From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Named freights Date: Fri, 21 Dec 101 13:31:40 -0500 (EST) Norm Bell scribit: > > I saw a reference to the "Ace" yesterday. Can anyone giove me any details > please? Also what name freights ran on the corridor between Zoo and > Trenton. Thank you, Norm Bell Norm et al., please see my pages at http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Frtsched/ for answers to all ofthese questions, and more ... at least for 1960. Jerry has also scanned a shorter version of the freight schedules for Keystone Crossings. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: [PRR] Atheard Mikado as PRR L-2 Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 02:21:43 +0000 >From Hank Englisch - Cal-Scale is advertising a superdetailing kit to make a PRR L-2 from an Athearn 2-8-2 Mikado (HO). Some questions - 1. Will the loco and S-D kit make up into a credible PRR representation? 2. Anyone have experience with this - if so what is your estimate of skill level required? 3. Would it be necessary to buy the undec, hi-headlight version,(#9011)in order to proceed? 4. Is the tender supplied with the loco the right PRR tender? 5. Any general comments will be much appreciated. HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL ! -HANK ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 02:41:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Bowser (MP54s) From: "M. E Allen" Or the Union Transportation Company, Tuckerton RR, NYS&W, Midland Continental, Piedmont and Northern, or the Washington Terminal Company. MEA On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:49:40 -0800 (PST) robert netzlof writes: > --- N2ICV[SMTP:N2ICV@home.com] said: > > Lets not forget the P-RSL. > > --- John Cooper wrote: > > Nor Penn Central > > and I add: > > 1) Ligonier Valley RR had one, and borrowed/rented > several for special events at Idlewild Park. > > 2) Once, sometime during WW2 saw a P-RSL MP-54 in a > Pittsburgh to Derry commuter train. > > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just > $8.95/month. > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] Atheard Mikado as PRR L-2 Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 15:04:37 -0000 Hank, It is worth looking at the photo on page 47 of "America's Workhorse Locomotive: the 2-8-2", to see if you think that the effort involved is worth it. I looked when the model first came out and decided that the differences such as they are,are far to minor. Glad Jul... Patrick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 2:21 AM Subject: [PRR] Atheard Mikado as PRR L-2 > >From Hank Englisch - Cal-Scale is advertising a > superdetailing kit to make a PRR L-2 from an Athearn > 2-8-2 Mikado (HO). Some questions - > 1. Will the loco and S-D kit make up into a credible PRR > representation? > 2. Anyone have experience with this - if so what is your > estimate of skill level required? > 3. Would it be necessary to buy the undec, hi-headlight > version,(#9011)in order to proceed? > 4. Is the tender supplied with the loco the right PRR > tender? > 5. Any general comments will be much appreciated. > > HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL ! -HANK > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "aidrian.bridgeman-sutton" Subject: Re: [PRR] Atheard Mikado as PRR L-2 Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 15:34:05 -0000 > 1. Will the loco and S-D kit make up into a credible PRR > representation? Without knowing the contents of the superdetailing kit, I wouln't want to comment.However the basic Athearn model will make up into a credible PRR engine with minimal work, so the kit should be too hard to work with > 2. Anyone have experience with this - if so what is your > estimate of skill level required? Based on typical detailing kits basic drilling, filing, gluing and painting skills will be needed. You'll find that the changes needed are pretty minimal - I can't help feeling this would be a really good starter project for a beginner. The most obvious change in service is that the smokebox front and door was changed to a more Pennsy-ish look with a small door and that distinctive headlight bracket and lamp. If you want to get more involved you can try scraping off some of the moulded pipes and fiitings and replacing them with wire and castings > 3. Would it be necessary to buy the undec, hi-headlight > version,(#9011)in order to proceed? I can't answer this one without knowing the makeup of the kit. If there is a new smokebox front and lamp bracket in the detailing kit then the headlight position is probably not going to be of huge importance, but get the footboard version. > 4. Is the tender supplied with the loco the right PRR > tender? Yes, but with a qualification. The few pictures I have seen of L-2 mikes suggest most, and possibly all, retained the USRA tenders throughout their lives. That qualification relates to the way that Athearn modelled the tender - it has high side sheets to the coal space which weren't really typical of these tenders. Some post war copies and the earliest (B&O) engine has a tender like this, but the more usual pattern had slightly lower sides to the coal space I also believe that this represents tender for a hand fired engine. The terminally fussy will find a Spectrum tender shell is a better bet for most purposes and can be purchased as a spare at about $15 odd. Aidrian ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 16:26:29 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Website Name Change To everyone interested. I have changed the name to my website to get rid of the annoying %20 that show up. From this moment on the website url is: www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htm I am sorry about the inconvenience but have had too many people tell me that they have had problems accessing the sight. I have added PH-10 train schedule to the site and a 1950 listing of icing stations on the Pennsylvania Railroad. Thanks, Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy Williamson Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 16:26:29 -0600 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Website Name Change To everyone interested. I have changed the name to my website to get rid of the annoying %20 that show up. From this moment on the website url is: www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htm I am sorry about the inconvenience but have had too many people tell me that they have had problems accessing the sight. I have added PH-10 train schedule to the site and a 1950 listing of icing stations on the Pennsylvania Railroad. Thanks, Randy ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> See What You've Been Missing! Amazing Wireless Video Camera. Click here http://us.click.yahoo.com/75YKVC/7.PDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WBKosin@aol.com Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 18:42:32 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/01/01 --part1_132.5918f66.293ac4e8_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/1/01 1:11:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > Good Morning, > > Sorry if this does not meet list requirements. I tried the Kalmbach > directory and it is down due to a possible hack. > > My daughter is in Vienna and trying hard to please her modeling Dad. Anyone > have an address or a line on a hobby shop in Vienna?? > > Tell your daughter to go to the front of St. Stephen's Cathederal (Stephansdom) and walk the street along the left side of the church ( where the horse drawn carriages are) . the hobby shop is a block or 2 down the street on the left hand side. Dave Kosin --part1_132.5918f66.293ac4e8_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/1/01 1:11:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes:


Good Morning,

Sorry if this does not meet list requirements. I tried the Kalmbach
directory and it is down due to a possible hack.

My daughter is in Vienna and trying hard to please her modeling Dad. Anyone
have an address or a line on a hobby shop in Vienna??



Tell your daughter to go to the front of St. Stephen's Cathederal (Stephansdom) and walk the street along the left side of the church ( where the horse drawn carriages are) . the hobby shop is a block or 2  down the street on the left hand side.
                                                                                                         Dave Kosin --part1_132.5918f66.293ac4e8_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] X31 boxcars Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 15:46:06 -0700 Hi List... Does anybody out there have any informtaion on which X31 boxcars had the inset roofs and which ones had the flush roofs? And how many of these cars had the National B-1 trucks installed (I do know about 70311...and I suspect it has an inset roof as well...) Bill Daniels Tuscan, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:06:20 -0500 From: bobp@tsc.com (Bob Poortinga) Subject: Re: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio "TJ LInk" writes: > Does anyone have any information or know anyone with information and or > photos of the roundhouse, yards or service facilities in Crestline, Ohio? Here are some photos I took in June '96. It was in pretty sad shape then and I'm sure it gotten worse. These are public accessible and you are not required to join Yahoo groups or the PennsyWest list to view them. -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Bloomington, Indiana US ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] X31 boxcars Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 02:23:36 -0600 Hi Bill--From The Keystone, March 1981-- Inset Roof: X31 (double door) 59862-60111, 60222-60721, 69500-69999 X31A (single door) 67400-68999, 70000-70399, 76400-81099 (double door) 69000-69499 Flush Roof: X31B (double door) 61100-62799 X31C (double door) 60800-61099, 62800-63309 These are the as-built numbers. Confusion, of course, comes with the X31A in both single and double doors. According to this info, 70311 would have had an inset roof. Can't help with the trucks. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 10:57:30 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Cutting Homasote From: Jerry Britton For the modelers out there, what is the best way to deal with the "frayed" edges created when you cut homasote? I planned to use sandpaper, but that seems to aggravate the situation. Is it the choice of blade for a jigsaw? I'm using a fairly course blade, as one would use for plywood. Would a fine blade produce less of a messy edge? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:25:20 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Cutting Homasote After trying various saw blades over the years I gave up and use sharp utility knives to cut Homasote. It takes multiple passes. It helps if you can start to bend the Homasote apart after the first cut or two, to relieve friction on the blade. It makes very clean cuts, no fuzz at all. BTW when I make track roadbed from Homasote, I make it a lot wider than seems necessary -- about 2-1/2" for an HO single track. This allows for the ballast profile, plus a flat section beyond the ballast that makes it easy to merge with scenery. Remember that the slope of ballast is about 1 in 2; much commercially sold roadbed appears entirely too steep. I also made some simple jigs to help create the ballast profile; these hold knife blades inside slots and the roadbed is drawn through to start the cuts for the profiles. Be careful when using knives! I once cut a small piece off the tip of my thumb when holding a long straightedge for the knife; my thumb overhung the straigtedge by 1/8 inch and --- chomp! Fortunately it healed. And on a tangent to a tangent, I once had a very puzzling short circuit on some hand-laid track. Eventually I had to pump a high current, maybe 10 amps, into the track to figure out where the short was, using a digital voltmeter to track the current by looking at the voltages along the rail. I couldn't believe it; the current seemed to disappear in the middle of a rail section. It developed that spikes on rails of different polarities had both contacted a piece of metal buried within the Homasote! One for the record book, I guess. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 10:31:17 -0600 From: Greg Johnson Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Cutting Homasote Jerry, Sears makes a very fine saber saw blade. It looks different from their other blades because every other tooth is short. It makes the finest cuts in wood and homosote that I have seen. I use a new box cutter blade or a single edge razor blade to shave the edges. If you are cutting in an area that is used for other purposes (i.e.- existing layout, kids play area, etc...), you may want to consider draping a large piece of drop cloth plastic over and around the area you are cutting in. It will help localize the "gray fuzz storm". Regards, Greg Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:57 AM Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Cutting Homasote > For the modelers out there, what is the best way to deal with the "frayed" > edges created when you cut homasote? > > I planned to use sandpaper, but that seems to aggravate the situation. > > Is it the choice of blade for a jigsaw? I'm using a fairly course blade, as > one would use for plywood. Would a fine blade produce less of a messy edge? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 16:31:38 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] Aero Train, From: Bill on 12/3/01 8:08 PM, Gary Mittner at mittner@webtv.net wrote: > > List, > > MTH has just released a very nice looking set of the PRR Aerotrain. > Set includes the Loco, 2 coaches and 1 tail car. Anyone know if you can > purchase individual cars, like 7 more coaches, to make the complete 10 > car set? TIA, Gary > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html Gary, As of now, MTH has not announced any additional cars. But knowing Mike and Andy Edleman (sales director), opportunities like that will not be passed up. They have announced additional cars for the Burlington Zephyr and the Union Pacific M1000 about a year after the additional release. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:32:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Cutting Homasote 0100,0100,0100On reflection, maybe this is not a "tangent" at all. Homasote is made in Trenton -- could they have been a PRR shipper? (Today their PO box is West Trenton, so they might've been a Reading customer, I suppose.) And it was first called (1909-1916) "Agasote;" the company first sold their product as panels for railroad passenger car roofs! See their website, homasote.com. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: [PRR] Proto PRR 2-8-8-2 Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 11:19:45 -0600 Does anybody known the minimum radius for this engine? thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 12:34:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Proto PRR 2-8-8-2 Norm, Proto says 18 in radius. Probably true. It is double articulated, Front drivers as well as rear drivers (unprototypical). I have ran one of mine on a club layout branchline and it is quite sharpe. Flawlesssssss...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Cutting Homasote Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 12:57:58 -0500 I have used the metal cutting / hacksaw blade to cut down on Homasote "dust". You do have to allow a little more time for the blade to cut the material. If you push on the saw to make it go faster (like I do), the blade will break. I always make sure I have an extra pack of the blades before I start - I tend to push the blade. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk LIST Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 10:57 AM Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Cutting Homasote > For the modelers out there, what is the best way to deal with the "frayed" > edges created when you cut homasote? > > I planned to use sandpaper, but that seems to aggravate the situation. > > Is it the choice of blade for a jigsaw? I'm using a fairly course blade, as > one would use for plywood. Would a fine blade produce less of a messy edge? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:08:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Aero Train, List, MTH has just released a very nice looking set of the PRR Aerotrain. Set includes the Loco, 2 coaches and 1 tail car. Anyone know if you can purchase individual cars, like 7 more coaches, to make the complete 10 car set? TIA, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 19:40:50 -0500 Just went to open the Crestline roundhouse pictures on the Yahoo site as mentioned in a post with an attachment, and it had a virus, so I nuked it. Someone might want to let Yahoo know - since I nuked the message I can't. By the way, if you update your virus program and scan for viruses weekly, and save all downloads to floppy disk and scan them before opening, you can pretty well avoid ever getting a virus. Works for me anyway - your mileage may vary . . . ! Thanks! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling downtown Williamsport & Renovo PA, WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Poortinga" To: Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 7:06 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio > "TJ LInk" writes: > > > Does anyone have any information or know anyone with information and or > > photos of the roundhouse, yards or service facilities in Crestline, Ohio? > > Here are some photos I took in June '96. It was in pretty sad shape then and > I'm sure it gotten worse. > > > > These are public accessible and you are not required to join Yahoo groups > or the PennsyWest list to view them. > > -- > Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) > Bloomington, Indiana US > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 22:53:23 -0500 From: bobp@tsc.com (Bob Poortinga) Subject: Re: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio "Bill Bigler" writes: > Just went to open the Crestline roundhouse pictures on the Yahoo site as > mentioned in a post with an attachment, and it had a virus, so I nuked it. > Someone might want to let Yahoo know - since I nuked the message I can't. I'm not sure what you are referring to as a 'post with an attachment'. My message did not contain any attachments and was incapable of being infected by a Windows virus because I use a Unix-based email program. I still have the copy of my message that was sent to the list and it contains no attachments. It is also impossible to spread a virus through an image. I suspect that Bill was already infected or was infected by another message. It is also possible that his anti-virus program triggered a false positive. If anyone else received an attachment with my message, I would be very interested in seeing it. -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Bloomington, Indiana US ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 22:55:51 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Update To My Website To all who might be interested: I have added the Philadelphia Region Local Arranged Freight Schedule to my website. http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htm Thanks, Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy Williamson Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 22:55:51 -0600 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Update To My Website To all who might be interested: I have added the Philadelphia Region Local Arranged Freight Schedule to my website. http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htm Thanks, Randy ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> See What You've Been Missing! Amazing Wireless Video Camera. Click here http://us.click.yahoo.com/75YKVC/7.PDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: MarkCFry@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 00:03:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Cutting Homasote --part1_160.4f9b405.293db32d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, there is a saber saw blade that is perfect for homosote. It has very fine teeth and creates a smooth edge when cut. The finer the teeth, the smoother the cut. It's almost like a utility knife blade for a saber saw. Mark In a message dated 12/3/01 11:36:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, greg1950@swbell.net writes: > Jerry, > > Sears makes a very fine saber saw blade. It looks different from their other > blades because every other tooth is short. It makes the finest cuts in wood > and homosote that I have seen. I use a new box cutter blade or a single edge > razor blade to shave the edges. > --part1_160.4f9b405.293db32d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Actually, there is a saber saw blade that is perfect for homosote.  It has very fine teeth and creates a smooth edge when cut.  The finer the teeth, the smoother the cut.  It's almost like a utility knife blade for a saber saw.

Mark

In a message dated 12/3/01 11:36:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, greg1950@swbell.net writes:


Jerry,

Sears makes a very fine saber saw blade. It looks different from their other
blades because every other tooth is short. It makes the finest cuts in wood
and homosote that I have seen. I use a new box cutter blade or a single edge
razor blade to shave the edges.


--part1_160.4f9b405.293db32d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:33:37 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Cutting Homasote --part1_c6.2c653b4.293e2ab1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry, A quick pass with the good old propane torch takes off all except the largest remnants of the cutting. Otherwise, seal it with primer then sand when dry. An almost dustless but slower way is to get a rubber/synthetic cutting blade for the jigsaw. This is a blade with a knife edge like the edge of a utility knife. But you have to go slow or it burns the edge off. Both Hansen and Vermont American brands offer these blades. I usually get mine at a Sentery Hardware store. I gave up on Homasote and use another pressed paper board called Upsom board. It comes with an upgrade paper covering on one side and is available in 1/8", 3/16" and 1/4" thicknesses. I have found it to hold spikes better than Homasote and can more easily be cut, with much less dust, with a utility knife. I glue it down then brush a sealer coat over it before setting the ties. Also, on the club's modular layout we us the 1/4" x 1" pine strip which is meant for tacking window screen to wood frame screen doors. The edges are filled with water putty to form the roadbed contour. Much more rugged than Homasote or Upsom board for layouts that are moved often plus very inexpensive and easy to work with. Good Luck, Evan Leisey --part1_c6.2c653b4.293e2ab1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry,  

  A quick pass with the good old propane torch takes off all except the largest remnants of the cutting.  Otherwise,  seal it with primer then sand when dry.

 An almost dustless but slower way is to get a rubber/synthetic cutting blade for the jigsaw.  This is a blade with a knife edge like the edge of a utility knife.   But you have to go slow or it burns the edge off.   Both Hansen and Vermont American brands offer these blades.  I usually get mine at a Sentery Hardware store.

 I gave up on Homasote and use another pressed paper board called Upsom board.  It comes with an upgrade paper covering on one side and is available in 1/8", 3/16" and 1/4" thicknesses.  I have found it to hold spikes better than Homasote and can more easily be cut, with much less dust, with a utility knife.  I glue it down then brush a sealer coat over it before setting the ties.  

 Also, on the club's modular layout we us the 1/4" x 1" pine strip which is meant for  tacking window screen to wood frame screen doors.  The edges are filled with water putty to form the roadbed contour.  Much more rugged than Homasote or Upsom board for layouts that are moved often plus very inexpensive and easy to work with.

 Good Luck,

 Evan Leisey --part1_c6.2c653b4.293e2ab1_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:49:38 -0500 WRT my Crestline virus message: I got your post on the pictures and when I went to open them, it took me to a Yahoo page with the pictures. The second picture in the left hand column triggered my virus program. I checked it several times and each time the virus program listed it as a message. I'm not sure where the attachment indicator appeared, but I do remember one associated with that message. At age 61 however, it could certainly be partzheimers. If you find anything more, please let me know; I'll do likewise. By the way, I'd like to see the Crestline pictures, so would you please forward your original post to me? TIA Thanks for your patience! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling downtown Williamsport & Renovo PA, WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Poortinga" To: Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 10:53 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio > "Bill Bigler" writes: > > > Just went to open the Crestline roundhouse pictures on the Yahoo site as > > mentioned in a post with an attachment, and it had a virus, so I nuked it. > > Someone might want to let Yahoo know - since I nuked the message I can't. > > I'm not sure what you are referring to as a 'post with an attachment'. My > message did not contain any attachments and was incapable of being infected > by a Windows virus because I use a Unix-based email program. I still have > the copy of my message that was sent to the list and it contains no > attachments. It is also impossible to spread a virus through an image. > > I suspect that Bill was already infected or was infected by another message. > It is also possible that his anti-virus program triggered a false positive. > > If anyone else received an attachment with my message, I would be very > interested in seeing it. > > -- > Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) > Bloomington, Indiana US > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Cutting Homasote Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:05:45 -0600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C17C9A.7A277AA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just started using the pine strip also. I get it at Menards in 1/2" = by 16' lengths. My method is to put down an entire sheet of homasote = and then tack the pine strip down with brads. My only concern is that I = find it a little high for my liking. In the past I have put down the = sheet of homasote and ripped cheap paneling into one inch strips. The = I slot the strips on a radial arm saw about every inch. This allows 30" = radius curves with ease. One sheet of paneling yields 48 pieces 8' long = (384 linear feet) and allows easier transitions into yards and = industrial sidings. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: RDG2124@aol.com=20 To: jerry@pennsyrr.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 7:33 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Cutting Homasote Jerry, =20 A quick pass with the good old propane torch takes off all except = the largest remnants of the cutting. Otherwise, seal it with primer = then sand when dry.=20 An almost dustless but slower way is to get a rubber/synthetic = cutting blade for the jigsaw. This is a blade with a knife edge like = the edge of a utility knife. But you have to go slow or it burns the = edge off. Both Hansen and Vermont American brands offer these blades. = I usually get mine at a Sentery Hardware store.=20 I gave up on Homasote and use another pressed paper board called = Upsom board. It comes with an upgrade paper covering on one side and is = available in 1/8", 3/16" and 1/4" thicknesses. I have found it to hold = spikes better than Homasote and can more easily be cut, with much less = dust, with a utility knife. I glue it down then brush a sealer coat = over it before setting the ties. =20 Also, on the club's modular layout we us the 1/4" x 1" pine strip = which is meant for tacking window screen to wood frame screen doors. = The edges are filled with water putty to form the roadbed contour. Much = more rugged than Homasote or Upsom board for layouts that are moved = often plus very inexpensive and easy to work with.=20 Good Luck,=20 Evan Leisey=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C17C9A.7A277AA0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I just started using the pine strip = also.  I=20 get it at Menards in 1/2" by 16' lengths.  My method is to put down = an=20 entire sheet of homasote and then tack the pine strip down with = brads.  My=20 only concern is that I find it a little high for my liking. In the past = I have=20 put down the sheet of homasote and ripped cheap paneling into one inch=20 strips.  The  I slot the strips on a radial arm saw about = every=20 inch.  This allows 30" radius curves with ease.  One sheet of = paneling=20 yields 48 pieces 8' long (384 linear feet) and allows easier transitions = into=20 yards and industrial sidings.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 RDG2124@aol.com=20
To: jerry@pennsyrr.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, December 04, = 2001 7:33=20 AM
Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - = Cutting=20 Homasote

Jerry, =  =20

  A quick pass with the good old propane torch takes = off all=20 except the largest remnants of the cutting.  Otherwise, =  seal it=20 with primer then sand when dry.

 An almost dustless but = slower=20 way is to get a rubber/synthetic cutting blade for the jigsaw. =  This is a=20 blade with a knife edge like the edge of a utility knife. =   But you=20 have to go slow or it burns the edge off.   Both Hansen and = Vermont=20 American brands offer these blades.  I usually get mine at a = Sentery=20 Hardware store.

 I gave up on Homasote and use another = pressed=20 paper board called Upsom board.  It comes with an upgrade paper = covering=20 on one side and is available in 1/8", 3/16" and 1/4" thicknesses. =  I have=20 found it to hold spikes better than Homasote and can more easily be = cut, with=20 much less dust, with a utility knife.  I glue it down then brush = a sealer=20 coat over it before setting the ties.  

 Also, on = the club's=20 modular layout we us the 1/4" x 1" pine strip which is meant for =  tacking=20 window screen to wood frame screen doors.  The edges are filled = with=20 water putty to form the roadbed contour.  Much more rugged than = Homasote=20 or Upsom board for layouts that are moved often plus very inexpensive = and easy=20 to work with.

 Good Luck,

 Evan = Leisey=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C17C9A.7A277AA0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 09:13:24 -0500 Subject: TANGENT- Viruses (was Re: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio) From: Jerry Britton Sounds like the list has been exonerated of spreading a virus, that the virus came from an image on a Yahoo web site. If the exoneration of the list is not correct, let me know. One comment indicated that a virus cannot be spread via an image. Well, not true. It's actually the web page itself that can spread a virus. This is pretty new, and most folks don't know about it. If the server is based on Microsoft ISS, there is a server virus that can propagate several ways, and one of them is via an infected web page. There are several variants of this virus, but the class is called "nimda"..."Admin" spelled backwards. That is what you need to protect against. Enough about viruses...back to the PRR! On 12/4/01 8:49 AM, Bill Bigler (wbigler@stny.rr.com) wrote: > WRT my Crestline virus message: I got your post on the pictures and when I > went to open them, it took me to a Yahoo page with the pictures. The second > picture in the left hand column triggered my virus program. I checked it > several times and each time the virus program listed it as a message. > > I'm not sure where the attachment indicator appeared, but I do remember one > associated with that message. At age 61 however, it could certainly be > partzheimers. > > If you find anything more, please let me know; I'll do likewise. > > By the way, I'd like to see the Crestline pictures, so would you please > forward your original post to me? TIA > > Thanks for your patience! > > Bill Bigler > Big Flats NY > Modeling downtown Williamsport & > Renovo PA, WWII > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Poortinga" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 10:53 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio > > >> "Bill Bigler" writes: >> >>> Just went to open the Crestline roundhouse pictures on the Yahoo site as >>> mentioned in a post with an attachment, and it had a virus, so I nuked > it. >>> Someone might want to let Yahoo know - since I nuked the message I > can't. >> >> I'm not sure what you are referring to as a 'post with an attachment'. My >> message did not contain any attachments and was incapable of being > infected >> by a Windows virus because I use a Unix-based email program. I still have >> the copy of my message that was sent to the list and it contains no >> attachments. It is also impossible to spread a virus through an image. >> >> I suspect that Bill was already infected or was infected by another > message. >> It is also possible that his anti-virus program triggered a false > positive. >> >> If anyone else received an attachment with my message, I would be very >> interested in seeing it. >> >> -- >> Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) >> Bloomington, Indiana US >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. >> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmaster ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:33:47 EST Subject: [PRR] Homasote sawdust In a message dated 12/4/01 1:11:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << For the modelers out there, what is the best way to deal with the "frayed" edges created when you cut homasote? I planned to use sandpaper, but that seems to aggravate the situation. Is it the choice of blade for a jigsaw? I'm using a fairly course blade, as one would use for plywood. Would a fine blade produce less of a messy edge? >> Using a sawblade on Homasote will fill your heating system's ducts up with a fine grey powder (ask me how I know). You want to aquire a knife blade for your saber saw (buy two blades for starters). And in use on halfinch Homosote, pause frequently so it doesn't overheat and ruin its temper. This will give you a polished edge that doesn't shed the rest of its life, and which in fact absorbs less water than the normal Homosote surface. When you need to make small cuts, multiple passes with a carton knife will do nicely. If you're extremely brave and/or foolish, use a butcher knife. But watch your knees and other body parts -- knives slip. Homosote's great stuff -- Homosote sawdust isn't. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tower Sheets Online Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 12:07:05 -0500 Tower Sheets precipitated the use of the term, "OS." Every train that passed a tower/interlocking plant had to be fully-recorded, as Jerry outlined. Thus, a train was "OS'ed" by each tower. In other words, its pertinent information was written by the Operator ON the tower's SHEET. We use the term on our website to note significant moves passing us on the NS and CSX. Terry Stuart The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP Railfan B&B 62 Beaver Street Fallston, PA 15066 www.forcomm.net/flagstop -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 4:15 PM Subject: [PRR] Tower Sheets Online >For those that have never seen a Tower Sheet, prepare to be amazed at the >amount of information that may be gleened from one. > >Each tower maintained a Tower Sheet, akin to a ledger, that recorded the >passing of every train over a 24 hour period. > >Each entry would include the numbers of the motive power, the number of >cars, the time of passing, and all sorts of other notes. > >Thanks to David Hopson, Keystone Crossings is starting a collection of Tower >Sheets online. The first four are posted in the Documents section... > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/ > >They are > > LEMO 6/9/67 > LEMO 6/10/67 > THORN 1/1/64 > THORN 1/2/64 > >I am working on a full-size Dispatcher Sheet for the Philadelphia Division >from the 1950's. > >Thanks, Dave! >----------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: TANGENT- Viruses (was Re: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 10:04:43 -0800 From: "John Cooper" Incorrect, the server itself that is running IIS is vulnerable to the the Nimda virus. Not the client accessing pages from it. johncoop@microsoft.com > ---------- > From: Jerry Britton[SMTP:jerry@pennsyrr.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 6:13 AM > To: Bill Bigler; bobp@tsc.com; PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: TANGENT- Viruses (was Re: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio) > > One comment indicated that a virus cannot be spread via an image. Well, not > true. It's actually the web page itself that can spread a virus. This is > pretty new, and most folks don't know about it. If the server is based on > Microsoft ISS, there is a server virus that can propagate several ways, and > one of them is via an infected web page. > > There are several variants of this virus, but the class is called > "nimda"..."Admin" spelled backwards. That is what you need to protect > against. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 13:13:30 -0500 Subject: Re: TANGENT- Viruses (was Re: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio) From: Jerry Britton On 12/4/01 1:04 PM, John Cooper (johncoop@microsoft.com) wrote: > Incorrect, the server itself that is running IIS is vulnerable to the the > Nimda virus. Not the client accessing pages from it. > > johncoop@microsoft.com > Incorrect, and I have worked direct with the FBI on this one. It is IIS that is vulnerable to the nimda virus, but it can indeed be propagated via an infected web page (served by an infected IIS server). I know, as I experienced it first-hand hours before CERT, SARC, the NIPC, the FBI, and other agencies knew it existed. In fact, I reported it myself to the local FBI Special Agent. Ironically, the site I was browsing when I encountered it was NIPC (National Infrastructure Protection Center). Being on a Mac, however, it was harmless to me. Please refer to CERT Advisory CA-2001-26: http://www.cert.org/advisories/CA-2001-26.html In the Overview section it details five methods through which nimda propagates. The third one reads "from web server to client via browsing of compromised web sites". Enough said, on-list. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BlockTruck@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 13:34:25 EST Subject: [PRR] FP-7 4359 in brass After the recent discussion here about the one-of-a-kind FP-7, and the article in the newest Diesel Era showing the unit with its FT nose replacement, I have learned that they are being imported in HO brass. Division Point model DP-2098 is due in April 2002. I know there is a certain sense of being disenfranchised when something is not available in plastic, but you kind of have to expect a one-of-a kind prototype like this to lend itself to brass. If you don't have place to get Division Point, you can visit DivisionPoint.com and I am sure they can find you somebody. George T. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 13:36:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] New Keystone List, Received the winter issue of the Keystone yesterday. There is a good follow up article on the T1. Slippery T1's is the topic. Includes technical info on the slipping drivers. It appears to me after all is said, the experience of the engineer is the main reason. Nice insert as well. The lettering diagram for the T1.......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 15:55:20 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Tower Sheets Online From: Jerry Britton For those that have never seen a Tower Sheet, prepare to be amazed at the amount of information that may be gleened from one. Each tower maintained a Tower Sheet, akin to a ledger, that recorded the passing of every train over a 24 hour period. Each entry would include the numbers of the motive power, the number of cars, the time of passing, and all sorts of other notes. Thanks to David Hopson, Keystone Crossings is starting a collection of Tower Sheets online. The first four are posted in the Documents section... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/ They are LEMO 6/9/67 LEMO 6/10/67 THORN 1/1/64 THORN 1/2/64 I am working on a full-size Dispatcher Sheet for the Philadelphia Division from the 1950's. Thanks, Dave! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 15:37:34 -0800 (PST) From: CHUCK S Subject: Re: TANGENT- Viruses (was Re: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio) At this point it pays to have your anti-virus program up to date and working. i did the same thing and had no alert--Does not AOL & Yahoo screen for bugs? --- Jerry Britton wrote: > Sounds like the list has been exonerated of > spreading a virus, that the > virus came from an image on a Yahoo web site. If the > exoneration of the list > is not correct, let me know. > > One comment indicated that a virus cannot be spread > via an image. Well, not > true. It's actually the web page itself that can > spread a virus. This is > pretty new, and most folks don't know about it. If > the server is based on > Microsoft ISS, there is a server virus that can > propagate several ways, and > one of them is via an infected web page. > > There are several variants of this virus, but the > class is called > "nimda"..."Admin" spelled backwards. That is what > you need to protect > against. > > Enough about viruses...back to the PRR! > > On 12/4/01 8:49 AM, Bill Bigler > (wbigler@stny.rr.com) wrote: > > > WRT my Crestline virus message: I got your post > on the pictures and when I > > went to open them, it took me to a Yahoo page with > the pictures. The second > > picture in the left hand column triggered my virus > program. I checked it > > several times and each time the virus program > listed it as a message. > > > > I'm not sure where the attachment indicator > appeared, but I do remember one > > associated with that message. At age 61 however, > it could certainly be > > partzheimers. > > > > If you find anything more, please let me know; > I'll do likewise. > > > > By the way, I'd like to see the Crestline > pictures, so would you please > > forward your original post to me? TIA > > > > Thanks for your patience! > > > > Bill Bigler > > Big Flats NY > > Modeling downtown Williamsport & > > Renovo PA, WWII > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bob Poortinga" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 10:53 PM > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio > > > > > >> "Bill Bigler" writes: > >> > >>> Just went to open the Crestline roundhouse > pictures on the Yahoo site as > >>> mentioned in a post with an attachment, and it > had a virus, so I nuked > > it. > >>> Someone might want to let Yahoo know - since I > nuked the message I > > can't. > >> > >> I'm not sure what you are referring to as a 'post > with an attachment'. My > >> message did not contain any attachments and was > incapable of being > > infected > >> by a Windows virus because I use a Unix-based > email program. I still have > >> the copy of my message that was sent to the list > and it contains no > >> attachments. It is also impossible to spread a > virus through an image. > >> > >> I suspect that Bill was already infected or was > infected by another > > message. > >> It is also possible that his anti-virus program > triggered a false > > positive. > >> > >> If anyone else received an attachment with my > message, I would be very > >> interested in seeing it. > >> > >> -- > >> Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) > >> Bloomington, Indiana US > >> > >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. > >> > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit > http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, Listmaster > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson PRR/ Penn Central Art) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:12:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Tower Sheets Online Hello PRR fans, I hope you guys enjoy the PRR Tower and Dispatcher Sheets as much as I do. It's hard to imagine that PRR was able to keep track of all those trains and keep them from running into each other. My ultimate find was the ZOO dispatch sheets. Because of the amount of traffic through ZOO interlocking, freights and passenger trains are on seperate sheets. The ZOO dispatch sheet for freights also includes the Trenton Cutoff/P&T Branch trains and all freights crossing the Deleware River to Camden NJ. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GPandelios@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 22:19:51 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Round roof & no doors David & List: I've uploaded a bunch of Weirton Steel, Weirton Jct, and Ohio River PRR bridge photos to Jerry. Hopefully he'll be able to get them onto Keystone Crossings soon. In the meantime, check out: http://hometown.aol.com/gpandelios/myhomepage/collection.html George (yes, I missed this post ;^) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Washingtonian/Montrealer Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 08:38:49 -0500 Listers, My friend models northern New England railroads (B&M/Rutland etc). He mentioned that the Montrealer continued on to Washington on the PRR as the Washingtonian. We want to know whether there was any PRR equipment on the Montrealer. It will give me a great excuse to run my PRR stuff on his layout! Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:06:05 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Cutting Homasote --part1_129.8bd42e2.293f83cd_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/4/2001 7:18:12 AM Mountain Standard Time, cadwelml@bp.com writes: > PRR-Talk@dsop.com > I have had swelling with both but the Homasote was the most extreme. Our club went to North Platte, Nebraska for the NMRA regional with our modular layout. The modules live in Denver, Colorado and the change of humidity turned my 2' x 8' staging yard modules into an ocean-like surface (take note if you want to model water with swells) very wavy! Once home and the swelling disappeared the track was removed and the Homasote was sealed with latex primer then two coats of latex paint. Subsequent trips to humid areas have not exhibited the swelling. The Upsom board also was sealed with varnish and have not had any swelling problems. The swelling was just barely noticeable prior to the sealing. Bottom line -- a moisture proof sealer is necessary. Also, the sealer is applied an inch or two each side of the roadbed. Evan --part1_129.8bd42e2.293f83cd_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 12/4/2001 7:18:12 AM Mountain Standard Time, cadwelml@bp.com writes:


PRR-Talk@dsop.com

 I have had swelling with both but the Homasote was the most extreme.  Our club went to North Platte, Nebraska for the NMRA regional with our modular layout.  The modules live in Denver, Colorado and the change of humidity turned my 2' x 8' staging yard modules into an ocean-like surface (take note if you want to model water with swells) very wavy!   Once home and the swelling disappeared the track was removed and the Homasote was sealed with latex primer then two coats of latex paint.  Subsequent trips to humid areas have not exhibited the swelling.   

  The Upsom board also was sealed with varnish and have not had any swelling problems.  The swelling was just barely noticeable prior to the sealing.

  Bottom line -- a moisture proof sealer is necessary.  Also,  the sealer is applied an inch or two each side of the roadbed.

