Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 11:43:54 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Listserv Problem, Correction From: Jerry Britton Listers, An "on-the-ball" Reading-Talk/Conrail-talk subscriber brought to my attention errors he was receiving back from the listserv when attempting to post. Our DNS/Mail server has, remarkably, only a 350MB drive. It was full. A subscriber was not reachable and, for one reason or another, the bouncebacks were not tripping our automated bounce management. Anyway, his account alone was consuming 88MB of space. Normally there is about 100MB for e-mail, so this situation left only about 12MB! Unfortunately, even with deleting this mail, the listserv forwards via this mail server and had several hundred MB's of mail waiting in the wings, so it filled up the hard drive ASAP as well! While 100MB of free space is plenty for 99% of the time, I happened to have a spare 4GB drive nearby, so the mail server now has PLENTY of space! The mail server is now playing catchup, so please be patient. A few notes: * If you received bounce-backs on mail you tried to post, please try again. It should go through now. * You may receive some posts that seem old (1-2 days, perhaps). That's stuff you never got because there wasn't enough room on the mail server to accept mail from the listserver. * I "suspect" there may be some duplicate posts due to my taking the mail server up and down a few times this morning. Now's a good time to exercise that DELETE KEY reflex! If you notice any anomolies come, say Tuesday, let me know. Thanks! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmeister ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 11:53:44 -0400 Subject: [PRR] New Activity on Cumberland Valley Branch From: Jerry Britton Back around December I reported being over by LEMO, where the Cumberland Valley Branch crossed the Northern Central Branch at grade. The Northern Central tracks are long since gone, as are the CV tracks curving south onto the NCRy as well as the CV tracks across the bridge into Harrisburg. Amtrak has a wye in Harrisburg, with the stub end extending slightly onto the CV bridge, but not very far. The City of Harrisburg has been trying to build a dam for years, using the CV bridge as its base. It was my understanding that the city bought the bridge from Conrail early on and is the current owner, though that may be inaccurate. Anyway, in December, I reported that it looked like the entire length of the bridge had been reballasted. Yesterday I was at the site again. NS crews were actively relocating power lines from old vine-covered power poles to NEW power poles. What's going on here? Is the bridge being reactivated? NS currently runs eastbound traffic on the Lurgan Line over the Reading Bridge, then swings trains on a horrendous curve into Harrisburg, over the Rockville Bridge, and back into Enola. Using the CV bridge would provide a must smoother curve into Harrisburg, and also allows access directly into Enola from the south. Question is, where are they (or planning to) get trains off the Lurgan line onto the CV line west of LEMO? I believe the two lines both went through/near Shippensburg. Anything going on there? Final possibility: could be related to the greater Harrisburg lite commuter rail project. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gas Electric/Timonium Show. Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 00:21:03 -0500 Doug and Bruce:- It (the Bachmann doodlebug) is not Quite that bad. It is a "typical" Electro-Motive Corp., design as built by St. Louis Car Co. in that it is the blend of individual features of several different EMC cars. Unfortunately, PRR's doodlebugs were built by J. G. Brill, a good old Philadelphia company! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F Smith" To: "Doug Day" Cc: Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gas Electric/Timonium Show. > Doug, > > Yes, the PRR owned a number of classes of gas electric and oil electric > cars. Unfortuantely, the "model" produced by Botchman is a freelanced > creation of their imaginations and represents no known prototype from any > road or manufacturer. It ain't just not Pennsy, its not anything! The > only available models of PRR "doodlebugs" are brass and there are a number > of them (representing the fairly wide range of classes). The PRR was > never as big a user of these cars as many other railroads, seemingly > prefering the flexibility of a smaller H, E or G class steamer with a > couple of cars to the fixed asset of a motorcar. > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > On Fri, 30 Mar 2001, Doug Day wrote: > > > Did our beloved PRR own these. I thought I saw something that looked like a > > Doodlebug once in a PRR photo. I have one (Bachmann Doodlebug) lettered for > > the NYC (yuck!) and would like to re-do it for the PRR. Would need > > lettering/numbering/interior info also. > > > > As a side item; is anybody doing Timonium next weekend. > > > > Doug > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 03:47:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] block signals Hey list, which color had the block signal poles: black or dark gray? I hope that the Pennsy engineers stopped when they indicated stop because in Belgium they don't. Last Tuesday a empty passenger MU train ignored the red light and proceded 8 kilometres against 70 KPM on the wrong track towards another MU train with 80 passengers, all efforts to stop the trains came to late so they crashed, the first wagon of the loaded MU made a salto and landed on top of the second wagon, the first wagon of the empty train was standing almost vertically in the air. 8 people were killed and 11 were injured. This was the second wreck in 5 days (two freight trains)and the third (two MOW trains)in a month with trains ignoring red lights. Keep it safe, Geoffrey __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 10:45:57 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Equipment changes From: "William J. Ayers" List, At crew change points across the system, engines and cabin cars were changed along with the crews. At some time after the war, this practice stopped. Just when did it stop and what were the reasons for it? Was it to consolidate routine maintenance and downgrade many smaller facilities as a cost cutting measure? TIA Bill Ayers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 13:41:31 -0400 From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] New Activity on Cumberland Valley Branch --On Sunday, April 01, 2001 11:53:44 AM -0400 Jerry Britton wrote: > Back around December I reported being over by LEMO, where the Cumberland > Valley Branch crossed the Northern Central Branch at grade. > > The Northern Central tracks are long since gone, as are the CV tracks > curving south onto the NCRy as well as the CV tracks across the bridge > into Harrisburg. Amtrak has a wye in Harrisburg, with the stub end > extending slightly onto the CV bridge, but not very far. > > The City of Harrisburg has been trying to build a dam for years, using the > CV bridge as its base. It was my understanding that the city bought the > bridge from Conrail early on and is the current owner, though that may be > inaccurate. Isn't this going to be how the E-town to (currently Mechanicsburg, eventually Carlisle) light right line is going to cross the river? > Final possibility: could be related to the greater Harrisburg lite > commuter rail project. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 01 Apr 2001 17:05:52 -0400 Subject: [PRR] TANGENT - Change In ListServ Settings From: Jerry Britton In wading through the recent listserv problem, it was uncovered that someone (I and many others know who) on the Conrail-Talk list posted a 1.2MB file. How can this be? Aren't enclosures blocked? They sure are. This 1.2MB was actually in the BODY of the e-mail!!! After receiving some direct abuse from some of the subscribers, the offending poster offered his apology. Enough said on that. However, I have now set a 32K limit on messages, in addition to disallowing (true) enclosures as well as MIME format. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmeister ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 19:59:48 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gas Electric/Timonium Show. In a message dated 4/1/01 3:26:50 PM Central Daylight Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: << It is a "typical" Electro-Motive Corp., design as built by St. Louis Car Co. in that it is the blend of individual features of several different EMC cars. >> Although I no longer drink "hard" liquor, the only blend I ever liked was Canadian Club or VO ! I prefer my models to be a prototype of something even if it is not my favorite. But I have another problem with Bachmann's choice. Why in God's name didn't they pick a double-ended prototype. Or do they only consider the Christmas tree oval market? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 21:03:45 EDT Subject: [PRR] Doodlebugs In a message dated 4/1/01 8:08:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bobspf@aol.com writes: << But I have another problem with Bachmann's choice. Why in God's name didn't they pick a double-ended prototype. >> Then there's the MTH scenario in O-27. Their "DOODLEBUG" has twin motors and can be used to pull a healthy freight train. After they took some grief over this, and with customers demanding something to pull, they issued a version with "0" motors - and suggested that they be run back to back - anybody ever see or hear tell of this? To their credit, they used a sound chip without "Radio chatter" after they were responsible for much merriment when their model "The General" radioed the tower - "over" Seriously, you sometimes wonder if anybody double checks, or even thinks some things through. I saw a model of an NYC Green Auto loader Saturday - 1960's paint job: loaded with (supposedly) new 1949 Mercurys - right next to it was a model loaded with 1968 Camaros, which would have been appropriate. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 21:50:34 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gas Electric/Timonium Show. In a message dated 4/1/2001 4:26:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: > Unfortunately, > PRR's doodlebugs were built by J. G. Brill, a good old Philadelphia company! > So good a Philadelphia company, that a tower (and now a Amtrak CP) was/is named after the factory site (of which only a concrete frame, and the ramp down onto the PRR line remains...was Brill also served by the B&O from the other side of its plant??). Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] Relaid Rail Date: Sun, 1 Apr 2001 22:17:47 -0400 << The solution was to swap the rails between the inner and the outer positions yielding good rail heads. >> Pennsy did this, regularly, on the famous curve below Galitzen ========== Its call transposing. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 08:40:05 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gas Electric/Timonium Show. From: John Sheets That CR "Brill" CP comes from Brill Tower on the PRR Phila - Wash main. Don;t believe that the Beano served the plant. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 08:46:01 -0500 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gas Electric/Timonium Show. Gregg Mahlkov said: >It (the Bachmann doodlebug) is not Quite that bad. It is a "typical" >Electro-Motive Corp., design as built by St. Louis Car Co. in that it is the >blend of individual features of several different EMC cars. Unfortunately, >PRR's doodlebugs were built by J. G. Brill, a good old Philadelphia company! Well, beggining to differ Gregg, but it is that bad...Botchman made a nearly state-of-art model, with nice details, seperate grabs, an interior, etc, and it isn't even suitable as a model of any one EMC car. The very least they could have done was accurately modeled a prototype EMC. After all, we know they can model prototypes - just look at their heavyweights (requisite PRR content )...so why on earth did they chose to produce a fantasy model? (which they admit was originally conceived on a paper napkin) Frankly, its a company without a clue...Their "sins" outnumber their winners, even with respect to PRR...amongst the many...producing the K4 with a 110P70 tender (OK, so even our beloved Bowser is clueless with respect to tenders), and REFUSING (even when asked repeatedly) to market the trucks under the PRR heavyweights seperately (boy do I wish I could re-equip my ECW P-70s with Botchman trucks). Well, 'nuff said, I'll don the asbestos now Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 06:44:50 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Geographic name server Many months ago I commented on the Geographic Name Server operated by the Geological Survey. It became more useful a year or so ago when the USGS linked their site to Terraserver. That is, once you've put in a place name, and the USGS server has found at least one instance of that name, you're offered a choice of viewing: 1. A USGS topographic map 2. A USGS aerial photo 3. A Census Bureau outline map 4. An EPA watershed map Recently, USGS moved things around. The current URL for this service is: http://geonames.usgs.gov/gnisform.html I've found it useful, hope you do. The USGS seems to know some place names that Terraserver doesn't. That is, I've put in a place name for the search engine at Terraserver, gotten "No find'em"; went to GNIS, put in the same name and it found it, and then allowed me to link to Terraserver to see the map Terraserver couldn't find. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gas Electric/Timonium Show. Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 10:30:31 -0400 Bruce:- I model in N scale, where their heavyweights have NO protoype whatsoever! I had hoped that they would follow through in N with the PRR cars macde in HO. I bought a PRR doodlebug cheap from BLW and can't use it as it is too long and strikes scenery nothing else hits. If you think it's bad, you ought to see the one I cobbled together from a Rapido FP9, a Lima RPO combine, and Kato-Concor "shortie" sideframes. That was done around 1970. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." To: Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 9:46 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Gas Electric/Timonium Show. > Gregg Mahlkov said: > > >It (the Bachmann doodlebug) is not Quite that bad. It is a "typical" > >Electro-Motive Corp., design as built by St. Louis Car Co. in that it is the > >blend of individual features of several different EMC cars. Unfortunately, > >PRR's doodlebugs were built by J. G. Brill, a good old Philadelphia company! > > Well, beggining to differ Gregg, but it is that bad...Botchman made a > nearly state-of-art model, with nice details, seperate grabs, an interior, > etc, and it isn't even suitable as a model of any one EMC car. The very > least they could have done was accurately modeled a prototype EMC. After > all, we know they can model prototypes - just look at their heavyweights > (requisite PRR content )...so why on earth did they chose to produce a > fantasy model? (which they admit was originally conceived on a paper > napkin) Frankly, its a company without a clue...Their "sins" outnumber > their winners, even with respect to PRR...amongst the many...producing the > K4 with a 110P70 tender (OK, so even our beloved Bowser is clueless with > respect to tenders), and REFUSING (even when asked repeatedly) to market > the trucks under the PRR heavyweights seperately (boy do I wish I could > re-equip my ECW P-70s with Botchman trucks). > > Well, 'nuff said, I'll don the asbestos now > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 07:47:32 -0700 Subject: Re: [PRR] N Scale Prototypes, was PRR Gas Electric/Timonium Show. From: "Doug and Marianne" Greg wrote: > I model in N scale, where their heavyweights have NO protoype whatsoever! This is not quite true - the Lima/Model Power heavyweight coach and combine are accurate PRR prototypes for an early P70 coach and PBM70 coach/baggage/mail. The Rivarossi heavyweight pullman is accurate for a Pullman 12-1 sleeping car, of which many operated on the PRR. Doug Nelson. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] N Scale Prototypes, was PRR Gas Electric/Timonium Show. Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 11:20:13 -0400 Doug Nelson: I was referring ONLY to the Bachmann cars in reply to Bruce's post about the HO Bachmann cars!!!!! Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug and Marianne" To: "Gregg Mahlkov" ; ; Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 10:47 AM Subject: Re: [PRR] N Scale Prototypes, was PRR Gas Electric/Timonium Show. > Greg wrote: > > > I model in N scale, where their heavyweights have NO protoype whatsoever! > > This is not quite true - the Lima/Model Power heavyweight coach and combine > are accurate PRR prototypes for an early P70 coach and PBM70 > coach/baggage/mail. The Rivarossi heavyweight pullman is accurate for a > Pullman 12-1 sleeping car, of which many operated on the PRR. > > Doug Nelson. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 15:06:08 -0700 From: James Stob Subject: [PRR] PRR Kings Pattern Dining Car Silver Greetings from sunny Florida, I am looking for a four or five place setting of the Kings Pattern silverware with the Keystone logo on the handle of each piece. Made by both International Silver and Reed & Barton. Anyone know where I can find this. E-Bay only now and then has part of a place setting. Also looking for the PRR Dining Car cookbook and serving instructions. Thanks, Jim Stob Palm Beach Gardens, FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 12:44:24 -0700 Subject: [PRR] N Scale PRR B60b Baggage Car Announcement From: "Doug and Marianne" Hell Gate Models New Product Announcement: Web: http://users.cwnet.com/schlund/HellGate/headend.htm To order direct, send and email message to: hellgatemodels@yahoo.com Hell Gate Models is pleased to present our first new N scale product: Pennsylvania Railroad B60b baggage and express cars. The kits are cast resin (one-piece body and separate underframe) and come in two versions, a standard version and a messenger-equipped version with roof vents. The kits include correct PRR 2D-P5 trucks by East Wind Manufacturing and separate brake wheel. The one-piece cast body makes for very simple assembly. The modeler adds decals (Microscale # 60-891) couplers (Microtrains #1023 or 1025), stirrups (Gold Medal Models #160-56), and grabirons and diaphragms (if desired). The B60b was a uniquely PRR car with its balloon roof and porthole windows, but it was probably the most traveled railroad-owned passenger train car of the pre-Amtrak era. The B60b was regularly seen all across the vast PRR system. It also traveled throughout the United States as the Pennsy B60b's were regularly seen on western trains such as the Santa Fe's Fast Mail, on trains to Texas and Florida, and on New England trains to Boston, Maine, and Montreal. This is the first time this car has been produced in N Scale, and it will fill a large void for modelers of passenger trains of the PRR and other railroads. Hell Gate Models is a joint effort between Doug Nelson and Claus Schlund, both PRR N scale modelers living in the San Francisco area. Kits will be introduced for sale at the Pennsylvania Railroad Technical and Historical Society annual meeting, May 3-5 at the Radisson Penn Harris in Camp Hill, Pennsylvania. Kits will be available by mail after the meeting. Price: $26. for the standard version $28 for the messenger-equipped version Add $5 for shipping. California residents add 7% sales tax. To order direct, send and email message to: hellgatemodels@yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 16:15:47 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: [PRR] Vehicle colors Does anyone have a clue what color PRR road vehicles -- like MOW trucks and tractors used for pulling trailers-- were painted in the early 1950s? Were there any markings on the doors, or what ever? [perhaps 5 gold pinstripes?] All the trucks I ever seen are in the background of B&W photos. Jim McDaniel, lost down in Delmarva, with lots of primer gray vehicles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 15:36:32 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] N Scale PRR B60b Baggage Car Announcement Jerry, You and Dennis Rockwell must be ecstatic! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 15:40:11 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-FAX] Vehicle colors The color guide to PRR Freight & Passenger Equip shows a foto of a PRR gon carrying a PRR service truck (pre van days). Its painted in a freight car red color. Of course, its on it way to the scrap yard (the truck, not the gon) and the paint has certainly "weathered". Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== "James L. McDaniel" wrote: > > Does anyone have a clue what color PRR road vehicles -- like MOW trucks > and tractors used for pulling trailers-- were painted in the early > 1950s? > Were there any markings on the doors, or what ever? [perhaps 5 gold > pinstripes?] All the trucks I ever seen are in the background of B&W > photos. > > Jim McDaniel, lost down in Delmarva, with lots of primer gray vehicles ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 13:48:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] Good books? Thanks for those who helped with the block signal colors! In the mean time I have found some new questions. Is there a good book that covers the other aspects of Pennsy railroading like: cars, special equipment for stations, platforms,... , buildings, uniforms, ... ? Is there also a book in which the Railway Express Agency activities are covered? Thanks, Geoffrey __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 18:04:20 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] New Activity on Cumberland Valley Branch In a message dated 4/1/2001 4:02:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > The City of Harrisburg has been trying to build a dam for years, using the > CV bridge as its base. As a erstwhile civil engineer, I can think of nothing quite so likely to be fiasco, as a dam built using bridge piers as part of the structure. Do you have any references to the construction which was/is intended??? Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 18:04:14 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] block signals In a message dated 4/1/2001 4:35:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, geoff_vandooren@yahoo.com writes: > the first wagon of the loaded MU > made a salto and landed on top of the second wagon "made a salto"? is that an acrobatic operation??? Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] New Activity on Cumberland Valley Branch Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 19:00:35 -0400 I'd second the comments of Derrick and Bruce. From all that I have read, the damn project is dead and the commuter rail is alive and funded. The Lancaster Intell report a week or so ago that Carlisle was a bit miffed at not getting any of the action. The commuter lines will apparently go from Elizabethtown to HBG utilizing the existing Amtrak line, and the Mechanicsburg to HBG section would use the old CV line and bridge. Equipment or operators did not get a mention in the article. My guess is that Amtrak will get the initial node - since they will require equipment that meets their criteria - to operate on the western end of their Harrisburg line. Maybe if we start a letter writing campaign now - we could get the new switch named "CP Lemo"? Cos Wayne S. Betty Cos Communications, Inc. Home Page Rail Road Pages jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: > The City of Harrisburg has been trying to build a dam for years, using the > CV bridge as its base. As a erstwhile civil engineer, I can think of nothing quite so likely to be fiasco, as a dam built using bridge piers as part of the structure. Do you have any references to the construction which was/is intended??? Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Vehicle colors Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 21:40:43 -0400 Jim:- The ones I recall in the mid-1960's when I was with PRR in Baltimore were Tuscan Red or PRR maroon. The ones I rememeber vividly were the fuel trucks used to refuel switch engines around Baltimore rather than have them use what is now the NE Corridor to get to the Orangeville enginehouse. They had a toluidene red and gold keystone on the door. And hazmat placard boards. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "James L. McDaniel" To: "PRR Talk" ; "PRR-FAX" Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 5:15 PM Subject: [PRR] Vehicle colors > Does anyone have a clue what color PRR road vehicles -- like MOW trucks > and tractors used for pulling trailers-- were painted in the early > 1950s? > Were there any markings on the doors, or what ever? [perhaps 5 gold > pinstripes?] All the trucks I ever seen are in the background of B&W > photos. > > Jim McDaniel, lost down in Delmarva, with lots of primer gray vehicles > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 22:11:38 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Vehicle colors In a message dated 4/2/01 3:32:20 PM Central Daylight Time, jlmcdaniel@esva.net writes: << Does anyone have a clue what color PRR road vehicles -- like MOW trucks and tractors used for pulling trailers-- were painted in the early 1950s? >> Don't recall the years covered, but the Keystone had a reasonable size article on the subject. Don't have the issue info handy, but maybe the index on Keystone Crossings would help. Which brings up an issue, not directed at you specifically, Jim, but many of the questions on this list could be eliminated by joining the Society. I realize some of the subjects were several years ago, but ya gotta start sometime! Bob Zoeller Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2001 20:46:08 -0700 From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: [PRR] Amtrak 14014 caboose Hi, There used to be a PRR #?/PC #?/CR #?/AMK/GETY 14014 Class N5 cabin car parked at the Gettysburg, PA, Depot. I'm told this cabin has been gone from the Depot for several years. Rumor says it left a year after the explosion but you know how rumors are! Does anyone know where it went? Also, does anyone know of a source for the Conrail to Amtrak caboose numbers? I wrote the Amtrak Historical Society with this same question on 2 occasions and did not receive an answer either time. Thanks, Roger -- S. Roger Kirkpatrick, 109 So. Madison St., Cortez, CO 81321-3733. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KEMACPRR@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 00:23:42 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] Amtrak 14014 caboose Sure no problem The Amtrak 14014 was the PRR 479701 it was actually a N-5F assigned to the Chesapeake Region in May 1957 equipted with trainphones and assigned to the Edgemoor Delmarva pool #6. It was renumbered to PC # 19017 on 4/29/68 and sold to Amtrak on 9/3/76. ---------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------H ope this helps Ken McCorry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 21:42:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Joseph Andrews Subject: [PRR] Green Frog Video Please forgive cross-posting. I find that I have 2 copies of Green Frog's "Conrail-Middle Division" video. This is a very nice 60 minute video and I consider it to be one of the best I own. If anyone out there has a video, book or HO equipment of approximately equivalent value ($20-$30 range) that they would like to swap for one of copies, please contact me offline at joeandrews1@yahoo.com Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 07:13:30 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Good books? Vic Rosemann has a very good book on the Railway Express Agency. Its a perfect-bound paperback and only costs about $12. It contains a lot of good pictures and info on their RR cars, highway equipment and operations. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Geoffrey Van Dooren wrote: > > Thanks for those who helped with the block signal > colors! > In the mean time I have found some new questions. > Is there a good book that covers the other aspects of > Pennsy railroading like: cars, special equipment for > stations, platforms,... , buildings, uniforms, ... ? > Is there also a book in which the Railway Express > Agency activities are covered? > Thanks, Geoffrey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 08:14:20 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Good books? From: Jerry Britton On 4/3/01 8:13 AM, Andy Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > Vic Rosemann has a very good book on the Railway Express Agency. Its a > perfect-bound paperback and only costs about $12. It contains a lot of > good pictures and info on their RR cars, highway equipment and > operations. > And it just went out of print this month. Highlands Station, the publisher, is sold out. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 08:45:31 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Vehicle colors Well Bob, I do belong to the PRRT&HS, but living in the boonies, it takes many weeks to get info by mail or interlibrary loan --like a back copy of the KEYSTONE. The net and lists like this can get me a quick answer and a point-in-the-right-direction to reliable info. And thanks to all who provided info on the subject. JimMcDaniel, a little less lost in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BNdave1@aol.com Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:54:58 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] New Activity on Cumberland Valley Branch In a message dated 4/2/01 6:43:45 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << > As a erstwhile civil engineer, I can think of nothing quite so likely to be > fiasco, > as a dam built using bridge piers as part of the structure. Do you have any > references to the construction which was/is intended??? > Quite common and used elsewhere...inflatable dam between piers. >> Like where? Were the bridge piers designed to resist the resulting lateral loads (horizontal shear) and to provide an adequate FSOT (factor of safety against overturning)? Please provide locations and approximate ages. I would be very interested to see how this was done. BNDave, PE Structural Engineer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 12:59:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] New Activity on Cumberland Valley Branch From: Jerry Britton On 4/3/01 12:54 PM, BNdave1@aol.com (BNdave1@aol.com) wrote: > << > As a erstwhile civil engineer, I can think of nothing quite so likely to > be >> fiasco, >> as a dam built using bridge piers as part of the structure. Do you have > any >> references to the construction which was/is intended??? >> > Quite common and used elsewhere...inflatable dam between piers. >> > > Like where? Were the bridge piers designed to resist the resulting lateral > loads (horizontal shear) and to provide an adequate FSOT (factor of safety > against overturning)? Please provide locations and approximate ages. I > would be very interested to see how this was done. Over my head. All I can say is years ago, when they were pursuing it, the Harrisburg Patriot News indicated that the technology was in use elsewhere. However, this thread has swayed from our prescribed subject matter (dams, was CV branch) so let's drop it here. Thank you. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, Listmaster ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:31:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] New Activity on Cumberland Valley Branch On Tue, 3 Apr 2001, Jerry Britton wrote: > On 4/3/01 12:54 PM, BNdave1@aol.com (BNdave1@aol.com) wrote: > > > << > As a erstwhile civil engineer, I can think of nothing quite so likely to > > be > >> fiasco, > >> as a dam built using bridge piers as part of the structure. Do you have > > any > >> references to the construction which was/is intended??? > >> > > Quite common and used elsewhere...inflatable dam between piers. >> > > > > Like where? Were the bridge piers designed to resist the resulting lateral > > loads (horizontal shear) and to provide an adequate FSOT (factor of safety > > against overturning)? Please provide locations and approximate ages. I > > would be very interested to see how this was done. > > Over my head. All I can say is years ago, when they were pursuing it, the > Harrisburg Patriot News indicated that the technology was in use elsewhere. Not so much as to fly in the face of "desist" but to provide people who care with off-list venues to seek more information if they so care: -I assume this was Mayor Reed's baby, in which case the long term proposal was to be a permanent dam at the lower end of City Island, not against the bridge, and use it for hydroelectric purposes as well as recreational -But in the meantime there's already a permanent dam, if old, at Dock Street My suggestion if you care further would be to visit www.google.com and search for some combination of: harrisburg "city island" reed inflatable dam "dock street" A quick look reveals several promising hits. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 15:04:33 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Life Life GP9's and C-Liners From: Jerry Britton It's been a bit of a drought on modeling news, so "this just in"... Life Like Proto 2000 has announced a run of EMD GP9 Phase II's. There are three PRR road numbers. Limited run, retail is $100. Reserve at your favorite dealer now! Life Like has also finally announced a run of F-M "C-Liners". There are two PRR A/B sets, with both units powered. Limited run, retail is $130. Reserve at your favorite dealer now! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 15:50:49 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Vehicle colors From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" Chuck Blardone wrote the Keystone article, if I remember correctly, when I was trying to model a PRR stake bed truck. I had to query him on what color the interiors of PRR vehicles was painted. The consensus was that it had a black interior. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: "James L. McDaniel" >To: PRR Talk , PRR-FAX >Subject: [PRR] Vehicle colors >Date: Mon, 02 Apr, 2001, 16:15 > > Does anyone have a clue what color PRR road vehicles -- like MOW trucks > and tractors used for pulling trailers-- were painted in the early > 1950s? > Were there any markings on the doors, or what ever? [perhaps 5 gold > pinstripes?] All the trucks I ever seen are in the background of B&W > photos. > > Jim McDaniel, lost down in Delmarva, with lots of primer gray vehicles > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 08:08:24 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] Re: [FC] new kit Al, While we have your attention, could I put a bug in your ear to consider doing PRR stock cars? I'm thinking of the K7 and K8s. The ever popular K9 and K11s, which Bowser has produced (from their X31 molds no doubt) are too modern for the many model RRers of the transition era. They appeared in the late 50's - long after stem was gone. The K7 and K8s were quite distinctive. The K8 had Pratt truss sides, unlike most car's Howe truss sides and the K7 with its "warren truss" sides was unique. There are no good stand ins for them in HO. westerfield wrote: > > Dave - I keep trying to get to it but things keep getting in the way. - Al > when the Vanderbilt hoppers will be ready to go? I really want > > one now that I know what they look like (there was a scratchbuilt > > O-scale model at the C&OHS meet last weekend). > > > > David Thompson > > > > > > > > -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 09:19:11 -0400 Subject: [PRR] BANKS to VIEW Track Charts From: Jerry Britton Anyone have track charts for the Middle Division, specifically BANKS to VIEW? I am trying to establish mileposts for the signal bridges...and where the distant signals were for VIEW and BANKS (vs. block signals). Helpful if it is mid-1950's era. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-eGroups-From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) From: mittner@webtv.net Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 18:53:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRR Cabin ? Lists, Quick dumb question that needs a Quick correct answer. On an N5 or N5b Class Cabin circa 1950's, did the End Doors have Knobs or Latch Handles? I know an N5c had a Latch Handles. TIA....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> Make good on the promise you made at graduation to keep in touch. Classmates.com has over 14 million registered high school alumni--chances are you'll find your friends! http://us.click.yahoo.com/03IJGA/DMUCAA/4ihDAA/D5QVlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 18:53:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] PRR Caboose ? Lists, Quick dumb question that needs a Quick correct answer. On an N5 or N5b Class Cabin circa 1950's, did the End Doors have Knobs or Latch Handles? I know an N5c had a Latch Handles. TIA....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 19:35:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [PRR] New PRR Terms Hello list. Well the answers are in from the PRR man and we did good ! Some question about " Drop " explanation would only work on a hill and " Scoop" meant the water scoop on a tender. At least as he knew the term. Here is the scoop on"Gunny" GUNNY is nickname for a drifter brakeman with a bag over his back that use to ride cars over the hump, etc. It was a very dangerous. He sent some more PRR terms to chew on. He also mentioned he worked the Enola yards at one time. If any list members have any questions about that part of the line I'd be glad to pass them on. NO 1 What is DROP called when its done on the level???? No 2 drill--- No 3 plug--- No 4 frog---Part of a switch. No 5 CLIMBERS--- No 6 chalk--- No 7 cut list--- No 8 temp stick--- No 9in the hole--- No 10 F4--- 10-4?? No 11 points--- movable part of switch No 12 apron--- No 12b? cut lever chain--- No 13 ALERATOR--- No 14 hanging bull rope--- NO 15 gauntlet--- Remember some of these are nick names or slang for something.----Mark L---------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 19:45:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Caboose ? I can look if PRR cabin car #477375 is the right class. found it over in NJ.on a service call. still has original paint and shadow keystone. I belive the doors were still on. Can any one ID this caboose. Also there was a PRR gas car there but I didn't right down the #. I was interested in the caboose.------Mark L-------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: [PRR] Set Up Running--An Opinion Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 22:57:16 -0500 SPF's-- If you don't have the book "Set Up Running" by John W. Orr, get it! This belongs on the shelf of every serious Pennsy fan. In case you haven't heard of it, it chronicles the career of a PRR engineman who worked for the Company from 1904 to 1949, written by the man's son. I am currently half way thru, and it is difficult to put down. It is a unique look at running the railroad 24 hours a day, 365 days a year--from the cab of steam locomotives. With his career spent in central Pennsylvania, this book is a must for any one modeling the Bald Eagle Branch, the Elmira Branch, or the Williamsport (later Susquehanna) Division. There is even a narrative of a typical run on Train 510 (Altoona to Harrisburg via Williamsport) picking up milk tank cars! And Elmira Branchers--did you know the grade north out of Roaring Branch was 3%--with a double S curve?!! Truly the land of Decapods. Interestingly, the subject of the book was chosen by the Engineering Department to do several informal over the road evaluations of different locomotives. He really loved the L1, and his report on one of the initial Decs was scathing, although he liked the later ones better. He also thought the tenders we think of as normal were much too small, severely limiting the efficient movement of trains. No surprise there. The book is written in an easygoing style with only a few b/w photos. Now if only I could smell the coal smoke, hot oil, and hot brake shoes........ Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 23:38:49 -0700 From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: [PRR] Class N-5? Hi, > > I can look if PRR cabin car #477375 is the right class. > The Ringoes, NJ, cabin car should be the correct Class. Roger -- S. Roger Kirkpatrick, 109 So. Madison St., Cortez, CO 81321-3733. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 10:14:21 EDT From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] keystone Reprints My Keystone reprints arrived yesterday for those who are looking for them. They certainly weren't up to the present standard but considering the original source are very well done. There is no color and the material appears to have been written on a typewriter. Most of the articles are about rolling stock and engines so it is valuable resource material including one entire issue on the X29 box car. Most are about 8-10 pages in length. One interesting fact I had not heard before is that the bells on the E44's came from steam engines. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 09:39:24 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] keystone Reprints The early Keystones were just like that - typewritten on non-glossy paper with a few B&W fotos. The fault is not in the reprinting. The virtue is in how far the Keystone has come. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== NDBPRR@aol.com wrote: > > My Keystone reprints arrived yesterday for those who are looking for them. They certainly weren't up to the present standard but considering the original source are very well done. There is no color and the material appears to have been written on a typewriter. Most of the articles are about rolling stock and engines so it is valuable resource material including one entire issue on the X29 box car. Most are about 8-10 pages in length. One interesting fact I had not heard before is that the bells on the E44's came from steam engines. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 11:10:25 -0400 From: Dennis Rockwell Subject: [PRR] Re: N Scale PRR B60b Baggage Car Announcement [PRR] Andy Miller wrote on 01/4/2 8:36 pm: >Jerry, > >You and Dennis Rockwell >must be ecstatic! I've already put in my order! Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 11:43:30 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Model Railroad Stoneworks Web Site From: Jerry Britton For those who may be interested, Model Railroad Stoneworks now has a web site online at http://www.modelrailroadstoneworks.com They make superb quality stone bridges based on PRR and Erie prototypes. Their current offerings are: PRR 30-Degree Angle Skewed Stone Arch Bridge -- HO scale PRR Semi-Circular High Stone Arch Viaduct -- HO and N scale PRR Rockville Bridge -- HO and N scale Erie Starrucca Viaduct -- HO scale You can regularly find MRS at the Timonium shows, plus they always attend the PRRT&HS convention. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 12:10:52 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] keystone Reprints In a message dated 4/5/01 9:23:01 AM Central Daylight Time, NDBPRR@aol.com writes: << it is valuable resource material including one entire issue on the X29 box car. >> Including some very good photos and info about the K8 stockcar. The reproduction job and paper quality on these reprints is very good, considering the original sources. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 12:48:02 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Life Life GP9's and C-Liners From: Jerry Britton On 4/5/01 12:44 PM, Jeff Warner (jwarner@ptd.net) wrote: > I think I have this straight, but if Jerry or someone else could verify it, > I'd appreciate it... The P2K GP9's are HO scale and P1K C-Liner A/B sets are > N scale? I thought LL already announced B unit only C-Liners in PRR in HO > scale (HO scale already has the A units from last year). > Jeff: I appreciate your need for third party confirmation. HO C-Liner A units shipped last year, with B units coming this May. The new announcement is N scale AB sets. The GP's are HO scale. As for third party confirmation, the Walthers site (New Products/Announced in April) lists the items I previously announced. However, they mistakenly have the N scale C-Liners under Freight Cars rather than Locomotives!!! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Caliciotti Jr." Subject: [PRR] Gas-electric Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 17:49:50 -0000 In the 1980's there was a Pennsy doodlebug being operated around Flemington or Ringoes NJ. Anyone know if it is still used or where it is? Sam _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 14:49:51 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Coal Dear List, Please forgive me for maybe being abit ignorant or for maybe digging up (no punn intended!) a subject that may have been beat to death already (compared to most on the list I'm still a newbie). . . but here we go. In so many words; where does the coal the PRR hauls come from ? I ask this because as I page through my colection of Pennsy books (and I think I've got just about all of them) I don't see any (or very few) pictures of coal tipples with PRR hoppers spoted under them. When I look through books on the C&O, N&W, Virginia etc. thats all I see. . . massive coal tipples loading home road hoppers and gons. In fact both C&O and N&W have whole books devoted to just that. Am I to belive all the coal moved by the PRR came from the lake ports? True I've seen countless pictures of tons of coal being off loaded by those wonderful hullets into PRR hoppers. . . but I find it had to believe all the coal the PRR moved came from this source. I ask this question as I want to model a tipple scene on my railroad, and would like to represent as close as possible a true Pennsy scene. Thanks in advance for any and all help on this mather. Jon S. PRRT&HS #3079 FRRM of PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 15:06:15 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal From: Jerry Britton On 4/5/01 2:49 PM, JONS6755@aol.com (JONS6755@aol.com) wrote: > Please forgive me for maybe being abit ignorant or for maybe digging > up (no punn intended!) a subject that may have been beat to death already > (compared to most on the list I'm still a newbie). . . but here we > go. We all gotta start somewhere! > In so many words; where does the coal the PRR hauls come from ? The ground! Actually, all over....even crossing paths! There were lots of mines east of Williamsport and Shamikin. A lot of this coal went south to Baltimore or north to Sodus Point via the Northern Central Branch/Elmira Branch. Then there were a ton of coal fields north and west of Tyrone on the Middle Division. Some of this went east on the Bald Eagle Branch to the Northern Central Branch/Elmira Branch to Sodus Point. Some probably just went east on the main line. Then there are tons more coal fields west and north of Cresson, at the height of the Allegheny Mountains. Coal coming off branches from Cresson flowed both east and west. Much to Pittsburgh for steel one might assume. > Am I to belive all the coal moved by the PRR came from the lake ports? True > I've seen countless pictures of tons of coal being off loaded by those > wonderful hullets into PRR hoppers. . . but I find it had to believe all the > coal the PRR moved came from this source. The Hullets you refer to handled iron ore. On the great lakes they received ore from the midwest. At Philadelphia they received ore from, I think, Venezuela. Hope this helps! ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:34:54 -0400 Jerry and Jon: Don't forget there were huge coal deposits south of the Panhandle line in eastern Ohio, especially around Cadiz (PRR even had a Manager, Coal Sales, in Cadiz to call on the mines). A great deal of this coal moved to Ashtabula Harbor for Great Lakes movement. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Britton" To: ; Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal > On 4/5/01 2:49 PM, JONS6755@aol.com (JONS6755@aol.com) wrote: > > > Please forgive me for maybe being abit ignorant or for maybe digging > > up (no punn intended!) a subject that may have been beat to death already > > (compared to most on the list I'm still a newbie). . . but here we > > go. > > We all gotta start somewhere! > > > In so many words; where does the coal the PRR hauls come from ? > > The ground! > > Actually, all over....even crossing paths! There were lots of mines east of > Williamsport and Shamikin. A lot of this coal went south to Baltimore or > north to Sodus Point via the Northern Central Branch/Elmira Branch. > > Then there were a ton of coal fields north and west of Tyrone on the Middle > Division. Some of this went east on the Bald Eagle Branch to the Northern > Central Branch/Elmira Branch to Sodus Point. Some probably just went east on > the main line. > > Then there are tons more coal fields west and north of Cresson, at the > height of the Allegheny Mountains. Coal coming off branches from Cresson > flowed both east and west. Much to Pittsburgh for steel one might assume. > > > Am I to belive all the coal moved by the PRR came from the lake ports? True > > I've seen countless pictures of tons of coal being off loaded by those > > wonderful hullets into PRR hoppers. . . but I find it had to believe all the > > coal the PRR moved came from this source. > > The Hullets you refer to handled iron ore. On the great lakes they received > ore from the midwest. At Philadelphia they received ore from, I think, > Venezuela. > > Hope this helps! > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:46:54 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal In a message dated 4/5/01 2:23:30 PM Central Daylight Time, JONS6755@aol.com writes: << I ask this because as I page through my colection of Pennsy books (and I think I've got just about all of them) I don't see any (or very few) pictures of coal tipples with PRR hoppers spotted under them. >> Boy, you make a good point. Probably a result of 90% of all published PRR photos being taken on the mainline of the Middle Division or (for electrics) the New York division (just joshing, guys, don't reach for the flame throwers). Considering the number of online coal mines (the Summer, 1981, Pennsy Journal had a 1956 map and 8 pages alphabetical, 8 pages geographical of 600-700 bituminous coal mines on PRR and connecting lines in Pennsylvania and West Virginia), there is a dearth of tipple photos. For the guys that were there, were the mines sticklers for security and hostile to photographers,or just not convenient for Joe Railfan? <> The economics varied by the times, of course, but during a lot of the time period I believe the pattern was export coal, import ore. I have no statistics, just nonscientific observation and reading to back that up. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Renovo Shops Coming Down Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:50:17 -0400 Yesterday a friend and I detoured through Renovo PA on the way home from Altoona. I'm sorry to report that the Pennsylvania Railroad Shops in Renovo are being torn down. The blacksmith shop is gone - just a pile of brick rubble. A good bit of the power house has disappeared since my last visit a couple years ago. Not sure whether it was torn down or fell down, as the rubble has been removed. The demolition crew is working on the Master Mechanic's Office Building, one of the main buildings next to the tracks about mid-complex, and one of the earlier buildings built. They have gutted it and are ready to start demolishing the building itself. I have no idea whether all the buildings are slated for demolition or not. There was a sign proclaiming the site to be the Renovo Industrial Park, and there is a new building in the west end of the former yards - a metal building of about 30,000/40,000 square feet in size. No sign or indication of who might be occupying it. Perhaps it's still under construction and they are finishing the inside. Anyone have any more details? Sad to see such a landmark fall after so many years. I guess our model railroads will have to preserve it for future generations. I'm sure glad I photographed the entire complex inside and out a couple years ago! The demolition crews will have their work cut out for them, as the blacksmith shop was several bricks thick, as are many of the other buildings. Pennsy built them to last! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. & downtown Williamsport WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 15:59:05 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal In a message dated 4/5/01 2:34:47 PM Central Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: << On the great lakes they received ore from the midwest. At Philadelphia they received ore from, I think, Venezuela. >> I used the terms export coal and import ore. I should have clarified, as Jerry indicates, some of the"export" and "import" was to/from other ports on the Great Lakes. Always a little frustrating to me as a modeler of the Chicago Division, because, though I don't know it for sure, I believe the huge mills around Gary, Indiana, got most of their material by boat. Not much excuse for strings of GL, H21, and H25 hoppers. OTOH, great territory for gondolas and there was the bottle train! Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 16:03:32 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal And I forgot to mention all those strings of L&N, C&O, and N&W hoppers that traveled South-North on the Pennsy! (Rick Tipton, you out there? :-)) Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 13:41:34 -0700 (PDT) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal Two things regarding coal: A map, showing Pennsylvania coal fields: http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deputate/minres/bmr/ annualreport99/coal_mine_map.htm (Sorry the URL is so long. It wouldn't fit on one line.) Second, a thought, regarding security: For quite a few years in the late 19th century, Western Pa. "enjoyed" the attentions of an organization called The Coal and Iron Police. It is easy to become emotional on the subject, and as a result I'm not sure who to believe. The term "private army" has been used to describe their operations. To be flip about it, "Were the coal mining companies security conscious? You'd better believe it." All quite legal, though, as the C&I Police were simply "watchmen employed to guard the premises of the several mining and manufacturing companies whose fees support the service". Not that an 1880's era railfan would be likely to have a camera, but by the time the average Joe could afford a camera, there was a long-standing tradition of just not going certain places. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 17:08:06 -0400 From: Steve Hanlon Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal At 03:46 PM 4/5/01 EDT, Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > For the guys that were there, were the mines sticklers for security and hostile to photographers,or just >not convenient for Joe Railfan? what would you rather take pictures of, many many many trains in a few hours or a guy switching out a coal tipple? -steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 17:39:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" A lot of coal came from the Champion mines west of Pittsburgh in the Imperial region. It was loaded in Montour hoppers and sent east. Couple of years ago I ran into a guy at the Galveston RR Museum who told me he saw a lot of Montour hoppers go by on the Pennsy. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ---------- >From: JONS6755@aol.com >To: prr-talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] PRR Coal >Date: Thu, 05 Apr, 2001, 13:49 > > Dear List, > Please forgive me for maybe being abit ignorant or for maybe digging > up (no punn intended!) a subject that may have been beat to death already > (compared to most on the list I'm still a newbie). . . but here we > go. > In so many words; where does the coal the PRR hauls come from ? > I ask this because as I page through my colection of Pennsy books > (and I think I've got just about all of them) I don't see any (or very few) > pictures of coal tipples with PRR hoppers spoted under them. When I look > through books on the C&O, N&W, Virginia etc. thats all I see. . . massive > coal tipples loading home road hoppers and gons. In fact both > C&O and N&W have whole books devoted to just that. > Am I to belive all the coal moved by the PRR came from the lake ports? True > I've seen countless pictures of tons of coal being off loaded by those > wonderful hullets into PRR hoppers. . . but I find it had to believe all the > coal the PRR moved came from this source. I ask this question as I want to > model a tipple scene on my railroad, and would like to represent as close as > possible a true Pennsy scene. > Thanks in advance for any and all help on this mather. > Jon S. > PRRT&HS #3079 > FRRM of PA > > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 17:57:46 EDT From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] PRR heavy duty flats I just found a web site run by a person by the name of Tim Daspit that specializes in heavy duty flats and Schnabel cars. The URL is http://www.garlic.com/~tomd/ It shows pictures of many schnabel cars and has a heavy duty flat page with a couple of pictures of the PRR car on four eight wheel trucks that was written up in the Keystone a couple of issues ago. Apparently the car is now in Altoona at the riailroad museum. There is a picture of it plus a picture of a model of the well hole flat the PRR had. All in all a very graphically intense and interesting site. Norm Bell ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 19:06:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] Gas-electric Yes the PRR gas car I saw is in Ringoes NJ. Same place as the PRR cabin car #477375 is. Its an N5 something. It has square windows. Anyone know??? ----------Mark L-------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 19:47:38 -0500 From: John W Rosenbauer Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal Link to a map of H.C.Frick mines in Westmoreland and Fayette counties. As near as I can tell none of these mines are working but they were from the 1890s to 1940s. Many if not most were served by the PRR. http://theoldminer.virtualave.net/frick1.html John W Rosenbauer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Gas-electric Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 21:27:10 -0400 List: I do recall that the motor car was at one time owned by Nelson Bowers, who was the Communications and Signals Engineer for the Chesapeake Region when I worked in Baltimore for the PRR. He later became affiliated with the Black River & Western and that is no doubt how the car ended up in Ringoes. This was all around 30 years ago. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Lehman" To: "Sam Caliciotti Jr." ; Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:06 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Gas-electric > Yes the PRR gas car I saw is in Ringoes NJ. Same place as the PRR > cabin car #477375 is. Its an N5 something. It has square windows. Anyone > know??? > ----------Mark L-------------------------- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 21:25:51 -0500 From: Kevin Trichtinger Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Coal "Donald E. Harper, Jr" wrote: > > A lot of coal came from the Champion mines west of Pittsburgh in the > Imperial region. It was loaded in Montour hoppers and sent east. Couple of > years ago I ran into a guy at the Galveston RR Museum who told me he saw a > lot of Montour hoppers go by on the Pennsy. I remember seeing long strings of PRR and Montour hoppers on the Chartiers Branch (which was actually the Washington Secondary by that time) headed to and from the interchange at Hills Station. There were still a few coal mines operating on the PRR line as well, though all were closed by 1970. The last of the Montour mines closed in the early 80s. Every once in a while, you'd see Montour SW-9 power running through, too. The Montour weighed at least some of its coal at Scully. As for the original issue, the Pennsy carried a lot of coal from the area south and west of Pittsburgh. The Monongahela Division, the Burgettstown Branch and the Chartiers Branch were all major originators of coal tonnage. In the 1890s, there were eight coal mines on the PRR Chartiers Branch in the two miles of the line in Scott Township alone. In the 1920s, there were 25 mines on the Chartiers and B&M Branches, plus interchange coal from the Montour, the Pittsburgh, Chartiers & Youghiogheny and the Pittsburgh & West Virginia. The few photos of these mines which exist mostly feature the mine as a backdrop to another scene. Photography was a rare and expensive pursuit at the turn of the last century, and the people who lived around here were miners and mill workers, unlikely to have the time or the money for such pursuits. Anyway, most