Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 07:53:37 -0500 From: Park Varieties Subject: [PRR] Former John Hall HO decals If you are still looking for some of the HO Pennsy or Reading decal sets formally offered by John Hall, we have just received a shipment from Dunlap's Depot. Please contact us directly off-list for descriptive listing of available sets and pricing. Frank Brua Park Varieties Southgate, MI ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 08:28:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Smashboards Dave wonders, >It would make an interesting list to see how many (smashboards) are left. There seem to be a number in New Jersey; I wonder if there was a state law requiring them, or something. Remember there have been drawbridge disasters, most notably the CNJ commuter train that ran off the Newark Bay drawbridge into the drink, back in the fifties. Could the state have required smashboards in response? They are still in service on some, and maybe all, tracks at Dock (Passaic River movable bridge at Newark) and at Hack (Hackensack River movable bridge on Passaic & Harsimus branch). They are also in service on the PATH tracks at these bridges. (And there is still (dead) catenary hanging over the PATH tracks at the Hackensack!) I'll keep my eyes open next time through; not sure about Portal, for example, and the P&H movable bridge Passaic River (Conrail calls it Karny, did PRR? or as mariners call it the Point No Point bridge) is hard to get to or spot! Also not sure whether other roads in the area use, or used, smashboards. What about the NY&LB, for example? A number of movable bridges down there. John Bobsin Basking Ridge, NJ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 08:47:28 EST From: NDBPRR@aol.com Subject: [PRR] Ebay listings Does anybody know where the model train listings went on E bay? First they isolated them in a new category and yesterday the category disappeared from the listing when I pulled it up. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 08:49:12 EST From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Smashboards John & folks, I can't really give you much of an answer on Jersey's laws, but I do recall seeing photos in RMC in the 1960 era showing PRSL Baldwins waiting at smashboards in South Jersey. Seems this was on one of their secondary lines near the Delaware, but who they'd have been crossing down there I can't say. Might even have been two PRSL lines, as they had quite a tangle of industrial branchs down there south of Camden. Seems I've seen other references to smashboards as well; perhaps you might check with Bill Strassner? He used to be an operator down in those parts. Regards, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 08:59:31 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Ebay listings From: Jerry Britton On 2/1/01 8:47 AM, NDBPRR@aol.com (NDBPRR@aol.com) wrote: > Does anybody know where the model train listings went on E bay? First they > isolated them in a new category and yesterday the category disappeared from > the listing when I pulled it up. > Last month they announced that "at some point" they would be moving to a new "Hobbies & Crafts" area. I just checked, and it is active at http://pages.ebay.com/catindex/hobbies.html --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:19:55 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Smashboards From: Fred G Rea There is one in Uhrichsville OH at the location of the late UHRICH tower. It is where RJ Corman(nee B&O) crosses the Ohio Central (nee PRR-Panhandle). The interesting thing about it is, when I found it last year, it was SMASHED! A tangled hunk of bright yellow pipe! The OC line sees fairly regular traffic (once or twice a day I think) but the RJC line sees almost none. The track end a mile or so South of there now. Fred Rea Columbus OH ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:26:10 EST Subject: [PRR] Earl's Wilmington Station Guys - For all of you who would like to get a look at what building one of the Wilmington Station should look like when assembled and semi-painted (it's not complete as of yet) stop by our tables at Springfield this weekend. As always we don't know where we'll be until we get there but search us out. This will be worth it! We just received Earl's model that he is working on and has graciously allowed us to use for display. All I can say is WOWW! I will try to get pictures and post them on the website next week for those of you who can't make it. You guys are going to miss a real treat. I happen to know that Earl attended some painting clinics in Florida. Do I detect a little Greg Martin influence here? Dayna Trainstuff LLC ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Smashboards Date: Thu, 1 Feb 101 09:21:38 -0500 (EST) bobsin@nac.net scribit: > > Dave wonders, > > There seem to be a number in New Jersey; I wonder if there was a > state law requiring them, or something. Remember there have > been drawbridge disasters, most notably the CNJ commuter train > that ran off the Newark Bay drawbridge into the drink, back in the > fifties. Could the state have required smashboards in response? I don't know about laws, but smashboards were a very frequent (dare I call it "standard"?) practice. > They are still in service on some, and maybe all, tracks at Dock > (Passaic River movable bridge at Newark) and at Hack > (Hackensack River movable bridge on Passaic & Harsimus > branch). They are also in service on the PATH tracks at these > bridges. (And there is still (dead) catenary hanging over the PATH > tracks at the Hackensack!) I made a trip through them parts, hitting potentially closing Conrail towers, in 1995 or 1996. I don't recall seeing a movable bridge without smashboards. As to PRR years, you will find all smashboards shown on the interlocking diagrams I have scanned and put up on the web. They are (for now) at http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk but will soon be moving to a new home at http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk For North Jersey, see the main line and branches pages for "Philadelphia to New York". For South Jersey, see the PRSL page. > I'll keep my eyes open next time through; not sure about Portal, for > example, and the P&H movable bridge Passaic River (Conrail calls > it Karny, did PRR? or as mariners call it the Point No Point bridge) > is hard to get to or spot! Actually, not that hard. N.J. 7, as I recall? -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: [PRR] Wye Min Radius Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:37:13 -0500 My PRR Renovo Division will have 28" min radius on mainline tracks. How small can I go on min radius for wye tracks? My largest engines are Bowser I-1, M-1, and L-1. Can I go to 24"? Smaller? Even 18"? TIA Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. & downtown Williamsport PA WWII ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 10:53:42 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Wye Min Radius From: Jerry Britton On 2/1/01 9:37 AM, Bill Bigler (wbigler@stny.rr.com) wrote: > My PRR Renovo Division will have 28" min radius on mainline tracks. How > small can I go on min radius for wye tracks? My largest engines are Bowser > I-1, M-1, and L-1. Can I go to 24"? Smaller? Even 18"? TIA > I definitely would not go below 22" for aesthetic reasons, but mechanically that may actually be too small. --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:00:38 -0600 From: "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." Subject: Re: [ldsig][PRR] Min. Radius for Wye Tracks Bill Bigler wrote: >My PRR Renovo Division will have 28" min radius on mainline tracks. How >small can I go on min radius for wye tracks? My largest engines are Bowser >I-1, M-1, and L-1. Can I go to 24"? Smaller? Even 18"? TIA Ouch - hate to do this Bill...but have you tested your locomotives on that radius? I have a 28" radius test track and both Sunset and Railworks I1s routinely short out the front wheel. My M1 works, but...it ain't pretty. My L1 is probably fine down to around 24". Now, you can substitute plastic wheels, as insulated metal wheels will continue to short (on one side) however, plastic (Delrin) wheels have been banned from from my rails. I purchased a full circle of Botchman EZ track at 33" radius and the I-1 look soooo much better that I am going to that as my minimum radius. Of course, that is before I get my Bowser T-1 rebuilt with a protypic rigid frame (an ongoing project ) Happy Rails Bruce Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. Scott-Ritchey Research Center 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin __ / \ __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 11:09:24 EST From: BPX29@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Wye Min Radius Bill, I don't know what brand of turnouts you're using, but usually wye switchs are designated by number (eg #4 wye,etc). The nice thing about a wye switch is that the angle is split between the diverging routes, so in effect a #4 is in the order of a #8 turnout. Seems to me the Atlas wyes I've fiddled with could almost plop right into a 30" radius curve, but that's going from memory, and perhaps they were a bit larger radius than that. But if you're hand laying, your frog angle could be more customized, obviously. I don't see any reason those Bowser engines wouldn't take a 24", or even less. Most engines will take that radius with no operating problems, though it may look a little tight visually.I have a friend whose layout features 24" radius on the main line, and he runs any non-brass steam, including some Bowsers, easily, along with full length passenger cars. You might get away with 22" with no problems in a pinch, certainly up to the 2-10-0. Come to think of it, didn't the BOw! ser catalog state that any of it 's steamers will take an 18"? Good luck, Barry Peltier ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Subject: [PRR] Number Plates Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:40:56 -0600 What was the background color for the Steam Loco's number plates? Was it plain black or DGLE? Or was it a lighter shade like Forrest green? Thanx in advance for any replies. J. Hildenbrand ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: [PRR] [AD] Stewart PRR VO-1000 Arrives! Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 11:58:13 -0500 The Stewart Models PRR VO-1000 has finally been received! Three models are available, #5913, #5919 and decorated with no number. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S Hobbies http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 (732) 271-0800 Voice (732) 271-0805 Fax ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 12:09:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Number Plates J Hildenbrand, Round Freight Number Plates were Black background with buff numerals. Later years it looks like some were painted a brighter yellow. Keystone plates were Toulidine Red with either Gold or Dulux Numerals, depending on the era. Bennett Levin can give you the paint numbers if needed. I am still waiting Bennett (Hint) .........Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 12:38:30 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [ldsig][PRR] Min. Radius for Wye Tracks Before you get any mechanical problems you are likely to get a short between the engine and tender unless you have coupled the tender so far aft as to cause the fireman's union to strike! One solution I have used to solve this problem is to electrically isolate the tender body from the tender frame. For example on a Bowser loco replace the screw holding the frame to the shell with nylon screws and put Kadee fiber washers between the shell and the frame. I usually drill and tap a new hole in the frame to attach the wire to the loco to. Now the shell no longer has any electrical bias, and if it grazes the edge of the cab no short will occur! Using this technique I have been able to recouple my Bowser engines at almost a prototype distance. Although I do not operate on 24" r turns, the technique ought to improve the operation for any radius. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== "Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D." wrote: > > Bill Bigler wrote: > > >My PRR Renovo Division will have 28" min radius on mainline tracks. How > >small can I go on min radius for wye tracks? My largest engines are Bowser > >I-1, M-1, and L-1. Can I go to 24"? Smaller? Even 18"? TIA > > Ouch - hate to do this Bill...but have you tested your locomotives on that > radius? I have a 28" radius test track and both Sunset and Railworks I1s > routinely short out the front wheel. My M1 works, but...it ain't pretty. > My L1 is probably fine down to around 24". Now, you can substitute plastic > wheels, as insulated metal wheels will continue to short (on one side) > however, plastic (Delrin) wheels have been banned from from my rails. I > purchased a full circle of Botchman EZ track at 33" radius and the I-1 look > soooo much better that I am going to that as my minimum radius. Of course, > that is before I get my Bowser T-1 rebuilt with a protypic rigid frame (an > ongoing project ) > > Happy Rails > Bruce > > Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. > Scott-Ritchey Research Center > 334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax) > http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/ > > "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin > __ > / \ > __<+--+>________________\__/___ ____________________________________ > |- ______/ O O \_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ | > | / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__|| > |/_____________________________\|_|____________________________________| > | O--O \0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Smashboards Date: Thu, 1 Feb 101 12:38:30 -0500 (EST) Fred G Rea scribit: > > There is one in Uhrichsville OH at the location of the late UHRICH tower. > It is where RJ Corman(nee B&O) crosses the Ohio Central (nee > PRR-Panhandle). The interesting thing about it is, when I found it last > year, it was SMASHED! A tangled hunk of bright yellow pipe! The OC line > sees fairly regular traffic (once or twice a day I think) but the RJC > line sees almost none. The track end a mile or so South of there now. So why does RJC bother? Why not just sell to the OC? ObPrr: The Panhandle main is in a topographically interesting location. Much better lay of the land than the Fort Wayne, IMHO. But terribly remote. Once leaving the Ohio valley, no population centers to speak of until Columbus. (And recall that Columbus' growth is really rather recent.) -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Mark Bej Subject: Re: [PRR] Wye Min Radius Date: Thu, 1 Feb 101 12:39:50 -0500 (EST) Bill Bigler scribit: > > My PRR Renovo Division will have 28" min radius on mainline tracks. How > small can I go on min radius for wye tracks? My largest engines are Bowser > I-1, M-1, and L-1. Can I go to 24"? Smaller? Even 18"? TIA Oh, heck, go for 15"! Just remember that *prototype* wye tracks were famous for derailing equipment! :-)))) -- Mark ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 14:54:56 -0500 From: Bennett Levin Subject: Re: [PRR] Smashboards They were still on the NYLB as of last year and I recall them there as early as the 1940's. Are they on the NEC at locations in Maryland where there are moveable bridges or are the bridges not moveable any longer? Bennett Mark Bej wrote: > > bobsin@nac.net scribit: > > > > Dave wonders, > > > > There seem to be a number in New Jersey; I wonder if there was a > > state law requiring them, or something. Remember there have > > been drawbridge disasters, most notably the CNJ commuter train > > that ran off the Newark Bay drawbridge into the drink, back in the > > fifties. Could the state have required smashboards in response? > > I don't know about laws, but smashboards were a very frequent (dare I > call it "standard"?) practice. > > > They are still in service on some, and maybe all, tracks at Dock > > (Passaic River movable bridge at Newark) and at Hack > > (Hackensack River movable bridge on Passaic & Harsimus > > branch). They are also in service on the PATH tracks at these > > bridges. (And there is still (dead) catenary hanging over the PATH > > tracks at the Hackensack!) > > I made a trip through them parts, hitting potentially closing Conrail > towers, in 1995 or 1996. I don't recall seeing a movable bridge without > smashboards. > > As to PRR years, you will find all smashboards shown on the > interlocking diagrams I have scanned and put up on the web. > They are (for now) at > http://www.neuro.ccf.org/~bejm/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk > but will soon be moving to a new home at > http://broadway.pennsyrr.com/Rail/Prr/Maps/Itlk > > For North Jersey, see the main line and branches pages for > "Philadelphia to New York". For South Jersey, see the PRSL > page. > > > I'll keep my eyes open next time through; not sure about Portal, for > > example, and the P&H movable bridge Passaic River (Conrail calls > > it Karny, did PRR? or as mariners call it the Point No Point bridge) > > is hard to get to or spot! > > Actually, not that hard. N.J. 7, as I recall? > > -- > Mark > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 15:35:20 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Smashboards Bennett said the smashboards are still in place on the NY&LB. Any specifics? Offhand I remember movable bridges at the Raritan River, Morgan, Oceanport, Shark River, and Manasquan; all of these bridges should still be in place, except possibly Oceanport. And I bet somebody will remind me of one or two more. Do all of these still have smashboards? And what about the Trenton-Camden line, now being rebuilt for the "light rail" diesel line? There must be a few draws there; are there smashboards and will they survive the reconstruction? Oh yes, go way back, there used to be a draw across the canal on the Princeton Branch, no? John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:21:14 -0500 (EST) From: chaslett@cse.l-3com.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Smashboards I can report on one location along the new Trenton-Camden line. The movable bridge (swing, I believe) across the Rancocas River is being replaced by a permanent rail bridge at an elevation of about 24' above high tide. The right of way was ripped up about 1/4 to 1/2 mile in each direction to provide the grade. Carl Haslett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "E. Mike" Subject: Re: [PRR] Smashboards Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 21:21:43 -0000 I remember there were smashboards at the Paulsboro Moveable Bridge on the Penn's Grove Line in Paulsboro NJ many years ago. When I visited the bridge the southern SB had been smashed through and the board was lying on the ground. Had I been a better railfan back then I would have taken it. I recently checked on the progress of the Delanco Bridge on the new Light Rail line. Both home signal/smashboard combinations have been removes along w/ the track on either side of the bridge. The Caution Only distant signals are still in place and I photographed them both. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Sam Vastano" Subject: Re: [PRR] Wye Min Radius Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 19:18:48 -0500 Group, I ahve run my Bowser M1 on 22" radius it works. Looks kinda funny but it works Sam >From: Jerry Britton >To: Bill Bigler , >Subject: Re: [PRR] Wye Min Radius >Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 10:53:42 -0500 > >On 2/1/01 9:37 AM, Bill Bigler (wbigler@stny.rr.com) wrote: > > > My PRR Renovo Division will have 28" min radius on mainline tracks. How > > small can I go on min radius for wye tracks? My largest engines are >Bowser > > I-1, M-1, and L-1. Can I go to 24"? Smaller? Even 18"? TIA > > >I definitely would not go below 22" for aesthetic reasons, but mechanically >that may actually be too small. >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com >Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: endeimling@mindspring.com Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 19:57:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Re: [PRR] Wye Min Radius Jerry: Please unsubscribe me from this list endeimling@mindspring.com I have change my ISP and no longer have access to send mail. Sorry for the bandwidth. Gene Deimling Sam Vastano wrote: > Group, I ahve run my Bowser M1 on 22" radius it works. Looks kinda funny but it works Sam >From: Jerry Britton >To: Bill Bigler , >Subject: Re: [PRR] Wye Min Radius >Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 10:53:42 -0500 > >On 2/1/01 9:37 AM, Bill Bigler (wbigler@stny.rr.com) wrote: > > > My PRR Renovo Division will have 28" min radius on mainline tracks. How > > small can I go on min radius for wye tracks? My largest engines are >Bowser > > I-1, M-1, and L-1. Can I go to 24"? Smaller? Even 18"? TIA > > >I definitely would not go below 22" for aesthetic reasons, but mechanically >that may actually be too small. >--------------------------------------------------------- >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > http://kc.pennsyrr.com >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com >Free serving of railroad web sites > http://www.railfancentral.com > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to >"listserv@dsop.com". _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 21:21:30 -0500 (EST) From: Derrick J Brashear Subject: Re: [PRR] Smashboards On Thu, 1 Feb 101, Mark Bej wrote: > The Panhandle main is in a topographically interesting location. Much better > lay of the land than the Fort Wayne, IMHO. But terribly remote. Once leaving > the Ohio valley, no population centers to speak of until Columbus. (And recall > that Columbus' growth is really rather recent.) Indeed, my trip in September bore this out; some parts of the line can't be paralleled other than by foot, or with a 4 wheel drive vehicle (and presumably then only by trespassing; i neither had a 4 wheel drive vehicle nor was particularly interested in tresspassing) -D ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: [PRR] [AD] P1K C-Liner B Units & P2K Phase I GP-7 Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:21:43 -0500 Life Like officially announced the Proto-1000 Powered C-Liner B Unit. PRR road numbers will be 9448B and 9493B. Other roads include Milwaukee Road and NYC. Delivery is scheduled for May. Also for May delivery is the Proto-2000 Phase I GP-7. PRR road numbers include 8797, 8804 and 8799. Other roads include Santa Fe, ACL, C&O, CB&Q, Erie, MoPac, Southern and Undecorated. Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S Hobbies http://www.onerrave.com Featuring over 10,000 IN-STOCK model railroad items 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 (732) 271-0800 Voice (732) 271-0805 Fax ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Bigler" Subject: Re: [PRR] Wye Min Radius Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:46:10 -0500 Note that I'm only going to use this wye min radius for an off-mainline wye, so it won't be used that much - it's more to represent the wye that was there in my model than for operational purposes. I will have reversing loops at both ends of the railroad for turning equipment. Thanks for the replies. Bill Bigler Big Flats NY Modeling PRR Renovo Div. & downtown Williamsport WWII ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Vastano" To: ; ; Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 7:18 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Wye Min Radius > Group, > > I ahve run my Bowser M1 on 22" radius it works. Looks kinda funny but it > works > > Sam > > > > >From: Jerry Britton > >To: Bill Bigler , > >Subject: Re: [PRR] Wye Min Radius > >Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 10:53:42 -0500 > > > >On 2/1/01 9:37 AM, Bill Bigler (wbigler@stny.rr.com) wrote: > > > > > My PRR Renovo Division will have 28" min radius on mainline tracks. How > > > small can I go on min radius for wye tracks? My largest engines are > >Bowser > > > I-1, M-1, and L-1. Can I go to 24"? Smaller? Even 18"? TIA > > > > >I definitely would not go below 22" for aesthetic reasons, but mechanically > >that may actually be too small. > >--------------------------------------------------------- > >Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com > >Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. > >"Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" > > http://kc.pennsyrr.com > >"Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products > > http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com > >Free serving of railroad web sites > > http://www.railfancentral.com > > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > >For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > >"listserv@dsop.com". > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:56:13 -0500 Lists: Does anyone know if the PRR used "tell-tales" (a contraption of dangling ropes used to warn trainmen atop cars of an approaching bridge or tunnel) in non-electrified territory? I realized that the only photo I have seen of a PRR locomotive on a track with "tell-tales" was on the NKP's tracks. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 10:59:33 -0500 Subject: [PRR] Re: [PRR-n_scale] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? From: Jerry Britton On 2/2/01 10:56 AM, Gregg Mahlkov (mahlkov@gtcom.net) wrote: > Does anyone know if the PRR used "tell-tales" (a contraption of dangling > ropes used to warn trainmen atop cars of an approaching bridge or tunnel) in > non-electrified territory? I realized that the only photo I have seen of a > PRR locomotive on a track with "tell-tales" > was on the NKP's tracks. > Strictly from recollection, but I think Alexander's book "On the Main Line" has a photo of Tunnel Hill with tell-tales. The book features photos from the late 1800's. Another source might be "Pennsy Steam and Semaphores". --------------------------------------------------------- Jerry Britton, SPF Member, PRRT&HS jerry@pennsyrr.com Pennsylvania Railroad, Eastern Region, 1954 in N Scale. "Keystone Crossings" - Home of "PRR-Talk" http://kc.pennsyrr.com "Merchandise Service" - Model railroad products http://merchandise.pennsyrr.com Free serving of railroad web sites http://www.railfancentral.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Chany, Christopher" Subject: RE: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:07:53 -0500 Gregg, I believe in the book 57 MOW plans of the PRR there is a drawing of a std. "tell tale" including instructions for placement. I'm at work right now so I can't check. Chris Chany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 12:29:00 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: Re: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? Last year's Cedco PRR calendar had a foto of a mail and express train with E8s on the front leaving Altoona WB. I could tell that the foto was taken from an overpass; not only from the angle but also from the telltales between the camera and the train. Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== Gregg Mahlkov wrote: > > Lists: > > Does anyone know if the PRR used "tell-tales" (a contraption of dangling > ropes used to warn trainmen atop cars of an approaching bridge or tunnel) in > non-electrified territory? I realized that the only photo I have seen of a > PRR locomotive on a track with "tell-tales" > was on the NKP's tracks. > > Gregg Mahlkov > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" Subject: Re: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 12:27:58 -0500 Fellow PRR'ers.... PRR did NOT have tell tales . According to page 14 in the PRR Standard MOW Plan book, they show Standard Bridge Warning devices. Other railroads had tell tales.... Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S Hobbies http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 (732) 271-0800 Voice (732) 271-0805 Fax ----- Original Message ----- From: Chany, Christopher To: 'Gregg Mahlkov' ; ; Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 11:07 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? > Gregg, > > I believe in the book 57 MOW plans of the PRR there is a drawing of a std. > "tell tale" including instructions for placement. I'm at work right now so > I can't check. > > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 12:45:57 -0500 Dennis:- Do you mean the same as.... "PRR didn't have cabooses, it had cabin cars?" Gregg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis @ D & S Hobbies" To: "Chany, Christopher" ; "'Gregg Mahlkov'" ; ; Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 12:27 PM Subject: Re: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? > Fellow PRR'ers.... > > PRR did NOT have tell tales . According to page 14 in the PRR Standard > MOW Plan book, they show Standard Bridge Warning devices. Other railroads > had tell tales.... > > Dennis > mailto:dennis@onerrave.com > > D & S Hobbies > http://www.onerrave.com > 34 Main Street > South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 > > (732) 271-0800 Voice > (732) 271-0805 Fax > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chany, Christopher > To: 'Gregg Mahlkov' ; ; > > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 11:07 AM > Subject: RE: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? > > > > Gregg, > > > > I believe in the book 57 MOW plans of the PRR there is a drawing of a std. > > "tell tale" including instructions for placement. I'm at work right now > so > > I can't check. > > > > Chris Chany > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > > "listserv@dsop.com". > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: bobsin@nac.net Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:04:13 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? They didn't have dispatchers either . . . or (locomotive) engineers . . . Now was there absolutely nothing ever used in (AC) electrified territory? Not that anyone is supposed to be on top of a car! Of course, to be really accurate, I bet they had those things in DC electrified territory! John Bobsin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:00:17 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] PFtW&C east of Pittsburgh? It runs in my mind that somewhere (maybe Schotter?) I read that early on in the game, PRR relied on "friendly relations" with lines west of Pittsburgh, such as the Ft. Wayne, to secure traffic to and from the west. PRR got more actively into owning/controlling western lines when it was discovered that the Ft. Wayne intended to extend east of Pittsburgh. It may have been that there were surveys in progress when PRR got wind of the move. So far, does this sound familiar, or have I been exposed to a reality distortion field? Some time ago my mother, who lived the first 32 years of her life (starting in 1904) in Vandergrift, Pa, told me that "...at one time there was talk that another RR was going to be built along the other side of the river." "the river" is the Kiskiminitas, "the other side" is the side not occupied by the former Western Penna., later PRR Conemaugh Div. That she spoke of it as if the "talk" had occurred in her presence means nothing, she spoke similarly of events which happened years before her birth. Anyway, when she said that, a bell rang as that thought bumped into the stuff outlined in the first two paragraphs. So the whole question is: Did the Ft. Wayne actually set out to "invade" PRR territory, did the Kiski valley figure in that "invasion", and when was all that going on? Inquiring minds want to know. ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:24:58 -0500 Just like how the Pennsy did not have any cabooses, they had "cabin cars" :) Happy Groundhog Day! Ted Andrews P.S.: Did the PRR ever go through Punxsutawney? -----Original Message----- From: Dennis @ D & S Hobbies [mailto:dennis@onerrave.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 12:28 PM To: Chany, Christopher; 'Gregg Mahlkov'; PRR-Talk@dsop.com; PRR-n_scale@egroups.