 Evan
--part1_129.8bd42e2.293f83cd_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Washingtonian/Montrealer Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:34:24 -0500 Chris:- I personally rode in a PRR P70 coach from Penn Station, NY, to Montreal, PQ on the "Montrealer" in 1956. The car had two groups of passengers on special tickets - a railfan group and some French speaking Belgian immigrants enroute to Canada, so it was an "added" car and not part of the regular consist. But, it WAS a PRR car. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chany, Christopher" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 8:38 AM Subject: [PRR] Washingtonian/Montrealer > Listers, > > My friend models northern New England railroads (B&M/Rutland etc). He > mentioned that the Montrealer continued on to Washington on the PRR as the > Washingtonian. We want to know whether there was any PRR equipment on the > Montrealer. It will give me a great excuse to run my PRR stuff on his > layout! > > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 09:54:05 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Washingtonian/Montrealer While I can not claim any definitive source, I am reasonably confidant that PRR coaches (P70Ks would be the likely choice) and sleepers (Betterment HWs?) ran through to Montreal on frequent occasions. I am also under the impression that PRR diners never ran through and that the lounge car was NH. BTW the train was called the "Montrealer" over its entire Wash-Montreal Northbound route, and the "Washingtonian" southbound. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Chany, Christopher" wrote: > Listers, > > My friend models northern New England railroads (B&M/Rutland etc). He > mentioned that the Montrealer continued on to Washington on the PRR as the > Washingtonian. We want to know whether there was any PRR equipment on the > Montrealer. It will give me a great excuse to run my PRR stuff on his > layout! > > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 09:37:29 -0600 Subject: [PRR] PRR: GLa hoppers From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" I finally had a chance to get into the GLa hoppers I bought and spent a lot of time looking for details and reading Teichmoller's treatise. One prominent feature of both the GLa and H12a is the AB reservoir bracket mounted to the side sill. While I like detailing things, the idea of making a lot of these out of 15/64 styrene channel does not sound like a lot of fun. Does anyone make the brackets in either styrene or metal? I've not seen them in the catalogues. Also, exactly what was the brake lever hanger shape and how was it mounted? On p. 27 of Teichmoller's book there is a side shot of a GLa and the hanger looks looks an elbow with the two ends attached to the slope sheet and the brake lever pivoting at the elbow, but in some other photos it looks like there is a wire or thick tube from the end vertical to the slope sheet. p. 33 has an excellent modeling detail photo of an H21a B end, showing the piping from the reservoir to the valve, but the piston and hanger bracket are in shadow. Bruce Smith commented negatively on the coal load provided. Actually with a little work you can make these look OK. Sand down the sides so the can be removed easily. Glue florist's foam or some other filler between the humps and sculpt to suit yourself. Grind down the peaks a little if you want. Then spread Elmer's glue all over the surface, making sure to wipe it off the sides. Place the coal load in a box and cover it with coal of the size you prefer. Leave it overnight. Next morning you have a reasonable facsimile of a coal load. And they can all be different if you so choose. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] TANGENT - Cutting Homasote Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 11:58:10 -0500 Evan and all, Homasote is a product made from ground up newspaper. It is very succeptable to changes in humidity. I have used it, and "Homabed", a homasote roadbed product with great success. The trick is to seal it immediately after you put it into place. I use cheap latex wall paint and this seems to do the trick. Just slop it on with a brush, cover everything you can, let it dry a day or two, and you're all set. I'm from South Jersey and the humidity down here gets pretty unbearable in the Summer months. So far, no problems at all. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: RDG2124@aol.com [mailto:RDG2124@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:06 AM To: cadwelml@bp.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Cutting Homasote In a message dated 12/4/2001 7:18:12 AM Mountain Standard Time, cadwelml@bp.com writes: PRR-Talk@dsop.com I have had swelling with both but the Homasote was the most extreme. Our club went to North Platte, Nebraska for the NMRA regional with our modular layout. The modules live in Denver, Colorado and the change of humidity turned my 2' x 8' staging yard modules into an ocean-like surface (take note if you want to model water with swells) very wavy! Once home and the swelling disappeared the track was removed and the Homasote was sealed with latex primer then two coats of latex paint. Subsequent trips to humid areas have not exhibited the swelling. The Upsom board also was sealed with varnish and have not had any swelling problems. The swelling was just barely noticeable prior to the sealing. Bottom line -- a moisture proof sealer is necessary. Also, the sealer is applied an inch or two each side of the roadbed. Evan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 11:20:11 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: GLa hoppers Don sez: >One prominent feature of both the GLa and H12a [sic] is the AB reservoir >bracket >mounted to the side sill. While I like detailing things, the idea of making >a lot of these out of 15/64 styrene channel does not sound like a lot of >fun. Does anyone make the brackets in either styrene or metal? I've not >seen them in the catalogues. My suggestion is to make one set, and then a mold, and cast the rest in rsin - very easy...I'll be happy to help, if it means I get 24 sets of the part!! >Bruce Smith commented negatively on the coal load provided. Actually with a >little work you can make these look OK. Sand down the sides so the can be >removed easily. Glue florist's foam or some other filler between the humps >and sculpt to suit yourself. Grind down the peaks a little if you want. >Then spread Elmer's glue all over the surface, making sure to wipe it off >the sides. Place the coal load in a box and cover it with coal of the size >you prefer. Leave it overnight. Next morning you have a reasonable >facsimile of a coal load. And they can all be different if you so choose. Sure , or you can toss the coal load, start with the florist foam and save a sanding step ;^)> BTW, Don's reminder about coal size is great - remember that not all coal was the same, so mix it up some! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Cutting Homasote Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 11:28:55 -0600 There has to be more to this Homasote problem than just humidity. I have built railroads in basements in Philadelphia, Detroit and Chicago areas and have never had a problem with unsealed homasote. Maybe I have just been lucky but I sense there is an additional factor we are overlooking in blaming it all on humidity. It seems to me it would take an extaordinary amount of humidity for homasote to absorb enough to change dimensions to the amount we are talking about. Norm Bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Burnley, Charles" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 10:58 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] TANGENT - Cutting Homasote > Evan and all, > > Homasote is a product made from ground up newspaper. It is very succeptable > to changes in humidity. > I have used it, and "Homabed", a homasote roadbed product with great > success. The trick is to seal it > immediately after you put it into place. I use cheap latex wall paint and > this seems to do the trick. Just > slop it on with a brush, cover everything you can, let it dry a day or two, > and you're all set. I'm from South > Jersey and the humidity down here gets pretty unbearable in the Summer > months. So far, no problems at all. > > Buzz > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RDG2124@aol.com [mailto:RDG2124@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:06 AM > To: cadwelml@bp.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Cutting Homasote > > > > In a message dated 12/4/2001 7:18:12 AM Mountain Standard Time, > cadwelml@bp.com writes: > > > > > PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > > > I have had swelling with both but the Homasote was the most extreme. Our > club went to North Platte, Nebraska for the NMRA regional with our modular > layout. The modules live in Denver, Colorado and the change of humidity > turned my 2' x 8' staging yard modules into an ocean-like surface (take note > if you want to model water with swells) very wavy! Once home and the > swelling disappeared the track was removed and the Homasote was sealed with > latex primer then two coats of latex paint. Subsequent trips to humid areas > have not exhibited the swelling. > > The Upsom board also was sealed with varnish and have not had any swelling > problems. The swelling was just barely noticeable prior to the sealing. > > Bottom line -- a moisture proof sealer is necessary. Also, the sealer is > applied an inch or two each side of the roadbed. > > Evan > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: GLa hoppers Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 11:31:05 -0600 One of the best materials I have run accross for coal is and abrasive grit used in sand blasting called Black beauty. It is a good size for HO and a 50# bag should fill several hundred hoppers. Norm bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." To: Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 11:20 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: GLa hoppers > Don sez: > > >One prominent feature of both the GLa and H12a [sic] is the AB reservoir > >bracket > >mounted to the side sill. While I like detailing things, the idea of making > >a lot of these out of 15/64 styrene channel does not sound like a lot of > >fun. Does anyone make the brackets in either styrene or metal? I've not > >seen them in the catalogues. > > My suggestion is to make one set, and then a mold, and cast the rest in > rsin - very easy...I'll be happy to help, if it means I get 24 sets of the > part!! > > >Bruce Smith commented negatively on the coal load provided. Actually with a > >little work you can make these look OK. Sand down the sides so the can be > >removed easily. Glue florist's foam or some other filler between the humps > >and sculpt to suit yourself. Grind down the peaks a little if you want. > >Then spread Elmer's glue all over the surface, making sure to wipe it off > >the sides. Place the coal load in a box and cover it with coal of the size > >you prefer. Leave it overnight. Next morning you have a reasonable > >facsimile of a coal load. And they can all be different if you so choose. > > Sure , or you can toss the coal load, start with the florist foam and > save a sanding step ;^)> BTW, Don's reminder about coal size is great - > remember that not all coal was the same, so mix it up some! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 11:38:17 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Tower Sheets Online Dave sez: > I hope you guys enjoy the PRR Tower and Dispatcher Sheets as much >as I do. FANTASTIC! was my response > My ultimate find was the ZOO dispatch sheets. Because of the amount >of traffic through ZOO interlocking, freights and passenger trains are >on seperate sheets. The ZOO dispatch sheet for freights also includes >the Trenton Cutoff/P&T Branch trains and all freights crossing the >Deleware River to Camden NJ. My ultimate would be COLA, 1944, but I would love to see a wartime sheet from THORN. I look forward to seeing more sheets posted in the future! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: [PRR] GLa Question Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 11:39:13 -0600 Hi List, On the GLa hopper are the cross braces (the braces that go from side to side on the inside of the hopper) the same as on the H21. If they are the same I was going to order these from Bowser to detail the Gla's I have. I'd like that AB reservoir bracket also (allot of them). Anyone listening willing to make a master for the H21 and GLa cast these? Peter Reinhold Universal Die & Stampings 735 15th Street Prairie Du Sac, WI. 53578 PH. 608-643-2477 Fax 608-643-2024 preinhol@unidie.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: [PRR] Rail sizes Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 11:39:39 -0600 Hi List, I'm modeling Southport yard, Elmira, NY, and have made the following observations from photos and a 1951 track chart. 1. The rail size coming into the yard is 130 LB. (track chart). 2. The turnouts seen to be 130 LB. (photos) 3. The main trackage and switching leads look like 130 LB. (photos) 4. The body tracks look to be lighter rail (photos) Also, I found that the passing sidings look to be laid in the same weight rail as the main. This would make sense when you consider the traffic on the Elmira Branch. Can anyone comment on PRR practices in general as the relate to my observations. Also, anyone know what weight rail should be used for industrial sidings, 90-110 LB would be my guess. Peter Reinhold preinhol@unidie.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 13:04:42 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: GLa hoppers I had a problem with the lack of cross braces in the kit (why not with this kit, but with the H21?). But Bowser sells 'em for $.35 ea. so there seems to be a solution. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 12:39:53 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Rail sizes From: "William J. Ayers" Peter, According to my sources, when the yards were built in Crestline in 1918-20, all the yard track and turnouts (#8 and 10) were 100# rail. I can't comment on the leads going into the yards. Hope this helps. Bill Ayers > From: Peter Reinhold > Organization: Universal Die & Stampings > Reply-To: "preinhol@unidie.com" > Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 11:39:39 -0600 > To: "PRR-Talk (E-mail)" > Subject: [PRR] Rail sizes > > Hi List, > > I'm modeling Southport yard, Elmira, NY, and have made the following > observations from photos and a 1951 track chart. > 1. The rail size coming into the yard is 130 LB. (track chart). > 2. The turnouts seen to be 130 LB. (photos) > 3. The main trackage and switching leads look like 130 LB. (photos) > 4. The body tracks look to be lighter rail (photos) > > Also, I found that the passing sidings look to be laid in the same > weight rail as the main. This would make sense when you consider the > traffic on the Elmira Branch. > > Can anyone comment on PRR practices in general as the relate to my > observations. Also, anyone know what weight rail should be used for > industrial sidings, 90-110 LB would be my guess. > > Peter Reinhold > preinhol@unidie.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: [PRR] Containers Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 19:19:56 -0000 I noticed that Walthers say they are going to do two types of container. http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2102 http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2122 Are they realistic for the PRR and when were they in use?? Patrick Grace ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 13:33:46 -0600 From: Greg Johnson Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Cutting Homasote Ditto on the unsealed homosote. I have used it here on the Gulf Coast for 30 years without a problem. Two garage layouts, susceptible to near 100% relative humidity at times, as well as interior layouts, showed no ill effects. Perhaps the wood is more susceptible to dimensional instability than the homosote. Regards, Greg Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Norm Bell" To: "Prr-Talk" ; "Burnley, Charles" Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 11:28 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Cutting Homasote > There has to be more to this Homasote problem than just humidity. I have > built railroads in basements in Philadelphia, Detroit and Chicago areas and > have never had a problem with unsealed homasote. Maybe I have just been > lucky but I sense there is an additional factor we are overlooking in > blaming it all on humidity. It seems to me it would take an extaordinary > amount of humidity for homasote to absorb enough to change dimensions to the > amount we are talking about. Norm Bell > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Burnley, Charles" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 10:58 AM > Subject: RE: [PRR] TANGENT - Cutting Homasote > > > > Evan and all, > > > > Homasote is a product made from ground up newspaper. It is very > succeptable > > to changes in humidity. > > I have used it, and "Homabed", a homasote roadbed product with great > > success. The trick is to seal it > > immediately after you put it into place. I use cheap latex wall paint and > > this seems to do the trick. Just > > slop it on with a brush, cover everything you can, let it dry a day or > two, > > and you're all set. I'm from South > > Jersey and the humidity down here gets pretty unbearable in the Summer > > months. So far, no problems at all. > > > > Buzz > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: RDG2124@aol.com [mailto:RDG2124@aol.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:06 AM > > To: cadwelml@bp.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Cutting Homasote > > > > > > > > In a message dated 12/4/2001 7:18:12 AM Mountain Standard Time, > > cadwelml@bp.com writes: > > > > > > > > > > PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > > > > > > > I have had swelling with both but the Homasote was the most extreme. Our > > club went to North Platte, Nebraska for the NMRA regional with our modular > > layout. The modules live in Denver, Colorado and the change of humidity > > turned my 2' x 8' staging yard modules into an ocean-like surface (take > note > > if you want to model water with swells) very wavy! Once home and the > > swelling disappeared the track was removed and the Homasote was sealed > with > > latex primer then two coats of latex paint. Subsequent trips to humid > areas > > have not exhibited the swelling. > > > > The Upsom board also was sealed with varnish and have not had any > swelling > > problems. The swelling was just barely noticeable prior to the sealing. > > > > Bottom line -- a moisture proof sealer is necessary. Also, the sealer > is > > applied an inch or two each side of the roadbed. > > > > Evan > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 14:34:35 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Containers From: Jerry Britton On 12/5/01 2:19 PM, pgrace (pgrace@aspects.net) wrote: > I noticed that Walthers say they are going to do two types > of container. > > http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2102 > > http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2122 > > Are they realistic for the PRR and when were they in use?? > I am far from being a PRR container expert, but they are unlike anything I have seen. Two issues of "The Keystone" have articles on PRR container service: Spring 1985 (V. 18 #1) and Autumn 1985 (V.18 #3). I personally don't have either, but they are listed in the searchable periodicals index on Keystone Crossings... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/periodicals/ Suggest you find a copy and look there. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 15:29:06 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Containers 2122 looks familiar. I can not be sure. There was a KEYSTONE article on containers some years ago. I will have to go back and check. BTW I hope the $10.95 price is for a set of containers and not each! A G22 gon (which Walthers does NOT make but Westerfield does) held 12 as I recall. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== pgrace wrote: > I noticed that Walthers say they are going to do two types > of container. > > http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2102 > > http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2122 > > Are they realistic for the PRR and when were they in use?? > > Patrick Grace > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Containers Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 15:35:51 -0500 They might be realistic. The PRR had at least 10 classes of bulk containers like these. I have diagrams for the various container classes the PRR used on my site. Check out http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=cont The first one you list looks similar to an HB4: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=hb4.gif&sel=cont Westerfield makes a carload of HB4's for their G22 kit. They look similar but have an end brace that the Walthers kit doesn't have: (Westerfield's site has some background info & history too...) http://users.multipro.com/westerfield/1292.htm I'm not sure about the second one. You can browse the diagrsms and see if there's something that looks close. Westerfield also makes a similar cement container, class HB1. http://users.multipro.com/westerfield/1290.htm Note that the equipment diagrams on my site are only sketches of what the containers look like... Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of pgrace > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 2:20 PM > To: PRR Talk > Subject: [PRR] Containers > > > I noticed that Walthers say they are going to do two types > of container. > > http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2102 > > http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2122 > > Are they realistic for the PRR and when were they in use?? > > Patrick Grace > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 15:04:52 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Containers Patrick sez: >I noticed that Walthers say they are going to do two types >of container. > >http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2102 > >http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2122 > >Are they realistic for the PRR and when were they in use?? Here's the rub...3 containers for $10.98...that's a gon load for $44!!! Huh? Stick with Westerfield...better models, lower price. Individual containers from Westerfield are $4-5, so comparable, but he does a one piece carload casting for $20...half the price! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeremy & Soni Helms" Subject: [PRR] N scale brass Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 15:10:02 -0600 Hello all, I am a new old member here on this list and have been lurking for the last couple of weeks here. I have noticed the listing of future brass PRR steam locomotive listings on this and other web sites. It has brought up a question that I have, what is the minimum recommended radius for locomotives in N scale such as the J1 and H8/9/10 locomotives by Key Imports? Also has anyone done a decoder install on such a locomotive? If purchased it would need a decoder installed. Jeremy Helms Bellevue, Nebraska ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Containers Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 16:16:05 -0500 I think $10.95 is for three containers. Ouch! That's 43.80 for a carload! I think Railwork was selling singles of their brass HB1 containters for less than that! Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andrew S. > Miller > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 3:29 PM > To: pgrace > Cc: PRR Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] Containers > > > 2122 looks familiar. I can not be sure. There was a KEYSTONE article on > containers some years ago. I will have to go back and check. > > BTW I hope the $10.95 price is for a set of containers and not each! A > G22 gon (which Walthers does NOT make but Westerfield does) held 12 as I > recall. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > > > pgrace wrote: > > > I noticed that Walthers say they are going to do two types > > of container. > > > > http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2102 > > > > http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/933-2122 > > > > Are they realistic for the PRR and when were they in use?? > > > > Patrick Grace > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 21:23:41 +0000 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: Please help me find Wm. J. Brennen, Photographer Weldon Greiger wrote: > > All the best to you and yours Weldon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: PRR-Talk > To: Weldon Greiger > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 7:23 PM > Subject: Re: Help me find Wm. J. Brennen, Photographer > > > >Group: If anyone can put me in contact with the William J. Brennen (or > > >Bert Pennypacker for that matter) who's photograph appears on page 16 of > > the > > >Pennypacker authored Morning Star Book, titled, "Pennsy Electric Years > > >Volume 2", I'd appreciate it very much. > > > > > >I want to discuss his photography and memories of Exchange Place in > > Jersey > > >City, NJ. > > > > > >All the best to you and yours Weldon Bill usually shows at the PHL area Greenberg shows to sell Morning Sun books including his Lionel book. He is not listed for the Ft. Washington show but that is not an all inclusive list. Perhaps you can locate them by contacting Morning Sun books. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 13:28:55 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Containers Hi All, After looking at Rob's diagrams and checking his Westerfield references it does seem that the Walthers "bulk material container" is a "close enough" to the HB4. However, as Bruce points out, the Westerfield option is more cost effective if you want a full gon load and don't plan to remove them. You HO guys will be more familiar with the quality difference between the two brands than I. Later, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 13:30:13 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Containers Hi Patrick, Jerry, All, Have to agree with Jerry, they don't look like any PRR containers that I've seen. Not even close to the ones shown in Wayner's diagram book. However, I am, also, not an expert. Looking in the "Color Guides" I suppose the PRR bulk container could look like the coke ones but the PRR ones shown there had tops and I can't compare the bottoms as they are in a gon. There is also an article on PRR containers in one of my "Train Shed Cyclopedias". I'll try to find it and check there. I think the article does address PRR's bulk containers. Later, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 15:40:41 -0600 From: Greg Johnson Subject: Re:Minimum Radius [PRR] N scale brass Jeremy, I don't know specifically about the PRR brass steam, but I would highly recommend at least 18" minimum radius for your N scale layout. I was an N scaler for 20 years (my last layout was featured in Great Model Railroads- 1993), and I learned that the larger the radius the better the operation and appearance. I think my old Arkansas Division layout had 24" minimum radius. My advice - as large as you can fit! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeremy & Soni Helms" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 3:10 PM Subject: [PRR] N scale brass > Hello all, > > I am a new old member here on this list and have been lurking for the last > couple of weeks here. I have noticed the listing of future brass PRR steam > locomotive listings on this and other web sites. It has brought up a > question that I have, what is the minimum recommended radius for locomotives > in N scale such as the J1 and H8/9/10 locomotives by Key Imports? Also has > anyone done a decoder install on such a locomotive? If purchased it would > need a decoder installed. > > Jeremy Helms > Bellevue, Nebraska > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 17:11:53 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] N scale brass From: Jerry Britton On 12/5/01 4:10 PM, Jeremy & Soni Helms at (jeremy-sonihelms@home.com) wrote: > I am a new old member here on this list and have been lurking for the last > couple of weeks here. I have noticed the listing of future brass PRR steam > locomotive listings on this and other web sites. It has brought up a > question that I have, what is the minimum recommended radius for locomotives > in N scale such as the J1 and H8/9/10 locomotives by Key Imports? Also has > anyone done a decoder install on such a locomotive? If purchased it would > need a decoder installed. > Even as a Key dealer, I haven't gotten any info on a minimum radius for the N scale J's. But N scalers "tend" to run larger radii than HO scalers because they can. I expect it will run on 15", perhaps less, although it won't look as good. I personally will have 20" plus radii. The H series will be a much shorter locomotive, naturally. As for decoders, are you aware that there is now a Soundtraxx N scale decoder? Ought to fit right into the tender of that J!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 05 Dec 2001 17:35:30 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR equipment on "the Montrealer/Washingtonian" Reply to: RE: PRR equipment on "the Montrealer/Washingtonian" "Chany, Christopher" wrote: > Listers, > > My friend models northern New England railroads (B&M/Rutland etc). He > mentioned that the Montrealer continued on to Washington on the PRR as the > Washingtonian. We want to know whether there was any PRR equipment on the > Montrealer. It will give me a great excuse to run my PRR stuff on his > layout! Andy Miller replied: While I can not claim any definitive source, I am reasonably confidant that PRR coaches (P70Ks would be the likely choice) and sleepers (Betterment HWs?) ran through to Montreal on frequent occasions. I am also under the impression that PRR diners never ran through and that the lounge car was NH. BTW the train was called the "Montrealer" over its entire Wash-Montreal Northbound route, and the "Washingtonian" southbound. --------------- I've never heard this train called by its proper names, by the railroad men who operated it. It was always called "the Bootlegger" or just "the Boot" in later years... in either direction. Nickname developed during Prohibition, for obvious reasons. Yes, Chris, Andy Miller is correct about this NB/SB train set running PRR equipment regularly. However, the Bootlegger passed through at night/wee hours of the morning in each direction, in B&M territory, so pictures of it and its equipment taken while traversing the B&M/CV are relatively rare. The following 1952 partial consist of the Boot is from James van Bokkelen's great site about New England railroads and modeling same: http://www.apocalypse.org/~jbvb/rr/run_thru.html#CTV Washington - Montreal: 8sect-5double-bedroom; 5-cpt-buffet-lounge Washington - NYC (Penn): dining car Washington -> Springfield: Parlor car w/drawing room (ex. Saturday) NYC (Penn) - White River Jct.: 10section-1dr-2cpt (ex. Saturday) NYC (Penn) - St. Albans: 10section-3-double-bedroom NYC (Penn) - Montreal: 8section-5db; 14single-bedroom NYC (Penn) -> Washington: Parlor car w/buffet-lounge >From photos I've seen, yes, these were betterment heavyweight cars. Food service was taken care of by a buffet-lounge car north of Penn station, and Andy, I think it *was* a New Haven car, also a heavyweight. PRR B60B express/messenger cars were also used quite often on the daylight north/south trains on the B&M-CV or B&M-CP. Andy, I've never seen a picture of a P70K on the trains that ran up the Connecticut valley to Canada, but that means nothing. I *have* seen photos on non-streamlined P70's on these types of trains, though. -- Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BPX29@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 18:07:17 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Washingtonian/Montrealer Chris, I've always had a certain interest in New England passenger operations, particularly in the northern reachs of the region. The day train, the Ambassador, has of course been well covered with photos, but that was a Grand Central train out of New York. I don't think you mentioned what era your friend is modeling, but I have seen numerous photos spanning a large period of time of the Bootlegger, as another lister has referred to this train. All these photos are north of Montpelier Jct, or at that point, in the summer. That's about the only time this train could be photo'd, obviously. Same thing with it's little connecting train carrying the St.Albans sleeper north of White River Jct. (That train, by the way, seemed to often have a Pennsy headend car onboard). There was once an article about this train in Trains mag as well, in which the author spoke of the Montrealer as being 'multi-railroad, multi-colored and slow". I don't know about the coachs, but I've never seen any Pennsy coachs in any of the photos that I can recall. Sleepers though, would be a different matter, what with all the 8-5's mentioned. Also ,in the summer, this train carried a set off sleeper, a 6-6, for Bretton Woods-Fabyan via the B&M out of WRJ. This would be a Pennsy natural.The train wasn't much for headend cars, at least north of that junction point. (Pennsy headend cars often appear in photos of that town). You might try your question over on the passenger car list. Don Valentine, owner of NERS, is an old B&M fan and has a lot of consist info available. I'm sure he could help. regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: [PRR] Fw: Please help me find Wm. J. Brennen, Photographer Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 19:28:23 -0500 All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: PRR-Talk To: Weldon Greiger Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 7:23 PM Subject: Re: Help me find Wm. J. Brennen, Photographer > >Group: If anyone can put me in contact with the William J. Brennen (or > >Bert Pennypacker for that matter) who's photograph appears on page 16 of > the > >Pennypacker authored Morning Star Book, titled, "Pennsy Electric Years > >Volume 2", I'd appreciate it very much. > > > >I want to discuss his photography and memories of Exchange Place in > Jersey > >City, NJ. > > > >All the best to you and yours Weldon > > > > Your message is being returned because the message looked like it > contained a command to the list processor. > > If you were trying to send a command, please send it to: > > LetterRip Requests > > If you are trying to send a message to the PRR-Talk list, please accept > our apologies. The list server tries to prevent commands from being posted > to the list and your message appeared to contain a command. > > The list processor looks in both the subject and the beginning of each > message for the following words: > > help > info > lists > subscribe > unsubscribe > > Try rewriting the message with a slightly different beginning. For > example, you might try one of the following: > > - change the first word of the message > - enclose the first word in quotation marks > - insert a line of dashes at the beginning of the message > > The change you make must prevent the beginning of the message or the > subject from looking like a command. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 16:53:37 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Washingtonian/Montrealer From: "Douglas Nelson" Chris: Train 168 was the Washington to Montreal "Montrealer" and Train 169 was the Montreal to Washington "Washingtonian". From a 1952 New York Division Make-up of Trains, the consist appears to be mostly PRR, with a NH baggage (Springfield to NY) and PRR or CN coaches. The train was heavy with sleeping cars which would have been Pullman or railroad depending on the date. I believe the route was PRR (Wash.-NY), NH (NY-Springfield), BM/CV (Springfield-White River Jct.), CV (WRJ-Cantic,PQ) and CN (Cantic to Montreal). No Rutland except crossing the diamond at Bellows Falls, VT. Doug Nelson. ---------- >From: "Chany, Christopher" >To: PRR-Talk LIST >Subject: [PRR] Washingtonian/Montrealer >Date: Wed, Dec 5, 2001, 5:38 AM > > Listers, > > My friend models northern New England railroads (B&M/Rutland etc). He > mentioned that the Montrealer continued on to Washington on the PRR as the > Washingtonian. We want to know whether there was any PRR equipment on the > Montrealer. It will give me a great excuse to run my PRR stuff on his > layout! > > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Rail sizes Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 23:37:19 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17DE5.C7EC00C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Peter and the List: In regards to standard rail sizes on the Pennsy, the 130 pound rail on th= e 1951 track chart is a "PS" or "Pennsylvania Standard" design. This rail= was introduced in the mid - 1920's and was produced in large quantities = into the mid-1930's. It was the standard for mainline track until around = 1931, when the 131 PS rail section was designed. This rail section was la= ter adopted by AREA for their standard rail section. By the end of WW II,= the PRR was designing rail sections such as 133 PS and 140 PS which wee = also adopted by the AREA. The Pennsy also designed 152 PS and 155 PS rail= sections for heavy mountainous railroading but these sections were never= adopted by the AREA. At the turn of the 20th century, the PRR was weaning itself away from the= lighter 85 PS rail in favor of the heavier 100 PS rail. 100 PS rail was = used as the standard rail until the 130 PS replaced it. Hence, a given rail section was used as the standard until it was replace= d by a larger rail section. This made the older rail sections available t= o be used on lesser traveled branch lines and sidings. =20 The 130 PS rail that appears on the 1951 track chart is probably not orig= inal. 130 pound rail was probably placed on the Elmira Branch in the 1930= 's but given the rail traffic of coal and those heavy decapods, I would i= magine that the rail was replaced outright at least once by 1951. Your tr= ack chart may show the date of the latest placement. For sidings, spurs, and yard track, the Pennsy would have used 100 PS fro= m 1930 onward to about the early 1960's when they adopted 115 AREA rail f= or branch lines. In HO scale, code 70 rail approximates 100 PS while code 83 is good for 1= 31 to 140 pound rail. For 130 PS, you could use code 83 although it will = be a little too tall in height. Or you may try code 75 rail available by = Peco from England. I think that is undersized as far as height is concern= ed. I am planning on using Microengineer code 83 flex track to replicate = my 130 PS. =20 I hope that this helps you out! Ted Andrews (a "railfan" in more ways than one!!) ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Reinhold Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 3:37 PM To: PRR-Talk (E-mail) Subject: [PRR] Rail sizes =20 Hi List, I'm modeling Southport yard, Elmira, NY, and have made the following observations from photos and a 1951 track chart. 1. The rail size coming into the yard is 130 LB. (track chart). 2. The turnouts seen to be 130 LB. (photos) 3. The main trackage and switching leads look like 130 LB. (photos) 4. The body tracks look to be lighter rail (photos) Also, I found that the passing sidings look to be laid in the same weight rail as the main. This would make sense when you consider the traffic on the Elmira Branch. Can anyone comment on PRR practices in general as the relate to my observations. Also, anyone know what weight rail should be used for industrial sidings, 90-110 LB would be my guess. Peter Reinhold preinhol@unidie.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17DE5.C7EC00C0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Peter and the = List:
 
In regards to standard rail sizes= on the Pennsy, the 130 pound rail on the 1951 track chart is a "PS"= or "Pennsylvania Standard" design. This rail was introduced in the mid -= 1920's and was produced in large quantities into the mid-1930's. It was = the standard for mainline track until around 1931, when the 131 PS rail s= ection was designed. This rail section was later adopted by AREA for thei= r standard rail section. By the end of WW II, the PRR was designing rail = sections such as 133 PS and 140 PS which wee also adopted by the AREA. Th= e Pennsy also designed 152 PS and 155 PS rail sections for heavy mountain= ous railroading but these sections were never adopted by the AREA.
=
 
At the turn of the 20th century, the PRR was weani= ng itself away from the lighter 85 PS rail in favor of the heavier 100 PS= rail. 100 PS rail was used as the standard rail until the 130 PS replace= d it.
 
Hence, a given rail section was used a= s the standard until it was replaced by a larger rail section. This made = the older rail sections available to be used on lesser traveled branch
lines and sidings.
 
The 130 PS rail= that appears on the 1951 track chart is probably not original. 130 pound= rail was probably placed on the Elmira Branch in the 1930's but given th= e rail traffic of coal and those heavy decapods, I would imagine that the= rail was replaced outright at least once by 1951. Your track chart may s= how the date of the latest placement.
 
For si= dings, spurs, and yard track, the Pennsy would have used 100 PS from 1930= onward to about the early 1960's when they adopted 115 AREA rail for bra= nch lines.
 
In HO scale, code 70 rail approxi= mates 100 PS while code 83 is good for 131 to 140 pound rail. For 130 PS,= you could use code 83 although it will be a little too tall in height. O= r you may try code 75 rail available by Peco from England. I th= ink that is undersized as far as height is concerned. I am planning = on using Microengineer code 83 flex track to replicate my 130 PS.&nb= sp;
 
I hope that this helps you out!
 
 
Ted Andrews
(a "railfan= " in more ways than one!!)
 
----- = Original Message -----
From: Peter Reinhold
Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 3:37 PM
<= DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">To: PRR-Talk (E-mail)
Subject: [PRR] Rail sizes
&nbs= p;
Hi List,

   I'm modeling Southport yard, Elmira,= NY, and have made the following
observations from photos and a 1951 t= rack chart.
1. The rail size coming into the yard is 130 LB. (track ch= art).
2. The turnouts seen to be 130 LB. (photos)
3. The main track= age and switching leads look like 130 LB. (photos)
4. The body tracks = look to be lighter rail (photos)

   Also, I found that t= he passing sidings look to be laid in the same
weight rail as the main= . This would make sense when you consider the
traffic on the Elmira Br= anch.

   Can anyone comment on PRR practices in general = as the relate to my
observations. Also, anyone know what weight rail s= hould be used for
industrial sidings, 90-110 LB would be my guess.
=
Peter Reinhold
preinhol@unidie.com


--------------------= ---------------------------------------------------
For assistance wit= h this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com.
<= /HTML> ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C17DE5.C7EC00C0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 07:25:06 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Homasote Follow Up From: Jerry Britton Two days ago I posted a query about how to best cut homasote with minimal fraying at the edges. I received numerous solutions, including cutting with a razor knife, using a fine saber saw blade, using a fine saber saw blade with offset teeth, and using a "knife" saber saw blade. The latter drew the most interest from me, as I didn't even know they existed. I was referred to Sears, but I have an Ace Hardware nearby, so I took a look. There I found Ace #2011823, "Leather/Rubber Jig Saw Blades", packaged two for $1.89. It is labeled a "Specialty Blade"..."for cutting in cork, leather, vinyl, paper, foam, and rubber." I surmised that homasote was thick paper! I picked up two packs (of two) and put them to work last night on the PRR's Eastern Region (http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/). I found the following: Pros: * Cut almost as fast as a toothed blade. Any time losses were recovered in not having to clean up the edge. * Created a "cauterized-like" sealed, clean edge, almost as if waxed. * Almost no residual dust from cutting. Cons: * Blades dull quicker. I suspect an average use of one blade per sheet of homasote. * Blades get very hot, which causes them to become brittle and snap. Lots of short cuts over time may be fine, but continuous cutting produced two broken blades on one sheet. However, all cuts were curves, see below. * Cutting on curves will increase possibility of breaking blade. This adds to friction/heat, not to mention it tends to bend an already narrow blade. Overall, I think this is the ticket. Dave Wartell was over and I think he will agree. Stock up on these blades and all pieces cut are ready to use and require absolutely no cleanup. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 07:29:16 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Recent virus experience on railroad lists In a message dated 12/5/01 7:14:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: << Message: 1 Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 00:40:50 -0000 From: threebutchers@cs.com Subject: Virus Alert.... Folks; Someone on this list is spreading the virus W32.Badtrans.B@mm. This is a wicked worm that executes several malicious program functions as well as e-mail itself through address books or stored e- mail in ones computor. Th e-mail I received was addressed from.... "fornavn efternavn re:(PRR-Modeling)Re:F30G Truc-train/TTX flats"....an actual thread I particpated in on this list several months back. If you have recently opened a similar titled e-mail, I strongly suggest you research the virus and have your computor checked out. It is my understanding that this virus is NOT spread through the list, but through personal e-mail address lists. Chances are, several other received the same message. Brian >> Not to add to the panic or expend bandwidth, but I have received 4 or 5 attempts lately that may or may not be the virus you're referring to... the characteristics are: 1. the sender appears to be someone you know (a railfan), but with a blank "_" leading his screen name. 2. the subject is something you were discussing some months back. 3. the name of the attachment is built from three random, rotating blocks so each attachment LOOKS unique. Obviously, some @#$%%$*& is using rail-oriented email to spread his virus. So be careful. I learned about this one (just in time) because I'm on McAfee's emailing list for virus alerts. And yes, it isn't spread through mailing groups, but sends copies to people in your address book. The moral -- don't send attachments. Don't open attachments. Delete messages with attachments. Don't you know we're at war? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 07:29:16 EST Subject: [PRR] Recent virus experience on railroad lists In a message dated 12/5/01 7:14:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com writes: << Message: 1 Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 00:40:50 -0000 From: threebutchers@cs.com Subject: Virus Alert.... Folks; Someone on this list is spreading the virus W32.Badtrans.B@mm. This is a wicked worm that executes several malicious program functions as well as e-mail itself through address books or stored e- mail in ones computor. Th e-mail I received was addressed from.... "fornavn efternavn re:(PRR-Modeling)Re:F30G Truc-train/TTX flats"....an actual thread I particpated in on this list several months back. If you have recently opened a similar titled e-mail, I strongly suggest you research the virus and have your computor checked out. It is my understanding that this virus is NOT spread through the list, but through personal e-mail address lists. Chances are, several other received the same message. Brian >> Not to add to the panic or expend bandwidth, but I have received 4 or 5 attempts lately that may or may not be the virus you're referring to... the characteristics are: 1. the sender appears to be someone you know (a railfan), but with a blank "_" leading his screen name. 2. the subject is something you were discussing some months back. 3. the name of the attachment is built from three random, rotating blocks so each attachment LOOKS unique. Obviously, some @#$%%$*& is using rail-oriented email to spread his virus. So be careful. I learned about this one (just in time) because I'm on McAfee's emailing list for virus alerts. And yes, it isn't spread through mailing groups, but sends copies to people in your address book. The moral -- don't send attachments. Don't open attachments. Delete messages with attachments. Don't you know we're at war? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] GP-7 DB Fans Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 08:21:33 -0500 Does anyone on the list know if all Pennsy GP-7's with dynamic brakes had a 48" db fan? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 08:22:30 EST Subject: [PRR] Homasote Roadbed --part1_93.1470dba9.2940cb16_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List, After reading all the comments on the use of Homasote, it must be the allowing of the board to adjust to local conditions before using that results in the lack of swelling plus being in a fixed location. I would still highly recommend sealing it if it were to be used in a traveling/modular layout. Evan --part1_93.1470dba9.2940cb16_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List,

 After reading all the comments on the use of Homasote,  it must be the allowing of the board to adjust to local conditions before using that results in the lack of swelling plus being in a fixed location.   I would still highly recommend sealing it if it were to be used in a traveling/modular layout.

Evan --part1_93.1470dba9.2940cb16_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 09:11:51 -0500 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: Re: [PRR] Washingtonian/Montrealer The "Monrealer" during the '60s was mostly NH equipment with NH 6-6-4 sleepers and one of the NH 6db-buffet cars also used on the "Federal". The coaches were classic NH lightweight coaches. Head end was mixed. Occasionally, PRR cars and CN Sleepers would mix in the consist. In later years, the Washington sleeping car was carried in a corridor train, with the rest of the consist actually originating in NYP. Northward, on Saturdays this car was carried on # 152, the "Afternoon Congressional". It was not unusual to see a lightweight CN sleeper head out, instead of the usual NH car. A footnote, It was a common sight to see foreign railroad passenger equipment in regular service on what is now known as the Northeast Corridor. New Haven, Southern, RF&P, N&W, C&O, SAL,ACL and FEC cars were common not only in trains but mixed as part of NY - WAS trains. Frequently, cars from the CN and L&N made appearances as did cars from the NKP, WRofA, CfoGa. Joe W. Joe W. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Nelson" To: "Chany, Christopher" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Washingtonian/Montrealer > Chris: > > Train 168 was the Washington to Montreal "Montrealer" and Train 169 was the > Montreal to Washington "Washingtonian". From a 1952 New York Division > Make-up of Trains, the consist appears to be mostly PRR, with a NH baggage > (Springfield to NY) and PRR or CN coaches. The train was heavy with > sleeping cars which would have been Pullman or railroad depending on the > date. I believe the route was PRR (Wash.-NY), NH (NY-Springfield), BM/CV > (Springfield-White River Jct.), CV (WRJ-Cantic,PQ) and CN (Cantic to > Montreal). No Rutland except crossing the diamond at Bellows Falls, VT. > > Doug Nelson. > > > > ---------- > >From: "Chany, Christopher" > >To: PRR-Talk LIST > >Subject: [PRR] Washingtonian/Montrealer > >Date: Wed, Dec 5, 2001, 5:38 AM > > > > > Listers, > > > > My friend models northern New England railroads (B&M/Rutland etc). He > > mentioned that the Montrealer continued on to Washington on the PRR as the > > Washingtonian. We want to know whether there was any PRR equipment on the > > Montrealer. It will give me a great excuse to run my PRR stuff on his > > layout! > > > > Chris Chany > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Washingtonian/Montrealer Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:02:21 -0600 It is amazing to me that the PRR was so progressive in allowing other paint schemes and train names from other railroads on their equipment as well as allowing equipment from other railroads onto the corridor. You would think that as the 500# gorilla the PRR would have dictated car usage of PRR cars. That may have been offset by the realization that the other roads were picking up the cost of the cars and maintenance. Whatever the reason it appears the PRR got the best of the situation by generating maxixmum revenue with minimum cost in most cases. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Witcofsky" To: "Douglas Nelson" ; "Chany, Christopher" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 8:11 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Washingtonian/Montrealer > The "Monrealer" during the '60s was mostly NH equipment with NH 6-6-4 > sleepers and one of the NH 6db-buffet cars also used on the "Federal". The > coaches were classic NH lightweight coaches. Head end was mixed. > Occasionally, PRR cars and CN Sleepers would mix in the consist. > > In later years, the Washington sleeping car was carried in a corridor train, > with the rest of the consist actually originating in NYP. Northward, on > Saturdays this car was carried on # 152, the "Afternoon Congressional". It > was not unusual to see a lightweight CN sleeper head out, instead of the > usual NH car. > > A footnote, It was a common sight to see foreign railroad passenger > equipment in regular service on what is now known as the Northeast Corridor. > New Haven, Southern, RF&P, N&W, C&O, SAL,ACL and FEC cars were common not > only in trains but mixed as part of NY - WAS trains. Frequently, cars from > the CN and L&N made appearances as did cars from the NKP, WRofA, CfoGa. > > Joe W. > > Joe W. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Douglas Nelson" > To: "Chany, Christopher" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" > > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 7:53 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Washingtonian/Montrealer > > > > Chris: > > > > Train 168 was the Washington to Montreal "Montrealer" and Train 169 was > the > > Montreal to Washington "Washingtonian". From a 1952 New York Division > > Make-up of Trains, the consist appears to be mostly PRR, with a NH baggage > > (Springfield to NY) and PRR or CN coaches. The train was heavy with > > sleeping cars which would have been Pullman or railroad depending on the > > date. I believe the route was PRR (Wash.-NY), NH (NY-Springfield), BM/CV > > (Springfield-White River Jct.), CV (WRJ-Cantic,PQ) and CN (Cantic to > > Montreal). No Rutland except crossing the diamond at Bellows Falls, VT. > > > > Doug Nelson. > > > > > > > > ---------- > > >From: "Chany, Christopher" > > >To: PRR-Talk LIST > > >Subject: [PRR] Washingtonian/Montrealer > > >Date: Wed, Dec 5, 2001, 5:38 AM > > > > > > > > Listers, > > > > > > My friend models northern New England railroads (B&M/Rutland etc). He > > > mentioned that the Montrealer continued on to Washington on the PRR as > the > > > Washingtonian. We want to know whether there was any PRR equipment on > the > > > Montrealer. It will give me a great excuse to run my PRR stuff on his > > > layout! > > > > > > Chris Chany > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bud Kaiser" Subject: Re: [PRR] Containers Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:09:55 -0500 Wouldn't you know it but I just finished the Westerfield G22B and the 12 container casting as the load. One of the Walthers PRR containers looks like the HB4 (Hopper Bottom #4)model without the end brackets. The Walthers containers are certainly more expensive but may be the way to go if one is skittish about decalling, There are about 56 separate decal applications on the car and about 120 on the 12 container casting. For those who like to decal, it's not a problem. The car looks great when finished. Now on to weathering! The Keystone articles, Spring and Autumn, 1985, show most of the various containers that the PRR had, but doesn't go into the overall operation in great detail. Does anyone know if these containers where ever used in LCL service, or where they only used in shipment to facilities that had large overhead cranes for removal from the gons. Also, in the case of the hopper bottom containers, were they placed in the gons with the lock and open/close mechanisms in a particular position. The Westerfield casting has them all facing the same side of the gon so that one side of the casting does not have these modeled. This may simply be an expediency for the model casting. Thanks. Bud ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." > Here's the rub...3 containers for $10.98...that's a gon load for $44!!! > Huh? Stick with Westerfield...better models, lower price. Individual > containers from Westerfield are $4-5, so comparable, but he does a one > piece carload casting for $20...half the price! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Containers Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:34:35 -0500 Jerry, Since your our H'burg expert: didn't Harrisburg yard have a crane for these containers for LCL service or was it Enola? I know the Walthers overhead crane is a pretty good match to the crane on the cover of the Keystone. Chris Chany -Bud wrote Wouldn't you know it but I just finished the Westerfield G22B and the 12 container casting as the load. One of the Walthers PRR containers looks like the HB4 (Hopper Bottom #4)model without the end brackets. The Walthers containers are certainly more expensive but may be the way to go if one is skittish about decalling, There are about 56 separate decal applications on the car and about 120 on the 12 container casting. For those who like to decal, it's not a problem. The car looks great when finished. Now on to weathering! The Keystone articles, Spring and Autumn, 1985, show most of the various containers that the PRR had, but doesn't go into the overall operation in great detail. Does anyone know if these containers where ever used in LCL service, or where they only used in shipment to facilities that had large overhead cranes for removal from the gons. Also, in the case of the hopper bottom containers, were they placed in the gons with the lock and open/close mechanisms in a particular position. The Westerfield casting has them all facing the same side of the gon so that one side of the casting does not have these modeled. This may simply be an expediency for the model casting. Thanks. Bud ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] N scale brass Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:52:53 -0500 Jeremy, Last year at the Springfield train show, Tony's Train Xchange showed me the Santa Fe version of a J with two decoders and two speakers in the tender!!! Chris Chany Jeremy wrote, Hello all, I am a new old member here on this list and have been lurking for the last couple of weeks here. I have noticed the listing of future brass PRR steam locomotive listings on this and other web sites. It has brought up a question that I have, what is the minimum recommended radius for locomotives in N scale such as the J1 and H8/9/10 locomotives by Key Imports? Also has anyone done a decoder install on such a locomotive? If purchased it would need a decoder installed. Jeremy Helms Bellevue, Nebraska ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 12:28:46 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] The Technicolor Corridor (was: Washingtonian/Montrealer) Joe Witcofsky wrote: (in part) > . . . A footnote, It was a common sight to see foreign railroad passenger > equipment in regular service on what is now known as the Northeast Corridor. > New Haven, Southern, RF&P, N&W, C&O, SAL,ACL and FEC cars were common not > only in trains but mixed as part of NY - WAS trains. Frequently, cars from > the CN and L&N made appearances as did cars from the NKP, WRofA, CfoGa. Add in all the transcon sleepers from SF, UP, MKT, Frisco, MP, WP, RI, CB&Q, SP and that is why I think these Technicolor trains made this the most fascinating piece of RRing ever! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 12:34:19 -0500 Subject: [PRR] AD-Excess PRR and Reading Stock From: Jerry Britton Rare on-list post about a Merchandise Service sale -- I usually advertise only on the "Merchandise Announce" list... I've got a few PRR and Reading items that are going to have price decreases DAILY until they are gone. If you are interested, check out this web page and return frequently over the next two weeks... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/ms_sale.html If you are not interested, just hit DELETE!!! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 12:35:36 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] The Technicolor Corridor (was:Washingtonian/Montrealer) Norm Bell wrote: > It is amazing to me that the PRR was so progressive in allowing other paint > schemes and train names from other railroads on their equipment as well as > allowing equipment from other railroads onto the corridor. You would think > that as the 500# gorilla the PRR would have dictated car usage of PRR cars. > That may have been offset by the realization that the other roads were > picking up the cost of the cars and maintenance. Whatever the reason it > appears the PRR got the best of the situation by generating maxixmum revenue > with minimum cost in most cases. The NYC was just the opposite (as in many other things). They insisted that anything on the Hudson must be grey! Even West Point Cadets ;-) I think that the PRR's marketing men saw the free advertising they got from their approach. If you went down to the platforms of Penn Station in the early fifties (as I did often as a boy -sigh!), the message was obvious - "You can get anywhere in the country from here!" Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Technicolor Corridor (was:Washingtonian/Montrealer) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:07:43 -0500 List: You had another factor on the NY-Wash corridor - most of the geography covered by the Crescent, Southerner, and the Florida trains was not on the PRR's tracks and virtually all of the promotion and advertising of these trains was done by the carriers in the South. Some of these trains did not even board local PRR passengers. The Southern carriers recognized that the major end point of all Eastern travel was NY and they had to pay PRR to get there. As in almost all multi-line passenger operations, equipment obligations were shared, but the train was painted in the scheme of the principal operator, which was SOU, SAL, or ACL. Had a conductor try to stop me from boarding the Silver Meteor once at Baltimore until he found out I was a "deadhead" going to Philly. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" To: "Norm Bell" Cc: "Prr-Talk" ; "Joe Witcofsky" Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 12:35 PM Subject: [PRR] The Technicolor Corridor (was:Washingtonian/Montrealer) > Norm Bell wrote: > > > It is amazing to me that the PRR was so progressive in allowing other paint > > schemes and train names from other railroads on their equipment as well as > > allowing equipment from other railroads onto the corridor. You would think > > that as the 500# gorilla the PRR would have dictated car usage of PRR cars. > > That may have been offset by the realization that the other roads were > > picking up the cost of the cars and maintenance. Whatever the reason it > > appears the PRR got the best of the situation by generating maxixmum revenue > > with minimum cost in most cases. > > The NYC was just the opposite (as in many other things). They insisted that > anything on the Hudson must be grey! Even West Point Cadets ;-) > > I think that the PRR's marketing men saw the free advertising they got from > their approach. If you went down to the platforms of Penn Station in the early > fifties (as I did often as a boy -sigh!), the message was obvious - "You can get > anywhere in the country from here!" > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 13:12:00 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] The Technicolor Corridor (was:Washingtonian/Montrealer) In a message dated 12/6/01 11:46:39 AM Central Standard Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << I think that the PRR's marketing men saw the free advertising they got from their approach. If you went down to the platforms of Penn Station in the early fifties (as I did often as a boy -sigh!), the message was obvious - "You can get anywhere in the country from here!" >> We may be just reading the same books, but I was under the same impression that that was a reason, Andy. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 13:50:55 EST From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] The Technicolor Corridor (was:Washingtonian/Montrealer) Gents, Greg M brings up some interesting observations regarding Pennsy's "Corridor" traffic back in the classic 50's/60's era. Not only some of the trains bound for the South, but most of them, didn't carry local pasengers on the Pennsy. In fact they weren't even shown in the NY-Wash timetables, unless they happened to be secondary trains such as the Palmetto or Gulf Coast Special that were basicly offline cars in a Pennsy train rather than through trains. It used to be a trainwatching anomoly at the North Philley Station (or Wilmington even more so) to see so many more high grade trains that weren't in the timetable for Corridor service. Essentially, they recieved passengers southbound and discharged them northbound on the actual through trains to Florida, and other Southland points. One trick for getting to Washington on one of them was to buy a ticket for Alexandria, but this usually wasn't needed as normal Pennsy trains were pretty frequent. I think this pattern is rather similar even under Amtrak. It was a fascinating piece of railroad allright, particularly when you mixed in MP54's and freights, not to mention mail trains not carrying passengers at all. Oh, as a sidenote, I think the lack of through service to the South on B&O trains was one of the reasons they held up so poorly against the Pennsy. Poor B&O did show NY-Richmond service when the Royal Blue Line was still running, but it all involved a change of trains at DC.I think a person would have had to be a true B&O fan to take this over Pennsy. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Technicolor Corridor (was:Washingtonian/Montrealer) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 14:48:57 -0500 List: The B&O did not get all the way to NY - train service ended at the CNJ terminal in Jersey City, although B&O did provide bus (ugh) service from there to a terminal on 42nd St. across from Grand Central. PRR was the only one with tunnels into Manhattan, so the Southern carriers worked with it. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] The Technicolor Corridor (was:Washingtonian/Montrealer) > Gents, > Greg M brings up some interesting observations regarding Pennsy's "Corridor" traffic back in the classic 50's/60's era. Not only some of the trains bound for the South, but most of them, didn't carry local pasengers on the Pennsy. In fact they weren't even shown in the NY-Wash timetables, unless they happened to be secondary trains such as the Palmetto or Gulf Coast Special that were basicly offline cars in a Pennsy train rather than through trains. > > It used to be a trainwatching anomoly at the North Philley Station (or Wilmington even more so) to see so many more high grade trains that weren't in the timetable for Corridor service. Essentially, they recieved passengers southbound and discharged them northbound on the actual through trains to Florida, and other Southland points. One trick for getting to Washington on one of them was to buy a ticket for Alexandria, but this usually wasn't needed as normal Pennsy trains were pretty frequent. I think this pattern is rather similar even under Amtrak. > > It was a fascinating piece of railroad allright, particularly when you mixed in MP54's and freights, not to mention mail trains not carrying passengers at all. > Oh, as a sidenote, I think the lack of through service to the South on B&O trains was one of the reasons they held up so poorly against the Pennsy. Poor B&O did show NY-Richmond service when the Royal Blue Line was still running, but it all involved a change of trains at DC.I think a person would have had to be a true B&O fan to take this over Pennsy. > Regards, > Barry Peltier > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:11:02 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] MP - 210F75a tender Hi All, Doers anyone have photos or drawings showing the Engineers side of the 210F75a tender? I am looking for how the trainphone equipment was hung on the bottom edge. I am assuming that the "draped" wire on the bottom is some kind of a cord. This seems to be connected somehow to the trucks for pickup. I especially need dimensions for the equipment box near the rear. Finally, what was the purpose of the pipe following the bottom edge of both sides of the tender? Any help would be most appreciated. You will be reimbursed for any expenses if incurred. Thank you Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Stop Smoking Now Nicotrol will help http://us.click.yahoo.com/2vN8tD/_pSDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] 210F75a tender Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:11:02 -0500 Hi All, Doers anyone have photos or drawings showing the Engineers side of the 210F75a tender? I am looking for how the trainphone equipment was hung on the bottom edge. I am assuming that the "draped" wire on the bottom is some kind of a cord. This seems to be connected somehow to the trucks for pickup. I especially need dimensions for the equipment box near the rear. Finally, what was the purpose of the pipe following the bottom edge of both sides of the tender? Any help would be most appreciated. You will be reimbursed for any expenses if incurred. Thank you Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Roc83@aol.com Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:28:39 EST Subject: [PRR] Sharks --part1_cf.fdb7b64.29418357_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list, When did the RF-16 sharks stop roaming the Pittdiv? Thanks Ralph --part1_cf.fdb7b64.29418357_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello list,
       When did the RF-16 sharks stop roaming the Pittdiv?

