Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 11:43:54 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Listserv Problem, Correction From: Jerry Britton Listers, An "on-the-ball" Reading-Talk/Conrail-talk subscriber brought to my attention errors he was receiving back from the listserv when attempting to post. Our DNS/Mail server has, remarkably, only a 350MB drive. It was full. A subscriber was not reachable and, for one reason or another, the bouncebacks were not tripping our automated bounce management. Anyway, his account alone was consuming 88MB of space. Normally there is about 100MB for e-mail, so this situation left only about 12MB! Unfortunately, even with deleting this mail, the listserv forwards via this mail server and had several hundred MB's of mail waiting in the wings, so it filled up the hard drive ASAP as well! While 100MB of free space is plenty for 99% of the time, I happened to have a spare 4GB drive nearby, so the mail server now has PLENTY of space! The mail server is now playing catchup, so please be patient. A few notes: * If you received bounce-backs on mail you tried to post, please try again. It should go through now. * You may receive some posts that seem old (1-2 days, perhaps). That's stuff you never got because there wasn't enough room on the mail server to accept mail from the listserver. * I "suspect" there may be some duplicate posts due to my taking the mail server up and down a few times this morning. Now's a good time to exercise that DELETE KEY reflex! If you notice any anomolies come, say Tuesday, let me know. Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmeister ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 11:53:44 -0400 Subject: [PRR] New Activity on Cumberland Valley Branch From: Jerry Britton Back around December I reported being over by LEMO, where the Cumberland Valley Branch crossed the Northern Central Branch at grade. The Northern Central tracks are long since gone, as are the CV tracks curving south onto the NCRy as well as the CV tracks across the bridge into Harrisburg. Amtrak has a wye in Harrisburg, with the stub end extending slightly onto the CV bridge, but not very far. The City of Harrisburg has been trying to build a dam for years, using the CV bridge as its base. It was my understanding that the city bought the bridge from Conrail early on and is the current owner, though that may be inaccurate. Anyway, in December, I reported that it looked like the entire length of the bridge had been reballasted. Yesterday I was at the site again. NS crews were actively relocating power lines from old vine-covered power poles to NEW power poles. What's going on here? Is the bridge being reactivated? NS currently runs eastbound traffic on the Lurgan Line over the Reading Bridge, then swings trains on a horrendous curve into Harrisburg, over the Rockville Bridge, and back into Enola. Using the CV bridge would provide a must smoother curve into Harrisburg, and also allows access directly into Enola from the south. Question is, where are they (or planning to) get trains off the Lurgan line onto the CV line west of LEMO? I believe the two lines both went through/near Shippensburg. Anything going on there? Final possibility: could be related to the greater Harrisburg lite commuter rail project. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gas Electric/Timonium Show. Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 00:21:03 -0500 Doug and Bruce:- It (the Bachmann doodlebug) is not Quite that bad. It is a "typical" Electro-Motive Corp., design as built by St. Louis Car Co. in that it is the blend of individual features of several different EMC cars. Unfortunately, PRR's doodlebugs were built by J. G. Brill, a good old Philadelphia company! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F Smith" To: "Doug Day" Cc: Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gas Electric/Timonium Show. > Doug, > > Yes, the PRR owned a number of classes of gas electric and oil electric > cars. Unfortuantely, the "model" produced by Botchman is a freelanced > creation of their imaginations and represents no known prototype from any > road or manufacturer. It ain't just not Pennsy, its not anything! The > only available models of PRR "doodlebugs" are brass and there are a number > of them (representing the fairly wide range of classes). The PRR was > never as big a user of these cars as many other railroads, seemingly > prefering the flexibility of a smaller H, E or G class steamer with a > couple of cars to the fixed asset of a motorcar. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Doug Day wrote: > > > Did our beloved PRR own these. I thought I saw something that looked like a > > Doodlebug once in a PRR photo. I have one (Bachmann Doodlebug) lettered for > > the NYC (yuck!) and would like to re-do it for the PRR. Would need > > lettering/numbering/interior info also. > > > > As a side item; is anybody doing Timonium next weekend. > > > > Doug > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 03:47:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] block signals Hey list, which color had the block signal poles: black or dark gray? I hope that the Pennsy engineers stopped when they indicated stop because in Belgium they don't. Last Tuesday a empty passenger MU train ignored the red light and proceded 8 kilometres against 70 KPM on the wrong track towards another MU train with 80 passengers, all efforts to stop the trains came to late so they crashed, the first wagon of the loaded MU made a salto and landed on top of the second wagon, the first wagon of the empty train was standing almost vertically in the air. 8 people were killed and 11 were injured. This was the second wreck in 5 days (two freight trains)and the third (two MOW trains)in a month with trains ignoring red lights. Keep it safe, Geoffrey __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 10:45:57 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Equipment changes From: "William J. Ayers" List, At crew change points across the system, engines and cabin cars were changed along with the crews. At some time after the war, this practice stopped. Just when did it stop and what were the reasons for it? Was it to consolidate routine maintenance and downgrade many smaller facilities as a cost cutting measure? TIA Bill Ayers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 13:41:31 -0400 From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] New Activity on Cumberland Valley Branch --On Sunday, April 01, 2001 11:53:44 AM -0400 Jerry Britton wrote: > Back around December I reported being over by LEMO, where the Cumberland > Valley Branch crossed the Northern Central Branch at grade. > > The Northern Central tracks are long since gone, as are the CV tracks > curving south onto the NCRy as well as the CV tracks across the bridge > into Harrisburg. Amtrak has a wye in Harrisburg, with the stub end > extending slightly onto the CV bridge, but not very far. > > The City of Harrisburg has been trying to build a dam for years, using the > CV bridge as its base. It was my understanding that the city bought the > bridge from Conrail early on and is the current owner, though that may be > inaccurate. Isn't this going to be how the E-town to (currently Mechanicsburg, eventually Carlisle) light right line is going to cross the river? > Final possibility: could be related to the greater Harrisburg lite > commuter rail project. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 17:05:52 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Change In ListServ Settings From: Jerry Britton In wading through the recent listserv problem, it was uncovered that someone (I and many others know who) on the Conrail-Talk list posted a 1.2MB file. How can this be? Aren't enclosures blocked? They sure are. This 1.2MB was actually in the BODY of the e-mail!!! After receiving some direct abuse from some of the subscribers, the offending poster offered his apology. Enough said on that. However, I have now set a 32K limit on messages, in addition to disallowing (true) enclosures as well as MIME format. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmeister ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 19:59:48 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gas Electric/Timonium Show. In a message dated 4/1/01 3:26:50 PM Central Daylight Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: << It is a "typical" Electro-Motive Corp., design as built by St. Louis Car Co. in that it is the blend of individual features of several different EMC cars. >> Although I no longer drink "hard" liquor, the only blend I ever liked was Canadian Club or VO ! I prefer my models to be a prototype of something even if it is not my favorite. But I have another problem with Bachmann's choice. Why in God's name didn't they pick a double-ended prototype. Or do they only consider the Christmas tree oval market? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 21:03:45 EDT Subject: [PRR] Doodlebugs In a message dated 4/1/01 8:08:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << But I have another problem with Bachmann's choice. Why in God's name didn't they pick a double-ended prototype. >> Then there's the MTH scenario in O-27. Their "DOODLEBUG" has twin motors and can be used to pull a healthy freight train. After they took some grief over this, and with customers demanding something to pull, they issued a version with "0" motors - and suggested that they be run back to back - anybody ever see or hear tell of this? To their credit, they used a sound chip without "Radio chatter" after they were responsible for much merriment when their model "The General" radioed the tower - "over" Seriously, you sometimes wonder if anybody double checks, or even thinks some things through. I saw a model of an NYC Green Auto loader Saturday - 1960's paint job: loaded with (supposedly) new 1949 Mercurys - right next to it was a model loaded with 1968 Camaros, which would have been appropriate. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 21:50:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gas Electric/Timonium Show. In a message dated 4/1/2001 4:26:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: > Unfortunately, > PRR's doodlebugs were built by J. G. Brill, a good old Philadelphia company! > So good a Philadelphia company, that a tower (and now a Amtrak CP) was/is named after the factory site (of which only a concrete frame, and the ramp down onto the PRR line remains...was Brill also served by the B&O from the other side of its plant??). Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Relaid Rail Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 22:17:47 -0400 << The solution was to swap the rails between the inner and the outer positions yielding good rail heads. >> Pennsy did this, regularly, on the famous curve below Galitzen ========== Its call transposing. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 08:40:05 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gas Electric/Timonium Show. From: John Sheets That CR "Brill" CP comes from Brill Tower on the PRR Phila - Wash main. Don;t believe that the Beano served the plant. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 08:46:01 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gas Electric/Timonium Show. Gregg Mahlkov said: >It (the Bachmann doodlebug) is not Quite that bad. It is a "typical" >Electro-Motive Corp., design as built by St. Louis Car Co. in that it is the >blend of individual features of several different EMC cars. Unfortunately, >PRR's doodlebugs were built by J. G. Brill, a good old Philadelphia company! Well, beggining to differ Gregg, but it is that bad...Botchman made a nearly state-of-art model, with nice details, seperate grabs, an interior, etc, and it isn't even suitable as a model of any one EMC car. The very least they could have done was accurately modeled a prototype EMC. After all, we know they can model prototypes - just look at their heavyweights (requisite PRR content )...so why on earth did they chose to produce a fantasy model? (which they admit was originally conceived on a paper napkin) Frankly, its a company without a clue...Their "sins" outnumber their winners, even with respect to PRR...amongst the many...producing the K4 with a 110P70 tender (OK, so even our beloved Bowser is clueless with respect to tenders), and REFUSING (even when asked repeatedly) to market the trucks under the PRR heavyweights seperately (boy do I wish I could re-equip my ECW P-70s with Botchman trucks). Well, 'nuff said, I'll don the asbestos now Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 06:44:50 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Geographic name server Many months ago I commented on the Geographic Name Server operated by the Geological Survey. It became more useful a year or so ago when the USGS linked their site to Terraserver. That is, once you've put in a place name, and the USGS server has found at least one instance of that name, you're offered a choice of viewing: 1. A USGS topographic map 2. A USGS aerial photo 3. A Census Bureau outline map 4. An EPA watershed map Recently, USGS moved things around. The current URL for this service is: http://geonames.usgs.gov/gnisform.html I've found it useful, hope you do. The USGS seems to know some place names that Terraserver doesn't. That is, I've put in a place name for the search engine at Terraserver, gotten "No find'em"; went to GNIS, put in the same name and it found it, and then allowed me to link to Terraserver to see the map Terraserver couldn't find. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gas Electric/Timonium Show. Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 10:30:31 -0400 Bruce:- I model in N scale, where their heavyweights have NO protoype whatsoever! I had hoped that they would follow through in N with the PRR cars macde in HO. I bought a PRR doodlebug cheap from BLW and can't use it as it is too long and strikes scenery nothing else hits. If you think it's bad, you ought to see the one I cobbled together from a Rapido FP9, a Lima RPO combine, and Kato-Concor "shortie" sideframes. That was done around 1970. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." To: Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 9:46 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gas Electric/Timonium Show. > Gregg Mahlkov said: > > >It (the Bachmann doodlebug) is not Quite that bad. It is a "typical" > >Electro-Motive Corp., design as built by St. Louis Car Co. in that it is the > >blend of individual features of several different EMC cars. Unfortunately, > >PRR's doodlebugs were built by J. G. Brill, a good old Philadelphia company! > > Well, beggining to differ Gregg, but it is that bad...Botchman made a > nearly state-of-art model, with nice details, seperate grabs, an interior, > etc, and it isn't even suitable as a model of any one EMC car. The very > least they could have done was accurately modeled a prototype EMC. After > all, we know they can model prototypes - just look at their heavyweights > (requisite PRR content )...so why on earth did they chose to produce a > fantasy model? (which they admit was originally conceived on a paper > napkin) Frankly, its a company without a clue...Their "sins" outnumber > their winners, even with respect to PRR...amongst the many...producing the > K4 with a 110P70 tender (OK, so even our beloved Bowser is clueless with > respect to tenders), and REFUSING (even when asked repeatedly) to market > the trucks under the PRR heavyweights seperately (boy do I wish I could > re-equip my ECW P-70s with Botchman trucks). > > Well, 'nuff said, I'll don the asbestos now > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 07:47:32 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] N Scale Prototypes, was PRR Gas Electric/Timonium Show. From: "Doug and Marianne" Greg wrote: > I model in N scale, where their heavyweights have NO protoype whatsoever! This is not quite true - the Lima/Model Power heavyweight coach and combine are accurate PRR prototypes for an early P70 coach and PBM70 coach/baggage/mail. The Rivarossi heavyweight pullman is accurate for a Pullman 12-1 sleeping car, of which many operated on the PRR. Doug Nelson. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] N Scale Prototypes, was PRR Gas Electric/Timonium Show. Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 11:20:13 -0400 Doug Nelson: I was referring ONLY to the Bachmann cars in reply to Bruce's post about the HO Bachmann cars!!!!! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug and Marianne" To: "Gregg Mahlkov" ; ; Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 10:47 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] N Scale Prototypes, was PRR Gas Electric/Timonium Show. > Greg wrote: > > > I model in N scale, where their heavyweights have NO protoype whatsoever! > > This is not quite true - the Lima/Model Power heavyweight coach and combine > are accurate PRR prototypes for an early P70 coach and PBM70 > coach/baggage/mail. The Rivarossi heavyweight pullman is accurate for a > Pullman 12-1 sleeping car, of which many operated on the PRR. > > Doug Nelson. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 15:06:08 -0700 From: James Stob Subject: [PRR] PRR Kings Pattern Dining Car Silver Greetings from sunny Florida, I am looking for a four or five place setting of the Kings Pattern silverware with the Keystone logo on the handle of each piece. Made by both International Silver and Reed & Barton. Anyone know where I can find this. E-Bay only now and then has part of a place setting. Also looking for the PRR Dining Car cookbook and serving instructions. Thanks, Jim Stob Palm Beach Gardens, FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 12:44:24 -0700 Subject: [PRR] N Scale PRR B60b Baggage Car Announcement From: "Doug and Marianne" Hell Gate Models New Product Announcement: Web: http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/HellGate/headend.htm To order direct, send and email message to: hellgatemodels@yahoo.com Hell Gate Models is pleased to present our first new N scale product: Pennsylvania Railroad B60b baggage and express cars. The kits are cast resin (one-piece body and separate underframe) and come in two versions, a standard version and a messenger-equipped version with roof vents. The kits include correct PRR 2D-P5 trucks by East Wind Manufacturing and separate brake wheel. The one-piece cast body makes for very simple assembly. The modeler adds decals (Microscale # 60-891) couplers (Microtrains #1023 or 1025), stirrups (Gold Medal Models #160-56), and grabirons and diaphragms (if desired). The B60b was a uniquely PRR car with its balloon roof and porthole windows, but it was probably the most traveled railroad-owned passenger train car of the pre-Amtrak era. The B60b was regularly seen all across the vast PRR system. It also traveled throughout the United States as the Pennsy B60b's were regularly seen on western trains such as the Santa Fe's Fast Mail, on trains to Texas and Florida, and on New England trains to Boston, Maine, and Montreal. This is the first time this car has been produced in N Scale, and it will fill a large void for modelers of passenger trains of the PRR and other railroads. Hell Gate Models is a joint effort between Doug Nelson and Claus Schlund, both PRR N scale modelers living in the San Francisco area. Kits will be introduced for sale at the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society annual meeting, May 3-5 at the Radisson Penn Harris in Camp Hill, Pennsylvania. Kits will be available by mail after the meeting. Price: $26. for the standard version $28 for the messenger-equipped version Add $5 for shipping. California residents add 7% sales tax. To order direct, send and email message to: hellgatemodels@yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 16:15:47 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] Vehicle colors Does anyone have a clue what color PRR road vehicles -- like MOW trucks and tractors used for pulling trailers-- were painted in the early 1950s? Were there any markings on the doors, or what ever? [perhaps 5 gold pinstripes?] All the trucks I ever seen are in the background of B&W photos. Jim McDaniel, lost down in Delmarva, with lots of primer gray vehicles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 15:36:32 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] N Scale PRR B60b Baggage Car Announcement Jerry, You and Dennis Rockwell must be ecstatic! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 15:40:11 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Vehicle colors The color guide to PRR Freight & Passenger Equip shows a foto of a PRR gon carrying a PRR service truck (pre van days). Its painted in a freight car red color. Of course, its on it way to the scrap yard (the truck, not the gon) and the paint has certainly "weathered". Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== "James L. McDaniel" wrote: > > Does anyone have a clue what color PRR road vehicles -- like MOW trucks > and tractors used for pulling trailers-- were painted in the early > 1950s? > Were there any markings on the doors, or what ever? [perhaps 5 gold > pinstripes?] All the trucks I ever seen are in the background of B&W > photos. > > Jim McDaniel, lost down in Delmarva, with lots of primer gray vehicles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 13:48:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] Good books? Thanks for those who helped with the block signal colors! In the mean time I have found some new questions. Is there a good book that covers the other aspects of Pennsy railroading like: cars, special equipment for stations, platforms,... , buildings, uniforms, ... ? Is there also a book in which the Railway Express Agency activities are covered? Thanks, Geoffrey __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 18:04:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] New Activity on Cumberland Valley Branch In a message dated 4/1/2001 4:02:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > The City of Harrisburg has been trying to build a dam for years, using the > CV bridge as its base. As a erstwhile civil engineer, I can think of nothing quite so likely to be fiasco, as a dam built using bridge piers as part of the structure. Do you have any references to the construction which was/is intended??? Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 18:04:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] block signals In a message dated 4/1/2001 4:35:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, geoff_vandooren@yahoo.com writes: > the first wagon of the loaded MU > made a salto and landed on top of the second wagon "made a salto"? is that an acrobatic operation??? Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] New Activity on Cumberland Valley Branch Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 19:00:35 -0400 I'd second the comments of Derrick and Bruce. From all that I have read, the damn project is dead and the commuter rail is alive and funded. The Lancaster Intell report a week or so ago that Carlisle was a bit miffed at not getting any of the action. The commuter lines will apparently go from Elizabethtown to HBG utilizing the existing Amtrak line, and the Mechanicsburg to HBG section would use the old CV line and bridge. Equipment or operators did not get a mention in the article. My guess is that Amtrak will get the initial node - since they will require equipment that meets their criteria - to operate on the western end of their Harrisburg line. Maybe if we start a letter writing campaign now - we could get the new switch named "CP Lemo"? Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Home Page Rail Road Pages jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > The City of Harrisburg has been trying to build a dam for years, using the > CV bridge as its base. As a erstwhile civil engineer, I can think of nothing quite so likely to be fiasco, as a dam built using bridge piers as part of the structure. Do you have any references to the construction which was/is intended??? Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Vehicle colors Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 21:40:43 -0400 Jim:- The ones I recall in the mid-1960's when I was with PRR in Baltimore were Tuscan Red or PRR maroon. The ones I rememeber vividly were the fuel trucks used to refuel switch engines around Baltimore rather than have them use what is now the NE Corridor to get to the Orangeville enginehouse. They had a toluidene red and gold keystone on the door. And hazmat placard boards. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "James L. McDaniel" To: "PRR Talk" ; "PRR-FAX" Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 5:15 PM Subject: [PRR] Vehicle colors > Does anyone have a clue what color PRR road vehicles -- like MOW trucks > and tractors used for pulling trailers-- were painted in the early > 1950s? > Were there any markings on the doors, or what ever? [perhaps 5 gold > pinstripes?] All the trucks I ever seen are in the background of B&W > photos. > > Jim McDaniel, lost down in Delmarva, with lots of primer gray vehicles > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:11:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Vehicle colors In a message dated 4/2/01 3:32:20 PM Central Daylight Time, jlmcdaniel@esva.net writes: << Does anyone have a clue what color PRR road vehicles -- like MOW trucks and tractors used for pulling trailers-- were painted in the early 1950s? >> Don't recall the years covered, but the Keystone had a reasonable size article on the subject. Don't have the issue info handy, but maybe the index on Keystone Crossings would help. Which brings up an issue, not directed at you specifically, Jim, but many of the questions on this list could be eliminated by joining the Society. I realize some of the subjects were several years ago, but ya gotta start sometime! Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 20:46:08 -0700 From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: [PRR] Amtrak 14014 caboose Hi, There used to be a PRR #?/PC #?/CR #?/AMK/GETY 14014 Class N5 cabin car parked at the Gettysburg, PA, Depot. I'm told this cabin has been gone from the Depot for several years. Rumor says it left a year after the explosion but you know how rumors are! Does anyone know where it went? Also, does anyone know of a source for the Conrail to Amtrak caboose numbers? I wrote the Amtrak Historical Society with this same question on 2 occasions and did not receive an answer either time. Thanks, Roger -- S. Roger Kirkpatrick, 109 So. Madison St., Cortez, CO 81321-3733. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 00:23:42 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak 14014 caboose Sure no problem The Amtrak 14014 was the PRR 479701 it was actually a N-5F assigned to the Chesapeake Region in May 1957 equipted with trainphones and assigned to the Edgemoor Delmarva pool #6. It was renumbered to PC # 19017 on 4/29/68 and sold to Amtrak on 9/3/76. ---------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------H ope this helps Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 21:42:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Andrews Subject: [PRR] Green Frog Video Please forgive cross-posting. I find that I have 2 copies of Green Frog's "Conrail-Middle Division" video. This is a very nice 60 minute video and I consider it to be one of the best I own. If anyone out there has a video, book or HO equipment of approximately equivalent value ($20-$30 range) that they would like to swap for one of copies, please contact me offline at joeandrews1@yahoo.com Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 07:13:30 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Good books? Vic Rosemann has a very good book on the Railway Express Agency. Its a perfect-bound paperback and only costs about $12. It contains a lot of good pictures and info on their RR cars, highway equipment and operations. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Geoffrey Van Dooren wrote: > > Thanks for those who helped with the block signal > colors! > In the mean time I have found some new questions. > Is there a good book that covers the other aspects of > Pennsy railroading like: cars, special equipment for > stations, platforms,... , buildings, uniforms, ... ? > Is there also a book in which the Railway Express > Agency activities are covered? > Thanks, Geoffrey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 08:14:20 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Good books? From: Jerry Britton On 4/3/01 8:13 AM, Andy Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > Vic Rosemann has a very good book on the Railway Express Agency. Its a > perfect-bound paperback and only costs about $12. It contains a lot of > good pictures and info on their RR cars, highway equipment and > operations. > And it just went out of print this month. Highlands Station, the publisher, is sold out. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 08:45:31 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Vehicle colors Well Bob, I do belong to the PRRT&HS, but living in the boonies, it takes many weeks to get info by mail or interlibrary loan --like a back copy of the KEYSTONE. The net and lists like this can get me a quick answer and a point-in-the-right-direction to reliable info. And thanks to all who provided info on the subject. JimMcDaniel, a little less lost in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BNdave1@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:54:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] New Activity on Cumberland Valley Branch In a message dated 4/2/01 6:43:45 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << > As a erstwhile civil engineer, I can think of nothing quite so likely to be > fiasco, > as a dam built using bridge piers as part of the structure. Do you have any > references to the construction which was/is intended??? > Quite common and used elsewhere...inflatable dam between piers. >> Like where? Were the bridge piers designed to resist the resulting lateral loads (horizontal shear) and to provide an adequate FSOT (factor of safety against overturning)? Please provide locations and approximate ages. I would be very interested to see how this was done. BNDave, PE Structural Engineer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 12:59:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] New Activity on Cumberland Valley Branch From: Jerry Britton On 4/3/01 12:54 PM, BNdave1@aol.com (BNdave1@aol.com) wrote: > << > As a erstwhile civil engineer, I can think of nothing quite so likely to > be >> fiasco, >> as a dam built using bridge piers as part of the structure. Do you have > any >> references to the construction which was/is intended??? >> > Quite common and used elsewhere...inflatable dam between piers. >> > > Like where? Were the bridge piers designed to resist the resulting lateral > loads (horizontal shear) and to provide an adequate FSOT (factor of safety > against overturning)? Please provide locations and approximate ages. I > would be very interested to see how this was done. Over my head. All I can say is years ago, when they were pursuing it, the Harrisburg Patriot News indicated that the technology was in use elsewhere. However, this thread has swayed from our prescribed subject matter (dams, was CV branch) so let's drop it here. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmaster ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:31:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] New Activity on Cumberland Valley Branch On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, Jerry Britton wrote: > On 4/3/01 12:54 PM, BNdave1@aol.com (BNdave1@aol.com) wrote: > > > << > As a erstwhile civil engineer, I can think of nothing quite so likely to > > be > >> fiasco, > >> as a dam built using bridge piers as part of the structure. Do you have > > any > >> references to the construction which was/is intended??? > >> > > Quite common and used elsewhere...inflatable dam between piers. >> > > > > Like where? Were the bridge piers designed to resist the resulting lateral > > loads (horizontal shear) and to provide an adequate FSOT (factor of safety > > against overturning)? Please provide locations and approximate ages. I > > would be very interested to see how this was done. > > Over my head. All I can say is years ago, when they were pursuing it, the > Harrisburg Patriot News indicated that the technology was in use elsewhere. Not so much as to fly in the face of "desist" but to provide people who care with off-list venues to seek more information if they so care: -I assume this was Mayor Reed's baby, in which case the long term proposal was to be a permanent dam at the lower end of City Island, not against the bridge, and use it for hydroelectric purposes as well as recreational -But in the meantime there's already a permanent dam, if old, at Dock Street My suggestion if you care further would be to visit www.google.com and search for some combination of: harrisburg "city island" reed inflatable dam "dock street" A quick look reveals several promising hits. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 15:04:33 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Life Life GP9's and C-Liners From: Jerry Britton It's been a bit of a drought on modeling news, so "this just in"... Life Like Proto 2000 has announced a run of EMD GP9 Phase II's. There are three PRR road numbers. Limited run, retail is $100. Reserve at your favorite dealer now! Life Like has also finally announced a run of F-M "C-Liners". There are two PRR A/B sets, with both units powered. Limited run, retail is $130. Reserve at your favorite dealer now! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 15:50:49 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Vehicle colors From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Chuck Blardone wrote the Keystone article, if I remember correctly, when I was trying to model a PRR stake bed truck. I had to query him on what color the interiors of PRR vehicles was painted. The consensus was that it had a black interior. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: "James L. McDaniel" >To: PRR Talk , PRR-FAX >Subject: [PRR] Vehicle colors >Date: Mon, 02 Apr, 2001, 16:15 > > Does anyone have a clue what color PRR road vehicles -- like MOW trucks > and tractors used for pulling trailers-- were painted in the early > 1950s? > Were there any markings on the doors, or what ever? [perhaps 5 gold > pinstripes?] All the trucks I ever seen are in the background of B&W > photos. > > Jim McDaniel, lost down in Delmarva, with lots of primer gray vehicles > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 08:08:24 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] Re: [FC] new kit Al, While we have your attention, could I put a bug in your ear to consider doing PRR stock cars? I'm thinking of the K7 and K8s. The ever popular K9 and K11s, which Bowser has produced (from their X31 molds no doubt) are too modern for the many model RRers of the transition era. They appeared in the late 50's - long after stem was gone. The K7 and K8s were quite distinctive. The K8 had Pratt truss sides, unlike most car's Howe truss sides and the K7 with its "warren truss" sides was unique. There are no good stand ins for them in HO. westerfield wrote: > > Dave - I keep trying to get to it but things keep getting in the way. - Al > when the Vanderbilt hoppers will be ready to go? I really want > > one now that I know what they look like (there was a scratchbuilt > > O-scale model at the C&OHS meet last weekend). > > > > David Thompson > > > > > > > > -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 09:19:11 -0400 Subject: [PRR] BANKS to VIEW Track Charts From: Jerry Britton Anyone have track charts for the Middle Division, specifically BANKS to VIEW? I am trying to establish mileposts for the signal bridges...and where the distant signals were for VIEW and BANKS (vs. block signals). Helpful if it is mid-1950's era. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 18:53:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Cabin ? Lists, Quick dumb question that needs a Quick correct answer. On an N5 or N5b Class Cabin circa 1950's, did the End Doors have Knobs or Latch Handles? I know an N5c had a Latch Handles. TIA....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Make good on the promise you made at graduation to keep in touch. Classmates.com has over 14 million registered high school alumni--chances are you'll find your friends! http://us.click.yahoo.com/03IJGA/DMUCAA/4ihDAA/D5QVlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 18:53:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR Caboose ? Lists, Quick dumb question that needs a Quick correct answer. On an N5 or N5b Class Cabin circa 1950's, did the End Doors have Knobs or Latch Handles? I know an N5c had a Latch Handles. TIA....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 19:35:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] New PRR Terms Hello list. Well the answers are in from the PRR man and we did good ! Some question about " Drop " explanation would only work on a hill and " Scoop" meant the water scoop on a tender. At least as he knew the term. Here is the scoop on"Gunny" GUNNY is nickname for a drifter brakeman with a bag over his back that use to ride cars over the hump, etc. It was a very dangerous. He sent some more PRR terms to chew on. He also mentioned he worked the Enola yards at one time. If any list members have any questions about that part of the line I'd be glad to pass them on. NO 1 What is DROP called when its done on the level???? No 2 drill--- No 3 plug--- No 4 frog---Part of a switch. No 5 CLIMBERS--- No 6 chalk--- No 7 cut list--- No 8 temp stick--- No 9in the hole--- No 10 F4--- 10-4?? No 11 points--- movable part of switch No 12 apron--- No 12b? cut lever chain--- No 13 ALERATOR--- No 14 hanging bull rope--- NO 15 gauntlet--- Remember some of these are nick names or slang for something.----Mark L---------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 19:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Caboose ? I can look if PRR cabin car #477375 is the right class. found it over in NJ.on a service call. still has original paint and shadow keystone. I belive the doors were still on. Can any one ID this caboose. Also there was a PRR gas car there but I didn't right down the #. I was interested in the caboose.------Mark L-------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: [PRR] Set Up Running--An Opinion Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 22:57:16 -0500 SPF's-- If you don't have the book "Set Up Running" by John W. Orr, get it! This belongs on the shelf of every serious Pennsy fan. In case you haven't heard of it, it chronicles the career of a PRR engineman who worked for the Company from 1904 to 1949, written by the man's son. I am currently half way thru, and it is difficult to put down. It is a unique look at running the railroad 24 hours a day, 365 days a year--from the cab of steam locomotives. With his career spent in central Pennsylvania, this book is a must for any one modeling the Bald Eagle Branch, the Elmira Branch, or the Williamsport (later Susquehanna) Division. There is even a narrative of a typical run on Train 510 (Altoona to Harrisburg via Williamsport) picking up milk tank cars! And Elmira Branchers--did you know the grade north out of Roaring Branch was 3%--with a double S curve?!! Truly the land of Decapods. Interestingly, the subject of the book was chosen by the Engineering Department to do several informal over the road evaluations of different locomotives. He really loved the L1, and his report on one of the initial Decs was scathing, although he liked the later ones better. He also thought the tenders we think of as normal were much too small, severely limiting the efficient movement of trains. No surprise there. The book is written in an easygoing style with only a few b/w photos. Now if only I could smell the coal smoke, hot oil, and hot brake shoes........ Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 23:38:49 -0700 From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: [PRR] Class N-5? Hi, > > I can look if PRR cabin car #477375 is the right class. > The Ringoes, NJ, cabin car should be the correct Class. Roger -- S. Roger Kirkpatrick, 109 So. Madison St., Cortez, CO 81321-3733. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 10:14:21 EDT From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] keystone Reprints My Keystone reprints arrived yesterday for those who are looking for them. They certainly weren't up to the present standard but considering the original source are very well done. There is no color and the material appears to have been written on a typewriter. Most of the articles are about rolling stock and engines so it is valuable resource material including one entire issue on the X29 box car. Most are about 8-10 pages in length. One interesting fact I had not heard before is that the bells on the E44's came from steam engines. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 09:39:24 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] keystone Reprints The early Keystones were just like that - typewritten on non-glossy paper with a few B&W fotos. The fault is not in the reprinting. The virtue is in how far the Keystone has come. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > > My Keystone reprints arrived yesterday for those who are looking for them. They certainly weren't up to the present standard but considering the original source are very well done. There is no color and the material appears to have been written on a typewriter. Most of the articles are about rolling stock and engines so it is valuable resource material including one entire issue on the X29 box car. Most are about 8-10 pages in length. One interesting fact I had not heard before is that the bells on the E44's came from steam engines. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 11:10:25 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Subject: [PRR] Re: N Scale PRR B60b Baggage Car Announcement [PRR] Andy Miller wrote on 01/4/2 8:36 pm: >Jerry, > >You and Dennis Rockwell >must be ecstatic! I've already put in my order! Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 11:43:30 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Model Railroad Stoneworks Web Site From: Jerry Britton For those who may be interested, Model Railroad Stoneworks now has a web site online at http://www.modelrailroadstoneworks.com They make superb quality stone bridges based on PRR and Erie prototypes. Their current offerings are: PRR 30-Degree Angle Skewed Stone Arch Bridge -- HO scale PRR Semi-Circular High Stone Arch Viaduct -- HO and N scale PRR Rockville Bridge -- HO and N scale Erie Starrucca Viaduct -- HO scale You can regularly find MRS at the Timonium shows, plus they always attend the PRRT&HS convention. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 12:10:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] keystone Reprints In a message dated 4/5/01 9:23:01 AM Central Daylight Time, NDBPRR@aol.com writes: << it is valuable resource material including one entire issue on the X29 box car. >> Including some very good photos and info about the K8 stockcar. The reproduction job and paper quality on these reprints is very good, considering the original sources. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 12:48:02 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Life GP9's and C-Liners From: Jerry Britton On 4/5/01 12:44 PM, Jeff Warner (jwarner@ptd.net) wrote: > I think I have this straight, but if Jerry or someone else could verify it, > I'd appreciate it... The P2K GP9's are HO scale and P1K C-Liner A/B sets are > N scale? I thought LL already announced B unit only C-Liners in PRR in HO > scale (HO scale already has the A units from last year). > Jeff: I appreciate your need for third party confirmation. HO C-Liner A units shipped last year, with B units coming this May. The new announcement is N scale AB sets. The GP's are HO scale. As for third party confirmation, the Walthers site (New Products/Announced in April) lists the items I previously announced. However, they mistakenly have the N scale C-Liners under Freight Cars rather than Locomotives!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Caliciotti Jr." Subject: [PRR] Gas-electric Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 17:49:50 -0000 In the 1980's there was a Pennsy doodlebug being operated around Flemington or Ringoes NJ. Anyone know if it is still used or where it is? Sam _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 14:49:51 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Coal Dear List, Please forgive me for maybe being abit ignorant or for maybe digging up (no punn intended!) a subject that may have been beat to death already (compared to most on the list I'm still a newbie). . . but here we go. In so many words; where does the coal the PRR hauls come from ? I ask this because as I page through my colection of Pennsy books (and I think I've got just about all of them) I don't see any (or very few) pictures of coal tipples with PRR hoppers spoted under them. When I look through books on the C&O, N&W, Virginia etc. thats all I see. . . massive coal tipples loading home road hoppers and gons. In fact both C&O and N&W have whole books devoted to just that. Am I to belive all the coal moved by the PRR came from the lake ports? True I've seen countless pictures of tons of coal being off loaded by those wonderful hullets into PRR hoppers. . . but I find it had to believe all the coal the PRR moved came from this source. I ask this question as I want to model a tipple scene on my railroad, and would like to represent as close as possible a true Pennsy scene. Thanks in advance for any and all help on this mather. Jon S. PRRT&HS #3079 FRRM of PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 15:06:15 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal From: Jerry Britton On 4/5/01 2:49 PM, JONS6755@aol.com (JONS6755@aol.com) wrote: > Please forgive me for maybe being abit ignorant or for maybe digging > up (no punn intended!) a subject that may have been beat to death already > (compared to most on the list I'm still a newbie). . . but here we > go. We all gotta start somewhere! > In so many words; where does the coal the PRR hauls come from ? The ground! Actually, all over....even crossing paths! There were lots of mines east of Williamsport and Shamikin. A lot of this coal went south to Baltimore or north to Sodus Point via the Northern Central Branch/Elmira Branch. Then there were a ton of coal fields north and west of Tyrone on the Middle Division. Some of this went east on the Bald Eagle Branch to the Northern Central Branch/Elmira Branch to Sodus Point. Some probably just went east on the main line. Then there are tons more coal fields west and north of Cresson, at the height of the Allegheny Mountains. Coal coming off branches from Cresson flowed both east and west. Much to Pittsburgh for steel one might assume. > Am I to belive all the coal moved by the PRR came from the lake ports? True > I've seen countless pictures of tons of coal being off loaded by those > wonderful hullets into PRR hoppers. . . but I find it had to believe all the > coal the PRR moved came from this source. The Hullets you refer to handled iron ore. On the great lakes they received ore from the midwest. At Philadelphia they received ore from, I think, Venezuela. Hope this helps! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:34:54 -0400 Jerry and Jon: Don't forget there were huge coal deposits south of the Panhandle line in eastern Ohio, especially around Cadiz (PRR even had a Manager, Coal Sales, in Cadiz to call on the mines). A great deal of this coal moved to Ashtabula Harbor for Great Lakes movement. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: ; Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal > On 4/5/01 2:49 PM, JONS6755@aol.com (JONS6755@aol.com) wrote: > > > Please forgive me for maybe being abit ignorant or for maybe digging > > up (no punn intended!) a subject that may have been beat to death already > > (compared to most on the list I'm still a newbie). . . but here we > > go. > > We all gotta start somewhere! > > > In so many words; where does the coal the PRR hauls come from ? > > The ground! > > Actually, all over....even crossing paths! There were lots of mines east of > Williamsport and Shamikin. A lot of this coal went south to Baltimore or > north to Sodus Point via the Northern Central Branch/Elmira Branch. > > Then there were a ton of coal fields north and west of Tyrone on the Middle > Division. Some of this went east on the Bald Eagle Branch to the Northern > Central Branch/Elmira Branch to Sodus Point. Some probably just went east on > the main line. > > Then there are tons more coal fields west and north of Cresson, at the > height of the Allegheny Mountains. Coal coming off branches from Cresson > flowed both east and west. Much to Pittsburgh for steel one might assume. > > > Am I to belive all the coal moved by the PRR came from the lake ports? True > > I've seen countless pictures of tons of coal being off loaded by those > > wonderful hullets into PRR hoppers. . . but I find it had to believe all the > > coal the PRR moved came from this source. > > The Hullets you refer to handled iron ore. On the great lakes they received > ore from the midwest. At Philadelphia they received ore from, I think, > Venezuela. > > Hope this helps! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:46:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal In a message dated 4/5/01 2:23:30 PM Central Daylight Time, JONS6755@aol.com writes: << I ask this because as I page through my colection of Pennsy books (and I think I've got just about all of them) I don't see any (or very few) pictures of coal tipples with PRR hoppers spotted under them. >> Boy, you make a good point. Probably a result of 90% of all published PRR photos being taken on the mainline of the Middle Division or (for electrics) the New York division (just joshing, guys, don't reach for the flame throwers). Considering the number of online coal mines (the Summer, 1981, Pennsy Journal had a 1956 map and 8 pages alphabetical, 8 pages geographical of 600-700 bituminous coal mines on PRR and connecting lines in Pennsylvania and West Virginia), there is a dearth of tipple photos. For the guys that were there, were the mines sticklers for security and hostile to photographers,or just not convenient for Joe Railfan? <> The economics varied by the times, of course, but during a lot of the time period I believe the pattern was export coal, import ore. I have no statistics, just nonscientific observation and reading to back that up. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Renovo Shops Coming Down Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:50:17 -0400 Yesterday a friend and I detoured through Renovo PA on the way home from Altoona. I'm sorry to report that the Pennsylvania Railroad Shops in Renovo are being torn down. The blacksmith shop is gone - just a pile of brick rubble. A good bit of the power house has disappeared since my last visit a couple years ago. Not sure whether it was torn down or fell down, as the rubble has been removed. The demolition crew is working on the Master Mechanic's Office Building, one of the main buildings next to the tracks about mid-complex, and one of the earlier buildings built. They have gutted it and are ready to start demolishing the building itself. I have no idea whether all the buildings are slated for demolition or not. There was a sign proclaiming the site to be the Renovo Industrial Park, and there is a new building in the west end of the former yards - a metal building of about 30,000/40,000 square feet in size. No sign or indication of who might be occupying it. Perhaps it's still under construction and they are finishing the inside. Anyone have any more details? Sad to see such a landmark fall after so many years. I guess our model railroads will have to preserve it for future generations. I'm sure glad I photographed the entire complex inside and out a couple years ago! The demolition crews will have their work cut out for them, as the blacksmith shop was several bricks thick, as are many of the other buildings. Pennsy built them to last! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. & downtown Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:59:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal In a message dated 4/5/01 2:34:47 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << On the great lakes they received ore from the midwest. At Philadelphia they received ore from, I think, Venezuela. >> I used the terms export coal and import ore. I should have clarified, as Jerry indicates, some of the"export" and "import" was to/from other ports on the Great Lakes. Always a little frustrating to me as a modeler of the Chicago Division, because, though I don't know it for sure, I believe the huge mills around Gary, Indiana, got most of their material by boat. Not much excuse for strings of GL, H21, and H25 hoppers. OTOH, great territory for gondolas and there was the bottle train! Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 16:03:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal And I forgot to mention all those strings of L&N, C&O, and N&W hoppers that traveled South-North on the Pennsy! (Rick Tipton, you out there? :-)) Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 13:41:34 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal Two things regarding coal: A map, showing Pennsylvania coal fields: http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deputate/minres/bmr/ annualreport99/coal_mine_map.htm (Sorry the URL is so long. It wouldn't fit on one line.) Second, a thought, regarding security: For quite a few years in the late 19th century, Western Pa. "enjoyed" the attentions of an organization called The Coal and Iron Police. It is easy to become emotional on the subject, and as a result I'm not sure who to believe. The term "private army" has been used to describe their operations. To be flip about it, "Were the coal mining companies security conscious? You'd better believe it." All quite legal, though, as the C&I Police were simply "watchmen employed to guard the premises of the several mining and manufacturing companies whose fees support the service". Not that an 1880's era railfan would be likely to have a camera, but by the time the average Joe could afford a camera, there was a long-standing tradition of just not going certain places. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 17:08:06 -0400 From: Steve Hanlon Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal At 03:46 PM 4/5/01 EDT, Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > For the guys that were there, were the mines sticklers for security and hostile to photographers,or just >not convenient for Joe Railfan? what would you rather take pictures of, many many many trains in a few hours or a guy switching out a coal tipple? -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 17:39:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" A lot of coal came from the Champion mines west of Pittsburgh in the Imperial region. It was loaded in Montour hoppers and sent east. Couple of years ago I ran into a guy at the Galveston RR Museum who told me he saw a lot of Montour hoppers go by on the Pennsy. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: JONS6755@aol.com >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] PRR Coal >Date: Thu, 05 Apr, 2001, 13:49 > > Dear List, > Please forgive me for maybe being abit ignorant or for maybe digging > up (no punn intended!) a subject that may have been beat to death already > (compared to most on the list I'm still a newbie). . . but here we > go. > In so many words; where does the coal the PRR hauls come from ? > I ask this because as I page through my colection of Pennsy books > (and I think I've got just about all of them) I don't see any (or very few) > pictures of coal tipples with PRR hoppers spoted under them. When I look > through books on the C&O, N&W, Virginia etc. thats all I see. . . massive > coal tipples loading home road hoppers and gons. In fact both > C&O and N&W have whole books devoted to just that. > Am I to belive all the coal moved by the PRR came from the lake ports? True > I've seen countless pictures of tons of coal being off loaded by those > wonderful hullets into PRR hoppers. . . but I find it had to believe all the > coal the PRR moved came from this source. I ask this question as I want to > model a tipple scene on my railroad, and would like to represent as close as > possible a true Pennsy scene. > Thanks in advance for any and all help on this mather. > Jon S. > PRRT&HS #3079 > FRRM of PA > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 17:57:46 EDT From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] PRR heavy duty flats I just found a web site run by a person by the name of Tim Daspit that specializes in heavy duty flats and Schnabel cars. The URL is http://www.garlic.com/~tomd/ It shows pictures of many schnabel cars and has a heavy duty flat page with a couple of pictures of the PRR car on four eight wheel trucks that was written up in the Keystone a couple of issues ago. Apparently the car is now in Altoona at the riailroad museum. There is a picture of it plus a picture of a model of the well hole flat the PRR had. All in all a very graphically intense and interesting site. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 19:06:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Gas-electric Yes the PRR gas car I saw is in Ringoes NJ. Same place as the PRR cabin car #477375 is. Its an N5 something. It has square windows. Anyone know??? ----------Mark L-------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 19:47:38 -0500 From: John W Rosenbauer Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal Link to a map of H.C.Frick mines in Westmoreland and Fayette counties. As near as I can tell none of these mines are working but they were from the 1890s to 1940s. Many if not most were served by the PRR. http://theoldminer.virtualave.net/frick1.html John W Rosenbauer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Gas-electric Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 21:27:10 -0400 List: I do recall that the motor car was at one time owned by Nelson Bowers, who was the Communications and Signals Engineer for the Chesapeake Region when I worked in Baltimore for the PRR. He later became affiliated with the Black River & Western and that is no doubt how the car ended up in Ringoes. This was all around 30 years ago. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Lehman" To: "Sam Caliciotti Jr." ; Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:06 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Gas-electric > Yes the PRR gas car I saw is in Ringoes NJ. Same place as the PRR > cabin car #477375 is. Its an N5 something. It has square windows. Anyone > know??? > ----------Mark L-------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 21:25:51 -0500 From: Kevin Trichtinger Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Coal "Donald E. Harper, Jr" wrote: > > A lot of coal came from the Champion mines west of Pittsburgh in the > Imperial region. It was loaded in Montour hoppers and sent east. Couple of > years ago I ran into a guy at the Galveston RR Museum who told me he saw a > lot of Montour hoppers go by on the Pennsy. I remember seeing long strings of PRR and Montour hoppers on the Chartiers Branch (which was actually the Washington Secondary by that time) headed to and from the interchange at Hills Station. There were still a few coal mines operating on the PRR line as well, though all were closed by 1970. The last of the Montour mines closed in the early 80s. Every once in a while, you'd see Montour SW-9 power running through, too. The Montour weighed at least some of its coal at Scully. As for the original issue, the Pennsy carried a lot of coal from the area south and west of Pittsburgh. The Monongahela Division, the Burgettstown Branch and the Chartiers Branch were all major originators of coal tonnage. In the 1890s, there were eight coal mines on the PRR Chartiers Branch in the two miles of the line in Scott Township alone. In the 1920s, there were 25 mines on the Chartiers and B&M Branches, plus interchange coal from the Montour, the Pittsburgh, Chartiers & Youghiogheny and the Pittsburgh & West Virginia. The few photos of these mines which exist mostly feature the mine as a backdrop to another scene. Photography was a rare and expensive pursuit at the turn of the last century, and the people who lived around here were miners and mill workers, unlikely to have the time or the money for such pursuits. Anyway, most of the tipples in the Chartiers Valley were at least partially visible from a distance, but were well guarded, with little to no public access. With the topography of the area, and the concentration of industrial property along the tracks, there was little in the way of good photo possibilities. I think that holds true of the PRR in Pittsburgh in general. Peace Kevin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 23:15:42 -0500 From: bobp@tsc.com (Bob Poortinga) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal "Bob Zoeller" writes: > Always a little frustrating to me as a modeler of the > Chicago Division, because, though I don't know it for sure, I believe the > huge mills around Gary, Indiana, got most of their material by boat. The mills in Gary/East Chicago received most of their ore (and another important ingredient in iron making, limestone) by boat. However, little, if any, coal was shipped was boat. Coal for USS Gary Works was hauled by the PRR on both the PFW&C (delivered to the EJ&E at Clarke yard) and the Pan Handle (delivered to the EJ&E at Hartsdale) with the bulk going via Hartsdale. Other railroads hauling coal to Gary Works included the B&O via Curtis yard, the Nickel Plate (N&W) via Van Loon, the C&O via Griffith, the Monon via Dyer, the NYC via Pine yard and via Hartsdale (CCC&StL Danville branch), the C&EI via Chicago Heights, the IC via Mattoon, and the GM&O via Joliet. This coal originated in various locales such as southern Illinois, southern Indiana, and eastern Kentucky. It is also quite possilbe that coal from southeastern Ohio, western Pennsylvania, and West Virginia found its way to Gary. Let's not forget that prior to 1930, most of the demand for coal from the anthracite regions of eastern Pennsylvania was for heating in the urban areas of the eastern seaboard. -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Bloomington, Indiana US ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 01:19:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] REA Good books? In a message dated 4/3/01 8:19:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: Re: REA Book- << And it just went out of print this month. Highlands Station, the publisher, is sold out. >> They had been selling seconds, direct, at a reduced price - through an add in Model Railroading Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bud Kaiser" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Caboose ? Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 08:46:19 -0400 Gary, I purchased a great photo of an N5b cabin at the last Phila. Chapter PRRT&HS meeting that shows the door knob clearly. The photo is dated 1941 and shows an end view of the cabin in great detail. There is also an overhead that shows the metal roofwalk of the N5b. The car number, as best as I can tell from the overhead, is 477635, although the "6" could be an "8". The cabin looks very clean, almost new, or recently outshopped. Train phones had not been installed. I have not done any other research on the car. Bud Kaiser > Gary wrote > > Quick dumb question that needs a Quick correct answer. On an N5 or > N5b Class Cabin circa 1950's, did the End Doors have Knobs or Latch > Handles? I know an N5c had a Latch Handles. TIA....Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 09:14:04 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Coal Part II Thanks to all who have replied to my posting regarding PRR coal and mine tipples. I guess the overall answer is that there are no photos out there of these tipples. . . which is a shame. If anyone knows of, or comes across a source of pictures of tipples served by the Pennsy please get back at me. Again, thanks for the help. Jon S. PRRT&HS #3079 FRRM of PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 09:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Caboose ? Bud, Thanks for that note. Evidently the N5b class was built with regular door knobs than switched over to latch handles. Another thing you mentioned. You said this photo you have is of about 1941? This N5b has a metal roof walk at this early date? Again I thaught this was a feature added later. Were these not built with wood board roof walks? We need a Caboose expert to add to this.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 09:42:46 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Northern Central Chapter Meeting This Sunday - 4/8 From: Jerry Britton Sorry for the late notice... This Sunday the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS will meet at 1:30 p.m. at the Yorktowne Hotel in York, PA. This meeting will be dedicated to advances in model railroad control: Bill Lewis will be demonstrating wireless control of traditional DC equipment. Yours truly will be demonstrating the capabilities of DCC, in general terms. The actual equipment to be used will be the new Digitrax Chief II Radio Equipped system. On display will be the new Life Like N scale FA1/FB1 and Athearn Genesis HO scale F7A/F7B. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Witcofsky" Subject: Re: [PRR] Gas-electric Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 10:29:15 -0400 List: During the early '70's, the 4666 was owned by the late Hugh Jenkins, a former Reading Co. engineer, and noted railfan/ collector. Under his ownership, the car was based at New Hope, Pa. (Pre Jimmy Mc Hugh New Hope and Ivyland). I had the pleasure of operating this car between new Hope and Buckingham during this period, as a member of the 717th. Railway Operating Bn., which at this time had an arrangement with the NH&I to use the railroad for training one weekend per month. I was not aware of Nelson Bowers ownership, but all of Hugh Jenkins' assets were liquidated after his death. The car was at Ringoes in 1986. Joe Witcofsky ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BlockTruck@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 10:36:09 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 paint color I have seen MP-54's with the steps Tuscan inside and out, and I have seen them with the steps with Tuscan inside and DGLE or black outside. I say DGLE or black because once you got a little road dust on them, it was hard to tell. JT Roberts Gen. Foreman, Powelton Ave. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Coal Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 11:28:03 -0400 Regarding coal and iron ore at the lakes. PRR coal went to the lakes to be dumped and loaded on to lake boats. The U.S. is not an importer of coal. Iron ore came from lake boats (a.k.a. ex-lake ore) and was loaded in cars for shipment to the various iron and steel mills. Some ex-lake ore was temporarily placed in ground storage at the dock for subsequent reshipment to the mills. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 11:51:49 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal Part II Greetings to Jon and the List: The 1942 Grif Teller PRR calendar painting "Partners in National Defense" shows the Berwind-White Coal Mining Co. tipple at St. Michael, Pa. The original research photo he took, and used as the basis for the painting, appears in the book Crossroads of Commerce, p. 112. Visible in the photo are an H-class engine with Lines West tender, an N6b cabin, and a Berwind-White twin hopper. While Grif took some artistic license in moving the four-track main line down the South Fork Branch a few miles, he painted the mine buildings almost exactly as they appear in the photo. You can probably take the coloration of buildings in the painting as being reasonably close to the original. Hope this helps. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@worldnet.att.net Titus 3:5 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 11:55:07 -0700 From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: [PRR] RDG 92891, RR, PA Hi, I recently saw a photo of RDG 92891 caboose, which I don't list anywhere, along with PRR 477707 at Railroad, PA, which I list in New Freedom, PA. Does anyone know if the #92891 is still in Railroad or, if not, where it is? How about PRR 477707? Thanks, Roger -- S. Roger Kirkpatrick, 109 So. Madison St., Cortez, CO 81321-3733. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 15:08:35 EDT Subject: [PRR] C & P Docks Had an "off list" inquiry about the Cleveland coal dock - I told the guy what I remembered, but he asked about a site with photos - Any help? Some of the questions he asked indicated, to me, that he had the coal and ore operations "mixed" Quite an interesting mix "outbound" coal east of the Cuyahoga River "Inbound" ore on the west side (Whiskey Island) which stopped being an Island when the Railroads filled in the old channell, an underground salt mine - with lots of covered hopper traffic in the mix - with the Pennsy operations all on the "wrong" side of the NYC (LS&MS) - and using trackage rights - over bridge # 1 - in the middle. If you ever wanted to run PRR freights on the same tracks as the 20th Century Limited - this was the right spot! Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] C & P Docks Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 16:42:47 -0400 Dick: Didn't the 20th Century Limited use the CUT tracks through town and not the LS&MS tracks? Gregg Mahlkov (worked for PRR in Cleveland in 1964) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 3:08 PM Subject: [PRR] C & P Docks > Had an "off list" inquiry about the Cleveland coal dock - I told the guy what > I remembered, but he asked about a site with photos - Any help? > Some of the questions he asked indicated, to me, that he had the coal and ore > operations "mixed" > Quite an interesting mix "outbound" coal east of the Cuyahoga River > "Inbound" ore on the west side (Whiskey Island) which stopped being an Island > when the Railroads filled in the old channell, an underground salt mine - > with lots of covered hopper traffic in the mix - with the Pennsy operations > all on the "wrong" side of the NYC (LS&MS) - and using trackage rights - over > bridge # 1 - in the middle. If you ever wanted to run PRR freights on the > same tracks as the 20th Century Limited - this was the right spot! > Dick Ross > Cleveland > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 16:44:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Clement Car on the move From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" A UP duo, #1618 and #2159, showed up at the Galveston Railroad Museum at 1330 this afternoon, coupled to the PRR Clement Car (#7507) and hauled it off. The car has been sold back to the Clement family, specifically James Clement, grandson of PRR President Martin W. Clement, who plans on having it moved to Kingsville and restored. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] C & P Docks Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 18:17:37 -0400 There's a b&w photo of the docks as part of a 1957 directors tour booklet on my site... http://prr.railfan.net/documents/DirectorsTour.html It's on page 17 of the booklet. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > VVA249@aol.com > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 3:09 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] C & P Docks > > > Had an "off list" inquiry about the Cleveland coal dock - I told > the guy what > I remembered, but he asked about a site with photos - Any help? > Some of the questions he asked indicated, to me, that he had the > coal and ore > operations "mixed" > Quite an interesting mix "outbound" coal east of the Cuyahoga River > "Inbound" ore on the west side (Whiskey Island) which stopped > being an Island > when the Railroads filled in the old channell, an underground salt mine - > with lots of covered hopper traffic in the mix - with the Pennsy > operations > all on the "wrong" side of the NYC (LS&MS) - and using trackage > rights - over > bridge # 1 - in the middle. If you ever wanted to run PRR freights on the > same tracks as the 20th Century Limited - this was the right spot! > Dick Ross > Cleveland > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 18:28:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] NYC 20th Century and the C & P Docks In a message dated 4/6/01 4:58:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: << Didn't the 20th Century Limited use the CUT tracks through town and not the LS&MS tracks? >> Good question - I'm not 100% certain. It didn't stop in Cleveland and the CUT would have required two loco changes (Steam/electric & back) - I am almost certain that it bypassed the terminal - but it may have used the "short Line" across the south end of town - I've had people claim that they had or had seen photos of the Dreyfuss train in Lakewood on the NKP ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC 20th Century and the C & P Docks Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 22:08:07 -0400 << Didn't the 20th Century Limited use the CUT tracks through town and not the LS&MS tracks? >> Good question - I'm not 100% certain. I also don't recall for certain but believe the 20th Century Limited did NOT make a Cleveland stop. I DO recall stopping myself one evening on a back street in Berea, OH as the 20th Century was easing past the eastbound home signal at BEREA interlocking. A local resident came out of his house and inquired as to whether something was wrong. I thanked him for his concern and told him that absolutely nothing was wrong--that I was just watching the 20th Century Limited. Poor fellow walked away with a rather odd expression... obviously he lived too close the forest to enjoy the trees! Terry Stuart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 23:27:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC 20th Century in Cleveland In a message dated 4/6/2001 6:23:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, tstuart@forcomm.net writes: << I also don't recall for certain but believe the 20th Century Limited did NOT make a Cleveland stop. >> The December 1958 Official Guide shows neither Trains 25 nor 26 (the east and westbound Centuries) stopping in Cleveland. Just the sort of oversight one would expect from a lesser road like the NYC. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal Part II Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 22:45:33 -0500 Jon--In Don Ball's "The Pennsylvania Railroad 1940's - 1950's" on page 114 there are two shots of the Glen Burn Colliery in Shamokin. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 00:41:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC 20th Century and the C & P Docks I inquired of my NYC fan friends tonight - all confirmed that the steam era "Century" used the LS&MS tracks through Cleveland along the Lakeshore. They added that the train may have swapped (steam) locos at Collinwood, east of Cleveland - but did not stop in Cleveland until coaches were added - very late in the life of the train. Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Caboose ? Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 00:06:13 -0500 Hi Gary--According to Ed Martin, writing in Mainline Modeler December 1995 in "Detailing a Pennsy N5/N5b Cabin Car", the N5b was built new with the metal roofwalk. The N5c also had the metal roofwalk when new; these were built starting in March 1942 so a 1941 date on the N5b photo is within reason. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 07:58:33 -0500 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC 20th Century in Cleveland It was not an oversight, By not having to stop in Cleveland they saved enough time on the "Water Level" to just match the PRR's march across the mountains!!! LeeRainey@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 4/6/2001 6:23:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, > tstuart@forcomm.net writes: > > << I also don't recall for certain but believe the 20th Century Limited did > NOT > make a Cleveland stop. >> > > The December 1958 Official Guide shows neither Trains 25 nor 26 (the east and > westbound Centuries) stopping in Cleveland. Just the sort of oversight one > would expect from a lesser road like the NYC. > > Lee Rainey > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 07:27:21 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: [PRR] Walthers PD Box Cars I am looking for about six of the Walthers (ex T-M) plug door box cars - either kit or built. Road name is not important and undec. kits would be great. If you have any of these cars you would like to dispose of, please contact me directly. Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 09:22:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC 20th Century in Cleveland In a message dated 4/7/01 8:03:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net writes: << By not having to stop in Cleveland they saved enough time on the "Water Level" to just match the PRR's march across the mountains!!! >> Although I live here - I don't think the "non-stop" was ever an issue. Not only would the train would have passed in the middle of the night, The train predated the Union Terminal; there would have been a major addition to the mileage to divert via the CUT (Cleveland Union Terminal) and, as stated, a double loco swap; steam to electric and back to steam. Only today does Amtrack stop on the lakefront (near the Cleveland Browns Stadium) on the LS&MS line: the Terminal in now an "Updcale" shopping experience and running trains through there would be quite costly - even if it's still physically possible Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 09:25:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Caboose ? In a message dated 4/7/01 1:15:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, steveh@dotstar.net writes: << a 1941 date on the N5b photo is within reason. >> Ada Ohio has an N-5b on display # 477777, build date 10/41 Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] C&P Docks Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 14:19:30 -0400 Rob, et al., Nice production. However, the photo on page 17 (see below) is the Whiskey Island ore dock (which is even stated in the photo caption) and not the coal dock as stated in your table of contents. Al ===================== Subject: RE: [PRR] C & P Docks From: "Rob Schoenberg" <> Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 18:17:37 -0400 There's a b&w photo of the docks as part of a 1957 directors tour booklet on my site... http://prr.railfan.net/documents/DirectorsTour.html It's on page 17 of the booklet. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 21:14:30 -0400 From: David Pfeiffer Subject: [PRR] Bachman K4 I noticed in the Caboose Hobbies ad in the May RMC that they mention a new supply of Bachmann K4's have "new tooling". Anyone know what the new tooling is? These are advertised to be pre-war versions, so it could be the tooling of parts to make them pre-war in appearance. Dave Pfeiffer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 22:18:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] AS-16 help needed I am detailing an S scale AS-16 (aka Alco Rs-3). I have two questions. 1. Are there any published drawings of the trainphone antenna for this class? I have good pictures -- probably good enough -- but would be more comfortable with drawings. 2. I find many photos of the front of the long hood, but none of the end of the short hood. The front of the long hood has grab irons leading to the top of the carbody. Were there similar grabs on the short hood? Many thanks for any help. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 22:16:44 -0400 From: "Michael A. Hmel" Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC 20th Century in Cleveland > would expect from a lesser road like the NYC Can't agree more . To leave out a stop in Cleveland weather or not it saved time is stupid . NYC was too interested in the race , they should have been interested in the result . That was there oversight ! Mah ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 09:22:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachman K4 From: Jerry Britton On 4/7/01 9:14 PM, David Pfeiffer at (dpfeiffr@popmail.voicenet.com) wrote: > I noticed in the Caboose Hobbies ad in the May RMC that they mention a new > supply of Bachmann K4's have "new tooling". Anyone know what the new > tooling is? These are advertised to be pre-war versions, so it could be > the tooling of parts to make them pre-war in appearance. > Yes, two new road numbers of the Bachmann Spectrum K-4 were announced last fall, to arrive this spring. They are pre-war, where the others were post-war. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 07:59:18 -0600 From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: [PRR] Ada, OH, cabin car Dick & Listers, > > Ada Ohio has an N-5b on display # 477777, build date 10/41 > I visited the Ada, OH, cabin car 5 or 6 years ago and I think it was already painted in the PRR scheme and I wrote down #477779 which would be ex-PC/CR 22834. I think PRR 477777 would be ex-PC 22963/CR 20057. One of us, probably me, wrote down the wrong number. I hate it when I do that! Cheers, Roger -- S. Roger Kirkpatrick, 109 So. Madison St., Cortez, CO 81321-3733. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Andy Miller Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 11:23:40 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: The B70b question Steve, We'll make a Pennsy fan out of you yet ;-) Its all right. "Some of my best friends are SF fans". About the B70s, I don't think its that easy. Yes, a lot of Bagg-Mail combines were converted to baggage cars (and leased to REA) when the mail business started to die. But Rob's site shows that none of those were converted to Horse express cars. I believe the horse transport business died long before the mail business. It is possible that the proliferation of BM70 converts is what confused the authors and caption writers of PPIII, causing that strange statement under the picture of HAVER DE GRACE. HAVER DE GRACE is clearly a B70a with an end door - the kind the PRR built as scenery cars (theatrical scenery, not model RR scenery). Its name, however, indicates that it was converted for Horse express service. The photo is also very old (note it is lettered fro the "American Railway Express Company" not the "Railway Express Agency"). The Horse cars were otherwise all B74bs (four feet longer) and all had three doors. Until I know otherwise, I will continue to believe that no B74b ever had 2 doors and that the caption in PPIII under the photo of HAVER DE GRACE is just wrong. I believe that HAVER DE GRACE is a B70 and a one-of-a-kind conversion. I keep hoping that some of the "experts" on the various PRR lists will someday pop up with facts regarding the enigma. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== > Steve Sandifer wrote: > > Well, I have solved the mystery. Go to > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=bagg&sz=sm&fr=ge > and you will find diagrams of PRR baggage cars. You will find that > there were 6 different B70b plans, some 2 door, some three door, with > differing door widths, all converted from other cars. So this seems to > be a catch all designation for cars upgraded at some time. > > -------------------- > J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer > mailto:steve.sandifer@swcentral.org > Home: 12027 Mulholland Dr., Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918 > Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, > TX 77025, 713-667-9417 > Personal: http://www.flash.net/~jssand/Home.html > Church: http://www.swcentral.org > Railway: http://www.trainweb.org/jssand -- "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 11:23:40 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] Re: The B70b question Steve, We'll make a Pennsy fan out of you yet ;-) Its all right. "Some of my best friends are SF fans". About the B70s, I don't think its that easy. Yes, a lot of Bagg-Mail combines were converted to baggage cars (and leased to REA) when the mail business started to die. But Rob's site shows that none of those were converted to Horse express cars. I believe the horse transport business died long before the mail business. It is possible that the proliferation of BM70 converts is what confused the authors and caption writers of PPIII, causing that strange statement under the picture of HAVER DE GRACE. HAVER DE GRACE is clearly a B70a with an end door - the kind the PRR built as scenery cars (theatrical scenery, not model RR scenery). Its name, however, indicates that it was converted for Horse express service. The photo is also very old (note it is lettered fro the "American Railway Express Company" not the "Railway Express Agency"). The Horse cars were otherwise all B74bs (four feet longer) and all had three doors. Until I know otherwise, I will continue to believe that no B74b ever had 2 doors and that the caption in PPIII under the photo of HAVER DE GRACE is just wrong. I believe that HAVER DE GRACE is a B70 and a one-of-a-kind conversion. I keep hoping that some of the "experts" on the various PRR lists will someday pop up with facts regarding the enigma. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== > Steve Sandifer wrote: > > Well, I have solved the mystery. Go to > http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?sel=bagg&sz=sm&fr=ge > and you will find diagrams of PRR baggage cars. You will find that > there were 6 different B70b plans, some 2 door, some three door, with > differing door widths, all converted from other cars. So this seems to > be a catch all designation for cars upgraded at some time. > > -------------------- > J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer > mailto:steve.sandifer@swcentral.org > Home: 12027 Mulholland Dr., Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918 > Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, > TX 77025, 713-667-9417 > Personal: http://www.flash.net/~jssand/Home.html > Church: http://www.swcentral.org > Railway: http://www.trainweb.org/jssand -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bud Kaiser" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Caboose ? Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 12:53:39 -0400 Gary, Steve, and all, As a follow-up to Gary's original question, I also referred to Ed Martin's article as I had build one per his instructions. I also referred to the N5b drawing that J. Harold Geissel had done in the November, 1968, Model Railroader. He stated, in the short accompanying text, that when N5a Cabins were equipped for Train Phones in 1940, they were re-classified as N5b. If this were true, then that would explain the wooden roof walks on some of the N5b Cabins. All photos of N5b cabins that I have seen with 1941 build dates have the metal roof walks. Bud Kaiser > Hi Gary--According to Ed Martin, writing in Mainline Modeler December 1995 > in "Detailing a Pennsy N5/N5b Cabin Car", the N5b was built new with the > metal roofwalk. > > The N5c also had the metal roofwalk when new; these were built starting in > March 1942 so a 1941 date on the N5b photo is within reason. > > Steve Hoxie > Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 14:00:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Caboose ? Bud, This is getting interesting! The reason I asked about N5 or N5b details is that I am scratch building one in G Scale to go along with my G Scale F3's I have super detailed. As a guide I started using a Brass US Hobbies O Scale PRR N5 or N5b, not sure which it represents. Then I started using my HO Scale Alpha Models N5b for measurments because it appeaered to have better detailing. The 2 models vary slightly in overall dimensions but are close enough for me. As of now I have the body shell nearly complete. It is constructed of sheet Styrene and brass end posts etc. About 900 rivit heads need placed now. There was at one point I referred to the book "Cabin Cars of the Pennsylvania and Long Island Railroads" for more help. There is a plan in there I used for specific detailing. Especially the Roof Walks. The N5b plans show wood roof walks. The actual photos of N5b's in this book appear to have metal walks. So I am starting to assume this plan is not correct. I also spotted another booboo on the plan. The plan shows 4 ladder rungs. Again photos show 5 rungs.This is interesting because both my Brass Models have wood roof walks and 4 ladder rungs. Seems both importers used bogus plans? Goes to show you, model from pics rather than plans. I now have to decide if I should keep the wood walkway (already attached) and if I should add an additional ladder rung. If your info you got from MR is correct that N5a's were converted to N5b's and retained wooden walkways, I will keep them on mine as well. What I need to see is photo proof of an N5b with wood roof walk. If not then my model will be an N5 circa 1950.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 12:01:15 -0600 From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: [PRR] PRR 477813 cabin car Hi, During the past 12 months PRR 477813 cabin car has been reported in Altoona and Tyrone, PA. It is possible that it was in one of these locations and moved to the other within the year or that one of the reports is erroneous. One reporter says he has a 9/4/00 photo of it in Tyrone. Where is PRR 477813? Thanks, Roger -- S. Roger Kirkpatrick, 109 So. Madison St., Cortez, CO 81321-3733. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] Want to Run a PRR steam locomotive?/643's 100th Birthday Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 14:19:02 -0400 Hey Folks: I’m a member of the Williams Grove Historical Steam Engine Association, and I just thought that the PRR Talk list might be interested to know that our steam locomotive, ex-PRR B4a #643 will be turning 100 years old this June! In celebrating we have some activities going on in June (the month she was built). Included in our activities in June are our ever-popular steam locomotive engineer classes. This program allows members of the general public a chance to run 643. For more information go to www.williamsgrovesteam.org and go to the section on running a steam locomotive, or the section on the 100th birthday, for more details! Also, if anyone has any comments on the website please let me know at prr643@usa.net . The website is very new (we just put it up last fall) and I’m the admin, so I’m always looking for comments and/or constructive criticism to make the site better! Tom von Trott ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Caboose ? Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 14:49:56 -0500 Bud and Gary--The Keystone, December, 1973, cabin cars article by Robert Johnson and Gary Rauch states that N5a was a conversion from N5 incorporating a Duryea cushion underframe and lists only four cars which were still N5a in 1957. They explicitly state, "Class N5b was built new (not rebuilt from N5) starting in 1941." I do not know if any of the four N5a's actually got trainphones. Not all of the N5b's did. I believe Mr. Geissel was in error in his 1968 text. Gary, make it an N5. Keep the wood roofwalk, add the ladder rung, but use an N5 photo when you get to the grabs and tool box; there were differences with the N5b. And no trainphone antenna on an N5. Also with an N5 you have the option of building the "crash bars" on the ends; in 1950 there were still a few around without them. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] AS-16 help needed Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 15:03:25 -0500 Lee--Can't help with the drawings, but there is a photo that shows the short end of 8842 very well in Pennsy Diesel Years, Vol. 4, page 89. Grab irons on both ends. Steve Hoxie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 16:20:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Caboose ? Steve, Decisions, Decisions. Man I wish I wasn't as far as I am on this Caboose. I have more N5b features incorporated than those found on a plain N5 Class. I have constructed Collision Posts (already insalled), placed the side curved railings in their position (higher mount than Class N5) as well as the end railings, I fabricated a Radio Battery Box (already mounted) for Antenna equiped version Cabin. (Those antenna masts will be resin castings like those I made for my F3 detail parts). So you can see I am closer to an N5b. It looks like I will replace the wood roof walks, damn! with metal grateing walks. It won't be too difficult removing the ladder rungs and repositioning them with a fifth. So work now continues!.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 17:16:28 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] AS-16 help needed In a message dated 4/8/2001 1:25:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, steveh@dotstar.net writes: << Lee--Can't help with the drawings, but there is a photo that shows the short end of 8842 very well in Pennsy Diesel Years, Vol. 4, page 89. Grab irons on both ends. Steve Hoxie >> Bummer! I finished up the long-hood end -- a somewhat finicky job -- and was hoping I was done with grab irons! Many thanks for the lead. I have the Diesel Years series but missed that photo some how. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 19:39:16 EDT Subject: [PRR] X-23 For the person/persons requesting info on existant X-23 box cars, l just recieved the Annual Report of the Northern Ohio Railway Museum - They own a car which carried MOW # 499369. The car has been moved inside and plans are to restore it to 1940's MOW appearance (since the car has side windows and end doors) A photo is available at: http://www.trainweb.org/norm (home page) to go direct to the photo: http://www.trainweb.org/norm/roster/prrbox_499369.htm Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 19:38:32 -0400 From: David Pfeiffer Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachman K4 Thanks for the BACH-MAN suggestion. I sent an inquiry, and I'll post the response. Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2001 23:55:26 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] AS-16 help needed In a message LeeRainey@aol.com writes: << I am detailing an S scale AS-16 (AKA ALCO RS3). I have two questions. 1. Are there any published drawings of the trainphone antenna for this class? I have good pictures -- probably good enough -- but would be more comfortable with drawings.>> If there are drawings of the antenna mast I have never seen them. You might wish to invest in a set of Cal Scale for the scratch build portion of the project. Remember there is a radio receiver disc in at the front and a box both mounted on the short hood. If you need some photos I think I can scan a copy my brother made for me ions ago. <<2. I find many photos of the front of the long hood, but none of the end of the short hood. The front of the long hood has grab irons leading to the top of the carbody. Were there similar grabs on the short hood?>> Yes, of course there were grabs on the short hood, you didn't think you were going to get of easy did you? Also pay close attention to the fuel tank as the Pennsy bought three different styles of fuel tank variations just to drive use nuts. Also watch your head lights and louver patterns too. <> Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 00:54:03 EDT Subject: [PRR] While we are on the subject of Caboose Hey Yuze Gize, While we are talking about cabooses I have a couple of quick questions. 1) Is anyone aware of any good underframe drawings of the N5C caboose, you would think they would be the same as the N-5 and N-5a,b but there are differences. 2) Anyone know where I can find drawings of the PRR N-8 caboose. Years ago a guy used to advertise reproductions of the originals and he was out of Canada I believe, is he still around? Any options? I am trying to get the tooling on this caboose started and on the market by fall in HO Scale. Any help that you can offer will be greatly appreciated ... Thanks, Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 08:11:00 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention Layout Tours From: Jerry Britton I have received final info on the layout tours for the PRRT&HS convention next month. There are four open layouts: (3) HO scale and (1) O scale. One of the HO layouts is Digitrax DCC based. Full details may be found on the convention agenda on the Cyber Division's web site... http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com Hope to see you there in four weeks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 09:32:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] While we are on the subject of Caboose Greg, The fellow you are referring to from Canada was John Stewart. I am 99.99999% sure he passed away. He sold alot of stuff off so maybe someone here purchased what you are seeking.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 08:49:58 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] X-23 >For the person/persons requesting info on existant X-23 box cars, l just >recieved the Annual Report of the Northern Ohio Railway Museum - They own a >car which carried MOW # 499369. The car has been moved inside and plans are >to restore it to 1940's MOW appearance (since the car has side windows and >end doors) >A photo is available at: http://www.trainweb.org/norm (home page) >to go direct to the photo: >http://www.trainweb.org/norm/roster/prrbox_499369.htm >Dick Ross >Cleveland Hi All, I took a quick look at this car on the web site. The photo is pretty grainy, but I wonder....I think it is an NX-23...therefore with the history of being an X-23, converted to cabin car use during WWII and then put into MOW service. Anyone care to comment? Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] X-23 Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 07:08:06 -0700 Dr. Smith asked: > I took a quick look at this car on the web site. The photo is pretty > grainy, but I wonder....I think it is an NX-23...therefore with the history > of being an X-23, converted to cabin car use during WWII and then put into > MOW service. Anyone care to comment? I don't think so. The NX23 conversions received horizontal sheathing, porthole windows, and a small bay window. This car went straight into MOW service after finishing its career as a boxcar. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Tom Kane Subject: RE: [PRR] Model Railroad Stoneworks Web Site Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 07:42:25 -0700 I saw these items at the Timonium show Saturday and they are spectacular as well as quite large. Thomas M. Kane Consulting Systems Engineer Hitachi Data Systems Phone: 703-481-4273 FAX: 703-471-8348 Pager 800-PAGE-MCI PIN 1680533 Email: Tom.Kane@hds.com -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 11:44 AM To: PRR-Talk LIST; PRR-n_scale Subject: [PRR] Model Railroad Stoneworks Web Site For those who may be interested, Model Railroad Stoneworks now has a web site online at http://www.modelrailroadstoneworks.com They make superb quality stone bridges based on PRR and Erie prototypes. Their current offerings are: PRR 30-Degree Angle Skewed Stone Arch Bridge -- HO scale PRR Semi-Circular High Stone Arch Viaduct -- HO and N scale PRR Rockville Bridge -- HO and N scale Erie Starrucca Viaduct -- HO scale You can regularly find MRS at the Timonium shows, plus they always attend the PRRT&HS convention. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: [PRR] H8/9/10 domes Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 15:47:03 -0700 Does anyone make accurate sand & steam domes for the H8/9/10? Also, does anyone know of an overhead picture of one? By the way, I just posted on my site a postcard picture of the roundhouse at Northumberland which just sold on ebay for $46(!) --- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 16:00:29 EDT From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Caboose ? Steve and cabin car cibitzers, In re, the following: >>Gary, make it an N5. Keep the wood roofwalk, add the ladder rung, but use an N5 photo when you get to the grabs and tool box; there were differences with the N5b. And no trainphone antenna on an N5. Also with an N5 you have the option of building the "crash bars" on the ends; in 1950 there were still a few around without them.<< *AHEM* If it's an N5 with a toolbox suspended beneath the fireman's side without trainfone antenna or the 8-inch I-beam collison posts, I believe you've got an N5f as shown in Bob Yanoosy and David Sweetland's Color Guide to PRR Passenger & Freight Rolling Stock published by Morning Sun. I'm doing this from memory so verify the facts. I belive all nine N5fs were assigned to the PRR's DelMarVa lines. The main sighting point of an N5b is that its riveted belt rail was higher than an N5. Both the four N5as and the single car N5d class varied in design of the underframe and draft gear. I believe both were sauperficially the same as N5s, detecxtable only by road number or reading the class marking. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 16:11:21 -0400 From: Steve Hanlon Subject: [PRR] live railroad audio i'm looking for live scanner audio on the net. i'm trying to educate a friend of mine about the types of things railroaders discuss while performing their duties (talking to yardmasters, dispatchers, car crews, etc..) i remember once having a link to such a site, but have since lost it. thank you -steve h ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: [PRR] Re: H8/9/10 domes Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 16:10:31 -0700 Forgot to say HO scale... --- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 16:39:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Caboose ? Tom, Not doing the tool box version. I am settled in on an N5b with Train Phone. I fabricated the Radio Equipment/Battery Access Door on the body side. I have the Collision Posts installed as well. I believe I have the Belt Line in the right position for the N5b class. If not it is "close enough". I added the fifth ladder rung last night. I removed the wood walkways I had done earlier and will replace it with Metal ones once I have them on hand. Waiting for other parts for underframe too. This won't end up being a "Museum Quality" model but I am well satisfied with my first attempt at scratch building in 1:29th. You can be the judge when I finish it and when I post some pics.....Thanks for your input....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2001 20:19:21 -0400 From: David Pfeiffer Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachman K4 Response from the BACH-MAN regarding an inquiry about the K4 "new tooling". "The K-4 has a new boiler and cab as well as the other details, such as the slat pilot. Enjoy your trains! the Bach-man" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 21:21:23 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachman K4 In a message dated 4/9/01 7:29:03 PM Central Daylight Time, dpfeiffr@popmail.voicenet.com writes: << "The K-4 has a new boiler and cab as well as the other details, such as the slat pilot. >> Does it have correct diameter drivers? Will it pull more than its own tender? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "S J Lash" Subject: [PRR] Tiger Valley Models/Gilford Mack Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 22:27:07 -0400 List is there anyone on the list who has an internet address for Mr Mack of Tiger Valley Models? I have three of these dynamite Alco's, and would like to contact him. Either a web site or e-mail would be appreciated. Thanks Jim Lash ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Caboose ? Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 22:26:59 -0500 Hi Tom--Sure, could be an N5f, but the difference only would be in the size of that tool box, according to the Keystone, December 1973. None of the N5's got trainphones and some of them were still without collsion posts in 1950 and even later. You wrote: > > The main sighting point of an N5b is that its riveted belt rail was higher than an N5. Both the four N5as and the single car N5d class varied in design of the underframe and draft gear. I believe both were sauperficially the same as N5s, detecxtable only by road number or reading the class marking. > I would agree with you about determining N5a and N5d from the N5; however, I don't see the difference in belt rail height on the N5b's--how can it be higher, it is at the bottom of the windows. The curved grabs on the sides on N5b's come up higher, closer to the belt rail, but it appears to me the belt rail is in the same place on all the N5 classes, except the N5c, of course. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] AS-16 help needed Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 22:37:43 -0500 Hi Greg--You wrote-- > >If you need some photos I think I can scan a > copy my brother made for me ions ago. > Can you scan this on your web site so we can all see it? Photos of the short end of the AS-16 are really rare; photos that show the location of equipment on the top of the short hood would fill a big void. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 00:21:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] AS-16 help needed Steve and all, You bet I can and I shall. Now I am not even sure where Ed came up with the photo from, but it illustrates the "business-end" real well. I am not sure who to credit the photo to and understand that this shot is an enlarged photo copy for detail purposes. I suppose if need be I could make some photo copies of the "original" photo copy if it helps, for the price of a stamp and a copy. But in the interest in improving the modeling skills of all the photo will be on AL and my website... Al watch for the scan coming at you. Greg Martin < Hi Greg--You wrote-- >>If you need some photos I think I can scan a copy my brother made for me ions ago.<< > Can you scan this on your web site so we can all see it? Photos of the short end of the AS-16 are really rare; photos that show the location of equipment on the top of the short hood would fill a big void. Steve Hoxie< ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 06:27:35 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Second Run Genesis F7 Units From: Jerry Britton For anyone who is interested, the second run (new road numbers) of the HO scale Athearn Genesis F7 A/B sets is out. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 11:19:29 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] wood cabin siding Tom, and other spfs, A fellow rivit counter on the steam era freight car list, Byron Rose, and I were chatting about wood siding and we got onto PRR cabin cars. From looking at photos in the reprints of the Keystone that just arrived, it seems as if the ND class, and probably all of the N class bobbers were built with vertical v-groove siding. Included in this group are also the NDa and the N-4. These cars all have noticable grooves at the joints between boards. However, on closer examination, it would appear that at least some N-6b cabin cars, at some point in their lives sported square butt joined (tongue and groove) siding, as there appear to be only faint lines between the siding boards, as opposed to the distinct v-groove seen on the ND (as well as on the Gloor craft and Evergreen scibed siding!). Any comments on this observation would be appreciated before I trash my Gloor Craft N-6b in fit of rage!! (wrong %@#$%$ siding!) By way of illumination, standard carbuilding practice appears to have been to use square butt jointed siding on horizontal siding, and v-groove siding on vertically sided cars. Interestingly, some PRR house single sheathed cars with vertical siding received square butt jointed planks...going against the flow so to say... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 16:26:04 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Tidewater tank cars Hi Evan, How's it going? I was archiving the messages in my "out" box when I came across our correspondence about tank cars last year. I said to you: "I model 1944, when the "pipeline on rails" was still in effect to circumvent German U-boat activity in the Gulf of Mexico. During that era, solid trains of tank cars, mostly 8,000 gal and some 10,000 gallon tanks would run. Appropriate RTR models or kits are made by LL P2K, Red Caboose, Intermountain and Tichy." I now know better. The only accurate models are Intermountain's 8K and 1K gallon ACF type 27 and Life Like's 8K and 10K ACF type 21. Red Caboose/Drake just released an accurate GATX tank in brass (at $185 a pop). However, the Red Caboose plastic car (ICC 103W) is of an obscure prototype that wasn't built until 1952 and then only a couple thousand cars. The Tichy model is even worse. It is of a USRA prototype that was never actually built! There was a war emergency tank car that used a similar tank on a type 27 frame, so Richard Hendrickson is working on an article for the kitbash, but otherwise that model is a no-go! (and I have four of the bloody things - GORGEOUS too!)....sigh! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 17:39:46 EDT From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: wood cabin siding Dr. Bruce, V-groove for vertical siding and butt-jointed siding for horizonal boards makes complete sense. The purpose is to speed rain runoff and minimize pooling at the join6s between boards. That a mixture of siding should appear on N6 class cabins is no surprise to me. My theory about the reasons these were rebuilt from obsolete bobber bodies is that wood which had been stockpiled for the building programme had been exhausted by the gargantuan repairs track, structures and rolling stock required following the devastating March 24-28, 1913, Ohio-Michigan floods. Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:28:35 EDT From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] wood cabin siding Bruce, Tom and all (Bryon too), I have had a very similar chat with Byron on the subject of the sidings used on freight and passenger cars and perhaps I can shed some light, being that I have been in the lumber indusrty since 1972 and have purchased all varieties fof sidings in various spieces... In a message "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." writes: << Tom, and other spfs, A fellow rivit counter on the steam era freight car list, Byron Rose, and I were chatting about wood siding and we got onto PRR cabin cars. From looking at photos in the reprints of the Keystone that just arrived, it seems as if the ND class, and probably all of the N class bobbers were built with vertical v-groove siding. Included in this group are also the NDa and the N-4. These cars all have noticable grooves at the joints between boards. However, on closer examination, it would appear that at least some N-6b cabin cars, at some point in their lives sported square butt joined (tongue and groove) siding, as there appear to be only faint lines between the siding boards, as opposed to the distinct v-groove seen on the ND (as well as on the Gloor craft and Evergreen scibed siding!). Any comments on this observation would be appreciated before I trash my Gloor Craft N-6b in fit of rage!! (wrong %@#$%$ siding!)>> The siding that you are seeing on these cars is a distinctive pattern called VEE & Center VEE. The pattern is "worked" from a 1" (or 5/4" possiblly)x 6" piece of stock. It could have been made from various softwoods such as Southern Yellow Pine, Hemlock or Douglas Fir. Most of the pattern at the time and still today was "run up" from clears and "uppers" or a high grade of stock and vertical grain not usually flat grain. This is why you see certain boards with peeling paint as the "slash grain in veticle grain (VG) stock doesn't hold paint well at all, as a painter. The pattern is tongue and grooved at the long edges (it is possible to T&G the ends as well but not nessecary except in flooring)and just above the groove and beyond the tongue there is a shallow VEE groove added as a detail. This VEE could be 1/4" or 1/8" depending on the spec... There was also a less common detail called EE&CEE (EE= eased edge and ceter eased) that showed up in the industry after the turn of the! century. Eased edge was just th at, a slight "nosing or rounding" of the joint. This created a "shadow groove" which is likely what you are seeing. It is highly unlikely that the RR's would have ordered up stock as "Butt Joint". This EE&CEE T&G S2S Rev type siding helped hide inperfections in workmanship below the siding and kept the vetical lines to a minimum (also refered to as "car siding" by older grading agencies still around today to standardize these things and governed by the American Lumber Standards). There was also special patterns for passenger cars called B&CB T&G S2S REV. (Bead and Center Bead Tongue and groove Surfaced 2 Sides Reversible)This pattern was much older and disappeared with the advent of steel passenger cars except in detail work on the interiors and samples of this pattern can still be found in Home Centers as Wainscotting and is generally thinner material "run up" in Spruce, Pine and Fir. This pattern can also be found in interiors of most pre-WW1 built caboose and in the cabs o! f most steam locomotive. The in terior pattern at the time was generally "run up" in less valuable hardwoods such as Alder as was the case in the restoration of the ATSF 3751. <> I would have to have a really good photo shown it me to believe this as I disputed this before with Byron. If one were to apply two coats of a high quality enamel (pre-WW-2) over a car sheathed with 1x6 EE S2S T&G REV and primered with white lead I you would not likely be able to detect the joints at all (note the center EE was dropped on horizontal siding)except as the boards began to breath and the paint at the oint began to crack under the lineal expansion. Remember T&G's are not made to fit tight in softwoods like those in their hardwood flooring counterparts, they are made to "float". It is still common practice even today to apply T&G horizontally with the tongue up so as to not allow the water to collect in the "joint" and filter into the wood. Butt joint pattern is less likely to be found in construction of rail cars if at all (except in wood roofs). A good source of reference is Wanyers PRR book and the NJ International PRR caboose book for glimpses of the rebuildi! ng of the PRR's Wood caboose fle et... I don't mean to show anyone up here just shed some light on a very old rehashed subject. If any one has any doubt as to pre-WW1 frieght car construction they need only visit the Orange Empire Trolly Museum and take a good look at the D&H wood freight car that is on display and had various attempts at restoration. <> Bruce and all I hope this helps if need be I can scan some old Grading Agengy handbooks for better clarifaction on the subject... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2001 21:45:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] wood cabin siding Greg, Bruce, Bruce, I am glad someone answered your inqury. I was planning on using the info you recieved to help me build a G Scale N6b after I was finished with this N5b. But Geez! Greg blew me out of the water I think with his answer.. Does Evergreen make a suitable T-G V Grooved siding? How about a scale wood supplier? I don't want to get half way thru and find out I used something completly wrong. Something "close enough" is fine.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2001 08:24:51 -0400 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] N5f OK, Tom V., I'll bite. Two questions: 1) How do you distinguish the fireman's side from the other (? engineer's) side of a cabin car? I always assumed that they were double ended and would be run either direction in a train. And 2) does the lack of a trainphone antenna on these 8 modern cabins, which are almost all the modern steel cabins on the Delmarva Division, mean that there were no trainphones used anywhere in the division? [This means my modeling of the Belle Haven -Exmore -Nassawadox section will be much easier!!] Thanks in advance, JimMCDaniel, lost down here in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 09:02:39 EDT From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] E60CP conversion This is a little off topic but one of you PRR modelers may model a modern PRR. Has anyone converted a Bachman E60CP using an Athearn drive? If so what did you use? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 10:09:30 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Cresson & Horseshoe Curve on 4/13/01 From: Jerry Britton If anyone is going to be around Cresson or Horseshoe Curve tomorrow, Friday, April 13, I'll be there with daughter and son -- camera and scanner in hand. If you think you've spotted us, don't be shy...say Hello! Plan to arrive in the general area around 10 a.m. and leave around 3 p.m. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 14:30:40 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Baggage Lounge Bar (PLB85R) ??? From: Jerry Britton I'm modeling the 1954 "Spirit of St. Louis" and the April 1954 edition of the New York Division's "Makeup of Trains" shows that the fourth car is as follows: Baggage Lounge Bar.....St. Louis to New York (PLB85R) Anyone know where I can find out more about this car? I'm really looking for elevation drawings so I can have car sides made. I checked Rob's site, to no avail. Reference to photos or text would also be appreciated. Car numbers? If you are interested, the complete consist (and whose models I will be using) is as follows: 6:36 a.m.....30 arr from St. Louis "Spirit of St. Louis" Mail Storage.....Dayton to New York (MS60 OR B60) (News Week) HELL GATE MODELS Baggage Mail.....St. Louis to New York (BM70M) (Letter End West) ??? Mail Storage.....St. Louis to New York (MS60) (X) HELL GATE MODELS Baggage Lounge Bar.....St. Louis to New York (PLB85R) ??? Coaches.....St. Louis to New York (reclining seats) (P85BR) (Two cars) DES PLAINES HOBBIES Dining Car.....St. Louis to New York (D85C) LASER HORIZONS Dining Car.....St. Louis to New York (D85D) LASER HORIZONS Sleeping Car.....St. Louis to New York (PS442) "Imperial Hills", "Imperial Bench" OR "Imperial Vale" LASER HORIZONS Sleeping Car.....St. Louis to New York (PS106) "Conemaugh Rapids", "Conewago Rapids" OR "Catawissa Rapids" RIVAROSSI "Catawissa Rapids" Sleeping Car.....St. Louis to New York (PS124) "Chatham Creek", "Crystal Creek" OR "Clear Creek" LASER HORIZONS Sleeping Car.....St. Louis to Washington (PS106) Harrisburg: Move to 530. LASER HORIZONS Observation Car.....St. Louis to New York (POS211) "Alex. J. Cassatt", "James McCrea" OR "Frank Thomson" LASER HORIZONS ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 15:00:33 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Baggage Lounge Bar (PLB85R) ??? Jerry, I am not that well versed on N scale, but if the Rivarossi N scale 10-6 is like the HO one, then it is a model of the ACF car. "Conemaugh Rapids", "Conewago Rapids", and "Catawissa Rapids" were PS cars. If Laser Horizons makes one you would do better to use it. Furthermore, if the N scale models are like the HO ones, then the Rivarossi windows will be noticeably deeper set than the windows on the other cars. Another good reason to go with LH all the way, if you can. Jerry Britton wrote: > > I'm modeling the 1954 "Spirit of St. Louis" and the April 1954 edition of > the New York Division's "Makeup of Trains" shows that the fourth car is as > follows: > > Baggage Lounge Bar.....St. Louis to New York (PLB85R) > > Anyone know where I can find out more about this car? > > I'm really looking for elevation drawings so I can have car sides made. I > checked Rob's site, to no avail. Reference to photos or text would also be > appreciated. Car numbers? > > If you are interested, the complete consist (and whose models I will be > using) is as follows: > > 6:36 a.m.....30 arr from St. Louis > "Spirit of St. Louis" > Mail Storage.....Dayton to New York (MS60 OR B60) (News Week) > HELL GATE MODELS > Baggage Mail.....St. Louis to New York (BM70M) (Letter End West) > ??? > Mail Storage.....St. Louis to New York (MS60) (X) > HELL GATE MODELS > Baggage Lounge Bar.....St. Louis to New York (PLB85R) > ??? > Coaches.....St. Louis to New York (reclining seats) (P85BR) (Two cars) > DES PLAINES HOBBIES > Dining Car.....St. Louis to New York (D85C) > LASER HORIZONS > Dining Car.....St. Louis to New York (D85D) > LASER HORIZONS > Sleeping Car.....St. Louis to New York (PS442) "Imperial Hills", > "Imperial Bench" OR "Imperial Vale" > LASER HORIZONS > Sleeping Car.....St. Louis to New York (PS106) "Conemaugh Rapids", > "Conewago Rapids" OR "Catawissa Rapids" > RIVAROSSI "Catawissa Rapids" > Sleeping Car.....St. Louis to New York (PS124) "Chatham Creek", > "Crystal Creek" OR "Clear Creek" > LASER HORIZONS > Sleeping Car.....St. Louis to Washington (PS106) > Harrisburg: Move to 530. > LASER HORIZONS > Observation Car.....St. Louis to New York (POS211) "Alex. J. Cassatt", > "James McCrea" OR "Frank Thomson" > LASER HORIZONS > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2001 22:52:26 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Baggage Lounge Bar (PLB85R) ??? Jerry, There is a drawing of PLB85R on page 47 of the Wayner book: PRR Passenger & Freight Car Diagrams. Although it only shows one side, it appears that both sides, have windows and freight doors directly opposite one another. Regards, Dennis Laser Horizons ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: [PRR] Sunbury postcard question Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:00:36 -0700 There is a postcard which shows up regularly on ebay entitled "Scene along the Susquehanna, Sunbury, PA" showing a single track with a stub leading to a small passenger shelter: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1132502129 Does anyone know if this is on the PRR's P&E branch? --- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 13:51:19 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] wood cabin siding Greg, WOW! Thanks for a fantastic treatise on car siding! >I would have to have a really good photo shown it me to believe this as I >disputed this before with Byron. If one were to apply two coats of a high >quality enamel (pre-WW-2) over a car sheathed with 1x6 EE S2S T&G REV and >primered with white lead I you would not likely be able to detect the >joints at all (note the center EE was dropped on horizontal siding)except >as the boards began to breath and the paint at the oint began to crack >under the lineal expansion. In re-examining the photographs of PRR wood cabins, I noticed several interesting features. First on the older photos (eg builders photos), the grooves are clearly visible and very regular. On slightly older cars in service the grooves become difficult to see (after having been filled with paint?). Once cabins have a significant amount of age, the boards become visible and defined by _every_other_ groove (ie the "decorative groove" can be identified). This is particularly noticable where the paint has peeled on an individual board. For someone painting a wood cabin to represent an old weathered car, this would make a fantastic detail to kee in mind! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 15:12:27 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] wood cabin siding In a message dated 4/13/01 1:59:51 PM Central Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << the boards become visible and defined by _every_other_ groove (ie the "decorative groove" can be identified). This is particularly noticable where the paint has peeled on an individual board. For someone painting a wood cabin to represent an old weathered car, this would make a fantastic detail to kee in mind! >> Oh, great. Plank counters will replace rivet counters :-). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:39:33 EDT Subject: [PRR] Wilmington Station/construction Hi everyone...Quick update. All those who have ordered their Wilmington Station series will be receiving the next installment within the next month. Had a small problem with the roof being undersized. That has been corrected. You can see pictures on the website www.trainstuffllc.com on the structures page that Earl has taken while he is assembling the clock tower building. These will be invaluable to those of you who will be putting this building together. The first building was easy. This one has a lot more detail to assemble. Enjoy. Dayna ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 17:45:13 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Cresson & Horseshoe Curve From: Jerry Britton Just got in from the daylong jaunt to the Altoona area. Was nice to meet up with fellow listers Pat McKinney and Mark Lehman at the Horseshoe Curve. Weather was great. Saw 22 trains in 4.5 hours...mostly in the afternoon at Cresson, where there was a non-stop parade after 1:30 p.m. Cresson causes me to repeat an earlier information request: When was the steam helper facility -- roundhouse, turntable, coal wharf -- removed and replaced with the wye and diesel facility? Eric Hirsimaki covers purchases of diesel helpers extensively in his second volume of "Black Gold Black Diamonds". It covers up to 1951. I know there was initially some diesel servicing at the turning track at Gallitzin. Perhaps this is where the early diesels worked out of and the steam facility remained much longer. I know the J-1's were among the last of the steam classes to work in quantity, in helper service, per Hirsimaki. Guess the Cresson steam facility could have made it to the mid to late 1950's. Perhaps Eric is the person to ask? (Anyone have an e-mail address for him?) If anyone else knows, don't be shy!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gene Deimling" Subject: [PRR] Keystone Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 14:58:14 -0700 Has the Spring 2001 issue of the Keystone come out yet? Thanks. Gene ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Keith Pomroy" Subject: [PRR] PRR Birthday Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:02:46 -0400 Just remembered that the PRR was chartered 155 years ago today. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "GAS" Subject: [PRR] Test Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 18:46:47 -0400 Testing --Greg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "jbreon" Subject: [PRR] New Photos Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 21:54:43 -0400 Several new PRR photos were added to George Elwood's site during the past few days. Some especially nice heavyweight passenger car photos. Check them out at: http://www.dnaco.net/~gelwood/new08-14apr.html Jerry Breon Reading, PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] New photos Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:29:59 -0400 Howdy Everybody: I received my new scanner today, and since it does slides, I got out my slide books. While searching through them, I found the following two photos. Here is PRR E7 7002 at the Lancaster PA train station  it is teamed up with 1223 on an excursion to Philadelphia. http://www.wsbcos.com/prr7002.jpg it was august of 1985 I have no idea where this next one was taken but it is a PRR H39 in its original paint. http://www.wsbcos.com/prrH39.jpg maybe somewhere towards Phila in 1985 And how about the bridges at Safe Harbor. http://www.wsbcos.com/safebridge.jpg. My next project will be the Steelton & Highspire Railroad  from #60 up to #77 Cos Cos Communications, Inc. Home Page Rail Road Pages ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 22:30:13 -0400 From: David Ott Subject: [PRR] Trains Magazine Guys, Does anyone know what month and year "Trains" featured a article on PRR operations in the Altoona area? I believe it was in 1957, but I'm not sure. Is it something all SPF should own or at least read? Thanks- Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Keith Pomroy" Subject: RE: [PRR] Trains Magazine Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:02:56 -0400 Dave and fellow-listers, I think you are referring to David P. Morgan's article in the April 1957 issue entitled "World's Busiest Mountain Railroad." (By the way, in January 1985, Fred Frailey wrote a follow-up piece entitled "STILL the World's Busiest Mountain Railroad.") --Keith -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of David Ott Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 10:30 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] Trains Magazine Guys, Does anyone know what month and year "Trains" featured a article on PRR operations in the Altoona area? I believe it was in 1957, but I'm not sure. Is it something all SPF should own or at least read? Thanks- Dave ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 23:50:21 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Trains Magazine Greetings to Dave, Keith, and the list: This is required reading. As good as David Morgan's text is, the Phil Hastings photos (i.e., Centipedes at night) are just as impressive. Dan Cupper Keith Pomroy wrote: > > Dave and fellow-listers, > I think you are referring to David P. Morgan's article in the April 1957 > issue entitled "World's Busiest Mountain Railroad." (By the way, in January > 1985, Fred Frailey wrote a follow-up piece entitled "STILL the World's > Busiest Mountain Railroad.") > --Keith > > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of David Ott > Sent: Friday, April 13, 2001 10:30 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Trains Magazine > > Guys, > > Does anyone know what month and year "Trains" featured a article on PRR > operations in the Altoona area? I believe it was in 1957, but I'm not > sure. > > Is it something all SPF should own or at least read? > > Thanks- Dave > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 00:49:17 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] wood cabin siding Bruce and all, I you want to rebuild the Model Power N-6b (such as it is) and then painted and letter the car I think you could apply the techniques we shared in Cocoa Beach this past January. I would be tempted to use the graphite pencil to emphasize the pattern. This would make the end result a bit more subtle, but I also might be willing to experiment with an orange colored pencil above the graphite pencil line to further draw our attention to the actual joint. Hey, give it a try it can always be redone. Greg Martin smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << Once cabins have a significant amount of age, the boards become visible and defined by _every_other_ groove (ie the "decorative groove" can be identified). This is particularly noticeable where the paint has peeled on an individual board. For someone painting a wood cabin to represent an old weathered car, this would make a fantastic detail to keep in mind! Happy Rails Bruce >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 05:46:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] PRR marine ops Hey, I am interested in modeling a PRR scene along the Delmarva or the main line between Baltimore and Philly. Does the tracks come near the ocean or the bay? Were there lighthouses, fishervillages, other marine activeties next to these routes? Are there pictures online off PRR steamboats, tugs and carfloat? Thanks, Geoffrey __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 09:30:52 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Cresson facilities Jerry & List. The Jan.1980 issue of RAILS NORTHEAST has a great writeup on the Cresson Division. Towards the end of the article it is mentioned that "The advent of conversion from steam to diesel between 1948 and 52 led to the razing of the roundhouse. However Cresson remained an engine terminal for the branch mine runs.Later on,around the late 50's,the helper operation was moved from Gallitzin to Cresson." Jerry,This should shed some light on the subject although is does not answer everthing. Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 11:29:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cresson facilities From: Jerry Britton On 4/14/01 9:30 AM, PKMac101@aol.com at (PKMac101@aol.com) wrote: > The Jan.1980 issue of RAILS NORTHEAST has a great writeup on the > Cresson Division. Towards the end of the article it is mentioned that "The > advent of > conversion from steam to diesel between 1948 and 52 led to the razing of the > roundhouse. However Cresson remained an engine terminal for the branch mine > runs.Later on,around the late 50's,the helper operation was moved from > Gallitzin to Cresson." > Jerry,This should shed some light on the subject although is does > not answer everthing. > Thanks, Pat, that definitely means that my diesel helpers will need to have facilities modeled at Gallitzin, which fortunately I will have room for. Does anyone know of published track plans or photos of the short-lived diesel facility at Gallitzin? Pat, if the roundhouse was razed circa 1952, but the steam facility remained open, sounds like perhaps the turntable was still there, along with the coal wharf. Do you know for sure? Again, my interest is in what existed as of 1954. Thanks all!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 17:12:31 -0400 Subject: [PRR] April 1957 Issue of Trains Magazine From: Jerry Britton Anyone have the April 1957 issue of "Trains" magazine? That's when they ran the article "World's Busiest Mountain Railroad." The article no doubt discussed helpers on the mountain. I'd like to know if there's mention (or photos) of where the diesel helpers were serviced... were they still serviced on the Gallitzin loop track, or had they already been moved west to Cresson? A quick answer would be great, a photocopy of the article would be fantastic! Thanks in advance. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 18:00:41 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] April 1957 Issue of Trains Magazine In a message dated 4/14/01 4:18:24 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << I'd like to know if there's mention (or photos) of where the diesel helpers were serviced... were they still serviced on the Gallitzin loop track, or had they already been moved west to Cresson? >> Clues point to Gallitzin. Quote: "a road foreman of engines, for example, asking what's been done about a leaking tank car of diesel fuel he spotted at Gallitzin; asking why No. 11's helper went through to Pittsburgh instead of cutting off at the summit". "Westward passenger and freight train assisted from Altoona to UN. Eastward freight trains assisted from C to AR" I realize all but the first quote indicate where the helpers were cut off, not necessarily where they were serviced. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 18:58:29 -0400 From: "Michael E. Hauk" Subject: [PRR] Re: Postcard >Subject: Sunbury postcard question >From: "Jerry Shickler" >Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:00:36 -0700 > >There is a postcard which shows up regularly on ebay entitled "Scene along >the Susquehanna, Sunbury, PA" showing a single track with a stub leading to >a small passenger shelter: >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1132502129 >Does anyone know if this is on the PRR's P&E branch? > >--- >Jerry Shickler >Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: >http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm > Jerry: This postcard shows the Reading station on the west bank of the Susquehanna across the river from Sunbury, just south of Blue Hill. The Reading bridge over the river is just off to the left out of the field of view of the photographer. Parts of the roadbed and the adjacent canal are now under the highway (147 or is it 11? I forget.) that runs up that side of the river. The bridge was pulled up some years ago, but I think the piers remain. The name of the station eludes me at the moment also. (Some help I am, eh?) The site was the scene of a spectacular wreck in the late 30's/early 40's. The postcard is probably circa 1910 or thereabouts. Mike H. Former Sunbury resident ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lmatt" Subject: [PRR] B60 baggage car Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 21:49:33 -0400 Dear list: Claus Schlund sent me this URL to show me a photo of the B62 baggage car purchased from the Reading RR. http://www.trainweb.org/jssand/Foreign/PRR.htm Other information about the B60 / B60b car came to light in the same site. I want to check wiith the author of the site to verify the source and accuracy of some of his/her statements about the bagage cars. Anyone recognise this site and know who is responsible for its existance? Thanks for your help, Lew Matt PRRT&HS #6107 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 08:53:55 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: [PRR] Restoration of PRR EP22 #5711 The Philadelphia Chapter of the PRRT&HS expresses its sincere appreciation to Bennett Levin for granting his permission to publish the restoration process of PRR 5711A on our website. My special thanks goes out to Steve Agostini for all the time, effort and energy put forth on documenting this restoration. Go to Bill Morlitz, PRRT&HS Website Superintendent ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2001 15:59:58 -0400 From: "Michael E. Hauk" Subject: [PRR] Re: Postcard >Subject: Re: Postcard >From: "Michael E. Hauk" >Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 18:58:29 -0400 > >>Subject: Sunbury postcard question >>From: "Jerry Shickler" >>Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 10:00:36 -0700 >> >>There is a postcard which shows up regularly on ebay entitled "Scene along >>the Susquehanna, Sunbury, PA" showing a single track with a stub leading to >>a small passenger shelter: >>http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1132502129 >>Does anyone know if this is on the PRR's P&E branch? >> >>--- >>Jerry Shickler >>Visit the PRR E&P, P&E, & Chautauqua branch web page at: >>http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm >> > Jerry: > >This postcard shows the Reading station on the west bank of the Susquehanna >across the river from Sunbury, just south of Blue Hill. The Reading bridge >over the river is just off to the left out of the field of view of the >photographer. Parts of the roadbed and the adjacent canal are now under the >highway (147 or is it 11? I forget.) that runs up that side of the river. >The bridge was pulled up some years ago, but I think the piers remain. The >name of the station eludes me at the moment also. (Some help I am, eh?) The >site was the scene of a spectacular wreck in the late 30's/early 40's. The >postcard is probably circa 1910 or thereabouts. > >Mike H. >Former Sunbury resident Not that it matters, but the bridge was off to the _right_, not the left. Sorry. That's what happens when I read my e-mail after 2 beers. :) Hope someone else has more specific info for you. Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 03:09:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] May issue of trains Hi, on page 53 of the May issue of trains is a picture of Havre de grace. Is this bridge built by the PRR, and is the catenary still the same? Especially the lower poles left to the sun. Since the made an article on restorted steam and tourist railroads -especially that nice article on the C&TS p.36-45- WHY isn't their an operating Pennsy steamer or Pennsy tourist line? Geoffrey __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 06:24:49 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Cresson & Gallitzin Questions Continue From: Jerry Britton Thanks to all who responded on the April 1957 article from Trains magazine. Dave MacLean faxed me a copy which was followed up by a scanned copy from Dan Cupper. Geez I love the Internet!!! For my 1954 modeling, Cresson still serviced steam with its 75' turntable. Pat McKinney thinks the roundhouse may have already been razed by this date, but the rest of the facilities remained until the late 1950's. As of '54, diesel servicing was still done on the loop tracks at Gallitzin. The loops were @ 1200' long between AR and UN. The trains article indicates one loop was called "Altoona" and one "Conemaugh", based on the slope the helpers using her were assigned. Anyone know which loop was which? Just an observation, but the American norm of "keep right" would have left engineers in both directions with poor views of the other loop track. As for the fuel/sand pad on the loop track, was there one platform between the two tracks, a half platform on the outside of either, or a three platform setup? I understand they are still there. I also understand that westbound trains stopped so their helpers could uncouple just prior to UN. At what signal would they make this stop? Would it be the one just prior to the Route 53 overpass? (Isn't this the distant signal for MO?) Or would they just stop wherever it worked out that the helper was in the right location? As for eastbounds, did the helpers latch on "on the fly" as the train passed AR? Or did the helper back up to MO? Lastly, for the N scalers, anyone have the Hallmark Centipedes? If so, what kind of minimum radius do you think they can turn on when running light? I'm looking to use a set as BH-50 helpers and I don't have a ton of real estate for the loop track at Gallitzin. Again, they'd be running light. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] May issue of trains Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:31:41 -0400 Geoff:- The bridge and the catenary towers are unchanged at Havre de Grace. The catenary on the corridor has been reworked but looks virtually the same as it did in the PRR era. The Strasburg Railroad has 2 PRR steam locomotives, 4-4-2 No. 7002, and 4-4-0 No. 1223 that have operated recently but I understand need work to operate again. 4-6-2 No. 1361, the K4s, is being restored to operating conditionfor main line operation. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoffrey Van Dooren" To: "PRR talk list" Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 6:09 AM Subject: [PRR] May issue of trains > Hi, > on page 53 of the May issue of trains is a picture of > Havre de grace. Is this bridge built by the PRR, and > is the catenary still the same? Especially the lower > poles left to the sun. > Since the made an article on restorted steam and > tourist railroads -especially that nice article on the > C&TS p.36-45- WHY isn't their an operating Pennsy > steamer or Pennsy tourist line? > Geoffrey > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 08:47:32 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] May issue of trains Geoffrey writes: >on page 53 of the May issue of trains is a picture of >Havre de grace. Is this bridge built by the PRR, and >is the catenary still the same? Especially the lower >poles left to the sun. Geoffrey, Not having that issue of Trains at hand, I'm going to assume that since there is catenary on the bridge that it is the PRR bridge and not the B&O bridge upstream a bit in Minnick. The short answer is yes, this is the PRR bridge, now used by Amtrak, between Perryville and Havre de Grace. My apologies for the pronounciation of my compatriots but the town is pronounced "Have Ra Da Grace" in that part of Maryland, not "av re de grass" >Since the made an article on restorted steam and >tourist railroads -especially that nice article on the >C&TS p.36-45- WHY isn't their an operating Pennsy >steamer or Pennsy tourist line? >Geoffrey PRR K4 1361 will hopefully grace the rails this summer again after over 10 years of idleness. There are a number of preserved PRR steamers that folks discuss getting back in steam, for example the I-1 in western New York, however, fundamentally, the PRR wasn't into giving away steam locomotives in with miles still left in them. Most of the locos that were saved, for example for the Nothumberland collection (now at Strasburg) had run out their carreers. Unfortunately, some of the most interesting and uniques PRR steam was never saved from the torch, including the later classes (J-1, Q-1, Q-2, S-1, S-2, T-1 etc). Actually, the bottom line is that new safety regs and the limited lifespan of the materials used means that many of the current steamers in use may have to retire within the next decade...and we aren't building replacements! Happy (?) Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 09:40:35 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] wood cabin siding Greg Martin wrote: >I you want to rebuild the Model Power N-6b (such as it is) and then painted >and letter the car I think you could apply the techniques we shared in Cocoa >Beach this past January. I would be tempted to use the graphite pencil to >emphasize the pattern. This would make the end result a bit more subtle, but >I also might be willing to experiment with an orange colored pencil above the >graphite pencil line to further draw our attention to the actual joint. Hey, >give it a try it can always be redone. Hmmmm, actually I had started a series of cabin projects a couple of years back that involve building Gloor Craft kits with styrene rather than the wood sides. For personal use, I was considering making up a side and an end with the Gloor craft window and pilot holes & nbw castings for grabs and then using these as masters for resin sides. At the moment, I have the beginnings of sides for an ND, N-4, and N-6 stashed. Tom V is much much farther along with this it think... Of course, then I have to go and make the project more complicated by thinking I should do a correct underframe, and after seeing Earl Hackett's windows on the Wilmington station...that I sould scratchbuild the windows... So, once I get the buggers built, I think I will indeed try those painting techniques as they will definitely provide the right "accent". Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] May issue of trains Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:47:10 -0400 Howdy List: Here is a shot of 7002 on one of her two major mainline outings in the 80's http://www.wsbcos.com/prr7002.jpg at the Lancaster PA train station. The Strasburg had a problem, the 1223 was too light to handle most of the SRR's trains and the 7002 was in need of some major work. Since the SRR did not own but leased both locomotives from the State, it was felt that a better investment of their monies was in their own equipment. From that we have the retirement of 1223 and 7002 and the arrival or ex NW 475. Cos Cos Communications, Inc. Home Page Rail Road Pages Subject: Re: [PRR] May issue of trains Geoff:- The bridge and the catenary towers are unchanged at Havre de Grace. The catenary on the corridor has been reworked but looks virtually the same as it did in the PRR era. The Strasburg Railroad has 2 PRR steam locomotives, 4-4-2 No. 7002, and 4-4-0 No. 1223 that have operated recently but I understand need work to operate again. 4-6-2 No. 1361, the K4s, is being restored to operating conditionfor main line operation. Gregg Mahlkov Subject: [PRR] May issue of trains > Hi, > on page 53 of the May issue of trains is a picture of > Havre de grace. Is this bridge built by the PRR, and > is the catenary still the same? Especially the lower > poles left to the sun. > Since the made an article on restorted steam and > tourist railroads -especially that nice article on the > C&TS p.36-45- WHY isn't their an operating Pennsy > steamer or Pennsy tourist line? > Geoffrey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 10:59:06 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] B60 baggage car I believe this excellent site is the work of Steve Sandifer . It is the source of the observation about horse express cars which began my long email thread on "HAVER DE GRACE". Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== lmatt wrote: > > Dear list: > > Claus Schlund sent me this URL to show me a photo of the B62 baggage car > purchased from the Reading RR. > > http://www.trainweb.org/jssand/Foreign/PRR.htm > > Other information about the B60 / B60b car came to light in the same site. > I want to check wiith the author of the site to verify the source and > accuracy of some of his/her statements about the bagage cars. Anyone > recognise this site and know who is responsible for its existance? Thanks > for your help, > > Lew Matt > PRRT&HS #6107 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:20:19 -0400 Subject: [PRR] A Plug for the PRRT&HS From: Jerry Britton For the benefit of the newer members on the list, as I met one over the weekend who asked "What's the deal with the PRRT&HS, should I join?" The PRRT&HS is the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical & Historical Society. It has around 3,000 members from all over the world. Dues are $35 per year and earn the member a subscription to "The Keystone", a quarterly magazine which usually runs 100 pages. In my opinion, this is a superb magazine from a production standpoint. From a content standpoint, not every article/issue is for everyone, since there are so many topics when discussing the PRR. However, I feel the subscription alone is worth the annual dues! The Society also participates in restoration projects and, in fact, owns the restored Lewistown Junction station. The Society produces many special publications, which are offered at a discount to members. Once a year the Society holds an annual meeting, typically in May, which is really a convention. It runs from Thursday evening through Saturday evening. This year it is May 3-5 in Camp Hill, Pa. There is a Vendor Room of about 80 tables filled with "things PRR". Unlike going to generic train shows, this room is filled with models accurate to the prototype and tons of PRR railroadiana. You can read all about the upcoming convention at the Cyber Divisions web site at: http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com The convention is a great place to meet in person people you have met online, swap stories, take in the numerous seminars, visit local layouts, and participate in site tours. Future conventions will be held in Camp Hill, Pa. (2002), somewhere around Philadelphia, Pa. (2003), and perhaps somewhere on "Lines West", Ohio (2004). If you are not a member of the Society, you can still attend the convention, joining in the process. To join without attending, see the Society's web site for a membership application. The address is: http://www.prrths.com Get on board!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Discussion Web Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:32:46 -0400 List: I notice the Discussion Web has disappeared from the PRRT&HS website yet again and is once again buried in the Philadelphia chapter website. This is not the best location for assisting non-members seeking information about the PRR. It's just this sort of thing that has convinced me that membership would be a waste of my money. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:46:18 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Discussion Web From: Jerry Britton On 4/16/01 11:32 AM, Gregg Mahlkov (mahlkov@gtcom.net) wrote: > I notice the Discussion Web has disappeared from the PRRT&HS website yet > again and is once again buried in the Philadelphia chapter website. This is > not the best location for assisting non-members seeking information about > the PRR. It's just this sort of thing that has convinced me that membership > would be a waste of my money. > The Discussion Web is not an "official benefit" of the Society...so please don't base your membership decision on that. The Discussion Web was created in 1999 by a few Philadelphia Chapter members. Due to political issues, I believe, its location has bounced back and forth. My recommendation is to post your query on "PRR-Talk". This list was the first (and remains the largest) online talk list for "things PRR" which was started in the fall of 1996. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:08:48 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention Saturday Breakfast From: Jerry Britton A reminder to those attending the PRRT&HS Convention in three weeks: "PRR-Talk" and the Cyber Division of the PRRT&HS invite all to attend a "I Love the Smell of Diesel Fumes in the Morning" Bring Your Own Breakfast at the concrete bridge (nee Iron Bridge) at the west throat of the Enola Yards on Saturday morning, prior to the Annual Meeting. The site is a quick 15 minute drive, if that, from the hotel. There is a Dunkin Donuts and a McDonalds along the way. Directions to the site are now included on the convention's "Schedule of Events", posted on the Cyber Division's web site... http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:17:56 -0400 From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Discussion Web --On Monday, April 16, 2001 11:46:18 AM -0400 Jerry Britton wrote: > On 4/16/01 11:32 AM, Gregg Mahlkov (mahlkov@gtcom.net) wrote: > >> I notice the Discussion Web has disappeared from the PRRT&HS website yet >> again and is once again buried in the Philadelphia chapter website. This >> is not the best location for assisting non-members seeking information >> about the PRR. It's just this sort of thing that has convinced me that >> membership would be a waste of my money. >> > The Discussion Web is not an "official benefit" of the Society...so please > don't base your membership decision on that. Maybe it should be, and there's no reason not to base the decision off whether you think the Society is offering services you want. I'm a member, obviously, but that doesn't mean other people can't expect other things than I do. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:29:34 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Discussion Web Gregg, Considering dropping your membership for a triffling matter such as where the so-called "discussion page" resides seems to be somewhat immature and not indicative of very good judgement. The effort that goes into the Society's internet site is significant and the effort expended by the Philadelphia Chapter in maintaining their section is very significant and a benefit to all (members and non-members alike). I can assure you that there has been much in the hidden political agendas of some of the Society's leadership that I have not agreed with for many many years, but I never considered not renewing my membership because I firmly believed and still believe that it takes a collective effort to mount the significant forum that the Society presents. Just because information is free on the internet, that is no reason not to support an effort that costs a few dollars especially when the underlying organization provides a foundation that the intellecual effort is based upon. Just knowing that it is there, publishes the premier technical society publication, and offers a little of something for everyone is reason enough to support it. As I said before, there are many things about the National operation that I have disagreed with for many years, but those things are a function of personalities. They will come to pass. I think the Philly Chapter does an outstanding job in whatever it undertakes. Benj. Franklin once said something to the effect, " We will all hang seperately if we do not hang together! As the population ages membership will be harder to sustain. The Society needs every possible member. Thirty Five dollars is a wonderful investment in providing a forum and the fellowship that it breeds. Reconsider your position, it sounds pretty petty to me. Bennett Levin Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > List: > > I notice the Discussion Web has disappeared from the PRRT&HS website yet > again and is once again buried in the Philadelphia chapter website. This is > not the best location for assisting non-members seeking information about > the PRR. It's just this sort of thing that has convinced me that membership > would be a waste of my money. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 11:34:19 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] PRR freight car classes Hi All, I have placed a portion of the chart from the Keystone, volume 7, number 3, 1974, depicting the top 30 classes of PRR freight cars on a web page at: http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/carclasses.html While the chart had many more years of data, the years I have up now are 1943 and 1945. As noted in the article, the 1930's car building program dominated the roster until the 1960's! Educational to me was the point that the top 4 classes (H21a, X29, GLa, GS) were sooooo dominant, that the fifth place class GRa, had half as many cars as any of the previous 4. The other surprising thing for me was the breakdown in types of cars, especially the number of gons, and the number of "early" boxcars. I'd say that this was a pretty good place to start "roster planning". I will also update this page with links to car diagrams and perhaps models when I get the chance. Happy Rails, Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 13:48:30 EDT From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] #4800 I have been doing some research preparing to backdate a couple of G's to the earlier version with the fabricated pilot and I have some questions. A picture in Pennsy Power shows 4800 new with no plate across the pilot under the coupler. Can't tell you the page number but it is in the upper right corner of the right hand page and say's it is shown new in 1935. There is just a jumble of who knows what showing under the coupler. Later pictures show 4800 with a trapezoid shaped pilot which it apparently still wears today. There are also some pictures that show it with a plate pilot that extends to the steps with small curved cutouts above the rails like all the other early G's ( through 4828 I think). Is it possible the pilot was removed druing shopping and misplaced on to another engine before returning it to its rightful owner? Are these two variations the only known pilots on the earlier units? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 14:45:34 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] PRRT&HS Discussion Web Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > List: > > I notice the Discussion Web has disappeared from the PRRT&HS website yet > again and is once again buried in the Philadelphia chapter website. This is > not the best location for assisting non-members seeking information about > the PRR. It's just this sort of thing that has convinced me that membership > would be a waste of my money. > > Gregg Mahlkov Jerry Britton wrote: > The Discussion Web is not an "official benefit" of the Society...so please > don't base your membership decision on that. > > The Discussion Web was created in 1999 by a few Philadelphia Chapter > members. Due to political issues, I believe, its location has bounced back > and forth. >Rest SNIPPED< Greg and Jerry, I've taken the liberty of pasting part of Jerry's reply to Gregg in this reply. First, they are both part of the same website . The Discussion Web was moved from the National's portion to the Philadelphia Chapter's portion almost 9 months ago. This was done at the request of the National's Board. The link from the National's portion disappeared yesterday and I'm attempting to find out why. As a history of the Discussion Web, when Jim Lynch (National), Phil Ritter (PHL Chapter) and I first talked about revitalizing the website in early, 1998 (and Jerry, you were there at Lancaster when we met in May of 1998), we wanted to include some sort of informational exchange where PRR enthusiasts could ask questions and receive answers as quickly as possible. We called it the "Information Exchange" and noted it was not to be confused with the Keystone's "Information Exchange". As the superintendent, I received all queries and would answer some of them. Jim Lynch, until his passing in October of 1998, was my "Walking Encyclopedia" for most other answers. Chris Baer was also a major contributor and continues to be of great assistance. So it was not created in 1999 by a few PHL Chapter members but was an integral part of the revitalization. Steve, our webmaster, hit upon the idea of utilizing an open-ended database in January of 1999 to replace the loss of Jim's expertise and not to overburden others. We, of course, had to get both the National organization's and the PHL Chapter's approval for this. Our primary concern was having people post something that would offend and/or not be PRR related. Steve has done a diligent job of overseeing that portion of the Discussion Web. Our other concern has been the fact that some people feel that only 100% correct answers should be posted. That's an impossibility. The whole idea of a discussion group is give and take. People post answers feeling they are correct. Sometimes someone else's post will jog a memory that results in "Opps, I'm wrong." and that's perfectly okay. The fact that an average of over 200 questions are posted each month shows the success of this part of the site. And let me state for the record that the website would not and could not exist without Steve. The layout, graphics, photos and an immense amount of time are all due to his diligence and professionalism. A perfect example is the posting of the JCT's restoration of the EP22's; all Steve's work and time. The reason for the name change to "Discussion Web" was because so many people were confusing the website's I.E. with the Keystone's. They have always been two distinct and separate efforts. IMHO, the answers in the Keystone's "Information Exchange" over the years are priceless and worthy of being published in a stand alone book. I certainly hope, Gregg, that you reconsider your membership in the National Organization. Best, Bill Morlitz, PRRT&HS Website Superintendent ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 15:29:57 EDT From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] wood cabin siding Bruce, Remember light and the lack of it requires us to think out of the box to create what we lack, sunlight in the train room. So I am willing to bet the graphite pencil and the orange colored pencil will do the trick. When you get to that point I will do some experimening on a piece of styrene scribed siding and we can work the correct base color and then add the details and I will send the test sheet to you with the formula match. How does that sound? YOU WROTE: >So, once I get the buggers built, I think I will indeed try those painting techniques as they will definitely provide the right "accent". Happy Rails Bruce< Keep'um polished... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:19:43 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Key T-1 in N Scale From: Jerry Britton If anyone knows of a Key dealer who has an unsold N scale T-1 #6111, please put me in contact with them or vice versa. These units were fully reserved just prior to my becoming a Key dealer. I am hoping to track on down. Thanks! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 18:38:49 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cresson & Gallitzin Questions Continue Jerry & List. Concerning the two loops. If you are going west at UN and you go on the loop to AR as you enter from UN the track to your left(closest to Altoona) is the Altoona loop and the other is the Conemaugh(closest to Cgh.) if I am not mistaken.The Altoona loop is now stub ended at the UN end. Used to store MW and other Equip. The concrete walkway at the fueling area is still visible. To my knowledge helpers were NOT cut off on the fly as a brake test has to be performed on the train. Same with putting them on,not on the move as a brake test had to be made before proceeding east. This from a retired Psgr. Engr. & Cond. Pat McKinney ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:16:00 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cresson & Gallitzin Questions Continue In a message dated 4/16/01 5:52:42 PM Central Daylight Time, PKMac101@aol.com writes: << To my knowledge helpers were NOT cut off on the fly as a brake test has to be performed on the train. >> I assume this is for passenger operation and maybe later freight operation, as there is some video evidence that earlier freight helpers were cut off on the fly. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "RRoader" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Discussion Web Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:27:24 -0400 Hello Jerry, Well, after a few years of "dropping by" to read the dialogue of the PRR-Talk pages today I felt it necessary to apply for membership and post a reply. I must first call attention to the "Guidelines for Participation" which I am sure were well thought by the list moderator and developer. ""PRR-Talk" is an e-mail list for discussion on topics related to the Pennsylvania Railroad, its predecessor and successor lines, addressing both prototype and modeling concerns. This list is owned and maintained by Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. as a service to the railfan community." List Topic "While we encourage occasional discussion on matters peripheral but still related to the topic, we must remind folks that this discussion forum is exclusively about the topic. If you're not sure your post relates to the topic, inquire with the list monitor (listmaster@dsop.com) prior to posting." Assume Responsibility "Since all list subscribers have the power to post directly to the list, this can make for an environment of open and timely discussion as well as an environment where irrelevant and unconstructive comments may accrue. The list monitor(s) will make their best attempt to keep the discussion on track. All list members are requested to conduct themselves in a professional and respectful manner at all times. Please route disputes to private email." As I read Gregg Mahlkov's posting, "I notice the Discussion Web has disappeared from the PRRT&HS website yet again and is once again buried in the Philadelphia chapter website. This is not the best location for assisting non-members seeking information about the PRR. It's just this sort of thing that has convinced me that membership would be a waste of my money." Well I think now he deserves my reply: First his comments, although trivial and unassuming, do not meet the guidelines of this list, for that matter neither do my own. Second, since he has now assumed responsibility for his posting, he can now assume that my reply is forthcoming. Third, had he ever a desire to join the Society he would have done so...no excuses..... and finally had he emailed me, as this list states " Please route disputes to private email" he would have received a reply and the Society Home page would have been corrected.... Since he raised the issue, here is my response, solely my own and in no way one from the PRRT&HS Society. Many of the PRRT&HS viewers have seen by now the number of new pages recently placed onto the PRRTHS Philly Chapter website. In creating these new pages (over 120 new pages in the last few days ) it is necessary to perform the website development work "off-line" before connecting to the web server and uploading new content. Well, "mea culpa" forgive me God, I uploaded older versions of the web site. Had Gregg gone further he would have seen mistakes in a number of other pages. That's it, no further reply necessary. The site was repaired tonight when I returned home from the office soon after I received a message from another subscriber. Thank You for the time, and Thank you to those PRR-TALK list members who offered supportive comments. Steve Agostini ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 19:31:41 -0400 From: "R. Vogel" Subject: [PRR] Safe Harbor sidings Hi, I am curious about the sidings off the Port Road at the Safe Harbor Bridge. The upriver one obviously services the powerplant on the dam, but on the other side of Conestoga creek there is a more mysterious siding (visible on the lower left on page 108 of Trackside Under Pennsy Wires). What was the purpose of this siding? Did it connect with the dam's siding using the bridge over Conestoga Creek located behind and below the Columbia & Port Deposit or was that bridge just for cars and trucks? Also a flume question. What's the upper end of the flumes like? Just a small stream flowing onto it, or was there a concrete or other man made structures channelling the water onto it? Any and all enlightenment will be appreciated. -Bob Vogel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:44:06 EDT Subject: [PRR] Pennsyfication I don't know about the rest of you - but my blood is Tuscan Red (even though a Scot, and not Italian) I joined the PRRT&HS I soon as I heard about it, shortly after the name changed - anyone who can afford a computer and claims to love things Pennsy, should do likewise. Unlike many of you I do remember a bit of the firebreathing steamers: even more frightening, leaking steam at every joint, when they were older and I was younger and the (then) shiny new Diesels - we thought that they would coexist forever - just like the Calandar painting "Working Partners" Ever though I watched and rode the real PRR, much of what I know about it today comes from "The Keystone" - Over the years the best value in Railroad information, not to mention the fun, fellowship and general Pennsyfication of each spring's Convention. This testimonial is from an Ohio guy who's never been more than a Plain Ordinary Member - but loving it. Dick Ross "The Sons of Pullman Porters and the sons of Engineers ride their Father's Magic Carpet Made of Steel" Anymore, it's mostly Grandsons... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] Cresson & Gallitzin Questions Continue Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:52:12 -0400 On the north side of the rock cut just east of UN (approximately where the road leading from the town of Gallitzin to Route 53 passes under the WB mains) there was once a small shanty, snuggled almost underneath the overhanging rock wall. It housed the "cut-off man." That was a 24-hour brakeman's job. The "job" was to cut off helpers. I was in that shanty once not long after the job was abolished. The facilities were "sparse," to say the least. And the noise must have been incredible! Terrry Stuart In a message dated 4/16/01 5:52:42 PM Central Daylight Time, PKMac101@aol.com writes: << To my knowledge helpers were NOT cut off on the fly as a brake test has to be performed on the train. >> I assume this is for passenger operation and maybe later freight operation, as there is some video evidence that earlier freight helpers were cut off on the fly. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:58:09 EDT Subject: [PRR] Classes not saved In a message dated 4/16/01 9:54:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << some of the most interesting and unique PRR steam was never saved from the torch, including the later classes (J-1, Q-1, Q-2, S-1, S-2, T-1 etc.). >> I think the short answer, to the above, was that the J was never considered a Pennsy loco, just a Wartime expedient. The others were embarrassingly unsuccessful. Those that were one of a kind may have been "Autopsied" but the T-1's waited on the scrap line for the final "Trust" payment and many were scrapped the day they were paid off. Very large BAD memories and, even at a "Penny a pound" the scrap dollars must have been important as downpayments on the new Diesel fleet. Oddly, if the coal and water facilities still existed I think that the S-2 and T-1's might have a decent chance with computerized controls....... Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Apparently-From: From: Garry Spear Subject: RE: [PRR] Cresson & Gallitzin Questions Continue Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 21:09:10 -0400 In the mid 60's freight helpers were cut off on the fly. While coming up the mountain the train line extended to the helpers. Cabins were equipped with an extended handle for the brake pipe shut off valve and a chain to the coupler pin. At the desired site the train crew would turn the brake pipe shut off value, pull on the chair lifting the pin, and signal to the helper crew to shut down power. The engineer of the helper would shut off power and the helpers would start to slow down, the brake pipe coupling would extend, the glad hands would part, dumping the train line on the helpers and applying their brakes (emergency service). Thus stopping the helpers. This was sometimes done just before UN and the home signal was used to control the movement of the helpers from that point. Sometimes the helpers stayed on until Cresson where this operation was done. Garry Spear -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com [SMTP:Bobspf@aol.com] Sent: Monday, April 16, 2001 7:16 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Cresson & Gallitzin Questions Continue In a message dated 4/16/01 5:52:42 PM Central Daylight Time, PKMac101@aol.com writes: << To my knowledge helpers were NOT cut off on the fly as a brake test has to be performed on the train. >> I assume this is for passenger operation and maybe later freight operation, as there is some video evidence that earlier freight helpers were cut off on the fly. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] An apology Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 23:26:47 -0400 List:- I apologize to all I offended by making the error of commenting about the PRR T&HS website on this forum. Henceforth I will keep my opinions to myself, except the one that the PRR was the best of the best in its day and am proud I had the opportunity to work for it during its last six years. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 06:26:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] An apology From: Jerry Britton On 4/16/01 11:26 PM, Gregg Mahlkov at (mahlkov@gtcom.net) wrote: > I apologize to all I offended by making the error of commenting about the > PRR T&HS website on this forum. Henceforth I will keep my opinions to > myself, except the one that the PRR was the best of the best in its day and > am proud I had the opportunity to work for it during its last six years. > Folks, that's the way a list is supposed to work! Thank you all for your patience in seeing it end on good terms, and thanks to Gregg for stepping up with his apology. We are a community of over 475 subscribers. As listmaster, I hope such threads either die quickly or end as this one did. By jumping in as listmaster, sometimes that adds fuel to the fire. I did not have to this time. I personally did not think Gregg's post was that bad. But one needs to know what is going on behind the scenes. Until late 1999, the Society had no web site. I commend Bill and Steve for their work in getting it up and maintaining it. For the most part, the web site is a "politics free" endeavor of the Society. It was only the "Discussion Forum" that caused problems, both in name and in implementation. As Bill alluded to, I was involved at the 1998 convention where the initial web site was discussed. I declined involvement as the planned "Discussion Forum" seemed, at least to me, as nothing more than a web-based mailing list...which I felt was un-needed due to "PRR-Talk". (I still feel that way!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:39:50 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Classes not saved Not only were the Qs, Ss, and T1 embarrassingly unsuccessful, the J1 was embarrassingly successful. It was a slightly modified C&O design and one of the best engines the PRR ever ran. I can't help but suspect that as steam on the Pennsy came to an end, there were some people in the Engineering Dept who were anxious to bury the evidence. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== VVA249@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 4/16/01 9:54:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > > << some of the most interesting and unique PRR steam was never saved from the > torch, including the later classes (J-1, Q-1, Q-2, S-1, S-2, T-1 etc.). >> > > I think the short answer, to the above, was that the J was never > considered a Pennsy loco, just a Wartime expedient. The others were > embarrassingly unsuccessful. Those that were one of a kind may have been > "Autopsied" but the T-1's waited on the scrap line for the final "Trust" > payment and many were scrapped the day they were paid off. Very large BAD > memories and, even at a "Penny a pound" the scrap dollars must have been > important as downpayments on the new Diesel fleet. > Oddly, if the coal and water facilities still existed I think that the > S-2 and T-1's might have a decent chance with computerized controls....... > Dick Ross > Cleveland > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:48:20 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Use of "Benny" Interlocking From: Jerry Britton Okay, folks, the "East Slope" question of the day... How was "Benny" interlocking used? Benny was a half interlocking just east of Tunnel Hill, at the base of "The Slide". It was still present in track charts as of 1958 and was removed by Conrail. It allowed westbound trains to move to higher numbered tracks and eastbound trains to move to lower numbered tracks only. I know of two possible uses: 1. Very heavy eastbound mineral trains might be routed to track 3 at MO so as to avoid the steeper downgrade of "The Slide", then route back over to track 1 or 2 at Benny. 2. If there was heavy westbound freight traffic and light traffic eastward, might tracks 3 & 4 have both been used for westbound freight and a westbound passenger routed on track 2 (at Slope or MG) and then crossed back to track 3 at Benny? The above is strictly conjecture. Does anyone agree or offer other uses? In my N scale model, I only have about 15 feet between MG and the beginning of "The Slide". I am thinking about dropping Benny interlocking so I can concentrate on the scenic meandering of The Allegripus (sp.) and other curves. From a modeling operations perspective I won't need it...but I want to know what I am doing away with!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:43:14 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Classes not saved Andy Miller wrote: >Not only were the Qs, Ss, and T1 embarrassingly unsuccessful, the J1 was >embarrassingly successful. It was a slightly modified C&O design and >one of the best engines the PRR ever ran. I can't help but suspect that >as steam on the Pennsy came to an end, there were some people in the >Engineering Dept who were anxious to bury the evidence. Hi Andy, While you are certainly entitled to your opinions , I think that this is a little speculative. Frankly, I find the "bury the evidence" theory implausible. I've never seen any documented evidence that the PRR regarded the J-1 as anything but a PRR engine (in spite of its C&O "history"). As for the "embarrassingly unsuccessful" later locomotives...it depends on what you read. Official PRR documents indicate that the Q-2 was in fact reasonably successful, but fell victim to its high operating expense (compared to diesels). The T-1 appears to be debatable, with sources on both sides of the argument. That is to say that it did what it was supposed to do for the most part (replaced 2 K4s), but that it suffered several problems including wheel slip, and wheelbase issues (lateral motion device problems) and again fell victim to diesel efficiency. The Ss....well OKAY, I'll give you the S-1! However, the turbine was again a mixed bag (and it was EXPERIMENTAL...designed to test ideas...). Additionally, the PRR generated a tremendous amount of "brand recognition" with these locomotives. Heck, its just like the R-1 vs GG-1 debate...read the original documents and look at the data and it was almost a dead heat. However secondary sources choose to call the GG-1 a clear winner! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: [PRR] "Lesser Railroad"s Date: Tue, 17 Apr 101 10:01:07 -0400 (EDT) Guys: a few days back there were a few emails on the topic of the _20th Century Limited_ versus the _Broadway Limited_. One person commented that (paraphrasing) only a "lesser railroad" would leave out a city like Cleveland. This stuck in my craw as an unlikely explanation, but for some reason it took a while for me to figure out the reason why it didn't make sense. Was the _Century_ in fact routed over the Canada Southern? If so, please consider the following: 1. Each railroad had 2 main routings to Chicago. NYC's routings would serve New York, Albany, Rochester, Buffalo, ... and Chicago in either situation. PRR's would serve New York, Philadelphia, Harrisburg, Pittsburgh, ... and Chicago. 2. Shortness of the route was a consideration for both railroads, as neither one was run 3. The variable for PRR was whether to serve Columbus or Fort Wayne. The RR chose the shorter (and bumpier) route through Fort Wayne. 4. The NYC had a choice of serving Erie, Cleveland, and Toledo on the lakefront line - or serving Detroit on the Canadian routing, which had no other cities of note for 99% of its distance. Windsor could easily be ignored (was it?), what with the Michigan Central station a few miles across the Detroit River. 5. So if you have a shorter, faster routing, that avoids 2 small cities, and serves one city (Detroit) that is 3 times the size of the other (Cleveland), which business decision would you make? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:18:51 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Rivarossi / Model Expo From: Jerry Britton For the past few years, Model Expo (www.modelexpoinc.com) has been the sole distributor of new Rivarossi product in the US. They now no longer carry them. Anyone have any ideas where one might find new Rivarossi product? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:43:23 EDT From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] "Lesser Railroad"s Whoa, Mark, The 20th Century Ltd never ran via the CASO, at least on it's regular routing. It's my understanding that Cleveland was bypassed for several reasons: it's station times would not have been particularly desirerable, especially westbound; bypassing C.U.T. saved time and engine changes; and the Forrest City was served by other high-grade trains at reasonable hours. I don't recall the train nane right off, but there was a virtually all-Pullman train heading east around 7 PM which offered very good service, as well as other, later services.Chicago traffic was handled by a heavy sleeper train heading west in the late evening but open much earlier for boarding. Detroit likewise had the all-Pullman Detroiter (at least up well into the 1950's)and the excellant Wolverine and lessor NY Exp to the east. Both Detroit and Cleveland had sections of the Empire State Exp and some very fine trains to Chicago spread out during the day and evening hours. In short, there was little real need for t! he 20th Century to stop in Cleve land. (Just as you'd assume relatively few people rode the Broadway Chi-Pitts or NY-Pittsburgh). None of this indicates, of course, that I'd ride the Central if the Pennsy was going my way, but give the devil his due, as they say. regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 09:53:39 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Safe Harbor sidings Bob Vogel asked: >I am curious about the sidings off the Port Road at the Safe Harbor >Bridge. The upriver one obviously services the powerplant on the dam, >but on the other side of Conestoga creek there is a more mysterious >siding (visible on the lower left on page 108 of Trackside Under Pennsy >Wires). What was the purpose of this siding? Did it connect with the >dam's siding using the bridge over Conestoga Creek located behind and >below the Columbia & Port Deposit or was that bridge just for cars and >trucks? Bob, You asked about my favorite location on the entire PRR! I have a track diagram that clearly spells out where all of the various sidings went. I'll have to remember to scan that in tonight! Additionally, Fred Abendschein drew a map of the area a number of years ago which you can see at: http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/safeharb.jpg For the period that I model, there were additional tracks beyond what Fred has diagrammed. For now, I'll try to describe the track layout in the Safe Harbor area. As noted, the upriver siding serviced the dam. It also serviced the coal dredging operation via a switchback and served the upper level of the dam (see the steam engine on the upper wall in the 2 page panorama from Trackside..). The tail of the siding curved around under the C&PD and A&S bridges, where it divided with one track serving the large transformer facility on the North side of Conestoga Creek and the other track crossed the road bridge to the south side. This track met the siding you have mentioned, which left the Safe Harbor passing track northbound and descended, passing under the C&PD and A&S. These tracks formed a small, 2 track yard on the South side of Conestoga Creek, where coal slurry, dredged off the bottom of the lake, was transferred to hoppers for the trip to the Holtwood coal fired power station. As many as 50 car loads of coal per day were shipped from Safe Harbor to Holtwood! NB that the depiction of this area on my layout page is WRONG as it was drawn prior to my coming across this diagram at the Hagley Museum! >Also a flume question. What's the upper end of the flumes like? Just a >small stream flowing onto it, or was there a concrete or other man made >structures channelling the water onto it? Good question! I'm expecting a video of the flumes from a "lister" so we may be able to anser that (I do know that the flumes were concrete lined and not just steel). In addition, I'm curious as to how the water course was treated on the A&S...culvert or bridge I would think... Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 10:57:26 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] "Lesser Railroads" Sorry, I may have missed some posts on this subject, but the 20th Century Limited seems clearly to have operated via the US, at least most of the time if not always. The January 1930 Official Guide reprint makes this clear; in the Train Services page, the Limited is clearly noted as "Via New York Central." (The trains via Canada did not say this.) The trains also stopped at Elkhart and/or Toledo, which implies it did not run via Detroit. But service to Cleveland is irrelevant; the westbound Century (in 1930 anyway) did not stop for passengers between Buffalo and Elkhart, and the eastbound train did not stop for passengers between Toledo and Albany. In that Guide, the Central advertised that the Century had operated as "2153 trains in the past year" (close to three sections each way every day, on average), carrying more than 240,000 passengers (only 111 per train average, but then they were all in sleepers). John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Brensdale@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:21:14 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Maintenance Yellow List Could some tell what color yellow Pennsy painted there maintenance equipment. I am using Polly Scale Paint or Model Flex. Dale ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:09:32 EDT Subject: [PRR] "Lesser Railroads" vs the Broad Way In a message dated 4/17/01 10:49:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << It's my understanding that Cleveland was bypassed for several reasons: >> I'm presuming that the Broad Way did not stop in Pittsburgh, for many of the same reasons - though there was no electric transfer, there were several bypass routes, that should have been faster. RR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:32:13 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] "Lesser Railroads" vs the Broad Way In a message dated 04/17/2001 14:20:17 Eastern Daylight Time, VVA249@aol.com writes: > << It's my understanding that Cleveland was bypassed for several reasons: >> > > I'm presuming that the Broad Way did not stop in Pittsburgh, for many of the > > same reasons - though there was no electric transfer, there were several > bypass routes, that should have been faster. > Actually, the Broadway's timetable did show a 5 - 8 minute stop in Pittsburgh depending on the Station Time Table issue. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:36:01 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Use of "Benny" Interlocking From: Jerry Britton On 4/17/01 2:26 PM, John Cooper (johncoop@microsoft.com) wrote: > I would suspect a westbound would use the crossover from 3 to 4 at Benny > when a train was entering from the New Portage Branch at SF. > The New Portage Branch enters the main west of Benny (BF), so Benny would have no bearing on a westbound train! A train from the New Portage Branch can go all the way over to 4 within the limits of SF itself. FWIW, SF tower was remoted from AR circa 1932. Not sure when the tower was actually razed, but it was gone by 1950. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Use of "Benny" Interlocking Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:26:05 -0700 From: "John Cooper" Looking at 1948 track diagrams http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_alt_pgh_main.html, I would speculate as follows: Track 3 is/was signalled in both directions for the entire mountain. (from SG in Johnstown at least as far as Slope in Altoona). I would assume that changing the current of traffic eastward for track three would have different effects on the operations depending on which side of the mountain you are on. On the west side, you'd then have 3 uphill tracks, and 1 downhill. On the east side, you'd then have 1 uphill track, and 3 downhill. Certainly there are many factors involved, but my first instinct would be that a dispatcher would find it much more useful to convert a downhill track to uphill, rather than the other way around. If so, then Benny would be an ideal place to end eastward running on 3 and cross back to 1 or 2. On the other hand, this would make one wonder why they wouldn't have installed bi-directional signalling on different tracks for each side of the mountain. It would be interesting to know exactly how often tk 3 was actually used eastward in normal operations. I would suspect a westbound would use the crossover from 3 to 4 at Benny when a train was entering from the New Portage Branch at SF. I doubt 2 was used much for westbound traffic as it was only signalled eastward and would require a train order for such a movement. John > ---------- > From: Jerry Britton[SMTP:jerry@pennsyrr.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 5:48 AM > To: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: [PRR] Use of "Benny" Interlocking > > Okay, folks, the "East Slope" question of the day... > > How was "Benny" interlocking used? > > Benny was a half interlocking just east of Tunnel Hill, at the base of > "The > Slide". It was still present in track charts as of 1958 and was > removed by > Conrail. > > It allowed westbound trains to move to higher numbered tracks and > eastbound > trains to move to lower numbered tracks only. > > I know of two possible uses: > > 1. Very heavy eastbound mineral trains might be routed to track 3 at > MO so > as to avoid the steeper downgrade of "The Slide", then route back over > to > track 1 or 2 at Benny. > > 2. If there was heavy westbound freight traffic and light traffic > eastward, > might tracks 3 & 4 have both been used for westbound freight and a > westbound > passenger routed on track 2 (at Slope or MG) and then crossed back to > track > 3 at Benny? > > The above is strictly conjecture. Does anyone agree or offer other > uses? > > In my N scale model, I only have about 15 feet between MG and the > beginning > of "The Slide". I am thinking about dropping Benny interlocking so I > can > concentrate on the scenic meandering of The Allegripus (sp.) and other > curves. From a modeling operations perspective I won't need it...but I > want > to know what I am doing away with!!! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 15:11:12 EDT From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] "Lesser Railroads" vs the Broad Way Folks, Unlike the 20th Century, the Broadway always showed an unconditional stop in Pittsburgh, at least from the 1950's onward. It's just that it's arrival and departure times, in both directions, were in the 12:15-12:45 AM range and were not real handy for sleeper service on the first half of their trips. This is the reason I don't think many NY-Pitts or Chicago-Pitts passengers were carried. Certainly a person could obtain 'seat service' for that portion of the run, or could board a sleeper at Pittsburgh for the balance of the overnight run. But even then, other trains offered originating Pullmans at Pittsburgh, which were usually open in the 9PM range, which seems more inviting than waiting for a post-midnight train to arrive. (The Broadway, of course, offered no set-out sleepers). Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Maintenance Yellow Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 12:17:47 -0700 If I am not mistaken, Poly Scale actually makes a PRR M/W yellow in the little bottles. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ On Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:21:14 EDT Brensdale@aol.com wrote: > List > Could some tell what color yellow Pennsy painted there > maintenance equipment. > I am using Polly Scale Paint or Model Flex. > Dale > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message > "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 14:59:27 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] G-26 Gon questions Hi All, I was slapping together an ECW kit for the G-26, 65' mill gon (nice kit if you ignore the lack of brake detail, the mold marks and the uneven sides) and a couple of questions popped into what passes for my brain... 1) What year were these built? 2) Appropriate trucks (1944)? 3) Anybody got an underbody shot or diagram? The ECW arrangement looks a little hoky, including the triple valve right next to the center sill (?) TIA Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "m mcm" Subject: Re: [PRR] "Lesser Railroad"s Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 17:21:21 -0400 Mark; At least as far as going through Erie, the 20th Century was routed through Erie. (LS&MS) Mike Tronetti ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Bej" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 10:08 AM Subject: [PRR] "Lesser Railroad"s > > Guys: > > a few days back there were a few emails on the topic of the _20th Century > Limited_ versus the _Broadway Limited_. > > One person commented that (paraphrasing) only a "lesser railroad" would > leave out a city like Cleveland. This stuck in my craw as an unlikely > explanation, but for some reason it took a while for me to figure out > the reason why it didn't make sense. > > Was the _Century_ in fact routed over the Canada Southern? If so, please > consider the following: > > 1. Each railroad had 2 main routings to Chicago. NYC's routings would serve > New York, Albany, Rochester, Buffalo, ... and Chicago in either situation. > PRR's would serve New York, Philadelphia, Harrisburg, Pittsburgh, ... > and Chicago. > > 2. Shortness of the route was a consideration for both railroads, as neither > one was run > > 3. The variable for PRR was whether to serve Columbus or Fort Wayne. The > RR chose the shorter (and bumpier) route through Fort Wayne. > > 4. The NYC had a choice of serving Erie, Cleveland, and Toledo on the lakefront > line - or serving Detroit on the Canadian routing, which had no other > cities of note for 99% of its distance. Windsor could easily be ignored > (was it?), what with the Michigan Central station a few miles across the > Detroit River. > > 5. So if you have a shorter, faster routing, that avoids 2 small cities, and > serves one city (Detroit) that is 3 times the size of the other (Cleveland), > which business decision would you make? > > -- > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 17:17:18 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Classes not saved In a message dated 4/17/01 9:51:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << Heck, its just like the R-1 vs GG-1 debate. >> So, why wasn't the T-1 a DD-2 or the R-2 (The S-1 & S-2 were regarded as the same wheel arrangement) and shouldn't the Q-2 have been a GD-1 - or were both really 4-10-4's ? :-) RR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 17:54:01 -0400 From: "R. Vogel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Safe Harbor sidings Hi, Thanks to all who replied. Very enlightening. Bruce - Let us know what your flume video reveals. I am planning to include some of this dramatic area in the layout I'm building. Right now the benchwork is up but not the subroadbed where the tracks will be. Visitors don't really understand it or the hobby in general until I show them them James Shuman's Trackside photos. Then they get it. -Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Use of "Benny" Interlocking Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 11:52:21 -0700 From: "John Cooper" Yes, I understand these points. But I was talking about simultaneous westbound moves through the area. If a train is entering from the New Portage Branch, and a westbound from MG is due on track 3 at the same time, then you need the 3/4 crossover at Benny to have simultanious moves. Remember the PRR went to great expense all over their system to enable simultanious moves. John > ---------- > From: Jerry Britton[SMTP:jerry@pennsyrr.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 11:36 AM > To: John Cooper; PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: Re: [PRR] Use of "Benny" Interlocking > > On 4/17/01 2:26 PM, John Cooper (johncoop@microsoft.com) wrote: > > > I would suspect a westbound would use the crossover from 3 to 4 at > Benny > > when a train was entering from the New Portage Branch at SF. > > > The New Portage Branch enters the main west of Benny (BF), so Benny > would > have no bearing on a westbound train! > > A train from the New Portage Branch can go all the way over to 4 > within the > limits of SF itself. > > FWIW, SF tower was remoted from AR circa 1932. Not sure when the tower > was > actually razed, but it was gone by 1950. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steven Bundick" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR marine ops Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 19:01:26 -0400 Geoffrey- On Delmarva, the tracks really didn't skirt along the ocean or bay until a terminus was reached. The primary terminus on Delmarva was at Cape Charles. Cars were orignally barged from there to Norfolk, and later to Little Creek near Norfolk. In addition to the barges, there were passenger steamers and car ferries that terminated and originated next to the railroad facilities at Cape Charles. I wouldn't call the town a fishing village, but the town supported the seafood industry like other towns on the shore. There is a light house at the actual cape, which is several miles from the actual town. The book "Rails Along the Chesapeake" by John Hayman is the primary reference for Delmarva railroading, and has information on the rail-water terminals. An excellent work on the PRR barge and marine operations between Cape Charles and Norfolk can be found in the Summer 1993 Keystone. Included in the article are some technical drawings of the carfloats, as well as track charts of Little Creek and Cape Charles. -Steve -----Original Message----- From: Geoffrey Van Dooren To: PRR talk list Cc: bubbles@visi.net Date: Saturday, April 14, 2001 8:48 AM Subject: [PRR] PRR marine ops >Hey, >I am interested in modeling a PRR scene along the >Delmarva or the main line between Baltimore and >Philly. >Does the tracks come near the ocean or the bay? Were >there lighthouses, fishervillages, other marine >activeties next to these routes? >Are there pictures online off PRR steamboats, tugs and >carfloat? >Thanks, >Geoffrey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] E60CP conversion Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 19:30:15 -0400 Howdy Norm: A long time ago American GK made an E60CF, E60CP and Amfleet cars. I checked my Walthers Catalog of 1982 and found them listed there. They are basically a shell over an Athearn drive. As I recall my E60CF pulls like any other dual flywheel 6 axel Athearn. I forget if they received good reviews or not. Don't know what ever became of American GK, but the molds should be around somewhere on somebody's shelf. Sounds like a good reason to get to that next train show and check out all the tables! Cos Wayne S. Betty President Cos Communications, Inc. Home Page Rail Road Pages Subject: [PRR] E60CP conversion This is a little off topic but one of you PRR modelers may model a modern PRR. Has anyone converted a Bachman E60CP using an Athearn drive? If so what did you use? Thanks, Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] Safe Harbor sidings Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 20:05:42 -0400 Having spent just a little bit of time along the C&PD and A&S from Turkey Point to the first flume (going south), as I remember they are concrete lined, with the stream coming under the A&S in a typical PRR masonry tunnel and a channel between the tunnel and the flume. I do have a picture somewhere, but no idea where it is, I just spent an hour looking for it, but can't find it right now. Cos Cos Communications, Inc. Home Page Rail Road Pages Subject: [PRR] Safe Harbor sidings Hi, Also a flume question. What's the upper end of the flumes like? Just a small stream flowing onto it, or was there a concrete or other man made structures channelling the water onto it? Any and all enlightenment will be appreciated. -Bob Vogel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Apparently-From: From: Garry Spear Subject: RE: [PRR] Cresson & Gallitzin Questions Continue Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 20:24:07 -0400 >>Snip In a message dated 4/16/01 5:52:42 PM Central Daylight Time, PKMac101@aol.com writes: << To my knowledge helpers were NOT cut off on the fly as a brake test has to be performed on the train. >> >>Snip Not true in the middle 1960s. Cars or engines could be droped (from the backend) from the train with out a break test. I rode helpers out of Altoona on a regular basis for 5 years and watched them cut off on the fly amny times. I believe this stopped in the late 1960s. Garry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Apparently-From: From: Garry Spear Subject: RE: [PRR] Use of "Benny" Interlocking Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 20:44:10 -0400 Heavy mineral trains did use track three to benny and cross back to 1 or 2. I was on trains that did this. Coming down the mountain more tracks were needed than going up the mountain. Down hill speeds were very slow and timed. Timers were used between AR and Alto on every train. Failure to use the minimum time was a major problem for the engineer. Garry Spear -----Original Message----- From: John Cooper [SMTP:johncoop@microsoft.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 2:26 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST; Jerry Britton Subject: RE: [PRR] Use of "Benny" Interlocking Looking at 1948 track diagrams http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_alt_pgh_main.html, I would speculate as follows: Track 3 is/was signalled in both directions for the entire mountain. (from SG in Johnstown at least as far as Slope in Altoona). I would assume that changing the current of traffic eastward for track three would have different effects on the operations depending on which side of the mountain you are on. On the west side, you'd then have 3 uphill tracks, and 1 downhill. On the east side, you'd then have 1 uphill track, and 3 downhill. Certainly there are many factors involved, but my first instinct would be that a dispatcher would find it much more useful to convert a downhill track to uphill, rather than the other way around. If so, then Benny would be an ideal place to end eastward running on 3 and cross back to 1 or 2. On the other hand, this would make one wonder why they wouldn't have installed bi-directional signalling on different tracks for each side of the mountain. It would be interesting to know exactly how often tk 3 was actually used eastward in normal operations. I would suspect a westbound would use the crossover from 3 to 4 at Benny when a train was entering from the New Portage Branch at SF. I doubt 2 was used much for westbound traffic as it was only signalled eastward and would require a train order for such a movement. John > ---------- > From: Jerry Britton[SMTP:jerry@pennsyrr.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 5:48 AM > To: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: [PRR] Use of "Benny" Interlocking > > Okay, folks, the "East Slope" question of the day... > > How was "Benny" interlocking used? > > Benny was a half interlocking just east of Tunnel Hill, at the base of > "The > Slide". It was still present in track charts as of 1958 and was > removed by > Conrail. > > It allowed westbound trains to move to higher numbered tracks and > eastbound > trains to move to lower numbered tracks only. > > I know of two possible uses: > > 1. Very heavy eastbound mineral trains might be routed to track 3 at > MO so > as to avoid the steeper downgrade of "The Slide", then route back over > to > track 1 or 2 at Benny. > > 2. If there was heavy westbound freight traffic and light traffic > eastward, > might tracks 3 & 4 have both been used for westbound freight and a > westbound > passenger routed on track 2 (at Slope or MG) and then crossed back to > track > 3 at Benny? > > The above is strictly conjecture. Does anyone agree or offer other > uses? > > In my N scale model, I only have about 15 feet between MG and the > beginning > of "The Slide". I am thinking about dropping Benny interlocking so I > can > concentrate on the scenic meandering of The Allegripus (sp.) and other > curves. From a modeling operations perspective I won't need it...but I > want > to know what I am doing away with!!! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:30:45 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Cresson & Gallitzin Questions Continue PKMac101@aol.com wrote: > > helpers were NOT cut off on the fly. The Pennsylvania Public Utility Commission issued regulations governing when rear-end helper locomotives could cut off on the fly and when they could not. If the total helper horsepower exceeded 3,000, a train was required to come to a stop. Otherwise, cutting off on the fly was permitted anywhere in the state by any railroad. On my first visit to Gallitzin, I saw a single PRR AF27 (Alco C-628) helper cut off on the fly right in front of me. This took place a few hundred feet east of UN. Dan Cupper cupper@worldnet.att.net Romans 10:9-10 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:31:42 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Cresson & Gallitzin Questions Continue PKMac101@aol.com wrote: > > helpers were NOT cut off on the fly. The Pennsylvania Public Utility Commission issued regulations governing when rear-end helper locomotives could cut off on the fly and when they could not. If the total helper horsepower exceeded 3,000, a train was required to come to a stop. Otherwise, cutting off on the fly was permitted anywhere in the state by any railroad. On my first visit to Gallitzin, I saw a single PRR AF27 (Alco C-628) helper cut off on the fly right in front of me. This took place a few hundred feet east of UN. Dan Cupper cupper@worldnet.att.net Romans 10:9-10 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:48:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: RE: [PRR] E60CP conversion On Tue, 17 Apr 2001, Wayne S. Betty wrote: > Howdy Norm: > A long time ago American GK made an E60CF, E60CP and Amfleet cars. I > checked my Walthers Catalog of 1982 and found them listed there. They are > basically a shell over an Athearn drive. As I recall my E60CF pulls like > any other dual flywheel 6 axel Athearn. I forget if they received good > reviews or not. > Don't know what ever became of American GK, but the molds should be around > somewhere on somebody's shelf. Walthers ran them for a while and I think the molds are now for sale. But, this probably doesn't belong here -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 23:26:07 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Pennsy S Models X 29 project Hi All, The Pennsy S Models website www.pennsysmodels.com has just been updated with the latest news of our brass PRR X29 project. While we have been quiet lately, we have not been inactive. We are fulfilling our promise to deliver the "spare no details" model that we said we would. Dan and I would like to thank our customers for their patience while we were waiting for a production slot. Please stop by the website and feel free to email us with any questions. Thank You Bill Lane Dan Mastrobuono Pennsy S Models "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Pennsy S Models X 29 project Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 23:26:07 -0400 Hi All, The Pennsy S Models website www.pennsysmodels.com has just been updated with the latest news of our brass PRR X29 project. While we have been quiet lately, we have not been inactive. We are fulfilling our promise to deliver the "spare no details" model that we said we would. Dan and I would like to thank our customers for their patience while we were waiting for a production slot. Please stop by the website and feel free to email us with any questions. Thank You Bill Lane Dan Mastrobuono Pennsy S Models ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 23:33:38 -0400 From: "Michael A. Hmel" Subject: [PRR] Broadway limited via Pittsburgh ! Hi list , The Broadway limited did stop in Pittsburgh . I got on it as a boy several times in the mid sixties . I remember going to the station late and waiting for the train to pull in . Actually a lot of people got on in Pittsburgh from what I can recall . It got you into Gotham at sunrise . We never got a sleeper , I'm sure if one was available we would have . My father was a "lifer" on the PRR and we spent a lot of time in the summer on the rails . We did however use the B&O to Washington DC because my father didn't want to make a change in Harrisburg . B&O was a direct trip departing from the P&LE Station on the South Side . We always got a sleeper to DC and to tell you the truth it was an incredible experience . Click- etee-clack and crossing bells all the way to DC . Sort of like Christmas eve it was hard top sleep ! Speaking of DC , does anyone have pic's , info or website locations that discuss the GG1 run away that ended up in the basement of the station . My father was on a wreck train that spent some time getting it out of the basement . Unfortunity he passed away several years ago and his experience on the PRR went with him . George Elwood suggested the NTSB web site and this address ;( http://specialcollections.tasc.dot.gov ) to get some info but I can't get it to open . Thanks , Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 21:13:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: RE: [PRR] May issue of trains Wayne, list, I don't doubt that the 1223 was too light for most of the SRR's trains (the Road to Paradise says pretty much exactly that), but I recall reading in Trains or Railpace around 1990 that both the 1223 and the 7002 (actually 8063, but let me get off my soapbox) were retired because tests revealed the fireboxes of both engines were below the legal limits of thickness and would require rebuilding or retirement. On one of my trips to the RR Museum of PA, I talked to one of the volunteers who was of the opinion that both engines were quite repairable, but there was some dispute between the museum and the SRR about the duration of the lease; the SRR was apparently preferring a 10 year lease on each engine, while the museum wanted a 1 year lease, which would have made the firebox repairs unaffordable for the SRR. This is just one person's opinion, and may be apocryphal. Please don't infer that I condemn either the museum or the SRR; I am a big fan of both organizations, and I'm very glad that the relationship between the two is symbiotic! One of the many reasons I'm a Pennsy fan is that I saw the 1223 in action numerous times at Strasburg; I would love to see her (and the 8063) run again! Doug --- "Wayne S. Betty" wrote: > Howdy List: > Here is a shot of 7002 on one of her two major > mainline outings in the 80's > http://www.wsbcos.com/prr7002.jpg at the Lancaster > PA train station. > The Strasburg had a problem, the 1223 was too light > to handle most of the > SRR's trains and the 7002 was in need of some major > work. Since the SRR did > not own but leased both locomotives from the State, > it was felt that a > better investment of their monies was in their own > equipment. From that we > have the retirement of 1223 and 7002 and the arrival > or ex NW 475. > > Cos > > Cos Communications, Inc. > Home Page > Rail Road Pages > > > Subject: Re: [PRR] May issue of trains > > Geoff:- > > The bridge and the catenary towers are unchanged at > Havre de Grace. The > catenary on the corridor has been reworked but looks > virtually the same as > it did in the PRR era. The Strasburg Railroad has 2 > PRR steam locomotives, > 4-4-2 No. 7002, and 4-4-0 No. 1223 that have > operated recently but I > understand need work to operate again. 4-6-2 No. > 1361, the K4s, is being > restored to operating conditionfor main line > operation. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > Subject: [PRR] May issue of trains > > > > Hi, > > on page 53 of the May issue of trains is a picture > of > > Havre de grace. Is this bridge built by the PRR, > and > > is the catenary still the same? Especially the > lower > > poles left to the sun. > > Since the made an article on restorted steam and > > tourist railroads -especially that nice article on > the > > C&TS p.36-45- WHY isn't their an operating Pennsy > > steamer or Pennsy tourist line? > > Geoffrey > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the > message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 04:14:57 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Classes not saved --- VVA249@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/17/01 9:51:45 AM Eastern > Daylight Time, > smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > > << Heck, its just like the R-1 vs GG-1 debate. >> > > So, why wasn't the T-1 a DD-2 or the R-2 (The S-1 & > S-2 were regarded as the > same wheel arrangement) and shouldn't the Q-2 have > been a GD-1 - or were > both really > 4-10-4's ? > The usual explanation is that since the T-1, S-1, Q-1, & Q-2 weren't articulated, PRR viewed them as 4-8-4, 6-8-6, 4-10-4, and 4-10-4. That does suggest that the T-1 "should have been" R-2 or R-5 or some such since the R-1 had previously associated "R" with 4-8-4. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 08:08:38 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Classes not saved Two Points for discussion: 1. 15 years ago I cam across a Baldwin erection drawing for a PRR R-1 proposal which was for a 4-8-4 Steam Turbine locomotive in a T-1 shroud. I gave the drawing to Bill Withume of the Smithsonian. Maybe he can produse it for discussion. The drawing actually said Class R-1 on it and had the turbine shown just like the S-2. 2. I do not think the missing classes should be viewed as "embarassments". What other Railroad or indusrial organization spent so much time, money, and or effort to try to take Steam or any other 19th Century technology to its next level by attempting to improve efficiency, achieve lower operating costs, and use a fuel resource that was on-line, company owned, and available in untold quantities. The PRR should be commended for its efforts. If it took place in today,s government enviroment the PRR would have been the receipient of untold jillions of Federal funds just for the effort. Maybe the folks at Broad Street were visionaries, but the times were not ripe for their vision. Just look at the resurgance of "Light-Rail" in this country 50 years after GM, Firestone, and Esso (National City Lines) ripped it all out and were only fined $1 by a Federal judge! (I bet he got a free Cadillac, Free Tires and Free Gas). Maybe those who were responsible for saving what was saved saw it in it's historical context and the newer stuff was just scrap to be sold to buy diesels! For an engineering perspective the PRR was most inovative industrial enterprise in this nation. Give credit where credit is due! They were, "THE GREATEST"! robert netzlof wrote: > > --- VVA249@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 4/17/01 9:51:45 AM Eastern > > Daylight Time, > > smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: > > > > << Heck, its just like the R-1 vs GG-1 debate. >> > > > > So, why wasn't the T-1 a DD-2 or the R-2 (The S-1 & > > S-2 were regarded as the > > same wheel arrangement) and shouldn't the Q-2 have > > been a GD-1 - or were > > both really > > 4-10-4's ? > > > > The usual explanation is that since the T-1, S-1, Q-1, > & Q-2 weren't articulated, PRR viewed them as 4-8-4, > 6-8-6, 4-10-4, and 4-10-4. That does suggest that the > T-1 "should have been" R-2 or R-5 or some such since > the R-1 had previously associated "R" with 4-8-4. > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 09:05:48 -0400 From: Steve Hanlon Subject: [PRR] RE: Use of "Benny" Interlocking after looking at the track diagram i realized the use of benny. if you have a slow moving eastbound train, it could be passed by using track 2 then routed back to track 1, or it could get routed thru gallitzin tunnel and then back over to 1 or 2. if the slow eastbound train used the new portage secondary, it would require this type of routing as well. benny would be used if while the eastbounder was exiting onto the new portage secondary, a westbounder was coming off the new portage secondary. this would tie-up 1 and 3 and make BF an exciting place to watch the hot trains move thru. for westward movements, the same applys. slow moving trains could be passed and then routed back to 3 and 4 to clear the eastward mains for downgrade traffic. To not model this is simply a matter of preference, since the deciding factor would be if you modeled the new portage secondary and ran multiple trains. if you do, you'll still need a dispatcher who is up to the tasks of handling several switch moves, clearing signals and blocks, and finally planning ahead. if i were modeling the PRR from the curve to cresson, i would have to include benny, if only to keep the prototype intact. i would not model the new portage as an active line, but would use it as a hidden staging yard lead. it would make for some great operation and some tense moments while 3 or 4 trains passed at SF. that would be something to see, even in N scale (which i can barely see :P) -steve hanlon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 09:18:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Use of "Benny" Interlocking From: Jerry Britton On 4/18/01 9:05 AM, Steve Hanlon (steveh@mth-railking.com) wrote: > if i were modeling the PRR from the curve to cresson, i would have to > include benny, if only to keep the prototype intact. i would not model the > new portage as an active line, but would use it as a hidden staging yard > lead. it would make for some great operation and some tense moments while > 3 or 4 trains passed at SF. that would be something to see, even in N > scale (which i can barely see :P) > I will be including Benny, now that I have figured out exactly where it is located. My Bennington Curve is a 90-degree corner in my room. That's also about the angle of the prototype. I thought Benny (interlocking) was between this point and MG, where my space is limited. However, Benny is located immediately west of Bennington Curve, before The Slide begins. I will have room for it there. I was also pleased to learn, in "Altoona Action", that the coal operation connecting into SF at the east end of the portals was still active until 1954!!! Don't know how I'll use it, but it is nice to know! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 08:50:05 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Safe Harbor sidings Hello all, I have scanned the tracing of the Safe Harbor complex and put it up on the web, both as a GIF and as a JPEG. The latest date on the tracing is 1939. http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/safehar.gif http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/BFSpages/PRR/safehar.jpeg I am pretty sure that coal was being loaded at that time at Safe Harbor, but the operation was signicantly altered in the 1950s when new dredges and other equipment was purchased. I'm not sure where the coal was actually loaded and looking over the diagram last night, it occurred to me that the the loader could be on the siding leg that appears to go back under the the A&S trestle, just to the south of the connecting siding to the C&PD. BTW, you can see a track in this location in some early photos of the A&S so it looks as if it has been there for awhile...The loading operation would make sense if this siding were slightly elevated as a train from Holtwood could pull all the way in, drop its cabin just shy of the turnout, back up the siding shoving its cars, retieve the cabin and stick it on the cars in the siding, and then the loco could leave. When the cars were filled, they could be run out onto the siding by gravity, the loco would couple on, and the head back to Holtwood (running backwards or the loco could turn using the connecting track over Conestoga Creek as a wye...however, there are no turning tracks at Holtwood that I am aware of...). Power for this was almost certainly a 2-8-0 for most of the years of operation. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 08:52:20 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Safe Harbor sidings Evan said: > Remember a Sunday afternoon in the spring of 58 when our hiking club had an >outing that ended with a tour of the dam. The was an 0-6-0 tank engine with >the Penna. Power & Light lettering on it and two hoppers coupled to it. At >the time I could not figure out what a hydro-electric plant was doing with >coal and the guide was none the wiser either. Thanks for unraveling an old >mystery. Cool! To make matters more interesting, the loco at Safe Harbor was most likely a tank engine, but PP&L kept a "fireless cooker" at Holtwood to shift the cars there. I need drawings/photographs of BOTH! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 11:08:35 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Classes not saved From: John Sheets Considering the financial position of the PRR during the late 50's and 60's, not to mention the PC administration that inherited the "collection", let's be thankful they saved what they did and that it survives! Remember, there are many other roads with NOTHING saved! John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 12:20:51 -0400 Subject: [PRR] East Slope Interlockings From: Jerry Britton In looking at the AR / UN/ SF/ BF interlocking diagram on Mark Bej's site, one can't help but notice how close together some of these interlockings are...which has me asking this, as an example: If you are a westbound train (track 3 or 4, doesn't matter), you travel through BF ("Benny"). You immediately hit SF. There are no distant signals for SF. Do the home signals for BF also act as distant signals for SF? This would be helpful, since on my layout I really don't want to add too many signal bridges. Heck, at that point I might as well put it all under catenary!!! I also noted that track 3 is indeed signalled for an eastbound, confirming yesterday's discussion about heavier eastbounds taking this route to avoid The Slide. There is a home signal for SF immediately as an eastbound exits the tunnel on track 3. A train on this route has to be routed this way back at MO. I noted that the first eastbound signal bridge on track 3 in AR territory shows the aspect as being controlled by MO. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: [PRR] Rivarossi Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 18:43:03 +0100 Believe it or not Rivarossi/Lima/Jouef are an Italian Nationalised Company... They have a reputation in Europe of being not very good at supply. I believe that they would supply shops in the US direct their web page is at: http://www.rivarossi.com/ Patrick Grace ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:45:23 EDT Subject: [PRR] Mittner's F3 For all of you who think that G scale is just for garden railways and are just toys...take a look at what Gary Mittner has done with a little effort. He is only the second person I have run across that thinks of G scale the same as most of us think in O, HO, or N. They can be made prototypical and his efforts certainly show it. So for all you people out there who have dabbled in G or want to, just take a look at the Photo Gallery on our website (www.trainstuffllc.com). Gary also has these parts for sale and I'm sure he will help with any questions on doing the upgrade. Dayna ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 13:55:53 -0400 From: "R. Vogel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Safe Harbor sidings Good afternoon all, Back on page 108 of Trackside, the engine on the dam/powerplant siding does indeed look a bit chubby. -Bob Vogel > Cool! To make matters more interesting, the loco at Safe Harbor was most > likely a tank engine, but PP&L kept a "fireless cooker" at Holtwood to > shift the cars there. I need drawings/photographs of BOTH! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] East Slope Interlockings Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:09:30 -0700 From: "John Cooper" > ---------- > From: Jerry Britton[SMTP:jerry@pennsyrr.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 9:20 AM > To: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: [PRR] East Slope Interlockings > > If you are a westbound train (track 3 or 4, doesn't matter), you > travel > through BF ("Benny"). You immediately hit SF. There are no distant > signals > for SF. Do the home signals for BF also act as distant signals for SF? > Correct. And likewise for eastward movement on track 3, 38L at SF would act as the distant for Benny. > I also noted that track 3 is indeed signalled for an eastbound, > confirming > yesterday's discussion about heavier eastbounds taking this route to > avoid > The Slide. There is a home signal for SF immediately as an eastbound > exits > the tunnel on track 3. A train on this route has to be routed this way > back > at MO. I noted that the first eastbound signal bridge on track 3 in AR > territory shows the aspect as being controlled by MO. > I assume you are talking about 22L controlled by MO. That signal, along with automatics 2504 are actually mounted on the same signal bridge as MO's westward home signals. (See the MO diagram) So it's shown on the AR map but it's really an MO exit signal. It seems the PRR put exit signals in occasionally when exiting to bi-directionally signalled track. I don't know why, but it possibly might have simplified the interlocking logic in the lever machine. Morris tower near Trenton is another example of this. Notice 22L has an open arc instead of a filled in one. This indicates that it behaves as an automatic signal when lined. "Fleeted" in the modern parlance. It will display an indication whenever the signal lever is pulled. Had the arc been filled in, then you only get an indication for one train. The operator would have to restore the lever and pull it again for each movement. John----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Use of "Benny" Interlocking Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 10:24:01 -0700 From: "John Cooper" Where did your train cross over to use 3 eastward? MO or earlier? Do you recall how often 3 was used eastward in general? I assume you were/are an engineer/brakeman/conductor? John > ---------- > From: Garry Spear[SMTP:garrettspear@yahoo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 5:44 PM > To: John Cooper; PRR-Talk LIST; Jerry Britton > Subject: RE: [PRR] Use of "Benny" Interlocking > > Heavy mineral trains did use track three to benny and cross back to 1 > or 2. > I was on trains that did this. > > Coming down the mountain more tracks were needed than going up the > mountain. Down hill speeds were very slow and timed. Timers were > used > between AR and Alto on every train. Failure to use the minimum time > was a > major problem for the engineer. > > Garry Spear > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Cooper [SMTP:johncoop@microsoft.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 2:26 PM > To: PRR-Talk LIST; Jerry Britton > Subject: RE: [PRR] Use of "Benny" Interlocking > > Looking at 1948 track diagrams > http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_alt_pgh_main.html > , > I would speculate as follows: > > Track 3 is/was signalled in both directions for the entire mountain. > (from SG in Johnstown at least as far as Slope in Altoona). I would > assume that changing the current of traffic eastward for track three > would have different effects on the operations depending on which side > of the mountain you are on. On the west side, you'd then have 3 > uphill > tracks, and 1 downhill. On the east side, you'd then have 1 uphill > track, and 3 downhill. Certainly there are many factors involved, but > my first instinct would be that a dispatcher would find it much more > useful to convert a downhill track to uphill, rather than the other > way > around. If so, then Benny would be an ideal place to end eastward > running on 3 and cross back to 1 or 2. On the other hand, this would > make one wonder why they wouldn't have installed bi-directional > signalling on different tracks for each side of the mountain. It > would > be interesting to know exactly how often tk 3 was actually used > eastward > in normal operations. > > I would suspect a westbound would use the crossover from 3 to 4 at > Benny > when a train was entering from the New Portage Branch at SF. > > I doubt 2 was used much for westbound traffic as it was only signalled > eastward and would require a train order for such a movement. > > John > > > ---------- > > From: Jerry Britton[SMTP:jerry@pennsyrr.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 5:48 AM > > To: PRR-Talk LIST > > Subject: [PRR] Use of "Benny" Interlocking > > > > Okay, folks, the "East Slope" question of the day... > > > > How was "Benny" interlocking used? > > > > Benny was a half interlocking just east of Tunnel Hill, at the base > of > > "The > > Slide". It was still present in track charts as of 1958 and was > > removed by > > Conrail. > > > > It allowed westbound trains to move to higher numbered tracks and > > eastbound > > trains to move to lower numbered tracks only. > > > > I know of two possible uses: > > > > 1. Very heavy eastbound mineral trains might be routed to track 3 at > > MO so > > as to avoid the steeper downgrade of "The Slide", then route back > over > > to > > track 1 or 2 at Benny. > > > > 2. If there was heavy westbound freight traffic and light traffic > > eastward, > > might tracks 3 & 4 have both been used for westbound freight and a > > westbound > > passenger routed on track 2 (at Slope or MG) and then crossed back > to > > track > > 3 at Benny? > > > > The above is strictly conjecture. Does anyone agree or offer other > > uses? > > > > In my N scale model, I only have about 15 feet between MG and the > > beginning > > of "The Slide". I am thinking about dropping Benny interlocking so I > > can > > concentrate on the scenic meandering of The Allegripus (sp.) and > other > > curves. From a modeling operations perspective I won't need it...but > I > > want > > to know what I am doing away with!!! > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > Free serving of railroad web sites > > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > Join our SPF database at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "GAS" Subject: [PRR] O scale Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 16:11:56 -0400 I wonder how many O scaler's on the list would be interested in an importer doing the early pennsy engines, i.e. the D16sb, E2, the K2 or the K28? How about early wood coaches like the broadway limited ones Westerfield is doing and the ones at the museum? --Greg Stone PRRT&HS member special interest the Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lmatt" Subject: Re: [PRR] Safe Harbor sidings Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 16:27:09 -0400 Dear List: I remember (from childhood) narrow gage trackage and a narrow gage 0-4-0 saddle tank steamer rusting away on the Safe Harbor dam that was locked into the siding as it no longer connected with anything. There used to be several gasoline powered critters, too, that ran. These were remnants of the construction company's railroad used to build the dam. We used to call it the "dam railroad", a daring venture for a kid in the late 40's and early 50's. :-) How much of this system is still in existance? Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. Vogel" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 1:55 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Safe Harbor sidings > Good afternoon all, > > Back on page 108 of Trackside, the engine on the dam/powerplant siding > does indeed look a bit chubby. > > -Bob Vogel > > > Cool! To make matters more interesting, the loco at Safe Harbor was most > > likely a tank engine, but PP&L kept a "fireless cooker" at Holtwood to > > shift the cars there. I need drawings/photographs of BOTH! > > > > Happy Rails > > Bruce > > > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > > __ > > / \ > > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Locomotives Not Saved Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 16:51:26 -0400 I think one of the traps PRR fell into on the late steam locomotives was insufficient testing before building multiple copies of a locomotive. The Pennsy really wrung out earlier steam before they built them in numbers. And even then, if they found problems, they had the luxury of time to correct them. An example was the I-1. The first models wouldn't run faster than about 25 mph due to steam pipes and valves that were too small, and they ran out of steam. This was corrected, and made the I-1 an awesome brute that could get up to 50 mph if the engineer and fireman were brave enough! The rigid frame duplexes were so stiff that any irregularity in track, especially over turnouts or crossings, caused one set of wheels to lift and spin wildly. One would have to think they would have somehow corrected this over time. I doubt they would have articulated the locomotives, but I would think they would have changed the suspension and equalization to permit significant vertical movement of one engine without lifting the wheels of the other engine off the track. Just a case of too late in the game to have sufficient time. Even if the late model locomotives had been perfect, they still would have fallen way short of matching the operating costs of diesels. Just one man's opinion. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. & downtown Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: [PRR] PRR Steam Locomotive Availability Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 16:55:19 -0400 I have seen numbers showing that NKP and N&W were very good at keeping locomotives out on the line pulling trains. I believe the number used was ratio of availability in percent or something like that. But I have heard that PRR was even better than NKP or N&W, but I've not been able to find any comparable numbers. How did Pennsy rate in this area compared to these and other roads? Which railroads were really the best at keeping their steam locomotives up and running? Where did Pennsy rate in the overall list? Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. & downtown Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 17:11:31 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Locomotives Not Saved The new book "Set Up Running" has some wonderful insight into the I-1 in its early days. It is highly recommended excellent reading. Bill Bigler wrote: > > I think one of the traps PRR fell into on the late steam locomotives was > insufficient testing before building multiple copies of a locomotive. The > Pennsy really wrung out earlier steam before they built them in numbers. > And even then, if they found problems, they had the luxury of time to > correct them. An example was the I-1. The first models wouldn't run faster > than about 25 mph due to steam pipes and valves that were too small, and > they ran out of steam. This was corrected, and made the I-1 an awesome > brute that could get up to 50 mph if the engineer and fireman were brave > enough! > > The rigid frame duplexes were so stiff that any irregularity in track, > especially over turnouts or crossings, caused one set of wheels to lift and > spin wildly. One would have to think they would have somehow corrected this > over time. I doubt they would have articulated the locomotives, but I would > think they would have changed the suspension and equalization to permit > significant vertical movement of one engine without lifting the wheels of > the other engine off the track. Just a case of too late in the game to have > sufficient time. Even if the late model locomotives had been perfect, they > still would have fallen way short of matching the operating costs of > diesels. > > Just one man's opinion. > > Bill Bigler > Big Flats NY > Modeling PRR Renovo Div. & > downtown Williamsport WWII > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 17:58:45 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: [PRR] HAHN VOL #1 One copy of the first HAHN ALCO RS book exists at Trains LTD LLC in Charlotte NC. 1-800-364-3453 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 19:56:04 -0400 From: Dale Dembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] O scale I'm waiting for MTH trains to start a series of museum locos/cars in O. Anyone interested in #7002 pulling a string of early PRR passenger cars - all copied from the RR museum of PA holdings? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:23:37 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] O scale I for one would kill to see M.T.H. do a model of 7002 ! I just picked up there Railking M1a a few weeks back and am very impressed with it (and M.T.H. as well) ! ! Jon S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:38:45 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] O scale JONS6755@aol.com wrote: > > I for one would kill to see M.T.H. do a model of 7002 ! I just picked up > there Railking M1a a few weeks back and am very impressed with it > (and M.T.H. as well) ! ! > Jon S. Jon, Great! There are O Gauge railroaders on this list. IMHO, many of the MTH engines are extremely well done. Their Railking M-1, as you pointed out, is one of their best so far. I won't comment on the RK S-2 (full sized, so to speak) and it's dinky drivers but at least it's better done than the old Lionel unit. What really looks impressive behind that Mountain is one of the MTH Premier N8 cabin cars. They are the best I've seen so far when one considers price, quality and accuracy. Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 20:46:34 -0400 From: Dale Dembinski Subject: Re: [PRR] O scale Interestingly enough, I had just run my MTH M1A mountain right before sending my email about 7002! I agree, the M1A is a great hunk of power! The billowing smoke synchronized with the sounds is just incredible. When I run it a lot, I like to run a small fan so that the basement doesn't get excessively smoky. All that's missing is cinders in my hair. And I was very mildly disappointed that the red marker lights on the tender apparently are not lit. But then again, I understand that there has to be some cost containment in the RailKing line. I give MTH an "A" for this loco! Dale ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 18:01:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] O scale Dale, list, I would be interested in a Rail King version of the 8063 as modernized for service in the 30s. I would love a Premier version, but I wouldn't be able to afford one; I passed on the MTH E6s for this reason (I hope they do the 460 in a Rail King version). I'm not interested in the 8063 masquerading as the 7002. To me the 8063 is more signficant as a turn of the century Atlantic that saw service in the the late 30s rather than as a record holder. Just my opinion; I like your idea a lot. Doug --- Dale Dembinski wrote: > I'm waiting for MTH trains to start a series of > museum locos/cars in O. > Anyone interested in #7002 pulling a string of early > PRR passenger cars > - all copied from the RR museum of PA holdings? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:30:57 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRRT&HS e-NEWS April edition Folks, This Friday (4/20) the April edition of the PRRT&HS Official Newsletter - e-NEWS will be sent out. Catch the latest on the Annual Meeting, the current status of the Archive's Project and numerous other bits and pieces of information about what's happening at the National Society and the Philadelphia Chapter. Plus the Northern Central Chapter also has a book for sale. I have also included my annual call for member comments to the Board of Directors. If your not currently a subscriber you can join 259 others and become one by sending a e-mail addressed to: PRRTHSe-NEWS-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Al - Editor and BOD member. "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [CYBER] PRRT&HS e-NEWS April edition Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:30:57 -0400 Folks, This Friday (4/20) the April edition of the PRRT&HS Official Newsletter - e-NEWS will be sent out. Catch the latest on the Annual Meeting, the current status of the Archive's Project and numerous other bits and pieces of information about what's happening at the National Society and the Philadelphia Chapter. Plus the Northern Central Chapter also has a book for sale. I have also included my annual call for member comments to the Board of Directors. If your not currently a subscriber you can join 259 others and become one by sending a e-mail addressed to: PRRTHSe-NEWS-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Al - Editor and BOD member. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This list ("Cyber-Talk") is for discussion of Cyber Chapter (PRRT&HS) business only. All general modeling and/or Pennsy discussion should take place on "PRR-Talk". For assistance with this list, send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To access the "Members Only" section of the web site, click on a link and, when prompted, enter the user name "member" and the password "standardrr". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS e-NEWS April edition Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:30:57 -0400 Folks, This Friday (4/20) the April edition of the PRRT&HS Official Newsletter - e-NEWS will be sent out. Catch the latest on the Annual Meeting, the current status of the Archive's Project and numerous other bits and pieces of information about what's happening at the National Society and the Philadelphia Chapter. Plus the Northern Central Chapter also has a book for sale. I have also included my annual call for member comments to the Board of Directors. If your not currently a subscriber you can join 259 others and become one by sending a e-mail addressed to: PRRTHSe-NEWS-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Al - Editor and BOD member. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "GAS" Subject: [PRR] RE: Classes not saved Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:55:46 -0400 When discussion about the short commings of the Q-2, and T-1 and others come to hand, I wonder if people forget to put things into context. These engines were built around and during the time of WWII. There was relatively, to non-wartime conditions, little time or money to be spent on tweaking these engines. That is why the C&O T-1 design was force on the Pennsy. Once the war was over diesels were comming on strong and not because of their performance as much as the cost of maintaining them and less crews needed in running them. Relatively little time and effort were made to greatly improve these engines once the diesels proved their cost effectiveness. Although there was an effort to compete with the diesels, this is not the same as the time and monies that would have been allowed if the diesels would not have been on the horizon. Recently I purchased a back issue of Locomotive and Railway Preservation Quartlerly issue 63 1-2 1997 in which an article covered a man who was until recently, and probably still, improving the performance and efficiency of old steam engines for third world countries in excess of 50%. If one thinks that the K-4s were not improved on since their inception until the 1940s they should look more closely at the historical facts. I have little doubt that if the diesels had not come along, the modern steam engines would have been modified to correct their problems. For example one of the T1s problems was lack of weight on the front drivers. I think that would have been resolved. I heard mentioned they ran out of sand. No doubt the sandbox could have been enlarged. The valves would have been fine tuned or replaced etc. etc.. Remember the PRR was on the cutting edge of technology in its' time. When you are there you will need to fine tune those items you produce. No doubt these engines would have been eclipsed by better steam engines based upon those things learned from the engines afore mentioned. I don't believe these engines were failures at all. What I think we see is technologic evolution stopped amid stride. From that point of view it is like looking at a painting that isn't finished and discussing its shortcommings. ---Greg Stone PRRT&HS member special interest the Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] East Slope Interlockings (fwd) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 101 22:21:27 -0400 (EDT) Jerry Britton scribit: > > In looking at the AR / UN/ SF/ BF interlocking diagram on Mark Bej's site, > one can't help but notice how close together some of these interlockings > are... Jerry, be careful and recognize that interlocking diagrams are NOT drawn to any scale, and the scale can be variously compressed and expanded, as needed, withing the same diagram, to allow certain features to be visualized. I wrote this particular web page before my "standard text format" evolved to include milepost numbers. Further, my Central Region ETT is at home, not here at work. Please check out your ETT for the MP numbers. > If you are a westbound train (track 3 or 4, doesn't matter), you travel > through BF ("Benny"). You immediately hit SF. There are no distant signals > for SF. Do the home signals for BF also act as distant signals for SF? They would. I.e. in the hopefully uncommon situation where a westbound would be encountering a Stop signal at 42R (#4 westward at SF) or 38R (#3 at SF), that train would first encounter an Approach signal at 54L (#4 wwd BF/BENNY) or 52L, respectively. Now, 42R can also show Medium Clear (- over |) and Slow Approach (- over /) (but NOT Approach!) For Medium Clear at 42R, 54L would undoubtedly show Approach Medium (/ over |). For Slow Approach at 42R, 54L is unable to show Approach Slow (/ over /), so presumably it would show a plain Approach (would need PRR paperwork to confirm). 38R can show Slow Approach only, no Medium Clear. Its "distant", 52L, can theoretically show all aspects, but without aspect charts or signal relay wiring diagrams, I cannot tell you what aspects it _actually_ was wired to show. I can tell you that Approach Medium would almost certainly not be used for any aspect at 38R, but rather for a crossing move over #59 crossover to #4 track and a Medium Clear at 42R. The / aspect on the lower arm of 52L could be part of a Slow Approach (a common aspect on PRR) or Approach Slow (a rather uncommon aspect on PRR). WITHOUT PROOF, I suspect the former, and that *probably* 52L showed Approach when 38R showed Slow Approach. > This would be helpful, since on my layout I really don't want to add too > many signal bridges. Heck, at that point I might as well put it all under > catenary!!! Why not? Conrail at least thought about it, as did PRR. > I also noted that track 3 is indeed signalled for an eastbound, confirming > yesterday's discussion about heavier eastbounds taking this route to avoid > The Slide. Careful. "Signalled for an eastbound" usually means having automatic signals in that direction. Almost all (*note carefully - almost all - see last paragraph of this email) territory on the interlocking diagram is "back to back interlockings", no room/need for automatics. Interlocking territory is always signalled in both directions. By this sort of reasoning, you could say that from UN to BF, #4 track is signalled for eastward moves too. However, I don't think the RR types would consider this an example of bidirectional signalling, but rather, a somewhat exceptional case (a "planned exception") where the proximity of interlockings one to the other produced a possibility (planned) of operating eastbound trains on #3. (If geography had forced UN to be much farther from SF, and SF much farther from BF, extra (automatic) signals would have had to be placed on #3 for easy, routine eastward operation.) > There is a home signal for SF immediately as an eastbound exits > the tunnel on track 3. Yes, and these were very close to the tunnel portals. > A train on this route has to be routed this way back at MO. Yup! Funny how incomplete interlockings force your hand, ain't it? > I noted that the first eastbound signal bridge on track 3 in AR > territory shows the aspect as being controlled by MO. Pretty much, yes. Careful about the wording - the aspect (what the signal shows) is determined by the relay logic. The tower merely gives an "up or down" instruction to the relays. (There is 1 minor exception, call-ons, which I'll ignore for now.) 22L is an automatic signal that is controlled by a tower lever. The interlocking diagram for AR/UN/SF/BF shows the signal as being a non-stick. I.e. it does not "stick" at Stop once the aspect has been accepted by a train, but rather, it will act like an automatic, going through the cycle of Stop-and-Proceed -- Approach -- Clear as the train departs. If that lever is not pulled up (is in its neutral position), 22L shows Stop. Note too that, per MO's diagram, traffic levers 23 and 55 would have to be set for Ewd operation for 22L to show anything beyond Stop. Since MO is a 23-lever frame, lever 55 is in AR tower, not MO. Given this, I would say that #3 is signalled for eastward operation between MO and UN. Its usability for ewd operation beyond to SF and BF is a consequence of the proximity of the other interlockings to each other. -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 23:41:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] O scale MTH is, of course, no longer doing any 2 rail - Most 2 railers turned up their noses at die cast steam... I would love to see an E-2/7; E-5 or K-2 - these are not just "wood coach" locos - but most survived WW2, after depression era storage. I love the older, smaller locos - have three H-6's. The manufacturer's problem, I'm told, is that smaller locos cost almost as much to make as the monsters we've seen recently - and the makers think that these older, smaller locos would not sell as well, since the Market might think them "overpriced" compared to the larger locos: The Strasburg D-16 & Atlantic might be exceptions, since many people have "Live" memories and/or color pictures of them - Modeling the E-2/7 would be a real challenge - the assemblage of rods, springs and levers that transferred weight to the trailing wheel would be tough to do "right" I may be wrong, but I believe the rear axle moved only up and down - and did not swivel. If true, and modeled correctly, this means the loco would have the fixed wheel base of a Pacific, not an Atlantic, (O-42 vs O-31 in 3 rail) which might also tend to limit sales, if done as a "scale piece" - even though "Scale" coaches require at least O-42 in 3 rail. I tend to believe that sales of "Strasburg" style wooden coaches would be extremely limited - but I could be wrong on that too.... Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] N5 series of cabin cars info Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:50:28 -0700 Guys, It is time...I have managed to collect a batch of Bowser N5 series cabin car kits (mostly undec) and "it's show time"! Mainly (I found the Dec '95 issue of MM with Ed Martin's great article on detailing the N5/N5b cabins) I am looking for info (and photos...especially photos) of N5 series (including the portholed N5c) cars at work and play. Anybody got any leads on photos and such? I already have the NJ cabin car book, Bill Caloroso's book on the Elmira branch Incidently, I noticed that all the cabin cars illustrated in that book had a smoke jack with a short hood...is this typical of the Elmira Branch or what? The NJ book shows plenty of cars with the "lazy H" style of jack (similar to what is supplied with the Bowser kit) so I know there were other types out there... Does anybody on the list know if a commercial window set is done for the N5c cars...I hear Run8 is out of business, and I seem to remember that someone else is doing laser cut windows. Who does the best lettering for a pre-1954 car? Champ usually does a nice crisp job, but the letterpress process they use results in non-opaque whites... Has anybody done the MartinModification (tm) on the collision posts using some of the precast C sections available from Evergreen instead of rolling their own (as Ed did in his article)? Any luck? Anybody else have any other kinks, ideas or whatnots that would help...out here in the wilds of deepest, darkest Arizona (especially with the Gobi Dust Storm that blew in today...Tucson actually looked like SoCal...weird...you could just barely see the mountains through the goop) it is pretty tough to find any PRR info. Bill Daniels Tucson, Arizona, new home of the Gobi desert! ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lmatt" Subject: Re: [PRR] RE: Classes not saved Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 08:38:36 -0400 Dear Gregg: I believe you have summed up the situation perfectly! Lew Matt #6107 ----- Original Message ----- From: "GAS" To: "PRR talk" Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 9:55 PM Subject: [PRR] RE: Classes not saved > When discussion about the short commings of the Q-2, and T-1 and others come > to hand, I wonder if people forget to put things into context. These engines > were built around and during the time of WWII. There was relatively, to > non-wartime conditions, little time or money to be spent on tweaking these > engines. That is why the C&O T-1 design was force on the Pennsy. Once the > war was over diesels were comming on strong and not because of their > performance as much as the cost of maintaining them and less crews needed in > running them. Relatively little time and effort were made to greatly improve > these engines once the diesels proved their cost effectiveness. Although > there was an effort to compete with the diesels, this is not the same as the > time and monies that would have been allowed if the diesels would not have > been on the horizon. > Recently I purchased a back issue of Locomotive and Railway Preservation > Quartlerly issue 63 1-2 1997 in which an article covered a man who was until > recently, and probably still, improving the performance and efficiency of > old steam engines for third world countries in excess of 50%. If one thinks > that the K-4s were not improved on since their inception until the 1940s > they should look more closely at the historical facts. I have little doubt > that if the diesels had not come along, the modern steam engines would have > been modified to correct their problems. For example one of the T1s problems > was lack of weight on the front drivers. I think that would have been > resolved. I heard mentioned they ran out of sand. No doubt the sandbox could > have been enlarged. The valves would have been fine tuned or replaced etc. > etc.. Remember the PRR was on the cutting edge of technology in its' time. > When you are there you will need to fine tune those items you produce. No > doubt these engines would have been eclipsed by better steam engines based > upon those things learned from the engines afore mentioned. I don't believe > these engines were failures at all. What I think we see is technologic > evolution stopped amid stride. From that point of view it is like looking at > a painting that isn't finished and discussing its shortcommings. > > ---Greg Stone > PRRT&HS member > special interest the Renovo Yards > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] Use of "Benny" Interlocking Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:23:58 -0700 From: "John Cooper" Ok, so if it's handy to have more downhill tracks than uphill, I wonder why they didn't install bidirectional signalling on track 2 for the west slope, and keep it on on track 3 for the east slope? As I ponder the question, I'm wondering which slope was the more difficult grade? I could check my track charts at home, but does anyone know offhand? Also I wonder if there was an imbalance in the number of tons that went east versus west. A greater number of really heavy trains going east (such as Garry's mineral trains) may affect which track gets bidirectional signalling. John > ---------- > From: Garry Spear[SMTP:garrettspear@yahoo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 5:44 PM > To: John Cooper; PRR-Talk LIST; Jerry Britton > Subject: RE: [PRR] Use of "Benny" Interlocking > > Heavy mineral trains did use track three to benny and cross back to 1 > or 2. > I was on trains that did this. > > Coming down the mountain more tracks were needed than going up the > mountain. Down hill speeds were very slow and timed. Timers were > used > between AR and Alto on every train. Failure to use the minimum time > was a > major problem for the engineer. > > Garry Spear > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Cooper [SMTP:johncoop@microsoft.com] > Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 2:26 PM > To: PRR-Talk LIST; Jerry Britton > Subject: RE: [PRR] Use of "Benny" Interlocking > > Looking at 1948 track diagrams > http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/itlk_alt_pgh_main.html > , > I would speculate as follows: > > Track 3 is/was signalled in both directions for the entire mountain. > (from SG in Johnstown at least as far as Slope in Altoona). I would > assume that changing the current of traffic eastward for track three > would have different effects on the operations depending on which side > of the mountain you are on. On the west side, you'd then have 3 > uphill > tracks, and 1 downhill. On the east side, you'd then have 1 uphill > track, and 3 downhill. Certainly there are many factors involved, but > my first instinct would be that a dispatcher would find it much more > useful to convert a downhill track to uphill, rather than the other > way > around. If so, then Benny would be an ideal place to end eastward > running on 3 and cross back to 1 or 2. On the other hand, this would > make one wonder why they wouldn't have installed bi-directional > signalling on different tracks for each side of the mountain. It > would > be interesting to know exactly how often tk 3 was actually used > eastward > in normal operations. > > I would suspect a westbound would use the crossover from 3 to 4 at > Benny > when a train was entering from the New Portage Branch at SF. > > I doubt 2 was used much for westbound traffic as it was only signalled > eastward and would require a train order for such a movement. > > John > > > ---------- > > From: Jerry Britton[SMTP:jerry@pennsyrr.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 5:48 AM > > To: PRR-Talk LIST > > Subject: [PRR] Use of "Benny" Interlocking > > > > Okay, folks, the "East Slope" question of the day... > > > > How was "Benny" interlocking used? > > > > Benny was a half interlocking just east of Tunnel Hill, at the base > of > > "The > > Slide". It was still present in track charts as of 1958 and was > > removed by > > Conrail. > > > > It allowed westbound trains to move to higher numbered tracks and > > eastbound > > trains to move to lower numbered tracks only. > > > > I know of two possible uses: > > > > 1. Very heavy eastbound mineral trains might be routed to track 3 at > > MO so > > as to avoid the steeper downgrade of "The Slide", then route back > over > > to > > track 1 or 2 at Benny. > > > > 2. If there was heavy westbound freight traffic and light traffic > > eastward, > > might tracks 3 & 4 have both been used for westbound freight and a > > westbound > > passenger routed on track 2 (at Slope or MG) and then crossed back > to > > track > > 3 at Benny? > > > > The above is strictly conjecture. Does anyone agree or offer other > > uses? > > > > In my N scale model, I only have about 15 feet between MG and the > > beginning > > of "The Slide". I am thinking about dropping Benny interlocking so I > > can > > concentrate on the scenic meandering of The Allegripus (sp.) and > other > > curves. From a modeling operations perspective I won't need it...but > I > > want > > to know what I am doing away with!!! > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > > Free serving of railroad web sites > > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > Join our SPF database at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > - > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] East Slope Interlockings (fwd) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:05:20 -0700 From: "John Cooper" > Given this, I would say that #3 is signalled for eastward operation > between > MO and UN. Its usability for ewd operation beyond to SF and BF is a > consequence of the proximity of the other interlockings to each other. > Track three is rule 261 (birectional signalling) from SG (Johnstown/Sang Hollow Ext) all the way over the mountain at least to Slope (probably Alto actually - I'd have to check track charts since we don't have Mid Div interlocking diagrams). MG's traffic lever 17 confirms 261 as far as Slope. > -- > Mark > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: RE: [PRR] East Slope Interlockings (fwd) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 10:41:05 -0700 From: "John Cooper" > ---------- > From: Mark Bej[SMTP:bejm@eeg.ccf.org] > To: Jerry Britton; prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: Re: [PRR] East Slope Interlockings (fwd) > > Jerry Britton scribit: > > > > In looking at the AR / UN/ SF/ BF interlocking diagram on Mark Bej's > site, > > one can't help but notice how close together some of these > interlockings > > are... > > Jerry, > be careful and recognize that interlocking diagrams are NOT drawn to > any > scale, and the scale can be variously compressed and expanded, as > needed, > withing the same diagram, to allow certain features to be visualized. > > I wrote this particular web page before my "standard text format" > evolved > to include milepost numbers. Further, my Central Region ETT is at > home, > not here at work. Please check out your ETT for the MP numbers. > A satelite image of Benny can be found at http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/image.asp?S=12&T=1&X=887&Y=5604&Z =17&W=2 The SF signal bridge for 42R and 38R can clearly be seen. I don't see the signal bridges for Benny, but it must have been in the straight section in the above view. Did Conrail remove the bridges? The 2455 distant signals to Benny can be seen by scrolling one view to the right. Just east of the roughly 60deg curve. Zoom in to see these more clearly. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lmatt" Subject: [PRR] New Haven MP5 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 12:36:36 -0400 Anyone know where there are plans for the NH MP5 for sale? Lew Matt #6107 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jimy6b@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:23:53 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] O scale Agree the Railking PRR Mountain is very well done. Am equally impressed with Railking L-1, K-4 and B-6 (just released). Also on the way Railking I-1 and Premier Q-2. All of these locos are available in Proto 2. MTH must have a sweet spot for the PRR Jim Cuozzo ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 17:31:26 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] O scale Jimy6b@aol.com wrote: > > Agree the Railking PRR Mountain is very well done. Am equally impressed with > Railking L-1, K-4 and B-6 (just released). Also on the way Railking I-1 and > Premier Q-2. All of these locos are available in Proto 2. MTH must have a > sweet spot for the PRR > > Jim Cuozzo Jim, IIRC, Mike Wolf was born and spent his very early childhood in the Altoona area. His family (at least two generations) also worked for the PRR. So he naturally recognizes which railroad was the greatest ever. There also seems to be a rather large fan base out there! Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:09:02 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] O scale In a message dated 4/19/01 5:39:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, prrbill@Op.Net writes: << Mike Wolf was born and spent his very early childhood in the Altoona area. His family (at least two generations) also worked for the PRR. So he naturally recognizes which railroad was the greatest ever. There also seems to be a rather large fan base out there! >> He also knows what sells: PRR & NYC. I met Mike Wolf in person, told him that the offsett side cars were totally wrong for Pennsy and asked him to make a PRR H-21 Quad. He complied, "sorta" He has put a Red Pennsy paint job on his 1960's vintage 100 ton hopper (lettered H-21a on the lower right side) - not a bad model, with limitations, but technologically "off" by more than 50 years for the PEnnsy car. Dick Ross, Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 19:39:09 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] O scale Jim, Yes M.T.H. has hit a "sweet spot" with PRR O Salers. . . and I think it's just Fantastic ! ! ! Jon S. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "GAS" Subject: [PRR] O scale 2 rail Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 22:51:18 -0400 I appreciate everyone's response to my interest in O scale. I switched from 3 rail to 2 rail and my question was to inquire wether there was anyone else out there that is interested in the earlier pennsy steam. I like double headed steam. Unless you have a huge layout and one heck of a lot of cars, two J1a's just don't look realistic on the average home layout.On the other hand a couple or threee H class engines or a D16 and E class would look pretty nice double or triple heading. Another thing I have been noticing in the Triumph books, early postcards and photos is how well the equipment and grounds were kept early in the century (1900s). The Ocatagonal towers and the semaphores are also interesting. I presently have limited my dream layout to model the era right up to 1950. This was so I could include an N-8 cabin car and a X-42 mail car. The X-42 probably wasn't behind steam much if at all so it isn't essential. I did want an N-8 in the ball keystone. For some time now I have considered cutting back to early 1930s maybe up to 1942 to get in the N5c's. This would limit the need for a lot of boxcars. The X31 and X32s would be somewhat state of the art. Also many of the older engines were still around. I have even considered the 1920s so as to just include the M1s. Going much earlier is a little tough becuase I have most of my stuff painted in the ball keystone scheme, which I like. I was wondering how some brass XL boxcars might sell in O scale. Or maybe a GG hopper car. Anyone elso out there with similar thoughts? --Greg Stone PRRT&HS member special interest the Renovo Yards ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GPandelios@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 22:58:26 EDT Subject: [PRR] O Gauge Make that 4, at least! My engines are all Williams - 2 K4s, 1 L1s, and a B6sb. George Modeling the Weirton, WV-Steubenville, OH area from 1948-1957 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 01:32:36 EDT Subject: [PRR] Northbound coal I imagine many of you have the Audio Visual Designs Pennsy calendar. Have you taken a good look at the photo this month? It shows an I-1 pushing a string on coal hoppers onto the dock at Sodus Point. Great picture!!! As I admired it, it gradually sunk in that of the 5 hoppers whose road name is visible, two are B&O, one is Nickel Plate, one is Clinchfield, and the fifth is illegible but clearly not Pennsy. What is going on here? Was the Pennsy carrying interchange coal to Sodus Point from as far away as Kentucky/Tennessee/southern Ohio? Was the Pennsy using off-road cars and loading them for routing north (an apparent violation of the car service rules to send them away from their home road and at odds with the general belief among modelers that, unlike boxcars, hoppers do not stray far from their home road)? Anyone have any ideas? This picture seems to have some major implications for my Elmira branch coal trains . . . but I am puzzled as to what those implications are. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 08:42:38 -0400 Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS Convention Agenda From: Jerry Britton The Pittsburgh Chapter has provided a revision to the convention schedule. A few events have changed locations and one has changed its time slot to accommodate a new program on the Crestline Roundhouse. You can view the full, revised schedule on the Cyber Division's web site at http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] East Slope Interlockings (fwd) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 101 09:27:00 -0400 (EDT) John Cooper scribit: > > Track three is rule 261 (birectional signalling) from SG (Johnstown/Sang > Hollow Ext) all the way over the mountain at least to Slope (probably > Alto actually - I'd have to check track charts since we don't have Mid > Div interlocking diagrams). MG's traffic lever 17 confirms 261 as far > as Slope. Thanks! I should have looked at MG but did not. Jerry, another place to see is the Track Assignments and Signal Rules sections of the ETT. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] East Slope Interlockings (fwd) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 101 09:57:48 -0400 (EDT) John Cooper scribit: > > > A satelite image of Benny can be found at > http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/image.asp?S=12&T=1&X=887&Y=5604&Z=17&W=2 I got the above address modified by word-wrap, so for anyone who could not access the image for that reason, I've redone the address above. (But no guarantees that your receiving mail program won't change it back thinking only IT knows how to do these things!) The other important lesson from this image is the relative environmental impact of railroad vs. "truckroad". (Or in this territory, I should say budshusterroad.) -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:31:29 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Staley Tank Cars on the PRR From: Jerry Britton InterMountain makes some pretty decent 8,000 gallon tank cars. One of the road names is Staley Manufacturing. Would these have been spotted on the PRR in the mid-1950's? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] trains.com poll Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:42:54 -0400 Lists: trains.com, run by Kalmbach Publishing, has been running a poll on "Favorite railroad to model". Since its inception, ATSF was first, PRR second, and UP third. This morning UP has overtaken PRR. We can't let Uncle Pete upstage "The Standard Rai,.road of the World" can we? If you have not voted in this poll yet I urge you to do so and get your friends and relatives to do so as well. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 07:39:27 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Need e-mail address Pat McKinney, I've lost your e-mail address. Would you contact me off-list, please, at wb3iqe@rocketmail.com? Thanks ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Staley Tank Cars on the PRR Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:47:13 -0400 Jerry:- Since A. E. Staley is located at Decatur, IL, and PRR served Decatur on the line from Terre Haute to Peoria, I am sure some of these cars would be seen on PRR in the 1950's. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "PRR-Talk LIST" Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 10:31 AM Subject: [PRR] Staley Tank Cars on the PRR > InterMountain makes some pretty decent 8,000 gallon tank cars. One of the > road names is Staley Manufacturing. Would these have been spotted on the PRR > in the mid-1950's? > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:43:42 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] trains.com poll From: Jerry Britton On 4/20/01 10:42 AM, Gregg Mahlkov (mahlkov@gtcom.net) wrote: > trains.com, run by Kalmbach Publishing, has been running a poll on "Favorite > railroad to model". Since its inception, ATSF was first, PRR second, and UP > third. This morning UP has overtaken PRR. We can't let Uncle Pete upstage > "The Standard Rai,.road of the World" can we? If you have not voted in this > poll yet I urge you to do so and get your friends and relatives to do so as > well. > Didn't even know this was going on!!! I just voted. PRR is currently back in 2nd, 2% ahead of UP. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:47:56 -0400 Subject: [PRR] What Trucks on F-30d? From: Jerry Britton What trucks were under an F-30d? These were the flats initially used in 1954 for the PRR's new TrucTrain service. The F-39's, which held two trailers, were first delivered in 12/54. I thought of checking Rob's site, but "railfan.net" is not responding. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:55:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Need e-mail address From: Jerry Britton On 4/20/01 10:39 AM, robert netzlof (wb3iqe@rocketmail.com) wrote: > Pat McKinney, I've lost your e-mail address. Would you > contact me off-list, please, at wb3iqe@rocketmail.com? > A tip for all... If you need an e-mail address, go to the list archive at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/email and type the person's name in the KEYWORDS field and do a search. More often than not, you'll get a list of posts, some of which were made by the person whose e-mail address you are looking for. I just searched for Pat's address. It took less than 30 seconds and was the first record returned. It is PKMac101@aol.com Technology is great IF YOU REMEMBER what you have access to!!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:57:16 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com poll In a message dated 4/20/2001 7:45:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: << trains.com, run by Kalmbach Publishing, has been running a poll on "Favorite railroad to model". Since its inception, ATSF was first, PRR second, and UP third. This morning UP has overtaken PRR. We can't let Uncle Pete upstage "The Standard Rai,.road of the World" can we? If you have not voted in this poll yet I urge you to do so and get your friends and relatives to do so as well. >> I looked at the list (and voted). Pooh! It is not even close. In the list they give there, PRR is not just the obvious choice -- it is the ONLY choice. If they had included the B&O or maybe the NKP, it might have been tough to decide. But Milwaukee Road? Great Northern? Get serious! What is model railroading coming to? Disgruntled geezer (aka Lee Rainey) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] What Trucks on F-30d? Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:29:30 -0400 Jerry, Try again. I just checked and the site worked just fine for me. Of course there's only truck info for F30, F30a and F30c on the F30 page... ( http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=F30 ) There is a photo of an F30d on the page though so you should be able to identify the trucks... You should probably check out Vol 23 #1 of the Keystone Rob http://prr.railfan.net > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry > Britton > Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 10:48 AM > To: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: [PRR] What Trucks on F-30d? > > > What trucks were under an F-30d? > > These were the flats initially used in 1954 for the PRR's new TrucTrain > service. The F-39's, which held two trailers, were first > delivered in 12/54. > > I thought of checking Rob's site, but "railfan.net" is not responding. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:05:04 EDT From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com poll Geez guys, What kinda poll is this anyway? They got the IC but not the B&O? whaaat? (Actually, I'm glad they left out the NKP: that road got all it's popularity from Kalmbach and Tony Koester). But we can see through this nonsense. Fine a line as it is, the Santa Fe draws most of it's attraction from it's warbonnet paint scheme, not any railroading savvy. Folks like the SP because they're told the Daylight was 'the most beautiful train in the world", and the UP well, what can you say. It's been around forever, one of the few roads still holding the same nane for over a century, and it's always gotten good publicity. Besides, it's all a lot of people ever see. The Pennsy now, that takes some feel for railroading to appreciate. Something for the person with a better developed taste for the good things in life, rather than flashy catch-the-eye (and sometimes garish) paint jobs. Certainly, the person who appreciates the beauty of a Belpaire firebox must have refined taste, don't you think? Knowing that a railroad is for moving vast tonnages and feeding industry and seaports in a no-nonsense, sweat of the brow manner gives a fan a deep affinity for the old Keystone Line. And a railroad that was built to serve a city, a state and a people has to have a better pedigree that one built to make one or two men wealthy doesn't it? But what the heck. In a society that makes guys like Jerry Springer rich, I'm, surprised Pennsy has been doing so well in this poll. (Disclaimer: much of the proceeding message has been posted in a somewhat less than dead serious tone, so please, nobody get too agitated. Thank you.) Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 11:32:50 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] SOT: PP&L fireless cooker 7767 Hi Folks, A slightly off topic request...I was browsing Wes Barris' Steamloco pages (http://www.steamlocomotive.com/) and came across information that PP&L 0-6-0 # 7767, a fireless cooker, was at the Blue Mountain & Reading in the early 90's. Does anyone know if this loco is still there, or where it ended up? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:32:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com poll From: Jerry Britton On 4/20/01 12:05 PM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: > What kinda poll is this anyway? They got the IC but not the B&O? whaaat? > (Actually, I'm glad they left out the NKP: that road got all it's popularity > from Kalmbach and Tony Koester). > But we can see through this nonsense. Fine a line as it is, the Santa Fe draws > most of it's attraction from it's warbonnet paint scheme, not any railroading > savvy. Folks like the SP because they're told the Daylight was 'the most > beautiful train in the world", and the UP well, what can you say. It's been > around forever, one of the few roads still holding the same nane for over a > century, and it's always gotten good publicity. Besides, it's all a lot of > people ever see. Okay, so the PRR is known for its technical savvy. Here, take this test: 1. Go to the www.trains.com site and vote for the PRR. 2. Open the Preferences of your browser, view the Cookies that are saved, and delete the one from the server "www.trains.com" that is named "SurveyTaken74". Close the Cookies window. 3. Repeat step 1 and vote again, and again, and again!!! So much for scientific polls!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:40:22 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com poll From: Jerry Britton On 4/20/01 12:32 PM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > Okay, so the PRR is known for its technical savvy. Here, take this test: > > 1. Go to the www.trains.com site and vote for the PRR. > > 2. Open the Preferences of your browser, view the Cookies that are saved, > and delete the one from the server "www.trains.com" that is named > "SurveyTaken74". Close the Cookies window. > > 3. Repeat step 1 and vote again, and again, and again!!! > > So much for scientific polls!!! By my calculations, if everyone on this list voted once (or revoted once) and all other railroads stood still, the Santa Fe would drop to an 18% share and the PRR would rise to nearly a 23% share of the vote!!! The total number of votes placed thus far are still low enough for anyone and everyone to make a difference. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 12:44:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] SOT: PP&L fireless cooker 7767 From: Jerry Britton On 4/20/01 12:32 PM, Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. (smithbf@mail.auburn.edu) wrote: > A slightly off topic request...I was browsing Wes Barris' Steamloco pages > (http://www.steamlocomotive.com/) and came across information that PP&L > 0-6-0 # 7767, a fireless cooker, was at the Blue Mountain & Reading in the > early 90's. Does anyone know if this loco is still there, or where it > ended up? > I can't speak for the 0-6-0, but a PP&L 0-8-0 "fireless" is at the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania. Don't know if my recollection is to this loco or to a newer acquisition (perhaps your 0-6-0), but in one of the recent issues of "The Milepost" (museum newsletter) I know that there was mention of a PP&L steamer becoming part of the collection that previously switched at Safe Harbor! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com poll Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:10:51 -0400 Jerry:- The top vote getter on the trains.com list is "all other", ATSF has 13 pct. and UP and PRR 11 pct. with UP now above PRR. I did not mention "all other" since many popular roads, two already mentioned (there are more than one modeler of New Haven and Erie as well), are included in it. Look again and you will see that the railroad graph and numbers are under the railroad, not above it. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: "Jerry Britton" ; ; Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com poll > On 4/20/01 12:32 PM, Jerry Britton (jerry@pennsyrr.com) wrote: > > > Okay, so the PRR is known for its technical savvy. Here, take this test: > > > > 1. Go to the www.trains.com site and vote for the PRR. > > > > 2. Open the Preferences of your browser, view the Cookies that are saved, > > and delete the one from the server "www.trains.com" that is named > > "SurveyTaken74". Close the Cookies window. > > > > 3. Repeat step 1 and vote again, and again, and again!!! > > > > So much for scientific polls!!! > > By my calculations, if everyone on this list voted once (or revoted once) > and all other railroads stood still, the Santa Fe would drop to an 18% share > and the PRR would rise to nearly a 23% share of the vote!!! > > The total number of votes placed thus far are still low enough for anyone > and everyone to make a difference. > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 13:12:33 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com poll - new slogan In a message dated 4/20/2001 9:16:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, BPX29@aol.com writes: << The Pennsy now, that takes some feel for railroading to appreciate. Something for the person with a better developed taste for the good things in life, rather than flashy catch-the-eye (and sometimes garish) paint jobs. Certainly, the person who appreciates the beauty of a Belpaire firebox must have refined taste, don't you think? Knowing that a railroad is for moving vast tonnages and feeding industry and seaports in a no-nonsense, sweat of the brow manner gives a fan a deep affinity for the old Keystone Line. And a railroad that was built to serve a city, a state and a people has to have a better pedigree that one built to make one or two men wealthy doesn't it? >> the new slogan for this list: "Pennsy: The Thinking Man's Prototype" Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:47:03 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com poll Lee, Consider who's taking the poll (Kalmbach) and where they are located (Milwaukee). I'm not surprised B&O, NKP, ERIE, NH, etc are not listed. I'm surprised they didn't include, Rock Island, CNW, CGW, SOO, WC, ... Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== LeeRainey@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 4/20/2001 7:45:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: > > << trains.com, run by Kalmbach Publishing, has been running a poll on > "Favorite > railroad to model". Since its inception, ATSF was first, PRR second, and UP > third. This morning UP has overtaken PRR. We can't let Uncle Pete upstage > "The Standard Rai,.road of the World" can we? If you have not voted in this > poll yet I urge you to do so and get your friends and relatives to do so as > well. >> > > I looked at the list (and voted). Pooh! It is not even close. In the list > they give there, PRR is not just the obvious choice -- it is the ONLY choice. > If they had included the B&O or maybe the NKP, it might have been tough to > decide. But Milwaukee Road? Great Northern? Get serious! What is model > railroading coming to? > > Disgruntled geezer (aka Lee Rainey) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:04:35 -0400 From: Steve Hanlon Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com poll >Okay, so the PRR is known for its technical savvy. Here, take this test: > >1. Go to the www.trains.com site and vote for the PRR. > >2. Open the Preferences of your browser, view the Cookies that are saved, >and delete the one from the server "www.trains.com" that is named >"SurveyTaken74". Close the Cookies window. > >3. Repeat step 1 and vote again, and again, and again!!! > >So much for scientific polls!!! what possible science can there be, they left out WM and NW. or do they count as part of the pennsy. -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:22:12 EDT From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Prototype Modelers meets or June... Hey Yuze Gize, This coming June there are a couple of Prototype Modelers meets that I think are worthy of mentioning. I listed the details in my Scuttlebutt column in this April's issue of Mainline Modeler but for those folks who don't subscribe or are unable to find a copy let me mention the two meets... First is the annual Savannah Prototype Modelers Meet hosted by Bob Harpe in the Savannah, GA area on June 1st and 2nd, 2001. This is an annual event and the seminar schedule reads like a who's who of the modeling press and hobby. For those on the east coast this is a great sharing event. Stop in and meet the folks, say hi to Dayna Warner and John Aurther as well as Jim Six and te rest of the gang. Second, is the Joint Rocky Mountain Regional NMRA Div / RPM meet in Lakewood,CO held on June 7th to 10th, 2001 in the Denver,CO area. The RPM host for the RPM portion of the RMR/RPM meet is noted author (and sometimes PRR modeler)Stuart Thayer and Conrail modeler Dan Bourque. We at RPM have worked out some special RPM only attendance rates, if you would like to attend only the RPM event, that will help if you can not afford the full convention fees and don't wish to join the NMRA, however; we would like to encourae to join in the entire festivities if you can. Stop in and say howdy to my good friends Stuart and Dan. Look for Randy Lee of Model Railraoding and Lee Reily of Bachmman. These meets bring out some fanastic modelers and their models. Aslo you will find that the(clinics) seminars are some of the most helpful tips you can find on modeling. These meets are all about Realistic Modeling as well as some focus on the prototype. Our own AL Stump Sr (the webmaster for Railroad Prototype Modelers)has posted the information to the RPM webpages (www.rpmrail.org/events.htm)and more detailed information can be found there. I hope you all can attend at least a couple of these events this year and there will be more later this year, one that comes to mind is the Clevelnad Prototype Modelers in early October hosted by Jim Six. Hope you can attend... email Al Stump or myself if you need more details... Keep'um Polished! Greg Martin PS Yuze Gize in the Altoona area stop in and see my Athearn F Units and see how their doin'. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:40:20 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] SOT: PP&L fireless cooker 7767 I asked:>> A slightly off topic request...I was browsing Wes Barris' Steamloco pages >> (http://www.steamlocomotive.com/) and came across information that PP&L >> 0-6-0 # 7767, a fireless cooker, was at the Blue Mountain & Reading in the >> early 90's. Does anyone know if this loco is still there, or where it >> ended up? Jerry Replied >I can't speak for the 0-6-0, but a PP&L 0-8-0 "fireless" is at the Railroad >Museum of Pennsylvania. > >Don't know if my recollection is to this loco or to a newer acquisition >(perhaps your 0-6-0), but in one of the recent issues of "The Milepost" >(museum newsletter) I know that there was mention of a PP&L steamer becoming >part of the collection that previously switched at Safe Harbor! VERY INTERESTING! As mentioned, the Safe Harbor 0-6-0 was probably not a fireless cooker, so does RR Museum of Pa have a PP&L 0-6-0T on the property? The 0-8-0 fireless cooker at RR Museum of Pa is #4095, and as I recall was used further up river. I looked around the RR Museum of Pa site, but was again disappointed by the lack of info at the site. They do list No. 111 Bethlehem Steel Company, 0-4-0, "Fireless", built Heisler Locomotive Works, Erie, PA, 1941 as well as No. 1251 Reading Railroad, 0-6-0T, Class B4a, built Reading Shops, Sept., 1918. I recall that one of our members has some pages on this, but all of my bookmarks for RR Museum of PRR sites are outdated. BTW, Wayne "cos" Beatty does have a nice photo of a PP&L cooker that looks very much like #7767, but no number visibile at http://www.wsbcos.com/pplfireless.jpg Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:51:44 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Northbound coal Lee Rainey wrote: >I imagine many of you have the Audio Visual Designs Pennsy calendar. Have you >taken a good look at the photo this month? It shows an I-1 pushing a string >on coal hoppers onto the dock at Sodus Point. Great picture!!! > >As I admired it, it gradually sunk in that of the 5 hoppers whose road name >is visible, two are B&O, one is Nickel Plate, one is Clinchfield, and the >fifth is illegible but clearly not Pennsy. > >What is going on here? Normal everyday traffic on the PRR . In spite of what some folks might have you beleive, the PRR did not handle its own extensive fleet of hoppers exclusively. If you examine yard photos from around the system (especially Lines East) you will see hoppers from a wide variety of eastern roads. In the case of coal going to Sodus, there are photos in Calaroso's book of D&H cars as well as a variety of others. Having been invovled in lengthy discussions (mostly hot air frankly) on a couple of other lists on this topic recently, I think that the perception of "home road use" of coal cars is often a mistaken assumption based on the cars seen on coal loading branches of the home system. The PRR shipped coal from other areas of the country, not just mines serviced by PRR tracks. Also, coal is not a single commodity, but many different commodities depending on size, sulfur content etc, and buyers can specify the type of coal they want/need, which gets shipped from the cheaps/nearest (not encessarily the same) source. Hence if you figured on a fleet of 35 H21s to 25 GLA to ..., you need to figure in some foreighn cars as well. The best source of information would obviously be manifests of the actual trains, but barring that, those photos come in might handy Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com poll Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:57:25 -0400 Andy and list: I don't know that it's location. Andy Sperandeo has been a Santa Fe "freak'"ever since he was in high school and worked afternoons in the Hub Hobby Shop in "Noo Awluns". They paid him in Santa Fe models. I recall he worked an awful long time for the PFM "Blue Goose" and lived in fear it would be sold before he earned enough for it! Santa fe did not get anywhere near New Orleans. I'm surprised DT&I (Jim Hediger) was not listed. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Miller" To: Cc: Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com poll > Lee, > Consider who's taking the poll (Kalmbach) and where they are located > (Milwaukee). I'm not surprised B&O, NKP, ERIE, NH, etc are not listed. > I'm surprised they didn't include, Rock Island, CNW, CGW, SOO, WC, ... > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > =================================================== > > LeeRainey@aol.com wrote: > > > > In a message dated 4/20/2001 7:45:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: > > > > << trains.com, run by Kalmbach Publishing, has been running a poll on > > "Favorite > > railroad to model". Since its inception, ATSF was first, PRR second, and UP > > third. This morning UP has overtaken PRR. We can't let Uncle Pete upstage > > "The Standard Rai,.road of the World" can we? If you have not voted in this > > poll yet I urge you to do so and get your friends and relatives to do so as > > well. >> > > > > I looked at the list (and voted). Pooh! It is not even close. In the list > > they give there, PRR is not just the obvious choice -- it is the ONLY choice. > > If they had included the B&O or maybe the NKP, it might have been tough to > > decide. But Milwaukee Road? Great Northern? Get serious! What is model > > railroading coming to? > > > > Disgruntled geezer (aka Lee Rainey) > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:53:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: What trucks on F-30D From: John Sheets Jerry My TT manual showed these cars as follows: Class F-30D, F30G "These cars are equipped with one (1) hitch for the transportation of one (1) trailer up to 43' in length, The underframe is cast steel with a wooden floor. Conventional draft gears are used for end of car cushioning. This car has 70 ton trucks with a 50 ton spring group." My recollection was they were built with friction bearings, probably a Barber or ASF design, although by the time Trailer Train got them, roller bearings had been added within the old friction housing, no box lids. Eventually some were re-equipped with more modern roller bearing trucks with roller sideframes. I have a picture of TTX475051 I can scan and send you if it helps. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:15:26 -0400 From: prrbill Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com poll Jerry Britton wrote: > > On 4/20/01 12:05 PM, BPX29@aol.com (BPX29@aol.com) wrote: > > > What kinda poll is this anyway? They got the IC but not the B&O? whaaat? > > (Actually, I'm glad they left out the NKP: that road got all it's popularity > > from Kalmbach and Tony Koester). > > But we can see through this nonsense. Fine a line as it is, the Santa Fe draws > > most of it's attraction from it's warbonnet paint scheme, not any railroading > > savvy. Folks like the SP because they're told the Daylight was 'the most > > beautiful train in the world", and the UP well, what can you say. It's been > > around forever, one of the few roads still holding the same nane for over a > > century, and it's always gotten good publicity. Besides, it's all a lot of > > people ever see. > > Okay, so the PRR is known for its technical savvy. Here, take this test: > > 1. Go to the www.trains.com site and vote for the PRR. > > 2. Open the Preferences of your browser, view the Cookies that are saved, > and delete the one from the server "www.trains.com" that is named > "SurveyTaken74". Close the Cookies window. > > 3. Repeat step 1 and vote again, and again, and again!!! > > So much for scientific polls!!! It seems that Jerry has decided to imitate that great old Philadelphia tradition of "vote early; vote often." This follows those other great Philly traditions of: A) having ghost voters (those recently or not-so-recently deceased) go to the polls and B) having your pet dog (cat, goldfish, etc.) registered to vote. Of course, we don't claim to have a monopoly on creating these great ideas. Many municipalities over the decades have come up with their own gems. :) Bill Morlitz ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:15:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com poll and DTI Gregg wrote: "I'm surprised DT&I (Jim Hediger) was not listed." Well, considering the anti-Pennsy bias (or probably more likely blind spot) we seem to have identified, it makes sense the DT&I was not listed. Wasn't it largely owned by the Pennsy at one time? That could also explain why N&W did not make the list. Hmmm. ee ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:43:33 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Northbound coal "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: (in part) >. . . I think that the perception > of "home road use" of coal cars is often a mistaken assumption based on the > cars seen on coal loading branches of the home system. The PRR shipped > coal from other areas of the country, not just mines serviced by PRR > tracks. -- Bruce, I arrived at that conclusion from the Freight Car Registry. After each RRs itemized listing, there is a summary of cars by type (and often class); how many 40' box car, how many 50' box cars, how many covered hoppers, etc. But they NEVER count hoppers, as if no one off the road cared how many hoppers any foreign road owned. My assumption has been that it was exceedingly rare for hoppers to be interchanged. I'm open to other explanations of the hopper omission in the registry. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:45:07 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com poll and DTI Well, 60% of the N&W could have made the list. The PRR only owned 40% ;-) regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== LeeRainey@aol.com wrote: > > Gregg wrote: "I'm surprised DT&I (Jim Hediger) was not listed." > > Well, considering the anti-Pennsy bias (or probably more likely blind spot) > we seem to have identified, it makes sense the DT&I was not listed. Wasn't it > largely owned by the Pennsy at one time? That could also explain why N&W did > not make the list. > > Hmmm. > > ee ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com poll and DTI Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 16:52:28 -0400 Lee and list:- DT&I was owned by the Wabash (after Henry Ford). Of course, PRR owned the Wabash but the stock was in trust and PRR could not vote it, When WAB merged with N&W in 1964, the PRR took over the Wabash's share of the DT&I, which stayed with the Penn Central after the Conrail takeover. So PRR actually only owned the DT&I for less than 4 years, Oct. 1964 to Feb 1, 1968. PC finally sold it to CN, who in turn sold it to RailTex, which was bought by RailAmerica. Kinda like a foster child, no? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 4:15 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com poll and DTI > Gregg wrote: "I'm surprised DT&I (Jim Hediger) was not listed." > > Well, considering the anti-Pennsy bias (or probably more likely blind spot) > we seem to have identified, it makes sense the DT&I was not listed. Wasn't it > largely owned by the Pennsy at one time? That could also explain why N&W did > not make the list. > > Hmmm. > > ee > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Northbound coal Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:04:01 -0400 Andy: I do not know what "Freight Car Registry" you are referring to, but railroads did indeed interchange hoppers. Certainly the Interstate and the Cambria & Indiana did not move coal on line exclusively! It has only been in the unit train era that coal has tended, and only tended, toward more single line movements. But BNSF and UP still cannot get unit trains to Georgia. When I was with the Erie Western, we got Kentucky coal off the L&N at Berne, IN, which was on the former PRR (GR&I) line in L&N hoppers. Since coal is a hundred commodities, not one as the railroad views it, no railroad even the mighty PRR could source every type of coal from mines on its line. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Miller" To: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Cc: Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 4:43 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Northbound coal > "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: (in part) > >. . . I think that the perception > > of "home road use" of coal cars is often a mistaken assumption based on the > > cars seen on coal loading branches of the home system. The PRR shipped > > coal from other areas of the country, not just mines serviced by PRR > > tracks. > -- > > Bruce, > I arrived at that conclusion from the Freight Car Registry. After each > RRs itemized listing, there is a summary of cars by type (and often > class); how many 40' box car, how many 50' box cars, how many covered > hoppers, etc. But they NEVER count hoppers, as if no one off the road > cared how many hoppers any foreign road owned. > > My assumption has been that it was exceedingly rare for hoppers to be > interchanged. I'm open to other explanations of the hopper omission in > the registry. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > =================================================== > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Re: {PRR} trains.com poll Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:17:02 -0400 Gentlemen, I have cast my ballots for the beloved PRR. (keep in mind that to eliminate ALL cookies, go programs, followed by accessories, then system tools, and then disk clean up. Get all of them. Happy voting ;-) Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: What trucks on F-30D Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:29:13 -0700 On Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:53:09 -0500 John Sheets wrote: > My recollection was they were built with friction > bearings, Time for my weekly rant and rave (not just yet,guys, I gotta get this off my chest before you take me away!) Lets get one thing straight...THERE AIN'T NO SUCH THING AS "FRICTION" BEARINGS. I feel better now, I really do.... A couple of years ago I club I belong to had a presentation by some guy who worked for Timken (I got a nifty coffee mug with a stylized ceramic Timken wheel bearing cap on it out of the talk) and he admitted that the term "friction bearing" had been invented by Timken to denigrate what correctly are termed "conventional journal bearings". Of course, the term "friction bearing" is an oxymoron. According to a Baldwin book printed in the mid 1940's on Steam Locomotives (I forget the name at this time) conventional bearings (if properly maintained)(ah...there's the rub!) had identical rolling charachteristics to roller bearings at all speeds above 15 mph. Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:37:23 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: {PRR} trains.com poll It would appear that not only was the PRR technologically astute, so are its fans ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Walt Prusick wrote: > > Gentlemen, > I have cast my ballots for the beloved PRR. (keep in mind that to eliminate > ALL cookies, go programs, followed by accessories, then system tools, and > then disk clean up. Get all of them. > > Happy voting ;-) > Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 17:34:42 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Northbound coal Gregg, I believe my edition is March 1952. And I have found no RR in it listing a summary of its open hoppers! Perhaps in more recent years this has changed, and perhaps the omission is not an indication that they were not frequently interchanged. What you say makes sense, however, I am still at a loss to explain why hoppers were singled out for exclusion. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > Andy: > > I do not know what "Freight Car Registry" you are referring to, but > railroads did indeed interchange hoppers. Certainly the Interstate and the > Cambria & Indiana did not move coal on line exclusively! It has only been in > the unit train era that coal has tended, and only tended, toward more single > line movements. But BNSF and UP still cannot get unit trains to Georgia. > When I was with the Erie Western, we got Kentucky coal off the L&N at Berne, > IN, which was on the former PRR (GR&I) line in L&N hoppers. Since coal is a > hundred commodities, not one as the railroad views it, no railroad even the > mighty PRR could source every type of coal from mines on its line. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andy Miller" > To: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." > Cc: > Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 4:43 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Northbound coal > > > "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: (in part) > > >. . . I think that the perception > > > of "home road use" of coal cars is often a mistaken assumption based on > the > > > cars seen on coal loading branches of the home system. The PRR shipped > > > coal from other areas of the country, not just mines serviced by PRR > > > tracks. > > -- > > > > Bruce, > > I arrived at that conclusion from the Freight Car Registry. After each > > RRs itemized listing, there is a summary of cars by type (and often > > class); how many 40' box car, how many 50' box cars, how many covered > > hoppers, etc. But they NEVER count hoppers, as if no one off the road > > cared how many hoppers any foreign road owned. > > > > My assumption has been that it was exceedingly rare for hoppers to be > > interchanged. I'm open to other explanations of the hopper omission in > > the registry. > > > > Regards, > > > > Andy Miller > > asmiller@mitre.org > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] Stupid train tricks... Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:43:00 -0700 Hi listers, and listerenes... While perusing some of my books for photos of N5 class cabin cars I ran across an interesting photo in Kalmbach's THE HEART OF THE PENNSYLVANIA. After looking long and hard at the photo on Page 41 (a nice moody night shot in Harrisburg) I realized with a start that the caprion was in error! Your task, if you decide to take it on, is simple...exactly what is wrong with the caption? A hint...as a result of discovering this error, I realized that one of the trains pictured is either coming from, or going to Baltimore (I am not familiar with Harrisburg, so I can't say which way the train is going...and the direction is NOT the answer!) Of course, no prizes for correct answers (or incorrect ones for that matter), just bragging rights for a day or so... One more thing...I did find another N5 with the Bowser arrangement of lavatory vent (No. 477101) pictured in the book... Bill Daniels Tucson, AZ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: trains.com poll [PRR-n_scale] Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:16:59 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell On 20 Apr, "Gregg Mahlkov" wrote: > trains.com, run by Kalmbach Publishing, has been running a poll on "Favorite > railroad to model". Since its inception, ATSF was first, PRR second, and UP > third. This morning UP has overtaken PRR. We can't let Uncle Pete upstage > "The Standard Rai,.road of the World" can we? Just voted, and PRR is now first at 20%, with ATSF a distant second at 13%. Way to go! Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 18:33:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Train Show notice/reminder List, Just wanted to put out the notice/reminder to those listers in the Western Pa, Beaver County and surronding areas that the Beaver County Model Railroad Club is holding their semi annual Train Sale (all scales) at The Center Stage, Old Brodhead Road, Monaca, Pa. (near the Beaver Valley Mall) on Sunday April 22nd from 10am-3pm. If your in the area stop on in. I have met other listers there in the past as well. Easy to get to if taking Route 60. See you there! I will be there all day wearing the Cyber Div. Shirt.........Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:13:08 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com poll In a message dated 4/20/01 1:50:04 PM Central Daylight Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << I'm surprised they didn't include, Rock Island, CNW, CGW, SOO, WC, ... >> All great railroads. We are not camping out with the Indians out here, Easterners :-). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Northbound coal Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:35:19 -0400 Andy: Are you referring to "The Official Railway Equipment Register", issued quarterly since 1910? If so, I now know what summaries you are referring to. If you will look closer, you will find that not all railroads even have such summaries, as they were not required (remember the ORER was a tariff filed with the ICC and state commissions). In 1952, virtually all railroad hoppers were 50 tonners, whereas boxcars and gondolas varied widely in length (boxes from 36 to 70 ft. and gons from 40 to 65 ft) and had widely different heights. Remember such cars were used for manufactured products as well as bulk commodities, so dimensions were much more important than for hoppers, used exclusively for bulk. With bulk commodities, the only things that matter are weight carrying capacity and cube. The summaries were for shippers, not other railroads or the ICC. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Miller" To: "Gregg Mahlkov" Cc: Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 5:34 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Northbound coal > Gregg, > > I believe my edition is March 1952. And I have found no RR in it > listing a summary of its open hoppers! Perhaps in more recent years > this has changed, and perhaps the omission is not an indication that > they were not frequently interchanged. > > What you say makes sense, however, I am still at a loss to explain why > hoppers were singled out for exclusion. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > =================================================== > Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > > > Andy: > > > > I do not know what "Freight Car Registry" you are referring to, but > > railroads did indeed interchange hoppers. Certainly the Interstate and the > > Cambria & Indiana did not move coal on line exclusively! It has only been in > > the unit train era that coal has tended, and only tended, toward more single > > line movements. But BNSF and UP still cannot get unit trains to Georgia. > > When I was with the Erie Western, we got Kentucky coal off the L&N at Berne, > > IN, which was on the former PRR (GR&I) line in L&N hoppers. Since coal is a > > hundred commodities, not one as the railroad views it, no railroad even the > > mighty PRR could source every type of coal from mines on its line. > > > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Andy Miller" > > To: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." > > Cc: > > Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 4:43 PM > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Northbound coal > > > > > "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: (in part) > > > >. . . I think that the perception > > > > of "home road use" of coal cars is often a mistaken assumption based on > > the > > > > cars seen on coal loading branches of the home system. The PRR shipped > > > > coal from other areas of the country, not just mines serviced by PRR > > > > tracks. > > > -- > > > > > > Bruce, > > > I arrived at that conclusion from the Freight Car Registry. After each > > > RRs itemized listing, there is a summary of cars by type (and often > > > class); how many 40' box car, how many 50' box cars, how many covered > > > hoppers, etc. But they NEVER count hoppers, as if no one off the road > > > cared how many hoppers any foreign road owned. > > > > > > My assumption has been that it was exceedingly rare for hoppers to be > > > interchanged. I'm open to other explanations of the hopper omission in > > > the registry. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Andy Miller > > > asmiller@mitre.org > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: trains.com poll [PRR-n_scale] Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:44:01 -0400 Dennis: I just checked the poll. "All others" is still in first place, PRR has the most of any railroad at 13 pct., but ATSF also has 13 pct. but evidently fewer votes. Great to see such a response. I am sure some of the manufacturers will consider this an 'independent' poll so hopefuilly we will see more PRR models in the future! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Rockwell" To: Cc: Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 6:16 PM Subject: [PRR] Re: trains.com poll [PRR-n_scale] > On 20 Apr, "Gregg Mahlkov" wrote: > > > trains.com, run by Kalmbach Publishing, has been running a poll on "Favorite > > railroad to model". Since its inception, ATSF was first, PRR second, and UP > > third. This morning UP has overtaken PRR. We can't let Uncle Pete upstage > > "The Standard Rai,.road of the World" can we? > > Just voted, and PRR is now first at 20%, with ATSF a distant > second at 13%. > > Way to go! > > Dennis > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lmatt" Subject: Re: [PRR] SOT: PP&L fireless cooker 7767 Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 21:37:59 -0400 Dear Friends: To the best of my recollections, there was a narrow gage 0-4-0 tank engine at Safe Harbor left there by the contractors. It was on a track that was isolated from any other tracks so couldn't be pulled out. Safe Harbor used several small gasoline "critters" in narrow gage, but I don't ever remember a "fireless cooker" stationed there. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." To: Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 3:40 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] SOT: PP&L fireless cooker 7767 > I asked:>> A slightly off topic request...I was browsing Wes Barris' > Steamloco pages > >> (http://www.steamlocomotive.com/) and came across information that PP&L > >> 0-6-0 # 7767, a fireless cooker, was at the Blue Mountain & Reading in the > >> early 90's. Does anyone know if this loco is still there, or where it > >> ended up? > > Jerry Replied > >I can't speak for the 0-6-0, but a PP&L 0-8-0 "fireless" is at the Railroad > >Museum of Pennsylvania. > > > >Don't know if my recollection is to this loco or to a newer acquisition > >(perhaps your 0-6-0), but in one of the recent issues of "The Milepost" > >(museum newsletter) I know that there was mention of a PP&L steamer becoming > >part of the collection that previously switched at Safe Harbor! > > VERY INTERESTING! As mentioned, the Safe Harbor 0-6-0 was probably not a > fireless cooker, so does RR Museum of Pa have a PP&L 0-6-0T on the > property? The 0-8-0 fireless cooker at RR Museum of Pa is #4095, and as I > recall was used further up river. I looked around the RR Museum of Pa > site, but was again disappointed by the lack of info at the site. They do > list No. 111 Bethlehem Steel Company, 0-4-0, "Fireless", built Heisler > Locomotive Works, Erie, PA, 1941 as well as No. 1251 Reading Railroad, > 0-6-0T, Class B4a, built Reading Shops, Sept., 1918. > > I recall that one of our members has some pages on this, but all of my > bookmarks for RR Museum of PRR sites are outdated. BTW, Wayne "cos" Beatty > does have a nice photo of a PP&L cooker that looks very much like #7767, > but no number visibile at http://www.wsbcos.com/pplfireless.jpg > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:00:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] O scale Greg, list I would be interested in a D16sb or K2s/K2sa if they were offered with electric round headlights in a 1920s/1930s/1940s configuration. The oil buring headlight era doesn't interest me as much as this period; I would prefer P70s for passenger cars. Doug --- GAS wrote, in part: > I wonder how many O scalers on the list would be > interested in an importer > doing the early pennsy engines, i.e. the D16sb, E2, > the K2 or the K28? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:11:38 -0700 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Northbound coal Hi Lee, All, It may be worse than you think. According to a friend who grew up in Elmira, or some town close to there on the Branch, it was common to see PRR power hauling entire consists of, dare I say it, Uncle NYC hoppers in that area. I'll check with him for more details and get back to you. Later, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 21:08:36 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re; what trucks on F-30d From: John Sheets Bill No offense, weekly rant aside, just what would you call them? I worked on ATSF and CNW intermodal, and we called them friction, any student of physics recognizes some level of "friction" exists in any physical body, so just what would you call them? waiting? John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re; what trucks on F-30d Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 22:53:51 -0400 List: Many people referred in the industry to those bearings consisting of brasses and oil saturated cotton waste "plain" bearings as opposed to (fancy) roller bearings. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Sheets" To: ; "PRR Talk" Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 10:08 PM Subject: [PRR] Re; what trucks on F-30d > Bill > > No offense, weekly rant aside, just what would you call them? > > I worked on ATSF and CNW intermodal, and we called them friction, any > student of physics recognizes some level of "friction" exists in any > physical body, so just what would you call them? > > waiting? > > John > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:21:05 -0700 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Stupid train tricks... Hi Bill, All, Hard to tell but is the K4 on the left actually a K4? It appears to have a transversely mounted air tank on the pilot; Mountain or Mikado? Don't know ops in that area so don't see what tells you Balto-bound. Later, Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] SOT: PP&L fireless cooker 7767 Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 23:18:36 -0400 If it rains tomorrow, I'll try to get by Strasburg and take a gander at what is in the yard. Cos Wayne S. Betty President Cos Communications, Inc. Home Page Rail Road Pages -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 3:40 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] SOT: PP&L fireless cooker 7767 I asked:>> A slightly off topic request...I was browsing Wes Barris' Steamloco pages >> (http://www.steamlocomotive.com/) and came across information that PP&L >> 0-6-0 # 7767, a fireless cooker, was at the Blue Mountain & Reading in the >> early 90's. Does anyone know if this loco is still there, or where it >> ended up? Jerry Replied >I can't speak for the 0-6-0, but a PP&L 0-8-0 "fireless" is at the Railroad >Museum of Pennsylvania. > >Don't know if my recollection is to this loco or to a newer acquisition >(perhaps your 0-6-0), but in one of the recent issues of "The Milepost" >(museum newsletter) I know that there was mention of a PP&L steamer becoming >part of the collection that previously switched at Safe Harbor! VERY INTERESTING! As mentioned, the Safe Harbor 0-6-0 was probably not a fireless cooker, so does RR Museum of Pa have a PP&L 0-6-0T on the property? The 0-8-0 fireless cooker at RR Museum of Pa is #4095, and as I recall was used further up river. I looked around the RR Museum of Pa site, but was again disappointed by the lack of info at the site. They do list No. 111 Bethlehem Steel Company, 0-4-0, "Fireless", built Heisler Locomotive Works, Erie, PA, 1941 as well as No. 1251 Reading Railroad, 0-6-0T, Class B4a, built Reading Shops, Sept., 1918. I recall that one of our members has some pages on this, but all of my bookmarks for RR Museum of PRR sites are outdated. BTW, Wayne "cos" Beatty does have a nice photo of a PP&L cooker that looks very much like #7767, but no number visibile at http://www.wsbcos.com/pplfireless.jpg Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 20:31:22 -0700 From: Ron Dugas Subject: Re: [PRR] Stupid train tricks... Hi again, After looking at it more I'm now not thinking it is an air tank. So I'm in the dark again. Ron. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 23:30:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Stupid train tricks... Ron, Bill, Actually the loco on the right is not a K4. It is one of the K5's. Note no Bell in front of the sand dome. Must be tucked under the headlight. Note the turbo generator location and exhaust!!! As for a K4 on the left, it is hard to tell but that does look like a tank on the pilot. Possible M1 with short tender.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Stupid train tricks... Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 22:39:12 -0500 Bill-- Very nice observation! The Pacific on the right in the photo is not a K4, but K5 5699. The tip off is the location of the turbo-generator exhaust which shows up well in the existing light. Only on 5699 was the generator mounted on the engineman's side of the smokebox, rather than in PRR's "standard" position ahead of the stack. The Baltimore connection is that the K5's were regularly assigned to Baltimore-Harrisburg trains, at least according to some photo caption somewhere which may or may not be correct....... Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 08:53:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Cresson & Gallitzin Questions Continue Jerry & List. Since no one caught my big boo boo I will correct it now. The outside loop(towards Cresson)is the Altoona loop. The inside loop(towards Altoona) is the Conemaugh loop. Took a bit last eve to get the map I wanted dug out as the valuation sheet was not marked. The person I got the info from earlier was pretty sure he was correct but alas he was going from memory. Pat ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 09:46:10 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com poll The PRR (19%) has opened up a 5 point lead over ATSF (14%) which is neck and neck with the UP (13%) followed by a distant SR (10%). Keep those votes flowing in. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:11:53 EDT Subject: [PRR] ORER Car summary was part of Northbound coal Andy: I just check the April 1952 ORER. There are several types of cars not summarized other than open top hoppers. There is no summary of gons, flat cars less than 50 feet in length unless specially equipped or for heavy capacity. So is it a question of why excluded or why included? Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 09:45:16 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: Re; what trucks on F-30d From: John Sheets Bill Of course , you are "technically" correct, but I can't imagine a car knocker (err....car person) coming up to me and saying that the "B end #1 on XXX 123456 with conventional journal bearings is hot" John > From: > Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 19:27:38 -0700 > To: John Sheets > Subject: Re: Re; what trucks on F-30d > > John, > > Conventional Journal Bearings. Plain and simple. > > Over the last 50 years or so the concept of "friction" > bearings has pretty much taken hold in the industry. When I > was in the Navy, we were taught the principle of > lubrication, which is the same concept...except in the Navy > it is the bearings that support the main (and auxiliary) > turbines aboard ship. No rollers there... > > The concept is that the oil forms a wedge under the babbit > metal and, since oil is incompressible, it supports the > weight of the car, turbine impeller or whatever. Works > fine...lasts a long time...and is (suprisingly enough) > sailorproof! > > The big problem with conventional journal bearings in > railroad service was > 1) the oil had to be constantly refilled in the cellars. By > hand. > 2) the back plate on these bearings was always leaking > (which is why they always had to be refilled). Over the > wheel face (this is why all wheels on journal bearing > equipped trucks were dead black...the oil got all over > everything and picked up dirt. As you probably know, from > working under your car, when something gets oily and dirty > it is the blackest black there is... > The oil also occasionally got onto the rail, causing wheel > slip (not usually a problem with steam, but diesels with > their electric transmission had a major problem > 3) originally the oil cellars were filled with waste (you > might remember the discussion of just what was cotton waste > a couple of weeks ago), which either broke down or during a > hard joint the car would lift slightly off it's bearing, and > a string of waste would get caught under it, causing the > bearing to wipe...aka the dreaded hotbox. Sometimes a hobo > would rob the cellar for waste to build a fire (most common > during the winter) resulting in another hotbox. > Later on, the industry developed a pad that did the same job > as the waste, and did not get caught under the bearing. It > had clips to hold it in place (and crews quickly nicknamed > these pads as "Kotexes".) > 4) during cold weather, the oil would become viscous, and > rolling resistance would increase. Trains would need helpers > in order to start (although once rolling, the heat built up > rapidly and the oil did it's job) > > Roller bearings removed most of these obsticles...but it > took 50 years for them to become universal in the industry. > However, a properly designed journal bearing would perform > similarly to a roller bearing...Espee tried rollers in the > last 2 Daylight painted 4-8-4's (class GS-5) received, but > their own patented spring pad lubricator performed so well, > the additional price of the rollers was not considered > advantageous. No other GS locomotives were retrofitted with > rollers > > > Hope this answers some of your questions... > > Bill Daniels > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:50:57 EDT Subject: [PRR] Dams along the PRR PRR List, Weren't there more dams on the Susquehanna River downstream of Harrisburg. I was just wondering if the dam I saw the 0-6-0 tank engine and Pennsy hoppers at may have been somewhere other than Safe Harbour? Wasn't/isn't there a Conowingo (sp?) dam south of Harrisburg that was served by the Pennsy? All of the trackage was on the upstream side of the dam coming in from the east shore. Also, don't recall the massive high line bridge on this particular trip. 1958 wasn't that long ago was it? Wish I had been into photography back then! Afterall, that stuff was going to be around forever, right!? Evan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "John H. Wright" Subject: [PRR] Colour postcard .... comments invited. Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 15:50:23 +0100 To the list. The recent post about yet another picture puzzle has prompted me to mention a Colour Postcard I picked up some weeks ago for the princely sum of about $2. It's an original and looks as though it was produced around 1920 by the legendary Locomotive Publishing Co. of Amen Corner, London and shows 3 Pennsylvania Lines 2-8-0s (an H6 and two H8s) triple heading a long coal drag of 60 cars. Making no comment about the rarity of this card to the seller, in fact its the first LPC view I have seen of any American subject, I shot out of the building like a rat out of a trap :-) The card is a print of a hand-painted photograph and has the look and feel of the photographer, artist and co. owner F. Moore about it, though it is not signed in the bottom RH corner as usual. Originals by him are extremely collectable. Here's my question .......... the locomotives in the picture have been coloured Dark Blue. Is this a flight of fancy of the artist or did Lines West locos carry this livery c. 1920? Though I cannot recall any mention of blue anywhere in the Pennsy scheme of things, however. For those who can access the internet I have posted a scan of the card on the Pennsy Pages at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ Click on the Steam Locomotives button and scroll down the list. Regards, John H. Wright Washington, England PRR in the 1940s (plus B & O and NYC) Web sites at: http://home.freeuk.net/nmrabr/ and http://www.xclent.clara.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Fw: [PRR] Re; what trucks on F-30d Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:34:26 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" To: Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 9:57 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Re; what trucks on F-30d > Roger:- > > The short line railroad industry. The Master Mechanics (Chief Mechanical > Officers) of the short lines I have worked for. Maybe they were as stupid > as I am. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roger P. Hensley" > To: "Gregg Mahlkov" > Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 6:24 PM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re; what trucks on F-30d > > > > > From: "Gregg Mahlkov" > > > To: "John Sheets" , , > > > "PRR Talk" > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re; what trucks on F-30d > > > Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 22:53:51 -0400 > > > > > List: > > > > > > Many people referred in the industry to those bearings consisting > > > of brasses and oil saturated cotton waste "plain" bearings as > > > opposed to (fancy) roller bearings. > > > > > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > > > > What industry? Which people? > > > > It would seem that the people who had daily contact with > > them called them 'Friction Bearings.' I don't believe too > > many people here are interested in changing simply because > > someone decides that they know better than the people in > > the industry itself. > > > > I'll stick with 'Friction Bearings' myself. It is a very > > apt description of the bearing. > > > > > > Roger > > > > Roger Hensley - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com > > > > === You have the Green. Highball! === > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com poll Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:43:58 -0400 List: The amounts for each railroad are BELOW it. "Other" still leads at 19 pct, with PRR at 14 pct. and ATSF down to 12 pct. and UP still at 10 pct. Considering the number of popular roads left out it's not surprising that "Other" still leads. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'll bet there are more New Haven or Erie modelers than Illinois Central modelers. IC is in the poll but NH and Erie are not. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 9:46 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com poll > The PRR (19%) has opened up a 5 point lead over ATSF (14%) which is neck and > neck with the UP (13%) followed by a distant SR (10%). > > Keep those votes flowing in. > > Rich Orr > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "m mcm" Subject: Re: [PRR] Northbound coal Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 13:21:07 -0400 Growing up in Driftwood Pennsylvania, one of our regular activities was to go down to the tracks and watch a nightly train come off of the Low Grade branch with Shawmut hoppers, as well as C&O and B&O hoppers. Pennsy hoppers in this drag were rare or non-existent. There were even some Reading and NYC hoppers in this consist. The caboose was usually an N5c. Late at night there was another train off of the Low Grade, but as it was well past my bedtime, I have no idea of the make-up except that given the squealing that it produced as well as the bridge rumble, it was probably coal. Mike Tronetti ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Miller" To: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Cc: Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 4:43 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Northbound coal > "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: (in part) > >. . . I think that the perception > > of "home road use" of coal cars is often a mistaken assumption based on the > > cars seen on coal loading branches of the home system. The PRR shipped > > coal from other areas of the country, not just mines serviced by PRR > > tracks. > -- > > Bruce, > I arrived at that conclusion from the Freight Car Registry. After each > RRs itemized listing, there is a summary of cars by type (and often > class); how many 40' box car, how many 50' box cars, how many covered > hoppers, etc. But they NEVER count hoppers, as if no one off the road > cared how many hoppers any foreign road owned. > > My assumption has been that it was exceedingly rare for hoppers to be > interchanged. I'm open to other explanations of the hopper omission in > the registry. > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > =================================================== > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] Re; what trucks on F-30d Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 10:16:58 -0700 Greg, and all, Nobody said you were stupid... But, as I mentioned, a long-time Timken representative stated that the name was instigated by Timken as a marketing move over 50 years ago. The railroad industry had used plain bearings for so long that they felt that the only way they could gain what nowadays is termed "market share" was to create the image that the competition to their product was inherently inferior. Must have worked :-) Back then, roller bearings were so uncommon (in freight service) that the only distinction that was made by workers who had to service the bearings of cars was for roller bearings, as the plain bearing was so common as not to require a special name to distinguish it. If you stop and think about it, bearings are (by definition) an anti-friction device, whether they use the theory of lubrication, rollers, balls or other device to reduce friction. Hence my statement that calling plain (or journal) bearings "friction bearings" must be an oxymoron, but over 50 years of usage has caused it to enter the lexicon. Plain bearings actually work quite well, as evidenced by their continued use on large turbines, which revolve at high speeds, and are intolerant of even the most minor amount of mis-alignment. The shortcomings of plain bearings due to changes in viscosity of the lubricating oil in low temperatures, and the high level of manual maintenance that was required to avoid catstrophic failures far outweighed the cost advantages, especially when labor costs skyrocketed in the late 1940's and 1950's. Bill Daniels On Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:34:26 -0400 "Gregg Mahlkov" wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gregg Mahlkov" > To: > Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 9:57 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re; what trucks on F-30d > > > > Roger:- > > > > The short line railroad industry. The Master Mechanics > (Chief Mechanical > > Officers) of the short lines I have worked for. Maybe > they were as stupid > > as I am. > > > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Roger P. Hensley" > > To: "Gregg Mahlkov" > > Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 6:24 PM > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re; what trucks on F-30d > > > > > > > > From: "Gregg Mahlkov" > > > > To: "John Sheets" , > , > > > > "PRR Talk" > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re; what trucks on F-30d > > > > Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 22:53:51 -0400 > > > > > > > List: > > > > > > > > Many people referred in the industry to those > bearings consisting > > > > of brasses and oil saturated cotton waste "plain" > bearings as > > > > opposed to (fancy) roller bearings. > > > > > > > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > > > > > > > What industry? Which people? > > > > > > It would seem that the people who had daily contact > with > > > them called them 'Friction Bearings.' I don't believe > too > > > many people here are interested in changing simply > because > > > someone decides that they know better than the people > in > > > the industry itself. > > > > > > I'll stick with 'Friction Bearings' myself. It is a > very > > > apt description of the bearing. > > > > > > > > > Roger > > > > > > Roger Hensley - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com > > > > > > === You have the Green. Highball! === > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] Re; what trucks on F-30d Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 13:36:42 -0400 Bill: Bearings were a hot topic at the AN around 1990, when the CMO had to convince the Chairman that it was worth it to replace the plain bearings on three 37 year old SW9's with roller bearings. He did, and the three continued to serve until 1999, when they were sold after the AN's two principal customers shut down. This discussion has also taken place on the freight car list, where proper terminology discussions often go on for weeks. Bearings and the provision for trainman to access the roof of house cars seem to generate periodic discussions over "master car builders" terminology vs. layman's understanding of purpose. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Gregg Mahlkov" ; "John Sheets" ; ; Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 1:16 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] Re; what trucks on F-30d > Greg, and all, > > Nobody said you were stupid... > > But, as I mentioned, a long-time Timken representative > stated that the name was instigated by Timken as a marketing > move over 50 years ago. The railroad industry had used plain > bearings for so long that they felt that the only way they > could gain what nowadays is termed "market share" was to > create the image that the competition to their product was > inherently inferior. Must have worked :-) > > Back then, roller bearings were so uncommon (in freight > service) that the only distinction that was made by workers > who had to service the bearings of cars was for roller > bearings, as the plain bearing was so common as not to > require a special name to distinguish it. > > If you stop and think about it, bearings are (by definition) > an anti-friction device, whether they use the theory of > lubrication, rollers, balls or other device to reduce > friction. Hence my statement that calling plain (or journal) > bearings "friction bearings" must be an oxymoron, but over > 50 years of usage has caused it to enter the lexicon. > > Plain bearings actually work quite well, as evidenced by > their continued use on large turbines, which revolve at high > speeds, and are intolerant of even the most minor amount of > mis-alignment. > > The shortcomings of plain bearings due to changes in > viscosity of the lubricating oil in low temperatures, and > the high level of manual maintenance that was required to > avoid catastrophic failures far outweighed the cost > advantages, especially when labor costs skyrocketed in the > late 1940's and 1950's. > > Bill Daniels > > On Sat, 21 Apr 2001 11:34:26 -0400 > "Gregg Mahlkov" wrote: > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Gregg Mahlkov" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 9:57 AM > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re; what trucks on F-30d > > > > > > > Roger:- > > > > > > The short line railroad industry. The Master Mechanics > > (Chief Mechanical > > > Officers) of the short lines I have worked for. Maybe > > they were as stupid > > > as I am. > > > > > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Roger P. Hensley" > > > To: "Gregg Mahlkov" > > > Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 6:24 PM > > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re; what trucks on F-30d > > > > > > > > > > > From: "Gregg Mahlkov" > > > > > To: "John Sheets" , > > , > > > > > "PRR Talk" > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Re; what trucks on F-30d > > > > > Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 22:53:51 -0400 > > > > > > > > > List: > > > > > > > > > > Many people referred in the industry to those > > bearings consisting > > > > > of brasses and oil saturated cotton waste "plain" > > bearings as > > > > > opposed to (fancy) roller bearings. > > > > > > > > > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > > > > > > > > > > What industry? Which people? > > > > > > > > It would seem that the people who had daily contact > > with > > > > them called them 'Friction Bearings.' I don't believe > > too > > > > many people here are interested in changing simply > > because > > > > someone decides that they know better than the people > > in > > > > the industry itself. > > > > > > > > I'll stick with 'Friction Bearings' myself. It is a > > very > > > > apt description of the bearing. > > > > > > > > > > > > Roger > > > > > > > > Roger Hensley - rhensley@anderson.cioe.com > > > > > > > > === You have the Green. Highball! === > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 13:43:11 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] Dams along the PRR There were two dams south of Harrisburg. Conowingo Dam (10 miles above Perryville at Rt. 1) and Safe Harbor Dam (32 miles above Perryville) The A & S double bridges are just above the dam. Safe Harbor dam provided electricity for this portion of the PRR. Hope this helps. Eddie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 16:32:25 EDT Subject: [PRR] Bearings In a message dated 4/21/01 1:21:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, billd@gci-net.com writes: << Back then, roller bearings were so uncommon (in freight service) that the only distinction that was made by workers who had to service the bearings of cars was for roller bearings, >> On the WM & C&O cars with roller bearing trucks were very visibly marked to warn crews handling them that they might be more "freewheeling" than expected (the identifying marks are modeled on Weaver "O" scale hoppers) Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 14:44:55 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Roller bearings The recent spate of emails about roller/non-roller bearings reminds me... A while ago someone reported finding a pamphlet touting Timken bearings, illustrated with a picture of an H-21 with inside bearing trucks. I remarked that Teichmoeller had mentioned something about that, someone in Oz paged through the whole article and came up with the exact reference. More recently I got a book on ACF cars, and in that there is a picture of a 2-bay hopper built by ACF for Timken in, I think, 1954, and it has inside bearing trucks. I also recall having seen one or two photos of steam locomotive tenders which had similar trucks, i.e., no sideframes; and some odd-ball industrial equipment similarly equiped. My questio(s): Why did such trucks never catch on, what were the designers of such trucks trying to accomplish, and given that in several decades the idea seems to have come up and been rejected several times, what made Timken think the railroads would buy into it this time? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: [PRR] PP&L Fireless Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 23:32:54 +0100 It is an 0-8-0 and I have a picture taken several years ago on my web site at www.prr.org.uk Patrick Grace ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 19:08:11 EDT Subject: Re: Fw: [PRR] Re; what trucks on F-30d Just a personal note on "friction" bearings. Two years ago we tried to have pieces D&RGW M.O.W. equipment moved from Salt Lake City to Denver, BUT, the Union Pacific will handle only roller bearing equipped equipment over their lines. Even as a special movement it would not be considered. Also, when an ex-PFE SW switcher was moved from Tucson to Denver, it moved by flat car as it had friction bearings. Mention "friction" bearings to a current-day railroader and you get the disaster-waiting-to-happen treatment. But then again, just as the roller bearing wasn't trusted in its infancy, today the friction bearing isn't understood. Just how well did the friction bearing hold up to the ultimate test during WWII ?! Evan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 21:30:18 EDT Subject: [PRR] Home road hoppers/solid blocks of one road In a message dated 4/20/01 7:35:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: << When I was with the Erie Western, we got Kentucky coal off the L&N at Berne, IN, which was on the former PRR (GR&I) line in L&N hoppers. Since coal is a hundred commodities, not one as the railroad views it, no railroad even the mighty PRR could source every type of coal from mines on its line. Gregg Mahlkov >> Gregg, Berne was on the GR&I, all right, but I would have anticipated the Erie Western's interchange to be a couple of stations north at Decatur IN. IIRC, Decatur (first major town south of Adams Tower on the GR&I) was the home in 1982 not only of a PRR brick station in surprisingly good shape, but an Erie tower that appeared to be still in Erie paint. Still, it's been a long time. As for L&N coal, as we established a year or two ago on PRR-Talk, the Panhandle rails interlined L&N, N&W, even C&O coal to many northern points, notably lake coal via Columbus (or Cincinnnati and Columbus), and Chicago coal via both Cincinnati and Louisville. We noted that trains of C&O cars might sometimes be visible on both the C&O Toledo and PRR Sandusky lines out of Columbus that paralleled each other through Marion Ohio. But a lot of evidence did/still does point to the idea that a train (other than its PRR engine and cabin) tended to be one road's hoppers, not the doggie-breakfasts that many modelers seem to like. Biggest mix I've seen was N&W trains after 1964, made up of hoppers from N&W, Virginian, NKP, and perhaps W&LE and WAB. Of course, those were all "home road" cars on the Norfolk & Western. Having said all that, we here in Louisville are trying to figure out what one D&H hopper was doing down here at PRR's coaling crane, 14th Street Roundhouse, on a day when the late Jack Fravert shot late steam there. Delivering coal for engines, obviously. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Modeling the Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 20:51:14 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Looking for Paul Prescott From: "William J. Ayers" List, I wish to contact Paul Prescott. If anyone knows how I may contact him, please respond to me off list. PRR content: regarding photos published in the Sept. 1981 "Keystone". Thanks in advance. Bill Ayers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Home road hoppers/solid blocks of one road Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 21:59:29 -0400 Rick & List:- Actually in Erie Western days, the L&N hoppers were received from the L&N at Wilders, IN, where the old Monon crossed the Erie, but was told by the Amish coal dealer that when it was PRR and PC service was better because the cars came up from Cincinnati. Coal trains, when they were run as solid coal trains, tended to be single line hoppers, which would be utility coal. But don't forget met coal and commercial heating coal, which well might be a "dog's breakfast" in a merchandise train. Since lake coal was a mix of utility and metallurgical coal, there were trains with blocks of different roads' cars in the same train. Coal was not my assignment in PRR traffic, but worked in the same office with coal people in Cleveland and Baltimore. Gregg Mahlkov (Decatur did have a handsome PRR station didn't it?) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 9:30 PM Subject: [PRR] Home road hoppers/solid blocks of one road > In a message dated 4/20/01 7:35:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > << When I was with the Erie Western, we got Kentucky coal off the L&N at > Berne, > IN, which was on the former PRR (GR&I) line in L&N hoppers. Since coal is a > hundred commodities, not one as the railroad views it, no railroad even the > mighty PRR could source every type of coal from mines on its line. > > Gregg Mahlkov > >> > > Gregg, > > Berne was on the GR&I, all right, but I would have anticipated the Erie > Western's interchange to be a couple of stations north at Decatur IN. IIRC, > Decatur (first major town south of Adams Tower on the GR&I) was the home in > 1982 not only of a PRR brick station in surprisingly good shape, but an Erie > tower that appeared to be still in Erie paint. Still, it's been a long time. > > As for L&N coal, as we established a year or two ago on PRR-Talk, the > Panhandle rails interlined L&N, N&W, even C&O coal to many northern points, > notably lake coal via Columbus (or Cincinnnati and Columbus), and Chicago > coal via both Cincinnati and Louisville. We noted that trains of C&O cars > might sometimes be visible on both the C&O Toledo and PRR Sandusky lines out > of Columbus that paralleled each other through Marion Ohio. > > But a lot of evidence did/still does point to the idea that a train (other > than its PRR engine and cabin) tended to be one road's hoppers, not the > doggie-breakfasts that many modelers seem to like. Biggest mix I've seen was > N&W trains after 1964, made up of hoppers from N&W, Virginian, NKP, and > perhaps W&LE and WAB. Of course, those were all "home road" cars on the > Norfolk & Western. > > Having said all that, we here in Louisville are trying to figure out what one > D&H hopper was doing down here at PRR's coaling crane, 14th Street > Roundhouse, on a day when the late Jack Fravert shot late steam there. > Delivering coal for engines, obviously. > > Til the next train out, > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > Modeling the Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 > (HO) > Operating the Panhandle Route > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 22:25:24 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Grif Teller art exhibition opens at Strasburg (long) Greetings to Jerry and the List: For all who are within driving distance of the Railroad Museum of Pa. at Strasburg, or who will be traveling that way, here's some news. The museum now has a significant display of Grif Teller art that will remain on exhibition through Dec. 31. Titled "From the Palette of Grif Teller," the exhibition opened Friday night, April 20, with a total of 92 pieces hung in the first-floor meeting room and the new second-floor gallery area. The Teller family gave the museum a $5,000 donation that had its beginnings as the "Grif Teller Memorial Art Fund" -- a fund that started when admirers began spontaneously sending contributions to the family after Teller died in April 1993 at age 93. The pieces in the exhibition represent a cross-section of original PRR calendar art; preliminary sketches; PRR and other railroad art that was commissioned by historians and buffs after Teller's retirement; and some of Teller's non-railroad art. The original oil paintings for the PRR calendars for the years 1928 (When the Broad Way Meets the Dawn, K4 in Juniata Valley), 1931 (Giant Conquerors of Space and Time, K4 with airplane), 1932 ("On Time!", K4 in snowstorm), 1934 (The New Day, P5a between New York & Phila.), 1936 (Speed-Safety-Comfort, GG1 south of Philadelphia), and 1953 (Crossroads of Commerce, E8s and freight Sharks at Steubenville/Weirton bridge). One corner of the gallery area is set up to represent Teller's studio in his Little Falls, N.J., home, complete with original furnishings--the palette and tubes of pigment, tables, shelf, studio stool, sketch pad, and studio couch. An unfinished rural landscape is on the easel--it was under way at the time he died. If you go, take note of that easel. It is the same one that he used at the Osborne Company, his employer, to create all of the 27 calendar scenes he painted for PRR -- 1928 through 1942 and 1947 through 1958. Actually, Osborne went out of business about 1953 and Teller took the easel home, finishing the last several calendar scenes as a freelancer, working directly with the PRR as his client instead of as staff artist for Osborne, which had held the PRR calendar account. It is also the same easel on which he created all of the new-generation PRR art 1974-1992. The biggest news to come out of the event was historian Ken Murry's donation of the signature original oil painting "On Time!" to the museum. It is easily the most popular and recognizable of all of Teller's paintings, and he (Teller) said it was his favorite and the one of which he was most proud. Murry acquired it quietly about a year ago from its former owner, a New Jersey woman whose husband had been in the shipping business and who had obtained it from the PRR years ago. Ken decided that the opening of this exhibition was an apt time at which to donate it to the museum. Among the new-generation railroad scenes that are in display are: -- PRR Car 120 on an Amtrak train in the Corridor (this was the 1974 painting that inaugurated Teller's second PRR painting career)(museum owns) -- John Bull replica (museum owns) -- Second-generation PRR SD-class EMD diesels at Duncannon (Chet & Joyce Fuhrman) -- Car 120 passing a K4 on the Bald Eagle Branch (Bennett Levin) -- J1 on Horseshoe Curve (Ken Murry) -- Pride of the Pennsy, the K4 scene at Horseshoe Curve that was used onthe 1980 commemorative Teller calendar (Ken Murry) -- T1 at Harrisburg (Ken Murry) -- Two other T1 scenes, no distinct locale (Russ Shurtleff, Paul Withers) -- M1 at Tyrone (Vern Simpson) -- M1 at Chickies Rock (Barbara and Gregg Overmeyer) -- M1 at Jacks Tower (Ken Murry) -- GG1 at Trenton bridge over Delaware (cover of "The Remarkable GG1" book)(Ken Murry) -- GG1 at Princeton Junction -- Broadway Ltd observation car at Newark station (Shirley & Dan Cupper) -- UP Big Boy at Weber Canyon (Robert Teller) -- NYC Hudson (Ken Murry) All three of Teller's children were in attendance for Friday's opening, John from Maine, Robert from Westfield, N.J., and Ruth Teller Bragg from Skaneateles, N.Y. Many grandchildren, from as far away as Indiana and Ohio, and great-grandchildren, were there as well. Jim Alexander, a Friends of the Railroad Museum member who keeps the museum's website updated, was shooting photos with the idea of placing them on the site soon. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 22:00:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Dams along the PRR On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, Dr. Edmond L. Freed wrote: > > There were two dams south of Harrisburg. Conowingo Dam (10 miles above > Perryville at Rt. 1) and Safe Harbor Dam (32 miles above Perryville) The > A & S double bridges are just above the dam. > Safe Harbor dam provided electricity for this portion of the PRR. Ed, Ya missed one! The is a dam located at Holtwood, roughly halfway between Conowingo and Safe Harbor. It was at this site that a coal fired station was also built (demoed laast year) to provide additional power during low water periods. This station burned the river bottom coal dredged from the Holtwood and Safe Harbor impoundments. I am pretty sure that this is the location of the "captive" narrow gauge steamer and the narrow gauge track, as I have seen lots of evidence of this track in photos of Holtwood, but not Safe Harbor. I have a couple of neat arial photos of Holtwood circa 1953 that show quite a maze of track! Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lmatt" Subject: Re: [PRR] Dams along the PRR Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 23:29:29 -0400 NOPE! The narrow gage was at Safe Harbor, right at the dam. All the trackage at Holtwood was standard gage. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F Smith" To: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Cc: Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 11:00 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Dams along the PRR > On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, Dr. Edmond L. Freed wrote: > > > > There were two dams south of Harrisburg. Conowingo Dam (10 miles above > > Perryville at Rt. 1) and Safe Harbor Dam (32 miles above Perryville) The > > A & S double bridges are just above the dam. > > Safe Harbor dam provided electricity for this portion of the PRR. > > Ed, > Ya missed one! The is a dam located at Holtwood, roughly halfway between > Conowingo and Safe Harbor. It was at this site that a coal fired station > was also built (demoed laast year) to provide additional power during low > water periods. This station burned the river bottom coal dredged from the > Holtwood and Safe Harbor impoundments. I am pretty sure that this is the > location of the "captive" narrow gauge steamer and the narrow gauge track, > as I have seen lots of evidence of this track in photos of Holtwood, but > not Safe Harbor. I have a couple of neat arial photos of Holtwood circa > 1953 that show quite a maze of track! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Viv Brice" Subject: [PRR] Northbound Coal Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 13:44:12 +1000 Its funny how a subject like this can open your own eyes to the same sort of thing! While browsing Don Ball's book, the Pennsy in the 40s & 50s, I took a closer look at the double spread of Altoona on pages 134 & 135. While not necessarily Northbound, of the 10 identifiable hoppers full of coal in the foreground, only 5 are Pennsy - the others are 1 Berwind coal (almost Pennsy!), 1 Reading, 1 Western Maryland, 1 New York Central (!!) and 1 other that I cannot quite make out but again definitely not Pennsy (possibly NYC). The next page, 137, still at Altoona, shows only two hoppers (empty) but one each from the South Buffalo and the Delaware & Hudson. Obviously hoppers move around a lot more than I thought. Perhaps I shouldn't be so hasty in removing non-PRR hoppers from my layout!! Viv Brice, another SPF from down under PRRT&HS member 6781 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 05:21:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Cheech Subject: [PRR] Buffalo Division Hello from Otto,N.Y. I,m Rich Bray, I signed up a week ago, sent two messages, but had the address wrong. I'm hoping I've got it rite! I've been an avid Pennsy fan since '92 when my brother(reciently retired Coasty) arranged a cab ride from Conway to Harrisburg. I was hooked big time! Been enmassing books on the Pennsy, doing lots of research, joined the PRRT&HS I believe my # is 6696, I model in N-Scale my original way to ambitious plan was to model from Galitzen to Altoona, as I did more research I found that the Pennsy had a line from Olean,N.Y. to Ebenezer(W.Senca) N.Y. close to where I live, and alot easier to check out personally. I'm an avid steam fan, I've worked in a boiler house for 23 years, our plant was recintly up-dated to nat. gas & oil from coal, luckly I was able to save a couple of steam engines and other stuff, back to the topic of the Buffalo Division any info. on this line would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Rich Bray (Cheech) railroadbuff@yahoo.com P.S. I can't spell to save my butt!! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] trains.com poll Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 11:06:38 -0400 Lists: Some one who likes the Southern Railway has discovered how to vote over and over, it is now ahead of the PRR! Geuse it's time to vote early and often! Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KLJURY@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 11:24:02 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Grif Teller art exhibition opens at Strasburg (long) I was at Strasburg Yesterday & saw this impressive exhibit. Just standing there looking at these massive paintings is a thrill...they really bring out the spirit of what was (and still is) the might Pennsy! Thanks for putting this on the web, Dan. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 14:35:24 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Grif Teller art exhibition opens at Strasburg Greetings to Kerry, Jerry, and the List: KLJURY@aol.com wrote: > > I was at Strasburg yesterday & saw this impressive exhibit. Just standing > there looking at these massive paintings is a thrill...they really bring > out the spirit of what was (and still is) the mighty Pennsy! Kerry touches on something I neglected to mention in my initial report. You may think you know the images from having seen them printed in books and magazines, the Keystone, the calendars, and so on. I know that I thought this way. But they are very different when viewed in person, much more engaging and compelling. Why? Because they are so big. Most of the second-generation paintings are big enough, 24x36 or 28x40 inches or so, but several of the original calendar scenes from the 30s are truly huge -- When the Broad Way Meets the Dawn is fully 40x60 inches. Sixty inches is five feet! If you can possibly see this exhibition, do make the effort. You'll be glad you did. Offhand, I'd say to allow at least 90 minutes just for the exhibition, not counting any time spent in the rest of the museum. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 16:35:41 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] Dams along the PRR Bruce F Smith wrote: > On Sat, 21 Apr 2001, Dr. Edmond L. Freed wrote: > > > > There were two dams south of Harrisburg. Conowingo Dam (10 miles above > > Perryville at Rt. 1) and Safe Harbor Dam (32 miles above Perryville) The > > A & S double bridges are just above the dam. > > Safe Harbor dam provided electricity for this portion of the PRR. > > Ed, > Ya missed one! The is a dam located at Holtwood, roughly halfway between > Conowingo and Safe Harbor. It was at this site that a coal fired station > was also built (demoed laast year) to provide additional power during low > water periods. This station burned the river bottom coal dredged from the > Holtwood and Safe Harbor impoundments. I am pretty sure that this is the > location of the "captive" narrow gauge steamer and the narrow gauge track, > as I have seen lots of evidence of this track in photos of Holtwood, but > not Safe Harbor. I have a couple of neat arial photos of Holtwood circa > 1953 that show quite a maze of track! > > Happy Rails > Bruce Bruce, You are correct. I thought that Holtwood was only a coal fired station and not a full dam. Some quick research proved me wrong. Thanx, Eddie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 18:47:02 +0000 From: knmeyer Subject: Re: [PRR] Home road hoppers/solid blocks of one road Gregg, You've mentioned that you worked in Baltimore in the 60s for the PRR. During the 70s I'd hang out at North Avenue tower on the B&O and I remember a block operator telling me how the B&O would pull coal trains from the PRR interchange at Mt. Vernon (Baltimore) and return the empties at Havre de Grace onto the Columbia and Port Deposit branch. Any thought on that? Ken Meyer Bel Air, Maryland Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > Rick & List:- > > Actually in Erie Western days, the L&N hoppers were received from the L&N at > Wilders, IN, where the old Monon crossed the Erie, but was told by the Amish > coal dealer that when it was PRR and PC service was better because the cars > came up from Cincinnati. > > Coal trains, when they were run as solid coal trains, tended to be single > line hoppers, which would be utility coal. But don't forget met coal and > commercial heating coal, which well might be a "dog's breakfast" in a > merchandise train. Since lake coal was a mix of utility and metallurgical > coal, there were trains with blocks of different roads' cars in the same > train. > > Coal was not my assignment in PRR traffic, but worked in the same office > with coal people in Cleveland and Baltimore. > > Gregg Mahlkov (Decatur did have a handsome PRR station didn't it?) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: ; > Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 9:30 PM > Subject: [PRR] Home road hoppers/solid blocks of one road > > > In a message dated 4/20/01 7:35:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > > > << When I was with the Erie Western, we got Kentucky coal off the L&N at > > Berne, > > IN, which was on the former PRR (GR&I) line in L&N hoppers. Since coal is > a > > hundred commodities, not one as the railroad views it, no railroad even > the > > mighty PRR could source every type of coal from mines on its line. > > > > Gregg Mahlkov > > >> > > > > Gregg, > > > > Berne was on the GR&I, all right, but I would have anticipated the Erie > > Western's interchange to be a couple of stations north at Decatur IN. > IIRC, > > Decatur (first major town south of Adams Tower on the GR&I) was the home > in > > 1982 not only of a PRR brick station in surprisingly good shape, but an > Erie > > tower that appeared to be still in Erie paint. Still, it's been a long > time. > > > > As for L&N coal, as we established a year or two ago on PRR-Talk, the > > Panhandle rails interlined L&N, N&W, even C&O coal to many northern > points, > > notably lake coal via Columbus (or Cincinnnati and Columbus), and Chicago > > coal via both Cincinnati and Louisville. We noted that trains of C&O cars > > might sometimes be visible on both the C&O Toledo and PRR Sandusky lines > out > > of Columbus that paralleled each other through Marion Ohio. > > > > But a lot of evidence did/still does point to the idea that a train (other > > than its PRR engine and cabin) tended to be one road's hoppers, not the > > doggie-breakfasts that many modelers seem to like. Biggest mix I've seen > was > > N&W trains after 1964, made up of hoppers from N&W, Virginian, NKP, and > > perhaps W&LE and WAB. Of course, those were all "home road" cars on the > > Norfolk & Western. > > > > Having said all that, we here in Louisville are trying to figure out what > one > > D&H hopper was doing down here at PRR's coaling crane, 14th Street > > Roundhouse, on a day when the late Jack Fravert shot late steam there. > > Delivering coal for engines, obviously. > > > > Til the next train out, > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > > Modeling the Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. > 1968 > > (HO) > > Operating the Panhandle Route > > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Home road hoppers/solid blocks of one road Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 19:55:21 -0400 Ken:- The loaded coal train would have to move over the route agreed to between PRR and B&O when the rate was published and filed with the ICC, but the empties could be returned anywhere by agreement and both probably preferred keeping them out of Baltimore. Saying Baltimore was not the easiest city to railroad in is a gross understatement. Didn't BG&E have a power plant up the bay from Sparrow's Point? Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "knmeyer" To: "Gregg Mahlkov" Cc: ; ; Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Home road hoppers/solid blocks of one road > Gregg, > You've mentioned that you worked in Baltimore in the 60s for the PRR. > During the 70s I'd hang out at North Avenue tower on the B&O and I > remember a block operator telling me how the B&O would pull coal trains > from the PRR interchange at Mt. Vernon (Baltimore) and return the > empties at Havre de Grace onto the Columbia and Port Deposit branch. Any > thought on that? > Ken Meyer > Bel Air, Maryland > > Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > > > Rick & List:- > > > > Actually in Erie Western days, the L&N hoppers were received from the L&N at > > Wilders, IN, where the old Monon crossed the Erie, but was told by the Amish > > coal dealer that when it was PRR and PC service was better because the cars > > came up from Cincinnati. > > > > Coal trains, when they were run as solid coal trains, tended to be single > > line hoppers, which would be utility coal. But don't forget met coal and > > commercial heating coal, which well might be a "dog's breakfast" in a > > merchandise train. Since lake coal was a mix of utility and metallurgical > > coal, there were trains with blocks of different roads' cars in the same > > train. > > > > Coal was not my assignment in PRR traffic, but worked in the same office > > with coal people in Cleveland and Baltimore. > > > > Gregg Mahlkov (Decatur did have a handsome PRR station didn't it?) > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: > > To: ; > > Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2001 9:30 PM > > Subject: [PRR] Home road hoppers/solid blocks of one road > > > > > In a message dated 4/20/01 7:35:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > PRR-Talk@dsop.com writes: > > > > > > << When I was with the Erie Western, we got Kentucky coal off the L&N at > > > Berne, > > > IN, which was on the former PRR (GR&I) line in L&N hoppers. Since coal is > > a > > > hundred commodities, not one as the railroad views it, no railroad even > > the > > > mighty PRR could source every type of coal from mines on its line. > > > > > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > >> > > > > > > Gregg, > > > > > > Berne was on the GR&I, all right, but I would have anticipated the Erie > > > Western's interchange to be a couple of stations north at Decatur IN. > > IIRC, > > > Decatur (first major town south of Adams Tower on the GR&I) was the home > > in > > > 1982 not only of a PRR brick station in surprisingly good shape, but an > > Erie > > > tower that appeared to be still in Erie paint. Still, it's been a long > > time. > > > > > > As for L&N coal, as we established a year or two ago on PRR-Talk, the > > > Panhandle rails interlined L&N, N&W, even C&O coal to many northern > > points, > > > notably lake coal via Columbus (or Cincinnnati and Columbus), and Chicago > > > coal via both Cincinnati and Louisville. We noted that trains of C&O cars > > > might sometimes be visible on both the C&O Toledo and PRR Sandusky lines > > out > > > of Columbus that paralleled each other through Marion Ohio. > > > > > > But a lot of evidence did/still does point to the idea that a train (other > > > than its PRR engine and cabin) tended to be one road's hoppers, not the > > > doggie-breakfasts that many modelers seem to like. Biggest mix I've seen > > was > > > N&W trains after 1964, made up of hoppers from N&W, Virginian, NKP, and > > > perhaps W&LE and WAB. Of course, those were all "home road" cars on the > > > Norfolk & Western. > > > > > > Having said all that, we here in Louisville are trying to figure out what > > one > > > D&H hopper was doing down here at PRR's coaling crane, 14th Street > > > Roundhouse, on a day when the late Jack Fravert shot late steam there. > > > Delivering coal for engines, obviously. > > > > > > Til the next train out, > > > Rick Tipton - Louisville KY > > > Modeling the Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. > > 1968 > > > (HO) > > > Operating the Panhandle Route > > > And Remembering PRR Lines West > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: [PRR] Safe Harbor critter: Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 23:27:10 -0400 My brother caught this critter @ Safe Harbor on one of his fishing trips. He was kind enough to take this for his little brother  me. http://www.wsbcos.com/pplsafeh.jpg Cos Cos Communications, Inc. Home Page Rail Road Pages ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 23:30:30 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ORER Car summary was part of Northbound coal In a message dated 4/21/2001 7:19:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time, SUVCWORR@aol.com writes: >I just check the April 1952 ORER. There are several types of cars not > summarized other than open top hoppers. There is no summary of gons, > flat cars less than 50 feet in length unless specially equipped or for heavy > capacity. > > So is it a question of why excluded or why included? >> > Could the excluded ones be considered totally general purpose and interchangeable as to lading? Note they are types not specially equipped and apparently not cleaned between loads (anyone ever hear of open top hoppers or gons being cleaned?) Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 23:35:43 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Safe Harbor critter: Greetings to Wayne and the List: The railroad at Williams Grove Park near Grantham, Pa., (known for PRR 0-6-0 643, the only currently operable PRR steam engine) obtained a Safe Harbor critter not long ago and this may be it. The loco I saw there was considerably cleaned up and painted. Dan Cupper Wayne S. Betty wrote: > > My brother caught this critter @ Safe Harbor on one of his fishing trips. > He was kind enough to take this for his little brother  me. > http://www.wsbcos.com/pplsafeh.jpg > > Cos > > Cos Communications, Inc. > Home Page > Rail Road Pages > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 10:19:35 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] Re: ORER Car summary was part of Northbound coal Rich, The cars summarized vary from RR to RR. Each RR apparently was free to summarize what they wished. I wonder what the criteria was. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== SUVCWORR@aol.com wrote: > > Andy: > > I just check the April 1952 ORER. There are several types of cars not > summarized other than open top hoppers. There is no summary of gons, flat > cars less than 50 feet in length unless specially equipped or for heavy > capacity. > > So is it a question of why excluded or why included? > > Rich Orr -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 10:46:10 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Colour postcard .... comments invited. "John H. Wright" wrote: (in part) . . . > Here's my question .......... the locomotives in the picture have been > coloured Dark Blue. Is this a flight of fancy of the artist or did Lines > West locos carry this livery c. 1920? Though I cannot recall any mention of > blue anywhere in the Pennsy scheme of things, however. -- As I recall, that was also the color of Superman's hair! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 10:14:37 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Northbound Coal Viv Brice writes: >The next page, 137, still at Altoona, shows only two hoppers (empty) but one >each from the South Buffalo and the Delaware & Hudson. Obviously hoppers >move around a lot more than I thought. Perhaps I shouldn't be so hasty in >removing non-PRR hoppers from my layout!! G'day Viv, You've noted two shoits I like to use as evidence ! You'll also note that this means that these cars were NOT moving in solid trains of D&H or South Buffalo cars, but rather were in trains with a number of roads mixed together. That's not to say that you WOULDN'T see solid trains/blocks of PRR or off road cars, but that you don't HAVE to. Whether these cars move in solid or mixed blocks may depend tremendously on the final destination and the type/grade of coal being carried and that should figure into your train makeup. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:59:55 EDT Subject: [PRR] ORER Car summary In a message dated 4/23/01 10:19:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: <> I believe that Pennsy was the only RR that listed its' own road classes in the listings, it is possible that the Railroads paid for the listings - and so had a say in how they were put together and/or summarized Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:40:58 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] ORER Car summary I've made the same observation. No other RR enumerated its cars with an indication of its own class. Perhaps it's because the PRR, with its enormous fleet, had its car numbers frequently scattered all over the place, just like its steam engine numbers. That made it difficult to relate a particular block of numbers to a class of freight car. What ever the reason, its a Godsend to modelers. I don't know how SF or NYC or UP or any other prototype modeler goes about selecting a number for a model they have just built, or determining if the number provided by a kit manufacturer is correct. Yes they can tell from the ORER that car number 123456 is a "40 ft box car with a 7 door door and a 10-6 ht", but that could be one of several classes on a particular RR. The features of such great concern to prototype modelers are among those not identified in the ORER. Only the PRR provided this data! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== VVA249@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 4/23/01 10:19:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > asmiller@mitre.org writes: > > <> > > I believe that Pennsy was the only RR that listed its' own road classes in > the listings, it is possible that the Railroads paid for the listings - and > so had a say in how they were put together and/or summarized > Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] ORER Car summary Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:42:41 -0400 List: The railroads did indeed pay, and pay handsomely, to list in the "ORER". The lists and dimensions of cars were in a format required by the ICC, but the description, which is where PRR and successors put car class, was of an editorial nature so the railroad could put any additional information beyond "boxcar", "gondola", etc. that they wanted to. You will find "steel underframe" "steel sheathed" "heater equipped" and similar descriptions throughout the ORER. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 12:59 PM Subject: [PRR] ORER Car summary > In a message dated 4/23/01 10:19:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > asmiller@mitre.org writes: > > <> > > I believe that Pennsy was the only RR that listed its' own road classes in > the listings, it is possible that the Railroads paid for the listings - and > so had a say in how they were put together and/or summarized > Dick Ross > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:00:01 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Coal on PRR Greetings to Bruce and the List: This discussion reminds me of a Don Wood photo showing an eastbound coal train pulled by an M1 at Cove, Pa., just east of Duncannon, with an NYC hopper first out, followed by three more foreign-road cars, two of them Erie offsets with the huge diamond logo. (p. 215, Pennsy Power). One thing to keep in mind is that the market for coal was far different in 1940 or 1950 than it is today. Today we're accustomed to seeing 100-plus-car unit trains that originate at one point, say, Bailey Mine on the Monongahela Railway, heading for one destination, say PPL's Strawberry Ridge electric generating station. But unit trains on PRR did not come into existence until 1963. Back in the mists of time -- just check your CT1000 -- hundreds of small towns had coal dealers to meet the demand for home heating fuel. Each dealer was likely to order and receive coal one hopper car at a time, or at best a few at a time. They bought from the coal company or possibly a broker, either of whom (not the PRR) would determine the source, so I'd guess that this could account for some of the variation. The rise of commercial gas, electric, and fuel-oil heating systems for home and office -- partially aided by the unreliability of supply occasioned by miners' strikes, plus steep inflation in the price of coal after WWII -- devastated the market for home-furnace coal. That's why the record amounts of coal moving on the railroads today may still end up heating your home--but in the form of kilowatts, not direct BTUs. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:51:17 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] CT1000 bibliography and some questions It's been a while since I've put out a revision, mainly because I've gotten no new information. As things stand now, it looks like the following are true or at least reasonable: PRR printed form CR76, roughly the same thing as CT1000 during the latter part of the 19th century. Data are spotty, the earliest known is dated 1878. It isn't certain, but it seems likely they were printed annually. Questions: Does anyone know of any CR76 earlier than 1878, or for 1880, 1881, 1883, 4, 5, 6, or 1889, 1890, or 1892, 3, 4, or 1896, 7, 8, or 9? The later years may be CT1000 rather than CR76. Sometime after 1895, and before 1900, the form number changed from CR76 to CT1000. They came out annually (except we've not heard of a 1904 CT1000) until at least 1907. The next one we've heard of is 1911, and somewhere in that gap they changed from yearly to every other year. Questions: Does anyone know of a CT1000 dated 1908, 9, or 10? The next few were 1915, 1918, 1923, and 1945; and that was the last (except for a packet of change pages sometime after 1945). The 1923 CT1000 appears to have been the first which included Lines West information. It superceded form PL506 of 1913 (I think it was 506, I'm sure it was 1913). In addition to books covering the whole railroad, smaller books were printed. The 1945 CT1000 appears to have had 3 "subsets", for Eastern, Central and Western regions. These differ from the full CT1000 in that the "big one" is printed 2 columns per page, the E, C, W books one column per page. Question: Has anyone actually seen a 1945 CT1000W? In 1923 there were CT1000C and E subsets. I suspect that since there were then 4 regions, the Lines West were covered by CT1000N and S, for Northwestern and Southwestern, but I've never seen any. Nor have I seen a 1923 CT1000W. Questions: Has anyone seen a 1923 subset CT1000 for anything west of Pittsburgh? What is the form number? As noted above, "the whole railroad" didn't include Lines West prior to 1923. There were subsets, but it looks as if they each covered a single grand division. That's based on just two examples, so beware. The 1900 CT1000 is about the size of a thick ETT, about 3/4 inch thick. Given that that covered everything there was, what reason would there be to print a variety of smaller books? I'm guessing that the "per region" or "per division" CT1000's didn't come out until the big book got too big to fit in a pocket, sometime after 1900. Questions: Does anyone have or know of form CT1000x or form CR76x, where x is some letter, and where the contents cover only a division, grand division, or region? (Other than the 1945 E and C and the 1923 E and C, I mean,) And that's where it rests, pending further input. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:54:11 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] CT1000 bibliography, oops I neglected to mention that the very earliest known books were Form 76 C. R. Then came CR76, followed by CT1000. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:20:39 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Coal, home-road cars, changes as time passes I think I first read the saying that hopper cars tend to stay on the home road something like 50 years ago, perhaps in Railroad Magazine, perhaps Model Railroader. It may not have been true then. Many rules of thumb start out as reasonably accurate statements, but live on long after things have changed in ways that make the RoT untrue. Someone (Gregg?) pointed out that coal is not a one-size-fits-all commodity. I suggest that a long time ago, perhaps in the 2nd quarter of the 19th century, it was thought to be so. There was antracite, gas coal, steam coal, and coking coal, and that was about it. The main question was "how much will it cost?" and transportation was a part of the cost. Probably the cheapest coal was the nearest coal, and perhaps most hopper cars "stayed home" because who would go a mile further than he needed to just to get coal? Time passed, the combustion engineers, the metallurgists, the coke plant operators got better at what they did, discovered that coal came in greater variety than their fathers had supposed. Maybe spending a few pennies would save a few dimes in plant operating costs, and going farther afield to get the right coal was worth it. With that, hopper cars began to travel farther, and even a large railroad like PRR found that on-line shippers of coal were shipping off-line, and on-line consumers were getting coal from off-line. And that was the end of "hoppers cars stay on the home road". Just a thought, but one in which I have faith, however poorly I may have expressed it. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 16:20:53 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ORER Car summary In a message dated 4/23/2001 10:43:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << What ever the reason, its a Godsend to modelers. I don't know how SF or NYC or UP or any other prototype modeler goes about selecting a number for a model they have just built, or determining if the number provided by a kit manufacturer is correct. Yes they can tell from the ORER that car number 123456 is a "40 ft box car with a 7 door door and a 10-6 ht", but that could be one of several classes on a particular RR. The features of such great concern to prototype modelers are among those not identified in the ORER. Only the PRR provided this data! >> Just that much more evidence the the PRR was indeed THE thinking man's railroad . . . the champagne of prototypes. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:28:29 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Safe Harbor critter: Lew said: >NOPE! The narrow gauge was at Safe Harbor, right at the dam. All the >trackage at Holtwood was standard gauge. Cos said: >My brother caught this critter @ Safe Harbor on one of his fishing trips. >He was kind enough to take this for his little brother  me. >http://www.wsbcos.com/pplsafeh.jpg Okay, so I'm willing to concede that this critter looks narrow gauge and came from Safe Harbor...but I'm still puzzled as to where the track was. As near as I can figure, the track in question must be on the base or lip of the dam, as the siding to the generator house and to the wall above (where the steamer is seen parked in "Trackside...") was standard gauge and connected to the real world. As for narrow gauge at Holtwood...it was probably long gone when Lew was hitching rides on the cooker there , but I've seen photos that distinctly show narrow gauge tracks in the area around the Holtwood plant, circa 1930, and someone noted that there was dual gauge track at Holtwood at one time, long ago...As I noted, in my 1950s arial views, there is a real maze of tracks around Holtwood, to the point that I wonder why there were so many tracks, especially on the south side, which was on the opposite side from the coal operation. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lmatt" Subject: Re: [PRR] Safe Harbor critter: Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 17:31:39 -0400 Bruce: I will have to go back to safe harbor and take a look. I can't remember the exact position of the NG tracks without some visual reference. They did go into the dam building, though. There were several large doors with trackage entering a storage warehouse area. They hauled stainless steel welding rods around on little flat cars for one thing, I do remember that. The NG tracks did go out towards the standard gage for a distance. I got to ride on a critter several times around 1956 to 1959. The JPG of the critter looks a lot bigger than I remember, but there were several. The tank steamer was on its own track, way on the North side, with no connection to anything else, left by the contractor. Lew Matt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." To: Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Safe Harbor critter: > Lew said: > >NOPE! The narrow gauge was at Safe Harbor, right at the dam. All the > >trackage at Holtwood was standard gauge. > > Cos said: > >My brother caught this critter @ Safe Harbor on one of his fishing trips. > >He was kind enough to take this for his little brother  me. > >http://www.wsbcos.com/pplsafeh.jpg > > Okay, so I'm willing to concede that this critter looks narrow gauge and > came from Safe Harbor...but I'm still puzzled as to where the track was. > As near as I can figure, the track in question must be on the base or lip > of the dam, as the siding to the generator house and to the wall above > (where the steamer is seen parked in "Trackside...") was standard gauge and > connected to the real world. > > As for narrow gauge at Holtwood...it was probably long gone when Lew was > hitching rides on the cooker there , but I've seen photos that > distinctly show narrow gauge tracks in the area around the Holtwood plant, > circa 1930, and someone noted that there was dual gauge track at Holtwood > at one time, long ago...As I noted, in my 1950s arial views, there is a > real maze of tracks around Holtwood, to the point that I wonder why there > were so many tracks, especially on the south side, which was on the > opposite side from the coal operation. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] trains.com survey Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:10:09 -0400 Lists:- Uncle Pete has pulled ahead of the Standard Railroad of the World again. Must be those darned Big Boys! Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:06:12 EDT Subject: [PRR] ORER - fun with numbers! In a message dated 4/23/01 1:38:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: << The railroads did indeed pay, and pay handsomely, to list in the "ORER". >> THAT would probably explain why "Pennsy" put in its' own class numbers - nuances such as the roof lines of say an X-29 vs an X-31 could be explained with an "in house" listing cheaper and easier than in the ORER. While on the subject of freight car lists, I've said this before. For those of you who have a copy, notice how the freight cars were numbered as, basically, 2 separate companies quite late in the game - like the locomotives above and below # 5000. (Freight cars divided at 500,000.) If you have an ORER notice how, for the most part, box cars got 5 digit numbers, with some rolling over into the low 100,000 range - with Stock cars at the end; repeating from 501,000 & up. In my 1953 book Hoppers started at 135500 to 267000 repeating from 675000 to 75000. Gondolas were next, with older classes first, mostly in the 300000 and 750000 to 900000, followed by flats; MOW equipment and "Cabins" (later 2 not in the ORER as they were not for lading - or interchange). Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Prr1187@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 18:56:36 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] CT1000 bibliography and some questions Bob, I have the 1923 CT1000 C and it covers the Central Region which goes West of Pittsburgh. On the Eastern (Ohio) Div. (Fort Wayne Line), it goes west to milepost 172.8 beyond Lucas, OH. On the Panhandle Div, it covers to Columbus, OH. It also includes the: Wheeling Div. Marietta Div. Erie & Ashtabula Div. Akron Div. Cleveland & Pittsburgh Div. Regards, Dennis Sautters, PRRT&HS #1974 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:09:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com survey In regards to Uncle Pete. . . remember: " You Can't Spell Stupid Without UP" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 19:52:14 -0400 From: "R. Vogel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Safe Harbor critter Cos, Approximately what year was this photo taken? -Bob Vogel > Wayne S. Betty wrote: > > > > My brother caught this critter @ Safe Harbor on one of his fishing trips. > > He was kind enough to take this for his little brother  me. > > http://www.wsbcos.com/pplsafeh.jpg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] Safe Harbor critter Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 20:50:26 -0400 I'm guessing the mid 70's - I'll have to ask my bother if he remembers when and if he took any others while there Cos Subject: Re: [PRR] Safe Harbor critter Cos, Approximately what year was this photo taken? -Bob Vogel > Wayne S. Betty wrote: > > > > My brother caught this critter @ Safe Harbor on one of his fishing trips. > > He was kind enough to take this for his little brother  me. > > http://www.wsbcos.com/pplsafeh.jpg ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 21:47:21 -0400 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Builders Photos Hi All, In building my PRR Builders photo collection, I have bought and borrowed many photos that have the remnants of a liquid contact type of cement on the back of them. Also, some have had specks of some kind of dirt that usually picks off easily on the faces of the photos. I can only guess they were in some kind of shop environment. I was hoping a former employee might shed some light on how and where the Builders photos were used. Thanks Bill "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] Builders Photos Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 21:47:21 -0400 Hi All, In building my PRR Builders photo collection, I have bought and borrowed many photos that have the remnants of a liquid contact type of cement on the back of them. Also, some have had specks of some kind of dirt that usually picks off easily on the faces of the photos. I can only guess they were in some kind of shop environment. I was hoping a former employee might shed some light on how and where the Builders photos were used. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:26:56 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Northbound Coal On the subject of foriegn hoppers. In the mid to late 60's it was fairly common to see NKP, P&WV, EJ&E, C&EI, NYC, P&S, C&O and B&O hoppers heading east loaded with bituminous coal through Harrisburg and west empty or loaded with coke. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:31:20 EDT Subject: [PRR] Susquehanna Will be traveling back to Harrisburg this July. Plan to get off I-80 then follow the river down. Which side is the best for observing the rail lines. Do they still run along both sides of the river? Is the PRR station at Duncannon still standing? Many thanks in advance! Evan Leisey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 00:28:25 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Susquehanna Greetings to Evan and the List: The answer depends on whether you're getting off I-80 from east or west. If you're coming from the west, you'll actually see more if you get exit I-80 at Milesburg and make your way down over the mountains through Bellefonte via Routes 220-144-322 to Lewistown, from which point you gain access to a great mainline show in the form of the ex-Middle Division. You have to drive over to it at various points (it's not right next to 22-322; good access from Route 333, though), but there's plenty of action. Worth the look at places like Lewistown Jucntion, Lewistown Narrows, Mifflin, Port Royal, Tuscarora, Thompsontown, Millerstown, Newport, etc. All depends on how much time you have to spend. If in fact you're driving straight south from I-80, the fastest route is the new & improved 11-15, but you won't see anything until Duncannon unless you catch a glimpse of the Buffalo Line across the Susquehanna. If, on the other hand, you drive south on Route 147 from Sunbury, there is a lot of weaving in & out among the hills but also some places where the road is just 10 feet from the edge of the ballast on the Buffalo Line. Fewer trains, yes, but over along 11-15 there are NO trains until you get to Duncannon. >From Duncannon south, the best route from which to see action is still 11-15 through Cove, Perdix, Marysville, Enola, etc. Yes the Duncannon station is still standing, as is the Marysville station. Both are in pretty good shape in secondary office/retail uses. Newport station is also still standing but isn't in as good of a shape as the others. Dan Cupper --------------------------- RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > > Will be traveling back to Harrisburg this July. Plan to get off I-80 then > follow the river down. Which side is the best for observing the rail lines. > Do they still run along both sides of the river? Is the PRR station at > Duncannon still standing? > > Many thanks in advance! > > Evan Leisey > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 07:23:22 -0400 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Susquehanna If you take 80 to the Susquehanna the real railroad is on the east side through Northumberland, Sunbury etc. I would suggest you get off at Milesburg, snnop around Bellefornte and head south to Lewistown check out the Society's Station restoration. You then follow 322 to 11/15 to Duncannon and Enola. The PRR is viiable for good stretches in the narrows, at Millerstown, Newport, View,Cove, Banks, and Enola. You can get off 322 to get closer many places. There is a great highway rest stop at Newport, and one at the diner in Cove. When leaving Lewistown you can take to road on the south side either 313, 0r 333 to Mifflintown. It runs right through the Denholm Complex. Much more traffic than on the Buffalo line and if you stay on 322 from Potter's Mills it is probably faster depending on how many times you stop to "foam". RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > > Will be traveling back to Harrisburg this July. Plan to get off I-80 then > follow the river down. Which side is the best for observing the rail lines. > Do they still run along both sides of the river? Is the PRR station at > Duncannon still standing? > > Many thanks in advance! > > Evan Leisey > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 09:23:02 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] trains.com survey You don't suppose they are cheating faster than we are? Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > Lists:- > > Uncle Pete has pulled ahead of the Standard Railroad of the World again. > Must be those darned Big Boys! > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] ENOLA (kinda Long) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:57:54 -0400 Listers, >From an NS e-mail: HARRISBURG, PA - Norfolk Southern Corporation (NYSE: NSC) today announced plans to quadruple the switching capacity of Enola Yard, near Harrisburg. The project enables Norfolk Southern to streamline routings between certain origins and destinations, while enhancing the quality of service Norfolk Southern offers. Work will begin immediately and take approximately two months to complete. Norfolk Southern estimates that 15 new jobs will be created as a result of the project. "This project symbolizes Norfolk Southern's aggressive pursuit of freight business moving between the Northeast and the South and further solidifies Harrisburg's position as a major freight hub for the Mid- Atlantic," said David Brown, general manager of Norfolk Southern's Northern Region, with headquarters in Harrisburg. "Shippers should realize immediate benefits from the capacity increase at Enola, including improved transit times and equipment utilization." Currently, Enola Yard is able to sort 125 rail cars daily. Following completion of the project, the yard will process 600 rail cars daily. The project involves rehabilitating nearly 28 miles of track and replacing 10 miles of railroad ties. The project cost of $1.9 million is included in Norfolk Southern's 2001 capital improvement program. Enola Yard was built in 1905 by the Pennsylvania Railroad, a Conrail predecessor, and at one point was the largest rail freight classification yard in the U.S. Traffic through the yard reached its peak in the 1940s. Enola's role as a major railroad classification facility ended in 1993, when Conrail ceased hump operations. Since then, Enola has been used for switching railroad cars for customers in the Harrisburg, Lancaster and York areas, and for storage. Since acquiring its portion of Conrail in 1999, Norfolk Southern has committed more than $340 million to projects throughout the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, including approximately $47 million in the Harrisburg area. Looks like after Conrail's downsizing NS is bringing it back to its PRR glory. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:06:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] ENOLA (kinda Long) From: Jerry Britton On 4/24/01 11:57 AM, Chany, Christopher (cpc1@westchestergov.com) wrote: > HARRISBURG, PA - Norfolk Southern Corporation (NYSE: NSC) today > announced plans to quadruple the switching capacity of Enola Yard, near > Harrisburg. Excellent news!!! Wonder where the work will be performed...most likely the eastbound classification yard that was ripped out about 15 years ago. Lots of real estate there. Is this the precursor to reopening the A&S Branch? ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:33:50 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] ENOLA (kinda Long) I wonder how many cars/day Enola could process during its Golden Years with the PRR? 600 still sounds anemic! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== "Chany, Christopher" wrote: (in part) > > Listers, > > From an NS e-mail: > HARRISBURG, PA - Norfolk Southern Corporation (NYSE: NSC) today > announced plans to quadruple the switching capacity of Enola Yard, near > Harrisburg. . . . > Currently, Enola Yard is able to sort 125 rail cars daily. > Following completion of the project, the yard will process 600 rail > cars daily. . . . > > Chris Chany > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Buffalo Division Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 10:05:09 -0400 Cheech, How are you doing on information on the Buffalo Line from Olean to Buffalo? I suggest the following: 1. Attend the upcoming PRRT&HAS Convention in Camp Hill PA Thurs 5/1 through 5/6. Even some of it is better than none. I would do whatever you can to rearrange you schedule to be there. The vendor's room alone is worth the trip - they emphasize Pennsy, selling models, books, videos, timetables (employee and public), track charts, etc. If you do attend, look me up. I'll be there Thursday night at the presentation on the Elmira Branch, and will be there until Sunday morning. 2. Check Jerry Britton's Keystone Crossings for information and leads. In particular, in the model railroad section, Ken McCory's Buffalo Line model railroad covers that area. Ken is going to have his railroad open for visitors after the convention on Sunday May 6. Worth seeing. You can reach Jerry's Keystons Crossings at: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/ Model Railroads are at: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/layouts/index.html Jerry sells CD-ROM's which contain the 1923 and 1945 CT-1000, the listing of stations and sidings (including industries served) for the entire railroad, listing them by milepost location to the nearest 0.1 mile. 3. Track charts, employee timetables and other paper items are available in reprint form from: ====================== Greetings! The latest RAILROAD PAPER COLLECTIBLES catalog (#54) is online. Follow one of these links, whichever works best for you... RPC CATALOG RPC CATALOG (alternate) http://trainsite.8m.com/ http://trainsite.8m.com//index.html ============================ I have bought track chart reprints from him and he's very good to deal with. Good to check before you order to be sure he has what you want in stock and the item you want includes the information you're looking for. Just e-mail him - he gets back to you overnight usually. 4. I'm modeling the Buffalo Line from Williamsport to Keating Summit, and am currently in the planning stages researching the prototype for the early 1940's (I'm a steam fan too). It's taken me over 10 years to find information on Williamsport, but I've finally found quite a lot. I will have it with me at the convention. I can show you how I got it and how you can do the same thing in a few months, if you focus on it! 5. Both this e-mail list and PRRT&HS members are a wealth of information. Mark Bej's list of interlocking track diagrams, not to mention the rest of his web site, are superb. You can find Mark's site and the interlockings at: http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/ for the site and http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/ for the PRR home page, and http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/ for the interlocking diagrams. Hope some of this helps, and hope you can make it to the convention, in which case I look forward to meeting you! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. & downtown Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cheech" To: "PRR TALK" Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2001 8:21 AM Subject: [PRR] Buffalo Division > Hello from Otto,N.Y. > I,m Rich Bray, I signed up a week ago, sent > two messages, but had the address wrong. I'm > hoping I've got it rite! I've been an avid Pennsy > fan since '92 when my brother(reciently retired > Coasty) arranged a cab ride from Conway to > Harrisburg. I was hooked big time! Been enmassing > books on the Pennsy, doing lots of research, > joined the PRRT&HS I believe my # is 6696, I model > in N-Scale my original way to ambitious plan was > to model from Galitzen to Altoona, as I did more > research I found that the Pennsy had a line from > Olean,N.Y. to Ebenezer(W.Senca) N.Y. close to > where I live, and alot easier to check out > personally. I'm an avid steam fan, I've worked in > a boiler house for 23 years, our plant was > recintly up-dated to nat. gas & oil from coal, > luckly I was able to save a couple of steam > engines and other stuff, back to the topic of the > Buffalo Division any info. on this line would be > greatly appreciated. > Thanks > Rich Bray > (Cheech) > railroadbuff@yahoo.com > > P.S. I can't spell to save my butt!! > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:38:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] ENOLA (kinda Long) From: Jerry Britton On 4/24/01 12:33 PM, Andy Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > I wonder how many cars/day Enola could process during its Golden Years > with the PRR? 600 still sounds anemic! > For many years, there were signs at each end of the yard on Route 11/15, proclaiming Enola "the world's largest freight classification yard". The signs went down in the late 1980's, if I recall. They further stated the average number of cars processed. My recollection is more like 11,000 per day. Think about it, 600 cars is only (6) 100 car trains! Furthermore, I can't believe increasing the sort capability from 125 cars to 600 cars creates 15 jobs!!! I gotta wonder if there should be a "0" after these numbers (1250 vs. 6000 respectively). ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 12:44:25 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] ENOLA (kinda Long) Greetings to Andy, Chris and the List: The record is 20,661 cars in a single day in 1943. Dan Cupper ------------------------------------------- Andy Miller wrote: > > I wonder how many cars/day Enola could process during its Golden Years > with the PRR? 600 still sounds anemic! > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > =================================================== > > "Chany, Christopher" wrote: (in part) > > > > Listers, > > > > From an NS e-mail: > > HARRISBURG, PA - Norfolk Southern Corporation (NYSE: NSC) today > > announced plans to quadruple the switching capacity of Enola Yard, near > > Harrisburg. . . . > > Currently, Enola Yard is able to sort 125 rail cars daily. > > Following completion of the project, the yard will process 600 rail > > cars daily. . . . > > > > Chris Chany > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:45:21 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] ENOLA (kinda Long) Jerry Writes >Excellent news!!! > >Wonder where the work will be performed...most likely the eastbound >classification yard that was ripped out about 15 years ago. Lots of real >estate there. > >Is this the precursor to reopening the A&S Branch? Yesterday I switched my wall paper from a shot of nearly new BP60s to one from John Durant of the bridges at Safe Harbor from his photopoint site: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=388340&a=6601233&p=22649573 Could it be prophetic? We can only hope! You do realize that there are some perfectly good used BC Rail electrics available after the Tumbler Ridge sub shut down last year! Maybe we'll see catenary go up too? (Now to get busy decorating one of mine in NS livery!) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:21:55 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ENOLA (kinda Long) In a message dated 4/24/01 11:33:46 AM Central Daylight Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << I wonder how many cars/day Enola could process during its Golden Years with the PRR? 600 still sounds anemic! >> September 1953 Trains magazine quoted 12,000 cars per day. Yeah, when I heard of "quadrupling" the output, I had no idea how inactive the yard had gotten, even since my trip there in about 1993. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:33:35 -0400 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] ENOLA (kinda Long) That's more like it! Even if it did take the threat of Nazi domination of the world to inspire productivity like that. Does anyone know what typical peace time production was - say 1950? Jerry's guess was 11,000. Perhaps we should start a pool ;-) Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Dan Cupper wrote: > > Greetings to Andy, Chris and the List: > > The record is 20,661 cars in a single day in 1943. > > Dan Cupper > > ------------------------------------------- > Andy Miller wrote: > > > > I wonder how many cars/day Enola could process during its Golden Years > > with the PRR? 600 still sounds anemic! > > > > Regards, > > > > Andy Miller > > asmiller@mitre.org > > > > =================================================== > > > > "Chany, Christopher" wrote: (in part) > > > > > > Listers, > > > > > > From an NS e-mail: > > > HARRISBURG, PA - Norfolk Southern Corporation (NYSE: NSC) today > > > announced plans to quadruple the switching capacity of Enola Yard, near > > > Harrisburg. . . . > > > Currently, Enola Yard is able to sort 125 rail cars daily. > > > Following completion of the project, the yard will process 600 rail > > > cars daily. . . . > > > > > > Chris Chany > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:58:50 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Re: Enola Greetings to Andy, Chris and the List: In the 1920s, Enola's track capacity was 9,692 cars. Without hard operations numbers, if each track turned over once in 24 hours, that would be the average number handled in a day. The reality was probably more or less than that, but it's at least a ballpark, and it's not too far from Jerry's number. Periodically, PRR used to publish a diagram resembling a sunburst that showed how many cars ran in and out of Enola each day, and to which destinations/from which origins. Maybe someone on the list can turn up one of those. Dan Cupper ======================================== Andy Miller wrote: > > That's more like it! Even if it did take the threat of Nazi domination > of the world to inspire productivity like that. > > Does anyone know what typical peace time production was - say 1950? > Jerry's guess was 11,000. Perhaps we should start a pool ;-) > > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > =================================================== > > Dan Cupper wrote: > > > > Greetings to Andy, Chris and the List: > > > > The record is 20,661 cars in a single day in 1943. > > > > Dan Cupper > > > > ------------------------------------------- > > Andy Miller wrote: > > > > > > I wonder how many cars/day Enola could process during its Golden Years > > > with the PRR? 600 still sounds anemic! > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Andy Miller > > > asmiller@mitre.org > > > > > > =================================================== > > > > > > "Chany, Christopher" wrote: (in part) > > > > > > > > Listers, > > > > > > > > From an NS e-mail: > > > > HARRISBURG, PA - Norfolk Southern Corporation (NYSE: NSC) today > > > > announced plans to quadruple the switching capacity of Enola Yard, near > > > > Harrisburg. . . . > > > > Currently, Enola Yard is able to sort 125 rail cars daily. > > > > Following completion of the project, the yard will process 600 rail > > > > cars daily. . . . > > > > > > > > Chris Chany > > > > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > -- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 14:18:39 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] ENOLA (kinda Long) From: Jerry Britton On 4/24/01 1:21 PM, Bobspf@aol.com (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: > September 1953 Trains magazine quoted 12,000 cars per day. Yeah, when I > heard of "quadrupling" the output, I had no idea how inactive the yard had > gotten, even since my trip there in about 1993. > The yard is all but dead. There are consistently 1-5 coal trains on the eastbound running tracks. These are unleashed down the Port Road each evening. The eastbound receiving yard usually has a few trains of autoracks and a few other mixed freights, but that's it. The real activity at Enola is the diesel terminal. It remains VERY busy. I see road power from all over the map in there, so they must do some kind of overhauls for other roads. The other day there were two lines of older diesels (perhaps as many as 50) south of the shop, near the old car shop, where the NX-23 still sits. Don't know if these were awaiting scrapping or overhauls. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Vincent Troia" Subject: Re: [PRR] ENOLA (kinda Long) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 15:10:26 -0400 What is the capacity at Conway? The record at Conway? Vincent ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Cupper" To: "Andy Miller" Cc: "Chany, Christopher" ; Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 12:44 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] ENOLA (kinda Long) > Greetings to Andy, Chris and the List: > > > The record is 20,661 cars in a single day in 1943. > > > Dan Cupper > > > ------------------------------------------- > Andy Miller wrote: > > > > I wonder how many cars/day Enola could process during its Golden Years > > with the PRR? 600 still sounds anemic! > > > > Regards, > > > > Andy Miller > > asmiller@mitre.org > > > > =================================================== > > > > "Chany, Christopher" wrote: (in part) > > > > > > Listers, > > > > > > From an NS e-mail: > > > HARRISBURG, PA - Norfolk Southern Corporation (NYSE: NSC) today > > > announced plans to quadruple the switching capacity of Enola Yard, near > > > Harrisburg. . . . > > > Currently, Enola Yard is able to sort 125 rail cars daily. > > > Following completion of the project, the yard will process 600 rail > > > cars daily. . . . > > > > > > Chris Chany > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] ENOLA (kinda Long) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:05:29 -0400 Chris Chaney writes: Why, that's at the astounding rate of 5.2 cars per hour over a 24 hour day! Or 11.5 minutes per car! Ain't technology grand? We've made real progress since Pennsy used to do 3000 cars per day in Enola! How long until they put the catenary back? And add back the removed track over the Middle and Pittsburgh Divisions? The more progress we make, the worse things seem . . . .?!! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. & downtown Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Buffalo Division Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:18:05 -0400 Cheech, A couple things I missed in my first post to you: For a list and schedule of events at the convention see http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com for the Cyber Disision web site, and specifically see: http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com/convention01.html for convention schedule and information. Another good web site is http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm which covers the E&P, P&E, and Chataqua Branches. May not be the exact area you're looking for, but some great pictures and information, yard diagrams of Erie PA, and some of his links might prove helpful. Good hunting! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. & downtown Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] ENOLA Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:00:42 -0400 Bill Bigler writes: "Chris Chaney writes: Why, that's at the astounding rate of 5.2 cars per hour over a 24 hour day! Or 11.5 minutes per car! Ain't technology grand? We've made real progress since Pennsy used to do 3000 cars per day in Enola! How long until they put the catenary back? And add back the removed track over the Middle and Pittsburgh Divisions? The more progress we make, the worse things seem . . . .?!!" Could it be that in today's era of unit trains and minimal local(peddler) freight service that 125 cars a day is a lot. I would assume that if a 100 car unit coal train goes through Enola, even if it changes power they don't consider those 100 cars in the total because they didn't classify them. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] ENOLA (kinda Long) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:07:42 -0400 Perhaps the added tracks at Enola is not for added yard capacity. Perhaps NS will use the tracks for added mainline storage capacity to aleviate their "parking lot" between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh :P Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana -----Original Message----- From: Bill Bigler [mailto:wbigler@stny.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 12:05 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] ENOLA (kinda Long) Chris Chaney writes: Why, that's at the astounding rate of 5.2 cars per hour over a 24 hour day! Or 11.5 minutes per car! Ain't technology grand? We've made real progress since Pennsy used to do 3000 cars per day in Enola! How long until they put the catenary back? And add back the removed track over the Middle and Pittsburgh Divisions? The more progress we make, the worse things seem . . . .?!! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. & downtown Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Buffalo Division Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 13:47:48 -0400 Mark and List, Mark Bej asked: =========================== Not much is left of the Pennsy in Williamsport, so railroad archeology didn't yield much. The Historical Society didn't know much and didn't much care 8 years or so ago. They've changed markedly! I asked everyone I saw in Williamsport and at English's Model RR Shoppe, asked this list and every PRR railfan I came across, and I just kept asking, asking, asking. Eventually English's put me in touch with Putsee Vanucci who has some great photos of PRR and Reading in the steam days in Williamsport which he was selling. (Bowser has since posted them to their web site) I visited the Historical Society again (now the Thomas T. Taber Historical Society) and asked to see their Sanborn Insurance maps, which I learned about through this list. Bingo! All sorts of information! I ran across someone on this list who had a track chart of Williamsport in the 1930's and he gave me an enlarged copy. I found the Robert V. Brown Memorial Library and plan to stop there on my way to Camp Hill. I found an old topographic map from early 1960's in my library in my basement. Next step was to go to the Penn State University Map Library in University Park PA and look at their Sanborn Maps and old topo maps. Turns out they have every edition of Sanborn maps and several old editions of topo maps. Their maps can be copied for $.16 a copy. Someone on this list sent me via e-mail a very detailed track chart of Williamsport from the mid to late 1960's. Bit by bit my collection grew, and I have no intention of stopping now. Any other leads or specific information, listers? I greatly appreciate any and all leads. I also did internet searches, but they didn't yield much. I bought some old employee timetables, the Centennial History of the PRR, the books on the Northern Central by Gunnerson and The Elmira Branch by Bill Coloroso. I tracked down and bought a used copy of the book "The Philadelphia and Erie Railroad." I checked websites, many by members of this list. I bought all the old logging books by Thomas T. Taber and friends, including one titled "Williamsport, Lumber Capital" or something close to that. It covered late 1800's and early 1900's. I found a website for the Williamsport public bus company which has a history and pictures of the old Williamsport Trolley System which closed down in 1931 or so. Someone on this list sent me another article on the trolley system with a system map. Well, you get the idea. I ask everyone I come across, and follow up on every lead, no matter how difficult or obscure. Greg Stone of this list has done the same thing with Renovo, and has amassed a huge collection of pictures and information. Good hunting! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. & downtown Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeremy Helms" Subject: [PRR] Virus contracted Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 21:38:05 -0500 Just want to let everyone know that if you receive an email from me with attachment on it, it is a virus DO NOT open! Jeremy Helms ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty \(The Cos\)" Subject: [PRR] Return of the Critter: Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 08:06:27 -0400 Howdy All: Ive dug deeper into the vast wasteland that is my photo record keeping and came up with some more images for Safe Harbor and area, thinking of you Bruce. This is one of my all time favorite shots. Its about 1976 and Conrail is still pretty new stuff. http://www.wsbcos.com/pplsafe_bridge01.jpg its a big file - 94k. Next is a view from the other side of the big bridge. My caption tells me those are GP30s down below. http://www.wsbcos.com/pplsafe_bridge02.jpg again its a big one @ 64kb Next is a real unexpected find. This is from 1975 or so the date stamp on the print says. http://www.wsbcos.com/pplsafe_bridge03.jpg and its big too @ 75kb check out the cart with the pole attached to it. just in case you need to refer back to my original critter shot http://www.wsbcos.com/pplsafeh.jpg and it looks to be the same one too! And one more for the port road: http://www.wsbcos.com/cpdchannel Cos Cos Communications, Inc. Home Page Rail Road Pages ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty \(The Cos\)" Subject: [PRR] corrected url Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 08:27:22 -0400 Sorry I messed up again, http://www.wsbcos.com/cpdchannel.jpg I thought I had one looking out of it, but have not found it as of yet. Cos Cos Communications, Inc. Home Page Rail Road Pages ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jimy6b@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 08:39:21 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Buffalo Division Grew up next to Williamsport yards in the 40's and 50's. I spent a lot of time playing in and around this very busy yard. For a good info source about this area suggest reading Set Up Running. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:04:00 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Cresson in 1954 From: Jerry Britton Pat McKinney really came through for me...supplied me with a valuation map of Cresson to aid in my modeling. About two weeks ago we discussed loco operations in this area and determined that: 1) The steam facility at Cresson continued to serve branchline steam (mostly H's, some Hippo's) late in the 1950's. Photos appear in Triumph I. 2) Through the mid-1950's diesel helpers were serviced on the loop tracks at Gallitzin. (Pat supplied me with a valuation map of this as well.) 3) The roundhouse at Cresson may have been razed in the early 1950's, before the actual facility changed over from steam to diesel. Back to the valuation map...it shows as being revised in 1955. It shows BOTH the steam and the diesel tracks! The steam-related tracks are highlighted in red (to be removed?) and the diesel tracks are highlighted in green (to be added?). Question is, was this valuation map a proposal, meaning the work had not yet been done as of the revision date of 1955, or was it a map revision where they did not actually "erase" the removed steam trackage? I suspect the former. Even if a proposal, the indicated diesel trackage seems to match up with what exists even today. I think I will be safe, modeling 1954, to include the original steam facility. Question remains, was the roundhouse still there? It is also nice to see that the entire wye of the facility, and the main east thru the flyover, fit in a space 7.5' long and 3.75' deep in N scale. Cut no corners!!! I'll be scanning it this weekend. I'll post a low-res online. I'll be able to enlarge it to actual N scale to use as a template in laying track! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:01:35 EDT From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] T-1's on the Broadway I don't recall ever seeing a picture of a T-1 on the Broadway. As I recall, most pictures from that era show double slotted K-4's. Were the T-1's too slippery and the PRR was scared about delays or were they used on this run? Thanks, norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] T-1's on the Broadway Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:49:19 -0400 Norm and the List: I believe that T-1's did pull the Broadway. It would have occurred in 1946-47 when the T's were relatively new. At the same time, PRR did have a fleet of E-7 diesels. These engines probably got priority over any steam since the PRR, as most other railroads in the mid to late 1940's, were promoting new diesel electric locomotives pulling new lightweight passenger cars. I think in Al Staufers' PP 1, there was mention that the first 2 T-1's (6110 & 6111), pulled the Broadway Limited as early as 1942. Still, I would be great to obtain a photo of the T-1 pulling the Broadway. I think that all of the duplex / experimental steam engines designed for passenger service (S-1, S-2, and T-1) all pulled the Broadway at one time. There is a photo of the S-2 pulling the Broadway near Warsaw, Indiana in PP 1. In the Keystone article on the Chicago Terminal Division (Fall 1982), there is a pic of the S-1 pulling the Broadway south of 21st Street (Alton) Interlocking in Chicago. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana -----Original Message----- From: NDBPRR@aol.com [mailto:NDBPRR@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 9:02 AM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] T-1's on the Broadway I don't recall ever seeing a picture of a T-1 on the Broadway. As I recall, most pictures from that era show double slotted K-4's. Were the T-1's too slippery and the PRR was scared about delays or were they used on this run? Thanks, norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:01:54 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Enola Classification Capacity From: Jerry Britton Yesterday we were discussing how many cars Enola was classifying per day, in light of NS announcing they would be "upgrading" to 600 cars a day. I have a video which contains four promo films the PRR did circa 1955. One of them goes into depth about how cars are classified in a hump yard. They do not say "Enola", but it is obvious that the scene shown is Enola. The narrator indicates sorting "3-4 cars per minute". That expands to 4320-5760 per day. They were also only showing humping in one direction. I wonder if it is implied that this is a "per hump yard" figure? If so, if you double the 5760 figure you get into the 11,000-12,000 figure we seemed to agree on yesterday. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:06:11 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1's on the Broadway In a message dated 4/25/01 9:58:33 AM Central Daylight Time, Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com writes: << Still, I would be great to obtain a photo of the T-1 pulling the Broadway. >> Well, there is the photo in Pennsylvania Railroad 1940's and 50's by Ball on page 185. Unfortunately, the only evidence it is a T1 is the smoke and the capton, as it was taken in a going-away shot :-). There is a surprising lack of photos, but considering the train ran in the dark most of the year through most of the territory, not without explanation. That is why you see a lot of shots of the Manhatten Limited or the Admiral in the Chicago area. Still, we have lots of video of the Broadway during the diesel era during daylight hours. The narrow window between the end of WWII and the 1947 delivery of all the diesels that were tried out on the Broadway meant there were only a few summers that the train could be photographed with a T1. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:39:58 EDT From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] T-1's on the Broadway How does the effort of two K-4's with twelve drivers compare to a T-1 with eight? I was speculating to myself when I asked the original question if the train required more tractive effort or pulling capability than a T-1 could muster. The obvious follow up question is how does a T-1 compare in all the measurable categories to two K-4's? Do two k-4's on one train double the test plant data regarding HP and tractive effort? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: 25 Apr 2001 14:31:40 EDT From: "PETER TYRRELL JR." Subject: [PRR] Enola Capacity I remember in the 1950's when the remark was passed about "that one out of every 20 loaded frieght cars in the USA passed through Enola." ____________________________________________________________________ Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.amexmail.com/?A=1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:02:25 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Return of the Critter: >Howdy All: >Ive dug deeper into the vast wasteland that is my photo record keeping and >came up with some more images for Safe Harbor and area, thinking of you >Bruce. Cos, As always, we are but humble students in the shadow of a master! Thanks for the photos! I am, of course, scratchbuilding the bridge, and the lead photo will be a huge help! Now to the Critter! In looking at your shots, and the shot your brother took, it seems clear to me that the critter was on the tracks next to the parking area, near the dam. I believe that these are _standard gauge tracks_. This is supported by verrrry careful examination of the 2 page spread (pp108-109) in "Trackside...". In examining the photo over lunch today, I noticed that the critter can be seen in it! However, it is not on the parking lot level (lower level) but it is top of the retaining wall, just beyond the pilot beam of the tank steamer. You can even see the pole and the cart!!! (makes you yearn for the days of Kodachrome 25 and 64 eh?) The loco is now pointed to the right, where it was pointed to the left down below, indicating that it traversed the standard gauge siding and switchbacks to get to the top of the dam. Interestingly, the steamer seems to be on a different track, (and newly painted)? I think I finally understand... 0-6-0 tank steamer - possibly narrow gauge, left by contractor - rails on top of dam Critters - standard gauge, used to haul supplies (eg welding rod) between various locations on top and bottom of dam Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:05:53 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] T-1's on the Broadway All: In Carleton's "Pennsy Steam: A to T" there is a photo of a T1 at Warsaw, IN in August 1945 with the eastbound Broadway. pg 206 bottom Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:19:21 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] Key E3sd Howdy, I noticed a Key E3sd for sale recently and I wanted to ask your opinion of the model - How accurate is it? Any idea how they run? Any suggestions on a reasonable price to pay for one? I need an E3sd for the Thorndale wire train, and they sure are distinctive with the LARGE trailing wheel. Someone remarked recently that the new Mantua PRR atlantic could be used for an E3sa or an E7...but I think someone on this list remarked that the E3sa is pretty far from the E3sd. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 16:43:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Cheech Subject: [PRR] Buff. Div. Info Hello from Otto! Just want to say thanks for all the responces to my questions. Now if I can only get this "honey do" list that seems to grow larger each day now that good weather is here i can check out the leads. One good thing though, in the process of making room in my shop today I got 80' of L-girder bench work together! Thanks again for the leads, I'm gunna check them out later tonite(I've got to share the net with my daughter and better half that say that I'm hogging it! Rich Bray (cheech) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 20:00:19 -0400 From: "H.&S." Subject: [PRR] Enola Hi all... In Pennsy Power they mention that the yards capacity was 9,900 cars and that it could clear 16,000 cars on a busy day. Conway was listed as having a capacity of 12,000 cars. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 22:27:03 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Web page for Teller exhibition Greetings to Jerry and the List: A few days ago I mentioned that Jim Alexander of the Friends of the Railroad Museum was going to post some photos of the Grif Teller art exhibition opening. He now has several pages up on the museum's website at: www.rrmuseumpa.org/index.htm Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 23:00:49 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: [PRR] Enola: Firm numbers, and some interesting ones, too Greetings to Jerry and the List: Regarding our earlier posts on Enola--came across the following in some files of PRR correspondence. If statistics make you dizzy, better pass on this one. Average daily number of cars handled at Enola: Sept 1941: 19,676 cars in 256 trains (127 inbound with 9,858 cars, 129 outbound with 9,818 cars) June 1948: 12,579 cars in 155 trains (75 inbound with 6,295 cars, 80 outbound with 6,284 cars) Car capacity in 1948 was 12,934; average daily number of cars handled as of 9/48 was 13,020. Other tidbits: In 1948, Harrisburg passenger station was handling 10,000 passengers a day and Lancaster was handling 3,500 a day. In the same year, Enola diesel shop employed 107 people while Harrisburg diesel shop employed 373. On a monthly basis, Harrisburg enginehouse was dispatching these numbers of locomtoives, by class: A5 27 B- 234 E- 11 G5 2 (correct) H9 258 K4 712 I1 109 L1 452 M1 106 T1 248 Diesel 1,248 B1 121 GG1 1,498 Enola enginehouse was dispatching: H8 1 H9 819 H10 5 I1 263 K2 22 (K2 is correct) K4 2 (correct) L1 558 M1 1,066 All electric combined 1,572 All diesel combined 866 East Altoona enginehouse was dispatching: B6 121 B8 31 H9 183 H10 152 I1 2,264 J1 1,186 K4 139 L1 956 M1 1,028 Q2 2 T1 31 Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 23:41:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Key E3sd Bruce, The Key E3sd is a very nice loco. Extremely smooth. Only draw back is the coasting drive. Yes it can be "locked out" (I never did it) but I was told running abiility declines a bit in reverse? I hardly run mine so no big deal for me. May not be a big deal on a wire train. Hope you don't have 3%+ Grades though I got a terrific bargin on my Key E3sd and Key E7. I got mine from Perry's Hobbies about 5 years ago on a clearence sale. I paid about $289.00 each!!! It seems he has trouble selling Pennsy stuff up there in Minn. Routinely they list for $450.00-$500.00 if not more. .....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bud Kaiser" Subject: Re: [PRR] ENOLA (kinda Long) Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 22:12:59 -0400 My friend, Jim Dalberg, was Yardmaster at Enola in the Conrail days and the following is what he said when he sent me the story on the NS redo of the yard. Bud Kaiser Jim wrote: Rehabbing 28 miles of track to be able to handle 600 cars a day from 150 or so?. Am I missing something here?(when I worked there with both humps working we handled about 3000-3600 cars a day; now almost all switching is done from the west end of the old west class yard--which is uphill slightly to the east as was the east yard-no bowls here. Had to put brakes on the first cars into a track or they would be where you didn't want them ). Jim > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Miller" To: "Chany, Christopher" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 12:33 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] ENOLA (kinda Long) > I wonder how many cars/day Enola could process during its Golden Years > with the PRR? 600 still sounds anemic! > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "taylorsouthwood" Subject: [PRR] Re: DECAL PROBLEMS Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 07:03:54 -0400 Jerry I sent this post last night and it never made it to the list, I'm trying again. Thanks Mark Taylor ----- Original Message ----- From: taylorsouthwood To: Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 8:14 PM Subject: DECAL PROBLEMS > I am finishing up an A-B-A set of Alco PA's and I have run into a decaling > problem . I have them painted Tuscan red and have them striped and lettered > am and now adding the road numbers 5752A, 5752B, and 5753A. It seems that > the Micro scale decals ( part # 87-39 ) that I am using include the " B " > but no " A " . The pictures that I have seen of these locomotives they all > have an " A " behind the road number. I thought that I might be able to > use the " A's " out of some Champ decals that I had left over but the colors > did not match very well. Can anyone give me any suggestions on how to remedy > my problem. MARK > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Enola: Firm numbers, and some interesting ones, too Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 10:19:42 -0400 Dan: Thank you for the information; it is making me dizzy! In retrospect, the abilities and achievements of the PRR put to shame of the railroads of today. I think that there is a typo for the engine assignments for Harrisburg. 248 T-1's! (I wish). Given that the Pennsy only made 52 of these speedsters and that East Altoona had 31 assigned to their enginehouse, I would imagine that that number in Harrisburg was no more than 21. Ted Andrews -----Original Message----- From: Dan Cupper [mailto:cupper@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 10:01 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST Subject: [PRR] Enola: Firm numbers, and some interesting ones, too Greetings to Jerry and the List: Regarding our earlier posts on Enola--came across the following in some files of PRR correspondence. If statistics make you dizzy, better pass on this one. Average daily number of cars handled at Enola: Sept 1941: 19,676 cars in 256 trains (127 inbound with 9,858 cars, 129 outbound with 9,818 cars) June 1948: 12,579 cars in 155 trains (75 inbound with 6,295 cars, 80 outbound with 6,284 cars) Car capacity in 1948 was 12,934; average daily number of cars handled as of 9/48 was 13,020. Other tidbits: In 1948, Harrisburg passenger station was handling 10,000 passengers a day and Lancaster was handling 3,500 a day. In the same year, Enola diesel shop employed 107 people while Harrisburg diesel shop employed 373. On a monthly basis, Harrisburg enginehouse was dispatching these numbers of locomtoives, by class: A5 27 B- 234 E- 11 G5 2 (correct) H9 258 K4 712 I1 109 L1 452 M1 106 T1 248 Diesel 1,248 B1 121 GG1 1,498 Enola enginehouse was dispatching: H8 1 H9 819 H10 5 I1 263 K2 22 (K2 is correct) K4 2 (correct) L1 558 M1 1,066 All electric combined 1,572 All diesel combined 866 East Altoona enginehouse was dispatching: B6 121 B8 31 H9 183 H10 152 I1 2,264 J1 1,186 K4 139 L1 956 M1 1,028 Q2 2 T1 31 Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 11:34:06 -0400 From: Steve Hanlon Subject: RE: [PRR] Enola: Firm numbers, and some interesting ones, too At 10:19 AM 4/26/01 -0400, Andrews, Ted wrote: >I think that there is a typo for the engine assignments for Harrisburg. 248 >T-1's! (I wish). Given that the Pennsy only made 52 of these speedsters and >that East Altoona had 31 assigned to their enginehouse, I would imagine that >that number in Harrisburg was no more than 21. i believe the numbers are not how many are assigned, but rather how many they turned around. if i had 2 engines that ran back and forth between 2 places making 2 round trips each day, i would service those 2 engines roughly 120 times each month at each place. i think that's the right way to look at those numbers. -steve hanlon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 12:38:52 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Enola: Firm numbers, and some interesting ones, too Greetings to Steve, Ted and the List: Correct, there is no typo. As Steve notes, these are monthly dispatchment numbers--otherwise they would mean there were nearly 1,500 GG1s in existence and more than 2,200 I1s. Note that East Altoona was dispatching 31 B8s per month -- it was probably the same locomotive, dispatched from the enginehouse once per day on the same local or shop assignment in or around Altoona. Similarly with the 31 T1s at East Altoona. The T1 was not intended to be a one-division locomotive, but rather to run straight through from Harrisburg to a distant point like Chicago or Pittsburgh rather than just 131 miles to Altoona. The statistic of 31 T1s dispatched in a given month probably meant that there was some run on which it was necessary to make a power balancing move to Pittsburgh or Harrisburg once a day. (And since these numbers show only outbound locos, we're not seeing what had to be a single daily inbound T1.) So in contrast to the B8, it is unlikely that the one T1 dispatched from East Altoona was the same engine every day. It may have been PRR's way of cycling engines through their monthly inspection or boiler wash. Hope this helps. Dan ---------------------------- Steve Hanlon wrote: > > At 10:19 AM 4/26/01 -0400, Andrews, Ted wrote: > > >I think that there is a typo for the engine assignments for Harrisburg. 248 > >T-1's! (I wish). Given that the Pennsy only made 52 of these speedsters and > >that East Altoona had 31 assigned to their enginehouse, I would imagine that > >that number in Harrisburg was no more than 21. > > i believe the numbers are not how many are assigned, but rather how many > they turned around. if i had 2 engines that ran back and forth between 2 > places making 2 round trips each day, i would service those 2 engines > roughly 120 times each month at each place. > > i think that's the right way to look at those numbers. > > -steve hanlon > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 12:40:58 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Enola: Firm numbers, and some interesting ones, too Greetings to Steve, Ted and the List: Correct, there is no typo. As Steve notes, these are monthly dispatchment numbers--otherwise they would mean there were nearly 1,500 GG1s in existence and more than 2,200 I1s. Note that East Altoona was dispatching 31 B8s per month -- it was probably the same locomotive, dispatched from the enginehouse once per day on the same local or shop assignment in or around Altoona. Similarly with the 31 T1s at East Altoona. The T1 was not intended to be a one-division locomotive, but rather to run straight through from Harrisburg to a distant point like Chicago or Pittsburgh rather than just 131 miles to Altoona. The statistic of 31 T1s dispatched in a given month probably meant that there was some run on which it was necessary to make a power balancing move to Pittsburgh or Harrisburg once a day. (And since these numbers show only outbound locos, we're not seeing what had to be a single daily inbound T1.) So in contrast to the B8, it is unlikely that the one T1 dispatched from East Altoona was the same engine every day. It may have been PRR's way of cycling engines through their monthly inspection or boiler wash. Hope this helps. Dan Cupper ---------------------------- Steve Hanlon wrote: > > At 10:19 AM 4/26/01 -0400, Andrews, Ted wrote: > > >I think that there is a typo for the engine assignments for Harrisburg. 248 > >T-1's! (I wish). Given that the Pennsy only made 52 of these speedsters and > >that East Altoona had 31 assigned to their enginehouse, I would imagine that > >that number in Harrisburg was no more than 21. > > i believe the numbers are not how many are assigned, but rather how many > they turned around. if i had 2 engines that ran back and forth between 2 > places making 2 round trips each day, i would service those 2 engines > roughly 120 times each month at each place. > > i think that's the right way to look at those numbers. > > -steve hanlon > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Enola: Firm numbers, and some interesting ones, too Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 13:00:54 -0400 Dan: Thanks for the information and clarification. This makes your original post even more intriguing. In a time before computers, it would be amazing to see how the Pennsy managed the scheduling of over 4,000 engines. From the routine monthly inspections to the boiler washes, it must of have been organized chaos, especially during WW 2. And we are not even mentioning the routine maintenance schedules for the hundreds of thousands of freight and passenger cars! It would even make Carl Sagan say "billions and billions of H-21's!! Ted -----Original Message----- From: Dan Cupper [mailto:cupper@worldnet.att.net] Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 11:39 AM To: Steve Hanlon Cc: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Enola: Firm numbers, and some interesting ones, too Greetings to Steve, Ted and the List: Correct, there is no typo. As Steve notes, these are monthly dispatchment numbers--otherwise they would mean there were nearly 1,500 GG1s in existence and more than 2,200 I1s. Note that East Altoona was dispatching 31 B8s per month -- it was probably the same locomotive, dispatched from the enginehouse once per day on the same local or shop assignment in or around Altoona. Similarly with the 31 T1s at East Altoona. The T1 was not intended to be a one-division locomotive, but rather to run straight through from Harrisburg to a distant point like Chicago or Pittsburgh rather than just 131 miles to Altoona. The statistic of 31 T1s dispatched in a given month probably meant that there was some run on which it was necessary to make a power balancing move to Pittsburgh or Harrisburg once a day. (And since these numbers show only outbound locos, we're not seeing what had to be a single daily inbound T1.) So in contrast to the B8, it is unlikely that the one T1 dispatched from East Altoona was the same engine every day. It may have been PRR's way of cycling engines through their monthly inspection or boiler wash. Hope this helps. Dan ---------------------------- Steve Hanlon wrote: > > At 10:19 AM 4/26/01 -0400, Andrews, Ted wrote: > > >I think that there is a typo for the engine assignments for Harrisburg. 248 > >T-1's! (I wish). Given that the Pennsy only made 52 of these speedsters and > >that East Altoona had 31 assigned to their enginehouse, I would imagine that > >that number in Harrisburg was no more than 21. > > i believe the numbers are not how many are assigned, but rather how many > they turned around. if i had 2 engines that ran back and forth between 2 > places making 2 round trips each day, i would service those 2 engines > roughly 120 times each month at each place. > > i think that's the right way to look at those numbers. > > -steve hanlon > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Virus alert!!! Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 15:42:24 -0400 Guys, Risking your collective wrath but I have received notification about TWO rather nasty viruses recently identified by both Microsoft (http://www.microsoft.com/ ) and by McAfee (http://www.mcafee.com/). 1) DO NOT open any mails labeled "a virtual card for you" DELETE IMMEDIATELY as once the card is opened the computer freezes, requiring a reboot. Once rebooted, the virus destroys Sector Zero, destroying the hard disk. 2) DO NOT open any mail called "An Internet Flower For You". DELEATE IMMEDIATELY! This virus removes ALL dynamic link libraries (.dll files) from your computer. Lets be careful out there, Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 16:25:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Virus alert!!! From: Jerry Britton On 4/26/01 3:42 PM, Walt Prusick at (walpru@stargate.net) wrote: > Risking your collective wrath but I have received notification about TWO > rather nasty viruses recently identified by both Microsoft > (http://www.microsoft.com/ ) and by McAfee (http://www.mcafee.com/). > 1) DO NOT open any mails labeled "a virtual card for you" DELETE IMMEDIATELY > as once the card is opened the computer freezes, requiring a reboot. Once > rebooted, the virus destroys Sector Zero, destroying the hard disk. > 2) DO NOT open any mail called "An Internet Flower For You". DELEATE > IMMEDIATELY! This virus removes ALL dynamic link libraries (.dll files) from > your computer. > I am about to take on a "zero tolerance" policy for virus warnings on this list. I made a post about a month ago that gave directions for subscribing to virus warning lists. This is not the forum and the lists of DSOP.COM are configured in such a way that they absolutely cannot spread any currently known viruses. Attachments and MIME/HTML format are disallowed, which are the current means of distribution. If you are still worried, get a Macintosh! -------------------------------------- Listmaster Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. http://www.dsop.com listmaster@dsop.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 16:47:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Caboose Question-Again Lists, Just about ready to start painting my scratch built G Scale PRR N5b Cabin. I am modeling this circa 1954/Shadow Keystone version with Train Phone Antenna. I doubt if I build the interior, at least not yet anyway. My question is what color was the interior walls and floor? I am thinking they were a light buff (similar to building color) walls and gray floor? Is this correct? TIA.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 16:56:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] RE: Caboose ..... Lists, Whoops, I wanted to add this photo link to my last post. This is what the N5b looked like a few weeks ago. http://community-2.webtv.net/mittner/PRRN5bCabin/ The cabin in front is an HO model I used for dimensions. The G Scale version now has the wood roofwalks removed, (found out they should be metal walks). Trucks are attached as is the antenna system. Should be able to update with more pics several week from now. Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 16:47:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] Caboose Question-Again Lists, Just about ready to start painting my scratch built G Scale PRR N5b Cabin. I am modeling this circa 1954/Shadow Keystone version with Train Phone Antenna. I doubt if I build the interior, at least not yet anyway. My question is what color was the interior walls and floor? I am thinking they were a light buff (similar to building color) walls and gray floor? Is this correct? TIA.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Caboose Question-Again Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 17:50:21 -0400 Gary: Coal stove smoke soot color would be the most prototypical, especially if used in yard service. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Mittner" To: ; ; Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 4:47 PM Subject: [PRR] Caboose Question-Again > Lists, > > Just about ready to start painting my scratch built G Scale PRR N5b > Cabin. I am modeling this circa 1954/Shadow Keystone version with Train > Phone Antenna. I doubt if I build the interior, at least not yet anyway. > My question is what color was the interior walls and floor? I am > thinking they were a light buff (similar to building color) walls and > gray floor? Is this correct? TIA.....Gary > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > PRR Loco Pics: > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > & > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > and...... > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 18:16:57 EDT Subject: [PRR] Virus alert (not only that-) Not only are the constant virus alerts an irritant but the "Geekmaster" of annother "List" l got this one through - reports that the "Alert" itself is a hoax! RR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: Re: [PRR] Caboose Question-Again Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 16:31:36 -0700 Only if the smokejack was totally non-functional. None of the ones I remember seeing were smokey on the inside. You can bet that the conductors and/or brakemen assigned to these cars made sure that the jacks actually worked. Bill Daniels On Thu, 26 Apr 2001 17:50:21 -0400 "Gregg Mahlkov" wrote: > Gary: > > Coal stove smoke soot color would be the most > prototypical, especially if > used in yard service. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gary Mittner" > To: ; ; > > Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 4:47 PM > Subject: [PRR] Caboose Question-Again > > > > Lists, > > > > Just about ready to start painting my scratch built > G Scale PRR N5b > > Cabin. I am modeling this circa 1954/Shadow Keystone > version with Train > > Phone Antenna. I doubt if I build the interior, at > least not yet anyway. > > My question is what color was the interior walls and > floor? I am > > thinking they were a light buff (similar to building > color) walls and > > gray floor? Is this correct? TIA.....Gary > > > > > > > > > > Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical > Items, Art > > Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > > > > PRR Loco Pics: > > http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > > > > & > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html > > and...... > > > > PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the > message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message > "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: egatwood@spl.usace.army.mil Subject: RE: [PRR] Northbound coal Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 19:00:32 -0700 I always wondered about this issue myself, as one would expect PRR hoppers to be more dominant given their origination on the PRR (Mon Valley, Cresson branches, etc) and having not gone thru any interchange between loading and unloading, but it was true that there were LOTS of foreign road hoppers on the PRR, particularly into the 60's. Having asked, one PRR employee told me that PRR borrowed lots of foreign hoppers to fill out the ranks, given that they did not have enough of their own anymore. This makes a lot of sense, given the large-scale retirements of GLA and H21 series that were happening in the 50's and reaching drastic proportions in the 60's. Regardless, and as others are pointing out, there were plenty of foreign hoppers visible all over the PRR, the ones I remember most being NYC, P&LE, N&W, B&O, C&O, P&WV, Rdg, Montour, P&S, and even a disproportionate number of Berwind-White and Cambria and Indiana thrown in for good measure. elden ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Pennsyman50@gateway.net Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 23:35:37 EDT Subject: [PRR] (no subject) List, What foreign road hoppers would have been seen during the 1960s out in Illinois? Was there much coal hauled out of Illinois on the PRR? I would assume most was eastbound. Mines off the Peoria branch, or the St. Louis main? Jon Anderson (pennsyman50@gateway.net) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 07:41:05 EDT Subject: [PRR-FAX] Mundy's on minority interests in the Panhandle Fellow Pennsy fans, Sadly, I am unable to be at Camp Hill this year; the calendar is just too full. At least I'll be home for the Kentucky Derby, which is always the first Saturday in May, same as PRRT&HS. I'll see a few of you here May 17-20 for Thorobred 2001, Louisville's first NMRA Mid-Central Region convention in 22 years, and the home layout will be open to visitors on that Sunday. Just to tide you over, here's a little Lines West tidbit from Mundy's Earning Power of Railroads (1930), a book crammed with financial reporting, debt instruments, stock ownership, and details of leases. It's item 1586 of Jack Fravert's books that we'll auction off in June. We all know that through the Pennsylvania Company, the PRR had controlling stock ownership in Lines West. But we're likely more vague about how minority interests in railroads were reduced. Thus the following paragraphs from Mundy: ___________________________________________________________ On March 15, 1920, the "Panhandle" owed the Pennsylvania Company approximately $22,000,000 for advances, to fund which debt $20,000,000 General Mortgage 5% Bonds, due 1970, were issued and delivered to the Pennsylvania Co. The latter then offered to purchase outstanding minority stock of the "Panhandle," paying par for par in these bonds, which are guaranteed by the PRR. The offer was accepted by holders of $17,479,100 stock, and control of the "Panhandle" by the Pennsylvania Co. and PRR was increased from 77.5% to 97.55% at present (1930). CONSOLIDATED IN 1916 - Late in 1916, a plan of consolidation was announced whereby the "Panhandle," the "Vandalia," and other Pennsylvaina Lines would be operated under one direct management, and the present company was formed. Under the plan $84,860.208 stock, all of one class, was issuable as follows (table shows distribution to securityholders of Chicago Ind. & Eastern Ry, Panhandle, Pittsburgh & Wheeling RR, and Vandalia RR). A large majority of the new stock accrued to the Pennsylvania Co. as owner of "Panhandle" and Vandalia RR stocks. _______________________________________________________ I find it interesting that, even in 1920, minority stock ownership in the Panhandle was still almost 25%. Mundy's description above perhaps explains (to the majority of fans who are hopelessly confused by control and ownership issues) why the PRR interests could LEASE AND OPERATE Lines West roads, but could not OWN them outright. Have a great convention, and I'll hope to meet you in Camp Hill in May of 2002. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Modeling the Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 07:41:05 EDT Subject: [PRR] Mundy's on minority interests in the Panhandle Fellow Pennsy fans, Sadly, I am unable to be at Camp Hill this year; the calendar is just too full. At least I'll be home for the Kentucky Derby, which is always the first Saturday in May, same as PRRT&HS. I'll see a few of you here May 17-20 for Thorobred 2001, Louisville's first NMRA Mid-Central Region convention in 22 years, and the home layout will be open to visitors on that Sunday. Just to tide you over, here's a little Lines West tidbit from Mundy's Earning Power of Railroads (1930), a book crammed with financial reporting, debt instruments, stock ownership, and details of leases. It's item 1586 of Jack Fravert's books that we'll auction off in June. We all know that through the Pennsylvania Company, the PRR had controlling stock ownership in Lines West. But we're likely more vague about how minority interests in railroads were reduced. Thus the following paragraphs from Mundy: ___________________________________________________________ On March 15, 1920, the "Panhandle" owed the Pennsylvania Company approximately $22,000,000 for advances, to fund which debt $20,000,000 General Mortgage 5% Bonds, due 1970, were issued and delivered to the Pennsylvania Co. The latter then offered to purchase outstanding minority stock of the "Panhandle," paying par for par in these bonds, which are guaranteed by the PRR. The offer was accepted by holders of $17,479,100 stock, and control of the "Panhandle" by the Pennsylvania Co. and PRR was increased from 77.5% to 97.55% at present (1930). CONSOLIDATED IN 1916 - Late in 1916, a plan of consolidation was announced whereby the "Panhandle," the "Vandalia," and other Pennsylvaina Lines would be operated under one direct management, and the present company was formed. Under the plan $84,860.208 stock, all of one class, was issuable as follows (table shows distribution to securityholders of Chicago Ind. & Eastern Ry, Panhandle, Pittsburgh & Wheeling RR, and Vandalia RR). A large majority of the new stock accrued to the Pennsylvania Co. as owner of "Panhandle" and Vandalia RR stocks. _______________________________________________________ I find it interesting that, even in 1920, minority stock ownership in the Panhandle was still almost 25%. Mundy's description above perhaps explains (to the majority of fans who are hopelessly confused by control and ownership issues) why the PRR interests could LEASE AND OPERATE Lines West roads, but could not OWN them outright. Have a great convention, and I'll hope to meet you in Camp Hill in May of 2002. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Modeling the Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Mundy's on minority interests in the Panhandle Date: Fri, 27 Apr 101 09:41:30 -0400 (EDT) RickTipton@aol.com scribit: > > ___________________________________________________________ > > On March 15, 1920, the "Panhandle" owed the Pennsylvania Company > approximately $22,000,000 for advances, to fund which debt $20,000,000 > General Mortgage 5% Bonds, due 1970, were issued and delivered to the Hmm... I seem to remember this date as one that will live in infamy ... -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Re: Foreign Road Hoppers Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 10:26:14 -0400 During the late '40's/early '50's I spend some time riding mine runs on the Montour Railroad, a fallen flag coal hauling short line near Pittsburgh which I believe the Pennsy & P&LE owned most of the stock in. The Montour owned what seemed like endless strings of hopper cars - enough that they should never need to resort to foreigh road hoppers. Nevertheless, it seems to me that about half the hoppers on the railroad at any given time were foreign road, the big proportion of them from roads the Montour interchanged with, such as P&LE, NYC, PRR, B&O and probably a couple I'm missing. Virtually all coal hauled was for delivery off line, expect for stop-over coal for the cleaning plant at Champion. Around the same time I lived for a couple years in Chardon OH, on B&O's Lake Branch which was mainly a coal hauling line, and it was rare to see anything other than endless strings of B&O hoppers. I guess it just depends on where the coal is from and going to, and there's no particular rule of thumb that applies in general, but specific locations were pretty consistent, whichever way they went. Hope this helps. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. & downtown Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 11:35 PM Subject: [PRR] (no subject) > List, > > What foreign road hoppers would have been seen during the 1960s out in > Illinois? Was there much coal hauled out of Illinois on the PRR? I would > assume most was eastbound. Mines off the Peoria branch, or the St. Louis > main? > > Jon Anderson (pennsyman50@gateway.net) > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 07:59:57 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Mundy's on minority interests in the Panhandle --- Mark Bej wrote: > RickTipton@aol.com scribit: > > General Mortgage 5% Bonds, due 1970, were issued > and delivered to the > > Hmm... > > I seem to remember this date as one that will live > in infamy ... > To what do you allude? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Mundy's on minority interests in the Panhandle Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 11:57:28 -0400 Sweet Old Bob: If you don't recall, I've got 11 shares of Penn Central stock I'll sell you! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: "Mark Bej" ; Cc: Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 10:59 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] Mundy's on minority interests in the Panhandle > > --- Mark Bej wrote: > > RickTipton@aol.com scribit: > > > > General Mortgage 5% Bonds, due 1970, were issued > > and delivered to the > > > > Hmm... > > > > I seem to remember this date as one that will live > > in infamy ... > > > > To what do you allude? > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 10:10:26 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] Mundy's on minority interests in the Panhandle --- Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > Sweet Old Bob: > Question still stands. I don't get the reference to 1970 specifically. Was that when PC declared bankruptcy? (I wasn't paying attention at the time.) Was the maturing of the bonds Rick mentioned what pushed PC over the edge? > If you don't recall, I've got 11 shares of Penn > Central stock I'll sell you! > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "robert netzlof" > To: "Mark Bej" ; > > Cc: > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 10:59 AM > Subject: Re: [PRR] Mundy's on minority interests in > the Panhandle > > > > > > --- Mark Bej wrote: > > > RickTipton@aol.com scribit: > > > > > > General Mortgage 5% Bonds, due 1970, were > issued > > > and delivered to the > > > > > > Hmm... > > > > > > I seem to remember this date as one that will > live > > > in infamy ... > > > > > > > To what do you allude? > > > ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 14:11:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR Cabin Build Date Roger K, lists, Trying to find out when PRR N5b Cabin 477641 was built. It was either 4-41 or 5-41. Is there specific info on this? Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Mundy's on minority interests in the Panhandle Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 15:02:20 -0400 Sweet Old Bob: I was a Sales Representative for the PC (ex-PRR) in New Orleans in 1970, and that indeed is when PC bankrupted. The week before, on the company's instructions, I had lugged around a TV-tape setup with a video "We built a Winner" furnished by the PC. My customers had some fun with me for years over that! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: "Gregg Mahlkov" ; "Mark Bej" ; Cc: Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Mundy's on minority interests in the Panhandle > > --- Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > Sweet Old Bob: > > > > Question still stands. I don't get the reference to > 1970 specifically. Was that when PC declared > bankruptcy? (I wasn't paying attention at the time.) > Was the maturing of the bonds Rick mentioned what > pushed PC over the edge? > > > > If you don't recall, I've got 11 shares of Penn > > Central stock I'll sell you! > > > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "robert netzlof" > > To: "Mark Bej" ; > > > > Cc: > > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 10:59 AM > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Mundy's on minority interests in > > the Panhandle > > > > > > > > > > --- Mark Bej wrote: > > > > RickTipton@aol.com scribit: > > > > > > > > General Mortgage 5% Bonds, due 1970, were > > issued > > > > and delivered to the > > > > > > > > Hmm... > > > > > > > > I seem to remember this date as one that will > > live > > > > in infamy ... > > > > > > > > > > To what do you allude? > > > > > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 15:08:46 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Cabin Build Date Gary Mittner wrote: > Roger K, lists, > > Trying to find out when PRR N5b Cabin 477641 was built. It was either > 4-41 or 5-41. Is there specific info on this? Thanks, Gary Found it- Wycombe PA PRR 477641 PC/CR 22899, built May 1941, near Reading/New Hope & Ivyland Depot Regards, Eddie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 14:11:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Cabin Build Date Roger K, lists, Trying to find out when PRR N5b Cabin 477641 was built. It was either 4-41 or 5-41. Is there specific info on this? Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Keith Pomroy" Subject: RE: [PRR] Mundy's on minority interests in the Panhandle Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 18:46:15 -0400 Gregg, Are you sure those PC shares might not be worth something even now? I mean, as financial instruments, not historical memorabilia? After 1976, Penn Central began its gradual evolution into an insurance company headed by Carl Lindner (who also is involved in Chiquita brands). In 1994, PC changed its name to American Premier Underwriters, which was later acquired by American Financial Group. I should think that anyone owning PRR, NYC or PC stock (though not NH, since the PC never bought the NH corporate shell, just the railroad assets--I think) would still have a stake in AFG. Of course, you should check with a financial advisor on this, but you might have a bit of something there! Just a suggestion. --Keith -----Original Message----- From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Gregg Mahlkov Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 3:02 PM To: robert netzlof; Mark Bej; RickTipton@aol.com Cc: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Mundy's on minority interests in the Panhandle Sweet Old Bob: I was a Sales Representative for the PC (ex-PRR) in New Orleans in 1970, and that indeed is when PC bankrupted. The week before, on the company's instructions, I had lugged around a TV-tape setup with a video "We built a Winner" furnished by the PC. My customers had some fun with me for years over that! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: "Gregg Mahlkov" ; "Mark Bej" ; Cc: Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Mundy's on minority interests in the Panhandle > > --- Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > Sweet Old Bob: > > > > Question still stands. I don't get the reference to > 1970 specifically. Was that when PC declared > bankruptcy? (I wasn't paying attention at the time.) > Was the maturing of the bonds Rick mentioned what > pushed PC over the edge? > > > > If you don't recall, I've got 11 shares of Penn > > Central stock I'll sell you! > > > > Gregg Mahlkov > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "robert netzlof" > > To: "Mark Bej" ; > > > > Cc: > > Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 10:59 AM > > Subject: Re: [PRR] Mundy's on minority interests in > > the Panhandle > > > > > > > > > > --- Mark Bej wrote: > > > > RickTipton@aol.com scribit: > > > > > > > > General Mortgage 5% Bonds, due 1970, were > > issued > > > > and delivered to the > > > > > > > > Hmm... > > > > > > > > I seem to remember this date as one that will > > live > > > > in infamy ... > > > > > > > > > > To what do you allude? > > > > > > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 14:25:50 -0400 From: ERIC LAUTERBACH Subject: [PRR] Pennsy L2 I was browsing steamlocomotive.com yesterday and noticed that the Frisco USRA 2-8-2 that is preserved in Birmingham is listed as a former Pennsy engine. I ask a Frisco fan about this and he confirmed that indeed 4018 used to be a Pennsy engine. Does anyone have anymore information about this? Thanks, Eric ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy L2 Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 14:45:05 -0400 Eric:- I do know that PRR did not keep all the USRA Light Mikados assigned to it by the USRA. There were either 10 or 15, but PRR only kept 5 that were assigned to the GR&I. That is I suspect where this one came from - the group that were not retained after the railroads returned to private ownership in 1920. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "ERIC LAUTERBACH" To: Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 2:25 PM Subject: [PRR] Pennsy L2 > I was browsing steamlocomotive.com yesterday and noticed that the Frisco > USRA 2-8-2 that is preserved in Birmingham is listed as a former Pennsy > engine. I ask a Frisco fan about this and he confirmed that indeed 4018 > used to be a Pennsy engine. Does anyone have anymore information about > this? > Thanks, > Eric > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 14:53:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy L2 That is a interesting find considering the PRR only had 5 or so of that type loco. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 15:27:32 -0400 From: "Dr. Edmond L. Freed" Subject: [PRR] No subject was specified. Message from Jerry- 6/11/99 This western edge of my map is very hard to read as it was a blueprint exposed to sunlight for decades. This helped to conceal the connection. But using Adobe PhotoShop's color correction and sharpening filters I was able to create a clearer version of the original! I will permanently clean up the station map and resize it to match Craig's. I am truly excited that we'll now have this much of Harrisburg covered "to scale". Do we stop there? No! Craig is also loaning me 3 valuation maps that cover all of Enola Yard!!! A side note: Craig has blueprints of the Harrisburg Station -- elevations and floor plans. Unfortunately, the blue color has bled through into the white lines and there isn't enough contrast to make a decent scan. I will continue to work to find a way to clean these up as well, but it will be a long time coming, if at all. Jerry- Did you ever get any of these maps scanned. They would certainly be useful for us Hbg. modelers. Dr. Edmond L. Freed, SBF Member, PRRT&HS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 18:10:58 EDT Subject: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F7 I haven't been paying much attention. If I get an F7A and B set, how do I get a single A unit for an ABA set? What is the part number, if any,for that? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F7 Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 18:23:58 -0400 The Athearn / Genesis part number is 1001A for road number 9676A. We have them as part number 141-10011. By the way, the 9675A/9675B is part 1500A and the 9674A/9674B is part number 1500B. Dennis mailto: dennis@onerrave.com D & S HOBBIES http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2001 6:10 PM Subject: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F7 > I haven't been paying much attention. If I get an F7A and B set, how do I > get a single A unit for an ABA set? What is the part number, if any,for that? > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 18:28:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F7 Bob, The F units are being sold as an A-B set and also another # A as a Single item. Watch out at train shows because dealers are starting to break the A-B sets up if you need more B Units......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 18:43:08 -0400 From: "David R. Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F7 Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > > I haven't been paying much attention. If I get an F7A and B set, how do I > get a single A unit for an ABA set? What is the part number, if any,for that? > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". Bob, They sell a single F7A. The box mine came in has 0G1001A on it (Athearn says it's G1001A), PRR #9676. The first A/B set is G15010 F7A #9675A & G15011 F7B #9675B. The Athearn web site indicates this set is Athearn #G1501A. plus they have released another A/B set, numbers #9674A & #9674B. David Campbell Norton, VA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 11:22:09 +1000 From: "Mick Molloy" Subject: [PRR] (OT) MS Rail Sim Hi Guys, Does anyone know if and whem Microsoft Rail Simulator will be released? The website at: http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim/default.asp has not been recently updated and still claims arelease date of Spring 2001. As you guys on the other half of the world are well into spring I would have expected a more defined release date. Thanks for any info, Pennsy Australia's No:1 SPF Happy Rails ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: Re: [PRR] (OT) MS Rail Sim Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 12:51:14 +0100 I believe early June 2001, just a note I know that there is someone working on a G5s for the game in due course Patrick Grace ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mick Molloy" To: "PRR Talk Discussion Group" Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2001 2:22 AM Subject: [PRR] (OT) MS Rail Sim > Hi Guys, > > Does anyone know if and whem Microsoft Rail Simulator will be released? > > The website at: http://www.microsoft.com/games/trainsim/default.asp has not been recently > updated and still claims arelease date of Spring 2001. > > As you guys on the other half of the world are well into spring I would have expected a more > defined release date. > > Thanks for any info, > > Pennsy > Australia's No:1 SPF > Happy Rails > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 09:16:03 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F7 From: Jerry Britton On 4/28/01 6:10 PM, Bobspf@aol.com at (Bobspf@aol.com) wrote: > I haven't been paying much attention. If I get an F7A and B set, how do I > get a single A unit for an ABA set? What is the part number, if any,for that? > First run they offered an A/B set and a single A. At this point I only have one of each remaining and they will be going to the PRRT&HS convention next week. I do not expect to return with them! A second A/B set was released and I have them in quantity. They will also be available at the convention. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "lmatt" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS meeting May 3 - 6 Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 09:20:34 -0400 I will be unable to attend the upcoming events. Contact me about the B60 project by e-mail if we were planning to get together at the meeting. Lew Matt ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 09:45:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] Decal Help, List, Middle Division Decals are at it again. Not answering email requests, Geez!!!. Great decals but awful service. Anyone going to the Pennsy Convetion for sure and is willing to pick up a set for me from this dealer table please email me with my need. 1 or 2 sets is all I am after. Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Carl Izzo" Subject: [PRR] PRR engines & cars for sale Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 13:21:31 -0400 To the List: I have post-1950 HO scale rtr PRR engines @ $25.00, rtr PRR freight cars with delayed action couplers,at @ $6.00, and PRR freight car kits from $5.00 to $9.00 for sale. They will be available in a "trunk sale" at the PRRT&HS Annual Meeting. If interested, please contact me OFF LIST at cpizzo@worldnet.att.net. Carl P. Izzo ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Decal Help, Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 13:50:49 -0500 Gary--For Middle Division decals try D & S Hobbies at http://www.onerrave.com/ . Their inventory is on the net and you can see what they have in stock. They have had a good supply of Middle Division's elusive products in the past. Also they provide great service. They are also on this list. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 15:06:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Decal Help, Steve, I already lookd at D&S inventory and Dennis didn't list the O Scale set I need. Another list member will pick some up for me at the convention. What I need is the large Shadow Keystone from the O Scale set to represent the Shadow Keystone for my G Scale N5b. The size will work pretty good. .....Thanks, Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 17:19:49 -0400 From: "H.&S." Subject: [PRR] ECW-Spectrum-B74b Hello folks... Ok...i'm asking for a opinion here. I have one of the old Walthers B-74b horse cars that i need to add trucks to. Depending on which car,they used both 3D-P1 and 3D5P2 trucks.(per PRR equipment roster Oct. 1954) Anyway i know the rolling qualities of the Spectrum trucks as they are under some of my Spectrum Pennsy cars. But what are the ECW trucks like? To use the Spectrum trucks,i'll have to get a Spectrum car and remove the trucks (something i've had to do before). But i'd like to avoid that if possible. Anyone have anything to day about ECW's trucks? This will also determine what number i use for this car. til later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 18:19:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] ECW-Spectrum-B74b In a message dated 4/29/01 4:30:30 PM Central Daylight Time, bubbles@visi.net writes: << Anyone have anything to day about ECW's trucks? >> I've had some to put together, but for my BCW cars I picked up a few brass trucks a few years ago. However, I understand there is a problem with one side of either the two or three axle ECW side frames having the axle dimples out of alignment. I also understand that some people have installed brass insert bearing sleeves in these side frames, correcting this problem as well as the problem of pointed axle wheelsets wearing out the soft plastic of the side frame material. I apologize for being a little vague on the details, but I wanted to get you a quick answer in case the person who came up with the solution is not on this list. If he is, then he can fill in the blanks a lot more accurately, including the source for the bearings. If he isn't, let me know if you need more help and I will repost to the Prototype Modeler list which is the next most likely place for the answer. In the meantime, I will see if I saved the information on my hard drive somewhere. BTW, brass trucks are not an automatic answer, except to get reasonably accurate variations. After spending a frigging fortune on them, I am faced with another large sum for roller bearing wheelsets to get these PSC sleds to move. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 08:58:54 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Convention Breakfast Reminder & Directions From: Jerry Britton Just a reminder to all, as the convention is now just days away, about the breakfast get-together on Saturday morning. From the Cyber Division web site: 7:00 - 8:30 A.M. - "I Love the Smell of Diesel Fumes in the Morning" Bring Your Own Breakfast - The "PRR-Talk" list and the membership of the Cyber Division invite all for a "bring your own breakfast" get-together at the concrete bridge (replaced the old iron bridge) over the west throat of the Enola Yards. Watch the action while meeting online friends and sharing stories. Directions: Exit hotel and turn left, north onto Routes 11/15. At the light at the "T" at the river, turn left, continuing on Routes 11/15 north. As you pass the Enola Yards (on the right) you will pass Dunkin Donuts, McDonalds, and Wendy's, on the left, in that order. Just past Wendy's the road widens to four lanes and there is a traffic light. Turn left here, onto Valley Road. Make the first right onto First Street. Make the first right onto Miller Street. Follow this over I-81 until you come to a stop sign at a "T". Turn right onto Belle Vista Drive. Follow this 8/10 of a mile to the bridge. Total travel time from hotel is about 15 minutes. Hope to see many of you there! Also, "Merchandise Service" has three tables in the vendors room, one of which is being donated to the Cyber Division. The Cyber Division will use this space as a meeting/get-together area. Please stop by and introduce yourself...we "should" be the first tables along the wall immediately to the right as you enter the room. There will be a large overhead sign reading "PENNSYRR.COM". ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 10:58:09 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] ECW-Spectrum-B74b Hank asked: > Anyone have anything to day about > ECW's trucks? ECW lists: 9001 P.R.R 2D-P5 9011/9021 P.R.R. 3D-P1, 3D-P7 Precision lists: #32318, 3D7P2 3 axle trucks #32319, 3D5P1 3 axle trucks #33179, 2 axle passenger trucks The 3D-P1 trucks aren't too bad from ECW, although I have had trouble getting them to stay together. I'm going to try to a new adhesive cyanopoxy, from Mike Rose Hobbies as he says this stuff works on delrin! (http://www.mrhobby.com/Cyantips.html). The 2D-P5 trucks from ECW are JUNK! I just throw them away - they are the ones with improperly located axle holes in half the sideframes. The Precision Scale trucks are OK when you can get them, but I have one with an unidentifiable short circuit, and they aren' the best rollers in the world (you definitely want to mask the axle ends and bearings when painting them. I just checked Walthers and they are out of stock on all of them. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!