of the tipples in the Chartiers Valley were at least partially visible from a distance, but were well guarded, with little to no public access. With the topography of the area, and the concentration of industrial property along the tracks, there was little in the way of good photo possibilities. I think that holds true of the PRR in Pittsburgh in general. Peace Kevin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 23:15:42 -0500 From: bobp@tsc.com (Bob Poortinga) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal "Bob Zoeller" writes: > Always a little frustrating to me as a modeler of the > Chicago Division, because, though I don't know it for sure, I believe the > huge mills around Gary, Indiana, got most of their material by boat. The mills in Gary/East Chicago received most of their ore (and another important ingredient in iron making, limestone) by boat. However, little, if any, coal was shipped was boat. Coal for USS Gary Works was hauled by the PRR on both the PFW&C (delivered to the EJ&E at Clarke yard) and the Pan Handle (delivered to the EJ&E at Hartsdale) with the bulk going via Hartsdale. Other railroads hauling coal to Gary Works included the B&O via Curtis yard, the Nickel Plate (N&W) via Van Loon, the C&O via Griffith, the Monon via Dyer, the NYC via Pine yard and via Hartsdale (CCC&StL Danville branch), the C&EI via Chicago Heights, the IC via Mattoon, and the GM&O via Joliet. This coal originated in various locales such as southern Illinois, southern Indiana, and eastern Kentucky. It is also quite possilbe that coal from southeastern Ohio, western Pennsylvania, and West Virginia found its way to Gary. Let's not forget that prior to 1930, most of the demand for coal from the anthracite regions of eastern Pennsylvania was for heating in the urban areas of the eastern seaboard. -- Bob Poortinga (mailto:bobp@tsc.com) Bloomington, Indiana US ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 01:19:12 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] REA Good books? In a message dated 4/3/01 8:19:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jerry@pennsyrr.com writes: Re: REA Book- << And it just went out of print this month. Highlands Station, the publisher, is sold out. >> They had been selling seconds, direct, at a reduced price - through an add in Model Railroading Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bud Kaiser" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Caboose ? Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 08:46:19 -0400 Gary, I purchased a great photo of an N5b cabin at the last Phila. Chapter PRRT&HS meeting that shows the door knob clearly. The photo is dated 1941 and shows an end view of the cabin in great detail. There is also an overhead that shows the metal roofwalk of the N5b. The car number, as best as I can tell from the overhead, is 477635, although the "6" could be an "8". The cabin looks very clean, almost new, or recently outshopped. Train phones had not been installed. I have not done any other research on the car. Bud Kaiser > Gary wrote > > Quick dumb question that needs a Quick correct answer. On an N5 or > N5b Class Cabin circa 1950's, did the End Doors have Knobs or Latch > Handles? I know an N5c had a Latch Handles. TIA....Gary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JONS6755@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 09:14:04 EDT Subject: [PRR] PRR Coal Part II Thanks to all who have replied to my posting regarding PRR coal and mine tipples. I guess the overall answer is that there are no photos out there of these tipples. . . which is a shame. If anyone knows of, or comes across a source of pictures of tipples served by the Pennsy please get back at me. Again, thanks for the help. Jon S. PRRT&HS #3079 FRRM of PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 09:20:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Caboose ? Bud, Thanks for that note. Evidently the N5b class was built with regular door knobs than switched over to latch handles. Another thing you mentioned. You said this photo you have is of about 1941? This N5b has a metal roof walk at this early date? Again I thaught this was a feature added later. Were these not built with wood board roof walks? We need a Caboose expert to add to this.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com & http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/prr_loco_index.html and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 09:42:46 -0400 Subject: [PRR] Northern Central Chapter Meeting This Sunday - 4/8 From: Jerry Britton Sorry for the late notice... This Sunday the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS will meet at 1:30 p.m. at the Yorktowne Hotel in York, PA. This meeting will be dedicated to advances in model railroad control: Bill Lewis will be demonstrating wireless control of traditional DC equipment. Yours truly will be demonstrating the capabilities of DCC, in general terms. The actual equipment to be used will be the new Digitrax Chief II Radio Equipped system. On display will be the new Life Like N scale FA1/FB1 and Athearn Genesis HO scale F7A/F7B. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Joe Witcofsky" Subject: Re: [PRR] Gas-electric Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 10:29:15 -0400 List: During the early '70's, the 4666 was owned by the late Hugh Jenkins, a former Reading Co. engineer, and noted railfan/ collector. Under his ownership, the car was based at New Hope, Pa. (Pre Jimmy Mc Hugh New Hope and Ivyland). I had the pleasure of operating this car between new Hope and Buckingham during this period, as a member of the 717th. Railway Operating Bn., which at this time had an arrangement with the NH&I to use the railroad for training one weekend per month. I was not aware of Nelson Bowers ownership, but all of Hugh Jenkins' assets were liquidated after his death. The car was at Ringoes in 1986. Joe Witcofsky ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BlockTruck@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 10:36:09 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] MP54 paint color I have seen MP-54's with the steps Tuscan inside and out, and I have seen them with the steps with Tuscan inside and DGLE or black outside. I say DGLE or black because once you got a little road dust on them, it was hard to tell. JT Roberts Gen. Foreman, Powelton Ave. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Coal Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 11:28:03 -0400 Regarding coal and iron ore at the lakes. PRR coal went to the lakes to be dumped and loaded on to lake boats. The U.S. is not an importer of coal. Iron ore came from lake boats (a.k.a. ex-lake ore) and was loaded in cars for shipment to the various iron and steel mills. Some ex-lake ore was temporarily placed in ground storage at the dock for subsequent reshipment to the mills. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 11:51:49 -0400 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal Part II Greetings to Jon and the List: The 1942 Grif Teller PRR calendar painting "Partners in National Defense" shows the Berwind-White Coal Mining Co. tipple at St. Michael, Pa. The original research photo he took, and used as the basis for the painting, appears in the book Crossroads of Commerce, p. 112. Visible in the photo are an H-class engine with Lines West tender, an N6b cabin, and a Berwind-White twin hopper. While Grif took some artistic license in moving the four-track main line down the South Fork Branch a few miles, he painted the mine buildings almost exactly as they appear in the photo. You can probably take the coloration of buildings in the painting as being reasonably close to the original. Hope this helps. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@worldnet.att.net Titus 3:5 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 11:55:07 -0700 From: Roger Kirkpatrick Subject: [PRR] RDG 92891, RR, PA Hi, I recently saw a photo of RDG 92891 caboose, which I don't list anywhere, along with PRR 477707 at Railroad, PA, which I list in New Freedom, PA. Does anyone know if the #92891 is still in Railroad or, if not, where it is? How about PRR 477707? Thanks, Roger -- S. Roger Kirkpatrick, 109 So. Madison St., Cortez, CO 81321-3733. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 15:08:35 EDT Subject: [PRR] C & P Docks Had an "off list" inquiry about the Cleveland coal dock - I told the guy what I remembered, but he asked about a site with photos - Any help? Some of the questions he asked indicated, to me, that he had the coal and ore operations "mixed" Quite an interesting mix "outbound" coal east of the Cuyahoga River "Inbound" ore on the west side (Whiskey Island) which stopped being an Island when the Railroads filled in the old channell, an underground salt mine - with lots of covered hopper traffic in the mix - with the Pennsy operations all on the "wrong" side of the NYC (LS&MS) - and using trackage rights - over bridge # 1 - in the middle. If you ever wanted to run PRR freights on the same tracks as the 20th Century Limited - this was the right spot! Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] C & P Docks Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 16:42:47 -0400 Dick: Didn't the 20th Century Limited use the CUT tracks through town and not the LS&MS tracks? Gregg Mahlkov (worked for PRR in Cleveland in 1964) ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 3:08 PM Subject: [PRR] C & P Docks > Had an "off list" inquiry about the Cleveland coal dock - I told the guy what > I remembered, but he asked about a site with photos - Any help? > Some of the questions he asked indicated, to me, that he had the coal and ore > operations "mixed" > Quite an interesting mix "outbound" coal east of the Cuyahoga River > "Inbound" ore on the west side (Whiskey Island) which stopped being an Island > when the Railroads filled in the old channell, an underground salt mine - > with lots of covered hopper traffic in the mix - with the Pennsy operations > all on the "wrong" side of the NYC (LS&MS) - and using trackage rights - over > bridge # 1 - in the middle. If you ever wanted to run PRR freights on the > same tracks as the 20th Century Limited - this was the right spot! > Dick Ross > Cleveland > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2001 16:44:09 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Clement Car on the move From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" A UP duo, #1618 and #2159, showed up at the Galveston Railroad Museum at 1330 this afternoon, coupled to the PRR Clement Car (#7507) and hauled it off. The car has been sold back to the Clement family, specifically James Clement, grandson of PRR President Martin W. Clement, who plans on having it moved to Kingsville and restored. Don Harper Texas A&M Marine Lab 5007 Avenue U Galveston, TX 77551 409/740-4540 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] C & P Docks Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 18:17:37 -0400 There's a b&w photo of the docks as part of a 1957 directors tour booklet on my site... http://prr.railfan.net/documents/DirectorsTour.html It's on page 17 of the booklet. Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of > VVA249@aol.com > Sent: Friday, April 06, 2001 3:09 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] C & P Docks > > > Had an "off list" inquiry about the Cleveland coal dock - I told > the guy what > I remembered, but he asked about a site with photos - Any help? > Some of the questions he asked indicated, to me, that he had the > coal and ore > operations "mixed" > Quite an interesting mix "outbound" coal east of the Cuyahoga River > "Inbound" ore on the west side (Whiskey Island) which stopped > being an Island > when the Railroads filled in the old channell, an underground salt mine - > with lots of covered hopper traffic in the mix - with the Pennsy > operations > all on the "wrong" side of the NYC (LS&MS) - and using trackage > rights - over > bridge # 1 - in the middle. If you ever wanted to run PRR freights on the > same tracks as the 20th Century Limited - this was the right spot! > Dick Ross > Cleveland > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 18:28:22 EDT Subject: [PRR] NYC 20th Century and the C & P Docks In a message dated 4/6/01 4:58:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: << Didn't the 20th Century Limited use the CUT tracks through town and not the LS&MS tracks? >> Good question - I'm not 100% certain. It didn't stop in Cleveland and the CUT would have required two loco changes (Steam/electric & back) - I am almost certain that it bypassed the terminal - but it may have used the "short Line" across the south end of town - I've had people claim that they had or had seen photos of the Dreyfuss train in Lakewood on the NKP ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC 20th Century and the C & P Docks Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 22:08:07 -0400 << Didn't the 20th Century Limited use the CUT tracks through town and not the LS&MS tracks? >> Good question - I'm not 100% certain. I also don't recall for certain but believe the 20th Century Limited did NOT make a Cleveland stop. I DO recall stopping myself one evening on a back street in Berea, OH as the 20th Century was easing past the eastbound home signal at BEREA interlocking. A local resident came out of his house and inquired as to whether something was wrong. I thanked him for his concern and told him that absolutely nothing was wrong--that I was just watching the 20th Century Limited. Poor fellow walked away with a rather odd expression... obviously he lived too close the forest to enjoy the trees! Terry Stuart ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 23:27:24 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC 20th Century in Cleveland In a message dated 4/6/2001 6:23:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, tstuart@forcomm.net writes: << I also don't recall for certain but believe the 20th Century Limited did NOT make a Cleveland stop. >> The December 1958 Official Guide shows neither Trains 25 nor 26 (the east and westbound Centuries) stopping in Cleveland. Just the sort of oversight one would expect from a lesser road like the NYC. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Coal Part II Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 22:45:33 -0500 Jon--In Don Ball's "The Pennsylvania Railroad 1940's - 1950's" on page 114 there are two shots of the Glen Burn Colliery in Shamokin. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 00:41:44 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC 20th Century and the C & P Docks I inquired of my NYC fan friends tonight - all confirmed that the steam era "Century" used the LS&MS tracks through Cleveland along the Lakeshore. They added that the train may have swapped (steam) locos at Collinwood, east of Cleveland - but did not stop in Cleveland until coaches were added - very late in the life of the train. Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Caboose ? Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 00:06:13 -0500 Hi Gary--According to Ed Martin, writing in Mainline Modeler December 1995 in "Detailing a Pennsy N5/N5b Cabin Car", the N5b was built new with the metal roofwalk. The N5c also had the metal roofwalk when new; these were built starting in March 1942 so a 1941 date on the N5b photo is within reason. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 07:58:33 -0500 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC 20th Century in Cleveland It was not an oversight, By not having to stop in Cleveland they saved enough time on the "Water Level" to just match the PRR's march across the mountains!!! LeeRainey@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 4/6/2001 6:23:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, > tstuart@forcomm.net writes: > > << I also don't recall for certain but believe the 20th Century Limited did > NOT > make a Cleveland stop. >> > > The December 1958 Official Guide shows neither Trains 25 nor 26 (the east and > westbound Centuries) stopping in Cleveland. Just the sort of oversight one > would expect from a lesser road like the NYC. > > Lee Rainey > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 07:27:21 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: [PRR] Walthers PD Box Cars I am looking for about six of the Walthers (ex T-M) plug door box cars - either kit or built. Road name is not important and undec. kits would be great. If you have any of these cars you would like to dispose of, please contact me directly. Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 09:22:59 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC 20th Century in Cleveland In a message dated 4/7/01 8:03:19 AM Eastern Daylight Time, v-scarpitti@worldnet.att.net writes: << By not having to stop in Cleveland they saved enough time on the "Water Level" to just match the PRR's march across the mountains!!! >> Although I live here - I don't think the "non-stop" was ever an issue. Not only would the train would have passed in the middle of the night, The train predated the Union Terminal; there would have been a major addition to the mileage to divert via the CUT (Cleveland Union Terminal) and, as stated, a double loco swap; steam to electric and back to steam. Only today does Amtrack stop on the lakefront (near the Cleveland Browns Stadium) on the LS&MS line: the Terminal in now an "Updcale" shopping experience and running trains through there would be quite costly - even if it's still physically possible Dick Ross ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 09:25:51 EDT Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Caboose ? In a message dated 4/7/01 1:15:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, steveh@dotstar.net writes: << a 1941 date on the N5b photo is within reason. >> Ada Ohio has an N-5b on display # 477777, build date 10/41 Dick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: RE: [PRR] C&P Docks Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 14:19:30 -0400 Rob, et al., Nice production. However, the photo on page 17 (see below) is the Whiskey Island ore dock (which is even stated in the photo caption) and not the coal dock as stated in your table of contents. Al ===================== Subject: RE: [PRR] C & P Docks From: "Rob Schoenberg" <> Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2001 18:17:37 -0400 There's a b&w photo of the docks as part of a 1957 directors tour booklet on my site... http://prr.railfan.net/documents/DirectorsTour.html It's on page 17 of the booklet. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 21:14:30 -0400 From: David Pfeiffer Subject: [PRR] Bachman K4 I noticed in the Caboose Hobbies ad in the May RMC that they mention a new supply of Bachmann K4's have "new tooling". Anyone know what the new tooling is? These are advertised to be pre-war versions, so it could be the tooling of parts to make them pre-war in appearance. Dave Pfeiffer ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2001 22:18:43 EDT Subject: [PRR] AS-16 help needed I am detailing an S scale AS-16 (aka Alco Rs-3). I have two questions. 1. Are there any published drawings of the trainphone antenna for this class? I have good pictures -- probably good enough -- but would be more comfortable with drawings. 2. I find many photos of the front of the long hood, but none of the end of the short hood. The front of the long hood has grab irons leading to the top of the carbody. Were there similar grabs on the short hood? Many thanks for any help. Lee Rainey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 07 Apr 2001 22:16:44 -0400 From: "Michael A. Hmel" Subject: Re: [PRR] NYC 20th Century in Cleveland > would expect from a lesser road like the NYC Can't agree more . To leave out a stop in Cleveland weather or not it saved time is stupid . NYC was too interested in the race , they should have been interested in the result . That was there oversight ! Mah ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2001 09:22:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [PRR] Bachman K4 From: Jerry Britton On 4/7/01 9:14 PM, David Pfeiffer at (dpfeiffr@popmail.voicenet.com) wrote: > I noticed in the Caboose Hobbies ad in the May RMC that they mention a new > supply of Bachmann K4's have "new tooling". Anyone know what the new > tooling is? These are advertised to be pre-war versions, so it could be > the tooling of parts to make them pre