Thanks

Ralph --part1_cf.fdb7b64.29418357_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 20:18:51 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Sharks Hi Ralph, All, Take it with a grain of salt because I got the info from the Dolzall book. They claim that the last RF16 was purged from the Pennsy in 1966. Whether or not they were on the Pitt until the end is unclear. Dolzall mentions Conway and Crestline specifically, stating that Crestline's "decrepit" roundhouse was often full of them. They state that they were "legion" in Pennsylvania and Ohio into the early 60's. Hope this helps a little bit, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson PRR/ Penn Central Art) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 23:48:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Sharks I have photos of Sharks in Greenwich (South Philly) Yards and in Camden N.J. in 1959. I might be wrong but I think the sharks were "booted" from the Pitts Div. when the GP9s showed up in mid 50s. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 08:53:06 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Homasote Roadbed As an old woodworker, backlog carpenter, and son of a shop-teacher, I thought I'd add my 2c worth. All wood and wood products change dimensions with changes in temperature and humidity. Homosote is old newspaper, which was wood which is cellulose shreds glued together with a glue and binder. Masonite or hardboard is sawdust glued and packed together under pressure. "Tempered" masonite is made with more pressure. Particle board and OSB are made from bigger pieces of wood and glue. Real wood is "naturally" glued together cells of cellulose. Hardwood (oak, maple, ash, etc.) is more densely packed and heavier than softwood (pine, spruce, fir.) The "looser" the cellulose is bound together, the more the potential for swelling. Man-made wood products therefore swell more than natural wood, which still swells. There is no way top prevent the swelling, just control the amount. Sealing the cut or raw edges helps as mentioned in other posts. ALL wood and wood products should be acclimatized to the location where it is going to be used for several days before installation. Let the cut up sections of Homosote sit in the train room at your local average temperature and average humidity (i.e., what you would have the thermostat set to if you were finished and running trains) for several days before sealing and installing them and you'll likely get better results. Same advice for bench work and other wooden items. Jim McDaniel, living and building a house in Delmarva (actually waiting for a brick mason) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] ALPS printer & decals Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 08:46:15 -0600 (CST) From: george.pierson@trnty.edu Hello, everyone, This is a bit off-topic, but I need some info on printing decals on an ALPS laser printer. Is there a list member who has done this, esp. if you have printed in white? If so, could you please contact me OFF LIST. TIA George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Walthers Passenger cars Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:01:16 -0500 Listers, Which of Walthers' new passenger cars are PRR correct and what would be their general use? Thanks Chris Chany Modeling the PRR in 1955. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Washingtonian/Montrealer Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:04:51 -0500 Listers Thanks for all the info about the Washingtonian/Montrealer. Gives me a reason to run some of my stuff on his layout. The layout is circa 1956. By the way does anyone make a P70K? HO scale Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Walthers Passenger cars Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 11:06:27 -0500 OOPS Senior moment! By general use I meant what trains would they be found on! Chris -----Original Message----- From: Chany, Christopher Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 11:01 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Walthers Passenger cars Listers, Which of Walthers' new passenger cars are PRR correct and what would be their general use? Thanks Chris Chany Modeling the PRR in 1955. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Washingtonian/Montrealer Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:19:12 -0600 I think its been imported in brass, once in the 1970's by Nicke Plate Products (mis-labled as a P-50K) with an R-50 reefer, and again by someone else (PSC?) maybe 10 or 15 years later. -----Original Message----- From: Chany, Christopher [mailto:cpc1@westchestergov.com] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 10:05 AM To: Prr-Talk Subject: RE: [PRR] Washingtonian/Montrealer Listers Thanks for all the info about the Washingtonian/Montrealer. Gives me a reason to run some of my stuff on his layout. The layout is circa 1956. By the way does anyone make a P70K? HO scale Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 11:30:16 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] P70Ks (was: Washingtonian/Montrealer) Assuming you model in HO, Laser Horizons makes milled plastic sides for a P70k, and years ago Nickel Plate Products imported a set of two brass cars, one was an R50b and the other was a P70k although they advertised it as a P58 or some such nonsense. I believe that at least one other mfr makes sides, perhaps in brass. The P70k's were 1939 modernizations for overnight service. I believe there were about 100 of them. They were originally assigned to the Trail Blazer and Jeffersonian, but found their way to all of the overnight trains by the end of the war. In a 1953 Make-Up of Inter-regional Trains published by Rails NorthEast, almost every overnight train carried at least one. The Washingtonian/Montrealer was not shown since it was not inter-regional. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Chany, Christopher" wrote: > Listers > > Thanks for all the info about the Washingtonian/Montrealer. Gives me a > reason to run some of my stuff on his layout. The layout is circa 1956. By > the way does anyone make a P70K? HO scale > > Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 11:33:28 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Walthers Passenger cars The newly announced "Lounge" car is an accurate model of a 29 seat 1 dr parlor car built for the Congressional and Senator. The newly announced 52 seat coach appears to be an accurate model of the cars built for SAL NY-FL trains. The PRR contributed several coaches to this pool. (N.B. Walthers has NOT announced that it is offering the model decorated for SAL!) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Chany, Christopher" wrote: > Listers, > > Which of Walthers' new passenger cars are PRR correct and what would be > their general use? > > Thanks > Chris Chany > Modeling the PRR in 1955. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 07 Dec 2001 14:43:03 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] technicolor corridor Reply to: technicolor corridor I used to loathe 'foreign' cars besmirching a passenger train. Now that I understand passenger train operations a little more, I find them fascinating, and a great opportunity to get other RR's equipment into the act. The PRR also had a lot of foreign cars in it's big-name limiteds' consists, too, didn't it? Run-through Budd stainless Santa Fe cars on some Chicago trains, and blue and white MoPac cars on the Penn-Texas, maybe others? You guys are saying that the Central wouldn't allow such cars sullying their "colorful" (not!) gray and light gray trains? Weren't the 'transcontinental" Pullman cars a variation of Central's gray and light gray? -- Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] technicolor corridor Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:29:51 -0600 Chuck Blardone and (I think) Peter Tilp collaborated on a PRRT&HS book about the passenger cars of the PRR which is an excellent resource on just about everything except how the numbering system worked. The gray cars were for UP's (or was it ATSF?) Overland Limited not for anything to do with the "enemy". Norm Bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Drew" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 1:43 PM Subject: [PRR] technicolor corridor Reply to: technicolor corridor I used to loathe 'foreign' cars besmirching a passenger train. Now that I understand passenger train operations a little more, I find them fascinating, and a great opportunity to get other RR's equipment into the act. The PRR also had a lot of foreign cars in it's big-name limiteds' consists, too, didn't it? Run-through Budd stainless Santa Fe cars on some Chicago trains, and blue and white MoPac cars on the Penn-Texas, maybe others? You guys are saying that the Central wouldn't allow such cars sullying their "colorful" (not!) gray and light gray trains? Weren't the 'transcontinental" Pullman cars a variation of Central's gray and light gray? -- Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 15:36:30 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Electric Years, Volume 2 From: Jerry Britton "Pennsy Electric Years, Volume 2", from Morning Sun Books, is available. The production quality is super. The prints are well focused, everything looks crisp, the paper is excellent. The "tour", if you will, is set in a logical order -- portions of the NEC from New York to Philly to Washington. Then out the main line to Harrisburg. Then the Port Road and other lines. Finally some post-PRR pics worthy. One thing that really stands out is the amount of text... much more than in most MSB offerings. I have not yet had a chance to do much reading for accuracy, but there was an overhead of the Harrisburg Train Station that was taken from the Mulberry Street vehicular bridge. The author (Pennypacker) writes that it "must have been taken from the Reading bridge" which, in fact, is several hundred yards further to the east. I'll leave the in-depth reviews to the unbiased, but I like it. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] technicolor corridor Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 14:47:58 -0600 After World War II, New York Central coerced the Pullman comapany into painting pool cars into essentially the New York Central's piant scheme of two tone gray separated by whilte stripes. While I'm not sure about the specific cars you refer to, the "enemy" indeed had an influence on how sleeping cars were painted. -----Original Message----- From: Norm Bell [mailto:nbell@repco.com] Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 2:30 PM To: Prr-Talk; Doug Drew Subject: Re: [PRR] technicolor corridor Chuck Blardone and (I think) Peter Tilp collaborated on a PRRT&HS book about the passenger cars of the PRR which is an excellent resource on just about everything except how the numbering system worked. The gray cars were for UP's (or was it ATSF?) Overland Limited not for anything to do with the "enemy". Norm Bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Drew" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 1:43 PM Subject: [PRR] technicolor corridor Reply to: technicolor corridor I used to loathe 'foreign' cars besmirching a passenger train. Now that I understand passenger train operations a little more, I find them fascinating, and a great opportunity to get other RR's equipment into the act. The PRR also had a lot of foreign cars in it's big-name limiteds' consists, too, didn't it? Run-through Budd stainless Santa Fe cars on some Chicago trains, and blue and white MoPac cars on the Penn-Texas, maybe others? You guys are saying that the Central wouldn't allow such cars sullying their "colorful" (not!) gray and light gray trains? Weren't the 'transcontinental" Pullman cars a variation of Central's gray and light gray? -- Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 15:57:41 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] technicolor corridor I am sure the Central was occasionally talked into exceptions, but by and large I believe they used their muscle to make others comply. I know the PRR was not above bullying other roads into doing it their way. I know that the PRR refused to contribute cars to the Florida pools which were not all revenue. That is they would contribute (and keep the revenue) for coaches and sleepers but would not provide diners, observation cars, or lounges. The poor RF&P was stuck providing a lounge car for the Champion. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Doug Drew wrote: > Reply to: technicolor corridor > I used to loathe 'foreign' cars besmirching a passenger train. > Now that I understand passenger train operations a little more, I find them fascinating, and a great opportunity to get other RR's equipment into the act. > The PRR also had a lot of foreign cars in it's big-name limiteds' consists, too, didn't it? > Run-through Budd stainless Santa Fe cars on some Chicago trains, and blue and white MoPac cars on the Penn-Texas, maybe others? > You guys are saying that the Central wouldn't allow such cars sullying their "colorful" (not!) gray and light gray trains? > Weren't the 'transcontinental" Pullman cars a variation of Central's gray and light gray? > > -- Doug Drew > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 16:01:12 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] technicolor corridor I believe the two shades of grey were swapped on the Pullman cars as compared to the NYC cars. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Cadwell, Marvin L" wrote: > After World War II, New York Central coerced the Pullman comapany into > painting pool cars into essentially the New York Central's piant scheme of > two tone gray separated by whilte stripes. While I'm not sure about the > specific cars you refer to, the "enemy" indeed had an influence on how > sleeping cars were painted. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Norm Bell [mailto:nbell@repco.com] > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 2:30 PM > To: Prr-Talk; Doug Drew > Subject: Re: [PRR] technicolor corridor > > Chuck Blardone and (I think) Peter Tilp collaborated on a PRRT&HS book about > the passenger cars of the PRR which is an excellent resource on just about > everything except how the numbering system worked. The gray cars were for > UP's (or was it ATSF?) Overland Limited not for anything to do with the > "enemy". Norm Bell > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doug Drew" > To: "PRR-Talk" > Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 1:43 PM > Subject: [PRR] technicolor corridor > > Reply to: technicolor corridor > I used to loathe 'foreign' cars besmirching a passenger train. > Now that I understand passenger train operations a little more, I find them > fascinating, and a great opportunity to get other RR's equipment into the > act. > The PRR also had a lot of foreign cars in it's big-name limiteds' consists, > too, didn't it? > Run-through Budd stainless Santa Fe cars on some Chicago trains, and blue > and white MoPac cars on the Penn-Texas, maybe others? > You guys are saying that the Central wouldn't allow such cars sullying their > "colorful" (not!) gray and light gray trains? > Weren't the 'transcontinental" Pullman cars a variation of Central's gray > and light gray? > > -- Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson PRR/ Penn Central Art) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 18:49:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Electric Years, Volume 2 Hi Jerry & List, I agree that this Morning Sun/PRR book is great. It's a must for PRR-Electric Loco fans. However, there are some huge mistakes on a couple of captions. But other than that ,it's a good book. Some fresh new photos for a change. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 19:15:43 -0500 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: Re: [PRR] technicolor corridor During the late 1960s ('68-'69) the PRR then PC did contribute some of the observations for the "Florida Special" I don't recall whether these were the "presidents" cars or the "View " cars, but they shared the honors with L&N round ended stainless steel observations. Then there were the corridor consolidations, like the "Embassy" NY-WAS, with the "Peach Queen", Pelican", and the F.F.V. The "Gulf Coast Special", "Palmland" and "NYP-Was Express' or the "Edison" "Gulf Coast" and Southern Rwy Connections. The last 2, a working B-60, a P-70, and a 10-6 (Northward) as PRR representation. Growing up 3 streets away from the Corridor did have some advantages. Especially, when observing the wintertime "Florida Fleet" Joe W. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" To: "Doug Drew" Cc: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 3:57 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] technicolor corridor > I am sure the Central was occasionally talked into exceptions, but by and large I believe they used their muscle to make others comply. > I know the PRR was not above bullying other roads into doing it their way. I know that the PRR refused to contribute cars to the Florida pools which were > not all revenue. That is they would contribute (and keep the revenue) for coaches and sleepers but would not provide diners, observation cars, or lounges. > The poor RF&P was stuck providing a lounge car for the Champion. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > Doug Drew wrote: > > > Reply to: technicolor corridor > > I used to loathe 'foreign' cars besmirching a passenger train. > > Now that I understand passenger train operations a little more, I find them fascinating, and a great opportunity to get other RR's equipment into the act. > > The PRR also had a lot of foreign cars in it's big-name limiteds' consists, too, didn't it? > > Run-through Budd stainless Santa Fe cars on some Chicago trains, and blue and white MoPac cars on the Penn-Texas, maybe others? > > You guys are saying that the Central wouldn't allow such cars sullying their "colorful" (not!) gray and light gray trains? > > Weren't the 'transcontinental" Pullman cars a variation of Central's gray and light gray? > > > > -- Doug Drew > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] 210F75a tender part 2 Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 19:19:50 -0500 Hi All, I am looking to buy about 6 HO trainphone equipment boxes like this or similar: http://users.snip.net/~billlane/prrbox.jpg I figure they would be fine for the equipment boxes on the tenders in S Scale. I am going to be working on these between Christmas and New Years, so time is getting short. Please reply to billlane@snip.net with what you have. I am still looking for photos of that area. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] I - 1 air tank Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 19:44:55 -0500 HI all, Does anyone know the dimensions of the air tank mounted under the cab like on I-1 # 4482? (still in Buffalo) I understand that the Baldwin built I-1 only had one injector and this is where this air tank was mounted. Please reply to billlane@snip.net Any help would be most appreciated. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 19:44:55 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] ***MP - I-1 air tank HI all, Does anyone know the dimensions of the air tank mounted under the cab like on I-1 # 4482? (still in Buffalo) I understand that the Baldwin built I-1 only had one injector and this is where this air tank was mounted. Please reply to billlane@snip.net Any help would be most appreciated. Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Stop Smoking Now Nicotrol will help http://us.click.yahoo.com/2vN8tD/_pSDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KLJURY@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 19:48:10 EST Subject: [PRR] Sharks Sharks were still not uncommon on the Buffalo line & the Mainline between Harrisburg/Enola & Pittsburgh well into the mid 60's. By '66 tho the only ones I saw were on the dead lines in East Altoona so I would agree 1965 was the last year of any sizeable regular service. Would be interesting to know when the last Shark actually ran on the PRR but they were certainly still active on the Pittsburgh Region in '65. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 07 Dec 2001 20:13:05 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: Re: [PRR] technicolor corridor --====56535250505555534957===1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reply to: Re: [PRR] technicolor corridor Well, yes but I think it depends on what era we're talking about. I don't know when Pullman began painting their cars in the "NYC scheme" = but the early 20th Century streamlined scheme -- the "Henry Dreyfuss" = scheme that was developed when he did the beautiful streamlining of the = Hudsons so they looked like a LOCOMOTIVE instead of a bathtub was mostly = LIGHT gray with a dark gray window panel seemed very close to the Pullman "= transcon" generic scheme. Andy, I know you're a passenger car expert, and you have probably = forgotten more than I'll ever know about this stuff. FWIW. -- Doug Drew Andrew S. Miller wrote: -I believe the two shades of grey were swapped on the Pullman cars as = compared to -the NYC cars. - -Regards, - -Andy Miller -asmiller@mitre.org - -= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= - - -"Cadwell, Marvin L" wrote: - -> After World War II, New York Central coerced the Pullman comapany into -> painting pool cars into essentially the New York Central's piant scheme = of -> two tone gray separated by whilte stripes. While I'm not sure about = the -> specific cars you refer to, the "enemy" indeed had an influence on how -> sleeping cars were painted. -> -> -----Original Message----- -> From: Norm Bell [mailto:nbell@repco.com] -> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 2:30 PM -> To: Prr-Talk; Doug Drew -> Subject: Re: [PRR] technicolor corridor -> -> Chuck Blardone and (I think) Peter Tilp collaborated on a PRRT&HS book = about -> the passenger cars of the PRR which is an excellent resource on just = about -> everything except how the numbering system worked. The gray cars were = for -> UP's (or was it ATSF?) Overland Limited not for anything to do with the -> "enemy". Norm Bell -> ----- Original Message ----- -> From: "Doug Drew" -> To: "PRR-Talk" -> Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 1:43 PM -> Subject: [PRR] technicolor corridor -> -> Reply to: technicolor corridor -> I used to loathe 'foreign' cars besmirching a passenger train. -> Now that I understand passenger train operations a little more, I find = them -> fascinating, and a great opportunity to get other RR's equipment into = the -> act. -> The PRR also had a lot of foreign cars in it's big-name limiteds' = consists, -> too, didn't it? -> Run-through Budd stainless Santa Fe cars on some Chicago trains, and = blue -> and white MoPac cars on the Penn-Texas, maybe others? -> You guys are saying that the Central wouldn't allow such cars sullying = their -> "colorful" (not!) gray and light gray trains? -> Weren't the 'transcontinental" Pullman cars a variation of Central's = gray -> and light gray? -> -> -- Doug Drew - - -RFC822 header ------------------------------------ - - Received: from rmc1.crocker.com ([204.97.12.50]) by mail.channing-bete.= com = -with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) - id YNPWR3PW; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:06:14 -0500 - Received: from smtpproxy1.mitre.org (smtpproxy1.mitre.org [129.83.20.90])= - by rmc1.crocker.com (8.11.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB7LN4l03497 - for ; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:23:04 -0500 - Received: from avsrv1.mitre.org (avsrv1.mitre.org [129.83.20.58]) - by smtpproxy1.mitre.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fB7L1E818136; - Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:01:14 -0500 (EST) - Received: from MAILHUB1 (mailhub1.mitre.org [129.83.20.31]) - by smtpsrv1.mitre.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id fB7L1Ds05715; - Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:01:13 -0500 (EST) - Received: from amiller-pc.mitre.org (129.83.216.142) by mailhub1.mitre.= org = -with SMTP - id 8509470; Fri, 07 Dec 2001 16:01:09 -0500 - Message-ID: <3C112E18.8518D66B@mitre.org> - Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 16:01:12 -0500 - From: "Andrew S. Miller" - Organization: The MITRE Corporation - X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-20000818M (Windows NT 5.0; U) - X-Accept-Language: en - MIME-Version: 1.0 - To: "Cadwell, Marvin L" - CC: "'Norm Bell'" , Prr-Talk , - Doug Drew - Subject: Re: [PRR] technicolor corridor - References: - Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii - Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit - --====56535250505555534957===1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-Ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 

         Reply to:   Re: [PRR] technicolor corridor
Well, yes = but I think it depends on what era we're = talking about.
I don't know when Pullman = began painting their cars in the "NYC = scheme" but the early 20th Century = streamlined scheme -- the "Henry Dreyfuss" = scheme that was developed when he did the = beautiful streamlining of the Hudsons so = they looked like a LOCOMOTIVE instead of = a bathtub was mostly LIGHT gray with a dark = gray window panel seemed very close to the = Pullman "transcon" generic scheme.
Andy, = I know you're a passenger car expert, and = you have probably forgotten more than I'll = ever know about this stuff. FWIW.
-- Doug = Drew

Andrew S. Miller wrote:
-I believe the two shades = of grey were swapped on the Pullman cars = as compared to
-the NYC cars.
-
-Regards,
-
-Andy = Miller
-asmiller@mitre.= org
-
-= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
-
-
-"Cadwell, = Marvin L" wrote:
-
-> After = World War II, New York Central coerced the = Pullman comapany into
-> painting pool = cars into essentially the New York Central's = piant scheme of
-> two tone gray separated = by whilte stripes. While I'm not sure about = the
-> specific cars you refer to, = the "enemy" indeed had an influence = on how
-> sleeping cars were painted.
->
-> = -----Original Message-----
-> From: = Norm Bell [= mailto:nbell@repco.com]
-> Sent: Friday, = December 07, 2001 2:30 PM
-> To: Prr-Talk; = Doug Drew
-> Subject: Re: [PRR] technicolor = corridor
->
-> Chuck Blardone = and (I think) Peter Tilp collaborated on = a PRRT&HS book about
-> the passenger = cars of the PRR which is an excellent resource = on just about
-> everything except = how the numbering system worked. The gray = cars were for
-> UP's (or was it ATSF?) = Overland Limited not for anything to do = with the
-> "enemy". Norm = Bell
-> ----- Original Message -----
-> = From: "Doug Drew" <ddrew@channing-bete.com>
-> To: "PRR-Talk" = <PRR-Talk@= dsop.com>
-> Sent: Friday, = December 07, 2001 1:43 PM
-> Subject: = [PRR] technicolor corridor
->
-> = Reply to: technicolor corridor
-> = I used to loathe 'foreign' cars besmirching = a passenger train.
-> Now that I understand = passenger train operations a little more, = I find them
-> fascinating, and a great = opportunity to get other RR's equipment = into the
-> act.
-> The PRR also = had a lot of foreign cars in it's big-name = limiteds' consists,
-> too, didn't = it?
-> Run-through Budd stainless Santa = Fe cars on some Chicago trains, and blue
-> = and white MoPac cars on the Penn-Texas, = maybe others?
-> You guys are saying = that the Central wouldn't allow such cars = sullying their
-> "colorful" = (not!) gray and light gray trains?
-> = Weren't the 'transcontinental" Pullman = cars a variation of Central's gray
-> = and light gray?
->
-> -- Doug = Drew
-
-
-RFC822 header
------------------------------------
-
- = Received: from rmc1.crocker.com ([204.97.12.50]) = by mail.channing-bete.com
-with SMTP = (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service = Version 5.5.2653.13)
- id YNPWR3PW; Fri, = 7 Dec 2001 16:06:14 -0500
- Received: = from smtpproxy1.mitre.org (smtpproxy1.mitre.org = [129.83.20.90])
- by rmc1.crocker.com = (8.11.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id fB7LN4l03497
- = for <ddrew@= channing-bete.com>; Fri, 7 Dec 2001 = 16:23:04 -0500
- Received: from avsrv1.mitre.org = (avsrv1.mitre.org [129.83.20.58])
- by = smtpproxy1.mitre.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with = ESMTP id fB7L1E818136;
- Fri, 7 Dec 2001 = 16:01:14 -0500 (EST)
- Received: from = MAILHUB1 (mailhub1.mitre.org [129.83.20.31])
- = by smtpsrv1.mitre.org (8.11.3/8.11.3) with = ESMTP id fB7L1Ds05715;
- Fri, 7 Dec 2001 = 16:01:13 -0500 (EST)
- Received: from = amiller-pc.mitre.org (129.83.216.142) by = mailhub1.mitre.org
-with SMTP
- = id 8509470; Fri, 07 Dec 2001 16:01:09 = -0500
- Message-ID: <3C112E18.8518D66B@mitre.org>
- Date: Fri, 07 = Dec 2001 16:01:12 -0500
- From: "Andrew = S. Miller" <asmiller@mitre.org>
- Organization: = The MITRE Corporation
- X-Mailer: Mozilla = 4.75 [en]C-20000818M (Windows NT 5.0; U)
- = X-Accept-Language: en
- MIME-Version: = 1.0
- To: "Cadwell, Marvin L" = <cadwelml@bp.= com>
- CC: "'Norm = Bell'" <= nbell@repco.com>, Prr-Talk <prr-talk@dsop.com<= FONT = FACE=3D"Geneva" SIZE=3D1 COLOR=3D"#000000">>,
- Doug Drew = <ddrew@= channing-bete.com>
- Subject: Re: = [PRR] technicolor corridor
- References: = <= EC8979373E35D3118BE00008C7CFB440035D0D9D@AMNAPX1>
- Content-Type: = text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii
- Content-Transfer-Encoding: = 7bit
- --====56535250505555534957===1-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JDPanza@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 20:55:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Sharks --part1_34.1f271db8.2942cd0f_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recall a pair of Sharks being used on the Plum Creek branch to Unity in 1965. The Plum Creek branch came off the Allegheny Branch at Verona. They were bumped by a RS3 until the branch was abandoned in 1966. I recall that a pair of FP7s were used for a very short period of time. In a message dated 12/7/01 6:56:37 PM Central Standard Time, KLJURY@aol.com writes: > > Sharks were still not uncommon on the Buffalo line & the Mainline between > Harrisburg/Enola & Pittsburgh well into the mid 60's. By '66 > tho the only ones I saw were on the dead lines in East Altoona so I > would agree 1965 was the last year of any sizeable regular service. > Would be interesting to know when the last Shark actually ran on the PRR > but > they were certainly still active on the Pittsburgh Region in '65. > > --part1_34.1f271db8.2942cd0f_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I recall a pair of Sharks being used on the Plum Creek branch to Unity in 1965.  The Plum Creek branch came off the Allegheny Branch at Verona.  They were bumped by a RS3 until the branch was abandoned in 1966.  I recall that a pair of FP7s were used for a very short period of time.

In a message dated 12/7/01 6:56:37 PM Central Standard Time, KLJURY@aol.com writes:

Sharks were still not uncommon on the Buffalo line & the Mainline between
Harrisburg/Enola & Pittsburgh well into the mid 60's. By '66
tho the only ones I saw were on the dead lines in East Altoona so I
would agree 1965 was the last year of any sizeable regular service.
Would be interesting to know when the last Shark actually ran on the PRR but
they were certainly still active on the Pittsburgh Region in '65.  



--part1_34.1f271db8.2942cd0f_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Technicolor PRR fleet Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 21:08:54 -0500 List: Several have discussed the Pullman Co. post WW II color scheme and its relationship to that OTHER major Eastern railroad. I believe y'all are looking at the wrong part of the country - the Pullman fleet was closest to the scheme used on Southern Pacific's "Lark" and was supposed copied from it, not the NYC. Speaking of technicolor fleets, how many railroads had a completely different color scheme for each train, like the SP? Other than the cars painted for service on other lines' trains, only the "Congo" was not tuscan red smoothside cars on PRR. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 20:16:51 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] Sharks According to Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial - Volume 4 Baldwin Cab and Transfer Units, the last of the sharks were dropped from the roster in January 1967 after having resided in the deadline for a year or more. Randy At 07:48 PM 12/7/2001 -0500, KLJURY@aol.com wrote: >Sharks were still not uncommon on the Buffalo line & the Mainline between >Harrisburg/Enola & Pittsburgh well into the mid 60's. By '66 >tho the only ones I saw were on the dead lines in East Altoona so I >would agree 1965 was the last year of any sizeable regular service. >Would be interesting to know when the last Shark actually ran on the PRR but >they were certainly still active on the Pittsburgh Region in '65. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:10:59 EST Subject: [PRR] Kitchen/Dorm/Dining Car --part1_57.30200e9.2942dec3_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List, I bought Union Station Products kits 4606 (Dining car) and 4607 (kitchen-dormitory car) to model the twin unit diner set. These are the smooth sided streamline cars. However, I cannot find information on these cars. Wasn't there a brass model of this pair offered not too many years ago. Referals to books with photos or a site with photos would be greatly appreciated. Also, any suggestions on core kits. I have the ECW kits and am working on squaring them off. The roof warp (twist) is a little perplexing. Many thanks, Evan Leisey PS Microscale has three new releases for HO PRR passenger cars. They are 1141, 1142 and 1143. --part1_57.30200e9.2942dec3_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List,

  I bought Union Station Products kits 4606 (Dining car) and 4607 (kitchen-dormitory car) to model the twin unit diner set.  These are the smooth sided streamline cars.  However,  I cannot find information on these cars.  Wasn't there a brass model of this pair offered not too many years ago.

 Referals to books with photos or a site with photos would be greatly appreciated.

 Also,  any suggestions on core kits.  I have the ECW kits and am working on squaring them off.  The roof warp (twist) is a little perplexing.

Many thanks,

Evan Leisey

PS    Microscale has three new releases for HO PRR passenger cars.  They are 1141, 1142 and 1143.

--part1_57.30200e9.2942dec3_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] 210F75a tender part 2 Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:37:23 -0600 Hi Bill--The equipment box you show is an HO Train Control Box, CalScale 190-252. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:50:16 -0600 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] I - 1 air tank Hi Bill--On the I1 an air tank was mounted below the cab on the engineer's side on locomotives equipped with an air pump on the right side. When only the left side air pump was installed, the right side air tank was mounted below the walkway, just behind the power reverse. Photos seem to indicate that it is the same size tank no matter where it was mounted. I do not have dimensions for the tank, but I do have some very good photos of the installation on 4483, Taken by Don Harper. Don carried his tape measure as well as the camera, so maybe he can help. If nothing else I can provide approximate but close measurements off the photos, if that will help you. Don, are you there? Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Quit now for Great American Smokeout http://us.click.yahoo.com/0vN8tD/9pSDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] I - 1 air tank Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 22:50:16 -0600 Hi Bill--On the I1 an air tank was mounted below the cab on the engineer's side on locomotives equipped with an air pump on the right side. When only the left side air pump was installed, the right side air tank was mounted below the walkway, just behind the power reverse. Photos seem to indicate that it is the same size tank no matter where it was mounted. I do not have dimensions for the tank, but I do have some very good photos of the installation on 4483, Taken by Don Harper. Don carried his tape measure as well as the camera, so maybe he can help. If nothing else I can provide approximate but close measurements off the photos, if that will help you. Don, are you there? Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:56:56 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] "Return to" for PRR Covered Hoppers, revision 2 Thanks to all of you who responded to help fill in the earlier table of "return to" markings. We're preparing this for publication in The Keystone and still need help on several destinations, particularly with the names of customer(s) served. A complete listing would show 1. Town and rail line 2. Text as read from car, photo, or other unimpeachable documentation 3. Name of company or list of companies served by this assignment pool. Please pardon the posting to multiple lists; we need to finalize this animal soon, and need many local inputs. Here's where we are right now: City State Line Stencil Commodity Loading customer Akron Ohio Akron Br. When empty/return to/Akron OH Baltimore Md. Return when/empty to/Clinton St./Baltimore Md Barberton Ohio Akron Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Barberton, Ohio Bellefonte Pa. Bald Eagle Br. Return Empty/to Bellefonte, Pa./PRR Crushed limestone multiple stone companies Buffalo N.Y. Buffalo Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Buffalo N.Y. Flour Cape May N.J. P-RSL Return when/empty to/Cape May NJ/PRSL Cincinnati Ohio Cincinnati District Return when empty to/Cincinnati Ohio Circleville Ohio Zanesville Br Return when/empty to PRR/Circleville Oh Detroit Mich. Toledo Div. Return Empty/to PRR/Detroit, Mich. E. Fultonham Ohio Zanesville Br., Fultonham Spur Return when/empty to PRR/E. Fultonham, Ohio Glass sand Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. Frankford Ind. Indianapolis & Frankford Br.? Return when/empty to PRR/Frankford, Ind. Gibsonburg Ohio Toledo Div. Dolomite Dolomite Glassboro N.J. P-RSL Glass sand Note: I need confirmation that Glassboro is a legitimate marking. Grand Forks N.Dak. Flour North Dakota Mill & Elevator Note: Serving railroad unknown. Undoubtedly a BN predecessor. Indianapolis Ind. Indianapolis Div. Return when/empty to PRR/Indianapolis, Ind. Kenny Pa. Monongahela Div.? Return when/empty to PRR/Kenny Pa. Kiskeminetas Jct. Pa. Conemaugh Div. Return when/empty to PRR/Kiskeminetas/Junction Pa. Lake City Minn. Milwaukee Road Flour Tennant & Hoyt Milling (Golden Loaf) Mapleton Pa. Middle Div. Main Return when/empty to PRR/Mapleton Pa. Glass sand Pennsylvania Glass Sand Martins Creek Pa. Bel-Del Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Martins Creek/Pa. Cement Alpha Cement Co McVeytown Pa. Middle Div. Main Glass sand Pennsylvania Glass Sand Millville N.J. P-RSL When empty return to/P-RSL Millville/N.J. Glass sand Wheaton Glass Minneapolis Minn. Milwaukee Road When empty return to/Minneapolis Minn./Milwaukee Road Flour International Milling Mt. Vernon Ohio Akron Br. Sand Millwood Sand (on the Howard Br.) Paris Ill. Peoria Br. Return when empty to/PRR Paris, Ill. Philadelphia Pa Philadelphia Terminal Div. Return when empty to/PRR North Stanley Yard/Philad. Portage Wis. Milwaukee Road Return when empty/to CMSt.P&P R.R./Portage, Wisc. South Kearny NJ New York Div. Return when/empty to PRR/South Kearny, N.J. Speeds Ind. Louisville Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Speeds, Ind. Cement Louisville Cement Company Toledo Ohio Toledo Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Toledo, Ohio/district Trenton Mich. Detroit-Toledo Shore Line RR Return when/empty to DTSL/Trenton, Mich. York Pa. Maryland Div. Return when/empty to PRR/York, Pa. Watkins Glen N.Y. Elmira Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Watkins Glen, N.Y. Whitlock TN L&N RR Return when/empty to L&N/Whitlock, Tenn. Winona Minn. Flour Bay State Milling PS - Bill Jewett, the email address I have for you is an old one. Please write me again. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Break free. Great American Smokeout http://us.click.yahoo.com/3vN8tD/.pSDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 00:56:56 EST Subject: [PRR] "Return to" for PRR Covered Hoppers, revision 2 Thanks to all of you who responded to help fill in the earlier table of "return to" markings. We're preparing this for publication in The Keystone and still need help on several destinations, particularly with the names of customer(s) served. A complete listing would show 1. Town and rail line 2. Text as read from car, photo, or other unimpeachable documentation 3. Name of company or list of companies served by this assignment pool. Please pardon the posting to multiple lists; we need to finalize this animal soon, and need many local inputs. Here's where we are right now: City State Line Stencil Commodity Loading customer Akron Ohio Akron Br. When empty/return to/Akron OH Baltimore Md. Return when/empty to/Clinton St./Baltimore Md Barberton Ohio Akron Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Barberton, Ohio Bellefonte Pa. Bald Eagle Br. Return Empty/to Bellefonte, Pa./PRR Crushed limestone multiple stone companies Buffalo N.Y. Buffalo Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Buffalo N.Y. Flour Cape May N.J. P-RSL Return when/empty to/Cape May NJ/PRSL Cincinnati Ohio Cincinnati District Return when empty to/Cincinnati Ohio Circleville Ohio Zanesville Br Return when/empty to PRR/Circleville Oh Detroit Mich. Toledo Div. Return Empty/to PRR/Detroit, Mich. E. Fultonham Ohio Zanesville Br., Fultonham Spur Return when/empty to PRR/E. Fultonham, Ohio Glass sand Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. Frankford Ind. Indianapolis & Frankford Br.? Return when/empty to PRR/Frankford, Ind. Gibsonburg Ohio Toledo Div. Dolomite Dolomite Glassboro N.J. P-RSL Glass sand Note: I need confirmation that Glassboro is a legitimate marking. Grand Forks N.Dak. Flour North Dakota Mill & Elevator Note: Serving railroad unknown. Undoubtedly a BN predecessor. Indianapolis Ind. Indianapolis Div. Return when/empty to PRR/Indianapolis, Ind. Kenny Pa. Monongahela Div.? Return when/empty to PRR/Kenny Pa. Kiskeminetas Jct. Pa. Conemaugh Div. Return when/empty to PRR/Kiskeminetas/Junction Pa. Lake City Minn. Milwaukee Road Flour Tennant & Hoyt Milling (Golden Loaf) Mapleton Pa. Middle Div. Main Return when/empty to PRR/Mapleton Pa. Glass sand Pennsylvania Glass Sand Martins Creek Pa. Bel-Del Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Martins Creek/Pa. Cement Alpha Cement Co McVeytown Pa. Middle Div. Main Glass sand Pennsylvania Glass Sand Millville N.J. P-RSL When empty return to/P-RSL Millville/N.J. Glass sand Wheaton Glass Minneapolis Minn. Milwaukee Road When empty return to/Minneapolis Minn./Milwaukee Road Flour International Milling Mt. Vernon Ohio Akron Br. Sand Millwood Sand (on the Howard Br.) Paris Ill. Peoria Br. Return when empty to/PRR Paris, Ill. Philadelphia Pa Philadelphia Terminal Div. Return when empty to/PRR North Stanley Yard/Philad. Portage Wis. Milwaukee Road Return when empty/to CMSt.P&P R.R./Portage, Wisc. South Kearny NJ New York Div. Return when/empty to PRR/South Kearny, N.J. Speeds Ind. Louisville Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Speeds, Ind. Cement Louisville Cement Company Toledo Ohio Toledo Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Toledo, Ohio/district Trenton Mich. Detroit-Toledo Shore Line RR Return when/empty to DTSL/Trenton, Mich. York Pa. Maryland Div. Return when/empty to PRR/York, Pa. Watkins Glen N.Y. Elmira Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Watkins Glen, N.Y. Whitlock TN L&N RR Return when/empty to L&N/Whitlock, Tenn. Winona Minn. Flour Bay State Milling PS - Bill Jewett, the email address I have for you is an old one. Please write me again. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 10:27:30 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] I - 1 air tank From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Bill et al. I have the engineering drawings of the compressed air systems for both the one and two air compressor versions of the I-1. I will get the dimensions of the air tanks when I go home in a few minutes. Will send to Bill from home and he can send to the group if case anyone else wants the data. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: "Bill Lane" >To: "PRR Talk" , "PRR Modeling" , "PRR Fax" >Subject: [PRR] I - 1 air tank >Date: Fri, 07 Dec, 2001, 18:44 > > HI all, > > Does anyone know the dimensions of the air tank mounted under the cab like > on I-1 # 4482? (still in Buffalo) I understand that the Baldwin built I-1 > only had one injector and this is where this air tank was mounted. Please > reply to billlane@snip.net Any help would be most appreciated. > > Thanks > Bill > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 10:32:51 -0600 Subject: [PRR] PRR: Looking for Rick Siller From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Rick Siller. Are you still on the list? Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 11:59:41 -0500 From: "Michael A. Hmel" Subject: [PRR] Shark survival ? Hey list , Speaking of Sharks ........ Any Sharks still around anywhere ? Did any get saved or are they all gone ! Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 15:33:18 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: Re: [PRR] Shark survival ? The only two sharks I know of are the two ex. NYC, Monongahela, D&H RF-16's stored under lock and key in upper Michigan. Randy At 11:59 AM 12/8/2001 -0500, Michael A. Hmel wrote: >Hey list , > >Speaking of Sharks ........ >Any Sharks still around anywhere ? Did any get saved or are they all gone ! > >Mike > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:36:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Shark survival ? Mike, 2 Sharks survive today. They are up in northern Michigan in storage on the Escanaba and Lake Superior?. The owner won't share them with rail fans. Seems he was sued? by someone who got hurt trying to get in to take photos etc. Heard a Builders Plate was taken too. All this occured within the last 10? years or so. Still painted in D&H. One may have a scorched drive shaft......Too bad no BP-20's survived......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RTSILLER@aol.com Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 11:28:23 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Looking for Rick Siller --part1_188.2cc40a.2944eb27_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm still here. I've already sent a note to Bill and I was able to get some measurements on the air tank under the cab. The body of the tank is 49.5" long. Each end is convex and adds an additional 2.5" to the length of the tank for an overall length of 54.5". The tank is 76" in circumference which, if my calculator is working correctly, makes it about 24.2" in diameter. I took the digital camera and got some pictures so now I just have to clean up some space to store them. In the mean time an ok picture of the cab and tank can be found at: http://members.aol.com/rtsiller/4483-cab.jpg The tank sits in two brackets that support the bottom with two bands clamping the tank in place. Rick --part1_188.2cc40a.2944eb27_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm still here.  I've already sent a note to Bill and I was able to get some measurements on the air tank under the cab.  The body of the tank is 49.5" long.  Each end is convex and adds an additional 2.5" to the length of the tank for an overall length of 54.5".  The tank is 76" in circumference which, if my calculator is working correctly, makes it about 24.2" in diameter.  

I took the digital camera and got some pictures so now I just have to clean up some space to store them.  In the mean time an ok picture of the cab and tank can be found at:

http://members.aol.com/rtsiller/4483-cab.jpg

The tank sits in two brackets that support the bottom with two bands clamping the tank in place.

Rick

--part1_188.2cc40a.2944eb27_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Shark survival ? Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 07:58:48 -0600 The last time I actually saw one of the sharks was in the mid to late 80's in St. Paul Minn. where it was being rebuilt following the scored crankshaft incident. The engine was removed and the top of the car body was gone so the engine could come out. The rebuilder said he thought it never would be rebuilt and I am not so sure the work was ever completed or that the engine was ever put back in. I was amazed at the amount of room there was in that cab. You could have ten railfans in there while running and still not crowd anybody. I got some pictures of the gutted engine room and the cab that I have somewhere. It sat there for close to a year. The iron ore railroads are all leary of railfans. More than one has signs posted saying railfans not welcome or wanted following some thefts. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael A. Hmel" To: "prr-talk list" Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 10:59 AM Subject: [PRR] Shark survival ? > Hey list , > > Speaking of Sharks ........ > Any Sharks still around anywhere ? Did any get saved or are they all gone ! > > Mike > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 08:13:45 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] A nice (ex) PRR model Y'all might want to check out the following on the yehaw goups diesel modeler site: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DIESEL-modeler/files/penn1.jpg Its of a PC E-8 in PRR colors, by a modeler named John Pitts. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 09:40:20 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Kitchen/Dorm/Dining Car --------------1E3F58AEA2EC05CBD2D8C1B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My preference for "Core Kits" has always been to use an old Rivarossi streamlined roof. I pick up junkers at train shows for this purpose. You have to remove the "band-aid" and any other roof fixtures not appropriate for your prototype. I cut the windows off the sides leaving only about 1/4 inch of the original window for strength and to align the roof with the sides. I use .030 or .040 brass sheet cut to 1.25 in width for the floor. This gives the car a reasonable weight in the right place. I solder (or use ACC) brass angles along the floor edge to strengthen the joint with the Plexiglas sides. Use .125 inch plastic channel back-to-back for the center sill. For PS or ACF cars, the end is very plain and easy to build from sheet plastic. I am using this technique on the two Laser Horizons P70GSRs currently on my work bench. As soon as I corner a friend with a digital camera, I will provide Jerry with fotos to post. BTW I get the brass sheet from McMaster-Carr (www.mcmaster.com). Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > List, > > I bought Union Station Products kits 4606 (Dining car) and 4607 > (kitchen-dormitory car) to model the twin unit diner set. These are > the smooth sided streamline cars. However, I cannot find information > on these cars. Wasn't there a brass model of this pair offered not > too many years ago. > > Referals to books with photos or a site with photos would be greatly > appreciated. > > Also, any suggestions on core kits. I have the ECW kits and am > working on squaring them off. The roof warp (twist) is a little > perplexing. > > Many thanks, > > Evan Leisey > > PS Microscale has three new releases for HO PRR passenger cars. > They are 1141, 1142 and 1143. > -- --------------1E3F58AEA2EC05CBD2D8C1B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My preference for "Core Kits" has always been to use an old Rivarossi streamlined roof.  I pick up junkers at train shows for this purpose.  You have to remove the "band-aid" and any other roof fixtures not appropriate for your prototype.  I cut the windows off the sides leaving only about 1/4 inch of the original window for strength and to align the roof with the sides.   I use .030 or .040 brass sheet cut to 1.25 in width for the floor.  This gives the car a reasonable weight in the right place.   I solder (or use ACC) brass angles along the floor edge to strengthen the joint with the Plexiglas sides.  Use .125 inch plastic  channel back-to-back for the center sill.  For PS or ACF cars, the end is very plain and easy to build from sheet plastic.