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? Fellow PRR'ers.... PRR did NOT have tell tales . According to page 14 in the PRR Standard MOW Plan book, they show Standard Bridge Warning devices. Other railroads had tell tales.... Dennis mailto:dennis@onerrave.com D & S Hobbies http://www.onerrave.com 34 Main Street South Bound Brook, NJ 08880 (732) 271-0800 Voice (732) 271-0805 Fax ----- Original Message ----- From: Chany, Christopher To: 'Gregg Mahlkov' ; ; Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 11:07 AM Subject: RE: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? > Gregg, > > I believe in the book 57 MOW plans of the PRR there is a drawing of a std. > "tell tale" including instructions for placement. I'm at work right now so > I can't check. > > Chris Chany > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: SUVCWORR@aol.com Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:33:35 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] PFtW&C east of Pittsburgh? In a message dated 02/02/2001 14:08:01 Eastern Standard Time, wb3iqe@rocketmail.com writes: > Some time ago my mother, who lived the first 32 years > of her life (starting in 1904) in Vandergrift, Pa, > told me that "...at one time there was talk that > another RR was going to be built along the other side > of the river." "the river" is the Kiskiminitas, "the > other side" is the side not occupied by the former > Western Penna., later PRR Conemaugh Div. > You mother may have been referring to the Sam Rea Line. The PRR planed and surveyed this line as a shorter more water level route than the mainline. There was an article on the Sam Rea Line several years ago in the Keystone. It was intended as a freight only line and as I recall connected to the Allegheny Valley and near Gallitzin. This was not an extension of the Ft Wayne line. In Pittsburgh, the Western Penna was on one bank of the Allegheny and the Allegheny Valley on the other. Both controlled by the PRR. Considering the stranglehold the PRR had on the state legislature, it is doubtful that a competing road would get permission to build along side either bank of the river. They would have had to follow the CSTX (nee B&O) ROW north to of the Butler branch Butler and then head east. At some point they would still need to cross the PRR Allegheny Valley line It would have been possible by agreement with the Pittsburgh & Shamut to get over the PRR since they already had the overhead ROW but then where do you go? It would make a very long circuitous route to Philadelphia and require crossing the Low grade and the P&E several times. Rich Orr ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:37:39 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: RE: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? --- "Andrews, Ted" wrote: > P.S.: Did the PRR ever go through Punxsutawney? As a matter of fact, it did. Started at Bellwood on the Middle Div., went more-or-less west-north-westward over Allegheny Mtn., along various stream valleys in the upper watershed of the West Branch of the Susquehanna, crossed other PRR lines as it did so, eventually arrived at McGees Mills, gathered strength for the climb over Canoe Ridge. Descended from same into the valley of Mahoning Creek. Just before entering Punxsutawney, uttered the Elk Run Branch which took off (over a timber trestle which lasted into PC days) to reach Anita (pronounced a-night-a, not a-neat-a) where there were a couple of coal mines. (Actually a bit more complex than that, but I don't have a CT1000 at hand.) Main line continued down Mahoning Creek to Horatio, Pa. , a few miles downstream from Punxsy. I don't know why. Perhaps PRR wished to occupy enough of the Mahoning Creek valley to prevent others from using it to build into PRR territory. As of today, the track(s) in question are gone, but most of the grade is visible, a bridge over Mahoning Creek, and US119's bridge over the grade are still visible. Aren't you glad you asked? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PFtW&C east of Pittsburgh? Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:50:48 -0500 Bob:- It was not the PFtW&C but the Vanderbilts that proposed to build the South Pennsylvania railroad. Grading was begun and tunnels were cut that eventually became the nucleus for the Pennsylvania Turnpike. The PRR had invaded NYC territory by gaining control of the West Shore. J. P. Morgan called the principals aboard his yacht and the "pax pierpontis" was negotiated. The Vanderbilts pulled the same thing on Long Island, only when the ICC wouldn't let them build the railroad, they turned the right-of-way into the first limited access turnpike. The 1904 date, though, sounds like the Gould era, when he controlled the WP, DRGW, MP, WAB and P&WV and was angling for a transcontinental, Remember, the grading lay unused for over half a century before turnpike construction was begun. Gregg Mahlkov ----- Original Message ----- From: "robert netzlof" To: Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 2:00 PM Subject: [PRR] PFtW&C east of Pittsburgh? > It runs in my mind that somewhere (maybe Schotter?) I > read that early on in the game, PRR relied on > "friendly relations" with lines west of Pittsburgh, > such as the Ft. Wayne, to secure traffic to and from > the west. PRR got more actively into > owning/controlling western lines when it was > discovered that the Ft. Wayne intended to extend east > of Pittsburgh. > > It may have been that there were surveys in progress > when PRR got wind of the move. So far, does this sound > familiar, or have I been exposed to a reality > distortion field? > > Some time ago my mother, who lived the first 32 years > of her life (starting in 1904) in Vandergrift, Pa, > told me that "...at one time there was talk that > another RR was going to be built along the other side > of the river." "the river" is the Kiskiminitas, "the > other side" is the side not occupied by the former > Western Penna., later PRR Conemaugh Div. > > That she spoke of it as if the "talk" had occurred in > her presence means nothing, she spoke similarly of > events which happened years before her birth. Anyway, > when she said that, a bell rang as that thought bumped > into the stuff outlined in the first two paragraphs. > > So the whole question is: Did the Ft. Wayne actually > set out to "invade" PRR territory, did the Kiski > valley figure in that "invasion", and when was all > that going on? > > Inquiring minds want to know. > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob > > > __________________________________________________ > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 17:14:04 -0500 From: Dan Cupper Subject: Re: [PRR] PFtW&C east of Pittsburgh? Greetings to Bob, Gregg and the List: Actually, it was the Erie that was getting too friendly with the Fort Wayne, which prompted PRR to settle the matter by buying control. As already noted, the South Pennsylvania was the next attempt to parallel the PRR, in 1883-1885. Gregg, you're correct--1904, is when Gould's Wabash-Pittsburgh Terminal, predecessor of Pittsburgh & West Virginia, came across the Monongahela in defiance of PRR's best efforts to block it. W-PT trackage in the city itself makes an interesting study. The tracks that entered the stub-end "Palace Depor" did indeed stop there, but the freight tracks that paralleled them pointed straight toward Gould's dream of bridging the Allegheny on his way east. That gateway to the east did come about, but in different form--via P&WV's extension to Connellsville and a connection with Western Maryland, which occurred quite late in the scheme of things (February 1931). Around 1910, an electric interurban line proposed 10-hour service between Chicago and New York (Seems simple enough--10 hours of travel at 100 mph!). It completed a few miles of track in Indiana and no more. Finally, in the 1920s -- at a time when the federal government was trying to consolidate railroads because they were overbuilt in the first place, not encourage more construction -- an upstart proposal surfaced. A group of investors proposed building a new, freight-only, reasonably level-grade line across Pennsylvania. Their petition went to an ICC hearing, where PRR, Lackawanna, and others testified against it. The ICC denied permission. But what might have been: According to a friend who once gathered a lot of research on the case, the line intended to use Berkshires resembling those of the Erie. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@worldnet.att.net Psalm 22 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 17:26:37 -0500 (EST) From: chaslett@cse.l-3com.com Subject: Re: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? Yes, there were several sets over the tracks in downtown Altoona. I remember seeing them (probably it was the late 60's) around the 17th St highway bridge and probably the 12th St footbridge. Carl Haslett ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: Re: [PRR] PFtW&C east of Pittsburgh? Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 17:53:57 -0500 Dan and list: Re: your paragraph about the 1920's proposal - shades of the Continental Railway Company! (see the map on the Library of Congress pre-1900 map website) Gregg Mahlkov Dan Cupper writes: Finally, in the 1920s -- at a time when the federal government was trying to consolidate railroads because they were overbuilt in the first place, not encourage more construction -- an upstart proposal surfaced. A group of investors proposed building a new, freight-only, reasonably level-grade line across Pennsylvania. Their petition went to an ICC hearing, where PRR, Lackawanna, and others testified against it. The ICC denied permission. But what might have been: According to a friend who once gathered a lot of research on the case, the line intended to use Berkshires resembling those of the Erie. > > > Dan Cupper > cupper@worldnet.att.net > Psalm 22 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 16:04:23 -0500 Bob: Thank you for your detailed reply. I am glad that I asked because maybe the Pennsy influenced past winters. For example, the Punxsutawney Phil may not have seen his shadow due to the sun being blocked by the passing of two I-1's and a string of H-21's! After all, those Hippos working a coal train on grades can get mighty smokey! How knows? Maybe the Pennsy could influnenced an early spring. :) Something to ponder this weekend...... Ted Andrews Carmel, Indiana -----Original Message----- From: robert netzlof [mailto:wb3iqe@rocketmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 2:38 PM To: PRR-Talk@dsop.com Subject: RE: [PRR] Did PRR use "tell-tales"? --- "Andrews, Ted" wrote: > P.S.: Did the PRR ever go through Punxsutawney? As a matter of fact, it did. Started at Bellwood on the Middle Div., went more-or-less west-north-westward over Allegheny Mtn., along various stream valleys in the upper watershed of the West Branch of the Susquehanna, crossed other PRR lines as it did so, eventually arrived at McGees Mills, gathered strength for the climb over Canoe Ridge. Descended from same into the valley of Mahoning Creek. Just before entering Punxsutawney, uttered the Elk Run Branch which took off (over a timber trestle which lasted into PC days) to reach Anita (pronounced a-night-a, not a-neat-a) where there were a couple of coal mines. (Actually a bit more complex than that, but I don't have a CT1000 at hand.) Main line continued down Mahoning Creek to Horatio, Pa. , a few miles downstream from Punxsy. I don't know why. Perhaps PRR wished to occupy enough of the Mahoning Creek valley to prevent others from using it to build into PRR territory. As of today, the track(s) in question are gone, but most of the grade is visible, a bridge over Mahoning Creek, and US119's bridge over the grade are still visible. Aren't you glad you asked? ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Mike Morrow" Subject: [PRR] Brass info Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 19:54:39 -0500 I think I'm going to take the plunge and purchase my first brass locomotive but I don't know very much about them. I want an I-1sa with a 210F82 tender. Which manufacturers are the best? Do they all run well? For the price I would hope they would run like clocks. How about custom painting or factory painting? Any recommendations? I considered Bowser but I don't think I want to take the time to build one while getting started on a layout too. Thanks in advance. Mike Morrow PRRT&HS #6703 The Elmira Branch 1956-57 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 20:27:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Brass info Mike, If you consider Brass, you got to decide what your budget is. There have been a handful of I-1s imported for you to consider. The old reliable PFM's which were inported circa 1970 are a good start. Has its slight faults but reliable in operation. Prices range from $300.00 $450.00. This has the short trnder though. However, PFM did import seperately the long tender. Expect to pay about $125.00 for that if you can find one. Watch out for the one with the skinny boiler. The cheated by installing the K4 Boiler on one run. You can see the difference hen compared with the correct version. Although the correct version is a bit undersized too. Sunset Models imported one about 9 years ago. This one has the long tender. A little sparce on detail but you can always add what you want. Prices are about the same as a PFM. Key Models imported one in the 1980's. Heard bad stories about that one. It was released with a Kiesel Style Tender. Although not wrong, but not real common. Prices range in the $400 area. Key also released a batch in the 1990's. These are the good ones. Several variations from an Altoona Build without Feedwater Heater to the Baldwin I1sa's. Came both Unpaintd and Factory Painted I believe. Really good looking beasts. Quite Expennsive though. Roughly $700.00 and up. The latest to be released was the Railworks I1's. Again several variations to choose from. Can't comment on them personally but again I think I heard some booboos involved with them too. Came Factory Painted (too green for me) and Brass color. Short Tenders and Long Tendered versions were available. Prices are in the $725.00 too. There you go. That is the run down of Brass I-1's in HO Scale. Personally I have an old PFM I1 updated with Can Motor and a late run Key I1sa. I like them both. .....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Subject: [PRR] G 26 (again) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 20:47:17 -0500 Hi All, Thank you to all who replied to my previous G26 question. I forgot to ask this at that time. Can anyone provide proof that the G26 was painted in the Shadow Keystone scheme? I have seen Circle Keystone and the plain white Keystone, but not Shadow. I have most of the popular PRR books if you want to reference a book. A side photo would be most appreciated. Thanks Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Duane C. Miller" Subject: Re: [PRR] Punxsutawney Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 22:29:57 -0500 There is one section of this line that is still in place and is being used. It extends from McGees Mills in Clearfield County near Mahaffey in a northwest direction for about six miles to a coal tipple at Hillman. It is operated by R.J. Corman out of Clearfield. Duane Miller > --- "Andrews, Ted" wrote: > > > > P.S.: Did the PRR ever go through Punxsutawney? > > As a matter of fact, it did. Started at Bellwood on > the Middle Div., went more-or-less west-north-westward > over Allegheny Mtn., along various stream valleys in > the upper watershed of the West Branch of the > Susquehanna, crossed other PRR lines as it did so, > eventually arrived at McGees Mills, gathered strength > for the climb over Canoe Ridge. > > Descended from same into the valley of Mahoning Creek. > Just before entering Punxsutawney, uttered the Elk Run > Branch which took off (over a timber trestle which > lasted into PC days) to reach Anita (pronounced > a-night-a, not a-neat-a) where there were a couple of > coal mines. (Actually a bit more complex than that, > but I don't have a CT1000 at hand.) > > Main line continued down Mahoning Creek to Horatio, > Pa. , a few miles downstream from Punxsy. I don't know > why. Perhaps PRR > wished to occupy enough of the Mahoning Creek valley > to prevent others from using it to build into PRR > territory. > > As of today, the track(s) in question are gone, but > most of the grade is visible, a bridge over Mahoning > Creek, and US119's bridge over the grade are still > visible. > > Aren't you glad you asked? > > ===== > Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: VVA249@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 01:51:58 EST Subject: [PRR] Hippos... In a message dated 2/2/01 6:28:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, Ted.Andrews@Woolpert.com writes: > All those Hippos working a coal train on grades: were the l-1's ever actually called "Hippos" by the crews - or was this strictly a David P Morgan (Trains magazine) appelation applied, after they were all retired? I believe L-1's were actually called "lolipops" and early GP units "Tackhammers" because of their resemblance to same when seen in side profile. Dick Ross Cleveland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Brass info Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 00:48:51 -0600 Mike--Ahhh Hippos....I would like to add just a little to Gary's very complete run down of I1 models. It was the first run of the PFM's which had the undersized boiler. The walkway/feedwater heater configuration on all the PFM's follow the prototype in the 1930's; for your 56-57 time period you will want to do a little work on the left side walkway. Sunset Models also provided some with long tenders. The feedwater heater on these must have been taken from an S scale catalog; however, correct castings can be had from Bowser. The boiler on these matches the prototype in the shape of the taper much more closely than the PFM. Neither of the above will "run like clocks" right out of the box. The PFM's open frame motor is way outdated. Both could benefit from a good idler gearbox and can motor. The 1980's Key with the Kiesel Style Tender might be of interest to you. Although on the prototype that tender in general was rare, as Gary said, it was most widely used on the Elmira Branch, judging by the photos in Caloroso's book. Like Gary, I have a PFM updated with a can motor (and idler gearbox and details). I also have three of the Sunsets, all with the same idler gearbox and motor as the PFM--and lots of details. And on DCC you can put two on the front of the train and two on the rear.... Have fun! Steve Hoxie PRRT&HS #470 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Bill Lane" Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 20:47:17 -0500 Subject: [PRR-FAX] G 26 (again) Hi All, Thank you to all who replied to my previous G26 question. I forgot to ask this at that time. Can anyone provide proof that the G26 was painted in the Shadow Keystone scheme? I have seen Circle Keystone and the plain white Keystone, but not Shadow. I have most of the popular PRR books if you want to reference a book. A side photo would be most appreciated. Thanks Bill ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-~> eGroups is now Yahoo! Groups Click here for more details http://click.egroups.com/1/11231/1/_/586931/_/981214009/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------_-> "PENNSY Spoken Here" As We Enjoy Sharing Factual Information While Remembering Our PRR Heritage. !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Brass info Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 10:02:23 -0600 In my previous post on this topic I neglected to give the full citation for Bill Caloroso's excellent book. "Pennsylvania Railroad's Elmira Branch", Bill Caloroso, Andover Junction Publications. I recommend it to anyone with PRR interests. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: K-4sDRIVER@webtv.net (Mark Lehman) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 14:35:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: [PRR] Cherry tree & Dixonville RR Check out this site.PRR & NYC http://community-2.webtv.net/K-4sDRIVER/WestSlopebranchline/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: [PRR] Models for Sale on Ebay Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 11:58:02 +1100 Listers, To help in my move from Australia to Tulsa OK I am selling off some brass models on Ebay. The addresses are as follows:- ALCo Models B1 Electric Switcher http://cgi.ebay.com.au/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=553484288 ALCo Models L6 Electric Locomotive http://cgi.ebay.com.au/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=553531950 ALCo Models MP54 & MPB54 EMU's http://cgi.ebay.com.au/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=553555248 ALCo Models O1c Electric Locomotive http://cgi.ebay.com.au/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=553541128 Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: DWa9975062@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 20:14:50 EST Subject: [PRR] Springfield Train Show Listers - Thanks to all of you who stopped and said hello in Springfield. Looking forward to seeing more of you tomorrow. Sorry I couldn't chat longer but it was a busy day. It's good to see Pennsy is alive and well and living in Massachusetts. ;-) Dayna Trainstuff LLC ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "sam cali" Subject: [PRR] Smashboards Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 02:21:33 -0000 >From: bobsin@nac.net > >Bennett said the smashboards are still in place on the NY&LB. > >Any specifics? Offhand I remember movable bridges at the Raritan >River, Morgan, Oceanport, Shark River, and Manasquan; all of >these bridges should still be in place, except possibly Oceanport. >And I bet somebody will remind me of one or two more. Do all of >these still have smashboards? All of the bridges are still in place (River, Morgan, Oceanport, Shark, and Brielle). There are definitely no smashboards on them, NJ Transit upgraded the all of the signals on the entire line. >And what about the Trenton-Camden line, now being rebuilt for the >"light rail" diesel line? There must be a few draws there; are there >smashboards and will they survive the reconstruction? Oh yes, go >way back, there used to be a draw across the canal on the >Princeton Branch, no? > >John Bobsin > The draw on the Princeton Branch crossed the Delaware and Raritan Canal. Today it is a non-movable bridge, and no smashboards. At Dock interlocking on Amtrak, Passaic River bridge in Newark NJ, there are no smashboards. Though there might be a motor or two left. There are still smashboards on the PATH (the old Hudson and Manhattan) tracks at the same location. Sam _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: BBReynolds@aol.com Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 22:02:21 EST Subject: Re: [PRR] Smashboards In a message dated 2/3/2001 9:30:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, njtsam@hotmail.com writes: > The draw on the Princeton Branch crossed the Delaware and Raritan Canal. > Today it is a non-movable bridge, and no smashboards. Look at: http://www.campus.cua.edu/~05beetham/drcanal/drcanal.htm Maybe a half-day with an Asplundh crew, and a whole lot of WD-40, and that bridge could probably be cranked open. Bruce B. Reynolds, Trailing Edge Technologies, Glenside PA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 19:16:44 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] PFtW&C east of Pittsburgh (restarted) Here's what started the question. From Schotter*, page 78: "FORT WAYNE ROUTE IN DANGER "While the original policy of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company was to reach the traffic of the Northwest and Southwest by assisting in the construction of connecting lines leading to the markets of these sections, and not to lease or control their operations, the rapid growth of the western country and the help received from the Pennsylvania Railroad Company placed a number of the roads traversing that territory in strong financial condition, particularly the Pittsburgh, Ft. Wayne and Chicago Railway Company, which extended from Pittsburgh to Chicago, a distance of 468 miles, and which had pledged its business flowing toward the Atlantic seaboard to the Pennsylvania Railroad. After the Fort Wayne Company had reached this favorable position, its Board of Directors decided that it would be preferable to have an independent line to the East, notwithstanding its obligations to the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, and extensive surveys of the country east of Pittsburgh were made to find a suitable route over which it could send its traffic, which was later followed by large advances to a railway company, whose road it was proposed to use as a part of this rival line. During the progress of these negotiations an effort was made by the Erie Railroad Company to absorb not only the Pittsburgh, Ft. Wayne and Chicago Railway Company, but nearly all of the western connections of the Pennsylvania Railroad, which failed of its purpose only from a misapprehension of the law under which they proposed to carry out their plan." I read this to indicate two independent initiatives; one by the Ft. Wayne to extend east of Pittsburgh, the other by the Erie to acquire the Ft. Wayne. Schotter does not state a date for these activities, but immediately follows the paragraph with another reporting the lease of the Ft. Wayne by PRR July 1, 1869. Burgess and Kennedy** have more to say, but I'll spare you. On page 197, following several paragraphs reporting the FT. Wayne's complaints against PRR, say: "Meantime, the Fort Wayne, for its part, had had surveys made for a rival route to the East from Pittsburgh, and had (it was alleged) made money advances for the construction of a rival route." All this appears to have been rumbling about from 1865 to 1869, and culminated in first, the lease of the Ft. Wayne by PRR and finally, the organization of the Pennsylvania Company. It is certainly true that PRR squelched the Ft. Wayne's plan, whatever it may have been. That aside, it may be that there was no suitable way for the Ft. Wayne to acquire a route east of Pittsburgh. That is, "all the good ones are taken". But it does appear that the Ft. Wayne wanted to, separate from the Erie, the South Penn, and Samuel Rea. Regarding the Erie's attempt to take over the Ft. Wayne et al., I'm curious about "failed ... only from a misapprehension of the law..." Wonder what Schotter is talking about there? * The Growth and Development of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company 1846 - 1926 H. W. Schotter, Assistant Treasurer Philadelphia, Pa, December, 1927 ** Centennial History of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company 1846 - 1946 George H. Burgess and Miles C. Kennedy of Coverdale and Colpitts The Pennsylvania Railroad Company Philadelphia, Pa, 1949 ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "dfc PRR 7002" Subject: Re: [PRR] PFtW&C east of Pittsburgh? Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 09:23:57 -0500 >From: robert netzlof >Some time ago my mother, who lived the first 32 years >of her life (starting in 1904) in Vandergrift, Pa, >told me that "...at one time there was talk that >another RR was going to be built along the other side >of the river." "the river" is the Kiskiminitas, "the >other side" is the side not occupied by the former >Western Penna., later PRR Conemaugh Div. > Bob & the list: It would have been very interesting to see where they planned on putting the railroad. The Pittsburgh & Allegheny Valley Railway Company (eventually purchased by West Penn Railways) was organized in 1901 and by 1903, grading for the roadbed was begun between Leechburg & Apollo (the other side of the Kiskiminetas River from Vandergrift) Work was slowed by an injunction obtained by the PRR in 1904 over a contested right of way, but by 1906 trolleys were running regularly between the two Armstrong County towns. They ran until the Saint Patrick's Day Flood of 1936. The abondoned right of way is still quite visible today in places. There was a spur of the PRR, off the low grade extension, through Apollo, but stopped at the lower end of town. I have a detailed map in my recently published book, The Trolley of Armstrong County, Pennsylvania. www.geocities.com/armconband/book.html DF Cramer _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 16:58:23 EST From: LINESWEST@aol.com Subject: Re: [PRR] PFtW&C east of Pittsburgh? Well, Dan, it was little more complicated than that. According to Burgess & Kennedy's Centennial History of the PRR Co. 1847-1947, as 1868 began the Fort Wayne, Little Miami and Columbus, Chicago & Indiana Central, major midwest connecting lines in which the PRR had invested heavily during the 1850s and 1860s, were all behaving far too independently for the Masters on Broad Street. Tension between the PFtW&C and PRR focused on the Fort Wayne's participation in a consortium with the CCC&StL and other regional carriers building a Terre Haute-St. Louis line via Alton, Ill. The PRR pulled out of the partnership to build its own, more direct route further south via Collinsville, Edwardsville and East St. Louis which would use the Eads bridge, the first span across the Mississippi to enter directly into downtown St. Louis. The PFtW&C continued to work with the Big Four on the Alton route. The Little Miami RR during the 1850s established a cozy relationship with the Big Four serving as a bridge line between the Big Four's connections back east via Columbus and the bustling riverport in Cincinnati. Broad Street was beginning to feel a bit neglected. But what set the ball a-rolling was Jay Gould's purchase of the Atlantic Great Western with its line cuttinmg diagonally across Ohio from Lorain County southwest to Cincinnati via Marion, Urbana, Springfield, Dayton & Middletown. At Urbana the AGWRR crossed the CC&IC. The CC&IC Columbus-Chicago crossed the Rubicon when it responded favorably to Gould's overatures intent on securing connections west via Urbana. As the PRR was each of the lines' senior secured creditor, the end was never really in doubt. The CC&IC and PFtW&C were each leased to the PRR for 999 years in 1868. The Little Miami capitulated in 1869 after the PRR purchased the 130-mile Cincinnati & Muskingum Valley running from Zanesville to Morrow on the LMRR 36 miles east of Cincy and declared the intention to develop it as an alternative gateway to the Queen City and the central South. The LMRR was leased to the PRR for 99 years (renewed in 1968) in 1869. changing gears: Dan, a question. In your July 1989 N6B story in the Keystone, where did you locate the figures showing the number of in service N6as and N6bs in 1927, the l930s, the 1940s etc. Tom ? In a message dated Fri, 2 Feb 2001 5:21:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, Dan Cupper writes: << Greetings to Bob, Gregg and the List: Actually, it was the Erie that was getting too friendly with the Fort Wayne, which prompted PRR to settle the matter by buying control. As already noted, the South Pennsylvania was the next attempt to parallel the PRR, in 1883-1885. Gregg, you're correct--1904, is when Gould's Wabash-Pittsburgh Terminal, predecessor of Pittsburgh & West Virginia, came across the Monongahela in defiance of PRR's best efforts to block it. W-PT trackage in the city itself makes an interesting study. The tracks that entered the stub-end "Palace Depor" did indeed stop there, but the freight tracks that paralleled them pointed straight toward Gould's dream of bridging the Allegheny on his way east. That gateway to the east did come about, but in different form--via P&WV's extension to Connellsville and a connection with Western Maryland, which occurred quite late in the scheme of things (February 1931). Around 1910, an electric interurban line proposed 10-hour service between Chicago and New York (Seems simple enough--10 hours of travel at 100 mph!). It completed a few miles of track in Indiana and no more. Finally, in the 1920s -- at a time when the federal government was trying to consolidate railroads because they were overbuilt in the first place, not encourage more construction -- an upstart proposal surfaced. A group of investors proposed building a new, freight-only, reasonably level-grade line across Pennsylvania. Their petition went to an ICC hearing, where PRR, Lackawanna, and others testified against it. The ICC denied permission. But what might have been: According to a friend who once gathered a lot of research on the case, the line intended to use Berkshires resembling those of the Erie. Dan Dan Cupper cupper@worldnet.att.net Psalm 22 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 20:53:16 +0100 From: Ken Meyer Subject: [PRR] Model Railroader index Does anyone know of a website the covers Model Railroader, Railroad Model Craftsmen, index? Ken Meyer, Bel Air, Maryland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Gregg Mahlkov" Subject: [PRR] New N Scale Red Caboose Merchandise Service Cars Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 20:52:17 -0500 Lists: The N Scale Collector convention has just announced its pre-convention set of PRR Merchandise Service cars in the three color schemes. I was intrigued at the use of these on X29's so got out my magnifying glass and discovered that all three cars showe a stencilled Inside Height of 10 ft. 6 in. On an unrebuilt X29????!!!! For the outrageous price they are asking this is really too much. Also note that if their 1947-1950 scheme is correct (I think it is) then Micro-Trains scheme on their 20066 car is fanciful. No wonder they haven't issued a rerun. Does anyone out there know just what PRR car classes were painted in the Merchandise Service scheme. All the ones I have found in protoype shots seem to be 50 footers. Gregg Mahlkov ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Brensdale@aol.com Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 21:09:01 EST Subject: [PRR] Athern Genesis F7A List I was looking at the new Athen Genesis FA7 that my dealer had and notice that the number boards are wrong. They look like the number boards for F3's or F5's. The number for the unit is 9676 and according to P Power 2 on page 232 the number boards should be the larger ones used. Dale ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 21:21:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Athern Genesis F7A Dale, Expert Greg Martin will answer your observation soon I am sure. I don't believe they are wrong though. Some had the early "streamlined" if you will, number boards. I did wish that the Athearn F7 had the Large Boards though. Just because when they release the F3's these locos will have to have the streamlined boards too because they only had that style. It would give a dfferent look if each model had a different style......Gary. Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Graeme Nitz" Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Railroader index Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:44:54 +1100 Ken, Yes MR'S Site http://www.index.mrmag.com/ Graeme Nitz PRRT&HS Member #1313 prr@unite.com.au An Aussie "Slobbering Pennsy Freak" With a touch of Reading. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Wayne S. Betty" Subject: RE: [PRR] Model Railroader index Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 22:03:08 -0500 It is now on Trains.com http://www.index.mrmag.com/ cos Does anyone know of a website the covers Model Railroader, Railroad Model Craftsmen, index? Ken Meyer, Bel Air, Maryland ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Steve Hoxie" Subject: Re: [PRR] Athern Genesis F7A Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 21:11:05 -0600 Dale--Let's keep Greg Martin busy pumping out more stuff. Here is a recent post he made to this list. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; Cc: ; Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 4:37 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: Athearn Genesis PRR EH15a's Jim, Thanks, sorry to be so slow in responding but I have had a ton of mail to catch up on since I got back from the best Model Railroad meet I have been to that was held in Cocoa Beach, FL (just s small plug, but true). Vagel I scanned through the post and will reply in context... << Vagel, The Genesis PRR F 7 is dead nuts on for the group of PRR F7s that it is supposed to represent.>> "Dead nuts" in color scheme and lettering as well as the chosen phase which they represent as EF-15A's. The MOST accurate PRR F-7 created to date! <> Jim's right and we went over this a bit in Cocoa Beach. You can find a photo of this unit in service if you can secure a copy of Jim's article in Prototype Modeler when he did the Athearn/Atlas kitbash in JAN/FEB 1985 issue. I did a lot of research to insure what the Pennsy Modeler got when he shelled out for this loco's were absolutely correct units in every way or I would have bothered. The MRC...why bother, antenna mast or not they are not accurate. << I have copied Greg Martin on this message as he is a Pennsy pro and assisted Athearn in preparation of the Genesis PRR F 7. I will let Greg explain to us the group of PRR F7s that the Genesis model matches. OK Greg . . . you take over from here, but before you do, read Vale's message below. Jim Six>> I'm not a Pro and I didn't get paid. I wanted them correct and they ask me to help so I did. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "Jim Six" Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2001 2:49 AM Subject: Athearn Genesis PRR EH15 (Was Re: Genesis PRR F 7) <> I would broaden my library Vagel. I can't wait unit Withers does their PRR F-unit book. I have seen some of the JD Hahn Photos and I am fortunate to have one to aid a modeling article in the future (thanks Paul). <<1) The number boards on the Athearn release look like the F 3 arrangement (low profile, matching curve contour of the nose, and with marker lamp integrated into the number board assembly, rather than the high profile box number board with separate marker lamp characteristic of the F 7).>> Correct, I call these the "streamlined numberboards," Paul Lubliner calls them the "bullet number board" and Ed Ryan of Athearn calls them the "Long numberboard" and you are correct they are this type. <<2) "Blatt" horn (one front, one rear) characteristic of F 3 series rather than the three chime horn (two front, one rear) characteristic of PRR F 7 series.>> Yes, they are the "Blatt horn" a standard EMD horn as delivered... Remember these are (F-7's) EF-15A's not EF-15's, let there be no doubt! <> I am not sure how the paint scheme would determine the class, but these units have a 2" "PRR BUFF" stripe and lettering and the Keystone mounted with the emblem, not the numbers, high on the door. This was the standard for units shopped after 1951 and match the lettering diagrams to the letter, I worked them up for the model from the originals. << which was a late order for F 3 helper locos, which were ordered in A-B-A sets of 4500 HP locos, rather than the A-B-B-A sets of 6000 HP F 3 road freight locos (EF15) ordered earlier. F-7's would be PRR class EF-15A. The difference between EF15/EF15a and EH15 is the gearing (65 mph for EF and 50 mph for EH). The PRR F 3 helpers (EH15) from EMD featured the stainless steel grills most often considered as spotting features of F-7's, yet with the front and rear "Blatt" horns.>> I see you know some of the history of the PRR F-unit, but there is very definite cut off dates to all this that I will not go into here and some of the units you refer to are the EMD F-5's... Yikes there's that funny phase again! generalizations are okay but... <> OOPS, nope you are wrong. This is one of the first ten EF-15A's Pennsy received from a delivery made in April of 1949, and oh by the by one of the very first F-7's produced by EMD for any railroad. There were 10 Aunits and 10 B-units in this configuration. I think that makes 5 set of 6000hp. Now if you want something a little different then you could change the numbers and add a 2" stripe 14-inches above the main horizontal stripe on each door to represent the "helper" or "SNAPPER" units that Pennsy bought in 4500 HP sets. Oh, yea did I mention that there were EF-15A's delivered just like the units Athearn decided to do? One Problem, the paint used by Athearn is the only correct "Buff" (forget Dulux Gold) marketed to date, but hopefully I will have that fixed in the near future with MICROSCALE. Oh, Yea the Brunswick Green/DGLE is going to be a bear to match with the special "Satin" shine. So we need to wait and see if I can persuade Athearn to recreate a limited run of the "Snapper" units perhaps this Fall. <> Vagel and all I hope this all helps. Buy with confidence but buy. These units are going to be very limited perhaps less than 1000 nation wide. YOU NEED TO GET YOUR ORDERS INTO YOUR DEALERS NOW! Force you dealer to have Athearn take BACK ORDER on these units or it could be a long time before we see them again. There are a lot of roadnames to get into the market and coming back to the beginning make take years. I will venture to guess that within 5 years these first units will sell for 5 times their value. To be fore warned is to be fore armed... Greg Martin ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 22:19:42 -0500 From: Bob Colquitt Subject: Re: [PRR] Model Railroader index Here's the place - has most: http://www.index.mrmag.com/ -=- Bob Ken Meyer wrote: > > Does anyone know of a website the covers Model Railroader, Railroad > Model Craftsmen, index? > Ken Meyer, > Bel Air, Maryland+ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 09:00:05 +0100 From: Burkhard Sanner Subject: [PRR] Nuernberg toy fair Dear fellow listers, these days the main events for modellers in Europe is held - the toy fair in Nuernberg. You may find a constantly updated news list on the homepags of MIBA (a German model raoilroad magazine) under: http://www.miba.de/spezial/spezial/messe01/index.htm US-models are listed; I have seen the first photos of Bachmann´s 0-6-0 saddle tank and the 2-10-0. Have a look and have fun! Burkhard Sanner Germany ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 02:18:53 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Kisala Subject: [PRR] Arrival of January Mainline Modeler Hello list, Have those of you who subscribe to Mainline Modeler received your January 2001 issue yet. The mail is a skosh slow to Korea, but I usually get my issues by the 15th of the cover month (just like when I was in Texas). Thanks in advance! Doug __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 03:55:37 -0800 (PST) From: robert netzlof Subject: [PRR] Partial bibliography of CT1000 et al., 7th revision Thanks for information received to (in alphabetical order) Jim Aldridge, Jeff Feldmeier, Bob Johnson, Pat McKinney, Paul Schopp, Garry Spear, Dave Wartell. Jeff reported a photocopy of a 1906 CT1000, the title page of which says it supercedes the CT1000 of 1905. Editions were printed in: 1946 Supplement to 1945 edition, date not certain 1945 ------------+ 1923 | 1918 | 1915 | 1913 | 1911 Form C. T. 1000 ???? | (???? means "don't know") 1907 | 1906 | 1905 | <--- new information ???? | 1903 | 1902 | 1901 | 1900 ------------+ 1899 Form number not known ???? Form number not known 1895 ------------+ ???? | 1891 Form C. R. 76 ???? | 1888 | 1887 ------------+ ???? Form number not known 1882 ------------+ ???? Form 76 C. R. 1879 ------------+ 1878 Form number not known ???? Questions which are still open: 1. Fill in the gaps (eliminate the ????) 