From: "Andrew S. Miller" Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 10:09:38 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Cedco in June Has anyone read the caption of the Cedco PRR calendar for June? It claims to be a picture of the "Admiral" in Frankford Jct. But it is clearly all Congo Budd equipment! AFAIK these cars never ran on the Admiral. The Admiral had no use for that many day coaches. At least 6 are show fwd of the Budd Diner. Am I imagining things or is this a picture of the Morning Congressional in 1953 when it still ran with all new purpose-built Budd equipment? I claim the Morning Congo because of the long shadows leaning West at Frankford Junction with the train Northbound. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 10:09:38 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Cedco in June Has anyone read the caption of the Cedco PRR calendar for June? It claims to be a picture of the "Admiral" in Frankford Jct. But it is clearly all Congo Budd equipment! AFAIK these cars never ran on the Admiral. The Admiral had no use for that many day coaches. At least 6 are show fwd of the Budd Diner. Am I imagining things or is this a picture of the Morning Congressional in 1953 when it still ran with all new purpose-built Budd equipment? I claim the Morning Congo because of the long shadows leaning West at Frankford Junction with the train Northbound. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 11:04:47 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Philadelphia Division - Division Office Location? From: Jerry Britton Since the downtown Philadelphia offices were in the heart of the Philadelphia Terminal Division, one cannot assume that the Philadelphia Division offices were also located there. So, where were they located... Harrisburg maybe? I know the PRR had some office buildings adjacent to the passenger station. One was used as a crew's barracks, but I do not know of the use of the others. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BlockTruck@aol.com Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:24:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Philadelphia Division - Division Office Location? In a message dated 6/1/01 11:10:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > So, where were they located. When I was on the Phila. Div., they were in 30th Street Station, although I don't remember which floor. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Philadelphia Division - Division Office Location? Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:50:46 -0400 List: And the Phila. Regional Sales Office in 30th Street had the original Grif Teller Calendar Painting of the S1. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 11:24 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Philadelphia Division - Division Office Location? > In a message dated 6/1/01 11:10:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > > So, where were they located. > > When I was on the Phila. Div., they were in 30th Street Station, although I > don't remember which floor. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 11:55:21 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] (PRR)Dallee Electronics >Group, > >Has anyone used the sound card from Dallee electronics for the T1? If so how >good is it? Etc. > >Thanks in advance > >Sam Vastano Sam, Dallee is like Bowser...years behind the times and totally unwilling to admit it. That said, the T-1 card is the best on the market (OK the ONLY one on the market). Since I run DCC, I've looked at it from that standpoint. Here are the problems, especially when compared to soundtraxx: 1) Its HUGE - just barely fits in an HO T-1 tender 2) Circuitry is such that only one sound plays at a time...blow the wistle while the bell is ringing, and the bell cuts out (and so does the chuff) 3) Cost - well, not a problem, but by the time you add a decoder, its about equal to soundtraxx, but inferior in design/sound. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 14:49:08 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Rivarossi & Walthers From: Jerry Britton A few months ago, the exclusive distribution agreement between Rivarossi and Model Expo ceased and all unsold inventories were returned to Italy (according to Model Expo). Yesterday, Walthers announced that it had entered into a new exclusive distributorship agreement with Rivarossi. Sometime this summer, both HO and N Rivarossi products should become available again. Rivarossi offers an extensive line of PRR GG-1's and the S-2 switcher. In addition, a few of the passenger cars are PRR prototypic. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 15:29:35 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] No subject was specified. Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 09:01:14 -0700 From: Paul Catapano Subject: Car Weight Wouldn't it be better to have a uniform weight for cars of a given length (40'ers weight so much and 50'ers weight so much) to simplify making a weight profile for each train as it leaves your yard (NMRA weight RP's). So you could more easily assign motive power and helpers if needed? Cars with different weight but being of the same length might complicate this issue, ASSuming this is an issue to any of you. Paul Catapano Burbank, Ca. Paul- Not sure I understand your question. That is the way it works. I use a basic weight of 1 oz. plus 1/2 oz. per inch of car length. Thus, all 40' cars would weigh the same. This has been the standard for most of my 40+ years in this hobby. Check NMRA standards for more info. Regards, Eddie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 15:32:45 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] No subject was specified. Paul Catapano wrote: > Naturally I deleted all prior messages so I can't figure what the hell I > was responding to, but I thought I understood someone to say that they > ran their cars at ANY weight as long as the cars exhibited good running > characteristics. I took them to imply that if the car tracked good at > two oz's they ran it along with cars of the same length that might weigh > 4 oz's. > > Paul Catapano > Burbank, Ca. Most cars will run fine at "out of box" weight if they are running alone or with a few cars of the same weight. Problems can occur when you have a long train of say 15 cars. The heavier cars have a tendency to derail the lighter cars, especially on curves. The xtra weight seems to help a lot. Eddie Dr. Edmond L. Freed Delray Beach, FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 15:48:05 -0400 From: Jeff Warner Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi & Walthers Jerry:

Any idea whether parts will also become available thru Walthers?  What about new stuff like the HO C&O Allegheny that was announced and then forgotten? (Please forgive that it is a C&O loco and not a Pennsy -- the parts I'm looking for are for a PRR loco).

Thanks,

Jeff Warner

Jerry Britton wrote:
A few months ago, the exclusive distribution agreement between Rivarossi and
Model Expo ceased and all unsold inventories were returned to Italy
(according to Model Expo).

Yesterday, Walthers announced that it had entered into a new exclusive
distributorship agreement with Rivarossi.

Sometime this summer, both HO and N Rivarossi products should become
available again.

Rivarossi offers an extensive line of PRR GG-1's and the S-2 switcher. In
addition, a few of the passenger cars are PRR prototypic.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    

On 6/1/01 3:48 PM, Jeff Warner (jwarner@ptd.net) wrote:

> Any idea whether parts will also become available thru Walthers?  What about
> new stuff like the HO C&O Allegheny that was announced and then forgotten?
> (Please forgive that it is a C&O loco and not a Pennsy -- the parts I'm
> looking for are for a PRR loco).
> 
Probably a safe bet that parts will be available as well, though the press
release did not specifically say so. Walthers already carries a ton of
parts; why not those from Rivarossi?

Can't comment on the C&O loco.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
Free serving of railroad web sites
    http://www.railfancentral.com


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From: "Andrews, Ted" 
Subject: RE: [PRR] Rivarossi & Walthers
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 16:02:40 -0400 

Jeff, Jerry, and the gang:
 
If Rivarossi does come out the the C&O Allegheny, that may be a good sign
for PRR fans. Rivarossi has not come out with a new steam loco for some time
and the Allegheny may be the first of several new steam engines. Who knows
an M-1, J-1 or a T-1 would be prime candidates in super-detailed plastic.
 
Ted Andrews

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Warner [mailto:jwarner@ptd.net]
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 2:48 PM
To: Jerry Britton
Cc: PRR-Talk LIST
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi & Walthers


Jerry:

Any idea whether parts will also become available thru Walthers?  What about
new stuff like the HO C&O Allegheny that was announced and then forgotten?
(Please forgive that it is a C&O loco and not a Pennsy -- the parts I'm
looking for are for a PRR loco).

Thanks,

Jeff Warner

Jerry Britton wrote:


A few months ago, the exclusive distribution agreement between Rivarossi and
Model Expo ceased and all unsold inventories were returned to Italy
(according to Model Expo).

Yesterday, Walthers announced that it had entered into a new exclusive
distributorship agreement with Rivarossi.

Sometime this summer, both HO and N Rivarossi products should become
available again.

Rivarossi offers an extensive line of PRR GG-1's and the S-2 switcher. In
addition, a few of the passenger cars are PRR prototypic.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS    jerry@pennsyrr.com
 
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi & Walthers
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 16:18:53 -0400

Jerry and list:

I just asked Walthers and got a reply from Tom Schmidt that the "details of
the agreement are still being worked out" and the details will be posted on
Walther's website when they become available. See www.trains.com for
comments re: the C&O Allegheny and its working butterfly firebox doors!?

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Britton" 
To: "Jeff Warner" 
Cc: "PRR-Talk LIST" 
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi & Walthers


> On 6/1/01 3:48 PM, Jeff Warner (jwarner@ptd.net) wrote:
>
> > Any idea whether parts will also become available thru Walthers?  What
about
> > new stuff like the HO C&O Allegheny that was announced and then
forgotten?
> > (Please forgive that it is a C&O loco and not a Pennsy -- the parts I'm
> > looking for are for a PRR loco).
> >
> Probably a safe bet that parts will be available as well, though the press
> release did not specifically say so. Walthers already carries a ton of
> parts; why not those from Rivarossi?
>
> Can't comment on the C&O loco.
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
> Free serving of railroad web sites
>     http://www.railfancentral.com
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
> "listserv@dsop.com".
>
>


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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 20:04:15 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Cedco in June

Andy & List,
Sure lools like The Congrestional to me. . . and I do believe your're correct 
in guessing that its the AM Congo by the looks of those tell tale long 
shadows.
But hey ! ! With Cedco. . . we're lucky they even identified the fact that 
there 
are trains in the picture ! ! We're also lucky that this is one of the 
pictures they 
haven't used at least three or four times before in past Pennsy calendars ! ! 
!
I'm sorry. . . I'll stop now and put a way the soap box.
Jon S.


