From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Roundhouse Date: Mon, 7 Jan 102 20:42:17 -0500 (EST) Duane C. Miller scribit: > > As of 1997 there was a roundhouse still standing in Chambersburg, Pa. Does > anyone know if it belonged to the PRR or to the Reading. > > Duane Miller Duane, thanks for reminding me of this location, and SHAME ON ME for not remembering this thing, which was 12 miles from my backyard. It was PRR (via Cumberland Valley RR). (The Reading never ran into Chambersburg; it had connected into the Lurgan Sub of the WM in Shippensburg.) -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 -- Madison grade Date: Fri, 4 Jan 102 10:24:17 -0500 (EST) > > Thanks for all the great information. However, I am still not clear = > > on the need of the rail washers. Did they somehow improve traction? Gregg Mahlkov scribit: > Wet leaves on the rails can be extremely slippery. Sand would not get = > the leaves off the rails, only the rail washers would. > Gregg Mahlkov Moreover, leaves crushed by locomotive wheels tend to decompose into a tarry sort of substance. I guess that the reduction in coefficient of friction from adding water was the lesser of the two evils, the second being trying somehow to de-tar the rails. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Steep Grades Date: Fri, 4 Jan 102 10:27:57 -0500 (EST) WAJK4@aol.com scribit: > > Another steep grade the Pennsy had was located in Lancaster. =A0If I am > correct, I believe that it connected the PRR yard with the Reading Yard. > was informed that from railhead to railhead was a difference of twenty-eight > feet in one block!!! This bridge no longer exists. Apparently the PRR > used a B6 to make this climb, and it couldn't haul any more than three or four > cars at a time. I must thank one of the volunteers at the Railroad Museum > of PA for providing me with this information. If anyone has a picture of > this bridge I would love to see one. Walt, I don't know which yard you're referring to. I attended college across the street (Harrisburg Pike) from the PRR yard. The Reading had a small yard immediately alongside, at the same altitude. Fred [Abendschein], any idea which bridge? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] The PRR Mainline ends in Pittsburgh! Date: Mon, 7 Jan 102 09:50:58 -0500 (EST) Randy Williamson scribit: > > And I always thought that the real PRR ended in Pittsburgh with reverse > loops to head back to St. Louis/Chicago. Long live Lines West. Not reverse loops. The trains got up to speed, jumped over the Allegheny River on the Fort Wayne bridge, then became airborne, and arrived in Chicago or St. Louis the next morning. Hmm, this used to be said of academic material in particularly boring college classes, but perhaps one could modify the phrase: "I know the PRR mainline in Ohio/Indiana like the back of my eyelids." -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] East vs. west Date: Mon, 7 Jan 102 09:55:05 -0500 (EST) TJ LInk scribit: > > Come on guys! Why bicker about which lines were best, east or west? I'm = > a PRR fan no matter where it is! I just happen to love right where I = > grew up: Crestline. If I had grown up in the east, I'd like it there as = > well as west. This seems to be childish, if you guys don't want to help = > preserve a PRR Roundhouse, fine! Matt, chill out. The East vs. West stuff is all for fun. I for one am lucky to have been able to live in both Lines East and Lines West territory. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations Date: Wed, 9 Jan 102 15:24:16 -0500 (EST) BPX29@aol.com scribit: > > We'll see, but it looks like Camp Hill is already set for future years. Cinncy isn't a bad choice for a location, but is indeed at one of the Pennsy's extremeties to be sure, and a town with many contenders for railfan affection. Even saying it's an exceptionaly good meeting, when's the next year available? What is it, 2005 or so? Maybe some really unexpected contender will pop up one of these years. (Indy? Fort Wayne?Buffalo maybe?) > Should be fun. Regards, I think Pittsburgh would be quite viable, as there is a long-standing and active chapter there. (Yes, they ran the meeting at Camp Hill in the recent past.) Cinci will be an interesting test case. If it works, I only really see 2 other possibilities: Chicago and maybe St. Louis. Cleveland, Detroit, Fort Wayne, Canton, Richmond Ind. all seem to have too little nearby to be of much iterest. Maybe I'm wrong. But why not north Jersey, with its proximity to NYC? Or Long Island? Or Baltimore? Or Wilmington? Is Williamsport a possibility? As to vendors: perhaps the "usual" vendors that show up in Harrisburg won't want to make the trip with all their wares ... but other local vendors may be willing to come in. The locals would know or should be able to find out who shows up at the general train shows in their area and see if they'd be willing to show up at the PRRTHS meeting. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations Date: Wed, 9 Jan 102 17:34:58 -0500 (EST) Chany, Christopher scribit: > > I asked > Ivan a couple of years ago if we would ever go back to Balto. and he said > that Maryland charged the society some sort of registration tax for every > attendee! Really? For a nonprofit society?? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] English units anyone? Or metric? Date: Thu, 10 Jan 102 08:57:25 -0500 (EST) > Lew, > If you are going to test the cookbook, what about also adding metric > measures, I do know that American Imperial and British Imperial measures are > not the same... > Patrick Grace RickTipton@aol.com scribit: > American Imperial -- I think you get credit for creating an interesting new > set of measurements. Got to agree, though, it's confusing. I was always > taught that the measures we US-type-Americans used were called English units. > Schoolteachers taught us how to convert from these "English" units to > metric. Then I found out some of our "English" units weren't the same as > Imperial (British) measures. In fact, I'm still not sure if all of Canada's > Imperial measures are the same as Britain's. Or what this has to do with > TV's or videotapes . > On second thought, how about a PRR cookbook entirely in metric? Lessee, this > cake takes 454 milligrams of flour, 3.8 liters of water... > Rick, up way too late. Rick, I have some cures for your insomnia, but you'll have to visit me in Cleveland, as I don't have a license in Kentucky! :-) But whas has this to do with the PRR? ... Many of you are old enough to remember that the US almost metricized in the mid- to late-1970s. I recall some road signs adding kms to miles, and of course, nearly all packaged foods now sport metric units. Predictably, people did exact conversions, and thus the metric units became awfully "unfriendly". I mean really, do you want to talk about 1 pound of something, or 454 grams? They _could_ have said 450 grams, then added a "NOW 4 grams FREE!" logo, but of course, no one thought of that. So now, 25 years later, the only things routinely bought in metric units are medications (thank God that grains, drams, and minims are gone!), soft drinks, alcohol (wine and spirits, though not beer), and electricity. I once, a while ago, saw a 10-kilo bag of potatoes. Yes, I _still_ have not gotten to the PRR, or *RR, connection. Here it is. I am slowly wending my way through some old _Railroad Gazette_s. I'm up to 1894 at the moment, and it has been very interesting to me to read all of the debate, some of it quite heated, in the editorial pages of that trade journal, about adoption of the metric system. The PRR was not really involved directly, so far as I can tell, but surely its engineers followed the discussions closely. One other thing to note. Congress approved the use of the metric system in the late 19th century. (Of course, this approval is relevant to _inter_state commerce.) The U.S. as a whole has, believe it or not, never made any moves to make the English system official. This is reflected, as well, in the fact that the NIST, National Institute of Standards and Technology, the former NBS, National Bureau of Standards, calls the English system thus: "the U.S. Customary System". I.e., it is simply customary, by custom, that we use it. In fact, NIST/NBS now defines all English measurements in terms of the analogous metric measure. As to U.S. versus Canadian/British differences: the only difference in the unit sizes that I am aware of is the variation in liquid measures, quarts and gallons. It goes back to some issue or other with the "Queen Anne pint", and I no longer remember the details. Some web site or other probably has a complete historical account ... CGS, MKS, and SI are left as an exercise to the reader. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 02:40:50 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Jack Fravert Auction 14 closes Jan 9, but not on eBay Just a note to remind my friends on the list know that List 14 from the Jack Fravert estate will close next week on January 9 at 8 pm. Among goodies of interest to Pennsy fans are a 1956 PRR rule book, and a duplicate slide set that includes C1 #6951 and K4s #1533 at Louisville 14th Street. Of general interest, there's a 1926 financial book called Mundy's which offers period maps, corporate and organizational details, and actually (unlike Standard & Poor's) seems to understand operating relationships of railroad subsidiaries. There's a 27 volume set of American Railway Engineering Association Proceedings starting with 1913. There are also Westinghouse Air Brake manuals, Official Guides from 1942, 1969, and 1971, and much more. An email to me will bring you lists, and details on how we conduct these auctions via email and without benefit of eBay. Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone and fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 02:40:50 EST Subject: [PRR] Jack Fravert Auction 14 closes Jan 9, but not on eBay Just a note to remind my friends on the list know that List 14 from the Jack Fravert estate will close next week on January 9 at 8 pm. Among goodies of interest to Pennsy fans are a 1956 PRR rule book, and a duplicate slide set that includes C1 #6951 and K4s #1533 at Louisville 14th Street. Of general interest, there's a 1926 financial book called Mundy's which offers period maps, corporate and organizational details, and actually (unlike Standard & Poor's) seems to understand operating relationships of railroad subsidiaries. There's a 27 volume set of American Railway Engineering Association Proceedings starting with 1913. There are also Westinghouse Air Brake manuals, Official Guides from 1942, 1969, and 1971, and much more. An email to me will bring you lists, and details on how we conduct these auctions via email and without benefit of eBay. Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone and fax 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TJ LInk" Subject: [PRR] Q-2 and T-1 Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 10:41:36 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C192B0.E34A95E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fellas, Does anyone have prints of the Q-2 and T-1 locomotives showing = dimensions? I need to know what the length from coupler face to coupler = face as well as the center of the first pilot wheel to the center of the = last wheel on the tender's trailing truck.=20 Matt Link ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C192B0.E34A95E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fellas,
    Does anyone have prints of the Q-2 and T-1 = locomotives=20 showing dimensions? I need to know what the length from coupler face to = coupler=20 face as well as the center of the first pilot wheel to the center of the = last=20 wheel on the tender's trailing truck.
    Matt Link
------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C192B0.E34A95E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Q-2 and T-1 Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 10:34:08 -0600 Matt, I have the NJ International Q Class book, and it has a drawing of the Q-2. The wheelbase dimension is 107'7 1/2", and the coupler face dimension is 124'7 1/8". Model Railroader's Steam Locomotive Cyclopedia has a drawing of the T-1. The coupler face dimension is 119'9 1/2". However, this dimension may be a little bit longer, as the rear line only goes to the back of the tender, not the coupler face. The drawing does not show a total wheelbase dimension. I was able to add up all the dimensions shown, and got 104'8 1/2". The segment they left out appears to be about 36". So, if you are sizing a turntable, it looks like 110' would do the job. Andy -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of TJ LInk Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 9:42 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Q-2 and T-1 Fellas, Does anyone have prints of the Q-2 and T-1 locomotives showing dimensions? I need to know what the length from coupler face to coupler face as well as the center of the first pilot wheel to the center of the last wheel on the tender's trailing truck. Matt Link ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Breon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Q-2 and T-1 Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 11:39:33 -0600 Matt asks: Fellas, Does anyone have prints of the Q-2 and T-1 locomotives showing dimensions? I need to know what the length from coupler face to coupler face as well as the center of the first pilot wheel to the center of the last wheel on the tender's trailing truck. Matt Link Matt, According to Staufer's Pennsylvania Railroad Steam and Electric Locomotive Diagrams, the dimensions are as follows: Coupler to coupler: T1=122'-9 3/4" Q2=124'-7 1/8" CL-CL of first and last wheel: T1=107'-0" Q2=107'-7 1/2" Jerry Breon Reading, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Q-2 and T-1 Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 13:20:05 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C192C7.06EC9640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have the equpment diagrams that show these dimensions for the T1 & Q2 on my website... Check out: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=q2.gif http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=t1_6110-6111.gif http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=t1_after1_1_45.gif Hope this helps out! Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of TJ LInk Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 10:42 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Q-2 and T-1 Fellas, Does anyone have prints of the Q-2 and T-1 locomotives showing dimensions? I need to know what the length from coupler face to coupler face as well as the center of the first pilot wheel to the center of the last wheel on the tender's trailing truck. Matt Link ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C192C7.06EC9640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have=20 the equpment diagrams that show these dimensions for the T1 & Q2 on = my=20 website... 
 
Check=20 out:
h= ttp://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=3Dq2.gif<= /DIV>
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=3Dt1_6110-= 6111.gif
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=3Dt1_aft= er1_1_45.gif
 
Hope=20 this helps out!
 
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of TJ LInk
Sent: = Tuesday,=20 January 01, 2002 10:42 AM
To: = PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject:=20 [PRR] Q-2 and T-1

Fellas,
    Does anyone have prints of the Q-2 and T-1 = locomotives=20 showing dimensions? I need to know what the length from coupler face = to=20 coupler face as well as the center of the first pilot wheel to the = center of=20 the last wheel on the tender's trailing truck.
    Matt Link
------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C192C7.06EC9640-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 15:01:53 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Not so Pennsy Interlocking tower On Mon, 31 Dec 2001, robert netzlof wrote: > Ertl sold off the model, which was advertised as "BR&P > Ashford Tower". They offered it only fully assembled > for $40. I found that very resistable. Got a couple > of the earlier Design Associates kits on eBay for much > less. Thought of getting 5 so that I would have more > than the BR&P did. The Railway Design Associates model is still around and retails for $20, btw. http://www.railwaydesign.com/store/struct/ is the maker's online store. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 16:40:06 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Rockville Bridge B'day Party From: Jerry Britton The December 30th edition of the Sunday Patriot News (Harrisburg, Pa.) had a brief article on the Rockville Bridge and the fact that it opened on March 30, 1902 and that its 100th birthday is approaching. The article goes on to state that there will be a "Birthday Party" for the bridge, from 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. at the Lions Club Park in Marysville. However, the party is being delayed a week due to Easter and will take place on April 6. Since I am somewhat local to the area (25 minute drive), I will contact the organizers and pass on more info as it comes available. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TJ LInk" Subject: [PRR] Bowser H-21 hoppers Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 18:56:23 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C192F6.01DDAE80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fellas, Looking for an online dealer (or any I can contact) who can get = me these hoppers for less than advertised on the Bowser site. I figure = for my coming layout I'll want many of these. I'm willing to buy 12 = packs. I've come across these for as low as $9.50 ea., but I lost that = site and now I cannot find any site! Matt Link ------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C192F6.01DDAE80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fellas, Looking for an online dealer (or any I can contact) who can = get me=20 these hoppers for less than advertised on the Bowser site. I figure for = my=20 coming layout I'll want many of these. I'm willing to buy 12 packs. I've = come=20 across these for as low as $9.50 ea., but I lost that site and now = I cannot=20 find any site! Matt Link
------=_NextPart_000_0041_01C192F6.01DDAE80-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 06:24:34 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Congressional/ Senator Trains From: Beth Caples I need to find information on the Congo train sets built by Budd in the early 1950's. What I need is car type and/ or class, car number , and name given to each car. The PRR Color Guide does just enough to wet my apatite but doesn't give me enough info. to go on. Any assistance would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 15:18:00 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Bowser Projects From: Jerry Britton The N scale H21a project is doing well. The first shot has been in and reviewed. Still on target for late February delivery. As for HO scale... a B6 0-6-0 is coming your way! (No add'l details at this time.) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Franke" Subject: Re: [PRR] R-50b Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 18:46:09 -0500 Amen for an N scale version HO stands for Horribly Oversized Mark Franke ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Dugas" To: Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] R-50b > Hi Greg, All, > > TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > > > PS... It will be some time before we see it on the shelves, be patient, and what do YUZE GIZE need next! > > Why, an N-Scale version, of course! > > Thanks, > > Ron. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Roc83@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 19:12:02 EST Subject: [PRR] SD-7 --part1_110.b09c0fa.2964fbd2_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list, In my little bit of research I have discovered the Pennsy only had two SD-7s. These units were #8588 and #8589, class ES15ax. A note referring to these units noted hump control; Rail Washers. I understand what a hump yard is but what is hump control? Additionally, what are rail washers? Thanks Ralph --part1_110.b09c0fa.2964fbd2_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list,
       In my little bit of research I have discovered the Pennsy only had two SD-7s.  These units were #8588 and #8589, class ES15ax.  A note referring to these units noted hump control; Rail Washers.  I understand what a hump yard is but what is hump control?  Additionally, what are rail washers? 

Thanks

Ralph --part1_110.b09c0fa.2964fbd2_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "S J Lash" Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 19:27:28 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C193C3.8421D4C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ralph, These two units were specifically purchased for a branch of = the Pennsy in Ohio. There is a short expanation in the book Pennsy = Diesel Years Vol 1 Hope this helps Jim Lash ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Roc83@aol.com=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 7:12 PM Subject: [PRR] SD-7 Hello list, In my little bit of research I have discovered the Pennsy only = had two SD-7s. These units were #8588 and #8589, class ES15ax. A note = referring to these units noted hump control; Rail Washers. I understand = what a hump yard is but what is hump control? Additionally, what are = rail washers? =20 Thanks Ralph=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C193C3.8421D4C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Ralph,  These two units were = specifically purchased for a branch of the Pennsy in Ohio.  There = is a=20 short expanation in the book Pennsy Diesel Years Vol 1  Hope this=20 helps  Jim Lash
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Roc83@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, = 2002 7:12=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] SD-7

Hello = list,
       In my=20 little bit of research I have discovered the Pennsy only had two = SD-7s. =20 These units were #8588 and #8589, class ES15ax.  A note referring = to=20 these units noted hump control; Rail Washers.  I understand what = a hump=20 yard is but what is hump control?  Additionally, what are rail=20 washers? 

Thanks

Ralph=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C193C3.8421D4C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 19:51:03 -0500 From: davep Subject: [Fwd: Re: [PRR] SD-7] ----- Original Message ----- From: Roc83@aol.com >> In my little bit of research I have discovered the Pennsy >>only had two SD-7s. These units were #8588 and #8589, >>class ES15ax. A note referring to these units noted hump >>control; Rail Washers. I understand what a hump yard is >>but what is hump control? Special electronics/controls allowing fine control of TE at Low Speed. Usually used in hump switching (hence the name). cf below >> Additionally, what are rail washers? Round things, under the track bolts? Used for dirty rail (ie pre retention terlets)? Ahemmmm As the cited reference will no doubt explain: These locs were for a specific, steep line. Hence, fine control of TE to allow running close to wheel slip limits. To further enhance TE, provision was made to remove debris from the rail head, to enhance traction: rail washer best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 20:14:21 -0500 Subject: [PRR] 1900 CT1000 Now Available From: Jerry Britton Thanks to a loan from Robert Netzloff, there is now a PDF on Keystone Crossings of the July 1, 1900 edition of the CT1000. This volume covers the entire PRR which, at the time, did not include Pennsylvania Lines (aka Lines West). Once the two were joined, the CT1000 was published as a complete book and as three regional sub-books. Thank you, Mr. Netzlof! ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 20:35:09 EST Subject: [PRR] RR Museum of PA Christmas Card As a member of The Friends of The RR Museum of PA. I have been getting a Nice Christmas card each year from the Museum with either a photo of one of the Museums pieces of rolling stock or artwork from one of the many know PRR artists graceing the card. Well today is January 2nd 2002 and my Holiday Card from the Museum arrived today. Now Its nice that they send the card s out at all... and I know the postoffice has been working under stress this holiday season. But, I found it amusing that the art work on this years card is the famous Teller print On Time. . . go figure! Jon S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 21:00:24 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C193D0.7FBDA460 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ralph, These two locomotives were specifically purchased and modified to = operate on the Madison Incline, on the PRR branch to Madison, Indiana, = which was the steepest standard gauge grade in the US. This line is = still operated, although it is now the Madison Railway, owned by the = City of Madison Port Authority. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Roc83@aol.com=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 7:12 PM Subject: [PRR] SD-7 Hello list, In my little bit of research I have discovered the Pennsy only = had two SD-7s. These units were #8588 and #8589, class ES15ax. A note = referring to these units noted hump control; Rail Washers. I understand = what a hump yard is but what is hump control? Additionally, what are = rail washers? =20 Thanks Ralph=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C193D0.7FBDA460 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ralph,
 
These two locomotives were specifically purchased = and modified=20 to operate on the Madison Incline,  on the PRR branch to Madison, = Indiana,=20 which was the steepest standard gauge grade in the US. This line is = still=20 operated, although it is now the Madison Railway, owned by the City of = Madison=20 Port Authority.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Roc83@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, = 2002 7:12=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] SD-7

Hello = list,
       In my=20 little bit of research I have discovered the Pennsy only had two = SD-7s. =20 These units were #8588 and #8589, class ES15ax.  A note referring = to=20 these units noted hump control; Rail Washers.  I understand what = a hump=20 yard is but what is hump control?  Additionally, what are rail=20 washers? 

Thanks

Ralph=20 ------=_NextPart_000_001F_01C193D0.7FBDA460-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 21:11:22 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 --part1_9e.1ffe23fc.296517ca_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 01/02/2002 6:35:23 PM Central Standard Time, sjlash@tcis.net writes: > Hi Ralph, These two units were specifically purchased for a branch of the > Pennsy in Ohio. There is a short expanation in the book Pennsy Diesel > Years Vol 1 Hope this helps Jim Lash > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Roc83@aol.com >> To: prr-talk@dsop.com >> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 7:12 PM >> Subject: [PRR] SD-7 >> >> >> Hello list, >> In my little bit of research I have discovered the Pennsy only had >> two SD-7s. These units were #8588 and #8589, class ES15ax. A note >> referring to these units noted hump control; Rail Washers. I understand >> what a hump yard is but what is hump control? Additionally, what are rail >> washers? >> >> Thanks >> >> Ralph > Hi Ralph, I believe these two units were purchased for use on Madison Hill in Indiana. Al --part1_9e.1ffe23fc.296517ca_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 01/02/2002 6:35:23 PM Central Standard Time, sjlash@tcis.net writes:


Hi Ralph,  These two units were specifically purchased for a branch of the Pennsy in Ohio.  There is a short expanation in the book Pennsy Diesel Years Vol 1  Hope this helps  Jim Lash

----- Original Message -----
From: Roc83@aol.com
To: prr-talk@dsop.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 7:12 PM
Subject: [PRR] SD-7


Hello list,
       In my little bit of research I have discovered the Pennsy only had two SD-7s.  These units were #8588 and #8589, class ES15ax.  A note referring to these units noted hump control; Rail Washers.  I understand what a hump yard is but what is hump control?  Additionally, what are rail washers? 

Thanks

Ralph



Hi Ralph,
I believe these two units were purchased for use on Madison Hill in Indiana.
Al --part1_9e.1ffe23fc.296517ca_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "WaltP" Subject: [PRR] SD-7 (ES15ax) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 21:12:27 -0500 Ralph, The purpose of these two units was to move tonnage out of the Ohio River Valley at Madison Indiana. Said grade is 5.89%, making it one of the steepest mainline climbes in the USA. Rumor has it that this cut is LOADED with nasties (read copperheads). Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 21:36:05 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 From: EJ Caylor I thought these were the Madison Hill pair, only operated on the 5.89% grade leading from N. Madison to Madison, IN. E.J. Caylor Webmaster: Central Indiana Railroad Information Network http://members.tripod.com/Caylorman/rail.htm ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 22:22:53 -0500 From: Nick Kulp Subject: [PRR] Looking for Jim Clay --=====================_914316==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hey Jim, Your paonline address doesn't work. I have a session scheduled for Jan 19th t 1300. Can you make it? Nick Kulp Modeling the Cornwall Railroad with major PRR and Reading connections. --=====================_914316==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Hey Jim,

Your paonline address doesn't work. I have a session scheduled for Jan 19th t 1300. Can you make it?

Nick Kulp
Modeling the Cornwall Railroad with major PRR and Reading connections. --=====================_914316==_.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 22:42:42 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] RR Museum of PA Christmas Card In a message dated 1/2/02 8:47:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, JONS6755@aol.com writes: << But, I found it amusing that the art work on this years card is the famous Teller print On Time. . . go figure! >> Not sure of your location - or if all were mailed at once, I did get mine 2 or 3 days prior to Christmas - I once got one, some years ago, from the local transit Authority metered well after the first of the year Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 23:57:37 -0500 Bill, Streetcars also negotiated steeper grades than the Madison Hill, but since the discussion was about PRR and SD7's, I erred in making the implicit assumption that we were talking about common carrier railroads' main lines. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Gregg Mahlkov" Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 11:13 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 > Steepest standard gauge (adhesion) in the US?...Well...yes > and no. Mainline steam road...yes. Steepest standard gauge > road...no! > Way back in the early years in the wilds of Michigan's > Upper Peninsula some of the logging roads crossed valleys > by "dip sections", with grades approaching 25~30%!!! these > were operated by the train coasting down one side, > speeding up across the valley bottom (usually a mile or > two wide) and coasting up the other side. As I remember > it, TRAINS once (maybe in the early 70's) ran an article > on this operation...anyone out there remember this > article??? > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > > On Wed, 2 Jan 2002 21:00:24 -0500 > "Gregg Mahlkov" wrote: > >Ralph, > > > >These two locomotives were specifically purchased and > >modified to operate on the Madison Incline, on the PRR > >branch to Madison, Indiana, which was the steepest > >standard gauge grade in the US. This line is still > >operated, although it is now the Madison Railway, owned > >by the City of Madison Port Authority. > > > >Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Roc83@aol.com > > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 7:12 PM > > Subject: [PRR] SD-7 > > > > > > Hello list, > > In my little bit of research I have discovered > >the Pennsy only had two SD-7s. These units were #8588 > >and #8589, class ES15ax. A note referring to these units > >noted hump control; Rail Washers. I understand what a > >hump yard is but what is hump control? Additionally, > >what are rail washers? > > > > Thanks > > > > Ralph > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 07:45:37 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C1942A.A2473F00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable These are the Madison incline engines. In addition to the rail washers = they were ballasted heavier than normal to assist in traction. If you = look at the side sill you will see the difference in thickness. They = did not have MU connections and the couple of times they were needed = together they required separate crews. In steam days the engines were = run pointed up the hill to keep the crown sheets covered and to give a = degree of safety regaridng boiler explosions. CR obviously kept them = there after they took over. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Roc83@aol.com=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 6:12 PM Subject: [PRR] SD-7 Hello list, In my little bit of research I have discovered the Pennsy only = had two SD-7s. These units were #8588 and #8589, class ES15ax. A note = referring to these units noted hump control; Rail Washers. I understand = what a hump yard is but what is hump control? Additionally, what are = rail washers? =20 Thanks Ralph=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C1942A.A2473F00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
These are the Madison incline = engines.  In=20 addition to the rail washers they were ballasted heavier than normal to = assist=20 in traction.  If you look at the side sill you will see the = difference in=20 thickness.   They did not have MU connections and the couple = of times=20 they were needed together they required separate crews.  In steam = days the=20 engines were run pointed up the hill to keep the crown sheets covered = and to=20 give a degree of safety regaridng boiler explosions.  CR obviously = kept=20 them there after they took over.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Roc83@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, = 2002 6:12=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] SD-7

Hello = list,
       In my=20 little bit of research I have discovered the Pennsy only had two = SD-7s. =20 These units were #8588 and #8589, class ES15ax.  A note referring = to=20 these units noted hump control; Rail Washers.  I understand what = a hump=20 yard is but what is hump control?  Additionally, what are rail=20 washers? 

Thanks

Ralph=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C1942A.A2473F00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 15:37:27 +0000 Steve and the List: Did these SD-7 occasionally wander onto other PRR lines in Indiana in the event of a power shortage imbalance? Have these engines been spotted elsewhere on the Pennsy? Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana >From: Steve Long >To: AlbertSR@aol.com >CC: sjlash@tcis.net, Roc83@aol.com, prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 >Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2000 22:00:26 -0500 > >Yes, there were the Madison Hill engines. They were serviced at >Hawthorne Yard, Indianapolis. Were stationed at North Madison and were >setup to go engine first down the hill. There's a photo of one of them >in Don Ball's book. >Steve Long > > >AlbertSR@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 01/02/2002 6:35:23 PM Central Standard Time, > > sjlash@tcis.net writes: > > > > > > > >> Hi Ralph, These two units were specifically purchased for a branch > >> of the Pennsy in Ohio. There is a short expanation in the book > >> Pennsy Diesel Years Vol 1 Hope this helps Jim Lash > >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- > >> > From: Roc83@aol.com > >> > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > >> > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 7:12 PM > >> > Subject: [PRR] SD-7 > >> > > >> > > >> > Hello list, > >> > In my little bit of research I have discovered the Pennsy > >> > only had two SD-7s. These units were #8588 and #8589, class > >> > ES15ax. A note referring to these units noted hump control; Rail > >> > Washers. I understand what a hump yard is but what is hump > >> > control? Additionally, what are rail washers? > >> > > >> > Thanks > >> > > >> > Ralph > >> > > Hi Ralph, > > I believe these two units were purchased for use on Madison Hill in > > Indiana. > > Al _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:06:26 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 Just wondering, how did the Madison incline compare with the Saluda grade in North Carolina? Sounds like Madison may be greater, but I think the signs in Saluda claim to be the steepest mainline grade in the US. I was at Saluda last week and it's pretty impressive, the tracks seem to fall off the end of the earth when viewed from the town at the top! But they were rusty, and I wonder if NS has mothballed it. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:58:52 -0500 (EST) From: Will Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 Yes NS has...I remember reading that not too long ago..might even have been in one of the ..it is no longer in service... On Thu, 3 Jan 2002 bobsin@nac.net wrote: >Just wondering, how did the Madison incline compare with the >Saluda grade in North Carolina? Sounds like Madison may be >greater, but I think the signs in Saluda claim to be the steepest >mainline grade in the US. I was at Saluda last week and it's pretty >impressive, the tracks seem to fall off the end of the earth when >viewed from the town at the top! But they were rusty, and I wonder >if NS has mothballed it. > >John Bobsin > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > Will Semanchuk-Enser Blue Moon General Manager alcoman@bluemoon.net www.bluemoon.net - Blue Moon Internet Corp. V.90, X2 & K56flex www.railfan.net - The Railfan Network ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 12:08:53 -0500 From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 They recently announced that they were mothballing the Saluda line. I think the grade was listed at 4.7%. John Ryan bobsin@nac.net wrote: > Just wondering, how did the Madison incline compare with the > Saluda grade in North Carolina? Sounds like Madison may be > greater, but I think the signs in Saluda claim to be the steepest > mainline grade in the US. I was at Saluda last week and it's pretty > impressive, the tracks seem to fall off the end of the earth when > viewed from the town at the top! But they were rusty, and I wonder > if NS has mothballed it. > > John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Adrion Figel" Subject: [PRR] Passenger Cars Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 09:20:37 -0800 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C19437.E7843D40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Guys, Iam new to the site, looks like a great venue for information. Iam assembling a PRR passenger train. The motive power is 3 EMD F7A = units (ABA) and corrugated side cars with the brown and yellow color = scheme. Iam somewhat a novice to all of this so, bear with me. My = question concerns the interiors of the cars as to the color scheme might = have been (seats, floors, partions, etc.) so I may be able to paint them = accurately.=20 Any information will be greatly appreciated. = Thanks, Adrion ------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C19437.E7843D40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Guys, Iam new to the = site, looks=20 like a great venue for information.
 
Iam assembling a PRR = passenger=20 train.  The motive power is 3 EMD F7A units (ABA) and corrugated = side cars=20 with the brown and yellow color scheme.  Iam somewhat a novice to = all of=20 this so, bear with me.  My question concerns the interiors of the = cars as=20 to the color scheme might have been (seats, floors, partions, etc.) so I = may be=20 able to paint them accurately.
 
Any information will be = greatly=20 appreciated.
 
    =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20     Thanks, Adrion
------=_NextPart_000_0026_01C19437.E7843D40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:24:07 -0600 If I had any alternative and merged with a company that had to run Saluda as their only option I would get rid of it just as fast as I could. It is an extremely risky and dangerous operation that I could do with out. Since N&W had their own lines I would use them over Southern's Saluda any day of the week. Why run a nightmare when you don't have to? ----- Original Message ----- From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." To: Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 > They recently announced that they were mothballing the Saluda line. I > think the grade was listed at 4.7%. > > John Ryan > > bobsin@nac.net wrote: > > > Just wondering, how did the Madison incline compare with the > > Saluda grade in North Carolina? Sounds like Madison may be > > greater, but I think the signs in Saluda claim to be the steepest > > mainline grade in the US. I was at Saluda last week and it's pretty > > impressive, the tracks seem to fall off the end of the earth when > > viewed from the town at the top! But they were rusty, and I wonder > > if NS has mothballed it. > > > > John Bobsin > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 12:26:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 (little off topic) John, Will, List Not sure how the Pennsy did it on Madison Hill but I had the chance to see the NS in operation on Saluda while on a road trip several years ago. While treking down the highway we caught the odor of freshly cut wood out the car windows. Low and behold a wood chip train coming out of Spartansburg? was heading north. We started to follow the train (about 18 cars or so and 3 locos). Knowing the train was headed for Saluda we raced ahead to the top of the hill. We waited and waited, finally the train came up, pulling only 5 cars. Another railfan there told us to head back down the hill to where the rest of the train was left. He said the locos will be back down to haul more car lots up the hill. When we got to the bottom of the hill and looked up to where the train would have to go, we understood then why only a few cars at a time. When the train crew came back down I yelled up to the brakeman-conductor-switchtender? asking him how many more trips he would have to make up and down the hill to get is short train over. "3 more" he yelled back. Watching those locos rev up and make a run was really something. Can you imagine that in steam days? Wow! Now back to Madison Hill. Was the operation similar to Saluda Grade?...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 12:37:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Steep Grades List, Speaking of steep grades, I know of another one here in the Pitssburgh area. It is located west of Conway Yards in the town of New Brighton. It is a branch from the Ft. Wayne Mainline. It used to service industries in New Brighton and at the top of the hill in Rochester. I don't have any track charts or other info informing me of the grade %. Anyone here have any? It is steep though. I do remember talking to a local ex-PRR-PC Engineer that used to make the run. It was similar to the story I shared on Saluda. His power was usually an SW-1 (needed small power due to a sharpe left curve at the top of the hill). In steam days I assume a B6 had the chore. The grade is no longer used. (Kids burnt the trestle) NS does use part of the branch for MOW storage etc......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 12:41:12 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger Cars From: Jerry Britton On 1/3/02 12:20 PM, Adrion Figel (smred@prodigy.net) wrote: > Iam assembling a PRR passenger train. The motive power is 3 EMD F7A units > (ABA) and corrugated side cars with the brown and yellow color scheme. Iam > somewhat a novice to all of this so, bear with me. My question concerns the > interiors of the cars as to the color scheme might have been (seats, floors, > partions, etc.) so I may be able to paint them accurately. > > Any information will be greatly appreciated. > Welcome, Adrion! First, model for yourself and your own satisfaction. You'll find lots of info here, perhaps more than you want. At times your "plans" will receive recommendations. With that in mind... 1) EMD F7's were freight engines. They were not used to pull passenger trains. For passenger service, you want E7's (ABA) or E8's (AA). In HO scale, look for Life Like Proto 2000 units on eBay (no longer available retail); in N scale, Kato (E8's still available). 2) The "brown" you refer to should appear more of a red. It's called "Tuscan Red". Before 1952 the lettering was "Gold"; afterwards it was called "Dulux Gold" which appeared as more of a yellow. 3) Here's where I may get quickly corrected -- most of the solid corrugated car sets ran on what is now the "Northeast Corridor", that is, Washington-Baltimore-Philadelphia-New York City. Corrugated cars appeared intermixed with smooth side cars on east-west trains (New York City-Philadelphia-Harrisburg-Pittsburgh to St. Louis, Chicago, etc.). 4) Interior info is very hard to come by. The "Pullman-Standard Library, Volume Four" (very hard to come by) is a trove of information, including hundreds of black and white photos of the interiors. The text alludes to some of the colors used. I can tell you that the PRR used a lot of stainless in their walls and trim. Guess it was the "in thing" back then! Good luck, and keep at it! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 (little off topic) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 11:49:03 -0600 Madison is nothing like Saluda and yet it is. Basically the Madison incline is used to get cars out of the Ohio river valley up to the regular height of the state of Ohio. I believe this is a branch and as such does not have through traffic or connections. Therefore train length is not what it is on Saluda nor is the frequency. Madison is much shorter and steeper. Trains had an article on Slauda many years ago. It also includes some run away tracks that are purposely set for the run away direction that funnels trains up hill through gravel to stop them. The only way that a train can get clearance is for the engineer to blow a horn signal to the operator of the switch that the train is under control. Only then does he throw the switch so the train can continue on down the mountain. I don't believe Madison has any run away protection. It is my understanding that there is (or was) an engine at Purdue University ( That is why they are the boilermakers) that was one of the steam engines used on this line. It is an 0-10-0 and drawings were in the centerspread of MR in the late 60's. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: "Will" Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 (little off topic) > John, Will, List > > Not sure how the Pennsy did it on Madison Hill but I had the chance > to see the NS in operation on Saluda while on a road trip several years > ago. While treking down the highway we caught the odor of freshly cut > wood out the car windows. Low and behold a wood chip train coming out of > Spartansburg? was heading north. We started to follow the train (about > 18 cars or so and 3 locos). Knowing the train was headed for Saluda we > raced ahead to the top of the hill. We waited and waited, finally the > train came up, pulling only 5 cars. Another railfan there told us to > head back down the hill to where the rest of the train was left. He said > the locos will be back down to haul more car lots up the hill. When we > got to the bottom of the hill and looked up to where the train would > have to go, we understood then why only a few cars at a time. When the > train crew came back down I yelled up to the > brakeman-conductor-switchtender? asking him how many more trips he would > have to make up and down the hill to get is short train over. "3 more" > he yelled back. Watching those locos rev up and make a run was really > something. Can you imagine that in steam days? Wow! > Now back to Madison Hill. Was the operation similar to Saluda > Grade?...Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 12:55:07 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 From: EJ Caylor When Penn Central took over, they were assigned to Avon as a maintenance base. I have heard then that they occasionally ran up the I&F to Logansport, to blow the carbon out of them. I imagine that the same was done during the PRR days. E.J. Caylor Webmaster: Central Indiana Railroad Information Network http://members.tripod.com/Caylorman/rail.htm ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 13:39:54 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 (long) From: EJ Caylor Here's a summary of the instructions for operating on the Madison Hill, taken from Western Region ETT No. 7, dated 10/29/67. Only the ERS-15AX engines were allowed to operate on the branch between the derail located at 4750 feetsouth of MP 42 and Bridge 44.14 (Main St., Madison). The engine is to be operated at the south end of the train, unless otherwise instructed by the Superintendent Transportation. Trains in either direction were not to exceed 15 cars or 350 gross tons or 51 gross tons per effective brake, exclusive of engine, unless otherwise instructed. Light engine movements were prohibited. All dynamic braking equipment, air brake equipment on both engine and cars, as well as rail washing device, coolant levels, lubricating oil, and fuel oil were to be checked at both the engine terminal & yard terminal. Brake pipe pressure on the train was to be set at 110 lbs., and after the brake test, if the pressure was at 105 lbs or more the train could depart. A running brake test was to be made approaching the derail located 1155 feet south of North Madison Station and train stopped. After brake release, the retaining valves of all loaded cars were to be placed in high pressure setting, empty cars placed in low pressure setting. After passing derail and while on the grade: Dynamics brakes must be used to obtain maximum effect, while making sure the load meter does not reach 700 Amps. Train speed is to be controlled by supplimenting dymanic brakes with train brakes. Train speed must avoid going over 8 MPH, and travel time from derail to Bridge 44.14 is to take a minimum of 12 minutes. If the locomotive becomes inoperative in any way, while on the grade, movement must be stopped and all hand brakes applied, until locomotive becomes operative again. hope this clears some stuff up, E.J. Caylor Webmaster: Central Indiana Railroad Information Network http://members.tripod.com/Caylorman/rail.htm ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 13:47:48 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Steep Grades On Thu, 3 Jan 2002, Gary Mittner wrote: > List, > > Speaking of steep grades, I know of another one here in the > Pitssburgh area. It is located west of Conway Yards in the town of New > Brighton. It is a branch from the Ft. Wayne Mainline. It used to service > industries in New Brighton and at the top of the hill in Rochester. I > don't have any track charts or other info informing me of the grade %. > Anyone here have any? It is steep though. I do remember talking to a I recall Mark Bej wanted to model that branch, perhaps he has some information. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 (little off topic) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 13:49:52 -0500 Norm, When did Ohio take over the state of Indiana?? The Madison Branch has always been entirely with in the State of Indiana, diverging off the Indiananpolis-Louisville line at Columbus, IN. There was a story in "Trains" recently about the first time the ex-NYC shops got hold of the "cadillacs", as the Madison engines were called. Being unaware of why a locomotive in Indiana would need dynamic brakes, they removed them. The first trip down the "hill" after shopping was quite exciting, to say the least! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Norm Bell" To: "Prr-Talk" ; "Gary Mittner" Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 (little off topic) > Madison is nothing like Saluda and yet it is. Basically the Madison incline > is used to get cars out of the Ohio river valley up to the regular height of > the state of Ohio. I believe this is a branch and as such does not have > through traffic or connections. Therefore train length is not what it is on > Saluda nor is the frequency. Madison is much shorter and steeper. Trains > had an article on Slauda many years ago. It also includes some run away > tracks that are purposely set for the run away direction that funnels trains > up hill through gravel to stop them. The only way that a train can get > clearance is for the engineer to blow a horn signal to the operator of the > switch that the train is under control. Only then does he throw the switch > so the train can continue on down the mountain. I don't believe Madison has > any run away protection. It is my understanding that there is (or was) an > engine at Purdue University ( That is why they are the boilermakers) that > was one of the steam engines used on this line. It is an 0-10-0 and > drawings were in the centerspread of MR in the late 60's. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary Mittner" > To: "Will" > Cc: ; > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 11:26 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 (little off topic) > > > > John, Will, List > > > > Not sure how the Pennsy did it on Madison Hill but I had the chance > > to see the NS in operation on Saluda while on a road trip several years > > ago. While treking down the highway we caught the odor of freshly cut > > wood out the car windows. Low and behold a wood chip train coming out of > > Spartansburg? was heading north. We started to follow the train (about > > 18 cars or so and 3 locos). Knowing the train was headed for Saluda we > > raced ahead to the top of the hill. We waited and waited, finally the > > train came up, pulling only 5 cars. Another railfan there told us to > > head back down the hill to where the rest of the train was left. He said > > the locos will be back down to haul more car lots up the hill. When we > > got to the bottom of the hill and looked up to where the train would > > have to go, we understood then why only a few cars at a time. When the > > train crew came back down I yelled up to the > > brakeman-conductor-switchtender? asking him how many more trips he would > > have to make up and down the hill to get is short train over. "3 more" > > he yelled back. Watching those locos rev up and make a run was really > > something. Can you imagine that in steam days? Wow! > > Now back to Madison Hill. Was the operation similar to Saluda > > Grade?...Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > > > PRR Loco Pics: > > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > > > & > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > > and...... > > > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 13:52:47 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 (little off topic) From: EJ Caylor Norm and all, I have read that the main industry at the tail end of the Madison Branch was AEP, a power plant that got it's coal by barge but got plant equipment by rail. I have also heard that there were some grain silos as well. The engine you speak of, the Reuben Wells, was at Purdue for sometime. It now sits in the basement of the Indianapolis Children's Museum with a wooden PRR caboose. E.J. Caylor Webmaster: Central Indiana Railroad Information Network http://members.tripod.com/Caylorman/rail.htm ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 14:30:34 EST From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] R-50b Hey Yuze Gize... We have rounded the corner on the R50b(HO Scale). Let's as a group determine exactly how many paint scheme the R50b had including PC if at all. (seems I remember one in Altoona with Keystones only) We need to be as accurate as humanly posssible because the project is on the drawing board and headed for the tool maker. So, if we can, I would like to have the information ready when I go to Cocoa Beach next Tuesday to hand off to Walthers. I guess it is okay to now let you all know who is doing it. So,collectively I would like to see this group get it the way they want it. I will supply the color match chips for the lettering and car color. This has been a project that that has been in the works for a while, that Bruce Smith and I have been working on since last January, once we got the committment from Walthers, and Jerry has been made aware of it also. I have included Mike Brock's email address (in the Copy address) just in case there is some last minute developments that I should be a ill benifit far more than just us Pennsy Modelers as they went everywhere. TIA, Greg Martin PS... It will be some time before we see it on the shelves, be patient, and what do YUZE GIZE need next! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 (little off topic) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 13:40:32 -0600 As I recall the only movement that involved both engines was a power plant load piece of equipment. There was a picture in Trains at the time as it was the only known movement involving both engines. There may have been subsequent moves since then. Norm Bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "EJ Caylor" To: Cc: ; Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 12:52 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 (little off topic) > Norm and all, > I have read that the main industry at the tail end of the Madison > Branch was AEP, a power plant that got it's coal by barge but got plant > equipment by rail. I have also heard that there were some grain silos as > well. The engine you speak of, the Reuben Wells, was at Purdue for > sometime. It now sits in the basement of the Indianapolis Children's > Museum with a wooden PRR caboose. > > E.J. Caylor > Webmaster: Central Indiana Railroad Information Network > http://members.tripod.com/Caylorman/rail.htm > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 15:06:12 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] R-50b TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: (in part) > . . . . be patient, and what do YUZE GIZE need next! > Congo Cars from Walthers. I know the parlors are coming. Will they be pained in early Congo -(Tuscan letterboard and belt rail) or just Amtrak and PC and Scotchlight schemes :-(( I anxiously await the corridor coach, coffee shop, twin unit diner, all room parlor, and the Obs. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] R-50b Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 15:29:33 -0500 If Walther's is getting into smoothsides how about the Harbor series Bar Lounge! Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 12:48:06 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] R-50b Hi Greg, All, TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > PS... It will be some time before we see it on the shelves, be patient, and what do YUZE GIZE need next! Why, an N-Scale version, of course! Thanks, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 15:53:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 (little off topic) There's a Guinness book, "Rail Facts & Feats;" they call Madison Hill (5.89 %) the "steepest standard-gauge incline in the USA"; Saluda Hill (4.7 %) the "steepest main-line gradient in the USA". They say the world's steepest adhesion-worked incline is 9 % on the French electric line to Chamonix. Damn! I have ridden it, and nobody told me! I believe much or all of this uses third-rail power. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2002 15:54:02 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Congressional/ Senator Trains Try the diagrams on Rob Schoenberg's Website (http://prr.railfan.net/). All of the Congo cars are there. The floor plans usually provide the names or numbers of the cars. The Congo had coaches (P85E), parlors (PL85), an all-room parlor (PL85A), a twin unit diner-lounge/kitchen, a coffee shop car, and an observation. The Senator was similar but had a single unit diner and the interior of the obs was slightly different. The telephone was in the all-room parlor on the Congo, and in the Obs on the Senator. The "lounge" car which Walthers has just announced in HO is actually the Congo Parlor car. And I understand the coach is coming :-)) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Beth Caples (AKA Jim) wrote: > I need to find information on the Congo train sets built by Budd in the > early 1950's. What I need is car type and/ or class, car number , and > name given to each car. The PRR Color Guide does just enough to wet my > apatite but doesn't give me enough info. to go on. Any assistance would > be greatly appreciated! > Thanks, John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 15:54:24 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] R-50b In a message dated 1/3/02 2:42:23 PM Central Standard Time, cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: << If Walther's is getting into smoothsides how about the Harbor series Bar Lounge! >> I know this flies against the ready-to-run clean sweep of the hobby, but the AMB kit is not all that difficult. Biggest problem is fitting to the less than well-tooled ECW core kit. I will put up a picture with my new toy from Santa---a Nikon 885---as soon as I catch up on everything else. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 17:28:52 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] A request - reference checks in Rail Model Journal I'd like to ask a favor. I'm rechecking a table of "photos published vs. lettering schemes" for the upcoming Keystone article on PRR Covered Hopper Standard Lettering. As you can imagine, it's important that this data be accurate for the article. I've indexed a few photos from other peoples' magazines over the past several years, and am having trouble finding copies of RMJ to recheck. My citations are as follows: Phase Car class Number Source PK H40 #261445 RMJ Feb 1991, p52 SK1a H34 #256177 RMJ Oct 1994, p20 PK H45 #260869 RMJ May 1994, p51 ? H34C #257735 RMJ April 1995 p 15 ? H34B #257482 RMJ Nov 1995, p53 PK H42 #260061 RMJ Feb 1997, p6 If anyone has RMJ in their files, I'd appreciate verification of the above. In addition, if any "Return to When Empty" reporting marks are legible, that would be a real plus. Thank you very much for your assistance. A lot of people have put effort into this article over the last 3 years, and I'm hoping the result complements their work. Rick Tipton ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Tiny Wireless Camera under $80! Order Now! FREE VCR Commander! Click Here - Only 1 Day Left! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WoOlbB/7.PDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 17:28:52 EST Subject: [PRR] A request - reference checks in Rail Model Journal I'd like to ask a favor. I'm rechecking a table of "photos published vs. lettering schemes" for the upcoming Keystone article on PRR Covered Hopper Standard Lettering. As you can imagine, it's important that this data be accurate for the article. I've indexed a few photos from other peoples' magazines over the past several years, and am having trouble finding copies of RMJ to recheck. My citations are as follows: Phase Car class Number Source PK H40 #261445 RMJ Feb 1991, p52 SK1a H34 #256177 RMJ Oct 1994, p20 PK H45 #260869 RMJ May 1994, p51 ? H34C #257735 RMJ April 1995 p 15 ? H34B #257482 RMJ Nov 1995, p53 PK H42 #260061 RMJ Feb 1997, p6 If anyone has RMJ in their files, I'd appreciate verification of the above. In addition, if any "Return to When Empty" reporting marks are legible, that would be a real plus. Thank you very much for your assistance. A lot of people have put effort into this article over the last 3 years, and I'm hoping the result complements their work. Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "S J Lash" Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 (little off topic) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 18:31:07 -0500 Guys, Now you see why that english teacher in jr hi used to harp all the time about PROOF READING. I didn't. There should have been a question mark after Ohio in the original text reply to Ralph. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" To: "Norm Bell" ; "Prr-Talk" ; "Gary Mittner" Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 (little off topic) > Norm, > > When did Ohio take over the state of Indiana?? The Madison Branch has always > been entirely with in the State of Indiana, diverging off the > Indiananpolis-Louisville line at Columbus, IN. There was a story in > "Trains" recently about the first time the ex-NYC shops got hold of the > "cadillacs", as the Madison engines were called. Being unaware of why a > locomotive in Indiana would need dynamic brakes, they removed them. The > first trip down the "hill" after shopping was quite exciting, to say the > least! > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Norm Bell" > To: "Prr-Talk" ; "Gary Mittner" > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 12:49 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 (little off topic) > > > > Madison is nothing like Saluda and yet it is. Basically the Madison > incline > > is used to get cars out of the Ohio river valley up to the regular height > of > > the state of Ohio. I believe this is a branch and as such does not have > > through traffic or connections. Therefore train length is not what it is > on > > Saluda nor is the frequency. Madison is much shorter and steeper. Trains > > had an article on Slauda many years ago. It also includes some run away > > tracks that are purposely set for the run away direction that funnels > trains > > up hill through gravel to stop them. The only way that a train can get > > clearance is for the engineer to blow a horn signal to the operator of the > > switch that the train is under control. Only then does he throw the > switch > > so the train can continue on down the mountain. I don't believe Madison > has > > any run away protection. It is my understanding that there is (or was) an > > engine at Purdue University ( That is why they are the boilermakers) that > > was one of the steam engines used on this line. It is an 0-10-0 and > > drawings were in the centerspread of MR in the late 60's. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gary Mittner" > > To: "Will" > > Cc: ; > > Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 11:26 AM > > Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 (little off topic) > > > > > > > John, Will, List > > > > > > Not sure how the Pennsy did it on Madison Hill but I had the chance > > > to see the NS in operation on Saluda while on a road trip several years > > > ago. While treking down the highway we caught the odor of freshly cut > > > wood out the car windows. Low and behold a wood chip train coming out of > > > Spartansburg? was heading north. We started to follow the train (about > > > 18 cars or so and 3 locos). Knowing the train was headed for Saluda we > > > raced ahead to the top of the hill. We waited and waited, finally the > > > train came up, pulling only 5 cars. Another railfan there told us to > > > head back down the hill to where the rest of the train was left. He said > > > the locos will be back down to haul more car lots up the hill. When we > > > got to the bottom of the hill and looked up to where the train would > > > have to go, we understood then why only a few cars at a time. When the > > > train crew came back down I yelled up to the > > > brakeman-conductor-switchtender? asking him how many more trips he would > > > have to make up and down the hill to get is short train over. "3 more" > > > he yelled back. Watching those locos rev up and make a run was really > > > something. Can you imagine that in steam days? Wow! > > > Now back to Madison Hill. Was the operation similar to Saluda > > > Grade?...Gary > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > > > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > > > > > PRR Loco Pics: > > > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > > > > > & > > > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > > > and...... > > > > > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAJK4@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 20:18:12 EST Subject: [PRR] M1 --part1_91.16023b75.29665cd4_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To anyone who is interested, the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania moved the M1 yesterday. The M1 has not moved in atleast ten years and there was a lot of preparation done by the restoration shop crew to get this big engine to move once again. If anyone is interested in seeing the M1's newest "home" in the yard, it is located right along Gap Road. Walt --part1_91.16023b75.29665cd4_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To anyone who is interested, the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania moved the M1 yesterday.  The M1 has not moved in atleast ten years and there was a lot of preparation done by the restoration shop crew to get this big engine to move once again.  If anyone is interested in seeing the M1's newest "home" in the yard, it is located right along Gap Road.


Walt --part1_91.16023b75.29665cd4_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] X-29 steam line Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 20:29:15 -0500 Hi All, Does anyone have sketches or PRR drawings for the "L" shaped steam connection lines, preferably for the X-29 REA car? Any help would be most appreciated. Please reply to billlane@snip.net Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 20:29:15 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] X-29 steam line Hi All, Does anyone have sketches or PRR drawings for the "L" shaped steam connection lines, preferably for the X-29 REA car? Any help would be most appreciated. Please reply to billlane@snip.net Thanks Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 20:46:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] M1 In a message dated 1/3/02 5:31:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, WAJK4@aol.com writes: << To anyone who is interested, the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania moved the M1 yesterday. The M1 has not moved in atleast ten years and there was a lot of preparation done by the restoration shop crew to get this big engine to move once again. If anyone is interested in seeing the M1's newest "home" in the yard, it is located right along Gap Road. Walt >> Walt and list, This was not a light undertaking by any means!! Does anyone out there in PRR Talk saying goes "I've Gotta See This" ! ! ! Jon S. PRRT&HS 3079 FRM of PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 21:19:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] M1 Dear List Members- The reply to Walts message should read; Walt and list, This was not a light undertaking by any means!! Does anyone out there in PRR Talk land have any pictures of this move that they would be willing to share... or do you know of a source for any pictures... As the saying goes "I've Gotta See This" ! ! ! Jon S. PRRT&HS 3079 FRM of PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Roc83@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 21:35:52 EST Subject: [PRR] SD-7 -- Madison grade --part1_c9.1b26c22a.29666f08_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for all the great information. However, I am still not clear on the need of the rail washers. Did they somehow improve traction? Ralph --part1_c9.1b26c22a.29666f08_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for all the great information.  However, I am still not clear on the need of the rail washers.  Did they somehow improve traction?

Ralph --part1_c9.1b26c22a.29666f08_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 -- Madison grade Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 22:21:24 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C194A4.FA9990C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ralph, Wet leaves on the rails can be extremely slippery. Sand would not get = the leaves off the rails, only the rail washers would. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Roc83@aol.com=20 To: prr-talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 9:35 PM Subject: [PRR] SD-7 -- Madison grade Thanks for all the great information. However, I am still not clear = on the need of the rail washers. Did they somehow improve traction? Ralph=20 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C194A4.FA9990C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ralph,
 
Wet leaves on the rails can be extremely slippery. = Sand would=20 not get the leaves off the rails, only the rail washers = would.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Roc83@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, January 03, = 2002 9:35=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] SD-7 -- Madison=20 grade

Thanks for all the great information.  = However, I am=20 still not clear on the need of the rail washers.  Did they = somehow=20 improve traction?

Ralph = ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C194A4.FA9990C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 22:22:05 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] SD-7 -- Madison grade --part1_128.a4c50b0.296679dd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ralph, they were used to wash leaves off the rail. This line has a canopy of trees over it and I'm sure that during the fall the leaves would have been almost like grease on the rails. Todd Horton --part1_128.a4c50b0.296679dd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ralph, they were used to wash leaves off the rail. This line has a canopy of trees over it and I'm sure that during the fall the leaves would have been almost like grease on the rails. Todd Horton --part1_128.a4c50b0.296679dd_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] R-50b Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2002 22:16:00 -0600 Greg--That is really great news. Really nice being involved on the front end of a model project. Maybe we won't have to put so much effort into fixing what didn't get done right. Two requests--(1) Can you match--puleeeeze--the car color to one of the popular paint companies rendition of Tuscan? And (2), can you get Walthers to produce a whole bunch of extra trucks? They will solve the problems a lot of folks have with Eastern Car Works. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 00:08:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] R-50b In a message dated 1/4/02 12:02:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, mfranke@cox.rr.com writes: << HO stands for Horribly Oversized >> "O" scalers believe that it stands for "How Ordinary" :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAJK4@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 06:59:50 EST Subject: [PRR] Steep Grades --part1_130.72b95c6.2966f336_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another steep grade the Pennsy had was located in Lancaster. =A0If I am=20 correct, I believe that it connected the PRR yard with the Reading Yard.=20= =A0I=20 was informed that from railhead to railhead was a difference of twenty-eight= =20 feet in one block!!! =A0This bridge no longer exists. =A0Apparently the PRR=20= used=20 a B6 to make this climb, and it couldn't haul any more than three or four=20 cars at a time. =A0I must thank one of the volunteers at the Railroad Museum= of=20 PA for providing me with this information. =A0If anyone has a picture of thi= s=20 bridge I would love to see one. Walt --part1_130.72b95c6.2966f336_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Another steep grade the P= ennsy had was located in Lancaster. =A0If I am correct, I believe that it co= nnected the PRR yard with the Reading Yard. =A0I was informed that from rail= head to railhead was a difference of twenty-eight feet in one block!!! =A0Th= is bridge no longer exists. =A0Apparently the PRR used a B6 to make this cli= mb, and it couldn't haul any more than three or four cars at a time. =A0I mu= st thank one of the volunteers at the Railroad Museum of PA for providing me= with this information. =A0If anyone has a picture of this bridge I would lo= ve to see one.


Walt --part1_130.72b95c6.2966f336_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 09:14:01 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Harbor Lounge (was: [PRR] R-50b) Bob, Laser Horizons also makes the sides for that car. (Jerry is a dealer for the line - I'm sure he doesn't mind the plug ;-) ) I have built cars from both mfr's and prefer the LH products. I have built a 10-6 from AMB and am glad I have it. It is one of the few kits for a 4140 floor plan. However, it is not without its difficulties. I find the clear plastic sides of the AMB kit is difficult to make opaque. No amount of sprayed paint seems to do the job. The car can not be lit without "glowing" and even without lights, the transparency of the sides is difficult to conceal. The other problem arises from the stainless steel window frames so prominent on PRR Cars. Painting this makes all the difference in the final appearance of a PRR streamliner. On the AMB car it will require you to remove some of the pre-applied masks , paint the car, and re-apply the masks. On the LH cars you must create you own masks for the window frames, but the remove-reapply problem doesn't exist because there is no glazing to protect when painting. BTW I am wrapping up two P70GSRs from LH and am very pleased with the result. Its a common PRR coach not available anywhere else. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/3/02 2:42:23 PM Central Standard Time, > cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: > > << If Walther's is getting into smoothsides how about the Harbor series Bar > Lounge! >> > > I know this flies against the ready-to-run clean sweep of the hobby, but the > AMB kit is not all that difficult. Biggest problem is fitting to the less > than well-tooled ECW core kit. I will put up a picture with my new toy from > Santa---a Nikon 885---as soon as I catch up on everything else. > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] R-50b Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:13:32 +0000 Steve Hoxie wrote: >Two requests--(1) Can you match--puleeeeze--the car color to one of the >popular paint companies rendition of Tuscan? > >And (2), can you get Walthers to produce a whole bunch of extra trucks? >They will solve the problems a lot of folks have with Eastern Car Works. Excellant requests(especially #2) I second! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 10:48:57 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Interchange Cars - MP 10-6 "Pacific" Series From: Jerry Britton I fully expect Andy Miller to answer this, but to the list... The "Penn Texas" carried four interchange cars. Among them were two 10-6 cars built by ACF to Pullman Plan 9008 in MP "Eagle" livery. Plan 9008 differs from any the PRR had, and I am trying to find appropriate passenger car sides to build a model...N scale no less! Does anyone know what other railroads used this car? I've struck out with the usual model side manufacturers: Laser Horizons, Brass Car Sides, Union Station Products, Des Plaines Hobbies (which has a Budd "Pacific ___" 10-6), and Marshall Shops (which does all the other MP "Eagle" cars). If nobody knows of sides, does anyone know of published drawings? A long time ago somebody mentioned a "Mainline Modeler" issue, but they were not able to provide a reference to what issue. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Interchange Cars - MP 10-6 "Pacific" Series Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 10:19:13 -0600 One of Ball's books, I think it is America's Colroful Railroads, has some color pictures of one of the Mopac Eagles. It is a sharp color scheme ( next to PRR of course). They had some very wide white trim pieces below the windows. You might check with Bobbie Hall's Hobby shop in Dallas if it is still in business. She imported some Mopac stuff over the years in brass. Norm Bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 9:48 AM Subject: [PRR] Interchange Cars - MP 10-6 "Pacific" Series > I fully expect Andy Miller to answer this, but to the list... > > The "Penn Texas" carried four interchange cars. Among them were two 10-6 > cars built by ACF to Pullman Plan 9008 in MP "Eagle" livery. > > Plan 9008 differs from any the PRR had, and I am trying to find appropriate > passenger car sides to build a model...N scale no less! > > Does anyone know what other railroads used this car? > > I've struck out with the usual model side manufacturers: Laser Horizons, > Brass Car Sides, Union Station Products, Des Plaines Hobbies (which has a > Budd "Pacific ___" 10-6), and Marshall Shops (which does all the other MP > "Eagle" cars). > > If nobody knows of sides, does anyone know of published drawings? A long > time ago somebody mentioned a "Mainline Modeler" issue, but they were not > able to provide a reference to what issue. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 11:24:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Interchange Cars - MP 10-6 "Pacific" Series From: Jerry Britton On 1/4/02 11:19 AM, Norm Bell (nbell@repco.com) wrote: > One of Ball's books, I think it is America's Colroful Railroads, has some > color pictures of one of the Mopac Eagles. It is a sharp color scheme ( > next to PRR of course). They had some very wide white trim pieces below the > windows. You might check with Bobbie Hall's Hobby shop in Dallas if it is > still in business. She imported some Mopac stuff over the years in brass. I've heard of Bobbie Hall's. It was just in the news that the shop closed after 53 (or so) years! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TJ LInk" Subject: [PRR] Fw: UGLY VIRUS: PLEASE CHECK YOUR COMPUTER Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:30:46 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C19513.40703FE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Janet Bristol=20 To: Wendy Rex ; TJ LInk ; Sonia Waugh ; scolvin@adelphia.net ; Rob = Leffler ; RCAndrsn@aol.com ; Michael Burkhart ; MEWLeffler@aol.com ; = lori eberle ; LARAJHG@aol.com ; kml444 ; kml444 ; julie fultz ; Judy = Bordner ; John Lillich ; Jan Blum ; Gannon, Linda (CMG-SF) ; = esupport@apcc.com ; Ellen Limes ; DrPhysio@aol.com ; DARLA OELMANN ; = Cindy Bok ; chefvick@aol.com ; Carpede@aol.com ; Brian Trotta ; BORDNER, = JUDY ; bkltd@juno.com ; Antoinette Lejano ; Ann Lane ; = amynkendall@juno.com=20 Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 10:06 AM Subject: Fw: UGLY VIRUS: PLEASE CHECK YOUR COMPUTER =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Clutterchasers@cs.com=20 To: Estateorganizing@cs.com ; jwbristol@prodigy.net ; = Clutterchasers@cs.com ; bgeesin@earthlink.net ; getorgnow@wi.rr.com ; = WeMeanBusiness@charlestonchamber.org ; MEWLeffler@aol.com ; = lesliebt@veriomail.com ; leadershipteam@napo.net ; = OrganizerPro@clutter-solutions.comOrganizerPro@clutter-solut ; = overhall@chesapeake.net ; OrganizerPro@clutter-solutions.com=20 Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 11:01 PM Subject: UGLY VIRUS: PLEASE CHECK YOUR COMPUTER IMPORTANT....ACT IMMEDIATELY: THERE MAYBE A VIRUS ON YOUR MACHINE THAT = WAS SEND TO THRU A COMPANY THAT I REPRESENT...PLEASE FOLLOW THE = DIRECTIONS BELOW TO AVOID ANY PROBLEMS=20 Dear All:=20 I just checked my computer and found out that an ugly Virus was in my = computer. The person who sent it said their PC was infected and since I = am in their address book, it has probably spread to my computer. By = following the instructions I was able to delete the virus. The bad news = is that you probably have it, as you are in my address book.=20 IT HAS BEEN CONFIRMED TO ME THAT I AM SPREADING THIS. ACT NOW!=20 This virus lies dormant for 14 days and then kills your hard drive. = Here is what to do. If you follow the instructions and then see that = you have the virus, you need to send a similar e-mail to everyone in = your address book. Remove the virus by following these steps:=20 1. Go to 'start' then to 'find' or 'search'.=20 2. In the 'search for files or folders' type sulfnbk.exe - this is the = name of the virus.=20 3. In the 'look in' section, make sure you are searching the C drive.=20 4. Hit 'search' or 'find'.=20 5. If your search finds this file, it will be an ugly blackish icon = that will have the name sulfnbk.exe. DO NOT OPEN IT.=20 6. Right click on the file -- go down to 'delete' and left click.=20 7. You will be asked if you want to send the file to the Recycling bin = -- say 'yes'.=20 8. Go to your desktop (where all your icons are) and right click on = the recycle bin and either manually delete the sulfnbk.exe program or = empty the entire bin.=20 9. If you found this virus on your system, send this to all in your = address book because this is how it is transferred.=20 10. If it does not show up on your first 'search' try a 'new search'.=20 Sorry for the trouble and apologies for unwittingly 'infecting' you = should it have been passed on to you.=20 From: Janet Bristol We did find the virus and hopefully we avoided any problems. This is = too important to overlook and not the nicest way to start out the new = year. However, it is urgent that you take immediate action. ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C19513.40703FE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Janet=20 Bristol
To: Wendy=20 Rex ; TJ LInk ;=20 Sonia = Waugh ;=20 scolvin@adelphia.net ; Rob Leffler = ; RCAndrsn@aol.com ; Michael=20 Burkhart ; MEWLeffler@aol.com ; lori=20 eberle ; LARAJHG@aol.com ; kml444 ; kml444 ; julie fultz = ; Judy = Bordner ;=20 John Lillich ; Jan = Blum ; Gannon, = Linda=20 (CMG-SF) ; esupport@apcc.com ; Ellen=20 Limes ; DrPhysio@aol.com ; DARLA OELMANN ; Cindy Bok ; chefvick@aol.com ; Carpede@aol.com ; Brian = Trotta ;=20 BORDNER,=20 JUDY ; bkltd@juno.com ; Antoinette Lejano ; Ann=20 Lane ; amynkendall@juno.com
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 10:06 AM
Subject: Fw: UGLY VIRUS: PLEASE CHECK YOUR = COMPUTER

 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Clutterchasers@cs.com
To: Estateorganizing@cs.com ; jwbristol@prodigy.net ; Clutterchasers@cs.com ; bgeesin@earthlink.net ; getorgnow@wi.rr.com ; WeMeanBusiness@charlestoncha= mber.org=20 ; MEWLeffler@aol.com ; lesliebt@veriomail.com ; leadershipteam@napo.net ; Orga= nizerPro@clutter-solutions.comOrganizerPro@clutter-solut=20 ; overhall@chesapeake.net ; OrganizerPro@clutter-solutions= .com=20
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 11:01 PM
Subject: UGLY VIRUS: PLEASE CHECK YOUR = COMPUTER
IMPORTANT....ACT IMMEDIATELY: THERE MAYBE A VIRUS ON = YOUR=20 MACHINE THAT WAS SEND TO THRU A COMPANY THAT I REPRESENT...PLEASE = FOLLOW THE=20 DIRECTIONS BELOW TO AVOID ANY PROBLEMS

Dear All: =

I just checked=20 my computer and found out that an ugly Virus was in my computer. =  The=20 person who sent it said their PC was infected and since I am in their = address=20 book, it has probably spread to my computer.  By following the=20 instructions I was able to delete the virus.  The bad news is = that you=20 probably have it, as you are in my address book.

IT HAS BEEN = CONFIRMED=20 TO ME THAT I AM SPREADING THIS.  ACT NOW!

This = virus lies=20 dormant for 14 days and then kills your hard drive.  Here is what = to do.=20  If you follow the instructions and then see that you have the = virus, you=20 need to send a similar e-mail to everyone in your address book. =  Remove=20 the virus by following these steps:

1. Go to 'start' then to = 'find' or=20 'search'.
2. In the 'search for files or folders' type = sulfnbk.exe=20 - this is the name of the virus.
3. In the 'look in' section, make = sure=20 you are searching the C drive.
4. Hit 'search' or 'find'.
5. = If your=20 search finds this file, it will be an ugly blackish icon that will = have the=20 name sulfnbk.exe. DO NOT OPEN IT.
6. Right = click on=20 the file -- go down to 'delete' and left click.
7. You will be = asked if=20 you want to send the file to the Recycling bin -- say 'yes'.
8. Go = to your=20 desktop (where all your icons are) and right click on the recycle bin = and=20 either manually delete the sulfnbk.exe program or empty the entire = bin.
9.=20 If you found this virus on your system, send this to all in your = address=20 book because this is how it is transferred.
10. If it does not = show up=20 on your first 'search' try a 'new search'.

Sorry for the trouble and apologies for unwittingly = 'infecting'=20 you should it have been passed on to you.

From:  Janet=20 Bristol

We did find the virus and hopefully we avoided any = problems.=20  This is too important to overlook and not the nicest way to = start out=20 the new year.  However, it is urgent that you take immediate=20 action.
 ------=_NextPart_000_000A_01C19513.40703FE0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:44:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: UGLY VIRUS: PLEASE CHECK YOUR COMPUTER From: Roger P Hensley This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_2b53.58d3.68e8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a hoax. Check Norton/Symantec site for details. The file is a part of Windows. On Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:30:46 -0500 "TJ LInk" writes: 1. Go to 'start' then to 'find' or 'search'. 2. In the 'search for files or folders' type sulfnbk.exe - this is the name of the virus. Roger Hensley === East Central Indiana HO Railroad === === http://cid.railfan.net/eci_new.html === ----__JNP_000_2b53.58d3.68e8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is a hoax. Check Norton/Symantec site for details. The
file is a part of Windows.
 
On Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:30:46 -0500 "TJ LInk" <chef@richnet.net> writes:

1. Go to 'start' = then to=20 'find' or 'search'.
2. In the 'search for files or folders' type=20 sulfnbk.exe - this is the name of the virus.=20

Roger Hensley

=3D=3D=3D = East Central=20 Indiana HO Railroad =3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D http://cid.railfan.net/eci_new.= html=20 =3D=3D=3D
----__JNP_000_2b53.58d3.68e8-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:51:41 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: UGLY VIRUS: PLEASE CHECK YOUR COMPUTER This is a hoax. > 2. In the 'search for files or folders' type sulfnbk.exe - this is the name of the virus. Don't delete this, this is really part of your windows installation ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 12:00:14 -0500 Subject: [PRR] LISTMASTER on Virus Warnings From: Jerry Britton Oh great, another damned virus warning/hoax reported on the list (PRR-talk). Same song, another verse. The way the DSOP.COM lists are configured, there are no known viruses that can propagate. I participate in an FBI group called InfraGard that is on top of such matters, plus I visit three related threat sites on a daily basis (SARC, NIPC, and CERT). If you wish to be advised of new threats as they are discovered, I urge you to visit the following sites regularly: http://www.cert.org/ http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/ http://www.nipc.gov/ Some even have mailing lists you can join. DO NOT -- I repeat, DO NOT -- report viruses via the list. If you are concerned, contact listmaster@dsop.com directly. Future offenders are subject to eviction from the DSOP.COM lists without warning. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmaster ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: UGLY VIRUS: PLEASE CHECK YOUR COMPUTER Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 11:00:53 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0097_01C1950F.14312E20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Type: Hoax=20 Description: The following hoax email was first reported in Brazil, and the original = email was in Portuguese. Other language versions are in circulation. = Currently, the English language versions are most common. CAUTIONS:=20 a.. This particular email message is a hoax. The file that is = mentioned in the hoax, however, Sulfnbk.exe, is a Microsoft Windows = 95/98/Me utility that is used to restore long file names, and like any = .exe file, it can be infected by a virus that targets .exe files. NOTE: The Sulfnbk.exe file is not required to run Windows. It may be = necessary if you need to restore long file names if the file names = become corrupted. For additional information, read the Microsoft = Knowledge Base article Description of Sulfnbk.exe and How to Replace the = Program File (Q301316)=20 b.. The virus/worm W32.Magistr.24876@mm can arrive as an attachment = named Sulfnbk.exe. The Sulfnbk.exe file used by Windows is located by = default in the C:\Windows\Command folder. NOTE: The C:\Windows\Command folder is the usual default location for = this file. It is possible that if you have a custom installation, or a = special configuration that was installed by the computer manufacturer, = the file could be in a different location. If the file is located in any other folder (except as noted), or = arrives as an attachment to a email message, then it is possible that = the file is infected. In this case, if a scan with the latest virus = definitions and with NAV set to scan all files does not detect the file = as being infected, quarantine and submit the file to SARC for analysis = by following the instructions in the document How to submit a file to = SARC using Scan and Deliver.=20 c.. If you have deleted the Sulfnbk.exe file from the = C:\Windows\Command folder and want to know how to restore the file, see = the How to restore the Sulfnbk.exe file section at the end of this = document. English versions NOTE: Several versions are shown, with the most recent ones shown first. = Many more have been reported. All have the same basic theme. Version 1 Hello! I just got this letter from my friend and yes I had the virus as = well please follow the directions to see if you have the virus and then = follow the directions to get rid of it. Like my friend I am sorry that I = passed it along as well.=20 Dear All: We received a virus on a message. I followed the instructions = below and found that it had been spread to our computer. I followed the = instructions and located the virus and was able to delete it. The bad = news is that you probably have it, as you are in My Address book! More = bad news is that my anti virus program did not detect this virus. The = virus lies dormant for 14 days and then "kills" your hard drive. Here is what to do. If you follow the instructions and then see that you = have the virus, you need to send a similar e-mail to everyone in your = address book. Remove the virus by following these steps: 1. Go to "Start." Then to "Find" or "Search". 2. In the "Search for files or folders" type sulfnbk.exe -- this is the = name of the virus. 3. In the "Look in" section, make sure you are searching Drive C. 4. Hit "Search" or "Find". 5. If your search finds this file, it will be an ugly blackish icon that = will have the name sulfnbk.exe. DO NOT OPEN IT! If it does not show up = on your first "Search", try a "New Search." 6. Right click on the file -- go down to "Delete" and left click.=20 7. You will be asked if you want to send the file to the Recycling Bin = -- say "Yes". 8. Go to your Desktop (where all your icons are) and right click on the = Recycle Bin and either manually delete the sulfnbk.exe program or empty the entire bin. 9. If you found the virus on your system, send this or a similar e-mail = to all in your address book because this is how it is transferred. Sorry for the trouble and my apologies for having unwittingly "infected" = you. You'll want to check for this virus again for the next couple days until everyone in your address book has seen it and deleted it, = otherwise, being in their address book, your PC will get infected all over again so don't forget to check ----- Original Message -----=20 From: TJ LInk=20 To: Adam and Jennifer Link ; Bo Cunningham ; Dan Bute ; Don Narris ; = Earl M. ; Harry Fitch ; Jerry Britton ; John A Sutter ; Mike Wilcox ; = parkvarieties ; PRR-Talk ; Reva Tanis ; RickTipton@AOL.COM ; Stephen = Marek ; Toy Train Heaven ; William J. Ayers=20 Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 10:30 AM Subject: [PRR] Fw: UGLY VIRUS: PLEASE CHECK YOUR COMPUTER ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Janet Bristol=20 To: Wendy Rex ; TJ LInk ; Sonia Waugh ; scolvin@adelphia.net ; Rob = Leffler ; RCAndrsn@aol.com ; Michael Burkhart ; MEWLeffler@aol.com ; = lori eberle ; LARAJHG@aol.com ; kml444 ; kml444 ; julie fultz ; Judy = Bordner ; John Lillich ; Jan Blum ; Gannon, Linda (CMG-SF) ; = esupport@apcc.com ; Ellen Limes ; DrPhysio@aol.com ; DARLA OELMANN ; = Cindy Bok ; chefvick@aol.com ; Carpede@aol.com ; Brian Trotta ; BORDNER, = JUDY ; bkltd@juno.com ; Antoinette Lejano ; Ann Lane ; = amynkendall@juno.com=20 Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 10:06 AM Subject: Fw: UGLY VIRUS: PLEASE CHECK YOUR COMPUTER ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Clutterchasers@cs.com=20 To: Estateorganizing@cs.com ; jwbristol@prodigy.net ; = Clutterchasers@cs.com ; bgeesin@earthlink.net ; getorgnow@wi.rr.com ; = WeMeanBusiness@charlestonchamber.org ; MEWLeffler@aol.com ; = lesliebt@veriomail.com ; leadershipteam@napo.net ; = OrganizerPro@clutter-solutions.comOrganizerPro@clutter-solut ; = overhall@chesapeake.net ; OrganizerPro@clutter-solutions.com=20 Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 11:01 PM Subject: UGLY VIRUS: PLEASE CHECK YOUR COMPUTER IMPORTANT....ACT IMMEDIATELY: THERE MAYBE A VIRUS ON YOUR MACHINE = THAT WAS SEND TO THRU A COMPANY THAT I REPRESENT...PLEASE FOLLOW THE = DIRECTIONS BELOW TO AVOID ANY PROBLEMS=20 Dear All:=20 I just checked my computer and found out that an ugly Virus was in = my computer. The person who sent it said their PC was infected and = since I am in their address book, it has probably spread to my computer. = By following the instructions I was able to delete the virus. The bad = news is that you probably have it, as you are in my address book.=20 IT HAS BEEN CONFIRMED TO ME THAT I AM SPREADING THIS. ACT NOW!=20 This virus lies dormant for 14 days and then kills your hard drive. = Here is what to do. If you follow the instructions and then see that = you have the virus, you need to send a similar e-mail to everyone in = your address book. Remove the virus by following these steps:=20 1. Go to 'start' then to 'find' or 'search'.=20 2. In the 'search for files or folders' type sulfnbk.exe - this is = the name of the virus.=20 3. In the 'look in' section, make sure you are searching the C = drive.=20 4. Hit 'search' or 'find'.=20 5. If your search finds this file, it will be an ugly blackish icon = that will have the name sulfnbk.exe. DO NOT OPEN IT.=20 6. Right click on the file -- go down to 'delete' and left click.=20 7. You will be asked if you want to send the file to the Recycling = bin -- say 'yes'.=20 8. Go to your desktop (where all your icons are) and right click on = the recycle bin and either manually delete the sulfnbk.exe program or = empty the entire bin.=20 9. If you found this virus on your system, send this to all in your = address book because this is how it is transferred.=20 10. If it does not show up on your first 'search' try a 'new = search'.=20 Sorry for the trouble and apologies for unwittingly 'infecting' you = should it have been passed on to you.=20 From: Janet Bristol We did find the virus and hopefully we avoided any problems. This = is too important to overlook and not the nicest way to start out the new = year. However, it is urgent that you take immediate action. ------=_NextPart_000_0097_01C1950F.14312E20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Type: Hoa= x

Description:

The following hoax email was first reported in Brazil, and the = original email=20 was in Portuguese. Other language versions are in circulation. = Currently, the=20 English language versions are most common.


CAUTIONS:=20

  • This particular email message is a hoax. The file that is = mentioned in the=20 hoax, however, Sulfnbk.exe, is a Microsoft Windows 95/98/Me utility = that is=20 used to restore long file names, and like any .exe file, it can be = infected by=20 a virus that targets .exe files.

    NOTE: The Sulfnbk.exe = file is=20 not required to run Windows. It may be necessary if you need to = restore long=20 file names if the file names become corrupted. For additional = information,=20 read the Microsoft Knowledge Base article Description of Sulfnbk.exe and How to Replace the = Program File=20 (Q301316)
  • The virus/worm W32.Magistr.24876@mm can arrive as an = attachment=20 named Sulfnbk.exe. The Sulfnbk.exe file used by Windows is located by = default=20 in the C:\Windows\Command folder.

    NOTE: The = C:\Windows\Command=20 folder is the usual default location for this file. It is possible = that if you=20 have a custom installation, or a special configuration that was = installed by=20 the computer manufacturer, the file could be in a different=20 location.

    If the file is located in any other folder (except as = noted),=20 or arrives as an attachment to a email message, then it is possible = that the=20 file is infected. In this case, if a scan with the latest virus = definitions=20 and with NAV set to scan all files does not detect the file as being = infected,=20 quarantine and submit the file to SARC for analysis by following the=20 instructions in the document How to submit a file to SARC using Scan and = Deliver    .=20

  • If you have deleted the Sulfnbk.exe file from the = C:\Windows\Command=20 folder and want to know how to restore the file, see the How to = restore the=20 Sulfnbk.exe file section at the end of this = document.

English versions

NOTE: Several = versions are=20 shown, with the most recent ones shown first. Many more have been = reported. All=20 have the same basic theme.

Version 1
Hello! I just got = this=20 letter from my friend and yes I had the virus as well please follow the=20 directions to see if you have the virus and then follow the directions = to get=20 rid of it. Like my friend I am sorry that I passed it along as well.=20

Dear All: We received a virus on a message. I followed the = instructions=20 below and found that it had been spread to our computer. I followed the=20 instructions and located the virus and was able to delete it. The bad = news is=20 that you probably have it, as you are in My Address book! More bad news = is that=20 my anti virus program did not detect this virus. The virus lies dormant = for 14=20 days and then "kills" your hard drive.

Here is what to do. If you = follow=20 the instructions and then see that you have the virus, you need to send = a=20 similar e-mail to everyone in your address book.

Remove the virus = by=20 following these steps:
1. Go to "Start." Then to "Find" or = "Search".
2. In=20 the "Search for files or folders" type sulfnbk.exe -- this is the name = of the=20 virus.
3. In the "Look in" section, make sure you are searching Drive = C.
4. Hit "Search" or "Find".
5. If your search finds this file, = it will=20 be an ugly blackish icon that will have the name sulfnbk.exe. DO NOT = OPEN IT! If=20 it does not show up on your first "Search", try a "New Search."
6. = Right=20 click on the file -- go down to "Delete" and left click.
7. You will = be=20 asked if you want to send the file to the Recycling Bin -- say = "Yes".
8. Go=20 to your Desktop (where all your icons are) and right click on the = Recycle Bin=20 and either manually delete the sulfnbk.exe program or empty
the = entire=20 bin.
9. If you found the virus on your system, send this or a similar = e-mail=20 to all in your address book because this is how it is = transferred.

Sorry=20 for the trouble and my apologies for having unwittingly "infected" you. = You'll=20 want to check for this virus again for the next couple days
until = everyone in=20 your address book has seen it and deleted it, otherwise, being in their = address=20 book, your PC will get infected all
over again so don't forget to = check
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 TJ = LInk
To: Adam and Jennifer Link ; Bo=20 Cunningham ; Dan Bute ; Don Narris ; Earl M. ; Harry Fitch ; Jerry Britton ; John A Sutter ; Mike Wilcox ; parkvarieties ; PRR-Talk ; Reva = Tanis ;=20 RickTipton@AOL.COM ; Stephen=20 Marek ; Toy Train Heaven ; William J. = Ayers=20
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 = 10:30=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] Fw: UGLY VIRUS: = PLEASE=20 CHECK YOUR COMPUTER

 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Janet=20 Bristol
To: Wendy Rex ; TJ LInk ; Sonia Waugh ; scolvin@adelphia.net ; Rob = Leffler ; RCAndrsn@aol.com ;=20 Michael=20 Burkhart ; MEWLeffler@aol.com ; lori=20 eberle ; LARAJHG@aol.com ; kml444 ; kml444 ; julie = fultz ; Judy = Bordner ;=20 John Lillich ; Jan = Blum ;=20 Gannon, Linda=20 (CMG-SF) ; esupport@apcc.com ; Ellen=20 Limes ; DrPhysio@aol.com ; DARLA = OELMANN ; Cindy Bok ; chefvick@aol.com ;=20 Carpede@aol.com ;=20 Brian=20 Trotta ; BORDNER, JUDY ; bkltd@juno.com ; Antoinette = Lejano ;=20 Ann=20 Lane ; amynkendall@juno.com
Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 10:06 AM
Subject: Fw: UGLY VIRUS: PLEASE CHECK YOUR = COMPUTER

 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Clutterchasers@cs.com
To: Estateorganizing@cs.com ; = jwbristol@prodigy.net ; Clutterchasers@cs.com ; bgeesin@earthlink.net ; getorgnow@wi.rr.com ; WeMeanBusiness@charl= estonchamber.org=20 ; MEWLeffler@aol.com ; lesliebt@veriomail.com ; leadershipteam@napo.net ; = OrganizerPro@clutter-solutions.comOrganizerPro@clutter-solut=20 ; overhall@chesapeake.net ; = OrganizerPro@clutter-s= olutions.com=20
Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 11:01 PM
Subject: UGLY VIRUS: PLEASE CHECK YOUR = COMPUTER
IMPORTANT....ACT IMMEDIATELY: THERE MAYBE A VIRUS ON = YOUR=20 MACHINE THAT WAS SEND TO THRU A COMPANY THAT I REPRESENT...PLEASE = FOLLOW THE=20 DIRECTIONS BELOW TO AVOID ANY PROBLEMS =

Dear All: =

I just=20 checked my computer and found out that an ugly Virus was in my = computer.=20  The person who sent it said their PC was infected and since I = am in=20 their address book, it has probably spread to my computer.  By=20 following the instructions I was able to delete the virus.  The = bad=20 news is that you probably have it, as you are in my address book. =

IT=20 HAS BEEN CONFIRMED TO ME THAT I AM SPREADING THIS.  ACT = NOW!=20

This virus lies dormant for 14 days and then kills your hard = drive.=20  Here is what to do.  If you follow the instructions and = then see=20 that you have the virus, you need to send a similar e-mail to = everyone in=20 your address book.  Remove the virus by following these steps:=20

1. Go to 'start' then to 'find' or 'search'.
2. In the = 'search=20 for files or folders' type sulfnbk.exe - this is the name of = the=20 virus.
3. In the 'look in' section, make sure you are searching = the C=20 drive.
4. Hit 'search' or 'find'.
5. If your search finds = this file,=20 it will be an ugly blackish icon that will have the name = sulfnbk.exe.=20 DO NOT OPEN IT.
6. Right click on the file -- go = down to=20 'delete' and left click.
7. You will be asked if you want to = send the=20 file to the Recycling bin -- say 'yes'.
8. Go to your desktop = (where all=20 your icons are) and right click on the recycle bin and either = manually=20 delete the sulfnbk.exe program or empty the entire bin.
9. If = you=20 found this virus on your system, send this to all in your address = book=20 because this is how it is transferred.
10. If it does not = show up on=20 your first 'search' try a 'new search'.

Sorry for the trouble and apologies for unwittingly = 'infecting'=20 you should it have been passed on to you.

From:  Janet Bristol

We did find the virus and hopefully we avoided any = problems.=20  This is too important to overlook and not the nicest way to = start out=20 the new year.  However, it is urgent that you take immediate=20 action.
 ------=_NextPart_000_0097_01C1950F.14312E20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 12:03:47 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] R-50b The problem with the trucks is that the R50b's had solid bearings and the trucks for the P70s et al had roller bearings. But I concur that a good PRR roller bearing truck is sorely needed. The ECW truck look nice but are very hard to make work right. Would that the Bachmann truck could be bought - siiiigh :-((( Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Ted Andrews wrote: > Steve Hoxie wrote: > > >Two requests--(1) Can you match--puleeeeze--the car color to one of the > >popular paint companies rendition of Tuscan? > > > >And (2), can you get Walthers to produce a whole bunch of extra trucks? > >They will solve the problems a lot of folks have with Eastern Car Works. > > Excellant requests(especially #2) I second! > > Ted Andrews > Carmel, Indiana > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 12:33:18 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Interchange Cars - MP 10-6 "Pacific" Series All right Jerry, you shamed me into displaying my ignorance. AFAIK the 9008s were the 10-6 plan which ACF built for the PRR. They are in fact, the car which AHM/IHC/Rivarossi makes in HO. As such it is the most prolific 10-6 in HO. Perhaps tat is why no one else makes sides for them. The most common 10-6 in the real world was probably the PS plan 4140. The difference is primarily how the beds are laid out in the bedrooms. A brief clinic (on-line version) on 10-6 identification. 4140s have all BRs with transverse beds. 9008s have BRs with alternating transverse and longitudinal bed. ACF built 9008s have evenly spaced BR windows (look at the Rivarossi car). PS built 10-6s have the BR windows noticeably paired. On 4140's the pairs are evenly spaced, on PS 9008s the pairs are unevenly spaced. Plans for the riveted sides ACF 9008 (not all 9008 were riveted), which includes the MP cars and PRR cars Buffalo Rapids and , appeared in MR about five years ago. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > I fully expect Andy Miller to answer this, but to the list... > > The "Penn Texas" carried four interchange cars. Among them were two 10-6 > cars built by ACF to Pullman Plan 9008 in MP "Eagle" livery. > > Plan 9008 differs from any the PRR had, and I am trying to find appropriate > passenger car sides to build a model...N scale no less! > > Does anyone know what other railroads used this car? > > I've struck out with the usual model side manufacturers: Laser Horizons, > Brass Car Sides, Union Station Products, Des Plaines Hobbies (which has a > Budd "Pacific ___" 10-6), and Marshall Shops (which does all the other MP > "Eagle" cars). > > If nobody knows of sides, does anyone know of published drawings? A long > time ago somebody mentioned a "Mainline Modeler" issue, but they were not > able to provide a reference to what issue. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ThreeButchers@cs.com Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 12:55:39 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR / Pullman Plan 9008 10/6 Sleepers Subject: Interchange Cars - MP 10-6 "Pacific" Series From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 10:48:57 -0500 I fully expect Andy Miller to answer this, but to the list... The "Penn Texas" carried four interchange cars. Among them were two 10-6 cars built by ACF to Pullman Plan 9008 in MP "Eagle" livery. Plan 9008 differs from any the PRR had, and I am trying to find appropriate passenger car sides to build a model...N scale no less! Does anyone know what other railroads used this car? I've struck out with the usual model side manufacturers: Laser Horizons, Brass Car Sides, Union Station Products, Des Plaines Hobbies (which has a Budd "Pacific ___" 10-6), and Marshall Shops (which does all the other MP "Eagle" cars). If nobody knows of sides, does anyone know of published drawings? A long time ago somebody mentioned a "Mainline Modeler" issue, but they were not able to provide a reference to what issue. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry; The plan you are looking for was published in Mainline Modeler July 1995. This particular plan has probably not been produced in a laser/acrylic medium because the cars were of riveted construction. There was a pronounced belt rail and letterboard strip, as well as and 5 vertical butt strips. It resembles a heavyweight car more than a lightweight car. Regards; Brian Butcher PRR 30s-50s 1/160th PRRT&HS #5540 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR-n_scale/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:59:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] M1 From: aurora7@juno.com Is the M1 going to be sidled into the building so she can get a decent cleanup and repainting? Are there any plans to house to other locomotive relics that sit around the turntable? RMPa has some of the most priceless artifacts in rail history. I hate to see them sitting outside in the weather. I'm sure a better MP54 representative could still be found for the museum. When I last saw the PC green hulk at RMPa, couldn't believe how badly rotted it was! Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "I've had a wonderful evening, unfortunately, this wasn't it". -Groucho ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:08:34 -0500 From: Godfrey Hall Subject: Re: [PRR] Interchange Cars - MP 10-6 "Pacific" Series List:- Check Jan. 2002 M.R. Page 47. Bobbye Hall's Hobby House sold after 56 yrs. & remains in business as Hall's Hobby House (same address) in Dallas Regards - Godfrey Hall ( no relation ) Jerry Britton wrote: > On 1/4/02 11:19 AM, Norm Bell (nbell@repco.com) wrote: > > > One of Ball's books, I think it is America's Colroful Railroads, has some > > color pictures of one of the Mopac Eagles. It is a sharp color scheme ( > > next to PRR of course). They had some very wide white trim pieces below the > > windows. You might check with Bobbie Hall's Hobby shop in Dallas if it is > > still in business. She imported some Mopac stuff over the years in brass. > > I've heard of Bobbie Hall's. It was just in the news that the shop closed > after 53 (or so) years! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:09:07 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] M1 From: Jerry Britton On 1/4/02 2:59 PM, aurora7@juno.com (aurora7@juno.com) wrote: > Is the M1 going to be sidled into the building so she can get a decent > cleanup and repainting? > Are there any plans to house to other locomotive relics that sit around > the turntable? RMPa has some of the most priceless artifacts in rail > history. I hate to see them sitting outside in the weather. I'm sure a > better MP54 representative could still be found for the museum. When I > last saw the PC green hulk at RMPa, couldn't believe how badly rotted it > was! > I am a member of the Friends of the Museum and the following is my "recollection" of reports from "The Milepost", their newsletter... I believe the recent realignment of track in the yard -- which was just completed -- was a precursor to construction of a roundhouse. I believe the roundhouse is the next project. This will get some of those locos out of the elements. Of course, it is only a medium sized turntable, so you won't see the M1 on it! I believe after the roundhouse there are talks of another rolling stock hall. Only question is: Where? There is farmland behind the current site. Perhaps it can be acquired. However, I seem to recall that once off the current museum property it goes downgrade, so some fill would be required. Next issue would be alignment of tracks to reach into the new building. One thing is for sure, what they have done with the current building is first rate. When you want to see restored equipment: Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. When you want to see interpretation: Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum. Too bad it's not all in one place! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] For sale: Athearn Genesis F7 set #9674 Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:24:09 -0500 Hi all, I hate to post a for sale message but due to a holiday gift buying snafu, I ended up with an extra A/B set of Athearn Genesis F7's. (Got them for a friend who had the audacity to buy them for himself first.) It's the second set they did, #9674A and 9674B. Brand new, never opened. I'm selling the set for the $155 that I paid for them.... (plus shipping) Any takers? Thanks! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:44:20 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Dining Cars in 1950's From: Jerry Britton Andy Miller and I have been chatting off-list about the 1954 "Penn Texas" consist. This train is one of many that the "New York Division Makeup of Trains" book indicates contains a "Dining Car". Many of the others specify the D85C/D85D twin unit diners, but the "Dining Car" entries bear no further clarification. The trains in question are: St. Louisan Manhattan Limited Liberty Limited (may have been twin unit; not in NY Div. Book) Red Arrow #531 from Baltimore to Harrisburg Indianapolis Limited New Englander Pennsylvania Limited Penn Texas Does anyone have any consist reports that would provide such info? Even with just the diner car number we could figure out which class it was. Andy thinks that the Penn Texas "probably" had a D85A. Based on the drawings list on Rob's site (http://PRR.Railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=din&sz=sm&fr= , which may not be all-inclusive), the possibilities include: D82, Budd, #4500-4501 D82AR, PS D82BR, Budd D82CR, ACF D85A, Budd, #4519-4524 D85AD, Budd, #4525-4526 D85R, Budd Of course there are also the older D70's and D78's. I don't know if they were still in use in 1954 or not. If so, perhaps only on the north-south trains. Any more opinions? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "steven hanlon" Subject: [PRR] pentrex pittsburgh mainlines Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:09:37 -0500 just got this in the mail today. what a great video. if you want to see an overview of conrail/csx in pitt, then get this video. -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] lettering Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 17:47:41 -0500 Hi All, When did the PRR change the color of the lettering of its head-end cars from gold to dulux? 1947? Please copy rwjaxon@earthlink.net in your response. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 17:47:41 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] ***PP - lettering Hi All, When did the PRR change the color of the lettering of its head-end cars from gold to dulux? 1947? Please copy rwjaxon@earthlink.net in your response. Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Tiny Wireless Camera under $80! Order Now! FREE VCR Commander! Click Here - Only 1 Day Left! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WoOlbB/7.PDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 19:18:01 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] M1 From: aurora7@juno.com Jerry: I'm glad to hear that the roundhouse project is aforethought. Housing for the M1, the Camelback, the Nickle Plate Berk, and eventually (I hope) the I1, should be a priority. Getting the M1 into the building should be the #1 project in my opinion. The Museum has done wonderful work to date, though "Rivets" needs to get under cover, no matter who owns her. It's a great collection. Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "I've had a wonderful evening, unfortunately, this wasn't it". -Groucho ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 19:30:18 -0500 From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Dining Cars in 1950's --------------A8C16DEA38EE512599315DED Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since the trains with twin unit diners show 2 cars in the make-up, I would think it very likely that that the diner listings with 1 car are single units. My 1957 NY Make-Up of Trains shows a two unit diner on the "Penn Texas". John Ryan Jerry Britton wrote: > Andy Miller and I have been chatting off-list about the 1954 "Penn Texas" > consist. > > This train is one of many that the "New York Division Makeup of Trains" book > indicates contains a "Dining Car". Many of the others specify the D85C/D85D > twin unit diners, but the "Dining Car" entries bear no further > clarification. > > The trains in question are: > St. Louisan > Manhattan Limited > Liberty Limited (may have been twin unit; not in NY Div. Book) > Red Arrow > #531 from Baltimore to Harrisburg > Indianapolis Limited > New Englander > Pennsylvania Limited > Penn Texas > > Does anyone have any consist reports that would provide such info? Even with > just the diner car number we could figure out which class it was. > > Andy thinks that the Penn Texas "probably" had a D85A. Based on the drawings > list on Rob's site > (http://PRR.Railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=din&sz=sm&fr= , which > may not be all-inclusive), the possibilities include: > > D82, Budd, #4500-4501 > D82AR, PS > D82BR, Budd > D82CR, ACF > D85A, Budd, #4519-4524 > D85AD, Budd, #4525-4526 > D85R, Budd > > Of course there are also the older D70's and D78's. I don't know if they > were still in use in 1954 or not. If so, perhaps only on the north-south > trains. > > Any more opinions? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------A8C16DEA38EE512599315DED Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since the trains with twin unit diners show 2 cars in the make-up, I would think it very likely that that the diner listings with 1 car are single units.  My 1957 NY Make-Up of Trains shows a two unit diner on the "Penn Texas".

John Ryan

Jerry Britton wrote:

Andy Miller and I have been chatting off-list about the 1954 "Penn Texas"
consist.

This train is one of many that the "New York Division Makeup of Trains" book
indicates contains a "Dining Car". Many of the others specify the D85C/D85D
twin unit diners, but the "Dining Car" entries bear no further
clarification.

The trains in question are:
    St. Louisan
    Manhattan Limited
    Liberty Limited (may have been twin unit; not in NY Div. Book)
    Red Arrow
    #531 from Baltimore to Harrisburg
    Indianapolis Limited
    New Englander
    Pennsylvania Limited
    Penn Texas

Does anyone have any consist reports that would provide such info? Even with
just the diner car number we could figure out which class it was.

Andy thinks that the Penn Texas "probably" had a D85A. Based on the drawings
list on Rob's site
(http://PRR.Railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=din&sz=sm&fr= , which
may not be all-inclusive), the possibilities include:

    D82, Budd, #4500-4501
    D82AR, PS
    D82BR, Budd
    D82CR, ACF
    D85A, Budd, #4519-4524
    D85AD, Budd, #4525-4526
    D85R, Budd

Of course there are also the older D70's and D78's. I don't know if they
were still in use in 1954 or not. If so, perhaps only on the north-south
trains.

Any more opinions?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For brass collectors...
    http://www.brasstrains.net
Free serving of railroad web sites...
    http://www.railfancentral.com

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

--------------A8C16DEA38EE512599315DED-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 20:51:43 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Interchange Cars - MP 10-6 "Pacific" Series Jerry, I do have this plan, and already have it programmed, ready for production in whatever scale. The DL&W purchased cars to this same plan, which went to the E-L after the merger. Regards, Dennis Sautters, Laser Horizons ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 21:09:03 -0500 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: Re: [PRR] Dining Cars in 1950's > Any more opinions? A. Sure. Unless the makeup book specified twins (D85C/D85D), A "diner" meant a Lightweight D-82 - D-85 or a modernized D-78. If the makeup book specifies a baggage dorm or dorm lounge, you can safely assume that a single was employed. It should be noted that assignments were sometimes changed. The "Spirit of St. Louis" and the "Texas" swapped diners in the early '60s with #31 getting the single and #3 the twin. Remember, there were only so many D-85 C/d sets. Not nearly enough to cover the entire fleet. Also when a twin was bad ordered, a single would sub for it. Modernized D-78 cars (along with their lightweight cousins) worked east - west trains right up to the end of the PRR, although snack bar coaches began replacing them on #s-22-23-33-50-54-55 in 1966. Trains #s 28-29-48-49-30-31-3-4 retained theirs through their demise or Amtrak, which ever came first. Although by that time, the NYC Budds were the most common diner on the PC. Joe Witcofsky ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 3:44 PM Subject: [PRR] Dining Cars in 1950's > Andy Miller and I have been chatting off-list about the 1954 "Penn Texas" > consist. > > This train is one of many that the "New York Division Makeup of Trains" book > indicates contains a "Dining Car". Many of the others specify the D85C/D85D > twin unit diners, but the "Dining Car" entries bear no further > clarification. > > The trains in question are: > St. Louisan > Manhattan Limited > Liberty Limited (may have been twin unit; not in NY Div. Book) > Red Arrow > #531 from Baltimore to Harrisburg > Indianapolis Limited > New Englander > Pennsylvania Limited > Penn Texas > > Does anyone have any consist reports that would provide such info? Even with > just the diner car number we could figure out which class it was. > > Andy thinks that the Penn Texas "probably" had a D85A. Based on the drawings > list on Rob's site > (http://PRR.Railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=din&sz=sm&fr= , which > may not be all-inclusive), the possibilities include: > > D82, Budd, #4500-4501 > D82AR, PS > D82BR, Budd > D82CR, ACF > D85A, Budd, #4519-4524 > D85AD, Budd, #4525-4526 > D85R, Budd > > Of course there are also the older D70's and D78's. I don't know if they > were still in use in 1954 or not. If so, perhaps only on the north-south > trains. > > Any more opinions? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rdhess10@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 21:54:00 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR K5 --part1_10c.ac6f04d.2967c4c8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm currently in the process of having my Westside K5 painted. Can anyone tell me if the tender on the K5 had a backup light and if so where was it positioned? I havn't found any pictures showing the rear of the tender. Any help anyone can give me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Bob Hess --part1_10c.ac6f04d.2967c4c8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm currently in the process of having my Westside K5 painted.  Can anyone tell me if the tender on the K5 had a backup light and if so where was it positioned?  I havn't found any pictures showing the rear of the tender.  Any help anyone can give me would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Bob Hess --part1_10c.ac6f04d.2967c4c8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 22:09:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR K5 Hi Bob, Good question and good timing. I have photos of the K5 and may try to dig them out to confirm what I seen just today on a Key Imports K5. I seen a Key Import Model of a Modernized K5 on the internet today. Key did not put any Backup Light on the Tender Deck. Usually Key does a fine job on research so they may have done this correct. Will try to get back with you on my findings with my prototype photos.... Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 22:17:50 EST Subject: [PRR] Madison Hill Part 1 As happens about once a year, the saga of the Madison Hill and its SD-7's has erupted again -- this time on PRR-Talk. I've been fascinated by the history of the Madison Hill since before I moved to Louisville, KY. Madison's a little upriver of us, on the Indiana side. Here's some notes on the Madison Hill: I. Madison Indiana and The Hill A. The town Madison is one of the oldest towns in Indiana. Occupying the north bank of the Ohio River, it was about half the steamboat distance from Cincinnati down to Louisville. Because of its location, it was an early jumping-off point into the interior of Indiana. And it was the place you got off the boat to travel overland to Indianapolis. Madison Indiana is today as much of a historical museum as it is a place to work. It's an easy day trip from Cincinnati OH, Indianapolis IN, and Louisville or Lexington Kentucky. Antiques and tourism are major economic factors, and what conventional rail-served industry remains is at "North Madison", high on the bluffs above the old riverboat town. B. The Madison Branch As we know it, the Madison Branch came off the PRR Main Indianapolis to Louisville at Columbus IN. It traversed mostly rolling open country, once crossing the Milwaukee Road's easternmost line at Elizabeth (MP 8.0), crossing the double track B&O (Ohio & Mississippi) from Cincinnati to St. Louis at North Vernon (MP 21.5). It reached the top of the limestone bluffs above the Ohio River at North Madison IN (MP43.0). From there, the Madison Hill drops to riverbank level and terminates in the old town of Madison (MP 45.2). "The direction from Columbus to Madison is southward". C. The Madison Incline The Hill itself is commonly calculated at 5.89%, a number verifiable from the 1968 PRR track charts. However, engineering diagrams show that The Hill is made up of several grade segments, the steepest about 6.06%. The single track down the Hill is notable for a number of reasons (in no particular order): a) The whole grade is surveyed on a straight line. When built, it was thought it would have to be either operated as a cable-hauled railroad, or as a rack road. b) The Hill starts off at the top as sidehill construction, enters a long cut which gets pretty deep, and farther downhill is on a sizeable fill as it drops into town. On the west side of the cut is a mental institution, which seems somehow to fit with everything else we know about The Hill. That institution's access road crosses the cut, providing the only easy access to the upper Hill. c) The cut is also of interest because the high rock walls on each side continually run water down to trackside. In many places, the ditches on each side of the carry a goodly size streamlet, and have been lined to become more like little canals. These ditches are lined variously with broken rock, with modern concrete curbs, with nice PRR-style stonework curbs, and even with the original (pre-Civil War) local freestone walls, which are laid up of smaller, whitish rectangular stone. d) This piece of Indiana has a ferocious reputation for copperheads. I can only report that I've walked various sections of The Hill in summer and fall, and haven't seen any yet. Perhaps they saw me first. e) At the bottom of the grade, the Hill track passes under the main street of the town, throws off a number of sidings, and turns 90 degrees to run upriver into the center of town. Those switches at the bottom of the grade bear parts with dates circa 1893. Every available route curves sharply enough to derail a runaway, if not overturn it. As Norm Bell speculates, there was no such thing as runaway protection - there was only the Ohio River. Madison IN used to have a number of rail-served industries. Evidence of this is both in the 1945 CT1000W and from the physical evidence of extant buildings with loading docks, and foundations of former buildings in logical relation to the tracks. In the center of town, a replica of the original "octagonal" Madison station has been built at "end of track"; this is a museum with exhibits about the history of the town and (especially) the railroad. In recent decades, trains have only run down The Hill to bring or take away large electrical components for a good-size steam-fired electrical power plant. In fact, the last time the Hill was traversed was 1993, which required a major rehab and many new ties. As you'd expect, young saplings and roadbed washouts in the cut were already taking over in summer of 2001. I'd have a hard time arguing The Hill was the most severe grade on a main line steam railroad, because it hasn't been a main line for a long time. Nevertheless, it sets some kind of record for a line that used to have passenger trains on it (one wonders if they ever dared operate a Pullman heavyweight into Madison - one car, one engine). For our purposes, maybe it's sufficient that this was the worst on the Pennsy. II. History of the Railroad at Madison IN Considering that Indiana did not even became a state until 1816, the businessmen of Madison were very forward-thinking when around 1829 they projected their railroad. The Madison RR finally got going in 1836, built via the town of Columbus IN, and finally reached Indy in 1847. Soon the Madison and its neighbor the Jeffersonville RR merged, creating the JM&I (Jeffersonville Madison & Indianapolis). By about 1870, the JM&I's association with the Pennsy's Lines West became control, and it became part of the various companies that were nicknamed the Panhandle (or Pan Handle). After 1920, the Pan Handle companies operations were consolidated with the PRR. The Madison line was part of the Louisville Division, then the Indianapolis Division, and finally the Southwestern Division. As time passed, the Madison line evolved into the Madison Branch, probably because the Indiana and Kentucky cities at the Falls of the Ohio (Louisville KY, Jeffersonville IN, Clarksville IN, and New Albany IN) grew, with industries and interchange traffic, and Madison did not. As the Madison Branch, the railroad was operated out of a small yard in Columbus Indiana. Columbus' yard was fed by traffic on the Indy-Louisville main, which included Chicago-Louisville and Columbus-Louisville freights, and even New York-Louisville sleepers. In late PRR days, the whole line was operated out of Columbus IN, but online traffic was dying fast. Sometime after PC took over, track between Columbus and North Vernon was abandoned, and the line was run by detouring south of Columbus on the Louisville line, then using the B&O from Seymour to North Vernon, then getting back on home rails. In 1970, PC was operating this line as part of its Indiana Division, headquartered in Indianapolis. Conrail declined to pick this turkey up, and the Port Authority of Madison was formed to run the railroad. Served by the B&O at North Vernon, the Madison Railway operates south on the remainder of the branch through Vernon (another very old Indiana pioneer town) to industries at North Madison. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 22:17:55 EST Subject: [PRR] Part 2 - Madison Hill and its Motive Power Here's the second part of my notes on the Madison Hill: III. Power on Madison Hill A. A Rack railroad first It's reported that the Madison RR was first operated with a rack between the rails. Of course, in the early years of railroading it was common wisdom that engines could not climb grades. The rack worked, but I'd guess was very expensive to maintain. B. Early adhesion power By all accounts, the early days of the road were busy ones. Experiments showed that adhesion locomotives (relying on friction of the wheel on the rail) would get short trains up and down the Hill, and so a series of freakish-looking early steam engines were spawned to do this job safely. The most famous of these was the Reuben Wells, an 0-10-0 named for the Master Mechanic who built her in JM&I's Jeffersonville shops. The Reuben Wells is famous because it was preserved - the PRR sent it to Northumberland as part of the historical locomotive collection. Word is that it was donated from there to Purdue University; in any case, it wound up in the collection of the Indianapolis Children's Museum, and was built into the basement of their new main building some years ago. It is now on exhibit with a Pennsy MoW caboose, and other railroad and toy train exhibits. My kid's now too old for the Children's Museum, but last time I was there, there was a model railroad that demonstrated the passage of trains up and down the Hill. Some of the structures in that display even look like Madison and North Madison buildings that appear in old pictures. Later photos show a series of tank engines, sometimes doubleheaded. I can't identify them with anything I see in Pennsy Power I, II, or III. These engines look very short and have coal bunkers behind the cab instead of tenders. At least one photo hints that they didn't always run with the firebox downhill. One wonders how they kept the crown sheet wet and thus avoided boiler explosions. C. PRR H6sb's It's known that, in the era of interest for most of us, the Hill was run with a fleet of 5 or 6 H6sb's, specially equipped. For more on this, see Dick Jacobs' article in the December 1983 Keystone. Dick says these engines had extra air brake equipment, a piston exhaust compression brake, sand boxes behind the #4 driver for backing down The Hill, and other features, and were almost the last surviving H6's on the system, lasting until 1951. Note: Dick also refers us to RLHS Bulletin 123, "Locomotives for the Madison Hill", although I've not yet been able to track this down. D. PRR H10's Dick further mentions the 3 H10's that were rebuilt at Columbus OH in 1951 to replace the aging H6's. They also carried the unusual "full metal jacket" that the Hill required. E. PRR ES15a (EMD SD7's) In an example of odd timing, but probably from hysterical determination to displace all steam on the Indianapolis Division, the H10's were in turn replaced in late 1953 by two EMD SD7's. The late Jack Fravert's photo collection included a pic from about this period with a row of officials (top coats and hats) riding down The Hill on the front deck of a new-looking 8588. Some facts about these units: 1. Road numbers: Their PRR numbers from delivery to 1966 were 8588 to 8589. The merger numbering made them 6950 and 6951, but with the coming of SD38's, PC renumbered them 6998 and 6999. Conrail inherited the units with the same numbers, although it refused to include the Madison Hill line. The new shortline to Madison decided against taking the SD7's, and I can remember 6998 in spanking-new CR blue, sitting dead in the yard at Seymour IN and presumably waiting to be shipped out to a new owner. 2. PRR and PC Class: It's interesting that PRR documents of 1966 refer to these two units as "ES-15A", and they are included in "Class 5" for the purposed of clearances and weight limits (class 5 includes many if not all PRR 6-motors). The ES-15ax designation appears to be a PC classification. IIRC, it was intended to reinforce the fact these engines did not have MU. 3. Comparative ballasting. For additional facts, we can turn to an email sent me by Ken Douglas: a) The question of the SD7 weights did result in a tabulation I made of all SD7 units with their weight. I was sure that I had done this before during the preparation of the material on the PRR ES-15a units to confirm that their weight was within the limits that EMD specified. I was able to find weights on all 188 SD7 units except for the Kennecott unit. Also, found what EMD said was the available weight range". b) "The EMD range I found was 300000 lbs to 360000 lbs. Some units were beyond these limits on both ends, but not too much. The heaviest was the B&O 1826, which oddly enough was originally an EMD demo. It was 372800 lbs. The lightest was a Milw. unit at 296420 lbs. As I said, not too much beyond the limits. So, while the PRR units were to the EMD spec, they certainly were right at the limit". 4. More Ballasting: in May 2001, I received this data in an email posting signed only "Mark". I suspect that he is reporting order data from EMD files: a) "The SD7's were built in late 1953 under EMD order 5300 to an average weight of 360,840 lbs (full supplies) (nominal 360,000 +- 3,000 lbs.). b) Pennsy SD9's, EMD order 5567, were built to nominal 357,000 +- 3,000 lbs.). c) The basic SD7 was 290,500 lbs. and it was brought up to 360,840 by adding a heavy underframe (24,740 lbs.), dynamic brakes (4,955 lbs.), additional ballast (27,356 lbs.), additional fuel tank - 1200 gallons (12,120 lbs.), misc. appurtances (1169 lbs.). d) I also found it interesting that the rail washers were evidently not installed at EMD (no mention in spec). Also absent were trainphone antennae and train control (these were "switchers"). They were built with 65:12 gear ratio (max speed 55mph), special 18" brake shoes, no MU, hump control, Leslie S-3-L horn (all bells facing forward), controls relocated for long hood forward, and (PRR special) end step grab irons modified to bring portion below 4' 2" from rail to 10' 0" overall width in lieu of basic 10' 8" overall width - both ends. A last minute addition was use of 16-567BC engines instead of 16-567B. Must have been some sort of pilot run for the 567C." e) A side note is that evidently concrete was used for extra ballast in those days (specifically called out in the SD9 spec). This practice was eventually discontinued as it was less expensive and more convenient to apply heavier underframes, end sheets and pig iron slugs. It is also difficult to cut up (scrap) a steel locomotive with large slabs of concrete in the middle! 5. Yet More Ballasting: a) For those with access to PRR's specifications (the 109 series of Classification specs), it turns out the Pennsy spec'd their SD9's at 4000 pounds lighter than the SD7, or 356,000 pounds. I have no insight as to why this was so. b) What probably caused excitement/comment in the railfan press at the time was: (1) These 360000 pound engines were for a branch, and (2) Most SD7's were being bought and equipped light, with tiny fuel tanks, for flimsy rail. 6. Other equipment: a) These SD7's were geared 65:12, similar to switch engine gearing, limiting them to low speed lugging. They did get dynamic brakes (one wonders if this was a first for an SD7?). This must have been an early extended-range dynamic, as it "functioned all the way down to 5-8 mph". As the story in the April 2001 Trains magazine tells, under PC, the SD7's were assigned to Avon Yard. Thus, heavy maintenance was moved to ex-NYC Beech Grove Shops. Beech Grove is in suburban Indianapolis, and actually not far from PRR's Hawthorne Yard. On their first shop visit, the Green Team shop guys disconnected the dynamics, and the first trip back to The Hill, the engine ran away. From the Trains story, it wasn't the first time -- PRR employees told legendary stories about runaways that piled up in the Ohio River. b) Jack Consoli documents from a PRR 109L and/or 109M footnote that the SD7's had hump control. It would have been useful, since they worked at very low speed - the Hill was supposed to be run at 8 mph. From the same source, he also documents that they had "Vapor 4015" Water Heater, which I assume was for their well-known hot water rail washers. The rail washers were needed to clean leaves and mud off the railhead so sanding was effective for traction. c) Like the steam power they replaced, I believe the SD7's had extra air brake reservoirs for safety. It's well documented that they had a six-cylinder Gardner-Denver air compressor, instead of the normal WABCO three-cylinder compressor. And they did not have MU - there was normally no second engine on The Hill to MU with. d) It's reported that the SD7's, as delivered, had other interesting equipment. Consider these comments from "Mark": "I also found it interesting that the rail washers were evidently not installed at EMD (no mention in spec). Also absent were trainphone antennae and train control (these were "switchers"). They were built with 65:12 gear ratio (max speed 55mph), special 18" brake shoes, no MU, hump control, Leslie S-3-L horn (all bells facing forward), controls relocated for long hood forward, and (PRR special) end step grab irons modified to bring portion below 4' 2" from rail to 10' 0" overall width in lieu of basic 10' 8" overall width - both ends. A last minute addition was use of 16-567BC engines instead of 16-567B. Must have been some sort of pilot run for the 567C." 7. Operating on The Hill a) Also like the Hill's steam power, the SD7's descent of the Hill was regulated by special rules. The ETT carries a page and a half of instructions, although most of the paragraphs end with versions of "if this fails, bring the engine to a complete stop until the problem is corrected. See for example Western Region ETT No. 5, Rule 1155-A1. In part, it says, "only ES-15A type Diesel engine, equipped with operative dynamic brake, pressure maintaining feature, and rail washing device, will be used to handle trains between derail... and Bridge 44.14 (Main Street, Madison). The engine must be operated at the south end of the train" b) These ETT instructions also make frequent reference to the five Madison Hill pages of Brake and Train Air Signal Instructions No. 99-D-1, which may reveal additional air tanks/reservoir capacity on these units. c) Just to give a flavor of the operation, trains were restricted to a small number of freight cars, and (like most Madison operations through history) were required to operate on the downhill end of their train. The PRR Southwestern Division 1964 ETT No. 1 and the 1966 ETT No. 5 both specify that trains are limited to 15 cars, and light engine movements are prohibited. The PC Indiana Division 1970 ETT No. 4 rule is essentially identical, except it identifies the units as ES-15ax. I've read Rules said that both the units together could be allowed 13 cars, but the only tandem ops I can find were to bring extra-heavy loads like generators and turbines up and down the hill. Of course, when both engines ran, that took two engine crews. 8. Sticking close to home a) We hear a lot about "they never got very far away from North Madison". I've been told that when one engine came back to Indianapolis Hawthorne for its scheduled maintenance, the other one was already back at the base of Branch operations in Columbus. The story goes that, once serviced, the "spare" engine was only sent on transfer jobs which would bring it right back. b) I can verify that, if an SD7 pic was not taken on the Branch, it will usually be on the hump at Hawthorne. The most distant pic I know of is the Frankfort IN shot on p 175 of Morning Sun's Penn Central Power, and of course it's no longer a PRR engine. Ed Caylor has heard of PC sending the SD7's farther up the I&F to Logansport, but I'm not sure what evidence of this is findable. D. Port of Madison engines With the coming of Conrail, Madison was finally cut off from the PRR system. When the city of Madison essentially reclaimed its railroad in the 70's, the first power was a leased Precision National Geep rebuild in yellow and green, stationed at the interchange track with the B&O in North Vernon. Later, "new" shop buildings at JEFF (MP 36.9) became available with the de-Federalization of the Army's Jefferson Proving Grounds, and the new Madison Railway got GP-38's. The shops at Jeff also make sense because a variety of heavy commercial business is moving into other rail-served buildings on the Proving Grounds. As an interesting sidelight, the General Manager of the new Madison Railway is something of a railfan. She (yes, she) keeps scrapbooks on the history of the Madison line and its power, and adds pix of the ongoing upgrading of the right-of-way. Her crews are steadily rebuilding track and bridges south of North Vernon, so that modern 100 ton cars will be no problem on their railroad. Of course, the one thing missing is operation on the Hill. But it's probably just as well that it lives on in history; it's an FRA nightmare. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 23:15:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR K5 Bob, I just dug out my photo albums. Looking at the 20+ K5 pics I have (circa 1929-1946) neither of the 2 K5's have Tender Head Lights. I would leave them off the model. It is easier to add later if photo proof pops up......Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] X-29 signal line drawing Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 23:17:39 -0500 Hi, Does anyone have a copy of PRR drawing # D-442337 for the X-29 signal line application? Please reply to billlane@snip.net Thank you Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 23:17:39 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] ***PP - X-29 signal line drawing Hi, Does anyone have a copy of PRR drawing # D-442337 for the X-29 signal line application? Please reply to billlane@snip.net Thank you Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Tiny Wireless Camera under $80! Order Now! FREE VCR Commander! Click Here - Only 1 Day Left! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WoOlbB/7.PDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 02:21:43 -0500 From: Rosenbauer John Subject: Re: [PRR] scanner recommendations "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" wrote: > > I believe that some (most??) railroads make use of centralized, large > antennas. If so, the detector that is 1/2 mile away may be broadcasting > from an antenna significantly further away. Along the Amtrak NE Corridor, > there is an antenna adjacent to the Jersey Avenue station (New Brunswick, > NJ) that was also used by the midway (South Brunswick/Monmouth Junction, NJ) > tower. > Actually not. When you think how large a transmitter would be required to cover a division it's just not practical. Add the fact that a DS talking to one train would cover the entire div making any other communications impossible and you can understand why lower power remote base stations are used. Defect dectors use even lower powered radios as they only need to talk to the train that just cleared them. The Hillside dector, MP 304.4 can be heard at CP Trobe, MP 312 on most days but not all depending on atmospheric conditions. Occasionally I will get snippets from it at home about 18 miles away. Radio transmissions can do funny things. Long time back I was a 911 dispatcher and in spring and fall we would get LA country fire dispatchers blasting in like they were next door. That's Los Angeles country and we were in Greensburg, PA! John W Rosenbauer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "aidrian.bridgeman-sutton" Subject: [PRR] Early K4s appearance Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 09:27:23 -0000 I wonder if someone can help with a question regarding the use of piston tail rods, or more specifically when they were removed. I'm trying to backdate a model to ca 1923 condition, with low sided 7,000 gallon tender. This entails removing the power reverse, rebuilding the running boards and replacing the headlight with the "electrified oil" type and a few other less viisble changes. I believe that by 1923 the markers had also been electrified, but that's a trivial change that can be worked in later if I'm proved wrong. I only have one picture that clearly shows the tail rod extensions still in place in the time frame in which I am interested, and this engine has the wrong pattern of tender. So might I ask if anyone can give me a reference to a picture of a K4s in the condition described that clearly shows either the presence or absence of the tail rod housings, or failing that, a date for their removal? Aidrian York England ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "steven hanlon" Subject: [PRR] scanner recommendations Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 11:10:01 -0500 i recently pirchased a radio shack pro-79 scanner but this unit seems to be missing many of the signals. i was within 0.5 miles of a defect detector and i would only get the transmissions 1 out of 5 times. i'm not looking to spend a grand sum of money on a scanner, but i would like one that can at least pick up a transmission a half mile away 5 out of 5 times. any recoomendations would be helpful. please respond off list if this is too off-topic. thank you, steve hanlon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Early K4s Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 11:17:12 -0600 (CST) From: george.pierson@trnty.edu Hi, all, In 1923, chance were less than even that K4s still had tailrods. You can see an occasional picture of various PRR locomotives with tailroads into the early 1920s, but apparently it was recognized by this time that tailrods were not necessary in order to maintain proper alignment and lubrication. RE electrified markers, yes, I believe that if there was a generator on the engine, the markers were also electrified. A few other thoughts - be sure to use a round number plate and NOT a keystone. They did not start to be used until the late 1920s. Also, the tender and engine cab had a multi-colored striping scheme, such as you can see today on the D16 and E6 at Strasburg. Finally, make sure you have the early slatted pilot. George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Interchange Cars - MP 10-6 "Pacific" Series Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 11:57:01 -0600 With respect to 10&6's, was there another difference that is important? I seem to recall that the PRR sleepers had double bed rooms located adjacent to the vestibule, while the more common variation (including those used by AMTRAK in their heritage fleet) is that the roomettes are adjacent to the vestibule? Can someone please clarify and correct my thoughts on this? -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 11:33 AM To: Jerry Britton Cc: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Interchange Cars - MP 10-6 "Pacific" Series All right Jerry, you shamed me into displaying my ignorance. AFAIK the 9008s were the 10-6 plan which ACF built for the PRR. They are in fact, the car which AHM/IHC/Rivarossi makes in HO. As such it is the most prolific 10-6 in HO. Perhaps tat is why no one else makes sides for them. The most common 10-6 in the real world was probably the PS plan 4140. The difference is primarily how the beds are laid out in the bedrooms. A brief clinic (on-line version) on 10-6 identification. 4140s have all BRs with transverse beds. 9008s have BRs with alternating transverse and longitudinal bed. ACF built 9008s have evenly spaced BR windows (look at the Rivarossi car). PS built 10-6s have the BR windows noticeably paired. On 4140's the pairs are evenly spaced, on PS 9008s the pairs are unevenly spaced. Plans for the riveted sides ACF 9008 (not all 9008 were riveted), which includes the MP cars and PRR cars Buffalo Rapids and , appeared in MR about five years ago. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > I fully expect Andy Miller to answer this, but to the list... > > The "Penn Texas" carried four interchange cars. Among them were two 10-6 > cars built by ACF to Pullman Plan 9008 in MP "Eagle" livery. > > Plan 9008 differs from any the PRR had, and I am trying to find appropriate > passenger car sides to build a model...N scale no less! > > Does anyone know what other railroads used this car? > > I've struck out with the usual model side manufacturers: Laser Horizons, > Brass Car Sides, Union Station Products, Des Plaines Hobbies (which has a > Budd "Pacific ___" 10-6), and Marshall Shops (which does all the other MP > "Eagle" cars). > > If nobody knows of sides, does anyone know of published drawings? A long > time ago somebody mentioned a "Mainline Modeler" issue, but they were not > able to provide a reference to what issue. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] M1 Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 12:01:32 -0600 Is there ANY chance that the I-1 could be returned to the State of Pennsylvania, and take its rightful place along all the other great PRR locomotives at Strasburg? -----Original Message----- From: aurora7@juno.com [mailto:aurora7@juno.com] Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 6:18 PM To: jerry@pennsyrr.com Cc: aurora7@juno.com; WAJK4@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] M1 Jerry: I'm glad to hear that the roundhouse project is aforethought. Housing for the M1, the Camelback, the Nickle Plate Berk, and eventually (I hope) the I1, should be a priority. Getting the M1 into the building should be the #1 project in my opinion. The Museum has done wonderful work to date, though "Rivets" needs to get under cover, no matter who owns her. It's a great collection. Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "I've had a wonderful evening, unfortunately, this wasn't it". -Groucho ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ThreeButchers@cs.com Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 13:03:07 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR 10/6 sleepers Pullman Plan 9008 Andy, Jerry; I compared the roster information from the July 1995 M-M article to the "Passenger Equipment of the PRR, vol 2". Both are in agreement.... Only ACF delivered cars to the PRR from Pullman plan 9008....23 cars total. Lot #3079 - Rivet and spot weld construction French Rapids Genesee Rapids Green Rapids Huron Rapids Lot #3200 - Rivet construction Blue Rapids Buffalo Rapids Hudson Rapids Eagle Beam "" Bluff "" Charm "" Chief "" Cove "" Eye "" Grand "" Head '"" Oak "" Park "" Pass Lot #3212 - Rivet Construction Allegheny Rapids Mahoning Rapids Mississippi "" Ohio "" Penns "" I checked the ACF/ Pullman plan #9008 / Lot #3200 drawing (Eagle cars) in Mainline Modeler with the Rivarossi smoothside 10-6 model....On top of being smoothside Vs riveted....the window spacing does not match on the compartment side. Regards; Brian Butcher PRR 30s-50s 1/160th PRRT&HS #5540 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR-n_scale/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] scanner recommendations Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 13:39:59 -0500 I believe that some (most??) railroads make use of centralized, large antennas. If so, the detector that is 1/2 mile away may be broadcasting from an antenna significantly further away. Along the Amtrak NE Corridor, there is an antenna adjacent to the Jersey Avenue station (New Brunswick, NJ) that was also used by the midway (South Brunswick/Monmouth Junction, NJ) tower. I hope this helps. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----- Original Message ----- From: steven hanlon To: PRR-Talk LIST Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 11:10 AM Subject: [PRR] scanner recommendations > i recently pirchased a radio shack pro-79 scanner but this unit seems to be > missing many of the signals. i was within 0.5 miles of a defect detector > and i would only get the transmissions 1 out of 5 times. > > i'm not looking to spend a grand sum of money on a scanner, but i would like > one that can at least pick up a transmission a half mile away 5 out of 5 > times. > > any recoomendations would be helpful. please respond off list if this is > too off-topic. > > thank you, > > steve hanlon > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 15:11:23 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] lettering On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Bill Lane wrote: > When did the PRR change the color of the lettering of its head-end cars from > gold to dulux? 1947? Please copy rwjaxon@earthlink.net in your response. Bill, According to Pennsylvania RR Passenger Car PAinting and Lettering (Blardone & Tilp, 1988, PRRT&HS) the transition from Gold Leaf to Dulux Gold was mid 1952 for steel passenger cars. The R50 was never lettered in gold leaf, always Dulux Gold, and the express X29s were FCC with white lettering. Hope this helps Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 16:17:06 EST Subject: [PRR] P-70fbR --part1_d8.118cda08.2968c752_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List, Recently bought an ECW kit No. 1121. This kit has an arch roof with six wheel trucks. Thought this would be a unique car due to the lone "porthole" windows on the sides at the same end and the large trucks, however, all references to this car have clerestory roofs and various four wheeled trucks. Is this kit fiction rather than fact? If it did exist, why did it have six wheeled trucks? Many thanks in advance, Evan Leisey --part1_d8.118cda08.2968c752_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List,

 Recently bought an ECW kit No. 1121.  This kit has an arch roof with six wheel trucks.  Thought this would be a unique car due to the lone "porthole" windows on the sides at the same end and the large trucks, however, all references to this car have clerestory roofs and various four wheeled trucks.  

 Is this kit fiction rather than fact?  If it did exist, why did it have six wheeled trucks?

Many thanks in advance,

Evan Leisey --part1_d8.118cda08.2968c752_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 16:43:58 -0500 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] P-70fbR RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > > PRR List, > > Recently bought an ECW kit No. 1121. This kit has an arch roof with > six wheel trucks. Thought this would be a unique car due to the lone > "porthole" windows on the sides at the same end and the large trucks, > however, all references to this car have clerestory roofs and various > four wheeled trucks. > > Is this kit fiction rather than fact? If it did exist, why did it > have six wheeled trucks? > > Many thanks in advance, > > Evan Leisey Evan- Taken from ECW website- 1120 Coach P-70FBR 6 Wheel Truck Arch Roof 1121 Coach P-70FBR 4 Wheel Commonwealth Truck Arch Roof 1122 Coach P-70FBR 4 Wheel PRR Truck Arch Roof 1123 Coach P-70FBR 6 Wheel Truck Clerestory Roof 1124 Coach P-70FBR 4 Wheel Commonwealth Truck Clerestory Roof 1125 Coach P-70 FBR 4 Wheel PRR Truck Clerestory Roof Kit 1121 should have 4 wheel trucks. However AFIK, ECW is pretty accurate with their models, so according to them, the car came in at least 6 variations. Eddie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "steven hanlon" Subject: [PRR] prr/nec defect detectors Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 18:39:20 -0500 i'm trying to find an on-line source with an employee timetable for the NEC with defect detectors and x-over points. this would be very helpful to finding the "right" spot to hang out and "watch" trains. also, does anyone know what the new freight schedule on the NEC between Baltimore and DC is these days? -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] P-70fbR Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 18:58:13 -0600 Evan and Eddie--A quick look in my "Passenger Equipment of the Pennsylvania Railroad Vol. 1: Coaches" shows P70fbR coaches in both clerestory and arch roofs. All have a four wheel truck type known as 2E-P5, which looks like the Commonwealth style with a dampner on the outside, but not the normal PRR passenger truck. Several years ago this truck was available from ECW if you got the right kit, but I don't know the current situation. No six wheel trucks. ECW is indeed very accurate with their models, but then marketing takes over. They of course are in business to make money and have chosen to sell any combination of parts anyone wants to buy. Most manufacturers do this, with the notable, but not perfect, exceptions of P2K and Branchline. It is up to the modeler to be informed. There is nothing wrong with taking a book or photo to the store. Or ask on this list--somebody will know. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 20:03:45 -0500 From: Dale Dembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] scanner recommendations Try another antenna. The short flexible ones that come with the scanner are OK, but a metal one will be better and give more range and clarity. Talk to Radio Shack - they will eagerly sell you a better antenna, which shouldn't cost more than $20 or so for a portable one (mine's old so I could be off on the pricing). My metal antenna is about 6" long with a black thing on the end. It extends to about 30", but it is not necessary to extend the antenna to get good reception. Works mucho better than the short flexible one, which I eventually threw away. If you are in your vehicle, RS sells one about 36" long that clamps on your vehicle roof with a magnet for those road trips to track 1361 when it returns to Altoona (obligatory references to PRR engine to comply with list guidelines). Also, (and this is cheaper and easier, so try this first) make sure that your squelch is only just turned until the static is suppressed. Too much squelch is a bad thing. If you turn it too far you will absolutely lose transmissions. Note that the reception suffers in a car, and some buildings. Dale steven hanlon wrote: > i recently pirchased a radio shack pro-79 scanner but this unit seems to be > missing many of the signals. i was within 0.5 miles of a defect detector > and i would only get the transmissions 1 out of 5 times. > > i'm not looking to spend a grand sum of money on a scanner, but i would like > one that can at least pick up a transmission a half mile away 5 out of 5 > times. > > any recoomendations would be helpful. please respond off list if this is > too off-topic. > > thank you, > > steve hanlon > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "teabow" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/04/02 Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 23:51:39 -0500 From:Ray Thibaut P.R.R.T.&H.S. #5460 TO:"PRR-Talk"PRR-Talk@dsop.com Does anyone know where i can find a drawing for brake rigging for a GLa hopper? I am building a Bowser kit in HO.Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- Ray Thibaut From: "PRR-Talk" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 10:21 PM Subject: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/04/02 PRR-Talk Digest - Friday, January 4, 2002 Re: [PRR] Interchange Cars - MP 10-6 "Pacific" Series by "Andrew S. Miller" PRR / Pullman Plan 9008 10/6 Sleepers by Re: [PRR] M1 by Re: [PRR] M1 by "Jerry Britton" Re: [PRR] Interchange Cars - MP 10-6 "Pacific" Series by "Godfrey Hall" For sale: Athearn Genesis F7 set #9674 by "Rob Schoenberg" Dining Cars in 1950's by "Jerry Britton" pentrex pittsburgh mainlines by "steven hanlon" lettering by "Bill Lane" Re: [PRR] M1 by Re: [PRR] Dining Cars in 1950's by "John F. Ryan, Jr." Re: [PRR] Interchange Cars - MP 10-6 "Pacific" Series by Re: [PRR] Dining Cars in 1950's by "Joe Witcofsky" PRR K5 by Re: [PRR] PRR K5 by "Gary Mittner" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] Interchange Cars - MP 10-6 "Pacific" Series From: "Andrew S. Miller" Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 12:33:18 -0500 All right Jerry, you shamed me into displaying my ignorance. AFAIK the 9008s were the 10-6 plan which ACF built for the PRR. They are in fact, the car which AHM/IHC/Rivarossi makes in HO. As such it is the most prolific 10-6 in HO. Perhaps tat is why no one else makes sides for them. The most common 10-6 in the real world was probably the PS plan 4140. The difference is primarily how the beds are laid out in the bedrooms. A brief clinic (on-line version) on 10-6 identification. 4140s have all BRs with transverse beds. 9008s have BRs with alternating transverse and longitudinal bed. ACF built 9008s have evenly spaced BR windows (look at the Rivarossi car). PS built 10-6s have the BR windows noticeably paired. On 4140's the pairs are evenly spaced, on PS 9008s the pairs are unevenly spaced. Plans for the riveted sides ACF 9008 (not all 9008 were riveted), which includes the MP cars and PRR cars Buffalo Rapids and , appeared in MR about five years ago. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > I fully expect Andy Miller to answer this, but to the list... > > The "Penn Texas" carried four interchange cars. Among them were two 10-6 > cars built by ACF to Pullman Plan 9008 in MP "Eagle" livery. > > Plan 9008 differs from any the PRR had, and I am trying to find appropriate > passenger car sides to build a model...N scale no less! > > Does anyone know what other railroads used this car? > > I've struck out with the usual model side manufacturers: Laser Horizons, > Brass Car Sides, Union Station Products, Des Plaines Hobbies (which has a > Budd "Pacific ___" 10-6), and Marshall Shops (which does all the other MP > "Eagle" cars). > > If nobody knows of sides, does anyone know of published drawings? A long > time ago somebody mentioned a "Mainline Modeler" issue, but they were not > able to provide a reference to what issue. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: PRR / Pullman Plan 9008 10/6 Sleepers From: Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 12:55:39 EST Subject: Interchange Cars - MP 10-6 "Pacific" Series From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 10:48:57 -0500 I fully expect Andy Miller to answer this, but to the list... The "Penn Texas" carried four interchange cars. Among them were two 10-6 cars built by ACF to Pullman Plan 9008 in MP "Eagle" livery. Plan 9008 differs from any the PRR had, and I am trying to find appropriate passenger car sides to build a model...N scale no less! Does anyone know what other railroads used this car? I've struck out with the usual model side manufacturers: Laser Horizons, Brass Car Sides, Union Station Products, Des Plaines Hobbies (which has a Budd "Pacific ___" 10-6), and Marshall Shops (which does all the other MP "Eagle" cars). If nobody knows of sides, does anyone know of published drawings? A long time ago somebody mentioned a "Mainline Modeler" issue, but they were not able to provide a reference to what issue. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry; The plan you are looking for was published in Mainline Modeler July 1995. This particular plan has probably not been produced in a laser/acrylic medium because the cars were of riveted construction. There was a pronounced belt rail and letterboard strip, as well as and 5 vertical butt strips. It resembles a heavyweight car more than a lightweight car. Regards; Brian Butcher PRR 30s-50s 1/160th PRRT&HS #5540 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR-n_scale/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] M1 From: Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 14:59:31 -0500 Is the M1 going to be sidled into the building so she can get a decent cleanup and repainting? Are there any plans to house to other locomotive relics that sit around the turntable? RMPa has some of the most priceless artifacts in rail history. I hate to see them sitting outside in the weather. I'm sure a better MP54 representative could still be found for the museum. When I last saw the PC green hulk at RMPa, couldn't believe how badly rotted it was! Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "I've had a wonderful evening, unfortunately, this wasn't it". -Groucho ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] M1 From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:09:07 -0500 On 1/4/02 2:59 PM, aurora7@juno.com (aurora7@juno.com) wrote: > Is the M1 going to be sidled into the building so she can get a decent > cleanup and repainting? > Are there any plans to house to other locomotive relics that sit around > the turntable? RMPa has some of the most priceless artifacts in rail > history. I hate to see them sitting outside in the weather. I'm sure a > better MP54 representative could still be found for the museum. When I > last saw the PC green hulk at RMPa, couldn't believe how badly rotted it > was! > I am a member of the Friends of the Museum and the following is my "recollection" of reports from "The Milepost", their newsletter... I believe the recent realignment of track in the yard -- which was just completed -- was a precursor to construction of a roundhouse. I believe the roundhouse is the next project. This will get some of those locos out of the elements. Of course, it is only a medium sized turntable, so you won't see the M1 on it! I believe after the roundhouse there are talks of another rolling stock hall. Only question is: Where? There is farmland behind the current site. Perhaps it can be acquired. However, I seem to recall that once off the current museum property it goes downgrade, so some fill would be required. Next issue would be alignment of tracks to reach into the new building. One thing is for sure, what they have done with the current building is first rate. When you want to see restored equipment: Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. When you want to see interpretation: Altoona Railroader's Memorial Museum. Too bad it's not all in one place! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] Interchange Cars - MP 10-6 "Pacific" Series From: "Godfrey Hall" Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:08:34 -0500 List:- Check Jan. 2002 M.R. Page 47. Bobbye Hall's Hobby House sold after 56 yrs. & remains in business as Hall's Hobby House (same address) in Dallas Regards - Godfrey Hall ( no relation ) Jerry Britton wrote: > On 1/4/02 11:19 AM, Norm Bell (nbell@repco.com) wrote: > > > One of Ball's books, I think it is America's Colroful Railroads, has some > > color pictures of one of the Mopac Eagles. It is a sharp color scheme ( > > next to PRR of course). They had some very wide white trim pieces below the > > windows. You might check with Bobbie Hall's Hobby shop in Dallas if it is > > still in business. She imported some Mopac stuff over the years in brass. > > I've heard of Bobbie Hall's. It was just in the news that the shop closed > after 53 (or so) years! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: For sale: Athearn Genesis F7 set #9674 From: "Rob Schoenberg" Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 15:24:09 -0500 Hi all, I hate to post a for sale message but due to a holiday gift buying snafu, I ended up with an extra A/B set of Athearn Genesis F7's. (Got them for a friend who had the audacity to buy them for himself first.) It's the second set they did, #9674A and 9674B. Brand new, never opened. I'm selling the set for the $155 that I paid for them.... (plus shipping) Any takers? Thanks! Rob ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Dining Cars in 1950's From: "Jerry Britton" Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 15:44:20 -0500 Andy Miller and I have been chatting off-list about the 1954 "Penn Texas" consist. This train is one of many that the "New York Division Makeup of Trains" book indicates contains a "Dining Car". Many of the others specify the D85C/D85D twin unit diners, but the "Dining Car" entries bear no further clarification. The trains in question are: St. Louisan Manhattan Limited Liberty Limited (may have been twin unit; not in NY Div. Book) Red Arrow #531 from Baltimore to Harrisburg Indianapolis Limited New Englander Pennsylvania Limited Penn Texas Does anyone have any consist reports that would provide such info? Even with just the diner car number we could figure out which class it was. Andy thinks that the Penn Texas "probably" had a D85A. Based on the drawings list on Rob's site (http://PRR.Railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=din&sz=sm&fr= , which may not be all-inclusive), the possibilities include: D82, Budd, #4500-4501 D82AR, PS D82BR, Budd D82CR, ACF D85A, Budd, #4519-4524 D85AD, Budd, #4525-4526 D85R, Budd Of course there are also the older D70's and D78's. I don't know if they were still in use in 1954 or not. If so, perhaps only on the north-south trains. Any more opinions? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: pentrex pittsburgh mainlines From: "steven hanlon" Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 16:09:37 -0500 just got this in the mail today. what a great video. if you want to see an overview of conrail/csx in pitt, then get this video. -steve ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: lettering From: "Bill Lane" Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 17:47:41 -0500 Hi All, When did the PRR change the color of the lettering of its head-end cars from gold to dulux? 1947? Please copy rwjaxon@earthlink.net in your response. Thanks Bill ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] M1 From: Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 19:18:01 -0500 Jerry: I'm glad to hear that the roundhouse project is aforethought. Housing for the M1, the Camelback, the Nickle Plate Berk, and eventually (I hope) the I1, should be a priority. Getting the M1 into the building should be the #1 project in my opinion. The Museum has done wonderful work to date, though "Rivets" needs to get under cover, no matter who owns her. It's a great collection. Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "I've had a wonderful evening, unfortunately, this wasn't it". -Groucho ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] Dining Cars in 1950's From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 19:30:18 -0500 --------------A8C16DEA38EE512599315DED Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since the trains with twin unit diners show 2 cars in the make-up, I would think it very likely that that the diner listings with 1 car are single units. My 1957 NY Make-Up of Trains shows a two unit diner on the "Penn Texas". John Ryan Jerry Britton wrote: > Andy Miller and I have been chatting off-list about the 1954 "Penn Texas" > consist. > > This train is one of many that the "New York Division Makeup of Trains" book > indicates contains a "Dining Car". Many of the others specify the D85C/D85D > twin unit diners, but the "Dining Car" entries bear no further > clarification. > > The trains in question are: > St. Louisan > Manhattan Limited > Liberty Limited (may have been twin unit; not in NY Div. Book) > Red Arrow > #531 from Baltimore to Harrisburg > Indianapolis Limited > New Englander > Pennsylvania Limited > Penn Texas > > Does anyone have any consist reports that would provide such info? Even with > just the diner car number we could figure out which class it was. > > Andy thinks that the Penn Texas "probably" had a D85A. Based on the drawings > list on Rob's site > (http://PRR.Railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=din&sz=sm&fr= , which > may not be all-inclusive), the possibilities include: > > D82, Budd, #4500-4501 > D82AR, PS > D82BR, Budd > D82CR, ACF > D85A, Budd, #4519-4524 > D85AD, Budd, #4525-4526 > D85R, Budd > > Of course there are also the older D70's and D78's. I don't know if they > were still in use in 1954 or not. If so, perhaps only on the north-south > trains. > > Any more opinions? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------A8C16DEA38EE512599315DED Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since the trains with twin unit diners show 2 cars in the make-up, I would think it very likely that that the diner listings with 1 car are single units.  My 1957 NY Make-Up of Trains shows a two unit diner on the "Penn Texas".

