Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 07:53:37 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: [PRR] Former John Hall HO decals If you are still looking for some of the HO Pennsy or Reading decal sets formally offered by John Hall, we have just received a shipment from Dunlap's Depot. Please contact us directly off-list for descriptive listing of available sets and pricing. Frank Brua Park Varieties Southgate, MI ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 08:28:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Smashboards Dave wonders, >It would make an interesting list to see how many (smashboards) are left. There seem to be a number in New Jersey; I wonder if there was a state law requiring them, or something. Remember there have been drawbridge disasters, most notably the CNJ commuter train that ran off the Newark Bay drawbridge into the drink, back in the fifties. Could the state have required smashboards in response? They are still in service on some, and maybe all, tracks at Dock (Passaic River movable bridge at Newark) and at Hack (Hackensack River movable bridge on Passaic & Harsimus branch). They are also in service on the PATH tracks at these bridges. (And there is still (dead) catenary hanging over the PATH tracks at the Hackensack!) I'll keep my eyes open next time through; not sure about Portal, for example, and the P&H movable bridge Passaic River (Conrail calls it Karny, did PRR? or as mariners call it the Point No Point bridge) is hard to get to or spot! Also not sure whether other roads in the area use, or used, smashboards. What about the NY&LB, for example? A number of movable bridges down there. John Bobsin Basking Ridge, NJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 08:47:28 EST From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Ebay listings Does anybody know where the model train listings went on E bay? First they isolated them in a new category and yesterday the category disappeared from the listing when I pulled it up. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 08:49:12 EST From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Smashboards John & folks, I can't really give you much of an answer on Jersey's laws, but I do recall seeing photos in RMC in the 1960 era showing PRSL Baldwins waiting at smashboards in South Jersey. Seems this was on one of their secondary lines near the Delaware, but who they'd have been crossing down there I can't say. Might even have been two PRSL lines, as they had quite a tangle of industrial branchs down there south of Camden. Seems I've seen other references to smashboards as well; perhaps you might check with Bill Strassner? He used to be an operator down in those parts. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 08:59:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Ebay listings From: Jerry Britton On 2/1/01 8:47 AM, NDBPRR@aol.com (NDBPRR@aol.com) wrote: > Does anybody know where the model train listings went on E bay? First they > isolated them in a new category and yesterday the category disappeared from > the listing when I pulled it up. > Last month they announced that "at some point" they would be moving to a new "Hobbies & Crafts" area. I just checked, and it is active at http://pages.ebay.com/catindex/hobbies.html --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:19:55 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Smashboards From: Fred G Rea There is one in Uhrichsville OH at the location of the late UHRICH tower. It is where RJ Corman(nee B&O) crosses the Ohio Central (nee PRR-Panhandle). The interesting thing about it is, when I found it last year, it was SMASHED! A tangled hunk of bright yellow pipe! The OC line sees fairly regular traffic (once or twice a day I think) but the RJC line sees almost none. The track end a mile or so South of there now. Fred Rea Columbus OH ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:26:10 EST Subject: [PRR] Earl's Wilmington Station Guys - For all of you who would like to get a look at what building one of the Wilmington Station should look like when assembled and semi-painted (it's not complete as of yet) stop by our tables at Springfield this weekend. As always we don't know where we'll be until we get there but search us out. This will be worth it! We just received Earl's model that he is working on and has graciously allowed us to use for display. All I can say is WOWW! I will try to get pictures and post them on the website next week for those of you who can't make it. You guys are going to miss a real treat. I happen to know that Earl attended some painting clinics in Florida. Do I detect a little Greg Martin influence here? Dayna Trainstuff LLC ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Smashboards Date: Thu, 1 Feb 101 09:21:38 -0500 (EST) bobsin@nac.net scribit: > > Dave wonders, > > There seem to be a number in New Jersey; I wonder if there was a > state law requiring them, or something. Remember there have > been drawbridge disasters, most notably the CNJ commuter train > that ran off the Newark Bay drawbridge into the drink, back in the > fifties. Could the state have required smashboards in response? I don't know about laws, but smashboards were a very frequent (dare I call it "standard"?) practice. > They are still in service on some, and maybe all, tracks at Dock > (Passaic River movable bridge at Newark) and at Hack > (Hackensack River movable bridge on Passaic & Harsimus > branch). They are also in service on the PATH tracks at these > bridges. (And there is still (dead) catenary hanging over the PATH > tracks at the Hackensack!) I made a trip through them parts, hitting potentially closing Conrail towers, in 1995 or 1996. I don't recall seeing a movable bridge without smashboards. As to PRR years, you will find all smashboards shown on the interlocking diagrams I have scanned and put up on the web. They are (for now) at http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk but will soon be moving to a new home at http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk For North Jersey, see the main line and branches pages for "Philadelphia to New York". For South Jersey, see the PRSL page. > I'll keep my eyes open next time through; not sure about Portal, for > example, and the P&H movable bridge Passaic River (Conrail calls > it Karny, did PRR? or as mariners call it the Point No Point bridge) > is hard to get to or spot! Actually, not that hard. N.J. 7, as I recall? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Wye Min Radius Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:37:13 -0500 My PRR Renovo Division will have 28" min radius on mainline tracks. How small can I go on min radius for wye tracks? My largest engines are Bowser I-1, M-1, and L-1. Can I go to 24"? Smaller? Even 18"? TIA Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. & downtown Williamsport PA WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 10:53:42 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Wye Min Radius From: Jerry Britton On 2/1/01 9:37 AM, Bill Bigler (wbigler@stny.rr.com) wrote: > My PRR Renovo Division will have 28" min radius on mainline tracks. How > small can I go on min radius for wye tracks? My largest engines are Bowser > I-1, M-1, and L-1. Can I go to 24"? Smaller? Even 18"? TIA > I definitely would not go below 22" for aesthetic reasons, but mechanically that may actually be too small. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:00:38 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [ldsig][PRR] Min. Radius for Wye Tracks Bill Bigler wrote: >My PRR Renovo Division will have 28" min radius on mainline tracks. How >small can I go on min radius for wye tracks? My largest engines are Bowser >I-1, M-1, and L-1. Can I go to 24"? Smaller? Even 18"? TIA Ouch - hate to do this Bill...but have you tested your locomotives on that radius? I have a 28" radius test track and both Sunset and Railworks I1s routinely short out the front wheel. My M1 works, but...it ain't pretty. My L1 is probably fine down to around 24". Now, you can substitute plastic wheels, as insulated metal wheels will continue to short (on one side) however, plastic (Delrin) wheels have been banned from from my rails. I purchased a full circle of Botchman EZ track at 33" radius and the I-1 look soooo much better that I am going to that as my minimum radius. Of course, that is before I get my Bowser T-1 rebuilt with a protypic rigid frame (an ongoing project ) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 11:09:24 EST From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Wye Min Radius Bill, I don't know what brand of turnouts you're using, but usually wye switchs are designated by number (eg #4 wye,etc). The nice thing about a wye switch is that the angle is split between the diverging routes, so in effect a #4 is in the order of a #8 turnout. Seems to me the Atlas wyes I've fiddled with could almost plop right into a 30" radius curve, but that's going from memory, and perhaps they were a bit larger radius than that. But if you're hand laying, your frog angle could be more customized, obviously. I don't see any reason those Bowser engines wouldn't take a 24", or even less. Most engines will take that radius with no operating problems, though it may look a little tight visually.I have a friend whose layout features 24" radius on the main line, and he runs any non-brass steam, including some Bowsers, easily, along with full length passenger cars. You might get away with 22" with no problems in a pinch, certainly up to the 2-10-0. Come to think of it, didn't the BOw! ser catalog state that any of it 's steamers will take an 18"? Good luck, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] Number Plates Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:40:56 -0600 What was the background color for the Steam Loco's number plates? Was it plain black or DGLE? Or was it a lighter shade like Forrest green? Thanx in advance for any replies. J. Hildenbrand ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: [PRR] [AD] Stewart PRR VO-1000 Arrives! Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 11:58:13 -0500 The Stewart Models PRR VO-1000 has finally been received! Three models are available, #5913, #5919 and decorated with no number. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S Hobbies http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 (732) 271-0800 Voice (732) 271-0805 Fax ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:09:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Number Plates J Hildenbrand, Round Freight Number Plates were Black background with buff numerals. Later years it looks like some were painted a brighter yellow. Keystone plates were Toulidine Red with either Gold or Dulux Numerals, depending on the era. Bennett Levin can give you the paint numbers if needed. I am still waiting Bennett (Hint) .........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 12:38:30 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [ldsig][PRR] Min. Radius for Wye Tracks Before you get any mechanical problems you are likely to get a short between the engine and tender unless you have coupled the tender so far aft as to cause the fireman's union to strike! One solution I have used to solve this problem is to electrically isolate the tender body from the tender frame. For example on a Bowser loco replace the screw holding the frame to the shell with nylon screws and put Kadee fiber washers between the shell and the frame. I usually drill and tap a new hole in the frame to attach the wire to the loco to. Now the shell no longer has any electrical bias, and if it grazes the edge of the cab no short will occur! Using this technique I have been able to recouple my Bowser engines at almost a prototype distance. Although I do not operate on 24" r turns, the technique ought to improve the operation for any radius. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: > > Bill Bigler wrote: > > >My PRR Renovo Division will have 28" min radius on mainline tracks. How > >small can I go on min radius for wye tracks? My largest engines are Bowser > >I-1, M-1, and L-1. Can I go to 24"? Smaller? Even 18"? TIA > > Ouch - hate to do this Bill...but have you tested your locomotives on that > radius? I have a 28" radius test track and both Sunset and Railworks I1s > routinely short out the front wheel. My M1 works, but...it ain't pretty. > My L1 is probably fine down to around 24". Now, you can substitute plastic > wheels, as insulated metal wheels will continue to short (on one side) > however, plastic (Delrin) wheels have been banned from from my rails. I > purchased a full circle of Botchman EZ track at 33" radius and the I-1 look > soooo much better that I am going to that as my minimum radius. Of course, > that is before I get my Bowser T-1 rebuilt with a protypic rigid frame (an > ongoing project ) > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Smashboards Date: Thu, 1 Feb 101 12:38:30 -0500 (EST) Fred G Rea scribit: > > There is one in Uhrichsville OH at the location of the late UHRICH tower. > It is where RJ Corman(nee B&O) crosses the Ohio Central (nee > PRR-Panhandle). The interesting thing about it is, when I found it last > year, it was SMASHED! A tangled hunk of bright yellow pipe! The OC line > sees fairly regular traffic (once or twice a day I think) but the RJC > line sees almost none. The track end a mile or so South of there now. So why does RJC bother? Why not just sell to the OC? ObPrr: The Panhandle main is in a topographically interesting location. Much better lay of the land than the Fort Wayne, IMHO. But terribly remote. Once leaving the Ohio valley, no population centers to speak of until Columbus. (And recall that Columbus' growth is really rather recent.) -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Wye Min Radius Date: Thu, 1 Feb 101 12:39:50 -0500 (EST) Bill Bigler scribit: > > My PRR Renovo Division will have 28" min radius on mainline tracks. How > small can I go on min radius for wye tracks? My largest engines are Bowser > I-1, M-1, and L-1. Can I go to 24"? Smaller? Even 18"? TIA Oh, heck, go for 15"! Just remember that *prototype* wye tracks were famous for derailing equipment! :-)))) -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 14:54:56 -0500 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Smashboards They were still on the NYLB as of last year and I recall them there as early as the 1940's. Are they on the NEC at locations in Maryland where there are moveable bridges or are the bridges not moveable any longer? Bennett Mark Bej wrote: > > bobsin@nac.net scribit: > > > > Dave wonders, > > > > There seem to be a number in New Jersey; I wonder if there was a > > state law requiring them, or something. Remember there have > > been drawbridge disasters, most notably the CNJ commuter train > > that ran off the Newark Bay drawbridge into the drink, back in the > > fifties. Could the state have required smashboards in response? > > I don't know about laws, but smashboards were a very frequent (dare I > call it "standard"?) practice. > > > They are still in service on some, and maybe all, tracks at Dock > > (Passaic River movable bridge at Newark) and at Hack > > (Hackensack River movable bridge on Passaic & Harsimus > > branch). They are also in service on the PATH tracks at these > > bridges. (And there is still (dead) catenary hanging over the PATH > > tracks at the Hackensack!) > > I made a trip through them parts, hitting potentially closing Conrail > towers, in 1995 or 1996. I don't recall seeing a movable bridge without > smashboards. > > As to PRR years, you will find all smashboards shown on the > interlocking diagrams I have scanned and put up on the web. > They are (for now) at > http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk > but will soon be moving to a new home at > http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk > > For North Jersey, see the main line and branches pages for > "Philadelphia to New York". For South Jersey, see the PRSL > page. > > > I'll keep my eyes open next time through; not sure about Portal, for > > example, and the P&H movable bridge Passaic River (Conrail calls > > it Karny, did PRR? or as mariners call it the Point No Point bridge) > > is hard to get to or spot! > > Actually, not that hard. N.J. 7, as I recall? > > -- > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 15:35:20 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Smashboards Bennett said the smashboards are still in place on the NY&LB. Any specifics? Offhand I remember movable bridges at the Raritan River, Morgan, Oceanport, Shark River, and Manasquan; all of these bridges should still be in place, except possibly Oceanport. And I bet somebody will remind me of one or two more. Do all of these still have smashboards? And what about the Trenton-Camden line, now being rebuilt for the "light rail" diesel line? There must be a few draws there; are there smashboards and will they survive the reconstruction? Oh yes, go way back, there used to be a draw across the canal on the Princeton Branch, no? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:21:14 -0500 (EST) From: chaslett@cse.l-3com.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Smashboards I can report on one location along the new Trenton-Camden line. The movable bridge (swing, I believe) across the Rancocas River is being replaced by a permanent rail bridge at an elevation of about 24' above high tide. The right of way was ripped up about 1/4 to 1/2 mile in each direction to provide the grade. Carl Haslett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] Smashboards Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 21:21:43 -0000 I remember there were smashboards at the Paulsboro Moveable Bridge on the Penn's Grove Line in Paulsboro NJ many years ago. When I visited the bridge the southern SB had been smashed through and the board was lying on the ground. Had I been a better railfan back then I would have taken it. I recently checked on the progress of the Delanco Bridge on the new Light Rail line. Both home signal/smashboard combinations have been removes along w/ the track on either side of the bridge. The Caution Only distant signals are still in place and I photographed them both. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] Wye Min Radius Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 19:18:48 -0500 Group, I ahve run my Bowser M1 on 22" radius it works. Looks kinda funny but it works Sam >From: Jerry Britton >To: Bill Bigler , >Subject: Re: [PRR] Wye Min Radius >Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 10:53:42 -0500 > >On 2/1/01 9:37 AM, Bill Bigler (wbigler@stny.rr.com) wrote: > > > My PRR Renovo Division will have 28" min radius on mainline tracks. How > > small can I go on min radius for wye tracks? My largest engines are >Bowser > > I-1, M-1, and L-1. Can I go to 24"? Smaller? Even 18"? TIA > > >I definitely would not go below 22" for aesthetic reasons, but mechanically >that may actually be too small. >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com >Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 19:57:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Re: [PRR] Wye Min Radius Jerry: Please unsubscribe me from this list endeimling@mindspring.com I have change my ISP and no longer have access to send mail. Sorry for the bandwidth. Gene Deimling Sam Vastano wrote: > Group, I ahve run my Bowser M1 on 22" radius it works. Looks kinda funny but it works Sam >From: Jerry Britton >To: Bill Bigler , >Subject: Re: [PRR] Wye Min Radius >Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 10:53:42 -0500 > >On 2/1/01 9:37 AM, Bill Bigler (wbigler@stny.rr.com) wrote: > > > My PRR Renovo Division will have 28" min radius on mainline tracks. How > > small can I go on min radius for wye tracks? My largest engines are >Bowser > > I-1, M-1, and L-1. Can I go to 24"? Smaller? Even 18"? TIA > > >I definitely would not go below 22" for aesthetic reasons, but mechanically >that may actually be too small. >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com >Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:21:30 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Smashboards On Thu, 1 Feb 101, Mark Bej wrote: > The Panhandle main is in a topographically interesting location. Much better > lay of the land than the Fort Wayne, IMHO. But terribly remote. Once leaving > the Ohio valley, no population centers to speak of until Columbus. (And recall > that Columbus' growth is really rather recent.) Indeed, my trip in September bore this out; some parts of the line can't be paralleled other than by foot, or with a 4 wheel drive vehicle (and presumably then only by trespassing; i neither had a 4 wheel drive vehicle nor was particularly interested in tresspassing) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: [PRR] [AD] P1K C-Liner B Units & P2K Phase I GP-7 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:21:43 -0500 Life Like officially announced the Proto-1000 Powered C-Liner B Unit. PRR road numbers will be 9448B and 9493B. Other roads include Milwaukee Road and NYC. Delivery is scheduled for May. Also for May delivery is the Proto-2000 Phase I GP-7. PRR road numbers include 8797, 8804 and 8799. Other roads include Santa Fe, ACL, C&O, CB&Q, Erie, MoPac, Southern and Undecorated. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S Hobbies http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 (732) 271-0800 Voice (732) 271-0805 Fax ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Wye Min Radius Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:46:10 -0500 Note that I'm only going to use this wye min radius for an off-mainline wye, so it won't be used that much - it's more to represent the wye that was there in my model than for operational purposes. I will have reversing loops at both ends of the railroad for turning equipment. Thanks for the replies. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. & downtown Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Vastano" To: ; ; Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 7:18 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Wye Min Radius > Group, > > I ahve run my Bowser M1 on 22" radius it works. Looks kinda funny but it > works > > Sam > > > > >From: Jerry Britton > >To: Bill Bigler , > >Subject: Re: [PRR] Wye Min Radius > >Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 10:53:42 -0500 > > > >On 2/1/01 9:37 AM, Bill Bigler (wbigler@stny.rr.com) wrote: > > > > > My PRR Renovo Division will have 28" min radius on mainline tracks. How > > > small can I go on min radius for wye tracks? My largest engines are > >Bowser > > > I-1, M-1, and L-1. Can I go to 24"? Smaller? Even 18"? TIA > > > > >I definitely would not go below 22" for aesthetic reasons, but mechanically > >that may actually be too small. > >--------------------------------------------------------- > >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > >Free serving of railroad web sites > > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:56:13 -0500 Lists: Does anyone know if the PRR used "tell-tales" (a contraption of dangling ropes used to warn trainmen atop cars of an approaching bridge or tunnel) in non-electrified territory? I realized that the only photo I have seen of a PRR locomotive on a track with "tell-tales" was on the NKP's tracks. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 10:59:33 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? From: Jerry Britton On 2/2/01 10:56 AM, Gregg Mahlkov (mahlkov@gtcom.net) wrote: > Does anyone know if the PRR used "tell-tales" (a contraption of dangling > ropes used to warn trainmen atop cars of an approaching bridge or tunnel) in > non-electrified territory? I realized that the only photo I have seen of a > PRR locomotive on a track with "tell-tales" > was on the NKP's tracks. > Strictly from recollection, but I think Alexander's book "On the Main Line" has a photo of Tunnel Hill with tell-tales. The book features photos from the late 1800's. Another source might be "Pennsy Steam and Semaphores". --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:07:53 -0500 Gregg, I believe in the book 57 MOW plans of the PRR there is a drawing of a std. "tell tale" including instructions for placement. I'm at work right now so I can't check. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 12:29:00 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? Last year's Cedco PRR calendar had a foto of a mail and express train with E8s on the front leaving Altoona WB. I could tell that the foto was taken from an overpass; not only from the angle but also from the telltales between the camera and the train. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > Lists: > > Does anyone know if the PRR used "tell-tales" (a contraption of dangling > ropes used to warn trainmen atop cars of an approaching bridge or tunnel) in > non-electrified territory? I realized that the only photo I have seen of a > PRR locomotive on a track with "tell-tales" > was on the NKP's tracks. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 12:27:58 -0500 Fellow PRR'ers.... PRR did NOT have tell tales . According to page 14 in the PRR Standard MOW Plan book, they show Standard Bridge Warning devices. Other railroads had tell tales.... Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S Hobbies http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 (732) 271-0800 Voice (732) 271-0805 Fax ----- Original Message ----- From: Chany, Christopher To: 'Gregg Mahlkov' ; ; Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 11:07 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? > Gregg, > > I believe in the book 57 MOW plans of the PRR there is a drawing of a std. > "tell tale" including instructions for placement. I'm at work right now so > I can't check. > > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 12:45:57 -0500 Dennis:- Do you mean the same as.... "PRR didn't have cabooses, it had cabin cars?" Gregg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" To: "Chany, Christopher" ; "'Gregg Mahlkov'" ; ; Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 12:27 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? > Fellow PRR'ers.... > > PRR did NOT have tell tales . According to page 14 in the PRR Standard > MOW Plan book, they show Standard Bridge Warning devices. Other railroads > had tell tales.... > > Dennis > mailto:dennis@onerrave.com > > D & S Hobbies > http://www.onerrave.com > 34 Main Street > South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 > > (732) 271-0800 Voice > (732) 271-0805 Fax > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chany, Christopher > To: 'Gregg Mahlkov' ; ; > > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 11:07 AM > Subject: RE: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? > > > > Gregg, > > > > I believe in the book 57 MOW plans of the PRR there is a drawing of a std. > > "tell tale" including instructions for placement. I'm at work right now > so > > I can't check. > > > > Chris Chany > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:04:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? They didn't have dispatchers either . . . or (locomotive) engineers . . . Now was there absolutely nothing ever used in (AC) electrified territory? Not that anyone is supposed to be on top of a car! Of course, to be really accurate, I bet they had those things in DC electrified territory! John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:00:17 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] PFtW&C east of Pittsburgh? It runs in my mind that somewhere (maybe Schotter?) I read that early on in the game, PRR relied on "friendly relations" with lines west of Pittsburgh, such as the Ft. Wayne, to secure traffic to and from the west. PRR got more actively into owning/controlling western lines when it was discovered that the Ft. Wayne intended to extend east of Pittsburgh. It may have been that there were surveys in progress when PRR got wind of the move. So far, does this sound familiar, or have I been exposed to a reality distortion field? Some time ago my mother, who lived the first 32 years of her life (starting in 1904) in Vandergrift, Pa, told me that "...at one time there was talk that another RR was going to be built along the other side of the river." "the river" is the Kiskiminitas, "the other side" is the side not occupied by the former Western Penna., later PRR Conemaugh Div. That she spoke of it as if the "talk" had occurred in her presence means nothing, she spoke similarly of events which happened years before her birth. Anyway, when she said that, a bell rang as that thought bumped into the stuff outlined in the first two paragraphs. So the whole question is: Did the Ft. Wayne actually set out to "invade" PRR territory, did the Kiski valley figure in that "invasion", and when was all that going on? Inquiring minds want to know. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:24:58 -0500 Just like how the Pennsy did not have any cabooses, they had "cabin cars" :) Happy Groundhog Day! Ted Andrews P.S.: Did the PRR ever go through Punxsutawney? -----Original Message----- From: Dennis @ D & S Hobbies [mailto:dennis@onerrave.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 12:28 PM To: Chany, Christopher; 'Gregg Mahlkov'; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRR-n_scale@egroups.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? Fellow PRR'ers.... PRR did NOT have tell tales . According to page 14 in the PRR Standard MOW Plan book, they show Standard Bridge Warning devices. Other railroads had tell tales.... Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S Hobbies http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 (732) 271-0800 Voice (732) 271-0805 Fax ----- Original Message ----- From: Chany, Christopher To: 'Gregg Mahlkov' ; ; Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 11:07 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? > Gregg, > > I believe in the book 57 MOW plans of the PRR there is a drawing of a std. > "tell tale" including instructions for placement. I'm at work right now so > I can't check. > > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:33:35 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PFtW&C east of Pittsburgh? In a message dated 02/02/2001 14:08:01 Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > Some time ago my mother, who lived the first 32 years > of her life (starting in 1904) in Vandergrift, Pa, > told me that "...at one time there was talk that > another RR was going to be built along the other side > of the river." "the river" is the Kiskiminitas, "the > other side" is the side not occupied by the former > Western Penna., later PRR Conemaugh Div. > You mother may have been referring to the Sam Rea Line. The PRR planed and surveyed this line as a shorter more water level route than the mainline. There was an article on the Sam Rea Line several years ago in the Keystone. It was intended as a freight only line and as I recall connected to the Allegheny Valley and near Gallitzin. This was not an extension of the Ft Wayne line. In Pittsburgh, the Western Penna was on one bank of the Allegheny and the Allegheny Valley on the other. Both controlled by the PRR. Considering the stranglehold the PRR had on the state legislature, it is doubtful that a competing road would get permission to build along side either bank of the river. They would have had to follow the CSTX (nee B&O) ROW north to of the Butler branch Butler and then head east. At some point they would still need to cross the PRR Allegheny Valley line It would have been possible by agreement with the Pittsburgh & Shamut to get over the PRR since they already had the overhead ROW but then where do you go? It would make a very long circuitous route to Philadelphia and require crossing the Low grade and the P&E several times. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:37:39 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: RE: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? --- "Andrews, Ted" wrote: > P.S.: Did the PRR ever go through Punxsutawney? As a matter of fact, it did. Started at Bellwood on the Middle Div., went more-or-less west-north-westward over Allegheny Mtn., along various stream valleys in the upper watershed of the West Branch of the Susquehanna, crossed other PRR lines as it did so, eventually arrived at McGees Mills, gathered strength for the climb over Canoe Ridge. Descended from same into the valley of Mahoning Creek. Just before entering Punxsutawney, uttered the Elk Run Branch which took off (over a timber trestle which lasted into PC days) to reach Anita (pronounced a-night-a, not a-neat-a) where there were a couple of coal mines. (Actually a bit more complex than that, but I don't have a CT1000 at hand.) Main line continued down Mahoning Creek to Horatio, Pa. , a few miles downstream from Punxsy. I don't know why. Perhaps PRR wished to occupy enough of the Mahoning Creek valley to prevent others from using it to build into PRR territory. As of today, the track(s) in question are gone, but most of the grade is visible, a bridge over Mahoning Creek, and US119's bridge over the grade are still visible. Aren't you glad you asked? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PFtW&C east of Pittsburgh? Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:50:48 -0500 Bob:- It was not the PFtW&C but the Vanderbilts that proposed to build the South Pennsylvania railroad. Grading was begun and tunnels were cut that eventually became the nucleus for the Pennsylvania Turnpike. The PRR had invaded NYC territory by gaining control of the West Shore. J. P. Morgan called the principals aboard his yacht and the "pax pierpontis" was negotiated. The Vanderbilts pulled the same thing on Long Island, only when the ICC wouldn't let them build the railroad, they turned the right-of-way into the first limited access turnpike. The 1904 date, though, sounds like the Gould era, when he controlled the WP, DRGW, MP, WAB and P&WV and was angling for a transcontinental, Remember, the grading lay unused for over half a century before turnpike construction was begun. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 2:00 PM Subject: [PRR] PFtW&C east of Pittsburgh? > It runs in my mind that somewhere (maybe Schotter?) I > read that early on in the game, PRR relied on > "friendly relations" with lines west of Pittsburgh, > such as the Ft. Wayne, to secure traffic to and from > the west. PRR got more actively into > owning/controlling western lines when it was > discovered that the Ft. Wayne intended to extend east > of Pittsburgh. > > It may have been that there were surveys in progress > when PRR got wind of the move. So far, does this sound > familiar, or have I been exposed to a reality > distortion field? > > Some time ago my mother, who lived the first 32 years > of her life (starting in 1904) in Vandergrift, Pa, > told me that "...at one time there was talk that > another RR was going to be built along the other side > of the river." "the river" is the Kiskiminitas, "the > other side" is the side not occupied by the former > Western Penna., later PRR Conemaugh Div. > > That she spoke of it as if the "talk" had occurred in > her presence means nothing, she spoke similarly of > events which happened years before her birth. Anyway, > when she said that, a bell rang as that thought bumped > into the stuff outlined in the first two paragraphs. > > So the whole question is: Did the Ft. Wayne actually > set out to "invade" PRR territory, did the Kiski > valley figure in that "invasion", and when was all > that going on? > > Inquiring minds want to know. > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 17:14:04 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] PFtW&C east of Pittsburgh? Greetings to Bob, Gregg and the List: Actually, it was the Erie that was getting too friendly with the Fort Wayne, which prompted PRR to settle the matter by buying control. As already noted, the South Pennsylvania was the next attempt to parallel the PRR, in 1883-1885. Gregg, you're correct--1904, is when Gould's Wabash-Pittsburgh Terminal, predecessor of Pittsburgh & West Virginia, came across the Monongahela in defiance of PRR's best efforts to block it. W-PT trackage in the city itself makes an interesting study. The tracks that entered the stub-end "Palace Depor" did indeed stop there, but the freight tracks that paralleled them pointed straight toward Gould's dream of bridging the Allegheny on his way east. That gateway to the east did come about, but in different form--via P&WV's extension to Connellsville and a connection with Western Maryland, which occurred quite late in the scheme of things (February 1931). Around 1910, an electric interurban line proposed 10-hour service between Chicago and New York (Seems simple enough--10 hours of travel at 100 mph!). It completed a few miles of track in Indiana and no more. Finally, in the 1920s -- at a time when the federal government was trying to consolidate railroads because they were overbuilt in the first place, not encourage more construction -- an upstart proposal surfaced. A group of investors proposed building a new, freight-only, reasonably level-grade line across Pennsylvania. Their petition went to an ICC hearing, where PRR, Lackawanna, and others testified against it. The ICC denied permission. But what might have been: According to a friend who once gathered a lot of research on the case, the line intended to use Berkshires resembling those of the Erie. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@worldnet.att.net Psalm 22 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 17:26:37 -0500 (EST) From: chaslett@cse.l-3com.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? Yes, there were several sets over the tracks in downtown Altoona. I remember seeing them (probably it was the late 60's) around the 17th St highway bridge and probably the 12th St footbridge. Carl Haslett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PFtW&C east of Pittsburgh? Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 17:53:57 -0500 Dan and list: Re: your paragraph about the 1920's proposal - shades of the Continental Railway Company! (see the map on the Library of Congress pre-1900 map website) Gregg Mahlkov Dan Cupper writes: Finally, in the 1920s -- at a time when the federal government was trying to consolidate railroads because they were overbuilt in the first place, not encourage more construction -- an upstart proposal surfaced. A group of investors proposed building a new, freight-only, reasonably level-grade line across Pennsylvania. Their petition went to an ICC hearing, where PRR, Lackawanna, and others testified against it. The ICC denied permission. But what might have been: According to a friend who once gathered a lot of research on the case, the line intended to use Berkshires resembling those of the Erie. > > > Dan Cupper > cupper@worldnet.att.net > Psalm 22 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 16:04:23 -0500 Bob: Thank you for your detailed reply. I am glad that I asked because maybe the Pennsy influenced past winters. For example, the Punxsutawney Phil may not have seen his shadow due to the sun being blocked by the passing of two I-1's and a string of H-21's! After all, those Hippos working a coal train on grades can get mighty smokey! How knows? Maybe the Pennsy could influnenced an early spring. :) Something to ponder this weekend...... Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana -----Original Message----- From: robert netzlof [mailto:wb3iqe@rocketmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 2:38 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? --- "Andrews, Ted" wrote: > P.S.: Did the PRR ever go through Punxsutawney? As a matter of fact, it did. Started at Bellwood on the Middle Div., went more-or-less west-north-westward over Allegheny Mtn., along various stream valleys in the upper watershed of the West Branch of the Susquehanna, crossed other PRR lines as it did so, eventually arrived at McGees Mills, gathered strength for the climb over Canoe Ridge. Descended from same into the valley of Mahoning Creek. Just before entering Punxsutawney, uttered the Elk Run Branch which took off (over a timber trestle which lasted into PC days) to reach Anita (pronounced a-night-a, not a-neat-a) where there were a couple of coal mines. (Actually a bit more complex than that, but I don't have a CT1000 at hand.) Main line continued down Mahoning Creek to Horatio, Pa. , a few miles downstream from Punxsy. I don't know why. Perhaps PRR wished to occupy enough of the Mahoning Creek valley to prevent others from using it to build into PRR territory. As of today, the track(s) in question are gone, but most of the grade is visible, a bridge over Mahoning Creek, and US119's bridge over the grade are still visible. Aren't you glad you asked? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mike Morrow" Subject: [PRR] Brass info Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 19:54:39 -0500 I think I'm going to take the plunge and purchase my first brass locomotive but I don't know very much about them. I want an I-1sa with a 210F82 tender. Which manufacturers are the best? Do they all run well? For the price I would hope they would run like clocks. How about custom painting or factory painting? Any recommendations? I considered Bowser but I don't think I want to take the time to build one while getting started on a layout too. Thanks in advance. Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 The Elmira Branch 1956-57 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 20:27:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Brass info Mike, If you consider Brass, you got to decide what your budget is. There have been a handful of I-1s imported for you to consider. The old reliable PFM's which were inported circa 1970 are a good start. Has its slight faults but reliable in operation. Prices range from $300.00 $450.00. This has the short trnder though. However, PFM did import seperately the long tender. Expect to pay about $125.00 for that if you can find one. Watch out for the one with the skinny boiler. The cheated by installing the K4 Boiler on one run. You can see the difference hen compared with the correct version. Although the correct version is a bit undersized too. Sunset Models imported one about 9 years ago. This one has the long tender. A little sparce on detail but you can always add what you want. Prices are about the same as a PFM. Key Models imported one in the 1980's. Heard bad stories about that one. It was released with a Kiesel Style Tender. Although not wrong, but not real common. Prices range in the $400 area. Key also released a batch in the 1990's. These are the good ones. Several variations from an Altoona Build without Feedwater Heater to the Baldwin I1sa's. Came both Unpaintd and Factory Painted I believe. Really good looking beasts. Quite Expennsive though. Roughly $700.00 and up. The latest to be released was the Railworks I1's. Again several variations to choose from. Can't comment on them personally but again I think I heard some booboos involved with them too. Came Factory Painted (too green for me) and Brass color. Short Tenders and Long Tendered versions were available. Prices are in the $725.00 too. There you go. That is the run down of Brass I-1's in HO Scale. Personally I have an old PFM I1 updated with Can Motor and a late run Key I1sa. I like them both. .....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] G 26 (again) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 20:47:17 -0500 Hi All, Thank you to all who replied to my previous G26 question. I forgot to ask this at that time. Can anyone provide proof that the G26 was painted in the Shadow Keystone scheme? I have seen Circle Keystone and the plain white Keystone, but not Shadow. I have most of the popular PRR books if you want to reference a book. A side photo would be most appreciated. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Duane C. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Punxsutawney Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 22:29:57 -0500 There is one section of this line that is still in place and is being used. It extends from McGees Mills in Clearfield County near Mahaffey in a northwest direction for about six miles to a coal tipple at Hillman. It is operated by R.J. Corman out of Clearfield. Duane Miller > --- "Andrews, Ted" wrote: > > > > P.S.: Did the PRR ever go through Punxsutawney? > > As a matter of fact, it did. Started at Bellwood on > the Middle Div., went more-or-less west-north-westward > over Allegheny Mtn., along various stream valleys in > the upper watershed of the West Branch of the > Susquehanna, crossed other PRR lines as it did so, > eventually arrived at McGees Mills, gathered strength > for the climb over Canoe Ridge. > > Descended from same into the valley of Mahoning Creek. > Just before entering Punxsutawney, uttered the Elk Run > Branch which took off (over a timber trestle which > lasted into PC days) to reach Anita (pronounced > a-night-a, not a-neat-a) where there were a couple of > coal mines. (Actually a bit more complex than that, > but I don't have a CT1000 at hand.) > > Main line continued down Mahoning Creek to Horatio, > Pa. , a few miles downstream from Punxsy. I don't know > why. Perhaps PRR > wished to occupy enough of the Mahoning Creek valley > to prevent others from using it to build into PRR > territory. > > As of today, the track(s) in question are gone, but > most of the grade is visible, a bridge over Mahoning > Creek, and US119's bridge over the grade are still > visible. > > Aren't you glad you asked? > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 01:51:58 EST Subject: [PRR] Hippos... In a message dated 2/2/01 6:28:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com writes: > All those Hippos working a coal train on grades: were the l-1's ever actually called "Hippos" by the crews - or was this strictly a David P Morgan (Trains magazine) appelation applied, after they were all retired? I believe L-1's were actually called "lolipops" and early GP units "Tackhammers" because of their resemblance to same when seen in side profile. Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Brass info Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 00:48:51 -0600 Mike--Ahhh Hippos....I would like to add just a little to Gary's very complete run down of I1 models. It was the first run of the PFM's which had the undersized boiler. The walkway/feedwater heater configuration on all the PFM's follow the prototype in the 1930's; for your 56-57 time period you will want to do a little work on the left side walkway. Sunset Models also provided some with long tenders. The feedwater heater on these must have been taken from an S scale catalog; however, correct castings can be had from Bowser. The boiler on these matches the prototype in the shape of the taper much more closely than the PFM. Neither of the above will "run like clocks" right out of the box. The PFM's open frame motor is way outdated. Both could benefit from a good idler gearbox and can motor. The 1980's Key with the Kiesel Style Tender might be of interest to you. Although on the prototype that tender in general was rare, as Gary said, it was most widely used on the Elmira Branch, judging by the photos in Caloroso's book. Like Gary, I have a PFM updated with a can motor (and idler gearbox and details). I also have three of the Sunsets, all with the same idler gearbox and motor as the PFM--and lots of details. And on DCC you can put two on the front of the train and two on the rear.... Have fun! Steve Hoxie PRRT&HS #470 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 20:47:17 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] G 26 (again) Hi All, Thank you to all who replied to my previous G26 question. I forgot to ask this at that time. Can anyone provide proof that the G26 was painted in the Shadow Keystone scheme? I have seen Circle Keystone and the plain white Keystone, but not Shadow. I have most of the popular PRR books if you want to reference a book. A side photo would be most appreciated. Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/586931/_/981214009/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Brass info Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:02:23 -0600 In my previous post on this topic I neglected to give the full citation for Bill Caloroso's excellent book. "Pennsylvania Railroad's Elmira Branch", Bill Caloroso, Andover Junction Publications. I recommend it to anyone with PRR interests. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 14:35:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Cherry tree & Dixonville RR Check out this site.PRR & NYC http://community-2.webtv.net/K-4sDRIVER/WestSlopebranchline/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: [PRR] Models for Sale on Ebay Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 11:58:02 +1100 Listers, To help in my move from Australia to Tulsa OK I am selling off some brass models on Ebay. The addresses are as follows:- ALCo Models B1 Electric Switcher http://cgi.ebay.com.au/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=553484288 ALCo Models L6 Electric Locomotive http://cgi.ebay.com.au/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=553531950 ALCo Models MP54 & MPB54 EMU's http://cgi.ebay.com.au/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=553555248 ALCo Models O1c Electric Locomotive http://cgi.ebay.com.au/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=553541128 Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 20:14:50 EST Subject: [PRR] Springfield Train Show Listers - Thanks to all of you who stopped and said hello in Springfield. Looking forward to seeing more of you tomorrow. Sorry I couldn't chat longer but it was a busy day. It's good to see Pennsy is alive and well and living in Massachusetts. ;-) Dayna Trainstuff LLC ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "sam cali" Subject: [PRR] Smashboards Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 02:21:33 -0000 >From: bobsin@nac.net > >Bennett said the smashboards are still in place on the NY&LB. > >Any specifics? Offhand I remember movable bridges at the Raritan >River, Morgan, Oceanport, Shark River, and Manasquan; all of >these bridges should still be in place, except possibly Oceanport. >And I bet somebody will remind me of one or two more. Do all of >these still have smashboards? All of the bridges are still in place (River, Morgan, Oceanport, Shark, and Brielle). There are definitely no smashboards on them, NJ Transit upgraded the all of the signals on the entire line. >And what about the Trenton-Camden line, now being rebuilt for the >"light rail" diesel line? There must be a few draws there; are there >smashboards and will they survive the reconstruction? Oh yes, go >way back, there used to be a draw across the canal on the >Princeton Branch, no? > >John Bobsin > The draw on the Princeton Branch crossed the Delaware and Raritan Canal. Today it is a non-movable bridge, and no smashboards. At Dock interlocking on Amtrak, Passaic River bridge in Newark NJ, there are no smashboards. Though there might be a motor or two left. There are still smashboards on the PATH (the old Hudson and Manhattan) tracks at the same location. Sam _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 22:02:21 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Smashboards In a message dated 2/3/2001 9:30:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, njtsam@hotmail.com writes: > The draw on the Princeton Branch crossed the Delaware and Raritan Canal. > Today it is a non-movable bridge, and no smashboards. Look at: http://www.campus.cua.edu/~05beetham/drcanal/drcanal.htm Maybe a half-day with an Asplundh crew, and a whole lot of WD-40, and that bridge could probably be cranked open. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 19:16:44 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] PFtW&C east of Pittsburgh (restarted) Here's what started the question. From Schotter*, page 78: "FORT WAYNE ROUTE IN DANGER "While the original policy of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company was to reach the traffic of the Northwest and Southwest by assisting in the construction of connecting lines leading to the markets of these sections, and not to lease or control their operations, the rapid growth of the western country and the help received from the Pennsylvania Railroad Company placed a number of the roads traversing that territory in strong financial condition, particularly the Pittsburgh, Ft. Wayne and Chicago Railway Company, which extended from Pittsburgh to Chicago, a distance of 468 miles, and which had pledged its business flowing toward the Atlantic seaboard to the Pennsylvania Railroad. After the Fort Wayne Company had reached this favorable position, its Board of Directors decided that it would be preferable to have an independent line to the East, notwithstanding its obligations to the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, and extensive surveys of the country east of Pittsburgh were made to find a suitable route over which it could send its traffic, which was later followed by large advances to a railway company, whose road it was proposed to use as a part of this rival line. During the progress of these negotiations an effort was made by the Erie Railroad Company to absorb not only the Pittsburgh, Ft. Wayne and Chicago Railway Company, but nearly all of the western connections of the Pennsylvania Railroad, which failed of its purpose only from a misapprehension of the law under which they proposed to carry out their plan." I read this to indicate two independent initiatives; one by the Ft. Wayne to extend east of Pittsburgh, the other by the Erie to acquire the Ft. Wayne. Schotter does not state a date for these activities, but immediately follows the paragraph with another reporting the lease of the Ft. Wayne by PRR July 1, 1869. Burgess and Kennedy** have more to say, but I'll spare you. On page 197, following several paragraphs reporting the FT. Wayne's complaints against PRR, say: "Meantime, the Fort Wayne, for its part, had had surveys made for a rival route to the East from Pittsburgh, and had (it was alleged) made money advances for the construction of a rival route." All this appears to have been rumbling about from 1865 to 1869, and culminated in first, the lease of the Ft. Wayne by PRR and finally, the organization of the Pennsylvania Company. It is certainly true that PRR squelched the Ft. Wayne's plan, whatever it may have been. That aside, it may be that there was no suitable way for the Ft. Wayne to acquire a route east of Pittsburgh. That is, "all the good ones are taken". But it does appear that the Ft. Wayne wanted to, separate from the Erie, the South Penn, and Samuel Rea. Regarding the Erie's attempt to take over the Ft. Wayne et al., I'm curious about "failed ... only from a misapprehension of the law..." Wonder what Schotter is talking about there? * The Growth and Development of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company 1846 - 1926 H. W. Schotter, Assistant Treasurer Philadelphia, Pa, December, 1927 ** Centennial History of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company 1846 - 1946 George H. Burgess and Miles C. Kennedy of Coverdale and Colpitts The Pennsylvania Railroad Company Philadelphia, Pa, 1949 ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "dfc PRR 7002" Subject: Re: [PRR] PFtW&C east of Pittsburgh? Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 09:23:57 -0500 >From: robert netzlof >Some time ago my mother, who lived the first 32 years >of her life (starting in 1904) in Vandergrift, Pa, >told me that "...at one time there was talk that >another RR was going to be built along the other side >of the river." "the river" is the Kiskiminitas, "the >other side" is the side not occupied by the former >Western Penna., later PRR Conemaugh Div. > Bob & the list: It would have been very interesting to see where they planned on putting the railroad. The Pittsburgh & Allegheny Valley Railway Company (eventually purchased by West Penn Railways) was organized in 1901 and by 1903, grading for the roadbed was begun between Leechburg & Apollo (the other side of the Kiskiminetas River from Vandergrift) Work was slowed by an injunction obtained by the PRR in 1904 over a contested right of way, but by 1906 trolleys were running regularly between the two Armstrong County towns. They ran until the Saint Patrick's Day Flood of 1936. The abondoned right of way is still quite visible today in places. There was a spur of the PRR, off the low grade extension, through Apollo, but stopped at the lower end of town. I have a detailed map in my recently published book, The Trolley of Armstrong County, Pennsylvania. www.geocities.com/armconband/book.html DF Cramer _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 16:58:23 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PFtW&C east of Pittsburgh? Well, Dan, it was little more complicated than that. According to Burgess & Kennedy's Centennial History of the PRR Co. 1847-1947, as 1868 began the Fort Wayne, Little Miami and Columbus, Chicago & Indiana Central, major midwest connecting lines in which the PRR had invested heavily during the 1850s and 1860s, were all behaving far too independently for the Masters on Broad Street. Tension between the PFtW&C and PRR focused on the Fort Wayne's participation in a consortium with the CCC&StL and other regional carriers building a Terre Haute-St. Louis line via Alton, Ill. The PRR pulled out of the partnership to build its own, more direct route further south via Collinsville, Edwardsville and East St. Louis which would use the Eads bridge, the first span across the Mississippi to enter directly into downtown St. Louis. The PFtW&C continued to work with the Big Four on the Alton route. The Little Miami RR during the 1850s established a cozy relationship with the Big Four serving as a bridge line between the Big Four's connections back east via Columbus and the bustling riverport in Cincinnati. Broad Street was beginning to feel a bit neglected. But what set the ball a-rolling was Jay Gould's purchase of the Atlantic Great Western with its line cuttinmg diagonally across Ohio from Lorain County southwest to Cincinnati via Marion, Urbana, Springfield, Dayton & Middletown. At Urbana the AGWRR crossed the CC&IC. The CC&IC Columbus-Chicago crossed the Rubicon when it responded favorably to Gould's overatures intent on securing connections west via Urbana. As the PRR was each of the lines' senior secured creditor, the end was never really in doubt. The CC&IC and PFtW&C were each leased to the PRR for 999 years in 1868. The Little Miami capitulated in 1869 after the PRR purchased the 130-mile Cincinnati & Muskingum Valley running from Zanesville to Morrow on the LMRR 36 miles east of Cincy and declared the intention to develop it as an alternative gateway to the Queen City and the central South. The LMRR was leased to the PRR for 99 years (renewed in 1968) in 1869. changing gears: Dan, a question. In your July 1989 N6B story in the Keystone, where did you locate the figures showing the number of in service N6as and N6bs in 1927, the l930s, the 1940s etc. Tom ? In a message dated Fri, 2 Feb 2001 5:21:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, Dan Cupper writes: << Greetings to Bob, Gregg and the List: Actually, it was the Erie that was getting too friendly with the Fort Wayne, which prompted PRR to settle the matter by buying control. As already noted, the South Pennsylvania was the next attempt to parallel the PRR, in 1883-1885. Gregg, you're correct--1904, is when Gould's Wabash-Pittsburgh Terminal, predecessor of Pittsburgh & West Virginia, came across the Monongahela in defiance of PRR's best efforts to block it. W-PT trackage in the city itself makes an interesting study. The tracks that entered the stub-end "Palace Depor" did indeed stop there, but the freight tracks that paralleled them pointed straight toward Gould's dream of bridging the Allegheny on his way east. That gateway to the east did come about, but in different form--via P&WV's extension to Connellsville and a connection with Western Maryland, which occurred quite late in the scheme of things (February 1931). Around 1910, an electric interurban line proposed 10-hour service between Chicago and New York (Seems simple enough--10 hours of travel at 100 mph!). It completed a few miles of track in Indiana and no more. Finally, in the 1920s -- at a time when the federal government was trying to consolidate railroads because they were overbuilt in the first place, not encourage more construction -- an upstart proposal surfaced. A group of investors proposed building a new, freight-only, reasonably level-grade line across Pennsylvania. Their petition went to an ICC hearing, where PRR, Lackawanna, and others testified against it. The ICC denied permission. But what might have been: According to a friend who once gathered a lot of research on the case, the line intended to use Berkshires resembling those of the Erie. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@worldnet.att.net Psalm 22 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 20:53:16 +0100 From: Ken Meyer Subject: [PRR] Model Railroader index Does anyone know of a website the covers Model Railroader, Railroad Model Craftsmen, index? Ken Meyer, Bel Air, Maryland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] New N Scale Red Caboose Merchandise Service Cars Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 20:52:17 -0500 Lists: The N Scale Collector convention has just announced its pre-convention set of PRR Merchandise Service cars in the three color schemes. I was intrigued at the use of these on X29's so got out my magnifying glass and discovered that all three cars showe a stencilled Inside Height of 10 ft. 6 in. On an unrebuilt X29????!!!! For the outrageous price they are asking this is really too much. Also note that if their 1947-1950 scheme is correct (I think it is) then Micro-Trains scheme on their 20066 car is fanciful. No wonder they haven't issued a rerun. Does anyone out there know just what PRR car classes were painted in the Merchandise Service scheme. All the ones I have found in protoype shots seem to be 50 footers. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Brensdale@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 21:09:01 EST Subject: [PRR] Athern Genesis F7A List I was looking at the new Athen Genesis FA7 that my dealer had and notice that the number boards are wrong. They look like the number boards for F3's or F5's. The number for the unit is 9676 and according to P Power 2 on page 232 the number boards should be the larger ones used. Dale ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 21:21:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Athern Genesis F7A Dale, Expert Greg Martin will answer your observation soon I am sure. I don't believe they are wrong though. Some had the early "streamlined" if you will, number boards. I did wish that the Athearn F7 had the Large Boards though. Just because when they release the F3's these locos will have to have the streamlined boards too because they only had that style. It would give a dfferent look if each model had a different style......Gary. Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Railroader index Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:44:54 +1100 Ken, Yes MR'S Site http://www.index.mrmag.com/ Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] Model Railroader index Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 22:03:08 -0500 It is now on Trains.com http://www.index.mrmag.com/ cos Does anyone know of a website the covers Model Railroader, Railroad Model Craftsmen, index? Ken Meyer, Bel Air, Maryland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Athern Genesis F7A Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 21:11:05 -0600 Dale--Let's keep Greg Martin busy pumping out more stuff. Here is a recent post he made to this list. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; Cc: ; Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 4:37 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: Athearn Genesis PRR EH15a's Jim, Thanks, sorry to be so slow in responding but I have had a ton of mail to catch up on since I got back from the best Model Railroad meet I have been to that was held in Cocoa Beach, FL (just s small plug, but true). Vagel I scanned through the post and will reply in context... << Vagel, The Genesis PRR F 7 is dead nuts on for the group of PRR F7s that it is supposed to represent.>> "Dead nuts" in color scheme and lettering as well as the chosen phase which they represent as EF-15A's. The MOST accurate PRR F-7 created to date! <> Jim's right and we went over this a bit in Cocoa Beach. You can find a photo of this unit in service if you can secure a copy of Jim's article in Prototype Modeler when he did the Athearn/Atlas kitbash in JAN/FEB 1985 issue. I did a lot of research to insure what the Pennsy Modeler got when he shelled out for this loco's were absolutely correct units in every way or I would have bothered. The MRC...why bother, antenna mast or not they are not accurate. << I have copied Greg Martin on this message as he is a Pennsy pro and assisted Athearn in preparation of the Genesis PRR F 7. I will let Greg explain to us the group of PRR F7s that the Genesis model matches. OK Greg . . . you take over from here, but before you do, read Vale's message below. Jim Six>> I'm not a Pro and I didn't get paid. I wanted them correct and they ask me to help so I did. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Jim Six" Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 2:49 AM Subject: Athearn Genesis PRR EH15 (Was Re: Genesis PRR F 7) <> I would broaden my library Vagel. I can't wait unit Withers does their PRR F-unit book. I have seen some of the JD Hahn Photos and I am fortunate to have one to aid a modeling article in the future (thanks Paul). <<1) The number boards on the Athearn release look like the F 3 arrangement (low profile, matching curve contour of the nose, and with marker lamp integrated into the number board assembly, rather than the high profile box number board with separate marker lamp characteristic of the F 7).>> Correct, I call these the "streamlined numberboards," Paul Lubliner calls them the "bullet number board" and Ed Ryan of Athearn calls them the "Long numberboard" and you are correct they are this type. <<2) "Blatt" horn (one front, one rear) characteristic of F 3 series rather than the three chime horn (two front, one rear) characteristic of PRR F 7 series.>> Yes, they are the "Blatt horn" a standard EMD horn as delivered... Remember these are (F-7's) EF-15A's not EF-15's, let there be no doubt! <> I am not sure how the paint scheme would determine the class, but these units have a 2" "PRR BUFF" stripe and lettering and the Keystone mounted with the emblem, not the numbers, high on the door. This was the standard for units shopped after 1951 and match the lettering diagrams to the letter, I worked them up for the model from the originals. << which was a late order for F 3 helper locos, which were ordered in A-B-A sets of 4500 HP locos, rather than the A-B-B-A sets of 6000 HP F 3 road freight locos (EF15) ordered earlier. F-7's would be PRR class EF-15A. The difference between EF15/EF15a and EH15 is the gearing (65 mph for EF and 50 mph for EH). The PRR F 3 helpers (EH15) from EMD featured the stainless steel grills most often considered as spotting features of F-7's, yet with the front and rear "Blatt" horns.>> I see you know some of the history of the PRR F-unit, but there is very definite cut off dates to all this that I will not go into here and some of the units you refer to are the EMD F-5's... Yikes there's that funny phase again! generalizations are okay but... <> OOPS, nope you are wrong. This is one of the first ten EF-15A's Pennsy received from a delivery made in April of 1949, and oh by the by one of the very first F-7's produced by EMD for any railroad. There were 10 Aunits and 10 B-units in this configuration. I think that makes 5 set of 6000hp. Now if you want something a little different then you could change the numbers and add a 2" stripe 14-inches above the main horizontal stripe on each door to represent the "helper" or "SNAPPER" units that Pennsy bought in 4500 HP sets. Oh, yea did I mention that there were EF-15A's delivered just like the units Athearn decided to do? One Problem, the paint used by Athearn is the only correct "Buff" (forget Dulux Gold) marketed to date, but hopefully I will have that fixed in the near future with MICROSCALE. Oh, Yea the Brunswick Green/DGLE is going to be a bear to match with the special "Satin" shine. So we need to wait and see if I can persuade Athearn to recreate a limited run of the "Snapper" units perhaps this Fall. <> Vagel and all I hope this all helps. Buy with confidence but buy. These units are going to be very limited perhaps less than 1000 nation wide. YOU NEED TO GET YOUR ORDERS INTO YOUR DEALERS NOW! Force you dealer to have Athearn take BACK ORDER on these units or it could be a long time before we see them again. There are a lot of roadnames to get into the market and coming back to the beginning make take years. I will venture to guess that within 5 years these first units will sell for 5 times their value. To be fore warned is to be fore armed... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 22:19:42 -0500 From: Bob Colquitt Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Railroader index Here's the place - has most: http://www.index.mrmag.com/ -=- Bob Ken Meyer wrote: > > Does anyone know of a website the covers Model Railroader, Railroad > Model Craftsmen, index? > Ken Meyer, > Bel Air, Maryland+ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 09:00:05 +0100 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: [PRR] Nuernberg toy fair Dear fellow listers, these days the main events for modellers in Europe is held - the toy fair in Nuernberg. You may find a constantly updated news list on the homepags of MIBA (a German model raoilroad magazine) under: http://www.miba.de/spezial/spezial/messe01/index.htm US-models are listed; I have seen the first photos of Bachmann´s 0-6-0 saddle tank and the 2-10-0. Have a look and have fun! Burkhard Sanner Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 02:18:53 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Arrival of January Mainline Modeler Hello list, Have those of you who subscribe to Mainline Modeler received your January 2001 issue yet. The mail is a skosh slow to Korea, but I usually get my issues by the 15th of the cover month (just like when I was in Texas). Thanks in advance! Doug __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 03:55:37 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Partial bibliography of CT1000 et al., 7th revision Thanks for information received to (in alphabetical order) Jim Aldridge, Jeff Feldmeier, Bob Johnson, Pat McKinney, Paul Schopp, Garry Spear, Dave Wartell. Jeff reported a photocopy of a 1906 CT1000, the title page of which says it supercedes the CT1000 of 1905. Editions were printed in: 1946 Supplement to 1945 edition, date not certain 1945 ------------+ 1923 | 1918 | 1915 | 1913 | 1911 Form C. T. 1000 ???? | (???? means "don't know") 1907 | 1906 | 1905 | <--- new information ???? | 1903 | 1902 | 1901 | 1900 ------------+ 1899 Form number not known ???? Form number not known 1895 ------------+ ???? | 1891 Form C. R. 76 ???? | 1888 | 1887 ------------+ ???? Form number not known 1882 ------------+ ???? Form 76 C. R. 1879 ------------+ 1878 Form number not known ???? Questions which are still open: 1. Fill in the gaps (eliminate the ????) 2. Work out what "subset" books were printed in each year. 3. Work out the Region/Grand Division/Division structure for each year in which a CT1000 was printed. (The CT1000's themselves should help in that.) 4. Catalog the "other information" in each year's CT1000/CR76/76CR. (Lists of track scales, tables of car numbers, like that.) ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Brensdale@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 07:47:34 EST Subject: [PRR] Athern Genesis F7A List I did some more research and found out that early F7's had F3's number boards. In PRR Diesel Years I found severely photo's of F7's with small and large number boards they said Pennsy ordered them that way. Thank you for your help. Dale ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: N Scale Collector cars (was New N Scale Red Caboose Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 09:39:08 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 4 Feb, "Gregg Mahlkov" wrote: First of all, the convention cars are MT, not Red Caboose. > The N Scale Collector convention has just announced its pre-convention set > of PRR Merchandise Service cars in the three color schemes. I was intrigued > at the use of these on X29's so got out my magnifying glass and discovered > that all three cars showe a stencilled Inside Height of 10 ft. 6 in. On an > unrebuilt X29????!!!! For the outrageous price they are asking this is > really too much. Yep, and the first scheme was never applied to an X29. Apparently the Society decided to ignore accuracy, and took their data from X29b. What class do the cars show? > Also note that if their 1947-1950 scheme is correct (I think it is) then > Micro-Trains scheme on their 20066 car is fanciful. No wonder they haven't > issued a rerun. Yes, PRR's PS-1 cars apparently never received any M/S paint job. > Does anyone out there know just what PRR car classes were painted in the > Merchandise Service scheme. All the ones I have found in protoype shots seem > to be 50 footers. Brady McGuire's article in the Summer 1988 Keystone (generally regarded as gospel) says that the first scheme was only applied to 100 X40b (60'), 300 X41b (50'), and "some" early X29b cars. The X29b bears no real resemblance to the X29, since only the chassis was reused. MT makes a 50' single door car, but I haven't checked its accuracy to an X41. Atlas makes a 60' single door autoparts car, which would require severe alterations. The second scheme was apparently only applied to X29 cars. When the Shadow Keystone scheme was introduced, the third variant was done. McGuire says that it was designed for the X41b, and he includes a picture of an X29 in this scheme. The Microscale decals are apparently correct for the 40' boxcars. You have to rearrange the pieces and replace the data for longer cars. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 12:51:37 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] Springfield show I attended the Springfield show this weekend and the standout item for PRR HO modelers that I saw was the test runs of the DesPlaines P85b's. They are unbelievable. I almost had a "sexual experience" right there in the aisle - very embarrassing! On a serious note. They (and some day Branchline) seem to be elevating plastic passenger cars to the level that freight cars reached with IM, Red Caboose, and P2K. The detail is exquisite. You have to see the underbody, and the window frames. Its all too perfect - now if it was only available for sale. Also of great interest to me was the Trainstuff resin casting of the Wilmington DE PRR Station. They had the main bldg fronts and backs available for sale as separate parts. I bought a bldg front for use in a few years as part of passenger station in the city at the other end of the Tech Model RR Club's new layout. Its not for everyone. It is a BIG bldg. But if you are building a club, and you are the kind of person who thinks the "big" Bachmann city buildings are kind of small (I had to kitbash two of the Ambassador Hotel kits to get the hotel I wanted), then this kit (or the parts) are for you. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 12:59:48 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Question I recently acquired a Sunset ND cabin and want to paint it to reflect a late-1930s cabin car. I've applied a nice base coat of freight car color, but am now stymied by not knowing how far to go in painting the iron work black. Besides underframe, carbody side and end rails, cupola braces, door knob, and the smoke jack, what else should be black? Ladders and platform railing? End sills? Steps? What about the marker lamps? Black or yellow? Any suggestions appreciated, Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Springfield show Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:17:21 -0500 I have to say the P85's are pretty amazing looking! It's ashame that they've sat for about 7 years but at least they're finally coming out! They're shooting to have them out this summer. I asked about the price and they said they didn't have one yet but it would probably be higher than the $29.95 that the Middle Division originally advertised. I actually found one of the Middle Division's fliers for the cars (scheduled delivery was May 15, 1993.) I also say the Atearn Genesis F7A for the first time and have to say it look great! It's a pain that they don't paint the handrails but... They said that additional numbers should be made when they run out of these but no schedule or promise.. (he did say most likely later this year...) Rob http://prr.railfan.net > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andy > Miller > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 12:52 PM > To: PRR; PRR-Modeling@egroups.com > Subject: [PRR] Springfield show > > > I attended the Springfield show this weekend and the standout item for > PRR HO modelers that I saw was the test runs of the DesPlaines P85b's. > They are unbelievable. I almost had a "sexual experience" right there > in the aisle - very embarrassing! On a serious note. They (and some > day Branchline) seem to be elevating plastic passenger cars to the level > that freight cars reached with IM, Red Caboose, and P2K. The detail is > exquisite. You have to see the underbody, and the window frames. Its > all too perfect - now if it was only available for sale. > > Also of great interest to me was the Trainstuff resin casting of the > Wilmington DE PRR Station. They had the main bldg fronts and backs > available for sale as separate parts. I bought a bldg front for use in > a few years as part of passenger station in the city at the other end of > the Tech Model RR Club's new layout. Its not for everyone. It is a > BIG bldg. But if you are building a club, and you are the kind of > person who thinks the "big" Bachmann city buildings are kind of small (I > had to kitbash two of the Ambassador Hotel kits to get the hotel I > wanted), then this kit (or the parts) are for you. > -- > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > =================================================== > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Question Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:29:51 -0500 Mr. Keller, I might not be totally correct on this for the specific time period, but most photo's and live examples I have seen show the entire car in freight car color. This includes all of your mentioned items, excluding maybe, the door knob (brass), and the smoke-jack which was often silver. The end marker lamps were yellow. Anything that looked black usually was from an accumulation of road dirt & soot, not an application of black paint. Hope this helps. C.Burnley Jr. PRRT&HS #271 -----Original Message----- From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu [mailto:vck@andrew.cmu.edu] Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 1:00 PM To: PRR-talk Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Question I recently acquired a Sunset ND cabin and want to paint it to reflect a late-1930s cabin car. I've applied a nice base coat of freight car color, but am now stymied by not knowing how far to go in painting the iron work black. Besides underframe, carbody side and end rails, cupola braces, door knob, and the smoke jack, what else should be black? Ladders and platform railing? End sills? Steps? What about the marker lamps? Black or yellow? Any suggestions appreciated, Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: yunz@bellatlantic.net Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 13:40:37 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Question I believe the steps, end sill, ladder, supports and railings were all car color. Roof top and cupola roof should be black. Later in time the grab irons and such were painted yellow. The markers should be black also for that time period, assuming they are they correct markers for that time period. The color photo's I found all show this practice, but early photos of these cars are all B & W of course. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:08:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Question Vagel, Not sure what time period this car represents but if you can find a photo of the Bobber that was restored at the Strasburg shops, this maybe what you are after. Can't recall it that one is an ND, N4 or ? A color photo of the cabin was shown in a back issue of the Keystone. Say about 6 years or so ago. If I recall, this cabin was painted all Freight Car color. Not sure of the small detailing color, but probably Freght Car color as well. Wasn't there a time when cabin roofs were painted mineral brown, or am I thinking of early P-70's? Anyway, check on that photo. It will help you out....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Athern Genesis F7A Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 15:11:45 -0500 PRR-Gize: BTW, is the Athearn Genesis F-7 made in California or China? Just curious.... Ted -----Original Message----- From: Steve Hoxie [mailto:steveh@dotstar.net] Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2001 10:11 PM To: PRR-talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Athern Genesis F7A Dale--Let's keep Greg Martin busy pumping out more stuff. Here is a recent post he made to this list. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; Cc: ; Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 4:37 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: Athearn Genesis PRR EH15a's Jim, Thanks, sorry to be so slow in responding but I have had a ton of mail to catch up on since I got back from the best Model Railroad meet I have been to that was held in Cocoa Beach, FL (just s small plug, but true). Vagel I scanned through the post and will reply in context... << Vagel, The Genesis PRR F 7 is dead nuts on for the group of PRR F7s that it is supposed to represent.>> "Dead nuts" in color scheme and lettering as well as the chosen phase which they represent as EF-15A's. The MOST accurate PRR F-7 created to date! <> Jim's right and we went over this a bit in Cocoa Beach. You can find a photo of this unit in service if you can secure a copy of Jim's article in Prototype Modeler when he did the Athearn/Atlas kitbash in JAN/FEB 1985 issue. I did a lot of research to insure what the Pennsy Modeler got when he shelled out for this loco's were absolutely correct units in every way or I would have bothered. The MRC...why bother, antenna mast or not they are not accurate. << I have copied Greg Martin on this message as he is a Pennsy pro and assisted Athearn in preparation of the Genesis PRR F 7. I will let Greg explain to us the group of PRR F7s that the Genesis model matches. OK Greg . . . you take over from here, but before you do, read Vale's message below. Jim Six>> I'm not a Pro and I didn't get paid. I wanted them correct and they ask me to help so I did. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Jim Six" Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 2:49 AM Subject: Athearn Genesis PRR EH15 (Was Re: Genesis PRR F 7) <> I would broaden my library Vagel. I can't wait unit Withers does their PRR F-unit book. I have seen some of the JD Hahn Photos and I am fortunate to have one to aid a modeling article in the future (thanks Paul). <<1) The number boards on the Athearn release look like the F 3 arrangement (low profile, matching curve contour of the nose, and with marker lamp integrated into the number board assembly, rather than the high profile box number board with separate marker lamp characteristic of the F 7).>> Correct, I call these the "streamlined numberboards," Paul Lubliner calls them the "bullet number board" and Ed Ryan of Athearn calls them the "Long numberboard" and you are correct they are this type. <<2) "Blatt" horn (one front, one rear) characteristic of F 3 series rather than the three chime horn (two front, one rear) characteristic of PRR F 7 series.>> Yes, they are the "Blatt horn" a standard EMD horn as delivered... Remember these are (F-7's) EF-15A's not EF-15's, let there be no doubt! <> I am not sure how the paint scheme would determine the class, but these units have a 2" "PRR BUFF" stripe and lettering and the Keystone mounted with the emblem, not the numbers, high on the door. This was the standard for units shopped after 1951 and match the lettering diagrams to the letter, I worked them up for the model from the originals. << which was a late order for F 3 helper locos, which were ordered in A-B-A sets of 4500 HP locos, rather than the A-B-B-A sets of 6000 HP F 3 road freight locos (EF15) ordered earlier. F-7's would be PRR class EF-15A. The difference between EF15/EF15a and EH15 is the gearing (65 mph for EF and 50 mph for EH). The PRR F 3 helpers (EH15) from EMD featured the stainless steel grills most often considered as spotting features of F-7's, yet with the front and rear "Blatt" horns.>> I see you know some of the history of the PRR F-unit, but there is very definite cut off dates to all this that I will not go into here and some of the units you refer to are the EMD F-5's... Yikes there's that funny phase again! generalizations are okay but... <> OOPS, nope you are wrong. This is one of the first ten EF-15A's Pennsy received from a delivery made in April of 1949, and oh by the by one of the very first F-7's produced by EMD for any railroad. There were 10 Aunits and 10 B-units in this configuration. I think that makes 5 set of 6000hp. Now if you want something a little different then you could change the numbers and add a 2" stripe 14-inches above the main horizontal stripe on each door to represent the "helper" or "SNAPPER" units that Pennsy bought in 4500 HP sets. Oh, yea did I mention that there were EF-15A's delivered just like the units Athearn decided to do? One Problem, the paint used by Athearn is the only correct "Buff" (forget Dulux Gold) marketed to date, but hopefully I will have that fixed in the near future with MICROSCALE. Oh, Yea the Brunswick Green/DGLE is going to be a bear to match with the special "Satin" shine. So we need to wait and see if I can persuade Athearn to recreate a limited run of the "Snapper" units perhaps this Fall. <> Vagel and all I hope this all helps. Buy with confidence but buy. These units are going to be very limited perhaps less than 1000 nation wide. YOU NEED TO GET YOUR ORDERS INTO YOUR DEALERS NOW! Force you dealer to have Athearn take BACK ORDER on these units or it could be a long time before we see them again. There are a lot of roadnames to get into the market and coming back to the beginning make take years. I will venture to guess that within 5 years these first units will sell for 5 times their value. To be fore warned is to be fore armed... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 17:43:56 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Question In a message dated 2/5/01 12:17:03 PM Central Standard Time, vck@andrew.cmu.edu writes: << I've applied a nice base coat of freight car color, but am now stymied by not knowing how far to go in painting the iron work black. >> The Painting and Lettering article in the December `1974 Keystone basically says in the 1930's paint everything freight car color. New trucks were black (not sure how to apply that to the 4-wheel ND) . Statement is made that repaints of underframe,trucks,and wheels were in freight car color, at least in the 30's. The statement about wheels might be correct in 1930 (I don't know what year regulations banned painting wheels). Hardware is not referred to, except in reference to 1890 and Lines West 1904 drawing, in which ironwork is specified as black. These drawings are the ones that reference a "mineral brown" for roofs and underbodies (I understand R50b might have had a brown roof pre-WWII as well), gone by the 1930's. Black for roofs and cupolas didn't come into effect until late 40's, about the time yellow for handholds came into use. The main questionable area is the handholds for your 1930 time period. If it were me (opinion), I would paint entire car, including underframe , ladders, and cupola braces freight car color. I would leave wheels natural (I use rail brown) and paint handholds black.How much you weather the underframe is up to you--you might wind up with a weathered black. I will be painting mine 1949-style--haven't decided whether to paint handholds yellow or not--for sure I will paint markers yellow. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 18:12:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Question In a message dated 2/5/01 4:56:48 PM Central Standard Time, I wrote. << These drawings are the ones that reference a "mineral brown" >> That should read "metallic brown". BTW, I don't know whether smokejacks were painted or not--they quickly charred anyway,so I use a weathered black to start. Bob (Must be smoking my Sante Fe pipe today) Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 18:35:12 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: [PRR] Branchline Heavyweight Passenger Cars Just got a dealer catalog from Branchline showing what they will be doing in the heavyweight passenger cars. The list price on the Branchline cars is going to be $39.95. Probably not bad for what you will get in terms of over-all high level of details plus correct trucks, A/C system and roof treatment per specific prototype cars. Cars will also come with full interiors. For the Pennsy 8-1-2's they will offer three car names; Centfaun, Centwood and Centhill. For the 10-1-2's the Pennsy names will be Lake Merritt, Lake Maitland and Lake Stearns. Delivery is listed as "Available Soon." Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 21:26:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Branchline Heavyweight Passenger Cars From: Jerry Britton On 2/5/01 6:35 PM, Park Varieties at (parkvarieties@provide.net) wrote: > Just got a dealer catalog from Branchline showing what they will be > doing in > the heavyweight passenger cars. The list price on the Branchline cars > is > going to be $39.95. Probably not bad for what you will get in terms of > over-all high level of details plus correct > trucks, A/C system and roof treatment per specific prototype cars. > Cars will > also come with full interiors. For the Pennsy 8-1-2's they will offer > three car > names; Centfaun, Centwood and Centhill. For the 10-1-2's the Pennsy > names > will be Lake Merritt, Lake Maitland and Lake Stearns. Delivery is > listed as > "Available Soon." > Old info. These cars were announced and originally slated to ship in May 2000. Then they said the 8-1-2's would ship in Dec. 2000. Still nothing. I'm sure they will be dynamite when they finally arrive. We've been taking orders for over a year now. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 21:41:22 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Question To All, I concur with Bob. Standard PRR freight car color for Cabin Cars after 1920. The same for car roof, underframe, trucks, and wheels on repaint work. Interior would be buff after 1916 until about 1960. (source:THE KEYSTONE, 12/74, Vol. 7, #4, Painting and Lettering of Pennsylvania Railroad Cabin Cars, by Gary C. Rauch, Robert L. Johnson, and Fredrick V. Schaefer, pages 3 and 4) Black Cabin Car roofs and safety yellow grabs are a late 1940s or latter development. There is an excellent color photo of an ND Cabin at Camden, N.J. taken by R.C. Macher, Jr. in the what certainly must be the post war years. The Cabin body, roof and hardware are all Standard PRR freight car color. Because of the angle of the sun the underframe and wheels are in a deep shadow. (source: CABIN CARS OF THE PENNSYLVANIA AND LONG ISLAND RAILROADS, Caboose Data Book No. 2, by N. J. International.) Ed Martin banned by Ed Hall, Director, Cajon Div., PSR, NMRA, President for life member of the gang of two a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 22:08:22 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: B&O Comment (was Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Question) You know what? This is a great list! I posed a similar question on the PM list about B&O brown caboose color in the 1930s and have received absolutely zilch ... not a complaint about Jim Six's list, which is truly outstanding, but where are all the B&O prototype modelers??!! Thanks to all of the experts out there in Pennsy land! Vagel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 02:42:53 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genesis F7A Dale, Gary and all, I was prepared to answer this one a long time ago, Gary you are right. The choice of units was made for me when I was ask to do the research and development of the paint and lettering diagrams for the new Athearn Genesis F-7 phase 1 early. These units, and there were 10 Aunits and 10 B-units, were built in April of 1949 and were amongst the very first F-7's turned out by EMD. I could bore you with all the differences in the F 3, F-5 and F 7 production (of which the PRR owned some from each) but from the outside vantage point it is all cosmetic. Know this, that the PRR was stuck on the "streamlined" number boards until it was no longer an option that EMD was willing to provide and there were two different sizes also, the PRR used the longer of the two. So, no they don't have the wrong number boards, yes it does offer the market place and option to the Intermountain and still be called an F 7. I am in the process of trying to secure a great photo shot by Louis A. Marre in the collection of Paul Dunn of 9676 in August of 1956. I would love to use it in my upcoming article. Athearn, with the use of the Highliner shell has captured the F unit! What else needs to be said? Now if I can only get Life Like and Intermountain to change their paint and lettering colors we will all be in FAT City! Greg Martin Brensdale@aol.com writes: << List I was looking at the new Athearn Genesis FA7 that my dealer had and notice that the number boards are wrong. They look like the number boards for F3's or F5's. The number for the unit is 9676 and according to P Power 2 on page 232 the number boards should be the larger ones used. Dale >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 11:47:17 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Pullman Library Volum 4 _ PRR From: Jerry Britton Heads up!!! There's a copy of PULLMAN STANDARD LIBRARY VOLUME 4 PRR N/R Item #555059241 up for auction on eBay right now. These books are few and far between! (I am not the seller!) --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KimClarke@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 23:52:25 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR/Marion, IN, help needed Hello All: I am in need of details about the PRR in Marion, IN. Specifically, the body of my grandfather -- killed in WWII -- was shipped on the Pennsylvania Railroad after it was returned from Europe in 1949. I have a military telegram stating the body was being shipped on PRR Train No. 115 on Jan. 27, 1949. Departing Columbus, OH, at 9 a.m. and arriving Marion, IN, at 11:33 a.m. I'd like to know what kind of train this might have been (I assume freight?), what its standard route was, etc. Also, is there any information out there about how the railroad handled shipment of soldiers' bodies? The telegram indicates the body was accompanied by military escort. I am (obviously!) not a railroad person but joined this list in hopes someone might point me in the right direction. I'm writing my grandfather's biography and want to tell the full story of his final journey home. Thank you. Kim Clarke ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Hundman Pennsy Diesel Book From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 07:45:22 -0600 I just received the latest issue of Mainline Modeler and was sure surprised to see mentioned in that they were doing a book on Pennsylvania Diesels. Can anyone supply more information on the book? Or have I missed something here like Greg Martin is doing a book. Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 08:58:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Hundman Pennsy Diesel Book From: Jerry Britton On 2/7/01 8:45 AM, Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com (Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com) wrote: > I just received the latest issue of Mainline Modeler and was sure surprised > to see mentioned in that they were doing a book on Pennsylvania Diesels. > Can anyone supply more information on the book? Or have I missed something > here like Greg Martin is doing a book. > All I gotta say is "Why?" Withers Publishing already has out the first five volumes of an xx volumes set of books on PRR diesels. And the EMD F unit volume may even be two volumes! Why would another publisher get into that? Sure wish they would turn their energies elsewhere...how 'bout PRR box cars, or PRR passenger cars? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Marion, IN, help needed Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:46:10 -0500 Kim:- All railroads, including the PRR, handled human remains in Passenger Service, carrying the caskets in the baggage car. The military escort traveled on the same passenger train. There were several passenger trains between Columbus, Ohio, and Chicago, Ill. in 1949. Someone more familiar with that era (I was eight at the time) can probably tell you the specific name of the train. Hope this helps some. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 11:52 PM Subject: [PRR] PRR/Marion, IN, help needed > Hello All: > > I am in need of details about the PRR in Marion, IN. Specifically, the body > of my grandfather -- killed in WWII -- was shipped on the Pennsylvania > Railroad after it was returned from Europe in 1949. I have a military > telegram stating the body was being shipped on PRR Train No. 115 on Jan. 27, > 1949. Departing Columbus, OH, at 9 a.m. and arriving Marion, IN, at 11:33 > a.m. > > I'd like to know what kind of train this might have been (I assume freight?), > what its standard route was, etc. Also, is there any information out there > about how the railroad handled shipment of soldiers' bodies? The telegram > indicates the body was accompanied by military escort. > > I am (obviously!) not a railroad person but joined this list in hopes someone > might point me in the right direction. I'm writing my grandfather's > biography and want to tell the full story of his final journey home. > > Thank you. > > Kim Clarke > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:03:03 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Marion, IN, help needed Dear Kim, >I am in need of details about the PRR in Marion, IN. Specifically, the body >of my grandfather -- killed in WWII -- was shipped on the Pennsylvania >Railroad after it was returned from Europe in 1949. I have a military >telegram stating the body was being shipped on PRR Train No. 115 on Jan. 27, >1949. Departing Columbus, OH, at 9 a.m. and arriving Marion, IN, at 11:33 >a.m. >I'd like to know what kind of train this might have been (I assume freight?), >what its standard route was, etc. Also, is there any information out there >about how the railroad handled shipment of soldiers' bodies? The telegram >indicates the body was accompanied by military escort. Train 115, from the December 17, 1954 public timetable (#1) is the "Fort Hayes" combined trains 115-215, running from Pittsburgh to Chicago, via Columbus and Piqua. Train 215 originated in Norfolk, indicating that perhaps your grandfathers remains were repatriated or processed there (although they could just as easily been transferred from some other location. #115 is definitely a passenger train. The remains would most likely have been carried in a baggage car, and the military escort, depending on rank (which in turn probably depended on your grandfather's rank) would have had coach seats, or perhaps a Pullman berth. The schedule of the train can be viewed at Jerry Britton's web site http://kc.pennsyrr.com/passops/index.html under "Public Timetables", and is on page 26 (Table 20) of the PDF file. Good Luck in your search! Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 07:15:15 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Marion, IN, help needed --- KimClarke@aol.com wrote: > Hi Bob, > > Thank you so much for the information. It > definitely helps with my research > project. > > Kim Clarke Lest this seem mysterious, I had replied (accidently) to Kim only. I suggested that she might inquire of the army as to what their customs were in escorting the remains of military persons at that time. I didn't and don't have any specific contact info for the army, suggested that she might look up a reserve center or even recruiter for help in making contact. Can anyone improve on that? I'm more than a little moved by her request ("...these honored dead..." and all that) and wish him/her well in her quest. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 12:51:54 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: [PRR] Key J-1 I have just received several pieces of brass on consignment and one might be of interest to those on this list. It is a second run Key Custom Series #99 J-1 factory painted and lettered #6464. Piece and box are in mint condition. Engine test run only (really). Price is $1,500.00 including insured shipping. Contact me directly if interested. Frank Brua Park Varieties Southgate, MI ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 15:13:02 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Northern Central Chapter Meeting This Sunday (2/11) From: Jerry Britton This Sunday, Feb. 11, at 1:30 p.m., the Northern Central Chapter of the PRRT&HS will meet at the Yorktowne Hotel in York, Pa. The meeting is open to the public, so give it some consideration if you are within reasonable driving distance. This is the annual LCL meeting -- the program is the sharing of everyone's modeling and railroadiana interests. So bring along some unique item to show off! One of the attractions last year was my 1"=100' plan of the Enola Yards. You should have seen all of the grown men crawling around on the floor looking over its 15' length!!! This year I will have a plan of the Harrisburg Passenger Station in exact N scale. I'll also have all of the latest book releases -- "Under Pennsy Wires", "Trackside North of Washington", etc. -- with a couple available for sale. I should also have the new Athearn Genesis F7A and the Stewart Hobbies VO1000 to show. Bill Lewis will have an extensive collection of the new Bowser N scale PRR cabins. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Madison WI Train Show From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:09:38 -0600 February 17-18 the SCWD of the National Model Railroad Assn. will be hosting their annual train show at the Dane Cty Coliseum. This year's edition will cover 70,000 square feet of layouts and dealers. Two members of the PRR-Talk list will be there as vendors, myself and Pete Reinhold. Show hours are 10-5 both days. We hope to meet some fellow PRR-Talk people at the show. Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 03:05:18 EST Subject: [PRR] Re: [PM-list] Highliner F3, F7 A & B units Larry Neal writes: << Does anyone know when the Highliner F 3 and F 7 A units will be out? How about the cost? Are the B units still available or being re-issued? >> Guys, I just received my copy of the instruction sheets to the units a couple of days ago and went over the corrections with Paul. The window glass is now complete to for the gasket windshield and the only think left now is the Stainless steal parts coming from Plano and time to pack them. And yes the B units will be available also. I suppose I could scan the instruction sheets and post them to my webpage if anyone cares. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 08:47:31 -0500 From: "James L. McDaniel" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Marion, IN, help needed Next question: About Train 215 "originating in Norfolk", which I assume is Norfolk, VA. To the best of my knowledge no passenger trains originated there, as the only PRR "passenger" connection was via the NYP&N ferries to Cape Charles. All the PRR trackage was from the car float terminal at Little Creek to the Norfolk & Portsmouth Beltline to interchange freight with the other Tidewater RR's. All passenger service began at Cape Charles. The listed Delmarva passenger trains in the late 40's and 50's were in the 450 number range according to my timetables. Since the PRR passenger (ferry) terminal in Norfolk was shared with the C&O, could 215 be a C&O train that connected somewhere in Ohio with PRR 115? Another possibility for passenger/baggage service out of Norfolk-- going towards Indiana-- in that era time would be the N&W, again to Ohio with a change to PRR. Jim McDaniel, lost down here in Delmarva ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:56:02 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR/Marion, IN, help needed James asked about Train 215, "Originating in Norfolk." Sorry, haven't been following the thread so don't know the timeframes, and I am sure others will have detailed info, but one clue: The 1930 Official Guide reprint has a table for Cincinnati-Chicago service on PRR, with N&W connections from Norfolk, Va; two of the trains listed are PRR trains 216 and 217, so 215 may not be far off the mark (in a different year, no doubt). There was no indication of through cars with the N&W, whose trains were named Pocohontas and Cavalier; connections at Cincinnati were one to four hours. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:40:44 EST From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Regarding Marion Service Kim and folks, I had noticed your earlier inquiry, regarding I beleive, Pennsy train #115-215 and routings to Marion, IN. in the late 1940's. I can't answer for the 1940's but can perhaps shed some light on the service based on early 1950's info. There were two possible N&W-PRR routings, one more likely than the other. The N&W's Pocohantas (train #1, was it?) ran Norfolk to Cincinnati, with a section cutting off at Portsmouth, OH for Columbus, OH. The Cinncey section carried through sleepers, a sleeper lounge and a coach to be put on Pennsy train #215 at Cinncy for Chicago. Now Pennsy train #115, the Fort Hayes, ran Columbus-Marion-logansport-Chicago. #115 connected at Logansport with #215 and they ran combined to Chicago. My assumption , and it's only speculation, would be your grandfather's remains and escort were carried Norfolk to Columbus on the N&W. From Columbus they would have taken the Fort Hayes, #115, to Marion, 40 miles east of Logansport. (The train only became #115-215 west of Logansport). Hope this is of some assistence, and regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:26:24 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] A Teichmoeller moment I had a John Teichmoeller moment the other day. Ever since getting his book on PRR steel hoppers, I've been ignoring the foreground of published photos (especially those diesels) and looking at car types... On page 317 of Pennsy Power III, there is a photo from 1966 of Altoon PA, with no less than 4 PRR H31c war emergency twin hoppers! Now since only 500 H31 were originally built and many had been scrapped by then, the likelihood of randomly catching 4 together has to be pretty slim! Several conclusions are possible, but the one I keep coming back to is that these cars may be headed for class repairs (unlikely) or scrap... Why else would there be 4 congregated at the same location? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:11:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR Photo webpage update! List, Hello, I just wanted to take the moment to announce the new location of my PRR Photo webpages. Last week Go.com made an announcent that they, The Disney Corp., will be pulling the plug on that site soon. This would affect me big time. All my Webpages were located there. With lots of help from Jerry Britton, he is now Hosting these pages. You can get to them by using the link(s) below or by going to Jerry's mainpage at http://pennsyrr.com and finding the link there. Please update your Bookmarks if you routinely visit my pages for reference. If you view my webtv PRR page, it will remain at its' present url. Again, Thanks to Jerry and my Brother, Dave, for saving my pages dedicated to the Pennsy....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 15:19:40 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Regarding Marion Service Regards to Barry, Kim, Jim,John, Bob, Bruce, etc., and the List: A couple of notes on the topic of Kim's inquiry: -- In a reply to me, Kim noted that her grandfather's body arrived in New York via a liberty ship; thus, it's unlikely that the Norfolk & Western was involved. -- Side note: Referring to the discussion of combined Train 115/215: Barry P. correctly notes that this train was combined only *west* of the point where the remains were to be delivered, Marion, Ind. But even so, as of the timetable in effect on that date, Trains 115 and 215 were NOT a combined train. Later, yes; earlier, perhaps; but not at that particular time. -- In fact, at least four possibilities exist for how a connection from the East could have been made to Train 115 in Columbus, Ohio, on January 27, 1949. Given the info that the remains arrived from Europe into New York, the first two I'm listing below are considerably less likely: 1 -- N&W had two trains a day into Columbus from Norfolk (Trains 3/33 and 15/35. The former arrived at 7:50 a.m., 70 minutes before the 9 a.m. departure of PRR 115 for Marion). 2 -- C&O had one train a day into Columbus from Newport News/Norfolk and Washington, D.C. (Train 5/47), arriving 2:20 a.m. 3 -- PRR had eight trains a day from Phila.-NY/Balt.-Wash. The closest westward PRR connections to meet Train 115 would have been Train 3, the Penn Texas, arriving 8 a.m.; Train 65, the Jeffersonian, arriving 6:45 a.m.; Train 31, the "Spirit of St. Louis," arriving 6:15 a.m.; and Train 41, the Cincinnati Limited, arriving 5:45 a.m. 4 -- And although it's anathema to this list, let's keep in mind, too, that the Green Team -- New York Central -- also served Columbus from the east. NYC may have been the originating carrier, since it ran five trains a day into Columbus from the east. The one closest to a connection with PRR 115 would have been NYC 15, the Ohio State Limited (NY-Cincinnati), arriving Columbus at 5:38 a.m. Sources: N&W tt No. 5, 12/5/1948, pp. 7, 10 C&O system tt, 1/16/1949, Table 13 PRR Form 1 tt, 1/23/1949, pp 14, 20, 21 NYC Form 1001, 12/5/48, p. 35 Hope this helps. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@worldnet.att.net Psalm 22 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Shelb68man@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:05:55 EST Subject: [PRR] PennLine H-9 Remotor help Hi, Anyone on the list have info on remotoring an old PennLine H-9? I checked with Bowser about their Alco can motors, but they are out of stock. I do however, have a Sagami 1836 can motor that I would like to use. Is this a good choice? Should a gearbox be also used? Thanks in advance. Charles Chandler PRRT&HS #4705 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 16:11:38 -0600 Subject: [PRR] PBS "Streamliners" From: John Sheets The PBS program "Streamliners" from the American Experience series had several shots of the Reading, including RDG Troop trains and Budd Railcar #65. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 17:52:50 -0500 From: Bob Colquitt Subject: Re: [PRR] Regarding Marion Service/DoD service record Kim also needs to check with the Defense Department and get a copy of her grandfather's service record out of the St. Louis facility; it has all of the DoD servicemen records. Think she will need his service number/birth certificate? Also going thru her local congressman's office will speed up the process. His file may include his final transportation orders. -=- Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 18:51:33 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: Re: [PRR] PennLine H-9 Remotor help A-Line makes a replacement can motor and gear set for the H-9; stock number 130400; MSRP $52.95. From the photo, it looks identical to the old Alco Products Helix Humper. Frank Brua Shelb68man@aol.com wrote: > Hi, Anyone on the list have info on remotoring an old PennLine H-9? I checked > with Bowser about their Alco can motors, but they are out of stock. I do > however, have a Sagami 1836 can motor that I would like to use. Is this a > good choice? Should a gearbox be also used? Thanks in advance. Charles > Chandler PRRT&HS #4705 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BlockTruck@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:57:47 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Regarding Marion Service/DoD service record Bob mentions "final transportation orders." A little off topic, but did you know your body could travel on your railroad pass? Probably not good for commutation though. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Kunchick" Subject: [PRR] Need Advise Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:13:14 -0500 I been a lurker on this list for about 3 years now, and I'm always amazed with the knowledge you folks have. I have gain a lot of insight to the PRR and modeling railroads from you folks and "THANK YOU" a lot. I'm getting ready to start building my benchwork for a life long dream of mine, I'm 54 now so I figure it about time to clear out my little cellar and start it. I plan on modeling in "N" Scale: PRR & Atlantic (PRSL) line from the Jersey Interlock (Delair, NJ) to the Brown Interlock (Camden, NJ). (1940's to 1960) The main focus of the lay out will be the Pavnia Yard and the N.Y Shipbuilding Corp. in Camden. Been collecting track plans and photos for some time now. As a kid growing up in East Camden I ran the Pavnia Yards a lot and remember seeing the giant steam engines, but mostly remember the diesels working to break down and decoupled those giant freight trains. What I like to know first if there are any good books out there on this section of PRR & Atlantic (PRSL) or any other information. Second, my two sons and wife think I'm nut's because other then just putting up a layout for the boys at Xams, I haven't had a real layout up since I when into the Navy at 19 years old ( a great many of things have changed since then, but as I say the basics are still the same. (Anyone out there think I'm nuts LOL) Third, I not sure how much "N" scale equipment is out there for the 1940's to 1960, is there a lot. I know I will have to scratch build the N. Y. Shipyard, but I think I'm a better then avg. model builder LOL, but not to sure about "N" Scale ;-). So I'm looking for some input on my idea (wish I had room for HO that's all I ever work with since my sons where born before was "O" scale, but I'm looking forward to trying my hand at "N" scale hope these old eyes can handle it ;-) ) Thanks for your time Fred Delair, NJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Need Advise Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:51:18 -0500 Fred: There was an excellent book published about the Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Lines a few years ago. Since you still live in the area, you might try your library system. The main PRR yard in Camden was Pavonia, not Pavnia. There are plenty of PRR items in N scale. Bowser makes N5 cabin cars, Fine N Scale makes X29, X31 and X32 boxcar kits, Red Caboose makes ready to run X29's, and many excellent Diesels have come painted for PRR, including Atlas FM Trainmasters just released. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Kunchick" To: "PRR Talk" Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 9:13 PM Subject: [PRR] Need Advise > I been a lurker on this list for about 3 years now, and I'm always amazed > with the knowledge you folks have. I have gain a lot of insight to the PRR > and modeling railroads from you folks and "THANK YOU" a lot. > > I'm getting ready to start building my benchwork for a life long dream of > mine, I'm 54 now so I figure it about time to clear out my little cellar and > start it. > > I plan on modeling in "N" Scale: PRR & Atlantic (PRSL) line from the Jersey > Interlock (Delair, NJ) to the Brown Interlock (Camden, NJ). (1940's to > 1960) > The main focus of the lay out will be the Pavnia Yard and the N.Y > Shipbuilding Corp. in Camden. Been collecting track plans and photos for > some time now. > As a kid growing up in East Camden I ran the Pavnia Yards a lot and remember > seeing the giant steam engines, but mostly remember the diesels working to > break down and decoupled those giant freight trains. > > What I like to know first if there are any good books out there on this > section of PRR & Atlantic (PRSL) or any other information. > > Second, my two sons and wife think I'm nut's because other then just > putting up a layout for the boys at Xams, I haven't had a real layout up > since I when into the Navy at 19 years old ( a great many of things have > changed since then, but as I say the basics are still the same. (Anyone out > there think I'm nuts LOL) > > Third, I not sure how much "N" scale equipment is out there for the 1940's > to 1960, is there a lot. I know I will have to scratch build the N. Y. > Shipyard, but I think I'm a better then avg. model builder LOL, but not to > sure about "N" Scale ;-). > > So I'm looking for some input on my idea (wish I had room for HO that's all > I ever work with since my sons where born before was "O" scale, but I'm > looking forward to trying my hand at "N" scale hope these old eyes can > handle it ;-) ) > > Thanks for your time > > Fred > Delair, NJ > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 22:41:11 -0500 From: davep Subject: [PRR] To Post Everlasting BlockTruck@aol.com wrote: > Bob mentions "final transportation orders." > A little off topic, but did you know your body could travel on your railroad > pass? Probably not good for commutation though. If i recall correctly, it was Ike, who left instructions that his 'final journey' be in the baggage car, as a common soldier, duty done... best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 22:48:22 EST Subject: [PRR] PBS Streamliners Was there a video tape of this show offered? If so, I would appreciate the address and payment requirements for the tape. Many thanks, Evan RCT&HS 346 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 23:10:19 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] PBS Streamliners RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > Was there a video tape of this show offered? If so, I would appreciate the > address and payment requirements for the tape. I didn't notice. But I'd bet the www.npr.org would say... best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 00:22:19 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Hundman Pennsy Diesel Book Randy and all, I have seen the book while visiting Hundman's office but I can assure you this book is not mine. My book will be a book based on modeling from the Prototype. This will be a book to fit into any Pennsy fans library though. I don't believe we can ever have enough good reference materials. I am looking forward to the EMD F-unit book from Withers Publishing, Dan, Paul and Warren will insure the quality will be there. Greg Martin Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com writes: <> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: Re: [PRR] Hundman Pennsy Diesel Book From: Randy.Williamson@marathon-eap.com Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 06:37:36 -0600 I apologize Greg. I did not want to make it sound like it was your book. I was hoping you might be able to shed some light on the subject. Thank you for the information. I am looking forward to this book even more. It will be a great reference book for modelers who want their motive power to have the PRR feel. Randy ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:21:59 EST Subject: [PRR] Need Advise Since you are talking about working with your sons and worried about your small muscle motor skills - you might check out 3 rail "O" guage - Oddly, you might have room for O-27 or 31" diameter curves, where you might not have room for 22" radius HO scale MTH (Mike's Train House) has a lot of nice PRR Scale and semi-scale (called Rail King) stuff in "O" Guage, including GP units F-3's and semi scale H-9's I-1's (coming) M-1's - the traditional S-2 "Turbine" and N-5c and N-8 Cabin Cars. I recommend this approach, particularly if you don't know, or care about the differences between an F-3 and an F-7, or between a GP-7 and a GP-9, or an H-21 and an H-25, and would just like to put down rail - and run trains - the MTH (Lionel size) makes great stuff to pass on to Grand children too Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:31:27 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] HO 70P70 tender Hi Y'all. Just a quick note of information. I tried getting the MDC (Roundhouse) tender shell, which is supposed to be a good 70P70 (I think) and failed miserably (out of stock). Just the other day I noticed that MDC was releasing a new PRR style loco with that tender, so I went to check it out and found this: Tender kit #402 Coal (Pennsy Style) list $15.00 Jerry was able to get this for me in about a week! The kit comes with shell, underframe, trucks, wheels (metal, insulated one side), and a few details such as back up light and jewels. So, if you need an appropriate tender for that Bowser E6, now's the time to order one, while they are in stock! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 14:40:54 -0500 Subject: [PRR] C-Liner vs. Erie-Built Trainphones From: Jerry Britton Lee English over at Bowser is asking if the C-Liner trainphones are the same as those for the Erie-builts. If anyone knows, please drop him the info at bowser@csrlink.net. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 14:42:26 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Bowser HO scale GLa From: Jerry Britton Bowser has decided to do the GLa in HO scale. They are targeting Fall 2001 delivery and Lee thinks they are right on schedule. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 14:54:15 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Who Wants N Scale H21 Hoppers? From: Jerry Britton Now that I have your attention... I've been in direct contact with Lee English at Bowser and, following on the tremendous success of the N scale N-5 cabins, he is now eagerly considering the H-21 hopper in N scale. Is this good news, or what? With absolutely no commitment to my store or elsewhere, I'd like to perform a quick poll that I can forward to him about interest in this project. If you are interested in the N scale H-21, please e-mail me with the quantity you would likely purchase within the first three months of introduction...in the following paint schemes (based on Bowser's HO offerings): H-21 Clam Shell Doors __ "Pennsylvania" __ "Pennsylvania Lines" __ Circle Keystone H-21a "Saw Tooth" 4-Bay __ Circle Keystone __ Shadow Keystone __ Modern Lettering __ "Pennsylvania" (early version) __ Block Lettering __ "Coal Goes To War" Circle Keystone --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 15:02:55 EST From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser HO scale GLa GLa version? Bummer. BP ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 15:41:44 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser HO scale GLa I have mixed emotions. I certainly wouldn't call it "a bummer". My problem is that I can kit-bash GLAs easily from Bowser H21 ends and an Accurail USRA 55t hopper body, and have already built several this way, but GLs are impossible to kitbash and must either be scratch built or built from the Westerfield kits. However, the GLA outnumbered the GL by 4 to 1, so I can always use more GLAs. BTW My recipe for GLAs is: 1 Bowser H21 + 1 Accurail 55t + 1 set of Bethlehem H25 ends + 1 pr 2D-F8 trucks (Bowser or Kadee) = 1 GLA + 1 H25 (and a left over pair of "Bettendorf" trucks) The problem with this formula is that I would wind up too many H25s! That's why I put the whole project on hold when Bowser announced their intention to do either a GLA or GL. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== BPX29@aol.com wrote: > > GLa version? Bummer. > BP > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 14:57:44 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser HO scale GLa Andy wrote: >I have mixed emotions. I certainly wouldn't call it "a bummer". My >problem is that I can kit-bash GLAs easily from Bowser H21 ends and an >Accurail USRA 55t hopper body, and have already built several this way, >but GLs are impossible to kitbash and must either be scratch built or >built from the Westerfield kits. However, the GLA outnumbered the GL by >4 to 1, so I can always use more GLAs. I too have mixed feelings...I had voted for the fishbelly series becuase of their unique "look", but I need plenty of GLa cars! I jotted down the following from John Teichmoeller's book for my era (1944) GLc, GLca 10,000 (estimated from graph) GLa 25,547 H21 39,208 H22 659 H25 5,261 >BTW My recipe for GLAs is: >1 Bowser H21 + 1 Accurail 55t + 1 set of Bethlehem H25 ends + 1 pr 2D-F8 >trucks (Bowser or Kadee) = 1 GLA + 1 H25 (and a left over pair of >"Bettendorf" trucks) Cool! Could you expound upon this more? You use the H21 sides for the H25? Didn't the H25 have different profile ribs? Do you shave 'em off and replace them? Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 16:14:06 -0500 From: Thomas Mahon Subject: Re: [PRR] Need Advise Fred, There are several books on the PRSL, the one I am familiar with is by Gladulich, By Rails to the Sea. There is also one roughly titled the PRSL in color both hard copy. I grew up in Mt. Ephraim. And, I have collected a lot of stuff recently. Employee Timetables, Public Timetables, books, monographs, photos and the like. I'd love the opportunity to see your shipyard stuff. I remember the coal yard operation between Broadway and the 4 track main, Kaighn Avenue and the river. Contact me off list and let's chat. I see some collaboration opportunities here. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH Fred Kunchick wrote: > I been a lurker on this list for about 3 years now, and I'm always amazed > with the knowledge you folks have. I have gain a lot of insight to the PRR > and modeling railroads from you folks and "THANK YOU" a lot. > > I'm getting ready to start building my benchwork for a life long dream of > mine, I'm 54 now so I figure it about time to clear out my little cellar and > start it. > > I plan on modeling in "N" Scale: PRR & Atlantic (PRSL) line from the Jersey > Interlock (Delair, NJ) to the Brown Interlock (Camden, NJ). (1940's to > 1960) > The main focus of the lay out will be the Pavnia Yard and the N.Y > Shipbuilding Corp. in Camden. Been collecting track plans and photos for > some time now. > As a kid growing up in East Camden I ran the Pavnia Yards a lot and remember > seeing the giant steam engines, but mostly remember the diesels working to > break down and decoupled those giant freight trains. > > What I like to know first if there are any good books out there on this > section of PRR & Atlantic (PRSL) or any other information. > > Second, my two sons and wife think I'm nut's because other then just > putting up a layout for the boys at Xams, I haven't had a real layout up > since I when into the Navy at 19 years old ( a great many of things have > changed since then, but as I say the basics are still the same. (Anyone out > there think I'm nuts LOL) > > Third, I not sure how much "N" scale equipment is out there for the 1940's > to 1960, is there a lot. I know I will have to scratch build the N. Y. > Shipyard, but I think I'm a better then avg. model builder LOL, but not to > sure about "N" Scale ;-). > > So I'm looking for some input on my idea (wish I had room for HO that's all > I ever work with since my sons where born before was "O" scale, but I'm > looking forward to trying my hand at "N" scale hope these old eyes can > handle it ;-) ) > > Thanks for your time > > Fred > Delair, NJ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 16:42:48 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser HO scale GLa I use the entire body of the Bowser H21 with the ends removed. Yes, as you so astutely figured out, its a little more complex than the simple formula would indicated. The heavy top rib of the Bowser H21 has to be removed. After several attempts at this with poor results, I decided the best technique was to remove the entire top rib and replace it with strip plastic. This also lets me use a thinner cross section. The stakes on the H25 were heavier and tapered. I tapered mine with a chisel bladed X-Acto knife, a file, and sandpaper, but never fattened them up. The difference is only half an inch. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: > > Andy wrote: > >I have mixed emotions. I certainly wouldn't call it "a bummer". My > >problem is that I can kit-bash GLAs easily from Bowser H21 ends and an > >Accurail USRA 55t hopper body, and have already built several this way, > >but GLs are impossible to kitbash and must either be scratch built or > >built from the Westerfield kits. However, the GLA outnumbered the GL by > >4 to 1, so I can always use more GLAs. > > I too have mixed feelings...I had voted for the fishbelly series becuase of > their unique "look", but I need plenty of GLa cars! I jotted down the > following from John Teichmoeller's book for my era (1944) > > GLc, GLca 10,000 (estimated from graph) > GLa 25,547 > H21 39,208 > H22 659 > H25 5,261 > > >BTW My recipe for GLAs is: > >1 Bowser H21 + 1 Accurail 55t + 1 set of Bethlehem H25 ends + 1 pr 2D-F8 > >trucks (Bowser or Kadee) = 1 GLA + 1 H25 (and a left over pair of > >"Bettendorf" trucks) > > Cool! Could you expound upon this more? You use the H21 sides for the > H25? Didn't the H25 have different profile ribs? Do you shave 'em off and > replace them? > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: [PRR] C-Liner vs. Erie-Built Trainphones Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:25:33 -0600 Lee--Based on photographic evidence, principally from Paul Withers' "Pennsylvania Railroad Diesel Locomotive Pictorial, Volume Five, Fairbanks-Morse Locomotives", the style of trainphone antenna supports is different between the C-Liner and the Erie-Built. I have found that your supports for the Baldwin Sharks are very close and completely satisfactory for use on the Erie-Builts. Thanks for asking! Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:05:36 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser HO scale GLa In a message dated 2/9/01 3:04:21 PM Central Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << You use the H21 sides for the H25? Didn't the H25 have different profile ribs? >> Yup. Those sides (brittle as they may be) are about the only salvagable part from that abortion of an H25 kit that Roller Bearing Models brought out. At least they look correct to me. BTW, I don't think Sunset brass cars make this distinction, last time I looked at the couple of H21 and H25 that I have. Which makes me shudder everytime someone on the web suggests that a manufacturer use a brass model for a pattern :-(. And on the GLa question, I love the GLca,but I can build the few I need from Westerfield kits, especially now that the hopper assembly is one piece--boy, did I lose my religion over that first kit with all those individual pieces. Let's get the big volume guys like the GLa in mass production(I'm still p---ed that I have a Sunshine X31F to build and Bowser tooled this low-volume car up in plastic--go figure). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 18:36:27 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser HO scale GLa Bobspf@aol.com wrote:(in part) > ... >(I'm still > p---ed that I have a Sunshine X31F to build and Bowser tooled this low-volume > car up in plastic--go figure). > > Bob Zoeller > You're P--d! I spent over $300 last year to buy and build an ABA set of Erie-Builts from Miracle Castings! They are lovely and for all of 6 months they were unique. -- Regards, Andy Miller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "johnndeanna" Subject: [PRR] Oil City, PA Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:43:40 -0700 Hi all, I have a question concerning the facilities at Oil City, PA. Is this in fact a Pennsy area and what branch was it on if so? I have a map of that area and I was also wondering what the wye across the bridge was for? Turning trains or was it just a branch off into either direction? Any help would be appreciated as I am going to model this area and could use all the assistance I can get with info. Being in Montana does not help matters at all for researching. Thanks, John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ELM2@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:40:21 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] C-Liner vs. Erie-Built Trainphones Jerry, Tell Lee no. They are very different. Is he interested in doing them right? Ed Martin "a graduate of the Joe Jack school of driving" ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 18:59:53 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: [PRR] Middle Division Trackage I have a question for those of you with trackcharts or knowledge of the Middle Division. Where there any stretches if the Middle Division that were laid out as a three-track main line? If so, from approximately where to where. I know that a portion of one track was taken up in the 1960's (?) but I am interested in knowing if any segments were intitially laid out as a three-track main that would have been in use during the early 1950's. Thanks. Frank Brua ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 19:56:35 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] Middle Division Trackage Greetings to Frank and the List: The stretch of Middle Division main line between Spruce Tower, just west of the west portal of Spruce Creek Tunnel (about MP 214), and Forge Tower (MP 221), a mile east of Tyrone, was never wider than three tracks. Because the topography along the Little Juniata River is so rugged, the PRR never managed to bite the bullet hard enough to make this short stretch a four-track right-of-way. It crosses and recrosses the Little Juniata on a series of stone-arch bridges no fewer than twelve* times in this seven-mile stretch. Hope this helps. Dan *(note how close some of them are -- the bridges are located at MP 215.06, 215.27, 215.6, 216.14, 216.49, 217.25, 217.5, 218.42, 218.71, 218.88, 220.21, and 220.75.) Sources: PRR track chart 1-1-1955, CR track chart 9/24/1987 Dan Cupper cupper@worldnet.att.net 1 John 1:9 =================================== Park Varieties wrote: > > I have a question for those of you with trackcharts or knowledge of the > Middle Division. Where there any stretches if the Middle Division that > were laid out as a three-track main line? If so, from approximately > where to where. I know that a portion of one track was taken up > in the 1960's (?) but I am interested in knowing if any segments were > intitially laid out as a three-track main that would have been in use > during the > early 1950's. > Thanks. > Frank Brua > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 21:56:03 -0500 From: "David R. Campbell" Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City, PA johnndeanna wrote: > > Hi all, > > I have a question concerning the facilities at Oil City, PA. Is this in > fact a Pennsy area and what branch was it on if so? I have a map of that > area and I was also wondering what the wye across the bridge was for? > Turning trains or was it just a branch off into either direction? Any help > would be appreciated as I am going to model this area and could use all the > assistance I can get with info. Being in Montana does not help matters at > all for researching. > > Thanks, > > John > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". John, I was raised in Oil City, living there for about 36 years. It was on the main line from PGH to Buffalo years ago, someone will give us the dates I am sure. The wye bridge is still there and the currently unused leg was the line to Warren, PA along the Allegheny River. Again someone will tell us when it was removed. David Campbell Norton, VA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:09:02 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City, PA On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, David R. Campbell wrote: > John, > > I was raised in Oil City, living there for about 36 years. It was on the > main line from PGH to Buffalo years ago, someone will give us the dates > I am sure. The wye bridge is still there and the currently unused leg > was the line to Warren, PA along the Allegheny River. Again someone will > tell us when it was removed. I assume when Kinzua Dam was built; Isn't that how the Pennsy got those laid-out U boats the government bought them? -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:31:34 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City, PA On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, David R. Campbell wrote: > Without checking my references I think it was six U25B's however I may > be wrong. I was just pup when Kinzua was built. My dad used to take us 2500-2505 sounds rights > up there and we drove around the area to be covered with water when they > were tearing everything out. -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 06:16:42 -0800 (PST) From: James Anderson Subject: Re: [PRR] Bowser HO scale GLa --- Jerry Britton wrote: > Bowser has decided to do the GLa in HO scale. They > are targeting Fall 2001 > delivery and Lee thinks they are right on schedule. > I am delighted that Bowser is doing the GLa. It's a MAJOR part of the PRR hopper fleet from the 1920s into the 1950s. We can all use LOTS of these, even non-PRR modelers can use them. I'm always very glad when a manufacturer like Bowser makes an easy-to-build kit of ANY car that was used in large numbers by the prototype railroads. Yeah, we all have our personal "most wanted" lists, but let's not forget to rejoice (and thank people like Lee English) when something good comes along, even if it's not on our personal list! Jim Anderson PRRT&HS 3995 Thorndale, PA Modeling Elmira Branch circa 1925 prr4646@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City, PA Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:43:59 -0500 Yeah, Montana does make it tougher. If you have a library or historical society (University Libraries are best) that have old Sanborn Insurance Maps, you're in luck. Old topographic maps are also good, and track charts are available from websites, if they happen to have that one. It may be hard to find old PA maps in Montana, however. Good Luck! Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. & downtown Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "johnndeanna" To: Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 6:43 PM Subject: [PRR] Oil City, PA > Hi all, > > I have a question concerning the facilities at Oil City, PA. Is this in > fact a Pennsy area and what branch was it on if so? I have a map of that > area and I was also wondering what the wye across the bridge was for? > Turning trains or was it just a branch off into either direction? Any help > would be appreciated as I am going to model this area and could use all the > assistance I can get with info. Being in Montana does not help matters at > all for researching. > > Thanks, > > John > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Black is black(?) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 22:59:02 -0500 Greetings to all, Had an interesting experience this afternoon. Bought an Accurail 55-ton hopper (lettered for Berwind Coal) at the local hobby shop. Can someone tell me why manufacturers use "true" black for their cars? I haven't used "black" in ANYTHING (well tunnel interiors excepted) on my road for over 20 years. Granted in this case, it would make matching pure black easier for painting the mill finished weights in the slope sides, but for those somewhat more advanced, how do you blend pure black sides with a very dark gray weights, frame, trucks and break accessories? This inquiring mind wants to know. Thanks in advance, Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] black is black 2 Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 09:08:28 -0500 guys, I have been of the opinion that a "dead" black tended to hide the details of any model. Ok, if (?) this is the case, and given all the discussion revolving the "correct DLG", why hasn't anyone mentioned to the various manufacturers that their models may look more detailed IF they went to a non-true black. It would save money (redecaling & repainting) buying a lettered kit for 10 thumbed superintendents like myself. Plus the neophyte would better see the quality/detail of the kit. BTW kudos and accolades to the folks at Bowser! Speaking as a father of two (son 6, daughter 10), their clear covered kits sure make a trip to the local hobby shop easy. Just pull a box out, show the kiddies, and a sale is made. (Son picked a X-31f, daughter a GS gon). Just my $.02 Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 09:30:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Genesis F Greg Martin, list, I finally saw the new F7 in person yesterday. Did not see it run though so I do not know how they compare to Kato drives yet. Excellent choice of colors you provided Athearn. Can't wait til my units arrive. I will mount the familar PRR detailing. There is 1 minor question and 1 observation I noticed compared to prototype pics. First the question. Athearn chose not to paint the railings, leaving them a metal color. Should these be painted Black or DGLE or in fact were they upainted metal. The observation I noticed is the horns. Yes these are the correct Horns but there are 1 too many. Seems all early photos I can come up with shows the single Trumpet, Leslie A-250?, mounted above the engineers head. Even the as delivered 1948 F3 versions photographed at La Grange shows the single Horns. So I assume it would be more appropriate to remove the 1 set and fill in the mounting holes? Can you come up with a photo showing this production run with 2 single horns in their early years of service. Other than those 2 points, the long wait looks lke it payed off. Gary PS: Believe it or not, when I do get my units delivered, these will be the only Athearn power I own. I am not tootin Athearns horn. I am tootin their F7 horn, at least for their appearence anyway...... Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Oil City and new WNY&PA / PRR book Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 09:09:06 -0600 (CST) From: george.pierson@trnty.edu Hello, all, I noticed a recent brief discussion about the PRR in Oil City, PA. There is a new book out that might help answer some of these questions and will be of general nterest to PRR fans. It is titled WESTERN NEW YORK AND PENNSYLVANIA RAILWAY, by Pietrak, Streamer, and Van Brocklin. Some of you may know Paul Pietrak from his other books on various rr's in western NY and northwestern PA. This volume is the same format as his previous works and is nicely done. The printing is very good and it contains many photos and a good deal of info on an area and a railroad that has received little attention elsewhere in print. Many of the pictures have not appeared before in print. It is a c. 260 page paperback, and contains a lot of info, including engine rosters. Personal viewpoint: I have all of Pietrak's books and appreciate them all - but they can fall short of expectations because they are usually (how to put this) "local history" in character. They are strong on newspaper sources and railroad documents but prefer to report rather than report and interpret. Without a doubt, buy this book but do not expect a full-blooded history, which goes into all the reasons behind the basic events that occured. Also, compare Pietrak's rosters with other available sources - his rosters have gotten better over the years (my interest is in the n.g. lines, whose rosters are notoriously difficult) but have also been known to contain occasional errors. It is a plus in this new book that Dick Adams' name shows up in various places in the book - Adams has always seemed to me a trustworthy source on matter PRR. The cost is $27.03 postage paid and is available from: Paul Pietrak 98 Union St. Hamburg, NY 14075 Enjoy! George Pierson ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Middle Division Trackage Date: Sun, 11 Feb 101 13:46:25 -0500 (EST) > I have a question for those of you with trackcharts or knowledge of the > Middle Division. Where there any stretches if the Middle Division that > were laid out as a three-track main line? If so, from approximately > where to where. I know that a portion of one track was taken up > in the 1960's (?) but I am interested in knowing if any segments were > intitially laid out as a three-track main that would have been in use > during the early 1950's. > Frank Brua Frank, Dan Cupper has most ably answered the question that I _think_ you were asking. There are a couple of caveats, though. (I must say that at this point I'm "reading into" your question.) Caveat 1. Remember that the original PRR (Harrisburg to Pittsburgh) was laid out as a 2-track line. Presumably you know that the 4-track main was a later modification. Caveat 2. Are you seeking information for your model train? If so, you will want to know that, at various times in the 1950s-60s, the PRR was removing one of the 4 tracks of the Middle Division, between various points, and converting the middle track of the 3 remaining to bidirectional operation. If you want to model a particular year precisely, you really need to consult an employee timetable of the era to find out which interlocking-to-interlocking stretch had by then already been reduced to triple track. Caveat 2a. If the paragraph immediately above applies, and you want to be really accurate, you have one other difficulty. When the PRR was removing track, it did not always remove the same track number. No doubt you know that PRR bucked convention in numbering its tracks in sequence from south to north. So for the Middle Division, you'd have tracks #1, #2, #3, and #4. When one of the 4 tracks was being removed, PRR did not, say, always remove track #3. It was "random" (i.e., presumably, the track in worst shape between the 2 points at issue was removed). BUT - the track numbers changed (right away? later?). To model it correctly, you will need to have a 4-track-wide roadbed with 1 track width missing ties and rails. And you will need to know whether that gap is at the old location of track 1, 2, 3, or 4. This is not always easy to find out. While I was in school in Hershey, I tried to map out the Middle Division. This was at the time that CR was removing the 3rd track, going down to 2. At the time, it was still obvious which track PRR had removed, and I had/have the bulletin orders specifying which track CR removed. I can try to dig that map out, but as I recall, I never quite got much farther than Lewistown. Another way to get this answer would be to make sure you inspect employee timetables of the years _before_ the year you have chosen. Go for ETTs that have the paste-in updates in the back, preferably a complete set. Look for General Orders that specify when #n track between A and B was taken out of service, etc. Do note, however, that sometimes (for example) #4 track may have been taken out, but at one end of the removed trackage, (the remaining) #3 track was shifted over and connected to the former #4 track. It can get really weird! How do you know if the set of paste-in G.O.s is complete? The _next_ timetable always starts with an "01" General Order (e.g., for Timetable 12, it's General Order 1201). The "01" G.O. should specify that it includes all updates up to and including General Order XYZ. Again, for example, G.O. 1201 may state: "includes updates up to and including G.O. 1123". Good luck! -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:48:44 -0800 (PST) From: Joseph Andrews Subject: [PRR] clear boxes A recent post made mention of Bowser's clear boxes. I agree that this is one of the best ideas yet. When I was working in a large self service hobby shop, one of our problems was customers opening boxes to examine the contents. We did not want to discourage the responsible people from examining their prospective purchases, but the non-responsible people gave us many headaches. We would find loose parts on the floor and have no idea from which one of the hundreds of boxes it came. Worse yet, a favorite trick of some would be to swap the contents of a more expensive kit for a less expensively marked box. Even with survelance cameras and mirrors, it's very hard for a clerk to keep an eye on things when they're busy waiting on customers. Taping the boxes shut helped with the above problems, but hurt sales and offended some people who rightfully felt they should be able to examine something before they buy it. So, the message is - Don't be offended if a store employee looks over your shoulder while you're opening kits, be careful not to lose parts or damage the packaging, and ask permission before opening kits. Following these suggestions would contribute to keeping our local hobby shops in business. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:51:42 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Genesis F In a message dated 2/11/01 6:38:31 AM Pacific Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << Greg Martin, list, I finally saw the new F 7 in person yesterday. Did not see it run though so I do not know how they compare to Kato drives yet. Excellent choice of colors you provided Athearn.>> Thanks, I think that they hit it dead on and we now have a new standard. <> They were as a matter of fact painted and should be DGLE. I am not sure why they didn't elect to blacken them. You can touch them up with either my special blend to match the paint or someone told me that Model-Flex Brunswick Green is a close match. <> Yes, as delivered they received one horn, later that changed. Heres what you do. Remove the shell; with liquid plastic cement glue the horn in place from below. allow it to dry and then remove it flush with the roof using a #11 chisel blade. Then just touch up the same spot. <> Gary, I have looked and I can't find any photo's to support the two horn theory. Better we have two them none. All the samples I previewed never had all the details applied so it never struck me that they would miss this until after I showed it Cocoa Beach, FL. But, it is an easy fix, I will see if Athearn can make a running change on this one. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jerry Shickler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Oil City, PA Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:58:51 -0500 On my PRR in Erie County site, I've got some aerial photos of the wye bridge & roundhouse from the Library of Congress site, and a 1964 map of Oil City yard: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/oilcity.htm I got a quick look at the new WNY&P book, and it looks very good. --- Jerry Shickler Visit the PRR P&E, E&P, Chautauqua branches web page at: http://www.velocity.net/~geshick/prr/prrmain.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: johnndeanna To: Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 6:43 PM Subject: [PRR] Oil City, PA > Hi all, > > I have a question concerning the facilities at Oil City, PA. Is this in > fact a Pennsy area and what branch was it on if so? I have a map of that > area and I was also wondering what the wye across the bridge was for? > Turning trains or was it just a branch off into either direction? Any help > would be appreciated as I am going to model this area and could use all the > assistance I can get with info. Being in Montana does not help matters at > all for researching. > > Thanks, > > John > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] Genesis F Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:42:13 -0500 Greg, I also saw the Athearn/Genesis PRR F7 for the first time on Saturday--probably the same one Gary Mittner saw at the same Beaver Valley Junction Chapter/National Railway Historical Society meeting. That diesel is a work of art--nothing less. May I add my 'Congratulations' for your magnificient effort in bringing about its availability to HO scale modelers. Terry Stuart Date: Sunday, February 11, 2001 6:13 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Genesis F >In a message dated 2/11/01 6:38:31 AM Pacific Standard Time, >mittner@webtv.net writes: > ><< Greg Martin, list, > > I finally saw the new F 7 in person yesterday. Did not see it run >though so I do not know how they compare to Kato drives yet. Excellent choice >of colors you provided Athearn.>> > >Thanks, I think that they hit it dead on and we now have a new standard. > ><There is 1 minor question and 1 observation I noticed compared to prototype >pics. First the question. Athearn chose not to paint the railings, leaving >them a metal color. Should these be painted Black or DGLE or in fact were >they unpainted metal?>> > >They were as a matter of fact painted and should be DGLE. I am not sure why >they didn't elect to blacken them. You can touch them up with either my >special blend to match the paint or someone told me that Model-Flex Brunswick >Green is a close match. > ><but there are 1 too many. Seems all early photos I can come up with shows the >single Trumpet, Leslie A-250? mounted above the engineers head. Even the as >delivered 1948 F 3 versions photographed at La Grange shows the single Horns. >So I assume it would be more appropriate to remove the 1 set and fill in the >mounting holes?>> > >Yes, as delivered they received one horn, later that changed. Heres what you >do. Remove the shell; with liquid plastic cement glue the horn in place from >below. allow it to dry and then remove it flush with the roof using a #11 >chisel blade. Then just touch up the same spot. > ><horns in their early years of service. Other than those 2 points, the long >wait looks like it paid off. >Gary >> > >Gary, I have looked and I can't find any photo's to support the two horn >theory. Better we have two them none. All the samples I previewed never had >all the details applied so it never struck me that they would miss this until >after I showed it Cocoa Beach, FL. But, it is an easy fix, I will see if >Athearn can make a running change on this one. > >Greg Martin > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: [PRR] PRR Brass M1 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:14:16 -0500 Group, Could any of you identify the maker of this brass loco? All it has stamped on it is Japan? This Is my E-bay find with the bent cab. I just got it over the weekend and I am still deciding how to try to fix it. http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=show_photo&ID_Community=Samstoys&ID_Topic=4&ID_Message=17 Thanks Sam Vastano _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:22:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Brass M1 Sam, For some reason I couldnt get your file to open. But I recall seeing the loco on eBay. I believe it was an old Gem Model. Either the M1a or M1b. Look on the builders plate to see what class this is. In the mean time I will try to open your file again.