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Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 05:53:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joseph Andrews 
Subject: [PRR] cat pan

While sitting around with some friends the other
evening, we got to talking about how everyone has
their own special vocabulary. I mentioned that when
most people hear the words "cat" and "pan" they think
of a litter box for a pet. I, on the other hand, think
"catenary" and "pantograph". These terms then had to
be explained to our company. My friend who is totally
non-railroad oriented (but otherwise pretty
intelligent) then asked a question that I had never
really thought about. What do they use to lubricate
the point of contact between the cat and the pan? How
come the wire doesn't saw thru the pan in a short
time?
I'm sure this has a simple answer but as I said, I
never really gave it any thought.
Joe

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From: bobsin@nac.net
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:08:12 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] cat pan

Joseph asked about wear in pantographs; aren't some (all?) of the 
pantograph contact surfaces made of graphite or similar, and 
replaced frequently?  I would think that wear of the contact wire 
would be the greater concern, since it's a lot harder to replace the 
wire.  (And replacement of contact wire seems quite frequent 
nonetheless; it's common to seee shiny copper contact wires 
newly installed, while the messenger and catenary wires remain 
weathered green.)


John Bobsin




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Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:28:35 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi & Walthers
From: Fred G Rea 

Will Walthers be willing to sell individual passenger cars?  I am
revolted at the idea of having to buy a set with a PRR Vistadome to get a
baggage, coach, or diner.

The vista dome proves a point.  They will have a lot of PRR stuff, if you
accept just PRR paint jobs or lettering on every thing they offer.  At
least Bachman started with PRR but then offered cross dressed decor for
other roads.  I am suprised there has not been a War Bonnet GG1 marketed.
 Even worse, they would probably sell! 

An insult to any PRR fan 

Fred Rea
________________________________________________________________
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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 11:03:11 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi & Walthers

In a message dated 6/2/01 7:29:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fredrea@juno.com 
writes:

<< I am suprised there has not been a War Bonnet GG1 marketed.
  Even worse, they would probably sell!  >>

They did market a Milwaukee Road little joe paint scheme through IHC !  And 
yes, it did sell ! ! ! 
Jon S.

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From: Mark Bej 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Cab Signals/ PRR-CB&Q Run Through
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 101 12:34:15 -0400 (EDT)

David Hopson scribit:
> 
> Hello List, 
>     I was just watching a video tape of the PRR in the 1960s and I saw
> something in the footage that I never notice before. It shows a CB&Q
> GP30 leading a PRR freight headed east at Valparaso on the mainline.
>     Can someone tell me how this is possible? I thought PRR units must
> lead off-road power because of the cab signals. I even slowed down the
> tape to see if maybe there was a PRR signal box under the engineer's
> front window. Anyone know about this?
>       The tape is(Green Frog) "Penn Central" Vol.1-Tape One.
> Don't let the name fool you. Lots of pre merger PRR shots. 

Dave,
the Fort Wayne main did not have cab signals.

(I'm making a 400-plus mile generalization; if there were snippets that
did that I'm missing, someone please let me know.)

Cab signals extended west on the _Panhandle_ as far as Indianapolis (!),
and all of this was, of course, "superfluous" to Conrail.

-- 
Mark

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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 14:07:00 -0400

Zak:

Re: Your "can of worms", I think which is closer to PRR depends on which
specific car you are talking about and in what scale. For example, the
Rivarossi smooth side "tail car" in both HO and N is an almost exact replica
of the "Mountain View and "Tower View" as used on the "Broadway Limited".
The Bachmann Spectrum coach in HO is an excellent replica of a PRR P70, and
the combine is definitely PRR as well. In N scale, the Bachmann cars have no
prototype, but Model Power (from Lima) imports models of PRR P70's and
combines. But, the Model Power P70 in N looks nothing like the Bachmann P70
in HO, you say.  They are separated by about 30 years, with the MP car
representing the P70 as built and Bachmann as it appeared post-WW II.

Here is where the four and six wheel trucks enter the picture. The
P70-series cars were built with six wheel trucks that were replaced with
four wheel trucks as they were updated and modernized.

Rivarossi's cars all represent specific prototypes, but not all from the
same builder or railroad.

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: "Zak" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 1:36 PM
Subject: [PRR] Rivarossi cars


> Re Mr. Rea's mail about the subject cars, I don't know how Walther's plans
> to sell them, but Rivarossi does make unpainted '20 heavyweight and '30
> lightweight cars.
> I know 'cause I got a bunch of 'em about two years ago from the Model Expo
> folks when they were on sale.
>
> Question (and I hope this doesn't open a can of worms):  which are
actually
> more prototypical cars for the PRR, the Rivarossi or the Bachmann?  I seem
> to remember reading somewhere that the PRR used 4-wheel trucks instead of
> 6-wheel.  Could someone give me some guidance on this?
>
> Zak
>
>
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> "listserv@dsop.com".
>
>


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From: "Zak" 
Subject: [PRR] Passenger cars
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 14:28:56 -0400

Gregg,

Many thanks for your help.  I've got a batch of unpainted HO Riv '30 cars
that I want to make a 'static' - kinda like on the mantle - display of, and
I want to get it somewhere near right.
Have a diner, a couple of coach cars, a sleeper, and others.
Am perusing the Walthers site now for parts for my totally illegal [ ;-) ]
F7A passenger to go with it.
Hey...if Mantua can do it, I can, too!  Chuckle, chuckle, guffaw.

Zak


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Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 14:52:12 -0400
From: Bennett Levin 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Passenger cars

It is rather interesting to read Blardone's article on wartime
conversions in the new Keystone to see how manye "conventional" Pullmans
were used by the PRR. The pictures are excellent. It surely widens the
scope of what is prototypical especially those who model late 40's to
early 60's.It widens the scope of applicability for non-P-70 cars.(Even
some NYC).

Zak wrote:
> 
> Gregg,
> 
> Many thanks for your help.  I've got a batch of unpainted HO Riv '30 cars
> that I want to make a 'static' - kinda like on the mantle - display of, and
> I want to get it somewhere near right.
> Have a diner, a couple of coach cars, a sleeper, and others.
> Am perusing the Walthers site now for parts for my totally illegal [ ;-) ]
> F7A passenger to go with it.
> Hey...if Mantua can do it, I can, too!  Chuckle, chuckle, guffaw.
> 
> Zak
> 
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> "listserv@dsop.com".

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From: PRRMAN@aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 16:26:42 EDT
Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Cedco in June


--part1_f5.ac2534c.284aa602_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 6/1/01 7:13:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
asmiller@mitre.org writes:


> It
> claims to be a picture of the "Admiral" in Frankford Jct.  But it is
> clearly all Congo Budd equipment!        
> 
Andy, you beat me to it.  No way that equipment would have been on
the Admiral on that date (maybe ever).  At first I thought Cedco might
have gotten his numbers mixed up, inadvertently dropping the "1" from the 
Congressional's number and thereby getting the Admiral's number.  
But I looked them up, and they're totally different.
  
   But, while I had the December 1952 Guide out, I looked at schedules.
At the time, the eastward Admiral left North Phila at 10:16am, and the
Morning Cong close behind him, at 10:27am.  Now we're getting somewhere!
     My scenario:  the photographer was out there, armed with only a public
TT .  He's standing there at Shore, expecting the Admiral.  The Admiral's a
few minutes late and they put the Congressional ahead of him. Voila!
"Admiral" gets written on back of the photograph.  Photographer
in 1953 didn't know any better, and, 47 years later, how is Cedco
supposed to know it's wrong?

     He made a similar goof on last year's calendar (can't remember
exactly what it was now) but I like his PRR calendars anyway!

Rich Copeland    
Jamison, PA
 

--part1_f5.ac2534c.284aa602_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 6/1/01 7:13:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 

asmiller@mitre.org writes:





It

claims to be a picture of the "Admiral" in Frankford Jct.  But it is

clearly all Congo Budd equipment!        



Andy, you beat me to it.  No way that equipment would have been on

the Admiral on that date (maybe ever).  At first I thought Cedco might

have gotten his numbers mixed up, inadvertently dropping the "1" from the 

Congressional's number and thereby getting the Admiral's number.  

But I looked them up, and they're totally different.

  

   But, while I had the December 1952 Guide out, I looked at schedules.

At the time, the eastward Admiral left North Phila at 10:16am, and the

Morning Cong close behind him, at 10:27am.  Now we're getting somewhere!

     My scenario:  the photographer was out there, armed with only a public

TT .  He's standing there at Shore, expecting the Admiral.  The Admiral's a

few minutes late and they put the Congressional ahead of him. Voila!

"Admiral" gets written on back of the photograph.  Photographer

in 1953 didn't know any better, and, 47 years later, how is Cedco

supposed to know it's wrong?



     He made a similar goof on last year's calendar (can't remember

exactly what it was now) but I like his PRR calendars anyway!



Rich Copeland    

Jamison, PA

 

--part1_f5.ac2534c.284aa602_boundary--

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From: PRRMAN@aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 16:26:42 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR-FAX] Cedco in June

In a message dated 6/1/01 7:13:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
asmiller@mitre.org writes:


> It
> claims to be a picture of the "Admiral" in Frankford Jct.  But it is
> clearly all Congo Budd equipment!        
> 
Andy, you beat me to it.  No way that equipment would have been on
the Admiral on that date (maybe ever).  At first I thought Cedco might
have gotten his numbers mixed up, inadvertently dropping the "1" from the 
Congressional's number and thereby getting the Admiral's number.  
But I looked them up, and they're totally different.
  
   But, while I had the December 1952 Guide out, I looked at schedules.
At the time, the eastward Admiral left North Phila at 10:16am, and the
Morning Cong close behind him, at 10:27am.  Now we're getting somewhere!
     My scenario:  the photographer was out there, armed with only a public
TT .  He's standing there at Shore, expecting the Admiral.  The Admiral's a
few minutes late and they put the Congressional ahead of him. Voila!
"Admiral" gets written on back of the photograph.  Photographer
in 1953 didn't know any better, and, 47 years later, how is Cedco
supposed to know it's wrong?