John Ryan

Jerry Britton wrote:

Andy Miller and I have been chatting off-list about the 1954 "Penn Texas"
consist.

This train is one of many that the "New York Division Makeup of Trains" book
indicates contains a "Dining Car". Many of the others specify the D85C/D85D
twin unit diners, but the "Dining Car" entries bear no further
clarification.

The trains in question are:
    St. Louisan
    Manhattan Limited
    Liberty Limited (may have been twin unit; not in NY Div. Book)
    Red Arrow
    #531 from Baltimore to Harrisburg
    Indianapolis Limited
    New Englander
    Pennsylvania Limited
    Penn Texas

Does anyone have any consist reports that would provide such info? Even with
just the diner car number we could figure out which class it was.

Andy thinks that the Penn Texas "probably" had a D85A. Based on the drawings
list on Rob's site
(ht tp://PRR.Railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=din&sz=sm&fr= , which
may not be all-inclusive), the possibilities include:

    D82, Budd, #4500-4501
    D82AR, PS
    D82BR, Budd
    D82CR, ACF
    D85A, Budd, #4519-4524
    D85AD, Budd, #4525-4526
    D85R, Budd

Of course there are also the older D70's and D78's. I don't know if they
were still in use in 1954 or not. If so, perhaps only on the north-south
trains.

Any more opinions?
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products...
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
For brass collectors...
    http://www.brasstrains.net
Free serving of railroad web sites...
    http://www.railfancentral.com

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

--------------A8C16DEA38EE512599315DED-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] Interchange Cars - MP 10-6 "Pacific" Series From: Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 20:51:43 EST Jerry, I do have this plan, and already have it programmed, ready for production in whatever scale. The DL&W purchased cars to this same plan, which went to the E-L after the merger. Regards, Dennis Sautters, Laser Horizons ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] Dining Cars in 1950's From: "Joe Witcofsky" Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2002 21:09:03 -0500 > Any more opinions? A. Sure. Unless the makeup book specified twins (D85C/D85D), A "diner" meant a Lightweight D-82 - D-85 or a modernized D-78. If the makeup book specifies a baggage dorm or dorm lounge, you can safely assume that a single was employed. It should be noted that assignments were sometimes changed. The "Spirit of St. Louis" and the "Texas" swapped diners in the early '60s with #31 getting the single and #3 the twin. Remember, there were only so many D-85 C/d sets. Not nearly enough to cover the entire fleet. Also when a twin was bad ordered, a single would sub for it. Modernized D-78 cars (along with their lightweight cousins) worked east - west trains right up to the end of the PRR, although snack bar coaches began replacing them on #s-22-23-33-50-54-55 in 1966. Trains #s 28-29-48-49-30-31-3-4 retained theirs through their demise or Amtrak, which ever came first. Although by that time, the NYC Budds were the most common diner on the PC. Joe Witcofsky ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 3:44 PM Subject: [PRR] Dining Cars in 1950's > Andy Miller and I have been chatting off-list about the 1954 "Penn Texas" > consist. > > This train is one of many that the "New York Division Makeup of Trains" book > indicates contains a "Dining Car". Many of the others specify the D85C/D85D > twin unit diners, but the "Dining Car" entries bear no further > clarification. > > The trains in question are: > St. Louisan > Manhattan Limited > Liberty Limited (may have been twin unit; not in NY Div. Book) > Red Arrow > #531 from Baltimore to Harrisburg > Indianapolis Limited > New Englander > Pennsylvania Limited > Penn Texas > > Does anyone have any consist reports that would provide such info? Even with > just the diner car number we could figure out which class it was. > > Andy thinks that the Penn Texas "probably" had a D85A. Based on the drawings > list on Rob's site > (http://PRR.Railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=din&sz=sm&fr= , which > may not be all-inclusive), the possibilities include: > > D82, Budd, #4500-4501 > D82AR, PS > D82BR, Budd > D82CR, ACF > D85A, Budd, #4519-4524 > D85AD, Budd, #4525-4526 > D85R, Budd > > Of course there are also the older D70's and D78's. I don't know if they > were still in use in 1954 or not. If so, perhaps only on the north-south > trains. > > Any more opinions? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: PRR K5 From: Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 21:54:00 EST --part1_10c.ac6f04d.2967c4c8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm currently in the process of having my Westside K5 painted. Can anyone tell me if the tender on the K5 had a backup light and if so where was it positioned? I havn't found any pictures showing the rear of the tender. Any help anyone can give me would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Bob Hess --part1_10c.ac6f04d.2967c4c8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm currently in the process of having my Westside K5 painted.  Can anyone tell me if the tender on the K5 had a backup light and if so where was it positioned?  I havn't found any pictures showing the rear of the tender.  Any help anyone can give me would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Bob Hess --part1_10c.ac6f04d.2967c4c8_boundary-- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR K5 From: "Gary Mittner" Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 22:09:50 -0500 (EST) Hi Bob, Good question and good timing. I have photos of the K5 and may try to dig them out to confirm what I seen just today on a Key Imports K5. I seen a Key Import Model of a Modernized K5 on the internet today. Key did not put any Backup Light on the Tender Deck. Usually Key does a fine job on research so they may have done this correct. Will try to get back with you on my findings with my prototype photos.... Gary ---------------------------------------------------------------------- End of PRR-Talk Digest ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2002 21:55:41 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Elderly Pittsburgh maps available online The University of Pittsburgh has several old Pittsburgh maps at digital.library.pitt.edu/maps/ They date from 1872 through 1923. They show railroads, street names, names of businesses. The 1923 layout of the PRR and AVRR produce terminals is mind-boggling. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TJ LInk" Subject: [PRR] re: PRR M-1 & I-1 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 08:49:24 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C1968F.0A94D3E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gentleman, It is a shame that the RR Museum PA is going to the trouble = to build a roundhouse. The collection of Pennsy steamers should be sent = to an actual PRR Roundhouse. I don't know how many are still around, but = I do know where there is one that is in much need of the kind of care = that an organization such as the RR Museum PA has if they will build a = new one! The location is Crestline, Ohio and I know of no other PRR = roundhouse in existence that housed the great PRR steamers that were = sadly not preserved. (J, Q, S, and T classes) This roundhouse is in = horrible condition and if something is not done soon, it will be too = late; it may be too late now, I'm no structural engineer. How fitting if = the place were restored to a working roundhouse to bring back all of the = preserved engines, in working order, and kept at the east end of the = "racetrack", sometimes letting them out to "stretch their legs" on a = little fan trip to Chicago or something! ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C1968F.0A94D3E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gentleman, It is a shame that the RR Museum PA is going to the = trouble to=20 build a roundhouse. The collection of Pennsy steamers should be sent to = an=20 actual PRR Roundhouse. I don't know how many are still around, but I do = know=20 where there is one that is in much need of the kind of care that an = organization=20 such as the RR Museum PA has if they will build a new one! The location = is=20 Crestline, Ohio and I know of no other PRR roundhouse in existence that = housed=20 the great PRR steamers that were sadly not preserved. (J, Q, S, and T = classes)=20 This roundhouse is in horrible condition and if something is not done = soon, it=20 will be too late; it may be too late now, I'm no structural engineer. = How=20 fitting if the place were restored to a working roundhouse to bring back = all of=20 the preserved engines, in working order, and kept at the east end = of the=20 "racetrack", sometimes letting them out to "stretch their legs" on a = little fan=20 trip to Chicago or something!
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C1968F.0A94D3E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 13:29:44 -0500 From: Dale Dembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] re: PRR M-1 & I-1 --------------6B8D4CCAE3F466B873202CAB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TJ, I agree 100%!! Crestline was a highly significant location on the PRR main line. And yet today its majestic roundhouse is ready to collapse from neglect. Unfortunately Ohio is not as concerned about its railroad heritage as Pennsylvania is. No matter what your political affliliation, the folks in Pennsylvania should thank their elected representatives who have listened to the RR community over the years. They have "made it happen" for the RR community. One could argue that the Crestline shop might have been a better site for Steamtown given its historical importance to "The Standard Railroad of the World"; but it's way to late for that discussion. As I recall, apparently there is something stopping the roundhouse from getting status as an historic site and becoming eligible for federal dollars to stabilize/restore the building. I don't know if it is a physical or political problem, or just reluctance on the part of the current owner. It might just be lack of a formal group "adopting" this site as their own concern. Could this roundhouse (or its bricks, which are falling) be used at the RR museum of PA roundhouse? Could this roundhouse be disassembled and rebuilt by those who care? The Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village in Michigan just opened THEIR rebuilt roundhouse, moved from another site. All those years of coal smoke must give those bricks an unbelievable patina that tells quite a story..... Dale TJ LInk wrote: > Gentleman, It is a shame that the RR Museum PA is going to the trouble > to build a roundhouse. The collection of Pennsy steamers should be > sent to an actual PRR Roundhouse. I don't know how many are still > around, but I do know where there is one that is in much need of the > kind of care that an organization such as the RR Museum PA has if they > will build a new one! The location is Crestline, Ohio and I know of no > other PRR roundhouse in existence that housed the great PRR steamers > that were sadly not preserved. (J, Q, S, and T classes) This > roundhouse is in horrible condition and if something is not done soon, > it will be too late; it may be too late now, I'm no structural > engineer. How fitting if the place were restored to a working > roundhouse to bring back all of the preserved engines, in working > order, and kept at the east end of the "racetrack", sometimes letting > them out to "stretch their legs" on a little fan trip to Chicago or > something! --------------6B8D4CCAE3F466B873202CAB Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TJ, I agree 100%!!  Crestline was a highly significant location on the PRR main line. And yet today its majestic roundhouse is ready to collapse from neglect.

Unfortunately Ohio is not as concerned about its railroad heritage as Pennsylvania is.  No matter what your political affliliation, the folks in Pennsylvania should thank their elected representatives who have listened to the RR community over the years. They have "made it happen" for the RR community.

One could argue that the Crestline shop might have been a better site for Steamtown given its historical importance to "The Standard Railroad of the World"; but it's way to late for that discussion.

As I recall, apparently there is something stopping the roundhouse from getting status as an historic site and becoming eligible for federal dollars to stabilize/restore the building.  I don't know if it is a physical or political problem, or just reluctance on the part of the current owner. It might just be lack of a formal group "adopting" this site as their own concern.

Could this roundhouse (or its bricks, which are falling) be used at the RR museum of PA roundhouse?  Could this roundhouse be disassembled and rebuilt by those who care?  The Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village in Michigan just opened THEIR rebuilt roundhouse, moved from another site.  All those years of coal smoke must give those bricks an unbelievable patina that tells quite a story.....

Dale

TJ LInk wrote:

Gentleman, It is a shame that the RR Museum PA is going to the trouble to build a roundhouse. The collection of Pennsy steamers should be sent to an actual PRR Roundhouse. I don't know how many are still around, but I do know where there is one that is in much need of the kind of care that an organization such as the RR Museum PA has if they will build a new one! The location is Crestline, Ohio and I know of no other PRR roundhouse in existence that housed the great PRR steamers that were sadly not preserved. (J, Q, S, and T classes) This roundhouse is in horrible condition and if something is not done soon, it will be too late; it may be too late now, I'm no structural engineer. How fitting if the place were restored to a working roundhouse to bring back all of the preserved engines, in working order, and kept at the east end of the "racetrack", sometimes letting them out to "stretch their legs" on a little fan trip to Chicago or something!
--------------6B8D4CCAE3F466B873202CAB-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Franke" Subject: Re: [PRR] lettering Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 13:50:54 -0500 Bob I just happent to be in the process of painting 3 of these in N scale. PRR paint and lettering always sems to have it's controversy. Thanks for the info. Mark Franke PRR in N scale 50's ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Johnson" To: "Bruce F Smith" Cc: Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 5:51 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] lettering > Bruce, > > Thanks for the information that when the PRR ordered Synthetic Buff > Lettering Enamel from Dupont, what they received was Dupont's Dulux Gold. > Of course, if the PRR ordered the paint from another supplier, it would not > have been called Dulux Gold. Instead of saying that R50B cars were never > lettered Dulux Gold, I should have just said that the words "Dulux Gold" > didn't appear on any PRR lettering drawing or in any other PRR documents. > Using "Dulux Gold" to describe a Pennsy color is just like using "Brunswick > Green" instead of Dark Green Locomotive Enamel. As we all know, the PRR had > their own terminology, which differed from that used by Pullman, other > railroads, and the paint manufacturers. > > Regarding the dates in the R50B discussion, they came from PRR tracings as > follows. Safety Appliance Details came from A-85726 - R50B Arrangement, > A-99709 - R50B Application of Freight Car Safety Appliances, and A-448608 > R50B Arrangement. Paint and Lettering Details came from D-85733 - R50B > Arrangement of Lettering, D-93777 - Spacing of Legends and Numerals, > C-413746 - Painting, Lettering & Numbering Arrangement [Futura] Sheet 1, > C-429417 - Painting, Lettering & Numbering Arrangement [Block] Sheet 1, > F-433145 - Exterior Painting Color Chart, C-65426 - 6" Lettering, C-462062 - > Keystone and Initials "PRR", and C-462292 - Monogram Location Diagrams. > > Bob > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce F Smith" > To: "Bob Johnson" > Cc: > Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 10:30 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] lettering > > > > On Sun, 6 Jan 2002, Bob Johnson wrote: > > > An exception was Class R50B express refrigerator cars. According to PRR > > > Tracing D-85733 these cars were lettered with Gold Leaf as built and in > any > > > repaintings up to 7-9-1936. After that date R50B cars were lettered > with > > > Buff Lettering Color. In 1953 this was changed to Synthetic Buff > Lettering > > > Enamel, which was a change in the paint chemistry, not the color. The > R50B > > > cars were never lettered Dulux Gold. > > > > First, thanks to Bob for an excellent review of lettering color, and under > > seperate cover, the different modificaions of the R50B. I will disagree > > with one small point...Synthetic Buff Lettering Enamel, as supplied by the > > Dupont Company IS Dulux Gold. The intermediate "Imitation Gold" color was > > an attempt to stop the use of real gold, after personal possession was > > made illegal in the United States. > > > > In addition, I'm curious about the very precise dates listed in your > > discussion of the R50B...where did these come from? > > > > Happy Rails > > Bruce > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl M." Subject: Re: [PRR] re: PRR M-1 & I-1 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 14:13:39 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C196BC.56B97FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dale; I am one of the crew tossing around the idea of what can be done with = the Crest roundhouse. I was "recruited" by Matt Link who's enthusism is = boundless for the roundhouse! I have been in the facility twice in the last 3 months taking pictures = and measurements. The good thing is a heck of a lot of drawings on the = place have just come to light and are available. The company that built = the place (and the Canton Roundhouse, same type of "PRR Type A = Roundhouse", no mention of it being a USRA design) is still in business = and is reported to still have the drawings! The steel beams of the place look to me to still be in VERY good shape, = no rusting that I could see. The brick vaneer has sagged or fallen down = here and there and most of the windows are kaput and the doors are gone. = The rails are mostly gone but the huge steam "hoods" are still hanging = and look to be in very good shape. The existing bricks could be reused = and the wooden floor blocks could be cleaned or replaced. They still = smell of cinders! They appear to be made of cast asbestos assuming there = is such a process. My humble opinion is that it could be restored and or = moved and restored by a dedicated group of volunteers. That is said with = the fact of the proper organization in place to facilitate all this. I = don't think this roundhouse in itself is a goner by any means. The = current owner has cleaned out a lot of "junk" that was stored in there = over the years since abandenment in 1968. The turntable is gone but the = 110' pit is still there of course..... I think rescuing this roundhouse is achievable but as don't know how to = go about it. Earl Myers Louisville, Ohio ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dale Dembinski=20 To: TJ LInk=20 Cc: Jerry Britton ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] re: PRR M-1 & I-1 TJ, I agree 100%!! Crestline was a highly significant location on the = PRR main line. And yet today its majestic roundhouse is ready to = collapse from neglect.=20 Unfortunately Ohio is not as concerned about its railroad heritage as = Pennsylvania is. No matter what your political affliliation, the folks = in Pennsylvania should thank their elected representatives who have = listened to the RR community over the years. They have "made it happen" = for the RR community.=20 One could argue that the Crestline shop might have been a better site = for Steamtown given its historical importance to "The Standard Railroad = of the World"; but it's way to late for that discussion.=20 As I recall, apparently there is something stopping the roundhouse = from getting status as an historic site and becoming eligible for = federal dollars to stabilize/restore the building. I don't know if it = is a physical or political problem, or just reluctance on the part of = the current owner. It might just be lack of a formal group "adopting" = this site as their own concern.=20 Could this roundhouse (or its bricks, which are falling) be used at = the RR museum of PA roundhouse? Could this roundhouse be disassembled = and rebuilt by those who care? The Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield = Village in Michigan just opened THEIR rebuilt roundhouse, moved from = another site. All those years of coal smoke must give those bricks an = unbelievable patina that tells quite a story.....=20 Dale=20 TJ LInk wrote:=20 Gentleman, It is a shame that the RR Museum PA is going to the = trouble to build a roundhouse. The collection of Pennsy steamers should = be sent to an actual PRR Roundhouse. I don't know how many are still = around, but I do know where there is one that is in much need of the = kind of care that an organization such as the RR Museum PA has if they = will build a new one! The location is Crestline, Ohio and I know of no = other PRR roundhouse in existence that housed the great PRR steamers = that were sadly not preserved. (J, Q, S, and T classes) This roundhouse = is in horrible condition and if something is not done soon, it will be = too late; it may be too late now, I'm no structural engineer. How = fitting if the place were restored to a working roundhouse to bring back = all of the preserved engines, in working order, and kept at the east end = of the "racetrack", sometimes letting them out to "stretch their legs" = on a little fan trip to Chicago or something! ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C196BC.56B97FA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dale;
 I am one of the crew tossing = around the idea=20 of what can be done with the Crest roundhouse. I was "recruited" by Matt = Link=20 who's enthusism is boundless for the roundhouse!
 I have been in the facility twice = in the last=20 3 months taking pictures and measurements. The good thing is a heck of a = lot of=20 drawings on the place have just come to light and are available. The = company=20 that built the place (and the Canton Roundhouse, same type of "PRR Type = A=20 Roundhouse", no mention of it being a USRA design) is still in business = and is=20 reported to still have the drawings!
 The steel beams of the place look = to me to=20 still be in VERY good shape, no rusting that I could see. The brick = vaneer has=20 sagged or fallen down here and there and most of the windows are kaput = and the=20 doors are gone. The rails are mostly gone but the huge steam "hoods" are = still=20 hanging and look to be in very good shape. The existing bricks could be = reused=20 and the wooden floor blocks could be cleaned or replaced. They still = smell of=20 cinders! They appear to be made of cast asbestos assuming there is such = a=20 process. My humble opinion is that it could be restored and or moved and = restored by a dedicated group of volunteers. That is said with the fact = of the=20 proper organization in place to facilitate all this. I don't think this=20 roundhouse in itself is a goner by any means. The current owner has = cleaned out=20 a lot of "junk" that was stored in there over the years since = abandenment in=20 1968. The turntable is gone but the 110' pit is still there of=20 course.....
 I think rescuing this roundhouse = is=20 achievable but as don't know how to go about it.
Earl Myers
Louisville, Ohio
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dale Dembinski
To: TJ LInk
Cc: Jerry Britton ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 = 1:29=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] re: PRR M-1 = &=20 I-1

TJ, I agree 100%!!  Crestline was a highly = significant=20 location on the PRR main line. And yet today its majestic roundhouse = is ready=20 to collapse from neglect.=20

Unfortunately Ohio is not as concerned about its railroad heritage = as=20 Pennsylvania is.  No matter what your political affliliation, the = folks=20 in Pennsylvania should thank their elected representatives who have = listened=20 to the RR community over the years. They have "made it happen" for the = RR=20 community.=20

One could argue that the Crestline shop might have been a better = site for=20 Steamtown given its historical importance to "The Standard Railroad of = the=20 World"; but it's way to late for that discussion.=20

As I recall, apparently there is something stopping the roundhouse = from=20 getting status as an historic site and becoming eligible for federal = dollars=20 to stabilize/restore the building.  I don't know if it is a = physical or=20 political problem, or just reluctance on the part of the current = owner. It=20 might just be lack of a formal group "adopting" this site as their own = concern.=20

Could this roundhouse (or its bricks, which are falling) be used at = the RR=20 museum of PA roundhouse?  Could this roundhouse be disassembled = and=20 rebuilt by those who care?  The Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield = Village=20 in Michigan just opened THEIR rebuilt roundhouse, moved from another=20 site.  All those years of coal smoke must give those bricks an=20 unbelievable patina that tells quite a story.....=20

Dale=20

TJ LInk wrote:=20

Gentleman, It is a shame that the RR Museum PA is going to the = trouble to=20 build a roundhouse. The collection of Pennsy steamers should be sent = to an=20 actual PRR Roundhouse. I don't know how many are still around, but I = do know=20 where there is one that is in much need of the kind of care that an=20 organization such as the RR Museum PA has if they will build a new = one! The=20 location is Crestline, Ohio and I know of no other PRR roundhouse in = existence that housed the great PRR steamers that were sadly not = preserved.=20 (J, Q, S, and T classes) This roundhouse is in horrible condition = and if=20 something is not done soon, it will be too late; it may be too late = now, I'm=20 no structural engineer. How fitting if the place were restored to a = working=20 roundhouse to bring back all of the preserved engines, in working = order, and=20 kept at the east end of the "racetrack", sometimes letting them out = to=20 "stretch their legs" on a little fan trip to Chicago or=20 something!
------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C196BC.56B97FA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 14:24:17 EST Subject: [PRR] CRESTLINE In a message dated 1/6/02 1:44:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, ddembinski@centurytel.net writes: << Crestline was a highly significant location on the PRR main line. And yet today its majestic roundhouse is ready to collapse from neglect. >> "YOUSE GUYS" seem to be overlooking several salient facts: 1.) The State of Pa OWNS the M-1 - It's not leaving the state. 2.) The WNYRHS OWNS THE I-1 - It's not going anywhere, unless you have a Hudson to swap for it. 3.) Very few people, even on this board, care about Crestline. More than 50% of serious Pennsy fans live East of Strasburg - most of them seem to believe that the line ended in a reverse loop around Cresson - with a few runbys in Pittsburgh and terminal facilities in Chicago - in most Pennsy books, Ohio and Indianna are barely mentioned - if at all. 4.) "Saving" a structure is an expensive proposition - and then there's the question of maintaining it - The "Locals don't seem to care. I haven't seen anybody, here, offering to cover the costs. In addition, a railroad yard or roundhouse is, most likely, a toxic waste hazard - and if you restore/remodel it you'll need to bring it up to all current standards - including handicap access... My grandfather was a Pennsy man for more than 50 years, ran into Crestline a lot. As far as he was concerned, it was a job. When Penn Central ran into problems after the merger he said "Pave it" - I think he'd probably say the same thing about Crestline - Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 12:20:51 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: Re: [PRR] CRESTLINE is boring "3.) Very few people, even on this board, care about Crestline." How true. I have no idea why C?Crestline occupies such a significant place in Peensy heritage. For the thousands of SPFs, out here in the land of the REAL Pennsylvania Railroad we're known as Serious Pennsy Fans, it's only the "More than 50% of serious Pennsy fans" who "live East of Strasburg - most of them seem to believe that the line ended in a reverse loop around Cresson - with a few runbys in Pittsburgh and terminal facilities in Chicago" Who're known as the slobbering Pennsy Freaks because they have such a narrow and parochial view of this nation's greatest railroad. "- in most Pennsy books, Ohio and Indiana are barely mentioned - if at all.-" And that was by design because we didn't want to be embarrassed by those Lines Easterners wandering around here pestering our friends and neighbors with questions' like "Where's the catenary," "Whadduhya mean you don't know what a GG1 is," or "This can't be a main line. There's only a single track." Those Lines West Pennsy fans weren't interested in Crest line that much because there were better places for train watching, Richmond, Ind.; Xenia, Ohio; Marion, Ohio, all come to mind. Then there was the massive but now vanished Panhandle yards and facilities -- like the double roundhouse at the Sinclair Avenue Engine house northeast of the company's corporate headquarters and three massive yards on the north side of that city's central business district and the P Co.'s yards and facilities in Fort Wayne. (only eastern SPFs who couldn't tell the difference between Massilon, Morrow or Madison called the P Co. "the Fort Wayne System." Urbana, Ohio, was a far more interesting place to train watch than Crestline. PRR Lines West Forever! Real Railroads didn't use catenary! Tom V. -- VVA249@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/6/02 1:44:18 PM Eastern > Standard Time, > ddembinski@centurytel.net writes: > > << Crestline was a highly significant location on > the PRR main line. And yet > today its majestic roundhouse is ready to collapse > from neglect. >> > > "YOUSE GUYS" seem to be overlooking several salient > facts: > > 1.) The State of Pa OWNS the M-1 - It's not leaving > the state. > 2.) The WNYRHS OWNS THE I-1 - It's not going > anywhere, unless you have a > Hudson to swap for it. > 3.) Very few people, even on this board, care about > Crestline. More than 50% > of serious Pennsy fans live East of Strasburg - most > of them seem to believe > that the line ended in a reverse loop around Cresson > - with a few runbys in > Pittsburgh and terminal facilities in Chicago - in > most Pennsy books, Ohio > and Indianna are barely mentioned - if at all. > 4.) "Saving" a structure is an expensive proposition > - and then there's the > question of maintaining it - > The "Locals don't seem to care. > I haven't seen anybody, here, offering to cover > the costs. In addition, a > railroad yard or roundhouse is, most likely, a toxic > waste hazard - and if > you restore/remodel it you'll need to bring it up to > all current standards - > including handicap access... > > My grandfather was a Pennsy man for more than 50 > years, ran into > Crestline a lot. As far as he was concerned, it was > a job. When Penn Central > ran into problems after the merger he said "Pave it" > - I think he'd probably > say the same thing about Crestline - > > Dick Ross > Cleveland > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TJ LInk" Subject: Re: [PRR] re: PRR M-1 & I-1 Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 15:55:44 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C196CA.99749880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dale, First of all, a little clarification. My wife's name is TJ mine is = Matt. A common mistake because she set up Outlook Express and used her = name instead of both of ours, and I'm too computer stupid to know how to = change it without launching our nukes against Russia. All comedy aside, = let's talk PENNSY: I live .5 miles west of Galion, Ohio. 5-7 minutes drive from my = house is the object of our concern. Earl Myers has made a few trips over = here and we've been taking pictures. I do not know who to contact in the = state of Ohio, or at the national level to get an assessment of the = possibility of restoration. Rumor has it, " that this has been done, but = the environmental contamination is so great, nothing will be done." but = I can find no concrete proof of this. I would love to have some kind of = formal group organized, but my measly 26 years of age has never been a = part of or knows how to start one. I'm sure that there is someone out = there on PRR Talk reading this right now that would know what to do. = I've been interested in this thing since I was about 8 yet no-one else = has seemed to care to do anything. I'm talking about the people that = know where to get the means to an end. To all reading this: if you can = or want to help, E-mail me. I'll add you to the list of the "roundhouse = gang" (phrase coined by Earl Myers) Chef@richnet.net I'll sort all of = this out somehow. Dale, thank you for your interest. Matt Link (former = resident of Crestline) Galion, Ohio ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dale Dembinski=20 To: TJ LInk=20 Cc: Jerry Britton ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] re: PRR M-1 & I-1 TJ, I agree 100%!! Crestline was a highly significant location on the = PRR main line. And yet today its majestic roundhouse is ready to = collapse from neglect.=20 Unfortunately Ohio is not as concerned about its railroad heritage as = Pennsylvania is. No matter what your political affliliation, the folks = in Pennsylvania should thank their elected representatives who have = listened to the RR community over the years. They have "made it happen" = for the RR community.=20 One could argue that the Crestline shop might have been a better site = for Steamtown given its historical importance to "The Standard Railroad = of the World"; but it's way to late for that discussion.=20 As I recall, apparently there is something stopping the roundhouse = from getting status as an historic site and becoming eligible for = federal dollars to stabilize/restore the building. I don't know if it = is a physical or political problem, or just reluctance on the part of = the current owner. It might just be lack of a formal group "adopting" = this site as their own concern.=20 Could this roundhouse (or its bricks, which are falling) be used at = the RR museum of PA roundhouse? Could this roundhouse be disassembled = and rebuilt by those who care? The Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield = Village in Michigan just opened THEIR rebuilt roundhouse, moved from = another site. All those years of coal smoke must give those bricks an = unbelievable patina that tells quite a story.....=20 Dale=20 TJ LInk wrote:=20 Gentleman, It is a shame that the RR Museum PA is going to the = trouble to build a roundhouse. The collection of Pennsy steamers should = be sent to an actual PRR Roundhouse. I don't know how many are still = around, but I do know where there is one that is in much need of the = kind of care that an organization such as the RR Museum PA has if they = will build a new one! The location is Crestline, Ohio and I know of no = other PRR roundhouse in existence that housed the great PRR steamers = that were sadly not preserved. (J, Q, S, and T classes) This roundhouse = is in horrible condition and if something is not done soon, it will be = too late; it may be too late now, I'm no structural engineer. How = fitting if the place were restored to a working roundhouse to bring back = all of the preserved engines, in working order, and kept at the east end = of the "racetrack", sometimes letting them out to "stretch their legs" = on a little fan trip to Chicago or something! ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C196CA.99749880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dale,
    First of all, a little clarification. My wife's = name is=20 TJ mine is Matt. A common mistake because she set up Outlook Express and = used=20 her name instead of both of ours, and I'm too computer stupid to know = how to=20 change it without launching our nukes against Russia. All comedy aside, = let's=20 talk PENNSY:
    I live .5 miles west of Galion, Ohio. 5-7 = minutes drive=20 from my house is the object of our concern. Earl Myers has made a few = trips over=20 here and we've been taking pictures. I do not know who to contact in the = state=20 of Ohio, or at the national level to get an assessment of the = possibility of=20 restoration. Rumor has it, " that this has been done, but the = environmental=20 contamination is so great, nothing will be done." but I can find no = concrete=20 proof of this. I would love to have some kind of formal group organized, = but my=20 measly 26 years of age has never been a part of or knows how to start = one. I'm=20 sure that there is someone out there on PRR Talk reading this right now = that=20 would know what to do. I've been interested in this thing since I was = about 8=20 yet no-one else has seemed to care to do anything. I'm talking about the = people=20 that know where to get the means to an end. To all reading this: if you = can or=20 want to help, E-mail me. I'll add you to the list of the "roundhouse = gang"=20 (phrase coined by Earl Myers) Chef@richnet.net I'll sort all of = this out=20 somehow.
Dale, thank you for your interest.
            =    =20             =    =20             Matt=20 Link    (former resident of Crestline)
            =    =20             =    =20             Galion, = Ohio
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dale Dembinski
To: TJ LInk
Cc: Jerry Britton ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 = 1:29=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] re: PRR M-1 = &=20 I-1

TJ, I agree 100%!!  Crestline was a highly = significant=20 location on the PRR main line. And yet today its majestic roundhouse = is ready=20 to collapse from neglect.=20

Unfortunately Ohio is not as concerned about its railroad heritage = as=20 Pennsylvania is.  No matter what your political affliliation, the = folks=20 in Pennsylvania should thank their elected representatives who have = listened=20 to the RR community over the years. They have "made it happen" for the = RR=20 community.=20

One could argue that the Crestline shop might have been a better = site for=20 Steamtown given its historical importance to "The Standard Railroad of = the=20 World"; but it's way to late for that discussion.=20

As I recall, apparently there is something stopping the roundhouse = from=20 getting status as an historic site and becoming eligible for federal = dollars=20 to stabilize/restore the building.  I don't know if it is a = physical or=20 political problem, or just reluctance on the part of the current = owner. It=20 might just be lack of a formal group "adopting" this site as their own = concern.=20

Could this roundhouse (or its bricks, which are falling) be used at = the RR=20 museum of PA roundhouse?  Could this roundhouse be disassembled = and=20 rebuilt by those who care?  The Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield = Village=20 in Michigan just opened THEIR rebuilt roundhouse, moved from another=20 site.  All those years of coal smoke must give those bricks an=20 unbelievable patina that tells quite a story.....=20

Dale=20

TJ LInk wrote:=20

Gentleman, It is a shame that the RR Museum PA is going to the = trouble to=20 build a roundhouse. The collection of Pennsy steamers should be sent = to an=20 actual PRR Roundhouse. I don't know how many are still around, but I = do know=20 where there is one that is in much need of the kind of care that an=20 organization such as the RR Museum PA has if they will build a new = one! The=20 location is Crestline, Ohio and I know of no other PRR roundhouse in = existence that housed the great PRR steamers that were sadly not = preserved.=20 (J, Q, S, and T classes) This roundhouse is in horrible condition = and if=20 something is not done soon, it will be too late; it may be too late = now, I'm=20 no structural engineer. How fitting if the place were restored to a = working=20 roundhouse to bring back all of the preserved engines, in working = order, and=20 kept at the east end of the "racetrack", sometimes letting them out = to=20 "stretch their legs" on a little fan trip to Chicago or=20 something!
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C196CA.99749880-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 16:00:31 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] GP-7 and GP-9 question On Sun, 6 Jan 2002, Ted Andrews wrote: > PRR Listers: > > I have a question that I hope will not open a can of worms. :0 > > Did every GP-7 and GP-9 ordered by the Pennsy come equipped with > train-phone antennas? I know that the GP-9B's did not come with antennas > for obvious reasons. If not all GP-7 / GP-9's were equipped with > antennas, what was the rational in not having antennas on all of the > engines? I don't think anyone ever found a picture of a "phase 3" GP9 with a trainphone antenna. I don't know of a list. When I have more time I might be able to go to my notes, I know I have some from prior investigation. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] GP-7 and GP-9 question Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 16:01:49 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C196CB.7307C0E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable PRR Listers: I have a question that I hope will not open a can of worms. :0 Did every GP-7 and GP-9 ordered by the Pennsy come equipped with train-ph= one antennas? I know that the GP-9B's did not come with antennas for obvi= ous reasons. If not all GP-7 / GP-9's were equipped with antennas, what w= as the rational in not having antennas on all of the engines? =20 Is there a list compiled somewhere showing the have's and the have not's = as far as antennas on GP-7's and GP-9's are concerned. Thank you in advan= ce for any information. Ted Andrews =20 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C196CB.7307C0E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
PRR Listers:
 
I have a question that I hope will not open a= can of worms. :0
 
Did every GP-7 and GP-9 or= dered by the Pennsy come equipped with train-phone antennas? I know that = the GP-9B's did not come with antennas for obvious reasons. If not all GP= -7 / GP-9's were equipped with antennas, what was the rational in not hav= ing antennas on all of the engines?
 
Is ther= e a list compiled somewhere showing the have's and the have not's as= far as antennas on GP-7's and GP-9's are concerned. Thank you in ad= vance for any information.
 
 
Ted Andrews 

------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C196CB.7307C0E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 16:56:24 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Westerfield Camp Cars --part1_bc.1f8a4828.296a2208_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm getting ready to do a set of the Westerfield camp cars. I want to work from photo's if possible. Can anyone recommend a place that I might be able to find these to match the Westerfield cars? I'm modeling 1957, my assumption is that I need to do a mixture of yellow and gray paint schemes. I'm I correct in thinking this way? TIA Todd Horton --part1_bc.1f8a4828.296a2208_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm getting ready to do a set of the Westerfield camp cars. I want to work from photo's if possible. Can anyone recommend a place that I might be able to find these to match the Westerfield cars? I'm modeling 1957, my assumption is that I need to do a mixture of yellow and gray paint schemes. I'm I correct in thinking this way? TIA Todd Horton

--part1_bc.1f8a4828.296a2208_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] P-70fbR Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 16:00:18 -0600 Steve's point is well taken. I've seen the P-70 combine converted into a credible B&O model, which used 6 wheel trucks. -----Original Message----- From: Steve Hoxie [mailto:steveh@dotstar.net] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 6:58 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] P-70fbR Evan and Eddie--A quick look in my "Passenger Equipment of the Pennsylvania Railroad Vol. 1: Coaches" shows P70fbR coaches in both clerestory and arch roofs. All have a four wheel truck type known as 2E-P5, which looks like the Commonwealth style with a dampner on the outside, but not the normal PRR passenger truck. Several years ago this truck was available from ECW if you got the right kit, but I don't know the current situation. No six wheel trucks. ECW is indeed very accurate with their models, but then marketing takes over. They of course are in business to make money and have chosen to sell any combination of parts anyone wants to buy. Most manufacturers do this, with the notable, but not perfect, exceptions of P2K and Branchline. It is up to the modeler to be informed. There is nothing wrong with taking a book or photo to the store. Or ask on this list--somebody will know. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 17:22:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] CRESTLINE is boring "REAL RAILROADS DON"T USE CATENARY" Tom, how could you say such a thing. That really hurt. OOOUCH!!! Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 17:24:49 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] CRESTLINE salvage From: aurora7@juno.com At the very least, a section of model brickwork and the steam servicing artifacts might be collected and preserved before demolision takes place. Anything that is recognizably Pennsy should be salvaged for it's extrinsic value. For that matter, could bricks be savaged, coated with preservative and sold for $% + postage in order to benefit the Pennsy collection? Furthermore, an organized archaeological search of the shops and surrounding servicing area for artifacts might reveal some wonderful treasures. SInce bulldozers are not too delicate in turning the land, little of the artifact context would be risked. What might be turned up by a serious group of historians? Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "I've had a wonderful evening, unfortunately, this wasn't it". -Groucho ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "steven hanlon" Subject: Re: [PRR] scanner recommendations Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 17:28:39 -0500 i endup taking the gre built scanner back and geeting an older uniden built model (they had 2 left over in stock). i already had the nice metl whip antenna and this did not help matters. i got to the train watching locale of choice and man, i had the ballgame on. the "new" uniden is missing the pre-set police and fire channels, but i'd rather just have my own freqs programmed thank you very much. i was out today with the family driving to the northside of baltimore along route 40 and the NEC and got some great audio of the crews discussing the lack of snow and the large amount of rain. very funny stuff. didn't hear any defect detectors. thanks for all the help from everyone and a big thanks to jerry for not squelching this thread. -steve hanlon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 17:47:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] The PRR Mainline ends in Pittsburgh! PRR Talk Gang, I'll be the first to admit that like most Lines East fans, the PRR ends in Pittsburgh. Sorry Lines West guys, but growing up in Philadelphia within a forest of catenary will do that to you. For some PRR fans, the Mainline ends at the "A.C. MOTOR STOP" signs in Enola Yards. And it does seem that most Pennsy books don't go past Pittsburgh. Four track main lines and catenary is where the action is. Lines West? I'm slowly learning about the Lines West part of the PRR. But two tracks and no catenary is hard to digest. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 17:20:25 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] The PRR Mainline ends in Pittsburgh! And I always thought that the real PRR ended in Pittsburgh with reverse loops to head back to St. Louis/Chicago. Long live Lines West. Randy At 05:47 PM 1/6/2002 -0500, Dave Hopson wrote: > PRR Talk Gang, > > I'll be the first to admit that like most Lines East fans, the >PRR ends in Pittsburgh. Sorry Lines West guys, but growing up in >Philadelphia within a forest of catenary will do that to you. > For some PRR fans, the Mainline ends at the "A.C. MOTOR STOP" >signs in Enola Yards. >And it does seem that most Pennsy books don't go past Pittsburgh. Four >track main lines and catenary is where the action is. Lines West? > I'm slowly learning about the Lines West part of the PRR. But two >tracks and no catenary >is hard to digest. > > Dave Hopson > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 18:55:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] The PRR Mainline ends in Pittsburgh! In a message dated 1/6/02 6:00:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: << But two tracks and no catenary is hard to digest. >> Just keep thinking about that 127 mph speed record (alledged, anyway) with a hand-fired Atlantic and you get a whole new appreciation of the fairly flat, fairl straight Lines West. In my youth I rode the Pennsy from Ohio to Chicago and from Ohio to NYC on numerous occasions. I suspect I am not alone in appreciating the WHOLE Pennsy. Lee ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 19:00:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] The PRR Mainline ends in Pittsburgh! Well don't get the folks in Altoona started. The PRR mainline ends at Gallitzin with hidden reverse loops under the town of Cresson! Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 19:24:24 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] The PRR Mainline ends in Pittsburgh! In a message dated 1/6/02 7:06:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: << The PRR mainline ends at Gallitzin with hidden reverse loops under the town of Cresson! >> When asked about "Brunswick Green" an old "Lines Westerner" replied "Is that what they used on those east end electrics?" RR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 19:26:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] The PRR Mainline ends in Pittsburgh! Lee, I do appreciate the entire PRR system. Love every single mile. I love it even more when catenary is hung over it. If this was the "good ol' days" of the Pennsy, I would get you a comfy lawn chair and invite you to park yourself at THORN tower and watch the parade of trains. Sorry, no high speed run by's here. But watching trains come off the P&T Branch (to me) is pure 100% Pennsy. Lines West? Well I guess it's not a good idea to wear my PRRT&HS name badge west of Pittsburgh after this thread! just havin' fun.....Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TJ LInk" Subject: [PRR] East vs. west Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 19:39:55 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C196E9.EB1EDFA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Come on guys! Why bicker about which lines were best, east or west? I'm = a PRR fan no matter where it is! I just happen to love right where I = grew up: Crestline. If I had grown up in the east, I'd like it there as = well as west. This seems to be childish, if you guys don't want to help = preserve a PRR Roundhouse, fine! No one has spoken up as to the location = of any other EXISTING PRR roundhouses, so I will assume Crestline is it. = Sad a thing like this will be gone because of people who think like = "Real Railroads didn't use catenary!" Also, who cares if we had = electrics or not. If I wanted to be a part of something like this, I'd = go watch a high school sports game and act like the parents. This is not = meant to offend anyone personally, only to bring to light silly lines of = thought that obscure what is really important. "Remembering the = PENNSY for what it was: The greatest = railroad of a day gone by" = Matt Link ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C196E9.EB1EDFA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Come on guys! Why bicker about which lines were best, east or west? = I'm a=20 PRR fan no matter where it is! I just happen to love right where I grew = up:=20 Crestline. If I had grown up in the east, I'd like it there as well as = west.=20 This seems to be childish, if you guys don't want to help preserve a PRR = Roundhouse, fine! No one has spoken up as to the location of any other = EXISTING=20 PRR roundhouses, so I will assume Crestline is it. Sad a thing like this = will be=20 gone because of people who think like "Real Railroads didn't use = catenary!"=20 Also, who cares if we had electrics or not. If I wanted to be a part of=20 something like this, I'd go watch a high school sports game and act like = the=20 parents. This is not meant to offend anyone personally, only to bring to = light=20 silly lines of thought that obscure what is really important.
            =    =20             =    =20             =    =20     "Remembering the PENNSY for what it was:
           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;       The=20 greatest railroad of a day gone by"
            =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             Matt=20 Link
------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C196E9.EB1EDFA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] re: PRR M-1 & I-1 Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 00:48:34 +0000 Gentlemen: When Crestline, or any other railroad locale can come up with an environment that will bring tens of thousands of visitors to the area, (other than railfans), they may have a chance. If they can reproduce a Strasburg Railway nearby, perhaps have the family draw of the Amish country of Lancaster County, and be within a day's drive of metropoli that count thier population in the tens of millions, they will have someone to pay for all those dreams. If you wait and moan the dearth of enough railfans to do the job and can't come up with the scratch, you will wait forever. Let's get on with those things which may be possible. > TJ, I agree 100%!! Crestline was a highly significant location on the > PRR main line. And yet today its majestic roundhouse is ready to > collapse from neglect. > > Unfortunately Ohio is not as concerned about its railroad heritage as > Pennsylvania is. No matter what your political affliliation, the folks > in Pennsylvania should thank their elected representatives who have > listened to the RR community over the years. They have "made it happen" > for the RR community. > > One could argue that the Crestline shop might have been a better site > for Steamtown given its historical importance to "The Standard Railroad > of the World"; but it's way to late for that discussion. > > As I recall, apparently there is something stopping the roundhouse from > getting status as an historic site and becoming eligible for federal > dollars to stabilize/restore the building. I don't know if it is a > physical or political problem, or just reluctance on the part of the > current owner. It might just be lack of a formal group "adopting" this > site as their own concern. > > Could this roundhouse (or its bricks, which are falling) be used at the > RR museum of PA roundhouse? Could this roundhouse be disassembled and > rebuilt by those who care? The Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village > in Michigan just opened THEIR rebuilt roundhouse, moved from another > site. All those years of coal smoke must give those bricks an > unbelievable patina that tells quite a story..... > > Dale > > TJ LInk wrote: > > > Gentleman, It is a shame that the RR Museum PA is going to the trouble > > to build a roundhouse. The collection of Pennsy steamers should be > > sent to an actual PRR Roundhouse. I don't know how many are still > > around, but I do know where there is one that is in much need of the > > kind of care that an organization such as the RR Museum PA has if they > > will build a new one! The location is Crestline, Ohio and I know of no > > other PRR roundhouse in existence that housed the great PRR steamers > > that were sadly not preserved. (J, Q, S, and T classes) This > > roundhouse is in horrible condition and if something is not done soon, > > it will be too late; it may be too late now, I'm no structural > > engineer. How fitting if the place were restored to a working > > roundhouse to bring back all of the preserved engines, in working > > order, and kept at the east end of the "racetrack", sometimes letting > > them out to "stretch their legs" on a little fan trip to Chicago or > > something! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Cullen" Subject: RE: [PRR] East vs. west Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 19:54:50 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C196EC.0065BBC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit East or West the PRR is Best Enough said. Jim ----------------------------------------------- Elizabeth & Austin Divisions of the PRR http://members.tripod.com/jimcullen Jim's Railroad Pictures http://www.geocities.com/jimcullen -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of TJ LInk Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 7:40 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] East vs. west Come on guys! Why bicker about which lines were best, east or west? I'm a PRR fan no matter where it is! I just happen to love right where I grew up: Crestline. If I had grown up in the east, I'd like it there as well as west. This seems to be childish, if you guys don't want to help preserve a PRR Roundhouse, fine! No one has spoken up as to the location of any other EXISTING PRR roundhouses, so I will assume Crestline is it. Sad a thing like this will be gone because of people who think like "Real Railroads didn't use catenary!" Also, who cares if we had electrics or not. If I wanted to be a part of something like this, I'd go watch a high school sports game and act like the parents. This is not meant to offend anyone personally, only to bring to light silly lines of thought that obscure what is really important. "Remembering the PENNSY for what it was: The greatest railroad of a day gone by" Matt Link ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C196EC.0065BBC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
East or = West
the PRR is=20 Best 
 
Enough=20 said.
 
Jim

 -----------------------------------------------
Elizabe= th &=20 Austin Divisions of the PRR
http://members.tripod.com/jimcullen

Jim's = Railroad=20 Pictures
http://www.geocities.com/jimcullen =20

 -----Original = Message-----
From:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of TJ=20 LInk
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 7:40 PM
To:=20 PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: [PRR] East vs. = west

Come on guys! Why bicker about which lines were best, east or = west? I'm a=20 PRR fan no matter where it is! I just happen to love right where I = grew up:=20 Crestline. If I had grown up in the east, I'd like it there as well as = west.=20 This seems to be childish, if you guys don't want to help preserve a = PRR=20 Roundhouse, fine! No one has spoken up as to the location of any other = EXISTING PRR roundhouses, so I will assume Crestline is it. Sad a = thing like=20 this will be gone because of people who think like "Real Railroads = didn't use=20 catenary!" Also, who cares if we had electrics or not. If I wanted to = be a=20 part of something like this, I'd go watch a high school sports game = and act=20 like the parents. This is not meant to offend anyone personally, only = to bring=20 to light silly lines of thought that obscure what is really = important.
           =20             =    =20             =    =20         "Remembering the PENNSY for what = it=20 was:
=
           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;       The=20 greatest railroad of a day gone by"
           =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20             =    =20 Matt Link
------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C196EC.0065BBC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: [PRR] Re:[PRR]lettering Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 20:03:32 -0500 Bruce, Bill and List: The lettering color used on PRR passenger cars is a bit more complex subject than was indicated. According to PRR Tracing C-413746, Gold Leaf was changed to Imitation Gold on 4-19-1939. It was changed back to Gold Leaf on 7-13-1939. According to Tracing F-433145, Gold Leaf was changed to Imitation Gold Enamel on 10-6-1952. PRR "Paint Specifications for General Maintenance and New Construction", dated 3-23-1953, changed the lettering color for passenger car lettering to Synthetic Buff Lettering Enamel. Note that PRR didn't use the term Dulux Gold. Dulux was and is a trademark of the DuPont Corp. It is possible that, when the PRR bought Imitation Gold Enamel, one of the suppliers may have been DuPont and the paint they supplied may have been called Dulux Gold. Other paint suppliers couldn't legally have called it that. An exception was Class R50B express refrigerator cars. According to PRR Tracing D-85733 these cars were lettered with Gold Leaf as built and in any repaintings up to 7-9-1936. After that date R50B cars were lettered with Buff Lettering Color. In 1953 this was changed to Synthetic Buff Lettering Enamel, which was a change in the paint chemistry, not the color. The R50B cars were never lettered Dulux Gold. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F Smith" To: "Bill Lane" Cc: "PRR Talk" ; "PRR Fax" ; Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 4:11 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] lettering > On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Bill Lane wrote: > > When did the PRR change the color of the lettering of its head-end cars from > > gold to dulux? 1947? Please copy rwjaxon@earthlink.net in your response. > > Bill, > > According to Pennsylvania RR Passenger Car PAinting and Lettering > (Blardone & Tilp, 1988, PRRT&HS) the transition from Gold Leaf to Dulux > Gold was mid 1952 for steel passenger cars. The R50 was never lettered in > gold leaf, always Dulux Gold, and the express X29s were FCC with white > lettering. Hope this helps > > Happy Rails > Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 19:13:49 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] East vs. west Not bickering. Just having a little fun. Nothing beats the Standard Railroad of the World. Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 20:35:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] East vs. west To Everyone: We are all just kiddin' around. It's just a joke. We are a group of railfans who happen to like the same railroad. Nothing more, nothing less. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rdhess10@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 20:53:17 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR K5 --part1_10f.a297359.296a598d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone, Thanks to everyone that gave me information about tender back-up light for PRR K5s. I really appreciate your response. I do have another question that I need help with - Do you know if either of the K5s had the cab roof and tender deck painted oxide red? I have never seen a colored picture of them. I'll appreciate any information you can provide. Thanks, Bob Hess --part1_10f.a297359.296a598d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Everyone,

Thanks to everyone that gave me information about tender back-up light for PRR K5s.  I really appreciate your response.  

I do have another question that I need help with - Do you know if either of the K5s had the cab roof and tender deck painted oxide red?  I have never seen a colored picture of them.  I'll appreciate any information you can provide.

Thanks,

Bob Hess
--part1_10f.a297359.296a598d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 21:00:06 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] CRESTLINE is boring In a message dated 1/6/02 2:31:31 PM Pacific Standard Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: << Tom, how could you say such a thing. That really hurt. OOOUCH!!! Dave Hopson >> Don't worry about it, Dave! He's from Lines West (of Civilization!) (Just joking, but couldn't resist using this line, and wish I had coined same myself!) Rich Copeland Jamison, PA (which is about 20 minutes away from a REAL railroad, with catenary!) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRRMAN@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 21:00:07 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] The PRR Mainline ends in Pittsburgh! In a message dated 1/6/02 3:00:15 PM Pacific Standard Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: << For some PRR fans, the Mainline ends at the "A.C. MOTOR STOP" signs in Enola Yards. >> Isn't it true that Scylla and Charybdis actually lived on an island in the Susquehanna at Harrisburg, and watched both sides of the river to be sure that no good people ventured beyond the end of catenary?? Rich Copeland Jamison, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] R-50b Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 21:10:22 -0500 Greg and List, Great news about the R50B model. I've tried to put together a "complete" paint and lettering history for these cars. Along the way I also noticed several different arrangements of safety appliances. I don't know whether the model will be made in a way that allows different details to be applied, but thought I should include that info also. All dates given are the beginning date for the change listed, as shown on PRR tracings. R50B Safety Appliance Details: 1 - As built in 1-1929 to 4-1929 the cars had no side ladders and had the end ladders on the right side of the ends as you stand facing the end of the car. The side sill steps at the ends were a two-step style. 2 - About 1932 some, but not all, R50B cars began to receive freight car safety appliances. This added side ladders, changed the side sill steps to a single-step type, moved the end ladders to the left side, moved the brake wheel, added a brake platform, added a platform above the end ladders, and modified many handholds. 3 - On 4-3-1940 a second handhold was added on the left end of the sides of R50B cars with freight car safety appliances, but not to cars that kept the original configuration. 4 - On 12-18-1942 the end details described in #2 above were made standard for all R50B cars. This made a new variation with full freight car safety appliances on the ends, but no side ladders. I haven't seen any photos of this variation. 5 - Beginning in 1952 the running boards and side ladders were removed. R50B Paint and Lettering Details: a - As built the cars were painted with Tuscan Red body, Metallic Brown roof, Olive trucks and underbody equipment, Black handholds and ironwork (underframe and sill steps), and Gold Leaf lettering edged with a 1/16" Black line. Side lettering included a 6" high "PENNSYLVANIA", 6" car number with figures spaced 1 1/2" apart, 4" high "AMERICAN RAILWAY EXPRESS", and 4" high "REFRIGERATOR". End lettering was 4" high "P.R.R." and car number. Lettering style was the older Block Type with coved letters "P", "S", "R", "C" and "G". b - On 4-4-1929 "AMERICAN RAILWAY EXPRESS" was change to "RAILWAY EXPRESS AGENCY, INC." It's possible that the last few cars built received this lettering as built. I haven't seen any photos showing this style. c - On 10-15-1929 the lettering was simplified to "RAILWAY EXPRESS AGENCY". d - On 8-14-1930 the end numbers were removed. e - On 10-21-1930 the side numerals were spaced 2 3/8" apart and the 4" lettering was spaced wider. f - On 7-9-1936 the lettering was changed from Gold Leaf to Buff Lettering Color, still edged with Black. g - On 4-12-1938 the lettering was changed from Block Type to Futura. However, I have never seen a photo of a Futura R50B. In fact, official photos of a freshly painted R50B taken on 9-24-1938 show Block Type. h - On 4-17-1939 the Black edging of the letters and numerals was dropped. i - On 7-13-1939 the roof paint was changed from Metallic Brown to Car Cement (a dull black). j - On 6-13-1941 the lettering style was changed back to Block Type and the spacing of the numerals was increased to 5 5/8". The underframe and equipment below the body were changed from Olive to Tuscan Red. k - On 9-7-1944 the paint color for the trucks was changed from Black to Truck Green Enamel and all equipment below the car body was changed from Tuscan Red to Truck Green Enamel. l - On 5-25-1945 the paint color for trucks and all underbody equipment was changed from Truck Green Enamel to Black. m - On 8-1-1945 the 6" letters "P" and "S" were changed from the older cove style to a rounded Block Type. It's likely that the 4" letters also changed from cove style to rounded at the same time. n - On 2-15-1954 the lettering "RAILWAY EXPRESS AGENCY" was crossed off and no longer applied to cars. o - In 1962 Scotchlite reflective keystones began to be applied to passenger cars. When this was done, no road name was used. I have no photos of this style on an R50B. p - At the beginning of 1967 there were only six R50B cars left on the passenger equipment roster. All were gone from the roster by the end of 1967. Thus, it's unlikely that any were lettered for Penn Central. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 2:30 PM Subject: [PRR] R-50b > Hey Yuze Gize... > We have rounded the corner on the R50b(HO Scale). Let's as a group determine exactly how many paint scheme the R50b had including PC if at all. (seems I remember one in Altoona with Keystones only) We need to be as accurate as humanly posssible because the project is on the drawing board and headed for the tool maker. So, if we can, I would like to have the information ready when I go to Cocoa Beach next Tuesday to hand off to Walthers. I guess it is okay to now let you all know who is doing it. So,collectively I would like to see this group get it the way they want it. I will supply the color match chips for the lettering and car color. This has been a project that that has been in the works for a while, that Bruce Smith and I have been working on since last January, once we got the committment from Walthers, and Jerry has been made aware of it also. I have included Mike Brock's email address (in the Copy address) just in case there is some last minute developments that I should be a > ill benifit far more than just us Pennsy Modelers as they went everywhere. > > TIA, > Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 21:10:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR K5 Bob, The K5 loco falls into the same painting catagory as all other locos built up to and including the M1 series. Tender Deck and Cab Roof were to be painted in these "oxide" colors. Debate always exsists on the shades of these colors as to how much black was mixed with it and to the location of the shops doing the actual painting. More info, opinions will follow I am sure.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "steven hanlon" Subject: Re: [PRR] CRESTLINE is boring Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 22:23:19 -0500 > PRR Lines West Forever! Real Railroads didn't use > catenary! i am just starting to get more interested in the Lines West. My father grew up along the PRR and i never knew. he was actually bewteen the B&O, PRR, and N&W in ohio. very interesting railroad country out there, esp. around cadiz. as for the catenary comment... you trying to tell me the milwaukee road is't a real railroad. pshaw. -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 21:30:48 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] lettering On Sun, 6 Jan 2002, Bob Johnson wrote: > An exception was Class R50B express refrigerator cars. According to PRR > Tracing D-85733 these cars were lettered with Gold Leaf as built and in any > repaintings up to 7-9-1936. After that date R50B cars were lettered with > Buff Lettering Color. In 1953 this was changed to Synthetic Buff Lettering > Enamel, which was a change in the paint chemistry, not the color. The R50B > cars were never lettered Dulux Gold. First, thanks to Bob for an excellent review of lettering color, and under seperate cover, the different modificaions of the R50B. I will disagree with one small point...Synthetic Buff Lettering Enamel, as supplied by the Dupont Company IS Dulux Gold. The intermediate "Imitation Gold" color was an attempt to stop the use of real gold, after personal possession was made illegal in the United States. In addition, I'm curious about the very precise dates listed in your discussion of the R50B...where did these come from? Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "steven hanlon" Subject: Re: [PRR] East vs. west Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 22:35:17 -0500 > We are all just kiddin' around. It's just a joke. We are a group > of railfans who happen to like the same railroad. Nothing more, nothing > less. i don't think anyone said that the NYC was a better railroad or even THE B&O for that matter. what lines are the bets are up to you as long as they are PRR, of course. with that said, i sure am getting into the CP lately -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] GP-7 and GP-9 question Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 21:45:50 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0118_01C196FB.82066760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ted--First the easy part of your question--the GP-9. The "phase II" = version, the one with four 36" cooling fans, had the antenna, the later = "phase III", with two 48" fans did not. GP-7's are much more difficult = to figure out--to be safe model using a photo! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_0118_01C196FB.82066760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ted--First the easy part of your question--the = GP-9. =20 The "phase II" version, the one with four 36" cooling fans, had the = antenna, the=20 later "phase III", with two 48" fans did not.  GP-7's are much more = difficult to figure out--to be safe model using a photo!
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
------=_NextPart_000_0118_01C196FB.82066760-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chuck Friedlein" Subject: [PRR] PRR SW7 and SW9 info. needed Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 22:54:39 -0500 I've been looking unsuccessfully through my PRR, PC and CR books and magazines for the road number conversions for any of the SW7s and SW9s that made it beyond the PRR's demise. (Rather than list them, the original numbers and re-numbering while still PRR is listed in captions under photos on pages 210 and 211 of Pennsy Power II.) Does anyone know which ones survived and what their numbers were under the PC and CR? Also, were any rebuilt with only one exhaust stack? I found plenty of photos of them in PRR paint, but does anyone have any photos they'd be willing to share of any of these in the successor owner paint schemes? TIA for any help. Chuck Friedlein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson) Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 23:34:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR SW7 and SW9 info. needed Former PRR SW7 to Penn Central PC#9035-9037,9038/exPRR9365-9367,9364 PC#9039-9041 /exPRR9382,9383,9381 PC#9045-9049/exPRR9385,9384,9393-9395 PC#9061-9067,9068/exPRR 8861-8867,9368 PC# 9069-9072,9073-9075 exPRR 9389-9392,9373-9375 PC# 9076-9080/exPRR 9376-9380 PC# 9090-9093,9094/exPRR 9369-9372,8868 PC# 9097,9098/exPRR 8871,8872 Former PRR SW9 to Penn Central PC#9042-9044/exPRR 8542-8544 PC# 9059,9060/exPRR 8859,8860 PC# 9095,9096/exPRR 8869,8870 PC# 9113-9133/exPRR 8513-8533 All info from"Penn Central Power" (Yanosey/Morning Sun). I hope this helps. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2002 22:48:09 -0600 Subject: FW: [PRR] CRESTLINE From: "William J. Ayers" Fellas, > << Crestline was a highly significant location on the PRR main line. And yet > today its majestic roundhouse is ready to collapse from neglect. >> 100% agreed!!!! > 3.) Very few people, even on this board, care about Crestline. More than 50% > of serious Pennsy fans live East of Strasburg - most of them seem to believe > that the line ended in a reverse loop around Cresson - with a few runbys in > Pittsburgh and terminal facilities in Chicago - in most Pennsy books, Ohio > and Indianna are barely mentioned - if at all. I think enough has been said on this, but ask yourself one question. If Chicago was a terminal beyond Pittsburgh, with nothing in between, how did all those trains get there? As far as efforts to have it listed on the National Register and the 11 Most Endangered List: to my knowledge, there have been 3 such attempts. The reason for the negative results is that too much of what was there is now gone. Matt Link said "No one has spoken up as to the location of any other EXISTING PRR roundhouses, so I will assume Crestline is it." I would hate to see what is left turn to dust. If we are all SPFs, seems to me we should all be interested and concerned for ALL things PRR, be it a GG1, a roundhouse, or what ever, as long as it is PRR, where ever it is! Bill Ayers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 01:38:38 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/06/02 In a message dated 1/6/02 7:59:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Well I guess it's not a good idea to wear my PRRT&HS name badge west of Pittsburgh after this thread! just havin' fun.....Dave >> Dave, Just for grins... 1. Nobody would recognize it west of Pittsburgh. There are only 4 of us out here, and only 3 on email (hahahahahaha). 2. Sometimes I think the whole PRRT&HS is just a front organization for the Philadelphia Chapter. What a bunch of fans! Just for serious... 1. The book situation is getting better, slowly. The "Lines West" content on many books coming out now must be above 7%. Sometimes, you get a whole book -- like "The Pennsylvania Railroad at Bay" (Thanks, Richard). 2. It wouldn't be the Pennsy without Hunter Tower AND Tyrone AND the Arbegust Branch in Louisville AND the Bernice Cutoff. I was on the Madison Hill (Indiana) and at Manhattan Transfer in the same year. I love it all, and my 15-year-old daughter wants to live in Penn Station New York. Rick Tipton >From out where the Pennsy was a granger with keystones. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chuck Friedlein" Subject: [PRR] PRR SW7 & SW9 (PRR to PC numbering) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 06:57:48 -0500 Dave, Thanks very much for the conversion numbering list. Penn Central Power is one book I don't have in my library. Chuck Friedlein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 08:53:22 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re:[PRR]lettering It is a short ride on the PRR from Philadelphia, headquarters of the PRR, to Wilmington, home of DuPont ("The Company" and my father-in-law, and many long term DuPont employees call it). I suspect there was a lot of inter-company links including preferential use of DuPont paints. The PRR paint specs were likly written so as to INCLUDE DuPont, and EXCLUDE other companies products without blatently saying so. This is an old trick of spec writers. Jim McDaniel, freezing here in Delmarva . . .10 inches of snow last week. PS: Does the PRR extend NORTH of Edgemoor? (I know it goes as far south as Norfolk!) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 08:36:15 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Westerfield Camp Cars >I'm getting ready to do a set of the Westerfield camp cars. I want to work >from photo's if possible. Can anyone recommend a place that I might be >able to find these to match the Westerfield cars? I'm modeling 1957, my >assumption is that I need to do a mixture of yellow and gray paint >schemes. I'm I correct in thinking this way? TIA Todd Horton Todd, There are photo of the XL camp cars in both of the PRR Color Guides (Morning Sun books, available from Jerry, although they may be out of print. I can't comment on PRR Color Guide 3 yet ...). It is unclear to me if mixing yellow and grey cars is really that accurate. Often, it appears that the whole set of cars was reworked at one time, leading to uniformity of color...if yellow...pretty clean...if grey, weather them! You will see some photos of work trains with mixed colors, but I think they were rare and occurred quite late (a number of grey cars were NEVER repainted). Al B. could probably comment more on this. BTW, these are GREAT kits, and with some patience go together fairly easily. I would definitley follow Al W's suggestions (read the directions COMPLETELY before starting!) and paint and decal the sides befor assembly. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 09:44:39 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Westerfield Camp Cars From: Jerry Britton On 1/7/02 9:36 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > There are photo of the XL camp cars in both of the PRR Color Guides > (Morning Sun books, available from Jerry, although they may be out of > print. Volume two can still be had. Volume one has been out of print for some time. These go on eBay for $45-65. I just acquired one and filled a hole in my own collection. > I can't comment on PRR Color Guide 3 yet ...). Volume three is en route from distributors to dealers, so dealers should have them by the end of this week, at the latest. > It is unclear to > me if mixing yellow and grey cars is really that accurate. Often, it > appears that the whole set of cars was reworked at one time, leading to > uniformity of color...if yellow...pretty clean...if grey, weather them! > You will see some photos of work trains with mixed colors, but I think they > were rare and occurred quite late (a number of grey cars were NEVER > repainted). Al B. could probably comment more on this. > > BTW, these are GREAT kits, and with some patience go together fairly > easily. I would definitley follow Al W's suggestions (read the directions > COMPLETELY before starting!) and paint and decal the sides befor assembly. > These kits do indeed yield excellent results. But plan for a lot of time on them...they are not of the "throw together in an evening" variety. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 10:36:52 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Interchange Cars - MP 10-6 "Pacific" Series You are correct. All PRR 10-6s had the BRs adjacent to the vestibule. The other configuration was common but I don't know that it was MORE common. Then there was the C&O configuration with the BRs in the middle! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Cadwell, Marvin L" wrote: > With respect to 10&6's, was there another difference that is important? I > seem to recall that the PRR sleepers had double bed rooms located adjacent > to the vestibule, while the more common variation (including those used by > AMTRAK in their heritage fleet) is that the roomettes are adjacent to the > vestibule? Can someone please clarify and correct my thoughts on this? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] > Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 11:33 AM > To: Jerry Britton > Cc: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: Re: [PRR] Interchange Cars - MP 10-6 "Pacific" Series > > All right Jerry, you shamed me into displaying my ignorance. AFAIK the > 9008s > were the 10-6 plan which ACF built for the PRR. They are in fact, the car > which AHM/IHC/Rivarossi makes in HO. As such it is the most prolific 10-6 > in > HO. Perhaps tat is why no one else makes sides for them. The most common > 10-6 in the real world was probably the PS plan 4140. The difference is > primarily how the beds are laid out in the bedrooms. > > A brief clinic (on-line version) on 10-6 identification. 4140s have all > BRs > with transverse beds. 9008s have BRs with alternating transverse and > longitudinal bed. ACF built 9008s have evenly spaced BR windows (look at > the > Rivarossi car). PS built 10-6s have the BR windows noticeably paired. On > 4140's the pairs are evenly spaced, on PS 9008s the pairs are unevenly > spaced. > > Plans for the riveted sides ACF 9008 (not all 9008 were riveted), which > includes the MP cars and PRR cars Buffalo Rapids and , appeared in MR about > five years ago. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > Jerry Britton wrote: > > > I fully expect Andy Miller to answer this, but to the list... > > > > The "Penn Texas" carried four interchange cars. Among them were two 10-6 > > cars built by ACF to Pullman Plan 9008 in MP "Eagle" livery. > > > > Plan 9008 differs from any the PRR had, and I am trying to find > appropriate > > passenger car sides to build a model...N scale no less! > > > > Does anyone know what other railroads used this car? > > > > I've struck out with the usual model side manufacturers: Laser Horizons, > > Brass Car Sides, Union Station Products, Des Plaines Hobbies (which has a > > Budd "Pacific ___" 10-6), and Marshall Shops (which does all the other MP > > "Eagle" cars). > > > > If nobody knows of sides, does anyone know of published drawings? A long > > time ago somebody mentioned a "Mainline Modeler" issue, but they were not > > able to provide a reference to what issue. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 10:43:29 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] P-70fbR --------------377A615AE87B430884BA7F96 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The P70FBr came with both clerestory and balloon roofs. The clerestory were the earlier conversions. They never had six-wheel trucks. That is an ECW fantasy. Save the PRR 6-trucks for a Bethlehem M-70 RPO or a BM70n conversion from an AHM/IHC/Riverossi RPO, and get some PRR 4-wheel trucks for the FBr. Far from unique, there were about 100 FBr conversions and they dominated the NE Corridor. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > PRR List, > > Recently bought an ECW kit No. 1121. This kit has an arch roof with > six wheel trucks. Thought this would be a unique car due to the lone > "porthole" windows on the sides at the same end and the large trucks, > however, all references to this car have clerestory roofs and various > four wheeled trucks. > > Is this kit fiction rather than fact? If it did exist, why did it > have six wheeled trucks? > > Many thanks in advance, > > Evan Leisey -- --------------377A615AE87B430884BA7F96 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The P70FBr came with both clerestory and balloon roofs.  The clerestory were the earlier conversions.   They never had six-wheel trucks.  That is an ECW fantasy.  Save the PRR 6-trucks for a Bethlehem M-70 RPO or a BM70n conversion from an AHM/IHC/Riverossi RPO, and get some PRR 4-wheel trucks for the FBr.