I am using this technique on the two Laser Horizons P70GSRs currently on my work bench.  As soon as I corner a friend with a digital camera, I will provide Jerry with fotos to post.

BTW I get the brass sheet from McMaster-Carr (www.mcmaster.com).

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================
RDG2124@aol.com wrote:

List,

  I bought Union Station Products kits 4606 (Dining car) and 4607 (kitchen-dormitory car) to model the twin unit diner set.  These are the smooth sided streamline cars.  However,  I cannot find information on these cars.  Wasn't there a brass model of this pair offered not too many years ago.

 Referals to books with photos or a site with photos would be greatly appreciated.

 Also,  any suggestions on core kits.  I have the ECW kits and am working on squaring them off.  The roof warp (twist) is a little perplexing.

Many thanks,

Evan Leisey

PS    Microscale has three new releases for HO PRR passenger cars.  They are 1141, 1142 and 1143.
 

--
 
 
  --------------1E3F58AEA2EC05CBD2D8C1B0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 08:46:43 -0600 Subject: [PRR] PRR: I-1 air tank From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Bill Man, I'm glad you asked that question. I had not paid attention to the size differences and just mounted the Bowser supplied tank under the cab. The air tank of the one compressor system is 2' 9" long x 16" in diameter and has 3/4" pipes entering and exiting. The air tank of the two compressor system is 4' 6" long x 23 3/4" diameter. I could not find a dimension of the pipes entering and exiting the cylinder, but by scaling from the 2.5 compressor exhaust pipe these pipes are 1.75" in diameter I suspect they moved the tank because it would not fit in the space beneath the reverser and in front of the newly mounted right side air compressor. The under cab tank vertical center is 5' 4 3/4" from the back edge of the cab Some other data The air pump exhaust pipes are 2.5" in diameter Don Harper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:14:52 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Microscale Decals (Was:Kitchen/Dorm/Dining Car) --------------9C6BBE952BBBED0A05BDE5C6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1141 is car names and letterboards, both streamlined and heavyweight (no matter what the catalog says) 1142 car cars stripes, apparently on gold leaf since it claims to be "pre 1935" 143 is heavyweight car names. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > List, > > I bought Union Station Products kits 4606 (Dining car) and 4607 > (kitchen-dormitory car) to model the twin unit diner set. These are > the smooth sided streamline cars. However, I cannot find information > on these cars. Wasn't there a brass model of this pair offered not > too many years ago. > > Referals to books with photos or a site with photos would be greatly > appreciated. > > Also, any suggestions on core kits. I have the ECW kits and am > working on squaring them off. The roof warp (twist) is a little > perplexing. > > Many thanks, > > Evan Leisey > > PS Microscale has three new releases for HO PRR passenger cars. > They are 1141, 1142 and 1143. --------------9C6BBE952BBBED0A05BDE5C6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1141 is car names and letterboards, both streamlined and heavyweight (no matter what the catalog says)

1142 car cars stripes, apparently on gold leaf since it claims to be "pre 1935"

143 is heavyweight car names.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================

RDG2124@aol.com wrote:

List,

  I bought Union Station Products kits 4606 (Dining car) and 4607 (kitchen-dormitory car) to model the twin unit diner set.  These are the smooth sided streamline cars.  However,  I cannot find information on these cars.  Wasn't there a brass model of this pair offered not too many years ago.

 Referals to books with photos or a site with photos would be greatly appreciated.

 Also,  any suggestions on core kits.  I have the ECW kits and am working on squaring them off.  The roof warp (twist) is a little perplexing.

Many thanks,

Evan Leisey

PS    Microscale has three new releases for HO PRR passenger cars.  They are 1141, 1142 and 1143.

--------------9C6BBE952BBBED0A05BDE5C6-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 09:21:55 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Re: Shark survival From: John Sheets Was there not another shark, a B-unit, somewhere in the coal regions of Pennsylvania at a mine/breaker serving as a generator? Believe it was painted in a red primer with cables connected thru the radiator housing. At some time, it may have been spotted at the old RDG yard in Rutherford, Pa near Harrisburg, all this about 4-5 years ago. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Shark survival Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 09:37:33 -0600 The surviving shark you mentioned is described in the following web-site: http://www.northeast.railfan.net/aott3_1.html Somehwere on that web-site there is a picture of the shark. -----Original Message----- From: John Sheets [mailto:john@mpa-inc.com] Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 9:22 AM To: PRR Talk Subject: [PRR] Re: Shark survival Was there not another shark, a B-unit, somewhere in the coal regions of Pennsylvania at a mine/breaker serving as a generator? Believe it was painted in a red primer with cables connected thru the radiator housing. At some time, it may have been spotted at the old RDG yard in Rutherford, Pa near Harrisburg, all this about 4-5 years ago. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 13:40:00 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Shark survival On Mon, 10 Dec 2001, Cadwell, Marvin L wrote: > The surviving shark you mentioned is described in the following web-site: > > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/aott3_1.html > > Somehwere on that web-site there is a picture of the shark. Pictures here: http://nepa.railfan.net/pshark.html I have this idea that a later edition of "Ahead of the Torch" said it was gone as of when the breaker was torn down or imploded or somesuch, but the Ahead of the Torch site is gone. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson PRR/ Penn Central Art) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:26:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Diesel Era Magazine/PRR Article. Hey Listers, There is a great PRR article in the latest "Diesel Era" magazine. The article is called "Wreck Survivor: Pennsy 4359". Great article with great photos penned by Dan Cupper. A must for PRR fans. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: [PRR] Alttona web page Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:44:18 -0600 The attached link is from the city of Altoona and has a section devoted to railroad pictures (read PRR!). All are black and white but there are some nice shots of T1's through F units. Norm Bell http://pages.prodigy.com/altoonaarchives/home.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 19:00:25 EST From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Kris Kollar has done it again! Hey Yuze Gize, I just received my copy of Mainline Modeler's January issue and as promised Kris'article has been published. It is the feature article and to my surprise he has also instructed us on how to make the darn Bachmann's run better. So it is rather lengthy for part one and I am looking forward to next month's installment to see how well he finishes this. I mean to tell you he loaded this baby with detail too... and YUP the roof hatch is open! Dang it must be one nice piece of finished equipment. Greg Martrin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:24:53 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] Kris Kollar has done it again! Greg, list I got the January issue on Saturday 8 December. I've reread the article about 4 times. It's even nicer than the L1s article which I thoroughly enjoyed and will be referring to when I start my just-purchased L1s. Kris has done a lot of research and it shows in the engine awaiting paint (minor quibble; K4s 3750 was renumbered to 1737 to stand in for the deteriorated original. However, 3750 regained her original number circa 1984 when the Friends of the RR Museum of PA did some heavy duty preservation work on her). I can't wait to finish moving so I can start redetailing my Bachmann engines and my Bachmann/Bowser/Alco hybrid. This issue of MM is very worthwhile for PRR steam fans! I eagerly await the next issue which should be the conclusion (I hope it has a list of parts used). Doug --- TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Hey Yuze Gize, > > I just received my copy of Mainline Modeler's > January issue and as promised Kris'article has been > published. It is the feature article and to my > surprise he has also instructed us on how to make > the darn Bachmann's run better. So it is rather > lengthy for part one and I am looking forward to > next month's installment to see how well he finishes > this. I mean to tell you he loaded this baby with > detail too... and YUP the roof hatch is open! Dang > it must be one nice piece of finished equipment. > > Greg Martrin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:39:02 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Website Updated I have added the following trains to my website: SW-8 VL-2 Have added the following local arranged freight train service: Lake Region Here is the URL: http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/whats_new.htm Regards, Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy Williamson Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:39:02 -0600 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PP - Arranged Freight Train Service Website Updated I have added the following trains to my website: SW-8 VL-2 Have added the following local arranged freight train service: Lake Region Here is the URL: http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/whats_new.htm Regards, Randy ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Promise to Quit Nicotrol will help http://us.click.yahoo.com/5vN8tD/AqSDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 19:41:00 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: [PRR] Colonial Crafts? Hi All, While making my connection from the Starlight to the Sunset in Los Angeles Union Station a few weeks back I spotted a line of old passenger cars on one of the dimly lit platform tracks across from my platform. One of them was an old California Zephyr car named the Silver Lariat? At least one of them had a sign saying rent this car in the window. When the Sunset pulled out of the station I watched as we went down the line of old cars and spotted one that got the heart pumping and made me want to pull the brake cord. It was an old Pennsy passenger car named, I believe, the "Colonial Craft". Has anyone seen this car there or have any info on it. Still, as far as I could tell in, original PRR colors and lettering. This also brings to mind the car I see whenever I go to my friends apartment in Springfield, Oregon. It is parked alongside the relocated Southern Pacific Springfield Depot. Seems like I read that it was an ex-PRR baggage or baggage/mail car. It has been painted for SP but has the porthole windows and the trucks sure look like PRR trucks to me. I wonder if Greg Martin knows about this PRR in Oregon? I could go buy and look for more evidence if anyone else is interested. Maybe a builders plate or something is still there. What should I look for? Thanks, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:01:23 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Covered hoppers return to Frankfort Indiana In a message dated 12/10/01 3:58:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: << Message: 2 Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 14:20:02 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: Re: Rick: "Return to" for PRR Covered Hoppers, revision 2 Rick: Regarding "Frankford:" It is as you say, not findeable on any contemporary map that I have. My question is: is there any indication as to the customer using these cars? Richard Wallis >> Richard, There is not. The notations we found were in a table added to an arrangement drawing; of course, purpose of the drawing is to get the lettering properly placed on an ACF cylindrical hopper. This drawing is included with The PRR Compendium, but (surprise!) is a pre-numbered pre-issued C-sheet (the bulk of covered hopper arrangement drawings are D- sheets). All we know is that the four H44's specified (#260401-260404) have round roof hatches and gravity outlets. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Quit now for Great American Smokeout http://us.click.yahoo.com/0vN8tD/9pSDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:01:23 EST Subject: [PRR] Covered hoppers return to Frankfort Indiana In a message dated 12/10/01 3:58:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: << Message: 2 Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 14:20:02 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: Re: Rick: "Return to" for PRR Covered Hoppers, revision 2 Rick: Regarding "Frankford:" It is as you say, not findeable on any contemporary map that I have. My question is: is there any indication as to the customer using these cars? Richard Wallis >> Richard, There is not. The notations we found were in a table added to an arrangement drawing; of course, purpose of the drawing is to get the lettering properly placed on an ACF cylindrical hopper. This drawing is included with The PRR Compendium, but (surprise!) is a pre-numbered pre-issued C-sheet (the bulk of covered hopper arrangement drawings are D- sheets). All we know is that the four H44's specified (#260401-260404) have round roof hatches and gravity outlets. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:05:16 -0500 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] Colonial Crafts? Ron Dugas wrote: > > While making my connection from the Starlight to the Sunset in Los > Angeles Union Station a few weeks back I spotted a line of old passenger > cars on one of the dimly lit platform tracks across from my platform. > One of them was an old California Zephyr car named the Silver Lariat? At > least one of them had a sign saying rent this car in the window. When > the Sunset pulled out of the station I watched as we went down the line > of old cars and spotted one that got the heart pumping and made me want > to pull the brake cord. It was an old Pennsy passenger car named, I > believe, the "Colonial Craft". Has anyone seen this car there or have > any info on it. Still, as far as I could tell in, original PRR colors > and lettering. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ron- Colonial Crafts was a PRR streamlined Pullman sleeper #8412. Was a 1DR-3DB-Lounge car, Class-PS13L. Rebuilt 5/64 to Parlor car 7149. Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 01:09:58 EST Subject: [PRR] Time to share some news... Hey Yuze Gize... I thought I let you all know that about mid 2002 you are going to see the release of another plastic steam locomotive. This will be a state of the art piece and will have all the current features found in the competitors product but it will raise the bar in the hobby again. Won't these look nice will a Century in tow? I can't tell you all I know just yet, but I can tell you that this Locomotive will be an NYC class J1e 4-6-4 Hudson. They will be available in two road numbers (#5343 & 5344) and unlettered. I can tell you this is a new company and that, at least for the time being, they are keeping quiet. I will tell you that by the time my February Scuttlebutt is Published you will know as much as I do. They are promising an aggressive schedule of things to come... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:39:56 -0500 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Colonial Crafts? Colonial Crafts is indeed the PRR Colonial Crafts owned by Rod and Ellen Fishburn who reside in Aouthern California. Check the AAPRCO web site for detailed information on the Car. Bennett Ron Dugas wrote: > > Hi All, > > While making my connection from the Starlight to the Sunset in Los > Angeles Union Station a few weeks back I spotted a line of old passenger > cars on one of the dimly lit platform tracks across from my platform. > One of them was an old California Zephyr car named the Silver Lariat? At > least one of them had a sign saying rent this car in the window. When > the Sunset pulled out of the station I watched as we went down the line > of old cars and spotted one that got the heart pumping and made me want > to pull the brake cord. It was an old Pennsy passenger car named, I > believe, the "Colonial Craft". Has anyone seen this car there or have > any info on it. Still, as far as I could tell in, original PRR colors > and lettering. > > This also brings to mind the car I see whenever I go to my friends > apartment in Springfield, Oregon. It is parked alongside the relocated > Southern Pacific Springfield Depot. Seems like I read that it was an > ex-PRR baggage or baggage/mail car. It has been painted for SP but has > the porthole windows and the trucks sure look like PRR trucks to me. I > wonder if Greg Martin knows about this PRR in Oregon? I could go buy and > look for more evidence if anyone else is interested. Maybe a builders > plate or something is still there. What should I look for? > > Thanks, > > Ron. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:43:48 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Colonial Crafts? From: Jerry Britton On 12/10/01 10:41 PM, Ron Dugas at (rond@efn.org) wrote: > While making my connection from the Starlight to the Sunset in Los > Angeles Union Station a few weeks back I spotted a line of old passenger > cars on one of the dimly lit platform tracks across from my platform. > One of them was an old California Zephyr car named the Silver Lariat? At > least one of them had a sign saying rent this car in the window. When > the Sunset pulled out of the station I watched as we went down the line > of old cars and spotted one that got the heart pumping and made me want > to pull the brake cord. It was an old Pennsy passenger car named, I > believe, the "Colonial Craft". Has anyone seen this car there or have > any info on it. Still, as far as I could tell in, original PRR colors > and lettering. > Excellent find...I didn't know any of the Colonial's had survived! It should be noted that there were 9 "Colonial ___" cars built in 1938 as class PS31L and 9 built in 1949 as class PS13L. The difference in classes has to do with the floor plan...specifically the order in which the rooms appeared from one end to the other. As previously noted the "Colonial Crafts" was built in 1949, car #8412 and was rebuilt as a Parlor #7149 in 5/1964. I checked the 1954 "Makeup of Trains" book for the New York Division. I can account for the assignment of 9 of the Colonial cars, but not the Colonial Crafts. The Colonial Crafts was a mid-train lounge and one was used on the Liberty Limited, running from Washington to Chicago. It is reasonable to suggest that, based on its absence from the New York Division document, that it is plausible the Colonial Crafts was one of two mid-train lounges assigned to the Liberty Limited. (Speculation!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:53:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR N8 List I am well into the building of my next large scale, 1:29th, Cabin Car, the N8 Class. Final Porch work, Diamond Tread, End Railings, Train Phone, Painting and Lettering is all that remains. Still seems like a lot of work though. Pics will be upcoming when 100% finished. For this project I have been using drawings and my HO Scale Precision Scale N8 model for guidance. I have always heard the Precision Scale model is/was the best N8 built in any scale. I have owned that model since they were released in the mid/late 80's. While gazing at the model and gazing at plans and photos, I noticed a pretty big mistake on this brass model. Seems the builders messed up on the position of the "anti" Collision posts on the porch end. These are "U" Channels with the flat end portion positioned on the inside. All photos and plans I have seen of the N8 have this detail reversed with the flat end of the channel to the outside. Are there variations on this N8 Class? I do know the N5b had them positioned the opposite way of the N8. Anyone else have this HO PreScale N8 Model? Is your collision posts positioned wrong too or is it just my model? Luckily I caught this on my 1:29th N8 before the glue completely dried, Whewww! ...Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 12:53:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR N8 List I am well into the building of my next large scale, 1:29th, Cabin Car, the N8 Class. Final Porch work, Diamond Tread, End Railings, Train Phone, Painting and Lettering is all that remains. Still seems like a lot of work though. Pics will be upcoming when 100% finished. For this project I have been using drawings and my HO Scale Precision Scale N8 model for guidance. I have always heard the Precision Scale model is/was the best N8 built in any scale. I have owned that model since they were released in the mid/late 80's. While gazing at the model and gazing at plans and photos, I noticed a pretty big mistake on this brass model. Seems the builders messed up on the position of the "anti" Collision posts on the porch end. These are "U" Channels with the flat end portion positioned on the inside. All photos and plans I have seen of the N8 have this detail reversed with the flat end of the channel to the outside. Are there variations on this N8 Class? I do know the N5b had them positioned the opposite way of the N8. Anyone else have this HO PreScale N8 Model? Is your collision posts positioned wrong too or is it just my model? Luckily I caught this on my 1:29th N8 before the glue completely dried, Whewww! ...Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Quit now for Great American Smokeout http://us.click.yahoo.com/0vN8tD/9pSDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:45:05 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Schock Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/01/01 List, I am way behind on my emails for this list, but can anyone help me with the REA express car?? I was wondering when this would have been in service? and would this car have been added to a PRR passenger train (front or rear)? I model the transition period, and I have a PRR heavyweight passenger set and a corrugated passenger set. I am assuming that if I can use it, then it would go with the corrugated set! Any information on the REA express card would be great has far as prototype running of it1 Thanks Mike > Subject: New Walthers Passenger Cars > From: "Andrew S. Miller" > Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 09:23:26 -0500 > > Someone on the Passenger car list passed the word > that Walthers has just > announced four new HO cars. One is an REA Express > reefer (stealing the > thunder from the long overdue Branchline kit) and > another appears to be > a Congo Parlor Car! Will Walthers be doing the > whole Congo/Senator??? > :-)))) > > http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-6241 > > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > ===== Mike Schock Sandusky, Ohio Modeling the B&O and PRR during the Transition Period __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/01/01 Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:29:22 -0500 Mike:- The car being made by Walthers is similar to the one already available in N scale from Micro-Trains. These were built in 1957 and used up to the PRR-NYC merger, so it would fit right in with your streamlined set. It would have been on the head end of the train. Unfortunately, you have a corrugated set, which would have been used for the Congressional Limited - too high class a train to handle express traffic, but quite common on the Florida trains. I used to see these cars often in Sunnyside Yard and at the Long Island REA facility in Garden City. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Schock" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 1:45 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/01/01 > List, > > I am way behind on my emails for this list, but can > anyone help me with the REA express car?? I was > wondering when this would have been in service? and > would this car have been added to a PRR passenger > train (front or rear)? > > I model the transition period, and I have a PRR > heavyweight passenger set and a corrugated passenger > set. I am assuming that if I can use it, then it > would go with the corrugated set! Any information on > the REA express card would be great has far as > prototype running of it1 > Thanks > > Mike > > > Subject: New Walthers Passenger Cars > > From: "Andrew S. Miller" > > Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 09:23:26 -0500 > > > > Someone on the Passenger car list passed the word > > that Walthers has just > > announced four new HO cars. One is an REA Express > > reefer (stealing the > > thunder from the long overdue Branchline kit) and > > another appears to be > > a Congo Parlor Car! Will Walthers be doing the > > whole Congo/Senator??? > > :-)))) > > > > http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-6241 > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Andy Miller > > asmiller@mitre.org > > > > > ===== > Mike Schock > Sandusky, Ohio > Modeling the B&O and PRR during the Transition Period > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steven Hanlon" Subject: [PRR] greetings and a mount union question Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 00:07:23 -0200 greetings all, after a nearly 3.5 months of being off the list, i have returned. i was rather depressed and fed up with trains after having been fired from MTH and now i'm ready to get back to discussing my favorite subject, the PRR and the Middle Division. i recently went hiking in Jack's Narrows and with the barren trees had an amazing view of Mount Union and what was the NARCO and EBT yard area. the climb up the famous "1000 steps" was a trip i had made many times, but never specifically to watch trains. NS did not let me down. my noontime lunch reservation at the top afforded me a great view of an empty coal porter train heading west met the east bound #40 Three Rivers on the Juniata River trestle. several sections of containers went past in each direction within an hours time. a total of 10 trains in under 2 hours. NS seems to be matching the volume i remember from the early 90's when i attended Juniata College in Huntingdon. i am curious about the remains of a trestle that bridged the Juniata just east of the narrows that supported the ganister quarry operations atop Jack's Mountian. did the line connect with the PRR or EBT, or was this a private affair for Harbison-Walker on the west side of Mount Union? -steve hanlon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:21:45 -0500 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] IHC Passenger cars List- Does anybody know what class of car & what names are on the following new Rivarossi cars: HW PRR 8-1-2 sleeper LW PRR Smooth sides- Duplex sleeper LW PRR Corrugated sides- Congo Duplex sleeper Are any of these accurate (or close) PRR cars? Thanks, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 00:54:31 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] greetings and a mount union question Steve, and fellow "narrow minded" listers ... The piers in the Juniata in Jacks Narrows are the remains of the truss bridge that carried the Harbison-Walker gannister quarry tram. The tram connected on the north bank with an inclined plane that brought loads down from the Harbison-Walker quarry. The bridge was washed away in the St. Patrick's Day 1936 flooding; I don't think it was rebuilt. I believe the H-W tram was 42" gauge, but I could be wrong ... it was definitely narrow gauge. It was not connected to the EBT. Vagel Keller, Pittsburgh Asst. VP, Museum Operations Friends of the East Broad Top ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 23:58:57 -0800 (PST) From: joe hildenbrand Subject: [PRR] Greatness of the PRR Greetings, The greatness and the size of the PRR is staggering. A humorous example was when my father visited me here in Texas. I was driving along the ex- ASTF now very busy BNSF line connecting Ft Worth TX and Oklahoma City OK. I pointed out to him that the one track line is the main line between the two cities. Now my dad being a native from the PRR Mainline area outside Philly, just laughed and said "You call that a main line?!" Joe Hildenbrand __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 03:25:13 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR N8 --part1_165.5764f7e.29486e69_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary, My 2 N8's, the N5B, and the N5E all have the collision post done the same way. These are all done by Precision Scale. Todd Horton --part1_165.5764f7e.29486e69_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary, My 2 N8's, the N5B, and the N5E all have the collision post done the same way. These are all done by Precision Scale. Todd Horton --part1_165.5764f7e.29486e69_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Thank You Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 06:44:25 -0500 Hi All, I would sincerely like to thank everyone who has responded to my I-1 and tender questions. It is MOST appreciated. The information is invaluable. It is nice to see there are other modelers who want to "get it right". Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 06:44:25 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Thank You Hi All, I would sincerely like to thank everyone who has responded to my I-1 and tender questions. It is MOST appreciated. The information is invaluable. It is nice to see there are other modelers who want to "get it right". Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Break free. Great American Smokeout http://us.click.yahoo.com/3vN8tD/.pSDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 08:32:20 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] REA Express Car (was:PRR-Talk Digest) Mike, REA had two series of very similar cars. There are subtle, but very noticeable differences between them. The first series was built in 1948(?). It is the car that Branchline will produce. The second series was built in 1957 (again ?). This is the Walthers car. So we are to be blessed (eventually) with both. Since you are in the "transition" period, the Walthers car might be just outside of you timeframe, but the Branchline car will be right-on. These cars were typical head end, and as Gregg said, were very common on the Florida trains. I don't know what your corrugated set is. These cars also appeared on the front end of corridor trains all the time. They also populated mail trains and the head end of east-west trains. Mix them up with B60 baggage cars and X29 Express box cars and you've got the picture of the PRR in the transition era. For good measure throw in a NH converted troop sleeper ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > Mike:- > > The car being made by Walthers is similar to the one already available in N > scale from Micro-Trains. These were built in 1957 and used up to the PRR-NYC > merger, so it would fit right in with your streamlined set. It would have > been on the head end of the train. Unfortunately, you have a corrugated set, > which would have been used for the Congressional Limited - too high class a > train to handle express traffic, but quite common on the Florida trains. I > used to see these cars often in Sunnyside Yard and at the Long Island REA > facility in Garden City. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Schock" > To: "PRR-Talk" > Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 1:45 PM > Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/01/01 > > > List, > > > > I am way behind on my emails for this list, but can > > anyone help me with the REA express car?? I was > > wondering when this would have been in service? and > > would this car have been added to a PRR passenger > > train (front or rear)? > > > > I model the transition period, and I have a PRR > > heavyweight passenger set and a corrugated passenger > > set. I am assuming that if I can use it, then it > > would go with the corrugated set! Any information on > > the REA express card would be great has far as > > prototype running of it1 > > Thanks > > > > Mike > > > > > Subject: New Walthers Passenger Cars > > > From: "Andrew S. Miller" > > > Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 09:23:26 -0500 > > > > > > Someone on the Passenger car list passed the word > > > that Walthers has just > > > announced four new HO cars. One is an REA Express > > > reefer (stealing the > > > thunder from the long overdue Branchline kit) and > > > another appears to be > > > a Congo Parlor Car! Will Walthers be doing the > > > whole Congo/Senator??? > > > :-)))) > > > > > > http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-6241 > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Andy Miller > > > asmiller@mitre.org > > > > > > > > > ===== > > Mike Schock > > Sandusky, Ohio > > Modeling the B&O and PRR during the Transition Period ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 08:53:08 EST From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] REA Express Car (was:PRR-Talk Digest) Mike & gents, I noticed Andy's reply to an inquiry about the steel REA cars, though not the original question. One difference that comes to mind between the two series of cars is that the earlier cars had welded sides and the later ones were riveted. Another very temporary difference was that the early cars carried, for a matter of months only it seems, that silver/green paint scheme which you sometimes see on models of these cars. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew S. Miller" Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 08:58:55 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] IHC Passenger cars As far as a PRR prototype for the current crop of IHC cars, they can be modified with simple tools such as a hiking boot, into a reasonable stand-in for a load for the New York City Sanitation Dept gondolas. I am working on an article on this for MAD Magazine ;-) Actually, some of the fluted cars (the coach, diner, and head end cars) are Southern Ry prototype and would have appeared on the Corridor on their Penn Station NY connection. "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" wrote: > List- > > Does anybody know what class of car & what names are on the following > new Rivarossi cars: > > HW PRR 8-1-2 sleeper > > LW PRR Smooth sides- Duplex sleeper > > LW PRR Corrugated sides- Congo Duplex sleeper > > Are any of these accurate (or close) PRR cars? > > Thanks, > Eddie > > Dr. Edmond L. Freed > PRRT&HS # 156 > Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Break free. Great American Smokeout http://us.click.yahoo.com/3vN8tD/.pSDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 08:58:55 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] IHC Passenger cars As far as a PRR prototype for the current crop of IHC cars, they can be modified with simple tools such as a hiking boot, into a reasonable stand-in for a load for the New York City Sanitation Dept gondolas. I am working on an article on this for MAD Magazine ;-) Actually, some of the fluted cars (the coach, diner, and head end cars) are Southern Ry prototype and would have appeared on the Corridor on their Penn Station NY connection. "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" wrote: > List- > > Does anybody know what class of car & what names are on the following > new Rivarossi cars: > > HW PRR 8-1-2 sleeper > > LW PRR Smooth sides- Duplex sleeper > > LW PRR Corrugated sides- Congo Duplex sleeper > > Are any of these accurate (or close) PRR cars? > > Thanks, > Eddie > > Dr. Edmond L. Freed > PRRT&HS # 156 > Modeling Harrisburg & the C&PD in HO > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:05:13 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] REA Express Car (was:PRR-Talk Digest) They also had different trucks and a different roof. Check Vic Roseman's excellent book on the subject. Reading it showed me what a poor stand-in my kitbashes from TM reefers were (MR Aug 89). But I have been running these stand ins, waiting over a decade for something better. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== BPX29@aol.com wrote: > Mike & gents, > I noticed Andy's reply to an inquiry about the steel REA cars, though not the original question. One difference that comes to mind between the two series of cars is that the earlier cars had welded sides and the later ones were riveted. Another very temporary difference was that the early cars carried, for a matter of months only it seems, that silver/green paint scheme which you sometimes see on models of these cars. > Regards, > Barry Peltier -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:19:28 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] REA Express Car (was:PRR-Talk Digest) In a message dated 12/12/01 8:00:28 AM Central Standard Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << Another very temporary difference was that the early cars carried, for a matter of months only it seems, that silver/green paint scheme which you sometimes see on models of these cars. >> The welded cars (Sunshine and future Branchline) were delivered in 1947 in the silver /green and as Barry says, after only a few months were painted in dark green (Tamiya Japan Navy Green or a Hunter Green, depending on the cones and rods in your eyes) WITHOUT HERALD until 1953. The Railway Express Agency herald was added in 1953 and replaced in 1960 with the larger REX logo. Sometime in the early 60's the background color was changed to Chromate Green. If it is still available, Roseman's book on the Railway Express Agency (soft cover) is highly recommended. And if you are modeling East-West, you could throw in a Burlington converted troop kitchen car as well as the New Haven converted troop sleeper car in your headend equipment, though the latter seemed to be more common. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steven Hanlon" Subject: Re: [PRR] greetings and a mount union question Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:43:03 -0200 > Steve, and fellow "narrow minded" listers ... > > The piers in the Juniata in Jacks Narrows are the remains of the truss > bridge that carried the Harbison-Walker gannister quarry tram. this makes since. there is still an engine house atop the mountian. i have found many 'sleepers' decaying in the earth, rough cut timber with no trace of a railhead to be found. the quarry atop the mountian is a fantastic example of dollars at work. the face of the mountian has been carved away and an open pit is all that remains. much more impressive is the mining on the other side of the ridge where entire sections of the mountian are missing and flat walls are exposed for a few hundred feet along the PRR mainline at Mill Creek. while driving from Mount Union to Huntingdon, i caught the local switching the covered hoppers at the mill, something i had never seen in the 3 years i attended Juniata College. thanks vogel, do you have any sources for more info and pictures of this industry? i am hoping to build a layout centered around mount Union and Jack's Narrows. -steve hanlon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 18:50:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR N8 Hi George, Thanks for the info. Yeah, I did see the builders photo that lacks the vertical grab on the side extennsion plate. I had that updated version built in when I laid out the sides. I do though have to cut in those 2 little half moons (for water run off?) into each of those extennsions. I overlooked those when the side were in the first stages of being built. Dang! Speaking of those side curved grabs on this or any PRR Cabin. Exactly what use were they? To me they seem to have no purpose. When getting on and off the car the grab on the body end and the grab on the vertical iron work were the ones used. As for interrior, not sure I will go that far. Although those large windows show off the emptyness inside. I have access to an N8. I will check what lockers it has. I talked to the owner of that N8 Saturday. He has his restored into the Ball Keystone version with antenna. (This is what I plan on doing to my model also if I can get the decals made). I asked him about those antenna he has placed on it. According to his car number and the assignment files on Jerry Britton's site, this particular Cabin did not have antenna attached to it in 1957. The owner said it was built with them though in 1951. They were removed when the interrior was modified in 1953ish? I was thinking of using his car number for my model but decided to do a Pittsburgh Region car instead of his Chesapeake Reg. Oh well, back to the model. I just started the antenna mast job...... Thanks, Gary. Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RichofScot@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:51:34 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PennsyWest] Covered hoppers return to Frankfort Indiana In a message dated 12/10/2001 11:02:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: > Regarding "Frankford:" It is as you say, not findeable on any contemporary > map > that I have. My question is: is there any indication as to the customer > using > these cars? > > Richard Wallis >> > > All: Doing a search using google.com, I found 16 references to Frankford, IN. The most useful being that the Clinton County Fair grounds are located in Frankford. The only industry mentioned is Aristocrat Recreational vehicles which has since been sold to Boise Cascade. Rich Orr [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Promise to Quit Nicotrol will help http://us.click.yahoo.com/5vN8tD/AqSDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:57:20 -0500 From: prrbill Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Site Has anyone heard anything about this site? There hasn't been an update for a month or so. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 03:23:46 EST Subject: [PRR] NEXT! GIZE, Just got and email back regarding the J1e and I will have a sample in hot little hands to review by the end of January after returning from Cocoa Beach... But better yet your prayers will be answered with the second release ... and Sound already installed that will work from your standard powerpack as well as your DCC system... Guys you are going to wet your pants! But I can say no more! GOOD THINGS COME TO HE WHO WAITS! BRUCE, EMAIL ME! OH, MR. Brock where are you ... ! COCOA BEACH, HERE I COME! Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard Campbell" Subject: [PRR] passenger car list Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 18:22:50 -0500 Can anyone give me the address of the PCL Thanks Neil ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 21:53:52 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] passenger car list PassengerCarList@yahoogroups.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 07:29:21 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] RWET Frankfort IN and problems with unissued Lettering Arrangement Drawing In a message dated 12/13/01 3:43:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: << Message: 2 Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 21:06:42 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: Covered hoppers return to Frankfort Indiana RichofScot@aol.com wrote: > Doing a search using google.com, I found 16 references to Frankford, IN. The > most useful being that the Clinton County Fair grounds are located in > Frankford. The only industry mentioned is Aristocrat Recreational vehicles > which has since been sold to Boise Cascade. And I'm chuckling out loud. That would be Frankfort, Indiana, seat of Clinton County. So more than one source has the spelling wrong. Richard Wallis >> Gize, My first reaction was that it takes real talent to misspell your own town name. However, it happens. I can remember a story from my youth -- which I won't drag you through. I'd bet Google would get a lot more hits on "Frankfort IN". But we're wandering afield here, and I'm as bad as the next guy -- the objective is not to speculate or indulge in inductive reasoning -- it's to use reliable sources to learn more about the Pennsylvania Railroad as it once existed. The "guessing" process generates the kind of fairy tales and fiction that railfans have rightfully been criticized for in the past (and we don't need to go THERE, either). So let's look at the evidence... The facts are that we've got a copy of a drawing that lists the RWET ("return when empty to") for four 100-ton covered hoppers as "Frankford Ind". It's in the form of a PRR Lettering Arrangement Drawing, with most all the characteristics of a Lettering Arrangement Drawing. However, the darn thing as copied was never: 1. Completed, with a drawn date 2. Given a drawing number 3. Given an issue date Therefore, as it stands, it has the weakest possible claim to being a company document. It only WOULD become a standard drawing if it had been inspected, OK'd and dated complete, then issued. We have no idea if this happened, and if the goof might have been caught before issuance. Unless someone can come up with a photo of one of these ACF cylindricals with a legible "RWET" inscription, then we've merely uncovered one more mystery in Pennsy lore. It's a bad sign that, with all the talent on the lists I'm addressing, nobody knows of an industry in Frankfort that loaded those cars. We know enough to put "Frankfort/Frankford" on a list -- but apparently that's all we know. Meantime let's move forward. Please -- pick up your photos and slides and help me add other valid RWET points to our covered hopper listing. On later covered hoppers like the H42, H44, H45, you'll find the RWET lettering in a yellow rectangle, probably to the right of the reporting marks on a PK car. I'll appreciate the help, and just maybe I can survive the rivet counters when the article appears. I'll be circulating an updated version of the RWET table soon. Thanks, Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Promise to Quit Nicotrol will help http://us.click.yahoo.com/5vN8tD/AqSDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 07:29:21 EST Subject: [PRR] RWET Frankfort IN and problems with unissued Lettering In a message dated 12/13/01 3:43:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com writes: << Message: 2 Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 21:06:42 -0600 From: Richard Wallis Subject: Re: Covered hoppers return to Frankfort Indiana RichofScot@aol.com wrote: > Doing a search using google.com, I found 16 references to Frankford, IN. The > most useful being that the Clinton County Fair grounds are located in > Frankford. The only industry mentioned is Aristocrat Recreational vehicles > which has since been sold to Boise Cascade. And I'm chuckling out loud. That would be Frankfort, Indiana, seat of Clinton County. So more than one source has the spelling wrong. Richard Wallis >> Gize, My first reaction was that it takes real talent to misspell your own town name. However, it happens. I can remember a story from my youth -- which I won't drag you through. I'd bet Google would get a lot more hits on "Frankfort IN". But we're wandering afield here, and I'm as bad as the next guy -- the objective is not to speculate or indulge in inductive reasoning -- it's to use reliable sources to learn more about the Pennsylvania Railroad as it once existed. The "guessing" process generates the kind of fairy tales and fiction that railfans have rightfully been criticized for in the past (and we don't need to go THERE, either). So let's look at the evidence... The facts are that we've got a copy of a drawing that lists the RWET ("return when empty to") for four 100-ton covered hoppers as "Frankford Ind". It's in the form of a PRR Lettering Arrangement Drawing, with most all the characteristics of a Lettering Arrangement Drawing. However, the darn thing as copied was never: 1. Completed, with a drawn date 2. Given a drawing number 3. Given an issue date Therefore, as it stands, it has the weakest possible claim to being a company document. It only WOULD become a standard drawing if it had been inspected, OK'd and dated complete, then issued. We have no idea if this happened, and if the goof might have been caught before issuance. Unless someone can come up with a photo of one of these ACF cylindricals with a legible "RWET" inscription, then we've merely uncovered one more mystery in Pennsy lore. It's a bad sign that, with all the talent on the lists I'm addressing, nobody knows of an industry in Frankfort that loaded those cars. We know enough to put "Frankfort/Frankford" on a list -- but apparently that's all we know. Meantime let's move forward. Please -- pick up your photos and slides and help me add other valid RWET points to our covered hopper listing. On later covered hoppers like the H42, H44, H45, you'll find the RWET lettering in a yellow rectangle, probably to the right of the reporting marks on a PK car. I'll appreciate the help, and just maybe I can survive the rivet counters when the article appears. I'll be circulating an updated version of the RWET table soon. Thanks, Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 07:29:27 EST Subject: [PRR] REX, ACF, GATC In a message dated 12/13/01 1:12:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << REA had two series of very similar cars. There are subtle, but very noticeable differences between them. The first series was built in 1948(?). It is the car that Branchline will produce. The second series was built in 1957 (again ?). This is the Walthers car. So we are to be blessed (eventually) with both. >> I'm expecting Branchline's car to be a 1947-built ACF car. According to a Car Cyc of the period, ACF delivered these in fancy REA colors, but also to GN and ATSF in their own color schemes, for leasing back to REA. The REX cars with fancy stripes soon went back to normal REA green, and went through changes in the lettering applied every few years, so actually these can run in a variety of paint schemes -- I'll be disappointed if Branchline doesn't issue the cars in at least 6 of these different lettering schemes. I'm told these 1947 cars helped retire sizeable fleets of wood-sheathed cars that hung on through WWII, but I can't prove this. Sounds like the second series (Walthers) is the General American car. I can find some of these GATC cars built in 1958. Bob Zoeller mentions the REX Chromate Green, which Vic Roseman says was adopted in 1962. Sadly, I saw large numbers of REX cars in this bright green being scrapped out when I passed through Dennison OH -- but I'd have to dig deep in my slides to know what year (late 70's?) this was. Personally, I would have celebrated if either REA reefer model had shown up. To get both in the same year is really great -- the pix of PRR passenger and all-express trains in my late 60's era show headends founded on these, plus X29's, and B60's. My pix exclude the R50b which would also be part of the mix for you earlier modelers. It's a great time to be a modeler! Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Formerly operating the Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 08:43:20 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] REX, ACF, GATC In a message dated 12/14/01 6:38:24 AM Central Standard Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << According to a Car Cyc of the period, ACF delivered these in fancy REA colors, but also to GN and ATSF in their own color schemes, for leasing back to REA. >> ACL tacked 50 cars on to the 1947 order, so are the same car. However, the Roseman book (and the statistics) indicate the ATSF cars were rebuilds in 1953 and the GN cars were built in 1952, also apparently to different specs. Too bad, 'cuz the GN car seemed to make it onto Pennsy rails fairly often, probably more in later years when it was used rather extensively for mail storage from coast to coast. I think the GN car has been available in brass (I am not referring to the ubiquitous wood car) and may be not too difficult to find at a reasonable price. And yes, Rick, it is a great time to be a modeler. Unfortunately, synching the timing of my purchases with the timing of the deliveries is a problem, but a good one. If all the items I have on backorder arrive at the same time I will either have to hide the bills or wind up in divorce court. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 15:35:24 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Coffee Shop Tavern Car Class From: Jerry Britton I'm looking to build train #72, The Juniata, per 1954. The "Makeup of Trains" for that year shows a "Coffee Shop Tavern" in the consist. Anyone know what class this might have referred to? The same "Makeup of Trains" book also shows a "Tavern Lounge Car" for train #3, The Penn Texas. Might this be an identical car? A brief look at Rob's equipment list provides the following possible suspects for a lineup: D78ED Coffee Shop Car PC70ER Caf-Lounge-Parlor Neither reference mentions the inclusion of coach seats, which eliminates a few other classes. Any ideas? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:30:41 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Coffee Shop Tavern Car Class Jerry, The PLC85ER is the Coffee Shop for the Congo. Note their were only two. The Penn Texas ran the "Recreation Car" listed as PLC85 Special Lounge-AC&F (Lot# 3313). Originally built for the Jeffeersonian, they were reassigned to the PT when the Jeff was merged into the Spirit of StL. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > I'm looking to build train #72, The Juniata, per 1954. The "Makeup of > Trains" for that year shows a "Coffee Shop Tavern" in the consist. Anyone > know what class this might have referred to? > > The same "Makeup of Trains" book also shows a "Tavern Lounge Car" for train > #3, The Penn Texas. Might this be an identical car? > > A brief look at Rob's equipment list provides the following possible > suspects for a lineup: > > D78ED Coffee Shop Car > PC70ER Caf-Lounge-Parlor > > Neither reference mentions the inclusion of coach seats, which eliminates a > few other classes. > > Any ideas? > ----------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 16:16:12 EST Subject: [PRR] REA corrections In a message dated 12/15/01 1:11:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << ACL tacked 50 cars on to the 1947 order, so are the same car. However, the Roseman book (and the statistics) indicate the ATSF cars were rebuilds in 1953 and the GN cars were built in 1952, also apparently to different specs. Too bad, 'cuz the GN car seemed to make it onto Pennsy rails fairly often, probably more in later years when it was used rather extensively for mail storage from coast to coast. I think the GN car has been available in brass (I am not referring to the ubiquitous wood car) and may be not too difficult to find at a reasonable price. And yes, Rick, it is a great time to be a modeler. Unfortunately, synching the timing of my purchases with the timing of the deliveries is a problem, but a good one. If all the items I have on backorder arrive at the same time I will either have to hide the bills or wind up in divorce court. Bob Zoeller >> Thanks, Bob, for a more accurate reading of the Roseman book. I'll have to return to it. Again, it's great that modelers need to make these distinctions -- it means we have choices. I'm so thankful I won't have to kitbash a fleet of REA cars. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Formerly operating the Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] PRSL Interlocking and Tower book Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 16:13:06 -0500 Hi All, This is the last copy of this book I will be offering. Here it is if you want it. There is about 2 hours left on the auction. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1046266951 Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 16:13:06 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRSL Interlocking and Tower book Hi All, This is the last copy of this book I will be offering. Here it is if you want it. There is about 2 hours left on the auction. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1046266951 Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Unlimited PC-PC calling at Crystal Voice! - Only $1/Mo. Download your free 30 day trial. Click here. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Gb1xVB/GxbDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RichofScot@aol.com Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 21:39:37 EST Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] RWET Frankfort IN Potential industries for assigned Cov Hoppers The following is a list of industries located in Frankfort, Indiana. This is from the official website of the town. There are a number of potential customers for dedicated covered hoippers. Yes, I know this gives no definitive answer, but Rick asked about potential customers. A CT1000 W should help narrow this list. Rich Orr Archer Daniels Midland Company Avecia Beard Industries Inc. Coomer and Sons Sawmill Custom Building Products Federal Mogul Corporation Frito-Lay Inc. General Seating of America Glovers Ice Cream Indiana Brass Irving Materials Inc. Jefferson Smurfit Co. Lake Erie Screw Inc. Mallory Controls Matthews Wire and Wood National Cigar Corp. Peets Feed Inc. Piemonte Foods of Indiana Inc. Precision Truss Systems Inc. Premier Swine Purina Mills Red Barn Industries Shoup Processing Plant Sonoco/Crellin Inc. Sun Chemical Corp. The Forest Products Group Inc. (Indiana Div) The Frankfort Times Inc. The Kay Company Inc. UNR Rohn Vicksmetal/Armco Associates Zachary Confections ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Pv4pGD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: Derrick J Brashear From: Derrick J Brashear Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 21:56:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR-FAX] RWET Frankfort IN Potential industries for assigned Cov Hoppers On Sun, 16 Dec 2001 RichofScot@aol.com wrote: > definitive answer, but Rick asked about potential customers. A CT1000 W > should help narrow this list. 1945 shows Sinclair Refining and a Garrison Oil Co as well as W Lipp and Son - Coal, Shell Petroleum, Indian Refining, Clinton County Farm Bureau, Hoosier Coal and Material, Ogle Bros Coal, and Kramer Bros (?) -D ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Need new boots for winter? Looking for a perfect gift for your shoe loving friends? Zappos.com is the perfect fit for all your shoe needs! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ltdUpD/QrSDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 21:56:02 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Re: [PRR-FAX] RWET Frankfort IN On Sun, 16 Dec 2001 RichofScot@aol.com wrote: > definitive answer, but Rick asked about potential customers. A CT1000 W > should help narrow this list. 1945 shows Sinclair Refining and a Garrison Oil Co as well as W Lipp and Son - Coal, Shell Petroleum, Indian Refining, Clinton County Farm Bureau, Hoosier Coal and Material, Ogle Bros Coal, and Kramer Bros (?) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Lubricator Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 07:01:08 -0500 Hi All, I found a brass lubricator in my parts box that I bought at some train show somewhere. I realized that while (I am pretty sure) it is O Scale, it is prefect for S Scale. It came on a tree with the lubricator arm. Does anyone know where I can get more? I seem to remember an O Scale dealer in the South Jersey area named Fran that it might have come from. Anyway, here is the lubricator on the M-1a in Strasburg. http://users.snip.net/~billlane/lubricator.jpg Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 07:41:53 -0500 Subject: [PRR] 12/15 Op session a great success Listers and crew members, On Saturday 12/15/2001 I had one of the best times in my life. A group of old and new friends got together to help me realize a dream I've had since 1991 when I built my new house. Over the past few months I have had the support and guidance from members of the op-sig, the car-card group and the Digitrax groups to help me prepare for this op session. I have tried to keep everyone informed as to the progress up to Saturday. >From my perspective, here is how it went. God tried to throw one more monkey wrench into the works by creating a big accident on Interstate 81 on the West side of the Susquehanna River where most of the crew members would have ot travel through to get to my home. By 1:00PM almost everyone had made it except my DISPATCHER, Steve Mallery. The session was slated to start by 1:30PM but we still had some time. We had the operating rules, track schematics, and guidelines for the session in a handout that was given to the crew members to look over before the session. Steve arrived about 1:20Pm and we still had one more member that needed to show up. He made it shortly after 1:30 thanks to the traffic jam and Steve started the briefing on what was to happen. Everyone got their throttles, radios and waited for the first crew assignments after a yard master volunteered for the job. I chose to float and help out where ever I was needed in case of trouble. Prior to the session I had Steve come over and we pre-staged the trains in the staging yards, wrote down the engine numbers and the number of cars in the trains. We also placed signs at crucial locations on the layout for traffic movement purposes like Wall, Burn, and Q. These locations would be where the crews would stop when directed by the dispatcher. Tracks were also identified by number on the maps so when a crew was directed to take "highline track 2" they would know how the switch would be thrown. This actually worked very well, even though Steve had somehow reversed his track numbers on his schematic, until he sent a long coal train into Lebanon instead of toward the PRR and Conewago yard. The crew requesting permission to back onto the main alerted him to his mistake. prior to that point, meets in those areas simply took place on the opposite tracks they were supposed to without a problem. One glitch took place when the Digitrax system ran out of slots. I had never expanded it from the defaults and there were never as many trains running on the layout until this time. A few frantic minutes on my part with my DCS100 manual provided me with the information to change CV44 and the session was off and running again. We ran a total of 17 scheduled trains, one High-wide movement and at least 8 light engine movements to return and service power at the engine facility at Lickdale. Along with the scheduled trains we also ran three ore mine runs and Lee Rainey took the Lebanon local that took the entire afternoon to complete. He actually had to leave before the run was finished but Jeff Warner filled in and supplied the necessary manpower to finish the run and help out the Lebanon Yard crew, Gale Smith. James Mattern was the Yard Master and he performed his job professionally and with ease, keeping things flowing through the actual heart of the railroad. The session finally ended at around 5:00PM. It appeared that everyone had a great time. We had no major incidents of track or equipment failure. My less-than-perfect trackwork surprised even me. The car cards worked great and even though I have a few narrow spots in the aisles there was no real people-flow problems. After the session, members and visitors decended on the local pizza shop for critique and supper. Paul Mallery seemed to enjoy himself as an observer and his conversations with crew members waiting for assignments were very entertaining. Lessons learned: 1. Do not use momentum on yard locos or local engines unless the person is used to it. I like to set my speed on my locomotive and use only the direction button to do switching. I feel it provides me with a true sense of realism and takes a little skill to spot your cars. Most people do not use this feature and have a hard time with it. From now on, none of my locals will have their decders set up with momentum but the road trains will. (Wimps) 2. Track schematics will be placed on the facia or above the backdrop with track labels and locations clearly marked. 3. The dispatcher will always recheck where he has placed the location points against his reference sheet. That way he will understand how a train got to Coal before going through Brook instead of the other way around 4. God (me) always has the power to make last-minute changes when the dispatcher takes all of a scheduled train's cars and places them on a through freight in staging. 5. Waybills will be double-checked to make sure there are cars to go to all local switching areas. (we forgot waybills for trains to Colebrook industries) 6. Always give Knothead the mine switching job. He knows the job well and he can't get lost in a limited space or exceed the speed liit using a Shay. 7. Get mailing addresses from the crew members that didn't get a chance to sample my wife's Shoo-Fly pie. We still have a whole pie left and it will cost me dearly since I insisted she make one for the session. 8 Better instructions will be given as to the waybills and car cards. Only GOD will remove waybills from the car cards AFTER the session. Crew members should only place them in the appropriate boxes facing away from the aisle. They will be turned around before the next session and old waybills will be pulled to "empty" the car. The cooperation of all of the attendees and their goal to have fun made the first of many op sessions a great success. I wish to thank everyone that attended and helped me with their emails in the preperation for this session. I will now start the planning for the next session on January 19th, 2002 Regards and Merry Christmas, Nick Kulp http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 12:28:10 -0600 Subject: [PRR] PRR: I-1 From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" In the "I THOUGHT I HAD IT FIGURED OUT" department: I received a fair number of BW prints of I-1 engines Saturday. I organized them by engine number and confirmed what must be the first rule of railroad photography: Never take photos of both sides of the same engine. So I examined the photos. And lo and behold, here is a photo of #1634 taken at East Altoona, Pa, in August 1939. #1634 is a two compressor variety, but there is NO air reservoir under the cab. So much for the Standard Railroad of the World. Also (here is the advantage of large numbers of photos), none of the low numbered engines, which include 352, 790, and several in the 1000 series, have a feedwater heater. This is obvious even if you are looking at the right side of the engine because there is an injector pipe in front of the cab. I knew some engines lacked a FWH, but I had no idea there was any pattern to the lack. Actually with the combination of compressors, generator vs. headlight position, sand pipe locations, feedwater heaters,and type of tender, there is almost an infinite variety of these beasts. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR: I-1 Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 13:13:14 -0600 Did not the only the Baldwin built I-1s have feed water heaters? -----Original Message----- From: Donald E. Harper, Jr [mailto:harperd@tamug.tamu.edu] Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 12:28 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] PRR: I-1 In the "I THOUGHT I HAD IT FIGURED OUT" department: I received a fair number of BW prints of I-1 engines Saturday. I organized them by engine number and confirmed what must be the first rule of railroad photography: Never take photos of both sides of the same engine. So I examined the photos. And lo and behold, here is a photo of #1634 taken at East Altoona, Pa, in August 1939. #1634 is a two compressor variety, but there is NO air reservoir under the cab. So much for the Standard Railroad of the World. Also (here is the advantage of large numbers of photos), none of the low numbered engines, which include 352, 790, and several in the 1000 series, have a feedwater heater. This is obvious even if you are looking at the right side of the engine because there is an injector pipe in front of the cab. I knew some engines lacked a FWH, but I had no idea there was any pattern to the lack. Actually with the combination of compressors, generator vs. headlight position, sand pipe locations, feedwater heaters,and type of tender, there is almost an infinite variety of these beasts. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: I-1 Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:35:09 -0500 Marvin: You are absolutely right, only the Baldwins (475) had Worthington BL's, the Altoona's (122) did not. The Baldwins were all numbered consecutively in the mid-4000's, while those built at Altoona were scattered numerically, so anything not numbered in the 4000's should not have a FWH. By the way, there are TWO different types of FWH's that appear in photos - one type has all components on the same plane at the bottom, while the second has the rear part lower than the front. Does anyone know what the deal is here. Did Worthington change the shape of the "BL'" type FWH? Gregg Mahlkov (sitting on a Minitrix I1 while deciding what to do about a FWH) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "'Donald E. Harper, Jr'" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 2:13 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR: I-1 > Did not the only the Baldwin built I-1s have feed water heaters? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Donald E. Harper, Jr [mailto:harperd@tamug.tamu.edu] > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 12:28 PM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] PRR: I-1 > > > In the "I THOUGHT I HAD IT FIGURED OUT" department: > > I received a fair number of BW prints of I-1 engines Saturday. I organized > them by engine number and confirmed what must be the first rule of railroad > photography: Never take photos of both sides of the same engine. > > So I examined the photos. And lo and behold, here is a photo of #1634 taken > at East Altoona, Pa, in August 1939. #1634 is a two compressor variety, but > there is NO air reservoir under the cab. So much for the Standard Railroad > of the World. > > Also (here is the advantage of large numbers of photos), none of the low > numbered engines, which include 352, 790, and several in the 1000 series, > have a feedwater heater. This is obvious even if you are looking at the > right side of the engine because there is an injector pipe in front of the > cab. I knew some engines lacked a FWH, but I had no idea there was any > pattern to the lack. > > Actually with the combination of compressors, generator vs. headlight > position, sand pipe locations, feedwater heaters,and type of tender, there > is almost an infinite variety of these beasts. > > > > Don Harper > Texas A&M Marine Lab > 5007 Avenue U > Galveston, TX 77551 > 409/740-4540 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:26:06 -0500 Subject: [PRR] The Juniata - Questions on Head End Equipment From: Jerry Britton My first train modeled will be The Juniata, and I have a couple of questions. The consist, per the "Makeup of Trains" book for the era, is as follows: The Juniata Express.....Berwick to Boston (B60) (To NH100 at New York). Baggage.....Pittsburgh to Stamford (B60) (PRR-NH-B&M) (DH) (To NH100 at New York). Baggage.....Pittsburgh to Stamford (B60) (PRR-NH-B&M) (DH) (To NH100 at New York). Baggage.....Pittsburgh to Stamford (B60) (PRR-NH-B&M) (DH) (To NH100 at New York). Express.....Chicago to Hartford (B60) (To NH100 at New York). Express.....Chicago to Boston (B60) (To NH100 at New York). Express.....St. Louis to Boston (B60) (Mess.) (To NH100 at New York). Express.....Cincinnati to Boston (B60) (To NH100 at New York). Express.....Pittsburgh to Boston (B60) (Mess.) (To NH100 at New York). Express.....Pittsburgh to Springfield (B60) (To NH100 at New York). Baggage/Mail.....Pittsburgh to New York (BM70 30') Parlor.....Pittsburgh to New York (PL 28-1) Coffee Shop Tavern.....Pittsburgh to New York Coaches.....Pittsburgh to New York (P70GSR) Coaches.....Pittsburgh to New York (P70GSR) Coach.....Harrisburg to New York (P70 Scheme 6) 1) The first three baggage cars are class B60. But note the "(PRR-NH-B&M)" label. Does this mean the cars may be owned by either of the three roads, instead of the PRR, or are the cars perhaps somehow lettered for all three in the letterboard? 2) If those three cars could be owned by the NH or B&M, can anyone direct me to a photo to see how the paint scheme looked? 3) What does the designation "(DH)" indicate? Is it another indication of a messenger on board, which is usually indicated by "(Mess.)" or "(Gold Star)"? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Juniata - Questions on Head End Equipment Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:39:28 -0500 Jerry, The first question that comes to mind to me is why would there be 3 baggage cars daily from Pittsburgh, PA, to Stamford, CT (I assume that is Stamford, CT)??? The only thing I can think of that would generate that kind of traffic would be publications (newspapers or magazines), in which case the DH might signify the printer or publication. You don't suppose there was a "Stamford Daily Herald" that was printed in Pittsburgh?????? Interesting.................. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 3:26 PM Subject: [PRR] The Juniata - Questions on Head End Equipment > My first train modeled will be The Juniata, and I have a couple of > questions. The consist, per the "Makeup of Trains" book for the era, is as > follows: > > The Juniata > Express.....Berwick to Boston (B60) (To NH100 at New York). > Baggage.....Pittsburgh to Stamford (B60) (PRR-NH-B&M) (DH) (To NH100 at New > York). > Baggage.....Pittsburgh to Stamford (B60) (PRR-NH-B&M) (DH) (To NH100 at New > York). > Baggage.....Pittsburgh to Stamford (B60) (PRR-NH-B&M) (DH) (To NH100 at New > York). > Express.....Chicago to Hartford (B60) (To NH100 at New York). > Express.....Chicago to Boston (B60) (To NH100 at New York). > Express.....St. Louis to Boston (B60) (Mess.) (To NH100 at New York). > Express.....Cincinnati to Boston (B60) (To NH100 at New York). > Express.....Pittsburgh to Boston (B60) (Mess.) (To NH100 at New York). > Express.....Pittsburgh to Springfield (B60) (To NH100 at New York). > Baggage/Mail.....Pittsburgh to New York (BM70 30') > Parlor.....Pittsburgh to New York (PL 28-1) > Coffee Shop Tavern.....Pittsburgh to New York > Coaches.....Pittsburgh to New York (P70GSR) > Coaches.....Pittsburgh to New York (P70GSR) > Coach.....Harrisburg to New York (P70 Scheme 6) > > > 1) The first three baggage cars are class B60. But note the "(PRR-NH-B&M)" > label. Does this mean the cars may be owned by either of the three roads, > instead of the PRR, or are the cars perhaps somehow lettered for all three > in the letterboard? > > 2) If those three cars could be owned by the NH or B&M, can anyone direct me > to a photo to see how the paint scheme looked? > > 3) What does the designation "(DH)" indicate? Is it another indication of a > messenger on board, which is usually indicated by "(Mess.)" or "(Gold > Star)"? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Juniata - Questions on Head End Equipment Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:02:25 -0600 DH could be Dead Head for returning mail or baggage cars from other trains that were dropped in Pittsburgh and being returned to the origination point in one move. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" To: "Jerry Britton" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 3:39 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] The Juniata - Questions on Head End Equipment > Jerry, > > The first question that comes to mind to me is why would there be 3 baggage > cars daily from Pittsburgh, PA, to Stamford, CT (I assume that is Stamford, > CT)??? The only thing I can think of that would generate that kind of > traffic would be publications (newspapers or magazines), in which case the > DH might signify the printer or publication. You don't suppose there was a > "Stamford Daily Herald" that was printed in Pittsburgh?????? > > Interesting.................. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jerry Britton" > To: "PRR-Talk LIST" > Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 3:26 PM > Subject: [PRR] The Juniata - Questions on Head End Equipment > > > > My first train modeled will be The Juniata, and I have a couple of > > questions. The consist, per the "Makeup of Trains" book for the era, is as > > follows: > > > > The Juniata > > Express.....Berwick to Boston (B60) (To NH100 at New York). > > Baggage.....Pittsburgh to Stamford (B60) (PRR-NH-B&M) (DH) (To NH100 at > New > > York). > > Baggage.....Pittsburgh to Stamford (B60) (PRR-NH-B&M) (DH) (To NH100 at > New > > York). > > Baggage.....Pittsburgh to Stamford (B60) (PRR-NH-B&M) (DH) (To NH100 at > New > > York). > > Express.....Chicago to Hartford (B60) (To NH100 at New York). > > Express.....Chicago to Boston (B60) (To NH100 at New York). > > Express.....St. Louis to Boston (B60) (Mess.) (To NH100 at New York). > > Express.....Cincinnati to Boston (B60) (To NH100 at New York). > > Express.....Pittsburgh to Boston (B60) (Mess.) (To NH100 at New York). > > Express.....Pittsburgh to Springfield (B60) (To NH100 at New York). > > Baggage/Mail.....Pittsburgh to New York (BM70 30') > > Parlor.....Pittsburgh to New York (PL 28-1) > > Coffee Shop Tavern.....Pittsburgh to New York > > Coaches.....Pittsburgh to New York (P70GSR) > > Coaches.....Pittsburgh to New York (P70GSR) > > Coach.....Harrisburg to New York (P70 Scheme 6) > > > > > > 1) The first three baggage cars are class B60. But note the "(PRR-NH-B&M)" > > label. Does this mean the cars may be owned by either of the three roads, > > instead of the PRR, or are the cars perhaps somehow lettered for all three > > in the letterboard? > > > > 2) If those three cars could be owned by the NH or B&M, can anyone direct > me > > to a photo to see how the paint scheme looked? > > > > 3) What does the designation "(DH)" indicate? Is it another indication of > a > > messenger on board, which is usually indicated by "(Mess.)" or "(Gold > > Star)"? > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > For brass collectors... > > http://www.brasstrains.net > > Free serving of railroad web sites... > > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:11:11 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] The Juniata - Questions on Head End Equipment In a message dated 12/17/01 4:10:44 PM Central Standard Time, nbell@repco.com writes: << DH could be Dead Head >> Substitute "is" for "could be". A standard (I hesitate to use that term on the PRR:-)) term in timetables. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:12:54 EST Subject: [PRR] The Juniata - Questions on Head End Equipment In a message dated 12/17/01 8:11:11 PM Central Standard Time, I wrote : << Substitute "is" for "could be". A standard (I hesitate to use that term on the PRR:-)) term in timetables. >> I should have said in "consist books", not "timetables". Bob Zoellr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: I-1 Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 23:08:10 -0600 I-1 fans-- Don, what is even more strange about 1634 is that there is no air tank at all on the right side. I am looking at the photo in the June 1983 Keystone on p. 12 dated 1942. Oops--on the previous page, 1530, also with two compressors, also has no right side tank. The Baldwin engines were numbered 4225 to 4699, and when built all were equipped with the Worthington type B feedwater heater. Based on photos I have seen, sometime in the 1930's the feedwater heaters began to be updated to the type BL. (I think I have that right. I remember reading that somewhere, also, but I sure can't find it tonight.) Gregg--It depends on what year you are modeling: earlier years use the B, later years use the BL. The Altoona built engines actually totaled 123. 790 was the prototype, then 122 more were produced. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 06:17:14 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] The Juniata - Questions on Head End Equipment From: Jerry Britton On 12/17/01 5:02 PM, Norm Bell at (nbell@repco.com) wrote: > DH could be Dead Head for returning mail or baggage cars from other trains > that were dropped in Pittsburgh and being returned to the origination point > in one move. Two of you suggested the same thing, and the more I look into it, the more plausible it is becoming. The Juniata is carrying three such cars east to Stamford. In checking the westbound consists from Stamford, I have found two of the three cars heading west, in two different trains. One is specifically labeled "New Yorker", suggesting the newspaper. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:25:45 -0500 Subject: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives From: Jerry Britton A few days ago Greg Martin alluded to a new company that will be offering a line of steam locomotives in plastic, with the details of brass. That new company is Broadway Limited Imports. Though the name rings of PRR, their initial offering will be a highly detailed 'BLI' NYC J1e 4-6-4 locomotive -- from the factory FULLY EQUIPPED with an integral, patented sound system and DCC decoder, designed by "QSI". This unit is due in June 2002. Out of the box, the models will operate either from a traditional power supply or any NMRA standard DCC controller. In either case, the robust chuffing, whistle, bell and other sounds can be controlled anywhere on the layout. And all of this for a SUGGESTED retail price of $279.99. Can you imagine the excitement when they announce their first PRR product? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:56:30 -0500 Ho Hum a NYC J now if we can get a PRR J that would be exciting!! Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:07:30 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives From: Jerry Britton On 12/18/01 9:56 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > Ho Hum a NYC J now if we can get a PRR J that would be exciting!! > I haven't received any "inside info" as a dealer, but the name of the company (Broadway Limited Imports) certainly suggests something, doesn't it? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRR5499@att.net Subject: RE: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 15:11:48 +0000 We already have the "J"s all you have to do is win the lotto..:{ E. Case > > Ho Hum a NYC J now if we can get a PRR J that would be exciting!! > > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:32:50 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: I-1 fans From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" I set up a data base on the I-1 photos last night. Some stats from 98 photos: engines trailing 4 axle tenders - 74; 6 axle - 4; 8 axle - 6; can't tell - others 4 engines retained classification lights on the pilot beam as late as 1954; most of that era were on the smokebox Most engines (83) had the sand lines running to wheels 1 and 3, but 9 had them to 1 and 5, 4 to 1, 3 and 5, and 1 to 1 and 4. About half had mufflers 15 had BL style feedwater heaters and 9 had B type; most of the B style photos were taken in the 1950s. 31 had 2 compressors; dates ranged from 1936 to 1959; 61 had a single compressor; dates ranged from 1935 to 1957. 50 had the headlight mounted on the front of the smokebox and 48 had it on the top. Dates for the front mounted were 1930 to 1956. For the top mounted dates were 1946 to 1959. All this assumes the dates on the photos are correct, which in at least one case I strongly question. In this one case, I have two photos of the same number, one in 1949 and one in 1955, but the characteristics are different, and the "newer" photo shows pilot mounted lights, front mounted headlight and B type feedwater heater, which means the Pennsy went retrograde when the engine was shopped. I doubt this, but......... Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: "Steve Hoxie" >To: "PRR-Talk" >Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: I-1 >Date: Mon, 17 Dec, 2001, 23:08 > > I-1 fans-- > Don, what is even more strange about 1634 is that there is no air tank at > all on the right side. I am looking at the photo in the June 1983 Keystone > on p. 12 dated 1942. Oops--on the previous page, 1530, also with two > compressors, also has no right side tank. > > The Baldwin engines were numbered 4225 to 4699, and when built all were > equipped with the Worthington type B feedwater heater. Based on photos I > have seen, sometime in the 1930's the feedwater heaters began to be updated > to the type BL. (I think I have that right. I remember reading that > somewhere, also, but I sure can't find it tonight.) Gregg--It depends on > what year you are modeling: earlier years use the B, later years use the > BL. > > The Altoona built engines actually totaled 123. 790 was the prototype, then > 122 more were produced. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:43:56 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives Jerry/all: QSI has been rumored to be getting into DCC sound for well over a year now. Maybe this will be some actual competition for Soundtraxx and drive down the price of sound decoders. For those of you who never heard of QSI, they were the original company making sound units for MTH (before MTH started doing their own a little over a year ago). The MTH sound was VERY good and I look forward to seeing more from QSI (although not in NYC equipment ). Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 15:57:40 +0000 Jerry and the List: My prediction will be that this new company will produce PRR engines that have historically sold well in the brass market, regardless of the recent higher prices. I will predict that the PRR engines to come out in plastic are: 1. K-4 2. M-1 3. J-1 4. T-1 I would think that there would be "sub runs" within each model that would cover varieties of engines and classes, etc. Of course, I am merely speculating on the above. But if I were starting a new company, I would go after a PRR model that is a sure seller but whose set up costs are low relative to the other PRR models planned. Hence, the K-4 or the M-1 maybe the first one produced. If these sell like hot cakes, then that would be a good sign for them to tool up on a more challenging and or more expensive engine such as the J-1,T-1, or even a GG-1. But then.....I could be wrong! :P Ted Andrews >From: Jerry Britton >To: PRR-Talk LIST >Subject: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives >Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:25:45 -0500 > >A few days ago Greg Martin alluded to a new company that will be offering a >line of steam locomotives in plastic, with the details of brass. > >That new company is Broadway Limited Imports. Though the name rings of PRR, >their initial offering will be a highly detailed 'BLI' NYC J1e 4-6-4 >locomotive -- from the factory FULLY EQUIPPED with an integral, patented >sound system and DCC decoder, designed by "QSI". This unit is due in June >2002. > >Out of the box, the models will operate either from a traditional power >supply or any NMRA standard DCC controller. In either case, the robust >chuffing, whistle, bell and other sounds can be controlled anywhere on the >layout. > >And all of this for a SUGGESTED retail price of $279.99. > >Can you imagine the excitement when they announce their first PRR product? >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:22:37 -0500 I am hoping for either the M-1a or the J-1.(or even a I-1) The only really good brass models of the M-1a are found in the high end spectrum, besides the Sunset Sam built one. Bachmann is rumored to be redoing their K-4 with separate details. I wonder if that will play in role in determining what Pennsy engine might be built. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:36:22 -0600 I wouldn't think that a K4 would be the best choice for anyone else. A remotoring and detail kit kit for the Bachman could be a seller. My thoughts tend toward the smaller engines at this point. Possibly a series of H's and a B6sb. I would also like to see MP54's and a B1. E44's would be nice also. I don't think an A5s could have enough weight to be practical. That's my two cents. Norm bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Lauterbach" To: "prr-talk" Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 10:22 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives > I am hoping for either the M-1a or the J-1.(or even a I-1) The only really > good brass models of the M-1a are found in the high end spectrum, besides > the Sunset Sam built one. Bachmann is rumored to be redoing their K-4 with > separate details. I wonder if that will play in role in determining what > Pennsy engine might be built. > Eric > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:49:25 +0000 Eris and the List: Good point regarding the Bachmann Spectrum K-4. Bachmann first produced this engine back in 1989. While it was a step in right direction back then, the current body shell of the Bachmann K-4 pales in comparison to the P2K and new Rivarossi Alleghany engines. Bachmann did come out with a "re-tooled" post-war K-4 a few years ago. However, only the drive and the mechanism was re-tooled, the body shell stayed essentially the same. Alot has happened in the past few years as far as steam locos in plastic are concerned. Bachmann may want to completely re-tool its K-4 to keep up with the competition. In fact, Bachmann is in the process of completely re-doing its N&W J-1 northern, for the ground up; this engine will be release sometime in 2002. This, in turn, may spook Broadway Limited Imports (BLI) away from the K-4 for the time being and wait to see what Bachmann does. This would free up BLI in doing either the M-1 or J-1. (Perhaps this is the reason why Lee English at Bowser decided to table his J-1 project....he may have recieved inside-the-industry information regarding this new company and its desire to produce PRR steam) Ted Andrews >From: "Eric Lauterbach" >Reply-To: ealauterbach@earthlink.net >To: "prr-talk" >Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives >Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:22:37 -0500 > >I am hoping for either the M-1a or the J-1.(or even a I-1) The only really >good brass models of the M-1a are found in the high end spectrum, besides >the Sunset Sam built one. Bachmann is rumored to be redoing their K-4 with >separate details. I wonder if that will play in role in determining what >Pennsy engine might be built. >Eric > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:07:16 -0500 Listers, Wouldn't the J be a good choice because with detail changes it could be a C&O engine and a Santa Fe engine (lines westers could use one of them) Hopefully the lines west modelers won't put water in the oil fill :) Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:30:23 -0600 From: Greg Johnson Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives H? With the basic 2-8-0 mechanism already designed and built, perhaps Bachmann will look at an H class someday. If any of this Pennsy steam in plastic becomes reality, I will have to seriously consider backdating my Allegheny Terminal from 1963 to 1955. Break out the coal docks and water plugs! Regards, Greg Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Lauterbach" To: "prr-talk" Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 10:22 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives > I am hoping for either the M-1a or the J-1.(or even a I-1) The only really > good brass models of the M-1a are found in the high end spectrum, besides > the Sunset Sam built one. Bachmann is rumored to be redoing their K-4 with > separate details. I wonder if that will play in role in determining what > Pennsy engine might be built. > Eric > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:31:55 -0600 From: Greg Johnson Subject: [PRR] New Line of locomotives H? With the basic 2-8-0 mechanism already designed and built, perhaps Bachmann will look at an H class someday. If any of this Pennsy steam in plastic becomes reality, I will have to seriously consider backdating my Allegheny Terminal from 1963 to 1955. Break out the coal docks and water plugs! Regards, Greg Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Lauterbach" To: "prr-talk" Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 10:22 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives > I am hoping for either the M-1a or the J-1.(or even a I-1) The only really > good brass models of the M-1a are found in the high end spectrum, besides > the Sunset Sam built one. Bachmann is rumored to be redoing their K-4 with > separate details. I wonder if that will play in role in determining what > Pennsy engine might be built. > Eric > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:27:20 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives In a message dated 12/18/01 11:18:22 AM Central Standard Time, cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: << Wouldn't the J be a good choice because with detail changes it could be a C&O engine and a Santa Fe engine >> I am not aware of a Sante Fe engine that is close. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:10:10 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives List. What was the 5000 class of Santa Fe 2-10-4 oil burners that they leased in 1956? How close to the J-1 & the C&O T-1 were they? Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PennsyNut2@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:40:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives --part1_43.3a519b9.29512ddf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here I am with my 2 cents worth. Why oh why do we not have some locos from 1900 +. We need class H-5 Juniata built 1898; H-6 Juniata built 1899; H-6b ALCo built 1906; H-6sb Baldwin built 1906 (my personal all-time favorite freight engine); E-2 Juniata built 1901; E-3sd Juniata built 1907/8; and E-5 Juniata built 1910 (my personal all-time favorite passenger engine). How about it guys? Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! --part1_43.3a519b9.29512ddf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here I am with my 2 cents worth.