     He made a similar goof on last year's calendar (can't remember
exactly what it was now) but I like his PRR calendars anyway!

Rich Copeland    
Jamison, PA
 


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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 18:01:27 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi & Walthers

In a message dated 6/2/01 9:29:00 AM Central Daylight Time, fredrea@juno.com 
writes (re warbonnet GG1's):

<< Even worse, they would probably sell! >>

Take the probably out.

Bob Zoeller

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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 18:25:42 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars

In a message dated 6/2/01 1:09:15 PM Central Daylight Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net 
writes:

<<  The
 P70-series cars were built with six wheel trucks that were replaced with
 four wheel trucks as they were updated and modernized. >>

I am not aware of any P70's built with six-wheel trucks, but I never say 
never.  The PB70's and the D78 diners ( also by Bachmann) had six-wheel 
trucks. You may be confusing the conversion of the modernized P70's to 
Commonwealth 4-wheel trucks from the Pennsy 4-wheel truck style(which I am 
too tired to look up) .  The Bachmann P70's have the Pennsy truck and the ECW 
kits for the P70FAR have the Commonwealth truck. Both prototypical.The 
Rivarossi 12-1 Pullman heavyweight, as far as it goes, represents the most 
common Pullman on the Pennsy as well as other roads. Their other HW Pullman 
in PRR livery is fictional.

In addition to the observation, the Rivarossi 10-6 lightweight Pullman is 
acceptable for a Pennsy Rapids car (though I can never quite find the exact 
window arrangement in plans) and the duplex sleeper is a model of a 1938 
Creek car with the skirts removed as they were after WWII.  I  (incorrectly) 
use it to represent a 1948 Creek car  in my 1948 Broadway until I get a 
chance to replace it ( I will probably pick the Cedar Creek as the new car to 
model , appropriate for our club, the Cedar Creek Central). The ECW 4-4-2 
lightweight can be used to model  a Pennsy 1938  Imperial car. 

Bob Zoeller

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From: VVA249@aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 23:23:32 EDT
Subject: [PRR] Vistadomes?

    Pennsy Vistadomes? 
    RailKing & Lionel offer them in 3 rail. 
    If it bothers you - don't buy it!
    Actually, it's usually the guys who like other roads who usually have to 
"Grin and bear it" MTH Trains offers Pennsy Passenger cars painted in almost 
everybody elses road name; Lionel offers a nice PRR E-6 (With an oval 
builder's plate) lettered B&O or ATSF!
    As a true SPF, I've had more than one "Ooopsey" in my life. When I first 
started building HO scale models, I applied Model Airplane building 
techniques to produce an absolutely gorgeous tar paper roof on an old "Red 
Ball" R-50b, only to learn that it was an all steel car.
    I later painstakingly lettered a Single Sheathed box car "WAG" for the 
"Sole Leather Line" - only to learn that the car - which I had photographed - 
was far to new for my steam locos. (Same is true of the Buffalo Creek and 
Gauley - with that big "Sack-O-Wheat" herald)
    When I started in "O" scale I got a great deal on a Max Gray brass  
"A.A.R. box car" I thought it was an X-29; spent years trying to match it to 
a photo - finally painted and decaled it "Beano" and decided not to worry 
about it.
    Fairly recently, old enough to know better, I had a weak "SPF" moment at 
a train show: I bought a 2 bay Weaver "O" scale offset side hopper, lettered 
PRR, even though I'd already read "the book of Teichmoeller" (in installment 
form - before it was issued as a book) - and knew that this was a "never was" 
car for the PRR - (It's now in "basic black" and sports a very large Erie 
Diamond)
    Doctors bury their mistakes - we can just repaint them; each of us has 
their own level of tolerance.
    I don't own a dome car - because, I think, it would be to new for my 
steamers, but I now own a gorgeous extruded aluminum model of the "Silver 
Rapids" Pennsy's contribution to the California Zephyr. 
    I'm not sure how correct it is - I really don't want to know; I've liked 
the car, ever since I first saw the original 35, or so years ago.

Dick Ross,
Cleveland.

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From: "Zak" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars
Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 23:25:54 -0400

;-)  I REALLY meant I didn't want to open a can of worms on this, but thanks
for the ino.

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars


> In a message dated 6/2/01 1:09:15 PM Central Daylight Time,
mahlkov@gtcom.net
> writes:
>
> <<  The
>  P70-series cars were built with six wheel trucks that were replaced with
>  four wheel trucks as they were updated and modernized. >>
>
> I am not aware of any P70's built with six-wheel trucks, but I never say
> never.  The PB70's and the D78 diners ( also by Bachmann) had six-wheel
> trucks. You may be confusing the conversion of the modernized P70's to
> Commonwealth 4-wheel trucks from the Pennsy 4-wheel truck style(which I am
> too tired to look up) .  The Bachmann P70's have the Pennsy truck and the
ECW
> kits for the P70FAR have the Commonwealth truck. Both prototypical.The
> Rivarossi 12-1 Pullman heavyweight, as far as it goes, represents the most
> common Pullman on the Pennsy as well as other roads. Their other HW
Pullman
> in PRR livery is fictional.
>
> In addition to the observation, the Rivarossi 10-6 lightweight Pullman is
> acceptable for a Pennsy Rapids car (though I can never quite find the
exact
> window arrangement in plans) and the duplex sleeper is a model of a 1938
> Creek car with the skirts removed as they were after WWII.  I
(incorrectly)
> use it to represent a 1948 Creek car  in my 1948 Broadway until I get a
> chance to replace it ( I will probably pick the Cedar Creek as the new car
to
> model , appropriate for our club, the Cedar Creek Central). The ECW 4-4-2
> lightweight can be used to model  a Pennsy 1938  Imperial car.
>
> Bob Zoeller
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> "listserv@dsop.com".
>


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Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 01:59:54 -0400 (EDT)
From: Derrick J Brashear 
Subject: [PRR] some PRR documents available, more to come...

If you look at
http://prr.dementia.org/documents
you will find a CT290 and a 1932 Williamsport Division ETT in PDF form.
I have quite a few more ETTs to follow, as well as 2 rule books, and 2
track charts I recently picked up covering a nice chunk of Lines West
territory. 

I would like some comments on 2 things (by private email, please):

-How are the PDFs for viewing? I've been experimenting with various
optimizations for both space and quality, and the balance these 2
documents have I think is reasonable, but I have rasters I can try to
retune and regenerate the PDFs if necessary. The CT290 supercedes an
earlier PDF of same I made available as this one is better cropped and
optimized. (The old one can be found at ftp://ftp.dementia.org/pub/prr)

-What format do people think is reasonable for track charts? Obviously
they're long strips, which is pretty impractical for most if not all
software viewing solutions. Suggestions appreciated.

Currently these are available only via this interface; I may explore some
way of optimizing for people with low-bandwidth network links after
there's more material there.

-D



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Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 08:49:44 -0400
From: Stephen Bartlett 
Subject: [PRR] Re: cat pan

I can add a bit about cat and pans, but specific to the 600 volt DC cat
on the Niagara Junction Ry.  During my NY Central days I spent a lot of
time in Niagara Falls on EE work for the NJ, which was partly owned by
the Central.  The pans had a load of graphite grease in a recess between
the two contact surfaces.  All the double-shoe "model" pans I have seen
have an open space between the shoes, but these were solid, so there was
a place to apply the graphite.
  
	I also learned that the company had decided that their pan size was
optimal:  With a smaller shoe size, electrical faults tended to burn up
the shoes, and with larger shoes, faults tended more to burn through the
wire.  A lot of the NJ's operations were close to rocking speed, which
tended to even out any groove wear.  

	I _think_ the cat on the NE Corridor has a bit of side-to-side
alignment, which will also spread the wear.

Steve Bartlett
		
PRR-Talk wrote:
> 

> Subject: cat pan
> From: "Joseph Andrews" 
> Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 05:53:23 -0700 (PDT)
> 
> While sitting around with some friends the other
> evening, we got to talking about how everyone has
> their own special vocabulary. I mentioned that when
> most people hear the words "cat" and "pan" they think
> of a litter box for a pet. I, on the other hand, think
> "catenary" and "pantograph". These terms then had to
> be explained to our company. My friend who is totally
> non-railroad oriented (but otherwise pretty
> intelligent) then asked a question that I had never
> really thought about. What do they use to lubricate
> the point of contact between the cat and the pan? How
> come the wire doesn't saw thru the pan in a short
> time?
> I'm sure this has a simple answer but as I said, I
> never really gave it any thought.
> Joe
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Re: [PRR] cat pan
> From: 
> Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:08:12 -0400
> 
> Joseph asked about wear in pantographs; aren't some (all?) of the
> pantograph contact surfaces made of graphite or similar, and
> replaced frequently?  I would think that wear of the contact wire
> would be the greater concern, since it's a lot harder to replace the
> wire.  (And replacement of contact wire seems quite frequent
> nonetheless; it's common to seee shiny copper contact wires
> newly installed, while the messenger and catenary wires remain
> weathered green.)
> 
> John Bobsin
>



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Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 09:06:55 -0400
From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" 
Subject: [PRR] No subject was specified.

Hey Work crews:

I'm still digging up the History on the yards etc in Columbia Pa,  a
little
hard , because I;m in SC..

But the columbia Historic Preservation Society has a web page and some
old
RR people on the staff, and 120 yrs of old newpapers and picture on
Microfilm...

The Page is www.columbiahistoric.rtide.com/RAILROAD.htm...  I belive I
have
located the person who has all the historic files from the RR,  my
brother
lives in Columbia and will contact him... I 'm willing to fly there and
copy
any thing they let me and load it to a web site or CD...


