Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 05:50:04 -0800 (PST) From: Dan Staron Subject: [PRR] flood book I'm in need of some help with the following book. A friend is trying to purchase my extra copy but we are at odds over the fair market price of this book. Since it is a book prepared for the Management of the Pennsylvania lines west I assume it is somewhat rare. Any help on pricing from the list members would help I don't want to take chances at auction. the book is Pennsylvania Lines West of Pittsburgh: A History of the Flood of March, 1913. by Garrett, Chas. W. Pittsburgh, PA: Wm. G. Johnston & Co., c1913, p.257, illus., cm. Any help would be apprecated __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Dividends? Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:00:51 -0600 As indicated, the prohibition against working a second job is not simply a PRR edict. Some companies employed this policy well into the 70s. I worked for one. -----Original Message----- From: Charles Ring [mailto:charlesr@infonline.net] Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 5:53 PM To: Gregg Mahlkov Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dividends? Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > Charles' > > The prohibition against working a second job was not a PRR edict alone. Most > railroads had this, especially for those who were "on call" or salaried. > Salaried employees were considered "on duty" 168 hours per week. do present day railroads still do this? > > > PRR also forbade non-agreement employees from living in what is now referred > to as "manufactured housing" and was then known as house trailers. > i didnt know about that one. was the reason simply "keeping up appearances" or something more? i suspect there was little trouble with that rule since those it applied to could well afford better. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 09:23:26 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] New Walthers Passenger Cars Someone on the Passenger car list passed the word that Walthers has just announced four new HO cars. One is an REA Express reefer (stealing the thunder from the long overdue Branchline kit) and another appears to be a Congo Parlor Car! Will Walthers be doing the whole Congo/Senator??? :-)))) http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-6241 http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-6445 http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-6421 http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-6405 -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 09:24:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] flood book From: Jerry Britton On 11/1/01 8:50 AM, Dan Staron (norats00@yahoo.com) wrote: > I'm in need of some help with the following book. A > friend is trying to purchase my extra copy but we are > at odds over the fair market price of this book. > > Since it is a book prepared for the Management of the > Pennsylvania lines west I assume it is somewhat rare. > > Any help on pricing from the list members would help I > don't want to take chances at auction. > > the book is > > Pennsylvania Lines West of Pittsburgh: A History of > the Flood of March, 1913. by Garrett, Chas. W. > Pittsburgh, PA: Wm. G. Johnston & Co., c1913, p.257, > illus., cm. > I can't speak for that book, but all of the PRR Flood books are very rare. I can't remember seeing one go on eBay for less than $100, though I've never seen them over $200 either. I won't say what I paid for a copy of the 1936-1937 Floods book! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 09:28:39 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Buildings in Harrisburg - Harrisburg Patriot-News From: Jerry Britton Earlier this week there was an inquiry about what buildings existed along the right-of-way through Harrisburg. I had submitted, due to valuation maps, that the Harrisburg Patriot-News may not have yet existed. The map was still showing team tracks at that location. Esteemed lister Dan Cupper suggested that the Patriot News building was built in the early 1950's. He recounted construction being affected by the Korean Conflict. Well "Kudos to Dan"... I e-mailed the patriot news and received the following reply: > In response to your e-mail to John Kirkpatrick, editor/publisher, > construction started on The Patriot-News plant at 812 Market St. on Jan. 2, > 1952. The first newspaper off the press was The Patriot on July 6, 1953. Thanks, Dan! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 09:30:05 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] R50B From: Jerry Britton On 10/31/01 3:06 PM, Mark Franke (mfranke@cox.rr.com) wrote: > Looking for photos/lettering diagrams for PRR R50 B reefers . Any help would > be great Looking for someone to manufacture them in N and HO scales in plastic or resin. That would be even greater!!! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:46:23 EST Subject: [PRR] New Walthers Passenger Cars In a message dated 11/1/01 8:32:45 AM Central Standard Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << One is an REA Express reefer (stealing the thunder from the long overdue Branchline kit) >> The Walthers car is the riveted mid to late 50's car. The Branchline kit test shots I have seen were for the 1947 welded car, useful to modelers of earlier eras. That parlor lounge looks like a Congo car---anyone care to comment? I guess the other two cars are ATSF. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 09:52:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] New Walthers Passenger Cars From: Jerry Britton On 11/1/01 9:46 AM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: > In a message dated 11/1/01 8:32:45 AM Central Standard Time, > asmiller@mitre.org writes: > > << One is an REA Express reefer (stealing the > thunder from the long overdue Branchline kit) >> > > The Walthers car is the riveted mid to late 50's car. The Branchline kit > test shots I have seen were for the 1947 welded car, useful to modelers of > earlier eras. That parlor lounge looks like a Congo car---anyone care to > comment? I guess the other two cars are ATSF. > The Branchline car is the earlier car, and is offered in several liveries. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:56:19 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] R50B Mark asked: >Looking for photos/lettering diagrams for PRR R50 B reefers . Any help would >be great Mark, Photos: PRR color guide I Pennsy Power III http://www.trainweb.org/jssand/Foreign/PRR.htm Lettering guide: The PRRT&HS published book on passenger cars (I'm blanking on the title) Note that these cars were Tuscan, with "buff" lettering (never gold). Sunshine Models has announced that they are producing an R50b in HO scale. I'm willing to bet that the release will be timed to coincide with the 2002 PRRT&HS meeting ;^) So, save your pennies, 'cause these will be verrrrrry nice! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:20:04 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] New Walthers Passenger Cars Andy asks: >Someone on the Passenger car list passed the word that Walthers has just >announced four new HO cars. One is an REA Express reefer (stealing the >thunder from the long overdue Branchline kit) and another appears to be >a Congo Parlor Car! Will Walthers be doing the whole Congo/Senator??? We can all wish, but the Walthers philosophy regarding passenger cars seems to indicate that this is not the plan :^( They are focusing on cars that can be used on multiple railraods with a common Amtrak theme rather than filling out particular train consists. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:36:54 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] New Walthers Passenger Cars In a message dated 11/1/01 9:09:27 AM Central Standard Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes (re the REA car) : << In my 15 minutes of fame, I had my one and only MR article published on that kitbash. >> Which I remember very well as giving the best tip I have had yet on matching REA green (Japan Navy Green). Thank you. As a matter of fact, to these tired eyes, that JNG (starting another esoteric acronym:-)) matches the REA green on the decals from Sunshine. Speaking of the pre-Apple Green color, of course. Question to the list: anyone got photo or consist evidence of those ATSF s.s. baggage cars in Pennsy East-West consists in late 40's,early 50's era, if they were around that early (haven't checked the build date on the Walthers car--a question for the Passenger Car List) Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] R50B Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:25:07 -0600 Did not Kicekl Plate Products and Custom Brass (and maybe Rail Works) produce these cars in brass? -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 8:56 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] R50B Mark asked: >Looking for photos/lettering diagrams for PRR R50 B reefers . Any help would >be great Mark, Photos: PRR color guide I Pennsy Power III http://www.trainweb.org/jssand/Foreign/PRR.htm Lettering guide: The PRRT&HS published book on passenger cars (I'm blanking on the title) Note that these cars were Tuscan, with "buff" lettering (never gold). Sunshine Models has announced that they are producing an R50b in HO scale. I'm willing to bet that the release will be timed to coincide with the 2002 PRRT&HS meeting ;^) So, save your pennies, 'cause these will be verrrrrry nice! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 11:22:46 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: RE: [PRR] R50B Marvin asks: >Did not Kicekl Plate Products and Custom Brass (and maybe Rail Works) >produce these cars in brass? I think at least 4 brass versions have been sold. I believe that both NPP and CB have sold R50bs. Rail Classics offered a very nice car a few years back, but these are very rare (and expensive) on the market. I personally like the Precision car (Iron Horse) as it is very detailed and usually around $100 on the open market (that said, I haven't seen on of these recently either!) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 12:32:00 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] R50B In a message dated 11/1/01 10:32:52 AM Central Standard Time, cadwelml@bp.com writes: << Did not Nickel Plate Products and Custom Brass (and maybe Rail Works) produce these cars in brass? >> Dont force me to go in that storage locker :-)! I am guessing, but I have two, one I think is Alco or Alpha (?) unpainted and one is PSC painted by the Koreans in a strange shade of purple. The first was a bargain and is on my list of early paint jobs. The second will undergo heavy weathering as long as the color is so bilious anyway. I also (somewhere) have an old Cannonball kit which looks to have nice (though brittle) sides, but the roof was too daunting to attempt. Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: [PRR] R50 Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:59:48 -0600 Jerry said " Looking for someone to manufacture them in N and HO scales in plastic or resin. That would be even greater!!! ;-)" Talking to Martin L. of Sunshine Models at the Naperville PMS meet and the R50 sounds like its coming soon. That's HO scale, sorry Jerry. Peter Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] R50 Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 14:19:49 -0500 Listers, Peter wrote: "Talking to Martin L. of Sunshine Models at the Naperville PMS meet and the R50 sounds like its coming soon." Our prayers are answered. I will buy one which will guarantee that it will come out in plastic within 6 months! Which then leads to the predicament of having one very detailed Sunshine car in amongst the plastic ones. Solved by not building the Sunshine car:) Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] R50 Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 19:22:51 +0000 Peter and the List: Is the Sunshine Models R50 going to be plastic, resin, or brass? TIA Ted Andrews Carmel, Ind. >From: Peter Reinhold >Reply-To: "preinhol@unidie.com" >To: "PRR-Talk (E-mail)" >Subject: [PRR] R50 >Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 08:59:48 -0600 > >Jerry said " >Looking for someone to manufacture them in N and HO scales in plastic or >resin. That would be even greater!!! ;-)" > >Talking to Martin L. of Sunshine Models at the Naperville PMS meet and the >R50 sounds like its coming soon. That's HO scale, sorry Jerry. > > >Peter Reinhold > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 14:23:49 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] R50 From: Jerry Britton On 11/1/01 9:59 AM, Peter Reinhold (preinhol@unidie.com) wrote: > Looking for someone to manufacture them in N and HO scales in plastic or > resin. That would be even greater!!! ;-)" > > Talking to Martin L. of Sunshine Models at the Naperville PMS meet and the R50 > sounds like its coming soon. That's HO scale, sorry Jerry. > > Sunshine was talking of this model two years ago at the convention. I'm sure it will come, in time. But what about plastic or resin, for the masses? Bethlehem Car Works was also considering an HO R50b at one time. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: FW: [PRR] R50 Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:36:45 -0600 > > Talking to Martin L. of Sunshine Models at the Naperville PMS meet and the R50 > sounds like its coming soon. That's HO scale, sorry Jerry. > > Sunshine was talking of this model two years ago at the convention. I'm sure it will come, in time. But what about plastic or resin, for the masses? SunShine Models is resin. Pete Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: RE: [PRR] R50 Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:43:55 -0600 Listers, Peter wrote: "Talking to Martin L. of Sunshine Models at the Naperville PMS meet and the R50 sounds like its coming soon." Our prayers are answered. I will buy one which will guarantee that it will come out in plastic within 6 months! Which then leads to the predicament of having one very detailed Sunshine car in amongst the plastic ones. Solved by not building the Sunshine car:) Chris Chany Chris, I missed the plastic X37's, G27, and G29 some how. VBG. Pete Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 13:54:03 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] R50 Ted asks: > >Is the Sunshine Models R50 going to be plastic, resin, or brass? Resin for sure. Also, Martin isn't really into the one piece body in the way that Al Westerfield is, so expect it to be a "flat" kit. Chris, I'll be happy to put yours together for you (that's a $75 charge, of course ). Honestly, I LOVE to assemble these kits - I don't find it difficult with the right tools. For all of you with "Westerfear" as Mr. Teichmoeller calls it, you should buy Al's "how to video"...it makes it easy, it only costs about $7 and you can get a rebate when you buy a kit! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] R50 Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 15:22:57 -0500 Pete, Sorry, didn't buy those however I have a nice Sunshine Turtle roof box car kit I'd be willing to sell ya. Chris -----Original Message----- From: Peter Reinhold [mailto:preinhol@unidie.com] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 2:44 PM To: PRR-Talk (E-mail) Subject: RE: [PRR] R50 Listers, Peter wrote: "Talking to Martin L. of Sunshine Models at the Naperville PMS meet and the R50 sounds like its coming soon." Our prayers are answered. I will buy one which will guarantee that it will come out in plastic within 6 months! Which then leads to the predicament of having one very detailed Sunshine car in amongst the plastic ones. Solved by not building the Sunshine car:) Chris Chany Chris, I missed the plastic X37's, G27, and G29 some how. VBG. Pete Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 15:39:58 -0500 From: James Stob Subject: Re: [PRR] flood book Hi Dan, The book is indeed rare, and if in excellent condition, can command anywhere from $200 to $500. I have one myself (as well as the '37 flood book published by PRR), and they are both treasured. Go to Alibris, or search our other book appraisers on the internet, and you will find the 1913 flood book to be available from a few retail book dealers for the amounts I mentioned earlier. Best regards, Jim Stob PRRT&HS 6951 Dan Staron wrote: > I'm in need of some help with the following book. A > friend is trying to purchase my extra copy but we are > at odds over the fair market price of this book. > > Since it is a book prepared for the Management of the > Pennsylvania lines west I assume it is somewhat rare. > > Any help on pricing from the list members would help I > don't want to take chances at auction. > > the book is > > Pennsylvania Lines West of Pittsburgh: A History of > the Flood of March, 1913. by Garrett, Chas. W. > Pittsburgh, PA: Wm. G. Johnston & Co., c1913, p.257, > illus., cm. > > Any help would be apprecated > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > http://personals.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Franke" Subject: Re: [PRR] R50B Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:17:14 -0500 N.J International has made then in brass in Nscale as I have acquired a few recently I suspect the were made in the early 80's. I recently saw one on Ebay. Will try to find the listing Mark Franke ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Britton To: Mark Franke ; PRR-Talk LIST ; PRR-n_scale Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 9:30 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] R50B > On 10/31/01 3:06 PM, Mark Franke (mfranke@cox.rr.com) wrote: > > > Looking for photos/lettering diagrams for PRR R50 B reefers . Any help would > > be great > > Looking for someone to manufacture them in N and HO scales in plastic or > resin. That would be even greater!!! ;-) > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Franke" Subject: Re: [PRR] R50B Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 00:29:26 -0500 Does anyone have a copy of the PRRT&HS passenger car book. If so a scan or a zerox of the R50B would be appreciated. The book is out of print and the last one on eBay went for morethan $75.00(ouch) Thanks ahead of time Mark Franke mfranke@cox.rr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. To: Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 9:56 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] R50B > Mark asked: > >Looking for photos/lettering diagrams for PRR R50 B reefers . Any help would > >be great > > Mark, > > Photos: > PRR color guide I > Pennsy Power III > http://www.trainweb.org/jssand/Foreign/PRR.htm > > Lettering guide: > The PRRT&HS published book on passenger cars (I'm blanking on the title) > > Note that these cars were Tuscan, with "buff" lettering (never gold). > > Sunshine Models has announced that they are producing an R50b in HO scale. > I'm willing to bet that the release will be timed to coincide with the 2002 > PRRT&HS meeting ;^) So, save your pennies, 'cause these will be verrrrrry > nice! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson PRR/ Penn Central Art) Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:56:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Superelevation: Horseshoe Curve. Hello List, Does anyone know what year the PRR lowered the superelevation of the tracks at Horseshoe? Got into a very long discussion about TrucTrains and Horseshoe Curve today. We talked about the problems PRR had with pushing TrucTrains westbound from Altoona and the derailments right on the Curve itself. Somewhere along the way, Pennsy started putting a 40ft boxcar between the cabin car and the last flatcar on piggybacks headed west. Lowering the superelevation is supposed to ease the operation of longer and heavier trains around the Curve. Was it the TrucTrains that forced PRR to lower the banking? I'm also thinking maybe the ore trains from South Philly. This was a new route for ore movements in the mid 1950s. Any help would be appreciated!!! Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Superelevation: Horseshoe Curve. Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 13:17:44 +0000 Dave and the List: Ore trains would be a reason itself to lower the superelevation. Slow, heavy trains would put more weight on the inside or lower rail. Over time, the rail head would flatten out or "mushroom." When the certain stress thresholds are reached, steel will be plastic and flow albeit slow. Speaking of superelevation, what were the standards on the Pennsy (before and after the 1950's)? When I worked for Conrail in the mid 1980's, the maximum super was 4". I know that the Erie used 6" I think into the EL merger and up to Conrail. To get back to Horseshoe curve, I think that it is plausible that the introduction of new freight car equipment such as 75' flatcars would result in changes in superelevation practices and standards. I think that it was the 89 foot flatcars of the 1960's revealed that derailments of these cars were possible when they crossed over from track to track under certain circumstances. (the turnout "number", the track spacing, the turnout spacing, the speed, etc.) I hope that this helps. It is an interesting topic thread. Ted Andrew Carmel, Indiana -worked for Conrail's M of W - Track Depart.; a "railfan" in more ways than one!! :) >From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson PRR/ Penn Central Art) >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] Superelevation: Horseshoe Curve. >Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 22:56:36 -0500 (EST) > > > Hello List, > > Does anyone know what year the PRR lowered the superelevation of >the tracks at Horseshoe? > Got into a very long discussion about TrucTrains and Horseshoe >Curve today. We talked about the problems PRR had with pushing >TrucTrains westbound from Altoona and the derailments right on the Curve >itself. Somewhere along the way, Pennsy started putting a 40ft boxcar >between the cabin car and the last flatcar on piggybacks headed west. > Lowering the superelevation is supposed to >ease the operation of longer and heavier trains around the Curve. Was it >the TrucTrains that forced PRR to lower the banking? > I'm also thinking maybe the ore trains from South Philly. This was >a new route for ore movements in the mid 1950s. > Any help would be appreciated!!! > > Dave Hopson > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson PRR/ Penn Central Art) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 08:44:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Superelevation: Horseshoe Curve. Ted & List, I also belive that the 89ft "lowdeck" flat was a major problem for the PRR at Horseshoe. I don't know what the banking was but 4" sounds right. PRR was also derailing empty auto racks on the tail end of the trains. Penn Central may have lowered the superelevation even more to save maintnance on the rails. I imagine PRR had to make a lot of changes to the trackwork to handle these new freight cars. Maybe the early 1960s, the banking might have been changed at Horseshoe. Someone out there knows. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 09:56:56 EST From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Superelevation: Horseshoe Curve. My understanding was that the long cars coupled with the short wheelbase of the cabin cars was causing derailments when crossing from one track to the next similar to what us modelers experience when we make an s curve with no straight in between. It was written up in Rails Northeast as a question and answered by several people familiar with the Pittsburgh division as I recall. They started inserting 50' box cars to eliminate the problem. Apparently it was a successful solution. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 12:23:51 EST From: JSZARMACH@aol.com Subject: [PRR] GG1 4909 Update For those of you interested, I just got back from working on the 4909. We spent about 3 days on it and we made some good progress on this trip. We also performed an airbrake test and moved it with a switcher. You can see photos and read about it on the website at: http://www.PJandCompany.com/GG1 Also, I added a couple of additional inside photos (click on "Tour the Inside"). --Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] H6 models? Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 11:17:14 -0600 (CST) From: george.pierson@trnty.edu Hi, everyone, A quick modeling questions - does anyone know if anyone has ever done an H6 in brass in HO? I'm interested in the early version with the square steam chests. TIA George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 13:07:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] H6 models? George, The earliest H6 available is the H6sa? and H6sb series. Lambert, Railworks and Sunset make these. You may be able to back date one to an H6.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] H6 models? Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 12:42:59 -0600 H6sb has been done in brass by Lambert, Sunset, and Railworks. -----Original Message----- From: george.pierson@trnty.edu [mailto:george.pierson@trnty.edu] Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 11:17 AM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] H6 models? Hi, everyone, A quick modeling questions - does anyone know if anyone has ever done an H6 in brass in HO? I'm interested in the early version with the square steam chests. TIA George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 16:45:14 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] Delmarva Lives! I'm sitting here finishing off the afternoon's paperwork and was interrupted by the southbound ESHR freight to Cape Charles. It came through with 2 blue Paducah rebuilt GP-10s, 36 motley 100 ton hoppers including one that used to be Conrail-- freight car red with a logo but the CONRAIL painted out-- and one LP tankcar. The fall grain rush is on with soybeans and corn going to chicken and hog farms in North Carolina I think. Too bad its not an L-1s . . . hope this is PRR enough to please the moderator. Jim McDaniel, wishing for DGLE and Keystones instead of Conrail Blue. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 18:26:58 -0500 From: Ken Meyer Subject: [PRR] Open House Anyone heading to Don Richard's Friday nite (7p-11p)? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 04:38:11 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Adoption of electric headlights on PRR Hello list, I was perusing the MR Cyclopedia Vol 1: Steam Locomotives for the upteemth time today. On page 54 there's a nice shot of H9s 3535. According to Edson, she was built in October 1913 by Juniata (making her a late new-built H9s) and scrapped in June 1950. The photo caption in the Cyc says it's a builder's photo. What makes it intriguing is that the engine has a turbogenerator for an electric arc headlight. Most PRR steam didn't get electric lights until after 1920 (K4s engines 3726-3775 being one of the first groups of engines built new with electric headlights). The I1s class built by Baldwin in 1922-23 and the 3800 series K4s engines were among the first built with round cased headlights. When did PRR start experimenting with electric headlights and turbogenerators for them? Is H9s 3535 the first PRR steamer with electric headlights? Thanks in advance! Doug __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Adoption of electric headlights on PRR Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 09:06:57 -0500 Doug:- I don't know the exact dates, but Lines West was using generators and electric headlights at least a decade before the PRR itself. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Kisala" To: "PRR talk" Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 7:38 AM Subject: [PRR] Adoption of electric headlights on PRR > Hello list, > > I was perusing the MR Cyclopedia Vol 1: Steam > Locomotives for the upteemth time today. > > On page 54 there's a nice shot of H9s 3535. According > to Edson, she was built in October 1913 by Juniata > (making her a late new-built H9s) and scrapped in June > 1950. The photo caption in the Cyc says it's a > builder's photo. What makes it intriguing is that the > engine has a turbogenerator for an electric arc > headlight. > > Most PRR steam didn't get electric lights until after > 1920 (K4s engines 3726-3775 being one of the first > groups of engines built new with electric headlights). > The I1s class built by Baldwin in 1922-23 and the > 3800 series K4s engines were among the first built > with round cased headlights. > > When did PRR start experimenting with electric > headlights and turbogenerators for them? Is H9s 3535 > the first PRR steamer with electric headlights? > > Thanks in advance! > > Doug > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Find a job, post your resume. > http://careers.yahoo.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 06:25:35 -0800 (PST) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] New York City Hi, I am searching for the number of inhabitans in NYC in 1944 and 2000 for use in my thesis about the PRR and Amtrak. Can someone get these numbers for my since there is no e-mail adress for the City of New York or the NYPD. And calling from Europe to the US would be expensive. Thanks in advance Geoffrey Van Dooren __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] Boswer N5 Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 12:50:01 -0500 Here's a quick question. Somewhere along the way I seem to remember someone saying the PRR N5 cabin car is actually an N5b. Is this correct? Thanks Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRR5499@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Boswer N5 Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 21:33:02 +0000 The N-5b had a cushion underframe,which the N-5 did not. N-5s were built starting 1914,the N-5bs in 1941. Also most if not all of the N-5s were built without "crash-beams",which were added later. Windows and hand-rails also differed. Ed Case > Here's a quick question. Somewhere along the way I seem to remember someone > saying the PRR N5 cabin car is actually an N5b. Is this correct? > Thanks > > Brian J Carlson > Cheektowaga NY > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 16:59:49 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dividends? In a message dated Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:16:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Douglas Nelson" writes: > I believe that I have read somewhere that the PRR held the longest record > for paying stockholder dividends of any U.S. corporation. Can someone > confirm this? > > What year did the dividend payments stop? Has any corporation surpassed > this record? > > Thanks, > Doug Nelson > PRRT&HS #4852 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 16:59:50 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dividends? In a message dated Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:16:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Douglas Nelson" writes: > I believe that I have read somewhere that the PRR held the longest record > for paying stockholder dividends of any U.S. corporation. Can someone > confirm this? > > What year did the dividend payments stop? Has any corporation surpassed > this record? > > Thanks, > Doug Nelson > PRRT&HS #4852 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Boswer N5 Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 16:41:35 -0600 Ed--Instead of the N5b, are you thinking of the four N5a's which had Duryea cushion underframes? The window difference between N5 and N5b was very minor, negligible in HO--just the width of the window frames, not the width of the windows. Brian-- Bowser in their wisdom made poor attempts at casting on the curved side grabs; the model would have been better off without them. Shaving them off is not difficult and then you can put grabs on to represent either N5 or N5b since these grabs vary slightly; the N5b grabs extend upward closer to the belt rail. Also, many, but not all N5b's were equipped with train phone; however, I do not know of any N5's so equipped. Ed brought up the subject of "crash-beams", the structures at the ends of the platforms which were supposed to enhance the crew's survivability in event of a mishap. The N5's were built without these beams; however, most, but not all, received them later in life. Photos of N5b's when built which I have seen all show the crash-beams installed. The bottom line--the Bowser "N5" can be used as the starting point for N5 or N5b cabins. The best source on this topic to date is the Keystone of December 1973. Ed Martin wrote an excellent article in Mainline Modeler December 1995 in which he used the Bowser model as the beginnings for both a N5 and a N5b. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 17:44:22 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: [PRR] 1913 Flood & PRR Dividends In a message dated Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:16:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Douglas Nelson" writes: > I believe that I have read somewhere that the PRR held the longest record > for paying stockholder dividends of any U.S. corporation. Can someone > confirm this? > > What year did the dividend payments stop? Has any corporation surpassed > this record? > > Thanks, > Doug Nelson > PRRT&HS #4852 > Two threads converge. Nothing shows Broad Streets dividend fixation than it's decision to pay a dividend in 1914 despite the catastrophic losses from the Ohio-Indiana Flood March 23-28, 1903. During this worst-ever calamity, high water blocked every north-south river valley on Pittsburgh-St. Louis Panhandle mainline from the Muskingum River at Trinway, O., to the Wabash River at Terre Haute, the Panhandle's Columbus-Chicago line from the Scioto River at Columbus to the Wabash River at Logansport, Ind. The Fort Wayne main was closed for three days between Crestline, O., and points west of Fort Wayne, Ind. 262 miles of track, 24 miles of embankment and trestles and 4 miles of bridges were destroyed but not passenger was hurt. The loss of rolling stock and facilities was staggering but thru service to St. Louis resumed in 11 days. PRR set its flood cost at $29 million. Shut for most of February by two major blizzards, the PRR had only $750,000 cash on hand on April 1, 1914 after 120 trains had been dropped from timetables and 38,000 Panhandle, "P" Co. and PRR employees were laid off. There was dividend, albeit cut by 60 percent from projections. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 17:58:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Boswer N5 Steve, These collision posts may have 2 purposes. The first as you say was to protect the crew in "collisions". The second reason (at least this is what I always heard) was to strengthen the whole cabin assembly for loco pushing purposes. Can anyone confirm this reason too?......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:15:14 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] M1b plans in MR Cyc Vol 1: Steam Locomotives Hello list, A little while back Sam Vastano (I believe) was asking about M1a/M1b external differences. While reviewing MR's Cyc (also prompting my H9s question from yesterday), I noticed that the plan on pages 180-181 is actually an M1b. It shows the location of the circulator washout plugs exactly. Doug __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] M1b plans in MR Cyc Vol 1: Steam Locomotives Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 06:52:08 -0500 Doug & Group, After the answer to my M1a M1b question I have scoured the pennsy power series. If I am seeing correctly I see quite a few captions that are wrong. M1a's as B's etc. I am I correct or is the author? Thanks Sam Vastano So many hobbies so little time! >From: Doug Kisala >To: PRR talk >Subject: [PRR] M1b plans in MR Cyc Vol 1: Steam Locomotives >Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 00:15:14 -0800 (PST) > >Hello list, > >A little while back Sam Vastano (I believe) was asking >about M1a/M1b external differences. > >While reviewing MR's Cyc (also prompting my H9s >question from yesterday), I noticed that the plan on >pages 180-181 is actually an M1b. It shows the >location of the circulator washout plugs exactly. > >Doug > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Find a job, post your resume. >http://careers.yahoo.com > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRR5499@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Boswer N5 Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 16:49:15 +0000 Steve, I looked up my info in the N.J. book "Cabin Cars of the PRR & Long Island RR. They have the plans for both the N-5,and N-5b.You are right about the windows. Its the frames that is up-graded in the N-5b. If you compare N-5a plans with N-5b ones it looks like the "B"s also had the Duryea frames,even if it is not stated. EC > Ed--Instead of the N5b, are you thinking of the four N5a's which had Duryea > cushion underframes? The window difference between N5 and N5b was very > minor, negligible in HO--just the width of the window frames, not the width > of the windows. > > Brian-- Bowser in their wisdom made poor attempts at casting on the curved > side grabs; the model would have been better off without them. Shaving > them off is not difficult and then you can put grabs on to represent either > N5 or N5b since these grabs vary slightly; the N5b grabs extend upward > closer to the belt rail. Also, many, but not all N5b's were equipped with > train phone; however, I do not know of any N5's so equipped. Ed brought up > the subject of "crash-beams", the structures at the ends of the platforms > which were supposed to enhance the crew's survivability in event of a > mishap. The N5's were built without these beams; however, most, but not > all, received them later in life. Photos of N5b's when built which I have > seen all show the crash-beams installed. > > The bottom line--the Bowser "N5" can be used as the starting point for N5 or > N5b cabins. The best source on this topic to date is the Keystone of > December 1973. Ed Martin wrote an excellent article in Mainline Modeler > December 1995 in which he used the Bowser model as the beginnings for both a > N5 and a N5b. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:51:49 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Boswer N5 In a message dated 11/3/01 3:07:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << The second reason (at least this is what I always heard) was to strengthen the whole cabin assembly for loco pushing purposes. Can anyone confirm this reason too?......Gary >> Gary and All, I have never heard that and I would dispute it's structurual attempt to "strengthen" the caboose. I would doubt that you could believe this as much more than a conductor's tale... I believe they were called anti-collision post by the PRR. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 14:54:02 EST Subject: [PRR] March 1913 Floods at Dayton In a message dated 11/4/01 1:11:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Two threads converge. Nothing shows Broad Streets dividend fixation than it's decision to pay a dividend in 1914 despite the catastrophic losses from the Ohio-Indiana Flood March 23-28, 1903. During this worst-ever calamity, high water blocked every north-south river valley on Pittsburgh-St. Louis Panhandle mainline from the Muskingum River at Trinway, O., to the Wabash River at Terre Haute, the Panhandle's Columbus-Chicago line from the Scioto River at Columbus to the Wabash River at Logansport, Ind. The Fort Wayne main was closed for three days between Crestline, O., and points west of Fort Wayne, Ind. >> You meant to say 1913, of course. I'd mention the PRR Lines West engineering organization's album on the 1913 flood damage as a terrific resource, but I get the feeling that all the library copies (Dayton, Columbus, Fort Wayne) have disappeared, due either to deaccession or disappearance. In other words, either the library threw it out because it was an old book, or some lowlife stole it because it was a collectible. Tom, as you've pointed out very well before, the financial damage was so great that writing the massive losses off against the Lines West books set up the LW operating folks for all kinds of cost cutting. The rebuilds of N6 cabins retaining the wood bodies of previous 4-wheel buggies is just one example of the economies practiced. But there was still the matter of the PRR's cash dividend. I think PRR management was just as much a hostage to its shareholders and lender banks then as today's company managements are to institutional shareholders and to the ratings of Wall Street financial analysts. The difference seems to be that, then, cutting the dividend was a good way to drive your stock down, destroy the credit of your company, and start a panic among your stockholders. Today, you can do the same thing just by announcing your earnings are off -- you needn't touch the dividend to start a selloff. I guess my point is that maintaining the dividend was a key to preserving the company's independence. Many another railroad company lost that independence, usually at a most disagreeable price. The Pennsy passed through Dayton on the tracks of the Dayton Union Station Company. DUS had a single track truss bridge at the time of the 1913 flood; I've seen cheery pics of dead horses and other debris hung up in it after the water went down. The replacement bridge came in 1917 according to DUS historian Bob Fink; he modeled one of the three spans on his recently-demolished Dayton Duluth & Western. The renewal spans, of course, were double track and survive to this day. Indeed, they look much like the large steel curved-chord Warren truss bridges the PRR was putting up elsewhere around the system about the same time -- Louisville's PRR bridge is a contemporary, but there are many others. Meantime, Dayton fielded a set of 5 dams upstream 1918-1922 to end flooding in the city. One that's immediately accessible is Huffman dam, just upvalley from the Air Force Museum on the Mad River. Incidentally, Jim Kendig reminds us that the Big Four tracks through Fairborn used to come down that valley, and had to be removed when the dam was built. This NYC line from Columbus and Springfield had to be relocated to the south, and wound up running through Fairfield (present-day Fairborn) alongside the Erie. In fact, the NYC and Erie came to operate their two tracks between Cold Spring (outside Springfield) and Tate's Point (at the edge of Dayton) as a doubletrack railroad. PS - In 1913 the ex-narrow gauge Cincinnati Lebanon & Northern had been part of the Pennsy family less than 20 years. When the flood waters rose in Dayton, Cincinnati also turned into a swimming pool. For some time, the little CL&N (built over the hills, not around them) was the only railroad running into either Dayton or Cincinnati, and assisted greatly with relief efforts staged by surrounding communities. Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Fax 502-426-0089 (for now) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: [PRR] Adoption of electric headlights on PRR Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 16:23:52 -0500 Doug and list: The photo of H9s 3535 in the MR Cyc. is PRR negative No. EE6776. Unfortunately, the caption information is not correct. It isn't a builder's photo. Instead it's an official photograph, one of many taken for various purposes other than documenting new construction. In this case, the photograph was taken on January 14, 1925. The reason was listed as "Midvale Steel Tires". It's unlikely that #3535 was the first PRR locomotive to get an electric headlight. By the way, the headlight on #3535 appears to be a standard PRR oil headlight, which has been electrified by removal of the oil lamp and installation of an electric lamp. Usually the chimney on top of the headlight casing was removed when the headlight was converted to electricity. However, many weren't, as in this case. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Kisala" To: "PRR talk" Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 7:38 AM Subject: [PRR] Adoption of electric headlights on PRR | Hello list, | | I was perusing the MR Cyclopedia Vol 1: Steam | Locomotives for the upteemth time today. | | On page 54 there's a nice shot of H9s 3535. According | to Edson, she was built in October 1913 by Juniata | (making her a late new-built H9s) and scrapped in June | 1950. The photo caption in the Cyc says it's a | builder's photo. What makes it intriguing is that the | engine has a turbogenerator for an electric arc | headlight. | | Most PRR steam didn't get electric lights until after | 1920 (K4s engines 3726-3775 being one of the first | groups of engines built new with electric headlights). | The I1s class built by Baldwin in 1922-23 and the | 3800 series K4s engines were among the first built | with round cased headlights. | | When did PRR start experimenting with electric | headlights and turbogenerators for them? Is H9s 3535 | the first PRR steamer with electric headlights? | | Thanks in advance! | | Doug | | __________________________________________________ | Do You Yahoo!? | Find a job, post your resume. | http://careers.yahoo.com | | ----------------------------------------------------------------------- | For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: [PRR] Ballast Color Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 09:08:42 -0600 Hi all, I would like to know what ballast products on the market stand out as "this looks like the ballast the PRR used". Anybody got a favorite brand they use. Also, would anyone like to comment on the use of cinder ballast in yards and on sidings and the standard PRR practices. Thanks in advance, Peter Reinhold Prairie Du Sac, WI. 53578 preinhol@unidie.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 05 Nov 2001 10:31:35 -0500 From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] superelevation and car tonnage Reply to: superelevation and car tonnage "Ted Andrews" wrote: - -Ore trains would be a reason itself to lower the superelevation. Slow, heavy -trains would put more weight on the inside or lower rail. Over time, the -rail head would flatten out or "mushroom." When the certain stress -thresholds are reached, steel will be plastic and flow albeit slow. Ted, I think the overall trend toward heavier cars in general in the early to mid-60's might also have a reason. The Philadelphia import ore shipments were originally handled in 'regular' hopper cars most likely of 70 ton capacity. Of course, these cars were designed for coal and a full load of ore consisted of a scoopful over each truck-- the train would appear empty as it rolled by, even though the haulers and helpers were in full cry attempting to lift the train to Gallitzin. The ore jennies were also of 70 ton capacity. I assume that PRR probably loaded the 70 ton hoppers with coal to capacity as often as possible, so it doesn't seem that conversion of some of them to ore service would have been a deciding factor. When PRR started handling unit coal trains for Pennsylvania Power and Light (and probably, others) of 100 ton capacity in the mid-60's, we're talking about a 42% increase in tonnage on four axles. That must have had a definite effect on the inner rails of superelevated track, especially given that Pennsy track situation was generally deteriorating as maintenance was deferred in order to keep its dividend/stock price up in anticipation of the PC merger. - -To get back to Horseshoe curve, I think that it is plausible that the -introduction of new freight car equipment such as 75' flatcars would result -in changes in superelevation practices and standards. I think that it was -the 89 foot flatcars of the 1960's revealed that derailments of these cars -were possible when they crossed over from track to track under certain -circumstances. (the turnout "number", the track spacing, the turnout -spacing, the speed, etc.) Interesting. To me, it would seem that KEEPING superelevation would have HELPED reduce the outward forces on curves on light cars such as TT and auto racks due to rear-end helpers, by transferring some of the cars' weight to the inner rail of a curve, thereby helping to reduce a car's tendency to climb the outer rail. Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 10:55:20 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Water Station at Cove From: Jerry Britton I'm looking at a section of track chart from BANKS to VIEW, just west of the Rockville Bridge... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/images/tc_view_banks.jpg Just west of milepost 115 is the emergency water station. I'm trying to place it in "real life". There are two locations nearby (to the west) that have dashed lines across the track. One side has a "P" and one side has an "R". Might this denote a "Public Road"? If so, the first (travelling west) might be the crossing still existing about 1/8 mile before the new Sheetz store and the second up by Dale's Locomotion, across from Big Bee Boats. If this is the code and these are the roads, then it is easy to place the emergency water station just east of the first crossing. There is also a "P----R" designated at about 114.1. There is in existence today a crossing down the hill from the Perdix Fire Company. Again, this is about the right place on the track chart. What protected a train taking on water at this stop, since it was not within an interlocking plant... just the block signals? RELATED: Today the signal bridge at 116 is the distant for BANKS for eastbounds and the distant for CP CANNON (nee BANKS) for westbounds. There were more signal bridges in the 1950's, as the above chart shows, but either I am missing it or the chart does not designate the role of the bridges. The bridge at 114 appears to be the distant for BANKS for eastbounds and the bridge at 118 appears to be the distant for VIEW for westbounds. That would leave the existing bridge at 116 to be a regular block signal. Can anyone expand, refute, or confirm the above? Also, there is a small stub track with a building on the river side, at mile 118.5, just east of VIEW. There would not have been any road access, so it would not have been commercial. Anyone know what this was? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 13:22:28 EST Subject: [PRR] Ballast Ballast color - like hopper car color - varied from place to place, day to day and even track to track, in the same area. Great example in the most recent Pennsy picture book I purchased from Jerry's Merchandise service (Jerry - insert "plug" here) There is a photo facing West and looking down on a 4 track Horseshoe Curve - the two right hand (West - Upbound) tracks are white with sand - the left hand (Eastbound & down) pair are black with brake shoe dust. Many areas, which had coal, stone or ore movements - primarily in on direction - would have a black, white or orange stripe down the centerline from hopper door leakage - often on one track of a pair or a set, only. In almost all areas, unless brand new, the ballast between the rails was usually darker because of lubricant drip and possible fuel (or cinder) leakage from the locomotives. Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 13:27:26 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Ballast From: Jerry Britton On 11/5/01 1:22 PM, VVA249@aol.com (VVA249@aol.com) wrote: > There is a photo facing West and looking down on a 4 track Horseshoe Curve - > the two right hand (West - Upbound) tracks are white with sand - the left > hand (Eastbound & down) pair are black with brake shoe dust. Many areas, > which had coal, stone or ore movements - primarily in on direction - would > have a black, white or orange stripe down the centerline from hopper door > leakage - often on one track of a pair or a set, only. That's an interesting treatment I hadn't thought of: black brake shoe dust on tracks 1 & 2 and sand on 3 & 4!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 13:30:57 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Water Station at Cove Greetings to Jerry and the list: Just east of the Burley Road grade crossing at Cove, on the south side of the main line, you can see the concrete foundations of the twin water tanks that once fed the water station. This crossing is the one you know as being near the new Sheetz store. On your track chart, the two tanks show up as double circles, but they are intended only to represent the existence of those facilities and the diagram does not show them in correct position or scale with respect to the grade crossing. The notation P---R indicated a private road grade crossing. A public grade crossing was designated by a solid, not dashed, line, and the letter G. The trailing-point switch that led off No. 4 track marked a site where the railroad intended to realign and straighten out the tight curve around the point of the mountain, which was always the sharpest curve between Harrisburg and Altoona. Back at the turn of the (20th) century, the railroad even considered a slightly different approach -- tunneling under the mountain and creating a straight line between about MP 117.7 and 118.7 (near "View") -- to accomplish the same end. Although the tunnel idea did not go forward, PRR did dump fill (reportedly, cinders from the Enola ash pit) over on the river side in what was to have been the first step to changing the right-of-way. In fact, if you look at the 1956 PRR calendar painting by Grif Teller, you can see a bulldozer moving earth at exactly that location. Also, I think you meant to say that the interlocking at CP-Cannon was formerly View, not nee-Banks. Offhand, I'm not sure I agree with your thought that there were more signal bridges in the '50s. I was just a wee lad then but I don't remember seeing any more than the ones shown on your track chart. Hope this helps. Dan Cupper ---------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton wrote: > > I'm looking at a section of track chart from BANKS to VIEW, just west of the > Rockville Bridge... > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/images/tc_view_banks.jpg > > Just west of milepost 115 is the emergency water station. I'm trying to > place it in "real life". > > There are two locations nearby (to the west) that have dashed lines across > the track. One side has a "P" and one side has an "R". Might this denote a > "Public Road"? If so, the first (travelling west) might be the crossing > still existing about 1/8 mile before the new Sheetz store and the second up > by Dale's Locomotion, across from Big Bee Boats. If this is the code and > these are the roads, then it is easy to place the emergency water station > just east of the first crossing. > > There is also a "P----R" designated at about 114.1. There is in existence > today a crossing down the hill from the Perdix Fire Company. Again, this is > about the right place on the track chart. > > What protected a train taking on water at this stop, since it was not within > an interlocking plant... just the block signals? > > RELATED: > > Today the signal bridge at 116 is the distant for BANKS for eastbounds and > the distant for CP CANNON (nee BANKS) for westbounds. > > There were more signal bridges in the 1950's, as the above chart shows, but > either I am missing it or the chart does not designate the role of the > bridges. > > The bridge at 114 appears to be the distant for BANKS for eastbounds and the > bridge at 118 appears to be the distant for VIEW for westbounds. That would > leave the existing bridge at 116 to be a regular block signal. > > Can anyone expand, refute, or confirm the above? > > Also, there is a small stub track with a building on the river side, at mile > 118.5, just east of VIEW. There would not have been any road access, so it > would not have been commercial. Anyone know what this was? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 13:41:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Water Station at Cove From: Jerry Britton On 11/5/01 1:30 PM, Dan Cupper (cupper@worldnet.att.net) wrote: Once again, I shouldn't be surprised to have Mr. Cupper chime in on a "near Harrisburg" subject! > > Just east of the Burley Road grade crossing at Cove, on the south side > of the main line, you can see the concrete foundations of the twin water > tanks that once fed the water station. This crossing is the one you know > as being near the new Sheetz store. Excellent! I'll have to find, measure, and photograph those foundations! > > On your track chart, the two tanks show up as double circles, but they > are intended only to represent the existence of those facilities and the > diagram does not show them in correct position or scale with respect to > the grade crossing. Finding the foundations will give me the info I need. How far east of the grade crossing, roughly (right there, 100 yards, etc.) ? > > The notation P---R indicated a private road grade crossing. A public > grade crossing was designated by a solid, not dashed, line, and the > letter G. For my purposes of understanding, they are interchangeable, but thanks none-the-less! > > The trailing-point switch that led off No. 4 track marked a site where > the railroad intended to realign and straighten out the tight curve > around the point of the mountain, which was always the sharpest curve > between Harrisburg and Altoona. Back at the turn of the (20th) century, > the railroad even considered a slightly different approach -- tunneling > under the mountain and creating a straight line between about MP 117.7 > and 118.7 (near "View") -- to accomplish the same end. Although the > tunnel idea did not go forward, PRR did dump fill (reportedly, cinders > from the Enola ash pit) over on the river side in what was to have been > the first step to changing the right-of-way. In fact, if you look at > the 1956 PRR calendar painting by Grif Teller, you can see a bulldozer > moving earth at exactly that location. So the trailing-point switch was to get the fill in to the area? FWIW: "Triumph IV" discusses both projects to some length. Not only had the PRR considered realignment around the curve, but they also considered construction of a flyover to replace the role of VIEW in realigning passenger traffic onto tracks 1 & 2 into Harrisburg (and freight onto 3 & 4). Can you imagine a flyover across from the Cove Diner? Kinda glad they did not do this! > > Also, I think you meant to say that the interlocking at CP-Cannon was > formerly View, not nee-Banks. Offhand, I'm not sure I agree with your > thought that there were more signal bridges in the '50s. I was just a > wee lad then but I don't remember seeing any more than the ones shown on > your track chart. > You are certainly correct that I meant VIEW, not BANKS. No, I'm not saying there were more than on the chart. However, I think now there are two less than the chart shows, aren't there? The one at Cove at 116 has double signals in both directions, making it a distant signal for the CANNON (nee VIEW) and BANKS interlockings. In the 1950's I believe this bridge had single heads and there was one additional signal bridge on either side of this one. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 13:54:57 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Water Station at Cove Jerry Britton wrote: > > Finding the foundations will give me the info I need. How far east of the > grade crossing, roughly (right there, 100 yards, etc.) ? About 25-35 yards. > > > > So the trailing-point switch was to get the fill in to the area? Yes, a westbound freight would come out of Enola bound for Altoona, with a couple of cars of fill to set off on this track. > No, I'm not saying there were more than on the chart. However, I think now > there are two less than the chart shows, aren't there? The one at Cove at > 116 has double signals in both directions, making it a distant signal for > the CANNON (nee VIEW) and BANKS interlockings. In the 1950's I believe this > bridge had single heads and there was one additional signal bridge on either > side of this one. My misunderstanding. I don't know about two signal bridges fewer than on the chart, but yes, the signal bridge at 117.9 is gone. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 13:57:12 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Water Station at Cove The legend on my 1960 track chart for LOWER Delmarva (DELMAR to Cape Charles) indicates that P---/---R (dashed line crossing the track line) is a private road, and ___/G____ (solid line crossing the track line) is a public grade crossing. My chart even lists the Route number or road name for most of these. Sorry I can't be more help with the issue at hand. Jim McDaniel, waiting for the Delmarva local freight ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Water Station at Cove Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 11:04:51 -0800 From: "John Cooper" I believe signal system for the entire middle division was either completely replaced or extensively reworked when they did the clearance improvement project for double stacks. A few years ago, I rode the middle division looking out the back window with a 1950 track chart in hand. Offhand, I'd say just about all of the wayside signals were in completely different locations. Many of the signal bridges were simply gone, with new signals mounted on masts. The number plates on all the signals used different conventions too. I took notes about signal placement if you're interested. Interestingly, the signals on the pittburgh division appeared almost completely consistant to the 1950 chart. John > ---------- > From: Jerry Britton[SMTP:jerry@pennsyrr.com] > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:41 AM > To: Dan Cupper > Cc: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: Re: [PRR] Water Station at Cove > > No, I'm not saying there were more than on the chart. However, I think now > there are two less than the chart shows, aren't there? The one at Cove at > 116 has double signals in both directions, making it a distant signal for > the CANNON (nee VIEW) and BANKS interlockings. In the 1950's I believe this > bridge had single heads and there was one additional signal bridge on either > side of this one. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:45:38 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] N6A/N6B Origins documented! In a message dated 11/4/01 11:28:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, jconsoli@paonline.com writes: << Rick, I was thinking of you the other day when I was in at the State Archives (here in Harrisburg) doing some diesel research. If I recall correctly, you had posted something about yourself and others? working on trying to sort out the history/evolution of the N6A, N6B and earlier class cabin cars. If my memory serves me right, you mentioned that the information to figure this out was hard to come by. Am I remembering this correctly? Anyway, if you are looking for this information, I believe at least a good bit of it exists in pretty succinct form. The PRR kept what they called Historical Record Cards for all pieces of rolling stock. The Archives has (at least some) these cards on microfilm. The cabin cards are mixed in with the freight equipment. When I happened to stop on one of the N6B cards while scaning a reel (for diesels), I thought of you. The card I looked at showed the following information, amongst other data for this particular car: PFW&C Ry car #996300 built as NC at Fort Wayne, 8/02: Class changed to N6A, (re)built by PRR Co. at Fort Wayne, 2/17/15 (at a cost of $280): renumbered to #980836 at Conway 5/26/21: Class changed to N6B at Renovo 10/18/41. As far as the offset or centered cupola issue, I thought someone published the info that cars built new as N6A or N6B had center cupolas, the cars rebuilt from the older classes had the offset cupolas - resulting from the shops basically cutting the car at one end and splicing in more body - as we modelers might kitbash a model, leaving the cupola in its original position relative to the un-cut end. Anyway, if you guys are looking for this stuff, it appears to "out there". Jack Consoli >> Jack -- Wow. And again wow! This information will cause unending amounts of excitement, anguish, and horror among Pennsy fans. Imagine being able to take, for instance, the two N6b's assigned to Xenia in 1955 and track them back to their 4-wheel bobber roots. I suspect you have just liberated a group of Lines Westerners from a swamp of guesswork, and have elevated our questions to a library quest. Of course, we don't know what fraction of the cabin fleet is documented here, but even fragmentary info is better than what we have now. If these goodies ever get tabulated, the next quest would be to attempt correlating the window size/position of known cabin photographs to see if any conclusions can be drawn about the original bobber body dictating the final visual result. BTW, my friend Tom Vondruska has hypothesized that center cupola N6's were built new. I've heard others speculate that a pre-existing woodie's body could have been centered on the new steel underframe and then both ends moved out. I have no hard knowledge either way, although I agree with Tom that if I were the car carpenter, I'd think it's less work to move one end rather than both. I need to review what's appeared in the Keystone over the years, but I don't remember an article that pretended to nail any of this down. So I think you've just projected us into new research territory. Again, thank you. Rick Tipton ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Clever Cam is a pen sized digital camera, webcam, and mini-camcorder. Just $79.95 at Youcansave.com. http://us.click.yahoo.com/F11sED/NkNDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:45:38 EST Subject: [PRR] N6A/N6B Origins documented! In a message dated 11/4/01 11:28:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, jconsoli@paonline.com writes: << Rick, I was thinking of you the other day when I was in at the State Archives (here in Harrisburg) doing some diesel research. If I recall correctly, you had posted something about yourself and others? working on trying to sort out the history/evolution of the N6A, N6B and earlier class cabin cars. If my memory serves me right, you mentioned that the information to figure this out was hard to come by. Am I remembering this correctly? Anyway, if you are looking for this information, I believe at least a good bit of it exists in pretty succinct form. The PRR kept what they called Historical Record Cards for all pieces of rolling stock. The Archives has (at least some) these cards on microfilm. The cabin cards are mixed in with the freight equipment. When I happened to stop on one of the N6B cards while scaning a reel (for diesels), I thought of you. The card I looked at showed the following information, amongst other data for this particular car: PFW&C Ry car #996300 built as NC at Fort Wayne, 8/02: Class changed to N6A, (re)built by PRR Co. at Fort Wayne, 2/17/15 (at a cost of $280): renumbered to #980836 at Conway 5/26/21: Class changed to N6B at Renovo 10/18/41. As far as the offset or centered cupola issue, I thought someone published the info that cars built new as N6A or N6B had center cupolas, the cars rebuilt from the older classes had the offset cupolas - resulting from the shops basically cutting the car at one end and splicing in more body - as we modelers might kitbash a model, leaving the cupola in its original position relative to the un-cut end. Anyway, if you guys are looking for this stuff, it appears to "out there". Jack Consoli >> Jack -- Wow. And again wow! This information will cause unending amounts of excitement, anguish, and horror among Pennsy fans. Imagine being able to take, for instance, the two N6b's assigned to Xenia in 1955 and track them back to their 4-wheel bobber roots. I suspect you have just liberated a group of Lines Westerners from a swamp of guesswork, and have elevated our questions to a library quest. Of course, we don't know what fraction of the cabin fleet is documented here, but even fragmentary info is better than what we have now. If these goodies ever get tabulated, the next quest would be to attempt correlating the window size/position of known cabin photographs to see if any conclusions can be drawn about the original bobber body dictating the final visual result. BTW, my friend Tom Vondruska has hypothesized that center cupola N6's were built new. I've heard others speculate that a pre-existing woodie's body could have been centered on the new steel underframe and then both ends moved out. I have no hard knowledge either way, although I agree with Tom that if I were the car carpenter, I'd think it's less work to move one end rather than both. I need to review what's appeared in the Keystone over the years, but I don't remember an article that pretended to nail any of this down. So I think you've just projected us into new research territory. Again, thank you. Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:59:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] N6A/N6B Origins documented! Rick and lists: I think your first paragraph hits the nail right on the head - excitement, anguish and horror. First off, the records mentioned by Jack Consoli are not complete. The full series title is "Historical Record Cards for Retired Freight Cars, ca. 1950-1967". Cabin cars scrapped before 1950 or after 1967 are not included. Also, the information given is not always complete or accurate. For example, another series, "Lines West Historical Books: Freight Car Equipment", shows car #996300 not as a plain NC, but as an NC with "High Cupola". In other words, the same cupola as on an NE or N6A. Second, there are many sources of cabin car information at the Penna. State Archives. This might seem to be good news, but it greatly complicates the mission of trying to gather all the data, to say nothing of making sense of it. For example, I've spent some 67 full days at the State Archives and am not nearly done taking data. Admittedly, not all the time was spent on cabin cars. Third, while all of the records are official PRR primary sources, they are of varying legibility and accuracy. Most of the records are hand written and tough to decipher. That old saw our teachers told us about how clear and legible handwriting was in the old days was a lie. As for accuracy, Al Buchan asked me to help with the cabin car section of his book on the Erie & Pittsburgh. This was a tiny portion of the PRR, whose 38 cabin cars ca. 1920 represented only about 1% of the total. Among five different sets of official records, I found factual conflicts involving 18 of the cars. Just gathering this small amount of information and resolving the conflicting data took many days of effort. So, the information IS there, but obtaining it and resolving conflicts for all the cabin cars (or even just all the N6a and N6b cars) will take a major effort. Anything less will simply perpetuate errors and misinformation. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; ; Cc: ; "ROBERT L JOHNSON" Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 2:45 PM Subject: [PRR-FAX] N6A/N6B Origins documented! | Jack -- | | Wow. And again wow! This information will cause unending amounts of | excitement, anguish, and horror among Pennsy fans. Imagine being able to | take, for instance, the two N6b's assigned to Xenia in 1955 and track them | back to their 4-wheel bobber roots. | | I suspect you have just liberated a group of Lines Westerners from a swamp of | guesswork, and have elevated our questions to a library quest. Of course, we | don't know what fraction of the cabin fleet is documented here, but even | fragmentary info is better than what we have now. If these goodies ever get | tabulated, the next quest would be to attempt correlating the window | size/position of known cabin photographs to see if any conclusions can be | drawn about the original bobber body dictating the final visual result. | | BTW, my friend Tom Vondruska has hypothesized that center cupola N6's were | built new. I've heard others speculate that a pre-existing woodie's body | could have been centered on the new steel underframe and then both ends moved | out. I have no hard knowledge either way, although I agree with Tom that if | I were the car carpenter, I'd think it's less work to move one end rather | than both. | | I need to review what's appeared in the Keystone over the years, but I don't | remember an article that pretended to nail any of this down. So I think | you've just projected us into new research territory. | | Again, thank you. | | Rick Tipton "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] N6A/N6B Origins documented! Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:59:02 -0500 Rick and lists: I think your first paragraph hits the nail right on the head - excitement, anguish and horror. First off, the records mentioned by Jack Consoli are not complete. The full series title is "Historical Record Cards for Retired Freight Cars, ca. 1950-1967". Cabin cars scrapped before 1950 or after 1967 are not included. Also, the information given is not always complete or accurate. For example, another series, "Lines West Historical Books: Freight Car Equipment", shows car #996300 not as a plain NC, but as an NC with "High Cupola". In other words, the same cupola as on an NE or N6A. Second, there are many sources of cabin car information at the Penna. State Archives. This might seem to be good news, but it greatly complicates the mission of trying to gather all the data, to say nothing of making sense of it. For example, I've spent some 67 full days at the State Archives and am not nearly done taking data. Admittedly, not all the time was spent on cabin cars. Third, while all of the records are official PRR primary sources, they are of varying legibility and accuracy. Most of the records are hand written and tough to decipher. That old saw our teachers told us about how clear and legible handwriting was in the old days was a lie. As for accuracy, Al Buchan asked me to help with the cabin car section of his book on the Erie & Pittsburgh. This was a tiny portion of the PRR, whose 38 cabin cars ca. 1920 represented only about 1% of the total. Among five different sets of official records, I found factual conflicts involving 18 of the cars. Just gathering this small amount of information and resolving the conflicting data took many days of effort. So, the information IS there, but obtaining it and resolving conflicts for all the cabin cars (or even just all the N6a and N6b cars) will take a major effort. Anything less will simply perpetuate errors and misinformation. Bob Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; ; Cc: ; "ROBERT L JOHNSON" Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 2:45 PM Subject: [PRR-FAX] N6A/N6B Origins documented! | Jack -- | | Wow. And again wow! This information will cause unending amounts of | excitement, anguish, and horror among Pennsy fans. Imagine being able to | take, for instance, the two N6b's assigned to Xenia in 1955 and track them | back to their 4-wheel bobber roots. | | I suspect you have just liberated a group of Lines Westerners from a swamp of | guesswork, and have elevated our questions to a library quest. Of course, we | don't know what fraction of the cabin fleet is documented here, but even | fragmentary info is better than what we have now. If these goodies ever get | tabulated, the next quest would be to attempt correlating the window | size/position of known cabin photographs to see if any conclusions can be | drawn about the original bobber body dictating the final visual result. | | BTW, my friend Tom Vondruska has hypothesized that center cupola N6's were | built new. I've heard others speculate that a pre-existing woodie's body | could have been centered on the new steel underframe and then both ends moved | out. I have no hard knowledge either way, although I agree with Tom that if | I were the car carpenter, I'd think it's less work to move one end rather | than both. | | I need to review what's appeared in the Keystone over the years, but I don't | remember an article that pretended to nail any of this down. So I think | you've just projected us into new research territory. | | Again, thank you. | | Rick Tipton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:20:53 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] N6A/N6B Origins documented! I can attest to Bob's tenacity in trying to sort out the E&P cabin data. There is no doubt about it, Bob does nice work. Bob has also become quite adept at moving map files from South Jersey to Lewistown for the archives. Ask him the next time you see him. I think he will be doing a commercial for U-Haul truck rentals in the near future. It is rumored to be titled "Making Memories in Moving with Bob and Judy." ;^) Al "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE: [PRR-FAX] N6A/N6B Origins documented! Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:20:53 -0500 I can attest to Bob's tenacity in trying to sort out the E&P cabin data. There is no doubt about it, Bob does nice work. Bob has also become quite adept at moving map files from South Jersey to Lewistown for the archives. Ask him the next time you see him. I think he will be doing a commercial for U-Haul truck rentals in the near future. It is rumored to be titled "Making Memories in Moving with Bob and Judy." ;^) Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 21:04:28 -0500 From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Equipment - Vol 2 Picked up Volume 2 at Gaithersburg this weekend. It's very nice. Apparently, it's only going to be available from Dave Sweetland or from Bob at shows. John Ryan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 21:15:57 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Cumberland Valley Branch at LEMO From: Jerry Britton Anyone know when the second track of the Cumberland Valley Branch was torn up through LEMO? Please cite sources and photos, if available. A pre-1938 (pre-electrification) aerial shot shows two tracks on the CV through LEMO and onto the bridge into Harrisburg. A "mid-1950's" shot shows only one track. I am trying to determine what was there in 1954 since the above is not specific. The 9/54 Employee Timetable lists different types of data for the CV, but always starts at LEMO, not at Harrisburg. For instance, instructions for "Two Track Operation" are included for the span of LEMO to Dillsburg. But that could be taken to mean two tracks into the beginning (west end) of the interlocking plant. I want to know how many tracks actually hit the diamond crossing with the twin tracks of the Northern Central. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hipes" Subject: [PRR] PRR 980718 Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 04:44:32 Can someone please help me identify the class of PRR 980718, a wood caboose that was scrapped sometime during the early 1960s? Thanks in advance, Steve Hipes _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR 980718 Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 23:02:33 -0600 Steve wrote-- > Can someone please help me identify the class of PRR 980718, a wood caboose > that was scrapped sometime during the early 1960s? > N6b Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 06:25:38 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Life Like HH-1's From: Jerry Britton HO scalers are in for a real treat. The long awaited Life Like Heritage Series 2-8-8-2's have shipped. These are class HH-1's. If only PRR modelers could get more steam locos in a ready-to-run state such as this...beautiful!!! I'm sure we'll get a thorough review out of Bruce Smith once he receives his unit! ;-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] PRR 980718 Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 06:49:35 -0500 Steve and list, 980718 was an N6b assigned in 1958 to the Buckeye region on train Columbus B-CN 29-30. Hope that helped, Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JRobb123@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 06:57:03 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like HH-1's Would it be feasible for Life-Like to offer this locomotive, as well as the others in the Heritage Series, in kit form? I am an avid locomotive kit builder and Pennsy fan that would relish the opportunity to build a locomotive kit that incorporates this level of detail right out of the box. I have enjoyed building many of their Proto 2000 car kits and consider them to be very well engineered and executed. As always economics is a factor. Is there enough of a locomotive builder customer base to support such an endeavor? Just some thoughts. Joe Robbins Marblehead, MA. In a message dated 11/06/2001 6:31:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: HO scalers are in for a real treat. The long awaited Life Like Heritage Series 2-8-8-2's have shipped. These are class HH-1's. If only PRR modelers could get more steam locos in a ready-to-run state such as this...beautiful!!! I'm sure we'll get a thorough review out of Bruce Smith once he receives his unit! ;-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "WaltP" Subject: [PRR] T1 (6110/6111) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 07:02:03 -0500 Gentlemen, I have a few questions concerning those two locomotives. 1) Did the original pair of T1's retain their unique lettering throughout their careers, or was their lettering scheme simplified to match their newer brothers, later in their lives? 2) When were they destined for the torch? And what was their assignment in 1952? The reason for the questions is that I have a Westside T1 which needs refinishing and with Champ closing their doors shortly I would like to order the correct decal before it is too late. Thanks for the info. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PRR5499@att.net Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like HH-1's Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 13:58:59 +0000 Jerry , I'v seen these at the local dealer in town. Question..where is the"dog house"? Can one be supplied with the model. Do you think the lettering is correct? Also on the undec models,do they have the same color smoke-box front? I was thinking of getting two,but I.m stuck between the PRR,and undec version because of the lettering. Also to be correct you have to move the second sand dome [from front] toward the cab a couple of feet. Hate to be a stickler,but I like to be as close as possible. P.S. "E" me a price for two. Thanks, Ed Case > HO scalers are in for a real treat. The long awaited Life Like Heritage > Series 2-8-8-2's have shipped. These are class HH-1's. > > If only PRR modelers could get more steam locos in a ready-to-run state such > as this...beautiful!!! > > I'm sure we'll get a thorough review out of Bruce Smith once he receives his > unit! ;-) > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:13:14 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like HH-1's Joe asks: >Would it be feasible for Life-Like to offer this locomotive, as well as the >others in the Heritage Series, in kit form? I am an avid locomotive kit >builder and Pennsy fan that would relish the opportunity to build a >locomotive kit that incorporates this level of detail right out of the box. Well...never say never, but in this case I'm tempted! First, it would take a major redesign of the loco parts for it to be a saleable kit. A really good kit (like most Tichy products) requires it to be designed as such. Then there are the customer support issues (directions, help for people who can't read the directions or ignore them, etc...). Finally, LL P2K has never offerred a loco kit, and if you've noticed they are making their car kits more RTR every day! I would not expect them to head in the other direction. In fact, I think we get a good glimpse of the state of loco kits by the apparent "backing off" of Bowser regarding the J1. With the economy as uncertain as it has been the past 6 mos., I expect to see an overall slow down in the offerings available across the whole modeling spectrum...but it is a good time to stock up on brass on ebay as folks sell off their excess holdings to pay for their habits . Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Passenger Equipment - Vol 2 Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:28:27 -0600 I have seen it in shows in Chicago, where neither gentleman is present. -----Original Message----- From: John F. Ryan, Jr. [mailto:RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 8:04 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Equipment - Vol 2 Picked up Volume 2 at Gaithersburg this weekend. It's very nice. Apparently, it's only going to be available from Dave Sweetland or from Bob at shows. John Ryan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Like HH-1's Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:32:11 -0500 I have to agree with Bruce. The closest Life Like has come to a kit in the Proto-2000 line is placing the body on the chassis for their diesel line. I do not think that they will offer a steam loco kit. If the reason for desiring a kit is to decrease the cost, I don't think it will happen. However, Life Like DOES offer a kit of sorts with their undecorated versions of the 2-8-8-2. Each of the decorated 2-8-8-2's was detailed with specific parts to more properly represent the prototype being modeled. The undecorated loco offered in a run represents one of the locos offered in the run but the also contain ALL of the parts used to make each locomotive from that series. [AD] We still have access to all three undecorated versions with the extra parts. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] Signals on Middle/Pgh Divs; was: Water Station at Cove Date: Tue, 6 Nov 101 10:12:54 -0500 (EST) John Cooper scribit: > > I believe signal system for the entire middle division was either > completely replaced or extensively reworked when they did the > clearance improvement project for double stacks. A few years ago, > I rode the middle division looking out the back window with a 1950 > track chart in hand. Offhand, I'd say just about all of the wayside > signals were in completely different locations. Many of the signal > bridges were simply gone, with new signals mounted on masts. The > number plates on all the signals used different conventions too. > I took notes about signal placement if you're interested. > Interestingly, the signals on the pittburgh division appeared almost > completely consistant to the 1950 chart. John et al.: Harrisburg to Pittsburgh was reworked and resignalled by Conrail in basically 3 spurts. The first was the Pittsburgh Division, from Conpitt Jct. to downtown Pittsburgh. By the time of a summer 1983 railfan trip I undertook with a high school friend, all of those towers were out of service or actually gone, and the main line was reduced to 2 tracks. This entire stretch of line, including the Conemaugh Line, were controlled from the dispatchers' desk in Green Tree, south of Pittsburgh. We were lucky to get to see that installation. It is NOT the current one. PITT tower was one of the last to go, apparently closed not long before our trip. Pittsburgh to Conway Yard towers were also gone, exclusive of EAST CONWAY, which remains open to this day. Unfortunately, I have essentially no documentation of what changed occurred when. Next was the Middle Division. This was reduced from 3 tracks to 2 around 1985-1987 if memory serves. For this stretch, I have extensive documentation in the form of a nearly complete set of Bulletin Orders that show what was removed when, and which I could pull out if there is a strong need. I do recall some degree of repositioning of signals. Entirely new interlockings were created too. The stretch remaining, i.e. ALTO to SG, was done in the 90s. I have little to no documentation of this. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Passenger Equipment - Vol 2 Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 15:47:13 +0000 Listers: By the way, what passenger cars does Volume 2 cover? TIA Ted Andrews >From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" >To: "'John F. Ryan, Jr.'" , PRR-Talk > >Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Passenger Equipment - Vol 2 >Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:28:27 -0600 > >I have seen it in shows in Chicago, where neither gentleman is present. > >-----Original Message----- >From: John F. Ryan, Jr. [mailto:RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net] >Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 8:04 PM >To: PRR-Talk >Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Equipment - Vol 2 > > >Picked up Volume 2 at Gaithersburg this weekend. It's very nice. >Apparently, it's only going to be available from Dave Sweetland or from >Bob at shows. > >John Ryan > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Passenger Equipment - Vol 2 Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 09:48:09 -0600 >From what I saw when I inspected the book, sleeping cars. May have included parlors. -----Original Message----- From: Ted Andrews [mailto:ted_andrews@msn.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 9:47 AM To: cadwelml@bp.com; RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Passenger Equipment - Vol 2 Listers: By the way, what passenger cars does Volume 2 cover? TIA Ted Andrews >From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" >To: "'John F. Ryan, Jr.'" , PRR-Talk > >Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Passenger Equipment - Vol 2 >Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:28:27 -0600 > >I have seen it in shows in Chicago, where neither gentleman is present. > >-----Original Message----- >From: John F. Ryan, Jr. [mailto:RamblingReck@worldnet.att.net] >Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 8:04 PM >To: PRR-Talk >Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Equipment - Vol 2 > > >Picked up Volume 2 at Gaithersburg this weekend. It's very nice. >Apparently, it's only going to be available from Dave Sweetland or from >Bob at shows. > >John Ryan > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 10:58:39 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Passenger Equipment - Vol 2 From: Jerry Britton I have contacted Dave Sweetland directly. This second volume is indeed out, but will only be available direct UNTIL the first of the year, at which time normal dealer channels will have access. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson PRR/ Penn Central Art) Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 20:21:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] T1 (6110/6111) Hello Walt & list. PRR's original T-1 6110 was rebuilt and she looked like the rest of the later production T-1s. But she still had the sharp pointed nose. I thought that 6110/6111 went to the scrap line as built. There is a photo of 6110 at the end of her career in "Rails to Pittsburgh" on page 55. Too bad Pennsy didn't save one or two!!! Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 23:38:42 -0500 From: "David (Fresh) Freshwater" Subject: Re: [PRR] Round roof-no doors. It took me almost a month to get some info on this because of travel and what not. The source is my dad, who worked in the Shipping Department at Weirton from the early 1950s until the mid-1980s. Dad said that they were 50 foot round roof cars that Weirton had purchased from the PRR. That would make the cars in question ex-PRR X32s. Purchasing cars second hand was pretty common for Weirton. My copy of the Jan 1953 ORER is missing right now, but Weirton is listed in there with a fleet of box cars and others. They only had a few cars that were cleared for interchange - they were tank cars used to ship in and out lube oil and such for the machines in the mill - like the rolling mills. The cars would only carry about 115,000 pounds, so they never looked like they were fully loaded. The bars across the doors were for convenience, to keep the steel coils from rolling out. Having heard some of the mill stories, I can guess that the doors got pretty beaten up quickly. So the bars across the doors saved maintenance cost. Weirton Steel did have a mill building over in Steubenville in the 1950s. Some coils were shipped from the hot mill or tandem mill over there for finishing. Dad worked in shipping over there for a while. But, what was not commonly known was that there was a deal between Weirton and Wheeling Steel to process each others product when the other company got an order that they couldn't handle on their own. When that was the case, they'd ship the coils between the plants, just like the movements mentioned. (Dad also mentioned that, at least once, Weirton bought an order of steel from U.S. Steel and finished it and shipped it off to Weirton's customers.) Another little known fact: When the shipping department ordered in 10 rail cars, 6 would come from the Pennsy and 4 from the B&O. In order to do some of the movements in Steubenville, they had to move either across or on B&O rails. This was either a pay back for trackage rights or just giving everyone a little piece of the business. Thanks for another excuse to pick Dad's brain. Sorry it took so long to do it and provide the info. Dave Freshwater Doug Day wrote: > List, > > Talking to a fellow SPF here in the Panhandle Division yesterday and he was > telling me that probably in the late 50's that there were round roof boxcars > with no doors being sent from Weirton, WV across the bridge to Steubenville, > OH. Upon inspection one day he saw that there were 2 steel coils in each > end of the car. He thinks that they were travelling incognito from Weirton > Steel to then Wheeling Steel to fill orders. He mentioned that there was a > very heavy steel bar across the doorway held on by a couple of "S" clips and > felt that they were only removeable by a forklift or something. Anybody > have any info on this or photos? Guess this is one of the rarities that > took place on the Panhandle Division. > > Doug > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 05:08:49 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] The N6 Cabin Car Follies of 2001 (long) First Jack Consoli wrote: In a message dated 11/4/01 11:28:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, jconsoli@paonline.com writes: << Rick, I was thinking of you the other day when I was in at the State Archives (here in Harrisburg) doing some diesel research. If I recall correctly, you had posted something about yourself and others? working on trying to sort out the history/evolution of the N6A, N6B and earlier class cabin cars. If my memory serves me right, you mentioned that the information to figure this out was hard to come by. Am I remembering this correctly? Anyway, if you are looking for this information, I believe at least a good bit of it exists in pretty succinct form. The PRR kept what they called Historical Record Cards for all pieces of rolling stock. The Archives has (at least some) these cards on microfilm. The cabin cards are mixed in with the freight equipment. When I happened to stop on one of the N6B cards while scaning a reel (for diesels), I thought of you. The card I looked at showed the following information, amongst other data for this particular car: PFW&C Ry car #996300 built as NC at Fort Wayne, 8/02: Class changed to N6A, (re)built by PRR Co. at Fort Wayne, 2/17/15 (at a cost of $280): renumbered to #980836 at Conway 5/26/21: Class changed to N6B at Renovo 10/18/41. As far as the offset or centered cupola issue, I thought someone published the info that cars built new as N6A or N6B had center cupolas, the cars rebuilt from the older classes had the offset cupolas - resulting from the shops basically cutting the car at one end and splicing in more body - as we modelers might kitbash a model, leaving the cupola in its original position relative to the un-cut end. Anyway, if you guys are looking for this stuff, it appears to "out there". Jack Consoli >> ****************************** Then I wrote: Message: 2 Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:45:38 EST From: RickTipton@aol.com Subject: N6A/N6B Origins documented! Jack -- Wow. And again wow! This information will cause unending amounts of excitement, anguish, and horror among Pennsy fans. Imagine being able to take, for instance, the two N6b's assigned to Xenia in 1955 and track them back to their 4-wheel bobber roots. I suspect you have just liberated a group of Lines Westerners from a swamp of guesswork, and have elevated our questions to a library quest. Of course, we don't know what fraction of the cabin fleet is documented here, but even fragmentary info is better than what we have now. If these goodies ever get tabulated, the next quest would be to attempt correlating the window size/position of known cabin photographs to see if any conclusions can be drawn about the original bobber body dictating the final visual result. BTW, my friend Tom Vondruska has hypothesized that center cupola N6's were built new. I've heard others speculate that a pre-existing woodie's body could have been centered on the new steel underframe and then both ends moved out. I have no hard knowledge either way, although I agree with Tom that if I were the car carpenter, I'd think it's less work to move one end rather than both. I need to review what's appeared in the Keystone over the years, but I don't remember an article that pretended to nail any of this down. So I think you've just projected us into new research territory. Again, thank you. Rick Tipton ************************************* Then Bob Johnson (the voice of experience) wrote: Message: 10 Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:59:02 -0500 From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: N6A/N6B Origins documented! Rick and lists: I think your first paragraph hits the nail right on the head - excitement, anguish and horror. First off, the records mentioned by Jack Consoli are not complete. The full series title is "Historical Record Cards for Retired Freight Cars, ca. 1950-1967". Cabin cars scrapped before 1950 or after 1967 are not included. Also, the information given is not always complete or accurate. For example, another series, "Lines West Historical Books: Freight Car Equipment", shows car #996300 not as a plain NC, but as an NC with "High Cupola". In other words, the same cupola as on an NE or N6A. Second, there are many sources of cabin car information at the Penna. State Archives. This might seem to be good news, but it greatly complicates the mission of trying to gather all the data, to say nothing of making sense of it. For example, I've spent some 67 full days at the State Archives and am not nearly done taking data. Admittedly, not all the time was spent on cabin cars. Third, while all of the records are official PRR primary sources, they are of varying legibility and accuracy. Most of the records are hand written and tough to decipher. That old saw our teachers told us about how clear and legible handwriting was in the old days was a lie. As for accuracy, Al Buchan asked me to help with the cabin car section of his book on the Erie & Pittsburgh. This was a tiny portion of the PRR, whose 38 cabin cars ca. 1920 represented only about 1% of the total. Among five different sets of official records, I found factual conflicts involving 18 of the cars. Just gathering this small amount of information and resolving the conflicting data took many days of effort. So, the information IS there, but obtaining it and resolving conflicts for all the cabin cars (or even just all the N6a and N6b cars) will take a major effort. Anything less will simply perpetuate errors and misinformation. Bob Johnson ************************ And Al Buchan wrote: Message: 17 Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:20:53 -0500 From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: N6A/N6B Origins documented! I can attest to Bob's tenacity in trying to sort out the E&P cabin data. There is no doubt about it, Bob does nice work. Bob has also become quite adept at moving map files from South Jersey to Lewistown for the archives. Ask him the next time you see him. I think he will be doing a commercial for U-Haul truck rentals in the near future. It is rumored to be titled "Making Memories in Moving with Bob and Judy." ;^) Al ****************************** And then Ian Fischer sent me a note: Hi Guys! I agree with Bob Johnson about the N6B records. It seems like the Lines West guys weren't the best record keepers to begin with, and then everything got scrambled when the Lines West operation was shut down and the records taken over by Lines East. Ian ******************************** Then Jack Consoli wrote again, Message: 21 Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 22:38:46 -0500 From: jconsoli@paonline.com Subject: Re: N6A/N6B Origins documented! Rick and lists: This is definitely a "good news, bad news" story as Bob Johnson explained. My intent was to alert you that all hope is not lost in your quest and this is a place to start looking for these records, but it would by no means be a simple or quick project to sort out this story. Bob touched many of the pitfalls; missing, incomplete, conflicting and illegible information. I have encountered all the above in the work I have been doing as well. There is the additional problem of "feast or famine". You find yourself starting out with little or no information and once you get into this stuff you feel like there is more there than you can ever possibly sort through to extract what you want. Then there is that minor problem of finding the free time to do the work during business hours! Jack Consoli ********************************* And now I (Rick Tipton) say, It was still very kind of Jack Consoli to inform me of this data source, even though it's obviously not the only one, and it's not dead nuts free from error, and it's one heckuva long distance from where I live. It's also kind of Bob and Al and Ian to let me know (gently) that this isn't the Rosetta Stone of cabin car history. Clearly, it's foolish for me to expect these records to eradicate our ignorance on the subject. Still, one can hope to put some new dents in that ignorance. Maybe someday we can build a database of what's out there available and attempt to generate some conclusions. And that's far better than sitting around the Komputer Kampfire trading folklore and superstitions about N6 cabin cars. ****************** Incidentally, for the benefit of those who are pained by the continual chatter about the N6 cabin car rebuilds, I should mention that I got a couple of notes (not repeated here) from gents who are fed up with the whole subject. They contained some profanely innovative but unlikely suggestions for resolving these questions. After finding out we're still in the swamp, and the water's still rising, and there are more alligators than at first reported, I'd like to assure these long-suffering folks that I sympathize with their pain. I apologize for bringing up such an ugly subject. And I promise not to do it again for at least a week... unless something good comes up! Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 05:08:42 EST Subject: [PRR] Cincinnati District designation, Columbus Division In a message dated 11/7/01 1:12:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Subject: PRR 980718 From: "Bill Lane" Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 06:49:35 -0500 Steve and list, 980718 was an N6b assigned in 1958 to the Buckeye region on train Columbus B-CN 29-30. Hope that helped, Bill >> Looks like that era's version of CN-29/30. I believe that the CN designation indicates the old Cincinnati Division or District. BTW, there was still a PRR Cincinnati District ETT in 1955. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 05:08:49 EST Subject: [PRR] The N6 Cabin Car Follies of 2001 (long) First Jack Consoli wrote: In a message dated 11/4/01 11:28:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, jconsoli@paonline.com writes: << Rick, I was thinking of you the other day when I was in at the State Archives (here in Harrisburg) doing some diesel research. If I recall correctly, you had posted something about yourself and others? working on trying to sort out the history/evolution of the N6A, N6B and earlier class cabin cars. If my memory serves me right, you mentioned that the information to figure this out was hard to come by. Am I remembering this correctly? Anyway, if you are looking for this information, I believe at least a good bit of it exists in pretty succinct form. The PRR kept what they called Historical Record Cards for all pieces of rolling stock. The Archives has (at least some) these cards on microfilm. The cabin cards are mixed in with the freight equipment. When I happened to stop on one of the N6B cards while scaning a reel (for diesels), I thought of you. The card I looked at showed the following information, amongst other data for this particular car: PFW&C Ry car #996300 built as NC at Fort Wayne, 8/02: Class changed to N6A, (re)built by PRR Co. at Fort Wayne, 2/17/15 (at a cost of $280): renumbered to #980836 at Conway 5/26/21: Class changed to N6B at Renovo 10/18/41. As far as the offset or centered cupola issue, I thought someone published the info that cars built new as N6A or N6B had center cupolas, the cars rebuilt from the older classes had the offset cupolas - resulting from the shops basically cutting the car at one end and splicing in more body - as we modelers might kitbash a model, leaving the cupola in its original position relative to the un-cut end. Anyway, if you guys are looking for this stuff, it appears to "out there". Jack Consoli >> ****************************** Then I wrote: Message: 2 Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 14:45:38 EST From: RickTipton@aol.com Subject: N6A/N6B Origins documented! Jack -- Wow. And again wow! This information will cause unending amounts of excitement, anguish, and horror among Pennsy fans. Imagine being able to take, for instance, the two N6b's assigned to Xenia in 1955 and track them back to their 4-wheel bobber roots. I suspect you have just liberated a group of Lines Westerners from a swamp of guesswork, and have elevated our questions to a library quest. Of course, we don't know what fraction of the cabin fleet is documented here, but even fragmentary info is better than what we have now. If these goodies ever get tabulated, the next quest would be to attempt correlating the window size/position of known cabin photographs to see if any conclusions can be drawn about the original bobber body dictating the final visual result. BTW, my friend Tom Vondruska has hypothesized that center cupola N6's were built new. I've heard others speculate that a pre-existing woodie's body could have been centered on the new steel underframe and then both ends moved out. I have no hard knowledge either way, although I agree with Tom that if I were the car carpenter, I'd think it's less work to move one end rather than both. I need to review what's appeared in the Keystone over the years, but I don't remember an article that pretended to nail any of this down. So I think you've just projected us into new research territory. Again, thank you. Rick Tipton ************************************* Then Bob Johnson (the voice of experience) wrote: Message: 10 Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 16:59:02 -0500 From: "Bob Johnson" Subject: Re: N6A/N6B Origins documented! Rick and lists: I think your first paragraph hits the nail right on the head - excitement, anguish and horror. First off, the records mentioned by Jack Consoli are not complete. The full series title is "Historical Record Cards for Retired Freight Cars, ca. 1950-1967". Cabin cars scrapped before 1950 or after 1967 are not included. Also, the information given is not always complete or accurate. For example, another series, "Lines West Historical Books: Freight Car Equipment", shows car #996300 not as a plain NC, but as an NC with "High Cupola". In other words, the same cupola as on an NE or N6A. Second, there are many sources of cabin car information at the Penna. State Archives. This might seem to be good news, but it greatly complicates the mission of trying to gather all the data, to say nothing of making sense of it. For example, I've spent some 67 full days at the State Archives and am not nearly done taking data. Admittedly, not all the time was spent on cabin cars. Third, while all of the records are official PRR primary sources, they are of varying legibility and accuracy. Most of the records are hand written and tough to decipher. That old saw our teachers told us about how clear and legible handwriting was in the old days was a lie. As for accuracy, Al Buchan asked me to help with the cabin car section of his book on the Erie & Pittsburgh. This was a tiny portion of the PRR, whose 38 cabin cars ca. 1920 represented only about 1% of the total. Among five different sets of official records, I found factual conflicts involving 18 of the cars. Just gathering this small amount of information and resolving the conflicting data took many days of effort. So, the information IS there, but obtaining it and resolving conflicts for all the cabin cars (or even just all the N6a and N6b cars) will take a major effort. Anything less will simply perpetuate errors and misinformation. Bob Johnson ************************ And Al Buchan wrote: Message: 17 Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 19:20:53 -0500 From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: N6A/N6B Origins documented! I can attest to Bob's tenacity in trying to sort out the E&P cabin data. There is no doubt about it, Bob does nice work. Bob has also become quite adept at moving map files from South Jersey to Lewistown for the archives. Ask him the next time you see him. I think he will be doing a commercial for U-Haul truck rentals in the near future. It is rumored to be titled "Making Memories in Moving with Bob and Judy." ;^) Al ****************************** And then Ian Fischer sent me a note: Hi Guys! I agree with Bob Johnson about the N6B records. It seems like the Lines West guys weren't the best record keepers to begin with, and then everything got scrambled when the Lines West operation was shut down and the records taken over by Lines East. Ian ******************************** Then Jack Consoli wrote again, Message: 21 Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 22:38:46 -0500 From: jconsoli@paonline.com Subject: Re: N6A/N6B Origins documented! Rick and lists: This is definitely a "good news, bad news" story as Bob Johnson explained. My intent was to alert you that all hope is not lost in your quest and this is a place to start looking for these records, but it would by no means be a simple or quick project to sort out this story. Bob touched many of the pitfalls; missing, incomplete, conflicting and illegible information. I have encountered all the above in the work I have been doing as well. There is the additional problem of "feast or famine". You find yourself starting out with little or no information and once you get into this stuff you feel like there is more there than you can ever possibly sort through to extract what you want. Then there is that minor problem of finding the free time to do the work during business hours! Jack Consoli ********************************* And now I (Rick Tipton) say, It was still very kind of Jack Consoli to inform me of this data source, even though it's obviously not the only one, and it's not dead nuts free from error, and it's one heckuva long distance from where I live. It's also kind of Bob and Al and Ian to let me know (gently) that this isn't the Rosetta Stone of cabin car history. Clearly, it's foolish for me to expect these records to eradicate our ignorance on the subject. Still, one can hope to put some new dents in that ignorance. Maybe someday we can build a database of what's out there available and attempt to generate some conclusions. And that's far better than sitting around the Komputer Kampfire trading folklore and superstitions about N6 cabin cars. ****************** Incidentally, for the benefit of those who are pained by the continual chatter about the N6 cabin car rebuilds, I should mention that I got a couple of notes (not repeated here) from gents who are fed up with the whole subject. They contained some profanely innovative but unlikely suggestions for resolving these questions. After finding out we're still in the swamp, and the water's still rising, and there are more alligators than at first reported, I'd like to assure these long-suffering folks that I sympathize with their pain. I apologize for bringing up such an ugly subject. And I promise not to do it again for at least a week... unless something good comes up! Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] Round roof-no doors. Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 22:26:34 -0500 Regarding the discussion of ex-PRR box cars once owned by Wierton Steel... Wierton Steel still owns a small fleet of box cars (although no longer any Pennsy that I can find). They are nevertheless extremely interesting as they retain the original paint from their owners--including the likes of Ann Arbor, etc. Much ex-Penn Central rolling stock is included in the Wierton Steel fleet, and it's quite likely that several of the gondolas may really be ex-PRR. It's possible to see much of this equipment from Rt. 22 coming downhill to the bridge over the Ohio River. Rt. 22 overlooks Wierton Steel's "Main Street Yard" and you can park on the berm of the highway and even photograph (telephoto helps--it's high up) the rolling stock. Down there also is the diesel terminal with Wierton Steel's black-and-yellow SW1500's. Terry Stuart The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP Railfan B&B 62 Beaver Street Fallston, PA 15066 www.forcomm.net/flagstop ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Round roof-no doors. Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:23:24 -0600 Alittle known fact is that most refining companies today use anyone's gasoline in their pumps, as long as it meets specifications. This is particularly true of regular gas, less so for premioum. -----Original Message----- From: David (Fresh) Freshwater [mailto:dfresh20@erols.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 10:39 PM To: Doug Day Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Round roof-no doors. It took me almost a month to get some info on this because of travel and what not. The source is my dad, who worked in the Shipping Department at Weirton from the early 1950s until the mid-1980s. Dad said that they were 50 foot round roof cars that Weirton had purchased from the PRR. That would make the cars in question ex-PRR X32s. Purchasing cars second hand was pretty common for Weirton. My copy of the Jan 1953 ORER is missing right now, but Weirton is listed in there with a fleet of box cars and others. They only had a few cars that were cleared for interchange - they were tank cars used to ship in and out lube oil and such for the machines in the mill - like the rolling mills. The cars would only carry about 115,000 pounds, so they never looked like they were fully loaded. The bars across the doors were for convenience, to keep the steel coils from rolling out. Having heard some of the mill stories, I can guess that the doors got pretty beaten up quickly. So the bars across the doors saved maintenance cost. Weirton Steel did have a mill building over in Steubenville in the 1950s. Some coils were shipped from the hot mill or tandem mill over there for finishing. Dad worked in shipping over there for a while. But, what was not commonly known was that there was a deal between Weirton and Wheeling Steel to process each others product when the other company got an order that they couldn't handle on their own. When that was the case, they'd ship the coils between the plants, just like the movements mentioned. (Dad also mentioned that, at least once, Weirton bought an order of steel from U.S. Steel and finished it and shipped it off to Weirton's customers.) Another little known fact: When the shipping department ordered in 10 rail cars, 6 would come from the Pennsy and 4 from the B&O. In order to do some of the movements in Steubenville, they had to move either across or on B&O rails. This was either a pay back for trackage rights or just giving everyone a little piece of the business. Thanks for another excuse to pick Dad's brain. Sorry it took so long to do it and provide the info. Dave Freshwater Doug Day wrote: > List, > > Talking to a fellow SPF here in the Panhandle Division yesterday and he was > telling me that probably in the late 50's that there were round roof boxcars > with no doors being sent from Weirton, WV across the bridge to Steubenville, > OH. Upon inspection one day he saw that there were 2 steel coils in each > end of the car. He thinks that they were travelling incognito from Weirton > Steel to then Wheeling Steel to fill orders. He mentioned that there was a > very heavy steel bar across the doorway held on by a couple of "S" clips and > felt that they were only removeable by a forklift or something. Anybody > have any info on this or photos? Guess this is one of the rarities that > took place on the Panhandle Division. > > Doug > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 11:49:33 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Grade Crossing at LEMO From: Jerry Britton Unfortunately I received very few responses to me query yesterday about the grade crossing at LEMO (Lemoyne, Pa.). However, I have narrowed the search! I am trying to determine when the second track of the Cumberland Valley Branch through the interlocking, specifically the crossing through the Northern Central Branch, was torn out. I previously quoted a 1938 pre-electrification shot that appeared in "The Keystone", Autumn 1997, page 7 which shows two tracks. Page 9 of that same issue shows the crossing "in the mid 1950's" with a single track. I have found a photo in "Triumph II", from the Ted Xeras collection, which is dated 1949. It shows two tracks. So, I have narrowed the removal to after 1949 and before "the mid 1950's". Can anyone help? Anyone know of an e-mail address or phone number for Ted Xeras? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 13:18:36 -0500 From: "Vagel C. Keller, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Grade Crossing at LEMO --On Wednesday, November 7, 2001 11:49 AM -0500 Jerry Britton wrote: > I have found a photo in "Triumph II" and the caption is correct? This is a book in which the engraving of the Cumberland Valley bridge at Harrisburg that graced the dust jacket of Westhaefer's definitive history of the CVRR is purported to be the down stream span belonging to a Reading subsidiary. I'd want a second opinion on anything purported to be about LEMO/"J" or the Cumberland Valley RR in general in that book. Vagel Keller Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 13:21:53 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Grade Crossing at LEMO From: Jerry Britton On 11/7/01 1:18 PM, Vagel C. Keller, Jr. (vck@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote: >> I have found a photo in "Triumph II" > > and the caption is correct? This is a book in which the engraving of the > Cumberland Valley bridge at Harrisburg that graced the dust jacket of > Westhaefer's definitive history of the CVRR is purported to be the down > stream span belonging to a Reading subsidiary. I'd want a second opinion > on anything purported to be about LEMO/"J" or the Cumberland Valley RR in > general in that book. > Which is why I asked for an e-mail address or phone number for Ted Xeras, the collection to which the photograph is attributed!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steven Bundick" Subject: Re: [PRR] Grade Crossing at LEMO Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 19:47:26 -0500 This may narrow it down slightly. An interlocking diagram correct as of 1-1-57 shows only 1 track. The last revision to the interlocking is 12-31-56...could this be the date? Someone forgot to update the notes also, since it still states the speed limit betwen State and Lemo, tracks 1 & 2, as 15 MPH. Steve >Unfortunately I received very few responses to me query yesterday about the >grade crossing at LEMO (Lemoyne, Pa.). However, I have narrowed the search! > >I am trying to determine when the second track of the Cumberland Valley >Branch through the interlocking, specifically the crossing through the >Northern Central Branch, was torn out. > >I previously quoted a 1938 pre-electrification shot that appeared in "The >Keystone", Autumn 1997, page 7 which shows two tracks. > >Page 9 of that same issue shows the crossing "in the mid 1950's" with a >single track. > >I have found a photo in "Triumph II", from the Ted Xeras collection, which >is dated 1949. It shows two tracks. > >So, I have narrowed the removal to after 1949 and before "the mid 1950's". > >Can anyone help? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 19:05:16 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Website Updated I have updated my website: http://www.randsrailstuff.net/Pennsylvania%20Railroad%20Freight%20Schedules/HOME.htm Newest item is a list of all interchanges on the PRR effective November 1st, 1965. 11pages worth of interchanges. Stop by and take a look. Regards, Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy Williamson Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 19:05:16 -0600 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Website Updated I have updated my website: http://www.randsrailstuff.net/Pennsylvania%20Railroad%20Freight%20Schedules/HOME.htm Newest item is a list of all interchanges on the PRR effective November 1st, 1965. 11pages worth of interchanges. Stop by and take a look. Regards, Randy ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95 Refill any ink cartridge for less! Includes black and color ink. http://us.click.yahoo.com/E11sED/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 07:50:39 -0500 From: "David (Fresh) Freshwater" Subject: Re: [PRR] Round roof-no doors. Another good spot for taking photos of Weirton Steel operations is in Weirton itself. Get off US22 and get onto WVA Route 2 in town. It crosses over the tracks that runs through the mill (and is the old PRR New Cumberland Branch). The Basic Oxygen works is on the east side of Rte 2; a lot of the older mill buildings are to the west. You can also work around to the north of the mill and take pictures of the operations around the blast furnances. One member of my club went over there on my recommendation and happened to catch a pour of molten steel or slag into a car. All this is visible from the sidewalks on city streets. A telephoto lens is pretty much a necessity. Dave Freshwater Former resident of Wellsburg, WV "W. Terry Stuart" wrote: > Regarding the discussion of ex-PRR box cars once owned by Wierton Steel... > > Wierton Steel still owns a small fleet of box cars (although no longer any > Pennsy that I can find). They are nevertheless extremely interesting as > they retain the original paint from their owners--including the likes of Ann > Arbor, etc. Much ex-Penn Central rolling stock is included in the Wierton > Steel fleet, and it's quite likely that several of the gondolas may really > be ex-PRR. It's possible to see much of this equipment from Rt. 22 coming > downhill to the bridge over the Ohio River. Rt. 22 overlooks Wierton > Steel's "Main Street Yard" and you can park on the berm of the highway and > even photograph (telephoto helps--it's high up) the rolling stock. Down > there also is the diesel terminal with Wierton Steel's black-and-yellow > SW1500's. > > Terry Stuart > The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP Railfan B&B > 62 Beaver Street > Fallston, PA 15066 > www.forcomm.net/flagstop > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 08:02:05 -0500 From: James Stob Subject: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver Dear Pennsy Groups, While the PRR certainly had the finest operations of all the nation's railroads, the also had the very finest dining car services which, even though a big money loser, were maintained to the highest standards to the very end in 1968. Best regards, Jim Stob PRRT&HS 6951 http://home.mindspring.com/~jimstob/index.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 08:20:46 -0600 As a Pennsy fan, and with all due respect, I think there would be many that havening riden the trains in the 50' and 60s, would dispute the statemtn that the PRR "had the fineest dining car services..." -----Original Message----- From: James Stob [mailto:jimstob@mindspring.com] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 7:02 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com; PRR@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver Dear Pennsy Groups, While the PRR certainly had the finest operations of all the nation's railroads, the also had the very finest dining car services which, even though a big money loser, were maintained to the highest standards to the very end in 1968. Best regards, Jim Stob PRRT&HS 6951 http://home.mindspring.com/~jimstob/index.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bennett Levin Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 09:41:41 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver Come on, Sindney Phelps was a genius. He introduced America to Gray Poupon in the late 1950's! "Cadwell, Marvin L" wrote: > > As a Pennsy fan, and with all due respect, I think there would be many that > havening riden the trains in the 50' and 60s, would dispute the statemtn > that the PRR "had the fineest dining car services..." > > -----Original Message----- > From: James Stob [mailto:jimstob@mindspring.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 7:02 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com; PRR@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver > > Dear Pennsy Groups, > > While the PRR certainly had the finest operations of all the nation's > railroads, the also had the very finest dining car services which, even > though a big money loser, were maintained to the highest standards to > the very end in 1968. > > Best regards, > > Jim Stob > PRRT&HS 6951 > > http://home.mindspring.com/~jimstob/index.html > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 09:41:41 -0500 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver Come on, Sindney Phelps was a genius. He introduced America to Gray Poupon in the late 1950's! "Cadwell, Marvin L" wrote: > > As a Pennsy fan, and with all due respect, I think there would be many that > havening riden the trains in the 50' and 60s, would dispute the statemtn > that the PRR "had the fineest dining car services..." > > -----Original Message----- > From: James Stob [mailto:jimstob@mindspring.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 7:02 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com; PRR@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver > > Dear Pennsy Groups, > > While the PRR certainly had the finest operations of all the nation's > railroads, the also had the very finest dining car services which, even > though a big money loser, were maintained to the highest standards to > the very end in 1968. > > Best regards, > > Jim Stob > PRRT&HS 6951 > > http://home.mindspring.com/~jimstob/index.html > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 12:35:29 -0500 I hope nobody confuses the first rate dining car service with the abbreviated and sometimes totally inadequate club car feeding. I ate in both during that period and have little good to say about the club cars. I do agree with the statement that the dining cars were a wonderful culinary experience. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "'James Stob'" ; ; ; Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 9:20 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver > As a Pennsy fan, and with all due respect, I think there would be many that > havening riden the trains in the 50' and 60s, would dispute the statemtn > that the PRR "had the fineest dining car services..." > > -----Original Message----- > From: James Stob [mailto:jimstob@mindspring.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 7:02 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com; PRR@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver > > > Dear Pennsy Groups, > > While the PRR certainly had the finest operations of all the nation's > railroads, the also had the very finest dining car services which, even > though a big money loser, were maintained to the highest standards to > the very end in 1968. > > Best regards, > > Jim Stob > PRRT&HS 6951 > > http://home.mindspring.com/~jimstob/index.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 15:57:35 -0500 Subject: [PRR] More on Lemoyne From: Jerry Britton Okay, so yesterday I report a photo in "Triumph II" dated 1949 that shows the Cumberland Valley Branch with two tracks... ...and Vagel counters with "and you believe that date?" Hmmm. Now I see that "Trackside North of Washington" has a great color shot from the Northern Central looking railroad west. It is dated 1948. And guess what, the CV is single-tracked!!! One of these two is obviously wrong! First, I challenge the Washington book. Is it that plausible that color of this quality was taken in 1948? Or was it later? Second, the photo from Triumph appears to be the same (or very similar) to one appearing in "Model Railroader" in July of 1995. The MR article indicates it is from the 1960's. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 16:11:23 -0500 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver True. Sidney Phelps also introduced snack bar coach sandwiches, composed of paper thin single slices of ham and cheese, and an incredibly flat synthetic lettuce, served on preserved white sliced bread, wrapped in double layer saran wrap for your protection. It was served with a plastic packet of Heinz mustard, in a cardboard tray. Grey Poupon was only served in Parlor Cars, and full diners. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bennett Levin" To: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Cc: "'James Stob'" ; ; ; Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 9:41 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver > Come on, Sindney Phelps was a genius. He introduced America to Gray > Poupon in the late 1950's! > > "Cadwell, Marvin L" wrote: > > > > As a Pennsy fan, and with all due respect, I think there would be many that > > havening riden the trains in the 50' and 60s, would dispute the statemtn > > that the PRR "had the fineest dining car services..." > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: James Stob [mailto:jimstob@mindspring.com] > > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 7:02 AM > > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com; PRR@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver > > > > Dear Pennsy Groups, > > > > While the PRR certainly had the finest operations of all the nation's > > railroads, the also had the very finest dining car services which, even > > though a big money loser, were maintained to the highest standards to > > the very end in 1968. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Jim Stob > > PRRT&HS 6951 > > > > http://home.mindspring.com/~jimstob/index.html > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 16:17:15 -0500 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver Dining car service during the "club car feeding era", was limited to 28/29; 48/49; 3/4; 30/31, and the Southern trains (operated by the respective foreign railroads). It was at best hit or miss, depending on the train, the day, and the crew. I had some really great meals, and some real "bromo bombers". There was little consistency. The club car meals were horrid, and the snack bar coach food, worse than horrid. JW ----- Original Message ----- from: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" ; "Cadwell, Marvin L" Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 12:35 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver > I hope nobody confuses the first rate dining car service with the > abbreviated and sometimes totally inadequate club car feeding. I ate in > both during that period and have little good to say about the club cars. I > do agree with the statement that the dining cars were a wonderful culinary > experience. > > Lew > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" > To: "'James Stob'" ; ; > ; > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 9:20 AM > Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver > > > > As a Pennsy fan, and with all due respect, I think there would be many > that > > havening riden the trains in the 50' and 60s, would dispute the statemtn > > that the PRR "had the fineest dining car services..." > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: James Stob [mailto:jimstob@mindspring.com] > > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 7:02 AM > > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com; PRR@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver > > > > > > Dear Pennsy Groups, > > > > While the PRR certainly had the finest operations of all the nation's > > railroads, the also had the very finest dining car services which, even > > though a big money loser, were maintained to the highest standards to > > the very end in 1968. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Jim Stob > > PRRT&HS 6951 > > > > http://home.mindspring.com/~jimstob/index.html > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 16:29:33 -0500 From: James Stob Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver Did Sydney Phelps of the PRR dining car department choose all of the patterns going back to 1895 as well? If so, I'd like to know what was in his ORIGINAL Grey Poupon!! It's too bad about those sandwiches! What a great piece of Pennsy trivia! If you don't agree about the dining car food (and I only experienced it in the '60s), at least you can admire the EMPTY chinaware...and you'll have to admit that my wife arranges the windows pretty well! Visit my PRR china and silver website. http://home.mindspring.com/~jimstob/index.html God Bless! Jim Stob Bennett Levin wrote: > Come on, Sindney Phelps was a genius. He introduced America to Gray > Poupon in the late 1950's! > >>> > "Cadwell, Marvin L" wrote: > > > > As a Pennsy fan, and with all due respect, I think there would be > many that > > havening riden the trains in the 50' and 60s, would dispute the > statemtn > > that the PRR "had the fineest dining car services..." > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: James Stob [mailto:jimstob@mindspring.com] > > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 7:02 AM > > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com; > PRR@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver > > > Dear Pennsy Groups, > > > > While the PRR certainly had the finest operations of all the > nation's > > railroads, the also had the very finest dining car services which, > even > > though a big money loser, were maintained to the highest standards > to > > the very end in 1968. > > > > Best regards, > > > > > Jim Stob > > PRRT&HS 6951 > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > - > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 17:04:51 -0500 Folks, I always blamed those sandwiches on the Union News Company and marveled at where one could get a slicer that would convert ham into window glass simply by slicing thin enough to be transparent. I don't think these came from the Dining Car Dept. at Sunnyside. As far as culinary ability, I ate on a number of railroads in the last dozen or so years of private passenger operations, including on the "Broadway", and would say that PRR fare was generally good but unimaginative (the prime rib was delicious). I would rate ATSF the best as Fred Harvey still ran its dining cars. Also enjoyed the wild game dinners on the Southern (if you're going to charge "an arm & a leg" might as well give 'em something different). The "Panama Limited's" New Orleans cuisine was memorable as well. As a former PRR salesman, I well remember Sid Phelps - when we needed "giveaways", we could always order matchbooks from him when we couldn't get anything out of Six Penn center. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Witcofsky" To: ; "Cadwell, Marvin L" Cc: "'James Stob'" ; ; ; Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 4:11 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver > True. Sidney Phelps also introduced snack bar coach sandwiches, composed of > paper thin single slices of ham and cheese, and an incredibly flat synthetic > lettuce, served on preserved white sliced bread, wrapped in double layer > saran wrap for your protection. It was served with a plastic packet of Heinz > mustard, in a cardboard tray. > Grey Poupon was only served in Parlor Cars, and full diners. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bennett Levin" > To: "Cadwell, Marvin L" > Cc: "'James Stob'" ; ; > ; > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 9:41 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver > > > > Come on, Sindney Phelps was a genius. He introduced America to Gray > > Poupon in the late 1950's! > > > > "Cadwell, Marvin L" wrote: > > > > > > As a Pennsy fan, and with all due respect, I think there would be many > that > > > havening riden the trains in the 50' and 60s, would dispute the statemtn > > > that the PRR "had the fineest dining car services..." > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: James Stob [mailto:jimstob@mindspring.com] > > > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 7:02 AM > > > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com; PRR@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver > > > > > > Dear Pennsy Groups, > > > > > > While the PRR certainly had the finest operations of all the nation's > > > railroads, the also had the very finest dining car services which, even > > > though a big money loser, were maintained to the highest standards to > > > the very end in 1968. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Jim Stob > > > PRRT&HS 6951 > > > > > > http://home.mindspring.com/~jimstob/index.html > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 17:12:42 -0500 Subject: [PRR] More Definitive Info on LEMO From: Jerry Britton Next verse... The Cumberland Valley Branch was still double-tracked through LEMO through at least Jan. 1, 1952. Bank on it!!! I had (and didn't seem to know it) a PRR-published book titled Pennsylvania Railroad Inspection Trip Monday, Oct. 13, 1952 Track Charts, Maps, Yard Plans New York to Enola-Harrisburg Eventually I'll have to get this online for all! Anyway, it contains a drawing from the Office of Division Engineer dated Jan. 1, 1952. It CLEARLY shows two tracks on the CV through LEMO!!! A new twist: Only one is electrified! The south track is electrified and the north is not. In summary: Two tracks still there in 1952 per this book. Single track in "1950's" per "Triumph II". Getting ever closer to "What Was In 1954?" --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 22:49:13 +0000 Listers: Interesting thread! I was wondering when was the golden age of food service on the PRR? Were there certain eras that were good and others bad like the late '50's and '60's? How was the food service during WW II? I know in the PRRt&HS "The Keystone," has one recipe printed on page two. Was there every a book that was published (for the masses) of these recipes? If not, I think that the PRRT&HS should publish them in a book. I think that they would sell. I am off to dinner. I think I will have spaghetti squash with italian sauce ans seasoning.....all in a PRR Purple Laurel julienne bowl. :) Ted >From: "Gregg Mahlkov" >To: "Joe Witcofsky" , >, "Cadwell, Marvin L" >CC: "'James Stob'" , , >, >Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver >Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 17:04:51 -0500 > >Folks, > >I always blamed those sandwiches on the Union News Company and marveled at >where one could get a slicer that would convert ham into window glass >simply >by slicing thin enough to be transparent. I don't think these came from the >Dining Car Dept. at Sunnyside. > >As far as culinary ability, I ate on a number of railroads in the last >dozen >or so years of private passenger operations, including on the "Broadway", >and would say that PRR fare was generally good but unimaginative (the prime >rib was delicious). I would rate ATSF the best as Fred Harvey still ran its >dining cars. Also enjoyed the wild game dinners on the Southern (if you're >going to charge "an arm & a leg" might as well give 'em something >different). The "Panama Limited's" New Orleans cuisine was memorable as >well. > >As a former PRR salesman, I well remember Sid Phelps - when we needed >"giveaways", we could always order matchbooks from him when we couldn't get >anything out of Six Penn center. > >Gregg Mahlkov > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joe Witcofsky" >To: ; "Cadwell, Marvin L" >Cc: "'James Stob'" ; ; >; >Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 4:11 PM >Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver > > > > True. Sidney Phelps also introduced snack bar coach sandwiches, >composed >of > > paper thin single slices of ham and cheese, and an incredibly flat >synthetic > > lettuce, served on preserved white sliced bread, wrapped in double layer > > saran wrap for your protection. It was served with a plastic packet of >Heinz > > mustard, in a cardboard tray. > > Grey Poupon was only served in Parlor Cars, and full diners. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bennett Levin" > > To: "Cadwell, Marvin L" > > Cc: "'James Stob'" ; ; > > ; > > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 9:41 AM > > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver > > > > > > > Come on, Sindney Phelps was a genius. He introduced America to Gray > > > Poupon in the late 1950's! > > > > > > "Cadwell, Marvin L" wrote: > > > > > > > > As a Pennsy fan, and with all due respect, I think there would be >many > > that > > > > havening riden the trains in the 50' and 60s, would dispute the >statemtn > > > > that the PRR "had the fineest dining car services..." > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: James Stob [mailto:jimstob@mindspring.com] > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 7:02 AM > > > > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PennsyWest@yahoogroups.com; >PRR@yahoogroups.com > > > > Subject: [PRR] PRR Dining Car China & Silver > > > > > > > > Dear Pennsy Groups, > > > > > > > > While the PRR certainly had the finest operations of all the >nation's > > > > railroads, the also had the very finest dining car services which, >even > > > > though a big money loser, were maintained to the highest standards >to > > > > the very end in 1968. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > > > Jim Stob > > > > PRRT&HS 6951 > > > > > > > > http://home.mindspring.com/~jimstob/index.html > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car recipes Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 19:28:22 -0500 Ted Andrews said: > Interesting thread! I was wondering when was the golden age of food service > on the PRR? Was there every a book that was published (for the masses) of these recipes? Dear Ted and list: There have been many good railroad cookbooks published over the years, but I don't have one devoted exclusively to PRR in my collection. James Porterfield wrote "Dining by Rail", copywrite. 1993, pub. by St. Martin's Griffin, NY. This noteworthy tome has 7 pages of authentic PRR delicacies to titillate your appetite, particularly the "veal cutlets in paprika sauce", which is excellent and one of my favorites. Mr. Porterfield has an excellent detailed history of dining cars at the beginning of his book, which is very scholarly and descriptive. He makes a very good case for defining the term "golden age" of dining cars. I got my copy, autographed by the author, at the train show in Timonium two years ago. The author was there with his books and appeared to be doing a landmark business. I've made many of the recipes in the book in the ensuing years and thoroughly enjoyed the results. Well, maybe not the fat ass I got, but the taste was excellent. (Besides building model passenger trains, cooking is my OTHER hobby) Lew Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 20:27:00 -0500 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car recipes I seem to recall that the Friends of the RRMPA publish a complete book of recipies. Bennett "Lewis J. Matt PhD" wrote: > > Ted Andrews said: > > Interesting thread! I was wondering when was the golden age of food > service > > on the PRR? > > Was there every a book that was published (for the masses) of these > recipes? > > Dear Ted and list: > > There have been many good railroad cookbooks published over the years, but I > don't have one devoted exclusively to PRR in my collection. James > Porterfield wrote "Dining by Rail", copywrite. 1993, pub. by St. Martin's > Griffin, NY. This noteworthy tome has 7 pages of authentic PRR delicacies > to titillate your appetite, particularly the "veal cutlets in paprika > sauce", which is excellent and one of my favorites. Mr. Porterfield has an > excellent detailed history of dining cars at the beginning of his book, > which is very scholarly and descriptive. He makes a very good case for > defining the term "golden age" of dining cars. > > I got my copy, autographed by the author, at the train show in Timonium two > years ago. The author was there with his books and appeared to be doing a > landmark business. I've made many of the recipes in the book in the ensuing > years and thoroughly enjoyed the results. Well, maybe not the fat ass I > got, but the taste was excellent. (Besides building model passenger trains, > cooking is my OTHER hobby) > > Lew Matt > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 21:47:54 -0500 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] Subject: [PRR-FAX] Electric <-> Steam swap -----Original Message---- From: Keith B Thompson [mailto:kbt@bit-net.com] Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 9:10 PM To: PRR@yahoogroups.com Subject: [PRR-FAX] Electric <-> Steam swap I am interested in modeling the changing between electric and steam motive power. Can anyone point me at a good reference that describes this operation, engine movements, special track arrangements (if any), etc...? I am interested in both passenger and freight trains. Regards, kbt List- Does anybody have this info for Maclay St. in Harrisburg? I have modeled the AC stop signs but that's all I have. Would be greatly appreciated. Thanx, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling Hbg. & the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 00:06:42 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] More Definitive Info on LEMO --On Thu, Nov 8, 2001 17:12 -0500 "Jerry Britton" wrote: > In summary: Two tracks still there in 1952 per this book. Single track in > "1950's" per "Triumph II". > > Getting ever closer to "What Was In 1954?" And (correct me if I'm wrong) Harrumph II is not a contributor in your getting warm. Lotsa perty pitchers, though. Kinda holds the old saw, "a picture is worth a thousand words," up to question, don't it? Vagel PS: Harrumph IV continues to get it way wrong on connecting lines: EBT and H&BT. Message for Charlie'n'company. Read the published books that are out there and apply. $60+ is a terrible thing to waste. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 00:12:37 -0800 Subject: [PRR] Aerotrain Pittsburgh Photo Mystery? From: "Douglas Nelson" I have a photo from September 1956 of the GM Aerotrain northbound on the eastern leg of the wye approaching the Panhandle Bridge about to enter Pittsburgh. Since the Aerotrain ran between Pittsburgh and New York, what was it doing on the Panhandle Bridge? Was it using the wye to turn the train for its return trip, or did it use a different route through Pittsburgh than the standard PRR route? Thanks for your thoughts. Doug Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 07:34:58 -0500 From: James Stob Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car recipes I visited the museums and their stores this past summer looking for such a book. They didn't have one, nor did they seem to know about one. However, I have seen them offered on eBay, as well as the real, original manuals from the PRR. I, too, want one badly, but they just don't seem to come up on eBay very often. This time, when they come up, I'll be on them! However, if anyone knows of an available PRR manual or a cookbook from the museums, give me a shout! Best regards, Jim Stob Bennett Levin wrote: > I seem to recall that the Friends of the RRMPA publish a complete book > of recipies. > > Bennett > > "Lewis J. Matt PhD" wrote: > > > > Ted Andrews said: > > > Interesting thread! I was wondering when was the golden age of food > > service > > > on the PRR? > > > > Was there every a book that was published (for the masses) of these > > recipes? > > > > Dear Ted and list: > > > > There have been many good railroad cookbooks published over the years, but I > > don't have one devoted exclusively to PRR in my collection. James > > Porterfield wrote "Dining by Rail", copywrite. 1993, pub. by St. Martin's > > Griffin, NY. This noteworthy tome has 7 pages of authentic PRR delicacies > > to titillate your appetite, particularly the "veal cutlets in paprika > > sauce", which is excellent and one of my favorites. Mr. Porterfield has an > > excellent detailed history of dining cars at the beginning of his book, > > which is very scholarly and descriptive. He makes a very good case for > > defining the term "golden age" of dining cars. > > > > I got my copy, autographed by the author, at the train show in Timonium two > > years ago. The author was there with his books and appeared to be doing a > > landmark business. I've made many of the recipes in the book in the ensuing > > years and thoroughly enjoyed the results. Well, maybe not the fat ass I > > got, but the taste was excellent. (Besides building model passenger trains, > > cooking is my OTHER hobby) > > > > Lew Matt > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 08:03:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car recipes From: Jerry Britton On 11/9/01 7:34 AM, James Stob (jimstob@mindspring.com) wrote: > I visited the museums and their stores this past summer looking for such a > book. > They didn't have one, nor did they seem to know about one. However, I have > seen > them offered on eBay, as well as the real, original manuals from the PRR. I, > too, > want one badly, but they just don't seem to come up on eBay very often. This > time, when they come up, I'll be on them! However, if anyone knows of an > available PRR manual or a cookbook from the museums, give me a shout! > One of my many "in progress" works is a database of recipes from the PRR, including those published in "The Keystone". The project is well underway. The database has been created and many recipes are already in. I need to close up two other projects first. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 08:11:21 -0500 From: James Stob Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car recipes FANTASTIC!!! I'll be waiting to hear from you! Best regards, Jim Stob Jerry Britton wrote: > On 11/9/01 7:34 AM, James Stob (jimstob@mindspring.com) wrote: > > > I visited the museums and their stores this past summer looking for such a > > book. > > They didn't have one, nor did they seem to know about one. However, I have > > seen > > them offered on eBay, as well as the real, original manuals from the PRR. I, > > too, > > want one badly, but they just don't seem to come up on eBay very often. This > > time, when they come up, I'll be on them! However, if anyone knows of an > > available PRR manual or a cookbook from the museums, give me a shout! > > > One of my many "in progress" works is a database of recipes from the PRR, > including those published in "The Keystone". > > The project is well underway. The database has been created and many recipes > are already in. > > I need to close up two other projects first. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 08:29:21 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap What always amazed me about engine changes was how _fast_ they seemed to be able to do it, at Manhattan Transfer at least; or how fast the timetable claimed they did it, anyway. Today Amtrak can't seem to do it in less than half an hour, anywhere! Now, just where did the PRR change between steam and electric? For passenger service, in addition to the obvious (Harrisburg, Washington) that would include South Amboy through the end of steam; but we would also have to list temporary, intermediate places on the NY-Washington line as catenary proceeded south. Then there would be movements such as New York to Atlantic City (and maybe Philadelphia to AC also); and what about that brief period when New Haven steam power took over from DD1s at Harold or thereabouts, before the Hell Gate had wires? Also, handoff to Lehigh Valley steam must've taken place, where, at Hunter? I bet this is only the start of a longer list! John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 09:16:27 -0500 List: The PRR-LV handoff is well covered in a sequence of photos in Don Ball's "Pennsylvania Railroad - The 1940's and 1950's" showing the handoff from GG1 to PA1. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 8:29 AM Subject: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap > What always amazed me about engine changes was how _fast_ > they seemed to be able to do it, at Manhattan Transfer at least; or > how fast the timetable claimed they did it, anyway. Today Amtrak > can't seem to do it in less than half an hour, anywhere! > > Now, just where did the PRR change between steam and electric? > For passenger service, in addition to the obvious (Harrisburg, > Washington) that would include South Amboy through the end of > steam; but we would also have to list temporary, intermediate > places on the NY-Washington line as catenary proceeded south. > Then there would be movements such as New York to Atlantic City > (and maybe Philadelphia to AC also); and what about that brief > period when New Haven steam power took over from DD1s at > Harold or thereabouts, before the Hell Gate had wires? Also, > handoff to Lehigh Valley steam must've taken place, where, at > Hunter? > > I bet this is only the start of a longer list! > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car recipes Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 09:18:50 -0500 List: The book, "Dining by Rail" is listed on eBay, the high bid was $12.00 last night. Search by title. It is listed in the "cookbook" category. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Stob" To: Cc: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" ; "Ted Andrews" Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 7:34 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car recipes > I visited the museums and their stores this past summer looking for such a book. > They didn't have one, nor did they seem to know about one. However, I have seen > them offered on eBay, as well as the real, original manuals from the PRR. I, too, > want one badly, but they just don't seem to come up on eBay very often. This > time, when they come up, I'll be on them! However, if anyone knows of an > available PRR manual or a cookbook from the museums, give me a shout! > > Best regards, > > Jim Stob > > Bennett Levin wrote: > > > I seem to recall that the Friends of the RRMPA publish a complete book > > of recipies. > > > > Bennett > > > > "Lewis J. Matt PhD" wrote: > > > > > > Ted Andrews said: > > > > Interesting thread! I was wondering when was the golden age of food > > > service > > > > on the PRR? > > > > > > Was there every a book that was published (for the masses) of these > > > recipes? > > > > > > Dear Ted and list: > > > > > > There have been many good railroad cookbooks published over the years, but I > > > don't have one devoted exclusively to PRR in my collection. James > > > Porterfield wrote "Dining by Rail", copywrite. 1993, pub. by St. Martin's > > > Griffin, NY. This noteworthy tome has 7 pages of authentic PRR delicacies > > > to titillate your appetite, particularly the "veal cutlets in paprika > > > sauce", which is excellent and one of my favorites. Mr. Porterfield has an > > > excellent detailed history of dining cars at the beginning of his book, > > > which is very scholarly and descriptive. He makes a very good case for > > > defining the term "golden age" of dining cars. > > > > > > I got my copy, autographed by the author, at the train show in Timonium two > > > years ago. The author was there with his books and appeared to be doing a > > > landmark business. I've made many of the recipes in the book in the ensuing > > > years and thoroughly enjoyed the results. Well, maybe not the fat ass I > > > got, but the taste was excellent. (Besides building model passenger trains, > > > cooking is my OTHER hobby) > > > > > > Lew Matt > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 9 Nov 2001 10:17:19 EST From: "PETER TYRRELL JR." Subject: [PRR] PRR Re: Electric <-> Steam swap John Bobsin Wrote.... Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car recipes I already have that book. I am looking for an official or manual or book of PRR recipes. Looks like Jerry will have the recipes out in a matter of time. Thanks. Jim Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > List: > > The book, "Dining by Rail" is listed on eBay, the high bid was $12.00 last > night. Search by title. It is listed in the "cookbook" category. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Stob" > To: > Cc: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" > ; "Ted Andrews" > Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 7:34 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car recipes > > > I visited the museums and their stores this past summer looking for such a > book. > > They didn't have one, nor did they seem to know about one. However, I > have seen > > them offered on eBay, as well as the real, original manuals from the PRR. > I, too, > > want one badly, but they just don't seem to come up on eBay very often. > This > > time, when they come up, I'll be on them! However, if anyone knows of an > > available PRR manual or a cookbook from the museums, give me a shout! > > > > Best regards, > > > > Jim Stob > > > > Bennett Levin wrote: > > > > > I seem to recall that the Friends of the RRMPA publish a complete book > > > of recipies. > > > > > > Bennett > > > > > > "Lewis J. Matt PhD" wrote: > > > > > > > > Ted Andrews said: > > > > > Interesting thread! I was wondering when was the golden age of food > > > > service > > > > > on the PRR? > > > > > > > > Was there every a book that was published (for the masses) of these > > > > recipes? > > > > > > > > Dear Ted and list: > > > > > > > > There have been many good railroad cookbooks published over the years, > but I > > > > don't have one devoted exclusively to PRR in my collection. James > > > > Porterfield wrote "Dining by Rail", copywrite. 1993, pub. by St. > Martin's > > > > Griffin, NY. This noteworthy tome has 7 pages of authentic PRR > delicacies > > > > to titillate your appetite, particularly the "veal cutlets in paprika > > > > sauce", which is excellent and one of my favorites. Mr. Porterfield > has an > > > > excellent detailed history of dining cars at the beginning of his > book, > > > > which is very scholarly and descriptive. He makes a very good case > for > > > > defining the term "golden age" of dining cars. > > > > > > > > I got my copy, autographed by the author, at the train show in > Timonium two > > > > years ago. The author was there with his books and appeared to be > doing a > > > > landmark business. I've made many of the recipes in the book in the > ensuing > > > > years and thoroughly enjoyed the results. Well, maybe not the fat ass > I > > > > got, but the taste was excellent. (Besides building model passenger > trains, > > > > cooking is my OTHER hobby) > > > > > > > > Lew Matt > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Dining Car recipes Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 11:09:37 -0500 Listers, I have a book of just PRR recipes that I think I got from the Rail Museum of Pa. many years ago. It has a white soft cover with a small red Keystone in the middle. Unfortunately it got soaked when my basement flooded and is not in good shape. If I can find it tonight I post more details. I never ate in a PRR dining car, but to a 10 yr. old riding The Dusquesne from Harrisburg home to NY. the highlight of the trip was going to the snack bar coach? (counter at the left front, coach seats and then a small parlor area) to get dinner! If there were no head end cars the headlight of the GG1 would be seen through the front door!!! Of course even the sandwiches sold from the carts that use to roll down the aisle were great. I'd love to see a picture of one of those carts. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 12:27:10 EST From: PRRMAN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Aerotrain Pittsburgh Photo Mystery? Barring some kind of charter move, the Aerotrain would not have been carrying passengers on the Panhandle Bridge. My guess is they wyed it there. Other alternatives for turning the Aerotrain would have involved backing all the way out to UY and wyeing on the Brilliant Branch, or crossing the Fort Wayne bridge, going all the way out and over the Ohio Connecting Bridge, and back via the Panhandle. (A fun trip for railfans, but very time-consuming). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Douglas Nelson" Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 00:12:37 -0800 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Aerotrain Pittsburgh Photo Mystery? I have a photo from September 1956 of the GM Aerotrain northbound on the eastern leg of the wye approaching the Panhandle Bridge about to enter Pittsburgh. Since the Aerotrain ran between Pittsburgh and New York, what was it doing on the Panhandle Bridge? Was it using the wye to turn the train for its return trip, or did it use a different route through Pittsburgh than the standard PRR route? Thanks for your thoughts. Doug Nelson "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 13:10:52 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: N6A/N6B Origins documented! Eureaka, You've hit the source of my speculation. I tried to get to the Archieves several times but have frustrated. On my last attempt I ended up in a ICU in Ephreta, Pa., with toxic shock from pneunomia. I congratulate you, Jack. This is earth shaking news for cabin car fanatatics like me. Tom Vondruska P.S. Please reply to prrlineswest@yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:35:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap Gregg wrote that the PRR-LV handoff in the 1940s-50s was well documented by Don Ball; but where did this occur? At Hunter? IBefore the wires went up, the handoff would of course have been at Manhattan Transfer. But later? And I assume in later years that the LV trains did stop at Pennsylvania Station Newark (Market Street), but when did this begin, does anyone know? At one time (e.g. 1930) the LV had its own station at Meeker Street (west of the junction at Hunter, I think, on its own line). As for the engine change at Manhattan Transfer, the 1930 public timetables seem to allow six minutes "dwell" time at Manhattan Transfer, with an overall running time New York to Newark of 23-24 minutes. (Many long distance trains did not even stop in Newark at that time; passengers were told to take the H&M from the old Park Place station, and catch their train at the Transfer.) I wonder if rules may have been different in that era; did they have to do a full brake test, for instance, after changing engines? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Conan Evans" Subject: RE: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:31:51 -0500 Pondering the question of swapping power, Does anyone know how passenger trains were handled in Baltimore... more precisely, if a passenger came down the NC, it was steam/diesel and I am guessing it pulled into Pennsylvania Station heading now North (East). Would the power be swapped with electric to continue south to DC? Thus, maybe a G would be sitting in a hole and move onto the "rear" of the train after it came off the NC and the original power cut off and proceed over to the Orangeville engine terminal? Conan Evans Bristow, VA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 13:34:40 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: [PRR] new e-mail for Tom V. To all, As of today my e-mail address is prrlineswest@yahoo.com Tom Vondruska ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 13:27:43 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap There was also a swap of sorts for the Delmarva trains at or near Wilmington. I am guessing that >From old PTTs, it seems that all trains originated at Wilmington, but some of the cars for the Delmarva trains went north to or came south from Philadelphia and NYC. My question is how did these cars get from the mainline in Philly to Wilmington and thence added to the Delmarva service. Jim McDaniel, near Nassawadox here in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 13:45:49 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Aerotrain Pittsburgh Photo Mystery? Greetings to Doug and the List: The layover time at Pittsburgh for Trains 16/17, the "Pennsy Aerotrain," was so brief that there wasn't time to wye the train at any place other than Monon tower, at the west end of the Panhandle bridge. That's only a mile west of the Pittbsurgh passenger station. PRR timetables dated Feb. 26, and March 1, 1956, both show a mere 35 minutes between arrival of the westbound train (3:25pm) and departure of the eastbound (4 pm). Another timetable dated April 29, 1956, at the change to Daylight time showed the same margin, arriving at 2:25 pm and departing at 3 pm. There wouldn't have been enough time to discharge passengers, back out to CM (5.3 miles away), turn there and back in to Pittsburgh, board passengers and be ready for departure. Figure that just the backup move, at 20 mph, would consume 30 minutes exclusive of the time on the wye at CM, stopping and waiting for signals, etc. As it was, I'll bet that the coach cleaners boarded and did their job while the train was wyed at Monon. Hope this helps, Dan Cupper Douglas Nelson wrote: > > I have a photo from September 1956 of the GM Aerotrain northbound on the > eastern leg of the wye approaching the Panhandle Bridge about to enter > Pittsburgh. Since the Aerotrain ran between Pittsburgh and New York, what > was it doing on the Panhandle Bridge? Was it using the wye to turn the > train for its return trip, or did it use a different route through > Pittsburgh than the standard PRR route? > > Thanks for your thoughts. > > Doug Nelson > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:57:14 -0500 Conan:- It's been a l-o-n-g time, but as I recall, the Washington sections of the Chicago and St. Louis trains were very short and were added to the rear of a NY-Wash train at Baltimore. The reverse took place westbound. I did not pay that much attention, though, as I always got on or off at Baltimore! (This was 1965-1967) Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Conan Evans" To: "TALK PRR-" Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 1:31 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap > Pondering the question of swapping power, Does anyone know how passenger > trains were handled in Baltimore... more precisely, if a passenger came down > the NC, it was steam/diesel and I am guessing it pulled into Pennsylvania > Station heading now North (East). Would the power be swapped with electric > to continue south to DC? Thus, maybe a G would be sitting in a hole and > move onto the "rear" of the train after it came off the NC and the original > power cut off and proceed over to the Orangeville engine terminal? > > Conan Evans > Bristow, VA > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 14:02:43 -0500 According to Don Ball, it was at NK tower, located at Waverly Avenue in Newark, NJ Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 1:35 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap > Gregg wrote that the PRR-LV handoff in the 1940s-50s was well > documented by Don Ball; but where did this occur? At Hunter? > > IBefore the wires went up, the handoff would of course have been at > Manhattan Transfer. But later? And I assume in later years that > the LV trains did stop at Pennsylvania Station Newark (Market > Street), but when did this begin, does anyone know? At one time > (e.g. 1930) the LV had its own station at Meeker Street (west of > the junction at Hunter, I think, on its own line). > > As for the engine change at Manhattan Transfer, the 1930 public > timetables seem to allow six minutes "dwell" time at Manhattan > Transfer, with an overall running time New York to Newark of 23-24 > minutes. (Many long distance trains did not even stop in Newark > at that time; passengers were told to take the H&M from the old > Park Place station, and catch their train at the Transfer.) > > I wonder if rules may have been different in that era; did they have > to do a full brake test, for instance, after changing engines? > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 11:03:32 -0800 From: "John Cooper" Yes, the change occurred at Hunter. The motors coming off South Amboy trains at Union often went to Hunter for their next assignment. John > ---------- > From: bobsin@nac.net[SMTP:bobsin@nac.net] > Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 10:35 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap > > Gregg wrote that the PRR-LV handoff in the 1940s-50s was well > documented by Don Ball; but where did this occur? At Hunter? > > IBefore the wires went up, the handoff would of course have been at > Manhattan Transfer. But later? And I assume in later years that > the LV trains did stop at Pennsylvania Station Newark (Market > Street), but when did this begin, does anyone know? At one time > (e.g. 1930) the LV had its own station at Meeker Street (west of > the junction at Hunter, I think, on its own line). > > As for the engine change at Manhattan Transfer, the 1930 public > timetables seem to allow six minutes "dwell" time at Manhattan > Transfer, with an overall running time New York to Newark of 23-24 > minutes. (Many long distance trains did not even stop in Newark > at that time; passengers were told to take the H&M from the old > Park Place station, and catch their train at the Transfer.) > > I wonder if rules may have been different in that era; did they have > to do a full brake test, for instance, after changing engines? > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Conan Evans" Subject: RE: [PRR] Aerotrain Pittsburgh Photo Mystery? Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 14:02:43 -0500 I can't site the exact source, but somewhere it is said that the Aerotrain had really krappy friction brakes (no dynamics) and that the train set, often in Pittsburgh, needed all its brake shoes replaced between runs. I guess what I am saying is that even if the Timetable shows a rapid turn-around, would necessary maintenance prevent the train from reliably maintaining the schedule Dan is quoting? If I find the quote referring to the Aerotrain's brake deficiencies, I'll pass it on. Conan Evans -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PBehalf Of Dan Cupper Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 1:46 PM To: Douglas Nelson Cc: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PRR-Talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Aerotrain Pittsburgh Photo Mystery? Greetings to Doug and the List: The layover time at Pittsburgh for Trains 16/17, the "Pennsy Aerotrain," was so brief that there wasn't time to wye the train at any place other than Monon tower, at the west end of the Panhandle bridge. That's only a mile west of the Pittbsurgh passenger station. PRR timetables dated Feb. 26, and March 1, 1956, both show a mere 35 minutes between arrival of the westbound train (3:25pm) and departure of the eastbound (4 pm). Another timetable dated April 29, 1956, at the change to Daylight time showed the same margin, arriving at 2:25 pm and departing at 3 pm. There wouldn't have been enough time to discharge passengers, back out to CM (5.3 miles away), turn there and back in to Pittsburgh, board passengers and be ready for departure. Figure that just the backup move, at 20 mph, would consume 30 minutes exclusive of the time on the wye at CM, stopping and waiting for signals, etc. As it was, I'll bet that the coach cleaners boarded and did their job while the train was wyed at Monon. Hope this helps, Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Conan Evans" Subject: RE: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 14:04:28 -0500 So the swap was handled by the station switcher? -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gregg Mahlkov Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 1:57 PM To: Conan Evans; TALK PRR- Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap Conan:- It's been a l-o-n-g time, but as I recall, the Washington sections of the Chicago and St. Louis trains were very short and were added to the rear of a NY-Wash train at Baltimore. The reverse took place westbound. I did not pay that much attention, though, as I always got on or off at Baltimore! (This was 1965-1967) Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Conan Evans" To: "TALK PRR-" Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 1:31 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap > Pondering the question of swapping power, Does anyone know how passenger > trains were handled in Baltimore... more precisely, if a passenger came down > the NC, it was steam/diesel and I am guessing it pulled into Pennsylvania > Station heading now North (East). Would the power be swapped with electric > to continue south to DC? Thus, maybe a G would be sitting in a hole and > move onto the "rear" of the train after it came off the NC and the original > power cut off and proceed over to the Orangeville engine terminal? > > Conan Evans > Bristow, VA > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 14:06:41 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap Greetings to Gregg, Conan and the List: A veteran conductor once told me that for many trains he worked, your speculation is exactly how it happened. On westbound trains, if he took more than 3 minutes at Baltimore to make the swap, on arrival in Harrisburg he'd be standing on the carpet in front of the division superintendent explaining why. Dan Cupper --------------------------------- > From: "Conan Evans" > > if a passenger came > down > > the NC, it was steam/diesel and I am guessing it pulled into Pennsylvania > > Station heading now North (East). Would the power be swapped with > electric > > to continue south to DC? Thus, maybe a G would be sitting in a hole and > > move onto the "rear" of the train after it came off the NC and the > original > > power cut off and proceed over to the Orangeville engine terminal? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 14:13:42 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap From: Jerry Britton On 11/9/01 1:57 PM, Gregg Mahlkov (mahlkov@gtcom.net) wrote: > It's been a l-o-n-g time, but as I recall, the Washington sections of the > Chicago and St. Louis trains were very short and were added to the rear of a > NY-Wash train at Baltimore. The reverse took place westbound. I did not pay > that much attention, though, as I always got on or off at Baltimore! (This > was 1965-1967) > Westbound passenger trains from Washington -- for most of history -- ran northeast to Baltimore, then north on the Northern Central Branch through York to Harrisburg. At Harrisburg some were merged into trains from New York/Philadelphia. Others continued on their own merit westward, like the Liberty Limited which was essentially a Broadway Limited from the south. Still others were totally cut up with parts going to many westward trains. In 1954, for instance, at 10:05 p.m. The Northern Express arrived from Washtington. Before continuing to Williamsport at 10:50 p.m., it sent 1 car and received 3 from #1 The Pennsylvania Limited, sent 1 car to #3 The Penn Texas, sent 4 cars to #39 The Clevelander/Akronite, sent 1 car to #71 The Admiral, and received 3 cars from #615. That's a lot of switching moves in 45 minutes...now you know one of the reasons why I am modeling Harrisburg! At some point much of the westward passenger traffic was routed away from the Northern Central. Hurricane Agnes in 1972 forced it as the branch was closed, but the PRR obviously moved at least "some" of it to The Port Road prior, bypassing York. The video "Under The Catenary" from Penn Valley Pictures has considerable footage of these westbounds coming off the Royalton Branch (at ROY/Middletown, Pa.) onto the "main line" just east of Harrisburg. To get to the Royalton Branch they would have had to have left the NEC at Perryville and come up The Port Road through Columbia. Boy, that must have been a beautiful trip!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 14:31:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: [PRR] Aerotrain Pittsburgh Photo Mystery? Conan, Maybe you remember a note that I posted on the list last year or so. I know a mechanic who worked at the 28th st yards during that time period and he remembers the Aerotrain being very hard on brake shoes. They needed constant changing. If the schedule only permitted a 25 or so minute layover and most of that time was gobbled up turning the train, I am unsure of what free time the brakes shoes could be changed. Maybe it was a very simple task? I will have to find out more if the mechanic I know ever did the changing of the shoes himself....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 14:49:14 -0500 As far as I can recall, yes, the one that hid out under the Post Office all day! Gregg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Conan Evans" To: "TALK PRR-" Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 2:04 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap > So the swap was handled by the station switcher? > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gregg > Mahlkov > Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 1:57 PM > To: Conan Evans; TALK PRR- > Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap > > > Conan:- > > It's been a l-o-n-g time, but as I recall, the Washington sections of the > Chicago and St. Louis trains were very short and were added to the rear of a > NY-Wash train at Baltimore. The reverse took place westbound. I did not pay > that much attention, though, as I always got on or off at Baltimore! (This > was 1965-1967) > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Conan Evans" > To: "TALK PRR-" > Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 1:31 PM > Subject: RE: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap > > > > Pondering the question of swapping power, Does anyone know how passenger > > trains were handled in Baltimore... more precisely, if a passenger came > down > > the NC, it was steam/diesel and I am guessing it pulled into Pennsylvania > > Station heading now North (East). Would the power be swapped with > electric > > to continue south to DC? Thus, maybe a G would be sitting in a hole and > > move onto the "rear" of the train after it came off the NC and the > original > > power cut off and proceed over to the Orangeville engine terminal? > > > > Conan Evans > > Bristow, VA > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 16:30:34 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Aerotrain Pittsburgh Photo Mystery? In a message dated 11/9/01 2:16:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, cevans@onlinesecurities.net writes: << If I find the quote referring to the Aerotrain's brake deficiencies, I'll pass it on. I've seen the same reference - but assumed read it as a brake change for each round trip - what was the "turn around" on the east end? RR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 17:05:30 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Even More New Info on LEMO From: Jerry Britton Still trying to determine when the second track of the Cumberland Valley Branch was torn out at LEMO... I have a blueprint. It has no date, nor does it indicate what department it belonged to. I suspect it is a blueprint copy from a book of interlocking diagrams. It is 17" by 32". It has several "blocked" sections on it, each containing signal aspects. The blocks are: * ROCKVILLE, west end of Enola, through BANKS * LEMO * CLY * LAKE / MANOR / COLA The danger here, with no attribution or date, is whether or not the many blocks of data are concurrent with each other. If they are, there are some clues... The COLA portion shows the lead onto the bridge over the river. The bridge was removed in 1961ish. Therefore the chart is before that. The ROCKVILLE part shows Track 3 has been removed. This happened in 1956 and I have numerous sources showing Track 3 in service through the end of 1954 and well into 1955. Therefore the chart is after 1955. At LEMO the Cumberland Valley still has two tracks. If all portions of the overall blueprint are concurrent, then I have "proof" so-to-say of the second track still existing in 1954. Given the four areas on this plan, anyone know of elements of portions that we can look for within them to further refine the date of this document? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 14:33:09 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Mantua has shut down Hello lists, According to this link, Mantua stopped production in October. The link holds some hope that Mantua will be reincarnated. http://www.railstop.com/ If I understood the web page correctly, it's the home page for the reincarnation of Ulrich. It has a nice early history of Bowser (from whose site I found the link). Mantua steamers have been kitbashing fodder for many of my projects. I've found their older engines, repowered with the Sagami retrofit kit or the Alliance Locomotive repower kits run superbly. Personally, I wish Mantua had not moved production to China or geared itself towards the toy end of the spectrum, but many companies have had to periodically reinvent themselves to survive. Meanwhile, I will treasure my Pacifics, Atlantic, and Camelbacks. Doug __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 20:02:07 -0500 From: Joe Witcofsky Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap Most if not all "Cannackerland" passenger trains originated in Philly,at Broad St., then later 30th St. Since "p" Co. policy was use to motors under the wire, most likely the trains were electric powered. Steam or diesel power came out of Landlith and the swap was made at the Meat House Siding just South of the Station. (Pullman Sdg North of the station on the return trip). Through cars from NYP were probably swapped to the Delmarva trains at Phila. although it could have been at Wilmington, as yard crews (West Yard Shifter) were on 'round the clock. Joe W. ----- Original Message ----- From: "James L. McDaniel" To: Cc: Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 1:27 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Electric <-> Steam swap > There was also a swap of sorts for the Delmarva trains at or near > Wilmington. I am guessing that > > From old PTTs, it seems that all trains originated at Wilmington, but > some of the cars for the Delmarva trains went north to or came south > from Philadelphia and NYC. > > My question is how did these cars get from the mainline in Philly to > Wilmington and thence added to the Delmarva service. > > > Jim McDaniel, near Nassawadox here in Delmarva > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 08:05:49 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] J-1 Artwork Hi All, I was wondering if anyone has PRR lettering arrangement drawings for the J-1 and J-1a. This would be for the entire tender, cab and pilot lettering. Any help would be most appreciated. You will be reimbursed for your efforts. Please reply to billlane@snip.net Thanks Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] J-1 Artwork Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 08:05:49 -0500 Hi All, I was wondering if anyone has PRR lettering arrangement drawings for the J-1 and J-1a. This would be for the entire tender, cab and pilot lettering. Any help would be most appreciated. You will be reimbursed for your efforts. Please reply to billlane@snip.net Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 10:54:16 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] J-1 part 2 Hi Again, What class tenders would have been used on the J-1 and J-1a? Please reply to billlane@snip.net Thank You Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] J-1 part 2 Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 10:54:16 -0500 Hi Again, What class tenders would have been used on the J-1 and J-1a? Please reply to billlane@snip.net Thank You Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 14:02:51 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] J-1 part 2 On Sat, 10 Nov 2001, Bill Lane wrote: > What class tenders would have been used on the J-1 and J-1a? Please reply to > billlane@snip.net Bill, The J-1 and J-1a had class 180F84 tenders Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson PRR/ Penn Central Art) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 19:27:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] E44s and Coal Trains in Hudson Tunnels. Hello Gang, Back in the early to mid 1960s, the PRR was testing E44 locomotives pulling coal trains through the tunnels underneath the Hudson River. Now here's where I get lost. Does any one know where those test trains were going? Maybe to somewhere out on Long Island, or maybe crossing Hell's Gate via the New Haven? I can't find any info on this operation anywhere. Some say the trains were "looped" at Sunnyside and sent back through the tunnels. Any info is appreciated. Thanks, Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 19:29:26 -0500 From: "H.&S." Subject: [PRR] Engine swap at Baltimore Hello all... Both Jerry and Greg are right....The PRR and later Penn Central both either tacked on Northern Central trains to NEC trains or ran a separate engine and train to and from Washington. I once had a chance to ride one of the last NC trains before Amtrak and Agnes,but did'nt take it. I wish now that i had. It was a single black PC E-8 unit and one coach. Dad had taken us to Penn station that day to ride a train. We had to decide between the NC train or a GG-1 hauled NY-Washington train. The NC train did'nt look all that appealing to me and i opted for the GG-1. At the time no one had any idea what would happen in the future. This was sometime in April of 1970 or 71. I did however later ride the train that ran up the NEC to the Port Road. Both the lone E-8 and coach version and the later GG-1 and multiple car version. The so called infamous "National Limited". This train was later switched to the B&O's former "Capitol Limited" Washington-Chicago route. The E-8 hauled train mostly ran in the dark and got us to Harrisburg very late after the last Philly local had left which then had us taking a Greyhound bus back to Baltimore. The later GG-1 hauled train used mostly former PRR cars that did'nt get much use. One car that has stuck in my mind was one of the "Congressional" parlor cars with the single drawing room.(29-1) When we rode this train no one was using the drawing room and so we got to use it. The train was at least 5 cars and may have been as many as 8 cars long. I remember well the train coming off the NEC at Perryville and watching the GG-1 going thru the tight wye curve near the station. Dad mentioned about how Enginemen did'nt like not having a Fireman on these runs as when you came around the wye curve at Perryville it was hard to see around the curve because of the GG-1s long nose. Dad said that one time someone had started to cross the tracks as the train was approaching and that if they had'nt had a student Fireman on that run they would have never had seen the guy. They were able to get the train stopped before they got there. It had been a odd feeling coming off the bridge crossing over the NEC and running northbound on the southbound NEC main before we got to the Port road wye. During this time the Port road was single track,but you could tell it had been double tracked at one time. It was late in the afternoon during the Fall. As we proceded up the Port road the sun was starting to set and fog was beginning to set in. It gave a slightly eerie quality to the whole ride. On one side of the train you had the river. On the other the high cliffs. There wer'nt too many houses and such to see except near Perryville and Safe Harbor. The tunnel near the state line was a surprise as i was'nt expecting it. South of Steelton more house started to appear and a couple of junk yards. It kinda reminded me of the "City of New Orleans" song. The line coming in from Philly could be seen on the right as the catenary poles got closer and closer until the tracks merged. There were less curves as we approached Harrisburg. It was a very nice ride and there was a lot to look at. Until that ride i had'nt noticed all the dams,bridges, power plants and abandoned stuff all along the river. This train got us to Harrisburg early enough so where we could catch a Harrisburg-Philly local (which was my first time on the "Main Line",but by then it was too dark to see anything) and then a connecting train at 30th. st. for the ride back home to Baltimore. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] E44s and Coal Trains in Hudson Tunnels. Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 02:47:38 +0000 The singular coal train (there was only ONE such attempt) was handed over at NH RS-3's at HAROLD interlocking. As soon as the train started to pull out several coupelers gave out due to all the stress suffered in the tunnel pull. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] E44s and Coal Trains in Hudson Tunnels. Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 22:27:46 -0500 Dave and list:- That's a new one on me. I do recall that there was a strike in New York Harbor, shutting down the carfloat operations, so PRR moved some trainloads of cement to Long Island (this was the era of rapid growth of suburbia on LI). The City of NY looked with extreme displeasure at this and it was not repeated. This was told to me by Bill Hoagland, who was Sales Manager-Southwestern States, PRR. He had previously been Manager-Freight Sales & Service in New York City. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Hopson PRR/ Penn Central Art" To: ; Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 7:27 PM Subject: [PRR] E44s and Coal Trains in Hudson Tunnels. > Hello Gang, > > Back in the early to mid 1960s, the PRR was testing E44 > locomotives pulling coal trains through the tunnels underneath the > Hudson River. > Now here's where I get lost. Does any one know where those test > trains were going? Maybe to somewhere out on Long Island, or maybe > crossing Hell's Gate via the New Haven? > I can't find any info on this operation anywhere. Some say the > trains were "looped" > at Sunnyside and sent back through the tunnels. > Any info is appreciated. Thanks, > > Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 15:44:27 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Cedco PRR Calendar Hi All, I have the Cedco PRR calendar in my cube at work. I stare at in when I am bored which is most of the day. This month's selection is the parade of GG1s lined up for the Army-Navy game. It is one of the few photos or slides I have seen that truly represent the DGLE color of the GG1. It is almost black in the shaded areas with what is clearly very dark green in the bright sun highlighted areas. Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95 Refill any ink cartridge for less! Includes black and color ink. http://us.click.yahoo.com/XwUZwC/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Cedco PRR Calendar Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 15:44:27 -0500 Hi All, I have the Cedco PRR calendar in my cube at work. I stare at in when I am bored which is most of the day. This month's selection is the parade of GG1s lined up for the Army-Navy game. It is one of the few photos or slides I have seen that truly represent the DGLE color of the GG1. It is almost black in the shaded areas with what is clearly very dark green in the bright sun highlighted areas. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy Williamson Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:47:57 -0600 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Updates To My Website Thanks to the generosity of Al Buchan, I have started my next epic on the PRR Through Freight Schedules website. The newest addition is Local Arranged Freight Train Service, effective 1958. This is a region by region breakdown on all local freight service. The first region completed is the New York Region. Stop by and take a look: http://www.randsrailstuff.net/Pennsylvania%20Railroad%20Freight%20Schedules/HOME.htm Will be working my way east to west across the system. Regards, Randy ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95 Refill any ink cartridge for less! Includes black and color ink. http://us.click.yahoo.com/bAmslD/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 18:47:57 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Updates To My Website Thanks to the generosity of Al Buchan, I have started my next epic on the PRR Through Freight Schedules website. The newest addition is Local Arranged Freight Train Service, effective 1958. This is a region by region breakdown on all local freight service. The first region completed is the New York Region. Stop by and take a look: http://www.randsrailstuff.net/Pennsylvania%20Railroad%20Freight%20Schedules/HOME.htm Will be working my way east to west across the system. Regards, Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 19:12:46 -0600 From: Jeff and Sandy Olsenholler Subject: [PRR] E44s and Coal Trains in Hudson Tunnels. > > Back in the early to mid 1960s, the PRR was testing E44 > > locomotives pulling coal trains through the tunnels underneath the > > Hudson River. > > Now here's where I get lost. Does any one know where those test > > trains were going? Maybe to somewhere out on Long Island, or maybe What I recall Bill Holler saying was that they were going out to the power plant on Long Island. We owe him a call anyway, and if he's up for recollection, I'll get any details I can from him. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 22:28:44 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Request for info - "Return to" marks on covered hoppers Hi Gize, Want to solicit your help for an upcoming Keystone article. We're building a listing of "return to" markings that appeared on PRR covered hoppers. What we have so far is some observed markings from photos, and some known assignment points remembered by ex-sales reps: City State Line Stencil Commodity Loading customer Bellefonte PA Bald Eagle Br. Return Empty/to Bellefonte PA/PRR crushed limestone multiple stone companies Buffalo NY Buffalo Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Buffalo NY Flour Detroit MI Toledo Br. Return Empty/to PRR/Detroit MI E. Fultonham OH Zanesville Br. Return when/empty to PRR/E. Fultonham Ohio Gibsonburg Oh Dolomite Glassboro NJ PRSL Glass sand Grand Forks ND Flour North Dakota Mill & Elevator Kiskeminetas Jct PA Conemaugh Div Return when/empty to PRR/Kiskeminetas/Junction PA Lake City MN MILW Flour Tennant & Hoyt Milling (Golden Loaf) Mapleton PA Middle Division Return when/empty to PRR/Mapleton PA Glass sand Pennsylvania Glass Sand Martins Creek VA ? Return when/empty to PRR/Martins Creek/VA McVeytown PA Middle Division Glass sand Pennsylvania Glass Sand Millville NJ PRSL When empty return to/PRSL Millville/NJ Glass sand Minneapolis MN Flour International Milling Mt. Vernon OH Akron Br. Philadelphia PA PT Div. Return when empty to/PRR North Stanley Yard/Philad Portage WI MILW Return when empty/to CMStP&P R.R./Portage Wisc Speeds IN Louisville Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Speeds Ind Cement Louisville Cement Company Toledo OH Toledo Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Toledo Ohio/district Winona MN Flour Bay State Milling Can anyone add to this data? If from photos, let me know where the photo can be found in the future, and what the car number is. Thanks, Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 22:28:44 EST Subject: [PRR] Request for info - "Return to" marks on covered hoppers Hi Gize, Want to solicit your help for an upcoming Keystone article. We're building a listing of "return to" markings that appeared on PRR covered hoppers. What we have so far is some observed markings from photos, and some known assignment points remembered by ex-sales reps: City State Line Stencil Commodity Loading customer Bellefonte PA Bald Eagle Br. Return Empty/to Bellefonte PA/PRR crushed limestone multiple stone companies Buffalo NY Buffalo Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Buffalo NY Flour Detroit MI Toledo Br. Return Empty/to PRR/Detroit MI E. Fultonham OH Zanesville Br. Return when/empty to PRR/E. Fultonham Ohio Gibsonburg Oh Dolomite Glassboro NJ PRSL Glass sand Grand Forks ND Flour North Dakota Mill & Elevator Kiskeminetas Jct PA Conemaugh Div Return when/empty to PRR/Kiskeminetas/Junction PA Lake City MN MILW Flour Tennant & Hoyt Milling (Golden Loaf) Mapleton PA Middle Division Return when/empty to PRR/Mapleton PA Glass sand Pennsylvania Glass Sand Martins Creek VA ? Return when/empty to PRR/Martins Creek/VA McVeytown PA Middle Division Glass sand Pennsylvania Glass Sand Millville NJ PRSL When empty return to/PRSL Millville/NJ Glass sand Minneapolis MN Flour International Milling Mt. Vernon OH Akron Br. Philadelphia PA PT Div. Return when empty to/PRR North Stanley Yard/Philad Portage WI MILW Return when empty/to CMStP&P R.R./Portage Wisc Speeds IN Louisville Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Speeds Ind Cement Louisville Cement Company Toledo OH Toledo Br. Return when/empty to PRR/Toledo Ohio/district Winona MN Flour Bay State Milling Can anyone add to this data? If from photos, let me know where the photo can be found in the future, and what the car number is. Thanks, Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 22:13:28 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Request for info - "Return to" marks on covered hoppers At 10:28 PM 11/11/2001 -0500, RickTipton@aol.com wrote >Mt. Vernon OH Akron Br. >At Howard the Howard Branch leaves the Akron Branch and runs to Millwood, Oh. There was a Millwood Sand Co. there that could have used the covered >hoppers. Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy Williamson Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 21:59:38 -0600 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PennsyWest] Request for info - "Return to" marks on At 10:28 PM 11/11/2001 -0500, RickTipton@aol.com wrote >Mt. Vernon OH Akron Br. >At Howard the Howard Branch leaves the Akron Branch and runs to Millwood, >Oh. There was a Millwood Sand Co. there that could have used the covered >hoppers. Randy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95 Refill any ink cartridge for less! Includes black and color ink. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Vv.L9D/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 08:45:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR] 5th Annual Modeling Needs Survey! -- From: Jerry Britton Time for the 5th Annual "Keystone Crossings/PRR-Talk" Modeling Needs Survey! Please participate by listing up to three PRR products that you would like to see produced in each of the categories listed. Only the first three in each category will be considered; others will be discarded. Please try to be specific with the PRR class. If you are looking for mass quantities, indicate that as well. Please DO NOT include models of classes that have already been announced for production. Respond by replying to this message, but change the recipient to me at "jerry@pennsyrr.com" (not to the list) and send by Monday, November 19. When submitting, please APPEND the subject line with your scale. I will summarize the results to the list as well as to several dozen model manufacturers. Every year some of our highest requests show up within the next 24 months (e.g. HO scale Gla's and N scale H-21a's). Thank you! YOUR SCALE: STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: STRUCTURES DESIRED: OTHER DESIRED: ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 10:33:20 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] 5th Annual Modeling Needs Survey! -- N From: Jerry Britton On 11/12/01 8:45 AM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > YOUR SCALE: N > STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: I-1 B6sb L-1 > ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: B-1 P-5 > DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: BP60/BH50 BP20 EF15 / EH15 (EMD F3) > FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: F30 GLa K8 > NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: N8 N6 > PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: R50b 1948 Broadway Limited set 1948 Liberty Limited set > STRUCTURES DESIRED: MG tower VIEW tower HARRIS tower > OTHER DESIRED: 26' or 28' TrucTrain trailers from 1954 Catenary bridges (Alkem?) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 10:34:44 -0500 Subject: OOOPS!!! Re: [PRR] 5th Annual Modeling Needs Survey! -- N From: Jerry Britton Leave it to the damned listmaster to post to the list when directed not to!!! Sorry all. On 11/12/01 10:33 AM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > On 11/12/01 8:45 AM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > >> YOUR SCALE: N > >> STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Dining Car recipes Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 11:26:19 -0500 Hi all, I picked up an original PRR manual on Ebay a while ago. I'm working on scanning it for my website as a background task (It's probably about 1/2 scanned) It's an earlier edition than the one that the RR Museum of Pa reproduced. I haven't compared the recipies to see how many are the same. Once I get some borrowed material back to its owner, I'll finish this up... Some yummy sounding (and probably very fattening!) recipies! Rob http://prr.railfan.net > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of James > Stob > Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 7:35 AM > To: v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net > Cc: Lewis J. Matt PhD; PRR-Talk LIST; Ted Andrews > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car recipes > > > I visited the museums and their stores this past summer looking > for such a book. > They didn't have one, nor did they seem to know about one. > However, I have seen > them offered on eBay, as well as the real, original manuals from > the PRR. I, too, > want one badly, but they just don't seem to come up on eBay very > often. This > time, when they come up, I'll be on them! However, if anyone knows of an > available PRR manual or a cookbook from the museums, give me a shout! > > Best regards, > > Jim Stob > > Bennett Levin wrote: > > > I seem to recall that the Friends of the RRMPA publish a complete book > > of recipies. > > > > Bennett > > > > "Lewis J. Matt PhD" wrote: > > > > > > Ted Andrews said: > > > > Interesting thread! I was wondering when was the golden age of food > > > service > > > > on the PRR? > > > > > > Was there every a book that was published (for the masses) of these > > > recipes? > > > > > > Dear Ted and list: > > > > > > There have been many good railroad cookbooks published over > the years, but I > > > don't have one devoted exclusively to PRR in my collection. James > > > Porterfield wrote "Dining by Rail", copywrite. 1993, pub. by > St. Martin's > > > Griffin, NY. This noteworthy tome has 7 pages of authentic > PRR delicacies > > > to titillate your appetite, particularly the "veal cutlets in paprika > > > sauce", which is excellent and one of my favorites. Mr. > Porterfield has an > > > excellent detailed history of dining cars at the beginning of > his book, > > > which is very scholarly and descriptive. He makes a very > good case for > > > defining the term "golden age" of dining cars. > > > > > > I got my copy, autographed by the author, at the train show > in Timonium two > > > years ago. The author was there with his books and appeared > to be doing a > > > landmark business. I've made many of the recipes in the book > in the ensuing > > > years and thoroughly enjoyed the results. Well, maybe not > the fat ass I > > > got, but the taste was excellent. (Besides building model > passenger trains, > > > cooking is my OTHER hobby) > > > > > > Lew Matt > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 11:49:44 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Patriotic Billboards along Amtrak Mainline From: Jerry Britton The following is from the RAILROAD.NET FORUM... -------------------(snip)----------------------- Patriotic Billboards along Amtrak Mainline Posted by Roger Morse (emd710g3b@aol.com) on Sun, Nov 11, 01 at 18:21 While traveling back to Washington this afternoon passing through Philadelphia I'm always on the lookout when we pass Juniata Terminal around Frankfort Junction, you never know when your going to get lucky and see some of their stuff like the E-8's outside. Today blew me away, they changed the old billboards that had the GG-1 and the passenger car to new ones that have the PRR wartime calendar art on them. The first one said "Serving the Nation" with Uncle Sam over the steam engine and the second one "Forward All Along the Line" with the army tanks over the steam engine. What a display, but the freaky part is when I got home to DC, my issue of Classic Trains was waiting with the same PRR artwork on the cover. Its a shame it took the tragedy of September 11th to bring these most enduring wartime images to prominence again, but you just have to see it on a billboard to appreciate it. Kudos to the Juniata Terminal Company for their patriotism, and may the railroads of America be up to the task of performing their part in the defense of our great country in 2001 as they were during the other conflicts in our nations history. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 15:30:19 -0500 From: James Stob Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car recipes Thanks Rob, I'll certainly look forward to it. Best Regards, Jim Stob Rob Schoenberg wrote: > Hi all, > > I picked up an original PRR manual on Ebay a while ago. I'm working on > scanning it for my website as a background task (It's probably about 1/2 > scanned) It's an earlier edition than the one that the RR Museum of Pa > reproduced. I haven't compared the recipies to see how many are the same. > Once I get some borrowed material back to its owner, I'll finish this up... > Some yummy sounding (and probably very fattening!) recipies! > > Rob > http://prr.railfan.net > > -----Original Message----- > > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of James > > Stob > > Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 7:35 AM > > To: v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net > > Cc: Lewis J. Matt PhD; PRR-Talk LIST; Ted Andrews > > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Dining Car recipes > > > > > > I visited the museums and their stores this past summer looking > > for such a book. > > They didn't have one, nor did they seem to know about one. > > However, I have seen > > them offered on eBay, as well as the real, original manuals from > > the PRR. I, too, > > want one badly, but they just don't seem to come up on eBay very > > often. This > > time, when they come up, I'll be on them! However, if anyone knows of an > > available PRR manual or a cookbook from the museums, give me a shout! > > > > Best regards, > > > > Jim Stob > > > > Bennett Levin wrote: > > > > > I seem to recall that the Friends of the RRMPA publish a complete book > > > of recipies. > > > > > > Bennett > > > > > > "Lewis J. Matt PhD" wrote: > > > > > > > > Ted Andrews said: > > > > > Interesting thread! I was wondering when was the golden age of food > > > > service > > > > > on the PRR? > > > > > > > > Was there every a book that was published (for the masses) of these > > > > recipes? > > > > > > > > Dear Ted and list: > > > > > > > > There have been many good railroad cookbooks published over > > the years, but I > > > > don't have one devoted exclusively to PRR in my collection. James > > > > Porterfield wrote "Dining by Rail", copywrite. 1993, pub. by > > St. Martin's > > > > Griffin, NY. This noteworthy tome has 7 pages of authentic > > PRR delicacies > > > > to titillate your appetite, particularly the "veal cutlets in paprika > > > > sauce", which is excellent and one of my favorites. Mr. > > Porterfield has an > > > > excellent detailed history of dining cars at the beginning of > > his book, > > > > which is very scholarly and descriptive. He makes a very > > good case for > > > > defining the term "golden age" of dining cars. > > > > > > > > I got my copy, autographed by the author, at the train show > > in Timonium two > > > > years ago. The author was there with his books and appeared > > to be doing a > > > > landmark business. I've made many of the recipes in the book > > in the ensuing > > > > years and thoroughly enjoyed the results. Well, maybe not > > the fat ass I > > > > got, but the taste was excellent. (Besides building model > > passenger trains, > > > > cooking is my OTHER hobby) > > > > > > > > Lew Matt > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] PA Numberboards Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 19:30:04 -0500 Can anybody on this list tell me the approximate month/year that the Pennsy changed the as-delivered small flat number boards on the PA's to the angled bug-board style? Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 13:51:11 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Request for info - "Return to" marks on covered hoppers From: Jeffrey D Thomas Covered hoppers returned empty to E. Fultonham could have been for loading at two customers. At E. Fultonham there was a large cement plant that shipped cement in covered hoppers. About 10 miles west of E. Fultonham at Glass Rock, there was a plant that produced glass sand and shipped it out in covered hoppers. Jeff Thomas Denton,Texas ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 20:52:18 -0600 From: Jeff and Sandy Olsenholler Subject: Re: [PRR] E44s and Coal Trains in Hudson Tunnels. We called Bill Holler this evening to catch up on family matters and to get his recollection of the incident in the Hudson Tunnels. We left a message on their machine, and his widow returned our call a little more than an hour ago. Bill passed away this morning. I recall him saying that he was in Baltimore in the mid-sixties, so likely as not it's the same Bill Holler. His widow was touched that someone would remember him in such kind terms. > > Jeff;- > > Is this by any chance the same Bill Holler that was Asst. Superintendent at > Baltimore in 1965-66? He was a great operating man and one of the few that > was willing to talk to customers who had problems. If it is, tell him > "hello" from the "kid" who was the sales rep. that called on the Produce > Terminal, the Freight Forwarders, and the Fertilizer shippers for the PRR in > Baltimore in from Dec. 1964 to Jan. 1967. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff and Sandy Olsenholler" > To: "PRR-Talk" > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 8:12 PM > Subject: [PRR] E44s and Coal Trains in Hudson Tunnels. > > > > > Back in the early to mid 1960s, the PRR was testing E44 > > > > locomotives pulling coal trains through the tunnels underneath the > > > > Hudson River. > > > > Now here's where I get lost. Does any one know where those test > > > > trains were going? Maybe to somewhere out on Long Island, or maybe > > > > What I recall Bill Holler saying was that they were going out to the > > power plant on Long Island. We owe him a call anyway, and if he's up > > for recollection, I'll get any details I can from him. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 22:42:01 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] frieght car data OK Freight Car Gurus, Maybe you are a math teacher too. I know that there has to be a relationship between the Light Weight, Capacity, and Load Limit data. If you can only see 2 of these numbers clearly, is it possible through simple addition or subtraction to accurately get the missing number? Would there be 9 possibilities? Since I asked that question, you should be able to see that I am not a math major. If you want to give it a try with all the possibilities, please do so as follows so I can print it. These are just examples. Light Weight + Capacity = Light Weight - Load limit = This oughta fill this list up for days! Please reply to billlane@snip.net Thanks Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] frieght car data Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 22:42:01 -0500 OK Freight Car Gurus, Maybe you are a math teacher too. I know that there has to be a relationship between the Light Weight, Capacity, and Load Limit data. If you can only see 2 of these numbers clearly, is it possible through simple addition or subtraction to accurately get the missing number? Would there be 9 possibilities? Since I asked that question, you should be able to see that I am not a math major. If you want to give it a try with all the possibilities, please do so as follows so I can print it. These are just examples. Light Weight + Capacity = Light Weight - Load limit = This oughta fill this list up for days! Please reply to billlane@snip.net Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 23:56:23 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Arbitrary reference systems In a message dated 11/12/01 9:45:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: << Will be working my way east to west across the system. Regards, Randy >> Randy - you're breaking hearts all over Lines West. (only in fun, but I do eagerly await Pittsburgh-Dennison and beyond) You should know better than to tell the Lines West people they have to wait until everyone else is served -- they're very impatient with that "Lines East thinking". Of course, I understand arbitrary sequencing. When I was in school, "Tipton" came at the end of the alphabet, and I never had to wake up for the first half of the class. OTOH, by the time it was my turn to answer a question, it was a real bear. BTW I once asked a teacher at my kid's school why she always started at the beginning of the alphabet. She blinked at me and said, as if she'd never considered the matter, "I guess I could start at the end and work backwards". Clearly, was a new idea to her -- and this school was supposed to have sharp teachers. Now to apply this: Our buds on Lines East "know" the railroad started at their end -- it was built chronologically from there west, and the mileposts generally run westward. Of course, as a Little Miami Railroad fan, I know that those mileposts once ran eastward from Cincinnati, and were in place before the Pennsylvania Railroad Company was even chartered. As an ex-traffic guy, I also "know" that throughout the history of the railroad, more carloads started at the western end of a haul and ran east -- there was historically a lot more grain, farm products, groceries, and lumber headed east than there were cars of machinery and manufactured goods headed west. It's no wonder I look at the railroad west to east, even if others don't. My point is that reference systems, no matter how hallowed they are, are arbitrary. Wherever you live always looks like "the center of the world". But Einstein rightly pointed out that any reference system is arbitrary, and none is conceptually superior to any other. If that's true, how come we always start at the east end of the railroad and (if we don't get too tired) finish up in the west? (No, I don't have a good answer for this either. It's just tradition, established by the way the PRR's management habitually listed most things). Having pulled your chain (and that of 90% of my PRR-fan friends), let me thank you for all the hard work - it's a neat website feature and I'm enjoying spending time with it. I look forward to any and all additions. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95 Refill any ink cartridge for less! Includes black and color ink. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Vv.L9D/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 23:56:23 EST Subject: [PRR] Arbitrary reference systems In a message dated 11/12/01 9:45:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: << Will be working my way east to west across the system. Regards, Randy >> Randy - you're breaking hearts all over Lines West. (only in fun, but I do eagerly await Pittsburgh-Dennison and beyond) You should know better than to tell the Lines West people they have to wait until everyone else is served -- they're very impatient with that "Lines East thinking". Of course, I understand arbitrary sequencing. When I was in school, "Tipton" came at the end of the alphabet, and I never had to wake up for the first half of the class. OTOH, by the time it was my turn to answer a question, it was a real bear. BTW I once asked a teacher at my kid's school why she always started at the beginning of the alphabet. She blinked at me and said, as if she'd never considered the matter, "I guess I could start at the end and work backwards". Clearly, was a new idea to her -- and this school was supposed to have sharp teachers. Now to apply this: Our buds on Lines East "know" the railroad started at their end -- it was built chronologically from there west, and the mileposts generally run westward. Of course, as a Little Miami Railroad fan, I know that those mileposts once ran eastward from Cincinnati, and were in place before the Pennsylvania Railroad Company was even chartered. As an ex-traffic guy, I also "know" that throughout the history of the railroad, more carloads started at the western end of a haul and ran east -- there was historically a lot more grain, farm products, groceries, and lumber headed east than there were cars of machinery and manufactured goods headed west. It's no wonder I look at the railroad west to east, even if others don't. My point is that reference systems, no matter how hallowed they are, are arbitrary. Wherever you live always looks like "the center of the world". But Einstein rightly pointed out that any reference system is arbitrary, and none is conceptually superior to any other. If that's true, how come we always start at the east end of the railroad and (if we don't get too tired) finish up in the west? (No, I don't have a good answer for this either. It's just tradition, established by the way the PRR's management habitually listed most things). Having pulled your chain (and that of 90% of my PRR-fan friends), let me thank you for all the hard work - it's a neat website feature and I'm enjoying spending time with it. I look forward to any and all additions. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] frieght car data Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 23:47:50 -0600 Bill, CAPACITY is fixed. LT WT is the weight of the car when empty. LD LMT and LT WT have to add up to a fixed number. Here's a table: CAP LD LMT + LT WT 50 TON 100,000 136,000 70 TON 140,000 169,000 100 TON 200,000 210,000 So if an empty 70 ton car weighs 42,100 lb, the LD LMT would be 126,900. If that car is shopped and reweighed at 42,700 lb, the LD LMT would be changed to 126,300. It's late, so I hope my numbers are correct. But the basic idea is CAP is fixed, and LD LMT and LT WT add up to a fixed number. Andy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 08:18:51 EST From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Selling some Books Folks, I'm reducing my library a bit, and am selling off a number of books. There's a couple Pennsy books still onhand and quite a few others on passenger trains , specific railroads, western/early rail and some of those 'picture books' such as Don Ball Jr had put out years back. If anyone is interested, please contact me off-line and I'll send out a list later today. Thanks, and regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] frieght car data Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 09:38:26 -0500 Bill, Andy & list:- The (Nominal) Capacity is the truck capacity plus 10 percent, i.e. 50 ton trucks - 110000 lbs, 70 ton trucks - 154000 lbs., until you get to 100 ton trucks, where it is the truck capacity. The load limit is the maximum weight the bearing size can handle minus the tare or light weight of the car. It has been so long that I do not recall what that is for so-called 50 ton cars, but it was somewhere between 165000 and 170000 lbs. For 70 ton cars it is 220000 lbs. For 100 ton cars it WAS 263000 lbs. until recently, when it was raised to 286000 lbs. For a 70 ton boxcar for example that weighs 59200 empty, the Capacity is 154000 lbs., while the load limit is 160800 lbs. (220000-59200) Any questions? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Cich" To: "PRR Talk" Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 12:47 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] frieght car data > Bill, > > CAPACITY is fixed. LT WT is the weight of the car when empty. LD LMT and > LT WT have to add up to a fixed number. > > Here's a table: > CAP LD LMT + LT WT > 50 TON 100,000 136,000 > 70 TON 140,000 169,000 > 100 TON 200,000 210,000 > > So if an empty 70 ton car weighs 42,100 lb, the LD LMT would be 126,900. If > that car is shopped and reweighed at 42,700 lb, the LD LMT would be changed > to 126,300. > > It's late, so I hope my numbers are correct. But the basic idea is CAP is > fixed, and LD LMT and LT WT add up to a fixed number. > > > Andy > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: Re: [PRR] E44s and Coal Trains in Hudson Tunnels. Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 08:13:32 -0600 Wasn't the idea to see if they could run freight at night to new england by passing through the tunnels and Hell Gate bridge? I recall reading somehwere that because of the grading into and out of the tunnels that they pulled to many knuckles and the idea was abandoned. norm Bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff and Sandy Olsenholler" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 8:52 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] E44s and Coal Trains in Hudson Tunnels. > We called Bill Holler this evening to catch up on family matters and to > get his recollection of the incident in the Hudson Tunnels. We left a > message on their machine, and his widow returned our call a little more > than an hour ago. Bill passed away this morning. > > I recall him saying that he was in Baltimore in the mid-sixties, so > likely as not it's the same Bill Holler. His widow was touched that > someone would remember him in such kind terms. > > > > > > Jeff;- > > > > Is this by any chance the same Bill Holler that was Asst. Superintendent at > > Baltimore in 1965-66? He was a great operating man and one of the few that > > was willing to talk to customers who had problems. If it is, tell him > > "hello" from the "kid" who was the sales rep. that called on the Produce > > Terminal, the Freight Forwarders, and the Fertilizer shippers for the PRR in > > Baltimore in from Dec. 1964 to Jan. 1967. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jeff and Sandy Olsenholler" > > To: "PRR-Talk" > > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 8:12 PM > > Subject: [PRR] E44s and Coal Trains in Hudson Tunnels. > > > > > > > Back in the early to mid 1960s, the PRR was testing E44 > > > > > locomotives pulling coal trains through the tunnels underneath the > > > > > Hudson River. > > > > > Now here's where I get lost. Does any one know where those test > > > > > trains were going? Maybe to somewhere out on Long Island, or maybe > > > > > > What I recall Bill Holler saying was that they were going out to the > > > power plant on Long Island. We owe him a call anyway, and if he's up > > > for recollection, I'll get any details I can from him. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] E44s and Coal Trains in Hudson Tunnels. Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 11:09:59 -0500 List:- The City of New York was vehemently opposed to running freight trains through the Hudson River and East River tunnels as well, as the franchise to build them was granted for passenger operations only. There was fear of a derailment tying up commuter operations for days, or worse, which would have had a drastic effect on the city's commerce. Add all the problems together and the game wasn't worth the candle. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Norm Bell" To: "Jeff and Sandy Olsenholler" Cc: "Prr-Talk" Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 9:13 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] E44s and Coal Trains in Hudson Tunnels. > Wasn't the idea to see if they could run freight at night to new england by > passing through the tunnels and Hell Gate bridge? I recall reading > somehwere that because of the grading into and out of the tunnels that they > pulled to many knuckles and the idea was abandoned. norm Bell > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff and Sandy Olsenholler" > To: "PRR-Talk" > Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 8:52 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] E44s and Coal Trains in Hudson Tunnels. > > > > We called Bill Holler this evening to catch up on family matters and to > > get his recollection of the incident in the Hudson Tunnels. We left a > > message on their machine, and his widow returned our call a little more > > than an hour ago. Bill passed away this morning. > > > > I recall him saying that he was in Baltimore in the mid-sixties, so > > likely as not it's the same Bill Holler. His widow was touched that > > someone would remember him in such kind terms. > > > > > > > > > > Jeff;- > > > > > > Is this by any chance the same Bill Holler that was Asst. Superintendent > at > > > Baltimore in 1965-66? He was a great operating man and one of the few > that > > > was willing to talk to customers who had problems. If it is, tell him > > > "hello" from the "kid" who was the sales rep. that called on the Produce > > > Terminal, the Freight Forwarders, and the Fertilizer shippers for the > PRR in > > > Baltimore in from Dec. 1964 to Jan. 1967. > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Jeff and Sandy Olsenholler" > > > To: "PRR-Talk" > > > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 8:12 PM > > > Subject: [PRR] E44s and Coal Trains in Hudson Tunnels. > > > > > > > > > Back in the early to mid 1960s, the PRR was testing E44 > > > > > > locomotives pulling coal trains through the tunnels underneath the > > > > > > Hudson River. > > > > > > Now here's where I get lost. Does any one know where those > test > > > > > > trains were going? Maybe to somewhere out on Long Island, or maybe > > > > > > > > What I recall Bill Holler saying was that they were going out to the > > > > power plant on Long Island. We owe him a call anyway, and if he's up > > > > for recollection, I'll get any details I can from him. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 08:18:52 -0800 From: Richard Finlayson Subject: [PRR] Modeling question: K4, heavyweight, fast freight May I posit a modeling question? I am a live steam model enthusiast (i.e. design, build,run, repair) and have an Aster gauge one K4 that is just a marvelous model and an excellent machine. I am running some slightly overscale heavyweights with it (Aristocraft) but the effect is very nice... to my eye at least. I have found a few photos of K4s in bookstores and on the web and noticed in several photos that a few boxcars were cut in just behind the locomotive and in front of a string of heavyweights. I recall that they may have been lettered to indicate fast freight or something like that. My question is... was this typical or was it extraordinary or an exception? Also, did the PRR ever cut Railway Express Agency box cars in like that? I am not a finescale modeler, but it is fun to try to get some of the details right once in awhile, especially when that K4 live steamer is involved. Thanks, -Richard -- ================================================== Richard Finlayson richard@steamup.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling question: K4, heavyweight, fast freight Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 11:45:49 -0500 Richard:- Those boxcars you see were in Railway Express Agency or US Mail service. They were mainly X29's. They would be found on lesser trains, never on the "Broadway" or similar trains. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Finlayson" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 11:18 AM Subject: [PRR] Modeling question: K4, heavyweight, fast freight > May I posit a modeling question? I am a live steam model enthusiast > (i.e. design, build,run, repair) and have an Aster gauge one K4 that > is just a marvelous model and an excellent machine. I am running some > slightly overscale heavyweights with it (Aristocraft) but the effect > is very nice... to my eye at least. I have found a few photos of K4s > in bookstores and on the web and noticed in several photos that a few > boxcars were cut in just behind the locomotive and in front of a > string of heavyweights. I recall that they may have been lettered to > indicate fast freight or something like that. My question is... was > this typical or was it extraordinary or an exception? Also, did the > PRR ever cut Railway Express Agency box cars in like that? > > I am not a finescale modeler, but it is fun to try to get some of the > details right once in awhile, especially when that K4 live steamer is > involved. > > Thanks, > > -Richard > -- > ================================================== > Richard Finlayson > richard@steamup.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 14:08:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] RE: Aerotrain in Pgh. Hi List, This is a follow up on the Aerotrain thread of a few weeks ago. I just made email contact with the ex-PRR employee (Fred Martoia) that I mentioned who was familiar with the Aerotrain while in service on the PRR in Pittsburgh. He is 80 years old now so bare in mind he was a little hazey on a few points. This is what he shared with me. At the time the train was in service on the PRR he worked at Penn Station in Pittsburgh as a on hand Mechanic. (I originally thought he was specifically assigned out of 28th st. at this time. Guess not). Anyway, after the train arrived at the station and left the passengers off, Fred and another mechanic would board the loco. On its journey out to the PanHandle Bridge to the Wye Turnaround at Monon Tower, they would inspect the Locos' operating condition, etc. He did not say how long this move lasted. My guess is under 10 minutes. Once the train arrived once again at the platforms at the station for its run east they jumped from the train and inspected the Aerotrain Loco brakes. The LOCO ONLY! The Cars were left for the car department mechanics to check. Both sets of Mechanics would inspect the brake pads and if need be change only what needed to be changed. Sometime none, most times more. The Aerotrain Loco had 12 shoes (if he recalls correctly). The Brake Pads (some kind of lightweight Aluminum? material) were pretty quick to change. Just a pin or bolt and that was it. So it looks like the 35 minute layover seems to have been plenty of time for the mechanics to do their job, as long as the whole train set did not need the shoes changed? He also commented this: Once in awhile when there was no mechanic on hand at the station, Fred would get a call to jump on a Streetcar and ride down to the station from 28th st yards to meet the train as it arrived. He also told me once he worked on the Centipedes. Boy I pity him......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 13:31:27 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: [PRR] Little Miami RR was operating before PRR existed Rick, And the Indianapolis & Madison was chartered in 1832, four years before the Little Miami Railroad, although It didn't start laying track until the mid-1840s. The first rails of the Little Miami were laid in downtown Cincinnati in 1842. Its first 60 or so miles of track running north to Springfield were completed and regular freight and passenger between Springfield and Cincinnati established by, I think, August 1846, a couple of months before the Pennsylvania legislature granted the PRR Co. its charter. The LMRR, connecting the Ohio River at Cincinnati with Lake Erie to Sandusky, Ohio, once the Mad River & Lake Erie RR reached Springfield in 1848, was the first segment of the PRR to go somewhere significant. Tom V. --- RickTipton@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/12/01 9:45:30 AM Eastern > Standard Time, > PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > > << Will be working my way east to west across the > system. > > Regards, > Randy >> > > Randy - you're breaking hearts all over Lines West. > > (only in fun, but I do eagerly await > Pittsburgh-Dennison and beyond) > > You should know better than to tell the Lines West > people they have to wait > until everyone else is served -- they're very > impatient with that "Lines East > thinking". Of course, I understand arbitrary > sequencing. When I was in > school, "Tipton" came at the end of the alphabet, > and I never had to wake up > for the first half of the class. OTOH, by the time > it was my turn to answer > a question, it was a real bear. > > BTW I once asked a teacher at my kid's school why > she always started at the > beginning of the alphabet. She blinked at me and > said, as if she'd never > considered the matter, "I guess I could start at the > end and work backwards". > Clearly, was a new idea to her -- and this school > was supposed to have sharp > teachers. > > Now to apply this: Our buds on Lines East "know" > the railroad started at > their end -- it was built chronologically from there > west, and the mileposts > generally run westward. Of course, as a Little > Miami Railroad fan, I know > that those mileposts once ran eastward from > Cincinnati, and were in place > before the Pennsylvania Railroad Company was even > chartered. As an > ex-traffic guy, I also "know" that throughout the > history of the railroad, > more carloads started at the western end of a haul > and ran east -- there was > historically a lot more grain, farm products, > groceries, and lumber headed > east than there were cars of machinery and > manufactured goods headed west. > It's no wonder I look at the railroad west to east, > even if others don't. > > My point is that reference systems, no matter how > hallowed they are, are > arbitrary. Wherever you live always looks like "the > center of the world". > But Einstein rightly pointed out that any reference > system is arbitrary, and > none is conceptually superior to any other. If > that's true, how come we > always start at the east end of the railroad and (if > we don't get too tired) > finish up in the west? (No, I don't have a good > answer for this either. > It's just tradition, established by the way the > PRR's management habitually > listed most things). > > Having pulled your chain (and that of 90% of my > PRR-fan friends), let me > thank you for all the hard work - it's a neat > website feature and I'm > enjoying spending time with it. I look forward to > any and all additions. > > Rick Tipton > Louisville KY > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially > PRR Lines West > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 16:29:30 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] B&S bridge over PRR at Sinnemahoning A couple years ago somebody asked about a postcard view of "B&S bridge over PRR". I was pleased to suggest that the scene was at Sinnemahoning, where the Buffalo and Susquehanna crossed the PRR. As it happened, I was in Sinnemahoning Saturday. The abutments of that bridge and the B&S bridge over the creek are still visible and in quite good condition. In order to see them, assumimg you are approaching from the east on US120: As you approach the PRR 3-span truss over the creek, slow down and watch for a narrow blacktop road which dives down to the left and passes under the end of the truss bridge. Just drive slowly along that road keeping your eyes open. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 19:40:30 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] B&S bridge over PRR at Sinnemahoning On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, robert netzlof wrote: > In order to see them, assumimg you are approaching > from the east on US120: As you approach the PRR 3-span > truss over the creek, slow down and watch for a narrow I'd like to see this and will go at some point, but I figured for those of you playing at home, you'll do better trying to find PA 120 as like many US highways which didn't cross state lines, US 120 was state-highway-ified some years ago. (like 309 and 611 in the eastern part of PA) If I go I'll try to take pictures -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 20:53:26 EST From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Kris has done it again! Fellow Pennsy Modelers... Let me share with you what I just heard yesterday... Kris Kollar has completed his next article for Mainline Modeler. This article will cover the rebuilding and redetailing of the Bachmann K-4 Locomotive and tender. Now to be perfectly honest I knew more than I was willing to tell about the article and have kept it quiet until I knew the actual publish date... January and February issue! Yep, a two part issue, but more than worthy of both. I bet he is reading the Blueline as I write(for the tenth time). I got some sample shots of his work while he was working on it and the article should contain tips that even an old head like me can learn from... It will be a step by step rebuild that will cover all that you need to do this yourself. The work is typical good stuff... Kris ia young and inspiring for even us old dogs! I wish more young guys like Kris were willing to take the time to learn as he has... Great Job Kris! Research, Relax, Refine and Model the Prototype! It feels good to have it come out like you wanted it to. Kris is on the r Also the January issue will have an artilce from a friend of mine Mike Brock, perhaps you know him from the Passenger Car List, RPM list, or Freight Car List. His article will deal with photographic back drops. Mike's work on his UP layout is based on the Sherman Hill steam era area of Wyoming. He knows his prototype and the back drops are made from photos he shot and transplanted. Bruce Smith and I have seen his layout, last year in Cooca Beach at the "The Prototype And How To Model It" modeling meet held as a Mid-Winter modeling escape. GOOD STUFF! GREAT MODELER! Steam engine weathering like you wouldn't believe! He is holding the second annual event this January again in Cocoa Beach and I will be their and wouldn't miss it! If you are interested in coming let me know and I will send you the information and the price is right too 25 buck in advance 30 bucks at the door and two days of modeling the prototype, with 30 some clinics (in warmth). We'll have some goodies there from Walthe zine editors too! Hope this gets the blood flowing... Hope we can meet up in January in Cocoa Beach... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chuck Friedlein" Subject: Re: [PRR] Modeling question: K4, heavyweight, fast freight Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:20:04 -0500 Richard, While they may "never" (never say "never", never say "always") have been run on trains like the Broadway, the practice was quite common on many other passenger trains, both the PRR and other railroads. Though the picture you saw may have have been REA or mail service X29s, they also hauled REA-owned express reefers. These were sometimes used as box cars; hence, no ice would have been loaded in the bunkers of cars so used, but you'd be hard pressed to tell that from the outside while the train was going by. Chuck Friedlein From: "Gregg Mahlkov" > Richard:- > Those boxcars you see were in Railway Express Agency or US Mail service. > They were mainly X29's. They would be found on lesser trains, never on the > "Broadway" or similar trains. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard Finlayson" > Subject: [PRR] Modeling question: K4, heavyweight, fast freight > > May I posit a modeling question? I have found a few photos of K4s > > in bookstores and on the web and noticed in several photos that a few > > boxcars were cut in just behind the locomotive and in front of a > > string of heavyweights. I recall that they may have been lettered to > > indicate fast freight or something like that. My question is... was > > this typical or was it extraordinary or an exception? Also, did the > > PRR ever cut Railway Express Agency box cars in like that? > > > > Thanks, > > > > -Richard ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] Bachmann K4 Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 02:20:35 +0000 Has anyone heard about Bachmann re-toolin thier K4? John Glaab reported that Bachmann was bringing the K4 to Spectrum standards. It will have seperate sand dome and additional detail. If this is true, I wonder when it will be out. Eric _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 19:23:06 -0800 Subject: [PRR] RE: Aerotrain Mystery Solved From: "Douglas Nelson" Thanks Gary. This confirms that it was a turning move across the Panhandle Bridge. Mystery solved. Thanks again. Doug Nelson ---------- >From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) >To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] RE: Aerotrain in Pgh. >Date: Tue, Nov 13, 2001, 11:08 AM > > Hi List, > > This is a follow up on the Aerotrain thread of a few weeks ago. I > just made email contact with the ex-PRR employee (Fred Martoia) that I > mentioned who was familiar with the Aerotrain while in service on the > PRR in Pittsburgh. He is 80 years old now so bare in mind he was a > little hazey on a few points. This is what he shared with me. At the > time the train was in service on the PRR he worked at Penn Station in > Pittsburgh as a on hand Mechanic. (I originally thought he was > specifically assigned out of 28th st. at this time. Guess not). > Anyway, after the train arrived at the station and left the passengers > off, Fred and another mechanic would board the loco. On its journey out > to the PanHandle Bridge to the Wye Turnaround at Monon Tower, they > would inspect the Locos' operating condition, etc. He did not say how > long this move lasted. My guess is under 10 minutes. Once the train > arrived once again at the platforms at the station for its run east they > jumped from the train and inspected the Aerotrain Loco brakes. The LOCO > ONLY! The Cars were left for the car department mechanics to check. > Both sets of Mechanics would inspect the brake pads and if need be > change only what needed to be changed. Sometime none, most times more. > The Aerotrain Loco had 12 shoes (if he recalls correctly). The Brake > Pads (some kind of lightweight Aluminum? material) were pretty quick to > change. Just a pin or bolt and that was it. > > So it looks like the 35 minute layover seems to have been plenty of > time for the mechanics to do their job, as long as the whole train set > did not need the shoes changed? > > He also commented this: Once in awhile when there was no mechanic > on hand at the station, Fred would get a call to jump on a Streetcar and > ride down to the station from 28th st yards to meet the train as it > arrived. He also told me once he worked on the Centipedes. Boy I pity > him......Gary > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 22:58:21 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] More geographic reference systems In a message dated 11/13/01 5:58:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: << Rick, The Pilgrims landed in the East. Hence, the East was settled first. Make sense? Lin Bongaardt >> Sure makes sense to me, Lin. Or how about the Native Americans, who landed in the West 15000 years earlier. Hence, the West was settled first. Maybe it's just that my English and German ancestors stole it starting with the East end. See - totally arbitrary reference systems, generated by the cultures we're taught as children (or new hires). Isn't this fun? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95 Refill any ink cartridge for less! Includes black and color ink. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Vv.L9D/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 22:58:21 EST Subject: [PRR] More geographic reference systems In a message dated 11/13/01 5:58:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: << Rick, The Pilgrims landed in the East. Hence, the East was settled first. Make sense? Lin Bongaardt >> Sure makes sense to me, Lin. Or how about the Native Americans, who landed in the West 15000 years earlier. Hence, the West was settled first. Maybe it's just that my English and German ancestors stole it starting with the East end. See - totally arbitrary reference systems, generated by the cultures we're taught as children (or new hires). Isn't this fun? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: Re: [PRR] More geographic reference systems Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 23:40:10 -0500 Group: Ever notice that the Interstate Highway system is numbered west to east and south to north!!! I-5 in Calif. I-95 on the east coast. I-10 down south and I-94 up north!!! All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 10:58 PM Subject: [PRR] More geographic reference systems > In a message dated 11/13/01 5:58:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, > PRR@yahoogroups.com writes: > > << Rick, > > The Pilgrims landed in the East. Hence, the East was settled first. > > Make sense? > > Lin Bongaardt >> > > Sure makes sense to me, Lin. Or how about the Native Americans, who landed > in the West 15000 years earlier. Hence, the West was settled first. Maybe > it's just that my English and German ancestors stole it starting with the > East end. > > See - totally arbitrary reference systems, generated by the cultures we're > taught as children (or new hires). Isn't this fun? > > Rick Tipton > Louisville KY > Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Martin Latowsky" Subject: FW: [PRR] Request for info - "Return to" marks on covered hoppers Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 00:17:46 -0500 Hi all, I suspect (although I cannot confirm) that this should be Martins Creek, PA on the Bel-Del. An Alpha Portland Cement plant was located there. Regards, Martin Latowsky -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of RickTipton@aol.com Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 10:29 PM To: PRR@egroups.com; PennsyWest@egroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Request for info - "Return to" marks on covered hoppers Rick Tipton wrote: >> Martins Creek VA ? Return when/empty to PRR/Martins Creek/VA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 07:50:28 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] More geographic reference systems In a message dated 11/13/01 11:51:35 PM Eastern Standard Time, crashtek@ismi.net writes: << I-5 in Calif. I-95 on the east coast. I-10 down south and I-94 up north!!! All the best to you and yours Weldon >> This was done so that it would not conflict wit the older "U.S." system which started with "US 1" in the East and "Highway 101" in the West. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James L. McDaniel" Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:27:31 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] More geographic reference systems East, West, all around the town. The good folks at Jamestown were the first Europeans to be here permanently . . .ignoring the Vikings and the Spanish in Florida and whatever. Virginians had a functioning legislature in 1619 before the Pilgrims even left Europe. Jamestown is NEAR Williamsburg through which passes the C&O mainline which connected to the PRR Delmarva branch via a Ferry from Brooke Street to Little Creek to Cape Charles (PRR Content!) Jim McDaniel, having taken Virginia history here in Delmarva ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95 Refill any ink cartridge for less! Includes black and color ink. http://us.click.yahoo.com/E11sED/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:27:31 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] More geographic reference systems East, West, all around the town. The good folks at Jamestown were the first Europeans to be here permanently . . .ignoring the Vikings and the Spanish in Florida and whatever. Virginians had a functioning legislature in 1619 before the Pilgrims even left Europe. Jamestown is NEAR Williamsburg through which passes the C&O mainline which connected to the PRR Delmarva branch via a Ferry from Brooke Street to Little Creek to Cape Charles (PRR Content!) Jim McDaniel, having taken Virginia history here in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:47:35 EST Subject: [PRR] Return to Martins Creek In a message dated 11/14/01 1:12:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Subject: FW: [PRR] Request for info - "Return to" marks on covered hoppers From: "Martin Latowsky" Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 00:17:46 -0500 Hi all, I suspect (although I cannot confirm) that this should be Martins Creek, PA on the Bel-Del. An Alpha Portland Cement plant was located there. Regards, Martin Latowsky >> Martin, That would make sense -- our photo is hard to read. Anyone found a legible pic with covered hopper with this "return to"? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] More geographic reference systems Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:26:06 -0600 Enough, already! -----Original Message----- From: James L. McDaniel [mailto:jlmcdaniel@esva.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 8:28 AM To: RickTipton@aol.com Cc: PRR@yahoogroups.com; PennsyWest@egroups.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] More geographic reference systems East, West, all around the town. The good folks at Jamestown were the first Europeans to be here permanently . . .ignoring the Vikings and the Spanish in Florida and whatever. Virginians had a functioning legislature in 1619 before the Pilgrims even left Europe. Jamestown is NEAR Williamsburg through which passes the C&O mainline which connected to the PRR Delmarva branch via a Ferry from Brooke Street to Little Creek to Cape Charles (PRR Content!) Jim McDaniel, having taken Virginia history here in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 09:59:51 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] B&S bridge over PRR at Sinnemahoning --- Derrick J Brashear wrote: > On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, robert netzlof wrote: > > > In order to see them, assumimg you are approaching > > from the east on US120: As you approach the PRR > 3-span > > truss over the creek > I figured for those of > you playing at home, you'll do better trying to find > PA 120 as like many > US highways which didn't cross state lines, US 120 > was state-highway-ified > some years ago. By Jove he's right. Just checked the PennDoT county map for Cameron County and it's PA120. (And to think I drove right by those signs and didn't notice. Shame on me.) ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:51:41 -0500 From: Jeff Warner Subject: [PRR] For Sale: HO scale Rivarossi PRR 2-8-8-2 Hello. I have an HO Scale Rivaorssi 2-8-8-2 PRR road number 374 I am looking to sell. It has been modified to install a Digitrax DH121 decoder in the tender, so there are 3 small black wires running between the loco and the tender. It will run on either DC or DCC. I would like $90 plus shipping to include the decoder. This is the slightly older Rivarossi with the larger flanges and open frame motor. For more information or if you are interested, please contact me off list at jeffrywarner@home.com. Thanks, Jeff Warner NOTE: This message has been posted with the expressed permission of the listmaster. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Howard R. Graden" Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 21:43:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] frieght car data billane you must consider these factors; Light Wt,accurate, checked often,basis for charges Actual wt on scales act wt -lt wt =net load. Load limit , absolute axel bearings figure into this. load +lt wt must not exceed load limit Now comes the fun. The car is stencilled "capy" which is "nominal capacity in pounds or an arbitrary figure in poundsselected from a safety standpoint within reasonable phyical limit of the structure of the car."Words in parentheses quoted from the official railway equipment register A cars weight may vary over 1-2 tons during its lifetime. If you scan the listings in the ORER you will find many cars capy rounded off 3 and sometimes 4 digits as Capy 140000 Them is the facts,make of them what you will. gus # 84. Bill Lane wrote: > OK Freight Car Gurus, > > Maybe you are a math teacher too. I know that there has to be a relationship > between the Light Weight, Capacity, and Load Limit data. If you can only see > 2 of these numbers clearly, is it possible through simple addition or > subtraction to accurately get the missing number? Would there be 9 > possibilities? Since I asked that question, you should be able to see that I > am not a math major. If you want to give it a try with all the > possibilities, please do so as follows so I can print it. These are just > examples. > > Light Weight + Capacity = > Light Weight - Load limit = > > This oughta fill this list up for days! Please reply to billlane@snip.net > > Thanks > Bill > > "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. > > To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = > PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95 Refill any ink cartridge for less! Includes black and color ink. http://us.click.yahoo.com/XwUZwC/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 06:32:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Patriotic Billboards From: Jerry Britton As reported previously, Bennett Levin's Juniata Terminal company has two billboards onto which they posted two PRR war-time vintage ads in response to the attacks on America. You can view pics of the billboards on Keystone Crossings in the Photos section at... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/photos/jt_patriotic.ws4d Thank you, Bennett! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 22:55:55 EST Subject: [PRR] Overland Centipedes in HO I'm looking at purchasing a set of these units. I think they were produced two different times. Can someone tell me what the differences were between these production runs and how well do these engines operate. Also how can you tell the early run from the later ones. Thanks, Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:02:34 -0600 From: Randy Williamson Subject: [PRR] Latest Addition To My Website After much intense debate I decided to alternate additions between Lines East and Lines West. So for all of us Lines West Fans I have now added the Buckeye Region Local Arranged Freight Train Schedule to my website: http://www.randsrailstuff.net/Pennsylvania%20Railroad%20Freight%20Schedules/BUCKEYE%20REGION%20-%20HOME.htm Next up when I get back will be the Philadelphia Region. I am leaving today for a week's vacation visiting my parents in Mississippi. So may I be the first to wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving. Regards, Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:14:06 -0500 Subject: Re; [PRR] 5th Annual Survey From: Jerry Britton Don't forget to e-mail me your modeling surveys if you haven't done so already. I've received about four dozen to date...out of over 500 subscribers. Monday is the deadline. If you need a clean copy to fill out, see the PRR-talk archives at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/email/ And search for Keyword=survey and it should come up fairly early in the results. Thank you! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: Re: [PRR] Overland Centipedes in HO Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 11:08:38 -0800 Todd writes: > I'm looking at purchasing a set of these units. I think they were produced > two different times. Can someone tell me what the differences were between > these production runs and how well do these engines operate. Also how can you > tell the early run from the later ones. Thanks, Todd Horton Todd, I have two pair of Overland PRR Centipedes on my roster. The earlier models are OMI stock number 1931 "PRR Baldwin Centipede Type II w/antenna" and stock number 1932 "PRR Baldwin Centipede Type II w/o antenna" These were built by Ajin and imported in 1987 if I remember correctly. The later pair of models are OMI stock number 5257 "PRR Baldwin BH-50 Centipede Type I w/antenna" and stock number 5258 "PRR Baldwin BH-50 Centipede Type I w/o antenna". Also built by Ajin. I think these were made available in 1991, but don't quote me as I don't have my Brown Book handy. All four of the above models were unpainted. Overland also released factory painted PRR Centipedes somewhere around 1996 in both the 5-stripe and single-stripe schemes, but again I'm not sure of the exact date or model type. Getting back to my models, the only visual difference between Type I and Type II is a slight difference in the size of the grilles and a slightly different roof profile at the rear corners of the units. Perhaps Gary Mitner can chime in here as I believe he has recently painted some Centipedes for a customer. I also have a few photos of the Type I w/antennas on my Layout Page at Keystone Crossings. It may be viewed at: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/breon/ scroll down to the model photos and look for Centipede. Todd, as far as operation goes, all of mine run great. I did find that the springs on the lead and trailing trucks were too stiff and actually took quite a bit of weight off the drive wheels. I reduced the tension and added a bit more weight inside to greatly improve their pulling capacity. The models pose no tracking difficulties on my layout's tightest radius of 30". They will also negotiate a #6 crossover without hesitation. One more little tidbit of info that I recall without the models in front of me is that on the earlier models the piece of Overland/Ajin tape securring the plastic wrapper is brown whereas the later models use the current blue tape. Feel free to contact me if you require any further info to help with your decision. Jerry Breon Reading, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Randy Williamson Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 09:02:34 -0600 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Latest Addition To My Website After much intense debate I decided to alternate additions between Lines East and Lines West. So for all of us Lines West Fans I have now added the Buckeye Region Local Arranged Freight Train Schedule to my website: http://www.randsrailstuff.net/Pennsylvania%20Railroad%20Freight%20Schedules/BUCKEYE%20REGION%20-%20HOME.htm Next up when I get back will be the Philadelphia Region. I am leaving today for a week's vacation visiting my parents in Mississippi. So may I be the first to wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving. Regards, Randy ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95 Refill any ink cartridge for less! Includes black and color ink. http://us.click.yahoo.com/ltH6zA/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] P2K HH1 (Y3) query Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 19:14:16 -0000 Dear all, Life Like have added another good reason to be a Lines West modeller :-) Now the proud owner of one of the latest batch of P2K HH1s with the fish-belly 18000 gal. tender ....... it's #373 with the modified steam pipes on the front engine. As part of the detailing & weathering 'programme' I've added the dog house to the tender ....... but as I've only got a LHS broadside view of #373 I'm now in need of a bit of help, please. Here's a couple of questions for the list. 1) Would #373 have had the bar pilot removed and the two big PRR style footboards substituted? Pics of other HH1s show this. Period being modelled is c. 1947 as operating out of Columbus. 2) Can anyone suggest any other obvious details I might need to add for #373 at this time ? Thanks a lot. Regards, John H. Wright, Washington, England. Web sites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and http://www.xclent.clara.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Scott Schul Subject: [PRR] PRR in Z Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 14:24:38 -0500 I am here in (somewhat sunny) Portland, Maine and am new to list. I have done most of my model railroading in Marklin Z with European trains. I am now starting an American Z layout with PRR engines rolling stock. Any other Z fans on the list? I grew up in Kane, PA - the PRR station there is undergoing a very nice restoration, and my grandfather served as a cook on the PRR camp cars in the 1930's. Scott Schul ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 14:34:15 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] P2K HH1 (Y3) query From: Jerry Britton On 11/16/01 2:14 PM, John H. Wright (johnhwright@xclent.clara.co.uk) wrote: > Life Like have added another good reason to be a Lines West modeller :-) > > Now the proud owner of one of the latest batch of P2K HH1s with the > fish-belly 18000 gal. tender ....... it's #373 with the modified steam pipes > on > the front engine. John: Enjoy your new loco... it certainly is a superb model! Not only wrong scale for me, but wrong era as well. All retired by 1949. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 16:36:31 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] P2K HH1 (Y3) query John "Wrights": >Now the proud owner of one of the latest batch of P2K HH1s with the >fish-belly 18000 gal. tender ....... it's #373 with the modified steam pipes >on the front engine. Y-5 front engine...may have been exchanged with #375 at some point, leaving 373 with a Y-3 front engine. >As part of the detailing & weathering 'programme' I've added the dog house >to the tender Ah, you've discovered LL's little "mistake" >....... but as I've only got a LHS broadside view of #373 I'm now in need of >a bit of help, please. > >Here's a couple of questions for the list. > >1) Would #373 have had the bar pilot removed and the two big PRR style >footboards substituted? Pics of other HH1s show this. Period being >modelled is c. >1947 as operating out of Columbus. I'll have to double check, but I think you are right, however, as I stated above, this may be because of the swapped front engines... >2) Can anyone suggest any other obvious details I might need to add for #373 >at this time ? I hate to say this, but you should have ordered #376! She is detailed for that era, and the pilot beam markings are for Columbus (if you look, the pilot markings on 373 are for Enola ...not to gloat, but I'll take credit for that ). I believe that the front markers also moved to a higher location on the smokebox sometime around the move to Columbus. BTW, I think the color scheme and actual colors on this loco are spot on (thanks to Greg Martin, and a few hints from myself and others) but what is it with the bright white uncoupling lever on the front pilot? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: [PRR] Trainstuff PRR Tender Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 20:01:17 -0600 I recently received an HO PRR 90F82 tender from Trainstuff. Finally we have a correct short tender to use behind all those Bowser I1's and others, too. It is correct behind a K4 modeled in the 1930's. In the 1950's some H10's had this tender as well as a few H9's. The tender is cast in resin and is very well done. The body, floor, and rear step assembly are separate pieces. On the tank deck the water fill hatch and drains are cast in place. There is also a separate resin cast one man doghouse; it is cast in one hollow piece with only a little flash to be removed from the windows. This piece can be located in any position on the tank deck; a nice touch since the prototypes could be found in different locations. When these tenders served behind K4's in the 1930's, there was no doghouse, and many of the H9/H10 applications did not have them either. Check the photos of your favorite engines. A CalScale brass water scoop kit is included, as well as brass marker lights and a resin light. The rear ladder is a nice, very delicate resin casting. The ladder and the light can be located in different positions as on the prototype. Correct metal Andrews-type trucks with brass wheels are included. The trucks are attached thru the floor into a metal weight, thus providing needed weight as well as an electrical circuit. The tender is as prototypically correct as John and Dayna could make it, and they did a great job. Go see them at http://www.trainstuffllc.com/index2.html . Click on "Web Specials". Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 21:28:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Trainstuff PRR Tender Steve, I second your comments about the 90f82 Tender. I've been busy the past few days messing with the one I recieved. Here is a few prelim pics: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/90f82-index.html I have yet to add the back up light and ladder, I will probably use Brass parts. . I also want to add the stirrup steps found on the side near the rear platform steps. I too think this will be a big help with people who have the Bowser I1 and is a little tired of the long haul tender. Steve, you reminded me of my original plans for this tender. I wanted to model it as the early K4 tender. Here I forgot and added all the freight details. Dang!!! Now I may need another one. Good going Dayna, John!!! Now, what can we all come up with for their next project? Oh yeah, they are quite busy with some MP Units?....Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Roundhouse N scale 2-8-0 as H3a Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 21:33:39 -0500 Lists: There is a photo of H3a No. 1105 in Pennsy Power and H3a No. 7905 (Lines West) on the NE Rails website. I could not help but notice that the out of scale tender on the Roundhouse model would be correct for the PRR H3a. Looks like a new cab, Belpaire Firebox and a few minor detail adjustments would make a credible H3a out of the Roundhouse 2-8-0. I would imagine any such power would have been off the roster by the mid-1920's. Does anyone know for sure? Also, is anyone working on such a conversion or planning it? Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 07:28:13 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Little Miami dates & mileage In a message dated 11/13/01 11:47:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Subject: Little Miami RR was operating before PRR existed From: "Tom Vondruska" Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 13:31:27 -0800 (PST) Rick, The first rails of the Little Miami were laid in downtown Cincinnati in 1842. Its first 60 or so miles of track running north to Springfield were completed and regular freight and passenger between Springfield and Cincinnati established by, I think, August 1846, a couple of months before the Pennsylvania legislature granted the PRR Co. its charter.>> The 1946 book, The Little Miami Railroad , was written by the railroad's president, Robert L. Black (the Little Miami Railroad had been leased to the PRR interests since 1868/69, but its stockholders were still the beneficiaries of the PRR's rents). Mr Black claims: 1. organized May 13, 1836 at Waynesville OH (near Xenia). 2. road open/running from Cincinnati to Milford in December 1841 3. 1843 annual report states 28 miles are now in daily operation. 3. line opened to Xenia in August, 1845 4. First train Cincinnati to Springfield August 10, 1846. This would be somewhat less than the 89.7 timetable miles from Cincinnati Union Terminal to Springfield, but definitely more than the 76.8 timetable miles from Red Bank interlocking to Springfield. Mileages are from Western Region TT5, Oct 30, 1966. I'm uncertain of the exact meaning of your 60 miles cited. << The LMRR, connecting the Ohio River at Cincinnati with Lake Erie to Sandusky, Ohio, once the Mad River & Lake Erie RR reached Springfield in 1848, was the first segment of the PRR to go somewhere significant.>> 5. "As late as the summer of 1848, a distance of 14 miles of the Mad River remained unfinished... It was not until 1849 that the road... came into "fair operation"". The original point, of course, that Tom and I were making is that the Little Miami Railroad was in operation and established its mileposts running eastward from Cincinnati comfortably before the organization of the Pennsylvania Railroad. To extend this Little Miami thread further, at some later time, the mileposts were reset to run westward from Columbus (MP 0.0) to Cincinnati (MP 125.1 after CUT opened in 1933). I've not been able to determine when this flipover occurred, bringing these lines into "westward" agreement with most of the rest of the PRR's system (and specifically the Panhandle, which started counting in Pittsburgh and reached MP 190.7 at Columbus). Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95 Refill any ink cartridge for less! Includes black and color ink. http://us.click.yahoo.com/r9F0cB/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 07:28:09 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: N6A/N6B In a message dated 11/14/01 12:25:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, jconsoli@paonline.com writes: << Rick, Just another tidbit, was back at the archives again. Here is another evolution of a car, this time with a different starting point. class NE #996387 built 2/10 PFW&C Ry (for $150.18), renumbered #981130 at Conway 3/6/21, rebuilt by PRR to N6A at Mahoningtown 6/2/23 (for $1186.99), rebuilt N6B 4/24/40, still in service 9/51. Jack >> Thanks. Guys modeling the 50's have all the luck -- get to run these. BTW, I suppose I should know where Mahoningtown is, but I draw a blank. Was this a major shop, or just a minor car repair point that had some time on their hands? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95 Refill any ink cartridge for less! Includes black and color ink. http://us.click.yahoo.com/1_Y1qC/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 07:28:13 EST Subject: [PRR] Little Miami dates & mileage In a message dated 11/13/01 11:47:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Subject: Little Miami RR was operating before PRR existed From: "Tom Vondruska" Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 13:31:27 -0800 (PST) Rick, The first rails of the Little Miami were laid in downtown Cincinnati in 1842. Its first 60 or so miles of track running north to Springfield were completed and regular freight and passenger between Springfield and Cincinnati established by, I think, August 1846, a couple of months before the Pennsylvania legislature granted the PRR Co. its charter.>> The 1946 book, The Little Miami Railroad , was written by the railroad's president, Robert L. Black (the Little Miami Railroad had been leased to the PRR interests since 1868/69, but its stockholders were still the beneficiaries of the PRR's rents). Mr Black claims: 1. organized May 13, 1836 at Waynesville OH (near Xenia). 2. road open/running from Cincinnati to Milford in December 1841 3. 1843 annual report states 28 miles are now in daily operation. 3. line opened to Xenia in August, 1845 4. First train Cincinnati to Springfield August 10, 1846. This would be somewhat less than the 89.7 timetable miles from Cincinnati Union Terminal to Springfield, but definitely more than the 76.8 timetable miles from Red Bank interlocking to Springfield. Mileages are from Western Region TT5, Oct 30, 1966. I'm uncertain of the exact meaning of your 60 miles cited. << The LMRR, connecting the Ohio River at Cincinnati with Lake Erie to Sandusky, Ohio, once the Mad River & Lake Erie RR reached Springfield in 1848, was the first segment of the PRR to go somewhere significant.>> 5. "As late as the summer of 1848, a distance of 14 miles of the Mad River remained unfinished... It was not until 1849 that the road... came into "fair operation"". The original point, of course, that Tom and I were making is that the Little Miami Railroad was in operation and established its mileposts running eastward from Cincinnati comfortably before the organization of the Pennsylvania Railroad. To extend this Little Miami thread further, at some later time, the mileposts were reset to run westward from Columbus (MP 0.0) to Cincinnati (MP 125.1 after CUT opened in 1933). I've not been able to determine when this flipover occurred, bringing these lines into "westward" agreement with most of the rest of the PRR's system (and specifically the Panhandle, which started counting in Pittsburgh and reached MP 190.7 at Columbus). Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 07:28:09 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: N6A/N6B In a message dated 11/14/01 12:25:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, jconsoli@paonline.com writes: << Rick, Just another tidbit, was back at the archives again. Here is another evolution of a car, this time with a different starting point. class NE #996387 built 2/10 PFW&C Ry (for $150.18), renumbered #981130 at Conway 3/6/21, rebuilt by PRR to N6A at Mahoningtown 6/2/23 (for $1186.99), rebuilt N6B 4/24/40, still in service 9/51. Jack >> Thanks. Guys modeling the 50's have all the luck -- get to run these. BTW, I suppose I should know where Mahoningtown is, but I draw a blank. Was this a major shop, or just a minor car repair point that had some time on their hands? Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: Re: [PRR] P2K HH1 (Y3) query Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 13:46:21 -0000 Gentlemen, Thanks to you all for the replies. It looks like the front pilot and the back up light need some work ( ... also spotted PRR marker lights on the tender now I've had a closer look ) ....... so I'll get busy and post some pics on the web site when she's ready. First thing I did was to get rid of the bright oxide paint on the cab roof and tender and tone down the window frames ...... what a difference with a few strokes of paint. Looks like a 'model' already and not a refugee from a toy shop window :-) Bruce, I don't have any problem with acquiring #373 as a photo in PP 3 shows her at Columbus in 1947 ( July 3rd ) which is spot on for me ......... I had a choice of #373 or her sister #376 but preferred the big steam pipes. She's slated for helper service when I get round to rebuilding Franklinsburg II ........ where there's going to be a nice steady grade running on the main line for some 25 feet before levelling out through the station. Heavy coal trains will need assistance even with a J1 on the point I reckon. Can't match Gary's mega deal of $160, I got mine for 220 GBP which is about $317 ....... most UK dealer are quoting around 271 to 275 GBP so I'm more than happy with what I paid. In actual fact the loco 'cost' less than nothing since we ran a second-hand sales stand at our Exhibition last weekend and I sold 260 GBP's worth of junk ......... it never ceases to amaze what folks will buy if you put a 'cheapo' label on stuff. Have to add that I had the privilege of driving a ( N & W ) Y3 around the layout of the Blissfield, Michigan, club which I visited last month after the Cleveland Prototype Modelers' meet. The loco was fully fitted with DCC Soundtraxx and took nearly 40 mins to circumvent the system, whistling for grade crossings, ringing the bell through the yards and so on. Couldn't leave the USA without resolving to get one of these beauties and also go DCC as well. A fabulous experience. Regards, John H. Wright, Washington, England. Web sites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and http://www.xclent.clara.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." To: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 10:36 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] P2K HH1 (Y3) query > John "Wrights": > >Now the proud owner of one of the latest batch of P2K HH1s with the > >fish-belly 18000 gal. tender ....... it's #373 with the modified steam pipes > >on the front engine. > > Y-5 front engine...may have been exchanged with #375 at some point, leaving > 373 with a Y-3 front engine. > > >As part of the detailing & weathering 'programme' I've added the dog house > >to the tender > > Ah, you've discovered LL's little "mistake" > > >....... but as I've only got a LHS broadside view of #373 I'm now in need of > >a bit of help, please. > > > >Here's a couple of questions for the list. > > > >1) Would #373 have had the bar pilot removed and the two big PRR style > >footboards substituted? Pics of other HH1s show this. Period being > >modelled is c. > >1947 as operating out of Columbus. > > I'll have to double check, but I think you are right, however, as I stated > above, this may be because of the swapped front engines... > > >2) Can anyone suggest any other obvious details I might need to add for #373 > >at this time ? > > I hate to say this, but you should have ordered #376! She is detailed for > that era, and the pilot beam markings are for Columbus (if you look, the > pilot markings on 373 are for Enola ...not to gloat, but I'll take credit > for that ). I believe that the front markers also moved to a higher > location on the smokebox sometime around the move to Columbus. BTW, I > think the color scheme and actual colors on this loco are spot on (thanks > to Greg Martin, and a few hints from myself and others) but what is it with > the bright white uncoupling lever on the front pilot? > > Happy Rails > Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:48:48 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: N6A/N6B > class NE #996387 built 2/10 PFW&C Ry (for $150.18), > renumbered #981130 at Conway 3/6/21, > rebuilt by PRR to N6A at Mahoningtown 6/2/23 (for $1186.99), > rebuilt N6B 4/24/40, > still in service 9/51. So, this indicates migration as a 4-wheel cabin east of Pgh, then rebuilding as an 8-wheel car w/ wide cupola, and another rebuilding w/ "Panhandle" cupola? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:22:14 EST Subject: [PRR] UP on the PRR Did any one notice the UP hopper in the train on Pennsy Steam Years V3 on page 46? Anyone have an idea where this cars could have been headed? I know there's been great debate on the FCL about foreign road hoppers but this one seems a little far fetched. Todd Horton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] UP on the PRR Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 22:14:35 -0600 Todd--You asked: > > Did any one notice the UP hopper in the train on Pennsy Steam Years V3 on > page 46? Anyone have an idea where this cars could have been headed? I know > there's been great debate on the FCL about foreign road hoppers but this one > seems a little far fetched. > The photo was taken on the Shamokin Branch; that UP hopper has been drafted into ore train service. No doubt when ore shipment was in season the Railroad grabbed up every hopper they could find. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 03:14:28 EST Subject: [PRR] The Athearn Genesis F-units Hey Yuze Gize... As you should al realize the final run of the Athearn Genesis F-7's have been announced, and this configuration will not be repeated in the foreseeable future. They have ask me to gather my thoughts on the next configuration, so I thought I would canvas Yuze Gize for your thoughts. I was thinking helpers but I think that is being selfish, so if you have any personal favorites let's hear it. Are we thinking F-3 phase 2, 3 or F-3 phase 4 or F-7 again but a later configuration? Let me know I suppose I need to get started on the research for them. What paint scheme this time? Same thing? Move the keystone in the nose? Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 08:43:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] The Athearn Genesis F-units Greg and his Gize, EH-15's!!!!!!! With Open Door Pilots. ........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 13:58:33 -0600 From: Greg Johnson Subject: Re: [PRR] The Athearn Genesis F-units Greg, How about having them come with trainphone antennae installed? It would save us all a lot of time. Regards, Greg Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 2:14 AM Subject: [PRR] The Athearn Genesis F-units > Hey Yuze Gize... > > As you should al realize the final run of the Athearn Genesis F-7's have been > announced, and this configuration will not be repeated in the foreseeable > future. > > They have ask me to gather my thoughts on the next configuration, so I > thought I would canvas Yuze Gize for your thoughts. I was thinking helpers > but I think that is being selfish, so if you have any personal favorites > let's hear it. Are we thinking F-3 phase 2, 3 or F-3 phase 4 or F-7 again > but a later configuration? Let me know I suppose I need to get started on > the research for them. What paint scheme this time? Same thing? Move the > keystone in the nose? > > Greg Martin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR T1 Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 18:30:38 -0500 Group, I know this is stretching things a bit. But I have been contemplating correcting my Bowser T1 to a one peice frame. But Here come the question. I have been tossing around the idea of buying one of those small milling machines and need some ideas if that will do all I need it to make a new frame from aluminum or brass. What brand do you recommend? Thanks for the info in advance. Sam Vastano So many hobbies so little time! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: [PRR] supplies for scratchbuilding Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 18:44:06 -0500 Dear List: Does anyone know where I can get a small quantity of white diamond dust in paraffin? This is a polishing compound used to smooth out soft plastic by buffing with a soft cotton wheel. It is used allot in the Plexiglas industry, but I don't want to buy a "brick" of the stuff, just a little piece. Lew Synergistic Solutions: Alternative Septic and Energy Systems Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: [PRR] Re: The Athearn Genesis F-units Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 19:06:43 -0600 Greg--What a deal--we get to make a choice. It ain't supposed to be this way! OK, you asked. My absolute first choice would be an FP-7--yeah, yeah, I know that isn't what you asked, but maybe you can pass that on to the powers that be. Back to your question. > > Are we thinking F-3 phase 2, 3 or F-3 phase 4 or F-7 again > but a later configuration? > I vote for F-3 phase 3--model the common. A helper could be modeled by changing the number and adding the door stripes. I like the phase 4, but they look a lot like the current model of the early F-7. > >What paint scheme this time? Same thing? > Keep the same paint scheme; keep on modeling the transition era. Steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] supplies for scratchbuilding Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 20:21:12 -0500 Lew: Have you tried Micro-Mark? Seems to me they sell a "plastic polishing compound" May be the same thing. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 6:44 PM Subject: [PRR] supplies for scratchbuilding > Dear List: > > Does anyone know where I can get a small quantity of white diamond dust in > paraffin? This is a polishing compound used to smooth out soft plastic by > buffing with a soft cotton wheel. It is used allot in the Plexiglas > industry, but I don't want to buy a "brick" of the stuff, just a little > piece. > > Lew > > > > Synergistic Solutions: Alternative Septic and Energy Systems > Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hipes" Subject: [PRR] Train symbols on the Panhandle Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 02:16:47 I'm working on a project and have created a list of PRR train symbols circa 1966 that operated over former PRR lines between Pittsburgh, Columbus, Indianapolis, Cincinnati and St. Louis. I think a couple of you may have helped me with the first edition of this list. However, if there are any PRR symbologists out there that would be interested in looking at this list to help make corrections, additions and subtractions, please drop me an e-mail. At some point, we'll share with everyone on the list. Thanks Steve Hipes sthipes@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 18:47:57 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR T1 Sam, list, When you get a chance, check the PRR Talk archives. Bruce Smith is doing this same project and he's had some enlightening experiences along the way. Those of us (namely, myself) with 22" curves envy your space! Doug --- Sam Vastano wrote: > Group, > > I know this is stretching things a bit. But I have > been contemplating > correcting my Bowser T1 to a one peice frame. But > Here come the question. I > have been tossing around the idea of buying one of > those small milling > machines and need some ideas if that will do all I > need it to make a new > frame from aluminum or brass. What brand do you > recommend? > > Thanks for the info in advance. > > > Sam Vastano > So many hobbies so little time! > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 22:10:20 -0500 From: Ken Meyer Subject: [PRR] Layout Open Houses Everyone, I just spent the past 3 weekends visiting some of the layouts mentioned in "Keystone Crossings-Timetable". It is so encouraging to see such fine PRR modeling. But, today, I had the pleasure of visiting Ken McCorry's "PRR Central Region Northern Division". The "Model Railroader" (April 1999) article just touches the tip of the iceberg. Ken, great job. Remember, model railroading is fun, share it with family and friends. Ken Meyer Bel Air, Maryland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 23:22:34 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Layout Open Houses Thanks Ken. You were one of about 250 people who visited today. Hope all enjoyed their visit. ---------------------- Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 06:34:50 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Final Day to Submit Surveys From: Jerry Britton Folks, today is the final day to submit responses to our "5th Annual Modeling Needs Survey". If you haven't sent in a survey, please do so now. If you need a copy of the form, visit the list archive and search on Keyword = survey The archive is at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/email/ I have 44 responses so far...a bit under 10% of the list subscriber base. That's actually not bad, statistically speaking. But I want more!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 08:24:14 -0500 Subject: [PRR] HO PRR kits for Sale From: caseyj@igateway.com Date: Mon Nov 19, 2001 1:15 pm Subject: HO PRR kits for Sale I have two PRR Cary boilers for Sale. One is for a PRR K2 4-6-2. Designed to use a Mantua Pacific mechanism. Price=$50 plus shipping. The Second is a Cary boiler for the PRR N2sa 2-10-2. It uses the Bowser / Penn Line PRR decapod mechanism. and a trailing truck is required. Price=$65 Plus shipping Both boilers can be had for $100 plus shipping. When these locos are built and detailed they rival Brass. The boilers are accurate for the appropriate locomotives. contact me at caseyj@igateway.com Nick Kulp http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] supplies for scratchbuilding Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 08:17:10 -0500 Its not the same material, i.e. white diamond dust. Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" To: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 8:21 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] supplies for scratchbuilding > Lew: > > Have you tried Micro-Mark? Seems to me they sell a "plastic polishing > compound" May be the same thing. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" > To: "PRR-Talk LIST" > Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 6:44 PM > Subject: [PRR] supplies for scratchbuilding > > > > Dear List: > > > > Does anyone know where I can get a small quantity of white diamond dust in > > paraffin? This is a polishing compound used to smooth out soft plastic by > > buffing with a soft cotton wheel. It is used allot in the Plexiglas > > industry, but I don't want to buy a "brick" of the stuff, just a little > > piece. > > > > Lew > > > > > > > > Synergistic Solutions: Alternative Septic and Energy Systems > > Lewis J. Matt III, Ph.D., C.S.E.O. > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 09:43:21 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Athearn Genesis F-units How about the Athearn Classic scheme - Olive Green, five yellow stripes on the side, and one very wide single tapered stripe on the nose ;-) (Thank goodness that's now just quaint, old, embarrassing history.) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > > Hey Yuze Gize... > > As you should al realize the final run of the Athearn Genesis F-7's have been > announced, and this configuration will not be repeated in the foreseeable > future. > > They have ask me to gather my thoughts on the next configuration, so I > thought I would canvas Yuze Gize for your thoughts. I was thinking helpers > but I think that is being selfish, so if you have any personal favorites > let's hear it. Are we thinking F-3 phase 2, 3 or F-3 phase 4 or F-7 again > but a later configuration? Let me know I suppose I need to get started on > the research for them. What paint scheme this time? Same thing? Move the > keystone in the nose? > > Greg Martin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 09:51:57 EST From: RTSILLER@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] The Athearn Genesis F-units Greg, thanks again for your work in making the Genesis PRR F unit one of the best factory models going. I would like to see the F3 next. There have been so many F3s with the wrong number boards and pilots I would like to see the correct configuration for once. I'd prefer the Phase 2 or 3 first. Keep the same scheme. It's easier to add a PRR Keystone on the nose then try to make up a numbered Keystone to match a specific unit. While you're asking, I'd like to see some minor changes from the current release. It would be nice to have the trust plate painted from the factory on both the A & B units and to have the builder's plate included on the B unit. The Mircoscale decal I used for the B unit just doesn't compare to the painted one on the A unit. I'd also like to see only the one horn mounted. The factory finish on these models is so good; I hate trying to smooth things out after removing the extra horn. Now for the wishful thinking. It would be nice to have separate front coupler doors like the P2K E units. Nose lift rings as a separate add-on would come in handy also. Rick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 09:55:28 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] supplies for scratchbuilding Try McMaster-Carr at www.mcmaster.com. Enter "diamond" in the search window and look at the lapping compounds. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Lewis J. Matt PhD" wrote: > > Its not the same material, i.e. white diamond dust. > > Lew > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gregg Mahlkov" > To: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" > > Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 8:21 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] supplies for scratchbuilding > > > Lew: > > > > Have you tried Micro-Mark? Seems to me they sell a "plastic polishing > > compound" May be the same thing. > > > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" > > To: "PRR-Talk LIST" > > Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 6:44 PM > > Subject: [PRR] supplies for scratchbuilding > > > > > > > Dear List: > > > > > > Does anyone know where I can get a small quantity of white diamond dust > in > > > paraffin? This is a polishing compound used to smooth out soft plastic > by > > > buffing with a soft cotton wheel. It is used allot in the Plexiglas > > > industry, but I don't want to buy a "brick" of the stuff, just a little > > > piece. > > > > > > Lew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 10:23:51 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Layout Open Houses -- Photos From: Jerry Britton I want to thank all of the owners of the 81 layouts in southeastern Pennsylvania, northern Delaware, and southern New Jersey who have opened their doors this year. The Timetable page only posts a subset of the overall schedule -- the PRR layouts. There are still a few left, so if you can get free, do so, it's well worth it. The schedule is at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/timetable.ws4d This past Friday evening, four of us traveled from York, Pa., on the "Boys and Their Toys Tour II". We headed to Delaware to visit Charlie Grant's and Charley Carangie's layouts. First stop was Charlie Grant's. He models HO scale from Potomac Yard to Wilmington. He also includes the Port Road up. This design offers a ton of operation as it has tracks on about five levels with plans for two more. Some capability for future scenery was sacrificed for additional trackage for operations. Charlie's layout features well-modeled catenary. What blew me away was the hump yard at Potomac Yard. Ken McCorry had briefed me that Charlie had a "working hump yard". As expected, the operator would control the switcher and would guide a train over the hump (and magnetic uncoupler) and allow them to roll through the classification yard. The system was further enhanced in that the computer knew the consist of the train and would automatically align the turnouts for each car... as if the Hump tower would have done so. As each car passed through the retarders one could hear the "pfffttt" of the air compressors. Hmmm, effective sound effect. But then I noticed that the cars were slowing as they went through the retarders... and the operators foot controlling a pedal. This was actually a WORKING HUMP YARD!!! An air hose went to under each track. As the car rolled over it the operator would depress the foot pedal which would blast air upward on the underside of the car, simulating the effect of the retarders. Neat!!! Next stop was Charley Carangie's. Like the above, Charley models in HO, Washington to Wilmington, plus the Port Road...all the way to Harrisburg. The highlight of this layout was the Harrisburg passenger station. Charley made an eight track version, of decent lengths, with the sheds and stairways. What was really cool is that he transformed it into a snow scene. The entire ground, structures, vehicles, etc., are covered with about 4" of snow (baking powder). And all of the turnouts have a pair of glowing torches to keep their points from freezing!!! Superb! You can view photos of both layouts at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/photos/ Search for Keyword = Grant Or Keyword = Carangie To bring up the respective selections. Their is a QuickTime movie of Charley Carangie's Harrisburg station, but it is on the dark side as it was using ambient light and it was a night scene. Enjoy! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] The Athearn Genesis F-units Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 15:58:54 +0000 Greg and the List: Thank you for doing this marketing work for Athearn (as well as for us). I am not up to speed on all the variations and phases of the F-units, but I would like to see F-3's and the later version of F-7's with the "billboard" type number boards. I know that the following has NOTHING to do with the PRR, but if you could ask Athearn to do a future Genesis release of F-7's in Erie Lackawanna, I think that they would be a big seller. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana (mainly model the PRR but a little bit of the EL) :) >From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com >To: steveh@dotstar.net, PRR-Talk@dsop.com, PRR-Modeling@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [PRR] The Athearn Genesis F-units >Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 03:14:28 EST > >Hey Yuze Gize... > >As you should al realize the final run of the Athearn Genesis F-7's have >been >announced, and this configuration will not be repeated in the foreseeable >future. > >They have ask me to gather my thoughts on the next configuration, so I >thought I would canvas Yuze Gize for your thoughts. I was thinking helpers >but I think that is being selfish, so if you have any personal favorites >let's hear it. Are we thinking F-3 phase 2, 3 or F-3 phase 4 or F-7 again >but a later configuration? Let me know I suppose I need to get started on >the research for them. What paint scheme this time? Same thing? Move the >keystone in the nose? > >Greg Martin > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 11:08:55 -0600 From: Greg Johnson Subject: [PRR] Open House in Texas I know it is a long drive for those of you in the Northeast, but for those of you in the Houston area, my Allegheny Terminal layout will be open this Saturday & Sunday, 1-6 PM. Email me or call (281-996-0433) for directions. Regards, Greg Johnson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 11:21:37 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR T1 On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, Sam Vastano wrote: > I know this is stretching things a bit. But I have been contemplating > correcting my Bowser T1 to a one peice frame. But Here come the question. I > have been tossing around the idea of buying one of those small milling > machines and need some ideas if that will do all I need it to make a new > frame from aluminum or brass. What brand do you recommend? Sam, First, I have been working on this very idea, and have come to the conclusion that sheet brass is the way to go. Look at the article in Mainline modeler over the past three issues or so on the scratch built L&N 0-6-0...some great ideas there! As for milling machines, the new one from MicroMark is probably the best, however, you'll knock a few $$ off if you buy from the manufacturer direct (Grizzley? or something like that). Back to the T-1...you'll need to decide: 1) are you keeping the 1/8 axles? 2) Are you using bearings? 3) Are you springing the axles (remember, this sucka's got a LONG wheelbase and vertical curves will mess it up as much as horizontal ones) 4) Are you powering it with one or two motors? (original or can?)...I like the idea of two motors on seperate DCC decoders with the momentum on the front one set lower...too heavy on the throttle starting out and you slip it! Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 12:28:00 -0600 From: Vanvliet Subject: Re: [PRR] Open House in Texas FYI: see also: http://www.visualsage.com/mrrtours/ My wife and I will be there, Greg. Peter. At 11:08 AM 11/19/2001 -0600, you wrote: >I know it is a long drive for those of you in the Northeast, but for those >of you in the Houston area, my Allegheny Terminal layout will be open this >Saturday & Sunday, 1-6 PM. Email me or call (281-996-0433) for directions. > >Regards, > >Greg Johnson > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _____________________________________________________ Peter A. Vanvliet Visual Sage Houston, Texas Office e-mail: Peter@VisualSage.com Office website: http://www.VisualSage.com/ Personal e-mail: pvanvliet@ev1.net Personal website: http://users2.ev1.net/~pvanvliet ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 14:28:40 -0500 Subject: [PRR] VIEW Interlocking From: Jerry Britton Today's query (for my layout) is on VIEW interlocking at Duncannon, Pa. A color photo in "Pennsy Diesel Years, Vol.1", p. 51, shows the bridge with steel supports added. Does anyone know when these were added? Perhaps more importantly, does anyone know if these were on yet in 1954? I suspect they were later, but I need to be sure. Anyone have an interlocking diagram for VIEW? I am not interested in a track plan, but rather the actual interlocking diagram which will show the signal aspects for both the Home and Distant signals. Anyone know of published photos of VIEW tower from prior to the installation of the brick facade (which was circa early 1960's I am told)? Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 17:14:16 -0600 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] The Athearn Genesis F-units Greg: My vote would be for F-3's, phase two. Helpers would definitely be nice! Larry TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Hey Yuze Gize... > > As you should al realize the final run of the Athearn Genesis F-7's have been > announced, and this configuration will not be repeated in the foreseeable > future. > > They have ask me to gather my thoughts on the next configuration, so I > thought I would canvas Yuze Gize for your thoughts. I was thinking helpers > but I think that is being selfish, so if you have any personal favorites > let's hear it. Are we thinking F-3 phase 2, 3 or F-3 phase 4 or F-7 again > but a later configuration? Let me know I suppose I need to get started on > the research for them. What paint scheme this time? Same thing? Move the > keystone in the nose? > > Greg Martin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 08:26:34 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Survey Results Coming Soon From: Jerry Britton Thanks to all who responded to the "5th Annual Modelers Needs Assessment Survey". A late surge brought us to an 11% response rate, which is actually pretty good, statistically speaking. I will have the results soon. It takes quite a bit of time to tabulate all the entries, including classification (where the respondent did not know the class), and sometimes interpretation. I am about 2/3 done tabulating. Stay tuned... ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 11:03:21 -0500 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Possible Good News for AOL Users & Other MIME From: Jerry Britton As you know, some time ago I configured to listserv to block all messages in MIME format. The reason is that "most" viruses are now spread through the MIME/HTML format...sometimes unknowingly by the infected party, via their signature file. Any inbound message in MIME format would be discarded by the listserv. Unfortunately, AOL 6.0 went to MIME as the ONLY option, leaving a lot of our list subscribers (and subscribers elsewhere) unable to post to their lists. This has been the case for about a year. There may be a breakthrough!!! This evening I will be removing the MIME block from my listserv. I will instead be installing new filters on the mail server, which initially receives posts destined for the listserv. (The added benefit will be that my own personal mail will finally be screened!) The new filters will block * any EXE attachments * any VBS attachments * the VBS/LoveLetter virus * the Melissa virus * the Happy99 virus * mail from any domain listed in the RELAYS.ORDB.ORG database (SPAM) The end result is that valid MIME/HTML should pass through just fine, including AOL 6.x and 7.x clients! I will post this evening when this has been completed. Let me know if you have any problems. Please DO NOT make "test" posts to the list. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmaster ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: [PRR] Congo cars Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 10:39:04 -0600 I was looking through a 1967 issue of Trains last night ( July I think) and there were pictures of PRR cars in an article by Dubin that were not Tuscan or were lettered for other roads. He showed a picture of the Parlor car Miles Standish for the Congo and said it had black trucks. Is this correct or was it a lighting problem? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 13:26:54 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Congo cars Congo cars had black trucks. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Norm Bell wrote: > > I was looking through a 1967 issue of Trains last night ( July I think) and > there were pictures of PRR cars in an article by Dubin that were not Tuscan > or were lettered for other roads. He showed a picture of the Parlor car > Miles Standish for the Congo and said it had black trucks. Is this correct > or was it a lighting problem? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 13:28:42 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR "O" Scalers - "O" Guagers Can't post this as a link yet - but check Atlas "O" for a photo of a new PRR Airslide Covered Hopper: www.atlaso.com/images/ Pennsylvania ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] New Oxford Fire House Auction Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 15:31:02 -0500 Listers, Correct me if I'm wrong but is Wed. the auction at the New Oxford fire house? Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:13:08 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: TANGENT - Possible Good News for AOL Users & Other From: Jerry Britton The following has been done. Let's see how it goes... On 11/20/01 11:03 AM, Jerry Britton at (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > As you know, some time ago I configured to listserv to block all messages in > MIME format. > > The reason is that "most" viruses are now spread through the MIME/HTML > format...sometimes unknowingly by the infected party, via their signature > file. > > Any inbound message in MIME format would be discarded by the listserv. > > Unfortunately, AOL 6.0 went to MIME as the ONLY option, leaving a lot of our > list subscribers (and subscribers elsewhere) unable to post to their lists. > > This has been the case for about a year. There may be a breakthrough!!! > > This evening I will be removing the MIME block from my listserv. > > I will instead be installing new filters on the mail server, which initially > receives posts destined for the listserv. (The added benefit will be that my > own personal mail will finally be screened!) > > The new filters will block > > * any EXE attachments > * any VBS attachments > * the VBS/LoveLetter virus > * the Melissa virus > * the Happy99 virus > * mail from any domain listed in the RELAYS.ORDB.ORG database (SPAM) > > The end result is that valid MIME/HTML should pass through just fine, > including AOL 6.x and 7.x clients! > > I will post this evening when this has been completed. Let me know if you > have any problems. > > Please DO NOT make "test" posts to the list. -------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. http://www.dsop.com listmaster@dsop.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 17:49:37 EST Subject: [PRR] AOL Test --part1_3d.14c120a1.292c3801_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Test --part1_3d.14c120a1.292c3801_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Test --part1_3d.14c120a1.292c3801_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 19:39:56 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Results of 5th Annual Modelers Needs Survey (LONG) From: Jerry Britton The following are the results of the "5th Annual Modeler's Needs Assessment Survey" sponsored by "PRR-talk". Modelers were asked to indicate their top three requests for models in each of several categories. We had a response from 57 people. Where locos are noted, almost all responses indicate "Proto 2000 Quality", so assume that is the standard. Thanks to all for participating. The results will be forwarded to many manufacturers. On with the results... ======================== HO Scale ============================== STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED (12) J-1 / J-1a ***** YEAR AFTER YEAR ***** [Bowser was working on, but put on HOLD] (11) B-6sa / B-6sb (10) H-8 / H-9 / H-10 one person wants 6 (7) L-1s one person would purchase 3-4 (7) I-1 one person would purchase a dozen over 3 years (5) B-8 / B-8a (5) H-6sb (5) M-1 / M-1a (3) G-5s one person wants three (3) Q-2 (2) D-16sb (2) N-2 / N-2sa one person wants five (2) E-6 (2) K-4s / streamlined (2) T-1 (1) E-5s (1) E-2 (1) A-3 / A-4 (1) C-1 (1) F-3c (1) S-1 / S-2 ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED (16) P5a / P-5a modified ***** YEAR AFTER YEAR ***** (6) E-44 (3) B-1 (4) GG-1 (1) O-1 (1) FF-2 (1) DD-2 DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED (8) BP60 / BH50 ***** YEAR AFTER YEAR ***** (7) BP20 ***** YEAR AFTER YEAR ***** (6) BS24 (Baldwin RT624 transfer unit) (4) FS20 (FM H20-44) (3) GF25a (GE U25c) (2) AS16 / AS16m / AS16ms (Alco RS3) (2) BF16 (Baldwin RF16) (2) LS25 (Lima Hamilton transfer T2500) (1) ES15m (EMD GP7) w/torpedo tubes for passenger service (1) AF24 (Alco RS27) (1) AS24m / APS24ms (1) AF36 (Alco C636) (1) EFP15 (EMD FP7) (1) AS10s / AS10am / AS10as / AS10ams (Alco RS1) (1) APS24ms (Alco RSD7) (1) AS24M (RSD15) (1) EFS17m (EMD GP9, regularly available) (1) EF30a (EMD SD40) (1) AA5 (SW) (1) BS6 (VO1000) (1) GS4 (GE 44 ton) FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED (6) H-32 (4) H-30 / H-30a (4) X-23 one person would like 5-6 (4) K-7 (4) K-8 (4) X-58 (3) H-25 one person would purchase 24-30 (2) G-23 (2) F-43 (2) G-38 / G-39 ore jennies (2) G-36 (2) X-40 / X-40b (2) GLca (2) G-31 / G-31a (2) X-29d (1) H-27 (1) H-35 (1) G-32c (1) G-22 / G-22a (1) G-26 mill gon (1) X-30 (1) G-44 (1) X-33 (1) X-59 (1) X-61 (1) X-51 (1) GLc (1) any wood stock cars (1) F-25 (1) X-29b (1) heavy duty flat with 8 wheel trucks (1) 500,000 lb. Articulated depressed center flat #170245 (1) F-30 for 1954 TrucTrain NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK DESIRED (9) N-8 ***** YEAR AFTER YEAR ***** (6) N-6b one person wants 12 (3) FM-based tower car (3) N-6 (3) ND (1) N-5 (as built) (1) Brownhoist ballast cleaner (1) H-21L ballast hopper (1) X-23 MoW version (1) G-26 (1) yard sweeper (1) Jordan spreader (1) converted X-29 flanger (1) idler flat for class W-120/W-150 steam derricks (1) track car (1) KDRS-14 [???] PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED (11) MP54 / P54 / PB54 ***** YEAR AFTER YEAR ***** (6) R-50 / R-50b ***** YEAR AFTER YEAR ***** one person would buy multiple (2) Congo cars (2) P-70 [available] (2) MP85 Silverliner (2) assorted cars in correct "Fleet of Modernism" scheme (1) P-30a Troop sleeper (1) XP-30 troop sleeper converted to mail handling car (1) any decent head-end cars (1) twin unit diner [already available via sides] (1) "Metropolitan View" (1) P-70GSR [sides available] (1) 1940 South Wind (1) 1938 Broadway Limited "Fleet of Modernism" (1) 1948 Broadway Limited [coming in brass] (1) more car sides from Laser Horizons [all that is needed is plans!] (1) PB-70 (1) Better roofs and trucks for the ECW cars. (1) HW parlor car [this is in the works!!!] (1) HW solarium car (1) P-70far scheme 6 (1) P-70fbr round roof (1) P-70fr round roof (1) PS6LB (1) PS31L [sides already available] (1) round window troop cars (1) square window troop cars (1) troop kitchen cars (1) P-70gs STRUCTURES DESIRED (3) medium size station (Sunbury, Huntington, Williamsport, Northumberland) (3) standard interlocking tower [was there one?] (3) small size station (2) Lines West tower (1) Fairbanks Morse ash hoist/coaling hoist / helper station at Thorndale (1) any standard Delmarva Structure (1) LEMO / J tower (1) HARRIS tower (1) COLA tower (1) HUNT tower (1) Mt. Union passenger station (1) standard water towers (1) medium size coaling tower (1) South Amboy engine house (1) Lines West coal dock (1) brick tower (1) Enola coal wharf (1) Denholm coal wharf (1) PG tower (1) OB tower (1) Clairion station (1) operating 110' turntable (1) stone tower (IA/WJ) or station with tower in same style (KN) (1) Pittsburgh passenger station (1) large commissary/freight station (1) transformer substation (1) standard octagonal tower OTHER DESIRED (3) pre-assembled position signals (w/electronics and actuators) (3) signal bridges (3) signs (2) mid 1960's Fruehauf TrucTrain trailers (2) plastic catenary poles/bridges (1) 1940's Sperry Rail Service car (1) sound decoder for I-1 (1) GLa power brake conversion kit for Bowser Berwind cars (1) water plugs (1) PRR position light signals (1) 1954 TrucTrain trailers (1) tug boat (1) pre-assembled dwarf signals (w/electronics and actuators) (1) reinforced concrete bridge overpass with keystones cast on sides (1) Complete Aero-Train set (1) Ford tri-motor airplane (1) McKeen rail car (1) Doodlebug ======================== N Scale =============================== STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED (4) B-6sb (3) I-1 (3) L-1 (3) K-4s (2) H-9s / H-10 (2) E-6s (1) M-1 (1) G-5s (1) K-5 (1) T-1 (1) A-5 ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED (6) P5a / P-5a modified ***** YEAR AFTER YEAR ***** one person would buy three of each (5) B-1 one person would buy four one person would even accept dummies for looks! (4) E-44 (3) GG-1 (1) O-1 DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED (6) BP60 / BH50 ***** YEAR AFTER YEAR ***** one person would buy one pair of each (5) AF27 / AF30a / AF36 (Alco Centuries) (4) EF15 / EH15 (EMD F3) one person would buy one ABBA set of EF15 and one ABA of EH15 (3) BP20 one person would buy two ABA sets (2) BS10 (Baldwin VO-1000) (2) FS20 / FS20m (FM H20-44) (1) GF25a (GE U25c) (1) any three Baldwins! (1) FS16m (FM H16-44) FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED (3) G-38 / G-39 ore jennies one person wants "mass quantities" (2) F-30 one person wants 36-48 for TrucTrain one person wants 12-24 for TrucTrain (2) Gla (2) K-8 (1) ___ open auto rack (1) H-31 (1) H-39 one person wants "mass quantities" (1) G-41 NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK DESIRED (5) N-8 (3) N-5c (2) N-6 (1) N-5 [available] (1) H-21 ballast hopper (1) 150 ton wreck derrick (1) 250 ton wreck derrick PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED (3) R-50 / R50b one person would buy a 12-24 (3) 1948 Broadway Limited set (2) 1948 Liberty Limited set (2) MP54 / MPB54 / etc (1) BM-70 / BM70m mail/rpo (1) MP85 Silverliner (1) P-70 (1) B-70 (1) Z-74 business car (1) P-70FBR (1) D-78c diner (1) 1950's Northern Express STRUCTURES DESIRED (5) MG tower (2) VIEW tower (2) HARRIS tower (2) medium size station (Sunbury, Huntington) (1) coaling tower (1) Lock Haven tower (1) paper mill (1) LEMO / J Tower (1) ZOO tower (1) commuter station (1) Philadelphia style row homes (1) ALTO tower (1) pedestrian bridge (4th street Altoona) (1) PRR wooden tower (Jacks, Alto, MO, Port, Wye, AO, SO, NY (1) PRR later style roundhouse) OTHER DESIRED (4) Catenary towers and bridges (3) 26' or 28' TrucTrain trailers from 1954 one person would buy 48 one person would buy 24 (2) laser etched mileposts, whistle posts, other signs (2) railings (1) PRR ferries (1) PRR signal mast and bridges [coming now from Alkem] ======================== O Scale =============================== STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: (3) H9s / H10s (1) G5s (correct) (1) L-1 ELECTRIC LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: (1) B-1 DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: (1) AS16 PRSL (1) ES10 (1) AS6 FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: (1) X29 (1) G22 (1) FM NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: (1) N5 PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: (1) PRR/PRSL-P70fbR (1) PB70 (1) B60 ======================== S Scale =============================== STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED: (1) H9s (1) E6 (1) H6 FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: (1) gondola right for 1950's NON-REVENUE ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: (1) N5 PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED: (1) P70 STRUCTURES DESIRED: (1) JACKS tower (1) HUNT tower (1) Lines West brick depot --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 20:18:24 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Results of 5th Annual Modelers Needs Survey (LONG) Snippage except for the point I want to make. I notice under HO the P70 is noted as available. I didn't vote for it, and yes, that's true. However, I also notice: > DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED > (2) AS16 / AS16m / AS16ms (Alco RS3) > (2) BF16 (Baldwin RF16) > (1) AS10s / AS10am / AS10as / AS10ams (Alco RS1) > (1) BS6 (VO1000) > (1) GS4 (GE 44 ton) To which I can only say Atlas/Stewart, E-R Models, Atlas, Stewart and Bachmann. Some of these are old, but geez, how old is the VO1000? -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 21:32:34 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Results of 5th Annual Modelers Needs Survey (LONG) On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Jerry Britton wrote: > The following are the results of the "5th Annual Modeler's Needs Assessment > Survey" sponsored by "PRR-talk". > FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED > (3) H-25 > one person would purchase 24-30 Yikes!!! I'm curious, who are you and why on earth do you want this many...I'll have a freight car fleet of approximately 500 cars (250 PRR) and therefore need around 5 H25...You have a fleet of 3,000 cars?! Or do you know something about H25 assignments that the rest of us need to know? > PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED > (6) R-50 / R-50b ***** YEAR AFTER YEAR ***** > one person would buy multiple Y'all been paying attention? Looks like we might have 2 R50bs to choose from in the next year or so, one in resin for sure (Sunshine) and perhaps one in styrene, if the rumors pan out... Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2001 23:18:13 EST Subject: [PRR] Kris Kollar's L-1 Article Guys, For those of you who have been waiting to know where to send your checks ($3.95) Here's my address... (I have one already 3^) ) This will cover both issues ... get them out as I receive the check... Greg Martin 1523 Corum CRT NW Salem, OR 97304 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: STEVEGG1@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 00:55:13 EST Subject: [PRR] Lutherville, MD station --part1_8.1cd3c498.292c9bc1_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings all, A question about the present Lutherville, MD station along the PRR/ Northern Central. Did the PRR have anything to do with the design/ construction of this station? Also, exactly where was the Timonium station? Thanks Steve Panopoulos --part1_8.1cd3c498.292c9bc1_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Greetings all,
A question about the present Lutherville, MD station along the PRR/ Northern Central. Did the PRR have anything to do with the design/ construction of this station?
Also, exactly where was the Timonium station?
Thanks
Steve Panopoulos
--part1_8.1cd3c498.292c9bc1_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 01:14:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Results of 5th Annual Modelers Needs Survey (LONG) In a message dated 11/20/01 7:29:25 PM Central Standard Time, shadow@dementia.org writes: << To which I can only say Atlas/Stewart, E-R Models, Atlas, Stewart and Bachmann. Some of these are old, but geez, how old is the VO1000? >> I agree with you except on the E-R Models BF15. It is a reasonable trainfiller, but not state of the art, so, though I didn't put it in my top three, I would put the BF15 or BF16 fourth on the list of desirables.. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 01:25:01 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Results of 5th Annual Modelers Needs Survey (LONG) On Wed, 21 Nov 2001 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > I agree with you except on the E-R Models BF15. It is a reasonable BF16. The obvious BF15 spotting feature (though not the only one) was the slatted grills a la BP20. > trainfiller, but not state of the art, so, though I didn't put it in my top > three, I would put the BF15 or BF16 fourth on the list of desirables.. I agree it's dated, but I'm still waiting on ~10 other locomotives that I wish to acquire multiple of before I start worrying about replacing units that I've picked up more than a dozen of already and am getting by with. The C-Liners and Erie-Builts were appreciated, though:-) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 06:14:51 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Results of 5th Annual Modelers Needs Survey (LONG) From: Jerry Britton On 11/20/01 10:32 PM, Bruce F Smith at (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >> PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED >> (6) R-50 / R-50b ***** YEAR AFTER YEAR ***** >> one person would buy multiple > > Y'all been paying attention? Looks like we might have 2 R50bs to choose > from in the next year or so, one in resin for sure (Sunshine) and > perhaps one in styrene, if the rumors pan out... > Yeah, and that next locomotive from Miracle Castings is due out any day now, regardless of my opinion. (Didn't I take a bath over that one two plus years ago? ;-) ) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 06:16:13 -0500 Subject: [PRR] HO 1938 Broadway Limited Set For Sale From: Jerry Britton I am passing this on as "fair game" on the list. Contact Bill directly. On 11/20/01 11:18 PM, William J. Ayers at (prrq2@cal-net.net) wrote: > On the 5th Annual Modelers Needs Survey, one person has indicated a desire > for: > >> (1) 1938 Broadway Limited "Fleet of Modernism" > > I have a brass 10 car set for sale at Caboose Hobbies and recently lowered > the price. The link below will take you to the photos of the train. The set > is unpainted except for the observation car which was custom painted and > decaled for the Metropolitan View. The set comes with 11 unopened sets of > decals and one opened set (used on the Met. View). > > http://www.caboosehobbies.com/catalog/Description.cfm?sku=BC67182 > > If it is possible, could you forward this to that person, and I would be > happy to answer any questions. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:05:15 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Results of 5th Annual Modelers Needs Survey (LONG) > In the HO arena, several requrested models are already available (other than > brass, where everything is available and unaffordable)- to wit: > > ======================== HO Scale ============================== > STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED > > (10) H-9 (Bowser) > (7) L-1s (Bowser) > (7) I-1 (Bowser) > (5) M-1 / M-1a (Bowser) > (3) G-5s (Bowser) > (2) E-6 (Bowser) > (2) T-1 (Bowser) > > DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED > (7) BP20 (Miracle Castings) > (2) AS16 / AS16m / AS16ms (Alco RS3) (several mfgers) > (1) EFP15 (EMD FP7) (E-R) > (1) AS10s / AS10am / AS10as / AS10ams (Alco RS1) (Atlas ?) > (1) EFS17m (EMD GP9, regularly available) (P2K and others) > (1) BS6 (VO1000) (Stewart) > (1) GS4 (GE 44 ton) (Bachmann) > > FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED > (6) H-32 (A usually reliable source says that H30 and H32s will soon be > availble again from F&C) > (4) H-30 / H-30a > (4) K-7 (One of these 2 is supposed to be available soon in resin) > (4) K-8 > (3) H-25 > one person would purchase 24-30 (Jeez!) > (1) X-29b (I'm the one; and I'm surprised that I can find no one else > interested in the most common transition era PRR box car! C&BT promised > this several years ago. But he's had problems) > > > PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED > > (2) Congo cars (Come Walthers!! The parlor cars have been announced. They > called them "lounge" cars, but the true believers know better) > (2) P-70 [available] (Bachmann, ECW) > (1) any decent head-end cars (B60, M70, BM70nb available) > (1) twin unit diner [already available via sides] > (1) P-70GSR [sides available] (LH) > (1) PB-70 (Bachmann, ECW) > (1) P-70far scheme 6 (ECW) > (1) P-70fbr round roof (ECW) > (1) PS6LB (USP) > (1) PS31L [sides already available] Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:15:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Results of 5th Annual Modelers Needs Survey (LONG) From: Jerry Britton On 11/21/01 9:05 AM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > >> In the HO arena, several requrested models are already available (other than >> brass, where everything is available and unaffordable)- to wit: But if you recall the survey results intro, all model requests were to be for P2K quality units...e.g. Ready-to-run... >> >> ======================== HO Scale ============================== >> STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED >> >> (10) H-9 (Bowser) >> (7) L-1s (Bowser) >> (7) I-1 (Bowser) >> (5) M-1 / M-1a (Bowser) >> (3) G-5s (Bowser) >> (2) E-6 (Bowser) >> (2) T-1 (Bowser) These above are all kits. >> >> DIESEL LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED >> (7) BP20 (Miracle Castings) Kit. >> (2) AS16 / AS16m / AS16ms (Alco RS3) (several mfgers) Not regularly available. >> (1) EFP15 (EMD FP7) (E-R) Not currently available. >> (1) AS10s / AS10am / AS10as / AS10ams (Alco RS1) (Atlas ?) Available. >> (1) EFS17m (EMD GP9, regularly available) (P2K and others) Some dealers have, but not currently available. >> (1) BS6 (VO1000) (Stewart) Agreed. >> (1) GS4 (GE 44 ton) (Bachmann) Re-run coming soon. >> >> FREIGHT ROLLING STOCK DESIRED >> (6) H-32 (A usually reliable source says that H30 and H32s will soon be >> availble again from F&C) Take a deep breath. How long can you hold it? >> (4) K-7 (One of these 2 is supposed to be available soon in resin) Again, no "reliable" commitment. >> (1) X-29b (I'm the one; and I'm surprised that I can find no one else >> interested in the most common transition era PRR box car! C&BT promised >> this several years ago. But he's had problems) Agreed. "Merchandise Service" had units reserved, then cancelled. >> PASSENGER ROLLING STOCK DESIRED >> >> (1) P-70far scheme 6 (ECW) Probably an "education" issue here. Even I knew ECW offered a P70far, but they don't advertise it as a "Scheme 6". Perhaps they should, if that is what it indeed is. >> (1) PS6LB (USP) Company went out of business for several years. New web site, but no response. Vapor. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:34:30 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Class BM70 From: Jerry Britton Could one or more of you fine folks educated in the ways of passenger equipment please compare and contrast the following three sub-classes of BM70's: BM70 BM70m BM70m 30' I know the 30' refers to mail space vs. baggage space, but I don't know how it compares to the otherwise standard space allocation. I am planning for models of many trains and the "Makeup of Trains" book lists all three sub-classes for various trains. Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 08:38:43 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] HO 1938 Broadway Limited Set For Sale From: "William J. Ayers" List, Thanks, Jerry, for passing this on to the list. If anyone wishes to purchase the set, I will retrieve it from Caboose Hobbies (they've had it since May) and let it go for the advertised price minus the store's commission. If interested, please contact me off list. Thanks. Bill > From: Jerry Britton > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 06:16:13 -0500 > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: [PRR] HO 1938 Broadway Limited Set For Sale > > I am passing this on as "fair game" on the list. Contact Bill directly. > > On 11/20/01 11:18 PM, William J. Ayers at (prrq2@cal-net.net) wrote: > >> On the 5th Annual Modelers Needs Survey, one person has indicated a desire >> for: >> >>> (1) 1938 Broadway Limited "Fleet of Modernism" >> >> I have a brass 10 car set for sale at Caboose Hobbies and recently lowered >> the price. The link below will take you to the photos of the train. The set >> is unpainted except for the observation car which was custom painted and >> decaled for the Metropolitan View. The set comes with 11 unopened sets of >> decals and one opened set (used on the Met. View). >> >> http://www.caboosehobbies.com/catalog/Description.cfm?sku=BC67182 >> >> If it is possible, could you forward this to that person, and I would be >> happy to answer any questions. >> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:40:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Class BM70 From: Jerry Britton On 11/21/01 9:34 AM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > Could one or more of you fine folks educated in the ways of passenger > equipment please compare and contrast the following three sub-classes of > BM70's: Just found some more info... > > BM70 clerestory roof > BM70m round roof, different window and door arrangement than BM70 > BM70m 30' Is this really a BM70ka? BM70ka has 30' mail space in one end. > > I know the 30' refers to mail space vs. baggage space, but I don't know how > it compares to the otherwise standard space allocation. > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: [PRR] Troop sleepers Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:15:57 -0600 Nice picture of a K4 pulling troop sleepers in the Dec. MR. Anybody know the location? There is a troop sleeper in New Buffalo Michigan that has been restored. I will have to see what trucks it has next time I go through the town. norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 10:31:16 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Class BM70 I don't know that there ever was a plain vanilla BM70. The BM70m was the most common variety. It had a very small baggage space ( usually used just for mail storage or company mail) and a 60' RPO "apartment". It is characterized by a high arch roof, 6 wheel trucks, and single hung windows. The BM70n was functionally equivalent to the BM70m with changes to the roof line, trucks and windows. More or less, it is the Rivarossi car in HO The BM70k is the 30' RPO "apartment" car with a correspondingly larger baggage section. All BM70k's were rebuilds from earlier versions. They came in both 2 baggage door and four baggage door versions, depending what they were converted from. No one has made one in HO since JC Silversides (am I showing my age?). The Keystone had an excellent issues devoted to RPOs several years ago. It was one of their best. It even included usable plans for all the classes and traced their respective conversion histories. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > Could one or more of you fine folks educated in the ways of passenger > equipment please compare and contrast the following three sub-classes of > BM70's: > > BM70 > BM70m > BM70m 30' > > I know the 30' refers to mail space vs. baggage space, but I don't know how > it compares to the otherwise standard space allocation. > > I am planning for models of many trains and the "Makeup of Trains" book > lists all three sub-classes for various trains. Thanks! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 11:32:29 EST From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Results of 5th Annual Modelers Needs Survey (LONG) Jerry and folks, Hmmm, guess I didn't notice the 'fine print' about these desired models being in a ready to run state.This requirement cuts the likelihood of production by a very large percent, and almost seems to do a dis-service to many of the fine products that are available. I hope I don't sound like too much of an old pedantic stick in the mud, but I don't think most modelers serious enough to be dedicated to a long-gone railroad are all that afraid of quality kits. In view of that opinion, perhaps I can point out a few overlooked Pennsy products, already existing, that might fill a few holes in the 'want list'? As regards headend cars, aside from the fine X29's available from Red Caboose, how about the horse cars and 'scenery' car from Bethlehem Car Works? (B74 and B70 variants).And don't they offer a heavyweight parlor-lounge car as well? Granted, these are kits that go beyond the usual Lifelike level of modeling, but they're very fine models when completed. As regards an RS3 model, perhaps the best of them, the Model Die Casting version, is readily available. Even with the Katolike drive they generally run about $50 from the discounters and are nearly RTR. (Completion is about on par with an Athearn diesel regarding handrails and various details).The older Athearn powered ones are about half that price, and seem to have been regeared from the factory; not bad drives at all. I dunno about the prospect of some of the requested products in a rtr state, but I'd imagine models with more than one prototype operator having the best shot. Much as I love Baldwins, it'd be great to see that big center cab 'transfer' unit, and it had a number of reallife owners. (Stewart Hobbies, you guys listening?I bet these units in EJ&E green or MN&S blue would be a hit, as a bonus). Oh well, just a few notes. thanks, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 09:24:28 PDT Subject: [PRR] Class BM70 Hi Andy, Jerry & list members, Andy wrote: > I don't know that there ever was a plain vanilla BM70. I believe there were plain vanilla BM70 cars, my belief is based on a memory of having read about them in the Keystone article you referenced below. I'm out of town just now and don't have the article in front of me. Andy and also wrote: > All BM70k's were rebuilds from earlier > versions. Not correct. BM70k cars were built new in the early/mid 1920's. The class grew in numbers in the 1940's as cars from other classes were converted to class BM70k. These conversions were cars which had postal sections of non-standard length. When the post office decided to pay only for 15/30/60 foot lengths, the oddball sized cars were converted to BM70k w/ a standard 30-foot postal section. >The Keystone had an excellent issues > devoted to RPOs several years ago. It was > one of their best. It even included > usable plans for all the classes and > traced their respective conversion histories. Recommended reading! - Claus Jerry Britton wrote: > Could one or more of you fine folks educated in the ways of passenger > equipment please compare and contrast the following three sub-classes of > BM70's: > > BM70 > BM70m > BM70m 30' > > I know the 30' refers to mail space vs. baggage space, but I don't know how > it compares to the otherwise standard space allocation. > > I am planning for models of many trains and the "Makeup of Trains" book > lists all three sub-classes for various trains. Thanks! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:45:58 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Class BM70 From: Jerry Britton On 11/21/01 11:24 AM, Claus Schlund (schlund@cwnet.com) wrote: > Andy wrote: > >> I don't know that there ever was a plain vanilla BM70. > > I believe there were plain vanilla BM70 cars, my > belief is based on a memory of having read about them > in the Keystone article you referenced below. I'm out > of town just now and don't have the article in > front of me. They definitely existed. Here's the elevation plan: http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=bm70.gif&sel=baggmail& sz=sm&fr= > > Andy and also wrote: > >> All BM70k's were rebuilds from earlier >> versions. > > Not correct. BM70k cars were built new in the early/mid > 1920's. The class grew in numbers in the 1940's > as cars from other classes > were converted to class BM70k. These conversions were > cars which had postal sections of non-standard > length. When the post office decided to pay only > for 15/30/60 foot lengths, the oddball sized > cars were converted to BM70k w/ a standard 30-foot > postal section. Rob's site, while perhaps not all-inclusive, has no plans for a NEW BM70k, only rebuilds. Elevations are offered for rebuilds from BM70a, BM70f, and BM70g. The "Makeup of Trains" for my era shows nearly all BM70m, with one BM70 and a couple of BM70k. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James Taverna" Subject: [PRR] Pictures of H-21/H25/H35 Shadow Keystone cars Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 13:06:01 -0500 Guys, I am working with Gregg Komar to do an O scale and HO lettering set in the shadow keystone scheme for the H-21/H-25/H-35 hoppers due to the number of cars now available. I am looking for pictures of the cars when they were just painted or new with that scheme to give some more information than that contained in the Middle Division lettering book. Can anyone direct me to some sites that might have the photos? I now the Keystone had a great color centerfold but I can't remember what issue. I appreciate your help on this. Jim Taverna _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: [PRR] Results of 5th Annual Modelers Needs Survey (LONG) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 12:21:02 -0600 The following are the results of the "5th Annual Modeler's Needs Assessment Survey" sponsored by "PRR-talk". Jerry and List, First, I'd like to thank Jerry for taking his time to send out the survey again this year and sending off the results to the many model manufactures. I'd have to say that we modelers got a few models (Bowser Gla in HO for one and N scale H21's coming soon) out of last years efforts. I can only hope we can see a few more new models this next year. Pete Reinhold ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pictures of H-21/H25/H35 Shadow Keystone cars Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 13:51:43 -0500 I have a few photos on my site.. They're not great but might be helpful... They're scanned from a PRR booklet on coal mines and are a bit grainy. H21 http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=PRR_194906_H21A.jpg& fr=clH21 H25 (the .jpg filename is wrong. it's an H25..) http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=PRR_171906_H35.jpg&f r=clH25 H35 http://prr.railfan.net/freight/freightphotos.html?photo=PRR_267317_H35.jpg&f r=clH35 If you click on the "class page" link on each of the photo pages, there's a list of some published photos of the classes too... Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of James > Taverna > Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:06 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Pictures of H-21/H25/H35 Shadow Keystone cars > > > Guys, > I am working with Gregg Komar to do an O scale and HO lettering > set in the > shadow keystone scheme for the H-21/H-25/H-35 hoppers due to the > number of > cars now available. I am looking for pictures of the cars when they were > just painted or new with that scheme to give some more > information than that > contained in the Middle Division lettering book. Can anyone direct me to > some sites that might have the photos? I now the Keystone had a > great color > centerfold but I can't remember what issue. I appreciate your > help on this. > Jim Taverna > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pictures of H-21/H25/H35 Shadow Keystone cars Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 13:32:21 -0600 Look in the book by John Teichmoller (sp!), which gives an extensive history of PRR hoppers, including plenty of pictures. -----Original Message----- From: James Taverna [mailto:jwtaverna@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 12:06 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Pictures of H-21/H25/H35 Shadow Keystone cars Guys, I am working with Gregg Komar to do an O scale and HO lettering set in the shadow keystone scheme for the H-21/H-25/H-35 hoppers due to the number of cars now available. I am looking for pictures of the cars when they were just painted or new with that scheme to give some more information than that contained in the Middle Division lettering book. Can anyone direct me to some sites that might have the photos? I now the Keystone had a great color centerfold but I can't remember what issue. I appreciate your help on this. Jim Taverna _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 15:37:55 EST From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Results of 5th Annual Modelers Needs Survey (LONG) Barry and all, I always wait to here from Barry, Andy and a few others on matter like these "WISH LIST." You know what they say about wishing... I find it much easier to find a product that makes really good sense and the producer can get a lot of mileage out of. I was surprised to see no one ask for a RSD-7 or RSD-15...? Now, here is a plausible product because the truck exists and it has support by several other Railroads so a producer could hit multipul markets, oh well what do I know? I have my wishes too but... So as long as we are wishing I wish for... WORLD PEACE! BArry writes... >As regards an RS3 model, perhaps the best of them, the Model Die Casting version, is readily available. Even with the Katolike drive they generally run about $50 from the discounters and are nearly RTR. (Completion is about on par with an Athearn diesel regarding handrails and various details).The older Athearn powered ones are about half that price, and seem to have been regeared from the factory; not bad drives at all.< Barry, you are a true believer, here is the BEST RS-3 on the market! The Hobbytown is a close second if it weren't for the cast stanchions and work needed to the cab. It has the correct cab, the correct carbody length, and can represt all of the PRR variations, if you are willing to do the work, except the Phase 2 (which the PRR did not have) and the Phase 3. the drive well you have your choice, the origianl gear to a 65mph max, or the Proto 2000-like drive. Eiterh way the trucks are correct and I personally like the original. I have several... >I dunno about the prospect of some of the requested products in a rtr state,but I'd imagine models with more than one prototype operator having the best shot. Much as I love Baldwins, it'd be great to see that big center cab 'transfer' unit, and it had a number of reallife owners. (Stewart Hobbies,you guys listening?I bet these units in EJ&E green or MN&S blue would be a hit, as a bonus).< Don't forget the Santa Fe units! But again, how many would one guy buy and how much are you going to be willing to pay for it. I would buy the LIMA units too as I am modeling Mingo Jct to Conway...but, wish on! >Oh well, just a few notes. thanks, Barry Peltier< I think Andy reminds us that many things we wish for are out there if you are willing to work at it and for Jerry's limiting us to P2K-like Quality-R-T-R, well I know of a couple of projects in the works on this "WISH LIST" but some other will be left to the modelers... Hell, for that matter you even have to add antenna mast to most offerings... But these talks are fun but I don't believe spawn many real items. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 16:13:51 EST From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Results of 5th Annual Modelers Needs Survey (corrected) Jeeze let me fix this up a bit, where did the extra easie come from...? Barry and all, I always wait to hear from Barry, Andy and a few others on matter like these "WISH LIST." You know what they say about wishing... I find it much easier to find a product that makes really good sense and the producer can get a lot of mileage out of. I was surprised to see no one ask for a RSD-7 or RSD-15...? Now, here is a plausible product because the truck exists and it has support by several other Railroads so a producer could hit multipul markets, oh well what do I know? I have my wishes too but... So as long as we are wishing I wish for... WORLD PEACE! Barry writes... >As regards an RS3 model, perhaps the best of them, the Model Die Casting version, is readily available. Even with the Kato-like drive they generally runs about $50 from the discounters and are nearly RTR. (Completion is about on par with an Athearn diesel regarding handrails and various details).The older Athearn powered ones are about half that price, and seem to have been regeared from the factory; not bad drives at all.< Barry, you are a true believer, here is the BEST RS-3 on the market! (The Hobbytown is a close second if it weren't for the cast stanchions and work needed to the cab.) It (MDC?Roundhouse)has the correct cab, the correct carbody length,diamond plate on the walkways, and can represent all of the PRR variations, if you are willing to do the work. (Except the Phase 2, which the PRR did not have, and the Phase 3.) The drive, well you have your choice, the original geared to a 65mph max, or the Proto 2000-like drive. Eiterh way the trucks are correct and I personally like the original. I have several... >I dunno about the prospect of some of the requested products in a rtr state,but I'd imagine models with more than one prototype operator having the, best shot. Much as I love Baldwins, it'd be great to see that big centercab 'transfer' unit, and it had a number of real life owners. (Stewart Hobbies you guys listening? I bet these units in EJ&E green or MN&S blue would be a hit, as a bonus).< Don't forget the Santa Fe units! But again, how many would one guy buy and how much are you going to be willing to pay for it. I would buy the LIMA units too as I am modeling Mingo Jct to Conway...but, wish on! >Oh well, just a few notes. thanks, Barry Peltier< I think Andy reminds us that many things we wish for are out there if you are willing to work at it and for Jerry's limiting us to P2K-like Quality-R-T-R,well I know of a couple of projects in the works on this "WISH LIST" but some other will be left to the modelers... Hell, for that matter you even have to add antenna mast to most offerings... But these talks are fun but I don't believe they spawn many real items. Greg Martin There, that is more like what it was supposed to come out like... 3^) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 16:34:18 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Chicago to Pittsburgh - Via Columbus Was recently reading some PRR freight schedules data that amazed me. Is it really true that Conway made up a separate classification for 59th Street Yard (Chicago), and dispatched it via Columbus (WC-11)? Pitcairn made one up, too (PWC-1). I'd say the burning question here is, 1. Was this simply the easiest way to get a train to 59th Street from the east? Or, 2. Was this traffic bypassing around the busy Fort Wayne line? There were also eastbounds, with AST-2 and NW-88 running from 59th to Enola, and CNY-2 all the way from 59th Street to Greenville. One other item - memory tells me there was a reefer train (CG-8?)from Chicago to the east that was routed down the Panhandle to get iced at Columbus (I got to Yard A in time to see some ruins of a pretty large icing plant). I've been told Columbus got the icing plant because that way, trains from both Chicago and St. Louis connections could be re-iced by one facility. Anybody know more about this? I'll confess to being a little confused by the idea that not all Panhandle trains used 59th Street as a terminal. But it's logical that connections to some Chicago roads might be better via 59th, and others via Colehour, the BRC's Clearing Yard, or other points. Hope I'm not construing this data wrong -- it makes Columbus in the late 60's look like a good prototype for a very busy model railroad . For those of you who've been sleeping the last couple of months, this summer I moved into a new house with larger basement, and am cooking up a new track plan to use some of the 800 cars off the previous 1968-era Ohio PRR layout. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95 Refill any ink cartridge for less! Includes black and color ink. http://us.click.yahoo.com/bAmslD/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 16:34:18 EST Subject: [PRR] Chicago to Pittsburgh - Via Columbus Was recently reading some PRR freight schedules data that amazed me. Is it really true that Conway made up a separate classification for 59th Street Yard (Chicago), and dispatched it via Columbus (WC-11)? Pitcairn made one up, too (PWC-1). I'd say the burning question here is, 1. Was this simply the easiest way to get a train to 59th Street from the east? Or, 2. Was this traffic bypassing around the busy Fort Wayne line? There were also eastbounds, with AST-2 and NW-88 running from 59th to Enola, and CNY-2 all the way from 59th Street to Greenville. One other item - memory tells me there was a reefer train (CG-8?)from Chicago to the east that was routed down the Panhandle to get iced at Columbus (I got to Yard A in time to see some ruins of a pretty large icing plant). I've been told Columbus got the icing plant because that way, trains from both Chicago and St. Louis connections could be re-iced by one facility. Anybody know more about this? I'll confess to being a little confused by the idea that not all Panhandle trains used 59th Street as a terminal. But it's logical that connections to some Chicago roads might be better via 59th, and others via Colehour, the BRC's Clearing Yard, or other points. Hope I'm not construing this data wrong -- it makes Columbus in the late 60's look like a good prototype for a very busy model railroad . For those of you who've been sleeping the last couple of months, this summer I moved into a new house with larger basement, and am cooking up a new track plan to use some of the 800 cars off the previous 1968-era Ohio PRR layout. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 16:51:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Results of 5th Annual Modelers Needs Survey (LONG) In a message dated 11/21/01 8:11:10 AM Central Standard Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << 1) X-29b (I'm the one; and I'm surprised that I can find no one else > interested in the most common transition era PRR box car! C&BT promised > this several years ago. But he's had problems) >> I'm interested, too! I guess we have to cross C&BT off. To my knowledge the X-29b is also the one 40' car which had the jazzy Merchandise Service paint scheme with silver stripe and circle keystone. The test shots by C&BT in that scheme a few years ago were mouthwatering. I also mentioned the X-40b but forgot to vote in on the X-23. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:01:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Results of 5th Annual Modelers Needs Survey (LONG) Bob, List, The X-29b was, is?, available from Sunshine. I got one a few years back at a train show. The now built up model can be found (somewhere) on my model page listed below. Great kit! Nice car!....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: [PRR] Re: Results of 5th Annual Modelers Needs Survey Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 23:41:57 -0000 Just a comment from this side of "the pond", for my sins I also model Swedish Railways in HO as well as the PRR, and the traditional way of increasing the very limited range is for local brass of resin manufacturers to produce body kits to fit a suitable chassis. Surely therefore this method could increase the range of PRR locos in various scales; for example an E44 could be built using a resin body on a suitable diesel chassis with either Sommerfeldt or Entec pantographs.. This is a cheaper option than an all brass model, but would involve more work to assemble. I have done a T44 this way using an Athearn chassis, Mashima motor and a Modelproduction body, for a total of 125 GBP. Patrick Grace ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:44:56 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Kudos, and a case for kits Hello list, Kudos to Jerry for tabulating our wish list! I misinterpreted the initial email; I would be happy to get any of the items on my wish list (and many of the items on everyone else's) in kit form. I am probably a distinct minority in that I don't have a layout (excepting my test oval). It's very challenging to simultaneously build rolling stock and engines while building a layout; I understand a preference for ready to run (at a P2K level). At the same time, during a soft economy, I think many of us will have more time than money (my usual status; I'm investing a lot to make up for lost time). Anyway, kits are a good way to build skills and stretch your hobby dollar where they're available (I realize that a great deal of N scale has always been ready to run). I also like to personalize my equipment; my model of K4s 7133 (as she appeared in 1946) is not likely to look exactly like anyone else's Bowser K4s kit (or Bachmann, brass, etc). I also like detailing to my personal taste; I like to add piping, mechanical lubricators, and so on to my K4s fleet, but I find brake gear to be a personal nemesis; I leave it off. I find it easier to modify and maintain something I've built myself. At the same time, it took me several years and lots of mistakes to get good at tuning my steamers (fortunately the mistakes I made were correctable for small sums). However you acquire them, enjoy your trains! I'm off to watch my MTH PRR freight set (H10s) do circles for a bit. Doug __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] 5th Annual modelers survey - kits vs. RTR in N scale Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 21:44:29 -0500 Jerry & list:- As far as I'm concerned, it makes no difference to me whether cars, locomotives, or structures are kits or ready to run, as a matter of fact, I'd probably prefer a good kit, like the Fine-N-Scale X-29's and X-31's as long as the appropriate decals are furnished or available. I also tried to limit my choices to items that have not been available except in brass and would have to be scratchbuilt in N scale. For example, L1's, K4's, I1's, and B6sb's can be reworked from existing models that although discontinued, are still available. I believe the Gloor Craft N6b kit can still be purchased, for example, but N5c's and N8's would be a tough scratchbuild in N scale. Just some observations. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 22:49:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Chicago to Pittsburgh - Via Columbus Rick, I was always under the impression that CG-8 was a stock movement. Perhaps it was both (priority movement)? There was an ice facility at Canton Ohio also. Ed Martin ..."a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 23:42:40 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Results of 5th Annual Modelers Needs Survey (corrected) On Wed, 21 Nov 2001 TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > producer can get a lot of mileage out of. I was surprised to see no one > ask for a RSD-7 or RSD-15...? Now, here is a plausible product because I did. What do you think APS24ms/AS24m are? -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 00:36:30 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Kudos, and a case for kits --On Wed, Nov 21, 2001 17:44 -0800 "Doug Kisala" wrote: > I am probably a distinct minority in that I don't have > a layout (excepting my test oval). Don't bet on it ... the most vociferous commentators/critics are often those with large collections of unbuilt kits in the closet of a spare room that "someday" will be the layout room. > challenging to simultaneously build rolling stock and > engines while building a layout; I understand a > preference for ready to run (at a P2K level). Kit building (don't forget structures) is as important, if not more so than layout building. Kit building and layout planning/concept development to hand in hand. > At the same time, during a soft economy, I think many > of us will have more time than money (my usual status; > I'm investing a lot to make up for lost time). I spent most of the last half of my military career amassing a shelf stock of kits ... now I'm building them. Which is not to say I've stopped buying .. Red Caboose X29s came along post-retirement. But the fleet of H21a's and H22a's I purchased in the early 90s didn't see the light of day until 1998, and this month finally saw the last one weathered, "layout quality'd", and on the display shelf awaiting the first run on a still-to-be-built layout. Do what you can do when you can do it. And remember, "he who dies with the most toys wins." Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 02:07:27 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Kudos, and a case for kits In a message dated 11/21/01 7:57:20 PM Central Standard Time, dougkisala@yahoo.com writes: << my model of K4s 7133 (as she appeared in 1946) is not likely to look exactly like anyone else's Bowser K4s kit (or Bachmann, brass, etc). >> One of life's little pleasures is having someone ask you "where did you get that?" because it doesn't look like every other Athearn, Bachmann, Walthers clone. <> Excellent point. Whether it is a Bowser or a brass bargain I have remotored and painted, I like the comfort of being able to quickly assemble and dissassemble. I work part-time in a hobby shop and a good analogy is R/C cars and trucks. Lots of RTR, but if I ever got into the hobby,I would opt for the bag of parts and build-myself. Then you can do your own modifications and maintenance with ease. << I'm off to watch my MTH PRR freight set (H10s) do circles for a bit. >> OK, now you are rubbin it in. I saw this at the Chicagoland Hobby Show and almost chucked all my HO on the spot. Premium scale-quality, sound, lights, smoke. I almost didn't even notice the third rail. I needed a bib to catch the drool. Couldn't take my eyes off it. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 08:00:47 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Kudos, and a case for kits I think, if the truth be known, a substantial minority of us are sans layout for various reasons including time, space, money, small children, and fear of starting and/or failing to complete one to the level we hope for. I am without space having sold the big house and garage last summer. We now live in a very small (24x30) cottage filled with college kids and dogs home for the holidays, and two storage barns full of extra furniture and tools and such. The footings for the rest of the house, including a combined office & train space for me, were poured as of Friday last. My current train space consists of a shared desk with a three foot by 8" shelf above it for "display" and part of a closet for storage. Eventually, I will build a section of the Delmarva Division on which to put the kits and structures I am now building. What I am learning about the PRR from this list and other sources will make that future a reality and a much better layout. Happy holidays, Jim McDaniel, planning for rebuilding the past here in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "aidrian.bridgeman-sutton" Subject: Re: [PRR] Results - Kits Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 20:17:11 -0000 Said Andy Miller > > In the HO arena, several requrested models are already available (other than > > brass, where everything is available and unaffordable)- to wit: > > ======================== HO Scale ============================== > > STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED > > > > (10) H-9 (Bowser) > > (7) L-1s (Bowser) > > (7) I-1 (Bowser) > > (5) M-1 / M-1a (Bowser) > > (3) G-5s (Bowser) > > (2) E-6 (Bowser) > > (2) T-1 (Bowser) Fair enough, but as one of those who voted for new HO steam I suppose I'd better say why. I like Bowser kits, and have built a couple, but they are getting very long in the tooth. It's not the kit aspect that troubles me, but the fact that these are really starting to show their age - like Mantua's line, the product hasn't really developed beyond 1950s technology in many respects. In the absence of other options I'll make do, but in all honesty there's a lot of work needed to bring these old kits up to an acceptable level. That can include a new frame, wheels and mechanism to get the proportions under the running board to match the full size engines. I really do think it's well past time for a serious upgrade at the very least. Available doesn't imply that they are up with the current state of play Aidrian ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: Re: [PRR] Results - Kits Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 17:43:33 -0500 I gave up on Bowser some time ago. I found that if I calculated the time spent on the kit, the money spent on the super detail parts, and the cost of the actual kit; I was better off buying a lower end brass. (Sunset, GEM, Westside, and PFM) Not only was the money about equal, but the brass looked a heck of a lot better. However, the new plastic stuff seems to rival in detail any brass engine that I have. If I want to built kits, I have plenty of rolling stock, buildings, and bridges to work on. Another thing is that an newer modeler might be willing to buy some rtr Pennsy engine, but might not want to put the effort or time into building a locomotive kit. Maybe with Bachmann supposedly redoing the K4, we will see more new plastic Pennsy steam. It could include a kit feature such as which front end treatment it gets. Eric > [Original Message] > From: aidrian.bridgeman-sutton > To: > Date: 11/22/01 3:17:11 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Results - Kits > > Said Andy Miller > > > > In the HO arena, several requrested models are already available (other > than > > > brass, where everything is available and unaffordable)- to wit: > > > > ======================== HO Scale ============================== > > > STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED > > > > > > (10) H-9 (Bowser) > > > (7) L-1s (Bowser) > > > (7) I-1 (Bowser) > > > (5) M-1 / M-1a (Bowser) > > > (3) G-5s (Bowser) > > > (2) E-6 (Bowser) > > > (2) T-1 (Bowser) > > Fair enough, but as one of those who voted for new HO steam I suppose I'd > better say why. > > I like Bowser kits, and have built a couple, but they are getting very long > in the tooth. It's not the kit aspect that troubles me, but the fact that > these are really starting to show their age - like Mantua's line, the > product hasn't really developed beyond 1950s technology in many respects. > > In the absence of other options I'll make do, but in all honesty there's a > lot of work needed to bring these old kits up to an acceptable level. That > can include a new frame, wheels and mechanism to get the proportions under > the running board to match the full size engines. > > I really do think it's well past time for a serious upgrade at the very > least. Available doesn't imply that they are up with the current state of > play > > Aidrian > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. --- Eric Lauterbach --- ealauterbach@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] Results - Kits Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 21:11:36 -0500 Group, I still like kits. Even though I have heard a bunch of negatives about Bowser. Who else does Pennsy Kits???? I think I enjoy them much more than the brass that I have because I buy the brass paint it and done. No excitement for me but with a true kit I get plenty of evenings of enjoyment out of the money I spend. I really wish more companies would follow suite. Mabe on a higher scale than Bowser but until then I have 3 or 4 Bowser kits on the shelf calling my name. Isn't that what it is all about. Having fun!!!! Sam Vastano So many hobbies so little time! >From: "Eric Lauterbach" >Reply-To: ealauterbach@earthlink.net >To: PRR-talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] Results - Kits >Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 17:43:33 -0500 > >I gave up on Bowser some time ago. I found that if I calculated the time >spent on the kit, the money spent on the super detail parts, and the cost >of the actual kit; I was better off buying a lower end brass. (Sunset, GEM, >Westside, and PFM) Not only was the money about equal, but the brass looked >a heck of a lot better. However, the new plastic stuff seems to rival in >detail any brass engine that I have. If I want to built kits, I have plenty >of rolling stock, buildings, and bridges to work on. >Another thing is that an newer modeler might be willing to buy some rtr >Pennsy engine, but might not want to put the effort or time into building a >locomotive kit. >Maybe with Bachmann supposedly redoing the K4, we will see more new plastic >Pennsy steam. It could include a kit feature such as which front end >treatment it gets. >Eric > > > > [Original Message] > > From: aidrian.bridgeman-sutton > > To: > > Date: 11/22/01 3:17:11 PM > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Results - Kits > > > > Said Andy Miller > > > > > > In the HO arena, several requrested models are already available >(other > > than > > > > brass, where everything is available and unaffordable)- to wit: > > > > > > ======================== HO Scale ============================== > > > > STEAM LOCOMOTIVES DESIRED > > > > > > > > (10) H-9 (Bowser) > > > > (7) L-1s (Bowser) > > > > (7) I-1 (Bowser) > > > > (5) M-1 / M-1a (Bowser) > > > > (3) G-5s (Bowser) > > > > (2) E-6 (Bowser) > > > > (2) T-1 (Bowser) > > > > Fair enough, but as one of those who voted for new HO steam I suppose >I'd > > better say why. > > > > I like Bowser kits, and have built a couple, but they are getting very >long > > in the tooth. It's not the kit aspect that troubles me, but the fact >that > > these are really starting to show their age - like Mantua's line, the > > product hasn't really developed beyond 1950s technology in many >respects. > > > > In the absence of other options I'll make do, but in all honesty there's >a > > lot of work needed to bring these old kits up to an acceptable level. >That > > can include a new frame, wheels and mechanism to get the proportions >under > > the running board to match the full size engines. > > > > I really do think it's well past time for a serious upgrade at the very > > least. Available doesn't imply that they are up with the current state >of > > play > > > > Aidrian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > >--- Eric Lauterbach >--- ealauterbach@earthlink.net >--- EarthLink: It's your Internet. > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KLJURY@aol.com Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 21:31:51 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR FP7 4859 --part1_b7.172a6a57.292f0f17_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting article by Dan Cupper on the one of a kind rebuilding of PRR FP7 4859 in the mid-60's. Unit was involved in a wreck and nose was replaced with an FT nose off ex-GN Y1a electric that itself had been rebuilt with two FT noses. Talk about kitbashing on a prototype scale! Find this in Nov/Dev 2001 Diesel Era magazine pages 47-53 with good photos and interesting background. Page 46 also has a great shot of passenger sharks lined up at Bay Head. --part1_b7.172a6a57.292f0f17_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting article by Dan Cupper on the one of a kind rebuilding of PRR FP7 4859
in the mid-60's. Unit was involved in a wreck and nose was replaced with an FT nose
off ex-GN  Y1a electric that itself had been rebuilt with two FT noses. Talk about
kitbashing on a prototype scale!
Find this in Nov/Dev 2001 Diesel Era magazine pages 47-53 with good photos and
interesting background. Page 46 also has a great shot of passenger sharks lined
up at Bay Head.   --part1_b7.172a6a57.292f0f17_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 21:57:21 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Results - Kits On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Sam Vastano wrote: > Group, > > I still like kits. Even though I have heard a bunch of negatives about > Bowser. Who else does Pennsy Kits???? - Well, to name two, Westerfield and Sunshine! And I find those kits far more enjoyable that Bowser, since it takes me awhile to do one, and I don't have to put up with Bowser's lousy paint and lettering ! I hate to say how many I have on the shelf calling my name (and that includes 24 Bowser GLa hoppers Jerry sent the other day!) As to Eric's original comment on the Botchman K4...I think that the next release is the "prewar" version, and unless I'm totally mistaken it will again be released with the 110P70 tender (no stoker). Frnakly, I'd love to see someone release a tender that was correct for anything other than "as built" for the K4! And speaking of kits, I too have just recieved a 90F82 tender from John and Dayna. John again shows why he has earned the nickname Merlin, as the sides of this tender are simply gorgeous! It is not a "shake the box kit", but a little work will get you a tender that will look great behind a Bowser or Brass I-1. And the good news is that it is resin, which menas you can bash to your hearts delight (ie modify rivet patterns, etc...) Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Results - Kits Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 21:12:12 -0700 Bruce and all... I think that these comments refer to locomotive kits...and then the answer is truly "no one"... I too have some of the Glca's...nice little kit...too bad Bowser can't somehow manage to get the paint and lettering correct... And I too have a 90F82 coming in the near future...I've got a new Bowser I1s up in the closet just waiting for it! I can hardly wait... Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 23:23:59 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR FP7 4859 Kerry, list: Thanks for the kind comments regarding Diesel Era; just one correction to Kerry's post-- The road number of PRR's one-of-a-kind FP7 was 4359, not 4859, which is the GG1 that's displayed at Harrisburg station. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 01:09:20 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Results - Kits Hey... HEY BILL... I got a new one in my closet too! Dang... When I am finished with mine you won't be able to tell if it is brass or a miniaturized I-1... And it was me that gave John that nickname because he is a Merlin ... the Wizard... Bill you wrote... << And I too have a 90F82 coming in the near future...I've got a new Bowser I1s up in the closet just waiting for it! I can hardly wait... Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ >> Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 05:28:24 -0800 (PST) From: Joseph Andrews Subject: [PRR] Bowser bashing When I was a kid way back in the 50s, one of my cherished dreams was to someday have the money, skill, time, tools and space to build a Bowser kit. I now have more unbuilt Bowser kits on my shelf than I ever could have imagined back then. I know that they don't stand up to the more modern products now available, but I still get more satisfaction out of seeing that A-5 valve gear working that I assembled myself than all the other "better" stuff that I have. Joe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Results - Kits Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 06:28:55 -0700 And Greg (now that I see you sent me this on the PRR list...) a couple of other points... I really think we need some additional parts for these locomotive kits...the tender should be the first of several parts that would help make these kits into true "brass-busters". Here's mine... 1) More and better tenders made out of resin...I know that Dayna and John are thinking of this. And the 70P70 can be easily done using the MDC plastic tank...what we really need are some good tanks for K4s, M1a/b, L1s (although in a rare fit of "how the hell did we do this?" Bowser actually managed to do the correct tender for their L1s...although the rivets are gross and the tender weights a ton!) as well as the other tenders...resin is the ideal medium for this! 2) Better cabs...get rid of those cast metal ones! Two styles will cover almost all classes of locomotives...the small metal cab and the older cab as found on Consols and the E6s... 3) Better side rods (I mentioned this to you before but it needs to be said again)...stamped metal dosen't cut it at all...and those silly hex head screws don't look anything like a real locomotive. 4) Proper brake gear...the PRR used a unique style of brake hangers on their locomotives...somebody can make some masters and cast them in either brass or plastic (doing both is possible). 5) A new casting for stacks...the cast one that comes on the boiler simply sucks...it's way too thick and thinning it makes it dangerously thin. These 5 points (if anybody else has any other ideas I would appreciate hearing them) should cover most of the more glaring problems...anyone out there have any other comments...and yes, I know that early brass might be better (I have some already), but out here in the deepest, darkest part of the Southwest, brass is very scarce! Bill Daniels Tuscan, AZ On Fri, 23 Nov 2001 01:09:20 EST TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: >Hey... HEY BILL... > I got a new one in my closet too! Dang... When I am >finished with mine you >won't be able to tell if it is brass or a miniaturized >I-1... And it was me >that gave John that nickname because he is a Merlin ... >the Wizard... > >Bill you wrote... ><< And I too have a 90F82 coming in the near >future...I've got a new Bowser >I1s up in the closet just waiting for it! I can hardly >wait... >Bill Daniels >Tucson, AZ >> > >Greg Martin > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with this list, please visit >http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 09:28:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Results - Kits Bill, Remember Mellor? He used to make PRR Cab detail items. What this consisted of was a thin Brass sheet overlay with etched on rivit detail and add on smoke deflector, cab windows and toe walks. This is just what the doctor ordered to update those old metal castings. I once used these on an English 0-4-0 Yardbird and a Cary M1a. In my opinion that is the way to go to update the 1950 style Bowser stuff. It is a wonder Bowser didn't pick up this line when Mellor died. Would have been a nice seller for them in their detail line. I no longer have any of those locos as I slowly graduated to Brass Locos...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 10:12:48 EST Subject: [PRR] Northumberland Station Sorry if some of you receive multiples of this question as I have posted it to several lists. Can anyone direct me to some photos and/or drawings of the Northumberland Station either on the net or maybe in some of the many Pennsy books? Thanks in advance, Dayna ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 10:30:16 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser bashing From: aurora7@juno.com Yeah, I don't quite understand the grudge regarding Bowser kits. The locomotives are heavy, they pull a good train length, they represent more classes of Pennsy/LIRR steam than any other single manufacturer has, and for the price, they fill a need. My suggestions for Bowser would be to dump the other boilers, the Challenger, etc,., and consider merely specializing in Pennsy equipment. Find a metal that is not as brittle as zamac, and work as hard as possible to allow variations in the engines (pre-war vs. postwar). I would also suggest that a relatively inexpensive metal/plastic P70 and (M)P54 coach be a target product. Surely they can make and market them cheaper than the resin guys, and fill a hole in the hobby. Bowser should stay away from Diesels and restart production on the G5. I know it represents a great cash investment, but a decent B6, a J1, and a Q2 would make a lot of people happy. Now the fact of the matter is that I teach school, and don't work in the business world, so I may be all wet. I think Bowser has a strong place in the market and can continue to compete with the plastic locos. I would rather have something solid in metal for my money, than something in lightweight plastic for about the same. Maybe it's kits that are fading in the hobbiests eyes, and the preference is to get something ready to weather and modify? Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "I've had a wonderful evening, unfortunately, this wasn't it". -Groucho ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 10:26:37 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser bashing In a message dated 11/23/01 7:35:43 AM Central Standard Time, joeandrews1@yahoo.com writes: << I know that they don't stand up to the more modern products now available, >> Except in pulling power! Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 10:27:21 EST Subject: [PRR] Results-kits In a message dated 11/22/01 10:04:33 PM Central Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes (re the Bachmann K4) : << I think that the next release is the "prewar" version, and unless I'm totally mistaken it will again be released with the 110P70 tender (no stoker). >> I keep hearing they are going to upgrade this loco. Will they give it the correct driver diameter? Right now it looks like a freight loco rather than a high-wheel passenger loco. I have a prewar version on order, but may spend the money on a helix humper for my old Bowser which I will spruce up so I can haul a train. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Results - Kits Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 09:28:25 -0700 Gary, I remember these well...my only problem with these cabs was that they were designed to fit over the existing cab instead of replacing it. And these have long since disappeared from the marketplace... Bill On Fri, 23 Nov 2001 09:28:08 -0500 (EST) mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) wrote: >Bill, > > Remember Mellor? He used to make PRR Cab detail >items. What this >consisted of was a thin Brass sheet overlay with etched >on rivit detail >and add on smoke deflector, cab windows and toe walks. >This is just what >the doctor ordered to update those old metal castings. I >once used these >on an English 0-4-0 Yardbird and a Cary M1a. In my >opinion that is the >way to go to update the 1950 style Bowser stuff. It is a >wonder Bowser >didn't pick up this line when Mellor died. Would have >been a nice seller >for them in their detail line. I no longer have any of >those locos as I >slowly graduated to Brass Locos...Gary > > > > > >Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical >Items and Art >Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > >PRR Loco Pics: >http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > >& > >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html >and...... > >PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > >http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser bashing Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 10:41:35 -0700 Hmmm....while I tend to agree with most of these comments, I don't understand why you think Bowser should drop the Challenger or other (including a very nice NYC K-11 Pacific) locomotive kits...as long as they sell, keep them in the line. I would agree that zamac was not a great choice in boiler material, but at least (for now) the boiler castings are crisp and clean... Variations can be presently modeled the same way as the PRR did them...either set (pre or post beauty treatment) can be done by the proper addition of parts... While we are telling Lee how to run Bowser, why dosen't he simply combine his three (of four) seperate lost wax casting lines into one? That would make life simpler for dealers and modelers alike... And a good (but not great) P-70 is currently available in plastic from ECW (since I believe that the Bachmann cars are a blatant rip off of the ECW cars I cannot endorse them)...in several different variations to boot! Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 13:12:53 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Northumberland Station Greetings to Dayna and the List This is a recent photo showing the structure in its current role as a restaurant, with an appendage added to the side facing the track, but it's a start: http://www.west2k.com/papix/northumberlandprr.jpg FYI, Dan West maintains an excellent site with photos of hundreds of stations in Pennsylvania and Ohio, with links to other sites that cover certain other states. You can find the Pennsylvania database page at: http://www.west2k.com/pastations/pastations.htm Dan Cupper --------------------------------------------------- DWa9975062@aol.com wrote: > > Sorry if some of you receive multiples of this question as I have posted it > to several lists. Can anyone direct me to some photos and/or drawings of the > Northumberland Station either on the net or maybe in some of the many Pennsy > books? > Thanks in advance, > Dayna > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JRobb123@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 17:42:33 EST Subject: [PRR] Bowser Bashing Good Afternoon, If I may take this opportunity to throw my 2 cents into the ring I agree that Bowser should invest in updating the mechanisms and offer enhanced detailing options. Bowser should also keep the non Pennsy line. I firmly believe that these improvements will be, in the long run, financially advantageous as well as returning the Bowser name to the esteem that it once commanded in the HO locomotive kit field. Locomotive kit building has given me, and many others, a great deal of satisfaction, I intend to continue building them. I have built all the Bowser kits and run them much more than any "RTR" locomotive that I own for the sheer pleasure of seeing something that I built run. At the present time I do not believe that the detailing offered with a Bowser loco can compare with many "RTR" locos, I would like to see Bowser change that. As a final note I challenge anyone to find a 2 cylinder HO scale steamer that will out pull a Bowser Decapod. Thanks for listening. Sincerely, Joe Robbins ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Rwo1361@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 18:35:30 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: Bowser --part1_130.50b317f.29303742_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to see Bowser make kits of RTR models of MP-54 cars or for that matter any company that wants to make money. I though when Bowser make all those cabin cars they hit the jack-pot. I know I got all the different ones they make and I sure I'm not the only one. --part1_130.50b317f.29303742_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would like to see Bowser make kits of RTR models of MP-54 cars or for that matter any company that wants to make money. I though when Bowser make all those cabin cars they hit the jack-pot. I know I got all the different ones they make and I sure I'm not the only one.  