Far from unique, there were about 100 FBr conversions and they dominated the NE Corridor.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================
RDG2124@aol.com wrote:

PRR List,

 Recently bought an ECW kit No. 1121.  This kit has an arch roof with six wheel trucks.  Thought this would be a unique car due to the lone "porthole" windows on the sides at the same end and the large trucks, however, all references to this car have clerestory roofs and various four wheeled trucks.

 Is this kit fiction rather than fact?  If it did exist, why did it have six wheeled trucks?

Many thanks in advance,

Evan Leisey

--
 
 
 
  --------------377A615AE87B430884BA7F96-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 10:50:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] The PRR Mainline ends in Pittsburgh! Where is this Pittsburgh place? I always thought the railroad began at Montauk, Lines West began at Tower A, and the line ultimately petered out at some fabled location . . . I think it was called Manhattan Transfer or something. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TJ LInk" Subject: Re: [PRR] East vs. west Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 10:56:25 -0500 Mark, I am calm. did you read the entire thing? Last line: "This is not meant to offend anyone personally, only to bring to light silly lines of thought that obscure what is really important." The fact remains that as far as I know, Crestline has the ONLY EXISTING roundhouse left in the USA. Why are they squabbling about east and west when there is a gem out there that has been rotting away since 1968 and no one seems to care because the project is "Too Big." How much did it take to get the 1361 off the curve, restored and running? I bet a few million also. Everyone is in love with that idea and that of the M-1, why not the ultimate place to store them? I don't think it will be easy, but what is needed is someone who is retired and has the time and love to pursue this. I have neither but am willing to make time to help. ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Bej To: TJ LInk Cc: Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] East vs. west > TJ LInk scribit: > > > > Come on guys! Why bicker about which lines were best, east or west? I'm = > > a PRR fan no matter where it is! I just happen to love right where I = > > grew up: Crestline. If I had grown up in the east, I'd like it there as = > > well as west. This seems to be childish, if you guys don't want to help = > > preserve a PRR Roundhouse, fine! > > Matt, chill out. The East vs. West stuff is all for fun. > I for one am lucky to have been able to live in both Lines East and Lines > West territory. > > -- > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 11:09:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] East vs. west From: Jerry Britton On 1/7/02 10:56 AM, TJ LInk (chef@richnet.net) wrote: > The fact remains that as far as I know, Crestline has the ONLY EXISTING > roundhouse left in the USA. Why are they squabbling about east and west when > there is a gem out there that has been rotting away since 1968 and no one > seems to care because the project is "Too Big." How much did it take to get > the 1361 off the curve, restored and running? I bet a few million also. > Everyone is in love with that idea and that of the M-1, why not the ultimate > place to store them? I don't think it will be easy, but what is needed is > someone who is retired and has the time and love to pursue this. I have > neither but am willing to make time to help. As wonderful as it might be to restore a PRR roundhouse, there is no way you could ever acquire a collection of PRR locomotives to go to it. The collection at Strasburg belongs to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania and will never leave the state. (Besides, I like having it an hour away!) The only hope -- and one which would be far too expensive, save for an eccentric millionaire stepping in -- would be to disassemble the roundhouse and reassemble it at either Altoona or Strasburg. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] GP-7 and GP-9 question Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 16:33:21 +0000 Steve, Derrick and the List: Thank you for the information that you have provided. I had a sneaking suspicion that PRR GP-9's that were phase 3 did not have train phone antennas based on all of the photos that I have seen of them. One follow up question, what PRR engine numbers for GP-9's included phase 3? I think that the phase 3's started somewhere in the 71XX's and ended in the 72XX's. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana >From: "Steve Hoxie" >To: "PRR Talk" >Subject: Re: [PRR] GP-7 and GP-9 question >Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2002 21:45:50 -0600 > >Ted--First the easy part of your question--the GP-9. The "phase II" >version, the one with four 36" cooling fans, had the antenna, the later >"phase III", with two 48" fans did not. GP-7's are much more difficult to >figure out--to be safe model using a photo! > >Steve Hoxie >Pensacola FL _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 11:48:28 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] GP-7 and GP-9 question From: Jerry Britton On 1/7/02 11:33 AM, Ted Andrews (ted_andrews@msn.com) wrote: > Thank you for the information that you have provided. I had a sneaking > suspicion that PRR GP-9's that were phase 3 did not have train phone > antennas based on all of the photos that I have seen of them. > > One follow up question, what PRR engine numbers for GP-9's included phase 3? > I think that the phase 3's started somewhere in the 71XX's and ended in the > 72XX's. > At the 2000 annual meeting of the PRRT&HS, Jim Williams did a presentation on the GP7's and GP9's. There was a handout that listed the various batches, phases, and road numbers. I think the handout also indicated trainphones. I had always intended to post this on Keystone Crossings. I just checked, and it appears I never did. At this point, that handout is somewhere in six boxes of stuff waiting to be scanned. Hopefully I have jogged someone's memory and they will have the handout to which I refer and can take a look. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 12:04:54 -0500 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] East vs. west I think the entire matter must be put into perspective, and the perspective must "follow the money". 1. The motive power collection that belongs to the Commonwealth of Pa came to the state in lieu of taxes at the time of the great PC "unpleasantness". The citizens of the Commonwealth of PA in essence "paid for the collection" in one way or another. 2. The State of Pennsylvania has invested millions of dollars in the museum at Strasburg which as a matter of fact has the highest rate of attendance of any museum operated by the state even exceeding the State's Wm. Penn Museum in Harrisburg. 3. The Altoona RR's Memorial Museum has also received funding from the State of Pennsylvania. 4. The State of Pennsylvania is also funding the majority of the work on 1361. The shame is that the I-1 and the P-5 were lost from the preservation efforts of the State. Pennsylvanians have invested heavily to preserve and display the railroad heritage of their State. Can Ohio say the same? Surely there is just (almost) as rich a railroad heritage in Ohio but what efforts has its government spent either in dollars or in sweat equity to insure that it collected a preserved the RR heritage of its state. While the roundhouse is a PRR masterpiece, where are you going to get a turntable? What are you going to display there? What story are you going to tell? We are all blessed with the fact the the PRR put some "stuff" away and some of Pennsylvania's tax dollars preserved and now display a very significant collect. I believe that the effort in PA (Alto and Strasburg) needs as much support as it can get and to even consider doing something in Crestline when the State of Ohio itself has shown no interest would only dilute any base of support that the public has shown for either Strasburg or Altoona. I think it would help if the State of Pennsylvania had the foresight to perserve equipment from the non-Pennsy railroads in the State such as the Erie, Bessemer, NYC, NKP, B&O, LV, Lackawanna, as well as some of the products for GE Erie such as a Turbine. There is indeed a rich RR tradition in PA that extends far beyond the PRR. It needs to be interperted with the same clarity as the PRR. Bennett Levin TJ LInk wrote: > > Mark, I am calm. did you read the entire thing? > Last line: > "This is not meant to offend anyone personally, only to bring to light silly > lines of thought that obscure what is really important." > > The fact remains that as far as I know, Crestline has the ONLY EXISTING > roundhouse left in the USA. Why are they squabbling about east and west when > there is a gem out there that has been rotting away since 1968 and no one > seems to care because the project is "Too Big." How much did it take to get > the 1361 off the curve, restored and running? I bet a few million also. > Everyone is in love with that idea and that of the M-1, why not the ultimate > place to store them? I don't think it will be easy, but what is needed is > someone who is retired and has the time and love to pursue this. I have > neither but am willing to make time to help. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mark Bej > To: TJ LInk > Cc: > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 9:53 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] East vs. west > > > TJ LInk scribit: > > > > > > Come on guys! Why bicker about which lines were best, east or west? I'm > = > > > a PRR fan no matter where it is! I just happen to love right where I = > > > grew up: Crestline. If I had grown up in the east, I'd like it there as > = > > > well as west. This seems to be childish, if you guys don't want to help > = > > > preserve a PRR Roundhouse, fine! > > > > Matt, chill out. The East vs. West stuff is all for fun. > > I for one am lucky to have been able to live in both Lines East and Lines > > West territory. > > > > -- > > Mark > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 12:17:59 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] P-70fbR --------------4DBDAA639682952E75191EED Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I misspoke! (I never make mistrakes ;-) ) As pointed out by another list member, the P70FBr's had "Commonwealth" not PRR trucks. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > The P70FBr came with both clerestory and balloon roofs. The > clerestory were the earlier conversions. They never had six-wheel > trucks. That is an ECW fantasy. Save the PRR 6-trucks for a > Bethlehem M-70 RPO or a BM70n conversion from an AHM/IHC/Riverossi > RPO, and get some PRR 4-wheel trucks for the FBr. > > Far from unique, there were about 100 FBr conversions and they > dominated the NE Corridor. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > >> PRR List, >> >> Recently bought an ECW kit No. 1121. This kit has an arch roof >> with six wheel trucks. Thought this would be a unique car due to >> the lone "porthole" windows on the sides at the same end and the >> large trucks, however, all references to this car have clerestory >> roofs and various four wheeled trucks. >> >> Is this kit fiction rather than fact? If it did exist, why did it >> have six wheeled trucks? >> >> Many thanks in advance, >> >> Evan Leisey > > -- > > > > -- --------------4DBDAA639682952E75191EED Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I misspoke! (I never make mistrakes ;-) )  As pointed out by another list member, the P70FBr's had "Commonwealth" not PRR trucks.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================
"Andrew S. Miller" wrote:

The P70FBr came with both clerestory and balloon roofs.  The clerestory were the earlier conversions.   They never had six-wheel trucks.  That is an ECW fantasy.  Save the PRR 6-trucks for a Bethlehem M-70 RPO or a BM70n conversion from an AHM/IHC/Riverossi RPO, and get some PRR 4-wheel trucks for the FBr.

Far from unique, there were about 100 FBr conversions and they dominated the NE Corridor.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================
RDG2124@aol.com wrote:

PRR List,

 Recently bought an ECW kit No. 1121.  This kit has an arch roof with six wheel trucks.  Thought this would be a unique car due to the lone "porthole" windows on the sides at the same end and the large trucks, however, all references to this car have clerestory roofs and various four wheeled trucks.

 Is this kit fiction rather than fact?  If it did exist, why did it have six wheeled trucks?

Many thanks in advance,

Evan Leisey

--
 
 
 
 

--
 
 
  --------------4DBDAA639682952E75191EED-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 12:25:56 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 10/6 sleepers Pullman Plan 9008 Sorry about that; AFAIK 9008 was an ACF plan number. The corresponding PS plan was 4129. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================= ThreeButchers@cs.com wrote: > Andy, Jerry; > > I compared the roster information from the July 1995 M-M article to the > "Passenger Equipment of the PRR, vol 2". Both are in agreement.... > > Only ACF delivered cars to the PRR from Pullman plan 9008....23 cars total. > > Lot #3079 - Rivet and spot weld construction > French Rapids > Genesee Rapids > Green Rapids > Huron Rapids > > Lot #3200 - Rivet construction > Blue Rapids > Buffalo Rapids > Hudson Rapids > Eagle Beam > "" Bluff > "" Charm > "" Chief > "" Cove > "" Eye > "" Grand > "" Head > '"" Oak > "" Park > "" Pass > > Lot #3212 - Rivet Construction > Allegheny Rapids > Mahoning Rapids > Mississippi "" > Ohio "" > Penns "" > > I checked the ACF/ Pullman plan #9008 / Lot #3200 drawing (Eagle cars) in > Mainline Modeler with the Rivarossi smoothside 10-6 model....On top of being > smoothside Vs riveted....the window spacing does not match on the compartment > side. > > Regards; > Brian Butcher > PRR 30s-50s 1/160th > PRRT&HS #5540 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR-n_scale/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- = ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 11:56:39 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] P-70fbR > I misspoke! (I never make mistrakes ;-) ) As pointed out by another >list member, the P70FBr's had "Commonwealth" not PRR trucks. >Regards, And a good thing too as ECW's PRR 4 wheel trucks are only suitable for the wastebasket due to the misalignment of the axle whole in half the castings! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:17:18 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] East vs. west On Mon, 7 Jan 2002, TJ LInk wrote: > Mark, I am calm. did you read the entire thing? > Last line: > "This is not meant to offend anyone personally, only to bring to light silly > lines of thought that obscure what is really important." > > The fact remains that as far as I know, Crestline has the ONLY EXISTING > roundhouse left in the USA. Then you need to learn more. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] East vs. west Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:38:39 -0500 Dear List: I am always fascinated by the wealth of knowledge proffered by this list and the PRRT&HS in general, especially when someone's pet interests have been maligned. Please keep it up, I'm learning a lot about an area of the PRR that is not well known to me, Lines West. My knowledge of the PRR system and its operations has grown over the years through discussion and controversy. I'm one of those "catinary" people who eat, sleep and breathe big motors. I like to speculate what Lines West and the H Curve would be like if wire had been strung all the way to St. Lois and Chicago. What could a GG1 have accomplished on a line that would allow an Atlantic loco to reach 128 MPH ???? Thanks again for all the info and keep on fightin'. Lew Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] East vs. west Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:01:07 -0600 I grew up in Philly and now live in the Chicago area. I'll personally take Lines East over Lines West anytime. The west end is boring to my thinking but those that like it are welcome in my book. I find it hard to accept that Crestline is the only standing roundhouse in the country. Does that mean PRR roudhouse or all RR's? The real problem with preserving anything is $. If the Society can't collect a couple of hundred dollars to save a known one of a kind car where would the millions required for steam or structures come from? I personally would rather see it preserved well on film than have the government get involved with tax dollars. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 12:38 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] East vs. west > Dear List: > > I am always fascinated by the wealth of knowledge proffered by this list and > the PRRT&HS in general, especially when someone's pet interests have been > maligned. Please keep it up, I'm learning a lot about an area of the PRR > that is not well known to me, Lines West. My knowledge of the PRR system > and its operations has grown over the years through discussion and > controversy. > > I'm one of those "catinary" people who eat, sleep and breathe big motors. I > like to speculate what Lines West and the H Curve would be like if wire had > been strung all the way to St. Lois and Chicago. What could a GG1 have > accomplished on a line that would allow an Atlantic loco to reach 128 MPH > ???? > > Thanks again for all the info and keep on fightin'. > > Lew Matt > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 14:08:31 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Roundhouses Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > On Mon, 7 Jan 2002, TJ LInk wrote: > The fact remains that as far as I know, Crestline has the ONLY EXISTING roundhouse left in the USA. > > Then you need to learn more. > > -D Greetings to Derrick and the list: Agreed, absolutely, many times over. Assuming that some of us wouldn't count Steamtown because it was 100 percent reconstructed on the footprint of what had been the DL&W roundhouse foundation in Scranton, Pa., certainly other very large examples still exist. One that comes to mind is the N.C. Museum of Transportation at Spencer, where much of the collection is housed in a former Southern Railway roundhouse. Closer to PRR-Land, the East Broad Top roundhouse at Rockhill Furnace, Pa., is alive, well, and stocked with operable Baldwin 2-8-2s. I wouldn't even venture that Crestline is the last standing PRR roundhouse. Someone from the Pittsburgh area could confirm, but a segment of the Conway roundhouse may still be active as part of the diesel facility there. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 14:09:05 EST Subject: [PRR] Preservation In a message dated 1/7/02 12:07:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net writes: << I think it would help if the State of Pennsylvania had the foresight to perserve equipment from the non-Pennsy railroads in the State such as the Erie, Bessemer, NYC, NKP, B&O, LV, Lackawanna, as well as some of the products for GE Erie such as a Turbine. >> In spite of a preponderance of PRR "stuff" the Strasburg Museum is very much "The State Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania" NOT the Pennsylvania Railroad Museum - they do have pieces from the NKP (all of what - 60 miles of it in northeastern Pa?) the RDG and Erie (the big Conrail Derrick) - and a collection of erery variety of geared locomotive - all but one were either built or used in Pa. Bennett - you know, much more than others here, that preservation, like politics, is the art of the possible - In the area of "landmarks" (vs portable equipment) strong local interest is required. In Orrville, Ohio the former Mayor was also president of the "Railway Heritage Assn" - and in Dennison - former "Doughnut Dollies" made certain that their Depot was saved. I belong to the Northern Ohio Railway Museum Assn (primarily traction equipment at Chippewa Lake, Ohio) and have participated in the "saving" of a PRR X-23 boxcar. Anyone interested in saving a signifigant structure, with volunteers, should start with a hot day or two chipping paint of a full size car. (Even "O" scalers have no idea of the "scale" of the job) I once spent more than a month of weekends polishing the south side of a stainless steel Budd car - strictly below the window line. When I got close to "finishing", it finally occurred to me that there was still the north side.... Anyone here ever change the batteries on a passenger car? It's not quite like changing the batteries in a flashlight - especially if the car is out in a field and you don't have a fork lift. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Roundhouses Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:14:57 -0600 B&O Cumberland Roundhouse is still in existence and is still being used, and not as a tourist attraction. -----Original Message----- From: Dan Cupper [mailto:cupper@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 1:09 PM To: Derrick J Brashear Cc: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Roundhouses Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > On Mon, 7 Jan 2002, TJ LInk wrote: > The fact remains that as far as I know, Crestline has the ONLY EXISTING roundhouse left in the USA. > > Then you need to learn more. > > -D Greetings to Derrick and the list: Agreed, absolutely, many times over. Assuming that some of us wouldn't count Steamtown because it was 100 percent reconstructed on the footprint of what had been the DL&W roundhouse foundation in Scranton, Pa., certainly other very large examples still exist. One that comes to mind is the N.C. Museum of Transportation at Spencer, where much of the collection is housed in a former Southern Railway roundhouse. Closer to PRR-Land, the East Broad Top roundhouse at Rockhill Furnace, Pa., is alive, well, and stocked with operable Baldwin 2-8-2s. I wouldn't even venture that Crestline is the last standing PRR roundhouse. Someone from the Pittsburgh area could confirm, but a segment of the Conway roundhouse may still be active as part of the diesel facility there. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 14:23:34 EST From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] East vs. west/ Crestline/ Roundhouses TJ & folks, I've been reading some of this Crestline commentary with at least a passing interest. That town is one of my last memories of riding Pennsy's East-West trains, specificly the westbound Manhattan Ltd in late 1965. I recall waking up in my coach seat there, at some ungodly hour, during the station stop. Either I'm having halucinations, or my memory serves me correctly, but it seems the NYC also ran through there. The image of an NYC train, very heavy on headend traffic, comes back to me. It had one or two stainless steel cars, a coach or sleeper, in the consist as it crept over a diamond that crossed the Pennsy main. It's been awhile, and I don't imagine there's a whole lot of anything still around there now. As regards roundhouses, I'm not sure if I understand the statement that "Crestline has the only existing roundhouse left in the USA". Are you actually referring to the 'USRA' design roundhouse? I can't make any comments on that, but as for roundhouses in general go, there's quite a few still around. Even in the metro area I live in there's at least three that come to mind, all of them in heavy daily use, complete with their turntables. (ex-MT in St.Paul, now MN Commercial;ex-Milw in St.Paul, now CP Rail; ex-NP up in northeast Minneapolis, now BNSF. I think there's also some ex-C&NW still up and possibly the Soo's up at Shoreham, right off). None of my remarks are meant to be contentious, and I'm sure the old Creatline structure would be a worthy project. I'm just a bit unclear about the status of the Crestline roundhouse. regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] East vs. west/ Crestline/ Roundhouses Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:41:10 -0600 The Big Four (NYC) crossed the PRR at the Crestline Passenger Station, which is located about 1-2 miles east of the Crestline Roundhouse. The crossing still exists today, sans passenger station. The Big Four Line is still quite busy, and there is a connection from the south on the Big Four to the east bound PRR main. A few years ago, I even witnessed a crew change on this route at Crestline. The PRR is single tracked west of the diamonds, while the Big Four is double tracked. All tracks are well maintained. Last time I visited, Crest tower still stood at the diamond, albeit out of service. West of the roundhouse, NS had installed a road railer terminal, but I'm not sure if it's still being used. -----Original Message----- From: BPX29@aol.com [mailto:BPX29@aol.com] Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 1:24 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] East vs. west/ Crestline/ Roundhouses TJ & folks, I've been reading some of this Crestline commentary with at least a passing interest. That town is one of my last memories of riding Pennsy's East-West trains, specificly the westbound Manhattan Ltd in late 1965. I recall waking up in my coach seat there, at some ungodly hour, during the station stop. Either I'm having halucinations, or my memory serves me correctly, but it seems the NYC also ran through there. The image of an NYC train, very heavy on headend traffic, comes back to me. It had one or two stainless steel cars, a coach or sleeper, in the consist as it crept over a diamond that crossed the Pennsy main. It's been awhile, and I don't imagine there's a whole lot of anything still around there now. As regards roundhouses, I'm not sure if I understand the statement that "Crestline has the only existing roundhouse left in the USA". Are you actually referring to the 'USRA' design roundhouse? I can't make any comments on that, but as for roundhouses in general go, there's quite a few still around. Even in the metro area I live in there's at least three that come to mind, all of them in heavy daily use, complete with their turntables. (ex-MT in St.Paul, now MN Commercial;ex-Milw in St.Paul, now CP Rail; ex-NP up in northeast Minneapolis, now BNSF. I think there's also some ex-C&NW still up and possibly the Soo's up at Shoreham, right off). None of my remarks are meant to be contentious, and I'm sure the old Creatline structure would be a worthy project. I'm just a bit unclear about the status of the Crestline roundhouse. regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "steven hanlon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Roundhouses Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 14:43:36 -0500 > I wouldn't even venture that Crestline is the last standing PRR > roundhouse. Someone from the Pittsburgh area could confirm, but a > segment of the Conway roundhouse may still be active as part of the > diesel facility there. if you had purchased or watched the Pentrex Pittsburgh mainlines, you'd see a shot of said area with the turntable, section of the roundhouse and tons of diesels hanging about. if you want to add another roundhouse to the list, don't forget Martinsburg, WVa on the B&O. -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Roundhouses Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 13:46:31 -0600 Crestline recently celebrated its Sesquicentennial (150th birthday). As part of this celebration, someone put out a VHS tape, including scenes from their 100th birthday 50 years before. Of course, at that time the railroad had a much greater presence in Crestline than it does now. Included in the tape are several railroad scenes, some dating back to the 1930s and 1940s. The coverage of the railroad is not that great. Nevertheless, this tape includes the only video/moving picture shots I have ever seen of the S-1 in actual revenue service. -----Original Message----- From: steven hanlon [mailto:shanlon@asciibaron.com] Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 1:44 PM To: Dan Cupper; Derrick J Brashear Cc: PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Roundhouses > I wouldn't even venture that Crestline is the last standing PRR > roundhouse. Someone from the Pittsburgh area could confirm, but a > segment of the Conway roundhouse may still be active as part of the > diesel facility there. if you had purchased or watched the Pentrex Pittsburgh mainlines, you'd see a shot of said area with the turntable, section of the roundhouse and tons of diesels hanging about. if you want to add another roundhouse to the list, don't forget Martinsburg, WVa on the B&O. -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Roundhouses Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 15:01:15 -0500 How about the B&O museum roundhouse? I believe the Metro-North North White Plains yard has a 3 stall roundhouse. I also was on the New York State Thruway last weekend somewhere between Albany and Utica and saw a Turntable I'm not sure if there was a roundhouse connected to it. (there is a chance it might have been in Utica) Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 15:04:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Roundhouses In a message dated 01/07/2002 14:13:41 Eastern Standard Time, cupper@worldnet.att.net writes: > I wouldn't even venture that Crestline is the last standing PRR > roundhouse. Someone from the Pittsburgh area could confirm, but a > segment of the Conway roundhouse may still be active as part of the > diesel facility there. > Dan and all, A portion of the Conway roundhouse was still in use last fall. However, with the upgrade and expansion of the diesel facilities planned by NS for Conway, this may see the wrecking ball. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 15:10:21 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Roundhouses From: Jerry Britton On 1/7/02 3:01 PM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > How about the B&O museum roundhouse? I believe the Metro-North North White > Plains yard has a 3 stall roundhouse. I also was on the New York State > Thruway last weekend somewhere between Albany and Utica and saw a Turntable > I'm not sure if there was a roundhouse connected to it. (there is a chance > it might have been in Utica) > Err, uh, somewhat related....Enola still has a turntable! It also has a 2-3 stall roundhouse, but not original. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 15:42:04 EST Subject: [PRR] P0fbR Coach --part1_39.208ee889.296b621c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, Many thanks for the volumes on this car and the six wheel truck fantasy. A little effort on the side frame alignment, P2K wheels and they'll roll nicely. Will use the trucks on a BCW PRR Horse car I have on order from Merchandise Service. Will model the 1948 rebuilt version with the 2E-P5 trucks. Picked up a copy of Passenger Equipment of the Pennsylvania Railroad, Vol. 1: Coaches, can't wait for the next volume to appear. Book is soft cover by Sweetland & Liljestrand, published by The Railroad Press (www.alco628.com). Lots of good clear photos! If you don't have a copy, I highly recommend you check with Merchandise Service to get one. Happy Modeling, Evan --part1_39.208ee889.296b621c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List,

 Many thanks for the volumes on this car and the six wheel truck fantasy.  A little effort on the side frame alignment, P2K wheels and they'll roll nicely.  Will use the trucks on a BCW PRR Horse car I have on order from Merchandise Service.  

 Will model the 1948 rebuilt version with the 2E-P5 trucks.

 Picked up a copy of Passenger Equipment of the Pennsylvania Railroad, Vol. 1: Coaches,  can't  wait for the next volume to appear.  Book is soft cover by Sweetland & Liljestrand, published by The Railroad Press (www.alco628.com).  Lots of good clear photos!  If you don't have a copy,  I highly recommend you check with Merchandise Service to get one.

Happy Modeling,

Evan --part1_39.208ee889.296b621c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 16:16:16 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] P-70fbR Unfortunately very true, however, with the disappearance of MDC's Pennsy Roller Bearing truck, they are about the only game in town. The good news is that of each set of 4 sideframes, only one is out of square. So the answer is to buy four sets of trucks and have three good ones :-(( Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: > > I misspoke! (I never make mistrakes ;-) ) As pointed out by another > >list member, the P70FBr's had "Commonwealth" not PRR trucks. > >Regards, > > And a good thing too as ECW's PRR 4 wheel trucks are only suitable for the > wastebasket due to the misalignment of the axle whole in half the castings! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 17:01:16 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR] Roundhouses The museum built around the Central of Georgia roundhouse and shop complex in Savannah is definitely worth a visit. I recall the 19th century machinery as perhaps the most interesting part. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 17:06:29 EST Subject: [PRR] Roundhouses In a message dated 1/7/02 3:08:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: << How about the B&O museum roundhouse? >> A "nit" but the B&O Museum - while a "roundhouse" - with an enclosed turntable - was a car repair shop - not designed for locomotives. Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: [PRR] Local classification Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 16:10:12 -0600 On a tower sheet how were local trains entered? Did they have symbols like the road freights or use engine numbers for designation? I am primarily interested in Phila Terminal operations. Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] lettering Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 17:51:48 -0500 Bruce, Thanks for the information that when the PRR ordered Synthetic Buff Lettering Enamel from Dupont, what they received was Dupont's Dulux Gold. Of course, if the PRR ordered the paint from another supplier, it would not have been called Dulux Gold. Instead of saying that R50B cars were never lettered Dulux Gold, I should have just said that the words "Dulux Gold" didn't appear on any PRR lettering drawing or in any other PRR documents. Using "Dulux Gold" to describe a Pennsy color is just like using "Brunswick Green" instead of Dark Green Locomotive Enamel. As we all know, the PRR had their own terminology, which differed from that used by Pullman, other railroads, and the paint manufacturers. Regarding the dates in the R50B discussion, they came from PRR tracings as follows. Safety Appliance Details came from A-85726 - R50B Arrangement, A-99709 - R50B Application of Freight Car Safety Appliances, and A-448608 R50B Arrangement. Paint and Lettering Details came from D-85733 - R50B Arrangement of Lettering, D-93777 - Spacing of Legends and Numerals, C-413746 - Painting, Lettering & Numbering Arrangement [Futura] Sheet 1, C-429417 - Painting, Lettering & Numbering Arrangement [Block] Sheet 1, F-433145 - Exterior Painting Color Chart, C-65426 - 6" Lettering, C-462062 - Keystone and Initials "PRR", and C-462292 - Monogram Location Diagrams. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F Smith" To: "Bob Johnson" Cc: Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 10:30 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] lettering > On Sun, 6 Jan 2002, Bob Johnson wrote: > > An exception was Class R50B express refrigerator cars. According to PRR > > Tracing D-85733 these cars were lettered with Gold Leaf as built and in any > > repaintings up to 7-9-1936. After that date R50B cars were lettered with > > Buff Lettering Color. In 1953 this was changed to Synthetic Buff Lettering > > Enamel, which was a change in the paint chemistry, not the color. The R50B > > cars were never lettered Dulux Gold. > > First, thanks to Bob for an excellent review of lettering color, and under > seperate cover, the different modificaions of the R50B. I will disagree > with one small point...Synthetic Buff Lettering Enamel, as supplied by the > Dupont Company IS Dulux Gold. The intermediate "Imitation Gold" color was > an attempt to stop the use of real gold, after personal possession was > made illegal in the United States. > > In addition, I'm curious about the very precise dates listed in your > discussion of the R50B...where did these come from? > > Happy Rails > Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Roundhouses Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 19:20:36 -0500 Buffalo NY has two Roundhouses remaining, The old West Shore, (I think) and later Pullman (I know) roundhouse still exists at the west end of Frontier Yard in Buffalo, although it is no longer connected to the railroad. And the Former Pennsy Ebenezer Roundhouse and Coal dock are still in place and the roundhouse is in use as a RR Rebuilding shop. In fact I took a slightly blurry shot of them from the air in November Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Cupper" To: "Derrick J Brashear" Cc: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 2:08 PM Subject: [PRR] Roundhouses > Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > > > On Mon, 7 Jan 2002, TJ LInk wrote: > > The fact remains that as far as I know, Crestline has the ONLY EXISTING roundhouse left in the USA. > > > > Then you need to learn more. > > > > -D > > > Greetings to Derrick and the list: > > Agreed, absolutely, many times over. > > Assuming that some of us wouldn't count Steamtown because it was 100 > percent reconstructed on the footprint of what had been the DL&W > roundhouse foundation in Scranton, Pa., certainly other very large > examples still exist. One that comes to mind is the N.C. Museum of > Transportation at Spencer, where much of the collection is housed in a > former Southern Railway roundhouse. Closer to PRR-Land, the East Broad > Top roundhouse at Rockhill Furnace, Pa., is alive, well, and stocked > with operable Baldwin 2-8-2s. > > I wouldn't even venture that Crestline is the last standing PRR > roundhouse. Someone from the Pittsburgh area could confirm, but a > segment of the Conway roundhouse may still be active as part of the > diesel facility there. > > Dan Cupper > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 19:29:59 EST Subject: [PRR] Roundhouses To All, A "little ways'" from PRR country... but none the less. In Portland, OR is found a still working STEAM roundhouse. This is the S.P. Brooklyn Roundhouse home to S.P. 4449 and S.P.& S. 700. Jon S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 19:34:25 -0500 From: davep Subject: [Fwd: Re: [PRR] Roundhouses] I can think of four (five...) off hand, tho all well outside of PRR territory. One neat trick is hunting via the web. the various sites with archived aerial photo cover commonly show up survivors, even some that are near unidentifiable from ground level... One can even see 'round remains', sometimes, tho the building be gone. which is not exactly surviving. best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Duane C. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Roundhouse Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 19:42:31 -0500 As of 1997 there was a roundhouse still standing in Chambersburg, Pa. Does anyone know if it belonged to the PRR or to the Reading. Duane Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson) Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 20:00:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Local classification Hey Norm, The tower sheet I have for "THORN" (Jan,2,1964) has a few local trains on it. P-90, P-48, and P-64 are locals. P-48 is on the sheet three times. It may be setting cars for the Lukens Steel Works but I'm not sure of it. The dispatch sheets have more info on them. Number of engines,tonnage, cars, crew names. and number of caboose,etc,etc. I also have "STATE" and "HARRIS" tower sheets and they are really hard to understand whats going on. I have to let a tower operator from the PRR days take a look at them so he can school me. Jerry has the "THORN" and "LEMO" sheets posted on his site. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:19:50 -0500 From: "H.&S." Subject: [PRR] Crestline roundhouse,what could happen and what else is Hello all...... I've been reading this thread for a while and thought i'd make a few comments. Some here have already mentioned some things i was gonna say,but i'll throw some ideas out here and see what happens. Clearly....if we could wish it to happen the Crestline roundhouse would be saved. I for one,while being a Lines East fan have a clear fondness for all of the PRR. One of my all time favorite PRR stories has been and will probably always be John Crosby's "Second Engine 28" which as most of us know takes place on "Lines West" territory. Yes if this roundhouse is to be saved it may take money, time,environmental dealings,local,state and federal government connections and resources and most importantly volenteer help and resources. I've seen situations like this go both ways. A good example is the Already mentioned Spencer shops site. And some help for that site came from Southern Rwy. EBT is another example...while today its still around,running and open for us to enjoy......If something catastrophic were to happen, such as a large wreck involving patron injuries or prohibitive insurance costs......What would happen to EBT? Some of us know some of the battles EBT has been through and of those it still faces. Then there are other sadder cases....I remember just a few years ago that there was some group with a interest similar to those trying to save Crestline that were trying to save the Western Maryland Rwy's Hagerstown roundhouse and turntable. This roundhouse,while not in the best shape,was in much better shape than Crestline. This group even worked out a agreement with CSX on a possible sale. Alas not enough money was raised and the roundhouse and turntable are now gone from what i had heard last. Even my own favorite ......Orangeville and four other favorites (Ivy City, Wilmington,Harrisburg and East Altoona) are now gone. Some with-in the past few years. In some cases we to some extent somewhat assumed that the railroads that took over these wonderful structures would either keep using them for railroad purposes,find new uses for them or donate them as museum sites. Now i'm not unrealistic about this and know that not all of the old PRR can be saved. Somewhere there is still a old MP-54 or N-5 or PRR RS-3 or some station thats been missed,while still around today will someday be turned into scrap or more attractive real estate. Heck......even the shipyard i work for might one day be more attractive as a Condo site than the shipyard it is today. Then there are some things that are so far gone.....that they should be scrapped. For some things we have enough clear documentation that we recreate these things at some later date. I'm not saying Crestline should be torn down.....no if it can be saved and be saved before its so far gone it can't be realistically be saved.....go for it while we can,but there are and will be things that we have to let go of when that is the case. One for me one would be the MP-54 at Strasburg. Save what you can and let it go. (Besides L.I. cars.....isn't there one or two PRR cars the Wilmington and Western has/had?). For those who can and want to save it.....Please.....go for it.... and Really do something. It will probably take some kind of small "Grass Roots" kind of support and operation at first, but foremost.....make a start.....and keep it going..... The 1851 President St. station in Baltimore was close to being torn down. It was saved starting with a small group (Freinds of President St. station) Get the public involved. There are ways also of environmentally sealing a site while saving a structure. We did that here at the shipyard i work for. This will also take more then one or two people.....Get a Lawyer railfan involved.....find a Contractor thats a railfan and get them in on it. Find people who are fans and use their tallents to get the results to save it. Find tax breaks,Gov. Grants. Work with the owner(s)..... Who knows....maybe a Bill Gates or Ted Turner will pop up. One last point.....Save it for another use. It would be preferable to save it as some sort of regional museum, but if it could'nt be saved as such.....perhaps use it for something else.....as a garage.....The old Ma & Pa roundhouse in Baltimore is used for salt and sand storage by the City of Baltimore.....as some sort of upscale multiple eatery site.....As a mini mall......(was'nt that done to the large concourse at Union station in DC?) As a Antiques mall... The PRR's 1865 Calvert St. station in Baltimore is now the "Downtown Racquet Club.....and this isn't a small building.......whatever....but save it,.it might not be a roundhouse anymore,but the point is that by finding a new use for it ,it could be saved in that manner. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 20:28:14 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Roundhouses I believe "West 3rd Street" (B&O?) still exists here in Cleveland - though I haven't been near it lately Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 20:12:02 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] East vs. west/ Crestline/ Roundhouses From: "William J. Ayers" Barry, Marvin, Matt, et al, I've been following this discussion with considerable interest. As some of you commented, there are two factors that are required for any major restoration effort. First, there has to be an interest in the project, with an organised group of people, and second, a LOT of $$$. Just visited my Dad in Spencer, NC (he lives 7 blocks from the NC Transportation Museum) and he told me that 3 million bucks are needed to replace just the the roof on the Back Shop building. The State did a beautiful job restoring the 37 stall roundhouse. (Definitely worth a visit.) I would not be surprised if it would take upwards of 20 million to restore the Crestline roundhouse. It is a terrible shame that the state of Ohio does not have an interest in it. It certainly deserves attention. There are quite a few roundhouses still existing. I have been researching the Crestline facilities over the past several years, and although I can't say that it is the only PRR roundhouse still standing, it is my understanding that it is the ONLY one of that particular design. I hesitate to call it a "USRA design" since the PRR Engineering Dept actually did the design work, approved by the USRA (1918). This is confirmed by a document from the contractor that built it and PRR drawings I have. I believe the USRA designation came from a photo caption in the Q2 book. The current status and future of the roundhouse is unclear to me. This past fall, the owner did a rather thorough clean-up job, and he has an interest in it, and demolition is NOT his goal. I know of one gentleman who has serious thoughts about opening a resturant/museum in the former powerhouse, again, I don't know what the status is on that. I do know that the steel framework is still structurally sound, the masonry and concrete roof is another issue. Marvin, in the video "Pennsylvania Glory" can't remember, vol. 2 or 3, there is a 5 second blip of the deskirted S-1 backing to a train in Chicago. Any details about where I can get a copy of the tape? Barry, you were not hallucinating, the NYC (Big Four) did go through there crossing the Pennsy at the station. When I lived in Crestline in the '60s, PRR had 3 tracks east-west and NYC 2 north-south with an interchange. Then, the PRR was more busy than NYC, but now, the former NYC (still 2 tracks) is way more busy than the former PRR (now only 1 track). Crest tower was operated by the NYC. FWIW, I am currently building a web site on the Crestline facilities. When it is ready, I will announce it here. Bill Ayers > As regards roundhouses, I'm not sure if I understand the statement that > "Crestline has the only existing roundhouse left in the USA". Are you actually > referring to the 'USRA' design roundhouse? I can't make any comments on that, > but as for roundhouses in general go, there's quite a few still around. Even > in the metro area I live in there's at least three that come to mind, all of > them in heavy daily use, complete with their turntables. (ex-MT in St.Paul, > now MN Commercial;ex-Milw in St.Paul, now CP Rail; ex-NP up in northeast > Minneapolis, now BNSF. I think there's also some ex-C&NW still up and possibly > the Soo's up at Shoreham, right off). > > None of my remarks are meant to be contentious, and I'm sure the old Creatline > structure would be a worthy project. I'm just a bit unclear about the status > of the Crestline roundhouse. > regards, > Barry Peltier > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 21:23:31 -0500 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: Re: [PRR] GP-7 and GP-9 question For what it's worth, train-phone antennas were probably installed after market, vs. from manufacturer. The criteria for having train-phone equipment was geographic, as steam and diesel units assigned to electrified territory couldn't use it due to interference from the overhead. One could assume that System and Regional service units had train-phone while local assignments depended on location and service requirements. Since the so called phase 3 GP-9s were system pool assigned, one can conclude that they had train-phone, even without photographic evidence. Even GP-30s and U-25-bs were initially equipped with train-phone, although shortly thereafter, the entire system service fleet was converted to VHF High band radios. Joe Witcofsky ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derrick J Brashear" To: "PRR Talk" Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 4:00 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] GP-7 and GP-9 question > On Sun, 6 Jan 2002, Ted Andrews wrote: > > > PRR Listers: > > > > I have a question that I hope will not open a can of worms. :0 > > > > Did every GP-7 and GP-9 ordered by the Pennsy come equipped with > > train-phone antennas? I know that the GP-9B's did not come with antennas > > for obvious reasons. If not all GP-7 / GP-9's were equipped with > > antennas, what was the rational in not having antennas on all of the > > engines? > > I don't think anyone ever found a picture of a "phase 3" GP9 with a > trainphone antenna. I don't know of a list. When I have more time I might > be able to go to my notes, I know I have some from prior investigation. > > -D > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 21:32:04 -0500 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR SW7 and SW9 info. needed The PC road numbers were the mid '60s pre merger renumbering. Of course the NYC engines were also renumbered at the same time into the same sequence. Most retained this number into CR at least initially, with the other road's engines renumbered to blend in. Most PRR EMD SW units made it to Conrail, as did most GP7 - GP9 and SD9s. Joe Witcofsky ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Friedlein" To: "(PRR-Talk)" Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 10:54 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR SW7 and SW9 info. needed > I've been looking unsuccessfully through my PRR, PC and CR books and > magazines for the road number conversions for any of the SW7s and SW9s that > made it beyond the PRR's demise. (Rather than list them, the original > numbers and re-numbering while still PRR is listed in captions under photos > on pages 210 and 211 of Pennsy Power II.) > > Does anyone know which ones survived and what their numbers were under the > PC and CR? Also, were any rebuilt with only one exhaust stack? > > I found plenty of photos of them in PRR paint, but does anyone have any > photos they'd be willing to share of any of these in the successor owner > paint schemes? > > TIA for any help. > Chuck Friedlein > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] GP-7 and GP-9 question Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 21:39:27 -0600 Hi Joe--You wrote: > > For what it's worth, train-phone antennas were probably installed after > market, vs. from manufacturer. The criteria for having train-phone > equipment was geographic, as steam and diesel units assigned to electrified > territory couldn't use it due to interference from the overhead. One could > assume that System and Regional service units had train-phone while local > assignments depended on location and service requirements. > I disagree. There is lots of photo evidence of engines delivered with trainphone equipment installed. There is also lots of photo evidence of trainphone equipped engines and cabins operating under catenary; whether the equipment was used or not is another story. Why the "phase 3" GP-9's were not equipped with trainphone and prior "phase 2" GP-9's had the system as well as subsequent GP-30's is one of those PRR enigmas. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] GP-7 and GP-9 question Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 21:59:49 -0600 I've seen pictures of F units purported to be at Lagrange just prior to delivery with the antennas already installed. -----Original Message----- From: Joe Witcofsky [mailto:wojosa31@optonline.net] Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 8:24 PM To: Derrick J Brashear; PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] GP-7 and GP-9 question For what it's worth, train-phone antennas were probably installed after market, vs. from manufacturer. The criteria for having train-phone equipment was geographic, as steam and diesel units assigned to electrified territory couldn't use it due to interference from the overhead. One could assume that System and Regional service units had train-phone while local assignments depended on location and service requirements. Since the so called phase 3 GP-9s were system pool assigned, one can conclude that they had train-phone, even without photographic evidence. Even GP-30s and U-25-bs were initially equipped with train-phone, although shortly thereafter, the entire system service fleet was converted to VHF High band radios. Joe Witcofsky ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derrick J Brashear" To: "PRR Talk" Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 4:00 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] GP-7 and GP-9 question > On Sun, 6 Jan 2002, Ted Andrews wrote: > > > PRR Listers: > > > > I have a question that I hope will not open a can of worms. :0 > > > > Did every GP-7 and GP-9 ordered by the Pennsy come equipped with > > train-phone antennas? I know that the GP-9B's did not come with antennas > > for obvious reasons. If not all GP-7 / GP-9's were equipped with > > antennas, what was the rational in not having antennas on all of the > > engines? > > I don't think anyone ever found a picture of a "phase 3" GP9 with a > trainphone antenna. I don't know of a list. When I have more time I might > be able to go to my notes, I know I have some from prior investigation. > > -D > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 23:21:23 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] GP-7 and GP-9 question On Mon, 7 Jan 2002, Joe Witcofsky wrote: > Since the so called phase 3 GP-9s were system pool assigned, one can > conclude that they had train-phone, even without photographic evidence. Even How about "with photographic evidence showing during years trainphone was in service that they did not have such antennas"? I found Jim Williams' handout GP-9 7000-7144 listed as radio installed of type "US&S Transmitting and Receiving Induction System" and 7145-7269 (and all B units) having no radio installed. For what it's worth... -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TJ LInk" Subject: [PRR] Roundhouses Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 00:56:52 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C197DF.5C772D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My apologies gentlemen, on a typo. I meant to write that, as to my = knowledge, Crestline is the only PRR roundhouse in the USA. even though = it is a USRA design, it was still built for the PENNSY, therefore it is = a PRR roundhouse. I'm sure the PRR with all of the small lines it = acquired had innumerable varieties of roundhouses, probably without one = standard design. Keep in mind that with this being a USRA design, that = meant government money was invested relieving the PRR of sole financial = burden. USRA or not, it belonged to the Pennsy. I know there are lots = left in the country, but how many PRR ones? You guys know more about = this than I do, so enlighten me. Many think that this is a lost cause, = given the condition of the building, but I would like to direct anyone = who will accept the challenge to this website: = http://www.ci.salisbury.nc.us/nctrans/index.htm Thoroughly investigate this site and see what they did with a = dilapidated roundhouse. They even have photos showing how part of the = walls were missing. they built a new turntable. Crestline impossible?, = to quote John Wayne, "Not Hardly." People who care about the PRR are = what it takes. Details will come later, I'm sure there are owners of = railcars who would like a place to store them. Maybe a steamer will come = in time.=20 As for other roundhouses, in the late '80s I went to Willard to ride = on a hump engine and there was still a roundhouse there too. The triple Crown facility in Crestline is no longer in use. I heard = that it was moved to Bellevue Ohio, also heard it went to Willard too. ------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C197DF.5C772D60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My apologies gentlemen, on a typo. I meant to write that, = as=20 to my knowledge, Crestline is the only PRR=20 roundhouse in the USA. even though it is a USRA design, it was = still=20 built for the PENNSY, therefore it is a PRR roundhouse. I'm sure the PRR = with=20 all of the small lines it acquired had innumerable varieties of = roundhouses,=20 probably without one standard design. Keep in mind that with this being = a USRA=20 design, that meant government money was invested relieving the PRR of = sole=20 financial burden. USRA or not, it belonged to the Pennsy. I know there = are lots=20 left in the country, but how many PRR ones? You guys know more about = this than I=20 do, so enlighten me. Many think that this is a lost cause, given the = condition=20 of the building, but I would like to direct anyone who will accept the = challenge=20 to this website: http://www.ci.sa= lisbury.nc.us/nctrans/index.htm
Thoroughly investigate this site and see what they did with a = dilapidated=20 roundhouse. They even have photos showing how part of the = walls were=20 missing. they built a new turntable. Crestline impossible?, to quote = John Wayne,=20 "Not Hardly." People who care about the PRR are what it takes. Details = will come=20 later, I'm sure there are owners of railcars who would like a place to = store=20 them. Maybe a steamer will come in time.
    As for other roundhouses, in the late '80s I = went to=20 Willard to ride on a hump engine and there was still a roundhouse there=20 too.
    The triple Crown facility in Crestline is no = longer in=20 use. I heard that it was moved to Bellevue Ohio, also heard it went to = Willard=20 too.
------=_NextPart_000_000F_01C197DF.5C772D60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 00:57:07 -0500 From: Hiroe Subject: Re: [PRR] Crestline, what could happen, MP-54's, MP-85's. "H.&S." wrote: > > of the old PRR can be saved. Somewhere there is still > a old MP-54 or N-5 or PRR RS-3 or some station thats > > as a Condo site than the shipyard it is today. Then there are > some things that are so far gone.....that they should be scrapped. > > One for me one would be the MP-54 at Strasburg. Save > what you can and let it go. (Besides L.I. cars.....isn't > there one or two PRR cars the Wilmington and Western > has/had?). speaking of MP-54's. The two that the Wilmington and Western has are *really* beat. The metal sheeting under the concrete floor has rusted through, and the concrete is crumbling, so much so that there is significant portions of the floor missing. They're both rusting through at the the bottom of the sides, and one of the cars had every-2-other window uprights cut out, so the windows are now 3x wide. That same car is also missing pantograph, and all seats. (the other car is in a *little* better shape, still having all the window uprights, seats, and pan. It also appears that the seats may have protected the concrete floor a bit, as it's a little less crumbly. This one happens to be one of the later-year rebuilds, with the aluminum window frames. It's underframe may be intact, but i couldn't see well enough to tell for sure.) They're in such terrible state that i doubt they could even be moved somewhere, as trying to pull them out of the muck they're sinking in will probably rip the first one apart. Basically, they might be good for parts, most of which would have to be thoroughly reworked. If you wanted to try to save one, it'd take upwards of a $mil, between parts and labor. Labor for free? well, still not cheap, and we'd need a shop to do it in. Oh, and the W&W themselves want them cut up, as they want that siding back. If you want them, they're free. "Come and get 'em." As I was told. Although i'm also told that if someone made the attempt, they can probably stay where they are, as the W&W wouldn't mind having another passenger car for occasional use. A much better target for those energies would be the old Pioneer-3 class (MP-85, silverliners), that septa still uses. I hear down from Twelve-thirtyfour that they may start scrapping those, particularly when they start getting the new Arrow-5 cars in. The Advantage to this is that they're still phsically intact, and running. Personally, if it could be swung, I'd LOVE to get a pair of each subset, I.E: 268 & 269, both PRR Budd-builds, 231 & 233, both PRR St. Louie-build, and 9001 & 9013, both RDG Budd-build. For a total of 6 cars, all operating. The St. Louie-builds have the unusual distinction of having the motorman's controls on the *left* side of the cab. All of these are also air-conditioned, with the new R-134 coolant, too. Septa will probably allow self-powered fantrips on their system, and i can guarantee that the cat will probably remain at 11KV/25HZ for the rest of it's service life. (Idea being to keep them out at West Chester RR, as the wire is still up there, sans a 50-foot segment.) There's around 70 or so of them that we could choose from, so we could cherry-pick the cars in the best condition. If we luck out, we can probably have them for scrap value, provided we ask at the right time. Anyway, just an idea. --Hiroe (Drew McCann) introducing NEC-trak, fully-wired modular Corridor in N scale. Affiliated with DARN and EPT. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Viv Brice" Subject: [PRR] The Freightcars List Post 2001020559 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 21:04:52 +1100 Guys, The following link gives some interesting reading on the movement of freight cars with some stats of special interest to us SPFs http://sunny16.photo.tntech.edu/~richard/Freightcars/archive/displaypost.php 3?id=2001020559&tableID=FC_20020106_d79200cb07ce2d3c Viv Brice, another SPF from Down Under ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Jan 02 21:04:52 +1100 From: "Viv Brice" Subject: [PRR] The Freightcars List Post 2001020559 Guys, The following link gives some interesting reading on the movement of freight cars with some stats of special interest to us SPFs http://sunny16.photo.tntech.edu/~richard/Freightcars/archive/displaypost.php 3?id=2001020559&tableID=FC_20020106_d79200cb07ce2d3c Viv Brice, another SPF from Down Under ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Franke" Subject: [PRR] Dec 1974 Keystone Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 05:14:16 -0500 Does anyone have a copy of Dec 1974 Ketstone? Looking for a photocopy of the section on painting and lettering cabin cars. Thanks Mark Franke ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Hopeful" Subject: [PRR] roundhouse restoration and preservation Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:00:36 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C1981A.8E338FC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Electronic Smoke Signals on the List about roundhouse restoration and preservation have been interesting. These structures are indeed representations of an era and the industry they served. Is there a more railroad specific piece of architecture to be found? In my little tiny opinion, I believe not. In recent years there have been other PRR houses lost. The one at Northumberland come to mind. It still stood into the early 80's and it was razed. This is where the PRR historic collection was kept that now is displayed at the PA State Museum at Strasburg. . When I last poked my head around what was left of the PRR Northumberland roundhouse years ago, it was only a shell of it's former self. Seemingly ready to implode on itself. Northumberland Roundhouse would have been a money pit but it too could have been preserved. Nearly all of this can be done if monies are unlimited and with a good group of persons from the "right" circles being involved in the most critical areas of the project. There are no magic bullets to solve this desire to see Crestline preserved in some fashion. I for one would be delighted to see the facilitates at Crestline saved and I live on lines east. (I could hit lines east with a rock from the house). Think for a moment about the practical aspects of such a task. Probably just the HAZMAT/Regulatory Agency Approved site cleanup alone would be a sinker. Some big money has to come into play and fast. If any of you were familiar with the Western Maryland Railway Roundhouse Preservation project in Hagerstown, Maryland, You'll recall that even with a motivated preservationist group working with CSX things still did not work out. The roundhouse was razed after a period of time. One more thought for the day. How many visitors would be lost to the PA State Museum if the Strasburg Rail Road was non existent? For us in the "inside" it is easy to create our wish lists for preservation and collection points and locations. In reality, who foots the bill? Some Government Agency is usually required and a LOT of paying visitors coming into the site. The Strasburg Rail Road is invaluable as a tourist draw for folks, many who do not even know that the Museum across the road exists, will visit that "interesting place across the road". Live steam railroading at no daily cost to the museum (that I am aware of). A fairly wide range of technical services available from the Strasburg RR's Shops is also a good asset not often thought about.. (they even did the new "shoes" for UP 844's drivers) Now I have spent both of my two cents, which leaves me with no cents. Harry Harry W. Fitch IV PRRK4S@MSN.COM ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C1981A.8E338FC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The  Electronic Smoke Signals on = the=20 List about roundhouse restoration and preservation have been=20 interesting.  These structures are indeed representations of an era = and the=20 industry they served.  Is there a more railroad specific piece of=20 architecture to be found?  In my little tiny opinion, I believe = not. =20 In recent years there have been other PRR houses lost.  The one at=20 Northumberland come to mind.  It still stood into the early 80's = and it was=20 razed.  This is where the PRR historic collection was kept that now = is=20 displayed at the PA State Museum at Strasburg.  .  When I last = poked=20 my head around what was left of the PRR Northumberland roundhouse years = ago, it=20 was only a shell of it's former self. Seemingly ready to implode on=20 itself.  Northumberland Roundhouse would have been a money=20 pit but it too could have been=20 preserved.
 
Nearly = all of this=20 can be done if monies are unlimited and with a good group of persons from = the "right"=20 circles being involved in the most critical areas of the=20 project.
 
There = are no magic=20 bullets to solve this desire to see Crestline preserved in some = fashion.  I=20 for one would be delighted to see the facilitates at Crestline saved and = I live=20 on lines east. (I could hit lines east with a rock from the=20 house).  Think for a moment about the practical aspects of = such a=20 task.  Probably just the HAZMAT/Regulatory Agency = Approved site=20 cleanup alone would be a sinker.  Some big money has to come into = play and=20 fast. 
 
If any = of you were=20 familiar with the Western Maryland Railway Roundhouse Preservation = project in=20 Hagerstown, Maryland,  You'll recall that even with a motivated=20 preservationist group working with CSX things still did not = work=20 out.  The roundhouse was razed after a period of=20 time. 
 
One = more thought for=20 the day.  How many visitors would be lost to the PA State Museum if = the=20 Strasburg Rail Road was non existent?  For us in the "inside" it is = easy to=20 create  our wish lists for preservation and collection points and=20 locations.  In reality, who foots the bill?  Some Government = Agency is=20 usually required and a LOT of paying visitors coming into the=20 site.
The = Strasburg Rail=20 Road is invaluable as a tourist draw for folks, many who do not = even know=20 that the Museum across the road exists, will visit that "interesting = place=20 across the road".
Live = steam=20 railroading at no daily cost to the museum (that I am aware of).  A = fairly=20 wide range of technical services available from the Strasburg RR's Shops = is also a good asset not often thought about.. (they even did the = new=20 "shoes" for UP 844's drivers)
 
Now I = have spent=20 both of my two cents, which leaves me with no cents.
 
 
Harry
 
Harry W. Fitch IV
PRRK4S@MSN.COM
 
------=_NextPart_000_000C_01C1981A.8E338FC0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] Pics of completed T1 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 13:21:38 -0000 Dear all, The Bowser / GEM T1 is now painted and weathered and ready for the road ( pity there's nowhere to run it at the moment :-) 2 extra pages of Pics have been uploaded to: http://www.xclent.clara.net/model_locos/t1_1.htm Regards, John H. Wright, Washington, England. Web sites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and http://www.xclent.clara.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 07:21:03 -0800 (PST) From: Benjamin Sullivan Subject: [PRR] This could be Crestline Preservation is tricky business. This roundhouse was not saved although a valiant effort was made to save the structure, in the end preservation lost the game. Memories, plans, and photographs are all that remain... http://www.trainweb.com/roundhouse/hrm/rhimages/photos/roundemo.jpg A sad story as far as I'm concerned. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] This could be Crestline Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:08:46 -0600 An impossible task would be to rank the items that need preservation so that the funds can target a specific relic rather than have pet projects. Fifteen or fifty underfunded and hopeless situations are not as good as one succesful one. Witness the I-1 in Buffalo now. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Benjamin Sullivan" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 9:21 AM Subject: [PRR] This could be Crestline > Preservation is tricky business. This roundhouse was not saved although a > valiant effort was made to save the structure, in the end preservation lost the > game. Memories, plans, and photographs are all that remain... > > http://www.trainweb.com/roundhouse/hrm/rhimages/photos/roundemo.jpg > > A sad story as far as I'm concerned. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:37:08 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] ETTs available for download http://prr.dementia.org/documents/documents.html now includes: Akron Division Employe Time Table No. 10 (Effective September 29, 1929) Buffalo Division Employe Time Table No. 1 (Effective April 26, 1925) Cincinnati Division Employe Time-Table No. 12 (Effective April 24, 1949) Erie & Ashtabula Division Employe Time-Table No. 10 (Effective April 25, 1948) Northern Region Employe Time-Table No. 3 (Effective April 28, 1957) Monongahela Division Employe Time Table No. 14 (Effective April 24, 1932) Washington Yard Employe Time-Table No. 11 (Effective April 30, 1961) I may rescan the Northern Region timetable at some future date as I'm unhappy with how it came out in some of the page centers. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pics of completed T1 Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 13:42:10 -0500 John, Great Job!!! Couldn't spot the one detail added in the photo about the diaphragm. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] PRR Cookbook available for download Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 14:35:12 -0500 Hi all, A while ago there was talk about dining car recipies. I finally got my copy of a "Cooking Instructions for the Preperation of dishes served in Dining Cars throughout the System." scanned and OCR'd. It's a different revision than the one that the RR museum of PA reprinted. I think it's earlier but it isn't dated. I'd appreciate any help in dating it! I uploaded it to the documents section of my website at: http://prr.railfan.net/documents It's midway down on the page... It's in pdf format so you'll need the Acrobat reader to view it... I double checked the ingredient quantities but the text isn't yet thoroughly proofread. If there's anyone on the list who's willing to help proofread the cookbook. Please contact me! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 14:38:50 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] PRR Alco Hi Y'all, My brother, a D&H fan sent me this photo... http://www.railpace.com/photogallery/old/dh1.jpg Look carefully at the SECOND unit in the consist! The year is 1948, and the location is Schenectedy NY (home of ALCO). Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 14:47:32 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] lettering >Regarding the dates in the R50B discussion, they came from PRR tracings as >follows. Safety Appliance Details came from A-85726 - R50B Arrangement, >A-99709 - R50B Application of Freight Car Safety Appliances, and A-448608 >R50B Arrangement. Paint and Lettering Details came from D-85733 - R50B >Arrangement of Lettering, D-93777 - Spacing of Legends and Numerals, >C-413746 - Painting, Lettering & Numbering Arrangement [Futura] Sheet 1, >C-429417 - Painting, Lettering & Numbering Arrangement [Block] Sheet 1, >F-433145 - Exterior Painting Color Chart, C-65426 - 6" Lettering, C-462062 - >Keystone and Initials "PRR", and C-462292 - Monogram Location Diagrams. > >Bob Bob, GREAT info! In looking over the PRRT&HS book, the paint diagram there specifies "aluminum" paint for walls and "red" for floors of R50, R60, baggage and RPO cars. Any ideas as to the colors of such esoterica as the interior of the R50B, Ice compartments, hatches etc. over the years... Also, what the heck is "red"? (Aluminum I can do!) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 15:55:10 EST Subject: [PRR] restoration and preservation In a message dated 1/8/02 2:26:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, prrk4s@msn.com writes: << I think Thomas is operable now. Used to be an Eastern District Terminal switcher. >> I believe that the Strasburg may have done this "conversion" in their shops - the one in use when I was there was strictly a "slug" no chance of powering it. It was owned by an outside interest and made the circuit of tourist lines - as you observed, paying the bills. The only control function, on the one I saw, was a brake valve so that the Costumed "Driver" could stop the train. Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] P-70fbR Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 16:29:31 -0500 Hi Guys, Talking about my favorite car, so I thought I would jump in with a little info and a request (again). The P70fbR's were rebuilt from P70's begining in 1948 until about 1950-51. The PRSL was mandated by the ICC to upgrade it's passenger equipment with air- conditioning in the late 40's. I don't know if this prompted the PRR to begin the improvement program or the PRSL just took advantage of a program allready underway. At any rate they wound up with the P70fbR's with the clearstory style roof and Commonwealth trucks. The balloon roof cars were strictly for PRR service. All the cars were basically the same inside with large washrooms at the porthole window end and electrical/mechanical cabinets at the other end. I would like to do both versions of this car in "O"Scale, but I need accurate Pennsy engineering drawings to do so. If anyone out there has, or has access to the drawings for this car, please contact me. I will gladly pay any fees incurred. Thanks, Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 4:16 PM To: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] P-70fbR Unfortunately very true, however, with the disappearance of MDC's Pennsy Roller Bearing truck, they are about the only game in town. The good news is that of each set of 4 sideframes, only one is out of square. So the answer is to buy four sets of trucks and have three good ones :-(( Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: > > I misspoke! (I never make mistrakes ;-) ) As pointed out by another > >list member, the P70FBr's had "Commonwealth" not PRR trucks. > >Regards, > > And a good thing too as ECW's PRR 4 wheel trucks are only suitable for the > wastebasket due to the misalignment of the axle whole in half the castings! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Alco Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 16:32:02 -0500 Bruce, Group, I saw that photo over the weekend. What engine is up front?? Thanks Sam Vastano >From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] PRR Alco >Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 14:38:50 -0600 > >Hi Y'all, > >My brother, a D&H fan sent me this photo... >http://www.railpace.com/photogallery/old/dh1.jpg >Look carefully at the SECOND unit in the consist! The year is 1948, and >the location is Schenectedy NY (home of ALCO). > >Happy Rails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin >Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Sam Vastano McClymonds Supply & Transit Co., Inc. PH 724-368-8040 X243 Fax 724-368-9677 thayt _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 15:47:51 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Alco Sam asks > >I saw that photo over the weekend. What engine is up front?? >>http://www.railpace.com/photogallery/old/dh1.jpg >>Look carefully at the SECOND unit in the consist! The year is 1948, and >>the location is Schenectedy NY (home of ALCO). Sam, That's a D&H Challenger (4-6-6-4), very near its birthplace (ALCO). Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 17:11:45 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR Color Guide 3 From: Jerry Britton Just received Morning Sun's "PRR Color Guide to Freight and Passenger Equipment, Volume Three". Here's the two minute drill: * Two shots of P70FBR side by side - one clerestory roof, one arch roof * P70FR - Fairly unique * Excellent side shot of clean P70GSR, second shot of same * Decent shot of P70KR * Good shot of POC70R --- hey, this is starting to sound like an ad for East Wind Mfg.! --- * shot of a clean MP54T (I didn't know they ever washed them!) Heck, it might be easier to note the classes with CLEAN shots... PB70, D78F, D78D, BM70N, several Parlors, HW 10-4, PS13 in FoM, PS125A, Eagle Eye in "Eagle" livery, Stoney Rapids in UP livery, PS6L, POS211, PS106B, D85A, D85C/D85D X41B in silver MS scheme, 1953 work train (Westerfield camp cars!), an "okay" shot of a wire train, Also, a high angle shot of a messenger B60B; Interior color shots of PS6L and POS21 --- can you tell I'm a passenger buff? --- The production is first rate and most photos are very sharp focus, much better than the first two volumes. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 17:30:52 EST Subject: [PRR] 1966 renumbering In a message dated 1/7/02 11:04:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR SW7 and SW9 info. needed From: "Joe Witcofsky" Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 21:32:04 -0500 The PC road numbers were the mid '60s pre merger renumbering. Of course the NYC engines were also renumbered at the same time into the same sequence. Most retained this number into CR at least initially, with the other road's engines renumbered to blend in. Most PRR EMD SW units made it to Conrail, as did most GP7 - GP9 and SD9s. Joe Witcofsky >> By the best information I have, PRR and NYC units needing renumbering for the PC merger were "officially" renumbered in April 1966. While this was not quite the daub-and-slop job that came 10 years later with Conrail, a great many pictures suggest much renumbering was done simply by painting out the old numbers, then stenciling the new ones. Now to cause trouble -- when this Great Blot occurred, were most of the PRR paintouts in DGLE, or were many in DOEB (dingy old engine black)? Remember, PRR engines were done in PRR shops, and NYC engines in NYC's "Oil Engine Shops". We can if course exclude the EMD E7 and E8 units, which appear to have been uniformly painted out in tuscan. The renumbering was interesting -- for example, all the 300+ PRR GP'9's kept their numbers (NYC and later NH units were slipped in as 7400 and 7500's). But the PRR GP7's were all remarked (e.g. 5800's) to fit above the NYC number series. Most of the newer PRR 6-motors were already in the 6xxx series (and NYC/NH contributed nothing), but older 6-axle Alcos and Baldwins were renumbered into it at this time. Also, the veteran EMD SD7's and SD9's were renumbered into the 6900's. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 17:39:36 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Alco Sorry for the off-topic comment, but boy is the first engine beautiful... Shame the PRR didn't have any (attempt to return to on-topic ). Thanks for posting the picture. > >That's a D&H Challenger (4-6-6-4), very near its birthplace (ALCO). > Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] 1966 renumbering Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 16:42:22 -0600 Interesting. My guess would be that the RR that had the most units of a class kept their numbers when possible to minimize the number that needed to be changed. There is also the legal ramification of changing a units number since the original has to be retired before assigning the new number. It has something to do with accounting rules but don't ask me what. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 4:30 PM Subject: [PRR] 1966 renumbering > In a message dated 1/7/02 11:04:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > << Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR SW7 and SW9 info. needed > From: "Joe Witcofsky" > Date: Mon, 07 Jan 2002 21:32:04 -0500 > > The PC road numbers were the mid '60s pre merger renumbering. Of course the > NYC > engines were also renumbered at the same time into the same sequence. Most > retained this number into CR at least initially, with the other road's > engines renumbered to blend in. Most PRR EMD SW units made it to Conrail, as > did most GP7 - GP9 and SD9s. > > Joe Witcofsky >> > > By the best information I have, PRR and NYC units needing renumbering for the > PC merger were "officially" renumbered in April 1966. While this was not > quite the daub-and-slop job that came 10 years later with Conrail, a great > many pictures suggest much renumbering was done simply by painting out the > old numbers, then stenciling the new ones. > > Now to cause trouble -- when this Great Blot occurred, were most of the PRR > paintouts in DGLE, or were many in DOEB (dingy old engine black)? Remember, > PRR engines were done in PRR shops, and NYC engines in NYC's "Oil Engine > Shops". We can if course exclude the EMD E7 and E8 units, which appear to > have been uniformly painted out in tuscan. > > The renumbering was interesting -- for example, all the 300+ PRR GP'9's kept > their numbers (NYC and later NH units were slipped in as 7400 and 7500's). > But the PRR GP7's were all remarked (e.g. 5800's) to fit above the NYC number > series. > > Most of the newer PRR 6-motors were already in the 6xxx series (and NYC/NH > contributed nothing), but older 6-axle Alcos and Baldwins were renumbered > into it at this time. Also, the veteran EMD SD7's and SD9's were renumbered > into the 6900's. > > > Rick Tipton > Louisville KY > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 18:34:18 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] Delmarva Division 9/26/54 ETT available as PDF http://prr.dementia.org/documents/documents.html Delmarva Division Employe Time-Table No. 6 (Effective September 26, 1954) Enjoy. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2002 20:10:01 -0500 From: James Stob Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cookbook available for download --------------2E1408B54BEF5036001B4082 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Rob, Happy New Year....and THANKS so much for your efforts to put the PRR Dining Car cooking instructions on your site!! I have downloaded it, and will be happy to help proof it. It may take some time, but I will get back to you. Again, Thanks!! Visit my PRR Dining Car China/Silver pages at: www.home.mindspring.com/~jimstob/index.html Rob Schoenberg wrote: > Hi all, > > A while ago there was talk about dining car recipies. > I finally got my copy of a "Cooking Instructions for > the Preperation of dishes served in Dining Cars throughout > the System." scanned and OCR'd. It's a different revision > than the one that the RR museum of PA reprinted. I think > it's earlier but it isn't dated. I'd appreciate any help > in dating it! > > I uploaded it to the documents section of my website at: > http://prr.railfan.net/documents > It's midway down on the page... > > It's in pdf format so you'll need the Acrobat reader to > view it... I double checked the ingredient quantities but > the text isn't yet thoroughly proofread. > > If there's anyone on the list who's willing to help proofread > the cookbook. Please contact me! > > Rob > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --------------2E1408B54BEF5036001B4082 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Rob,

Happy New Year....and THANKS so much for your efforts to put the PRR Dining Car cooking instructions on your site!!  I have downloaded it, and will be happy to help proof it.  It may take some time, but I will get back to you.