Thomas-
I also model the C & PD and Columbia. However, the page you list for the

Historic Society does not seem to work now. Do you know of the correct
page?
I would greatly appreciate a response.
Thanks.
Eddie

Dr. Edmond L. Freed
PRRT&HS # 156
Modeling the C&PD in HO



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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 09:24:51 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars

In a message dated 6/2/01 5:32:57 PM Central Daylight Time, I wrote:

<< Their  (Rivarossi) other HW Pullman 
 in PRR livery is fictional. >>

As several have pointed out, I had a senior moment.  I forgot the 10 section 
car was Bachmann. Still fictional, just a different maker.

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 09:39:39 -0400
Subject: [PRR] PRR Vista domes
From: Fred G Rea 

I started a thread with my Rivarossi varnish rant.  Ok, I accept the "if
you don't like it, don't buy it" comment.  My original point was offering
the cars only in sets.  This forces me to buy it if I want some of the
more appropriate cars.

Also, I have to admit, the rest of  "set A", the baggage, coach & diner
are probably not "true" PRR either.  The are a heck of a lot closer to
the mark however.

As for tarpaper on your R50b roof.  That was an honest mistake by a
person learning our hobby, not a major manufacturer.  I am sure they know
better.  They could not have come up with there RPO and Obs dies without
plenty of PRR advice.  Then someone in marketing says two things.  First,
"Hey lets do all the cars in all the road names".  Second, "Hey some of
these don't sell too well, lets put them in sets so they have to buy the
loosers to get what they want".

Now to divert the issue to my other big peeve:  I still remember when I
bought an Athern heavy weight pullman, took it home and sat down to do a
nice interior in it. Whoa!  The sides are all messed up. I don't mind
that it was only 8 sections, we all do selective compression.  But,
making both the aisle windows on both sides at the same ends and the
restroom windows the same is the pits.  Some one designing it never rode
or saw plans for a 12-1 Pullman.  Now don't say that 12-1s were a long
time ago.  I bought the car in 1960.  Anyone old enough to work on the
design of that model could have, and should have, been clued in.  The big
problem, that car is still being made from those dies 41 years later!

Fred Rea


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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 10:15:44 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars

Bob,

The diagrams for the 10-6 are on Rob's website and I am sure you meant to say 
the Duplex car is a representation of the "BROOK" series cars, correct and we 
all know which Brook series car is the best to model ... #^)

Greg Martin 

Bob wrote:
<< the Rivarossi 10-6 lightweight Pullman is acceptable for a Pennsy Rapids 
car (though I can never quite find the exact window arrangement in plans) and 
the duplex sleeper is a model of a 1938 Creek car with the skirts removed as 
they were after W.W.II.  I  (incorrectly) use it to represent a 1948 Creek 
car  in my 1948 Broadway until I get a chance to replace it (I will probably 
pick the Cedar Creek as the new car to model, appropriate for our club, the 
Cedar Creek Central). >>

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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 10:38:53 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Vista domes

In a message dated 6/3/01 6:37:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fredrea@juno.com 
writes:

<< Some one designing it never rode
 or saw plans for a 12-1 Pullman.  Now don't say that 12-1s were a long
 time ago.  I bought the car in 1960.  Anyone old enough to work on the
 design of that model could have, and should have, been clued in.  The big
 problem, that car is still being made from those dies 41 years later!
  >>

Weather they rode the great Pullman Fleat or not. . . or even knew what a 
Pullman was.  I'm hear to tell you. From past experience at working at a 
major manufacturer of modell railroad equipment. The bottom line is that
both sides where made the same to save on the high costs of tool and die
work.
Jon S.

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From: JONS6755@aol.com
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 10:38:53 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Vista domes

In a message dated 6/3/01 6:37:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, fredrea@juno.com 
writes:

<< Some one designing it never rode
 or saw plans for a 12-1 Pullman.  Now don't say that 12-1s were a long
 time ago.  I bought the car in 1960.  Anyone old enough to work on the
 design of that model could have, and should have, been clued in.  The big
 problem, that car is still being made from those dies 41 years later!
  >>

Weather they rode the great Pullman Fleat or not. . . or even knew what a 
Pullman was.  I'm hear to tell you. From past experience at working at a 
major manufacturer of modell railroad equipment. The bottom line is that
both sides where made the same to save on the high costs of tool and die
work.
Jon S.

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From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 10:47:23 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars

Bob and all,

First Bob writes: I wrote:
 
<>

The HW Duplex sleeper was representative of two cars in one class, their 
names were Nocturne and Eventide...  Both obscure but definitely Pennsy and I 
think all SPF's should have at least one...  3^)
 
Then Bob writes this:
<>

Not entirely true, yes a different car from a different maker but not a 
fictional car. It, just as with the Nocturne/Eventide it represents an 
obscure car.  There was one in the General Pullman Pool so ... coulda 
happened ... mighta happened... 

There was talk early on about how heavy the tooling was and how the windows 
were too big, but having taken a micrometer to it and the Rivarossi car at 
the same time side by side I will tell you that if the tooling on the 
Rivarossi cars is absolutely dead on correct then the Bachmann car's windows 
are only 2+ inches too tall and less than 11/2 inches too wide out to out ... 
or less and this might be a bit over stated.  I have a 3 inch rule in HO 
Scale ... if it is three inches ore less in HO Scale I figure it's close 
enough.  Believe me the Rivarossi 12-1 has more errors with it to make me 
mistrust their tooling than I care to mention, so if you want to add the 
Bachmann to your Pennsy passenger car as a "stand-in" Pullman protection car 
who an I to speak out against you as long as it is next to either the 
Nocturne or the Eventide ... catch my drift?  3^)

Greg Martin 
 
 Bob Zoeller
 >>

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 11:18:25 -0400
Subject: [PRR] Accounting Division Maps
From: Jerry Britton 

Folks, yet another plea...

Somebody out of our 480 subscribers must have a set of Accounting Division
Maps. These were created for each of the divisional reorgs. I am looking for
either the early 1950's version or the 1956 version...but I need a full set.

I only need to borrow them, for less than a week, for scanning.

They would then be posted in the Maps section of Keystone Crossings for all
to access, with credit to the donor, but more importantly, I need them for
the PRR Virtual Layout. I have an excellent Lines West layout to plot on the
maps, but I am missing the needed maps!

Please contact me off-list if you can help.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF      jerry@pennsyrr.com     Member, PRRT&HS

"Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of
Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana
products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings",
the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-
Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are
providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit
our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com.
------------------------------Thank you!-----------------------------


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From: "Wayne S. Betty \(The Cos\)" 
Subject: RE: [PRR] Vistadomes?
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 13:55:22 -0400

Long time ago, before the dawn of civilization, I (with the help of some
well meaning parents) purchased an Athearn DD40 in PRR.  Now we all know
about the great DD40 on PRR, cruises the Middle division with mile long
trains, and/or replaces two SD40s on the Curve, it has even been know to
move mountains on Lines West!
But wait, the PRR was running out of money and that great DD40 fleet just
never came about.   How lucky for me that the Lancaster & Atlantic RR bought
one for helper service out of Columbia.  Since the L&A is a PRR subsidiary,
everything is lettered PRR.  The same story works great for those Lima 1200
hp switchers, PS1 boxcars, offset side hoppers, and a host of other things.
However, I must draw the line at Vistadomes.  They would get tangled in the
cat work and besides they wouldn't look to good in back of my ABBA set of
lgle (that's lime green locomotive....)FP7s


Cos

Cos Communications, Inc.
Home Page
Rail Road Pages
    Fairly recently, old enough to know better, I had a weak "SPF" moment at
a train show: I bought a 2 bay Weaver "O" scale offset side hopper, lettered
PRR, even though I'd already read "the book of Teichmoeller" (in installment
form - before it was issued as a book) - and knew that this was a "never
was"
car for the PRR - (It's now in "basic black" and sports a very large Erie
Diamond)
    Doctors bury their mistakes - we can just repaint them; each of us has
their own level of tolerance.
    I don't own a dome car - because, I think, it would be to new for my
steamers, but I now own a gorgeous extruded aluminum model of the "Silver
Rapids" Pennsy's contribution to the California Zephyr.
    I'm not sure how correct it is - I really don't want to know; I've liked
the car, ever since I first saw the original 35, or so years ago.

Dick Ross,
Cleveland.



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From: "W. Terry Stuart" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 17:47:47 -0400

Regarding the painting of the Strasburg's GP30, Jerry propsed...

>
>Dare I suggest a third and unusual option:
>
>3. One side in Conrail Blue and the other side in PRR DGLE.
>---------------------------------------------------------------------


Although it would present two opportunities, what do other photographers say
about the inherent challenge that would also be created by such a move?






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From: "W. Terry Stuart" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 17:56:54 -0400

Gary Mittner has a good point...


Jerry,
There is a 3rd and 4th option too! How
about a Penn Central? No PC locos there either.


There has been a dramatic increase over the past year or two in modeling
PENN CENTRAL.  Perhaps that translates into prototype interest as well.


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From: "W. Terry Stuart" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 18:05:38 -0400

Bennett Levin wrote...



>I say Conrail BLUE!.
>
>Conrail was a part of our heritage (especially in Pennsylvania) that we
>can all reflect upon with pride. Their management was responsive to the
>railfan community, and they generally took pride in everything they did.
>They were good citizens in this state and in the communities that they
>served. >


Case closed.  Bennett is correct.  Particularly when you contrast his
analysis of Conrail with the way the Norfolk Southern has treated
Pennsylvania.  Just ask anybody in Altoona!

