestline ********************************************************************** This message and any attachments are intended for the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not forward, copy, print, use or disclose this communication to others; also please notify the sender by replying to this message, and then delete it from your system. The Timken Company ********************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 06:54:15 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Sat Harrisburg Train Excursion question No Stops, No Run-bys! Bennett STEVEGG1@aol.com wrote: > > Greetings all, > Does anyone know if this Sat's special from Harrisburg to Harrisburg will have any stops/ runbys? > Thanks!!! > Steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Toluidine Red Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 08:36:59 -0400 Claus: The Toluidine red I have seen first hand in the museums (under a mixture of tungsten and daylight illumination) has a vermilion look to it to me. I know from experience that Floquill's caboose red, under tungsten lights, looks about the same, when it it used in very small quantities, i.e., the background of the loco number boards or window sash. If you want a more vermilion look, add just a touch of reefer orange. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Claus Schlund" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 11:33 PM Subject: [PRR] Toluidine Red > Hi, > > Does anyone on the list know if one of the > available colors in the Floquil (solvent-based) > paint line is a reasonable match for the > "toluidine red" used on PRR keystone number > plates? > > I'm not trying to be the "paint police" > here - I'm not seeking an exact match, > just something that is a sufficiently close > approximation. > > Thanks - Claus > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 08:26:11 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Toluidine Red Lew sez: >The Toluidine red I have seen first hand in the museums (under a mixture of >tungsten and daylight illumination) has a vermilion look to it to me. I >know from experience that Floquill's caboose red, under tungsten lights, >looks about the same, when it it used in very small quantities, i.e., the >background of the loco number boards or window sash. If you want a more >vermilion look, add just a touch of reefer orange. The recipe I was given a few years back was caboose red with a drop of black, which looks very close to me. I just painted a black plastic keystone with caboose red, and it looked pretty good, as the black background is hard to completely paint over! BTW, my paints were Poly Scale, but the recipe was for floquil Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 10 Apr 2002 11:45:41 -0400 From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] Electrics over the mountain Reply to: Electrics over the mountain wrote: "The PRR would still have needed something for west of Pittsburgh had they electirfied that far. I believe that the cost of having done the electrification to Pittsburgh would have resulted in a debt load that would have precluded the development of any further steam and in all probability may have resulted in the PRR testing or buying diesels as early as the FT for the west end. " Yes, look at what happened after the NY-DC-HBG electrification. So many useable steam locomotives were freed up, it essentially stopped any PRR steam design in its tracks (of course, the Depression didn't help there, either). Given PRR's cow-towing to its on-line coal interests that resulted in its ill-fated post-war attempts at "modern steam", it seems unlikely that it would have given up useable steam locomotives it had on-hand, fed by on-line coal mines, in order to incur yet MORE debt for diesel locomotives, post Pitts Div. electrification. I think PRR would have kept running the wheels off those K4's, M1's, I1's, etc. on Lines West and the non-electrified lines east, as long as it could I think one of the things that finally drove many railroads to diesels in the early 50's was John L. Lewis and his coal strikes, but these were years in the future. Not sure if it was the price increases the strikes engendered, or the instability of the source of locomotive fuel. In college, I thought about this Pittsburgh division electrification a lot. I knew of the Big Liz electric locomotive that was built during the time of the Paoli electrification, and I think that was built with the idea of electrifying over the mountain, way back then. As it said in the Staufer book, it was too far ahead of its time, and tended to crush the wooden underframe cars of the day when in pusher service. At the time I wasn't aware of the Sam Rea Line idea. To me, it didn't make sense to have (relatively) high-speed mainlines on either side of the route between Altoona and Gallitzin, only to have everything get bunched up on the mountain (great for railfans, a pain for operating men). My idea was to instead drill a pair of double-track tunnels straight east from Portage to a spot near the alignment of the old Portage Railroad where *old* route 22 now comes down the mountain. A high-speed alignment east of there lead to where the branch to Hollidaysburg diverges from the main near Alto tower. The new grade would have been challenging but not as much as the alignment over Horse Shoe Curve. The new line east of the east portals would have required some substantial earthwork, but hey, we're talking about the PRR, here. The summit of the grade would have been much lower, there would be far less curvature, and traffic of the line wouldn't have been as congested due to the elimination of helper service. I think even electrified, the Horse Shoe Curve line would have still required helper service. Of course, the tunnels would have been named the Edgar Thomson Tunnels... Ah, yes, speculation about what was never to be! Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:49:53 EDT Subject: [PRR] Toluidine Red TUSCAN red comes from the color of the clays in the 'Tuscan region of Italy - I'd bet that PRR found a similar color "on line" and did not import the clay from Italy. FLORETINE red must mean that the soil around Florence is much redder. Can anyone explain the derivation of "Toluidine" and how it is different from "Florentine" or Burlington's "Chinese Red"? Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 20:09:29 -0400 From: Ken Meyer Subject: Re: [PRR] Sat Harrisburg Train Excursion question Is there a timetable of sorts? Ken Bennett Levin wrote: > No Stops, No Run-bys! > > Bennett > > STEVEGG1@aol.com wrote: > > > > Greetings all, > > Does anyone know if this Sat's special from Harrisburg to Harrisburg will have any stops/ runbys? > > Thanks!!! > > Steve > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 21:46:36 -0400 From: Ken Meyer Subject: [PRR] PRR switch machine Between Washington and Philly the PRR used a very distinct switch machine(?) on the mainline. Is there any info/pictures at on the web? Keystone articles? Ken ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 21:12:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR switch machine On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Ken Meyer wrote: > Between Washington and Philly the PRR used a very distinct switch > machine(?) on the mainline. Is there any info/pictures at on the web? > Keystone articles? > Ken Ken, I have a 1938 Railway Age article that details the Harrisburg electrification, and teh "electropneumatic switch machines" installed in the interlockings. Might these be similar? Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: [PRR] Rockville bridge Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 00:38:41 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C1E0F1.3A81A680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gents; Is there a general outline drawing available for this bridge?? Maybe = enough info for a fella to build a reasonably accurate model of it or a = compressed version?? Earl Myers ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C1E0F1.3A81A680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gents;
 Is there a general outline = drawing available=20 for this bridge?? Maybe enough info for a fella to build a reasonably = accurate=20 model of it or a compressed version??
Earl Myers
------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C1E0F1.3A81A680-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 06:24:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Rockville bridge From: Jerry Britton On 4/11/02 12:38 AM, Earl Myers at (emyers5@neo.rr.com) wrote: > Is there a general outline drawing available for this bridge?? Maybe enough > info for a fella to build a reasonably accurate model of it or a compressed > version?? There are scale models actually available from Model Railroad Stoneworks... http://www.modelrailroadstoneworks.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Viv Brice" Subject: [PRR] MoW Yellow Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 20:09:25 +1000 Guys, I am sure this has been asked before and I'm sorry for asking again, but I'd like to know what is a suitable model paint approximation to the PRR's MoW Yellow colour? Regards, Viv Brice An SPF from 'Down Under' ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Keith Pomroy" Subject: RE: [PRR] Sat Harrisburg Train Excursion question Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 07:53:07 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C1E12D.EB1CDDC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone, Does anyone have a schedule of when the excursion will be passing various points? I'll probably be looking for it in Mount Joy and Lancaster, for example, and would not want to miss it. Even just a time for Harrisburg would be useful, since I can then figure out its subsequent location and times. Thanks! Keith -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of STEVEGG1@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:31 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Sat Harrisburg Train Excursion question Greetings all, Does anyone know if this Sat's special from Harrisburg to Harrisburg will have any stops/ runbys? Thanks!!! Steve ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C1E12D.EB1CDDC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello=20 Everyone,
Does=20 anyone have a schedule of when the excursion will be passing various = points?=20 I'll probably be looking for it in Mount Joy and Lancaster, for example, = and=20 would not want to miss it. Even just a time for Harrisburg would be = useful,=20 since I can then figure out its subsequent location and=20 times.
Thanks!
Keith
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of = STEVEGG1@aol.com
Sent:=20 Wednesday, April 10, 2002 2:31 AM
To:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Sat Harrisburg Train = Excursion=20 question

Greetings=20 all,
Does anyone know if this Sat's special from Harrisburg to = Harrisburg=20 will have any stops/ runbys?
Thanks!!!
Steve=20
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C1E12D.EB1CDDC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 08:04:59 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Sat Harrisburg Train Excursion question From: Jerry Britton On 4/11/02 7:53 AM, Keith Pomroy (keithpomroy@email.msn.com) wrote: > Does anyone have a schedule of when the excursion will be passing various > points? I'll probably be looking for it in Mount Joy and Lancaster, for > example, and would not want to miss it. Even just a time for Harrisburg would > be useful, since I can then figure out its subsequent location and times. I believe the Harrisburg departure is at 7:30 a.m. My advice would be that you be in position at Mount Joy no later than 7:45 a.m. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 08:16:21 -0400 Subject: [PRR] To Those Photographing The Rockville Express From: Jerry Britton For those photographing The Rockville Express this weekend, if you'd care to share your photos via the web, Keystone Crossings will be glad to host them, as we did for prior excursions. Please e-mail the photos as an attachment to "hostmaster@dsop.com". Be sure to include your full name (for credit) and preferably some text describing where each shot is at. I am particularly interested in shots along the Port Road, but I don't know who will take on the geography to do so. I had planned on doing Safe Harbor, but a scheduling conflict will keep me away. I will be at HARRIS tower on Sunday when the trip returns to Harrisburg. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 08:47:20 -0400 From: Keith B Thompson Subject: Re: [PRR] MoW Yellow Viv, I've used Floquil Reefer Yellow and it seems to match the photos i have fairly well. I think the PRRT&HS sells color cards that include MOW Yellow but I do not have a set to compare. kbt Viv Brice wrote: > > Guys, > I am sure this has been asked before and I'm sorry for asking again, but I'd > like to know what is a suitable model paint approximation to the PRR's MoW > Yellow colour? > Regards, Viv Brice > An SPF from 'Down Under' ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] MoW Yellow Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 09:15:31 -0400 I use Floquil SP yellow oversprayed with Floquil 3 part white and 1 part yellow to mimic fade, plus the standard weathering. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Viv Brice" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 6:09 AM Subject: [PRR] MoW Yellow > Guys, > I am sure this has been asked before and I'm sorry for asking again, but I'd > like to know what is a suitable model paint approximation to the PRR's MoW > Yellow colour? > Regards, Viv Brice > An SPF from 'Down Under' > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 09:35:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] MoW Yellow Viv, Here is another option for MoW Yellow. I too do not have a color drift card but I liked the results. I used Testors Model Master Chrome? Yellow (I think that is the name, it has been awhile since I did them) when I built the Westerfield Camp Car set. Here are the pics. Just scroll down til you see the CAMP CAR Listings: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics2.html Weathering helps blend everything together .........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton" Subject: RE: [PRR] Toluidine Red Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 16:37:57 +0100 ~ TUSCAN red comes from the color of the clays in the 'Tuscan region of ~Italy - I'd bet that PRR found a similar color "on line" and did not import ~the clay from Italy. ~ FLORETINE red must mean that the soil around Florence is much redder. ~ Can anyone explain the derivation of "Toluidine" and how it is ~different ~from "Florentine" or Burlington's "Chinese Red"? ~ ~Dick Ross Tuscan, Florentine, Venetian red and so on reflect their origins in natural earth pigments. Chinese red is another natural pigment - though the name is old fashioned, it's a natural vermilion pigment. Toluidine red on the other hand is a synthetic organic pigment. It's one of the more common synthetic red pigments. The derivation of the name is from the chemical makeup not a locality. Depending on the make up of the paint the best description I can give is a warm vermilion - it's not quite scarlet It's possibly worth noting that paints may be mixed using a mix of pigments to get a colour that approximates earth tones, especially where the natural pigment is rare/costly. Aidrian --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.344 / Virus Database: 191 - Release Date: 02/04/2002 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 11:54:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RE: [PRR] Toluidine Red List, A little tid bit: I was told by PRR Hardware collectors that the Toluidine Red used on Keystone Plates, Tower Signs, etc is a very very close match to the Red on the old Coca-Cola Buttons. Not sure if it is the same shade of red these days or not. Did Coke use Toluidine Red too? hmmm..... Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Pope's Creek Branch Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 16:25:53 +0000 How much traffic was there on the Pope's Creek Branch? What was it's purpose? Is it still active? I assume it ended at Chesepeake Bay? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 12:29:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Toluidine Red In a message dated 4/11/02 10:59:54 AM Central Daylight Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << Did Coke use Toluidine Red too? >> That has been my understanding for many years. In fact I was just preparing to post that when your post arrived. Not a fact for which I can point to documentation, but it was my understanding that it was precisely the same color as the PRR used. I'm not sure of the present Coca Cola colors, but I am talking about the Pennsy era. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:37:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR Bell, Yes or No Lists, I am sure many of you have seen this auction on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1091172690 Can anyone verify this is a PRR Bell let alone a K4 Bell? I am almost 99.99999% sure it is not. I have a K4 Bell and this ebay Bell is nowhere near similar. My email to the seller went on deaf ears and blind eyes. I shared a photo of my K4 Bell and he stands by his little piece of paper of porof this is a K4 Bell. As far as I know there were 3 standard type PRR Yokes/Cradles. 1. The Off Set for the N1 Class, 2.The High Pedastal Type found on many shifters IE: A and B's, and early power. 3. The Low Cradle found on the K, I, L, M, G, E, H, C. This eBay bell is a Pedestal type but not, as far I as I can research, a PRR Pedestal Type. You will note the circular mount base with large hole. This is not PRR. Does anyone here have this same opinion? I am not after the eBay Bell, I just feel sorry for the eventual winner. He may be thinking he is getting a K4 Bell and I don't think he is. I agree with the sellers updated description. This maybe a N&W Bell. Still worth owning but it is not PRR .....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Athearn F7 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:21:20 -0400 Listers, Need to buy Trainphone Antenna and front lift rings for the Athearn Genesis F units. Any recommendations? Also any other detail parts that are a must to add? Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:31:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn F7 From: Jerry Britton On 4/11/02 3:21 PM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > Need to buy Trainphone Antenna and front lift rings for the Athearn Genesis > F units. Any recommendations? Also any other detail parts that are a must > to add? > Greg Martin did the units that appeared in the Genesis ads when these units were released. At the time, he gave me the bill of materials to post on Keystone Crossings. You can review what he use at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/martinf7.ws4d ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:35:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn F7 Chris, The F7's would need the Cal Scale Antenna Mast, Detail Associates Nose Rings (I used Overland Parts), a Builders Plate for the B Unit, Speed Recorders, removal of firemans side horn. I am sure there is more but this is to Pennsyfy them. If you can wait awhile longer, I am sure Greg Martins article on how to detail these untis will be a huge help. Greg, When is this article due?....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 15:36:34 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Toluidine Red Bob, Gary and All, I think it was the 1973 Convention when someone ask the question to John Prophet and that was his reply but as he reminded the crowd all things changed when the government banned the use of lead in paint... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 13:37:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Bell, Yes or No Lists, I am sure many of you have seen this auction on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1091172690 Can anyone verify this is a PRR Bell let alone a K4 Bell? I am almost 99.99999% sure it is not. I have a K4 Bell and this ebay Bell is nowhere near similar. My email to the seller went on deaf ears and blind eyes. I shared a photo of my K4 Bell and he stands by his little piece of paper of porof this is a K4 Bell. As far as I know there were 3 standard type PRR Yokes/Cradles. 1. The Off Set for the N1 Class, 2.The High Pedastal Type found on many shifters IE: A and B's, and early power. 3. The Low Cradle found on the K, I, L, M, G, E, H, C. This eBay bell is a Pedestal type but not, as far I as I can research, a PRR Pedestal Type. You will note the circular mount base with large hole. This is not PRR. Does anyone here have this same opinion? I am not after the eBay Bell, I just feel sorry for the eventual winner. He may be thinking he is getting a K4 Bell and I don't think he is. I agree with the sellers updated description. This maybe a N&W Bell. Still worth owning but it is not PRR .....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Find the Best Software/ Application Developers at Elance Save Time & Money Post your Project for FREE http://us.click.yahoo.com/VgjnMD/DB0DAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson) Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 21:20:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Pope's Creek Branch Pope's Creek Branch is still very active today. If you're lucky, you can catch a daylight coal train entering the branch off the NEC. There was an article in Railpace Magazine (July 1999). Hope this helps. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "teabow" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 04/11/02 Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 21:37:30 -0400 Hi list, After searching my art books unsuccessfully for about the last 1/2 hour I have given up on the complete definition of toludine red .It doesn't seem to be sold as an artist paint anymore .So I'll try and do this from memory.Toludine Red was a synthetic color (manmade) as opposed to an organic color(natural).It seems it was popular in the 1940's.Today there are much better pigments on the markets, like quinacridones and cadmiums.Toludine red was not as lightfast (fade resistant) as other reds . If you're interested in learning more about paints and pigments I'd like to recommend "The Artists Handbook of Materials and Techniques" by Ralph Meyer and"Blue and Yellow don't make Green " by Michael Wilcox. ----- Original Message ----- From: "PRR-Talk" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2002 1:10 AM Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 04/11/02 PRR-Talk Digest - Thursday, April 11, 2002 Sat Harrisburg Train Excursion question by What If by Re: [PRR] Sat Harrisburg Train Excursion question by "Bennett Levin" Re: [PRR] Toluidine Red by "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Re: [PRR] Toluidine Red by "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Electrics over the mountain by "Doug Drew" [PRR] Toluidine Red by Re: [PRR] Sat Harrisburg Train Excursion question by "Ken Meyer" PRR switch machine by "Ken Meyer" Re: [PRR] PRR switch machine by "Bruce F Smith" Rockville bridge by "Earl Myers" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Sat Harrisburg Train Excursion question From: Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 02:31:06 EDT --part1_132.bf817b3.29e5362a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings all, Does anyone know if this Sat's special from Harrisburg to Harrisburg will have any stops/ runbys? Thanks!!! Steve --part1_132.bf817b3.29e5362a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings all,
Does anyone know if this Sat's special from Harrisburg to Harrisburg will have any stops/ runbys?
Thanks!!!
Steve --part1_132.bf817b3.29e5362a_boundary-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: What If From: Date: Wed, 10 Apr 02 03:49:39 EDT List: While we are on thw "what if" subject, we could also explore the possibi lities about steam locomotive development in the 1930's. What if the PRR would have made a move similar to the K-4s and L-1s classes and developed a modern p assenger loco, say a 4-6-4 under an M-1's boiler, utilizing standard machinery for both. Perhaps if the J-1 would have been looked into before the war, we co uld have had a passenger version of the big brute in say a 4-8-4 wheel arrangem ent and the J would have had the more traditional belpair firebox on the boiler . Would it have been more successful? Maybe they could have developed an Alto ona redesigned Lima Allegheny................... Matt Link Remembering the PRR in Crestline ********************************************************************** This message and any attachments are intended for the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not forward, copy, print, use or disclose this communication to others; also please notify the sender by replying to this message, and then delete it from your system. The Timken Company ********************************************************************** ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] Sat Harrisburg Train Excursion question From: "Bennett Levin" Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 06:54:15 -0400 No Stops, No Run-bys! Bennett STEVEGG1@aol.com wrote: > > Greetings all, > Does anyone know if this Sat's special from Harrisburg to Harrisburg will have any stops/ runbys? > Thanks!!! > Steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] Toluidine Red From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 08:36:59 -0400 Claus: The Toluidine red I have seen first hand in the museums (under a mixture of tungsten and daylight illumination) has a vermilion look to it to me. I know from experience that Floquill's caboose red, under tungsten lights, looks about the same, when it it used in very small quantities, i.e., the background of the loco number boards or window sash. If you want a more vermilion look, add just a touch of reefer orange. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Claus Schlund" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 09, 2002 11:33 PM Subject: [PRR] Toluidine Red > Hi, > > Does anyone on the list know if one of the > available colors in the Floquil (solvent-based) > paint line is a reasonable match for the > "toluidine red" used on PRR keystone number > plates? > > I'm not trying to be the "paint police" > here - I'm not seeking an exact match, > just something that is a sufficiently close > approximation. > > Thanks - Claus > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] Toluidine Red From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 08:26:11 -0500 Lew sez: >The Toluidine red I have seen first hand in the museums (under a mixture of >tungsten and daylight illumination) has a vermilion look to it to me. I >know from experience that Floquill's caboose red, under tungsten lights, >looks about the same, when it it used in very small quantities, i.e., the >background of the loco number boards or window sash. If you want a more >vermilion look, add just a touch of reefer orange. The recipe I was given a few years back was caboose red with a drop of black, which looks very close to me. I just painted a black plastic keystone with caboose red, and it looked pretty good, as the black background is hard to completely paint over! BTW, my paints were Poly Scale, but the recipe was for floquil Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Electrics over the mountain From: "Doug Drew" Date: 10 Apr 2002 11:45:41 -0400 Reply to: Electrics over the mountain wrote: "The PRR would still have needed something for west of Pittsburgh had they electirfied that far. I believe that the cost of having done the electrification to Pittsburgh would have resulted in a debt load that would have precluded the development of any further steam and in all probability may have resulted in the PRR testing or buying diesels as early as the FT for the west end. " Yes, look at what happened after the NY-DC-HBG electrification. So many useable steam locomotives were freed up, it essentially stopped any PRR steam design in its tracks (of course, the Depression didn't help there, either). Given PRR's cow-towing to its on-line coal interests that resulted in its ill-fated post-war attempts at "modern steam", it seems unlikely that it would have given up useable steam locomotives it had on-hand, fed by on-line coal mines, in order to incur yet MORE debt for diesel locomotives, post Pitts Div. electrification. I think PRR would have kept running the wheels off those K4's, M1's, I1's, etc. on Lines West and the non-electrified lines east, as long as it could I think one of the things that finally drove many railroads to diesels in the early 50's was John L. Lewis and his coal strikes, but these were years in the future. Not sure if it was the price increases the strikes engendered, or the instability of the source of locomotive fuel. In college, I thought about this Pittsburgh division electrification a lot. I knew of the Big Liz electric locomotive that was built during the time of the Paoli electrification, and I think that was built with the idea of electrifying over the mountain, way back then. As it said in the Staufer book, it was too far ahead of its time, and tended to crush the wooden underframe cars of the day when in pusher service. At the time I wasn't aware of the Sam Rea Line idea. To me, it didn't make sense to have (relatively) high-speed mainlines on either side of the route between Altoona and Gallitzin, only to have everything get bunched up on the mountain (great for railfans, a pain for operating men). My idea was to instead drill a pair of double-track tunnels straight east from Portage to a spot near the alignment of the old Portage Railroad where *old* route 22 now comes down the mountain. A high-speed alignment east of there lead to where the branch to Hollidaysburg diverges from the main near Alto tower. The new grade would have been challenging but not as much as the alignment over Horse Shoe Curve. The new line east of the east portals would have required some substantial earthwork, but hey, we're talking about the PRR, here. The summit of the grade would have been much lower, there would be far less curvature, and traffic of the line wouldn't have been as congested due to the elimination of helper service. I think even electrified, the Horse Shoe Curve line would have still required helper service. Of course, the tunnels would have been named the Edgar Thomson Tunnels... Ah, yes, speculation about what was never to be! Doug Drew ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: [PRR] Toluidine Red From: Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 12:49:53 EDT TUSCAN red comes from the color of the clays in the 'Tuscan region of Italy - I'd bet that PRR found a similar color "on line" and did not import the clay from Italy. FLORETINE red must mean that the soil around Florence is much redder. Can anyone explain the derivation of "Toluidine" and how it is different from "Florentine" or Burlington's "Chinese Red"? Dick Ross Cleveland ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] Sat Harrisburg Train Excursion question From: "Ken Meyer" Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 20:09:29 -0400 Is there a timetable of sorts? Ken Bennett Levin wrote: > No Stops, No Run-bys! > > Bennett > > STEVEGG1@aol.com wrote: > > > > Greetings all, > > Does anyone know if this Sat's special from Harrisburg to Harrisburg will have any stops/ runbys? > > Thanks!!! > > Steve > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: PRR switch machine From: "Ken Meyer" Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 21:46:36 -0400 Between Washington and Philly the PRR used a very distinct switch machine(?) on the mainline. Is there any info/pictures at on the web? Keystone articles? Ken ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR switch machine From: "Bruce F Smith" Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 21:12:07 -0500 (CDT) On Wed, 10 Apr 2002, Ken Meyer wrote: > Between Washington and Philly the PRR used a very distinct switch > machine(?) on the mainline. Is there any info/pictures at on the web? > Keystone articles? > Ken Ken, I have a 1938 Railway Age article that details the Harrisburg electrification, and teh "electropneumatic switch machines" installed in the interlockings. Might these be similar? Happy Rails Bruce ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Rockville bridge From: "Earl Myers" Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 00:38:41 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C1E0F1.3A81A680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gents; Is there a general outline drawing available for this bridge?? Maybe = enough info for a fella to build a reasonably accurate model of it or a = compressed version?? Earl Myers ------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C1E0F1.3A81A680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gents;
 Is there a general outline = drawing available=20 for this bridge?? Maybe enough info for a fella to build a reasonably = accurate=20 model of it or a compressed version??
Earl Myers
------=_NextPart_000_004F_01C1E0F1.3A81A680-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of PRR-Talk Digest ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don Millbranth" Subject: [PRR] Toludine Red Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 20:53:12 -0500 Gentlemen .. You might do a search on Google.com and you find several sources of info on the subject. Good luck, Don ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 08:51:22 -0400 Subject: [PRR] "Rockville Limited" Excursion Handout From: Jerry Britton The Harrisburg Chapter, NRHS, prepared a six page handout about the "Rockville Limited" excursion, which runs this Saturday and Sunday. The handout contains a listing of sites/references along the route, along with milepost designations. This may be of particular interest to those chasing the train. There is also some history on the restored E8's (by Bennett Levin) and on the Rockville Bridge (by Dan Cupper). There is also some info on the makeup (consist) of the train. I have scanned this handout and posted it to Keystone Crossings in PDF format. It is 444K and is available at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/ ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bud Kaiser" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers new gon Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 09:11:43 -0400 Hi all, About a month ago there was a discussion on the new Walther's gon regarding the coupler height. I have now finished three of them and found what I believe caused the high couplers. When the truck screw is inserted, it pushes the body up separating it from the bolster. It looks like the screw not only threads into the hub on the bolster but also threads into the boss that the bolster sits on. I glued all the bolsters to the underside of the floor and now the coupler height is correct - even using Kadee 58 couplers. Thought I'd let you all know what I did, it may help someone else. Bud ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Walthers Lounge Car Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 10:07:58 -0400 Listers, Bought the new Walthers PRR Lounge Car (which I believe is actually the Congo Parlor Car). I need to know what name to put on the side? Also got Arnold's drive in but that an off-topic story:) Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:00:37 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Gary Spear's PRR Passenger Car Site From: Jerry Britton Should have mentioned it a week or so ago, but I forgot... Gary Spear's excellent PRR Passenger Equipment site is now at http://varnish.pennsyrr.com The new site still retains some links to some sections on other sites, but Gary is consolidating and this gives him a simple URL under which to organize. Enjoy! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SHanlon@dnr.state.md.us Subject: RE: [PRR] Gary Spear's PRR Passenger Car Site Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:23:27 -0400 what boggles my mind is that passenger service was not a profitable enterprise, yet the PRR and other roads pours millions into the programs. the amount of equipment needed to run a first class service is much larger than cars. you have flatware, china, pillows, blankets, etc. boggles my mind. fast forward to today and Congress wants rail service to be profitable. i'd love for Congress to cite an example of a system that has a profitable passenger service that includes 1000+ mile service. -steve hanlon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:33:35 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - DBIConstruction@aol.com From: Jerry Britton Listers: Over the past several hours, someone at "DBIConstruction@aol.com" has been sending abusive and threatening e-mails to senders of PRR-talk posts. The person is indicating it is a business e-mail address and we should not be using it. Either they are using a shared account and one of the other users subscribed, or they are just...well...(insert adjective here)!!! In any event, they have been removed. I apologize to those who have privately received these arrogant messages from this "business". ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmaster ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 10:36:41 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: RE: [PRR] Gary Spear's PRR Passenger Car Site Steve, >what boggles my mind is that passenger service was not a profitable >enterprise, yet the PRR and other roads pours millions into the programs. >the amount of equipment needed to run a first class service is much larger >than cars. you have flatware, china, pillows, blankets, etc. boggles my >mind. I found one of the most significant passages in the Blue Ribbon Fleet book was the one that indicated that the Broadway Limited was a tremendous failure! With ridership figures often in the single or low double digits, the train was clearly(?) there for PR for the PRR and not much else! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:39:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Gary Spear's PRR Passenger Car Site From: Jerry Britton On 4/12/02 11:23 AM, SHanlon@dnr.state.md.us (SHanlon@dnr.state.md.us) wrote: > what boggles my mind is that passenger service was not a profitable > enterprise, yet the PRR and other roads pours millions into the programs. > the amount of equipment needed to run a first class service is much larger > than cars. you have flatware, china, pillows, blankets, etc. boggles my > mind. > > fast forward to today and Congress wants rail service to be profitable. i'd > love for Congress to cite an example of a system that has a profitable > passenger service that includes 1000+ mile service. > Welsh's "Pennsy Streamliners: The Blue Ribbon Fleet" from Kalmbach is required reading on this subject. The PRR's passenger operations were, overall, very profitable through WWII. Some routes lost money but were deemed "absolutely required" due to the competition and prestige involved. Other routes made good money. My recollection from the book was that, following the way, the improvements of the highway system, larger planes and more airlines, and bus systems started chipping away at the rail passenger system. The large purchases of equipment in the late 1940's were an effort to recapture lost customers. It didn't work! Circa 1950 and through the 1950's many routes/trains were not only downsized, but also combined. To hedge their profits, the PRR invested in both airline and bus (Greyhound) companies. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Gary Spear's PRR Passenger Car Site Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:59:55 -0400 Jerry, There are a million reasons that rail passenger service became unprofitable, but I do recall the last effort, in the mid-1960's, to make the "Broadway" a break even operation. It needed 125 first class passengers to do so. But, it also took 125 PRR and Pullman employees to operate the train between NY and Chicago.. Like ocean liners, passenger trains are too labor intensive. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 11:39 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Gary Spear's PRR Passenger Car Site > On 4/12/02 11:23 AM, SHanlon@dnr.state.md.us (SHanlon@dnr.state.md.us) > wrote: > > > what boggles my mind is that passenger service was not a profitable > > enterprise, yet the PRR and other roads pours millions into the programs. > > the amount of equipment needed to run a first class service is much larger > > than cars. you have flatware, china, pillows, blankets, etc. boggles my > > mind. > > > > fast forward to today and Congress wants rail service to be profitable. i'd > > love for Congress to cite an example of a system that has a profitable > > passenger service that includes 1000+ mile service. > > > Welsh's "Pennsy Streamliners: The Blue Ribbon Fleet" from Kalmbach is > required reading on this subject. > > The PRR's passenger operations were, overall, very profitable through WWII. > Some routes lost money but were deemed "absolutely required" due to the > competition and prestige involved. Other routes made good money. > > My recollection from the book was that, following the way, the improvements > of the highway system, larger planes and more airlines, and bus systems > started chipping away at the rail passenger system. > > The large purchases of equipment in the late 1940's were an effort to > recapture lost customers. It didn't work! > > Circa 1950 and through the 1950's many routes/trains were not only > downsized, but also combined. > > To hedge their profits, the PRR invested in both airline and bus (Greyhound) > companies. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:06:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Gary Spear's PRR Passenger Car Site From: Jerry Britton On 4/12/02 11:59 AM, Gregg Mahlkov (mahlkov@gtcom.net) wrote: > There are a million reasons that rail passenger service became unprofitable, > but I do recall the last effort, in the mid-1960's, to make the "Broadway" a > break even operation. > It needed 125 first class passengers to do so. But, it also took 125 PRR and > Pullman employees to operate the train between NY and Chicago.. Like ocean > liners, passenger trains are too labor intensive. > I'm going a bit tangent here, to the modern day... I think Amtrak/whoever_the_will_be is on the right track (no pun intended) with their new/forthcoming commuter corridors like Harrisburg to Philadelphia, etc. There are some long distance commuters, and a lot of business traffic to Harrisburg as well as along the Boston-Washington corridor, as we all know. The new cars which promise AC power and Internet access have wonderful potential. They need to offer tickets that come somewhat close to driving, making up the difference in quantity of tickets sold. Many who drive now may very well opt for the train if they can actually get work done during the trip. One of the sticking points will be how close the train can get the commuter to their eventual destination. Harrisburg is developing a commuter rail system which I think will be successful on several corridors. On others I'm not so sure. One benefit may be leaving your car at the lot in Carlisle and riding the local rail to the Harrisburg International Airport. You won't have to pay to park at the airport when you go away for a week. Just an opinion. Afterthought: I've been thinking -- for years -- that there would be a lot of sense in having the former Northern Central Branch reactivated for commuter rail. You already have MARC coming north for some distance, and the RoW is still available from Harrisburg to New Freedom. There's just a stretch in northern Maryland that is missing. There may not be a lot of end to end traffic. Rather, I see some midpoint sending people in opposite directions for commuting. Then I see people running end to end for entertainment, such as an Orioles game in Baltimore or the National Civil War Museum in Harrisburg. Just examples. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Gary Spear's PRR Passenger Car Site Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:32:45 -0500 There aren't any, and this includes Japan, especially if costs are accounted for the way the PRR did when it operated the service. -----Original Message----- From: SHanlon@dnr.state.md.us [mailto:SHanlon@dnr.state.md.us] Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 10:23 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Gary Spear's PRR Passenger Car Site what boggles my mind is that passenger service was not a profitable enterprise, yet the PRR and other roads pours millions into the programs. the amount of equipment needed to run a first class service is much larger than cars. you have flatware, china, pillows, blankets, etc. boggles my mind. fast forward to today and Congress wants rail service to be profitable. i'd love for Congress to cite an example of a system that has a profitable passenger service that includes 1000+ mile service. -steve hanlon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:57:41 -0400 From: Rick Miskell Subject: [PRR] Herr's Island Stockyard (Pgh) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C1E221.A1C5FDB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Listers: Does anyone know of a source of information on the PRR operation of the = stock yard on Herr's Island in Pittsburgh? Was it mainly a slaughter = house operation or were the livestock unloaded and rested here, or both? = The print of the track work I have (1955) suggests both, with at least = two meat processing companies appearing to be located on the island. One = of the Pennsy/Pgh books suggests it also had icing facilities for = reefers but the print doesn't ID that. The early 20th century picture in = the book shows a small engine terminal on the "mainland" near CQ tower = but doesn't give much detail. Any help (even pointing in the right = direction) would be appreciated. Rick Miskell=20 #7100 (new !) PRRT&HS ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C1E221.A1C5FDB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Listers:
Does anyone know of a source of = information on the=20 PRR operation of the stock yard on Herr's Island in Pittsburgh?  = Was=20 it mainly a slaughter house operation or were the livestock = unloaded and=20 rested here, or both?  The print of the track work I have = (1955)=20 suggests both, with at least two meat processing companies = appearing to be=20 located on the island. One of the Pennsy/Pgh books suggests it also = had=20 icing facilities for reefers but the print doesn't ID that. The early = 20th=20 century picture in the book shows a small engine terminal on the = "mainland" near=20 CQ tower but doesn't give much detail.  Any help (even pointing in = the=20 right direction) would be appreciated.
 