--part1_130.50b317f.29303742_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 18:48:15 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Bowser upgrades Joe, list, The biggest single improvement (as always, just my opinion) Bowser could make would be to make a can motor and flywheel standard (ie include the Alliance Locomotive motors in their kits). Otherwise, I think Bowser engines run quite well. The K4s has a longer wheelbase than prototype; it bothers some folks, but doesn't bother me. As a contrast, the Bachmann K4s has a correct wheelbase, but the drivers are smaller than prototype; pick your poison....grin! If the valve gear could be made more delicate and lacy looking without compromising strength and durability, I'd be very happy. I should note that I move a lot more than most people, and I'd rather err on the side of durability than have an engine sustain damage during a move. I wouldn't mind brake gear if it was plastic and idiot proof, either. As far as details go, I consider the Bowser superdetail kits a good starting point, and not an end in and of themselves. I'll use the K4s kit as an example. It includes a superheater damper, which I don't need for my era (1948-52), but doesn't include a mechanical lubricator, which all stoker fired K4s engines should have (all but a very few K4s engines had them on the left; there are photos of a mechanical lubricator on the right side of a couple of K4s engines). I have made detail changes on every engine I've ever owned (RTR and kit); some for the fun of it, and others to get closer to the prototype. Between photos and the Bowser & PSC catalogs, I've found that just about all the detail I'm comfortable with can be found and added to a model. Doug --- JRobb123@aol.com wrote, in part: > > If I may take this opportunity to throw my 2 > cents into the ring I agree that Bowser should invest in updating the mechanisms and offer enhanced > detailing options....Locomotive kit building has given me, and many others, a great deal of satisfaction....At the present time I do not > believe that the detailing offered with a Bowser loco can compare with many "RTR" locos, I would like to see Bowser change that..... > > Sincerely, > Joe Robbins __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 22:43:17 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Crazed Chicago routings of Panhandle trains + reefers at Mike Tower In a message dated 11/21/01 10:49:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, ELM2 writes: << Rick, I was always under the impression that CG-8 was a stock movement. Perhaps it was both (priority movement)?>> Ed, I'm not sure-- I can't locate the truth in my resources-on-hand. I am pretty sure that CG-8 picked up and set out blocks in Columbus. BTW, assuming CG-8 is a stock train instead of an icer, does this mean all the Chicago stock trains rode the Panhandle east in this period? Or just stock out of Chicago 59th Street? More BTW - Lately, I've been offered a rumor that some Panhandle trains to and from 59th Street actually were routed Bernice - Colehour - 55th Street - EC - 59th Street to avoid all the grade crossings (and commuter traffic conflicts at these crossings) on the Panhandle between Dolton and 59th Street. If true, this would mean that Panhandle freight traffic ran for a stretch on the Fort Wayne main and then left it again. I never got to railfan most of this Panhandle line in town (a risky enterprise?), but my impression is that it did hurt for grade separation. Can't confirm the rumor, but get out your ETT and count all the interlockings/crossings -- definitely an opportunity to accept (and create) delays. << There was an ice facility at Canton Ohio also.>> How large was it? There had been a couple of ice facilities on the Fort Wayne (probably Fort Wayne, Canton, Pittsburgh/Alleghany City), but the story went that the big ice facility in Columbus could ice full trains eastbound via either Chicago or St. Louis. Supposedly, the big crew at the upgraded Columbus ice house would allow the other plants to be semiretired. Remember, this is stories -- I'm looking for documentation to back them up or refute them. A Story I Can Verify... One thing we know - by 1981-83, the eastbound reefers (now mechanical) were on the Fort Wayne, in trainload quantities, and were temperature-checked and serviced by an ex-FGE mechanic during a stop at Mike Tower. Mike guarded the crossing of the Wabash in downtown Fort Wayne, standing at the site of Fort Wayne Shops between the east throat of the PRR station and the west throat of the PRR engine terminal. Conrail management had experimented with doing away with this FGE service job, but too many reefer loads turned to garbage by the time they reached the next checkpoint. This poor soul was laid off for just long enough for the company to turn in his FGE refrigeration service truck to Excelsior Truck Leasing. When his job was restored, and he started back to work, the only vehicle available was a Conrail-blue truck with MDT on the door. Rising above this studied insult, our man went back to "chasing reefer trains" -- he'd sometimes let me ride along in the truck. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95 Refill any ink cartridge for less! Includes black and color ink. http://us.click.yahoo.com/XwUZwC/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 22:43:17 EST Subject: [PRR] Crazed Chicago routings of Panhandle trains + reefers at In a message dated 11/21/01 10:49:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, ELM2 writes: << Rick, I was always under the impression that CG-8 was a stock movement. Perhaps it was both (priority movement)?>> Ed, I'm not sure-- I can't locate the truth in my resources-on-hand. I am pretty sure that CG-8 picked up and set out blocks in Columbus. BTW, assuming CG-8 is a stock train instead of an icer, does this mean all the Chicago stock trains rode the Panhandle east in this period? Or just stock out of Chicago 59th Street? More BTW - Lately, I've been offered a rumor that some Panhandle trains to and from 59th Street actually were routed Bernice - Colehour - 55th Street - EC - 59th Street to avoid all the grade crossings (and commuter traffic conflicts at these crossings) on the Panhandle between Dolton and 59th Street. If true, this would mean that Panhandle freight traffic ran for a stretch on the Fort Wayne main and then left it again. I never got to railfan most of this Panhandle line in town (a risky enterprise?), but my impression is that it did hurt for grade separation. Can't confirm the rumor, but get out your ETT and count all the interlockings/crossings -- definitely an opportunity to accept (and create) delays. << There was an ice facility at Canton Ohio also.>> How large was it? There had been a couple of ice facilities on the Fort Wayne (probably Fort Wayne, Canton, Pittsburgh/Alleghany City), but the story went that the big ice facility in Columbus could ice full trains eastbound via either Chicago or St. Louis. Supposedly, the big crew at the upgraded Columbus ice house would allow the other plants to be semiretired. Remember, this is stories -- I'm looking for documentation to back them up or refute them. A Story I Can Verify... One thing we know - by 1981-83, the eastbound reefers (now mechanical) were on the Fort Wayne, in trainload quantities, and were temperature-checked and serviced by an ex-FGE mechanic during a stop at Mike Tower. Mike guarded the crossing of the Wabash in downtown Fort Wayne, standing at the site of Fort Wayne Shops between the east throat of the PRR station and the west throat of the PRR engine terminal. Conrail management had experimented with doing away with this FGE service job, but too many reefer loads turned to garbage by the time they reached the next checkpoint. This poor soul was laid off for just long enough for the company to turn in his FGE refrigeration service truck to Excelsior Truck Leasing. When his job was restored, and he started back to work, the only vehicle available was a Conrail-blue truck with MDT on the door. Rising above this studied insult, our man went back to "chasing reefer trains" -- he'd sometimes let me ride along in the truck. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "WaltP" Subject: [PRR] Bowser upgrades/kits Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 23:24:19 -0500 list, Just poking my nose out of the ballast, but what does a "typical" Bowser kit cost? Now add the costs of the superdetail kit and the can motor (flywheel, gear tower and what not), I am of the opinion you are approaching the cost of an inexpensive brass loco (ala Sunset). Speaking from personal experience, I have four kits in various states of completion. I don't hold Bowser accountable for my ineptitude, as I attempted them back when I was in school and my inexperience shows. However my inexperience did not cause the poor quality of the boiler casting, twisted frames or other gremlins I encountered. I would gladly trade all of them for a "decent used" brass Belpaire equipped steamer or two. I applaud their efforts in delivering our prototype cars, but I feel they are falling behind in their offerings in their locomotive stable. I wonder how many Bowser loco kits were bought by modelers such as myself, never to turn a driver in revenue service? The reason I am sounding off, is because so many of you are "experienced craftsmen" I felt that a comment from one of the hangers ons was appropriate. Getting ready to dodge the clinkers, Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 00:49:25 EST Subject: [PRR] Bowser Many of us remember that Bowser (originally English) was the rescuer of the old Penn Line PRR kits & RTR locos - with "Pennsy" rubber stamped on the tender - the cast metal boilers were a logical progression from Lionels, and brought lots of us into HO in the 50's and sixties. - Until the relatively recent release of the A-5 switcher and the G-5 ten wheeler the only true Bowser locos were the non PRR types, still inventoried. I've been away from HO for a long time, but hasn't Bowser also added the former Varney Northern, the "Old Lady" consolidation and the "Casey Jones" ten wheeler (only relation to KC Jones was the wheel arrangement) Did they ever make a re-run of the Reading Crusader - that had come and gone - and was "parts only" even by the time I was buying Penn Line locos (look for the intertwined PL in the oval builder's plate) in the early 1960's Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 08:43:14 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser Bashing From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Let me throw my 2¢ worth in here. The train store I patronize hates it when I place an order to Bowser. Bowser personnel have been rude on the phone to them and seem to take their time filling an order. I'm told Walthers will not carry Bowser in its catalogue because of the "Bowser attitude." Earlier this year I ordered 3 H2a hoppers from the 8th series. These are supposed to be new numbers. They arrived and I discovered the three were numbered same as hoppers in the 7th series. I called Bowser and told them of this. Send them back and we'll replace them, they said. I did so. The replacement hoppers also had the same numbers as hoppers in the 7th series. I called again. Send them back. I did. Nothing further until I discovered a credit for the hoppers on my credit card. This cost me time and postage, which would be OK, except that I never received an explanation of what happened. I suspect that the 8th series was never made, and leftover 7th series was repackaged as 8th. Whatever happened, one would think Bowser would at least send a letter saying "Sorry for the time and aggravation. We goofed." If this is true on a broad scale (and I'm not saying it is), Boswer needs to work on its customer relationships at the same time it upgrades its models. Regarding the models, my main experience is the I-1. There are so many things to correct on this model it would take a couple of pages to list all of them. A few: the feedwater heater hole in the boiler is too far forward; the under cab braces shouldn't be there; the driving wheels are not scale distances apart; the location for the muffler is incorrect. On and on and on. The good thing about this is that in the process of trying to make the engine right, I have learned a lot about how an I-1 was put together. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: JRobb123@aol.com >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Cc: Joseph.Robbins@hanscom.af.mil >Subject: [PRR] Bowser Bashing >Date: Fri, 23 Nov, 2001, 16:42 > > Good Afternoon, > > If I may take this opportunity to throw my 2 cents into the ring I > agree that Bowser should invest in updating the mechanisms and offer enhanced > detailing options. Bowser should also keep the non Pennsy line. I firmly > believe that these improvements will be, in the long run, financially > advantageous as well as returning the Bowser name to the esteem that it once > commanded in the HO locomotive kit field. Locomotive kit building has given > me, and many others, a great deal of satisfaction, I intend to continue > building them. I have built all the Bowser kits and run them much more than > any "RTR" locomotive that I own for the sheer pleasure of seeing something > that I built run. At the present time I do not believe that the detailing > offered with a Bowser loco can compare with many "RTR" locos, I would like to > see Bowser change that. As a final note I challenge anyone to find a 2 > cylinder HO scale steamer that will out pull a Bowser Decapod. Thanks for > listening. > > Sincerely, > Joe Robbins > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser bashing Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 10:15:57 -0600 And overall performance. A properly constructed and tuned Bowser is second to none. -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com] Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 9:27 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser bashing In a message dated 11/23/01 7:35:43 AM Central Standard Time, joeandrews1@yahoo.com writes: << I know that they don't stand up to the more modern products now available, >> Except in pulling power! Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser Bashing Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 10:30:42 -0600 The one time I had a problem with an special order from Bowser they promptly corrected it. -----Original Message----- From: Donald E. Harper, Jr [mailto:harperd@tamug.tamu.edu] Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 8:43 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser Bashing Let me throw my 2¢ worth in here. The train store I patronize hates it when I place an order to Bowser. Bowser personnel have been rude on the phone to them and seem to take their time filling an order. I'm told Walthers will not carry Bowser in its catalogue because of the "Bowser attitude." Earlier this year I ordered 3 H2a hoppers from the 8th series. These are supposed to be new numbers. They arrived and I discovered the three were numbered same as hoppers in the 7th series. I called Bowser and told them of this. Send them back and we'll replace them, they said. I did so. The replacement hoppers also had the same numbers as hoppers in the 7th series. I called again. Send them back. I did. Nothing further until I discovered a credit for the hoppers on my credit card. This cost me time and postage, which would be OK, except that I never received an explanation of what happened. I suspect that the 8th series was never made, and leftover 7th series was repackaged as 8th. Whatever happened, one would think Bowser would at least send a letter saying "Sorry for the time and aggravation. We goofed." If this is true on a broad scale (and I'm not saying it is), Boswer needs to work on its customer relationships at the same time it upgrades its models. Regarding the models, my main experience is the I-1. There are so many things to correct on this model it would take a couple of pages to list all of them. A few: the feedwater heater hole in the boiler is too far forward; the under cab braces shouldn't be there; the driving wheels are not scale distances apart; the location for the muffler is incorrect. On and on and on. The good thing about this is that in the process of trying to make the engine right, I have learned a lot about how an I-1 was put together. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: JRobb123@aol.com >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Cc: Joseph.Robbins@hanscom.af.mil >Subject: [PRR] Bowser Bashing >Date: Fri, 23 Nov, 2001, 16:42 > > Good Afternoon, > > If I may take this opportunity to throw my 2 cents into the ring I > agree that Bowser should invest in updating the mechanisms and offer enhanced > detailing options. Bowser should also keep the non Pennsy line. I firmly > believe that these improvements will be, in the long run, financially > advantageous as well as returning the Bowser name to the esteem that it once > commanded in the HO locomotive kit field. Locomotive kit building has given > me, and many others, a great deal of satisfaction, I intend to continue > building them. I have built all the Bowser kits and run them much more than > any "RTR" locomotive that I own for the sheer pleasure of seeing something > that I built run. At the present time I do not believe that the detailing > offered with a Bowser loco can compare with many "RTR" locos, I would like to > see Bowser change that. As a final note I challenge anyone to find a 2 > cylinder HO scale steamer that will out pull a Bowser Decapod. Thanks for > listening. > > Sincerely, > Joe Robbins > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 12:32:03 -0500 Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser etc Just wanted to raise a general question here; I haven't had much recent experience with HO steam locomotives, but will want to get into them if I can be convinced that they will run all right on my mostly-hand-laid track. (I was not having much success with the performance of diesels either until they modern generation of diesels, e.g. Kato and Atlas, arrived; the performance of these units is just great, and if steam can be made to perform comparably it'll be great too.) The question: which if any of the available steam locomotives have sprung drivers, and does this matter? Time was when every product review in the magazines mentioned this; they never do, anymore. At one time, my impression was that brass models generally had sprung drivers, and lower-cost models with Zamac boilers did not. Construction articles for scratchbuilding steam usually include springing the drivers. I kind of cringe when I think of rigidly-coupled, unsprung drivers trying to run over minor imperfections in the track, and the whole locomotive lifting at each bump. Or isn't this a practical problem? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 14:03:06 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Alpha R-1 pantograph repair Hi All, I have just completed my 4th repair on the HO Alpha R-1 pantographs, so I consider myself to be qualified at this point. From what I have heard, all of the pantographs fall apart very quickly. This one was truly held together with the black paint. So, I am making the following offer: I will repair your R-1 pantographs for $50.00 plus all shipping and insurance. This is based on the fact that ALL parts are in new condition and no fabrication of replacement parts needs to be done. I would prefer that no previous repair attempts have been made. I offer a fast turnaround time. This engine was given to me at 12:00 noon yesterday and I finished it today. I can give you references if needed. Please reply to billlane@snip.net if you are interested. Thank You Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Universal Inkjet Refill Kit $29.95 Refill any ink cartridge for less! Includes black and color ink. http://us.click.yahoo.com/XwUZwC/MkNDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Alpha R-1 pantograph repair Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 14:03:06 -0500 Hi All, I have just completed my 4th repair on the HO Alpha R-1 pantographs, so I consider myself to be qualified at this point. From what I have heard, all of the pantographs fall apart very quickly. This one was truly held together with the black paint. So, I am making the following offer: I will repair your R-1 pantographs for $50.00 plus all shipping and insurance. This is based on the fact that ALL parts are in new condition and no fabrication of replacement parts needs to be done. I would prefer that no previous repair attempts have been made. I offer a fast turnaround time. This engine was given to me at 12:00 noon yesterday and I finished it today. I can give you references if needed. Please reply to billlane@snip.net if you are interested. Thank You Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: rla0220@enter.net Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 14:52:59 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/09/01 I also have an autographed copy of the book when he was in altoona railfest several years back. In conservation with him he was to come out with another one and be at the rail fest , was it last year?, anyway he never showed up. Any one know him or what happened? Please inform us if anyone knows. Thanks Rich ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 13:46:11 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser etc From: "William J. Ayers" John, Yes, every brass steamer I have ever seen has sprung drivers, and I think it is a definite plus. The springs do improve its running on uneven track, and adding extra weight in the boiler will increase the springs effectiveness. Of course, this also improves the pulling power. Some brass steam engines are pathetically light. Needless to say that excellent trackwork is a must. The one problem I have experienced is that the longer the driver wheel base is, they can short out on some of the turnouts (#6 Micro Engineering in particular, no real problems with Shinohara). Of all my brass steamers (10), they run very well on Atlas flex and since I converted all of them to DCC, their performance has dramatically improved. Love to watch my Q2 crawl! I'm currently running only one unsprung steamer, a Bowser K4, and yes, it does bob around when it encounters bumps, which gives it more of a toy-like appearance when compared to my brass. But it has never derailed as a result of slight unevenness in the track. Be nice if it were sprung, but the real thing didn't have the smoothest ride either! Otherwise, it runs just fine. (And it is more satisfying to watch an engine run knowing I put it together and detailed it, in spite of its blemishes.) So, John, take the plunge into steam and I guarantee you won't regret it. It will add a whole new dimension to your empire. Bill Ayers > From: bobsin@nac.net > Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 12:32:03 -0500 > To: > Subject: RE: [PRR] Bowser etc > > Just wanted to raise a general question here; I haven't had much > recent experience with HO steam locomotives, but will want to get > into them if I can be convinced that they will run all right on my > mostly-hand-laid track. (I was not having much success with the > performance of diesels either until they modern generation of > diesels, e.g. Kato and Atlas, arrived; the performance of these > units is just great, and if steam can be made to perform > comparably it'll be great too.) > > The question: which if any of the available steam locomotives have > sprung drivers, and does this matter? Time was when every > product review in the magazines mentioned this; they never do, > anymore. At one time, my impression was that brass models > generally had sprung drivers, and lower-cost models with Zamac > boilers did not. Construction articles for scratchbuilding steam > usually include springing the drivers. > > I kind of cringe when I think of rigidly-coupled, unsprung drivers > trying to run over minor imperfections in the track, and the whole > locomotive lifting at each bump. Or isn't this a practical problem? > > John Bobsin > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 13:43:19 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] HO plastic steam with sprung drivers John, list, I don't have experience with rail smaller than code 83 rail, and I've never handlaid track. I have never had tracking or slipping problems with Bowser steamers (probably due to an excellent factor of adhesion). I can tell you about some of the mass produced HO steam that has sprung drivers. There are probably more; I own the ones I'll write about below. The Athearn Genesis USRA light Mike has sprung drivers. The recent production Bachmann K4s engines have sprung center drivers. I'm interested in using Code 55 flextrack for industrial spurs; please tell us about your experiences with tracking and so on as you progress with your layout. Doug __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 14:08:58 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser upgrades/kits Walt, list, You are probably not far off the mark as far as the cost factor goes (especially if you pay list price), especially for the Bowser M1/M1a/M1b; it probably does make more sense to go brass for that engine (and perhaps others). As far as steam kits go, there is a steep learning curve if there isn't anyone to help you through the hurdles. No one in my family was mechanically inclined, and I made a lot of mistakes (and still do). I went from building plastic model airplanes and freight car kits to attempting an MDC PRR Prarie when I was 16 (in 1986). Things did not turn out well. I tried again in 1988 with a Bowser PRR H9s, which ran decently primarily because I didn't paint the running gear. My A5s of 1992 was a disaster initially, and it wasn't until 1994 when I built my G5s that I had a reliable, strong steam engine that I'd built myself. I have since rebuilt my early engines and they now run nicely based on what I've learned over the years. Some of my many lessons learned (I'm sure Gary Mittner and Don Harper will have many more to add): Flash is the enemy of a smooth running drive train and can appear in the most unlikely places. I polish frames, rods, and valve gear with fine sandpaper to take off any rough edges that cause binds (and great frustration to the neophyte). Don't paint side rods, drivers, or valve gear on your first few kits; you may introduce binds with paint in the wrong place. Secure crankpin screws in place with loctite (preferred) or CA (what I use because it's handy). Short circuits can appear in the most unlikely places; electrical tape on the inside of the boiler is a good idea. A lot depends on how highly you value your sanity; persistence is usually a good thing, but not if it drives you up a wall. I used a lot of 4 letter words the first time I assembled my A5s. I stripped her to the frame a few years later, cleared off all of the thickly applied paint and polished her rods. She ran nicely after that, and even better when I installed the (then) Alco Products can motor. In retrospect, I should not have begun with an MDC PRR Prarie because of the valve gear (leaving the prototypical issues completely out of this particular posting). Binds in valve gear and rods are the most challenging to track down and eliminate. Nowadays when I build a kit, I add one component at a time, test it, then add another. It does take me a lot of time to build a steam locomotive kit, but going slowly reduces the chance to make mistakes; I got cocky with my A5s and added pretty much everything at once and I mistook valve gear binds for running gear binds. I like nothing better than a running steam engine, and I hope this helps you with yours! Doug --- WaltP wrote: > list, > Just poking my nose out of the ballast, but what > does a "typical" Bowser kit > cost? Now add the costs of the superdetail kit and > the can motor (flywheel, > gear tower and what not), I am of the opinion you > are approaching the cost > of an inexpensive brass loco (ala Sunset). > > Speaking from personal experience, I have four kits > in various states of > completion. I don't hold Bowser accountable for my > ineptitude, as I > attempted them back when I was in school and my > inexperience shows. However > my inexperience did not cause the poor quality of > the boiler casting, > twisted frames or other gremlins I encountered. I > would gladly trade all of > them for a "decent used" brass Belpaire equipped > steamer or two. > > I applaud their efforts in delivering our prototype > cars, but I feel they > are falling behind in their offerings in their > locomotive stable. I wonder > how many Bowser loco kits were bought by modelers > such as myself, never to > turn a driver in revenue service? > > The reason I am sounding off, is because so many of > you are "experienced > craftsmen" I felt that a comment from one of the > hangers ons was > appropriate. Getting ready to dodge the clinkers, > > Walt Prusick __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 17:12:11 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser Bashing From: Jerry Britton On 11/24/01 9:43 AM, Donald E. Harper, Jr at (harperd@tamug.tamu.edu) wrote: > Earlier this year I ordered 3 H2a hoppers from the 8th series. These are > supposed to be new numbers. They arrived and I discovered the three were > numbered same as hoppers in the 7th series. I called Bowser and told them > of this. Send them back and we'll replace them, they said. I did so. The > replacement hoppers also had the same numbers as hoppers in the 7th series. > I called again. Send them back. I did. Nothing further until I discovered > a credit for the hoppers on my credit card. This cost me time and postage, > which would be OK, except that I never received an explanation of what > happened. I suspect that the 8th series was never made, and leftover 7th > series was repackaged as 8th. Whatever happened, one would think Bowser > would at least send a letter saying "Sorry for the time and aggravation. We > goofed." > I have ordered, and received, 8th series H-21a's for customers. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 17:23:56 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Rail sizes, handlaid track, etc Doug asked about experience with smaller rail sizes, and with handlaid track. I have a lot of Code 70 handlaid track, and some Code 70 flex track (Shinohara). I probably would have used Code 83 if had been widely available when I started. I use Code 100 flextrack in non- visible areas. IMHO, the lighter the rail, the more chance of vertical variations, so you have to be a lot more careful with roadbed preparation and sanding wood ties if that's how you handlay track. This is basically Code 70 versus Code 100. Over the years I have learned to be more careful with the ties and roadbed before laying the rail, so quality has improved I think. A few things you might not think about: one is watching carefully that one rail is not higher than the other, except as planned e.g. on banked curves, and in any case being sure that there are not sudden variations in side-to-side tilt. This can be especially severe on curves and grades. I have a spiral, 28 and 30 inch radius roughly, laid on Homasote on top of wood spline roadbed, using Code 100 rail. I couldn't figure out why even diesels were derailing at odd places, when the track was clearly in gauge. Turned out there were such sudden changes in relative rail elevation; lots of paper shim under the flextrack has virtually eliminated the problem. Similarly, make sure that grades are of constant gradient, especially again on curves. One quadrant of my spiral had to be jacked a quarter inch or so to even the grade. I have laid some Code 55 rail, hand laid, on sidings, just for effect; it surely does look small! I even had some Code 40 at one time, but it really looks too small . . . and you can't use spikes on the gauge side, since the flanges are about as high as the rail with Code 40! But no problem running on the Code 55. I haven't tried to build a turnout in Code 55, however. I've built lots in Code 70, and most work fine. I did have a lot of trouble with chemically blackened NS rail, handlaid with (steel) spikes; a nasty corrosion problem developed at the rail-spike contact point which then spread along the rail, discoloring it (green) and actually eating it away. Eventually I had to pull up quite a bit of rail, wire-brush it, paint it, and relay it. Relay rail, just like the prototype! (It is possible that I used fabric dye to stain the wood ties; this contains salt, and may be a factor. I have switched to oil-based stains since then. And my humidty level in the basement may have been too high; I run a dehumidifier now.) BTW I solder all feeders to the bottom of the rail as I lay it, so they are essentially invisible from the top. Hope this helps . . . John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 14:32:15 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Disassembling the Athearn Genesis Mikado Hello lists, Most of this post will expand upon the disassembly procedures from the December 1999 Model Railroader review of the Athearn Genesis Mike. As many of you know, I'm somewhat wary of plastic steam because some plastic steamers can be excruciating to maintain. At the same time, I wanted to expand my horizons beyond the steam kits I usually build; more grist for the kitbashing mill. I like the way my Mike (PRR 9630) runs, but I'm thinking about redetailing her to better match the prototype (and I have a nagging desire for another B&O Q3) and I'm considering repainting the engine. I reread the MR directions, which were excellent for removing the cab and upper boiler. I unscrewed the lead truck and set the truck, it's spring, and it's screw aside in a safe place. I popped the cab off the boiler and set it aside as well. I removed the smokebox front and popped the LED wires (one black and one white) free; they seem to be a press fit. Looking at the firebox side, there are two plastic tabs (one per side) that hold the upper boiler and the lower boiler together. I used a jeweler's screwdrive and thumb pressure to release the tabs. Lift up on the rear of the boiler and slowly slide it forward (I forgot to disconnect stays running from the smokebox to the pilot and will be making new ones from brass). At the same time, lift upwards to clear the rear of the motor/weight assembly and continue to push slowly forward. The upper boiler will be free of the lower boiler and chassis. I needed to go farther and separate the boiler weight/motor combination from the running gear; I would have to paint the running gear if I went ahead with my redetailing project. The motor/weight assembly and the chasis are connected with 4 screws. It's easy to confuse them with the screws holding the halves of the boiler weight/motor assembly in place. There are 2 screws on each side. The forward pair are located 1 and 1/8 inch aft of the forward edge of the boiler weight/motor assembly. The rear pair are located at the rear lower edge of the assembly; they also hold motor wires in place. From my notes, the black motor wire is on the left side and the red wire is on the right side. If you remove the correct 4 screws, the motor/weight assembly should become loose, but not yet free. Disconnect the DCC plug from the tail and slide the lower boiler assembly aft until it pops free of the mounting point on the rear of the chassis. Then, you can slide the tail through the little slot and at that point you should have the motor/weight assembly, the lower boiler, and the chassis completely separated. This whole procedure took about 20 minutes, working slowly; now that I know what to expect, I could do it in less time with no danger of breaking anything. Sagami and Athearn seem to have done a very nice job tooling this engine. I hope this helps some of you get over the challenge imposed by a model with different construction features than what I'm used to. Doug __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser Bashing Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 20:6:16 -0500