We need to recognize and promote CONRAIL.  Painting the engine in Conrail
Blue is a fitting tribute to a fine railroad.



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Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 20:37:21 -0400
From: davep 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: cat pan

Stephen Bartlett wrote:
 
> I can add a bit about cat and pans, but specific to the 600 volt DC cat
> on the Niagara Junction Ry.  During my NY Central days I spent a lot of
> time in Niagara Falls on EE work for the NJ, which was partly owned by
> the Central.  The pans had a load of graphite grease in a recess between
> the two contact surfaces.  All the double-shoe "model" pans I have seen
> have an open space between the shoes, but these were solid, so there was
> a place to apply the graphite.
 
	My recollection is that IN GENERAL, DC and LV operations tended
	towards graphite rub strips.

>         I _think_ the cat on the NE Corridor has a bit of side-to-side
> alignment, which will also spread the wear.

	Yes on the new section, less so on the original.
 
> > Subject: cat pan
> > From: "Joseph Andrews" 
> > Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 05:53:23 -0700 (PDT)

> > While sitting around with some friends the other
> > evening, we got to talking about how everyone has
> > their own special vocabulary. I mentioned that when
> > most people hear the words "cat" and "pan" they think
> > of a litter box for a pet. I, on the other hand, think
> > "catenary" and "pantograph". These terms then had to
> > be explained to our company. My friend who is totally
> > non-railroad oriented (but otherwise pretty
> > intelligent) then asked a question that I had never
> > really thought about. What do they use to lubricate
> > the point of contact between the cat and the pan? How
> > come the wire doesn't saw thru the pan in a short
> > time?

	My recollection is that HV AC lines tend towards metallic
	contact shoes.  They are replaced regularly.

> > I'm sure this has a simple answer but as I said, I
> > never really gave it any thought.
> > Joe

> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Subject: Re: [PRR] cat pan
> > From: 
> > Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:08:12 -0400

> > Joseph asked about wear in pantographs; aren't some (all?) of the
> > pantograph contact surfaces made of graphite or similar, and
> > replaced frequently?  I would think that wear of the contact wire
> > would be the greater concern, since it's a lot harder to replace the
> > wire.  (And replacement of contact wire seems quite frequent
> > nonetheless; it's common to seee shiny copper contact wires
> > newly installed, while the messenger and catenary wires remain
> > weathered green.)

	Again, my recollection is that contact wire life is quite long.
	It is a trick bronze alloy (generally).  Contact surfaces are
	made softer (in relative terms) so THEY wear, as they can be
	easily replaced..

	best
	dwp

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Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 20:48:09 -0400
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Vista domes and the Athern Pullman
From: Fred G Rea 

Jon:

I am sure there may have been a cost motive.  However, the way they made
it the two sides are different.  One has the frosted windows on the left,
the other on the right. 

To be more correct, put them always on the left end as you face the
sides.  Then the restrooms would be at opposite ends of the car.  They
made both at the same end.

Fred
________________________________________________________________
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Date: 03 Jun 2001 23:10:33 -0400
From: Doug Drew 
Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/03/01

         Reply to:   RE: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/03/01
"Joseph Andrews" 
wrote:

What do they use to lubricate
the point of contact between the cat and the pan? How
come the wire doesn't saw thru the pan in a short
time?

and From: John Bobsin 
wrote:
 aren't some (all?) of the pantograph contact surfaces made of graphite or similar, and replaced frequently?  I would think that wear of the contact wire would be the greater concern, since it's a lot harder to replace the wire.  (And replacement of contact wire seems quite frequent nonetheless; it's common to seee shiny copper contact wires newly installed, while the messenger and catenary wires remain weathered green.)


-- Catenary wire was strung so that the wire would not consistently contact a pantograph in a single area (which would soon groove the pantograph contact surface), but rather to slide back and forth across the surface of the pan as the locomotive or MU car moved. You can see this phenomenon if you ride in the front of an MU car under wires, stand at the front door's window and look up as you are moving -- you can see the cat wires appear to zig-zag back and forth as you go forward.

-- As far as graphite being used in pantographs, I would imagine the pantograph contact surfaces were made of a specially-hardened steel. The combination of copper wire and steel pan may have functioned somewhat like a brass journal and a steel axle, though without the oil lubricant. Point of contact was constantly changing and was air-cooled. If anything, the graphite inserts -- if they existed -- may have functioned as some sort of dry lubricant.

Anybody have shots of GG-1's, P5a's or MP54's from above, to confirm it one way or the other?

Flame on...
Doug Drew


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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 08:44:42 -0400
From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars

Bob,

While I too have learned to "never say 'never'" with re to the PRR, I
concur that the P-70s "never" had 6-wheel trucks.

Having diplomatically begun by agreeing with you, let me now pick two
nits ;-)

1) I believe that the P70FARs never had "Commonwealth" trucks.  They
were a prewar conversion. That piece of conversion technology did not
occur until after WWII, on the P70FBRs.   ECW makes nice kits of each
and offers each with either kind of truck.  I have always equipped my
FARs with PRR roller bearing and my FBRs with Commonwealth trucks.

2)  You are again right that the prewar and postwar streamlined duplex
sleepers were different.  The bedroom windows were different, and the
vestibule was on the other end. But the prewar streamlined duplex
sleepers were M BROOK cars, not C CREEK cars.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

BTW What is the "other" HW pullman which is fictional in PRR livery?
==================================================
Bobspf@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 6/2/01 1:09:15 PM Central Daylight Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net
> writes:
> 
> <<  The
>  P70-series cars were built with six wheel trucks that were replaced with
>  four wheel trucks as they were updated and modernized. >>
> 
> I am not aware of any P70's built with six-wheel trucks, but I never say
> never.  The PB70's and the D78 diners ( also by Bachmann) had six-wheel
> trucks. You may be confusing the conversion of the modernized P70's to
> Commonwealth 4-wheel trucks from the Pennsy 4-wheel truck style(which I am
> too tired to look up) .  The Bachmann P70's have the Pennsy truck and the ECW
> kits for the P70FAR have the Commonwealth truck. Both prototypical.The
> Rivarossi 12-1 Pullman heavyweight, as far as it goes, represents the most
> common Pullman on the Pennsy as well as other roads. Their other HW Pullman
> in PRR livery is fictional.
> 
> In addition to the observation, the Rivarossi 10-6 lightweight Pullman is
> acceptable for a Pennsy Rapids car (though I can never quite find the exact
> window arrangement in plans) and the duplex sleeper is a model of a 1938
> Creek car with the skirts removed as they were after WWII.  I  (incorrectly)
> use it to represent a 1948 Creek car  in my 1948 Broadway until I get a
> chance to replace it ( I will probably pick the Cedar Creek as the new car to
> model , appropriate for our club, the Cedar Creek Central). The ECW 4-4-2
> lightweight can be used to model  a Pennsy 1938  Imperial car.
> 
> Bob Zoeller


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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 09:18:12 -0400
From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars

However, in Southern livery, that car could be seen on the Birmingham
Special running on the corridor to NY.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================

Bobspf@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 6/2/01 5:32:57 PM Central Daylight Time, I wrote:
> 
> << Their  (Rivarossi) other HW Pullman
>  in PRR livery is fictional. >>
> 
> As several have pointed out, I had a senior moment.  I forgot the 10 section
> car was Bachmann. Still fictional, just a different maker.
> 
> Bob Zoeller


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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 09:29:52 -0400
From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Vistadomes?


"Wayne S. Betty (The Cos)" wrote (in part):
. . . 
> However, I must draw the line at Vistadomes.  They would get tangled in the
> cat work and besides they wouldn't look to good in back of my ABBA set of
> lgle (that's lime green locomotive....)FP7s
> 
> Cos
> 
> Cos Communications, Inc.
> Home Page
> Rail Road Pages
=================================================

It would also be a very exciting journey under the Hudson into Penn
Station or through the Baltimore tunnels.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

=


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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 09:40:21 -0400
Subject: [PRR] Product Announcements List
From: Jerry Britton 

For all the "newbies" that may not realize the list exists, and because
their is currently a discussion on another list about "new" products(*) that
actually shipped/announced many months ago, I want to remind/announce to all
about the "Merchandise Announce" list operated by "Merchandise Service"...

Even if you prefer another dealer to make your purchases from, I encourage
all to subscribe to the "Merchandise Announce" list so that you are among
the first to know about new product announcements.

As an "announcement only" list, there are only 1-2 posts per week, so
traffic is very light.

So sign up today and don't be the last to know!

See

    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com

P.S. I expect to have the June releases from InterMountain sometime today.


(*) Discussion on other lists is about the release (many months ago) of
Morning Sun's "Trackside North of Washington" and the forthcoming release
(announced many months ago) of Morning Sun's "Pennsy Diesel Years Vol.3".
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
Free serving of railroad web sites
    http://www.railfancentral.com


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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 09:43:24 -0400
Subject: [PRR] Dave Johnson's Panhandle Division
From: Jerry Britton 

I have uploaded a major facelift of the web pages for Dave Johnson's
"Panhandle Division" layout on the Layouts page of "Keystone Crossings"...

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/

Dave has done an excellent job of modeling Lines West, coming out of
Pittsburgh and Conway, through Weirton and Mingo Junctions, etc. He also
provided superb photos, track plans, and schematics.

This layout has been promoted to inclusion in the "PRR Virtual Layout".

I encourage all to stop by and take a look!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
Free serving of railroad web sites
    http://www.railfancentral.com


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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 11:01:25 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars



Andy and Gary,you  are right on the money in your corrections. Re the 
Nocturne, that was  such a rare bird in the prototype I forgot about it :-).  
With regard to the Bachmann 10-section,  I said that it was fictional in the 
PRR livery, but I agree it had several  prototypes, with at least one in the 
Pullman pool.