Rick Miskell
#7100 (new !)
PRRT&HS
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C1E221.A1C5FDB0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:10:46 EDT Subject: [PRR] Passenger service (was Gary Spear's PRR Passenger Car Site) In a message dated 4/12/02 11:41:39 AM Central Daylight Time, cadwelml@bp.com writes: << There aren't any, and this includes Japan, especially if costs are accounted for the way the PRR did when it operated the service. >> I believe the Japanese rails at one time had a debt which would have placed them third or fourth among the nations of the world. But the alternative was either the population couldn't go anywhere (cars are not an option) or, if it was pay-as-you-go, only the very, very affluent could travel. As a country we are approaching the status of paved parking lot for most regions. It is one thing for the 90 miles from Chicago to Rockford. But it is now occuring in smaller cities like Milwaukee. If I live as long as my father did, I will live 30 more years. I shudder to think what a car trip will be like in 30 years. It won't even be fun for the SUV drivers. We are still in love with our cars, but, with the population growth, I can't see that continuing forever on shorter trips,including long commutes . Then the decision is whether we stay home, subsidize an alternative system ,or if pay-as-you-go, again only the very, very affluent travel at all. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:58:36 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Herr's Island Stockyard (Pgh) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3101464716_54480_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My brother John works at the DER (or whatever acronym they go by these days) on Herr's Island (now known by its more fashionable moniker of Washington's Landing). He may be able to provide you with references to the Island's former use. I believe I remember a photo gallery in one of the other buildings showing aspects of the slaughterhouse days. His e-mail address is: jharper@state.pa.us Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- From: Rick Miskell To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Herr's Island Stockyard (Pgh) Date: Fri, 12 Apr, 2002, 11:57 Listers: Does anyone know of a source of information on the PRR operation of the stock yard on Herr's Island in Pittsburgh? Was it mainly a slaughter house operation or were the livestock unloaded and rested here, or both? The print of the track work I have (1955) suggests both, with at least two meat processing companies appearing to be located on the island. One of the Pennsy/Pgh books suggests it also had icing facilities for reefers but the print doesn't ID that. The early 20th century picture in the book shows a small engine terminal on the "mainland" near CQ tower but doesn't give much detail. Any help (even pointing in the right direction) would be appreciated. Rick Miskell #7100 (new !) PRRT&HS --MS_Mac_OE_3101464716_54480_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] Herr's Island Stockyard (Pgh) My brother John works at the DER (or whatever acronym they go by these days= ) on Herr's Island (now known by its more fashionable moniker of  Washi= ngton's Landing).  He may be able to provide you with references to the= Island's former use.  I believe I remember a photo gallery in one of t= he other buildings showing aspects of the slaughterhouse days.

His e-mail address is:  jharper@state.pa.us


Don Harper
Texas A&M Marine Lab
5007 Avenue U
Galveston, TX  77551
409/740-4540


----------
From: Rick Miskell <rmiskell+@pitt.edu>
To: PRR-Talk <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Subject: [PRR] Herr's Island Stockyard (Pgh)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr, 2002, 11:57


Listers:
Does anyone know of a source of information on the PRR operation of the sto= ck yard on Herr's Island in Pittsburgh?  Was it mainly a slaughter hous= e operation or were the livestock unloaded and rested here, or both?  T= he print of the track work I have (1955) suggests both, with at least two me= at processing companies appearing to be located on the island. One of the Pe= nnsy/Pgh books suggests it also had icing facilities for reefers but the pri= nt doesn't ID that. The early 20th century picture in the book shows a small= engine terminal on the "mainland" near CQ tower but doesn't give = much detail.  Any help (even pointing in the right direction) would be = appreciated.
 
Rick Miskell
#7100 (new !)
PRRT&HS

--MS_Mac_OE_3101464716_54480_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 17:19:28 -0400 From: Rob McKeever Subject: Re: [PRR] Herr's Island Stockyard (Pgh) All, Historic Pittsburgh (University of Pittsburgh) has several maps online that can be zoomed in for street level detail. The following link has Herr's Island in 1872; I'm sure some of the more recent maps on their site also have the island. Herr's Island detail (Old Allegheny City ward 8): http://digital.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/maps/showmap.pl?client=maps&image=1872p096 1890: Herr's Island is on plates 13 and 14: http://digital.library.pitt.edu/maps/90v02ind.html 1925: Herr's Island detail (Plate 18a): http://digital.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/maps/showmap.pl?client=maps&image=25v0418a Maps main page: http://digital.library.pitt.edu/maps/browse.html Best of luck finding what you are looking for. Rob McKeever robmckii@aol.com Manassas VA (RF&P type who happened upon the maps while doing genealogy research... :) -- -- Rob McKeever robmckii@aol.com Manassas VA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 17:36:26 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Herr's Island Stockyard (Pgh) --part1_3e.1c97e503.29e8ad5a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick, My mother worked on Herr's Island many years ago in Armour's accounting office. Armour had a slaughtering and packing house there. This was mainly a hog operation. The Armour Star hams and another brand I can't recall which used a green clover leaf as it logo were all canned on Herr's Island. To a lesser extent beef was also slaughtered there. If you look at the time table for FW8, you will see about a 10 hour layover at Herr's Island. I was under the impression that this was to allow unloading for Armour and other packers and emergency rest for livestock continuing on to Baltimore, Philly and NY. West bound FW 8 dropped off hogs from Lancaster. Somewhere, it may be in the Keystone article on FW8, I remember reading that Herr's Island was only an emergency rest stop for livestock. The trains were rested in mid-Ohio (don't recall the location) and timed to make NY before the 36 hour rule applied. There is information about the operation and history of Herr's Island at the John Heinz History Center of the Western Pennsylvania Historical Society. The Island became a haven for meat packers early. The Germans who settled Troy Hill raised large numbers of hogs and would run them down "pig alley" to Herr's Island. Pig Alley is the colloquial name for the very step road up the hillside opposite Herr's Island on the right descending bank of the Allegheny River. I have never seen any icing facilities on the Island. Rich Orr --part1_3e.1c97e503.29e8ad5a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick,

My mother worked on Herr's Island many years ago in Armour's accounting office.  Armour had a slaughtering and packing house there.  This was mainly a hog operation.  The Armour Star hams and another brand I can't recall which used a green clover leaf as it logo were all canned on Herr's Island.  To a lesser extent beef was also slaughtered there.  

If you look at the time table for FW8, you will see about a 10 hour layover at Herr's Island.  I was under the impression that this was to allow unloading for Armour and other packers and emergency rest for livestock continuing on to Baltimore, Philly and NY.  West bound FW 8 dropped off hogs from Lancaster.

Somewhere, it may be in the Keystone article on FW8, I remember reading that Herr's Island was only an emergency rest stop for livestock.  The trains were rested in mid-Ohio (don't recall the location) and timed to make NY before the 36 hour rule applied.

There is information about the operation and history of Herr's Island at the John Heinz History Center of the Western Pennsylvania Historical Society.

The Island became a haven for meat packers early.  The Germans who settled Troy Hill raised large numbers of hogs and would run them down "pig alley" to Herr's Island.  Pig Alley is the colloquial name for the very step road up the hillside opposite Herr's Island on the right descending bank of the Allegheny River.

I have never seen any icing facilities on the Island.

Rich Orr --part1_3e.1c97e503.29e8ad5a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 17:49:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] "Rockville Limited" Excursion Handout Darn WebTv. Can't access the page. Can someone post the info for chasing the train. Thax--Mark L--( Must buy real PC !) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 18:07:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Herr's Island Stockyard (Pgh) (2) --part1_10.1d2ec00d.29e8b493_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick, Try these links for more information. davidsr01.home.mindspring.com/html/smell.htm digital.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/maps/showmap.pl?client=maps&image=1872p096 1872 map of island before railroads digital.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/maps/showmap.pl?client=maps&image=90v02p13 1890 map http://digital.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/maps/showmap.pl?client=maps& image=90v02p14 1890 map of Island shows B&O tracks but no PRR tracks Also, I have photocopies of the Sanborn maps for the Island. There is nothing that looks like an icing facility. These maps are on microfilm in the Microfilm Room of Carnegie Library in Oakland (I am assuming you are still associated with Pitt in some manner because of your e-mail address). Rich Orr --part1_10.1d2ec00d.29e8b493_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rick,

Try these links for more information.

davidsr01.home.mindspring.com/html/smell.htm


digital.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/maps/showmap.pl?client=maps&image=1872p096

1872 map of island before railroads

digital.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/maps/showmap.pl?client=maps&image=90v02p13

1890 map

http://digital.library.pitt.edu/cgi-bin/maps/showmap.pl?client=maps&image=90v02p14

1890 map of Island shows B&O tracks but no PRR tracks



Also, I have photocopies of the Sanborn maps for the Island.  There is nothing that looks like an icing facility.  These maps are on microfilm in the Microfilm Room of Carnegie Library in Oakland (I am assuming you are still associated with Pitt in some manner because of your e-mail address).

Rich Orr --part1_10.1d2ec00d.29e8b493_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pennsyk4s" Subject: [PRR] Acela Express Tough Rival of Shuttle Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 18:34:22 -0400 Thought the group may be interested in this ATA news brief from the NY Times. April 12, 2002 New Northeast Corridor Train Is Now a By MATTHEW L. WALD WASHINGTON, April 11 — With the Bush administration and Congress uncertain about what should happen to Amtrak, and the railroad discussing the possible abandonment of its long-distance network at the end of the summer, the General Accounting Office provided a different perspective today: the system is already just about gone. JayEtta Z. Hecker, director of physical infrastructure issues at the accounting office, told a House subcommittee on railroads that of the 46 states the system served, 34 had fewer than 1,000 passengers a day. Ms. Hecker said that in 12 states there were fewer than 100 passengers a day. In some places only one train a day runs in each direction, or sometimes none. But, Ms. Hecker said, Amtrak was much more successful on shorter routes where it could compete more effectively with airplanes. New York, New Jersey and California had more than 5,000 passengers a day. Amtrak carries about 64,000 passengers a day, Ms. Hecker said, but outside California and the Washington-New York-Boston corridor, that number is only about 20,000. In contrast, interstate buses carry nearly 1 million people a day and the airlines carry about 1.8 million. That is despite recent improvements in the use of Amtrak. The National Association of Railroad Passengers, a nonprofit group, said the fiscal year that ended last Sept. 30 was the fifth straight year in which ridership grew. Although airline passengers have declined because of fear of terrorism, Amtrak's ridership was higher from November to February, compared with the same period the year before. While Amtrak struggles with long-distance service, Acela Express, its high-speed rail service in the Boston-to-Washington corridor, appears to have drawn even in ridership with the airline shuttles serving that route in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks, The Associated Press reported today. Acela ridership stood at 219,917 in March, or about 300 a train. The airlines do not issue corresponding numbers for the shuttles, but filings with the government's Bureau of Transportation Statistics show that Delta Air Lines and US Airways reported 215,366 passengers on the Boston shuttle routes in December, down from 330,040 in December 2000. As for Amtrak's four transcontinental routes, Ms. Hecker said they were "just not designed to serve the market." Trains that pass through rural states once a day or less, in the middle of the night, are not a viable means of transportation, she said, and the Amtrak strategy to make the system more useful by having more frequent trains had failed. The Bush budget listed $521 million as a place holder for Amtrak, but the administration appears not to have a position on the issue at this point. It has been discussing franchising parts of the system, or handing them out to private companies under competitive contracts, but does not appear to have decided Jeff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Dieselization on the Skuylkill Branch Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 21:22:24 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0094_01C1E268.23B86DD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello all, I am new to the list so excuse me if this question has been = previously discussed. Can anyone tell me about the PRR's dieselization = on the Skuylkill Branch. I know it was in 1953, but can anyone name a = month? I am also interested in pictures of this branch north of = Reading. Thanks for you help. Jeff Smith Manheim, PA ------=_NextPart_000_0094_01C1E268.23B86DD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello all,  I am new to the list = so excuse me=20 if this question has been previously discussed.  Can anyone tell me = about=20 the PRR's dieselization on the Skuylkill Branch.  I know it was in = 1953,=20 but can anyone name a month?  I am also interested in pictures of = this=20 branch north of Reading.  Thanks for you help.
 
Jeff Smith
Manheim, PA
------=_NextPart_000_0094_01C1E268.23B86DD0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 21:32:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Rockville Flyer Anyone on the Rockville Flyer with a cell phone? We have decided to shot the train at the Whitford Bridge. (P&T flyover) I can give you my cell number so that we know exactly where the train is. My scanner is broke. Contact me off list. Thanks Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] oops Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 21:48:19 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C1E26B.C25430C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear list, I apologize for the horrible spelling mistakes in my previous posting. = I am not a freak. I just assumed that spell check would fix everything = before the message went out. I found out that the spellchecker was = turned off. Jeff Smith ------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C1E26B.C25430C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear list,
 
I apologize for the horrible spelling = mistakes in=20 my previous posting.  I am not a freak.  I just assumed that = spell=20 check would fix everything before the message went out.  I found = out that=20 the spellchecker was turned off.
 
 
Jeff Smith
------=_NextPart_000_0020_01C1E26B.C25430C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Passenger service (was Gary Spear's PRR Passenger Car Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:51:24 -0500 I don't disagree with you, but.. We quibble over 500 million for Amtrak, yet we spend billions (in Federal dollars)on a deep tunnel project so Bostonians can use their cars to get to and from the city faster. And I'll guarantee you that the long houl trains that Amtrak operates are not the rolling resorts that some congressmen would have you believe. In many areas, they are the only form of long distance public trasnportation available (other than the automobile). -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com] Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 12:11 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Passenger service (was Gary Spear's PRR Passenger Car Site) In a message dated 4/12/02 11:41:39 AM Central Daylight Time, cadwelml@bp.com writes: << There aren't any, and this includes Japan, especially if costs are accounted for the way the PRR did when it operated the service. >> I believe the Japanese rails at one time had a debt which would have placed them third or fourth among the nations of the world. But the alternative was either the population couldn't go anywhere (cars are not an option) or, if it was pay-as-you-go, only the very, very affluent could travel. As a country we are approaching the status of paved parking lot for most regions. It is one thing for the 90 miles from Chicago to Rockford. But it is now occuring in smaller cities like Milwaukee. If I live as long as my father did, I will live 30 more years. I shudder to think what a car trip will be like in 30 years. It won't even be fun for the SUV drivers. We are still in love with our cars, but, with the population growth, I can't see that continuing forever on shorter trips,including long commutes . Then the decision is whether we stay home, subsidize an alternative system ,or if pay-as-you-go, again only the very, very affluent travel at all. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Toluidine red Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 22:28:41 -0400 About the discussions on Toluidine red; for the record! While the original Tuscan red could have come from Tuscany clays and Florentine red could have come from clay around Florence, Toluidine red came from coal tar or petroleum. It is a product of organic chemistry. TOLUIDINE RED: Also known as Helio fast red...A red toner prepared by diazotizing meta-nitro-para-toluidine and coupling it with beta-naphthol. In color , it is yellowish or scarlet red.... TONER: An organic pigment which does not contain inorganic pigment or inorganic carrying base.... The aforementioned definitions are from The National Paint Dictionary, Stewart Research Laboratory, 1942. I used this edition because of its time frame. It is interesting to note that I used toluidine red pigment to color two insulating materials I invented while at the Westinghouse Research Laboratories. All Westinghouse insulating materials were red at that time. Carl P. Izzo Industrial Paint Consultant ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] Rockville Limited: Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 08:20:21 -0400 Rockville Limited by Mount Joy @ 8:02. Cloudy skies are a big bummer! Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS http://www.wsbcos.com.trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Acela Express Tough Rival of Shuttle Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 10:59:42 -0500 The article states: "Trains that pass through rural states once a day or less, in the middle of the night, are not a viable means of transportation, she said, and the Amtrak strategy to make the system more useful by having more frequent trains had failed." Where, has AMTRAK expaned the frequency of its long distance service? I can't think of any line, other than the train to Texas,from try-weekly to daily. Not much of a strategy. -----Original Message----- From: pennsyk4s [mailto:pennsyk4s@attbi.com] Sent: Friday, April 12, 2002 5:34 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Acela Express Tough Rival of Shuttle Thought the group may be interested in this ATA news brief from the NY Times. April 12, 2002 New Northeast Corridor Train Is Now a By MATTHEW L. WALD WASHINGTON, April 11 - With the Bush administration and Congress uncertain about what should happen to Amtrak, and the railroad discussing the possible abandonment of its long-distance network at the end of the summer, the General Accounting Office provided a different perspective today: the system is already just about gone. JayEtta Z. Hecker, director of physical infrastructure issues at the accounting office, told a House subcommittee on railroads that of the 46 states the system served, 34 had fewer than 1,000 passengers a day. Ms. Hecker said that in 12 states there were fewer than 100 passengers a day. In some places only one train a day runs in each direction, or sometimes none. But, Ms. Hecker said, Amtrak was much more successful on shorter routes where it could compete more effectively with airplanes. New York, New Jersey and California had more than 5,000 passengers a day. Amtrak carries about 64,000 passengers a day, Ms. Hecker said, but outside California and the Washington-New York-Boston corridor, that number is only about 20,000. In contrast, interstate buses carry nearly 1 million people a day and the airlines carry about 1.8 million. That is despite recent improvements in the use of Amtrak. The National Association of Railroad Passengers, a nonprofit group, said the fiscal year that ended last Sept. 30 was the fifth straight year in which ridership grew. Although airline passengers have declined because of fear of terrorism, Amtrak's ridership was higher from November to February, compared with the same period the year before. While Amtrak struggles with long-distance service, Acela Express, its high-speed rail service in the Boston-to-Washington corridor, appears to have drawn even in ridership with the airline shuttles serving that route in the aftermath of the Sept. 11 attacks, The Associated Press reported today. Acela ridership stood at 219,917 in March, or about 300 a train. The airlines do not issue corresponding numbers for the shuttles, but filings with the government's Bureau of Transportation Statistics show that Delta Air Lines and US Airways reported 215,366 passengers on the Boston shuttle routes in December, down from 330,040 in December 2000. As for Amtrak's four transcontinental routes, Ms. Hecker said they were "just not designed to serve the market." Trains that pass through rural states once a day or less, in the middle of the night, are not a viable means of transportation, she said, and the Amtrak strategy to make the system more useful by having more frequent trains had failed. The Bush budget listed $521 million as a place holder for Amtrak, but the administration appears not to have a position on the issue at this point. It has been discussing franchising parts of the system, or handing them out to private companies under competitive contracts, but does not appear to have decided Jeff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WBROUTE@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 12:13:49 EDT Subject: [PRR] steam colors 2-10-4 j1a --part1_ea.25f63889.29e9b33d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I need help. I am looking for the proper colors to paint a brass ho scale J1a for example smoke box, fire box, boiler, tender, cab roof ect. All the books and photos I have of these locos are after they have been service for several year and heavy weathered. So I am unable to pick out the proper colors. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance Erik S Crawley --part1_ea.25f63889.29e9b33d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I need help. I am looking for the proper colors to paint a brass ho scale J1a for example smoke box, fire box, boiler, tender, cab roof ect. All the books and photos I have of these locos are after they have been service for several year and heavy weathered. So I am unable to pick out the proper colors. Any help would be greatly appreciated.    Thanks in advance    Erik S Crawley
--part1_ea.25f63889.29e9b33d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 14:14:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Cabin car stove help! You people on the list in the know. Are there any identifying marks or stamps on a Cabin car stove. I have the opportunity to buy one but its 400 miles away! I have friends in the area who can check it out for me before I make the treck.---Mark L-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Oerm2133@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 21:17:09 EDT Subject: [PRR] Motive power color question #?? I've searched through the database on the subject of the lettering and striping colors and have several questions. I have LifeLike's HO scale FA1 and early release FA2. I also have an older set of Champion EH-78P . . . Bronze Gold . . and EH-78F ... dulux gold . . . . I also have older Microscale RH#67 , RH-21, and RH-39. If I am looking at these side by side, the FA1 & FA2 both appear to have a bronze color, the Champion EH-78P sets appears to be a gold color and the rest what seems to be described as buff. The RH-21 set also has a set of numbers that are much more yellow on the sheet. With the discussion of new releases of decals, I am curious if my interpretation of the colors is close or out in left field. Is the stripe and lettering color on the P2K units as it should be? Thanks for any information and the patience of the people who will probably answer this for the twentieth time. Don Luke ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TJ LInk" Subject: [PRR] Livestock trains Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 21:30:26 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C1E332.6D576AC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rich, List Rich Orr wrote: "Somewhere, it may be in the Keystone article on FW8, I remember reading = that=20 Herr's Island was only an emergency rest stop for livestock. The trains = were=20 rested in mid-Ohio (don't recall the location) and timed to make NY = before=20 the 36 hour rule applied." I think that the stop was in Crestline, OH as there were extensive = stockyard facilities there just for that purpose. Matt Link ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C1E332.6D576AC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Rich, List
 
Rich Orr wrote:
 
"Somewhere, it may be in the Keystone article on FW8, I remember = reading=20 that
Herr's Island was only an emergency rest stop for = livestock.  The=20 trains were
rested in mid-Ohio (don't recall the location) and timed = to make=20 NY before
the 36 hour rule applied."
 
I think that the stop was in Crestline, OH as there were extensive=20 stockyard facilities there just for that purpose.
 
Matt Link
 
 


 
------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C1E332.6D576AC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] steam colors 2-10-4 j1a Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 22:19:22 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0564_01C1E339.437581E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Erik--No one else has offered up any help so let me throw this out = and see if it brings any comments. This is what I would do to paint = your J1-- Frame from the pilot on back, drivers (tape the treads, puleeeeze paint = the tires), rods/valve gear, trucks/wheels including tender = trucks--Scalecoat I engine black. Everything above the frame including the cylinders and the = tender--Scalecoat I Brunswick Green. (In the past this has been too = green; bottles of this color that I have used in the past couple of = years have been much darker--and to my eye just right.) Cab roof--Leave it Brunswick Green. Sorry I can't find a source at the = moment, the later engines--I think from the M1 on--did not get a red = roof. Tender deck--Oxide Red from your choice of vendor. Smoke Box and Firebox--I like Floquil SP Lark Dark Gray for a post WW II = engine. If I were painting an engine modeling the 30's, I would use = something with more silver, but photos show a more gray mix after the = war. I probably would leave the firebox Brunswick Green; difficult to = mask appliances and pipes. Follow Scalecoat's directions for baking the parts after painting and = you will have a great finish. Have fun! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_0564_01C1E339.437581E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Erik--No one else has offered up any = help so let=20 me throw this out and see if it brings any comments.  This is what = I would=20 do to paint your J1--
 
Frame from the pilot on back, drivers = (tape the=20 treads, puleeeeze paint the tires), rods/valve gear, trucks/wheels = including=20 tender trucks--Scalecoat I engine black.
 
Everything above the frame including = the cylinders=20 and the tender--Scalecoat I Brunswick Green. (In the past this has been = too=20 green;  bottles of this color that I have used in the past couple = of years=20 have been much darker--and to my eye just right.)
 
Cab roof--Leave it Brunswick = Green.  Sorry I=20 can't find a source at the moment, the later engines--I think from the = M1=20 on--did not get a red roof.
 
Tender deck--Oxide Red from your choice = of=20 vendor.
 
Smoke Box and Firebox--I like Floquil = SP Lark Dark=20 Gray for a post WW II engine.  If I were painting an engine = modeling the=20 30's, I would use something with more silver, but photos show a more = gray mix=20 after the war.  I probably would leave the firebox Brunswick = Green; =20 difficult to mask appliances and pipes.
 
Follow Scalecoat's directions for = baking the parts=20 after painting and you will have a great finish.
 
Have fun!
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
 
 ------=_NextPart_000_0564_01C1E339.437581E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 23:32:49 -0400 From: Ken Meyer Subject: Re: [PRR] steam colors 2-10-4 j1a --Boundary_(ID_6zuVStmQ749Arutp1mWTJg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type=54455854; x-mac-creator=4D4F5353 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Erik, The PRRT&HS offered a "Painting guide for PRR locomotives" years ago and is probably out of print. You might pick one up at the convention in May if you lucky. Ken Steve Hoxie wrote: > Hi Erik--No one else has offered up any help so let me throw this out > and see if it brings any comments. This is what I would do to paint > your J1-- Frame from the pilot on back, drivers (tape the treads, > puleeeeze paint the tires), rods/valve gear, trucks/wheels including > tender trucks--Scalecoat I engine black. Everything above the frame > including the cylinders and the tender--Scalecoat I Brunswick Green. > (In the past this has been too green; bottles of this color that I > have used in the past couple of years have been much darker--and to my > eye just right.) Cab roof--Leave it Brunswick Green. Sorry I can't > find a source at the moment, the later engines--I think from the M1 > on--did not get a red roof. Tender deck--Oxide Red from your choice of > vendor. Smoke Box and Firebox--I like Floquil SP Lark Dark Gray for a > post WW II engine. If I were painting an engine modeling the 30's, I > would use something with more silver, but photos show a more gray mix > after the war. I probably would leave the firebox Brunswick Green; > difficult to mask appliances and pipes. Follow Scalecoat's directions > for baking the parts after painting and you will have a great > finish. Have fun! Steve HoxiePensacola FL --Boundary_(ID_6zuVStmQ749Arutp1mWTJg) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Erik,
The PRRT&HS offered a "Painting guide for PRR locomotives" years ago and is probably out of print. You might pick one up at the convention in May if you lucky.
Ken

Steve Hoxie wrote:

Hi Erik--No one else has offered up any help so let me throw this out and see if it brings any comments.  This is what I would do to paint your J1-- Frame from the pilot on back, drivers (tape the treads, puleeeeze paint the tires), rods/valve gear, trucks/wheels including tender trucks--Scalecoat I engine black. Everything above the frame including the cylinders and the tender--Scalecoat I Brunswick Green. (In the past this has been too green;  bottles of this color that I have used in the past couple of years have been much darker--and to my eye just right.) Cab roof--Leave it Brunswick Green.  Sorry I can't find a source at the moment, the later engines--I think from the M1 on--did not get a red roof. Tender deck--Oxide Red from your choice of vendor. Smoke Box and Firebox--I like Floquil SP Lark Dark Gray for a post WW II engine.  If I were painting an engine modeling the 30's, I would use something with more silver, but photos show a more gray mix after the war.  I probably would leave the firebox Brunswick Green;  difficult to mask appliances and pipes. Follow Scalecoat's directions for baking the parts after painting and you will have a great finish. Have fun! Steve HoxiePensacola FL 
--Boundary_(ID_6zuVStmQ749Arutp1mWTJg)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 13 Apr 2002 23:48:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] steam colors 2-10-4 j1a Hi Erik, I just got a chance to read your post and then the reply by Steve. I pretty much agree with Steve's suggestions. I would do 2 or 3 things differently however. I Would paint the Drivers DGLE or in Scalecoat terms, Brunswick Green. I would also paint the Pilot DGLE. As I recall all pilots were said to be painted this color according to the 1929 paint instructions. (I know the J1a came later so I am assuming this still held true in the 1940's.) I would also paint the firebox a grapite color. Your choice of shade is fine. After bakinng it is easy enough to go back and hand brush the piping Black. Your post is pretty good timing. I am nearing the end of a paint job of an HO Sunset J1a. This is a strange beast, I believe. The loco has long sand lines and Trainphone. Looking at all my books and all my photos I can not find a J1a with long sand lines (There wasn't a whole lot of J1's that had them, let alone finding proof of a J1a having them) So I decided to number the loco as a J1 instead. Number 6457 if I recall. One more word concerning the colors I would use as mentioned above. If you weather the loco the color differences are pretty much erased, so it is up to you to decide if DGLE or Black is used on these parts. If the loco is to remain clean looking, the color differences are plainly seen, especially under good lighting.........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] Rockville Limited: Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 08:24:58 -0400 The Rockville Limited was through Mount Joy @ 8:06AM. Visability was about 300 feet - but a fine show for the camcorder. Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small business IT services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susquehanna Div, 11 NHRS, Lancaster & PRRT&HS #7061 http://www.wsbcos.com.trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR electrified zone ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 08:40:03 -0400 From: Rail Classics Subject: [PRR] Pilot Sample of the F-40 Flat Car and Load Hello All: We at Rail Classics have posted photos of our PRR, PC also used for Conrail F-40 Flat Car with Load on our Web Site www.railclassics.com take a look and let us know what you think. BTW>>>>>The load is the mid-base section of the Mesta press (87' tall), now owned by Alcoa and still used today. We did another section of this same press when we did the F-38 Flat Car. Thank you for your support with our projects, EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS www.railclassics.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 09:25:11 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Rockville Limited: From: Jerry Britton On 4/14/02 8:24 AM, Wayne S. Betty at (cos@mycyberlink.net) wrote: > The Rockville Limited was through Mount Joy @ 8:06AM. > Visability was about 300 feet - but a fine show for the camcorder. > > I was at York Haven at 1:30 p.m., but the locals said the train had gone through about ten minutes earlier. Dang, must have been about an hour ahead of schedule! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR(F38) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 10:04:11 -0400 Group, Reading my Keystone magazine yesterday and saw that Eastern Car Works are to make this unit. I check their website but nothing listed. Anybody have any details? Jerry are you taking orders? Thanks Sam Vastano McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. PH 724-368-8040 X243 Fax 724-368-9677 _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Motive power color question #?? Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 09:34:44 -0500 Be careful of mixing Microscale decals. I've found very noticable color to color variations even on Microscale decals purchased at different times with the same catalog number. I've never found this variation with Champ decals, even those whose age differences are more than 20 years. -----Original Message----- From: Oerm2133@aol.com [mailto:Oerm2133@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 8:17 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Motive power color question #?? I've searched through the database on the subject of the lettering and striping colors and have several questions. I have LifeLike's HO scale FA1 and early release FA2. I also have an older set of Champion EH-78P . . . Bronze Gold . . and EH-78F ... dulux gold . . . . I also have older Microscale RH#67 , RH-21, and RH-39. If I am looking at these side by side, the FA1 & FA2 both appear to have a bronze color, the Champion EH-78P sets appears to be a gold color and the rest what seems to be described as buff. The RH-21 set also has a set of numbers that are much more yellow on the sheet. With the discussion of new releases of decals, I am curious if my interpretation of the colors is close or out in left field. Is the stripe and lettering color on the P2K units as it should be? Thanks for any information and the patience of the people who will probably answer this for the twentieth time. Don Luke ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 11:48:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Rockville Limited: We saw the Rockville Limited at Perryville Md. Cloudy skies but no rain. We got there about two hours before the Rockville Ltd. did. We watched about 10 high speed Amtrak trains go by including 3 Acela trains. The Maryland State Police made all of the railfans move off the (now closed) northbound platform right before the Rockville Ltd. showed up. Amtrak police drove by and never said anything to us. State Police said: "Amtrak crews called it in." We had scanners and we never heard a thing. So we had to set up on the southbound side. But we still had a good time. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 12:14:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Altoona wreck/NS hoppers --part1_70.1b2b65fb.29eb04e9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Drew & List. NS MW&S ballast cars are orange,just like the MW track equipment. Pat McKinney --part1_70.1b2b65fb.29eb04e9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Drew & List.
             NS MW&S ballast cars are orange,just like the MW track equipment.

Pat McKinney --part1_70.1b2b65fb.29eb04e9_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: STEVEGG1@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 13:50:41 EDT Subject: [PRR] Rockville Limited --part1_17b.69eaa4d.29eb1b71_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings, About 6 of us where at the overpass at Holtwood, came at 12:20 on Sunday. Train was going slowly. Great shot, including going away. Steve Panopoulos --part1_17b.69eaa4d.29eb1b71_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings,
About 6 of us where at the overpass at Holtwood, came at 12:20 on Sunday. Train was going slowly. Great shot, including going away.
Steve Panopoulos
--part1_17b.69eaa4d.29eb1b71_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 16:17:22 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: [PRR] Rockville Limited on the Main Line I was fortunate enough to see the train on both days. The first day I was at the Wayne Station on the inbound side when the Rockville Limited passed us at 9:13 AM at about 50 mph. Unfortunately, the morning was overcast; I was too close to the tracks and ended up only with shots of the EP-22's and the 120 car. Today, I was at the Wynnewood Station standing on the outbound side about 200 feet east of the station. I made the decision that the fence between the tracks was secondary to getting some shots of the engines and cars. The inbound trains round a medium left-hand curve (like at Wayne) before reaching the station. The sun was peeking out from the clouds some of the time and Limited was moving slower than yesterday. I was able to snap about a dozen shots including the engines next to the inboard station and some friends standing on the platform of #120. Luckily, neither day did SEPTA trains block the view. What a sight! Thanks, Bennett, Eric and the Harrisburg Chapter of the NRHS. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 17:50:30 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Rockville Limited From: Jerry Britton The Rockville Limited arrived at Harrisburg at 3:01. As expected, quite a thrill. The Four Rivers arrived about 20 minutes later, with about a dozen RoadRailers on the back. With two Amtrak trains already in the station, that's about the busiest the station has been in a real long time! Was really cool seeing two trains side by side filling the full lengths of two tracks! Pics will be posted tomorrow. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 18:24:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR(F38) Sam & List, There is a pilot model of ECW PRR F38 in the window of Jenkinstown Hobbies right outside of Philly. I didn't like what I saw. You're better off getting the brass version. Rail Classics did a great job with the car. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl Myers" Subject: Re: [PRR] Livestock trains Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 19:03:08 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C1E3E7.041637C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Matt; We had spoke of these before so now I have to have that on my = layout............drawings, pix available?? Earl Myers ----- Original Message -----=20 From: TJ LInk=20 To: SUVCWORR@aol.com=20 Cc: PRR-Talk=20 Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 9:30 PM Subject: [PRR] Livestock trains Rich, List Rich Orr wrote: "Somewhere, it may be in the Keystone article on FW8, I remember = reading that=20 Herr's Island was only an emergency rest stop for livestock. The = trains were=20 rested in mid-Ohio (don't recall the location) and timed to make NY = before=20 the 36 hour rule applied." I think that the stop was in Crestline, OH as there were extensive = stockyard facilities there just for that purpose. Matt Link =20 ------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C1E3E7.041637C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Matt;
 We had spoke of these before so = now I have to=20 have that on my layout............drawings, pix available??
Earl Myers
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 TJ = LInk
Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 = 9:30=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Livestock = trains

Rich, List
 
Rich Orr wrote:
 
"Somewhere, it may be in the Keystone article on FW8, I remember = reading=20 that
Herr's Island was only an emergency rest stop for = livestock. =20 The trains were
rested in mid-Ohio (don't recall the location) and = timed=20 to make NY before
the 36 hour rule applied."
 
I think that the stop was in Crestline, OH as there were = extensive=20 stockyard facilities there just for that purpose.
 
Matt Link
 
 


 
------=_NextPart_000_003D_01C1E3E7.041637C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 19:38:13 -0400 From: Ken Meyer Subject: Re: [PRR] Rockville Limited: At what time did the train reach Perryville? zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > We saw the Rockville Limited at Perryville Md. Cloudy skies but no > rain. We got there about two hours before the Rockville Ltd. did. We > watched about 10 high speed Amtrak trains go by including 3 Acela > trains. > The Maryland State Police made all of the railfans move off the > (now closed) northbound platform right before the Rockville Ltd. showed > up. Amtrak police drove by and never said anything to us. State Police > said: "Amtrak crews called it in." We had scanners and we never heard a > thing. So we had to set up on the southbound side. But we still had a > good time. > > Dave > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 19:49:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Rockville Limited: Hello Ken, The train arrived between 10:45 and 11:00am, pretty much on time. Those PRR E8s squeeled through the tight turn at Perryville at a very slow speed. Looked like 16 cars. I lost count. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 20:24:35 -0400 From: Ken Meyer Subject: Re: [PRR] Rockville Limited: It would be great if someone on the list was able to provide a arrival times of Saturday and Sunday trip. Anyone? Ken zootowerprr@webtv.net wrote: > Hello Ken, > > The train arrived between 10:45 and 11:00am, pretty much on time. > Those PRR E8s squeeled through the tight turn at Perryville at a very > slow speed. Looked like 16 cars. I lost count. > Dave > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] toluidine red Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 21:15:16 -0400 Friends: Just found this on a search and thought I would share: to·lu·i·dine [ta loo i deen ] noun chemical used in dyemaking: any of three isomeric derivatives of toluene used in making dyes. C7H9N Lew Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic and Energy Systems Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 22:23:30 EDT Subject: [PRR] sad news We make many friends over the Internet. People we become close to but have never met in person. This is to let all of you who knew him that the love of my life, John Arther, passed away this evening after a long and brave struggle. Some of you knew him as Merlin or the Wizard of Wilmington. He spent over 50 years modeling and mentoring young modelers. He will be sorely missed. For those of you who have been unable to reach me for the past few weeks or if I haven't answered your emails or sent your orders out please bear with me for a few more weeks while I tend to the needs at hand. Dayna Warner CEO Trainstuff LLC www.trainstuffllc.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 23:56:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] The Brinell Test Track. List, I was reading an old Trains Magazine (Sept. 1975) about PRR's P5a Modified and Boxcab electrics. The article is by Bert Pennpacker and he talks about the Brinell Test track. It was built in Claymont, Del. This test track had steel ties for recording impacts. I never heard about this before. Does anyone know of this test track and how did it work? Thanks in advance. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 23:56:57 EDT Subject: [PRR] Walthers PRR Lounge --part1_b6.9f386ed.29eba989_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Did the Budd cars have tinted windows. From the photos in books on the PRR pass. cars, some of the windows seem to be. Lounge car seats were what color? Again from photos they appear to be a deep, buff red. Assume these seats were singles as the Walthers car intimates and that they rotated on a pedestal in the middle of the seat. Yes, you guessed it, I was dropped on my head somewhere a long the line and am going to cut the seats free from the floor and mount them at different angles on pedestals. Many thanks, Evan Leisey --part1_b6.9f386ed.29eba989_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Did the Budd cars have tinted windows.  From the photos in books on the PRR pass. cars,  some of the windows seem to be.  

