Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 03:42:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Convention report request Hello list, Would it be possible for some of you to post about the PRRT&HS convention as it occurs? I'm further away than most folks, and I'm sure lots of others on the list also couldn't make the convention. Thanks in advance! Doug __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 07:59:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention report request From: Jerry Britton On 5/1/01 6:42 AM, Doug Kisala (dougkisala@yahoo.com) wrote: > Would it be possible for some of you to post about the > PRRT&HS convention as it occurs? > > I'm further away than most folks, and I'm sure lots of > others on the list also couldn't make the convention. > Yes. I live locally and will be commuting to the convention. I will post reports as I return in the evening (after 11 p.m.) or first thing (around 6:30 a.m.) the following morning. In either case, you should be seeing it at breakfast time! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 08:43:56 -0700 (PDT) From: george carey Subject: [PRR] T-1 sighted in Oklahoma The PBS "American Experience" program on Harry Truman made it to Idaho television last night. I was amazed to see that the train Mr. Truman took from Missouri to Oklahoma in 1914 was pulled by a T-1. At least that was the film clip that the director decided was appropriate to accompany the narration. It's wonderful what you can learn from documentaries. GDC __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 sighted in Oklahoma Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 09:04:30 -0700 Oops... I knew that the T1 was ahead of it's time, but... Must be on that little-known extension that the PRR ran out to Independence Missouri from Independence Hall, in Philly! Bill Daniels On Tue, 1 May 2001 08:43:56 -0700 (PDT) george carey wrote: > The PBS "American Experience" program on Harry Truman > made it to Idaho television last night. I was amazed > to see that the train Mr. Truman took from Missouri to > Oklahoma in 1914 was pulled by a T-1. At least that > was the film clip that the director decided was > appropriate to accompany the narration. It's wonderful > what you can learn from documentaries. GDC > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message > "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil Subject: RE: [PRR] unsubscribe Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 11:16:27 -0700 Due to a change in e-mail address, I must unsubscribe for a few weeks. Could you please send me the info for me to do this? Thanks, elden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 14:44:48 EDT From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] T-1 Tenders There is a person on AOL looking for information regarding water hatches on T1 tenders. he claims that the photo on p. 221 of Pennsy Power shows a T1 without a water hatch on the tender. I said I found that to be unbelievable that there would be no way except for a scoop to rewater a T1 tender. Can anyone shed any light on this? Thanks, norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] T-1 sighted in Oklahoma Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 14:36:08 -0400 The PRR branchline that carried President Harry Truman from Independence Hall, PA to Independence, MO must of been the "Executive Branch" :P Ted -----Original Message----- From: billd@gci-net.com [mailto:billd@gci-net.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 11:05 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 sighted in Oklahoma Oops... I knew that the T1 was ahead of it's time, but... Must be on that little-known extension that the PRR ran out to Independence Missouri from Independence Hall, in Philly! Bill Daniels On Tue, 1 May 2001 08:43:56 -0700 (PDT) george carey wrote: > The PBS "American Experience" program on Harry Truman > made it to Idaho television last night. I was amazed > to see that the train Mr. Truman took from Missouri to > Oklahoma in 1914 was pulled by a T-1. At least that > was the film clip that the director decided was > appropriate to accompany the narration. It's wonderful > what you can learn from documentaries. GDC > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message > "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 14:05:25 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 Tenders >There is a person on AOL looking for information regarding water hatches >on T1 tenders. he claims that the photo on p. 221 of Pennsy Power shows a >T1 without a water hatch on the tender. I said I found that to be >unbelievable that there would be no way except for a scoop to rewater a T1 >tender. Can anyone shed any light on this? Thanks, norm Bell AOL, it figures...must be looking at the bowser model ;^) No water hatches? Geez, I can see it now...dead T-1 (no fire) needs water...they have to tow it out to a track pan, somehow lower the scoop and tow it along the pan at 40 mph to fill the tank? I don't think so! Of course there were water hatches on the tops of T-1 tenders...must be a bizzilion photos of them being watered! The hatches were longitudinal, one on each side, under the shrouding. Note that the original shrouding got in the way, and was first removed around the hatch...for a "gap" sided tender, and then removed completely. In addition, the tender shrouding was high enough that standard water collumns on the system were too short, and you can see in several late 1940's shots the use of special higher water collumns were T-1 were watered. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 15:11:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 Tenders The T1 tender as shown in that photo shows no water hatch. BUT! If you look closely, the tender sides have fold down notches to access the water hatch's. These tenders were so tall they could not use water plugs as is. So The top side sheet had an opening/folddown door to get to the hatch. Look closely at the pic and you will see.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 15:13:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 Tenders Bruce, Dang!!! you beat me to the answer. Mine will show up shortly on PRR-Talk. Almost word for word!....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 15:14:51 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 sighted in Oklahoma The PBS series The American Experience is notorious for failing(with an F-) when it comes to train coverage. The recent production on American Streamliners shows English scenes. Other productions of European Trains during the wartime show an ERIE boxcar! Offers of help are refused. It pays to watch just to see how screwed up the productions are. "Andrews, Ted" wrote: > > The PRR branchline that carried President Harry Truman from Independence > Hall, PA to Independence, MO must of been the "Executive Branch" :P > > Ted > > -----Original Message----- > From: billd@gci-net.com [mailto:billd@gci-net.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 11:05 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 sighted in Oklahoma > > Oops... > > I knew that the T1 was ahead of it's time, > > but... > > Must be on that little-known extension that the PRR ran out > to Independence Missouri from Independence Hall, in Philly! > > Bill Daniels > > On Tue, 1 May 2001 08:43:56 -0700 (PDT) > george carey wrote: > > The PBS "American Experience" program on Harry Truman > > made it to Idaho television last night. I was amazed > > to see that the train Mr. Truman took from Missouri to > > Oklahoma in 1914 was pulled by a T-1. At least that > > was the film clip that the director decided was > > appropriate to accompany the narration. It's wonderful > > what you can learn from documentaries. GDC > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message > > "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 12:54:37 -0700 From: Dick Lemin Subject: [PRR] Radio Equipped Decals Hello, Can any one tell me if any one makes a decal for the small "Radio Equipped" insignia on the cab of PRR hood diesels, and where can I find them. The sign is a small red square containing a white circle with the words "Radio Equipped" in it. So far I haven't been able to find them, and my local hobby shop hasn't been able to help either. I hope one of you can help. Thank you. Dick Lemin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 13:22:51 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1 sighted in Oklahoma --- Bennett Levin wrote: > The PBS series The American Experience is notorious > for failing(with an > F-) when it comes to train coverage. The recent > production on American > Streamliners shows English scenes. Other productions > of European Trains > during the wartime show an ERIE boxcar! > And the History Channel isn't any better. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 18:06:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Radio Equipped Decals Hugh Deberthine of California made the "Radio" decals, at one time: look for them (or have someone look for you) at the PRRT&HS convention - this week. Sorry, I can't make it this year.... RR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeremy & Soni Helms" Subject: Re: [PRR] Radio Equipped Decals Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 20:30:44 -0500 Dick, Raritan Bay Hobbies makes these with the web address of http://www.raritanbayhobbies.com/ They sell these in HO scale only at $3.49 for a set of I believe 4. Now if doing another scale (I am currently working on some N scale projects) take these to your local Kinko's or color copying outfit and copy onto plain WHITE decal sheet. Most color copier places are unable to copy white. They can also reduce or increase at a set percentage allowing for exact scale replication. Another thing I have suggested to the folks at Raritan Bay Hobbies is to send these off to Rail Graphics or some other outfit like that and have them run off a number of N, S, & O scale copies of these. Just a thought. Jeremy Helms > Hello, > Can any one tell me if any one makes a decal for the small "Radio > Equipped" insignia on the cab of PRR hood diesels, and where can I find > them. The sign is a small red square containing a white circle with the > words "Radio Equipped" in it. So far I haven't been able to find them, and > my local hobby shop hasn't been able to help either. I hope one of you can > help. Thank you. > Dick Lemin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Train shop Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 15:48:54 -0400 Listers, This is for you Harrisburg locals. Just off the exit of 81 for Hershey there is a billboard for a Hobby shop somewhere near Marysville. Anyone know its name. Since I am coming down to the meeting I figure I could at least check it out. See you at the meeting (those that are going)!!! Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 16:26:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Train shop On Wed, 2 May 2001, Chany, Christopher wrote: > > Listers, > > This is for you Harrisburg locals. Just off the exit of 81 for Hershey > there is a billboard for a Hobby shop somewhere near Marysville. Anyone > know its name. Since I am coming down to the meeting I figure I could at > least check it out. Based on past traveling I'd guess it's Dale's LocoMotion, on the railroad side of 11/15 in/near Marysville. I've been past but never stopped there, so I can't comment further. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 17:27:29 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Train shop From: Jerry Britton On 5/2/01 4:26 PM, Derrick J Brashear at (shadow@dementia.org) wrote: >> This is for you Harrisburg locals. Just off the exit of 81 for Hershey >> there is a billboard for a Hobby shop somewhere near Marysville. Anyone >> know its name. Since I am coming down to the meeting I figure I could at >> least check it out. > > Based on past traveling I'd guess it's Dale's LocoMotion, on the railroad > side of 11/15 in/near Marysville. I've been past but never stopped there, > so I can't comment further. > D's probably right. They used to be all Lionel, but now they advertise HO. They are actually several miles north of Marysville, on the way to Duncannon. They are across from Big Bee Boats, which is what you should look for, cause you'll miss Dale's. It's a tiny shop in the basement of a house. On a nice day, he puts stuff on tables along the road. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lmatt" Subject: [PRR] octagon building at Altoona Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 21:58:02 -0400 Dear friends: I have a PRR print of an 8 sided building called a "watch box" and is marked Altoona, Sept, 1880. It is aabout 6' wide on each side of the octagon. Anyone know anything about this building and what it may have been used for? Lew Matt #6107 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 22:25:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] octagon building at Altoona Lew, It sounds like a crossing shanty. But being not many if any cars in 1880, maybe the purpose was to house the watchman to guard against horse/buggy--Train collisions? Could also be a track walkers shelter? I'm pretty much guessing....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 22:49:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] octagon building at Altoona Lew, I got my book out called "57 Plans - MOW-For the Pennsylvania Railroad" On page 38 they have a plan for a "Watch Box". It is dated for 1911. At this time the building is a small rectangle shape. It says a "Watch Box" if for a watchman at Grade Crossings. It also says "However, it also saw duty at other locations where a watchan was stationed and had to be protected from the weather". So my first guess may be right on lline anyway. Horses, pedestrians etc of the 1880 time period protected at crossings...Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 12:19:19 -0400 Subject: [PRR] One Hot Convention!!! From: Jerry Britton Disregard the weather reports -- weather channel says it is currently 81 degrees in Harrisburg...it is 95!!! Gonna be a cooker for the convention. If I recall, it was real hot last year as well. However, the hotel's A/C kept up with it. T-minus 6 hours and 40 minutes until the first session -- on the Elmira Branch -- kicks off. Hope to see some of you this evening, many more tomorrow and Saturday. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 15:07:47 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Web Cam over Harrisburg? From: Jerry Britton Okay, here's a tangent treat for you... I live just outside of Harrisburg, and big in the news is the second season of nesting for a pair of Peregrine Falcons in an artificial nest on the side of a city office building. There's a web cam so you can monitor the birds, whose eggs are due to hatch +/- May 6...in three days! Anyhow, I was checking out the website, which offers "wallpaper" shots for computers, and guess what I found... http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/falcon/images/falconclose640.jpg This photo, though the falcon is in the foreground, is an excellent shot of the current trackage south of the Harrisburg passenger station!!! The roadway bridge at left is Mulberry Street. The railroad overpass at the top is the Reading line. At center right is the wye where Amtrak turns trains. This leads to the right to the Cumberland Valley Branch bridge over which Northern Central Branch trains arrived into Harrisburg. A while back I noted railfanning with my son in a parking lot that was owned by Pinnacle Health Systems, down by Harrisburg Hospital. The lot is in this photo, to the right of the mains, above the wye, and below the Reading line. This lot and the area within the wye would have been part of the Harrisburg Gas Company. The apartment building alongside the wye would have been the approximate location of the REA building. The freight warehouse was yet further to the right, out of view. Prior to the 1930's, there was a turntable and roundhouse on the site of the current wye. End of bird story! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 22:05:10 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: [PRR] ALERT A significant number of PRR artifacts are missing from the Collection of Bennett Levin including the tower signs from Forge, Wall, View, Hunt, Benny, AR and others to be catalogued and posted as soon as an inventory is completed. Also missing are a significant number of O-Scale PRR models. A substantial amount of PRR serving silver is also missing. Beware of anyone who you may suspect had access to the collection and who may be attempting to fence the mechandise. Bennett Levin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 06:06:11 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention - Day One From: Jerry Britton Things kicked off on-time with Eric Johnson's talk of the Elmira branch. Some excellent photos of steam that I had not seen published before. Even included some photos of Erie units (FT's, I think) working the branch during 1955 when they apparently used the branch as a by-pass of one of their lines that had gotten washed out from a hurricane. For a modeler, this adds a touch of color to the line. Also had shots of NYC Alco FA "Lightning Stripe" pool power. Eric started in Newberry and worked north. It ran longer than expected and I had to leave after Emporium to attend to some business. The vendor room sold all tables once again. Bill Lewis has a huge N scale setup on-site this year. They arranged for him to have a locked room so he doesn't have to tear down each night. They were running trains until 10 last evening. Though I did not see Claus and Doug, I did see a sample of Hell Gate's new resin B-60b's in N scale. Looks pretty darn good. The roof and sides are especially smooth, but a slight amount of clean up is required. They should sell a ton of these! Brian Butcher of East Wind Mfg. reports that the P-70kR sides (N scale) are ready for display, so I should see them on Day Two. He also has his new Key T-1 on hand. Looks like the Pittsburgh Chapter put on a great show. Another report after Day Two. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don Murphy" Subject: [PRR] Custom painting! DCC installed! Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 09:15:06 -0400 X-Apparently-From: Dmurp670@cs.com Custom painting! DCC installed! Westside Locomotive Works offers professional custom painting with DCC installation and a quick turn around time! Over 15 years experience. A lifetime PRR modeler recreating the Renovo Division circa 1946. Former steam locomotive kit reviewer for Model Railroader magazine! See examples of my work here: http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/dmurp670?d&.flabel=fld1&.intl=us&.src=ph&start=1 Email for a quote and a price list! Don Murphy Westside Locomotive Works dmurp670@cs.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Staley Tank Cars on the PRR Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 19:42:06 -0400 Jerry & List: I do not see you copied on this. Now you can run a string of A. E. Staley cars through Harrisburg! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Allen" To: Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2001 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Staley Tank Cars on the PRR > Staley also has a plant in Morrisville, PA which is served by a short > branch which joins the Trenton Cutoff just east of the Engine House and > crosses under the NEC . Val Maps show this spur as "Old Main". > > MEA > > On Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:47:13 -0400 "Gregg Mahlkov" > writes: > > Jerry:- > > > > Since A. E. Staley is located at Decatur, IL, and PRR served Decatur on > the line from Terre Haute to Peoria, I am sure some of these cars would > be seenon PRR in the 1950's. > > > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jerry Britton" > > To: "PRR-Talk LIST" > > Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 10:31 AM > > Subject: [PRR] Staley Tank Cars on the PRR > > > > > > > InterMountain makes some pretty decent 8,000 gallon tank cars. One of > the road names is Staley Manufacturing. Would these have been spotted on > the PRR in the mid-1950's? > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] Elmira Branch questions Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 17:23:56 -0700 List, After perusing Bill Caloroso's excellent book on PRR'S ELMIRA BRANCH, I have a couple of questions for those of you who are familiar with operations on this line. First of all, there are several photos of trains passing semaphores, (the ones I saw were taken at Trout Run) in which the train is well past the signal mast, but the upper arm of the semaphore is still in the clear position. I know from actual observations that it takes a short time after a train passes a semaphore signal for the arm to drop (in the case of where I watched one, it was a lower quadrant in which the arm raised...) but the train in these shots is well past the signal. Were these manual signals set by the block operators? Most, if not all of the trains carried a cabin car just after the locomotive. The text states that there was no room on the locomotive for the head end brakeman (but PRR freight locomotives had a doghouse on the tender cistern). I know that New York State required an additional brakeman...did he ride in this cabin car? How often were locomotives cycled off the line, for major repairs at Altoona. A common L1s photographed in 1957 was 2365...was it on the line in, say 1950 or so? A more general question...I know that most PRR locomtives were subjected to the "beauty treatment" by the time many of the photos were shot (in the mid to late 1950's). How long did it take for the PRR to cycle these locomotives through the shops for relocation of the generator and headlight? Would many locomotives carry the the generator and headlight in the earlier position as late as 1950 or 1951? Inquiring minds want to know! Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lmatt" Subject: [PRR] PRR "snow melting" oil storage system Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 10:57:47 -0400 I have a disintegrated PRR drawing, dated 1918, of an underground oil storage system that PRR used for snow melting, probably at switch points. There is what appears to be an in-ground filler pipe with a filter, encased in a ground level concrete slab situated over an underground square storeage tank. Ten feet away, there is an above ground 20" diameter, 37" high roofed cylinder, with a curved door on the front, containing two pipes, a vent pipe coming from the top of the oil storage tank and another pipe coming from the bottom of the same tank. This pipe is not completely drawn past the point where it leaves the soil and enters the cylinder. The draftsman rendered this pipe with a horizontal "S" line to show that there is a section taken out. The drawing designates the cylinder to be not less than 10' from the tank and 20' from the tracks. My question is: was there a pump of some sort, hand or other(?) inside this cylinder to extract the oil for the use of melting snow? If there was a pump inside, does anyone have knowledge of what it looked like, either a memory, a photo or a drawing? OR, do I have this backward, is the filler pipe in the cylinder and what appears to be the intake/filter in the ground some kind of pump? E-mail me off line with questions. I will repost when I have the answer. Lew Matt PRT&HS #6107 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 12:06:15 EDT Subject: [PRR] WILMINGTON/CLOCK TOWER Hi everyone - Just uploaded two pictures sent by Earl of the Clock Tower building. He is attaching the roof. This thing has really turned out to be a showpiece and has been well worth the delay. Strongly recommend all customers download the pictures off the site to help with construction. Dayna http://www.trainstuffllc.com/images/wpe26.jpg http://www.trainstuffllc.com/images/wpe25.jpg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Elmira Branch questions Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 23:20:18 -0500 Hi Bill--Nobody has "volunteered" yet, so let me take a shot at a couple of your questions. > >Were these manual signals set by the > block operators? > I believe the semaphores you refer to were train order signals, used if there were orders to be handed on. Other photos show the usual PRR position light signals for blocks and sidings on the Branch. > > How often were locomotives cycled off the line, for major > repairs at Altoona. > Locomotives assigned to the branch would normally have gone to Renovo for major work as stated in "Set Up Running". > > Would many locomotives carry the the generator and headlight > in the earlier position as late as 1950 or 1951? Inquiring > minds want to know! > Photos I have seen would indicate that most of these modifications were completed by 1951; however, some were done after this, and there were a handful of engines that never were modified. Practicality would dictate that this non-essential change would only be done in conjunction with other major work if the required parts were at the right shop at the right time. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 07:33:47 EDT From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Day Two Jerry, Well, all of us that couldn't make the convention are looking forward to further updates. The mention of Lazer Horizon's new coach sides was a pleasant surprise. A P70kr and gsr were products I had no idea were coming. Not having the new coach book yet, but expecting to get it this weekend, I'm not sure right off what the kR version looks like exactly. But the gsr version is an old favorite. What's got my curiosity working is what to use for a roof? Or does it match the roof section available from Bethlehem Car Works, the plastic one? (Almost seems though that the roof tapered down toward the ends, but I'm not looking at plans and am trying to recollect). This certainly shows promise. We're all looking forward to an update. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 08:55:22 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention -- Day Three (Belated) From: Jerry Britton Day Three -- Business meeting was well attended and there was no "bad news". Dave Scott provided his typical "full disclosure" financial report. Bob Johnson gave an overview of the archive project. A fuller report was provided later in the day, with a Q&A session, but I was unable to attend. It appears that the project is finally moving...and in good directions!!! A preliminary estimate is that the collection contains about 170,000 drawings! Next year's convention is in Camp Hill, as previously announced. 2003 will be hosted by the Philadelphia Chapter, at a TBD site. Trenton and Cherry Hill are being considered. There's been on-going talk of a "Lines West" convention for 2004, hosted by the Cincinatti Modeler's Division. So as to not create a convention that nobody will attend, the would-be hosters presented their ideas and it was tremendously recieved. Nearly everyone in the room (about 300) indicated they would attend! The plan includes having the banquet in the concourse of Cincinnati Union Station! Paul Backenstose gave a presentation on "Giving Your Layout the Flavor of the PRR". He provided kitbash samples of "off the shelf" models that can easily be made to represent PRR prototypes, including -- get this -- Plasticville! With his permission, I will soon be posting his list of applicable models to the "Modeling" section of "Keystone Crossings". At dinner, a "Lifetime Achievement" award was presented to Gil Reid. Many of his paintings, and a few from other painters, were on display during dinner. Wow, what a collection all in one place! Bob Yagodich, a fellow member of the Northern Central Chapter, took "Best of Show" for his HO scale model of a ballast cleaning train. The effort required 600 hours of labor. I caught more than one person off-guard when I told them it actually worked..."it pulls up your dirty cork and lays down new cork!" ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 09:21:00 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] P70Kr and P70 GSr I'm thrilled. As anyone lurking on this list for a while knows, I have been asking for these cars for a long time. I'll be watching your site next week Jerry. But I'm confused about the roof. Both of these cars useda flush end, low profile, arch roof to match contemporary streamlined cars. I don't see how a standard P70 kit can form a core for them! I will probably continue with my old habits of usenig a brass floor and a shortened roof salvaged from an old AHM/Rivarossi streamliner. BTW Barry, bad news. The new PRR Coach book, good as it is, has NO pictures of either of these classes :-( BTW2 I will have to alert my B&M friends here in NEw England who have been anxious to build an Eastwind. The P70k was the correct car for them. regards, Andy Miller ============================ BPX29@aol.com wrote: > > Jerry, > Well, all of us that couldn't make the convention are looking forward to further updates. The mention of Lazer Horizon's new coach sides was a pleasant surprise. A P70kr and gsr were products I had no idea were coming. Not having the new coach book yet, but expecting to get it this weekend, I'm not sure right off what the kR version looks like exactly. But the gsr version is an old favorite. What's got my curiosity working is what to use for a roof? Or does it match the roof section available from Bethlehem Car Works, the plastic one? (Almost seems though that the roof tapered down toward the ends, but I'm not looking at plans and am trying to recollect). This certainly shows promise. > We're all looking forward to an update. > Barry Peltier > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 09:32:46 -0400 From: Thomas Mahon Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention -- Day Three (Belated) God, Jerry! You are cruel! Like the time I was running a module display at a show and a young man was giving his mother an awful time. I stopped all the running trains and told him that they could detect a child who was not being nice and would not run until he stopped giving his mother a hard time. He gave me a startled look. His mother's look was of indescribable relief. He stopped making noise and the trains ran. He went 15 feet and started again and the trains stopped! His mother reminded him of what I had said. He was very well behaved for the rest of his visit. And the trains ran. My fellow "engineer" told me I was going straight to hell for that one. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH Jerry Britton wrote: > Day Three -- > Bob Yagodich, a fellow member of the Northern Central Chapter, took "Best of > Show" for his HO scale model of a ballast cleaning train. The effort > required 600 hours of labor. I caught more than one person off-guard when I > told them it actually worked..."it pulls up your dirty cork and lays down > new cork!" > ----------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 09:51:07 -0400 Subject: HO P-70KR and P-70GSR (was [PRR] Convention Day Two) From: Jerry Britton On 5/7/01 7:33 AM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: > Well, all of us that couldn't make the convention are looking forward to > further updates. The mention of Lazer Horizon's new coach sides was a pleasant > surprise. A P70kr and gsr were products I had no idea were coming. Laser Horizons clued me in a few days before the convention, but I had some questions about what was being used as the core kit, so I did not make an announcement. To my delight, they brought both sides to the convention and I sold every set I had!!! They are now listed at "Merchandise Service" and available for ordering. Note that you also need an ECW P-70 car kit to use as the core. Currently the web site shows the other ECW core kit and related items...please disregard these. This is incorrect and will be fixed this evening. You can find the new sides in the New Arrivals listing at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/ms_new.html or on the Laser Horizons page at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/ms_laser.html Neil Campbell, Northern Central Chapter, bought a few, commuted home to Bel Air, Maryland, and returned on Saturday to say that he stayed up and mocked up the first car! Reports from cohorts who went to a local drinking establishment (in lieue of the banquet) say Neil promises a train full of these cars in the modeling room next year. Neil, we'll hold you to it!!! > Not having > the new coach book yet, but expecting to get it this weekend, I'm not sure > right off what the kR version looks like exactly. But the gsr version is an > old favorite. What's got my curiosity working is what to use for a roof? Or > does it match the roof section available from Bethlehem Car Works, the plastic > one? (Almost seems though that the roof tapered down toward the ends, but I'm > not looking at plans and am trying to recollect). This certainly shows > promise. Laser Horizons made the sides as replacements for an ECW P-70 car kit. I do not know if this is 100% accurate or not, or if a specific P-70 car kit (since they offer several) should be recommended. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 09:55:51 EDT From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: P70Kr and P70 GSr Andy & folks, Thanks for the reply and the info. This leads me to a couple questions and speculations. First off, as regards photos,etc of the GsR version, are there any photos in the Morning Sun Color Guide 1? And it seems that not too long ago I stumbled accross a drawing in a 60'/70's era RMC of this car. Do I remember correctly, or is this only a similar class of car? As regards roofs and basic bodies, I was was sort of considering the possibilities of using the ECW P70 FAR kit for the basis. (And don't they offer some sort of basic car body that has an arch roof with a lowered profile?). Other potential roofs might include, aside from the AHM/Riv streamliner you mentioned, the streamline roofs from Brass Car Sides or Northeastern, but without drawings or broadside photos it's hard for me to judge. Too bad the new book doesn't include these. Is there anything in the NJ-Int or old Wayner books? Just seems like an irresistable project and a natural car for the Buffalo Day Express or Red Bird. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 09:57:48 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] P70Kr and P70 GSr From: Jerry Britton On 5/7/01 9:21 AM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > I'm thrilled. As anyone lurking on this list for a while knows, I have > been asking for these cars for a long time. I'll be watching your site > next week Jerry. You don't have to wait that long...look now! > > But I'm confused about the roof. Both of these cars useda flush end, > low profile, arch roof to match contemporary streamlined cars. I don't > see how a standard P70 kit can form a core for them! I will probably > continue with my old habits of usenig a brass floor and a shortened roof > salvaged from an old AHM/Rivarossi streamliner. Your feedback is appreciated. Perhaps a streamlined ECW core kit should be recommended, with the roof being shortened. Care to elaborate on this possibility? > > BTW Barry, bad news. The new PRR Coach book, good as it is, has NO > pictures of either of these classes :-( The preface of this book reports that this is a "first look" at coaches. I suspect there will be another volume on coaches. The second volume will be released this summer, on Sleepers, to be followed by Parlor Cars. > > BTW2 I will have to alert my B&M friends here in NEw England who have > been anxious to build an Eastwind. The P70k was the correct car for > them. > Yes, it is, hence the name of the company offering the P-70kR's in N scale...East Wind Manufacturing!!! They delivered their first batch of sides at the convention as well. Their PLC-70 coach-cafe's will follow shortly. Their new 2D-P5 trucks sold very well. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 10:04:10 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Northern Division ETT 1955 From: Jerry Britton Anyone have a Northern Division employe timetable from 1955? I've been looking for such an ETT from 9/26/54, but it has been suggested that possibly there was no reprint as of this date. The person has a copy from 4/26/54 that has pasted in updates through 3/55. The timetable is #6. This person also has ETT #5, which is dated 4/26/53. Both suggest that perhaps the Northern Division was only updated annually. If someone has one from 4/26/55, it would be helpful to know if it is #7 or #8. Thank you! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 10:06:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: P70Kr and P70 GSr From: Jerry Britton On 5/7/01 9:55 AM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: > Is there anything in the NJ-Int or old Wayner books? The previous sides offered by Laser Horizons were created using the fairly detailed drawings from my copy of the "Pullman Standard Library, Volume Four: The Pennsylvania Railroad". Laser Horizons created the P-70KR and P-70GSR sides from less detailed drawings in one of the Wayner books. If the Wayner created sides prove to be "close enough", then that certainly opens the doors to a whole bunch of additional sides!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 10:10:04 EDT Subject: [PRR] Philadelphia Chapter If you are an officer or member of the Philadelphia Chapter please contact me off-line. dwa9975062@aol.com Dayna ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 10:18:22 EDT From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: P70Kr and P70 GSr/ "Additional Sides" Jerry, Let's hope your comment about opening possibilities for additional sides comes true! It seems Lazer Horizons has broken a barrier, so to speak, by introducing a modernized, non-lightweight car side in plastic. Think of how it would be if they did a side for a modernized diner, the modernized PB70 combine, and maybe a 6-6 and 8-5 sleeper. (The 8s-lounge seems too good to even hope for). I'm getting pretty spoiled already with all the new products coming out, so will be more than happy to get some of their coach sides as it is. Please forward my best regards to Lazer, as I believe you're the exclusive dealer for them? This is getting good. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 10:22:45 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: P70Kr and P70 GSr/ "Additional Sides" From: Jerry Britton On 5/7/01 10:18 AM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: > Let's hope your comment about opening possibilities for additional sides comes > true! It seems Lazer Horizons has broken a barrier, so to speak, by > introducing a modernized, non-lightweight car side in plastic. Think of how it > would be if they did a side for a modernized diner, the modernized PB70 > combine, and maybe a 6-6 and 8-5 sleeper. (The 8s-lounge seems too good to > even hope for). I'm getting pretty spoiled already with all the new products > coming out, so will be more than happy to get some of their coach sides as it > is. Please forward my best regards to Lazer, as I believe you're the exclusive > dealer for them? Yes, I was told I was the exclusive dealer for them, though not by formal agreement. Laser Horizons has been great at getting me the sides I ask for. I will review the Wayner book this week and make recommendations, perhaps even conducting a poll first. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 10:40:58 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] Re: P70Kr and P70 GSr Barry, The P70FAR had a low profile arch roof, but with rounded ends - not the flush ends of contemporary streamlined cars, and the K and GSR. My favorite (and perhaps only known) photo of a GSR was in a copy of the PENNSY magazine reporting on the dedication of 1361 at the Horseshoe Curve. Apparently a special train had been arranged to take visitors to the site. The train was arrayed on the curve, behind the K4 and dignitaries. It was a solid string of GSRs. It was a rainy day and the cars glistened when wet! Unfortunately the umbrellas obscured a lot of the details. regards, Andy Miller ==================== BPX29@aol.com wrote: > > Andy & folks, > Thanks for the reply and the info. This leads me to a couple questions and speculations. First off, as regards photos,etc of the GsR version, are there any photos in the Morning Sun Color Guide 1? And it seems that not too long ago I stumbled accross a drawing in a 60'/70's era RMC of this car. Do I remember correctly, or is this only a similar class of car? > As regards roofs and basic bodies, I was was sort of considering the possibilities of using the ECW P70 FAR kit for the basis. (And don't they offer some sort of basic car body that has an arch roof with a lowered profile?). Other potential roofs might include, aside from the AHM/Riv streamliner you mentioned, the streamline roofs from Brass Car Sides or Northeastern, but without drawings or broadside photos it's hard for me to judge. > Too bad the new book doesn't include these. Is there anything in the NJ-Int or old Wayner books? Just seems like an irresistable project and a natural car for the Buffalo Day Express or Red Bird. > Regards, > Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 12:03:11 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: P70Kr and P70 GSr From: Jerry Britton On 5/7/01 9:21 AM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > But I'm confused about the roof. Both of these cars useda flush end, > low profile, arch roof to match contemporary streamlined cars. I don't > see how a standard P70 kit can form a core for them! Andy & List: Tonight I will edit the description of the P-70GSR and P-70KR cars to read something like: "This car had a flush-end, low-profile, arch roof to match contemporary streamlined cars. To that end, a cut-down Eastern Car Works 85-foot core kit should be used as the proper basis for this car. However, less endeavorous modelers may wish to use these ready-fit sides as replacement sides for the Eastern Car Works P-70FAR or P-70FBR car kit, which features a rounded roof end." Does this sound appropriate? Thanks for your input! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 12:16:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] P70Kr and P70 GSr In a message dated 5/7/01 8:29:22 AM Central Daylight Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << But I'm confused about the roof. Both of these cars useda flush end, low profile, arch roof to match contemporary streamlined cars. I don't see how a standard P70 kit can form a core for them! >> I agree with you, Andy. Question is what ends do we use to go with an AHM/Rivarossi roof? I will have to check my P70FAR ends to see what needs to be done to use those. It looks like the Pennsy just added a sheetmetal piece to fill the gap. There is a photo of P70GS on page 13 of the PRR Color Guide and photos and drawings of P70KR in June, 1981 Rails Northeast. Does the Laser kit duplicate the rivets? That would be a breakthrough, to say nothing of being necessary. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 12:41:33 EDT From: Prr1187@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: P70Kr and P70 GSr In a message dated Mon, 7 May 2001 10:05:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: < Andy & folks, Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: P70Kr and P70 GSr Jerry, While I have only seen a few pictures of P70Ks and P70 GSRs, all of them, and the PRR diagram books show these cars only with a flush end roof. I am not sure of the exact length, but I think the PS streamlined core kit is the closest fit. But it probably will require shortening (that's cutting a piece off - not adding Crisco) There are other makers of Core kits (Brass car sides, Am Ltd, et al) Someone might have the right core. BTW if you must use an ECW out of the box, the FAR has the correct height. I think the FBR arch roof is too high (and has a rounded end). Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > > On 5/7/01 9:21 AM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > > > But I'm confused about the roof. Both of these cars useda flush end, > > low profile, arch roof to match contemporary streamlined cars. I don't > > see how a standard P70 kit can form a core for them! > > Andy & List: > > Tonight I will edit the description of the P-70GSR and P-70KR cars to read > something like: > > "This car had a flush-end, low-profile, arch roof to match contemporary > streamlined cars. To that end, a cut-down Eastern Car Works 85-foot core kit > should be used as the proper basis for this car. However, less endeavorous > modelers may wish to use these ready-fit sides as replacement sides for the > Eastern Car Works P-70FAR or P-70FBR car kit, which features a rounded roof > end." > > Does this sound appropriate? Thanks for your input! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 14:34:56 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] P70Kr and P70 GSr As I recall, the ends on both of theses cars were std P70 ends, with sheetmetal above the letterboard continuation to mate up to the arch roof. I also seem to recall having read somewhere that the rivets had been welded in place and ground off to present the smoothside appearance of a streamlined car. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 5/7/01 8:29:22 AM Central Daylight Time, > asmiller@mitre.org writes: > > << But I'm confused about the roof. Both of these cars useda flush end, > low profile, arch roof to match contemporary streamlined cars. I don't > see how a standard P70 kit can form a core for them! >> > > I agree with you, Andy. Question is what ends do we use to go with an > AHM/Rivarossi roof? I will have to check my P70FAR ends to see what needs to > be done to use those. It looks like the Pennsy just added a sheetmetal > piece to fill the gap. > > There is a photo of P70GS on page 13 of the PRR Color Guide and photos and > drawings of P70KR in June, 1981 Rails Northeast. > > Does the Laser kit duplicate the rivets? That would be a breakthrough, to say > nothing of being necessary. > > Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 15:02:44 EDT From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: P70Kr and P70 GSr Andy & folks, Well, I've been thinking about this a bit, and have to do a bit of snooping around when I get home. First off, I'll have to dig up that Julian Cavilier drawing of a potential GSR and see if that's what it really is. Then I've got to compare the Brass Car Sides and Northeastern roof stock to the drawing and the FAR roof. If things match up, the flat-ended roof situation is resolved. But there may be another pet project a guy could bash out of this. The FAR sides might provide a thermopane window strip and vestibule door for modernizing a PB70 combine, and the FAR roof could still be used on this car. The ends and floor could serve with the GSR sides, and if using the skirted version, much underbody detail could become optional. (And at $5 for the underbody details from ECW, a/c seems like it could be added). This has gotten my curiosity up, and will try to report a few observations later. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Convention Day Two Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 15:35:51 -0400 A follow up to Jerry's post on day 2. The N&W safety program was a hoot. It seems the photographer used only one pose to show someone getting injured. Win Gross's talk was good and put to rest the question whether a derailment took out Paoli tower's bay window. The talk on towers was a little long as was the Crestline roundhouse. I did not get to the talks on car classification or PRR paintings. Then since most of the layout tours were down near York we went to dinner in York at a place famous for it's waitresses. Saw three layouts. Two HO in York (emigsburg) and an O near Lake Meade. All were great and I thank the hosts and their wives for being so accommodating. Chris Chany - Subject: [PRR] Convention Day Two As a vendor in the vendor room, I cannot comment on the seminars of the day, someone else will have to do that. The vendor room was unusually busy all morning, then thinning out during the afternoon and evening, as expected. I don't know what everyone else's big sellers were, but my two top items were the HO scale Athearn Genesis F7A/B sets and the Railroad Press book on "PRR Coaches". Hell Gate Models delivered their N scale B-60b Baggage and Messenger cars. They only deal direct, at least for now. They look good and I received my first 10. East Wind delivered their N scale P-70kR sides; kits to follow. Laser Horizons unexpectedly delivered their HO scale P-70kR and P-70gsR sides. I was sold out within 3 hours!!! Instead of an ECW core kit, these require an ECW P-70 kit for which you use the Laser Horizons sides. (The ability to order these will be on the Merchandise Service web site this coming week.) At the movies last evening there was some great locomotive footage...some that I hope makes it to video some day soon. A round of laughter occurred when a T-1 was moving right along when, all of a sudden, the front set of drivers started slipping! A PRR promo film from just prior to the merger was shown. It hailed the PRR's investments in non-railroad ventures, much to the chagrin of the audience. Groans were heard when we saw Penn Station coming down...in color! And then the narrator hailed the forthcoming merger with the New York Central...duh!!! Being a commuter, I left at 10:30. They were continuing with slide shows. It's now 6:15 a.m. and I am off to the "I Love The Smell of Diesel Fumes in the Morning" breakfast on the concrete (nee iron) bridge at Enola. See ya!!! - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ThreeButchers@cs.com Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 17:30:00 EDT Subject: [PRR] P70gsR Question List; BTW....Did the P70gsR have full-width diaphragms as delivered? My photos are circa 1962 Thanks in advance! Brian Butcher ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 18:01:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] P70Kr and P70 GSr In a message dated 5/7/01 1:35:23 PM Central Daylight Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << I also seem to recall having read somewhere that the rivets had been welded in place and ground off to present the smoothside appearance of a streamlined car. >> I don't know about the GSR. The KR rivets show up in the photos. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Richard Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] P70gsR Question Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 20:54:33 -0400 Brian, Yes both the P70Kr and P70GsR had full diaphrams. So if you due your cars in FoM you could fudge on the sheet metal extendsion on the end of the roofs. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 5:30 PM Subject: [PRR] P70gsR Question > List; > > BTW....Did the P70gsR have full-width diaphragms as delivered? My photos are > circa 1962 > > Thanks in advance! > > Brian Butcher > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 12:04:07 -0400 Subject: [PRR] 85' Smoothside Passenger Car Sides -- HO & N Scale From: Jerry Britton Please respond off-list... I'd like to know what 85' smoothside passenger car sides are needed by modelers that are not currently offered by Laser Horizons. The list of Laser Horizons current offerings may be viewed at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com/forms/shopping/ms_laser.html When responding about additional sides, please reference the PRR class, builder, and builder plan or lot number. For reference, take a look at Rob's site at http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html Remember, I am only asking about 85' smoothsides at this time!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 14:39:24 -0400 Subject: [PRR] POC85 Observation Lounge Coach (Buffet) From: Jerry Britton I'm building "The General / The Trail Blazer" as it existed in 1954, according to the New York Division "Makeup of Trains" book. At the tail end is an "Observation Lounge Coach (Buffet)", PRR class POC85. While Rob's site may not be all-inclusive, it does list the following POC85's: POC85, Parlor-Observation Car, Budd, Car #1126 POC85AR, Parlor-Observation Car, Budd, no additional info POC85B, Parlor-Bar-Lounge-Observation Car, Budd, #7128 "George Washington" and #7129 "Alexander Hamilton" POC85C, Parlor-Telephone-Bar-Lounge-Observation Car, Budd, #7126 "Benjamin Franklin" and #7127 "Martha Washington" Does anyone know which of these cars, or classes, might have been assigned to "The General / The Trail Blazer" based on photos or consist reports? Even a consist report from an earlier or later date would suggest the car remained in that assignment. Related, if you can't determine which one was in this train, perhaps we can eliminate others. A POC85 was also assigned to train #21, "Indianapolis Limited". Plus, I don't know the makeups of trains originating/destinating in Washington, D.C. Perhaps some POC85's were assigned to them as well. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 15:09:25 EDT From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] POC85 Observation Lounge Coach (Buffet) Jerry, I can check some of this out later, but I don't think any of the cars you mentioned ever ran on the General/Trailblazer. The cars used on that train were the cars originally on the Trailblazer, and the combined train used to carry the Pullmans in the front of the train, a reversal of the usual makeup of passenger trains. I think the book on the "Blue Ribbon Fleet" also makes mention of the cars used on the trailblazer, and the obs car, like the rest of the consist, was possibly a rebuild. The obs car on the Indy Ltd came off the Jeffersonian. That all-coach train was discontinued and replaced by the general-purpose Indy train, which ran very close to the times of the Spirit of St.Louis, as the Jeffersonian had. Perhaps the consist book may also show the sleepers being forward on this train as well, to allow coach passengers to reach their obs car without walking through the sleepers. Once again, the Kalmbach book should have some coverage of this equipment. Additional sources might be "Zephyrs to Amtrak" and "Passenger Train Consists" (? exact title)by Wayner.One of the Dorin books on coach trains also address this matter. I can check later, as the built date, lot and plan numbers of all lightweight cars are included, as well as many floor plans. But I think you're looking at a smoothside, round-end car for the General. Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 15:45:54 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] POC85 Observation Lounge Coach (Buffet) Greetings to Jerry and the List: POC85B, Parlor-Bar-Lounge-Observation Car, Budd, #7128 "George Washington" and #7129 "Alexander Hamilton" POC85C, Parlor-Telephone-Bar-Lounge-Observation Car, Budd, #7126 "Benjamin Franklin" and #7127 "Martha Washington" These stainless-steel cars were assigned to Congressional and possibly Senator service NY-Washington. They were part of the PRR's order to Budd Co. for the re-equipping of those services, circa 1952. The last I saw the car Martha Washington, it was sitting derelict as a home for a proposed (or perhaps failed) retail business in downtown McKeesport, Pa., a few blocks from the nearest tracks (P&LE/B&O/CSXT). Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 17:34:57 -0600 From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: [PRR] PRR cabin car(s), Maybrook, NY Hi, There are 2 PRR cabin cars listed in Maybrook, NY: PRR #?, Class N5, Tourist Info Center, painted and sometimes reported as NH C512; PRR 477656?/PC/CR 22824?, Class N5B, Museum behind Library, there is some question on the number. Along with the obvious questions marked by "?", I wonder if these could be 2 reports of the same cabin car? Help me if you can I'm feeling down! Thanks, Roger -- S. Roger Kirkpatrick, 109 So. Madison St., Cortez, CO 81321-3733. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 21:56:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] POC85 Observation Lounge Coach (Buffet) From: Jerry Britton On 5/8/01 3:09 PM, BPX29@aol.com at (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: > I can check some of this out later, but I don't think any of the cars you > mentioned ever ran on the General/Trailblazer. The cars used on that train > were the cars originally on the Trailblazer, and the combined train used to > carry the Pullmans in the front of the train, a reversal of the usual makeup > of passenger trains. I think the book on the "Blue Ribbon Fleet" also makes > mention of the cars used on the trailblazer, and the obs car, like the rest of > the consist, was possibly a rebuild. What? You care to argue against a "Makeup of Trains" book published by the PRR itself? Did you work at Sunnyside in '54? (This is light-hearted jabbing, not a flame!) The "Makeup of Trains" from 4/54 reads "POC85" as the last car. Checked "Blue Ribbon Fleet" and found two agreeable entries... Page 64 lists "POC85AR #1134" in a consist of 1949. Page 128 shows a "POC85AR" in a consist of 1952. Looks like the specific plan of the car is now confirmed. Reasonable chance the #1134 remained in assignment through '54. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Horse Car Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 08:13:14 -0400 Listers, Does anyone know if the PRR horse cars ever got to Saratoga NY? If someone has a picture can they also give me the car name. Thanks Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 08:58:14 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] POC85 Observation Lounge Coach (Buffet) Plans and photos for the POC85AR appeared in Rail Northeast. They were converted P70s. There were two versions - one with the original P70 windows and the other with large thermopane windows - looking very much like a round end P70FAR. This latter one is probably the 1954 survivor which ran on the General. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > > On 5/8/01 3:09 PM, BPX29@aol.com at (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: > > > I can check some of this out later, but I don't think any of the cars you > > mentioned ever ran on the General/Trailblazer. The cars used on that train > > were the cars originally on the Trailblazer, and the combined train used to > > carry the Pullmans in the front of the train, a reversal of the usual makeup > > of passenger trains. I think the book on the "Blue Ribbon Fleet" also makes > > mention of the cars used on the trailblazer, and the obs car, like the rest of > > the consist, was possibly a rebuild. > > What? You care to argue against a "Makeup of Trains" book published by the > PRR itself? Did you work at Sunnyside in '54? (This is light-hearted > jabbing, not a flame!) > > The "Makeup of Trains" from 4/54 reads "POC85" as the last car. > > Checked "Blue Ribbon Fleet" and found two agreeable entries... > > Page 64 lists "POC85AR #1134" in a consist of 1949. > > Page 128 shows a "POC85AR" in a consist of 1952. > > Looks like the specific plan of the car is now confirmed. Reasonable chance > the #1134 remained in assignment through '54. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 09:01:40 EDT From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Horse Car Chris, I would also be interested in answers to your question. By way of a semi-educated guess, I would venture to say it was quite possible or probable that Pennsy horse cars wandered up there. For one thing, Pennsy had a lot of these cars. For another, Saratoga is in the same racing association as the Jersey and Baltimore tracks, though how far back this affiliation goes I can't say. I do recall seeing photos of these cars being loaded at the Atlantic City track in the early 60's, in their waning days of horse transport, though their destination wasn't mentioned. I'd expect such traffic to be much heavier in the 40's-50's. The routing up to D&H territory is a bit obscure to me, if they ran directly up there from PRR points. Possibly they ran by way of Belmont Park service, then over to the NYC; otherwise they could have run on the Jersey side, via Jersey City, but that would imply using NYC's West Shore routing and I'm not sure how late passenger/mail trains ran that way up to the D&H connection at Albany. Certainly it still existed in the 1950's. Seems this could be an interesting field of study of itself, but I think the short answer would be that such cars could quite logicly end up at Saratoga. (A possible info source could be John Nehrich over at the NEB&W site. Those folks have done extensive studies of D&H traffic in the late 'steam era', and could well have some documentation). regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 09:13:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] POC85 Observation Lounge Coach (Buffet) From: Jerry Britton On 5/9/01 8:58 AM, Andrew S. Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > Plans and photos for the POC85AR appeared in Rail Northeast. They were > converted P70s. There were two versions - one with the original P70 > windows and the other with large thermopane windows - looking very much > like a round end P70FAR. This latter one is probably the 1954 survivor > which ran on the General. > P70 converts? Interesting!!! Do you recall what issue of Rails Northeast carried the plans? Hank Mummert reported to me off-list that there were four POC85AR's, numbered 1132-1136. The 1949 consist report I reported this morning included #1134. You mention "1954 survivor": The 1954 New York Division "Makeup of Trains" calls for the POC85AR, so two cars, not one, would be required to protect the service (both directions). The same document also calls for a "POC85" for train #21, the "Indianapolis Limited"...but again, no suffix for the class. Only additional research found that "The General"'s car was a "POC85AR". The plans on Rob's site show the large windows. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 09:27:43 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] POC85 Observation Lounge Coach (Buffet) From: Jerry Britton On 5/9/01 9:13 AM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: >> Plans and photos for the POC85AR appeared in Rail Northeast. They were >> converted P70s. There were two versions - one with the original P70 >> windows and the other with large thermopane windows - looking very much >> like a round end P70FAR. This latter one is probably the 1954 survivor >> which ran on the General. >> > P70 converts? Interesting!!! Wait a minute...an 85' car converted from a 70' car? Nah, I don't think so! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 09:33:20 EDT From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] POC85 Observation Lounge Coach (Buffet) Jerry, Seems like this is coming together with what you need. By way of notes, the series, according to Wayner, of cars 1132-1136 actually amounted to 5 cars, not 4. Two were used on the Trailblazer, but three were needed for the Jeffersonian, on account of it's longer turn-around time. When the Jeff was dropped, and replaced by the Indy Ltd, the obs cars were assigned to this train. This could be covered by 2 cars, and for awhile there was a spare from the series. One of the Wayner books covers this train as well, but as it ran only a few minutes off the time of the Spirit of St.Louis, it wasn't real long until it became merely a few set-out cars operating in the St.Louis train. How long the former Jeffersonian obs cars lasted in this service I don't know, but it could hardly have been past 1955 or so. Once again, I can certainly check later today. Now, with those GSR sides coming out in HO, a fella has some nice options, as they ran in both the Trailblazer and Jeffersonian. Suppose they'd ever do 'em in N scale for you converts? Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] POC85 Observation Lounge Coach (Buffet) Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 06:55:58 -0700 On Wed, 09 May 2001 09:27:43 -0400 Jerry Britton wrote: > On 5/9/01 9:13 AM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) > wrote: > > >> Plans and photos for the POC85AR appeared in Rail > Northeast. They were > >> converted P70s. There were two versions - one with the > original P70 > >> windows and the other with large thermopane windows - > looking very much > >> like a round end P70FAR. This latter one is probably > the 1954 survivor > >> which ran on the General. > >> > > P70 converts? Interesting!!! > > Wait a minute...an 85' car converted from a 70' car? Nah, > I don't think so! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing > list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message > "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] POC85 Observation Lounge Coach (Buffet) Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 06:56:18 -0700 Jerry, Uh... let me look this up... yup... thought so... A P-70 is 80 feet long. Actually 80' 3 3/4". Not 70 feet. Hmmmm.... Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Wed, 09 May 2001 09:27:43 -0400 Jerry Britton wrote: > On 5/9/01 9:13 AM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) > wrote: > > >> Plans and photos for the POC85AR appeared in Rail > Northeast. They were > >> converted P70s. There were two versions - one with the > original P70 > >> windows and the other with large thermopane windows - > looking very much > >> like a round end P70FAR. This latter one is probably > the 1954 survivor > >> which ran on the General. > >> > > P70 converts? Interesting!!! > > Wait a minute...an 85' car converted from a 70' car? Nah, > I don't think so! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing > list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message > "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 09:00:33 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] POC85 Observation Lounge Coach (Buffet) Jerry said: >Wait a minute...an 85' car converted from a 70' car? Nah, I don't think so! Um Jerry, Get out your calipers and measure a P70 ;^) The designation in the car class did not refer to overall length, but length of the main compartment (or something like that). For example I believe that the MP54 and BM62 are the same length overall. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 10:10:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] POC85 Observation Lounge Coach (Buffet) From: Jerry Britton On 5/9/01 10:00 AM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > Jerry said: > >> Wait a minute...an 85' car converted from a 70' car? Nah, I don't think so! > > Um Jerry, > > Get out your calipers and measure a P70 ;^) The designation in the car > class did not refer to overall length, but length of the main compartment > (or something like that). For example I believe that the MP54 and BM62 are > the same length overall. > Yup...forgot the Standard Railroad of the World did not have a standard meaasuring system! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 10:22:03 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] POC85 Observation Lounge Coach (Buffet) In a message dated 5/9/01 9:00:40 AM Central Daylight Time, billd@gci-net.com writes: << A P-70 is 80 feet long. Actually 80' 3 3/4" >> You have hit upon the inconsistency in car classification. The 70 in P70 and most older cars is the length of the passenger compartment not including vestibules. I do not know why Pennsy changed that system in the lightweight era (a misnomer I assume if the POC85 was converted),unless the confusion with cars with one versus two vestibules was a factor. I hadn't thought about it much and when the original Middle Division plans for the P85B were announced over 10 years ago, when they said they were going to also do a POC85R observation, I was thinking (actually I wasn't thinking :-)) it was a new postwar car I wasn't aware of. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 10:23:42 EDT Subject: [PRR] General-Trailblazer turning (was POC85 ) I have seen the combined General-Trailblazer with the observation-coach section on the headend. Was this just the Philly-NY leg or did they stop turning the train at some point in time? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 10:25:53 EDT Subject: [PRR] Rivets (was POC85) Unless I missed the answer, I haven't heard a reply as to whether the Laser Horizons sides have rivet detail. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 10:28:57 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: [PRR] PRR Modelers' Meet At the PRRT&HS meeting John Buroughs talked to several people about the North Shore Model RR Club an what the Santa Fe modelers have done there. John and I are both members of the North Shore Model RR Club in Wakefield Ma. For the last two years, the club has sponsored a Santa Fe Modelers meet. We have drawn up to 40-50 SF people for an all-ATSF operating session on our large, well sceniked HO club layout. The SF folks brought all sorts of beautiful visiting SF equipment for the op session. Now, the NS club models a ficticious RR in the Pocahontas region. We haul lots of coal through the mountains and have a large steel mill and port facilities for shipping the stuff in and out. We certainly match the PRR far better than the SF. (It is kind of sad to see the SF fans declare the steel mill to be an orange grove in a great stretch of their imagination.) So the obvious conclusion was drawn by John and I and the other PRR modelers in the club, that our better match and closer geographic proximity to the prototype, means we should do at least as much for our group. The other club members agreed at our last meeting. So this is a tentative invitaion. Let me know if you are interested in such a PRR weekend at the North Shore Club. If enough people show interest we will make arragements for later this year or early next year. The SF group arranged for several dealers, SF Clinics, and group rates at the local hotel. They even arranged for a "Fred Harvey" dinner at a local restaurant. I'm afraid we have no couterpart to the last item. Our diner would be from the house menu. BTW if you want to see the NS club, we have been in MR twice, most recently in Aug 1999 (I think). We were on the cover with a Chesapeake and Hudson F unit stopped at the Charleston (WV) station. It featured an article on passenger train operation. (BTW, John Burroughs took the cover foto). We also have a website at: http://www.nsmrc.org It show lots of fotos taken at the SF meet. Lets hear it from the NE PRR modelers and fans - a meet at Wakefield Mass! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 10:32:55 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] POC85 Observation Lounge Coach (Buffet) Sorry about that. You are correct. I was thinking of the POC70s. The POC85s were coach versions of the famous blunt end sleeper-obs's built for the Broadway (2 cars, 2-1) and several other trains (7 cars 2-1-1). But if i'm not mistaken (and would be the second time this morning) these plans also appeared in RNE. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== Jerry Britton wrote: > > On 5/9/01 9:13 AM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > > >> Plans and photos for the POC85AR appeared in Rail Northeast. They were > >> converted P70s. There were two versions - one with the original P70 > >> windows and the other with large thermopane windows - looking very much > >> like a round end P70FAR. This latter one is probably the 1954 survivor > >> which ran on the General. > >> > > P70 converts? Interesting!!! > > Wait a minute...an 85' car converted from a 70' car? Nah, I don't think so! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 10:35:13 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] POC85 Observation Lounge Coach (Buffet) P70s were named for the revenue space between vestibule bulkheads. Later the PRR decided to name car classes for the length between buffers, thus P85. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== billd@gci-net.com wrote: > > Jerry, > > Uh... > > let me look this up... > > yup... > > thought so... > > A P-70 is 80 feet long. Actually 80' 3 3/4". > > Not 70 feet. > > Hmmmm.... > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 10:41:34 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Rivets (was POC85) From: Jerry Britton On 5/9/01 10:25 AM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: > Unless I missed the answer, I haven't heard a reply as to whether the Laser > Horizons sides have rivet detail. > No, they do not. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 10:56:48 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRRT&HS e-NEWS A special annual meeting edition of the e-NEWS will be issued tomorrow Thursday, 10 May 2001. Find out what happened during the Board meetings, the annual meeting and at other events. Bob Johnson's Archive Committee report and Dave Scott's financial statements have been posted to the e-NEWS "files" section. In addition Philadelphia Chapter flyers on Pennsy Days and their 25th Anniversary Banquet at Strasburg on June 2-3, 2001 have also been posted to the "files" section. Check out the action at Strasburg. If you are not yet subscribed (its free) you may do so by sending a blank message to: PRRTHSe-NEWS-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Al - Editor "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [CYBER] PRRT&HS e-NEWS Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 10:56:48 -0400 A special annual meeting edition of the e-NEWS will be issued tomorrow Thursday, 10 May 2001. Find out what happened during the Board meetings, the annual meeting and at other events. Bob Johnson's Archive Committee report and Dave Scott's financial statements have been posted to the e-NEWS "files" section. In addition Philadelphia Chapter flyers on Pennsy Days and their 25th Anniversary Banquet at Strasburg on June 2-3, 2001 have also been posted to the "files" section. Check out the action at Strasburg. If you are not yet subscribed (its free) you may do so by sending a blank message to: PRRTHSe-NEWS-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Al - Editor ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This list ("Cyber-Talk") is for discussion of Cyber Chapter (PRRT&HS) business only. All general modeling and/or Pennsy discussion should take place on "PRR-Talk". For assistance with this list, send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To access the "Members Only" section of the web site, click on a link and, when prompted, enter the user name "member" and the password "standardrr". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS e-NEWS Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 10:56:48 -0400 A special annual meeting edition of the e-NEWS will be issued tomorrow Thursday, 10 May 2001. Find out what happened during the Board meetings, the annual meeting and at other events. Bob Johnson's Archive Committee report and Dave Scott's financial statements have been posted to the e-NEWS "files" section. In addition Philadelphia Chapter flyers on Pennsy Days and their 25th Anniversary Banquet at Strasburg on June 2-3, 2001 have also been posted to the "files" section. Check out the action at Strasburg. If you are not yet subscribed (its free) you may do so by sending a blank message to: PRRTHSe-NEWS-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Al - Editor ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 11:41:54 EDT From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Modelers' Meet (It is kind of sad to see the SF fans declare the steel mill to be an orange grove in a great stretch of their imagination.) They should have left it a steel mill. Kaiser steel had a huge mill in Fontana (LA basin out toward San Bernadino) that was later California Steel and is now an auto race track that the ATSF switched hourly through daily. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:09:52 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Modelers' Meet > So this is a tentative invitaion. Let me know if you are interested in >such a PRR weekend at the North Shore Club. If enough people show >interest we will make arragements for later this year or early next >year. Andy, Sounds like a great idea! I'd love to attend but the obligations are starting to build up...and its a bit of a haul... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] General-Trailblazer turning Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:27:28 -0400 Bob, I don't think it was run backward to Philly and then reversed because it wouldn't have gone to 30th St. It would have stopped at "North Philadelphia the only stop in Philadelphia". Wouldn't the NY and Wash. sections join in Harrisburg? Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 14:48:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] General-Trailblazer turning From: Jerry Britton On 5/9/01 2:27 PM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > I don't think it was run backward to Philly and then reversed because it > wouldn't have gone to 30th St. It would have stopped at "North Philadelphia > the only stop in Philadelphia". > > Wouldn't the NY and Wash. sections join in Harrisburg? > As of 1954, there was no Washington section for this train, nor were cars added/removed at Harrisburg for interchange to Washington trains. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 15:05:29 EDT From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] General-Trailblazer turning Jerry, You're correct on the Washington section in your era. I don't think that train started carrying Washington cars until the Liberty Ltd fell out of that market in one of the big shuffles taking place around 1957. It definitely had a Washington section by the late 50's, as I inadvertently got stuck on the DC segment while my family was on the Philley/NY main section around that time. Gave me a real scare, being 10 or 12 years old, but nothing serious happened thanks to the good old Pennsy personnel of the time. The crewmen always seemed to be much more courteous and amiable than their reputation sometimes implies. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 20:36:15 -0400 Subject: [PRR] FW: B28s Information Needed From: Jerry Britton ---------- From: "Chuck Friedlein" Reply-To: ironhorse@sprintmail.com Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 15:35:59 -0700 To: "Jerry Britton" Subject: B28s Information Needed Greetings to the List, I'm looking for some information regarding some painting details on B28s 0-6-0 switchers that are not addressed in the PR&IA (former name of the PRRT&HS) Special Publication #1. "The Painting of P.R.R. Locomotives and Tenders". Can anybody help me out, please? 1. What is the closest commercially available paint that would match "ordinary medium green" for the cab interior color? 2. How high are the numerals on the loco cab, and what was the horizontal length of the four digits of the number ? 4. Was there any other lettering on the loco cab--if so what was it, where was it, and what style and size lettering was used? 5. How high are the letters in PEN....NIA on the tender, and what was the horizontal length of the entire word? 6. Since these were freight switchers, would the outside window sashes possibly have been painted the "Dark Orange" color prior to 1938 and lasting through the 1938-1940 time frame possibly until a major loco or cab repaint was needed? Is there any known photo proof to this if the answer is "yes"? The book sort of implies the sashes were not "Dark Orange" at all on these types of locos, but it's not specifically stated one way or the other. Any help that anyone can provide in filling in these gaps of my knowledge would be most appreciated. Since this request is being forwarded to the list for me as the HTML function of my software can't be disabled, I will not be able to reply to the list in thanks for any help given, but if you include your e-mail address I'll try to reply off list to all who respond. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] Coal & Iron Police Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:43:14 -0400 Hello List: In trying to catch up on PRR-Talk, I noticed a 4/6 posting by Bob Netzlof concerning the Coal & Iron Police (C&IP). It is my understanding that the C&IP either formed the foundation for or became the Pennsylvania State Police (PSP). I have no references to prove it, but this is what I heard many years ago. Although they are a respectable police force now, I heard that the PSP were originally as brutal as the C&IP. I got this information from stories told in Dunbar, PA when I was a youngster. The difference today is, they hit you with a radar gun instead of a "billy" club. Carl P. Izzo PRRT&HS # 832 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty \(The Cos\)" Subject: [PRR] Holtwood critter Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 22:46:15 -0400 During one of my sweeps for something else, I came across this shot of a Holtwood critter http://www.wsbcos.com/holtcritter.jpg Cos Cos Communications, Inc. Home Page Rail Road Pages ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal & Iron Police Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 20:37:35 -0700 Carl, Corporate Police Brutality was something that was not limited to the mines of Pennsylvania...down here in deepest, darkest Arizona they tell the (true) story of the company police for the Copper Queen Mine in Bisbee, which when members of the International Workers of the World (a.k.a. The Wobblies) organized the workers, rounded up anybody who even looked like a union supporter, packed them into stock cars (of the EP&SW) and deported them (at gunpoint) to New Mexico, and dumped them out into the desert. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 00:08:43 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Set Up Running etc. Hi All, I bought the book "Set Up Running" at the convention at the recommendation of fellow list members. I am about 5 pages into it and can also recommend it. I have always enjoyed the story articles in the Keystone. This book is full of them. In a side note, I recently realized something about the labor aspect of steam engines. Most of us only know of them from photos, videos, and the occasional ride on a tourist line. I am good friends with a retired Long Island engineer who was a fireman right up to the end of steam. How many people on this list can say that they shoveled 20 to 40 TONS of coal during an average day only to go back the next day to do it again. My guess is not many. Railroading was HARD work. We have a romanticized view of the steam engine. I think Set Up Running will show us this while still being both informative and entertaining. My 2 very picky wishes are that it could have been written first hand, not by the engineer's son, and that he was an engineer on the Middle Division mainline. I am not insinuating that the author has published any errors, however, having heard first hand accounts, it is great to hear it directly form them. Thanks Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Set Up Running etc. Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 00:08:43 -0400 Hi All, I bought the book "Set Up Running" at the convention at the recommendation of fellow list members. I am about 5 pages into it and can also recommend it. I have always enjoyed the story articles in the Keystone. This book is full of them. In a side note, I recently realized something about the labor aspect of steam engines. Most of us only know of them from photos, videos, and the occasional ride on a tourist line. I am good friends with a retired Long Island engineer who was a fireman right up to the end of steam. How many people on this list can say that they shoveled 20 to 40 TONS of coal during an average day only to go back the next day to do it again. My guess is not many. Railroading was HARD work. We have a romanticized view of the steam engine. I think Set Up Running will show us this while still being both informative and entertaining. My 2 very picky wishes are that it could have been written first hand, not by the engineer's son, and that he was an engineer on the Middle Division mainline. I am not insinuating that the author has published any errors, however, having heard first hand accounts, it is great to hear it directly form them. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 23:12:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal & Iron Police << In a message dated 5/9/2001 5:59:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time, CPIZZO@worldnet.att.net writes: << In trying to catch up on PRR-Talk, I noticed a 4/6 posting by Bob Netzlof concerning the Coal & Iron Police (C&IP). It is my understanding that the C&IP either formed the foundation for or became the Pennsylvania State Police (PSP). I have no references to prove it, but this is what I heard many years ago. >> I don't believe this is accurate. The C&IP as I understand it was made up of persons employed by the coal and iron companies, but clothed with state powers. The C&IP lasted until the late 40s, from what I learned from old time miners and the old newspapers I read while doing the EBT book, by which time the State Police had been in existence for some time. Can anyone provide firm details? Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 05:22:46 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal & Iron Police --- Carl Izzo wrote: > Hello List: > > In trying to catch up on PRR-Talk, I noticed a 4/6 > posting by Bob Netzlof > concerning the Coal & Iron Police (C&IP). It is my > understanding that the > C&IP either formed the foundation for or became the > Pennsylvania State > Police (PSP). I have no references to prove it, but > this is what I heard > many years ago. For a couple of views on the matter, one dispassionate, one not, see: sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/State_Police/history/history.htm and: digital.library.arizona.edu/bisbee/docs/019.htm In the latter, use your browser's Find function to find "constabulary". Then look around to see the context in which the remark occurs. As I think I remarked then, "it's easy to get emotional on the subject, so it's hard to know where the truth is". For aficionados of mining/unions/history in Western Pa, look around starting at: www.lib.iup.edu/spec_coll/exhibits/table_of_contents ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 09:44:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Holtwood critter? ? Can't get " Critter Link " To work. Anyone eles having this problem ? ? Jon S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 09:52:11 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Holtwood critter ? ? part 2 I logged of and logged back on, retried the link. . . and the little oange critter poped up ! ! Sorry ! ! ! Jon S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:09:42 -0400 From: Drew McGhee Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal & Iron Police Greetings to Carl and the group, PSP's 'official' history can be found at http://sites.state.pa.us/PA_Exec/State_Police/history/history.htm Drew R. McGhee Altoona, PA drm6@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/d/r/drm6/ At 11:43 AM 05/09/2001 -0400, Carl Izzo wrote: >Hello List: > >In trying to catch up on PRR-Talk, I noticed a 4/6 posting by Bob Netzlof >concerning the Coal & Iron Police (C&IP). It is my understanding that the >C&IP either formed the foundation for or became the Pennsylvania State >Police (PSP). I have no references to prove it, but this is what I heard >many years ago. > >Although they are a respectable police force now, I heard that the PSP were >originally as brutal as the C&IP. I got this information from stories told >in Dunbar, PA when I was a youngster. The difference today is, they hit you >with a radar gun instead of a "billy" club. > >Carl P. Izzo >PRRT&HS # 832 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 09:32:13 -0500 From: Greg Johnson Subject: [PRR] NE Corridor Freight While on a business trip to DC last week, I noticed a number of industrial spurs (active & inactive) branching off the northeast corridor main line between BWI and Washington. I have four questions about the line: 1) Were there a lot of online freight customers on this line during the PRR era? 2) When are the current customers switched? 3) Who does the switching now? 4) Were there any public grade crossings on this high speed line during the 60's and 70's? Kudos to all those who put on the PRRH&TS meet in Camp Hill. The two days I got to spend there were great. Regards, Greg Johnson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 12:24:45 EDT From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Gloor Craft directions Does anybody have directions for the N6a and N6b caboose that you could scan or copy for me. I bought two kits on E bay and would prefer not to wing it. Please e mail me. thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] NE Corridor Freight Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 13:00:42 -0400 Greg, Can't answer #1 but 2) At night when Amtrak traffic slows down. 3) It use to be Conrail, not sure who got that area after the breakup: NS CSX or Conrail Shared Assets. 4)Definitely, I believe there were still some in the 90's Chris Chany Greg wrote: 1) Were there a lot of online freight customers on this line during the PRR era? 2) When are the current customers switched? 3) Who does the switching now? 4) Were there any public grade crossings on this high speed line during the 60's and 70's? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 12:06:54 -0500 From: "Colm Chomicky" Subject: Re: [PRR] Set Up Running etc. I too just recently purchased "Set Up Running" based on comments from this list. I bypassed this era of steam, industry, and human endurance having been born in Central Pennsylvania one year after the death of Oscar P. Orr, the engineer in this book. I can't help but think of some of the various auctions my father reported attending, often in some old Pennsylvania Railroad town. In some cases, regarding an estate that was being liquidated, a bidder might mention "Oh he worked for the Railroad before he died". But, no one would seem to know much more about the history of the household. At such auctions, I suppose some unwritten story was being dismembered as each separate piece of personal property and railroadiana were being dispersed to different high-bidders. This book is one story that survived the auction block and it was a fortunate process that it even became published. The glimpse of the past offered by this book should appeal to a wider audience than just the die-hard railroad afficionado. It is a story of growing up in a rural Pennsylvania Railroad town, enduring the turbulent times in U.S. history, and portrays a special bond shared between father and son. For that alone, I would highly recommend this book. Colm Chomicky http://homepages.about.com/prr1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 11:58:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] Keystone summer 93 Hi, since there aren't back issues of this number, is there someone who can scan me the pages about the PRR marine operations? Thanks in advance! Geoffrey geoff_vandooren@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 14:13:09 -0500 From: Greg Johnson Subject: Re: [PRR] Set Up Running etc. Ditto to all the comments on "Set Up Running". I too bought it at the convention last week, and had read 250 pages by the time the plane landed back in Houston. My next goal is to pull out the division track chart and see where the towns were. Regards, Greg Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colm Chomicky" To: Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 12:06 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Set Up Running etc. I too just recently purchased "Set Up Running" based on comments from this list. I bypassed this era of steam, industry, and human endurance having been born in Central Pennsylvania one year after the death of Oscar P. Orr, the engineer in this book. I can't help but think of some of the various auctions my father reported attending, often in some old Pennsylvania Railroad town. In some cases, regarding an estate that was being liquidated, a bidder might mention "Oh he worked for the Railroad before he died". But, no one would seem to know much more about the history of the household. At such auctions, I suppose some unwritten story was being dismembered as each separate piece of personal property and railroadiana were being dispersed to different high-bidders. This book is one story that survived the auction block and it was a fortunate process that it even became published. The glimpse of the past offered by this book should appeal to a wider audience than just the die-hard railroad afficionado. It is a story of growing up in a rural Pennsylvania Railroad town, enduring the turbulent times in U.S. history, and portrays a special bond shared between father and son. For that alone, I would highly recommend this book. Colm Chomicky http://homepages.about.com/prr1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:39:49 -0400 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal & Iron Police --On Wed, May 9, 2001 23:12 +0000 LeeRainey@aol.com wrote: > << In a message dated 5/9/2001 5:59:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > CPIZZO@worldnet.att.net writes: > > << In trying to catch up on PRR-Talk, I noticed a 4/6 posting by Bob Netzlof > concerning the Coal & Iron Police (C&IP). It is my understanding that the > C&IP either formed the foundation for or became the Pennsylvania State > Police (PSP). I have no references to prove it, but this is what I heard > many years ago. >> > > I don't believe this is accurate. The C&IP as I understand it was made up of > persons employed by the coal and iron companies, but clothed with state > powers. The C&IP lasted until the late 40s, from what I learned from old time > miners and the old newspapers I read while doing the EBT book, by which time > the State Police had been in existence for some time. > > Can anyone provide firm details? > According to the sources I've read (sorry, I can't provide specific citations), the PA State Police were formed specifically in response to labor unrest spilling out into the streets in the Anthracite fields and Pittsburgh district early in the 20th Century. In contemporary photos, state troopers appear in jodpurs and jackboots mounted on horseback. There is a classic photo, I believe in _The Kingdom of Coal_, of a mounted state trooper sitting his horse as he watches several C&IP "officers" removing the belongs of a mining family from a company house during a strike. Nice PR, huh?! The C&IP still exist in the Anthracite Region, where stripping is still carried on in Luzerne Co. They are (and have always been) a privately recruited and paid force, chartered by the state legislature with authority to arrest and/or cite tresspassers. They work closely with local authorities. They are plain-clothes, armed agents. Their patrol vehicles are supposed to be marked with decals on the doors, but the only one I've ever encountered still had his stashed in his vehicle. I personally encountered a C&IP officer while trespassing on an idle stripping operation two summers ago ... I just couldn't resist the temptation to get some close up photos of a dragline. Because my response was polite and contrite (and I carried credentials as a research historian) he "let me off" with a warning. As a result of our conversation, which went on for several minutes and became friendly (I asked a lot of questions and allowed as how my dad grew up in Shenandoah), he escorted me to another strip mine so I could get more dragline photos. This guy's standard intro line was a gem: "Excuse me. I'm with the sign maintenance department of _______ Coal Co. It's my duty to inspect all of our "No Trespassing" signs to make sure they're working properly. Is that 8x4 foot sign you walked past or the high berm that you climbed over to get in here malfunctioning?" The C&IP have a chronic problem with ATV-ers and wanton vandalism by teens and unemployed miners. They patrol agressively. Even though I got off without a problem, I was one or two wrong words away from spending a night in the Hazelton jail. Even so, my name, address, drivers' license number, and sexy RR heritage license tag are now in the Company database. These guys patrol agressively and don't play games. So kids, "don't try this at home." Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:21:06 -0500 From: "Colm Chomicky" Subject: Re: [PRR] Set Up Running etc. For those like myself without track charts, as I read the book, I found the DeLorme Pennsylvania Atlas to have the topography, towns, plus symbols for the tracks (right-of-way only, no info on sidings, double tracked sections etc.). The map shows many of the track sections, such as those going through Ralston, labeled as abandoned. Some of the former lumbering spots, old mines, and tannery operations near Ralston appear to be back in the woods on various State Forest and Game Lands. For those not familiar with this publication, the State is covered by over 60 map pages in much more detail than a standard highway map (bought my copy at Walmart over in the sporting goods section for about $15). For those wanting an super detailed picture, getting the entire State on CD with all the USGS 7.5 minute quads will run you a little more closer to $100. >>> Greg Johnson 05/10/01 02:13PM >>> Ditto to all the comments on "Set Up Running". I too bought it at the convention last week, and had read 250 pages by the time the plane landed back in Houston. My next goal is to pull out the division track chart and see where the towns were. Regards, Greg Johnson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 16:36:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Set Up Running etc. On Thu, 10 May 2001, Colm Chomicky wrote: > For those not familiar with this publication, the State is covered by > over 60 map pages in much more detail than a standard highway map > (bought my copy at Walmart over in the sporting goods section for about > $15). For those wanting an super detailed picture, getting the entire > State on CD with all the USGS 7.5 minute quads will run you a little > more closer to $100. Or if you have a fast connection you can download the USGS quads from Penn State in TIFF format for free. Or find a sucker to download them and write out CDs for you; They'll all fit on 4 cds as distributed by Penn State, and yes, it's perfectly legal to redistribute them (the ones from USGS, not whatever Delorme has) -D -has all the territory served by the PRR covered by digitized quad maps ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lmatt" Subject: [PRR] Holtwood and Safe Harbor critters Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 16:34:00 -0400 I owe you guys an apology! After looking at this latest critter listing from Holtwood, I can no longer say with certainty that I rode a narrow gage critter at Safe Harbor. I know I rode on a critter at safe Harbor on many occaisions and at Holtwood, too. I will have to rethink and study what the gages were. Sorry I was so affermative with my opinion. Lew Matt #6107 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Set Up Running etc. Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 14:07:22 -0700 Derrick and all, Another option is to do what I've recently been doing on the Elmira Branch, take a virtual tour, via Micro$oft's Terraserver (http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/default.asp) (of course, ignore the parenthesis) You log on and can either download the appropriate portion of the revelant quad or (better yet) download a photoquad...which is a satellite photo of the same area as shown on the quad segment. This allows one to follow a line with the photo, and if (as in the case of the Elmira Branch line, which largely was abandoned in 1972) it gets a bit difficult to follow, just switch over to the quad and there is the line delineated (and often marked with the name "PENNSYLVANIA"). Of course, it works much better (and faster) with a DSL connection, but a 56k modem isn't that bad... I started at Sodus Point, and followed it (so far) to Horseheads, NY. And the best part is that it's free (your tax dollars at work). Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Thu, 10 May 2001 16:36:47 -0400 (EDT) Derrick J Brashear wrote: > On Thu, 10 May 2001, Colm Chomicky wrote: > > > For those not familiar with this publication, the State > is covered by > > over 60 map pages in much more detail than a standard > highway map > > (bought my copy at Walmart over in the sporting goods > section for about > > $15). For those wanting an super detailed picture, > getting the entire > > State on CD with all the USGS 7.5 minute quads will run > you a little > > more closer to $100. > > Or if you have a fast connection you can download the > USGS quads from Penn > State in TIFF format for free. Or find a sucker to > download them and write > out CDs for you; They'll all fit on 4 cds as distributed > by Penn State, > and yes, it's perfectly legal to redistribute them (the > ones from USGS, > not whatever Delorme has) > > -D > -has all the territory served by the PRR covered by > digitized quad maps > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message > "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 17:12:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Set Up Running etc. On Thu, 10 May 2001 billd@gci-net.com wrote: > Another option is to do what I've recently been doing on the > Elmira Branch, take a virtual tour, via Micro$oft's > Terraserver (http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/default.asp) For the state of PA you can get said photo quads (or more correctly, photo quadrangle quadrants) from Penn State as well; They're also available for Ohio. For other states you have to use the method Bill describes, or spend a heap buying from the USGS. If you have a low speed network, you'll also prefer the terraserver method to this, but there are advantages to having the original data. ftp://ftp.pasda.psu.edu/pub/pasda drg24k has the quads doq has the aerial photos as I recall. -D -also has all of PA in aerial photos. Yes, it uses a lot of disk space. But it's very cool using those and a GPS receiver to effectively see where you are as it looks from above. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] Semaphores Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 14:22:17 -0700 List, There is a new manufacturer of semaphore signals hitting the market in the near future. Now, while I know that this is not earth-shaking news to the PRR faithful, remember that the PRR did use semaphores prior to the development of the position light signal, and in some cases these semaphore signals remained in-place, for quite a while. The first version (as mentioned below)is the GRS style, and while I am not sure which version the PRR used (they may in fact have used both GRS as well as USS designs) I thought the information would be of interest to the list. I stole (well...actually I cut) the letter from the Santa Fe list, and have copied it intact below, so that explains the reference to the Santa Fe. The letter was posted by Jay Miller, which explains the reference to his name as well. I've seen the jpg's and these look as good as he says they are...although David is from Australia, he is producing an excellent product apparently at the behest of the NP historical society. Maybe he can do something similar with a position light design!!! Bill Daniels Hi All, Jon Miller has graciously invited me to post some information about my latest project - GRS Type 2A Semaphores. These semaphores are not those most commonly used by the Santa Fe - the railroad used US&S semaphores mostly - but it's been drawn to my attention that they did have some of these though in which locations I will leave to the AT&SF experts on your list. Our semaphores are due for release in mid July next. They are fully operational, inclusive of all mechanisms, prototypical and scale sized (only HO at this time). They are made from brass with a few small parts made from injection molded plastic. The level of detail is quite astounding with all visible details in place complete with square and hex head bolts and nuts as per the original, rivets and mechanism case lettering. Actually this is not all that astounding as the technology we are using is capable of putting nail heads in timber and the coarse grain on the timber - you'd need a magnifying glass to see it but we can put it there. I have colour photos of our mock up which is accurate in every dimension but is lacking the fine details that will be on the production model. These photos are available on request and come as three jpeg format photos totaling 250K in size. With all that quality built in you might get the impression that these will bear a price tag like the real thing but they don't. Pre-release prices in US dollars are $25 for the unpainted kit or $47-50 for the ready to roll version in two different paint schemes (black/white or all silver). After the release of the product the price will rise to $29-50 and $55 respectively so you save $15 by purchasing earlier. Orders can be placed directly at this time but will be passed on to the Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association for distribution as they are the beneficiaries of all profits from this project. Future projects include the US&S Type B semaphores and a modular series for both US&S and GRS semaphores which will allow you to choose the components you need to build semaphores to match any prototype. These modular semaphores will be able to be mounted to signal bridges, cantilever towers or be mast mounted all of which are planned kits in brass. We have a newsletter called "The Spectacle" to which anyone can subscribe by dropping me an e-mail. The newsletter is e-mailed to you and the next edition is scheduled soon so please let me know if you want to be included on the mailing list. I think that about covers it in general. I'm happy to answer individual e-mails so feel free to ask any questions you have. Kind Regards David Lenehan Brisbane, Australia ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "taylorsouthwood" Subject: [PRR] INDIA INK ? Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 18:17:55 -0400 For the last couple of months I have been working on a set of Life Like Proto 2000 Alco PA's and am now ready to weather them. In Greg Martin's article he uses India ink to bring out some of the finer details.I have inquired about this ink at several national chain hobby shops and they don't carry it. What exactly is India ink and does anyone have any suggestions on where I can get it. Greg mixes the ink with rubbing alcohol before use, in the past I have used an alcohol diluted mixture of Polly Scale paint over Testor's Dullcoat and it turned the area white. Will this also do the same over Floquil Crystal Coat. I have many hours invested in these locomotive so I don't want to make any stupid mistakes now. Any advice from the modelers on the list would be greatly appreciated. MARK ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 17:29:23 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] INDIA INK ? From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Office supply stores should still carry India ink. It is a drawing ink - a BC (before computers) product that many of us used to make illustrations. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: "taylorsouthwood" >To: >Subject: [PRR] INDIA INK ? >Date: Thu, 10 May, 2001, 17:17 > > For the last couple of months I have been working on a set of Life Like > Proto 2000 Alco PA's and am now ready to weather them. In Greg Martin's > article he uses India ink to bring out some of the finer details.I have > inquired about this ink at several national chain hobby shops and they don't > carry it. What exactly is India ink and does anyone have any suggestions on > where I can get it. Greg mixes the ink with rubbing alcohol before use, in > the past I have used an alcohol diluted mixture of Polly Scale paint over > Testor's Dullcoat and it turned the area white. Will this also do the same > over Floquil Crystal Coat. I have many hours invested in these locomotive so > I don't want to make any stupid mistakes now. Any advice from the modelers > on the list would be greatly appreciated. MARK > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 17:41:45 -0500 From: "Colm Chomicky" Subject: [PRR] PRR - Maps, air photos, etc. (the long version) Assuming that there is some limitation (perhaps resolutionwise and datewise) in what is available digitally for free, a possible option for those really interested in researching a particular spot such as a railyard, etc. is to purchase prints of air photos through the USGS, National Archives, and US Soil Conservation Service. If you're along a river, the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is another source. I have seen air photos going back into the 1930's. and many areas having coverage beginning in the 1940's. Having multiple years one can track the changes that a piece of property undergoes. It is helpful to order using a 7.5 minute USGS base to show the area you want researched, and it helps if you are able to give precise latitudes and longitudes of the subject area. Some of these photos may be available at various libraries and government offices for inspection, but if you want your own copy for display purposes, they can be ordered from the source agency or National Archives depending on how old. It can get expensive and one has to be choosey on what one orders, but I find most cost-effective product is called a 9x9 contact print for about $8.00 plus shipping/handling. The film used in the cameras measures about 10 in. x 10 in and the image occupies about 9 in. x 9 in. of this negative. A typical 9 x 9 contact will cover a couple of square miles depending on altitude flown. You can order enlargements at a higher price, but only size, not resolution is increased. Once you have the 9 x 9 contact print you would be surprised what kind of detail you can bring out if you have access to a decent scanner and know how to zoom in. Also, you can generally order these photos in stereo pairs for 3-D viewing. All of the government agencies do a search for free. You pay only for what you want to order. You have to be patient, because there is some turn-around-time. Some areas may also have coverage flown by private air surveying companies, some of which maintain archives, but sometimes this type of information has been lost or destroyed. A lot of over-the-phone calling is sometimes required to find a private company that has archived coverage. Some of these companies charge a premium amount. i.e., $30 to $50 or more for a 9x9). Plus the image cannot be redistributed by you without permission due to copyrights. Also you have to make sure the service is not just repackaging the Government stuff but is giving you alternate coverage for missing dates or higher resolutions not available via Government sources. What you see on TerraServer is limited in resolution and date, but a great screening tool, and fun as hell. Colm Chomicky >>> 05/10/01 04:07PM >>> Derrick and all, Another option is to do what I've recently been doing on the Elmira Branch, take a virtual tour, via Micro$oft's Terraserver (http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/default.asp) (of course, ignore the parenthesis) You log on and can either download the appropriate portion of the revelant quad or (better yet) download a photoquad...which is a satellite photo of the same area as shown on the quad segment. This allows one to follow a line with the photo, and if (as in the case of the Elmira Branch line, which largely was abandoned in 1972) it gets a bit difficult to follow, just switch over to the quad and there is the line delineated (and often marked with the name "PENNSYLVANIA"). Of course, it works much better (and faster) with a DSL connection, but a 56k modem isn't that bad... I started at Sodus Point, and followed it (so far) to Horseheads, NY. And the best part is that it's free (your tax dollars at work). Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Thu, 10 May 2001 16:36:47 -0400 (EDT) Derrick J Brashear wrote: > On Thu, 10 May 2001, Colm Chomicky wrote: > > > For those not familiar with this publication, the State > is covered by > > over 60 map pages in much more detail than a standard > highway map > > (bought my copy at Walmart over in the sporting goods > section for about > > $15). For those wanting an super detailed picture, > getting the entire > > State on CD with all the USGS 7.5 minute quads will run > you a little > > more closer to $100. > > Or if you have a fast connection you can download the > USGS quads from Penn > State in TIFF format for free. Or find a sucker to > download them and write > out CDs for you; They'll all fit on 4 cds as distributed > by Penn State, > and yes, it's perfectly legal to redistribute them (the > ones from USGS, > not whatever Delorme has) > > -D > -has all the territory served by the PRR covered by > digitized quad maps > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message > "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] NE Corridor Freight Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 20:37:24 -0400 Greg: Re; Question 3. Norfolk Southern has exclusive rights on the NE Corridor Washington to south of Phila. to serve industries. Re: Question 4. There were 13 grade crossings on the PRR between NY-Wash, all south of Wilmington, DE. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Johnson" To: Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 10:32 AM Subject: [PRR] NE Corridor Freight > While on a business trip to DC last week, I noticed a number of industrial > spurs (active & inactive) branching off the northeast corridor main line > between BWI and Washington. I have four questions about the line: > > 1) Were there a lot of online freight customers on this line during the PRR > era? > > 2) When are the current customers switched? > > 3) Who does the switching now? > > 4) Were there any public grade crossings on this high speed line during the > 60's and 70's? > > Kudos to all those who put on the PRRH&TS meet in Camp Hill. The two days I > got to spend there were great. > > Regards, > > Greg Johnson > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lmatt" Subject: Re: [PRR] INDIA INK ? Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 20:50:04 -0400 I still use ink for railroad drawings in addition to the computer. The old fashioned india ink is still available as an artist supply material. A first cousin is the technical pen ink which has similar properties but has a much finer pigment. Both inks are opaque and dry medium fast. When dry, both inks are very difficult to remove. When I weather objects and subject them to a black wash to enhance the highlights, I use Floquil paints for the object and then dilute Pactra 'namel or Pactra flat with mineral spirits and wash it on. Even after it dries, a wash of mineral spirits will still disolve it completely and then the mineral spirit can be wased away with soap and water. The Floquil is not disturbed by either cleaning. I also use this wash technique for general weathering with dust, grime, dirt, rust etc. so that the weathering material is removaable if it doesn't come out the way I envisioned it. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "taylorsouthwood" To: Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 6:17 PM Subject: [PRR] INDIA INK ? > For the last couple of months I have been working on a set of Life Like > Proto 2000 Alco PA's and am now ready to weather them. In Greg Martin's > article he uses India ink to bring out some of the finer details.I have > inquired about this ink at several national chain hobby shops and they don't > carry it. What exactly is India ink and does anyone have any suggestions on > where I can get it. Greg mixes the ink with rubbing alcohol before use, in > the past I have used an alcohol diluted mixture of Polly Scale paint over > Testor's Dullcoat and it turned the area white. Will this also do the same > over Floquil Crystal Coat. I have many hours invested in these locomotive so > I don't want to make any stupid mistakes now. Any advice from the modelers > on the list would be greatly appreciated. MARK > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 21:33:16 -0400 From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Coal & Iron Police Maybe they need a visit from the Molly McGuires! John Ryan vck@andrew.cmu.edu wrote: > --On Wed, May 9, 2001 23:12 +0000 LeeRainey@aol.com wrote: > > > << In a message dated 5/9/2001 5:59:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > > CPIZZO@worldnet.att.net writes: > > > > << In trying to catch up on PRR-Talk, I noticed a 4/6 posting by Bob > Netzlof > > concerning the Coal & Iron Police (C&IP). It is my understanding that > the > > C&IP either formed the foundation for or became the Pennsylvania State > > Police (PSP). I have no references to prove it, but this is what I > heard > > many years ago. >> > > > > I don't believe this is accurate. The C&IP as I understand it was made up > of > > persons employed by the coal and iron companies, but clothed with state > > powers. The C&IP lasted until the late 40s, from what I learned from old > time > > miners and the old newspapers I read while doing the EBT book, by which > time > > the State Police had been in existence for some time. > > > > Can anyone provide firm details? > > > > According to the sources I've read (sorry, I can't provide specific > citations), the PA State Police were formed specifically in response to > labor unrest spilling out into the streets in the Anthracite fields and > Pittsburgh district early in the 20th Century. In contemporary photos, > state troopers appear in jodpurs and jackboots mounted on horseback. There > is a classic photo, I believe in _The Kingdom of Coal_, of a mounted state > trooper sitting his horse as he watches several C&IP "officers" removing the > belongs of a mining family from a company house during a strike. Nice PR, > huh?! > > The C&IP still exist in the Anthracite Region, where stripping is still > carried on in Luzerne Co. They are (and have always been) a privately > recruited and paid force, chartered by the state legislature with authority > to arrest and/or cite tresspassers. They work closely with local > authorities. They are plain-clothes, armed agents. Their patrol vehicles > are supposed to be marked with decals on the doors, but the only one I've > ever encountered still had his stashed in his vehicle. I personally > encountered a C&IP officer while trespassing on an idle stripping operation > two summers ago ... I just couldn't resist the temptation to get some close > up photos of a dragline. Because my response was polite and contrite (and I > carried credentials as a research historian) he "let me off" with a warning. > As a result of our conversation, which went on for several minutes and > became friendly (I asked a lot of questions and allowed as how my dad grew > up in Shenandoah), he escorted me to another strip mine so I could get more > dragline photos. This guy's standard intro line was a gem: "Excuse me. > I'm with the sign maintenance department of _______ Coal Co. It's my duty > to inspect all of our "No Trespassing" signs to make sure they're working > properly. Is that 8x4 foot sign you walked past or the high berm that you > climbed over to get in here malfunctioning?" > > The C&IP have a chronic problem with ATV-ers and wanton vandalism by teens > and unemployed miners. They patrol agressively. Even though I got off > without a problem, I was one or two wrong words away from spending a night > in the Hazelton jail. Even so, my name, address, drivers' license number, > and sexy RR heritage license tag are now in the Company database. These > guys patrol agressively and don't play games. So kids, "don't try this at > home." > > Vagel Keller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 22:25:29 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] INDIA INK ? In a message dated 5/10/2001 3:37:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, harperd@tamug.tamu.edu writes: << Office supply stores should still carry India ink. It is a drawing ink - a BC (before computers) product that many of us used to make illustrations. >> Only thing I have to add is that it comes in waterproof and non-waterproof. Anyone have any thoughts as to which is best for rolling stock? I also dilute Higgins non-waterproof India Ink with water and spray it on ground foam/lichen PRR scenery. It tones the "factory" colors down just a bit and does of great job of marrying them all together. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 00:58:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] INDIA INK ? Mark, I guess I could answer this myself, since I am the guy that writes those dar= n=20 articles... 3^) << For the last couple of months I have been working on a set of Life Like=20 Proto 2000 ALCO PA's and am now ready to weather them. In Greg Martin's=20 article he uses India ink to bring out some of the finer details.>> Absolutely, and once you get past the first time shock of all the detail=20 coming out and hitting you in the face you will never not use a form of the=20 technique again... Remember, a substitute for some applications is a=20 "SHARPIE=AE" brand felt tip pen.=20 <> Try your local Art Supply store there are couple different brands and make=20 sure you buy the waterproof and permanent type. =20 <> Yes, But only for thinning purposes while working and making washes in the=20 screen area, keep some clear alcohol close by for mistakes, but act fast. <> I can't comment on the Polly Scale issue as I don't use it as "washes." But= =20 I don't have any issues using Alcohol/India Ink over FLOQUIL paints. <> Hope this helps and throw out any other questions you might have with the=20 group so they might benefit. Greg Martin=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to = "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 07:44:51 EDT Subject: [PRR] Even Spell Checker doesn't always help Anyone else notice the caption on this month's Cedco calendar? Two I-1s, breaking hard arriving in Altoona from the west..... A reminder that spell checker is no substitute for a good proof reader... Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:39:15 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Even Spell Checker doesn't always help Dick, Don't get me started on the Cedco Co. . . . We're just lucky that the picture this month is NOT one that they have used three or four times in past calendars ! I think this years calendar has 5 or 6 pictures total that have been use (some two or three times) in past Cedco calendars ! If you save your past calendars, sit down and pull 'em all out and check it out. Its really sad with all the wonderful color Pennsy pictures out there that they have to keep reusing the same shots over and over again. . . and even worse, that we have to keep paying for them over and over again ! ! As the saying goes. . . "Whats wrong with this picture(s)" ! ! ! Jon S. PRRT&HS # 3079 FRRM of PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 10:09:12 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: B28s Information Needed Jerry Britton wrote: > ---------- > From: "Chuck Friedlein" > Reply-To: ironhorse@sprintmail.com > Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 15:35:59 -0700 > To: "Jerry Britton" > Subject: B28s Information Needed > > Greetings to the List, > > I'm looking for some information regarding some painting details on B28s > 0-6-0 switchers that are not addressed in the PR&IA (former name of the > PRRT&HS) Special Publication #1. "The Painting of P.R.R. Locomotives and > Tenders". Can anybody help me out, please? > > 1. What is the closest commercially available paint that would match > "ordinary medium green" for the cab interior color? > > 2. How high are the numerals on the loco cab, and what was the horizontal > length of the four digits of the number ? > > 4. Was there any other lettering on the loco cab--if so what was it, where > was it, and what style and size lettering was used? > > 5. How high are the letters in PEN....NIA on the tender, and what was the > horizontal length of the entire word? > > 6. Since these were freight switchers, would the outside window sashes > possibly have been painted the "Dark Orange" color prior to 1938 and lasting > through the 1938-1940 time frame possibly until a major loco or cab repaint > was needed? Is there any known photo proof to this if the answer is "yes"? > The book sort of implies the sashes were not "Dark Orange" at all on these > types of locos, but it's not specifically stated one way or the other. > > Any help that anyone can provide in filling in these gaps of my knowledge > would be most appreciated. > > Since this request is being forwarded to the list for me as the HTML > function of my software can't be disabled, I will not be able to reply to > the list in thanks for any help given, but if you include your e-mail > address I'll try to reply off list to all who respond. Jerry , Chuck & List- This may help: All pictures are B&W. All built 1918-19. Picture of 9215 on p. 21, Pennsy Power l Pictures of 7258, 7011, 8262 & 7030 on p. 70-71, Pennsy Power lll. Pictures of 9212 &7011 on p. 21, Pennsy Steam: A to T. Regards, Eddie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: [PRR] Genesis and Intermountain F-7 Sound Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 11:23:28 -0500 Has anyone installed Soundtraxx in either the IM or Genesis F-7's yet? If so, how did it turn out? Lessons learned? It looks to me like the DSD-AT100LC is the choice. And it appears the Panasonic/Soundtraxx/TTX oval speaker will fit with just a little dremel work. Thanks for your help! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 12:49:21 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Genesis and Intermountain F-7 Sound From: Jerry Britton On 5/11/01 12:23 PM, Steve Hoxie (steveh@dotstar.net) wrote: > Has anyone installed Soundtraxx in either the IM or Genesis F-7's yet? If > so, how did it turn out? Lessons learned? It looks to me like the > DSD-AT100LC is the choice. And it appears the Panasonic/Soundtraxx/TTX > oval speaker will fit with just a little dremel work. > While nobody has yet made comparisons between the Athearn Genesis F7's and the InterMountain Regal Line F7's -- I believe they both utilize the same Highliner shells, but I may be mistaken -- there may be another option for Athearn users. The InterMountain Regal Line F7's offer both A and B units at comparable prices. One benefit from InterMountain is the availability of four road numbers of each. Just announced from InterMountain, however, is the release of a new "Smart" dummy. The "Smart" dummy is an otherwise excellent version of the F7B, except that it includes no motor or circuit board. It does come with electrical pickups and wires from those pickups. It is specifically designed for housing sound systems. You could easily put a Soundtraxx decoder and SEVERAL speakers in this unit!!! Retail is $89.95. Dealers who carry InterMountain, "Merchandise Service" included, will likely discount. RELATED: "Merchandise Service" has ONE SET of F7A/B units in PRR livery from the FIRST RUN still in stock. These are out of production and distributors (which supply stores) are totally out of them. Get 'em while the gettin's good! (Surprisingly, I sold out of second run units at the convention!) ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Genesis and Intermountain F-7 Sound Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 12:29:04 -0500 Jerry Britton wrote-- > > -- I believe they both utilize the same Highliner shells, but I may be mistaken -- > Jerry--Not the same shells. The Highliner shell can be made into nearly any F just by using the right pieces and panels; IM must make a different casting. Thanks for the suggestion re the Genesis nonpowered B. We want all units powered. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: [PRR] Fw: [Digitrax] Genesis and Intermountain F-7 Sound Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 12:36:57 -0500 Don--Thanks for the response. I am planning on the Panasonic/Soundtraxx/TTX oval speaker because of past experience in a P1K F-3 ABA installation --with DSD150's--that came out very well. (You just knew that train was coming thru the front door!) Also Tony in his Speaker Comparison at http://www.ttx-dcc.com/productcompare/speaker_comp.htm says about the edgeport, "Use only when no other choices are available." Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Butler, Donald J" To: Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 11:57 AM Subject: RE: [Digitrax] Genesis and Intermountain F-7 Sound > Steve, > Yes, I did an installation into an Intermountain F-7 A + B set using the > AT100LC soundboard and the EdgePort speaker marketed by Soundtrax. The > speaker fit snugly with no grinding needed in the recess in the top of the > chassis over the rear truck, after the leads were bent up. This was one of > the easiest installations I have ever done, only took about 30 minutes from > start to finish. The only complaint is that the sound volume is not the > greatest compared to other installations using DSD decoders with larger > speakers in steam tenders. > The nice thing about this is there are no wires linking the loco to a tender > or a dummy B unit, everything is self-contained. By installing into both the > A and B the aggregate volume was acceptable, although this approach is > pricey. > If you use the Panasonic oval speaker on an installation, let the list know > how it sounds. > > Regards, Don > > Don Butler > Sr. Engineering Technician > Intel Corporation > Networking Component Division > 9750 Goethe Road > Sacramento, CA 95827-3500 > (916) 855-5177 x4923 > Fax (916) 854-1974 > donald.j.butler@intel.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 13:46:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Genesis F7 Detailing. List, Anyone go all out yet in detailing their Genesis PRR F7's? I started but put them aside to continue other projects. The only things I have done so far is remove the 1 air horn (firemans side), painted the railings and this little trick listed below I come up with. Greg, are you writing an article on detailing these? If so and you think this will help modelers, feel free to use it. The Athearn Genesis F's come with Passenger type Pilots. This is appropriate. They also include a insert which represents the Coupler Doors in the closed position. This is good for the lead unit A only. If you are using another A which is coupled to the train using the pilot end, this coupler door insert can't be used. The problem is if you are modeling these to represent the early years of service (1950-1955) you need the coupler doors mounted, be it in the closed or OPEN position. Just not inserting the coupler door piece is not the answer. Doors were not removed altogether until later. This is what I did to model them more correctly. How many of you have the Proto 200 E8's. Remember that little packages of spare parts included with those? One package included the coupler doors for the pilot. There is a left and right door. These are a perfect fit on the Genesis F7s! A little modification is needed but the final result looks great. Here is a quick run down of what I did. I removed the Genesis Coupler door insert. You will see the coupler opening. This needs to be enlarged. Locate the 2 horizontal seems that run from the top to the bottom of the pilot. Measure in 3/32" on each seem and scribe a line all the way from the top to the bottom. This whole area between the lines now needs removed (cut, dremeled, whatever you choose), all the way thru and out the bottom of the pilot. Use a file to square and clean up the cuts. I then temporarily mounted the LifelIke Proto Coupler doors to the Genesis pilot in the OPENED POSITION to see how it looks.. Masking tape workes fine. The reference point I used is the small oval holes on the Genesis Pilot. The far side of each door is aprox 1/32" away from the oval hole. You will know what I mean when you look at it. You can remove the doors at this point. Now, we need to model that curved piece located at the foot of the pilot. What this is is a piece of structural plate that swings up when the coupler doors are opened and in turn swings back down when the doors are shut. I modeled this is the swung upward position. All this is is a piece of strip styrene cut longer than the opening it is to fit into. Once squeezed into position it takes on the curved shape itself and then it is glued in place. Now reposition the doors and glue them in the open position location as stated above. You can use Greg's paint formula to match the colors. The factory installed couplers work fine. Again, this technique is only good for modeling the F Unit with the Coupler Doors in the open position.(circa 1950-55) More research and work needs to be tried to mount the Proto 2000 E8 doors in the closed position. Just gluing them on the pilot won't work. They need to be recessed into the pilot. Sanding the backside paper thin may be the trick. .......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 13:49:17 EDT Subject: [PRR] Genesis and Intermountain F-7 Sound In a message dated 5/11/01 11:41:15 AM Central Daylight Time, steveh@dotstar.net writes: << Has anyone installed Soundtraxx in either the IM or Genesis F-7's yet? >> No, but since several people will probably buy the Genesis F-7's in Pennsy and other liveries , I would like to warn everyone that the headlight bulb is a 1.5V, 16ma. Don't ask me how I found out! Although I had observed the nanosecond very bright headlight phenomena in several locos others had installed decoders in, I had never experienced it myself in a dozen locomotives, so didn't take the necessary precaution of checking . One of those progress things. Years ago, we were lucky if we got a headlight, now everyone includes a diode constant lighting circuit for analog DCC. Unfortunately, the headlight function on the decoder is 13.7 V. Now back to adding a resistor instead of a diode. BTW, I figure about 400 ohms, but before I fry another one (Athearn is nicely sending me a replacement--it is a beautiful looking headlight), can anyone else confirm that would be about right. I actually calculated about double that, but empirically with other 1.5V lamps 400 ohms seems to get about the right brightness. Bob (what was that strobe flash?) Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 13:55:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Genesis F7 Detailing. Lists, One error I caught in my post. I said Horizontal seems. This should be VERTICAL seems. Big difference!......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 15:46:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: [PRR-Modeling] Genesis and Intermountain F-7 Sound Jerry and Lists Hmmmm, Smart Dummy. . . Is that like Jumbo Shrimp. . . Military Intelligence. . . Rap Music. . . Grand Children ? ! ? I'll stop now ! Sorry, I couldn't resist! ! J.H.S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 16:42:26 EDT Subject: [PRR] SEEMS SPELL CHECKER STRIKES AGAIN! In a message dated 5/11/01 2:06:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << One error I caught in my post. I said Horizontal seems. This should be VERTICAL seems. ... >> SEAMS? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:10:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] RE: Spell Check Seems so! I didn't want to make a correction on a correction. You caught it..... Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Genesis F7 Detailing. Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:28:02 -0500 Gary--The Intermountain passenger pilot is available separately. It has all the door parts, including that curved piece at the bottom of the pilot. It may work out more easily than the P2K parts. I used the IM pilot on a P1K F-3 ABA set, one with doors closed, the other A had the doors open. Looked great. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Genesis and Intermountain F-7 Sound Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 17:30:20 -0500 Bob-- > I would like to warn everyone that the headlight bulb > is a 1.5V, 16ma. Don't ask me how I found out! Although I had observed the > nanosecond very bright headlight phenomena in several locos others had > installed decoders in, I had never experienced it myself in a dozen > locomotives, so didn't take the necessary precaution of checking . > Thanks for the warning! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 19:04:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Genesis and Intermountain F-7 Sound In a message dated 5/11/01 1:05:42 PM Central Daylight Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: << Perhaps 762.5 ohms? (13.7 - 1.5) / .016 = 762.5 >> Exactly. I came close in my head at Radio Shack. However, I found that my empirical tests were with some 30ma bulbs I had so my 390 ohm works about right. Replacement bulbs from Athearn would require the 762.5 ohms. Thanks for confirming I am not ready for Sun City yet (not that there is anything wrong with that!) Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 21:11:36 EDT From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Genesis and Intermountain F-7's Listers, Jerry Wrires: <> Jerry and all, The Athearn Genesis utilize the Highliner shell through an agreement with Highliner, InterMountain utilize their own tooling. Woosh!, I thhought we were going to get into one of those this one is better than that one debate, NO THANKS! BTW, the Highliner shells are now available, get your dealer in the loop. Some already have them. <> One disadvantage is that the color of the DGLE/Brunswick Green is wrong, and the lettering color is off. <> A good idea but I agree with Steve in that I would much rather have a set of 3 units powered. <> While I favor the Athearn units I feel anyone who bought the InterMountain bought a great product. I refuse to bad mouth their tooling but can't for the life of me understand were the DGLE color came from. I can understand the lettering mistake, heck MICROSCALE has missed it since the late 70's and we now are inclined to believe that the color they produce is right, NOT! Also the stripes on the F-units were unique to EMD being released from EMD with 2" Stripes while the rest of the Diesel Locomotive Producers were doing a 3" stripe and so Did MICROSCALE. Thank God Athearn was willing to listen to me when I worked on the project. To answer Gary's question, Yes I am doing an article. There is a lot to share with you all like how the antenna mast work on the back end of the units. But first I am working with Gary on getting his first article on 1:29 Scale F Units in print. It will be a good one watch for it in Model Railroading. Also coming up is an article by Stuart Thayer on the PRR C-630 or was that the C-628? Guess you will just have to watch Model Railroading... 3^) Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 21:38:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Genesis and Intermountain F-7's In a message dated 5/11/01 8:17:03 PM Central Daylight Time, TGREGMRTN@aol.com writes: << Also the stripes on the F-units were unique to EMD being released from EMD with 2" Stripes while the rest of the Diesel Locomotive Producers were doing a 3" stripe and so Did MICROSCALE. >> You mean you're responsible for that? :-) Seriously, biggest thing I noticed when hooking up my existing dummy A unit with the Genesis A-B set. I will probably MU them with my Stewart F3 which seems to also have the narrower stripe (plus a close match to the DGLE, best up to now with the Genesis,IMO). Anyway, I am very upset at the green on the P1K Erie-builts and the E-R Sharks (particularly, since I talked with the distributor at the Chicagoland hobby show about three years ago and they said, "yeah, we know, almost black". What happened?) Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "taylorsouthwood" Subject: [PRR] INDIA INK THANKS Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 21:47:40 -0400 Many thanks for the answers pertaining to my India ink questions. I think I've got a better understanding on how to use it and have already acquired a bottle, I can't wait to get started. OK now here is another question, Greg you mention using a fine tipped drawing pencil as well as a #2 soft standard graphite pencil, what is your technique on it's use, what effects does this give you and how does it differ from just using paint. As you can tell I am new at this weathering thing and it amazes me to see the results on these professionally done models. Once again many thanks to everyone. MARK ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Genesis and Intermountain F-7's Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 20:12:58 -0700 On Fri, 11 May 2001 21:11:36 EDT TGREGMRTN@aol.com wrote: > Listers, > > Jerry Wrires: > > < Athearn Genesis F7's and the InterMountain Regal Line > F7's -- I believe they both utilize the same Highliner > shells, but I may be mistaken -- there may be another > option for Athearn users.>> > > Jerry and all, > The Athearn Genesis utilize the Highliner shell through > an agreement with Highliner, InterMountain utilize their > own tooling. Woosh!, I thhought we were going to get into > one of those this one is better than that one debate, NO > THANKS! > > BTW, the Highliner shells are now available, get your > dealer in the loop. Some already have them. > > < units at comparable prices. One benefit from > InterMountain is the availability of four road numbers of > each.>> > > One disadvantage is that the color of the DGLE/Brunswick > Green is wrong, and the lettering color is off. > > < release of a new "Smart" dummy. The "Smart" dummy is an > otherwise excellent version of the F7B,except that it > includes no motor or circuit board. It does come with > electrical pickups and wires from those pickups. It is > specifically designed for housing sound systems. You > could easily put a Soundtraxx decoder and SEVERAL > speakers in this unit!!!>> > > A good idea but I agree with Steve in that I would much > rather have a set of 3 units powered. > > < "Merchandise Service" included, will likely discount.>> > > While I favor the Athearn units I feel anyone who bought > the InterMountain bought a great product. I refuse to > bad mouth their tooling but can't for the life of me > understand were the DGLE color came from. I can > understand the lettering mistake, heck MICROSCALE has > missed it since the late 70's and we now are inclined to > believe that the color they produce is right, NOT! Also > the stripes on the F-units were unique to EMD being > released from EMD with 2" Stripes while the rest of the > Diesel Locomotive Producers were doing a 3" stripe and so > Did MICROSCALE. Thank God Athearn was willing to listen > to me when I worked on the project. > > To answer Gary's question, Yes I am doing an article. > There is a lot to share with you all like how the antenna > mast work on the back end of the units. But first I am > working with Gary on getting his first article on 1:29 > Scale F Units in print. It will be a good one watch for > it in Model Railroading. Also coming up is an article by > Stuart Thayer on the PRR C-630 or was that the C-628? > Guess you will just have to watch Model Railroading... > 3^) > > Greg Martin > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message > "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 00:46:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Thanks and one question Hello list, A big thanks to Jerry and everyone else who posted on the PRRT&HS convention! Did the society do a book this year as in recent years past? Doug __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 10:44:49 EDT Subject: [PRR] Modeling and Sharing the PRR with friends Guys, I just want to remind everyone that if you are living in the Denver area or at least with in driving distance, Stuart Thayer is holding a RPM Meet in conjunction with the RMR/NMRA June 12-14, 2001. The cost is $18.00 in advance and $25.00 at the door for all three days, but this only covers the cost of the RPM side and will not allow you to attend the NMRA functions, so for the full fare you can get it all. Nonetheless, bring your PRR Equipment and any equipment for that matter, and meet Stuart, they have a private room on the second floor. Also, I know that Randy Lee will be there from Model Railroading Magazine and he has always support us SPF's and Lee Riley from Bachmann will be there. I wished I could attend but it looks like I will be in Wallula, WA on business that week. Greg Martin First I wrote: ================================================ << Also coming up is an article by Stuart Thayer on the PRR C-630 or was that the C-628? Guess you will just have to watch Model Railroading...>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- Then Stuart replies: Greg, That is a C630, and the article is done, and will be in the June issue of Model Railroading. I saw the bluelines of the article today. Anyone attending the RPM show at the NMRA regional convention in Denver in June will have an opportunity to look at the model in question, plus several others. In addition, we can sit around and talk modeling all day. So, come on up to the Rocky Mountains, and get in on the fun. Stuart Thayer> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Price" Subject: [PRR] F-7A Numberboards Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 18:34:59 -0000 Hey All, When delivered, did any of the EMD F7A come with the large numberboards? If so any one have an idea on what units they came on? I have a Stewart Hobbies F7A (phase one late) with the large numberboards and would like to number it correctly. Thanks, Ed ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Even Spell Checker doesn't always help Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 20:03:52 -0700 Bad cop, Cedco! No donut! I tried to interest Cedco in some of my railroad photography a couple of years ago when I was in Marin County, but was told in no uncertain terms that they didn't even want to look at them, the owner picked and chose what photos would run. Of course, after hearing this it is no wonder that their stuff is getting stale. No new blood. The sad thing is that a publisher cannot possibly lose by looking at new stuff...he dosen't have to buy it, and he might actually find some new and exciting photography. Therefore, if he limits his exposure, (bad photo pun here) he has only himself to blame if his product dosen't sell. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Fri, 11 May 2001 09:39:15 EDT JONS6755@aol.com wrote: > Dick, > Don't get me started on the Cedco Co. . . . We're just > lucky that the picture > this month is NOT one that they have used three or four > times in past > calendars ! > I think this years calendar has 5 or 6 pictures total > that have been use > (some two or > three times) in past Cedco calendars ! If you save your > past calendars, sit > down and pull 'em all out and check it out. Its really > sad with all the > wonderful color Pennsy > pictures out there that they have to keep reusing the > same shots over and > over > again. . . and even worse, that we have to keep paying > for them over and over > again ! ! > As the saying goes. . . "Whats wrong with this > picture(s)" ! ! ! > Jon S. > PRRT&HS # 3079 > FRRM of PA > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message > "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] F-7A Numberboards Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 22:26:30 -0500 Ed--The first ten F-7's (counting only A's) were the only ones which had the small numberboards; they were 9667 to 9676. All the rest had large number boards, 9640-9666 (yes, lower numbers than the first order), 9764-9831, and 9872-9879. The last group would be phase II; they also came with a large fuel tank. Get an Intermountain passenger pilot, nose lift rings and antennae from CalScale, plus some brass wire, and you will be all set. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Price" Subject: Re: [PRR] F-7A Numberboards Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 01:53:52 -0000 Thanks for the info, Steve. How well does the intermountain pilot line up with the Stewart Shell? I've used the Cal-scale pilot with some F-3 I did a while back with pretty good results. Ed >Get an Intermountain passenger pilot, nose lift rings and antennae from >CalScale, plus some brass wire, and you will be all set. > >Steve Hoxie >Pensacola FL > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 22:44:26 -0700 Subject: [PRR] T1's end of service From: "Douglas Nelson" Can someone tell me when the T1's were removed from service between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg? Thank you, Doug Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 02:10:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Even Spell Checker doesn't always help Bill, Whats really unreal about this, is that I even contacted Cedco on this and traded e-mails back and forth about the reusing of the same photos over and over. . . and he (the owner) had the brass balls to tell me that "good color Pennsy photos where hard to come by" ! ! To make things right he sent me a few free calendars. I'll tell you this. . . when his 2002 calendar comes out, if theres one reused photo in it. . . this cowboys not buying it. I've got better things to waste my hard earned coins on. . . just ask my wife ! ! ! Jon S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 08:21:30 -0400 From: Steve Hanlon Subject: [PRR] metroliners my crazy neighbor who loves pennsy electrics is looking for info regarding the metroliners. both he and i can not figure out what color the cab fiberglass was. i know it's not white. -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Greg Stone" Subject: [PRR] 3 rail for sale or trade for 2 rail Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 08:38:15 -0400 I am switching entirely over to 2 rail and have a number of 3 rail scale size PRR steam to sell or trade for 2 rail. I have engines and equipment from most of the major manufacturers. If you are looking for something please contact me off list. Greg Stone PRRT&HS member Special interest Renovo Yards GASER@alltel.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Anderson Charles L CRPH Subject: RE: [PRR] metroliners Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:17:18 -0400 It was "haze gray"... quite similar to the color of Navy ships. Of course the accent strippes were red with PRR "keystones". Chas -----Original Message----- From: Steve Hanlon [mailto:steveh@mth-railking.com] Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 8:22 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] metroliners my crazy neighbor who loves pennsy electrics is looking for info regarding the metroliners. both he and i can not figure out what color the cab fiberglass was. i know it's not white. -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Test Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:13:30 -0400 List: Please pardon this test E-mail troubles. Gregg M. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:35:41 EDT From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] N6a and N6b cabin cars Many thanks to all who responded to my request for the instructions. Either there are a lot of pack rats out there who don't throw things away or there are a lot of kits waiting to be built! Your help has been most appreciated. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:47:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] N6a and N6b cabin cars List, Speaking of N6b Cabins. Today I learned of a company that maybe releasing another kit in HO Scale. It will be entirely of high quality resin. Probably easier to build than the Gloorcraft/Quality Craft kit. There is a company called Pacific Mountain. (Canada) They in fact just released sevral B&O (I-12 and I-5 Cabooses) Kits. I have one here right now to build for someone. I emailed the company today to give them words of encouragement. The kit appears to be very well done. I have yet to start though. In the email correspondence, he mentioned a possile N6a/N6b Cabin kit. Work on the drawings is in progress. So it looks like a go in my opinion. So hopefully sometime down the road another Pennsy kit will hit the market.....Gary. Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] F-7A Numberboards Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 23:05:29 -0500 Ed--The IM passenger pilot is plastic so it has the flexibility to allow you to get it exactly right on the Stewart shell. I think you will like the coupler door parts--looks really good when installed in the open position. Steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Doug Day" Subject: [PRR] Stewart RS-12 Bell/Horn placement. Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 09:29:05 -0400 I guess I need a photo here or some advice on where to put the born and bell on this model as Stewart does not offer anything on their instruction sheet. Thanks. Doug ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 11:18:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Stewart RS-12 Bell/Horn placement. In a message dated 05/15/2001 9:43:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dougday@1st.net writes: > I guess I need a photo here or some advice on where to put the born and bell > on this model as Stewart does not offer anything on their instruction sheet. > Keeping in mind that the long hood is the front of the locomotive, the horn is centered on the long hood immediately in front of the cab. Can't see the bell in any photos I have access to. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 12:08:24 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] Stewart RS-12 Bell/Horn placement. Doug Day wrote: > I guess I need a photo here or some advice on where to put the born and bell > on this model as Stewart does not offer anything on their instruction sheet. > > Thanks. > Doug- Pennsy Power II, Page 217 (Unit # 8108) shows bell hanging from frame, just behind left front steps. Regards, Eddie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 15:17:21 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] No subject was specified. Doug Day wrote: > I guess I need a photo here or some advice on where to put the born and bell > on this model as Stewart does not offer anything on their instruction sheet. > > Thanks. > Doug- Pennsy Power II, Page 217 (Unit # 8108) shows bell hanging from frame, just behind left front steps. Regards, Eddie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] runaway train Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 21:18:53 -0400 Hi All, Since this is not truly PRR related, please reply to me privately at billlane@snip.net .I have not seen the full report on the news yet today, but how could the CSX train have been a crewless runaway? I thought all mainline power had a deadman alarm that had to be responded to every minute or so. Also, wouldn't setting a block to stop have put the train control into emergency brake? I am baffled at what happened today. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 22:09:09 EDT Subject: [PRR] Runaway train? In a message dated 5/15/01 9:31:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, billlane@snip.net writes: << how could the CSX train have been a crewless runaway? >> I'd like to hear how it was resolved & the technical details - TV news people are notarily "clueless" when it comes to trains - the radio called it a "Hazmat Train" - like it was carrying nuclear waste or something Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Runaway train? Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 22:42:13 -0400 Dick and list: As I told Bill off list, the locomotive was probably idling, with the throttle "off" so the 'deadman control' was inoperative and coasted downhill. It was chased by another locomotive which coupled to the rear of the train and braked. Between the braking locomotive and a slight upgrade, the train slowed sufficiently to allow the Trainmaster, at a grade crossing, to make a "running grab' at the grabiron on the front steps and get into the cab and apply the brakes. There are at least two CSXT "T&E" men with some explaining to do. Let's hope there was not a "gamer" involved that had been testing MicroSoft's train simulator, as this is what UP predicts will be be result of the MS game! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 10:09 PM Subject: [PRR] Runaway train? > In a message dated 5/15/01 9:31:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > billlane@snip.net writes: > > << how could the CSX train have been a crewless runaway? >> > > I'd like to hear how it was resolved & the technical details - TV news people > are notarily "clueless" when it comes to trains - the radio called it a > "Hazmat Train" - like it was carrying nuclear waste or something > Dick Ross > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 23:16:48 +0000 From: knmeyer Subject: Re: [PRR] Stewart RS-12 Bell/Horn placement. I believe the bell is located under the walkway. SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 05/15/2001 9:43:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > dougday@1st.net writes: > > > I guess I need a photo here or some advice on where to put the born and bell > > on this model as Stewart does not offer anything on their instruction > sheet. > > > Keeping in mind that the long hood is the front of the locomotive, the horn > is centered on the long hood immediately in front of the cab. Can't see the > bell in any photos I have access to. > > Rich Orr > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 23:32:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Runaway train? In a message dated 5/15/01 7:47:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: << As I told Bill off list, the locomotive was probably idling, with the throttle "off" so the 'deadman control' was inoperative and coasted downhill. >> I wouldn't call hitting speeds of 46 miles an hour coasting. . . Some how the throttle was open, the reverse "key" had to be set to forwaed and the brakes released letting the train leave the yards by itself. I think this may stink of foul play. . . but what do I know. I find it funny and interesting that this happened on the afternoon of the same day CBS aired a report on 60 minutes II about the high number of train wrecks in this country ! Stranger than truth. . . ? Jon S. PRRT&HS #3079 FRRM of PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 23:43:47 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] runaway train In a message dated 5/15/01 6:31:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time, billlane@snip.net writes: << I am baffled at what happened today. >> And So Is CSX ! ! ! ! ! ! :-) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 08:51:22 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Runaway train? What's is stranger yet is the layout on yesterday's CNN website report on the incident. Among the advertising bracketing the article was one from a well known Air Conditioner Company: "Its hard to stop a TRANE" Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== > mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: > . . . I find it funny and interesting that this > happened on > the afternoon of the same day CBS aired a report on 60 minutes II about the > high > number of train wrecks in this country ! Stranger than truth. . . ? > Jon S. > PRRT&HS #3079 > FRRM of PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 09:39:51 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Runaway train? BTW It's still there: http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/05/15/runaway.train.05/index.html Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Andrew S. Miller" wrote: > > What's is stranger yet is the layout on yesterday's CNN website report > on the incident. Among the advertising bracketing the article was one > from a well known Air Conditioner Company: > > "Its hard to stop a TRANE" > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > ================================================== > > > mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: > > . . . I find it funny and interesting that this > > happened on > > the afternoon of the same day CBS aired a report on 60 minutes II about the > > high > > number of train wrecks in this country ! Stranger than truth. . . ? > > Jon S. > > PRRT&HS #3079 > > FRRM of PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:16:51 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Runaway CSX train From: Fred G Rea Many have now probably heard more on the story. I live in Columbus OH and we got extensive local as well as network coverage. As usual, most of it very distorted and biased. I'd love to hear some comments from either professional RR or media folks on the List. As I know them here are pretty much the "facts": It was a single unit and 47 or 48 cars. The HazMat hype came from two tank cars of molten phenol. The train did not have its air hoses connected In Dunkirk OH a single unit loco came up from behind and successfully coupled to the rear. Its brakes slowed the train to about 10 MPH but could not stop it. At 10 MPH a man was able to hop on and easily stop it. It went 70 miles in 2 hours. While its top speed may have approached 50 MPH, its average speed was only 35. There is a pretty good coverage in today's Columbus Dispatch. Try their web page, columbusdispatch.com I think. Any search engine will take you right to it. Now some rumor, speculation and questions: It appears to have been a switching move gone awry. Is it possible the engineer had it moving slowly, got off to run a head and throw a switch but could not get back on? Where was CSX communications with the media. It was implied that "nobody" knew it was unmanned. A squad was ready and ran into the cab to treat a disabled engineer. There had been two hours from its departure from Toledo until it was stopped. Now for my media peeves: It seems like the broadcast media go out of their way to put ignorant reporters on the air. The ignorance plus obvious bias are astounding! One local channel referred to all operating personnel as "conductors". One repeatedly, into the evening, called it a train "full of hazardous material". Several broadcast and cable news outlets called it a "hazmat train". It is my understanding that the material, in only two of the 47 cars, was hot and messy. It would be hazardous only if you touched it. Certainly no need to speculate endlessly about evacuation of nearby towns etc. One popular local TV anchor man speculated regarding the locomotive. He said " it might be diesel, electric, or even diesel electric". He added, "they have not used steam locomotives much in recent years so I doubt it is steam." A picture of the stopped CSX loco was on the screen during this entire time. Finally, they were running an Operation Lifesaver special full of media and guests was making a trip between Columbus and Toledo yesterday. That, and the CBS special, meant it could not have happened at a worse (or, for the media, better) time. Fred Rea ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 10:33:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Runaway CSX train From: Jerry Britton On 5/16/01 10:16 AM, Fred G Rea (fredrea@juno.com) wrote: > Certainly no need to speculate endlessly about evacuation of nearby towns > etc. > There was coverage on "Good Morning America" this morning. They had the engineer who jumped aboard at an estimated 10-15 mph. They did not speculate on what caused the train to take off. They did indicate that CSX contacted all towns along the route and got all crossings guarded. Video seemed to support that. They said the real concern was stopping the train before it crested outside of Canton. If they could not stop it then, it would gain speed and likely derail within Canton where they said there was an "S" turn that would not bear the spead. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:00:32 EDT Subject: [PRR] CSX Runaway Train Ya know. . . the way I look at this, CSX should be happy to have gotten a train running. . . and kept it running for two hours. . . manned or unmanned. . . . Hey things are looking up ! ! ! ! ! ! Jon S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:02:42 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] Stewart RS-12 Bell/Horn placement. Doug Day wrote: > Eddie, > > Considering that the Pennsy ran these long hood forward, I assume that you > are speaking of the left front steps as on the long hood end of the loco. > > Thanks for your input here as I don't have any photos of this loco. Nice > loco. Putting a decoder in it was a cinch too! > > Before this list I wouldn't have cared about this bell/horn positioning, but > this list keeps you honest and adds you to the growing list of "pickers of > nits". > > Really appreciate it. > > Doug > Doug- Correct, I am speaking of the left front steps on the long hood end of the loco. Bell clearly shows hanging under frame just behind steps. Regards, Eddie > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dr. Edmond L. Freed > To: Doug Day > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 12:04 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Stewart RS-12 Bell/Horn placement. > > > Doug Day wrote: > > > > > I guess I need a photo here or some advice on where to put the born and > bell > > > on this model as Stewart does not offer anything on their instruction > sheet. > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > > > > > > > > Doug- > > > > Pennsy Power II, Page 217 (Unit # 8108) shows bell hanging from frame, > just > > behind left front steps. > > Regards, > > Eddie > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lmatt" Subject: [PRR] PRR drawing 1877 Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:46:05 -0400 I have a drawing of an octogon shaped "watch box" dated Altoona, Sept 5, 1877. It is about 6 feet wide (across the flats) and has a ceiling of 7' - 9". It would be suitable for a chair, desk and the pot bellied stove noted in the drawing. The drawing has only two views and I am reconstructing the missing information in order to build a scale model. I could probably guess at some of the information but would rather hear what the experts have to say. My questions are: 1 what type of roof would have been applied to a small building like this? (sheet metal, tarpaper, slate or wood shingle) 2. what color would this have been painted in 1877? and later if it survived into the 20th century? 3. where and how would the wood be stored for the pot bellied stove? (it doesn't look like there is enough room inside for this) 4. what were some of the uses this small building would be suitable for? Thank you for your valued opinions. Lew ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Runaway CSX train Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:48:40 -0400 Gentlemen: I have one question and one comment regarding media coverage... First the question: What line did this happen on? Was it the ex-C&O line out of Toledo heading south? Now the comment about the bias media. I heard this on ABC radio WHILE the train was still a runaway and that there were still MANY unknown facts. First, one report mentioned that there he engineer had a fatal heart attack, hence the runaway. The next half-hour update(with the train still a runaway), the reportette on the radio concluded that the train was a runaway "on account of the railroads disabling dead-man switches and other safety features, much to the disapproval of labor unions." Talk about trial by public opinion without ANY facts! Excuse me while I throw up..... Ted Andrews By the grace of God I am not a journalist. -----Original Message----- From: Fred G Rea [mailto:fredrea@juno.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 9:17 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Runaway CSX train Many have now probably heard more on the story. I live in Columbus OH and we got extensive local as well as network coverage. As usual, most of it very distorted and biased. I'd love to hear some comments from either professional RR or media folks on the List. As I know them here are pretty much the "facts": It was a single unit and 47 or 48 cars. The HazMat hype came from two tank cars of molten phenol. The train did not have its air hoses connected In Dunkirk OH a single unit loco came up from behind and successfully coupled to the rear. Its brakes slowed the train to about 10 MPH but could not stop it. At 10 MPH a man was able to hop on and easily stop it. It went 70 miles in 2 hours. While its top speed may have approached 50 MPH, its average speed was only 35. There is a pretty good coverage in today's Columbus Dispatch. Try their web page, columbusdispatch.com I think. Any search engine will take you right to it. Now some rumor, speculation and questions: It appears to have been a switching move gone awry. Is it possible the engineer had it moving slowly, got off to run a head and throw a switch but could not get back on? Where was CSX communications with the media. It was implied that "nobody" knew it was unmanned. A squad was ready and ran into the cab to treat a disabled engineer. There had been two hours from its departure from Toledo until it was stopped. Now for my media peeves: It seems like the broadcast media go out of their way to put ignorant reporters on the air. The ignorance plus obvious bias are astounding! One local channel referred to all operating personnel as "conductors". One repeatedly, into the evening, called it a train "full of hazardous material". Several broadcast and cable news outlets called it a "hazmat train". It is my understanding that the material, in only two of the 47 cars, was hot and messy. It would be hazardous only if you touched it. Certainly no need to speculate endlessly about evacuation of nearby towns etc. One popular local TV anchor man speculated regarding the locomotive. He said " it might be diesel, electric, or even diesel electric". He added, "they have not used steam locomotives much in recent years so I doubt it is steam." A picture of the stopped CSX loco was on the screen during this entire time. Finally, they were running an Operation Lifesaver special full of media and guests was making a trip between Columbus and Toledo yesterday. That, and the CBS special, meant it could not have happened at a worse (or, for the media, better) time. Fred Rea ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Runaway CSX train Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:54:58 -0500 Thanks, Fred! Please provide more as it becomes available. Down here, of course, we were only able to see it as it was happening on CNN and Fox. Then later suffer thru the network broadcasts to see if they even mentioned it. Even Fox, which does a lot of things right, had only sketchy coverage. I'll bet not many media people are railfans or modelers. Obligatory PRR content: was this on an ex-PRR line? Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 13:04:11 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Runaway CSX train In a message dated 5/16/2001 10:39:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > They said the real concern was stopping the train before it crested outside > of Canton. If they could not stop it then, it would gain speed and likely > derail within Canton where they said there was an "S" turn that would not > bear the spead. Kenton: this is a former NYC line from Toledo to Columbus OH, next towns after Kenton would be Ridgeway and West Mansfield (latter where my ex-wife's paternal ancestors were based (her grandmother gave me her recollections of the line being built c. 1910). I believe there was a discussion of this and other lines from Toledo to central and southern Ohio in PRR-Talk some time back. In the late-PC/early-CR years, when I visited West Mansfield rather often, the trains moved through the town at very fast pace; my last visit was in late 1996, and the line seemed to in first-class condition. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Runaway CSX train Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 13:27:37 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" To: "Andrews, Ted" Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Runaway CSX train > Oh Ted, a local shop steward or chairman got ahold of the reporter and fed > him some BofLE or UTU lies and he bought it!!! It is the union men that > disable the "deadman switch" as it interferes with their work as they see > fit to do it. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrews, Ted" > To: "'Fred G Rea'" ; > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 12:48 PM > Subject: RE: [PRR] Runaway CSX train > > > > Gentlemen: > > > > I have one question and one comment regarding media coverage... > > > > First the question: What line did this happen on? Was it the ex-C&O line > out > > of Toledo heading south? > > > > Now the comment about the bias media. I heard this on ABC radio WHILE the > > train was still a runaway and that there were still MANY unknown facts. > > First, one report mentioned that there he engineer had a fatal heart > attack, > > hence the runaway. The next half-hour update(with the train still a > > runaway), the reportette on the radio concluded that the train was a > runaway > > "on account of the railroads disabling dead-man switches and other safety > > features, much to the disapproval of labor unions." > > > > Talk about trial by public opinion without ANY facts! > > > > Excuse me while I throw up..... > > > > > > Ted Andrews > > By the grace of God I am not a journalist. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Fred G Rea [mailto:fredrea@juno.com] > > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 9:17 AM > > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > > Subject: [PRR] Runaway CSX train > > > > > > Many have now probably heard more on the story. I live in Columbus OH > > and we got extensive local as well as network coverage. As usual, most > > of it very distorted and biased. I'd love to hear some comments from > > either professional RR or media folks on the List. > > > > As I know them here are pretty much the "facts": > > > > It was a single unit and 47 or 48 cars. > > > > The HazMat hype came from two tank cars of molten phenol. > > > > The train did not have its air hoses connected > > > > In Dunkirk OH a single unit loco came up from behind and successfully > > coupled to the rear. Its brakes slowed the train to about 10 MPH but > > could not stop it. > > > > At 10 MPH a man was able to hop on and easily stop it. > > > > It went 70 miles in 2 hours. While its top speed may have approached 50 > > MPH, its average speed was only 35. > > > > There is a pretty good coverage in today's Columbus Dispatch. Try > > their web page, columbusdispatch.com I think. Any search engine will > > take you right to it. > > > > Now some rumor, speculation and questions: > > > > It appears to have been a switching move gone awry. Is it possible the > > engineer had it moving slowly, got off to run a head and throw a switch > > but could not get back on? > > > > Where was CSX communications with the media. It was implied that > > "nobody" knew it was unmanned. A squad was ready and ran into the cab to > > treat a disabled engineer. There had been two hours from its departure > > from Toledo until it was stopped. > > > > Now for my media peeves: > > > > It seems like the broadcast media go out of their way to put ignorant > > reporters on the air. The ignorance plus obvious bias are astounding! > > > > One local channel referred to all operating personnel as "conductors". > > One repeatedly, into the evening, called it a train "full of hazardous > > material". Several broadcast and cable news outlets called it a "hazmat > > train". It is my understanding that the material, in only two of the 47 > > cars, was hot and messy. It would be hazardous only if you touched it. > > Certainly no need to speculate endlessly about evacuation of nearby towns > > etc. > > > > One popular local TV anchor man speculated regarding the locomotive. He > > said " it might be diesel, electric, or even diesel electric". He added, > > "they have not used steam locomotives much in recent years so I doubt it > > is steam." A picture of the stopped CSX loco was on the screen during > > this entire time. > > > > Finally, they were running an Operation Lifesaver special full of media > > and guests was making a trip between Columbus and Toledo yesterday. That, > > and the CBS special, meant it could not have happened at a worse (or, for > > the media, better) time. > > > > Fred Rea > > ________________________________________________________________ > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Runaway CSX train Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:07:08 -0700 From: "John Cooper" > ---------- > From: BBReynolds@aol.com[SMTP:BBReynolds@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 10:04 AM > To: jerry@pennsyrr.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Cc: BBReynolds@aol.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Runaway CSX train > > In a message dated 5/16/2001 10:39:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > > > They said the real concern was stopping the train before it crested > outside > > of Canton. If they could not stop it then, it would gain speed and > likely > > derail within Canton where they said there was an "S" turn that > would not > > bear the spead. > > Kenton: this is a former NYC line from Toledo to Columbus OH, > There was a question earlier about having the train stop automatically when it passed a red signal. This would require either PRR-style cabsignals, or some form of mechanical or inductive trip-stops at each signal. Being former NYC, it is unlikely this equipment was installed, but it is something to watch for as investigation continues. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Stephen Bernas" Subject: [PRR] Questions about PRR Dining Car China Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 18:00:25 -0400 Hi, I have a question regarding dining car china on PRR trains in the late 1800's. Listed on e-Bay is a water carafe made by the Perfection Bottle Company (http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1143642014). According to what is listed in the auction, these were used by the PRR in dining car service in the late 1800's. Can anyone corroborate this? My parents collect glass made by the Perfection Glass company and have done extensive research on the company and have never turned up this little fact. Thanks in advance, Stephen Bernas Bernass1@erols.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lmatt" Subject: [PRR] CSX runaway first hand account Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 18:13:47 -0400 I got this today and thought many of you would like to read it. Lew Matt ======================================= Here is a firsthand account of the runaway by Eric landrum of Cincinnati. This was taken from his post to the WesternOhioRails list. This might be more accurate than what you'll hear on the national media! Dave M. I was up north chasing the CSX Operation Lifesaver Special today, which operated on the former Conrail Toledo Branch between Columbus and Toledo. After getting my last northbound shot north of Bowling Green, I decided to grab some lunch. After lunch, I proceeded back north to Trombley to await the return southbound Operation Lifesaver train. While on I-75, I heard some VERY UNUSUAL radio chatter, culminating in,"Well where is the engineer?" "Right here in the crew room!" A train had somehow gotten out of Stanley Yard in Toledo and was running southbound with no one aboard. I saw the train at North Trombley running at about 30mph. It was a solo SD40-2 #8888, an ex-Conrail unit with about 47 cars. It tripped the detector at North Trombley with dragging equipment, but none of the others further south. I then heard the CSX "IE" Dispatcher call the maintainers along the road that the train had run through the switches at CP 14 and were likely damaged. The pursuit by CSX employees, police, and myself began at this point. Folks, the Good Lord was watching over north central Ohio today! Thankfully, due to the Operation Lifesaver Special, there was a very high police presence along the railroad. This was crucial! Almost every grade crossing was protected when the train passed. Keep in mind, nobody was aboard to sound the horn and bell. The headlights were not on either. I caught up with the train again at Mortimer (North Findlay). Here, a CSX maintainer had placed a derail on the track to derail the train. Everyone was out of the way, expecting a horrific wreck. Amazingly, the train RAN THROUGH the derail, kicking it out of the way! Now, the city of Findlay lay ahead. By this time, all police and emergency personnel along the line had been alerted. NS & other CSX dispatchers had been alerted to prevent any intersecting lines from passing traffic through railroad crossings at grade (Galatea, Mortimer, Findlay, etc.). They were going to attempt to put the train in the siding at Whirlpool, just north of Findlay, but the fear of the hazardous material cars on the train nixed that move. It was then decided to put the train in the siding at Blanchard, south of Dunkirk. However, another idea arose. There was a northbound Q636 waiting at Dunkirk in the siding. Dunkirk has probably never seen so much excitement since the big wreck of some years ago. There was Q636 in the siding and an eastbound local on the PRR, waiting at the diamond with a clear signal. Thankfully the word had gotten out. The train accelerated going down the hill from the US 68 crossing to the diamond at Dunkirk. When the train passed, the great locomotive chase began. The crew of Q636, in the siding at Dunkirk, had taken their lone SD40-2 off their train and through arrangement with the "IE" train dispatcher, prepared to pull out of the north end of the siding after the runaway had passed and begin a pursuit. The train got by at about 45 mph, the dispatcher immediately threw the switch and 636's power got out on the main. After a few tense seconds, the switch lined and the chase began! The crew on 636 were incredible. Gung ho, they WANTED to catch that train by the sounds of their voices on the radio. They caught up with the runaway just south of Blanchard. The city of Kenton, with its sharp curves laid ahead. The lone SD40-2, now coupled to the runaway, kicked the dynamic brakes on full and got immediate results, bringing the train down to a curve safe 20mph and less. The dispatcher then arranged for the Kenton local, with a lone GP38 and a covered hopper, to get in front of the runaway, if necessary, to pace, couple up, and buffer the train to a stop. The Q636's crew and Kenton local were placed in direct contact. Q636 gave the train speed every few seconds and the Kenton local got in a tangent where they could get a jump and engage the runaway as safely as possible under the circumstances. Finally, the runaway was slowed to 12mph. At State Route 31, a CSX trainmaster heroically, swung aboard and shut the throttle off on the errant locomotive and train. The Kenton local was just ahead and did not have to couple to the runaway. The situation in the cab reported by the trainmaster: run 8 throttle, 20lb reduction on the automatic, and full application on the independent. Amazingly, NOBODY WAS INJURED in this! The CSX folks deserve a tremendous pat on the back and congratulations for their handling of this extraordinary situation. I was there for almost the entire pursuit, never being more than 6 miles away and always in radio range. No one lost their cool and everyone was on the same page. There was some great crisis railroading being performed by the men out there today! A few THANK GOD things worth mentioning: 1. The train had its brakes applied and was dragging along, preventing higher speeds from being achieved. 2. The derail at Mortimer did not work. A hazmat disaster would have likely resulted in a semi populated area, right next to I-75. 3. No one was involved in a collision with the train. Remember, nobody was aboard to sound the horn and bell. 4. The cities of Findlay and Kenton have some significant curves. The train did not derail! 