Again,

Thanks!!
 

Visit my PRR Dining Car China/Silver pages at:

www.home.mindspring.com/~jimstob/index.html

Rob Schoenberg wrote:

Hi all,

A while ago there was talk about dining car recipies.
I finally got my copy of a "Cooking Instructions for
the Preperation of dishes served in Dining Cars throughout
the System." scanned and OCR'd.  It's a different revision
than the one that the RR museum of PA reprinted.  I think
it's earlier but it isn't dated.  I'd appreciate any help
in dating it!

I uploaded it to the documents section of my website at:
http://prr.railfan.net/documents
It's midway down on the page...

It's in pdf format so you'll need the Acrobat reader to
view it...  I double checked the ingredient quantities but
the text isn't yet thoroughly proofread.

If there's anyone on the list who's willing to help proofread
the cookbook.  Please contact me!

Rob

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.

--------------2E1408B54BEF5036001B4082-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cookbook available for download Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 23:38:28 -0500 Rob: I reviewed the recipes on your web site and read each recipe throughout the book. (There are several that I wish to try.) Besides some spelling errors, there are no obvious errors or omissions to each recipe. All will have to be kitchen tested before publishing just to make sure, though. The PRR apparently used there own measuring system in the dining cars. They use "coffee cup", "demitasse cup" and "kitchen spoon" liberally as measuring devices. It will be necessary to procure one of each item and measure them against the "standard" measuring cup system. Or, a good guess could be made!!! I did notice that the pancake recipes are supposed to yield one gallon of batter, but with the quantities given, it would be difficult to reach that goal by 60%. Each recipe will have to be prepared and followed in exact detail to make sure all that is printed is correct. I'll be glad to offer my culinary experience to bring this cookbook back to life. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Schoenberg" To: "PRR-talk" Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 2:35 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Cookbook available for download > Hi all, > > A while ago there was talk about dining car recipies. > I finally got my copy of a "Cooking Instructions for > the Preperation of dishes served in Dining Cars throughout > the System." scanned and OCR'd. It's a different revision > than the one that the RR museum of PA reprinted. I think > it's earlier but it isn't dated. I'd appreciate any help > in dating it! > > I uploaded it to the documents section of my website at: > http://prr.railfan.net/documents > It's midway down on the page... > > It's in pdf format so you'll need the Acrobat reader to > view it... I double checked the ingredient quantities but > the text isn't yet thoroughly proofread. > > If there's anyone on the list who's willing to help proofread > the cookbook. Please contact me! > > Rob > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cookbook available for download Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 00:17:27 -0500 Dear Chris: Hey thanks for responding. On what do you base this info? From the recipe for minced ham with scrambled eggs, 4T=1KS makes sense. (4 Tablespoons equals 1/4 cup. 1/4 cup IS a standard serving for some items.) However, in some of the muffin recipes, they call for dry and liquid measures of ingredients in both 2 kitchen spoonsfull and 1/2 cups. Makes me wonder why they are not consistent with one type of measure..... Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chany, Christopher" To: "'Lewis J. Matt PhD'" ; "Rob Schoenberg" Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 12:31 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Cookbook available for download > Lew, > I believe a kitchen spoonful equals 4 Tablespoons. > Chris Chany > > -----Original Message----- > From: Lewis J. Matt PhD [mailto:lmatt@alltel.net] > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 11:38 PM > To: Rob Schoenberg > Cc: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cookbook available for download > > > Rob: > > I reviewed the recipes on your web site and read each recipe throughout the > book. (There are several that I wish to try.) Besides some spelling > errors, there are no obvious errors or omissions to each recipe. All will > have to be kitchen tested before publishing just to make sure, though. > > The PRR apparently used there own measuring system in the dining cars. They > use "coffee cup", "demitasse cup" and "kitchen spoon" liberally as measuring > devices. It will be necessary to procure one of each item and measure them > against the "standard" measuring cup system. Or, a good guess could be > made!!! I did notice that the pancake recipes are supposed to yield one > gallon of batter, but with the quantities given, it would be difficult to > reach that goal by 60%. > > Each recipe will have to be prepared and followed in exact detail to make > sure all that is printed is correct. I'll be glad to offer my culinary > experience to bring this cookbook back to life. > > Lew Matt > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rob Schoenberg" > To: "PRR-talk" > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 2:35 PM > Subject: [PRR] PRR Cookbook available for download > > > > Hi all, > > > > A while ago there was talk about dining car recipies. > > I finally got my copy of a "Cooking Instructions for > > the Preperation of dishes served in Dining Cars throughout > > the System." scanned and OCR'd. It's a different revision > > than the one that the RR museum of PA reprinted. I think > > it's earlier but it isn't dated. I'd appreciate any help > > in dating it! > > > > I uploaded it to the documents section of my website at: > > http://prr.railfan.net/documents > > It's midway down on the page... > > > > It's in pdf format so you'll need the Acrobat reader to > > view it... I double checked the ingredient quantities but > > the text isn't yet thoroughly proofread. > > > > If there's anyone on the list who's willing to help proofread > > the cookbook. Please contact me! > > > > Rob > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 01:04:42 EST Subject: [PRR] Renumbering under equipment trusts -- questions for a In a message dated 1/8/02 5:46:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, nbell@repco.com writes: << Interesting. My guess would be that the RR that had the most units of a class kept their numbers when possible to minimize the number that needed to be changed.>> That's always a leading objective when mass renumbering takes place -- and the "PC" scheme was no exception, with large numbers of units keeping their pre-merger numbers. << There is also the legal ramification of changing a units number since the original has to be retired before assigning the new number. It has something to do with accounting rules but don't ask me what. >> This statement sounds twitchier, and the railroads' behavior says it's not true. In the PC merger, lots of units were renumbered and other units immediately assumed the vacated road number. In a few cases, the timing was off and there were two of the same number running around -- made life interesting. In allied fun, we often hear the urban tale that railroads are prohibited from changing numbers on cars or locomotives because the bank won't allow it. I believe the correct response to this one is "not exactly". Most rolling stock is purchased under a type of bank-administered 15 year loan called an "equipment trust". At any given time, the PRR would be running cars and locomotives from many different E.T.'s. The bank will require that rolling stock financed by one given equipment trust be readily identified. At one time, trust plates were applied to assist in this identification. The accounting obligation on railroad equipment has to do with the period of the equipment trust, not the rolling stock's retirement per se. Notice that an ET's duration of 15 years is an interesting period for a diesel loco, because supposedly a diesel is topdecked at 4 years, rebuilt and repainted at 8, topdecked again at 12 years, and then up for rebuilding again at 16 years. Rebuilding's an expensive process, and if the loco is a loser, it won't get rebuilt the second time. Legally, a locomotive cannot be scrapped until its 15 year trust is paid off. This is why lots of minority diesels started disappearing about 1962 -- the Pennsy started buying them about 1947. A number of dieselized roads kept late steam in storage for years -- not because it would ever run again, but because it was still "under trust" -- we know that Crestline, Columbus and Altoona were full of dead steam for quite a spell. It's not an accident that many engines went to scrap shortly after their 15th birthday - only their trust period had preserved them. Returning to the issue of renumbering locos or even cars not yet paid off -- all the bank cares about is that the security for the loan is still verifiable as long as the trust lasts. All of you've seen ex-PRR cars in Conrail paint and with Conrail numbers -- but with a smallish stencil at upper right that tells what the PRR car number originally was. Hope you found this interesting. Now I'm going to shut up and let the lawyers or the trust specialists from GE Capital tell me how much of this I've got wrong... Rick T. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 06:21:22 -0500 Subject: [PRR] RR Museum of Penna News From: Jerry Britton Received my "Milepost" newsletter from the Friends of the Railroad Museum (Strasburg) yesterday. Items of note: The M1 move mentioned last week on PRR-talk places this loco on track one, along the fence and road. Nice location, if she can't be indoors. In 1997, Eric Levin arranged for Conrail to donate an H34a covered hopper -- PC #32867 -- to the museum. During transport a coupler broke and Conrail left the car in an unused siding in Dillerville, where it has sat since. When NS took over, they wanted the car cleared out and delivered it recently, for free. The Danbury Railway Museum has donated to the museum what is thought to be the "last surviving PRR GS class gondola". It wasn't within their charter to preserve it, so they contacted the museum and made the donation. The car is now in Strasburg. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 06:33:03 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Passenger Car Interiors From: Jerry Britton A few weeks ago there was an inquiry about passenger car interior colors. Though there are only a few pics, there are a lot of captions in "PRR Color Guide Freight and Passenger Equipment, Volume Three" (just released) that describe the color of the décor in numerous classes of cars. As an example, for POC85R for the "South Wind" (p. 26) the description reads "Inside the car, the walls were painted gray, dark on the bottom and light on the top. Ceilings were pale yellow in the sides with white in the center. The carpeting and window draperies were a deep mulberry, and the upholstery of the seating was in various shades of mulberry." That's only an example. There are probably a dozen such descriptions. There are two interior shots of a PS6L and one interior shot of a POS21. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Renumbering under equipment trusts -- questions for a Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 09:28:41 -0500 Rick and list: I do recall a line of dead J's lined up at Columbus, OH, that were lined up by Trust Plate Date - they were sent to scrap when the trust expired. Verified this by looking at the trust plates on the cabs. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 1:04 AM Subject: [PRR] Renumbering under equipment trusts -- questions for a specialist > In a message dated 1/8/02 5:46:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, nbell@repco.com > writes: > > << Interesting. My guess would be that the RR that had the most units of a > class kept their numbers when possible to minimize the number that needed to > be changed.>> > > That's always a leading objective when mass renumbering takes place -- and > the "PC" scheme was no exception, with large numbers of units keeping their > pre-merger numbers. > > << There is also the legal ramification of changing a units number > since the original has to be retired before assigning the new number. It > has something to do with accounting rules but don't ask me what. >> > > This statement sounds twitchier, and the railroads' behavior says it's not > true. In the PC merger, lots of units were renumbered and other units > immediately assumed the vacated road number. In a few cases, the timing was > off and there were two of the same number running around -- made life > interesting. > > In allied fun, we often hear the urban tale that railroads are prohibited > from changing numbers on cars or locomotives because the bank won't allow it. > I believe the correct response to this one is "not exactly". Most rolling > stock is purchased under a type of bank-administered 15 year loan called an > "equipment trust". At any given time, the PRR would be running cars and > locomotives from many different E.T.'s. The bank will require that rolling > stock financed by one given equipment trust be readily identified. At one > time, trust plates were applied to assist in this identification. > > The accounting obligation on railroad equipment has to do with the period of > the equipment trust, not the rolling stock's retirement per se. Notice that > an ET's duration of 15 years is an interesting period for a diesel loco, > because supposedly a diesel is topdecked at 4 years, rebuilt and repainted at > 8, topdecked again at 12 years, and then up for rebuilding again at 16 years. > Rebuilding's an expensive process, and if the loco is a loser, it won't get > rebuilt the second time. > > Legally, a locomotive cannot be scrapped until its 15 year trust is paid off. > This is why lots of minority diesels started disappearing about 1962 -- the > Pennsy started buying them about 1947. A number of dieselized roads kept > late steam in storage for years -- not because it would ever run again, but > because it was still "under trust" -- we know that Crestline, Columbus and > Altoona were full of dead steam for quite a spell. It's not an accident that > many engines went to scrap shortly after their 15th birthday - only their > trust period had preserved them. > > Returning to the issue of renumbering locos or even cars not yet paid off -- > all the bank cares about is that the security for the loan is still > verifiable as long as the trust lasts. All of you've seen ex-PRR cars in > Conrail paint and with Conrail numbers -- but with a smallish stencil at > upper right that tells what the PRR car number originally was. > > Hope you found this interesting. Now I'm going to shut up and let the > lawyers or the trust specialists from GE Capital tell me how much of this > I've got wrong... > > > > Rick T. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: [PRR] Renumbering Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 08:51:02 -0600 The basis for my comment about renumbering was recollection of the Bicentennial engines that were not normally #1776 or #1976. I recall several RR's had to do some early retirements or some other paperwork to change the numbers. These requirements may have been RR specific or the rules may be different when merging since there would almost certainly be numbering conflicts. One of the experts in RR minutia will have to explain the reasons or logic. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 09:55:23 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Photos of P70GSR Models From: Jerry Britton Andy Miller has built up a pair of P70GSR's in HO scale, using Laser Horizons' car sides. He sent me photos, which I have posted in the Modeling section of Keystone Crossings. See the Passenger section, about halfway down the page, at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/ ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 11:56:06 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS eStore From: Jerry Britton For those who are not members of the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society (PRRT&HS) and have not already heard, it is now easier than ever to join. The PRRT&HS now has an eStore at http://store.prrths.com It is currently possible to pay online for NEW or RENEWAL memberships with the Society. You can also donate to various Society projects online. In the future you will be able to purchase Society books, back issues of "The Keystone", paint drift cars, and other products online. Membership in the Society includes a subscription to "The Keystone", which is worth the membership price alone, in my opinion. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Cookbook available for download Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 12:31:36 -0500 Lew, I believe a kitchen spoonful equals 4 Tablespoons. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Lewis J. Matt PhD [mailto:lmatt@alltel.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 11:38 PM To: Rob Schoenberg Cc: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cookbook available for download Rob: I reviewed the recipes on your web site and read each recipe throughout the book. (There are several that I wish to try.) Besides some spelling errors, there are no obvious errors or omissions to each recipe. All will have to be kitchen tested before publishing just to make sure, though. The PRR apparently used there own measuring system in the dining cars. They use "coffee cup", "demitasse cup" and "kitchen spoon" liberally as measuring devices. It will be necessary to procure one of each item and measure them against the "standard" measuring cup system. Or, a good guess could be made!!! I did notice that the pancake recipes are supposed to yield one gallon of batter, but with the quantities given, it would be difficult to reach that goal by 60%. Each recipe will have to be prepared and followed in exact detail to make sure all that is printed is correct. I'll be glad to offer my culinary experience to bring this cookbook back to life. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rob Schoenberg" To: "PRR-talk" Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 2:35 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR Cookbook available for download > Hi all, > > A while ago there was talk about dining car recipies. > I finally got my copy of a "Cooking Instructions for > the Preperation of dishes served in Dining Cars throughout > the System." scanned and OCR'd. It's a different revision > than the one that the RR museum of PA reprinted. I think > it's earlier but it isn't dated. I'd appreciate any help > in dating it! > > I uploaded it to the documents section of my website at: > http://prr.railfan.net/documents > It's midway down on the page... > > It's in pdf format so you'll need the Acrobat reader to > view it... I double checked the ingredient quantities but > the text isn't yet thoroughly proofread. > > If there's anyone on the list who's willing to help proofread > the cookbook. Please contact me! > > Rob > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 09:43:59 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: [PRR] Gee, guys, I didn't mean to stir up such a ruckus -- (tee hee hee). For you newcomer who haven't been hanging on this list since 1997, a bit of hitory is in order. When I first got on here in October 1997 and started writing about Lines West, I was met with some serious hositlity. That has changed. There is now a greater appreciationi of the entire Pennsylvania system -- from Montauck to Keokuk (from 1890-1927, Peoria, Chicago & St. Louis. From Louisville, Cincinnati and Marietta to Chicago, Mackinac City and Detroit. ITS all this naiton's greatest railroad. Tom Vondruska __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 12:52:07 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] From: Jerry Britton On 1/9/02 12:43 PM, Tom Vondruska (prrlineswest@yahoo.com) wrote: > Gee, guys, I didn't mean to stir up such a ruckus -- > (tee hee hee). > > For you newcomer who haven't been hanging on this > list since 1997, a bit of hitory is in order. When I > first got on here in October 1997 and started writing > about Lines West, I was met with some serious > hositlity. That has changed. There is now a greater > appreciationi of the entire Pennsylvania system -- > from Montauck to Keokuk (from 1890-1927, Peoria, > Chicago & St. Louis. From Louisville, Cincinnati and > Marietta to Chicago, Mackinac City and Detroit. > > ITS all this naiton's greatest railroad. > And a LOUD complaint was that the PRRT&HS annual meetings were never west of Pittsburgh...now 2004 is scheduled in Cincinnati! And don't forget the "Lines West Fans Fest"! Although I guess it's been a while since one was held. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Patrick Grace" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cookbook available for download Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 18:11:09 -0000 Lew, If you are going to test the cookbook, what about also adding metric measures, I do know that American Imperial and British Imperial measures are not the same... Patrick Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" To: "Rob Schoenberg" Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 4:38 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cookbook available for download > Rob: > > I reviewed the recipes on your web site and read each recipe throughout the > book. (There are several that I wish to try.) Besides some spelling > errors, there are no obvious errors or omissions to each recipe. All will > have to be kitchen tested before publishing just to make sure, though. > > The PRR apparently used there own measuring system in the dining cars. They > use "coffee cup", "demitasse cup" and "kitchen spoon" liberally as measuring > devices. It will be necessary to procure one of each item and measure them > against the "standard" measuring cup system. Or, a good guess could be > made!!! I did notice that the pancake recipes are supposed to yield one > gallon of batter, but with the quantities given, it would be difficult to > reach that goal by 60%. > > Each recipe will have to be prepared and followed in exact detail to make > sure all that is printed is correct. I'll be glad to offer my culinary > experience to bring this cookbook back to life. > > Lew Matt > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rob Schoenberg" > To: "PRR-talk" > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 2:35 PM > Subject: [PRR] PRR Cookbook available for download > > > > Hi all, > > > > A while ago there was talk about dining car recipies. > > I finally got my copy of a "Cooking Instructions for > > the Preperation of dishes served in Dining Cars throughout > > the System." scanned and OCR'd. It's a different revision > > than the one that the RR museum of PA reprinted. I think > > it's earlier but it isn't dated. I'd appreciate any help > > in dating it! > > > > I uploaded it to the documents section of my website at: > > http://prr.railfan.net/documents > > It's midway down on the page... > > > > It's in pdf format so you'll need the Acrobat reader to > > view it... I double checked the ingredient quantities but > > the text isn't yet thoroughly proofread. > > > > If there's anyone on the list who's willing to help proofread > > the cookbook. Please contact me! > > > > Rob > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 10:14:12 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: Re: [PRR] CRESTLINE is boring --- steven hanlon wrote: > > > PRR Lines West Forever! Real Railroads didn't use > > catenary! > > i am just starting to get more interested in the > Lines West. My father grew > up along the PRR and i never knew. he was actually > bewteen the B&O, PRR, > and N&W in Ohio. very interesting railroad country > out there, esp. around > Cadiz. > > as for the catenary comment... you trying to tell me > the Milwaukee road isn't > a real railroad. pshaw. > > -steve Of, course I'm only kidding. I say that just to get the dander up of those with narrow vision. I'm not kidding in my last accidentally stealth post when I say that my entrance into this list was greeted with hostility five years ago. The Lines East focus of the PRRT&HS had become s self-fulfilling prophecy -- everybody I know likes Lines East, gee, it'd be nice if someone did something on Lines West but I don't why they would since EVERYBODY I KNOW is only interested in Lines East. It was the Internet that made the broadening of this focus possible as well as initiating the inevitable change when the PRRT&HS is primarily a society of historians and modelers as the opportunity to "rail fan the Pennsylvania Railroad" continue to dwindle (unless the Norfolk Southern changes its name to its pre-Conrail merger nickname). I don't mean to belittle the special place Crest line has in some of your memories but when you live out in Lines West Land, there's lot more opportunities of railroad archaeology than scoping out or preserving some brick ruins just west of East Jesus and real close to nowhere in southeastern Crawford County. Crestline, as a PRR division town in the middle of nowhere, is very similar to Bradford, Ohio, about 45 miles north of Dayton. I know it has an active historical society interested in trains and Scott Trostle has written a book about it -- "Bradford, a Pennsylvania Railroad Town." Tom V. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Cookbook available for download Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:45:46 -0500 Lew, Every issue of the Keystone has a recipe in it and Mr. Blardone the editor always makes mention of the fact that 4 tbs = 1 Kitchenspoonful. He might also mention what other obscure PRR measures are if they are in that recipe. The Kitchenspoonful has been in so many that it's committed to memory. Tonight I'll check my PRR cookbook reprint to see if it has any other conversions in it. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 12:48:25 -0600 But of course after Cincinnati, our board of directors decided to hold the convention in ... Harrisburg, and signed once again a multi-year contract with the Penn Harris. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 11:52 AM To: Tom Vondruska; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] On 1/9/02 12:43 PM, Tom Vondruska (prrlineswest@yahoo.com) wrote: > Gee, guys, I didn't mean to stir up such a ruckus -- > (tee hee hee). > > For you newcomer who haven't been hanging on this > list since 1997, a bit of hitory is in order. When I > first got on here in October 1997 and started writing > about Lines West, I was met with some serious > hositlity. That has changed. There is now a greater > appreciationi of the entire Pennsylvania system -- > from Montauck to Keokuk (from 1890-1927, Peoria, > Chicago & St. Louis. From Louisville, Cincinnati and > Marietta to Chicago, Mackinac City and Detroit. > > ITS all this naiton's greatest railroad. > And a LOUD complaint was that the PRRT&HS annual meetings were never west of Pittsburgh...now 2004 is scheduled in Cincinnati! And don't forget the "Lines West Fans Fest"! Although I guess it's been a while since one was held. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 13:59:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations From: Jerry Britton On 1/9/02 1:48 PM, Cadwell, Marvin L (cadwelml@bp.com) wrote: > But of course after Cincinnati, our board of directors decided to hold the > convention in ... Harrisburg, and signed once again a multi-year contract > with the Penn Harris. > Other than the fact that I am only 15 minutes away from Camp Hill... I think in looking at the "big picture" Harrisburg is a very good location due to several factors, one of which being access to transportation. It is readily accessible by auto, train, and air. I believe that 50% of the Society lives with 90 minutes or so of Philadelphia. So why aren't the meetings in Philly? I'd be willing to bet that if you calculate the AVERAGE travel time for all members attending that Harrisburg is a good average. You have 1/2 of the attendees travelling from the Philly area (<120 minutes) and the rest traveling from all over. I understand and do not disagree with those that cry foul about the repeat appearances in Harrisburg and slighting of other area. In a more perfect situation, I would like to see Harrisburg EVERY OTHER YEAR and alternate with a site to the east and a site to the west. You also need to remember that volunteers are needed to manage every meeting's locale. It took a bit of wrangling to work out the situation for Cincinnati in 2004. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:14:12 -0600 The test will be attendance in Cincinatti as to viability. My opinion on eastern support is that is the area that the PRR was dominant with little or know competition. I don't think the western lines had the same position. Therefore there are more choices for interest. Maybe if the PRR had survived it would be the NS or CSX of today. We'll never know. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Cadwell, Marvin L" ; "Tom Vondruska" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations > On 1/9/02 1:48 PM, Cadwell, Marvin L (cadwelml@bp.com) wrote: > > > But of course after Cincinnati, our board of directors decided to hold the > > convention in ... Harrisburg, and signed once again a multi-year contract > > with the Penn Harris. > > > Other than the fact that I am only 15 minutes away from Camp Hill... > > I think in looking at the "big picture" Harrisburg is a very good location > due to several factors, one of which being access to transportation. It is > readily accessible by auto, train, and air. > > I believe that 50% of the Society lives with 90 minutes or so of > Philadelphia. So why aren't the meetings in Philly? I'd be willing to bet > that if you calculate the AVERAGE travel time for all members attending that > Harrisburg is a good average. You have 1/2 of the attendees travelling from > the Philly area (<120 minutes) and the rest traveling from all over. > > I understand and do not disagree with those that cry foul about the repeat > appearances in Harrisburg and slighting of other area. In a more perfect > situation, I would like to see Harrisburg EVERY OTHER YEAR and alternate > with a site to the east and a site to the west. > > You also need to remember that volunteers are needed to manage every > meeting's locale. It took a bit of wrangling to work out the situation for > Cincinnati in 2004. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: [PRR] Sam Rea Lines Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:15:49 -0600 Does anybody model the proposed Samuel Rea Lines? I have thoughts regarding how I would model this ( definitely with catenary). Has anybody else thought of trying anything. I'd be interested in your ideas. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Pennsy Nut" Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 13:27:11 -0600 Hi Jerry and List. How about all the PRRTHS members living all over the country? I live in Texas, and I would bet there are many more SPF's not living in the state of Pennsylvania. But, obviously, we all have to travel a long way to get up there. :) And, if we don't fly! :) The one time I did get up there, was to drive. And that way, I get to do all sorts of other crazy things along the way. Like visit Altoona, the EBT, and all those other goodies! Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 14:27:15 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations From: Jerry Britton On 1/9/02 2:14 PM, Norm Bell (nbell@repco.com) wrote: > The test will be attendance in Cincinatti as to viability. When an informal poll was taken at the 2001 convention about the viability of Cincinnati, a stunning 90% or so indicated they would go! However, a very high number of vendors indicated they would attend but perhaps not as a vendor! > My opinion on > eastern support is that is the area that the PRR was dominant with little or > know competition. I don't think the western lines had the same position. > Therefore there are more choices for interest. Maybe if the PRR had > survived it would be the NS or CSX of today. We'll never know. A similar thing to consider is that, while "Lines East" had its share of branch lines, the PRR was predominantly a four-track mainline from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh. Once west of Pittsburgh, everything scattered. You can foresee one "Lines West" fan wanting a meeting on one two track main and being offended if the meeting were held on the "other" two track main line, etc. Just a thought. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 14:50:58 -0500 One thing that I really miss from past conventions is tours! The tours of local railroad or industry facilities were always one of the more looked forward to parts of the conventions... It's a shame that the decision seems to have been made to eliminate these from the convention agendas... (I can't really blame them, as tours take an amazing amount of work to set up and I'm guessing the last minute snafus on the last few tours they ran were the last straw....) Rob http://prr.railfan.net > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry > Britton > Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 1:59 PM > To: Cadwell, Marvin L; Tom Vondruska; PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations > > > On 1/9/02 1:48 PM, Cadwell, Marvin L (cadwelml@bp.com) wrote: > > > But of course after Cincinnati, our board of directors decided > to hold the > > convention in ... Harrisburg, and signed once again a > multi-year contract > > with the Penn Harris. > > > Other than the fact that I am only 15 minutes away from Camp Hill... > > I think in looking at the "big picture" Harrisburg is a very good location > due to several factors, one of which being access to transportation. It is > readily accessible by auto, train, and air. > > I believe that 50% of the Society lives with 90 minutes or so of > Philadelphia. So why aren't the meetings in Philly? I'd be willing to bet > that if you calculate the AVERAGE travel time for all members > attending that > Harrisburg is a good average. You have 1/2 of the attendees > travelling from > the Philly area (<120 minutes) and the rest traveling from all over. > > I understand and do not disagree with those that cry foul about the repeat > appearances in Harrisburg and slighting of other area. In a more perfect > situation, I would like to see Harrisburg EVERY OTHER YEAR and alternate > with a site to the east and a site to the west. > > You also need to remember that volunteers are needed to manage every > meeting's locale. It took a bit of wrangling to work out the situation for > Cincinnati in 2004. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 14:56:10 EST From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations Folks, I'm not terribly crazy about the ongoing Harrisburg conventions either, but what can ya say? That area does have some real positives: nice setting around the hotel and a general lack of congestion; still some strong Pennsy influences; not far from Strasburg and the Lancaster area; good Amtrak service; plentiful accomodations at the convention hotel; good poximity for a large share of the Society members. BUT, on the other side of the coin, this really gets a little old. Lovely as the area is, three years in a row gets a bit stale; there's not a huge amount of modeling in the area for layout tours; it's still a long way to go for many members. I realize the old and valid argument that most other areas don't have the organizational skills and experience as readily available, but this comes across as a bit of a self-fulfilling prophesy. Rather like the quarterback who never gets played and then is benched because he's inexperienced. We'll see, but it looks like Camp Hill is already set for future years. Cinncy isn't a bad choice for a location, but is indeed at one of the Pennsy's extremeties to be sure, and a town with many contenders for railfan affection. Even saying it's an exceptionaly good meeting, when's the next year available? What is it, 2005 or so? Maybe some really unexpected contender will pop up one of these years. (Indy? Fort Wayne?Buffalo maybe?) Should be fun. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 14:57:53 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations From: Jerry Britton On 1/9/02 2:50 PM, Rob Schoenberg (robs@actel.com) wrote: > One thing that I really miss from past conventions is tours! > The tours of local railroad or industry facilities were always > one of the more looked forward to parts of the conventions... Agreed. I know at 2000 there was a last minute cancellation of a tour at Steelton. And last year the State announced that it could not run the archives tour for 2002 as originally planned (in 2000) due to renovations. > > It's a shame that the decision seems to have been made to > eliminate these from the convention agendas... > > (I can't really blame them, as tours take an amazing amount > of work to set up and I'm guessing the last minute snafus on > the last few tours they ran were the last straw....) > In the past I have suggested a tour of the ADM plant, which was recently expanded and huge, that is on the old Cumberland Valley Branch. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 14:04:40 -0600 I would agree with you about having the majority of conventions in Harrisburg because of its convenient location, and I recognize the difficulty of finding volunteers needed to organize and carry out a successful convention. Having said that, the PRR is an organization that has been gone for over 30 years and encompassed not only the east, but the mid-west and was the major railroad in such cities as Columbus, Oh., Indianapolis, Indiana, and a very influential railroad in such places as Chicago, Il., St. Louis, Mo., Cincinnati,Oh., Cleveland,Oh., etc.. There are people in these Lines West regions who either cannot, or will not, attend a convetnion in the East, and who could contribute greatly to expanding our understanding of the railroad outside the caternized area. I belong to another Historical Society which goes out of its way to schedule its convention at a different location each year. It is literally amzaing how they manage to obtain hosts and speakers (most of whom by the way are not members of the society) to share their knowlegede of the railroad and its operation within their home areas. As time passes, those who actually workerd for the PRR will no longer be here and a major portion of that history will be lost. I also fear that the convention will become stale if held in the same location every year. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 12:59 PM To: Cadwell, Marvin L; Tom Vondruska; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations On 1/9/02 1:48 PM, Cadwell, Marvin L (cadwelml@bp.com) wrote: > But of course after Cincinnati, our board of directors decided to hold the > convention in ... Harrisburg, and signed once again a multi-year contract > with the Penn Harris. > Other than the fact that I am only 15 minutes away from Camp Hill... I think in looking at the "big picture" Harrisburg is a very good location due to several factors, one of which being access to transportation. It is readily accessible by auto, train, and air. I believe that 50% of the Society lives with 90 minutes or so of Philadelphia. So why aren't the meetings in Philly? I'd be willing to bet that if you calculate the AVERAGE travel time for all members attending that Harrisburg is a good average. You have 1/2 of the attendees travelling from the Philly area (<120 minutes) and the rest traveling from all over. I understand and do not disagree with those that cry foul about the repeat appearances in Harrisburg and slighting of other area. In a more perfect situation, I would like to see Harrisburg EVERY OTHER YEAR and alternate with a site to the east and a site to the west. You also need to remember that volunteers are needed to manage every meeting's locale. It took a bit of wrangling to work out the situation for Cincinnati in 2004. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 14:06:23 -0600 Maybe with a little advertizing those vendors in Cincinnati who do not come east con be enticed to the vendor room at the convention. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 1:27 PM To: Norm Bell; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations On 1/9/02 2:14 PM, Norm Bell (nbell@repco.com) wrote: > The test will be attendance in Cincinatti as to viability. When an informal poll was taken at the 2001 convention about the viability of Cincinnati, a stunning 90% or so indicated they would go! However, a very high number of vendors indicated they would attend but perhaps not as a vendor! > My opinion on > eastern support is that is the area that the PRR was dominant with little or > know competition. I don't think the western lines had the same position. > Therefore there are more choices for interest. Maybe if the PRR had > survived it would be the NS or CSX of today. We'll never know. A similar thing to consider is that, while "Lines East" had its share of branch lines, the PRR was predominantly a four-track mainline from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh. Once west of Pittsburgh, everything scattered. You can foresee one "Lines West" fan wanting a meeting on one two track main and being offended if the meeting were held on the "other" two track main line, etc. Just a thought. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 15:13:17 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations From: Jerry Britton On 1/9/02 2:56 PM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: > I'm not terribly crazy about the ongoing Harrisburg conventions either, but > what can ya say? That area does have some real positives... > BUT, on the other side of the coin... there's not a huge amount > of modeling in the area for layout tours; it's still a This is an ever-changing situation. Truth is, there are a ton of modelers in the area. We just need to find them. Many are not PRR, so we wouldn't know about them. Some are PRR, but their owners aren't in the Society. We need to get them to find the Society, or we need to find them! In 2000, Nick Kulp opened up his Lebanon Valley Branch. It was down for renovations (signaling) in 2001. I think he'll be available again. In 2001, Jim Clay opened up his Cumberland Valley Branch. It was mostly benchwork at the time, but I think you'll start seeing his layout regularly. Though he won't be ready this year, a non-member, Jeff Warner has expressed an interest in opening up. He models the Northern Central Branch with some WM and Reading. I know of another Northern Central modeler, whom I won't name, that I think could be coerced into opening. And my own Eastern Region will be openable when the convention returns to Camp Hill in 2005. So, the layouts are there, we just need to find them, schedule them, and alternate them so as to not become stale. Guess I'm up to 6 cents today! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 15:24:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations From: Jerry Britton I've only been a member of the Society for a few years. Has the convention every been in Baltimore or Washington, D.C.? While not "Lines West", both were vital locations on the PRR system. Both would also hold possibilities for "disinterested spousal tours" (is that politically correct enough? ). Baltimore, especially, would interest me. It has the auto, train, and air accessibility. It has other sites and excellent food. Baltimore Penn Station is still there! The B&O museum is nearby (did I hear a grrrr?). Heck, maybe we could do a PRRT&HS night at a Baltimore Orioles game on Wednesday, or Thursday afternoon, before the meeting agenda starts? Baltimore has real possibilities that should not be overlooked. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 14:29:09 -0600 The convention was held in Wilmington and Baltimore. I found both to be far more interesting than the last few years in Harrisburg. Prior to those conventions, I had only visited Wilmington once before in my life and it was my first time for Baltimore. Both cities have a lot to offer for the PRR enthusiast. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 2:25 PM To: Cadwell, Marvin L; Tom Vondruska; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations I've only been a member of the Society for a few years. Has the convention every been in Baltimore or Washington, D.C.? While not "Lines West", both were vital locations on the PRR system. Both would also hold possibilities for "disinterested spousal tours" (is that politically correct enough? ). Baltimore, especially, would interest me. It has the auto, train, and air accessibility. It has other sites and excellent food. Baltimore Penn Station is still there! The B&O museum is nearby (did I hear a grrrr?). Heck, maybe we could do a PRRT&HS night at a Baltimore Orioles game on Wednesday, or Thursday afternoon, before the meeting agenda starts? Baltimore has real possibilities that should not be overlooked. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 15:46:05 -0500 Jerry, A couple of years before you became a member we had a meetings in both Baltimore (Hunt Valley Marriott what a great hotel!) and Wilmington. The Wilmington one was sponsored by Phila Chapter and included a trip to the Wilmington Shops. The Baltimore one was run I believe by Ivan Franz or the North Central Chapter. It included the Baltimore Light Rail shops. I asked Ivan a couple of years ago if we would ever go back to Balto. and he said that Maryland charged the society some sort of registration tax for every attendee! He felt that that soured the society on Maryland. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 3:25 PM To: Cadwell, Marvin L; Tom Vondruska; PRR-Talk LIST Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations I've only been a member of the Society for a few years. Has the convention every been in Baltimore or Washington, D.C.? While not "Lines West", both were vital locations on the PRR system. Both would also hold possibilities for "disinterested spousal tours" (is that politically correct enough? ). Baltimore, especially, would interest me. It has the auto, train, and air accessibility. It has other sites and excellent food. Baltimore Penn Station is still there! The B&O museum is nearby (did I hear a grrrr?). Heck, maybe we could do a PRRT&HS night at a Baltimore Orioles game on Wednesday, or Thursday afternoon, before the meeting agenda starts? Baltimore has real possibilities that should not be overlooked. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 15:56:54 -0500 Addenda to my last post: We also went to PRR Union Station for a tour. There were some layout tours. A group of us found a great place to watch trains Perryville. Side note to Jerry: If you've never been there you have to go when it's warmer you live too close to miss it. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 16:16:57 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations Not to mention (for the model RRers) M.B. Klein ! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > I've only been a member of the Society for a few years. Has the convention > every been in Baltimore or Washington, D.C.? > > While not "Lines West", both were vital locations on the PRR system. Both > would also hold possibilities for "disinterested spousal tours" (is that > politically correct enough? ). > > Baltimore, especially, would interest me. It has the auto, train, and air > accessibility. It has other sites and excellent food. Baltimore Penn Station > is still there! The B&O museum is nearby (did I hear a grrrr?). > > Heck, maybe we could do a PRRT&HS night at a Baltimore Orioles game on > Wednesday, or Thursday afternoon, before the meeting agenda starts? > > Baltimore has real possibilities that should not be overlooked. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 18:35:02 EST Subject: [PRR] Porkopolis.... 2004 In a message dated 1/9/02 1:03:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << And a LOUD complaint was that the PRRT&HS annual meetings were never west of Pittsburgh...now 2004 is scheduled in Cincinnati! >> I've lived in Ohio and been a Pennsy fan all my life (58 years) and never have had any reason to go to "Porkopolis" - :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 18:38:44 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] CRESTLINE is boring In a message dated 1/9/02 1:14:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, prrlineswest@yahoo.com writes: << I don't mean to belittle the special place Crestline has in some of your memories but when you live out in Lines West Land, there's lot more opportunities of railroad archaeology than scoping out or preserving some brick ruins just west of East Jesus >> CRESTLINE is not "the middle of nowhere" - ADA is ! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 19:10:46 -0500 At the risk of having someone misinterpret my comments on this subject, like some people tend to do, let me offer some comments on the comments. 1. Re comment: But of course after Cincinnati, our board of directors decided to hold the convention in ... Harrisburg, and signed once again a multi-year contract with the Penn Harris. --------------- There are several circumstances that lead to this decision. a. The meeting should be within PRR territory. Camp Hill is such a location. b. It would be most desirable to have the National or a Chapter in the meeting area host the annual meeting. We only have a few organizations that can handle the logistics. The National, Philadelphia Chapter, Northern Central Chapter, Middle Division Chapter, Pittsburgh Chapter, Grand Rapids Chapter and the Cincinnati Group. If I left some group out my apologies. This sort of limits where we go. With the exception of the Cincinnati Group most of the Chapters are central to Camp Hill. I don't know if you all realize it or not but some of these groups only have a few members. c. Getting a hotel with adequate meeting facilities at somewhat reasonable room and food rates is also a challenge. The PHL Chapter is faced with this conundrum at the present time. Pittsburgh was faced with it in 1996. To quote Bob Johnson "I know it wasn't easy to find an affordable place in the Pittsburgh area." Camp Hill has very adequate meeting facilities and somewhat reasonable rates. d. The Radisson Penn-Harris likes our organization and actually solicited our return in 2005 and 2006. BTW I am sort of hoping that the NC Chapter would run 2005 and the National 2006. But these are my thoughts and not those of the BoD. e. Although I have not done a demographic analysis Camp Hill appears to be somewhat central to the bulk of membership, making it easier to get to. ================ 2. Re comment: I understand and do not disagree with those that cry foul about the repeat appearances in Harrisburg and slighting of other area. In a more perfect situation, I would like to see Harrisburg EVERY OTHER YEAR and alternate with a site to the east and a site to the west. --------------- If there is another group with a "hot new" location don't sit in the background grousing about what's going on - make a proposal to the BoD. If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. ================ Re comment: The test will be attendance in Cincinnati as to viability. ---------------- Absolutely right on. ================ Re comment: How about all the PRRT&HS members living all over the country?..... The one time I did get up there, was to drive. And that way, I get to do all sorts of other crazy things along the way. Like visit Altoona, the EBT, and all those other goodies! ---------------- This apparently started out as a criticism, but ended up showing some of the benefits of visiting Pennsylvania and PRR territory. ================ Re comment: One thing that I really miss from past conventions is tours! The tours of local railroad or industry facilities were always one of the more looked forward to parts of the conventions... It's a shame that the decision seems to have been made to eliminate these from the convention agendas... ----------------- Yes, I miss them too. One of the best annual meetings I went to was the recent Pittsburgh one, tours to a steel mill, coke plant and of course the PRR all around Pittsburgh - it was just excellent. First of all to say "that the decision seems to have been made to eliminate these from the convention agendas" is totally false. There has never been such a decision made. Meeting agendas are up to the host unit. We had a steel tour to PST arranged at one recent meeting and it was cancelled at the last minute, we had a rail trip scheduled at the Altoona meeting which was called off. We are currently trying to schedule a tour of PST again for this May. My industrial tour man, John Teichmoeller is attempting to set this up. No word yet. We are hoping to have possibly two tours in Philadelphia in 2003. We already have 12 speakers for 2003. BTW any facility tours should be somewhat germane to the meeting. There are lots of industries to go to, but are they PRR related? =================== Re comment: I realize the old and valid argument that most other areas don't have the organizational skills and experience as readily available, but this comes across as a bit of a self-fulfilling prophesy. Rather like the quarterback who never gets played and then is benched because he's inexperienced. ------------------- Like I said before, if you have any pregnant ideas don't lurk in the shadows, come forth with a proposal. Be part of the solution, not the problem. The BoD doesn't sit in a smoke filled back room and decide - well where can we go for the next meeting that will piss everybody off. We only have so much creativity and so many proposals - lets start letting your individual creative juices flow and come up with something. Everybody gripped about no modeling articles in "The Keystone," yet we really haven't received any yet. Now many are venting their spleen about Camp Hill - do something about it man! =================== Re Comment: Indy? Fort Wayne? Buffalo maybe? ------------------- They sound good to me and I'm sure the rest of the BoD would agree. How about Canton, Youngstown, Wilmington, Baltimore, Cleveland, Toledo, Columbus, Grand Rapids, etc., etc. Any takers? We've done Lancaster and Altoona in the not to distant past and their facilities were not that good. =================== Re comment: It is literally amazing how they manage to obtain hosts and speakers (most of whom by the way are not members of the society) to share their knowledge of the railroad and its operation within their home areas. As time passes, those who actually worked for the PRR will no longer be here and a major portion of that history will be lost. ------------------- Putting the program together is relatively easy, at least for me, we have 16 programs for 2002 and already 12 programs for 2003 with a possibility of 2 tours. Its getting responsible people to do the "dog" work of finding adequate facilities at a reasonable rate and all of the administrative ka ka associated with it. ================== Re comment: So, the layouts are there, we just need to find them, schedule them, and alternate them so as to not become stale. ------------------ Yes, again somebody locally has to do the dog work. ================== Al Member BoD Program Coordinator for 2002 and 2003 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 19:33:47 EST Subject: [PRR] The PRR Mainline ends in Pittsburgh! Growing up, we felt that the main line did end in Pittsburgh (PFtW&C) Horseshoe curve might have been on the moon - and the electrics on the calendars, looked suspiciously European to us Ohio boys....... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 19:37:24 -0500 From: James Stob Subject: Re: [PRR] CRESTLINE is boring To VVA249, I would hope that in the future you will be a little more sensitive to the feelings of those who are wounded by your careless use of the name of Jesus. Thanks, Jim Stob VVA249@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 1/9/02 1:14:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, > prrlineswest@yahoo.com writes: > > << I don't mean to belittle the special place Crestline has in some of your > memories but when you live out in Lines West Land, there's lot more > opportunities of railroad archaeology than scoping out or preserving > some brick ruins just west of East Jesus >> > > CRESTLINE is not "the middle of nowhere" - ADA is ! > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] SW conversion: Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 19:43:03 -0500 I know I'm way late but, Penn Central Bi-Annual by Robert Reid Cos Wayne Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Small Business IT Services. Lancaster & Atlantic Rail Road NMRA, MER, Susqhehanna Div 11 http://www.wsbcos.com/trainsmenu.htm at the west end of the PRR Electrified zone ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] P5, P5a Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 20:51:55 -0500 Dear friends: The P5(a) had aluminum handrails on each end. Were the vertical stanchions on the handrail also aluminum in the natural color, or were they painted? Thanks for the info. Lew Matt Synergistic Solutions: Alternative Septic and Energy Systems Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] lettering Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 21:14:16 -0500 Bruce and List, Here's what I have on the interior colors of the R50B cars: Tracing D-93777 - R50B Arrangement of Lettering: As built 1-29 to 4-29 - Paint colors not shown. 5-7-1929 - View showing initials and car number stencilled inside of ice doors has been added. No indication of color used. 4-20-1931 - Specifications for interior & exterior painting have been added. Side walls, bulkheads and ceiling to be painted Aluminum. No mention of floor or interior lettering. Tracings C-413746 and C-412747 - Painting, Lettering & Numbering Arrangement, Sheets 1 and 2 [Futura]: 4-12-1938 - Side walls, bulkhead and ceiling painted Aluminum. Floor painted Red. Still no mention of interior lettering color. Tracing C- 429417 - Painting, Lettering & Numbering Arrangement, Sheet 1 [Block]: 9-29-1943 - Sidewalls and bulkheads Fawn. Ceiling White. Floor Red. Still no mention of interior lettering color. 8-24-1955 - Sidewalls and bulkheads changed from Fawn to Aluminum. Ceiling changed from White to Aluminum. To "conform with Instructions for Painting Passenger Cars issued Aug. 21, 1953. [Note that it took two years to put the change on the tracing. This shows that the primary reference was really the written Instructions for Painting, not the tracings.] PRR Paint Specifications, March 23, 1953: For refrigerator cars, the interior sides, ends and ceilings when not galvanized get Aluminum Paint, Ref. 47-2313. Floors receive Floor Enamel, PRR Shade, Ref. 47-2334. It is of interest to note that this same floor enamel was also used on the floors of cabin cars, baggage cars, express cars, horse express cars, passenger carrying cars when red is specified (alternate was green), Magnesite Monolithic floors in postal cars (wooden floors got floor varnish), diesel-electric locomotives, and electric locomotives. The color specification shows Color Schedule Number 9 - Floor Red and states "color chips for the color schedule numbers will be furnished upon request." [If anybody has seen red floors on any of this equipment in PRR times, perhaps they can describe the color.] The earlier Fawn and White colors were still in use on Horse Express Cars. Interior sides and ends Fawn Semi-Gloss Enamel, Ref. 47-2217, Color Schedule Number 11. Headlining to be White Headlining Enamel, Ref. 47-3195, Color Schedule Number 5. PRR Paint Specifications, August 1, 1953: These specs give the same information as shown above for the March 23, 1953 issue. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." To: Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 3:47 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] lettering > GREAT info! In looking over the PRRT&HS book, the paint diagram there > specifies "aluminum" paint for walls and "red" for floors of R50, R60, > baggage and RPO cars. Any ideas as to the colors of such esoterica as the > interior of the R50B, Ice compartments, hatches etc. over the years... > > Also, what the heck is "red"? (Aluminum I can do!) > > Happy Rails > Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BlockTruck@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 00:36:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Color Guide 3 --part1_6f.20a70f5b.296e8278_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/8/02 5:20:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > * shot of a clean MP54T (I didn't know they ever washed them!) Virtually every day, my friend. Monday through Friday if it wasn't below freezing. The car washer was under (next to) the High Line, north of the Pullman Service Building. --part1_6f.20a70f5b.296e8278_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/8/02 5:20:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

* shot of a clean MP54T (I didn't know they ever washed them!)
Virtually every day, my friend.  Monday through Friday if it wasn't below freezing.  The car washer was under (next to) the High Line, north of the Pullman Service Building. --part1_6f.20a70f5b.296e8278_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 01:13:35 EST Subject: [PRR] One N, a double N, and a single T - that's Cincinnati It's uniquely appropriate to see the debate on this list about going to Cincinnati. Some of you may not realize that PRR-Talk has actually had a great deal to do with this development. I was shocked but pleased to learn that PRRT&HS will meet in Cincinnati in 2004. I joined the Society very early (my membership number is 384, but then I joined when I was 2 ). Ever since I joined, I've been solemnly assured that the Society would not meet west of Pittsburgh until there was a hard freeze in Hades. For all those years, I've accepted this as one of those immutable facts about the Society. However, there were several positive things about this situation - I found the Society to be a cohesive group of fans/friends most of whom were conveniently clustered within driving distance of the Strasburg/Lancaster/Camp Hill venues of many past conventions. Visiting this amazing group yearly, via car, train, vanpool, or even air was a great way to renew friendships. And attendance stayed hefty, unlike some other interest groups I know whose conventions have wasted away to a puny shadow. Whatever Division claimed your allegiance, it's basically very rewarding to meet with other Pennsy fans. Of course, out here in the howling wilderness of Lines West, you were grateful to even know where another Pennsy fan lived. I got used to driving 130 miles from Louisville up to Cincinnati to meet with other PRR fanatics. We certainly never worried about putting on a convention. When PRR-Talk came along, and I could correspond with other Pennsy fans every day, it was heavenly. Not only was it fun, but it was possible to actually conduct research for articles by trying ideas and "facts" out on each other. As we pooled information, we had the opportunity to grow our knowledge of the whole system, not just the little corner where we lived. An unexpected ability of email was to link together that small number of PRR Lines West fans, and soon we were writing messages about Logansport or the Sandusky Branch. And we laughed, because we were just waiting for some Lines East guy to chime in with "what's all this Lines West stuff?" (and he did). Finally, Tom Vondruska even managed to get a Lines West Fan Fest organized (Xenia, April 1999) in a year when the PRRT&HS didn't meet in May. It was strange to walk into that armory in Ohio and find it full of Pennsy fans - it was a revelation to find out there really were that many Lines Westerners. What we could see is that these folks are just as passionate about the Pennsy as anyone. Now the Society's annual is headed for Cincinnati in 2004. As one PRR-Talker has aptly put it, the PRR wasn't even the leading railroad there. He's right, but my next question is, so what? I consider the following facts to be more important: 1. Wherever Pennsy fans get together, it's great. The prospect that a few of them won't travel to Cincinnati is irrelevant - the ones who come will have a great time. 2. Cincy is a great railroad town. The Cincinnati Union Terminal is a great historical landmark, a good railroad museum, and a superb overlook from which you can still watch trains in the yards of the Mill Creek valley. Nearby groups are active in running rail trips, restoring historical equipment (how about a 10-5 Cascade car?) and building PRR-themed model railroads. In fact, in miniature you can tour West Chester, the Monongahela Div, or Weirton West Virginia. 3. Cincinnati is a great nonrailroad town - your wives and families will enjoy topnotch attractions like the Newport Aquarium, the Science Museum, Cincinnati Reds baseball, and nearby Kings Island amusement park. Ohio's number one tourist attraction, the US Air Force Museum, is about an hour away. And German foods and specialty beers are abundant. 4. The number of PRR fans in a place isn't an accurate determiner of the desirability of the convention. Fortunately, Cincinnati is the center of gravity of three dozen or more PRR fans who are used to working together on model and prototype projects and articles. This group has put on a goodly number of their Pennsy exhibits and presentations at past Society annuals, and attends every year in a caravan of vans. These folks do quality work, and we can confidently expect them to stage a good convention. 5. With over two years to go, solid planning and staffing for the convention is underway. Hotel negotiations are in progress, and the group is reaching out to secure programs that will repay your efforts to get here. Inevitably, a few of our customary vendors may not be there, but in their place will be others that can't normally travel east. 6. There are several options available for fan trips in the area, and time to work the intricacies out. Thinking large, nobody has yet counted out the possibility of running a trainload special from Philadelphia to Cincinnati, perhaps powered by a pair of tuscan-painted E's… is it possible we could have a capacity problem? I will agree with any and all doubters that the Society is venturing into unknown territory (figuratively and literally). We're all taking a risk. But let me remind you that the Pennsy prospered and grew by taking risks while betting on the performance of its best people - and the folks involved here are ones to bet your money on. I'm confidently predicting that those who come will have fun, and those who don't will live to regret their decision. Probably the toughest job is to teach all of you to ask (in your best mock German accent) "Vas You Efer in Zinzinnati?" Rick Tipton Pennsy fan, Lines West style Louisville KY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 02:41:53 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Alco From: "M. E Allen" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ----__JNP_000_3de0.74b2.0e53 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bruce, et alia I hate to rain on your parade. Telling somebody who has made his living as an intelligence analyst to look carefully at a photograph is not always a good idea. There seems to be too much lettering on the hood, it is not even [small depressed area in the center which could be consistent with the word 'and' in 'DELAWARE and HUDSON] and there is what appears to be a silver spark arrester. Still a great picture. Mike Allen ----__JNP_000_3de0.74b2.0e53 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bruce, et alia
 
I hate to rain on your parade. Telling somebody who has made his = living as=20 an intelligence analyst to look carefully at a photograph is not = always=20 a good idea. There seems to be too much lettering on the hood, it is not = even=20 [small depressed area in the center which could be consistent with the= =20 word  'and' in 'DELAWARE and HUDSON] and there is what appears to be=20 a silver spark arrester. Still a great picture.
 
Mike Allen
----__JNP_000_3de0.74b2.0e53-- ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 07:06:52 -0500 From: "Michael J. Albanese" Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations Al Buchan wrote: > >We've done Lancaster and Altoona in the not to distant past and their >facilities were not that good. > Just a shameless plug: Altoona now has a brand new (2001) convention center, including a Courtyard by Marriott right next door. Mike (Altoona) == Links: http://www.amcvb.com/convention/index.asp http://courtyard.com/dpp/PropertyPage.asp?MarshaCode=AOOCY&checked=True&Marriott_BD={843D88E4-16F3-4E78-8E70-7F3EC4A7115D} ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 07:28:08 EST Subject: [PRR] English units anyone? Or metric? In a message dated 1/9/02 1:54:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cookbook available for download From: "Patrick Grace" Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 18:11:09 -0000 Lew, If you are going to test the cookbook, what about also adding metric measures, I do know that American Imperial and British Imperial measures are not the same... Patrick Grace >> American Imperial -- I think you get credit for creating an interesting new set of measurements. Got to agree, though, it's confusing. I was always taught that the measures we US-type-Americans used were called English units. Schoolteachers taught us how to convert from these "English" units to metric. Then I found out some of our "English" units weren't the same as Imperial (British) measures. In fact, I'm still not sure if all of Canada's Imperial measures are the same as Britain's. Or what this has to do with TV's or videotapes . On second thought, how about a PRR cookbook entirely in metric? Lessee, this cake takes 454 milligrams of flour, 3.8 liters of water... Rick, up way too late. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 07:28:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Renumbering under equipment trusts -- questions for a In a message dated 1/9/02 9:24:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: << Rick and list: I do recall a line of dead J's lined up at Columbus, OH, that were lined up by Trust Plate Date - they were sent to scrap when the trust expired. Verified this by looking at the trust plates on the cabs. Gregg Mahlkov >> Wow - what year was that? Rick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 08:03:53 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Society Meeting Locations From: Jerry Britton On 1/10/02 7:06 AM, Michael J. Albanese (mjalbanese@charter.net) wrote: > Al Buchan wrote: > >> >> We've done Lancaster and Altoona in the not to distant past and their >> facilities were not that good. >> > Just a shameless plug: Altoona now has a brand new (2001) convention > center, > including a Courtyard by Marriott right next door. > A good thing to know...Altoona ALWAYS works! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:53:19 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Layout Tours Needed for 2002 PRRT&HS Annual Meeting From: Jerry Britton The 2002 annual meeting of the PRRT&HS will be held in Camp Hill (Harrisburg), PA, from Thursday, May 2 through Sunday, May 5. Layout tours are typically scheduled for the evening of Friday, May 3 and the afternoon of Sunday, May 5. My assistance has been solicited with arranging for tours, as I have the past two years. I am very much seeking previously unvisited layouts within 20 miles or so of Camp Hill. If you have a layout with a PRR flavor and are in this range and would be willing to open, we would very much appreciate it. I think we could further extend the range for Sunday-only for some people to catch on their way out of town, so that is a possibility also. Please contact me off-list if you can help. I need a description of the railroad (paragraph or so) and which times (or both) you can be open. NICK KULP and JIM CLAY: Would you be interested in opening again? Thank you! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:08:40 EST Subject: [PRR] WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING MILLIMETERS... In a message dated 1/10/02 9:09:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org writes: << The U.S. as a whole has, believe it or not, never made any moves to make the English system official. This is reflected, as well, in the fact that the NIST, National Institute of Standards and Technology, the former NBS, National Bureau of Standards, calls the English system thus: "the U.S. Customary System". I.e., it is simply customary, by custom, that we use it. In fact, NIST/NBS now defines all English measurements in terms of the analogous metric measure. >> It's a bit awkward to refer to the "English" system - since the Brits no longer use it! In Industrial terms it's "USS" (United States Standard) (ASME - ASTM) or commonly the "Fractional" (now using decimals for measurements under an inch) A personal "Rant" - The decimal inch system (using a micrometer) solved most of the problems of the "Inch" system, and managed to win WW2 for us. At the end of the war, almost the entire Industrialized Metric world was in ruins. When we sent them bushel baskets full of dollars we should have said "This is a dollar bill - lt's 6" long LEARN THAT" Instead, the always affable "nice guys" financed the rebuilding of the countries we defeated with brand new METRIC machines - and put ourselves at an even further disadvantage. Real men don't trust anything invented by the French! I'll bet that the Mighty PRR very rarely, if ever, used any millimeters, notice I didn't say never. Getting back to topic, does anyone know of anything Pennsy specified or identified in Metric terms? Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING MILLIMETERS... Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 09:22:11 -0600 The French deGlehn engine would have almost certainly been metric as well as other early imported engines. As a carrier that took goods to many seaports I would expect as now much of the cargo had metric measurements. There were probably metric conversion charts for shipping agents and car inspectors to make sure things would fit ( particularly in box cars). It's a shame we are so scared of the metric system. We have one of the few metric monetary systems that everybody in the world understands but we are afraid of it when it comes to other uses. If you understand the relationship of pennies to dimes to dollars you basically understand the metric system. Norm Bell ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 9:08 AM Subject: [PRR] WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING MILLIMETERS... > In a message dated 1/10/02 9:09:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org > writes: > > << The U.S. as a whole has, believe it or not, never made any moves > to make the English system official. This is reflected, as well, in the fact > that the NIST, National Institute of Standards and Technology, the former > NBS, National Bureau of Standards, calls the English system thus: "the U.S. > Customary System". I.e., it is simply customary, by custom, that we use it. > In fact, NIST/NBS now defines all English measurements in terms of the > analogous metric measure. >> > > It's a bit awkward to refer to the "English" system - since the Brits no > longer use it! > In Industrial terms it's "USS" (United States Standard) (ASME - ASTM) or > commonly the "Fractional" (now using decimals for measurements under an inch) > > A personal "Rant" - The decimal inch system (using a micrometer) solved > most of the problems of the "Inch" system, and managed to win WW2 for us. > At the end of the war, almost the entire Industrialized Metric world was > in ruins. When we sent them bushel baskets full of dollars we should have > said "This is a dollar bill - lt's 6" long LEARN THAT" > Instead, the always affable "nice guys" financed the rebuilding of the > countries we defeated with brand new METRIC machines - and put ourselves at > an even further disadvantage. > > Real men don't trust anything invented by the French! > > I'll bet that the Mighty PRR very rarely, if ever, used any millimeters, > notice I didn't say never. > Getting back to topic, does anyone know of anything Pennsy specified or > identified in Metric terms? > > Dick Ross > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:30:21 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING MILLIMETERS... VVA249@aol.com wrote: > > Real men don't trust anything invented by the French! The PRR was long gone in the mid-1970s when the first iteration of the Tres Grande Vitesse passenger-train fleet went into service, certainly--like the PRR electrification--one of the most spectacularly successful railroad projects of all time. But turning back the calendar, one wonders what PRR execs must have thought in 1955 when the French, having rebuilt their war-ravaged railroads with American money, tested two electric locomotives at somewhere near 205 mph. That's 205, not 105. And it's mph, not kph. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAJK4@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:02:10 EST Subject: [PRR] M1 items... --part1_8b.11fd79f2.296f1502_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To the list... I apologize for my absence over the last week or two that this discussion has been ongoing. My family has had a few emergencies over this time and I have not been able to reply to any of the topics that have been brought up. What follows is to the best of my knowledge about possible future projects at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania and the M1. After the M1 receives cosmetic restoration (including removal of the asbestos) she will be placed inside of the building (as far as I am aware, but things can change). This project may not begin for another year or two as there are a few other projects that are lined up ahead of the M1. The M1 was repainted a year or two ago, but it was not meant to be a permanent fix to the problem. As far as a roundhouse is concerned, it may be another ten years or so until enough money can be raised for construction. The way the tracks were realigned in the yard will assist in equipment being moved around the yard without the presence of sharp curves and old ties. Much of the rail being used is the same rail that was used with the previous track design. As far as putting the M1 into the roundhouse, as long as it's pushed into the roundhouse straight across the turntable, it should be able to be under cover. As far as building another addition onto the rolling stock hall, the only feasible place to build would be adding onto the existing building, on the end where the parking lot exists. The farmer behind the museum has not been willing to cooperate with the museum acquiring more land from him, and it doesn't look like that will change any time in the future. Going down grade behind the museum will be tricky as everyone knows. If the addition is to be built, I believe it will be some years following the construction of the roundhouse. The museum is working on more interpretive exhibits in the museum itself, but this too will take time. The lobby is going to be redesigned this winter and the education center is in operation (although on a limited schedule over the winter) which all lead to better interpretative exhibits. I do believe that both the museum in Strasburg and Altoona complement each other. The museum now has ownership of Rivets, and whenever possible, it will be cosmetically restored, and put under cover. The addition of the roundhouse will free up space inside the rolling stock hall for Rivets to come in from the elements. As far as importing the round house from Crestline, that would be a massive undertaking. I believe one gentleman said that as far as the structure itself is concerned, it is in relatively good shape. I would hate to see something happen to it in transit. The other "problem" with bringing the roundhouse to Strasburg is that it was not a structure that was built or existed in the state of Pennsylvania. Those two items are major requirements for acceptance into the museum's collection. It is ashame that Ohio is not doing something to atleast begin preservation of this site. I hope I did not hit too many nerves with this email, but I wanted to reply and let everyone know what I know about the happenings at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. Walt --part1_8b.11fd79f2.296f1502_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To the list...
      I apologize for my absence over the last week or two that this discussion has been ongoing.  My family has had a few emergencies over this time and I have not been able to reply to any of the topics that have been brought up.  What follows is to the best of my knowledge about possible future projects at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania and the M1.
      
      After the M1 receives cosmetic restoration (including removal of the asbestos) she will be placed inside of the building (as far as I am aware, but things can change).  This project may not begin for another year or two as there are a few other projects that are lined up ahead of the M1.  The M1 was repainted a year or two ago, but it was not meant to be a permanent fix to the problem.
      As far as a roundhouse is concerned, it may be another ten years or so until enough money can be raised for construction.  The way the tracks were realigned in the yard will assist in equipment being moved around the yard without the presence of sharp curves and old ties.  Much of the rail being used is the same rail that was used with the previous track design.  As far as putting the M1 into the roundhouse, as long as it's pushed into the roundhouse straight across the turntable, it should be able to be under cover.
      As far as building another addition onto the rolling stock hall, the only feasible place to build would be adding onto the existing building, on the end where the parking lot exists.  The farmer behind the museum has not been willing to cooperate with the museum acquiring more land from him, and it doesn't look like that will change any time in the future.  Going down grade behind the museum will be tricky as everyone knows.  If the addition is to be built, I believe it will be some years following the construction of the roundhouse.
      The museum is working on more interpretive exhibits in the museum itself, but this too will take time.  The lobby is going to be redesigned this winter and the education center is in operation (although on a limited schedule over the winter) which all lead to better interpretative exhibits.  I do believe that both the museum in Strasburg and Altoona complement each other.
      The museum now has ownership of Rivets, and whenever possible, it will be cosmetically restored, and put under cover.  The addition of the roundhouse will free up space inside the rolling stock hall for Rivets to come in from the elements.
      As far as importing the round house from Crestline, that would be a massive undertaking.  I believe one gentleman said that as far as the structure itself is concerned, it is in relatively good shape.  I would hate to see something happen to it in transit.  The other "problem" with bringing the roundhouse to Strasburg is that it was not a structure that was built or existed in the state of Pennsylvania.  Those two items are major requirements for acceptance into the museum's collection.  It is ashame that Ohio is not doing something to atleast begin preservation of this site.
      I hope I did not hit too many nerves with this email, but I wanted to reply and let everyone know what I know about the happenings at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania.


Walt --part1_8b.11fd79f2.296f1502_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAJK4@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:17:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Steep Grades --part1_79.211f9fe8.296f188e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To the list, As you already know I have been busy with some family emergencies and have not had much time to get online. The discussion of the steep grade in Lancaster I have not been able confirm with the volunteer that has told me about it. Next week I will hopefully be able to see him again so I can clear up exactly what he is talking about and where it is exactly. I apologize for any confusion I may have already caused for everyone. Talk to you all next week. Walt --part1_79.211f9fe8.296f188e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To the list,
      As you already know I have been busy with some family emergencies and have not had much time to get online.  The discussion of the steep grade in Lancaster I have not been able confirm with the volunteer that has told me about it.  Next week I will hopefully be able to see him again so I can clear up exactly what he is talking about and where it is exactly.  I apologize for any confusion I may have already caused for everyone.  Talk to you all next week.


Walt --part1_79.211f9fe8.296f188e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] M1 items... Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:39:49 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C199C3.211B6340 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The roundhouse at Crestline would not be appropriate for the Strasburg = site in any way. It is a massive structure with stalls and a turntable = designed to turn T1's, Q2's and the S1. By itself, if I remember = correctly from my visit several years ago, it is bigger than the entire = Strasburg site of the RR museum. The land could be had through eminent = domain but a smaller roundhouse based on a smaller turntable is probably = in order=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: WAJK4@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 10:02 AM Subject: [PRR] M1 items... To the list...=20 I apologize for my absence over the last week or two that this = discussion has been ongoing. My family has had a few emergencies over = this time and I have not been able to reply to any of the topics that = have been brought up. What follows is to the best of my knowledge about = possible future projects at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania and the = M1.=20 =20 After the M1 receives cosmetic restoration (including removal of = the asbestos) she will be placed inside of the building (as far as I am = aware, but things can change). This project may not begin for another = year or two as there are a few other projects that are lined up ahead of = the M1. The M1 was repainted a year or two ago, but it was not meant to = be a permanent fix to the problem.=20 As far as a roundhouse is concerned, it may be another ten years = or so until enough money can be raised for construction. The way the = tracks were realigned in the yard will assist in equipment being moved = around the yard without the presence of sharp curves and old ties. Much = of the rail being used is the same rail that was used with the previous = track design. As far as putting the M1 into the roundhouse, as long as = it's pushed into the roundhouse straight across the turntable, it should = be able to be under cover.=20 As far as building another addition onto the rolling stock hall, = the only feasible place to build would be adding onto the existing = building, on the end where the parking lot exists. The farmer behind = the museum has not been willing to cooperate with the museum acquiring = more land from him, and it doesn't look like that will change any time = in the future. Going down grade behind the museum will be tricky as = everyone knows. If the addition is to be built, I believe it will be = some years following the construction of the roundhouse.=20 The museum is working on more interpretive exhibits in the = museum itself, but this too will take time. The lobby is going to be = redesigned this winter and the education center is in operation = (although on a limited schedule over the winter) which all lead to = better interpretative exhibits. I do believe that both the museum in = Strasburg and Altoona complement each other.=20 The museum now has ownership of Rivets, and whenever possible, = it will be cosmetically restored, and put under cover. The addition of = the roundhouse will free up space inside the rolling stock hall for = Rivets to come in from the elements.=20 As far as importing the round house from Crestline, that would = be a massive undertaking. I believe one gentleman said that as far as = the structure itself is concerned, it is in relatively good shape. I = would hate to see something happen to it in transit. The other = "problem" with bringing the roundhouse to Strasburg is that it was not a = structure that was built or existed in the state of Pennsylvania. Those = two items are major requirements for acceptance into the museum's = collection. It is ashame that Ohio is not doing something to atleast = begin preservation of this site.=20 I hope I did not hit too many nerves with this email, but I = wanted to reply and let everyone know what I know about the happenings = at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania.=20 Walt=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C199C3.211B6340 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The roundhouse at Crestline would not = be=20 appropriate for the Strasburg site in any way.  It is a massive = structure=20 with stalls and a turntable designed to turn T1's, Q2's and the = S1.  By=20 itself, if I remember correctly from my visit several years ago, it is = bigger=20 than the entire Strasburg site of the RR museum.  The land could be = had=20 through eminent domain but a smaller roundhouse based on a smaller = turntable is=20 probably in order 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 WAJK4@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, January 10, = 2002 10:02=20 AM
Subject: [PRR] M1 = items...