And I will immediately subject myself to flagellation for misnaming the 
prewar Brook cars!

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 11:28:16 EDT
From: BPX29@aol.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars/ Duplex rooms

And & folks,
I haven't paid real close attention to this discussion, but as regards the Brook and Creek cars, I think they also had different configurations. I can't recall which version was pre-war, but one series had 4 double rooms and the other had 5, with both having 12 singles, as well as more minor differences. (As the early 50's edition of the Broadway carried the 4 double bedroom version, I'd suspect that was the post-war version; the Golden Triangle carried both versions at the same time).
If someone had already pointed this out, my apologies for not paying closer attention.

I was also under the impression, speaking of Rivarossi cars, that some of the "1940" series of corregated cars were Pennsy-friendly, though I haven't looked at them close enough to speak on the matter. They certainly did a nice job on some of the paint schemes (but I do hafta shake my head a bit at a parlor car nane on the coach), and I'll add a coach or two to one of my trains. It's close enough for me, and nobody in this neighborhood knows diddly about the Pennsy anyway.
regards,
Barry Peltier

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From: "Andrews, Ted" 
Subject: RE: [PRR] Rivarossi cars
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 11:35:39 -0400 

Bob and the list:

The Bachmann 10-Section in Pullman pool service was called "Scenic Glade"
and was painted in Pullman Green. It is kinda weird that this topic has
surfaced now since I am currently doing this  car right now. Although that
there was only one of these cars, I think that it was likely that this car
roamed PRR rails occasionally.

As for the Rivarossi HW Duplexes, those are next on my list. I am doing
"Eventide" in PRR Pre-war colors and "Nocturne" in PRR Post-war colors.

Ted Andrews

-----Original Message-----
From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 10:01 AM
To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars




Andy and Gary,you  are right on the money in your corrections. Re the 
Nocturne, that was  such a rare bird in the prototype I forgot about it :-).

With regard to the Bachmann 10-section,  I said that it was fictional in the

PRR livery, but I agree it had several  prototypes, with at least one in the

Pullman pool.

And I will immediately subject myself to flagellation for misnaming the 
prewar Brook cars!

Bob Zoeller

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From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 12:22:50 -0400
Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars

EVENTIDE and NOCTURN regularly appeared on the Edison during most of
their lifetime.

The prewar streamlined Duplexes (M BROOK) were 12-5s, the post war (C
CREEK) were 12-4s

When they first appeared, I researched the assignments of the 20-odd
(very odd) cars which matched the Bachmann Pullman.  That's how I
decided to paint mine for Southern.  I have a paper on the subject for
those that are interested.  I don't recall whether its posted on Jerry
B's KC site.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================
"Andrews, Ted" wrote:
> 
> Bob and the list:
> 
> The Bachmann 10-Section in Pullman pool service was called "Scenic Glade"
> and was painted in Pullman Green. It is kinda weird that this topic has
> surfaced now since I am currently doing this  car right now. Although that
> there was only one of these cars, I think that it was likely that this car
> roamed PRR rails occasionally.
> 
> As for the Rivarossi HW Duplexes, those are next on my list. I am doing
> "Eventide" in PRR Pre-war colors and "Nocturne" in PRR Post-war colors.
> 
> Ted Andrews
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com]
> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 10:01 AM
> To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
> Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars
> 
> Andy and Gary,you  are right on the money in your corrections. Re the
> Nocturne, that was  such a rare bird in the prototype I forgot about it :-).
> 
> With regard to the Bachmann 10-section,  I said that it was fictional in the
> 
> PRR livery, but I agree it had several  prototypes, with at least one in the
> 
> Pullman pool.
> 
> And I will immediately subject myself to flagellation for misnaming the
> prewar Brook cars!
> 
> Bob Zoeller


"PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage.

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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 12:22:50 -0400
From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars

EVENTIDE and NOCTURN regularly appeared on the Edison during most of
their lifetime.

The prewar streamlined Duplexes (M BROOK) were 12-5s, the post war (C
CREEK) were 12-4s

When they first appeared, I researched the assignments of the 20-odd
(very odd) cars which matched the Bachmann Pullman.  That's how I
decided to paint mine for Southern.  I have a paper on the subject for
those that are interested.  I don't recall whether its posted on Jerry
B's KC site.

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================
"Andrews, Ted" wrote:
> 
> Bob and the list:
> 
> The Bachmann 10-Section in Pullman pool service was called "Scenic Glade"
> and was painted in Pullman Green. It is kinda weird that this topic has
> surfaced now since I am currently doing this  car right now. Although that
> there was only one of these cars, I think that it was likely that this car
> roamed PRR rails occasionally.
> 
> As for the Rivarossi HW Duplexes, those are next on my list. I am doing
> "Eventide" in PRR Pre-war colors and "Nocturne" in PRR Post-war colors.
> 
> Ted Andrews
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com]
> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 10:01 AM
> To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com
> Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars
> 
> Andy and Gary,you  are right on the money in your corrections. Re the
> Nocturne, that was  such a rare bird in the prototype I forgot about it :-).
> 
> With regard to the Bachmann 10-section,  I said that it was fictional in the
> 
> PRR livery, but I agree it had several  prototypes, with at least one in the
> 
> Pullman pool.
> 
> And I will immediately subject myself to flagellation for misnaming the
> prewar Brook cars!
> 
> Bob Zoeller


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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 12:27:35 EDT
From: NDBPRR@aol.com
Subject: [PRR] Pans and Domes

My understanding is that the graphite shoes (self lubricating) were replaced by steel shoes in which case the copper rubbing off would have been the lubricant.  It was also the repsonsibility of someone in the cab (fireman?) to check the shoes for holes at every stop.  As expressed elsewhere the reason for no domes on tne corridor wasn't the catenary but the tunnel clearances.  Amtrak had a superliner in Philadelphia some years back that must have come in from the west.  As a resident of teh south suburbs who rides the IC occasionaly I still get a little nervous about the 4" clearance on the doubledeck cars.



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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 12:34:45 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivarossi cars/ Duplex rooms

In a message dated 6/4/01 10:34:03 AM Central Daylight Time, BPX29@aol.com 
writes:

<<  as regards the Brook and Creek cars, I think they also had different 
configurations. >>

Yes, prewar were 12 duplex room-5BR  Brook.  Postwar were 12-4 Creek.

 
 <>

I believe they are NYC postwar, but can't swear to it.  But I have the same 
philosophy. I like the prepainted coaches and will use the FOM version at the 
head end of the General until something better comes along.

<< It's close enough for me, and nobody in this neighborhood knows diddly 
about the Pennsy anyway.
 regards, >>

I am in the same position.  I rivet count only so far as to satisfy myself.  
Beyond that, no one has a clue in this neck of the woods either.  Most are 
baffled by my full-length passenger cars and run-through sleepers that are 
"different colors" from the rest of the train. I am using one of the 
Rivarossi Budd sleepers in ATSF on the Broadway until I can finish my ECW 
prewar version,for example. Only I know the difference.

Bob Zoeller
Fox Point, WI

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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 13:11:48 -0400
Subject: [PRR] Bachmann Spectrum Pullman Sleeper
From: Jerry Britton 

Andy Miller sent me a Microsoft Word file which contains his research on the
Bachmann Spectrum Pullman Sleeper. I have converted it to HTML and posted it
on Keystone Crossings in the Modeling section...

    http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/

Thank you for sharing, Andy!
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
Free serving of railroad web sites
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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 13:47:55 -0400
From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] P70 round-bottomed appendage

Claus,

Since no one else has taken it upon themselves to answer your question,
I can let you know that I always believed they were water tanks.  First
because the round bottom precludes their being used for anything solid,
like batteries or AC, and second because nothing else under a P70 looks
like a water tank.

BTW, I believe there were two and they were opposite one another on a
P70.  Therefore they would be under the NSY on one side and under the
LVA on the other.
Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================
Claus Schlund wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm trying to detail a model of a P70
> coach to match a specific car. After
> looking over a truckload of P70 photos, I noticed
> most P70 photos show a large round-bottomed
> piece of underbody equipment. As good
> a view as any can be found in the recent
> publication "Passenger Equipment of the Pennsylvania
> Railroad Vol 1 Coaches" on page 8. Both photos
> on this page have the item located
> beneath the letterboard letters "NSY" (within
> "PENNSYLVANIA").
> 
> Can anyone tell me what this thing is??? Some
> type of tank? Somethng else? Inquiring minds
> want to know...
> 
> Thanx - Claus


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From: "W. Terry Stuart" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR DGLE or Conrail Blue?
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:47:51 -0400

I haven't been at the museum in at least 2-3 years.  So would someone please
clear up a point of confusion?

How many GP30's does the museum actually HAVE?

Another series of posts suggests there may be TWO, and that one is already
painted in original Pennsy.

If there is only ONE--total, that could change our view of things.

Thanks in advance to anyone clearing this up!




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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 14:51:32 -0400
Subject: [PRR] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.
From: Jerry Britton 

One of the June product releases from Intermountain
(http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/ms_ar.html) is a
ready-to-run N scale ACF Type 27 8,000 Tank Car bearing the name of "Wolf's
Head Oil Refining Co." from "Oil City, Pa." (12 road numbers available).

I checked the 1945 CT1000C. Oil City is in the Buffalo Division. I find no
entry for this company. This leaves three possibilities:

1) The company was not served by the PRR but by another line. What other
lines ran through Oil City?

2) The company went out of business.

3) The company merged into a larger business. There was a "United Natural
Gas Go." at MP 119.7.

Anyone know?