Why oh why do we not have some locos from 1900 +.

We need class H-5 Juniata built 1898; H-6 Juniata built 1899; H-6b ALCo built 1906; H-6sb Baldwin built 1906 (my personal all-time favorite freight engine); E-2 Juniata built 1901; E-3sd Juniata built 1907/8; and E-5 Juniata built 1910 (my personal all-time favorite passenger engine).

How about it guys?

Morgan Bilbo
Ferroequinologist, PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! --part1_43.3a519b9.29512ddf_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:43:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives Pat, The only thing those locos had in common was they were all 2-10-4's. The similarity stopped there. I am sure the wheel base, driver diameter etc were far to different for a model company to compromise a half decent replica. Keep the ideas of the new Loco coming though. It's fun to watch what everyone is hoping for and me knowing (narrowed down anyway) what the possible candidates are. .....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:47:46 -0500 Pat and list: ATSF 5011-class: wt. 538,000, drivers 74", engine wheelbase 50ft. 2" PRR J1 class: wt. 575,880, drivers 69", engine wheelbase 49 ft. 3" from "Pocket Guide to American Locomotives" by Walter A. Lucas, pub. Simmons-Boardman 1953. Does not sound similar to me! Ten 74 inch drivers, my word thats a big engine! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 6:10 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives > List. > What was the 5000 class of Santa Fe 2-10-4 oil burners that they > leased in 1956? How close to the J-1 & the C&O T-1 were they? > > Pat McKinney > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:48:23 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Baggage Mail Car Summary 1954 From: Jerry Britton I was researching Baggage Mail cars on the roster as of 1954 to see what sub-classes were most common. My source is an original copy of the "Passenger Car Roster" as published by the PRR on October 1, 1954. The information on trucks comes from a reprint roster prepared by Wahsatch Backshop a few years back. (65) BM70ka - 3C-P1, 3D-P2, 3D5P1, 3D5P2, 3D5P3 (56) BM70k - 3C-P1, 3D5P1, 3D5P2, 3D5P3 (46) BM70m - 3C-P1, 3D-P1, 3D-P2, 3D7P2 (15) BM70n - 3D-P1, 3D-P2, 3D7P2 (14) BM70nb - 2E-P5, 2E-P6A (8) BM70l - 3D5P3, 3D5P5 Figured while I compiled the data I might as well share! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 21:51:16 -0500 Nothing against Bowser, but I would rather have a P2k quality steam engine than a kit that takes forever to build and still not match the level of the newer plastic steam. Last email I received from Bowser seem to indicate that the J-1 project is pretty much dead. As for the M-1a available, the Sunset Sam built are going for over $400 unptd last time I checked. The Westside and Sunset Prestige M-1a leave a lot to be desired and the GEM's all seem to have wheel wear. I could see a plastic M-1a rising to the level of the CIL M-1a that is over $1,000. Speculations on new models is always an interesting topic. One interesting note is that affordable plastic Pennsy steam could bring mean more Pennsy modelers. Eric > [Original Message] > From: > To: > Date: 12/18/01 7:12:47 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives > > Well Gize, > > Let's see, Kris just completely rebuilt the Bachmann K-4 with a rebuilt drive and seperate detail, so I wouldn't invest in that at least not for the momment. The M1 is still out there in Sunset or better (I have a Sunset I will let go at the right price...) and the J-1 well would you gambel on this if Bowser has it in th back of his mind to do it? So... What else could there be? I-1? G-5? B-6sb? B-8? Q-2? T-1? What? I guess there is a lot you could do. > > Greg Martin > > > > I am hoping for either the M-1a or the J-1.(or even a I-1) The only really good brass models of the M-1a are found in the high end spectrum, besides the Sunset Sam built one. Bachmann is rumored to be redoing their K-4 with separate details. I wonder if that will play in role in determining what Pennsy engine might be built. > Eric< --- Eric Lauterbach --- ealauterbach@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Discussion Web Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:53:22 -0500 Jerry and PRRT&HS members, I note on the PRRT&HS website that the Discussion Web is to be transferred over to Yahoo. That is a shame, as I read it regularly and occasionally offer my two cents where my experience as a PRR employee can be of value. I note that often the inquiries are from people doing research on the PRR that obviously have found the site using a search engine. These people could no longer access the knowledge of the PRRTH&S members that participate (Chris Baer is a national treasure) as they would be required to join the Yahoo group. When the PRR N Scale group went from egroups to Yahoo (involuntarily) I thought I would sign up for Yahoo, but they were just too damn nosy to suit me, asking so much information it would make identity theft a breeze. So you won't see me on Yahoo.. I realize it's probably none of my business, as I don't belong to the PRRT&HS, living in Florida and many miles from most of ther other members, but since Jerry Britton maintains an excellent website and several discussion groups, I think now may be the time for Jerry and the PRRT&HS web gurus to get together. I am bringing this up here rather than on the PRRT&HS site for the reason cited above, I am not a member of that organization and it's their site. Lemme git behind the roundhouse wall afore y'all start shootin"!!! Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR: I-1 fans Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:21:37 -0600 Standard? Now let's see if I have this straight-- --three types of four axle tenders --two types of six axle tenders --one type of eight axle tender --and two types of doghouses on any of the tender types not located in the same position on each tender type...or none at all. --train phone or not --123 engines without fwh, 475 with fwh of two different types --two headlight/generator locations...and two headlight types in either location --either one or two air compressors selected completely at random --on non-fwh engines with two compressors air tank on the right side may or may not be installed. --sand pipes all over the place --and more The possibilities are endless...... The bottom line.....model from photographs with a known date and location. Now just suppose.....after Broadway Limited Imports gets this NYC Hudson stuff out of their system they do (dare I say it?!) an I-1 that runs good, is heavy enough to pull down the wall, looks good and SOUNDS good. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:40:25 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Updates to My Website Hello Fellow Pennsy Fans, I thought I would try something different to the website. I created a section called Enola Arrivals and Departures. I believe I have about 90% of the trains that arrived/departed/passed through Enola on a given day. Please stop by and take a look. http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htm Regards, Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy Williamson Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:40:25 -0600 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Updates to My Website Hello Fellow Pennsy Fans, I thought I would try something different to the website. I created a section called Enola Arrivals and Departures. I believe I have about 90% of the trains that arrived/departed/passed through Enola on a given day. Please stop by and take a look. http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/HOME.htm Regards, Randy ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Win a Capcom Console Game of Your Choice Or Even a Capcom Arcade System. Click Here to Enter. http://us.click.yahoo.com/tmpz8B/exbDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 20:45:05 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Discussion Web --- Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > When the PRR N Scale group went from egroups to > Yahoo (involuntarily) I > thought I would sign up for Yahoo, but they were > just too damn nosy to suit > me, asking so much information it would make > identity theft a breeze. So you > won't see me on Yahoo.. dissimulate: verb to hide or disguise the true nature of; dissemble That is, if the identity of Marshall Llewellyn, age 37, a $37,000 a year bling sling operator, of 137 N. Main St, Ottumwa, IA were to be stolen, who would be harmed? Not Gregg Mahlkov. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 06:30:10 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Discussion Web From: Jerry Britton On 12/18/01 10:53 PM, Gregg Mahlkov at (mahlkov@gtcom.net) wrote: > I note on the PRRT&HS website that the Discussion Web is to be transferred > over to Yahoo. That is a shame, as I read it regularly and occasionally > offer my two cents where my experience as a PRR employee can be of value. I > note that often the inquiries are from people doing research on the PRR that > obviously have found the site using a search engine. These people could no > longer access the knowledge of the PRRTH&S members that participate (Chris > Baer is a national treasure) as they would be required to join the Yahoo > group. > > When the PRR N Scale group went from egroups to Yahoo (involuntarily) I > thought I would sign up for Yahoo, but they were just too damn nosy to suit > me, asking so much information it would make identity theft a breeze. So you > won't see me on Yahoo.. > > I realize it's probably none of my business, as I don't belong to the > PRRT&HS, living in Florida and many miles from most of ther other members, > but since Jerry Britton maintains an excellent website and several > discussion groups, I think now may be the time for Jerry and the PRRT&HS web > gurus to get together. The Society's move from their Web-based "Discussion Web" seems inevitable. They are creating a THIRD PRR MAILING LIST in the process. I have expressed my concern and objection, as has Bill Morlitz, one of the current Society web operators. This decision is being made by the BoD without input at large. It was a shame that personal differences led to the creation of a second list two+ years ago and that there is already a lot of cross-posting. I cannot imaging how messy it will get when stuff gets posted to three lists and some of the answers only go to one or two. People will be responding to stuff that wasn't even posted on a given list to begin with!!! I, for one, would rather see the Society drop the feature. Both PRR-Talk and PRR-FAX go to some length to provide references and/or to note conjecture. I don't see that a Society run list with a very limited number of people responding to queries (lag time) will be an improvement. Finally, Yahoo was eGroups, which was OneList. Every change in ownership has caused headaches for users and list maintainers. In case you haven't noticed, Yahoo's stock is about 20% of what it was a year ago. I bet that within a year, Yahoo will either be gone or purchased by someone else (most likely Microsoft). > > I am bringing this up here rather than on the PRRT&HS site for the reason > cited above, I am not a member of that organization and it's their site. > > Lemme git behind the roundhouse wall afore y'all start shootin"!!! > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 06:35:49 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Baggage Mail Car Summary 1954 From: Jerry Britton On 12/18/01 7:48 PM, Jerry Britton at (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > I was researching Baggage Mail cars on the roster as of 1954 to see what > sub-classes were most common. > > My source is an original copy of the "Passenger Car Roster" as published by > the PRR on October 1, 1954. The information on trucks comes from a reprint > roster prepared by Wahsatch Backshop a few years back. > > (65) BM70ka - 3C-P1, 3D-P2, 3D5P1, 3D5P2, 3D5P3 > (56) BM70k - 3C-P1, 3D5P1, 3D5P2, 3D5P3 > (46) BM70m - 3C-P1, 3D-P1, 3D-P2, 3D7P2 > (15) BM70n - 3D-P1, 3D-P2, 3D7P2 > (14) BM70nb - 2E-P5, 2E-P6A > (8) BM70l - 3D5P3, 3D5P5 > > Figured while I compiled the data I might as well share! Additional interpretation... The BM70k/BM70ka's outnumber the BM70m's by a factor of roughly 3:1. However, in reviewing the New York-west trains in the "Makeup of Trains" book for the New York Division -- published the same year as the "Passenger Car Roster" -- the specification for BM70m's over BM70k/BM70ka's is the opposite...roughly 4:1 in favor of the BM70m. Now, the BM70m has 60' of working mail space; the BM70k/BM70ka only 30'. Is it possible that the "Makeup of Trains" is really spec'ing 60' of mail space when it specs a BM70m, and that perhaps two BM70k/bm70ka's might have been used instead? I only suggest this based on mail storage cars, where a MS60 means "60' of mail storage space" which could be met by a B60 or an R50 (really only 53')...or by two X-29's. I'm just trying to adapt a theory! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:53:16 -0600 Subject: [PRR] new line of locomotives From: Beth Caples If they were to do a K-4. Why not do something that has not been offered in plastic before and would be a best seller to even NON PRR FANS. Why not do the 3768. The fully streamlined loco from the Broadway Limited!!! If MTH can do it in O scale and it be a good seller than why can't someone do it in HO scale. Also a J would be great. Or even one of the turbines. I would like to see a MP-54 and E-44 and last but not least. How about a Baldwin 6 wheel passenger shark! John Caples ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] new line of locomotives Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:09:42 -0500 Group, I agree. I envy the O scalers with MTH They have Q's T1's J's the streamlined K4.... What is with the HO Makers???? I would die for a Q2 that I could afford!!! Sam Vastano >From: Beth Caples >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] new line of locomotives >Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:53:16 -0600 > >If they were to do a K-4. Why not do something that has not been >offered in plastic before and would be a best seller to even NON PRR >FANS. Why not do the 3768. The fully streamlined loco from the Broadway >Limited!!! If MTH can do it in O scale and it be a good seller than why >can't someone do it in HO scale. >Also a J would be great. Or even one of the turbines. I would like to >see a MP-54 and E-44 and last but not least. How about a Baldwin 6 wheel >passenger shark! >John Caples > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. Sam Vastano In the closet SPF!!!! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] P2K E-7 Nose Job Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:16:17 -0500 As a secondary topic on a posting earlier this year, someone mentioned that there had been an article published to correct the errors on the Proto 2000 E-7A nose contours. Can anybody provide me the identity of the article? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:25:10 -0500 > What was the 5000 class of Santa Fe 2-10-4 oil burners that >they >leased in 1956? How close to the J-1 & the C&O T-1 were they? The use by the Pennsy of ATSF 2-10-4's might be the origin of this speculation. I heard the crews really enjoyed running the Santa Fe engines--very roomy cab, easy steamers, very forgiving, yet responsive to controls and settings. As to a Pennsy J, making it into a Santa Fe 2-10-4 requires a different tender, different cab, domes, pilot and platform, driver size, valve gear, trailing truck, cylinders, stack, smokebox, and, for all I know, boiler. Besides that, there's not much else to stop an ambitious kitbasher. Andrew Harmantas, modeling the Pennsy (and the aTSF) from near C&O Milepost FM Zero. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:04:08 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] new line of locomotives John Sez: >If they were to do a K-4. Why not do something that has not been >offered in plastic before and would be a best seller to even NON PRR >FANS. Why not do the 3768. The fully streamlined loco from the Broadway >Limited!!! If MTH can do it in O scale and it be a good seller than why >can't someone do it in HO scale. >Also a J would be great. Or even one of the turbines. I would like to >see a MP-54 and E-44 and last but not least. How about a Baldwin 6 wheel >passenger shark! >John Caples I think John is on the right track here...all of you begging for the PRR specific locos need to rethink what the sales allure is...Name the highest selling model PRR loco of ALL time? The GG-1 of course! Thousands of modelers buy this model, and they don't model PRR and they don't have catenary. What you are looking for is mass appeal. Do you REALLY think this company is catering to NYC steam fans with their first release? I don't think so! So, when y'all come down to earth, I think you can forget about teh following classes: A (too small) B (you're getting a B-26, you want a B-6 and B-8(tank)? dream on!) C (you're kidding right?) D (4-4-0? great static model!) E (Oh for a scale E-6 (and an E-5 and an E3sd for my wire train)...but it ain't happening!) F (HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!!!!!!! Lines WHERE?) G (with Bowser out of stock, we can dream...) H (only an SPF would want this...I need a bunch!) I (ditto!) J (are you kidding? Think of the min radius required! No appeal beyond SPF and C&O fan(s)) L (only an SPF...) M (we all know what great locos these were...nobody else gives a hoot!) N (aw heck, even some SPF's can't tell an N1 from an N2!...although there is USRA potential here) What's left? K-4s (new Botchman is coming, so perhaps you would just need a conversion body and tender for streamlining) Q, S, T, CC, HC As for non steam, if Tyco can sell a "GG-1" with two six wheel trucks, I can wish for a P-5a modified or an R-1!! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] new line of locomotives Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 13:00:13 -0600 Well I am not sure I agree with your I class assesment. It might ( and notice the might) be possible to also do a WM 2-10-0 if the Belpaire portion was a separate casting over a wagon top boiler. there may also be some others like DM&IR or B&LE that could be done with some creative engineering. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." To: Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] new line of locomotives > John Sez: > >If they were to do a K-4. Why not do something that has not been > >offered in plastic before and would be a best seller to even NON PRR > >FANS. Why not do the 3768. The fully streamlined loco from the Broadway > >Limited!!! If MTH can do it in O scale and it be a good seller than why > >can't someone do it in HO scale. > >Also a J would be great. Or even one of the turbines. I would like to > >see a MP-54 and E-44 and last but not least. How about a Baldwin 6 wheel > >passenger shark! > >John Caples > > I think John is on the right track here...all of you begging for the PRR > specific locos need to rethink what the sales allure is...Name the highest > selling model PRR loco of ALL time? The GG-1 of course! Thousands of > modelers buy this model, and they don't model PRR and they don't have > catenary. What you are looking for is mass appeal. Do you REALLY think > this company is catering to NYC steam fans with their first release? I > don't think so! So, when y'all come down to earth, I think you can forget > about teh following classes: > A (too small) > B (you're getting a B-26, you want a B-6 and B-8(tank)? dream on!) > C (you're kidding right?) > D (4-4-0? great static model!) > E (Oh for a scale E-6 (and an E-5 and an E3sd for my wire train)...but it > ain't happening!) > F (HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!!!!!!! Lines WHERE?) > G (with Bowser out of stock, we can dream...) > H (only an SPF would want this...I need a bunch!) > I (ditto!) > J (are you kidding? Think of the min radius required! No appeal beyond > SPF and C&O fan(s)) > L (only an SPF...) > M (we all know what great locos these were...nobody else gives a hoot!) > N (aw heck, even some SPF's can't tell an N1 from an N2!...although there > is USRA potential here) > > What's left? > K-4s (new Botchman is coming, so perhaps you would just need a conversion > body and tender for streamlining) > Q, S, T, CC, HC > > As for non steam, if Tyco can sell a "GG-1" with two six wheel trucks, I > can wish for a P-5a modified or an R-1!! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:37:13 -0500 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] new line of locomotives Next you'll be telling us there's no Santa Claus! Couldn't you have waited until after the New Year to pee on our parade? Vagel Keller > So, when y'all come down to earth, I think you can forget > about teh following classes: > A (too small) > B (you're getting a B-26, you want a B-6 and B-8(tank)? dream on!) > C (you're kidding right?) > D (4-4-0? great static model!) > E (Oh for a scale E-6 (and an E-5 and an E3sd for my wire train)...but it > ain't happening!) > F (HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!!!!!!! Lines WHERE?) > G (with Bowser out of stock, we can dream...) > H (only an SPF would want this...I need a bunch!) > I (ditto!) > J (are you kidding? Think of the min radius required! No appeal beyond > SPF and C&O fan(s)) > L (only an SPF...) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] new line of locomotives Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 20:02:51 -0000 Surely the B6sa is the best model as, neither Bowser or Bachmann do it and being small most modellers could use it. The other alternative is a L1 as the USRA Heavy Mikado was based on it and from what I have read i believe the chassis could be used for both. Patrick Grace ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:12:39 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] new line of locomotives Vagel sez: >Next you'll be telling us there's no Santa Claus! Couldn't you have waited >until after the New Year to pee on our parade? Sorry Virginia, I mean Vagel... ;^)> Yours in anticipation of new PRR STEAM! Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:15:52 -0500 All it takes for a manufacturer to make a profit converting a PRR J into an ATSF is a rubber stamp for ATSF! As long as the PRR version is OK, so what! Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "andrew harmantas" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives > > What was the 5000 class of Santa Fe 2-10-4 oil burners that > >they > >leased in 1956? How close to the J-1 & the C&O T-1 were they? > > The use by the Pennsy of ATSF 2-10-4's might be the origin of this > speculation. I heard the crews really enjoyed running the Santa Fe > engines--very roomy cab, easy steamers, very forgiving, yet responsive to > controls and settings. > > As to a Pennsy J, making it into a Santa Fe 2-10-4 requires a different > tender, different cab, domes, pilot and platform, driver size, valve gear, > trailing truck, cylinders, stack, smokebox, and, for all I know, boiler. > Besides that, there's not much else to stop an ambitious kitbasher. > > Andrew Harmantas, modeling the Pennsy (and the aTSF) from near C&O Milepost > FM Zero. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:25:55 -0600 From: Greg Johnson Subject: Re: [PRR] new line of locomotives I would take either the B6sa or the L. There were even a few other railroads that had second-hand L's including the Interstate Railroad down in West Virginia. Regards, Greg Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "pgrace" To: "PRR Talk" Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 2:02 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] new line of locomotives > Surely the B6sa is the best model as, neither Bowser or Bachmann do it and > being small most modellers could use it. > The other alternative is a L1 as the USRA Heavy Mikado was based on it and > from what I have read i believe the chassis could be used for both. > > Patrick Grace > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Rick Schoch Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:51:28 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] Updates to My Website Randy, I'd just like to commend you on the progress of this site; you've done a very professional job with it. It has a real nice feel to it, very easy to navigate and read, and informative. Thanks for taking the time! Tug ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Need new boots for winter? Looking for a perfect gift for your shoe loving friends? Zappos.com is the perfect fit for all your shoe needs! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ltdUpD/QrSDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] new line of locomotives Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:10:48 -0600 Why B6sa? Why not B6sb? -----Original Message----- From: pgrace [mailto:pgrace@aspects.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 2:03 PM To: PRR Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] new line of locomotives Surely the B6sa is the best model as, neither Bowser or Bachmann do it and being small most modellers could use it. The other alternative is a L1 as the USRA Heavy Mikado was based on it and from what I have read i believe the chassis could be used for both. Patrick Grace ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "WaltP" Subject: [PRR] Diesel Color Transition Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:13:30 -0500 Guys, May be a redundant question, but when did the Pennsy start receiving and when did the change over occur from DGLE (with 5 stripe) to tuscan (with 5 stripe)? The reason for this question is I figure to be painting/repainting my passanger locos in the near (ha ha) future, and as I am (will be) modeling the summer of '52, I figure I am safe painting the covered wagons DGLE. Included in there are BP20, EP20 and AP20. I am crossing my fingers for a pair of BP60a, but that is another story. I vaguely recall that the "cut off" was with the EP22 (from this list). Thanks for keeping/setting me straight. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:13:47 -0500 Although, I would rather see a Pennsy J-1, a Santa Fe 2-10-4 would not be bad. Since Pennsy leased a few of them, we do have an excuse to buy them. Bachmann did have an inaccurate 2-10-4 based on the Santa Fe 2-10-4. It did go around at least 22 inch curves. I think my Westside J-1 even went through 22 inch curves before I went to much larger curves to accommodate a T-1. A S-1 or T-1 could be articulated like the brass Alco models. The impressive streamline looks of both these engines might sell them. As for the S-2, the baby boomers who had Lionel Turbines as kids might like a HO scale turbine. Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:54:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Diesel Color Transition From: Jerry Britton On 12/19/01 4:13 PM, WaltP at (walpru@stargate.net) wrote: > May be a redundant question, but when did the Pennsy start receiving and > when did the change over occur from DGLE (with 5 stripe) to tuscan (with 5 > stripe)? The reason for this question is I figure to be painting/repainting > my passanger locos in the near (ha ha) future, and as I am (will be) > modeling the summer of '52, I figure I am safe painting the covered wagons > DGLE. Included in there are BP20, EP20 and AP20. I am crossing my fingers > for a pair of BP60a, but that is another story. I vaguely recall that the > "cut off" was with the EP22 (from this list). Thanks for keeping/setting me > straight. > Tuscan five introduced in 1952. Tuscan broad introduced in 1954. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 17:05:52 -0500 I vote for the K-4. If not the first, maybe the second. Given the success of the HO Highliner F Units with modular parts, I believe that a K-4 with modular appliances (headlight, generator, pilot, etc.) will give the manufacturer the option of producing several different versions using the same drive and basic boiler and tender. This will permit the manufacturer to offer many different "models" using the same tooling depending on the parts that are used. The K-4 is (IMHO) the most identifyable PRR locomotive. This also opens up potential sales for non-SPF's. The 4-6-2 will also be able to take the 18" radius curves that beginners will have. Again, the early loco should be able to run on virtually ANY layout. Modular body parts also can be used for a L-1 if done properly. A basic shell and tender that can have parts added to replicate more than one locomotive also help a new manufacturer to get established. A second loco could be produced without having to pay for all new tooling. I know that I will purchase multiple K-4's IF the detail is good and the mechanism is decent. By decent, I mean it looks good and it pulls. The problem I have with any current version of the Bachmann K-4 is the pulling ability. I would also hope that the mechanism will allow me to add weight to the locomotive if I want it to pull more. I do NOT want a casting of a relatively lightweight metal to interfere with a space to add lead / cerrobend. I believe that the K-4 would be popular enough that SPF's WILL buy multiple locos and I want that so the manufacturer is VERY successful with the early releases. That will guarantee additional locos will be produced. I also vote for the L-1, M-1, H-6/8/9/10, I-1, B-6, MP-54 and J-1 - not necessarily in that order. My .02 worth...... Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] new line of locomotives Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:16:27 +0000 Bruce and the List: I respectfully disagree. While the GG-1 in a P2K format would sell very well (even to non-PRR models and PRR modelers who do not have a catenary system), specific PRR steam would sell very well in plastic and here is why: 1. The company involved, Broadway Limited Exports, is directly related to Oriental Imports, a long term brass importer. This is a good sign since many brass importers have developed a long term market profiles for many different engines, cars, and the roadnames that they are offered in. They have a very good idea on what will sell and what will not. 2. Certain PRR steam engines have sold very well despite the increasing prices for brass. Probably the most notable classes are the M-1 and the J-1. I think that the M-1 has been offered by Challenger Imports at least 3 times in the 1990's. Despite the price tags in the $1200-$1400, these runs sold out soon after their release. The J-1 was released by Key Imports in the mid-80's and early-90's and they too sold out quickly after there release. Other PRR brass engines that have sold very well despite tipping the price tag of $1000 or more are the I-1 and the T-1. The K-4 has also done well even though Railworks has been the other importer for this engine for a while. On the other hand, the N-1 Santa Fe, imported by Challenger imports, did not sell well a few years ago. Despite exquisite work by Samhongsa, the $1,100 price tag was too much for this low demand engine. I think that many of the large brass model RR stores still have a few of these engines in stock. 3. The PRR engines are not collected by PRR fans exclusively. Many of the people who have purchased these PRR engines like the M-1, J-1, and I-1 collect a wide variety of of RR as well. They want to get a J-1 because it typifies the Pennsy like the J-1e typifies the NYC. 4. The market has changed. It is true that these engines will not fit on an 18 inch or 22 inch radius. But I think that the market that P2k and Broadway Limited Imports is going after is the high quality, high detailed engines for the descriminating modeller. In addition, specific railroads are being offered. A PRR steam engine in high quality plastic is just as probable as a C&O H-6 Allegaenny (Rivarossi)or a Big Boy (Marklin) or a NYC J-1e (Broadway Limited Imports). 5. Lastly, and I think may be the biggest factor of all, is that the constraints of cost for brass models may finally be reached in certain areas such as steam engines and passenger cars. As I have mentioned earlier, some PRR engines have sold well in brass despite the $1,500 price tag. That cannot be said for many other railroads and thier engines. A KCS or Wabash steamer may not sell well at those prices do to the low market potential. That has forced importers to go after railroads and engines that have a more broader appeal. I think that with the introduction of new technology in plastic construction and the chinese labor market, plastic engine construction now rivals and in some cases surpasses, the brass market. The engines are now dripping with detail, run great, and are a mere fraction of the cost of their brass counterparts. In addition, companies like P2K can include a "parts bag" with each engine sold so that every modeler can easily modify his engine the way he wants. The plastic medium makes this very possible. Brass cannot. In short, I believe that we are know facing a new field of model railroading. "Composite" engines, those constructed from a variety of mediums (i.e.: metal, plastic, resin, etc) will now begin to replace the brass engines at a fraction of the cost. I think that brass will still be available but I think that you may start seeing brass importers like Oriental Limited starting subsidiary companies to import high quality plastic. In summary, I think that it is the beginning of some very exciting times in the hobby. Just imagine what will be available within the next 10 years! I do believe that PRR in plastic will be coming out soon and at least some of the major classes will sell very well. Ted Andrews >From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] new line of locomotives >Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:04:08 -0600 > >John Sez: > >If they were to do a K-4. Why not do something that has not been > >offered in plastic before and would be a best seller to even NON PRR > >FANS. Why not do the 3768. The fully streamlined loco from the Broadway > >Limited!!! If MTH can do it in O scale and it be a good seller than why > >can't someone do it in HO scale. > >Also a J would be great. Or even one of the turbines. I would like to > >see a MP-54 and E-44 and last but not least. How about a Baldwin 6 wheel > >passenger shark! > >John Caples > >I think John is on the right track here...all of you begging for the PRR >specific locos need to rethink what the sales allure is...Name the highest >selling model PRR loco of ALL time? The GG-1 of course! Thousands of >modelers buy this model, and they don't model PRR and they don't have >catenary. What you are looking for is mass appeal. Do you REALLY think >this company is catering to NYC steam fans with their first release? I >don't think so! So, when y'all come down to earth, I think you can forget >about teh following classes: >A (too small) >B (you're getting a B-26, you want a B-6 and B-8(tank)? dream on!) >C (you're kidding right?) >D (4-4-0? great static model!) >E (Oh for a scale E-6 (and an E-5 and an E3sd for my wire train)...but it >ain't happening!) >F (HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!!!!!!! Lines WHERE?) >G (with Bowser out of stock, we can dream...) >H (only an SPF would want this...I need a bunch!) >I (ditto!) >J (are you kidding? Think of the min radius required! No appeal beyond >SPF and C&O fan(s)) >L (only an SPF...) >M (we all know what great locos these were...nobody else gives a hoot!) >N (aw heck, even some SPF's can't tell an N1 from an N2!...although there >is USRA potential here) > >What's left? >K-4s (new Botchman is coming, so perhaps you would just need a conversion >body and tender for streamlining) >Q, S, T, CC, HC > >As for non steam, if Tyco can sell a "GG-1" with two six wheel trucks, I >can wish for a P-5a modified or an R-1!! > >Happy Rails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin >Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS Discussion Web Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 17:26:35 -0500 This message is in response to an original post made by Greg Mahlkov to PRR-Talk and a subsequent response from Jerry Britton, both of which were essentially expressing disappointment that the PRRT&HS Web site Discussion Web (DW) was moving to the Yahoo Groups server. Please excuse the length of this post. It was not my intent to discuss the pros and cons of the PRRT&HS decision regarding moving the DW to Yahoo Groups. Unfortunately it was posted to PRR-Talk and in my opinion a response is deemed appropriate. 1. Before responding to Greg's (GM) and Jerry's (JB) specific comments let me explain some of the background as to why this move is being made. In 1999 the PRRT&HS Board of Directors (BoD) directed that the DW (which was then under another name) be moderated and operated by PRR-FAX. At this time the web site was owned and operated by the Philadelphia Chapter and the National Society was essentially just hosted by the chapter. For what were touted as technical reasons the chapter failed to comply with the BoD's desires. The moderation subject was reiterated again during the 2000 BoD meeting, but to no avail. Again during the 2001 BoD meeting the chapter was directed to bring the DW under moderation. Finally in August 2001, newly elected Chapter President Al Giannantonio, worked out a good plan whereby the National Society would take over the ownership and operation of the Web Site and host the chapter (see PRRT&HS e-NEWS August 2001 edition for details). Once again the moderation issue was mandated by the BoD, which could now be implemented under the National's direction. As the DW is currently configured it would take extensive modifications to convert it to a moderation mode. Also giving other people access to the site as it is currently configured, so they could share in the moderation duties, would be problematic. Steve Agostini, the webmaster, and I have discussed this proposal and we both believe it is a proper solution to the dilemma. ==================== 2. GM stated - "I note that often the inquiries are from people doing research on the PRR that obviously have found the site using a search engine. These people could no longer access the knowledge of the PRRTH&S members that participate (Chris Baer is a national treasure) as they would be required to join the Yahoo group." ------------------- AB response - What Gregg says is partially true and partially false. First of all access to the DW will still be through the PRRT&HS Web site. So any one using a search engine to zero in on PRR will still be referred to the Web Site and when they go to the DW it will link them to the Yahoo Groups server which will require some level of membership. Secondly Chris Baer is currently alive and well on Yahoo Groups with PRR-FAX, and I'm sure will continue to respond to the DW questions in its new location. =================== 3. GM stated - "I note on the PRRT&HS website that the Discussion Web is to be transferred over to Yahoo. That is a shame, as I read it regularly and occasionally offer my two cents where my experience as a PRR employee can be of value. ------------------- AB response - We appreciate Gregg's contribution as a former PRR employe and would hope he would continue to contribute. However, Gregg seems to be disenfranchised by Yahoo Groups as he expresses below, and this is too bad. =================== 4. GM stated - "When the PRR N Scale group went from egroups to Yahoo (involuntarily) I thought I would sign up for Yahoo, but they were just too damn nosy to suit me, asking so much information it would make identity theft a breeze. So you won't see me on Yahoo. ------------------- AB response - Well Gregg certainly isn't the only one who feels this way about Yahoo, but there are thousands who have subscribed. This is a personal choice, which I respect. Many of the people who have joined Yahoo Groups have given false answers to the questions in an attempt to foil some of the concerns that Gregg has. I'm not advocating that but it has happened. If someone was going to steal your identity they would need more information than what is provided to Yahoo Groups. =================== 5. GM stated - "I realize it's probably none of my business, as I don't belong to the PRRT&HS, living in Florida and many miles from most of the other members, but since Jerry Britton maintains an excellent website and several discussion groups, I think now may be the time for Jerry and the PRRT&HS web gurus to get together. ------------------- AB response - While on the surface this may seem like a viable alternative to some, after all the BoD did mandate a merger of DW with PRR-FAX in 1999, which would have been a move similar to Gregg's suggested merging with PRR-Talk, there are a couple of problems with this alternative. First of all PRR-Talk is an adjunct of a for profit hobby business - as can be seen in the trailer message (see below), which is a problem for a non-profit corporation. Secondly the chat dialog prevalent on Talk, as well as FAX, is not considered to be a desirable attribute for the DW. I don't think the users of the DW want all of the chat dialog. Thirdly Gregg mentions Jerry's web site. Very little of the material present on Jerry's web site is what can be classified as original material. Most of it has been transcribed from original documents and is therefore prone to some degree of errors. Jerry's web site (along with others) is listed in the Links section of the Society's web site with a disclaimer. However, I would like to point out that material such as Rob Schoenberg's equipment diagrams, which are scans of all original PRR documents, are shown as a direct link from the National's home page. As time goes by it is planned to have more original documents added as direct links from the home page. As the official historical and technical society of the PRR it is our responsibility to ensure that erroneous information is not distributed. There are several PRR type web sites in cyber space with very slick graphics but with erroneous info. Note - this comment is not directed to Jerry's site per se. ===================== 6. JB stated - "The Society's move from their Web-based "Discussion Web" seems inevitable. They are creating a THIRD PRR MAILING LIST in the process. I have expressed my concern and objection, as has Bill Morlitz, one of the current Society web operators. This decision is being made by the BoD without input at large." -------------------- AB response - The creation of a third mailing list is not the intent. Actually there are at least 10 PRR related mailing lists that I know of, 8 of which are served by Yahoo Groups. Jerry and Bill's expressed concerns have been noted. One of their concerns is the potential financial viability of Yahoo Groups. I think Philadelphia Chapter President Al Giannantonio, summed it up by saying "Yahoo is something we shouldn't totally discount; but we shouldn't let it interrupt our progress at this point in time. My suspicions are, if Yahoo bites the dust, there will probably be another entity to pick up the pieces before anyone knows it has happened. We can cross that bridge when we come to it. In the mean time, the site will be up, running, and moderated as the BOD has 'directed.' I think all of our on-line members will use it and benefit from its existence." I will not comment publicly as to my feelings why Jerry and Bill are concerned because it is not factual just speculation. ==================== 7. JB stated - "It was a shame that personal differences led to the creation of a second list two+ years ago and that there is already a lot of cross-posting. I cannot imaging how messy it will get when stuff gets posted to three lists and some of the answers only go to one or two. People will be responding to stuff that wasn't even posted on a given list to begin with!!!" -------------------- AB comment - Yes, I agree it is a shame that personal differences led to the split of the original Talk group. However, from my observations most of the people who originally left were professional railroaders and consultants who had difficulty with the apparent lack of monitoring and correction of the posting of erroneous material. There is some cross posting to a degree which is unfortunate. Accepted list etiquette states that the same message not be posted to multiple lists (cross posting), they should only be posted to the most appropriate list based on the lists charter. But in this day and age who is worried about etiquette. ==================== 8. JB stated - "I, for one, would rather see the Society drop the feature. Both PRR-Talk and PRR-FAX go to some length to provide references and/or to note conjecture. I don't see that a Society run list with a very limited number of people responding to queries (lag time) will be an improvement." -------------------- AB comment - The DW feature was dropped at one time, but was reinstated following the urging of the users. Jerry's comment about only a very limited number of people responding is incorrect. Anybody who wants to respond and answer any question that is posted will be able to do so, just as they do now. What Jerry misinterpreted was a statement I made about inviting knowledgeable PRR employes and respected PRR researchers to periodically visit the site and answer questions which are within their expertise. These are people who today periodically respond on Talk and/or FAX as well as people who do not want to have anything to do the Talk and FAX type chat format. ==================== JB stated - "Finally, Yahoo was eGroups, which was OneList. Every change in ownership has caused headaches for users and list maintainers. In case you haven't noticed, Yahoo's stock is about 20% of what it was a year ago. I bet that within a year, Yahoo will either be gone or purchased by someone else (most likely Microsoft)." -------------------- AB comment - There is some concern about the financial aspects of Yahoo Groups. See Al Giannantonio's comment in number 6 above. I have been a user since the OneList days and have experienced practically no problems. However, I know others that have. ==================== The announcement of this planned change has already appeared on the DW and will appear in the Friday, 21 December 2001 edition of the PRRT&HS e-NEWS. Thanx for your patience. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:11:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] new line of locomotives Ted, Its funny you mentioned Oriental Imports being involved with the new Broadway Limited Import line, I didn't know this. Challenger Imports is also a takeoff from Oriental Imports, did you know that? I guess we can now see the "Imports" connection? Hmmm, you mentioned the KCS too. Wasn't it one of that lines model locos, a PFM Crown 2-10-4 if I recall, that sold for over $30,000 at auction? One just never knows which loco will be respected by collectors. As for the NYC J1e being BLI's first release, I will be looking into one. Modeling/Photographing the "Great Race" out of Chicago was always a goal. Just may have to part with my unpainted, mint Westside/Mizuno NYC J1e and J3a...............NOT! Bring on PRR Steamers! The K4s, M1's or whatever..... ............Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:13:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Diesel Color Transition Walt, 1952 is the change over. Only the EP22 purchased in '52 and those passenger diesels with major shoppings would be in Tuscan. You actually have three options for your diesels. DGLE 5 stripe with unit number in nose Keystone, DGLE 5 stripe with interlaced PRR in the Keystone and Tuscan 5 stripe with interlaced PRR. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] new line of locomotives Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:44:59 -0500 ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C188D6.684648A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gary wrote: "Hmmm, you mentioned the KCS too. Wasn't it one of that lines model locos, a PFM Crown 2-10-4 if I recall, that sold for over $30,000 at auction? One just never knows which loco will be respected by collectors." Ah yes, the KCS 2-10-4 crown. Auctioned off a Sotherbys in 1997-8 for $32= ,000!! It was from a run of only 13 individually-built by PFM. When it wa= s released in 1963, these engines went foe $169, a pretty penny back in t= hose days. The funny thing is that these rare Crowns for the early 60's h= ard the moter and drive train that would have rivaled the Penn Line / Bow= ser unit! Yikes!! Bring on the Athearn Genesis Mikados! Seriously, I was stating that in high priced brass for certain roads may = not do well given the smaller market. No offence to those who model the K= CS, Wabash, etc. Ted Andrews P.S.: NO! I was not the high bidder at Sotherbys for that KSC Crown. :P = =20 =20 ----- Original Message ----- From: mittner@webtv.net Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 7:18 PM To: ted_andrews@msn.com Cc: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] new line of locomotives =20 Ted, Its funny you mentioned Oriental Imports being involved with the new Broadway Limited Import line, I didn't know this. Challenger Imports is also a takeoff from Oriental Imports, did you know that? I guess we can now see the "Imports" connection? Hmmm, you mentioned the KCS too. Wasn't it one of that lines model locos, a PFM Crown 2-10-4 if I recall, that sold for over $30,000 at auction? One just never knows which loco will be respected by collectors. As for the NYC J1e being BLI's first release, I will be looking into one. Modeling/Photographing the "Great Race" out of Chicago was always a goal. Just may have to part with my unpainted, mint Westside/Mizuno NYC J1e and J3a...............NOT! Bring on PRR Steamers! The K4s, M1's or whatever..... ............Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C188D6.684648A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gary wrote:
 
 "Hmmm, you mentioned the KCS too.  = Wasn't it one of that lines model
locos, a PFM Crown 2-10-4 if I recal= l, that sold for over $30,000 at
auction? One just never knows which l= oco will be respected by
collectors."
 
&nb= sp;
Ah yes, the KCS 2-10-4 crown. Auctioned off a Sotherbys in= 1997-8 for $32,000!! It was from a run of only 13 individually-built&nbs= p;by PFM. When it was released in 1963, these engines went foe $169,= a pretty penny back in those days. The funny thing is that these rare&nb= sp;Crowns for the early 60's hard the moter and drive train&nbs= p;that would have rivaled the Penn Line / Bowser unit! Yikes!! Bring on t= he Athearn Genesis Mikados!
 
Seriously, = I was stating that in high priced brass for certain roads may n= ot do well given the smaller market. No offence to those who model t= he KCS, Wabash, etc.
 
Ted Andrews
=  
P.S.: NO! I was not the high bidder at Sotherbys f= or that KSC Crown.  :P  
 
=
----- Original Message -----
From: mittner@webtv.n= et
Sent: Wednesday, December= 19, 2001 7:18 PM
To: ted_an= drews@msn.com
Cc: smithbf@ma= il.auburn.edu; prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] new line of locomotives
 
Te= d,

    Its funny you mentioned Oriental Imports bei= ng involved with the new
Broadway Limited Import line, I didn't know t= his. Challenger Imports is
also a takeoff from Oriental Imports, did y= ou know that? I guess we can
now see the "Imports" connection?
&nbs= p;  Hmmm, you mentioned the KCS too.  Wasn't it one of that lin= es model
locos, a PFM Crown 2-10-4 if I recall, that sold for over $30= ,000 at
auction? One just never knows which loco will be respected by<= BR>collectors.
     As for the NYC J1e being BLI's= first release, I will be looking
into one. Modeling/Photographing the= "Great Race" out of Chicago was
always a goal. Just may have to part = with my unpainted, mint
Westside/Mizuno NYC J1e and J3a...............= NOT!

     Bring on PRR Steamers! The K4s, M1's= or whatever.....

............Gary





Come vis= it my PRR Pages:  Photos, Models, Historical Items and  Art
= Work!.......and MY NEW  K4s,  G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>><= BR>
PRR Loco Pics:
http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com

&
http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html
and......
PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models:

http://www.angelfire.com/f= ilm/prrpics/indexpics.html


-----------------------------------= ------------------------------------
For assistance with this list, pl= ease visit http://lists.dsop.com.
------=_NextPart_001_0000_01C188D6.684648A0-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "WaltP" Subject: [PRR] Tichy "war emergency gon" Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:14:41 -0500 Guys, Being a teacher (yeah I am off for 1 1/2 weeks) I have some up coming time on my hands, so I figured I'd build a pair of the above. I have a couple of questions; 1) Is this a "supposed" G30 (or one of it's varients). 2) If so, shouldn't the miner brake ratchet be mounted onto the end directly, and not perpendicular (on the models "ear")? 3) I figure to follow the picture of a similar Pennsy gon (page 55 PRR Color Guide by Sweetland/Yanosey for general lettering, but what would be the series number? Assuming it is a G30. Thanks for the assist Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "WaltP" Subject: [PRR] Diesel Color Transition Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:21:25 -0500 Thanks for the info and feedback Jerry and Rich. But Rich, now I have three lettering schemes (or sub schemes) to consider. I guess life is full of decisions. ;-) Again, much appreciated Walt Prusick BTW, being a subscriber of Yahoo, I can vouch that generally they are trouble free, but are inoperative about once a month. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] M-1a lubricator linkage Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 00:29:37 -0500 Hi All, Here is a scan of my just completed S Scale M-1a drive with the lubricator linkage that actually pivots. http://users.snip.net/~billlane/linkage.jpg I changed the lubricator casting in favor of a better one, and fabricated the linkage. All of this took a good 10 hours, but it was so worth it. I don't think that there are many models that have this modeled correctly out of the box. That is the beauty of S Scale, being able to SEE details like this. It is interesting that in the last pages of "I Remember Pennsy" it shows this area on # 6755. This linkage was not connected. I took a very similar photo about 5 years ago at the museum in Strasburg, knowing I was going to model this detail. It is still not connected. http://users.snip.net/~billlane/lubricator.jpg Thanks for looking. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 03:19:01 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives Morgan, list, I would love an H6sb kit in HO. The way the market is going, ready to run with a plastic boiler, metal chassis, can motor, and a flywheel with separately applied piping (ie P2K) would be just fine as well. I'd like mine with a power reverse. A resin boiler for an E3sd/E5s could be added to the Bowser E6s chassis. I would give a significant part of my anatomy for a D16sb (the 1223 at Strasburg was my introduction to PRR steam in 1977). Doug --- PennsyNut2@aol.com wrote: > Here I am with my 2 cents worth. > > Why oh why do we not have some locos from 1900 +. > > We need class H-5 Juniata built 1898; H-6 Juniata > built 1899; H-6b ALCo built > 1906; H-6sb Baldwin built 1906 (my personal all-time > favorite freight > engine); E-2 Juniata built 1901; E-3sd Juniata built > 1907/8; and E-5 Juniata > built 1910 (my personal all-time favorite passenger > engine). > > How about it guys? > > Morgan Bilbo > Ferroequinologist, PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true > Pennsy Nut! > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 06:26:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Discussion Web From: Jerry Britton Al: I beg to differ on the following point... On 12/19/01 5:26 PM, Al Buchan at (abbuchan1@home.com) wrote: > AB response - ...First of all > PRR-Talk is an adjunct of a for profit hobby business - as can be seen in > the trailer message (see below), which is a problem for a non-profit > corporation. Not true. PRR-talk was established in 1996. Though Desktop Solutions, the parent company of Merchandise Service was founded in 1987, online marketing of model railroad products did not begin until circa 1998. Further, the list itself does not promote Merchandise Service. The "trailer" you refer to is in my signature file and only appears on posts that I make. EVERYONE on the Internet has the right to have a signature. This does not make the list an "adjunct of a for profit hobby business". The only trailer the list puts out is a pointer to the list's help page on the web. At the request of a few, several years ago, Merchandise Service created a separate "Merchandise Announce" list with hundreds of folks on it. Through it product announcements are disbursed. Every now and then breaking, unique news is posted to PRR-talk, but that is done in a generic "see your dealer" manner. > Secondly the chat dialog prevalent on Talk, as well as FAX, is > not considered to be a desirable attribute for the DW. I don't think the > users of the DW want all of the chat dialog. Perhaps valid. > Thirdly Gregg mentions Jerry's > web site. Very little of the material present on Jerry's web site is what > can be classified as original material. Most of it has been transcribed from > original documents and is therefore prone to some degree of errors. Again, not true. Perhaps you haven't really delved into the site for several years. My site is loaded with PDF files of original PRR documents: PTT's, ETT's, interlocking diagrams, Annual Reports, CT1000's. Just last evening I finished a Makeup Of Trains book. A 1900 CT1000 has already been scanned. I will grant you that roster information has been transcribed. Why? So it is searchable! Having it in a database makes much more sense than any other format. But yes, this method is subject to error. Keystone Crossings was the second large PRR site to hit the net. Today I am confident it is either the largest or the second largest (Rob's). It has several hundred MB of data and over 30,000 database records. > Jerry's > web site (along with others) is listed in the Links section of the Society's > web site with a disclaimer. However, I would like to point out that material > such as Rob Schoenberg's equipment diagrams, which are scans of all original > PRR documents, are shown as a direct link from the National's home page. Again, there is bias here, for some reason. Rob has done a great job, but I have MANY PDF files of ORIGINAL documents. In fact, I was the first to use PDF, which is now being adopted by others. > As > time goes by it is planned to have more original documents added as direct > links from the home page. As the official historical and technical society > of the PRR it is our responsibility to ensure that erroneous information is > not distributed. There are several PRR type web sites in cyber space with > very slick graphics but with erroneous info. Agreed. > Note - this comment is not > directed to Jerry's site per se. Al: Not intended at all as an attack on you. Just clearing some facts and stating my case. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 08:00:31 -0500 From: James Stob Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Discussion Web Merry Christmas! Jerry Britton wrote: > Al: > > I beg to differ on the following point... > > On 12/19/01 5:26 PM, Al Buchan at (abbuchan1@home.com) wrote: > > > AB response - ...First of all > > PRR-Talk is an adjunct of a for profit hobby business - as can be seen in > > the trailer message (see below), which is a problem for a non-profit > > corporation. > > Not true. PRR-talk was established in 1996. Though Desktop Solutions, the > parent company of Merchandise Service was founded in 1987, online marketing > of model railroad products did not begin until circa 1998. > > Further, the list itself does not promote Merchandise Service. The "trailer" > you refer to is in my signature file and only appears on posts that I make. > EVERYONE on the Internet has the right to have a signature. This does not > make the list an "adjunct of a for profit hobby business". The only trailer > the list puts out is a pointer to the list's help page on the web. > > At the request of a few, several years ago, Merchandise Service created a > separate "Merchandise Announce" list with hundreds of folks on it. Through > it product announcements are disbursed. Every now and then breaking, unique > news is posted to PRR-talk, but that is done in a generic "see your dealer" > manner. > > > Secondly the chat dialog prevalent on Talk, as well as FAX, is > > not considered to be a desirable attribute for the DW. I don't think the > > users of the DW want all of the chat dialog. > > Perhaps valid. > > > Thirdly Gregg mentions Jerry's > > web site. Very little of the material present on Jerry's web site is what > > can be classified as original material. Most of it has been transcribed from > > original documents and is therefore prone to some degree of errors. > > Again, not true. Perhaps you haven't really delved into the site for several > years. My site is loaded with PDF files of original PRR documents: PTT's, > ETT's, interlocking diagrams, Annual Reports, CT1000's. Just last evening I > finished a Makeup Of Trains book. A 1900 CT1000 has already been scanned. > > I will grant you that roster information has been transcribed. Why? So it is > searchable! Having it in a database makes much more sense than any other > format. But yes, this method is subject to error. > > Keystone Crossings was the second large PRR site to hit the net. Today I am > confident it is either the largest or the second largest (Rob's). It has > several hundred MB of data and over 30,000 database records. > > > Jerry's > > web site (along with others) is listed in the Links section of the Society's > > web site with a disclaimer. However, I would like to point out that material > > such as Rob Schoenberg's equipment diagrams, which are scans of all original > > PRR documents, are shown as a direct link from the National's home page. > > Again, there is bias here, for some reason. Rob has done a great job, but I > have MANY PDF files of ORIGINAL documents. In fact, I was the first to use > PDF, which is now being adopted by others. > > > As > > time goes by it is planned to have more original documents added as direct > > links from the home page. As the official historical and technical society > > of the PRR it is our responsibility to ensure that erroneous information is > > not distributed. There are several PRR type web sites in cyber space with > > very slick graphics but with erroneous info. > > Agreed. > > > Note - this comment is not > > directed to Jerry's site per se. > > Al: Not intended at all as an attack on you. Just clearing some facts and > stating my case. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: RE: [PRR] new line of locomotives Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 07:11:02 -0600 Ted and List, Well stated Ted. Signature locomotives of well known roads always sell well as you stated. so bring on the J, M and I, oh must not forget the K. Just my two cents. Peter Reinhold Universal Die & Stampings 735 15th Street Prairie Du Sac, WI. 53578 PH. 608-643-2477 Fax 608-643-2024 preinhol@unidie.com -----Original Message----- From: Ted Andrews [SMTP:ted_andrews@msn.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 4:16 PM To: smithbf@mail.auburn.edu; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] new line of locomotives Bruce and the List: I respectfully disagree. While the GG-1 in a P2K format would sell very well (even to non-PRR models and PRR modelers who do not have a catenary system), specific PRR steam would sell very well in plastic and here is why: 1. The company involved, Broadway Limited Exports, is directly related to Oriental Imports, a long term brass importer. This is a good sign since many brass importers have developed a long term market profiles for many different engines, cars, and the roadnames that they are offered in. They have a very good idea on what will sell and what will not. 2. Certain PRR steam engines have sold very well despite the increasing prices for brass. Probably the most notable classes are the M-1 and the J-1. I think that the M-1 has been offered by Challenger Imports at least 3 times in the 1990's. Despite the price tags in the $1200-$1400, these runs sold out soon after their release. The J-1 was released by Key Imports in the mid-80's and early-90's and they too sold out quickly after there release. Other PRR brass engines that have sold very well despite tipping the price tag of $1000 or more are the I-1 and the T-1. The K-4 has also done well even though Railworks has been the other importer for this engine for a while. On the other hand, the N-1 Santa Fe, imported by Challenger imports, did not sell well a few years ago. Despite exquisite work by Samhongsa, the $1,100 price tag was too much for this low demand engine. I think that many of the large brass model RR stores still have a few of these engines in stock. 3. The PRR engines are not collected by PRR fans exclusively. Many of the people who have purchased these PRR engines like the M-1, J-1, and I-1 collect a wide variety of of RR as well. They want to get a J-1 because it typifies the Pennsy like the J-1e typifies the NYC. 4. The market has changed. It is true that these engines will not fit on an 18 inch or 22 inch radius. But I think that the market that P2k and Broadway Limited Imports is going after is the high quality, high detailed engines for the descriminating modeller. In addition, specific railroads are being offered. A PRR steam engine in high quality plastic is just as probable as a C&O H-6 Allegaenny (Rivarossi)or a Big Boy (Marklin) or a NYC J-1e (Broadway Limited Imports). 5. Lastly, and I think may be the biggest factor of all, is that the constraints of cost for brass models may finally be reached in certain areas such as steam engines and passenger cars. As I have mentioned earlier, some PRR engines have sold well in brass despite the $1,500 price tag. That cannot be said for many other railroads and thier engines. A KCS or Wabash steamer may not sell well at those prices do to the low market potential. That has forced importers to go after railroads and engines that have a more broader appeal. I think that with the introduction of new technology in plastic construction and the chinese labor market, plastic engine construction now rivals and in some cases surpasses, the brass market. The engines are now dripping with detail, run great, and are a mere fraction of the cost of their brass counterparts. In addition, companies like P2K can include a "parts bag" with each engine sold so that every modeler can easily modify his engine the way he wants. The plastic medium makes this very possible. Brass cannot. In short, I believe that we are know facing a new field of model railroading. "Composite" engines, those constructed from a variety of mediums (i.e.: metal, plastic, resin, etc) will now begin to replace the brass engines at a fraction of the cost. I think that brass will still be available but I think that you may start seeing brass importers like Oriental Limited starting subsidiary companies to import high quality plastic. In summary, I think that it is the beginning of some very exciting times in the hobby. Just imagine what will be available within the next 10 years! I do believe that PRR in plastic will be coming out soon and at least some of the major classes will sell very well. Ted Andrews >From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] new line of locomotives >Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:04:08 -0600 > >John Sez: > >If they were to do a K-4. Why not do something that has not been > >offered in plastic before and would be a best seller to even NON PRR > >FANS. Why not do the 3768. The fully streamlined loco from the Broadway > >Limited!!! If MTH can do it in O scale and it be a good seller than why > >can't someone do it in HO scale. > >Also a J would be great. Or even one of the turbines. I would like to > >see a MP-54 and E-44 and last but not least. How about a Baldwin 6 wheel > >passenger shark! > >John Caples > >I think John is on the right track here...all of you begging for the PRR >specific locos need to rethink what the sales allure is...Name the highest >selling model PRR loco of ALL time? The GG-1 of course! Thousands of >modelers buy this model, and they don't model PRR and they don't have >catenary. What you are looking for is mass appeal. Do you REALLY think >this company is catering to NYC steam fans with their first release? I >don't think so! So, when y'all come down to earth, I think you can forget >about teh following classes: >A (too small) >B (you're getting a B-26, you want a B-6 and B-8(tank)? dream on!) >C (you're kidding right?) >D (4-4-0? great static model!) >E (Oh for a scale E-6 (and an E-5 and an E3sd for my wire train)...but it >ain't happening!) >F (HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!!!!!!! Lines WHERE?) >G (with Bowser out of stock, we can dream...) >H (only an SPF would want this...I need a bunch!) >I (ditto!) >J (are you kidding? Think of the min radius required! No appeal beyond >SPF and C&O fan(s)) >L (only an SPF...) >M (we all know what great locos these were...nobody else gives a hoot!) >N (aw heck, even some SPF's can't tell an N1 from an N2!...although there >is USRA potential here) > >What's left? >K-4s (new Botchman is coming, so perhaps you would just need a conversion >body and tender for streamlining) >Q, S, T, CC, HC > >As for non steam, if Tyco can sell a "GG-1" with two six wheel trucks, I >can wish for a P-5a modified or an R-1!! > >Happy Rails >Bruce > >Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. >Scott-Ritchey Research Center >334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) >http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > >"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin >Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] new line of locomotives Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:01:42 -0500 Fellow Pennsy Fans, I don't believe that a sell out of a brass model equates to anything in terms of potential plastic sales. Why? A LOT of recent runs of brass locos are less than 25 of a specific type. A sellout of 25 VERY expensive locos does not forecast success in selling the thousands of plastic locos needed to make it profitable. That said, I am still excited about the wished for new offerings where we all can afford to buy more than one (or only one) without having to hock the house. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----- Original Message ----- From: Ted Andrews To: ; Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 5:16 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] new line of locomotives > > Bruce and the List: > > I respectfully disagree. While the GG-1 in a P2K format would sell very well > (even to non-PRR models and PRR modelers who do not have a catenary system), > specific PRR steam would sell very well in plastic and here is why: > > 1. The company involved, Broadway Limited Exports, is directly related to > Oriental Imports, a long term brass importer. This is a good sign since many > brass importers have developed a long term market profiles for many > different engines, cars, and the roadnames that they are offered in. They > have a very good idea on what will sell and what will not. > > 2. Certain PRR steam engines have sold very well despite the increasing > prices for brass. Probably the most notable classes are the M-1 and the J-1. > I think that the M-1 has been offered by Challenger Imports at least 3 times > in the 1990's. Despite the price tags in the $1200-$1400, these runs sold > out soon after their release. The J-1 was released by Key Imports in the > mid-80's and early-90's and they too sold out quickly after there release. > Other PRR brass engines that have sold very well despite tipping the price > tag of $1000 or more are the I-1 and the T-1. The K-4 has also done well > even though Railworks has been the other importer for this engine for a > while. On the other hand, the N-1 Santa Fe, imported by Challenger imports, > did not sell well a few years ago. Despite exquisite work by Samhongsa, the > $1,100 price tag was too much for this low demand engine. I think that many > of the large brass model RR stores still have a few of these engines in > stock. > > 3. The PRR engines are not collected by PRR fans exclusively. Many of the > people who have purchased these PRR engines like the M-1, J-1, and I-1 > collect a wide variety of of RR as well. They want to get a J-1 because it > typifies the Pennsy like the J-1e typifies the NYC. > > 4. The market has changed. It is true that these engines will not fit on an > 18 inch or 22 inch radius. But I think that the market that P2k and Broadway > Limited Imports is going after is the high quality, high detailed engines > for the descriminating modeller. In addition, specific railroads are being > offered. A PRR steam engine in high quality plastic is just as probable as a > C&O H-6 Allegaenny (Rivarossi)or a Big Boy (Marklin) or a NYC J-1e (Broadway > Limited Imports). > > 5. Lastly, and I think may be the biggest factor of all, is that the > constraints of cost for brass models may finally be reached in certain areas > such as steam engines and passenger cars. As I have mentioned earlier, some > PRR engines have sold well in brass despite the $1,500 price tag. That > cannot be said for many other railroads and thier engines. A KCS or Wabash > steamer may not sell well at those prices do to the low market potential. > That has forced importers to go after railroads and engines that have a more > broader appeal. I think that with the introduction of new technology in > plastic construction and the chinese labor market, plastic engine > construction now rivals and in some cases surpasses, the brass market. The > engines are now dripping with detail, run great, and are a mere fraction of > the cost of their brass counterparts. In addition, companies like P2K can > include a "parts bag" with each engine sold so that every modeler can easily > modify his engine the way he wants. The plastic medium makes this very > possible. Brass cannot. In short, I believe that we are know facing a new > field of model railroading. "Composite" engines, those constructed from a > variety of mediums (i.e.: metal, plastic, resin, etc) will now begin to > replace the brass engines at a fraction of the cost. I think that brass will > still be available but I think that you may start seeing brass importers > like Oriental Limited starting subsidiary companies to import high quality > plastic. > > In summary, I think that it is the beginning of some very exciting times in > the hobby. Just imagine what will be available within the next 10 years! I > do believe that PRR in plastic will be coming out soon and at least some of > the major classes will sell very well. > > Ted Andrews ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PennsyNut2@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:27:41 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] new line of locomotives --part1_74.15397c1c.29536b7d_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Listers: The reason I put in my 2 cents worth on the H-6 and E-5 was pretty much the same reason we could have another (plastic preferred) H-8/9/10 and E-6. They used the same boiler. That is the H-6 and E-5. The H-8/9/10 & E-6 also used a same boiler. Now I am not a manufacturer, but it seems logical to me that if a casting of the basic boiler is made, and the details cast separately, you could package the model as "buildable" as any of the configurations desired. The undecorated kits now include different pilots within the same box -- don't they? So, package an undecorated kit with a FINE running mechanism (Bachmann's 2-8-0 ?), a FINE boiler, and separate packages of FINE detail parts allowing a modeler to detail the engine to his desires based upon the specific prototype he/she wants -- hopefully based upon good pictures and good research. Etc. By the way, what about those "Cary" boilers that made the Bowser I-1 correct? And didn't they have the boiler marked for details? Dimples where you drilled, and so on. It seems to me the plastic boiler could have an overlay to allow drilling. Several overlays for the specific detail locations needed -- injectors, etc. Isn't this what a good modeler really needs? IMHO we don't need to build the mechanism. I want a mechanism ready to run (with DCC and sound). Then, I can detail the engine to my degree. "The nth degree" for the rivet counters, and minimum for the toy train enthusiast. Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! --part1_74.15397c1c.29536b7d_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey Listers:

The reason I put in my 2 cents worth on the H-6 and E-5 was pretty much the same reason we could have another (plastic preferred) H-8/9/10 and E-6.  They used the same boiler.  That is the H-6 and E-5.  The H-8/9/10 & E-6 also used a same boiler.