To the = list...=20
      I apologize for my absence = over the=20 last week or two that this discussion has been ongoing.  My = family has=20 had a few emergencies over this time and I have not been able to reply = to any=20 of the topics that have been brought up.  What follows is to the = best of=20 my knowledge about possible future projects at the Railroad Museum of=20 Pennsylvania and the M1.
      =20
      After the M1 receives cosmetic = restoration (including removal of the asbestos) she will be placed = inside of=20 the building (as far as I am aware, but things can change).  This = project=20 may not begin for another year or two as there are a few other = projects that=20 are lined up ahead of the M1.  The M1 was repainted a year or two = ago,=20 but it was not meant to be a permanent fix to the problem.=20
      As far as a roundhouse is = concerned,=20 it may be another ten years or so until enough money can be raised for = construction.  The way the tracks were realigned in the yard will = assist=20 in equipment being moved around the yard without the presence of sharp = curves=20 and old ties.  Much of the rail being used is the same rail that = was used=20 with the previous track design.  As far as putting the M1 into = the=20 roundhouse, as long as it's pushed into the roundhouse straight across = the=20 turntable, it should be able to be under cover.=20
      As far as building another = addition=20 onto the rolling stock hall, the only feasible place to build would be = adding=20 onto the existing building, on the end where the parking lot exists. =  The=20 farmer behind the museum has not been willing to cooperate with the = museum=20 acquiring more land from him, and it doesn't look like that will = change any=20 time in the future.  Going down grade behind the museum will be = tricky as=20 everyone knows.  If the addition is to be built, I believe it = will be=20 some years following the construction of the roundhouse.=20
      The museum is working on more=20 interpretive exhibits in the museum itself, but this too will take = time.=20  The lobby is going to be redesigned this winter and the = education center=20 is in operation (although on a limited schedule over the winter) which = all=20 lead to better interpretative exhibits.  I do believe that both = the=20 museum in Strasburg and Altoona complement each other.=20
      The museum now has ownership = of=20 Rivets, and whenever possible, it will be cosmetically restored, and = put under=20 cover.  The addition of the roundhouse will free up space inside = the=20 rolling stock hall for Rivets to come in from the elements.=20
      As far as importing the round = house=20 from Crestline, that would be a massive undertaking.  I believe = one=20 gentleman said that as far as the structure itself is concerned, it is = in=20 relatively good shape.  I would hate to see something happen to = it in=20 transit.  The other "problem" with bringing the roundhouse to = Strasburg=20 is that it was not a structure that was built or existed in the state = of=20 Pennsylvania.  Those two items are major requirements for = acceptance into=20 the museum's collection.  It is ashame that Ohio is not doing = something=20 to atleast begin preservation of this site.=20
      I hope I did not hit too many = nerves=20 with this email, but I wanted to reply and let everyone know what I = know about=20 the happenings at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. =


Walt=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C199C3.211B6340-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING MILLIMETERS... Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 10:48:00 -0600 While our monetary system may be "metric", it's actually quite confusing to most non-Amercians. This is because (1) all our money is green, and (2) all bills are the same size. In nearly all other countries, the denominations are both color coded and different-sized. An additional item is that not all denominations in other countries have a picture of a patriot on the bill. -----Original Message----- From: Norm Bell [mailto:nbell@repco.com] Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 9:22 AM To: Prr-Talk; VVA249@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING MILLIMETERS... The French deGlehn engine would have almost certainly been metric as well as other early imported engines. As a carrier that took goods to many seaports I would expect as now much of the cargo had metric measurements. There were probably metric conversion charts for shipping agents and car inspectors to make sure things would fit ( particularly in box cars). It's a shame we are so scared of the metric system. We have one of the few metric monetary systems that everybody in the world understands but we are afraid of it when it comes to other uses. If you understand the relationship of pennies to dimes to dollars you basically understand the metric system. Norm Bell ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 9:08 AM Subject: [PRR] WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING MILLIMETERS... > In a message dated 1/10/02 9:09:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, bejm@eeg.ccf.org > writes: > > << The U.S. as a whole has, believe it or not, never made any moves > to make the English system official. This is reflected, as well, in the fact > that the NIST, National Institute of Standards and Technology, the former > NBS, National Bureau of Standards, calls the English system thus: "the U.S. > Customary System". I.e., it is simply customary, by custom, that we use it. > In fact, NIST/NBS now defines all English measurements in terms of the > analogous metric measure. >> > > It's a bit awkward to refer to the "English" system - since the Brits no > longer use it! > In Industrial terms it's "USS" (United States Standard) (ASME - ASTM) or > commonly the "Fractional" (now using decimals for measurements under an inch) > > A personal "Rant" - The decimal inch system (using a micrometer) solved > most of the problems of the "Inch" system, and managed to win WW2 for us. > At the end of the war, almost the entire Industrialized Metric world was > in ruins. When we sent them bushel baskets full of dollars we should have > said "This is a dollar bill - lt's 6" long LEARN THAT" > Instead, the always affable "nice guys" financed the rebuilding of the > countries we defeated with brand new METRIC machines - and put ourselves at > an even further disadvantage. > > Real men don't trust anything invented by the French! > > I'll bet that the Mighty PRR very rarely, if ever, used any millimeters, > notice I didn't say never. > Getting back to topic, does anyone know of anything Pennsy specified or > identified in Metric terms? > > Dick Ross > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 12:01:08 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] M1 items... From: Jerry Britton On 1/10/02 11:39 AM, Norm Bell (nbell@repco.com) wrote: > The roundhouse at Crestline would not be appropriate for the Strasburg site in > any way. It is a massive structure with stalls and a turntable designed to > turn T1's, Q2's and the S1. By itself, if I remember correctly from my visit > several years ago, it is bigger than the entire Strasburg site of the RR > museum. The land could be had through eminent domain but a smaller roundhouse > based on a smaller turntable is probably in order For those not in the know, Harrisburg has this mayor named Steve Reed, who's now in his 5th four-year term. Nobody runs against him. Truth is, he's done a great job for the city. The running joke is that he gets his hand into everything. If there's a fire, he's the first on the scene and there to greet the media. He masterminded the "National Civil War Museum" which opened in Harrisburg last year. Truth is, it is a great collection and is nationally recognized. But it was he that had the b%lls to name it as such and get away with it. Now only if he could have snagged the Harrisburg Locomotive Facility...wow! One of the longest turntables on the system, a 180-degree 18 (or so) stall roundhouse, an 8 bay diesel shop. Geez! Conrail razed the facility about 10 years ago to build TrucTrain facilities. Now that NS has built the HUGE facility on the site of the former Reading Rutherford Yard just a few miles away, they probably don't even need the Harrisburg site. Oh, well, just wishing! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Renumbering under equipment trusts -- questions for a Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:27:48 -0500 Rick and list, It was the last week of August, 1957. There were still J's, I's and H's active in Columbus then. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Renumbering under equipment trusts -- questions for a specialist > In a message dated 1/9/02 9:24:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net > writes: > > << Rick and list: > > I do recall a line of dead J's lined up at Columbus, OH, that were lined up > by Trust Plate Date - they were sent to scrap when the trust expired. > Verified this by looking at the trust plates on the cabs. > > Gregg Mahlkov > >> > Wow - what year was that? > > Rick > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "aidrian.bridgeman-sutton" Subject: Fw: [PRR] English units anyone? Or metric? Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 18:30:07 -0000 Heading seriously off topic here but FWIW the US held on to the old values while Brtain changed. Essentially the only difference is in the gallon and related units. The US uses units that were defined in the reign of Queen Anne. Britain and the remaining colonies were affected by the Weights and Measures act of 1824 which established the imperial gallon. Aidrian > (Who once spent a lot of time converting all sorts of things from Imperial > measure to Metric) > As to U.S. versus Canadian/British differences: the only difference in the > unit sizes that I am aware of is the variation in liquid measures, quarts > and gallons. It goes back to some issue or other with the "Queen Anne pint", > and I no longer remember the details. Some web site or other probably has > a complete historical account ... > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:22:17 -0800 From: "Douglas C.Jones" Subject: [PRR] list Sirs; Please remove me from the prrtalk list. Please acknowledge. Thank you, Douglas C. jones ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 11:30:59 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] P-70fbR Evan, I've posted a lot about the P70FBR; most of my ramblings are in the PRR-talk archives. Short version is that the P70FBR had 2EP5 trucks; on other railroads this was often called a "Commonwealth" truck. ECW sells this truck, but I like the MDC/Roundhouse number 2935 Commonwealth trucks. I replace the wheelsets with Kadees and the trucks are very free rolling. I need lots of P70FBRs because I model the New York and Long Branch; they're very common in pictures of both the late steam and early diesel eras. Happy modelling! Doug --- RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > PRR List, > > Recently bought an ECW kit No. 1121. This kit has > an arch roof with six > wheel trucks. Thought this would be a unique car > due to the lone "porthole" > windows on the sides at the same end and the large > trucks, however, all > references to this car have clerestory roofs and > various four wheeled trucks. > > > Is this kit fiction rather than fact? If it did > exist, why did it have six > wheeled trucks? > > Many thanks in advance, > > Evan Leisey > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 15:27:46 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: Re: [PRR] --- Jerry Britton wrote: > And don't forget the "Lines West Fans Fest"! > Although I guess it's been a > while since one was held. *sigh* I'd likke top do it again but after the divorce is final and if my health improves. Tom V. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 15:48:33 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: [PRR] Mea Culpa but not an apology (tangent) --- James Stob wrote: > To VVA249, > > I would hope that in the future you will be a little > more sensitive to the > feelings of those who are wounded by your careless > use of the name of Jesus. > > Thanks, > It wasn't Dick Ross but me that was at fault. I was not refering to the Savior but a small mythical town in Crawford County, Ohio, inhabited by fans of the Baseball Alou brothers, Mattie, Jesus, and Phillipe. In HIspanic cultures, Jesus os a common man's name.. I'm sorry, I don't mean to take your faith lightly I am very serious about my own. I'm sorry if offended you but I"ve been using the term so long that I will use it again. And anyway, HE was far more interested in deed than words. John 3:16 Tom Vondruska, a politically progresive, Yes to the left of liberals, born again Christian! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KLJURY@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 19:43:12 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] M1 items... Here is a minor item I would like to see done at the museum; I know it is somewhat necessary to warn people not to climb onto the exhibits but the ugly, extremely tacky looking license plates hanging on every corner of a locomotive are unsightly and definetely not "world class". Look at some of the other large quality museums such as at Sacramento & Spencer Shops. You don't see them there. How about removing them and placing more tastestful signs near the exhibits? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rdhess10@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:08:38 EST Subject: [PRR] Mantua 0-4-0 Switcher --part1_153.7080d5d.296f9516_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Mantua manufactured an HO 0-4-0 switcher with a sloped back tender. They lettered it PRR 94. The model doesn't have a belpair firebox. Can anyone tell me if the PRR had an 0-4-0 switcher without the belpair firebox and if so, what numbers were assigned? Is this model close to prototype? Any information that anyone can provide would be greatly appreciated, Thanks, Bob Hess --part1_153.7080d5d.296f9516_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi,

      Mantua manufactured an HO 0-4-0 switcher with a sloped back tender.  They lettered it PRR 94.  The model doesn't have a belpair firebox.  Can anyone tell me if the PRR had an 0-4-0 switcher without the belpair firebox and if so, what numbers were assigned?  Is this model close to prototype?
      Any information that anyone can provide would be greatly appreciated,

Thanks,

Bob Hess --part1_153.7080d5d.296f9516_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Mantua 0-4-0 Switcher Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 20:43:30 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C19A17.765FCE00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob and list, If I recall correctly, the original die cast Mantua 0-4-0 was a fairly = close replica of the B&O Dockside switchers (96 through 99) that were = converted from saddletanks to tender locomotives. The cab is too small, = as it was for the B&O P7 that was the basis for the Mantua die cast = Pacific. PRR had non-Belpaire 0-4-0's but they were of a MUCH earlier = era and were no doubt gone by 1915 at the latest.=20 Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: rdhess10@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 8:08 PM Subject: [PRR] Mantua 0-4-0 Switcher Hi,=20 Mantua manufactured an HO 0-4-0 switcher with a sloped back = tender. They lettered it PRR 94. The model doesn't have a belpair = firebox. Can anyone tell me if the PRR had an 0-4-0 switcher without = the belpair firebox and if so, what numbers were assigned? Is this = model close to prototype?=20 Any information that anyone can provide would be greatly = appreciated,=20 Thanks,=20 Bob Hess=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C19A17.765FCE00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Bob and list,
 
If I recall correctly, the original die cast Mantua = 0-4-0 was=20 a fairly close replica of the B&O Dockside switchers (96 through=20 99) that were converted from saddletanks to tender locomotives. The = cab is=20 too small, as it was for the B&O P7 that was the basis for the = Mantua die=20 cast Pacific. PRR had non-Belpaire 0-4-0's but they were of a MUCH = earlier era=20 and were no doubt gone by 1915 at the latest.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 rdhess10@aol.com=20
Sent: Thursday, January 10, = 2002 8:08=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] Mantua 0-4-0=20 Switcher

Hi,=20

      Mantua manufactured an HO = 0-4-0=20 switcher with a sloped back tender.  They lettered it PRR 94. =  The=20 model doesn't have a belpair firebox.  Can anyone tell me if the = PRR had=20 an 0-4-0 switcher without the belpair firebox and if so, what numbers = were=20 assigned?  Is this model close to prototype?=20
      Any information that anyone = can=20 provide would be greatly appreciated,

Thanks,

Bob = Hess=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C19A17.765FCE00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] English units anyone? Or metric? Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 22:21:40 -0500 Rick: Not to worry! I have converted many recipes between American (and Canadian), English and metric for my many international friends. Go to bed early. Get some sleep. :-) Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 7:28 AM Subject: [PRR] English units anyone? Or metric? > In a message dated 1/9/02 1:54:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com > writes: > > << Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cookbook available for download > From: "Patrick Grace" > Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 18:11:09 -0000 > > Lew, > > If you are going to test the cookbook, what about also adding metric > measures, I do know that American Imperial and British Imperial measures are > not the same... > > Patrick Grace > >> > American Imperial -- I think you get credit for creating an interesting new > set of measurements. Got to agree, though, it's confusing. I was always > taught that the measures we US-type-Americans used were called English units. > Schoolteachers taught us how to convert from these "English" units to > metric. Then I found out some of our "English" units weren't the same as > Imperial (British) measures. In fact, I'm still not sure if all of Canada's > Imperial measures are the same as Britain's. Or what this has to do with > TV's or videotapes . > > On second thought, how about a PRR cookbook entirely in metric? Lessee, this > cake takes 454 milligrams of flour, 3.8 liters of water... > > Rick, up way too late. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2002 22:41:15 -0500 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: Re: [PRR] 1966 renumbering ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 5:30 PM Subject: [PRR] 1966 renumbering Rick Tipton wrote: > Now to cause trouble -- when this Great Blot occurred, were most of the PRR > paintouts in DGLE, or were many in DOEB (dingy old engine black)? Remember, > PRR engines were done in PRR shops, and NYC engines in NYC's "Oil Engine > Shops". We can if course exclude the EMD E7 and E8 units, which appear to > have been uniformly painted out in tuscan. My railroad career began in January 1967, 8 months after the great re-numbering, and 13 months before the day of infamy. Most of the paintouts were blended in to the then standard PRR freight color Grungy old engine black which could have at one time been DGLE. Seriously, units maintained at Wilmington Diesel Shop were DGLE paintovers, (called black by shop personnel) as were Orangeville, 46th St. and Pavonia makeovers. The only ones that appeared to be black were the re-paints which had the large Red Keystone PRR Decals applied. Most Baldwin Switchers, Alco RS-3s and GG-1s still had PENNSYLVANIA spelled out. The blackening of PRR diesels in wholesale lots came after 2/1/68. Joe W. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Viv Brice" Subject: RE: [PRR] The Freightcars List Post 2001020559 Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 17:43:41 +1100 Elden, Sorry about that but long links seem to suffer in the translation process somewhere. You need to include every character from 'http://su... to ...ce2d3c' in the link. You might try clicking on the highlighted portion of the link, which will get you an error from your browser but should still leave the partial link showing. then go back to the email, highlight the rest of the link, copy this (Ctrl C) and then paste it (Ctrl V) onto the end of the partial link. This does work with Internet Explorer - I would expect this or something very similar to work with Netscape or any other browser. Regards, Viv -----Original Message----- From: ELDEN GATWOOD [mailto:ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com] Sent: Thursday, 10 January 2002 7:42 am To: Viv Brice; PRR-Talk (E-mail) Subject: RE: [PRR] The Freightcars List Post 2001020559 Anybody else having problems getting to this site? Any ideas? http://sunny16.photo.tntech.edu/~richard/Freightcars/archive/displaypost.php 3?id=2001020559&tableID=FC_20020106_d79200cb07ce2d3c - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 09:15:19 -0500 From: TWRimer@uss.com Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/11/02 Does anyone know of a model paint that approximates the tan/gray (kinda mushroom color) that was used on PRR frame depots? It seems that there were two colors used, with one being a pale yellow. Polly-s CSX tan approximates this color quite well. It's the darker color that I'm looking for, and although I can picture the shade, I'd rather not trust my memory and start mixing paint if there is something out there available. Thanks, Tom Rimer twrimer@uss.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Earl M." Subject: [PRR] PRR Freight Car Red Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 11:05:48 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C19A8F.ECBA07A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What model paints are best for obtaining this color? Is there a blend of = two or more colors maybe?? Maybe I should say what was used on LINES = WEST freight cars !! I have a 1935 PRR drawing that shows a set of 4 MOW XL MOW cars called = out in Battleship Gray. This drawing is copyable at 11x17 and is fairly = clear. It shows the interiors and has numerous references to other = drawing numbers for specific details.......probebly was intended for = LINES WEST rolling stock................................ Earl Myers Louisville, Ohio PRR in 1/29th scale ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C19A8F.ECBA07A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What model paints are best for = obtaining this=20 color? Is there a blend of two or more colors maybe??  Maybe I = should say=20 what was used on LINES WEST freight cars !!
 I have a 1935 PRR drawing that = shows a set of=20 4 MOW  XL MOW cars called out in Battleship Gray. This drawing is = copyable=20 at 11x17 and is fairly clear. It shows the interiors and has numerous = references=20 to other drawing numbers for specific details.......probebly was = intended for=20 LINES WEST rolling stock................................
Earl Myers
Louisville, Ohio
PRR in 1/29th = scale
------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C19A8F.ECBA07A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 11:35:29 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] MP-54s For those of us who love MP-54s and don't like looking at large motors through the windows, I have discovered a source of Tenshodo SPUD trucks which long ago disappeared from the Walthers' Catalog. They are available from Imperial Hobby Products at: http://ihphobby.tripod.com/index.html They also claim to working on a resin MP54 soon to be released! -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 11:46:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] MP-54s Andy, I purchased one of the Pgh Railway PCC body shells that Imperial Products made available. Not bad. I am used to painting the $400.00 brass ones made by MTS Imports. Those are really nice. But for the money, $34.00, it should please anyone who wants to model those PCC's. I still have yet to do anything with mine though. If the MU Cars are anything like these shells, they may have a good product.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] MP-54s Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 09:47:11 -0800 From: "John Cooper" Not just MP54, but the MP85 silverliners, LIRR and MNCR M-series commuters, and a bunch of other commuter units. Woohoo. John > ---------- > From: Andrew S. Miller[SMTP:asmiller@mitre.org] > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 8:35 AM > To: PRR Modeling; PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] MP-54s > > For those of us who love MP-54s and don't like looking at large motors > through the windows, I have discovered a source of Tenshodo SPUD trucks > which long ago disappeared from the Walthers' Catalog. They are > available from Imperial Hobby Products at: > > http://ihphobby.tripod.com/index.html > > They also claim to working on a resin MP54 soon to be released! > -- > > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 13:18:44 EST Subject: [PRR] MP54 on Mainline --part1_14b.719b328.29708684_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, Did the MP-54 commuter cars operate on the mainline west from Philadelphia? If so, how far? Many thanks, Evan Leisey --part1_14b.719b328.29708684_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List,

 Did the  MP-54 commuter cars operate on the mainline west from Philadelphia?  If so,  how far?

Many thanks,

Evan Leisey --part1_14b.719b328.29708684_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 13:38:56 -0500 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 on Mainline This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_8V4HNPvLQvRvurpmwglMxQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Yes - all the way to Harrisburg. They were used just about everywhere that there was Catenary and passenger service. JW ----- Original Message ----- From: RDG2124@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 1:18 PM Subject: [PRR] MP54 on Mainline List, Did the MP-54 commuter cars operate on the mainline west from Philadelphia? If so, how far? Many thanks, Evan Leisey --Boundary_(ID_8V4HNPvLQvRvurpmwglMxQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Yes - all the way to Harrisburg. They were used just about everywhere that there was Catenary and passenger service.
 
JW
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 1:18 PM
Subject: [PRR] MP54 on Mainline

List,

 Did the  MP-54 commuter cars operate on the mainline west from Philadelphia?  If so,  how far?

Many thanks,

Evan Leisey
--Boundary_(ID_8V4HNPvLQvRvurpmwglMxQ)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 13:39:50 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 on Mainline --------------1D1BF0D5F55F7714C5208379 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Absolutely! Mostly to Paoli or Lancaster; but there were a few through runs all the way to H'burg. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > List, > > Did the MP-54 commuter cars operate on the mainline west from > Philadelphia? If so, how far? > > Many thanks, > > Evan Leisey -- --------------1D1BF0D5F55F7714C5208379 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Absolutely!  Mostly to Paoli or Lancaster; but there were a few through runs all the way to H'burg.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================
RDG2124@aol.com wrote:

List,

 Did the  MP-54 commuter cars operate on the mainline west from Philadelphia?  If so,  how far?

Many thanks,

Evan Leisey

--
 
 
  --------------1D1BF0D5F55F7714C5208379-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 on Mainline Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 13:42:17 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C19AA5.C93EC520 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable They operated at least to Paoli. =20 Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK = model railroad items 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RDG2124@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 1:18 PM Subject: [PRR] MP54 on Mainline List,=20 Did the MP-54 commuter cars operate on the mainline west from = Philadelphia? If so, how far?=20 Many thanks,=20 Evan Leisey=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C19AA5.C93EC520 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 
They operated at least to Paoli. 
 
Dennis
mailto: dennis@onerrave.com
 
D & S HOBBIES
http://www.onerrave.com  &= nbsp;           &n= bsp; =20 Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items
34 Main = Street
South=20 Bound Brook, NJ 08880
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com=20
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 = 1:18=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] MP54 on = Mainline

List, =

 Did=20 the  MP-54 commuter cars operate on the mainline west from = Philadelphia?=20  If so,  how far?

Many thanks,

Evan = Leisey=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C19AA5.C93EC520-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 13:48:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 on Mainline From: Jerry Britton On 1/11/02 1:42 PM, Dennis @ D & S Hobbies (dennis@onerrave.com) wrote: > They operated at least to Paoli. > As of 1954 there was at least some MP54 activity all the way to Harrisburg. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 14:02:50 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 on Mainline From: Jerry Britton On 1/11/02 1:48 PM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > On 1/11/02 1:42 PM, Dennis @ D & S Hobbies (dennis@onerrave.com) wrote: > >> They operated at least to Paoli. >> > As of 1954 there was at least some MP54 activity all the way to Harrisburg. > Now that I think about it, there was an article in the "Keystone" about five years ago entitled "Train Watching at Harrisburg". I am almost positive it contained a photo of MP54's at the Harrisburg Station. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 14:20:05 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR Again? From: Jerry Britton >From cnn.com: "The Amtrak Reform Council, which will deliver its recommendations to Congress on February 7, gathers Friday for what could be its last meeting." One of the scenarios being considered is to strip Amtrak of ownership of all the track and stations. I'm sure this is what they want...would take away the advantage the airlines have. An interesting caveat would be if the Philly-Harrisburg line would revert somehow to NS, as successor to Conrail/Penn Central which sold it to Amtrak. Under that scenario, I guess NS would not have to negotiate much longer to reopen the Low Grade, huh? The rights from Atglen eastward would be theirs again! Another scenario would be corporations or municipalities bidding to purchase specific lines and/or routes. For instance, the Philly/Harrisburg route. Hey, what a great investment for the PRRT&HS...let's use K-4s # 1361 again!!! Throw Bennett's EP22's into the frey! Can one of the G's be cranked up again? Okay, I'll take another valium and calm down now! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] MP54 on Mainline Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 15:48:42 -0500 I remember riding MP54 from Harrisburg up until the time the Silverliners came on board. (I was born in '55) Had to be the worst riding cars ever. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 12:51:53 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 on Mainline --- "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" wrote: > > They operated at least to Paoli. According to Mike Bezilla's book on PRR electrification, that's what MP54's were designed for and initially the only thing they did. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 16:37:21 EST Subject: [PRR] MP-54 underfloor trucks Northwest Short Line: Http://nwsl.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 16:45:46 EST Subject: [PRR] Dark building paint (was PRR-Talk Digest - 01/11/02) In a message dated 1/11/02 8:25:11 AM Central Standard Time, TWRimer@uss.com writes: << It's the darker color that I'm looking for, and although I can picture the shade, I'd rather not trust my memory and start mixing paint if there is something out there available. >> If you are referring to the Dark Building Paint, I originally used Nato Tricolor Brown but after looking at it on a few buildings, I realize it seems to be too black and not enough red. Looking at the paint chip from the Society, I now think Pollyscale Roof Brown is reasonably close and I will use it on my next structure. It is not as critical as the light building color as it is the trim. For a while I used a mix of Desert Khaki and White for the light building color, but now think plain old Concrete out of the bottle comes close. Once again, weathering and light will make a big difference. In addition, a thin wash on real wood looks different than airbrushed styrene siding. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 16:57:31 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 on Mainline In a message dated 1/11/02 1:16:16 PM Central Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << Now that I think about it, there was an article in the "Keystone" about five years ago entitled "Train Watching at Harrisburg". I am almost positive it contained a photo of MP54's at the Harrisburg Station. >> I believe there is a photo in one of the Pennsy Power books showing the same (don't ask me which volume:-)). Seems to me they still occasionally went West of Paoli even in the early 70's when I lived in the area, but can't be sure of my memory. Usually that train was a Silverliner (with windows opaque with dirt). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 17:04:21 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 on Mainline And the noisiest ! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Chany, Christopher" wrote: > I remember riding MP54 from Harrisburg up until the time the Silverliners > came on board. (I was born in '55) Had to be the worst riding cars ever. > > Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Patrick Grace" Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54s Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 22:09:57 -0000 Andrew, You could also try Branchlines in Exeter, they sell not only the spud but also an Australian power bogie called a Black Beetle, which has both powered and un-powered versions. Their address is: PO Box 31 Exeter EX4 6NY UK Phone: +44 - 1392 437755 Patrick Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" To: "PRR Modeling" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 4:35 PM Subject: [PRR] MP-54s > For those of us who love MP-54s and don't like looking at large motors > through the windows, I have discovered a source of Tenshodo SPUD trucks > which long ago disappeared from the Walthers' Catalog. They are > available from Imperial Hobby Products at: > > http://ihphobby.tripod.com/index.html > > They also claim to working on a resin MP54 soon to be released! > -- > > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] MP54 on Mainline Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 16:11:14 -0600 Did the MP54's ever venture on to the New Haven after th infamous merger? -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com] Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 3:58 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 on Mainline In a message dated 1/11/02 1:16:16 PM Central Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << Now that I think about it, there was an article in the "Keystone" about five years ago entitled "Train Watching at Harrisburg". I am almost positive it contained a photo of MP54's at the Harrisburg Station. >> I believe there is a photo in one of the Pennsy Power books showing the same (don't ask me which volume:-)). Seems to me they still occasionally went West of Paoli even in the early 70's when I lived in the area, but can't be sure of my memory. Usually that train was a Silverliner (with windows opaque with dirt). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 on Mainline Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 18:28:21 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C19ACD.BFC02B60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lewis J. Matt PhD=20 To: RDG2124@aol.com=20 Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 6:27 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 on Mainline I rode them to Harrisburg from Lancaster. Lew Matt ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RDG2124@aol.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 1:18 PM Subject: [PRR] MP54 on Mainline List,=20 Did the MP-54 commuter cars operate on the mainline west from = Philadelphia? If so, how far?=20 Many thanks,=20 Evan Leisey=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C19ACD.BFC02B60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lewis J. = Matt PhD=20
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 = 6:27=20 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 on = Mainline

I rode them to Harrisburg from=20 Lancaster.
 
Lew Matt
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com=20
Sent: Friday, January 11, = 2002 1:18=20 PM
Subject: [PRR] MP54 on = Mainline

List,=20

 Did the  MP-54 commuter cars operate on the = mainline west=20 from Philadelphia?  If so,  how far?

Many thanks,=20

Evan Leisey =
------=_NextPart_000_0054_01C19ACD.BFC02B60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Freight Car Red Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 18:26:34 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C19ACD.803DEE00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Earl--Two places to start: (1) Modelflex Light Tuscan Oxide Red--It is = an acrylic. I do not know where Badger came up with the name. Maybe = just because it is for PRR cars they thought it was obligatory to use = Tuscan. (2) Scalecoat II PRR Freight Car Color--solvent based, safe for = plastics. Spray today, wait a week to do decals, but the decals go on = that gloss sooooo nice. I like both colors for my 1954 freight cars. They are slightly = different, but I weather everything so nothing ever ends up the same = anyway. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C19ACD.803DEE00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Earl--Two places to start: (1) = Modelflex Light=20 Tuscan Oxide Red--It is an acrylic. I do not know where Badger came up = with the=20 name.  Maybe just because it is for PRR cars they thought it was = obligatory=20 to use Tuscan.
 
(2) Scalecoat II PRR Freight Car = Color--solvent=20 based, safe for plastics.  Spray today, wait a week to do decals, = but the=20 decals go on that gloss sooooo nice.
 
I like both colors for my 1954 freight = cars. =20 They are slightly different, but I weather everything so nothing ever = ends up=20 the same anyway.
 
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL
------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C19ACD.803DEE00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 20:11:32 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 on Mainline (Cross posted to a coupla NH RR lists....) "Cadwell, Marvin L" wrote: > Did the MP54's ever venture on to the New Haven after the >infamous merger? Not that I've ever heard. best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Pick a number please Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 23:00:30 -0500 Hi All, I am hoping the resident steam engine Gurus could help me pick out engine numbers for the following. Both should be confirmed (preferably with a dated photo) to run as late as possible since I am modeling 1956-57 and have had the full modernization conversion. I have previously spent HOURS pouring over books picking out numbers for my engines. M-1b Preferences: Eastern region possibly assigned to or worked in the Philadelphia area. K-4 Preferences: (In order of importance) assigned EA and CTE. Run on the PRSL and/or the NY & LB Trainphone on the tender. I realize that trainphone under the catenary was rare. Possibly have clean out plugs in the firebox like on the M-1b. I thought about making #612, but do not want to make the front end throttle. Not number 54XX as I already have #5495. Possibly a 3 digit number. Any help would be most appreciated. Please reply to billlane@snip.net Thank You Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2002 23:00:30 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Pick a number please Hi All, I am hoping the resident steam engine Gurus could help me pick out engine numbers for the following. Both should be confirmed (preferably with a dated photo) to run as late as possible since I am modeling 1956-57 and have had the full modernization conversion. I have previously spent HOURS pouring over books picking out numbers for my engines. M-1b Preferences: Eastern region possibly assigned to or worked in the Philadelphia area. K-4 Preferences: (In order of importance) assigned EA and CTE. Run on the PRSL and/or the NY & LB Trainphone on the tender. I realize that trainphone under the catenary was rare. Possibly have clean out plugs in the firebox like on the M-1b. I thought about making #612, but do not want to make the front end throttle. Not number 54XX as I already have #5495. Possibly a 3 digit number. Any help would be most appreciated. Please reply to billlane@snip.net Thank You Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Tiny Wireless Camera under $80! Order Now! FREE VCR Commander! Click Here - Only 1 Day Left! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WoOlbB/7.PDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 08:38:52 EST Subject: [PRR] Off List Subject - ALCO RS-3 --part1_94.1fb84b06.2971966c_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lists, Am trying to locate dimensional data for modeling purposes of the dynamic brake exhaust vent (stack) located on the top of the short hood. Or is there a detail part made in HO scale for this vent. Many thanks in advance, Evan Leisey --part1_94.1fb84b06.2971966c_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lists,

   Am trying to locate dimensional data for modeling purposes of the dynamic brake exhaust vent (stack) located on the top of the short hood.  Or is there a detail part made in HO scale for this vent.

Many thanks in advance,

Evan Leisey --part1_94.1fb84b06.2971966c_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] Alexander's On The Main Line Book Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 11:51:26 -0500 I am in the process of reducing my collection of hard cover books and will be selling a copy of E. P. Alexander's "On The Main Line" which covers the Pennsy in the 19th century in great detail. This copy is in excellent condition with a tight binding and no torn or marked pages. The dust jacket is in VG condition with only two small tears at top of front jacket. Ron's Books website currently lists a copy in good condition for $75.00. I am offering my copy to list members for $35.00 including shipping before I eventually list it on ebay. Please contact me off-list if interested. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 09:58:10 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: [PRR] bowser repowering Gize, A while back I inquired about the latest version of the Helix Humper/Alco Industries/et cetera Bowser locomotive can motor and fly wheel repower kit. The reaction was generally negative, I've decided to to switch the motors and gear boxes on my Bowser I1 2-10-0 Decapod, H8 2-8-0 Consolidation and E6 4-4-2 Atlantic with Northwest Short Line parts ala the Northwest Short Line recommended repower of MDC-Roundhouse kit locomotives. I've re-geared my MDC E6 with a 1:42 ( I think I remember) gearbox and my MDC H8 consolidation with a 1:72 gearbox. Are the parts the same for re-powering the bowser kits. What about giving the Decapod freight gearing? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 10:07:18 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: [PRR] Passenger/Mail consist modeling help needed It's me, once again. An old rail fan has given me a virid description of the ""Collier's"" special, the Friday Springfield section of The Union, the evening coach and sleeper name train to Chicago with other coaches and sleepers originating from Dayton and from Cincinnati with a diner and observation/longue. Six days a week the Chicago-bound Springfield section of the Union was a heavyweight baggage car, sleeper and coach pulled by a K4 4-6-2 Pacific. But on Friday the Cowles-Collier rotogravure plant would send the weekly issue of Collier's magazine out to the world (until August 1953) via the Springfield branch so each Friday the Union would grow by 20 or so cars. As I model the branch in July 1949, the month before dieselization of Xenia which coincided with my buddy's junior high rail fanning I was treated to a vivid description of the additional cars as usually a handful of some older heavyweight baggage cars but most were troop sleepers converted from X-3+ class round top boxes that retained the end doors and passenger truck but had the porthole windows blanked out and box car sliding side doors re-installed. I'd like to model this in HO. I need some recommendations on modeling the Pacifics, Bowser vs. Bachman, on kits for the heavyweight coach, sleeper and baggage car and the best way to model the ex-troop sleepers. Thanx in advance, Tom V. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 10:09:45 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: [PRR] accuractely using inaccurate Mantua locos in PRR modeling And yet once again, I picked up a mess of HO Mantua locos in varying states. some are 4-6-2 or 2-8-4 but all have round fire boxes. Did the DT&I, NYC, Erie, B&O, L&N or N&W have a ?-6-? or ?-8-? locomotive with round firebox that I can model these as? (the above roads either cross or interchange with the Panhandle's Columbus Division in and around Xenia, Columbus and Cincinnati and could conceivably end up on the Springfield branch through Yellow Springs. Thanx in advance Tom V __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] accuractely using inaccurate Mantua locos in PRR Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 14:29:43 -0500 Tom, The Mantua 4-6-2 is based loosely on the B&P P7 "President" class of Pacific as it looked after WW II. These locomotives were painted blue until the end of operations by steam power on the B&O. The DT&I, which was owned by the PRR (throught the Wabash pre 1964 and directly 1964-1968) had both 2-8-2's and 2-8-4's quite similar to the Mantua engines, except they had vestibule cabs. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Vondruska" To: Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 1:09 PM Subject: [PRR] accuractely using inaccurate Mantua locos in PRR modeling > And yet once again, > > I picked up a mess of HO Mantua locos in varying > states. some are 4-6-2 or 2-8-4 but all have round > fire boxes. Did the DT&I, NYC, Erie, B&O, L&N or N&W > have a ?-6-? or ?-8-? locomotive with round firebox > that I can model these as? (the above roads either > cross or interchange with the Panhandle's Columbus > Division in and around Xenia, Columbus and Cincinnati > and could conceivably end up on the Springfield branch > through Yellow Springs. > > Thanx in advance > > Tom V > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] accuractely using inaccurate Mantua locos in PRR Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 15:03:37 -0500 The should be ......on the B&O P7 "President"........., sorry. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" To: "Tom Vondruska" ; Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 2:29 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] accuractely using inaccurate Mantua locos in PRR modeling > Tom, > > The Mantua 4-6-2 is based loosely on the B&P P7 "President" class of Pacific > as it looked after WW II. These locomotives were painted blue until the end > of operations by steam power on the B&O. The DT&I, which was owned by the > PRR (throught the Wabash pre 1964 and directly 1964-1968) had both 2-8-2's > and 2-8-4's quite similar to the Mantua engines, except they had vestibule > cabs. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Vondruska" > To: > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 1:09 PM > Subject: [PRR] accuractely using inaccurate Mantua locos in PRR modeling > > > > And yet once again, > > > > I picked up a mess of HO Mantua locos in varying > > states. some are 4-6-2 or 2-8-4 but all have round > > fire boxes. Did the DT&I, NYC, Erie, B&O, L&N or N&W > > have a ?-6-? or ?-8-? locomotive with round firebox > > that I can model these as? (the above roads either > > cross or interchange with the Panhandle's Columbus > > Division in and around Xenia, Columbus and Cincinnati > > and could conceivably end up on the Springfield branch > > through Yellow Springs. > > > > Thanx in advance > > > > Tom V > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! > > http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 13:28:03 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Possible N6a Hi everyone, Do any of you have the Cedco PRR calendar for 2002 hanging on a wall close by? I'm looking at mine, the January 2002 page of course, and behind the dark green locomotive enameled diesels one can find a PRR cabin car in MofW yellow. But wait, exectly WHAT CLASS of cabin car is this? It's made of wood, and it has the characteristic large square-cornered "Mae West" style cupola. Could this be a photo of the once-numerous but photographically elusive N6a class? If so, this is quite remarkable, given the late date!?! Anyone else care to comment? Anyone else as amazed as I am? - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 00:22:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Possible N6a Claus Had a chance to look at the pic you mentioned. Dosn't appear to be Pennsy to me. The cupola also has the car number similar to how the UP decorated theirs. Being this is Michigan I doubt if it is a UP caboose either. .....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 01:22:51 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Possible N6a Nope it's a C&O caboose. Notice the C&O units parked next to the PRR FM's. --------------------------------------------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Dmurp670@cs.com Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 08:44:49 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/13/02 --part1_105.f63ef45.2972e951_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/13/02 1:11:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Subject: Re: [PRR] accuractely using inaccurate Mantua locos in PRR modeling > From: "Gregg Mahlkov" > Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 14:29:43 -0500 > > Tom, > > The Mantua 4-6-2 is based loosely on the B&P P7 "President" class of Pacific > as it looked after WW II. These locomotives were painted blue until the end > of operations by steam power on the B&O. The DT&I, which was owned by the > PRR (throught the Wabash pre 1964 and directly 1964-1968) had both 2-8-2's > and 2-8-4's quite similar to the Mantua engines, except they had vestibule > cabs. > > Gregg Mahlkov > Greg, What color of blue did the B&O use? Royal Blue? Were the smoke box and firebox sides graphite. Were there any other colors like a red cab roof? Are there any color pictures of one on the web? I am painting an S scale Pacific in this paint for a customer and have found this info hard to come by. Thanks. Don Murphy --part1_105.f63ef45.2972e951_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 1/13/02 1:11:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Subject: Re: [PRR] accuractely using inaccurate Mantua locos in PRR modeling
From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 14:29:43 -0500

Tom,

The Mantua 4-6-2 is based loosely on the B&P P7 "President" class of Pacific
as it looked after WW II. These locomotives were painted blue until the end
of operations by steam power on the B&O. The DT&I, which was owned by the
PRR (throught the Wabash pre 1964 and directly 1964-1968) had both 2-8-2's
and 2-8-4's quite similar to the Mantua engines, except they had vestibule
cabs.

Gregg Mahlkov



Greg,

What color of blue did the B&O use? Royal Blue? Were the smoke box and firebox sides graphite. Were there any other colors like a red cab roof? Are there any color pictures of one on the web?

I am painting an S scale Pacific in this paint for a customer and have found this info hard to come by.

Thanks.

Don Murphy

--part1_105.f63ef45.2972e951_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] accuractely using inaccurate Mantua locos in PRR Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 09:31:00 -0600 The Manua 4-6-2 is close to a B&O P-7 pacific, and there have been articles in MR on how to make the model more accurate. I'm not sure that the boiler is an exact match, but it is clost. -----Original Message----- From: Tom Vondruska [mailto:prrlineswest@yahoo.com] Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 12:10 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] accuractely using inaccurate Mantua locos in PRR modeling And yet once again, I picked up a mess of HO Mantua locos in varying states. some are 4-6-2 or 2-8-4 but all have round fire boxes. Did the DT&I, NYC, Erie, B&O, L&N or N&W have a ?-6-? or ?-8-? locomotive with round firebox that I can model these as? (the above roads either cross or interchange with the Panhandle's Columbus Division in and around Xenia, Columbus and Cincinnati and could conceivably end up on the Springfield branch through Yellow Springs. Thanx in advance Tom V __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TJ LInk" Subject: [PRR] accurail hoppers Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 10:34:06 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C19C1D.D40708E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fellas, I'm thinking about getting some Accurail USRA 55 ton two bay = hoppers lettered for the PRR, anyone have any comments as to their = accuracy in paint scheme, lettering, or overall detail? Matt Link ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C19C1D.D40708E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fellas,  I'm thinking about getting some Accurail USRA 55 ton = two bay=20 hoppers lettered for the PRR, anyone have any comments as to their = accuracy in=20 paint scheme, lettering, or overall detail? Matt = Link
------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C19C1D.D40708E0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 10:42:02 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Historical lithograph of Penn Station NYC, circa 1910 From: Paul Leber I'm seeking information about a lithograph of Penn Station, a "bird's eye" view looking towards Long Island It's approximately 4.75 x 2.75 feet in size. I've seen it in books, and I've been told the PRR distributed it at about the time the station opened in NYC (circa 1910). Any information about it would be appreciated. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/13/02 Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 10:54:32 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C19C20.AE93E8A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don Murphy, The B&O P7 I saw at Benwood, WV, in August 1957 was painted Royal Blue, = all over, wheels, siderods, boiler, trucks, etc. The paint had peeled = and burned somewhat on the smokebox and firebox. It had also been = renumbered from the 5300-series to the 100-series.=20 Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dmurp670@cs.com=20 To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Cc: mahlkov@gtcom.net=20 Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 8:44 AM Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/13/02 In a message dated 1/13/02 1:11:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, = PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:=20 Subject: Re: [PRR] accuractely using inaccurate Mantua locos in PRR = modeling=20 From: "Gregg Mahlkov" =20 Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 14:29:43 -0500=20 Tom,=20 The Mantua 4-6-2 is based loosely on the B&P P7 "President" class of = Pacific=20 as it looked after WW II. These locomotives were painted blue until = the end=20 of operations by steam power on the B&O. The DT&I, which was owned = by the=20 PRR (throught the Wabash pre 1964 and directly 1964-1968) had both = 2-8-2's=20 and 2-8-4's quite similar to the Mantua engines, except they had = vestibule=20 cabs.=20 Gregg Mahlkov=20 Greg,=20 What color of blue did the B&O use? Royal Blue? Were the smoke box and = firebox sides graphite. Were there any other colors like a red cab roof? = Are there any color pictures of one on the web?=20 I am painting an S scale Pacific in this paint for a customer and have = found this info hard to come by.=20 Thanks.=20 Don Murphy=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C19C20.AE93E8A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Don Murphy,
 
The B&O P7 I saw at Benwood, WV, in August 1957 = was=20 painted Royal Blue, all over, wheels, siderods, boiler, trucks, etc. The = paint=20 had peeled and burned somewhat on the smokebox and firebox. It had also = been=20 renumbered from the 5300-series to the 100-series.
 
Gregg Mahlkov
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dmurp670@cs.com=20
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 = 8:44=20 AM
Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest -=20 01/13/02

In a message=20 dated 1/13/02 1:11:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: =


Subject: Re: [PRR] accuractely using inaccurate Mantua = locos in=20 PRR modeling
From: "Gregg Mahlkov" <mahlkov@gtcom.net> =
Date: Sat, 12=20 Jan 2002 14:29:43 -0500

Tom,

The Mantua 4-6-2 is = based=20 loosely on the B&P P7 "President" class of Pacific
as it = looked=20 after WW II. These locomotives were painted blue until the end =
of=20 operations by steam power on the B&O. The DT&I, which was = owned by=20 the
PRR (throught the Wabash pre 1964 and directly 1964-1968) = had both=20 2-8-2's
and 2-8-4's quite similar to the Mantua engines, except = they had=20 vestibule
cabs.

Gregg Mahlkov



Greg,

What=20 color of blue did the B&O use? Royal Blue? Were the smoke box and = firebox=20 sides graphite. Were there any other colors like a red cab roof? Are = there any=20 color pictures of one on the web?

I am painting an S scale = Pacific in=20 this paint for a customer and have found this info hard to come by.=20

Thanks.

Don Murphy=20

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C19C20.AE93E8A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "aidrian.bridgeman-sutton" Subject: Re: [PRR] accurail hoppers Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 16:39:04 -0000 << Fellas, I'm thinking about getting some Accurail USRA 55 ton two bay hoppers lettered for the PRR, anyone have any comments as to their accuracy in paint scheme, lettering, or overall detail? >> Since I model several roads that used USRA hoppers (or the post war ARA standard copies) I have a bunch of them. The models are pretty good, but have a slight problem with shrinkage in the car sides where the slope sheets join the sides. Some cars are pretty good, others less so. In terms of proportions it's a better model than the Tichy kit which has odd spcing of the ribs and is a bit long, but should have Andrews trucks rather than the ARA type - the so called "Bettendorf" truck. You can buy the Andrews trucks separately from Accurail - these are very nice trucks. Yes, the PRR had some USRA hoppers - which came from the Long Island IRC - but they were pretty few and far between. You might justify one or two if you were trying to present a balanced picture, but they would be pretty much swamped by other types. If you are concerned about proportions of freightcars you'll probably want to have lots of Bowser H21s and a good few GLas for every USRA twin. Off the top of my head there were something in the order of a hundred H21s for every USRA hopper The paint and lettering looks pretty convincing and I like their version of freightcar colour much better than the Bowser colour. it looks as if they've got the lettering right HTH Aidrian ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] accurail hoppers Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 12:24:35 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C19C2D.43107D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Accu-Rail Pennsy USRA hopper is a pretty decent model for an = operating layout. Like others have mentioned, you wouldn't find too = many in a general Pennsy hopper population. I personally like their body color. You = should strive to get cars from their last run of 12 cars as earlier runs = had the herald too far up on the sides. Contact me directly if you want = more than one as I have a latest 12-pack that I have broken up to sell individually to customers. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: TJ LInk To: PRR-Talk Date: Sunday, January 13, 2002 10:45 AM Subject: [PRR] accurail hoppers Fellas, I'm thinking about getting some Accurail USRA 55 ton two bay = hoppers lettered for the PRR, anyone have any comments as to their = accuracy in paint scheme, lettering, or overall detail? Matt Link ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C19C2D.43107D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The Accu-Rail Pennsy USRA hopper is a pretty decent = model for=20 an operating layout.  Like others have mentioned, you wouldn't find = too=20 many in a general
Pennsy hopper population.  I personally like = their body=20 color.  You should strive to get cars from = their last=20 run of 12 cars as earlier runs had the herald too far up on the = sides. =20 Contact me directly if you want more than one as I have a = latest
12-pack that I have broken up to sell individually = to=20 customers.
 
Frank Brua
-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 TJ LInk <chef@richnet.net>
To: = PRR-Talk=20 <PRR-Talk@dsop.com>
Date:=20 Sunday, January 13, 2002 10:45 AM
Subject: [PRR] = accurail=20 hoppers

Fellas,  I'm thinking about getting some Accurail USRA 55 = ton two=20 bay hoppers lettered for the PRR, anyone have any comments as to their = accuracy in paint scheme, lettering, or overall detail? Matt=20 Link
------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C19C2D.43107D20-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "aidrian.bridgeman-sutton" Subject: Re: [PRR] accuractely using inaccurate Mantua locos in PRR Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 20:28:44 -0000 > The Manua 4-6-2 is close to a B&O P-7 pacific, and there have been articles > in MR on how to make the model more accurate. I'm not sure that the boiler > is an exact match, but it is clost. As a consequence the mike and the 2-8-4 which was derived from the mike were a complete fiction - the boiler is essentially that of the P-7, and is so distinctive that you can't easily disguise it as anything else without major engineering work. Try the Cary USRA heavy boilers from Bowser if you find the thought of the very serious metal work needed on the Mantua castings less than exciting. That will give you the makings of an L&N mike. Aidrian ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] accuractely using inaccurate Mantua locos in PRR Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 15:59:32 -0500 Aidrian and list: At least when the Mantua Mikado was in kit form, it had a completely different boiler than the Pacific - much heavier and of a uniform diameter. "Model Railroader" said it was derived from a DT&I plan in its re-review of the kit in the 1970's (ca. 1975). Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "aidrian.bridgeman-sutton" To: Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2002 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] accuractely using inaccurate Mantua locos in PRR modeling > > > The Manua 4-6-2 is close to a B&O P-7 pacific, and there have been > articles > > in MR on how to make the model more accurate. I'm not sure that the > boiler > > is an exact match, but it is clost. > > As a consequence the mike and the 2-8-4 which was derived from the mike > were > a complete fiction - the boiler is essentially that of the P-7, and is so > distinctive that you can't easily disguise it as anything else without major > engineering work. > > Try the Cary USRA heavy boilers from Bowser if you find the thought of the > very serious metal work needed on the Mantua castings less than exciting. > That will give you the makings of an L&N mike. > > Aidrian > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ThreeButchers@cs.com Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 18:38:00 EST Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car in Cedco 2002 Calender Claus; I am responding from the digest...if this has already made the rounds...my apologies. The Caboose in the January 2002 Cedco calendar is numbered and painted consistent with ex- Pere Marquette wood cabooses owned by the C&O. General location is also consistent with same. Regards; Brian Butcher ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 00:27:41 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] RWET table, PRR Covered hoppers, as of Jan 2002 Greetings listers, Been busy studying pictures of PRR covered hoppers over the holidays, preparing for the lettering article to come in the Keystone. Some of the offline points probably need the attention of experts on the GN, L&N, and Milwaukee Road. Our table of "return when empty" stencils has grown somewhat: City State Line Stencil Commodity Loading customer 59th Street Chicago IL Panhandle Line Return when empty to PRR 59th St. Chicago Ill. Akron OH CA&C Br. When empty return to Akron OH Baltimore MD Canton Br. Return when empty to Clinton St. Baltimore Md. fertilizer Baugh Chemical (later Lebanon Barberton OH CA&C Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Barberton Ohio Bellefonte PA Bald Eagle Br. Return Empty/to Bellefonte PA/PRR crushed limestone multiple stone companies Buffalo NY Buffalo Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Buffalo NY Flour Cape May NJ Cape May Br. P-RSL Return when empty to Cape May NJ PRR Dolomite Harbison-Walker Magnacite Cincinnati OH Cincinnati District Return when empty to/Cincinnati Ohio Cincinnati (B&O) OH B&O When empty return to B&O Cincinnati Ohio Circleville OH C&MV Return when empty to PRR Circleville Ohio Detroit MI Toledo Div Return Empty/to PRR/Detroit MI E. Fultonham OH Fultonham Spur, Zanesv Br Return when/empty to PRR/E. Fultonham Ohio Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. Frankfort IN I&F Branch Return when empty to PRR Frankfort Ind. Frazer PA Philadelphia Div. Return when empty to PRR Frazer Pa. Gibsonburg OH Toledo Div Dolomite Glassboro NJ P-RSL Glass sand Grand Forks ND GN RR or NP RR Flour North Dakota Mill & Elevator Indianapolis IN Indianapolis Div. Return when empty to PRR Indianapolis Ind. Kenny Yard PA Monongahela Branch Return when empty to PRR Kenny Pa. Kiskeminetas Jct PA Conemaugh Div Return when/empty to PRR/Kiskeminetas/Junction PA Lake City MN MILW Flour Tennant & Hoyt Milling (Golden Loaf) Logansport IN Logansport Div Return when empty to PRR Logansport Ind. Cement Lo Cement Mapleton PA Middle Division Main Return when/empty to PRR/Mapleton Pa. Glass sand Pennsylvania Glass Sand Marcus Hook PA Maryland Div. Return when empty to PRR Marcus Hook Pa. Martins Creek PA Bel Del Branch Return when/empty to PRR/Martins Creek/Pa. McVeytown PA Middle Division Main Glass sand Pennsylvania Glass Sand Millville NJ P-RSL When empty return to/PRSL Millville/NJ Glass sand Wheaton Glass Minneapolis MN MILW When empty return to/Minneapolis Minn/Milwaukee Road Flour International Milling Mt. Clemens MI GTW RR Return when empty to Mt. ???? Mich. Mt. Vernon OH Akron Br. Millwood Sand (on the Howard Br.) Sand Millwood Sand (on the Howard Br.) N. Claymont DE Maryland Div. Return when empty to N. Claymont DE Paris IL Peoria Br. Return when empty to/PRR Paris Ill. Philadelphia PA Philadelphia Terminal Div. Return when empty to/PRR North Stanley Yard/Philad Portage WI MILW Return when empty/to CMStP&P R.R./Portage Wisc S. Kearny NJ New York Div. Return when empty to/PRR South Kearny, N.J. Shackamaxon PA Philadelphia Terminal Div. When empty return to PRR Shackamaxon Station Philadelphia Pa. Speeds IN Louisville Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Speeds Ind Cement Louisville Cement Company Toledo OH Toledo Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Toledo Ohio/district Trenton MI Detroit & Toledo Shore Line Return when empty to DTSL/Trenton Mich. Watkins Glen NY Elmira Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Watkins Glen N.Y. Whitlock TN L&N RR Return when/empty to L&N/Whitlock, Tenn. Winona MN Milwaukee Road Flour Bay State Milling York PA Maryland Div. Return when/empty to PRR/York Pa. As before, I'm asking for review and factual information on these assignment points, such as known shippers and commodities that justified the assignment of PRR covered hoppers. As you all saw, the Frankfort IN thread got out of hand, with all kinds of guessing going on -- none of which can be used in a hardboiled, factual environment like the Keystone. I'll leave you with this last thought on the subject -- a town with a PRR-served industry named "Premium Swine" can't be all bad. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Access Your PC from Anywhere It's Easy. It's Fun. - Free Download http://us.click.yahoo.com/xnjxPB/0akDAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 00:27:41 EST Subject: [PRR] RWET table, PRR Covered hoppers, as of Jan 2002 Greetings listers, Been busy studying pictures of PRR covered hoppers over the holidays, preparing for the lettering article to come in the Keystone. Some of the offline points probably need the attention of experts on the GN, L&N, and Milwaukee Road. Our table of "return when empty" stencils has grown somewhat: City State Line Stencil Commodity Loading customer 59th Street Chicago IL Panhandle Line Return when empty to PRR 59th St. Chicago Ill. Akron OH CA&C Br. When empty return to Akron OH Baltimore MD Canton Br. Return when empty to Clinton St. Baltimore Md. fertilizer Baugh Chemical (later Lebanon Barberton OH CA&C Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Barberton Ohio Bellefonte PA Bald Eagle Br. Return Empty/to Bellefonte PA/PRR crushed limestone multiple stone companies Buffalo NY Buffalo Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Buffalo NY Flour Cape May NJ Cape May Br. P-RSL Return when empty to Cape May NJ PRR Dolomite Harbison-Walker Magnacite Cincinnati OH Cincinnati District Return when empty to/Cincinnati Ohio Cincinnati (B&O) OH B&O When empty return to B&O Cincinnati Ohio Circleville OH C&MV Return when empty to PRR Circleville Ohio Detroit MI Toledo Div Return Empty/to PRR/Detroit MI E. Fultonham OH Fultonham Spur, Zanesv Br Return when/empty to PRR/E. Fultonham Ohio Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. Frankfort IN I&F Branch Return when empty to PRR Frankfort Ind. Frazer PA Philadelphia Div. Return when empty to PRR Frazer Pa. Gibsonburg OH Toledo Div Dolomite Glassboro NJ P-RSL Glass sand Grand Forks ND GN RR or NP RR Flour North Dakota Mill & Elevator Indianapolis IN Indianapolis Div. Return when empty to PRR Indianapolis Ind. Kenny Yard PA Monongahela Branch Return when empty to PRR Kenny Pa. Kiskeminetas Jct PA Conemaugh Div Return when/empty to PRR/Kiskeminetas/Junction PA Lake City MN MILW Flour Tennant & Hoyt Milling (Golden Loaf) Logansport IN Logansport Div Return when empty to PRR Logansport Ind. Cement Lo Cement Mapleton PA Middle Division Main Return when/empty to PRR/Mapleton Pa. Glass sand Pennsylvania Glass Sand Marcus Hook PA Maryland Div. Return when empty to PRR Marcus Hook Pa. Martins Creek PA Bel Del Branch Return when/empty to PRR/Martins Creek/Pa. McVeytown PA Middle Division Main Glass sand Pennsylvania Glass Sand Millville NJ P-RSL When empty return to/PRSL Millville/NJ Glass sand Wheaton Glass Minneapolis MN MILW When empty return to/Minneapolis Minn/Milwaukee Road Flour International Milling Mt. Clemens MI GTW RR Return when empty to Mt. ???? Mich. Mt. Vernon OH Akron Br. Millwood Sand (on the Howard Br.) Sand Millwood Sand (on the Howard Br.) N. Claymont DE Maryland Div. Return when empty to N. Claymont DE Paris IL Peoria Br. Return when empty to/PRR Paris Ill. Philadelphia PA Philadelphia Terminal Div. Return when empty to/PRR North Stanley Yard/Philad Portage WI MILW Return when empty/to CMStP&P R.R./Portage Wisc S. Kearny NJ New York Div. Return when empty to/PRR South Kearny, N.J. Shackamaxon PA Philadelphia Terminal Div. When empty return to PRR Shackamaxon Station Philadelphia Pa. Speeds IN Louisville Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Speeds Ind Cement Louisville Cement Company Toledo OH Toledo Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Toledo Ohio/district Trenton MI Detroit & Toledo Shore Line Return when empty to DTSL/Trenton Mich. Watkins Glen NY Elmira Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Watkins Glen N.Y. Whitlock TN L&N RR Return when/empty to L&N/Whitlock, Tenn. Winona MN Milwaukee Road Flour Bay State Milling York PA Maryland Div. Return when/empty to PRR/York Pa. As before, I'm asking for review and factual information on these assignment points, such as known shippers and commodities that justified the assignment of PRR covered hoppers. As you all saw, the Frankfort IN thread got out of hand, with all kinds of guessing going on -- none of which can be used in a hardboiled, factual environment like the Keystone. I'll leave you with this last thought on the subject -- a town with a PRR-served industry named "Premium Swine" can't be all bad. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 06:58:11 -0500 From: TWRimer@uss.com Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/11/02 I sent the following on 1/11 but the answer concerned the color of PRR Mof W equipment rather than frame depots. I'll give it another try. ----- Forwarded by Thomas W Rimer/Detroit/USX on 01/14/2002 06:57 AM ----- Thomas W Rimer To: PRR-Talk 01/11/2002 cc: 09:15 AM Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/11/02(Document link: Thomas W Rimer) Does anyone know of a model paint that approximates the tan/gray (kinda mushroom color) that was used on PRR frame depots? It seems that there were two colors used, with one being a pale yellow. Polly-s CSX tan approximates this color quite well. It's the darker color that I'm looking for, and although I can picture the shade, I'd rather not trust my memory and start mixing paint if there is something out there available. Thanks, Tom Rimer twrimer@uss.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 09:37:28 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] bowser repowering Tom, I hope I wasn't one of the negative quotes. I don't recall even seeing the thread, and I watch everything ;-) I have put 2 Helix Humpers in a pair of Bowser L1s. While the engines do not pull any better (or worse) than with the original DC71, they are much smoother running, AND QUIET! Its hard to believe they are Bowser locos. Now that the HH are again available, I will repower other Bowser locos (K4s) with them. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Tom Vondruska wrote: > Gize, > > A while back I inquired about the latest version of > the Helix Humper/Alco Industries/et cetera Bowser > locomotive can motor and fly wheel repower kit. The > reaction was generally negative, I've decided to to > switch the motors and gear boxes on my Bowser I1 > 2-10-0 Decapod, H8 2-8-0 Consolidation and E6 4-4-2 > Atlantic with Northwest Short Line parts ala the > Northwest Short Line recommended repower of > MDC-Roundhouse kit locomotives. I've re-geared my MDC > E6 with a 1:42 ( I think I remember) gearbox and my > MDC H8 consolidation with a 1:72 gearbox. Are the > parts the same for re-powering the bowser kits. What > about giving the Decapod freight gearing? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 10:01:16 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger/Mail consist modeling help needed Tom, If you plan on pulling 20+ cars, you had better look at the Bowser K4. Your best bet (other than brass) for the various cars are probably the old standbys: - ECW (ex Bethlehem) B-60 - ECW or Bachmann P-70 (you will need to paint the ECW, and probably repaint the Bachmann) - Red Caboose X-20 for REA service - Rivarossi 12-1 Pullman or the forthcoming Branchline 10-2-1, 8-2-1 - The ex troop sleeper are a challenge. You may have to kitbash them from Bowser X31s. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Tom Vondruska wrote: > It's me, once again. > > An old rail fan has given me a virid description of > the ""Collier's"" special, the Friday Springfield > section of The Union, the evening coach and sleeper > name train to Chicago with other coaches and sleepers > originating from Dayton and from Cincinnati with a > diner and observation/longue. > Six days a week the Chicago-bound Springfield > section of the Union was a heavyweight baggage car, > sleeper and coach pulled by a K4 4-6-2 Pacific. But on > Friday the Cowles-Collier rotogravure plant would send > the weekly issue of Collier's magazine out to the > world (until August 1953) via the Springfield branch > so each Friday the Union would grow by 20 or so cars. > As I model the branch in July 1949, the month > before dieselization of Xenia which coincided with my > buddy's junior high rail fanning I was treated to a > vivid description of the additional cars as usually a > handful of some older heavyweight baggage cars but > most were troop sleepers converted from X-3+ class > round top boxes that retained the end doors and > passenger truck but had the porthole windows blanked > out and box car sliding side doors re-installed. > > I'd like to model this in HO. I need some > recommendations on modeling the Pacifics, Bowser vs. > Bachman, on kits for the heavyweight coach, sleeper > and baggage car and the best way to model the ex-troop > sleepers. > > Thanx in advance, > > Tom V. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 10:15:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] bowser repowering In a message dated 1/14/02 8:50:42 AM Central Standard Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << I hope I wasn't one of the negative quotes. >> I know I wasn't. I have an M1 with helix humper and will do a K4 and bought the T1 kit as well. The only one installed, the M1, runs smooth as glass. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: [PRR] Congo cars Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 10:31:48 -0600 A week or so ago someone asked for the cars names and numbers for these >trains. > >Lightweight Budd Cars for the Congo and Senator (Spring '92 Keystone) > >Parlor Lounge Observation > >Benjamin Franklin (7126) Senator >Martha Washington (7127) " >George Washington (7128) Congo >Alexander Hamilton (7129) " > >Parlor - 29 seat, 1 drawing room - All cars used on either Congo or >Senator > >Casmir Pulaski (7130) >General Lafayette (7131) >Henry Knox (7132) >Johan Printz (7133) >Johns Hopkins (7134) >Leonard Calvert (7135) >Robert Morris (7136) >William Penn (7137) >Baron Dekalb (7138) >Henry Hudson (7139) >Miles Standish (7140) >Paul Revere (7141) >Roger Williams (7142) >Molly Pitcher (7143) >Nathan Hale (7144) >Betsy Ross (7145) > >Conference-Parlor > >Mathias W. Baldwin (7146) Congo >Thomas A. Edison (7147) " > >60 seat coach with 14 seat lounge for both trains (1568 - 1599) >coffee shop tavern (Congo 1153-1154) (Senator 1155-1156) >48 seat diner for Senator (4524,4525) >68 seat diner with kitchen lounge for Congo (4624+4625, 4626+4627) > >Heavyweight standbys >30 seat-1drawing room parlor >John Hancock >Robert Livingston >D78R diner >1157,1158 > >Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 11:36:33 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Re: FWD: RE: [STMFC] Re: Peacock's Theorem and Hom's Schuyler G Larrabee wrote: >BTW, all you can find in Sodus Point is a blank space through town, the >roundhouse (VERY short stalls) and the edge of the turntable, which is >practically under the swing of the roundhouse doors and very small. The turntable was too short to turn I1s with a 130F82 tender so the lead rails were cut back and extesions added to the rails on the turntable! An excellent photo of this in the Elmira branch book. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: [PRR] Blue engines next to a K4. Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 13:26:11 -0500 Okay, this is not Pennsy, per se, but a fellow SPF posed the question, and these B&O engines were seen on the same or closely parallel tracks with Pennsy steam in Washington, D.C. Baltimore, and other spots west of the mountains. These "modernized" B&O P7 Pacifics had lagged, or covered/insulated smokeboxes, and partially lagged fireboxes, so the rather smooth smokebox and firebox also were painted Royal Blue. The smokebox front, and exposed areas of the firebox sides, were given the silver-grey appearing oil and graphite mixture. Toward the end of steam, they got kinda grungy and the blue was hard to tell from the black freight fleet. Andrew Harmantas, SPF from near C&O Milepost FM Zero. > >The B&O P7 I saw at Benwood, WV, in August 1957 was painted Royal Blue, all >over, wheels, siderods, boiler, trucks, etc. The paint had peeled and >burned somewhat on the smokebox and firebox. It had also been renumbered >from the 5300-series to the 100-series. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Colman Gerald Subject: [PRR] Decals Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 14:07:13 -0500 This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C19D2E.ACE4B250 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Does anybody know of any decals available that would do the "Fleet of Modernism" stripes, lettering and 2-tone paint scheme for the '38 Fleet-of-Modernism passenger cars? I have heard of Pennsy Research but don't know were I can obtain a set, their quality, and how close they are to prototype. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jerry Colman ------_=_NextPart_001_01C19D2E.ACE4B250 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Decals

Does anybody know of any decals available that would = do the "Fleet of Modernism" stripes, lettering and 2-tone = paint scheme for the '38 Fleet-of-Modernism passenger cars?  I = have heard of Pennsy Research but don't know were I can obtain a set, = their quality, and how close they are to prototype.  Any info = would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Jerry Colman

------_=_NextPart_001_01C19D2E.ACE4B250-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 14:40:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Decals From: Jerry Britton On 1/14/02 2:07 PM, Colman Gerald (ColmanG@tce.com) wrote: > Does anybody know of any decals available that would do the "Fleet of > Modernism" stripes, lettering and 2-tone paint scheme for the '38 > Fleet-of-Modernism passenger cars? I have heard of Pennsy Research but don't > know were I can obtain a set, their quality, and how close they are to > prototype. Any info would be greatly appreciated. > Middle Division Decals completed these about a year ago, I believe, in HO scale. They sell them at the PRRT&HS convention. Other than that, MDD is hard to reach. Semi-Related: East Wind Manufacturing is working on an N scale Futura lettering set. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] RWET table, PRR Covered hoppers, as of Jan 2002 Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 15:21:16 -0500 Rick, I called on Baugh Chemical for the PRR in Baltimore in 1965 and 1966. During that time it was bought by Kerr-McGee. There were no covered hoppers assigned to Baugh. The cars marked "Return to Clinton St." were for Allied Chemical, which was not my account. Several miles and a lot of street running separated Clinton Street station from Canton. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Cc: "Steve Johnson" ; Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 12:27 AM Subject: [PRR] RWET table, PRR Covered hoppers, as of Jan 2002 > Greetings listers, > > Been busy studying pictures of PRR covered hoppers over the holidays, > preparing for the lettering article to come in the Keystone. Some of the > offline points probably need the attention of experts on the GN, L&N, and > Milwaukee Road. Our table of "return when empty" stencils has grown somewhat: > > City State Line Stencil Commodity Loading customer > 59th Street Chicago IL Panhandle Line Return when empty to PRR 59th St. > Chicago Ill. > Akron OH CA&C Br. When empty return to Akron OH > Baltimore MD Canton Br. Return when empty to Clinton St. Baltimore Md. > fertilizer Baugh Chemical (later Lebanon > Barberton OH CA&C Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Barberton Ohio > Bellefonte PA Bald Eagle Br. Return Empty/to Bellefonte PA/PRR crushed > limestone multiple stone companies > Buffalo NY Buffalo Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Buffalo NY Flour > Cape May NJ Cape May Br. P-RSL Return when empty to Cape May NJ PRR > Dolomite Harbison-Walker Magnacite > Cincinnati OH Cincinnati District Return when empty to/Cincinnati Ohio > Cincinnati (B&O) OH B&O When empty return to B&O Cincinnati Ohio > Circleville OH C&MV Return when empty to PRR Circleville Ohio > Detroit MI Toledo Div Return Empty/to PRR/Detroit MI > E. Fultonham OH Fultonham Spur, Zanesv Br Return when/empty to PRR/E. > Fultonham Ohio Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. > Frankfort IN I&F Branch Return when empty to PRR Frankfort Ind. > Frazer PA Philadelphia Div. Return when empty to PRR Frazer Pa. > Gibsonburg OH Toledo Div Dolomite > Glassboro NJ P-RSL Glass sand > Grand Forks ND GN RR or NP RR Flour North Dakota Mill & Elevator > Indianapolis IN Indianapolis Div. Return when empty to PRR Indianapolis > Ind. > Kenny Yard PA Monongahela Branch Return when empty to PRR Kenny Pa. > Kiskeminetas Jct PA Conemaugh Div Return when/empty to > PRR/Kiskeminetas/Junction PA > Lake City MN MILW Flour Tennant & Hoyt Milling (Golden Loaf) > Logansport IN Logansport Div Return when empty to PRR Logansport Ind. > Cement Lo Cement > Mapleton PA Middle Division Main Return when/empty to PRR/Mapleton Pa. > Glass sand Pennsylvania Glass Sand > Marcus Hook PA Maryland Div. Return when empty to PRR Marcus Hook Pa. > Martins Creek PA Bel Del Branch Return when/empty to PRR/Martins > Creek/Pa. > McVeytown PA Middle Division Main Glass sand Pennsylvania Glass > Sand > Millville NJ P-RSL When empty return to/PRSL Millville/NJ Glass sand > Wheaton Glass > Minneapolis MN MILW When empty return to/Minneapolis Minn/Milwaukee Road > Flour International Milling > Mt. Clemens MI GTW RR Return when empty to Mt. ???? Mich. > Mt. Vernon OH Akron Br. Millwood Sand (on the Howard Br.) Sand > Millwood Sand (on the Howard Br.) > N. Claymont DE Maryland Div. Return when empty to N. Claymont DE > Paris IL Peoria Br. Return when empty to/PRR Paris Ill. > Philadelphia PA Philadelphia Terminal Div. Return when empty to/PRR > North Stanley Yard/Philad > Portage WI MILW Return when empty/to CMStP&P R.R./Portage Wisc > S. Kearny NJ New York Div. Return when empty to/PRR South Kearny, N.J. > Shackamaxon PA Philadelphia Terminal Div. When empty return to PRR > Shackamaxon Station Philadelphia Pa. > Speeds IN Louisville Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Speeds Ind Cement > Louisville Cement Company > Toledo OH Toledo Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Toledo Ohio/district > Trenton MI Detroit & Toledo Shore Line Return when empty to DTSL/Trenton > Mich. > Watkins Glen NY Elmira Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Watkins Glen N.Y. > Whitlock TN L&N RR Return when/empty to L&N/Whitlock, Tenn. > Winona MN Milwaukee Road Flour Bay State Milling > York PA Maryland Div. Return when/empty to PRR/York Pa. > > As before, I'm asking for review and factual information on these assignment > points, such as known shippers and commodities that justified the assignment > of PRR covered hoppers. > > As you all saw, the Frankfort IN thread got out of hand, with all kinds of > guessing going on -- none of which can be used in a hardboiled, factual > environment like the Keystone. I'll leave you with this last thought on the > subject -- a town with a PRR-served industry named "Premium Swine" can't be > all bad. > > Rick Tipton > Louisville KY > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 14:36:14 -0600 From: Greg Johnson Subject: [PRR] DCC in Bowser locomotives Has anybody installed DCC decoders in Bowser PRR steamers? What was involved in the installation? Regards, Greg Johnson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 15:45:45 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] DCC in Bowser locomotives >Has anybody installed DCC decoders in Bowser PRR steamers? What was involved >in the installation? Yep, buy a helix humper Seriously, I have not tried with the new DCC compatible DC 71 motor they sell, but both bowser and helix humper need to be electrically isolated to use. HH motors are usually pretty easy to do this with. Watch your stall current with DC 71 motors...you'll need a decoder that can handle them! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] DCC in Bowser locomotives Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 15:51:44 -0600 Stall a Bowser! You must be modeling the Mt Carmel ore run. N Bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." To: Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 3:45 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] DCC in Bowser locomotives > >Has anybody installed DCC decoders in Bowser PRR steamers? What was involved > >in the installation? > > Yep, buy a helix humper > > Seriously, I have not tried with the new DCC compatible DC 71 motor they > sell, but both bowser and helix humper need to be electrically isolated to > use. HH motors are usually pretty easy to do this with. Watch your stall > current with DC 71 motors...you'll need a decoder that can handle them! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 17:39:53 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] DCC in Bowser locomotives Bruce: Yes, I have used one of the new "DCC friendly" motors from Bowser. The make it real simple to isolate the motor from the frame. They do have a high current draw though. You will probably need a 2 amp decoder, even with the newer version of the motor (I am using an older DH83FX). The other alternative would be a can motor such as the helix humper. Jeff ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Huber25@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 18:13:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] bowser repowering I have never heard anything negative about the HH units. They are top quality items. They make a nice engine run very smoothly and quietly. Can't say they improve the pulling power though. With all the weight of the Bowser engines I don't know how you could expect more! Wish my brass pulled that well. LOL Roger ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 19:05:22 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] DCC in Bowser locomotives In a message dated 1/14/02 2:51:35 PM Central Standard Time, gjohnson@unitedvalve.com writes: << Has anybody installed DCC decoders in Bowser PRR steamers? What was involved in the installation? >> Been awhile, but basicly you have to first isolate the motor. I do this by using .005 or .010 styrene as the insulator between motor and mount and using nylon screws. Keep in mind I only did it on one M1 with a helix humper. I also did it on my T1 mechanism, but will revamp it when I substitute the helix humper. In the case of the T1 I also used nylon screws and nuts in the motor tower and a nylon screw to attach the shell (I haven't approached the issue of a better mount to eliminate that unsightly screw). I ran 5 wires (2 light, 2 motor, RH rail) from the loco to the decoder in the tender and used a fiber drawbar (from Bowser) to keep loco and tender isolated (LH rail wire is direct from tender). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 18:51:35 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] DCC in Bowser locomotives From: "William J. Ayers" Greg Yes, I did it to a K-4 with a HH motor, and plan to do the same to the M1a when I finish building it. As others said, this makes it quite simple since it comes DCC compatible. I installed a Digitrax 2 amp decoder in the tender. With the HH motor I am able to get it to crawl very smoothly and it is much quieter than the Pitman motor that comes with it. Bill Ayers > From: Greg Johnson > Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 14:36:14 -0600 > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] DCC in Bowser locomotives > > Has anybody installed DCC decoders in Bowser PRR steamers? What was involved > in the installation? > > Regards, > > Greg Johnson > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 19:11:37 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Decals From: "William J. Ayers" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3093880298_120095_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry, I had a brass 1938 "View" obs painted by a pro and used the Pennsy Research decals. I bought a 10 car set on the used market and they came with the decals. The decals virtually cover the entire side of the car and my painter told me it was quite difficult to do the decals. It required removing all the grab irons and the hand rail on the inside, and resoldering them once the decaling is done. For that reason, he refuses to do any more of the set for me. It looks pretty good except the striping is a bit hard to see, even up close. If you can find some other brand, I would try that before the Pennsy Research. Bill Ayers From: Colman Gerald Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 14:07:13 -0500 To: Prr-Talk Subject: [PRR] Decals Does anybody know of any decals available that would do the "Fleet of Modernism" stripes, lettering and 2-tone paint scheme for the '38 Fleet-of-Modernism passenger cars? I have heard of Pennsy Research but don't know were I can obtain a set, their quality, and how close they are to prototype. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jerry Colman --MS_Mac_OE_3093880298_120095_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] Decals Jerry,

I had a brass 1938 "View" obs painted by a pro and used the Penns= y Research decals. I bought a 10 car set on the used market and they came wi= th the decals. The decals virtually cover the entire side of the car and my = painter told me it was quite difficult to do the decals. It required removin= g all the grab irons and the hand rail on the inside, and resoldering them o= nce the decaling is done. For that reason, he refuses to do any more of the = set for me. It looks pretty good except the striping is a bit hard to see, e= ven up close. If you can find some other brand, I would try that before the = Pennsy Research.