 Lounge car seats were what color?  Again from photos they appear to be a deep, buff red.  Assume these seats were singles as the Walthers car intimates and that they rotated on a pedestal in the middle of the seat.  Yes, you guessed it, I was dropped on my head somewhere a long the line and am going to cut the seats free from the floor and mount them at different angles on pedestals.

Many thanks,

Evan Leisey
--part1_b6.9f386ed.29eba989_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR(F38) Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 00:54:28 -0400 Sam- I saw the F-38 at the East Coast Hobby Show. It looked ok. Nothing compared to the railclassics brass version. Price difference is $50 vs. $180. You make the choice. After upgrading the ECW model with better wheels, paint, decals, brake piping detail, etc., you may want to go with the railclassics. I thought the ECW version was not bad, but not worth $50. I think it should go for about $35. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Vastano" To: Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 10:04 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR(F38) > Group, > > Reading my Keystone magazine yesterday and saw that Eastern Car Works are to > make this unit. I check their website but nothing listed. > Anybody have any details? Jerry are you taking orders? > > Thanks > > Sam Vastano > McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. > PH 724-368-8040 X243 > Fax 724-368-9677 > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Motive power color question #?? Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 00:55:41 -0400 Microscale may be putting out Buff yellow lettering for PRR freight steam. Deluxe gold was 1st used on PRR passenger. Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: ; Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 10:34 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Motive power color question #?? > Be careful of mixing Microscale decals. I've found very noticable color to > color variations even on Microscale decals purchased at different times with > the same catalog number. I've never found this variation with Champ decals, > even those whose age differences are more than 20 years. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Oerm2133@aol.com [mailto:Oerm2133@aol.com] > Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 8:17 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Motive power color question #?? > > > I've searched through the database on the subject of > the lettering and striping colors and have several > questions. I have LifeLike's HO scale FA1 and > early release FA2. I also have an older set of > Champion EH-78P . . . Bronze Gold . . and EH-78F > ... dulux gold . . . . I also have older Microscale > RH#67 , RH-21, and RH-39. > If I am looking at these side by side, the FA1 & FA2 > both appear to have a bronze color, the Champion > EH-78P sets appears to be a gold color and the > rest what seems to be described as buff. The > RH-21 set also has a set of numbers that are > much more yellow on the sheet. > With the discussion of new releases of decals, I > am curious if my interpretation of the colors is > close or out in left field. Is the stripe and lettering > color on the P2K units as it should be? > Thanks for any information and the patience of the > people who will probably answer this for the > twentieth time. > > Don Luke > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Rockville Limited on the Main Line Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 01:02:30 -0400 bill- you should have climbed into the bushes further down the tracks to not get the fence!!!!!!!!!!!! you know who. ----- Original Message ----- From: "prrbill" To: Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 4:17 PM Subject: [PRR] Rockville Limited on the Main Line > I was fortunate enough to see the train on both days. The first day I > was at the Wayne Station on the inbound side when the Rockville Limited > passed us at 9:13 AM at about 50 mph. Unfortunately, the morning was > overcast; I was too close to the tracks and ended up only with shots of > the EP-22's and the 120 car. > > Today, I was at the Wynnewood Station standing on the outbound side > about 200 feet east of the station. I made the decision that the fence > between the tracks was secondary to getting some shots of the engines > and cars. The inbound trains round a medium left-hand curve (like at > Wayne) before reaching the station. The sun was peeking out from the > clouds some of the time and Limited was moving slower than yesterday. I > was able to snap about a dozen shots including the engines next to the > inboard station and some friends standing on the platform of #120. > Luckily, neither day did SEPTA trains block the view. > > What a sight! Thanks, Bennett, Eric and the Harrisburg Chapter of the NRHS. > > Bill Morlitz > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 08:01:02 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: [PRR] The Brinnell Test Track Re Dave Hopson's question on the P5 test track in Claymont, DE. Buy the PRRT&HS' latest book on the class P5. It contains a good discussion of both the P5 side sway and axle problems as well as info and pictures of the test track, see pages 24-26 and 56. It's for sale on line at www.prrths.com on the National Society's E-Commerce section. This book is be available from the Society only until October at which time it will be released to dealers. There will be copies at the Annual Meeting in a few weeks. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 08:12:58 -0400 From: rcoon1@csc.com Subject: [PRR] Acela Express Tough Rival of Shuttle Return Receipt Your [PRR] Acela Express Tough Rival of Shuttle document : was Rick Coon/DEF/CSC received by: at: 04/15/2002 08:18:45 AM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 08:30:49 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Rockville Limited Comments From: Jerry Britton On behalf of railfans everywhere, I wish to express continued thanks to Bennett Levin and his family for sharing their beautifully restored PRR EPP22's and business car 120 with the public. It is truly a joy to watch them every time they run. I also wish to thank the Harrisburg Chapter of the NRHS for putting together the Rockville Limited excursions this past weekend. I was unable to ride both days, due to conflicts, but was able to be on hand for the return into Harrisburg on Sunday. It was great to see two 16+ car trains totally sold out. Where to next? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:50:41 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Rockville Limited Comments While Eric, Vivian and I appreciate everyone's appriciation for the efforts that made this trip and those before it so succussful, a significant amount of credit and thanks is due Norfolk Southern who allowed us to use their railroad for two days to make all this happen. The railfan community and the Harrisburg community in general should express a sincere "Thank You" to NS. They used crews and supervision in handling both trains that impacted their normal operations and did not HAVE to be so generous in hosting the trains this past weekend. NS deserves specific public recognition for their hospitality and willingness, not only to host the trains, but also to have exposed themselves to the potential liability of the "courious" who flocked to the right of way along the entire route. Bennett Levin Jerry Britton wrote: > > On behalf of railfans everywhere, I wish to express continued thanks to > Bennett Levin and his family for sharing their beautifully restored PRR > EPP22's and business car 120 with the public. It is truly a joy to watch > them every time they run. > > I also wish to thank the Harrisburg Chapter of the NRHS for putting together > the Rockville Limited excursions this past weekend. I was unable to ride > both days, due to conflicts, but was able to be on hand for the return into > Harrisburg on Sunday. > > It was great to see two 16+ car trains totally sold out. Where to next? ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:48:38 -0400 Subject: [PRR] New Digital Pics Posted From: Jerry Britton I have posted 40 digitals from traffic in front of HARRIS tower yesterday. Included are numerous photos of the Rockville Limited, as well as the eastbound Three Rivers that arrived about 20 minutes later. Pics came out well, though color is not great as it was heavy overcast. Go to http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/photos/ Don't enter any search criteria and you'll see the most recent pics first. Enter "Rockville Limited" in the Keywords field and you'll see only the Rockville Limited pics. Enjoy! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:51:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Rockville Limited Comments From: Jerry Britton On 4/15/02 9:50 AM, Bennett Levin (v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net) wrote: > While Eric, Vivian and I appreciate everyone's appriciation for the > efforts that made this trip and those before it so succussful, a > significant amount of credit and thanks is due Norfolk Southern who > allowed us to use their railroad for two days to make all this happen. > > The railfan community and the Harrisburg community in general should > express a sincere "Thank You" to NS. They used crews and supervision in > handling both trains that impacted their normal operations and did not > HAVE to be so generous in hosting the trains this past weekend. > > NS deserves specific public recognition for their hospitality and > willingness, not only to host the trains, but also to have exposed > themselves to the potential liability of the "courious" who flocked to > the right of way along the entire route. > Agreed!! I'm sure it happened elsewhere, but I heard over the scanner that there were railfans in four wheel drive vehicles actually running on the roadbed at New Cumberland. Sounded like the NS police barely missed catching them. Folks, this kind of activity is going to prevent excursions in the future. Stay off the tracks!!! And if you reading this and you are one of these types of folks, beware of my digital camera, 'cause I will turn you in!!! Don't ruin it for the "true" railfans. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 10:24:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Work Sessions Break From: Jerry Britton I've changed this coming Wednesday's work session to be a "private work session". Truth is, it's not likely to happen at all. My daughter is having outpatient surgery that day (minor, in the scheme of things, but thanks for asking!). She'll likely be fine by the evening, but I can't count on it. Next week (4/24) there will be no session as the Mrs. will be out of town at a conference. The following week (5/1) is the eve of the PRRT&HS convention and I'll be wearing my Merchandise Service hat, getting things packed and ready for the show. I do expect to resume sessions on 5/8 and keep at it on Wednesday evenings. I'll also likely get tidbits done along the way. Anything eventful I will post to the list. To Rich and others on the list who are standing by to help, thank you! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Brinell Test Track. Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 11:11:25 -0400 Dear RR friends: (Caveat: I don't have my reference books in front of me so I must rely on my very faulty memory for the details.) The test track was originally designed to test locomotives side thrust and subsequent damage to the rails and ties. These tests were done primarily on steam and electrics with side rods and other locos that may have had a "nosing" problem (side to side sway at speed). I believe that the Brinel test was conducted at various locations along the Broadway, not just in Delaware. I recall reading that a stretch of test rail was set up in the Trenton area for testing the New Haven electric loco and GG-1 vs. the R-1. The test involved having the side(s) of the impacted rail dimpled by a hardened steel ball held immobile and against the rail by fasteners in the concrete ties. Measuring the depth of the crater made by the hardened ball determined the amount of impact and/or side thrust. Concrete ties were used for stability and rigidity. The rails were removed for measuring immediately after a pass by the loco. I know there is more to this test operation but I can't remember all the details, offhand. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 11:56 PM Subject: [PRR] The Brinell Test Track. > List, > > I was reading an old Trains Magazine (Sept. 1975) about > PRR's P5a Modified and Boxcab electrics. The article is by Bert > Pennpacker and he talks about the Brinell Test track. It was built in > Claymont, Del. This test track had steel ties for recording impacts. I > never heard about this before. Does anyone know of this test track and > how did it work? Thanks in advance. > > Dave Hopson > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] The Brinell Test Track. Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:52:16 +0000 Having done a good deal of Brinell work in my steel mill days I would suspect that this was a very crude method of determining side and vertical thrust compared to today's transducers and continuous measurement. I would suspect that the impression material was on one side with a hardened steel plate of somekind on the other side which held the ball captive. You only want the ball to make an inpression in the inpression material. I would also suspect that these were placed at given intervals rather than every tie on every rail. there may have been a stretch where they tried to get a couple of revolutions on every tie but the physical set up would have taken a long time to get ready for a test. Norm Bell > Dear RR friends: > > (Caveat: I don't have my reference books in front of me so I must rely on my > very faulty memory for the details.) > > The test track was originally designed to test locomotives side thrust and > subsequent damage to the rails and ties. These tests were done primarily on > steam and electrics with side rods and other locos that may have had a > "nosing" problem (side to side sway at speed). > > I believe that the Brinel test was conducted at various locations along the > Broadway, not just in Delaware. I recall reading that a stretch of test > rail was set up in the Trenton area for testing the New Haven electric loco > and GG-1 vs. the R-1. > > > The test involved having the side(s) of the impacted rail dimpled by a > hardened steel ball held immobile and against the rail by fasteners in the > concrete ties. Measuring the depth of the crater made by the hardened ball > determined the amount of impact and/or side thrust. > > Concrete ties were used for stability and rigidity. The rails were removed > for measuring immediately after a pass by the loco. > > I know there is more to this test operation but I can't remember all the > details, offhand. > > Lew Matt > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: ; > Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 11:56 PM > Subject: [PRR] The Brinell Test Track. > > > > List, > > > > I was reading an old Trains Magazine (Sept. 1975) about > > PRR's P5a Modified and Boxcab electrics. The article is by Bert > > Pennpacker and he talks about the Brinell Test track. It was built in > > Claymont, Del. This test track had steel ties for recording impacts. I > > never heard about this before. Does anyone know of this test track and > > how did it work? Thanks in advance. > > > > Dave Hopson > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PGrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] Livestock trains Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 20:09:03 +0100 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C1E4B9.63630140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Earl, Have you looked at the RMC articles from the mid 80's ?=20 on the last stock trains in the east, there is a fair deal of = information, though no pictures of the yards, but there is of the stock. Patrick Grace Ps if you want copies let me know... ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Earl Myers=20 To: TJ LInk ; SUVCWORR@aol.com=20 Cc: PRR-Talk=20 Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 12:03 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Livestock trains Matt; We had spoke of these before so now I have to have that on my = layout............drawings, pix available?? Earl Myers ----- Original Message -----=20 From: TJ LInk=20 To: SUVCWORR@aol.com=20 Cc: PRR-Talk=20 Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 9:30 PM Subject: [PRR] Livestock trains Rich, List Rich Orr wrote: "Somewhere, it may be in the Keystone article on FW8, I remember = reading that=20 Herr's Island was only an emergency rest stop for livestock. The = trains were=20 rested in mid-Ohio (don't recall the location) and timed to make NY = before=20 the 36 hour rule applied." I think that the stop was in Crestline, OH as there were extensive = stockyard facilities there just for that purpose. Matt Link =20 ------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C1E4B9.63630140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Earl,
 
Have you looked at the RMC articles = from the mid=20 80's ?
on the last stock trains in the east, = there is a=20 fair deal of information, though no pictures of the yards, but there is = of the=20 stock.
 
Patrick Grace
 
Ps if you want copies let me = know...
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Earl = Myers=20
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 = 12:03=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Livestock = trains

Matt;
 We had spoke of these before so = now I have=20 to have that on my layout............drawings, pix = available??
Earl Myers
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 TJ = LInk
Sent: Saturday, April 13, = 2002 9:30=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Livestock = trains

Rich, List
 
Rich Orr wrote:
 
"Somewhere, it may be in the Keystone article on FW8, I = remember=20 reading that
Herr's Island was only an emergency rest stop for=20 livestock.  The trains were
rested in mid-Ohio (don't = recall the=20 location) and timed to make NY before
the 36 hour rule = applied."
 
I think that the stop was in Crestline, OH as there were = extensive=20 stockyard facilities there just for that purpose.
 
Matt Link
 
 


 
------=_NextPart_000_004D_01C1E4B9.63630140-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:05:54 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: [PRR] Motive power color question #?? Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr. writes... >Microscale may be putting out Buff yellow lettering for PRR freight steam. Deluxe gold was 1st used on PRR passenger. Greg< I don't want to start another "correct" color thread but...the Pennsy Paint and Lettereing Digrams I have call for BUFF-PRR Shade, any want to challenge that...? Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 16:38:09 -0400 From: Fred Kunchick Subject: Re: Re: [PRR] Motive power color question #?? Won't challenge that, but if we can fine PRR formals, then we can probably know what color they used. LOL ;-) Fred Frederick H. Kunchick Jr. GSCS(SW) USN(Retired) Independent AMSOIL Account Direct http://www.lubedealer.com/kunchick/index.htm Member Strasburg Model Railroad Club http://www.trainweb.org/smrc/index.html Host of ALHN/AHGP New Hampshire Civil War History and Genealogy Project http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nh/topic/civilwar/ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ""Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr."" Cc: Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 4:05 PM Subject: Re: Re: [PRR] Motive power color question #?? > Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr. writes... > > >Microscale may be putting out Buff yellow lettering for PRR freight steam. Deluxe gold was 1st used on PRR passenger. > Greg< > > I don't want to start another "correct" color thread but...the Pennsy Paint and Lettereing Digrams I have call for BUFF-PRR Shade, any want to challenge that...? > > Greg Martin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:51:40 EDT Subject: [PRR] Brinell hardness and the GG-1 --part1_105.142cee89.29eca56c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/15/02 1:11:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: The Brinell Test Track. > From: > Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 23:56:56 -0400 (EDT) > > List, > > I was reading an old Trains Magazine (Sept. 1975) about > PRR's P5a Modified and Boxcab electrics. The article is by Bert > Pennpacker and he talks about the Brinell Test track. It was built in > Claymont, Del. This test track had steel ties for recording impacts. I > never heard about this before. Does anyone know of this test track and > how did it work? Thanks in advance. > > Dave Hopson > Brinell testing is/was a common test in industries involving steel parts (auto, appliance, machine tool making, etc.). Brinell hardness test is a physical test used in steel/materials inspection. Essentially, it consists of pressing a hardened steel ball of known diameter and properties into the surface of the material to be inspected (with a known force). One then measures the size (diameter?) of the impression. This tells you how hard the surface of the steel is -- useful if you're going to cut it, or make armor plate out of it, etc. We're talking very high pressure to get deformation in a steel plate, even in the limited area the ball effects. In the case of the stated track test, the test is slightly different - a ball of known properties is pressed into a steel plate (tie?) of known properties, and the impression is measured to determine how much force was pressing on the ball. I'm pretty sure this ingenious use of Brinell testing was used when Old Rivets (PRR GG-1 4800, nee 4899) beat out the R-1 (nee PRR 4800). The GG-1 running gear was shown to exert less pressure (especially sidewise pressure) on the track than the more rigid R-1, and was thus adopted for production. As an aside, I've always believed that the success of the GG-1, with wheel arrangement adapted from a GE-built New Haven electric, helped General Electric crack the PRR market. We know there were other factors, but up until the Depression, PRR just didn't buy electrical equipment from much of anybody but online Westinghouse Electric Company. Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_105.142cee89.29eca56c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/15/02 1:11:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: The Brinell Test Track.
From: <zootowerprr@webtv.net>
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 23:56:56 -0400 (EDT)

    List,

            I was reading an old Trains Magazine (Sept. 1975) about
PRR's P5a Modified and Boxcab electrics. The article is by Bert
Pennpacker and he talks about the Brinell Test track. It was built in
Claymont, Del. This test track had steel ties for recording impacts.  I
never heard about this before. Does anyone know of this test track and
how did it work? Thanks in advance.

            Dave Hopson

Brinell testing is/was a common test in industries involving steel parts (auto, appliance, machine tool making, etc.).

Brinell hardness test is a physical test used in steel/materials inspection.  Essentially, it consists of pressing a hardened steel ball of known diameter and properties into the surface of the material to be inspected (with a known force).  One then measures the size (diameter?) of the impression.  This tells you how hard the surface of the steel is -- useful if you're going to cut it, or make armor plate out of it, etc.  We're talking very high pressure to get deformation in a steel plate, even in the limited area the ball effects.

In the case of the stated track test, the test is slightly different - a ball of known properties is pressed into a steel plate (tie?) of known properties, and the impression is measured to determine how much force was pressing on the ball.

I'm pretty sure this ingenious use of Brinell testing was used when Old Rivets (PRR GG-1 4800, nee 4899) beat out the R-1 (nee PRR 4800).  The GG-1 running gear was shown to exert less pressure (especially sidewise pressure) on the track than the more rigid R-1, and was thus adopted for production.

As an aside, I've always believed that the success of the GG-1, with wheel arrangement adapted from a GE-built New Haven electric, helped General Electric crack the PRR market.  We know there were other factors, but up until the Depression, PRR just didn't buy electrical equipment from much of anybody but online Westinghouse Electric Company.

Rick Tipton
Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana.
Email RickTipton@aol.com
Phone or fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please)
Wolf Penn Station
5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive
Prospect, KY 40059-9197 --part1_105.142cee89.29eca56c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:51:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] X43 classes - update on research and speculation --part1_14b.c549bea.29eca55b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sometime back we said: In a message dated 1/24/02 11:07:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, pennsyneil@home.com writes: Rick, Since I asked my question the handout I got at the PRRT&HS meeting in 1994 ay Wilmington has been found. Brady McGuire who did the talk shows that the X 43 ,X43a,X43b,X43c where all built with the diagonal paneled roofs. X43,a,b had 7 ft. doors while the X43c had 8 ft. doors. I needed this info for a modeling project of this class and the post war rebuilds of X-26, X29 cars.I have enjoyed the thread. Thanks Neil Campbell >> Hi Neil, Thanks for reminding me of the handout. Brady McGuire is a good friend of mine, and prepared those 1994 sheets in part by studying copies of my slides. His sheets are useful and, at the time prepared, reflected our best knowledge. But we were of course making the assumption that a PRR car class is a group of identical cars from one end to the other. In any case, when we refer to that handout, it may look like another independent source, but we're still actually fishing in the same pond, as Brady and I have worked together since 1978. Here in 2002, I've heard entirely too much about flakiness in some of the X43 classes. I'm not yet in a position to prove or disprove this -- it's difficult to find hard evidence, and if documentation exists, it's probably a long way east of Kentucky. However, I did feel free to caution folks that this might not be the no-brainer that many wistfully and trustingly assume. The one data group I probably trust is Ed Kaminski's citation of the 1500 X43A. In his AC&F book, Ed mentions these as produced at ACF Berwick PA. Because he's privy to detailed ACF production records, I think it likely these were built as a "lot", and may be 1500 "identical" cars. Further, I've just reviewed my photos of the X43A, and can't find anything inconsistent with this assumption. This still leaves the X43, X43B, and X43C cars. Greg Martin says the X43 are Greenville Car output; I haven't found other references that place X43 production at all. The B group came from Pressed Steel Car (Pittsburgh?) and the 43C from Mount Vernon Car (then controlled by PSC). The X43B and X43C appear in the 1953 Car Builders' Cyclopedia, advertising their respective shops. I'm asking my listmates to keep their eyes open for X43 and X43A, B, C primary evidence one way or another. I've got an index of "sightings" underway. One comment -- it's proving really difficult to find overhead pix of these cars. And if shot from the ground, it's usually not clear whether all the roofs are diagonal panel (as you'd logically expect of 1950-1951 production) or not. Thanks, Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ____________________________________________________________ Guys, Since the time of the above, I've been keeping my eyes open. I've found: 1. Overhead shots of any of these cars continue to be hard to find. 2. The X43 continues to be a really tough car to find pix of. One of our number commented on this. Note that in PRR Color Guide 3, Ian Fischer shows us X43A, B, and C, but not the X43. In all the time I shot every PRR freight car I could find, I only caught two X43 examples: #603567 with reinforcement added below the door opening, and lettered in SK2b (!) #603868 with what was probably the as-built tabbed side sill, lettered in SK1b Obviously, both these are repaints, but it's interesting that #603868 got new paint only 6 to 8 years after installation. 3. Re-examination of my 70 X43, X43A, B, and C slides and indexed photos confirms no irregularity within each class. I did find errors in my notes. Having fixed these, what's visible of side panels and ends is consistent within a class. 4. Of course, such examination does confirm that there were structural problems with these cars in service, probably in the center sill. One of the fixes (ugly and highly obvious) is to add a heavy channel under the side sill at the doorway as a "splint" to keep the car from folding in the center. As Color Guide 3 tells (pp60-61), in the 60's, the PRR had a program circa 1967 that retrofitted some/many cars in these classes with a side sill running from bolster to bolster, with tapers on the ends. Of course, not only did this change the carbody's looks somewhat, it ensured a repaint in PK (plain keystone). Notice that everything in the above is consistent with the conventional wisdom that PRR car classes just don't contain internal inconsistencies. Thus, I haven't been able to confirm the hypothesis that, for example, the X43 class had more than one roof style, etc. OTOH, there really isn't enough evidence to prove the opposite, either. ****************************************************************************** ****************** I think the truth here is that we need more facts than we have found: 1. We know some PRR classes that aren't uniform -- the X29 changed from flat to corrugated ends, recognized at most by the number series. Power brakes and other accessories commonly switched in the course of construcgtion of the larger car classes. Changes were a result of factors including availability, improvement, and purchasing policies. 2. Like most roads, PRR had somewhat less control yet over its suppliers. Pullman Standard changed body designs between the H34B and C. General American similarly redesigned the Airslide body between fourth and fifth orders of the H40. Pullman put black paint or car cement on the X48 ends (a PS standard at the time, not a PRR one). This stuff happened. 3. At the same time, it seems to be a rule that vendor cars leave less documentation. We can assume that much of the paper normally generated at Altoona in the course of designing and building a car would wind up in someone else's files in the case of a vendor car. This could be one reason we haven't found more info in the archives. 4. We also need to understand more about the motivation for buying vendor box cars in 1950-51. I'm not qualified to conclude that, with Pennsy car shops downsizing their forces after WW2, the return of a mild economic boom pushed PRR into the vendors' order books. We're reasonably sure the railroad still preferred to build its own, but it's possible Altoona was just too busy for this additional work. I'd guess the pressure had to be extreme for PRR to accept four different designs from four different shops (Pressed Steel owned Mount Vernon, but still marketed it as a separate entity). ****************************************************************************** ******************** Much could be speculated about these car orders: 1. I continue to be disturbed by the comments by Craig Bossler in the B&O Color Guide, page 75. The caption there says that the B&O/C&O class B-19 were "rebuilt" by Chicago Freight Car Co. 1968-1970 from PRR 600000-603999. The single photo shown (B&O 463529) leaves room for the interpretation that this "rebuild" consisted of removing the roofwalk, dropping the power brake wheel, cutting down the ladders, and adding a coat of paint, along with B&O/C& O's then-standard FDBG (Futura Demi Bold Gothic) lettering. Craig's reference is to PRR class X43, although the number series cited spans X43, X43A, and X43B classes. Craig also comments "having been originally built between 1940 and 1948 on a diagram. An authority on PRR rolling stock advises they were actually installed on the PRR 1950-1951." 2. Is it possible that one or more of these vendors, in a time of slack orders, had built up an inventory "on spec"? It's not credible that cars built before or during WW2 were still on hand, but it would be possible for cars to spend up to a year unsold in the doldrums that came (and fortunately were milder than expected) when peace came. Could such an inventory contain variations in end or roof? Of course they could, especially if the build was over a period of time and used up parts that had been ordered ahead. Remember, this was an industry that had been waiting 4 years for the steel industry to catch up. 3. It is just as likely that one of these vendors could have been stuck with cars that were ordered and then cancelled when the economy cooled (remember, we're speculating here). 4. It's pretty amazing that the PRR would be willing to purchase cars so different from its standard designs. But the railroad was likely feeling pressure not only from the operating side, but from finance. It's possible these vendor deals included some creative financial solutions that helped the road with its cash flow problems. To quote Chris Carter, originator of the X files, "The truth is out there somewhere". Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_14b.c549bea.29eca55b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sometime back we said:

In a message dated 1/24/02 11:07:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, pennsyneil@home.com writes:

Rick,
Since I asked my question the handout I got at the PRRT&HS meeting in 1994
ay Wilmington has been found. Brady McGuire who did the talk shows that the
X 43 ,X43a,X43b,X43c where all built with the diagonal paneled roofs.
X43,a,b had 7 ft. doors while the X43c had 8 ft. doors. I needed this info
for a modeling project of this class and the post war rebuilds of X-26, X29
cars.I have enjoyed the thread.

Thanks
Neil Campbell >>

Hi Neil,

Thanks for reminding me of the handout.  Brady McGuire is a good friend of mine, and prepared those 1994 sheets in part by studying copies of my slides.  His sheets are useful and, at the time prepared, reflected our best knowledge.  But we were of course making the assumption that a PRR car class is a group of identical cars from one end to the other. 

In any case, when we refer to that handout, it may look like another independent source, but we're still actually fishing in the same pond, as Brady and I have worked together since 1978.

Here in 2002, I've heard entirely too much about flakiness in some of the X43 classes.  I'm not yet in a position to prove or disprove this -- it's difficult to find hard evidence, and if documentation exists, it's probably a long way east of Kentucky.  However, I did feel free to caution folks that this might not be the no-brainer that many wistfully and trustingly assume.

The one data group I probably trust is Ed Kaminski's citation of the 1500 X43A.  In his AC&F book, Ed mentions these as produced at ACF Berwick PA.  Because he's privy to detailed ACF production records, I think it likely these were built as a "lot", and may be 1500 "identical" cars.  Further, I've just reviewed my photos of the X43A, and can't find anything inconsistent with this assumption.

This still leaves the X43, X43B, and X43C cars.  Greg Martin says the X43 are Greenville Car output; I haven't found other references that place X43 production at all.  The B group came from Pressed Steel Car (Pittsburgh?) and the 43C from Mount Vernon Car (then controlled by PSC).  The X43B and X43C appear in the 1953 Car Builders' Cyclopedia, advertising their respective shops.

I'm asking my listmates to keep their eyes open for X43 and X43A, B, C primary evidence one way or another.  I've got an index of "sightings" underway.

One comment -- it's proving really difficult to find overhead pix of these cars.  And if shot from the ground, it's usually not clear whether all the roofs are diagonal panel (as you'd logically expect of 1950-1951 production) or not.

Thanks,

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West

____________________________________________________________
Guys,

Since the time of the above, I've been keeping my eyes open.  I've found:
1. Overhead shots of any of these cars continue to be hard to find.
2. The X43 continues to be a really tough car to find pix of.  One of our number commented on this.  Note that in PRR Color Guide 3, Ian Fischer shows us X43A, B, and C, but not the X43.  In all the time I shot every PRR freight car I could find, I only caught two X43 examples:
#603567 with reinforcement added below the door opening, and lettered in SK2b (!)
#603868 with what was probably the as-built tabbed side sill, lettered in SK1b
Obviously, both these are repaints, but it's interesting that #603868 got new paint only 6 to 8 years after installation.
3.  Re-examination of my 70 X43, X43A, B, and C slides and indexed photos confirms no irregularity within each class.  I did find errors in my notes.  Having fixed these, what's visible of side panels and ends is consistent within a class. 
4.  Of course, such examination does confirm that there were structural problems with these cars in service, probably in the center sill.  One of the fixes (ugly and highly obvious) is to add a heavy channel under the side sill at the doorway as a "splint" to keep the car from folding in the center.  As Color Guide 3 tells (pp60-61), in the 60's, the PRR had a program circa 1967 that retrofitted some/many cars in these classes with a side sill running from bolster to bolster, with tapers on the ends.  Of course, not only did this change the carbody's looks somewhat, it ensured a repaint in PK (plain keystone).

Notice that everything in the above is consistent with the conventional wisdom that PRR car classes just don't contain internal inconsistencies.  Thus, I haven't been able to confirm the hypothesis that, for example, the X43 class had more than one roof style, etc.  OTOH, there really isn't enough evidence to prove the opposite, either.

************************************************************************************************
I think the truth here is that we need more facts than we have found:
1. We know some PRR classes that aren't uniform -- the X29 changed from flat to corrugated ends, recognized at most by the number series.  Power brakes and other accessories commonly switched in the course of construcgtion of the larger car classes.  Changes were a result of factors including availability, improvement, and purchasing policies.
2. Like most roads, PRR had somewhat less control yet over its suppliers.  Pullman Standard changed body designs between the H34B and C.  General American similarly redesigned the Airslide body between fourth and fifth orders of the H40.  Pullman put black paint or car cement on the X48 ends (a PS standard at the time, not a PRR one).  This stuff happened.
3. At the same time, it seems to be a rule that vendor cars leave less documentation.  We can assume that much of the paper normally generated at Altoona in the course of designing and building a car would wind up in someone else's files in the case of a vendor car.  This could be one reason we haven't found more info in the archives.
4.  We also need to understand more about the motivation for buying vendor box cars in 1950-51.  I'm not qualified to conclude that, with Pennsy car shops downsizing their forces after WW2, the return of a mild economic boom pushed PRR into the vendors' order books.  We're reasonably sure the railroad still preferred to build its own, but it's possible Altoona was just too busy for this additional work.  I'd guess the pressure had to be extreme for PRR to accept four different designs from four different shops (Pressed Steel owned Mount Vernon, but still marketed it as a separate entity).


**************************************************************************************************
Much could be speculated about these car orders:

1.  I continue to be disturbed by the comments by Craig Bossler in the B&O Color Guide, page 75.  The caption there says that the B&O/C&O class B-19 were "rebuilt" by Chicago Freight Car Co. 1968-1970 from PRR 600000-603999.  The single photo shown (B&O 463529) leaves room for the interpretation that this "rebuild" consisted of removing the roofwalk, dropping the power brake wheel, cutting down the ladders, and adding a coat of paint, along with B&O/C&O's then-standard FDBG (Futura Demi Bold Gothic) lettering.  Craig's reference is to PRR class X43, although the number series cited spans X43, X43A, and X43B classes.  Craig also comments "having been originally built between 1940 and 1948 on a diagram.  An authority on PRR rolling stock advises they were actually installed on the PRR 1950-1951."
2.  Is it possible that one or more of these vendors, in a time of slack orders, had built up an inventory "on spec"?  It's not credible that cars built before or during WW2 were still on hand, but it would be possible for cars to spend up to a year unsold in the doldrums that came (and fortunately were milder than expected) when peace came.  Could such an inventory contain variations in end or roof?  Of course they could, especially if the build was over a period of time and used up parts that had been ordered ahead.  Remember, this was an industry that had been waiting 4 years for the steel industry to catch up.
3.  It is just as likely that one of these vendors could have been stuck with cars that were ordered and then cancelled when the economy cooled (remember, we're speculating here).
4.  It's pretty amazing that the PRR would be willing to purchase cars so different from its standard designs.  But the railroad was likely feeling pressure not only from the operating side, but from finance.  It's possible these vendor deals included some creative financial solutions that helped the road with its cash flow problems.


To quote Chris Carter, originator of the X files, "The truth is out there somewhere".


Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_14b.c549bea.29eca55b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KLJURY@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 18:37:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] ATV's in New Cumberland --part1_1e.26921de5.29ecb011_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While waiting for the special in New Cumberland Sunday I saw the four atv's in question. To set the record straight they were not driven by railfans but by idiots who were not kids either. These guys had no interest in trains. While riding Saturday I saw some railfans though who should have known better, especially in Harrisburg yard. --part1_1e.26921de5.29ecb011_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While waiting for the special in New Cumberland Sunday I saw the four
atv's in question. To set the record straight they were not driven by railfans but by idiots who were not kids either. These guys had no
interest in trains.
  While riding Saturday I saw some railfans though who should have known better, especially in Harrisburg yard. --part1_1e.26921de5.29ecb011_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 17:51:23 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] X43 classes - update on research and speculation Sometime back we said: In a message dated 1/24/02 11:07:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, pennsyneil@home.com writes: Rick, Since I asked my question the handout I got at the PRRT&HS meeting in 1994 ay Wilmington has been found. Brady McGuire who did the talk shows that the X 43 ,X43a,X43b,X43c where all built with the diagonal paneled roofs. X43,a,b had 7 ft. doors while the X43c had 8 ft. doors. I needed this info for a modeling project of this class and the post war rebuilds of X-26, X29 cars.I have enjoyed the thread. Thanks Neil Campbell >> Hi Neil, Thanks for reminding me of the handout. Brady McGuire is a good friend of mine, and prepared those 1994 sheets in part by studying copies of my slides. His sheets are useful and, at the time prepared, reflected our best knowledge. But we were of course making the assumption that a PRR car class is a group of identical cars from one end to the other. In any case, when we refer to that handout, it may look like another independent source, but we're still actually fishing in the same pond, as Brady and I have worked together since 1978. Here in 2002, I've heard entirely too much about flakiness in some of the X43 classes. I'm not yet in a position to prove or disprove this -- it's difficult to find hard evidence, and if documentation exists, it's probably a long way east of Kentucky. However, I did feel free to caution folks that this might not be the no-brainer that many wistfully and trustingly assume. The one data group I probably trust is Ed Kaminski's citation of the 1500 X43A. In his AC&F book, Ed mentions these as produced at ACF Berwick PA. Because he's privy to detailed ACF production records, I think it likely these were built as a "lot", and may be 1500 "identical" cars. Further, I've just reviewed my photos of the X43A, and can't find anything inconsistent with this assumption. This still leaves the X43, X43B, and X43C cars. Greg Martin says the X43 are Greenville Car output; I haven't found other references that place X43 production at all. The B group came from Pressed Steel Car (Pittsburgh?) and the 43C from Mount Vernon Car (then controlled by PSC). The X43B and X43C appear in the 1953 Car Builders' Cyclopedia, advertising their respective shops. I'm asking my listmates to keep their eyes open for X43 and X43A, B, C primary evidence one way or another. I've got an index of "sightings" underway. One comment -- it's proving really difficult to find overhead pix of these cars. And if shot from the ground, it's usually not clear whether all the roofs are diagonal panel (as you'd logically expect of 1950-1951 production) or not. Thanks, Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ____________________________________________________________ Guys, Since the time of the above, I've been keeping my eyes open. I've found: 1. Overhead shots of any of these cars continue to be hard to find. 2. The X43 continues to be a really tough car to find pix of. One of our number commented on this. Note that in PRR Color Guide 3, Ian Fischer shows us X43A, B, and C, but not the X43. In all the time I shot every PRR freight car I could find, I only caught two X43 examples: #603567 with reinforcement added below the door opening, and lettered in SK2b (!) #603868 with what was probably the as-built tabbed side sill, lettered in SK1b Obviously, both these are repaints, but it's interesting that #603868 got new paint only 6 to 8 years after installation. 3. Re-examination of my 70 X43, X43A, B, and C slides and indexed photos confirms no irregularity within each class. I did find errors in my notes. Having fixed these, what's visible of side panels and ends is consistent within a class. 4. Of course, such examination does confirm that there were structural problems with these cars in service, probably in the center sill. One of the fixes (ugly and highly obvious) is to add a heavy channel under the side sill at the doorway as a "splint" to keep the car from folding in the center. As Color Guide 3 tells (pp60-61), in the 60's, the PRR had a program circa 1967 that retrofitted some/many cars in these classes with a side sill running from bolster to bolster, with tapers on the ends. Of course, not only did this change the carbody's looks somewhat, it ensured a repaint in PK (plain keystone). Notice that everything in the above is consistent with the conventional wisdom that PRR car classes just don't contain internal inconsistencies. Thus, I haven't been able to confirm the hypothesis that, for example, the X43 class had more than one roof style, etc. OTOH, there really isn't enough evidence to prove the opposite, either. ****************************************************************************** ****************** I think the truth here is that we need more facts than we have found: 1. We know some PRR classes that aren't uniform -- the X29 changed from flat to corrugated ends, recognized at most by the number series. Power brakes and other accessories commonly switched in the course of construcgtion of the larger car classes. Changes were a result of factors including availability, improvement, and purchasing policies. 2. Like most roads, PRR had somewhat less control yet over its suppliers. Pullman Standard changed body designs between the H34B and C. General American similarly redesigned the Airslide body between fourth and fifth orders of the H40. Pullman put black paint or car cement on the X48 ends (a PS standard at the time, not a PRR one). This stuff happened. 3. At the same time, it seems to be a rule that vendor cars leave less documentation. We can assume that much of the paper normally generated at Altoona in the course of designing and building a car would wind up in someone else's files in the case of a vendor car. This could be one reason we haven't found more info in the archives. 4. We also need to understand more about the motivation for buying vendor box cars in 1950-51. I'm not qualified to conclude that, with Pennsy car shops downsizing their forces after WW2, the return of a mild economic boom pushed PRR into the vendors' order books. We're reasonably sure the railroad still preferred to build its own, but it's possible Altoona was just too busy for this additional work. I'd guess the pressure had to be extreme for PRR to accept four different designs from four different shops (Pressed Steel owned Mount Vernon, but still marketed it as a separate entity). ****************************************************************************** ******************** Much could be speculated about these car orders: 1. I continue to be disturbed by the comments by Craig Bossler in the B&O Color Guide, page 75. The caption there says that the B&O/C&O class B-19 were "rebuilt" by Chicago Freight Car Co. 1968-1970 from PRR 600000-603999. The single photo shown (B&O 463529) leaves room for the interpretation that this "rebuild" consisted of removing the roofwalk, dropping the power brake wheel, cutting down the ladders, and adding a coat of paint, along with B&O/C& O's then-standard FDBG (Futura Demi Bold Gothic) lettering. Craig's reference is to PRR class X43, although the number series cited spans X43, X43A, and X43B classes. Craig also comments "having been originally built between 1940 and 1948 on a diagram. An authority on PRR rolling stock advises they were actually installed on the PRR 1950-1951." 2. Is it possible that one or more of these vendors, in a time of slack orders, had built up an inventory "on spec"? It's not credible that cars built before or during WW2 were still on hand, but it would be possible for cars to spend up to a year unsold in the doldrums that came (and fortunately were milder than expected) when peace came. Could such an inventory contain variations in end or roof? Of course they could, especially if the build was over a period of time and used up parts that had been ordered ahead. Remember, this was an industry that had been waiting 4 years for the steel industry to catch up. 3. It is just as likely that one of these vendors could have been stuck with cars that were ordered and then cancelled when the economy cooled (remember, we're speculating here). 4. It's pretty amazing that the PRR would be willing to purchase cars so different from its standard designs. But the railroad was likely feeling pressure not only from the operating side, but from finance. It's possible these vendor deals included some creative financial solutions that helped the road with its cash flow problems. To quote Chris Carter, originator of the X files, "The truth is out there somewhere". Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 20:37:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] The Brinell Test Track. Thanks Guys, Thanks for the info on the Brinell Test Track. I've never heard of this test track until now. I knew PRR had problems with the P5a but I didn't know the side to side swaying was that bad. According to the article by Bert Pennypacker, All types of PRR steam and electrics were tested on this track. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 21:21:55 -0700 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: The Brinell Test Track. Mike Bezilla's book _Electric Traction on the Pennsylvania Railroad 1895-1968_ has several descriptions, with test results, of the track impact Brinnell testing. See pages 42, 138-140, and 145. Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RichofScot@aol.com Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 21:14:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] X43 classes - update on research and speculation In a message dated 04/15/2002 6:58:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: > 1. I continue to be disturbed by the comments by Craig Bossler in the B&O > Color Guide, page 75. The caption there says that the B&O/C&O class B-19 > were "rebuilt" by Chicago Freight Car Co. 1968-1970 from PRR 600000-603999. > > The single photo shown (B&O 463529) leaves room for the interpretation that > this "rebuild" consisted of removing the roofwalk, dropping the power brake > wheel, cutting down the ladders, and adding a coat of paint, along with B& > O/C& > O's then-standard FDBG (Futura Demi Bold Gothic) lettering. Craig's > reference is to PRR class X43, although the number series cited spans X43, > X43A, and X43B classes. Craig also comments "having been originally built > between 1940 and 1948 on a diagram. An authority on PRR rolling stock > advises they were actually installed on the PRR 1950-1951." > 2. Is it possible that one or more of these vendors, in a time of slack > orders, had built up an inventory "on spec"? It's not credible that cars > built before or during WW2 were still on hand, but it would be possible for > cars to spend up to a year unsold in the doldrums that came (and > fortunately > were milder than expected) when peace came. Could such an inventory > contain > variations in end or roof? Of course they could, especially if the build > was > over a period of time and used up parts that had been ordered ahead. > Remember, this was an industry that had been waiting 4 years for the steel > industry to catch up. > 3. It is just as likely that one of these vendors could have been stuck > with > cars that were ordered and then canceled when the economy cooled (remember, > we're speculating here). > 4. It's pretty amazing that the PRR would be willing to purchase cars so > different from its standard designs. But the railroad was likely feeling > pressure not only from the operating side, but from finance. It's possible > these vendor deals included some creative financial solutions that helped > the > road with its cash flow problems. > > > Rick, I believe you will find part of the answer in the fact that the X43A and X43B cars 600000 to 601999 were leased from Chicago Car Co. (See reproduction of painting diagrams in "Pennsylvania Railroad Compendium" pgs 17 - 19). There is a note on the X43A and X43B drawings referencing a white triangle which is to be placed above the number and below "Pennsylvania." The PRR did not purchase these cars but leased them. When the lease expired, a large number of the cars were returned to Chicago Car Co. It is these cars which were refurbished and sold to the B&O. Dick Schweiger (C&BT shops) has/had original source information when he first made the X43, A, B, C class cars. Dick had photos with build dates earlier that the dates circa 1948-52 (see photos in PRR color guides for build dates of 1950, 51, 52). All of the X43 cars are in the April 1953 ORER. One additional difference in the as built cars -- the X43B had superior doors. The others all had Youngstown doors. As to the roof, the A, B and C all had diagonal panel roofs according to the tracings in the above referenced publication. Now for a very interesting question. Why did the PRR lease the 60xxxx cars and buy the 86xxx X43b cars? All were built in the same time frame. Might it have been a cash crunch? Rich Orr [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 21:51:29 -0400 From: Ken Meyer Subject: Re: [PRR] Rockville Limited Comments Here, here! Jerry Britton wrote: > On behalf of railfans everywhere, I wish to express continued thanks to > Bennett Levin and his family for sharing their beautifully restored PRR > EPP22's and business car 120 with the public. It is truly a joy to watch > them every time they run. > > I also wish to thank the Harrisburg Chapter of the NRHS for putting together > the Rockville Limited excursions this past weekend. I was unable to ride > both days, due to conflicts, but was able to be on hand for the return into > Harrisburg on Sunday. > > It was great to see two 16+ car trains totally sold out. Where to next? ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Frank & Andrea Amato" Subject: [PRR] Local freight service - Buffalo line Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 22:53:18 -0500 Hi all, I'm sketching some preliminary layout plans and am curious about local freights serving the towns between Northumberland and Williamsport. An open staging yard will represent these two towns, on the north and south "ends" of my layout. I have seen Mark Bej's through freight schedules, but haven't come across any info regarding locals circa 1960. Ya gotta have some switching in the smaller towns for interesting operations, IMO. Note - prior to posting, I did search the PRR-talk database - a great tool! Thanks in advance! Frank ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr." Subject: [PRR] firebox features Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:46:16 -0400 Blowdown mufflers. What was their exact use. Also, I seen locomotives with 2 valve knobs on the anterior side of a low profile box that sits atop the firebox directly in front of the cab. What were they used for. What was the box? thanks Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 10:26:52 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] firebox features I'm making some SWAGs here, so feel free to correct me! (a good source of info on steam loco devices like this is the MR Cyclopedia, which is at home...and I'm not) Greg asks: >Blowdown mufflers. What was their exact use. Why to muffle the blowdown of course ;^) As water was evaporated in the boiler, dissolved gunk was left behind. One way to get rid of some of this was to "blow down" the boiler, usually while underway by releasing steam. This was REALLY LOUD and the muffler helped with the noise problem. Also, I seen locomotives with >2 valve knobs on the anterior side of a low profile box that sits atop the >firebox directly in front of the cab. What were they used for. What was >the box? I believe the box is sometimes referred to as the "steam turret" and the valves control steam flow to steam powered devices such as the dynamo (aka generator). Follow the pipes to discover exactly which appliance was controlled from what valve. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:06:37 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] X43 classes - update on research and speculation To Quote Rick's quote... To quote Chris Carter, originator of the X files, "The truth is out there somewhere". I say AMEN! But finding the answers will take a collective effort of intersted parties and weed out the assumptions and get to the heart of the truth. At one point I promised I would make a call to Rich Burg and try to clear up some issues. This is a pet project of mine and I intemd to research it until I am satisfied I have most of my questions answered. I did call Rich and he was out and I never got back to the call but I will and report back. I only wish I was retired and independently wealthy so I could go out and seek all the answers. 3^) I try to compare this program with "industry standards" of the time. It has been reported that the X43 was a colorful mix of ex-leased cars and MAY have included a mix of "styles" of cars, but I can't confirmed that. This came from a post by Rich Orr who got the information from Dick at CB&T Shops. That is from Dick's research, but the few and I mean few photos I have of X43's that is not the case. The X43's are the most diffecult to find photos of especially in as delivered... I once did an article on the X29B and at the advise of Rich Burg I used the STANRAY "Murphy" rectangular panel roof and not the diaganol panel roof... What a can of worms it created not only for this series cars but for the X26C car as well. this was before the days of the internet and done in snail mail. I got caught between Rich Burg and Ed Hawkins in a real cat fight, but photos showed the rebuild programs started with the panel roof and were completed with the diaganol panel roof for both cars... Ed Hawkins was supporting Martin Loftin's use of the C&BT Shops body and the resin underframe. I did my underframe from photos and drawings of the rebuilt cars. The X29B had "changes" made to update the standard underframe to more modern standards... I won't go into the details. After the war the industry was changing and the car builders were looking for a "better way" and dealing with shortages as well as demand for newer higher capacity cars. I will call Rich and see what light he can shed on the subject. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:20:06 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Withers PRR Diesels Volume Seven From: Jerry Britton As previously announced elsewhere, Withers Publishing has volume seven of their Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Pictorial series coming out next month, featuring EMD E units and Alco PA units. Withers has opted to drop the black cover w/painting covers in favor of a new design. While I discourage this in general, I have to say that I really like the new cover! The new cover is a painting of a pair of Tuscan Red "Five Striped" E8's heading west. They are just passing VIEW tower at Duncannon and are in the section of trackwork where there are only three tracks. You can view the cover under the "Expected in May" heading at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ms_ar.html They've also changed the orientation of the book to landscape mode. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton" Subject: RE: [PRR] firebox features Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 20:23:13 +0100 The blowdown muffler was fitted to boilers that had automatic blowdown. This was a method of control the build up of sludge and minerals in the boiler, and worked by releasing more or less controlled amounts of steam and water. You'll often see the minerals deposited on the boiler jacket as a whitish greyish stain. As its name implies the intention was to reduce the noise of the blowdown - a couple of hundred psi makes the dickens of a racket at close quarters. As far as the box is concerned, I think you are referring to the housing that covers the steam turret, which is a manifold that supplies steam to injectors and various stem powered accessories and appliances. The valves permit the steam supply to be shut off to allow maintenance of the various fittings. Many engines originally fitted with steam turret covers had them removed later, exposing the turret for ease of maintenance, though the PRR managed to keep many/most of them in place. Aidrian ~Subject: [PRR] firebox features ~ ~Blowdown mufflers. What was their exact use. Also, I seen locomotives ~with ~2 valve knobs on the anterior side of a low profile box that sits atop the ~firebox directly in front of the cab. What were they used for. What was ~the box? ~ ~thanks ~Greg Vlassopoulos, Jr --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.346 / Virus Database: 194 - Release Date: 10/04/2002 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 14:58:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] firebox features and I-1 4483 From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" > > As far as the box is concerned, I think you are referring to the housing > that covers the steam turret, which is a manifold that supplies steam to > injectors and various steam powered accessories and appliances. The > valves permit the steam supply to be shut off to allow maintenance of > the various fittings. Many engines originally fitted with steam turret > covers had them removed later, exposing the turret for ease of > maintenance, though the PRR managed to keep many/most of them in place. > > Aidrian The turret of I-1 4483 is covered by such a box. The turret top is curved to match the curvature of the cab roof. The top is actually a lid that is hinged in the center so either side can be lifted up. Each half of the lid is 30" x 30". Each half has a 7" flange hanging down on the outside edge. There is a valve handle on the front face of the turret. It is 6.5" in diameter, and is 26" in from the left side of the turret. I don't know what it controls, and I surely would not want to be up there trying to turn the valve handle with the engine underway. Two 3/4" valve rods emerge from the front of the turret and travel straight to the valves on either side of the steam dome. The valve handles for these rods are in the cab. On the left side the 3" starter pipe enters the turret near the front, and on the right side a 1.5" pipe emerges from the turret near the front. This latter pipe disappears into the shroud on all the photos I have, and is not connected to anything on 4483, so I don't know exactly where it goes - have not obtained those blueprints. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab Galveston, TX ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton" Subject: RE: [PRR] firebox features and I-1 4483 Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 21:51:17 +0100 ~There is a valve handle on the front face of the turret. It is 6.5" in ~diameter, and is 26" in from the left side of the turret. I don't know what ~it controls, and I surely would not want to be up there trying to turn the ~valve handle with the engine underway. They weren't intended for use when running (under normal circumstances anyway) - the valves allowed the shop fitters to shut off sections of the auxiliary steam supplies to allow them to deal with spitting valves and leaking joints with the engine still in steam. ~Two 3/4" valve rods emerge from the ~front of the turret and travel straight to the valves on either side of the ~steam dome. The valve handles for these rods are in the cab. These sound likely to be the shutoffs for the steam supplies to the turbo generator and probably the air pump, which needed to be under the engineer's control Aidrian --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.346 / Virus Database: 194 - Release Date: 10/04/2002 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "S J Lash" Subject: [PRR] H2a Hoppers Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 21:13:02 -0400 >From their web site Rail Classics will be doing these hoppers is several schemes. However, I can find very little info or diagrams of these H2a hoppers. According to the web site, Pennsy had 2000 of these up through the 1960's Also this is an N&W design from pre WW11. Any info would be greatly aprreciated: i.e. # of bays,location of brake wheel, type of trucks etc. Thanks Jim ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 22:05:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] H2a Hoppers Get the Teichmoeller book - these were N&W "shorty" 3 bays - LEASED to the PRR and to the Beano under the same class on all 3 roads. The H2 was first PRR class to appear in Black, and the only class that I know of with a peaked end (consequently, there was a grab iron inside the hopper at the center of the ends) as only the "N&W" panels got repainted. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: SUVCWORR@aol.com From: RichofScot@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 14:22:55 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] X43 classes - update on research and speculation In a message dated 04/16/2002 2:18:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: > It has been reported that the X43 was a colorful mix of ex-leased cars and > MAY have included a mix of "styles" of cars, but I can't confirmed that. > This came from a post by Rich Orr who got the information from Dick at CB&T > Greg, I asked Dick what his source of information was about the X43a and X43b cars being leased from Chicago Car Co. He replied that he obtained the information from B&O Historical Society reprints of B&O freight car diagrams. There was a notation on the drawing that the cars in question were ex-PRR obtained from Chicago Car Co. when the leases expired. Note this only applies to the 600000 - 601999 cars. Those in the 86xxx series were X43b cars bought outright. This information is confirmed from the reprint of PRR painting diagrams in the Pennsylvania Railroad Compendium: PRR Freight Car Lettering Arrangements 1954-68 published by the Middle Division. A similar notation is found on the diagrams for the X43a and X43b class cars as an explanation for the white triangle placed between the number and Pennsylvania. Rich Orr [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 14:22:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X43 classes - update on research and speculation --part1_41.1bbe2c9b.29ef177f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 04/16/2002 2:18:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: > It has been reported that the X43 was a colorful mix of ex-leased cars and > MAY have included a mix of "styles" of cars, but I can't confirmed that. > This came from a post by Rich Orr who got the information from Dick at CB&T > Greg, I asked Dick what his source of information was about the X43a and X43b cars being leased from Chicago Car Co. He replied that he obtained the information from B&O Historical Society reprints of B&O freight car diagrams. There was a notation on the drawing that the cars in question were ex-PRR obtained from Chicago Car Co. when the leases expired. Note this only applies to the 600000 - 601999 cars. Those in the 86xxx series were X43b cars bought outright. This information is confirmed from the reprint of PRR painting diagrams in the Pennsylvania Railroad Compendium: PRR Freight Car Lettering Arrangements 1954-68 published by the Middle Division. A similar notation is found on the diagrams for the X43a and X43b class cars as an explanation for the white triangle placed between the number and Pennsylvania. Rich Orr --part1_41.1bbe2c9b.29ef177f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 04/16/2002 2:18:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes:


It has been reported that the X43 was a colorful mix of ex-leased cars and MAY have included a mix of "styles" of cars, but I can't confirmed that. This came from a post by Rich Orr who got the information from Dick at CB&T Shops.


Greg,

I asked Dick what his source of information was about the X43a and X43b cars being leased from Chicago Car Co.   He replied that he obtained the information from B&O Historical Society reprints of B&O freight car diagrams.  There was a notation on the drawing that the cars in question were ex-PRR obtained from Chicago Car Co. when the leases expired.  Note this only applies to the 600000 - 601999 cars.  Those in the 86xxx series were X43b cars bought outright.  This information is confirmed from the reprint of PRR painting diagrams in the Pennsylvania Railroad Compendium: PRR Freight Car Lettering Arrangements 1954-68 published by the Middle Division.  A similar notation is found on the diagrams for the X43a and X43b class cars as an explanation for the white triangle placed between the number and Pennsylvania.

Rich Orr --part1_41.1bbe2c9b.29ef177f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 16:52:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] H2a Hoppers --part1_2d.1bc49efe.29ef3a76_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/16/02 9:22:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sjlash@tcis.net writes: > > > >From their web site Rail Classics will be doing these hoppers is several > schemes. However, I can find very little info or diagrams of these H2a > hoppers. According to the web site, Pennsy had 2000 of these up through > the > 1960's Also this is an N&W design from pre WW11. Any info would be > greatly aprreciated: i.e. # of bays,location of brake wheel, type of > trucks > etc. Thanks Jim > > Hi Jim and others, Plans and info on the PRR/N&W H2a hoppers were published in the June 1965 issue of "Model Railroader". Eastern Car Works produced a flat styrene kit of this car in HO. The kit was #5000 Undecorated. I did not see it currently listed on their website. Andy Hart PRRT&HS 92 --part1_2d.1bc49efe.29ef3a76_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/16/02 9:22:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sjlash@tcis.net writes:




>From their web site Rail Classics will be doing these hoppers is several
schemes.  However, I can find very little info or diagrams of these H2a
hoppers.  According to the web site, Pennsy had 2000 of these up through the
1960's    Also this is an N&W design from pre WW11.  Any info would be
greatly aprreciated: i.e. #  of bays,location of brake wheel, type of trucks
etc.   Thanks Jim


Hi Jim and others,

Plans and info on the PRR/N&W H2a hoppers were published in the June 1965 issue of "Model Railroader".

Eastern Car Works produced a flat styrene kit of this car in HO.  The kit was #5000 Undecorated.  I did not see it currently listed on their website.

Andy Hart PRRT&HS 92
 --part1_2d.1bc49efe.29ef3a76_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 17:30:36 -0400 From: "Richard Poole" Subject: [PRR] LOOKING FOR CENTRAL PA. LIVE STEAMERS I am interested in talking to persons in the CENTRAL PENNSYLVANIA area who would be interested in building an INCH and ONE HALF RAILROAD on over 20 acres of mountain ground. We are investigating the possibilities of operating both 7 1/4" and 7 1/2" but if that cannot be done, we will go with 7 1/2". If you are interested in getting in on the gound floor of this project, I want to talk to you. You may E-Mail me at Dpoole17@PAnetwork.com or phone me at (717)763-0381. -- DICK POOLE -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 23:47:16 EDT Subject: [PRR] Garbage on the rails? --part1_70.1b64693c.29ef9bc4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stuart, My apologies for the color background. It's not my preference. I agree it slows down my reading, and I test fine on colorblindness. I was responding to a PRR-Talk digest message which had it, and when I "replied", the color was copied. When I was on AOL 5.0 (HTML disabled), this wouldn't have happened, but with AOL 7.0 you can't turn that "feature" off. Knew there'd be trouble, but my kid sandbagged me until I upgraded. Seems all her friends wanted to know why she wasn't on AOL 7. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_70.1b64693c.29ef9bc4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stuart,
My apologies for the color background.  It's not my preference.  I agree it slows down my reading, and I test fine on colorblindness.

I was responding to a PRR-Talk digest message which had it, and when I "replied", the color was copied.  When I was on AOL 5.0 (HTML disabled), this wouldn't have happened, but with AOL 7.0 you can't turn that "feature" off.

Knew there'd be trouble, but my kid sandbagged me until I upgraded.  Seems all her friends wanted to know why she wasn't on AOL 7.



Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_70.1b64693c.29ef9bc4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 23:47:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] X43 classes - update on research and speculation --part1_ad.1bc5757b.29ef9bc9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/16/02 2:06:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGREGMRTN writes: > To Quote Rick's quote... > > To quote Chris Carter, originator of the X files, "The truth is out there > somewhere". > > I say AMEN! But finding the answers will take a collective effort of > intersted parties and weed out the assumptions and get to the heart of the > truth. > > At one point I promised I would make a call to Rich Burg and try to clear > up some issues. This is a pet project of mine and I intemd to research it > until I am satisfied I have most of my questions answered. I did call Rich > and he was out and I never got back to the call but I will and report back. > I only wish I was retired and independently wealthy so I could go out and > seek all the answers. 3^) > > I try to compare this program with "industry standards" of the time. It has > been reported that the X43 was a colorful mix of ex-leased cars and MAY > have included a mix of "styles" of cars, but I can't confirmed that. This > came from a post by Rich Orr who got the information from Dick at CB&T > Shops. That is from Dick's research, but the few and I mean few photos I > have of X43's that is not the case. The X43's are the most diffecult to > find photos of especially in as delivered... > > I once did an article on the X29B and at the advise of Rich Burg I used the > STANRAY "Murphy" rectangular panel roof and not the diaganol panel roof... > What a can of worms it created not only for this series cars but for the > X26C car as well. this was before the days of the internet and done in > snail mail. I got caught between Rich Burg and Ed Hawkins in a real cat > fight, but photos showed the rebuild programs started with the panel roof > and were completed with the diaganol panel roof for both cars... Ed Hawkins > was supporting Martin Loftin's use of the C&BT Shops body and the resin > underframe. I did my underframe from photos and drawings of the rebuilt > cars. The X29B had "changes" made to update the standard underframe to more > modern standards... I won't go into the details. > > After the war the industry was changing and the car builders were looking > for a "better way" and dealing with shortages as well as demand for newer > higher capacity cars. > > I will call Rich and see what light he can shed on the subject. > > Greg Martin > Many thanks to Greg Martin and Rich Orr for focusing the hunt for facts here. For quite a while, I felt like the proverbial voice in the wilderness, crying "not all freight car classes are uniform" Proof once again how nonstandard it could be on "The Standard Railroad of the World", especially when you have 10% of North America's car fleet to play with over a period of 122 years. I eagerly await more clarification of the bizarre story of the X43's. Rick Tipton Nuts about the PRR and its freight cars --part1_ad.1bc5757b.29ef9bc9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/16/02 2:06:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TGREGMRTN writes:


To Quote Rick's quote...

To quote Chris Carter, originator of the X files, "The truth is out there somewhere".

I say AMEN! But finding the answers will take a collective effort of intersted parties and weed out the assumptions and get to the heart of the truth.

At one point I promised I would make a call to Rich Burg and try to clear up some issues. This is a pet project of mine and I intemd to research it until I am satisfied I have most of my questions answered. I did call Rich and he was out and I never got back to the call but I will and report back. I only wish I was retired and independently wealthy so I could go out and seek all the answers. 3^)

I try to compare this program with "industry standards" of the time. It has been reported that the X43 was a colorful mix of ex-leased cars and MAY have included a mix of "styles" of cars, but I can't confirmed that. This came from a post by Rich Orr who got the information from Dick at CB&T Shops. That is from Dick's research, but the few and I mean few photos I have of X43's that is not the case. The X43's are the most diffecult to find photos of especially in as delivered...

I once did an article on the X29B and at the advise of Rich Burg I used the STANRAY "Murphy" rectangular panel roof and not the diaganol panel roof... What a can of worms it created not only for this series cars but for the X26C car as well. this was before the days of the internet and done in snail mail.  I got caught between Rich Burg and Ed Hawkins in a real cat fight, but photos showed the rebuild programs started with the panel roof and were completed with the diaganol panel roof for both cars... Ed Hawkins was supporting Martin Loftin's use of the C&BT Shops body and the resin underframe. I did my underframe from photos and drawings of the rebuilt cars. The X29B had "changes" made to update the standard underframe to more modern standards... I won't go into the details.

After the war the industry was changing and the car builders were looking for a "better way" and dealing with shortages as well as demand for newer higher capacity cars.

I will call Rich and see what light he can shed on the subject.

Greg Martin 


Many thanks to Greg Martin and Rich Orr for focusing the hunt for facts here.  For quite a while, I felt like the proverbial voice in the wilderness, crying

"not all freight car classes are uniform"

Proof once again how nonstandard it could be on "The Standard Railroad of the World", especially when you have 10% of North America's car fleet to play with over a period of 122 years.

I eagerly await more clarification of the bizarre story of the X43's.

Rick Tipton
Nuts about the PRR and its freight cars --part1_ad.1bc5757b.29ef9bc9_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:29:50 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Special HO Attraction at PRRT&HS Convention From: Jerry Britton I'll disclose just prior, but HO scalers will be in for a very special treat at my tables at the PRRT&HS Convention in two weeks. This will be a "first public look" at an exciting new product!!! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Special HO Attraction at PRRT&HS Convention Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:53:27 -0400 Sure keep us in suspense for two weeks!!!!! Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:30 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Special HO Attraction at PRRT&HS Convention I'll disclose just prior, but HO scalers will be in for a very special treat at my tables at the PRRT&HS Convention in two weeks. This will be a "first public look" at an exciting new product!!! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 09:56:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Special HO Attraction at PRRT&HS Convention From: Jerry Britton On 4/18/02 9:53 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > Sure keep us in suspense for two weeks!!!!! > That's the idea!!! Suspense just adds to the thrill of the convention. I look forward to it every year and have it on my calendar for years out at a time! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 06:59:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Andrews Subject: [PRR] Re: [HarrisRailFan] New Digital Pics Posted The "unknown car" in picture 213 is Amtrak 44604, the car in which I was riding. Joe --- Jerry Britton wrote: > I have posted 40 digitals from traffic in front of > HARRIS tower yesterday. > > Included are numerous photos of the Rockville > Limited, as well as the > eastbound Three Rivers that arrived about 20 minutes > later. > > Pics came out well, though color is not great as it > was heavy overcast. > > Go to > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/photos/ > > Don't enter any search criteria and you'll see the > most recent pics first. > > Enter "Rockville Limited" in the Keywords field and > you'll see only the > Rockville Limited pics. > > Enjoy! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS > jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N > Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" > mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 10:01:47 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: [HarrisRailFan] New Digital Pics Posted From: Jerry Britton On 4/18/02 9:59 AM, Joseph Andrews (joeandrews1@yahoo.com) wrote: > The "unknown car" in picture 213 is Amtrak 44604, the > car in which I was riding. Thanks, I'll get it updated. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 11:21:10 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Special HO Attraction at PRRT&HS Convention From: Jerry Britton On 4/18/02 11:14 AM, Zak (casimer.zakrzewski@us.army.mil) wrote: > Jerry, what about those of us like me who can't make it to the convention? > How about taking some digital pix and attaching them to email to the list. > Those that are at the convention can just delete without opening, as they've > seen the item first-hand. > Goes without saying! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 11:14:10 -0400 From: Zak Subject: Re: [PRR] Special HO Attraction at PRRT&HS Convention Jerry, what about those of us like me who can't make it to the convention? How about taking some digital pix and attaching them to email to the list. Those that are at the convention can just delete without opening, as they've seen the item first-hand. Zak ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:29 AM Subject: [PRR] Special HO Attraction at PRRT&HS Convention > I'll disclose just prior, but HO scalers will be in for a very special treat > at my tables at the PRRT&HS Convention in two weeks. > > This will be a "first public look" at an exciting new product!!! ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 11:29:07 -0400 From: Zak Subject: Re: [PRR] Special HO Attraction at PRRT&HS Convention Thnaks! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Zak" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 11:21 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Special HO Attraction at PRRT&HS Convention > On 4/18/02 11:14 AM, Zak (casimer.zakrzewski@us.army.mil) wrote: > > > Jerry, what about those of us like me who can't make it to the convention? > > How about taking some digital pix and attaching them to email to the list. > > > Goes without saying! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: [PRR] Rockville Limited Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 17:18:43 -0400 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C1E6FD.178DAE00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The following link will take you to my friends web page containing = photos of the trip last weekend. I was with him on the 13th and on the = train on the 14th. Enjoy. http://home.dejazzd.com/jmattern/rockville.htm Jeff Smith ------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C1E6FD.178DAE00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The following link will take you to my = friends web=20 page containing photos of the trip last weekend.  I was with him on = the=20 13th and on the train on the 14th.  Enjoy.
 
http://home.dejaz= zd.com/jmattern/rockville.htm
 
Jeff Smith
------=_NextPart_000_001A_01C1E6FD.178DAE00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "J. Smith" Subject: Re: [PRR] Special HO Attraction at PRRT&HS Convention Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 17:23:30 -0400 It must be the new PRR M-1 in HO by Broadway Limited. Jeff Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chany, Christopher" To: "'Jerry Britton'" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:53 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Special HO Attraction at PRRT&HS Convention > Sure keep us in suspense for two weeks!!!!! > > Chris Chany > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 9:30 AM > To: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: [PRR] Special HO Attraction at PRRT&HS Convention > > > I'll disclose just prior, but HO scalers will be in for a very special treat > at my tables at the PRRT&HS Convention in two weeks. > > This will be a "first public look" at an exciting new product!!! ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 19:15:47 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] Rockville Limited > "J. Smith" wrote: > > The following link will take you to my friends web page containing > photos of the trip last weekend. I was with him on the 13th and on > the train on the 14th. Enjoy. > > http://home.dejazzd.com/jmattern/rockville.htm > > Jeff Smith Jeff, Thanks for telling us about the great shots. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 21:33:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Special HO Attraction at PRRT&HS Convention From: "Jerry @ pennsyrr.com" on 4/18/02 5:23 PM, J. Smith at stacktalk@dejazzd.com wrote: > It must be the new PRR M-1 in HO by Broadway Limited. > No, the BLI M1's aren't due until year's end. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@pennsyrr.com http://kc.pennsyrr.com Modeling the PRR in 1954 in N scale -- http//kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 21:50:56 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports - Photo of First Locomotive!!! From: "Jerry @ pennsyrr.com" There's been lots of speculation about the "special attraction" that I announced would be at the convention in two weeks. A few have guessed correctly, and I will reveal it on May 1. The following is purely coincidental timing...just happened to arrive this evening...a photo of the pre-production model of Broadway Limited Imports New York Central J1e, which is due to ship in June. http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/ms_ar.html Scroll down to the "Due in June" section. Click on the image to view the large version. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@pennsyrr.com http://kc.pennsyrr.com Modeling the PRR in 1954 in N scale -- http//kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SHanlon@dnr.state.md.us Subject: RE: [PRR] Rockville Limited Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 07:53:20 -0400 i was not only unable to ride the excursion, but i also could not railfan due to a death in the family. i would have loved to see the consist cross rockville viaduct, but like all varnish, i'm left with only pictures to view. next time, i'll be there. hell or high water. -steve hanlon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 09:18:07 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: [PRR] OT Layout open house Hello all: On May 3rd and May 5th, I will be holding an open house of my home layout in conjunction with the PRRH&TS national convention in Camp Hill, Pa. I am located about 20 minutes south of Harrisburg towards York, PA. The open house will start at 7 PM on Friday May 3rd and end at 10 PM that evening. Sunday, May 5th's hours 1 PM to 4 PM. The convention is for members only but my layout is open to anyone interested who is in the area. My layout features Digitrax DCC, most mainline switches are controlled by NCE Switch-It stationary accessory decoders. I have the PRR, RDG, and WM railroads on my layout which runs from Harrisburg, PA to Baltimore, MD and several locomotives are sound equipped. My layout is 16 months old, so scenery is a work in progress. For a few pictures, go to http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/warner/. If you have any questions, or would like directions (mapquest has my house at the wrong place by 5 miles), please contact me at the email address below. Regards, Jeff Warner jeffrywarner@suscom.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 08:56:31 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR: I-1 compressor piping From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" I was asked some time ago "where does the pipe from the air tank under the engineer's cab go." Here is my take on the piping based on photos and enginering drawings. Feel free to jump in and make a correction if I misstate. Steam to operate the compressors is bled off the left side of the steam dome. The pipe curves down and to the rear. On the two compressor engines there is a T connection that shunts steam to both compressors. One line curves down the left side of the boiler and enters the compressor from the rear. The other curves over the top and down over the right side of the boiler and enters the compressor from the front. After operating the compressor(s), the spent steam exits the front (left side) or rear (right side), is directed forward through 2.5 inch pipes, bends at the front of the engine, and enters the front of the steam chest. The air compressed by the right side compressor travels through a pipe under the belly of the boiler and Ts into the pipe emerging from the left side compressor. The joined compressed air travels forward through the radiator, then enters the left side front air tank from the rear. Air is transferred to the right front tank via the short front pipe connecting the two tanks. Air then travels through a pipe emerging from the back of the right front tank along the right side of the engine, curves behind the compressor, re-curves outward to its original route, bends downward, and enters the front of the under cab tank. The pipe emerging from the rear of the under cab tank curves forward to about the front of the firebox, curves upward and joins the dust collector on the middle of the three pipes emerging from just under the cab. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Meteing announcment Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:13:05 +0000 How about announcing Centipedes in a plastic version? The again, maybe I have been consuming too many adult beverages lately. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 10:18:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Meteing announcment From: Jerry Britton On 4/19/02 10:13 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > How about announcing Centipedes in a plastic version? > The again, maybe I have been consuming too many adult > beverages lately. > Better keep drinking! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] Meteing announcment Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 07:01:08 -0400 Jerry, A PRR X58 box car done to the detail level of Athearn Genesis or P2K would be very nice! (I don't drink). Terry Stuart -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: ndbprr@att.net ; PRR-Talk LIST Date: Friday, April 19, 2002 10:34 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Meteing announcment >On 4/19/02 10:13 AM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > >> How about announcing Centipedes in a plastic version? >> The again, maybe I have been consuming too many adult >> beverages lately. >> >Better keep drinking! >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 11:26:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Meeting announcement From: Jerry Britton On 4/18/02 7:01 AM, W. Terry Stuart (tstuart@forcomm.net) wrote: > A PRR X58 box car done to the detail level of Athearn Genesis or P2K would > be very nice! Nope, sorry! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 13:52:20 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT: Puns in Business Names on Model RR From: Jerry Britton Some model railroaders use puns in business names. Today there is a story on CNN about Abercrombie & Fitch, the clothing manufacturer, regarding a recall of a new product line. The product in question is a t-shirt with two Chinese men with the caption "Wong Brothers Laundry: Two Wongs Can Make It White". Some call it racist, but I think it is pretty darn catchy!!! See it yourself at http://www.cnn.com/2002/BUSINESS/asia/04/19/sanfran.abercrombie.reut/index.h tml ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:19:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Meeting announcement Could it be the GG1 project? Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Matt Sichel" Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:20:06 -0400 Subject: [PRR]
Hey all,
 
GREAT NEWS! for all of you who may not have heard, According to www.trains.com:
 
Plan would double rail capacity between N.J. and Virginia
CSX, NS, and Amtrak work with states on $6.2 billion proposal
by Bill Stephens
Working closely with five Mid-Atlantic states, CSX, Norfolk Southern, and Amtrak are floating a $6.2 billion private-public partnership plan that over the next two decades would virtually double freight and passenger capacity on their lines linking New Jersey and Virginia.