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Brass M1 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:31:41 -0500 Gary, Group, The builder plates have nothing in them, Completely bank. It looks as if someone messed with the front end to go to the Modern Look, but didn't change to the drop coupler pilot it is still a slatted pilot. They also added a feedwater heater. I have been scouring books to see an M1 like this but to no avail. The number plate on the model is round with a 16 embossed in it? Help! Sam Vastano >From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) >To: svastano@hotmail.com (Sam Vastano), PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Brass M1 >Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:22:03 -0500 (EST) > >Sam, > > For some reason I couldnt get your file to open. But I recall seeing >the loco on eBay. I believe it was an old Gem Model. Either the M1a or >M1b. Look on the builders plate to see what class this is. In the mean >time I will try to open your file again.....Gary > > > > >Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art >Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > >PRR Loco Pics: >http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > >and...... > >PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: >http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Brass M1 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:42:46 -0500 Sam and the List: I could not access your site since I am at work but I believe that there were three M-1 models from Japan. the first one was made by (I believe) Guild in 1963 and was imported by Gem. The second run was in 1968 by Seiko (yes, the watch maker) and also was imported by Gem. The last run was in 1973 made by KTM and imported by Westside. The Westside (1973) M-1a's were all post-war (bueaty treatment). The 1968 Seikos were M-1as and M-1b's and were a combination of pre-war and post-war. I am not certian if the 1963 Guilds were all post-war or if they were pre-war. I am writing this from memory so if I am deviating somewhere, please correct me. Ted -----Original Message----- From: Sam Vastano [mailto:svastano@hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 10:14 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Brass M1 Group, Could any of you identify the maker of this brass loco? All it has stamped on it is Japan? This Is my E-bay find with the bent cab. I just got it over the weekend and I am still deciding how to try to fix it. http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=show_photo&ID_Comm unity=Samstoys&ID_Topic=4&ID_Message=17 Thanks Sam Vastano _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:21:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Brass M1 Sam, Wow, it looks like you have a real hybird on your hands. Someone emailed me the pic so I now have seen it. This is what I am asumming. First, the tender. I believe the short tender was only available with the Gem M1 Class. So you have a Short Tender 110/p75 Class most likely. Your Loco is howver an M1a or an M1b. The biggest feature to confirm this is the double air pumps. I can't see the pic to good to see the Cylinder Sadle but I presume it is the M1a/M1b type. You say it has the Slat Pilot? Gem M1a's and b's came with either Foot Board type or Drop Coupler type. So this was probably changed on yours. The round plate make no sense at all. This is a K4 number and I believe only the original M1 had the round number plate when built. Looks like someone added that too. Like I said, You have a mixed up loco. I am not saying there was never an M1a or b with these specific features, but I doubt it very much. This picture comes the closest. Look in Pennsy Power 1 on page 211. Bottom photo shows an M1a or b, can't make out the number. It has a short 110p75? Tender. But the loco has the drop coupler and has been modernized. For you to copy this, you would have to replace your slatted pilot to the drop coupler, pretty easy.. OR, you can model one of the early M1a Passenger Locos. You would need to drop the short tender for a 210p? or 250p? Class tender. Then you will need to de-modernize the front end of the loco. The first example would be the easiest. Either way you gotts get you soldering gun out. By the way, Ted was pretty accurate on the early M1 M1a M1bimport info.......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Brass M1 Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:32:02 -0500 Ted, Gary, Group, Here is the link again. http://content.communities.msn.com/isapi/fetch.dll?action=get_album&ID_Topic=4&ID_Community=Samstoys As for this being a M1a Or M1b I don't think so, Correct me if I am wrong But My model has the round pipes going from the smoke box to the cylinders. It does have 2 air pumps. Thanks Sam >From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) >To: svastano@hotmail.com (Sam Vastano), PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Brass M1 >Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:21:06 -0500 (EST) > >Sam, > > Wow, it looks like you have a real hybird on your hands. Someone >emailed me the pic so I now have seen it. This is what I am asumming. >First, the tender. I believe the short tender was only available with >the Gem M1 Class. So you have a Short Tender 110/p75 Class most likely. >Your Loco is howver an M1a or an M1b. The biggest feature to confirm >this is the double air pumps. I can't see the pic to good to see the >Cylinder Sadle but I presume it is the M1a/M1b type. You say it has the >Slat Pilot? Gem M1a's and b's came with either Foot Board type or Drop >Coupler type. So this was probably changed on yours. The round plate >make no sense at all. This is a K4 number and I believe only the >original M1 had the round number plate when built. Looks like someone >added that too. > Like I said, You have a mixed up loco. I am not saying there was >never an M1a or b with these specific features, but I doubt it very >much. This picture comes the closest. Look in Pennsy Power 1 on page >211. Bottom photo shows an M1a or b, can't make out the number. It has a >short 110p75? Tender. But the loco has the drop coupler and has been >modernized. For you to copy this, you would have to replace your slatted >pilot to the drop coupler, pretty easy.. OR, you can model one of the >early M1a Passenger Locos. You would need to drop the short tender for a >210p? or 250p? Class tender. Then you will need to de-modernize the >front end of the loco. The first example would be the easiest. Either >way you gotts get you soldering gun out. > By the way, Ted was pretty accurate on the early M1 M1a M1bimport >info.......Gary > > > > >Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art >Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > >PRR Loco Pics: >http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > >and...... > >PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: >http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:51:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Brass M1 Sam, Boy, that blew my theory right out of the water. Okay, you say this has the cylinder pipes exposed. This indeed makes that part a plain M1. The short tender would then match that feature of a Gem M1. The Slatted pilot also matches the Gem M1. The Gem M1 only came with the standard front end (un-modernized). It looks like someone has changed it over to the modernized look. The 3 puzzling parts are the Double Air Pumps and the 2 piece Feedwater Heater System (one piece is behind the stack and the others under the running boards. If I am correct on this, only M1a and M1b classes had these features. So there is where your Loco is mixed up. This could be a Kit bashed Gem M1? Parts from both the M1 and M1a were used to make 1 good loco? M1 parts would include, Tender and Loco Chassis. M1a parts are the Boiler and the Cylinder Saddle. Thats only a guess. If you come to the Train Show in a few months being held by the Beaver Valley Model Railroad Club, bring it down, I would like to confirm all of this......Still slightly confused Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: GPandelios@aol.com Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:17:23 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Yard signalling practice Folks, This is probably going to seem like a trivial question, but here goes: We are all familiar with the Pennsy signal bridges on the mainline. When exiting the mainline for a yard, I'm assuming the driver would have seen a PRR 7-light position signal prior to the yard lead. Once on the yard lead, what type of signals would have been (typically) encountered? Dwarfs? more 7-light position signals? Likewise upon preparing to enter the mainline (trailing point arrangement), would the engineer be most likely to get a signal from a 7-light position or a dwarf signal? Thanks, George ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roger P. Hensley" Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 06:51:50 +0000 Subject: [PRR] (Fwd) track plans This came to me from my website. Can anyone here give him a hand? Roger ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: Jtpredator@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 02:09:34 EST Subject: track plans To: rhensley@anderson.cioe.com I have been searching the web over, and I need some help. I live in Erie Pa, where the PRR was big back in the 18-1900s. It seems to me that when I find a club, or web site that is "into" the PRR. I can never contact them, because the e-mail is no longer available. So, if you could send me any info, or even web links as to where I can acquire some track plans, it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Jerry Thompson Roger Roger Hensley rhensley@anderson.cioe.com == http://madisonrails.railfan.net/ == == Railroads of Madison County (Indiana) == ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: ARRJERRY@aol.com Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:13:29 EST Subject: [PRR] Pennsy bridges/water towers. Hi Folks, I am nearing the end of wiring on the Allegheny Railroad and am looking forward to building some structures. Can you tell me: 1. Did Pennsy use a predominant color for their bridges? Silver? Black? 2. Did they put a keystone on them? Did they use PRR or spell out the lettering? 3. What color was used for the lettering if they used lettering? 4. How about water towers (drinking) at a major facility or shop roof? Was there a predominant color? Did they put signage on them? Color, Keystone, Etc.? I have looked thru my books and have not been able to draw any conclusions. Maybe the practice was so varied that it doesn't matter. Any comments you might have would be appreciated. Thanks, Jerry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Jeff Knorek" Subject: [PRR] Lost PRR website Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:25:01 -0500 What happened to Christopher T. Baer's PRRT&HS General Chronology of the PRR, its predecessors, successors, and historical context website that was at: http://www.prrths.com/PRR_hagley_intro.htm ? I hope it just moved and hasn't been yanked....it was a valuable resource of 19th century American History in addition to the PRR history. Jeff Knorek jknorek@msen.com Conrail Detroit Shared Assets Area website: http://www.railfancentral.com/knorek/SAA/SAAIndex.htm Lost and Found Railroad Photographs website: http://www.railfancentral.com/knorek/Found/found.htm Today's Random Railroad Image Find: http://www.railfancentral.com/knorek/Random/Random.htm New Brighton, PA, PRR Flyover website: http://www.railfancentral.com/knorek/Pgh/NewBrighton/NewBrighton.htm CSX in Southeast Michigan website: http://members.aol.com/jsundin357/plydiam.html Railroading in Ohio website (still under construction): http://www.msen.com/~jknorek/ohio.htm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NE PROVOCARA ROMAM You can ask Carthage what happens if you do... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Lost PRR website Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:40:27 -0500 It was moved to the Philla chapters area... Try: http://www.prrths.com/Phila_hagley_intro.htm Rob http://prr.railfan.net > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jeff > Knorek > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 9:25 AM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] Lost PRR website > > > What happened to Christopher T. Baer's PRRT&HS > General Chronology of the PRR, its predecessors, successors, and > historical context website that was at: > http://www.prrths.com/PRR_hagley_intro.htm > > ? > > I hope it just moved and hasn't been yanked....it was a valuable resource > of 19th century American History in addition to the PRR history. > > Jeff Knorek > jknorek@msen.com > > Conrail Detroit Shared Assets Area website: > http://www.railfancentral.com/knorek/SAA/SAAIndex.htm > > Lost and Found Railroad Photographs website: > http://www.railfancentral.com/knorek/Found/found.htm > > Today's Random Railroad Image Find: > http://www.railfancentral.com/knorek/Random/Random.htm > > New Brighton, PA, PRR Flyover website: > http://www.railfancentral.com/knorek/Pgh/NewBrighton/NewBrighton.htm > > CSX in Southeast Michigan website: > http://members.aol.com/jsundin357/plydiam.html > > Railroading in Ohio website (still under construction): > http://www.msen.com/~jknorek/ohio.htm > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > NE PROVOCARA ROMAM > > You can ask Carthage what happens if you do... > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:49:37 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Athearn Genesis vs. InterMountain F7's From: Jerry Britton With the great success of the new HO scale Athearn Genesis F7 units, has anyone, with technical expertise, compared it side-by-side with the just-released InterMountain F-7's in PRR livery? I'll be interested in hearing what you think. One advantage InterMountain has is four road numbers of A's and four road numbers of B's. Most tend to think of F units running A-B-B-A, and Athearn only came out with one B number...at least at this time! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] RE: PRR Yard signalling practice Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:54:54 -0500 George and list, In very general terms and in most all cases yard tracks were not signaled. The last signal a train being yarded would see was where it would divert from the main track into the yard. In most cases the aspect would be "Restricting" (Rule 290 - Proceed at Restricted Speed) as the train would be entering a non-signaled and non-circuited track. When leaving a yard there would either be a high signal or a dwarf at the end of the yard track just before entering the main track. BTW the word signaling has only one "L" in US use, two "LLs" in UK. I know there are some people who like to use two "LLs" but it just ain't rite, like the last part of this sentence. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Yard signalling practice Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:06:18 -0800 George, When leaving signalled territory and entering yard limits, a Restricting Indication was displayed to the engineer. If you check out a PRR rule book available online at various PRR sites and look for roughly rule 290, you'll see that this indication can be displayed with several different aspects. (indication = the meaning, aspect = actual appearance). So typically leaving the main, the engineer would see a full sized position signal with two arms, though it is possible to have seen a pedestal or dwarf signal. The type of fixture would probably be determined by what indications are necessary for trains _not_ leaving the main. The Restricting Indication was the "you're on your own" indication. The engineer had to be prepared to stop within half the distance to an obstruction, broken rail, misaligned switch, etc, and not exceed 15MPH. Even though the rule did not require it, the signal circuits at interlockings generally were designed to not display anything but stop if something detectable was wrong. So to the extent there where track circuits and motorized switches entering a yard or within an interlocking, these would be checked electrically. I would guess that techincally tracks within Yard Limits would not be signalled because Yard Limit Rules are in effect, but practically, the existance of signals (and absence of Yard Limit Rules?) would be determined by whether the yard had been equiped with track circuits and controlled switches etc. All routes entering an interlocking must be protected by a signal. So when leaving a yard and joining the main at an interlocking, there would have to be a signal. Typically this would be a dwarf, though it could be any type of fixture. Typically, a restricting indication was also displayed to simplify the signal circuitry, though a more favorable indication would certainly be more proper. This simplification was acceptable because the cab signals would very quickly display a more favorable indication as soon as the train was on the main. Once a more favorable indication was given on the cab signal, it would govern after having run the train's length. Some examples: Small yards like Paoli or 52nd street simply had a Restricting on a full sized signal leaving the main, and nothing more within the yard. Trains re-entered the main with dwarfs. At Sunnyside yard, trains left the main with full sized signals, but within the yard there were dwarf signals all over the place. I would guess interlocking rules were in effect for the whole yard. Trains re-entered the main at F tower with full sized signals. Trains enter the 36th St coach yard from upper level of 30th st Sta with a pedistal signal. Edison yard at Metuchin NJ left the main on full sized signals. Pedestal signals governed the running track and re-entry to the main. The yard tracks themselves were unsignalled. John PS. I think I've covered myself pretty well with language like "I guess" and "typically", but anyone feel free to correct any of the above with more definitive info. > ---------- > From: GPandelios@aol.com[SMTP:GPandelios@aol.com] > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 6:17 PM > To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] PRR Yard signalling practice > > Folks, > > This is probably going to seem like a trivial question, but here goes: > > We are all familiar with the Pennsy signal bridges on the mainline. When > exiting the mainline for a yard, I'm assuming the driver would have seen a > > PRR 7-light position signal prior to the yard lead. Once on the yard > lead, > what type of signals would have been (typically) encountered? Dwarfs? > more > 7-light position signals? > > Likewise upon preparing to enter the mainline (trailing point > arrangement), > would the engineer be most likely to get a signal from a 7-light position > or > a dwarf signal? > > Thanks, > > George > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Yard signalling practice Date: Tue, 13 Feb 101 14:51:38 -0500 (EST) GPandelios@aol.com scribit: > > Folks, > > We are all familiar with the Pennsy signal bridges on the mainline. When > exiting the mainline for a yard, I'm assuming the driver would have seen a > PRR 7-light position signal prior to the yard lead. Once on the yard lead, > what type of signals would have been (typically) encountered? Dwarfs? more > 7-light position signals? George, Others have already weighed in on this. I won't repeat them. First off, check out maps of the relevant areas. They are on my site. The maps alone are at http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/ This will soon move to http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/ The remainder of the site is already there. One point of clarification I wanted to add is where these signals are located. Typically, a train entering a yard would first pass the distant signal to the interlocking. This is some distance out on the line, 1 to 3 miles out or thereabouts, depending on the line. That signal would be displaying Approach (/), typically. Then the engineer would encounter the interlocking (home) signal, typically at Restricting (-- over \, as stated). Then the train would pass over crossovers, etc., until, still within interlocking limits, he would encounter the (probably) reverse switch directing him to the yard. Then he would exit interlocking limits at the (often) dwarf or (sometimes) high signal governing entry from the yard track to the main line for trains of the opposite direction. He would then be within the yard. The yard track may or may not have a track circuit. Larger, busier yards often did (though not necessarily for any great distance), so that the tower operator could see that a train had arrived on the circuit and was ready to exit. I hope this is clear. By your use of "driver", are you possibly from England or OZ? Oh, and BTW, Al Buchan was indirectly referring to me. I'm the one people like to pick on for not agreeing with some of Noah Websters "improvements" to the spelling of the 'muriken language. Eethr keep thee oeld, trudishunal speling, or goe compleetlee oevr to a fulee fonetik wun. Ie haet haf-as jobs. -- Mark D. Bej bejm@eeg.ccf.org ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:40:13 EST From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Athearn Genisus vs InterMountain Jerry and List... Can we try not to compare the IM directly to the Athearn. this is not really fair to both companies, just know that I personally went to great pains to make sure the work I did on the Athearn was to PRR Spec's. Can we just compare them both to spec? I would be more than happy to approach it that way, saving the good guy bad guy syndrome? I will be happy to supply the information I supplied to Athearn to any manufacturer or indiuvidual who asks. I am also working with Microscale to correct some issue I have with their decal sheets. I am waitng to hear back from Craig Walker. Let's be fair to all... Both units have their merrits and like I posted prior I have reviewed the instruction sheets from HighLiner... WE never had it so good..."good things come to he who waits" Greg Martin ======================================================== Jerry wrote: << With the great success of the new HO scale Athearn Genesis F7 units, has anyone, with technical expertise, compared it side-by-side with the just-released InterMountain F-7's in PRR livery? I'll be interested in hearing what you think. One advantage InterMountain has is four road numbers of A's and four road numbers of B's. Most tend to think of F units running A-B-B-A, and Athearn only came out with one B number...at least at this time!>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Athearn Genisus vs InterMountain Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:27:25 -0600 Greg, Jerry and the List--And the IM F-7 and Athearn/Genesis F-7 are models of different prototypes. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] PRR Brass M1 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:58:47 -0500 Hey guys, Just to set the record straight, there is at least one more M1/M1a/M1b out there beyond the ones posted by Ted Andrews. Sunset brought some in back around 1980. I know, cause I have two of the M1a's. Pre beautification, with footboard pilots. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] PRR Brass M1 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:07:28 -0500 guys, As a post script, Mainline Modeler did (IMHO) a fantastic two edition spread on the M1 series of locos back in Jan & Feb of 1987. Had to go thru my archives to dig em out. Some day, when I get my nerve up to "remodel" my brass............ Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:27:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] PRR DRIVER?? Thought the PRR used the term " Engineman " ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR Brass M1 Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:29:07 -0500 Walt and the List: You are correct regarding the Sunset M-1's in 1980. They were produced by Samhongsa in Korea. In addition, Oriental Limited imported more M-1 and M-1's in 1985 that were also Samhongsa. And then in the late '80's, Sunset came out with some more M's but they were the "Prestige Series" that were not Samhongsa. In the '90's, Challenger Imports came out with several runs by Samhongsa costing mucho $$. But as far as Japanese builders are concerned, there were three runs: Gem/Guild(1963), Gem/Seiko (1968), and Westside/KTM(1973). I have two of the Seiko's from 1968. Seiko is the famous watch maker and was in the brass engine business for a short time in the late '60's. The detail is in par for brass engines in the 1960's. And before anyone asks, these Seiko-built engines do run like watches despite the open frame motors! Ted P.S.: The M-1 is the most produced PRR steam engine in brass over the last 20 years. Second place would be the T-1 followed by the J-1. I think that if anyone such as Life Like Proto 2000 wants to do a PRR steam engine in plastic, the M-1 would be my first recommendation to them. Even at $1,400, the recent M-1's imported by Challenged Imports sell out. That is a very good sign! -----Original Message----- From: Walt Prusick [mailto:walpru@stargate.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 5:59 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] PRR Brass M1 Hey guys, Just to set the record straight, there is at least one more M1/M1a/M1b out there beyond the ones posted by Ted Andrews. Sunset brought some in back around 1980. I know, cause I have two of the M1a's. Pre beautification, with footboard pilots. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Peter Reinhold Subject: [PRR] Trainphone Questions Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:55:13 -0600 Jerry & List, All this talk about C-Liner and Erie-Built Trainphones got me thinking about the history of the trainphone and other related things. So, I have a couple of questions on trainphones: 1. When did the PRR start installing this equiptment ? 2. When did the trainphone become a system wide standard ? 3. On cabin cars, if the roof was freight car color, was the trainphone hardware painted freight car color or black? 4. Since we are on the roof of the cabin car, was the top surface of the wood roof walks painted (I think gloss paint would be very slippery when wet)? Pete Reinhold PRRT&HS #5518 Elmira Branch 1950 Paint Plus Trains paintplustrains@chorus.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Roundhouse Products questions Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:57:57 -0500 Hi, I have a listing of model freight cars on my web site. Unfortunately I never added the MDC cars! (But I agree with Ted that most of them are pretty poor representations of PRR cars! My page is at: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/Modelpage.html If anyone can help out by adding models that I've missed or help rating some of the models that I haven't, drop me a line. I'd like make the listing more complete! Also, if anyone can send me a scan or copy of Ian's list, I'd love to see it! Thanks, Rob S. http://prr.railfan.net > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andrews, > Ted > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 4:20 PM > To: 'Geoffrey Van Dooren'; PRR talklist; prrFAX > Subject: RE: [PRR] Roundhouse Products questions > > > Geoffrey and the List: > > I think that the 34' 2-bay covered hopper matches the H-34 class covered > hoppers the PRR had. In fact, I built 4 of them and decaled them > with Champ > decals. They look pretty good. > > However, the other cars that you listed are not good matches. The > Keystone, > a PRRT&HS quarterly magazine, produced a separate flyer called "The > Snapper". In the early 1980's, I think Ian Fischer, then the Keystone's > model editor, produced a rather comprehensive listing of the HO > scale models > available and the PRR classes that they matched/approximated. I think that > he listed the two 26-foot ore cars and the 3-bay hopper as > "poor". In other > words, these models were not good matches with PRR prototypes and > that most > modelers would not use them. I don't have any of the ore cars but > I do have > one hopper car in PRR colors. I am keeping mine on the roster > making believe > that the PRR acquired a unique hopper car from a short line. > > I think that Roundhouse's 50-foot plug door boxcar was rated as "Good" for > the PRR X-38 or X-53 boxcar. In addition, the 40-boxcar was rated as good > for the X-37 with modifications. I think that these 3 cars (34' covered > hopper, 40' boxcar, and 50' boxcar) are the only Roundhouse products that > match PRR protoypes. > > Anyone on the list, please jump with you > comments/rebuttals/clarifications. > > BTW, has anyone revised this model railroad list / PRR class > comparison the > ian Fischer did in "The Snapper"? > > I hope that this helps you out Geoffrey! > > > Ted Andrews > Carmel, Indiana > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Geoffrey Van Dooren [mailto:geoff_vandooren@yahoo.com] > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 3:52 PM > To: PRR talk list; prrFAX > Subject: [PRR] Roundhouse Products questions > > > Hey list, > > did the PRR ever owned the following cars? If so, > which class were they and were they in service in > 1954? > > Roundhouse Products: > 34' 2 bay covered hopper # 1431 > 26' thight-bottom hiside car #1703 > 26' low side ore car #1715 > 40' 3 bay rib side hopper #1488 > al these cars are on p. 186 till 188 in the Walthers > catalog. > > 60' Harriman-style passenger cars > Walthers catalog p 235 > Thanks, Geoffrey > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] Roundhouse Products question Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:55:01 -0500 Guys, I was under the impression that the Pennsy didn't begin their purchasing of ore jennys until after 1954, and as to the Harriman style passanger cars, well they were the product of Harriman controlled roads, and thus not suitable for Pennsy varnish. (or am I wrong again?) Walt P. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] Roundhouse Products questions Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:38:30 -0800 The Pennsy model listing by Brady McGuire (not Ian Fischer) was published in the Spring 1982 Keystone and is a very comprehensive listing of PRR models available up to that time; however, there's been an explosion of accurate models since then - here's a few more comments and suggestions: 480-1431 34' 2 bay Covered Hopper - Class H34 PS-2 covered hopper. The MDC model isn't bad for a model dating from the "shake the box" days before the freight car revolution; however, the kit suffers from two inherent flaws: every example I've seen has mold sinkholes on the sides, and the underframe has excess side and end sill representations, which wouldn't be too much of an issue except for the fact that MDC's underframe castings are incredibly hard to work with - tough to cut and difficult to tap for screws. Consider using the Atlas PS-2 (150-1800, undec) - the detailing is much less heavy, and the quality you get over the MDC kit is well worth the extra $4. See Rail Model Journal, Dec. 93 and Jan. 94 for articles on these cars by Richard Burg. 480-1703 26' Tight-Bottom Hi-Side Ore Car; 480-1715 26' Low-Side Ore Car. These are attempts to represent Classes G38 and G39 ore jennies which fall well short - 3'6" too long, wrong ends, no steam lance holes. See Mainline Modeler, Mar. 92 and Jul. 92 for articles on modeling these classes by Ed Martin. 480-1488 40' 3-Bay Rib-Side Hopper - Until recently, one of the cars most abused by Pennsy modelers due to the lack of decent easy-to-build models of Class H21. This car does not resemble any Pennsy design triple hoppers (H35, H36, H37, H39) and suffers several inherent flaws that detract from its overall appearance - the hoppers are too shallow and the overall detailing is very crude. IMHO, the presence of Pennsy Roundhouse triple hoppers on any layout purporting to be one based on the Pennsy screams out that the owner of that layout just doesn't care. The good news is that if you have some of these cars, they can be shortened by one panel to represent N&W Class H2a, a common N&W hopper that was leased to PRR (2,000 cars) during 1957-1967. Do yourself a favor and pick up a 12-pack of Bowser H21's. See John Teichmoeller's Pennsylvania Railroad Steel Open Hopper Cars for more info including how to do the H2a kitbash. > I think that Roundhouse's 50-foot plug door boxcar was rated as "Good" for the PRR X-38 or X-53 boxcar. The Roundhouse 50 ft car (plug door, diagonal panel roof, early Improved Dreadnaught ends) is NOT a representation of Class X38 (use a Proto 2000 Auto Boxcar if you want an X38). Brady McGuire recommends the car to represent Classes X44, X47, X50, X51, X53, X55, and X56 with modifications to the side sill and ends; however, if you want a later Pennsy 50 ft boxcar, there's now a nicer alternative - Branchline Train's new series of 50 ft boxcars. Branchline #1717 will give you a Class X53 boxcar for $14.98 - for more info, go to http://www.branchline-trains.com/ Most of these classes didn't show up until after 1954. > In addition, the 40-boxcar was rated as good for the X-37 with modifications. Pennsy didn't produce any 40 ft cars to the 1937 AAR Boxcar design. The X37 differed markedly from the standard design - an internal carline roof and sides with that bane of boxcar modelers - alternating center rivets (basically rows of rivets in the middle of the side panels). Sunshine Models makes accurate kits of Class X37 and subclasses (#44 series). 480-6100 series 60' Harriman-style passenger cars - Not even close. Why even bother when you can still pick up Bachmann Spectrum or Eastern Car Works PRR prototype passenger cars? > BTW, has anyone revised this model railroad list / PRR class comparison that Ian Fischer did in "The Snapper"? Not yet, but two days ago is definitely a good time to do so. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "pgrace" Subject: [PRR] Roundhouse Products question Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:38:29 -0000 I happen to have one of the MDC ore jennys and it appears to be relatively close to one of the 1960's cars. I havn't measured it as I only bought it because it looked close and was very cheap at a swapmeet. I do agree that the MDC covered hopper is not too bad though the shade of grey used seems a bit dark. Patrick Grace ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Apparently-From: From: "Lady Of The Woods" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Yard signalling practice Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:40:53 -0500 Hello Folks, Im a long time reader, i dont post often. I have a question, Im kinda knew to the hobby, just 4X8's over the years. Now i have room for a around the walls layout. YEA!!!!. im going to try to keep it simple, im goining to freelance it, but use all pennsy equip. ( my world ya know.. hehe) im thinking width of 36" with walls of 18' just a U shaped kinda thing. i want just simple switching for ind. and 2 that can run cont. has anyone tried the new Atlas DCC master sys? i was thinking of buying it. also, i have 2 athren F7 powered frames ( my dog ate the bodies!!) will InterMountain shells fit? or will the new Gen shells fit? are the gen shells aval? as i still have to pay for the house, hids, dogs etc, i have to keep to a budget. haha i have bought alot of P2k over the years, i want to modle the trans era, any and all suggestions will be app. thanks in advance Bill _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Roundhouse Products question Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:00:43 -0500 Pat and the list, I believe the ore jenny doesn't have the correct number or spacing of ribs. I think Model Railroading did an article on accurizing it many years ago. Chris Patrick Grace wrote: "I happen to have one of the MDC ore jennys and it appears to be relatively close to one of the 1960's cars. I haven't measured it as I only bought it because it looked close and was very cheap at a swapmeet." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Pennsyman50@gateway.net Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:12:25 EST Subject: [PRR] Peoria Greetings all, Can anyone give me the names of the towers controlling the PRR-NYC (P+E)?crossing in Mackinaw, Ill. and the crossing of the PRR and Santa-Fe in Morton, Ill? Any information is useful. Thank-you. Jon (pennsyman50@gateway.net) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: [PRR] [AD] Genesis F-7A & F-7B PRR Arrive!! Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:42:08 -0500 The Athearn Genesis F-7A & F-7B sets are now in stock. See your dealer! Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S Hobbies http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 (732) 271-0800 Voice (732) 271-0805 Fax ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:46:23 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: [PRR] BOWSER H9 & E4 repowering, PRR Genesis steam Hi gize, Am I always the last to know? Last fall I paid about $150 up front for three Bowser steam repower kits with flywheel and gearing through Walthers (H9 2-8-0 Consolodation, E4 4-4-2 Atlantic and new I1 2-10-0 Decadpod). Nick Drazic at Home Hobbies in Springfield, Ohio, called yesterday and said Bowser told these kits, originally marketed as Locomotion are no longer produced. I now have to decide on how to spend the credit on Nick's books. Any advice on upgrading Bowser steam kits to DCC-ready can motor Flywheel power? How bout matching a Boswer repower to NWSL passenger or freight regearing kits for MDC/Roundhouse's E4 and H9 PRR engines? I've got two H-9s and two E-4s, one each from Bowser and MDC/RoundHouse. Should I swap the Roundhouse/MDC H9 tender with the Bowser H9's? Nick's got the PRR USRA 2-8-2 from Athearn Genesis. Since the Springfield branch runs north from the Cincinnati branch at Xenia, It's likely one of the PRR's eight exiled to Cincinnati would occasionaly make it up to the windy city and points north. Does anybody have experience with this engine? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:28:03 -0500 Subject: [PRR] One Wilmington Station Model Available!!! From: Jerry Britton A customer of "Merchandise Service" has switched from HO to O scale and desires to sell their TrainStuff Wilmington Station model. For sale is the first installment, the main building, with a subscription for the remaining installments. These are a limited run and is completely sold out...so if you missed them, here's your chance! Go to the "Merchandise Service" site http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com and do a search on Manufacturer = Consignment Shop --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:41:02 -0500 Subject: [PRR] RAM Models N Scale B-60b Car Survey From: Jerry Britton RAM Models has pre-announced their first entry into the brass N scale marketplace. The owner has a background in architecture and is working with individuals and companies known for their quality. He promises his models will rival the quality of Key Imports and the like. "Merchandise Service" is pleased to announce that we have been approached -- and we accepted -- to become the EXCLUSIVE DEALER for the RAM Models line!!! The owner is considering some marketing suggestions I have made, but I am opening the floor for public comment through noon EST on Friday, February 16th. Shortly thereafter, we will lock-in our marketing plans and announce part numbers and begin accepting advance reservations. Two cars will be offered... * B60b Baggage w/ 5'-5 3/4" doors, "balloon" roof, Pennsy 2D-P5 roller bearing trucks * B60b Express Messenger w/ 6'-0" doors, "balloon" roof with vents, Pennsy 2D-P5 roller bearing trucks Both will be available unpainted or factory painted. Now, my questions for marketing...and your response will not commit you to purchase: 1) If multiple road numbers are not offered, how many unpainted units of each might you purchase? 2) If multiple road numbers were offered, how many of each car type would you consider purchasing? 3) If multiple road numbers were offered, would you prefer one new number available every few months or one run (like most brass projects) with several numbers available? 4) Any other comments? Time is of the essence...thank you! ----------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, president jbritton@dsop.com Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc. http://www.dsop.com "Merchandise Service" model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "GAS" Subject: [PRR] pennsy train phones Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:09:44 -0800 I was discussing the train phones with a fellow PRR friend and we got around to how they worked an both learned we were a bit ignorant about them. We have seen a video that stated the transmission was via the rail. But how was this done? What was the purpose of the large railing like antennae and the twin coils?Can anyone decribe how the mechanism worked? How was the sound transmitted and recieved via the rail? What happened at rail joints, they weren't welded together back then. Was there some kind of amplifier? --Greg Stone PRRT&HS member special interest Renovo Yards newly transferred from California to good Ole PA new e-mail address GASER@alltel.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:08:23 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy train phones The system worked by induction. The rails were a part but the paralleling company telegraph/telephone lines were a better conductor. The train phone sent out an radio frequency signal that was picked up by the trackside lines and at the other end of the train the trainphone antenna picked up the signal. Also, fixed trainphone sets (stations, towers, etc...) along the line could receive and transmit to near by trains. Since the RF signal is at a much higher frequency than the telegrapher/telephone signals, the the signals passed through the lines unimpeded by each other. (This property of electromagnetic waves is employed in many modern duplex transmission systems.) Within the last year or two there was an article in TRAINS, CLASSIC TRAINS or MODEL RR magazine that had a good explaination of the trainphone system along with a picture diagram of the systems functioning. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy train phones Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:18:03 -0500 List: In signaled territory, there were bonds at each rail joint. If I recall, and PRR was phasing out trainphones by the time I went to work for it, communication between locomotive and caboose might have been via the rail, but the coils and antennae were to transmit and receive via induction to the telephone lines alongside the railroad. For this reason, trainphones only worked on main lines and did not work at all in electrifed territory. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "GAS" To: "PRR talk" Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 8:09 PM Subject: [PRR] pennsy train phones > I was discussing the train phones with a fellow PRR friend and we got around > to how they worked an both learned we were a bit ignorant about them. We > have seen a video that stated the transmission was via the rail. But how was > this done? What was the purpose of the large railing like antennae and the > twin coils?Can anyone decribe how the mechanism worked? How was the sound > transmitted and recieved via the rail? What happened at rail joints, they > weren't welded together back then. Was there some kind of amplifier? > --Greg Stone > PRRT&HS member > special interest Renovo Yards > newly transferred from California to good Ole PA > > new e-mail address GASER@alltel.net > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:29:42 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy train phones In a message dated 2/15/01 8:23:05 PM Central Standard Time, mahlkov@gtcom.net writes: << but the coils and antennae were to transmit and receive via induction to the telephone lines alongside the railroad. >> I believe this is the principle of carrier wave communication. At my alma mater, IIT, our campus radio station, operated at low power on the near south side of Chicago in a similar fashion,using the telephone lines as a carrier. Theoretically, at our power level, only people on the campus would pick up the signal. Naturally, one of my joker fraternity brothers cranked up the power one day so everyone on the south side who picked up their telephone got to listen to WIIT. I believe some of the earlier household communication systems, such as room-to-room hi-fi transmission, worked the same way (maybe some do,still--I haven't kept up and am an amateur on the subject, anyway). Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: CAl2446507@aol.com Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:34:29 EST Subject: [PRR] Train Phones List I have a video called Clear Track Ahead that shows the whole operation of the phone system. Charlie ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 05:12:19 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: Re: [PRR] BOWSER H9 & E4 repowering, PRR Genesis steam Hello list, Before I make some suggestions, I have to attend to a few small factual errors. I believe you're thinking of Bowser's and MDC's E6s Atlantics; PRR skipped the E4 entirely, going from E3d to E5. Also, PRR had just 5 L2s USRA light Mikes. I repowered my Bowser E6s (actually a Bowser chassis and MDC boiler)with an NWSL 142-6 gearbox and an Alco Products can motor. The former is still available. While the latter is out of production, any flat can motor 18 mm or less wide will do nicely. My E6s runs well with this combination; it has the cast frame, and while I used Mantua drivers because I had them on hand, the Bowser drivers will work equally well. Bear in mind that regearing a steam engine isn't something you should do lightly; there's always the unexpected with projects like these. At the same time, if regearing and remotoring gives you the performance you want, by all means, go for it. Just don't do anything without NWSL's Sensipress. With Bowser drivers, I don't try to change the factory quartering; there are big striations on the driving axles helping to hold the wheels in place, and requartering to match the NWSL jig caused me a lot of grief. As long as all the drivers are quartered identically, things will be fine. I scratch a line with an Xacto knife across both driver and axle to ensure alignment before disassembly. One unrelated suggestion for Bowser's E6s; I changed the wheels in the lead truck so I could have electrical pickup from the righthand wheels; it makes the engine insensitive to dirty track; with just the drivers picking up current she could stall on some turnouts. I also briefly repowered my H9s with an NWSL 142-6 gearbox and Sagami motor. When the Alco repower kits came out, I replaced the NWSL/Sagami combination with the Alco kit. My H9s (actually now an H10s, but that is another story) has the old brass frame (I bought it in 1988; at the tender age of 18 this was a challenging kit) which I think contributed to the lack of success I had with the NWSL/Sagami combination; the gearbox ran hot and I couldn't trust the durability, especially since my H9s had the heavier lead boiler. Most H9s engines had tenders like the MDC PRR tender. If you buy the MDC tender kit separately, I suggest carving off the cast on grab irons and railings, replacing the trucks (Andrews or Dolphins from Bowser work nicely) and adding a water scoop and some brake gear; naturally your tastes may vary. The tender that currently comes with Bowser's H9s is a 130P75 that is not correct for this engine. My H9s came with Bowser's old, now out of production low sided tender, to which I added a Lines West coal bunker when I kitbashed the engine into an H10s. I own an Athearn Genesis PRR L2s (USRA Light Mike). I like the sprung drivers and the quiet operation of the engine very much. As I model the New York and Long Branch, this engine is somewhat incorrect, but I like it anyway. Some Athearn details vary from the PRR, like marker light location, headlight style, and the lack of reddish paint on the cab roof and tender cistern deck. I painted the cab roof and added glass in the cab, but left everything else alone. One closing thought. I just bought my first Bowser kit with the revised DC71 motor; it's a lot quieter and smoother running than the old DC71. My only request would be for flywheels (the whole reason I bought the Alco products repower kits when they were produced). Happy repowering!!! Doug --- LINESWEST@aol.com wrote, in part: > > Any advice on upgrading Bowser steam kits to > DCC-ready can motor Flywheel power? How bout > matching a Boswer repower to NWSL passenger or > freight regearing kits for MDC/Roundhouse's E4 and > H9 PRR engines? > I've got two H-9s and two E-4s, one each from > Bowser and MDC/RoundHouse. Should I swap the > Roundhouse/MDC H9 tender with the Bowser H9's? > Nick's got the PRR USRA 2-8-2 from Athearn > Genesis. Since the Springfield branch runs north > from the Cincinnati branch at Xenia, It's likely one > of the PRR's eight exiled to Cincinnati would > occasionaly make it up to the windy city and points > north. > Does anybody have experience with this engine? > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the > message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 08:17:53 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Journal From: Jerry Britton Yikes! A single issue of Pennsy Journal is currently fetching over $100 on eBay!!! PRR PULLMAN RAILROAD SPRC PUB BUSINESS CARS + Item #558250702 --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 08:25:59 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] BOWSER H9 & E4 repowering, PRR Genesis steam LINESWEST@aol.com asks > Am I always the last to know? > Last fall I paid about $150 up front for three Bowser steam repower >kits with flywheel and gearing through Walthers (H9 2-8-0 Consolodation, >E4 4-4-2 Atlantic and new I1 2-10-0 Decadpod). Nick Drazic at Home Hobbies >in Springfield, Ohio, called yesterday and said Bowser told these kits, >originally marketed as Locomotion are no longer produced. > I now have to decide on how to spend the credit on Nick's books. > Any advice on upgrading Bowser steam kits to DCC-ready can motor >Flywheel power? How bout matching a Boswer repower to NWSL passenger or >freight regearing kits for MDC/Roundhouse's E4 and H9 PRR engines? > I've got two H-9s and two E-4s, one each from Bowser and >MDC/RoundHouse. Should I swap the Roundhouse/MDC H9 tender with the Bowser >H9's? > Nick's got the PRR USRA 2-8-2 from Athearn Genesis. Since the >Springfield branch runs north from the Cincinnati branch at Xenia, It's >likely one of the PRR's eight exiled to Cincinnati would occasionaly make >it up to the windy city and points north. > Does anybody have experience with this engine? Tom, I think your dealer might be confused. These repower kits were originally sold by Alco Products as the "Helix Humper" line. Apparently the line was sold (or "stolen" according to one of the previous owners...but I ain't gettin into that cat fight...) and is being re-issued by A-Line under the moniker "Locomotion". Bowser was a reseller just like everyone else as far as I can tell. Unfortunatley, they never seemed to like the idea that they should just sell a kit with a decent modern drive train (sigh...something like their feeling that an accurate PRR tender wasn't that improtant either). The last time I checked the Walthers web site, many of these kits were slated for delivery to Walthers either this month or soon. Now we all know that many times these dates are entirely hypothetical...but I think that the line is currently being released. A call or email directly to A-line might help clear up the confusion. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Don Millbranth" Subject: [PRR] PRR - TT No.4 - Western Region on e-Bay Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:54:10 -0600 Greetings I just wanted to let anyone that might be interested know I have the following item listed on e-Bay: "PRR - TT No.4 - Western Region -1966 - Item #1112135483" . Thank you, Don ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Pennsy Journal Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:02:33 -0500 Yikes is right! That's Ebay for you. I thought I was overpaying when I paid $20 for the same issue on Ebay less than 2 weeks ago! Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Jerry > Britton > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 8:18 AM > To: PRR-Talk LIST > Subject: [PRR] Pennsy Journal > > > Yikes! > > A single issue of Pennsy Journal is currently fetching over $100 > on eBay!!! > > PRR PULLMAN RAILROAD SPRC PUB BUSINESS CARS + > Item #558250702 > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:11:46 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] PRRT&HS February e-NEWS The PRRT&HS February edition of e-NEWS has just been released. Details of the May Annual Meeting are included. Al ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/586931/_/982340547/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [CYBER] PRRT&HS February e-NEWS Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:11:46 -0500 The PRRT&HS February edition of e-NEWS has just been released. Details of the May Annual Meeting are included. Al ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This list ("Cyber-Talk") is for discussion of Cyber Chapter (PRRT&HS) business only. All general modeling and/or Pennsy discussion should take place on "PRR-Talk". For assistance with this list, send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To access the "Members Only" section of the web site, click on a link and, when prompted, enter the user name "member" and the password "standardrr". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] PRRT&HS February e-NEWS Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:11:46 -0500 The PRRT&HS February edition of e-NEWS has just been released. Details of the May Annual Meeting are included. Al ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:48:02 -0500 Subject: [PRR] 2001 PRRT&HS Convention Schedule From: Jerry Britton As with prior years, the tentative schedule of events for the 2001 PRRT&HS Convention is available from the web site of the Cyber Division of the PRRT&HS. See http://prrths-cc.pennsyrr.com Looks like a strong program, hope to see you there! Room rate is $79 per night. Make reservations soon! As soon as the Pittsburgh Chapter sends me the file for the registration packet, I will post it as a PDF file. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:30:39 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: [PRR] F30 flatcars Can someone who has better control over his/her collection of Keystones tell me the issue in which class F30 was covered? Thanks, Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:42:26 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] F30 flatcars From: Jerry Britton On 2/16/01 12:30 PM, vck@andrew.cmu.edu (vck@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote: > Can someone who has better control over his/her collection of Keystones tell > me the issue in which class F30 was covered? > Spring 1990. Found out via a wonderful web site that has an index to The Pennsy: http://kc.pennsyrr.com/library/keystone.html --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] F30 flatcars Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:37:57 -0800 > Can someone who has better control over his/her collection of Keystones tell > me the issue in which class F30 was covered? "F30a and Related Classes," by Ian Fischer, Keystone, Spring 1990. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: Re: [PRR] F30 flatcars Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:32:22 -0500 Jerry, F30d is in the 93 /4 issue... ( My Excel Spreadsheet !) -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: vck@andrew.cmu.edu ; PRR-Talk LIST Date: Friday, February 16, 2001 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] F30 flatcars >On 2/16/01 12:30 PM, vck@andrew.cmu.edu (vck@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote: > >> Can someone who has better control over his/her collection of Keystones tell >> me the issue in which class F30 was covered? >> >Spring 1990. > >Found out via a wonderful web site that has an index to The Pennsy: > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com/library/keystone.html >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com >Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:03:57 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] F30 flatcars Thanks to all! --On Fri, Feb 16, 2001 5:37 PM -0800 "Benjamin Hom" wrote: >> Can someone who has better control over his/her collection of Keystones > tell >> me the issue in which class F30 was covered? > > "F30a and Related Classes," by Ian Fischer, Keystone, Spring 1990. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: [PRR] PRR interactive position light signal site Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 00:06:40 -0500 I just stumbled into a very interesting interactive PRR position signal site. Click on http://members.tripod.com/~communipaw/galleryframeset.html When you click on to a rule number, the signal on the screen displays the correct aspect with the appropriate description of what the signal and rule means. That address is the best I can do to go direct. If for some reason this address does not work, it can be reached through the Hudson and Manhattan RR site. I'll keep up with feedback on the list and provide whatever assistance I can. I'd like to have some feed back on this site. Other northeast fallen flags are also available. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 00:19:02 EST Subject: [PRR] 1924 CT-1000 on e-bay 1924 edition of CT-1000, currently at more than $45.00 on e-bay with more than two days to go Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR interactive position light signal site - SECOND Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 00:19:22 -0500 I guess I don't know haw to determine the correct address so far down into the site. Click on below and you come to the H&M Home Page. On the right slide down to just past the half way mark. Just above a thumbnail titled, "The twin towers of the H&M there is an underlined phrase, click on "Fallen Flags of New Jersey". Scroll down to The PRR and click on "Position Light Signal Rules (JAVA Version). The HTML version just shows the rules in a table format. If someone out there can tell me how to get an address deep down on a web site, I'd appreciate it. I hope this gets all of you to where I want. All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: Weldon Greiger To: Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 12:06 AM Subject: PRR interactive position light signal site > I just stumbled into a very interesting interactive PRR position signal > site. > > Click on http://members.tripod.com/~communipaw/galleryframeset.html > > When you click on to a rule number, the signal on the screen displays the > correct aspect with the appropriate description of what the signal and rule > means. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:00:50 +0100 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR interactive position light signal site The easier way is just to go to: http://raildata.railfan.net/java/BNOSignals/BNOSignals.html Burkhard Sanner Weldon Greiger scribit: > I just stumbled into a very interesting interactive PRR position signal > site. > > Click on http://members.tripod.com/~communipaw/galleryframeset.html > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:03:17 +0100 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR interactive position light signal site Oops, my last mail was quite a faux-pas on this list... It should of cours read: http://raildata.railfan.net/java/PRRSignals/prrplsig.html Burkhard Burkhard Sanner schrieb: > The easier way is just to go to: > http://raildata.railfan.net/java/BNOSignals/BNOSignals.html > > Burkhard Sanner > > Weldon Greiger scribit: > > > I just stumbled into a very interesting interactive PRR position signal > > site. > > > > Click on http://members.tripod.com/~communipaw/galleryframeset.html > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy train phones Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:52:34 -0500 The college radio transmission system to which you refer is called "carrier current." The Pennsy trainphones were officially called an "inductive carrier" system. > >I believe this is the principle of carrier wave communication. At my alma >mater, IIT, our campus radio station, operated at low power on the near south >side of Chicago in a similar fashion,using the telephone lines as a carrier. > Theoretically, at our power level, only people on the campus would pick up >the signal. Naturally, one of my joker fraternity brothers cranked up the >power one day so everyone on the south side who picked up their telephone got >to listen to WIIT. >I believe some of the earlier household communication systems, such as >room-to-room hi-fi transmission, worked the same way (maybe some do,still--I >haven't kept up and am an amateur on the subject, anyway). > >Bob Zoeller > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:20:34 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy train phones In a message dated 2/17/2001 7:31:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, tstuart@forcomm.net writes: << I believe some of the earlier household communication systems, such as >room-to-room hi-fi transmission, worked the same way (maybe some do,still--I >haven't kept up and am an amateur on the subject, anyway). > >>The carrier system at my Alma Mater, in the 1960's, worked over the power lines - Transformers had to be "jumpered" and you could listen on "plug in" (not battery operated") radios only Dick Ross Mount Union College Alliance, Ohio (Where the C&P and PFtW&C cross) Class of 1966 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:36:47 -0500 From: Jerry Jordak Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR interactive position light signal site - SECOND Weldon Greiger wrote: > I guess I don't know haw to determine the correct address so far down into > the site. > > Click on below and you come to the H&M Home Page. On the right slide down > to just past the half way mark. Just above a thumbnail titled, "The twin > towers of the H&M there is an underlined phrase, click on "Fallen Flags of > New Jersey". Scroll down to The PRR and click on "Position Light Signal > Rules (JAVA Version). The HTML version just shows the rules in a table > format. > > If someone out there can tell me how to get an address deep down on a web > site, I'd appreciate it. The signal rule page is actually on Henry Sundermeyer's Fallen Flags of New Jersey page at http://raildata.railfan.net/. It has lots of good track charts, maps, and timetables of PRR, PRSL, CNJ, and other railroads that ran in Jersey. The direct link to the position light signal rule page is: http://raildata.railfan.net/java/PRRSignals/prrplsig.html >From his main page if you drill down into the other railroads listed, he has similar Java app pages for CNJ, Erie, and Lackawanna signals too, along with a working page on the interlocking at Winslow Junction on the PRSL. Pretty neat stuff! -JWJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:06:34 -0500 From: Christopher Chany Subject: [PRR] Kit Instructions Dear Listers, Awhile ago I aquired at a swap meet two items. The first is a Bowser T1(built but not painted). The tender streamlining is riveted to the frame in the area right behind the cab roof. If that gives any clue as to age. The second is a built up but not painted Quality Craft Gigantic Tank Car (4 sets of 4 wheel trucks). I am looking for instructions for both since it appears to me that both are missing some items. Please reply off list, any copying/postage costs will gladly be paid. Although I don't feel like giving Bowser what he wants for shipping and handling just for a few sheets of paper Thanks in advance. Chris Chany PRRT&HS member #1931 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:24:27 -0800 (PST) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] I need your HELP for my final task I am 21 years old and I study Management, Tourism & Recreation at the Coloma university in Belgium (Europe). Next year I have to make a final task otherwise I can't graduate. (against February 2002) My suggestion was a comparison between the passenger service of the PRR in 1944 and Amtrak in 2000 on the NYC-Chicago route. And they accepted my suggestion! Next points are certainly going to be included: number of personnel, number of trains, number of passengers, comfort, service, promotion, safety, route, tarifs, timetables. Extra suggestions are welcome! Because my knowledge on the Pennsy is still little -I started getting interested two years ago after reading an article on the GG1- I have many questions. And I will quickly have to expand my library. I hope I can count on all of you to get this task to a good end. My first question: How many passengermiles, routemiles, passengers and personnel were there in 1944 and how with Amtrak in 2000? Thanks Geoffrey Van Dooren modeling Eastern Division 1954 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Weldon Greiger" Subject: Re: [PRR] Re: PRR interactive position light signal site - Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:23:52 -0500 Thanks to all for the help. Any other neat sites like this?? All the best to you and yours Weldon ----- Original Message ----- From: Jerry Jordak To: PRR-Talk Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 8:36 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR interactive position light signal site - SECONDEDITION > > > > If someone out there can tell me how to get an address deep down on a web > > site, I'd appreciate it. > > The signal rule page is actually on Henry Sundermeyer's Fallen Flags of > New Jersey page at http://raildata.railfan.net/. It has lots of good > track charts, maps, and timetables of PRR, PRSL, CNJ, and other railroads > that ran in Jersey. The direct link to the position light signal rule > page is: > > http://raildata.railfan.net/java/PRRSignals/prrplsig.html > > >From his main page if you drill down into the other railroads listed, > he has similar Java app pages for CNJ, Erie, and Lackawanna signals too, > along with a working page on the interlocking at Winslow Junction on > the PRSL. Pretty neat stuff! > > -JWJ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:59:01 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] I need your HELP for my final task Geoff, I'm sure you'll be able to find your answers quickly. Contact Chris Baer an archivist at the Hagley Museum of Technology in Wilmington, Delaware (south of Philadelphia, Northeast of Baltimore & Washington D.C.) The Hagley and the State Museum of Pennsylvania in Harrisaburg (northwest of Washington D.C.) are the two repositories with the most catalogues and accessible company documents. Chris Baer is the resident Pennsylvania Railroad expert at the Hagley Museum and has been doing some research into PRR passenger service. Now you realize that the GG-1s and Pennsy's electrified lines extended west only to Harrisburg. In 1944 rom there west it was pulled by steam, either 4-8-2 M1 or M1a Mountains or 4-6-2 K4 or K5 Pacifics west to Pittsburgh or Crestline, halfway across Ohio but out of the mountains. There one of the massive (140' long with tender) and sleek Raymond Lowrey-styled art deco T1 4-4-4-4 or the absolutely huge 4-6-6-4 S1 "World's Fair" engine could be hooked up for high stepping 100+ mph (160+ kmph) run across the glacikated till plains in Ohio and Indiana to Chicago. good hunting!!! Tom V. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:24:30 -0500 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] I need your HELP for my final task I would wonder if 1944 is a good year since it was wartime and probably had the highest traffic levels. I do not know what your comparitive anaylsis is but I would want to make sure the base is correct for the comparison. Bennett Levin LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > > Geoff, > > I'm sure you'll be able to find your answers quickly. Contact Chris Baer an archivist at the Hagley Museum of Technology in Wilmington, Delaware (south of Philadelphia, Northeast of Baltimore & Washington D.C.) > The Hagley and the State Museum of Pennsylvania in Harrisaburg (northwest of Washington D.C.) are the two repositories with the most catalogues and accessible company documents. > Chris Baer is the resident Pennsylvania Railroad expert at the Hagley Museum and has been doing some research into PRR passenger service. > Now you realize that the GG-1s and Pennsy's electrified lines extended west only to Harrisburg. In 1944 rom there west it was pulled by steam, either 4-8-2 M1 or M1a Mountains or 4-6-2 K4 or K5 Pacifics west to Pittsburgh or Crestline, halfway across Ohio but out of the mountains. There one of the massive (140' long with tender) and sleek Raymond Lowrey-styled art deco T1 4-4-4-4 or the absolutely huge 4-6-6-4 S1 "World's Fair" engine could be hooked up for high stepping 100+ mph (160+ kmph) run across the glacikated till plains in Ohio and Indiana to Chicago. > > good hunting!!! > Tom V. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: [PRR] Models on Ebay Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:00:18 +1100 Gang, I have just listed my 11 car Congressional Train on ebay. The Eddress is:- http://cgi.ebay.com.au/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1113254246 Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy train phones Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:19:44 +1100 Gang, I beleive the Train Phone System was in effect a very simple transformer, actually an "air gap transformer". The two "primary & coils" being the "handrails" and the distance from the wires to the "handrails" obviously the air gap. The medium of transfering the signal across was a magnetism field just like in a transformer. The amount of signal transferred across must have been very small as "air gap transformers" are not very efficient, hence the amplifier on loco's and cabooses. The same effect happens in long lines of aerial cable in telephone systems where the speech from one pair of wires is induced into an adjacent pair of wires, this is called "crosstalk". Telephone engineers went to a lot of trouble to get rid of this. As for using the rails I have never heard of this and believe it is wrong. Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "mandp" Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy train phones Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:40:34 -0500 I have no idea about an air gap transformer, do you mean an air gap capacitor? Transformers tend to have primary and secondary windings, step-up or step-down being the two types of transformers in use, line isolation or equally coupled transformers are used in audio applications to reduce noise, i.e. induction. As was mentioned before the Pennsy used induction as a "free carrier" to provide communication over short distances, the coils were indeed receiving coils, they provided a means to receive the impulses from the telegraph lines running parallel to the tracks. This is the same reason the transmitters, handrail looking device atop cars and locos, were parallel with the tracks. The similarity between this system and telephone lines aren't even close, telephone lines typically use -48 VDC, the negative is from when the cable sheath was lead, this had a repelling effect from hard minerals within the atmosphere and earth which would have quickly deteriorated the sheathing. Although inductance could cause cross talk, this is usually not the case. Cable is now used in pairs, more specifically twisted pairs, the twist in the cable counter-acts with the inductance. As mentioned before, in order to induce the lines should be parallel and no twists. In order to effectively use this means of induction for communications purposes the receiving coils and transmitters would need to be tuned in order to send and receive. Hope this clears up some questions. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 22:02:22 -0600 (CST) From: Bruce F Smith Subject: Re: [PRR] Kit Instructions On Sat, 17 Feb 2001, Christopher Chany wrote: > Awhile ago I aquired at a swap meet two items. The first is a Bowser > T1(built but not painted). The tender streamlining is riveted to the > frame in the area right behind the cab roof. Chris, That's an older Bowser kit. Sorry to say that there isn't too much "right" about it, although the tender actually represents a more common prototype than the tender currently offered. The locomotive was redisigned significant, and improved in the re-release a couple years back. Happy Rails Bruce ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy train phones Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:30:23 +1100 No I do not mean an air gap capacitor although there would be some capacitance in the circuit just as in a "normal" transformer. An air gap transformer is just that a transformer with an "air gap" instead of a soft iron core!! The principal of a transfoprmer is to lay 2 wires side by side and induce ac current between the 2. Exactly like the Train phones "Hand rails" and the parrellel wire on the poles. Either one could be the primary and secondary depending on which side the message is produced!! A "normal" transformer just rolls up the wires into a coil and adds a core (usually soft iron) to increase the magnetic field and therefore the efficiency of the transfer of power. The coils were used in the induction system just to increase the magnetic field so that transfer of the signal was improved. The fact that telephone systems uses -48V dc is irrelevant as this was the voltage used in the exchages and what was on the wires was usually a lot lower voltage. As for crosstalk not being a problem I was primarily talking of "open wire lines" which have little probles with inductance because the wires of each pair are crossed at intervals to stop crosstalk. see below a rough diagram of a ploe system with four circuits:- ===x===x===x===x===x===x===x===x===x===x===x===x===x===x===x===x===x===x===x ===x=== =======x=======x======x=======x=======x=======x======x=======x=======x====== =x=== ===============x==============x==============x==============x=============== x=== ==============================x=============================x=============== === The "=" indicates a pair of wires and the "x" indicates where the wires cross usually but not always at a pole. This crossing the wires means that the induce crosstalk in a pair of wires before a cross would be equal and opposite the induced crosstalk in the same pair of wires past the cross and therefore cancel each other out. Twisting the wires in "twisted pair or triple or quad, etc" cables does the same thing and in virtually the same way. Different layers of pairs are twisted and rolled in oppsite directions even so it is still possible to get a good deal of induced crosstalk in a cable especially if the pair is "unbalanced". Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. > I have no idea about an air gap transformer, do you mean an air gap > capacitor? Transformers tend to have primary and secondary windings, step-up > or step-down being the two types of transformers in use, line isolation or > equally coupled transformers are used in audio applications to reduce noise, > i.e. induction. As was mentioned before the Pennsy used induction as a "free > carrier" to provide communication over short distances, the coils were > indeed receiving coils, they provided a means to receive the impulses from > the telegraph lines running parallel to the tracks. This is the same reason > the transmitters, handrail looking device atop cars and locos, were parallel > with the tracks. The similarity between this system and telephone lines > aren't even close, telephone lines typically use -48 VDC, the negative is > from when the cable sheath was lead, this had a repelling effect from hard > minerals within the atmosphere and earth which would have quickly > deteriorated the sheathing. Although inductance could cause cross talk, this > is usually not the case. Cable is now used in pairs, more specifically > twisted pairs, the twist in the cable counter-acts with the inductance. As > mentioned before, in order to induce the lines should be parallel and no > twists. In order to effectively use this means of induction for > communications purposes the receiving coils and transmitters would need to > be tuned in order to send and receive. Hope this clears up some questions. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: [PRR] Models on Ebay Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:10:55 +1100 Gang, A few more models on Ebay ALCo Models PRR P5a http://cgi.ebay.com.au/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1113508423 ALCo Models PRR P5a Modified http://cgi.ebay.com.au/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1113511274 And another ALCo Models PRR P5a Modified http://cgi.ebay.com.au/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1113513302 Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 14:22:48 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] BOWSER H9 & E4 repowering, PRR Genesis steam Doug, Bruce & All, Thanks for the input. Bruce according to Walthers' 2000 catalogue It was Accurate LIghting that took over sales, at least, of the Helix humper/locomotion re-power kits. I'll chrvk them again but the last I looked Walthers web sites was listing hobby stores to which the kits had been shipped. That looks pretty bad. I think I'll just cut my losses and take home that PRR USRA light mike. All five lived at McCullough yard and elsewhere in Cincinnati so having one travel to Xenia and Cincinnati from time-to-time ain't toooo far fetched. Now just how does one bash a Bowser H9 into that far more common sight on Lines West, an H-10? Its length was probably the main reason that the H-10 "Consolidation the largest steam loco allowed on the 70-mile Cincinati, Lebanon, & Northern and the Dayton, Lebanon & Cincinnati that ran from Dayton's Union Station to the east side of downtown Cincinnati. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: PKMac101@aol.com Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:11:56 EST Subject: [PRR] HTML test List. Just trying to see if I have gotten around a HTML problrem. Thanks. PM ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:47:12 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy train phones (I'm paraphrasing an article that ran in the RR Trade Press when the train pohone was installed. Sound Technical Article.) GAS wrote: > I was discussing the train phones with a fellow PRR friend and we got around > to how they worked an both learned we were a bit ignorant about them. We > have seen a video that stated the transmission was via the rail. Sort of. An RF (LF, actually) loop was established so that any paralleling line wires and the rails formf AT THAT FREQ a closed loop. Basically it was a ginat air core transformer system. It would work Just Fine in the elctrified zones (and did so, where installed). In fact that was a design parameter... Simply couple to the overhead. (Use appropriately rated insulation on the isiolation... Similar systems were/are used to piggbback phone circuits on power circuits.) > But how was this done? This has been more or less covered. Tx and Rx sets at each lineside station wer coupled to a loop formed by the rails and any available linewires. > What was the purpose of the large railing like antennae and the > twin coils? In each case, to establish a 'secondary' (primary, when the train was transmitting) toi the air cour transformer formed as above. The differing forms of antennas wer a function whaere they were mounted. long rails fit well on diesels, tenders. 'pot like' coils fit well on cabo...errrr.....cabin cars.... There was a portable one, analagous to a modern walkie talkie, with the in the form of a 36" or so loop. In each case, there were multiple turns of wire within a common outer covering. > Can anyone decribe how the mechanism worked? FM, two (3?) freqs around 25 and 50 KHz. (yes: KHz....). Coupling via induction (air core transfromer as above). > How was the sound transmitted and recieved via the rail? On a carrier. Just like radio. > What happened at rail joints, they weren't welded together back then. If trainphone was in use they used the standard signalling bonds, required by the track circuit for the block signals. > Was there some kind of amplifier? Where? The wayside and train equipment was a radio transmitter/receiver, feeding a Rather Unusual form of 'antenna', due to the frequency chosen best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy train phones Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:00:11 +1100 Woops, I have been saying "air gap" when I meant "Air Core" Sorry!! Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 00:47:30 EST Subject: [PRR] Tichy War emergency gondola (G28A?) Just picked one of these up at the Madison, WI train show (about three times bigger this year). Beautiful kit, but I have a few questions. I believe this represents PRR class G28A (as well as other roads) . Before I search through 27 years of Keystones (I don't immediately find it on the index on KC Crossings), is there any coverage of these cars there which might indicate the brake wheel arrangement? As modeled in the kit ,there is a bracket for mounting this, but I seem to recall in the dim recesses of my brain that Pennsy didn't do it that way. The photo which accompanies the online diagrams doesn't show any brake wheel or lever, naturally must be on the other end, unless it is recessed and I can't see it. Yeah, I know, there was only one left by October 1948, but this is truly a state of the art kit--finest stirrup steps I have seen molded on--gotta have one. Hate to have to do it in the N-word (NYC). Failing this information track, has one of the model magazines done an article on this kit and the prototypes? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 23:00:52 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Re: Bowser H9s to H10s conversion Hello list, There should be messages in the PRR-talk archives about my H9s to H10s conversion. I'll give you the short version here. I wanted a model of H10s 7688, which reposes at Strasburg. Depending on the particular H10s you want, you may have more work ahead of you. I started by removing the cylinder relief valves from the cylinders; only H9s engines had these. I got my H9s in 1988; it came with the low sided version of Bowser's old high sided tender. I added a Lines West coal bunker kit from Bowser (I now believe this is incorrect for stoker fired H10s engines, but I'd like to be proven wrong). The 7688 has similar running boards to the Bowser H9s; some H10s engines had single phase compressors and other detail variations; consult photos of your particular engine. I added cab braces (per Tom Busack's December 1990 MR article on detailing an E6s; the cab braces also look great under an H9s or H10s), a stoker, and a myriad of other detail parts not found in Bowser's H9s superdetail kit. I also got a little dense and replaced the cast on cab with an MDC plastic cab. This was a pain in the neck, and I'll only recommend it to the truly dedicated. I repowered my engine with the then-extant Alco Products repower kit, and I'm very pleased with the resulting engine; I have used her in both freight and passenger service. It's fun to watch her scurry about with her little 62" drivers revolving madly while towing a brace of P70 coaches. Naturally, where she looks frantic, my K4s and E6s engines look regal.... Doug --- LINESWEST@aol.com wrote: > Doug, Bruce & All, > > Thanks for the input. Bruce according to > Walthers' 2000 catalogue It was Accurate LIghting > that took over sales, at least, of the Helix > humper/locomotion re-power kits. I'll chrvk them > again but the last I looked Walthers web sites was > listing hobby stores to which the kits had been > shipped. That looks pretty bad. > I think I'll just cut my losses and take home > that PRR USRA light mike. All five lived at > McCullough yard and elsewhere in Cincinnati so > having one travel to Xenia and Cincinnati from > time-to-time ain't toooo far fetched. > Now just how does one bash a Bowser H9 into that > far more common sight on Lines West, an H-10? Its > length was probably the main reason that the H-10 > "Consolidation the largest steam loco allowed on > the 70-mile Cincinati, Lebanon, & Northern and the > Dayton, Lebanon & Cincinnati that ran from Dayton's > Union Station to the east side of downtown > Cincinnati. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 07:33:29 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: Re: [PRR] Tichy War emergency gondola (G28A?) Bob and List Just got our intial shipment of the Tichy war emergency gons and took a look at one based on your comments. There is a two-part series on these cars in the January and February, 1990 issues of Model Railroading. The first part has the prototype photos and the second part has a modeling article. You are correct in observing that the mounting bracket for the brake wheel is not quite right for Pennsy in the Tichy kit. The 1/90 MRG article has pictures of both sides of a Pennsy car (class G-30) and you can see that the lever-type brake handle is mounted directly to the end/side member much like the installation on a Protot 2000 gon. There might be better pictures around but this is the first reference material that came to mind. If doing the Tichy car in Pennsy, don't forget the National Type B trucks. Frank Brua Bobspf@aol.com wrote: > Just picked one of these up at the Madison, WI train show (about three times > bigger this year). Beautiful kit, but I have a few questions. I believe this > represents PRR class G28A (as well as other roads) . Before I search > through 27 years of Keystones (I don't immediately find it on the index on KC > Crossings), is there any coverage of these cars there which might indicate > the brake wheel arrangement? As modeled in the kit ,there is a bracket for > mounting this, but I seem to recall in the dim recesses of my brain that > Pennsy didn't do it that way. The photo which accompanies the online diagrams > doesn't show any brake wheel or lever, naturally must be on the other end, > unless it is recessed and I can't see it. > Yeah, I know, there was only one left by October 1948, but this is truly a > state of the art kit--finest stirrup steps I have seen molded on--gotta have > one. Hate to have to do it in the N-word (NYC). > > Failing this information track, has one of the model magazines done an > article on this kit and the prototypes? > > Bob Zoeller > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:40:54 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] BOWSER H9 & E4 repowering, PRR Genesis steam From: "Donald E. Harper, Jr" > Thanks for the input. Bruce according to Walthers' 2000 catalogue It > was Accurate LIghting that took over sales, at least, of the Helix > humper/locomotion re-power kits. I'll chrvk them again but the last I > looked Walthers web sites was listing hobby stores to which the kits had > been shipped. That looks pretty bad. Took over or continued to offer? The first motor I purchased (for my E6) was from Accurate Lighting. Imagine my surprise when I ordered the first I1 motor from Helix and found it to be virtually identical to the Accurate Lighting motor. Whatever happened, I'm glad someone is offering them. They are nice motors. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:08:28 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PRR-Talk / Cyber Division Get-Together at PRRT&HS Convention From: Jerry Britton In prior years, members of PRR-Talk and the Cyber Division have had dinner get-togethers on Friday night at the conventions. This year they have a very narrow gap in the schedule (only 1.5 hours) and layout tours haven't even been announced yet. Might I suggest, instead, that we do a "breakfast" get-together, either at the hotel or off-site? Living locally, I can certainly make arrangements. Anyone game? Could be either Friday morning or Saturday morning. Either day, events start at 10 a.m., so we could meet at 7:30 or 8. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:56:40 -0500 (EST) From: chaslett@cse.l-3com.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR-Talk / Cyber Division Get-Together at PRRT&HS Sounds good to me. Had to pick-and-choose last year and that was a little disappointing. Carl Haslett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:11:58 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy train phones Graeme, Thanks for the clarification. My interpretation of the term "air gap" transformer is that it implies that the iron core has a narrow, physical gap cut across the laminations at one point. This limits the magnetic field and induces saturation at some predetermined load level. It is/was required by UL in doorbell and toy train transformers, to name a couple of examples. Should the secondary be shorted, its voltage is severely dropped, limiting the fault current. Steve Bartlett Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy train phones From: "Graeme Nitz" Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:00:11 +1100 Woops, I have been saying "air gap" when I meant "Air Core" Sorry!! Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "mandp" Subject: [PRR] PRR Lamps Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:26:52 -0500 Wondering if anyone can shed some light on the time frames of when the Pennsy switched between the old square body markers, the round single lense, and finally to the battery operated ones. It seems that no one knows who manufactured the old square body models, any ideas? And listed before about how to paint a caboose someone mentioned the markers were always yellow, if this is true then why did I find an original square body in black original paint? This paint was original with nothing underneath, found in Altoona years back. I recently got a copy of volume 2 of railroad lighting hoping this would answer my questions but the info on these lamps is inaccurate, two and three lense lamps are listed but both of mine are four lense with only the original three holes in the mounting bracket. Any info greatly appreciated. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Tichy War emergency gondola (G28A?) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:28:37 -0600 Bob--Rob's page at http://prr.railfan.net/freight/classpage.html?class=G30 also lists a truck called Barrett-Whitehead on lots of cars. Great to have another PRR prototype. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:37:05 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: [PRR] PRR tugboats Howdy Y'all, Based on some careful looking at the few photos available to me (PP3, Hudson to Horseshoe), I think that the Walther's diesel tug model could be converted into a PRR prototype tugboat with a little work. So...I wonder if any of y'all might have additional photographs or drawings of PRR tugboats. In particular, I am interested in backdating the tug slightly to a steam powered model. The specifics on the Walthers tug are: Length, water line: 97' Length, over all: 126' Beam, water line: 27' Any assistance would be most appreciated! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 14:15:03 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] BOWSER H9 & E4 repowering, PRR Genesis steam In a message dated 2/19/01 8:52:13 AM Central Standard Time, harperd@tamug.tamu.edu writes (re remotoring) : << Whatever happened, I'm glad someone is offering them. >> Only one I find listed on the web at Walthers is the T1 with an indefinite date next to the listing. I don't see any others listed anymore. I have a question in to Bowser, but anyone know what the current draw is on their new skew-wound motors? Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 14:37:52 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR tugboats In a message dated 2/19/01 12:47:00 PM Central Standard Time, smithbf@mail.auburn.edu writes: << So...I wonder if any of y'all might have additional photographs or drawings of PRR tugboats. In particular, I am interested in backdating the tug slightly to a steam powered model. >> Try Summer 1993 Keystone if you can get one. If I get time later, I will check the dimensions you mention. I'm interested in building one as well,but it is No. 87 on the list of projects. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jim Lucas Subject: [PRR] BRASS LOCO'S: Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:11:30 -0000 LIST: I will be grateful for any help, information or suggestions you brass experts can give to someone with no brass knowledge at all. Have been offered three loco's for about $900. for them all. Two non runners and well worn and the other one, the PFM in very condition. 1) a L1 by PFM (United Models); 2) a N1S by GEM (Samhongsa Models); 3) a M1B by Seciko Models: All are painted and still in original boxes and possible ten plus years old. The M1B is paired with I think a 210-F-75 tender. I do not think it will take much to get the two non runners working but they are both (non runners) well used. I would appreciate your help, not so many people to ask for help this side the water!! As Bristol is GWR territory. Kindest Regards James Lucas. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "sam cali" Subject: [PRR] on-line interlocking diagrams Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:21:14 -0000 About a month ago someone put up a link to a page with diagrams of PRR interlockings. I must have accidentally deleted it from my files, I cant find it now. Could some please send me the link? Thanks, Sam _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:39:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] BRASS LOCO'S: Jim, I will take a shot in helping you determine if this is $900.00 purchase is a good value. Each of the locos you listed are at least 30 years old. The Gem Seiko is the oldest at early-mid 1960's. The L1, depending on what year model and the Gem N1 are from the late 60's early 70's time period. I don't have my value book handy to give exact dates. At $900.00 that breaks down to $300.00 each. All are good entry level brass models. All 3 have been imported by other companies. If I were you I would try to go for the PFM L1 only. $300.00 is a fair price for that one. It is also a very well done representation of the PRR L1. The Gem N1 is OK. A better choice would be a Westside N1, about $400.00 or the $1000.00 Challenger N1 Import. The Gem M1, being an early import it has been improved on with other newer Imports as well. Again a good entry level model but you can do better. Westside, Sunset imported reasonably priced ones as well as Challenger Imports with their $1300.00 version. Being the M1 and the N1 are not runnng they may have serious flaws. The PFM you say does run. Bottom line, I would look into purchasing the PFM L1 only. $300.00 isn't bad. Or if you have the $900.00 to spend go after 1 really nice new Import such as the Key I1's, Railwork K4 or L1. You may have nothing but headaches buying old used Brass.....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] on-line interlocking diagrams Date: Mon, 19 Feb 101 16:40:46 -0500 (EST) sam cali scribit: > > About a month ago someone put up a link to a page with diagrams of PRR > interlockings. I must have accidentally deleted it from my files, I cant > find it now. Could some please send me the link? Sam, my set (rather extensive) has just been moved over to Jerry's site. You can find it at http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk/ -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:39:20 -0600 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] BRASS LOCO'S: Jim: The PFM is a dandy loco for the price. I have an N1s by Samhongsa that was imported by Westside that is also a nice loco. Can't speak for the M1b. All in all, I'd say the price doesn't sound bad, as long as you're not talking basket cases. If the bearings or rods are worn you may have a bit of a problem getting them to run smoothly. If the bearing slots in the frame are sloppy you'll have the same problem. All this is fixable but can end up being more work than what you bargained for. I have some very used PFM L1's that still run like champs. My Samhongsa, although not up to Sammy's current standards, is one of my favorites and runs great. You do take a chance when buying the older used models, but then again, you do that when you ,buy a car as well. Good luck, Larry Jim Lucas wrote: > LIST: > > I will be grateful for any help, information or suggestions you brass > experts can give to someone with no brass knowledge at all. Have been > offered three loco's for about $900. for them all. Two non runners and well > worn and the other one, the PFM in very condition. > 1) a L1 by PFM (United Models); 2) a N1S by GEM (Samhongsa Models); 3) a > M1B by Seciko Models: > All are painted and still in original boxes and possible ten plus years > old. The M1B is paired with I think a 210-F-75 tender. > I do not think it will take much to get the two non runners working but > they are both (non runners) well used. > > I would appreciate your help, not so many people to ask for help this side > the water!! As Bristol is GWR territory. > > Kindest Regards > > James Lucas. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Price" Subject: Re: [PRR] BRASS LOCO'S: Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:07:02 -0000 >LIST: > >I will be grateful for any help, information or suggestions you brass >experts can give to someone with no brass knowledge at all. Have been >offered three loco's for about $900. for them all. Two non runners and well Here's MY experience with these models as I have two of each >worn and the other one, the PFM in very condition. >1) a L1 by PFM (United Models); Really Nice model and built real well. If it doesn't run it usually doesn't take much to get in working. PFM imported several runs with different versions of these. The last run is the most desirable but I'd take any of them. 2) a N1S by GEM (Samhongsa Models); This too is a nice model built really well. The only problem I've had is the little ladder above the pilot breaking. 3) a >M1B by Seciko Models: These for me were nightmares. Parts were never originally soldered very well, bind in the running gear, poor motors and gearboxes. I eneded up resoldering new parts to my models or reusing some of the originals. One one of the models the paper on the insulated drivers were deteriating to the point of shorts. With Careful removal and some epoxy I got it to work very well. Also the zamax? for the drivers is really brittle. I ended up redrilling and tapping the screws for the side rods and using some locktite to keep it all together. In my opinion these models are a remotor and regear must. Alot of patience was required to get mine right. One of them took me several months as I would get frustrated and leave is set for a while Ed >All are painted and still in original boxes and possible ten plus years >old. The M1B is paired with I think a 210-F-75 tender. >I do not think it will take much to get the two non runners working but >they are both (non runners) well used. > >I would appreciate your help, not so many people to ask for help this side >the water!! As Bristol is GWR territory. > >Kindest Regards > >James Lucas. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] BRASS LOCO'S: Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:48:09 -0500 James: I currently have all of the engines that you are referring to so I have a first hand knowledge of these models in there mint condition. The Seiko M-1b was imported by Gem Models in 1968. Seiko is the famous watch maker from Japan and did make a handful of brass engines in the late 1960's. The N-1 was also another Gem import from the early 1971 or 1974. This was Samhongsa's first brass engine. The PFM L-1 was produced by the thousands from the mid 1960's to the mid 1970's. There make be some features in your L-1 model to indicate on if it was an early or late PFM model. But that maybe difficult to determine. Still, it is a great model. All three for $900.......hhhmmmmm. Assuming that the two non-runners only need a new can motor (which can be acquired in the $25-45 range) and that the paint jobs are pretty good, I think that $900 for all of them is a tempting price. It averages out to $300 apiece. One fly in the ointment is the well worn statement. Are the driver surfaces worn down to the brass? That may effect the overall conductivity. But if new motors are the only thing that these engines need, I think that it may be worth your while. But, please get a second or third opinion! :) I hope that his helps you. Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana -----Original Message----- From: Jim Lucas [mailto:jr.lucas@virginnet.co.uk] Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 4:12 PM To: 'prr-talk@dsop.com' Subject: [PRR] BRASS LOCO'S: LIST: I will be grateful for any help, information or suggestions you brass experts can give to someone with no brass knowledge at all. Have been offered three loco's for about $900. for them all. Two non runners and well worn and the other one, the PFM in very condition. 1) a L1 by PFM (United Models); 2) a N1S by GEM (Samhongsa Models); 3) a M1B by Seciko Models: All are painted and still in original boxes and possible ten plus years old. The M1B is paired with I think a 210-F-75 tender. I do not think it will take much to get the two non runners working but they are both (non runners) well used. I would appreciate your help, not so many people to ask for help this side the water!! As Bristol is GWR territory. Kindest Regards James Lucas. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:56:12 -0500 From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." Subject: [PRR] Re: [CYBER] PRR-Talk / Cyber Division Get-Together at You might pick up a few more people if you do it on Saturday. You can catch the folks who come in on Friday. John Ryan Jerry Britton wrote: > In prior years, members of PRR-Talk and the Cyber Division have had dinner > get-togethers on Friday night at the conventions. > > This year they have a very narrow gap in the schedule (only 1.5 hours) and > layout tours haven't even been announced yet. > > Might I suggest, instead, that we do a "breakfast" get-together, either at > the hotel or off-site? > > Living locally, I can certainly make arrangements. Anyone game? Could be > either Friday morning or Saturday morning. Either day, events start at 10 > a.m., so we could meet at 7:30 or 8. > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > This list ("Cyber-Talk") is for discussion of Cyber Chapter (PRRT&HS) > business only. All general modeling and/or Pennsy discussion should > take place on "PRR-Talk". For assistance with this list, send the > message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > To access the "Members Only" section of the web site, click on a link and, > when prompted, enter the user name "member" and the password "standardrr". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Roy Breon" Subject: [PRR] Newberry Yard (PA) Question Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:29:18 -0500 At a NRHS meeting last week, I picked up a nice picture of a NYCRR Mohawk (4-8-2 No. 2606) being serviced at Newberry Yard. Part of the captions says, "After the engine has been serviced, it will be turned and sent back north through Pine Creek Gorge with a fast freight". Don't go away. Keep reading to find out why I'm asking a question about NYC on PRR-Talk. Makes me wonder how they were turned? Was there a turntable at Newberry? I would think that a yard as important as Newberry would have had one, especially since it was the end of the line for the NYCRR and the Reading. Maybe it did. I know that the PRR (NS) has a wye on the south side of the Nesbit Bridge across the Susquehanna, just west of Newberry. I believe they may also have had one at the start of the Elmira Branch in Newberry. Did they? Did the NYC have trackage rights to turn their engines on PRR track? I remember that NYC had trackage rights from Newberry Yard a few miles east into Williamsport on the Reading. They used to share the Reading Station that was near the Market Street Bridge. Bowser used to have a gallery of Vanucci RR photos around Williamsport on their web site. I think there was an aerial shot of Newberry Yard there. Might reveal a turntable. I thought I read that the photos were removed from the web site though. Roy Breon Pittsford, NY roybreon@netzero.net Shop online without a credit card http://www.rocketcash.com RocketCash, a NetZero subsidiary ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> Subject: Re: [PRR] Newberry Yard (PA) Question Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:59:12 -0500 Yes There is a big turntable and roundhouse in Newberry. I also have that picture that shows it. If interested let me know and I will E-Mail it to you. I vaguely remember the place when we would go to Renovo to see my grandparents. When my dad gets back from Fla. I can get more info on the area if you want. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Breon" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 9:29 PM Subject: [PRR] Newberry Yard (PA) Question > At a NRHS meeting last week, I picked up a nice picture of a NYCRR Mohawk > (4-8-2 No. 2606) being serviced at Newberry Yard. Part of the captions > says, "After the engine has been serviced, it will be turned and sent back > north through Pine Creek Gorge with a fast freight". > > Don't go away. Keep reading to find out why I'm asking a question about NYC > on PRR-Talk. > > Makes me wonder how they were turned? Was there a turntable at Newberry? I > would think that a yard as important as Newberry would have had one, > especially since it was the end of the line for the NYCRR and the Reading. > Maybe it did. I know that the PRR (NS) has a wye on the south side of the > Nesbit Bridge across the Susquehanna, just west of Newberry. I believe they > may also have had one at the start of the Elmira Branch in Newberry. Did > they? Did the NYC have trackage rights to turn their engines on PRR track? > I remember that NYC had trackage rights from Newberry Yard a few miles east > into Williamsport on the Reading. They used to share the Reading Station > that was near the Market Street Bridge. Bowser used to have a gallery of > Vanucci RR photos around Williamsport on their web site. I think there was > an aerial shot of Newberry Yard there. Might reveal a turntable. I thought > I read that the photos were removed from the web site though. > > > Roy Breon > Pittsford, NY > roybreon@netzero.net > > > > > > Shop online without a credit card > http://www.rocketcash.com > RocketCash, a NetZero subsidiary > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:50:14 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR tugboats Bruce, You might check the Society for back issues of the Keystone. There was one issue in the mid 80s dedicated to PRR tugs. It had several plans, lots of fotos and half a dozen great Steven Cryan paintings. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: > > Howdy Y'all, > > Based on some careful looking at the few photos available to me (PP3, > Hudson to Horseshoe), I think that the Walther's diesel tug model could be > converted into a PRR prototype tugboat with a little work. So...I wonder > if any of y'all might have additional photographs or drawings of PRR > tugboats. In particular, I am interested in backdating the tug slightly to > a steam powered model. > > The specifics on the Walthers tug are: > Length, water line: 97' > Length, over all: 126' > Beam, water line: 27' > > Any assistance would be most appreciated! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:55:06 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR tugboats Amending my previous post on the subject, the principle article on PRR tugboats was in Spring 1992 Keystone. Summer 1993 contained PRR barge and LIRR tug info. Inre comparisons with commercial models, 69 tugs were built in 20th Century, ranging in length from 62 to 142 feet, beam 11 to 33 feet. One needs to look at a specific tug to compare with the Walthers or Sheepscot models. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Laird" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR tugboats Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:14:25 -0600 Thomas Flagg's recent book, "New York Harbor Railroads, In Color" (available from Jerry), has 10 pages of color photographs of PRR marine equipment, many of them tugboats. Another excellent reference for rail-marine information is RMIG (the Rail Marine Information Group), see their web site at: www.trainweb.org/rmig. They publish a quarterly publication, "Transfer", which over the years has published a great deal of information on railroad tugs and a lot of PRR specific rail-marine information on equipment and operations. There is a complete index of "Transfer" on the RMIG web site and back issues are available. I have been a member of RMIG for several years and have a complete collection of "Transfer". If you find specific articles in the index that you would like copied, I will be happy to do so. I highly recommend membership in RMIG ($25/year which includes four issues of "Transfer"), for anyone with an interest in rail-marine. I personally find PRR rail-marine operations one of the most interesting aspects of our beloved railroad and plan a large harbor terminal in my currently under design layout. It will have a couple of transfer bridges where carfloats can dock and load and unload rolling stock (an excellent way of getting rolling stock on and off the layout). Bill.Laird@usa.net Bruce Smith wrote: > Based on some careful looking at the few photos available to me (PP3, > Hudson to Horseshoe), I think that the Walther's diesel tug model could be > converted into a PRR prototype tugboat with a little work. So...I wonder > if any of y'all might have additional photographs or drawings of PRR > tugboats. In particular, I am interested in backdating the tug slightly to > a steam powered model. > > The specifics on the Walthers tug are: > Length, water line: 97' > Length, over all: 126' > Beam, water line: 27' > > Any assistance would be most appreciated! > > Happy Rails > Bruce > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Newberry Yard (PA) Question Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:04:02 -0500 PRR had a wye at Newberry Jcn, start of the Elmira Branch - just a half mile or so east of Newberry Yard. NYC probably had a turntable at Avis, a few miles to the west. I didn't know NYC had trackage rights to the Reading Station - you'd think with all the info I'm collecting on Williamsport I'd have stumbled across that one! Thanks! Got any other info on Williamsport? Pictures are back on the Bowser web site. (Or at least were there a few days ago!) Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. & downtown Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Breon" To: "PRR-Talk" Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 9:29 PM Subject: [PRR] Newberry Yard (PA) Question > At a NRHS meeting last week, I picked up a nice picture of a NYCRR Mohawk > (4-8-2 No. 2606) being serviced at Newberry Yard. Part of the captions > says, "After the engine has been serviced, it will be turned and sent back > north through Pine Creek Gorge with a fast freight". > > Don't go away. Keep reading to find out why I'm asking a question about NYC > on PRR-Talk. > > Makes me wonder how they were turned? Was there a turntable at Newberry? I > would think that a yard as important as Newberry would have had one, > especially since it was the end of the line for the NYCRR and the Reading. > Maybe it did. I know that the PRR (NS) has a wye on the south side of the > Nesbit Bridge across the Susquehanna, just west of Newberry. I believe they > may also have had one at the start of the Elmira Branch in Newberry. Did > they? Did the NYC have trackage rights to turn their engines on PRR track? > I remember that NYC had trackage rights from Newberry Yard a few miles east > into Williamsport on the Reading. They used to share the Reading Station > that was near the Market Street Bridge. Bowser used to have a gallery of > Vanucci RR photos around Williamsport on their web site. I think there was > an aerial shot of Newberry Yard there. Might reveal a turntable. I thought > I read that the photos were removed from the web site though. > > > Roy Breon > Pittsford, NY > roybreon@netzero.net > > > > > > Shop online without a credit card > http://www.rocketcash.com > RocketCash, a NetZero subsidiary > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Newberry Yard (PA) Question Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:05:56 -0500 I would like to see the picture of the turntable and roundhouse in Newberry. TIA. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. & downtown Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne Dibert" <102016.1343@worldnet.att.net> To: ; "Roy Breon" Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 10:59 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Newberry Yard (PA) Question > Yes > There is a big turntable and roundhouse in Newberry. I also have that > picture that shows it. If interested let me know and I will E-Mail it to > you. I vaguely remember the place when we would go to Renovo to see my > grandparents. When my dad gets back from Fla. I can get more info on the > area if you want. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roy Breon" > To: "PRR-Talk" > Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 9:29 PM > Subject: [PRR] Newberry Yard (PA) Question > > > > At a NRHS meeting last week, I picked up a nice picture of a NYCRR Mohawk > > (4-8-2 No. 2606) being serviced at Newberry Yard. Part of the captions > > says, "After the engine has been serviced, it will be turned and sent back > > north through Pine Creek Gorge with a fast freight". > > > > Don't go away. Keep reading to find out why I'm asking a question about > NYC > > on PRR-Talk. > > > > Makes me wonder how they were turned? Was there a turntable at Newberry? > I > > would think that a yard as important as Newberry would have had one, > > especially since it was the end of the line for the NYCRR and the Reading. > > Maybe it did. I know that the PRR (NS) has a wye on the south side of the > > Nesbit Bridge across the Susquehanna, just west of Newberry. I believe > they > > may also have had one at the start of the Elmira Branch in Newberry. Did > > they? Did the NYC have trackage rights to turn their engines on PRR > track? > > I remember that NYC had trackage rights from Newberry Yard a few miles > east > > into Williamsport on the Reading. They used to share the Reading Station > > that was near the Market Street Bridge. Bowser used to have a gallery of > > Vanucci RR photos around Williamsport on their web site. I think there > was > > an aerial shot of Newberry Yard there. Might reveal a turntable. I > thought > > I read that the photos were removed from the web site though. > > > > > > Roy Breon > > Pittsford, NY > > roybreon@netzero.net > > > > > > > > > > > > Shop online without a credit card > > http://www.rocketcash.com > > RocketCash, a NetZero subsidiary > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:53:40 -0500 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Newberry Yard (PA) Question They was a Y and a turntable at Avis. The roundhouse still exists as does the shop facility with a humongous transfer table. It is a very interesting site. It is used as a rail claimation plant. The old NYC station is a suds distributer. Well worth the visit. Bill Bigler wrote: > > PRR had a wye at Newberry Jcn, start of the Elmira Branch - just a half mile > or so east of Newberry Yard. NYC probably had a turntable at Avis, a few > miles to the west. I didn't know NYC had trackage rights to the Reading > Station - you'd think with all the info I'm collecting on Williamsport I'd > have stumbled across that one! Thanks! Got any other info on Williamsport? > > Pictures are back on the Bowser web site. (Or at least were there a few > days ago!) > > Bill Bigler > Big Flats NY > Modeling PRR Renovo Div. & > downtown Williamsport WWII > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roy Breon" > To: "PRR-Talk" > Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 9:29 PM > Subject: [PRR] Newberry Yard (PA) Question > > > At a NRHS meeting last week, I picked up a nice picture of a NYCRR Mohawk > > (4-8-2 No. 2606) being serviced at Newberry Yard. Part of the captions > > says, "After the engine has been serviced, it will be turned and sent back > > north through Pine Creek Gorge with a fast freight". > > > > Don't go away. Keep reading to find out why I'm asking a question about > NYC > > on PRR-Talk. > > > > Makes me wonder how they were turned? Was there a turntable at Newberry? > I > > would think that a yard as important as Newberry would have had one, > > especially since it was the end of the line for the NYCRR and the Reading. > > Maybe it did. I know that the PRR (NS) has a wye on the south side of the > > Nesbit Bridge across the Susquehanna, just west of Newberry. I believe > they > > may also have had one at the start of the Elmira Branch in Newberry. Did > > they? Did the NYC have trackage rights to turn their engines on PRR > track? > > I remember that NYC had trackage rights from Newberry Yard a few miles > east > > into Williamsport on the Reading. They used to share the Reading Station > > that was near the Market Street Bridge. Bowser used to have a gallery of > > Vanucci RR photos around Williamsport on their web site. I think there > was > > an aerial shot of Newberry Yard there. Might reveal a turntable. I > thought > > I read that the photos were removed from the web site though. > > > > > > Roy Breon > > Pittsford, NY > > roybreon@netzero.net > > > > > > > > > > > > Shop online without a credit card > > http://www.rocketcash.com > > RocketCash, a NetZero subsidiary > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:44:58 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy train phones Hey Gizes, In my N-6 cabin car reseearch, I came across a 1913 or 1914 New York Times frotn page gee-whiz science story talking about a revolutionary telephone system the Pennsy was developing to allow engineers to talk to the conductors and brake men in the cabin car. It would transmit and receive using the rails and steel frames of the cars as conductors. Tom V. In a message dated Thu, 15 Feb 2001 9:23:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Gregg Mahlkov" writes: << List: In signaled territory, there were bonds at each rail joint. If I recall, and PRR was phasing out trainphones by the time I went to work for it, communication between locomotive and caboose might have been via the rail, but the coils and antennae were to transmit and receive via induction to the telephone lines alongside the railroad. For this reason, trainphones only worked on main lines and did not work at all in electrifed territory. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "GAS" To: "PRR talk" Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 8:09 PM Subject: [PRR] pennsy train phones > I was discussing the train phones with a fellow PRR friend and we got around > to how they worked an both learned we were a bit ignorant about them. We > have seen a video that stated the transmission was via the rail. But how was > this done? What was the purpose of the large railing like antennae and the > twin coils?Can anyone decribe how the mechanism worked? How was the sound > transmitted and recieved via the rail? What happened at rail joints, they > weren't welded together back then. Was there some kind of amplifier? > --Greg Stone > PRRT&HS member > special interest Renovo Yards > newly transferred from California to good Ole PA > > new e-mail address GASER@alltel.net > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] PRR tugboats Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:23:58 -0500 Gize, I could of sworn I read somewhere within the last 6 months that someone was coming out with a PRR Tugboat in HO(not in Brass). Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:31:20 -0800 (PST) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] Amtrak List, I'am doing a study on the PRR and Amtrak on the NYC-Chicago route for my final task at the university so I can graudate and I was wondering if there is someone on this list who works for Amtrak or has a contact at Amtrak and could help me. I need to know how many passengers Amtrak had in 2000 on the NYC-Chicago trains. If there is someone who still has the 2000 tarifs on this route, please contact me. Thanks, Geoffrey Van Dooren Modeling Eastern division 1954 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:46:27 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy train phones The reference i mentioned: Railway Signalling & Communications October 1947 On rereading it, i find an error in what i posted earlier: The 'drum' antennas were Rx on Steam. Rail antennas were Tx on Steam and TX and Rx on diesel. The rail type were specifically designed to AAR strength requirements as hand holds. Article specifies 1 5/15 coper covered steel tube with 1/4 think rubber coating. > In my N-6 cabin car reseearch, I came across a 1913 or 1914 New York Times >front page gee-whiz science story talking about a revolutionary telephone >system the Pennsy was developing to allow engineers to talk to the >conductors and brake men in the cabin car. It would transmit and receive >using the rails and steel frames of the cars as conductors. Atteptts of this sort date back to earlier. None proved practical 'til just a bit before WWII. > In a message dated Thu, 15 Feb 2001 9:23:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, >"Gregg Mahlkov" writes: > << List: > In signaled territory, there were bonds at each rail joint. If I recall, and > PRR was phasing out trainphones by the time I went to work for it, > communication between locomotive and caboose might have been via the rail, > but the coils and antennae were to transmit and receive via induction to the > telephone lines alongside the railroad. For this reason, trainphones only > worked on main lines and did not work at all in electrifed territory. Why? All that was needed was to couple to the 'knitting'. This was done, at least on a test case. Power Cos routinely used similar techniques to run voice and control over HT lines. best dwp ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:57:05 -0500 (EST) From: "H.&S." Subject: [PRR] Orangeville enginehouse(Baltimore) Hello All... I'm just about done rebuilding the Penn station area trackage on my layout (it really was'nt right the first time around) and am in the planning stage for my next section which runs from the north end of Union tunnel in Baltimore to the southern most end of Bay view yard. Most of this section although selectively compressed will feature Orangeville enginehouse and associated trackage. I hope to start the benchwork for this section this coming spring. I have a few pictures that folks have sent me (some were lost when edited on my computer), But i'm looking for anything i can find from Orangeville. This can include the coaling tower, water tower,roundhouse,turntable,loco storage tracks,enginehouse,crew dispatchers office, storeroom,sand house,pit tracks,standpipes or other buildings that were near-by (there was a large cold storage warehouse near-by) I'm planning on including as much as i can of all structures and trackage,but need good references to help me. If you have a pic or reference,please let me know. Even better if you can send it attached to a e-mail or via ICQ. My ICQ number is 13559398. Bill Knepper sent me some pics a long time ago, (some i lost editing) and Ken Meyer has sent me a partial plan. I have enough to know where most trackage is and where the roundhouse and turntable were,but i would like to get this as close as i can given the space i have. Hint: i can almost model all of it except for a few tracks. Any help is really and greatfully appreciated. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:38:18 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy train phones If, as davep's source claims, Rail antennas were ... TX and Rx on diesel. Why did early Geeps have both rail and drum antennas? -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== davep wrote: > > The reference i mentioned: > Railway Signalling & Communications > October 1947 > > On rereading it, i find an error in what i posted earlier: > The 'drum' antennas were Rx on Steam. Rail antennas were > Tx on Steam and TX and Rx on diesel. > > The rail type were specifically designed to AAR strength > requirements as hand holds. Article specifies 1 5/15 coper covered > steel tube with 1/4 think rubber coating. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:39:47 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy train phones From: Jerry Britton On 2/21/01 8:38 AM, Andy Miller (asmiller@mitre.org) wrote: > If, as davep's source claims, Rail antennas were ... TX and Rx on > diesel. Why did early Geeps have both rail and drum antennas? > -- The differentiation from rail & drum vs. dual rail was not necessarily stem vs. diesel. Diesels could be seen with either installation. > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > =================================================== > davep wrote: >> >> The reference i mentioned: >> Railway Signalling & Communications >> October 1947 >> >> On rereading it, i find an error in what i posted earlier: >> The 'drum' antennas were Rx on Steam. Rail antennas were >> Tx on Steam and TX and Rx on diesel. >> >> The rail type were specifically designed to AAR strength >> requirements as hand holds. Article specifies 1 5/15 coper covered >> steel tube with 1/4 think rubber coating. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:06:58 EST Subject: [PRR] pennsy train phones In a message dated 2/21/01 7:33:23 AM Central Standard Time, asmiller@mitre.org writes: << If, as davep's source claims, Rail antennas were ... TX and Rx on diesel. Why did early Geeps have both rail and drum antennas? >> I have seen legends on photos which claim the small "capacitor"(in HO scale, that is what they look like to me) antenna is for a yard channel. Ones I saw were on Chicago division. That doesn't mean that is correct; just what was reported. BTW, the Alco and I believe the FM roadswitchers had both types of antennas, too. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] Allentown Spring thaw Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:29:11 -0500 Listers, I'm planning to hit the Allentown Spring Thaw Train Meet Sat at 9am on my way out to Palmyra PA. from NY. Is it worth going to? Any one have any helpful hints? I'd like to get in look and get out in about 1 1/2 hrs if possible. Thanks, Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:43:51 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Convention Breakfast From: Jerry Britton Hey, another possibility for a breakfast get-together at the PRRT&HS Convention in May... Instead of meeting in a restaurant for a sit-down breakfast, how many would be interested in an "I Love the Smell of Diesel Fumes in the Morning" Bring Your Own Breakfast on the new concrete bridge overlooking the west end throat of the Enola Yard? This bridge replaced the old iron bridge and there is plenty of parking for rail fans. It's only 15 minutes from the convention hotel. There's both a McDonald's and a Dunkin Donuts on the way. We could gather on an "open house" basis from 7:30-9, providing lots of time to get back for the 10 a.m. business meeting. No other activities will be open any earlier, so you won't miss anything. My thought here is that a group can interact better than they can at a restaurant, where you typically only speak with the folks next to and across from you. This location has ample pedestrian space so everyone could move around and watch current action while discussing "the old Enola". Any opinions on the idea? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: [PRR] RE: [CYBER] Convention Breakfast Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:56:23 -0500 Jerry, Sounds like a plan! Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton [mailto:jerry@pennsyrr.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 2:44 PM To: PRR-Talk LIST; cyber-talk@dsop.com Subject: [CYBER] Convention Breakfast Hey, another possibility for a breakfast get-together at the PRRT&HS Convention in May... Instead of meeting in a restaurant for a sit-down breakfast, how many would be interested in an "I Love the Smell of Diesel Fumes in the Morning" Bring Your Own Breakfast on the new concrete bridge overlooking the west end throat of the Enola Yard? This bridge replaced the old iron bridge and there is plenty of parking for rail fans. It's only 15 minutes from the convention hotel. There's both a McDonald's and a Dunkin Donuts on the way. We could gather on an "open house" basis from 7:30-9, providing lots of time to get back for the 10 a.m. business meeting. No other activities will be open any earlier, so you won't miss anything. My thought here is that a group can interact better than they can at a restaurant, where you typically only speak with the folks next to and across from you. This location has ample pedestrian space so everyone could move around and watch current action while discussing "the old Enola". Any opinions on the idea? --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This list ("Cyber-Talk") is for discussion of Cyber Chapter (PRRT&HS) business only. All general modeling and/or Pennsy discussion should take place on "PRR-Talk". For assistance with this list, send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To access the "Members Only" section of the web site, click on a link and, when prompted, enter the user name "member" and the password "standardrr". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:40:05 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR tugboats Hi All, I wanted to thank y'all for your help and ask for some more! Bob Zoeller said: >Amending my previous post on the subject, the principle article on PRR >tugboats was in Spring 1992 Keystone. Yes, this is Volume 25 (1) and the article was by PRR-Talk's own "Captain Jack" Witmer. Unfortunately, this issue is SOLD OUT! Would someone out there be willing to photocopy the article and question and send it to me? I would of course re-imburse for your costs! In my quick review of the Walthers tug, two clear modifications appear to be needed for "backdating" to a steam tug. These would be to provide a second cabin top deck, behind the wheelhouse, that looks to be about 6-8" higher than the cabin top deck with windows all around (sort of a large clerestory - and I'm sure lighting was a major function) and replacement of the oval diesel stack with a round stack. Frankly, I was struck by the similarities between many of the tugboat photos I have seen, regardless of the built date of the tug. Happy Rails, Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:42:08 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Convention Breakfast From: Eugene Nowlan This is a great idea providing there is no rain. Might want to have a back up plan. Should we bring a scanner and FRS radio to hear the guy at the end of the bridge. Gene > From: Jerry Britton > Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:43:51 -0500 > To: PRR-Talk LIST , > Subject: [PRR] Convention Breakfast > > Hey, another possibility for a breakfast get-together at the PRRT&HS > Convention in May... > > Instead of meeting in a restaurant for a sit-down breakfast, how many would > be interested in an "I Love the Smell of Diesel Fumes in the Morning" Bring > Your Own Breakfast on the new concrete bridge overlooking the west end > throat of the Enola Yard? > > This bridge replaced the old iron bridge and there is plenty of parking for > rail fans. It's only 15 minutes from the convention hotel. There's both a > McDonald's and a Dunkin Donuts on the way. We could gather on an "open > house" basis from 7:30-9, providing lots of time to get back for the 10 a.m. > business meeting. No other activities will be open any earlier, so you won't > miss anything. > > My thought here is that a group can interact better than they can at a > restaurant, where you typically only speak with the folks next to and across > from you. This location has ample pedestrian space so everyone could move > around and watch current action while discussing "the old Enola". > > Any opinions on the idea? > --------------------------------------------------------- > Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Jim Lucas Subject: [PRR] BRASS LOCO'S Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:08:08 -0000 GENTLEMEN Many thanks for all your advice and help. I think the LI looks the business strolling around my 24x9 ft layout, PRR of course! I do believe I will end up keeping all three, will have to sent the wife out to WORK! All I need now is to finish off my Bowser G5, can anyone suggest a source to obtain photo's of G5 's. Please e-mail off list at jr.lucas@virginnet.co.uk Again many thanks. Regards James ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:33:36 -0500 Subject: [PRR] "Triumph" Series From: Jerry Britton I've been in contact with David Messer and have an update on the "Triumph" series from Roberts Publishing... "Triumph IV" is still on track for release this fall...on the Middle Division. "Triumph V" will cover the New York Division. "Triumph VI" will be on the Maryland Division. Volumes are expected to be released yearly. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF jerry@pennsyrr.com Member, PRRT&HS "Merchandise Service", a division of Desktop Solutions of Pennsylvania, Inc., is a reseller of model railroad and railroadiana products. "MS" is also host to the web site "Keystone Crossings", the domain PENNSYRR.COM, and the mailing lists "PRR-Talk", "Conrail- Talk", and "Reading-Talk". When you purchase through "MS", you are providing financial support to these Internet endeavors. Please visit our eCommerce web site at http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com. ------------------------------Thank you!----------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:23:32 -0500 From: davep Subject: Re: [PRR] pennsy train phones Andy Miller wrote: > If, as davep's source claims, Rail antennas were ... TX and Rx on > diesel. Why did early Geeps have both rail and drum antennas? Because the source (as noted) was dated _1947_. GPanythings did not exist yet... Nice pix of babyface Baldwins. Any given source can only report what was done to that date. In any case, my principal point was to correct my assertion that the Drum type (they are coils, regardless fo what they look lake...) were used for Tx on cabin cars. Where used they were for Rx. Both sets of antennas handled both freqs: (80 and 144 KHz (i looked it up). gotta refile that mag.) best dwp > =================================================== > davep wrote: > > The reference i mentioned: > > Railway Signalling & Communications > > October 1947 > > On rereading it, i find an error in what i posted earlier: > > The 'drum' antennas were Rx on Steam. Rail antennas were > > Tx on Steam and TX and Rx on diesel. > > The rail type were specifically designed to AAR strength > > requirements as hand holds. Article specifies 1 5/15 coper covered > > steel tube with 1/4 think rubber coating. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: John Cooper Subject: [PRR] Broad Street Station Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:10:17 -0800 I'm trying to put together an interlocking diagram of the tracks from Broad Street Station out through West Philadelphia. Between Harry Albrecht's book on Broad Street and some other resources, I almost have it, but I still have a couple of holes. Does anyone know of any photographs that clearly show the trackwork in the following locations? Or perhaps even have personal recollections?? The interlocking just east of the river where the three bridges over the river come together to form the chinese wall. The southern-most throat tracks where it starts to widen out for the station platforms. These tracks leading to station tracks 1,2 and 3 always seem to be in the shadows of the loading docks there. John ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:15:15 -0600 From: Larry Reynolds Subject: Re: [PRR] Allentown Spring thaw Chris: I live right outside of Allentown and at one time attended to the "Ag Hall'" meet every time chance I got. However, over the past five years or so it has reverted to a toy train meet, and unless you're into tinplate, I would not recommend it. It is a good show and well attended for the Lionel and American Flyer fans. If you like that, I'd highly recommend the trip. Regards, Larry "Chany, Christopher" wrote: > Listers, > > I'm planning to hit the Allentown Spring Thaw Train Meet Sat at 9am on my > way out to Palmyra PA. from NY. Is it worth going to? Any one have any > helpful hints? I'd like to get in look and get out in about 1 1/2 hrs if > possible. > > Thanks, > > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "James Taverna" Subject: [PRR] Overland O Scale M1a pilot Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:45:20 -0500 I jave a tough question for the group - does anyone know where I can get an O Scale Overland M1a pilot? It is the footboard version, not the cast pilot. Getting this would save me a lot of time on a modeling project. Any help is appreciated. Jim Taverna _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "taylorsouthwood" Subject: [PRR] F-7 Antenna Details Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:53:05 -0500 Have received me Athearn Genesis F-7's, an A-B-A set (thanks Jerry). Now I am wanting to add the antenna system to the roofs of the A's. My first question is, how accurate are the instructions that come with the Cal-Scale antenna supports, are the support placements correct across the roof. Secondly, how does the system travel down the rear of the car body. Any help would be appreciated as I want the added details to be worthy of the model I am putting them on. Thanks Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 02:05:06 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] F-7 Antenna Details Mark and all, taylorsouthwood@email.msn.com writes: << Have received me Athearn Genesis F-7's, an A-B-A set (thanks Jerry). Now I am wanting to add the antenna system to the roofs of the A's. My first question is, how accurate are the instructions that come with the Cal-Scale antenna supports, are the support placements correct across the roof.>> It is actually difficult to tell or compare as the photos are done on the original Athearn shell and it appears to just "look right" but they will not appear in the same place on the Genesis locomotives that is if you do them correctly. I can say this as I just sent off a completed A-B-A set to Athearn last Monday morning for an Ad Shoot after doing a crash complete for them last weekend. Mark and all how soon are you guys looking to start doing the upgrades as I am going to do another set for an article and I was going to include a set of drawings like those I did for the ALCo PA in Mainline Modeler this past January's issue? I you can wait I will have them done so that you can just take the dimensions from there. The roof code was fairly easy to crack the rear of the units are more difficult but now that I did I can do the drawings. I was lucky enough to find six good shots for the rear placement. << Secondly, how does the system travel down the rear of the car body. Any help would be appreciated as I want the added details to be worthy of the model I am putting them on. Thanks Mark>> As the conduit travels down the back you will need separate insulator blocks that are not included in the Cal Scale kit, look for either Utah Pacific plastic or brass antenna mast to cover the ones on the back. Remember, only one horn on the roof too, and their color match matched my formula right on the money, so the touch up is easy. Let me know how quickly this information needs to be put out there as I can get the drawings done and see if Al Stump can post them to our Webpage for all to review. Steve Hoxie have you tried my formula for "DGLE PRR shade" yet? It will match these units. Who else has bought these units so far? Let's hear from you. I love them. Greg Martin PS... Just a general question... I have a manufacturer intrusted in producing a Pennsy caboose and for the moment we are talking the N-8, but what I was wondering was would it perhaps be of more value to have the N-6b but then there is the underframe issue of the N-6b. Tom V. you might find that the answer to the N-6b underframe in Terra Huete, IN as Richard Burg told me that the underframes were fabricated by an outsource there, not sure who though. Which one? N6b or N-8? Thanks again, Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:33:54 +0100 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: [PRR] Baldwin VO-1000 stacks Hi list, yesterday my Steward Baldwin Switcher arrived, road # 5913. It looks really nice (in particular the cab interior, which is of unusual detail). I haven´t yet started to put the handrails etc. on, but tried to figure out what stacks would be right for that engine. I think to remember it should be one stack. Now, I did find a photo of exactly # 5913 on page 78 of Don Ball´s book 1940-50s. What this photo shows looks to me like a "5-stack-version" (fourt short stacks and on short stack where the stack for the single-stack version is). Can anybody help me to understand what happened here? What do you suggest to mount on the Steward model? And another oberservation: The color looks a bit greyish to me, not like the DGLE used by Proto 2000 or Atlas with its green shade (which I learned from this list is not correct) nor like the more black shade of the Genesis F7 (which I have seen in photos only by now). However, it is not so far from the color in the Don Ball photo. What do you think, is it a good choice of pigment? Happy rails, Burkhard Sanner Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:21:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] F-7 Antenna Details Greg, Put me down for the EF-15's. Havn't recieved mine yet but did see some. I see another upgrade that needs to be done too. If you use the coupler door cover for the lead unit that Athearn includes, 2 small latches and 2 grab irons will need to be fitted. I may modify it even more by cutting the door in half and modeling it the open position. Have you shared your DGLE paint formula publicly yet? If so I missed it. As for Cabin Cars, Go with the N8!!!! N6's will be available as a laser kit sometime down the road. At least that is what I heard. You don't want to fall into that same ole story like other companies do by having multi models of the same class hitting the market at the same time another companay releases one. I have heard no other plans of an N8 so that should be the one to go for......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:56:26 EST Subject: [PRR] N8 vs. N6b In a message dated 2/23/01 7:33:19 AM Central Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << As for Cabin Cars, Go with the N8!!!! N6's will be available as a laser kit sometime down the road. >> My vote, and my understanding, too. In addition, I am biased to a wood cabin car in a wood kit--the finishing and weathering possibilities are better, IMO. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Claus Schlund" Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:35:43 -0800 Subject: [PRR] LV steam on PRR rails Hi list members, I've got a question to ask, on a very specific bit of PRR operations history... Starting with USRA control during the WW1 era, the Lehigh Valley began running it's trains thru to Penn Station/NYC. B&O trains also ran into Penn Station, altho the B&O used the station only for a few years. Clearly the LV locomotives must have been changed out before arrival in Penn Station, since they obviously could not have run thru the tunnels. I've seen a photo of LV steam on a passenger train at the PRR Newark, NJ station. These photos were taken during the era of catenary operation into Penn Station/NYC, and presumably the LV loco delivered the eastbound train to Newark, where motive power was changed from LV steam to GG1 electrics for the run thru the tunnels. But I'm interested in the year 1929, when overhead catenary would not yet have existed on the corridor. Instead, steam powered all trains, and power was changed at Manhattan Transfer for the electric run thru the tunnels via PRR third-rail motors - classes DD1 and L5 being used for this purpose. So my question is - during the third-rail era, did LV steam run on PRR tracks all the way to Manhattan Transfer? Or did the LV steam cut off at some earlier point, being changed out for PRR steam, which would then finally be changed out for a DD1 or L5 at Manhattan Transfer? Any thoughts? The reason I ask is I'm giving serious thought to modeling Manhattan Transfer during 1929 - the third-rail era. So I'd like to know how plausible it would be for me to run LV steam into Manhattan Transfer... - Claus ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] N8 vs. N6b Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:04:30 -0500 Guys, My vote would also be for the N8 (Bowser??) I believe a plastic N6b was done several years back by Model Power (???). It just didn't look right. Too narrow or something, especially compared to a brass car or one of the wood kits that were out back then. A laser wood kit would be ideal for the N6b. Let's hope we can get both soon. Buzz PRRT&HS #271 -----Original Message----- From: Bobspf@aol.com [mailto:Bobspf@aol.com] Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 8:56 AM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] N8 vs. N6b In a message dated 2/23/01 7:33:19 AM Central Standard Time, mittner@webtv.net writes: << As for Cabin Cars, Go with the N8!!!! N6's will be available as a laser kit sometime down the road. >> My vote, and my understanding, too. In addition, I am biased to a wood cabin car in a wood kit--the finishing and weathering possibilities are better, IMO. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:01:15 -0600 Subject: Re: [PRR] F-7 Antenna Details From: "William J. Ayers" Greg and all, > Who else has bought these units so far? Let's hear from you. I love them. I got my AB F7 Genesis set last weekend and am thinking about getting a second A unit. Haven't run them on my layout as it is down for a complete rebuild, but saw them run at the store. Most impressive, quiet, smooth and they crawl better than any of my other plastic engines, and they look terrific!. I plan to add details to them and can't wait to place them in service. > Steve Hoxie have you tried my formula for "DGLE PRR shade" yet? It will > match these units. Are you going to share your DGLE formula with us "listers"? > PS... Just a general question... I have a manufacturer intrusted in > producing a Pennsy caboose and for the moment we are talking the N-8, but > what I was wondering was would it perhaps be of more value to have the N-6b > but then there is the underframe issue of the N-6b. Tom V. you might find > that the answer to the N-6b underframe in Terra Huete, IN as Richard Burg > told me that the underframes were fabricated by an outsource there, not sure > who though. Which one? N6b or N-8? FWIW, my vote is for an N6b. Bill Ayers ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] F-7 Antenna Details Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:12:03 -0600 Greg--You wrote-- > > If you can wait I will have them done so > that you can just take the dimensions from there. The roof code was fairly > easy to crack the rear of the units are more difficult but now that I did I > can do the drawings. I was lucky enough to find six good shots for the rear > placement. > and-- > > Let me know how quickly this information needs to be put out there as I can > get the drawings done and see if Al Stump can post them to our Webpage for > all to review. > The sooner the better! > > Steve Hoxie have you tried my formula for "DGLE PRR shade" yet? It will > match these units. > I am with Gary Mittner: I haven't seen your formula yet. Last I remember you mentioned Modelflex Brunswick Green. > > PS... Just a general question... I have a manufacturer intrusted in > producing a Pennsy caboose and for the moment we are talking the N-8, but > what I was wondering was would it perhaps be of more value to have the N-6b > but then there is the underframe issue of the N-6b. Tom V. you might find > that the answer to the N-6b underframe in Terra Huete, IN as Richard Burg > told me that the underframes were fabricated by an outsource there, not sure > who though. Which one? N6b or N-8? > You are closer to the manufacturers than I am, but my reading of my email leads me to believe that an upcoming N6b from Laserkits is not at all a sure thing. My opinion is we need a quality N6b before we need the N8. Steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DPoole17@aol.com Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:09:43 EST Subject: [PRR] FP-7 I am in the process of building a 1.6 scale PENNSYLVANIA FP-7. The body kit is manufactured by MDM LOCOMOTIVE WORKS. I need a little assistance with the configuration of the rear of the unit. If anyone has a drawing or good, clear photograph of the rear of a PRR F-7 or FP-7, please make a copy of it to me . . . Either by E-Mail or US Mail!! THANKS in advance . . . ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:09:39 EST From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] F-7 Antenna Details List, I thought I had at one point shared the "brew" but if not I will post it to Al Stump and my Webpage... Bare with me as I am up to my rear in snapping aligators. Al , please remind me and we can get it done Sunday... ======================================================== Gary mitner writes... Have you shared your DGLE paint formula publicly yet? If so I missed it. ======================================================== This color is unlike the Atlas and Life Like colors at present, that may change for some. And Gary is right there are a lot of little things you can do to make these units unique to your era and liking, hace fun with them they are nice. Greg Martin One for the N-8 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] N8 vs N6b Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:30:09 -0500 Well guys, (waving my hand) The N8 has my vote. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:30:13 -0500 Subject: Greg's DGLE Mix (was Re: [PRR] F-7 Antenna Details) From: Jerry Britton On 2/23/01 3:09 PM, TGREGMRTN@aol.com (TGREGMRTN@aol.com) wrote: > I thought I had at one point shared the "brew" but if not I will post it to Al > Stump and my Webpage... Bare with me as I am up to my rear in snapping > aligators. Al , please remind me and we can get it done Sunday... > > ======================================================== > Gary mitner writes... > Have you shared your DGLE paint formula publicly yet? If so I missed it. > ======================================================== > This color is unlike the Atlas and Life Like colors at present, that may > change for some. And Gary is right there are a lot of little things you can > do to make these units unique to your era and liking, hace fun with them they > are nice. Watch out, Bruce! Your title as "Distinguished Professor of PRR Paint & Pigments Mixology" might be in jeopardy!!! (For the more recent subscribers, that title was awarded tongue-in-cheek to Bruce Smith many years ago on this list for his DGLE formula. Quite a thread appeared on the subject at the time.) --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] N8 vs N6b Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:44:55 -0500 N-8 for me too! I will buy a bunch! Who do you will be the likely builder? Any guesses? Ted Andrews -----Original Message----- From: Walt Prusick [mailto:walpru@stargate.net] Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 3:30 PM To: prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] N8 vs N6b Well guys, (waving my hand) The N8 has my vote. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:28:37 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 vs N6b All right, if were just guessing. Bowser has said that it would never do another caboose. P2K already has a market niche with their NE standard caboose. You don't suppose that RC or I/M has decided to step into the caboose market? That would be nice. Bachmann has also had great success with PRR prototypes in their passenger cars. Perhaps they believe it will carry forward to cabooses. I can just see N8s painted for ATSF, GN, NYC, SNCF, and the IRT! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== "Andrews, Ted" wrote: > > N-8 for me too! I will buy a bunch! Who do you will be the likely builder? > Any guesses? > > Ted Andrews > > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Prusick [mailto:walpru@stargate.net] > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 3:30 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] N8 vs N6b > > Well guys, > (waving my hand) The N8 has my vote. > Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] N8 vs N6b Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:29:49 -0500 Hey Andy, Why not?? I've suffered through 40 years of ATSF & other roads cabeese lettered for Pennsy when no reasonable PRR Cabin car was available. Now we can make them suffer the indignities. Buzz -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 4:29 PM To: Andrews, Ted Cc: 'Walt Prusick'; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 vs N6b All right, if were just guessing. Bowser has said that it would never do another caboose. P2K already has a market niche with their NE standard caboose. You don't suppose that RC or I/M has decided to step into the caboose market? That would be nice. Bachmann has also had great success with PRR prototypes in their passenger cars. Perhaps they believe it will carry forward to cabooses. I can just see N8s painted for ATSF, GN, NYC, SNCF, and the IRT! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== "Andrews, Ted" wrote: > > N-8 for me too! I will buy a bunch! Who do you will be the likely builder? > Any guesses? > > Ted Andrews > > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Prusick [mailto:walpru@stargate.net] > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 3:30 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] N8 vs N6b > > Well guys, > (waving my hand) The N8 has my vote. > Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] N8 Vs N6b Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:30:39 -0500 Listers, What about Athearn? Maybe they want a Genesis caboose to go with the new F-7's. Chris Chany -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 4:29 PM To: Andrews, Ted Cc: 'Walt Prusick'; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 vs N6b All right, if were just guessing. Bowser has said that it would never do another caboose. P2K already has a market niche with their NE standard caboose. You don't suppose that RC or I/M has decided to step into the caboose market? That would be nice. Bachmann has also had great success with PRR prototypes in their passenger cars. Perhaps they believe it will carry forward to cabooses. I can just see N8s painted for ATSF, GN, NYC, SNCF, and the IRT! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== "Andrews, Ted" wrote: > > N-8 for me too! I will buy a bunch! Who do you will be the likely builder? > Any guesses? > > Ted Andrews > > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Prusick [mailto:walpru@stargate.net] > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 3:30 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] N8 vs N6b > > Well guys, > (waving my hand) The N8 has my vote. > Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:41:53 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: Greg's DGLE Mix (was Re: [PRR] F-7 Antenna Details) Jerry said: >(For the more recent subscribers, that title was awarded tongue-in-cheek to >Bruce Smith many years ago on this list for his DGLE formula. Quite a thread >appeared on the subject at the time.) I'll be happy to pass the robes of honor (or was that the Paint smock?) on to Greg! Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] N8 vs N6b Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:42:45 -0500 Andy and the List: I think that Bachmann could be a potential builder because they have done alot, and where successful in PRR stuff. Realistically, they could produce a variety of accurate roadnames with the N-8. They could do: 1. PRR (numerous paint schemes) 2. PC 3. Conrail 4. Amtrak 5. Illinois Central Gulf Yes, thats right. ICG! Sometime in the early '70s, Penn Central sold about 30 N-8's to ICG. I think they were painted white/orange with black lettering. This information was based on an article that appearred in a Rails Northeast magazine in 1975-6. Ted Andrews -----Original Message----- From: Andy Miller [mailto:asmiller@mitre.org] Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 4:29 PM To: Andrews, Ted Cc: 'Walt Prusick'; prr-talk@dsop.com Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 vs N6b All right, if were just guessing. Bowser has said that it would never do another caboose. P2K already has a market niche with their NE standard caboose. You don't suppose that RC or I/M has decided to step into the caboose market? That would be nice. Bachmann has also had great success with PRR prototypes in their passenger cars. Perhaps they believe it will carry forward to cabooses. I can just see N8s painted for ATSF, GN, NYC, SNCF, and the IRT! Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== "Andrews, Ted" wrote: > > N-8 for me too! I will buy a bunch! Who do you will be the likely builder? > Any guesses? > > Ted Andrews > > -----Original Message----- > From: Walt Prusick [mailto:walpru@stargate.net] > Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 3:30 PM > To: prr-talk@dsop.com > Subject: [PRR] N8 vs N6b > > Well guys, > (waving my hand) The N8 has my vote. > Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: [PRR] N8 vs. N6b Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:55:59 -0500 Definitely the N8. We've been lacking that one for far too long! Gary Mittner wrote... As for Cabin Cars, Go with the N8!!!! N6's will be available as a laser kit sometime down the road. At least that is what I heard. You don't want to fall into that same ole story like other companies do by having multi models of the same class hitting the market at the same time another companay releases one. I have heard no other plans of an N8 so that should be the one to go for......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] N8 vs. N6b Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:16:17 -0500 PRR List: Perhaps the N-8 model could be done with laser-cut sides & ends along with a resin cast floor, roof, and cupola. I think that it could be done that way rather easily and at low cost ($20-$30 range). Just thinking out loud in Indiana.... Ted -----Original Message----- From: W. Terry Stuart [mailto:tstuart@forcomm.net] Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 4:56 PM To: Gary Mittner; TGREGMRTN@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: [PRR] N8 vs. N6b Definitely the N8. We've been lacking that one for far too long! Gary Mittner wrote... As for Cabin Cars, Go with the N8!!!! N6's will be available as a laser kit sometime down the road. At least that is what I heard. You don't want to fall into that same ole story like other companies do by having multi models of the same class hitting the market at the same time another companay releases one. I have heard no other plans of an N8 so that should be the one to go for......Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 vs N6b Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 08:36:32 +1100 Guys, I don't care I will get either !!! If it is an N6b anyone want to buy some Model Power ones LOL Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] N6 vs N8 Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:05:25 -0500 Well guys, I have "successfully" modified (read: cleaned up) several Model Power N6 in both center and off-set variety. However despite several attempts at converting Tyco (and other manufacturers) caboose into a Pennsy N8 cabin car, I have yet to achieve anything even I would accept. Thus my earlier vote for the N8. Walt "greasy thumbs" Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "boxcar46" Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 vs. N6b Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:06:46 -0500 Question: Why would you want wood laser cut sides on a model of a medal cabin ???? A resin cast car, or a injection molded car would look best...... Keep the wood for the N6, Nd, etc. Just my thoughts....... Bill Knepper PRRT&HS # 1818 (boxcar46@nfdc.net) End of the NCR tracks, New Freedom, Pa. ( Were we have a N8 & N5b.) -----Original Message----- From: Andrews, Ted To: 'W. Terry Stuart' ; Gary Mittner ; TGREGMRTN@aol.com ; PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Friday, February 23, 2001 5:19 PM Subject: RE: [PRR] N8 vs. N6b >PRR List: > >Perhaps the N-8 model could be done with laser-cut sides & ends along with a >resin cast floor, roof, and cupola. I think that it could be done that way >rather easily and at low cost ($20-$30 range). > >Just thinking out loud in Indiana.... > >Ted > >-----Original Message----- >From: W. Terry Stuart [mailto:tstuart@forcomm.net] >Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 4:56 PM >To: Gary Mittner; TGREGMRTN@aol.com; PRR-Talk@dsop.com >Subject: [PRR] N8 vs. N6b > > >Definitely the N8. We've been lacking that one for far too long! > > > >Gary Mittner wrote... > > As for Cabin Cars, Go with the N8!!!! N6's will be available as a >laser kit sometime down the road. At least that is what I heard. You >don't want to fall into that same ole story like other companies do by >having multi models of the same class hitting the market at the same >time another companay releases one. I have heard no other plans of an N8 >so that should be the one to go for......Gary > > > > >Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art >Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> > >PRR Loco Pics: >http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com > >and...... > >PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: >http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 01:06:01 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: [PRR] N6 vs N8 You know, all of this stuff that's coming out now (or rumored to be about to come out) is really frustrating. First, I waste $12 and untold hours of rummaging thru the junkier sections of model railroad shows for the past 5 years to develop a secret hoard of AHM C-liner shells and Tyco Pennsy Fe N8.5's. Then I sit there and stare at them evenings on end wishing they'd morph into the desired kit-bashes. Now, after all that time, money, and effort, Life LIke beats me to the punch on the C-liners and it looks like some other manufacturer will deprive me of hours of fun and frolic on an N8 project. Sheesh! With tongue in cheek, Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 02:32:48 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 vs. N6b In a message dated 2/23/01 9:13:43 PM Central Standard Time, boxcar46@nfdc.net writes: << Keep the wood for the N6, Nd, etc. Just my thoughts >> Good thoughts, Bill. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 06:42:04 -0500 From: Dave McNeil Subject: [PRR] The Cabin Car Controversy Hi Guys, I sort of feel like Vagel, I too have a pile of AHM C-liner shells as well as MP Shark bodies for projects that never got completetd before some darn MFG came along & beat me to the punch. My ABA Erie builts are just about completed as well. For the Cabins I would go with the N-8. I have had a couple Quality Craft N-8's and a collection on their N-6's for years. Ya have to admit nothing looks like wood but wood. Maybe someone like Laser Horizons could whip out the N-8, they do a great job on the Pass Car sides. Regards, Dave McNeil ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andy Cich" Subject: RE: [PRR] N8 vs. N6b Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 06:15:14 -0600 I would buy either of these cabins, but I would buy more of the N6B. Regarding wood kits, all of my wood boxcars and reefers are either plastic or resin, and they look just fine. Recently, there was a discussion on the freight cars list as to whether the seams on the wood sheathing would even be visible in HO scale if the toolmakers accurately scaled them, much less the wood grain. In a prototype photo, how visible is the wood grain on the painted sides of a piece of rolling stock? I'll admit I do not wish to go through the learning curve of assembling wood rolling stock. I have had excellent results painting and weathering wood freightcars modeled in plastic and resin. I'd rather work at improving these skills, rather than learning a new medium. If a manufacturer provides an N8, I'll buy a few. If an N6 is available (in plastic), I'll buy several. And if an N6 is made in wood, I might buy 1. So, all you guys clamoring for a wood N6 kit, what percentage of your wooden reefers and boxcars are modeled in wood, vs. plastic and/or resin? Andy -----Original Message----- In addition, I am biased to a wood cabin car in a wood kit--the finishing and weathering possibilities are better, IMO. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:21:37 EST From: RTSILLER@aol.com Subject: RE: [PRR] N8 vs. N6b My vote would be for the N6b. I model the Northern Region in 1954. There were no N8s assigned to the Northern region according to the Cabin Car Roster on Keystone Crossings. There were a significant number of N6bs. I'm not sure of the date of the database but it provides a good indication of the roster distribution. I might buy one N8 as a unique piece of equipment on a through train but I would buy a number of N6bs for general assignment. If I wait long enough I hope both will be available. Rick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: JOELPRR@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 15:35:24 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Allentown Spring thaw << However, over the past five years or so it has reverted to a toy train meet, and unless you're into tinplate, I would not recommend it. >> I agree that there is a lot of tinplate, however, I got some very good deals on Bowser kits, tools and used cars. My complaint is that it gets too crowded. It's hard to get to some of the better tables. Joel ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWilson823@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 15:58:35 EST Subject: [PRR] Cabin car I need N6b's a whole lot more than an N8. While both are worthy candidates, wasn't the N6b much more numerous? Dorman Wilson Grand Rapids Division ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] Allentown Spring thaw Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 17:27:40 -0500 The Greenberg Show at Pittsburgh/Monroeville's ExpoMart is much the same. There ARE a few scale dealers there and bargains CAN be had; but tinplate, toys, and dolls occupy the vast majority of the tables. -----Original Message----- From: JOELPRR@aol.com To: prr-talk@dsop.com Date: Saturday, February 24, 2001 3:54 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Allentown Spring thaw ><< However, over the past five years or so it has reverted to a toy train >meet, and unless you're into tinplate, I would not recommend it. >> > >I agree that there is a lot of tinplate, however, I got some very good deals >on Bowser kits, tools and used cars. My complaint is that it gets too >crowded. It's hard to get to some of the better tables. > >Joel > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steven Bundick" Subject: [PRR] Motive Power for Trains to/from the Delmarva Divison Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 19:39:12 -0500 I was wondering how motive power was handled for Delmarva Division passenger trains entering and leaving the electrified main line near Wilmington, Del. The Delmarva Division connected with the main line at West Yard, just south of the Wilmington station. Timetables show that several trains to and from Delmarva points actually originated/terminated in New York. Was there a steam/electric engine switch somewhere? If so, where did the change occur? Or were the trains added as sections to other trains on the main line? -Steve ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:16:55 -0500 From: Kevin Trichtinger Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 vs. N6b Andy Cich wrote: > > If a manufacturer provides an N8, I'll buy a few. If an N6 is available (in > plastic), I'll buy several. And if an N6 is made in wood, I might buy 1. > If a manufacturer provides an N8, I won't buy any. As far as I can tell, and from what I remember, no N8 ever ran on the Chartiers Branch. In PRR days, it was N6b or N5, and I remember an N5c during PC and early CR days. If someone puts out an N6b in plastic, I'll buy a couple or three. An N6b in wood... I haven't done well on the wood kits I've tried so far. I might try one, just because I need one. Peace Kevin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 23:27:58 EST Subject: [PRR] EMD FT PRR List, I have an undec. Stewart FT A/B set looking for a coat of paint and decals. I model the Reading Co. and the roads connecting with it. I have searched through all of my books containing info. on the Pennsy and do not find any photos or mention of the FT's. Did the Pennsy have any of these units? If so, would you please mention a currently available reference (book or photo) showing these units. Many thanks in advance! Evan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Benjamin Hom" Subject: Re: [PRR] EMD FT Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 21:03:28 -0800 Evan asked: "I have an undec. Stewart FT A/B set looking for a coat of paint and decals. I model the Reading Co. and the roads connecting with it. I have searched through all of my books containing info on the Pennsy and do not find any photos or mention of the FT's. Did the Pennsy have any of these units? If so, would you please mention a currently available reference (book or photo) showing these units." Evan, EMC's FT was one of the few diesels the Pennsy didn't buy! Remember, the Pennsy was still going great guns in their attempts to develop modern steam during the FT's production run (as recounted in fascinating detail in Hirsimaki's Black Gold - Black Diamonds, Vol. 1). However, all is not lost - if you're looking for RDG connecting roads that had FTs, LV had them and they looked handsome in the classic Cornell Red cab unit scheme. Depending on your era, you could also finish them as "The Diesel that Did It," EMC Demonstrator No. 103, which barnstormed extensively. Check out Diesel Era, May/June 1993, and Railmodel Journal, November 1996, for more information and photos. Ben Hom ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! X-Apparently-From: From: "Lady Of The Woods" Subject: Re: [PRR] N8 vs N6b Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 05:25:51 -0500 Geeze!!! what do I do with all my Bowser N5c crummys now Bill Bluebell Pa. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "dfc PRR 7002" Subject: [PRR] Happy Birthday Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 09:24:09 -0500 Happy Birthday to the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, chartered by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania on February 25, 1847. I still consider her the Standard of the World 154 years later. My best memories are from the late 60's at high school football games with the train crew watching the halftime show from the locomotive and blocking every crossing in town. I always felt as though they were special guests at our performances. What do you remember? DF Cramer _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] N6b vs N8 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 13:38:25 -0500 Hey guys, One thing has just occurred to me regarding which cabin the unspecified madufacturer should produce. Which cabin will sell more readily to the model railroad public in general. Yes, those of us on this list may buy a portion of any runs, but I doubt that our purchases will justify the cash outlay. Further, I am growing confused by the recent posts, what type of kit is buing considered? Be it a wooden, urethane, plastic (similar to a Bowser) or a shake the box plastic (aka standard Athearn)? The selection of medium would (IMHO) better indicate what market the manufacturer intends to go after. Knowing this I believe would make the selection easier? Just my $.02 worth. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 14:11:38 -0500 From: "Michael A. Hmel" Subject: Re: [PRR] Happy Birthday > dfc PRR 7000 wrote : " What do you remember? " I have to agree with you about the " Standard Raiload of the World ". I'm sure that in a forty years or so , no modern railroad will command such a loyal following as the Pennsy has . My father was a car inspector and had 45 years in before he retired , so the PRR was intertwined in every aspect of my life . However the most vivid memory is remembering those trips into " Gotham " on the Broadway Limited . Peering out the windows just to get a glimsp of the lights from the E's as the train rounded the Horseshoe Curve . Or seeing that incredible NYC skyline in the distance as a GG1 pulled us under the Hudson . I can even remember the smell when we walked down the steps onto the platform . Kind of a medeley of steam , grease and burnt electric , still smells good to me . . . . . Happy Birthday ! Mike ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:50:53 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] FW: Pictures Needed "Keystone" Editor Chuck Blardone asked me to send this to the "world." So world - here it is. Al =============== Would it be possible to make a plea for the loan of T1 and electrics B1, O1, L6 and, most urgently P5/P5a photos and/or slides? The T1 are for an article to appear in "The Keystone" very shortly; I need them now. The electrics are for a book on the P5 for the PRRT&HS. This need is less urgent, but still imminent. Thanks! Chuck ============== ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://us.click.yahoo.com/kWP7PD/pYNCAA/4ihDAA/D5QVlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [CYBER] FW: Pictures Needed Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:50:53 -0500 "Keystone" Editor Chuck Blardone asked me to send this to the "world." So world - here it is. Al =============== Would it be possible to make a plea for the loan of T1 and electrics B1, O1, L6 and, most urgently P5/P5a photos and/or slides? The T1 are for an article to appear in "The Keystone" very shortly; I need them now. The electrics are for a book on the P5 for the PRRT&HS. This need is less urgent, but still imminent. Thanks! Chuck ============== ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This list ("Cyber-Talk") is for discussion of Cyber Chapter (PRRT&HS) business only. All general modeling and/or Pennsy discussion should take place on "PRR-Talk". For assistance with this list, send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ---------------------------------------------------------------------- To access the "Members Only" section of the web site, click on a link and, when prompted, enter the user name "member" and the password "standardrr". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Al Buchan" Subject: [PRR] FW: Pictures Needed Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:50:53 -0500 "Keystone" Editor Chuck Blardone asked me to send this to the "world." So world - here it is. Al =============== Would it be possible to make a plea for the loan of T1 and electrics B1, O1, L6 and, most urgently P5/P5a photos and/or slides? The T1 are for an article to appear in "The Keystone" very shortly; I need them now. The electrics are for a book on the P5 for the PRRT&HS. This need is less urgent, but still imminent. Thanks! Chuck ============== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 19:53:16 EST Subject: [PRR] Happy Birthday (I remember Pennsy) My Grandfather put in over 50 years as a Pennsy Conductor - by the time I was old enough to remember he was in Pittsburgh - Crestline Passenger service on the PFtW&C main line. My favorite memories were going down to the tracks in Alliance, Ohio and watching my Grandfather's trains go through. (Taught us how to read a timetable) - He'd always be standing in an open vestibule and would, generally, have candy bars or peanut brittle to toss to us off the moving trains. Dick Ross, Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "W. Terry Stuart" Subject: Re: [PRR] Happy Birthday (I remember Pennsy) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:41:28 -0500 On Saturday mornings when I was a child growing up in Cleveland, my dad and I would drive down to 'The Flats' industrial area along Lake Erie paralleling the Cuyahoga River and bordering the old Cleveland Stadium. There row upon row of red Pennsy 'quad' hoppers were shifted among the tracks stretching toward Lake Erie, north of the New York Central mainline. And a special bonus was the old Pennsy passenger station, where I once remember a Baldwin Shark-Nose BP20 which had brought in a passenger train from Pittsburgh. Other memories include Pennsy Shark-Nose freighters moving ore trains off Whiskey Island. I later met a PRR conductor who confirmed that the Sharks would keep moving no matter how heavy the train--often at barely walking speed, all the way up the long grade on their way to Alliance, and Bayard, and Mingo Jct. Terry Stuart -----Original Message----- From: VVA249@aol.com To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Date: Sunday, February 25, 2001 8:16 PM Subject: [PRR] Happy Birthday (I remember Pennsy) > My Grandfather put in over 50 years as a Pennsy Conductor - by the time I >was old enough to remember he was in Pittsburgh - Crestline Passenger service >on the PFtW&C main line. My favorite memories were going down to the tracks >in Alliance, Ohio and watching my Grandfather's trains go through. (Taught us >how to read a timetable) - He'd always be standing in an open vestibule and >would, generally, have candy bars or peanut brittle to toss to us off the >moving trains. > >Dick Ross, >Cleveland > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:47:35 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Memories Boarding a westbound passenger at Lancaster, Pa.on a warm and muggy night around 11 then the engine change at Harrisburg, E's replaced the GG-1's there. Then the bouncing and bumping ride in an all too chilly coach through the mountains to arrive in Pittsburgh before dawn. A freight derailment on the main in Indiana sent the train down a freight-only line through the factory and mill districts where the sight drew workers out to watch this unusual train. Also, the air-cond. on the coaches did not function very well at the galloping rate of 15 to 20 miles per hour. We were 6-1/2 hours late into Chicago and my connection to Denver, the Burlington's Zephyr, had long since departed. Took the Greyhound to Denver via Cheyenne, Wyo.. Have never rode a bus since -- even a sealed window coach with negligible air-conditioning is better!! Another memory was when a neighbor, conductor Rudy Rudloph, took me along in his "cabin" car on the night time run from Reading, Pa. to Philadelphia. A scenic ride down the Schuykill Valley until it got too dark just below Pottstown. The big city at night from a freight is much different than driving on the expressway. Forget which yard we turned in but it was very busy with almost constant comings and goings. The ride back to Reading was slow as there was a good deal of switching and the extra loaded cars that would go on from Reading towards Pottsville. (The line was still in tact to Pottsville but the last customer was well short of there). Arrived back in Reading just before dawn and the loco and the cars headed further up the line were set out by the station under the Penn St. bridge for the "day" crew to take. Another fond memory from the late 50's was sitting with a friend behind his family's Case tractor dealership in Kinzers, Pa. and feeling the wind as the afternoon passenger headed west towards Gap at 80 to 85 per. The first time we did this we were too far down the bank and the air pushed up back as the GG-1 passed and then we felt the pull (and the dust and grit) as the tail car passed. A photo just a few hundred feet west of our train watching spot is shown in the recently released book Pennsy Under Wire. Fond Memories! Evan Leisey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:48:33 EST Subject: [PRR] PRR Memories Boarding a westbound passenger at Lancaster, Pa.on a warm and muggy night around 11 then the engine change at Harrisburg, E's replaced the GG-1's there. Then the bouncing and bumping ride in an all too chilly coach through the mountains to arrive in Pittsburgh before dawn. A freight derailment on the main in Indiana sent the train down a freight-only line through the factory and mill districts where the sight drew workers out to watch this unusual train. Also, the air-cond. on the coaches did not function very well at the galloping rate of 15 to 20 miles per hour. We were 6-1/2 hours late into Chicago and my connection to Denver, the Burlington's Zephyr, had long since departed. Took the Greyhound to Denver via Cheyenne, Wyo.. Have never rode a bus since -- even a sealed window coach with negligible air-conditioning is better!! Another memory was when a neighbor, conductor Rudy Rudloph, took me along in his "cabin" car on the night time run from Reading, Pa. to Philadelphia. A scenic ride down the Schuykill Valley until it got too dark just below Pottstown. The big city at night from a freight is much different than driving on the expressway. Forget which yard we turned in but it was very busy with almost constant comings and goings. The ride back to Reading was slow as there was a good deal of switching and the extra loaded cars that would go on from Reading towards Pottsville. (The line was still in tact to Pottsville but the last customer was well short of there). Arrived back in Reading just before dawn and the loco and the cars headed further up the line were set out by the station under the Penn St. bridge for the "day" crew to take. Another fond memory from the late 50's was sitting with a friend behind his family's Case tractor dealership in Kinzers, Pa. and feeling the wind as the afternoon passenger headed west towards Gap at 80 to 85 per. The first time we did this we were too far down the bank and the air pushed up back as the GG-1 passed and then we felt the pull (and the dust and grit) as the tail car passed. A photo just a few hundred feet west of our train watching spot is shown in the recently released book Pennsy Under Wire. Fond Memories! Evan Leisey ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:09:41 -0500 (EST) From: "H.&S." Subject: [PRR] I remember Pennsy Hello all... One of my very first Pennsy Memories and railroad memory for that matter was a short trip From Penn station in Baltimore to Washington,D.C. This was about 1962 or 1963. As we waited for our train i remember a EMD switcher moving some cars at the station. The GG-1 that pulled our train was still in five stripe DGLE scheme,but very dirty. The train had a mixture of stainless steel Budd cars and older modernized P-70 coaches. After the train left the B&P tunnel i watched the Catenary poles whiz by and watched for minutes on end the wires overhead that kept weaving back and forth next to and over our train. Even now when i have the rare chance to ride trains on the NEC i still watch the wires.I don't remember much about what happened after we got to Union station in D.C. except it was the biggest station i had ever seen and that there were trains everywhere and it was so busy. The Washington Terminal Alco RS-1s made a freindly and lasting impression on me. It was also about this time that i got a chance to see the rare DD-2 at Baltimore in tunnel helper service. This was just before it was retired. I remember it as it was a bit odd looking than the GG-1's that i was used to seeing. Although the P-5a's were on the way out and still around,i don't remember them. A later memory was of being north of Baltimore next to the main just north of the Bay View yard limits at a small former station that was used as a snowball stand. I believe it was at Stemmers Run. This was just before the merger and before dad went to work for Penn Central. This former station was on the southbound side of the main. Often dad would take us there and watch the trains go by on the main line while we ate our snowballs. Often a southbound freight would stop next to the station to use the call box on a catenary pole near-by. I later found out that they would call here for permission to cross the main and enter Bay View yard. Passenger trains heading northbound were leaving the yard limits of Bay View and were rapidly picking up speed as they passed by. The freights that stopped usually had E-44 electrics especially if it was a unit coal train. GG-1s were used and in pairs,but not as often. It was so busy then...and so different now. Til Later Hank Mummert ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Stephen Bartlett Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:16:29 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [NE-Rails-and-Signals] FW: Pictures Needed Gee, I don't think so...I'm still waiting for my (paid-for) passenger car book...or a refund. Steve Bartlett PRRTHS No 1969 Al Buchan wrote: > > "Keystone" Editor Chuck Blardone asked me to send this to the "world." > > So world - here it is. > > Al > =============== > > Would it be possible to make a plea for the loan of T1 and electrics B1, O1, > L6 and, most urgently P5/P5a photos > and/or slides? .............. > Thanks! > Chuck .... ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://us.click.yahoo.com/kWP7PD/pYNCAA/4ihDAA/D5QVlB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:16:29 -0500 From: Stephen Bartlett Subject: [PRR] Re: [NE-Rails-and-Signals] FW: Pictures Needed Gee, I don't think so...I'm still waiting for my (paid-for) passenger car book...or a refund. Steve Bartlett PRRTHS No 1969 Al Buchan wrote: > > "Keystone" Editor Chuck Blardone asked me to send this to the "world." > > So world - here it is. > > Al > =============== > > Would it be possible to make a plea for the loan of T1 and electrics B1, O1, > L6 and, most urgently P5/P5a photos > and/or slides? .............. > Thanks! > Chuck .... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: LeeRainey@aol.com Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:31:45 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] I remember Pennsy In a message dated 2/25/2001 8:30:18 PM Pacific Standard Time, LeeRainey writes: << In a message dated 2/25/2001 8:18:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, bubbles@visi.net writes: << The Washington Terminal Alco RS-1s made a friendly and lasting impression on me. >> I was a big Pennsy rider in the 50s and 60s, but always on the main stem between Chicago and New York. The first time I rode into Washington Union Station was c. 1983 or 1984. The WT RS-1s were in their last days of service then, I gather, but they made a "friendly and lasting impression" on me too. (Especially since one of the Carstens mags ran an article on them the same month as my visit.) Lee Rainey >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 01:37:06 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Pennsy memories From: Fred G Rea As a child in the 40s, heading East from Dennison Ohio with my folks tucked in a Pullman berth. Staying awake until Pittsburgh for the spectacular light show from all the steel mills. In the same era being handed up onto the deck of one of a pair ok K4s. A friendly engine crew telling me to step on the pedal. Whoosh! and glimpse in to a red hot fire box. Then, being told to pull a rope. Then hearing wonderful sound! These, and other moments, created a life long interest in railroads in general, PRR in particular. What do kids get today to compare to this? Fred Rea ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:22:48 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Pennsy memories Sunnyside Yard full of long-distance trains; The engine change at South Amboy; getting a pickup cab ride to Bay Head Junction and back; Seeing a commutation ticket valid for both the PRR and LIRR, Freeport to Newark or something like that; Train watching at Monmouth Junction, and a pair of E-44s that came to a dead stop in front of me while waiting to enter the Jamesburg Branch; Riding the gas-electric on the Bel-Del, seeing the car for Long Branch at Trenton (and forever regretting not riding it); Sending my bicycle as checked baggage at Trenton for New York (and later convincing the Penn Station baggage room to send it on to Rockville Centre on the Long Island); Getting off MP54s at Rahway and leaving behind a vintage Railway Engineering & Maintenance Cyclopedia I had been reading (frantic phone calls and they retrieved it at Trenton, and sent it to Lost & Found); Seeing the NY&Wash RPO train in the wee hours; Riding the Keystone equipment and staring at the edge of the platform at eye level; The steward on a NY-Washington dining car who, when I insisted that the menu included toast with the pancake breakfast, said, "OK, but nobody eats toast with pancakes, and you won't be able to finish it." And, red-faced, I couldn't. John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: [PRR] PRR Memories-Happy Birthday!! Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:26:44 -0500 My fondest memories of The Standard Railroad of the World were'nt on the PRR at all, but on the PRSL in South Jersey. As a kid growing up in Pleasantville I could hear, and then see the trains going in and out of Atlantic City accross the meadows at the end of our street. No matter what time, if I heard a train I would bolt out the front door to look down the street to see what was going by. In 1956, and 1957 I was 9 & 10 years old. In the summer-time I would ride my bicycle up to Absecon Station after dinner to watch the trains "up close & personal". Several passanger trains would come southbound within a period of about 2 hours to Atlantic City. All would make the station stop at Absecon. They were mostly diesel powered by then, PRSL Baldwin road switchers, BS16ms, but almost always, the last train from Camden had a K4s as power. Wow what a treat! I would talk to the engineman and fireman and marvel at this living, breathing complex piece of machinery until the spell was broken by two shrill signal whistle blasts in the cab meaning it was time to go. I always ran up past the front of the engine to the end of platform so I could watch and listen as the locomotive started her train. This wasn't the only steam powered train on the A.C. line at that time, but it was the one I saw the most. After the Summer of '57' steam dissappeared, but I still always listened and looked for steam, but only saw diesels. Memories such as these (and many others to numerous to mention here) made me a die-hard Pennsy fan for life. I can vividly recall the sights, smells, and sounds from this era so-long-ago. Thank you PRR/PRSL! Happy Birthday!!! C Burnley Jr PRRT&HS #271 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 06:39:11 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] I've been reading the 1923 CT1000 again... Found a couple entries that are puzzling. Both say something like "Junction Krlvny Branch" but, when I look around, I can't find any other reference to the Krlvny Branch. On the Erie and Ashtabula Division, at Nebo, OH. "Junction Arrel Branch" This is 1.1 mile from the station at Struthers, OH; 1.9 miles from the station at Lowellville, OH. On the Chicago Terminal Division, at Calumet Park, Ill., 5.5 miles from Colehour "Junction Dolton Branch". In both cases I'm tempted to conclude that the branches in question are branches of some other RR. Usually when that is the case, the CT1000 says something like "Junction Krlvny Branch - G&P RR", but there are enough other inconsistencies in the CT1000 that a couple more wouldn't be too surprising. So, anybody know what one or the other or both of these entries is talking about? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:54:00 -0500 From: Thomas Mahon Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR Memories-Happy Birthday!! I too grew up with the PRSL, on the Grenloch Branch (actually a Reading line, gasp!) in Mt. Ephraim. We used to walk the tracks to the Turnpike overpass in Runnemede where there was a siding for Trap Rock Industries. I also got over to Haddon Heights and Audubon to see the trains run on another ex-Reading line, mostly freight in the mid-late 50's. The passenger service was over in Haddonfield which was the main run to the shore. When we visited my grandmother in Camden, we usually came in via Glouster and Braodway past the Bulson Street yard and the Camden Beer Brewery (awful stuff, but cheap!). We often got held up by the large freights that plied the, then, 4 track main. Also remember the yard operations for the NY Shipbuilding Corporation which fill the river front from the Bulson Yard down to the Cooper River outlet into the Delaware River. Sometimes saw a 0-6-0 steam on the Grenloch, especially in summer when the normal Baldwin was on shore route duty. Some steam on the other lines. Rode the "new" Budd cars from the Broadway Station in their first season to Wildwood for a family vacation. Tom Mahon Merrimack, NH ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:41:42 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Railroadiana Show in Harrisburg March 4th From: Jerry Britton This coming Sunday, March 4, the Harrisburg Chapter of the NRHS has its annual Model Railroad/Railroadiana Show at the Zembo Mosque in Harrisburg. There are usually about 100 tables...not quite a Timonium...but still a decent show. There are always model railroads set up and running, including the Chapter's own modular layout. Hours are 9 a.m. - 3 p.m. Parking is free and there are concessions. I'll be there -- look for the "www.pennsyrr.com" sign over my two tables -- so please stop by to say hello! --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "sam cali" Subject: [PRR] Motive Power for Trains to/from the Delmarva Divison Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:01:57 -0000 >From: "Steven Bundick" >Reply-To: "Steven Bundick" >To: >Subject: [PRR] Motive Power for Trains to/from the Delmarva Divison >Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 19:39:12 -0500 > >I was wondering how motive power was handled for Delmarva Division >passenger >trains entering and leaving the electrified main line near Wilmington, Del. >The Delmarva Division connected with the main line at West Yard, just south >of the Wilmington station. I was about to ask the same question. Also, could the frieghts move through Edgemere Yard, bypassing Wilmington station? Sam _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:27:40 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Motive Power for Trains to/from the Delmarva Divison Sam asked: > I was about to ask the same question. Also, could the frieghts move >through Edgemere Yard, bypassing Wilmington station? Well, I'll answer the second part - YES - Freights were routed off of the passenger main at Bell, through Edgemere and over the Shellpot Branch, rejoining the main west of Wilmington. AFAIK, it would have been extremely rare for a freight to pass throught the Wilmington station. The Shellpot branch, while short, has some interesting modeling potential due to the multiple swing bridges, with catenary, and interchanges. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:30:20 -0500 From: Bob Colquitt Subject: Re: [PRR] Motive Power for Trains to/from the Delmarva Divison Freight southbound out of Edgemore would cross the swing bridge over the Brandywine River. Mainline frts would rejoin the passenger main line a couple of miles south of Wilmington. Just after crossing the Brandywine, Delmarva frts would cut off & head south on the New Castle Secondary. In New Castle, the frts would move onto the Delmarva line coming down from the West Yard connection. The freight main line crosses the Delmarva branch on it journey to reconnect with the passenger main south of Wilmington. After leaving West Yard, the Delmarva Branch {passenger} serviced the Wilmington Air Base and the state mental hospital at Farnhurst before joining the NC Sec in New Castle. This line along the wooden swing bridge {a model is/was available by Plastruct} across the Christiana River has been removed but it's easy to trace. -=- Bob sam cali wrote: > > >From: "Steven Bundick" > >Reply-To: "Steven Bundick" > >To: > >Subject: [PRR] Motive Power for Trains to/from the Delmarva Divison > >Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 19:39:12 -0500 > > > > >I was wondering how motive power was handled for Delmarva Division > >passenger > >trains entering and leaving the electrified main line near Wilmington, Del. > >The Delmarva Division connected with the main line at West Yard, just south > >of the Wilmington station. > > I was about to ask the same question. Also, could the frieghts move > through Edgemere Yard, bypassing Wilmington station? > > Sam ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 13:34:56 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: N6A, N6B, and Lines West financial condition in 1913 Ric, I can't post this to the PRR lists on e-groups or yahoo. could you please cross post it to other groups where your response appeared. TIA, Tom V. Gize, This is a preview of my prototype N6 class story. The weather events effecting the PRR were nearly a year apart, the March 1913 storm and resulting floods in Ohio and Indiana and the twin blizzards of February 1914 just as the boards of the PRR Co., P Co., and Panhandle were reparing for their 1914 annual meetings. All had posted notices of declining revenues from the flood damages in January 1914 but it seems the blizzards in February 1914 wiped out their cash on on hand. making the crisis even worse. And yet, the PRR STILL PAID A STOCK DIVIDEND for 1913!?!?!? Albeit it was reduced by 60 percent. While its easy to say, 90 years removed, that this was one time where such fiscal conservatism was definitely a mistake, failing to post a dividend probaably would have made the situation worse by downgrading all of the PRR's and affililate's debt ratings, spreading the revenue losses into future years. Ohio's caboose safety law wasn't enacted until after the 1913 annual meetings. However, such events don't occur in a vaccum. Quick implementation of both N5 and N6 cabin car construction programmes in 1914 tells me that preparations were well under way for introductions of new cabin cars at about that time. New classes had been introduced in 1892 and 1903-04. This makes 1914-15 the next logical progression. The one way I suspect that the floods impacted the decision-making process was to force the recycling of the old cabin car bodies, particularly the tiny NB bodies. If lumber was being stockpiled in advance for a major in-house car building programme to begin in 1914, it likely would have disappeared in course of the emergency repairs to the system. The losses to stations, shops and other facilities were too wide spread to easily list. Faced with Ohio's deadline of 1919, recycling old cars seems the only alternative. The NX23 seems to have resulted from a similar decision making process two decades hence. Tom V. (Please add the Mississinewa River, a major Wabash tributary rising in Darke and Mercer counties in Ohio to the list of watersheds affected by the 1913 floods. this would affect towns on the Panhandle's Columbus-Chicago main north and west of Union City, Ohio/Ind.) (Rick, you're right. Omaha, Neb., had the tornado. Histories of the day (1913) tend to be very local, I included details of the storm's effects on other regions to communicate its continental size and power. A survey published in 1999 called it Ohio's worst weather disaster of the 20th Century and it made at least honorable mention on several national surveys.) In a message dated Sat, 24 Feb 2001 1:22:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, RickTipton writes: << In a message dated 2/17/01 11:17:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, LINESWEST writes: Pretty Good Rick, now tell me where you get the information about which shops rebuilt which cabins.>> HaHaHaHaHa. We're talking about rebuilding hundreds of wood cabins into hundreds of N6's, and then another process that converted N6A's into N6B's. Even photo evidence doesn't provide enough material to do a half-baked job on this. I'm still looking for sources for such info, but theorize that the rebuild locations were numerous enough across Lines West that this would have been a tough summarization even when the N6 rebuilds were new. Ohio's outlawing of timber-framed cabooses in helper service and all four-wheeled cabooses in 1913 forced the PRR to adopt new cabin car designs in 1914. This enabled it to comply with the 1919 deadline to have only cabin cars with steel underframes and eight wheels in Ohio. This ewas no small event. Ohio is second only to Pennsylvania as the amount of PRR tracks with in its borders.>> And remember, well over half of Lines West's divisions of the time had trackage in Ohio. Another reason a plethora of shops and car repair points were involved. << Forget anything you've heard about the PRR board looking down on Lines West as the reason the western roads operated and controlled by the Pittsburgh-based Pennsylvania Co. did not adopt the revolutionary all-steel N5 design. I will grant that the P Co.'s engineers and master car builders were a tad more conservative than their counterparts in Philly. This would account for the wood body but, methinks, the rebuilding program. The is only one reason for proceeding with such an money-saving measure. To save money. That is exactly what the P Co. needed to do in 1914. Quite frankly, at the end of March 1914 >> or do you mean March 1913, thus affecting budgeting for 1914 projects? <> do you mean Omaha Nebraska? I can't remember an Omaha in Ohio - I thought Omaha is a Plains Indian name? << on March 23 killed 112, more than 700 dieds in the floods.>> This sounds like the Ohio floods -- people around Dayton still talked about this when I was a kid in the 50's. Huge numbers of dead horses, cows, pigs and sheep added to the cleanup problems. I think weathermen consider this a "Thousand Year Storm", as severe as any likely to happen in 10 centuries. << High winds wrapped around the intense low pressure center that stalled over and inundated the high ground of western Ohio beyween Dayton, Lima and Richmond, Ind., that contains the headwaters of six rivers. Gales raked Toledo and Lake Erie's western basin. The winds sank ships, damaged lakeside and inland structures and caused shoreline flooding. A New York Times story in January 1914 estimated the PRR Co. total 1913 flood related losses at $29 million. Nearly all of this fell on the P Co., primarily its whollyy owned but independently operated Panhandle Route, formally the Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis RW Co. Mother Nature wasn't done during what Garrett Rhea so perfectly labeled as the Pennsylvania Railroad's "worst year before the Penn Central." Back-to-back blizzards in the Great Lakes and Northeast effectively disrupted or halted all traffic for February 1913. The PRR Co., the nation's first $1 billion company ended 1913's first fiscal quarter with only $750,000 in cas-on-hand system wide. Between March 26 and March 30, 1914 drastic measures were taken. The PRR emlinated 120 trains from its shedule and laid off 38,000 systemwide. The P Co and Panhandle laid off 25,000 Lines West employees and the PRR Co. laid off another 13,000. The eqivilent of a major Class 1 railroad vanished from PRR schedules in less than a week. Up until now the PRR took pride in the efficent way it used leases to secure its western lines. The hugh amount of annual rent on these lines made it very inefficent to operate. The floods spelled the end to Lines West. A 1917 evaluation of the western lines ordered by Broad Street found its facilities 20 years behind the demands of pre-World War I traffic and that it lacked the revenue base to finance needed improvements. A good story and an explanation for much that I hadn't suspected. If I understand this story correctly, Lines West incurred multiple weather disasters in February and March of 1913 - there's more on the 1913 floods, their destruction of rail facilities, and the emergency restoration of service in a large-folio, heavily illustrated, hard-to-find book produced by the Engineering Department and deposited in various area libraries. The Ohio State University main library used to have a copy - at least in 1972 they did. Then by the end of first quarter 1914, the full financial impact of all this was realized, leading to immediate draconian savings measures, and before the end of the decade a realization that the Lines West organization was (once again) in no position to finance its own modernization out of operating revenues. Thus, where an unaffiliated railroad would have gone fairly directly into bankruptcy, the Lines West mileages were in the early 1920's consolidated with the rest of the Pennsylvania system and were rebuilt/reborn as part of the PRR operation. Do I have this right? Next: the rebuilding program>> I'm salivating already, Tom - thanks for bringing your expertise to this party! Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Modeling the Pennsylvania RR Columbus Div. 1968 (HO) Operating the Panhandle Route And Remembering PRR Lines West >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: blardone@redrose.net Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:37:00 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [NE-Rails-and-Signals] FW: Pictures Needed Steve: I understand your frustration. I'm embarrassed to have been involved in that whole debacle, but that project was NOT a PRRT&HS project. Peter Tilp took in ALL monies. Neither I (to whom he also owes money...way more than the cost of 100 books) or anyone else in the PRRT&HS recived a penny from monies collected on advance orders! These are Society projects. I am personally responsible for the safety and return of all loaned materials. How do you think I can publish "The Keystone"? We rely completely on loaned material. I've been editing for the Society for 20 years. I challenge you to find anyone who hasn't had all his loaned material returned promptly. Your problem is NOT with the PRRT&HS! Your problem is NOT with me. I acted in good faith to see that the heavweight book was published. I was deceived just as you were. Chuck Blardone > Gee, I don't think so...I'm still waiting for my (paid-for) passenger > car book...or a refund. > > Steve Bartlett > PRRTHS No 1969 > > Al Buchan wrote: > > > > "Keystone" Editor Chuck Blardone asked me to send this to the "world." > > > > So world - here it is. > > > > Al > > =============== > > > > Would it be possible to make a plea for the loan of T1 and electrics B1, O1, > > L6 and, most urgently P5/P5a photos > > and/or slides? .............. > > Thanks! > > Chuck > ..... > "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: blardone@redrose.net Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:37:00 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] Re: [NE-Rails-and-Signals] FW: Pictures Needed Steve: I understand your frustration. I'm embarrassed to have been involved in that whole debacle, but that project was NOT a PRRT&HS project. Peter Tilp took in ALL monies. Neither I (to whom he also owes money...way more than the cost of 100 books) or anyone else in the PRRT&HS recived a penny from monies collected on advance orders! These are Society projects. I am personally responsible for the safety and return of all loaned materials. How do you think I can publish "The Keystone"? We rely completely on loaned material. I've been editing for the Society for 20 years. I challenge you to find anyone who hasn't had all his loaned material returned promptly. Your problem is NOT with the PRRT&HS! Your problem is NOT with me. I acted in good faith to see that the heavweight book was published. I was deceived just as you were. Chuck Blardone > Gee, I don't think so...I'm still waiting for my (paid-for) passenger > car book...or a refund. > > Steve Bartlett > PRRTHS No 1969 > > Al Buchan wrote: > > > > "Keystone" Editor Chuck Blardone asked me to send this to the "world." > > > > So world - here it is. > > > > Al > > =============== > > > > Would it be possible to make a plea for the loan of T1 and electrics B1, O1, > > L6 and, most urgently P5/P5a photos > > and/or slides? .............. > > Thanks! > > Chuck > ..... > "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 13:34:04 -0800 (PST) From: Geoffrey Van Dooren Subject: [PRR] PRR police? Did the Pennsy had its own police force? If so, what were there tasks, how did their uniforms looked like, which vehicles did they used (in 1954)? Thanks, Geoffrey __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RickTipton@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:55:20 EST Subject: [PRR-FAX] Clagg Pix, PDY6 (filling in some Louisville Division history) Gentlemen, A revisit to Pennsy Diesel Years Volume 6 caused me to look again at the pix on pages 10 and 11. I believe the six pictures on these two pages may answer some questions for us... 1. In the first shot (top, p 10) we see an elevated view off the frame of the Panhandle/Pennsy draw looking south-southwest into the "14th Street Roundhouse" area. The Ohio River and the Corps of Engineers' canal, of course, are to our back. Working from right to left, we see a. The corner of Clagg Tower, sitting on the topmost courses of what I believe are at least 3 different styles/ages of stonework (no, I don't have a watertight explanation of this). b. Just beyond Clagg are railings that protect the underpass of the "Panama Line" of the Kentucky & Indiana Terminal Railway, used by Southern and Monon to enter Central Station downtown (upriver to the left). c. Then we see the top of the floodwall, running behind the PRR locker rooms/sandhouse buildings. To their right is Devoe & Reynolds Paint, and probably a second paint/varnish/chemical company with shiny tanks. d. the roundhouse stalls that remain are to the right of the turntable. Outside and behind the turntable were once additional stalls, both where the heavyweight Pullman (or business car?) is sitting, and where the one-story yard office has been since the 1940's (?). e. across the street that runs behind the roundhouse and yard office is a newer and an older brick factory building, both part of the Peaslee-Gaulbert complex (yet another paint manufacturer). To their left are two low gray buildings; in some era both were Monon freight houses, switched by the K&IT via a baroque connection in that street behind the Pennsy roundhouse. Harder to see, but in the next block beyond the Monon freight houses, there are at least 2 B&O freight houses and the beginning of the B&O Cropp Street Branch, also switched by the K&IT. f. to the left of the string of boxcars sitting down at ground level next to the leftmost B&O building, we can see the two tracks of the Pennsy elevated line, running south on the alignment of what was 14th Street until after the Civil War. The Louisville Bridge Co (Pennsy predecessor) "came ashore" here from Indiana in 1870, 14th Street filled up with tracks of the Panhandle and its industrial customers, and at some point the street was lost to public traffic. Then the PRR tracks were elevated in 1938-1940 (Louisville's killer flood was in 1937, not 1913 as on most of the Panhandle). g. pulling attention forward again to the tracks coming off the bridge -- the bridge was built in 1917, with two tracks all the way across (about that time, this area was getting 200 train and engine moves a day). Jack Fravert's pictures of the early 1950's show these two bridge tracks still in service, so it's notable here to catch the lefthand track here in autumn 1961 rusty and out of service. The shiny rails in this picture are all connected to the "southbound" track on the bridge, so it's easy to guess that the "northbound" track was recently taken out of service. It's also easy in this picture to pick out where the former northbound main has been removed, and one track has been laid across it to tie the remaining bridge track to the yard complex on the left side of the picture, beyond that "dwarf on a post". h. to the left of the rusty rail, we can again see the top of the floodwall -- the fact it's not very tall tells us that the land close to Clagg has been filled in to get it above most flooding (and to raise the bridge base so it can lift clear of the barge canal). In front of it, we see PRR-specification railing, guarding the other "portal" of the K&IT's Panama line underpass. 