Bill Ayers

From: Colman Gerald <ColmanG@tce.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 14:07:13 -0500
To: Prr-Talk <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Subject: [PRR] Decals



Does anybody know of any decals available that would do the "Fleet of = Modernism" stripes, lettering and 2-tone paint scheme for the '38 Fleet= -of-Modernism passenger cars?  I have heard of Pennsy Research but don'= t know were I can obtain a set, their quality, and how close they are to pro= totype.  Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Jerry Colman

--MS_Mac_OE_3093880298_120095_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mike Morrow" Subject: [PRR] The Pennsy on TV Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 21:10:04 -0500 For those of you who get WHYY-TV in the Philadelphia/Wilmington area, don't forget to watch the PRR Special at 8:00PM on the 15th. Here's the link to their website: http://www.whyy.org/tv12/railroad.html Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mike Morrow" Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2002 21:10:04 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] The Pennsy on TV For those of you who get WHYY-TV in the Philadelphia/Wilmington area, don't forget to watch the PRR Special at 8:00PM on the 15th. Here's the link to their website: http://www.whyy.org/tv12/railroad.html Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Tiny Wireless Camera under $80! Order Now! FREE VCR Commander! Click Here - Only 1 Day Left! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WoOlbB/7.PDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 00:02:29 -0500 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] AHM/IHC/Rivarossi List of Cars- LONG Andy & the other PRR experts on these lists- I have spent the better part of 2 weeks roaming thru all the various e-mail lists , culling all the info I could find about the Rivarossi & IHC cars. I then pulled out all of my Walthers catalogs (back to 1981) to find the correct model numbers. I then "borrowed" Andy Harman's list of model prototypes and added in all the info I had found. Please send in any additional info or additions that any of you are sure of. No guesses, please. I will then compile everything into one list. I started this list for myself because of the mixing up of the different models. Please realize that the Rivarossi models are completely different than the cars marked only IHC. I have cars I bought in 1968 and then filled in the "good" cars as they came out. There are now 15 different groups of cars that have been made. This is the reason there is so much confusion on the lists. If several people contribute to this, we can have a up to date list to end the confusion. Thanks in advance. Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO AHM/Rivarossi- "1920 HW" -1960's thru mid 1980's 1st tooling 633- series has interiors & lights. AHM/Riv. Postal-Baggage-620622 HW Baggage,B-8A,B B&O AHM/Riv Combine-620322-633322 HW Rider car ATSF #2602- AHMRiv. Coach-620522-633522 Pullman, lot 3711 HW Coach-78 seat?? SOU #1367-1424 AHM/Riv. Diner-620422-633422 Pullman 3391 HW Diner ATSF #1456-63 AHM/Riv. Sleeper-620122-633122 Pullman 3410B-2410? HW Sl.12Sec-1Dr PRR AHM/Riv. Obs.-620222-633222 Pullman HW Obs. ATSF #1513-14 AHM/Rivarossi "1920 HW" -Mid 1980's to 1989 1st tooling AHM/Riv RPO-2806 HW RPO, E-7A,B B&O AHM/Riv. Combine-2723 HW Rider ATSF #2602- AHM/Riv. Coach-2738 HW Coach-78 seat ?? SOU AHM/Riv. Diner-2726 Pullman 3391 HW Diner ATSF #1456-63 AHM/Riv Sleeper-2724 Pullman 3410B HW Sl. 12Sec-1Dr PRR AHM/Riv. Dupl. Sl.-2820 Pullman 4029 HW Sl.16Dup."Eventide/Nocturne" PRR AHM/Riv. Obs.-2725 Pullman HW Obs. ATSF #1513-14 IHC/Rivarossi "1920 HW" - 1989-1999 2nd tooling IHC/Riv. Baggage-6567-6596 HW Baggage, B-8A,B B&O IHC/Riv. RPO-6597 HW RPO, E-7A,B B&O IHC/Riv. Combine-6598 HW Rider Car ATSF 2602-08 IHC/Riv. Coach-6599?? HW Coach, 78-seat SR IHC/Riv. Pullman-6612 Pullman HW 12-1 PRR IHC/Riv. Pullman-6046 Pullman HW 12-1 Sleeper PRR IHC/Riv. Dupl. Sl.-6602 Pullman 4029 HW 16 Dup. Sleeper PRR IHC/Riv. Diner-6600 HW Diner, 36 seat ??? IHC/Riv. Obs.-6603 HW 3-2-Obs ??? IHC "1920 HW"- 2001 1st tooling IHC Baggage-49540 HW Baggage ??? IHC RPO-49545 HW RPO ??? IHC Combine-49542 HW Combine ??? IHC Coach-49541 HW Coach, 78-seat ??? IHC Sleeper-49547 Pullman-3410A HW 12-1-Anthony Wayne-#8722 ??? IHC Diner-49543 HW Diner, 36 seat ??? IHC Sleeper-49546 Pullman-3979A HW 8-1-2-Royal Oak-#8610 ??? IHC Obs.-49544 HW 3-2-Obs. ??? AHM/Rivarossi-"1930 LW Streamliners" Smoothsides - 1980's 1st tooling AHM/RIV. Baggage-2824 ACF LW Baggage UP #5711-5745 AHM/RIV. RPO--2741 HW/LW RPO, BM70NB PRR #6518 AHM/RIV. RPO- 2806 HW RPO, E-7A, B B&O AHM/RIV. Coach-2761 LW Coach CN?? AHM/RIV Diner-2816 ACF LW Diner UP #4800-4816 AHM/RIV Dome-2795 ACF/Pullman LW Dome lounge UP # 7000-7009, AHM/RIV Sleeper-2746 ACF Sim.To Pull.4140 LW 10Rmt-6Br PRR"___ Rapids" AHM/RIV. Dup.-2802 Pullman 4066B LW 12DupRmt-5Br PRR, "___Brook" AHM/RIV. Obs.-2745-2747 Pullman 4133 LW 2Mr-1Br-Buf-LngeObs. PRR "___View" IHC/Rivarossi-"1930 LW Streamliners" Smoothsides -1989-1999 2nd tooling IHC/RIV. Baggage-6604 ACF ? LW Baggage UP IHC/RIV. RPO-6605 HW/LW RPO,BM70NB PRR #6518 IHC/RIV. Coach-6606 LW Coach UP IHC/RIV. Diner-6610 ACF ? LW Diner UP IHC/RIV. Sleeper-6616 ACF LW 10-6."Colonial Houses" PRR IHC/RIV. Sleeper-6617 "Sim.To PS 4140 LW 10-6."Imperial Loch" PRR-Interchange paint IHC/RIV. Sleeper-6618 " " LW 10-6."Imperial Park" PRR-Interchange paint IHC/RIV. Sleeper-6619 " " LW 10-6."Buffalo Rapids" PRR-Interchange paint IHC/RIV. Sleeper-6613 " " LW 10-6."Blue Rapids" PRR-Interchange paint IHC/RIV. Obs.-6611 LW 2Mr-1Br-Buf-LngeObs. PRR____"View" IHC/Rivarossi-"1940 Budd Congressionals" Corrugated Sides -1991-1999 1st tooling IHC/Riv. Coach-6731 Pullman 7457 A LW-flute Coach, 56 seat SOU IHC/Riv. Sleeper-6732 Budd 9502,9510 LW-flute 10Rmt-6Br- NYC Hybrid,Valley IHC/Riv. Diner-6730 Budd LW-flute Diner Grill NYC #450-467 IHC/Riv. Pullman-6614 Pullman HW-St.Steel.12-1 PRR IHC/Riv. Coach-6731-1 Pullman 7457 A LW-flute Coach, 56 seat SOU IHC/Riv. Sleeper6732-1 Pullman 4100B LW-flute 10-6-"Lafayette" NYC Hybrid,Valley IHC/Riv. Obs.-6733 Budd LW-flute 4Dr-1Br-Obs Lge. Hybrid IHC/Rivarossi- "1940 Budd Fleet of Modernization" Corrugated Sides -1991-1999 1st tooling IHC/Riv. Coach-6861 Pullman7457 A LW-flute Coach,56 seat-#4010 SOU IHC/Riv. Sleeper-6862 Budd 9502,9510 LW-flute 10Rmt-6Br-#4022 NYC Hybrid, Valley??? IHC/Riv. Diner-6860 Budd LW-flute Diner Grill-#4501 NYC #450-467??? IHC/Riv. Obs.-6863 Budd LW-flute 4Dr-1Br-Obs Lge.#1126 Hybrid IHC/Rivarossi-"1940 LW Smoothsides" "East Wind" -1994-1999 1st tooling IHC/Riv Baggage-5632 ACF LW Baggage UP??? IHC/Riv Coach-5633 LW Coach UP??? IHC/Riv Diner-5631 ACF LW Diner UP??? IHC/Riv Obs.-5634 LW Observation ??? IHC- "Pullman Standard" Corrugated Sides -2000 1st tooling IHC Baggage-47900 LW-flute Bagg-Mail ??? IHC RPO-47905 LW-flute Baggage Mail 60' ??? IHC Combine-47904 LW-flute Combine ??? IHC Coach-47901 LW-flute Coach, 56 seat ??? IHC Sleeper-47906 LW-flute Sleeper ??? IHC Diner-47902 LW-flute Diner Grill ??? IHC Dome-47907 LW-flute Dome Lounge ??? IHC Obs.-47903 LW-flute Obs ??? IHC- "Pullman Standard Fleet of Modernism" Corrugated Sides -2000 1st tooling IHC Baggage-47730 LW-flute Bagg-Mail ??? IHC RPO-47735 LW-flute Baggage Mail 60' ??? IHC Combine-47734 LW-flute Combine ??? IHC Coach-47731 LW-flute Coach ??? IHC Sleeper-47736 LW-flute Sleeper ??? IHC Diner-47732 LW-flute Diner Grill ??? IHC Dome-47737 LW-flute Dome Lounge ??? IHC Obs.-47733 LW-flute 4 Dr-1Br-Obs-Lounge ??? IHC- "Pullman Standard Congressionals" Corrugated Sides -2000 1st tooling IHC Baggage-47740 LW-flute Bagg-Mail ??? IHC RPO-47745 LW-flute Baggage Mail 60' ??? IHC Combine-47744 LW-flute Combine ??? IHC Coach-47741 LW-flute Coach, 56 seat ACL or SAL??? IHC Dup.Sl.-47746 LW-flute Sleeper ??? IHC Diner-47742 LW-flute Diner Grill NYC??? IHC Dome-47747 LW-flute Dome Lounge ??? IHC Obs.-47743 LW-flute 4Dr-1Br-Obs-Lnge RDG-Crusader IHC- "Pullman Standard Smoothsides" -2000 1st tooling IHC. Baggage-48210 LW Baggage ??? IHC. Combine-48214 LW Combine ??? IHC. RPO-48215 LW RPO ??? IHC. Coach-48211 LW Coach ??? IHC. Diner-48212 LW Diner ??? IHC. Dome-48217 LW Dome ??? IHC. Duplex-48216 LW 24Dup.Cross Creek-#8383- B&O?(Hungerford)?? IHC. Obs.-48213 LW Observation ??? IHC- "Pullman Standard Smoothsides" "Eastwind" -2000 1st tooling IHC Baggage-48320 LW Baggage ??? IHC Combine-48324 LW Combine ??? IHC RPO-48325 LW RPO ??? IHC Coach-48321 LW Coach ??? IHC Diner-48322 LW Diner ??? IHC Dome-48327 LW Dome ??? IHC Duplex-48326 LW 24Dup ??? IHC Obs.-48323 LW Observation ??? IHC- "Pullman Standard Smoothsides" "Fleet of Modernism" -2000 1st tooling IHC Baggage-48310 LW Baggage ??? IHC Combine-48314 LW Combine ??? IHC RPO-48315 LW RPO ??? IHC Coach-48311 LW Coach ??? IHC Diner-48312 LW Diner ??? IHC Dome-48317 LW Dome ??? IHC Duplex-48316 LW 24Dup.Rmt. ??? IHC Obs.-48313 LW Observation ??? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 09:23:28 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] bowser repowering Hey Tom, You got a milling machine? I looked at this for the T-1 and you need to mill the driver axle slots to get the NWSL gearbox in. In addition, you need to pull a driver, mount a new axle gear, remount the driver and correctly quarter it (Not hard, but the Bowser 1/8" axle on my T-1 didn't fit the NWSL 1/8" gear cause the axle is knurled...so I'm getting new axles too...) I'm scratchbuilding a new brass rigid chassis for the T-1 to fit all this and mount the motors. I suggest HH motors...at least try one...same cost, and a whole lot less effort! (available through Jerry BTW) Regards Bruce >Gize, > > A while back I inquired about the latest version of >the Helix Humper/Alco Industries/et cetera Bowser >locomotive can motor and fly wheel repower kit. The >reaction was generally negative, I've decided to to >switch the motors and gear boxes on my Bowser I1 >2-10-0 Decapod, H8 2-8-0 Consolidation and E6 4-4-2 >Atlantic with Northwest Short Line parts ala the >Northwest Short Line recommended repower of >MDC-Roundhouse kit locomotives. I've re-geared my MDC >E6 with a 1:42 ( I think I remember) gearbox and my >MDC H8 consolidation with a 1:72 gearbox. Are the >parts the same for re-powering the bowser kits. What >about giving the Decapod freight gearing? > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! >http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 09:33:10 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Bachman K4 was [PRR] Passenger/Mail consist modeling help needed Andrew, Tom, ya'll >If you plan on pulling 20+ cars, you had better look at the Bowser K4. I have one of the new 3rd edition Bachman K4s. It is a nice improvement over the 1st and 2nd editions in boiler detail, and has the same mechanism, AFAIK as the 2nd edition. In my hands it easily pulls 6-8 Bachman cars on level track. I would remind you that even on LEVEL track, real K4s did not pull 20 heavyweight cars...that the whole reason the T1 was built! So if you want to pull that many cars, you're going to need to doublehead your K4s (which is more fun anyway!). Obviously, any kind of grade will require helpers (as did the prototype!) More on the model...as announced, most of the boiler detail is now applied rather than cast on, the paint is somewhat more realistic and the builders plates are nice!. The parting line down the boiler is less obvious (but still there). I haven't had a chance to look at specific details so I can't comment on the appropriateness of these yet. Unfortunately, given the excellent opportunity Botchman had, they are using exactly the same tender as the previous 2 runs, a 110P70, so it is still completely WRONG for this model, so study up on Kris K's article in MM! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] AHM/IHC/Rivarossi List of Cars- LONG Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 10:03:38 -0600 Couple of pointworth mentioning: With respect to the Rivarossi smooth sides, or streamlined 10&6 sleepers and squared end observations, early versions had belt rails below the windows, which I think was PRR practice. Later versions did not. The Rivarossi 10&6 sleeper was built with names for both Huron Rapids (most common) and Catawissa Rapids. There may be others, but I've never seen them. The square end ovservations came in both Mountain and Tower View lettering, with the Mountain View being the more commonly available. -----Original Message----- From: Dr. Edmond L. Freed [mailto:docfoot@bellsouth.net] Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 11:02 PM To: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] AHM/IHC/Rivarossi List of Cars- LONG Andy & the other PRR experts on these lists- I have spent the better part of 2 weeks roaming thru all the various e-mail lists , culling all the info I could find about the Rivarossi & IHC cars. I then pulled out all of my Walthers catalogs (back to 1981) to find the correct model numbers. I then "borrowed" Andy Harman's list of model prototypes and added in all the info I had found. Please send in any additional info or additions that any of you are sure of. No guesses, please. I will then compile everything into one list. I started this list for myself because of the mixing up of the different models. Please realize that the Rivarossi models are completely different than the cars marked only IHC. I have cars I bought in 1968 and then filled in the "good" cars as they came out. There are now 15 different groups of cars that have been made. This is the reason there is so much confusion on the lists. If several people contribute to this, we can have a up to date list to end the confusion. Thanks in advance. Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO AHM/Rivarossi- "1920 HW" -1960's thru mid 1980's 1st tooling 633- series has interiors & lights. AHM/Riv. Postal-Baggage-620622 HW Baggage,B-8A,B B&O AHM/Riv Combine-620322-633322 HW Rider car ATSF #2602- AHMRiv. Coach-620522-633522 Pullman, lot 3711 HW Coach-78 seat?? SOU #1367-1424 AHM/Riv. Diner-620422-633422 Pullman 3391 HW Diner ATSF #1456-63 AHM/Riv. Sleeper-620122-633122 Pullman 3410B-2410? HW Sl.12Sec-1Dr PRR AHM/Riv. Obs.-620222-633222 Pullman HW Obs. ATSF #1513-14 AHM/Rivarossi "1920 HW" -Mid 1980's to 1989 1st tooling AHM/Riv RPO-2806 HW RPO, E-7A,B B&O AHM/Riv. Combine-2723 HW Rider ATSF #2602- AHM/Riv. Coach-2738 HW Coach-78 seat ?? SOU AHM/Riv. Diner-2726 Pullman 3391 HW Diner ATSF #1456-63 AHM/Riv Sleeper-2724 Pullman 3410B HW Sl. 12Sec-1Dr PRR AHM/Riv. Dupl. Sl.-2820 Pullman 4029 HW Sl.16Dup."Eventide/Nocturne" PRR AHM/Riv. Obs.-2725 Pullman HW Obs. ATSF #1513-14 IHC/Rivarossi "1920 HW" - 1989-1999 2nd tooling IHC/Riv. Baggage-6567-6596 HW Baggage, B-8A,B B&O IHC/Riv. RPO-6597 HW RPO, E-7A,B B&O IHC/Riv. Combine-6598 HW Rider Car ATSF 2602-08 IHC/Riv. Coach-6599?? HW Coach, 78-seat SR IHC/Riv. Pullman-6612 Pullman HW 12-1 PRR IHC/Riv. Pullman-6046 Pullman HW 12-1 Sleeper PRR IHC/Riv. Dupl. Sl.-6602 Pullman 4029 HW 16 Dup. Sleeper PRR IHC/Riv. Diner-6600 HW Diner, 36 seat ??? IHC/Riv. Obs.-6603 HW 3-2-Obs ??? IHC "1920 HW"- 2001 1st tooling IHC Baggage-49540 HW Baggage ??? IHC RPO-49545 HW RPO ??? IHC Combine-49542 HW Combine ??? IHC Coach-49541 HW Coach, 78-seat ??? IHC Sleeper-49547 Pullman-3410A HW 12-1-Anthony Wayne-#8722 ??? IHC Diner-49543 HW Diner, 36 seat ??? IHC Sleeper-49546 Pullman-3979A HW 8-1-2-Royal Oak-#8610 ??? IHC Obs.-49544 HW 3-2-Obs. ??? AHM/Rivarossi-"1930 LW Streamliners" Smoothsides - 1980's 1st tooling AHM/RIV. Baggage-2824 ACF LW Baggage UP #5711-5745 AHM/RIV. RPO--2741 HW/LW RPO, BM70NB PRR #6518 AHM/RIV. RPO- 2806 HW RPO, E-7A, B B&O AHM/RIV. Coach-2761 LW Coach CN?? AHM/RIV Diner-2816 ACF LW Diner UP #4800-4816 AHM/RIV Dome-2795 ACF/Pullman LW Dome lounge UP # 7000-7009, AHM/RIV Sleeper-2746 ACF Sim.To Pull.4140 LW 10Rmt-6Br PRR"___ Rapids" AHM/RIV. Dup.-2802 Pullman 4066B LW 12DupRmt-5Br PRR, "___Brook" AHM/RIV. Obs.-2745-2747 Pullman 4133 LW 2Mr-1Br-Buf-LngeObs. PRR "___View" IHC/Rivarossi-"1930 LW Streamliners" Smoothsides -1989-1999 2nd tooling IHC/RIV. Baggage-6604 ACF ? LW Baggage UP IHC/RIV. RPO-6605 HW/LW RPO,BM70NB PRR #6518 IHC/RIV. Coach-6606 LW Coach UP IHC/RIV. Diner-6610 ACF ? LW Diner UP IHC/RIV. Sleeper-6616 ACF LW 10-6."Colonial Houses" PRR IHC/RIV. Sleeper-6617 "Sim.To PS 4140 LW 10-6."Imperial Loch" PRR-Interchange paint IHC/RIV. Sleeper-6618 " " LW 10-6."Imperial Park" PRR-Interchange paint IHC/RIV. Sleeper-6619 " " LW 10-6."Buffalo Rapids" PRR-Interchange paint IHC/RIV. Sleeper-6613 " " LW 10-6."Blue Rapids" PRR-Interchange paint IHC/RIV. Obs.-6611 LW 2Mr-1Br-Buf-LngeObs. PRR____"View" IHC/Rivarossi-"1940 Budd Congressionals" Corrugated Sides -1991-1999 1st tooling IHC/Riv. Coach-6731 Pullman 7457 A LW-flute Coach, 56 seat SOU IHC/Riv. Sleeper-6732 Budd 9502,9510 LW-flute 10Rmt-6Br- NYC Hybrid,Valley IHC/Riv. Diner-6730 Budd LW-flute Diner Grill NYC #450-467 IHC/Riv. Pullman-6614 Pullman HW-St.Steel.12-1 PRR IHC/Riv. Coach-6731-1 Pullman 7457 A LW-flute Coach, 56 seat SOU IHC/Riv. Sleeper6732-1 Pullman 4100B LW-flute 10-6-"Lafayette" NYC Hybrid,Valley IHC/Riv. Obs.-6733 Budd LW-flute 4Dr-1Br-Obs Lge. Hybrid IHC/Rivarossi- "1940 Budd Fleet of Modernization" Corrugated Sides -1991-1999 1st tooling IHC/Riv. Coach-6861 Pullman7457 A LW-flute Coach,56 seat-#4010 SOU IHC/Riv. Sleeper-6862 Budd 9502,9510 LW-flute 10Rmt-6Br-#4022 NYC Hybrid, Valley??? IHC/Riv. Diner-6860 Budd LW-flute Diner Grill-#4501 NYC #450-467??? IHC/Riv. Obs.-6863 Budd LW-flute 4Dr-1Br-Obs Lge.#1126 Hybrid IHC/Rivarossi-"1940 LW Smoothsides" "East Wind" -1994-1999 1st tooling IHC/Riv Baggage-5632 ACF LW Baggage UP??? IHC/Riv Coach-5633 LW Coach UP??? IHC/Riv Diner-5631 ACF LW Diner UP??? IHC/Riv Obs.-5634 LW Observation ??? IHC- "Pullman Standard" Corrugated Sides -2000 1st tooling IHC Baggage-47900 LW-flute Bagg-Mail ??? IHC RPO-47905 LW-flute Baggage Mail 60' ??? IHC Combine-47904 LW-flute Combine ??? IHC Coach-47901 LW-flute Coach, 56 seat ??? IHC Sleeper-47906 LW-flute Sleeper ??? IHC Diner-47902 LW-flute Diner Grill ??? IHC Dome-47907 LW-flute Dome Lounge ??? IHC Obs.-47903 LW-flute Obs ??? IHC- "Pullman Standard Fleet of Modernism" Corrugated Sides -2000 1st tooling IHC Baggage-47730 LW-flute Bagg-Mail ??? IHC RPO-47735 LW-flute Baggage Mail 60' ??? IHC Combine-47734 LW-flute Combine ??? IHC Coach-47731 LW-flute Coach ??? IHC Sleeper-47736 LW-flute Sleeper ??? IHC Diner-47732 LW-flute Diner Grill ??? IHC Dome-47737 LW-flute Dome Lounge ??? IHC Obs.-47733 LW-flute 4 Dr-1Br-Obs-Lounge ??? IHC- "Pullman Standard Congressionals" Corrugated Sides -2000 1st tooling IHC Baggage-47740 LW-flute Bagg-Mail ??? IHC RPO-47745 LW-flute Baggage Mail 60' ??? IHC Combine-47744 LW-flute Combine ??? IHC Coach-47741 LW-flute Coach, 56 seat ACL or SAL??? IHC Dup.Sl.-47746 LW-flute Sleeper ??? IHC Diner-47742 LW-flute Diner Grill NYC??? IHC Dome-47747 LW-flute Dome Lounge ??? IHC Obs.-47743 LW-flute 4Dr-1Br-Obs-Lnge RDG-Crusader IHC- "Pullman Standard Smoothsides" -2000 1st tooling IHC. Baggage-48210 LW Baggage ??? IHC. Combine-48214 LW Combine ??? IHC. RPO-48215 LW RPO ??? IHC. Coach-48211 LW Coach ??? IHC. Diner-48212 LW Diner ??? IHC. Dome-48217 LW Dome ??? IHC. Duplex-48216 LW 24Dup.Cross Creek-#8383- B&O?(Hungerford)?? IHC. Obs.-48213 LW Observation ??? IHC- "Pullman Standard Smoothsides" "Eastwind" -2000 1st tooling IHC Baggage-48320 LW Baggage ??? IHC Combine-48324 LW Combine ??? IHC RPO-48325 LW RPO ??? IHC Coach-48321 LW Coach ??? IHC Diner-48322 LW Diner ??? IHC Dome-48327 LW Dome ??? IHC Duplex-48326 LW 24Dup ??? IHC Obs.-48323 LW Observation ??? IHC- "Pullman Standard Smoothsides" "Fleet of Modernism" -2000 1st tooling IHC Baggage-48310 LW Baggage ??? IHC Combine-48314 LW Combine ??? IHC RPO-48315 LW RPO ??? IHC Coach-48311 LW Coach ??? IHC Diner-48312 LW Diner ??? IHC Dome-48317 LW Dome ??? IHC Duplex-48316 LW 24Dup.Rmt. ??? IHC Obs.-48313 LW Observation ??? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] bowser repowering Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 10:04:56 -0600 This is a problem on a lot of engines with respect to the NWSL gearboxes. -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 9:23 AM To: Tom Vondruska; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] bowser repowering Hey Tom, You got a milling machine? I looked at this for the T-1 and you need to mill the driver axle slots to get the NWSL gearbox in. In addition, you need to pull a driver, mount a new axle gear, remount the driver and correctly quarter it (Not hard, but the Bowser 1/8" axle on my T-1 didn't fit the NWSL 1/8" gear cause the axle is knurled...so I'm getting new axles too...) I'm scratchbuilding a new brass rigid chassis for the T-1 to fit all this and mount the motors. I suggest HH motors...at least try one...same cost, and a whole lot less effort! (available through Jerry BTW) Regards Bruce >Gize, > > A while back I inquired about the latest version of >the Helix Humper/Alco Industries/et cetera Bowser >locomotive can motor and fly wheel repower kit. The >reaction was generally negative, I've decided to to >switch the motors and gear boxes on my Bowser I1 >2-10-0 Decapod, H8 2-8-0 Consolidation and E6 4-4-2 >Atlantic with Northwest Short Line parts ala the >Northwest Short Line recommended repower of >MDC-Roundhouse kit locomotives. I've re-geared my MDC >E6 with a 1:42 ( I think I remember) gearbox and my >MDC H8 consolidation with a 1:72 gearbox. Are the >parts the same for re-powering the bowser kits. What >about giving the Decapod freight gearing? > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! >http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/11/02 Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 12:09:40 -0500 Tom, As promised. I believe these formulae came from a "Keystone" product review article. These colors are as close to what I remember, as any I have ever seen. The following are all Floquil colors. PRR Structure Color - Light 3/4 bottle #110011 Reefer White 6-eye droppers ROOF BROWN 2-eye droppers DEPOT BUFF PRR Structure Color - Dark ROOF BROWN PRR Window Sash Color -Red #110282 WISCONSIN CENTRAL MAROON Please note an "eye dropper" is one squeeze of an normal size eye dropper which results in the tube being about three-quarters full of liquid (paint). This is NOT an exact science. As long as the approximate proportions are kept close the resulting color will look just fine. Good luck. Let me know how it works out. Buzz PRRT&HS #271 -----Original Message----- From: TWRimer@uss.com [mailto:TWRimer@uss.com] Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 11:38 AM To: Burnley, Charles Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/11/02 Thanks so much Buzz. Someone suggested Floquil (or Poly-sacle) "concrete". This seems more gray than I remember. I think of the color as more tan with a touch of gray. At my age though I sure don't wanna trust the old memory. Tom Rimer ----- Forwarded by Thomas W Rimer/Detroit/USX on 01/14/2002 11:35 AM ----- "Burnley, Charles" ectiv.com> cc: Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/11/02 01/14/2002 11:31 AM Tom I believe I have formulas at home for PRR structure colors. They are for Floquil paint and look pretty good. I'll try to remember to look for them tonight and Email you tomorrow. Buzz PRRT&HS #271 -----Original Message----- From: TWRimer@uss.com [mailto:TWRimer@uss.com] Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 6:58 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/11/02 I sent the following on 1/11 but the answer concerned the color of PRR Mof W equipment rather than frame depots. I'll give it another try. ----- Forwarded by Thomas W Rimer/Detroit/USX on 01/14/2002 06:57 AM ----- Thomas W Rimer To: PRR-Talk 01/11/2002 cc: 09:15 AM Subject: Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 01/11/02(Document link: Thomas W Rimer) Does anyone know of a model paint that approximates the tan/gray (kinda mushroom color) that was used on PRR frame depots? It seems that there were two colors used, with one being a pale yellow. Polly-s CSX tan approximates this color quite well. It's the darker color that I'm looking for, and although I can picture the shade, I'd rather not trust my memory and start mixing paint if there is something out there available. Thanks, Tom Rimer twrimer@uss.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 15:33:50 -0500 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PCL] AHM/IHC/Rivarossi List of Cars- LONG Alex- Thanks for your input. Please see my notes following your remarks. I would be pleased to work with you on this project. Eddie- alex@interaccess.com wrote: > Ed, > > I have abstracted the information on Rivarossi-built cars from your email into an > Excel spreadsheet, and printed it out in Adobe PDF form so you can read it even if > you don't have Excel. I think this helps to emphasize what didn't change over the > period Rivarossi was building the cars, as well as what did. When the list is > completed, I would be willing to do such a conversion so it could be posted to a Web > site, as text emails do not lend themselves to transmitting such complex information. > I have lined through data from your message which I think may be in error, and > inserted in bold face data which I am reasonably certain is correct. In particular > > --- the HW baggage car was a late addition to the line Walthers 1980 lists "NEW" AHM HW PRR postal-baggage as 145-620622. There is no PRR 72' RPO listed under either HW or LW cars. However, I did buy two in 1968. > --- I am certain that the coach, sleeper and observation were in the line prior > to 1980 because I own examples. I may be able to find boxes and look up > stock numbers. I believe the baggage car, duplex sleeper and dome were > also in the line but never acquired examples. I also have a HW 70' RPO-combine (#342), a 12-1 sleeper (Logan), a LW 72' baggage car (#2965), a 72' coach (#3940), & an 83' diner (not numbered, reads Diner). I bought all of these seven cars in 1968, (633 series). > --- The fluted side coach is a NYC "Empire State Express" car. Most of the > cars for this train were named for various New York governors, but some > extra coaches carried numbers in the 2564-9 series. Not familiar with NYC cars. My notes were obtained from several on the list who felt it was a SOU car. > --- The fluted side observation car was from the Reading "Crusader". > --- The prototype for both HW and LW smoothside coaches is the subject of > considerable debate, hence I have entered it in red. I have 2 fluted side observation cars, #6733-Congo- George Washington & #6863- FOM #1126. I am not sure of prototype of these. However, I looked at the new IHC #47743. This car has the large bug-eyes that I think the RDG Crusader car had. > > I have not transcribed the data you supplied for cars IHC has imported from China. I > suggest you consider the streamlined cars as "generic" unless a specific prototype is > identified through pictures. Note that the fluted sides and smooth sides have identical > window arrangements, suggesting that IHC was not too careful about prototypes. > One comment is that you have listed separately models differing only in the third and > fourth digits of the stock number, which I think are the same basic model lettered > differently. (E.g., 47900, 47730, 47740). I agree. I have not seen many of these cars. My notes have no proto listings for these cars. The list was made intentionally to have a complete list of all the cars.i.e. Congo., FOM, East Wind, PS cars, Budds, etc. > > The new heavyweight IHC cars were a big disappointment to me. Pre-production > pictures on their website led me to hope for some new prototypes, particularly the 8- > 1-2 sleeper and the 3-2 sleeper observation. Unfortunately the window heights are > seriously wrong (they are OK on the 12-1) and the cars look totally wrong when run > with a Rivarossi car. The coach is awful but some of the head end cars look good. > The diner, combine and 12-1 sleeper are knockoffs of the corresponding Rivarossi > cars. If you publish a "final" tabulation I suggest you designate such improbable cars > differently from those that seem reasonable but whose prototype is in dispute. (E.g., > the Rivarossi coaches) > I agree. > The AHM, IHC and Rivarossi cars were listed and dropped from Walthers several > times. Prior to 1980, ads in "Model Railroader" may be a better indication of what > was available. Magazine ads are often preemptive. I have Walthers catalogs from 1978 to present. Most model number info was taken from them. For example, 1978- no Rivs. were listed at all. 1980- were listed as NEW with the 620 series. 1981- they added 633 series (lit cars). 1982 thru 86- no lists at all. 1987- started new number series, 27 & 28. 1988--added 6567 HW bagg. exp., 1990- added 6046, 12-1 Pullman, & the Congo Budds-6730-33. 1991-added HW 6612 (Lambs Club) & 6614 (Hancock). Also LW 6616 (Colonial House), 6613-6619 (interchange cars), & the FOM Budds (6860-63). 1992- Added LW 1940 East Wind (5631-34) 1994- Same cars but now under IHC label. 1997- 4 car sets only. 2000- Added IHC (Chinese) PS corrugated in PRR, FOM & Congo, & PS smoothsides in PRR, FOM & East Wind. (477 thru 495 series) This is the reason for the confusion. The guys are mixing the cars up due to so many different coaches, obs, etc. > It wouldn't take too much additional work to bring into the picture ConCor and > Walthers plastic cars which made a serious attempt to follow prototypes. The > Athearn HW baggage and RPO also merit mention, even though the others in the > line are seriously shortened. I agree. I apologize to the list for the length of this e-mail, but I felt with all the controversy over these cars, it was important to do. Please keep credible info coming. This could be a major project as Alex suggests. Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 16:16:30 EST Subject: Re: Bachman K4 was [PRR] Passenger/Mail consist modeling help In a message dated 1/15/02 9:38:51 AM Central Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << Unfortunately, given the excellent opportunity Botchman had, they are using exactly the same tender as the previous 2 runs, a 110P70, so it is still completely WRONG for this model, so study up on Kris K's article in MM! >> A ditto on Kris's article, especially on the tender conversion to the 110P75. With about three of the 110P70s lying around in the scrap bin from older locomotives which don't run worth a darn, I have a lot of material to start to emulate Kris. Despite some advice saying they may be too big, I may at least try the Archer rub-on rivets on one tender to see how it looks, rather than use Kris's method. But the article is a real help! I am sure Bruce meant his "COMPLETELY WRONG" comment re the 110P70 to apply to the era from about mid-30's on , as it would have been an appropriate tender before stokers were added, whenever that was. I also may get ambitious and modify the domes per Kris's comments. Didn't realize they were too high. Now, short of a Bowser chassis, if we could only grow the drivers 6 inches. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 16:40:06 EST Subject: [PRR] Building color In a message dated 1/15/02 11:22:22 AM Central Standard Time, Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com writes: << PRR Window Sash Color -Red #110282 WISCONSIN CENTRAL MAROON >> Thanks for that tip! I am surrounded by the stuff here but never thought of trying it. Bob Zoeller Bayside, Wisconsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: Bachman K4 was [PRR] Passenger/Mail consist modeling help Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 21:53:21 +0000 Bruce and the lIst: Was the re-tooled Bachmann K-4 recent? If so, are there any photos on the web if the re-tooled boiler shell? Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana >From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: Bachman K4 was [PRR] Passenger/Mail consist modeling help needed >Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 09:33:10 -0600 > >Andrew, Tom, ya'll > > >If you plan on pulling 20+ cars, you had better look at the Bowser K4. > >I have one of the new 3rd edition Bachman K4s. It is a nice improvement >over the 1st and 2nd editions in boiler detail, and has the same mechanism, >AFAIK as the 2nd edition. In my hands it easily pulls 6-8 Bachman cars on >level track. I would remind you that even on LEVEL track, real K4s did not >pull 20 heavyweight cars...that the whole reason the T1 was built! So if >you want to pull that many cars, you're going to need to doublehead your >K4s (which is more fun anyway!). Obviously, any kind of grade will require >helpers (as did the prototype!) > >More on the model...as announced, most of the boiler detail is now applied >rather than cast on, the paint is somewhat more realistic and the builders >plates are nice!. The parting line down the boiler is less obvious (but >still there). I haven't had a chance to look at specific details so I can't >comment on the appropriateness of these yet. Unfortunately, given the >excellent opportunity Botchman had, they are using exactly the same tender >as the previous 2 runs, a 110P70, so it is still completely WRONG for this >model, so study up on Kris K's article in MM! > >Happy Rails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin >Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 16:06:28 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: Bachman K4 was [PRR] Passenger/Mail consist modeling help >I am sure Bruce >meant his "COMPLETELY WRONG" comment re the 110P70 to apply to the era from >about mid-30's on , as it would have been an appropriate tender before >stokers were added, whenever that was. People MODEL that era? Actually, its a pretty good model of a 110P70...however attaching it to a loco painted in the later '30s scheme...I sure wish we had some other choices! That said, I will probably attach a Railworks 250P75 behind mine, further reducing its pulling capacity to a couple of X29 express cars! Oops..I forgot...I was going to stick that tender behind an M1 and now that we might get one in plastic, that looks particularly interesting! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 17:06:28 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Urgent Request for Steam Loco Paint Info From: Jerry Britton I've got an urgent request for painting info for a post-war B-28s. I'm about to hit the books myself, but the answer is needed no later than first thing tomorrow, so I've been asked to float this across the list. Regarding the USRA 0-6-0, PRR class B28s: 1) What was the background color on the front number plate, red or black? 2) What was the trim color on the number plate, buff or polished brass? 3) Was the inside of the bell painted? Apparently some were painted red. 4) Was the bell itself painted black or left polished brass? Thanks, I -- and others! -- will appreciate your quick response! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 16:18:58 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: Bachman K4 was [PRR] Passenger/Mail consist modeling help >Bruce and the lIst: > >Was the re-tooled Bachmann K-4 recent? If so, are there any photos on the >web if the re-tooled boiler shell? Just released from to the dealers...all verrrrry quiet really ;^\ Try Walthers: http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/160-84113 the numbers offered are 5448 & 5475, which from a quick read of loco assignments were both assigned to the Columbus Division circa 1944. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 17:56:09 EST Subject: Re: Bachman K4 was [PRR] Passenger/Mail consist modeling help In a message dated 01/15/2002 4:25:49 PM Central Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << Bruce and the lIst: > >Was the re-tooled Bachmann K-4 recent? If so, are there any photos on the >web if the re-tooled boiler shell? Just released from to the dealers...all verrrrry quiet really ;^\ >> Guess I'll have to take a closer look at my 5448. It seems to pull just a little better but I didn't notice any new tooling. Unfortunately, it is at the club right now. Mine was on backorder since July on our Christmas early buy at the hobby shop where I work. Arrived about a week before Christmas. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 18:56:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Urgent Request for Steam Loco Paint Info Jerry, Black, Buff, No and No. Gotta run. Train Club night....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: [PRR] PRR TV Presentation Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 02:23:40 +0000 I've just come away from my Tv where I watched the PRR TV Presentation over WHYY. As far as I'm concerned it was one of the best history-oriented progams I have ever seen on Public Television. All who had a part in creating and contributing to this production are to be commended for a sensitive and informative portrayal of how it was. I'm certain that there will be plenty of nit-pickers who will delight in exhibiting their expertise, but all that will be unimportant when we reflect on the positive image of the Pennsy that this film gives to the vast non-railroading public. Now - it's our job to see that more and more of that public are encouraged to see it! Thank you again to all who participated in the project. - HANK ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 21:31:58 -0500 From: prrbill Subject: [PRR] WHYY PRR special It makes it extra special when we know so many who gave their time and energy to help make the program come alive. So to Dan Cupper, Bob Watson, Chris Baer, Frank Tatnall, Phil Ritter and all the rest, thanks so much. With all your knowledge, they could/should have made it a 3 hour special! To those who weren't able to see it, it's a worthwhile purchase when available from the WHYY store. And FYI, the music was composed by my former student, Billy Jolly, who grew up a block away from the Overbrook station. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: Bachman K4 was [PRR] Passenger/Mail consist modeling help Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 21:23:53 -0600 Hi guys--I can't help it--I just have to jump in here. Lets take two steps back from the Bachman K4 tender and look more closely. Kris Kollar did really nice work for his Mainline Modeler articles, but there is only so much you can do to that tender. All the detail and rivet work aside, it just does not have the right lines. Look at the top edge of the sides where it transitions down from the coal bunker sides to the top of the tank. That french curve instead of Pennsy's straight lines into angles spoils the whole thing. And I can't figure out a way to fix it. The result--it just doesn't work! Replace it with Bowser's 130P75, Trainstuff's 90F82 (call it a 90P70 before stokers), or brass, depending on your era. I can overlook the drivers being slightly undersized (weathering helps a lot), and not every train had 14 cars--there were lots with four or five. But not that tender! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] Query re the 110P/75 tender Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 18:17:42 -0000 To all Pennsy steam era modellers, The perennial topic of a lack of a correct 110P/75 tender in HO scale is having its wicked way with us yet again. Can anyone tell me if any manufacturer is considering making a kit ( resin, cast metal, etched brass, plastic or whatever ) so we can make honest models of our Bachmann wnd Bowser K4s ?? The reason I'm asking is that a friend of mine, Dave Alexander of Alexander Models ( Quality white metal & brass kits ) is looking to new subject material and is considering the US market. We've had a number of replies re possible diesel outline bodies but a few of us over here have the notion that a nice starter might be this tender. We have the promise of drawings etc. so have a reasonable starting point. Of course, if someone else has a kit in the pipeline we'd look elsewhere. But Dave has a lot of experience in manufacturing kits and the standard would be very good. We're probably looking at mixed whitemetal / etched brass construction. What do the list members think? You can see the quality of Alexander Models kits at his new web site: http://www.xclent.clara.net/alexander-models/home.htm Regards, John H. Wright, Washington, England. Web sites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and http://www.xclent.clara.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:51:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Query re the 110P/75 tender John, I just picked up (should be delivered today or tomorrow) a Brass 110P75a tender via the internet. This was one of those great looking models imported by Keystone Replicas during the 1980's. Charlie Horan was involved with that project. I needed a 110P75/110P75a for a Red Ball Loco that was minus a Tender. If you look hard enough like I did, one may pop up. I know Mitchells has one but a little expesive at $199.00. The one I found was only $95.00. There are plenty of Pennsy Class tenders still needed. Trainstuff LLC filled the void with a nice 90F82, which can be back dated to a 90P70? early K4 Tender. That could be your option if you model 1930's and earlier......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Query re the 110P/75 tender Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 13:56:29 -0500 John, I don't know about the others, but I for one would love to have an ACCURATE K4s Tender, as well as most of the other classes as well (for the H9s, H10s, G5s, E6s, L1s, I1s, etc.). Pennsy had such a mix of tenders on different locomotives in later years, a variety of classes would make duplicating your specific favorite engine/tender easy and interesting. Go for it!! Buzz PRRT&HS #271 -----Original Message----- From: John H. Wright [mailto:johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 1:18 PM To: PRR Talk Cc: PRR - Modeling; PRR - Fax; aidrian bridgeman-sutton; Gary Mittner; ian clasper; ian clasper; ian clasper; jbreon; John Pearson; kkollar@cplx.net; TGREGMRTN@aol.com; Tom Hayden; Tom Hayden; W. Terry Stuart Subject: [PRR] Query re the 110P/75 tender To all Pennsy steam era modellers, The perennial topic of a lack of a correct 110P/75 tender in HO scale is having its wicked way with us yet again. Can anyone tell me if any manufacturer is considering making a kit ( resin, cast metal, etched brass, plastic or whatever ) so we can make honest models of our Bachmann wnd Bowser K4s ?? The reason I'm asking is that a friend of mine, Dave Alexander of Alexander Models ( Quality white metal & brass kits ) is looking to new subject material and is considering the US market. We've had a number of replies re possible diesel outline bodies but a few of us over here have the notion that a nice starter might be this tender. We have the promise of drawings etc. so have a reasonable starting point. Of course, if someone else has a kit in the pipeline we'd look elsewhere. But Dave has a lot of experience in manufacturing kits and the standard would be very good. We're probably looking at mixed whitemetal / etched brass construction. What do the list members think? You can see the quality of Alexander Models kits at his new web site: http://www.xclent.clara.net/alexander-models/home.htm Regards, John H. Wright, Washington, England. Web sites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and http://www.xclent.clara.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:38:55 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PCL] Plastic vs Brass Andy, That's great news. I guess I can be patient, at least until tomorrow ;-) It sounds like a winning marketing strategy. These sets would be quite unlike those offered by Rivarossi. Those are merely "one-of-each" and leave the owner with a very inappropriate train. With the Walthers scheme, I could buy one Congressional Set and make the train as long as I wished with the addition sufficient of coaches and parlors. BTW The Congo special cars set would need the 7 room parlor, the observation, a two-unit diner, and the coffee shop cars. A Senator set would have just a single unit diner, and the Obs. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Andy Harman wrote: > At 10:09 AM 01/16/2002 -0800, you wrote: > >With the quality of the new "China" made plastic models, I see in the future > >more specific cars/trains done in ready to run plastic. I have 0ver 40 > >Santa Fe brass passenger cars, but I really would be interested in seeing a > >complete proper Santa Fe train done in this new style. > > This is part of Walthers long-term plan, to offer a name train set on a > limited run basis. The special cars needed to fill out the train would be > only available with the set. I get the feeling this is still several years > away, while Walthers expands their basic line. Example would be the PRR > Congressional - not sure the consist of the train, but Walthers is already > doing the parlor car in the regular line, and if they went on to do the > coach, then they might do the observation and the 7-drawing room cars as > "set only" editions. > . . . > > Andy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PCL] Plastic vs Brass Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:11:44 -0600 If the windows don't bother you it is fairly easy to convert the Rivarossi boat tail into a square end obs. You cut off the non-corrugated roof and the floor. Then you cut out the rear door and make a wood block to fit inside with the proper contour. Heat the side wings that are left until you can wrap them around the block. the small windows on either side of the door opening wind up perfectly loacted for the rear small windows. Fabricate a new door with a frame and a new roof using plastic body putty and you have a pretty good approximation. I didn't even have to touch up the silver paint except for the new door and only had to extend the Tuscan letterboard around the back end. I have a slight bobble in one window from heating the plastic too hot but it isn't hard to do and even at rest the mistakes have to be sought out. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" To: Cc: "PRR-Talk" ; Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 2:38 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: [PCL] Plastic vs Brass > Andy, > > That's great news. I guess I can be patient, at least until tomorrow ;-) It > sounds like a winning marketing strategy. These sets would be quite unlike those > offered by Rivarossi. Those are merely "one-of-each" and leave the owner with a > very inappropriate train. With the Walthers scheme, I could buy one > Congressional Set and make the train as long as I wished with the addition > sufficient of coaches and parlors. > > BTW The Congo special cars set would need the 7 room parlor, the observation, a > two-unit diner, and the coffee shop cars. A Senator set would have just a single > unit diner, and the Obs. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > Andy Harman wrote: > > > At 10:09 AM 01/16/2002 -0800, you wrote: > > >With the quality of the new "China" made plastic models, I see in the future > > >more specific cars/trains done in ready to run plastic. I have 0ver 40 > > >Santa Fe brass passenger cars, but I really would be interested in seeing a > > >complete proper Santa Fe train done in this new style. > > > > This is part of Walthers long-term plan, to offer a name train set on a > > limited run basis. The special cars needed to fill out the train would be > > only available with the set. I get the feeling this is still several years > > away, while Walthers expands their basic line. Example would be the PRR > > Congressional - not sure the consist of the train, but Walthers is already > > doing the parlor car in the regular line, and if they went on to do the > > coach, then they might do the observation and the 7-drawing room cars as > > "set only" editions. > > . . . > > > > Andy > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PCL] Plastic vs Brass Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:31:18 -0500 Norm, Sounds like a great project. What did you use to heat the plastic sides? Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----- Original Message ----- From: Norm Bell To: Prr-Talk ; Andrew S. Miller Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 4:11 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PCL] Plastic vs Brass > If the windows don't bother you it is fairly easy to convert the Rivarossi > boat tail into a square end obs. You cut off the non-corrugated roof and > the floor. Then you cut out the rear door and make a wood block to fit > inside with the proper contour. Heat the side wings that are left until you > can wrap them around the block. the small windows on either side of the > door opening wind up perfectly loacted for the rear small windows. > Fabricate a new door with a frame and a new roof using plastic body putty > and you have a pretty good approximation. I didn't even have to touch up > the silver paint except for the new door and only had to extend the Tuscan > letterboard around the back end. I have a slight bobble in one window from > heating the plastic too hot but it isn't hard to do and even at rest the > mistakes have to be sought out. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PCL] Plastic vs Brass Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:39:27 -0600 You need a fairly heavy wattage (250-300) light bulb or floodlight bulb (preferred and what I used) and a good pair of heat resistant gloves. I had a pair of smooth surfaced leather work gloves that were fine. Hold the car close to the lamp and check often until the wing starts to bend. Before I do the next one I will practice with some scrap styrene first because the sides are close to an 1/8" thick as I remember and if gotten too hot get rubbery and hard to control until they cool down. There are two bends that need to be done. One straightens out the long transition curve of the boat tail and the second puts the ninety degree bend for the end in the car. You just push the wood block toward the rear end as the sides heat until it is positioned correctly ( a fairly easy eyeball operation). There is a window that is fairly large regarding temperture. Somwhere in the 300 to 350 degree range I would suspect but don't have any firm numbers. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" To: "Norm Bell" ; "Prr-Talk" ; "Andrew S. Miller" Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 3:31 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PCL] Plastic vs Brass > Norm, > > Sounds like a great project. What did you use to heat the plastic sides? > > Dennis > mailto: dennis@onerrave.com > > D & S HOBBIES > http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model > railroad items > 34 Main Street > South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Norm Bell > To: Prr-Talk ; Andrew S. Miller > Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 4:11 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PCL] Plastic vs Brass > > > > If the windows don't bother you it is fairly easy to convert the Rivarossi > > boat tail into a square end obs. You cut off the non-corrugated roof and > > the floor. Then you cut out the rear door and make a wood block to fit > > inside with the proper contour. Heat the side wings that are left until > you > > can wrap them around the block. the small windows on either side of the > > door opening wind up perfectly loacted for the rear small windows. > > Fabricate a new door with a frame and a new roof using plastic body putty > > and you have a pretty good approximation. I didn't even have to touch up > > the silver paint except for the new door and only had to extend the Tuscan > > letterboard around the back end. I have a slight bobble in one window > from > > heating the plastic too hot but it isn't hard to do and even at rest the > > mistakes have to be sought out. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: [PCL] Plastic vs Brass Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:32:10 -0600 Be very careful when heating and distorting plastic. There are trace additives added to enhance the properties of plastics. Upon heating, some of these components decompose into very toxic materials. -----Original Message----- From: Dennis @ D & S Hobbies [mailto:dennis@onerrave.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 3:31 PM To: Norm Bell; Prr-Talk; Andrew S. Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PCL] Plastic vs Brass Norm, Sounds like a great project. What did you use to heat the plastic sides? Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----- Original Message ----- From: Norm Bell To: Prr-Talk ; Andrew S. Miller Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 4:11 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PCL] Plastic vs Brass > If the windows don't bother you it is fairly easy to convert the Rivarossi > boat tail into a square end obs. You cut off the non-corrugated roof and > the floor. Then you cut out the rear door and make a wood block to fit > inside with the proper contour. Heat the side wings that are left until you > can wrap them around the block. the small windows on either side of the > door opening wind up perfectly loacted for the rear small windows. > Fabricate a new door with a frame and a new roof using plastic body putty > and you have a pretty good approximation. I didn't even have to touch up > the silver paint except for the new door and only had to extend the Tuscan > letterboard around the back end. I have a slight bobble in one window from > heating the plastic too hot but it isn't hard to do and even at rest the > mistakes have to be sought out. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 20:58:45 -0800 Subject: [PRR] PRR-LV handoff Hi everyone, A while back we were discussing the exact details regarding the hand-off of New York bound Lehigh Valley trains on the PRR. I don't remember if this was covered, but there is an image of an LV steam loco at the "new" (1935?) Penn Station/Newark in the book "Under Pennsy Wires" by Carleton. For those of you without a copy of this book, an image of this page conveniently shows up at the following ebay url. Look quick, no telling how long the image will still be present - it's certain to go away one day! http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1060759933 - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: nuts4prr@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 12:55:44 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Elmira Branch Gang, Over the last few months I have been seriously looking at my PRR Models and what I want from them in the future Because of this I have decided to narrow down the time frame and location of my modeling interests. The first decision I made was to narrow the date and to this end I have decided to model the late '63 early '64 period to allow the use of GP30's which are among my favourite diesels. This period also allows me to run most of the other diesels I have in my collection and to get rid of most of my steam. I will keep a K4 and some Passenger cars for a special train. I still have a Q2 for sale if anyone is interested. The next decision I need to make is what location to model. At this time I am leaning towards the Elmira Branch. What I need from all you kind gents is suggestions on alternatives and/or information on the Elmira branch which would help me finalize my choice. What I am looking for is a single track line with heavy freight traffic a lot of which would be coal/ore. I particularly like the joint NYC/PRR coal trains that ran on the Elmira. I will not be building a layout for at least 5 years but I need to start collecting Information now and start planning. Does anyone out there already model the Elmira and would like to correspond? I have the Pennsylvania Railroads Elmira Branch by Bill Caloroso. Are there any other books with info on the Elmira? Thanx in advance, Graeme Nitz An Aussie SPF Now Living in Tulsa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Access Your PC from Anywhere Flexibility and Freedom - Free Download http://us.click.yahoo.com/3njxPB/yakDAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jim Cullen" Subject: [PRR] RPO car question Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 14:23:43 -0500 I'm looking at a couple of RPO car pictures in Volume 2 of the PRR Color Guide on page 28. On each side of the car side doors, there appears to be a "panel" with two vertical rectangles, on inside the other. Anyone know what these are for, or did? Another pictures in the book look like these were paneled over. Also would like to find a picture of PBM-70 car. I seen the diagram and drawing of it, but I was looking for a real picture. Anyone know the location of one? Thanks, Jim Cullen -------------------------------------------- Elizabeth & Austin Divisions of the PRR (n-scale) http://members.tripod.com/jimcullen Jim's Railroad Pictures http://www.geocities.com/jimcullen ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] RPO car question Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 13:32:46 -0600 They are wear pads to prevent or slow down the mail pouch damage when they are caught by the hook. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Cullen" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 1:23 PM Subject: [PRR] RPO car question > > I'm looking at a couple of RPO car pictures in Volume 2 of the PRR Color > Guide on page 28. On each side of the car side doors, there appears to be a > "panel" with two vertical rectangles, on inside the other. Anyone know what > these are for, or did? Another pictures in the book look like these were > paneled over. > > Also would like to find a picture of PBM-70 car. I seen the diagram and > drawing of it, but I was looking for a real picture. Anyone know the > location of one? > > > Thanks, > > Jim Cullen > > -------------------------------------------- > Elizabeth & Austin Divisions of the PRR (n-scale) > http://members.tripod.com/jimcullen > > Jim's Railroad Pictures > http://www.geocities.com/jimcullen > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] RPO car question Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 14:37:06 -0500 Jim, The vertical rectangle panels were "protectors" for when mail bags slammed into the sides when picked up on the fly. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Jim Cullen [mailto:jwcullen@erols.com] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 2:24 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] RPO car question I'm looking at a couple of RPO car pictures in Volume 2 of the PRR Color Guide on page 28. On each side of the car side doors, there appears to be a "panel" with two vertical rectangles, on inside the other. Anyone know what these are for, or did? Another pictures in the book look like these were paneled over. Also would like to find a picture of PBM-70 car. I seen the diagram and drawing of it, but I was looking for a real picture. Anyone know the location of one? Thanks, Jim Cullen -------------------------------------------- Elizabeth & Austin Divisions of the PRR (n-scale) http://members.tripod.com/jimcullen Jim's Railroad Pictures http://www.geocities.com/jimcullen ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 15:56:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-LV handoff Hmm, this rekindles this subject! Undoubtedly LV steam ran through to Manhattan Transfer, until the wires went up; after that time, GG1s would have handled the train to Hunter/NK, no? (In the picture on the Web, it's not clear whether the wires are up; was there a period when the new Newark Penn Station was open, before AC electrification was placed in service and Manhattan Transfer closed?) When LV steam ran through to Manhattan Transfer, where were the LV engines serviced? Did they use PRR facilities? Was the engine switch ever made at any place other than Hunter/NK or Manhattan Transfer? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-LV handoff Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 16:20:00 -0500 List: I always had the impression that the catenary was up betwwen New York and Philadelphia by 1933, while the new Newark Penn Station was later in the 1930's. But, I wonder, did ALL Lehigh Valley trains change power and go onto Penn Station, New York? Prewar, there may have been local LV trains that originated at Newark with steam power from the PRR station. Does anyone have a Guide from that era? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 3:56 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-LV handoff > Hmm, this rekindles this subject! Undoubtedly LV steam ran > through to Manhattan Transfer, until the wires went up; after that > time, GG1s would have handled the train to Hunter/NK, no? (In the > picture on the Web, it's not clear whether the wires are up; was > there a period when the new Newark Penn Station was open, > before AC electrification was placed in service and Manhattan > Transfer closed?) When LV steam ran through to Manhattan > Transfer, where were the LV engines serviced? Did they use PRR > facilities? Was the engine switch ever made at any place other > than Hunter/NK or Manhattan Transfer? > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-LV handoff Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 15:20:49 -0600 Would it be possible the trains went into the Jersey City station that preceded the tunnels or was that eliminated when the tunnels were built? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" To: ; Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 3:20 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-LV handoff > List: > > I always had the impression that the catenary was up betwwen New York and > Philadelphia by 1933, while the new Newark Penn Station was later in the > 1930's. But, I wonder, did ALL Lehigh Valley trains change power and go onto > Penn Station, New York? Prewar, there may have been local LV trains that > originated at Newark with steam power from the PRR station. Does anyone have > a Guide from that era? > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 3:56 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-LV handoff > > > > Hmm, this rekindles this subject! Undoubtedly LV steam ran > > through to Manhattan Transfer, until the wires went up; after that > > time, GG1s would have handled the train to Hunter/NK, no? (In the > > picture on the Web, it's not clear whether the wires are up; was > > there a period when the new Newark Penn Station was open, > > before AC electrification was placed in service and Manhattan > > Transfer closed?) When LV steam ran through to Manhattan > > Transfer, where were the LV engines serviced? Did they use PRR > > facilities? Was the engine switch ever made at any place other > > than Hunter/NK or Manhattan Transfer? > > > > John Bobsin > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-LV handoff Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 16:37:37 -0500 Good Point...PRR at least was operating passenger trains into Exchange Place until the 1960's. I don't recall LV having any Hudson River passenger terminal by the 1950's. Many Wall Street commuters rode to Exchange Place and took the H&M to the terminal destroyed Sept. 11. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Norm Bell" To: "Prr-Talk" ; "Gregg Mahlkov" Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 4:20 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-LV handoff > Would it be possible the trains went into the Jersey City station that > preceded the tunnels or was that eliminated when the tunnels were built? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gregg Mahlkov" > To: ; > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 3:20 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-LV handoff > > > > List: > > > > I always had the impression that the catenary was up betwwen New York and > > Philadelphia by 1933, while the new Newark Penn Station was later in the > > 1930's. But, I wonder, did ALL Lehigh Valley trains change power and go > onto > > Penn Station, New York? Prewar, there may have been local LV trains that > > originated at Newark with steam power from the PRR station. Does anyone > have > > a Guide from that era? > > > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 3:56 PM > > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-LV handoff > > > > > > > Hmm, this rekindles this subject! Undoubtedly LV steam ran > > > through to Manhattan Transfer, until the wires went up; after that > > > time, GG1s would have handled the train to Hunter/NK, no? (In the > > > picture on the Web, it's not clear whether the wires are up; was > > > there a period when the new Newark Penn Station was open, > > > before AC electrification was placed in service and Manhattan > > > Transfer closed?) When LV steam ran through to Manhattan > > > Transfer, where were the LV engines serviced? Did they use PRR > > > facilities? Was the engine switch ever made at any place other > > > than Hunter/NK or Manhattan Transfer? > > > > > > John Bobsin > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 18:18:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-LV handoff The "end" of the LV seems to have been just north and parallel to the CNJ terminal in Jersey City; I believe I have heard reference to some passenger trains terminating there. Dunno if they had their own ferry service, or what. This is some distance south of the PRR Exchange Place terminal. I imagine trains operating to the old LV terminal would have run via Oak Island and the joint PRR/LV Newark Bay bridge. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Tom Kane Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR-LV handoff Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 15:33:45 -0800 According to "New York Harbor Railroads" pg 56: "The LV RR never has a ferry service for passengers." Thomas M. Kane Consulting Systems Engineer Hitachi Data Systems Phone: 703-481-4273 FAX: 703-471-8348 Email: Tom.Kane@hds.com -----Original Message----- From: bobsin@nac.net [mailto:bobsin@nac.net] Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 6:18 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-LV handoff The "end" of the LV seems to have been just north and parallel to the CNJ terminal in Jersey City; I believe I have heard reference to some passenger trains terminating there. Dunno if they had their own ferry service, or what. This is some distance south of the PRR Exchange Place terminal. I imagine trains operating to the old LV terminal would have run via Oak Island and the joint PRR/LV Newark Bay bridge. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 15:35:27 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] RPO car question (PBM-70) From: "Douglas Nelson" Hi Jim: > Also would like to find a picture of PBM-70 car. I seen the diagram and > drawing of it, but I was looking for a real picture. Anyone know the > location of one? I believe that there were only nine PRR PBM-70's, so photos are not common. There are three photos of PBM-70 cars in the Spring 1993 Keystone issue on RPO cars. I also have an interesting photo of one running in the last car of a 6-car mail and express train, under the wires at Elizabeth but pulled by steam (from an old book called "Railroads of New York"). Lima/Model Power makes a decent N scale version of the car. I added vestibule steps, roof vents, mail hook and diaphragms for a nice model. Doug Nelson. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 16:09:25 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-LV handoff From: "Douglas Nelson" > I don't recall LV having any Hudson River passenger > terminal by the 1950's. I believe that LV shared the CNJ passenger terminal at Jersey City prior to World War I. That is where they continued to have their freight terminal. The LV passenger trains (and B&O trains) were sent into Penn Station by order of the USRA during World War I. After the war, the PRR successfully evicted the B&O, but the LV continued into Penn Station. Doug Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 19:55:42 EST Subject: [PRR] RPO car question The "rectangle within a rectangle" on either side of the RPO door were re-inforcing "striker plates" for the mail mail bag catcher (the hair pin like device - that mounted in the door) - most roads re-inforced this "impact" area - the Pennsy's design, some sort of metal stamping was, I believe, unique Dick Ross Cleveland, ohio ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:14:40 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] RPO car question (PBM-70) 2 PBM-70 cars can be seen in a photo on page 359 of "Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial, Volume 6" by Paul K. Withers. The cars are in a group of seven cars at the 12th St. Shop in Altoona. The date was May 31, 1956 and the cars are probably about to meet their demise. Andy Hart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:14:42 EST Subject: [PRR] RPO car question (PBM-70) In a message dated 01/17/2002 6:05:54 PM Central Standard Time, dougnelson@mindspring.com writes: << I believe that there were only nine PRR PBM-70's, so photos are not common. >> I believe I have seen more than one photo of one in the milk train out of Sunbury---seems to me that the album booklet for one of the sound albums had one, but can't be sure of my memory on that. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] RPO car question Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 20:25:32 -0500 Besides the smash plate, note also that the nearby windows were barred on the outside to protect them from flying mail bags, while the other windows were barred inside to protect them from flying mailbags on the inside. Postal workers were apparently very enthusiastic in their work. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 7:55 PM Subject: [PRR] RPO car question > The "rectangle within a rectangle" on either side of the RPO door were > re-inforcing "striker plates" for the mail mail bag catcher (the hair pin > like device - that mounted in the door) - most roads re-inforced this > "impact" area - the Pennsy's design, some sort of metal stamping was, I > believe, unique > Dick Ross > Cleveland, ohio > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 23:45:42 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Valid BX (express box) X29 numbers Hi Steve, I've been enjoying your pages on PRR passenger headend equipment. I notice in the X29 section, you say: The 1953 OER lists numbers for 2000-2499, 49314-57641, 97949-103324, 566091-574090 Please be aware that the Official Railway Equipment Register (ORER) you're looking at is the freight one, and I'm fairly positive that except for the first grouping, these are revenue freight numbers. In 1953, there were still some groupings of X29 revenue cars left, and I actually recognize the last two groups you've listed. If these cars were passenger equipment, their AAR Mechanical Designation would be "BX", not "XM" For example, The Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment (ORPTE) dated Dec 1, 1965 shows express box listings as follows (I can't prove all these are X29's, but I can say they match known groupings and do have the right inside length -- fairly conclusive, I think): numbers quantity in service, 1965 1800-1999 196 2000-2499 261 4800-4999 199 5200-5399 198 5400-5539 140 6800-6999 199 9450-9459 10 9460-9594 64 9610-9999 222 Penn Central's listing in the March 1969 ORPTE indicates almost all these cars made it into the merger. Of course, none of them were picked up by Amtrak, IIRC. The BX version of the X29 is near and dear to my heart, having been a key player in the massive weekly scheduled carload shipments of magazines from Dayton Ohio printing plants to Post Office distribution centers in places like New York, Boston, Atlanta, Dallas, and Los Angeles. A great deal of this traffic was handled up the elevators of the north stub (express track) of Dayton Union Station and into X29's and baggage cars. Well-known Santa Fe passenger modeler/fan Chuck Hitchcock tracked and modeled some of the same (Dallas and LA) scheduled X29 carloads routed PRR via St Louis and across the Santa Fe through Kansas City. Even in the early 80's, there were still a number of 4-digit PRR X29's left on the property, especially in Fort Wayne IN -- I think they had slipped through the cracks and were being used by car shopmen as mobile storage sheds. One thing we can't get from the ORPTE is, which of these X29's were equipped with 110 volt electric lights inside the roof for unloading (especially at night)? You can recognize these cars because they have a recessed male 110 v plug set into the carside just to the left of the door frame. However, it's obvious that many express X29's were converted from freight service without this feature -- for example, the museum X29 restored at Altoona doesn't have the external plugs. Incidentally, the 1965 ORPTE also describes the X42 cars 2540-2549 as "Postal storage, steel". Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Access Your PC from Anywhere It's Easy. It's Fast. - Free Download http://us.click.yahoo.com/2njxPB/zakDAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 23:45:42 EST Subject: [PRR] Valid BX (express box) X29 numbers Hi Steve, I've been enjoying your pages on PRR passenger headend equipment. I notice in the X29 section, you say: The 1953 OER lists numbers for 2000-2499, 49314-57641, 97949-103324, 566091-574090 Please be aware that the Official Railway Equipment Register (ORER) you're looking at is the freight one, and I'm fairly positive that except for the first grouping, these are revenue freight numbers. In 1953, there were still some groupings of X29 revenue cars left, and I actually recognize the last two groups you've listed. If these cars were passenger equipment, their AAR Mechanical Designation would be "BX", not "XM" For example, The Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment (ORPTE) dated Dec 1, 1965 shows express box listings as follows (I can't prove all these are X29's, but I can say they match known groupings and do have the right inside length -- fairly conclusive, I think): numbers quantity in service, 1965 1800-1999 196 2000-2499 261 4800-4999 199 5200-5399 198 5400-5539 140 6800-6999 199 9450-9459 10 9460-9594 64 9610-9999 222 Penn Central's listing in the March 1969 ORPTE indicates almost all these cars made it into the merger. Of course, none of them were picked up by Amtrak, IIRC. The BX version of the X29 is near and dear to my heart, having been a key player in the massive weekly scheduled carload shipments of magazines from Dayton Ohio printing plants to Post Office distribution centers in places like New York, Boston, Atlanta, Dallas, and Los Angeles. A great deal of this traffic was handled up the elevators of the north stub (express track) of Dayton Union Station and into X29's and baggage cars. Well-known Santa Fe passenger modeler/fan Chuck Hitchcock tracked and modeled some of the same (Dallas and LA) scheduled X29 carloads routed PRR via St Louis and across the Santa Fe through Kansas City. Even in the early 80's, there were still a number of 4-digit PRR X29's left on the property, especially in Fort Wayne IN -- I think they had slipped through the cracks and were being used by car shopmen as mobile storage sheds. One thing we can't get from the ORPTE is, which of these X29's were equipped with 110 volt electric lights inside the roof for unloading (especially at night)? You can recognize these cars because they have a recessed male 110 v plug set into the carside just to the left of the door frame. However, it's obvious that many express X29's were converted from freight service without this feature -- for example, the museum X29 restored at Altoona doesn't have the external plugs. Incidentally, the 1965 ORPTE also describes the X42 cars 2540-2549 as "Postal storage, steel". Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 23:00:26 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Shamokin Branch From: "Douglas Nelson" Can someone tell me about traffic on the Shamokin Branch? I understand there were both coal and ore trains. Which direction did the loads go, from what source and to what destination? Were these loads interchanged with the Lehigh Valley? Thanks for any help. Doug Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Valid BX (express box) X29 numbers Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 07:52:13 -0500 I have a 1953 Passenger Equipment Register and it lists only one grouping of X29's in express service, class BX 2000-2499 with 493 cars of the series in service at that time. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: RickTipton@aol.com To: steve.sandifer@swcentral.org ; PennsyWest@egroups.com ; PRR@egroups.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Cc: kwmcelre@crnotes.collins.rockwell.com Date: Thursday, January 17, 2002 11:52 PM Subject: [PRR] Valid BX (express box) X29 numbers >Hi Steve, >I've been enjoying your pages on PRR passenger headend equipment. I notice >in the X29 section, you say: > >The 1953 OER lists numbers for 2000-2499, 49314-57641, 97949-103324, >566091-574090 > >Please be aware that the Official Railway Equipment Register (ORER) you're >looking at is the freight one, and I'm fairly positive that except for the >first grouping, these are revenue freight numbers. In 1953, there were still >some groupings of X29 revenue cars left, and I actually recognize the last >two groups you've listed. If these cars were passenger equipment, their AAR >Mechanical Designation would be "BX", not "XM" > >For example, The Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment (ORPTE) dated >Dec 1, 1965 shows express box listings as follows (I can't prove all these >are X29's, but I can say they match known groupings and do have the right >inside length -- fairly conclusive, I think): > >numbers quantity in service, 1965 > >1800-1999 196 >2000-2499 261 >4800-4999 199 >5200-5399 198 >5400-5539 140 >6800-6999 199 >9450-9459 10 >9460-9594 64 >9610-9999 222 > >Penn Central's listing in the March 1969 ORPTE indicates almost all these >cars made it into the merger. Of course, none of them were picked up by >Amtrak, IIRC. > >The BX version of the X29 is near and dear to my heart, having been a key >player in the massive weekly scheduled carload shipments of magazines from >Dayton Ohio printing plants to Post Office distribution centers in places >like New York, Boston, Atlanta, Dallas, and Los Angeles. A great deal of >this traffic was handled up the elevators of the north stub (express track) >of Dayton Union Station and into X29's and baggage cars. Well-known Santa Fe >passenger modeler/fan Chuck Hitchcock tracked and modeled some of the same >(Dallas and LA) scheduled X29 carloads routed PRR via St Louis and across the >Santa Fe through Kansas City. > >Even in the early 80's, there were still a number of 4-digit PRR X29's left >on the property, especially in Fort Wayne IN -- I think they had slipped >through the cracks and were being used by car shopmen as mobile storage sheds. > >One thing we can't get from the ORPTE is, which of these X29's were equipped >with 110 volt electric lights inside the roof for unloading (especially at >night)? You can recognize these cars because they have a recessed male 110 v >plug set into the carside just to the left of the door frame. However, it's >obvious that many express X29's were converted from freight service without >this feature -- for example, the museum X29 restored at Altoona doesn't have >the external plugs. > >Incidentally, the 1965 ORPTE also describes the X42 cars 2540-2549 as "Postal >storage, steel". > >Rick Tipton >Louisville KY >Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:17:03 -0500 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Shamokin Branch Iron ore flowed from west to east and was handed over to the LV at Mt. Carmel. I do not recall the start date for this service, but the ore trains died out after the opening of the St. Lawrence Seaway. Vagel Keller --On Thursday, January 17, 2002 11:00 PM -0800 Douglas Nelson wrote: > Can someone tell me about traffic on the Shamokin Branch? I understand > there were both coal and ore trains. Which direction did the loads go, > from what source and to what destination? Were these loads interchanged > with the Lehigh Valley? > > Thanks for any help. > > Doug Nelson > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Shamokin Branch Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:08:49 -0600 What hasn't been said is that the run from Northumbeland or Sunbury to Mt. Carmel was brutal uphill running all the way. Two I'1s on the front and two more on the rear was standard. If one failed the train stopped immediately. Curves so tight pictures show only the lead engine because it blocks the second one completely. There are several pictures in Pennsy Power 1. I believe that sharks took over after the I1's. I wonder why they never tried the Centipedes there? Was the curvature too tight for them? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." To: Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Shamokin Branch > Iron ore flowed from west to east and was handed over to the LV at Mt. > Carmel. I do not recall the start date for this service, but the ore > trains died out after the opening of the St. Lawrence Seaway. > > Vagel Keller > > --On Thursday, January 17, 2002 11:00 PM -0800 Douglas Nelson > wrote: > > > Can someone tell me about traffic on the Shamokin Branch? I understand > > there were both coal and ore trains. Which direction did the loads go, > > from what source and to what destination? Were these loads interchanged > > with the Lehigh Valley? > > > > Thanks for any help. > > > > Doug Nelson > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Shamokin Branch Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 11:35:47 -0500 If you want to see an Ore train in action buy Penn Valley pictures ore train video. When Mr. Weaver's original film use to be shown at the PRRT&HS banquets you realize how the "S" got in SPF. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Norm Bell [mailto:nbell@repco.com] Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 11:09 AM To: Prr-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Shamokin Branch What hasn't been said is that the run from Northumbeland or Sunbury to Mt. Carmel was brutal uphill running all the way. Two I'1s on the front and two more on the rear was standard. If one failed the train stopped immediately. Curves so tight pictures show only the lead engine because it blocks the second one completely. There are several pictures in Pennsy Power 1. I believe that sharks took over after the I1's. I wonder why they never tried the Centipedes there? Was the curvature too tight for them? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." To: Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 9:17 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Shamokin Branch > Iron ore flowed from west to east and was handed over to the LV at Mt. > Carmel. I do not recall the start date for this service, but the ore > trains died out after the opening of the St. Lawrence Seaway. > > Vagel Keller > > --On Thursday, January 17, 2002 11:00 PM -0800 Douglas Nelson > wrote: > > > Can someone tell me about traffic on the Shamokin Branch? I understand > > there were both coal and ore trains. Which direction did the loads go, > > from what source and to what destination? Were these loads interchanged > > with the Lehigh Valley? > > > > Thanks for any help. > > > > Doug Nelson > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 11:39:17 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Shamokin Branch Clarence Weaver's classic movie "The Ore Train" is a wonderful source of information on PRR ore train operation on the Shamokin branch in the early 1950's. It is available on video from Penn Valley Pictures, P.O.Box 429, Sunbury, PA 17801. Many train video dealers probably have it in stock. Andy Hart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 16:16:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Elmira Branch + Hi Guys, For those of you who are doing research on the Elmira Branch, please keep this in mind while doing so. The local RHS owns ex-PRR N5c 477974. This cabin was assigned to this branch (Southport, Candiauga area) for many many years. There are plans in the works to restore this N5c (now in Conrail paint) back to PRR beginning this year. Photos of this Cabin in PRR colors are needed to help with the restoration. I did spot #477974 in Pennsy Steam Years Vol. 1. in a nice color shot from 1956 and a B/W pic in the Elmira Branch Book, also from 1956. Both photos show the cabin still wearing the early, no Keystone, scheme. We are still looking for photos of the cabin in the late 50's, early-mid 60's to see if it ever recieved the Shadow Keystone scheme of 1954 or the Plain Keystone scheme of 1961. (It may have been bypassed these paint jobs being it was located in an out-of-the-way branch) We do know #477974 recieved the Focal Orange scheme of 1965 because there is remnants of orange on the porches. The Railway Historical Chapter is going to take a vote soon to determine which paint scheme the cabin will recieve. Any photo proof may help determine this vote. Again, please keep a look out if any research is done. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 16:16:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Elmira Branch + Hi Guys, For those of you who are doing research on the Elmira Branch, please keep this in mind while doing so. The local RHS owns ex-PRR N5c 477974. This cabin was assigned to this branch (Southport, Candiauga area) for many many years. There are plans in the works to restore this N5c (now in Conrail paint) back to PRR beginning this year. Photos of this Cabin in PRR colors are needed to help with the restoration. I did spot #477974 in Pennsy Steam Years Vol. 1. in a nice color shot from 1956 and a B/W pic in the Elmira Branch Book, also from 1956. Both photos show the cabin still wearing the early, no Keystone, scheme. We are still looking for photos of the cabin in the late 50's, early-mid 60's to see if it ever recieved the Shadow Keystone scheme of 1954 or the Plain Keystone scheme of 1961. (It may have been bypassed these paint jobs being it was located in an out-of-the-way branch) We do know #477974 recieved the Focal Orange scheme of 1965 because there is remnants of orange on the porches. The Railway Historical Chapter is going to take a vote soon to determine which paint scheme the cabin will recieve. Any photo proof may help determine this vote. Again, please keep a look out if any research is done. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Access Your PC from Anywhere Full setup in 2 minutes! - Free Download http://us.click.yahoo.com/wBUyOD/vakDAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 16:31:46 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Signal Drawings In a recent move, I misplaced a copy of a drawing that illustrates all the "stick figure" signal masts on track and interlocking charts. The original came from somewhere on the WEB but I can't seem to remember where. I need this to plan for a layout: i.e., what kinds of signal masts-- position lights, semaphores, or what? Delmarva was always a poor stepchild and the LAST place to get new stuff and the first to get hand-me-downs! Can anyone out there in cyber-land help me out? Jim McDaniel, lost in Delmarva, MBS territory. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] O scale Modelers, Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 16:54:39 -0500 Any O scale modelers out there interested in a Keil-Line Models, Passenger Truck Kit, 41 NP PRR Style. It is new in the bag, never been opened. It is a 4 wheel truck, I would call it commonwealth, but the probably isn't correct. Contact me off list if interested. Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 14:35:31 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Signal Drawings --- "James L. McDaniel" wrote: > In a recent move, I misplaced a copy of a drawing > that illustrates all > the "stick figure" signal masts on track and > interlocking charts. The > original came from somewhere on the WEB but I can't > seem to remember > where. Try Mark Bej's site: broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Signal/Prr_signal_symbols/ There's another one someplace else, but I can't remember where. Someplace in New Jersey, as if that helped. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Signal Drawings Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 18:06:28 -0500 It is possible that the New Jersey Site is our web site. We used to have a Conrail signals section until a hacker trashed the server on our former web hosting service. We plan to eventually redo the site, but it might be a while...... Thank you for your interest. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----- Original Message ----- From: robert netzlof To: ; PRR-FAX Cc: PRR Talk Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 5:35 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Signal Drawings > --- "James L. McDaniel" wrote: > > In a recent move, I misplaced a copy of a drawing > > that illustrates all > > the "stick figure" signal masts on track and > > interlocking charts. The > > original came from somewhere on the WEB but I can't > > seem to remember > > where. > > Try Mark Bej's site: > broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Signal/Prr_signal_symbols/ > > There's another one someplace else, but I can't > remember where. Someplace in New Jersey, as if that > helped. > > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 18:28:21 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Signal Drawings --- robert netzlof wrote: > Try Mark Bej's site: > broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Signal/Prr_signal_symbols/ > > There's another one someplace else, but I can't > remember where. Someplace in New Jersey, as if that > helped. Now I say "Ah, the miracles of modern technology." No, Dave, it wasn't your site. It was: raildata.railfan.net/prr/prrsigsym/symbols1.html which may not be in NJ but certainly talks a lot about NJ. BUT, the PRR symbols page there is identical to the one now on Mark's site. (When I went to Mark's site I thought the symbols page looked different from what I remembered. The old one was, ah, not the best example of the scanning art.) ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail! http://promo.yahoo.com/videomail/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 23:52:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Shamokin Branch --part1_98.2028bed2.297a55a8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, Don Ball's book on the Pennsy 1940- 1950 has several shots of the ore trains running on the Shamokin Br.. Also, Penn Vallley Piictures has a few videos that have the I-1 powered ore trains in action. One of these videos is the Reading Glory in Upstate Pennsylvania where several segments show the leased RDG T-1 4-8-4's hand off the ore train to four I-1's. There is also a healthy section on the runs between Northumberland and Enola. Great shots for observing freight cars in trains such as the "Buffalo Box Car", circa 1956/57. Evan Evan --part1_98.2028bed2.297a55a8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List,