Other release of note is a PFE R-40-23 Reefer (12 #'s) that may have
ventured east.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
    http://kc.pennsyrr.com
"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
    http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
Free serving of railroad web sites
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Subject: [PRR] Re: Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 15:00:09 -0400
From: Dennis Rockwell 

On 4 Jun, Jerry Britton wrote:

> One of the June product releases from Intermountain
> (http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/ms_ar.html) is a
> ready-to-run N scale ACF Type 27 8,000 Tank Car bearing the name of "Wolf's
> Head Oil Refining Co." from "Oil City, Pa." (12 road numbers available).

Buyers should be aware that the road numbers of these tanks
are the same as the kit version released several months ago,
so check carefully for duplicates unless you intend to
renumber.  This is also true for most of Intermountain's
prebuilt models these days; it was not true for some early
model runs.  I believe that IM waits until kit sales slow
down, then assembles the remaining kits.

Dennis

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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 15:03:07 -0400
From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachmann Spectrum Pullman Sleeper

Jerry Britton wrote:

> Andy Miller sent me a Microsoft Word file which contains his research on the
> Bachmann Spectrum Pullman Sleeper. I have converted it to HTML and posted it
> on Keystone Crossings in the Modeling section...
>
>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/
>
> Thank you for sharing, Andy!
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com

List-
I was so annoyed at Bachmann that I took it upon myself to send them a copy of
Andy Miller's report on the Spectrum Pullman Sleeper. I'll let you know if I
get any response.

Regards.
Dr. Edmond L. Freed
PRRT&HS # 156
Modeling the C&PD in HO



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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" 
Subject: [PRR] Fw: [PRR-n_scale] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City,
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 15:15:29 -0400


----- Original Message -----
From: "Gregg Mahlkov" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR-n_scale] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.


>
> Jerry:
>
> There is one other possibility - and  I think it is the likely one. Wolf's
> Head had its corporate headquarters in Oil City, but its plant at another
> Station. If you recall, Quaker State's main plant on the PRR wasn't even
in
> Pennsylvania but in West Virginia.
>
> Gregg Mahlkov
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jerry Britton" 
> To: "PRR-Talk LIST" 
> Cc: "PRR-n_scale" 
> Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 2:51 PM
> Subject: [PRR-n_scale] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.
>
>
> > One of the June product releases from Intermountain
> > (http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/ms_ar.html) is a
> > ready-to-run N scale ACF Type 27 8,000 Tank Car bearing the name of
> "Wolf's
> > Head Oil Refining Co." from "Oil City, Pa." (12 road numbers available).
> >
> > I checked the 1945 CT1000C. Oil City is in the Buffalo Division. I find
no
> > entry for this company. This leaves three possibilities:
> >
> > 1) The company was not served by the PRR but by another line. What other
> > lines ran through Oil City?
> >
> > 2) The company went out of business.
> >
> > 3) The company merged into a larger business. There was a "United
Natural
> > Gas Go." at MP 119.7.
> >
> > Anyone know?
> >
> > Other release of note is a PFE R-40-23 Reefer (12 #'s) that may have
> > ventured east.
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
> > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
> > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
> >     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
> > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
> >     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
> > Free serving of railroad web sites
> >     http://www.railfancentral.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
>


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:33:26 -0500
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." 
Subject: PFE was [PRR] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.

Jerry sez:
>Other release of note is a PFE R-40-23 Reefer (12 #'s) that may have
>ventured east.

In spite of what some folks might tell you, PFE cars were indeed seen in
some numbers on the PRR.  Apparently PFE preferred other routing as PRR had
the reputation of handling perishables just like coal, and therefore losing
a lot along the way, but blocks of perishables for PRR served cities would
come east in PFE cars.  Apparently cars were re-blocked at Enola for final
distribution...so where whole blocks of PFE cars might be appropriate for
trains on Horseshoe curve, you might see PFE, WFE, and FGE carss all mixed
together east of Enola (this is born out by videos I have looked at)

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 16:20:59 -0400
From: "Andrew S. Miller" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachmann Spectrum Pullman Sleeper

I first distributed that report when the car was first introduced
several years ago.  SO I suspect that they have seen it for some time
and a response now is unlikely.

My only complaint (besides all of the crazy paint schemes) is that they
went thru all that effort for a very obscure car.  I suspect they never
even know it was obscure. "A 10 section Pullman is a 10 section Pullman
is a 10 section Pullman" :-(

My biggest annoyance with B is that they make some very good PRR parts
and won't sell them separately.  Next time you complain to them, ask
them about buying trucks, or tenders, or Pullman underbody details...!

Regards,

Andy Miller
asmiller@mitre.org

==================================================
"Dr. Edmond L. Freed" wrote:
> 
> Jerry Britton wrote:
> 
> > Andy Miller sent me a Microsoft Word file which contains his research on the
> > Bachmann Spectrum Pullman Sleeper. I have converted it to HTML and posted it
> > on Keystone Crossings in the Modeling section...
> >
> >     http://kc.pennsyrr.com/model/
> >
> > Thank you for sharing, Andy!
> > -----------------------------------------------------------
> > Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
> 
> List-
> I was so annoyed at Bachmann that I took it upon myself to send them a copy of
> Andy Miller's report on the Spectrum Pullman Sleeper. I'll let you know if I
> get any response.
> 
> Regards.
> Dr. Edmond L. Freed
> PRRT&HS # 156
> Modeling the C&PD in HO


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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 13:22:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: robert netzlof 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.

--- Jerry Britton  wrote:
>   "Wolf's
> Head Oil Refining Co." from "Oil City, Pa."
> 
> 
> I checked the 1945 CT1000C. Oil City is in the
> Buffalo Division. I find no
> entry for this company. This leaves three
> possibilities:
> 
> 1) The company was not served by the PRR but by
> another line. 

By 1945, Wolf's Head may well (no pun intended) have
had their principle office in Oil City, but their
wells and refineries elsewhere. By then the Gulf Coast
fields had become the big producers.

> What other
> lines ran through [or to] Oil City?

New York Central, Erie.

> 
> 2) The company went out of business.
>

They may have by now, but they were still advertising
in the 1960's and probably later. 

> 3) The company merged into a larger business.

See comment to 2) above.

> There was a "United Natural Gas Go." at MP 119.7.
>

To the best of my knowlege, UNG was just gas, nothing
but gas. Come to think of it, UNG was and may still be
"the gas company" in much of Western Pa. north of
I-80. 

Quaker State (the Big Q) and Pennzoil had their
corporate offices in Oil City long after most of their
production and refining was going on in other parts of
the country. Wolf's Head was, to the best of my
knowlege, a minor player specializing in lube oil. (I
may have seen a Wolf's Head gas station here or there,
but nothing compared to Esso, Gulf, Atlantic,
Sinclair, etc.).

I recall reading an article in an antique handbook
which said that lube oils from Pennsylvania crude did
not thin out at high temperatures, unlike oils from
Gulf Coast crudes. Same idea as 10W-30 oil but
occurring naturally, without the additives. Thus,
"Pennsylvania" somewhere on the can or tank car or in
the corporate name was believed to have sales appeal. 

It may be (and here I speculate but not terribly
wildly) that Wolf's Head Oil Co. was the name of a
sales company which marketed oil refined by the Ralph
J. Wilson Refining Co. (or some such).



=====
Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob


__________________________________________________
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From: 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Reefers
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 13:30:29 -0700

It's more likely that IM ships kits from a current run to
China (via ship), has them assembled, and shipped back to
the good 'ol USA. The time lag is probably why it takes some
months for the assembled kits to hit the shelves.

Bill Daniels
Tucson, AZ


one more thing...PFE's R-40-23 cars were the most common of
the steel reefers on the PFE roster (sort of the X-29 of the
PFE fleet) with 5000 members. It's HIGHLY likely that this
car would show up virtually anywhere.



On Mon, 04 Jun 2001 15:00:09 -0400
 Dennis Rockwell  wrote:
> On 4 Jun, Jerry Britton wrote:
> 
> > One of the June product releases from Intermountain
> > 
> Buyers should be aware that the road numbers of these
> tanks
> are the same as the kit version released several months
> ago,
> I believe that IM waits until kit sales slow
> down, then assembles the remaining kits.
> 
> Dennis
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: "Bill Bigler" 
Subject: Re: PFE was [PRR] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:45:13 -0400

Bruce,

Not to pick nits,but what does the subject line have to do with the message?
Just curious!

Bill Bigler
Big Flats NY
Modeling PRR Renovo Div. &
     downtown Williamsport WWII

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." 
To: 
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 3:33 PM
Subject: PFE was [PRR] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.


> Jerry sez:
> >Other release of note is a PFE R-40-23 Reefer (12 #'s) that may have
> >ventured east.
>
> In spite of what some folks might tell you, PFE cars were indeed seen in
> some numbers on the PRR.  Apparently PFE preferred other routing as PRR
had
> the reputation of handling perishables just like coal, and therefore
losing
> a lot along the way, but blocks of perishables for PRR served cities would
> come east in PFE cars.  Apparently cars were re-blocked at Enola for final
> distribution...so where whole blocks of PFE cars might be appropriate for
> trains on Horseshoe curve, you might see PFE, WFE, and FGE carss all mixed
> together east of Enola (this is born out by videos I have looked at)
>
> Happy Rails
> Bruce
>
> Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
> Scott-Ritchey Research Center
> 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
> http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/
>
> "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin
Franklin
>                            __
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>
>
>
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From: "Jerry Shickler" 
Subject: [PRR] re:wolf's head oil
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:48:27 -0400

Wolf's Head is now owned by Pennzoil-Quaker State & is still available.  Oil
City was also served by the PRR, Erie & NYC.  I came across a reference
saying that the Wolf's Head refinery was in Reno, just west of Oil City, on
the north side of the river.  At Reno, the NYC & Erie ran on the north side,
while the PRR was on the south.