I think rtr Pennsy steam would have a much larger demand than the current Bowser kits offered right now. I would venture to guess that the Bowser kits only have a very limited appeal. While just about everyone has the skill to do a good just on a basic roll stock kit, like those offered by Bowser and Accurail, it takes a great deal of skill and time to do even a respectable job on a Bowser kit. My dad, who is an excellent model ship builder and an engineer, could not even get his Bowser 2-8-0 to look respectable compared to my Sunset H9. So while many of you may have turned these metal kits into engines that may come close to the looks of a brass engine, I can say with great confidence that you are a select minority among the over all model train community. Not only do you have to have the general skill of being able to get the thing running, you have to have the skills to add the numerous details to keep it from looking toy-like, and the skill to paint it professionally. The new pl

Eric

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 20:22:04 EST From: JSZARMACH@aol.com Subject: [PRR] GG1 Theft Sometime over the last 2 weeks (before we put the tarp on), someone stole one of the 3 small air hoses that emerge just below the nose door. To do so, they had to use a pipe wrench on the one end, and wrenches on the other end to split open the chain that holds them in place. You can see them missing in this photo: http://www.pjandcompany.com/GG1/11150101.jpg Anyone know where I can find a replacement? Also, I am looking for a replacement for the round lenses near the illuminated number boards. I can reproduce the number boards, but cannot reproduce the round "bulls eye" (fresnel) lenses. I could cut a peice of (flat) plexy glass, but that wouldn't look the same. I'd really like to have the bulls eye (glass) lenses. Anyone know where I can find the lenses or something similar? By the way, I added photos of GG1 4909 being tarped for the winter. It looks quite funny actually. It looks like a big Christmas gift. It can be seen at: http://www.PJandCompany.com/GG1 Look under "restoration updates and photos". Any help is greatly appreciated, --Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 02:11:03 -0800 (PST) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] PRR stock cars Hello, I have some questionss about stock car assigments in 1954. a) On which routes were they used? b) Where were they stored between assigments? c) What were there assigments? d) Would you find many foreign stock cars on the PRR system? Thanks, Geoffrey __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 02:15:36 -0800 (PST) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] Car shops Is it possible to give a list of the different car shops in 1954 owned by the Pennsy and there main tasks? Where they all specialised or did every shop made repairs on all the different classes? I assume Altoona would do repairs on all classes? Thanks, Geoffrey __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JSZARMACH@aol.com Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 09:17:30 EST Subject: [PRR] GG1 Lens and Air Hose --part1_9.1f027e11.2932577a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looking at their website, General Signal looks pretty promising (http://www.generalsignals.com/gsig.html). I didn't get the lens' measurements before we covered the 4909 for the winter. Next spring, I'll get the measurements and call General Signal. Thanks everyone! Anyone know where I could get the air hose? Obviously, the hose itself is not a big deal. It is the connector on the end that is the big deal. I could have one fabricated in a machine shop, but I'd rather not do that. This spring, anything on the outside that can be removed, will be removed (by me) for safekeeping. The 4909 has been stored in the same spot for 10 years without being touched -- so I didn't think people would start stripping it now. I think between painting it, and separating it from the 4917, it is now drawing the attention of "rail fans". Maybe I'll have a fence placed around it. Thanks in advance for your help, --Joe --part1_9.1f027e11.2932577a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Looking at their website, General Signal looks pretty promising (http://www.generalsignals.com/gsig.html). I didn't get the lens' measurements before we covered the 4909 for the winter. Next spring, I'll get the measurements and call General Signal. Thanks everyone!

Anyone know where I could get the air hose? Obviously, the hose itself is not a big deal. It is the connector on the end that is the big deal. I could have one fabricated in a machine shop, but I'd rather not do that.

This spring, anything on the outside that can be removed, will be removed (by me) for safekeeping. The 4909 has been stored in the same spot for 10 years without being touched -- so I didn't think people would start stripping it now. I think between painting it, and separating it from the 4917, it is now drawing the attention of "rail fans". Maybe I'll have a fence placed around it.

