From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Position Light Signals/STOP signal,Red Lenses Date: Fri, 10 Aug 101 18:56:04 -0400 (EDT) David Hopson scribit: > > Position Lights in a heavy fog or heavy rain can be seen BUT it's > hard to make out the aspect of the signal. Yellow lights looks like a > yellow haze in bad weather. "PROCEED,APPROACH,MEDIUM CLEAR" all start to > look the same in bad weather. Dave, though this is true, it is only true because PRR signals were ALL yellow EXCEPT for those two red lights. However, on other roads, where you could have red in 2 or 3 positions, your rule no longer is helpful. > A RED light in bad weather can only mean STOP. This, unfortunately, is not the case. Red lamps are included in the following signal aspects: Stop Stop and proceed Restricting Medium Clear Limited Clear Slow Approach Medium Approach Of course, there is one final rule that always applies: if you can't tell what the signal is supposed to be, stop the train if you have to and check it. And if it is imperfectly displayed, you must assume the most restrictive aspect from what remains displayed. Failure to observe this rule resulted in a wreck in the Canadian Prairies not all that long ago. > Pennsy must have relized this for them to change the color of the > lenses. I think in 1952, the Pitts. Div. was the first to get the RED > lenses treatment because of the heavy fog and snow. It's also in one of > the Pitts Div. ETT from the early 50s as a General Order. John already commented on the removal of the red lenses from OVERBROOK. The systematic implementation of red lenses was limited to locations west and north of Harrisburg. There were exceptions, however (e.g. Dayton; anyone know of others?) Interlocking home signals got the treatment; automatic signals did not. (Did manual block territories get red lenses? Sandusky Branch? Zanesville Branch?) -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Detectors in 1950's Date: Fri, 10 Aug 101 19:22:30 -0400 (EDT) Jerry Britton scribit: > > If there's not a prototypical/era way to do it, I may stick with the verbal > detectors and call it "modeler's license". You could instead ring a bell, and pretend it's the annunciator bell at the next block station ("tower") down the line. Or if you have a station nearby, you could do a train arrival announcement over the station's loudspeakers. Of course, this would be prototypical for passenger trains only. For freights ... ? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Detectors in 1950's Date: Fri, 10 Aug 101 19:24:29 -0400 (EDT) Andrew S. Miller scribit: > > Jerry, > > How about just having an approach lighted signal come on? Jerry's territory would include approach-lighted signals west of Harrisburg, but not east thereof. At least not prototypically. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] Position Light Signals Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 04:14:03 +0000 Red lights were installed on the Main Line between Overbrook and Paoli in the 50's. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (David Hopson) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 00:46:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Position Light Signals: Stop Signal/Red Lenses Hello Todd, In the early 1950s,PRR changed the "STOP" position aspect to a "STOP" with red lenses with the center bulb out. This only applies to HOME signals and INTERLOCKING signals. PRR's automatic and "A.P."(approach-lit) signals were not changed I think the Pittsburgh Div. was the first place this was tried. RED is a whole lot easier to see in the fog or heavy rain. YELLOW aspects can be confusing in the rain. I rode an E44 out of Greenwich Yard long hood forward in the rain. I couldn't see the end of the locomotive! I couldn't see the signals either. Dave Hopson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 08:31:25 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Position Light Signals: Stop Signal/Red Lenses In a message dated 7/31/01 11:54:16 PM Central Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: << RED is a whole lot easier to see in the fog or heavy rain. YELLOW aspects can be confusing in the rain. >> I have to respectfully ask if you have some documentation for this statement. For one, I was under the impression that the position light system was used because of the opposite fact, i.e., the yellow was more visible. For two, I might have a color problem with the ol' cones and rods personally, but I could absolutely see the clear "Proceed" better than the red "Stop" on the signals at Hammond-Whiting-Colehour on Conrail, snow, rain, fog or shine. In fact it was so noticable to me the first time that I wondered which idiots decided to replace a good system. I will check my videos again for the effect in fog to be sure, as I haven't been there for a couple years, but that is the way I remember it. One reason I remember it is that the signals there are such that you always know when a train is coming on two of the three tracks.They are normally red and then approach lighted "Proceed". I can be sitting in my car, with four signals lighted red that I can barely see and a switch to "Proceed" I will pick up almost instantly with peripheral vision in a rear view mirror, even if I am reading. I can see where, assuming you can see the signal at all, the red is certainly less ambiguous for a stop. YMMV, of course. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (David Hopson) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 09:49:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Position Light Signals/STOP signal,Red Lenses Hello Bob, Well the proof I have is based on ex-PRR employees accounts. I live across the street from a PRR/Penn Central engineman. I went on a few cab rides with him when I was a kid and he would teach me how to read PL signals. Position Lights in a heavy fog or heavy rain can be seen BUT it's hard to make out the aspect of the signal. Yellow lights looks like a yellow haze in bad weather. "PROCEED,APPROACH,MEDIUM CLEAR" all start to look the same in bad weather. A RED light in bad weather can only mean STOP. Pennsy must have relized this for them to change the color of the lenses. I think in 1952, the Pitts. Div. was the first to get the RED lenses treatment because of the heavy fog and snow. It's also in one of the Pitts Div. ETT from the early 50s as a General Order. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 08:12:56 -0700 Subject: RE: [PRR] Track assignment Hi, Thanks everyone for the illuminating responses. Lots of good info and lots of good leads for more. - Claus > I'm doing a bit of layout design, and > I've got a question regarding PRR design > practice. > > In areas of four-track main line (in particular > I'm thinking of the trackage on the former New > York division, which is now the present-day > the NE corridor route, say in New Jersey between > Newark & Elizabeth...) were the track directions > normally assigned such that the two > westbound tracks were adjacent, and the two > eastbound tracks were adjacent, in this manner: > > <============ > <============ > ============> > ============> > > or were they normally intermixed, > in this manner: > > <============ > ============> > <============ > ============> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 11:36:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Position Light Signals/STOP signal,Red Lenses In a message dated 8/1/01 8:57:47 AM Central Daylight Time, zootowerprr@webtv.net writes: << Position Lights in a heavy fog or heavy rain can be seen BUT it's hard to make out the aspect of the signal. Yellow lights looks like a yellow haze in bad weather. >> I concede that that might be a problem, i.e., the ambiguity. I also just had a thought that, although I am looking at the signals from a quarter mile away, at a greater distance (such as that required to slow or stop at train) it would be worse. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Position Light Signals Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 09:52:14 -0700 From: "John Cooper" Red lenses were installed only at Overbrook, not Bryn Mawr nor Paoli. I'm pretty sure this was the only installation anywhere in electrified territory. Removed in the early/mid 70s. John > ---------- > From: E. Mike[SMTP:evillmike@hotmail.com] > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 9:14 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Position Light Signals > > Red lights were installed on the Main Line between Overbrook and Paoli > in > the 50's. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Position Light Signals/STOP signal,Red Lenses Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 11:41:40 -0700 From: "John Cooper" > ---------- > From: Bobspf@aol.com[SMTP:Bobspf@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 8:36 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Position Light Signals/STOP signal,Red Lenses > > I concede that that might be a problem, i.e., the ambiguity. I also > just had > a thought that, although I am looking at the signals from a quarter > mile > away, at a greater distance (such as that required to slow or stop at > train) > it would be worse. > > The engineer should never have to discern an indication from a quarter mile away. The signal he's looking at doesn't govern until he's past it. The previous signal he passed is what governs up until that point. Thus the engineer only has to discern the indication when he's right up on it. And of course the cab signals would clear up any confusion too. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (David Hopson) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 14:54:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Position Light Signals/ RED stop aspect The Norfolk & Western ( Pennsy's cousin) also had the RED stop aspect on thier PL signals. I might be wrong but I think N&W changed thier signals in the late 40s before PRR. I have a movie from the early 50s at SLOPE with a J1 Texas type underneath SLOPE's home signals and the stop aspect is red on the PL. To be honest, I think the B&O's PL signals are the easiest to read. B&O's lenses were bigger and brighter than PRR's "cone type" lenses. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 14:16:38 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: K4s Question From: John Sheets Gary > Is this > curve measured in degrees or is it measured in feet. If the actual > radius is known please inform me and supply a source this can be found > in. Evidently this info is needed for trackage at the Railroad Memorial > Museum in Altoona. Seems they are making plans for the K4... I too am not aware of any published info, BUT all of the PRR ETT's list engine restrictions/or speed allowed on industrial or secondary trackage. While I only have them for Eastern Region, NY-Phila for the late 1940's, if they can find one for Altoona area from the time period the K-4's were still in service, they can see where they were permitted or restricted, and if any of those tracks are still around, it may help them. They are listed under SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS, ENGINE RESTRICTIONS John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (David Hopson) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 15:17:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Postion Light Signals Mr Cooper, Traveling down the Trenton Cutoff at 60mph and a mile of trailers behind you, looking at a PL signal from a quarter mile is not too far off. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 15:24:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR EP-22's Lists, Once again the shops at Juniata Terminal turned out another masterpiece. Mr. Levin and crew took no time restoring Conrail E8 back to PRR #5711. Looks like twins sitting with sister E8 #5809. Reminds me of looking at a Don Ball's color photo in his many books. Bennett has thanked many people for this effort. I think Bennett deserves the biggest Thank You. For if his purchase of these Locos did not happen, many of us of the younger generation would have missed out in seeing a little of the Pennsy brought back to life. Hope to be there in Altoona to see them in person. Be sure to check these out at http://www.prrths.com/Phila_PRR5711_07_22_01.htm Thanks to Steve also for documenting these too...... Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 15:24:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR EP-22's Lists, Once again the shops at Juniata Terminal turned out another masterpiece. Mr. Levin and crew took no time restoring Conrail E8 back to PRR #5711. Looks like twins sitting with sister E8 #5809. Reminds me of looking at a Don Ball's color photo in his many books. Bennett has thanked many people for this effort. I think Bennett deserves the biggest Thank You. For if his purchase of these Locos did not happen, many of us of the younger generation would have missed out in seeing a little of the Pennsy brought back to life. Hope to be there in Altoona to see them in person. Be sure to check these out at http://www.prrths.com/Phila_PRR5711_07_22_01.htm Thanks to Steve also for documenting these too...... Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 15:29:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: K4s Question From: Jerry Britton On 8/1/01 3:16 PM, John Sheets (john@mpa-inc.com) wrote: >> Is this >> curve measured in degrees or is it measured in feet. If the actual >> radius is known please inform me and supply a source this can be found >> in. Evidently this info is needed for trackage at the Railroad Memorial >> Museum in Altoona. Seems they are making plans for the K4... > > I too am not aware of any published info, BUT all of the PRR ETT's list > engine restrictions/or speed allowed on industrial or secondary trackage. > > While I only have them for Eastern Region, NY-Phila for the late 1940's, if > they can find one for Altoona area from the time period the K-4's were still > in service, they can see where they were permitted or restricted, and if any > of those tracks are still around, it may help them. > > They are listed under SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS, ENGINE RESTRICTIONS > My "Keystone Crossings" site has a 1955 Middle Division ETT available for download. See http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/ett.html ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Position Light Signals Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 13:25:53 -0700 From: "John Cooper" Speed and train length don't matter. There is no compromise in safety if you can't discern a signal until you're right on it. (Though there may be some additional premature gray hair for engineer) Signal spacing is calculated from stopping distances, brake application latency, maximum authorized speed, etc, and does not include a quarter mile "pre-discernment" of the indication. John > ---------- > From: David Hopson[SMTP:zootowerprr@webtv.net] > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 12:17 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Postion Light Signals > > > Mr Cooper, > Traveling down the Trenton Cutoff at 60mph and a mile of trailers > behind you, looking at a PL signal from a quarter mile is not too far > off. > Dave > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 15:41:58 -0500 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR EP-22's Gary Mittner wrote: > > Lists, > > Once again the shops at Juniata Terminal turned out another > masterpiece. Mr. Levin and crew took no time restoring Conrail E8 back > to PRR #5711. Looks like twins sitting with sister E8 #5809. Reminds me > of looking at a Don Ball's color photo in his many books. Bennett has > thanked many people for this effort. I think Bennett deserves the > biggest Thank You. For if his purchase of these Locos did not happen, > many of us of the younger generation would have missed out in seeing a > little of the Pennsy brought back to life. Hope to be there in Altoona > to see them in person. Be sure to check these out at > http://www.prrths.com/Phila_PRR5711_07_22_01.htm Thanks to Steve also > for documenting these too...... Gary Gary, I couldn't agree more with your sentiments. What's all the more amazing is that Juniata Terminal Company was able to accomplish all this work on both engines within one year's time. Bennett, Eric, Al, Steve and the whole crew deserve our gratitude in the restoration and archiving of these EP-22's. They are one class act. BTW, can you imagine the expressions of the train crews and passengers as they pass JTC and see those twins (with #120 in tow) sitting outside the building? That would be worth a whole page of photos. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: prrbill Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 15:41:58 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] PRR EP-22's Gary, I couldn't agree more with your sentiments. What's all the more amazing is that Juniata Terminal Company was able to accomplish all this work on both engines within one year's time. Bennett, Eric, Al, Steve and the whole crew deserve our gratitude in the restoration and archiving of these EP-22's. They are one class act. BTW, can you imagine the expressions of the train crews and passengers as they pass JTC and see those twins (with #120 in tow) sitting outside the building? That would be worth a whole page of photos. Bill Morlitz ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 17:08:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: K4s Question (minimum radius) Jerry, John, Good idea about the time tables. I have a webtv so I can't open the kind of files you have Jerry. Answer could be in there somewhere. This is what I have found out so far by just reading books. The question was, what is the minimum radius a K4 could handle? I found out that Horseshoe Curve is laid out at a 9° curvature. We know that is pretty sharp. No problem for a K4 though. We know the westbound departing track out of Penn Station in Pittsburgh was 12°. This was so sharp it prohibited M1 Locos. So I am assuming a K4 could handle a curve up to about 15° Does this sound correct? I wouldn't want to say this for certain to the track layers and find out afterwards that 15° is to sharpe to negotiate. The consulting firm wants docummented proof. I believe this track is for the Museum grounds. High seed does not have to be figured in. Just slow speed movement........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Re: K4s Question (minimum radius) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 17:44:24 -0400 The current Keystone had an article about placing the K4 on the curve and talked about pulling over one of the main tracks to put the loco on the curve. I'm at work and don't remember if it gave any numbers for the curvature or just described how the initial approach yielded a curve that was too tight... Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gary > Mittner > Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2001 5:08 PM > To: Jerry Britton; PRR@egroups.com > Cc: John Sheets; PRR Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: K4s Question (minimum radius) > > > Jerry, John, > > Good idea about the time tables. I have a webtv so I can't open > the kind of files you have Jerry. Answer could be in there somewhere. > This is what I have found out so far by just reading books. The > question was, what is the minimum radius a K4 could handle? I found out > that Horseshoe Curve is laid out at a 9° curvature. We know that is > pretty sharp. No problem for a K4 though. We know the westbound > departing track out of Penn Station in Pittsburgh was 12°. This was so > sharp it prohibited M1 Locos. So I am assuming a K4 could handle a curve > up to about 15° Does this sound correct? I wouldn't want to say > this for certain to the track layers and find out afterwards that 15° > is to sharpe to negotiate. The consulting firm wants docummented proof. > I believe this track is for the Museum grounds. High seed does not have > to be figured in. Just slow speed movement........Gary > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" > to "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: SUVCWORR@aol.com From: RichofScot@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 20:03:09 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR EP-22's schedule Speaking the EP-22's, I know the route of the soon to be Amtrak special has been published on this list but has the schedule been made available yet? I would like to plan my weekend. Unfortunately, the price is too much for my budget. Thanks. Rich Orr [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Rick Schoch Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 22:24:24 -0400 Subject: RE: [PRR-FAX] PRR EP-22's > I think Bennett deserves the > biggest Thank You. For if his purchase of these Locos did not happen, > many of us of the younger generation would have missed out in seeing a > little of the Pennsy brought back to life. > I agree wholeheartedly. Many many thanks to Bennett for not only restoring the E's but making it possible for all to see and ride behind them. I've ordered tickets for Railfest and will be counting the days!! Tug ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty \(The Cos\)" Subject: RE: [PRR] Position Light Signals Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 23:15:37 -0400 Howdy All: We have a set at Columbia too. The lights are set to protect the C&PD from the Lancaster Main. I can't remember if the single tower east of Cola had red lenses also (the 48R and 44R signals - see http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/cola.gif - thanks to Mark Bej for the maps). . Cos Cos Communications, Inc. Home Page Rail Road Pages Subject: RE: [PRR] Position Light Signals Red lenses were installed only at Overbrook, not Bryn Mawr nor Paoli. I'm pretty sure this was the only installation anywhere in electrified territory. Removed in the early/mid 70s. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 22:56:17 -0700 From: Doug Edwards Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR-Talk Digest - 08/01/01 Gary, The data I have for minimum radius for a K4s is 275feet at 5 mph, 325 feet at 10 mph, or 400 feet at 15 mph. These values are for forward motion. For reverse, 400 feet at 5 mph and no values given at a higher speed. A note says 5730 divided by Rad. in feet equals degree of curve. Regards, Doug > > > Subject: K4s Question > From: "Gary Mittner" > Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 15:41:37 -0400 (EDT) > > Lists, > > I recieved a question via an email concerning the K4s. I do not > have the answer nor could I find it in any books I have. The person > wants to know the minimum radius of curve a K4 could negotiate. Is this > curve measured in degrees or is it measured in feet. If the actual > radius is known please inform me and supply a source this can be found > in. Evidently this info is needed for trackage at the Railroad Memorial > Museum in Altoona. Seems they are making plans for the K4.....Thanks, > Gary > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 10:32:04 EDT From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] PRR EP-22's schedule Speaking the EP-22's, I know the route of the soon to be Amtrak special has been published on this list but has the schedule been made available yet? I would like to plan my weekend. Unfortunately, the price is too much for my budget. Thanks. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] PRR flat cars.... Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 11:53:58 -0400 Hi all, I've been working on updating the flat cars section of my web site and am compiling a list of PRR flat cars and available models. Here's what I've come up with so far. The list is HO scale as that's what I model.. I came up with HO scale models for 19 out of the 35 classes I listed. (For the most part I haven't differentiated sub-classes even though I probably should have..) Are there any that I've missed? Any that can be kitbashed? What accurate models are available in other scales? I'm also looking for info on the classes that I have ? marks for (early lettered classes, F27, F45 & F46). Which of these classes existed and what were they? I'm also looking for class diagrams for the classes I'm missing (ones with ? marks for the length). Lastly I'm looking for flat car photos that I can add to my site... Thanks! Rob http://prr.railfan.net/freight Class - Description - Available models FA-FL - ? FM - 40' flat - Railworks, brass; Sunshine, resin kit; F&C, resin kit FN - 38' well - NONE F21 - 40' flat - NONE F22 - 30' flat - Railworks, brass F23 - 30' flat - NONE F24 - 40' flat - NONE F25 - 45' well - Red Ball, kit F26 - ?' plate car (none built) F27 - ? F28 - 52' depressed - Railworks, brass F29 - 52' depressed - Railworks, brass F30 - 50' flat - Bowser, Plastic kit; Sunshine, Resin kit F31 - 63' flat - Railworks, brass F32 - 70' flat - NONE F33 - 52' depressed well - Railworks, brass F34 - 44' HD flat - Railworks, brass F35 - 53' depressed - Railworks, brass F36 - 50' HD flat - Railworks, brass F37 & F37b - 39' well - Railworks, brass F38 - 57' HD flat - RailClassics, brass (not yet released) F39 - 75' flat - Walthers, plastic kit; Overland, brass F40 - ?' depressed flat - NONE F41 - 53' flat - Gloor Craft, wood kit; Tichy & Walthers, plastic (stand ins...) F42 - 54' depressed - NONE F43 - 57' depressed - NONE F44 - 72' depressed - NONE F45 - ? F46 - ? F47 - 60' flat - NONE F48 - 89' flat - NONE F49 - 48' well - Overland, brass FD1 - 72' depressed - Railworks, brass FD2 - 121' depressed - Railworks, brass, Alco, brass FD3 - ?' depressed - NONE FW1 - 120' well - Railworks, brass, Alco, brass FW2 - 60' well - NONE ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bennett Levin Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 14:55:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] PRR EP-22's schedule Moderastely priced Day space is available from the Washington NRHS in the Dover Harbor and the Harrisburgh Chapter in the Wautaga Chapter's "Powhatten Arrow" Coach. Check both web sites for more information. Bennett Levin RichofScot@aol.com wrote: > > Speaking the EP-22's, I know the route of the soon to be Amtrak special has > been published on this list but has the schedule been made available yet? I > would like to plan my weekend. Unfortunately, the price is too much for my > budget. > > Thanks. > > Rich Orr > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. > > To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = > PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 14:55:53 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] PRR EP-22's schedule Moderastely priced Day space is available from the Washington NRHS in the Dover Harbor and the Harrisburgh Chapter in the Wautaga Chapter's "Powhatten Arrow" Coach. Check both web sites for more information. Bennett Levin RichofScot@aol.com wrote: > > Speaking the EP-22's, I know the route of the soon to be Amtrak special has > been published on this list but has the schedule been made available yet? I > would like to plan my weekend. Unfortunately, the price is too much for my > budget. > > Thanks. > > Rich Orr > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> > Small business owners... > Tell us what you think! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. > > To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = > PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 13:22:16 -0500 From: prrbill Subject: [PRR] Iron Horse in Schenectady The PBS station in Albany, NY has produced a 60 minute special on ALCO. I found their 800 number on the OGR model railroading forum and, after reading the glowing reviews, spoke for a time to Dave Wennberg. I told him I'd forward this information to PRR enthusiasts in case they wanted to get the video. Bill Morlitz We do have a home video of the program. Locally it is currently only available to WMHT members. However, we are making it available as a retail sale to people outside our viewing area immediately. The home video is $19.95 plus shipping. The program is approximately 60 minutes. To take advantage of this special introductory offer please call me directly at 1-800-272-6492 or e-mail to dwenn@wmht.org with credit card information and I will place your order. For more info please see our website http://www.wmht.org/ironhorse/home.html. We have produced many other local history programs and a complete catalog of released videos is available at www.shopwmht.org David Wennberg ShopWMHT 1-800-272-6492 dwenn@wmht.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 17:45:00 EDT Subject: [PRR] Steel Book Available List, I posted the following on the yahoo Steel talk list. Now knowing how many PRR modelers are into the Steel Seen... I thought someone on are list might be interested in this as well. So here it is; Hello List, I have a mint copy of the out of print, much sought after, The History, Making and Modeling of STEEL by the wizard himself Dean Freytag that I'm willing to sell. Trust me, this is a mint copy and I"ll let it go to the highest offer over $60.00. . . "Bidding" closes Sunday night Aug. 5th. Please contact me (off line) if you're interested. Thanks, Jon S. JONSS6755@aol.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Kadee Spiker Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 22:14:16 -0400 Hi All, After much pontification, I have decided to sell my Kadee Spiker. http://users.snip.net/~billlane/spiker.jpg It is for code 100 rail. I am going to list it on Ebay on Sunday night unless someone wants it before then. I have seen what they are going for on Ebay. I paid $100.00 for it 12 years ago. I bought it from the original owner who said Kadee rebuilt it just before he sold it to me. I have used it to put down approximately 200 feet of S scale track in a yard module. I need the money for an S Scale B & O EM-1 that is being made next year. Included are 2 sealed spike packs (about 8000) and one that is about 1/2 used. The original Styrofoam box is in good condition. I am going to have a minimum bid of $250.00. Any takers? This informal auction ends this Sunday night at 6:00 p.m. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 23:04:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] pictures from the eastern end of the Panhandle Because I happened to find myself travelling west of Pittsburgh 3 times this week, on the third day I took some pictures of some surviving structures on the former Panhandle. I also rode the new West Busway in Pittsburgh (built on the former Panhandle as far as Carnegie) recently, but didn't have time to take pictures, and almost missed my plane. Anyhow, without further ado, http://prr.dementia.org/places/panhandle-division/ Maybe I'll have some more time at some point and can go take more. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Apparently-From: From: Garry Spear Subject: [PRR] PRR Pullman Web Pages Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 22:36:47 -0400 "The Complete Roster of Pennsylvania Railroad owned Pullman Heavyweight Parlor and Sleeping Cars" has made it to the web. http://PRR.Railfan.net/passenger/GSPEAR/ This started as needed material for some Heavyweight PRR Pullman models and developed into a book. The material is a guide for modelers with basic car information. Such as, truck type and AC type. Both needed for an accurate model. The information has been expanded to include the Pullman cars converted to coaches during W.W.II and has lists of the Horse and Scenery cars. Garry Spear _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 17:48:51 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] Crossing an aisle. List: I would like to extend a short 3 track reverse loop to cross over an aisle to reach another part of the layout ( from a peninsula to one of the around the walls sections). The extension distance is about 6'. Would prefer to make it resemble a bridge without having to scratchbuild a bridge. There would be no supports possible for a distance of 3' over the aisle. Does anybody have any ideas on doing this? Thanks in advance. Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Crossing an aisle. Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 18:56:10 -0400 Eddie: Can it cross a body of water? There was an article in MR years ago where someone crossed a doorway with girder bridges on piers over a piece of plywood done as a waterway. It looked quite realistic and worked very well with latches and contacts. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" To: ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 5:48 PM Subject: [PRR] Crossing an aisle. > List: > I would like to extend a short 3 track reverse loop to cross over an > aisle to reach another > part of the layout ( from a peninsula to one of the around the walls > sections). > The extension distance is about 6'. Would prefer to make it resemble a > bridge without > having to scratchbuild a bridge. There would be no supports possible for > a distance of 3' > over the aisle. > Does anybody have any ideas on doing this? > Thanks in advance. > > Eddie > Dr. Edmond L. Freed > PRRT&HS # 156 > Modeling the C&PD in HO > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 09:24:16 -0400 Subject: [PRR] P2K 2-8-8-2 PRR Class HH-1 From: Jerry Britton I decided this product announcement was worthy of more than mention on the "Merchandise Announce" list... Life Like Proto 2000 "Heritage Collection" has FINALLY announced their 2-8-8-2 in PRR livery...two road numbers in fact!!! The unit is due in October and more information may be gleaned from http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/ms_ar.html Good news for HO scalers!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 08:48:28 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] P2K 2-8-8-2 PRR Class HH-1 Jerry sez: >Life Like Proto 2000 "Heritage Collection" has FINALLY announced their >2-8-8-2 in PRR livery...two road numbers in fact!!! > >The unit is due in October and more information may be gleaned from > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/ms_ar.html > >Good news for HO scalers!!! Since zee cat is out of zee bag....I think I can help fill in the details ;^) The numbers released are 373 and 376. #373 will be modeled circa August 1943, as received from N&W with the initial PRR modifications. This engine will had the Y-5 (Y-tube) front engine. These engines were based at Enola and will have appropriate pilot beam markings. #376 will depict the locos later in service, with more "PRR" appliances such as claw foot tender markers. #376 had a standard Y-3 front engine (metal bracket headlight support) and was based at Columbus. All of the PRR locomotives has the 18,000 gallon tender which was approximately 3 feet longer than the previously offered 16,000 gallon straight sided tender and was really the more common tender for the N&W Y-3s. See Mainline Modeler a couple years back for drawings. While I never got a direct confirmation that LL was tooling a new mold for the tender, I told them that the old tender with fishbelly sills would be wrong about a zillion times. I have yet to see the test shots, but I have hopes that we got them to use the correct builders plates as well (PRR not Alco). Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 12:30:20 -0500 From: Greg Johnson Subject: Re: [PRR] Crossing an aisle. Eddie, One good method to simulate a girder bridge is to use aluminum channel (available at large home supply stores) as the base. Simply super glue vertical angles or tees every 8' feet or so, add some decking or bridge tie strip, paint it black and you are in business. I had a long one on a previous N scale layout. It worked great and was very rigid. Regards, Greg Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" To: ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 4:48 PM Subject: [PRR] Crossing an aisle. > List: > I would like to extend a short 3 track reverse loop to cross over an > aisle to reach another > part of the layout ( from a peninsula to one of the around the walls > sections). > The extension distance is about 6'. Would prefer to make it resemble a > bridge without > having to scratchbuild a bridge. There would be no supports possible for > a distance of 3' > over the aisle. > Does anybody have any ideas on doing this? > Thanks in advance. > > Eddie > Dr. Edmond L. Freed > PRRT&HS # 156 > Modeling the C&PD in HO > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 14:14:50 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Crossing an aisle. If your model is HO (as your signature indicates), then a 3 foot gap is about 260 scale feet. (3 x 87) That is far too long for a prototype girder bridge. The prototype would certainly have built a truss to span that size gap. Unfortunately since you don't want to scratch build, I don't know of any commercial model that long. However, consider making a model of three 87 foot girder spans with the two mid-stream piers modeled below the two joints. Structurally it could be made from a continuous wood or aluminum member whose sides are covered with girder models. The Central Valley plastic girder bridge comes to mind. The two piers would "dangle in space, "supporting" the bridge on the bed of the unmodeled river! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Greg Johnson wrote: > > Eddie, > > One good method to simulate a girder bridge is to use aluminum channel > (available at large home supply stores) as the base. Simply super glue > vertical angles or tees every 8' feet or so, add some decking or bridge tie > strip, paint it black and you are in business. I had a long one on a > previous N scale layout. It worked great and was very rigid. > > Regards, > > Greg Johnson > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" > To: ; "PRR-Talk LIST" > Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2001 4:48 PM > Subject: [PRR] Crossing an aisle. > > > List: > > I would like to extend a short 3 track reverse loop to cross over an > > aisle to reach another > > part of the layout ( from a peninsula to one of the around the walls > > sections). > > The extension distance is about 6'. Would prefer to make it resemble a > > bridge without > > having to scratchbuild a bridge. There would be no supports possible for > > a distance of 3' > > over the aisle. > > Does anybody have any ideas on doing this? > > Thanks in advance. > > > > Eddie > > Dr. Edmond L. Freed > > PRRT&HS # 156 > > Modeling the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 15:48:27 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TAN - Domain Name "ModelRailroadNews.net" From: Jerry Britton Some time ago I registered the domain name "modelrailroadnews.net" for a project that never panned out. Actually, I put my time and effort into other areas. This domain registration is pre-paid for some time to come, but I was wondering if anyone on any of my lists might be interested in purchasing/adopting this domain name. If so, please contact me off-list. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 18:44:19 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Crossing an aisle. You guys are making this much more complicated than it really needs to be - 3/4" plywood and some old door hinges should enable your railroad to cross the aisle with "Dry feet" - just don't forget to provide electrical or mechanical protection, so that your limiteds don't take a plunge into the chasm. Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 22:07:33 -0400 From: Bob Johnson Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Archives Question 4 Sincere thanks to all who participated in answering Questions 1, 2 and 3. Your replies have been sent to the members of the PRRT&HS Archives Committee for their information and discussion. The prior questions were posted on July 16, 21 and 30. The purpose of posing these questions on the list is to give you the opportunity to make your wishes known to the Committee. It's not too late to answer earlier questions. You can look them up in the list's archives. Question 4 - background. Just as there are many types of materials and information in the PRRT&HS collection at Lewistown, and there are a number of different uses people might make of the collection, so there are items that people might find essential and other items that they would have no use for. As a reminder, among the types of materials are: photographs (primarily locomotives, but some cars), drawings of locomotives and cars on microfilm, blueprint and other copies of drawings of locomotives and cars, drawings of bridges and buildings, maps, track charts, alignment and profile drawings, valuation section maps, other drawings depicting locations and right of way, and files of specifications and correspondence related to various locomotive and car classes. For your projects, what sort of materials are absolutely essential? What sort of information is of no use or interest? What sorts of drawings are absolutely essential for modelling rolling stock, structures, track and building layouts? Are there any types of drawings you see no use for, e.g. plumbing or heating drawings for buildings? As before, it will be a great help if you will identify yourselves as PRRT&HS members or non-members. It will also be appreciated if you will let us know whether or not you have used RR archives, such as the Hagley or the PA State Archives before. Also, to enable further discussion of your thoughts, you are invited to send your replies to the list. This will probably be the last question. Thanks, Bob Johnson, Chairman PRRT&HS Archive Committee ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 22:34:25 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] Re: [ldsig] re: Crossing an aisle. "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" wrote: > List: > I would like to extend a short 3 track reverse loop to cross over an > aisle to reach another part of the layout ( from a peninsula to one of the > around the walls > sections). The extension distance is about 6'. Would prefer to make it > resemble a > bridge without having to scratchbuild a bridge. There would be no supports > possible for > a distance of 3' over the aisle. > Does anybody have any ideas on doing this? > (snip) List: Thanks for the many responses received so far. I should have been more specific in my original message. Proposed bridge will be high enough to walk under without stooping or bending (if I do not use any piers or riverbeds as some suggested.. It does not have to be removable in any way. Could use some supports on edges of both tables, if necessary. Hope this drawing helps? | ____________________________3 track main___________________________| Hidden staging area |___________________________________________________________| behind backdrop Hill | Bridge (1" x 8"??) | | | Hill ----------track--| |--track-------- Table | Aisle | Table | | Best idea so far is 1" x 8" using girder bridge sides to cover edges & then ballast entire deck of bridge. Is there enough support under bridge as shown (length is over 4') or should I use extra support at ends of tables? Thanks again. Eddie P.S. Hello from Florida to members of Phila Division ,PRRTH&S from an old member. Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 22:52:27 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] Re: [ldsig] re: Crossing an aisle. "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" wrote: > "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" wrote: > > > List: > > I would like to extend a short 3 track reverse loop to cross over an > > aisle to reach another part of the layout ( from a peninsula to one of the > > > List: > Thanks for the many responses received so far. > I should have been more specific in my original message. Proposed bridge > will be > high enough to walk under without stooping or bending (if I do not use any > piers Sorry. Drawing got jumbled in sending. Eddie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 06:30:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Archives Question 4 From: Jerry Britton On 8/6/01 10:07 PM, Bob Johnson at (bobjohnson@alltel.net) wrote: > Question 4 - background. Just as there are many types of materials and > information in the PRRT&HS collection at Lewistown, and there are a > number of different uses people might make of the collection, so there > are items that people might find essential and other items that they > would have no use for. As a reminder, among the types of materials are: > photographs (primarily locomotives, but some cars), drawings of > locomotives and cars on microfilm, blueprint and other copies of > drawings of locomotives and cars, drawings of bridges and buildings, > maps, track charts, alignment and profile drawings, valuation section > maps, other drawings depicting locations and right of way, and files of > specifications and correspondence related to various locomotive and car > classes. > > For your projects, what sort of materials are absolutely essential? Valuation maps, blueprints and photos of structures. > What sort of information is of no use or interest? What sorts of > drawings are absolutely essential for modelling rolling stock, > structures, track and building layouts? Are there any types of drawings > you see no use for, e.g. plumbing or heating drawings for buildings? You've got it...I do not plan on modeling plumbing in N scale!!! While it is always good to have more, I think, for now, we have plenty of loco pics available. I would back-burner the effort to catalog these. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Tender Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 16:35:32 -0400 I moved from california to Brookville, Pa in January and have been getting around the local area and elsewhere looking for vintage equipment and signs of the old PRR. I just went to the Knox and Kane railroad 21 miles north from where I live. They have an N-8 caboose which can be rented. A vintage chinese steam engine with doghouse on tender or diesel engine, ex-Gettysburgh RR, pulls their passenger trains through the Allegheny forest; and, they will leave you overnight in the cabin car to pick you up the following day. It is on my list to do. I was searching along a siding some 2 miles away from the depot at Marienville and I came across a tender. I could clearly make out "pennsylvania" under the new paint. It was painted like the pre-1954 lettering with a line over it, as used on frieght cars. I think it may have been used as a tender for a crane after the steam era. This of'course does not asure that it is PRR but the trucks had a vin number starting with PRR. I was told by an employee that it is for scrap. She was not certain but she thought it had a hole in it and they have since built a new one. She told me it was previously used on a baldwin engine that was in the roundhouse. After some coaxing she finally showed me the old baldwin. No belpaire firebox boiler but the tender on it obviously had the tank rebuilt. The frame and trucks seem original as far as I could tell, but it doesn't look PRR to me. I am not a tender expert, but to my eyes it looks a lot like the one on the I1sa at hamburg. My fiim is at the developers to be returned thursday. I will get a better idea what class the tender is then. ---Greg Stone PRRT&HS member special interest Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 16:52:32 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] G-24 gon question Howdy y'all, I had two quick questions about the composite G-24 gondola. These were built during WWII to "USRA" specs. There is a kit from Intermountain of these cars. 1) When were these cars rebuilt with steel sides? 2) Were the floor replaced as well? I beleive as built they were drop bottom, but that the rebuilts were solid bottom...wood or steel floors? 3) When were they removed from service (or, how many were in service in 1944?) I'm thinking of modifying the Intermountain kit with thin brass sides to represent a rebuilt car. I'll dent up the sides some to represent wear. This kit seems to lend itself perfectly to this approach. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] G-24 gon question Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 18:20:05 -0400 Bruce, Try my site at: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=G24 I tabulated the entries from yearly ORER entries (from Al Westerfield's PRR ORER CD's) and it shows the transition pretty well... The transition happened between 1932 and 1936... Don't know about the floor material.... There were still about 650 of them in 1944... One car was still on the roster in 1963... Hope this helps! Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bruce F. > Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 5:53 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] G-24 gon question > > > Howdy y'all, > > I had two quick questions about the composite G-24 gondola. These were > built during WWII to "USRA" specs. There is a kit from Intermountain of > these cars. > > 1) When were these cars rebuilt with steel sides? > 2) Were the floor replaced as well? I beleive as built they were drop > bottom, but that the rebuilts were solid bottom...wood or steel floors? > 3) When were they removed from service (or, how many were in > service in 1944?) > > I'm thinking of modifying the Intermountain kit with thin brass sides to > represent a rebuilt car. I'll dent up the sides some to represent wear. > This kit seems to lend itself perfectly to this approach. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - > Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "penncent" Subject: [PRR] PRR commemorative plate for sale on Ebay Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 21:09:08 -0400 I have for sale on Ebay a plate with NYC, PRR, and PC logos commemorating the formation of the Penn Central, and was manufactured for the New York Central Veterans, Lake (Erie) Shore Chapter in 1969. Photos are provided. Thanks, Don. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1174941427 Don Narris -- Canton, Ohio (MP 99, PFW&C RR) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lmatt" Subject: Re: [PRR] Photos of PRR motors, 4880 Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 21:51:11 -0400 I was just perusing the photos of PRR motors when I noticed that the nose pan decks on GG1 4880 are painted a color and are not silver. The photo is B&W, and the deck has approximately the same gray shade as the red stripe and lettering does. Anyone know what color this actually is? and why? Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Claus Schlund" To: Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 8:03 PM Subject: [PRR] Photos of PRR motors > Hi everyone, > > I recently came across this site > which has some very cool PRR > photos, in particular PRR motors. > > Has several shots of "modernized" > DD-1 motors, and also the elusive > R-1 at Manhattan Transfer. > > http://donross.railspot.com/ > > Enjoy - Claus > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: Re: [PRR] G-24 gon question Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 22:05:21 -0400 Bruce did you mean WWI. The G28 (1) and G30's were composite cars built in WWII. I thought the G24's were earlier. Brian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." To: Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2001 5:52 PM Subject: [PRR] G-24 gon question > Howdy y'all, > > I had two quick questions about the composite G-24 gondola. These were > built during WWII to "USRA" specs. There is a kit from Intermountain of > these cars. > > 1) When were these cars rebuilt with steel sides? > 2) Were the floor replaced as well? I beleive as built they were drop > bottom, but that the rebuilts were solid bottom...wood or steel floors? > 3) When were they removed from service (or, how many were in service in 1944?) > > I'm thinking of modifying the Intermountain kit with thin brass sides to > represent a rebuilt car. I'll dent up the sides some to represent wear. > This kit seems to lend itself perfectly to this approach. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 22:10:00 -0400 From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Photos of PRR motors, 4880 I think I remember black of DGLE, but I don't have any sources handy. John Ryan lmatt wrote: > I was just perusing the photos of PRR motors when I noticed that the nose > pan decks on GG1 4880 are painted a color and are not silver. The photo is > B&W, and the deck has approximately the same gray shade as the red stripe > and lettering does. Anyone know what color this actually is? and why? > > Lew Matt > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Claus Schlund" > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 8:03 PM > Subject: [PRR] Photos of PRR motors > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I recently came across this site > > which has some very cool PRR > > photos, in particular PRR motors. > > > > Has several shots of "modernized" > > DD-1 motors, and also the elusive > > R-1 at Manhattan Transfer. > > > > http://donross.railspot.com/ > > > > Enjoy - Claus > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 06:20:15 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] G-24 gon question From: Jerry Britton On 8/7/01 5:52 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. at (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > I had two quick questions about the composite G-24 gondola. These were > built during WWII to "USRA" specs. There is a kit from Intermountain of > these cars. > > 1) When were these cars rebuilt with steel sides? > 2) Were the floor replaced as well? I beleive as built they were drop > bottom, but that the rebuilts were solid bottom...wood or steel floors? > 3) When were they removed from service (or, how many were in service in > 1944?) This info is on Rob's site, as I had looked it up several months back. Many made it into the 50's, so you will be safe in 1944. > > I'm thinking of modifying the Intermountain kit with thin brass sides to > represent a rebuilt car. I'll dent up the sides some to represent wear. > This kit seems to lend itself perfectly to this approach. > I have the InterMountain kit in N scale and it is a beauty with its real wood sides and floor. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 09:17:50 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Photos of PRR motors, 4880 >I was just perusing the photos of PRR motors when I noticed that the nose >pan decks on GG1 4880 are painted a color and are not silver. The photo is >B&W, and the deck has approximately the same gray shade as the red stripe >and lettering does. Anyone know what color this actually is? and why? > >Lew Matt How about rust ? Actually, on the silver 4880, I believe a black panel was painted to help hid the rust from the pans. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 09:19:54 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] G-24 gon question Jerry wrote: >I have the InterMountain kit in N scale and it is a beauty with its real >wood sides and floor. Yep, except that all of the cars were rebuilt to steel sides by 1937 (according to Rob's page). You probably can't even use the wood floor since it depicts doors in the floor and I think the rebuilds removed that feature...So the operative question is the floor. Does anyone have or know of a photo of the rebuilt cars (steel sided)...I'd love any photo, not just one of the floor. Thanks to all of you who reminded me of Rob's pages (including Rob!). They are an incredible resource for the PRR modeler! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 20:50:32 EDT Subject: [PRR] Check This Out ! Fellow Pennsy Fans, Check this out! This is the first "taste" of something thats in the works that I think is going to be very big. Stay tune for updates. . . Be sure to have your sound on. . . And Enjoy ! ! Secrets Of The Broadway Limited It may take a little bit to download, But it's well worth the wait! Jon Sbordone PRRT&HS #3079 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 19:12:47 -0700 Subject: [PRR] NH RPOs on the PRR Hi, I'm not sure if I should post this to the PRR-Talk ist or to the HYNH&H list, but I will try here first... PRR and NYNH&H hosted a number of Boston-Washington run-thru RPO services. I know PRR mail cars ran on the NYNH&H to Boston, as I've seen published photos of PRR M70 cars in Boston. Question I have is, did NYNH&H RPO cars ever run thru south of Penn Station/NYC to destinations such as Washington DC or Harrisburg, PA? If anyone has a reference to a published photo that would be ideal, but I'd be interested in any general responses, even conjectural ones without published references as well. If possible, including a time frame in your response would be great, as this will help put the bigger picture in better perspective... - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 22:15:25 -0500 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] Check This Out ! JONS6755@aol.com wrote: > > Fellow Pennsy Fans, > Check this out! This is the first "taste" of something thats in > the works that I think is going to be very big. Stay tune for > updates. . . Be sure to have your sound on. . . And Enjoy ! ! > > Secrets Of The Broadway Limited > It may take a little bit to download, But it's well worth the wait! > > Jon Sbordone > PRRT&HS #3079 It is one sharp site with great graphics (Flash animation?) that certainly promises great things. Hope it delivers! BTW, they say to visit site which is under construction. The "under construction" signage is multi-lingual so speculation: computer game, Nintendo-type game, book, what? Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 06:36:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] NH RPOs on the PRR From: Jerry Britton On 8/8/01 10:12 PM, Claus Schlund at (schlund@cwnet.com) wrote: > PRR and NYNH&H hosted a number of Boston-Washington > run-thru RPO services. I know PRR mail cars ran on the > NYNH&H to Boston, as I've seen published photos of PRR > M70 cars in Boston. Question I have is, did NYNH&H RPO > cars ever run thru south of Penn Station/NYC to > destinations such as Washington DC or Harrisburg, PA? I'm modeling Harrisburg in 9/54. The following comes from a variety of sources, including the "Makeup of Trains: New York Division" from 4/54, as well as PTT's from 9/54. I've included trains with not only NYNH&H cars, but also those that carried PRR cars from those cities. 8:55 a.m.....95 (NH181) arr from New York (Daily Ex. Sun. & Mon.) Express.....P.X.T. to Harrisburg (X29) Harrisburg: Remove. Express.....P.X.T. to Chicago (B60) (To No. 99 at Pittsburgh). Express.....P.X.T. to Columbus (R50) (To No. 203 at Pittsburgh). Express.....P.X.T. to Birmingham (R50) (To No. 203 at Pittsburgh). Express.....Boston to Indianapolis (B60) (To No. 27 at Pittsburgh). Express.....Hartford to St. Louis (R50) (To No. 27 at Pittsburgh). Express.....Providence to St. Louis (B60) (Mess.) (To No. 27 at Pittsburgh). Express.....South Norwalk to St. Louis (B60) (To No. 27 at Pittsburgh). Express.....South Norwalk to Chicago (R50) (To No. 99 at Pittsburgh). Express.....Providence to Chicago (B60) (Mess.) (To No. 99 at Pittsburgh). Mail Storage.....Providence to Chicago (MS60) (To No. 99 at Pittsburgh). Express.....Boston to Chicago (B60) (To No. 99 at Pittsburgh). Express.....Hartford to Chicago (B60) (To No. 99 at Pittsburgh). Mail Storage.....New Haven to Chicago (MS60) (To No. 99 at Pittsburgh). Express.....Bridgeport to Chicago (B60) (To No. 99 at Pittsburgh). Express.....Hartford to Pittsburgh (X29) Mail Storage.....New Haven to Pittsburgh (MS60) Mail Storage.....Providence to Pittsburgh (MS60) (Two Cars) Express.....Boston to Pittsburgh (B60) Express.....Boston to Pittsburgh (R50) Express.....Boston to Harrisburg (R50 or X29) Harrisburg: Remove. Cabin.....Boston to Pittsburgh 4:22 p.m.....72 arr from Pittsburgh The Juniata Express.....Berwick to Boston (B60) (To NH100 at New York). Baggage.....Pittsburgh to Stamford (B60) (PRR-NH-B&M) (DH) (Three cars) (To NH100 at New York). Express.....Chicago to Hartford (B60) (To NH100 at New York). Express.....Chicago to Boston (B60) (To NH100 at New York). Express.....St. Louis to Boston (B60) (Mess.) (To NH100 at New York). Express.....Cincinnati to Boston (B60) (To NH100 at New York). Express.....Pittsburgh to Boston (B60) (Mess.) (To NH100 at New York). Express.....Pittsburgh to Springfield (B60) (To NH100 at New York). Baggage/Mail.....Pittsburgh to New York (BM70 30') Parlor.....Pittsburgh to New York (PL 28-1) Coffee Shop Tavern.....Pittsburgh to New York Coaches.....Pittsburgh to New York (P70GSR) (Two cars) Coach.....Harrisburg to New York (P70 Scheme 6) Harrisburg: Add from Coach Yard. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 08:54:01 -0400 From: Steven Hanlon Subject: [PRR] broadway website At 10:15 PM 8/8/01 -0500, prrbill wrote: JONS6755@aol.com wrote: > > Fellow Pennsy Fans, > Check this out! This is the first "taste" of something thats in > the works that I think is going to be very big. Stay tune for > updates. . . Be sure to have your sound on. . . And Enjoy ! ! > > Secrets Of The Broadway Limited > It may take a little bit to download, But it's well worth the wait! the site looks very nice. looks like a bad suspense book in the works. It is one sharp site with great graphics (Flash animation?) that certainly promises great things. Hope it delivers! BTW, they say to visit site which is under construction. The "under construction" signage is multi-lingual so speculation: computer game, Nintendo-type game, book, what? i doubt it is a computer game. if it is, it is very low budget. the site is hosted thru worldnic and the contact point is a dialup ISP account. not very "professional" for a computer software company. WHOIS: Registrant: smart communications, inc. (THEBROADWAYLTD-DOM) 3151 Cahuenga Blvd. Los Angeles, CA 90068 US Domain Name: THEBROADWAYLTD.COM Administrative Contact, Billing Contact: smart communications, inc. (R23868-OR) smartcommco@earthlink.net smart communications, inc. 3151 Cahuenga Blvd. Los Angeles, CA 90068 US 323.850.8194 Technical Contact: WorldNIC Name Host (HOST-ORG) namehost@WORLDNIC.COM Network Solutions, Inc. 505 Huntmar Park Drive Herndon, VA 20170-5142 1-888-642-9675 Record last updated on 10-Jul-2001. Record expires on 10-Jul-2002. Record created on 10-Jul-2001. Database last updated on 8-Aug-2001 21:23:00 EDT. -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 09:03:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Check This Out ! In a message dated 8/8/01 7:55:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, prrbill@Op.Net writes: << It is one sharp site with great graphics (Flash animation?) that certainly promises great things. Hope it delivers! BTW, they say to visit site which is under construction. The "under construction" signage is multi-lingual so speculation: computer game, Nintendo-type game, book, what? Bill Morlitz >> Bill and List, If I told you, it wouldn't be a secret. Tune in to www.TheBroadwayltd.com on September 1 and watch the mystery unfold. Thats all I can say at this time. . . Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 10:14:49 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Wilmington Station From: Jerry Britton About two weeks ago I made a post to the list that "Merchandise Service" has one unsold "Wilmington Station: Second Installment" (clock tower building) in stock and subscription to the "Wilmington Station: Third Installment" when it comes in. We had a customer who took the first installment, has since had a divorce, and no has no financial capability to complete their commitment. We had reported that there was no way for us to provide the first installment to the prospective buyer of two and three. Now there is!!! Trainstuff has offered to make us an additional first installment (the main building). Therefore, it is still possible for one lucky person to purchase the entire Wilmington Station Series, which is fully reserved worldwide! You can view pics of the station model on the TrainStuff web site (http://www.trainstuffllc.com). Contact me off-list if interested. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 11:00:30 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: the word is out Harry Yes the word is out. after reading your e-mail I posted The Secrets of The Broadway Ltd on the main Pennsy talk list last night aftrer reading your e-mail and it has spread across other talk lists as I knew it would ! As far as you e-mail. . . As far as my venture. . . First of all, I've been unemployed for the past six months after being downsized by my last employer. after having no luck finding work I've decided to try something of my own working in a field that I have knowledge of, the railfan/ hobby world. What I'm looking at doing is starting my own busniess providing custom designed, pre-inked address stamps to train enthusiasts both railfans and modelers featuring art work and hearalds of their favorite locomotives and railroad. Now I'm sure your saying "wherer did ya get this idea from" Well'long story. My last place of enployment was a company (Schwaab Stamp) that make pre-inked stamps. While working there I had made up for myself an address stamp with the artwork of a PRR M1b loco.on it fraom clipart I had. I send out alot of snail mail and use the stamp as a return address on my envelops. Well I started getting comments like; nice stamp, where did ya get it, how can I get one etc. etc. and after awhile a light went off in my head. There might be a demand here! Now I don't know if you know this or not. . . but the eclectic group of railfans,model railroaders, train buffs whatever you want to call them. . . is a pretty wierd bunch!! And one of the things this "group loves to do is show off to their peers and the world what they're into. Be it their favorite railroad or locomotive or what club or historical society. . . they like to show it off. I perrsonely think this ties in to a need for belonging if you will. Whatever, anyway what better way to show you colors than a n address stamp that flashes "your colors" on all you correspondences ans whereever eles you chose to stamp it. I'm also going to have stamps for marking books, a "from the library of" kinda thing with the same art available. Train buffs have a lot of valuable books... and these books can sprout legs. This will stop that. I approached Schwaab Stamp with the idea of working as an independent with them. . . and they loved the idea. Why not... I'll be making them money!! They'll make the stamps for me and I'll go to shows, conventions, swap meets, historical society meets, whereever and take orders for these stamps. In the future (if this flys) I plan ads in major hobby related magazines, a website, and of course mail order (EZ Money) from flyers handed out at these shows and from repeat business. The name of the business will be STAMPTRAIN as in here comes the. . . and Harry, part of me thinks this is the greatest thing since sliced bread and the other thinks I'm F#%$@in' Crazy! ! ! Now, As far as how "Secrets" and STAMPTRAIN starting at the same time might just be fate. I respect the fact that due to you involvment with those Athearn Boys you can't "help" my venture. The big thing I'm dealing with at the start up is that I'll have to be traveling to all these shows, and Schwaab will not cover anything (the dirty dogs!) I'm on my own. Now, after not working for awhile my pockets aren't very deep. What I was thinking is I would be more than happy to promote, market, sell, whatever "Secrets" and all that is to come out of it at all these shows along side STAMPTRAIN. . . or even go to shows solely to market "Secrets" if you could help cover my expenses. . . or in some way make it worth my whiled. I would even love to become an employee of yours if you looking or thinking of maybe doing something like that. Belive me Harry. . . I know where to go, I know who to talk to, and trust me, I know how to talk there talk ! ! Please let me know your feelings on this. Now as far as the new info you have given me on "Secrets" Again, WOW !! Part of me saoid "Fantastic" part of me said "Whats this guy smoking" but all of me said "This could really be big"! ! There are so many facets to this and each and everyone of them can play back on each other. Or just one and only one could work and it still would be big. What I really found funny was that you mentioned the Levins and their E8 project. Bennett Levin and I have become close friends over the past year or so. And of course I've been following the restoration project (from a far via cyber space) of the E8s. Bennett and I trade e-mails at least 4 or 5 times a week and he has be sending me pictures and keeping me posted on the work and also the up coming plans (all off the record) for the units when finished. . . which them are now. When you first sent me "Secrets" (this is the "funny"part) I felt I just had to show this to someone (built in marketing devise). . . Bennett was the person I sent it to ! ! I told him that I didn't know any more about it than what I was sending him. I told him that at that time it was for his eyes only. And I told him I would fill him in when I knew more. He Loved It ! And why not! ! So when you started talking about the Levins and the E8s and about plans of bringing them into the master plan. . . well I really had to laugh. Small world. The E8s will be on the point of the excursion trains around The Curve at Railfest 2001 in Altoona. Bennett will also have his private car The Pennsylvania #120 on the rear of the train. Should be quite a site. PRR E8s back to back around The Curve in the glorious fall colors. . . Just the way God and the PRR intended it ! And all the more reason that Railfest is a great to market "Secrets" ! ! ! I've rambled on enough for this trip. Please get back at me with your thoughts and feelings on all the above. . . and I'll keep "teasing" people with "Secrets". . . its really been quite fun. . . I'm being very mysterious with it as the subject mather demands! ! I Love It !!! Chow Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Check This Out ! Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:13:14 -0400 Listers, After checking out the "trailer" (nice animation) I say it is going to be an online detective game. It says there are over 3,000 murders so I would guess that there can be plenty of permutations. What's more interesting is Harry Weber (www.harrywebber.com/secrets.html) if you go to his home page and leaf though it you'll find out that Mr. Weber is an advertising "god". >From the website: "Starting with the famous route of The Phoebe Snow, the Delaware, Lackawanna & Western and working his way up to the mighty Pennsylvania Railroad,(PRR content) the 14 year old commercial artist traveled from New York to Harrisburg and Scranton promoting safe work practices in America's most dangerous industry." He went on to create major ad campaigns including: Stuck on Band-Aid There's a Ford in your Future the dancing cat for Chow-chow-chow-chow Thanks I needed that Quality is Job 1 Just for the taste of it(diet coke) A mind is a terrible thing to waste Pretty cool site Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Check This Out ! Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 10:02:34 -0700 From: "John Cooper" Cool animation but what's up with the signals? We had reverse diagonal over reverse diagonal, vertical over vertical changing to vertical over diagonal, horizontal over horizontal, ... John > ---------- > From: JONS6755@aol.com[SMTP:JONS6755@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 5:50 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Check This Out ! > > Fellow Pennsy Fans, > Check this out! This is the first "taste" of something thats in > the works that I think is going to be very big. Stay tune for > updates. . . Be sure to have your sound on. . . And Enjoy ! ! > HREF="http://www.harrywebber.com/secrets.html"> > Secrets Of The Broadway Limited > It may take a little bit to download, But it's well worth the wait! > > Jon Sbordone > PRRT&HS #3079 > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 13:14:11 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Check This Out ! From: Jerry Britton On 8/9/01 1:02 PM, John Cooper (johncoop@microsoft.com) wrote: > Cool animation but what's up with the signals? We had reverse diagonal > over reverse diagonal, vertical over vertical changing to vertical over > diagonal, horizontal over horizontal, ... It could get worse...if the person behind this isn't a PRR historian and is just a writer creating a mystery, we could get...yikes!...vista domes!!! Or how 'bout F7's in Tuscan five stripe a la Athearn! I agree, though, the animations are great! >> ---------- >> From: JONS6755@aol.com[SMTP:JONS6755@aol.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 5:50 PM >> To: prr-talk@dsop.com >> Subject: [PRR] Check This Out ! >> >> Fellow Pennsy Fans, >> Check this out! This is the first "taste" of something thats in >> the works that I think is going to be very big. Stay tune for >> updates. . . Be sure to have your sound on. . . And Enjoy ! ! >> > HREF="http://www.harrywebber.com/secrets.html"> >> Secrets Of The Broadway Limited ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Tender Identification Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 19:40:20 -0400 HELP!!! Can anyone point me to a good reference to help with identifying PRR tenders? The problem with having so many books and magazines is not having the information in them inventoried. I believe one of the Keystones had an article on tenders but I haven't gotten to it yet. I tend to get sidetracked when I start looking through them. Thanks in advance for the help. Also thanks to those who gave me info on the Knox and Kane RR. ---Greg Stone member PRRT&HS special interest Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty \(The Cos\)" Subject: RE: [PRR] Tender Identification Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 22:08:54 -0400 I have the Tenders - Classification and Description from June 2 1952 @ http://www.wsbcos.com/tenders.htm It may not be what you are looking for. But it does have a general description of most all of the tenders. I think Jerry has it on one of his CD's too! Cos Cos Communications, Inc. Home Page Rail Road Pages -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Greg Stone Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 7:40 PM To: PRR-Talk Subject: [PRR] Tender Identification HELP!!! Can anyone point me to a good reference to help with identifying PRR tenders? The problem with having so many books and magazines is not having the information in them inventoried. I believe one of the Keystones had an article on tenders but I haven't gotten to it yet. I tend to get sidetracked when I start looking through them. Thanks in advance for the help. Also thanks to those who gave me info on the Knox and Kane RR. ---Greg Stone member PRRT&HS special interest Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender Identification Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 21:22:19 -0500 Greg--The Keystone Spring, 1988, will be helpful for the 11,000 and 13,000 gal. tenders. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] broadway website Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 23:22:09 -0400 Gotta agree on the cool graphics... The "Smart communications" that the site is registered to is an ad agency (apparently started by Harry Webber..) The same one Athearn uses in their ads... and the multilingual under construction page seems's to be Network Solutions standard page for sites not up and running yet... So whatever it is, they have a budget large enough to hire an ad agency! They tout their Athearn work at: http://www.harrywebber.com/harrywebber/work/printwork/athearn.html Rob -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Steven Hanlon Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 8:54 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] broadway website At 10:15 PM 8/8/01 -0500, prrbill wrote: JONS6755@aol.com wrote: > > Fellow Pennsy Fans, > Check this out! This is the first "taste" of something thats in > the works that I think is going to be very big. Stay tune for > updates. . . Be sure to have your sound on. . . And Enjoy ! ! > > Secrets Of The Broadway Limited > It may take a little bit to download, But it's well worth the wait! the site looks very nice. looks like a bad suspense book in the works. It is one sharp site with great graphics (Flash animation?) that certainly promises great things. Hope it delivers! BTW, they say to visit site which is under construction. The "under construction" signage is multi-lingual so speculation: computer game, Nintendo-type game, book, what? i doubt it is a computer game. if it is, it is very low budget. the site is hosted thru worldnic and the contact point is a dialup ISP account. not very "professional" for a computer software company. WHOIS: Registrant: smart communications, inc. (THEBROADWAYLTD-DOM) 3151 Cahuenga Blvd. Los Angeles, CA 90068 snip... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 01:25:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] more PRR documents for download I have recently uploaded these Employe Time-Tables: Chicago Terminal Division No. 13 (Effective September 25, 1949) Delmarva Division No. 5 (Effective April 25, 1954) New York Region No. 5 (Effective April 27, 1958) Philadelphia District No. 9 (Effective October 30, 1955) Williamsport Division No. 9 (Effective September 25, 1949) and this Track Chart: Middle Division Branches Track Chart (Correct to January 1, 1942) to http://prr.dementia.org/documents The track chart is the first I've scanned, and per a suggestion from Rob Schoenberg I tried to set it up so that when Acrobat Reader is set to view the document in continuous mode that the result is useful. However, I'm open to suggestions as to how the presentation might be improved. Please send such directly to shadow@dementia.org -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 00:05:10 -0800 From: Harry Webber Subject: [PRR] The "Secrets of the Broadway Limited" Are Exactly That.. Dear List, We have noted with great interest the degree of speculation which has surrounded the discovery of the "secrets" page on our web server. Let me first and foremost state that this page was not meant for public viewing and was posted as a prototype for the production team and research purposes only. Although we greatly appreciate the many complements and were quite amused by several of the critiques, let me assure you, a huge amount of painstaking research has and will continue to go into each and every frame of "Secrets of the Broadway Limited". What you have seen is a mere shadow of what is to be. And what it is to be must unfortunately remain "a secret" for now...but not for long. Respectfully, Harry Webber ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 08:39:45 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Life Like is Going Nuts!!! From: Jerry Britton For those not on the "Merchandise Announce" list, I'll share that this week Life Like has announced no less than FIVE HO scale locomotives relevant to PRR modelers. Since no discussion has occurred on the list, I must assume that the word is not getting out! In fact, Life Like hasn't even updated their web site yet! For info, please see http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/ms_ar.html Note that the AR page now spans two pages, so don't miss the link at the bottom...there are PRR items on page two! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 09:43:59 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Track Detectors in 1950's From: Jerry Britton What were the track detector announcements like in the 1950's? I'm especially interested in the announcers at AQUEDUCT, SCOTCH RUN, and LILLY. If I applied todays announcers, one might sound like PRR...DETECTOR...MILEPOST 122.3...TRACK ONE...NO DEFECTS What might one have reported in the mid-50's? Where were the detectors east of, and closest to, Harrisburg? Perhaps at ROY? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 12:51:50 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Penn Station in Baltimore to get hotel From: Jerry Britton >From the wire yesterday... Penn Station in Baltimore to get hotel   Amtrak plans to open a 72-room hotel inside Pennsylvania Station in Baltimore over the next two years, the Baltimore Sun reported.   A Maryland developer will begin construction next year, and then the following year convert upper-floor offices into guest rooms. The hotel will be reached from the station¹s lobby. An operator for the hotel, which will cost $5 million, has not yet been named.   "This development is a terrific example of how Amtrak can leverage its assets," Amtrak spokeswoman Karen Dunn told the newspaper. "Amtrak can provide other things besides rail service."   Amtrak also is considering building a hotel adjacent to 30th Street Station in Philadelphia.   ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 13:39:21 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR O SCALE FOR SALE (2nd Try) In a message dated 8/9/01 10:26:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: forwarded to me; thought some list members might be interested: Pacific Limited, PRR, H21a, mint PSC, PRR, H25, mint PSC, PRR, R-7, FP, mint PSC, PFE, R-30-21, FP, mint Overland, PRR, H-32, mint P Co, PRR, D78R, mint Westside, PRR, "J" tender, mint Weaver, PRR, K-4, TRO Sunset N&W J (mint)w/5 Weaver Pass cars (mint) Regards, Ed Kelly 1-302-234-2089 I have a pair of Pacific Limited Hoppers, mint, in the original black boxes: one H-21a and one H-22a, which I would like to sell for $625 selling the pair only Price includes packaging and insured shipping via U.P.S. anywhere "Conus" Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 13:28:59 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Tender Identification Hi Greg, Sorry for the empty message - I hit the send key by mistake! You've hit on a real challenge, and one that's taken me several years to deal with. There are a few sources that can be used. The first of these is the Keystone articles on Kiesel tenders, which gives you photos and rough drawings of the 11,000, 13,000 and 18,000 gallon tenders and their many incarnations. The second is the MR Steam Locomotive Cyclopedia published by Kalmbach. This book has a number of excellent dtrawings and photographs. Finally, Pennsy Power 1 and to a lesser extent, PPII have excellent descriptions of tenders used in the text for each loco class, and often label the tender in the photo (although they get some wrong ...) . Now, I have to warn you, if you start caring about this subject, you get labeled a "rivet counter" and "SPF" ;^) and you'll never be able to look at another Bowser tender the same again...Once upon a time I was in the process of trying to photograph every accurate model PRR tender I could as well as scanning some photos to provide the sort of database you're talking about...just haven't gotten to it yet! Happy Rails Bruce >HELP!!! >Can anyone point me to a good reference to help with identifying PRR >tenders? The problem with having so many books and magazines is not having >the information in them inventoried. I believe one of the Keystones had an >article on tenders but I haven't gotten to it yet. I tend to get sidetracked >when I start looking through them. >Thanks in advance for the help. >Also thanks to those who gave me info on the Knox and Kane RR. >---Greg Stone >member PRRT&HS >special interest Renovo Yards > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "?d ???s" Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Detectors in 1950's Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 13:35:57 -0500 Jerry and the List: I think that the hotbox detectors in the 1950's were not the talking type. I believe how it worked back then was when a train crossed over and activated the detector, the output was sent to a nearby tower. The output was printed out on a 3-4 inch wide roll of graph paper. The tower operator would observe the graph ( like a ticker tape) as the train crossed over it. The detector would record the temperature for each axle and scribe it onto the roll of graph paper. The resulting plotted line would resemble something like a heartbeat, the plot would go up for every journal box since it was naturally warmer than in between the axles. I think that each rail was recorded on the same plot. If the recorded temperature was higher than a prescribed threshold, a hot box was detected and an alarm would sound. The tower operator would promptly notify the train of the hotbox. By counting the number of spikes on the graph, the hotbox and its associated car could be identified and relayed to the train crew. I do not know how dragging equipment or high-wide equipment output was like but it may have been similar to the hotbax detector. I believe that the hotbox detector that the Pennsy used in the 1950's was from the Servo Corppration. At any rate, I think that "talking" detectors did not make there appearance until after Pennsy was gone (Penn Central). I hope this helps. Please feel free to clarify, add, or rebutt. Ted Andrews Carmel, In >From: Jerry Britton >To: PRR-Talk LIST >Subject: [PRR] Track Detectors in 1950's >Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 09:43:59 -0400 > >What were the track detector announcements like in the 1950's? > >I'm especially interested in the announcers at AQUEDUCT, SCOTCH RUN, and >LILLY. > >If I applied todays announcers, one might sound like > > PRR...DETECTOR...MILEPOST 122.3...TRACK ONE...NO DEFECTS > >What might one have reported in the mid-50's? > >Where were the detectors east of, and closest to, Harrisburg? Perhaps at >ROY? >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com >For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net >Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 14:41:20 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Detectors in 1950's From: Jerry Britton On 8/10/01 2:35 PM, ?d ???s (ted_andrews@msn.com) wrote: > I do not know how dragging equipment or high-wide equipment output was like > but it may have been similar to the hotbax detector. I believe that the > hotbox detector that the Pennsy used in the 1950's was from the Servo > Corppration. I have a copy of a 1950's promo film done by the PRR. It shows the dragging equipment detectors. They looked like they had, basically, Mom's good dinner plates standing vertically between the rails. If there was dragging equipment, it would break the plate and sound an alarm. I assume a new "plate" would have to be manually replaced. If I hadn't seen the video showing the plate break, I wouldn't have believed it. I imagine they soon thereafter found a way to "knock the plate over" and reset it remotely, or something not requiring a manual reset. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Track Detectors in 1950's Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:00:53 -0400 Jerry wrote: I have a copy of a 1950's promo film done by the PRR. It shows the dragging equipment detectors. They looked like they had, basically, Mom's good dinner plates standing vertically between the rails. If there was dragging equipment, it would break the plate and sound an alarm. I assume a new "plate" would have to be manually replaced. If I hadn't seen the video showing the plate break, I wouldn't have believed it. Jerry and Listers, Did the video say it set off an alarm or was the detector near a tower and someone came out and checked the plates to see if they were broken. Chris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:07:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Detectors in 1950's From: Jerry Britton On 8/10/01 3:00 PM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > I have a copy of a 1950's promo film done by the PRR. It shows the dragging > equipment detectors. They looked like they had, basically, Mom's good dinner > plates standing vertically between the rails. If there was dragging > equipment, it would break the plate and sound an alarm. > > I assume a new "plate" would have to be manually replaced. If I hadn't seen > the video showing the plate break, I wouldn't have believed it. > > > > Jerry and Listers, > > Did the video say it set off an alarm or was the detector near a tower and > someone came out and checked the plates to see if they were broken. > > By recollection, I don't think it said. In modern times, there are few towers, so the detectors seem to be out in the middle of nowhere at times. However, 50 years ago towers were so prevalent, perhaps detectors were always by towers. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:11:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Detectors in 1950's From: Jerry Britton On 8/10/01 3:02 PM, DATSMan@aol.com (DATSMan@aol.com) wrote: > Sorry Jerry, but talking detectors weren't introduced until the mid 80's as I > remember, maybe a bit earlier. Before that detectors were either read by > block operators or dispatchers and the train was called by radio. Some > dragging equipment detectors were tied into the signal system and set signals > to stop in advance of the rain if they activated one. > Okay, then, in the 1950's would there be "any" kind of radio/trainphone chatter that would announce a train's passing? I am looking for a prototypical way to have a computer make an announcement on a model layout when a train is about to exit hidden areas and enter the visible layout. If there's not a prototypical/era way to do it, I may stick with the verbal detectors and call it "modeler's license". ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 14:20:09 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Detectors in 1950's Ted sez: >I do not know how dragging equipment or high-wide equipment output was like >but it may have been similar to the hotbax detector. I believe that the >hotbox detector that the Pennsy used in the 1950's was from the Servo >Corppration. The DEDs installed on the A&S in 1938 were pictured in the Nov 12, 1938 issue of Railway Age. THe DEDs were installed in any approach to an interlocking and consisted of cast iron members, parallel to the tie and wired in series. THere was one outside the rail and two inside with thier tops about even with the rail head. Dragging train gear strikes the member, breaking it, and interrupting the circuit to a relay, activating wayside and cab signals. I will be modeling this detail, for sure...now if it will really be active? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:27:59 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Detectors in 1950's Jerry, How about just having an approach lighted signal come on? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: (in part) . . . > I am looking for a prototypical way to have a computer make an announcement > on a model layout when a train is about to exit hidden areas and enter the > visible layout. > > If there's not a prototypical/era way to do it, I may stick with the verbal > detectors and call it "modeler's license". > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:31:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Detectors in 1950's From: Jerry Britton On 8/10/01 3:20 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > The DEDs installed on the A&S in 1938 were pictured in the Nov 12, 1938 > issue of Railway Age. THe DEDs were installed in any approach to an > interlocking and consisted of cast iron members, parallel to the tie and > wired in series. THere was one outside the rail and two inside with thier > tops about even with the rail head. Dragging train gear strikes the > member, breaking it, and interrupting the circuit to a relay, activating > wayside and cab signals. > > I will be modeling this detail, for sure...now if it will really be active? > Actually, the basis for it is already there, Bruce, since you are also a Digitrax user. If you isolate the sections of your track that represent the detectors and, rather than wiring them direct, wire them through a Digitrax BDL-16 ($125 per 16 blocks of detection), this will allow for LocoNet feedback as to whether or not the block is occupied. Then, with a product such as Railroad & Co.'s "TrainController" ($169), you can monitor this block for the "event" of a new occupancy (vs. a constant state of "occupied"). This is the process I am planning to use to play WAV files as verbal detectors. You can program all sorts of actions, including SIGNALS as you allude to. However, since the above is all in place, I think it would be very easy to convince the software publisher to add in a variable that would "x percent of the time" trip an alternate action. This would represent the failure rate for a hot box, dragging equipment, etc. It could then trigger stop signals, delays, etc. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:31:42 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Detectors in 1950's From: Jerry Britton On 8/10/01 3:27 PM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > How about just having an approach lighted signal come on? > Not "cool" enough! ;-) > > ================================================== > Jerry Britton wrote: (in part) > . . . >> I am looking for a prototypical way to have a computer make an announcement >> on a model layout when a train is about to exit hidden areas and enter the >> visible layout. >> >> If there's not a prototypical/era way to do it, I may stick with the verbal >> detectors and call it "modeler's license". ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 14:52:33 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Detectors in 1950's Jerry sez: >If you isolate the sections of your track that represent the detectors and, >rather than wiring them direct, wire them through a Digitrax BDL-16 ($125 >per 16 blocks of detection), this will allow for LocoNet feedback as to >whether or not the block is occupied. Well, I wouldn't exactly use them for block occupancy, since I'll had BDL-16s doing that to drive the appropriate signals. However, I was thinking that they could actually be used to detect dragging equipment, especially low couplers ;^) This could be done easily and I think the output would still run throught the BDL-16. >This is the process I am planning to use to play WAV files as verbal >detectors. You can program all sorts of actions, including SIGNALS as you >allude to. As for your "problem", why don't you have a "background" of the tower operators phone calls, since they are the ones reporting trains anyway. >However, since the above is all in place, I think it would be very easy to >convince the software publisher to add in a variable that would "x percent >of the time" trip an alternate action. This would represent the failure rate >for a hot box, dragging equipment, etc. It could then trigger stop signals, >delays, etc. I love it! Don't forget I'll also have slide fences on the C&PD . Actually, I think that the ops crew will be mad enough when I take the double track out of service for catenary/track work and use SMITH as manned block station! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Matthew J. Brown" Subject: [PRR] Drawings of steam classes A5, C1? Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 13:34:13 -0700 I'm doing a PRR steam module for the Railway 32 screensaver (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/railway32/) and while I have drawn a large number of locomotive classes, two major ones I don't have are the A5 and C1, because I don't have any drawings of them and therefore can't get them accurately to scale. I could guess them out, but I'd rather not. The drawings don't have to be very detailed; a PRR equipment diagram like on prr.railfan.net is fine, so long as I have major dimensions. Railway 32 trains are drawn to a scale of 3 pixels per foot, so we're talking pretty tiny representations. If anyone has something they can send me (e.g. equipment diagram scans) or any pointers where to look (books, magazine issues, etc) I'd be most grateful. Thanks in advance, -Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:43:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Detectors in 1950's From: Jerry Britton On 8/10/01 3:52 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. at (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >> This is the process I am planning to use to play WAV files as verbal >> detectors. You can program all sorts of actions, including SIGNALS as you >> allude to. > > As for your "problem", why don't you have a "background" of the tower > operators phone calls, since they are the ones reporting trains anyway. That's why I sent a follow up about "was there other types of train reporting going on via radio/trainphone". You mention telephone. Is that how a tower would report a train's passing in the 1950's? How might such a conversation sound? There's gotta be someone on the list that worked a tower? > >> However, since the above is all in place, I think it would be very easy to >> convince the software publisher to add in a variable that would "x percent >> of the time" trip an alternate action. This would represent the failure rate >> for a hot box, dragging equipment, etc. It could then trigger stop signals, >> delays, etc. > > I love it! Don't forget I'll also have slide fences on the C&PD . > Actually, I think that the ops crew will be mad enough when I take the > double track out of service for catenary/track work and use SMITH as manned > block station! > Slide fences...good one! I know I've been thinking more creatively ever since I heard DCC'ers were putting two decoders into a Bowser T-1 so they could program the "slip" of the wheels! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 17:21:37 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Detectors in 1950's In a message dated 8/10/01 3:52:11 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << That's why I sent a follow up about "was there other types of train reporting going on via radio/trainphone". You mention telephone. Is that how a tower would report a train's passing in the 1950's? How might such a conversation sound? There's gotta be someone on the list that worked a tower? >> I was going to chime in and suggest the tower conversation. I picked up PRR Power Vol. 4 video at a swap meet, but ran it without sound so not to wake my wife (TV in bedroom). It includes a recording of PRR block operators and train dispatcher at work on March 23, 1965. I suspect that conversation could be backdated with not too much trouble, but I'll have to listen to it tonight to see how long and what it covers. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Track Detectors in 1950's Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 14:56:16 -0700 From: "John Cooper" > ---------- > From: Jerry Britton[SMTP:jerry@pennsyrr.com] > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 1:43 PM > To: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.; prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Detectors in 1950's > > That's why I sent a follow up about "was there other types of train > reporting going on via radio/trainphone". You mention telephone. Is > that how > a tower would report a train's passing in the 1950's? How might such a > conversation sound? There's gotta be someone on the list that worked a > tower? > I believe the inter-tower communication was done on dedicated lines. The think the tower operator would speak into a microphone activated by a foot pedal and/or hand switch. A selector box with a number of buttons would determine whether the conversation was sent to an adjacent tower or dispatcher. I believe the operator did not have to select incoming conversation, any incoming message from any source was amplified on the speaker. I believe conversation between towers was fairly simple. One tower would announce to the next the train number, the time past the tower, perhaps the engine number, perhaps train length. The next tower would say "ok, thank you". John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 18:24:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Track Detectors in 1950's In a message dated 8/10/01 4:33:14 PM Central Daylight Time, I wrote: << I picked up PRR Power Vol. 4 video at a swap meet, but ran it without sound so not to wake my wife (TV in bedroom). It includes a recording of PRR block operators and train dispatcher at work on March 23, 1965. >> To amplify, it includes about 6 minutes on the New York division, with Union dispatcher talking to 4 block operators and the passenger drill near Rahway. You wouldn't have to duplicate the 19 orders but the reporting of the trains by the block operators, adapted to your locale, might serve your purpose. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 20:51:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Drawings of steam classes A5, C1? Can't help you with the A-5: the Kalbach Cyclopedia has a drawing of an A-3 and an A-3a (tank type) For a Class "C" Try "Abe's Graphic Charts" (Abe's ABC Charts of Pennsylvania Locomotives) by Frederick "Abe" Goodrich of Floreffe Pa. The original 1941 edition folded up to pocket size: 4" X 8 1/2" - Any that survive in usable condition must be pretty valuable - since "Abe" called his book "ABC" charts I presume those classes were included in the original. The book was dedicated to Pennsy men "on both sides of the Cab" and though the drtawings are to scale - the primary purpose was to help standardize nomeclature - Interesting that the book was a private project - a not an effort of "The Standard of the World" I have a 1960-1970's vintage 8 1/2 X 17" reprint by Richard S. Adanti (Balsam Press - New Hartford N.Y.) no ISBN, Library of Congress numbers or dates just a $12.50 price on the cover, from a long ago PRRT&HS convention (the light blue soft cover has a cut away, tenderless, drawing of C-1 #6227) The other interesting drawing in this book is of an E-2 Atlantic - In spite of the Pa address "Abe" must have been a Lines Westerner. I'm not ready to part with my copy but will make a "photo" if you'll send me an address Can anyone else supply any additional information about "Abe's ABC's" or Richard Adanti's reprint - His "forward" says he stumbled upon Abe's book while trying to compile info to scratch build a C-1 - exactly when he does not say. Dick Ross, Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty \(The Cos\)" Subject: RE: [PRR] Position Light Signals Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 20:55:07 -0400 Mark: I hate to admit it but I can't say. I didn't take pictures of the things along the way - way back then sorry. Cos Cos Communications, Inc. Home Page Rail Road Pages Wayne, do you know when this was converted? Was it possibly a Conrail thing? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: [PRR] HO PRR Brass For Sale Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 22:31:21 -0500 Two engines which look right and run right, detailed, painted and lettered, ready to go to work at a terrific price. Engines owned by Ron Strachan. Ron is getting on in years and these two are near the last of his collection. Red Ball K4 $250 Alco Models E5 $250 Both engines have been completely rebuilt with all possible details added. Both have idler gearboxes and Sagami 2032 motors. Both professionally painted. Contact Ron direct at (850) 932-6814 or email me. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Drawings of steam classes A5, C1? Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 01:04:58 -0400 There's also a book originally put out by Al Staufer called: Pennsylvania Railroad Steam and Electric Locomotive Diagrams. It has many of the PRR equipment diagrams for steam classes that I don't have on my site... I can't find my copy to check for the A5 and C1 but I think they are included... Also, does anyone out there have any equipment drawings that I don't have on my site? I'm really working on completing the collection! I have over 1000 online so far but there are still a couple hundred classes I'm missing! Thanks! Rob http://prr.railfan.net -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Matthew J. Brown Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 4:34 PM To: PRR Talk List Subject: [PRR] Drawings of steam classes A5, C1? I'm doing a PRR steam module for the Railway 32 screensaver (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/railway32/) and while I have drawn a large number of locomotive classes, two major ones I don't have are the A5 and C1, because I don't have any drawings of them and therefore can't get them accurately to scale. I could guess them out, but I'd rather not. The drawings don't have to be very detailed; a PRR equipment diagram like on prr.railfan.net is fine, so long as I have major dimensions. Railway 32 trains are drawn to a scale of 3 pixels per foot, so we're talking pretty tiny representations. If anyone has something they can send me (e.g. equipment diagram scans) or any pointers where to look (books, magazine issues, etc) I'd be most grateful. Thanks in advance, -Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 22:36:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] PRR Drawings of A5s steam shifters Matt, list, Drawings of the A5s class (and several nice shots of A5s 94) appeared in the October 1973 Model Railroader. Hopefully, this will get you started. You can order copies of the article from Kalmbach, pursue the article through interlibrary loan, or peruse back issue collections at train shows to find the article. I am unaware of C1 drawings; if someone knows more, please pipe up. Doug __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 07:33:07 EDT Subject: [PRR] DUS signalling not PRR standard? In a message dated 8/11/01 1:11:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << The systematic implementation of red lenses was limited to locations west and north of Harrisburg. There were exceptions, however (e.g. Dayton; anyone know of others?) Interlocking home signals got the treatment; automatic signals did not. (Did manual block territories get red lenses? Sandusky Branch? Zanesville Branch?) >> Mark, I am well beyond my depth here, but... If the facts are that the home PL signals in Dayton did not use red lamps (whereas other places on Central and Western Regions did?), we should remember that the signals in Dayton are those of the Dayton Union Railway Co., and so are not necessarily PRR standard -- even though you and I "know" that the right of way was made up of recognizable Pennsy components, probably right down to the US&S electropneumatic switches. Nevertheless, the DUS (not to be confused with the Dayton & Union, which was outside town) was a partnership of PRR, NYC, and B&O lines. We need to get into the DUS rule book (still lost in a sea of cartons from this week's move, of course) to examine the aspects described there. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GPandelios@aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 16:54:04 EDT Subject: [PRR] Suggestions for Altoona Visit Folks, I'm going to be in Altoona this week for a couple (2) hours. While I would like another look at The Curve (not the baseball team ;^), I'm debating between the Railroader's Museum and the museum / attractions at Gallitzin. My questions are: * Exactly what does exist at Gallitzin? (I remember seeing signs for a museum) * Any opinions as to what might keep 2 active boys (ages 7 & 3) amused? Thanks, George Modeling the Weirton, WV-Steubenville, OH area in O gauge between 1948-1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 18:22:22 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Suggestions for Altoona Visit While the effort by Gallitzen should not be ignored. Take the kids to the Altoona Museum and see the movie! If you want to treat the kids to a great spot to see the trains march up and down the mountain stop at Cassandra off of RT 22 on South Rt 53 =/- 5 miles. It cant be beat and you can SEE the trains. Bennett Levin GPandelios@aol.com wrote: > > Folks, > > I'm going to be in Altoona this week for a couple (2) hours. While I would > like another look at The Curve (not the baseball team ;^), I'm debating > between the Railroader's Museum and the museum / attractions at Gallitzin. > My questions are: > > * Exactly what does exist at Gallitzin? (I remember seeing signs for a > museum) > * Any opinions as to what might keep 2 active boys (ages 7 & 3) amused? > > Thanks, > > George > > Modeling the Weirton, WV-Steubenville, OH area in O gauge between 1948-1957 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 19:06:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Suggestions for Altoona Visit On Sun, 12 Aug 2001, Bennett Levin wrote: > While the effort by Gallitzen should not be ignored. Take the kids to > the Altoona Museum and see the movie! Last time I was there, which was probably about a month ago, the Jackson St bridge was being replaced, meaning you couldn't just go out and sit on the bridge outside the portals. It *may* be done by now, but I don't know. > If you want to treat the kids to a great spot to see the trains march up > and down the mountain stop at Cassandra off of RT 22 on South Rt 53 =/- > 5 miles. > > It cant be beat and you can SEE the trains. I concur. BTW, where can't you see the trains? -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 19:31:09 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Suggestions for Altoona Visit Derrick J Brashear wrote: > > > BTW, where can't you see the trains? > Answer: At the Curve. This subject resurfaced again this morning with an article in the travel section of the Harrisburg Patriot-News by staff writer Bob Black. He wrote a piece that, while not scathing, expressed his deep disappointment with the viewshed at the Curve visitor park. The story included two photos, one of which showed an approaching eastbound NS freight led by a Dash 9 that was hidden by the vegetation, and the second shot at the heel of the Curve, the only place where visitors get a clear view of the trains. Of course, the vegetation obscures not only the trains but also the substantial difference in elevation from the east side up to the west side, which is really the whole point of seeing a train climb the mountain. Black took note of a sign that has been erected at the visitor center, noting that various requirements pushed the cost of trimming vegetation to $250,000, only part of the funding for which is in place. Thus, the writer expressed the opinion that it was unlikely that vegetation trimming would occur this season. Of course, the reason for this is a combination of issues, mostly (1) the main line no longer sees dozens upon dozens of steam engines daily, with their vegetation-suppressing dusting of acidic cinder fill, and (2) improvements in telecommunications mean that the railroad no longer has to maintain an active telephone/telegraph pole line along its right-of-way. The Railroaders Memorial Museum, which operates the Horseshoe Curve National Historic Site Visitor Center, has taken plenty of heat on this topic from visitors. But since the right-of-way is not museum property, everything hinges on relations with the railroad company. Even when Conrail was at its most cooperative, it took lots of jawboning to get any action, and even then the trimming that did take place was not very extensive. Hope this helps. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (David Hopson) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 19:32:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Suggestions for Altoona Visit Hello George, If you go to the Railroader's Museum first, get the "Guide to the Horseshoe Curve". This book (about $3) will help you get to all the popular railroad locations around Altoona. Last time I was at Horseshoe Curve, the trees blocked the entire view. I don't know if the trees were cut down yet but they are "supposed" to come down this year. Some of us remember when the Curve was free of charge and there were no trees to block the view! Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:00:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Suggestions for Altoona Visit In a message dated 8/12/01 4:32:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cupper@worldnet.att.net writes: << BTW, where can't you see the trains? > Answer: At the Curve. This subject resurfaced again this morning with an article in the travel section of the Harrisburg Patriot-News by staff writer Bob Black. He wrote a piece that, while not scathing, expressed his deep disappointment with the viewshed at the Curve visitor park. The story included two photos, one of which showed an approaching eastbound NS freight led by a Dash 9 that was hidden by the vegetation, and the second shot at the heel of the Curve, the only place where visitors get a clear view of the trains. Of course, the vegetation obscures not only the trains but also the substantial difference in elevation from the east side up to the west side, which is really the whole point of seeing a train climb the mountain. Black took note of a sign that has been erected at the visitor center, noting that various requirements pushed the cost of trimming vegetation to $250,000, only part of the funding for which is in place. Thus, the writer expressed the opinion that it was unlikely that vegetation trimming would occur this season. Of course, the reason for this is a combination of issues, mostly (1) the main line no longer sees dozens upon dozens of steam engines daily, with their vegetation-suppressing dusting of acidic cinder fill, and (2) improvements in telecommunications mean that the railroad no longer has to maintain an active telephone/telegraph pole line along its right-of-way. The Railroaders Memorial Museum, which operates the Horseshoe Curve National Historic Site Visitor Center, has taken plenty of heat on this topic from visitors. But since the right-of-way is not museum property, everything hinges on relations with the railroad company. Even when Conrail was at its most cooperative, it took lots of jawboning to get any action, and even then the trimming that did take place was not very extensive. Hope this helps. Dan Cupper >> Really hope something is done about this before RailFest 2001 in October. There is going be alot of people Curveside to see the PRR E8s of Bennett Levin and they're going to be upset when they can't ! ! Jon Sbordone ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (David Hopson) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 20:21:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Trees at Horseshoe Curve Hello List, We are coming up on the 150 birthday of Horseshoe Curve in 2004. Will the Curve be visable from the park then? I go to Altoona once or twice a year and each time the view gets worse. Last year, I walked up the west side of Horseshoe and you can no longer look across to see the trains coming up the mainline. There are signs up at Horseshoe saying that the National Park Service is going to cut down the trees. It was "supposed" to cost $50.000 to cut the trees from Kittanning Point to the top of the Curve. That was four years ago. 20 men with chainsaws can trim the tree line in less than a week. Now thats just the tree line on track 1. The real sad thing about the trees is that they are going to block the view of the Mr. Levin's PRR E8s. Thats the only reason why a lot of people( including myself) are going to the Railfest this year. REAL SAD!!!!!!!!! Dave Hopson PRRT&HS# 6593 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chuck Friedlein" Subject: [PRR] PRR Passenger Car Models Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 23:10:20 -0400 I'm still unpacking my books, notes, etc., from my move and need some information I haven't yet come across in the boxes. There's over 60 boxes full of books and mags I'm trying to go through--not an easy task at the moment. There's a list somewhere of the Rivarossi passenger cars that were modeled from PRR equipment or are reasonable stand-ins. I've tried looking through Keystone Crossings, but maybe I'm just not using the right search words or something to find it if it's there. I think it was also published in the Keystone many years back, but I haven't found the bos with them it it yet either. Does someone know where i can find this info. online? TIA, Chuck Friedlein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 06:23:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Bobby Bryzinski Subject: [PRR] K4 1361 front end Hello, My name is Bob Bryzinski and I've just subscribed to the list. I have a couple of questions regarding K4 1361. First, does anyone know of a good source for a photo of 1361 before it received the front end refitting (solid drop coupler pilot, repositioned headlight, etc.)? In other photos of K4s that I've seen the train control box (at least that's what I think it is) seems to have originally been placed on top of the pilot. When the K4s received the new solid pilot it seems to have been repositioned to the right running board. But I'm not sure if this was the standard. Where was the train control box on 1361 before it received the new front end? Any help is appreciated, and I look forward to being a part of this list. Thank you, Bob Bryzinski __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 08:52:48 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] P2K 2-8-8-2 PRR Class HH-1 >Guys, > >This all came about when Richard Hendrickson and Larry Grubb (of Life Like) >contacted me regarding the Y-3 and I couldn't answer their questions. The >first questions started out regarding he tender, I quickly put them in touch >with Bruce and I went to work on the paint and lettering scheme for the >project and supplied them with color matches for the locomotive, hopefully >they use them. > >Bruce, correct me if I am wrong but hasn't this been just near a year now? >Things do move slow in our hobby. Actually, about 9 months for me, so probably closer to a year for you . It certainly was an eye opening experience to work with a major manufacturer to "get it right". I think all of us who participated are waiting with excitement/anxiety to see the final product! If you think that the loco is spot on, then please, give the PRRT&HS, Greg and I some credit, but for goodness sake, if there's a mistake, don't blame us!!!!! ;^) These locos are a particular challenge because of the small numbers, short careers, initial wartime photography restrictions, operating area etc. I have yet to see a color photograph, for example, and most B&W photos of the locos were taken when they were so dirty that most of the lettering is invisible! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] Poconos PRR? Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 14:06:37 -0400 I am going to the Poconos next week for vacation. Any PRR or train things to see in that area? How about nice train shops? ==---Greg Stone PRRT&HS member special interest Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Poconos PRR? Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 14:43:51 -0400 Greg, One word Scranton! Steamtown and two train stores almost across the street from each other. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 02:05:11 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Railroad Prototype Modelers Tom, Here I am ... and yes there will be a Prototype Modelers meet in Cleveland in October and I have included Jim Six in this note so he can respond to the question and as he replies to me I will forward it to the list as he will not be able to post it direct. Plus this is a PRR town so bring your models and show them off, remember check your ego at the door... Greg Martin ================================================ Tom Hayden writes: Back in April, Greg Martin posted a note that there would be a RPM meet in Cleveland in Oct 2001. I have seen nothing since and have been unable to reach Greg by e-mail. The RPM website has no info either. Does anybody on this list have any info? Thanks, Tom Hayden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR #6200 S2 Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 12:06:30 -0400 Group, Does anybody have a top view picture of the S2? I am looking for detail of the smoke stacks. Do they have 4 separate stacks or 1 unit? Also what is the squareish box on the top of the pilot? Looks to me to have a screen mesh in the front. What did this do? Thanks in advance Sam Vastano _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:27:07 -0400 Subject: [PRR] "Magic Brook", etc. From: Jerry Britton Anyone want to own a genuine PRR sleeper? The "Magic Brook" is for sale for $15,000. http://www.trains-trams-trolleys.com/equipment/sleep.dine.lounge/5009/ To bad a 12-5 doesn't offer much to the collector...only cars with lounges seem to have worthwhile use. Shipping may be a bit expensive...the car is in Mexico! The same site also has two of what appear to be B-60's for $10,000 http://www.trains-trams-trolleys.com/equipment/misc/9007/ http://www.trains-trams-trolleys.com/equipment/misc/9008/ And a PRR B-70 for only $8,000! http://www.trains-trams-trolleys.com/equipment/misc/9022/ ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:42:20 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] "Magic Brook", etc. From: Jerry Britton On 8/14/01 2:27 PM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > Anyone want to own a genuine PRR sleeper? > > The "Magic Brook" is for sale for $15,000. Sorry, $25,000. All other prices quoted were correct. > > http://www.trains-trams-trolleys.com/equipment/sleep.dine.lounge/5009/ > ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:56:10 -0400 From: Dave Pfeiffer Subject: [PRR] Railfest (was Suggestions for Altoona Visit) question for Bennett: Do you know if your E's will be running unassisted during Railfest, or will NS be adding "protection"? I assume the cars will be mostly Amtrak for which you have HEP in one of your units. Correct? Thanks. Dave Pfeiffer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 15:18:59 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Railfest (was Suggestions for Altoona Visit) From: Jerry Britton On 8/14/01 2:56 PM, Dave Pfeiffer (dpfeiffr@popmail.voicenet.com) wrote: > Do you know if your E's will be running unassisted during Railfest, or > will NS be adding "protection"? I assume the cars will be mostly Amtrak > for which you have HEP in one of your units. Correct? > Perhaps only Bennett can clarify if anything is different, but unfortunately, they usually run the excursions with one unit on each end. That way, they go forward up the mountain, around the UN-AR loop and down, facing east. Yet that leaves the other loco now facing west to lead the next excursion. Therefore, don't expect to see a double-headed passenger train with two E's at the head end. Expect one at each end. However, this year could be different. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 15:45:37 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Railfest (was Suggestions for Altoona Visit) This year WILl BE different. Back to back as God and Martin Worthington Clement intended! No push pull for these throughbreds! On four of the seven trips the 120 on the rear, and the Dover Harbor will be on the rear for the other three. Listen for the sound of M-3's at the Brickyard. The only thing that will distroy the view will be the FRA mandated ditchlights! The excursion from Harrisburg includes a trip around the curve, full admission to everything and a free ticket on the 7PM Amtrak train back to Harrisburg. Terrific Deal! Check out the Altoona museum's home page. See you all at the Brick Yard! Bennett Jerry Britton wrote: > > On 8/14/01 2:56 PM, Dave Pfeiffer (dpfeiffr@popmail.voicenet.com) wrote: > > > Do you know if your E's will be running unassisted during Railfest, or > > will NS be adding "protection"? I assume the cars will be mostly Amtrak > > for which you have HEP in one of your units. Correct? > > > Perhaps only Bennett can clarify if anything is different, but > unfortunately, they usually run the excursions with one unit on each end. > That way, they go forward up the mountain, around the UN-AR loop and down, > facing east. Yet that leaves the other loco now facing west to lead the next > excursion. > > Therefore, don't expect to see a double-headed passenger train with two E's > at the head end. Expect one at each end. > > However, this year could be different. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 16:51:53 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] "Magic Brook", etc. There is an error in the photo URLs on the MAGIC BROOK page. The links to 2-4 don't work. However this can be fixed. Go to photo 1, then in the "location" box at the top of your browser, insert the numbers 1, 2, and 3 in turn, immediately after the "int" and before the ".jpg", then press ENTER. At least one of these pix is a nice color photo of a prewar PRR Pullman interior. The upholstery is blue! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > > Anyone want to own a genuine PRR sleeper? > > The "Magic Brook" is for sale for $15,000. > > http://www.trains-trams-trolleys.com/equipment/sleep.dine.lounge/5009/ > > To bad a 12-5 doesn't offer much to the collector...only cars with lounges > seem to have worthwhile use. > > Shipping may be a bit expensive...the car is in Mexico! > > The same site also has two of what appear to be B-60's for $10,000 > > http://www.trains-trams-trolleys.com/equipment/misc/9007/ > http://www.trains-trams-trolleys.com/equipment/misc/9008/ > > And a PRR B-70 for only $8,000! > > http://www.trains-trams-trolleys.com/equipment/misc/9022/ > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 17:15:16 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] "Magic Brook", etc. Jerry, I think the listing is a misprint. The "B-70" appears to be a "P70" with substantial window rearrangement! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > > Anyone want to own a genuine PRR sleeper? > > The "Magic Brook" is for sale for $15,000. > > http://www.trains-trams-trolleys.com/equipment/sleep.dine.lounge/5009/ > > To bad a 12-5 doesn't offer much to the collector...only cars with lounges > seem to have worthwhile use. > > Shipping may be a bit expensive...the car is in Mexico! > > The same site also has two of what appear to be B-60's for $10,000 > > http://www.trains-trams-trolleys.com/equipment/misc/9007/ > http://www.trains-trams-trolleys.com/equipment/misc/9008/ > > And a PRR B-70 for only $8,000! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 14:31:57 -0800 From: Harry Webber Subject: [PRR] Altoona Helper Assignments in 1949-1950 Fellow List Members: As the departure date(Sept.1) for "Secrets Of the Broadway Ltd" draws near, we are desperatly striving for historic accuracy. Our saga will start with the debut of the "Blue Ribbon" equipped Broadway on March 15,1949. Our question is, In the early part of 1949, what would the likly helper power for the Broadway have been? We know that the ill-fated BP60 Centipedes were down graded to BP50's and assigned to the Altoona helper pool in 1949-1950. Our question is, would management have risked the fire-prone BP50's on such a high profile run or would they have assigned a 3-unit E7 out of Harrisburg. Second question. What was the likelyhood that a road Forman of Engines would have been in the cab between Altoona and Harrisburgh? Any help or insight would be greatly appriciated. Harry Webber > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 20:35:10 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: Altoona Helper Assignments in 1949-1950 From: Jerry Britton On 8/14/01 6:31 PM, Harry Webber at (smartcommco@earthlink.net) wrote: > As the departure date(Sept.1) for "Secrets Of the Broadway Ltd" draws near, > we are desperatly striving for historic accuracy. Our saga will start with > the debut of the "Blue Ribbon" equipped Broadway on March 15,1949. Our > question is, In the early part of 1949, what would the likly helper power > for > the Broadway have been? We know that the ill-fated BP60 Centipedes were > down graded to BP50's and assigned to the Altoona helper pool in 1949-1950. MP229 issued 11/1/52 shows BH-50 helpers. However, its predecessor issue, issued 3/1/52, does not show any. Therefore, 1949-1950 is too early for Centipedes as helpers. They were still in passenger service. You should consult Eric Hersimaki's "Black Gold Black Diamonds, Volume Two" for info on helpers during this period (p. 93). I know for sure that F-3's were in service. Take note that F-3's geared for helper service had an additional yellow stripe painted across the doors. The aforementioned book covers this and provides photos. Also, helpers on passenger trains ran at the head end; they did not push (safety reasons). > Our question is, would management have risked the fire-prone BP50's on such > a high profile run or would they have assigned a 3-unit E7 out of > Harrisburg. Very possible. The year suits the unit. Definitely E-8's until 1950. Another motive power possibility yet in 1949 was the T-1. I imagine the B'way would have been dieselized, for sure. 1949 saw the PRR in the midst of everything diesel for passenger service: Alco PA's, Baldwin BP-20's and BP-60's, EMD E-7's, and Erie-builts (dual service, at first). > > Second question. What was the likelyhood that a road Forman of Engines > would have been in the cab between Altoona and Harrisburgh? > Not very often, but possible. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 21:56:22 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Passenger Car Models Chuck Friedlein wrote: There's a list somewhere of the Rivarossi passenger cars that were modeled from PRR equipment or are reasonable stand-ins. I've tried looking through > Keystone Crossings, but maybe I'm just not using the right search words or > something to find it if it's there. > > I think it was also published in the Keystone many years back, but I haven't > found the bos with them it it yet either. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Chuck- Try these- http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/passclass_xref.html http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/sug_models.html Regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 18:38:38 -0800 From: Harry Webber Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Altoona Helper Assignments in 1949-1950 Thanks Jerry, Gregg Martin told me about the helper stripe on the F3's. I don't have access to the book you mentioned but would that extra door stripe be above the kick plate, at the door handle (?) Thank God we don't have to render all those wheels on the BP-50's ;-> You're a life saver. Harry Jerry Britton wrote: > On 8/14/01 6:31 PM, Harry Webber at (smartcommco@earthlink.net) wrote: > > > As the departure date(Sept.1) for "Secrets Of the Broadway Ltd" draws near, > > we are desperatly striving for historic accuracy. Our saga will start with > > the debut of the "Blue Ribbon" equipped Broadway on March 15,1949. Our > > question is, In the early part of 1949, what would the likly helper power > > for > > the Broadway have been? We know that the ill-fated BP60 Centipedes were > > down graded to BP50's and assigned to the Altoona helper pool in 1949-1950. > > MP229 issued 11/1/52 shows BH-50 helpers. However, its predecessor issue, > issued 3/1/52, does not show any. Therefore, 1949-1950 is too early for > Centipedes as helpers. They were still in passenger service. > > You should consult Eric Hersimaki's "Black Gold Black Diamonds, Volume Two" > for info on helpers during this period (p. 93). I know for sure that F-3's > were in service. Take note that F-3's geared for helper service had an > additional yellow stripe painted across the doors. The aforementioned book > covers this and provides photos. > > Also, helpers on passenger trains ran at the head end; they did not push > (safety reasons). > > > Our question is, would management have risked the fire-prone BP50's on such > > a high profile run or would they have assigned a 3-unit E7 out of > > Harrisburg. > > Very possible. The year suits the unit. Definitely E-8's until 1950. > > Another motive power possibility yet in 1949 was the T-1. I imagine the > B'way would have been dieselized, for sure. > > 1949 saw the PRR in the midst of everything diesel for passenger service: > Alco PA's, Baldwin BP-20's and BP-60's, EMD E-7's, and Erie-builts (dual > service, at first). > > > > Second question. What was the likelyhood that a road Forman of Engines > > would have been in the cab between Altoona and Harrisburgh? > > > Not very often, but possible. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Helper Assignments in 1949-1950 Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 21:55:17 -0500 Harry--For helpers on the Broadway in 1949 the most common assigned engines would be K4, T1, and L1, probably in that order, but certainly the K4 was most common. The three unit E7 set you mentioned might have been assigned as road power, but not as helpers. No F3's--they were freight only. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 21:37:36 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Makeup of Trains Hi Jerry, Thanks for the fascinating response. > I'm modeling Harrisburg in 9/54. The following comes from a variety of > sources, including the "Makeup of Trains: New York Division" from 4/54, as > well as PTT's from 9/54. I've included trains with not only NYNH&H cars, > but also those that carried PRR cars from those cities. Some of what I found to be the more interesting snippets from your post... > Express.....P.X.T. to Birmingham (R50) (To No. 203 at Pittsburgh). Amazing how many places PRR headend cars traveled to. Birmingham, AL I assume, right? > Cabin.....Boston to Pittsburgh Did the PRR cabin car really run thru to/from Boston, as this statement implies? > Express.....Hartford to St. Louis (R50) (To No. 27 at Pittsburgh). > Express.....South Norwalk to Chicago (R50) (To No. 99 at Pittsburgh). > Express.....Boston to Pittsburgh (R50) So what would this car have been hauling from Hartford CT to St. Louis MO? Seafood? Non-refrigerated items (magazines?)? Deadhead move? Ditto for South Norwalk CT? Ditto Boston? > Express.....Boston to Harrisburg (R50 or X29) Harrisburg: Remove. Now I would guess this is a non-refrigerated load we are hauling here, as there is a choice of car classes. > Express.....P.X.T. to Columbus (R50) (To No. 203 at Pittsburgh). > Express.....P.X.T. to Birmingham (R50) (To No. 203 at Pittsburgh). I guess I always assumed R50b cars would be loaded at the shipper's siding, not at a general freight/express house such as PXT. But perhaps the shipper simply trucked the lading to PXT, backed the truck up to the loading doors on the car, and then loaded up the R50b that way. Finally, I found it interesting how few of the B60b cars were specified as messenger cars - the vast majority are plain baggage. This further confirms what Doug Nelson and I had concluded already - that messenger-equipped B60b cars definitely constituted a minority portion of the entire B60b fleet. Fascinating reading indeed! - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 21:37:37 -0700 Subject: [PRR] Penn Station/NYC and mail handling Hi everyone, I'm interested in gathering some info w/ regard to mail handling in Penn Station/NYC. The station and main post office are right next to one another, and of course this was no coincidence. I seem to recall reading some mention somewhere that there were conveyor belts to move the mail sacks from the subteranean passenger platforms to/from the post office building. Since having dedicated conveyors implies having dedicated mail loading/unloading tracks for the RPO cars, does anyone know where these tracks were located? Were they within Penn Station proper, or were they on some subteranean sidings under the post office? Or yet somewhere else? Any info on this topic appreciated... - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 02:15:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Penn Station/NYC and mail handling In a message dated 8/14/01 11:46:32 PM Central Daylight Time, schlund@cwnet.com writes: << Since having dedicated conveyors implies having dedicated mail loading/unloading tracks for the RPO cars, does anyone know where these tracks were located? >> I'm interested in the answers to that as well. Quite a while ago I asked where some of these tracks were. They are listed in consist books for the mail drafts from Sunnyside Yard as "J" track, Track 14, Track 10, Track 9, Track 15, Track 3 for various drafts. I can't find "J" track on track diagrams of Penn Station. The draft including the mail cars for the Broadway, Jeffersonian, and Peach Queen (SR) and the draft for the Gotham Limited and the St. Louis Mail were spotted there. These drafts were placed on these tracks from 4 to 6 hours before their respective trains departed. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:18:07 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Penn Station/NYC and mail handling From: "Douglas Nelson" There are some tracks at the west end of the station where Amtrak mail cars are still handled today. They sit directly under the Post Office, as do the west end of all the station tracks. Wouldn't it be possible that all tracks could receive mail from the Post Office above? Doug Nelson ---------- > In a message dated 8/14/01 11:46:32 PM Central Daylight Time, > schlund@cwnet.com writes: > > << Since having dedicated conveyors implies having dedicated > mail loading/unloading tracks for the RPO cars, does anyone > know where these tracks were located? >> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 02:25:48 EDT Subject: [PRR] CUS mail handling To keep it straight, I have started a separate subject for the above. In addition to questions for NY, I have asked for confirmation that at Chicago, the mail cars stayed at the post office for loading until moved to the departure track for their train. However, I believe there was also a separate mail platform south of the station. In addition, the diagrams of the Polk Street freight station include tracks labelled "inbound mail" and "outbound mail". Can anyone add any information on the foregoing? What was the process at Chicago? For one of the few times in my life I am doubleposting, but the thread started on the PRR-Talk list about Penn Station NY and I wanted to also ask the PennsyWest list for thoughts on Chicago (my apologies to those who are on both lists and receive this message twice). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 22:48:54 -0800 From: Harry Webber Subject: Re: [PRR] Penn Station/NYC and mail handling Dear Claus, When I worked for the New York Region I would deadhead in from Sunnyside Yards to Pennsylvania Station and the Engine crews I rode with would on 29 and 49 would cut off at Track 15 or 16, run up to the layover tracks assigned for NYNH&H and wait for a signal to back onto one of the two tracks on the south side of the station to pick up either 3 head-end cars for 49 or one RPO for 29. They would then return to the tunnel approach tracks and await a brakeman's signal to back onto their respective trains. There was always a great deal of concern upon arrival at Penn Station that the head-end cars would in fact be ready. This was due to a standing order that forbid the trains to on load passengers until this move was completed. In later years the tracks used for head-end cars were also used to store a number of private cars owned by Mr. Pinn. I believe that these tracks were 8 and 9 but I can't be sure. This was in 1962-1965. There were mobile conveyor belts that were used to load the four mail trains that would run between Boston and Washington D.C. during those years and they connected with the permanent post office conveyor system that brought mail down from the central p.o. In 1970 there was a major robbery and the conveyor system was accused of being a breach of security by Postal Officials or so I was told. Harry Webber Claus Schlund wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I'm interested in gathering some info w/ regard > to mail handling in Penn Station/NYC. The station > and main post office are right next to > one another, and of course this was no coincidence. > I seem to recall reading some mention somewhere that > there were conveyor belts to move the mail sacks from > the subteranean passenger platforms to/from > the post office building. > > Since having dedicated conveyors implies having dedicated > mail loading/unloading tracks for the RPO cars, does anyone > know where these tracks were located? Were they within > Penn Station proper, or were they on some subteranean > sidings under the post office? Or yet somewhere else? > > Any info on this topic appreciated... > > - Claus > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:08:12 -0800 From: Harry Webber Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Helper Assignments in 1949-1950 Thanks Steve, If the Broadway did use K4 or T1 Helpers in 1949 where would they be cut off? At the east end of the Gallitzin tunnel or at the Cresson Wye. Harry Webber Steve Hoxie wrote: > Harry--For helpers on the Broadway in 1949 the most common assigned engines > would be K4, T1, and L1, probably in that order, but certainly the K4 was > most common. The three unit E7 set you mentioned might have been assigned > as road power, but not as helpers. No F3's--they were freight only. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 01:01:35 -0800 From: Harry Webber Subject: Re: [PRR] CUS mail handling During the Pennsy era the current concern from the US Postal Service regarding diesel exhaust emissions had its beginnings. There was a great deal of competition between the NYC and PRR for the NY-Chicago Mail Contract and key to that conflict was the trans shipping of mail cars from NYC trains to Polk Street ( a PRR Owned Freight Facility) where they would await spotting at the post office tracks south of Union Station. Rumor had it that the politically connected NYC instigated the Post Office concerns about the practice of hostlers and engine crews on Pennsy Power laying over on the Postal Lead tracks before their train departures thus shaving as much as an hour off the slightly longer running times due to the grades encountered on its rugged Pittsburgh and Middle Divisions. This, coupled with Pennsy's NY-Chi 54 mile route advantage and it's ability to slow NYC transfer moves at Polk street translated into a strong competitive advantage. Currently Amtrak removes mail cars in Chicago before the backing move into the station. the reverse was the general practice during the Pennsy years. Because of exhaust concerns, westbound PRR Trains were pulled out of the station after being uncoupled from their power and head end cars and taken to be serviced. Hostlers would then back the power and headend cars to the CB&Q wye, turn the cars and bring them back to the Postal tracks instead of spotting them at Polk Street. Another Pennsy practice was to cut off the Head end cars and power and run them under Union Station via the Milwaukee Road departure tracks and then back them onto the Post Office tracks, then leave the Power there for the Hostlers. This practice was short- lived when a set of E8's were left idling under what is now the Mechantile Exchange and Gateway Center instead of being spotted under the vented train shed north of the post office. The resulting fumes shut down the offices above the tracks for 3 hours. Another use of the Post Office tracks at Polk street was for the layover of trans-continental mail that would come in on train 49 and go out on the Super Chief and California Zephyr. Servicing the US Post Office at Union Station has resulted in some of the most unique passenger terminal movements in modern railroading. Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > To keep it straight, I have started a separate subject for the above. In > addition to questions for NY, I have asked for confirmation that at Chicago, > the mail cars stayed at the post office for loading until moved to the > departure track for their train. However, I believe there was also a > separate mail platform south of the station. In addition, the diagrams of > the Polk Street freight station include tracks labelled "inbound mail" and > "outbound mail". Can anyone add any information on the foregoing? What was > the process at Chicago? > > For one of the few times in my life I am doubleposting, but the thread > started on the PRR-Talk list about Penn Station NY and I wanted to also ask > the PennsyWest list for thoughts on Chicago (my apologies to those who are on > both lists and receive this message twice). > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 01:06:11 -0800 From: Harry Webber Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Helper Assignments in 1949-1950 Thanks Steve, If the Broadway did use K4 or T1 Helpers in 1949 where would they be cut off? At the east end of the Gallitzin tunnel or at the Cresson Wye. Harry Webber Steve Hoxie wrote: > Harry--For helpers on the Broadway in 1949 the most common assigned engines > would be K4, T1, and L1, probably in that order, but certainly the K4 was > most common. The three unit E7 set you mentioned might have been assigned > as road power, but not as helpers. No F3's--they were freight only. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 06:26:11 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Altoona Helper Assignments in 1949-1950 From: Jerry Britton On 8/14/01 10:38 PM, Harry Webber at (smartcommco@earthlink.net) wrote: > Gregg Martin told me about the helper stripe on the F3's. I don't have access > to > the book you mentioned > but would that extra door stripe be above the kick plate, at the door handle > (?) I'll have to pull a few books out later and look. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Bennett - Do you want to go to Mexico? Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 07:07:45 -0400 Bennett, Those cars for sale in Mexico would sure look great behind your E-8s. You will have them repainted and restored before I click send on this email. No one else in the world plays Pennsy like you do. At least we all get to watch. I now have to figure out get my girlfriend to go to Railfest 2 years in a row. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR #6200 S2 Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 07:51:12 -0400 Group, Thanks for the info Sam Vastano >From: NDBPRR@aol.com >To: svastano@hotmail.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR #6200 S2 >Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 12:23:25 EDT > >I believe there were four nozzles in the stack. As I recall one of the >pictures in Pennsy Power or Pennsy power 2 show four clear streams merging >into one stack plume but I will defer to others. I believe the box on the >front is the train control box. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR #6200 S2 Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 09:49:59 -0400 Bill Thanks for the info. Do you know id there was actually a connecting rod from somewhere to the first driver like the old Lionel engines had? I can't see anything on any of the pictures that I have. But I do see it on a Gem Model??? >From: >To: "Sam Vastano" >Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR #6200 S2 >Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 06:13:55 -0700 > >I don't know about the S-2 stack arrangement, however the >box on the pilot was an intercooler for the air system. > >Bill Daniels >Tucson, AZ > >On Wed, 15 Aug 2001 07:51:12 -0400 > "Sam Vastano" wrote: > > Group, > > > > Thanks for the info > > > > Sam Vastano > > > > > > >From: NDBPRR@aol.com > > >To: svastano@hotmail.com > > >Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR #6200 S2 > > >Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 12:23:25 EDT > > > > > >I believe there were four nozzles in the stack. As I > > recall one of the > > >pictures in Pennsy Power or Pennsy power 2 show four > > clear streams merging > > >into one stack plume but I will defer to others. I > > believe the box on the > > >front is the train control box. > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message > > "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Helper Assignments in 1949-1950 Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 10:07:21 -0500 Harry--Don't forget the L1. A significant number of these were used for passenger power during WWII and were still available in 1949. Some were even fitted with passenger pilots. > > If the Broadway did use K4 or T1 Helpers in 1949 where would they be cut off? > At the east end of the Gallitzin tunnel or at the Cresson Wye. > Not at the east end--the top of the grade was/is in the tunnels. Turning and servicing facilities were on the west side at Gallitizin. Steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 11:45:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Altoona Helper Assignments in 1949-1950 From: Jerry Britton On 8/15/01 11:07 AM, Steve Hoxie (steveh@dotstar.net) wrote: >> If the Broadway did use K4 or T1 Helpers in 1949 where would they be cut > off? >> At the east end of the Gallitzin tunnel or at the Cresson Wye. >> > Not at the east end--the top of the grade was/is in the tunnels. Turning > and servicing facilities were on the west side at Gallitizin. > Requires further clarification, regarding 1949: Diesel helper service facilities were on the loop track in Gallitzin. Steam helper service was on the wye at Cresson. Diesel helpers cut off at UN, just prior to the entrance of the loop track. Steam helpers could have cut off at UN as well, using the loop to return back downhill, but probably waited and cut off at Cresson so as to refill with coal and water. Thanks to Pat McKinney, I have a valuation map of the Cresson steam facility with track lines drawn in for the "proposed" diesel facility. This map is dated "revised 1954"... so the steam facility was still in place as of that date. However, it appears that by 1954 the roundhouse may have already been razed. Some of the outbuildings and a few tracks were definitely removed by then. I am still researching this for my modeling efforts. Sometime circa 1955 or later the diesel facilities were built and the servicing moved to Cresson from the Gallitzin loop track. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 12:26:46 -0400 From: Dave Pfeiffer Subject: [PRR] Railfest (was Suggestions for Altoona Visit) question for Bennett: Do you know if your E's will be running unassisted during Railfest, or will NS be adding "protection"? I assume the cars will be mostly Amtrak for which you have HEP in one of your units. Correct? Thanks. Dave Pfeiffer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 12:28:35 -0400 From: Dave Pfeiffer Subject: [PRR] Railfest (was Suggestions for Altoona Visit) Sorry for the duplicate post! Dave Pfeiffer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Pennsy S Models Website updated Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 18:12:34 -0400 Hi All, The X-29 pilot model photos have been added to the Pennsy S Models website. www.pennsysmodels.com Please give it a look. We should have an Adobe Acrobat download of the order form on the Website soon. We also have announced our next car project. There was substantial interest shown for both cars at the NASG convention. Our builder has promised us a near production sample of the Railway Express version by our show in South Amboy NJ on Sept. 22. I hope to see you there. Thank You Bill Lane Pennsy S Models ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Caliciotti Jr." Subject: [PRR] wilkes-barre branch/sunbury Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 04:48:38 +0000 Hello all, I am going to check out the Wilkes-Barre Branch from the east end of the line to Sunbury. I have a few questions about the branch. When did the D&H gain control of the line? Are any parts of it still in use today? Are there any structures (towers, stations, yard facilities) still standing? Thanks, Sam _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 08:45:37 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Power II Observations From: Jerry Britton Believe it or not, I just now acquired a copy of Staufer's "Pennsy Power II". A while back, when "Pennsy Power I" was being reprinted, I asked Al about the possibility of a reprint of PP2. He indicated that "basically everything in PP2 was rolled into the later and larger PP3. Therefore, PP2 would not be reprinted." I beg to differ! While the text may be largely the same, the photos are substantially different...at least the ones that caught my eye! A few observations: 1) Finally, a photo showing X-29's at the Harrisburg station in "REA" livery...dated 1946...before my modeling era of 1954. 2) A photo of Erie-builts in passenger service. These can be seen elsewhere, but not often. 3) Broad-stripe E-8's pulling a TrucTrain train! Were these run as passenger consists? Most photos show freight locomotives. Undated, but at least 1954 due to the broad stripe. However, most of the trailers are of the short variety. None bear the round PRR logo. I'd guess it's still in the 1950's. 4) A closeup of the detail of the Enola tracks flyover at the west end of the Rockville Bridge in December 1954. Shows all the trackside accessories and signals like never before... including the large puddle I must now model!!! Substantiates that in 1954, track 3 still split and decended on both sides of the Enola tracks. My research had indicated the one that paralleled the two passenger tracks was removed circa 1955-56. 5) An interesting shot of three trains progressing the same direction in a sort of yard. I am guessing it was really at Denholm, perhaps taken from the coal wharf, though you can't see any of the coal trestle. One train is solid gons of the same class; one is solid hoppers of the same class; and the third is solid boxcars (X-29's?) of the same class and paint scheme. So, you really can model accurately by opening a twelve pack of Red Caboose X-29's and hooking them up end-to-end without mixing in other cars!!! 6) "Merchandise Service" cars running in a passenger train. Penn Valley Pictures' "Under the Catenary" also shows an example of this. I have yet to find any "Makeup of Trains" books that specify such a car. I had always assumed that when an "X-29" was specified, it would be an "REA" X-29. Now I may need to think otherwise! Those are just a few standouts from an old book. There were many more. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 09:01:29 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Power II Observations Jerry sez: >5) An interesting shot of three trains progressing the same direction in a >sort of yard. I am guessing it was really at Denholm, perhaps taken from the >coal wharf, though you can't see any of the coal trestle. One train is solid >gons of the same class; one is solid hoppers of the same class; and the >third is solid boxcars (X-29's?) of the same class and paint scheme. So, you >really can model accurately by opening a twelve pack of Red Caboose X-29's >and hooking them up end-to-end without mixing in other cars!!! Sure, but be sure to: 1) shut down the RR to all other traffic 2) model the photographer, photographer's assistant, and a whole heap of RR brass (not top brass, but mid level) making sure the picture is everything they wanted. 3) cars, busses or a special train for these folks to get around on. Obviously, the shot is a PR photo, and does not represent real trains on the PRR. Of course, many a "passenger train" such as the Dusquene (spelling?) can be modeled by tossing a 12 pack of express X-29s on the track, mixing in a B-60b or two and adding a couple of P-70s to the tail end Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 10:11:18 -0400 Subject: [PRR] HO Scale N-8 From Bowser -- Who Wants It??? From: Jerry Britton Lee English, Bowser, has asked me to float a proposal by the group. We have long asked for an HO scale N-8. Lee is finally considering it SERIOUSLY. To the point that they've already estimated the cost of the molds. Problem is, you'll likely be looking at a suggested retail price of $24.95. (That's what N scaler's faced on the N-5!) So, please respond back to me (off-list) with 1) Would you purchase based on an SRP of $24.95? * 2) How many are you likely to purchase? ** * You may presume that your dealer may discount. ** This does not constitute an order or other firm commitment. UPDATES: The HO scale GLa bodies are done and going to the paint shop. Parts sprues go into production this coming Monday. Artwork is out for accuracy verification. All is on schedule for October shipment. The N scale H-21a project is proceeding well. No additional information at this time, other than these will be released early in 2002. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale N-8 From Bowser -- Who Wants It??? Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 10:27:41 -0400 Jerry: How about an N SCALE N-8 while Lee is at it???? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 10:11 AM Subject: [PRR] HO Scale N-8 From Bowser -- Who Wants It??? > Lee English, Bowser, has asked me to float a proposal by the group. > > We have long asked for an HO scale N-8. Lee is finally considering it > SERIOUSLY. To the point that they've already estimated the cost of the > molds. > > Problem is, you'll likely be looking at a suggested retail price of $24.95. > (That's what N scaler's faced on the N-5!) > > So, please respond back to me (off-list) with > > 1) Would you purchase based on an SRP of $24.95? * > > 2) How many are you likely to purchase? ** > > * You may presume that your dealer may discount. > > ** This does not constitute an order or other firm commitment. > > UPDATES: > > The HO scale GLa bodies are done and going to the paint shop. Parts sprues > go into production this coming Monday. Artwork is out for accuracy > verification. All is on schedule for October shipment. > > The N scale H-21a project is proceeding well. No additional information at > this time, other than these will be released early in 2002. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 16 Aug 2001 10:32:27 -0400 From: Doug Drew Subject: [PRR] Steam helper facilities at Gallitzin Reply to: Steam helper facilities at Gallitzin I'd like to beg to differ with a couple of responses to Harry Webber's questions on Gallitzin: I believe the summit of the grade was to the WEST side of all three tunnels, not WITHIN any of the tunnels as someone posted. The vertical curve of the summit of the grade near the west portal of the New Portage tunnel on the eastbound main is pretty pronounced, as I remember. The normally WB Gallitzin and Allegheny tunnels had blower fans/plenums installed on their east portals, to blow smoke of locomotives still under power, out the west end of the bore. Steam trains at Gallitzin would be 'announced' by a large cloud of smoke emerging from the west portal of a tunnel, before they appeared. Great help to have cab signals in those days -- must have been a real joy for an upgrade train's engineer to try and sight a lineside signal through that pall, before cab signals were installed. I also believe that the Altoona/Conemaugh loops at Gallitzin also DID have steam service facilities, at one time -- water tanks, a wooden coaling tower, and undoubtedly, sand. I'm here at work, and racking my brain as to where I saw an old shot of Gallitzin that showed the above -- maybe in Westing's "Pennsy Steam and Semaphores"? As I remember, the shot also showed the "old" AR tower with a peaked roof, predating the "modern" one. However, I have no idea when these came down in favor of the diesel facility -- probably in the late 40's when PRR decided to go whole hog and bought diesel locomotives from anyone who made them. I think Cresson engine house in steam days was busy enough handling the power serving the branches than eminated from that terminal, and mainline trains that originated/terminated there. I think steam helpers on westbound power, passenger or freight, would have been turned at the Altoona/Conemaugh loops in most cases. Adding light helper traffic to/from the engine terminal at Cresson would have just compounded the congestion at a key spot in an already congested railroad. One exception might have been if a WB passenger train had a scheduled stop at Cresson -- the helper could have been cut off while the station stop was being made -- but I imagine these types of trains were rather few, in the scheme of things. Often wrong but never in doubt, Doug Drew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 10:48:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam helper facilities at Gallitzin From: Jerry Britton On 8/16/01 10:32 AM, Doug Drew (ddrew@channing-bete.com) wrote: > Reply to: Steam helper facilities at Gallitzin > I'd like to beg to differ with a couple of responses to Harry Webber's > questions on Gallitzin: Everyone's entitled to an opinion! > > I believe the summit of the grade was to the WEST side of all three tunnels, > not WITHIN any of the tunnels as someone posted. Definitely not so. The summit of the westbound tracks -- Gallitzin and Allegheny tunnels -- was definitely within the tunnels. I know there is an elevation cross reference in "Triumph I". Not sure off the top of my head about the eastbound grade through Portage tunnel. It may be just west of the portal. Don't have the book with me. > > The normally WB Gallitzin and Allegheny tunnels had blower fans/plenums > installed on their east portals, to blow smoke of locomotives still under > power, out the west end of the bore. Steam trains at Gallitzin would be > 'announced' by a large cloud of smoke emerging from the west portal of a > tunnel, before they appeared. Great help to have cab signals in those days -- > must have been a real joy for an upgrade train's engineer to try and sight a > lineside signal through that pall, before cab signals were installed. Anyone know when these blowers were removed? More importantly -- to me -- were they still present in 1954? > > I also believe that the Altoona/Conemaugh loops at Gallitzin also DID have > steam service facilities, at one time -- water tanks, a wooden coaling tower, > and undoubtedly, sand. Water and sand were present. > I'm here at work, and racking my brain as to where I > saw an old shot of Gallitzin that showed the above -- maybe in Westing's > "Pennsy Steam and Semaphores"? One book I do not have. > As I remember, the shot also showed the "old" > AR tower with a peaked roof, predating the "modern" one. However, I have no > idea when these came down in favor of the diesel facility -- probably in the > late 40's when PRR decided to go whole hog and bought diesel locomotives from > anyone who made them. I think Cresson engine house in steam days was busy > enough handling the power serving the branches than eminated from that > terminal, and mainline trains that originated/terminated there. > > I think steam helpers on westbound power, passenger or freight, would have > been turned at the Altoona/Conemaugh loops in most cases. Adding light helper > traffic to/from the engine terminal at Cresson would have just compounded the > congestion at a key spot in an already congested railroad. One exception might > have been if a WB passenger train had a scheduled stop at Cresson -- the > helper could have been cut off while the station stop was being made -- but I > imagine these types of trains were rather few, in the scheme of things. > As of 1954, I'm fairly certain the passenger station at Cresson was already out of service. But don't quote me!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 12:41:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Power II Observations In a message dated 8/16/01 7:53:04 AM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << 3) Broad-stripe E-8's pulling a TrucTrain train! Were these run as passenger consists?>> Dunno about the date, but referring to it as a TrucTrain implies freight, not passenger. << 6) "Merchandise Service" cars running in a passenger train. Penn Valley Pictures' "Under the Catenary" also shows an example of this. I have yet to find any "Makeup of Trains" books that specify such a car. I had always assumed that when an "X-29" was specified, it would be an "REA" X-29. Now I may need to think otherwise! >> I had previously questioned the caption on this photo, assuming you are referring to the "Train No. 14" behind the Erie-built. I suppose you can vaguely make out some cars which might be B60's far back in the consist, but the container cars plus Merchandise cars point to LCL. Someone on the list said this train (14) ran over part of its route without any passenger carrying cars so the absence of steam lines on the Merchandise cars and container cars would't have been a problem in that stretch. Erie-built 9467 didn't have a steam generator anyway, based on all the evidence I have. One of the Herron videos shows a B1 switching at Harrisburg and some merchandise cars are mixed in with the express cars, so you are right, Jerry. It sure needs further research. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 12:57:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Power II Observations From: Jerry Britton On 8/16/01 12:41 PM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: > In a message dated 8/16/01 7:53:04 AM Central Daylight Time, > jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > > << 3) Broad-stripe E-8's pulling a TrucTrain train! Were these run as > passenger > consists?>> > > Dunno about the date, but referring to it as a TrucTrain implies freight, > not passenger. That's why I pointed it out!!! > > << 6) "Merchandise Service" cars running in a passenger train. Penn Valley > Pictures' "Under the Catenary" also shows an example of this. I have yet to > find any "Makeup of Trains" books that specify such a car. I had always > assumed that when an "X-29" was specified, it would be an "REA" X-29. Now I > may need to think otherwise! >>> > > I had previously questioned the caption on this photo, assuming you are > referring to the "Train No. 14" behind the Erie-built. I suppose you can > vaguely make out some cars which might be B60's far back in the consist, but > the container cars plus Merchandise cars point to LCL. Someone on the list > said this train (14) ran over part of its route without any passenger > carrying cars so the absence of steam lines on the Merchandise cars and > container cars would't have been a problem in that stretch. Erie-built 9467 > didn't have a steam generator anyway, based on all the evidence I have. You've got the right photo... a container car, a few "Merchandise Service" cars, then B-60's. In 1954, there was BF-14 from Buffalo to New York and 14 "Pittsburgh-New York Express" from Pittsburgh to New York. > > One of the Herron videos shows a B1 switching at Harrisburg and some > merchandise cars are mixed in with the express cars, so you are right, Jerry. > It sure needs further research. > I would be very grateful if you could nail down which video it is. Sounds like a "must have" for me. Through videos I can often get views of structures and other tidbits that the average viewer doesn't take note of. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 12:59:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam helper facilities at Gallitzin From: Jerry Britton On 8/16/01 12:55 PM, Doug Drew (ddrew@channing-bete.com) wrote: > Reply to: Re: [PRR] Steam helper facilities at Gallitzin > Jerry Britton wrote: > -Definitely not so. The summit of the westbound tracks -- Gallitzin and > -Allegheny tunnels -- was definitely within the tunnels. I know there is an > -elevation cross reference in "Triumph I". Not sure off the top of my head > -about the eastbound grade through Portage tunnel. It may be just west of the > -portal. Don't have the book with me. > > Jerry, I don't have Triumph I. What is the source of their reference for this > data? My understanding is that this book is very "factually challenged". While the book is "factually challenged", that is only in regards to their text. The elevation map I referred to was included as a "photo" of an existing document, presumably PRR. > I have a copy of an 1950 PRR Engineering Dept. track diagram of the Pittsburgh > division, and it sure looks like the apex of the grade is either AT the > western portals of the Allegheny and Gallitzin tunnels, or just west of them, > at MP 248. The apex is definitely west of the New Portage tunnel. > > -Anyone know when these blowers were removed? More importantly -- to me -- > -were they still present in 1954? > > The blower fans were there through the advent of Conrail. > The plenums surrounding the east portals of the two WB tunnels were there into > the 60's, at least, and definitely in 1954, as J1s were still being used on > the Pittsburgh division, off and on. > I believe there is a shot of the plenums still there, in Pennsy Power II. It > was taken in the 60's, showing a WB train coming off the New Portage branch > about to enter the tunnels. > Great info. Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 13:02:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale N-8 From Bowser -- Who Wants It??? From: aurora7@juno.com Tell Lee that Bowser should reinstate the G5 ten-wheeler before he starts anything new. I am a devout LIRR/PRR man. Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "Coquet hated reality, but realized it was the only place to get a good steak dinner" - Woody Allen ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 13:16:41 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam helper facilities at Gallitzin Does anyone know what the small RED keystone was just to the east of the blowers? It was mounted on a pipe like a whistle post but appeared slightly bigger. Jerry Britton wrote: > > On 8/16/01 12:55 PM, Doug Drew (ddrew@channing-bete.com) wrote: > > > Reply to: Re: [PRR] Steam helper facilities at Gallitzin > > Jerry Britton wrote: > > -Definitely not so. The summit of the westbound tracks -- Gallitzin and > > -Allegheny tunnels -- was definitely within the tunnels. I know there is an > > -elevation cross reference in "Triumph I". Not sure off the top of my head > > -about the eastbound grade through Portage tunnel. It may be just west of the > > -portal. Don't have the book with me. > > > > Jerry, I don't have Triumph I. What is the source of their reference for this > > data? My understanding is that this book is very "factually challenged". > > While the book is "factually challenged", that is only in regards to their > text. The elevation map I referred to was included as a "photo" of an > existing document, presumably PRR. > > > I have a copy of an 1950 PRR Engineering Dept. track diagram of the Pittsburgh > > division, and it sure looks like the apex of the grade is either AT the > > western portals of the Allegheny and Gallitzin tunnels, or just west of them, > > at MP 248. The apex is definitely west of the New Portage tunnel. > > > > -Anyone know when these blowers were removed? More importantly -- to me -- > > -were they still present in 1954? > > > > The blower fans were there through the advent of Conrail. > > The plenums surrounding the east portals of the two WB tunnels were there into > > the 60's, at least, and definitely in 1954, as J1s were still being used on > > the Pittsburgh division, off and on. > > I believe there is a shot of the plenums still there, in Pennsy Power II. It > > was taken in the 60's, showing a WB train coming off the New Portage branch > > about to enter the tunnels. > > > Great info. Thanks! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 13:17:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Power II Observations In a message dated 8/16/01 11:57:51 AM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << > One of the Herron videos shows a B1 switching at Harrisburg and some > merchandise cars are mixed in with the express cars, so you are right, Jerry. > It sure needs further research. > I would be very grateful if you could nail down which video it is. Sounds like a "must have" for me. Through videos I can often get views of structures and other tidbits that the average viewer doesn't take note of. >> Pennsylvania Glory Vol. 1. Actually, though there was a B1 there, the string with the merchandise car and the B60s was being pulled by an SW-1. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 13:25:37 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam helper facilities at Gallitzin Doug Drew wrote: > Reply to: Steam helper facilities at Gallitzin > I'd like to beg to differ with a couple of responses to Harry Webber's questions on Gallitzin: > I also believe that the Altoona/Conemaugh loops at Gallitzin also DID have steam service facilities, at one time -- water tanks, a wooden coaling tower, and undoubtedly, sand. I'm here at work, and racking my brain as to where I saw an old shot of Gallitzin that showed the above -- maybe in Westing's "Pennsy Steam and Semaphores"? As I remember, the shot also showed the "old" AR tower with a peaked roof, predating the "modern" one. However, I have no idea when these came down in favor of the diesel facility -- probably in the late 40's when PRR decided to go whole hog and bought diesel locomotives from anyone who made them. I think Cresson engine house in steam days was busy enough handling the power serving the branches than eminated from that terminal, and mainline trains that originated/terminated there. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Doug & List: Westing's "Pennsy Steam and Semaphores", P. 145 shows east end of tunnel only. No other facilities are shown. regards, Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 13:58:26 -0400 From: Stephen S Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR #6200 S2 There was a small connecting lever on one side (or both?) that actuated a mechanical lubricator, similar to many modern piston type steam locos. This was modeled on a Sunset S2 I once owned. Steve Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR #6200 S2 From: "Sam Vastano" Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 09:49:59 -0400 Bill Thanks for the info. Do you know if there was actually a connecting rod from somewhere to the first driver like the old Lionel engines had? I can't see anything on any of the pictures that I have. But I do see it on a Gem Model??? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 14:03:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Steam helper facilities at Gallitzin From: Jerry Britton On 8/16/01 1:16 PM, Bennett Levin (v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net) wrote: > Does anyone know what the small RED keystone was just to the east of the > blowers? It was mounted on a pipe like a whistle post but appeared > slightly bigger. > On 8/16/01 1:28 PM, Doug Drew (ddrew@channing-bete.com) wrote: > Don't know, but if it was meaningful, wouldn't this sign/symbol have been > mentioned in a Pittsburgh division employee's timetable special instructions > or something? I assume this was a non-standard type of sign. I have a couple > at home, I'll see what I can dig up, if I can find them. > Was this keystone there through the diesel age? Good idea! I just checked the 4/55 Pittsburgh Division ETT. I did not read the full text; just looked in the obvious sections and also looked for a diagram of the signal. I found nothing. Was this pipe-mounted keystone between the #3 and #4 track, or was it on the north side of #4 track? I ask this as through the mid-1950's there was still a reverse-facing turnout to an interchange siding for a mine at this location. See the interlocking diagram on Mark Bej's site: http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/ar.gif I don't think it's related, however. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 14:20:03 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Helper Cutoff At Gallitzin From: Jerry Britton Here's an answer to one of our current discussions: >From the Pittsburgh Division ETT dated 5/55... p.73 Rule 1154-A4: Passenger trains from Altoona with helpers ordered to assist to Gallitzin will stop and cut off helper at home signal at UN, except when a passenger train with a helper to cur off stops at Gallitzin Station to receive or discharge passengers, the helper engine will cut off at that point and the train will follow but must run expecting to find the helping engine in the block. Westward passenger trains with 14 or more cars using No. 4 track with helper to cut off from head end at UN will pull down to home signal on middle siding located 600 feet east of UN or to home signal on No. 4 track opposite UN where helper will cut off. p.78 Rule 1155-A7: Westward freight trains having pusher engine to cut off at allitzin will not exceed 15 miles per hour at Gallitzin until entire train has passed interlocking at UN. p.81 Westward Trains Destined Beyond Gallitzin: East Slope helpers on rear will cut off promptly after passing Gallitzin station. East Slope helpers pulling ahead will remain coupled to MO. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 14:28:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Signal, East End of Gallitzin Blowers From: Jerry Britton On 8/16/01 2:03 PM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > On 8/16/01 1:16 PM, Bennett Levin (v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net) wrote: > >> Does anyone know what the small RED keystone was just to the east of the >> blowers? It was mounted on a pipe like a whistle post but appeared >> slightly bigger. >> > On 8/16/01 1:28 PM, Doug Drew (ddrew@channing-bete.com) wrote: > >> Don't know, but if it was meaningful, wouldn't this sign/symbol have been >> mentioned in a Pittsburgh division employee's timetable special instructions >> or something? I assume this was a non-standard type of sign. I have a couple >> at home, I'll see what I can dig up, if I can find them. >> Was this keystone there through the diesel age? > May have found the answer...doesn't mention a Keystone symbol, but if that symbol is actually a light the following will make sense... Pittsburgh Division ETT, 5/55, page 78: 1155-A10: Engine crews on westward freight trains passing through No. 3 and No. 4 track tunnels at Gallitzin will be governed as follows: Signs bearing the letter "F" are located on top of fan house between No. 3 track and No. 4 track, east end of Gallitzin tunnes. When illuminated, sign on south corner of fan house indicates fans are operating for No. 3 track tunnel and sign on north corner of fan house indicates fans are operating for No. 4 track tunnel. Engine crews on westward freight trains having steam hauler, steam helper, or both, must stop and report to operator at AR for instructions when sign indicates fans are not operating for tunnel through which movement is to be made. On trains having one or more steam engines ahead, on entering the tunnel the throttle valve will be closed on all engines except the lead engine, the blower applied lightly, and, will not use steam again until after passing the west portal of tunnel unless signalled by two sounds of the whistle on the leading engine to prevent stalling. When smoke appears in the cabl of the leading engine the engineman will signal the enginemen of the other engine or engines by four sounds of the whistle to close throttle valve. The train must be operated in such a manner that the leading engine will keep behind the smoke which is driven westward by the fans. The pushing engine will assist in the usual manner. When there is one or move pushing engines, the enginemen of all engines, except the one next to the train, will apply the blower lightly and use only sufficient steam to keep against the engine ahead. WOW!!! A whole lot of new things to think about for modeling!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 14:59:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Signal, East End of Gallitzin Blowers From: Jerry Britton On 8/16/01 3:03 PM, Steven Hanlon (steveh@mth-railking.com) wrote: > wow. that is really interesting. it really shows that railroading in the > steam era was a challenge that today's diesel operators do not have. i > couldn't imagine being an engineer in the late 30's and early 40's when > traffic levels were booming on the PRR. i wonder what other little gems > like this exist along the PRR right of way that would make great > conversation pieces on a layout. > I know the wheels are turning in my mind...a smoke generator inside my Tunnel Hill, activated by DCC, blowing out the west portal until the loco clears. Wow!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 15:03:53 -0400 From: Steven Hanlon Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Signal, East End of Gallitzin Blowers > >May have found the answer...doesn't mention a Keystone symbol, but if that >symbol is actually a light the following will make sense... wow. that is really interesting. it really shows that railroading in the steam era was a challenge that today's diesel operators do not have. i couldn't imagine being an engineer in the late 30's and early 40's when traffic levels were booming on the PRR. i wonder what other little gems like this exist along the PRR right of way that would make great conversation pieces on a layout. "why does the train stop before the tunnel when the light on the build is off?" -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 15:32:48 -0400 From: Steven Hanlon Subject: Re: [PRR] Keystone Signal, East End of Gallitzin Blowers At 02:59 PM 8/16/01 -0400, Jerry Britton wrote: >I know the wheels are turning in my mind...a smoke generator inside my >Tunnel Hill, activated by DCC, blowing out the west portal until the loco >clears. Wow!!! my thoughts exactly. how you going to put smoke units in the N scale engines? :) i am looking at triumph I on page 133 and don't see any such signal. was it added when the fan power was converted to diesel? where is a decent picture of this signal? -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 15:46:57 -0400 Subject: FW: [PRR] Keystone Signal, East End of Gallitzin Blowers From: Jerry Britton The following is forwarded from Dave Seidel, a user caught in AOL's MIME Hell and cannot post directly!!! ------------------------ On 8/16/01 2:03 PM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > On 8/16/01 1:16 PM, Bennett Levin (v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net) wrote: > >> Does anyone know what the small RED keystone was just to the east of the >> blowers? It was mounted on a pipe like a whistle post but appeared >> slightly bigger. >> > On 8/16/01 1:28 PM, Doug Drew (ddrew@channing-bete.com) wrote: > >> Don't know, but if it was meaningful, wouldn't this sign/symbol have been >> mentioned in a Pittsburgh division employee's timetable special instructions >> or something? I assume this was a non-standard type of sign. I have a couple >> at home, I'll see what I can dig up, if I can find them. >> Was this keystone there through the diesel age? Since I am an AOL user, I cannot respond to list. There was a red keystone east of the tunnels with the designation "SF". This was directly opposite the Jct of the New Portage branch approach to the mainline and thence, into the Allegheny or Gallitzin Tunnel. I have photo somewhere in the archives on a color transparency. ------------------------ My comments: This is very plausible. The SF tower had been on the hillside just east of where the New Portage Branch ducked under tracks 1 & 2 to meet tracks 3 & 4. When the tower was removed, it makes sense that some sort of marker be placed there to designate the SF interlocking (remoted from AR). Bennett: You started this thread. Was your "Keystone" sign on the pole out by the interlocking, or much closer to the blowers as your originally implied? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (David Hopson) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 19:03:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Kestone Signal, East End of Gallitzin Tunnels Hello List, The Red Keystone on the east end of the Tunnels is the "SF" interlocking marker. It was there right up to the merger. The Blower on track 3 was still there in 1975-76. The Blower House and the Blower on track 4 were torn down by Penn Central around 1969-70. My friend Ken Rideout has a HUGE collection of 8x10 photos of this area. He and I are building an HO layout from Altoona to Cresson. We are working on the east side of the Tunnels as we speak. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty \(The Cos\)" Subject: RE: [PRR] HO Scale N-8 From Bowser -- Who Wants It??? Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 19:27:57 -0400 Lets see - about $150.00 for a brass Alpha N8 or $25.00 for a quality plastic one. I had resigned myself to purchase two or three more. So if the N8 is like the N5, tell Lee I'll take 6 to 8 in various road numbers for Eastern Region. Be more than happy to send my check now too - if it helps him make up his mind! Cos Cos Communications, Inc. Home Page Rail Road Pages -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 10:11 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] HO Scale N-8 From Bowser -- Who Wants It??? Lee English, Bowser, has asked me to float a proposal by the group. We have long asked for an HO scale N-8. Lee is finally considering it SERIOUSLY. To the point that they've already estimated the cost of the molds. Problem is, you'll likely be looking at a suggested retail price of $24.95. (That's what N scaler's faced on the N-5!) So, please respond back to me (off-list) with 1) Would you purchase based on an SRP of $24.95? * 2) How many are you likely to purchase? ** * You may presume that your dealer may discount. ** This does not constitute an order or other firm commitment. UPDATES: The HO scale GLa bodies are done and going to the paint shop. Parts sprues go into production this coming Monday. Artwork is out for accuracy verification. All is on schedule for October shipment. The N scale H-21a project is proceeding well. No additional information at this time, other than these will be released early in 2002. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy Power II Observations Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 19:35:21 -0500 Hi Jerry-- > > Believe it or not, I just now acquired a copy of Staufer's "Pennsy Power > II". > Wow. PPII has been one of the mainstays for a long time. > > 3) Broad-stripe E-8's pulling a TrucTrain train! Were these run as passenger > consists? Most photos show freight locomotives. Undated, but at least 1954 > due to the broad stripe. However, most of the trailers are of the short > variety. None bear the round PRR logo. I'd guess it's still in the 1950's. > Not so fast! The E8's have had their skirts removed from over the fuel tanks, the front of the lead unit is festooned with all that MU stuff, and the trailing units are MU'd nose to tail. That dates the photo to 1960 or later more or less. Passenger traffic was very much reduced and they had to do something with the E's. And the idea of the broad stripe indicating at least 1954--are you sure about the year? My searching the books on this leads me to think 1957 before engines were seen with broad stripe. > > 5) An interesting shot of three trains progressing the same direction in a > sort of yard. I am guessing it was really at Denholm, perhaps taken from the > coal wharf, though you can't see any of the coal trestle. One train is solid > gons of the same class; one is solid hoppers of the same class; and the > third is solid boxcars (X-29's?) of the same class and paint scheme. So, you > really can model accurately by opening a twelve pack of Red Caboose X-29's > and hooking them up end-to-end without mixing in other cars!!! > The boxcars are not X-29's--you can tell by the tabs along the side sills. Probably they are new (1950) X-43a. The "a" because the wrinkles in the sides suggest welded construction. The 1950 date is about right because the F3 is still without grabrails above the windshields and the grabs ahead of the windshields which supported ladders for servicing. If you really want to run a train of freshly painted X-29's, there is a sequence in Penn Valley's Susquehanna Division with a whole string of pretty cars behind a Dec departing Nory. > > 6) "Merchandise Service" cars running in a passenger train. Penn Valley > Pictures' "Under the Catenary" also shows an example of this. I have yet >to find any "Makeup of Trains" books that specify such a car. I had >always assumed that when an "X-29" was specified, it would be an "REA" >X-29. Now I may need to think otherwise! > Again, not so fast! That does not seem like a passenger train behind those Erie-builts. That might be a B-60 behind the X-29's (or clones) back in the curve, but it might also be a X-31/32/33. Even if it is a B-60, it wouldn't be the first time one showed up in a freight. More than likely Mr. Staufer's famous captionitis has struck again. Back when PPI and PPII were all we had, we learned to really study those black and whites! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark T. Evans" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale N-8 From Bowser -- Who Wants It??? Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 19:01:36 -0700 > Problem is, you'll likely be looking at a suggested retail price of $24.95. I would expect a $25.00 N-8 kit to have the following features: Finely detailed end cage/ladders Separate side grabirons Underbody brake detail including levers and rods Flush-fitting "glass" Since I model the late 1960's, I would also like (as an optional part) flush-mounted windows in the aluminum window panels for the cupola. I'd pay up to $30.00 to $35.00 if I could get an N-8 with the aforementioned features. The level of detail of Bowser's previous cabins is a little too crude for my taste. Yours truly, Mark T. Evans Anaheim, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 02:11:03 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale N-8 From Bowser -- Who Wants It??? --On Thu, Aug 16, 2001 19:01 -0700 "Mark T. Evans" wrote: > I would expect a $25.00 N-8 kit to have the following features: > > Finely detailed end cage/ladders > Separate side grabirons > Underbody brake detail including levers and rods > Flush-fitting "glass" 1) Jerry asked for off-list responses. 2) Get real! Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 07:52:50 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Coal Service at Gallitzin From: Jerry Britton Following up on yesterday's discussion... Page 60 of "Pennsy Power" has a shot of AR and the loop track. A steam locomotive is on the loop track, next to what appears to be a wood coal wharf. The date is 1922. At some point the steam service was removed as it WAS NOT present when the diesels were serviced there in the late 1940's, early 1950's. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 10:58:34 EDT From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Lost locomotive will it be found? While a little off topic, I thought someone might be able to help poor NS find their lost locomotive. Names removed to protect the innocent.... ---------- > Where oh where can this engine be? Hello everyone, I was asked by NS > officials today to help track down a lost locomotive. I guess they figured > me being a railfan and knowing others we could help out. The unit is 3618 > a GE 36-7. It was last reported past the Sewickley scanner on July 29th > dead in consist, and going to Conway for 90 day maintence. This is the > last record of this unit. Please pass this on to anyone you know and > please email me if you see this unit in your jaunts. The folks at NS and > Conway Diesel sure would appreciate it. > Thanks to all and Take Care. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 11:23:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Lost locomotive will it be found? This sounds suspiciously like an urban legend for railfans, but who knows? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Evans, Mark" Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale N-8 From Bowser -- Who Wants It??? Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 10:33:08 -0500 PRR Listers, On Thursday, August 16, 2001 at 7:01 PM, I submitted the following post relating to the proposed HO-scale N-8 from Bowser: >>I would expect a $25.00 N-8 kit to have the following features: >>Finely detailed end cage/ladders >>Separate side grabirons >>Underbody brake detail including levers and rods >>Flush-fitting "glass" >>Since I model the late 1960's, I would also like (as an optional part) flush-mounted windows in the aluminum window panels >for the cupola. I'd pay up to $30.00 to $35.00 if I could get an N-8 with the aforementioned features. The level of detail >>of Bowser's previous cabins is a little too crude for my taste. >>Yours truly, >>Mark T. Evans >>Anaheim, CA On Friday, August 17, 2001 at 2:11 AM, Mr. Vagel Keller posted the following response to my post: >1) Jerry asked for off-list responses. >2) Get real! >Vagel Keller My response to Vagel and the list: 1) Vagel, I DID respond to Jerry's post off list as instructed. Are you saying I can't discuss the features of the proposed model on the list? Jerry, is this subject verboten? 2) I am as real as it gets! It's completely realistic for a cabin car kit with the features and details that I mentioned to fall in the $25 to $35 price range. As proof, check out the Centralia Car Shops ATSF waycars, IC cabooses, and Soo cabooses at http://www.desplaineshobbies.com/centralia.html The cars shown range from $25 to $35 dollars. The ATSF and IC cars come assembled! Like I said in my original post, I'm not interested in a poorly detailed model. If that is the case, I'd rather wait for someone like Centralia to do a high quality N-8. I don't understand why PRR modelers need to settle for second best. Mark T. Evans Anaheim, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] c-LINERS Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 11:47:35 -0400 Listers, In the 1950's (55-59) what would be the common arrangement for C-liners ABA ABBA or AB? TIA Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: [PRR] Keystone Signal, East End of Gallitzin Blowers Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 11:56:42 -0400 Jerry forwarded Dave Seidel's response (from AOL), which is repeated below for reference... My thoughts follow... Dave Seidel is quite correct about the cast-iron "SF" sign, which designated the old tower location and the connection to the Muleshoe for westbounds. I have specific recollection of that sign back in... probably the mid-60's. I MAY have photographed it as well, but to find that slide will require some serious digging. Terry Stuart The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP Railfan B&B 62 Beaver Street Fallston, PA 15066 www.forcomm.net/flagstop > >Since I am an AOL user, I cannot respond to list. There was a red keystone >east of the tunnels with the designation "SF". This was directly opposite >the Jct of the New Portage branch approach to the mainline and thence, into >the Allegheny or Gallitzin Tunnel. I have photo somewhere in the archives >on >a color transparency. > >------------------------ > >My comments: > >This is very plausible. The SF tower had been on the hillside just east of >where the New Portage Branch ducked under tracks 1 & 2 to meet tracks 3 & 4. >When the tower was removed, it makes sense that some sort of marker be >placed there to designate the SF interlocking (remoted from AR). > >Bennett: You started this thread. Was your "Keystone" sign on the pole out >by the interlocking, or much closer to the blowers as your originally >implied? > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Lost locomotive will it be found? Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 12:05:16 -0400 Rich and list: This is more common than you think. SOO line "lost" an Erie Western locomotive for a month. It was found switching in a yard between the GB&W who had rebuilt it, and the EJ&E. Usually, though, the conductor has failed to note where he set out the car or locomotive bad order on his wheel report (or do they still make them out?). Took me a month once to find a car of pipe that the PRR set out between Conway and Columbus. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 10:58 AM Subject: [PRR] Lost locomotive will it be found? > While a little off topic, I thought someone might be able to help poor NS find their lost locomotive. > > Names removed to protect the innocent.... > > ---------- > > Where oh where can this engine be? Hello everyone, I was asked by NS > > officials today to help track down a lost locomotive. I guess they figured > > me being a railfan and knowing others we could help out. The unit is 3618 > > a GE 36-7. It was last reported past the Sewickley scanner on July 29th > > dead in consist, and going to Conway for 90 day maintence. This is the > > last record of this unit. Please pass this on to anyone you know and > > please email me if you see this unit in your jaunts. The folks at NS and > > Conway Diesel sure would appreciate it. > > Thanks to all and Take Care. > > Rich Orr > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 11:07:40 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale N-8 From Bowser -- Who Wants It??? Mark sez: >2) I am as real as it gets! It's completely realistic for a cabin car kit >with the features and details that I mentioned to fall in the $25 to $35 >price range. As proof, check out the Centralia Car Shops ATSF waycars, IC >cabooses, and Soo cabooses at >Like I said in my original post, I'm not interested in a poorly detailed >model. If that is the case, I'd rather wait for someone like Centralia to do >a high quality N-8. I don't understand why PRR modelers need to settle for >second best. Mark, Not to put words in Vagels mouth, but I think the "get real" was with respect to Bowser moving up into the modern era vis a vis detailing their models . Many of us have interacted with Mr. English and have rapidly discovered that he has no interest whatsoever in what we have to say...and, in spite of the lackluster (a polite why of saying LOUSY) detailing, I do keep buying N5 and N5c cabins! Mr English has set his sights on Athearn (the old athearn) as a "model" of what he wants his business to be, and has IMHO completely missed the transition in the industry...heck, $25 buys you a freight car or P2K caboose, ASSEMBLED, and detailed beyond many contest models of a few years ago! Heck, I'd be happy if Bowser would just leave the grabs off entirely to make it easier to put my own on! I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to doing this on 24 GLA hoppers ! And now the worse news...Centralia will most likely never touch the N-8, especially after Lee says he's interested. The business is too competitive and caboose models are NOT a "sales leader" (I think Lee regards at least one of the cabins he has already released as a "loser") Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Lost locomotive will it be found? Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 12:07:42 -0400 In the six moths after the Penn Central merger, the daily total of lost locomotives was between 12 and 25 - some were on it for months! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Lost locomotive will it be found? > This sounds suspiciously like an urban legend for railfans, but who knows? > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:16:49 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Lost locomotive will it be found? In a message dated 08/17/2001 12:01:50 Eastern Daylight Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: > Took me a month once to find a car of > pipe that the PRR set out between Conway and Columbus. > Greg: There is a story which I heard several times from my grandfather about the PRR losing a car load of batteries between Altoona and Pittsburgh. Seems the signal maintainers could not locate the shipment. There was no record of it ever arriving in Pittsburgh. Several months later someone remarked about the X29 battery car that had been sitting outside the roundhouse at 28th St. for about a month. No one had any papers on the car so they opened it and found the "lost" shipment from Altoona. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale N-8 From Bowser -- Who Wants It??? Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 12:19:42 -0700 I for one, am not too sure this is bad news...while I appreciate what Centralia is attempting to do, I wasn't all that exicted about the Santa Fe waycar (Santa Fe for Cabin Car) that they did...It's not anywhere as good as I expected it to be. The trucks are wrong (they used Tichy's Betterndorf truck with the springs), while Lee actually has done the correct trucks for his models, there is no underframe piping detail, minor details on the carbody is missing, and so forth... At least the previous Bowser models were good starts for an accurate model (see Ed Martin's article on modeling a correct N5 some years ago in Mainline Modeler). And even at 25 bucks a shot, it isn't that bad a deal. The Centralia Santa Fe Waycar runs 32.00 per car (plus shipping), and is only available direct. If they had to wholesale the cars they would sell for around $50.00 a car. This is the real price you should compare against, and not the current price. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Fri, 17 Aug 2001 11:07:40 -0500 "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: > > And now the worse news...Centralia will most likely never > touch the N-8, > especially after Lee says he's interested. The business > is too competitive > and caboose models are NOT a "sales leader" (I think Lee > regards at least > one of the cabins he has already released as a "loser") > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be > happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ > ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ > __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | > ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 > 0-0-0 > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:48:31 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale N-8 From Bowser -- Who Wants It??? --On Fri, Aug 17, 2001 10:33 -0500 "Evans, Mark" wrote: > Are you > saying I can't discuss the features of the proposed model on the list? Point well taken. And I apppologize for being snitty about "getting real," too. That was uncalled for, and I thank Bruce for giving me the benefit of the doubt. That being said, I do think you're too quick to reject the offering on the grounds you state. > 2) I am as real as it gets! It's completely realistic for a cabin car kit > with the features and details that I mentioned to fall in the $25 to $35 > price range. As proof, check out the Centralia Car Shops ATSF waycars i would think that depends on the economy of scale a manufacturer is able to acheive with a particular kit. A H-21a hopper kit cost 9.95 retail when first released; subsequent releases were somewhat higher, as I recall. Serious PRR modelers bought them by the twelve-pack, and wanna-be's like me bought them in threes at train shows. But even I ended up with two doz. (all but three built, I'm proud to say). How many H21's in a train trailed by a N8 cabin? Far more than three. Couple that with the following observations: 1) The N8 is ONLY applicable to one railroad, unlike P2K's northeasatern steel caboose and other highly detailed RTR HO rolling stock that has been offered fully assembled at that price, like the IM 10,000 gal tanks in a wide variety of road names. Plus, the N8 was less numerous than the N5b and (I believe) N5c. AND it came along much later than the other two classes and, is, therefore, needed by only a segment of an already small segment of the model railroad consumer base (for which Bowser is almost an exclusive supplier). 2) English reportedly took a bath with the N5b release because the production run far exceeded demand, with the result that his economy of scale was trumped by a warehouse full of unsold kits for too long a period. 3) The alternative is buying brass, which in most cases is $40 more per cabin than I'm willing to pay (I draw the line at $90 for a cabin car, which means I'm outed unless a windfall Sunset car falls from the sky). Now, Bruce's and your criticisms of the Bowser technology are valid. I'll add another one, which I hope Lee hears before it's too late with the GLa run: PRR freight car color, Lee, fer C*****sakes! But for that to change would require a change in corporate culture that is unlikely for the short term. And, Bruce, where are all of those inexpensive, RTR cars assembled? Can you say "Most Favored Nation"? So, I'll pay $25 and do what I did with the N5c ... shave off detail (Bowser's cast on grabs are deliberately low profile to allow ease of removal) and add grabs from Detail Associates or scratch from wire stock, as needed. This has the added advantage of keeping me at my work bench and talking loudly to myself so the wife knows where I am at all times. Vagel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 16:02:54 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] c-LINERS --On Fri, Aug 17, 2001 11:47 -0400 "Chany, Christopher" wrote: > Listers, > > In the 1950's (55-59) what would be the common arrangement for C-liners ABA > ABBA or AB? > According to Eric Hirsimaki's _Black Gold, Black Diamonds_, vol. 2, PRR received 8 ABA sets. In-service photos of C-Liners in Al Stauffer's _Pennsy Power 3_, p. 329-331, show the in both ABA and AA configuration ca. 1959-1961. Because the PRR had learned by 1952 to tailor h.p. to tonnage, either configuration would seem to be appropriate for 1955-59. I know of no published photos of ABBA configurations of C-Liners. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 16:26:15 -0500 From: Jerry Colman Subject: [PRR] Southwind GLc To List: I was wondering if anyone out there can shed some light on the HO-Scale GLc hoppers by Southwind Models featured in the New Products section of the Sept. issue of "Mainline Modeler". I have contacted a few dealers and they couldn't find any info on these hoppers. The only thing I was told is Southwind is a S-Scale importer, but "Mainline Modeler" clearly indicates HO scale. I did a search for Southwind on the web with no luck. These are nice looking models and I would like to know price and dealers. Does anyone out there have any additional info on them? Thanks in advance, Jerry Colman ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 18:30:31 EDT Subject: [PRR] Bowser freight car color (was HO Scale N-8 From Bowser -- In a message dated 8/17/01 3:01:30 PM Central Daylight Time, vck@andrew.cmu.edu writes: << I'll add another one, which I hope Lee hears before it's too late with the GLa run: PRR freight car color, Lee, fer C*****sakes! >> I hope you are not too late, but I can tell you I have not bought a Bowser decorated roundroof yet because of the color. Which, given my progress on painting and decalling, means that I may use the incorrect Athearn hoppers in correct paint color for a while yet, if the GLa color misses for us earlier modelers. And yes, I have heard the color of the H21 and X32 are close for the late 50's and later---just not right for earlier models. In the case of the H21, since I weathered the snot out of 'em anyway, I lived with it and may do so with some GLa's as well. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser freight car color (was HO Scale N-8 From Bowser Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 15:45:09 -0700 Bob Zoeller wrote: " I hope you are not too late, but I can tell you I have not bought a Bowser decorated roundroof yet because of the color." Another much more irritating problem with the decorating of the Bowser Class X31 family models is Bowser's use of the incorrect font for the roadname and car number on every one of the circle keystone schemes. This is unforgivable because (1) they got it right on the X32 and H21 decorated models and (2) they had the opportunity to correct it on the new runs of the Class X31f "turtleback" cars and still got it wrong. This error is very noticeable if the cars are in a cut of correctly lettered Pennsy CK freight cars, and no amount of weathering will make this mistake go away. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 20:26:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] c-LINERS From: Jerry Britton On 8/17/01 4:02 PM, vck@andrew.cmu.edu at (vck@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote: > According to Eric Hirsimaki's _Black Gold, Black Diamonds_, vol. 2, PRR > received 8 ABA sets. In-service photos of C-Liners in Al Stauffer's _Pennsy > Power 3_, p. 329-331, show the in both ABA and AA configuration ca. > 1959-1961. Because the PRR had learned by 1952 to tailor h.p. to tonnage, > either configuration would seem to be appropriate for 1955-59. I know of no > published photos of ABBA configurations of C-Liners. > Nor do I, which makes it frustrating when Life Like only offers AB sets! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 21:27:53 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale N-8 Greetings to Vagel and the List: vck@andrew.cmu.edu wrote: > > The N8 is ONLY applicable to one railroad, unlike P2K's northeasatern > steel caboose and other highly detailed RTR HO rolling stock Small point, perhaps, but remember that N8s appeared in not only several flavors of PRR, as well as Penn Central (including dark green for mail-train service) and Conrail blue...but also, Illinois Central bought some and painted them orange and white. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 22:15:46 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale N-8 @ $25 per copy??? List, For the price of $25.00 per copy what do we get? Interior? Trainphone antennas? Accurate collision posts? Window glass less than six scale inches thick? Quality brake equipment? Choice of steps? Kadee compatible couplers? I admit I would sign up for at least four, but Bowser at $25.00? I have been told that the N-5 and N-5c sold very well. There has been interest in this cabin forever. In fact I was told last year in Chicago that Bowser was doing the N-8 by a very reliable source. I'm a little tired of buying the kit only to have to turn around and pay more for the equipment and couplers that should be in the box. Does anybody really use those NMRA couplers? I mean really? I'll buy, but not as many as I would have at a more reasonable price. Ed Martin "a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" banned by Ed Hall, Director, Cajon Div., PSR, NMRA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 23:16:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] RFLA Communique: Lost Locomotive....... We the members of the RFLA (Railfan Liberation Army) are holding the "missing" unit hostage at a remote location. It will be returned only when our demands are met - starting with the de-forestation of the area above Altoona know as "the Curve" If our demands are not met we will commence the disassembly of the comotive and return it to Roanoke, in very small pieces, via U.S. mails Enclosed please find a chip of black paint to verify our claims Generalissmo Ned Ludd - RFLA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson PRR/ Penn Central Art) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 23:35:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] RFLA Comminique: Lost Locomotive.. Generalissmo Ned Ludd, Lets try to end this thing peacefully! There's no need for harsh talk. We need a "proof of Life". Number Boards or a builder's plate is fine. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 01:17:58 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] c-LINERS In an earlier posting I said, "I know of no published photos of ABBA configurations of C-Liners." Well, as we all know, the Pennsy will make a liar out of anyone who dares make such a sweeping statement. _Pennsy Diesel Years 6_, bottom of p. 70 (you have to count foreward form p. 48 because there aren't any page numbers after that). "And what to my wandering eyes should appear ..." Feb. 1961, an ABBA set of C-liners heading up a train. And that lash-up I was sure included a C-liner with an F7B and FA2? Well, it was actually a FA2 cab/F7B/Alco rebuild Shark (PDY2, p. 53). Books are better than memory. Vagel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty \(The Cos\)" Subject: [PRR] Visit to Knobels Park: Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 01:37:01 -0400 Why in the world would anybody post anything on a railroad list in connection with Knobels Amusement Park In the back of the park, part of the original area of the park is a small live steam operation, called the Ole Smokey Train. Nothing major in this day and age of live scale steamers, however, thats only small part of it. Old Smokey crosses the creek that cuts through the middle of the park  on a real gem of a through truss. Not just any type of through truss, but a Phoenix Bridge Company  Phoenix column wrought iron bridge. While the bridge is in need of some sand blasting and other work, it is a great study in early bridge design and engineering. What does all this have to do with the real railroads of the world? Well the Phoenix Bridge Company was one of the first mass producers of standardized bridges in the US. The Phoenix Column was integral in the construction of many of the PRR, RDG and CofNJ bridges along with the original Kinzua viaduct and its later steel replacement (the current structure). Sorry I didnt have my camera with me  but Ill remember next year. So all of you turn of the century types and forgotten branch line modelers now have a true phototype of a truly original bridge construction method. Of course if you need more information or just need some interesting reading  try to find a copy of Without Fitting, Filing, or Chipping an Illustrated History of the Phoenix Bridge Company by my friend Thomas R. Winpenny. Sorry for the plug, but there really is more to railroads then just trains. Cos Cos Communications, Inc. Home Page Rail Road Pages ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 10:26:34 -0500 From: Jerry Colman Subject: [PRR] Southwind GLc To List: I was wondering if anyone out there can shed some light on the HO-Scale GLc hoppers by Southwind Models featured in the New Products section of the Sept. issue of "Mainline Modeler". I have contacted a few dealers and they couldn't find any info on these hoppers. The only thing I was told is Southwind is a S-Scale importer, but "Mainline Modeler" clearly indicates HO scale. I did a search for Southwind on the web with no luck. These are nice looking models and I would like to know price and dealers. Does anyone out there have any additional info on them? Thanks in advance, Jerry Colman ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 10:34:42 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Ex-PRR C-424 for sale From: John Sheets This is a repost from the Anthracite RR list, read down it includes mentoin of an ex-PRR C-424 John __________________________ Message: 1 Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 02:30:09 -0000 From: "Mark Mathu" Subject: Anyone need an E-L Alco C-424? Hi all, I received the following message from a friend who is involved in the possible purchase/rehabilitation/scrapping of three Alco locomotives stored in Arkansas. Two of the three locomotives are GBW #320-321, which are ex-Erie Lackawanna Alco C-424s. The GBW purchased the units after Conrail declared them surplus and they were rebuilt in 1980 in Hornell NY. If anyone has any possible leads on an organization which might be interested in these locomotives for restoration, please get in touch with Ed Bowers at eddbowers@earthlink.net. (You can leave me out of the process - I'm just a friend trying to hook him up with any interested parties.) [The other ex-GBW Alco C-424 locomotive sitting in Arkansas is from the same Hornell NY rebuild program: ex-Pennsylvania RR #2415 (PRR's only Alco C-424 on the roster). A fourth Alco C-424 from the same rebuild program already found a home with the Reading Co. Technical and Historical Society.] Recent photos of the locomotives are at http://gb_route.tripod.com/2000ak.htm. Thanks, Mark Mathu / Whitefish Bay WI ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Eric Lauterbach" Subject: [PRR] Sunset M1a question Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 18:00:10 +0000 While not in the market for any brass engine right now, as I am saving for the P2K PRR 2-8-8-2, I do like to window shop and keep up with current market prices. I recently saw a Sunset Samhongsa built M1a listed, and I do not think it is a prestige line engine. I checked the Brown book and it listed a Sunset M1a being imported in 1980 before the prestige line engine. Can anyone tell me about this engine, like how detailed is it? Is it accurate? I am familiar with the GEM, WSM, and prestige Sunset M1a, how does this compare? Thanks, Eric _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 14:52:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] N6b Cabin Lists, I am just about to debut my G Scale 1:29th PRR Class N6b Cabin. Again this is a scratch built model similar to the N5b class I previously finished. It is just about finished. I need to apply the final graphics. To get a sneak-peak feel free to stop in at http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/N6b_index.html As of now just a few pics are posted. I will go in later and add text on how this model was built. With the talk of the new HO Cabin from Bowser, I am anxious to start my next G Scale project, The N8 Class. I am an HO modeler but the size of these G Scale beasts has something to offer too. Til later, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 17:05:46 -0500 From: prrbill Subject: [PRR] EP-22's on the Main Line When I was a kid back in the 50's, my dad used to take us to the Wynnewood station to see all the trains along the Main Line. Sadly, things aren't what they used to be and the PRR livery has been replaced by many other names and colors. But none have had the prestige of the signage "Pennsylvania Railroad". Today, at about 4:20 PM, the PRR lived again on the Main Line as Bennett Levin took his two EP-22's in Tuscan Red with those magnificent Keystones and a string of private varnish brought up by the 120 car westbound on a 4 day tour. Watching the plume of smoke, hearing the blare of the horns and the flashing of the lights (thanks, Bennett and Eric) of those EMD's as they traveled from Narbeth towards the Wynnewood station brought back some really pleasant memories of GG1's, P5a's, K4s', MP54's and many others. As the engines roared past me, I can only offer my sincere thanks to the Levin family for all their efforts on the restoration of those EMD's. I know I missed at least two shots as I tried to see who was in the cab of #5711 but the camera came rapidly back to shoot as many pictures as possible before the train rounded the Wynnewood bend. As a lady and her daughter remarked to me, "I know those aren't the normal Amtrak colors; that must be a special train", I can only say if you have an opportunity to see #5711 and #5809 running in the future, take along some friends to see what once was..... and still is. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 18:13:56 -0400 From: Bob Johnson Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Archives Questions Sincere thanks to all who participated in answering the four questions that were posted on July 16, 21 and 30 and on August 6. This concludes the survey of future user interests. Your replies are being compiled and will be sent to the members of the PRRT&HS Archives Committee for their information and discussion. A total of 37 responses to the four questions were received from 22 people. It is somewhat reassuring that there were no real surprises in the responses. I hope that means we are on the right track. Still, there were some interesting ideas expressed, making the whole exercise well worthwhile. Special thanks are due to Jerry for allowing us to use the list for this discussion. Thanks, Bob Johnson, Chairman PRRT&HS Archive Committee ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 21:07:14 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] EP-22's on the Main Line From: Jerry Britton On 8/18/01 6:05 PM, prrbill at (prrbill@Op.Net) wrote: > As a lady and her daughter remarked to me, "I know those aren't the > normal Amtrak colors; that must be a special train", I can only say if > you have an opportunity to see #5711 and #5809 running in the future, > take along some friends to see what once was..... and still is. > I plan to be at HARRIS for the 6 a.m. departure tomorrow morning. Bennett has told me that they go from their immediately to Lucknow for fueling. Should get some more shots there. I intend to follow her for a few more miles to get shots...below Dauphin, above Dauphin, and perhaps as far as Millersburg. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Sunset M1a question Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 20:20:50 -0500 Eric--While I don't have the M1a, I do have a Sunset/Samhongsa M1 of the same 1980 vintage. My Brown Book has a note that says, "Well-built model." It is. I would have to rate this significantly better than Gem, Westside or Prestige. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 23:39:13 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: [PRR] N5a Question In NJ International's _Caboose Data Book No. 2: Cabin Cars of the Pennsylvania and Long Island Railroads_, the drawing shows extended underframe w/ crash bars. The notation says, "Introduced in 1937, rebuilt from class N5 cars; Had Duryea spring udnerframe AB brake system and Ajax brake wheels" Can I take this to mean that cabin cars with extended underframes and crash bars were in service by 1938? Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 09:31:19 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Chasing the "Northern Express"!!! (LONG) From: Jerry Britton Wow, what a morning.... But first, before sharing my tale, I want to thank Bennett Levin & family for making the whole adventure possible. Thank you!!! I arrived at the Harrisburg (Pa.) station at 5:36 a.m. this morning, just as "The Northern Express" excursion train reported her successful brake test over the scanner. It was still very dark and I was hoping for a quick sunrise to aid in photography. I was positioned on the wall along the right of way, just west of HARRIS tower. A dozen or so others were on hand for the event. At about 5:50 a.m., the E-8 at head let out three shorts. Wow! What a beautiful sound! We thought perhaps they were leaving early, but they were not. At about 5:55 a.m. it came over the scanner that a late arrival had just pulled into the parking lot. Can you imaging missing this one!!! Shortly thereafter, "NS 21" received approval to head north. The bell came on, three shorts, and then I uttered aloud "Damned ditch lights!" I guess I should have expected it, but I hadn't! The train passed before my, about forty feet away. Wow! I did snap some shots, but how well they turn out won't be known for a few hours (don't have a digital camera yet). The entire consist was beautiful. I hope someone posts a complete list, but there was one, if not two cars from the California Zephyr. Bennett's PRR #120 brought up the rear. Knowing ahead of time that they would stop for fuel at Lucknow enabled me to head for the wye at Rockville. I got there with plenty of time to spare and, after a very nice (really) conversation with an NS security officer I got several shots of The Northern Express taking the crossovers onto the Buffalo line and coming past me. Then came the challenge: the train was accelerating and I had to do some maneuvering to get back alongside... I had to go back down to the old river road, turn north through Fort Hunter, head east, and pick up the 322/22 highway heading west. Once on the highway, speeds were maintained over 80 to try to catch up. If this new stretch of highway hadn't been opened over the past two years, I would never have caught up via the old road through Dauphin. No sign as the highway started climbing above the tracks, which were going out of sight. I saw a block signal with a STOP indication, so I knew I must have closed within a mile or so. As the highway descended, I found that I was dead even with the head end. There was not photo op, as I know the highway would cross over in about two miles and there were better positions head. I continued at high speed. I crossed over and now the tracks were between the highway and the mountain's edge, protected by a slide fence. I passed more than a dozen cars stopped on the road, with their occupants' waiting trackside with cameras. I pulled over quickly about a mile south of the Clarks Ferry Bridge at Amity Hall. Got out, and had about a minute wait. I got shots as The Northern Express came around the bend and closeups as she came by me. Back in the car and heading north again. I left 322/22 and took route (???) towards Halifax, as it parallels the tracks for a few miles. I got behind someone who had no clue what was going on. We were going 60 mph and fortunately they were keeping up with the locomotives. I got a few shots at this speed, looking at the locos through my windshield. I then hit a passing zone and fired passed, again at about 80 mph. I screamed ahead as I knew this road would soon flyover the tracks and leave them for an inland route. I made a high speed stop on the bridge, threw it in park, and dove out just in time to snap two more shots. My original plan was to go all the way to Millersburg, but at the speed the train was maintaining, I knew there would be no way to meet or beat her there given the inland route I would be forced to take. It was time for logic to override emotion and turn around. Wow, what an adrenaline-filled 60 minutes!!! Photos to come... P.S. If anyone else took pics elsewhere on the tour and would care to share them via the "Keystone Crossings" web site, please contact me off-list. Thank you much! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] EP-22's on the Main Line Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 13:13:28 -0400 Does anyone know what time they will arrive & depart Erie, and where exactly they'll be stopping for the night? --- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Britton To: ; PRR-Talk Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 9:07 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] EP-22's on the Main Line > On 8/18/01 6:05 PM, prrbill at (prrbill@Op.Net) wrote: > > > As a lady and her daughter remarked to me, "I know those aren't the > > normal Amtrak colors; that must be a special train", I can only say if > > you have an opportunity to see #5711 and #5809 running in the future, > > take along some friends to see what once was..... and still is. > > > I plan to be at HARRIS for the 6 a.m. departure tomorrow morning. Bennett > has told me that they go from their immediately to Lucknow for fueling. > Should get some more shots there. I intend to follow her for a few more > miles to get shots...below Dauphin, above Dauphin, and perhaps as far as > Millersburg. > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 14:43:19 -0500 From: Jerry Colman Subject: [PRR] PRR GLc To List: I was wondering if anyone out there can shed some light on the HO-Scale GLc hoppers by Southwind Models featured in the New Products section of the Sept. issue of "Mainline Modeler". I have contacted a few dealers and they couldn't find any info on these hoppers. The only thing I was told is Southwind is a S-Scale importer, but "Mainline Modeler" clearly indicates HO scale. I did a search for Southwind on the web with no luck. These are nice looking models and I would like to know price and dealers. Does anyone out there have any additional info on them? Thanks in advance, Jerry Colman ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Southwind GLc and the N8 Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 22:54:43 -0400 Jerry and list, While reading the "interaction" on the HO plastic N-8, I came across your inquiry on the S Scale only importer Southwind Models. As the resident S Scale SPF on the list, www.southwindmodels.com will hopefully be up before the end of the year. In the mean time here is some info for you. Southwind Models Mr. Jettie Padgett P.O. Box 3175 Plant City Fl. 33564-3175 Phone 813-752-1636 Fax 813-752-0656 I got him the plans and Builders photos. I also helped with the pilot model. Please contact me off list if you want to discuss modeling the mighty PRR in S Scale. Now, back to the N-8 discussion. If you are really serious about wanting a quality plastic N-8, I say DO IT YOURSELF. Form a partnership, get a few Sugar Daddies and DO IT. I could point you to where almost all of the quality model railroad products are being made today to get it made. That is how my company Pennsy S Models started. One person too many said "I wish we had"...... (you will in the blank) We now have the pilot model for our X-29 project with the G-26 due next year. Thank you Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:42:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] High Quality N8 In a message dated 8/18/01 1:12:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Subject: Re: [PRR] HO Scale N-8 From Bowser -- Who Wants It??? From: "Evans, Mark" Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 10:33:08 -0500 PRR Listers, On Thursday, August 16, 2001 at 7:01 PM, I submitted the following post relating to the proposed HO-scale N-8 from Bowser: >>I would expect a $25.00 N-8 kit to have the following features: >>Finely detailed end cage/ladders >>Separate side grabirons >>Underbody brake detail including levers and rods >>Flush-fitting "glass" >>Since I model the late 1960's, I would also like (as an optional part) flush-mounted windows in the aluminum window panels >for the cupola. I'd pay up to $30.00 to $35.00 if I could get an N-8 with the aforementioned features. The level of detail >>of Bowser's previous cabins is a little too crude for my taste. >>Yours truly, >>Mark T. Evans >>Anaheim, CA Like I said in my original post, I'm not interested in a poorly detailed model. If that is the case, I'd rather wait for someone like Centralia to do a high quality N-8. I don't understand why PRR modelers need to settle for second best. Mark T. Evans Anaheim, CA >> I also model the late 60's and would love to have the aluminum window refits. My point of reference would be a plastic model that looks as good as my Alpha Models cabins, otherwise my contribution to the volume of sales would be small. What I'd probably expect is a presentable N8 and then an add-on flush glass window kit, something like the Run 8 kits that I understand are no longer available. If total cost was under $40, it would still probably be worthwhile for me to replace my fleet of 6 Alpha Models and Alco Models N8's, and sell the brass off to the collectors. I might eventually go as high as 10 cars, which of course doesn't bode well at all for the kind of volume Lee English needs to do this project. I know from talking to Lee two years ago that the N5 and N5c haven't done the volume that the H43's or the H21's or even the X31 and X32 have brought in. Trouble is, most model railroaders don't need a Pennsy cabin car. And the modelers who do model Pennsy buy many cars for each cabin. This has made the Englishes a little reluctant to come back and do the N8 for us. I think eventually, the N8 will get done. But strictly from economics, it's not an urgent project -- another Pennsy boxcar such as the X23 would probably do much higher volume. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Modeling the Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 07:56:07 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] N5a Question Vagel, >In NJ International's _Caboose Data Book No. 2: Cabin Cars of the >Pennsylvania and Long Island Railroads_, the drawing shows extended >underframe w/ crash bars. The notation says, "Introduced in 1937, rebuilt >from class N5 cars; Had Duryea spring udnerframe AB brake system and Ajax >brake wheels" > >Can I take this to mean that cabin cars with extended underframes and crash >bars were in service by 1938? In short, yes, but as I recall, the N5a class was very small. N5b production was somewhat greater, but was post 1938 (1941?), and N5c production didn't start until well into WWII...I beleive the N5b incorporated these changes into a "production" cabin, as opposed to a rebuilt (N5a). Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:37:01 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Chasing "The Northern Express" From: Jerry Britton I've created a special page for info and pictures about The Northern Express excursion... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/northernexpress2001/ Can anyone fill in the car names and owner of the rest of the train? I've posted the first batch of pics, from Jim Clay. My pics should be posted this evening. Geez, gotta get a digital camera!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] EP-22's on the Main Line Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:34:12 -0400 Jerry Shickler inquired... >Does anyone know what time they will arrive & depart Erie, and where exactly >they'll be stopping for the night? > Jerry, et al: Here are the Sunday and Monday schedules from their published information via my website. I do not know where they spend Sunday night, however. 8/19/01 Here's today's condensed schedule if you are railfanning The Northern Express with Bennett Levin's beautiful Pennsy E-units... Sunday, August 19: depart Harrisburg, PA at 6:00 am to Erie, PA arriving at 7:00 pm Via the Norfolk Southern Buffalo line to Emporium, and the Allegheny & Eastern Railroad from Emporium to Erie. This is all ex PRR trackage. Arrival in Erie will be in time for dinner. 8/20/01 Here's today's condensed schedule if you are railfanning The Northern Express with Bennett Levin's beautiful Pennsy E-units... Monday, August 20: depart Erie, PA at 6:00 am traveling over CSX to Conneaut, OH and then Bessemer & Lake Erie to N. Bessemer. At N. Bessemer, the Union Railroad will operate the train into Duquesne, reverse directions and go back to N. Bessemer, where the B&LE again takes over and moves the train to Butler, where it is interchanged to the Buffalo & Pittsburgh and spends the night. Terry Stuart The FALLSTON FLAGSTOP Railfan B&B 62 Beaver Street Fallston, PA 15066 www.forcomm.net/flagstop ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] N5a Question Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:20:31 -0500 Good morning, Vagel and Bruce--Pennsy Power III has a photo of N5a 477267 on p. 416. It appears to be a builders photo. The caption also says converted from N5 in 1937. The cabin has futura lettering so that would tend to verify the date. The Keystone of December 1973 lists all four of the N5a's (477110, 477292, 477587 are the other three) and provides a little information. Vagel wrote-- > > > >Can I take this to mean that cabin cars with extended underframes and crash > >bars were in service by 1938? > Yes and no. Extended underframes yes, crash bars no. The PPIII photo shows no crash bars, but it does have AB brakes and power handbrake. Perhaps the drawing you saw was an amended drawing from a later date than 1937. Bruce wrote-- > > In short, yes, but as I recall, the N5a class was very small. N5b > production was somewhat greater, but was post 1938 (1941?), and N5c > production didn't start until well into WWII...I beleive the N5b > incorporated these changes into a "production" cabin, as opposed to a > rebuilt (N5a). > According to the Keystone cited above, the N5b class (200 cabins) was built new starting in 1941. N5c (199) was also built new starting in 1942. Both were built with crash bars and AB brakes, but no Duryea underframe. In a related matter, it is interesting and somewhat surprising to note that not all of class N5 were modified with crash bar and stove relocated from the end to nearer the cupola. Penn Valley's The Ore Train has footage of just such a cabin; it is being used behind the second pusher. Now throw into this mix which ones had trainphone antennas. I don't think I have seen a photo of an N5 with the antenna. I have not seen an N5a with the antenna. Many but not all of the N5b class had antennas; the same goes for N5c. PRR cabins definitely did not all look alike. If modeling in HO you can always do a different variation using Bowser models as a starting point. As always, when modeling Pennsy, use a photo for reference! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Chasing "The Northern Express" Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:34:16 -0500 Jerry, Thanks for posting the photos. I look forward to yours. Did anybody take photos of the trainphone routing at the rear of the unit? Inquiring modelers want to know. Thanks, Andy -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 8:37 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Chasing "The Northern Express" I've created a special page for info and pictures about The Northern Express excursion... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/northernexpress2001/ Can anyone fill in the car names and owner of the rest of the train? I've posted the first batch of pics, from Jim Clay. My pics should be posted this evening. Geez, gotta get a digital camera!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 13:37:54 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Digital Cameras From: Jerry Britton Okay, before you go scolding the listmaster for an "off topic" topic on his own list, "Boy, I sure wish I had had a digital camera yesterday when I was shooting those two restored PRR E-8's!" Truth is, then I wouldn't have the cost of the film, developing, and time of scanning. Still gotta scan those prints from yesterday! I figure there is a decent amount of digital camera experience on the list. A lot of railfans have them. I want 3+ megapixel and I'm trying to keep the cost below $700. I want go into all of my specs desired, but does anyone have experience with the Olympus C-3040 Zoom? That's the current model I am looking at. Cost new (and not via eBay) is currently $699. Any comments? Since the topic is "related" to railfanning, responses may be "on list" -- at least until it becomes a runaway train. I'll let you know if that happens! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 13:53:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Digital Cameras Jerry, Not sure of the specifics but I had experience with my brothers digital camera from Hewitt-Packard. It was the Photosmart 315 model. It appears to be a good value for 300.00. They have upscale models as well but for model photos it came in handy when I took pics of my G scale Cabin Car. A huge difference than the 35mm I normally use. You can see the difference in one glace. I plan on looking into one myself in the future.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 13:57:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] N5a Question From: Jerry Britton On 8/20/01 11:20 AM, Steve Hoxie (steveh@dotstar.net) wrote: > Good morning, Vagel and Bruce--Pennsy Power III has a photo of N5a 477267 on > p. 416. It appears to be a builders photo. The caption also says converted > from N5 in 1937. The cabin has futura lettering so that would tend to > verify the date. The Keystone of December 1973 lists all four of the N5a's > (477110, 477292, 477587 are the other three) and provides a little > information. New info does follow, please look below... > > Vagel wrote-- >>> >>> Can I take this to mean that cabin cars with extended underframes and > crash >>> bars were in service by 1938? >> > Yes and no. Extended underframes yes, crash bars no. The PPIII photo shows > no crash bars, but it does have AB brakes and power handbrake. Perhaps the > drawing you saw was an amended drawing from a later date than 1937. > > Bruce wrote-- >> >> In short, yes, but as I recall, the N5a class was very small. N5b >> production was somewhat greater, but was post 1938 (1941?), and N5c >> production didn't start until well into WWII...I beleive the N5b >> incorporated these changes into a "production" cabin, as opposed to a >> rebuilt (N5a). >> > According to the Keystone cited above, the N5b class (200 cabins) was built > new starting in 1941. N5c (199) was also built new starting in 1942. Both > were built with crash bars and AB brakes, but no Duryea underframe. > > In a related matter, it is interesting and somewhat surprising to note that > not all of class N5 were modified with crash bar and stove relocated from > the end to nearer the cupola. Penn Valley's The Ore Train has footage of > just such a cabin; it is being used behind the second pusher. > > Now throw into this mix which ones had trainphone antennas. I don't think I > have seen a photo of an N5 with the antenna. I have not seen an N5a with > the antenna. Many but not all of the N5b class had antennas; the same goes > for N5c. PRR cabins definitely did not all look alike. If modeling in HO > you can always do a different variation using Bowser models as a starting > point. > Don't forget the Cabin Car Roster on "Keystone Crossings": http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/cabins/ This data is as of the mid-1950's. I just did a search on Class = N5a and got the four expected results. Clicking to view the detail page reveals that none of these four has either collision posts or trainphones. Check out the database to ponder other combinations. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] Westside D-16sb... Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:04:11 -0400 Hi all, Just wanted an assessment of Westside/Samhongsa's D-16sb in HO... Are they pretty accurate? Good runners? Is $190 for an unpainted one a decent price? Thanks! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 12:18:26 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] CT1000 bibliography, 8th revision Thanks for information received to (in alphabetical order) Jim Aldridge, Jeff Feldmeier, Bob Johnson, Pat McKinney, Paul Schopp, Tom Sellers, Garry Spear, Dave Wartell. Tom has a "List of Stations and Sidings" dated 1877 on offer at eBay. It is form 89 - C. R., and superceeds the edition of 1876. Note that the title says nothing about "Instructions for Reporting..." In addition I can testify that the 1918 CT1000 exists as CT1000A Eastern and Western Penna Divisions, in addition to the CT1000D Northern Div, reported previously. Editions were printed in: 1946 Supplement to 1945 edition, date not certain 1945 ------------+ 1923 | 1918 | 1915 | 1913 | 1911 Form C. T. 1000 ???? | (???? means "don't know") 1907 | 1906 | 1905 | ???? | 1903 | 1902 | 1901 | 1900 ------------+ 1899 Form number not known ???? Form number not known 1895 ------------+ ???? | 1891 Form C. R. 76 ???? | 1888 | 1887 ------------+ ???? Form number not known 1882 ------------+ ???? Form 76 C. R. 1879 ------------+ 1878 Form number not known 1877 Form 89 C. R. <---------- new data 1876 Form number not known <-- new data ???? So, something like a CT1000 existed in 1876, 1.25 centuries ago. Has anyone else found any other CT1000's? There are still some question marks up there. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Chasing "The Northern Express" Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:34:16 -0400 Andy & List, Just a quick comment on the Photo & question by Jim Clay of the domed observation at Harrisburg. No domed cars of any type were allowed on the Penny in electrified territory on account of close approximity to the energized catenary. I don't know about the rest of the railroad, but I have never seen a photo of a domed car in a PRR consist. They may have been banned from interchange service because you would never know where one might show up and inadvertantly be assigned to a train whose destination would take it through an electrified area. If anyone knows more on this subject, please elaborate to the list. Thanks C. Burnley Jr. PRRT&HS #271 -----Original Message----- From: Andy Cich [mailto:ajc5150@home.com] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 1:34 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: RE: [PRR] Chasing "The Northern Express" Jerry, Thanks for posting the photos. I look forward to yours. Did anybody take photos of the trainphone routing at the rear of the unit? Inquiring modelers want to know. Thanks, Andy -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry Britton Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 8:37 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Chasing "The Northern Express" I've created a special page for info and pictures about The Northern Express excursion... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/northernexpress2001/ Can anyone fill in the car names and owner of the rest of the train? I've posted the first batch of pics, from Jim Clay. My pics should be posted this evening. Geez, gotta get a digital camera!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:02:20 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Chasing "The Northern Express" Greetings to Charles, Andy and the List: Can't speak to the issue of the CZ dome in the Northern Express specifically, but for the most part, the clearance issue is a non-issue. Amtrak Superliner cars can and have operated under the wires on Amtrak's Harrisburg-Phila. line. Even more to the point, Conrail 55 was an ex-Santa Fe full-length Budd Co. dome that regularly operated under the wires in Office Car Special service. It was no problem for it to operate under the catenary via Amtrak between Harrisburg and Philadelphia, and it did so many times. As far as looking back to PRR days is concerned, leased Budd Co. dome cars did operate regularly in the consist of the Chicago-Miami South Wind. Hope this helps. Dan Cupper Burnley, Charles wrote: > > Andy & List, > Just a quick comment on the Photo & question by Jim Clay of the domed > observation at Harrisburg. No domed cars of any type were allowed on the > Penny > in electrified territory on account of close approximity to the energized > catenary. > I don't know about the rest of the railroad, but I have never seen a photo > of a > domed car in a PRR consist. They may have been banned from interchange > service because > you would never know where one might show up and inadvertantly be assigned > to a train > whose destination would take it through an electrified area. > If anyone knows more on this subject, please elaborate to the list. > Thanks > C. Burnley Jr. > PRRT&HS #271 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Aeolus3@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:10:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Digital Cameras In a message dated 8/20/01 12:47:50 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << I want 3+ megapixel and I'm trying to keep the cost below $700. I want go into all of my specs desired, but does anyone have experience with the Olympus C-3040 Zoom? That's the current model I am looking at. Cost new (and not via eBay) is currently $699. >> I have an older Sony Digital. And ya know it doesn't do 1/2 bad with HO Scale Models either! Loren Johnson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Chasing "The Northern Express" Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:22:36 -0400 Lists: As far as I can recall, the clearance problems preventing the operation of dome cars were the Virginia Ave. tunnel in Washington and the Hudson River tubes in New York. For this reason SAL had to build a lounge car with a glass windowed roof at standard height. The "South Wind" was one of the few "Blue Ribbon" trains that did not operate into Penn Station, New York. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Cupper" To: "Burnley, Charles" Cc: "'Andy Cich'" ; "'PRR-TALK@DSOP.COM'" Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 4:02 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Chasing "The Northern Express" > Greetings to Charles, Andy and the List: > > Can't speak to the issue of the CZ dome in the Northern Express > specifically, but for the most part, the clearance issue is a non-issue. > Amtrak Superliner cars can and have operated under the wires on Amtrak's > Harrisburg-Phila. line. > > Even more to the point, Conrail 55 was an ex-Santa Fe full-length Budd > Co. dome that regularly operated under the wires in Office Car Special > service. It was no problem for it to operate under the catenary via > Amtrak between Harrisburg and Philadelphia, and it did so many times. > > As far as looking back to PRR days is concerned, leased Budd Co. dome > cars did operate regularly in the consist of the Chicago-Miami South > Wind. > > Hope this helps. > > Dan Cupper > > > > > Burnley, Charles wrote: > > > > Andy & List, > > Just a quick comment on the Photo & question by Jim Clay of the domed > > observation at Harrisburg. No domed cars of any type were allowed on the > > Penny > > in electrified territory on account of close approximity to the energized > > catenary. > > I don't know about the rest of the railroad, but I have never seen a photo > > of a > > domed car in a PRR consist. They may have been banned from interchange > > service because > > you would never know where one might show up and inadvertantly be assigned > > to a train > > whose destination would take it through an electrified area. > > If anyone knows more on this subject, please elaborate to the list. > > Thanks > > C. Burnley Jr. > > PRRT&HS #271 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:48:32 EDT Subject: [PRR] Digital Cameras Suck In a message dated 8/20/01 4:17:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Aeolus3@aol.com writes: << I want 3+ megapixel >> HUH? You might as well go for the good one my wife bought me one from HSN ($200 -$225) for Christmas - All the "techies" in my family - including 2 with degrees in Computer Science - couldn't get it to work with my Dell Computer at Home (The camera worked ok on its' own - burned batteries like a chain smoker) I've decided to go with my Asahi Pentax a few more years. Anyone with experience with "You've got pictures" out there? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 17:03:50 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Digital Cameras Jerry Britton wrote: > > Okay, before you go scolding the listmaster for an "off topic" topic on his > own list, "Boy, I sure wish I had had a digital camera yesterday when I was > shooting those two restored PRR E-8's!" > > Truth is, then I wouldn't have the cost of the film, developing, and time of > scanning. Still gotta scan those prints from yesterday! > > I figure there is a decent amount of digital camera experience on the list. > A lot of railfans have them. > > I want 3+ megapixel and I'm trying to keep the cost below $700. I want go > into all of my specs desired, but does anyone have experience with the > Olympus C-3040 Zoom? That's the current model I am looking at. Cost new (and > not via eBay) is currently $699. > > Any comments? Jerry, The Olympus is a good unit as is the just recently superseded Nikon CoolPix 950. I've seen posts that put the Nikon at $749 as a closeout at places like Staples, Office Depot, etc. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 17:08:47 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] Chasing "The Northern Express" Dan and rest, I was fortunate enough to have ridden the Conrail OCS in June of 1998. I was in the former ATSF Dome car and when riding under the catenary at 30th Street, we had to leave the upper level and go to the lower level or another car. Safety issues were the reasons given. Bill Morlitz Dan Cupper wrote: > > Greetings to Charles, Andy and the List: > > Can't speak to the issue of the CZ dome in the Northern Express > specifically, but for the most part, the clearance issue is a non-issue. > Amtrak Superliner cars can and have operated under the wires on Amtrak's > Harrisburg-Phila. line. > > Even more to the point, Conrail 55 was an ex-Santa Fe full-length Budd > Co. dome that regularly operated under the wires in Office Car Special > service. It was no problem for it to operate under the catenary via > Amtrak between Harrisburg and Philadelphia, and it did so many times. > > As far as looking back to PRR days is concerned, leased Budd Co. dome > cars did operate regularly in the consist of the Chicago-Miami South > Wind. > > Hope this helps. > > Dan Cupper > > Burnley, Charles wrote: > > > > Andy & List, > > Just a quick comment on the Photo & question by Jim Clay of the domed > > observation at Harrisburg. No domed cars of any type were allowed on the > > Penny > > in electrified territory on account of close approximity to the energized > > catenary. > > I don't know about the rest of the railroad, but I have never seen a photo > > of a > > domed car in a PRR consist. They may have been banned from interchange > > service because > > you would never know where one might show up and inadvertantly be assigned > > to a train > > whose destination would take it through an electrified area. > > If anyone knows more on this subject, please elaborate to the list. > > Thanks > > C. Burnley Jr. > > PRRT&HS #271 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:16:43 +0000 Subject: [PRR] Digital Cameras << I want 3+ megapixel >> I own an Olympus D-360L 1.3 Meg camera with an extra SmatMedia card and a USB Card Reader. I can put the SmartMedia card into the reader and access it just like a hard drive. Now, I do not need (or want) LARGE file sizes. For web work and 5x7 prints, it works well. For the Career Center where I used to work, I recommended and bought a 2 Meg Olympus camera with a reader and two 32 Meg Smart Cards. This gave us 8x10 capability if wanted and yet was not too large a filesize for web work. Personally, I would never recommend a 3 Meg camera for anything but a professional photo print of 11x14. Bigger is not necessarily better. Large sizes take longer to save and use more storage space. Batteries? Get a recharger and two sets of rechargable batteries if you are getting the AA size. That's the only way to go. BTW - the LCD panel sucks juice like crazy. You want a regular viewer too, and a zoom. I'll go back to sleep now. (You can see some of my resized digital shots at http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ ) Roger Roger Hensley rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ == == Railroads of Madison County (Indiana) == ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 17:27:39 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] Chasing "The Northern Express" Jerry, Those are some really great pictures. Many thanks to both you and Jim. Please tell Jim that's Bennett with his back to the camera on the back of the 120 car. Best, Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 17:46:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Chasing "The Northern Express" Somebody correct me, and it's not PRR trains or track, but I believe that B&O ran domes into Washington Union Station at one time. I think people had to keep out of the dome in electrified territory. And a loooong time ago there was a steam fantrip from Elizabeth NJ to Washington and back, via CNJ-Reading-B&O; as the train pulled into Washington I was watching from a window or Dutch door, and there was a definite arc at one point from the catenary to what looked to be the engine cab. Presumably dome cars are even higher than steam engines. Actually I can roughly date the event, not to the calendar but as to how we did the trip: the Metropark train station had recently opened, and was being used only by long distance trains (how times have changed!) We parked a car at Metropark but had to WALK to the old Iselin station to catch a PRR (PC maybe?) local to Elizabeth. We came back from DC on a regular through train which did indeed stop at Metropark. So we made a one-day, round trip Elizabeth to Washington on CNJ-RDG-B&O-PRR. The steam trip itself returned the next day. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 18:19:19 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Chasing "The Northern Express" Greetings to Bill, List and All: Yes, agreed, 30th Street was the pinch point. The Superliners could go in there--it was for a travel agent convention and display--but only on one specific track and only with some advance modification to the facilities. Never personally saw the OCS dome 55 go into 30th Street, but I know that once it was out in the open, though still under catenary, it was not a safety issue. As to the B&O domes, yes, they did operate under catenary at Washington Union Station but it was as John Bobsin said--they had to be unoccupied. Amtrak seems not to have any difficulty operating the Capitol Limited under the wire there--that's been a Superliner-equipped train for many years now. Hope this helps. Dan Cupper -------------------------------- prrbill wrote: > > Dan and rest, > > I was fortunate enough to have ridden the Conrail OCS in June of 1998. > I was in the former ATSF Dome car and when riding under the catenary at > 30th Street, we had to leave the upper level and go to the lower level > or another car. Safety issues were the reasons given. > > Bill Morlitz > > Dan Cupper wrote: > > > > Greetings to Charles, Andy and the List: > > > > Can't speak to the issue of the CZ dome in the Northern Express > > specifically, but for the most part, the clearance issue is a non-issue. > > Amtrak Superliner cars can and have operated under the wires on Amtrak's > > Harrisburg-Phila. line. > > > > Even more to the point, Conrail 55 was an ex-Santa Fe full-length Budd > > Co. dome that regularly operated under the wires in Office Car Special > > service. It was no problem for it to operate under the catenary via > > Amtrak between Harrisburg and Philadelphia, and it did so many times. > > > > As far as looking back to PRR days is concerned, leased Budd Co. dome > > cars did operate regularly in the consist of the Chicago-Miami South > > Wind. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > Dan Cupper > > > > Burnley, Charles wrote: > > > > > > Andy & List, > > > Just a quick comment on the Photo & question by Jim Clay of the domed > > > observation at Harrisburg. No domed cars of any type were allowed on the > > > Penny > > > in electrified territory on account of close approximity to the energized > > > catenary. > > > I don't know about the rest of the railroad, but I have never seen a photo > > > of a > > > domed car in a PRR consist. They may have been banned from interchange > > > service because > > > you would never know where one might show up and inadvertantly be assigned > > > to a train > > > whose destination would take it through an electrified area. > > > If anyone knows more on this subject, please elaborate to the list. > > > Thanks > > > C. Burnley Jr. > > > PRRT&HS #271 > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Chasing "The Northern Express" Date: Mon, 20 Aug 101 18:14:25 -0400 (EDT) Bill Morlitz scribit: > I was fortunate enough to have ridden the Conrail OCS in June of 1998. > I was in the former ATSF Dome car and when riding under the catenary at > 30th Street, we had to leave the upper level and go to the lower level > or another car. Safety issues were the reasons given. Gents, this appears to me to be "safety" taken to monumentally silly proportions. I rode the _Capitol Limited_ a number of years ago to a conference in Washington D.C. This was fairly soon after it was converted to Superliner equipment. Eastbound into D.C., we rode up the B&O wye, then backed into Union Station. Of course, the trackage is electrified. The conductor was standing at the tail end of the last car, the sleeper car of which I was an occupant. He had the back door open and was holding the brake hose. There was a very substantial drizzly rain that day as we watched the catenary go by not very far at all overhead. If they are so concerned about the safety of passengers in the lounge car, why are they not concerned about a damp, grounded conductor (pun apt, in this case) inside an open door? -- Mark D. Bej ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 18:59:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Chasing "The Northern Express" From: Jerry Britton I've now posted my pics of The Northern Express... http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/northernexpress2001/ Again, anyone with pics to share can e-mail them to me for posting. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chuck Friedlein" Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:24:49 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR B28s (USRA 0-6-0) I've got a question about the cab numbers of these little beasts. How long would the entire 4-digit number be--say, 7300--as painted in accordance with specs. in effect about 1946-50 or so using the wider spacing? I've been tyring to scale them out from photos, but something doesn't seem to add up. Under the presumption that the Pennsy did not cut the length of the cabs down, since the USRA cab was 66" front-to-back edge and using the known 6" numeral height, the 4-digit number scales out to be about 36" overall. Using strictly the 6" numeral height, except for the '1' they scale out to about 4" wide, with the same 4" spacing between each numeral. Four numerals plus the three spaces between them only add up to 28" using a 4" wide numeral. Now, I know that printed photos are not the best thing to get accurate measurements from because of the fuzziness caused by the printing dots, but I seriously doubt that I'm that blind as to make an error of 8" in oveall length. BTW, I'm using digital calipers (new battery) and up to x10 magnification to measure these. Can anybody give me the actual measurements of a typical 4-digit long number (and of the cab if it was shortened)? TIA, Chuck Friedlein "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chuck Friedlein" Subject: [PRR] PRR B28s (USRA 0-6-0) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 20:24:49 -0400 I've got a question about the cab numbers of these little beasts. How long would the entire 4-digit number be--say, 7300--as painted in accordance with specs. in effect about 1946-50 or so using the wider spacing? I've been tyring to scale them out from photos, but something doesn't seem to add up. Under the presumption that the Pennsy did not cut the length of the cabs down, since the USRA cab was 66" front-to-back edge and using the known 6" numeral height, the 4-digit number scales out to be about 36" overall. Using strictly the 6" numeral height, except for the '1' they scale out to about 4" wide, with the same 4" spacing between each numeral. Four numerals plus the three spaces between them only add up to 28" using a 4" wide numeral. Now, I know that printed photos are not the best thing to get accurate measurements from because of the fuzziness caused by the printing dots, but I seriously doubt that I'm that blind as to make an error of 8" in oveall length. BTW, I'm using digital calipers (new battery) and up to x10 magnification to measure these. Can anybody give me the actual measurements of a typical 4-digit long number (and of the cab if it was shortened)? TIA, Chuck Friedlein ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark T. Evans" Subject: Re: [PRR] High Quality N8 Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 18:15:54 -0700 Dear Listers, In discussing the possibility of a high-quality N8, Rick Tipton said: [snip] > I also model the late 60's and would love to have the aluminum window refits. > My point of reference would be a plastic model that looks as good as my > Alpha Models cabins, otherwise my contribution to the volume of sales would > be small. and also [more snippage] > If total cost was under $40, it would still probably be > worthwhile for me to replace my fleet of 6 Alpha Models and Alco Models N8's, > and sell the brass off to the collectors. The above comments point out the obvious fact: Specialized plastic models of a particular railroad's cabin/caboose/waycar actually compete in the marketplace with brass models. Naturally, sales volumes will likely be much lower than, say, a PRR H21. After all, how many cabins does one need? The solution: High quality, highly detailed plastic cabin/caboose/waycar models at a price appropriate for their relatively low projected sales volume. The modeler gets what he wants (i.e., a specifically detailed model as good or better than brass) at a price one fourth or one fifth of brass. Current examples of this philosophy: The new Walthers Budd passenger cars and the latest Atlas diesels. I say bring on a high-quality N8. With the features mentioned in my earlier post. Mark T. Evans Anaheim, CA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 22:13:49 EDT From: RTSILLER@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Digital Cameras When I was searching for a digital camera, the best site I found for informaiton was 'www.dpreview.com' It has in-depth reviews, side-by-side feature/price comparisons and owner opinions. It was very helpful in determining the camera I wanted. Both MySimon and ComputerShopper sites were helpful in finding the best pricing and package deals. Don't forget to include the cost of batteries, optional chargers and storage media in your overall cost, which may add $100 or more. Another important factor is the photo editing software. Each package offers different features to manipulate your photos once you get them out of the camera. I ended up with a Canon G1. The rechargable li-ion batteries and micro-drive (340MB or 1GB) support are great. It is so nice being able to take a lot of high resolution pictures and still have several hundred shots left. Buying a digital camera is as bad as buying a new computer. New features and functions come out on a weekly basis and as soon as you buy a camera, it's outdated. Good luck in making a decision. Rick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 01:55:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Southwind GLc and the N8 Bruce, Mark, Rick, Bill, Ed and all... My first reaction to the original post was to Jerry privately. But I want to respond openly about my feelings about the possibly of Bowser doing the N-8. I have my reservations about Bowser doing the N-8 at a $25.00 price point unless, like most have mentioned, they provide us with something along the lines of the level of detail of the KADEE PS-1 boxcar or at least what we are seeing come out of Intermountain prebuilt. That would warrant the price. Bowser says they never made money on the N-5 caboose? I say YEA RIGHT! Why would they tool it in N-Scale if the HO Scale didn't make Lee a pile of cash? He is not likely to risk that kind of money on a caboose in N-Scale if he didn't do as good as I heard he did from a very reliable source. Nonetheless if ACCURAIL can produce a kit as nicely detailed as the USRA Double Sheathed 40-foot box car and price it under $15.00 then I say Bowser wake up! Besides I heard that Lee already started the tooling on it last year but these things take time. Perhaps Lee is preparing us for sticker shock... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 03:05:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] Westside D-16sb... Rob list, You'll want to check out James Ferguson's article in the March 1987 Model Railroader. His particular Westside D16sb was a poor runner until he repowered it. He ended up regearing the engine and converting it to tender drive. He ended up stuffing the rest of the boiler with lead to get enough weight on the rails, and ended up with an engine he was pleased with. He reported that most of the Westside D16sb engines that he encountered were mechanically challenged. If you're mechanically inclined (ie have done a couple of gearbox conversions), the engine should be a good value. Railworks also imported a D16sb; it sells in the 500 dollar range (outside my budget right now) on the used market. Please bear in mind I don't (yet) have direct experience with Westside brass (I would love to add a K3s to my steam fleet, and the D16sb is tempting); I only have 1.5 brass steamers (a Lambert H6sb that is becoming H6sb 2846) and an Alco Models E5s that is being convinced to accept a Bowser E6s chassis whether it wants to or not). Doug --- Rob Schoenberg wrote: > Hi all, > > Just wanted an assessment of Westside/Samhongsa's > D-16sb in HO... > Are they pretty accurate? Good runners? Is $190 > for an unpainted > one a decent price? > > Thanks! > > Rob > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the > message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: [PRR] the N8 & Bowser Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 06:44:03 -0500 Hi List, At the risk of saying "ME TOO!!" I have to agree with Greg Martin on two points. First, bowser would not do a HO "losser" in N. And second, $25.00 should get you close to the quality of a Kadee PS-1. My personal view on Bowser in general is they bring out models we want but have not pushed the envelope on detail that others have over the last few years. Peter Reinhold Universal Die & Stampings 735 15th Street Prairie Du Sac, WI. 53578 PH. 608-643-2477 Fax 608-643-2024 preinhol@unidie.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Laird" Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Digital Cameras Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:10:50 -0500 I also have an older Sony which I have found to be quite good at various ranges from close up for models to more distant railfan shots. The one feature that I really love is that it takes standard 3 1/2" diskettes. So, no special disk cartridges or messy cables to transfer from camera to computer, just pop out the diskette and insert in drive A. Also means a cheap almost unlimited supply of photo media available anywhere diskettes are sold. Bill Laird Canyon Lake, Texas ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 3:10 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] TANGENT - Digital Cameras > In a message dated 8/20/01 12:47:50 PM Central Daylight Time, > jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > > << I want 3+ megapixel and I'm trying to keep the cost below $700. I want go > into all of my specs desired, but does anyone have experience with the > Olympus C-3040 Zoom? That's the current model I am looking at. Cost new (and > not via eBay) is currently $699. > >> > I have an older Sony Digital. And ya know it doesn't do 1/2 bad with HO Scale > Models either! > > Loren Johnson > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 10:26:12 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Digital Cameras -- End Thread From: Jerry Britton Thanks for all the great feedback on digital camera... I believe I have made my final selection, the Olympus C-3040. I even located somebody that has one and was able to play with it for awhile. Now to get one in so I am ready for RailFest and Bennett's E-8's on The Mountain!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "andrew harmantas" Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Domes Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 12:34:15 -0400 There is one more bit of info that did exist, and that was the practice of the B&O not to allow passengers to sit in the domes east of Silver Spring, MD, the last stop before the B&O ran beneath PRR catenary into the Washington, D.C./Union Station area. I rode B&O and the Pennsy trains often in the 50's, and was told by many a B&O trainman at Silver Spring, after asking passengers to leave the dome on eastbounds, it was because of concerns for the overhead wires. This notice was also printed in all of B&O's timetables. Perhaps the Pennsy followed that practice until much later. We avoid absolutes, but I think it's safe to say by the time Pennsy ran domes, there was no more Pennsy. Andrew Harmantas, SPF down near C&O Milepost FM Zero. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] Bennett's Trainphones - was Chasing "The Northern Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 12:27:46 -0500 Everyone, I'm really enjoying the dome car discussion, but what I meant to ask in my poorly worded message was has anyone taken any photos of the trainphone antenna at the rear of the EP-22s? I would like to see how this is routed at the rear. Thanks, Andy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 13:39:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bennett's Trainphones - was Chasing "The From: Jerry Britton On 8/21/01 1:27 PM, Andy Cich (ajc5150@home.com) wrote: > I'm really enjoying the dome car discussion, but what I meant to ask in my > poorly worded message was has anyone taken any photos of the trainphone > antenna at the rear of the EP-22s? I would like to see how this is routed > at the rear. > I'm confident that upon his return from the excursion that Bennett would be more than happy to either supply a photo or allow someone to photograph it...and supply a reference to the source of the design. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 13:45:15 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bennett's Trainphones - was Chasing "The From: Jerry Britton On 8/21/01 1:39 PM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > On 8/21/01 1:27 PM, Andy Cich (ajc5150@home.com) wrote: > >> I'm really enjoying the dome car discussion, but what I meant to ask in my >> poorly worded message was has anyone taken any photos of the trainphone >> antenna at the rear of the EP-22s? I would like to see how this is routed >> at the rear. >> > I'm confident that upon his return from the excursion that Bennett would be > more than happy to either supply a photo or allow someone to photograph > it...and supply a reference to the source of the design. Actually, such photos already exist!!! http://www.prrths.com/Phila_PRR5711_06_15_01.htm ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 15:51:47 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] Bennett's Trainphones - was Chasing Jerry Britton wrote: > > On 8/21/01 1:39 PM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > > > On 8/21/01 1:27 PM, Andy Cich (ajc5150@home.com) wrote: > > > >> I'm really enjoying the dome car discussion, but what I meant to ask in my > >> poorly worded message was has anyone taken any photos of the trainphone > >> antenna at the rear of the EP-22s? I would like to see how this is routed > >> at the rear. > >> > > I'm confident that upon his return from the excursion that Bennett would be > > more than happy to either supply a photo or allow someone to photograph > > it...and supply a reference to the source of the design. > > Actually, such photos already exist!!! > > http://www.prrths.com/Phila_PRR5711_06_15_01.htm Jerry, You beat me to the punch. There are also additional pictures of the #5809a being outfitted with the trainphone induction gear at both and . Nothing beats having someone archive restorations and Steve did a fantastic job on JTC's efforts. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 16:06:50 EDT From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Bennett's Trainphones - was Chasing "The Guys, Jerry Writes: >>Actually, such photos already exist!!! http://www.prrths.com/Phila_PRR5711_06_15_01.htm << MY question is was the antenna mast system different on the EP-22 than the EF/EH-15 & EF-15A's ? If not then these guys must have made a mistake in there Prototype Modeling... The antenna mast come done the engineers end and stops, enter the body, and then returns out of the end just below the point of entry and continues down the end along the door then makes a right hand turn and then drops below the end and in a series of four (4) insulator blocks, continues forward as flexible conduit and heads into the truck so it can ground to the truck then to the journal cover to make contact with the rail so the signal can be tranmitted or receive via the axle. The Antenna mast on the fireman's side goes down the rear of the end and enters the rear of the unit about equal to the door height. These photos exist in a handy book next to my computer and in my data base. I will do a set of drawings to add to my web page for all to view. When I get a chance. I will be doing an article b! ase on my F units very shortly b ased on those locked in a drawer at the Atoona Museum so you all can have the insight on how I did the models for Athearn and then some. Any Questions email me off line. I will also be posting my parts list with Caboose Hobbies in Denver at their request. Just let me get ahead of the curve a bit... Thanks Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 17:34:11 EDT From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Sending mail from AOL Just a reminder to AOL board people who want to comment that it is very easy to get around the mime problems. Just click on the internet button and type in aol.com in the window. Then resign in with your password and screen name and you can send messages to this board. that is how I am doing it now. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 17:37:16 EDT From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Domes and catenary If you want a thrill you should come out here to Chicago and ride the old IC double decker cummuter(sp) cars. In many places the faively pantograph is compressed to about 4" above the car roof. There is a lowered offset end on each car for the pantograph mounting. If you wish you can sit about 18" from it on the inside. Makes me nervous every time just thinking about it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:17:52 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] help needed in the Altoona area Hi All, I am hoping that someone in the Altoona area could help me find an alleged existing G-26 gondola somewhere in the yard. If you are familiar with the different sections of the yard, perhaps this will make sense to you. This is all the information I have. The supposed G26 gondola is located in the CP Rose section of the yard. Apparently, it is parked on an industrial siding(s) along with other cars from the 40s and 50s, i.e. round roof boxcar. The information from this car is urgently needed for a brass project. If you search for it and hopefully find it, some sort of reimbursement could be given. I have MANY PRR Builders photos that could be copied and help make your search worthwhile. Please reply to billlane@snip.net Thank you Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/M8mxkD/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] search needed in the Altoona area Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 19:43:11 -0400 Hi All, I am hoping that someone in the Altoona area or is going to visit the Altoona area soon could help me find an alleged existing G-26 gondola somewhere in the yard. If you are familiar with the different sections of the yard, perhaps this will make sense to you. This is all the information I have. The supposed G26 gondola is located in the CP Rose section of the yard. Apparently, it is parked on an industrial siding(s) along with other cars from the 40s and 50s, i.e. round roof boxcar. The information from this car is urgently needed for a brass project. If you search for it and hopefully find it, some sort of reimbursement could be given. I have MANY PRR Builders photos that could be copied and help make your search worthwhile. Please reply to billlane@snip.net Thank you Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Domes and catenary Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 20:31:04 -0400 Of course, the old IC is 1500 VDC, while the PRR was 11000VAC - the spark could jump 7 times further! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 5:37 PM Subject: [PRR] Domes and catenary > If you want a thrill you should come out here to Chicago and ride the old IC double decker cummuter(sp) cars. In many places the faively pantograph is compressed to about 4" above the car roof. There is a lowered offset end on each car for the pantograph mounting. If you wish you can sit about 18" from it on the inside. Makes me nervous every time just thinking about it. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 23:47:10 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] Domes and catenary Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > Of course, the old IC is 1500 VDC, while the PRR was 11000VAC - the spark > could jump 7 times further! Spark over for 11kvac is on the order of 0.5". (Best Dome Ride: Original UA turbotrain under NYN&HRR wires.) best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "KEN AHOBO" Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 05:54:19 Subject: [PRR] I am looking for info on the Pennsy B8a. Driver Dia.? also would like a picture of the rear of the loco, and any other info that would be helpfull in the building of a model of this loco. Thanks Ken _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:00:13 -0400 South Central Pa Listers, This weekend I am going to Gettysburg (The Civil War is a hobby) and I saw that the group that puts on the Timonium all scale show is having an all scale show at the Eisenhower Hotel. Is it worth going to? Thanks Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 14:56:15 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Bennett's Trainphones - was Chasing somewhere on the 5809 site, there are very detailed pictures. for the purists, the antenna's are 1" too short for safety clearance reasons, and the last segment from the bottom of the car boady to the rail receiver has been purposely omitted. Bennett Jerry Britton wrote: > > On 8/21/01 1:39 PM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > > > On 8/21/01 1:27 PM, Andy Cich (ajc5150@home.com) wrote: > > > >> I'm really enjoying the dome car discussion, but what I meant to ask in my > >> poorly worded message was has anyone taken any photos of the trainphone > >> antenna at the rear of the EP-22s? I would like to see how this is routed > >> at the rear. > >> > > I'm confident that upon his return from the excursion that Bennett would be > > more than happy to either supply a photo or allow someone to photograph > > it...and supply a reference to the source of the design. > > Actually, such photos already exist!!! > > http://www.prrths.com/Phila_PRR5711_06_15_01.htm > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 18:43:42 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: [PRR] JTC/Northern Express pictures I have posted the pictures of the Northern Express as it passed Wynnewood Station at 4:21 PM on Saturday, 8/18/01 led by EP22 #5711a and # 5809a. With gratitude to the Levin family for their diligent restorations, you can view/download them at . Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 19:22:06 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Chasing "The Northern Express" CARS: From the front end out of HBG! Caritas, owned by High Iron Travel, MSP, MN Pine Tree State owned by Charlotte area NRHS Cimmeron Eiver owned by Meteor Rail, Saint Louis Silver Quail, owned by company in St. Louis Royal Street, owned by same party in St. Louis Silver Solarium, owned by Cedar Rails, Nashua IA Northern Dreams, owned by David Hoffman, Black River Falls WI Palmetto State chartered by DC NRHS to replace Dover Harbor (shopped) Powhattan Arrow owned by Wautaga NRHS, operated by Harrisburg NRHS PENNSYLVANIA (PRR 120), on loan from GOD! I am glad you all enjoyed the show. I wish I could have been at Narberth to see it roar around the curve. Bennett Andy Cich wrote: > > Jerry, > > Thanks for posting the photos. I look forward to yours. > > Did anybody take photos of the trainphone routing at the rear of the unit? > Inquiring modelers want to know. > > Thanks, > > Andy > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry > Britton > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 8:37 AM > To: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: [PRR] Chasing "The Northern Express" > > I've created a special page for info and pictures about The Northern Express > excursion... > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/northernexpress2001/ > > Can anyone fill in the car names and owner of the rest of the train? > > I've posted the first batch of pics, from Jim Clay. My pics should be posted > this evening. Geez, gotta get a digital camera!!! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 21:51:12 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] N5a Question Thanks, Jerry, Steve, and Bruce. Looks like I'm in for another fun cabin project ... is it too late to change to CONRAIL in the FRED era? Just kidding, I think. Vagel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 22:09:52 EDT Subject: [PRR] "The Northern Express" In a message dated 8/22/01 7:28:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net writes: << Silver Quail, owned by company in St. Louis Ex CB&Q # 451 Silver Solarium, owned by Cedar Rails, Nashua IA >> Ex CB&Q # 377 Someone inquired about ex California Zephyr cars in the train: these two would be them: "Silver Rapids," the Pennsy's contribution to the train, still exists in charter service, as of the last I heard. For further info of the California Zephyr "then and now:" http://calzephyr.railfan.net Dick Ross, Cleveland. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 01:55:01 EDT From: STEVEGG1@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Parkesburg/ Paoli/ Atglen track Greetings All, Several questions: I recently visited Parkesburg, PA and noticed there are 2 sets of catenary and a none electrified line in the middle. Can someone explain this track and is middle track ex PRR? Paoli station, the catenary didn't look PRR. Was it changed at one point? Did PRR have yard at Atglen? Exactly where did the A&S terminate on the west end? Enola yard? Thanks for your help! Steve Panopoulos ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 09:53:39 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] N5a Question Well, after looking at the photo of N5a 477267 in PPIII, p. 416, I'd have to say the drawing in Caboose Data Book No. 2, which shows collision posts (I incorrectly called them "crash bars" earlier) is not reflective of the class as orginially built. And they didn't appear to have the extended roof ends or end sills that are prominent on cabins _with_ collision posts. Vagel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 02:33:07 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Lost locomotive will it be found? From: "M. E Allen" Just to see what would happen I ran the number on TIS both as NS and as PRR and could find no record going back 180 days. Mike Allen On Fri, 17 Aug 2001 10:58:34 EDT SUVCWORR@aol.com writes: > While a little off topic, I thought someone might be able to help > poor NS find their lost locomotive. > > Names removed to protect the innocent.... > > ---------- > > Where oh where can this engine be? Hello everyone, I was asked by > NS > > officials today to help track down a lost locomotive. I guess > they figured > > me being a railfan and knowing others we could help out. The unit > is 3618 > > a GE 36-7. It was last reported past the Sewickley scanner on > July 29th > > dead in consist, and going to Conway for 90 day maintence. This > is the > > last record of this unit. Please pass this on to anyone you know > and > > please email me if you see this unit in your jaunts. The folks at > NS and > > Conway Diesel sure would appreciate it. > > Thanks to all and Take Care. > > Rich Orr > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:59:13 EDT From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Phoenix Steel Co. Did the PRR serve the Phoenix Steel plant in Claymont Delaware? What were the names of this company prior to it being called Phoenix Steel? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paul Stumpff Subject: [PRR] RE: Domes Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:48:57 -0400 Listers: Also, remember that B&O domes were considerably shorter than domes on western routes. Paul Stumpff There is one more bit of info that did exist, and that was the practice of the B&O not to allow passengers to sit in the domes east of Silver Spring, MD, the last stop before the B&O ran beneath PRR catenary into the Washington, D.C./Union Station area. I rode B&O and the Pennsy trains often in the 50's, and was told by many a B&O trainman at Silver Spring, after asking passengers to leave the dome on eastbounds, it was because of concerns for the overhead wires. This notice was also printed in all of B&O's timetables. .... Andrew Harmantas, SPF down near C&O Milepost FM Zero. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 14:51:29 -0400 From: Steven Hanlon Subject: [PRR] prr tender plates i'm looking for the data that would have been on a PRR G-5s. anyone have a resource with this info? -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 14:51:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] prr tender plates Steve, This info would have been found on a Tender Plate of a G5s. The Plate was rectangular in hape. The top left corner would be the Tender Number. Top right hand corner would have the Tender Class which would be 70-P-82A for a G5s. In the lower Left hand corner would be the words ENGINE NO. The lower right hand corner would be a a flat surface for the stenciling of the Loco No. ie 5725 for example. There is also a small Tender Frame badge. The info on this would include the Tender No. and Class.......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 16:35:24 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Pennsy B-8a From: John Sheets Ken There are three photo views of #2788 B-8a saddle tanker on ppg 23 of Pennsy Power. And a side view of B-8a #436 on ppg 22 of Pennsy Power II Not sure about driver size but they look similar to B-6 with 56" drivers, although the B-8 were a bit lighter John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] "Tell-Tales" (again) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 17:57:19 -0400 Lists: I wish to add "tell-tales" in advance of tunnel entrances on my N scale PRR based model railroad. I cannot find ANY photographs of such warning devices when they were in use on the PRR. From photos taken after roof running boards were outlawed (which was the reason for tell-tales), I gather that PRR suspended the warning device from wires rather than a bracket (the poles are still there in the photos), but have no idea how the wire was suspended. A single wire would not suffice, as temperature could change height above rail. Can anyone furnish me a photograph or diagram or tell me where I might find one on the internet? I live in a small town on the Florida panhandle so have no access to decent railroad libraries. TIA Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 22:47:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Digital Cameras In a message dated 8/23/01 2:12:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Aeolus3 writes: << You might as well go for the good one my wife bought me one from HSN ($200 -$225) for Christmas - All the "techies" in my family - including 2 with degrees in Computer Science - couldn't get it to work with my Dell Computer at Home. The camera worked ok on its' own - burned batteries like a chain smoker) I've decided to go with my Asahi Pentax a few more years. Anyone with experience with "You've got pictures" out there? >> My Sony works just fine. The Sony I have writes to a floppy disc changing "film" is very simple and fast. Although I do agree...... for shooting railroad I like my Pentax... all 4 of them! >> Guess that that may be part of the problem - the "cheapie" had no "disc" - required direct plug in transfer to the computer or, supposedly, a VCR - never got that to work either. RR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] "Tell-Tales" (again) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 21:56:44 -0500 Hi Gregg--Don't know how extensive your library is , but two different books show the tell-tales on the west side of the tunnels at Gallitzin. "Pennsylvania Standard Railroad of the World" by Plant and Yanosey on p. 10 and "Heart of the Pennsylvania Railroad" published by Kalmbach p. 105. These are over single track, each supported by a single pole with a cantilevered arm over the track. The arm holds one end of a dozen or so cords which hang down to the warning height. If you can't get your hands on either book, I can provide more detail off list. And which "small town on the Florida panhandle"? We might even be able to start our own "chapter"! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 04:36:26 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] "Tell-Tales" (again) --- Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > Lists: > > I wish to add "tell-tales" in advance of tunnel > entrances on my N scale PRR > based model railroad. ... I gather that > PRR suspended the warning device from wires rather > than a bracket (the > poles are still there in the photos), but have no > idea how the wire was > suspended. A single wire would not suffice, as > temperature could change > height above rail. Would the change be significant? After all, the purpose was to slap a guy standing on top of a car so he would know to drop flat. I doubt that there was a need to align the ends of the "whips" with the lower edge of the obstruction to some close tolerance. ("OK Ernie. Lower it another half inch. My head just brushed the bridge that time.") > > Can anyone furnish me a photograph or diagram or > tell me where I might find > one on the internet? Triumph I has a photo of the old tunnel at Radebaugh in which the support cable is moored to the sides of the cut leading to the tunnel. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:00:21 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Parkesburg/ Paoli/ Atglen track Steve asks: >Several questions: I recently visited Parkesburg, PA and noticed there are >2 sets of catenary and a none electrified line in the middle. Can someone >explain this track and is middle track ex PRR? This middle track is the A&S, used to be 2 tracks, and used to be electrified. The in service track only extends a short way down the A&S which has been torn up from Parkesburg to CP Port (Port interlocking) southeast of Washington Township. Conrail, and now NS refer to the remaining track (CP Port to Wago) as part of the "Port Road", which was the name of the C&PD branch (Port Deposit to Columbia). There are ruminations about NS reactivating the A&S. >Paoli station, the catenary didn't look PRR. Was it changed at one point? Yes...the (electric) physical plant is what, 63 years old? and requires constant maintenance. When sections are damaged, as in a pan snagging, or simply worn out, they are replaced with newer catenary. >Did PRR have yard at Atglen? No, there was a yard at Thorndale, which included a coal wharf similar to one at Denholm, and which was the base for both eastward and westward helper operations. >Exactly where did the A&S terminate on the west end? Enola yard? Technically (based on track charts c1945) I believe that the branch ended at Wago Jct. The track from there to Enola was considered part of the Northern Central Rwy. Jerry, Mark, et al, correct me if I'm wrong here! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:23:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Parkesburg/ Paoli/ Atglen track From: Jerry Britton On 8/24/01 10:00 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >> Exactly where did the A&S terminate on the west end? Enola yard? > Technically (based on track charts c1945) I believe that the branch ended > at Wago Jct. The track from there to Enola was considered part of the > Northern Central Rwy. Jerry, Mark, et al, correct me if I'm wrong here! > Wrong here!!! The Northern Central Railway was built circa 1850 and extended to Bridgeport, later renamed Lemoyne. There they arranged trackage rights from the Cumberland Valley Railway to use their bridge into Harrisburg for passenger service. Freight-wise, the Northern Central eventually continued building northward, through Enola, Marysville, and then crossed the Susquehanna to Dauphin, where it continued north, eventually to Sodus Point. The Northern Central had a yard at Marysville. The PRR and the Northern Central originally crossed AT GRADE at Marysville. At the turn of the century, these railroads worked cooperatively on several projects. One of these was the new Rockville Bridge, which both railroads shared, eliminating the crossing at grade at Marysville. (The piers of the NC bridge remain, and one now boasts a 20' representation of the "Statue of Liberty".) A second project, built on NC land, was the Enola Yards. This facilitated a third project, which was the PRR's own, the Atglen & Susquehanna Branch ("Low Grade"). The Northern Central was dual track from Enola south. At what would become known as Wago Junction, the line turn inland from the river, to York, and on to Baltimore. The A&S was built as a dual track line, parallel to the NC. Although it appeared as a four-track main, it was really two dual-track lines alongside of each other, from Enola to Wago. At Wago, the A&S continued south along the river until it crossed to the east just above Columbia. The only interlocking between the A&S and the NC from Enola to Wago was at Cly, about two miles north/west of Wago. The previously mentioned Cumberland Valley Railway became the PRR's CV Branch, and the NC was leased by the PRR in the 1910's and became the NC Branch. As far as I know, the term "Port Road", referencing the A&S out of Enola, was a Conrail term...or perhaps a Penn Central term. I have never seen reference to it in PRR materials. Similarly, the line from Enola to Wago Junction has often been referred to as the "York Haven Line". Again, no PRR references. Today there are only two tracks from Enola to Wago. Cly tower and interlocking is totally gone. The Northern Central from Wago to York is now single-track, and there is a connection between Wago and York Haven, about a mile south of where the NC and A&S previously interlocked at Cly. As a reference, this is in the area of the Brunner Island coal-fired power plant owned by PP&L. I live about five minutes from this area. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Parkesburg/ Paoli/ Atglen track Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:53:14 -0400 Jerry: When I worked for the PRR in Baltimore in 1965-1966 the line up the Susquehanna between Havre de Grace and Columbia was always referred to as "The Port Road". by the Superintendent's office. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." ; Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 10:23 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Parkesburg/ Paoli/ Atglen track > On 8/24/01 10:00 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) > wrote: > > >> Exactly where did the A&S terminate on the west end? Enola yard? > > Technically (based on track charts c1945) I believe that the branch ended > > at Wago Jct. The track from there to Enola was considered part of the > > Northern Central Rwy. Jerry, Mark, et al, correct me if I'm wrong here! > > > Wrong here!!! > > The Northern Central Railway was built circa 1850 and extended to > Bridgeport, later renamed Lemoyne. There they arranged trackage rights from > the Cumberland Valley Railway to use their bridge into Harrisburg for > passenger service. > > Freight-wise, the Northern Central eventually continued building northward, > through Enola, Marysville, and then crossed the Susquehanna to Dauphin, > where it continued north, eventually to Sodus Point. The Northern Central > had a yard at Marysville. > > The PRR and the Northern Central originally crossed AT GRADE at Marysville. > At the turn of the century, these railroads worked cooperatively on several > projects. One of these was the new Rockville Bridge, which both railroads > shared, eliminating the crossing at grade at Marysville. (The piers of the > NC bridge remain, and one now boasts a 20' representation of the "Statue of > Liberty".) > > A second project, built on NC land, was the Enola Yards. This facilitated a > third project, which was the PRR's own, the Atglen & Susquehanna Branch > ("Low Grade"). > > The Northern Central was dual track from Enola south. At what would become > known as Wago Junction, the line turn inland from the river, to York, and on > to Baltimore. > > The A&S was built as a dual track line, parallel to the NC. Although it > appeared as a four-track main, it was really two dual-track lines alongside > of each other, from Enola to Wago. At Wago, the A&S continued south along > the river until it crossed to the east just above Columbia. > > The only interlocking between the A&S and the NC from Enola to Wago was at > Cly, about two miles north/west of Wago. > > The previously mentioned Cumberland Valley Railway became the PRR's CV > Branch, and the NC was leased by the PRR in the 1910's and became the NC > Branch. > > As far as I know, the term "Port Road", referencing the A&S out of Enola, > was a Conrail term...or perhaps a Penn Central term. I have never seen > reference to it in PRR materials. > > Similarly, the line from Enola to Wago Junction has often been referred to > as the "York Haven Line". Again, no PRR references. > > Today there are only two tracks from Enola to Wago. Cly tower and > interlocking is totally gone. The Northern Central from Wago to York is now > single-track, and there is a connection between Wago and York Haven, about a > mile south of where the NC and A&S previously interlocked at Cly. As a > reference, this is in the area of the Brunner Island coal-fired power plant > owned by PP&L. I live about five minutes from this area. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:05:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Parkesburg/ Paoli/ Atglen track From: Jerry Britton On 8/24/01 10:50 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > Thanks! If I had been sure of what I was saying, I wouldn't have invited > the comments ...I just could not find a reference here at work, other > than the track chart...I did have the gnawing feeling the the A&S and NC > were even at differing elevations most of the time, right? > Not really. The NC rises quite a bit coming out of York and reaches a summit just railroad-south of Mt. Wolf. It then descends towards the river. Actually, this was once a helper district, with helpers working out of Cly, where there was a wye. At Wago, the NC and A&S meet at the same grade. They remain at this grade as they traverse west through York Haven, Cly (interlocking), Goldsboro, and New Cumberland. Somewhere in New Cumberland, about two miles south of present day I-83, the Northern Central ascends about 20 feet. This allows the NC to meet the higher CV at grade and turn passenger trains onto its bridge east into Harrisburg. (The A&S had no passenger trains so this was not needed.) The NC also continued railroad-west and allowed eastbound CV trains to curve onto the westbound NC to get to Enola yard. The CV and NC met at grade at LEMO, formerly J tower, which has been moved and restored at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania / Strassburg Railroad. Once past LEMO, the NC line descended at the same time the A&S ascended. They came alongside at Stella Street just shy of Enola. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:08:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Parkesburg/ Paoli/ Atglen track From: Jerry Britton On 8/24/01 10:53 AM, Gregg Mahlkov (mahlkov@gtcom.net) wrote: > When I worked for the PRR in Baltimore in 1965-1966 the line up the > Susquehanna between Havre de Grace and Columbia was always referred to as > "The Port Road". I don't doubt that...that was technically the Columbia & Port Deposit Branch. At Columbia, north/west bound freights entered the A&S which elbowed at Columbia. The A&S went east to Parksburg and north/west to Enola. It is the stretch of the A&S between Columbia and Enola that I am saying the PRR did not refer to as "The Port Road", as far as I know. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson PRR/ Penn Central Art) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:36:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Parkesburg/A&S Branch. Hello List, One quick question: The A&S Branch "ends" at Wago Jct going railroad west. The line continues to Enola,right? Is the correct name for the line the "York Haven" or "Northern Central"? I have some PRR dispatch sheets from the 1950s clearly showing the A&S Branch with over 100 trains in 24 hrs. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Parkesburg/ Paoli/ Atglen track Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:43:27 -0400 Jerry: "The Port Road" was used to refer to movement between Enola and Bay View as in "Train so-and-so usually operates via the Port Road" as opposed to "TrucTrains usually operate via the NC". I agree that technically "The Port Road" was the abbreviated term for the Columbia and Port Deposit, which was legally a PRR leased line. Grtegg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Gregg Mahlkov" ; "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." ; Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Parkesburg/ Paoli/ Atglen track > On 8/24/01 10:53 AM, Gregg Mahlkov (mahlkov@gtcom.net) wrote: > > > When I worked for the PRR in Baltimore in 1965-1966 the line up the > > Susquehanna between Havre de Grace and Columbia was always referred to as > > "The Port Road". > > I don't doubt that...that was technically the Columbia & Port Deposit > Branch. > > At Columbia, north/west bound freights entered the A&S which elbowed at > Columbia. The A&S went east to Parksburg and north/west to Enola. > > It is the stretch of the A&S between Columbia and Enola that I am saying the > PRR did not refer to as "The Port Road", as far as I know. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:52:05 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Parkesburg/A&S Branch. From: Jerry Britton On 8/24/01 11:36 AM, Dave Hopson PRR/ Penn Central Art (zootowerprr@webtv.net) wrote: > The A&S Branch "ends" at Wago Jct going railroad west. The line > continues to Enola,right? > Is the correct name for the line the "York Haven" or "Northern Central"? As previously stated, A&S did not end at Wago. At Wago it came parallel to the Northern Central Branch and BOTH continued to Enola...four tracks wide! The term "York Haven Line", as far as I can determine, was a Penn Central or Conrail nickname for the stretch between Enola and Wago. I find no references during PRR time for this name. Employee timetables show the Northern Central Branch as well as the Atglen & Susquehanna Branch. > I have some PRR dispatch sheets from the 1950s clearly showing the > A&S Branch with over 100 trains in 24 hrs. I believe it. Have any sheets from 9/54? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:12:25 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Parkesburg/A&S Branch. Dave sez >Is the correct name for the line the "York Haven" or "Northern Central"? > I have some PRR dispatch sheets from the 1950s clearly showing the >A&S Branch with over 100 trains in 24 hrs. Dave, OOOOOOOH, I want, no NEED to see those dispatch sheets! How early do they go and is there any chance of scanning one or more in? I have been searching for this kind of info from 1944, but it seems almost impossible to come by, so I'll settle for the 50's right now . Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson PRR/ Penn Central Art) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:16:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Parkesburg/A&S Branch Hello Jerry and List, The Dispatch sheet I have is from 1959. Shows all trains between Day tower and Park interlocking. Pure Tonnage! Lots of GG1s ,P5s and even the "Juice Jacks". The sheet also shows passenger trains out of Harrisburg crossing the CV Bridge passing Lemo Tower. I don't know which trains they could be but I think one is the Buffalo Day Express. Here are the train numbers: #548,554,570,571,549,575,and 675 All those trains are pulled by E7s or E8s. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:26:12 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Dispatcher Sheets from A&S From: Jerry Britton On 8/24/01 12:12 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: >> Is the correct name for the line the "York Haven" or "Northern Central"? >> I have some PRR dispatch sheets from the 1950s clearly showing the >> A&S Branch with over 100 trains in 24 hrs. > > OOOOOOOH, I want, no NEED to see those dispatch sheets! How early do they > go and is there any chance of scanning one or more in? I have been > searching for this kind of info from 1944, but it seems almost impossible > to come by, so I'll settle for the 50's right now . > I had already asked if there were any from 9/54. IF Dave would consider the scanning of these dispatcher sheets, one must consider that they are large. Craig Bowman once showed me some sheets from HARRIS, and they were desktop size!!! Don't know what everyone else has for equipment, but my scanner can do up to 12" x 18", which is larger than most. I'd be willing to do a few now, more later. I have a major scan job going on that will keep me busy through May that needs to take precendence. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:40:08 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Parkesburg/A&S Branch. [snip] >A&S did not end at Wago. At Wago it came parallel to >the Northern Central Branch and BOTH continued to Enola...four tracks wide! > Unless I missed something, the A&S were the two tracks closest to the river and the NC the two tracks closest to Goldsboro, correct Jerry? Out of curiosity, I know there are only two tracks currently remaining, which ones are they, the A&S I suspect? Anyone know what year the other tracks were removed? Thanks, Jeff Warner ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 15:08:26 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Parkesburg/A&S Branch. From: Jerry Britton On 8/24/01 2:40 PM, Jeff Warner (jwarner@ptd.net) wrote: >> A&S did not end at Wago. At Wago it came parallel to >> the Northern Central Branch and BOTH continued to Enola...four tracks wide! >> > Unless I missed something, the A&S were the two tracks closest to the > river and the NC the two tracks closest to Goldsboro, correct Jerry? That's correct. There were some locations where the right-of-way was very tight between the river and the mountains. They had to dig away the mountains and move the NC tracks inland. North of Goldsboro the stage coach line and the NC were side by side. The PRR purchased the rights to the stage coach line and it moved inland, on what is now known as Still House Lane. Where this road met the railroad there was a whiskey distiller until someone lit a match at an inopportune time. ("The History of Newberry Township" has some excellent stories!) In the early 1900's, Goldsboro was a booming lumbering town, with mills on both sides of the track. All gone now. There was an ice house at Cly, and a paper mill at York Haven. Quite a modeling area for these earlier times! > Out of curiosity, I know there are only two tracks currently remaining, > which ones are they, the A&S I suspect? More or less, yes, the A&S tracks remain. However, they eased into the curves better, often crossing from one line to another. In some places, like York Haven, it's obvious that the two NC tracks are just plain missing. All of the cat bridges are still in place, with large "voids" underneath them on the inland side. > Anyone know what year the other > tracks were removed? > No. Someone once told me CLY tower came out in the 1970's. I wasn't a local resident until 1989. However, I do recall the NC tracks in place at LEMO. I remember watching for trains as I passed over on I-83. Dan Cupper may better remember, but I'd have to guess that these tracks survived until at least 1980, if not the mid-1980's. The right-of-way is really starting to grow over, but it's still findable. Cat bridges are still in place. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson PRR/ Penn Central Art) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 16:10:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Parkesburg/A&S Branch This has ALWAYS been my favorite part of the PRR. Nothing like catenary! A&S Branch, Northern Central, Port Road, P&T Branch, Trenton Cutoff......Boxcabs,E44s,GG1s, Juice Jacks. What more could a railfan want. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] Photos of N5c 477823 in PRR paint.... Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 16:16:21 -0400 Hi all, Does anyone know where I can find a photo of N5c #477823 in PRR paint? Thanks! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steven Bundick" Subject: Re: [PRR] Parkesburg/A&S Branch. Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 23:16:58 -0400 List- I've always been interested in this stretch of track myself. I pulled out PRR ETTs for 4/1947 and 10/56, and PC 5/1970 to read up on the lines. I was a little bit surprised, but all 3 timetables referred to the line between Wago Jct. and Day as the York Haven Line. They showed that the A&S also ended at Wago Jct. I was wondering when the tracks were reduced also. The '56 timetable shows only 3 tracks south of Cly. The Northern Central must have been downgraded to single track sometime prior to this. The PC 1970 ETT also lists 3 tracks. One other interesting note is that the speed limit for freights on this section in 1947 was 40 MPH. I know that during Conrail days it was up to 50 MPH. Steve >> The A&S Branch "ends" at Wago Jct going railroad west. The line >> continues to Enola,right? >> Is the correct name for the line the "York Haven" or "Northern Central"? > >As previously stated, A&S did not end at Wago. At Wago it came parallel to >the Northern Central Branch and BOTH continued to Enola...four tracks wide! > >The term "York Haven Line", as far as I can determine, was a Penn Central or >Conrail nickname for the stretch between Enola and Wago. I find no >references during PRR time for this name. Employee timetables show the >Northern Central Branch as well as the Atglen & Susquehanna Branch. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty \(The Cos\)" Subject: RE: [PRR] Phoenix Steel Co. Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 00:26:06 -0400 I checked my CT1000 of May 1, 1945 - no mention of a Phoenix Steel as a station or siding. For the original location in Phoenixville: French Creek Nail Works - 1790 Later called the Phoenix Iron Works before the village changed it's name to Phoenixville Doing business as: Reeves-Whitaker Company (the Reeves also owned the Cumberland Nail Factory @ Bridgeton NJ) 1840 or so Reeves, Buck & Company 1846 - also built a rail mail about this time 1847 saw the opening of a Rail Mill @ Safe Harbor PA The Reeves also helped start the rail mill in Johnstown know as the Cambria Iron Company - you know the Bethlehem Steel Works. Phoenix Iron Company about 1855 Phoenix Column invented 1862 Clarke, Reeves and Company - 1870 - Phoenix Bridge Company - not really part of Phoenix Iron - just looked that way Phoenix Iron and Steel about 1889 It seems that the Bridge Company could use more iron then the iron works could produce - they started to buy iron from the Edge Moor Iron Works of Wilmington Delaware. No mention that this Co. was a part of Phoenix though. Things stayed as the are through the early 1920's USSteel started along with American Bridge plus the formation of Bethlehem - I'd have to check further but I don't see any reference to a Phoenix works in Delaware. The Safe Harbor works went unused after 1880 or so, The Johnstown flood did its thing to the Cambria Iron Co. and the Columbia Nail works just withered away. Phoenix Bridge went up the spout in 1962 and the Steel works has gone through several owners since then too. But since you asked about Claymont Delaware, I guess I didn't really answer your question did I. But I did have fun looking up all the stuff. Cos Cos Communications, Inc. Home Page Rail Road Pages -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of NDBPRR@aol.com Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 10:59 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Phoenix Steel Co. Did the PRR serve the Phoenix Steel plant in Claymont Delaware? What were the names of this company prior to it being called Phoenix Steel? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 07:09:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Parkesburg/A&S Branch. From: Jerry Britton On 8/24/01 11:16 PM, Steven Bundick at (sbundick@ezy.net) wrote: > I've always been interested in this stretch of track myself. I pulled out > PRR ETTs for 4/1947 and 10/56, and PC 5/1970 to read up on the lines. I was > a little bit surprised, but all 3 timetables referred to the line between > Wago Jct. and Day as the York Haven Line. First I've heard that, but obviously it's an official reference. Thanks! > They showed that the A&S also > ended at Wago Jct. I was wondering when the tracks were reduced also. The > '56 timetable shows only 3 tracks south of Cly. The Northern Central must > have been downgraded to single track sometime prior to this. The NC was reduced to single-track circa 1952. > The PC 1970 > ETT also lists 3 tracks. One other interesting note is that the speed limit > for freights on this section in 1947 was 40 MPH. I know that during Conrail > days it was up to 50 MPH. > Maybe they replaced it with heavier rail? Or perhaps with the removal of the third track, leaving two, the curves were realigned and supported greater speeds? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jwgotaskie@aol.com Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 10:01:08 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Phoenix Steel Co. I don't remember the exact date but the Claymont plant wasn't purchased until late in the history of Phoenix Steel. Probably late sixties, maybe even the early seventies. The CT1000 E of 1945 does list a Worth Steel Co. at mp 18.6, perhaps that is the one in question. The Phoenixville plant used open hearth furnaces, while the Claymont plant had electric furnaces. When the environmental laws toughened in the seventies, the open hearths were shut down and the only thing left in operation was the seamless pipe mill at the West end of the complex. Several different owners tried to keep this operation going into the eighties when finally it too close for good. Today the entire complex has been torn down except the old foundry building which is being renovated into a visitors center and farmer's market. The plans for the rest of the property is to become an office / retail center. Phoenix Bridge Company was originally created to provide another buyer for Phoenix Iron. The company revolutionized iron bridge building by first assembling the bridge at the plant to make sure everything fit correctly. Then disassembling it and shipping it to the site like a kit. The downfall of the bridge company began with the introduction of reinforced concrete for bridge construction. Also at this time, the fourth generation of Reeves had inherited the business and they didn't have the same interest as the elders had. Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty \(The Cos\)" Subject: [PRR] Wago, Cly and Lemo Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 14:42:13 -0400 Many years ago, my future wife and I took a trip up the west shore of the Susquehanna. 1984  April 21st to be exact. So while I waited for the family thing to start, I put together this little page. http://www.wsbcos.com/cly/cly.htm Hope it helps. Cos Cos Communications, Inc. Home Page Rail Road Pages ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 15:22:54 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: [PRR] Weaver on TV According to a post on the OGR Trains Forum, PCN (Pennsylvania Cable Network) will have a feature on Weaver Model trains tomorrow (Sunday 8/26) night at 8:00 PM. Even if you're not O Gauge, Weaver is the one remaining USA O Gauge train manufacturer and does mainly PRR. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: zootowerprr@webtv.net (Dave Hopson PRR/ Penn Central Art) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 18:47:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] New PRR Book:Triumph 4 Hello List, Just got back from PRRT&HS Phila Chapter meeting. I saw the pilot book for Triumph 4 and it looks like a winner. Dave Messer said the book should be out Sept 1. This book covers the Middle Division. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 19:28:10 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: [PRR] Re: Weaver on TV prrbill wrote: > > According to a post on the OGR Trains Forum, PCN (Pennsylvania Cable > Network) will have a feature on Weaver Model trains tomorrow (Sunday > 8/26) night at 8:00 PM. Even if you're not O Gauge, Weaver is the one > remaining USA O Gauge train manufacturer and does mainly PRR. > > Bill I stand corrected. Weaver makes more O gauge trains here in the USA than any other manufacturer. Mea Culpa. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 19:40:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Wago, Cly and Lemo From: Jerry Britton On 8/25/01 2:42 PM, Wayne S. Betty (The Cos) at (cos@mycyberlink.net) wrote: > Many years ago, my future wife and I took a trip up the west shore of the > Susquehanna. > 1984  April 21st to be exact. > So while I waited for the family thing to start, I put together this little > page. > http://www.wsbcos.com/cly/cly.htm > Hope it helps. > Excellent! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty \(The Cos\)" Subject: RE: [PRR] Wago, Cly and Lemo Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 00:17:29 -0400 Howdy Vagel: As you know J was the intersection of the Northern Central and the Cumberland Valley. The Northern Central RR (NC) came north out of York and crossed over and out of its valley to meet up with the Susquehanna River. Where the NC reached the river then - is today close to the area known as CP Wago, more on this later. Later when the C&PD (Columbia & Port Deposit) and the A&S (Atglen and Susquehanna) were built - the Bridge at Shocks (various versions for spelling) Mill crossed to meet up with the NC at this same location. I don't think any connection was built here at this time. However, upriver a couple of miles the interlocking Cly was built. Basically, there was a four-track railroad from Wago to just south of J tower - where the NC went upgrade to meet the CV at grade and the Enola branch continued under the RDG and CV on up to Enola. Of course NC trains could and did go straight through at J tower and rejoined the Enola branch but not exactly - now down to a three track railroad between J and east end of Enola. Two for the Enola branch (A&S and C&PD) and one track for the NC. I would suspect that Cly had long gone unused (PC area) except for track maintenance (like MG) and the only straight through (at Lemo) traffic was what was heading down to York and points south. Jump ahead and past the advent of Conrail to 1984 - this four-track railroad was very much unused. Conrail reduced it to two tracks from the new CP Wago up river - removing Cly and Lemo to the east (south) end of Enola. I think I remember seeing the third track in at the east (south) end of Enola. I don't think it saw any action for some time though. Cos Cos Communications, Inc. Home Page Rail Road Pages -----Original Message----- From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu [mailto:vck@andrew.cmu.edu] Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 11:22 PM To: Wayne S. Betty (The Cos) Subject: Re: [PRR] Wago, Cly and Lemo Cos, Many thanks for the web page. I missed the initial exchange that led you to post the URL. I am very familiar with Lemo/"J", but please, will you help me with a geography lesson on the NC and A&S? To wit: What do the initials "A&S" signify? Where are Wago and Cly? What were their significance? Thanks, Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] PRR GG1 strange livery Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 00:51:42 -0400 I was looking at an auction on Ebay recently and came across a photo for sale with a PRR GG1 on the head of a passenger train. It was unusual in that in place of the normal Pennsylvania on the sides under the five stripe was East West Railroad. Now since the photo was a scan I couldn't tell if it was painted on the locomotive or added to a retouched photo. The photo was captioned "An Electric Passenger train" so it may have been for some promotion. any information on this strange engine would be appreciated. Thanks Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Brian J Carlson" Subject: [PRR] Track charts Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 01:41:56 -0400 I have a simple question . When looking at track charts sidings often give a car capacity. what is the nominal length of the car used in these counts? 40' 50' I have read in a NYC (I know the enemy) ETT that 44' foot cars were the basis. What was the PRR basis? Brian J Carlson Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GG1 strange livery Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 07:49:46 -0400 East West Railroad and North South Railroad were the names the Association of American Railroads used on their publicity photos so as not to offend or favor any real railroads. I'm sure one of these photos what you are seeing on eBay. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: Brian J Carlson To: PRR Talk Date: Sunday, August 26, 2001 12:56 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR GG1 strange livery >I was looking at an auction on Ebay recently and came across a photo for >sale with a PRR GG1 on the head of a passenger train. It was unusual in that >in place of the normal Pennsylvania on the sides under the five stripe was >East West Railroad. Now since the photo was a scan I couldn't tell if it was >painted on the locomotive or added to a retouched photo. The photo was >captioned "An Electric Passenger train" so it may have been for some >promotion. any information on this strange engine would be appreciated. >Thanks >Brian J Carlson >Cheektowaga NY > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: Re: [PRR] Sunset M1a question Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 08:06:49 -0400 Eric and List I have one of the earlier Sunset M1a's and am very pleased with it. I am not a rivet counter but the engine is very well detailed and does not suffer from the oversize FWH and stack of the Westside model nor the pilot air tank being too far forward as on the Sunset Prestige version of the engine. It is a good puller and and smooth runner - wish I could find a couple more at a reasonable price. With repect to the Proto 2000 PRR HH-1; I hope those of you waiting in anxious anticipation are not too disappointed in its pulling power. I have sold a number to customers who model other roads and they all are pretty much in agreement that the engines look great but don't pull very well and there is no room to add weight. Life-Like indicates they should pull about 50 cars on level track; the best one could do at a local club was pull about 40 NMRA-weighted cars. As for grades, the best it could do on a 2% grade was about 22 cars. As they say on TV, your results may vary but I thought I would pass along some field data. Frank Brua -----Original Message----- From: Eric Lauterbach To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Saturday, August 18, 2001 2:07 PM Subject: [PRR] Sunset M1a question >While not in the market for any brass engine right now, as I am saving for >the P2K PRR 2-8-8-2, I do like to window shop and keep up with current >market prices. I recently saw a Sunset Samhongsa built M1a listed, and I do >not think it is a prestige line engine. I checked the Brown book and it >listed a Sunset M1a being imported in 1980 before the prestige line engine. >Can anyone tell me about this engine, like how detailed is it? Is it >accurate? I am familiar with the GEM, WSM, and prestige Sunset M1a, how >does this compare? >Thanks, >Eric > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GG1 strange livery Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 08:08:01 -0400 Brian: At one time, the AAR airbrushed photographs used in its publications to show "East & West" and "North & South" railroads or "E&W" and "N&S" initials to replace those shown on equipment. Guess they were afraid of offending the members whose equipment was not shown. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian J Carlson" To: "PRR Talk" Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 12:51 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR GG1 strange livery > I was looking at an auction on Ebay recently and came across a photo for > sale with a PRR GG1 on the head of a passenger train. It was unusual in that > in place of the normal Pennsylvania on the sides under the five stripe was > East West Railroad. Now since the photo was a scan I couldn't tell if it was > painted on the locomotive or added to a retouched photo. The photo was > captioned "An Electric Passenger train" so it may have been for some > promotion. any information on this strange engine would be appreciated. > Thanks > Brian J Carlson > Cheektowaga NY > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 08:42:06 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RS-11 Hi All, Does anyone have good photos (overhead etc.) showing the antennas and antenna stanchions for the RS-11? A quick pass through my Pennsy Power books did not reveal any. I have Diesel years 1-5. I made a good haul out of Ted Mauer's place yesterday. There were 500 lots of solid brass. Any help would be mostly appreciated. Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/zoU8wD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] RS-11 Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 08:42:06 -0400 Hi All, Does anyone have good photos (overhead etc.) showing the antennas and antenna stanchions for the RS-11? A quick pass through my Pennsy Power books did not reveal any. I have Diesel years 1-5. I made a good haul out of Ted Mauer's place yesterday. There were 500 lots of solid brass. Any help would be mostly appreciated. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 09:07:23 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GG1 strange livery From: "William J. Ayers" Greg, Brian, List, My mother received a teacher's packet from AAR just after the war which has about 30 or so photos of the N&W, retouched as East and West Railroad, showing all aspects of the railroad business from engines to dispatchers, accounting office, etc. It came with a teacher's guide book to aid in the teaching of railroads to elementary school kids. I still have it packed away in the attic, unfortunately, there are no PRR photos in it. I'll have to dig it out... Bill Ayers > From: "Gregg Mahlkov" > Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 08:08:01 -0400 > To: "Brian J Carlson" , "PRR Talk" > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GG1 strange livery > > Brian: > > At one time, the AAR airbrushed photographs used in its publications to show > "East & West" and "North & South" railroads or "E&W" and "N&S" initials to > replace those shown on equipment. Guess they were afraid of offending the > members whose equipment was not shown. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brian J Carlson" > To: "PRR Talk" > Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 12:51 AM > Subject: [PRR] PRR GG1 strange livery > > >> I was looking at an auction on Ebay recently and came across a photo for >> sale with a PRR GG1 on the head of a passenger train. It was unusual in > that >> in place of the normal Pennsylvania on the sides under the five stripe was >> East West Railroad. Now since the photo was a scan I couldn't tell if it > was >> painted on the locomotive or added to a retouched photo. The photo was >> captioned "An Electric Passenger train" so it may have been for some >> promotion. any information on this strange engine would be appreciated. >> Thanks >> Brian J Carlson >> Cheektowaga NY >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". >> >> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Paul Stumpff Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR GG1 strange livery Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:32:01 -0400 Brian and others: Believe picture is from a public relations series by AAR in late 1930s and 1940s. Railroad names were changed for security [WWII], as well as to be impartial to all member railroads. Although, many pictures can be narrowed down to a particular company or location by anyone with rail knowledge [i.e. PRR GG-1's, UP Big Boys, etc.]. Do not know how rare or collectible those pictures are. Did see several examples at one time or another over the years in personal and public collections. Paul Stumpff; Geneva,. Ohio * Subject: PRR GG1 strange livery * From: "Brian J Carlson" * Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 00:51:42 -0400 * * I was looking at an auction on Ebay recently and came across a photo for * sale with a PRR GG1 on the head of a passenger train. It was unusual in that * in place of the normal Pennsylvania on the sides under the five stripe was * East West Railroad. Now since the photo was a scan I couldn't tell if it was * painted on the locomotive or added to a retouched photo. The photo was * captioned "An Electric Passenger train" so it may have been for some * promotion. any information on this strange engine would be appreciated. * Thanks * Brian J Carlson * Cheektowaga NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:28:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR L2s Locos Greetings list members. In researching the possible conversion of an Atlas N gauge Mikado to a PRR L1s I found out the Atlas loco is very close to the PRR L2s locos. The PRR had 5 of these locos and they started service on the GR&I RR (thanks Gregg M.) Anyone on the list know if these 5 L2s loco saw service into the 1950s? did these locos ever see service on other parts of the line? Would an L2s ever travel around Horseshoe curve or through South Fork? Thanks Mark L. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:28:59 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GG1 strange livery From: "William J. Ayers" Brian, I just dug out the teacher's kit. Not having looked at it in quite a few years, my memory of it has faded. It contains 56 photos, #6 is the "E&W" GG1. The kit is entitled "A Study of Railway Transportation", dated 1944, second edition. Some of the photos are of N&W (not North and West!) engines and erecting shop, as well as some historical shots (Golden Spike ceremony, painting of the "Tom Thumb", etc.) and of some railroads I can't identify, some passenger car interiors, ticket counters, loading and unloading cargo, car inspection, etc. As I mentioned in my earlier message, it depicts all aspects of running a railroad, has a teacher's manual for primary and intermediate grades and "The Stories Behind the Pictures". The quality of the photos are fairly good, but it is obvious that they are printed copies of the originals. Just curious, what is the current bid on the "E&W" GG1? Bill > From: "William J. Ayers" > Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 09:07:23 -0700 > To: Gregg Mahlkov , Brian J Carlson > , PRR Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GG1 strange livery > > Greg, Brian, List, > My mother received a teacher's packet from AAR just after the war which has > about 30 or so photos of the N&W, retouched as East and West Railroad, > showing all aspects of the railroad business from engines to dispatchers, > accounting office, etc. It came with a teacher's guide book to aid in the > teaching of railroads to elementary school kids. I still have it packed away > in the attic, unfortunately, there are no PRR photos in it. I'll have to dig > it out... > Bill Ayers > >> From: "Gregg Mahlkov" >> Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 08:08:01 -0400 >> To: "Brian J Carlson" , "PRR Talk" >> Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR GG1 strange livery >> >> Brian: >> >> At one time, the AAR airbrushed photographs used in its publications to show >> "East & West" and "North & South" railroads or "E&W" and "N&S" initials to >> replace those shown on equipment. Guess they were afraid of offending the >> members whose equipment was not shown. >> >> Gregg Mahlkov >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Brian J Carlson" >> To: "PRR Talk" >> Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 12:51 AM >> Subject: [PRR] PRR GG1 strange livery >> >> >>> I was looking at an auction on Ebay recently and came across a photo for >>> sale with a PRR GG1 on the head of a passenger train. It was unusual in >> that >>> in place of the normal Pennsylvania on the sides under the five stripe was >>> East West Railroad. Now since the photo was a scan I couldn't tell if it >> was >>> painted on the locomotive or added to a retouched photo. The photo was >>> captioned "An Electric Passenger train" so it may have been for some >>> promotion. any information on this strange engine would be appreciated. >>> Thanks >>> Brian J Carlson >>> Cheektowaga NY >>> >>> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >>> "listserv@dsop.com". >>> >>> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >> "listserv@dsop.com". > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:34:30 -0400 From: "Richard Poole" Subject: [PRR] DIESEL PAINT QUESTION In 1997 I completed my live steam project of building a one inch scale, PRR, M-1b. During its construction, I was given a DUPONT paint number for PRR's LOCOMOTIVE PAINT (Known today as BRUNSWICK GREEN). I went to my local DUPONT dealer and they mixed that color from the number I gave them and I used that paint on my locomotive. As far as I can detemine, the LOCOMOTIVE PAINT I used is the correct color for PRR locomotives. Having told you all this, my new project is building a 1.6 scale model of PRR's FP-7. Specifically, PRR 9833, EFP15 (As seen on page #319 of PENNSY POWER II). They state that the first two A-B-A sets were TUSCAN RED with the five stripes. I DO NOT believe that these units were painted the TUSCAN RED we know today as TUSCAN RED. It is obvious to me that the diesels and the passenger equipment were different shades of RED. If one believes that the passenger coaches were TUSCAN RED, what color were the diesels?? Can one of you come up with the DUPONT mixing number for the RED that the PRR used to paint its PASSENGER DIESELS in the late 40's and 50's?? I got a close up view of the E-8's 5711 and 5809 while they were here in HARRISBURG, PA. They were coupled to PRR business car #120. The two pieces of equipment were NOT the same "TUSCAN RED". The diesels were far more RED, even toward Pinkish compared to the #120 while was far more toward purplish. THANKS in advance for any help you can provide. DICK POOLE Dpoole17@PAnetwork.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:48:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR L2s Thanks Bill. I think you let the air out of that project. The USRA light mikados used in the teens will be to early for my layout. OH well!   My original plan was to fit the GHQ PRR L1s conversion kit on the Atlas Mike.Unfortunately GHQ as of July discontinued the L1s kit,RATS! Another list member suggested using a Trix K4 shell and modifying it.That the way I'll go if I cant find a GHQ L1s kit somewhere. Mark L. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:02:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR G53sd steam loco?? In digging up info on the L1s and L2's I found a PRR motive Power list for 1947. Found some locos I never heard of. What in the world is a G53sd? Anyone know what its wheel configuration was? Anyone know of any online photos of the loco? I was also surprised to see only 9 L1s in use in 1947. I thought the Pennsy had a lot more of them. Had scraping already begun? -------------Mark L---------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:43:16 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR G53sd steam loco?? Mark Lehman wrote: > In digging up info on the L1s and L2's I found a PRR motive Power list > for 1947. Found some locos I never heard of. What in the world is a > G53sd? Anyone know what its wheel configuration was? Anyone know of any > online photos of the loco? > I was also surprised to see only 9 L1s in use in 1947. I thought the > Pennsy had a lot more of them. Had scraping already begun? > -------------Mark L---------------------------- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark- Do you have a number for G53sd? I can look it up that way. Something is wrong with your list. I counted 21 L1s on the Phila. Division alone as of 4/1/53. Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed PRRT&HS # 156 Modeling the C&PD in HO ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 17:16:26 -0400 From: Elliot Fishbein Subject: [PRR] G53sd The G indicates at ten wheeler and the 50 classification means that it is nonstandard, not having a Belpaire firebox. The Long Island had several G53s. They had 60.5" drivers and a wheelbase of 13' 7", making them a little smaller than a G5. They were used in both commuter service and local freight. I hope this helps. Elliot Elliot Fishbein Cochecton Center, NY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 18:23:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR G53sd steam loco?? From: aurora7@juno.com The G-53sd was a Long Island Rail Road ten-wheeler. It was non-standard, having a Wooten firebox. The locos hung on until about 1950, and then disappeared fast. They were mostly used in wreck/work train service. While these 4-6-0's were decked out to look as Pennsy family locos, they had round number plates as opposed to the Keystones that adorned G-5s. These were built by ALCO at either Brooks or Schenectady. Richard Glueck Peace of the Planet Farm Winterport, Maine "Honk!" - Harpo ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 18:19:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] G53sd Pat and interested list members.I found the 1947 motive power list in the book"The Pennsylvania RR A pictorial history" by Edwin Alexander. Published in 1947. Page 244. The list includes the LI RR. Gary M. found a photo. Check it out. http://www.nyandw.com/images/145%207-5-31%20LI%20City.jpg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: L1sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 18:28:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] L1s on the PRR Checked the 1947 motive power list a little closer. The PRR did indeed have more than 9 L1s's. List as follows L1s (s) 513 locos L1s (hf) 39 locos L1s (of) 9 locos Anyone know what the s,hf and the of stand for?-----------Mark L---------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 21:30:58 -0400 From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] L1s on the PRR It's a guess - Stoker, Hand Fired, Oil Fired. John Ryan Mark Lehman wrote: > Checked the 1947 motive power list a little closer. The PRR did indeed > have more than 9 L1s's. List as follows > > L1s (s) 513 locos > L1s (hf) 39 locos > L1s (of) 9 locos > > Anyone know what the s,hf and the of stand for?-----------Mark > L---------------- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:29:46 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: PRR/Panhandle in Dayton (3) - trackage rights for the Dayton & Union Railway In a message dated 11/30/98 9:22:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, FRANKGARON writes: << Hi Rick: IIRC, the B&O (or predecessor) had it's own line from Dayton to Dodson at one time. They later abandoned it, and got rights over the PRR. I think I read this in the RSHS convention book from about 3 years ago. Frank >> Frank, Found this old message in my system. The evidence is strong that this is true -- you can find old maps that show where the D&U's/B&O's Stillwater Branch wandered around Dayton's West Side and then approached the Pennsy (Dayton & Western) alignment at Stillwater Junction. What gets less clear is whether the D&U: 1) crossed the Pennsy at Stillwater Jct and then paralleled it out to Dodson OH, or 2) came on the Pennsy track at Stillwater Jct and then used trackage rights to Dodson, where the switch toward Union City came off. What I do know is that by modern times, the D&U/B&O trains simply ran up the PRR from Dayton Union Station to Dodson, where they swung off. These trains continued through Greenville (crossing a PRR line there) and ran almost to the Indiana state line. Very close to Union City OH, I believe the B&O met the PRR main Columbus-Bradford-Logansport-Chicago, and used this PRR track to complete its run into Union City. Here, on the border between Ohio and Indiana, the PRR Columbus-Logansport track crossed the New York Central from Cleveland to Indianapolis. Of course, this latter "Big Four" line, passing through Bellefountaine OH, was known as the "Bee Line". Since it's been awhile, we should reiterate that the Dayton Union Station Company (a PRR/NYC/B&O/Erie joint-use property in Dayton OH that operated elevated tracks and a passenger station complex) should not be confused with the Dayton & Union Railway, essentially a B&O branch running northwest out of Dayton, and otherwise touching only small towns in the state of Ohio. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/zoU8wD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:29:46 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR/Panhandle in Dayton (3) - trackage rights for the In a message dated 11/30/98 9:22:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, FRANKGARON writes: << Hi Rick: IIRC, the B&O (or predecessor) had it's own line from Dayton to Dodson at one time. They later abandoned it, and got rights over the PRR. I think I read this in the RSHS convention book from about 3 years ago. Frank >> Frank, Found this old message in my system. The evidence is strong that this is true -- you can find old maps that show where the D&U's/B&O's Stillwater Branch wandered around Dayton's West Side and then approached the Pennsy (Dayton & Western) alignment at Stillwater Junction. What gets less clear is whether the D&U: 1) crossed the Pennsy at Stillwater Jct and then paralleled it out to Dodson OH, or 2) came on the Pennsy track at Stillwater Jct and then used trackage rights to Dodson, where the switch toward Union City came off. What I do know is that by modern times, the D&U/B&O trains simply ran up the PRR from Dayton Union Station to Dodson, where they swung off. These trains continued through Greenville (crossing a PRR line there) and ran almost to the Indiana state line. Very close to Union City OH, I believe the B&O met the PRR main Columbus-Bradford-Logansport-Chicago, and used this PRR track to complete its run into Union City. Here, on the border between Ohio and Indiana, the PRR Columbus-Logansport track crossed the New York Central from Cleveland to Indianapolis. Of course, this latter "Big Four" line, passing through Bellefountaine OH, was known as the "Bee Line". Since it's been awhile, we should reiterate that the Dayton Union Station Company (a PRR/NYC/B&O/Erie joint-use property in Dayton OH that operated elevated tracks and a passenger station complex) should not be confused with the Dayton & Union Railway, essentially a B&O branch running northwest out of Dayton, and otherwise touching only small towns in the state of Ohio. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: [PRR] I1 Info Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 21:59:42 -0500 Okay steam fans, here is a tough question for you. I have a photo of the fireman's side of I1 4620 which I purchased from Bob Lorenz some years ago. It is dated 1954. Pennsy Steam Years Vol. III has a photo of the engineman's side of 4620 captioned 1951. Now the question: The PSYIII photo (right side) obviously shows the right side air pump, which many I1's were equipped with, with its steam supply line coming over the top of the boiler down to the pump just ahead of the firebox. Normally this line comes from a T in the line which supplies steam to the left side pump, originating from the left side of the steam dome. The 1954 photo (left side) clearly shows the steam supply line from the steam dome to the left side pump, but there is no T to supply steam to a pump on the right side. Was there a different originating point for the right side steam supply to the air pump? Was the right side pump removed between 1951 and 1954? Does anyone have a photo of 4620? One of my Decs is a PFM model detailed and painted to represent 4620, which I selected just because I did not think there was a pump on the right side. Gary? Don? I realize this is a pretty obscure detail to question. Thanks for your help. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR G53sd steam loco?? Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:34:01 -0400 Mark: Class G53sd were the last non-PRR designed power built for the Long Island. IMHO better looking than the G5. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Lehman" To: Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 2:02 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR G53sd steam loco?? > In digging up info on the L1s and L2's I found a PRR motive Power list > for 1947. Found some locos I never heard of. What in the world is a > G53sd? Anyone know what its wheel configuration was? Anyone know of any > online photos of the loco? > I was also surprised to see only 9 L1s in use in 1947. I thought the > Pennsy had a lot more of them. Had scraping already begun? > -------------Mark L---------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:29:41 -0400 Subject: [PRR] York Haven / A&S Activity From: Jerry Britton Two separate tidbits here, but possibly related: Saturday morning I was at a meeting where several individuals claimed that the reactivation of the former PRR Atglen & Susquehanna (A&S) was all but a done deal. Wouldn't it be nice to see the twin bridges at Safe Harbor in full use again? Saturday afternoon I was at a picnic on a small slice of land between the river and the York Haven line just above the town of Goldsboro -- making it roughly 10-12 miles railroad east of Enola. At about 2 p.m. I heard this "putsy" sounding "thing" coming down the RoW. I didn't have a camera with me and I was about 100 feet from the tracks and did not get a clear look due to the brush, but travelling east was a diesel powered crane car with an electromagnet on its boom. Behind it was a gondola (or two). I was on-site until about 5:30 and did not see the crane head back to Enola. A short time later a pair of diesels headed east, light. On two instances two NS trucks drove down the RoW. West the first time, east later. Something was going on, somewhere! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:18:05 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] York Haven / A&S Activity Jerry Britton wrote: > > Two separate tidbits here, but possibly related: > > Saturday morning I was at a meeting where several individuals claimed that > the reactivation of the former PRR Atglen & Susquehanna (A&S) was all but a > done deal. Wouldn't it be nice to see the twin bridges at Safe Harbor in > full use again? Well, since the chances of GG1's and E44's are nil, the best we can hope for are Bennett's EP22's going northbound on the high trestle, stop just over the creek area (apex for the curve) for a photo op and then come southbound on the low trestle. The sound of the diesels might be drowned out by all those shutters clicking. And we'd all be grinning like Cheshire cats. Bill Morlitz > > Saturday afternoon I was at a picnic on a small slice of land between the > river and the York Haven line just above the town of Goldsboro -- making it > roughly 10-12 miles railroad east of Enola. > > At about 2 p.m. I heard this "putsy" sounding "thing" coming down the RoW. I > didn't have a camera with me and I was about 100 feet from the tracks and > did not get a clear look due to the brush, but travelling east was a diesel > powered crane car with an electromagnet on its boom. Behind it was a gondola > (or two). I was on-site until about 5:30 and did not see the crane head back > to Enola. > > A short time later a pair of diesels headed east, light. > > On two instances two NS trucks drove down the RoW. West the first time, east > later. > > Something was going on, somewhere! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:55:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] I1 Info Eagle-eye Steve, I read and reread your email to make sure I follow you. I then awated for any replys that would come your way. This morning I dug out my photo albums. I do not have the PSY3 yet to see that photo of 4620 engineers side. However, I do have a photo of I1sa 4620 dated 6-11-56 at Altoona. Firemans side is shown and NO there is no pipe going over to the firemans side pump. This is as you described in your 1954 photo as well. You say the 1951 photo shows the pipe. Hmmm. Could the pipe be rerouted under the boiler now? I will look for evidence in my other photos of I1's. Is that pic in PSY3 really of 4620? I wouldn't imagine the Pennsy removing an air pump, but........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:08:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] I1 Info Eagle-eye Steve, I made a misstake in my post. I wrote: Firemans side is shown and NO there is no pipe going over to the firemans side pump. This is as you described in your 1954 photo as well. It should say: Firemans side is shown and NO there is no pipe going over to the ENGINEERS side pump. This is as you described in your 1954 photo as well. ......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: [PRR] PRR N5c cabin 477823 Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 12:14:18 -0400 Hi all, Our local railroad museum here in Northern New Jersey (Whippany Railroad Museum) has just acquired an N5c, the 477823 (CR/PC 23020). It's currently in very ratty Conrail blue but the plan is to restore it into the shadow keystone scheme... One of the taksks before us is to restore the plated over windows. Any ideas where we can either get or have fabricated, new porthole window frames? What color would the interior have been in the late 50's. Any suggestions for commercially available paint color matches for the interior and exterior color? Does anyone know any of the history of this car? The only specifics I have are that it was assigned to the Northern Region / Buttonwood-Enola. (From Jerry's roster...) We would really love to find some in service photos of the car for supporting exhibit information. (PRR preferred but PC or CR will do also...) Also, I'd like to know when the trainphone antennas were removed from this cabin... If they lasted late enough, I'll start my uphill battle to convice everyone here that the car needs them! Thanks in advance for the help! Rob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jpk815@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:39:33 EDT Subject: [PRR] Re: take me off this list: unsubscribe Remove me from this list unsibscribe me take me off << PRR-Talk@dsop.com >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:34:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] L1s on the PRR In a message dated 08/26/2001 6:38:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, L1sDRIVER@webtv.net writes: << L1s (s) 513 locos L1s (hf) 39 locos L1s (of) 9 locos Anyone know what the s,hf and the of stand for?-----------Mark L---------------- >> s = stoker hf = hand fired of = oil fired Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 00:53:39 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: [PRR] Cumberland Valley Images Greetings to the list. I've added some new photo essays to my Industrial Heritage Homepage. Of particular interest to subscribers to this list, I think, are some post cards of Cumberland Valley Railroad/CV Divison passenger stations and the PRR's Mt. Union Creosoting plant. You can get to these images via my main page at URL http://www.usaor.net/users/vagelk OR link directly to the postcard page at URL http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/vck/postcard01.htm Enjoy. Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 06:43:31 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] L2 USRA Mikes in Cincinnati -- Lines West engines In a message dated 8/26/01 11:39:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Subject: PRR L2s Locos From: "Mark Lehman" Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:28:09 -0400 (EDT) Greetings list members. In researching the possible conversion of an Atlas N gauge Mikado to a PRR L1s I found out the Atlas loco is very close to the PRR L2s locos. The PRR had 5 of these locos and they started service on the GR&I RR (thanks Gregg M.) Anyone on the list know if these 5 L2s loco saw service into the 1950s? did these locos ever see service on other parts of the line? Would an L2s ever travel around Horseshoe curve or through South Fork? Thanks Mark L. >> Mark, I can't find an "official" answer to this in my files, but: 1) USRA power was always assigned to "Lines West of Pittsburgh", and only Lines West, probably because Lines East had historically run its own designs, and Lines West had been somewhat less standardized. For one thing, in the 19th Century, Lines West was always leasing new roads that came with non-standard "legacy" power. Of course, Lines West also had some "standard designs" (e.g. E7, N2) that Lines East didn't order. As an aside, it's sometimes claimed that even into diesel years, Lines West got the old junk that wasn't satisfactory on Lines East, but we also have to realize that traffic density was lower west of Pittsburgh, and thus road failures were just that much less catastrophic 2) USRA tried to assign 30-35 of their Mikes to the Pennsy system; apparently all but 5 were foisted off quickly onto the Frisco and the MoPac. 3) The remaining 5 (it is said) operated out of Pendleton engine terminal in Cincinnati. This is located on the ex-"Little Miami Railroad" to Xenia and Columbus. However, these 5 engines were assigned to the Richmond Branch, and thus were used Cincinnati-Richmond and/or Cincinnati-Fort Wayne. Whether these were GR&I rails is a matter of which historian is being consulted, but this is unquestionably the route of trains to the GR&I -- once a major passenger routing for summer vacations, and famous as "The Fishing Line". 4) was the L2 a good engine? There's no evidence they weren't. "L2s" is still listed among Pennsy's steam locomotive specifications in the 109J list of May 1948, weighing 292000 pounds in working order vs. the L1 at 318400. With slightly less weight on every axle, the L2 had starting tractive effort of 54724 lbs instead of L1's 61465 -- if anything, a better engine on lighter rail, which was undoubtedly plentiful on lines off the mains radiating out from Cincinnati. Incidentally, the tender is listed as a 100F78; I'm not enough of a student of PRR steam to be sure if this is a unique, but I see the N2sa had a 120F78. I wonder if the 78" deck was a USRA standard? 4) Personally, I'll just say that the only L2 pix I've ever seen looked a lot like Pendleton. My conclusion is that if you're east of say Columbus OH, the L2 is a fantasy. Sorry to be negative -- but that's the history as far as I know it. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/zoU8wD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 06:43:31 EDT Subject: [PRR] L2 USRA Mikes in Cincinnati -- Lines West engines In a message dated 8/26/01 11:39:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Subject: PRR L2s Locos From: "Mark Lehman" Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:28:09 -0400 (EDT) Greetings list members. In researching the possible conversion of an Atlas N gauge Mikado to a PRR L1s I found out the Atlas loco is very close to the PRR L2s locos. The PRR had 5 of these locos and they started service on the GR&I RR (thanks Gregg M.) Anyone on the list know if these 5 L2s loco saw service into the 1950s? did these locos ever see service on other parts of the line? Would an L2s ever travel around Horseshoe curve or through South Fork? Thanks Mark L. >> Mark, I can't find an "official" answer to this in my files, but: 1) USRA power was always assigned to "Lines West of Pittsburgh", and only Lines West, probably because Lines East had historically run its own designs, and Lines West had been somewhat less standardized. For one thing, in the 19th Century, Lines West was always leasing new roads that came with non-standard "legacy" power. Of course, Lines West also had some "standard designs" (e.g. E7, N2) that Lines East didn't order. As an aside, it's sometimes claimed that even into diesel years, Lines West got the old junk that wasn't satisfactory on Lines East, but we also have to realize that traffic density was lower west of Pittsburgh, and thus road failures were just that much less catastrophic 2) USRA tried to assign 30-35 of their Mikes to the Pennsy system; apparently all but 5 were foisted off quickly onto the Frisco and the MoPac. 3) The remaining 5 (it is said) operated out of Pendleton engine terminal in Cincinnati. This is located on the ex-"Little Miami Railroad" to Xenia and Columbus. However, these 5 engines were assigned to the Richmond Branch, and thus were used Cincinnati-Richmond and/or Cincinnati-Fort Wayne. Whether these were GR&I rails is a matter of which historian is being consulted, but this is unquestionably the route of trains to the GR&I -- once a major passenger routing for summer vacations, and famous as "The Fishing Line". 4) was the L2 a good engine? There's no evidence they weren't. "L2s" is still listed among Pennsy's steam locomotive specifications in the 109J list of May 1948, weighing 292000 pounds in working order vs. the L1 at 318400. With slightly less weight on every axle, the L2 had starting tractive effort of 54724 lbs instead of L1's 61465 -- if anything, a better engine on lighter rail, which was undoubtedly plentiful on lines off the mains radiating out from Cincinnati. Incidentally, the tender is listed as a 100F78; I'm not enough of a student of PRR steam to be sure if this is a unique, but I see the N2sa had a 120F78. I wonder if the 78" deck was a USRA standard? 4) Personally, I'll just say that the only L2 pix I've ever seen looked a lot like Pendleton. My conclusion is that if you're east of say Columbus OH, the L2 is a fantasy. Sorry to be negative -- but that's the history as far as I know it. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] I1 Info Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 08:54:34 -0500 Gary--Thanks for looking into my I1 4620 question. The right side photo in PSY3 ( p. 40) sure looks like 4620 to me. Although the cab side is pretty grimey, under bright light and magnification it seems like 4620 is the number. Puzzling! The caption says 4620, but I gave up relying on captions long ago. Steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:32:32 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Home Page For List Moved From: Jerry Britton List subscribers, I have moved the "home page" of the PRR list to a new subdomain. Eventually all DSOP.COM lists will move there. This does NOT affect any of the e-mail addresses you use for list functions. This new site offers access to the archives and technical support. The new site is at http://lists.dsop.com Please bookmark it. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmaster ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:44:25 -0400 From: Bob Colquitt Subject: [PRR] Re: [STMFC] CRDX boxcars - former Pennsy? This is from the frt car "model" group. Since these are "proto" cars and possible PRR, anyone? But without photos it will be hard to discern the exact car info. The links are rejoined so you prototypers can access the listings. -=- Bob Colquitt hicksco2@hotmail.com wrote: > > I am a volunteer with the Illinois Railway Museum in Union, Illinois > (www.irm.org), and I am currently researching the history of a trio > of boxcars we have been using for storage. They are CRDX (Chicago > Freight Car Leasing) #5402, 5419, and 5426. All three are steel > boxcars, 44'5" over the coupler pulling faces, built in 1948 and with > 110,000 lbs capacity. Our roster claims that they were built by CFC, > but this is highly doubtful. The cars have ASF trucks, but - > intriguingly enough - the trucks have "PRR" cast into them. Is it > possible that these three cars are former Pennsy? If so, does anyone > have any ideas as to what series these cars would have been in? > > Here are the links to these cars' pages on the IRM online roster: > http://www.irm.org/cgi-bin/rsearch.cgi?freight=Chicago+Freight+Car+Company=5402 > http://www.irm.org/cgi-bin/rsearch.cgi?freight=Chicago+Freight+Car+Company=5419 > http://www.irm.org/cgi-bin/rsearch.cgi?freight=Chicago+Freight+Car+Company=5426 > > Thanks for any help you can provide! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "?d ???s" Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited "Drumhead" Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:06:11 -0500 PRR Listers: In the late 1950's - early 1960's, a new drumhead was used on the observation cars (i.e.: Tower View). It really was not a drumhead but rather a rectangular billboard that fitted below the windows. I believe that the drumhead had a curved relief to it; the letters had a relief too and from the looks of photos, had a stainless steel finish. My questions are: when was this drumhead adopted for use? Also, has anyone come out with decals for this drumhead? Has anyone done this drumhead from scatch in HO scale? I think that there is a good picture of this drumhead in Pennsy Power 2. Thanks in advance for any information that you can provide me and the list! Ted Andrews _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "?d ???s" Subject: [PRR] Fleet of Modernism and Middle Division Decals Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 11:13:10 -0500 PRR Listers: Are there any FOT decals in HO scale? In regards to Middle Division Decals, is there a listing (either published or online) of the available decals sheets and what specifically is on each sheet (i.e.: car names, etc.)