2. Work out what "subset" books were printed in each year. 3. Work out the Region/Grand Division/Division structure for each year in which a CT1000 was printed. (The CT1000's themselves should help in that.) 4. Catalog the "other information" in each year's CT1000/CR76/76CR. (Lists of track scales, tables of car numbers, like that.) ===== Bob Netzlof a/k/a Sweet Old Bob __________________________________________________ Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: Brensdale@aol.com Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 07:47:34 EST Subject: [PRR] Athern Genesis F7A List I did some more research and found out that early F7's had F3's number boards. In PRR Diesel Years I found severely photo's of F7's with small and large number boards they said Pennsy ordered them that way. Thank you for your help. Dale ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Subject: [PRR] Re: N Scale Collector cars (was New N Scale Red Caboose Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 09:39:08 -0500 From: Dennis Rockwell On 4 Feb, "Gregg Mahlkov" wrote: First of all, the convention cars are MT, not Red Caboose. > The N Scale Collector convention has just announced its pre-convention set > of PRR Merchandise Service cars in the three color schemes. I was intrigued > at the use of these on X29's so got out my magnifying glass and discovered > that all three cars showe a stencilled Inside Height of 10 ft. 6 in. On an > unrebuilt X29????!!!! For the outrageous price they are asking this is > really too much. Yep, and the first scheme was never applied to an X29. Apparently the Society decided to ignore accuracy, and took their data from X29b. What class do the cars show? > Also note that if their 1947-1950 scheme is correct (I think it is) then > Micro-Trains scheme on their 20066 car is fanciful. No wonder they haven't > issued a rerun. Yes, PRR's PS-1 cars apparently never received any M/S paint job. > Does anyone out there know just what PRR car classes were painted in the > Merchandise Service scheme. All the ones I have found in protoype shots seem > to be 50 footers. Brady McGuire's article in the Summer 1988 Keystone (generally regarded as gospel) says that the first scheme was only applied to 100 X40b (60'), 300 X41b (50'), and "some" early X29b cars. The X29b bears no real resemblance to the X29, since only the chassis was reused. MT makes a 50' single door car, but I haven't checked its accuracy to an X41. Atlas makes a 60' single door autoparts car, which would require severe alterations. The second scheme was apparently only applied to X29 cars. When the Shadow Keystone scheme was introduced, the third variant was done. McGuire says that it was designed for the X41b, and he includes a picture of an X29 in this scheme. The Microscale decals are apparently correct for the 40' boxcars. You have to rearrange the pieces and replace the data for longer cars. Dennis ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 12:51:37 -0500 From: Andy Miller Subject: [PRR] Springfield show I attended the Springfield show this weekend and the standout item for PRR HO modelers that I saw was the test runs of the DesPlaines P85b's. They are unbelievable. I almost had a "sexual experience" right there in the aisle - very embarrassing! On a serious note. They (and some day Branchline) seem to be elevating plastic passenger cars to the level that freight cars reached with IM, Red Caboose, and P2K. The detail is exquisite. You have to see the underbody, and the window frames. Its all too perfect - now if it was only available for sale. Also of great interest to me was the Trainstuff resin casting of the Wilmington DE PRR Station. They had the main bldg fronts and backs available for sale as separate parts. I bought a bldg front for use in a few years as part of passenger station in the city at the other end of the Tech Model RR Club's new layout. Its not for everyone. It is a BIG bldg. But if you are building a club, and you are the kind of person who thinks the "big" Bachmann city buildings are kind of small (I had to kitbash two of the Ambassador Hotel kits to get the hotel I wanted), then this kit (or the parts) are for you. -- Regards, Andy Miller asmiller@mitre.org =================================================== ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 12:59:48 -0500 From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Question I recently acquired a Sunset ND cabin and want to paint it to reflect a late-1930s cabin car. I've applied a nice base coat of freight car color, but am now stymied by not knowing how far to go in painting the iron work black. Besides underframe, carbody side and end rails, cupola braces, door knob, and the smoke jack, what else should be black? Ladders and platform railing? End sills? Steps? What about the marker lamps? Black or yellow? Any suggestions appreciated, Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Rob Schoenberg" Subject: RE: [PRR] Springfield show Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:17:21 -0500 I have to say the P85's are pretty amazing looking! It's ashame that they've sat for about 7 years but at least they're finally coming out! They're shooting to have them out this summer. I asked about the price and they said they didn't have one yet but it would probably be higher than the $29.95 that the Middle Division originally advertised. I actually found one of the Middle Division's fliers for the cars (scheduled delivery was May 15, 1993.) I also say the Atearn Genesis F7A for the first time and have to say it look great! It's a pain that they don't paint the handrails but... They said that additional numbers should be made when they run out of these but no schedule or promise.. (he did say most likely later this year...) Rob http://prr.railfan.net > -----Original Message----- > From: PRR-Talk@dsop.com [mailto:PRR-Talk@dsop.com]On Behalf Of Andy > Miller > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 12:52 PM > To: PRR; PRR-Modeling@egroups.com > Subject: [PRR] Springfield show > > > I attended the Springfield show this weekend and the standout item for > PRR HO modelers that I saw was the test runs of the DesPlaines P85b's. > They are unbelievable. I almost had a "sexual experience" right there > in the aisle - very embarrassing! On a serious note. They (and some > day Branchline) seem to be elevating plastic passenger cars to the level > that freight cars reached with IM, Red Caboose, and P2K. The detail is > exquisite. You have to see the underbody, and the window frames. Its > all too perfect - now if it was only available for sale. > > Also of great interest to me was the Trainstuff resin casting of the > Wilmington DE PRR Station. They had the main bldg fronts and backs > available for sale as separate parts. I bought a bldg front for use in > a few years as part of passenger station in the city at the other end of > the Tech Model RR Club's new layout. Its not for everyone. It is a > BIG bldg. But if you are building a club, and you are the kind of > person who thinks the "big" Bachmann city buildings are kind of small (I > had to kitbash two of the Ambassador Hotel kits to get the hotel I > wanted), then this kit (or the parts) are for you. > -- > Regards, > > Andy Miller > asmiller@mitre.org > > =================================================== > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to > "listserv@dsop.com". > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Burnley, Charles" Subject: RE: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Question Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:29:51 -0500 Mr. Keller, I might not be totally correct on this for the specific time period, but most photo's and live examples I have seen show the entire car in freight car color. This includes all of your mentioned items, excluding maybe, the door knob (brass), and the smoke-jack which was often silver. The end marker lamps were yellow. Anything that looked black usually was from an accumulation of road dirt & soot, not an application of black paint. Hope this helps. C.Burnley Jr. PRRT&HS #271 -----Original Message----- From: vck@andrew.cmu.edu [mailto:vck@andrew.cmu.edu] Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 1:00 PM To: PRR-talk Subject: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Question I recently acquired a Sunset ND cabin and want to paint it to reflect a late-1930s cabin car. I've applied a nice base coat of freight car color, but am now stymied by not knowing how far to go in painting the iron work black. Besides underframe, carbody side and end rails, cupola braces, door knob, and the smoke jack, what else should be black? Ladders and platform railing? End sills? Steps? What about the marker lamps? Black or yellow? Any suggestions appreciated, Vagel Keller ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: yunz@bellatlantic.net Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 13:40:37 -0500 Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Question I believe the steps, end sill, ladder, supports and railings were all car color. Roof top and cupola roof should be black. Later in time the grab irons and such were painted yellow. The markers should be black also for that time period, assuming they are they correct markers for that time period. The color photo's I found all show this practice, but early photos of these cars are all B & W of course. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: mittner@webtv.net (Gary Mittner) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:08:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: [PRR] Cabin Car Paint Question Vagel, Not sure what time period this car represents but if you can find a photo of the Bobber that was restored at the Strasburg shops, this maybe what you are after. Can't recall it that one is an ND, N4 or ? A color photo of the cabin was shown in a back issue of the Keystone. Say about 6 years or so ago. If I recall, this cabin was painted all Freight Car color. Not sure of the small detailing color, but probably Freght Car color as well. Wasn't there a time when cabin roofs were painted mineral brown, or am I thinking of early P-70's? Anyway, check on that photo. It will help you out....Gary Come visit my PRR Pages.... Photos, Models, Historical Items, Art Work!.......and MY NEW K4s & G5s WEB PAGES>>> http://homepages.go.com/~prrk4 .. http://homepages.go.com/~prrg5 and...... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/THEHOMEOFGARY... http://community.webtv.net/mittner/PENNSYLVANIA ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Join our SPF database at http://kc.pennsyrr.com/forms/spf/index.html. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For assistance with the list "PRR-Talk", send the message "help" to "listserv@dsop.com". !!NEXT MESSAGE!! From: "Andrews, Ted" Subject: RE: [PRR] Athern Genesis F7A Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 15:11:45 -0500 PRR-Gize: BTW, is the Athearn Genesis F-7 made in California or China? Just curious.... Ted -----Original Message----- From: Steve Hoxie [mailto:steveh@dotstar.net] Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2001 10:11 PM To: PRR-talk Subject: Re: [PRR] Athern Genesis F7A Dale--Let's keep Greg Martin busy pumping out more stuff. Here is a recent post he made to this list. Steve Hoxie Pensacola FL ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; ; Cc: ; Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 4:37 AM Subject: [PRR] Re: Athearn Genesis PRR EH15a's Jim, Thanks, sorry to be so slow in responding but I have had a ton of mail to catch up on since I got back from the best Model Railroad meet I have been to that was held in Cocoa Beach, FL (just s small plug, but true). Vagel I scanned through the post and will reply in context... << Vagel, The Genesis PRR F 7 is dead nuts on for the group of PRR F7s that it is supposed to represent.>> "Dead nuts" in color scheme and lettering as well as the chosen phase which they represent as EF-15A's. The MOST accurate PRR F-7 created to date! <