 Don Ball's book on the Pennsy 1940- 1950 has several shots of the ore trains running on the Shamokin Br..  Also,  Penn Vallley Piictures has a few videos that have the I-1 powered ore trains in action.  One of these videos is the Reading Glory in Upstate Pennsylvania where several segments show the leased RDG T-1 4-8-4's hand off the ore train to four I-1's. There is also a healthy section on the runs between Northumberland and Enola.  Great shots for observing freight cars in trains such as the "Buffalo Box Car", circa 1956/57.

Evan

Evan --part1_98.2028bed2.297a55a8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 07:10:51 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Signal Drawings Folks: Thanks for the help. The two (identical) sites are what I need and much better than the one I think I remember which was a scanned blueprint. This will get me started nicely. Jim McDaniel. less lost in Delmarva, with Position lights, it would appear! (One of which still exists at Parksley, but it's dead...I'll get a photo sometime.) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 07:29:18 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Timing of X29 conversions to express boxes. In a message dated 1/18/02 7:44:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, parkvarieties@provide.net writes: << I have a 1953 Passenger Equipment Register and it lists only one grouping of X29's in express service, class BX 2000-2499 with 493 cars of the series in service at that time. Frank Brua >> Frank, Sounds like that was all the X29's that had been converted to express service at that time (what month of 1953?). Interesting that your one 2000-2499 grouping matches Steve's only 4-digit (passenger) group, also from a 1953 listing. Of course, the conversions started because: 1. the X29's were old, but more importantly were shorter inside (8'7") than later boxcars. 2. freight shippers by the 1950's were starting to rebel against loading the X29's -- these customers' normal loading diagrams were for something more like 10' 0'' to 10' 6" inside, and especially with fork lift trucks, loading a car nearly to the roof was more feasible. Assuming shipment under carload freight rates, at 8'7" IH, the X29 was costing the shipper money, both in freight charges per hundredweight, and in loading labor. 3. At the same time, systemwide volume of storage mail and express may have been rising. Certainly, the Pennsy carried large amounts of storage mail and express in and out of New York City. Not only were all-steel cars needed to pass through the tunnels, but they could only be as tall as passenger cars. X29's were an obvious choice for conversion, as they were steel, the right size, and available free in enormous quantity. One issue, however, bothers me. Although numbered and listed as passenger equipment, the X29's were still lettered with freight car stencils (with a couple of obvious additions). The photographic evidence shows large proportions of these cars running in the CK (circle keystone) paint job. However, we know definitely that the CK scheme was obsoleted in early 1954 (if you have the PRR Compendium, you can see the phase SK1b diagram for X29 express cars on page 3). If the passenger train photos are representative, there must have been huge numbers of X29's converted sometime before the first months of 1954 -- but this may not square with your 1953 Passenger Register. It's a puzzle how this worked out -- maybe the express X29 conversions were still being painted in the obsolete CK scheme to some later time -- but this nonstandard lettering behavior would not be typical of Altoona Shops. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Access Your PC from Anywhere It's Easy. It's Fast. - Free Download http://us.click.yahoo.com/2njxPB/zakDAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 07:29:18 EST Subject: [PRR] Timing of X29 conversions to express boxes. In a message dated 1/18/02 7:44:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, parkvarieties@provide.net writes: << I have a 1953 Passenger Equipment Register and it lists only one grouping of X29's in express service, class BX 2000-2499 with 493 cars of the series in service at that time. Frank Brua >> Frank, Sounds like that was all the X29's that had been converted to express service at that time (what month of 1953?). Interesting that your one 2000-2499 grouping matches Steve's only 4-digit (passenger) group, also from a 1953 listing. Of course, the conversions started because: 1. the X29's were old, but more importantly were shorter inside (8'7") than later boxcars. 2. freight shippers by the 1950's were starting to rebel against loading the X29's -- these customers' normal loading diagrams were for something more like 10' 0'' to 10' 6" inside, and especially with fork lift trucks, loading a car nearly to the roof was more feasible. Assuming shipment under carload freight rates, at 8'7" IH, the X29 was costing the shipper money, both in freight charges per hundredweight, and in loading labor. 3. At the same time, systemwide volume of storage mail and express may have been rising. Certainly, the Pennsy carried large amounts of storage mail and express in and out of New York City. Not only were all-steel cars needed to pass through the tunnels, but they could only be as tall as passenger cars. X29's were an obvious choice for conversion, as they were steel, the right size, and available free in enormous quantity. One issue, however, bothers me. Although numbered and listed as passenger equipment, the X29's were still lettered with freight car stencils (with a couple of obvious additions). The photographic evidence shows large proportions of these cars running in the CK (circle keystone) paint job. However, we know definitely that the CK scheme was obsoleted in early 1954 (if you have the PRR Compendium, you can see the phase SK1b diagram for X29 express cars on page 3). If the passenger train photos are representative, there must have been huge numbers of X29's converted sometime before the first months of 1954 -- but this may not square with your 1953 Passenger Register. It's a puzzle how this worked out -- maybe the express X29 conversions were still being painted in the obsolete CK scheme to some later time -- but this nonstandard lettering behavior would not be typical of Altoona Shops. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 07:29:19 EST Subject: [PRR] Smashboards In a message dated 1/18/02 1:11:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << I'm looking at a couple of RPO car pictures in Volume 2 of the PRR Color Guide on page 28. On each side of the car side doors, there appears to be a "panel" with two vertical rectangles, on inside the other. Anyone know what these are for, or did? Another pictures in the book look like these were paneled over. >> These are to keep the mailbags hooked by the RPO at speed from flailing paint off the side of the car. In the 60's, the original design you see was replaced by stainless steel or aluminum wear plates. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don Murphy" Subject: Subject: RE: [PRR] Shamokin Branch Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 09:12:39 -0500 X-Apparently-From: Dmurp670@cs.com The Ore Train video also contains a few minutes of footage showing the Erie east bayfront with the Hueletts, coal dumper and Hammermill docks in 1951. A C1 is shown pulling empty hoppers out of the empty tracks just west of the dumper. The ore dock is on the right. A great video! My track charts of this installation are at http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/images/ely_w2.gif .All the ore to Mt. Carmel originated here. I've been told that as many as 4 to 6 trains of 100 cars of ore a day in the 1950's were dispatched from here. Little remains today. Four tracks in East Lake Yard servicing Erie Sand and Gravel and a few other industries. Don Murphy Recreating Operations on the Renovo and E&A Divisions of the PRR Circa 1946-All Steam All The Time! Subject: RE: [PRR] Shamokin Branch From: "Chany, Christopher" Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 11:35:47 -0500 If you want to see an Ore train in action buy Penn Valley pictures ore train video. When Mr. Weaver's original film use to be shown at the PRRT&HS banquets you realize how the "S" got in SPF. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don Murphy" Subject: Subject: RE: [PRR] Shamokin Branch Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 09:15:45 -0500 X-Apparently-From: Dmurp670@cs.com The Ore Train video also contains a few minutes of footage showing the Erie east bayfront with the Hueletts, coal dumper and Hammermill docks in 1951. A C1 is shown pulling empty hoppers out of the empty tracks just west of the dumper. The ore dock is on the right. A great video! My track charts of this installation are at http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/images/ely_w2.gif .All the ore to Mt. Carmel originated here. I've been told that as many as 4 to 6 trains of 100 cars of ore a day in the 1950's were dispatched from here. Little remains today. Four tracks in East Lake Yard servicing Erie Sand and Gravel and a few other industries. Don Murphy Recreating Operations on the Renovo and E&A Divisions of the PRR Circa1946-All Steam All The Time! > Subject: RE: [PRR] Shamokin Branch > From: "Chany, Christopher" > Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 11:35:47 -0500 > > If you want to see an Ore train in action buy Penn Valley pictures ore train > video. When Mr. Weaver's original film use to be shown at the PRRT&HS > banquets you realize how the "S" got in SPF. > > Chris Chany > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 10:38:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Enola Classification Yard Reopening?? Whats the latest scuttlebutt about Enola being open? There are posts on another RR forum that state Enola is up and running but having problems.--Mark-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson) Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 10:58:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Enola Classification Yard Reopening?? Hello Mark and List, I don't think that the Enola Humps are activated but they do some flat switching in the yard. I read that in RailPace Magazine a few months ago. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Enola Classification Yard Reopening?? Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 11:48:23 -0500 List: It is my understanding that NS will shortly rearrange train schedules to increase the number of cars classified at Enola. East-West traffic will continue to be classified at Allentown, but North-South traffic will increasingly be classified at Enola as NS continues to take traffic off the NEC and move it via Hagerstown. There was something about this on the Trains.com NewsWire recently. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Lehman" To: Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2002 10:38 AM Subject: [PRR] Enola Classification Yard Reopening?? > Whats the latest scuttlebutt about Enola being open? There are posts on > another RR forum that state Enola is up and running but having > problems.--Mark-- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: Subject: RE: [PRR] Shamokin Branch Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 12:35:33 -0600 Hi Don--I have looked at the Ore Train video many times and had not been able to pin down the date. The best I could do was pre-1955 because there were no shadow keystones visible. How did you find 1951? And the C1--I had always assumed that it was an H9 or maybe H10 doing the switching. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Rare PRR photos Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 17:01:48 -0500 Hi All, I am offering a set of 5 rare PRR photos for sale. They are all contact prints from 8 x 10 negatives. The clarity is amazing. The set consists of 3 L-1 views, the locomotive end of a T-1 tender, and an I-1 with what looks like an experimental train phone system. My guess is that they were all taken by the manufacturer of the train phone components. I have never seen these images in any book. I am offering that as a set only for $30.00 plus shipping. I have only made 6 sets of them. If there is any remaining by then, I will take them to the Phila. Chapter meeting next Saturday. Please give a look. http://users.snip.net/~billlane/prrsteam.jpg Reply to billlane@snip.net if you are interested. Thank you Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 17:01:48 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Rare PRR photos Hi All, I am offering a set of 5 rare PRR photos for sale. They are all contact prints from 8 x 10 negatives. The clarity is amazing. The set consists of 3 L-1 views, the locomotive end of a T-1 tender, and an I-1 with what looks like an experimental train phone system. My guess is that they were all taken by the manufacturer of the train phone components. I have never seen these images in any book. I am offering that as a set only for $30.00 plus shipping. I have only made 6 sets of them. If there is any remaining by then, I will take them to the Phila. Chapter meeting next Saturday. Please give a look. http://users.snip.net/~billlane/prrsteam.jpg Reply to billlane@snip.net if you are interested. Thank you Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Access Your PC from Anywhere Check Email & Transfer files - Free Download http://us.click.yahoo.com/1njxPB/wakDAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TJ LInk" Subject: [PRR] searching around Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 21:19:16 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C1A12E.F3446D40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fellas, I have a friend who has a nice collection of Pennsy Passenger = equipment. He asks if anyone knows how to contact the company who used = to sell wooden shelves for living room and whole house type layouts. He = wants to run his prizes in his office. please contact me if you can = help. This company used to advertise in Model Railroader several years = ago. Thanks! Matt ------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C1A12E.F3446D40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fellas,
        I have a friend who has a = nice=20 collection of Pennsy Passenger equipment. He asks if anyone knows how to = contact=20 the company who used to sell wooden shelves for living room and whole = house type=20 layouts. He wants to run his prizes in his office. please contact me if = you can=20 help.  This company used to advertise in Model Railroader several = years=20 ago. Thanks! Matt
------=_NextPart_000_001D_01C1A12E.F3446D40-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 22:31:59 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] searching around Check Classic Toy Trains for several types of display systems - including www.julestoytrains.com - ceiling hung systems (O& G scales) like the ones that were in the Great American Train Store chains. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 23:41:40 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: Timing of X29 conversions to express boxes. In a message dated 1/19/02 8:00:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, parkvarieties@provide.net writes: << Subj: Re: Timing of X29 conversions to express boxes. Date: 1/19/02 8:00:25 AM Eastern Standard Time From: parkvarieties@provide.net (parkvarieties) To: RickTipton@aol.com Rick, The Passenger Equipment Register is dated January, 1953. As a side note, the March, 1944 Passenger Equipment Register I have lists four series of BX cars; 2000-2499 (499 cars), 49314-57641 (224 cars), 97749-103324 (167 cars) and 566091-574090 (2 cars). These other three series have the same listed dimensions as the 2000-2499 cars. So sometime after the war the cars in these other series must not have been needed any longer for express service and were have converted back to freight service? Frank Brua >> Hi Frank, Thanks for being patient with me. I'm beginning to see that things were not always as they were in the 1960's. Obviously, the PRR was fielding BX's in these number series, and for some reason had not dropped all of them into "passenger" (4-digit) series -- a practice I had not anticipated. It's also clear that the PRR was converting some X29's long before I suspected. Shaking things up a bit more, I notice the SK1b-phase lettering arrangement drawing for express X29's (issued 4-54) provides for up to 6 digits in the road number -- suggestive that not all cars had 4 digits then, and in agreement with what you found. You mention "not needed any more". Yet the PRR wound up (1965, 1968) with many more of these cars. Notice how the BX's in the second, third, and fourth groups are a tiny fraction of the total number series. I think it's much more likely that sometime later these were renumbered compactly into one of the 4-digit groupings. Sounds like we need to compare a number of Passenger Registers with like-dated ORER (freight) to find out what happened. Meantime, thanks for making sure I understand the evidence -- it's a tasty puzzle! Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 23:41:40 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Timing of X29 conversions to express boxes. In a message dated 1/19/02 8:00:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, parkvarieties@provide.net writes: << Subj: Re: Timing of X29 conversions to express boxes. Date: 1/19/02 8:00:25 AM Eastern Standard Time From: parkvarieties@provide.net (parkvarieties) To: RickTipton@aol.com Rick, The Passenger Equipment Register is dated January, 1953. As a side note, the March, 1944 Passenger Equipment Register I have lists four series of BX cars; 2000-2499 (499 cars), 49314-57641 (224 cars), 97749-103324 (167 cars) and 566091-574090 (2 cars). These other three series have the same listed dimensions as the 2000-2499 cars. So sometime after the war the cars in these other series must not have been needed any longer for express service and were have converted back to freight service? Frank Brua >> Hi Frank, Thanks for being patient with me. I'm beginning to see that things were not always as they were in the 1960's. Obviously, the PRR was fielding BX's in these number series, and for some reason had not dropped all of them into "passenger" (4-digit) series -- a practice I had not anticipated. It's also clear that the PRR was converting some X29's long before I suspected. Shaking things up a bit more, I notice the SK1b-phase lettering arrangement drawing for express X29's (issued 4-54) provides for up to 6 digits in the road number -- suggestive that not all cars had 4 digits then, and in agreement with what you found. You mention "not needed any more". Yet the PRR wound up (1965, 1968) with many more of these cars. Notice how the BX's in the second, third, and fourth groups are a tiny fraction of the total number series. I think it's much more likely that sometime later these were renumbered compactly into one of the 4-digit groupings. Sounds like we need to compare a number of Passenger Registers with like-dated ORER (freight) to find out what happened. Meantime, thanks for making sure I understand the evidence -- it's a tasty puzzle! Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AHARTPRR137@aol.com Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 00:33:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Timing of X29 conversions to express boxes. To Frank, Rick, and all The following BX cars are listed in Official Register of Passenger Equipment for the dated shown: January 1951 2000 to 2499 494 cars 49314 to 57641 241 cars 97949 to 103324 166 cars 566091 to 574090 2 cars December 1958 2000 to 2499 464 cars 49422 to 57411 230 cars 100013 to 103319 158 cars 572042,573479 2 cars As an added note, X29 100688 is shown on page 95 of the 1953 Car Builders Cyclopedia. It is lettered in the Ball Scheme with Railway Express Agency lettering. The car has a climax roof (curved panels), indented dreadnaught ends, corrugated doors, and express trucks which are the same as those used on the X42 60' express box cars. The weigh date is 9-50. Sunshine Models produced a resin kit for this car, Kit #26.13. Andy Hart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] The SKINNY on Enola Yard Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 03:31:27 -0500 Hey Guys! The Rumors are mostly true about Enola. The NS has knocked down the old West Class hump as most already know. If you can believe it, they've BACK-DATED the engineering that the Good 'Ol Pennsy had in place. Seems the Boys from down South are determined to put their stamp on Everything up here. From what I understand they are of the opinion that less mechanical means less maintenance which means less man hours which translates to a bigger bottom line. Yes they've actually replaced state of the art with Hundred Fifty Year Old technology. No retarders, No powered switches only hand throws on a measly 1.5% "Hump". West Class capacity has been cut literally in half. Tracks 16-22 are GONE tracks 1-15 have been shortened by half and at max only holds 40 cars per track and less as you graduate down the ladder. What Scares the hell out of me is that there are NO blocking systems in place to protect trimmer crews at the West end of the hump tracks. Heaven Forbid they get a rookie in there bending the rails and he/she lines a drop of cars onto a crew working in between the cars at the other end. As of right now only tracks 5-15 are being used until work is completed on tracks 1-4. At that point tracks 1-15 will BE the hump. Tracks 23-26 are still stubs as conrail left them to by used to makeup outbound trains. Tracks 27-35 are also reconnected to the receiving yard tracks 1-8 at W11. Don't expect they'll reattach West Receiving Tracks 9-18 unless by some Miracle the NS regains the freight business they've given away since the split. Rumor has it that if things work out as THEY plan, then the East Hump will get the same treatment. Granted this IS an improvement over what Conrail saw fit to dismantle. However it grieves me deeply to see the Hub of the Great Pennsy reduced to nothing more than an over glorified flat-switching yard. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 23:32:06 +1100 From: "Mick Molloy" Subject: [PRR] Looking for help Hi guys, I am in need of a little assistance. My birthday rolled around agian recently and amongst other things I was given two copies of the same book. It is "Pennsy Electric Years" by W. Volkmer (Morning Sun Books) I have spoken to the gift givers and they are happy for me to sell one so I can get something different I dont want to be totaly gross and ask them what they cost but I don't know how much to ask for it. The one I'm selling is unopened (still in its shrinkwrap) and in perfect condition. Can any of you suggest a reasonable price to ask? Thanks, Pennsy Australia's No:1 SPF Happy Rails ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard Campbell" Subject: [PRR] X-43 roof Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 09:11:04 -0500 Greetings Does anyone know what type of roofs where used on the X-43 [no subclass] boxcars. Some info points to the rectangular panel while others say they were diagonal panel type. Thanks in advance Neil Campbell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] modeling contest at the convention Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 09:58:03 -0500 All right Guys, In case you missed it, no one has stepped forward to organize the model contest at the PRR convention this year. (Read - NO MODEL CONTEST) I have said that I will help, but cannot be the manager because I am not sure if I can go yet. We have all taken for granted that John Johnson would run it. He has stepped down after many times at bat. He has more then done his time. This is what I got back from Joe Acri when I said that I would help. Joe's email address is: sacs@paonline.com Email Joe so we can get a group organized. I cannot imagine a PRR Convention without a model contest. Here are the responsibilities. We have the award certificates, ballots and ribbons and are requesting door prizes from the vendors. We have placed a notice on the registration form about volunteering to staff the room. 1. Schedule staff to watch the room. 2. Arrange with hotel personnel to open and lock down the room as required. 3. Count the ballots. 4. Award the prizes during the banquet. 5. Model contest will be held in room A. I have arranged with the hotel to setup covered tables around the perimeter of the room. 6. The hotel contact is Karyn Gingerich kgingerich@radpenn.com . Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh streetcars .... query Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 15:17:09 -0000 To Pgh trolley experts, Thanks to the kindness of Bob Anderson of Shelby, Ohio, I now have a Pgh streetcar for Federal St. pics at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/p87/gallery12.htm At the moment the car is only in its basic livery and needs an interior, glazing and, especially numbering and decalling. It's here that a problem arises. I've a video 'Trolleys of Pennsylvania' which give a good indication of where the numbering and lettering go, but I cannot make out the herald, unfortunately. None of the views are clear enough. I'd be very grateful if anyone on the list could point me in the direction of any trolley web site that might show a clear view of this Pittsburgh Trolley herald. Regards, John H. Wright, Washington, England. Web sites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and http://www.xclent.clara.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:35:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh streetcars .... query John, I believe the model Streetcar you have is a Pittsburgh Railways "Low Floor" car. Fairfield Models imported these. I painted one years ago for someone and I can't remember any special logos. Just Black lettering/number. I did place the big destination board on too. Styrene plastic paited white with black letters did the trick. I just picked one up for myself and will be painting when I get a chance. Check out the Pittsburgh (Arden Trolley at Washington Pa.) Trolley museum website. They have one of these cars and a view of the streetcar may show this logo you mention? ...Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: nuts4prr@aol.com Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:44:05 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Steam Model!! Gang, Check out this site. There second locomotive will be an M1. www.broadway-limited.com Anybody know anymore about them? Graeme Nitz An Aussie SPF Now Living in Tulsa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Access Your PC from Anywhere Flexibility and Freedom - Free Download http://us.click.yahoo.com/3njxPB/yakDAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chuck Friedlein" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh streetcars .... query Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:54:06 -0500 John, I don't have the information you seek, but as a member of the East Penn Traction Club (EPTC), I know one of the other members will be able to help you. My suggestion is to contact Gary Reighn who publishes the EPTC newsletter. You can reach him at gary@reighn.com and ask him if he can help you locate someone who knows about Pittsburgh trolleys. Chuck Friedlein ----- Original Message ----- From: "John H. Wright" To: "PRR Talk" Cc: "Anderson, Bob W." ; "ken kobus" ; "John Pearson" ; "Joe Jack" ; "Derrick J Brashear" ; "PRR - Modeling" Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 10:17 AM Subject: [PRR] Pittsburgh streetcars .... query > To Pgh trolley experts, > Thanks to the kindness of Bob Anderson of Shelby, Ohio, I now have a Pgh > streetcar for Federal St. > > pics at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/p87/gallery12.htm > > At the moment the car is only in its basic livery and needs an interior, > glazing and, especially numbering and decalling. It's here that a problem > arises. > I've a video 'Trolleys of Pennsylvania' which give a good indication of > where the numbering and lettering go, but I cannot make out the herald, > unfortunately. None of the views are clear enough. > > I'd be very grateful if anyone on the list could point me in the direction > of any trolley web site that might show a clear view of this Pittsburgh > Trolley herald. > > Regards, > John H. Wright, > Washington, England. > Web sites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and > http://www.xclent.clara.net > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] FW: [Fwd: Help] Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 13:47:39 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C1A1B9.06C6D440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Friends, I received this message today from our good PRRT&HS friends, Peg and George Stanley of Lewistown. I am passing it on in the event someone can assist. Thanx. Al ============================ Bill Mullen wrote: Dear Sirs: I would like to ask a favor of your organization [PRRT&HS] . I am a Special Education Teacher that works with Emotionally Disabled Middle School Students (6-8). My kids are mostly from homes where they have been Abused Emotionally and or Physically. A good number have Foster Parents, or parents that need as much help as they do. As you can imagine attempting to teach them is a very difficult task. I use many incentives and rewards for positive behavior and completed work. However, what I want to do is to provide them with something that will not only peak their interest but also provide me with a means of teaching them something that will help them become useful citizens. I would like to do this in the following way, It is my intention to build with their help a "Model RailRoad" in my classroom. I have the permission from my Principal and have discussed it with my Superintendent. Though thinking it is a great idea, they feel the task may not be attainable. Obviously I can build lesson plans across the curriculum when the project is completed. What I am asking for is a generous donation that will provide the Trains, Cars, Transformers etc. for my kids so that I would be able to complete my project. I realize that in this time of falling profits etc. that it will be difficult to do this however, I am not asking for Top of the line items, seconds, used pieces would also be great. I have to believe there are companies / people out there that will open their hearts for these kids and give them something that in the end will be very special!! Any help will be greatly appreciated Thank You! Bill Mullen Special Education Dept. Loranger Middle School 148 Saco Ave. Old Orchard Beach, ME 04064 ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C1A1B9.06C6D440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Friends, 
 
I received this message today from = our good=20 PRRT&HS friends, Peg and George Stanley of Lewistown. I am = passing it=20 on in the event someone can assist.
 
Thanx.
 
Al 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Bill Mullen wrote: 
Dear Sirs:
I would  = like to ask=20 a favor of your organization  [PRRT&HS] .  I am a = Special=20 Education Teacher that works with Emotionally Disabled Middle School = Students=20 (6-8).  My kids are mostly from homes where they have been Abused=20 Emotionally  and or Physically.  A good number have Foster = Parents, or=20 parents that need as much help as they do.  As you can imagine = attempting=20 to teach them is a very difficult task.  I use many incentives and = rewards=20 for positive behavior and completed work.  However, what I want to = do is to=20 provide them with something that will not only peak their interest but = also=20 provide me with a means of teaching them something that will help them = become=20 useful citizens.  I would like to do this in the following = way,  It is=20 my intention to build with their help a "Model RailRoad" in my = classroom. =20 I have the permission from my Principal and have discussed it with my=20 Superintendent.  Though thinking it is a great idea, they feel the = task may=20 not be attainable.  Obviously I can build lesson plans across the=20 curriculum when the project is completed.  What I am  asking = for is a=20 generous donation that will provide the Trains, Cars, Transformers etc. = for my=20 kids so that I would be able to complete my project.  I realize = that in=20 this time of falling profits etc. that it will be difficult to do this = however,=20 I am not asking for Top of the line items, seconds, used pieces would = also be=20 great. I have to believe there are companies / people out there that = will open=20 their hearts for these kids and give them something that in the end will = be very=20 special!!  Any help will be greatly appreciated

Thank You!
 =20

Bill Mullen
Special Education = Dept.=20
Loranger Middle School
148 Saco Ave.
Old Orchard = Beach, ME=20 = 04064

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C1A1B9.06C6D440-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 16:10:15 EST Subject: [PRR] Model Train Help: Fwd - Fwd - Fwd [Fwd: Help] The same message appeared on AOL "Model Train" chat boards - the sender appears to be legit, to the extent that a teacher by that name is listed on the Districts web site RR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 17:12:21 -0500 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: [Fwd: Help] Harry Webber wrote: > > Dear Al, > > Five complete Athearn HO trainsets are on the way from your friends at > SMART and TheBroadwayLtd.com > > Harry Webber Harry, Way to go! Hopefully, at least some are PRR. :) Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] FW: [Fwd: Help] Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 17:18:55 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C1A1D6.8A3FE100 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harry, Its been a long time since I have heard from you. Praise God for you and your organizations. I look forward to our continued working together. Al ================== -----Original Message----- From: Harry Webber [mailto:smartcommco@earthlink.net] Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 5:22 PM To: Al Buchan Cc: Franklin R. Kuhn; Robert L. Johnson; PRR-TALK; PRR-MODELING; NE-RAILS-AND-SIGNALS; Scott Paglughi; Jim Winslow; Ivan E. Frantz, Jr.; Dick Adams; Dave A. Scott; Chuck Blardone; Bob Brubaker; Dave Scott; Joe Butler; Al Giannantonio; Charlie Horan; Dan DiAddezio; Margaret E. Stanley Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: [Fwd: Help] Dear Al, Five complete Athearn HO trainsets are on the way from your friends at SMART and TheBroadwayLtd.com Harry Webber Al Buchan wrote: Friends, I received this message today from our good PRRT&HS friends, Peg and George Stanley of Lewistown. I am passing it on in the event someone can assist.Thanx.Al ============================Bill Mullen wrote: Dear Sirs: I would like to ask a favor of your organization[PRRT&HS] . I am a Special Education Teacher that works with Emotionally Disabled Middle School Students (6-8). My kids are mostly from homes where they have been Abused Emotionally and or Physically. A good number have Foster Parents, or parents that need as much help as they do. As you can imagine attempting to teach them is a very difficult task. I use many incentives and rewards for positive behavior and completed work. However, what I want to do is to provide them with something that will not only peak their interest but also provide me with a means of teaching them something that will help them become useful citizens. I would like to do this in the following way, It is my intention to build with their help a "Model RailRoad" in my classroom. I have the permission from my Principal and have discussed it with my Superintendent. Though thinking it is a great idea, they feel the task may not be attainable. Obviously I can build lesson plans across the curriculum when the project is completed. What I am asking for is a generous donation that will provide the Trains, Cars, Transformers etc. for my kids so that I would be able to complete my project. I realize that in this time of falling profits etc. that it will be difficult to do this however, I am not asking for Top of the line items, seconds, used pieces would also be great. I have to believe there are companies / people out there that will open their hearts for these kids and give them something that in the end will be very special!! Any help will be greatly appreciated Thank You! Bill Mullen Special Education Dept. Loranger Middle School 148 Saco Ave. Old Orchard Beach, ME 04064 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C1A1D6.8A3FE100 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Harry,
 
Its = been a long time=20 since I have heard from you. Praise God for you and your=20 organizations.
 
I look = forward to=20 our continued working together.
 
Al
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
-----Original Message-----
From: Harry Webber=20 [mailto:smartcommco@earthlink.net]
Sent: Sunday, January 20, = 2002=20 5:22 PM
To: Al Buchan
Cc: Franklin R. Kuhn; Robert = L.=20 Johnson; PRR-TALK; PRR-MODELING; NE-RAILS-AND-SIGNALS; Scott Paglughi; = Jim=20 Winslow; Ivan E. Frantz, Jr.; Dick Adams; Dave A. Scott; Chuck = Blardone; Bob=20 Brubaker; Dave Scott; Joe Butler; Al Giannantonio; Charlie Horan; Dan=20 DiAddezio; Margaret E. Stanley
Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: [Fwd:=20 Help]

Dear Al,=20

Five complete Athearn HO trainsets are on the way from your friends = at=20 SMART and TheBroadwayLtd.com=20

Harry Webber=20

Al Buchan wrote:=20

 Friends, I = received=20 this message today from our good PRRT&HS friends, Peg and George = Stanley=20 of Lewistown. I am passing it on in the event someone can=20 assist.Thanx.Al =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3DBill Mullen=20 wrote:
Dear=20 Sirs:
I would  like to ask a favor of your=20 organization[PRRT&HS] .  I am a = Special=20 Education Teacher that works with Emotionally Disabled Middle School = Students (6-8).  My kids are mostly from homes where they have = been=20 Abused Emotionally  and or Physically.  A good number have = Foster=20 Parents, or parents that need as much help as they do.  As you = can=20 imagine attempting to teach them is a very difficult task.  I = use many=20 incentives and rewards for positive behavior and completed = work. =20 However, what I want to do is to provide them with something that = will not=20 only peak their interest but also provide me with a means of = teaching them=20 something that will help them become useful citizens.  I would = like to=20 do this in the following way,  It is my intention to build with = their=20 help a "Model RailRoad" in my classroom.  I have the permission = from my=20 Principal and have discussed it with my Superintendent.  Though = thinking it is a great idea, they feel the task may not be = attainable. =20 Obviously I can build lesson plans across the curriculum when the = project is=20 completed.  What I am  asking for is a generous donation = that will=20 provide the Trains, Cars, Transformers etc. for my kids so that I = would be=20 able to complete my project.  I realize that in this time of = falling=20 profits etc. that it will be difficult to do this however, I am not = asking=20 for Top of the line items, seconds, used pieces would also be great. = I have=20 to believe there are companies / people out there that will open = their=20 hearts for these kids and give them something that in the end will = be very=20 special!!  Any help will be greatly appreciated=20
Thank You!
 =20

Bill Mullen
Special Education = Dept.=20
Loranger Middle School
148 Saco Ave.
Old Orchard = Beach,=20 ME=20 04064

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C1A1D6.8A3FE100-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 14:21:51 -0800 From: Harry Webber Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: [Fwd: Help] --------------996EEF60D8538E3D7D8949F1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Al, Five complete Athearn HO trainsets are on the way from your friends at SMART and TheBroadwayLtd.com Harry Webber Al Buchan wrote: > Friends, I received this message today from our good PRRT&HS friends, > Peg and George Stanley of Lewistown. I am passing it on in the event > someone can assist.Thanx.Al ============================Bill Mullen > wrote: > Dear Sirs: > I would like to ask a favor of your organization[PRRT&HS] . I am a > Special Education Teacher that works with Emotionally Disabled Middle > School Students (6-8). My kids are mostly from homes where they have > been Abused Emotionally and or Physically. A good number have Foster > Parents, or parents that need as much help as they do. As you can > imagine attempting to teach them is a very difficult task. I use many > incentives and rewards for positive behavior and completed work. > However, what I want to do is to provide them with something that will > not only peak their interest but also provide me with a means of > teaching them something that will help them become useful citizens. I > would like to do this in the following way, It is my intention to > build with their help a "Model RailRoad" in my classroom. I have the > permission from my Principal and have discussed it with my > Superintendent. Though thinking it is a great idea, they feel the > task may not be attainable. Obviously I can build lesson plans across > the curriculum when the project is completed. What I am asking for > is a generous donation that will provide the Trains, Cars, > Transformers etc. for my kids so that I would be able to complete my > project. I realize that in this time of falling profits etc. that it > will be difficult to do this however, I am not asking for Top of the > line items, seconds, used pieces would also be great. I have to > believe there are companies / people out there that will open their > hearts for these kids and give them something that in the end will be > very special!! Any help will be greatly appreciated > >> Thank You! >> >> >> Bill Mullen >> Special Education Dept. >> Loranger Middle School >> 148 Saco Ave. >> Old Orchard Beach, ME 04064 >> --------------996EEF60D8538E3D7D8949F1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Al,

Five complete Athearn HO trainsets are on the way from your friends at SMART and TheBroadwayLtd.com

Harry Webber

Al Buchan wrote:

 Friends, I received this message today from our good PRRT&HS friends, Peg and George Stanley of Lewistown. I am passing it on in the event someone can assist.Thanx.Al ============================Bill Mullen wrote:
Dear Sirs:
I would  like to ask a favor of your organization[PRRT&HS] .  I am a Special Education Teacher that works with Emotionally Disabled Middle School Students (6-8).  My kids are mostly from homes where they have been Abused Emotionally  and or Physically.  A good number have Foster Parents, or parents that need as much help as they do.  As you can imagine attempting to teach them is a very difficult task.  I use many incentives and rewards for positive behavior and completed work.  However, what I want to do is to provide them with something that will not only peak their interest but also provide me with a means of teaching them something that will help them become useful citizens.  I would like to do this in the following way,  It is my intention to build with their help a "Model RailRoad" in my classroom.  I have the permission from my Principal and have discussed it with my Superintendent.  Though thinking it is a great idea, they feel the task may not be attainable.  Obviously I can build lesson plans across the curriculum when the project is completed.  What I am  asking for is a generous donation that will provide the Trains, Cars, Transformers etc. for my kids so that I would be able to complete my project.  I realize that in this time of falling profits etc. that it will be difficult to do this however, I am not asking for Top of the line items, seconds, used pieces would also be great. I have to believe there are companies / people out there that will open their hearts for these kids and give them something that in the end will be very special!!  Any help will be greatly appreciated
Thank You!
 

Bill Mullen
Special Education Dept.
Loranger Middle School
148 Saco Ave.
Old Orchard Beach, ME 04064

--------------996EEF60D8538E3D7D8949F1-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 18:34:52 -0500 From: "Michael A. Hmel" Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: [Fwd: Help] This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_9B2x3O7E2HO2FBoelQiL0Q) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi List , Very nice of Harry Weber to send some HO train sets and get this effort = on the road , but I was wonder if you (Al) could see if thats the scale = they want . I didn't see any mention of scale in the original message . = I was getting ready to write earlier about the scale but got involved in = some work around the house . Please let the list know about the scale so = those who can help in this will send the correct items . I would hate to = see people sending HO , O , S etc.... However maybe this would be ok too = ? =20 Mike Hmel=20 PRRT&HS , TCA =20 --Boundary_(ID_9B2x3O7E2HO2FBoelQiL0Q) Content-type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi List ,
Very nice of Harry Weber to = send some HO=20 train sets and get this effort on the road , but I was wonder if you = (Al) could=20 see if thats the scale they want . I didn't see any mention of scale in = the=20 original message . I was getting ready to write earlier about the scale = but got=20 involved in some work around the house . Please let the list know about = the=20 scale so those who can help in this will send the correct items . I = would hate=20 to see people sending HO , O , S etc.... However maybe this would be ok too = ?   
 
Mike Hmel
PRRT&HS , TCA=20  
--Boundary_(ID_9B2x3O7E2HO2FBoelQiL0Q)-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 22:50:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-LV handoff From: "M. E Allen" This one really does not have a simple answer Post WWI Lehigh Valley trains had three different New York terminal points (none of this is absolute) 1. Long distance (at least into Pennsylvania) locomotive hauled trains used Penn Station NY with engine changes at Manhattan Transfer and then on the connecting track between Hunter and NK 2. The long distance motor cars (and their locomotive hauled substitutes) used Exchange Place. 3. The commuter trains which ran only in NJ used a track adjacent to the CNJ terminal at the Morris Canal Basin and patrons used the CNJ ferries LV had its own station in Newark the location of which escapes me at the moment. Mike Allen ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 00:38:31 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: [Fwd: Help] Folks, Time to PAY IT FORWARD... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 01:14:15 EST Subject: [PRR] "The World's Greatest Hobby" Pay It Forward Folks, Here is a little note from a teacher in the East and his hopes for his class. Al Buchan, a good friend, made me aware of the needs and someone confirmed that we had a real teacher in a real school. I must say that Harry Webber's offer being the first was most generous and thought full. With all the recent advertising in the hobby being the theme "Lend a Hand to the World's greatest Hobby." Well, here's another familiar term "PAY IT FORWARD." Here's your chance to contribute just a little. These kids don't need a mountain of gifts just a token reminder that some of us care. From a Publishing company it might be a years subscription to their magazine. From a manufacturer a couple of cars or something to just say you understand and want to "PAY IT FORWARD." Bless this one single soul for coming forward and trying to do something that is good for kids that hurt... I say ... PAY IT FORWARD! We might get lucky and it might work... PAY IT FORWARD! Thanks Harry for being the first to PAY IT FORWARD...! Thanks AL for staying on top this! AL how can I PAY IT FORWARD? Thanks Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 01:36:01 EST Subject: [PRR] "The World's Greatest Hobby" Pay It Forward And I left off the original note in error... Greg Martin Al Buchan wrote: Friends, I received this message today from our good PRRT&HS friends, Peg and George Stanley of Lewistown. I am passing it on in the event someone can assist. Thanx. Al ============================ Bill Mullen wrote: > Dear Sirs: > I would like to ask a favor of your organization [PRRT&HS]. I am a Special Education Teacher that works with Emotionally Disabled Middle School Students (6-8). My kids are mostly from homes where they have been Abused Emotionally and or Physically. A good number have Foster Parents, or parents that need as much help as they do. As you can imagine attempting to teach them is a very difficult task. I use many incentives and rewards for positive behavior and completed work. However, what I want to do is to provide them with something that will not only peak their interest but also provide me with a means of teaching them something that will help them become useful citizens. I would like to do this in the following way, It is my intention to build with their help a "Model Railroad" in my classroom. I have the permission from my Principal and have discussed it with my Superintendent. Though thinking it is a great idea, they feel the task may not be attainable. Obviously I can build lesson plans across the curriculum when the project is completed. What I am asking for is a generous donation that will provide the Trains, Cars, Transformers, etc., for my kids so that I would be able to complete my project. I realize that in this time of falling profits, etc., that it will be difficult to do this however, I am not asking for Top of the line items, seconds, used pieces would also be great. I have to believe there are companies / people out there that will open their hearts for these kids and give them something that in the end will be very special! Any help will be greatly appreciated Thank You! Bill Mullen Special Education Dept. Loranger Middle School 148 Saco Ave. Old Orchard Beach, ME 04064< Again PAY IT FORWARD! Dear Al, Five complete Athearn HO trainsets are on the way from your friends at SMART and TheBroadwayLtd.com Harry Webber ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "dfc PRR 7002" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh streetcars .... query Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 06:50:12 -0500 Yes, It is indeed a Pittsburgh single ended low-floor car. The colors are wrong. It should be orange with a black roof. The PRCo logo was not used on these cars, lettering was black. Only the car number was on the front and side of the car. The rollsigns are black with white lettering. I recommend visiting Bob Deitrich's site on PRCo: http://www.users.voicenet.com/~dietrich/SHJ/default.htm I have several views of one of 3756 (from 1925) cars taken at the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum in Washington, PA. We regularly operate this car at the museum. http://www.geocities.com/armconband/photo.html DF Cramer Teacher-Trombonist-Historian-Conductor _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 07:30:04 EST Subject: [PRR] X43 may be a trap In a message dated 1/20/02 5:29:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Subject: X-43 roof From: "Richard Campbell" Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 09:11:04 -0500 Greetings Does anyone know what type of roofs where used on the X-43 [no subclass] boxcars. Some info points to the rectangular panel while others say they were diagonal panel type. Thanks in advance Neil Campbell >> Neil, Be unusually skeptical of any answer you get on these "vendor" cars. In the past I've received different answers from authorities who normally are reliable and consistent. It's possible this "class" (X43) is actually two or more groups of cars, with differing structures possible in roofs and ends. They may have even been built at different times (and differing from the "built dates" so neatly recorded in PRR records). I'd rely on photos of individual X43's, and avoid generalizations by "class" until someone figures this out. I'm aware how doggone unsatisfactory this answer is -- but it's my best info until someone straightens this mystery out. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 07:55:15 -0500 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-LV handoff The LV Station was located adjacent to Weequakee (Spelling) Park directly west and across the street from NK Tower. I cannot recall the name of the street.To the south of NK tower were two of America's greatest Hot Dog Emporiums; Sabins and Millmans. To the north of NK Tower was Newwarks finest upscale restaurant and bakery called the Tavern. Oh how the mighty have fallen! Bennett Levin "M. E Allen" wrote: > > This one really does not have a simple answer > > Post WWI Lehigh Valley trains had three different New York terminal > points > (none of this is absolute) > > 1. Long distance (at least into Pennsylvania) locomotive hauled trains > used Penn Station NY with engine changes at Manhattan Transfer and then > on the connecting track between Hunter and NK > > 2. The long distance motor cars (and their locomotive hauled substitutes) > used Exchange Place. > > 3. The commuter trains which ran only in NJ used a track adjacent to the > CNJ terminal at the Morris Canal Basin and patrons used the CNJ ferries > > LV had its own station in Newark the location of which escapes me at the > moment. > > Mike Allen > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 08:57:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-LV handoff I believe the LV station in Newark may have been Meeker Avenue. I have seen an LV operating timetable (it's not mine, don't have it here, may have been from the thirties or forties) which shows long distance LV trains running to Penn Station NY, and stopping at Penn Station Newark but most not at the LV Newark station. However, there were one or two locals originating in Jersey City which still used the LV's own Newark station. Weequahic Park (Newark) is the corrected spelling. Am I correct in assuming that these LV passenger locals would have operated over the joint PRR/LV Newark Bay bridge? Did any other passenger service use this route -- did PRR ever run passenger service into Greenville, for example? Talk about rare mileage! John Bosin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pittsburgh streetcars .... query Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 08:10:35 -0600 I believe there is a colored picture of at least one of these street cars in one of the Morning Sun type books. I don't remember the title, but it's Volume II on street cars in Pennsylvania. The book may be still available. -----Original Message----- From: dfc PRR 7002 [mailto:prr7002@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 5:50 AM To: johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Pittsburgh streetcars .... query Yes, It is indeed a Pittsburgh single ended low-floor car. The colors are wrong. It should be orange with a black roof. The PRCo logo was not used on these cars, lettering was black. Only the car number was on the front and side of the car. The rollsigns are black with white lettering. I recommend visiting Bob Deitrich's site on PRCo: http://www.users.voicenet.com/~dietrich/SHJ/default.htm I have several views of one of 3756 (from 1925) cars taken at the Pennsylvania Trolley Museum in Washington, PA. We regularly operate this car at the museum. http://www.geocities.com/armconband/photo.html DF Cramer Teacher-Trombonist-Historian-Conductor _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 09:15:01 -0600 Subject: [PRR] New PRR web site From: "William J. Ayers" List, I have created a new PRR web site pertaining to the Crestline engine facilities. It is still being constructed, but there are photos, text and a track chart ready for viewing. There are more photos, text, and PRR drawings yet to come. Please stop by and I welcome any and all comments. http://crestline.pennsyrr.com/ Thanks. Bill Ayers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson) Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 13:45:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Tree Triming at Horseshoe Curve Has anyone heard anything on the tree cutting at Horseshoe Curve? Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Justin Silverman" Subject: [PRR] Caboose Restoration Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:05:00 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C1A28C.FF51DA00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On behalf of the Ocean Gate Historical Society, located in Ocean County, = NJ, I am writing to you to inquire about any help your organization might= offer for the restoration of a caboose. The society has just purchased = a caboose from Amtrak and moved it to their grounds. The caboose was bui= lt in 1918 by the Pennsylvania Railroad and refurbished by Amtrak between= the 1970s to the '80s. During this refurbishment, Amtrak replaced the o= riginal sink and stove. The new stove used kerosene as a fuel, which som= e of it is spilt on the floor and still stored in a tank. The paint on t= he inside is pealing, which might cause a hazard during the restoration b= ecause it might contain lead. The outside is heavily rusted in small, sc= attered spots. The windows are intact except for a missing door window. = =20 The society is planning to turn the caboose into a museum which will be o= pen to the public. Any help you might have or knowledge of other organiz= ations that can help would be greatly appreciated. Thank You for your time. Sincerely, Justin Silverman Co-Curator PO Box 673 Ocean Gate, NJ 08740Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : = http://explorer.msn.com ------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C1A28C.FF51DA00 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On= behalf of the Ocean Gate Historical Society, located in Ocean County, NJ= , I am writing to you to inquire about any help your organization might o= ffer for the restoration of a caboose.  The society has just pu= rchased a caboose from Amtrak and moved it to their grounds.  The ca= boose was built in 1918 by the Pennsylvania Railroad and refurbished= by Amtrak between the 1970s to the '80s.  During this refurbishment= , Amtrak replaced the original sink and stove.  The new stove used k= erosene as a fuel, which some of it is spilt on the floor and still store= d in a tank.  The paint on the inside is pealing, which might cause = a hazard during the restoration because it might contain lead.  The = outside is heavily rusted in small, scattered spots.  The windo= ws are intact except for a missing door window. 
&n= bsp;
The society is planning to turn the caboose into a museum= which will be open to the public.  Any help you might have or knowl= edge of other organizations that can help would be greatly appreciated.
 
Thank You for your time.
 
Sincerely,
Justin Silverman
Co-Curator
PO Box 673
Ocean Gate, NJ 08740



Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Exp= lorer download : http://explorer.msn.= com

------=_NextPart_001_0006_01C1A28C.FF51DA00-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:13:59 -0500 From: Wahsatch Backshop Subject: [PRR] SPAM: "PRR Passenger Equipment Roster - 10/1/54" 4 copies Just giving you notice I have only 4 copies of the retypeset "PRR Passenger Equipment Roster - 10/1/54" left. With the dropoff in sales, it will be a few years, if ever, I will reprint this version. The paper costs have doubled and the original digital files are in an obsolete WP format under obsolete system software. Here's a description: Pennsylvania Railroad 10/1/54 Passenger Equipment Roster retypeset and printed in 1996 with additional info on truck types used on each car; does not include business, parlor cars, or Pullman sleepers. 80 pages, 8.5" by 11", spiral bound. 67 page numerical list of 4340 cars with: Car Number; Car Type; Class; Seating Capacity; Type of Construction; A/C; Seats; and Trucks. 2 page list of Car Type with Class, Construction Type, Weight, Baggage Capacity, and Mail Compartment Length; 4 page sorted list of Truck Type Assignment according to Class and Car Number; and 3 page sorted list of Car Class according to Car Numbers in each class. The roster Priority shipped with Delivery Confirmation USA price is $25 - as long as you pay by PayPal. Why? It costs me a $1 in gas, wintertime, and 25 minutes to go deposit a check and it's the opposite direction of the Post Office. I'm old and gettin' lazy and there are only 4 copies left! The cost outside the USA will be a lot steeper since the Post Office dropped the Air Mail Book Rate - it's now straight Air Mail by the ounce. An original on eBay, 1059630608, recently sold for $147+ AND did not include the info of which truck(s) were under each car. Please send me an email off list if you want a copy. Thanks for the bandwidth, -=- Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:27:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] SPAM: "PRR Passenger Equipment Roster - 10/1/54" From: Jerry Britton On 1/21/02 3:13 PM, Wahsatch Backshop (wahsatchut@vaix.net) wrote: > Just giving you notice I have only 4 copies of the retypeset "PRR > Passenger Equipment Roster - 10/1/54" left. With the dropoff in sales, > it will be a few years, if ever, I will reprint this version. The paper > costs have doubled and the original digital files are in an obsolete WP > format under obsolete system software. > > Here's a description: > Pennsylvania Railroad 10/1/54 Passenger Equipment Roster retypeset and > printed in 1996 with additional info on truck types used on each car; > does not include business, parlor cars, or Pullman sleepers. 80 pages, > 8.5" by 11", spiral bound. 67 page numerical list of 4340 cars with: > Car Number; Car Type; Class; Seating Capacity; Type of Construction; > A/C; Seats; and Trucks. 2 page list of Car Type with Class, > Construction Type, Weight, Baggage Capacity, and Mail Compartment > Length; 4 page sorted list of Truck Type Assignment according to Class > and Car Number; and 3 page sorted list of Car Class according to Car > Numbers in each class. > > The roster Priority shipped with Delivery Confirmation USA price is $25 > - as long as you pay by PayPal. Why? It costs me a $1 in gas, > wintertime, and 25 minutes to go deposit a check and it's the opposite > direction of the Post Office. I'm old and gettin' lazy and there are > only 4 copies left! The cost outside the USA will be a lot steeper since > the Post Office dropped the Air Mail Book Rate - it's now straight Air > Mail by the ounce. > > An original on eBay, 1059630608, recently sold for $147+ AND did not > include the info of which truck(s) were under each car. > I have an original that will be scanned and included in PDF format on a CD containing dozens of other PRR documents, all from 1954. However, the above comment about not including the truck information is correct. On the flip side, the original roster includes some info not in the reprint! For more info on this CD, see http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/*ws4d-db-query-QuickShow?DSOP-KCX4 ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:35:33 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] ORPTE numbers, X29 express boxes, AAR Mechanical Code BX Hello, I've been thrilled at the info that's been shared on X29 express boxes from various sources. Putting together all the "Official Register of Passenger Train Equipment" data that I've received, here's a picture of the X29 BX history: Class/AAR Mech Code/ Numbers/1943 Mar/1944/1951/1953/1958/1965 Dec/1969 Mar X29 BX 001800-1999 0 0 0 0 0 196 136 X29 BX 002000-2499 499 499 494 493 464 261 180 X29 BX 004800-4999 0 0 0 0 0 199 170 X29 BX 005200-5399 0 0 0 0 0 198 118 X29 BX 005400-5539 0 0 0 0 0 140 131 X29 BX 006800-6999 0 0 0 0 0 199 164 X29 BX 009450-9459 0 0 0 0 0 10 3 X29 BX 009460-9594 0 0 0 0 0 64 36 X29 BX 009610-9999 7 0 0 0 0 222 166 X29 BX 049314-57641 224 224 241 ? 230 0 0 X29 BX 097749-103324 167 167 166 ? 158 0 0 X29 BX 566091-574090 2 2 2 ? 2 0 0 BTW, I tried to render the above without tabs, etc., but you'll undoubtedly have to play with spaces a bit to get things to line up. Don't forget to open up to full page first. What we see, thanks to Steve, Frank, Andy, and xeroxes provided me by Ken McElreath and others, is that up into 1958 there were four series of X29's equipped for passenger service, and only one of them was in PRR's 4-digit "passenger" numbering series. Between 1958 and 1965, there were several changes: 1. Eight new number series were created with X29's. 2. The three number series using 5 or 6-digit numbers were vacated. 3. The total number of X29 BX cars went up significantly. Some preliminary conclusions: 4. There were at least two major programs to convert X29 revenue freight cars into express boxes - one before 1943, and one after 1958. This conversion to passenger service presumably involved different trucks, extra handrails and steps, and in some cases interior electric light fixtures for loading/unloading. Gary Rauch (Dec 1976 Keystone) reminds us that, as passenger cars, these had air signal and steam heat piping passing under the floor -- but I wouldn't take this to mean the cars themselves were heated, as they were for storage mail and express only. Gary's article shows #2185 to illustrate the X29 BX conversion -- that car was rebuilt in 1941. 5. It's no wonder the CK scheme is prominent in all pictures of the Fifties -- there were roughly 900 of them in 1943. Some things we still don't know: 6. We can't tell if 1958's 390 cars in the three series higher than #9999 were scrapped, or were renumbered below 9999. For that matter, since they were a a tiny sprinkling of cars in what was once three massive series of freight X29's, we can't tell what numbers to use for BX's without photos, or at least the footnotes/exceptions to something like the 1943 ORPTE. 7. Many of these cars were originally converted from flatend revenue X29's. Some were converted from late-production X29's with a corrugated (dreadnought?) end (see PRR Color Guide 1, #2145 on p.74 and #4892 on p.75). I don't know if there's a pattern in the passenger number series or not. 8. Most freight X29's (but apparently not all) were converted at some time during their lives from the 3-panel door they were built with (CRECO?) to a "Youngstown low steel door" which is corrugated. Did any X29 passenger conversions run with the flat panel doors before changing to Youngstowns? Did any X29 BX's retain their flat panel doors into the 60's? 9. Some photos show the external 110v plug next to the door, most others don't. Is this an attribute of certain number series? 10. Some lettering arrangement drawings show route markings in roman on the otherwise empty upper left side of these cars. For example, the lettering might say "Columbus-Akron storage mail only"