To see the full text of the article, go to http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/002/408qqxir.asp

If these improvements are made, we will be on our way to railroading again (at least in my opinion).

-Matt Sichel

PRR fan stuck in the 21st Century


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----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:21:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Meeting announcement From: Jerry Britton On 4/19/02 2:19 PM, zootowerprr@webtv.net (zootowerprr@webtv.net) wrote: > Could it be the GG1 project? > No...what GG1 project? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] Meeting announcement Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:36:09 -0400 How about a Plastic Q2?????? Sam Vastano McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. PH 724-368-8040 X243 Fax 724-368-9677 _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:40:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Meeting announcement From: Jerry Britton On 4/19/02 2:36 PM, Sam Vastano (svastano@hotmail.com) wrote: > How about a Plastic Q2?????? > > > No. But I have conjured up some interesting speculation! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 14:40:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Meeting announcement What GG1 Project? I didn't hear about a GG1 project. Not me. I didn't hear about a plastic HO GG1 project with orginal and modified intakes. Never heard anything like that! Jerry, where in the would did you hear that! Dave:) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 18:53:03 -0400 From: Bill Lane Subject: [PRR] Brownhoist train Hi All, I recently read with great interest in the Keystone Chronicles Vol. 2 about the Brownhoist Ballast cleaning trains. Are they or something similar still used today? Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 20:01:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] RE: (PRR) 2-10-4 steam colors Erik, I hope the info you received from the list is helping you out on your J1 project. I was able to finish the Sunset J1 I was working on. http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/duryj.JPG Hope you can use it as somewhat of a guide....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 18:53:03 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Brownhoist train Hi All, I recently read with great interest in the Keystone Chronicles Vol. 2 about the Brownhoist Ballast cleaning trains. Are they or something similar still used today? Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 20:52:31 -0400 From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: Puns in Business Names on Model RR That's almost as bad as a sikh joke. John Ryan Jerry Britton wrote: > Some model railroaders use puns in business names. Today there is a story on > CNN about Abercrombie & Fitch, the clothing manufacturer, regarding a recall > of a new product line. > > The product in question is a t-shirt with two Chinese men with the caption > "Wong Brothers Laundry: Two Wongs Can Make It White". > > Some call it racist, but I think it is pretty darn catchy!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MarkCFry@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 23:41:42 EDT Subject: [PRR] Shamokin Branch Information --part1_125.f585e31.29f23d76_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Group; I received a request from someone today and am passing this on to you for more input. Mr. Whiston writes.... I'm interested in researching the Shamokin branch. Any idea where I could find track plans or schedules? My father grew up on Railroad St. I'm thinking of trying to model the area. Thanks. Richard Whiston Is there any source online that I direct Mr. Whiston to? Thanks in advance! Mark F. --part1_125.f585e31.29f23d76_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Group;

I received a request from someone today and am passing this on to you for more input.  Mr. Whiston writes....

I'm interested in researching the Shamokin branch.  Any idea where I could find track plans or schedules?  My father grew up on Railroad St.  I'm thinking of trying to model the area.  Thanks. Richard Whiston

Is there any source online that I direct Mr. Whiston to?

Thanks in advance!

Mark F. --part1_125.f585e31.29f23d76_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 23:48:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: Puns in Business Names on Model RR It took me years to "Catch on" to John Allen's "Gorre and Daphedid" and his railroad had puns within puns - not to mention the Dinosaurs with MOW loco numbers on their flanks and besides I thought that the racist joke asked why, with all their kite technology, the Chinese didn't make the first airplane: "Two Wongs couldn't make a Wright" Returning to the original tangent - I have for real - seen the LUMPE coal company made sales calls on the Boom Boiler Works, visited Dr. Foote, Podiatrist, and - when I visit Alliance, Ohio. I usually get stopped by the traffic light in front of Dr. Stiffe, urologist - though I've yet to require his services. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 07:54:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Shamokin Branch Information On Fri, 19 Apr 2002 MarkCFry@aol.com wrote: > Group; > > I received a request from someone today and am passing this on to you for > more input. Mr. Whiston writes.... > > I'm interested in researching the Shamokin branch. Any idea where I could > find track plans or schedules? My father grew up on Railroad St. I'm > thinking of trying to model the area. Thanks. Richard Whiston I think I have both track chart or charts and employee timetables in my pending pile; If so I will try to get them scanned before the annual meeting and let you know ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 11:11:22 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: [PRR] K4s Torpedo in a movie Always trying to find quality film of the PRR, Turner Classic Movies happens to be showing the film "Nobody Lives Forever" (1946) with John Garfield. There is a high quality shot of the K4s Torpedo hauling a passenger train at high speed. This shot, while very similar (the same?) to the one in Hal Roach's "Broadway Limited", is of high clarity. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 07:41:47 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Stillwater Oh on the Buckeye Division In a message dated 4/20/02 11:46:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 13 > Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 11:12:37 -0400 (EDT) > From: mittner@webtv.net > Subject: (Structure) > > List, > > Does anyone know if " STILL WATER " was a PRR Tower or Station. If > not PRR then what road? Ohio is the locale I beleive.. Thanks, Gary > STILLWATER at MP 20.6 (west of Xenia) was on the west edge of the Dayton area as the single track "Dayton & Western" climbed out of Dayton's Miami Valley towards New Paris and thence Richmond IN. In the area of Wolf Creek and the Stillwater River, the PRR is taking advantage of these tributaries of the Great Miami to minimize the westbound grade, ultimately a long climbout of some 400 feet elevation. Although nothing (no siding, no block tower) is marked in the 1956 Buckeye Region ETT, Stillwater remained a remote interlocking as late as 1977. I believe it once had water facilities for steam. Back in the 1880's, Stillwater was the crossing point for a narrow gauge line that went west from Dayton and then north through Covington Ohio (a point where PRR's Bradford line crossed the Stillwater River). Logic says there should have been a station here circa 1900 -- according to the Lines West Passenger Atlas, it was called Stillwater Junction at that time. Remnants of said intersecting line, standard-gauged and folded into the B&O camp, are visible on a 1926 rail map of Dayton, marked as the B&O Stillwater Br. However, I don't know if the B&O track was active as far north as Stillwater Jct. at that date. If I have any slides of STILLWATER at all, they would show an undistinguished single track (with passing siding?) paralleling a creek/river. OTOH, Richard D Acton Sr took some great action shots of K4s moving the Blue Ribbon Fleet through here -- consult with Jay Williams at Big Four Graphics (Indianapolis) for prints from RDA, Sr. negatives. Gary, from your question should I assume you've found a structure pic or drawing? Rick Tipton [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: davep Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 10:31:03 -0700 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Brownhoist train Bill Lane wrote: > I recently read with great interest in the Keystone >Chronicles Vol. 2 about the Brownhoist Ballast cleaning >trains. Haven't seen it. >Are they or something similar still used today? Ballast cleaners are standard equipment in some places. I believe more common in Europe than US. AMTRAK has one (or leases, yaddah) at least, for the NEC. best dwp ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 10:31:03 -0700 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Brownhoist train Bill Lane wrote: > I recently read with great interest in the Keystone >Chronicles Vol. 2 about the Brownhoist Ballast cleaning >trains. Haven't seen it. >Are they or something similar still used today? Ballast cleaners are standard equipment in some places. I believe more common in Europe than US. AMTRAK has one (or leases, yaddah) at least, for the NEC. best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 07:41:47 EDT Subject: [PRR] Stillwater Oh on the Buckeye Division --part1_105.147989af.29f3ff7b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/20/02 11:46:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > Message: 13 > Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 11:12:37 -0400 (EDT) > From: mittner@webtv.net > Subject: (Structure) > > List, > > Does anyone know if " STILL WATER " was a PRR Tower or Station. If > not PRR then what road? Ohio is the locale I beleive.. Thanks, Gary > STILLWATER at MP 20.6 (west of Xenia) was on the west edge of the Dayton area as the single track "Dayton & Western" climbed out of Dayton's Miami Valley towards New Paris and thence Richmond IN. In the area of Wolf Creek and the Stillwater River, the PRR is taking advantage of these tributaries of the Great Miami to minimize the westbound grade, ultimately a long climbout of some 400 feet elevation. Although nothing (no siding, no block tower) is marked in the 1956 Buckeye Region ETT, Stillwater remained a remote interlocking as late as 1977. I believe it once had water facilities for steam. Back in the 1880's, Stillwater was the crossing point for a narrow gauge line that went west from Dayton and then north through Covington Ohio (a point where PRR's Bradford line crossed the Stillwater River). Logic says there should have been a station here circa 1900 -- according to the Lines West Passenger Atlas, it was called Stillwater Junction at that time. Remnants of said intersecting line, standard-gauged and folded into the B&O camp, are visible on a 1926 rail map of Dayton, marked as the B&O Stillwater Br. However, I don't know if the B&O track was active as far north as Stillwater Jct. at that date. If I have any slides of STILLWATER at all, they would show an undistinguished single track (with passing siding?) paralleling a creek/river. OTOH, Richard D Acton Sr took some great action shots of K4s moving the Blue Ribbon Fleet through here -- consult with Jay Williams at Big Four Graphics (Indianapolis) for prints from RDA, Sr. negatives. Gary, from your question should I assume you've found a structure pic or drawing? Rick Tipton --part1_105.147989af.29f3ff7b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/20/02 11:46:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes:


Message: 13
   Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 11:12:37 -0400 (EDT)
   From: mittner@webtv.net
Subject: (Structure)

List,

   Does anyone know if " STILL WATER " was a PRR Tower or Station. If
not PRR then what road? Ohio is the locale I beleive.. Thanks, Gary


STILLWATER at MP 20.6 (west of Xenia) was on the west edge of the Dayton area as the single track "Dayton & Western" climbed out of Dayton's Miami Valley towards New Paris and thence Richmond IN.  In the area of Wolf Creek and the Stillwater River, the PRR is taking advantage of these tributaries of the Great Miami to minimize the westbound grade, ultimately a long climbout of some 400 feet elevation.

Although nothing (no siding, no block tower) is marked in the 1956 Buckeye Region ETT, Stillwater remained a remote interlocking as late as 1977.  I believe it once had water facilities for steam.  Back in the 1880's, Stillwater was the crossing point for a narrow gauge line that went west from Dayton and then north through Covington Ohio (a point where PRR's Bradford line crossed the Stillwater River).  Logic says there should have been a station here circa 1900 -- according to the Lines West Passenger Atlas, it was called Stillwater Junction at that time.  Remnants of said intersecting line, standard-gauged and folded into the B&O camp, are visible on a 1926 rail map of Dayton, marked as the B&O Stillwater Br.  However, I don't know if the B&O track was active as far north as Stillwater Jct. at  that date.

If I have any slides of STILLWATER at all, they would show an undistinguished single track (with passing siding?) paralleling a creek/river.  OTOH, Richard D Acton Sr took some great action shots of K4s moving the Blue Ribbon Fleet through here -- consult with Jay Williams at Big Four Graphics (Indianapolis) for prints from RDA, Sr. negatives.

Gary, from your question should I assume you've found a structure pic or drawing?

Rick Tipton
 --part1_105.147989af.29f3ff7b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 18:25:42 -0400 From: David Pfeiffer Subject: [PRR] Request for 1361 I have been volunteering on the 1361 project in Steamtown. While there Saturday, I found that they have moved the tender body inside the shop where it is being worked on. They have found there are no baffles inside the cistern as there should be. Nor does the crew in Steamtown or the museum in Altoona have any drawings for the baffles. With no originals for patterns and no drawings, it will be very difficult to make the required new ones. In fact, even though the K4 crew has hundreds of drawings for various parts of the K4, the only tender drawings they have are for the stoker. The tender is 130P75 number 3950. I am requesting that if you have in your possession, have access to, or know where copies of drawings could be obtained, please let me know by responding to this message or contact Bill Frederickson at Steamtown on 570-340-5226. Thanks for whatever help you can provide. Dave Pfeiffer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 21:06:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Request for 1361 Dave, I sure hope someone comes thru with something to help you guys out. Here is a few possible suggestions? 1. Take a trip to Strasburg (maybe as a last resort) and get permission to enter the Tender water hatch of the K4 there. A Camera, Lighting, measuring tools would be needed of course. (hmmm, maybe a complete tender swap?) 2. I checked the 1947 Locomotive Cyclopedia. They have drawings of the 130p75 tender there. Not sure if it is useful but they have some info there. The baffles appear to be bolted to the frame and cistern ceiling. 3. Check with Bob Johnson of the Lewistown Station Archives. Maybe something ended up there...... ....Good Luck, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 08:27:43 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: Puns in Business Names on Model RR My favorite has always been "Peoples Natural Gas"! In Pittsburgh as I recall. Unfortunately, not a major rail customer. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== VVA249@aol.com wrote: > It took me years to "Catch on" to John Allen's "Gorre and Daphedid" and > his railroad had puns within puns - not to mention the Dinosaurs with MOW > loco numbers on their flanks and besides I thought that the racist joke asked > why, with all their kite technology, the Chinese didn't make the first > airplane: > "Two Wongs couldn't make a Wright" > Returning to the original tangent - I have for real - seen the LUMPE coal > company made sales calls on the Boom Boiler Works, visited Dr. Foote, > Podiatrist, and - when I visit Alliance, Ohio. I usually get stopped by the > traffic light in front of Dr. Stiffe, urologist - though I've yet to require > his services. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 09:01:29 -0500 From: James Stob Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: Puns in Business Names on Model RR Many will recall the old PNG commercial that said......"did you know that over 70 per cent of the people in Pittsburgh have gas?" Jim "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > My favorite has always been "Peoples Natural Gas"! In Pittsburgh as I recall. > Unfortunately, not a major rail customer. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > VVA249@aol.com wrote: > > > It took me years to "Catch on" to John Allen's "Gorre and Daphedid" and > > his railroad had puns within puns - not to mention the Dinosaurs with MOW > > loco numbers on their flanks and besides I thought that the racist joke asked > > why, with all their kite technology, the Chinese didn't make the first > > airplane: > > "Two Wongs couldn't make a Wright" > > Returning to the original tangent - I have for real - seen the LUMPE coal > > company made sales calls on the Boom Boiler Works, visited Dr. Foote, > > Podiatrist, and - when I visit Alliance, Ohio. I usually get stopped by the > > traffic light in front of Dr. Stiffe, urologist - though I've yet to require > > his services. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > -- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] TANGENT: NS maintenance Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 08:59:07 -0400 Tangent: NS maintenance, please respond off list. Does anyone know who to contact at NS to have the grade crossings reinstalled on my farm? NS recently reprofiled the ballast and graded their right of way along the old Monongahela RR branch to Blacksville WVa and totally eliminated the crossings I use to reach the western end of my farm. The steep bank created by this work is too unsafe a grade even for my tractor. Lew Matt Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic and Energy Systems Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 12:19:22 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Local freight service - Buffalo line Frank and the group, According to the January 1, 1969 Penn Central _Through Freight Schedule_ the following symbols were used for locals operating between Northumberland and Williamsport. E6/E7 Newberry (Williamsport) to Milton and return Dailey except Saturday and Sunday E7/E8 Northumberland to Milton and Return Dailey except Saturday Switches Montandon Branch to Mifflinburg Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays S98/S97 Northumberland to Nescopeck Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays Northumberland to South Danville Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays S390/S391 From Northumberland Switches Shamokin Branch to Mount Carmel Dailey except Sunday WB1 Berwick to Newberry (Williamsport) Berwick Branch Switching Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays WB2 Newberry (Williamsport) to Berwick Berwick Branch Switching Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays These symbols are probably the same symbols used by the PRR for its locals. However those indicating working in/out of Newberry would have worked in/out of Williamsport Yard. Checking the PRR’s _Through Freight Train Schedules Between Principle Points_ from February 1952 (available as a .pdf file from Jerry’s web site) shows the same symbols as connecting trains. Other symbols probably used for locals working in/out of Northumberland are S71, E/5 and E10. I was unable to find any additional information about those trains though. Also, arranged freight BF14 stopped to pick up radio and TV cabinets from Watsontown Cabinet Company according to the PRR 1952 _Through Freight Train Schedule…_. Hopefully this information was of some help. Maybe others in the group can provide some additional details on these locals. Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 10:53 PM 4/15/02 -0500, Frank & Andrea Amato wrote: >Hi all, > >I'm sketching some preliminary layout plans and am curious about local >freights serving the towns between Northumberland and Williamsport. An open >staging yard will represent these two towns, on the north and south "ends" >of my layout. > >I have seen Mark Bej's through freight schedules, but haven't come across >any info regarding locals circa 1960. Ya gotta have some switching in the >smaller towns for interesting operations, IMO. > >Note - prior to posting, I did search the PRR-talk database - a great tool! > >Thanks in advance! > > Frank ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR (Gary Mittner Cabin Cars) Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 12:41:03 -0400 Group, I attended the Beaver Co model train show over the weekend. I got to see Gary's PRR Cabin cars in person. I feel he needs commended for his modeling skills! He is an example of the reason we have better and better models from the manufactures. The detail was astounding! Just needed to recognize his work. Sam Vastano McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. PH 724-368-8040 X243 Fax 724-368-9677 _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 13:01:39 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Counting cabins, Lines East and Lines West In a message dated 4/11/02 4:12:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > I previously > asked what percentage of cabeese on Lines West (Ohio circa 1948) > would have been N6 as opposed to N5, or any other class. I don't > remember seeing a response. > > You didn't receive a response because I don't think the data is available. Somewhere on the web is a detailed listing of caboose assignments circa 1955. Many hours of work with that listing could develop some stats by, say, division or state. Then addition could give an answer for 1955. Dead nuts it's the wrong answer for 1948. A much quicker methodology is to look at the caboose numbers. There were roughly: 600 N5 and N5B 200 N5C 200 N8 for 1000 steel caboose numbers. With photos available of the woodsheathed N6A and N6B from 980020 up to at least 982402, there may have been as many as 2400 N6's. Additional facts/guesses/rumors: 1. the steel cabooses used number series that were ancestral PRR Lines East nonrevenue numbers. Fragmentary evidence shows there were Lines East woodies from, say 475843 to 476488. That number series may have been all ND (or not!). 2. the N6A and N6B used ancestral Lines West nonrevenue numbers. After a lot of study, I have only the most fragmentary evidence of what number series were rebuilt as N6's, except that it's pretty certain the feedstock bobbers' numbers were in the same vicinity. 3. as train length grew rapidly between 1910 and 1930, it's an easy bet that number of cabins needed went down, on both Lines East and Lines West. The first to go were (we assume) the unrebuilt bobbers. Count of actual cars in service had to shrink radically from the days of the 4-wheel woodie to the 1914 designs (N5 and N6) and on to the post WW2 world. I'm assuming Lines East went at least through WW2 with the classes of 8 wheel woodsheathed cabins they had (N4, NDa, definitely not N6). By about 1964, wood cabins across the whole PRR system were becoming scarce, and the few left were virtually all N6b. Last N6b picture I'm aware of (in service) is in Philadelphia 1964, but there should have been survivors around Columbus, because one of them went to Ohio Railway Museum. We can hope further info surfaces in the PRRT&HS archives at Lewistown. A brave group of volunteers is trying to make that collection useful for the rest of us, particularly us outlanders far away from the Keystone State. Maybe we can talk about these subjects some at Camp Hill next week. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West Modeling Ohio 1968 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 13:01:39 EDT Subject: [PRR] Counting cabins, Lines East and Lines West --part1_17f.72dc6e0.29f59bf3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/11/02 4:12:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > I previously > asked what percentage of cabeese on Lines West (Ohio circa 1948) > would have been N6 as opposed to N5, or any other class. I don't > remember seeing a response. > > You didn't receive a response because I don't think the data is available. Somewhere on the web is a detailed listing of caboose assignments circa 1955. Many hours of work with that listing could develop some stats by, say, division or state. Then addition could give an answer for 1955. Dead nuts it's the wrong answer for 1948. A much quicker methodology is to look at the caboose numbers. There were roughly: 600 N5 and N5B 200 N5C 200 N8 for 1000 steel caboose numbers. With photos available of the woodsheathed N6A and N6B from 980020 up to at least 982402, there may have been as many as 2400 N6's. Additional facts/guesses/rumors: 1. the steel cabooses used number series that were ancestral PRR Lines East nonrevenue numbers. Fragmentary evidence shows there were Lines East woodies from, say 475843 to 476488. That number series may have been all ND (or not!). 2. the N6A and N6B used ancestral Lines West nonrevenue numbers. After a lot of study, I have only the most fragmentary evidence of what number series were rebuilt as N6's, except that it's pretty certain the feedstock bobbers' numbers were in the same vicinity. 3. as train length grew rapidly between 1910 and 1930, it's an easy bet that number of cabins needed went down, on both Lines East and Lines West. The first to go were (we assume) the unrebuilt bobbers. Count of actual cars in service had to shrink radically from the days of the 4-wheel woodie to the 1914 designs (N5 and N6) and on to the post WW2 world. I'm assuming Lines East went at least through WW2 with the classes of 8 wheel woodsheathed cabins they had (N4, NDa, definitely not N6). By about 1964, wood cabins across the whole PRR system were becoming scarce, and the few left were virtually all N6b. Last N6b picture I'm aware of (in service) is in Philadelphia 1964, but there should have been survivors around Columbus, because one of them went to Ohio Railway Museum. We can hope further info surfaces in the PRRT&HS archives at Lewistown. A brave group of volunteers is trying to make that collection useful for the rest of us, particularly us outlanders far away from the Keystone State. Maybe we can talk about these subjects some at Camp Hill next week. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West Modeling Ohio 1968 --part1_17f.72dc6e0.29f59bf3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/11/02 4:12:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes:


I previously
asked what percentage of cabeese on Lines West (Ohio circa 1948)
would have been N6 as opposed to N5, or any other class. I don't
remember seeing a response.



You didn't receive a response because I don't think the data is available.  Somewhere on the web is a detailed listing of caboose assignments circa 1955.  Many hours of work with that listing could develop some stats by, say, division or state.  Then addition could give an answer for 1955.  Dead nuts it's the wrong answer for 1948.

A much quicker methodology is to look at the caboose numbers.  There were roughly:
       600 N5 and N5B
       200 N5C
       200 N8

for 1000 steel caboose numbers.  With photos available of the woodsheathed N6A and N6B from  980020 up to at least 982402, there may have been as many as 2400 N6's.

Additional facts/guesses/rumors:
1. the steel cabooses used number series that were ancestral PRR Lines East nonrevenue numbers.  Fragmentary evidence shows there were Lines East woodies from, say 475843 to 476488.  That number series may have been all ND (or not!).
2. the N6A and N6B used ancestral Lines West nonrevenue numbers.  After a lot of study, I have only the most fragmentary evidence of what number series were rebuilt as N6's, except that it's pretty certain the feedstock bobbers' numbers were in the same vicinity.
3. as train length grew rapidly between 1910 and 1930, it's an easy bet that number of cabins needed went down, on both Lines East and Lines West.  The first to go were (we assume) the unrebuilt bobbers.  Count of actual cars in service had to shrink radically from the days of the 4-wheel woodie to the 1914 designs (N5 and N6) and on to the post WW2 world.  I'm assuming Lines East went at least through WW2 with the classes of 8 wheel woodsheathed cabins they had (N4, NDa, definitely not N6).  By about 1964, wood cabins across the whole PRR system were becoming scarce, and the few left were virtually all N6b.  Last N6b picture I'm aware of (in service) is in Philadelphia 1964, but there should have been survivors around Columbus, because one of them went to Ohio Railway Museum.

We can hope further info surfaces in the PRRT&HS archives at Lewistown.  A brave group of volunteers is trying to make that collection useful for the rest of us, particularly us outlanders far away from the Keystone State.

Maybe we can talk about these subjects some at Camp Hill next week.


Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West
Modeling Ohio 1968 --part1_17f.72dc6e0.29f59bf3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 13:49:35 -0400 From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Local freight service - Buffalo line On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 12:19:22PM -0400, Drew McGhee wrote: > Frank and the group, > > in/out of Williamsport Yard. Checking the PRR’s _Through Freight Train > Schedules Between Principle Points_ from February 1952 (available as a .pdf > file from Jerry’s web site) shows the same symbols as connecting trains. > >I have seen Mark Bej's through freight schedules, but haven't come across > >any info regarding locals circa 1960. Ya gotta have some switching in the > >smaller towns for interesting operations, IMO. Frank, I don't know how the PRR referred to these trains. Some "local" trains (quotes mean - you or I would look at the schedule, and it looks like a local to us) - had symbols similar to all the others, i.e., 1-3 letters, dash, 1-2 numbers. (Note many schedules specifically indicate that the train does local work between X and Y - sometimes the representing the entire route.) Note, however, that in a number of cases, the connecting train listed is not given in the schedule book; and some of these had train numbers of the form: 4 digits, dash, letter. Presumably these were "real local" locals. (quotes mean - I'm making up terminology to try to convey my meaning) What we need, frankly, is for a former-PRR Traffic Dept employee to explain all this to us. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 14:31:23 -0400 From: Dave Pfeiffer Subject: Re: [PRR] Request for 1361 Gary, Thanks for the suggestions. I believe Bill Frederickson (K4 project manager) is already planning to contact Strasburg. How do I get in touch with Bob Johnson? Dave At 09:06 PM 4/21/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Dave, > > I sure hope someone comes thru with something to help you guys out. >Here is a few possible suggestions? > >1. Take a trip to Strasburg (maybe as a last resort) and get permission >to enter the Tender water hatch of the K4 there. A Camera, Lighting, >measuring tools would be needed of course. (hmmm, maybe a complete >tender swap?) > >2. I checked the 1947 Locomotive Cyclopedia. They have drawings of the >130p75 tender there. Not sure if it is useful but they have some info >there. >The baffles appear to be bolted to the frame and cistern ceiling. > >3. Check with Bob Johnson of the Lewistown Station Archives. Maybe >something ended up there...... > >....Good Luck, Gary > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 14:34:19 -0400 From: Dave Pfeiffer Subject: RE: [PRR] Request for 1361 Rob, Thanks. I'm pretty sure that the Steamtown guys haven't contacted anyone except the Altoona museum. I'll look into the State archieves. Dave At 10:37 PM 4/21/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Another source for PRR mechanical drawings is the Pennsylvania State >archives in Harrisburg. I'm guessing you guys have probably looked >there already but just in case I figured I'd mention it. I think they >have 500 or so rolls of PRR mechanical drawings on microfilm... > >Rob > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 14:35:50 -0400 From: Dave Pfeiffer Subject: Re: [PRR] Request for 1361 Dan, Thanks for the suggestion. Dave At 01:08 AM 4/22/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Dave: > >Check with someone at the Pennsylvania State Archives, a division of the >Pennsylvania Historical and Museum Commission, which has thousands of >PRR drawings in the Archives Tower in Harrisburg (corner of 3rd & >Forster Sts.). Joe Acri is a volunteer who has spent much time there >helping sort and organize them, and he should know the most about them. >Whoever is responsible for the PRR drawings at the Archives these days >should be able to put you in contact with Joe. > >Dan Cupper > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Doubleheaded T-1's and the PJ&B MP54 Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 19:34:50 +0000 looking through Ball's The PRR in the 40's and 50's and it dawned on me that the picture of doubleheaded T-1's on horsehoe is the only picture I have ever seen of them doubleheaded. Was this a rarity? Also the PJ&B MP-54 has a drumhead logo that appears to be the Princeton University logo in a keystone. Is this corect? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 17:08:39 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Walthers latest I just bought several of the Walthers PRR Congo parlor cars (the ones they call "lounges") and three of the Seaboard 52 seat coaches decorated for ACL. I am not sure why Walthers offered a Seaboard coach and lettered it for every road but Seaboard. I thought Bachmann had patented that trick ;-) All that aside, the cars a gorgeous. The ACL prototype cars were 54 seat coaches and so are "off" by just half a window. I have noticed two problems however. The PRR decals are are nowhere near as dense as the lettering on the nameboard. One has to squint with the light from the right angle in order to see the names decaled on the cars. The other problem is easily fixable, the couplers are some variety of Kadee knockoff (McHenry?). They have a plastic finger spring on the knuckle. One or two hard couplings and it takes a set and will never again close. Besides which, all the couplers appear to be half a coupler head high according to my NMRA gauge. The solution is a Kadee #42. Its a drop-in replacement. I wish Kadee would finish the 50 series. I would rather use a #52 with a scale size head, if they made them. I am also painting the seats in appropriate colors. It makes a big difference in the appearance of the cars. I have found that using an X-Acto knife blade to remove the roof, as Walthers suggests, can mar the edge of the roof. I use a very small artist spatula - a very useful tool for many purposes. But in this case, its thin, but not sharp, edge is perfect. I have never figured out how to remover the interior casting. It appears to glued into the car, however, I can pry the sides loose from the frame and hold it away from the seats while I paint the edges of the seatbacks. BTW I painted the roofs (and trucks) of my ACL coaches black. AFAIK they were silver for only a year or two after their 1946 delivery. So in my early 50s time frame, they should be black. Thanx to all of you who answered my RFI on that subject. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 17:35:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers latest --part1_c6.a5a7ff7.29f5dc3b_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The interiors have tiny pins that fit into holes in the gray plastic side frame pieces that the sides attach to. Spreading the sides will allow the interior stripes to be lifted out. A few cars have had a little too much glue applied to the conductor strips which has seeped up, through the holes the strips go up through, to glue the interior strips to the under floor. Usually a little gentle prying will separate them. Ditto on Kadee redoing more of their line along the 58's. Amer. Limited's Budd diaphram kits include new coupler boxes that directly replace the Walthers ones and correct the heigth problem. Now what to do with all of the old Kadee 5 couplers?!? Other than the baggage car, the roofson them have mines of theri own, I have found that squeezing the sides while firmly gripping the roof and gently "wiggling" it up removes the roof. Evan Leisey --part1_c6.a5a7ff7.29f5dc3b_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit  The interiors have tiny pins that fit into holes in the gray plastic side frame pieces that the sides attach to.  Spreading the sides will allow the interior stripes to be lifted out.  A few cars have had a little too much glue applied to the conductor strips which has seeped up, through the holes the strips go up through, to glue the interior strips to the under floor. Usually a little gentle prying will separate them.

 Ditto on Kadee redoing more of their line along the 58's.   Amer. Limited's Budd diaphram kits include new coupler boxes that directly replace the Walthers ones and correct the heigth problem.  Now what to do with all of the old Kadee 5 couplers?!?

 Other than the baggage car, the roofson them have mines of theri own, I have found that squeezing the sides while firmly gripping the roof and gently "wiggling" it up removes the roof.

