Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 05:50:04 -0800 (PST) From: Dan Staron Subject: [PRR] flood book I'm in need of some help with the following book. A friend is trying to purchase my extra copy but we are at odds over the fair market price of this book. Since it is a book prepared for the Management of the Pennsylvania lines west I assume it is somewhat rare. Any help on pricing from the list members would help I don't want to take chances at auction. the book is Pennsylvania Lines West of Pittsburgh: A History of the Flood of March, 1913. by Garrett, Chas. W. Pittsburgh, PA: Wm. G. Johnston & Co., c1913, p.257, illus., cm. Any help would be apprecated __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Dividends? Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:00:51 -0600 As indicated, the prohibition against working a second job is not simply a PRR edict. Some companies employed this policy well into the 70s. I worked for one. -----Original Message----- From: Charles Ring [mailto:charlesr@infonline.net] Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 5:53 PM To: Gregg Mahlkov Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dividends? Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > Charles' > > The prohibition against working a second job was not a PRR edict alone. Most > railroads had this, especially for those who were "on call" or salaried. > Salaried employees were considered "on duty" 168 hours per week. do present day railroads still do this? > > > PRR also forbade non-agreement employees from living in what is now referred > to as "manufactured housing" and was then known as house trailers. > i didnt know about that one. was the reason simply "keeping up appearances" or something more? i suspect there was little trouble with that rule since those it applied to could well afford better. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 09:23:26 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] New Walthers Passenger Cars Someone on the Passenger car list passed the word that Walthers has just announced four new HO cars. One is an REA Express reefer (stealing the thunder from the long overdue Branchline kit) and another appears to be a Congo Parlor Car! Will Walthers be doing the whole Congo/Senator??? :-)))) http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-6241 http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-6445 http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-6421 http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-6405 -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 09:24:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] flood book From: Jerry Britton On 11/1/01 8:50 AM, Dan Staron (norats00@yahoo.com) wrote: > I'm in need of some help with the following book. A > friend is trying to purchase my extra copy but we are > at odds over the fair market price of this book. > > Since it is a book prepared for the Management of the > Pennsylvania lines west I assume it is somewhat rare. > > Any help on pricing from the list members would help I > don't want to take chances at auction. > > the book is > > Pennsylvania Lines West of Pittsburgh: A History of > the Flood of March, 1913. by Garrett, Chas. W. > Pittsburgh, PA: Wm. G. Johnston & Co., c1913, p.257, > illus., cm. > I can't speak for that book, but all of the PRR Flood books are very rare. I can't remember seeing one go on eBay for less than $100, though I've never seen them over $200 either. I won't say what I paid for a copy of the 1936-1937 Floods book! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 09:28:39 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Buildings in Harrisburg - Harrisburg Patriot-News From: Jerry Britton Earlier this week there was an inquiry about what buildings existed along the right-of-way through Harrisburg. I had submitted, due to valuation maps, that the Harrisburg Patriot-News may not have yet existed. The map was still showing team tracks at that location. Esteemed lister Dan Cupper suggested that the Patriot News building was built in the early 1950's. He recounted construction being affected by the Korean Conflict. Well "Kudos to Dan"... I e-mailed the patriot news and received the following reply: > In response to your e-mail to John Kirkpatrick, editor/publisher, > construction started on The Patriot-News plant at 812 Market St. on Jan. 2, > 1952. The first newspaper off the press was The Patriot on July 6, 1953. Thanks, Dan! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 09:30:05 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] R50B From: Jerry Britton On 10/31/01 3:06 PM, Mark Franke (mfranke@cox.rr.com) wrote: > Looking for photos/lettering diagrams for PRR R50 B reefers . Any help would > be great Looking for someone to manufacture them in N and HO scales in plastic or resin. That would be even greater!!! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:46:23 EST Subject: [PRR] New Walthers Passenger Cars In a message dated 11/1/01 8:32:45 AM Central Standard Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << One is an REA Express reefer (stealing the thunder from the long overdue Branchline kit) >> The Walthers car is the riveted mid to late 50's car. The Branchline kit test shots I have seen were for the 1947 welded car, useful to modelers of earlier eras. That parlor lounge looks like a Congo car---anyone care to comment? I guess the other two cars are ATSF. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 09:52:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] New Walthers Passenger Cars From: Jerry Britton On 11/1/01 9:46 AM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: > In a message dated 11/1/01 8:32:45 AM Central Standard Time, > asmiller@mitre.org writes: > > << One is an REA Express reefer (stealing the > thunder from the long overdue Branchline kit) >> > > The Walthers car is the riveted mid to late 50's car. The Branchline kit > test shots I have seen were for the 1947 welded car, useful to modelers of > earlier eras. That parlor lounge looks like a Congo car---anyone care to > comment? I guess the other two cars are ATSF. > The Branchline car is the earlier car, and is offered in several liveries. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:56:19 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] R50B Mark asked: >Looking for photos/lettering diagrams for PRR R50 B reefers . Any help would >be great Mark, Photos: PRR color guide I Pennsy Power III http://www.trainweb.org/jssand/Foreign/PRR.htm Lettering guide: The PRRT&HS published book on passenger cars (I'm blanking on the title) Note that these cars were Tuscan, with "buff" lettering (never gold). Sunshine Models has announced that they are producing an R50b in HO scale. I'm willing to bet that the release will be timed to coincide with the 2002 PRRT&HS meeting ;^) So, save your pennies, 'cause these will be verrrrrry nice! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:20:04 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] New Walthers Passenger Cars Andy asks: >Someone on the Passenger car list passed the word that Walthers has just >announced four new HO cars. One is an REA Express reefer (stealing the >thunder from the long overdue Branchline kit) and another appears to be >a Congo Parlor Car! Will Walthers be doing the whole Congo/Senator??? We can all wish, but the Walthers philosophy regarding passenger cars seems to indicate that this is not the plan :^( They are focusing on cars that can be used on multiple railraods with a common Amtrak theme rather than filling out particular train consists. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:36:54 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] New Walthers Passenger Cars In a message dated 11/1/01 9:09:27 AM Central Standard Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes (re the REA car) : << In my 15 minutes of fame, I had my one and only MR article published on that kitbash. >> Which I remember very well as giving the best tip I have had yet on matching REA green (Japan Navy Green). Thank you. As a matter of fact, to these tired eyes, that JNG (starting another esoteric acronym:-)) matches the REA green on the decals from Sunshine. Speaking of the pre-Apple Green color, of course. Question to the list: anyone got photo or consist evidence of those ATSF s.s. baggage cars in Pennsy East-West consists in late 40's,early 50's era, if they were around that early (haven't checked the build date on the Walthers car--a question for the Passenger Car List) Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] R50B Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:25:07 -0600 Did not Kicekl Plate Products and Custom Brass (and maybe Rail Works) produce these cars in brass? -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 8:56 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] R50B Mark asked: >Looking for photos/lettering diagrams for PRR R50 B reefers . Any help would >be great Mark, Photos: PRR color guide I Pennsy Power III http://www.trainweb.org/jssand/Foreign/PRR.htm Lettering guide: The PRRT&HS published book on passenger cars (I'm blanking on the title) Note that these cars were Tuscan, with "buff" lettering (never gold). Sunshine Models has announced that they are producing an R50b in HO scale. I'm willing to bet that the release will be timed to coincide with the 2002 PRRT&HS meeting ;^) So, save your pennies, 'cause these will be verrrrrry nice! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:22:46 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: RE: [PRR] R50B Marvin asks: >Did not Kicekl Plate Products and Custom Brass (and maybe Rail Works) >produce these cars in brass? I think at least 4 brass versions have been sold. I believe that both NPP and CB have sold R50bs. Rail Classics offered a very nice car a few years back, but these are very rare (and expensive) on the market. I personally like the Precision car (Iron Horse) as it is very detailed and usually around $100 on the open market (that said, I haven't seen on of these recently either!) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:32:00 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] R50B In a message dated 11/1/01 10:32:52 AM Central Standard Time, cadwelml@bp.com writes: << Did not Nickel Plate Products and Custom Brass (and maybe Rail Works) produce these cars in brass? >> Dont force me to go in that storage locker :-)! I am guessing, but I have two, one I think is Alco or Alpha (?) unpainted and one is PSC painted by the Koreans in a strange shade of purple. The first was a bargain and is on my list of early paint jobs. The second will undergo heavy weathering as long as the color is so bilious anyway. I also (somewhere) have an old Cannonball kit which looks to have nice (though brittle) sides, but the roof was too daunting to attempt. Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: [PRR] R50 Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:59:48 -0600 Jerry said " Looking for someone to manufacture them in N and HO scales in plastic or resin. That would be even greater!!! ;-)" Talking to Martin L. of Sunshine Models at the Naperville PMS meet and the R50 sounds like its coming soon. That's HO scale, sorry Jerry. Peter Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] R50 Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:19:49 -0500 Listers, Peter wrote: "Talking to Martin L. of Sunshine Models at the Naperville PMS meet and the R50 sounds like its coming soon." Our prayers are answered. I will buy one which will guarantee that it will come out in plastic within 6 months! Which then leads to the predicament of having one very detailed Sunshine car in amongst the plastic ones. Solved by not building the Sunshine car:) Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] R50 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 19:22:51 +0000 Peter and the List: Is the Sunshine Models R50 going to be plastic, resin, or brass? TIA Ted Andrews Carmel, Ind. >From: Peter Reinhold >Reply-To: "preinhol@unidie.com" >To: "PRR-Talk (E-mail)" >Subject: [PRR] R50 >Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:59:48 -0600 > >Jerry said " >Looking for someone to manufacture them in N and HO scales in plastic or >resin. That would be even greater!!! ;-)" > >Talking to Martin L. of Sunshine Models at the Naperville PMS meet and the >R50 sounds like its coming soon. That's HO scale, sorry Jerry. > > >Peter Reinhold > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 14:23:49 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] R50 From: Jerry Britton On 11/1/01 9:59 AM, Peter Reinhold (preinhol@unidie.com) wrote: > Looking for someone to manufacture them in N and HO scales in plastic or > resin. That would be even greater!!! ;-)" > > Talking to Martin L. of Sunshine Models at the Naperville PMS meet and the R50 > sounds like its coming soon. That's HO scale, sorry Jerry. > > Sunshine was talking of this model two years ago at the convention. I'm sure it will come, in time. But what about plastic or resin, for the masses? Bethlehem Car Works was also considering an HO R50b at one time. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: FW: [PRR] R50 Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:36:45 -0600 > > Talking to Martin L. of Sunshine Models at the Naperville PMS meet and the R50 > sounds like its coming soon. That's HO scale, sorry Jerry. > > Sunshine was talking of this model two years ago at the convention. I'm sure it will come, in time. But what about plastic or resin, for the masses? SunShine Models is resin. Pete Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: RE: [PRR] R50 Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:43:55 -0600 Listers, Peter wrote: "Talking to Martin L. of Sunshine Models at the Naperville PMS meet and the R50 sounds like its coming soon." Our prayers are answered. I will buy one which will guarantee that it will come out in plastic within 6 months! Which then leads to the predicament of having one very detailed Sunshine car in amongst the plastic ones. Solved by not building the Sunshine car:) Chris Chany Chris, I missed the plastic X37's, G27, and G29 some how. VBG. Pete Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:54:03 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] R50 Ted asks: > >Is the Sunshine Models R50 going to be plastic, resin, or brass? Resin for sure. Also, Martin isn't really into the one piece body in the way that Al Westerfield is, so expect it to be a "flat" kit. Chris, I'll be happy to put yours together for you (that's a $75 charge, of course ). Honestly, I LOVE to assemble these kits - I don't find it difficult with the right tools. For all of you with "Westerfear" as Mr. Teichmoeller calls it, you should buy Al's "how to video"...it makes it easy, it only costs about $7 and you can get a rebate when you buy a kit! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] R50 Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:22:57 -0500 Pete, Sorry, didn't buy those however I have a nice Sunshine Turtle roof box car kit I'd be willing to sell ya. Chris -----Original Message----- From: Peter Reinhold [mailto:preinhol@unidie.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 2:44 PM To: PRR-Talk (E-mail) Subject: RE: [PRR] R50 Listers, Peter wrote: "Talking to Martin L. of Sunshine Models at the Naperville PMS meet and the R50 sounds like its coming soon." Our prayers are answered. I will buy one which will guarantee that it will come out in plastic within 6 months! Which then leads to the predicament of having one very detailed Sunshine car in amongst the plastic ones. Solved by not building the Sunshine car:) Chris Chany Chris, I missed the plastic X37's, G27, and G29 some how. VBG. Pete Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 15:39:58 -0500 From: James Stob Subject: Re: [PRR] flood book Hi Dan, The book is indeed rare, and if in excellent condition, can command anywhere from $200 to $500. I have one myself (as well as the '37 flood book published by PRR), and they are both treasured. Go to Alibris, or search our other book appraisers on the internet, and you will find the 1913 flood book to be available from a few retail book dealers for the amounts I mentioned earlier. Best regards, Jim Stob PRRT&HS 6951 Dan Staron wrote: > I'm in need of some help with the following book. A > friend is trying to purchase my extra copy but we are > at odds over the fair market price of this book. > > Since it is a book prepared for the Management of the > Pennsylvania lines west I assume it is somewhat rare. > > Any help on pricing from the list members would help I > don't want to take chances at auction. > > the book is > > Pennsylvania Lines West of Pittsburgh: A History of > the Flood of March, 1913. by Garrett, Chas. W. > Pittsburgh, PA: Wm. G. Johnston & Co., c1913, p.257, > illus., cm. > > Any help would be apprecated > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > http://personals.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Franke" Subject: Re: [PRR] R50B Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:17:14 -0500 N.J International has made then in brass in Nscale as I have acquired a few recently I suspect the were made in the early 80's. I recently saw one on Ebay. Will try to find the listing Mark Franke ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Britton To: Mark Franke ; PRR-Talk LIST ; PRR-n_scale Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 9:30 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] R50B > On 10/31/01 3:06 PM, Mark Franke (mfranke@cox.rr.com) wrote: > > > Looking for photos/lettering diagrams for PRR R50 B reefers . Any help would > > be great > > Looking for someone to manufacture them in N and HO scales in plastic or > resin. That would be even greater!!! ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Franke" Subject: Re: [PRR] R50B Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:29:26 -0500 Does anyone have a copy of the PRRT&HS passenger car book. If so a scan or a zerox of the R50B would be appreciated. The book is out of print and the last one on eBay went for morethan $75.00(ouch) Thanks ahead of time Mark Franke mfranke@cox.rr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. To: Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 9:56 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] R50B > Mark asked: > >Looking for photos/lettering diagrams for PRR R50 B reefers . Any help would > >be great > > Mark, > > Photos: > PRR color guide I > Pennsy Power III > http://www.trainweb.org/jssand/Foreign/PRR.htm > > Lettering guide: > The PRRT&HS published book on passenger cars (I'm blanking on the title) > > Note that these cars were Tuscan, with "buff" lettering (never gold). > > Sunshine Models has announced that they are producing an R50b in HO scale. > I'm willing to bet that the release will be timed to coincide with the 2002 > PRRT&HS meeting ;^) So, save your pennies, 'cause these will be verrrrrry > nice! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson PRR/ Penn Central Art) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:56:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Superelevation: Horseshoe Curve. Hello List, Does anyone know what year the PRR lowered the superelevation of the tracks at Horseshoe? Got into a very long discussion about TrucTrains and Horseshoe Curve today. We talked about the problems PRR had with pushing TrucTrains westbound from Altoona and the derailments right on the Curve itself. Somewhere along the way, Pennsy started putting a 40ft boxcar between the cabin car and the last flatcar on piggybacks headed west. Lowering the superelevation is supposed to ease the operation of longer and heavier trains around the Curve. Was it the TrucTrains that forced PRR to lower the banking? I'm also thinking maybe the ore trains from South Philly. This was a new route for ore movements in the mid 1950s. Any help would be appreciated!!! Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Superelevation: Horseshoe Curve. Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 13:17:44 +0000 Dave and the List: Ore trains would be a reason itself to lower the superelevation. Slow, heavy trains would put more weight on the inside or lower rail. Over time, the rail head would flatten out or "mushroom." When the certain stress thresholds are reached, steel will be plastic and flow albeit slow. Speaking of superelevation, what were the standards on the Pennsy (before and after the 1950's)? When I worked for Conrail in the mid 1980's, the maximum super was 4". I know that the Erie used 6" I think into the EL merger and up to Conrail. To get back to Horseshoe curve, I think that it is plausible that the introduction of new freight car equipment such as 75' flatcars would result in changes in superelevation practices and standards. I think that it was the 89 foot flatcars of the 1960's revealed that derailments of these cars were possible when they crossed over from track to track under certain circumstances. (the turnout "number", the track spacing, the turnout spacing, the speed, etc.) I hope that this helps. It is an interesting topic thread. Ted Andrew Carmel, Indiana -worked for Conrail's M of W - Track Depart.; a "railfan" in more ways than one!! :) >From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson PRR/ Penn Central Art) >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] Superelevation: Horseshoe Curve. >Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:56:36 -0500 (EST) > > > Hello List, > > Does anyone know what year the PRR lowered the superelevation of >the tracks at Horseshoe? > Got into a very long discussion about TrucTrains and Horseshoe >Curve today. We talked about the problems PRR had with pushing >TrucTrains westbound from Altoona and the derailments right on the Curve >itself. Somewhere along the way, Pennsy started putting a 40ft boxcar >between the cabin car and the last flatcar on piggybacks headed west. > Lowering the superelevation is supposed to >ease the operation of longer and heavier trains around the Curve. Was it >the TrucTrains that forced PRR to lower the banking? > I'm also thinking maybe the ore trains from South Philly. This was >a new route for ore movements in the mid 1950s. > Any help would be appreciated!!! > > Dave Hopson > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson PRR/ Penn Central Art) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:44:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Superelevation: Horseshoe Curve. Ted & List, I also belive that the 89ft "lowdeck" flat was a major problem for the PRR at Horseshoe. I don't know what the banking was but 4" sounds right. PRR was also derailing empty auto racks on the tail end of the trains. Penn Central may have lowered the superelevation even more to save maintnance on the rails. I imagine PRR had to make a lot of changes to the trackwork to handle these new freight cars. Maybe the early 1960s, the banking might have been changed at Horseshoe. Someone out there knows. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 09:56:56 EST From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Superelevation: Horseshoe Curve. My understanding was that the long cars coupled with the short wheelbase of the cabin cars was causing derailments when crossing from one track to the next similar to what us modelers experience when we make an s curve with no straight in between. It was written up in Rails Northeast as a question and answered by several people familiar with the Pittsburgh division as I recall. They started inserting 50' box cars to eliminate the problem. Apparently it was a successful solution. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 12:23:51 EST From: JSZARMACH@aol.com Subject: [PRR] GG1 4909 Update For those of you interested, I just got back from working on the 4909. We spent about 3 days on it and we made some good progress on this trip. We also performed an airbrake test and moved it with a switcher. You can see photos and read about it on the website at: http://www.PJandCompany.com/GG1 Also, I added a couple of additional inside photos (click on "Tour the Inside"). --Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] H6 models? Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 11:17:14 -0600 (CST) From: george.pierson@trnty.edu Hi, everyone, A quick modeling questions - does anyone know if anyone has ever done an H6 in brass in HO? I'm interested in the early version with the square steam chests. TIA George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:07:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] H6 models? George, The earliest H6 available is the H6sa? and H6sb series. Lambert, Railworks and Sunset make these. You may be able to back date one to an H6.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] H6 models? Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:42:59 -0600 H6sb has been done in brass by Lambert, Sunset, and Railworks. -----Original Message----- From: george.pierson@trnty.edu [mailto:george.pierson@trnty.edu] Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 11:17 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] H6 models? Hi, everyone, A quick modeling questions - does anyone know if anyone has ever done an H6 in brass in HO? I'm interested in the early version with the square steam chests. TIA George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 16:45:14 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] Delmarva Lives! I'm sitting here finishing off the afternoon's paperwork and was interrupted by the southbound ESHR freight to Cape Charles. It came through with 2 blue Paducah rebuilt GP-10s, 36 motley 100 ton hoppers including one that used to be Conrail-- freight car red with a logo but the CONRAIL painted out-- and one LP tankcar. The fall grain rush is on with soybeans and corn going to chicken and hog farms in North Carolina I think. Too bad its not an L-1s . . . hope this is PRR enough to please the moderator. Jim McDaniel, wishing for DGLE and Keystones instead of Conrail Blue. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 18:26:58 -0500 From: Ken Meyer Subject: [PRR] Open House Anyone heading to Don Richard's Friday nite (7p-11p)? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 04:38:11 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Adoption of electric headlights on PRR Hello list, I was perusing the MR Cyclopedia Vol 1: Steam Locomotives for the upteemth time today. On page 54 there's a nice shot of H9s 3535. According to Edson, she was built in October 1913 by Juniata (making her a late new-built H9s) and scrapped in June 1950. The photo caption in the Cyc says it's a builder's photo. What makes it intriguing is that the engine has a turbogenerator for an electric arc headlight. Most PRR steam didn't get electric lights until after 1920 (K4s engines 3726-3775 being one of the first groups of engines built new with electric headlights). The I1s class built by Baldwin in 1922-23 and the 3800 series K4s engines were among the first built with round cased headlights. When did PRR start experimenting with electric headlights and turbogenerators for them? Is H9s 3535 the first PRR steamer with electric headlights? Thanks in advance! Doug __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Adoption of electric headlights on PRR Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:06:57 -0500 Doug:- I don't know the exact dates, but Lines West was using generators and electric headlights at least a decade before the PRR itself. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Kisala" To: "PRR talk" Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 7:38 AM Subject: [PRR] Adoption of electric headlights on PRR > Hello list, > > I was perusing the MR Cyclopedia Vol 1: Steam > Locomotives for the upteemth time today. > > On page 54 there's a nice shot of H9s 3535. According > to Edson, she was built in October 1913 by Juniata > (making her a late new-built H9s) and scrapped in June > 1950. The photo caption in the Cyc says it's a > builder's photo. What makes it intriguing is that the > engine has a turbogenerator for an electric arc > headlight. > > Most PRR steam didn't get electric lights until after > 1920 (K4s engines 3726-3775 being one of the first > groups of engines built new with electric headlights). > The I1s class built by Baldwin in 1922-23 and the > 3800 series K4s engines were among the first built > with round cased headlights. > > When did PRR start experimenting with electric > headlights and turbogenerators for them? Is H9s 3535 > the first PRR steamer with electric headlights? > > Thanks in advance! > > Doug > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Find a job, post your resume. > http://careers.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 06:25:35 -0800 (PST) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] New York City Hi, I am searching for the number of inhabitans in NYC in 1944 and 2000 for use in my thesis about the PRR and Amtrak. Can someone get these numbers for my since there is no e-mail adress for the City of New York or the NYPD. And calling from Europe to the US would be expensive. Thanks in advance Geoffrey Van Dooren __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] Boswer N5 Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 12:50:01 -0500 Here's a quick question. Somewhere along the way I seem to remember someone saying the PRR N5 cabin car is actually an N5b. Is this correct? Thanks Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRR5499@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Boswer N5 Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 21:33:02 +0000 The N-5b had a cushion underframe,which the N-5 did not. N-5s were built starting 1914,the N-5bs in 1941. Also most if not all of the N-5s were built without "crash-beams",which were added later. Windows and hand-rails also differed. Ed Case > Here's a quick question. Somewhere along the way I seem to remember someone > saying the PRR N5 cabin car is actually an N5b. Is this correct? > Thanks > > Brian J Carlson > Cheektowaga NY > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 16:59:49 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dividends? In a message dated Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:16:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Douglas Nelson" writes: > I believe that I have read somewhere that the PRR held the longest record > for paying stockholder dividends of any U.S. corporation. Can someone > confirm this? > > What year did the dividend payments stop? Has any corporation surpassed > this record? > > Thanks, > Doug Nelson > PRRT&HS #4852 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 16:59:50 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dividends? In a message dated Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:16:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Douglas Nelson" writes: > I believe that I have read somewhere that the PRR held the longest record > for paying stockholder dividends of any U.S. corporation. Can someone > confirm this? > > What year did the dividend payments stop? Has any corporation surpassed > this record? > > Thanks, > Doug Nelson > PRRT&HS #4852 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Boswer N5 Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 16:41:35 -0600 Ed--Instead of the N5b, are you thinking of the four N5a's which had Duryea cushion underframes? The window difference between N5 and N5b was very minor, negligible in HO--just the width of the window frames, not the width of the windows. Brian-- Bowser in their wisdom made poor attempts at casting on the curved side grabs; the model would have been better off without them. Shaving them off is not difficult and then you can put grabs on to represent either N5 or N5b since these grabs vary slightly; the N5b grabs extend upward closer to the belt rail. Also, many, but not all N5b's were equipped with train phone; however, I do not know of any N5's so equipped. Ed brought up the subject of "crash-beams", the structures at the ends of the platforms which were supposed to enhance the crew's survivability in event of a mishap. The N5's were built without these beams; however, most, but not all, received them later in life. Photos of N5b's when built which I have seen all show the crash-beams installed. The bottom line--the Bowser "N5" can be used as the starting point for N5 or N5b cabins. The best source on this topic to date is the Keystone of December 1973. Ed Martin wrote an excellent article in Mainline Modeler December 1995 in which he used the Bowser model as the beginnings for both a N5 and a N5b. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 17:44:22 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: [PRR] 1913 Flood & PRR Dividends In a message dated Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:16:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Douglas Nelson" writes: > I believe that I have read somewhere that the PRR held the longest record > for paying stockholder dividends of any U.S. corporation. Can someone > confirm this? > > What year did the dividend payments stop? Has any corporation surpassed > this record? > > Thanks, > Doug Nelson > PRRT&HS #4852 > Two threads converge. Nothing shows Broad Streets dividend fixation than it's decision to pay a dividend in 1914 despite the catastrophic losses from the Ohio-Indiana Flood March 23-28, 1903. During this worst-ever calamity, high water blocked every north-south river valley on Pittsburgh-St. Louis Panhandle mainline from the Muskingum River at Trinway, O., to the Wabash River at Terre Haute, the Panhandle's Columbus-Chicago line from the Scioto River at Columbus to the Wabash River at Logansport, Ind. The Fort Wayne main was closed for three days between Crestline, O., and points west of Fort Wayne, Ind. 262 miles of track, 24 miles of embankment and trestles and 4 miles of bridges were destroyed but not passenger was hurt. The loss of rolling stock and facilities was staggering but thru service to St. Louis resumed in 11 days. PRR set its flood cost at $29 million. Shut for most of February by two major blizzards, the PRR had only $750,000 cash on hand on April 1, 1914 after 120 trains had been dropped from timetables and 38,000 Panhandle, "P" Co. and PRR employees were laid off. There was dividend, albeit cut by 60 percent from projections. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:58:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Boswer N5 Steve, These collision posts may have 2 purposes. The first as you say was to protect the crew in "collisions". The second reason (at least this is what I always heard) was to strengthen the whole cabin assembly for loco pushing purposes. Can anyone confirm this reason too?......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:15:14 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] M1b plans in MR Cyc Vol 1: Steam Locomotives Hello list, A little while back Sam Vastano (I believe) was asking about M1a/M1b external differences. While reviewing MR's Cyc (also prompting my H9s question from yesterday), I noticed that the plan on pages 180-181 is actually an M1b. It shows the location of the circulator washout plugs exactly. Doug __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] M1b plans in MR Cyc Vol 1: Steam Locomotives Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 06:52:08 -0500 Doug & Group, After the answer to my M1a M1b question I have scoured the pennsy power series. If I am seeing correctly I see quite a few captions that are wrong. M1a's as B's etc. I am I correct or is the author? Thanks Sam Vastano So many hobbies so little time! >From: Doug Kisala >To: PRR talk >Subject: [PRR] M1b plans in MR Cyc Vol 1: Steam Locomotives >Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:15:14 -0800 (PST) > >Hello list, > >A little while back Sam Vastano (I believe) was asking >about M1a/M1b external differences. > >While reviewing MR's Cyc (also prompting my H9s >question from yesterday), I noticed that the plan on >pages 180-181 is actually an M1b. It shows the >location of the circulator washout plugs exactly. > >Doug > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Find a job, post your resume. >http://careers.yahoo.