Now I am not a manufacturer, but it seems logical to me that if a casting of the basic boiler is made, and the details cast separately, you could package the model as "buildable" as any of the configurations desired.  The undecorated kits now include different pilots within the same box -- don't they?  So, package an undecorated kit with a FINE running mechanism (Bachmann's 2-8-0 ?), a FINE boiler, and separate packages of FINE detail parts allowing a modeler to detail the engine to his desires based upon the specific prototype he/she wants -- hopefully based upon good pictures and good research.  Etc.  By the way, what about those "Cary" boilers that made the Bowser I-1 correct?  And didn't they have the boiler marked for details?  Dimples where you drilled, and so on.  It seems to me the plastic boiler could have an overlay to allow drilling.  Several overlays for the specific detail locations needed -- injectors, etc.

Isn't this what a good modeler really needs?   IMHO we don't need to build the mechanism.  I want a mechanism ready to run (with DCC and sound).  Then, I can detail the engine to my degree.  "The nth degree" for the rivet counters, and minimum for the toy train enthusiast.

Morgan Bilbo
Ferroequinologist, PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! --part1_74.15397c1c.29536b7d_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:15:35 -0600 Subject: [PRR] PRR: I-1 fans (con'd) From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Standard Railroad of the World, indeed. In re-examining the photos, I find that: About 1/3 of the engines whose left side is showing have mechanical lubricators. About half of the engines whose right side is showing have train control boxes Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:33:51 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 12/18/01 In a message dated 12/18/01 11:50:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives From: Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 14:27:20 EST In a message dated 12/18/01 11:18:22 AM Central Standard Time, cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: << Wouldn't the J be a good choice because with detail changes it could be a C&O engine and a Santa Fe engine >> I am not aware of a Sante Fe engine that is close. Bob Zoeller >> Bob, I agree. But there seem to be a myriad of fans who insist on confusing the PRR J-1 with the Santa Fe 5011 class, probably because they're in the same 1956 pix in Pennsy Power. Other than being big and beautiful, the two 2-10-4's don't look much alike to me. I don't have much steam info in my library, but compare a few specs (PRR from PRR no. 109J and ATSF from the MR Cyclopedia): J-1/J-1a ATSF 5011 Built 1942-1944 1944 Boiler pressure 270 310 Cylinders 29x34 30x34 Driver size 70" 74" Pilot wheels 33" 42" Trailing wheels 36+44" 40" Spacing between driver centers ? 77", 81" Total driver wheelbase 24'-4" 26'-0" Weight 575880# 538000# TE 93750# 93000# Basically, I fear that a running gear appropriate for the one would be unsatisfactory to the other -- a common problem with marketing "families" of steam models. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tichy "war emergency gon" Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 21:58:29 -0500 Walt, and all see below. 1) it is a G30, The G30a had wood sides replaced with steel. (Anyone have a photo of one, I would like to see a G30a.) 2)The handbrake should be on the end of the car as you suggest. Also from what I have read it was a Kasling (sp?) not miner hand brake BTW where did you get one, it is the one piece I am missing to complete mine. 3)Picture in the color guide is a G29 class not sure of the subclass. The July or August RMC had a photo of a G30. They were the builders photo's from Hagley. For the series number (I assume yours is undecorated) see Rob's site. Additional info you might like. You may want to pick a number series that had national trucks, available from P2k, it makes a neat model. Again Rob's site is helpful here. The trucks supplied are not correct for the PRR as far as I know, however, the other class of trucks to appear under the G30 was the 2E-F19. Anyone have a pic? The tichy kit has little towing staples on the bottom chord of the side truss. Remove them. Only the NYC and it's affiliated roads had them. Apparently the NYC family gons were the prototype for the kit since they also had the side mounted brake wheel that is supplied. In the "if you are anal like me department" replace the supplied open grid steel brake step with one fabricated from diamond plate. The builders photos show a diamond tread brake step. It is a nice kit. Hope this helps, Brian J Carlson ----- Original Message ----- From: "WaltP" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 10:14 PM Subject: [PRR] Tichy "war emergency gon" > Guys, > Being a teacher (yeah I am off for 1 1/2 weeks) I have some up coming time > on my hands, so I figured I'd build a pair of the above. I have a couple of > questions; > 1) Is this a "supposed" G30 (or one of it's varients). > 2) If so, shouldn't the miner brake ratchet be mounted onto the end > directly, > and not perpendicular (on the models "ear")? > 3) I figure to follow the picture of a similar Pennsy gon (page 55 PRR Color > Guide by Sweetland/Yanosey for general lettering, but what would be the > series number? Assuming it is a G30. > > Thanks for the assist > Walt Prusick > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Baggage Mail Car Summary 1954 Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 23:26:35 -0500 Jerry on routes that required a 60' mail space a 60 foot car was the norm. The reason being was the volume of mail required one larger car. The PRR had many routes where a 30' car was fine, so that is why there was more 30' cars. The Spring 1993 Keystone has a great article on RPO cars. Also can you contact me off list regarding the bmakeup of trains book, Thanks. Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Jerry Britton" ; "PRR-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 6:35 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Baggage Mail Car Summary 1954 > On 12/18/01 7:48 PM, Jerry Britton at (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > > > I was researching Baggage Mail cars on the roster as of 1954 to see what > > sub-classes were most common. > > > > My source is an original copy of the "Passenger Car Roster" as published by > > the PRR on October 1, 1954. The information on trucks comes from a reprint > > roster prepared by Wahsatch Backshop a few years back. > > > > (65) BM70ka - 3C-P1, 3D-P2, 3D5P1, 3D5P2, 3D5P3 > > (56) BM70k - 3C-P1, 3D5P1, 3D5P2, 3D5P3 > > (46) BM70m - 3C-P1, 3D-P1, 3D-P2, 3D7P2 > > (15) BM70n - 3D-P1, 3D-P2, 3D7P2 > > (14) BM70nb - 2E-P5, 2E-P6A > > (8) BM70l - 3D5P3, 3D5P5 > > > > Figured while I compiled the data I might as well share! > > Additional interpretation... > > The BM70k/BM70ka's outnumber the BM70m's by a factor of roughly 3:1. > > However, in reviewing the New York-west trains in the "Makeup of Trains" > book for the New York Division -- published the same year as the "Passenger > Car Roster" -- the specification for BM70m's over BM70k/BM70ka's is the > opposite...roughly 4:1 in favor of the BM70m. > > Now, the BM70m has 60' of working mail space; the BM70k/BM70ka only 30'. Is > it possible that the "Makeup of Trains" is really spec'ing 60' of mail space > when it specs a BM70m, and that perhaps two BM70k/bm70ka's might have been > used instead? > > I only suggest this based on mail storage cars, where a MS60 means "60' of > mail storage space" which could be met by a B60 or an R50 (really only > 53')...or by two X-29's. I'm just trying to adapt a theory! > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] DCC & B&M off topic requests (Small PRR content) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 08:45:47 -0500 Listers, I know a few of you use DCC so I have a quick question. When wiring tethered throttles I assume that you don't need multiple cab connections like on a regular system where you need a connection for each cab for each block. Is this correct? Two quick B&M questions (One with PRR content) The PRR leased out it's clearance car to other railroads. Did it ever go to the B&M? Also if there are any B&M modelers lurking on the list contact me off list> Thanks, Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: [PRR] Named freights Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 08:00:23 -0600 I saw a reference to the "Ace" yesterday. Can anyone giove me any details please? Also what name freights ran on the corridor between Zoo and Trenton. Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Named freights Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:11:10 -0500 Norm, Search the PRR talk Archives. There was a thread about 2 yrs ago on named Frt. Trains and someone put a list together including routes. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Norm Bell [mailto:nbell@repco.com] Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 9:00 AM To: Prr-Talk Subject: [PRR] Named freights I saw a reference to the "Ace" yesterday. Can anyone giove me any details please? Also what name freights ran on the corridor between Zoo and Trenton. Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:24:32 -0500 Subject: [PRR] What Sub-Class Are These Passenger Models From: Jerry Britton I am nearing completion of a major revision to my passenger car pages. I need to know the sub-classes of the following HO models. Can anyone help me out here? B62? - Bethlehem Car Works (cannot even confirm major class) BM70? - IHC (BM70nb ?) D78? - Bachmann Spectrum D78? - Eastern Car Works P70? - Bachmann Spectrum PB70? - Bachmann Spectrum PB70? - Eastern Car Works Z74? - Bachmann Spectrum Z74? - Eastern Car Works ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:57:44 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Note About Keystone Crossings Web Site From: Jerry Britton An update on the Keystone Crossings web site: Throughout the site you may find references to files that are "available exclusively via CD-ROM #4". This is not a sign of things to come. The "prime directive" of "Keystone Crossings" is to share as much original PRR material as possible, free of charge. The source documents are typically already in our possession or are loaned to the site for the purpose of scanning. The CD-ROM in question is a special collection of material specific to the year 1954. These materials were acquired at great financial cost. Hence their availability solely in this manner. Completing this CD-ROM by May 2002 is my main objective at this time. Therefore, most new file notations throughout the site refer to this commercial product. Once I have the CD-ROM out-the-door, I have plenty of "free" content to process and post. Rest assured that "Keystone Crossings" is not becoming a pay-for-content site. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:23:22 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Reminder - Free PRR Web Hosting From: Jerry Britton Reminder for those who have joined the list over the past year or so... Free web hosting is available via the Desktop Solutions servers for PRR-related web sites under the PENNSYRR.COM domain name. Such sites would have a unique prefix in their URL (e.g. broadway.pennsyrr.com). You would have complete control over the content via a private FTP account. Prospective sites must have substantial content not available elsewhere (rather than being a list of links to other content). The servers have a UPS (battery backup), nightly backups, and excellent record of up-time. No limits on data transfers (e.g. geocities), etc. Up-to-the-minute stat graphs available. Daily hit reports available via e-mail. If interested, contact me off-list for additional information. Again, NO COST! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 13:57:13 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Happy Holidays! From: Jerry Britton Since I know many of you receive this list at work and will soon be leaving for the holidays, may I take a moment to say "Happy Holidays" to all! If you haven't noticed, there has been "seasonal" PRR art on display on the main page of "Keystone Crossings" all month, so take a look if you haven't been by. May you and your families have a happy and safe holiday season! And may Santa fill your home with lots of railroad goodies! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 16:47:39 EST Subject: [PRR] Likelihood of new PRR steam in plastic In a message dated 12/20/01 9:39:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Now I am not a manufacturer, but it seems logical to me that if a casting of the basic boiler is made, and the details cast separately, you could package the model as "buildable" as any of the configurations desired. The undecorated kits now include different pilots within the same box -- don't they? So, package an undecorated kit with a FINE running mechanism (Bachmann's 2-8-0 ?), a FINE boiler, and separate packages of FINE detail parts allowing a modeler to detail the engine to his desires based upon the specific prototype he/she wants -- hopefully based upon good pictures and good research. Etc. By the way, what about those "Cary" boilers that made the Bowser I-1 correct? And didn't they have the boiler marked for details? Dimples where you drilled, and so on. It seems to me the plastic boiler could have an overlay to allow drilling. Several overlays for the specific detail locations needed -- injectors, etc. Isn't this what a good modeler really needs? IMHO we don't need to build the mechanism. I want a mechanism ready to run (with DCC and sound). Then, I can detail the engine to my degree. "The nth degree" for the rivet counters, and minimum for the toy train enthusiast. >> Note to Morgan and others: This is a really stimulating thread you've got going. And I identify strongly with Morgan's plea for a kit that can be built up a kazillion ways to match a prototype. And I hope we get it at a price we can touch. However, from watching the market churn these days, I fear that a couple of principles will hold sway: 1. Brass builders can afford to produce tiny groups of engines built to specific prototype. I don't think any of us really know what size groups of "specific" plastic engines are practical to manufacture, or to market. Plastic steam is just too new to have provided much of a track record, and now the economy is dipping, which will slow down new introductions for awhile. 2. If you are interested in building kits and modeling sincere prototypes, I applaud you. But remember always that such dedicated people are the tail, not the dog, in model railroading. The market seems to be speaking loudly that fully assembled models are what the vast number of people want. I don't really care why this is so -- laziness, time, or lack of motivation -- but I do believe it is so from direct observation of my buddies. I wonder if my experience is typical: nowadays I notice that rtr stuff I buy always makes it onto the layout, whereas easy-to-build often makes it onto the layout. At the same time, hard-to-build never makes it onto the layout any more. At some point, I figured this out, and just quit buying stuff for 20 years from now (when I'll be too old to build it anyway). Anyway, we should appreciate that model railroad manufacturers have the sometimes hazardous job of providing us with things we can use (that's different from providing us with what we wish for), meantime trying not to go broke. Right now is a poor time to take chances on radically new products, no matter how much we desire them. We can be encouraged, though, at the appearance of affordable, good-running steam. With time, we may eventually see more of the PRR prototypes we pine for. Keep dreaming -- but per the Rolling Stones, you can't always get what you want. In this hobby, it's sufficient that we'll like what we get. Happy holidays, Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Formerly operating the Panhandle Route in HO (Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968) And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Likelihood of new PRR steam in plastic Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 16:01:05 -0600 Way back when ( I think it was about '68 or '69) someone wrote to MR suggesting that an F unit be produced that could be built as any version the person wanted. As I recall, the drawing in MR that accompanied the letter showed the add on parts in red. They included the pilot, front door, fans, horns, side portholes, etc.. The new Highliner shell approximates what that person called for over 30 years ago. It is doable. The risk is great because of the die work amortazation I would presume but it isn't pushing the envelope terribly at this point. I would expect that it would not happen until the demand for the good running plastic steam is sated which may be some time since sales aren't hurting. Maybe in five to ten years if we are lucky is my thinking unless the manufacturers get together and agree to split the cost of the die work by each selling the shell for one different model with a common mechanism. Somebody would probably yell about price fixing and free markets even if that was possible so I guess we will wait. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 3:47 PM Subject: [PRR] Likelihood of new PRR steam in plastic > In a message dated 12/20/01 9:39:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > << Now I am not a manufacturer, but it seems logical to me that if a casting > of > the basic boiler is made, and the details cast separately, you could package > the model as "buildable" as any of the configurations desired. The > undecorated kits now include different pilots within the same box -- don't > they? So, package an undecorated kit with a FINE running mechanism > (Bachmann's 2-8-0 ?), a FINE boiler, and separate packages of FINE detail > parts allowing a modeler to detail the engine to his desires based upon the > specific prototype he/she wants -- hopefully based upon good pictures and > good research. Etc. By the way, what about those "Cary" boilers that made > the Bowser I-1 correct? And didn't they have the boiler marked for details? > > Dimples where you drilled, and so on. It seems to me the plastic boiler > could have an overlay to allow drilling. Several overlays for the specific > detail locations needed -- injectors, etc. > > Isn't this what a good modeler really needs? IMHO we don't need to build > the mechanism. I want a mechanism ready to run (with DCC and sound). Then, > I can detail the engine to my degree. "The nth degree" for the rivet > counters, and minimum for the toy train enthusiast. > >> > > Note to Morgan and others: This is a really stimulating thread you've got > going. And I identify strongly with Morgan's plea for a kit that can be > built up a kazillion ways to match a prototype. And I hope we get it at a > price we can touch. > > However, from watching the market churn these days, I fear that a couple of > principles will hold sway: > > 1. Brass builders can afford to produce tiny groups of engines built to > specific prototype. I don't think any of us really know what size groups of > "specific" plastic engines are practical to manufacture, or to market. > Plastic steam is just too new to have provided much of a track record, and > now the economy is dipping, which will slow down new introductions for awhile. > > 2. If you are interested in building kits and modeling sincere prototypes, I > applaud you. But remember always that such dedicated people are the tail, > not the dog, in model railroading. The market seems to be speaking loudly > that fully assembled models are what the vast number of people want. > > I don't really care why this is so -- laziness, time, or lack of motivation > -- but I do believe it is so from direct observation of my buddies. I wonder > if my experience is typical: nowadays I notice that rtr stuff I buy always > makes it onto the layout, whereas easy-to-build often makes it onto the > layout. At the same time, hard-to-build never makes it onto the layout any > more. At some point, I figured this out, and just quit buying stuff for 20 > years from now (when I'll be too old to build it anyway). > > Anyway, we should appreciate that model railroad manufacturers have the > sometimes hazardous job of providing us with things we can use (that's > different from providing us with what we wish for), meantime trying not to go > broke. Right now is a poor time to take chances on radically new products, > no matter how much we desire them. > > We can be encouraged, though, at the appearance of affordable, good-running > steam. With time, we may eventually see more of the PRR prototypes we pine > for. Keep dreaming -- but per the Rolling Stones, you can't always get what > you want. In this hobby, it's sufficient that we'll like what we get. > > Happy holidays, > > Til the next train out, > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Formerly operating the Panhandle Route in HO > (Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968) > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PennsyNut2@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 18:11:59 EST Subject: [PRR] Likelihood of new PRR steam in plastic --part1_187.e30b38.29551bbf_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank You! Rick Tipton! I agree that manufacturers must offer what will sell. But it you read all these messages/threads in both dsop and PRR-modelers on Yahoo, you see that many people are aware of the fact that a lot of PRR engines are bought by non-PRR people. I think the best all time example was the Lionel PRR Turbine. How many millions were sold? All of them to PRR modelers and fanatics (read "fans"). The reason I mentioned the H-8/9/10 and E-6 situation is because that particular model has been and still is available. There have been several brass versions too. But I also notice that "fellow" modelers that buy rtr diesels, then sit down and "add details" till they are blue in the face. I know several who bought the PP2 SD's and such that have extremely fine detail on them, and in the package to be added; and then go out and buy more. Have you seen the stuff "Details West" and those others are selling these days? And the cost of "super-detailing"? I can think of at least one person who had an old Rivarossi or someone's E-8 shell. When he was done detailing it, he spent over $100 on parts! More than the original loco cost -- with mechanism! What I advocate is: Make the detail packages available. Maybe the mfg. can include one specific package in the original purchase, and make options available at extra cost. So we could buy a basic H/E boiler with "modern" front end detail kit and 1> be happy. Or 2> then buy a different detail kit to "backdate" it. As for the modelers who just buy it and play with it -- there's always going to be them. But if we are to build the hobby and encourage young modelers, we need the kits. All this IMHO. :) Morgan Bilbo Ferroequinologist, PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! --part1_187.e30b38.29551bbf_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank You!  Rick Tipton!

I agree that manufacturers must offer what will sell.  But it you read all these messages/threads in both dsop and PRR-modelers on Yahoo, you see that many people are aware of the fact that a lot of PRR engines are bought by non-PRR people.  I think the best all time example was the Lionel PRR Turbine.  How many millions were sold?  All of them to PRR modelers and fanatics (read "fans").

The reason I mentioned the H-8/9/10 and E-6 situation is because that particular model has been and still is available.  There have been several brass versions too.  But I also notice that "fellow" modelers that buy rtr diesels, then sit down and "add details" till they are blue in the face.  I know several who bought the PP2 SD's and such that have extremely fine detail on them, and in the package to be added; and then go out and buy more.  Have you seen the stuff "Details West" and those others are selling these days?  And the cost of "super-detailing"?  I can think of at least one person who had an old Rivarossi or someone's E-8 shell.  When he was done detailing it, he spent over $100 on parts!  More than the original loco cost -- with mechanism!  

What I advocate is: Make the detail packages available.  Maybe the mfg. can include one specific package in the original purchase, and make options available at extra cost.

So we could buy a basic H/E boiler with "modern" front end detail kit and 1> be happy. Or 2> then buy a different detail kit to "backdate" it.

As for the modelers who just buy it and play with it -- there's always going to be them.  But if we are to build the hobby and encourage young modelers, we need the kits.

All this IMHO.  :)

Morgan Bilbo
Ferroequinologist, PRRT&HS #1204, SPF, And a true Pennsy Nut! --part1_187.e30b38.29551bbf_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 19:24:15 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Likelihood of new PRR steam in plastic In a message dated 12/21/01 5:20:31 PM Central Standard Time, PennsyNut2@aol.com writes: << I think the best all time example was the Lionel PRR Turbine. How many millions were sold? All of them to PRR modelers and fanatics (read "fans"). >> Don't forget that most of the years the NYC Hudson and PRR S-2 were produced, a huge percentage of the population of the U.S. lived on one of those two lines. Today, if we had any fallen flags left, California motive power would be the better marketing choice. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "WaltP" Subject: [PRR] Fw: Tichy G30 Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 22:24:13 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: WaltP To: ; <: prr-talk@dsop.com> Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 6:00 PM Subject: Tichy G30 > Thanks Brian, > Just started building a pair, meaning they have come out of the brakefluid, > and I am currently installing brass grabs and stirrup steps. The stirrups > with the kit are fine, emphasis on fine, as I broke one or two. I figure to > fabricate my ladders ala Bill Darnaby's article in the Dec '93 Model > Railroader. Those on the G30 "look" to be a dead ringer for those found on > the G26s. 'Sides I needed an excuse to get back to those G26s anyway. So > far, I am very satisfied with this kit as even I can do a creditable job on > it ;-) Thanks for the tip on those snatch/cable hooks. The razor has already > removed them. Much obliged for the info. > > Walt Prusick > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 01:25:37 -0500 From: Rail Classics Subject: [PRR] Rail Classics F-40 Heavy Duty Flat Car Hello All; We at Rail Classics www.railclassics.com are in production with a New Flat Car, the F-40 Heavy Duty Flat Car. This was the "Big Brother" to the F-38. Due to the fact we sold out our most recent project the F-38's we will fill the void of customers who delayed to order and missed out. The order forms will be mailed out to your dealers in January. This will be a very limited run. This project will be in the USA in February or March 2002. We will also offer a Load for the F-40, although we haven't fully decided which one as yet. See our Web site for more info. Thank you for your support with our projects, EDDY at RAIL CLASSICS www.railclassics.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 15:39:48 -0500 From: prrbill Subject: [PRR] PRR Special on WHYY, Channel 12 PHL/Wilmington's WHYY will finally air their PRR special at 8:00 PM on January 15, 2002. To quote from their website: "Pennsylvania's days as a giant of industry and transportation owed a great deal to one mega company, whose history has now been captured by WHYY-TV. The Pennsylvania Railroad tracked across the country for 150 years, moving people, goods and technology and doing much to shape this nation. On Tuesday, January 15 at 8 p.m. WHYY-TV will premiere THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD." More can be learned by visiting the website at . Usually, PBS stations also release for sale a VHS tape of their productions. Happy Holidays, Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 20:52:29 -0500 Nothing against Bowser, but I would rather have a P2k quality steam engine than a kit that takes forever to build and still not match the level of the newer plastic steam. Last email I received from Bowser seem to indicate that the J-1 project is pretty much dead. As for the M-1a available, the Sunset Sam built are going for over $400 unptd last time I checked. The Westside and Sunset Prestige M-1a leave a lot to be desired and the GEM's all seem to have wheel wear. I could see a plastic M-1a rising to the level of the CIL M-1a that is over $1,000. Speculations on new models is always an interesting topic. One interesting note is that affordable plastic Pennsy steam could bring mean more Pennsy modelers. Eric > [Original Message] > From: > To: > Date: 12/18/01 7:12:47 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] New Line of Locomotives > > Well Gize, > > Let's see, Kris just completely rebuilt the Bachmann K-4 with a rebuilt drive and seperate detail, so I wouldn't invest in that at least not for the momment. The M1 is still out there in Sunset or better (I have a Sunset I will let go at the right price...) and the J-1 well would you gambel on this if Bowser has it in th back of his mind to do it? So... What else could there be? I-1? G-5? B-6sb? B-8? Q-2? T-1? What? I guess there is a lot you could do. > > Greg Martin > > > > I am hoping for either the M-1a or the J-1.(or even a I-1) The only really good brass models of the M-1a are found in the high end spectrum, besides the Sunset Sam built one. Bachmann is rumored to be redoing their K-4 with separate details. I wonder if that will play in role in determining what Pennsy engine might be built. > Eric< --- Eric Lauterbach --- ealauterbach@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "WaltP" Subject: [PRR] Sunset K4s Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 08:23:01 -0500 Members, Santa may be good to me, I would like to know what were the shortcomings on the Sunset Prestige series K4s. I am well aware that no one manufacturer has ever gotten everything "exactly" right, but I can live with a few glitches in the detail, so long as it runs well. Comments and opinions are very welcome. Thanks, Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 10:20:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Sunset K4s Walt, The most obvious and major problem with the Sunset Prestige K4s is the Boiler. It dosn't even come close to the contour it should be. That alone is enough to keep it on the dealer shelves. Never owned one so I do not know if the other dimennsions etc are close. Even the Bachmann K4 is probably a better buy. For the most correct K4, (yes alot of money) try the Precission Scale or the unpainted Railworks, their Factory paints are too green for me). But or an everyday running K4, You can't go to wrong with the PFM. Got a feeling Rail Classics K4 has a shot of being the #1 when released....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Sunset K4s Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 10:37:08 -0600 Walt--I agree with Gary.......definitely point Santa in a different direction. Unfortunately, I do own a Sunset Prestige K4, and the boiler is definitely awful. It did however come with a 110P75 tender which was useful for another project. If you shop carefully you can find PFM K4's at reasonable prices, and don't forget Red Ball. It is a solid engine although lacking current state of the art details. But those details can be added easily. It also is the only model I know of which uses the last few K4's as the protoype. On these the pilot is braced by structural angles below the front of the smokebox rather than the more common tubular braces. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore Jennies... Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 14:29:23 -0500 Your inquiry concerned PRR ore jennies in N scale prompts me to ask about any possible progress with HO scale versions of same. I'm "out of the loop" in terms of efforts to produce such a car. I do recall some planning and even pre-production models, however. Can anyone on the List bring me up to date as to whether or not an HO scale PRR ore jenny is either already available, or may in fact see the light of day any time soon? I'm thinking beyond the MDC offering. Thanks in advance to anyone who responds. Terry Stuart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 22:04:40 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap Hi all, Sorry about the delay, but I just got back from a long (too long) business trip. The former LV tower "NK" still stands today. However, the former LV station at Meeker Ave is gone w/o a trace. As a related item, one of the Carleton books shows a photo of an LV steam loco in the "new" (1930's) Newark Station, presumably there to be changed out for a GG1. - Claus > According to Don Ball, it was at NK tower, located at Waverly Avenue in > Newark, NJ > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 1:35 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap > > > > Gregg wrote that the PRR-LV handoff in the 1940s-50s was well > > documented by Don Ball; but where did this occur? At Hunter? > > > > IBefore the wires went up, the handoff would of course have been at > > Manhattan Transfer. But later? And I assume in later years that > > the LV trains did stop at Pennsylvania Station Newark (Market > > Street), but when did this begin, does anyone know? At one time > > (e.g. 1930) the LV had its own station at Meeker Street (west of > > the junction at Hunter, I think, on its own line). > > > > As for the engine change at Manhattan Transfer, the 1930 public > > timetables seem to allow six minutes "dwell" time at Manhattan > > Transfer, with an overall running time New York to Newark of 23-24 > > minutes. (Many long distance trains did not even stop in Newark > > at that time; passengers were told to take the H&M from the old > > Park Place station, and catch their train at the Transfer.) > > > > I wonder if rules may have been different in that era; did they have > > to do a full brake test, for instance, after changing engines? > > > > John Bobsin > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 09:58:02 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Likelihood of new PRR steam in plastic My personal guess is that the best strategy for marketing plastic steam to satisfy the largest number of prospective buyers, is to make a basic drive and boiler with a wide variety of add on parts including different cabs. Then to use the skillful (and cheap) Chinese to assemble specific prototypes. This is already being done by Bachmann and P2K. The added feature I would like to see is to offer the undec version with all of the optional parts uninstalled so that fussy rivet counters like me can configure the engine any way we choose, so long as the boiler shape is correct. Since including all the optional tenders would probably be too big an expense, they could either offer several undecs, with different tenders, or offer the undec engine and tender separately. To keep us PRR fans happy, the boiler details would have to include add-on Belpaire hips for those boilers with an appropriate shape. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrew S. Miller" Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 13:53:23 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Tunnel Baffles A friend of mine told me last night of a trip he took a few years ago through the East River tunnels from Penn Station NY to Sunnyside. He had the chance to do this on the open platform of the observation car CARITAS. During the trip he noticed that every half mile or so there was a baffle or wall on the walkways along side of the track. These baffles had a door in them to allow the passage of someone walking the tunnel. The baffles were on both side walkways at the same place so as to seal off the tunnel when the train went through (doing a job on his ears!). Neither he nor I could determine what they were for. Our best guess is some form or fire control. Does anyone know what these baffles are for? -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Send FREE Holiday eCards from Yahoo! Greetings. http://us.click.yahoo.com/IgTaHA/ZQdDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 13:53:23 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Tunnel Baffles A friend of mine told me last night of a trip he took a few years ago through the East River tunnels from Penn Station NY to Sunnyside. He had the chance to do this on the open platform of the observation car CARITAS. During the trip he noticed that every half mile or so there was a baffle or wall on the walkways along side of the track. These baffles had a door in them to allow the passage of someone walking the tunnel. The baffles were on both side walkways at the same place so as to seal off the tunnel when the train went through (doing a job on his ears!). Neither he nor I could determine what they were for. Our best guess is some form or fire control. Does anyone know what these baffles are for? -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] M1a vs. M1-b Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 14:44:55 -0500 Hi All, I am looking through the NJ International M-1 book. I thought that the main visual spotting detail to distinguish the M-1a from the M-1b was the clean out plugs in the firebox. The book calls # 6704 (P. 102) an M-1a, but it has clean out plugs. Did the M-1a ever have clean out plugs? Please reply to billlane@snip.net Happy Holidays, Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 14:44:55 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] M1a vs. M1-b Hi All, I am looking through the NJ International M-1 book. I thought that the main visual spotting detail to distinguish the M-1a from the M-1b was the clean out plugs in the firebox. The book calls # 6704 (P. 102) an M-1a, but it has clean out plugs. Did the M-1a ever have clean out plugs? Please reply to billlane@snip.net Happy Holidays, Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRR5499@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] M1a vs. M1-b Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 22:22:34 +0000 Bill, On the list they have on which M-1bs were converted from M-1as #6704 is missing. It is an M-1b. There are also some K-4s that got new boilers and had the circulators installed. Ed Case > Hi All, > > I am looking through the NJ International M-1 book. I thought that the main > visual spotting detail to distinguish the M-1a from the M-1b was the clean > out plugs in the firebox. The book calls # 6704 (P. 102) an M-1a, but it > has clean out plugs. Did the M-1a ever have clean out plugs? > > Please reply to billlane@snip.net > > Happy Holidays, > > Bill > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mick" Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 10:48:22 +1100 Subject: [PRR] Season's Greetings Hi everyone, Its Christmas Day here and I thought that I'd drop a short note to wish all my fellow SPFs a Happy Christmas. May your stockings be filled with your favourite model! Best wishes, Mick Molloy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 11:40:21 +1100 From: "Mick Molloy" Subject: Re: [PRR] Season's Greetings Hi Ron, No snow here. Its summer!! I live in Melbourne, Australia. Current temp: about 22C, 3/10s cloud, light westerly breeze (< 5knots) Please, everyone, note the change of e-mail address. Old: pennsy@alphalink.com.au New: pennsy@optushome.com.au I've moved from dailup to cable. Regards to all, Mick *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 24/12/2001 at 4:18 PM Ron Dugas did electronicly scribble: >Hi Mick, > >Got Snow??? > >Seriously, a Very, Merry Christmas to you and yours. And a Happy and >Holy New Year. > >Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "WaltP" Subject: [PRR] B&O wagontop covered hoppers Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 13:52:09 -0500 Gentlemen, Doing a project which I have been meaning to do for quite sometime, namely kitbash a few covered hoppers for interchange service. The only problem is that I would love to get the curve right at the sidesheet/roof. Anybody know where that info may be available, or whom I may contact? A site offering "complete" drawings would be ideal. Seasons Greetings to All, Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 14:21:36 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Update to my Website and a question I have added the Northwestern Region Local General Arranged Freight Service to my website: http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/NORTHWESTERN_REGION.htm As I typing in the information and a question came to me. I noticed that there were two trains scheduled into and out of South Bend daily (except Sunday). One was LD-13/14 which was a Logansport to South Bend train and LD-21/22 which was a Plymouth to South Bend train. My question is how much business did Studebaker generate in South Bend for the Pennsy? In the notes section for LD-21/22 they made reference to "protect connections to GRE-2 and LCL-1, Studebaker's from South Bend". sounds like the South Bend Branch would make an interesting section of railroad to model. Regards, Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy Williamson Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 14:21:36 -0600 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Update to my Website and a question I have added the Northwestern Region Local General Arranged Freight Service to my website: http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/NORTHWESTERN_REGION.htm As I typing in the information and a question came to me. I noticed that there were two trains scheduled into and out of South Bend daily (except Sunday). One was LD-13/14 which was a Logansport to South Bend train and LD-21/22 which was a Plymouth to South Bend train. My question is how much business did Studebaker generate in South Bend for the Pennsy? In the notes section for LD-21/22 they made reference to "protect connections to GRE-2 and LCL-1, Studebaker's from South Bend". sounds like the South Bend Branch would make an interesting section of railroad to model. Regards, Randy ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Send FREE Holiday eCards from Yahoo! Greetings. http://us.click.yahoo.com/IgTaHA/ZQdDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: hanel29@att.net Subject: [PRR] Happy Holidays and Thanks Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 03:16:33 +0000 This comes at about the end of my first year sitting in on this chat group. I just want to wish all of you a Happy Holiday season and thank you for the most pleasant of times as I read your back-and forth dialog on the history and modelling of the PRR. As a youngster, (late twenties, early thirties) I lived near and often visited Frankford Junction in North Philadelphia. You guys have brought back a lot of wonderful memories for me! Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, and may God bless you all! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 22:29:23 -0500 From: Hiroe Subject: [PRR] Ore Jennies... Seeing as how I've been increasingly dissatisfied with the atlas ore jennies in N scale, I decided to scratchbuild a master for the PRR style jennies, with the intention of casting up a few hundred off of it. So my query is twofold: First, I'm trying to compile a decent source of proto info, so as to be sure how the real cars were put together. I'm looking for decent photos, either color or B&W, from as many angles as possible. I've already picked through the PRR Freight Car info page, as well as the Conrail Cyclopedia; with not much luck in locating decent close-up shots, particularly at the 45 and top views. Second, I'm wondering how many other people would be interested in PRR-style ore jennies in N-scale. If there's enough interest, I may try producing them in greater quantities. Thanks! --Hiroe NEC-trak, Philly Electrified Division following N-trak guidelines. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] B&O wagontop covered hoppers Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 22:37:30 -0500 Walt, is there a specific reason you are doing this kitbash, is it in HO? I ask because Central Hobby Supply in Syracuse sells Resin Kits for these cars. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: "WaltP" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2001 1:52 PM Subject: [PRR] B&O wagontop covered hoppers > Gentlemen, > Doing a project which I have been meaning to do for quite sometime, namely > kitbash a few covered hoppers for interchange service. The only problem is > that I would love to get the curve right at the sidesheet/roof. Anybody know > where that info may be available, or whom I may contact? A site offering > "complete" drawings would be ideal. > > Seasons Greetings to All, > Walt Prusick > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Ore Jennies... Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 10:05:39 -0500 Terry and Listers, At one point Middle Division was suppose to be working on the ore jennies after the P85 was finished. as we all know the P85 died. I do not know how far along they were with the ore jennies. Speaking of the P85, at last years Springfield show desPlaines hobbies said they would have the P85 (the resurrected middle division one) out by the National Train Show. Anyone know what happen to it or did it die a second time? Chris Chany Terry Stuart wrote: Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore Jennies... Your inquiry concerned PRR ore jennies in N scale prompts me to ask about any possible progress with HO scale versions of same. I'm "out of the loop" in terms of efforts to produce such a car. I do recall some planning and even pre-production models, however. Can anyone on the List bring me up to date as to whether or not an HO scale PRR ore jenny is either already available, or may in fact see the light of day any time soon? I'm thinking beyond the MDC offering. Thanks in advance to anyone who responds. Terry Stuart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 10:15:01 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore Jennies... From: Jerry Britton On 12/26/01 10:05 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > At one point Middle Division was suppose to be working on the ore jennies > after the P85 was finished. as we all know the P85 died. I do not know how > far along they were with the ore jennies. Speaking of the P85, at last > years Springfield show desPlaines hobbies said they would have the P85 (the > resurrected middle division one) out by the National Train Show. Anyone know > what happen to it or did it die a second time? > The N scale P85 made it out, but I don't know the status of the HO version. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Update to my Website and a question Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 10:35:52 -0600 The branch also hosted special passenger movements for the Notre Dame football games. -----Original Message----- From: Randy Williamson [mailto:pennsy@vbe.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2001 2:22 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRR@yahoogroups.com; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] Update to my Website and a question I have added the Northwestern Region Local General Arranged Freight Service to my website: http://www.randsrailstuff.net/PennsylvaniaRailroadFreightSchedules/NORTHWEST ERN_REGION.htm As I typing in the information and a question came to me. I noticed that there were two trains scheduled into and out of South Bend daily (except Sunday). One was LD-13/14 which was a Logansport to South Bend train and LD-21/22 which was a Plymouth to South Bend train. My question is how much business did Studebaker generate in South Bend for the Pennsy? In the notes section for LD-21/22 they made reference to "protect connections to GRE-2 and LCL-1, Studebaker's from South Bend". sounds like the South Bend Branch would make an interesting section of railroad to model. Regards, Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 08:40:05 -0800 (PST) From: CHUCK S Subject: [PRR] Funeral Train/RFK On ESPN 12/25 there was a show on dick schapp who passed away and was a friend of RFK. ther was some footage of the train to D.C. . Is the consist # for this train adviable ?. Second part of the ? do any of the cars AHM/IHC/Riverossi/Walthers fill the bill. Are any of these cars close to any PRR proto cars tia chuck s. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 12:29:51 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Funeral Train/RFK I don't recall the exact consist, but I believe that a B-60 baggage car (ECW) and a Z74 business car (ECW or Bachmann "Observation") were at the front and rear of the train. My guess for the rest of the train would be Congo parlor cars which Walthers is about to release (they call them "lounges" like Amtrak did). Oh yes, and a GG-1 Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== CHUCK S wrote: > On ESPN 12/25 there was a show on dick schapp who > passed away and was a friend of RFK. ther was some > footage of the train to D.C. . Is the consist # for > this train adviable ?. Second part of the ? do any of > the cars AHM/IHC/Riverossi/Walthers fill the bill. Are > any of these cars close to any PRR proto cars tia > chuck s. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 12:47:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Funeral Train/RFK From: Jerry Britton On 12/26/01 12:29 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > I don't recall the exact consist, but I believe that a B-60 baggage car > (ECW) and a Z74 business car (ECW or Bachmann "Observation") were at the > front and rear of the train. My guess for the rest of the train would be > Congo parlor cars which Walthers is about to release (they call them > "lounges" like Amtrak did). Oh yes, and a GG-1 > I could be mistaken, but didn't Bennett Levin's PRR #120, the "Pennsylvania", bring up the rear, carrying the casket? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 13:06:48 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Funeral Train/RFK From: aurora7@juno.com Let me understand this...you are modeling the RFK Funeral train? I guess as a historical piece it would be a unique thing to run as a consist on specific anniversaries, but I guess there is something about it that I have difficulties with. I suppose it's no worse than modeling the limosine that his elder brother was gunned down in. As I recall, there were two GG-1's, both freshly repainted in PC gloss black on the point. I also remember several spectators who stepped out in front of a second passing train and became casulties that day. This is not a negative criticism, just a response. The Kennedy family showed a great deal of class in having the body the moved to Washington in that manner. It was very statesman-like. Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "I've had a wonderful evening, unfortunately, this wasn't it". -Groucho ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 13:35:27 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Funeral Train/RFK 120 the PENNSYLVANIA was a Z74. The mods necessary would be to change to a balloon roof and mount "Commonwealth" trucks. I did this to an ECW car to produce QUAKER CITY. AFAIK PENNSYLVANIA was the President's car, and QUAKER CITY was assigned to the Chairman of the Board. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > On 12/26/01 12:29 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > > > I don't recall the exact consist, but I believe that a B-60 baggage car > > (ECW) and a Z74 business car (ECW or Bachmann "Observation") were at the > > front and rear of the train. My guess for the rest of the train would be > > Congo parlor cars which Walthers is about to release (they call them > > "lounges" like Amtrak did). Oh yes, and a GG-1 > > > I could be mistaken, but didn't Bennett Levin's PRR #120, the > "Pennsylvania", bring up the rear, carrying the casket? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] Escape from XMAS ( T1 completed at last ) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 18:39:11 -0000 Seasons greetings to everyone. One of the hidden benefits of our great hobby at this time of year is in providing a sanctuary away from the brain damage brought on by over-indulgence, visiting family, rubbish TV and the Xmas commercialisation nightmare. Thankfully, there's always a long list of modelling 'Getroundtuits' in the Wright household. So after some 18 months after the initial work was begun and 'shelved' ...... a Bowser - GEM hybrid T1 4-4-4-4 is now complete bar painting, lining, decals and weathering. My excuse for the long delay was the sheer number of modifications involved ...... it's much easier to get sidetracked on to easier tasks ( such as building Proto 87 layouts :-) is it not? Anway, if you are interested, the photos are on the usual site: http://www.xclent.clara.net Click on the 'HO Model Locomotives' button, then the Pennsy herald and go on from there. Regards, John H. Wright, Washington, England. Web sites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and http://www.xclent.clara.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 13:55:24 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Funeral Train/RFK From: Jerry Britton On 12/26/01 1:35 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > 120 the PENNSYLVANIA was a Z74. The mods necessary would be to change to a > balloon roof and mount "Commonwealth" trucks. I did this to an ECW car to > produce QUAKER CITY. AFAIK PENNSYLVANIA was the President's car, and QUAKER > CITY was assigned to the Chairman of the Board. > If you do not wish to kitbash a specific car, and you really want to model this train as close to prototype as possible, you might consider the line of brass Z74's coming from Rail Classics this year. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: [PRR] RFK Funeral Train Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 13:05:03 -0600 I seem to recall that Trains had the complete consist a in the issue a month or two after the event. I will try to look it up tonight when I get home. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson) Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 14:31:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Funeral Train/RFK Trains magazine did a big article about the RFK Funeral train. I guess it would be in a 1968-69 issue. I will look for the issue in my collection. The consist of the train is in that issue. A news helicopter followed the train out of NYC and got some great shots of the clean Penn Central GG1s. My Mom and Dad saw the train in Philly. By then, the RFK train was only doing about 20mph because of people all over the mainline. PC stopped all trains because three people were killed looking out for the RFK train and being hit by other trains on the mainline in New Jersey. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Funeral Train/RFK Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 13:38:22 -0600 The deaths occurred at Elizabeth on the infamous S curve. People moved out onto the east bound track for a better look at the station and an eastbound local passenger hit them. As I recall it was a set of MP54's but I could be wrong. Norm Bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Hopson" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 1:31 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Funeral Train/RFK > > Trains magazine did a big article about the RFK Funeral train. I > guess it would be in a 1968-69 issue. I will look for the issue in my > collection. The consist of the train is in that issue. > A news helicopter followed the train out of NYC and got some great > shots of the clean Penn Central GG1s. My Mom and Dad saw the train in > Philly. By then, the RFK train was only doing about 20mph because of > people all over the mainline. PC stopped all trains because three people > were killed looking out for the RFK train and being hit by other trains > on the mainline in New Jersey. > Dave > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 15:04:31 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: [PRR] P2K Heritage 2-8-8-2 (HH-1) Headlights Hello all: I wanted to post a warning as I recently found out from Life Like customer service that the headlights that ship with this locomotive are NOT suitable for use with a DCC system. According to LL, these bulbs should be replaced with 12V bulbs which are less than 40 milliamps. LL does not have these bulbs available and suggests ordering replacements through Walthers. They said that the paragraph describing this was "accidently omitted" from the manual. Another alternative would be to add resistors to the yellow and white DCC wires. Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 15:23:37 -0500 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] Funeral Train/RFK Jerry Britton wrote: > > On 12/26/01 12:29 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > > > I don't recall the exact consist, but I believe that a B-60 baggage car > > (ECW) and a Z74 business car (ECW or Bachmann "Observation") were at the > > front and rear of the train. My guess for the rest of the train would be > > Congo parlor cars which Walthers is about to release (they call them > > "lounges" like Amtrak did). Oh yes, and a GG-1 > > > I could be mistaken, but didn't Bennett Levin's PRR #120, the > "Pennsylvania", bring up the rear, carrying the casket? It was the 120 car. At one time, we had a picture up at the PRRT&HS website of the #120 carrying RFK's casket southbound from NYC with Ethel Kennedy sitting on the platform along with family and friends. Steve might still have the picture in the archives. Happy New Year, Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 13:04:36 -0800 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Funeral Train/RFK Hi Andy, All, "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > > ...My guess for the rest of the train would be Congo parlor cars... That was probably my first major railfan experience and I'm going completely from my dim memory of sitting on a hill by a small yard in Baltimore as a young teen and watching it go through so could be in error but I seem to remember that the whole consist was heavyweights. I don't remember any "silver" cars so wonder about the congos? I want to say that the whole train may have been painted black? Is that possible? I was a newbie railfan and didn't know much at the time, and it was a long time ago, so could be way off base. I did remember the two black GG1s, however. It was a sad day. Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: [PRR] RFK Funeral Train Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 15:24:35 -0600 Technically The train was a PC operation and both G's had the PC logo. News coverage called them everything imaginable including steam and diesel engines. I can remember Walter Cronkhite stumbling over what to call them. Cars may have been repainted to PC logo for the most part. It certainly was a lot of publicity for PC and they did put forth a valiant effort. There were protection engines run ahead of the train and two G's was overkill on the train itself. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore Jennies... Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 17:46:00 -0500 Haven't seen this posted yet but F&C makes resin G39/G39a Ore Jennies in HO kit # 6430-1 12.00 each Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chany, Christopher" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 10:05 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Ore Jennies... > Terry and Listers, > > At one point Middle Division was suppose to be working on the ore jennies > after the P85 was finished. as we all know the P85 died. I do not know how > far along they were with the ore jennies. Speaking of the P85, at last > years Springfield show desPlaines hobbies said they would have the P85 (the > resurrected middle division one) out by the National Train Show. Anyone know > what happen to it or did it die a second time? > > Chris Chany > > > Terry Stuart wrote: > Subject: Re: [PRR] Ore Jennies... > > > Your inquiry concerned PRR ore jennies in N scale prompts me to ask about > any possible progress with HO scale versions of same. I'm "out of the loop" > in terms of efforts to produce such a car. I do recall some planning and > even pre-production models, however. > > Can anyone on the List bring me up to date as to whether or not an HO scale > PRR ore jenny is either already available, or may in fact see the light of > day any time soon? > > I'm thinking beyond the MDC offering. > > Thanks in advance to anyone who responds. > > Terry Stuart > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 19:50:55 -0500 From: "H.&S." Subject: [PRR] RFK trains Hello all... I remember watching these trains. I say trains as there was a four car pilot train that ran ahead of the other one. (goes to show the influence the Kennedy's had then). This was the summer before my dad went to work for PC. The pilot train had a GG-1 and four cars (mostly coaches) as i recall. About five mins later the funeral train followed with both G's and about 8-10 cars. There were Tuscan, Dark Green and stainless cars in the consist. These trains were manned by guys from the extra passenger lists who later worked with dad. They were handled somewhat like a POTUS movement from what dad found out later. We saw them just south of the Chase,Md. crossing near the BG&E power plant spur on a curve between Chase and Benges. One of my younger brothers has a tape with footage of these trains. It shows footage in N.J. and also crossing either the Bush or Gunpowder river bridges. I recall also finding a broken coupler knuckle near the tracks (in the unfenced,oh so railfan friendly PC days) and carrying it to the car and home at the young age of 11. My dad did'nt understand what the heck i wanted with it,but let me take it home anyway. There were also about 8 to a dozen other folks there watching with us that day. We later saw some of the CBS Cronkite footage on the TV when we got home. I recall them showing the tracks shot from the end of the train (possibly from the pilot train?). Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Tom Kane Subject: RE: [PRR] P2K Heritage 2-8-8-2 (HH-1) Headlights Date: Wed, 26 Dec 2001 20:24:57 -0800 I have installed a Soundtraxx DSD-100LC successfully in the HH-1 without changing the bulbs nor adding resistors. I was surprised that they worked, but they seem to be fine. Thomas M. Kane Consulting Systems Engineer Hitachi Data Systems Phone: 703-481-4273 FAX: 509-695-2591 Email: Tom.Kane@hds.com -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Warner [mailto:jeffrywarner@suscom.net] Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 3:05 PM Cc: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] P2K Heritage 2-8-8-2 (HH-1) Headlights Hello all: I wanted to post a warning as I recently found out from Life Like customer service that the headlights that ship with this locomotive are NOT suitable for use with a DCC system. According to LL, these bulbs should be replaced with 12V bulbs which are less than 40 milliamps. LL does not have these bulbs available and suggests ordering replacements through Walthers. They said that the paragraph describing this was "accidently omitted" from the manual. Another alternative would be to add resistors to the yellow and white DCC wires. Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] RFK trains Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 07:45:11 -0600 I don't believe it had anything at all to do with the Kennedy influence. It had to do with the national exposure of the PC. I don't think they wanted anything to go wrong with millions watching on TV. Can you imagine the public reaction to a breakdown or derailment. Most important trains are protected. The PRR had crews and engines assigned at various locations as protection power for the Blue Ribbon Fleet. Maybe if it was the New Haven they would have had influence but not on the PC. ----- Original Message ----- From: "H.&S." To: "Prr-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 6:50 PM Subject: [PRR] RFK trains > Hello all... > > I remember watching these trains. I say trains as there was > a four car pilot train that ran ahead of the other one. > (goes to show the influence the Kennedy's had then). > This was the summer before my dad went to work for > PC. The pilot train had a GG-1 and four cars (mostly coaches) > as i recall. About five mins later the funeral train followed > with both G's and about 8-10 cars. There were Tuscan, > Dark Green and stainless cars in the consist. These trains > were manned by guys from the extra passenger lists > who later worked with dad. They were handled somewhat > like a POTUS movement from what dad found out later. We saw them > just south of the Chase,Md. crossing near the BG&E power > plant spur on a curve between Chase and Benges. > > One of my younger brothers has a tape with footage > of these trains. It shows footage in N.J. and also > crossing either the Bush or Gunpowder river bridges. > > I recall also finding a broken coupler knuckle near the > tracks (in the unfenced,oh so railfan friendly PC days) and > carrying it to the car and home at the young age of > 11. My dad did'nt understand what the heck i wanted > with it,but let me take it home anyway. There were also > about 8 to a dozen other folks there watching with us > that day. We later saw some of the CBS Cronkite > footage on the TV when we got home. I recall > them showing the tracks shot from the end of the > train (possibly from the pilot train?). > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 09:26:21 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] RFK trains Well then, to return to the original request for appropriate available HO models. If they were running HW coaches they would undoubtedly have been P70FBRs. These are available from ECW. Use the ones with the balloon roof. If they were running stainless steel coaches, Congo coaches are not available (not available yet! are you listening, Walthers?) However they could also have been PRR Florida pool cars. In which case the new 52 seat Walthers coach is a fit. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "H.&S." wrote: > Hello all... > > I remember watching these trains. I say trains as there was > a four car pilot train that ran ahead of the other one. > (goes to show the influence the Kennedy's had then). > This was the summer before my dad went to work for > PC. The pilot train had a GG-1 and four cars (mostly coaches) > as i recall. About five mins later the funeral train followed > with both G's and about 8-10 cars. There were Tuscan, > Dark Green and stainless cars in the consist. These trains > were manned by guys from the extra passenger lists > who later worked with dad. They were handled somewhat > like a POTUS movement from what dad found out later. We saw them > just south of the Chase,Md. crossing near the BG&E power > plant spur on a curve between Chase and Benges. > > One of my younger brothers has a tape with footage > of these trains. It shows footage in N.J. and also > crossing either the Bush or Gunpowder river bridges. > > I recall also finding a broken coupler knuckle near the > tracks (in the unfenced,oh so railfan friendly PC days) and > carrying it to the car and home at the young age of > 11. My dad did'nt understand what the heck i wanted > with it,but let me take it home anyway. There were also > about 8 to a dozen other folks there watching with us > that day. We later saw some of the CBS Cronkite > footage on the TV when we got home. I recall > them showing the tracks shot from the end of the > train (possibly from the pilot train?). > > Til Later > Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 09:31:47 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] RFK trains Maybe if it was the NH, it would have broken down ;-) Norm Bell wrote: > I don't believe it had anything at all to do with the Kennedy influence. It > had to do with the national exposure of the PC. I don't think they wanted > anything to go wrong with millions watching on TV. Can you imagine the > public reaction to a breakdown or derailment. Most important trains are > protected. The PRR had crews and engines assigned at various locations as > protection power for the Blue Ribbon Fleet. Maybe if it was the New Haven > they would have had influence but not on the PC. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Anderson Charles L CRPH Subject: RE: [PRR] RFK trains Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:05:42 -0500 Seems to me that all comments regarding the RFK Funeral Train are from those that are quite young... In any event, a tragedy did occur at Elizabeth, NJ when the special struck and killed a woman observer that got in the way of the train at speed. The trains speed was substantially reduced to less than 50 MPH for the balance of the journey to Washington, DC Thousands lined the ROW. The closest similar event that brought out the general public was in 1959 when the Reading ran its first T-1 powered "Rail Ramble" with 2124.... Bennett Levin's "Northern Express" saw many town folk line the rails west of Harrisburg, PA. It was not unusual for PRR to operate both pilot trains and protect engines along the NEC... it was standard operating procedure for the annual Army-Navy Football Specials -----Original Message----- From: Norm Bell [mailto:nbell@repco.com] Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 8:45 AM To: Prr-Talk; H.&S. Subject: Re: [PRR] RFK trains I don't believe it had anything at all to do with the Kennedy influence. It had to do with the national exposure of the PC. I don't think they wanted anything to go wrong with millions watching on TV. Can you imagine the public reaction to a breakdown or derailment. Most important trains are protected. The PRR had crews and engines assigned at various locations as protection power for the Blue Ribbon Fleet. Maybe if it was the New Haven they would have had influence but not on the PC. ----- Original Message ----- From: "H.&S." To: "Prr-Talk" Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 6:50 PM Subject: [PRR] RFK trains > Hello all... > > I remember watching these trains. I say trains as there was > a four car pilot train that ran ahead of the other one. > (goes to show the influence the Kennedy's had then). > This was the summer before my dad went to work for > PC. The pilot train had a GG-1 and four cars (mostly coaches) > as i recall. About five mins later the funeral train followed > with both G's and about 8-10 cars. There were Tuscan, > Dark Green and stainless cars in the consist. These trains > were manned by guys from the extra passenger lists > who later worked with dad. They were handled somewhat > like a POTUS movement from what dad found out later. We saw them > just south of the Chase,Md. crossing near the BG&E power > plant spur on a curve between Chase and Benges. > > One of my younger brothers has a tape with footage > of these trains. It shows footage in N.J. and also > crossing either the Bush or Gunpowder river bridges. > > I recall also finding a broken coupler knuckle near the > tracks (in the unfenced,oh so railfan friendly PC days) and > carrying it to the car and home at the young age of > 11. My dad did'nt understand what the heck i wanted > with it,but let me take it home anyway. There were also > about 8 to a dozen other folks there watching with us > that day. We later saw some of the CBS Cronkite > footage on the TV when we got home. I recall > them showing the tracks shot from the end of the > train (possibly from the pilot train?). > > Til Later > Hank Mummert > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Funeral Train/RFK Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 09:28:55 -0600 My understanding of the casualties of that event was that people climbed on to the roofs of trains on adjacent tracks and elctrocuted themselves. Until this even PC did not clear the corridor of other trains, which were simply stopped as the funueral train passed. Also PC had a pilot train that ran in front of, and on the same track as the actual train. The entire consist is given in Trains magazine, published shortly after the event. The train was also covered on National TV and did not receive good publicity. Henry Reasonor called passenger trains an anachronism. -----Original Message----- From: aurora7@juno.com [mailto:aurora7@juno.com] Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 12:07 PM To: asmiller@mitre.org Cc: cmsim47@yahoo.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Funeral Train/RFK Let me understand this...you are modeling the RFK Funeral train? I guess as a historical piece it would be a unique thing to run as a consist on specific anniversaries, but I guess there is something about it that I have difficulties with. I suppose it's no worse than modeling the limosine that his elder brother was gunned down in. As I recall, there were two GG-1's, both freshly repainted in PC gloss black on the point. I also remember several spectators who stepped out in front of a second passing train and became casulties that day. This is not a negative criticism, just a response. The Kennedy family showed a great deal of class in having the body the moved to Washington in that manner. It was very statesman-like. Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "I've had a wonderful evening, unfortunately, this wasn't it". -Groucho ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] RFK trains Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 09:38:24 -0600 I think the train did experience mechanical problems. And the trains were late according to whatever schedule was devised for them. The deaths of bystanders was certainly not good publicity for the railroad. After that occurred, all other trains on the corridor were halted when the Kennedy's threatened to stop the procedure. My general impression from watching the procession on TV was that the movement was a public relations disaster for the railroad. -----Original Message----- From: Andrew S. Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 8:32 AM To: Norm Bell Cc: Prr-Talk; H.&S. Subject: Re: [PRR] RFK trains Maybe if it was the NH, it would have broken down ;-) Norm Bell wrote: > I don't believe it had anything at all to do with the Kennedy influence. It > had to do with the national exposure of the PC. I don't think they wanted > anything to go wrong with millions watching on TV. Can you imagine the > public reaction to a breakdown or derailment. Most important trains are > protected. The PRR had crews and engines assigned at various locations as > protection power for the Blue Ribbon Fleet. Maybe if it was the New Haven > they would have had influence but not on the PC. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: [PRR] RFK Funeral train Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 09:52:31 -0600 There is a lot of misinformation being passed around from my recollections: 1. The people killed were definitely struck by a northbound train at Elisabeth and not electrocuted 2. The train experienced no mechanical delays. The delays were because of the legnthened timetable to arrive in DC 3. Train speed was dropped after consultation with the Kennedy family. The funeral was a typical well scripted Kennedy event and it was imperative that the train arrive in DC in time to allow coverage of the interment at Arlington. As I recall the delays prevented this. 4. All trains were stopped to prevent other tragedies. there were a lot of people that know even less than some railfans at trackside. More people saw a GG1 that day then probably before or since. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 11:19:26 -0500 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: Re: [PRR] RFK trains Concerning the Kennedy influence on the PC and the Nation, at this time it was quite extensive. The 1963 assassination of JFK was still fresh in everyone's mind, RFK would undoubtedly been elected president had he not been murdered. The PC handled this special movement with extraordinary precaution similar to POTUS Train moves, in deference to the Kennedy Family's stature at that time. The special did not strike a spectator on the Elizabeth curve. Eastbound train # 50 the Admiral from Chicago was the train involved. Subsequently, the PC in a then unprecedented manner shut down the NY -Washington Main Line until the Kennedy Special and the public were clear of each respective portion. The Special's train speed was also reduced in deference to the crowds. The freight train I was working was held at Perryville for about 6 hours until the train passed, and my fireman's seat view of the Specials from Ostego St. crossing was limited, but unforgettable. Joe Witcofsky ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anderson Charles L CRPH" To: "'Norm Bell'" ; "Prr-Talk" ; "H.&S." Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 10:05 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] RFK trains > Seems to me that all comments regarding the RFK Funeral Train are from those that are quite young... > > In any event, a tragedy did occur at Elizabeth, NJ when the special struck and killed a woman observer that got in the way of the train at speed. The trains speed was substantially reduced to less than 50 MPH for the balance of the journey to Washington, DC Thousands lined the ROW. The closest similar event that brought out the general public was in 1959 when the Reading ran its first T-1 powered "Rail Ramble" with 2124.... Bennett Levin's "Northern Express" saw many town folk line the rails west of Harrisburg, PA. > > It was not unusual for PRR to operate both pilot trains and protect engines along the NEC... it was standard operating procedure for the annual Army-Navy Football Specials > > -----Original Message----- > From: Norm Bell [mailto:nbell@repco.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2001 8:45 AM > To: Prr-Talk; H.&S. > Subject: Re: [PRR] RFK trains > > I don't believe it had anything at all to do with the Kennedy influence. It > had to do with the national exposure of the PC. I don't think they wanted > anything to go wrong with millions watching on TV. Can you imagine the > public reaction to a breakdown or derailment. Most important trains are > protected. The PRR had crews and engines assigned at various locations as > protection power for the Blue Ribbon Fleet. Maybe if it was the New Haven > they would have had influence but not on the PC. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "H.&S." > To: "Prr-Talk" > Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 6:50 PM > Subject: [PRR] RFK trains > > > > Hello all... > > > > I remember watching these trains. I say trains as there was > > a four car pilot train that ran ahead of the other one. > > (goes to show the influence the Kennedy's had then). > > This was the summer before my dad went to work for > > PC. The pilot train had a GG-1 and four cars (mostly coaches) > > as i recall. About five mins later the funeral train followed > > with both G's and about 8-10 cars. There were Tuscan, > > Dark Green and stainless cars in the consist. These trains > > were manned by guys from the extra passenger lists > > who later worked with dad. They were handled somewhat > > like a POTUS movement from what dad found out later. We saw them > > just south of the Chase,Md. crossing near the BG&E power > > plant spur on a curve between Chase and Benges. > > > > One of my younger brothers has a tape with footage > > of these trains. It shows footage in N.J. and also > > crossing either the Bush or Gunpowder river bridges. > > > > I recall also finding a broken coupler knuckle near the > > tracks (in the unfenced,oh so railfan friendly PC days) and > > carrying it to the car and home at the young age of > > 11. My dad did'nt understand what the heck i wanted > > with it,but let me take it home anyway. There were also > > about 8 to a dozen other folks there watching with us > > that day. We later saw some of the CBS Cronkite > > footage on the TV when we got home. I recall > > them showing the tracks shot from the end of the > > train (possibly from the pilot train?). > > > > Til Later > > Hank Mummert > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 14:03:39 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Volunteers to Scan Documents? From: Jerry Britton Do you... have a scanner? have a collection of PRR documents? And you don't... have a layout to spend time on? have or want to have your own web site? I would be interested in hearing from folks who have PRR documents (ETT's, PTT's, operations brochures, manuals, annual reports, etc.) who would be willing to scan them in and process them for distribution via "Keystone Crossings" for all to access. Full credit is given to the originator. The process is... 1) Scan each page at 300dpi. Save as EPS. 2) Distill EPS files using Adobe Acrobat Distiller. This makes single-page PDF's. Use Distiller default settings. 3) Rejoin pages into book similar to original document. 4) Forward to me electronically. I have plenty of capacity on my servers, just not enough time! I already have a three box backlog of material to scan. Tonight or tomorrow I will be posting a 1900 edition of the CT1000. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: [PRR] Compound Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:15:11 -0000 I have just purchased a postcard with a De Glehn Compound No: 2512 on it. Does anyone have any information on this locomotive?? many thanks Patrick Grace ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: [PRR] Funaro & Camerlengo Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:21:42 -0000 I was wondering about purchasing a Funaro & Camerlengo, kit for a LV "wrong way" box car. But before I buy I would like to know what your opinions of Funaro & Camerlengo kits; in terms of ease of assembly and value for money. many thanks and Happy New Year Patrick Grace ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] Gondola Class Question Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:06:32 -0500 On page 47, and the rear cover of Pennsy Steam Years Volume 3 (Gift from Santa) there is a photo of a PRR Gondola above the I1. The gondola appears to be a G29 class car. (Based on panel count, lettering arrangement, tight ends) It has extensions on either end. I am wondering what those extensions are for. One speculation I have is they are for autoframes, but I am not certain. Can anyone confirm the gondola class and the use of the extensions. The photo is dated July 24, 1954. Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "aidrian.bridgeman-sutton" Subject: Re: [PRR] Compound Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 05:17:22 -0000 > I have just purchased a postcard with a De Glehn Compound No: 2512 on it. > Does anyone have any information on this locomotive?? > Patrick Grace Like many railway companies around the world the Pennsy had heard glowing reports of the performance of the de Glehn compounds on the Nord in france. They were built in the early 1900s and were four cylinder compounds with divided drive. They were wonderfully fast and economical engines in their native environment. The PRR bought a sample, but quickly found, like the GWR in the UK, that what worked in France didn't work as well under more primitive conditions than they experienced at home. "Primitive" isn't intended as a reflection on the PRR or GWR, but French railways were unique in that their drivers were trained in the workshops before becoming drivers, and knew how to get the best out of these engines - they were allocated a specific engine which was essentially their personal engine and even accompanied it to the shops for overhauls. When they were expected to work hard with relatively unskilled engineers and firemen they didn't perform up to expectations. They were also rather lightly constructed , which led the GWR's Chief Mechanical Engineer to remark that the valve gear was "watchmaker's work". However in France the de Gehn principles were continually developed and refinded and compounds were built there long after the enthusiasm for compounding had passed elsewhere. The divided drive principle was used elsewhere for many four cylinder classes, and New Zealand Railways even managed to shoehorn a full set of HP cylinders between the frames on 3'6" gauge on their A class de Glehn pacifics Aren't they elegant looking engines? Aidrian ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 03:02:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] RFK trains From: "M. E Allen" Without a consist in front of me but having been on the platform at Princeton Junction along with several friends including the crew of the PJ&B - My recollection is that the train was composed primarily of stainless coaches in assorted PC lettering schemes with a Tuscan twin-unit diner (with PC lettering (?)) and the 120. I was disappointed. Except for the diner and the obs it really looked like a refugee from clocker service. Mike Allen ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 06:33:21 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Dispatcher Sheet From: Jerry Britton Thanks to Dave Hopson, there is a now a Dispatcher Sheet from the Philadelphia Division (1/17/1959) posted on Keystone Crossing. This ledger page, maintained by the divisional dispatcher, records the passing of all trains past all towers on the division. It also records each trains' head-end power, number of cars, and tonnage. Also, the weather. Thanks, Dave, your original will be mailed back on Monday. The file may be downloaded from http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/ --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "WaltP" Subject: [PRR] B&O wagontop covered hoppers Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 07:18:58 -0500 Brian, I came across an article devoted to kitbashing the above in N scale and figured I could use a few in interchange service. Looking over the possible methods I could employ in HO, I thought that I could marry the round top from a Roundhouse round roof boxcar to the body of a Roundhouse 2 bay covered hopper, using chartpak for the ribs. However if a kit is available, I would prefer to go that route. Please pass on Central HobbySupply's e-mail address so that I may order a few. Thanks. BTW I attempted to respond sooner, but my mail deamon returned the e-mail to me. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RTSILLER@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 07:58:54 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Compound --part1_9a.1e9e4042.295dc68e_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There was a five-page story in the Winter 2000 Keystone on the De Glehn Atlantic. The centerspread was a nice painting of the engine. Rick --part1_9a.1e9e4042.295dc68e_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There was a five-page story in the Winter 2000 Keystone on the De Glehn Atlantic.  The centerspread was a nice painting of the engine.