Evan Leisey --part1_c6.a5a7ff7.29f5dc3b_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 18:07:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Doubleheaded T-1's and the PJ&B MP54 In a message dated 4/22/02 2:44:35 PM Central Daylight Time, ndbprr@att.net writes: << looking through Ball's The PRR in the 40's and 50's and it dawned on me that the picture of doubleheaded T-1's on horsehoe is the only picture I have ever seen of them doubleheaded. Was this a rarity? >> I don't know how rare, but I know I have seen at least one video (maybe more) of doubleheaded T1s. Now if I can only get around to finding it. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 19:00:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Doubleheaded T-1's and the PJ&B MP54 From: prrq2 Bob, Norm, I think the video you are thinking of is "Pennsy Glory, Vol. 2" by Herron. It shows a doubleheaded T-1 on Horseshoe Curve. A friend of mine once said that he thought this was not done very often. Most footage I have seen with a T-1 in a doubleheaded situation was with a K-4 in the lead. Bill Ayers > From: Bobspf@aol.com > Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 18:07:34 EDT > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Doubleheaded T-1's and the PJ&B MP54 > I don't know how rare, but I know I have seen at least one video (maybe more) > of doubleheaded T1s. Now if I can only get around to finding it. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 20:17:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: NS maintenance From: "Jerry @ pennsyrr.com" on 4/22/02 7:07 PM, S J Lash at sjlash@tcis.net wrote: > Lew, Have you tried their web site? E-Mail would probably get the quickest > response. Jim Lash Call 'em and tell them the grade is so steep you got your truck stuck on it. That ought to get 'em on-site real quick! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 8:59 AM > Subject: [PRR] TANGENT: NS maintenance > > >> Tangent: NS maintenance, please respond off list. >> >> Does anyone know who to contact at NS to have the grade crossings >> reinstalled on my farm? NS recently reprofiled the ballast and graded > their >> right of way along the old Monongahela RR branch to Blacksville WVa and >> totally eliminated the crossings I use to reach the western end of my > farm. >> The steep bank created by this work is too unsafe a grade even for my >> tractor. >> >> Lew Matt >> >> Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic and Energy Systems >> Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton jerry@pennsyrr.com http://kc.pennsyrr.com Modeling the PRR in 1954 in N scale -- http//kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: NS maintenance Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 20:25:52 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1EA3B.E5B68A40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lew: Try the Division Engineers Office. His office will get you in touch with = the Track Supervisor assigned to your track. You can maybe have him meet = you at your property frontage and see the grades of the crossings. If the= work involved was performed by a tie or surfacing gang and these gangs a= re not local and may even be divisional or regional. =20 I hope that this helps! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana (former Conrail MW worker) =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry @ pennsyrr.com Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 7:23 PM To: S J Lash; Lewis J. Matt PhD; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: NS maintenance =20 on 4/22/02 7:07 PM, S J Lash at sjlash@tcis.net wrote: > Lew, Have you tried their web site? E-Mail would probably get the qui= ckest > response. Jim Lash Call 'em and tell them the grade is so steep you got your truck stuck on = it. That ought to get 'em on-site real quick! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" > To: > Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 8:59 AM > Subject: [PRR] TANGENT: NS maintenance > > >> Tangent: NS maintenance, please respond off list. >> >> Does anyone know who to contact at NS to have the grade crossings >> reinstalled on my farm? NS recently reprofiled the ballast and graded > their >> right of way along the old Monongahela RR branch to Blacksville WVa an= d >> totally eliminated the crossings I use to reach the western end of my > farm. >> The steep bank created by this work is too unsafe a grade even for my >> tractor. >> >> Lew Matt >> >> Synergistic Solutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic and Energy Syst= ems >> Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------= - >> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Jerry Britton jerry@pennsyrr.com http://kc.pennsyrr.com Modeling the PRR in 1954 in N scale -- http//kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1EA3B.E5B68A40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lew:
 
Try the Division Engineers Office. His office will ge= t you in touch with the Track Supervisor assigned to your track. You=  can maybe have him meet you at your property frontage and see the g= rades of the crossings. If the work involved was performed by a tie or su= rfacing gang and these gangs are not local and may even be divisional or = regional.
 
I hope that this helps!
 
 
Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indi= ana
(former Conrail MW worker)
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Jerry @ pennsyrr.com
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 = 7:23 PM
To: S J Lash; Lewis = J. Matt PhD; prr-talk@dsop.com
S= ubject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT: NS maintenance
 
on 4= /22/02 7:07 PM, S J  Lash at sjlash@tcis.net wrote:

> Lew,=   Have you tried their web site?  E-Mail would probably get the= quickest
> response.  Jim Lash

Call 'em and tell them = the grade is so steep you got your truck stuck on it.
That ought to ge= t 'em on-site real quick!
> ----- Original Message -----
> Fr= om: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" <lmatt@alltel.net>
> To: <prr-talk= @dsop.com>
> Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 8:59 AM
> Subjec= t: [PRR] TANGENT: NS maintenance
>
>
>> Tangent: NS = maintenance, please respond off list.
>>
>> Does anyone= know who to contact at NS to have the grade crossings
>> reinst= alled on my farm?  NS recently reprofiled the ballast and graded
= > their
>> right of way along the old Monongahela RR branch t= o Blacksville WVa and
>> totally eliminated the crossings I use = to reach the western end of my
> farm.
>> The steep bank c= reated by this work is too unsafe a grade even for my
>> tractor= .
>>
>> Lew Matt
>>
>> Synergistic So= lutions: Alternative, Sustainable Septic and Energy Systems
>> L= ewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O.
>>
>>
>> ---= --------------------------------------------------------------------
&= gt;> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com= .
>>
>
>
> -----------------------------------= ------------------------------------
> For assistance with this lis= t, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

---------------------------= -------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton &= nbsp;     jerry@pennsyrr.com    &= nbsp;     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
Modeling the PRR = in 1954 in N scale -- http//kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/


----------= -------------------------------------------------------------
For assi= stance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C1EA3B.E5B68A40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bill Lane Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 21:49:45 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] 210F75a tender Hi All, Does anyone have the list of tracings or the list of tracings number for the 210F75a tender? Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: STEVEGG1@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 02:18:29 EDT Subject: [PRR] Request for 1361 --part1_e.1dd28f89.29f656b5_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave, I spoke to a friend at the RR Museum of PA, and he suggested you might want to contact (call or write ) David Dunn, director of the museum. Steve Panopoulos --part1_e.1dd28f89.29f656b5_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dave,
I spoke to a friend at the RR Museum of PA, and he suggested you  might want to contact (call or write ) David Dunn, director of the museum.
Steve Panopoulos









--part1_e.1dd28f89.29f656b5_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:18:42 -0400 Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention From: Jerry Britton Anyone salivating? The PRRT&HS annual convention is just over a week away! For those planning to go to layout open houses, I was the one who prepared this year's tour. If you'd care to, you can download a PDF of the Tour Booklet from http://kc.pennsyrr.com/prrths/ On May 1 (or earlier!) I will announce the aforementioned "new product" that will be on display at the convention. Lots of good guesses thus far. As in prior years, I welcome all PRR-talk subscribers to stop by the PENNSYRR.COM tables. We should be right inside the door, to the right, as in prior years. If so, there is usually some extra space to mingle. Always good to attach faces to the names you've been seeing "on list". If you don't have any other place to be, be there! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:35:38 -0400 Jerry, How about one hint. Does it have wheels or not? If it doesn't is it the new brick tower? Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 10:19 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Anyone salivating? The PRRT&HS annual convention is just over a week away! For those planning to go to layout open houses, I was the one who prepared this year's tour. If you'd care to, you can download a PDF of the Tour Booklet from http://kc.pennsyrr.com/prrths/ On May 1 (or earlier!) I will announce the aforementioned "new product" that will be on display at the convention. Lots of good guesses thus far. As in prior years, I welcome all PRR-talk subscribers to stop by the PENNSYRR.COM tables. We should be right inside the door, to the right, as in prior years. If so, there is usually some extra space to mingle. Always good to attach faces to the names you've been seeing "on list". If you don't have any other place to be, be there! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 10:39:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention From: Jerry Britton On 4/23/02 10:35 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > How about one hint. Does it have wheels or not? If it doesn't is it the > new brick tower? > Yes, it has wheels! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 23 Apr 02 17:16:04 EDT From: LINKM@timken.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Gold Buff List: Anyone know who makes a paint that is a good approximation for PRR Gold B uff? Also, where can one find a decal for an HO scale smokebox front number pla te? Mine is a Bowser I know they will be extremely small, but I'll try. As far as the paint goes, I'm not particular to either water or oil based paints, so t hat does not matter. I really do not want to mix different colors either, the s mall ring around the number platewon't bring out the paint police! Thanks! Matt Link ********************************************************************** This message and any attachments are intended for the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, please do not forward, copy, print, use or disclose this communication to others; also please notify the sender by replying to this message, and then delete it from your system. The Timken Company ********************************************************************** ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Frank & Andrea Amato" Subject: Re: [PRR] Local freight service - Buffalo line Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:33:32 -0500 Mark and Drew, Thank you both for the replies! I am privy to the freight schedules on your website, Mark - vintage 1960, which is *perfect* for the era in which I'm interested. The notes do show which of these trains performed switching en route. I guess when I wrote "local" I pictured a single engine with a small train that performed setouts / pickups exclusively. The scan that Al Buchan sent documents trains E-5/E-6 (Northumberland - W'port) and WB-1/WB2 (W'port - Berwick), which would apply to the area I'm interested in modeling. Some others operating out of Northumberland to the south would be "off the layout". I too would like to see a former PRR employee weigh in on the naming schemes! Frank ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Bej" To: "Drew McGhee" Cc: "Frank & Andrea Amato" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Local freight service - Buffalo line > On Mon, Apr 22, 2002 at 12:19:22PM -0400, Drew McGhee wrote: > > Frank and the group, > > > > in/out of Williamsport Yard. Checking the PRR's _Through Freight Train > > Schedules Between Principle Points_ from February 1952 (available as a .pdf > > file from Jerry's web site) shows the same symbols as connecting trains. > > > >I have seen Mark Bej's through freight schedules, but haven't come across > > >any info regarding locals circa 1960. Ya gotta have some switching in the > > >smaller towns for interesting operations, IMO. > > Frank, > I don't know how the PRR referred to these trains. Some "local" trains > (quotes mean - you or I would look at the schedule, and it looks like > a local to us) - had symbols similar to all the others, i.e., 1-3 > letters, dash, 1-2 numbers. (Note many schedules specifically indicate > that the train does local work between X and Y - sometimes the representing > the entire route.) > > Note, however, that in a number of cases, the connecting train listed > is not given in the schedule book; and some of these had train numbers > of the form: 4 digits, dash, letter. Presumably these were "real local" > locals. (quotes mean - I'm making up terminology to try to convey my > meaning) > > What we need, frankly, is for a former-PRR Traffic Dept employee to > explain all this to us. > > -- > Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 08:25:48 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gold Buff Matt asks: >List: Anyone know who makes a paint that is a good approximation for PRR >Gold B >uff? Also, where can one find a decal for an HO scale smokebox front >number pla >te? Mine is a Bowser I know they will be extremely small, but I'll try. As far >as the paint goes, I'm not particular to either water or oil based paints, >so t >hat does not matter. I really do not want to mix different colors either, >the s >mall ring around the number platewon't bring out the paint police! Thanks! I use Poly Scale PRR buff for the paint, and a variety of sources for the tiny numbers (2"?) for the front number. I don't know if the new microscale sheet has them, but older microscale and Champ buff sets have number jumbles for this....yes...you have to go and cut out individual numbers . I do this by using a magnifying lens, and then just getting the paper wet. The number slides off with a very small paintbrush which I use to apply the number. Once they are arranged properly, a drop of setting solution is CAREFULLY added and then clear coat. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 09:30:20 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Counting cabins, Lines East and Lines West Rick said: >I'm assuming Lines East went at least through WW2 with the classes of 8 >wheel woodsheathed cabins they had (N4, NDa, definitely not N6). Rick, can you clarify this statement with regard to N6 cabins on lines East? I had always felt that there was a pretty significant presence of N6B cabins prior to WWII since the numbers of other classes of 8 wheel wood cabins was pretty small. In addition, I thought the NDa were confined in large part to the Chesapeake Division? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 12:54:16 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR MOW Equipment --part1_60.1ede6313.29f83d38_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone out there in PRR land know of a go website that features pictures of PRR MOW equipment? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Jon S. PRRT&HS #3079 --part1_60.1ede6313.29f83d38_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone out there in PRR land know of a go website that features pictures of PRR MOW equipment? Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Jon S.
PRRT&HS #3079 --part1_60.1ede6313.29f83d38_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:08:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR MOW Equipment From: Jerry Britton On 4/24/02 12:54 PM, JONS6755@aol.com (JONS6755@aol.com) wrote: > Does anyone out there in PRR land know of a go website that features pictures > of PRR MOW equipment? Any help would be appreciated. > If someone could put one together, I'll host it... http://mow.pennsyrr.com Just need an authoritative source to provide photos and info. Al Buchan, you listening? ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:18:00 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR MOW Equipment >Does anyone out there in PRR land know of a go website that features >pictures of PRR MOW equipment? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Jon >S. PRRT&HS #3079 Jon, There are a few shots buried in the listing on George Elwood's site http://www.dnaco.net/~gelwood/other/prr.html but not organized site that I know of. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 14:25:07 -0400 From: WAJK4@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Y4 Scale Test Car I am hoping that someone, or hopefully more than one person, would be able to help me with a Y4 scale test car kit that I am working on. The kit was built by a company with the initials of "DJH" surrounded by the words "Materpieces in Miniature." I am looking for decals for this car. So far I have not been able to find any while looking through various web sites. I am also wondering if this company is still in business or what happened to them. Are there still some kits available and what else did they make? The package that this kit came in has a Hicksville, NY address, but it says that it was made in England. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Walt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 13:44:20 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Y4 Scale Test Car Walt, >I am hoping that someone, or hopefully more than one person, would be able >to help me with a Y4 scale test car kit that I am working on. The kit was >built by a company with the initials of "DJH" surrounded by the words >"Materpieces in Miniature." I am looking for decals for this car. So far >I have not been able to find any while looking through various web sites. >I am also wondering if this company is still in business or what happened >to them. Are there still some kits available and what else did they make? >The package that this kit came in has a Hicksville, NY address, but it >says that it was made in England. Any help would be greatly appreciated. >Thank you. DJH is in fact an english company that makes spectacular locomotive kits. I did a search and did not find the scale test car. In fact the only american loco that they have is BEAUTIFUL HO model of an export steam loco that would have been built by Baldwin, and others in 1942-44, and might well have been seen on PRR rails on the way to the docks! http://www.djhmodelloco.co.uk/acatalog/ As for the decals...white on a black car right?...I think you're gonna be piecing this together from a Champ PRR MOW or Derrick set :^( Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Y4 Scale Test Car Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 14:49:45 -0400 IIRC, DJH products were imported by N.J International. I hope this helps. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 2:25 PM Subject: [PRR] Y4 Scale Test Car > I am hoping that someone, or hopefully more than one person, would be able to help me with a Y4 scale test car kit that I am working on. The kit was built by a company with the initials of "DJH" surrounded by the words "Materpieces in Miniature." I am looking for decals for this car. So far I have not been able to find any while looking through various web sites. I am also wondering if this company is still in business or what happened to them. Are there still some kits available and what else did they make? The package that this kit came in has a Hicksville, NY address, but it says that it was made in England. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. > > > Walt > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 17:26:48 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR MOW Equipment --part1_38.26e2e8ad.29f87d18_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/24/02 1:02:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JONS6755@aol.com writes: > > Does anyone out there in PRR land know of a go website that features > pictures of PRR MOW equipment? Any help would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > Jon S. > PRRT&HS #3079 Hi Jon and others, Allen Underkophler has a page with photos of XL bunk cars and recreation cars on his "Pennsylvania Pages" web site at: http://www.chesco.com/~apu/prr/ Andy Hart PRRT&HS 92 --part1_38.26e2e8ad.29f87d18_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/24/02 1:02:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JONS6755@aol.com writes:

Does anyone out there in PRR land know of a go website that features pictures of PRR MOW equipment? Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Jon S.
PRRT&HS #3079


Hi Jon and others,

Allen Underkophler has a page with photos of XL bunk cars and recreation cars on his "Pennsylvania Pages" web site at:

http://www.chesco.com/~apu/prr/

Andy Hart PRRT&HS 92 --part1_38.26e2e8ad.29f87d18_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 22:19:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Y4 Scale Test Car Both editions of PRR rolling stock, in color, have photos of scale test cars ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 22:35:31 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gold Buff In a message dated 4/24/02 9:33:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << Yes...you have to go and cut out individual numbers . I do this by using a magnifying lens, and then just getting the paper wet. The number slides off with a very small paintbrush which I use to apply the number. Once they are arranged properly, a drop of setting solution is CAREFULLY added and then clear coat. >> In HO scale I applied the small decal numbers to blank decal or dry transfer paper - once they were set, I applied them to the car or locomotive. I believe, however, that "O" scale ultimate solution to your problem ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 07:19:16 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Layout tour Directions correction Listers, If you are planning to attend the layout tour and visit my layout, The Cornwall Railroad, I must make a small correction in the directions that I sent Jerry for my layout. In the PDF file the directions tell you to pull up my driveway and park behind behind the house. Since I do not own a parking garage this will not be possible. The driveway will be reserved for my operating crew for that evening. My The directions were created for operating session visitors and I forgot to modify them for the tour. Klinger Lane is a road on the left just past the trailer park. It is right before you get to the barn mentioned in the directions. There is plenty of parking there for everyone. Please park your cars there and take the short walk on Windy Hill Rd. to my house. My driveway will be marked by a crossbuck at the top by my house. I ask that you please walk up the driveway and watch out for traffic on Windy Hill Rd. My neighbor has been informed of the tour and will expect to see cars parked along Klinger Lane. Please do not block his driveway or cut across his yard to get to my house. My apologies for any inconvenience caused by this change. As for the coffee offer, that too will not be available during the open house. However, if you find you would like to join our Saturday night group, I will make sure that a cup with your name on it will be hung on the cup rack. Regards, Nick Kulp http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 08:21:30 -0400 From: TWRimer@uss.com Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 04/25/02 Are there any records out there that would show the last year of operation for steam power on a specific division or branch? I'm interested in the Allegheny Branch and the last year that steam motive power was rostered. Thank you, Tom Rimer twrimer@uss.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 08:41:50 -0400 From: WAJK4@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Y4 Scale Test Car I would like to thank everyone who has been helping me with this project. I forgot to let you know that the "paint scheme" is for the early 1950s, and the color guides have pictures from the 1960s. I have a document that says some of the scale test cars were painted boxcar red, but I have not been able to locate anything else that would support this claim. Can anyone help me with this, and if there were some in this color, when were they painted this way. I am tending to lean away from this color and just go with the standard black. Thanks again. Walt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bruce Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Y4 Scale Test Car Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 09:14:12 -0400 Walt, Could you please tell what document you are referring to? The reason I am interested is that I have one of the Walther's scale cars that came out a few years ago. It is in box car red. I had assumed that I should re-paint it black someday when I found suitable decals. Actually, I too would like it in black better, but if there where protypes in red that changes the priorities somewhat, as I have a lot of other models in need of correcting Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 8:41 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Y4 Scale Test Car > I would like to thank everyone who has been helping me with this project. I forgot to let you know that the "paint scheme" is for the early 1950s, and the color guides have pictures from the 1960s. I have a document that says some of the scale test cars were painted boxcar red, but I have not been able to locate anything else that would support this claim. Can anyone help me with this, and if there were some in this color, when were they painted this way. I am tending to lean away from this color and just go with the standard black. Thanks again. > > > Walt > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Y4 Scale Test Car Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 14:18:00 +0000 You do realize that with all the restrictions for scale test cars you may invalidate its purpose by repainting it? You better weigh that new paint job and have the car retested before going back into service so you don't cost the railroad millions of dollars from a faulty standard. It might even get you fired. LOL Norm Bell > Walt, > > Could you please tell what document you are referring to? The reason I am > interested is that I have one of the Walther's scale cars that came out a > few years ago. It is in box car red. I had assumed that I should re-paint it > black someday when I found suitable decals. Actually, I too would like it in > black better, but if there where protypes in red that changes the priorities > somewhat, as I have a lot of other models in need of correcting > > Bruce > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 8:41 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Y4 Scale Test Car > > > > I would like to thank everyone who has been helping me with this project. > I forgot to let you know that the "paint scheme" is for the early 1950s, and > the color guides have pictures from the 1960s. I have a document that says > some of the scale test cars were painted boxcar red, but I have not been > able to locate anything else that would support this claim. Can anyone help > me with this, and if there were some in this color, when were they painted > this way. I am tending to lean away from this color and just go with the > standard black. Thanks again. > > > > > > Walt > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 10:37:16 -0400 From: WAJK4@aol.com Subject: Re: Re: [PRR] Y4 Scale Test Car Just to let everyone know, I am starting from an undecorated kit, which is why I was inquiring as to what color would be suitable. As for the article, it is from "The Model Railroader", November 193? (the date was cut off in the photo copy) p.418. Directly under the words "Scale Test Car... Pennsylvania RR... ...painted box car red with white lettering." This is what sparked my interest. And if you weren't confused already, an article in "The Keystone" (possibly 1977) states that scale test cars may have been painted "in the old MOW colors, gray with black lettering" but the authors have never seen documentation to support these reports. Anyone else confused yet? Walt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 12:45:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] telephone poles Can someone tell me which color the wires from telephone poles was, on photos it appears to be green. Along which lines could you still find many telephone poles in the early 50's? What was the standard: 2, 4 or 5 crossarms? Were they used next to electrified lines? Thanks in advance. Geoffrey __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] telephone poles Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 15:21:32 -0500 The cable on telephone poles were copper. So any color range of oxidizing copper would be acceptable green being about the oldest. In the 50's pretty much any main line would have had telegraph poles still in existance. Essentially the primary means of communications and power (for lineside equipment) for the railroads. Electrified lines would still need additional means for communication and signal cables so the lines had to be somewhere. Patrick > > From: Geoffrey Van Dooren > Date: 2002/04/25 Thu PM 02:45:09 CDT > To: PRR talk list > Subject: [PRR] telephone poles > > Can someone tell me which color the wires from > telephone poles was, on photos it appears to be green. > Along which lines could you still find many telephone > poles in the early 50's? What was the standard: 2, 4 > or 5 crossarms? Were they used next to electrified > lines? > Thanks in advance. > > Geoffrey > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more > http://games.yahoo.com/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] telephone poles Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 16:24:27 -0400 -----Original Message----- From: Geoffrey Van Dooren [mailto:geoff_vandooren@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 3:45 PM To: PRR talk list Subject: [PRR] telephone poles Can someone tell me which color the wires from telephone poles was, on photos it appears to be green. Power Companies and the Railroads tended to use bare copper wire. #4 or #6 were common. This wire oxidized to a green color. Along which lines could you still find many telephone poles in the early 50's? What was the standard: 2, 4 or 5 crossarms? Probably along most active rail lines. In South Jersey lineside poles paralleled most all active PRSL main & branchlines. Crossarms depended on the type of service the lines provided. Closer to terminals and major points the more crossarms for more wires, for more circuits. In rural areas less crossarms for less wires, less circuits. Were they used next to electrified lines? This one I'm not sure. Power company lines often paralleled RR right of ways. Railroad communication/signal lines were probably buried in conduit to minimize interference from the transmission and trolley lines overhead. Hope this is of help. Buzz __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 17:28:57 -0700 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] telephone poles >> Were they used next to electrified >> lines? > This one I'm not sure. Power company lines often paralleled > RR right of ways. Railroad communication/signal lines were > probably buried in conduit to minimize interference from the > transmission and trolley lines overhead. Electrification rework included burying the com and signal lines. Problems with both noise and induction of hazardous voltages. best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 17:13:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: Re: [PRR] telephone poles To all, The poles lining the PRR right of ways were the heart of the inductive "Trainfone" communication system that allowed towers to communicate, along non-electrified lines, with train crews in locomotive or cabin cars equipped with the Pennsy's distinctive inductive loop antenna some called "hand rails" train watchers and modelers unfamiliar with the "Standard Railroad of the World." While a police reporter for The Xenia (Ohio) Daily Gazette during the late 1980s following Comrail's abandonment of the Panhandle Columbus-Dayton mainline between London, Ohio, and Clement tower and yard on the eastern edge of Dayton, Greene County Lawmen arrested a number of enterprising fellows attempting unlit midnight salvage operations to recycle the lines. Thus I became very familiar with it. Each pole supported 24 lead-clad copper lines. Weathered, they appeared like to dark grey. The green of oxidized copper would only appear where the lead casing was stripped from the lines. This would not be seen until the worm (Penn Central's intertwined PC herald) ate the the Keystone (Merger with NYC 1/1/68). These lines were heavy. They were supported four crossbars which carried six lines, three om either side of the pole. Because of the weight of their load this "trademark" sighting cues of a PRR line was carried on what seems to be extremely close set centers, only from 100' to 150' apart, when compared with other utility lines. The Trainfone was a passive system in that no real signals were transmitted. The receivers detected flucuations in the magnetic fields of with the trackside line or train borne Pie pan like inductive senders. The intense fields surrounding electrified lines prevented use along electrified line. Voice signals were on;y part of the data transmitted along this lines. Because apparently were used tom carry some CTC or signaling information, these poles could be seen along ex-PRR lines still in use until at least the late 1980s. You'd most likely find them along those CTC-equipped lines. In western Ohio that meant the PRR's Columbus-Cincinnati, -St. Louis, and -Chicago lines carried the lines while the 142-mile Zanesville branch, the longest unsignalized line east of the Mississippi, the Springfield branch and the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern did not have the poles. Tom V. --- davep wrote: > >> Were they used next to electrified > >> lines? > > > > This one I'm not sure. Power company lines often > paralleled > > RR right of ways. Railroad communication/signal > lines were > > probably buried in conduit to minimize > interference from the > > transmission and trolley lines overhead. > > Electrification rework included burying the com and > signal lines. Problems with both noise and > induction of hazardous voltages. > > best > dwp > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2002 20:23:49 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] Y4 Scale Test Car WAJK4@aol.com wrote: > > Just to let everyone know, I am starting from an undecorated kit, which is why I was inquiring as to what color would be suitable. As for the article, it is from "The Model Railroader", November 193? (the date was cut off in the photo copy) p.418. Directly under the words "Scale Test Car... Pennsylvania RR... ...painted box car red with white lettering." This is what sparked my interest. And if you weren't confused already, an article in "The Keystone" (possibly 1977) states that scale test cars may have been painted "in the old MOW colors, gray with black lettering" but the authors have never seen documentation to support these reports. Anyone else confused yet? > > Walt > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Walt- Correct date for Keystone article is Sept.1977, V.10, #3. Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] telephone poles Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 00:42:45 -0400 Tom, I think you have the primary & secondary uses for the lineside poles reversed. The primary use for the lines was to carry signaling & other electrical information and predated & postdated trainphone. The lines were used in the trainphone system pretty much as an afterthought because they were already there. Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Tom Vondruska Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2002 8:14 PM To: davep@quik.com; Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] telephone poles To all, The poles lining the PRR right of ways were the heart of the inductive "Trainfone" communication system that allowed towers to communicate, along non-electrified lines, with train crews in locomotive or cabin cars equipped with the Pennsy's distinctive inductive loop antenna some called "hand rails" train watchers and modelers unfamiliar with the "Standard Railroad of the World." While a police reporter for The Xenia (Ohio) Daily Gazette during the late 1980s following Comrail's abandonment of the Panhandle Columbus-Dayton mainline between London, Ohio, and Clement tower and yard on the eastern edge of Dayton, Greene County Lawmen arrested a number of enterprising fellows attempting unlit midnight salvage operations to recycle the lines. Thus I became very familiar with it. Each pole supported 24 lead-clad copper lines. Weathered, they appeared like to dark grey. The green of oxidized copper would only appear where the lead casing was stripped from the lines. This would not be seen until the worm (Penn Central's intertwined PC herald) ate the the Keystone (Merger with NYC 1/1/68). These lines were heavy. They were supported four crossbars which carried six lines, three om either side of the pole. Because of the weight of their load this "trademark" sighting cues of a PRR line was carried on what seems to be extremely close set centers, only from 100' to 150' apart, when compared with other utility lines. The Trainfone was a passive system in that no real signals were transmitted. The receivers detected flucuations in the magnetic fields of with the trackside line or train borne Pie pan like inductive senders. The intense fields surrounding electrified lines prevented use along electrified line. Voice signals were on;y part of the data transmitted along this lines. Because apparently were used tom carry some CTC or signaling information, these poles could be seen along ex-PRR lines still in use until at least the late 1980s. You'd most likely find them along those CTC-equipped lines. In western Ohio that meant the PRR's Columbus-Cincinnati, -St. Louis, and -Chicago lines carried the lines while the 142-mile Zanesville branch, the longest unsignalized line east of the Mississippi, the Springfield branch and the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern did not have the poles. Tom V. --- davep wrote: > >> Were they used next to electrified > >> lines? > > > > This one I'm not sure. Power company lines often > paralleled > > RR right of ways. Railroad communication/signal > lines were > > probably buried in conduit to minimize > interference from the > > transmission and trolley lines overhead. > > Electrification rework included burying the com and > signal lines. Problems with both noise and > induction of hazardous voltages. > > best > dwp > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 00:36:34 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Crestline web site updated From: prrq2 List, I have added a new page to the Crestline roundhouse website : "The Photography of Henry C. Burkhart." These are large format photos from the 30's and 40's in and around the roundhouse, showing men at work, the installation of the new 110' turntable, etc. High quality pics! Click on the "Burkhart Photos" link at the bottom of the Home page. Enjoy! -- Bill Ayers Remembering the PRR in Crestline http://crestline.pennsyrr.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 07:30:37 EDT Subject: [PRR] Auswanderings of the N6B + why we can't really count cabin --part1_d.25f0eacf.29fa945d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/25/02 1:13:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Counting cabins, Lines East and Lines West > From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." > Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 09:30:20 -0500 > > Rick said: > > >I'm assuming Lines East went at least through WW2 with the classes of 8 > >wheel woodsheathed cabins they had (N4, NDa, definitely not N6). > > Rick, can you clarify this statement with regard to N6 cabins on lines > East? I had always felt that there was a pretty significant presence of > N6B cabins prior to WWII since the numbers of other classes of 8 wheel wood > cabins was pretty small. In addition, I thought the NDa were confined in > large part to the Chesapeake Division? > > Happy Rails > Bruce > Bruce, if I really knew what I was talking about, I'd have numbers, dates, and real facts to offer. I don't really know when the N6's started to go to Lines East assignments -- my indexed photos don't have enough examples to even suggest this. In fact, I'm in guess-land to assume that this happened after most N6A's were converted to N6B's, or dropped from the roster. I can state that I have yet to see a photo of an N6A on Lines East, but then again I probably can't cite a photo of one on Lines West later than the Thirties. Less than a year ago, those who know (Jack Consoli and Bob Johnson in particular) gave me a brutal education in how hard it is to know much about PRR N6 cabins -- and how easy it is to find your information contradicted by another PRR file or source. I came away convinced that this subject is heavily interspersed with quicksand. That (I inductively conclude) is why so little info on this subject is published in the Keystone. No matter how much we wish we knew about it, the writers-with-integrity whom we trust to do such research have found that it's very hard to document the facts confidently. One caution I've made before -- there are those still out there who think that an "N6B" is a blueprint, in the same sense that, say, all X53 boxcars were probably alike. However, the N6 cars were more like kits. You started with whatever Lines West 4 wheel woodie you had, moved the body onto on a standard steel underframe that was provided, and then made the body longer somehow. And later, if you had run out of bobbers, then you built up a whole new superstructure from available lumber. Adding to the variety, N6 conversion/construction took place at least from 1914 to 1926, and presumably at a large number of sites -- almost anywhere wood cars could be repaired. It's no wonder there were so many body variations -- again, frustrating our desire for order and uniformity. Guess we'll just have to enjoy the chaos -- at least the paint jobs were pretty standardized (did I really say that?). Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_d.25f0eacf.29fa945d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/25/02 1:13:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] Counting cabins, Lines East and Lines West
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 09:30:20 -0500

Rick said:

>I'm assuming Lines East went at least through WW2 with the classes of 8
>wheel woodsheathed cabins they had (N4, NDa, definitely not N6).

Rick, can you clarify this statement with regard to N6 cabins on lines
East?  I had always felt that there was a pretty significant presence of
N6B cabins prior to WWII since the numbers of other classes of 8 wheel wood
cabins was pretty small.  In addition, I thought the NDa were confined in
large part to the Chesapeake Division?

Happy Rails
Bruce


Bruce, if I really knew what I was talking about, I'd have numbers, dates, and real facts to offer.   I don't really know when the N6's started to go to Lines East assignments -- my indexed photos don't have enough examples to even suggest this.  In fact, I'm in guess-land to assume that this happened after most N6A's were converted to N6B's, or dropped from the roster.  I can state that I have yet to see a photo of an N6A on Lines East, but then again I probably can't cite a photo of one on Lines West later than the Thirties.

Less than a year ago, those who know (Jack Consoli and Bob Johnson in particular) gave me a brutal education in how hard it is to know much about PRR N6 cabins -- and how easy it is to find your information contradicted by another PRR file or source.  I came away convinced that this subject is heavily interspersed with quicksand.

That (I inductively conclude) is why so little info on this subject is published in the Keystone.  No matter how much we wish we knew about it, the writers-with-integrity whom we trust to do such research have found that it's very hard to document the facts confidently.

One caution I've made before -- there are those still out there who think that an "N6B" is a blueprint, in the same sense that, say, all X53 boxcars were probably alike.  However, the N6 cars were more like kits.  You started with whatever Lines West 4 wheel woodie you had, moved the body onto on a standard steel underframe that was provided, and then made the body longer somehow.  And later, if you had run out of bobbers, then you built up a whole new superstructure from available lumber. 

Adding to the variety, N6 conversion/construction took place at least from 1914 to 1926, and presumably at a large number of sites -- almost anywhere wood cars could be repaired.  It's no wonder there were so many body variations -- again, frustrating our desire for order and uniformity.

Guess we'll just have to enjoy the chaos -- at least the paint jobs were pretty standardized (did I really say that?).


Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_d.25f0eacf.29fa945d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Colman Gerald Subject: [PRR] Decal Alternatives Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 07:40:24 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1ED1F.890379C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Instead of using decals for stripes and lettering, I was wondering if anyone has tried screen printing or silkscreening. I would like to try this for painting passenger cars in the Fleet-of-Modernism scheme. I have a few of the Challenger cars and would like to know how they achieved the stripes and lettering. The stripes and lettering appears to be painted on and not decaled. Getting the curved stripes would be particularly hard to do with decals. Any references, tips, suggestions, etc would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Jerry Colman ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1ED1F.890379C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Decal Alternatives

Instead of using decals for stripes and lettering, I = was wondering if anyone has tried screen printing or = silkscreening.  I would like to try this for painting passenger = cars in the Fleet-of-Modernism scheme.  I have a few of the = Challenger cars and would like to know how they achieved the stripes = and lettering.  The stripes and lettering appears to be painted on = and not decaled.  Getting the curved stripes would be particularly = hard to do with decals.

Any references, tips, suggestions, etc would be = greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Jerry Colman

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1ED1F.890379C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 08:52:52 -0500 Subject: [PRR] FW: RS: Fw: Shades of the Tex-Mex Express?--revisited From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" There has been a thread on Railspot about a Tex-Mex passenger car seen in South Texas recently. Thought the group might be interested. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- From: Earl Needham To: railspot@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: RS: Fw: Shades of the Tex-Mex Express?--revisited Date: Fri, 26 Apr, 2002, 8:46 At 11:56 PM 4/25/2002 -0500, Dennis Hogan wrote: >Sure sounds like a car I recall on the Tex-Mex Express... >My friend again reports: > >" I WENT BY THE TEX MEX YARD AT 7:00 AM THIS MORNING. CAR WAS STILL AT >WEST END. DEFINITELY A PULLMAN-STANDARD LOUNGE CAR (EX- SEABOARD?). HAD A >ANTENNA RUNNING LONG THE ROOF. If that's what it sounds like, I would suspect this is an ex-PRR car with the old "inductive train phone" system. At least, that's what I THINK it was called. Earl ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Decal Alternatives Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 10:01:45 -0400 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1ED2A.E6500DE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The best way to get the curved stripes on the ends is to buy the FOM decals from Pennsy retail Research. There should be stacks of them at the meeting next week? Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Colman Gerald [mailto:ColmanG@tce.com] Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 8:40 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Decal Alternatives Instead of using decals for stripes and lettering, I was wondering if anyone has tried screen printing or silkscreening. I would like to try this for painting passenger cars in the Fleet-of-Modernism scheme. I have a few of the Challenger cars and would like to know how they achieved the stripes and lettering. The stripes and lettering appears to be painted on and not decaled. Getting the curved stripes would be particularly hard to do with decals. Any references, tips, suggestions, etc would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Jerry Colman ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1ED2A.E6500DE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Decal Alternatives
The best way to get the curved stripes on the ends is to buy the FOM decals from Pennsy retail Research.  There should be stacks of them at the meeting next week?
 