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRR5499@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Boswer N5 Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 16:49:15 +0000 Steve, I looked up my info in the N.J. book "Cabin Cars of the PRR & Long Island RR. They have the plans for both the N-5,and N-5b.You are right about the windows. Its the frames that is up-graded in the N-5b. If you compare N-5a plans with N-5b ones it looks like the "B"s also had the Duryea frames,even if it is not stated. EC > Ed--Instead of the N5b, are you thinking of the four N5a's which had Duryea > cushion underframes? The window difference between N5 and N5b was very > minor, negligible in HO--just the width of the window frames, not the width > of the windows. > > Brian-- Bowser in their wisdom made poor attempts at casting on the curved > side grabs; the model would have been better off without them. Shaving > them off is not difficult and then you can put grabs on to represent either > N5 or N5b since these grabs vary slightly; the N5b grabs extend upward > closer to the belt rail. Also, many, but not all N5b's were equipped with > train phone; however, I do not know of any N5's so equipped. Ed brought up > the subject of "crash-beams", the structures at the ends of the platforms > which were supposed to enhance the crew's survivability in event of a > mishap. The N5's were built without these beams; however, most, but not > all, received them later in life. Photos of N5b's when built which I have > seen all show the crash-beams installed. > > The bottom line--the Bowser "N5" can be used as the starting point for N5 or > N5b cabins. The best source on this topic to date is the Keystone of > December 1973. Ed Martin wrote an excellent article in Mainline Modeler > December 1995 in which he used the Bowser model as the beginnings for both a > N5 and a N5b. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:51:49 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Boswer N5 In a message dated 11/3/01 3:07:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << The second reason (at least this is what I always heard) was to strengthen the whole cabin assembly for loco pushing purposes. Can anyone confirm this reason too?......Gary >> Gary and All, I have never heard that and I would dispute it's structurual attempt to "strengthen" the caboose. I would doubt that you could believe this as much more than a conductor's tale... I believe they were called anti-collision post by the PRR. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:54:02 EST Subject: [PRR] March 1913 Floods at Dayton In a message dated 11/4/01 1:11:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Two threads converge. Nothing shows Broad Streets dividend fixation than it's decision to pay a dividend in 1914 despite the catastrophic losses from the Ohio-Indiana Flood March 23-28, 1903. During this worst-ever calamity, high water blocked every north-south river valley on Pittsburgh-St. Louis Panhandle mainline from the Muskingum River at Trinway, O., to the Wabash River at Terre Haute, the Panhandle's Columbus-Chicago line from the Scioto River at Columbus to the Wabash River at Logansport, Ind. The Fort Wayne main was closed for three days between Crestline, O., and points west of Fort Wayne, Ind. >> You meant to say 1913, of course. I'd mention the PRR Lines West engineering organization's album on the 1913 flood damage as a terrific resource, but I get the feeling that all the library copies (Dayton, Columbus, Fort Wayne) have disappeared, due either to deaccession or disappearance. In other words, either the library threw it out because it was an old book, or some lowlife stole it because it was a collectible. Tom, as you've pointed out very well before, the financial damage was so great that writing the massive losses off against the Lines West books set up the LW operating folks for all kinds of cost cutting. The rebuilds of N6 cabins retaining the wood bodies of previous 4-wheel buggies is just one example of the economies practiced. But there was still the matter of the PRR's cash dividend. I think PRR management was just as much a hostage to its shareholders and lender banks then as today's company managements are to institutional shareholders and to the ratings of Wall Street financial analysts. The difference seems to be that, then, cutting the dividend was a good way to drive your stock down, destroy the credit of your company, and start a panic among your stockholders. Today, you can do the same thing just by announcing your earnings are off -- you needn't touch the dividend to start a selloff. I guess my point is that maintaining the dividend was a key to preserving the company's independence. Many another railroad company lost that independence, usually at a most disagreeable price. The Pennsy passed through Dayton on the tracks of the Dayton Union Station Company. DUS had a single track truss bridge at the time of the 1913 flood; I've seen cheery pics of dead horses and other debris hung up in it after the water went down. The replacement bridge came in 1917 according to DUS historian Bob Fink; he modeled one of the three spans on his recently-demolished Dayton Duluth & Western. The renewal spans, of course, were double track and survive to this day. Indeed, they look much like the large steel curved-chord Warren truss bridges the PRR was putting up elsewhere around the system about the same time -- Louisville's PRR bridge is a contemporary, but there are many others. Meantime, Dayton fielded a set of 5 dams upstream 1918-1922 to end flooding in the city. One that's immediately accessible is Huffman dam, just upvalley from the Air Force Museum on the Mad River. Incidentally, Jim Kendig reminds us that the Big Four tracks through Fairborn used to come down that valley, and had to be removed when the dam was built. This NYC line from Columbus and Springfield had to be relocated to the south, and wound up running through Fairfield (present-day Fairborn) alongside the Erie. In fact, the NYC and Erie came to operate their two tracks between Cold Spring (outside Springfield) and Tate's Point (at the edge of Dayton) as a doubletrack railroad. PS - In 1913 the ex-narrow gauge Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern had been part of the Pennsy family less than 20 years. When the flood waters rose in Dayton, Cincinnati also turned into a swimming pool. For some time, the little CL&N (built over the hills, not around them) was the only railroad running into either Dayton or Cincinnati, and assisted greatly with relief efforts staged by surrounding communities. Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Fax 502-426-0089 (for now) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Adoption of electric headlights on PRR Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 16:23:52 -0500 Doug and list: The photo of H9s 3535 in the MR Cyc. is PRR negative No. EE6776. Unfortunately, the caption information is not correct. It isn't a builder's photo. Instead it's an official photograph, one of many taken for various purposes other than documenting new construction. In this case, the photograph was taken on January 14, 1925. The reason was listed as "Midvale Steel Tires". It's unlikely that #3535 was the first PRR locomotive to get an electric headlight. By the way, the headlight on #3535 appears to be a standard PRR oil headlight, which has been electrified by removal of the oil lamp and installation of an electric lamp. Usually the chimney on top of the headlight casing was removed when the headlight was converted to electricity. However, many weren't, as in this case. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Kisala" To: "PRR talk" Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 7:38 AM Subject: [PRR] Adoption of electric headlights on PRR | Hello list, | | I was perusing the MR Cyclopedia Vol 1: Steam | Locomotives for the upteemth time today. | | On page 54 there's a nice shot of H9s 3535. According | to Edson, she was built in October 1913 by Juniata | (making her a late new-built H9s) and scrapped in June | 1950. The photo caption in the Cyc says it's a | builder's photo. What makes it intriguing is that the | engine has a turbogenerator for an electric arc | headlight. | | Most PRR steam didn't get electric lights until after | 1920 (K4s engines 3726-3775 being one of the first | groups of engines built new with electric headlights). | The I1s class built by Baldwin in 1922-23 and the | 3800 series K4s engines were among the first built | with round cased headlights. | | When did PRR start experimenting with electric | headlights and turbogenerators for them? Is H9s 3535 | the first PRR steamer with electric headlights? | | Thanks in advance! | | Doug | | __________________________________________________ | Do You Yahoo!? | Find a job, post your resume. | http://careers.yahoo.com | | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: [PRR] Ballast Color Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 09:08:42 -0600 Hi all, I would like to know what ballast products on the market stand out as "this looks like the ballast the PRR used". Anybody got a favorite brand they use. Also, would anyone like to comment on the use of cinder ballast in yards and on sidings and the standard PRR practices. Thanks in advance, Peter Reinhold Prairie Du Sac, WI. 53578 preinhol@unidie.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 05 Nov 2001 10:31:35 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] superelevation and car tonnage Reply to: superelevation and car tonnage "Ted Andrews" wrote: - -Ore trains would be a reason itself to lower the superelevation. Slow, heavy -trains would put more weight on the inside or lower rail. Over time, the -rail head would flatten out or "mushroom." When the certain stress -thresholds are reached, steel will be plastic and flow albeit slow. Ted, I think the overall trend toward heavier cars in general in the early to mid-60's might also have a reason. The Philadelphia import ore shipments were originally handled in 'regular' hopper cars most likely of 70 ton capacity. Of course, these cars were designed for coal and a full load of ore consisted of a scoopful over each truck-- the train would appear empty as it rolled by, even though the haulers and helpers were in full cry attempting to lift the train to Gallitzin. The ore jennies were also of 70 ton capacity. I assume that PRR probably loaded the 70 ton hoppers with coal to capacity as often as possible, so it doesn't seem that conversion of some of them to ore service would have been a deciding factor. When PRR started handling unit coal trains for Pennsylvania Power and Light (and probably, others) of 100 ton capacity in the mid-60's, we're talking about a 42% increase in tonnage on four axles. That must have had a definite effect on the inner rails of superelevated track, especially given that Pennsy track situation was generally deteriorating as maintenance was deferred in order to keep its dividend/stock price up in anticipation of the PC merger. - -To get back to Horseshoe curve, I think that it is plausible that the -introduction of new freight car equipment such as 75' flatcars would result -in changes in superelevation practices and standards. I think that it was -the 89 foot flatcars of the 1960's revealed that derailments of these cars -were possible when they crossed over from track to track under certain -circumstances. (the turnout "number", the track spacing, the turnout -spacing, the speed, etc.) Interesting. To me, it would seem that KEEPING superelevation would have HELPED reduce the outward forces on curves on light cars such as TT and auto racks due to rear-end helpers, by transferring some of the cars' weight to the inner rail of a curve, thereby helping to reduce a car's tendency to climb the outer rail. Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 10:55:20 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Water Station at Cove From: Jerry Britton I'm looking at a section of track chart from BANKS to VIEW, just west of the Rockville Bridge... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/images/tc_view_banks.jpg Just west of milepost 115 is the emergency water station. I'm trying to place it in "real life". There are two locations nearby (to the west) that have dashed lines across the track. One side has a "P" and one side has an "R". Might this denote a "Public Road"? If so, the first (travelling west) might be the crossing still existing about 1/8 mile before the new Sheetz store and the second up by Dale's Locomotion, across from Big Bee Boats. If this is the code and these are the roads, then it is easy to place the emergency water station just east of the first crossing. There is also a "P----R" designated at about 114.1. There is in existence today a crossing down the hill from the Perdix Fire Company. Again, this is about the right place on the track chart. What protected a train taking on water at this stop, since it was not within an interlocking plant... just the block signals? RELATED: Today the signal bridge at 116 is the distant for BANKS for eastbounds and the distant for CP CANNON (nee BANKS) for westbounds. There were more signal bridges in the 1950's, as the above chart shows, but either I am missing it or the chart does not designate the role of the bridges. The bridge at 114 appears to be the distant for BANKS for eastbounds and the bridge at 118 appears to be the distant for VIEW for westbounds. That would leave the existing bridge at 116 to be a regular block signal. Can anyone expand, refute, or confirm the above? Also, there is a small stub track with a building on the river side, at mile 118.5, just east of VIEW. There would not have been any road access, so it would not have been commercial. Anyone know what this was? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:22:28 EST Subject: [PRR] Ballast Ballast color - like hopper car color - varied from place to place, day to day and even track to track, in the same area. Great example in the most recent Pennsy picture book I purchased from Jerry's Merchandise service (Jerry - insert "plug" here) There is a photo facing West and looking down on a 4 track Horseshoe Curve - the two right hand (West - Upbound) tracks are white with sand - the left hand (Eastbound & down) pair are black with brake shoe dust. Many areas, which had coal, stone or ore movements - primarily in on direction - would have a black, white or orange stripe down the centerline from hopper door leakage - often on one track of a pair or a set, only. In almost all areas, unless brand new, the ballast between the rails was usually darker because of lubricant drip and possible fuel (or cinder) leakage from the locomotives. Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 13:27:26 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Ballast From: Jerry Britton On 11/5/01 1:22 PM, VVA249@aol.com (VVA249@aol.com) wrote: > There is a photo facing West and looking down on a 4 track Horseshoe Curve - > the two right hand (West - Upbound) tracks are white with sand - the left > hand (Eastbound & down) pair are black with brake shoe dust. Many areas, > which had coal, stone or ore movements - primarily in on direction - would > have a black, white or orange stripe down the centerline from hopper door > leakage - often on one track of a pair or a set, only. That's an interesting treatment I hadn't thought of: black brake shoe dust on tracks 1 & 2 and sand on 3 & 4!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 13:30:57 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Water Station at Cove Greetings to Jerry and the list: Just east of the Burley Road grade crossing at Cove, on the south side of the main line, you can see the concrete foundations of the twin water tanks that once fed the water station. This crossing is the one you know as being near the new Sheetz store. On your track chart, the two tanks show up as double circles, but they are intended only to represent the existence of those facilities and the diagram does not show them in correct position or scale with respect to the grade crossing. The notation P---R indicated a private road grade crossing. A public grade crossing was designated by a solid, not dashed, line, and the letter G. The trailing-point switch that led off No. 4 track marked a site where the railroad intended to realign and straighten out the tight curve around the point of the mountain, which was always the sharpest curve between Harrisburg and Altoona. Back at the turn of the (20th) century, the railroad even considered a slightly different approach -- tunneling under the mountain and creating a straight line between about MP 117.7 and 118.7 (near "View") -- to accomplish the same end. Although the tunnel idea did not go forward, PRR did dump fill (reportedly, cinders from the Enola ash pit) over on the river side in what was to have been the first step to changing the right-of-way. In fact, if you look at the 1956 PRR calendar painting by Grif Teller, you can see a bulldozer moving earth at exactly that location. Also, I think you meant to say that the interlocking at CP-Cannon was formerly View, not nee-Banks. Offhand, I'm not sure I agree with your thought that there were more signal bridges in the '50s. I was just a wee lad then but I don't remember seeing any more than the ones shown on your track chart. Hope this helps. Dan Cupper ---------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton wrote: > > I'm looking at a section of track chart from BANKS to VIEW, just west of the > Rockville Bridge... > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/images/tc_view_banks.jpg > > Just west of milepost 115 is the emergency water station. I'm trying to > place it in "real life". > > There are two locations nearby (to the west) that have dashed lines across > the track. One side has a "P" and one side has an "R". Might this denote a > "Public Road"? If so, the first (travelling west) might be the crossing > still existing about 1/8 mile before the new Sheetz store and the second up > by Dale's Locomotion, across from Big Bee Boats. If this is the code and > these are the roads, then it is easy to place the emergency water station > just east of the first crossing. > > There is also a "P----R" designated at about 114.1. There is in existence > today a crossing down the hill from the Perdix Fire Company. Again, this is > about the right place on the track chart. > > What protected a train taking on water at this stop, since it was not within > an interlocking plant... just the block signals? > > RELATED: > > Today the signal bridge at 116 is the distant for BANKS for eastbounds and > the distant for CP CANNON (nee BANKS) for westbounds. > > There were more signal bridges in the 1950's, as the above chart shows, but > either I am missing it or the chart does not designate the role of the > bridges. > > The bridge at 114 appears to be the distant for BANKS for eastbounds and the > bridge at 118 appears to be the distant for VIEW for westbounds. That would > leave the existing bridge at 116 to be a regular block signal. > > Can anyone expand, refute, or confirm the above? > > Also, there is a small stub track with a building on the river side, at mile > 118.5, just east of VIEW. There would not have been any road access, so it > would not have been commercial. Anyone know what this was? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 13:41:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Water Station at Cove From: Jerry Britton On 11/5/01 1:30 PM, Dan Cupper (cupper@worldnet.att.net) wrote: Once again, I shouldn't be surprised to have Mr. Cupper chime in on a "near Harrisburg" subject! > > Just east of the Burley Road grade crossing at Cove, on the south side > of the main line, you can see the concrete foundations of the twin water > tanks that once fed the water station. This crossing is the one you know > as being near the new Sheetz store. Excellent! I'll have to find, measure, and photograph those foundations! > > On your track chart, the two tanks show up as double circles, but they > are intended only to represent the existence of those facilities and the > diagram does not show them in correct position or scale with respect to > the grade crossing. Finding the foundations will give me the info I need. How far east of the grade crossing, roughly (right there, 100 yards, etc.) ? > > The notation P---R indicated a private road grade crossing. A public > grade crossing was designated by a solid, not dashed, line, and the > letter G. For my purposes of understanding, they are interchangeable, but thanks none-the-less! > > The trailing-point switch that led off No. 4 track marked a site where > the railroad intended to realign and straighten out the tight curve > around the point of the mountain, which was always the sharpest curve > between Harrisburg and Altoona. Back at the turn of the (20th) century, > the railroad even considered a slightly different approach -- tunneling > under the mountain and creating a straight line between about MP 117.7 > and 118.7 (near "View") -- to accomplish the same end. Although the > tunnel idea did not go forward, PRR did dump fill (reportedly, cinders > from the Enola ash pit) over on the river side in what was to have been > the first step to changing the right-of-way. In fact, if you look at > the 1956 PRR calendar painting by Grif Teller, you can see a bulldozer > moving earth at exactly that location. So the trailing-point switch was to get the fill in to the area? FWIW: "Triumph IV" discusses both projects to some length. Not only had the PRR considered realignment around the curve, but they also considered construction of a flyover to replace the role of VIEW in realigning passenger traffic onto tracks 1 & 2 into Harrisburg (and freight onto 3 & 4). Can you imagine a flyover across from the Cove Diner? Kinda glad they did not do this! > > Also, I think you meant to say that the interlocking at CP-Cannon was > formerly View, not nee-Banks. Offhand, I'm not sure I agree with your > thought that there were more signal bridges in the '50s. I was just a > wee lad then but I don't remember seeing any more than the ones shown on > your track chart. > You are certainly correct that I meant VIEW, not BANKS. No, I'm not saying there were more than on the chart. However, I think now there are two less than the chart shows, aren't there? The one at Cove at 116 has double signals in both directions, making it a distant signal for the CANNON (nee VIEW) and BANKS interlockings. In the 1950's I believe this bridge had single heads and there was one additional signal bridge on either side of this one. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 13:54:57 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Water Station at Cove Jerry Britton wrote: > > Finding the foundations will give me the info I need. How far east of the > grade crossing, roughly (right there, 100 yards, etc.) ? About 25-35 yards. > > > > So the trailing-point switch was to get the fill in to the area? Yes, a westbound freight would come out of Enola bound for Altoona, with a couple of cars of fill to set off on this track. > No, I'm not saying there were more than on the chart. However, I think now > there are two less than the chart shows, aren't there? The one at Cove at > 116 has double signals in both directions, making it a distant signal for > the CANNON (nee VIEW) and BANKS interlockings. In the 1950's I believe this > bridge had single heads and there was one additional signal bridge on either > side of this one. My misunderstanding. I don't know about two signal bridges fewer than on the chart, but yes, the signal bridge at 117.9 is gone. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 13:57:12 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Water Station at Cove The legend on my 1960 track chart for LOWER Delmarva (DELMAR to Cape Charles) indicates that P---/---R (dashed line crossing the track line) is a private road, and ___/G____ (solid line crossing the track line) is a public grade crossing. My chart even lists the Route number or road name for most of these. Sorry I can't be more help with the issue at hand. Jim McDaniel, waiting for the Delmarva local freight ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Water Station at Cove Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:04:51 -0800 From: "John Cooper" I believe signal system for the entire middle division was either completely replaced or extensively reworked when they did the clearance improvement project for double stacks. A few years ago, I rode the middle division looking out the back window with a 1950 track chart in hand. Offhand, I'd say just about all of the wayside signals were in completely different locations. Many of the signal bridges were simply gone, with new signals mounted on masts. The number plates on all the signals used different conventions too. I took notes about signal placement if you're interested. Interestingly, the signals on the pittburgh division appeared almost completely consistant to the 1950 chart. John > ---------- > From: Jerry Britton[SMTP:jerry@pennsyrr.com] > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:41 AM > To: Dan Cupper > Cc: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: Re: [PRR] Water Station at Cove > > No, I'm not saying there were more than on the chart. However, I think now > there are two less than the chart shows, aren't there? The one at Cove at > 116 has double signals in both directions, making it a distant signal for > the CANNON (nee VIEW) and BANKS interlockings. In the 1950's I believe this > bridge had single heads and there was one additional signal bridge on either > side of this one. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:45:38 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] N6A/N6B Origins documented! In a message dated 11/4/01 11:28:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, jconsoli@paonline.com writes: << Rick, I was thinking of you the other day when I was in at the State Archives (here in Harrisburg) doing some diesel research. If I recall correctly, you had posted something about yourself and others? working on trying to sort out the history/evolution of the N6A, N6B and earlier class cabin cars. If my memory serves me right, you mentioned that the information to figure this out was hard to come by. Am I remembering this correctly? Anyway, if you are looking for this information, I believe at least a good bit of it exists in pretty succinct form. The PRR kept what they called Historical Record Cards for all pieces of rolling stock. The Archives has (at least some) these cards on microfilm. The cabin cards are mixed in with the freight equipment. When I happened to stop on one of the N6B cards while scaning a reel (for diesels), I thought of you. The card I looked at showed the following information, amongst other data for this particular car: PFW&C Ry car #996300 built as NC at Fort Wayne, 8/02: Class changed to N6A, (re)built by PRR Co. at Fort Wayne, 2/17/15 (at a cost of $280): renumbered to #980836 at Conway 5/26/21: Class changed to N6B at Renovo 10/18/41. As far as the offset or centered cupola issue, I thought someone published the info that cars built new as N6A or N6B had center cupolas, the cars rebuilt from the older classes had the offset cupolas - resulting from the shops basically cutting the car at one end and splicing in more body - as we modelers might kitbash a model, leaving the cupola in its original position relative to the un-cut end. Anyway, if you guys are looking for this stuff, it appears to "out there". Jack Consoli >> Jack -- Wow. And again wow! This information will cause unending amounts of excitement, anguish, and horror among Pennsy fans. Imagine being able to take, for instance, the two N6b's assigned to Xenia in 1955 and track them back to their 4-wheel bobber roots. I suspect you have just liberated a group of Lines Westerners from a swamp of guesswork, and have elevated our questions to a library quest. Of course, we don't know what fraction of the cabin fleet is documented here, but even fragmentary info is better than what we have now. If these goodies ever get tabulated, the next quest would be to attempt correlating the window size/position of known cabin photographs to see if any conclusions can be drawn about the original bobber body dictating the final visual result. BTW, my friend Tom Vondruska has hypothesized that center cupola N6's were built new. I've heard others speculate that a pre-existing woodie's body could have been centered on the new steel underframe and then both ends moved out. I have no hard knowledge either way, although I agree with Tom that if I were the car carpenter, I'd think it's less work to move one end rather than both. I need to review what's appeared in the Keystone over the years, but I don't remember an article that pretended to nail any of this down. So I think you've just projected us into new research territory. Again, thank you. Rick Tipton ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Clever Cam is a pen sized digital camera, webcam, and mini-camcorder. Just $79.95 at Youcansave.com. http://us.click.yahoo.com/F11sED/NkNDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:45:38 EST Subject: [PRR] N6A/N6B Origins documented! In a message dated 11/4/01 11:28:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, jconsoli@paonline.com writes: << Rick, I was thinking of you the other day when I was in at the State Archives (here in Harrisburg) doing some diesel research. If I recall correctly, you had posted something about yourself and others? working on trying to sort out the history/evolution of the N6A, N6B and earlier class cabin cars. If my memory serves me right, you mentioned that the information to figure this out was hard to come by. Am I remembering this correctly? Anyway, if you are looking for this information, I believe at least a good bit of it exists in pretty succinct form. The PRR kept what they called Historical Record Cards for all pieces of rolling stock. The Archives has (at least some) these cards on microfilm. The cabin cards are mixed in with the freight equipment. When I happened to stop on one of the N6B cards while scaning a reel (for diesels), I thought of you. The card I looked at showed the following information, amongst other data for this particular car: PFW&C Ry car #996300 built as NC at Fort Wayne, 8/02: Class changed to N6A, (re)built by PRR Co. at Fort Wayne, 2/17/15 (at a cost of $280): renumbered to #980836 at Conway 5/26/21: Class changed to N6B at Renovo 10/18/41. As far as the offset or centered cupola issue, I thought someone published the info that cars built new as N6A or N6B had center cupolas, the cars rebuilt from the older classes had the offset cupolas - resulting from the shops basically cutting the car at one end and splicing in more body - as we modelers might kitbash a model, leaving the cupola in its original position relative to the un-cut end. Anyway, if you guys are looking for this stuff, it appears to "out there". Jack Consoli >> Jack -- Wow. And again wow! This information will cause unending amounts of excitement, anguish, and horror among Pennsy fans. Imagine being able to take, for instance, the two N6b's assigned to Xenia in 1955 and track them back to their 4-wheel bobber roots. I suspect you have just liberated a group of Lines Westerners from a swamp of guesswork, and have elevated our questions to a library quest. Of course, we don't know what fraction of the cabin fleet is documented here, but even fragmentary info is better than what we have now. If these goodies ever get tabulated, the next quest would be to attempt correlating the window size/position of known cabin photographs to see if any conclusions can be drawn about the original bobber body dictating the final visual result. BTW, my friend Tom Vondruska has hypothesized that center cupola N6's were built new. I've heard others speculate that a pre-existing woodie's body could have been centered on the new steel underframe and then both ends moved out. I have no hard knowledge either way, although I agree with Tom that if I were the car carpenter, I'd think it's less work to move one end rather than both. I need to review what's appeared in the Keystone over the years, but I don't remember an article that pretended to nail any of this down. So I think you've just projected us into new research territory. Again, thank you. Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:59:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] N6A/N6B Origins documented! Rick and lists: I think your first paragraph hits the nail right on the head - excitement, anguish and horror. First off, the records mentioned by Jack Consoli are not complete. The full series title is "Historical Record Cards for Retired Freight Cars, ca. 1950-1967". Cabin cars scrapped before 1950 or after 1967 are not included. Also, the information given is not always complete or accurate. For example, another series, "Lines West Historical Books: Freight Car Equipment", shows car #996300 not as a plain NC, but as an NC with "High Cupola". In other words, the same cupola as on an NE or N6A. Second, there are many sources of cabin car information at the Penna. State Archives. This might seem to be good news, but it greatly complicates the mission of trying to gather all the data, to say nothing of making sense of it. For example, I've spent some 67 full days at the State Archives and am not nearly done taking data. Admittedly, not all the time was spent on cabin cars. Third, while all of the records are official PRR primary sources, they are of varying legibility and accuracy. Most of the records are hand written and tough to decipher. That old saw our teachers told us about how clear and legible handwriting was in the old days was a lie. As for accuracy, Al Buchan asked me to help with the cabin car section of his book on the Erie & Pittsburgh. This was a tiny portion of the PRR, whose 38 cabin cars ca. 1920 represented only about 1% of the total. Among five different sets of official records, I found factual conflicts involving 18 of the cars. Just gathering this small amount of information and resolving the conflicting data took many days of effort. So, the information IS there, but obtaining it and resolving conflicts for all the cabin cars (or even just all the N6a and N6b cars) will take a major effort. Anything less will simply perpetuate errors and misinformation. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; ; Cc: ; "ROBERT L JOHNSON" Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 2:45 PM Subject: [PRR-FAX] N6A/N6B Origins documented! | Jack -- | | Wow. And again wow! This information will cause unending amounts of | excitement, anguish, and horror among Pennsy fans. Imagine being able to | take, for instance, the two N6b's assigned to Xenia in 1955 and track them | back to their 4-wheel bobber roots. | | I suspect you have just liberated a group of Lines Westerners from a swamp of | guesswork, and have elevated our questions to a library quest. Of course, we | don't know what fraction of the cabin fleet is documented here, but even | fragmentary info is better than what we have now. If these goodies ever get | tabulated, the next quest would be to attempt correlating the window | size/position of known cabin photographs to see if any conclusions can be | drawn about the original bobber body dictating the final visual result. | | BTW, my friend Tom Vondruska has hypothesized that center cupola N6's were | built new. I've heard others speculate that a pre-existing woodie's body | could have been centered on the new steel underframe and then both ends moved | out. I have no hard knowledge either way, although I agree with Tom that if | I were the car carpenter, I'd think it's less work to move one end rather | than both. | | I need to review what's appeared in the Keystone over the years, but I don't | remember an article that pretended to nail any of this down. So I think | you've just projected us into new research territory. | | Again, thank you. | | Rick Tipton "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] N6A/N6B Origins documented! Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:59:02 -0500 Rick and lists: I think your first paragraph hits the nail right on the head - excitement, anguish and horror. First off, the records mentioned by Jack Consoli are not complete. The full series title is "Historical Record Cards for Retired Freight Cars, ca. 1950-1967". Cabin cars scrapped before 1950 or after 1967 are not included. Also, the information given is not always complete or accurate. For example, another series, "Lines West Historical Books: Freight Car Equipment", shows car #996300 not as a plain NC, but as an NC with "High Cupola". In other words, the same cupola as on an NE or N6A. Second, there are many sources of cabin car information at the Penna. State Archives. This might seem to be good news, but it greatly complicates the mission of trying to gather all the data, to say nothing of making sense of it. For example, I've spent some 67 full days at the State Archives and am not nearly done taking data. Admittedly, not all the time was spent on cabin cars. Third, while all of the records are official PRR primary sources, they are of varying legibility and accuracy. Most of the records are hand written and tough to decipher. That old saw our teachers told us about how clear and legible handwriting was in the old days was a lie. As for accuracy, Al Buchan asked me to help with the cabin car section of his book on the Erie & Pittsburgh. This was a tiny portion of the PRR, whose 38 cabin cars ca. 1920 represented only about 1% of the total. Among five different sets of official records, I found factual conflicts involving 18 of the cars. Just gathering this small amount of information and resolving the conflicting data took many days of effort. So, the information IS there, but obtaining it and resolving conflicts for all the cabin cars (or even just all the N6a and N6b cars) will take a major effort. Anything less will simply perpetuate errors and misinformation. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; ; Cc: ; "ROBERT L JOHNSON" Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 2:45 PM Subject: [PRR-FAX] N6A/N6B Origins documented! | Jack -- | | Wow. And again wow! This information will cause unending amounts of | excitement, anguish, and horror among Pennsy fans. Imagine being able to | take, for instance, the two N6b's assigned to Xenia in 1955 and track them | back to their 4-wheel bobber roots. | | I suspect you have just liberated a group of Lines Westerners from a swamp of | guesswork, and have elevated our questions to a library quest. Of course, we | don't know what fraction of the cabin fleet is documented here, but even | fragmentary info is better than what we have now. If these goodies ever get | tabulated, the next quest would be to attempt correlating the window | size/position of known cabin photographs to see if any conclusions can be | drawn about the original bobber body dictating the final visual result. | | BTW, my friend Tom Vondruska has hypothesized that center cupola N6's were | built new. I've heard others speculate that a pre-existing woodie's body | could have been centered on the new steel underframe and then both ends moved | out. I have no hard knowledge either way, although I agree with Tom that if | I were the car carpenter, I'd think it's less work to move one end rather | than both. | | I need to review what's appeared in the Keystone over the years, but I don't | remember an article that pretended to nail any of this down. So I think | you've just projected us into new research territory. | | Again, thank you. | | Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:20:53 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] N6A/N6B Origins documented! I can attest to Bob's tenacity in trying to sort out the E&P cabin data. There is no doubt about it, Bob does nice work. Bob has also become quite adept at moving map files from South Jersey to Lewistown for the archives. Ask him the next time you see him. I think he will be doing a commercial for U-Haul truck rentals in the near future. It is rumored to be titled "Making Memories in Moving with Bob and Judy." ;^) Al "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] N6A/N6B Origins documented! Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:20:53 -0500 I can attest to Bob's tenacity in trying to sort out the E&P cabin data. There is no doubt about it, Bob does nice work. Bob has also become quite adept at moving map files from South Jersey to Lewistown for the archives. Ask him the next time you see him. I think he will be doing a commercial for U-Haul truck rentals in the near future. It is rumored to be titled "Making Memories in Moving with Bob and Judy." ;^) Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 21:04:28 -0500 From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Equipment - Vol 2 Picked up Volume 2 at Gaithersburg this weekend. It's very nice. Apparently, it's only going to be available from Dave Sweetland or from Bob at shows. John Ryan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 21:15:57 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Cumberland Valley Branch at LEMO From: Jerry Britton Anyone know when the second track of the Cumberland Valley Branch was torn up through LEMO? Please cite sources and photos, if available. A pre-1938 (pre-electrification) aerial shot shows two tracks on the CV through LEMO and onto the bridge into Harrisburg. A "mid-1950's" shot shows only one track. I am trying to determine what was there in 1954 since the above is not specific. The 9/54 Employee Timetable lists different types of data for the CV, but always starts at LEMO, not at Harrisburg. For instance, instructions for "Two Track Operation" are included for the span of LEMO to Dillsburg. But that could be taken to mean two tracks into the beginning (west end) of the interlocking plant. I want to know how many tracks actually hit the diamond crossing with the twin tracks of the Northern Central. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hipes" Subject: [PRR] PRR 980718 Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 04:44:32 Can someone please help me identify the class of PRR 980718, a wood caboose that was scrapped sometime during the early 1960s? Thanks in advance, Steve Hipes _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 980718 Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 23:02:33 -0600 Steve wrote-- > Can someone please help me identify the class of PRR 980718, a wood caboose > that was scrapped sometime during the early 1960s? > N6b Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 06:25:38 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Life Like HH-1's From: Jerry Britton HO scalers are in for a real treat. The long awaited Life Like Heritage Series 2-8-8-2's have shipped. These are class HH-1's. If only PRR modelers could get more steam locos in a ready-to-run state such as this...beautiful!!! I'm sure we'll get a thorough review out of Bruce Smith once he receives his unit! ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] PRR 980718 Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 06:49:35 -0500 Steve and list, 980718 was an N6b assigned in 1958 to the Buckeye region on train Columbus B-CN 29-30. Hope that helped, Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JRobb123@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 06:57:03 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like HH-1's Would it be feasible for Life-Like to offer this locomotive, as well as the others in the Heritage Series, in kit form? I am an avid locomotive kit builder and Pennsy fan that would relish the opportunity to build a locomotive kit that incorporates this level of detail right out of the box. I have enjoyed building many of their Proto 2000 car kits and consider them to be very well engineered and executed. As always economics is a factor. Is there enough of a locomotive builder customer base to support such an endeavor? Just some thoughts. Joe Robbins Marblehead, MA. In a message dated 11/06/2001 6:31:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: HO scalers are in for a real treat. The long awaited Life Like Heritage Series 2-8-8-2's have shipped. These are class HH-1's. If only PRR modelers could get more steam locos in a ready-to-run state such as this...beautiful!!! I'm sure we'll get a thorough review out of Bruce Smith once he receives his unit! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "WaltP" Subject: [PRR] T1 (6110/6111) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 07:02:03 -0500 Gentlemen, I have a few questions concerning those two locomotives. 1) Did the original pair of T1's retain their unique lettering throughout their careers, or was their lettering scheme simplified to match their newer brothers, later in their lives? 2) When were they destined for the torch? And what was their assignment in 1952? The reason for the questions is that I have a Westside T1 which needs refinishing and with Champ closing their doors shortly I would like to order the correct decal before it is too late. Thanks for the info. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRR5499@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like HH-1's Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 13:58:59 +0000 Jerry , I'v seen these at the local dealer in town. Question..where is the"dog house"? Can one be supplied with the model. Do you think the lettering is correct? Also on the undec models,do they have the same color smoke-box front? I was thinking of getting two,but I.m stuck between the PRR,and undec version because of the lettering. Also to be correct you have to move the second sand dome [from front] toward the cab a couple of feet. Hate to be a stickler,but I like to be as close as possible. P.S. "E" me a price for two. Thanks, Ed Case > HO scalers are in for a real treat. The long awaited Life Like Heritage > Series 2-8-8-2's have shipped. These are class HH-1's. > > If only PRR modelers could get more steam locos in a ready-to-run state such > as this...beautiful!!! > > I'm sure we'll get a thorough review out of Bruce Smith once he receives his > unit! ;-) > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:13:14 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like HH-1's Joe asks: >Would it be feasible for Life-Like to offer this locomotive, as well as the >others in the Heritage Series, in kit form? I am an avid locomotive kit >builder and Pennsy fan that would relish the opportunity to build a >locomotive kit that incorporates this level of detail right out of the box. Well...never say never, but in this case I'm tempted! First, it would take a major redesign of the loco parts for it to be a saleable kit. A really good kit (like most Tichy products) requires it to be designed as such. Then there are the customer support issues (directions, help for people who can't read the directions or ignore them, etc...). Finally, LL P2K has never offerred a loco kit, and if you've noticed they are making their car kits more RTR every day! I would not expect them to head in the other direction. In fact, I think we get a good glimpse of the state of loco kits by the apparent "backing off" of Bowser regarding the J1. With the economy as uncertain as it has been the past 6 mos., I expect to see an overall slow down in the offerings available across the whole modeling spectrum...but it is a good time to stock up on brass on ebay as folks sell off their excess holdings to pay for their habits . Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Passenger Equipment - Vol 2 Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:28:27 -0600 I have seen it in shows in Chicago, where neither gentleman is present. -----Original Message----- From: John F. Ryan, Jr. [mailto:RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 8:04 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Equipment - Vol 2 Picked up Volume 2 at Gaithersburg this weekend. It's very nice. Apparently, it's only going to be available from Dave Sweetland or from Bob at shows. John Ryan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like HH-1's Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:32:11 -0500 I have to agree with Bruce. The closest Life Like has come to a kit in the Proto-2000 line is placing the body on the chassis for their diesel line. I do not think that they will offer a steam loco kit. If the reason for desiring a kit is to decrease the cost, I don't think it will happen. However, Life Like DOES offer a kit of sorts with their undecorated versions of the 2-8-8-2. Each of the decorated 2-8-8-2's was detailed with specific parts to more properly represent the prototype being modeled. The undecorated loco offered in a run represents one of the locos offered in the run but the also contain ALL of the parts used to make each locomotive from that series. [AD] We still have access to all three undecorated versions with the extra parts. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Signals on Middle/Pgh Divs; was: Water Station at Cove Date: Tue, 6 Nov 101 10:12:54 -0500 (EST) John Cooper scribit: > > I believe signal system for the entire middle division was either > completely replaced or extensively reworked when they did the > clearance improvement project for double stacks. A few years ago, > I rode the middle division looking out the back window with a 1950 > track chart in hand. Offhand, I'd say just about all of the wayside > signals were in completely different locations. Many of the signal > bridges were simply gone, with new signals mounted on masts. The > number plates on all the signals used different conventions too. > I took notes about signal placement if you're interested. > Interestingly, the signals on the pittburgh division appeared almost > completely consistant to the 1950 chart. John et al.: Harrisburg to Pittsburgh was reworked and resignalled by Conrail in basically 3 spurts. The first was the Pittsburgh Division, from Conpitt Jct. to downtown Pittsburgh. By the time of a summer 1983 railfan trip I undertook with a high school friend, all of those towers were out of service or actually gone, and the main line was reduced to 2 tracks. This entire stretch of line, including the Conemaugh Line, were controlled from the dispatchers' desk in Green Tree, south of Pittsburgh. We were lucky to get to see that installation. It is NOT the current one. PITT tower was one of the last to go, apparently closed not long before our trip. Pittsburgh to Conway Yard towers were also gone, exclusive of EAST CONWAY, which remains open to this day. Unfortunately, I have essentially no documentation of what changed occurred when. Next was the Middle Division. This was reduced from 3 tracks to 2 around 1985-1987 if memory serves. For this stretch, I have extensive documentation in the form of a nearly complete set of Bulletin Orders that show what was removed when, and which I could pull out if there is a strong need. I do recall some degree of repositioning of signals. Entirely new interlockings were created too. The stretch remaining, i.e. ALTO to SG, was done in the 90s. I have little to no documentation of this. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Passenger Equipment - Vol 2 Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 15:47:13 +0000 Listers: By the way, what passenger cars does Volume 2 cover? TIA Ted Andrews >From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" >To: "'John F. Ryan, Jr.'" , PRR-Talk > >Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Passenger Equipment - Vol 2 >Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:28:27 -0600 > >I have seen it in shows in Chicago, where neither gentleman is present. > >-----Original Message----- >From: John F. Ryan, Jr. [mailto:RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net] >Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 8:04 PM >To: PRR-Talk >Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Equipment - Vol 2 > > >Picked up Volume 2 at Gaithersburg this weekend. It's very nice. >Apparently, it's only going to be available from Dave Sweetland or from >Bob at shows. > >John Ryan > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Passenger Equipment - Vol 2 Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:48:09 -0600 >From what I saw when I inspected the book, sleeping cars. May have included parlors. -----Original Message----- From: Ted Andrews [mailto:ted_andrews@msn.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 9:47 AM To: cadwelml@bp.com; RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Passenger Equipment - Vol 2 Listers: By the way, what passenger cars does Volume 2 cover? TIA Ted Andrews >From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" >To: "'John F. Ryan, Jr.'" , PRR-Talk > >Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Passenger Equipment - Vol 2 >Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:28:27 -0600 > >I have seen it in shows in Chicago, where neither gentleman is present. > >-----Original Message----- >From: John F. Ryan, Jr. [mailto:RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net] >Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 8:04 PM >To: PRR-Talk >Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Equipment - Vol 2 > > >Picked up Volume 2 at Gaithersburg this weekend. It's very nice. >Apparently, it's only going to be available from Dave Sweetland or from >Bob at shows. > >John Ryan > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 10:58:39 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Passenger Equipment - Vol 2 From: Jerry Britton I have contacted Dave Sweetland directly. This second volume is indeed out, but will only be available direct UNTIL the first of the year, at which time normal dealer channels will have access. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson PRR/ Penn Central Art) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 20:21:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] T1 (6110/6111) Hello Walt & list. PRR's original T-1 6110 was rebuilt and she looked like the rest of the later production T-1s. But she still had the sharp pointed nose. I thought that 6110/6111 went to the scrap line as built. There is a photo of 6110 at the end of her career in "Rails to Pittsburgh" on page 55. Too bad Pennsy didn't save one or two!!! Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 23:38:42 -0500 From: "David (Fresh) Freshwater" Subject: Re: [PRR] Round roof-no doors. It took me almost a month to get some info on this because of travel and what not. The source is my dad, who worked in the Shipping Department at Weirton from the early 1950s until the mid-1980s. Dad said that they were 50 foot round roof cars that Weirton had purchased from the PRR. That would make the cars in question ex-PRR X32s. Purchasing cars second hand was pretty common for Weirton. My copy of the Jan 1953 ORER is missing right now, but Weirton is listed in there with a fleet of box cars and others. They only had a few cars that were cleared for interchange - they were tank cars used to ship in and out lube oil and such for the machines in the mill - like the rolling mills. The cars would only carry about 115,000 pounds, so they never looked like they were fully loaded. The bars across the doors were for convenience, to keep the steel coils from rolling out. Having heard some of the mill stories, I can guess that the doors got pretty beaten up quickly. So the bars across the doors saved maintenance cost. Weirton Steel did have a mill building over in Steubenville in the 1950s. Some coils were shipped from the hot mill or tandem mill over there for finishing. Dad worked in shipping over there for a while. But, what was not commonly known was that there was a deal between Weirton and Wheeling Steel to process each others product when the other company got an order that they couldn't handle on their own. When that was the case, they'd ship the coils between the plants, just like the movements mentioned. (Dad also mentioned that, at least once, Weirton bought an order of steel from U.S. Steel and finished it and shipped it off to Weirton's customers.) Another little known fact: When the shipping department ordered in 10 rail cars, 6 would come from the Pennsy and 4 from the B&O. In order to do some of the movements in Steubenville, they had to move either across or on B&O rails. This was either a pay back for trackage rights or just giving everyone a little piece of the business. Thanks for another excuse to pick Dad's brain. Sorry it took so long to do it and provide the info. Dave Freshwater Doug Day wrote: > List, > > Talking to a fellow SPF here in the Panhandle Division yesterday and he was > telling me that probably in the late 50's that there were round roof boxcars > with no doors being sent from Weirton, WV across the bridge to Steubenville, > OH. Upon inspection one day he saw that there were 2 steel coils in each > end of the car. He thinks that they were travelling incognito from Weirton > Steel to then Wheeling Steel to fill orders. He mentioned that there was a > very heavy steel bar across the doorway held on by a couple of "S" clips and > felt that they were only removeable by a forklift or something. Anybody > have any info on this or photos? Guess this is one of the rarities that > took place on the Panhandle Division. > > Doug > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 05:08:49 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] The N6 Cabin Car Follies of 2001 (long) First Jack Consoli wrote: In a message dated 11/4/01 11:28:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, jconsoli@paonline.com writes: << Rick, I was thinking of you the other day when I was in at the State Archives (here in Harrisburg) doing some diesel research. If I recall correctly, you had posted something about yourself and others? working on trying to sort out the history/evolution of the N6A, N6B and earlier class cabin cars. If my memory serves me right, you mentioned that the information to figure this out was hard to come by. Am I remembering this correctly? Anyway, if you are looking for this information, I believe at least a good bit of it exists in pretty succinct form. The PRR kept what they called Historical Record Cards for all pieces of rolling stock. The Archives has (at least some) these cards on microfilm. The cabin cards are mixed in with the freight equipment. When I happened to stop on one of the N6B cards while scaning a reel (for diesels), I thought of you. The card I looked at showed the f