Thanks in advance for your help,

--Joe

--part1_9.1f027e11.2932577a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 09:57:15 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] GG1 Theft From: aurora7@juno.com By the way, I added photos of GG1 4909 being tarped for the winter. It looks quite funny actually. It looks like a big Christmas gift. Joe, you didn't know? She is a huge Christmas gift to all of us. Sorry to learn about the thefts, but you have taken a "basketcase" and devoted interminable hours to making her a showpiece for the railfan community. May she be protected the rest of her days, and may those days last forever. Dick Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "I've had a wonderful evening, unfortunately, this wasn't it". -Groucho ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] HH1 model pics Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 14:43:58 -0000 To all, Just finished detailing, painting and weathering the latest addition. The pics of the P2K 2-8-8-2 have been uploaded with a few notes on the modifications and the weathering etc.. Go to: http://www.xclent.clara.net Enter the site and click on the 'HO Scale Locomotives' button .... then the Pennsy Keystone. Regards, John H. Wright, Washington, England. Web sites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and http://www.xclent.clara.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 18:17:30 EST Subject: [PRR] Glass fresnel lenses (clear?) In a message dated 11/25/01 1:10:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Also, I am looking for a replacement for the round lenses near the illuminated number boards. I can reproduce the number boards, but cannot reproduce the round "bulls eye" (fresnel) lenses. I could cut a peice of (flat) plexy glass, but that wouldn't look the same. I'd really like to have the bulls eye (glass) lenses. Anyone know where I can find the lenses or something similar? >> Let me know what the diameter of this lens would be. We have some fresnel lenses in the Jack Fravert collection. Rick Tipton Business manager for the Jack Fravert collection, an estate including builder plates, number plates, railroad hardware, books, paper collectibles, and other railroadiana. Email RickTipton@aol.com Phone 502-228-4997 (8am to 8pm please) Fax 502-426-0089 (for now) Wolf Penn Station 5108 Wolf Pen Woods Drive Prospect, KY 40059-9197 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark T. Evans" Subject: [PRR] X53 and X54 Underframe Question Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 19:58:33 -0800 Dear Listers, I'm looking for information on the crossbearer/crosstie spacing for the underframes of the X53/X53a and X54/X54a boxcars. Unfortunately the X53 and X54-class diagrams at Rob Schoenberg's website [prr.railfan.net] don't have those dimensions. Does anyone have drawings or diagrams that would help me? Thanks. Mark T. Evans Anaheim, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 09:26:22 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Future Society Conventions From: Jerry Britton While the locations of the next three PRRT&HS Conventions has been known for many months, the subsequent two were just announced in the PRRT&HS eNews. For those that don't subscribe...and those who don't read the fine print, here's the schedule: 2002 Camp Hill, Pa. 2003 outside of Philadelphia. Possibly Cherry Hill, N.J. 2004 Cincinnati, Oh. 2005 Camp Hill, Pa. 2006 Camp Hill, Pa. That gives me 3.5 years to get my entire mainline of the Eastern Region (http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layout/) up and running across four levels! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 10:15:35 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Any PRR Fishermen in Central PA Out There? From: Jerry Britton Okay, here's a real stretch... One of the first portions of modeling that will be completed on my layout will be VIEW interlocking with the bridge over Sherman's Creek. It's a six arch bridge with an arch design not unlike that of the Rockville Bridge...with very short piers. First, does anyone have any, or know of any, photos of the bridge taken from water level ON THE SUSQUEHANNA RIVER side of the bridge? Didn't think so! Second, and an even further stretch, are there any fishermen on the list from central Pennsylvania that would be willing to take a photo for me, or take me along on a boat to do so? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:06:59 -0500 Subject: [PRR] N Scale H-21a Hoppers from Bowser-- Getting the Word Out From: Jerry Britton After hearing from Lee English (Bowser) that reservations are not as expected for the forthcoming N scale H-21a, I put out a feeler to the "PRR-N_Scale" list. Turns out many on the list did not know the product had been announced and very few dealers even knew of the product. ("Merchandise Service", being PRR-oriented, has of course been promoting the product for over two months and offers a discount. The URL is http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com) For the masses, here's the skinny: #37400 PRR Class H21a Hopper, Undecorated #37401 PRR Class H21a Hopper, Circle Keystone #37402 PRR Class H21a Hopper, Circle Keystone "Coal Goes To War" #37403 PRR Class H21a Hopper, Shadow Keystone #37404 PRR Class H21a Hopper, "Early Lettering" 12 car numbers are available for each of the four decorated versions. Suggested retail pricing is $12.95 per car. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:16:19 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Any PRR Fishermen in Central PA Out There? On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Jerry Britton wrote: > Okay, here's a real stretch... > > One of the first portions of modeling that will be completed on my layout > will be VIEW interlocking with the bridge over Sherman's Creek. It's a six > arch bridge with an arch design not unlike that of the Rockville > Bridge...with very short piers. > > First, does anyone have any, or know of any, photos of the bridge taken from > water level ON THE SUSQUEHANNA RIVER side of the bridge? http://www.crownover.org/kayakpictures/duncannon-2000-10-01.jpg looks like the river side to me. See http://www.crownover.org/duncannon.asp Warning: this is one of those people who thinks just because "\" works in their URLs in Internet Explorer that it must be correct. You'll need to use IE or copy URLs out of netscape to view anything from this page. > Didn't think so! You thought wrong. :-) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 11:21:09 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Any PRR Fishermen in Central PA Out There? Gah, the echo of my post hasn't come back yet but I think I send the wrong sublink for the bridge photo. In any case: http://www.crownover.org/kayakpictures/duncannon-2000-10-02.jpg definitely shows the upstream bridges *behind* the railroad bridge. And http://www.crownover.org/kayakpictures/duncannon-2000-10-01.jpg http://www.crownover.org/kayakpictures/duncannon-2000-10-03.jpg http://www.crownover.org/kayakpictures/duncannon-2000-10-04.jpg http://www.crownover.org/kayakpictures/duncannon-2000-10-05.jpg http://www.crownover.org/kayakpictures/duncannon-2000-10-06.jpg http://www.crownover.org/kayakpictures/duncannon-2000-10-07.jpg are all the bridge in question (the last one also being in the river) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Norm Bell" Subject: [PRR] Bowser engines and Gla hoppers Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 12:58:00 -0600 I have always enjoyed assembling Bowser engines and the only one I ever had trouble with is an E6s that retains a case of the wobbles in spite of every effort on my part to determine why. That being said They could replace the cast metal boiler with a plastic wrapper that would be much more detailed. They could cast the metal boiler weight as a round casting and cut off as much as was needed for each engine. Most of us have sufficient plastic working skills to be less intimidated by the work required. Metal working is becoming a lost art. I ordered a dozen Gla's and two came without the brake stand shelf for the end of the car. I surmise they were broken off during handling at the factory. You may wish to check and make sure the kits you buy have this detail on the sprue with the slope sheets. Bowser was most courteous when I called last Friday and said they would put them in the mail. Since I don't use McHenry couplers I was surprised to see that the McHenry's inlcuded with the kit had springs like Kadees. Maybe this will make them work better. At least I am willing to give these a chance to succeed. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "TJ LInk" Subject: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 14:39:22 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C17688.237FEA60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Does anyone have any information or know anyone with information and or = photos of the roundhouse, yards or service facilities in Crestline, = Ohio? I live in Galion, Ohio and a few new aquaintences from around = Canton and I went last weekend to photograph the existing structure in = an effort to preserve as much of it photographicly as possible before it = collapses or is torn down. I am also interested in recreating (as much = as possible) in HO scale the roundhouse, service facilities, and part of = the yards. Any help or directions would be greatly appreciated! Also, I = am in a position to arrange visits to the property as I have knowledge = of the owner and he is willing to allow visitors provided that they = provide a release from liability to the owner of injury or such as the = building is rapidly deteriorating. I fear it will not be around much = longer, it is amazing that it has survived this long. Matt Link ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C17688.237FEA60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Does anyone have any information or = know anyone=20 with information and or photos of the roundhouse, yards or service = facilities in=20 Crestline, Ohio? I live in Galion, Ohio and a few new aquaintences from = around=20 Canton and I went last weekend to photograph the existing structure in = an effort=20 to preserve as much of it photographicly as possible before it collapses = or is=20 torn down. I am also interested in recreating (as much as possible) in = HO scale=20 the roundhouse, service facilities, and part of the yards. Any help or=20 directions would be greatly appreciated!  Also, I am in a position = to=20 arrange visits to the property as I have knowledge of the owner and he = is=20 willing to allow visitors provided that they provide a release from = liability to=20 the owner of injury or such as the building is rapidly deteriorating. I = fear it=20 will not be around much longer, it is amazing that it has survived this = long.=20 Matt Link
 ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C17688.237FEA60-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 16:42:57 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Class BM70 --part1_3c.15199401.29341161_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/21/2001 11:43:31 AM Central Standard Time, schlund@cwnet.com writes: > I believe there were plain vanilla BM70 cars, my > belief is based on a memory of having read about them > in the Keystone article you referenced below. I'm out > of town just now and don't have the article in > front of me. > > I believe you are reffering to the Spring 1993 Keystone. Al PS I'm behind in my email so someone may have already provided this info. --part1_3c.15199401.29341161_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/21/2001 11:43:31 AM Central Standard Time, schlund@cwnet.com writes:


I believe there were plain vanilla BM70 cars, my
belief is based on a memory of having read about them
in the Keystone article you referenced below. I'm out
of town just now and don't have the article in
front of me.



I believe you are reffering to the Spring 1993 Keystone.
Al

PS I'm behind in my email so someone may have already provided this info. --part1_3c.15199401.29341161_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AlbertSR@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:34:40 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Results - Kits --part1_b9.175da3ef.29341d80_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/23/2001 7:42:27 AM Central Standard Time, billd@gci-net.com writes: > 2) Better cabs...get rid of those cast metal ones! Two > styles will cover almost all classes of locomotives...the > small metal cab and the older cab as found on Consols and > the E6s... > > Speaking of cabs, what happened to the Mellor line of brass cab conversions? Al --part1_b9.175da3ef.29341d80_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/23/2001 7:42:27 AM Central Standard Time, billd@gci-net.com writes:


2) Better cabs...get rid of those cast metal ones! Two
styles will cover almost all classes of locomotives...the
small metal cab and the older cab as found on Consols and
the E6s...



Speaking of cabs, what happened to the Mellor line of brass cab conversions?
Al --part1_b9.175da3ef.29341d80_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 17:59:33 -0500 From: Dale Dembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio --------------2F3AF6A48123D345BB39C188 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Any thoughts towards stabilizing the building (using federal $$ for preservation) instead of tearing it down? This is certainly a historic PRR structure. TJ LInk wrote: > Does anyone have any information or know anyone with information and > or photos of the roundhouse, yards or service facilities in Crestline, > Ohio? I live in Galion, Ohio and a few new aquaintences from around > Canton and I went last weekend to photograph the existing structure in > an effort to preserve as much of it photographicly as possible before > it collapses or is torn down. I am also interested in recreating (as > much as possible) in HO scale the roundhouse, service facilities, and > part of the yards. Any help or directions would be greatly > appreciated! Also, I am in a position to arrange visits to the > property as I have knowledge of the owner and he is willing to allow > visitors provided that they provide a release from liability to the > owner of injury or such as the building is rapidly deteriorating. I > fear it will not be around much longer, it is amazing that it has > survived this long. Matt Link --------------2F3AF6A48123D345BB39C188 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Any thoughts towards stabilizing the building (using federal $$ for preservation)  instead of tearing it down?  This is certainly a historic PRR structure.

TJ LInk wrote:

Does anyone have any information or know anyone with information and or photos of the roundhouse, yards or service facilities in Crestline, Ohio? I live in Galion, Ohio and a few new aquaintences from around Canton and I went last weekend to photograph the existing structure in an effort to preserve as much of it photographicly as possible before it collapses or is torn down. I am also interested in recreating (as much as possible) in HO scale the roundhouse, service facilities, and part of the yards. Any help or directions would be greatly appreciated!  Also, I am in a position to arrange visits to the property as I have knowledge of the owner and he is willing to allow visitors provided that they provide a release from liability to the owner of injury or such as the building is rapidly deteriorating. I fear it will not be around much longer, it is amazing that it has survived this long. Matt Link
--------------2F3AF6A48123D345BB39C188-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "PennCent" Subject: RE: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 18:13:18 -0500 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C176A6.076B3640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Seems like I'd heard somewhere there were plans to save it, but don't know how far that's come (if at all). Don Narris - Canton, OH (MP 99, PFW&C RR) http://ohiorr.railfan.net -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Dale Dembinski Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 6:00 PM To: TJ LInk Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio Any thoughts towards stabilizing the building (using federal $$ for preservation) instead of tearing it down? This is certainly a historic PRR structure. TJ LInk wrote: Does anyone have any information or know anyone with information and or photos of the roundhouse, yards or service facilities in Crestline, Ohio? I live in Galion, Ohio and a few new aquaintences from around Canton and I went last weekend to photograph the existing structure in an effort to preserve as much of it photographicly as possible before it collapses or is torn down. I am also interested in recreating (as much as possible) in HO scale the roundhouse, service facilities, and part of the yards. Any help or directions would be greatly appreciated! Also, I am in a position to arrange visits to the property as I have knowledge of the owner and he is willing to allow visitors provided that they provide a release from liability to the owner of injury or such as the building is rapidly deteriorating. I fear it will not be around much longer, it is amazing that it has survived this long. Matt Link ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C176A6.076B3640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Seems=20 like I'd heard somewhere there were plans to save it, but don't know how = far=20 that's come (if at all).
 
Don=20 Narris - Canton, OH (MP 99, PFW&C RR)    =20 http://ohiorr.railfan.net
-----Original Message-----
From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com=20 [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Dale = Dembinski
Sent:=20 Monday, November 26, 2001 6:00 PM
To: TJ LInk
Cc:=20 prr-talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Crestline,=20 Ohio

Any thoughts towards stabilizing the building = (using=20 federal $$ for preservation)  instead of tearing it down?  = This is=20 certainly a historic PRR structure.=20

TJ LInk wrote:=20

Does anyone have any information = or know=20 anyone with information and or photos of the roundhouse, yards or = service=20 facilities in Crestline, Ohio? I live in Galion, Ohio and a few new=20 aquaintences from around Canton and I went last weekend to = photograph the=20 existing structure in an effort to preserve as much of it = photographicly as=20 possible before it collapses or is torn down. I am also interested = in=20 recreating (as much as possible) in HO scale the roundhouse, service = facilities, and part of the yards. Any help or directions would be = greatly=20 appreciated!  Also, I am in a position to arrange visits to the = property as I have knowledge of the owner and he is willing to allow = visitors provided that they provide a release from liability to the = owner of=20 injury or such as the building is rapidly deteriorating. I fear it = will not=20 be around much longer, it is amazing that it has survived this long. = Matt=20 Link
------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C176A6.076B3640-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 19:02:28 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Results of 5th Annual Modelers Needs Survey (LONG) In a message dated 11/26/01 5:50:05 PM Central Standard Time, ELDEN.GATWOOD@ttisg.com writes: << Was is correct. Because of the demise of the body, the kit is no longer available, nor that of the X26c/X26f. I wish they were still around. I have a bunch more to be added, and don't look forward to scratchbuilding the remainder! >> I have one unbuilt kit, which if I recall consists of a C&BT body with some resin parts and styrene to modify. I had purchased some of the Accurail 40-footers in the Silver Merchandise scheme. I haven't studied the rivet patterns (fortunately, they are at least closer to scale than the old days, hence not all that noticable except in closeup) nor have I miked the car to X29 dimensions, but I wonder if it would be a good starting point to work from. Right now it is a train filler at the club for me. As I recall, one of the many unique features of the X29 versus the rest of the world's 40-footers is the closeness of the trucks to the ends of the car, so any rebuild needs a new frame/bolster arrangement. Awaiting being blown out of the water on this idea, Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:53:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Cabin Cars Bennett, Lists, Bennett, I thought of you first but will ask the lists as well. In my continuing projects of building 1:29th PRR Cabin Cars, I come up with this question. On the porch decks of the N8, was this finished with a layer of Diamond Tread? I believe it was as a "restored" N8 I seen recently has this applied. I am curious as to what the N5c Class has. Is this Diamond Tread also or is this a Grated surface. Bennett, You have an N5c, correct? Remember what your car decks are? Were these once Diamond Tread too and conveted to Grating by PC or CR....Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:53:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Cabin Cars Bennett, Lists, Bennett, I thought of you first but will ask the lists as well. In my continuing projects of building 1:29th PRR Cabin Cars, I come up with this question. On the porch decks of the N8, was this finished with a layer of Diamond Tread? I believe it was as a "restored" N8 I seen recently has this applied. I am curious as to what the N5c Class has. Is this Diamond Tread also or is this a Grated surface. Bennett, You have an N5c, correct? Remember what your car decks are? Were these once Diamond Tread too and conveted to Grating by PC or CR....Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Break free. Great American Smokeout http://us.click.yahoo.com/3vN8tD/.pSDAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 21:46:29 -0600 Subject: [PRR] Prr Talk digest From: Beth Caples I would lik to get the Digest version of PRR TALK Thank you ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 07:13:18 -0500 From: "Gluckman, Robert" Subject: [PRR] Photos of the Northumberland Station Needed Harold Russell, who does many of the drawings of buildings and equipment for Model Railroader magazine, has agreed to consider producing scale drawings of the Northumberland PRR station. He can measure the existing building but, as the station has been modified to serve as a restaurant, Harold needs photographs of the station as it was before the restaurant additions. Can anyone suggest where I might find good photos of all sides of the original station? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 05:17:46 -0800 (PST) From: CHUCK S Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser Bashing Twice I have had to get help from Bowser customer service and had 100% satisfaction both times, in fact better than i expected ( new kit vs missing parts). they went the extra mile for me . --- Jerry Britton wrote: > On 11/24/01 9:43 AM, Donald E. Harper, Jr at > (harperd@tamug.tamu.edu) wrote: > > > Earlier this year I ordered 3 H2a hoppers from the > 8th series. These are > > supposed to be new numbers. They arrived and I > discovered the three were > > numbered same as hoppers in the 7th series. I > called Bowser and told them > > of this. Send them back and we'll replace them, > they said. I did so. The > > replacement hoppers also had the same numbers as > hoppers in the 7th series. > > I called again. Send them back. I did. Nothing > further until I discovered > > a credit for the hoppers on my credit card. This > cost me time and postage, > > which would be OK, except that I never received an > explanation of what > > happened. I suspect that the 8th series was never > made, and leftover 7th > > series was repackaged as 8th. Whatever happened, > one would think Bowser > > would at least send a letter saying "Sorry for the > time and aggravation. We > > goofed." > > > I have ordered, and received, 8th series H-21a's for > customers. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com > Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop > Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad > and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site > "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists > "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through > "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet > endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank > you!----------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Photos of the Northumberland Station Needed Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 09:12:03 -0600 Robert--There is an excellent photo of one side of the Northumberland station at http://gelwood.railfan.net/other/prr/prr-north-sta-s.jpg Please by all means encourage Harold Russell to do the drawings! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: [PRR] P-70KR and P-70GSR Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 18:36:28 +0000 PRR-Listers: Were the P-70KR and P-70GSR coaches assigned to passenger trains system wide or were they assigned to only a part(s) of the PRR system? Did they regularly go to Chicago and St. Louis? Were there certain trains that these cars were known to be on? Thanx in advance! Ted Andrews _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 13:52:35 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] P-70KR and P-70GSR From: Jerry Britton On 11/27/01 1:36 PM, Ted Andrews (ted_andrews@msn.com) wrote: > Were the P-70KR and P-70GSR coaches assigned to passenger trains system wide > or were they assigned to only a part(s) of the PRR system? Did they > regularly go to Chicago and St. Louis? Were there certain trains that these > cars were known to be on? > As of 1954 there were some in east-west service. The consist listings I have at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/hbg_092854.html are based on the New York Division "Makeup of Trains" from 1954. Both P70kr and P70gsr make appearances. As an example, you can find both on train #25, The Metropolitan/Afternoon Steeler. HOWEVER, at quick glance I did not notice any going west of Pittsburgh. Most were on New York-Pittsburgh trains. The north-south trains did not originate/terminate in New York, so they are not included in the consist lists. The consist lists I show for the north-south trains merely show the presence of coaches, or reclining seat coaches. I suspect that many of these were P70kr or P70gsr. Key word "suspect". But there were definitely "some" on the east-west trains. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:43:25 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] P-70KR and P-70GSR The P70 KRs were originally assigned to the Jeffersonian and the Trail Blazer. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Ted Andrews wrote: > PRR-Listers: > > Were the P-70KR and P-70GSR coaches assigned to passenger trains system wide > or were they assigned to only a part(s) of the PRR system? Did they > regularly go to Chicago and St. Louis? Were there certain trains that these > cars were known to be on? > > Thanx in advance! > > Ted Andrews ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 10:52:55 -0500 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Bowser I certainly will add my voice to those clamoring for MP54s. One advantage for Bowser, or anyone else who might consider them, is that they are a prototype "shorty". They could be lettered for PRR, LIRR, PC, B&M, at least, and coach, combine, baggage, and baggage RPO versions could be offered. Perhaps they could be manufactured with end window punch-outs or inserts so both the MU and the "steam" version could be built. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== However, it must be pointed out that PRR-specific models are losing adherents as time marches on :-(( I heard that Bowser took a bath on the cabin cars and swore never again to do one. I was surprised (pleasantly) to see the GLa's. Rwo1361@aol.com wrote: > I would like to see Bowser make kits of RTR models of MP-54 cars or > for that matter any company that wants to make money. I though when > Bowser make all those cabin cars they hit the jack-pot. I know I got > all the different ones they make and I sure I'm not the only one. > -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 11:32:02 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Vondruska Subject: [PRR] Bowser loco repower kits To all: I understood from traffic on this list some time ago that someone was going to put the Alco Bowser flywheel repower kits back into production. Does anyone know their status. Tom V. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 14:43:32 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Op session 12/15 @ 1:30 PM Listers, I will be attempting to have the first op session on the Cornwall Railroad since October last year. I am implementing a car card system and a dispatcher. I need at least 5 more people to have the session. I am a member of the CallBoard SIG on Yahoogroups and use the Digitrax DCC system. Please contact the Callboard Administrator if you are interested and a member. If you are not a member, email me for more info at caseyj@igateway.com. Of the 5 regular local crew members three are not interested in prototypical operations and do not want to attend. The session will be held December 15th at 1:30 PM to accomodate out-of-towners that want to attend. I live near Harrisburg, Pa. and I can supply a digital map from Interstates 78, 83, and 81 around the Harrisburg area to my door to those that wish to attend. Since this is the "shakedown cruise" for this new op method, I can predict that it will be fairly rocky but I will try to keep things going unless there is a major systems failure. If you use Digitrax I would appreciate if you can bring a throttle, I cannot provide enough for all participants. If you have one of the Radio Shack 16 channel radios, please bring that as well. The session should last about three hours and I provide coffee and sodas (outside the layout area). Any help will be greatly appreciated. The layout is not a "magazine material" layout, and it has areas still under construction, but I have built it around local freights and switching. Out of five members of my local crew, only three are interested in prototypical operation. I cannot have an op session without outside help. I hope to hear from anyone interested, Nick Kulp http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Bowser and S2 Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 14:36:51 -0500 Anyone have scale drawings for the S2? I have been toying with the feasibility of kitbashing one. On Bowser, I'm not a static model collector. I run my trains hard. Bowser locos hold up and run better than any of my brass or plastic locos. I have several with extra superdetail, and some brass, that sit on the sidelines so people can look and ogle at the detail. In a moving train on a layout, you can't tell whether or not all the small detail is there, especially with good weathering. NOTHING runs like a Bowser! I have built about 25 I1s over the last 20 years, most with superdetails and correct piping, some in batches of 6 at a time. They go together very fast after the first one. I've done the same with the H's and L's too. Let me give three cheers for Bowser!!! Lew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" To: Cc: Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 10:52 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Bowser > I certainly will add my voice to those clamoring for MP54s. One > advantage for Bowser, or anyone else who might consider them, is that > they are a prototype "shorty". They could be lettered for PRR, LIRR, > PC, B&M, at least, and coach, combine, baggage, and baggage RPO versions > could be offered. Perhaps they could be manufactured with end window > punch-outs or inserts so both the MU and the "steam" version could be > built. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > > > However, it must be pointed out that PRR-specific models are losing > adherents as time marches on :-(( I heard that Bowser took a bath on > the cabin cars and swore never again to do one. I was surprised > (pleasantly) to see the GLa's. > > Rwo1361@aol.com wrote: > > > I would like to see Bowser make kits of RTR models of MP-54 cars or > > for that matter any company that wants to make money. I though when > > Bowser make all those cabin cars they hit the jack-pot. I know I got > > all the different ones they make and I sure I'm not the only one. > > > > -- > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 14:44:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser loco repower kits From: Jerry Britton On 11/28/01 2:32 PM, Tom Vondruska (prrlineswest@yahoo.com) wrote: > > I understood from traffic on this list some time > ago that someone was going to put the Alco Bowser > flywheel repower kits back into production. Does > anyone know their status. > Happened a good six months ago. The new company name is Alliance Locomotive. They are available from Merchandise Service and other dealers. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:37:19 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] new ETTs available If you visit http://prr.dementia.org/documents/documents.html you'll find 2 new employee timetables: Philadelphia Region Zone D Timetable #2 (10/28/1956) Pittsburgh Region Timetable #1 (4/29/1956) The latter is a hefty book and so is the PDF, weighing in at 30 megs. The web server is capable of byte-serving PDF so if you just want to page through you can load a page at a time. There's also a list of what's in my todo pile if you have requests at: http://prr.dementia.org/documents/list -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 18:03:58 EST Subject: [PRR] Wilmington part 3 The third and final part of the Wilmington Station is in the process of being packaged and shipping is starting to take place. This is a large section but will complete the Wilmington Complex. It includes the center section with the track layout all the under the track walls, canopies, stairways, baggage elevators and more. I thank all of you who have been waiting patiently for the last part of your kits. I haven't completed the assembly of our display model yet but hope to have it finished for the Amherst Train show the first weekend in February. I hope to have our new website up in the next few weeks and included will be more photos that people have contributed of the station and drawings to aid in assembly and painting. Dayna Trainstuff LLC ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chuck Friedlein" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Bowser (MP54s) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 20:22:02 -0500 Don't forget that SEPTA had them and painted them red, white & blue. Of course manufacturers would have to get Septa's permission to do them that way, but having said that, it adds another road name to the list of possibles. Chuck Friedlein ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew S. Miller" > I certainly will add my voice to those clamoring for MP54s. One > advantage for Bowser, or anyone else who might consider them, is that > they are a prototype "shorty". They could be lettered for PRR, LIRR, > PC, B&M, at least, and coach, combine, baggage, and baggage RPO versions > could be offered. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 21:23:43 -0800 From: "Douglas C.Jones" Subject: [PRR] Joining the list I am Doug Jones PRRT&HS 524and owner of Schuylkill Div. Pennsy Steam Number plate,builder plate,tender plate and bank trust plate brass engravings in HO and O scale. The class, construction number, and build date, and works plant all agree with the number on the keystone or round plate. these are beautiful engravings and are readable in HO. The catalog offers a selection of numbers in all classes from A to T. dougjonesSPF schuylkill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 21:33:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Joining the list Hi Doug, Boy are you a welcomed member here!!!! Your products were mentioned here plenty of times. Mosly on how to get them. Now that you are here it will be easy to make contact with you.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 22:00:05 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio From: "William J. Ayers" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --MS_Mac_OE_3089829605_388841_MIME_Part Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit T J, Dale, Don, List, Just got back from a short business trip. It's nice to see someone else interested in Crestline!!! I have been doing research on the Crestline engine facilities over the past several years and have quite a lot of info, photos, track chart dated 1946, several other plans, etc. I am currently in the process of putting together a web site on the engine facilities and yards. It will be a little while yet before it is ready to put on line, but when it is ready, I will announce it on this list. There has indeed been several attempts to have the roundhouse placed on the National Register and on the Endangered List of the National Trust for Historic Places. All these applications, unfortunately, have been turned down. The most often sited reason is that too much of the place no longer exists, however, they all say it is a place worthy of preservation. I don't think any of us on this list can disagree with that statement. Federal $$ can come only after it has been designated as an historic place, and there is some sort of plan for its future. Within the past two or three months, the owner and one of his employees (who moved into the roundhouse in temporary living quarters) went there and started to clean it up, tidy up the grounds, and moved in a small herd of goats to help "digest" some of the debris. The most resent word I received from Crestline (couple weeks ago) is that the goats are gone, and the guy who moved in there has moved out. Just what this means, I'm not sure, but it seems to me that it is not an encouraging bit of news. One of the plans for it's future is to establish both a restaurant and museum in what was the powerhouse. Given the news of a couple weeks ago, I don't know the current status on these plans either. The masonry is in a state of deterioration, windows are gone, and the concrete roof is not healthy, but the steel framework is still structurally sound. If this building is to be preserved at all, there needs to be some action taken SOON. As far as I know, there are no plans to tear it down. This structure is a most unique one and certainly deserves more attention if it is to survive at all. It is the only PRR roundhouse of this design still standing, in fact the ONLY roundhouse of this design anywhere. And it is a PRR design. I, too, plan to build an HO layout based on Crestline as much as space will permit. I would be happy to share what I have and know. Please contact me off list if you are interested in more info. I can also put you in contact with Ron Widman, who did a slide show about Crestline at the last PRRT&HS annual meeting. Bill Ayers From: "TJ LInk" Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 14:39:22 -0500 To: Subject: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio Does anyone have any information or know anyone with information and or photos of the roundhouse, yards or service facilities in Crestline, Ohio? I live in Galion, Ohio and a few new aquaintences from around Canton and I went last weekend to photograph the existing structure in an effort to preserve as much of it photographicly as possible before it collapses or is torn down. I am also interested in recreating (as much as possible) in HO scale the roundhouse, service facilities, and part of the yards. Any help or directions would be greatly appreciated! Also, I am in a position to arrange visits to the property as I have knowledge of the owner and he is willing to allow visitors provided that they provide a release from liability to the owner of injury or such as the building is rapidly deteriorating. I fear it will not be around much longer, it is amazing that it has survived this long. Matt Link --MS_Mac_OE_3089829605_388841_MIME_Part Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio T J, Dale, Don, List,

Just got back from a short business trip.

It's nice to see someone else interested in Crestline!!! I have been doing = research on the Crestline engine facilities over the past several years and = have quite a lot of info, photos, track chart dated 1946, several other plan= s, etc. I am currently in the process of putting together a web site on the = engine facilities and yards. It will be a little while yet before it is read= y to put on line, but when it is ready, I will announce it on this list.

There has indeed been several attempts to have the roundhouse placed on the= National Register and on the Endangered List of the National Trust for Hist= oric Places. All these applications, unfortunately, have been turned down. T= he most often sited reason is that too much of the place no longer exists, h= owever, they all say it is a place worthy of preservation. I don't th= ink any of us on this list can disagree with that statement. Federal $$ can = come only after it has been designated as an historic place, and there is so= me sort of plan for its future.

Within the past two or three months, the owner and one of his employees (wh= o moved into the roundhouse in temporary living quarters) went there and sta= rted to clean it up, tidy up the grounds, and moved in a small herd of goats= to help "digest" some of the debris. The most resent word I recei= ved from Crestline (couple weeks ago) is that the goats are gone, and the gu= y who moved in there has moved out. Just what this means, I'm not sure, but = it seems to me that it is not an encouraging bit of news. One of the plans f= or it's future is to establish both a restaurant and museum in what was the = powerhouse. Given the news of a couple weeks ago, I don't know the current s= tatus on these plans either.

The masonry is in a state of deterioration, windows are gone, and the concr= ete roof is not healthy, but the steel framework is still structurally sound= . If this building is to be preserved at all, there needs to be some action = taken SOON. As far as I know, there are no plans to tear it down.

This structure is a most unique one and certainly deserves more attention i= f it is to survive at all. It is the only PRR roundhouse of this design stil= l standing, in fact the ONLY roundhouse of this design anywhere. And it is a= PRR design.

I, too, plan to build an HO layout based on Crestline as much as space will= permit. I would be happy to share what I have and know. Please contact me o= ff list if you are interested in more info. I can also put you in contact wi= th Ron Widman, who did a slide show about Crestline at the last PRRT&HS = annual meeting.

Bill Ayers


From: "TJ LInk" <chef@richnet.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 14:39:22 -0500
To: <prr-talk@dsop.com>
Subject: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio


Does anyone have any information or know any= one with information and or photos of the roundhouse, yards or service facil= ities in Crestline, Ohio? I live in Galion, Ohio and a few new aquaintences = from around Canton and I went last weekend to photograph the existing struct= ure in an effort to preserve as much of it photographicly as possible before= it collapses or is torn down. I am also interested in recreating (as much a= s possible) in HO scale the roundhouse, service facilities, and part of the = yards. Any help or directions would be greatly appreciated!  Also, I am= in a position to arrange visits to the property as I have knowledge of the = owner and he is willing to allow visitors provided that they provide a relea= se from liability to the owner of injury or such as the building is rapidly = deteriorating. I fear it will not be around much longer, it is amazing that = it has survived this long. Matt Link


--MS_Mac_OE_3089829605_388841_MIME_Part-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GPandelios@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 23:33:29 EST Subject: [PRR] Can you identify these cars? Folks, MTH has come out with a 5 car set of 70' O-gauge PRR Heavyweight passenger cars. The link is: http://www.mth-railking.com/bounce/catpop.htm Despite the photo at this URL they are tuscan colored in the hardcopy catalog. The descriptions are very sketchy. My question to you is: What kind and number of cars are depicted here? Many thanks, George Modeling the Weirton, WV-Steubenville, OH area from 1948-1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Ted Andrews" Subject: Re: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 13:46:34 +0000 Bill and the List: It is kind of unusual that the roundhouse was turned down to be on the Register of Historic Places. In Indiana, there is a very aggressive attempt to do that with many buildings and structures. In my personal and professional opinion, I think that Indiana's State Historic Preservation Officer (SHPO) has really overdone it to the point that no work with Federal funding can be done on a historic property without his consent.....what has resulted is a "my WAY or the highway" attitude. I other words, no work gets done and the structure sits and deteriorates further. To bad that Crestline is not in Indiana. It would definitely be on the Historic Register.....you would not be able to do anything to it but it would still be on the register. :P At any rate, I am looking forward in seeing the Crestline web page up and running. I am modeling the the Fort Wayne Line from Fort Wayne to Valparaiso, Indiana. The major yard that I will have will be Fort Wayne but it will be more generic. I will blend attritubes of other yards such as Crestline, 55th Street (Chicago) and Fort Wayne to make this yard more versitile in operations. Ted Andrews >From: "William J. Ayers" >To: TJ LInk , >Subject: Re: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio >Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 22:00:05 -0600 > >T J, Dale, Don, List, > >Just got back from a short business trip. > >It's nice to see someone else interested in Crestline!!! I have been doing >research on the Crestline engine facilities over the past several years and >have quite a lot of info, photos, track chart dated 1946, several other >plans, etc. I am currently in the process of putting together a web site on >the engine facilities and yards. It will be a little while yet before it is >ready to put on line, but when it is ready, I will announce it on this >list. > >There has indeed been several attempts to have the roundhouse placed on the >National Register and on the Endangered List of the National Trust for >Historic Places. All these applications, unfortunately, have been turned >down. The most often sited reason is that too much of the place no longer >exists, however, they all say it is a place worthy of preservation. I don't >think any of us on this list can disagree with that statement. Federal $$ >can come only after it has been designated as an historic place, and there >is some sort of plan for its future. > >Within the past two or three months, the owner and one of his employees >(who >moved into the roundhouse in temporary living quarters) went there and >started to clean it up, tidy up the grounds, and moved in a small herd of >goats to help "digest" some of the debris. The most resent word I received >from Crestline (couple weeks ago) is that the goats are gone, and the guy >who moved in there has moved out. Just what this means, I'm not sure, but >it >seems to me that it is not an encouraging bit of news. One of the plans for >it's future is to establish both a restaurant and museum in what was the >powerhouse. Given the news of a couple weeks ago, I don't know the current >status on these plans either. > >The masonry is in a state of deterioration, windows are gone, and the >concrete roof is not healthy, but the steel framework is still structurally >sound. If this building is to be preserved at all, there needs to be some >action taken SOON. As far as I know, there are no plans to tear it down. > >This structure is a most unique one and certainly deserves more attention >if >it is to survive at all. It is the only PRR roundhouse of this design still >standing, in fact the ONLY roundhouse of this design anywhere. And it is a >PRR design. > >I, too, plan to build an HO layout based on Crestline as much as space will >permit. I would be happy to share what I have and know. Please contact me >off list if you are interested in more info. I can also put you in contact >with Ron Widman, who did a slide show about Crestline at the last PRRT&HS >annual meeting. > >Bill Ayers > > >From: "TJ LInk" >Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2001 14:39:22 -0500 >To: >Subject: [PRR] Crestline, Ohio > > >Does anyone have any information or know anyone with information and or >photos of the roundhouse, yards or service facilities in Crestline, Ohio? I >live in Galion, Ohio and a few new aquaintences from around Canton and I >went last weekend to photograph the existing structure in an effort to >preserve as much of it photographicly as possible before it collapses or is >torn down. I am also interested in recreating (as much as possible) in HO >scale the roundhouse, service facilities, and part of the yards. Any help >or >directions would be greatly appreciated! Also, I am in a position to >arrange visits to the property as I have knowledge of the owner and he is >willing to allow visitors provided that they provide a release from >liability to the owner of injury or such as the building is rapidly >deteriorating. I fear it will not be around much longer, it is amazing that >it has survived this long. Matt Link > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N2ICV" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Bowser (MP54s) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:12:47 -0500 Lets not forget the P-RSL. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Bowser (MP54s) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:01:09 -0800 From: "John Cooper" Nor Penn Central > ---------- > From: N2ICV[SMTP:N2ICV@home.com] > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 9:12 AM > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Bowser (MP54s) > > Lets not forget the P-RSL. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:12:13 -0500 From: "H.&S." Subject: [PRR] MP-54 Hi all.... Hmmmm I don't know how many would sell if Bowser were to make them, but Washington Terminal Co. had a MP-54 coach that they used for employees during the 1980's. I think it was painted dark blue with white lettering and was numbered No. 100 or 101. I have a picture of it on disc here somewhere that some one on the list sent me. I think it had been formerly one of the cars used on the Baltimore-Washington commuter locals. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:14:34 -0500 From: "H.&S." Subject: [PRR] MP-54 again... Hi again.... did anyone mention the Long Island version of these cars? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:34:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54 --part1_4e.2915584.29382e27_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List, Do not recall the vendor's name but they make a resin car body kit for the MP-54 in HO scale. They also offer the unit with the baggage compartment. Evan --part1_4e.2915584.29382e27_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PRR List,

 Do not recall the vendor's name but they make a resin car body kit for the MP-54 in HO scale.  They also offer the unit with the baggage compartment.

Evan --part1_4e.2915584.29382e27_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] small chain Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 20:02:42 -0500 Hi All, I am in need of a large supply of small chain, preferably 40 links per inch on a reel and not blackened. I did a search for Builders in Scale, but did not find anything for them directly. The link was disabled. Are they still in business? Other suppliers had B I S items listed, but I am not sure of their in stock status. Does anyone know of another supplier? I cannot afford approximately $2.00 per foot retail. Please reply to billlane@snip.net Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] RTR with trainphone antennae Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 20:29:39 -0500 List: Has anyone else noticed the fine print in the MRC ad for HO RTR F7's in the December "Model Railroader"? The PRR model shown has the trainphone antennae, and the ad states that these are included on the models lettered PRR! Alas, the pilot is wrong and the lift rings are missing from the front, but I believe new ground has been broken here. Speaking of MP54's, I believe Walthers last new traction kit offered was for a PRR MP54. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 20:33:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] RTR with trainphone antennae Gregg, Are you referring to the HO versions? I saw them at a train show several months back. Yes it is a step in the right direction but if they are going to make that step, do it right. The masts didn't look prototype at all. Cal Scale has them beat by a mile.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages: Photos, Models, Historical Items and Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CENTGA@aol.com Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 20:40:26 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] RTR with trainphone antennae --part1_42.1e41ad29.29383d8a_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gregg, I saw the ad, It was a good move for MRC, too bad the model is no better than what it is. Maybe Athearn will take notice. Todd Horton --part1_42.1e41ad29.29383d8a_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gregg, I saw the ad, It was a good move for MRC, too bad the model is no better than what it is. Maybe Athearn will take notice. Todd Horton --part1_42.1e41ad29.29383d8a_boundary-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 21:14:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54 From: aurora7@juno.com On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:34:47 EST RDG2124@aol.com writes: > PRR List, > > Do not recall the vendor's name but they make a resin car body kit > for the > MP-54 in HO scale. They also offer the unit with the baggage > compartment. > And the price is about $50/unit. That's too expensive for a passenger car that needs to be purchased in amounts of 6 or so, to create the passenger train it is going to represent. Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "I've had a wonderful evening, unfortunately, this wasn't it". -Groucho ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 19:49:40 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: Bowser (MP54s) --- N2ICV[SMTP:N2ICV@home.com] said: > Lets not forget the P-RSL. --- John Cooper wrote: > Nor Penn Central and I add: 1) Ligonier Valley RR had one, and borrowed/rented several for special events at Idlewild Park. 2) Once, sometime during WW2 saw a P-RSL MP-54 in a Pittsburgh to Derry commuter train. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 22:58:52 -0600 From: Greg Johnson Subject: [PRR] Train Phone - Athearn Genesis I suggest we all contact Athearn and suggest that future PRR genesis F units come with trainphone antennae. The fantastic genesis F unit plus antennae would be a terrific combination that probably would be an even bigger seller. Regards, Greg Johnson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:30:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] RTR with trainphone antennae In a message dated 11/29/01 7:50:00 PM Central Standard Time, CENTGA@aol.com writes: << Maybe Athearn will take notice. >> I don't mind putting the antennae on. Let em stop putting the dual forward facing airhorns on, ala the first Globe F7 50 years ago. I hate having to patch and paint the roof. Interesting that the otherwise average (but I am grateful anyway for it ) P1K Erie-built has the Pennsy-unique horn. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "N2ICV" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 11/30/01 Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:11:05 -0500 --- John Cooper wrote: > Nor Penn Central and I add: 1) Ligonier Valley RR had one, and borrowed/rented several for special events at Idlewild Park. 2) Once, sometime during WW2 saw a P-RSL MP-54 in a Pittsburgh to Derry commuter train. ---------------------------------------------------------- Mike > wrote: The P-RSL MP-54's also worked the LIRR . There were only 17 steel cars . I like to have more info on the MU cars used by the P-RSL , I Have By Rail to the Boardwalk, it tells me that all were cut up in november 1949. What were there #'s , when were they built and were? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Tom Mahon Subject: [PRR] Hobby Shop In Vienna Austria Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 09:00:21 -0500 Good Morning, Sorry if this does not meet list requirements. I tried the Kalmbach directory and it is down due to a possible hack. My daughter is in Vienna and trying hard to please her modeling Dad. Anyone have an address or a line on a hobby shop in Vienna?? Thanks, Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 05:59:49 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] MP-54 Evan, list, The company is Trainstuff LLC. Their web address is www.trainstuffllc.com. I haven't purchased any MP54s, but I did purchase their 90F82 tender for my I1sa, and it's very nicely done. Doug --- RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > PRR List, > > Do not recall the vendor's name but they make a > resin car body kit for the > MP-54 in HO scale. They also offer the unit with > the baggage compartment. > > Evan > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 06:17:25 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] MP54 non-electrified cars on NY&LB Hello list, All of this talk about MP54 cars has piqued my interest. Would non-electrified MP54s have on on the New York and Long Branch in the late 1940s? I know about the electrified MP54s that ran to South Amboy, but I'm curious about the passenger car versions running behind steam at this relatively late date. I have a fair amount of P70 coaches stashed away, but I'm looking for a little variety. Also, the shorter MP54s would look better on the short radius curves I'm currently limited to. I would consult my reference books, but they're currently in transit, and I won't be able to look at my grandfather's copy of the Unique New York & Long Branch until next week. As always, thanks in advance. Doug __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] RTR with trainphone antennae Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 09:21:15 -0600 >From what I've seen at the dealer's, something is really wrong with the lettering on the model. The mistake is so great that I would not buy it, and I'm not a real nit-picker. Maybe MRC has subsequently corrected this problem. -----Original Message----- From: Gregg Mahlkov [mailto:mahlkov@gtcom.net] Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 7:30 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] RTR with trainphone antennae List: Has anyone else noticed the fine print in the MRC ad for HO RTR F7's in the December "Model Railroader"? The PRR model shown has the trainphone antennae, and the ad states that these are included on the models lettered PRR! Alas, the pilot is wrong and the lift rings are missing from the front, but I believe new ground has been broken here. Speaking of MP54's, I believe Walthers last new traction kit offered was for a PRR MP54. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Nick Kulp" Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:27:20 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Thanks for the help Listers, I have filled the crew quota for my December 15th session. This list and the others that helped meet my needs worked extremely well. If anyone that hasn't sent me a response, but is still interested in joining my sessions, I will create a mailing list for a "Crew Call". I am planning to hold my sessions on the third Saturday of the month. I will send emails out about ten days prior to the session to those people that wish to be on my Crew Calls and that way I will be able to maintain a regular group of operators. The physical size of my layout is fair but the physical size of the aisles and the locations of the areas where work will be performed has a few bottlenecks. This puts a limit of eight people for sessions. As things progress, that number should increase (if the crew doesn't kill or tar and feather me after this session). I want to thank the members that have volunteered to help start the op sessions and I hope they will be an enjoyable success. If you are still interested in joining future sessions I will gladly add your name to the Crew Call. There will be a follow up post on the session's success or failure. Thanks again for the help. Regards, Nick Kulp http://www.igateway.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" Subject: RE: [PRR] Train Phone - Athearn Genesis Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 09:23:00 -0600 Agreed/ -----Original Message----- From: Greg Johnson [mailto:greg1950@swbell.net] Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 10:59 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Train Phone - Athearn Genesis I suggest we all contact Athearn and suggest that future PRR genesis F units come with trainphone antennae. The fantastic genesis F unit plus antennae would be a terrific combination that probably would be an even bigger seller. Regards, Greg Johnson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] RTR with trainphone antennae Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 11:57:18 -0500 Marvin, Greg, and list, My purpose in pointing out the MRC ad was that this is the first time I have seen a trainphone antenna offered on a mass-produced RTR model.. I model in N scale, but am aware that the MRC F7 has many faults..... It sure would be nice though, if Athearn Genesis, Life-Like Proto 2000 and Atlas were to offer units with trainphone antennae in HO, and Atlas, Kato, and Life-Like were to do likewise in N scale. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cadwell, Marvin L" To: "'Gregg Mahlkov'" ; Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 10:21 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] RTR with trainphone antennae > From what I've seen at the dealer's, something is really wrong with the > lettering on the model. The mistake is so great that I would not buy it, > and I'm not a real nit-picker. Maybe MRC has subsequently corrected this > problem. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gregg Mahlkov [mailto:mahlkov@gtcom.net] > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 7:30 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] RTR with trainphone antennae > > > List: > > Has anyone else noticed the fine print in the MRC ad for HO RTR F7's in the > December "Model Railroader"? The PRR model shown has the trainphone > antennae, and the ad states that these are included on the models lettered > PRR! Alas, the pilot is wrong and the lift rings are missing from the front, > but I believe new ground has been broken here. > > Speaking of MP54's, I believe Walthers last new traction kit offered was for > a PRR MP54. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Computer Simulation Programs Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:05:13 -0500 Ladies & Gents, At the risk of starting one of those never ending threads . . . : Has anyone tried any of the following simulation programs? If so, what did you think and what do you recommend? (I finally bit the bullet and bought a new computer - P4 1.4gig Mhz, 40gig hard drive, 512 meg ram, so now I have the room, speed, and sound system.) 1. Train Master 2. Dispatcher 3. Microsoft Train Simulator 4. Others? Any options/extras to be sure to get or to avoid? Thx in advance. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling downtown Williamsport & Renovo PA, WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:15:45 EST From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] RTR with trainphone antennae Greg and All, The addition of the Train phone antenna mast does little to add to the credibility of this toy-ish version of what appears to be and EMD F-unit... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 16:47:56 EST From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] RTR with trainphone antennae Bob and all Unfortunately the Highliner shell was produced with four holes for the horns... A problem but not to diffecult to repair. I have inquired about the antenna mast but, not likely going to happen as the mast are more complicated than the Cal Scale detail sheet shows them as the mast continue down the back of the carbody and then forword towards the rear (engineman's side) truck. To make matters more diffecult the pipe becomes flex conduit at that point. So their thoughts were if they couldn't do it exactly correct then they would elect not to do it at all and rely on me to do the article on the correct placement... I will as time permitts. Just a reminder that they will be doing one more run of the F-unit in this configuartion and them moving on to another version and it looks like a toss up between the phase 2 early version and the phase three version from my polling of wishes... Thanks, Greg Martin Greg Martin > In a message dated 11/29/01 7:50:00 PM Central Standard Time, CENTGA@aol.com > writes: > > << Maybe Athearn will take notice. >> > > I don't mind putting the antennae on. Let em stop putting the dual forward facing airhorns on, ala the first Globe F7 50 years ago. I hate having to patch and paint the roof. Interesting that the otherwise average (but I am grateful anyway for it ) P1K Erie-built has the Pennsy-unique horn. > > Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] Dog house renewed Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 23:38:38 -0000 Added two pics show to show that a new metal doghouse actually has been added to the HH1 2-8-8-2 after the recent posts telling me I'd made a mistake with the choice of a wooden one. http://www.xclent.clara.net/model_locos/hh1-3.htm Not much really ..... probably only of interest to SPFs and dog house fetishists. Now to finish that Bowser / Gem hybrid T1 Regards, John H. Wright, Washington, England. Web sites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and http://www.xclent.clara.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!!