? TIA Ted Andrews _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:59:41 EDT From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR/Panhandle in Dayton (3) - trackage rights for To Rick and all, I'm still out here blessed with a short attention span. Been paying attention to my personal and professional life. Fun stuff like railroads is taking aback seat to ending a marriage while raising two teenaged sons and trying to re-establish a professional life after three years of "retirement" on 100 percent disability. My relationship with my 15-year-old son has had a dtrect impact on my writing. On several ocassions during the past year he's decided that he could better use key components of my PC -- CPU, CD-ROM drive and CD-ROM burner -- and in the process there was damage and no money. Dayton's Computerfest was this past weekend -- nation's largest computer show sponsored by a user group and scored heavily 733Mhz Cerelon CPU for $56, Western Digital 20Gb HDD for $80, 40X CD-ROM Drive for $29 and two 128Mb memory sticks for $17 each for total of $209 total. this will permit my installtion of voice activated software. New medication schedule is dramatically reducing periods of immobility. I might be able to resume driving but would still appreciate ride to Cincinnati NMRA meet next month and Div 7 show in Covinmgton, Ky. in November. Greg Martin, I'm hoping to find out if N6 story is still in damaged HDD tonight. I've got another story in there on the need to acknolwledge the effects of federal environmental law in detailing screnery and rolling stock, most notably the disappearance of soot from, and reappearance of aquatic flora and fauana in industrial cities after implementation of the Clean Air Act of 1970 and Clean Water Act of 1972 (or was it the Clean Air Act of 1972 and Clean Water Act of 1970.). Also discussed is modeling coal chutes and neighbor coal delivery trucks. Its genesis was an exchange you and I had over the true nature of DGLE. Rick, what would the guide entail and when is the 2002 convention... Oh, yeah, Rick. Last summer the bike path on the Panhandle Main was completed from Clement at the stop of the >1 percent grade between Dutoit Street and Smithville Road on Dayton's east side to South Charleston where it crosses the still active I&O (ex-DT&I modeled as part of Jim Hediger's Ohio Southern). South Charleston-London scheduled for completion this year. London-Columbus bike path uses ex-BigFour/NYC line that crossed Panhandle double-tracked main on diamonds just east of the Panhandle's London Depot. Now about the Dayton & Western (PRR/Panhanfle) and Dayton & Union (B&O) from Miamitown west to Dodson (1 mile north and west of Brookside on the northside of I-70 in the northwestern corner of Montgomery County. The most reliable map of Dayton's railroads shows the industriall tracks snaking though the west side as PRR and the D&W Panhandle main as the PCC&StL. D&U is not listed untill north of Dodson. Couple of years ago ran around Trotwood and Brookville for a weekend. Came home with the clear understanding that joint operation of the line may have begun in the late 1850s or early 1860s when D&W was owned by the Little Miami Rail Road Co. But those notes are at home and I'm in the library. I'll check it out if you want the definitive answer. Gee, say it again, when is the PRRT&HS convention going to be in Cincinnati? I want to make my reservations today. Tom V. + ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:59:41 EDT From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR/Panhandle in Dayton (3) - trackage rights for To Rick and all, I'm still out here blessed with a short attention span. Been paying attention to my personal and professional life. Fun stuff like railroads is taking aback seat to ending a marriage while raising two teenaged sons and trying to re-establish a professional life after three years of "retirement" on 100 percent disability. My relationship with my 15-year-old son has had a dtrect impact on my writing. On several ocassions during the past year he's decided that he could better use key components of my PC -- CPU, CD-ROM drive and CD-ROM burner -- and in the process there was damage and no money. Dayton's Computerfest was this past weekend -- nation's largest computer show sponsored by a user group and scored heavily 733Mhz Cerelon CPU for $56, Western Digital 20Gb HDD for $80, 40X CD-ROM Drive for $29 and two 128Mb memory sticks for $17 each for total of $209 total. this will permit my installtion of voice activated software. New medication schedule is dramatically reducing periods of immobility. I might be able to resume driving but would still appreciate ride to Cincinnati NMRA meet next month and Div 7 show in Covinmgton, Ky. in November. Greg Martin, I'm hoping to find out if N6 story is still in damaged HDD tonight. I've got another story in there on the need to acknolwledge the effects of federal environmental law in detailing screnery and rolling stock, most notably the disappearance of soot from, and reappearance of aquatic flora and fauana in industrial cities after implementation of the Clean Air Act of 1970 and Clean Water Act of 1972 (or was it the Clean Air Act of 1972 and Clean Water Act of 1970.). Also discussed is modeling coal chutes and neighbor coal delivery trucks. Its genesis was an exchange you and I had over the true nature of DGLE. Rick, what would the guide entail and when is the 2002 convention... Oh, yeah, Rick. Last summer the bike path on the Panhandle Main was completed from Clement at the stop of the >1 percent grade between Dutoit Street and Smithville Road on Dayton's east side to South Charleston where it crosses the still active I&O (ex-DT&I modeled as part of Jim Hediger's Ohio Southern). South Charleston-London scheduled for completion this year. London-Columbus bike path uses ex-BigFour/NYC line that crossed Panhandle double-tracked main on diamonds just east of the Panhandle's London Depot. Now about the Dayton & Western (PRR/Panhanfle) and Dayton & Union (B&O) from Miamitown west to Dodson (1 mile north and west of Brookside on the northside of I-70 in the northwestern corner of Montgomery County. The most reliable map of Dayton's railroads shows the industriall tracks snaking though the west side as PRR and the D&W Panhandle main as the PCC&StL. D&U is not listed untill north of Dodson. Couple of years ago ran around Trotwood and Brookville for a weekend. Came home with the clear understanding that joint operation of the line may have begun in the late 1850s or early 1860s when D&W was owned by the Little Miami Rail Road Co. But those notes are at home and I'm in the library. I'll check it out if you want the definitive answer. Gee, say it again, when is the PRRT&HS convention going to be in Cincinnati? I want to make my reservations today. Tom V. + ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:11:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR/Panhandle in Dayton (3) - trackage rights From: Jerry Britton On 8/28/01 2:59 PM, LINESWEST@aol.com (LINESWEST@aol.com) wrote: > Gee, say it again, when is the PRRT&HS convention going to be in Cincinnati? I > want to make my reservations today. > TENTATIVE for first week of May, 2004. 2002 will be in Camp Hill again 2003 will be outside of Philadelphia...in NJ I hear. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:21:27 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] OT - E33 Hey gang, Its off topic, but the latest product release info from Walthers includes an HO scale E-33 (Virginian EL-C, ex NH) in the Botchman Spectrum line...can an E-44 be far behind ??? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRRT&HS in Cincy was Re: PRR/Panhandle in Dayton (3) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 16:26:50 -0400 It's a shame they couldn't have it in the summer. Then you could make a vacation out of it. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:37:37 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] J-1 Builders Photos Hi All, I am hoping that someone has PRR Builders photos of the J-1 or J-1a and associated tenders that I could buy, borrow or trade for. They are coming out in S Scale next year. I wanted to help by comparing with the real builders photos. Here is my current PRR Builders photo collection. http://users.snip.net/~billlane/PRRphotos.xls You need Excel to open it. I really prefer first generation 8 x 10 photos if possible. If you have some, please contact me to work something out. Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/zoU8wD/4m7CAA/ySSFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] J-1 Builders Photos Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:37:37 -0400 Hi All, I am hoping that someone has PRR Builders photos of the J-1 or J-1a and associated tenders that I could buy, borrow or trade for. They are coming out in S Scale next year. I wanted to help by comparing with the real builders photos. Here is my current PRR Builders photo collection. http://users.snip.net/~billlane/PRRphotos.xls You need Excel to open it. I really prefer first generation 8 x 10 photos if possible. If you have some, please contact me to work something out. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] T-1 Lettering Question Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 18:51:26 -0400 Does anyone know the size of the circle and keystone that were on the tenders as part of the as-delivered paint scheme for T-1's #6110 and #6111? To the best of my knowledge, these were the only two engines to receive the keystone within a circle on their tenders. Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "parkvarieties" Subject: [PRR] Champ Decal News Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 19:13:50 -0400 Just received my dealer copy of Champ's final catalog. Rich Meyer has decided to go into semi-retirement, operating the decal business about three days a week and will cease printing decals when the lease on his printing plant expires at the end of 2003. No new decals sets will be issued by Champ. I'm sure the line will be offered for sale at that time. Of interest is the fact that he has decided to reprint a number of sets that have been out of production for some time, particularly road name sets. If some of your favorite connecting roads were dropped from the line at an earlier time, you might want to pick up a copy of this last catalog. Oh yes, he did raise prices effective immediatey and no, the Pennsy Truc-Train trailer set is not one of the re-issue sets - sorry. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 20:57:46 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited "Drumhead" From: "Douglas Nelson" > In the late 1950's - early 1960's, a new drumhead was used on the > observation cars (i.e.: Tower View). It really was not a drumhead but rather > a rectangular billboard that fitted below the windows. I believe that the > drumhead had a curved relief to it; the letters had a relief too and from > the looks of photos, had a stainless steel finish. > > My questions are: when was this drumhead adopted for use? Also, has anyone > come out with decals for this drumhead? Has anyone done this drumhead from > scatch in HO scale? Ted: This style "drumhead" was first used with the 1948 Broadway. The decal for the Broadway Limited sign is on the Microscale #891 PRR Passenger Cars. I scratch built the sign from styrene in N scale. Doug Nelson. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:19:24 EDT From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] NS on the curve There was a post on AOL that the writer questioned if NS was using helpers on the curve. I assume they are as it would be the most practical method rather than oevrpowering all trains for the downhill to Pittsburgh. Can anybody please confrim NS practice on the curve? Thanks, norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 09:38:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] NS on the curve From: Jerry Britton On 8/29/01 9:19 AM, NDBPRR@aol.com (NDBPRR@aol.com) wrote: > There was a post on AOL that the writer questioned if NS was using helpers on > the curve. I assume they are as it would be the most practical method rather > than oevrpowering all trains for the downhill to Pittsburgh. Can anybody > please confrim NS practice on the curve? Thanks, norm Bell I was there a few months ago and they will still using helpers per the style of Conrail. However, I was at a retirement party for a friend a week ago and a guy who was there indicated that they are starting to run their helpers from Altoona to Johnstown rather than cutting them off at the top and running them back light. With the helpers running downgrade on the tail of a train, it's one less move the dispatchers need to worry about. Makes sense. (Did I say that about NS?) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 17:50:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NS on the curve In a message dated 8/29/01 6:47:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << However, I was at a retirement party for a friend a week ago and a guy who was there indicated that they are starting to run their helpers from Altoona to Johnstown rather than cutting them off at the top and running them back light. With the helpers running downgrade on the tail of a train, it's one less move the dispatchers need to worry about. Makes sense. (Did I say that about NS?) >> Jerry & List, Also the helpers running downgrade on the tail end are not just hitching a ride. Nine times ouy of ten they're also there to provide help with dynamic braking on the hills and the curve itself. At least thats what I've always have been lead to believe... and what I have witnessed. Jon Sbordone ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 01:27:31 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Tom V's Dayton & Western/Dayton & Union observations In a message dated 8/29/01 1:12:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Now about the Dayton & Western (PRR/Panhanfle) and Dayton & Union (B&O) from Miamitown west to Dodson (1 mile north and west of Brookside on the northside of I-70 in the northwestern corner of Montgomery County. The most reliable map of Dayton's railroads shows the industriall tracks snaking though the west side as PRR and the D&W Panhandle main as the PCC&StL. D&U is not listed untill north of Dodson. Couple of years ago ran around Trotwood and Brookville for a weekend. Came home with the clear understanding that joint operation of the line may have begun in the late 1850s or early 1860s when D&W was owned by the Little Miami Rail Road Co. But those notes are at home and I'm in the library. I'll check it out if you want the definitive answer. >> I am glad to hear from LINESWEST, who is Tom Vondruska of Yellow Springs on the PRR Springfield Branch. He's not been on these lists much lately, fighting the course of Parkinson's Disease, etc. But 2-3 years ago, he was posting Lines West goodies like mad. He and I are both originally from near Dayton, and so both of us have haunted some of the rail locations around there. His message here updates us on the status of the Pittsburgh-St. Louis main line west of Dayton. Of course, almost all Dayton-area Pennsy track has been lifted, but there's been great success in paving it for cyclists. From Xenia, it sounds like you can now bike PRR right-of-way east to South Charleston OH, south toward Cincinnati to Morrow or so, north to Springfield, and west to the site of former Clement Yard. In Tom's exposition above, "Miamitown" is Miami City -- this town faced Dayton across the Great Miami River before it was absorbed and became Dayton's West Side. Old maps and station lists will show Miami City Junction (MP 16.6) and Miami City station (around MP 17.4) as distinct locations on the PRR; the Junction was the end of Dayton Union Station trackage and was only a few blocks west of Dayton Union Station (MP 16.0 from Xenia) across the doubletracked Great Miami River bridge. Tom mentions industrial tracks on Dayton's West Side as being Pennsy. Actually, the PRR had one branch that went out to "the Soldiers' Home". This was the National Military Home from Civil War Days, later a US Veterans Administration hospital and retirement home. But the B&O also had a branch that left South Dayton Yard (geographically south of Miami City Junction) and trickled northwest, angling up toward the PRR Dayton & Western line. Part of this line was still in when I started railfanning about 1969. On a map, if this B&O line were extended, it would join the D&W at Stillwater Junction (MP 20.3), which I'm fairly confident is just what happened. Addendum: According to a Dayton & Union Railroad timetable of January 1916, found in the Jack Fravert collection, 1916 D&U trains were stopping at the same stations as PRR trains, all the way out to Dodson. This pushes the date of B&O trains on the Pennsy back from 1925 to at least 1916. In addition, the reference to "Brookside" means Brookville, outside Dayton at MP 28.9. BTW, R.D. Acton Sr. shot some great pix of K4's on PRR passenger trains at speed out in this neck of the woods -- prints of some of these shots are available from Big Four Graphics (Jay Williams) in Indianapolis. OTOH, those of you who own Don Ball's "The Pennsylvania Railroad 1940's - 1950's" can turn to page 163 and see color Acton shots of both PRR and B&O trains at the junction town of Dodson. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make Financial Web sites more customer-friendly Get a $10 AMAZON.COM Gift Certificate http://us.click.yahoo.com/hJ2ldA/Bd6CAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 01:27:31 EDT Subject: [PRR] Tom V's Dayton & Western/Dayton & Union observations In a message dated 8/29/01 1:12:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Now about the Dayton & Western (PRR/Panhanfle) and Dayton & Union (B&O) from Miamitown west to Dodson (1 mile north and west of Brookside on the northside of I-70 in the northwestern corner of Montgomery County. The most reliable map of Dayton's railroads shows the industriall tracks snaking though the west side as PRR and the D&W Panhandle main as the PCC&StL. D&U is not listed untill north of Dodson. Couple of years ago ran around Trotwood and Brookville for a weekend. Came home with the clear understanding that joint operation of the line may have begun in the late 1850s or early 1860s when D&W was owned by the Little Miami Rail Road Co. But those notes are at home and I'm in the library. I'll check it out if you want the definitive answer. >> I am glad to hear from LINESWEST, who is Tom Vondruska of Yellow Springs on the PRR Springfield Branch. He's not been on these lists much lately, fighting the course of Parkinson's Disease, etc. But 2-3 years ago, he was posting Lines West goodies like mad. He and I are both originally from near Dayton, and so both of us have haunted some of the rail locations around there. His message here updates us on the status of the Pittsburgh-St. Louis main line west of Dayton. Of course, almost all Dayton-area Pennsy track has been lifted, but there's been great success in paving it for cyclists. From Xenia, it sounds like you can now bike PRR right-of-way east to South Charleston OH, south toward Cincinnati to Morrow or so, north to Springfield, and west to the site of former Clement Yard. In Tom's exposition above, "Miamitown" is Miami City -- this town faced Dayton across the Great Miami River before it was absorbed and became Dayton's West Side. Old maps and station lists will show Miami City Junction (MP 16.6) and Miami City station (around MP 17.4) as distinct locations on the PRR; the Junction was the end of Dayton Union Station trackage and was only a few blocks west of Dayton Union Station (MP 16.0 from Xenia) across the doubletracked Great Miami River bridge. Tom mentions industrial tracks on Dayton's West Side as being Pennsy. Actually, the PRR had one branch that went out to "the Soldiers' Home". This was the National Military Home from Civil War Days, later a US Veterans Administration hospital and retirement home. But the B&O also had a branch that left South Dayton Yard (geographically south of Miami City Junction) and trickled northwest, angling up toward the PRR Dayton & Western line. Part of this line was still in when I started railfanning about 1969. On a map, if this B&O line were extended, it would join the D&W at Stillwater Junction (MP 20.3), which I'm fairly confident is just what happened. Addendum: According to a Dayton & Union Railroad timetable of January 1916, found in the Jack Fravert collection, 1916 D&U trains were stopping at the same stations as PRR trains, all the way out to Dodson. This pushes the date of B&O trains on the Pennsy back from 1925 to at least 1916. In addition, the reference to "Brookside" means Brookville, outside Dayton at MP 28.9. BTW, R.D. Acton Sr. shot some great pix of K4's on PRR passenger trains at speed out in this neck of the woods -- prints of some of these shots are available from Big Four Graphics (Jay Williams) in Indianapolis. OTOH, those of you who own Don Ball's "The Pennsylvania Railroad 1940's - 1950's" can turn to page 163 and see color Acton shots of both PRR and B&O trains at the junction town of Dodson. Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 05:21:49 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Partial bibliography of CT1000, revision 9 Thanks for information received to (in alphabetical order) Jim Aldridge, Jeff Feldmeier, Bob Johnson, Pat McKinney, Paul Schopp, Tom Sellers, Garry Spear, Dave Wartell. Jim Aldridge reports some photocopies marked "C. T. 1000 1904". He says they came from the PA state RR museum several years ago. Editions were printed in: 1946 Supplement to 1945 edition, date not certain 1945 ------------+ 1923 | 1918 | 1915 | 1913 | 1911 Form C. T. 1000 ???? | (???? means "don't know") 1907 | 1906 | 1905 | 1904 | <---- New information 1903 | 1902 | 1901 | 1900 ------------+ 1899 Form number not known ???? Form number not known 1895 ------------+ ???? | 1891 Form C. R. 76 ???? | 1888 | 1887 ------------+ ???? Form number not known 1882 ------------+ ???? Form 76 C. R. 1879 ------------+ 1878 Form number not known 1877 Form 89 C. R. 1876 Form number not known ???? Now, if we could just get straight on what was published between 1907 and 1911 we would know when PRR changed from annually to biennially and we would have the 20th century nailed down. Well, except for nagging questions about the 1923 editions for Lines West (CT1000W vs. CT1000N and CT1000S); and just what did the USRA print in 1918; oh, and was there a PRSL CT1000? Looks like the 20th century still has some open questions. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 08:30:23 -0400 Subject: [PRR] This New Kato Offering Will Make You Sick!!! From: Jerry Britton Kato, while known for their mechanical quality, often leaves something to be desired in their prototype representation. A few months back I had inquired about the possibility of Kato running E-8's in other paint schemes. Charlie's reply was that, overall, Pennsy did not sell well and that he had shelves full of the corrugated passenger car sets. The fact that few, if any, of the passenger cars were prototype, did not seem to concern him. Like Athearn, it seems to be a "one design, paint for all" operation. Too bad. But the worst is yet to come! Kato just announced an "N Scale Cupola Caboose", with two road numbers for PRR. They do not claim to be prototypic with this release, an actually say "Although the road numbers we are reproducing may not be an exact scale miniature of an actual prototype unit, hobbyists can operate them on their layout with a sense of possible actuality." I really love that last part..."possible actuality"!!! The announcement is at http://www.katousa.com/html/N_Cupola_Caboose.htm The real kicker is that the mockup in PRR livery shows it as an N8. Does this look AT ALL like an N8 to you? http://www.katousa.com/images/caboose/prr.gif Charlie, if you're listening, don't run too many of these in PRR, or you'll really hate PRR modelers. They will not buy them. My advice: don't even waste the paint to do a PRR version!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:50:24 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited "Drumhead" The 48 BWAY equipment had traditional drumhead with an image of 4 tracks disappearing over the horizon in a keystone frame. The "billboard" tail sign did not appear until later. Anyone know exactly when? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Douglas Nelson wrote: > > > In the late 1950's - early 1960's, a new drumhead was used on the > > observation cars (i.e.: Tower View). It really was not a drumhead but rather > > a rectangular billboard that fitted below the windows. I believe that the > > drumhead had a curved relief to it; the letters had a relief too and from > > the looks of photos, had a stainless steel finish. > > > > My questions are: when was this drumhead adopted for use? Also, has anyone > > come out with decals for this drumhead? Has anyone done this drumhead from > > scatch in HO scale? > > Ted: > > This style "drumhead" was first used with the 1948 Broadway. > > The decal for the Broadway Limited sign is on the Microscale #891 PRR > Passenger Cars. I scratch built the sign from styrene in N scale. > > Doug Nelson. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:25:03 EDT From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] CT4001 and freight rate book for sale I have a CT 4001 from 6/1/64 in mint condition that lists all Reportable Locations for sale and a 2/1/54 Manual on Freight Rate Construction. The interior of the freight rate manual is mint but yellowed and the cover has wear on the edges and spine edges. I am asking $10 each plus $3.50 priority shipping. I can send digital pictures if you have interest. Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:44:29 -0500 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] This New Kato Offering Will Make You Sick!!! Jerry: What is wrong with these guys? You would think, that with all the good competition out there today, (particularly P2K), that they would have more of an insight for their market. Some things never cease to amaze me. Regards, Larry Jerry Britton wrote: > Kato, while known for their mechanical quality, often leaves something to be > desired in their prototype representation. > > A few months back I had inquired about the possibility of Kato running E-8's > in other paint schemes. Charlie's reply was that, overall, Pennsy did not > sell well and that he had shelves full of the corrugated passenger car sets. > > The fact that few, if any, of the passenger cars were prototype, did not > seem to concern him. Like Athearn, it seems to be a "one design, paint for > all" operation. Too bad. But the worst is yet to come! > > Kato just announced an "N Scale Cupola Caboose", with two road numbers for > PRR. They do not claim to be prototypic with this release, an actually say > "Although the road numbers we are reproducing may not be an exact scale > miniature of an actual prototype unit, hobbyists can operate them on their > layout with a sense of possible actuality." I really love that last > part..."possible actuality"!!! > > The announcement is at > > http://www.katousa.com/html/N_Cupola_Caboose.htm > > The real kicker is that the mockup in PRR livery shows it as an N8. Does > this look AT ALL like an N8 to you? > > http://www.katousa.com/images/caboose/prr.gif > > Charlie, if you're listening, don't run too many of these in PRR, or you'll > really hate PRR modelers. They will not buy them. My advice: don't even > waste the paint to do a PRR version!!! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: [PRR] Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:07:41 -0400 Hi List, Hope someone out there can help me, ,or at least point me in the right direction. I am in need of drawings of PRR Class P70fbr coaches for a possible model project (commercial). These are the P70 coaches that were modernized in the early 50's for the PRSL and the PRR. They had the port-hole style toilet room window, and came in both clearstory, and the high arch roof version, with mechanical air-conditioning, and commonwealth 4-wheel trucks. If anyone knows of a source of construction prints, and/or arrangement drawings for these cars please let me know. I will gladly pay all repro costs and shipping. Thanks in advance. C. Burnley Jr. PRRT&HS #271 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:23:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] From: Jerry Britton On 8/30/01 11:07 AM, Burnley, Charles (Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com) wrote: > Hope someone out there can help me, ,or at least point me in the > right > direction. > I am in need of drawings of PRR Class P70fbr coaches for a possible > model > project (commercial). Bethlehem Car Works offers P70FBR's in HO scale that are referred to as being really good. What scale are you looking to model in? Rob's site has elevation and floor plans, but not to the nitty gritty level. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:45:11 -0400 I believe that the P70FBR are by Eastern Car Works. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Britton To: Burnley, Charles ; Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] > On 8/30/01 11:07 AM, Burnley, Charles (Charles.Burnley@conectiv.com) wrote: > > > Hope someone out there can help me, ,or at least point me in the > > right > > direction. > > I am in need of drawings of PRR Class P70fbr coaches for a possible > > model > > project (commercial). > > Bethlehem Car Works offers P70FBR's in HO scale that are referred to as > being really good. What scale are you looking to model in? > > Rob's site has elevation and floor plans, but not to the nitty gritty level. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 11:41:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] From: Jerry Britton On 8/30/01 11:45 AM, Dennis @ D & S Hobbies (dennis@onerrave.com) wrote: > I believe that the P70FBR are by Eastern Car Works. > Correct you are! Got many in stock. For some reason my mind always interchanges BCW and ECW!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 09:02:01 -0800 From: Harry Webber Subject: Re: [PRR] This New Kato Offering Will Make You Sick!!! Jerry and list, With all due respect to your ( my)frustration, please consider this important fact. When our client Athearn released their first F-Series release ( the EF15) more than $1.5 million had been invested in tool and die work. They retained the services of the illustrious Greg Martin to make sure they got it "As Close To Real As It Gets". They even had Greg super detail a set of F's and share his aftermarket sources for radio phone antennas, lift rings, etc. on their web site. The cost for tooling up to make a specific prototype is staggering. Even the cost of paint masks can run as high as $25k. The return on investment is marginal. Even so, we as modelers are blessed with a higher level of prototypical fidelity now than ever before in the history of our hobby. Given the frustrations we face as modelers, it would serve us better not to blast the manufacturers that are trying to serve our needs and desires ( like Athearn) but remember the costs associated with the brass imports that do get it right down to the rivets but would make this hobby only accessible to modelers like Warren Buffet, Mike Ovitz and Bill Gates. The following has been a paid political announcement ;-/ Harry Webber Jerry Britton wrote: > Kato, while known for their mechanical quality, often leaves something to be > desired in their prototype representation. > > A few months back I had inquired about the possibility of Kato running E-8's > in other paint schemes. Charlie's reply was that, overall, Pennsy did not > sell well and that he had shelves full of the corrugated passenger car sets. > > The fact that few, if any, of the passenger cars were prototype, did not > seem to concern him. Like Athearn, it seems to be a "one design, paint for > all" operation. Too bad. But the worst is yet to come! > > Kato just announced an "N Scale Cupola Caboose", with two road numbers for > PRR. They do not claim to be prototypic with this release, an actually say > "Although the road numbers we are reproducing may not be an exact scale > miniature of an actual prototype unit, hobbyists can operate them on their > layout with a sense of possible actuality." I really love that last > part..."possible actuality"!!! > > The announcement is at > > http://www.katousa.com/html/N_Cupola_Caboose.htm > > The real kicker is that the mockup in PRR livery shows it as an N8. Does > this look AT ALL like an N8 to you? > > http://www.katousa.com/images/caboose/prr.gif > > Charlie, if you're listening, don't run too many of these in PRR, or you'll > really hate PRR modelers. They will not buy them. My advice: don't even > waste the paint to do a PRR version!!! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > For brass collectors... > http://www.brasstrains.net > Free serving of railroad web sites... > http://www.railfancentral.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:18:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] This New Kato Offering Will Make You Sick!!! From: Jerry Britton On 8/30/01 1:14 PM, Harry Webber (me@HarryWebber.com) wrote: > With all due respect to your ( my)frustration, please consider this important > fact. When our client Athearn released their first F-Series release ( the > EF15) more than $1.5 million had been invested in tool and die work. Go back to the ORIGINAL Athearn F7 units...painted in Tuscan Red five stripe (and still are!). They are more accurate as F units than the cabin being offered by Kato...as an N8. It's like saying a Ford F150 would pass as a VW Beetle!!! I like Kato, but this project deserves to fail!!! Offering it in PRR livery is an insult!!! Did anyone take note that it is also painted Tuscan Red? Uggghh! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:42:09 -0400 From: Steven Hanlon Subject: [PRR] cost to make a scale train the removable parts of a tool are called slides. designing a tool with different slides is nothing new. it does not add incredible cost to the tooling. the high cost of tooling is the cutting of the tools and not the designing of the tooling. The unit would have to have been drawn in some sort of CAD package and this is easily transferred to the designing of the tooling. a CNC machine uses data from a CAD package to cut the tooling. if the vendor does not have a CNC milling machine, the cost increases. product development costs and tooling costs are not the same. salaries and ad agency fees are a total business cost and not easily associated to a single product. i doubt that project manager had only one project to complete. athearn would have an operating budget the size of a defense agency if that were the case. if anyone on this list thinks it costs $1.5M to manufacture a scale model train, i have a great deal on a bridge in brooklyn. -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:39:30 EDT From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] CT 4001 and freight rate book Both have sold to subscribers to PRR-talk. Thank you, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:12:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] This New Kato Offering Will Make You Sick!!! On Thu, 30 Aug 2001, Steven Hanlon wrote: > At 09:02 AM 8/30/01 -0800, you wrote: > >With all due respect to your ( my)frustration, please consider this important > >fact. When our client Athearn released their first F-Series release ( the > >EF15) > >more than $1.5 million had been invested in tool and die work. > > at a unit cost of $25.00, they would have to sell 60,000 units to break > even for this tooling figure. > > >The cost for tooling up to make a specific prototype is staggering. > >Even the cost of paint masks can run as high as $25k. The return on investment > >is marginal. > > $25K for paint masks? where did you come up with this figure? > > i seriously doubt athearn invested $1.5M in tooling for 1 scale model, and > if they did, they will never see a return on this investment. For this scale model, I wouldn't doubt they did, actually. The story behind it is truly an epic, and I don't even know nearly all of it. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:52:47 -0400 From: Steven Hanlon Subject: Re: [PRR] cost to make a scale train At 11:02 AM 8/30/01 -0800, Harry Webber wrote: >My point was not to debate Athearn's specific business practices but simply to >state that the costs associated with prototypical fidelity are considerable. i 100% agree with this statement and will add that compromises must be made to produce and sell the quantity require to recoup the development cost of a model. to be 100% prototypical reduces the market size and it is very difficult to stay in business with this type of direct marketing. many times model companies choose locomotives or rolling stock that is very common and easily labelled for several roads. this increases the market size and also allows the hobbist the chance to afford a quality scale model on a limited budget. >In the future I will restrain myself from coming to the defense of those >who have >worked long and hard to serve the needs of our community. you simply could have stated that the costs of single market items far out-weighs the profitability of such an endeavor. unfortunately, quoting prices that are unrealistic help to inflate the costs of models which serves to only make the CEO of the company more money and does nothing to meet the needs of our community. i still do not understand why a quality plastic shelled scale model should cost more than $50.00 in the HO marketplace. if the total development cost is $750K for the scale model locomotive and 50,000 units total are manufactured, than the cost can easily be at $50 at the retail outlet. a prime example of this is the Proto 2000 series models. when first introduced, the retail price was $75-100. as time goes on, the cost has dropped to $40-65. life-like made the development costs back and has made a decent profit. i did not mean to imply that harry was full of it, but rather that his statement was incorrect. i am glad that people like harry are on this list and are active in not only promoting the hobby, but are helping to pass the hobby to the masses. -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 22:36:29 EDT From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] This New Kato Offering Will Make You Sick!!! To All... Let me reply in context... Knowing a bit of the history of the Athearn/Highliner F-unit from when I first saw the concepts of the unit back in about 1984 from Paul Lubliner at a Modleing meet in the Orange county (CA) area, the project was not only a major project but a personal labor of love for Paul... we now can all reap the soils! Harry Webber writes: > Jerry and list, > > With all due respect to your (my)frustration, please consider this important fact. When our client Athearn released their first F-Series release (the EF15)more than $1.5 million had been invested in tool and die work. They retained the services of the illustrious Greg Martin to make sure they got it "As Close To Real As It Gets".< I have no idea of the production cost but the phone calls from China regarding the paint and lettering alone and the samples that were "life fighted" to me for review must have cost a small fortune. These replicas are tremdous, but I am truely biased. I was hoping, as I am sure that Harry was, that they could be viewed in Altoona at the museum this summer but alas I talked to the curator and they are not on display as of yet because thay do not have the cases to properly display them. BUMMER! >They even had Greg super detail a set of F's and share his aftermarket sources for radio phone antennas, lift rings, etc. on their web site. The cost for tooling up to make a specific prototype is staggering.< The list of detail parts to duplicate these guys is done but I have yet to put it in an email for the Caboose Hobbies in Denver and Dennis let me know if you would like a copy for your shop or any shop for that mater! I will get it done hopefully this weekend! > Even the cost of paint masks can run as high as $25k. The return on investment is marginal. Even so, we as modelers are blessed with a higher level of prototypical fidelity now than ever before in the history of our hobby.< The lettering got to the point where we measured it in scale inches, would anyone like to check it? I would be happy to give you the demnsions! I only wished you all could appreciate how many test shots I reviewed before we put the project to rest... Was I picky, well let's just say I wanted them correct (for all of you)and I had never tried to convert scale demensions to the excercise that I did for this project, but Ed Ryan at Athearn wanted them as perfect as I did... no mistakes. I passed the color chips off to him at Naperville last October just before he flew to China. I have shared these chips with Life Like for their Y-3 project too, but have no way of know wheather they used them or not. >Given the frustrations we face as modelers, it would serve us better not to blast the manufacturers that are trying to serve our needs and desires (like Athearn)but remember the costs associated with the brass imports that do get it right down to the rivets but would make this hobby only accessible to modelers like Warren Buffet, Mike Ovitz and Bill Gates.< NO NEED TO BALST ANYONE! I could add to this list like singer Rod Stuart,actor Gary Coleman, (of which I have had the opportunity to operate trains with both) and the list goes on and on... I would put these Athearn Genesis F-Unit up against any brass model anywhere once the details are added... anyday anywhere, for one thing there is no decal company currently producing the correct width stripe for the PRR EMD F-unit to date... NONE ! Check the stripe width of your decals boys and girls... they are TOO WIDE, but ATHEARNS IS CORRECT! >The following has been a paid political announcement > Harry Webber More read on... +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I can appreciate Jerry's frustration with the upcoming release of the Kato Caboose lettered for Pennsy, but if it helps offset the cost of the tooling of the project so be it, IF, the caboose at least represents an actual caboose used by a railroad and is offered in that road. The hobby can't afford a "mystery" piece... > Jerry Britton wrote: > > > Kato, while known for their mechanical quality, often leaves something to be desired in their prototype representation. They are not alone in this it used to fill the hobby but we are moving forward... >> Charlie's reply was that, overall, Pennsy did not sell well and that he had shelves full of the corrugated passenger car sets.<< Perhaps what Charlie ment was their sales didn't meet their market expectations... But surely no one believes PENNSY doesn't sell... But I have heard other manufacturers say similar statements while they PRR products paid their bills... >> The fact that few, if any, of the passenger cars were prototype, did not seem to concern him. Like Athearn, it seems to be a "one design, paint for all" operation.<< Jerry... the old Globe/Athearn F-unit has sold millions of copies and as the standard for nearly 50 years it was US TRUE MODELERS that made them as accurate as we possiblely could for years. As a matter of fact it helped elevate smaller companies like DETAILS ASSOCIATES, DETAILS WEST, and UTAH PACIFIC to what they are today, I would say that Irv Athearn did us all a favor... truely. And guess what I have a set of undec shells on my work bench and fully intend on doing them up for an article because there are so many modelers out there that still own them and run them flawed or not...I will do them for those "true believers." Just remember without cash from one investement there will be no more investments... So paint the damn things anyway you like just please make sure that there is a real prototype for the caboose and that you paint it in that roadname too... Just my personal thoughts and observations... Greg Martin a PENNSY MODELER ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 22:54:52 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] H-22 Hi All, Does anyone have any H-22 photos with a paint Circle Keystone scheme between the 1940s and Shadow Keystone? I have John Teichmoeller's book, but prefer real photos as opposed to photos of other models. Any help would be appreciated. I am painting 2 cars tomorrow. Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Make Financial Web sites more customer-friendly Get a $10 AMAZON.COM Gift Certificate http://us.click.yahoo.com/nJ2ldA/Dd6CAA/cosFAA/raYplB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] H-22 Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 22:54:52 -0400 Hi All, Does anyone have any H-22 photos with a paint Circle Keystone scheme between the 1940s and Shadow Keystone? I have John Teichmoeller's book, but prefer real photos as opposed to photos of other models. Any help would be appreciated. I am painting 2 cars tomorrow. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:22:35 -0400 From: Steven Hanlon Subject: Re: [PRR] This New Kato Offering Will Make You Sick!!! At 09:02 AM 8/30/01 -0800, you wrote: >With all due respect to your ( my)frustration, please consider this important >fact. When our client Athearn released their first F-Series release ( the >EF15) >more than $1.5 million had been invested in tool and die work. at a unit cost of $25.00, they would have to sell 60,000 units to break even for this tooling figure. >The cost for tooling up to make a specific prototype is staggering. >Even the cost of paint masks can run as high as $25k. The return on investment >is marginal. $25K for paint masks? where did you come up with this figure? i seriously doubt athearn invested $1.5M in tooling for 1 scale model, and if they did, they will never see a return on this investment. -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Lewis J. Matt PhD" Subject: Re: [PRR] This New Kato Offering Will Make You Sick!!! Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 13:09:53 -0400 This is known in the playground as "lets pretend" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Reynolds" To: "Jerry Britton" Cc: "PRR-n_scale" ; "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] This New Kato Offering Will Make You Sick!!! > > "Although the road numbers we are reproducing may not be an exact scale > > miniature of an actual prototype unit, hobbyists can operate them on their > > layout with a sense of possible actuality." I really love that last > > part..."possible actuality"!!! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] This New Kato Offering Will Make You Sick!!! Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 12:49:20 -0400 The tooling Athearn uses for the Genesis F Units was developed by Highliners (Paul Lubliner). The tooling was designed to have interchangable parts to model virtually any F unit ever produced. The point being, the tooling can be used to make LOTS (hundreds?) of very accurate HO replicas. The tooling was NOT designed specifically for the PRR units. The tooling also took over 10 years to complete....but that's a forgotten story. ;o) The same basic shell was used on the PRR F-7A, D&RGW F-7A and NYC F-3A Phase II, all of which we have in the shop - GREAT locos. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----- Original Message ----- From: Steven Hanlon To: Harry Webber ; PRR-Talk Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] This New Kato Offering Will Make You Sick!!! > At 09:02 AM 8/30/01 -0800, you wrote: > >With all due respect to your ( my)frustration, please consider this important > >fact. When our client Athearn released their first F-Series release ( the > >EF15) > >more than $1.5 million had been invested in tool and die work. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 09:34:43 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Broadway Limited Arrives Tomorrow!!! From: Jerry Britton Just a reminder that Harry Webber's new site -- whatever it entails -- arrives tomorrow. The domain placeholder page was replaced a few days ago. A beautiful passenger train with excellent sound now passes across the screen. The Broadway Limited Arrives tomorrow at http://www.thebroadwayltd.com ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 09:56:25 -0400 From: Steven Hanlon Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Arrives Tomorrow!!! At 09:34 AM 8/31/01 -0400, Jerry Britton wrote: >Just a reminder that Harry Webber's new site -- whatever it entails -- >arrives tomorrow. > >The domain placeholder page was replaced a few days ago. A beautiful >passenger train with excellent sound now passes across the screen. > >The Broadway Limited Arrives tomorrow at > > http://www.thebroadwayltd.com what was the url of the other site with the teaser? -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 09:44:15 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Broadway Limited Arrives Tomorrow!!! From: Jerry Britton On 8/31/01 9:56 AM, Steven Hanlon (steveh@mth-railking.com) wrote: > At 09:34 AM 8/31/01 -0400, Jerry Britton wrote: >> Just a reminder that Harry Webber's new site -- whatever it entails -- >> arrives tomorrow. >> >> The domain placeholder page was replaced a few days ago. A beautiful >> passenger train with excellent sound now passes across the screen. >> >> The Broadway Limited Arrives tomorrow at >> >> http://www.thebroadwayltd.com > > what was the url of the other site with the teaser? > http://www.harrywebber.com/secrets.html ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products... http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com For brass collectors... http://www.brasstrains.net Free serving of railroad web sites... http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 08:54:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] I1 Info From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Steve Your query came in while I was working offshore. I went through everything I have and cannot find a photo of I-1 4620. The mechanical drawings for the two-compressor I-1 versions were approved 8-23-29 and were issued 9-10-29. A note reads "This tracing supersedes C70824 and D8851 (the 1-compressor version drawings) which have been made obsolete on account of redesign of piping to provide for two air pumps" and is dated 8-23-29. The last reissue of this drawing was 11-9-45. I have never read of a two-compressor I-1 being converted back to a one-compressor version, but given the Pennsy, it is not out of the realm of possibility, and one should never say never. If your photo shows the steam supply line running only from the steam dome down to the left side compressor, then the probability is that there was no left side compressor. All I-1 photos I have of the right side show a pipe with a valve emerging from the dome and disappearing straight down into the boiler jacket (I should remember what this pipe went to, but don't), so there was no steam source for the right side compressor from the right side of the dome. None of my photos show a steam line running under the belly of the boiler as Gary suggested might have happened. If they did not convert 4620 back to a one-compressor version, then the PSYIII photo was miscaptioned. As this is not an uncommon occurrence (I found another example last night while looking for photos of 4620) you are safe with a one-compressor version until someone comes up with a glossy photo showing the right side at a comparable date. Bill Nixon - do you have any photos of 4620 in your collection? Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: "Steve Hoxie" >To: "PRR-talk" >Subject: [PRR] I1 Info >Date: Sun, 26 Aug, 2001, 21:59 > > Okay steam fans, here is a tough question for you. I have a photo of the > fireman's side of I1 4620 which I purchased from Bob Lorenz some years ago. > It is dated 1954. Pennsy Steam Years Vol. III has a photo of the > engineman's side of 4620 captioned 1951. Now the question: The PSYIII > photo (right side) obviously shows the right side air pump, which many I1's > were equipped with, with its steam supply line coming over the top of the > boiler down to the pump just ahead of the firebox. Normally this line comes > from a T in the line which supplies steam to the left side pump, originating > from the left side of the steam dome. The 1954 photo (left side) clearly > shows the steam supply line from the steam dome to the left side pump, but > there is no T to supply steam to a pump on the right side. Was there a > different originating point for the right side steam supply to the air pump? > Was the right side pump removed between 1951 and 1954? Does anyone have a > photo of 4620? > > One of my Decs is a PFM model detailed and painted to represent 4620, which > I selected just because I did not think there was a pump on the right side. > > Gary? Don? I realize this is a pretty obscure detail to question. Thanks > for your help. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KLJURY@aol.com Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 17:53:46 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR 643 The world's only operating PRR steam loco 0-6-0 $#643 is once again running all weekend at Williams Grove, Pa. Earlier this yeat plans for a june 100th birthday celebration had to be cancelled due to two broken staybolts which have since been repaired. This past Monday an unannounced vintage freight train was run with the 643, a Ma & Pa boxcar, flatcar, tank car & N6b Cabin car. Gov. Ridge sent a citation & today state Rep Jery Naylor presented an official state commendation to the Williams Grove Historical Steam Engine Assn honoring their preseervation work & the 100th birthday of the 643. As in the past engineer training sessions ran from Wed-Fri. Rides will begin Sat thru Mon so come on out & wish old 643 a happy 100th! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Tom von Trott" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR 643 Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 22:20:43 -0400 Sorry I did not get better info out to the group on this, I'm a member of 643's crew, and things for the 100th birthday sort of fell together at the last minute. The freight was run just for the fun of it, and was also sort of stuck together at the last minute. We where not really sure how the freight cars would do since they had not been moved as a train in quite a few years. It went off pretty good, and now that we have done it hopefully we might do it again in the near future. Unfortunately as was stated in the previous message, the broken stays sort of threw a wrench into our plans for June, which were originally far better thought out then our recent events. But either way we have had a pretty good 100th birthday. A problem with part of the reverse linkage caused us a few problems on Thursday, but besides that it's been a good week for 643. If anyone from the group comes out be sure to say hi to me, I'll probabably be on the loco either running or fireing. PS The group has a website now, at www.williamsgrovesteam.org Tom von Trott -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com] On Behalf Of KLJURY@aol.com Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 5:54 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR 643 The world's only operating PRR steam loco 0-6-0 $#643 is once again running all weekend at Williams Grove, Pa. Earlier this yeat plans for a june 100th birthday celebration had to be cancelled due to two broken staybolts which have since been repaired. This past Monday an unannounced vintage freight train was run with the 643, a Ma & Pa boxcar, flatcar, tank car & N6b Cabin car. Gov. Ridge sent a citation & today state Rep Jery Naylor presented an official state commendation to the Williams Grove Historical Steam Engine Assn honoring their preseervation work & the 100th birthday of the 643. As in the past engineer training sessions ran from Wed-Fri. Rides will begin Sat thru Mon so come on out & wish old 643 a happy 100th! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with this list, please visit http://lists.dsop.com. !!NEXT MESSAGE!!