Chris Chany
-----Original Message-----
From: Colman Gerald [mailto:ColmanG@tce.com]
Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 8:40 AM
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Decal Alternatives


Instead of using decals for stripes and lettering, I was wondering if anyone has tried screen printing or silkscreening.  I would like to try this for painting passenger cars in the Fleet-of-Modernism scheme.  I have a few of the Challenger cars and would like to know how they achieved the stripes and lettering.  The stripes and lettering appears to be painted on and not decaled.  Getting the curved stripes would be particularly hard to do with decals.

Any references, tips, suggestions, etc would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Jerry Colman

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1ED2A.E6500DE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Colman Gerald Subject: RE: [PRR] Decal Alternatives Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:13:25 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1ED2C.87E4B060 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I wont be able to make the meeting since I live in Indiana. Is there any contact info on Pennsy Retail Research that I can place an order. Thanks, Jerry -----Original Message----- From: Chany, Christopher [mailto:cpc1@westchestergov.com] Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 9:02 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Decal Alternatives The best way to get the curved stripes on the ends is to buy the FOM decals from Pennsy retail Research. There should be stacks of them at the meeting next week? Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Colman Gerald [mailto:ColmanG@tce.com] Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 8:40 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Decal Alternatives Instead of using decals for stripes and lettering, I was wondering if anyone has tried screen printing or silkscreening. I would like to try this for painting passenger cars in the Fleet-of-Modernism scheme. I have a few of the Challenger cars and would like to know how they achieved the stripes and lettering. The stripes and lettering appears to be painted on and not decaled. Getting the curved stripes would be particularly hard to do with decals. Any references, tips, suggestions, etc would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance, Jerry Colman ------_=_NextPart_001_01C1ED2C.87E4B060 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Decal Alternatives

I= wont be able to make the meeting since I live in Indiana.  Is there any contact info on Pennsy Retail Research = that I can place an order.

<= ![if = !supportEmptyParas]> 

=

T= hanks,

J= erry

<= ![if = !supportEmptyParas]> 

=

<= ![if = !supportEmptyParas]> 

=

-----Original Message-----
From: Chany, Christopher [mailto:cpc1@westchestergov.com]
Sent: Friday, April 26, = 2002 9:02 AM
To: = prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: RE: [PRR] Decal Alternatives

 

The best way to = get the curved stripes on the ends is to buy the FOM decals from Pennsy retail Research.  There should be stacks of them at the meeting next = week?=

 =

Chris = Chany=

-----Original Message-----
From: Colman Gerald [mailto:ColmanG@tce.com]
Sent: Friday, April 26, = 2002 8:40 AM
To: = prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] Decal = Alternatives=

 =

Instead of using decals for = stripes and lettering, I was wondering if anyone has tried screen printing or silkscreening.  I would like to try this for painting passenger = cars in the Fleet-of-Modernism scheme.  I have a few of the Challenger = cars and would like to know how they achieved the stripes and lettering.  = The stripes and lettering appears to be painted on and not decaled.  = Getting the curved stripes would be particularly hard to do with = decals.=

Any references, tips, = suggestions, etc would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in = advance,
Jerry Colman

------_=_NextPart_001_01C1ED2C.87E4B060-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 10:17:33 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: RS: Fw: Shades of the Tex-Mex Express?--revisited Earl, This message got cross posted to PRR List and I am interested. I don't think the antenna is PRR trainfone. AFAIK PRR Trainfone was never put in passenger cars. But many RRs had antennae on lounge cars for ordinary AM radio. Were talking 1940s technology here. The SEABOARD had two classes of postwar streamlined lounge cars, neither of which fit your description. The MOUNTAIN series (RED MOUNTAIN, STONE MOUNTAIN, KENESAW MOUNTAIN) were ACF not PS. Do you know how to tell the difference? Its often not easy. The BEACH series, built in 1955 (MIAMI BEACH, ...) were famous for their glass roofs over the lounge area. If you saw one of these you could help but correctly identify it. Is the car fluted or smooth side? Can you tell from the windows what the room arrangement is? If its fluted, are you sure its not Budd built. Is the roof fluted? What type of trucks is it riding on? Is the vestibule window square or rectangular? Does it HAVE a vestibule! I'd love to help id this car. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Donald E. Harper, Jr" wrote: > There has been a thread on Railspot about a Tex-Mex passenger car seen in > South Texas recently. Thought the group might be interested. > > Don Harper > Texas A&M Marine Lab > 5007 Avenue U > Galveston, TX 77551 > 409/740-4540 > > ---------- > From: Earl Needham > To: railspot@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: RS: Fw: Shades of the Tex-Mex Express?--revisited > Date: Fri, 26 Apr, 2002, 8:46 > > At 11:56 PM 4/25/2002 -0500, Dennis Hogan wrote: > >Sure sounds like a car I recall on the Tex-Mex Express... > >My friend again reports: > > > >" I WENT BY THE TEX MEX YARD AT 7:00 AM THIS MORNING. CAR WAS STILL AT > >WEST END. DEFINITELY A PULLMAN-STANDARD LOUNGE CAR (EX- SEABOARD?). HAD A > >ANTENNA RUNNING LONG THE ROOF. > > If that's what it sounds like, I would suspect this is an ex-PRR > car with the old "inductive train phone" system. At least, that's what I > THINK it was called. > > Earl > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 10:23:08 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Decal Alternatives I have often wondered whether a "full body" decal could be made for this. My original concept was to paint the car light Tuscan first and have all the stripes and the dark Tuscan oval on the decal. With decal paper available for home color printers, it might now be do-able by mere mortal model RRs. However, color printers do a lousy job of metallic gold, so perhaps we should paint the car metallic gold first and do the full body decal with both flavors of Tuscan and the stripes clear! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Colman Gerald wrote: > > > Instead of using decals for stripes and lettering, I was wondering if > anyone has tried screen printing or silkscreening. I would like to > try this for painting passenger cars in the Fleet-of-Modernism > scheme. I have a few of the Challenger cars and would like to know > how they achieved the stripes and lettering. The stripes and > lettering appears to be painted on and not decaled. Getting the > curved stripes would be particularly hard to do with decals. > > Any references, tips, suggestions, etc would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks in advance, > Jerry Colman ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 11:03:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Decal Alternatives In a message dated 4/26/02 9:09:06 AM Central Daylight Time, cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: << The stripes and lettering appears to be painted on and not decaled. Getting the curved stripes would be particularly hard to do with decals. >> The Challenger stripes are oversized. I think the decals are not. This is an area where I forgive Challenger (like they care :-)) as it is pretty hard to see a gold leaf 1/4" stripe in HO scale. Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 11:04:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Decal Alternatives In a message dated 4/26/02 9:09:06 AM Central Daylight Time, cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: << The best way to get the curved stripes on the ends is to buy the FOM decals from Pennsy retail Research. There should be stacks of them at the meeting next week? >> And between annual meetings, for us guys in the flatlands, they are available how? Bob Zoeller Bayside, Wisconsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 12:53:05 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Possible "Lettering Schemes for PRR Cabin Cars" In a message dated 1/31/02 8:43:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bobspf writes: In a message dated 1/31/02 6:36:45 AM Central Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: > Rick: As in December 1973 (Vol 6 No.4) and December 1974 (Vol 7 No 4), both of which are available I believe in reprint form now, I believe? Emphasis in 1973 is on paint schemes and 1974 on lettering diagrams. Doesn't mean there may not be more information or diagrams available today to add, though. I suspect you could do a pretty hefty article just supplementing the above. Bob Zoeller >> Bob (and Morgan, Lew, Tom, et al), Thanks for the encouragement on this projected cabin car article -- it's long been a desire of mine to augment the great articles you mention, but not mine alone. I imagine the original authors, plus several others like Tom Vondruska, have terrific ideas on extensions of this material. I think about this in terms of a "lettering practices" article because 1. Cabin cars fascinate me and apparently everybody else. 2. It's a great opportunity to further extend the Brady McGuire "lettering schemes" work beyond boxcars and covered hoppers. 3. It'd be an excuse to use a lot of great cabin car pictures from several collections. However, Chuck Blardone, editor of the Keystone, is the ultimate arbiter of what articles will be used and who gets to write them. He and I have not yet talked seriously about the next "lettering schemes" article. It's taken "forever" for me to get the first one into shape -- with luck, covered hoppers will appear this summer. If Chuck can face working with me again, we'd have to decide whether the subject will be gons, open hoppers, cabin cars, or something else. And in any case it will be some time in coming, as I also have a new basement model railroad (PRR of course) contending for my attention. Looking forward to seeing all of you at Camp Hill next week... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 12:53:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] Possible "Lettering Schemes for PRR Cabin Cars" --part1_171.cba7ff8.29fadff1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/31/02 8:43:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bobspf writes: In a message dated 1/31/02 6:36:45 AM Central Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: > Rick: As in December 1973 (Vol 6 No.4) and December 1974 (Vol 7 No 4), both of which are available I believe in reprint form now, I believe? Emphasis in 1973 is on paint schemes and 1974 on lettering diagrams. Doesn't mean there may not be more information or diagrams available today to add, though. I suspect you could do a pretty hefty article just supplementing the above. Bob Zoeller >> Bob (and Morgan, Lew, Tom, et al), Thanks for the encouragement on this projected cabin car article -- it's long been a desire of mine to augment the great articles you mention, but not mine alone. I imagine the original authors, plus several others like Tom Vondruska, have terrific ideas on extensions of this material. I think about this in terms of a "lettering practices" article because 1. Cabin cars fascinate me and apparently everybody else. 2. It's a great opportunity to further extend the Brady McGuire "lettering schemes" work beyond boxcars and covered hoppers. 3. It'd be an excuse to use a lot of great cabin car pictures from several collections. However, Chuck Blardone, editor of the Keystone, is the ultimate arbiter of what articles will be used and who gets to write them. He and I have not yet talked seriously about the next "lettering schemes" article. It's taken "forever" for me to get the first one into shape -- with luck, covered hoppers will appear this summer. If Chuck can face working with me again, we'd have to decide whether the subject will be gons, open hoppers, cabin cars, or something else. And in any case it will be some time in coming, as I also have a new basement model railroad (PRR of course) contending for my attention. Looking forward to seeing all of you at Camp Hill next week... Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_171.cba7ff8.29fadff1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/31/02 8:43:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, Bobspf writes:

In a message dated 1/31/02 6:36:45 AM Central Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes:

>

Rick:

As in December 1973 (Vol 6 No.4) and December 1974 (Vol 7 No 4), both of which are available I believe in reprint form now, I believe?  Emphasis in 1973 is on paint schemes and 1974 on lettering diagrams.  Doesn't mean there may not be more information or diagrams available today to add, though.  I suspect you could do a pretty hefty article just supplementing the above.

Bob Zoeller >>

Bob (and Morgan, Lew, Tom, et al),

Thanks for the encouragement on this projected cabin car article -- it's long been a desire of mine to augment the great articles you mention, but not mine alone.  I imagine the original authors, plus several others like Tom Vondruska, have terrific ideas on extensions of this material.

I think about this in terms of a "lettering practices" article because
1. Cabin cars fascinate me and apparently everybody else.
2. It's a great opportunity to further extend the Brady McGuire "lettering schemes" work beyond boxcars and covered hoppers.
3.  It'd be an excuse to use a lot of great cabin car pictures from several collections.

However, Chuck Blardone, editor of the Keystone, is the ultimate arbiter of what articles will be used and who gets to write them.  He and I have not yet talked seriously about the next "lettering schemes" article.  It's taken "forever" for me to get the first one into shape --  with luck, covered hoppers will appear this summer. 

If Chuck can face working with me again, we'd have to decide whether the subject will be gons, open hoppers, cabin cars, or something else.  And in any case it will be some time in coming, as I also have a new basement model railroad (PRR of course) contending for my attention.

Looking forward to seeing all of you at Camp Hill next week...

Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_171.cba7ff8.29fadff1_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 13:24:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Possible "Lettering Schemes for PRR Cabin Rick, I would love to see another updated article on PRR Cabins. One full issue, like the recent T1 subject, covering all classes (at least the major classes, N5 N5b N5c N6a/b and N8) lettering and general info would be great. I am sure there has been more info found since the 1973, 1974 articles in The Keystone. Unfortunately I have no info to share. The info I used when building my G Scale Cabins was obtained from different sources already mentioned, thru photos in books and actual cabins and their owners. Having info contained at one source, preferably a Keystone issue would benefit many. .......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennsyNut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Wanderings of the N6B & why we can't really count cabin Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 12:16:22 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C1ED1C.2D6D75A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi! Just want to jump in with a comment! Wasn't some differences in N6b's = because on Lines West, there was less clearance problem, so the cupola = was full width; and in the East, the cupola was cut down/sides for = clearing the tunnels, etc.? Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! ------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C1ED1C.2D6D75A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi!
 
Just want to jump in with a = comment! =20 Wasn't some differences in N6b's because on Lines West, there was less = clearance=20 problem, so the cupola was full width; and in the East, the cupola was = cut=20 down/sides for clearing the tunnels, etc.?
 
Morgan Bilbo
Ferroequinologist
PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a = true Pennsy=20 Nut!
------=_NextPart_000_0039_01C1ED1C.2D6D75A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 13:34:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Possible "Lettering Schemes for PRR Cabin Cars" From: Jerry Britton On 4/26/02 1:24 PM, Gary Mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote: > I would love to see another updated article on PRR Cabins. One full > issue, like the recent T1 subject, covering all classes (at least the > major classes, N5 N5b N5c N6a/b and N8) lettering and general info would > be great. I am sure there has been more info found since the 1973, 1974 > articles in The Keystone. Unfortunately I have no info to share. The > info I used when building my G Scale Cabins was obtained from different > sources already mentioned, thru photos in books and actual cabins and > their owners. Having info contained at one source, preferably a Keystone > issue would benefit many. .......Gary > This came up about three months ago...perhaps with Greg Martin...my suggestion at the time was, if not for The Keystone, I will be happy to post an extensive web page if someone can put together the data and images. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 10:45:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: Re: [PRR] Counting cabins, Lines East and Lines West To all readers" I'm writing this in a public Library without access to my files. Please verify before blindly accepting my meager memory as gospel. Tom V. Good guesses, Rick. A Summer 1989 Keystone article authored by Dan Cupper, and a person whose name I forget list, includes a list breaking down the number of active N6 cabin cars by subclass in 1927, the last year of the N6 building programme. I believe there were a few less than 1,200 in the N6 class with the breakdown falling roughly 800-900 N6A (Lines West Cupola) and 300-400 Panhandle or slant-sided cupola. An obstruction clearance programme begun in the 1930s eventually rebuilt all but one of the N6a model into the N6b design. That lone exception was sasigned to the Chicago Division on May 15, 1957, the date of the cabin car roster published with Bob Johnston and Gary Roavh's cabin car story in the Dec. 1973 Keystone. Tom V. --- RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/11/02 4:12:28 PM Eastern > Daylight Time, > PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: > > > > I previously > > asked what percentage of cabeese on Lines West > (Ohio circa 1948) > > would have been N6 as opposed to N5, or any other > class. I don't > > remember seeing a response. > > > > > > You didn't receive a response because I don't think > the data is available. > Somewhere on the web is a detailed listing of > caboose assignments circa 1955. > Many hours of work with that listing could develop > some stats by, say, > division or state. Then addition could give an > answer for 1955. Dead nuts > it's the wrong answer for 1948. > > A much quicker methodology is to look at the caboose > numbers. There were > roughly: > 600 N5 and N5B > 200 N5C > 200 N8 > > for 1000 steel caboose numbers. With photos > available of the woodsheathed > N6A and N6B from 980020 up to at least 982402, > there may have been as many > as 2400 N6's. > > Additional facts/guesses/rumors: > 1. the steel cabooses used number series that were > ancestral PRR Lines East > nonrevenue numbers. Fragmentary evidence shows > there were Lines East woodies > from, say 475843 to 476488. That number series may > have been all ND (or > not!). > 2. the N6A and N6B used ancestral Lines West > nonrevenue numbers. After a lot > of study, I have only the most fragmentary evidence > of what number series > were rebuilt as N6's, except that it's pretty > certain the feedstock bobbers' > numbers were in the same vicinity. > 3. as train length grew rapidly between 1910 and > 1930, it's an easy bet that > number of cabins needed went down, on both Lines > East and Lines West. The > first to go were (we assume) the unrebuilt bobbers. > Count of actual cars in > service had to shrink radically from the days of the > 4-wheel woodie to the > 1914 designs (N5 and N6) and on to the post WW2 > world. I'm assuming Lines > East went at least through WW2 with the classes of 8 > wheel woodsheathed > cabins they had (N4, NDa, definitely not N6). By > about 1964, wood cabins > across the whole PRR system were becoming scarce, > and the few left were > virtually all N6b. Last N6b picture I'm aware of > (in service) is in > Philadelphia 1964, but there should have been > survivors around Columbus, > because one of them went to Ohio Railway Museum. > > We can hope further info surfaces in the PRRT&HS > archives at Lewistown. A > brave group of volunteers is trying to make that > collection useful for the > rest of us, particularly us outlanders far away from > the Keystone State. > > Maybe we can talk about these subjects some at Camp > Hill next week. > > > Rick Tipton > Louisville KY > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially > PRR Lines West > Modeling Ohio 1968 > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ndbprr@att.net Subject: [PRR] Attached files Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 18:09:29 +0000 I am getting some posts as attachments and have no idea how to open them. When I double click to open them it asks what program I want to use and I always wonder if they have a virus. How do others open the e mails to PRR-talk that are listed as attachments? Thank ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Decal Alternatives Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:16:21 -0400 Bob, I will see what I can dig up at the meeting as to who will sell through the mail. I believe the Pennsy Retail Research decals were a one shot deal from about 10 years ago. However they did not sell well so there are a lot still around. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com] Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 11:04 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Decal Alternatives In a message dated 4/26/02 9:09:06 AM Central Daylight Time, cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: << The best way to get the curved stripes on the ends is to buy the FOM decals from Pennsy retail Research. There should be stacks of them at the meeting next week? >> And between annual meetings, for us guys in the flatlands, they are available how? Bob Zoeller Bayside, Wisconsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:17:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Attached files From: Jerry Britton On 4/26/02 2:09 PM, ndbprr@att.net (ndbprr@att.net) wrote: > I am getting some posts as attachments and have no idea > how to open them. When I double click to open them it > asks what program I want to use and I always wonder if > they have a virus. How do others open the e mails to > PRR-talk that are listed as attachments? You should not be getting any attachments via the list. If you are, please reference to me (off list) the full subject of the message, who sent it, and the time of the message so that I can research. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Attached files Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:33:06 -0400 Dear ndbprr@att.net Jerry will correct me if I'm wrong. I believe that Jerry has his mail program set so it DOES NOT send attachments. I would be very suspicious of any PRR-Talk messages that come with an attachment. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: ndbprr@att.net [mailto:ndbprr@att.net] Sent: Friday, April 26, 2002 2:09 PM To: Prr-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Attached files I am getting some posts as attachments and have no idea how to open them. When I double click to open them it asks what program I want to use and I always wonder if they have a virus. How do others open the e mails to PRR-talk that are listed as attachments? Thank ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:43:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Attached files From: Jerry Britton On 4/26/02 2:33 PM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > Jerry will correct me if I'm wrong. I believe that Jerry has his mail > program set so it DOES NOT send attachments. I would be very suspicious of > any PRR-Talk messages that come with an attachment. > What confuses matters is the scenario where... * a message goes over the list * an infected system responds to both the list and the sender * the original sender receives the direct response with the attachment Don't assume an attachment came over the list! Also, we installed new filters that now block specific types (e.g. .exe, macros, etc.) attachments but allow HTML/MIME format e-mails (e.g. newer AOL clients) to pass. Your e-mail client, with MIME rendering turned off, could show an "apparent" attachment that is really an HTML version of the e-mail you are viewing in plain text. Enough said "on-list" for now. Thanks. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:00:30 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Attached files From: Roger P Hensley I know that I have seen bounces back to me from alias addresses that I cannot and do not send from. They addresses have been harvested and put on virus messages as if they were send by me. Bottom line. Trust NOTHING in the way of an attachment that you were not expecting. Roger Hensley === Central Indiana Division, MWR, NMRA === === http://cid.railfan.net/ === ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 12:29:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: Re: [PRR] Wanderings of the N6B & why we can't really count cabin --- PennsyNut wrote: > Hi! > > Just want to jump in with a comment! Wasn't some > differences in N6b's because on Lines West, there > was less clearance problem, so the cupola was full > width; and in the East, the cupola was cut > down/sides for clearing the tunnels, etc.? > > Morgan Bilbo > Ferroequinologist > PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! > Morgan, Two variants of the N6 cabin car design were adopted in 1914 by the Pennsylvania Co. for its owned lines which included the Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne & Chicago Ry. Co. and the "P" Co.'s independently operated but wholly-owned subsidiary, the Panhandle Route aka Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis Ry. Co. The "P" Co. and the Panhandle each adopted the N6a design with its spacious tall and wide "Lines West" cupola. The Panhandle purchased a lesser number of the N6b design with its wedge-like "Panhandle" cupola that was 9'4" wide at the base and narrowing to 4'6" at the base of its round roof. This design was first used by the Panhandle in the early 1890s so its cabin cars could negotiate narrow clearances in the 10 tunnels on the Pittsburgh-Columbus mainline between Pittsburgh and Ulrichville, Ohio. After the PRR consolidated its operations in 1920-1923 this stretch of track was known as the Panhandle Division. I am leading the lonely struggle to have the wedge-shaped cupola called the Panhandle Cupola. Tom V. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more http://games.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:49:37 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Wanderings of the N6B & why we can't really count cabin Tom V sez: > I am leading the lonely struggle to have the >wedge-shaped cupola called the Panhandle Cupola. Gee, is this a good time to bring up the "Mae West" terminology debate? Ducking into my corner! Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 15:48:42 -0400 From: Dave Pfeiffer Subject: [PRR] K4 tender drawings Just want to send a general thank you to everyone who contributed information and suggestions on the search for drawings for the tender on 1361. Hopefully, some day we can all enjoy the results of the search. Dave Pfeiffer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 16:11:21 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Decal Alternatives Hey Yuze Gize, Just a quick note... Microscale is working on Decal sheets for Cars painted and lettered in what is commonly called FOM. I got an email from them about a month ago just after I received sample of all the PRR decal sheets they revised and the new sheets. There are more decal sheets to be released for PRR freight cars in the near future 11 in all I believe. Also I received a call from the tool and die man doing the G38/39's and he is nearing completion on the cars and we are compiling paint and lettering schemes for the built up cars and they will be released as kits as well. We should see them this Fall... NO PROMISES! They will rivial the new Athearn Genesis Series/Life Like cars now available. They will do the PRR, PC and CONRAIL versions. Thanks to Mark Kerlick and Mike Bradley for the crawling on the ground and taking the prototype details photos and critical data from Ed Martin. They should be beautiful. In the hopper is a covered Hooper (you guess which one), the X58 and subclasses and then the N8 caboose. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 13:24:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Possible "Lettering Schemes for PRR Cabin Cars" Rick, I would love to see another updated article on PRR Cabins. One full issue, like the recent T1 subject, covering all classes (at least the major classes, N5 N5b N5c N6a/b and N8) lettering and general info would be great. I am sure there has been more info found since the 1973, 1974 articles in The Keystone. Unfortunately I have no info to share. The info I used when building my G Scale Cabins was obtained from different sources already mentioned, thru photos in books and actual cabins and their owners. Having info contained at one source, preferably a Keystone issue would benefit many. .......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 19:55:37 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Auswanderings of the N6B + why we can't really count Hi Rick, I'm modeling an N6a in N scale, and I've been stymied by the lack of N6a photos. The only two I know of are - "Black Gold Black Diamonds Vol1" has a partial view of one - "Cabin Cars of the Pennsylvania and Long Island Railroads" has a good view of one. Do you know of any other views? Thanks - Claus From: RickTipton@aol.com Date sent: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 07:30:37 EDT Subject: [PRR] Auswanderings of the N6B + why we can't really count cabin cars.... To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > In a message dated 4/25/02 1:13:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Counting cabins, Lines East and Lines West > > From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." > > Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2002 09:30:20 -0500 > > > > Rick said: > > > > >I'm assuming Lines East went at least through WW2 with the classes of 8 > > >wheel woodsheathed cabins they had (N4, NDa, definitely not N6). > > > > Rick, can you clarify this statement with regard to N6 cabins on lines > > East? I had always felt that there was a pretty significant presence of > > N6B cabins prior to WWII since the numbers of other classes of 8 wheel wood > > cabins was pretty small. In addition, I thought the NDa were confined in > > large part to the Chesapeake Division? > > > > Happy Rails > > Bruce > > > > Bruce, if I really knew what I was talking about, I'd have numbers, dates, > and real facts to offer. I don't really know when the N6's started to go to > Lines East assignments -- my indexed photos don't have enough examples to > even suggest this. In fact, I'm in guess-land to assume that this happened > after most N6A's were converted to N6B's, or dropped from the roster. I can > state that I have yet to see a photo of an N6A on Lines East, but then again > I probably can't cite a photo of one on Lines West later than the Thirties. > > Less than a year ago, those who know (Jack Consoli and Bob Johnson in > particular) gave me a brutal education in how hard it is to know much about > PRR N6 cabins -- and how easy it is to find your information contradicted by > another PRR file or source. I came away convinced that this subject is > heavily interspersed with quicksand. > > That (I inductively conclude) is why so little info on this subject is > published in the Keystone. No matter how much we wish we knew about it, the > writers-with-integrity whom we trust to do such research have found that it's > very hard to document the facts confidently. > > One caution I've made before -- there are those still out there who think > that an "N6B" is a blueprint, in the same sense that, say, all X53 boxcars > were probably alike. However, the N6 cars were more like kits. You started > with whatever Lines West 4 wheel woodie you had, moved the body onto on a > standard steel underframe that was provided, and then made the body longer > somehow. And later, if you had run out of bobbers, then you built up a whole > new superstructure from available lumber. > > Adding to the variety, N6 conversion/construction took place at least from > 1914 to 1926, and presumably at a large number of sites -- almost anywhere > wood cars could be repaired. It's no wonder there were so many body > variations -- again, frustrating our desire for order and uniformity. > > Guess we'll just have to enjoy the chaos -- at least the paint jobs were > pretty standardized (did I really say that?). > > > Rick Tipton > Louisville KY > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 08:10:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR Schuylkill Division From: Beth Caples My coputer has been down and a few weeks ago someone was wanting info on the Schuylkill Div. in the Reading area. Would that person get ahold of me off list. I would appreciate it. I don't know how much info I have that could be useful but I would like to correspond with someone who is modeling the same general area. Thanks, John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] Life-Like USRA 0-6-0 and BLI Hudson Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 13:36:12 -0400

According to their web site, Life-Like has moved the date for the
0-6-0 to come out to July. They do have pictures of a sample engine on their website. It looks very good. I still wonder if the Pennsy one will get the correct "Pennsy" treatment like DGLE paint.
Has anyone heard any thing about how the sample Hudson from BLI looks in person and how it runs. The pictures look great, but I am a little leery of ordering a M-1b based on just the pictures of the Hudson.
Eric
.
 

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 14:03:00 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Life-Like USRA 0-6-0 and BLI Hudson From: Jerry Britton On 4/27/02 1:36 PM, Eric Lauterbach at (ealauterbach@earthlink.net) wrote: > According to their web site, Life-Like has moved the date for the > 0-6-0 to come out to July. They do have pictures of a sample engine on their > website. It looks very good. I still wonder if the Pennsy one will get the > correct "Pennsy" treatment like DGLE paint. > Has anyone heard any thing about how the sample Hudson from BLI looks in > person and how it runs. The pictures look great, but I am a little leery of > ordering a M-1b based on just the pictures of the Hudson. But with these being limited run, you could miss out if you wait until photos of the M1 are out. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 14:16:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Life-Like USRA 0-6-0 and BLI Hudson In a message dated 4/27/02 1:07:39 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << But with these being limited run, you could miss out if you wait until photos of the M1 are out. >> You could be right because its a Pennsy loco (contrary to the belief of some industry people, Pennsy is a seller). Otherwise almost all the other "limited-run" locos which used that as a selling tool are readily available (Alleghenys are a good example). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: Re: [PRR] Life-Like USRA 0-6-0 and BLI Hudson Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 14:34:12 -0400 I am not waiting on photos of the M-1, but would like to know how the Hudson is to get an idea how the M-1 will be. Eric > [Original Message] > From: Jerry Britton > To: PRR-Talk ; > Date: 4/27/02 2:03:00 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Life-Like USRA 0-6-0 and BLI Hudson > > On 4/27/02 1:36 PM, Eric Lauterbach at (ealauterbach@earthlink.net) wrote: > > > According to their web site, Life-Like has moved the date for the > > 0-6-0 to come out to July. They do have pictures of a sample engine on their > > website. It looks very good. I still wonder if the Pennsy one will get the > > correct "Pennsy" treatment like DGLE paint. > > Has anyone heard any thing about how the sample Hudson from BLI looks in > > person and how it runs. The pictures look great, but I am a little leery of > > ordering a M-1b based on just the pictures of the Hudson. > > But with these being limited run, you could miss out if you wait until > photos of the M1 are out. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --- Eric Lauterbach --- ealauterbach@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 11:57:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: [PRR] On asexual nicknames for N6 cupolas --- "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: > Tom V sez: > > I am leading the lonely struggle to have the > >wedge-shaped cupola called the Panhandle Cupola. To which Bruce flippiantly replies: > Gee, is this a good time to bring up the "Mae West" > terminology debate? > Hoping to forestall a flame war, Tom V. replies authoritatively: No Bruce, it would just muddy the waters because it is too archaic and non-specific. I've checked three authorities and found three significantly different definitions to the slang use of "Mae Weat." The Dictionary of American slang I have at home agrees with you. It lists Mae West as a 1940s Slang modifier denoting its Object, i.e. the N6 cupola, is of a noticably larger than normal size, which could apply to either the N6a "Lines West" or N6b "Panhandle" cupolas. The American Heritage Dictionary lists Mae West only as a nickname to s WWII inflatable flotation vest thar "resembled her curvaeous body" without any biographical information indentifyimg Mae West. The Casells Dictionary of Slang lists Mae West as a descriptive alluding to an object;s resemblance to the human female breast. No need to duck for cover. Just accept my irrefutable logic, Bruce. Tom V. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 02:22:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] N6a pix scarce as hen's teeth... --part1_1ab.1786715.29fcef33_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/27/02 1:11:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Auswanderings of the N6B + why we can't really count > cabin cars.... > From: "Claus Schlund" > Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 19:55:37 -0700 > > Hi Rick, > > I'm modeling an N6a in N scale, and I've been stymied by the lack > of N6a photos. The only two I know of are > > - "Black Gold Black Diamonds Vol1" has a partial view of one > > - "Cabin Cars of the Pennsylvania and Long Island Railroads" has a good > view of one. > > Do you know of any other views? > > Thanks - Claus > > > Wow - this gets ugly fast. I'd missed the one in Black Gold, and have the cabin cars book open to #981131, marked for the Fort Wayne Div and credited to Walt Keely's collection. Memory tells me there's a shot in John Hauck's book "Narrow Gauge in Ohio" (the CL&N was standard-gauged in 1894 and then joined the Pennsy family in 1896). Other than these, my indexed references to the N6a are text. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1ab.1786715.29fcef33_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/27/02 1:11:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] Auswanderings of the N6B + why we can't really count cabin cars....
From: "Claus Schlund" <schlund@cwnet.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 19:55:37 -0700

Hi Rick,

I'm modeling an N6a in N scale, and I've been stymied by the lack
of N6a photos. The only two I know of are

- "Black Gold Black Diamonds Vol1" has a partial view of one

- "Cabin Cars of the Pennsylvania and Long Island Railroads" has a good
view of one.

Do you know of any other views?

Thanks - Claus




Wow - this gets ugly fast.  I'd missed the one in Black Gold, and have the cabin cars book open to #981131, marked for the Fort Wayne Div and credited to Walt Keely's collection.

Memory tells me there's a shot in John Hauck's book "Narrow Gauge in Ohio" (the CL&N was standard-gauged in 1894 and then joined the Pennsy family in 1896).  Other than these, my indexed references to the N6a are text.
Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1ab.1786715.29fcef33_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 02:22:50 EDT Subject: [PRR] Narrow-cupola N6 not for Lines East --part1_1a3.1707a20.29fcef3a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/26/02 11:01:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Hi! > > Just want to jump in with a comment! Wasn't some differences in N6b's = > because on Lines West, there was less clearance problem, so the cupola = > was full width; and in the East, the cupola was cut down/sides for = > clearing the tunnels, etc.? > > Morgan Bilbo > Ferroequinologist > PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! > > Not exactly. The full-width cupola (thus N6a) is thought to have been intended for the wide open spaces of Ohio and Indiana. However, the narrow cupola (N6b) was first applied to the Panhandle Division's rebuilds, because of the 10 tunnels between Pittsburgh Union Station and Jewett, OH. Presumably, the narrow/high cupola was later applied to other divisions' N6a's (making them N6b's) so cabin cars could "go anywhere" on Lines West. We're assuming (without much proof) that: 1. Conversion of N6a to N6b was mostly before WW2. 2. Most unconverted N6a's were taken out of service before WW2. 3. Sometime, N6b's began to move onto Lines East for local service, presumably balancing the steel cabins which moved onto Lines West for through service. An ironic note is that, long after "all" the N6a's were converted because of the Panhandle Division's tunnels, the PRR invested in enlarging or daylighting these tunnels (late 50's?). This was just part of the effort, continuing to and past the merger, to make the Pittsburgh - St. Louis route safe for larger cars (ultimately high cubes, auto racks, and pigs). Disclaimer -- the above is offered as a rational explanation of observed facts. Much of it is not factual information -- more as a reasonable guess -- because the facts evade us. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1a3.1707a20.29fcef3a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/26/02 11:01:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Hi!

Just want to jump in with a comment!  Wasn't some differences in N6b's =
because on Lines West, there was less clearance problem, so the cupola =
was full width; and in the East, the cupola was cut down/sides for =
clearing the tunnels, etc.?

Morgan Bilbo
Ferroequinologist
PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut!



Not exactly.  The full-width cupola (thus N6a) is thought to have been intended for the wide open spaces of Ohio and Indiana.  However, the narrow cupola (N6b) was first applied to the Panhandle Division's rebuilds, because of the 10 tunnels between Pittsburgh Union Station and Jewett, OH.

Presumably, the narrow/high cupola was later applied to other divisions' N6a's (making them N6b's) so cabin cars could "go anywhere" on Lines West.

We're assuming (without much proof) that:
1. Conversion of N6a to N6b was mostly before WW2.
2. Most unconverted N6a's were taken out of service before WW2.
3. Sometime, N6b's began to move onto Lines East for local service, presumably balancing the steel cabins which moved onto Lines West for through service.

An ironic note is that, long after "all" the N6a's were converted because of the Panhandle Division's tunnels, the PRR invested in enlarging or daylighting these tunnels (late 50's?).  This was just part of the effort, continuing to and past the merger, to make the Pittsburgh - St. Louis route safe for larger cars (ultimately high cubes, auto racks, and pigs).

Disclaimer -- the above is offered as a rational explanation of observed facts.  Much of it is not factual information -- more as a reasonable guess -- because the facts evade us.


Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_1a3.1707a20.29fcef3a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 02:22:52 EDT Subject: [PRR] Naming cupolas on N6's --part1_186.72eaaa4.29fcef3c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/26/02 11:01:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Wanderings of the N6B & why we can't really count cabin > cars.... > From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." > Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:49:37 -0500 > > Tom V sez: > > I am leading the lonely struggle to have the > >wedge-shaped cupola called the Panhandle Cupola. > > Gee, is this a good time to bring up the "Mae West" terminology debate? < > VBG> > > Ducking into my corner! > Bruce > OK - at various times, I have caught people referring to EITHER of the cupolas as a "Mae West" cupola. I've long since concluded that if this was once part of local PRR slang (on Lines West?), it's been corrupted into meaninglessness. Thus I've opted to ignore the whole thing. I'll admit, it's interesting that the movie star and the two cupola designs came along about the same time (Hollywood pre-talkies?). Added to this is the absence of the slightest evidence of PRR "official" practice in this regard (see, I'm fishing, just daring any of the experts to divulge something to the contrary). I can see why Tom Vondruska would like to refer to the N6b cupola as the Panhandle cupola - pretty well captures its beginnings, and is unambiguous. However, the N6a cupola needs a name like "Fort Wayne" cupola. We can't call it the "Lines West" cupola because both cupolas originated on Lines West. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_186.72eaaa4.29fcef3c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/26/02 11:01:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] Wanderings of the N6B & why we can't really count cabin  cars....
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." <smithbf@mail.auburn.edu>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 14:49:37 -0500

Tom V sez:
>    I am leading the lonely struggle to have the
>wedge-shaped cupola called the Panhandle Cupola.

Gee, is this a good time to bring up the "Mae West" terminology debate? <VBG>

Ducking into my corner!
Bruce


OK - at various times, I have caught people referring to EITHER of the cupolas as a "Mae West" cupola.  I've long since concluded that if this was once part of local PRR slang (on Lines West?), it's been corrupted into meaninglessness.  Thus I've opted to ignore the whole thing.  I'll admit, it's interesting that the movie star and the two cupola designs came along about the same time (Hollywood pre-talkies?).

Added to this is the absence of the slightest evidence of PRR "official" practice in this regard (see, I'm fishing, just daring any of the experts to divulge something to the contrary).

I can see why Tom Vondruska would like to refer to the N6b cupola as the Panhandle cupola - pretty well captures its beginnings, and is unambiguous.  However, the N6a cupola needs a name like "Fort Wayne" cupola.  We can't call it the "Lines West" cupola because both cupolas originated on Lines West.


Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_186.72eaaa4.29fcef3c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 13:10:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: Re: [PRR] N6a pix scarce as hen's teeth... --- RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > ... Memory tells me there's a shot in John > Hauck's book "Narrow Gauge in Ohio" (the CL&N was > standard- gauged in 1894 and then joined the Pennsy > family in 1896). Other than these, my indexed > references to> the N6a are text. > > Rick Tipton > Louisville KY > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially > PRR Lines West > Indeed there is a shot of an N6a in John Hauck's Narrow Gauge in Ohio. It's on page 219 or 239. What makes this shot even juicer is that in 1939 it is still equipped with original arch bar trucks and possibly k brakes, meaning it would be "as built." It is in the second lettering scheme for N6s, the one applied after the renumbering which followed the elimination of the PRR Lines West corporate structure. I am at the library so I don't have access to it. I do remember its a 1939 photograph and the cabin is marked as one assigned to the Cincinnati, Lebanon & Northern. I've got an HO Ambroid/Quality Craft/GloorCraft N6a kit just waiting to become this crummy. Tom V. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness http://health.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 16:23:02 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] N6a pix scarce as hen's teeth... Hi Rick, > > > > > Hi Rick, > > > > I'm modeling an N6a in N scale, and I've been stymied by the lack > > of N6a photos. The only two I know of are > > > > - "Black Gold Black Diamonds Vol1" has a partial view of one > > > > - "Cabin Cars of the Pennsylvania and Long Island Railroads" has a good > > view of one. > > > > Do you know of any other views? > > > > Thanks - Claus > > > > > > > > Wow - this gets ugly fast. I'd missed the one in Black Gold See Black Gold Black Diamonds pg 31 - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 20:46:04 -0400 From: "Richard Poole" Subject: [PRR] CONRAIL SD-45's What ever happened to the Ex-Erie-Lackawanna SD-45's with the over-sized fuel tanks. ConRail numbered them 6660-6666? Are they still in service? Where? CSX #'s? NS #'s? -- DICK POOLE -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 20:58:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] CONRAIL SD-45's Dick, Weren't these classed SDP-45? Maybe not. Anyway, I have the numbers boards from 6664. I chose those boards when they became avalable after the NS renumbering because that loco was a mainstay on the Curve as a helper unit for years. I assume the 6660's are still in service but I have no idea where.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 22:03:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] CONRAIL SD-45's If your talking about the ex-Erie Lackawanna units that were in helper service between Altoona and Cresson, They are no longer on the Curve. I got a picture of one here in Philly. I've seen two here. Those units are SD45-2s, big difference from SD45s. The SD45-2s don't have V-shaped radiators. All of Erie Lackawanna's SD45s,SDP45s, and SD45-2s were in Altoona right after the Conrail merger. Hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Michael DiMaio" Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 22:17:57 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Bridges in the PRR centraal division On the mnainline between Gallitizin and harrisburg, what type of bridge s served the PRR? Were they standard or or all different? Is there any standrad list of what was used where? I have finished laying track in the central division in MS train simulator and need to know the type of bridges I have to use. mike dimaio ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:27:29 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT: Virus Notice From Listmaster From: Jerry Britton The lists of DSOP.COM are NOT spreading viruses! Please do not respond to this on-list. Because I am getting a lot of inquiries about folks receiving messages containing viruses that "appear" to be from the list, I thought it best to address everyone on the matter. There is a new virus variant, called "Klez.H" making its rounds. It is dangerous only to Windows users, and only spreadable by Windows users. You can read more about it at: http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.klez.h@mm.html Here's why people think it comes from the list: Once on an infected system, the virus sends e-mails containing attachments to addresses contained in the address book on the infected system. The resulting e-mail "appears" to be "from" the selected address and will have one of 100 or so randomly selected subject lines. Translation: A list subscriber has the infection! I urge all subscribers who are Windows users to visit the above URL and download the removal tool. Use it to check your system for infection. I have double checked (triple checked) that the attachment filters are still preventing such propagation via the lists. Thank you for your interest and concern. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 08:31:52 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Re: On asexual nicknames for N6 cupolas >To which Bruce flippiantly replies: > >> Gee, is this a good time to bring up the "Mae West" >> terminology debate? >> > Hoping to forestall a flame war, Tom V. replies >authoritatively: > The Dictionary of American slang I have at home >agrees with you. It lists Mae West as a 1940s Slang >modifier denoting its Object, i.e. the N6 cupola, is >of a noticably larger than normal size, which could >apply to either the N6a "Lines West" or N6b >"Panhandle" cupolas. > > The American Heritage Dictionary lists Mae West >only as a nickname to s WWII inflatable flotation vest >thar "resembled her curvaeous body" without any >biographical information indentifyimg Mae West. > > The Casells Dictionary of Slang lists Mae West as >a descriptive alluding to an object;s resemblance to >the human female breast. Those of you who have departed a perfectly good airplane (or perhaps a not so good airplane) while it was NOT on the ground, will know that another "Mae West" slang term refers to a particular "partial" parachute malfunction that results from a shroud looping over the body of the cute and dividing it into two parts. In all seriousness, the reason I grinned when bringing the term up is that I have found that it appears quite frequently in many books on the PRR...it seems to be one of those terms like "Brunswick Green" where the etymology is obscure. I agree with you Tom...we need an appropriate, CLEAR term for the cupola styles...of course I take the easy (and circular) way out and call it an "N6A style" or "N6B style" cupola . As to the subject line...I beleive that far from being asexual, cabin cars are like ships and are feminine in gender ;^) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 11:31:02 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention Tidbits From: Jerry Britton Things change quickly, but the current forecast for here in PRRT&HS convention country is as follows: Thursday Morning rain, high of 74 Friday Partly cloudy, high of 65 Saturday Partly cloudy, high of 70 Sunday Partly cloudy, high of 75 Hope the forecast holds as is; we've had a lot of rain lately, which is good, but tornados last evening. For those who haven't been to this convention site before, there are restaurants in the hotel. There is also a McDonald's and a Taco Bell directly across the street. A short walk is to the Ground Round, which is a burger, steak, etc., kind of place. Much more if you are willing to drive. Railfanning-wise, just a few minutes from Enola Yards or the passenger station in Harrisburg. The Rockville Bridge is about 20 minutes away. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Bell Info Needed! Lists, I am in the preliminary stages of research on this subject but thought someone here would know the answers quicker than I can find out by reading. I will get to the Keystone article on Bells shortly. That might have the answers I just arrived home with a new toy, Another PRR Bell. I learned of its availablity Saturday and went to check on it today. Yep, sure enough, it is a PRR Steam Locomotve Bell. This one, has the same measurments and shape as my K4s Bell. This one however is Cast Steel. Which means is was made during World War 2 due to the Brass going to the War Effort. As far as I know the T1's J1's and Q's were built during this period. Thus the Bell would have to be from one of these classes. Narrowing it down a bit further, I assume the T1 and Q2 Bells were Brass. I know for sure the J1 Bells were made of Steel. Not Cast Steel but rolled Steel. Am I assuming all of this correctly? If so I now own a J1 Bell. No AMS (Altoona Machine Shop) or JN (?) initials or no loco numbers stamped into this one like my K4 Bell. If anyone can share more please do so. If not I will ask the Big boys at the PRR Convention later this week. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:18:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bell Info Needed! From: Jerry Britton On 4/29/02 1:10 PM, Gary Mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote: > Am I assuming all of this correctly? If so I now own a > J1 Bell. Nice score!!! Now all we gotta do is figure out how to clone a J1 from its bell! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 14:45:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Bell Info Needed! List, Here is a quick digital pic of the Bell. http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/jbell.JPG ...........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 15:07:31 -0400 From: Al Buchan Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR MOW Equipment Jerry said "If someone could put one together, I'll host it..." If you host it and people send in photos I'll help with the captions. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TAMRnyMets@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 15:11:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] CONRAIL SD-45's hey The NS (ex CR,, ex EL) SD45-2s are currently assigned to Conrail Central/Northern New Jersey operations. They are numbered from 1700 to 1705. i believe the CSX ones are in the 896X?? series,,but all of them are also assigned to Conrail service. Andrew Matarazzo ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 15:15:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR MOW Equipment From: Jerry Britton On 4/29/02 3:07 PM, Al Buchan (abbuchan1@comcast.net) wrote: > Jerry said "If someone could put one together, I'll host it..." > > > If you host it and people send in photos I'll help with the captions. > Sounds like a deal! Thanks, Al. All right...who has MoW photos? I have a few that I'll get together for Al to ID. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 14:46:17 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS meeting & models Okay gang, This is my last reminder. Many of you on this list are heading to the PRRT&HS annual meeting later this week. I want to encourage EVERY modeler to bring at least one model for display. Don't worry about being good enough. Don't worry about it being done. Don't worry, just bring us some PRR models!!! This is a chance for us to show that modelers are a serious component of the PRRT&HS. We've got some very interesting models coming already, in a wide assortment of scales, so come and be a part of the model room! See you there! Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 19:15:35 EDT Subject: [PRR] SD45-2 (vs. T-1) --part1_23.1d747854.29ff2e17_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/29/02 1:11:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] CONRAIL SD-45's > From: "Gary Mittner" > Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 20:58:22 -0400 (EDT) > > Dick, > > Weren't these classed SDP-45? Maybe not. Anyway, I have the numbers > boards from 6664. I chose those boards when they became avalable after > the NS renumbering because that loco was a mainstay on the Curve as a > helper unit for years. I assume the 6660's are still in service but I > have no idea where.....Gary > Bob Reid's "Conrail Power 1" lists these as SD45-2. I remember chasing 6660 south on the Louisville Branch at about 60 mph in 1976 -- seemingly just weeks before the whole thing deteriorated into a 10 mph railroad. These Dash Two's were L-O-N-G, but the absence of angled radiators really made them exotic (as EMD power goes, anyway). Of course, the T-1's are known to have done 120 mph on the same track, when they were new -- they were also exotically long and stylish. Significant to me is that, neglected, it took the Indy-Louisville track 30 years to decline to junk status. BTW, it's still the same jointed rail today, even though we have a daily Amtrak now. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_23.1d747854.29ff2e17_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/29/02 1:11:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] CONRAIL SD-45's
From: "Gary Mittner" <mittner@webtv.net>
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 20:58:22 -0400 (EDT)

Dick,

   Weren't these classed SDP-45? Maybe not. Anyway, I have the numbers
boards from 6664. I chose those boards when they became avalable after
the NS renumbering because that loco was a mainstay on the Curve as a
helper unit for years. I assume the 6660's are still in service but I
have no idea where.....Gary


Bob Reid's "Conrail Power 1" lists these as SD45-2.  I remember chasing 6660 south on the Louisville Branch at about 60 mph in 1976 -- seemingly just weeks before the whole thing deteriorated into a 10 mph railroad.  These Dash Two's were L-O-N-G, but the absence of angled radiators really made them exotic (as EMD power goes, anyway).

Of course, the T-1's are known to have done 120 mph on the same track, when they were new -- they were also exotically long and stylish.  Significant to me is that, neglected, it took the Indy-Louisville track 30 years to decline to junk status.  BTW, it's still the same jointed rail today, even though we have a daily Amtrak now.


Rick Tipton
Louisville KY
Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West --part1_23.1d747854.29ff2e17_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 14:45:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Bell Info Needed! List, Here is a quick digital pic of the Bell. http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/jbell.JPG ...........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 19:21:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR LEMO Interlocking Are all the tracks at Lemo interlocking torn up? I have'nt been there in years. I was thinking about going there this weekend during the convention. I'm guessing that the leads the CV bridge are gone too. Last time I was at LEMO, I took a picture of 4800 (Old Rivets) in Penn Central dress out on the CV Bridge. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 13:10:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Bell Info Needed! Lists, I am in the preliminary stages of research on this subject but thought someone here would know the answers quicker than I can find out by reading. I will get to the Keystone article on Bells shortly. That might have the answers I just arrived home with a new toy, Another PRR Bell. I learned of its availablity Saturday and went to check on it today. Yep, sure enough, it is a PRR Steam Locomotve Bell. This one, has the same measurments and shape as my K4s Bell. This one however is Cast Steel. Which means is was made during World War 2 due to the Brass going to the War Effort. As far as I know the T1's J1's and Q's were built during this period. Thus the Bell would have to be from one of these classes. Narrowing it down a bit further, I assume the T1 and Q2 Bells were Brass. I know for sure the J1 Bells were made of Steel. Not Cast Steel but rolled Steel. Am I assuming all of this correctly? If so I now own a J1 Bell. No AMS (Altoona Machine Shop) or JN (?) initials or no loco numbers stamped into this one like my K4 Bell. If anyone can share more please do so. If not I will ask the Big boys at the PRR Convention later this week. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 20:55:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR LEMO Interlocking From: Jerry Britton On 4/29/02 7:21 PM, zootowerprr@webtv.net at (zootowerprr@webtv.net) wrote: > Are all the tracks at Lemo interlocking torn up? I have'nt > been there in years. I was thinking about going there this weekend > during the convention. I'm guessing that the leads the CV bridge are > gone too. > Last time I was at LEMO, I took a picture of 4800 (Old > Rivets) in Penn Central dress out on the CV Bridge. > Let's see... The twin tracks of the Northern Central through the interlocking are gone, as are the two tracks of the Cumberland Valley through the interlocking. The wye track from the NC onto the bridge is gone, as is the wye track from the CV to the NC to the south. Okay, maybe I should have just said that all is left is one track from the CV turning west into Enola. Hummpff! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 19:18:52 -0400 From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR LEMO Interlocking On Mon, Apr 29, 2002 at 08:55:40PM -0400, Jerry Britton wrote: > On 4/29/02 7:21 PM, zootowerprr@webtv.net at (zootowerprr@webtv.net) wrote: > > > Are all the tracks at Lemo interlocking torn up? I have'nt > > been there in years. I was thinking about going there this weekend > > during the convention. I'm guessing that the leads the CV bridge are > > gone too. > > Last time I was at LEMO, I took a picture of 4800 (Old > > Rivets) in Penn Central dress out on the CV Bridge. > > > Let's see... > > The twin tracks of the Northern Central through the interlocking are gone, > as are the two tracks of the Cumberland Valley through the interlocking. The > wye track from the NC onto the bridge is gone, as is the wye track from the > CV to the NC to the south. > > Okay, maybe I should have just said that all is left is one track from the > CV turning west into Enola. Hummpff! OK, so you're verbose. One could have worse faults! :-)) Not technically LEMO, but in the very immediate area, one could mention too that the 2 tracks of the A&S are still in. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 22:16:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR LEMO Interlocking Old Rivets at LEMO! Seems like only yesterday. I wish I had a better camera back then. It seemed like those old motors would never stop running. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 06:31:05 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Here Is "The Announcement"... From: Jerry Britton About a week and a half ago I teased the list with talk of a "new item" to make its appearance at the PRRT&HS convention this week. Last evening I received the confirming telephone call, so here goes... Broadway Limited Imports is sending me their "proof" (pre-release) unit of their first locomotive project, the NYC J1e Hudson, which is due to ship next month. A lot of folks interested in what BLI has to offer for the PRR are holding their collective breath to see how the J1e looks and how it pulls. The convention will be your chance. The unit will be on display in the vendor room at the Merchandise Service table (under the PENNSYRR.COM) sign. I try to keep most of my Merchandise Service marketing info on the Merchandise Announce list, but this is an opportunity for all to see a truly exciting new product line...regardless of who you prefer to purchase from, please stop by and take a look! Is it over when the vendor room doors make their final close on Saturday? Heck no!!! I've arranged for this baby to run live on two of the layout open houses on the tour on Sunday. The first appearance will be on Bob Martin's layout in Emigsville at about 12:15 p.m. The unit will be available for running for about 30 minutes. The second appearance will be on Jeff Warner's layout in Etters at about 1:15 p.m. Again, the unit will be available for about 30 minutes. Jeff's layout includes a 1.7% grade and he has available quite a string of cars to see what this puppy can do! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 07:53:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Here Is "The Announcement"... Jerry, Is there a possibily of having a 3' piece of test track at the convention? Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 08:21:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Here Is "The Announcement"... From: Jerry Britton On 4/30/02 7:53 AM, Gary Mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote: > Is there a possibily of having a 3' piece of test track at the > convention? Thanks, Gary > The unit will be on a 5' length of track which will be connected to a Digitrax Radio-Equipped Chief II system. It is important to note that these locomotives are designed to work -- out of the box -- with either DC or DCC, including control of the sound! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 08:22:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Here Is The Announcement From: Jerry Britton On 4/30/02 7:53 AM, Gary Mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote: > Is there a possibily of having a 3' piece of test track at the > convention? Thanks, Gary > The unit will be on a 5' length of track which will be connected to a Digitrax Radio-Equipped Chief II system. It is important to note that these locomotives are designed to work -- out of the box -- with either DC or DCC, including control of the sound! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 08:22:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Here Is "The Announcement"... From: Jerry Britton On 4/30/02 7:53 AM, Gary Mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote: > Is there a possibily of having a 3' piece of test track at the > convention? Thanks, Gary > The unit will be on a 5' length of track which will be connected to a Digitrax Radio-Equipped Chief II system. It is important to note that these locomotives are designed to work -- out of the box -- with either DC or DCC, including control of the sound! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: [PRR] PRR Locomotive Speeds Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 09:47:24 -0400 Seeing the post that mentioned the T-1 regularly hitting 120 mph on a particular stretch of track raises a question: Does anyone know the approximate max speeds (in regular operation - not a one time speed record) for PRR freight and passenger steam locomotives? I believe the K-4's topped out around 97, the I-1's around 50 (albeit a very rough ride). How about the M-1, G-5, E-6, L-1, H-9 or 10, Q-2, etc? I realize these will be approimate and contain much folklore and urban legend, but best guesses will at least help. Bill Bigler Modeling Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] (PRR) Proto 1000 F3A units Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 09:52:59 -0400 Group, Is there any articles out there that compare these to the prototype? If not what are your feelings on how they measure up. Thanks in advance. Sam Vastano McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. PH 724-368-8040 X243 Fax 724-368-9677 _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 10:08:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Locomotive Speeds --part1_35.26022b7a.29ffff60_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/30/2002 7:52:16 AM Mountain Daylight Time, wbigler@stny.rr.com writes: > After the turn-of-the-century and before WWI, an E-5 made a run and was timed at 112.6 mph. An old boy in Shillington, Pa. that made 3/4" and 1-1/2" scale live steamers had a post card showing the loco and a description of the run on the back hanging on his shop wall. The run was timed in either Indiana or Ohio on the Mainline. Evan Leisey --part1_35.26022b7a.29ffff60_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 4/30/2002 7:52:16 AM Mountain Daylight Time, wbigler@stny.rr.com writes:


PRR-Talk@dsop.com

After the turn-of-the-century and before WWI,   an E-5 made a run and was timed at 112.6 mph.  An old boy in Shillington, Pa. that made 3/4" and 1-1/2" scale live steamers had a post card showing the loco and a description of the run on the back hanging on his shop wall.  The run was timed in either Indiana or Ohio on the Mainline.

Evan Leisey
--part1_35.26022b7a.29ffff60_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 10:11:39 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Locomotive Speeds Isn't that info, for any given stretch of track, provided in the Employee Time Table? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== William Bigler wrote: > Seeing the post that mentioned the T-1 regularly hitting 120 mph on a > particular stretch of track raises a question: > > Does anyone know the approximate max speeds (in regular operation - not a > one time speed record) for PRR freight and passenger steam locomotives? > > I believe the K-4's topped out around 97, the I-1's around 50 (albeit a very > rough ride). How about the M-1, G-5, E-6, L-1, H-9 or 10, Q-2, etc? I > realize these will be approimate and contain much folklore and urban legend, > but best guesses will at least help. > > Bill Bigler > Modeling Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: broadway@pa.net Subject: [PRR] Re: Lemo Interlocking Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 13:15:10 GMT Hi Guys: For those who've not been in years: All that is PRESENTLY remaining on the interlocking is the lead from STELL for the Shippensburg Secondary to what's left of Shiremanstown Yard. Nazi Southern is putting in improvements to the grade crossings and plans to revamp the trackage to Carlisle for 30mph running to improve service and I speculate to get things in place for the transit service that is planned from Harrisburg to use the CV bridge (already purchased for the Corridor One work). I'm not sure if Corredor One plans to use existing trackage (a dispatching nightmare) or re-lay the parallel trackage for the Shipp Secondary? Only time will tell. Either I've been of help or opened a hornets nest for the new thread. ß^Þ ....Broadway Ltd --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using PAdotNET WebMail. http://www.pa.net/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Locomotive Speeds Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 10:18:30 -0400 I believe the ETT's only listed speed limits or speed restrictions, but if running late they often exceeded those! Bill Bigler Modeling Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" To: "William Bigler" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 10:11 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Locomotive Speeds > Isn't that info, for any given stretch of track, provided in the Employee Time > Table? > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > William Bigler wrote: > > > Seeing the post that mentioned the T-1 regularly hitting 120 mph on a > > particular stretch of track raises a question: > > > > Does anyone know the approximate max speeds (in regular operation - not a > > one time speed record) for PRR freight and passenger steam locomotives? > > > > I believe the K-4's topped out around 97, the I-1's around 50 (albeit a very > > rough ride). How about the M-1, G-5, E-6, L-1, H-9 or 10, Q-2, etc? I > > realize these will be approimate and contain much folklore and urban legend, > > but best guesses will at least help. > > > > Bill Bigler > > Modeling Renovo & > > Williamsport WWII > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > -- > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRR5499@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Locomotive Speeds Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 14:39:47 +0000 Bill, I have a buddy that has been in M-1s at 80+ and he said "it was hard to stand". "Coming around a curve at this speed and down a slight grade with brakes applied it looked like the forth of july" Ed Case > Seeing the post that mentioned the T-1 regularly hitting 120 mph on a > particular stretch of track raises a question: > > Does anyone know the approximate max speeds (in regular operation - not a > one time speed record) for PRR freight and passenger steam locomotives? > > I believe the K-4's topped out around 97, the I-1's around 50 (albeit a very > rough ride). How about the M-1, G-5, E-6, L-1, H-9 or 10, Q-2, etc? I > realize these will be approimate and contain much folklore and urban legend, > but best guesses will at least help. > > Bill Bigler > Modeling Renovo & > Williamsport WWII > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 10:49:11 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Lemo Interlocking From: Jerry Britton On 4/30/02 9:15 AM, broadway@pa.net (broadway@pa.net) wrote: > Hi Guys: For those who've not been in years: All that is PRESENTLY remaining > on > the interlocking is the lead from STELL for the Shippensburg Secondary to > what's left of Shiremanstown Yard. Nazi Southern is putting in improvements to > the grade crossings and plans to revamp the trackage to Carlisle for 30mph > running to improve service and I speculate to get things in place for the > transit service that is planned from Harrisburg to use the CV bridge (already > purchased for the Corridor One work). I'm not sure if Corredor One plans to > use > existing trackage (a dispatching nightmare) or re-lay the parallel trackage > for > the Shipp Secondary? Only time will tell. Either I've been of help or opened a > hornets nest for the new thread. ß^Þ ....Broadway Ltd >From LEMO to at least Mechanicsburg, there is plenty of room to lay new track, which would indeed reduce dispatching concerns and, I bet, liability. However, at some point (perhaps not until Mechanicsburg), there are turnouts to spurs on the south side of the line that would have to pass through a new RoW, so the dispatching issues would still be there. Therefore, it might not be cost conducive to run a second line. I frequently see work in the Mechanicsburg yard but, to be honest, I haven't seen a train pass through the LEMO area for at least 15 years! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 10:52:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Locomotive Speeds Bill, According to documents found in the Q2 Book by NJ International, they list the following: MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE SPEEDS: I1s-------50 MPH J1a------50 MPH M1a-----70 MPH Q1-------70MPH Q2-------70 MPH I am sure engineers tried to stretch these limits, but if caught were probably brought in for questioning. I would suspect (or guess), wihout having the needed info, that the speeds of freight in steam days is simialr to what you see today. Just because it was steam didn't mean faster. Now Passenger Locos may be a different story. Except for the high speed Acela's and other simialr types I gotta believe the Steam Powered trian got to their destination quicker than todays cross country trains. What was it at one time, 16? 18? hours from NYC to Chicago. That was pretty damn good, and on jointed track, not welded rail of todays.standards.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 10:10:06 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Locomotive Speeds Gary sez: >MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE SPEEDS: > >I1s-------50 MPH >J1a------50 MPH >M1a-----70 MPH >Q1-------70MPH >Q2-------70 MPH > > I am sure engineers tried to stretch these limits, but if caught were >probably brought in for questioning. I think this is an interesting question...in Set Up Running O.P. Orr seems to imply that prior to WWII an engineman who could get a train over the line fast was rewarded, and speed limits were not a real barrier. In general, the attitude appears to have been to look the other way unless there was a problem. Once train control and speed limiting devices were applied post WWII, there seems to be a lot more emphasis on speed limits as rules. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 12:50:02 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Locomotive Speeds I am skeptical of these numbers. I find it hard to believe that a J1 was not allowed to go any faster than an I1. I find it hard to believe that a J1 was that much slower than a Q2. I refuse to believe that an M1 in passenger service would be limited to 70 MPH. I'd love to know what the ETT said. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Gary Mittner wrote: > Bill, > > According to documents found in the Q2 Book by NJ International, > they list the following: > > MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE SPEEDS: > > I1s-------50 MPH > J1a------50 MPH > M1a-----70 MPH > Q1-------70MPH > Q2-------70 MPH > > I am sure engineers tried to stretch these limits, but if caught were > probably brought in for questioning. > I would suspect (or guess), wihout having the needed info, that the > speeds of freight in steam days is simialr to what you see today. Just > because it was steam didn't mean faster. Now Passenger Locos may be a > different story. Except for the high speed Acela's and other simialr > types I gotta believe the Steam Powered trian got to their destination > quicker than todays cross country trains. What was it at one time, 16? > 18? hours from NYC to Chicago. That was pretty damn good, and on jointed > track, not welded rail of todays.standards.....Gary > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 13:17:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Locomotive Speeds Hi Andy, You said you refuse to believe an M1 in passenger service is limited to 70 mph. Who said that? I didn't. I said an M1a was limited to 70 MPH. This info was from 1943. I would assume this means freight service at this time period. Page 75 in the Q2 book is where this info comes from not me. It appears it is from exroxed official papers......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 12:25:17 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Locomotive Speeds From: prrq2 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3103014317_65065_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fellas, I have one of these post cards, and it claims that the speed was the "world's fastest railroad run" on June 12, 1905. I can't positively I. D. the class, but it looks like an E-5 #7002, the speed was 127.1 mph, pulling the Broadway, and says the speed record has yet to be broken. The speed record was set between AY tower and Elida, OH. The picture was taken at the 1949 Chicago World's Fair. -- Bill Ayers Remembering the PRR in Crestline http://crestline.pennsyrr.com/ From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 10:08:32 EDT To: wbigler@stny.rr.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Locomotive Speeds In a message dated 4/30/2002 7:52:16 AM Mountain Daylight Time, wbigler@stny.rr.com writes: PRR-Talk@dsop.com After the turn-of-the-century and before WWI, an E-5 made a run and was timed at 112.6 mph. An old boy in Shillington, Pa. that made 3/4" and 1-1/2" scale live steamers had a post card showing the loco and a description of the run on the back hanging on his shop wall. The run was timed in either Indiana or Ohio on the Mainline. Evan Leisey --MS_Mac_OE_3103014317_65065_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] PRR Locomotive Speeds Fellas,

I have one of these post cards, and it claims that the speed was the "= world's fastest railroad run" on June 12, 1905. I can't positively I. D= . the class, but it looks like an E-5 #7002, the speed was 127.1 mph, pullin= g the Broadway, and says the speed record has yet to be broken. The speed re= cord was set between AY tower and Elida, OH. The picture was taken at the 19= 49 Chicago World's Fair.

--
Bill Ayers
Remembering the PRR in Crestline
http://crestline.pennsyrr.com/



From: RDG2124@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 10:08:32 EDT
To: wbigler@stny.rr.com, PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Locomotive Speeds


In a message dated 4/30/2002 7:52:16 AM Mountain Daylight Time,= wbigler@stny.rr.com writes:


PRR-Talk@dsop.com

After the turn-of-the-century and before WWI,   an E-5 made a ru= n and was timed at 112.6 mph.  An old boy in Shillington, Pa. that made= 3/4" and 1-1/2" scale live steamers had a post card showing the l= oco and a description of the run on the back hanging on his shop wall.  = ;The run was timed in either Indiana or Ohio on the Mainline.

Evan Leisey


--MS_Mac_OE_3103014317_65065_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 15:38:20 -0400 From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Proto 1000 F3A units Sam, You post is not clear as to prototype for whom? Are we talking PRR? The LL P1K units are good without modifaction for many railraods but not Pennsy. But as far as accuracy goes it is a very good example of the EMD F3 phase 2 early. It matches the Western Maryland as delivered units very closely and why they didn't pick that as one to feature is beyond me. I have a list of modifactions to correctly model them as PRR units as delivered and in mid-fifties service after the Pennsy men modified them. Great units! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 15:56:53 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Locomotive Speeds Gary, I understand where the info came from. I wasn't doubting you. I was questioning the book. I've learned the hard way not to believe everything that's printed ;-) That's why I was curious about what the ETT said. In another post, Bob Zoeller provided some even more restrictive numbers, but that was for 1951, and I suspect that by then they expected all the high speed runs to be in the hands of diesels (a triumph of marketing over engineering - since steam was most efficient at high speed and diesels are best at low speed!) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Gary Mittner wrote: > Hi Andy, > > You said you refuse to believe an M1 in passenger service is limited > to 70 mph. > Who said that? I didn't. I said an M1a was limited to 70 MPH. This info > was from 1943. I would assume this means freight service at this time > period. > Page 75 in the Q2 book is where this info comes from not me. It > appears it is from exroxed official papers......Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 17:22:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Locomotive Speeds In a message dated 4/30/02 3:02:01 PM Central Daylight Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << I suspect that by then they expected all the high speed runs to be in the hands of diesels (a triumph of marketing over engineering - since steam was most efficient at high speed and diesels are best at low speed!) >> Passenger diesels were restricted to 75 mph and freight to 50 mph. Don't forget these ETT restrictions were a function of the engine capability and the actual division trackage and perhaps traffic and timing and distance of signals, to say nothing of braking. I don't have an earlier ETT to tell if the official speed limits were higher in earlier days. Certainly, one would think the Ft. Wayne Division would have among the highest limits. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "William Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Locomotive Speeds Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 20:56:05 -0400 Actually, I think those numbers were from the ETT. Like you, I'm sure the M-1 and Q-2 were much faster than that. Bill Bigler Modeling Renovo & Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" To: "Gary Mittner" Cc: "William Bigler" ; Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 12:50 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Locomotive Speeds > I am skeptical of these numbers. I find it hard to believe that a J1 was > not allowed to go any faster than an I1. I find it hard to believe that a > J1 was that much slower than a Q2. I refuse to believe that an M1 in > passenger service would be limited to 70 MPH. > > I'd love to know what the ETT said. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > > > Gary Mittner wrote: > > > Bill, > > > > According to documents found in the Q2 Book by NJ International, > > they list the following: > > > > MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE SPEEDS: > > > > I1s-------50 MPH > > J1a------50 MPH > > M1a-----70 MPH > > Q1-------70MPH > > Q2-------70 MPH > > > > I am sure engineers tried to stretch these limits, but if caught were > > probably brought in for questioning. > > I would suspect (or guess), wihout having the needed info, that the > > speeds of freight in steam days is simialr to what you see today. Just > > because it was steam didn't mean faster. Now Passenger Locos may be a > > different story. Except for the high speed Acela's and other simialr > > types I gotta believe the Steam Powered trian got to their destination > > quicker than todays cross country trains. What was it at one time, 16? > > 18? hours from NYC to Chicago. That was pretty damn good, and on jointed > > track, not welded rail of todays.standards.....Gary > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > > > PRR Loco Pics: > > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > > > & > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > > and...... > > > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > -- > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR) Proto 1000 F3A units Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 20:56:21 -0500 Hi Sam--They run ok. For appearances-- --Remove the pilot, replace with an Intermountain Passenger Pilot. --Add nose lift rings, preferably CalScale 190-415 which will stay on much better than the Detail Associates part. --Depending on the year you model, add Detail Associates 229-2215, Grab Irons for F and E units. --The hardest part: locate and cut two rectangular holes for the dynamic brake grills. --Add Detail Associates Eye Bolt Lift Rings 229-1101. --Add the antenna system, CalScale 190-402. For details of the installation of the antenna on the rear of F units, the photo on page Pennsy Power II remains our best reference. However, Greg Martin has sent out a photo of the right rear of an F3 which I can forward offlist if you want. --Scrape off the handrails and replace with wire. That about does it except for cut levers and MU hoses on the rear and windshield wipers. The bottom line--they are ok, but they require a lot of work to get right for the PRR. There are easier ways to go. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 22:40:18 -0400 From: "Richard Poole" Subject: [PRR] PRR LIVE STEAM LOCOS FOR SALE Our group has a PRR, "H-9" and a PRR, "M-1a" FOR SALE. These locomotives are coal fired and operate with 90-100 pounds of steam pressure. They are ONE INCH scale (1/12) and 4 3/4" guage. Both engines are relatively new and in very good condition. We also have a N-5b CABOOSE and a N-6a CABOOSE FOR SALE. These are also ONE INCH scale and in very good condition. They can be seen in the HARRISBURG, PA. area. In the near future, the following will also be FOR SALE . . . ONE INCH scale, PRR, "H-10", a ONE INCH scale, PRR, "I-1sa" and in 1.6 scale, (7 1/4" or 7 1/2" guage), PRR, R-T-R, (with Kiesel trucks & couplers), B-60 BAGGAGE cars and P-70 PASSENGER cars that will be suitable for hauling people. If you have interest in any of these items, please contact me. -- DICK POOLE -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 23:59:50 EST Subject: [PRR] New PRR decals Just a heads up . Some of the new PRR decals I mentioned which were at the East Coast Hobby show have hit the streets. The 87-21 diesel set and the 87-1210 cabin car set are at hobby shops this week. I picked up my sets at Rule's in Manheim Pa this afternoon. ---------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!!