2. The bottom pic on page 10 gives us the "ground level" view of this new connection to Pennsy's yard and freight house off to the right (east) of the pic. That sandpile looks like a great online industry, but unfortunately it was outside the floodwall and switched from the K&IT along the river -- it was basically a barge loading/unloading operation. But there was much that was Pennsy on this side of the wall, crammed into a triangular piece of land from here south to Main Street, including a vestpocket local yard, team tracks, and a freight house with enough Victorian decor to be a contemporary of the Hamilton Ohio passenger station (and many other ornate Panhandle masonry piles). Unfortunately, none of this colorful but aging plant is visible in these pictures. Once upon a time, this property on the east side of the 14th Street alighnment contained the main station for Louisville, and in 1919, half-hourly commuter trains from Union Station to New Albany IN still scheduled stops here at "14th and Main". 3. All the pictures on this page are credited to a Robert B. Watson (not known to me, but railfans, as Anthony Banderas says of Zorro, could be anywhere). The center and lower pictures on page 11 show the passage of the South Wind in August of 1961. I'm grateful to see these two Pennsy E-8's looking so good in their single stripes. I'm also grateful to see the fluted-side consist following it, headed by an FEC baggage. Although many railfans know that there was a "PRR" and an "ACL" consist on the South Wind, some are surprised to find that the consists were often run with their "wrong" locomotive sets, as is shown here. 4. But there are other things to pick up in these two August 1961 pictures. For one, we see the obligatory local H-10-44 loitering near the sand tower. Sometimes I don't think this part of the PRR believed in EMD switchers; they went from H10 2-8-0's to H-10-44's with Loewy carbodies, and then didn't change almost 'til merger. But more significantly, we see the track gang busy perfecting the severing of the northbound main, so now we know when this happened. Notice the yellow tractor (a nice touch) is sitting right on the end of the rail that, a couple of months later at the top of page 10, will be rusty. 5. Finally, in 4 of the pictures, we can see the bridge, running about a mile over canal and riverbed to its other abutment in Jeffersonville, where high earthworks continue another mile or two up to Jeff Yard. All 4 of these shots let us see various angles of CLAGG's interlocking tower, the heavyweight power wires for the bridge motors going in and out of the building, and the fact that the bridge is down (and therefore the concrete counterweights are up) in all four pictures. In the 1970's, when I first visited CLAGG, the operator pointed out that there was much more traffic on the river than on the railroad, but he still kept the bridge down, whether the Corps of Engineers was happy or not. Today, rail traffic is down even more, and normal position of the bridge appears to be up. If this isn't enough trivia for you on Clagg and Louisville, then you'd better come see us during the regional NMRA convention we're hosting this spring. Among other subjects, we'll be talking about the 1950-era railroads in Louisville. Til the next train out, Rick Tipton - Louisville KY Remembering PRR Lines West and preparing for Thorobred Express 2001 The Spring Mid Central Region Convention at Louisville KY, May 17 through 20, 2001 Visit our website at http://www.trainweb.org/mcrdiv8/mcr2001conv.html [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Fw: [PRR] PRR police? Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:25:17 -0500 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gregg Mahlkov" To: "Geoffrey Van Dooren" Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:21 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR police? > Geoffrey:= > > The Pennsylvania Railroad certaIinly did have its own police force. When I > worked for PRR in BNaltimore, Maryland, in the mid-1960's there were about a > half dozen PRR police based at Track level at the passenger station, under a > Captain. Their principal duties were to prevent harm to passengers on > railroad property and (mainly) to prevent and investigate theft of railroad > property or freight being carried by the railroad, and that sure kept them > busy. When a carload of frozen turkeys arrived in the yard, it had to be > watched 24 hours a day. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Geoffrey Van Dooren" > To: "PRR talk list" > Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 4:34 PM > Subject: [PRR] PRR police? > > > > Did the Pennsy had its own police force? > > If so, what were there tasks, how did their uniforms > > looked like, which vehicles did they used (in 1954)? > > Thanks, Geoffrey > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. > > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: KLJURY@aol.com Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 23:13:48 EST Subject: [PRR] Pennsy memories Growing up in the 50's, witnessing the steam to diesel transition, the best of borth worls...PRR steam & 1st Gen diesel. Watching an M1 takeing water at the Millersburg water plug, then starting a mile long train with drivers spinning & exhaust shooting out of the stack... Lying in bed as a kid at night listening to an M1 pounding down the Buffalo line. Even though we lived 1/2 mile from the track the old glass window panes would still rattle from the sound of the engine's exhaust on an icy winter night. Sharks; live sharks, still the most beautiful diesel ever built. Pacing them South out of Sunbury (they usually did 35MPH on coal drags) so it was easy to pace them around Hernon, Dalmatia, Paxton, Millersburg & Halifax listening to that peculiar chugging noise they made. Kerry Jury ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:45:46 -0800 Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR police? From: "Doug and Marianne" Geoffrey: The Autumn 1991 Keystone has an article on PRR police with photos of their uniforms. The uniforms changed over time, but the photos show a standard type police uniform. Summer uniform has a plain shirt with tie, and pants with stripe on the outside seam. Other seasons added a double-breasted jacket with gold buttons. The hat had a unique PRR badge with Keystone and wreath and hatband piping. No mention of vehicles. Doug N. ---------- >From: Geoffrey Van Dooren >To: PRR talk list >Subject: [PRR] PRR police? >Date: Mon, Feb 26, 2001, 1:34 PM > > Did the Pennsy had its own police force? > If so, what were there tasks, how did their uniforms > looked like, which vehicles did they used (in 1954)? > Thanks, Geoffrey > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "dfc PRR 7002" Subject: Re: [PRR] Railroadiana Show in Harrisburg March 4th Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 06:23:47 -0500 >This coming Sunday, March 4, the Harrisburg Chapter of the NRHS has its >annual Model Railroad/Railroadiana Show at the Zembo Mosque in Harrisburg. > There is to be a massive rally insupport of public education on March 4, in Harrisburg. The rally is in the afternoon, but over 200 busses and thousands of automobiles will be descending on the Capitol area as early as 10:00 AM. Plan your travel to the show accordingly. (Go early) DF Cramer _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 05:28:33 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: Re: [PRR] I've been reading the 1923 CT1000 again... --- Don Millbranth wrote: > Greetings Bob.. > Looking at my 1945 CT1000W, the part you are > looking at has immediately > to the left of that "S.C.& S. R. R. (Main line)" as > though this was the > connecting line. > Don Yes, I've looked at the 1945 CT1000 and I see that. I take that to mean that the track connecting the Ft. Wayne at Colehour to the Panhandle at Bernice is the main line of the SC&S. What is irritating me no end is the entry "Junc. Dolton br." at location GE, Calumet Park, 5.5 miles from Colehour. I take that to mean that there is a switch there at which "the Dolton Branch" diverges from the main line of the SC&S. So where is the description of the Dolton Branch? If it is in fact the Dolton Branch of the SC&S I would expect to find it listed somewhere in the CT1000, but I don't. If the Dolton Branch was owned by, for example, the B&O, I would have thought the entry would read "Junc. Dolton Branch - B&O RR". That's the puzzle. If the PRR or one of it's subsidiaries owned/leased something called "Dolton Branch", why isn't it described in the CT1000? That it is not leads me to think that maybe the Dolton Branch is the Dolton Branch of some other railroad, and that whoever was preparing the text of the CT1000 forgot to mention that fact. One other possibility has occurred to me. Perhaps there was a Dolton branch of the SC&S, it was abandoned, and the list of stations and sidings revised by removing the list describibg the branch. However, through error, the entry for the junction itself remained. That's the situation with the Arrel Branch in eastern Ohio, and, to add another, something called Kendrick Branch in the Moshannon coal field in central Penna. Sometime I think I was better off when my interest in PRR was limited to looking out the window and saying "Oh wow. Look at the big trains." ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:32:55 -0800 (PST) From: Joseph Andrews Subject: [PRR] PRR memories I've enjoyed this thread and I'd like to add my own. As a 6 year old growing up near the PRR's branch thru Canonsburg, PA in the 40's, I was not too young to notice that freight locos had round yellow number plates on the smokebox and passenger locos had the red keystone. I was awestruck by the huge freight locos with the big horizontal air tanks, I don't know if they were Mountains or N2s. The twin air tanks facing forward had to be decapods and the smaller engines used on the local frieght must have been consolidations. The daily commuter run engine was very different from the frieght locos. It was clean, shiny black, had a red keystone and moved very fast. I think it must have been a 4-6-0. I hope someone with a knowledge of that branch in that time period can give me some more accurate information on the equipment that I saw as a youngster. Later, in the early 50s, all we saw were Baldwin and EMD switchers except on the middle of the night thru train which had 2 back-to-back Fairbanks Morse switchers. One day, I couldn't believe it, there, on our little branch was a train pulled by an A-A (or maybe A-B-A) set of C Liners. They were the only "road" diesels I ever saw on that line. The line still lives as the Pittsburgh Industrial Railroad and is a shadow of what it once was but at least it still exists. My old home town has changed dramatically since I left some 40 years ago, but everytime I revist, I still hear and see the ghosts of those trains that used to be so common. Thanks for listening. Joe ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Don LaPlante Subject: [PRR] FW: GREEN VS TUSCAN & BLACK Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:08:07 -0500 > -----Original Message----- > From: Don LaPlante > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 2:06 PM > To: KEVIN (E-mail) > Subject: GREEN VS TUSCAN & BLACK > > WHAT DECIDED WHICH LOCOMOTIVES WERE PAINTED GREEN INSTEAD OF TUSCAN ON > PASSENGER AND GREEN INSTEAD OF BLACK ON FREIGHT? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:28:02 EST From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] N6b vs N8 Walt and All, In order to defuse some of the speculation and conjecture... Walt Writes.. <> This kit will be a highly detailed injection molded styrene kit. I am not sure if it will be a flat kit (which would keep ythe cost way down) or a kit similar to Bowser's but it is clear you will have to add on the details like the grabs ect., it might be something in between. IMHO, a flat kit would be best, I have the ablity to build them up. And perhaps if one is successful the other would follow right behind and then of course there is the O Scale market and the N-Scale market. <> It might be a sacrifice to the market if you have to build it, but the cost would be less and the detail better. Now I am looking for some good drawings including the underframe. Anyone have drawings of the underframe? It appears the N-8 is the subject of choice for the first kit. Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:51:46 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Looking for "Makeup of Trains" Book From: Jerry Britton I've asked before, but it's been a while... The PRR issued books called "Makeup of Trains" that told crews at passenger terminals how to make up each specific train...by car class and right down to car name in some cases. I have a 1954 book from the New York Division. I am especially interested in one from or around 1954 for the Maryland Division that would cover trains originating/terminating in Washington, D.C. I have the general makeup of most of the north/south trains, but this document would give me a more specific idea of the car class, rather than "generic" references like coach/lounge, diner, cafe/lounge, cafe/coach, coach with reclining seats, etc. My intent is to use this to model more accurately. Also interested in one for the Philadelphia Terminal Division as it would cover the Philly to Harrisburg commuters. Can anyone help? Thanks in advance. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:16:10 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR memories In no particular order: Being taken into the Harrisburg diesel shop at about age 4 by a neighbor who worked there, and being overwhelmed by the height of the ceiling, the brightness of the lights, and the size of the locomotives. Seeing the Aerotrain running through Lewistown Narrows, and stopped at the station at Lewistown Junction. Watching SD45s hauling a merchandise freight across the Fort Wayne bridge over the Allegheny River in Pittsburgh. Riding the day trains across Pennsylvania, the Juniata and the Duquesne, with their collection of a dozen grimy-grimy X29 express boxcars, a B60b baggage car or two, and two or three coaches (always divided into smoking cars and nonsmoking cars). Playing tag with a TrucTrain on the adjacent track from Torrance through the Conemaugh Valley, being passed by the TT as our train made the Johnstown station stop, then catching up and passing it again. Standing in Harrisburg station waiting to board a westbound train at about age 14 - and when it arrived behind a GG1, thinking that it was going so fast that it wasn't going to stop. Seeing A-B-A sharks pulling a westbound empty hopper train past Lewistown station. Seeing A-B-A Alco FA/FB units working in Uniontown, Pa. Seeing dead Baldwin Centipedes in the Hollidaysburg scrap line. Reading The Pennsy magazine in my aunt and uncle's home (he was a brakeman/conductor working east/south out of Enola). Later, hearing my uncle - a hard-bitten union man with little external apparent love for PRR management - ask "what do * you * know?" when his wife, my aunt, expressed an opinion that Penn Central green was nicer-looking than that tired old PRR red. Growing up in central and western Pennsylvania in a home where the term "PRR" was spoken frequently even before anyone in the family (the uncle noted above) became an employee. As a youngster, watching the Milroy Branch local, first behind steam power (H10), and later, pairs of back-to-back Baldwin DS-4-4-1000s (9429-9430). Again as a youngster, seeing M1s hauling freight trains on the main line between Marysville, Perdix, and Duncannon (think Don Wood and you'll get the picture). Seeing a notch-nosed Alco helper tied ahead of the three red E-units that were pulling a passenger train I was riding over Horseshoe. Visiting a warm and cozy Lewis Tower on a chilly March day about 1965 or 1966. Driving my mom's 1963 LeSabre to Horseshoe Curve for the first time at age 17 and visiting the 1361 there. Seeing the 4332 (FP7), one of the last F-units to be repainted by Penn Central, still wearing single stripes, red keystones, and full Pennsylvania lettering, running in Conway Yard - in 1970. Dan Cupper ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] FW: GREEN VS TUSCAN & BLACK Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:57:54 -0500 Don, To my knowledge Red (Tuscan) was assigned to Mainline Passanger Power cab units & "B" units, after being Dark Green Locomotive Enamel with 5 Gold stripes. I don't know the exact date of the re-paints. Dark Green Locomotive Enamel, and a single gold (yellow) stripe was applied to all other power. There was NO black, only DGLE, except for underframes which were black. The only exceptions to this were the hood units (road switchers) that were equipped for passanger service. They were DGLE as well, with no stripes. Hope this helps. Buzz PRRT&HS #271 -----Original Message----- From: Don LaPlante [mailto:don.laplante@sigtech.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 2:08 PM To: 'PRR-TALK@DSOP.COM' Subject: [PRR] FW: GREEN VS TUSCAN & BLACK > -----Original Message----- > From: Don LaPlante > Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 2:06 PM > To: KEVIN (E-mail) > Subject: GREEN VS TUSCAN & BLACK > > WHAT DECIDED WHICH LOCOMOTIVES WERE PAINTED GREEN INSTEAD OF TUSCAN ON > PASSENGER AND GREEN INSTEAD OF BLACK ON FREIGHT? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steven Bundick" Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for "Makeup of Trains" Book Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:49:32 -0500 Jerry- I've seen copies of these books at some railroadiana shows. I picked one up dated 9/1927 for the Eastern Region, Southern division. It covers the then Baltimore, Delaware, Maryland, and Norfolk divisions. I'm sure there's others available. The copies were distributed by Ed Gardner, P.O. Box 199, Mountain Top, Pa, 18707-0199. You may want to contact him to see which other one's are available. The books are definitely informative. -Steve -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Britton To: PRR-Talk LIST Date: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 4:02 PM Subject: [PRR] Looking for "Makeup of Trains" Book >I've asked before, but it's been a while... > >The PRR issued books called "Makeup of Trains" that told crews at passenger >terminals how to make up each specific train...by car class and right down >to car name in some cases. > >I have a 1954 book from the New York Division. > >I am especially interested in one from or around 1954 for the Maryland >Division that would cover trains originating/terminating in Washington, D.C. > >I have the general makeup of most of the north/south trains, but this >document would give me a more specific idea of the car class, rather than >"generic" references like coach/lounge, diner, cafe/lounge, cafe/coach, >coach with reclining seats, etc. > >My intent is to use this to model more accurately. > >Also interested in one for the Philadelphia Terminal Division as it would >cover the Philly to Harrisburg commuters. > >Can anyone help? Thanks in advance. >----------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com >Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:53:25 -0500 From: Kevin Trichtinger Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR memories Joseph Andrews wrote: > > The line still > lives as the Pittsburgh Industrial Railroad and is a > shadow of what it once was but at least it still > exists. My old home town has changed dramatically > since I left some 40 years ago, but everytime I > revist, I still hear and see the ghosts of those > trains that used to be so common. Since December 28, 2000 it's been the Pittsburgh and Ohio Central. And you're right: it's a shadow. One train a day to Arden and back, three days a week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday) with a occasional Tuesday or Thursday run if Pennsylvania Transformer has something. My memories postdate yours somewhat. I grew up watching this line and the P&WV (N&W/NS, now W&LE) from my bedroom window, from 1960, when I first remember it (I was 2) until I moved up the hill in 1984. By about 1960, the FM units must have been used during the daylight hours, too, because I remember that the locomotives on "the upper tracks" (P&WV) and "the lower tracks" (PRR) looked the same. Later, about the time I learned to identify locomotives by model, there were mostly GP35s. I remember seeing an RS-27 once in Bridgeville. That would have been right around the time of the merger. After that, it was mostly SWs and GP9s, with long trains of scrap steel and empty hoppers. I watched this line fade through the PC years to the shadow that it is now. I can't watch it from my window any more, but I can still hear trains blowing the crossings at Vanadium Road and Braun Way. Peace Kevin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR memories Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:40:35 -0500 Group, I sit here only wishing I had a recollection of the famous PRR I was born in 1968 and the only thing I have are your memories & books. What I would give to have seen a T1 racing down the tracks with 12 coaches at 100MPH. Or a J1a with a 100 car coal drag. Thanks for sharing all the memories. Sam Vastano _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:09:40 -0500 From: "John F. Ryan, Jr." Subject: Re: [PRR] Looking for "Makeup of Trains" Book I just found a 1957 "Make-up of Trains" for the New York Region. What's the difference between NY Region and NY Division? My book seems the show the north-south trains that continue on the ACL, C&O, SAL and Sou. It shows at least some of the through trains to the west-Admiral, Broadway, General, Pittsburgher, etc. as well as the Washington-Springfield/Boston trains. John Ryan Jerry Britton wrote: > I've asked before, but it's been a while... > > The PRR issued books called "Makeup of Trains" that told crews at passenger > terminals how to make up each specific train...by car class and right down > to car name in some cases. > > I have a 1954 book from the New York Division. > > I am especially interested in one from or around 1954 for the Maryland > Division that would cover trains originating/terminating in Washington, D.C. > > I have the general makeup of most of the north/south trains, but this > document would give me a more specific idea of the car class, rather than > "generic" references like coach/lounge, diner, cafe/lounge, cafe/coach, > coach with reclining seats, etc. > > My intent is to use this to model more accurately. > > Also interested in one for the Philadelphia Terminal Division as it would > cover the Philly to Harrisburg commuters. > > Can anyone help? Thanks in advance. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:13:18 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] N6b vs N8 I realize that I'm probably swimming upstream here re: > O Scale market and the N-Scale market If you're thinking of going on to "O" scale (and/or "O" Guage) MTH already makes very credible ( and convertable to scale) N-5c and N-8's (with antennas) @ less $50. each - with interior, lighting and train phone antennae (on the N-8) The only recent N-6's are Weavers, in brass @ over $200 each. A die or laser cut (wood or plastic) flat kit for an N-6 should be price competitive and allow the Mfg to offer bot the N-6a (box cupola) or N-6b (round cupola) My advice would be to ignore "O" scale (and "O" guage), in the equation: "O" scalers mostly go for brass (if you spend over $1,000 for a loco, $200 for a caboose isn't bad) In three rail both Lionel and MTH offer a nice low (cupola) height NYC wood caboose lettered for PRR, which most three railers seem willing to accept. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:21:46 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR memories In a message dated 2/27/01 5:55:13 PM Central Standard Time, svastano@hotmail.com writes: << What I would give to have seen a T1 racing down the tracks with 12 coaches at 100MPH. Or a J1a with a 100 car coal drag. >> Oddly,considering my modeling tastes, but I was much more familiar with B&O, NYC, CRI&P, MILW, and Grand Trunk steam. Only live Pennsy steamers I ever saw were a T1 at the bumpers at Chicago Union Station (I came in with my mom on the GM&O from St. Louis) and a rusting, wheezing J1 in the middle 50's near Beverly Junction on the Panhandle Line on the south side of Chicago. Also remember seeing brand new F ABA's in shiny DGLE on that line, running reasonably fast engine light. And in 1966-67 I lived 100 yards from the setout track for scrap and tradein in LaGrange Park, Illinois, on the Indiana Harbor Belt , so saw the Centipedes, Sharks, etc, on the deadline there as well. Next was the Pennsylvania Limited under PC (does that count) Chicago-Pittsburgh, leaving from the lakefront station, not CUS, in 1970. Nearly got killed being thrown from one wall to the other in my roomette on that trip, the track was so bad. Then riding clockers and metroliners in 1973-74. My office window in Haverford in 1973-74 looked out on the mainline, so GG1s and E44s were in abundance. Hard to get much work done. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: Re: [PRR] PRR memories Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:11:43 +1100 Guys, Stop it before I die of jealousy!! I have never seen anything PRR apart from a couple of Timetables and a few envelopes!!! Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:17:19 -0500 (EST) From: "H.&S." Subject: [PRR] Penn Central Hello all.... Penn Central ? Gee don't even get any PC memories going.(We might not want to remember PC) I was a PC conductors brat. Got way too many memories for that railroad. LOL Til Later Hank Mummert Jr. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:22:24 -0600 From: "Jack Witmer" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Memories This thread has certainly given a lot of pleasure and prompts me to add my own memories. My grand dad was an engineman for 44 years, both freight and passenger. My father, being a fossil hunter, would go to a quarry on the end of Peters Mountain overlooking the Williamsport division track just north of Rockville Bridge. My brother and I went along on these expeditions, and were always hoping that one of the locomotives we would hear would have my grand dad at the throttle. My father could tell from the sound of the exhaust if it were Grandpa or some ordinary engineman. I have a very strong memory of riding behind a K4 from Lancaster to Harrisburg before the wire went up, probably 1936. It was a cold day, but the coach was warm and comfortable. I also remember standing on Mulberry Street Bridge a year or so later as the first electrically powered, regular passenger train came into Harrisburg station. During WW II, I frequently rode the PRR's always crowded trains between Philadelphia and Harrisburg, arriving in old Broad Street Station in the morning and catching a west-bound train at North Philadelphia in the afternoon. That was while I was in high school, taking french horn lessons from the first horn in the Philadelphia Orchestra. College was in West Chester, so I rode the PRR from Harrisburg to Coatesville or Downington back and forth between college and home. Seeing the headligh of the GG1 coming down the track at night was always exciting. I also have fond memories of the suburban service from West Chester. My first job after college was in Kansas, so I rode the Broadway Limited to Chicago with my college roommate. A double bedroom, breakfast in the dinner--what a way to go! After that first year teaching, I was federalized with the Pennsylvania National Guard's 28th Inf Div and went by special train from Harrisburg to Camp Atterberry, a little concerned becuse there had been a bad wreck with an earlier special movement going to the same place. I was surprised that the locomotive for the trip from Indianapolis south to Atterberry was an L1. The return trip, a year later, was sad, as I took the PRR home for my father's funeral. I suppose my fondest memories of the Pennsy came for many evenings, hanging out in and arround Harrisburg station, watching the great fleet of west-bound trains and the K4s, T1s, GG1s, and, later, diesels that pulled them. The T1s had to be the most fascinating, with their poppet valves and their tendency to slip one set of drivers getting the train started. Funny thing about those evenings--no one ever gave me a hard time for being were I really should not have been. And finally, Enola yard was at least as great a place to be as Harrisburg station, although I didn't go wandering around the tracks there. What a collection of locomotives, rolling stock, and trains going all directions. The hump was always interesting, expecially when they put in the car retarders. My regrets: not recording my grandfather's experiences, and not taking more pictures. Like a lot of other people, I thought it would go on for ever. -- The universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J. B. S. Haldane ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Fred Kunchick" Subject: [PRR] Re: PRR Memories Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:58:37 -0500 I been sitting here reading these for the last few days and been thinking how do these people remember engine numbers they seen. Because I don't remember what steam or diesels I seen. But growing up in East Camden, NJ in the Westfield Acres about 3 blocks from the Pavonia Yard and having family "across the tracks". I ran the Pavonia yard just about every day from the time I was about 7 (1953) until my teens, and remember those big black engines blowing steam. Tons and Tons of freight cars rolling with just a man on the brake wheel and getting yell at me to stay off the tracks. I remember when they build the State St., 27th St. and 36 St. bridges, my dad glad they did, but I was not because we couldn't sit there at the crossing and watch the long trains go by any more. In the summer with the windows open in my room I would fall asleep listening to the steam whistles and the freight trains being broken down and put back together for the morning run at Pavonia yard, sometimes it sounded as they where in the room with me. As for passage service I remember the one that ran next to the Westfield Acres to Moorestown (Pemberton Branch), and remember climbing the coal towers at 36th St. and Rosedale Ave on that branch. Use to love to drive pass the NY Ship Building Corp in South Camden watching the train work there. Wish I knew then to take pictures, but in does days I couldn't get 25 cents to got to a movie LOL. 1960 I once hopped a slow freight at the 36th St. and fell asleep in a freight car and woke up in NY state and had to call my father to come get me and he didn't talk to me for a week after that, (got to say one thing for my father he never yell or hit but you knew you where in trouble when he wouldn't talk to you, I use to want him to yell or beat my butt, then not talk to me for a week) to this day my 73 year old mother reminds me of that, ;-) when I start talking trains. In 1965 I went into the Navy and didn't come back to this area until 1995 so don't remember much about PC or Conrail in this area. Oh well, now I got myself all mess up thinking about my father I leave it at this. Fred Delair NJ ALHN/AHGP New Hampshire Civil War History and Genealogy site http://www.usgennet.org/usa/nh/topic/civilwar/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:00:10 -0800 Subject: [PRR] B60b origins? From: "Doug and Marianne" Can someone provide information on where and when were B60b's built? When were the porthole window doors first used? On newly built cars? Retrofits to older cars? Thanks for you help. Doug N. babal@slip.net ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: TGREGMRTN@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 03:19:24 EST Subject: [PRR] DGLE Paint Brew Hey Yuze Gize, This link will take you to Al Stump and my webpage and the "brew" to match the DGLE/Brunswick Green on the Athearn Genesis F units. AL Stump (my webpage partner) has posted it to the page for your review. Excuse our mess as the site is still developing. I will be adding more material as we grow and we will be linking other to this site. We are just having fun it and believe me I couldn't do it without Al... Just in case here is the link http://www.fortunecity.com/westwood/beautiful/819/PRR_Tips/PRRTips.htm I will get the drawings posted for the antenna mast layout done as soon as I can. Remember there were 5 mast on the rear of the F unit on the engineman's side and the conduit did go down the back of the unit on the fireman's side but not all the way. Please browse the comparison photos to my modeling of the Wilmington, DE station and the actual photo Bruce Smith took. This is a masterpiece of a station and Bruce did us all a favor in preserving it in color photos. Bless you Bruce! Greg Martin Jerry feel free to link this to your site. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:49:42 -0500 Subject: [PRR] PC memories (of PRR lines) From: Fred G Rea Hank and the list: At first all I did was fwd Hank's PC question to my son, a PC fan. Then I realized he was only three when PC ended. A little thinking and I realized I have a several PC memories I was attributing to the PRR. There is enough PRR in them to put on this list. One of my rare chances to travel by rail on a mid 1970's business trip involved flying to New York and taking a local down to Princeton Junction. I had to catch a cab over to the university, no time for the "Dinky". I made sure I got in the lead MU unit in Penn Station. I ended up in the fireman's seat while he went inside and rode in comfort. A real break, a cab ride through the tunnels and down the NEC. The engineer pointed out we were on a Penn Central passenger train running on rights over AMTRAK track. He and I saw real humor in that. Most don't. Then there are the Metroliners. The real ones, not just trains named that. Rode them twice. Once Wash DC to Baltimore and back. Then Washington - Wilmington ton and back. Both were joy rides during a break in a business trip to Washington. Here was the real trick. Get a first class ticket Northbound, coach Southbound,. This gave one a chance to be in the lead car both ways. On the Northbound trip be very nice to the steward serving the refreshments. If he'll let you, both did, you can stand by the front door and see into the cab and down the line. To do this you had to be between his small galley and the front door. One steward said it was usually small boys that wanted to do that but I was OK he guessed. You had to stay out of his way. No getting in the cabs on those! No chance to chat with the engineer but you could see the speedometer and of course, the track. Meeting another Metroliner when you were both doing 120 mph was quite a thrill. I spent very little time in a seat. These are in sharp contrast to my memories of dirty, ill kept, locos, cars and track all over Ohio. If you remembered PRR and then PC you really appreciated Conrail. Fred Rea Columbus OH ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Colman Gerald Subject: [PRR] P-70 Coach HO-Models Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:06:15 -0500 To List: I would like opinions on who makes the best HO P-70 Coaches, other than brass. I would like to build-up a fleet of P-70s and noticed that there is Bachman Spectrum and Eastern Car Works. Who makes the best quality in terms of detail, correctness to prototype, assembly, etc? Are there any other available? Any thoughts would be most appreciated. Thanks in advance. Jerry Colman ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:21:52 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] P-70 Coach HO-Models From: Jerry Britton On 2/28/01 9:06 AM, Colman Gerald (ColmanG@tce.com) wrote: > I would like to build-up a fleet of P-70s and noticed that there is Bachman > Spectrum and Eastern Car Works. Who makes the best quality in terms of > detail, correctness to prototype, assembly, etc? Are there any other > available? > Bachman Spectrum offers a good P-70 (early version, of course) and PB-70 (they call it a combine). ECW offers great kits with numerous versions of the P-70, such as the FBR and the FAR. Various roofs are available as well. ----------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of the "PRR-Talk" mailing list! http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] P-70 Coach (HO models) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:35:23 -0500 Jerry & List First off, Bachman offers only one variation in a semi-RTR package (change out the couplers and road number). Eastern Car Works offers a few P-70 varients, in kit form. Because of this, I have gone the route of ECW. I like having the occasional "odd man out". Plus I find Bachman's rivits to be, shall we saw "somewhat over sized". The only flaw I have run into with ECW is that despite what ever care I may take, I can never achieve a relatively free rolling truck. So I always replace them. Occassionally I will encounter a twisted or warped side,roof or underframe, But with care and patience (and lots of rubberbands and blocking) I overcome this pit fall. One cavit, test fit all sections before final attachment and read the instructions thoroughly. Hope this helps in your decision. Walt Prusick ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:58:07 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] P-70 Coach HO-Models Bachmann seems to have just copied the some of ECW line (and added a D74 diner), so there is not much difference in the quality. They are both accurate P70s. However the Bachmann trucks win hands down, and the Bachmann cars are assembled with interiors and lights and usually available for less money! ECW, however, also makes a P70br and a P70far. And the ECW kits are flat kits and therefore easier to kitbash into other cars such as a single vestibule P70fr. I also think the Bachmann version of Tuscan red is way too light so you might be stuck disassembling them and repainting. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Colman Gerald wrote: > > To List: > > I would like opinions on who makes the best HO P-70 Coaches, other than > brass. > > I would like to build-up a fleet of P-70s and noticed that there is Bachman > Spectrum and Eastern Car Works. Who makes the best quality in terms of > detail, correctness to prototype, assembly, etc? Are there any other > available? > > Any thoughts would be most appreciated. Thanks in advance. > > Jerry Colman ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: RDG2124@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:32:26 EST Subject: [PRR] Pass. trucks PRR List, With the question on the P-70 coaches in HO, the comment was made about poor rolling ECW trucks. One great solution is the use of Intermountain Railway's ball-bearing wheel sets. These will make any "sticking brake" truck a free roller. The axles are not required to rotate in the sideframe pockets as the wheel turns on the axle! Equipped with these wheels sets a car can be put into motion just by lightly blowing on it. While the initial price may seem a little dear the results after re-wheeling a car will justify the expenditure. They come in both 33" and 36" diameters. Check with Merchandise Service as I believe they handle this vendor. Try it -- you will like it! Anyone for prototype length limiteds without having to overpower the front-end to get it around the layout?! Happy Modeling, Evan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:51:12 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [PRR] Pass. trucks >PRR List, > > With the question on the P-70 coaches in HO, the comment was made about >poor rolling ECW trucks. One great solution is the use of Intermountain >Railway's ball-bearing wheel sets. My experience with the ECW PRR 2D-P5 4 wheel trucks is that the axle holes in one sideframe were located incorrectly, making the truck useless. You can salvage one truck out of each set of two. The 6 wheel trucks (3D-P1) and their other 4 wheel trucks are just fine. Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:12:59 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Pass. trucks The problems I have had with ECW trucks have little to do with high friction bearings. The first problem is that the truck construction is so weak that the sideframes will spread at the bottom under the load of a properly weighted car. The second problem seems to be unique to the PRR Roller Bearing 4 wheel truck. Of each set of four sideframes, one side frame has a bearing hole cast so high that the sideframe drags at or below railhead height! I used to replace my ECW trucks with MDC PRR Roller Bearing trucks, but, alas, they are no longer available. Hopefully the new Capeline series of trucks will include a PRR truck. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== RDG2124@aol.com wrote: > > PRR List, > > With the question on the P-70 coaches in HO, the comment was made about > poor rolling ECW trucks. One great solution is the use of Intermountain > Railway's ball-bearing wheel sets. These will make any "sticking brake" > truck a free roller. The axles are not required to rotate in the sideframe > pockets as the wheel turns on the axle! Equipped with these wheels sets a > car can be put into motion just by lightly blowing on it. While the initial > price may seem a little dear the results after re-wheeling a car will justify > the expenditure. They come in both 33" and 36" diameters. > Check with Merchandise Service as I believe they handle this vendor. > > Try it -- you will like it! Anyone for prototype length limiteds without > having to overpower the front-end to get it around the layout?! > > Happy Modeling, > > Evan > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Bobspf@aol.com Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:35:03 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] P-70 Coach HO-Models In a message dated 2/28/01 8:13:55 AM Central Standard Time, ColmanG@tce.com writes: << I would like opinions on who makes the best HO P-70 Coaches, other than brass. >> Bachmann is RTR. However, unless you pay the premium for the prewar, they use the salmon-colored molded color as "tuscan" so to my eyes, you have to repaint. Usually need to restripe anyway on either Bachmann or ECW, as most appears inappropriate (e.g., single stripe below window in gold leaf) . I repainted and restriped the D78 and it makes a great difference. The coupler swing mechanism is helpful for guys with small radii, but for reliability you need to body-mount the couplers---some sag quite a bit and once they do, they are impossible to fix. Lighted interiors are a plus. ECW has finer rivets and the prepainted kits have a better paint color. Also, more variety of kits and, though I haven't done any, kitbashes would be easier. As previously mentioned by other posters, ECW trucks are difficult to get to run smoothly. Someone mentioned warping and fitting. If you can do it inconspicuously, I have found that using square channel styrene in corners to reinforce flat kit assemblies helps. Same is true of floors,roofs, though on floors, I have used brass square channel for even better stability and it adds weight low. A little bit of a challenge to hide if you are detailing an interior. Some of the real passenger car experts can help you with the correct underbody details. The ECW kit includes almost everything but doesn't explain what to use and where appropriate. I believe Bachmann's is generic, but I bow to the experts there. Bob Zoeller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:07:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Re: (PRR) P-70 Trucks was :P-70 Coach HO-Models List, I may have a suggestion on how to upgrade the Trucks that come with the ECW kits. I know this works for O scale cuase I see it done. I never tried it on my own plastic Alco P-70 kits yet. Before bulding the truck kit try this. On the backside of each sideframe, embed a small brass washer where the wheelset axles rides. You will need to enlarge the exsisting axle hole for proper fit of washer used. This washer has to be embedded flush with the back surface. The hole in the washer needs just a bit larger than the axle point diameter. The axle will ride in the washer when in service. If the holes are cockeyed like some listers mentioned, then find the correct center and embed the washer there. Then assemble the truck as the directions state. Like I said this was done on O scale Passenger equipment and it improved the running greatly. I wanted to do this on my Alco P-70 kit trucks because the holes where the axles enter the sideframes were worn badly very quickly when placed in service. This brass washer would work as a metal on metal bearing. Experiment with one and see if it works for you in HO Scale....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s, G5s and T1 WEB PAGES>>> PRR Loco Pics: http://prrsteam.pennsyrr.com and...... PRR Pics, Memorabilia and Models: http://www.angelfire.com/film/prrpics/indexpics.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:14:42 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] N6b vs N8 excuse me, more properly we refer to these as the N6a with the "Lines West" cupola, reminicent of the wide vision cupolas of the 1970s and orignally built in far greater numbers than the N6b with its ever-so-homely slant-sided "Panhandle" cupola introduced on the NB circa 1892 specifically to get through 10 tunnels with close clearances between Pittsburgh and Ulrichsville, Ohio, on what in the 1920s would become the Panhandle Division mainline. Tom V. In a message dated Tue, 27 Feb 2001 8:30:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, VVA249@aol.com writes: << A die or laser cut (wood or plastic) flat kit for an N-6 should be price competitive and allow the Mfg to offer bot the N-6a (box cupola) or N-6b (round cupola) >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:10:23 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR]PRR memories and the DT&I on Penn Central Hank, For quite some time I thought during the dark days of the Penn Central there was one derailment of a Penn Central or the scores that ocucrred between 1968 and 1976 on the old C&X and Dayton, Xenia & Belpre that formed the Columbus-Xenia-Dayton "passenger" line in the old PRR Columbus division. Then I learned the April 3, 1974 F5 Xenia tornado derailed a westbound DT&I freight. The old Little Miami Railroad, the Panhandle's Springfield branch was abandoned and pulled up in 1966 before the merger. A revitalized DT&I, beginning about 1963 reached Cincinnati using trackage rights on what the PC called the Xenia-Cincinnati Division between its mainline at South Charleston, about halfway between Xenia and London, Ohio, and Miamitown tower at the west end of the old Dayton Union Station Assn bridge across the Great Miami River. There those sharp looking Orange GP38s with five-chime Leslies that'd wake the dead would head south on the old Big Four Dayton-Cincinnati mainline right next to the Retail Merchants Delivery Service at the first grade crossing south of the tower, Albany Street, literally beneath the Interstate 75-U.S. 35 interchange southwest of downtown Dayton. Passage of these Geeps always merited a pause in my toils unloading plowshares, muritaic acid, serveral hundred lose stacked reams of of paper and any thing else the drivers would pick up for me to sort for the next day's deliveries. One of the more unusual loads I remember those orange DT&I geeps hauling was a nearly a whole trainload of shiny new M-60 main battle tanks strapped down on flats heading south. I guessed it was a shipment from Chrsyler's tank works in Lima, the old Lima Locomotive Works that built the 25 delightfully ugly LH-25 2,500 center cab transfer motor I'll buy in HO someday, headed for Fort Knox, Ky. At this time the EL still operated its Dayton spur that made these line appear to be double tracked from just west of Springfield into the Queen City but it wasn't used much. All I remember is the shiny new DT&I Geeps standing in stark contrast to the grimy, soot encrusted Sorrowful Black, Jade Green and Orange of the hated PC. The elevated crossing shanty perched atop four bent mainline rails which stood guard over the Panhandle's Dayton & Western's numerous mainline grade crossings near West Third Street in what today is being redeveoped as the Wright-Dunbar neighborhood can still be seen as part of the railroad collection at Dayton's Carilon Historical Park on across from NCR's world headquarters on Sou8th Patterson Boulevard about four block south of where a massive concrete and steel bridge with an intertwined PRR inside of a Keystone cast in relief on either side of the center pier today carries grass and scrub where it once carried cash registleers to the world on the PRR's Dayton, Lebanon & Cincnnati. All my PRR memories were out on the Southwest Region where the Pnahandle mainline was in sight of U.S. 40 nealry the entire way from Dayton to St. Louis. From 1956 to 1971 my fmaily made at least of these 330-mile journeys to visit Mom's people in the St. Louis area. Catching sight of a headlight down that single-tracked mainline in the middle of the Illinois prarie on a July day in the double 90s (Heat and you-know-what) was definitely a highlight for bored young boys tired of asking "are we there yet." It's this experience with what "Louisville" Rick Tipton calls "Granger lines with Keystones" that piqued my interest in the truly great American ralroad, Pennsylvania Railroad Lines West of Pittsburgh and Erie." "Lines West forever!" I was looking through my DeLorme Indiana Gazetteer the other night trying to remember off the top of my hear where the Pennsy lines were. The Pnahandle mainline betweeen Dayton and Richmond, Ind., and between Richmond and Indianapolis is completely gone as is a portion of the old Inidanapolis & Terre Haute east of Brazil. The Grand Rapids & Indiana still runs north out of Richmond but stops somewhere north of Portland. Ind., the Vincennes and Madsion branches are redcued to unconnected remants. The Jeffersonville, Madison & Indianapolis mainline to Louisville is still intact in the guise of the Louisville & Indiana with its Keystone herald. I'm going to have to stop. the tears are making it hard to type. Tom V. In a message dated Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:29:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, "H.&S." writes: << Hello all.... Penn Central ? Gee don't even get any PC memories going.(We might not want to remember PC) I was a PC conductors brat. Got way too many memories for that railroad. LOL Til Later Hank Mummert Jr. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Walt Prusick" Subject: [PRR] B-60 lettering Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:47:45 -0500 Guys, Started working on a couple of Bethlehem Car Works B-60 kits and the lettering is a stumbling block. The decals supplied are by Middel Division, and they show 4 configurations in their diagram. Now it is my intention to model an undecided portion of the Pennsy in the western PA area around 1952. Which of the configs do I follow. (A) Dulux - PRR Block with round P and S (B) Bronze Gold or Dulux same style as A above (C) Bronze Gold - PRR Futura (D) Bronze Gold - PRR Block with 'cove' P and S. My thinking is lettering B with a recently outshopped car in Dulux with the balance in Bronze Gold. I would greatly appreciate input before I make a major bobo. Thanks in advance. Walt Prusick BTW the above kits were bought at Jerry's consignment section, and included trucks. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!!