Rick
--part1_9a.1e9e4042.295dc68e_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 09:02:36 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Funaro & Camerlengo F&C are among my favorite resin makers, but primarily because they make nice models of cars in my era. They have gone through substantial design improvements in their kits over the last five years or so. The newer kits have one piece bodies and are made of a very nice white resin. Its very flexible and almost behaves like styrene. Their older kits (stuff you might find lying on the dealers shelves) are often very brittle. The biggest (and universal) complaint about F&C is their instructions. You will get a nice drawing of the car from some major magazine (with appropriate copyright notices adhered to), and instructions which tell you to, in effect, "buy the kit, build the kit, and paint the kit", and not much more. Be prepared to either guess a lot or do some research in books and old magazine (and on the web) for photos of the prototype, depending on how much detail you are used to on your models. Perhaps I am being unfair to F&C since they are unfortunately compared to Westerfield, whose instructions are at the other end of the scale. Al W writes a doctoral thesis on the history of the car and how to build the kit along with lots of construction photos. Curiously, Westerfield never provides plans! Bottom line is: nice kits, nice plans, poor instructions. I anxiously await their remake of the PRR H30 covered hopper and the LIRR double deckers. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== pgrace wrote: > I was wondering about purchasing a Funaro & Camerlengo, kit for a LV "wrong > way" box car. But before I buy I would like to know what your opinions of > Funaro & Camerlengo kits; in terms of ease of assembly and value for money. > > many thanks and Happy New Year > > Patrick Grace ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports UPDATE Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 18:37:52 +0000 PRR Gize: I just checked Broadway Limited Imports web site. After producing the NYC J-1, BLI is planning on coming out with the following engines Drum roll please.......................... 1. PRR M-1 (the 6775 is shown) 2. N&W J-1 (the 607 is shown) Please check out their web site when you have time. http://www.broadway-limited.com Ted Andrews cub reporter :P _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 19:07:27 EST From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports UPDATE Gize, I am not sure that you will see the N&W J-1. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports UPDATE Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 19:11:53 -0500 Greg would that be due to the retooling of the Bachman one or another reason. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 7:07 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports UPDATE > Gize, > > I am not sure that you will see the N&W J-1. > > Greg Martin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 18:24:40 -0600 From: Greg Johnson Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports UPDATE Greg, Do you think we will see the M1? Regards, Greg Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 6:07 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports UPDATE > Gize, > > I am not sure that you will see the N&W J-1. > > Greg Martin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 22:13:39 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Imports UPDATE Yes, Virginia (Greg) there is a Pennsy God... And you will get an M1a in plastic... Greg Martin greg1950@swbell.net writes: << Greg, Do you think we will see the M1? Regards, Greg Johnson >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 22:25:05 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Smartaleck Strikes! --part1_13e.6f13725.295e9191_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List, Had a minor league brainstorm (a.k.a. modeling prank) last week. A lone PRR PA (Proto 2000 heritage) effortlessly pulled forty-one passenger cars around the NMRA's Sunrise Div. (Aurora, Colorado) modular layout last night. Twenty-two of the cars were Walthers Budd cars with the rest being re-trucked Rivarossi, Con-Cor, Athearn and a few brass. When asked what was done to the loco to make it pull that many cars, I simple answered that it was a Pennsy loco and not a mere Santa Fe, Rio Grande, Burlington or Union Pacific loco doinng the pulling. Yes, this got "that durn easterner is up to somehting foul" comment! The club electrician was checking the current meter and felt it had to be an instrument motor and weight in the loco. This feat left them scratching their heads. They wanted to confiscate the loco for examination but it was disassembled before their eyes to show there was nothing mystic under the shell. Ah, yes, what a Pennsy paint job won't do to a loco's performance! The secret, and Pennsy fans keep this to yourselves, is that two Proto 1000 RDC drives were installed in car bodies with passenger truck side frames replacing the RDC truck side frames. The RDC frames were cut down to fit the car bodies then couplers were added -- not too difficult a process with some brass angle, sheet and epoxy. A total surprise was that no one caught the powered passenger! Only one of the sleepers used showed a little of the motor. Serious thought, prototypical length trains without overpowering. Want to have some fun at the next train show or your open house? Have fun!!!!! Evan Leisey PS Now -- about those RDC car body chicken coops out on the farm?? --part1_13e.6f13725.295e9191_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List,

  Had a minor league brainstorm (a.k.a. modeling prank) last week.  

  A lone PRR PA (Proto 2000 heritage) effortlessly pulled forty-one passenger cars around the NMRA's Sunrise Div. (Aurora, Colorado) modular layout last night. Twenty-two of the cars were Walthers Budd cars with the rest being re-trucked Rivarossi, Con-Cor, Athearn and a few brass.  When asked what was done to the loco to make it pull that many cars,  I simple answered that it was a Pennsy loco and not a mere Santa Fe, Rio Grande, Burlington or Union Pacific loco doinng the pulling.  Yes,  this got "that durn easterner is up to somehting foul" comment!  The club electrician was checking the current meter and felt it had to be an instrument motor and weight in the loco.  This feat left them scratching their heads.  They wanted to confiscate the loco for examination but it was disassembled before their eyes to show there was nothing mystic under the shell.  Ah, yes, what a Pennsy paint job won't do to a loco's performance!

 The secret, and Pennsy fans keep this to yourselves,  is that two Proto 1000 RDC drives were installed in car bodies with passenger truck side frames replacing the RDC truck side frames.  The RDC frames were cut down to fit the car bodies then couplers were added -- not too difficult a process with some brass angle, sheet and epoxy.  A total surprise was that no one caught the powered passenger!  Only one of the sleepers used showed a little of the motor.

 Serious thought,  prototypical length trains without overpowering.  

 Want to have some fun at the next train show or your open house?

 Have fun!!!!!

 Evan Leisey

 PS   Now -- about those RDC car body chicken coops out on the farm??

 

    --part1_13e.6f13725.295e9191_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 21:39:27 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] PRR Smartaleck Strikes! Thats the spirit Evan. Show em what the best railroad ever to lay steel rail is. Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] B&O wagontop covered hoppers Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 22:00:32 -0600 Hi Walt--I did not see an answer to your email question. You might try their website http://www.centralhobby.com/products.html . However, I don't see the wagontop covered hopper listed in their West Shore Line. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GPandelios@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 21:55:07 EST Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Interlocking Tower Folks, Yesterday, enroute from Western PA to Hershey on I-80, we had to get off at interchange 15 to get around a traffic accident. We got on to PA 830 East and proceeded through a little town called Fall Creek, PA. At the far end of this town, I spotted at least 2 Pennsy position signals and an interlocking tower (2 story, masonry?) that looked in fairly good shape (except that all the windows had been broken). The tower had a "pagoda" like roof, was 2 story, and appeared to have no overhang. In other words, it looked nothing like "J" tower at Strasburg. The tower is basically a stone's throw south of I-80 off interchange 16. You regulars probably know all about it. Can anyone comment on this "find"? Thanks, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 21:41:42 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Interlocking Tower --- GPandelios@aol.com wrote: > We got on to PA 830 East and proceeded through a > little town called Fall Creek, PA. Close. It's "Falls Creek". Note the "s". > At the far end of > this town, I spotted at least 2 Pennsy position > signals Not quite. As of 40 years ago, the track you crossed as you went by the tower was the B&O Buffalo Division. The track which crossed it (that is, the one nearly parallel to 830) was the Low Grade Branch of the PRR Allegheny Division. At that time, the tower was manned, the signals on the B&O were regular B&O color-position-light signals, the PRR still had semaphores. In the 1970's, early '70's I think, B&O installed a CTC system controlled from Punxsutawney. At that time, Penn Central replaced the semaphores with PRR position light signals. In the late 1980's CSX (which had absorbed the B&O) sold the track to the Genesee & Wyoming people, who formed the Buffalo and Pittsburgh RR to operate it. Around the same time, or a year or two later, Conrail sold the Low Grade Branch to the Pittsburg & Shawmut. In the mid-1990's, the G&W folks bought the P&S. A year or so ago, they replaced the ex-PRR signals at Falls Creek with ex-B&O signals. (Yes, either one shows two horizontal red lights. But when cleared, the signals you saw would show two vertical green lights, PRR would show 3 vertical yellow.) > and an interlocking tower (2 story, masonry?) Cast concrete > that looked in fairly good shape Would require dynamite or other harsh measures to hurt the walls. > (except that all the windows had been broken). And some of the sashes and frames ripped out. > The tower had a "pagoda" like roof, was 2 > story, and appeared to have no overhang. Well, some overhang. (Maybe some of the eaves have rotted off since I last looked.) Don't forget the red terra-cotta roof tiles. > In other words, it looked nothing like "J" tower > at Strasburg. No reason it should, for it was built by the Buffalo, Rochester and Pittsburgh Railway. It is one of 4 that I know of: 1) C&M Junction, a couple miles SE of DuBois. 2) The one you saw. 3) About 12 miles north of DuBois, where the Erie-owned West Clarion RR left/joined the BR&P. 4) Ashford, NY where the Buffalo and Rochester lines diverged. There were other BR&P towers, but I know of no others of that design. The BR&P main line was extensively re-located/re-built in the first decade of the 20th century and those towers date from that time. The B&O bought the BR&P in 1931. > The tower is basically a stone's throw south of I-80 > off interchange 16. You > regulars probably know all about it. Can anyone > comment on this "find"? See above. Had you been there a few months ago, you could have seen Bennett Levin's E-8's pass that tower and run beside PA830 as far as the US219 intersection. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy Interlocking Tower Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 11:39:33 -0600 I think the BR&P had another of these towers at one time. At one time the B&O or perhaps the successor to the B&O, literally had to use dynamite in addition to other items of mass destruction, to bring the tower down, and decided just to abandon the other towers of this construction. The Ashford tower is privately owned. Believe it or not ERTL has a plastic kit of a tower of this design. >From pictures, some (mostly brick) towers on the New Haven appear to have architecture similar to the BR&P tower, but I don't know if they are as sturdily constructed. -----Original Message----- From: robert netzlof [mailto:wb3iqe@rocketmail.com] Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 11:42 PM To: GPandelios@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Interlocking Tower --- GPandelios@aol.com wrote: > We got on to PA 830 East and proceeded through a > little town called Fall Creek, PA. Close. It's "Falls Creek". Note the "s". > At the far end of > this town, I spotted at least 2 Pennsy position > signals Not quite. As of 40 years ago, the track you crossed as you went by the tower was the B&O Buffalo Division. The track which crossed it (that is, the one nearly parallel to 830) was the Low Grade Branch of the PRR Allegheny Division. At that time, the tower was manned, the signals on the B&O were regular B&O color-position-light signals, the PRR still had semaphores. In the 1970's, early '70's I think, B&O installed a CTC system controlled from Punxsutawney. At that time, Penn Central replaced the semaphores with PRR position light signals. In the late 1980's CSX (which had absorbed the B&O) sold the track to the Genesee & Wyoming people, who formed the Buffalo and Pittsburgh RR to operate it. Around the same time, or a year or two later, Conrail sold the Low Grade Branch to the Pittsburg & Shawmut. In the mid-1990's, the G&W folks bought the P&S. A year or so ago, they replaced the ex-PRR signals at Falls Creek with ex-B&O signals. (Yes, either one shows two horizontal red lights. But when cleared, the signals you saw would show two vertical green lights, PRR would show 3 vertical yellow.) > and an interlocking tower (2 story, masonry?) Cast concrete > that looked in fairly good shape Would require dynamite or other harsh measures to hurt the walls. > (except that all the windows had been broken). And some of the sashes and frames ripped out. > The tower had a "pagoda" like roof, was 2 > story, and appeared to have no overhang. Well, some overhang. (Maybe some of the eaves have rotted off since I last looked.) Don't forget the red terra-cotta roof tiles. > In other words, it looked nothing like "J" tower > at Strasburg. No reason it should, for it was built by the Buffalo, Rochester and Pittsburgh Railway. It is one of 4 that I know of: 1) C&M Junction, a couple miles SE of DuBois. 2) The one you saw. 3) About 12 miles north of DuBois, where the Erie-owned West Clarion RR left/joined the BR&P. 4) Ashford, NY where the Buffalo and Rochester lines diverged. There were other BR&P towers, but I know of no others of that design. The BR&P main line was extensively re-located/re-built in the first decade of the 20th century and those towers date from that time. The B&O bought the BR&P in 1931. > The tower is basically a stone's throw south of I-80 > off interchange 16. You > regulars probably know all about it. Can anyone > comment on this "find"? See above. Had you been there a few months ago, you could have seen Bennett Levin's E-8's pass that tower and run beside PA830 as far as the US219 intersection. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRobert172@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 12:50:46 EST Subject: [PRR] Consist for '36 #3768 --part1_6c.150f5de7.2960adf6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know where to find photographs or information on the original Broadway Limited passenger and head end makeup for the Lowey designed #3768 in 1936? I have plenty on the '38 cars that appeared in the World's Fair. Did he design a "Modernism" Broadway fleet that year to go with that engine? Best, B.P. --part1_6c.150f5de7.2960adf6_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone know where to find photographs or information on the original Broadway Limited passenger and head end makeup for the Lowey designed  #3768 in 1936?  I have plenty on the '38 cars that appeared in the World's Fair.  Did he design a "Modernism" Broadway fleet that year to go with that engine? Best, B.P. --part1_6c.150f5de7.2960adf6_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Interlocking Tower Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 16:33:32 -0500 slightly off topic but there is one near Brookville Pa. I found it while chasing 3 B&P SD45's, I don't know it's exact location, but I could find it again. It may be one of the ones already mentioned, but I am not Sure. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: ; Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 12:41 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Interlocking Tower > --- GPandelios@aol.com wrote: > > > We got on to PA 830 East and proceeded through a > > little town called Fall Creek, PA. > > Close. It's "Falls Creek". Note the "s". > > > At the far end of > > this town, I spotted at least 2 Pennsy position > > signals > > Not quite. > > As of 40 years ago, the track you crossed as you went > by the tower was the B&O Buffalo Division. The track > which crossed it (that is, the one nearly parallel to > 830) was the Low Grade Branch of the PRR Allegheny > Division. At that time, the tower was manned, the > signals on the B&O were regular B&O > color-position-light signals, the PRR still had > semaphores. > > In the 1970's, early '70's I think, B&O installed a > CTC system controlled from Punxsutawney. At that time, > Penn Central replaced the semaphores with PRR position > light signals. > > In the late 1980's CSX (which had absorbed the B&O) > sold the track to the Genesee & Wyoming people, who > formed the Buffalo and Pittsburgh RR to operate it. > Around the same time, or a year or two later, Conrail > sold the Low Grade Branch to the Pittsburg & Shawmut. > > In the mid-1990's, the G&W folks bought the P&S. A > year or so ago, they replaced the ex-PRR signals at > Falls Creek with ex-B&O signals. (Yes, either one > shows two horizontal red lights. But when cleared, the > signals you saw would show two vertical green lights, > PRR would show 3 vertical yellow.) > > > and an interlocking tower (2 story, masonry?) > > Cast concrete > > > that looked in fairly good shape > > Would require dynamite or other harsh measures to hurt > the walls. > > > (except that all the windows had been broken). > > And some of the sashes and frames ripped out. > > > The tower had a "pagoda" like roof, was 2 > > story, and appeared to have no overhang. > > Well, some overhang. (Maybe some of the eaves have > rotted off since I last looked.) > > Don't forget the red terra-cotta roof tiles. > > > In other words, it looked nothing like "J" tower > > at Strasburg. > > No reason it should, for it was built by the Buffalo, > Rochester and Pittsburgh Railway. It is one of 4 that > I know of: > > 1) C&M Junction, a couple miles SE of DuBois. > 2) The one you saw. > 3) About 12 miles north of DuBois, where the > Erie-owned West Clarion RR left/joined the BR&P. > 4) Ashford, NY where the Buffalo and Rochester lines > diverged. > > There were other BR&P towers, but I know of no others > of that design. The BR&P main line was extensively > re-located/re-built in the first decade of the 20th > century and those towers date from that time. The B&O > bought the BR&P in 1931. > > > The tower is basically a stone's throw south of I-80 > > off interchange 16. You > > regulars probably know all about it. Can anyone > > comment on this "find"? > > See above. > > Had you been there a few months ago, you could have > seen Bennett Levin's E-8's pass that tower and run > beside PA830 as far as the US219 intersection. > > > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Send your FREE holiday greetings online! > http://greetings.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 13:52:21 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Interlocking Tower --- Brian J Carlson wrote: > slightly off topic but there is one near Brookville > Pa. I found it while > chasing 3 B&P SD45's, I don't know it's exact > location, but I could find it > again. It may be one of the ones already mentioned, > but I am not Sure. Falls Creek is about 15 miles east of Brookville. I suspect the tower that started this is the tower you saw. By the bye, BR&P got to build the tower because they were the junior RR at the crossing. That is, the Allegheney Valley got there first so BR&P had to stand the expense of setting up the crossing. The Allegheny Valley was merged into the PRR early in the 20th century. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy Williamson Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:42:27 -0600 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Update to My Website Hi, I have added a new section to my web page. It is called "YARD ARRIVALS AND DEPARTURES" . I had started with Enola and now have added Fort Wayne arrivals and departures. I hope to add more yards in the upcoming months. Randy PRRT&HS #4611 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Tiny Wireless Camera under $80! Order Now! FREE VCR Commander! Click Here - Only 1 Day Left! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WoOlbB/7.PDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:42:27 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Update to My Website --=====================_20161400==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi, I have added a new section to my web page. It is called "YARD ARRIVALS AND DEPARTURES" . I had started with Enola and now have added Fort Wayne arrivals and departures. I hope to add more yards in the upcoming months. Randy PRRT&HS #4611 --=====================_20161400==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Hi,

I have added a new section to my web page.  It is called "YARD ARRIVALS AND DEPARTURES" . I had started with Enola and now have added Fort Wayne arrivals and departures.  I hope to add more yards in the upcoming months.

Randy
PRRT&HS #4611
--=====================_20161400==_.ALT-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GPandelios@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 22:31:10 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Not so Pennsy Interlocking tower Folks, Thanks for the updated information. I was focused on the detour and the driving and the last thing I expected to see was an interlocking tower. I only had a few seconds in which to take all this in. Also, I never saw the front of the position signals, only the backs. I didn't realize the two were so similar (at least from the rear). Cast concrete? Hmm, I actually thought it looked smooth-sided, but didn't really believe my eyes. > The tower had a "pagoda" like roof, was 2 > story, and appeared to have no overhang. The above was a misleading statement. What I meant was that the second story didn't overhang the first. The roof had very sizable eaves, hence my statement about a "pagoda" roof. Thanks again. George Modeling the Weirton, WV-Steubenville, OH area from 1948-1957 in O gauge ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 22:48:51 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] RFK Funeral train Sorry for delayed reply (been away), and can't really comment on the original request (for consist of the funeral train); but I and some railfan friends had been travelling around the country when RFK was assassinated; we were from NY and I remember learning enroute what had happend to our Senator. I also remember some uncharitable words overheard in a restaurant, and thinking, "hey, that's my Senator you're talking about!" I am not sure our exact itinerary but I think our last major stop was St. Louis; and we were headed back to New York on the day that the funeral train headed down the Corridor. We knew it was coming, but our train was halted somewhere in New Jersey; then came the shocking report from our conductor, "The Kennedy funeral train killed three people at Elizabeth." Later we were to learn that the deaths were caused by a train ahead of ours, not by the funeral train itself. (My memory has always been that the train involved was the second train ahead of ours, but I'm not sure how accurate this recollection may be.) We did see the funeral train pass; and we may well have been halted at the time. I recall it as a pretty dark, rainy day. Eventually we arrived in New York, and I got to my parents' home on Long Island to see on TV the funeral train still enroute to Washington. I can't lay my hands on a timetable for that year; but we may well have been on a PC train from St. Louis. (Or we might have connected at Washington, perhaps; not sure, but maybe from the C&O.) John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "WaltP" Subject: [PRR] [PRR]B&O wagontop covered hoppers Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 08:30:04 -0500 Gentlemen, I see that West Shore Line has 3 pages, on which those covered hoppers are on the last. Very interesting array of "foreign road" kits. I have ordered one of the covered hoppers as well as a box car. Now to see how I do building them. Thanks to all of you for this info. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 09:47:06 EST Subject: [PRR] New Vendor, Help!!! Hello List, Over the past few days there was tallk on the List of a new vendor offering/importing Ho Scale, highly detailed steam locomotives. The name, I believe was Broadway something. There was a website posted for this company that I failed to bookmark. If someone out there has this web address or any info on this company, could you please get it to me? Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jon S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 11:09:53 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] New Vendor, Help!!! Its Broadway -Limited Imports at: http://www.broadway-limited.com Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== JONS6755@aol.com wrote: > Hello List, > Over the past few days there was tallk on the List of a new vendor > offering/importing Ho Scale, highly detailed steam locomotives. The name, I > believe was Broadway something. There was a website posted for this company > that I failed to bookmark. If someone out there has this web address or any > info on this company, could you please get it to me? Any help is greatly > appreciated. > > Thanks, > Jon S. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Pennsy S Models new X29 pilot model photo Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 14:46:13 -0500 Hi Everyone, As we close out the year 2001, I thought I would give a short update on the project. Dan and I would like to thank everyone for their continued support of our S Scale X-29 project. Once again, while we have been quiet lately, we have been continually working to bring you the high quality X-29 we promised we would. If you have not given us a deposit yet, we can still accommodate you. We are building the Railway Express version first, which will be followed by the freight versions. Please visit www.pennsysmodels.com for more information and an order form. Here is a photo of the second generation pilot model that I just received from our builder this morning. http://users.snip.net/~billlane/X29pilotmodel.jpg It is still a work in progress, however, I was VERY impressed. I think you will be too. The punched rivets are much improved over the first pilot model. Thank You, Bill Lane Dan Mastrobuono Pennsy S Models ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 12:13:44 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Not so Pennsy Interlocking tower --- GPandelios@aol.com wrote: > Folks, > > Thanks for the updated information. I was focused > on the detour and the > driving Always a good idea, especially so on 830, and even more so when you've never been there before. > > The tower had a "pagoda" like roof, was 2 > > story, and appeared to have no overhang. > > The above was a misleading statement. What I meant > was that the second story > didn't overhang the first. The roof had very > sizable eaves, hence my > statement about a "pagoda" roof. Note also that the roof is not four planes. Rather the rafters are curved, producing concave roof panels, heightening the resemblance to a pagoda. I think the one at Falls Creek is one or two windows longer than the other three. And yes, I've seen photos of New Haven towers with very similar lines, although made of brick. Ertl sold off the model, which was advertised as "BR&P Ashford Tower". They offered it only fully assembled for $40. I found that very resistable. Got a couple of the earlier Design Associates kits on eBay for much less. Thought of getting 5 so that I would have more than the BR&P did. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] Daytime Running Practice Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 15:47:45 -0500 Can anyone pinpoint the timeframe that the Pennsy instituted the "headlights on" practice on diesels for daytime running? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:33:12 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Great News for HO Scalers!!! From: Jerry Britton I have just been in contact with Broadway Limited Imports. As you know, this new company plans to release the NYC J1e this coming June. Also, as discussed, their web site shows a PRR M1, leading to speculation that they plan to do an M1 in plastic. They will be doing both a PRR M1a and M1b. Both are slated for delivery around mid 2003. You heard it here first: Due first, this coming October, will be a PRR T1!!! Details will be available soon. Be advised that no BLI dealer, myself included, can take reservations for either the T1 or M1's as yet...there are no part numbers. Please be patient and wait for further details. Happy New Year! ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 16:54:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR Tender, Lists, I am seeking an HO PRR 110P75 Tender that was produced by Keystone Replicas. Anyone have one in their stock or know of a dealer that has any? I had one cornered on the internet but it was recently sold. Dang! Would settle for an old Red Ball Tender as well. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:13:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Great News for HO Scalers!!! Jerry, Ready to come back to HO Scale yet?....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!!