5. There were ample personnel along the line thanks to the OLS special today. As to how all of this got started, that is up for the investigators and I cannot speculate as I have no idea what happened in Toledo. What is typed above is my own account and any errors are mine alone. I have a recording of the radio traffic during the entire locomotive chase. I will make an mp3 tonight and post it someplace for all to hear. Will advise when it is complete. I got this today and thought many of you would like to read it. Eric ======================================= Here is a firsthand account of the runaway by Eric landrum of Cincinnati. This was taken from his post to the WesternOhioRails list. This might be more accurate than what you'll hear on the national media! Dave M. I was up north chasing the CSX Operation Lifesaver Special today, which operated on the former Conrail Toledo Branch between Columbus and Toledo. After getting my last northbound shot north of Bowling Green, I decided to grab some lunch. After lunch, I proceeded back north to Trombley to await the return southbound Operation Lifesaver train. While on I-75, I heard some VERY UNUSUAL radio chatter, culminating in,"Well where is the engineer?" "Right here in the crew room!" A train had somehow gotten out of Stanley Yard in Toledo and was running southbound with no one aboard. I saw the train at North Trombley running at about 30mph. It was a solo SD40-2 #8888, an ex-Conrail unit with about 47 cars. It tripped the detector at North Trombley with dragging equipment, but none of the others further south. I then heard the CSX "IE" Dispatcher call the maintainers along the road that the train had run through the switches at CP 14 and were likely damaged. The pursuit by CSX employees, police, and myself began at this point. Folks, the Good Lord was watching over north central Ohio today! Thankfully, due to the Operation Lifesaver Special, there was a very high police presence along the railroad. This was crucial! Almost every grade crossing was protected when the train passed. Keep in mind, nobody was aboard to sound the horn and bell. The headlights were not on either. I caught up with the train again at Mortimer (North Findlay). Here, a CSX maintainer had placed a derail on the track to derail the train. Everyone was out of the way, expecting a horrific wreck. Amazingly, the train RAN THROUGH the derail, kicking it out of the way! Now, the city of Findlay lay ahead. By this time, all police and emergency personnel along the line had been alerted. NS & other CSX dispatchers had been alerted to prevent any intersecting lines from passing traffic through railroad crossings at grade (Galatea, Mortimer, Findlay, etc.). They were going to attempt to put the train in the siding at Whirlpool, just north of Findlay, but the fear of the hazardous material cars on the train nixed that move. It was then decided to put the train in the siding at Blanchard, south of Dunkirk. However, another idea arose. There was a northbound Q636 waiting at Dunkirk in the siding. Dunkirk has probably never seen so much excitement since the big wreck of some years ago. There was Q636 in the siding and an eastbound local on the PRR, waiting at the diamond with a clear signal. Thankfully the word had gotten out. The train accelerated going down the hill from the US 68 crossing to the diamond at Dunkirk. When the train passed, the great locomotive chase began. The crew of Q636, in the siding at Dunkirk, had taken their lone SD40-2 off their train and through arrangement with the "IE" train dispatcher, prepared to pull out of the north end of the siding after the runaway had passed and begin a pursuit. The train got by at about 45 mph, the dispatcher immediately threw the switch and 636's power got out on the main. After a few tense seconds, the switch lined and the chase began! The crew on 636 were incredible. Gung ho, they WANTED to catch that train by the sounds of their voices on the radio. They caught up with the runaway just south of Blanchard. The city of Kenton, with its sharp curves laid ahead. The lone SD40-2, now coupled to the runaway, kicked the dynamic brakes on full and got immediate results, bringing the train down to a curve safe 20mph and less. The dispatcher then arranged for the Kenton local, with a lone GP38 and a covered hopper, to get in front of the runaway, if necessary, to pace, couple up, and buffer the train to a stop. The Q636's crew and Kenton local were placed in direct contact. Q636 gave the train speed every few seconds and the Kenton local got in a tangent where they could get a jump and engage the runaway as safely as possible under the circumstances. Finally, the runaway was slowed to 12mph. At State Route 31, a CSX trainmaster heroically, swung aboard and shut the throttle off on the errant locomotive and train. The Kenton local was just ahead and did not have to couple to the runaway. The situation in the cab reported by the trainmaster: run 8 throttle, 20lb reduction on the automatic, and full application on the independent. Amazingly, NOBODY WAS INJURED in this! The CSX folks deserve a tremendous pat on the back and congratulations for their handling of this extraordinary situation. I was there for almost the entire pursuit, never being more than 6 miles away and always in radio range. No one lost their cool and everyone was on the same page. There was some great crisis railroading being performed by the men out there today! A few THANK GOD things worth mentioning: 1. The train had its brakes applied and was dragging along, preventing higher speeds from being achieved. 2. The derail at Mortimer did not work. A hazmat disaster would have likely resulted in a semi populated area, right next to I-75. 3. No one was involved in a collision with the train. Remember, nobody was aboard to sound the horn and bell. 4. The cities of Findlay and Kenton have some significant curves. The train did not derail! 5. There were ample personnel along the line thanks to the OLS special today. As to how all of this got started, that is up for the investigators and I cannot speculate as I have no idea what happened in Toledo. What is typed above is my own account and any errors are mine alone. I have a recording of the radio traffic during the entire locomotive chase. I will make an mp3 tonight and post it someplace for all to hear. Will advise when it is complete. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BlockTruck@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 23:18:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] CSX runaway first hand account "a CSX maintainer had placed a derail on the track to derail the train. Everyone was out of the way, expecting a horrific wreck. Amazingly, the train RAN THROUGH the derail, kicking it out of the way!" Using a derail was a miscalculation. The situation clearly called for a shopping cart. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Viv Brice" Subject: [PRR] Runaway Train Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 18:37:57 +1000 The runaway train story made it to the national news here in Australia - most impressive footage especially when the guy who finally stopped it jumped aboard. Viv Brice, another SPF from down under ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 08:43:01 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: CSX runaway first hand account Lew, if that recording shows up, would you let us know where it is? Many thanks, Steve Bartlett Subject: CSX runaway first hand account From: "lmatt" Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 18:13:47 -0400 I got this today and thought many of you would like to read it. Lew Matt ======================================= Here is a firsthand account of the runaway by Eric landrum of Cincinnati. This was taken from his post to the WesternOhioRails list. This might be more accurate than what you'll hear on the national media! ................... I have a recording of the radio traffic during the entire locomotive chase. I will make an mp3 tonight and post it someplace for all to hear. Will advise when it is complete. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] Runaway CSX train Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 06:13:24 -0700 Oh, Greg... There is NO deadman switch on these locomotives... as ordered by the management, and not by the union. Please get your facts straight BEFORE you shoot your mouth off. As things were reported there was no contact with a union representative at all. See line 3 above for future reference. Do not rely on fat 4-Fing radio commentators who cannot otherwise earn an living for your information. Bill Daniels On Wed, 16 May 2001 13:27:37 -0400 "Gregg Mahlkov" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gregg Mahlkov" > To: "Andrews, Ted" > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 1:26 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Runaway CSX train > > > > Oh Ted, a local shop steward or chairman got ahold of > the reporter and fed > > him some BofLE or UTU lies and he bought it!!! It is > the union men that > > disable the "deadman switch" as it interferes with > their work as they see > > fit to do it. > > > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:23:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Runaway CSX train From: Jerry Britton On 5/17/01 9:13 AM, billd@gci-net.com (billd@gci-net.com) wrote: > There is NO deadman switch on these locomotives... > as ordered by the management, and not by the union. > > Please get your facts straight BEFORE you shoot your mouth > off. Please keep it civil!!! (Listmaster comment.) CNN's web site reports that the engineer admitted to CSX officials, following review of the event recorder, that only two of the three brakes were applied and that he accidentally hit the throttle lever when he thought he was applying the third brake. Who knows what distractions there may have been at the time, but with two brakes and the throttle engaged, movement was not immediate, allowing him time to leave the locomotive and start walking away before realizing what had happened. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:28:46 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: CSX runaway first hand account In a message dated 5/17/01 6:07:57 AM Pacific Daylight Time, sbartlet@capecod.net writes: << if that recording shows up, would you let us know where it is? >> That goes double for this cowboy. . . would love to hear it !! Jon S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: [PRR] J-1 6480 Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:46:18 -0400 Gentlemen: I am looking for photos of this engine. Perferably ones that are published. I know of one photo published in Pennsy Steam Years Vol. 2. It shows a rare shot of 6480 pulling an eastbound coal train in Bourbon, Indiana on the Fort Wayne line. (Note: it was rare for J-1's to be on the "speedway". Typically, they would run on the Chicago - Columbus line (a.k.a. "The Panhandle") that went through Logansport and Bradford, Ohio. At any rate, if any of you know of good 3/4 or side shots of 6480, please drop me a line. Thank you in advance! Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 09:59:38 -0400 From: Thomas Mahon Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] Runaway CSX train Gentlemen, Civility. Please. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH billd@gci-net.com wrote: > Oh, Greg... > > There is NO deadman switch on these locomotives... > > as ordered by the management, and not by the union. > > Please get your facts straight BEFORE you shoot your mouth > off. > > As things were reported there was no contact with a union > representative at all. See line 3 above for future > reference. Do not rely on fat 4-Fing radio commentators who > cannot otherwise earn an living for your information. > > Bill Daniels > > On Wed, 16 May 2001 13:27:37 -0400 > "Gregg Mahlkov" wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gregg Mahlkov" > > To: "Andrews, Ted" > > Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 1:26 PM > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Runaway CSX train > > > > > > > Oh Ted, a local shop steward or chairman got ahold of > > the reporter and fed > > > him some BofLE or UTU lies and he bought it!!! It is > > the union men that > > > disable the "deadman switch" as it interferes with > > their work as they see > > > fit to do it. > > > > > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 10:18:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] J-1 6480 Ted, With all the pics on Clint Chamberlin's site and all the J pics I have in my collection, none are of the 6480. Next number please! No really, there may be a published picture somewhere in all the books. If not that J must have spent its carer in the enginehouse away from cameras.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 12:27:21 EDT Subject: [PRR] Runaway CSX train In a message dated 5/17/01 8:17:42 AM Central Daylight Time, billd@gci-net.com writes: << There is NO deadman switch on these locomotives... as ordered by the management, and not by the union. >> Some local railroads here have them disabled, as well, by company decision, which is supported at least informally by the one or two engineers I know. Bob Zoeller Fox Point, WI ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 13:05:00 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Runaway Train Article From: Jerry Britton The Trains web site (www.trains.com) has an excellent account of yesterday's runaway CSX train. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Runaway CSX train Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 10:06:43 -0700 Sorry, Guys... I tend to get a bit antsy when I hear comments that are inflamitory in nature, such as the comment that Mr Markhov made regarding the unions, that are totally baseless. While it seems politically correct to bash unions these days, it should be remembered that many of the saftey rules in force today were pushed by the unions, over the strenuous objections of management. One that comes to mind was the 1930 requirement that all locomotives above a certain weight be equipped with stokers. When they were forced to apply stokers to their K4s locomotives, the true capacity of the boiler was finally achieved. But, since we often are familiar with the operations of the industry, we really should know better. Yes, many (if not most) engineers did disable the deadman feature on early diesels (note that no steam locomotive was ever equipped with such a feature) but I know of no union representative who condoned that action...at least in public. And as I follow various versions of this story on several lists, I am just amazed at the level of ignorance on how things work in a locomotive...one story claims that the engineer, upon seeing a switch lined the wrong way set the throttle in Run 8 and set the independent brake, to "stretch the train out" and jumped down to reline the switch (never mind that this is a violation of both union and management rules) and somehow missed getting back on board. All of this was supposedly to be done within 10 seconds. As a result, the train ran away burning it's brakeshoes to nubbins. Yeah. Right. Must've been abducted by aliens. Incidently, braking effort on locomotives (and automobiles as well) is designed so that the brakes can and will stop a locomotive against the powering effort of the locomotive. I don't care what CNN claims. Try it on your car. Floor the gas and stomp hard on the brakes. The car WILL stop (unless the brakes are defective)...these are designed this way on purpose. BTW, there is only one brake system on a locomotive(not counting the hand brake (which is only active on one wheel), or dynamic brakes, of course)...just two ways of implimenting it...train air, and independent air. I know of no 3rd brake system (unless you are refering to the dynamics which would be totally useless if the train were standing still) Train air sets the entire train, while the independent brake sets only the locomotive brakes (independent of the train's brakes). I find it incredulous that any engineer with any experience at all would just walk away from a unit in Run 8 and be oblivious of what was going on. Ever been near a locomotive in Run 8? Loud, isn't it? Very loud. As an aside to the younger members of this list who may not be familiar with the Selective Service (a.k.a. the draft), the term 4-F was a Selective Service catagory that states that a person is unfit for military duty, and has no 4-letter connotation. At least not officially. Regards, Bill Daniels On Thu, 17 May 2001 09:23:31 -0400 Jerry Britton wrote: > On 5/17/01 9:13 AM, billd@gci-net.com (billd@gci-net.com) > wrote: > > > There is NO deadman switch on these locomotives... > > as ordered by the management, and not by the union. > > > > Please get your facts straight BEFORE you shoot your > mouth > > off. > > Please keep it civil!!! (Listmaster comment.) > > CNN's web site reports that the engineer admitted to CSX > officials, > following review of the event recorder, that only two of > the three brakes > were applied and that he accidentally hit the throttle > lever when he thought > he was applying the third brake. Who knows what > distractions there may have > been at the time, but with two brakes and the throttle > engaged, movement was > not immediate, allowing him time to leave the locomotive > and start walking > away before realizing what had happened. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing > list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 13:29:06 -0400 Subject: [PRR] True Cause of CSX Runaway From: Jerry Britton Folks...listmeister here...the Runaway CSX train is a TANGENT for this list. However, I have allowed it as other list traffic is low, it is of general interest to a lot of folks here, the one locomotive involved was a former PRR locomotive I am told, and Lines West trackage was involved (I believe). However, some folks are getting quite "testy" with each other over the cause of this mishap. Please stop. Here is the definitive cause: The engineer applied two of three brakes an inadvertantly engaged the throttle instead of the third brake. Some have argued that nobody could possibly do this. Others have said there aren't three types of brakes. FOR THE RECORD, the CSX Transportation web site has a press release that indicates the cause is as I have identified above. So please, do not argue of what happened...one way or another, it did happen this way!!! I include the press release below, with the author's name and phone number. Should you care to disagree, please contact CSX!!! --------(snip)----- http://www.csxt.com/med/press/pressview.cfm?ID=6021 CSXT Press Release Cause Determined of Runaway Train   16-MAY-01  JACKSONVILLE, Fla.  CSX Transportation Inc. (CSXT) determined today that human error was the cause of an unmanned runaway train that traveled nearly 70 miles from Toledo, Ohio, to the Kenton, Ohio, vicinity yesterday afternoon. The company conducted an extensive investigation in conjunction with the Federal Railroad Administration that included interviews with all employees involved; an analysis of the data from the locomotive¹s event recorder, analogous to the ³black box² in the aviation industry; and a re-creation of the events at the company¹s rail yard in Toledo. All mechanical equipment was found to be working as intended. The engineer on the train, whose name was not released, told investigators that he had made an error in controlling the train. Prior to dismounting the locomotive to line a switch, he intended to engage the three types of brakes on the locomotive. He applied two brakes, but then inadvertently grabbed the throttle lever instead of the third braking lever. By the time he realized the error, he was already off the locomotive, and it was moving too quickly for him to climb aboard to stop the movement. ³The effect would be similar to pressing down on the brake and accelerator simultaneously in an automobile, but under much more complex circumstances,² said Alan F. Crown, executive vice president- transportation. ³This is a good employee, with 35 years of service and clean record. He acknowledged that he made a serious error in judgment, and he will be held accountable.² Crown said that despite the fact that CSXT has never experienced a similar incident over literally millions of locomotive moves, the company plans to inform all operating employees of the circumstances surrounding the incident, as well as alerting others in the rail industry to heighten awareness. Crown also recognized the extraordinary support of CSXT¹s employees and the community agencies in the emergency. ³A debt of thanks goes to every agency up and down this rail line who responded,² Crown said. ³Their efforts were critical to ensuring the safe outcome of this incident.² Crown added his congratulations to Trainmaster Jon Hosfeld, Engineer Jess Knowlton and Conductor Terry Forson, whose courageous actions as part of the crisis response team slowed and ultimately stopped the train. CSXT and its 35,000 employees provide rail transportation and distribution services over an 23,000 route-mile network in 23 states the District of Columbia and two Canadian provinces. CSXT is a business unit of CSX Corporation, headquartered in Richmond, Va.          Contacts:  Kathleen A. Burns  Daniel J. Murphy  904-366-2949 ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] CSXT Runaway Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 13:39:32 -0400 List: For an excellent account by a reporter that knows railroads see http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/A371118-2001May16.html if that does not work get the same article through www.iamoka.com and click on the first article. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Fw: CSXT Runaway Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 13:41:46 -0400 There were too many "!"'s in the URL! Gregg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" To: Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 1:39 PM Subject: CSXT Runaway > List: > > For an excellent account by a reporter that knows railroads see > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/A37118-2001May16.html if that does not > work get the same article through www.iamoka.com and click on the first > article. > > Gregg Mahlkov > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 13:54:40 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Runaway CSX train In a message dated 5/17/01 9:37:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << Some local railroads here have them disabled, as well, by company decision, which is supported at least informally by the one or two engineers I know. >> Bob and List I know manny engineers that the first thing they do when they enter the cab . . . is if the deadman pedal is not diabled they reach in thier grip, pull out a fusie and jam it under the pedal ! ! ! ! Jon S. Menomonee Falls, WI PRRT&HS #3079 FRRM of PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:38:30 -0400 Subject: [PRR] PRR E-8's on Horseshoe Curve Again? You Bet! From: Jerry Britton I learned this afternoon that Bennett Levin's PRR-restored E-8's (class EP22) will pull the excursion trains at this year's RailFest event, slated for Oct. 6-7 in Altoona!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR E-8's on Horseshoe Curve Again? You Bet! Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:55:00 -0400 Great!!, but can we get a full train of PRR cars behind them? Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 3:39 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] PRR E-8's on Horseshoe Curve Again? You Bet! I learned this afternoon that Bennett Levin's PRR-restored E-8's (class EP22) will pull the excursion trains at this year's RailFest event, slated for Oct. 6-7 in Altoona!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 16:12:22 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] CSXT Runaway In a message dated 5/17/01 12:42:40 PM Central Daylight Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: << For an excellent account by a reporter that knows railroads >> Either Don Phillips is knowledgable about the railroads or he is just one fine reporter good at getting facts straight. Either way, he restores my faith in journalism for that and being able to explain it in clear English, using similes we can all understand (dynamic brakes analagous to downshifting your car, e.g.). I note he and Carruthers also put the "hazardous material" in proper perspective, pointing out that it is used in diluted form in mouthwashes. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 16:29:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] Handrails and MOW paint Three questions on paint colors (realizing full well that weathering will change whatever the factory starts with): 1. I think I know the answer to this one: in painting the Genesis handrails, everything I see in paint charts indicates the handrails on diesels are the same color as the body, i.e., tuscan on tuscan, DLGE on DGLE. Anyone have documents to the contrary? 2. On the safety paint on handrails, I have usually used reefer yellow. Some photos give the impression they are close to the buff llettering and striping color (I understand UP Armour Yellow is a close match), but again that might be weathering. What about something like Testor's Safety Yellow? BTW, I know I have seen a reference to the prototype color spec somewhere, but can't find it. Anyone else? 3. In painting my Westerfield cars, I have some Pollyscale MOW gray. Someone on the list also mentioned D&H Gray as a good match. Any opinions? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 16:58:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR E-8's on Horseshoe Curve Again? You Bet! In a message dated 5/17/01 12:55:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << I learned this afternoon that Bennett Levin's PRR-restored E-8's (class EP22) will pull the excursion trains at this year's RailFest event, slated for Oct. 6-7 in Altoona!!! >> Jerry & List, With all this garbage of Run A Way "Haz-Mat Trains", Union B.S., News Reporters who wouldn't know a train if it craled up there leg and bit them on thier Cabin Car, Three Brakes Or Two brakes and a Throttle and All the rest. . . This is with out a doubt the best news I've heard in a long time ! ! ! ! Jon S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 17:00:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR E-8's on Horseshoe Curve Again? You Bet! In a message dated 5/17/01 1:06:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cpc1@westchestergov.com writes: << Great!!, but can we get a full train of PRR cars behind them? >> I think this falls in the " One Thing At A Time " file ! ! ! ! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 17:36:21 EDT Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] Runaway CSX train Bill: As you seem to have personal knowledge of these locomotives, could you please explain how the throttle could possible end up in run 8. Even if the crew had the loco idling or moving slowly while attending switches, it does not seem reasonable that the throttle would be in run 8. Not making any accusations, just inquiring how this could happen. Often what seems reasonable of logical is not. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 17:49:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] True Cause of CSX Runaway In a message dated 05/17/2001 1:42:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > Others have said there aren't three types of brakes. Jerry: I would assume the three brakes are 1) dynamic; 2) locomotive and 3) train. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 11:27:25 -0400 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] Runaway CSX train So far I have not seen the specific make and model of the locomotive mentioned. On some newer power, according to my EC99 air brake instructions, there is now an "electric parking brake." I have no personal experience with this feature, but it may be the "third type" of brakes being discussed. In any event, I find it mystifying that an engineer would get off an engine even for a moment without at least putting the reverser in neutral and shutting off the generator field. Two years ago I was working alone in the cab and had to routinely leave the engine for one to two minutes to operate a set of crossing gates, 6 times a day. I always had it in neutral with gen field off. Steve Bartlett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 11:21:47 +0000 Subject: Re: [PRR] Runaway CSX train > Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 11:27:25 -0400 > From: Stephen Bartlett > To: PRR-Talk > Subject: Re: [PRR] Runaway CSX train > So far I have not seen the specific make and model of the < locomotive mentioned. I believe it was SD40-2 #8888, which was formerly Conrail's #6410. Roger Roger Hensley rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ == == Railroads of Madison County (Indiana) == ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Runaway CSX train Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 12:40:31 -0400 It' definitely 8888. so it must be a SD40-2. Would they have the electric brake that was mentioned. They are pretty old. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 13:13:51 EDT Subject: [PRR] N5 cabins from Kato in N? Not my scale, and maybe it is old news to SPF N-scalers, but I got lost on the Kato website and they show what appears to be a PRR N5 cabin car in future production. Already out? Not true? Just curious, not trying to start a rumor. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 13:27:26 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Runaway CSX train Steve: It was an SD40-2 CSXT 8888. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 13:35:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] N5 cabins from Kato in N? From: Jerry Britton On 5/18/01 1:13 PM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: > Not my scale, and maybe it is old news to SPF N-scalers, but I got lost on > the Kato website and they show what appears to be a PRR N5 cabin car in > future production. Already out? Not true? Just curious, not trying to start a > rumor. > That "poster" has been there awhile. It shows all of the planned releases for 2000-2001. With the exception of the caboose, the only two not officially announced (partnumbers, road names, price) are the Amtrak Genesis locomotive and the Amtrak Superliner cars. Kato: http://www.katousa.com/images/2000Poster/CABOOSE_780.jpg Bowser: http://www.bowser-trains.com/N%20Frt%20Photos/N-5/37121.jpg As for the caboose, I do not believe it is supposed to be an N5. Several spotting differences: * Shape of main windows * Size of windows in cupola * Style of steps * Lack of roofwalk above right ends * Rivet pattern on sides * Cupola does not appear to be offset ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lmatt" Subject: Re: [PRR] Handrails and MOW paint Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:48:01 -0400 It seems that for every "this-is-the-way-it-is" statement, PRR manages to have an exception or two! Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Hoxie" To: Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 10:32 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Handrails and MOW paint > Hi Bob--Everybody including me is studying F pictures intently. Your first > question might seem like it has the obvious answer-- > > > > 1. I think I know the answer to this one: in painting the Genesis > handrails, > > everything I see in paint charts indicates the handrails on diesels are > the > > same color as the body, i.e., tuscan on tuscan, DLGE on DGLE. Anyone > >have > > documents to the contrary? > > > but--no documents to the contrary, but how about a couple of photos. > > In Don Ball's "Pennsylvania Railroad 1940s -1950s" check out EFP-15 9833 on > p. 106: it appears that, on this tuscan red engine, the handrails and grabs > are black (or DGLE). Now look at the trailing A unit in the same photo: on > this DGLE engine the handrails to the cab (only) are the same shade of > yellow as the stripe and lettering. In Plant/Yanosey's "Pennsylvania > Standard Railroad of the World", Volume 1, on p. 94 and 95 EF15 9540 also > shows up with yellow handrails to the cab, but trailing 9524 has all its > handrails DGLE. Go figure. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 21:35:11 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Handrails and MOW paint In a message dated 5/17/01 10:46:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, steveh@dotstar.net writes: << "Pennsylvania Standard Railroad of the World", >> As usual, The "Standard Railray of the World" turns out to be not so standard - one detail that did make sense was the yellow stripe on the rain gutters of the "C" Liners - peculiar to that engine. A friend, now deceased, told me that these locos did not have the same headroom at the tops of the ladders - and that the yellow accent was actually a reminder to duck. Many crew members hit their heads and fell all the way to the ballast! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 19:40:56 -0700 Subject: [PRR] P70 round-bottomed appendage Hi everyone, I'm trying to detail a model of a P70 coach to match a specific car. After looking over a truckload of P70 photos, I noticed most P70 photos show a large round-bottomed piece of underbody equipment. As good a view as any can be found in the recent publication "Passenger Equipment of the Pennsylvania Railroad Vol 1 Coaches" on page 8. Both photos on this page have the item located beneath the letterboard letters "NSY" (within "PENNSYLVANIA"). Can anyone tell me what this thing is??? Some type of tank? Somethng else? Inquiring minds want to know... Thanx - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 12:54:42 -0400 From: Robert Wickus Subject: [PRR] PRR passenger trains for sale List: I have the following brass PR% pasenger trains for sale: 1. 12 car Liberty Limited by Cghallenger. Factory painted. 2 12 car Broadway Limited by Oriental Limited and Great Brass Fleet. Custom painted in 1938 "Fleet of Modernism" scheme. 3 12 car Congressional/Senator. 9 S. Soho cars, 2 Oriental Limited cars, and 1 Loccomotive Workshop (Australia) car. Unpainted. The above are for sale as sts only. If anyone is interested, please contact me off-list. I apoligize for the commercialism. Bob Wickus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] Re: CSX runaway Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 18:13:27 -0700 List, Sean Simon posted this on the Santa Fe list this afternoon, and I thought it might be of interest...sorry it dosen't have any PRR content, but since there has been a lot of interest in this subject, and a lot of conjecture (from ALL sides) floating around, I think it might be of interest... Bill Daniels As a former CR locomotive engineer now employed by NS, and one who was privy to a preliminary report issued to other RR's by CSX, I can say with some certainty that the alerter did NOT fail. Conrail (the CSX unit is question is a former CR SD40-2) set up their alerters so that they automatically "cut out" if an independent brake application of more than 25 psi was applied (so that the alerter would not cycle on a stopped train). Allegedly, information from the event recorder download indicates that such an application did in fact occur, and that the unit being in a high enough throttle setting caused the traction motors to overcome the locomotive's own brakes and continued to move the train. Since the alerter had "dropped out" as intended, the train could have kept rolling all day long. Furthermore, no engineer in their right mind would even think of tampering with an alerter. Get caught by the company doing so, and you are out on the street. Get caught by the feds doing so, and you are looking at a $10,000 or more PERSONAL (not to the company) fine for a willful FRA violation. I'll also add that, from what I saw in the report, that CSX appears to have found information that does not support their official statements or the claims of the engineer. I won't get into those here, as I myself have not seen the full download from the event recorder and will not make the same allegations that CSX is without seeing the proof.... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Price" Subject: [PRR] F-3(EF-15) Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 23:46:58 -0000 Hey all, With the Highliners F-units finally being release, it has spurred me to create a few more models. Looking through photos I'm trying to find where the various phases fit into the number system. On page 351 0f Pennsy Power 3 , 9541 looks to be a phase 3 unit(chicken wire on the upper panel), while on page 352, 9532 appears to be a phase 4 unit. The pic for 9532 is dated 1960. I'm wondering if perhaps some of the phase 3 units had their chicken wire replaced with Farr type grill? I'm also curious if anyone knows how many of the phase 3 unite were delivered? thanks Ed ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Laird" Subject: [PRR] F Series Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 09:28:12 -0500 I am looking for some information on PRR F series diesels. In addition to modeling in HO, I also build in 1 1/2" and 2 1/2" scales (both run on 7 1/2" gauge tracks). I am wanting o construct a PRR passenger train in 1 1/2" scale. I wan to build an F series diesel to pull the train. I chose an F series diesel because many of the major components are available commercially, the electric motors from Roll Models, the 2 axle EMD trucks from Murry Design & Manufacturing, and the shell (fiberglass) from Railway Supply. My questions are: 1. Did any F-7's routinely pull PRR passenger trains, if so picture references would be appreicated? 2. Were any F-7's painted Tuscan (again, picture references)? 3. I know some FP-7's were in Tuscan and pulled passenger trains. What were the major differences between FP-7's and F-7's (other than FP-7's being about 4 feet longer to accomodiate the steam generator)? 4. Any additional information about any F series diesels pulling passenger trains. Thanks for any input. Bill Laird Canyon Lake, Texas Bill.Laird@usa.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:44:18 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Coaches -- Was "R" Dropped? From: Jerry Britton I'm looking over the passenger car diagrams on Rob's site (prr.railfan.net). I'm wondering of the "R" designation (indicating air conditioning) was dropped in later years. Two prominent cars are missing from Rob's list, but they are there if you drop the "R" suffix. Specifically... P70K is there, but not P70KR P85B is there, but not P85BR Can anyone comment on this? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:09:50 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] F Series Bill asked: >I am looking for some information on PRR F series diesels. >1. Did any F-7's routinely pull PRR passenger trains? NO >2. Were any F-7's painted Tuscan (again, picture references)? NO >3. I know some FP-7's were in Tuscan and pulled passenger trains. What >were the major differences between FP-7's and F-7's (other than FP-7's being >about 4 feet longer to accomodiate the steam generator)? Now one thing that confuses the heck out of me is that you can apparently have an F series (including F-7) loco with a steam generator for passenger use that is not an FP-7...so why was the extra lenght needed? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] F Series Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 09:58:30 -0700 Bill asked: 3. I know some FP-7's were in Tuscan and pulled passenger trains. What were the major differences between FP-7's and F-7's (other than FP-7's being about 4 feet longer to accomodiate the steam generator)? and Dr. Bruce answered and asked: Now one thing that confuses the heck out of me is that you can apparently have an F series (including F-7) loco with a steam generator for passenger use that is not an FP-7...so why was the extra length needed? The extra length also allowed extra room for larger boiler water tanks along with the steam generator - Pennsy's FP7s have a large transverse tank mounted on the underframe directly ahead of the fuel tank, a unique Pennsy spotting feature. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Conan Evans" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR E-8's on Horseshoe Curve Again? You Bet! Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 12:57:47 -0400 To answer that question... I could be possible. VRE has several "Heritage" cars with their PRR heritage posted up on the ends. I've seen some running on the VRE; I think these may have gone to VRE from MARC when MARC got their bi-levels. To any extent, the possibility exists. Conan Evans -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Chany, Christopher Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 3:55 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR E-8's on Horseshoe Curve Again? You Bet! Great!!, but can we get a full train of PRR cars behind them? Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2001 3:39 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] PRR E-8's on Horseshoe Curve Again? You Bet! I learned this afternoon that Bennett Levin's PRR-restored E-8's (class EP22) will pull the excursion trains at this year's RailFest event, slated for Oct. 6-7 in Altoona!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:08:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] F Series In a message dated 5/21/01 9:27:30 AM Central Daylight Time, blaird@gvtc.com writes: << 1. Did any F-7's routinely pull PRR passenger trains, if so picture references would be appreicated?>> No. << 2. Were any F-7's painted Tuscan (again, picture references)?>> No. << 3. I know some FP-7's were in Tuscan and pulled passenger trains. What were the major differences between FP-7's and F-7's (other than FP-7's being about 4 feet longer to accomodate the steam generator)? >> The length plus the large air tank behind the lead truck are the obvious ones. I'll leave it to the real diesel grognards who I'm sure can come up with some more detailed differences. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:12:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Coaches -- Was "R" Dropped? In a message dated 5/21/01 9:59:09 AM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << I'm wondering of the "R" designation (indicating air conditioning) was dropped in later years. >> Yes, but does someone have the date? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:23:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] F Series In a message dated 5/21/01 12:05:29 PM Central Daylight Time, bhom3@home.com writes: << The extra length also allowed extra room for larger boiler water tanks along with the steam generator - Pennsy's FP7s have a large transverse tank mounted on the underframe directly ahead of the fuel tank, a unique Pennsy spotting feature. >> PPII (I recognize not always a good source) says this was an airtank. It might be that the airtank had to be moved there to allow for larger water capacity inboard (similar to the torpedo-tube GP7s used on the Valpo dummies). Back to the library :-). But the question remains why Sante Fe and Rio Grande, among others, were able to use (to my knowledge) regular F7s in passenger service. Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] F Series Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:14:06 -0700 Bob Zoeller remarked: But the question remains why Sante Fe and Rio Grande, among others, were able to use (to my knowledge) regular F7s in passenger service. Can't speak for Santa Fe or Rio Grande, but Southern Pacific had 54 passenger-equipped A units that looked like regular freight units because they lacked steam generators. What made them passenger-equipped units was a steam generator control panel on the fireman's dashboard, and they were intended to be run in sets with steam generator equipped B units, which had room for a 1400 gallon boiler water tank. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] F-3(EF-15) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:32:05 -0500 Hi Ed--You just may have opened a small can of worms with your F-3 questions. First 9532 which you spotted on p. 352 of PPIII. It also is in the top photo on the previous page, p. 351, the engine on the left end of the consist. You wrote: > >I'm wondering if perhaps some of the phase 3 units had their chicken > wire replaced with Farr type grill? > The answer is probably, but not 9532. With the stainless grill, I think it is safe to call 9532 a phase IV. The caption for the top photo on p. 351 is not entirely accurate. These engines were not "regeared for helper service". The regearing went the other way: from helper service to general use. Also it isn't Altoona; the catenary suggests it is Enola, maybe Harrisburg. Also since 9505 still has its coupler doors intact, it may be earlier than 1955. Now 9541, which you spotted in the lower photo on p. 351 with chicken wire in the upper panel. Using the roster info in the back of Pennsy Diesel Years, Vol. 1, both 9532 and 9541 were in the same 17 A-unit order in 1948, 9529-9545 with 9542-9545 class EH15 helpers. Looking at other engines in this order, I also have photos of 9531, 9536, and 9538; they all have stainless grills. On p. 350 of PPIII the lower photo shows 9543 with stainless grill, but no helper stripe on the door in this 1961 photo (another caption error--it is definitely not an F-7). Now here is where the can begins to open: in Plant/Yanosey's "Pennsylvania Standard Railroad of the World" on pp. 94-95 are a couple of photos of 9540--with chicken wire just like 9541. This 17 engine order sure was a mixed up lot. Some questions--did EMD deliver both phase IV (lower numbers) and phase III (higher numbers) in the same order? Probably not--our modelers' phase designations don't always work. It may have simply been that EMD had insufficient stainless grills on hand for the whole order. The bottom line-model from a photo! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] F Series Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 13:43:12 -0500 Hi Bill--You are getting some good reponse. You wrote: > > 3. I know some FP-7's were in Tuscan and pulled passenger trains. > PRR FP-7's 9832-9835 were Tuscan, but the DGLE FP-7's were also used at times in passenger service. Oddly, most of the published photos of the Tuscan engines show them in freight service based out of Enola. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:09:07 EDT From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] F7 vsFP7 I wonder if EMD recommended FP7's and they got a premium price for them over an F7 or if there may have been bigger boilers in the FP7? I don't know steam consumption for heating or cooling but heating may have taken more steam making F7's impractical in colder areas. If I were an EMD salesman I would be pushing the ease of maintenance and space in an FP7 over an F7. Just a thought. N Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 17:21:56 -0400 Subject: [PRR] G-31 drawings needed From: Jerry Britton Listers... I have a major manufacturer who is interested in "PRR G31B, G-31D, G-31H and G-31K and any other G-31 gondola" drawings. Can anyone supply any? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:57:17 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] G-31 drawings needed >Listers... > >I have a major manufacturer who is interested in "PRR G31B, G-31D, G-31H and >G-31K and any other G-31 gondola" drawings. Can anyone supply any? >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS I assume that they've been to Rob's G31 page? http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=G31 Try to make sure that they include the little W in a circle to indicate nailable wood floors... Any idea when this "circle W" use started? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 20:59:06 EDT Subject: [PRR] Spark arrestors About when did the PRR began to install spark arrestors on switchers, some covered wagons? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 01:38:17 EDT Subject: YIKES! [PRR] F-3(EF-15) YIKES! Ed, Steve and all... > Hi Ed--You just may have opened a small can of worms with your F-3 questions....(SNIP) < Oh boy, Steve is right ... this might help or confuse... ED wrote: >>I'm wondering if perhaps some of the phase 3 units had their chicken wire replaced with FARR type grill?