---
Jerry Shickler
Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at:
http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm



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From: Bobspf@aol.com
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:58:49 EDT
Subject: [PRR] Sunshine R50b

This may be old news to some--it might have been announced at the 
PRRT&HS--but I just got my invite to the RPM meet at Naperville from Sunshine 
and they announced they will release the above "soon".   I've got two brass 
versions (one to be painted) but look forward to more for the "fleet".

Bob Zoeller

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Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:08:31 -0500
From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." 
Subject: Re: PFE was [PRR] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.

Hi Bill,

Picking nits is fine, since turnabout on me is ALWAYS fair play , but
I'm a little mystified in this case...since I modified the subject line to
reflect the change to PFE cars...And, really, its all JERRY'S FAULT anyway
since he stuck a topic in his email that had nothing at all to do with the
subject!

>From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." 
>To: 
>Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 3:33 PM
>Subject: PFE was [PRR] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.
          ^^^
Perhaps I should have added something more than just "PFE"? ;^)

Happy Rails
Bruce

>Bruce,
>
>Not to pick nits,but what does the subject line have to do with the message?
>Just curious!
>
>Bill Bigler

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
                           __
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!!NEXT MESSAGE!!
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 16:33:28 -0500
Subject: [PRR] Painting PRR steam engines
From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" 

I am sitting here looking at a photo of I-1 4543 taken in East Altoona on 16
Aug 1955.  The unusual thing about this photo is that it was taken from
above the engine and clearly shows upper surfaces that cannot be seen from a
conventional ground level photo.

Some observations

1.  The smokebox is slightly darker than the boiler jacket toward the front,
but grades to boiler jacket color at the back;  this may be a shadow effect.
The boiler jacket, firebox top, turret top and cab roof are all a relatively
uniform light gray color in this photo.  The smokebox number plate is shiny.
The cab numbers and "Pennsylvania" on the tender are easily visible.

2.  Ashes are everywhere:  on the deck above the air tanks, on the running
board sections, on the cab toe board, on the top of the firebox, on the cab
hatch, on the cab roof, and there is a large accumulation on the roof upside
of the gutter.  This latter accumulation gets wider toward the rear of the
cab roof where the gutter meets the rain shield.

3.  There is white sand around both sandbox hatches and some spilled on the
running board beneath the sanding valves.

So, if you want to model a working steam engine and make it look authentic
you probably ought to paint it some shade of grimy black, as someone on this
list suggested a couple of years ago, and liberally apply finely ground ash
on every horizontal surface available.  

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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 18:31:29 -0400
From: "David R. Campbell" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.

Jerry Britton wrote:
> 
> One of the June product releases from Intermountain
> (http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/ms_ar.html) is a
> ready-to-run N scale ACF Type 27 8,000 Tank Car bearing the name of "Wolf's
> Head Oil Refining Co." from "Oil City, Pa." (12 road numbers available).
> 
> I checked the 1945 CT1000C. Oil City is in the Buffalo Division. I find no
> entry for this company. This leaves three possibilities:
> 
> 1) The company was not served by the PRR but by another line. What other
> lines ran through Oil City?
> 
> 2) The company went out of business.
> 
> 3) The company merged into a larger business. There was a "United Natural
> Gas Go." at MP 119.7.
> 
> Anyone know?
> 
> Other release of note is a PFE R-40-23 Reefer (12 #'s) that may have
> ventured east.
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Jerry Britton, SPF   Member, PRRT&HS   jerry@pennsyrr.com
> Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale.
> "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list!
>     http://kc.pennsyrr.com
> "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products
>     http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com
> Free serving of railroad web sites
>     http://www.railfancentral.com
> 
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Jerry,

I lived there for many years before moving to VA. There was Wolf's Head
refinery in Reno, PA between Oil City and Franklin, across the river
from the PRR line. What became the Erie Lackawanna (Erie I guess) and
the NYC (LSMS) ran beside the refinery. I believe it burnt years ago.
Great area, & I love to go back from time to time.

Wolf's Head was purchased in later years by Pennzoil I believe, which
was head quartered in Oil City for a number of years. Pennzoil had a
refinery north of Oil City in Rouseville. Not sure about Wolf's Head's
main office. 

My father worked for UNG which became NFG (National Fuel Gas) a natural
gas utility, no connection with Wolf's Head.

David Campbell

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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 19:21:11 -0400
From: "R. Vogel" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] re:wolf's head oil

Hi,

If you want to see some evidence of Wolf's Head check out: www.mapsofpa.com/roadmaps5.htm

-Bob Vogel

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 19:55:54 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa.

In a message dated 06/04/2001 3:00:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jerry@pennsyrr.com writes:

<< I checked the 1945 CT1000C. Oil City is in the Buffalo Division. I find no
 entry for this company. This leaves three possibilities:
 
 1) The company was not served by the PRR but by another line. What other
 lines ran through Oil City?  

NYC & Erie
 
 2) The company went out of business.  

Still in business today.
 
 3) The company merged into a larger business. There was a "United Natural
 Gas Go." at MP 119.7.

Different company.

Rich Orr

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From: SUVCWORR@aol.com
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 19:58:51 EDT
Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: [PRR-n_scale] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil

In a message dated 06/04/2001 3:17:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
mahlkov@gtcom.net writes:

<< There is one other possibility - and  I think it is the likely one. Wolf's
 > Head had its corporate headquarters in Oil City, but its plant at another
 > Station. If you recall, Quaker State's main plant on the PRR wasn't even
 in
 > Pennsylvania but in West Virginia.
 > >>
Gregg:

Wolf's head still has facilities in Oil City.  A few months ago, there was a 
large number of tank cars there as well.

Rich Orr

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From: Paul Stumpff 
Subject: [PRR] Re: Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City, Pa. 
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 21:16:09 -0400

I think Wolf's Head Refinery was in Reno or was it Eclipse on the west bank 
of the Allegheny. Do not have if NYC or Erie served it.

If it was NYC, could have PRR served Wolf's Head when they were using that 
line; the original WNY&P had trackage rights from Oil City to Stoneboro on 
NYC's Franklin branch [later Oil City Branch, then Reno Industrial under 
PC]. The WNY&P then continued to New Castle from Stoneboro; in later years 
this service was cut to New Castle to Houston Jct.

FYI, Wolf's Head is still marketed. I think it is Witco that owns the 
label. Witco also markets Kendall.

Paul Stumpff



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From: "Gregg Mahlkov" 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: [PRR-n_scale] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 21:46:18 -0400

Rich:

>From sev eral other posts, it appears that Wolf's Head is outside of Oil
City, at Reno, PA. Coukl this be the location you are referring to?

Gregg Mahlkov

----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: ; 
Sent: Monday, June 04, 2001 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [PRR] Fw: [PRR-n_scale] Wolf's Head Oil Refining Co., Oil City,
Pa.


> In a message dated 06/04/2001 3:17:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> mahlkov@gtcom.net writes:
>
> << There is one other possibility - and  I think it is the likely one.
Wolf's
>  > Head had its corporate headquarters in Oil City, but its plant at
another
>  > Station. If you recall, Quaker State's main plant on the PRR wasn't
even
>  in
>  > Pennsylvania but in West Virginia.
>  > >>
> Gregg:
>
> Wolf's head still has facilities in Oil City.  A few months ago, there was
a
> large number of tank cars there as well.
>
> Rich Orr
>
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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to
> "listserv@dsop.com".
>
>


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Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 23:43:41 -0400
From: davep 
Subject: Re: [PRR] Pans and Domes

NDBPRR@AOL.COM wrote:

> My understanding is that the graphite shoes (self lubricating) were

	Graphite is a tad fragile.
	Consider that the shoe is continually colliding with the wire
	at 120 mph...

> replaced by steel shoes

	Just so.  cf Manson, RR Electrification and elsewhere.

> in which case the copper

	The usual contact wire is a bronze alloy, sometimes called 'phono
	bronze'.

	best
	dwp

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From: Paul Stumpff 
Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR-Talk Digest - 06/05/01
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 02:56:45 -0400

After checking around, the refinery is still there. It was served by both 
the Erie and NYC. Now NS still services it using the former Erie [EL] 
trackage with some of NYC trackage still around. This information was 
provided off Pennsylvania Railfan Forum, thanks Ryan Fischer.

Paul Stumpff




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From: "Chany, Christopher" 
Subject: RE: [PRR] Sunshine R50b
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 08:05:40 -0400 

An R50b!  Hooray!  I'll buy two which will guarantee it will come out in
plastic :)

Chris Chany

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Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 08:46:11 -0400
Subject: [PRR] Model Manufacturers and Road Numbers
From: Jerry Britton 

Just a primer for those that don't know...

Yesterday it was mentioned that InterMountain has, in at least some cases,
used the same road numbers for both their kits and their pre-assembled
models.

Both InterMountain Railway and Red Caboose utilize the same part number
system for their models. There is one part number for a particular car in a
particular scheme. For instance, one part number for an "X-29 in PRR Shadow
Keystone". They then offer multiple road numbers of each. Rather than
putting the road number on the box, they append the part number with a
suffix that denotes the road number release number. When the first dozen
road numbers are released, for instance, the part numbers will have the
suffixes of "-01", ..., "-12". As long as you pick a box with a different
suffix, you will get a different road number.

Bowser also makes multiple road numbers. Unfortunately, there is no
indication of such on their boxes.

Branchline Trains usually makes four numbers per release. Again, no marking
on the box, except that they offer a single car and a three pack. The three
pack bears the same part number as the single car, plus the