<< Steve Writes... >The answer is probably, but not 9532. With the stainless grill, I think it is safe to call 9532 a phase IV. The caption for the top photo on p. 351 is not entirely accurate. These engines were not "regeared for helper service." The regearing went the other way from helper service to general use. Also it isn't Altoona; the catenary suggests it is Enola, maybe Harrisburg. Also since 9505 still has its coupler doors intact, it may be earlier than 1955.< Steve is right on the money... 9505 and 9532 were often seen together in the Enola pool and there is a shot of 9595 on pg. 87 in the PRR Golden Triangle at yellow Creek so perhaps Enola to Columbus, but can't tell the trailing unit numbers. >Now 9541, which you spotted in the lower photo on p. 351 with chicken wire in the upper panel. Using the roster info in the back of Pennsy Diesel Years, Vol. 1, both 9532 and 9541 were in the same 17 A-unit order in 1948,< Steve I am not sure who is right or wrong but I show PRR/EMD Order # E896 was for the following units 9520A-9528A, 9540A-9541A, 9520B-9527B, and 9540B delivered in 5-6/48 delivery... These I show to be phase 3 body style. >9529-9545 with 9542-9545 class EH15 helpers.< Well, I show PRR/EMD order # E921 covered units #9529A-9539A, 9556A-9561A, 9563A-9567A, and 9677A-9678A.These I show to be the be Phase 4 body style. Let's not go into the F-5 Helper units. >Looking at other engines in this order, I also have photos of 9531, 9536, and 9538; they all have stainless grills. On p. 350 of PPIII the lower photo shows 9543 with stainless grill, but no helper stripe on the door in this 1961 photo (another caption error--it is definitely not an F-7). Now here is where the can begins to open: in Plant/Yanosey's "Pennsylvania Standard Railroad of the World" on pp. 94-95 are a couple of photos of 9540--with chicken wire just like 9541. This 17 engine order sure was a mixed up lot.< Perhaps not if you consider my break down... > Some questions--did EMD deliver both phase IV (lower numbers) and phase III (higher numbers) in the same order? Probably not--our modelers' phase designations don't always work.< No, and the phase designations are just a tool to help us better understand what we are looking at when we see a particular F-unit. The phases were created by the folks at EXTRA 2200 SOUTH magazine for modelers as well as railfans. >It may have simply been that EMD had insufficient stainless grills on hand for the whole order. The bottom line-model from a photo! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL < It was Pennsy's ordering patterns and numbering system that is the culprit not EMD's ability to supply materials. Remember, in many cases blocks of steam locomotives had to be renumbered or retired to accommodate the diesel numbering system, so let take baby steps. My article forthcoming should clear the air on the PRR's F-units and the antenna mast system as well as your modeling choices. I am preparing a sidebar to a forthcoming article by Gary Mitner that will touch on his locomotive. Keep a watchful eye out for a firm date in Model Railroading. I just need a photo or two... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 03:55:00 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Capacity of H21 hoppers On page 318 of the 1915 CT1000 there is a little table. I quote a part of it. "List showing approximate weight in tons of certain Pennsylvania freight cars, for the assistance of conductors in reporting weights of empty cars and in estimating weights of cars and lading where not shown on card waybills: Steel Hopper: Class H21 and H21a 100,000 pounds capacity 23 tons 105,000 pounds capacity 23 tons 110,000 pounds capacity 23 tons 130,000 pounds capacity 24 tons 140,000 pounds capacity 24 tons" I had been under the impression that the H21, as designed, had a capacity of 50 tons (100,000 lb); and after some rebuilding and replacing the archbar trucks with Crown trucks, 70 tons (140,000 lb). So why the other entries in the table? They suggest there were H21's rated at 52.5 tons, 55 tons, and 65 tons. What gives? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: [PRR] Re: H-43 hoppers Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 09:05:19 -0400 Group: Sometime ago there was a discussion of the "Correct" color for the yellow? disk on the H-43 open hopper. There was also discussion ref; the purpose of the disk as well. If anyone was part of that discussion or can remember that information, I'd appreciate the info sent to me. As soon as I get the correct disk color, I am having decals made in "O" Scale to letter a number of operating and non-operating, "Harry Roberts" hoppers. If there is an interest here or on the oscale list, I'll make some extra copies. I would offer these decals at my cost. BUT please contact me so I know how many extra sets to order. Since my printer will do a large sheet, I assume the cost to be in the 7 to 10 dollar range, but again whatever my cost is your cost. I am a hobbyist and this is not a commercial enterprise. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: YIKES! [PRR] F-3(EF-15) YIKES! Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 06:52:01 -0700 Oh, well, here I go wading in until I am up to my butt in alligators... A couple of non-PRR comments regarding these locomotives and EMD. First of all, as I understand it, as time went by EMD no longer offered replacement carbody parts for older F-series locomotives. For example, the carbody vents that were used on late F-3's through mid-series F-7's were only replaceable with the newer vents as used on late F-7's and F-9's. The Grand Trunk Western had a batch of F-3's that in later years were indistinguishible from F-9's. (GTW didn't use dynamic brakes back then so the brake vent/fan was not a spotting feature). I have been led to believe that as these parts needed replacement they were replaced with newer vents and other carbody parts, making them appear to be F-9's. Of course, the GTW only hade F-3's so spotting was easy. This is probably a factor in why PRR F-3's changed their appearance in later years. Secondly, Steve's comment about EMD being temporairly out of FARR grills has a parallel on the Santa Fe. The AT&SF took delivery of a batch of 200-class F-7's that did not have the charachteristic stainless steel FARR air grills, and as a result had no grills attached. It is reasonable to believe that the PRR also had a problem about this time. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:25:03 -0400 Subject: [PRR] 1956 Division Accounting Maps From: Jerry Britton Does anyone have a full set of 1956 Division Accounting Maps? These sets of maps were created for each of the major reorgs. 1956 is when the PRR went to 9 regions. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 09:01:01 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] F Series In a message dated 5/22/01 7:59:21 AM Central Daylight Time, jlrosen@wpa.net writes: << Only SF B uints had steam generator. Don't know about RG. >> Thanks for that memory jog. I guess I did read that somewhere in the distant past. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 14:18:52 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - AOL Users (from Listmaster) From: Jerry Britton Food for thought...please DO NOT RESPOND ON-LIST. Thank you. AOL users on the DSOP.COM lists are all-too-aware of the problem AOL has created by making MIME/HTML the default (and unchangeable) format for outbound mail. Due to it, you have been unable to post to our lists since upgrading to version 6. To recap, the listserv blocks the MIME/HTML format because it is the most widely used method of distributing viruses these days. Over all of my lists, I have over 1000 constituents to consider, and spreading viruses is not part of the plan!!! To date, your options have been: 1) Send e-mail via AOL's forms-based interface. 2) Use AOL to make your Internet connection, but then minimize it and use another e-mail client, such as Microsoft's Outlook Express (free). 3) Change Internet Service Providers (ISP). Update: AOL announced today that, as of its July billings, it is increasing its monthly fees by 9%, to $23.95 per month. I am suggesting that all AOL users seriously consider switching ISP's. You should be able to get full dial-up service from a traditional ISP for $15 per month or less. This would save you $96 per year and resolve your list posting issue at the same time. Food for thought...please do not respond on-list. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmaster ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 14:45:43 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] FW: Videos or 16mm of PA RR S-1 Friends, See below - is there anyone out there who can assist Tom? If so please contact him directly, his addresses are included, PLEASE DON'T PUT ME IN THE LOOP. Thanx. Al -----Original Message----- From: Tom & Pam Blinn [mailto:tblinn@home.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 1:37 PM To: abbuchan1@home.com Subject: FW: Videos or 16mm of PA RR S-1 Alan I have an immediate need for some action shots of the Pennsy S-1, designed by Raymond Loewy, for an advertising promotion. Are you aware of any action shots that we could use for a 2 minute background scene? I recall seeing some on Horseshoe bend or another place there were multiple tracks. The time frame that I need this is short. If you could refer to a video I could purchase or some one who could copy a 16mm segment onto a VHS that would work. The Image will be running in the background and the quality of the shot doesn't have to be perfect. Please let me know ASAP if you can help. Tom Blinn 2328 Gloria Court Pleasanton, CA 94588 925-484-3644 tblinn@home.com "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] FW: Videos or 16mm of PA RR S-1 Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 14:45:43 -0400 Friends, See below - is there anyone out there who can assist Tom? If so please contact him directly, his addresses are included, PLEASE DON'T PUT ME IN THE LOOP. Thanx. Al -----Original Message----- From: Tom & Pam Blinn [mailto:tblinn@home.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 1:37 PM To: abbuchan1@home.com Subject: FW: Videos or 16mm of PA RR S-1 Alan I have an immediate need for some action shots of the Pennsy S-1, designed by Raymond Loewy, for an advertising promotion. Are you aware of any action shots that we could use for a 2 minute background scene? I recall seeing some on Horseshoe bend or another place there were multiple tracks. The time frame that I need this is short. If you could refer to a video I could purchase or some one who could copy a 16mm segment onto a VHS that would work. The Image will be running in the background and the quality of the shot doesn't have to be perfect. Please let me know ASAP if you can help. Tom Blinn 2328 Gloria Court Pleasanton, CA 94588 925-484-3644 tblinn@home.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 19:55:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: Videos or 16mm of PA RR S-1 << I recall seeing some on Horseshoe bend or another place there were multiple tracks. >> Horseshoe bend ? ? ? ? I've been a PRR fan for over thirtyfive (ouch!) years now. . . and I gotta say thats the first time I've ever heard that one ! And lets see another place that has multiple tracks. . . Well heck ! That narrows it down now, dosen't it ! ? ! ? (Sorry, I just couldn't help mysel ! !) Jon S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 23:51:17 -0400 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] CSX runaway first hand account (this comment applies to all RRs, including PRR...) BlockTruck@aol.com wrote: > "a CSX maintainer had placed a derail on the track to derail the train. > Everyone was out of the way, expecting a horrific wreck. Amazingly, the > train RAN THROUGH the derail, kicking it out of the way!" > Using a derail was a miscalculation. The situation clearly called for a > shopping cart. Or a car trailer (cf the recent instance in the UK....) Derails have a tendency of not working when run thru at speed. They shatter, or just get overrun. They are designed for low speed work... Worth trying, in the instance case, but the failure was more or less probable... best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 00:05:31 EDT Subject: [PRR] Chicago coal In a message dated 4/6/01 1:11:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal From: "Bob Poortinga" Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 23:15:42 -0500 "Bob Zoeller" writes: > Always a little frustrating to me as a modeler of the > Chicago Division, because, though I don't know it for sure, I believe the > huge mills around Gary, Indiana, got most of their material by boat. The mills in Gary/East Chicago received most of their ore (and another important ingredient in iron making, limestone) by boat. However, little, if any, coal was shipped was boat. Coal for USS Gary Works was hauled by the PRR on both the PFW&C (delivered to the EJ&E at Clarke yard) and the Pan Handle (delivered to the EJ&E at Hartsdale) with the bulk going via Hartsdale. Other railroads hauling coal to Gary Works included the B&O via Curtis yard, the Nickel Plate (N&W) via Van Loon, the C&O via Griffith, the Monon via Dyer, the NYC via Pine yard and via Hartsdale (CCC&StL Danville branch), the C&EI via Chicago Heights, the IC via Mattoon, and the GM&O via Joliet. This coal originated in various locales such as southern Illinois, southern Indiana, and eastern Kentucky. It is also quite possilbe that coal from southeastern Ohio, western Pennsylvania, and West Virginia found its way to Gary. >> Based on our "lake coal" discussions a year or two ago, once we start talking about coal tonnage, it can be very hard to stop... At that time, we talked about the "Lake coal" that went into boats at Chicago, Toledo, Sandusky, and elsewhere, to move up the Great Lakes to users elsewhere(especially steel mills). But steel mill coal is another story... As both a PRR and L&N fan, I've been looking for substantive traffic records of the coal traffic to Chicago. Certainly, L&N's Eastern Kentucky Branch (east of Winchester KY) is known to have supplied coal to Chicago steel mills via Cincinnati (with competing routes via PRR, NYC, C&O of Indiana, etc.) and via Louisville (up the PRR through Indianapolis and possibly up the Monon). The cars were built into mainline trains at Ravenna KY and entered the L&N mainline at Patio (Winchester KY). L&N's online mines in southeastern Kentucky, on the Cumberland Valley Branch, were even more extensive; "road" trains came out of either Loyall on the Branch, or from Corbin, where the CV met the L&N Cincinnati-Knoxville main. Some of these CV mines and the associated prep plants were actually owned and operated by US Steel and by Wisconsin Steel (International Harvester); their output was obviously metallurgical coal, not steam coal for heating or power plants. The PRR in Indiana also had its own coal sources, located in the south half of the state. The lion's share of PRR-originated coal was off the Vincennes Branch and up through Indianapolis, but some was from coal branches in the Terre Haute/Brazil area, just east of the Illinois line. I've read that the Pennsy originated over 3 million tons of coal a year out of Indiana (knowing which years would be nice). Note that the PRR's 1916 construction of the Indianapolis & Frankfort line was a big help in moving coal north off the Vincennes Branch or north over the Louisville Division, as it could handle heavier cars and more trains north of Indy than the previous PRR trackage rights on the Lake Erie & Western to Kokomo. Incidentally, in this era, the LE&W was still an NYCS property; it became NKP in the 20's. It makes sense that all the PRR-delivered Chicago coal, whether from the N&W /C&O via Columbus, from N&W/C&O/L&N via Cincinnati, from L&N at Louisville, or from online Indiana mines, would funnel through Logansport. This helps explain why Logansport IN had such extensive PRR yards. Rick Tipton Louisville, KY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jpk815@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 09:49:58 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR 1361 pics @ steamtown Two items: 1.) I'll be using a new e-mail which is: jpk815@yahoo.com and will resubscribe under that e-mail. And, 2.) I just made a trip to upstate NY with a stopover @ Steamtown. I got the tour of the shops and saw 1361. They look like they're getting close to fixing the boiler. They were doing some kind of heat test on it that day. Pics of that and other steamtown stuff in my yahoo briefcase. Look in the folder called "steamtown" http://y42.briefcase.yahoo.com/jpk815 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:01:50 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Fw: Fw: PRR and the Microsoft Train Simulator, MSTS From: Fred G Rea My apologies for hitting all the lists with this, I just don't want to miss anyone who might be interested. As most of you know, MSTS is due to be released in a few weeks. There are several web sites that show examples of pictures from MSTS. Other than the Accela/NEC there is little in it directly associated with the PRR. It is my understanding that third parties, will be able to create data sets for specific routes, and rr equipment. These data sets can then be given away, exchanged or even sold to others. I am sure many of us would love to see everything from K4s, T1s, P70s to N6bs in it. The only steam that comes with MSTS is a British locomotive. I would really love to see what it takes to get an I1 and a coal drag up the Elmira branch, or race a T1 and a mail train along the Panhandle. I am wondering if a new list, PRR-MSTS or a bulletin board might be of interest to a significant number of you. It would be a meeting place for those who know the PRR, have computer skills and tools to create the models, or just want to get PRR models so they can run them. The list, or a bulletin board could also prevent wasted effort on duplication. It would also remove the MSTS dialogue from the lists specializing in PRR not computers. Any comments, off-list if you want? Fred Rea PS Anyone know how to start a list or a BB? ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 10:28:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] PRR right of way potentially threatened by highway project A recent trip to Indiana to take my sister-in-law back to school to pick up something yielded that the long-anticipated US119 widening project (there have been whiny signs in front yards for years) is apparently coming to fruition. Indeed, http://www.119south.com/ exists and indicates so. The reason this matters to me/us is that the Indiana Branch paralleled 119 on the west side of the highway from south of Black Lick most of the way to Homer City. According to their map, the section from Graceton north will become a bike trail, which is probable because I think they can actually put the extra lanes on the east side of the highway. >From there south, though, the allocation of structures along the road probably means it's going to be regraded and paved. There's not really a lot to see other than the grade, and in fact the area where the rail line paralleled the highway is part of a later phase of contruction than the interchange which is about to be built, but if there's something you want pictures of, you'd be well advised to get them this year. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 11:22:19 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Accurail H31b model? I saw this link on another list! http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/112-2702 It appears that Accurail is releasing an H31b!! Now if only someone would do the GLc and H25... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 11:45:21 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Accurail H31b Sorry folks, I hate to get you all excited and then let you down but, a quick look at the May 2001 announcements from Walthers indicates that this car will be release in AT&SF, Wabash, C&O, NKP, CB&Q, Virginian, Clinchfield, L&N, and UP. A 55-Ton Panel Side Twin Hopper will also be coming. So, in-Acurail strikes again...in all likelihood, this WILL NOT be the PRR H31b class...in fact isn't this the same car as the P2K? Well, maybe they will get the boards right . Sigh, Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 12:51:09 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Accurail H31b model? In a message dated 5/23/01 11:30:59 AM Central Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << It appears that Accurail is releasing an H31b!! >> Not to be a wet blanket,Bruce, but they are offering it in ATSF and Wabash (maybe others) , as well. I wonder how close to an H31b it will be. It is encouraging they used the prototype photo of the PRR hopper in the announcement, though. It would be fine with me if they modeled the H31b as a generic for other road names, ala Bachmann on passenger cars:-). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BNdave1@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 13:51:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR track & intlkng charts on ebay I saw some interesting PRR track charts, interlocking charts, air brake instruction books, and car & loco labor time standard books on ebay last night. Here are some of the ebay numbers if anybody is interested. 1147786612 P.R.R. Pittsburgh Region Track Charts 1147786617 P.R.R. Block Sta. Diags. - Philiadelphia Dist 1147786621 P.R.R. Block Sta. Diags. - Harrisburg Dist. 1147786630 P.R.R. - Locomotive & Car Air Brake Instrs. 1147786631 P.R.R. - Car Shop Labor Time Standards 1147786634 P.R.R. Motive Pwr. Dept. Labor Time Standards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 17:31:06 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] RE: Videos or 16mm of PA RR S-1 Friends, For all of you who took some time to help Tom in his quest for a class S1 photo here is his thanks. His message speaks volumes about the internet and what we all can do to assist a fellow enthusiast when we cooperate. My thanks to all of you as well. Al ================================ -----Original Message----- From: Tom & Pam Blinn [mailto:tblinn@home.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 11:31 AM To: Al Buchan Subject: RE: Videos or 16mm of PA RR S-1 Alan Thanks for your help. It is a terrific story. My son who works in advertising got a call from his art and creative department that they needed a picture of a Raymond Loewy train engine and he had until Friday to get it. He contacted me knowing that I liked trains. I had no idea where to find a streaming video of the engine or where to even look. After an Internet search on Loewy, I found that that it was a Pennsy engine and thought that there must be a Pennsy Historical society that I could contact. The web search took me to you, and it was your broadcast that got me what I was looking for. I am on the West coast and an SP enthusiast. I know little about the Pennsy, but when you sent out the email it turned out that one of my good friends, Ben Hom, is a member or associate with your group and had a video for me. I had no idea that he was a closet Pennsy fan but what do you expect in SP, UP, and ATSF country. It was 7 hours after I emailed you that I had the video in my hand. This says a lot for you organization and your willingness to help. I would like to express my thanks to you and your organization for being there and maintaining a network of loyal Pennsy followers. Tom Blinn President, San Leandro Historical Railway Society "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE: Videos or 16mm of PA RR S-1 Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 17:31:06 -0400 Friends, For all of you who took some time to help Tom in his quest for a class S1 photo here is his thanks. His message speaks volumes about the internet and what we all can do to assist a fellow enthusiast when we cooperate. My thanks to all of you as well. Al ================================ -----Original Message----- From: Tom & Pam Blinn [mailto:tblinn@home.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 11:31 AM To: Al Buchan Subject: RE: Videos or 16mm of PA RR S-1 Alan Thanks for your help. It is a terrific story. My son who works in advertising got a call from his art and creative department that they needed a picture of a Raymond Loewy train engine and he had until Friday to get it. He contacted me knowing that I liked trains. I had no idea where to find a streaming video of the engine or where to even look. After an Internet search on Loewy, I found that that it was a Pennsy engine and thought that there must be a Pennsy Historical society that I could contact. The web search took me to you, and it was your broadcast that got me what I was looking for. I am on the West coast and an SP enthusiast. I know little about the Pennsy, but when you sent out the email it turned out that one of my good friends, Ben Hom, is a member or associate with your group and had a video for me. I had no idea that he was a closet Pennsy fan but what do you expect in SP, UP, and ATSF country. It was 7 hours after I emailed you that I had the video in my hand. This says a lot for you organization and your willingness to help. I would like to express my thanks to you and your organization for being there and maintaining a network of loyal Pennsy followers. Tom Blinn President, San Leandro Historical Railway Society ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 20:48:55 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Fw: URLs for MSTS and other simulations From: Fred G Rea As a result of my postings earlier today we now have PRR-COS for those interested in simulating PRR operations on their computer. This site covers several simulations including: MSTS, TrainMaster and Signal Computer Consultants. The URL is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRR-COS Also, the following sites are relate to MSTS and include screen shots and discussions of the equipment needed to run MSTS. They are: http://communities.msn.com/TrainSimulatorFanSite http://microsoft.com/games/trainsim/ http://www.kuju.com/TrainWeb/trainindex.htm http://www.trainstation.cjb.net/ http://train-sim.com/ http://www.trainsimu.com/home/ These sites include links to each other and other sites of interest. With this I think we should use PRR-COS for future discussion of MSTS/PRR issues. See you there! Fred Rea ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:59:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Loco ID Lists, I have been asked to help identify the class's of the following locos. http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr110s.jpg http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr216s.jpg http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr252s.jpg I can find pics in books but no class is stated. Captions just say "six-coupled". Please advise me of class designation if known. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 09:59:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Loco ID Lists, I have been asked to help identify the class's of the following locos. http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr110s.jpg http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr216s.jpg http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr252s.jpg I can find pics in books but no class is stated. Captions just say "six-coupled". Please advise me of class designation if known. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 10:44:47 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Loco ID From: Jerry Britton On 5/24/01 9:59 AM, Gary Mittner (mittner@webtv.net) wrote: > I have been asked to help identify the class's of the following > locos. > > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr110s.jpg > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr216s.jpg > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr252s.jpg > > I can find pics in books but no class is stated. Captions just say > "six-coupled". Please advise me of class designation if known. Thanks, > Gary > Gary: Many of the early steam locos, including many acquired from acquired roads, were never assigned PRR locomotive classes but were just lumped in a class as "unclassified" (per Edson's rosters). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] (Tangent) GG1 License Plate Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:43:09 -0400 Listers, If the owner of NY plate GG1 4800 is on the list, please contact me. Thanks, Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 11:57:44 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] Loco ID Gary Mittner wrote: > Lists, > > I have been asked to help identify the class's of the following > locos. > > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr110s.jpg > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr216s.jpg > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr252s.jpg > > I can find pics in books but no class is stated. Captions just say > "six-coupled". Please advise me of class designation if known. Thanks, > Gary ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Gary- According to "Keystone Steam & Electric", all locomotives bore names prior to 1857. In that year the first numbers were applied. however, class designations did not start until 1868. They used the letters A thru H for the 1st 8 designs. # 110- classes first listed as D, then B. Original PRR engine. Built prior to 1857. # 216- class listed as B. Original PRR engine. Built 1861-63. # 252- class listed as B. Original PRR engine. Built 1861-63. In 1897 new classes were assigned with the 1st letter indicating wheel arrangement, and a number and suffix indicating modifications. For example, A1, A2, A2a, A3,A3a were 0-4-0's. B1, B2, B3, B3a, B4, B4a, B4b were all 0-6-0's, etc. Hope this is helpful. Regards, Eddie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:05:29 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] ***MP - Steam - #110 From: Jerry Britton On 5/24/01 11:52 AM, Bill Strassner (PRRSignals@adelphia.net) wrote: > Pix 110 and 110a are the L1, and 110s is the unknown thing. > There were five PRR steamers numbered 110. Two were "unclassified". My previous post alluded to the "unclassified" variety. The three others were L1s, F1a, and H1. This arrived at via the searchable Steam Roster on the "Keystone Crossings" web site. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:29:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: [PRR] ETTs and paste-in revisions I have a Williamsport Division ETT from 25 September 1932 (#15) which includes a "perforated paste-in slip" per certain general orders; it was supposed to be broken apart and pasted over 4 pages. The employee in question pasted it all over one page, and did not break it apart. Having no other documents so modified, was this "cheating" common? It does make scanning a pain. -D -yeah, I have a bunch of stuff I'll probably make available ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:46:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] ETTs and paste-in revisions From: Jerry Britton On 5/24/01 12:29 PM, Derrick J Brashear (shadow@dementia.org) wrote: > I have a Williamsport Division ETT from 25 September 1932 (#15) which > includes a "perforated paste-in slip" per certain general orders; it was > supposed to be broken apart and pasted over 4 pages. > > The employee in question pasted it all over one page, and did not break it > apart. > > Having no other documents so modified, was this "cheating" common? I don't think so. I have several dozen ETT's and those with the "updates" are all broken apart and pasted into their correct locations. Of special note, I have one ETT (1954 Philadelphia Division, I believe) that has so many updates it practically replaces the entire book. What is especially unusual is that the updates were never pasted in. They are in their original "large sheet" state, folded along tear lines, and carefully placed in the back of the book. The glue is still good and the whole thing looks like it was just printed yesterday! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] Westmorland Enginehouse open day pics Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 23:56:38 +0100 The N & D MRS held another open day (May 20th) for its HO layout Westmorland Enginehouse. The picture record has now been uploaded at: http://www.xclent.clara.net Click on the Westmorland Enginehouse button and go on from there. Lots of Pennsy 'super-power' steam including two S1s, T1s, Q2 and J1. More steam and also diesels in SR, SP and, for those who like bright colours, UP. Sunglasses not compulsory but recommended :-) Regards, John H. Wright, Washington, England. Web sites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and http://www.xclent.clara.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 06:18:10 -0400 Subject: [PRR] FW: A rant From: Jerry Britton On 5/24/01 4:03 PM, robert netzlof at (wb3iqe@rocketmail.com) wrote: > Being once again in a grumpy mood, and seeing that you > had the gall to imply that Our Researcher might have > been in error (oh, the shame of it), and on The > Official E-mail Group of Our Society at that, I tender > the following, having carefully looked for e-mail > group addresses in unexpected places... Point One: I did not imply that "Our Researcher" (who, Bill Strassner?) was wrong. I amended his response with two additional correct instances of steam locomotives numbered 110. 2. PRR@yahoo is NOT the Society's "Official E-mail Group". Sure, there are those who laid that claim early on, but the Society later made a statement that it was not the case. > > On 5/24/01 11:52 AM, Bill Strassner (PRRSignals@a...) > wrote: >> Pix 110 and 110a are the L1, and 110s is the unknown>>> thing. > > And Jerry Britton wrote: > >> There were five PRR steamers numbered 110. > > Not possible. See above, where Our Researcher, using > Approved Sources, has found three (3). "Our researcher" looked at a photo of an 0-6-0 and responded that it was an L1s. Interesting. What is the list of "Approved Sources"? > >> Two were "unclassified". > > Then why spread Confusion and Speculation? If you > don't know the classes, just say so. The history of > Our Railroad is much too important to let Confusion > and Speculation into the picture. "Our Railroad". It ain't yours. In fact, it's dead. Get over it. > >> My previous post alluded to the "unclassified" >> variety. > > More College Boy Fancy Talk to cover up that you don't > know. "Alluded" Hahaha. Yeah, well this "College Boy" did learn how to read. And I quoted my source...Edson. Are you discrediting Edson? You may of you like. > >> The three others were L1s, F1a, and H1. > > As if anyone who didn't work for Our Railroad could > know. > >> This arrived at via the searchable Steam Roster on >> the "Keystone Crossings" web site. > > Well, if Some People are going to depend on so-called > Web Sites instead of doing Serious Research using > Approved Sources, you can see the sort of Unreliable > Results you can expect. Again, "Approved Sources"? The basis for the searchable roster on "Keystone Crossings" -- which serves to make it easy FOR ALL to have easy access to this data -- is Edson. Do you have the Edson material at hand? I now do. Sorry I didn't earlier, but I never know which 10 tons of material to have with me. Edson, page 6, acquired 8/1854 from Harrisburg Portsmouth Mount Joy & Lancaster, road number 110, name "Sullivan", 106 type 4-4-0, Baldwin, scrapped 5/75. Edson, page 12, acquired 12/1863 from Allegheny Portage, road number 110, type 0-6-0ST, Baldwin, scrapped 1/76. Did you, from your perch atop "Our Railroad" provide this kind of information? Considering the photo was of an 0-6-0, this "College Boy" reasons that the above is the locomotive in question. > > I didn't think at first that I should let this > through, because there is plenty of Confusion and > Speculation on Certain Other Groups and We don't need > that on Our Group. But then I thought, we can all use > a good chuckle, and it might help the Newer Members > understand how important it is to use only Approved > Sources, recommended by Respected Researchers, such as > the Volunteer Experts who give their Time and Talent > to keep Our Group Pure and Clean. Mr. Netzlof: I submit that the "good chuckle" is on you, not myself, and that you are far from a "Respected Researcher". Your arrogance is not welcome and, if the Society endorses this attitude towards its fellow members, then I think I am in the wrong Society. P.S. I reiterate that I have no (current) beef with Mr. Strassner and my original response to Gary Mittner's query (which was cross posted to both PRR-Talk and PRR-FAX and responded to likewise) was to amend to Mr. Strassner's information. However, knowing the way things are in the "Good Ole Boys club", I imagine this will be my last post to PRR-FAX! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 06:30:05 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: Congo and Senator consist From: Jerry Britton On 5/23/01 3:24 PM, Geoffrey Van Dooren at (geoff_vandooren@yahoo.com) wrote: > the numbers for the Senators are 176 and 177. > The Congo 124, 131, 152, 153 and maybe 197. The consist info for the above was asked for privately, but the answer is worth posting publicly. The source is the April 1954 "Makeup of Trains" book issued by the New York Division. SENATOR Train 176, Daily, Dep. Washington noon; Arr NYC 3:45 p.m. P85H Coach-Lounge, Wash-New Haven, 4 cars MTW, 2 cars ThF, 3 cars SaSu P85H Coach-Lounge, Wash-Boston, 2 cars MTW, 4 cars ThF, 3 cars SaSu Coffee Shop Tavern, Wash-Boston, 1 car P85H Coach-Lounge, Wash-Boston, 2 cars Diner, Wash-Boston, 1 car PL29-1DR, Wash-Boston, 1 car except Sa and Nov. 25 PL29-1DR, Wash-Boston, 2 cars PL-OBS-Bar-Lounge, Wash-Boston, 1 car Train #177, Daily, Dep. NYC 3:20 p.m.; Arr. Washington 7:15 p.m. MS60, New Haven-New York, 1 car MS60 (X), New Haven-Wash, 1 car ex F P70FBR, New York-Wash, 2 cars FSu only P85H Coach-Lounge, New Haven-Wash, 3 cars MSu, 4 cars TWTh, 2 cars FSa P85H Coach-Lounge, Boston-Wash, 3 cars MSu, 2 cars TWTh, 4 cars FSa Coffee Shop Tavern, Boston-Wash, 1 car P85H Coach-Lounge, Boson-Wash, 2 cars D85AD Diner, Boston-Wash, 1 car PL29-1DR Boston-Wash, 11 car ex Sa and Nov. 25 PL29-1DR, Boston-Wash, 2 cars PL-OBS-Bar-Lounge-14 chairs, 25 seats, telephone, Boston-Wash, 1 car Stay tuned for the CONGO consists... --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 06:49:07 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Set Up Running Hi All, I have just started chapter 4 of the book "Set Up Running" I would recommend it more then when I first bought it. It is one of the few books that are not loaded with pictures that I have faithfully read. Now my questions: In The first few chapters my perception of getting a train over the road appeared to be on a very "tower to tower" basis for getting block clearance. Would this be true or was it because of the branch line where most of the book has taken place far? I know that at that time radios were not in use yet. Thank You Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Set Up Running Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 06:49:07 -0400 Hi All, I have just started chapter 4 of the book "Set Up Running" I would recommend it more then when I first bought it. It is one of the few books that are not loaded with pictures that I have faithfully read. Now my questions: In The first few chapters my perception of getting a train over the road appeared to be on a very "tower to tower" basis for getting block clearance. Would this be true or was it because of the branch line where most of the book has taken place far? I know that at that time radios were not in use yet. Thank You Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 08:07:33 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] [PM-list] STOLEN BRASS (fwd) Friends, This message was posted to another list, and I recieved Dan's permission to repost here. He would obviously appreciate any help possible in identify the individual(s) involved. Bruce ---------- Forwarded message ---------- -----Original Message----- From: ALTOONAWKS@aol.com Subject: STOLEN BRASS >FELLOW BRASS COLLECTORS/DEALERS, > > ON MAY 4, 2001, I ATTENDED THE PENNSYLVANIA R.R. HISTORICAL SOCIETY MEETING >IN HARRISBURG, PA. AS I WAS PACKING UP MY TABLE, I DISCOVERED THAT 5 OF MY >BRASS LOCOS WERE STOLEN. THEY ARE THE FOLLOWING : > >1. RAILWORKS P.R.R. L-1s 2-8-2 #520 FACTORY PAINTED >2. RAILWORKS P.R.R. L-1s 2-8-2 #1389 FACTORY PAINTED >3. SUNSET N&W K-3 4-8-2 CUSTOM PAINTED BY MYSELF >4. SUNSET W&LE J-1 4-8-2 CUSTOM PAINTED N.K.P. BY MYSELF >5. CUSTOM BRASS C&O L-2 4-6-4 "BAKER" CUSTOM PAINTED BY MYSELF > >I WOULD LIKE TO GET THEM BACK,NATURALLY, BUT WHAT IS MORE IMPORTANT TO ME IS >TO FIND OUT WHO STOLE THEM. IF YOU HAVE ANY INFORMATION, IF SOMEONE COMES UP >TO YOU AND WANTS TO SELL YOU A FEW OF THESE, PLEASE LET ME KNOW. >THEY WOULD HAVE HAD TO BEEN REGISTERED FOR THE CONVENTION, SO IF THE NAME YOU >GIVE ME, MATCHS THE REGISTRY, I'LL BE IN LUCK. THERE IS NOTHING WORSE THAN A >THIEF WHEN IT COMES TO ATTENDING FLEA MARKETS/CONVENTIONS, SO BY HELPING ME, >WE ARE ALL HELPING EACH OTHER OUT > >DAN ADAIR/ALTOONA WORKS >892 WINDBOURNE CT. >GAHANNA. OHIO 43230 >(614) 471-7499 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] [PM-list] STOLEN BRASS (fwd) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 09:29:03 -0400 They may not of had to be registered for the convention since there was no one stopping people without badges from entering the sales room. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. [mailto:smithbf@mail.auburn.edu] Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 9:08 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] [PM-list] STOLEN BRASS (fwd) Friends, This message was posted to another list, and I recieved Dan's permission to repost here. He would obviously appreciate any help possible in identify the individual(s) involved. Bruce ---------- Forwarded message ---------- -----Original Message----- From: ALTOONAWKS@aol.com Subject: STOLEN BRASS >FELLOW BRASS COLLECTORS/DEALERS, > > ON MAY 4, 2001, I ATTENDED THE PENNSYLVANIA R.R. HISTORICAL SOCIETY MEETING >IN HARRISBURG, PA. AS I WAS PACKING UP MY TABLE, I DISCOVERED THAT 5 OF MY >BRASS LOCOS WERE STOLEN. THEY ARE THE FOLLOWING : > >1. RAILWORKS P.R.R. L-1s 2-8-2 #520 FACTORY PAINTED >2. RAILWORKS P.R.R. L-1s 2-8-2 #1389 FACTORY PAINTED >3. SUNSET N&W K-3 4-8-2 CUSTOM PAINTED BY MYSELF >4. SUNSET W&LE J-1 4-8-2 CUSTOM PAINTED N.K.P. BY MYSELF >5. CUSTOM BRASS C&O L-2 4-6-4 "BAKER" CUSTOM PAINTED BY MYSELF > >I WOULD LIKE TO GET THEM BACK,NATURALLY, BUT WHAT IS MORE IMPORTANT TO ME IS >TO FIND OUT WHO STOLE THEM. IF YOU HAVE ANY INFORMATION, IF SOMEONE COMES UP >TO YOU AND WANTS TO SELL YOU A FEW OF THESE, PLEASE LET ME KNOW. >THEY WOULD HAVE HAD TO BEEN REGISTERED FOR THE CONVENTION, SO IF THE NAME YOU >GIVE ME, MATCHS THE REGISTRY, I'LL BE IN LUCK. THERE IS NOTHING WORSE THAN A >THIEF WHEN IT COMES TO ATTENDING FLEA MARKETS/CONVENTIONS, SO BY HELPING ME, >WE ARE ALL HELPING EACH OTHER OUT > >DAN ADAIR/ALTOONA WORKS >892 WINDBOURNE CT. >GAHANNA. OHIO 43230 >(614) 471-7499 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 09:45:00 -0400 Subject: PRRT&HS Conventions (was Re: [PRR] [PM-list] STOLEN BRASS) From: Jerry Britton I'm CC'ing my response to Society president Dick Adams since "National" is sponsoring the 2002 convention... On 5/25/01 9:29 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > They may not of had to be registered for the convention since there was no > one stopping people without badges from entering the sales room. > Agreed. As a vendor, there may be some benefit to allowing anybody in...though I imagine the extra sales would not be worth the decrease in security. Convention attendees, as a general rule, tend to be very good people. In three years as a vendor I have not had any losses (that I know of). The Pittsburgh Chapter did an excellent job with this convention...but as a suggestion for future conventions: 1. Convention badges should include the person's membership number. Though the Society would assume no liability, it would provide a conduit for information if a vendor needed to contact a customer OR it might allow the ID'ing of a thief, in the case at hand. 2. Vendor badges should be a different color. There are times when only vendors are supposed to be in the vendor room. It wasn't as much of a problem this year as in years past, but it is a good idea. I think this was done at one of the more recent conventions. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 10:43:53 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Listmaster Survey of AOL Subscribers From: Jerry Britton Please respond to "listmaster@dsop.com" ONLY if you are an America Online subscriber of "PRR-Talk", "Conrail-Talk", "Reading-Talk", or one of the smaller DSOP.COM lists... 1. Is your use of the DSOP.COM lists impaired by the MIME/HTML e-mail format of America Online's software? 2. Have you tried AOL's "AOL Anywhere" web-based e-mail form to send posts to the lists? 3. If the above is not a suitable workaround for you, would a web-based interface for the DSOP.COM listserver be suitable? I am trying to accommodate every potential user, while maintaining security (vs. viral risk), unwanted HTML in messages, and unwanted attachments. Thank you in advance for taking the time to respond. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmaster ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 11:37:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Set Up Running and Towers In a message dated 5/25/2001 3:58:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time, billlane@snip.net writes: << I have just started chapter 4 of the book "Set Up Running" I would recommend it more then when I first bought it. It is one of the few books that are not loaded with pictures that I have faithfully read. Now my questions: In The first few chapters my perception of getting a train over the road appeared to be on a very "tower to tower" basis for getting block clearance. Would this be true or was it because of the branch line where most of the book has taken place far? I know that at that time radios were not in use yet. >> I read a good portion of this book on a business trip this week. Wow! I was already an Elmira branch fan, but this gives me so many ideas for layouts! Wow! Imagine a layout centered on Ralston with the mine, tannery, connections with the S&NY and the Shay-powered lumber line, heavy Pennsy traffic in both directions. Wow! With books on each of the lines into Ralston available, it almost is a must to model!!!! Bill, I think in answer to your question about towers, that what was described was typical in that era and long after. A less busy line would have used the operators at the various depots to issue orders allowing trains to proceed between manned, named points where they could receive further orders. The relatively sparse population and the heavier traffic in central Penna meant more use of towers as depots were not always where they were needed. (In contrast to Ohio, for example, where some roads had a depot every couple miles.) The tower by contrast was a distributed, manually controlled equivalent of the later CTC. The goal as I understand it was to achieve maximum traffic density by providing control of each block and allowing trains to enter it as soon as it was safe to do so, under the overall oversight of the dispatcher. This was done by a combination of signal and train order. Decisions of the kind made in later years at a central CTC board were made partially by the dispaticher and partially by the local tower operator. There was a great study of towers in TRAINS about 4 or 5 years ago which suggests this continued to be the theme as long as towers lasted. Anybody able to expand on this? Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Set Up Running and Towers Date: Fri, 25 May 101 11:55:48 -0400 (EDT) It's difficult to abridge the original question. Forgive me for leaving it in wholesale. billlane@snip.net writes: > > I have just started chapter 4 of the book "Set Up Running" I would > > recommend it more then when I first bought it. It is one of the few > > books that are not loaded with pictures that I have faithfully read. > > > > Now my questions: In The first few chapters my perception of getting a train > > over the road appeared to be on a very "tower to tower" basis for getting > > block clearance. Would this be true or was it because of the branch line > > where most of the book has taken place far? I know that at that time radios > > were not in use yet. LeeRainey@aol.com scribit: > Bill, I think in answer to your question about towers, that what was > described was typical in that era and long after. > A less busy line would have used the operators at the various depots to issue > orders allowing trains to proceed between manned, named points where they > could receive further orders. The relatively sparse population and the > heavier traffic in central Penna meant more use of towers as depots were not > always where they were needed. (In contrast to Ohio, for example, where some > roads had a depot every couple miles.) I will reply only generally. A specific reply would require having the Employe Time-Table from the era in question in hand -- which I do not. "Tower to tower" operation, as you say, is typical of manual block lines. Smaller lines tended to be manual block, as they did not warrant the expense incurred in installing what one could call "full signal systems". Manual block can be run on paper only or with signals. PRR was rather fond, more fond than most RRs I'd say, of the signalled variety. Even when run with paper, the block station often had a semaphore (signal) indicating the presence of absence of train orders. The rules of the RR may provide, however, for other methods, such as flags, hand signals, etc. You can get an idea of how this kind of territory is operated by reading the PRR rules that are in the 300 number series. See my site at http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Bor1956/ Note that the fact that 300-series rules are in effect does NOT mean that other rules are not in effect. Most of the rules numbered < 200 would still be in effect. Hope this helps. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] FW: A rant Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 13:48:37 -0400 Jerry and the list, While I did not read the original post but knowing the history of the 2 Groups, I find this post by Mr. Netzlof very interesting. To me his use of capitals (Our Researcher, Approved Sources, Our Railroad) and the phrase "Our Group Pure and Clean" would make you believe that he is poking fun at the high and mightiness of "Our Group" and not PRR-Talk. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 6:18 AM To: PRR-Talk; prr@yahoo.com Subject: [PRR] FW: A rant On 5/24/01 4:03 PM, robert netzlof at (wb3iqe@rocketmail.com) wrote: > Being once again in a grumpy mood, and seeing that you > had the gall to imply that Our Researcher might have > been in error (oh, the shame of it), and on The > Official E-mail Group of Our Society at that, I tender > the following, having carefully looked for e-mail > group addresses in unexpected places... Point One: I did not imply that "Our Researcher" (who, Bill Strassner?) was wrong. I amended his response with two additional correct instances of steam locomotives numbered 110. 2. PRR@yahoo is NOT the Society's "Official E-mail Group". Sure, there are those who laid that claim early on, but the Society later made a statement that it was not the case. > > On 5/24/01 11:52 AM, Bill Strassner (PRRSignals@a...) > wrote: >> Pix 110 and 110a are the L1, and 110s is the unknown>>> thing. > > And Jerry Britton wrote: > >> There were five PRR steamers numbered 110. > > Not possible. See above, where Our Researcher, using > Approved Sources, has found three (3). "Our researcher" looked at a photo of an 0-6-0 and responded that it was an L1s. Interesting. What is the list of "Approved Sources"? > >> Two were "unclassified". > > Then why spread Confusion and Speculation? If you > don't know the classes, just say so. The history of > Our Railroad is much too important to let Confusion > and Speculation into the picture. "Our Railroad". It ain't yours. In fact, it's dead. Get over it. > >> My previous post alluded to the "unclassified" >> variety. > > More College Boy Fancy Talk to cover up that you don't > know. "Alluded" Hahaha. Yeah, well this "College Boy" did learn how to read. And I quoted my source...Edson. Are you discrediting Edson? You may of you like. > >> The three others were L1s, F1a, and H1. > > As if anyone who didn't work for Our Railroad could > know. > >> This arrived at via the searchable Steam Roster on >> the "Keystone Crossings" web site. > > Well, if Some People are going to depend on so-called > Web Sites instead of doing Serious Research using > Approved Sources, you can see the sort of Unreliable > Results you can expect. Again, "Approved Sources"? The basis for the searchable roster on "Keystone Crossings" -- which serves to make it easy FOR ALL to have easy access to this data -- is Edson. Do you have the Edson material at hand? I now do. Sorry I didn't earlier, but I never know which 10 tons of material to have with me. Edson, page 6, acquired 8/1854 from Harrisburg Portsmouth Mount Joy & Lancaster, road number 110, name "Sullivan", 106 type 4-4-0, Baldwin, scrapped 5/75. Edson, page 12, acquired 12/1863 from Allegheny Portage, road number 110, type 0-6-0ST, Baldwin, scrapped 1/76. Did you, from your perch atop "Our Railroad" provide this kind of information? Considering the photo was of an 0-6-0, this "College Boy" reasons that the above is the locomotive in question. > > I didn't think at first that I should let this > through, because there is plenty of Confusion and > Speculation on Certain Other Groups and We don't need > that on Our Group. But then I thought, we can all use > a good chuckle, and it might help the Newer Members > understand how important it is to use only Approved > Sources, recommended by Respected Researchers, such as > the Volunteer Experts who give their Time and Talent > to keep Our Group Pure and Clean. Mr. Netzlof: I submit that the "good chuckle" is on you, not myself, and that you are far from a "Respected Researcher". Your arrogance is not welcome and, if the Society endorses this attitude towards its fellow members, then I think I am in the wrong Society. P.S. I reiterate that I have no (current) beef with Mr. Strassner and my original response to Gary Mittner's query (which was cross posted to both PRR-Talk and PRR-FAX and responded to likewise) was to amend to Mr. Strassner's information. However, knowing the way things are in the "Good Ole Boys club", I imagine this will be my last post to PRR-FAX! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:01:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: A rant From: Jerry Britton On 5/25/01 1:48 PM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > While I did not read the original post but knowing the history of the 2 > Groups, I find this post by Mr. Netzlof very interesting. > > To me his use of capitals (Our Researcher, Approved Sources, Our Railroad) > and the phrase "Our Group Pure and Clean" would make you believe that he is > poking fun at the high and mightiness of "Our Group" and not PRR-Talk. > Whoah!!! Before this gets out of hand, as listmaster, I need to point out that nowhere in any of the thread of posts were any attacks made on "PRR-Talk"...so please, let's not start a list vs. list war!!! In summary, 1. Gary Mittner provided a URL of an 0-6-0 numbered 110 and asked if anyone knew what class it was. The post was made to multiple lists, including PRR-Talk and PRR-FAX. 2. Bill Strassner responded on PRR-FAX that there were only three locomotives numbered 110 and that the loco in question was an L1s. (This was later retracted when it was pointed out that an L1s was not an 0-6-0.) 3. I responded to both lists indicating that there were five, not three locos numbered 110, but that the other two were early locos that were "unclassified". 4. The fun began here when I "corrected" Bill Strassner and the notation of an "unclassified" locomotive was deemed unacceptable. 5. I later expanded on my response, providing acquisition year, builder data, disposition data, etc., and included page and source of the information. At no time was PRR-Talk or PRR-FAX attacked. What was attacked was any response which conflicted with the Official Sources of Our Researcher of Our Railroad by a third party. This was a person-person thing. So please, don't start building Trojan Bunnies!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmaster ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:16:41 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Tech Info on Yahoo Lists From: Jerry Britton I know many of the subscribers on my lists are also subscribed to Yahoo-based lists. I participate in many myself -- PRR_N_scale, Digitrax, PRRT&HS eNews, etc. Many have wondered why Yahoo has been so slow (at times) at getting mail out. There are times when I cross-post to one of my lists and one of Yahoo's and the Yahoo list sometimes takes 1+ hours to show up. It has been reported on the Digitrax list that this is because Yahoo has been subject to the rolling blackouts in California. Unfortunately, their UPS systems have not been able to keep up with the down time, so the systems crash before the power comes back. To make matters worse, when they reboot, their databases are corrupt and they need to restore from backups...backups that were made hours earlier or even the day before. Not only are user settings lost, but also messages being distributed (some get them, some don't), and some messages never get into the permanent archives! Supposedly Yahoo is securing additional UPS capacity to keep the juice on longer. However, the problem in California is likely not going to resolve itself during the heat of summer...so prepare for this to continue. At the same time, Yahoo is in serious financial trouble. Their stock has fallen 91% in just over a year. Potential suitors (AOL-Time Warner and Disney) have broken off acquisition talks. [Source CNNfn.] So, the long term question is, "will there even be a Yahoo a year from now?" ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmaster ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:17:13 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] FW: A rant The last time someone refered to "Our Group Pure and Clean" it seems to me that we had a world war ,ethnic cleansing, and concentration camps with steam powered internee trains! "Chany, Christopher" wrote: > > Jerry and the list, > > While I did not read the original post but knowing the history of the 2 > Groups, I find this post by Mr. Netzlof very interesting. > > To me his use of capitals (Our Researcher, Approved Sources, Our Railroad) > and the phrase "Our Group Pure and Clean" would make you believe that he is > poking fun at the high and mightiness of "Our Group" and not PRR-Talk. > > Chris Chany > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 6:18 AM > To: PRR-Talk; prr@yahoo.com > Subject: [PRR] FW: A rant > > On 5/24/01 4:03 PM, robert netzlof at (wb3iqe@rocketmail.com) wrote: > > > Being once again in a grumpy mood, and seeing that you > > had the gall to imply that Our Researcher might have > > been in error (oh, the shame of it), and on The > > Official E-mail Group of Our Society at that, I tender > > the following, having carefully looked for e-mail > > group addresses in unexpected places... > > Point One: I did not imply that "Our Researcher" (who, Bill Strassner?) > was wrong. I amended his response with two additional correct instances of > steam locomotives numbered 110. > > 2. PRR@yahoo is NOT the Society's "Official E-mail Group". Sure, there > are those who laid that claim early on, but the Society later made a > statement that it was not the case. > > > > On 5/24/01 11:52 AM, Bill Strassner (PRRSignals@a...) > > wrote: > >> Pix 110 and 110a are the L1, and 110s is the unknown>>> thing. > > > > And Jerry Britton wrote: > > > >> There were five PRR steamers numbered 110. > > > > Not possible. See above, where Our Researcher, using > > Approved Sources, has found three (3). > > "Our researcher" looked at a photo of an 0-6-0 and responded that it was > an L1s. Interesting. What is the list of "Approved Sources"? > > > >> Two were "unclassified". > > > > Then why spread Confusion and Speculation? If you > > don't know the classes, just say so. The history of > > Our Railroad is much too important to let Confusion > > and Speculation into the picture. > > "Our Railroad". It ain't yours. In fact, it's dead. Get over it. > > > >> My previous post alluded to the "unclassified" > >> variety. > > > > More College Boy Fancy Talk to cover up that you don't > > know. "Alluded" Hahaha. > > Yeah, well this "College Boy" did learn how to read. And I quoted my > source...Edson. Are you discrediting Edson? You may of you like. > > > >> The three others were L1s, F1a, and H1. > > > > As if anyone who didn't work for Our Railroad could > > know. > > > >> This arrived at via the searchable Steam Roster on > >> the "Keystone Crossings" web site. > > > > Well, if Some People are going to depend on so-called > > Web Sites instead of doing Serious Research using > > Approved Sources, you can see the sort of Unreliable > > Results you can expect. > > Again, "Approved Sources"? The basis for the searchable roster on > "Keystone Crossings" -- which serves to make it easy FOR ALL to have easy > access to this data -- is Edson. Do you have the Edson material at hand? > > I now do. Sorry I didn't earlier, but I never know which 10 tons of > material to have with me. > > Edson, page 6, acquired 8/1854 from Harrisburg Portsmouth Mount Joy & > Lancaster, road number 110, name "Sullivan", 106 type 4-4-0, Baldwin, > scrapped 5/75. > > Edson, page 12, acquired 12/1863 from Allegheny Portage, road number 110, > type 0-6-0ST, Baldwin, scrapped 1/76. > > Did you, from your perch atop "Our Railroad" provide this kind of > information? > > Considering the photo was of an 0-6-0, this "College Boy" reasons that > the above is the locomotive in question. > > > > I didn't think at first that I should let this > > through, because there is plenty of Confusion and > > Speculation on Certain Other Groups and We don't need > > that on Our Group. But then I thought, we can all use > > a good chuckle, and it might help the Newer Members > > understand how important it is to use only Approved > > Sources, recommended by Respected Researchers, such as > > the Volunteer Experts who give their Time and Talent > > to keep Our Group Pure and Clean. > > Mr. Netzlof: I submit that the "good chuckle" is on you, not myself, and > that you are far from a "Respected Researcher". Your arrogance is not > welcome and, if the Society endorses this attitude towards its fellow > members, then I think I am in the wrong Society. > > P.S. I reiterate that I have no (current) beef with Mr. Strassner and my > original response to Gary Mittner's query (which was cross posted to both > PRR-Talk and PRR-FAX and responded to likewise) was to amend to Mr. > Strassner's information. However, knowing the way things are in the "Good > Ole Boys club", I imagine this will be my last post to PRR-FAX! > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS > > "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of > Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana > products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", > the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- > Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are > providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit > our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. > ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:58:19 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Ballasting and equipment on PRR SD7's vs SD9's 1. Earlier, I mentioned a pipe seen in pics of PRR SD7 (and SD9) units - a loop of pipe on the fireman's side that rises from the back of the fuel tank almost to handrail level, and then returns. In a message dated 5/23/01 9:41:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, SIXAXLE@AOL.COM writes: << The pipe you are talking about is the fuel tank vent and flash arrestor. 2. Also there is alot of myth about being specially "Ballasted" for work on the hill...this is false...the 7's and 9's were approximatly the same weight.>> Actually, I wonder if both these statements are TRUE. Fact -- they ARE almost the same weight. I don't have a Pennsy 109-L (Classification and Description of Locomotives and Tenders) to confirm this, but SD9's are shown in both Pennsy Power II and in Penn Central BiAnnual as being 356,000 pounds. The SD7's are shown in both as 360,000 pounds (not 390,000# as I once cited in error). Fact -- the two SD7's replaced three specially-equipped H10's; normal H10 driver axle loadings were 56000, 57000, 60000, and 50000# (ref PRR No. 109-J, dated May 1948). Thus, the ability of the Hill's aged track and switchwork to carry 60000 pounds an axle had already been proven, and the SD7 really didn't push this any farther. Fact -- In mentions of the two SD7's, you hear and even read the "specially ballasted" phrase over and over again. Bob Yanosey's Penn Central power mentions it (latest published mention I know of). An email I got this morning mentions it: <> Fact -- my early X2200Souths were borrowed long ago and never returned. So I can't fall back on Don and Dan Dover, who being Cincinnatians probably had a good grasp of this question. But my memory tells me that when the SD7 came out, many/most of them were built light; the six-wheel trucks were to baby flimsy branch line rails and bridges, and a small fuel tank was available to save weight. It's just possible that all the railfan fuss is about the Pennsy's SD7 order, which was ballasted right up to 60,000 pounds per axle. Like the man once said, the final adjustment is how much concrete they pour into the frame. Thus, it may be that, when the SD7's appeared, the ballasting to 360,000 pounds was a bold move for a "switcher", thus all the fuss. By the time the SD9's showed up, road engines with 60,000 pounds per axle were everywhere, and even switchers (SW7, SW9) were ballasted that heavy (per axle). 3. << The only special equipment installed was the rail washer system and Gardner-Denver six cylinder high output air compressors instead of the normal three cylinder WBO model. E.B. Levin >> The special instructions in the ETT (and in the Pennsy's book of rules on braking with its sections on Madison Hill and other extreme PRR grades) specifies in part: only ES-15A type Diesel engine, equipped with operative dynamic brake, pressure maintaining feature, and rail washing device, will be used to handle trains between derail... and Bridge 44.14 (Main Street, Madison). The engine must be operated at the south end of the train... This goes on for a terrifying page and a half, with frequent reference to the five Madison Hill pages of Brake and Train Air Signal Instructions No. 99-D-1, which may reveal additional air tanks/reservoir capacity on these units. Trains were operated at 110 pounds airline pressure -- higher than normal passenger, and 'way higher than normal freight pressures. There's no question that the H10s's (and earlier H6sb's) on Madison Hill had extra brake reservoirs; see Richard Jacobs' article in the Keystone some time back. Of course, without PRR or EMD documentation in hand, this is only a possibility on the SD7's. I also wonder if the equipment has been changed much since on the two SD7's; it would be interesting to look them over. As Chris Carter says, "The truth is out there somewhere" Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. To unsubscribe, simply send a blank email to = PRR-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:58:19 EDT Subject: [PRR] Ballasting and equipment on PRR SD7's vs SD9's 1. Earlier, I mentioned a pipe seen in pics of PRR SD7 (and SD9) units - a loop of pipe on the fireman's side that rises from the back of the fuel tank almost to handrail level, and then returns. In a message dated 5/23/01 9:41:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, SIXAXLE@AOL.COM writes: << The pipe you are talking about is the fuel tank vent and flash arrestor. 2. Also there is alot of myth about being specially "Ballasted" for work on the hill...this is false...the 7's and 9's were approximatly the same weight.>> Actually, I wonder if both these statements are TRUE. Fact -- they ARE almost the same weight. I don't have a Pennsy 109-L (Classification and Description of Locomotives and Tenders) to confirm this, but SD9's are shown in both Pennsy Power II and in Penn Central BiAnnual as being 356,000 pounds. The SD7's are shown in both as 360,000 pounds (not 390,000# as I once cited in error). Fact -- the two SD7's replaced three specially-equipped H10's; normal H10 driver axle loadings were 56000, 57000, 60000, and 50000# (ref PRR No. 109-J, dated May 1948). Thus, the ability of the Hill's aged track and switchwork to carry 60000 pounds an axle had already been proven, and the SD7 really didn't push this any farther. Fact -- In mentions of the two SD7's, you hear and even read the "specially ballasted" phrase over and over again. Bob Yanosey's Penn Central power mentions it (latest published mention I know of). An email I got this morning mentions it: <> Fact -- my early X2200Souths were borrowed long ago and never returned. So I can't fall back on Don and Dan Dover, who being Cincinnatians probably had a good grasp of this question. But my memory tells me that when the SD7 came out, many/most of them were built light; the six-wheel trucks were to baby flimsy branch line rails and bridges, and a small fuel tank was available to save weight. It's just possible that all the railfan fuss is about the Pennsy's SD7 order, which was ballasted right up to 60,000 pounds per axle. Like the man once said, the final adjustment is how much concrete they pour into the frame. Thus, it may be that, when the SD7's appeared, the ballasting to 360,000 pounds was a bold move for a "switcher", thus all the fuss. By the time the SD9's showed up, road engines with 60,000 pounds per axle were everywhere, and even switchers (SW7, SW9) were ballasted that heavy (per axle). 3. << The only special equipment installed was the rail washer system and Gardner-Denver six cylinder high output air compressors instead of the normal three cylinder WBO model. E.B. Levin >> The special instructions in the ETT (and in the Pennsy's book of rules on braking with its sections on Madison Hill and other extreme PRR grades) specifies in part: only ES-15A type Diesel engine, equipped with operative dynamic brake, pressure maintaining feature, and rail washing device, will be used to handle trains between derail... and Bridge 44.14 (Main Street, Madison). The engine must be operated at the south end of the train... This goes on for a terrifying page and a half, with frequent reference to the five Madison Hill pages of Brake and Train Air Signal Instructions No. 99-D-1, which may reveal additional air tanks/reservoir capacity on these units. Trains were operated at 110 pounds airline pressure -- higher than normal passenger, and 'way higher than normal freight pressures. There's no question that the H10s's (and earlier H6sb's) on Madison Hill had extra brake reservoirs; see Richard Jacobs' article in the Keystone some time back. Of course, without PRR or EMD documentation in hand, this is only a possibility on the SD7's. I also wonder if the equipment has been changed much since on the two SD7's; it would be interesting to look them over. As Chris Carter says, "The truth is out there somewhere" Rick Tipton Louisville KY Remembering the Pennsylvania Railroad and especially PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:17:39 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Ballasting and equipment on PRR SD7's vs SD9's In a message dated 5/25/01 3:09:05 PM Central Daylight Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << I never heard the crews call the SDs "cadillacs". >> Someone else may have mentioned this, but I vaguely recall that SP commuter SD's or Trainmasters were nicknamed this, which may be where the thought came from. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Ballasting and equipment on PRR SD7's vs SD9's Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 16:27:47 -0400 Gentlemen: Were the EMD E-units called "cadillacs" as well? Not necessarily on the Pennsy but on other railroads? Ted Andrews -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com] Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 3:18 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Ballasting and equipment on PRR SD7's vs SD9's In a message dated 5/25/01 3:09:05 PM Central Daylight Time, RickTipton@aol.com writes: << I never heard the crews call the SDs "cadillacs". >> Someone else may have mentioned this, but I vaguely recall that SP commuter SD's or Trainmasters were nicknamed this, which may be where the thought came from. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Ballasting and equipment on PRR SD7's vs SD9's Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 15:32:11 -0700 Bob Zoeller wrote: Someone else may have mentioned this, but I vaguely recall that SP commuter SD's or Trainmasters were nicknamed this, which may be where the thought came from. It was indeed a nickname bestowed on the SD7's by Espee crews for the locomotives' superior riding and operational qualities. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] FW: A rant (a.k.a. Motive Power Information) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 19:09:47 -0400 The only official primary sources for determining "the correct" information on PRR motive power would be the actual PRR motive power records such as Locomotive Historical Records, M.P.229 Assignments of Locomotives, Circulars # 109 - Classification & Description of Locomotives, M.P.11 Inventories by class and mechanical department inter-office correspondence. Unfortunately these documents are not available to most people. Folks like Edson, Pennypacker, Staufer and Hirsimacki have spent a lot of time putting together books and articles on PRR motive power and deserve credit for their efforts. Without their forays into putting out the word the story of PRR motive power would be a lot less. However, not to discredit their efforts, these are not primary sources of information, only secondary, and frankly contain errors here and there some more so than others. Let the reader beware. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR Loco ID Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 20:36:10 -0400 Gary, et al., The word I got from a person whom I consider one of the most knowledgeable about PRR steam is below. Al ----------------- These are official photos of very early engines, built prior to the PRR having instituted any classification system. They were technically known as "odd shifting". These views were made in the 1869-1871 time frame. The first classification system began in 1868. The three engines in question never received standard classes. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE:[PRR] Set Up Running and Towers Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 21:21:21 -0400 There have been several comments made by a couple of people on this subject that I wish to address. First the use of the term "towers" is colloquial (slang) in fact they are technically "block stations" regardless of their being in a "tower" type building or an "outhouse" type building. Manual Block Signaling (MBS) came to the PRR ca. 1864 and at one point, I am lead to believe, the entire system was under MBS rules. However, this has not been totally substantiated. The fixed signal used at the entrance to a manual block (where the block station was) was originally a "banner box" signal. These were eventually replaced by lower quadrant (LQ) semaphores, which were replaced by upper quadrant (UQ) semaphores, which were finally replaced by position light (PL) signals. In certain locations the PRR downgraded the attended block station with an unattended block station (part-time or full time) and most of these eventually became block-limit stations (unattended) which had their own discrete signal - a "block-limit" signal. After the introduction of the automatic block signal the PRR installed it on most of its main lines but kept the original MBS system on the branches. Lee said - "A less busy line would have used the operators at the various depots to issue orders allowing trains to proceed between manned, named points where they could receive further orders." Technically, the operators although perhaps were sitting in at depots - were really at "block stations," and after installation of MBS systems would give block clearances (Clear Block and Permissive Block) using the fixed signals at the block station not by train orders. Lee further stated that "Decisions of the kind made in later years at a central CTC board were made partially by the dispatcher and partially by the local tower operator." Well in as much as the PRR was not a big cTc user this is not quite correct for the PRR. Even into the late ABS years, block operators would advise the dispatcher of the arrival of a train into the proximity of their interlocking limits. For example when Train 28 would approach Plymouth block station it would set off a "bell." The Plymouth block operator would announce on the dispatchers block line "28 on the bell track 1." The dispatcher would acknowledge the Plymouth operator and as required give the operator instructions as to what to do with 28. Options were let him go Track 1, crossover to Track 2 or hold him. This happened all up and down the line as the train went from Chicago to New York City. In as much as block stations were required to keep the home signals in the most restrictive aspect (stop-signal) except for permitting of a specific train to pass, I guess one could say that the operation was block station to block station on the main line as well as the branch lines or in the colloquial tower to tower. When things were running right this entire procedure was transparent to the engineman. Mark said "Smaller lines tended to be manual block, as they did not warrant the expense incurred in installing what one could call 'full signal systems'." Once again MBS is just as much a "full signal system" as ABS is. I don't know what the definition of a "full signal system" is - perhaps I need to be enlightened. Mark also said "Manual block can be run on paper only or with signals. PRR was rather fond, more fond than most RRs I'd say, of the signalled variety. Even when run with paper, the block station often had a semaphore (signal) indicating the presence of absence of train orders. The rules of the RR may provide, however, for other methods, such as flags, hand signals, etc." As far as I know the PRR did not run any of its MBS operations using paper only, I can't see where this type operation is permitted in the 300 series rules, I never taught it when I was doing rules examiner's work . Block signals at the entrance to a block were used to give "Clear Block" or "Permissive Block" aspects. At block-limit stations a Form C Clearance Cards was issued. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 22:00:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Set Up Running and Towers In a message dated 5/25/01 8:45:46 PM Central Daylight Time, abbuchan1@home.com writes: << There have been several comments made by a couple of people on this subject that I wish to address , etc>> Thanks, Al, for a clearly written set of facts on this subject. It is one I will save on the hard drive. The issue of PRR train control is the next one I wish to pursue in greater depth. Operations is one which I have been assimilating for several years now, but I want to get PRR-specific. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 22:56:33 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] Loco ID Gary Mittner wrote: > Lists, > > I have been asked to help identify the class's of the following > locos. > > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr110s.jpg > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr216s.jpg > http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr252s.jpg > > I can find pics in books but no class is stated. Captions just say > "six-coupled". Please advise me of class designation if known. Thanks, > Gary ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Gary- 2nd submission. I think these are the correct facts. For some reason, nobody seemed to notice my first post on Thu, 24 May 2001 11:57:44 -040 According to "Keystone Steam & Electric", all locomotives bore names prior to 1857. In that year the first numbers were applied. however, class designations did not start until 1868. They used the letters A thru H for the 1st 8 designs. # 110- classes first listed as D, then B. Original PRR engine. Built prior to 1857. # 216- class listed as B. Original PRR engine. Built 1861-63. # 252- class listed as B. Original PRR engine. Built 1861-63. In 1897 new classes were assigned with the 1st letter indicating wheel arrangement, and a number and suffix indicating modifications. For example, A1, A2, A2a, A3,A3a were 0-4-0's. B1, B2, B3, B3a, B4, B4a, B4b were all 0-6-0's, etc. Hope this is helpful. Regards, Eddie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 06:45:46 -0400 Subject: RE:[PRR] Set Up Running and Towers Let me second the applause for Al's post. It's also my impression that the block operators had, on the PRR, an unusual degree of freedom in making their own decisions about track selection and train priorities in multi-track territory, e.g. New York to Philadelphia. I've seen it written that often the central dispatchers (Movement Bureau Directors -- is that also correct?) would allow the block operators to pretty much run their own show in this regard. Is this true and is it a uniquely Pennsy trait? Also, the use of block-limit stations and signals seems also to be a PRR characteristic. Is this a fair observation? It almost seems to anticipate today's track-warrant control systems used by many roads. And of course those who need to see this type of MBS in service today need only take a trip out to eastern Long Island, where train orders and block-limit stations (and signals) are very much still in service! (Apologies if I am replowing ground on this thread, we were out of the country and some messages got deleted from a cyber-cafe overseas.) John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR Set Up Running and Tower Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 16:01:39 -0400 So much of my message on this subject as reads "Form C Clearance Card" is amended to read "Form K Clearance Card." The Form C Clearance Card is used for a different reason, not to authorize trains by a block-limit station. Sorry for any inconvenience or confusion. I am sending Jerry and Bob Z. a copy of a handout I made for a presentation I recently made on MBS systems at the NMRA-MER meeting in Frazer, PA. Jerry can post it somewhere if he wants. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 03:24:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Bowser repower kits for Bachmann K4s are back Hello list, I just saw Bowser's updated web page. It's URL is http://www.bowser-trains.com/ Good news for those of us with balky Bachmann K4s engines. The English's (Bowser) repower kits (part number 3-200) are about $65. Some of you may make the (perfectly valid) observation that this is about what the Bachmann K4s costs by itself (after discount). While true, I can say that the improvement in performance is remarkable. Repowered with the Bowser chassis, my engine hauled 12 P70s around 24" curves; the longest train I ever tried with a stock Bachmann chassis was 6 P70s. While most of us don't have the space to run 12 car passenger trains, the point I want to make is that the Bowser/English's repower kit has power and lugging capacity to spare. Now, if we could just find a way to get the Alco Products repower kits back into production.... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mike Morrow" Subject: [PRR] MBS Handout Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 07:41:21 -0400 Hi everyone, I too have devoured Set Up Running...best RR book I ever read and as a die hard Elmira Branch fan I am extremely interested in as much information about MBS operations as possible. I look forward to seeing it posted on Jerry's website. Thanks. Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 The Elmira Branch 1956-57 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 09:13:54 -0400 Subject: [PRR] PRR Manual Block System From: Jerry Britton Posted to the Documents section of Keystone Crossings is an article on the PRR's Manual Block Signal System. The article was authored by, and offered by, Al Buchan. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 10:36:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: Congo and Senator consist From: Jerry Britton On 5/25/01 6:30 AM, Jerry Britton at (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > On 5/23/01 3:24 PM, Geoffrey Van Dooren at (geoff_vandooren@yahoo.com) > wrote: > >> the numbers for the Senators are 176 and 177. >> The Congo 124, 131, 152, 153 and maybe 197. > > The consist info for the above was asked for privately, but the answer is > worth posting publicly. The source is the April 1954 "Makeup of Trains" book > issued by the New York Division. > Okay...did the Senators...here are the CONGRESSIONALs: Train 124, The Morning Congressional, daily ex Su, Nov. 25, Dec. 25, Jan 1. dep Washington 8:00 a.m., arr. NYC 11:55 a.m. PS106, from New Orleans via Sou #42, one car PS106, from Knoxville via Sou #42, one car PS106, from Bristol via Sou #42, one car PS106, from Williamson via Sou #42, one car P85H coach-Lounge, from Wash, five cars Coffee Shop Tavern, from Wash, one car P85H Coach-Lounge, from Wash, two cars Dining Room Kitchen, from Wash, two unit set Bar Parlor Lounge, ", " PL7-DR-Telephone, from Wash, one car PL29-DR, from Wash, two cars MTWThF, one car Sa PL-OBS-Bar-Lounge, from Wash, one car Train 131, The Morning Congressional, daily ex Su, Nov. 25, Dec. 25, Jan 1. Dep NYC 6:30 a.m., arr. Washington 10:20 a.m. MS60, Boston-Wash, one car, from NH #179 B60 Express, Pittsfield-Wash, one car, from NH #179 B60 Express, So., Norwalk-Jacksonville, one car, from NH #179 P85H coach-Lounge, to Wash, five cars Coffee Shop Tavern, to Wash, one car P85H Coach-Lounge, to Wash, two cars Dining Room Kitchen, to Wash, two unit set Bar Parlor Lounge, ", " PL7-DR-Telephone, to Wash, one car PL29-DR, to Wash, two cars MTWThF, one car Sa PL-OBS-Bar-Lounge, to Wash, one car Train 152, Daily, dep Washington 4:00 p.m., arr NYC 7:35 p.m. P85H coach-Lounge, from Wash, six cars Coffee Shop Tavern, from Wash, one car P85H Coach-Lounge, from Wash, two cars Dining Room Kitchen, from Wash, two unit set Bar Parlor Lounge, ", " PL7-DR-Telephone, from Wash, one car PL29-DR, from Wash, five cars MTWThF, one car Sa, two cars Su PL-OBS-Bar-Lounge-18 Chair-25 Seat, from Wash, one car Train 153, The Afternoon Congressional, daily, dep NYC 4:30 p.m., arr Washington 8:05 p.m. P70FBR to wash, one car F, two cars Su P85H coach-Lounge, to Wash, six cars Coffee Shop Tavern, to Wash, one car P85H Coach-Lounge, to Wash, two cars Dining Room Kitchen, to Wash, two unit set Bar Parlor Lounge, ", " PL7-DR-Telephone, to Wash, one car PL29-DR, from Wash, five cars MTWThF, one car Sa, two cars Su PL-OBS-Bar-Lounge-18 Chair-25 Seat, from Wash, one car Train 197, The Morning Congressional, only on Sundays and Nov. 25, Dec. 25, Jan. 1, dep NYC 7:00 a.m., arr. Washington 11:00 a.m. MS60 (X), New England points-Wash, no scheduled cars, via NH #179 MS60, Boston-Wash, 2 cars, via NH #183 MS60 (X), to Atlanta, no scheduled cars, to Sou. #35 at Washington MS60 (X), to Jacksonville, no scheduled cars, to SAL #21 at Washington MS60 (X), to Birmingham, no scheduled cars, to Sou. #17 at Washington MS60 (Solid), to Wash, one car P85H Coach-Lounge, to Wash, six cars Dining Room-Kitchen-Bar-Parlor-Lounge, to Wash, one car PL29-DR, to Wash, one car That's all folks!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 11:00:41 EDT Subject: Re: YIKES! [PRR] F-3(EF-15) YIKES! Hey Yuze Guys... Bill Makes some interesting points but... << Oh, well, here I go wading in until I am up to my butt in alligators...>> Join in the water is swimming with them when you touch on this subject... <> This is a fact and the original GTW F-3 phase 2's were rather unusual with the extra square vent behind the screening that others didn't have. And yes the panels were later replaced and "looked like" F-9's in many ways but a trained eye can spot the differences with a little discovery... <> And this is where we get in trouble, assuming what EMD or PRR did with no available purchasing records... But in my research show that the F-3 phase 3's were purchase while EMD still was using the chicken wire along the upper panel. No reason to believe it was a situation like the Santa Fe where they took delivery of F-7's without grills, for whatever the real reason was ... it is still a guess and conjecture even today as to why it happened... <> Bill and all, let's try not to throw conjecture into the works here as Pennsy's buying patterns were different from the Santa Fe's. The Santa Fe Dieselized by Division, and Pennsy Dieselized selectively to replace specific steam locomotives that much we know for sure. PRR used E-units for passenger service the Santa Fe's Backbone of the Passenger Fleet was the F-unit rotating out the earlier versions for the newer ones from the FT forward. This was not the case with the Pennsy. The problem with the phases jumping around (on the PRR) was because of the numbering system and the lack of available numbers at the time the engines were purchased and that certain blocks of numbers still contained steam locomotives. They needed to retire more before they could assign them that particular number. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 11:03:27 EDT From: ESpot21@aol.com Subject: [PRR] test-ignore this is only a test ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 16:01:57 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - congrats to Jerry Breon!!! From: Jerry Britton Though TANGENT to the list topic, as listmaster I like to keep a personal touch among our online family by celebrating personal victories and sharing unfortunate sorrows... Today kudos and congratulations go out to long-time subscriber and PRRT&HS member Jerry Breon. Jerry missed the convention this year as he is part of the Penske Racing Team and was in Indianapolis. Today Team-Penske finished 1st and 2nd at "The Brickyard"!!! Congratulations, Jerry, and enjoy the ride! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: WAJK4@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 19:01:53 EDT Subject: [PRR] Johnstown I am planning on doing some rail fanning in Johnstown next weekend and I was wondering if I could please get some help from people on the lists. 1. Where are good places to watch trains that are safe for myself, my girlfriend, and her seven year old son? A place like Cresson with the park there would be great. 2. Could anyone please help me with directions to these places. I am headed west on the PA Turnpike. If I am just going to Johnstown, should I get off at the Altoona exit and work my way to Johnstown or should I get off at the Johnstown exit of the Turnpike? Please contact me off list or if you believe this would be helpful to everyone on both of the lists, please keep the discussion on the list. Thankyou very much to everyone. Walt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 22:19:42 EDT Subject: [PRR] Johnstown In a message dated 5/27/01 7:07:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, WAJK4@aol.com writes: << Where are good places to watch trains that are safe for myself, my girlfriend, and her seven year old son? >> Remember, with the weather we've been having, that May 31st is the anniversary of the great Johnstown flood that killed 2,200 when the Conemaugh Dam burst in 1889. Perhaps Cresson would be safer..... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 19:31:48 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] Johnstown From: "Douglas Nelson" Walt: > 1. Where are good places to watch trains that are safe for myself, my > girlfriend, and her seven year old son? A place like Cresson with the park > there would be great. There are several good places. One where you can park your car and watch is in Conemaugh with a view of the Franklin steel mill in the background. You can also drive up to C Tower. Point Park near downtown Johnstown, where the Stoney Creek and the Connemaugh River meet, has a good view of the Old Stone Bridge. There is also a trail on the hillside above the Old Stone Bridge that has good view. Don't miss the view from the top of the Incline Plane. Its a great view and you can see the train station and the PRR mainline curving through town. Near Johnstown there are several interest points. You can hike to the Staple Bend Tunnel from Mineral. A good place for a picnic is at the Iron Bridge in Cassandra (west of Portage, just off Route 53). > > 2. Could anyone please help me with directions to these places. I am headed > west on the PA Turnpike. If I am just going to Johnstown, should I get off > at the Altoona exit and work my way to Johnstown or should I get off at the > Johnstown exit of the Turnpike? There is alot to see in Altoona, but if you are heading to Johnstown, take highway 22 to Galitzin. Visit the tunnels and the Allegheny Portage Railway park and then head west on Route 53, which parallels and crosses the mainline several times. When you reach 219, follow the signs to Johnstown. I hope this helps, let me know if you need any other information. Doug Nelson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 06:40:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser repower kits for Bachmann K4s are back Bob, list, The Bowser repower kit I bought came with the (then current) version of the DC71; I imagine that the latest kits will have the skew wound DC-71. I have the skew wound DC71 in a (formerly) USRA light mike; before my power pack went kaput, it was drawing just under 1/2 amp at 12 volts in what will become a CNJ heavy mike for my grandfather. The Bowser chassis is almost exactly the same as the Bowser K4s chassis. There's a piece you add to the cylinders to make the Bachmann boiler to the Bowser chassis (screw driver assembly for everything; fortunately, for me, not brain surgery or welding). The cylinders lack the steam pipes because those are part of the Bachmann shell. If I remember correctly, the trailing truck is a little different to get it to clear the cast on injectors on the Bachmann shell. I haven't actually weighed my conversion (it resides in New Jersey with my grandfather); all I can say is that it definitely weighs more than the Bachmann chassis (even the latest revised version). The Bowser kit includes a pewter boiler weight; I used goo to secure it inside the Bachmann boiler. Bob, you hit it right on the head; you basically save just the Bachmann boiler and park the new mechanism under it. Bowser includes all the parts to electrify the Bachmann tender, including 2FT2 trucks, wire, contacts, and weights. The repowered model will pick up from the right hand drivers and the left hand tender wheels. One of the things I now do to all my Pacifics (I also model CNJ and B&O) is I add brass wheelsets to convert the Bowser lead trucks to pick up electricity (on my less than stellar trackwork, the extra pickups come in handy). I use Bowser's 36012 wheelsets (33" and insulated one side). I cut off the pointy axle ends and they drop right into the Bowser lead truck. I know that the lead truck wheels should be 36." However, I have a 22" radius test oval; I find that the 33" wheels don't hit the cylinders on tight curves, while the 36" wheels did. If you have broader curves, by all means use correct size wheelsets. I haven't experienced short circuits from the Bowser KW trailing truck (but that doesn't mean I won't in the future, given my luck with things mechanical). You'd probably have to change the drawbar to allow for a Bowser tender. You're an old hand at this; in my opinion, if you can assemble the Bowser chassis, creating a new drawbar should be short work. I haven't fitted a Bachmann K4s with the Bowser 130P75 because I plan to use Bowser K4s engines for the engines with 130P75 tenders; I'm using the Bachmann engines to represent the 110P75a variants (did I mention I redetail the tenders to represent stoker fired 110P75As?) Doug --- Bobspf@aol.com wrote, in part: > Doug, what is the difference between this chassis > and the regular Bowser K4 > chassis? What part of the Bachmann do you save? > Just the boiler? Is the > electrical the standard Bowser open-frame motor, > with engine right rail, > tender left rail? Do you use the Bachman tender or > can you use the Bowser, > postwar stoker type? > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 06:47:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser repower kits for Bachmann K4s are back Fred, I repowered my Bowser/Bachmann hybrid with an Alco Products repower kit when they were still available. I did the repowering after I assembled the Bowser chassis; I had to grind away some of the boiler weight to get the Alco Products motor to fit. I finally have flywheels and pulling power in one place (grin!). Doug --- Fred G Rea wrote, in part: > Great! This gives you the best of both worlds, the > > > PS I wonder if you could repower the repower kit > with an Alco can motor > if they were available? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 10:25:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser repower kits for Bachmann K4s are back In a message dated 5/28/01 8:55:51 AM Central Daylight Time, dougkisala@yahoo.com writes: << I repowered my Bowser/Bachmann hybrid with an Alco Products repower kit when they were still available. I did the repowering after I assembled the Bowser chassis; I had to grind away some of the boiler weight to get the Alco Products motor to fit. >> Brings up a question. I had two of the Alco kits. One is in my M-1. The other was purchased for my I-1. Since I will remotor a United I-1 instead, I was thinking of using this in my K-4 instead. I believe it was listed for both, but I was wondering about the gear ratios. Either it would have been a very fast I-1 or a slow K4: which is it? BTW, the Bowser I-1 I have has the old Cary boiler, which is great, but unfortunately requires a monumental milling operation to clear the Helix Humper. Actually, it is kind of too bad the older Pittman motors draw so much current. I bought the I-1 used and it is well broken in and runs very smooth and quiet. However, I don't want to risk a decoder in it. My next challenge is to fit NWSL motors to my T1. I definitely don't want to blow a sound decoder! Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty \(The Cos\)" Subject: [PRR] More C&PD sluice pictures. Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 12:13:58 -0400 Ran across a shoebox of slides this weekend and found the rest of the sluice. The first one is from the inside of the sluice, from it you can see the concrete lining and the details of the A&S bridge over the creek  note the stone lined wall under the A&S, the timber members and the steel I-beams. Note also that there is no expansion joint between the channel section and the sluice. No, that is not me in the picture. http://www.wsbcos.com/cpdch001.jpg 916kb The next is from the south side of the bridge from the A&S level  note the abutment details http://www.wsbcos.com/cpdch002.jpg 735kb The next is from the wash above the A&S, you can see the bridge and the concrete channel. http://www.wsbcos.com/cpdch003.jpg 770kb The last is all looking up the wash, about face from the previous exposure. http://www.wsbcos.com/cpdch004.jpg 1.06mb Cos Cos Communications, Inc. Home Page Rail Road Pages ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR Manual Block System Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 14:11:50 -0400 I am very disappointed in the posting of my article about the PRR's Manual Block Signal System to Keystone Crossings. The graphics and the accompanying verbiage are virtually unreadable and I have asked Jerry to correct it. If it cannot be corrected I will request that it to be withdrawn. In the meantime it can be viewed on the PRR Signaling List. If you are not already a member, to access this list send a blank message addressed to PRRSignaling-subscribe@yahoogroups.com It is in the files section and you can access the file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRSignaling/files/SigRulesOptnDiscussions/Man BlkSigsOPRules/ Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:55:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] Keystone Hi, I'am still working on my final project: a comparison between the Pennsy in 1944 and Amtrak in 2000 on the NYC-CHI passenger trains. I noticed that there is an issue of the Keystone -winter 1991- about the Pennsy during World War II. Who can scan this pages and mail them to me? Thanks in advance Geoffrey geoff_vandooren@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 04:39:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] K4s repower with Alco Products I1sa repower kit? Bob, list, I checked Bowser's catalog. It conveniently lists the gear, worm, and gear ratio for each engine. The Bowser I1s (current production run) uses a 29 to 1 gear ratio, a number 1030 worm, and a number 1021 axle gear (page 22 of Bowser catalog). The Bowser K4s currently uses a 32 to 1 gear ratio, a number 1010 worm, and a number 1011 axle gear (page 43). Based on the above numbers, I don't think putting the I1sa repower kit in the K4s would work without modifications. If you were feeling adventurous and had an NWSL wheel puller and Sensipress (mine are in storage), you could consider buying a number 1030 worm from Bowser and putting that on the Bowser K4s axle. You might also have to consider the height of the Alco Products worm/flywheel; you might need shims under the motor to get it to the right height for good gear mesh. As far as Bowser's gearing, I'm slightly mystified. Perhaps the K4s has drivers large enough to justify the numerically higher 32 to 1 ratio? Usually, increasing the gear ratio slows an engine down, all things being equal. Doug --- Bobspf@aol.com wrote, in part: > > > I had two of the Alco kits....The > other was purchased for my I-1. Since I will > remotor a United I-1 instead, > I was thinking of using this in my K-4 instead. I > believe it was listed for > both, but I was wondering about the gear ratios. > Either it would have been a > very fast I-1 or a slow K4: which is it? > > > Bob Zoeller __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Set Up Running and Towers Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 10:37:27 -0700 From: "John Cooper" My father was a block operator at Union (Rahway, NJ) in the early forties. From his accounts, I would have to say that, no, block operators in the NY-Phila region absolutely did not have freedom to make their own decisions about track selection. The dispatcher was completely in charge of that. My father's accounts differ slightly from what Al described. The block operator did not inquire of the dispatcher as each train approached. By default, trains continued on the same track unless the dispatcher specifically requested something else. (Or they were routed as necessary to get to their destination, reach platforms, etc). When the train passed a block station (tower), the block operator would notify the next tower the time and track on which the train passed. Thus the train was handed off from tower to tower. The dispatcher would inquire at regular intervals for the block operator to read off the train times from the train sheet, allowing the dispatcher to keep track of the progress of trains. So the block operator at Union would announce a train's passing to Edison, Elmora, or South Amboy, as appropriate. And vice versa. This was also my experience when I was recently able to observe operations at Thorn (Thorndale, Pa). Paoli would announce a train's passing. Thorn would in turn announce to Cork (Park was closed). Every 15 or 20 minutes, the dispatcher would call and the block operator would read off the train sheet. (And the block operator was highly irritated that the dispatcher called so often - he said it broke his rhythm). The crossing-over of Thorndale locals and running them deadhead back to the Frazier shops did not seem to require the dispatcher's input. In the days of freight on the Trenton cutoff, I assume Thorn would announce to Nest. In the days of the P&T, I don't know how much discretion the block operator at Thorn had to choose the P&T versus the main, since Glen was controlled remotely from Thorn. I should have asked. John > ---------- > From: bobsin@nac.net[SMTP:bobsin@nac.net] > Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2001 3:45 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: RE:[PRR] Set Up Running and Towers > > It's also my impression that the block operators had, on the PRR, > an unusual degree of freedom in making their own decisions about > track selection and train priorities in multi-track territory, e.g. > New > York to Philadelphia. I've seen it written that often the central > dispatchers (Movement Bureau Directors -- is that also correct?) > would allow the block operators to pretty much run their own show > in this regard. Is this true and is it a uniquely Pennsy trait? > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 12:41:27 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] More C&PD sluice pictures. Cos, As usual, your help is invaluable! I think I have enough info now to really do this right! Happy Rails Bruce >Ran across a shoebox of slides this weekend and found the rest of the >sluice. > >The first one is from the inside of the sluice, from it you can see the >concrete lining and the details of the A&S bridge over the creek  note the >stone lined wall under the A&S, the timber members and the steel I-beams. >Note also that there is no expansion joint between the channel section and >the sluice. No, that is not me in the picture. >http://www.wsbcos.com/cpdch001.jpg 916kb > >The next is from the south side of the bridge from the A&S level  note the >abutment details >http://www.wsbcos.com/cpdch002.jpg 735kb > >The next is from the wash above the A&S, you can see the bridge and the >concrete channel. >http://www.wsbcos.com/cpdch003.jpg 770kb > >The last is all looking up the wash, about face from the previous exposure. >http://www.wsbcos.com/cpdch004.jpg 1.06mb > > > >Cos > >Cos Communications, Inc. >Home Page >Rail Road Pages > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Set Up Running and Towers Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 11:18:16 -0700 From: "John Cooper" I don't know if this is the kind of operating info you're looking for, but it might be interesting anyway. Here's some specifics I've learned from my father who was a block operator at Union in the forties. In those days the passenger trains generally used the outer tracks, and the freights used the inner tracks. Either at that time, or just shortly before, 1 and 4 were rated for 80mph, while 2 and 3 were only good for 60mph. Bi-directional signalling was installed out from New York only as far as Union. Since Union had long crossovers between 2 and 3, and Elmora did not, most crossover moves between 2 and 3 were done at Union. Freight trains entering the main at Lane often tied up track 2 as they had to double up their train. Apparently, the yard was so short that their train was split across two yard tracks. Freights would enter onto the main with the first half, and then have to go back on another yard track to get the rest. Because of this, it was not uncommon for eastbound passenger trains to crossover to 3 at Union, and freights would routinely come west on 2 as far as Union. Eastbound New York locals would crossover to 'A' track for the stop at Rahway back at the westward Union limits (43), not the crossover at the end of the platform (5) that NJT frequently uses today. Westbound locals often had to be held to wait for through passenger trains. The locals would continue on 'B' and wait at the 46Rc signal. The change from steam to electric for South Amboy trains was done using the eastward connecting track. The motor would wait in the middle hole. The steam engine would disconnect from the train and head up the eastward connecting track. The motor would then back against the train. While the motor was coupling, the steam engine would use crossover 33 and go back to Perth Amboy. For westbounds, the motor would cut off from the train and use the 35 crossover to get out of the way. The steam engine would be waiting on the main and back against the train. The dispatcher would tell the block operator at Union where to send the motor. Generally it went to Hunter for a LV train, though sometimes it was sent light all the way back to Sunnyside. John > ---------- > From: Bobspf@aol.com[SMTP:Bobspf@aol.com] > Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 7:00 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] Set Up Running and Towers > > Thanks, Al, for a clearly written set of facts on this subject. It is > one I > will save on the hard drive. The issue of PRR train control is the > next one > I wish to pursue in greater depth. Operations is one which I have been > > assimilating for several years now, but I want to get PRR-specific. > > Bob Zoeller > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:31:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Set Up Running and Towers From: Jerry Britton On 5/29/01 2:18 PM, John Cooper (johncoop@microsoft.com) wrote: > I don't know if this is the kind of operating info you're looking for, > but it might be interesting anyway. Here's some specifics I've learned > from my father who was a block operator at Union in the forties. > > In those days the passenger trains generally used the outer tracks, and > the freights used the inner tracks. NOTE TO ALL: With regard to the use of tracks for freight vs. passenger use, John speaks of the situation at UNION, not system wide. The use of tracks changed from location to location. Assignments are listed in the Employee Timetable for each division. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: AUGUSTOMINARDI@cs.com Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 14:54:24 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Fleet of Modernism Hello fellow Pennsy Fans: Does anyone have any experience painting models in the PRR's Two-tone Tuscan Red "Fleet Of Modernism" paint scheme? I'm looking for a close color match for the two different shades of red on the cars using model railroad paints. Also any suggestions on how to apply the circular gold striping that wrapped around the curved ends of the scheme would also help. Thanks in advance, Gus Minardi ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Fleet of Modernism Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 15:03:51 -0400 Gus and the list, You didn't say what scale you were modeling but if its HO, there are decals available that give the right color when placed over the main color. They also contain all the gold striping. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] (PRR)Dallee Electronics Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 15:14:18 -0400 Group, Has anyone used the sound card from Dallee electronics for the T1? If so how good is it? Etc. Thanks in advance Sam Vastano _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 17:02:10 -0400 From: "Andrew S. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Fleet of Modernism All right - I give up Chris, who makes these decals? It sounds like an idea I've thought of for a while. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ================================================== "Chany, Christopher" wrote: > > Gus and the list, > > You didn't say what scale you were modeling but if its HO, there are decals > available that give the right color when placed over the main color. They > also contain all the gold striping. > > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 17:14:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Fleet of Modernism Andy, Not sure what decals Chris is referring to but I know of the ones that Hugh Deberthine produced under the name of PRR Research something something something. These were available in the late 1970's I beleive. I picked up several sets at a Timonium show years ago. Not enough to do a complete train but at least enough for a few cars of the FOM cars inserted into a train.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 17:24:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Fleet of Modernism Andy, I dug out my FOM Decals. They are dated 1984. They were sold under the name of "Pennsy Retail Reearch". Again, these were done for Hugh Debberthine. The decals themselves are from Accu-Cals. (Not sure if the artwork is still retained and who owns them) They contain plenty of car names, numbers, gold stripping, window stripe, Pennsylvania and Pullman Letterboards. They look really really fun, if you know what I mean. I have never done any yet and I will probably have to gloss coat the decals before using because of the age of them. Someday I will have to try one......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 19:29:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Fleet of Modernism In a message dated 5/29/01 4:32:22 PM Central Daylight Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << I dug out my FOM Decals. They are dated 1984. They were sold under the name of "Pennsy Retail Reearch". >> Middle Division put some decals out, too. I picked up a straggler set at Des Plaines Hobbies years ago. I will also have to do something to them before I use them, they are that old. Unfortunately, the only set left was for Pennsy heavyweight cars. That means for a PS 4-4-2 I would have to find a gold leaf Pullman in Futura, or, since I model postwar, I think a Pullman in Railroad Roman or whatever it is called would suffice. You are correct in that it looks like a "fun" project, meaning taking a few weeks off to do it (sounds like my current one of putting a decoder in the Kato NW2). I think it might be easier to mask for the dark maroon than get a carside decal to lie flat over window openings, et al. At an NMRA clinic, a consistent national contest winner with mostly GN diesels made patterns from brass sheet. Then used them to cut drafting tape on a piece of plate glass. This would be especially good for doing a fleet. Then I would be faced with putting on the striping, which I think I could do in fourths. Project No. 87 on the list. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Fleet of Modernism Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 10:12:29 -0400 The decals were from Hugh Deberthine produced under Pennsy Retail Research I don't know if Accucals still makes them. However I did see stacks of them at the PRRT&HS meeting. The decal is one huge sheet for the side of the car. I did one car an E&B Valley (Eastern Car Works) Pullman I had no problem with the windows but ended up with tons of air bubbles that had to be taken care of. Next time I will remove some of the clear carrier that separates the stripes. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 10:23:17 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Fleet of Modernism From: Jerry Britton On 5/30/01 10:12 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > The decals were from Hugh Deberthine produced under Pennsy Retail Research > I don't know if Accucals still makes them. However I did see stacks of them > at the PRRT&HS meeting. The decal is one huge sheet for the side of the > car. I did one car an E&B Valley (Eastern Car Works) Pullman I had no > problem with the windows but ended up with tons of air bubbles that had to > be taken care of. Next time I will remove some of the clear carrier that > separates the stripes. > About a year ago, Nick Semen of Middle Division indicated he was going to do these decals in HO and, most recently, indicated he is considering it in N. However, don't hold your breath! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 10:37:19 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Manual Block System From: Jerry Britton A few days ago I posted to "Keystone Crossings" an article by Al Buchan on the PRR Manual Block System. As many know, Al was disappointed with the presentation. He supplied me with a Microsoft Word document and, in the interest of time over the holiday weekend, I used Word's "Save as HTML" feature. Oooops! Along similar lines, he gave permission for the article to be posted elsewhere, which it was, in its original Microsoft Word format. Well, they're still arguing over acceptable file formats for posting!!! I just spent an hour or so sprucing this up. It loads a little slow as we decided to keep the graphics hi-res. However, it has earned Al's approval and I thank him for sharing this data to all. The URL is http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/mbs/mbs.ws4d I have also notified Al that I would be happy to share the HTML files with those other sites, at their request. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Set Up Running and Towers Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 10:47:10 -0400 I agree with John Cooper regarding the NY-PHL block operators having little freedom to make their own routing decisions - this was the dispatcher's responsibility. In large terminal interlocking such as "Jay" on the LIRR there was some leeway as to train routings. But there you have a "train director" in charge of the tower and things are limited anyway as the same trains typically used the same platforms every day to facilitate the riding passengers ability to predetermine what platform their train would be arriving/departing on. Could you imagine the chaos that would rein at Jamaica if many trains were diverted from their normal platform? To clarify a point that John stated, I didn't mean to intimate that the block operators I were talking about (specifically at Plymouth) inquired of the dispatcher as a train came "on the bell." That was merely a piece of info passed along by the block operator with no response necessarily required on the dispatcher's part. It gave the dispatcher sort of an update on where his traffic was. It has also been my experience while working on many railroads throughout the country that dispatchers would often acknowledge information received by using the phrase - "Mmm alright, okay." While on the subject of railroad language another interesting phrase used among railroaders especially the PRR folks was "why ah," which seem to be used as a filler when there was a lull in conversation, or when someone was about to say something and used it as the entry phrase. Also I didn't mention in this previous post but I had in a much earlier post (year + ago?) like John said the trains were all reported "out of station" "OS" by the block operators as they went by the block station. On the Ft. Wayne Division they also reported the condition of the trains markers, LMO - left marker out, RMM - right marker missing, etc. if there was a discrepancy from the normal Rule 19 requirements. Trains indeed were handed off block station to block station much the same as air traffic is today handed off from one controller to another. Regarding John's question about the operator's flexibility regarding a freight's use of the P&T vs. the Main Line - I doubt if he had any at all - this would have been a dispatchers decision as he has a total view of his territory and the potential problems down the line. Unlike a block operator, which usually has a rather limited up to date view of how the railroad was flowing beyond the next one or two block stations. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [AD][PRR] PRR Fleet of Modernism Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 12:52:29 -0400 At this time, we still have four sealed sets of the FOM decals from Penny Retail Research (these are NOT on our web site). These sets include the bronze gold stripes and a garrish looking pinkish stripe printed in registration and a separate sheet of decals for the letterboard , car names and numbers as appropriate. The pink color is semi transparent and WILL produce the proper shade when decaled over the Tuscan Red car side. The stripes have been cut in half and must be spliced on the car side. When these were originally released, the limiting factor was the equipment that Accucals used to make the decals. I have used a set to do one car. I overlapped the stripe joint on one side and I butted the stripes on the other side. I did NOT like the overlapped joint and subsequently stripped the car. However, the butt joint, while taking a little bit of time, DID look pretty good after receiving a coat of gloss. I used a smooth sided Soho passenger car. I removed all grab irons and handrails before painting and decalling. The Middle Division FOM decals were released some time ago. Their decals, IIRC, also included the gold stripes in registration and a separate dark color decal for the window panel. As they were originally sold, the striping and the dark window band were cut in the middle to fit the packaging. At that time, we were able to get the decals in bulk, without the packaging, where the long pieces were NOT cut. We have sold out of the Middle Division sets for the FOM. I have talked to Middle Division within the last week. They indicate they will be reprinting some of their decals and plan on having some new items. The printer they had used in the past is no longer in business. They are searching for a printer that can produce the quality that Middle Division has been noted for. We will be stocking all of their new offerings. When they are released...... Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Britton To: Chany, Christopher ; 'Andrew S. Miller' Cc: Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 10:23 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Fleet of Modernism > On 5/30/01 10:12 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > > > The decals were from Hugh Deberthine produced under Pennsy Retail Research > > I don't know if Accucals still makes them. However I did see stacks of them > > at the PRRT&HS meeting. The decal is one huge sheet for the side of the > > car. I did one car an E&B Valley (Eastern Car Works) Pullman I had no > > problem with the windows but ended up with tons of air bubbles that had to > > be taken care of. Next time I will remove some of the clear carrier that > > separates the stripes. > > > About a year ago, Nick Semen of Middle Division indicated he was going to do > these decals in HO and, most recently, indicated he is considering it in N. > > However, don't hold your breath! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Laird" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Manual Block System Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 19:09:08 -0500 Jerry and Al, Thanks for working this out. The end result is a benefit to us all. Bill Laird Canyon Lake, TX ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 9:37 AM Subject: [PRR] Manual Block System > A few days ago I posted to "Keystone Crossings" an article by Al Buchan on > the PRR Manual Block System. > > As many know, Al was disappointed with the presentation. He supplied me with > a Microsoft Word document and, in the interest of time over the holiday > weekend, I used Word's "Save as HTML" feature. Oooops! > > Along similar lines, he gave permission for the article to be posted > elsewhere, which it was, in its original Microsoft Word format. Well, > they're still arguing over acceptable file formats for posting!!! > > I just spent an hour or so sprucing this up. It loads a little slow as we > decided to keep the graphics hi-res. However, it has earned Al's approval > and I thank him for sharing this data to all. > > The URL is > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/mbs/mbs.ws4d > > I have also notified Al that I would be happy to share the HTML files with > those other sites, at their request. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Franke" Subject: [PRR] K-4's Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 11:01:20 -0400 What color were the cab roofs and tender decks painted on K-4's ?. It's also hard to tell from photos if they were all painted or just some of them. Any ideas? Thanks in advance Mark Franke PRR in Nscale ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 22:43:38 +0000 From: knmeyer Subject: Re: [PRR] Manual Block System Al and Jerry thanks for sharing. Jerry Britton wrote: > > A few days ago I posted to "Keystone Crossings" an article by Al Buchan on > the PRR Manual Block System. > > As many know, Al was disappointed with the presentation. He supplied me with > a Microsoft Word document and, in the interest of time over the holiday > weekend, I used Word's "Save as HTML" feature. Oooops! > > Along similar lines, he gave permission for the article to be posted > elsewhere, which it was, in its original Microsoft Word format. Well, > they're still arguing over acceptable file formats for posting!!! > > I just spent an hour or so sprucing this up. It loads a little slow as we > decided to keep the graphics hi-res. However, it has earned Al's approval > and I thank him for sharing this data to all. > > The URL is > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/docs/mbs/mbs.ws4d > > I have also notified Al that I would be happy to share the HTML files with > those other sites, at their request. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Matthew J. Brown" Subject: [PRR] MP54 direction Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 04:08:01 -0700 Were MP54s always oriented in the same direction when multiple working together? All the photos I have show that. Was it because two pantographs cannot be that close together? If so, did all sets working on the same line point the same way? -Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 direction Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 09:17:19 -0400 Matt: Pantographs were spaced on MU cars for the same reason the rear "pan" was almost always used on motors - if it snagged the catenary and was damaged, it would not damage another "pan", so the train could continue using the second "pan". This is assuming the catenary wasn't pulled down as well! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew J. Brown" To: "PRR Talk List" Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 7:08 AM Subject: [PRR] MP54 direction > Were MP54s always oriented in the same direction when multiple working > together? All the photos I have show that. Was it because two pantographs > cannot be that close together? > > If so, did all sets working on the same line point the same way? > > -Matt > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 direction Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 06:51:21 -0700 On Thu, 31 May 2001 09:17:19 -0400 "Gregg Mahlkov" wrote: > Matt: > This is assuming the catenary wasn't pulled > down as well! As usually happened (as on the infamous fan trip back in '56 or so...the pan snagged the wire and took down a half-dozen or so spans)! Oops... Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 09:27:55 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4's >What color were the cab roofs and tender decks painted on K-4's ?. It's also >hard to tell from photos if they were all painted or just some of them. Any >ideas? >Thanks in advance >Mark Franke >PRR in Nscale Mark, There is nothing more likely to stir up a hornets nest of debate with SPFs than this topic! The battle lines are clearly drawn, and you have to decide which side you're on ! Here are some pointers: 1) The color specified by PRR for cab roofs and tender decks is Freight Car Color, however repairs and repaints of cab roofs do specify varying mixes of FCC or red and black. Note that early FCC is oranger than later FCC. 2) MOST (perhaps all?) locos in the K4 class probably received this treatment, and perhaps red/orange window sashes as well. 3) B&W photo evidence is VERY difficult to interpret as many of the films in use did not react to all wave lengths of light the same (thus the yellow herald on a UTLX tank car dissappears into the black body). Color evidence is rare and usually from the very end of the steam era. Color films did not (and still do not) represent many colors correctly either. 4) Weathering effects often result in the FCC being covered completely by soot in a matter of hours/days after repainting. Close examination of color photos can show what look like black roofs to actually be FCC/red if you look in sheltered areas, such as under smoke deflectors, etc... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 direction Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 10:38:55 -0400 Bill: Were you on that trip too? I well recall it! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Matthew J. Brown" ; "PRR Talk List" Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 9:51 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 direction > On Thu, 31 May 2001 09:17:19 -0400 > "Gregg Mahlkov" wrote: > > Matt: > > > This is assuming the catenary wasn't pulled > > down as well! > > As usually happened (as on the infamous fan trip back in '56 > or so...the pan snagged the wire and took down a half-dozen > or so spans)! > > Oops... > > Bill Daniels > Tucson, AZ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 10:40:06 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4's In a message dated 5/31/01 9:34:56 AM Central Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << Weathering effects often result in the FCC being covered completely by soot in a matter of hours/days after repainting. >> Good and brave answer, Bruce! First thing I do to Bachmann K4's is heavily chalk the main boiler with a dark green to get a DGLE cast to the black they use and VERY heavily chalk the cab roof and tender deck with black soot to almost obliterate , but not eliminate, the FCC. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Set Up Running and Towers Date: Thu, 31 May 101 11:59:57 -0400 (EDT) John Cooper scribit: > > My father's accounts differ slightly from what Al described. The block > operator did not inquire of the dispatcher as each train approached. By > default, trains continued on the same track unless the dispatcher > specifically requested something else. (Or they were routed as > necessary to get to their destination, reach platforms, etc). When the > train passed a block station (tower), the block operator would notify > the next tower the time and track on which the train passed. Thus the > train was handed off from tower to tower. The dispatcher would inquire > at regular intervals for the block operator to read off the train times > from the train sheet, allowing the dispatcher to keep track of the > progress of trains. I spent lots of time at CORK while I was in college 3 miles away in Lancaster. My recollection is that the tower operators called the dispatcher with each train. Then again, at that time (1980-1983), Conrail had just removed their freights over to the Reading line, and the train traffic by CORK was quite light. Of course, the line was much busier east of Paoli. Nevertheless, "block line etiquette" dictated that the block op often had to wait to talk to the dspr, and sometimes ended up handling another call and returning to the block line. He would get on the block line and say "CORK", then wait. The response generally came back in 20-40 seconds, but sometimes he had to wait several minutes to get a response from the other end. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 09:09:15 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4's and photos of them --- "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: > 3) B&W photo evidence is VERY difficult to > interpret as many of the films > in use did not react to all wave lengths of light > the same (thus the yellow > herald on a UTLX tank car dissappears into the black > body). In the mid-50's Kodak published a booklet: "Color as Seen and Photographed". As I recall it had a dandy write-up on the evolution of photographic films. Drawing on that through the defective filter of memory, padded out with "what some guy told me years ago", there were three distinct flavors of black-and-white film. The earliest available was sensitive to only blue light. The next few decades of progress centered on making it more sensitive, but still only to blue light. Next, film sensitive to blue and green, called "orthochromatic"; finally blue, green and red, called "panchromatic". Once ortho film became available, it was fashionable to refer to the earlier type as "color-blind film". I'm hazy on dates, and I suppose there were periods of years where one had a choice "Ya want regular film or that new ortho stuff?". Apparently general availablity of ortho film dates to the mid-30's. Pan film may have become available not long after but by then WW2 was in progress and the military got first crack at film production. I'm not at all sure when ortho film went out of general use. I think some of the film I bought in the late '40's may have been ortho (although at the time I had not yet read the Kodak pamphlet and didn't know). So, fairly recent photos (recent by RR history time scales) may have been taken on color-blind film or ortho film. Regarding the latter, you may have noticed in old (but not terribly old) movies that the actresses' lips sometimes are startlingly black. Ortho film in action. Since neither of the pre-pan films were sensitive to red light, probably most pre-WW2 photos of K-4's or anything else with FCC on cab or tender deck would darken the red to black or very dark grey. The comment above regarding UTLX reporting marks indicates that the photo was taken on non-panchromatic film, as yellow light is of longer wavelength than green, and hence invisible to non-pan film. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 12:16:26 EDT From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4's Ball's book, "The PRR in the 40's and 50's" Has a couple of views from a stored serviceable steam engine at Altoona after rebuilding. I realize that printing and film aging cause color variations but it appears to be closer to an oxide red to my eyes. An interesting fatc he points out is that the inside of the smokestacks were also painted red. I haven't painted any engines recently but I have always liked the look of FLoquil red primer. I agree with the comments about covering it with smoke and soot. I lightly airbrush the boiler top, cab roof and tender deck with Floquil graphite. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mark Franke" Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4's Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 11:05:46 -0400 Thanks to all who replied. Bottom line, I'll use FCC on all of them and weather ALOT. Thanks again Mark Franke PRR Nscale ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. To: Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 10:27 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4's > >What color were the cab roofs and tender decks painted on K-4's ?. It's also > >hard to tell from photos if they were all painted or just some of them. Any > >ideas? > >Thanks in advance > >Mark Franke > >PRR in Nscale > > Mark, > > There is nothing more likely to stir up a hornets nest of debate with SPFs > than this topic! The battle lines are clearly drawn, and you have to > decide which side you're on ! Here are some pointers: > > 1) The color specified by PRR for cab roofs and tender decks is Freight > Car Color, however repairs and repaints of cab roofs do specify varying > mixes of FCC or red and black. Note that early FCC is oranger than later > FCC. > > 2) MOST (perhaps all?) locos in the K4 class probably received this > treatment, and perhaps red/orange window sashes as well. > > 3) B&W photo evidence is VERY difficult to interpret as many of the films > in use did not react to all wave lengths of light the same (thus the yellow > herald on a UTLX tank car dissappears into the black body). Color evidence > is rare and usually from the very end of the steam era. Color films did > not (and still do not) represent many colors correctly either. > > 4) Weathering effects often result in the FCC being covered completely by > soot in a matter of hours/days after repainting. Close examination of > color photos can show what look like black roofs to actually be FCC/red if > you look in sheltered areas, such as under smoke deflectors, etc... > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] K-4's Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:21:29 -0700 I am tempted to agree with Bruce on this (although I long ago learned NEVER to make sweeping statements regarding the PRR... :-)although I am begining to believe that on some lines near the end, some locomotives might have been painted solid DGLE. If you have a copy of Don Ball's THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD 1940'S-1950'S you could check out the photo of the L1s on the lower half of page 90...if you look CAREFULLY you can just make out that the tender deck is really red...under the grime and soot. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Thu, 31 May 2001 09:27:55 -0500 "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: > >What color were the cab roofs and tender decks painted > on K-4's ?. It's also > >hard to tell from photos if they were all painted or > just some of them. Any > >ideas? > >Thanks in advance > >Mark Franke > >PRR in Nscale > > Mark, > > There is nothing more likely to stir up a hornets nest of > debate with SPFs > than this topic! The battle lines are clearly drawn, and > you have to > decide which side you're on ! Here are some pointers: > > 1) The color specified by PRR for cab roofs and tender > decks is Freight > Car Color, however repairs and repaints of cab roofs do > specify varying > mixes of FCC or red and black. Note that early FCC is > oranger than later > FCC. > > 2) MOST (perhaps all?) locos in the K4 class probably > received this > treatment, and perhaps red/orange window sashes as well. > > 3) B&W photo evidence is VERY difficult to interpret as > many of the films > in use did not react to all wave lengths of light the > same (thus the yellow > herald on a UTLX tank car dissappears into the black > body). Color evidence > is rare and usually from the very end of the steam era. > Color films did > not (and still do not) represent many colors correctly > either. > > 4) Weathering effects often result in the FCC being > covered completely by > soot in a matter of hours/days after repainting. Close > examination of > color photos can show what look like black roofs to > actually be FCC/red if > you look in sheltered areas, such as under smoke > deflectors, etc... > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be > happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ > ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ > __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | > ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 > 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message > "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!